So ... adverbs?

Oh good heavens, my dear - they treated women like children and talked about coming home to cold pots while she was out with her friends - and that wasn't even one of the oldest ones!
You said tunes, I thought, not practical reality. Soooo ... a tune ...? Or was that a lyric from one that I don't recognize? :ohno:

You said tunes, I thought, not practical reality. Soooo ... a tune ...? Or was that a lyric from one that I don't recognize? :ohno:

Lyrics. Doug, if you listen to the lyrics from that era, I can't imagine that you wouldn't notice how things have changed. And I guess I should clarify that it is not so much disrespect - they didn't mean it that way - it was just the times. Seriously, go listen to the lyrics.

Penny, I understand and know that there is general and broad truth in what you are saying, and I was just having fun with you, sort of. The sort of part is that that I don't actually remember any lyrics in the old rock tunes that were sexist ... wholly often overly "teenager in love." But a tune which "put a woman in her place" song hasn't yet come to mind. Rock and roll was about fun, not about adult living and responsibilities, however they may have been defined.

That's probably why I still like it.

I don't have time to go back and find a bunch, right now, but "Evil Ways" was the pots are cold one. Just listen to the lyrics with an ear for that sort of thing, next time - I promise you'll notice the different and extreme changes in cultural views on the role of women and men.

Evil Ways
Santana
Music & Lyrics : Sonny Henry

You've got to change your evil ways, baby,
before I stop lovin' you.
You've got to change, baby,
and every word that I say is true.
You got me runnin' and hidin' all over town,
you got me sneakin' and a-peepin' and runnin' you down.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

When I come home, baby,
my house is dark and my pots are cold.
You're hangin' round, baby,
with Jean and Joan and-a who knows who.
I'm gettin' tried of waitin' and foolin' around,
I'll find somebody who won't make me feel like a clown.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

When I come home, baby,
my house is dark and my pots are cold.
You're hangin' round, baby,
with Jean and Joan and-a who knows who.
I'm gettin' tried of waitin' and foolin' around,
I'll find somebody who won't make me feel like a clown.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

OK ... I don't know that the above lyrics make your point but, as for me, I don't count Santana as a Rock and Roll group, and (though I'm probably in the minority), I never paid much attention to or cared much for them. I'm pretty sure that we understand each other, Penny, and I'm certainly on your side of the gender argument, even if you can't or might have a lot of difficulty proving your point by rock and roll lyrics. IF the Santana lyrics can be said to support your lyric position, I'd be amazed if a counterpoint set of lyrics could not be turned up in the other direction. For an entire genre or period of tunes to be said to be imbalanced gender-wise, a fair analysis would include all within an identified category of tunes and/or lyrics, and not just one or a few.

I don't have time to go back and find a bunch, right now, but "Evil Ways" was the pots are cold one. Just listen to the lyrics with an ear for that sort of thing, next time - I promise you'll notice the different and extreme changes in cultural views on the role of women and men.

Evil Ways
Santana
Music & Lyrics : Sonny Henry

You've got to change your evil ways, baby,
before I stop lovin' you.
You've got to change, baby,
and every word that I say is true.
You got me runnin' and hidin' all over town,
you got me sneakin' and a-peepin' and runnin' you down.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

When I come home, baby,
my house is dark and my pots are cold.
You're hangin' round, baby,
with Jean and Joan and-a who knows who.
I'm gettin' tried of waitin' and foolin' around,
I'll find somebody who won't make me feel like a clown.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

When I come home, baby,
my house is dark and my pots are cold.
You're hangin' round, baby,
with Jean and Joan and-a who knows who.
I'm gettin' tried of waitin' and foolin' around,
I'll find somebody who won't make me feel like a clown.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.
Is this not a song about jealousy?

Is this not a song about jealousy?

I got that she was out with her friends and he thought she should be home cooking. And maybe she was out fooling around - no evidence of that mentioned - he didn't trust her out of his sight.

OK ... I don't know that the above lyrics make your point but, as for me, I don't count Santana as a Rock and Roll group, and (though I'm probably in the minority), I never paid much attention to or cared much for them. I'm pretty sure that we understand each other, Penny, and I'm certainly on your side of the gender argument, even if you can't or might have a lot of difficulty proving your point by rock and roll lyrics. IF the Santana lyrics can be said to support your lyric position, I'd be amazed if a counterpoint set of lyrics could not be turned up in the other direction. For an entire genre or period of tunes to be said to be imbalanced gender-wise, a fair analysis would include all within an identified category of tunes and/or lyrics, and not just one or a few.

Well - all I can say is to listen to the lyrics of not just the rock songs but the rock and roll from the fifties and sixties. The whole genre treats women as little girls and quite a few talk about needing to be what their man wants them to be.

I got that she was out with her friends and he thought she should be home cooking. And maybe she was out fooling around - no evidence of that mentioned - he didn't trust her out of his sight.The way I read it he was so obsessed with and jealous of her that he was stalking her.

Then he's warning her that he's going to quit loving her unless she changes. She's probably thinking "about time" to that if he had actually had a chance to say it to her which he probably didn't.

And it should be noted that he accepts no responsibility but blames her entirely in truly antisocial personality disorder fashion.

But that's just the way I see it.

Check out the lyrics to the rap and hip-hop songs of today and make the comparison.

Check out the lyrics to the rap and hip-hop songs of today and make the comparison.
Penny wouldn't like that comparison, I don't think. The rap/hip hop stuff gets pretty hard on just about everyone, including the ladies.

Penny wouldn't like that comparison, I don't think. The rap/hip hop stuff gets pretty hard on just about everyone, including the ladies.

The rap is awful. Someone should whip out a can of whoop ass on the boys singing that crap.

The way I read it he was so obsessed with and jealous of her that he was stalking her.

Then he's warning her that he's going to quit loving her unless she changes. She's probably thinking "about time" to that if he had actually had a chance to say it to her which he probably didn't.

And it should be noted that he accepts no responsibility but blames her entirely in truly antisocial personality disorder fashion.

But that's just the way I see it.

I agree he accepts no responsibility but also recall that at that time, being out with her friends instead of home cooking was enough "evidence" that she was no good. "Evil ways," as is were.

I agree he accepts no responsibility but also recall that at that time, being out with her friends instead of home cooking was enough "evidence" that she was no good. "Evil ways," as is were.I think you are interpreting "my house is dark and my pots are cold" to mean that she wasn't home cooking.

I don't necessarily see that meaning. I took it to simply mean that his home was empty and uninviting, more along the lines of absent hearth fire in an even older time.

Not that you aren't correct about the changing gender roles of the time (1968-1969) but I think it is a pretty good stretch to conclude that among her evil ways was not cooking. For all we know from the song she was cooking up a storm with her friends.

I was newly married then and I do know my wife and her friends of that time were struggling with juggling gender roles. There was a lot of pressure on women of that time that probably is still not sufficiently recognized. It was a tumultuous time on so many fronts.

I was surprised to read in the Wiki article about the song that it was about a girl who was spiteful. That seems pretty forced to me.

I think growing up in that era as a female probably makes me more sensitive about the lyrics - my experience is that a lot of men don't even hear them and don't interpret them the way women might. It comes down to having the experience of being women in a "man's" world and things that were galling to us weren't even on their radar. I am not sure why you would think pots being cold has any meaning other than that she is not home cooking - why else would he say that? He can warm the darn hearth, himself if that is what he wanted. Face it, cooking went with being a woman/wife - these days it doesn't but it sure did in those days. I woman who didn't cook for her man was not doing her job. In fact, my father-in-law (age 85) still expects me to cook every evening and he has yet to see me pick up a pot or pan. He doesn't hold it against me but is always suprised. It was just the way he was raised.

When I first started practicing law in the early/mid nineties, there was a cut off of chauvanism with male lawyers that was utterly striking. Say, age 65 or older, they treated the women lawyers like secretaries and expected us to make and fetch the coffee. It was unreal. They'd call us Honey, pat waitresses (it was embarassing) and direct us into nonlitigation areas - perhaps with kids or other domestic issues. Men under age, say, 58, were completely different and treated us like equals. The old breed has all but died out, retired or finally have enough sense to keep their mouths shut. They didn't mean anything by it but it was a definite change.

For that matter, women of my mother's era often acted like little bunnies, fluffy and living for male attention and approval. I don't mean they were hussys but I just saw many women who came of age post WWII but before the sixties that seemed to define themselves by being soft and attractive. Contrast that with the women of the thirties and forties. THOSE were women who actually "did" things and blazed trails without asking for special favors and asking people to make allowances for their femininity. Of course, in those days, women had to choose between being wives and mothers and being career women (pre reliable birth control).

I think you are interpreting "my house is dark and my pots are cold" to mean that she wasn't home cooking.

I don't necessarily see that meaning. I took it to simply mean that his home was empty and uninviting, more along the lines of absent hearth fire in an even older time.

Not that you aren't correct about the changing gender roles of the time (1968-1969) but I think it is a pretty good stretch to conclude that among her evil ways was not cooking. For all we know from the song she was cooking up a storm with her friends.

I was newly married then and I do know my wife and her friends of that time were struggling with juggling gender roles. There was a lot of pressure on women of that time that probably is still not sufficiently recognized. It was a tumultuous time on so many fronts.

I was surprised to read in the Wiki article about the song that it was about a girl who was spiteful. That seems pretty forced to me.

That is because Wiki is not a reliable source for information. Either one of us can post what we want on Wiki. I'm not saying that your assumption is not valid.

* * * It was just the way he was raised.

When I first started practicing law in the early/mid nineties * * *

* * *They'd call us Honey, pat waitresses * * * The old breed has all but died out, retired or finally have enough sense to keep their mouths shut. They didn't mean anything by it but it was a definite change. * * * .
Penny, no disrespect, but I think that you're looking at this whole non-related discussion to Jim Crow laws through subjective and myopic glasses ... and not that there isn't merit to what you are saying ... but ...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/misc/doug_1968s.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/misc/doug_1968.jpg)I was admitted to the Oklahoma bar in 1968 at age 25 following graduation from OU law school, when, of course, I was a much younger and doubtless a more handsome man than I am today, more than 40 years later. Heck, then, I was just a baby. My weight was definitely a ton less at that time, and, gawd, in this picture from the 1968 school album, I still had relatively dark brown hair, and a good bit of it, on my head, and no white fur was on my face. The highest GPA in my class was by set by Prudence Little. Her husband, Dan, was 10th, as I recall. They are Madill lawyers, or at least they were last time I looked. David Boren was also in that class. Those in my graduating class, as far as I know and certainly not me, had no sense of gender differences between lawyer quality matters. An elder lady who had late-in-life come back to school and who also graduated that year was well-respected and regarded graduated that year as well. Our class 1968 class was about 1/3 women, if memory serves correctly.

There is also truth to what you said about some older (than me) lawyers not having the same respect and regard for women lawyers as opposed to men. I don't recall the year right now, but I do recall a judicial election in which Judge Jack Parr was opposed by Melinda Monnet. Her campaign heavily focused on the gender issue (based upon Parr's unequal treatment of men/women lawyers) quite heavily, and she was elected. Let me look that up real quickly ... OK, having looked in the Oklahoman archives, that was in 1990 when she was only 29 years old ... probably before you were admitted to the bar. Unfortunately, as it developed, she had other problems than gender and it did not all end well for her, but that wasn't related to her gender.

About your, "They'd call us Honey," comment. My wife is older than me and is director of the School of Art at OU in Norman. She commonly and unhesitatingly refers to persons, of whatever gender, as "Honey." She even deigns to call me that from time to time. Does that make her a sexist-in-reverse? If you think that, it is best that you have that discussion with her and not me.

All I'm saying, Penny, is that your perspective and objectivity is possibly blurred by your subjective point of view and that you might need to lighten up a bit about how you view rock and roll tunes as well as gender attitudes in the lawyer work place. Sure, there is a basis for what you say, generally -- but I'm still not persuaded about rock and roll tunes and lyrics ... you've not proved your case, in my estimation. But, as to the legal environment, you stretch your case a bit too far, in my opinion. Not that I've not wanted to pat some (not all) female lawyers on their butts, but haven't as yet succumbed to the temptation ... but that's just me, an old geezer, who always enjoys having a case with a woman adversary. My bad. I'm just a guy. But old bad guys get by with quite a lot, just because they are old and harmless. Hoo-ahh!

Check out my post and do the math. I'd say the ones who gave us the most trouble were born before WWII. That seems to be the cutting off point in terms of attitudes. Baby boomers were no real trouble.

Doug, I am willing to bet you never stood before the bar and had the judge refer to you as "little lady." I have, a couple of times - in full view of other members of the bar and clients. In job interviews, I've had a male partner ask me if I thought I could stand up to a male litigator. That was in 1993. Two friends of mine were asked if they were planning on having children in the next five years. One was asked if she used a reliable birthcontrol. That was in 1990. I could mention more but like I said, it was primarily the guys born before the war that had the sexist attitudes.

As for the lady who called everyone honey - I do too. But I don't call one gender honey and treat the other more formally/professionally. There's the difference.

Doug, I don't want want to give you the wrong impression about my opinion of rock and roll lyrics. I enjoy them, don't take offense, and my point was that they demonstrated a swift change in attitudes towards women. If you don't see that, fine. I certainly do and honestly can't imagine how that is going over your head.

Doug, I am willing to bet you never stood before the bar and had the judge refer to you as "little lady." ***
It only happened once.

As for your experiences about "little lady," those are precisely the kinds of things that probably shape and narrow your objectivity ... all valid experiences, but nonetheless narrowing your ability or willingness to be "above it all" and be more objective. I mean, IF you were not a woman, and IF you were a guy living through the same period, would you be writing the same things? All I'm saying is that your bias is showing. Of course, perhaps mine is, too.

It only happened once.

I'd have paid GOOD Money to have seen that. Oops....Sorry Doug I know your Gender and I know Penny's ... But, that would have been hilarious...to me...I better get out of this judicial debate and go back to running a Dime Store.....I still remember (changing the subject) the old Nickle and Dime stores throughout the country.

Doug, I am willing to bet you never stood before the bar and had the judge refer to you as "little lady." ***

It only happened once.

I'd have paid GOOD Money to have seen that. Oops....Sorry Doug I know your Gender and I know Penny's ... But, that would have been hilarious...to me...I better get out of this judicial debate and go back to running a Dime Store.....I still remember (changing the subject) the old Nickle and Dime stores throughout the country.
:ohno: :dizzy::gossip: Are we having fun yet?

Rock and roll is here to stay!

It only happened once.

As for your experiences about "little lady," those are precisely the kinds of things that probably shape and narrow your objectivity ... all valid experiences, but nonetheless narrowing your ability or willingness to be "above it all" and be more objective. I mean, IF you were not a woman, and IF you were a guy living through the same period, would you be writing the same things? All I'm saying is that your bias is showing. Of course, perhaps mine is, too.

Doug, just what is is that you think I can't be objective about? My whole premise has been that things have changed dramatically regarding women than they used to be back in the fifties and sixties. Are you trying to argue that things are pretty much the same?

Was it James Brown who sang "It's a Mannnnnnnnnnn's World" !!! Honey's, Either one of yall' needs to get a sex change or lighten up, HELL's BELL"s!!

No, this is keeping things interesting......

Was it James Brown who sang "It's a Mannnnnnnnnnn's World" !!! Honey's, Either one of yall' needs to get a sex change or lighten up, HELL's BELL"s!!

Spoken like a true man!! hahahahaha!!

Fortunately, I really like men, even though I consider myself to be a feminist.

Spoken like a true man!! hahahahaha!!

Fortunately, I really like men, even though I consider myself to be a feminist.

Your also a good sport with a good sense of humor and Doug as welll!!! Being the Independent-Fence Walking Republicrat that I am, I agree with both of you!! LOL !!!

Your also a good sport with a good sense of humor and Doug as welll!!! Being the Independent-Fence Walking Republicrat that I am, I agree with both of you!! LOL !!!
Well, Penny (although she is clearly substantially undervaluing herself ... she is certainly worth at least a quarter) and I can certainly agree about that.

I think the discussion certainly reveals how difficult it is to understand and appreciate the feelings of those who have experienced discrimination. That is undoubtedly true whether the discrimination is due to race or gender or something else.

Gender discrimination in a peculiar way is even more complex than racial because there is the obvious physical difference but there is also the cultural role bias.

I know in my particular age group women felt pressure from both the emerging culture and the one preceding. I think those a few years older were more accepting of the previous roles and those a few years younger were more able to apprehend the new freedom. But those in the transition felt pressure and guilt regardless.

It certainly is worth remembering that the 15th amendment preceded the 19th by 50 years.

I think the discussion certainly reveals how difficult it is to understand and appreciate the feelings of those who have experienced discrimination. That is undoubtedly true whether the discrimination is due to race or gender or something else.

Gender discrimination in a peculiar way is even more complex than racial because there is the obvious physical difference but there is also the cultural role bias.

I know in my particular age group women felt pressure from both the emerging culture and the one preceding. I think those a few years older were more accepting of the previous roles and those a few years younger were more able to apprehend the new freedom. But those in the transition felt pressure and guilt regardless.

It certainly is worth remembering that the 15th amendment preceded the 19th by 50 years.

Yup. Hell, I am just praying for menopause so I can get out of the whole situation and be an old granny!

Was it James Brown who sang "It's a Mannnnnnnnnnn's World" !!! Honey's, Either one of yall' needs to get a sex change or lighten up, HELL's BELL"s!!
I'm seeing the doctor on Monday. My only real concerns are that she'll slap me up on my face and tell me, "Ha ha. Too late you stupid old mother _ucker. You are doomed to live the remnant of your life in the same pathetic shell of a form that you presently have," adding, "Now, put on these ..." Uh oh. I've gone too far. We won't get more particular about that just now.

I'm seeing the doctor on Monday. My only real concerns are that she'll slap me up on my face and tell me, "Ha ha. Too late you stupid old mother _ucker. You are doomed to live the remnant of your life in the same pathetic shell of a form that you presently have," adding, "Now, put on these ..." Uh oh. I've gone too far. We won't get more particular about that just now.

Sucks to get old but the alternative is worse...

Sucks to get old but the alternative is worse...
One would hope.

At least those old timers aren't pinching my butt, anymore!!! <vbg>

Sigh....

Doug, just what is is that you think I can't be objective about? My whole premise has been that things have changed dramatically regarding women than they used to be back in the fifties and sixties. Are you trying to argue that things are pretty much the same?
When were you born, Penny? Do you have any experience with the 50s and 60s? But, no, I'm not arguing that things are the same, they are not and they are much better all around. I'm simply challenging your objectivity. Now, about pinching your butt, as much as I would like to, you'd probably slap the **** out of me. How about this: Next southsiders meeting that we both attend, how about we give each other a big hug, instead? Maybe I'll get lucky.

Are you liking this, Voyer Generals64?

I am.

By the way, Penny, did you have great conversations like this when you lived back east, before you moved back to Oklahoma City? Not.

When were you born, Penny? Do you have any experience with the 50s and 60s? But, no, I'm not arguing that things are the same, they are not and they are much better all around. I'm simply challenging your objectivity.

1958. I wasn't a woman in the fifties and sixties and can only go with what I was taught and observed. The lyrics of the songs mirror exactly how I was raised and all my girlfriends were raised. Example - in my home, we were a bit progressive in that we expected the girls AND the boys to go to college. But the girls only had to go two years, "in case something happens to your husband." Girls were supposed to take typing classes. I was quite the rebel when I refused to do it.
I don't think most men can really understand what it is like to be an 8 year old girl (who really believed in god) taught that god made MAN and women were an afterthought created to be his companion. Or what it is like to have the masculine pronouns be the standard. Or what it is like to find out that if you beat the boys at chess or arm wrestling when you are 11 (like you've been doing for years) they think you are weird (and the girls who dumb it down get all the attention and are considered normal). We didn't have girls' baseball teams (with the cool uniforms) because if the ball hit you in the chest, it could cause cancer. So for the first 8 years of our lives, we played sandlot baseball with the boys, then were supposed to sit on the sidelines and cheer while they put on uniforms and got the glory. I recall when they had the big whooptedo when Disney made one of the cartoon characters actually do something besides be rescued. Don't get me wrong, I like men and love the differences between the sexes. But as a young girl, it was painful to change into a woman and suddenly be deemed duller, less important and considered weird if you weren't passive and falling on every word of some guy who is dumb as a rock but still "assumed" to be smarter until you proved otherwise. It was a tough world back when assumptions were made about your intelligence and aptitude based on gender. And it isn't easy to be a smart kid automatically assumed to be more suited to fetching coffee than arguing a case in court. Thank god things have changed.

Penny, you just made my point about objectivity.

And I do understand what you are saying. Between marriages (1981-1984) I visited my mom more than I had before. She lived in Lawton, and on one visit, she was recounting her great experiences as a young girl when attending Trinity College for 2 years in Waxachaie, Texas. Her family was poor and a relative who was also a teacher there was providing her room and board. This would have been in the late 1920s or early 1930s, I think. And, after talking about those good times, she then shifted gears and started talking about something else. I said, "Wait, you didn't finish the story. What happened about Waxachaie?" I asked. She said, "Well, that (which would have been her junior year) was when it was time for Carrol (her younger brother) to go to college," she said matter of factly and without any sign of emotion. He simply took her place there (family economics could only afford to send one child to college), and she again started talking about something else. I again said, "Stop! Go back to the story. Weren't you angry and upset about that?" and she nonchalantly passed it off and said no, not at all. That's just the way things were back then, she said. So, she came back home (to Clinton), did some stuff there and came to marry my father in the early 1930s. He was an alcoholic and mistreated her badly (I am told) and they divorced when I was 2 or 3 years old. But, in talking with her about her younger years at Trinity College, that was the time that her eyes had a special sparkle and it was clearly the best time of her life, at least as far as I could see or know. But, try as I did, I was unable to drag out of her any sense of anger, regret, resentment or anything in that line of things about that time being cut short because of her gender which it clearly was. I wondered long and hard about that ... why no anger? Was she being honest in her recollections or was she masking something deeply hidden that she refused to show? I'll never know, and I'm sure that I'll never completely understand if she was being completely candid with me when recounting those days of joy that were cut short because she was a woman and not a man ... how could she not have been angry or at least sad?

Of course, my 1st wife and I raised our daughter (and son) quite differently and I am quite proud of her and her life which took a different course than my mother's did. This isn't abut my son, but I am quite proud of him as well.

Penny, I do understand what you are saying.

At least those old timers aren't pinching my butt, anymore!!! <vbg>

Sigh....

I'll fix that!!:bright_id

Doug, I think that "That's just the way things were..." attitude is exactly what I recall about the women a few years older than my group. That level of acceptance made things a whole lot easier at least in certain, narrow terms.

Probably there wasn't a specific time when this happened everywhere. So there's probably a much broader range of ages in the transitional group than I've realized.

Not that this isn't painting with too broad a brush because there were plenty of exceptions.

Probably something similar happened with race and the impact of World War II. Experiencing legal integration undoubtedly makes it difficult to willingly reenter the world of discrimination.

If I had to guess, I'd say she probably was disappointed but not resentful. Your reality is your reality. Just the way it is. I can talk about the boys getting to play ball with the neat uniforms while the girls didn't but it never crossed my mind that there was anything unfair about that and I didn't resent it. It wasn't until later that I thought about how that shaped perceptions. And on another point, I wouldn't have expected women to be drafted, either. But young men being drafted was going on during Vietnam and many of those men DIED - they didn't just have to skip little league. I was passionately opposed to the draft but the notion of women not being drafted or the fairness/unfairness of that wasn't even on my radar. For that matter, to this day, I find it much easier to accept men working with wives staying home than the other way around. I am pretty much old school, at least compared to the kids, including my own.

And Doug, I'll take that hug but this conversation hasn't been uncomfortable, for me, anyway. I trust your judgment and your fairness. Very little you could say on the message board would sidestep the basic premise that you are a stand up, considerate guy.

But now, Papa - You're a cutie pie but - oh my, no, no!! <vbg>

Thanks, Penny. Yes, perspective and blinders do matter. Back to the topic which started this whole thread, Jim Crow laws in Oklahoma City. I was pretty much unaware of the racial segregation problems going on in Oklahoma when I was a high school student in Lawton (I'm a LHS 1961 grad). My best friend was an Indian and I didn't even know it early on (with blonde hair, why should I?), Lawton's schools had been integrated for quite some time, doubtless due to requirements associated with getting military federal impact funding due to Ft. Sill for public schools. At the time, there was only one main and large high school, Lawton High, home of the Wolverines ... even though a much smaller, a black high school, did exit even though most blacks attended Lawton High. It was a huge high school with over 2100 students in three grades, and our graduating class was something like 650-750, I don't recall exactly. Heck, I was a young fellow dreaming about and wanting chicks, cool cars (I had no car at all, cool or otherwise), enjoying my school activities (band and debate), loving rock and roll, knocking around with buds in the Wichita mountains, and even getting a soldier from Ft. Sill to slip into a liquor store and get a bottle of cherry sloe gin on special occasions. Yes, I know how stupid the choice makes me sound, but since we're being honest here it's a confession that I must regrettably make. Racial problems were the furthest thing from my mind. The best player on our football team the year I graduated was a black young man named Hartwell Menifee, if I'm spelling his name correctly. I explained this a little in the introductory post to my Deep Deuce series called http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2006/11/deep-deuce-prologue.html]Deep Deuce Prologue.

At the end of that article, I said,




Stepping aside from non-personal evidence, I'll add this personal story. I was an Oklahoma State University debater from 1961-1965, a freshman in 1961-62. Toward the end of that school year, our Coach, Fred Tewell (father of the Edmond golfer Doug Tewell) intended to treat us to a nice dinner and night out in Oklahoma City. He had a place in mind, a great steak house at what is now at the south end of Frontier City ... the name alludes me today. Whatever its name, we parked outside and went in to be seated.

One (excellent) member of our debate team was a squeaky-clean young Black man, and he naturally entered the restaurant with the rest of us. On entry, and seeing our Black colleague, we were told that Blacks would not be served but that the rest of us were welcome.

In my lifetime, I cannot remember a time that I have experienced greater embarrassment or shame because of the color of my skin.

We left and drove into Oklahoma City and had great food at the old Sussy's Restaurant on Classen Boulevard. But, there is no way that this occasion will ever be a pleasant memory – it is as ugly as it is real – and Black people living in Oklahoma City from 1889 through the 1960's-1970's experienced this same thing and much worse on a daily basis.

While experiencing a walk through the history of this area [Deep Deuce], it is right to remember why the area existed in the first place - Blacks had no place else to go.

End of prologue. If you Black guys and gals want to welcome me as a White guy into your communion to share your pride, I'd be proud. But, I'll be and am proud of you, even if you don't.
That story represented the end of my innocence, at least, that part of it.

I know we tease and joke on this thread a lot. Many of us have become friends outside of OKCtalk.....I'm proud to know all of you (questionable about PapaOU) but at what point do we as citizens of Oklahoma and The United States of America turn our head against the racial line?....I'm not as learned as Doug or Pennyquilts in the laws of the land but, there are as many Non people of Color as there are people of color that I don't actually want to associate with.....You know, it's kinda funny how color is always thrown when someone can benefit from it. However, Black, White, Brown are really Mute colors in the Sprectrum. When you look at a Rainbow, you don't see any of those colors in the sky.....Be it as much as my faith is very important to me and to my family I have to believe that God did that intentionally hoping we were all "Smart" enough to remain people of God.......O.K. I promise not to get on the old high horse so I'll be quiet.
However, thank God for people like, George Washington Carver, Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, and Ms. Clara Luper. Some are pretty radical but look how they changed the world......Shoot, Aunt Jemima was even discovered in our Great City......How many pictures have people seen of her over the years????
Color and Gender should stop and be recognized only if needed.......I always wondered why Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and that group have been offended when they would be called "Colored" and the they run to their own named political orginization....NAACP....the CP stands for "Colored People"....hmmmmmmmm?

I don't have an email address...don't worry about sending me one.....

What a thoughtful post for an old guy from the south side WHO .... WHAT??? .... doesn't have an email address??? Chuckle ...

Like anything else, racial, gender, or any other matter can be blown way out of proportion, too. For the life of me, I guess that I'm too damn dumb to see how Little Black Sambo is a bigoted story ... I loved it as a kid. Ditto Uncle Remus and Brer Rabbit ... and I like Florida State's tomahawk chop ... and I used to like OU's Little Red before he was killed by ... well-intentioned Native Americans. Freaky Friday is possible to occur on any topic whether it's a serious topic or not. And ... I DO have an email address.

I wasn't aware that Aunt Jemima had Oklahoma City roots. Were you kidding?

What a thoughtful post for an old guy from the south side WHO .... WHAT??? .... doesn't have an email address??? Chuckle ...

Like anything else, racial, gender, or any other matter can be blown way out of proportion, too. For the life of me, I guess that I'm too damn dumb to see how Little Black Sambo is a bigoted story ... I loved it as a kid. Ditto Uncle Remus and Brer Rabbit ... and I like Florida State's tomahawk chop ... and I used to like OU's Little Red before he was killed by ... well-intentioned Native Americans. Freaky Friday is possible to occur on any topic whether it's a serious topic or not. And ... I DO have an email address.

I wasn't aware that Aunt Jemima had Oklahoma City roots. Were you kidding?

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Nope, not kidding....I read a story about her and some OKC history...she lived in what we call the Deep Deuce area. Was paid (hope memory is right) $10.00 for her picture to be used in an advertising campaign. Supposedly, the rest is history......Thought about you last night at the fair....there was a place with old pictures of Oklahoma and I saw one of Doe Doe Park.....Most people around here don't know what I'm talking about....Hmmmmm let them wonder.....See you tomorrow.....
Oh yeah, you know me well enough that I'm politically driven and try my best to stay away from any kind of Politics. But, since we're on a history thread about the Jim Crow situation tell me why the leaders of the Black community always want to be the "Loudest" and the most controversial?....I promise you 99 out of 100 have NEVER be to Africa....Why do they call themselves "African-American"???? You know, I'm kinda proud of being an "Okie"...I could have come from Texas....then what would I be???? My ancestry goes back to the Chickasaw Nation.....one one side and the Southeastern Hills of Oklahoma on the other....Does that make me a "Southeastern Okie-American Native from Moore"?.....Never mind, I'm proud to be an "Okie" and to live in this great state with relationships with one the best nation on earth.......O.K. raise the flags and begin to sing "America"....but, I really mean it.....Texas?????oh yeah, for PapaOU....."Hook em Horns".................................

Ahhh ... Doe Doe Park ... I remember it well ... sunning on the grassy area while watching for good looking babes and hearing Little Richard blasting out of the loudspeakers. The suntan lotion of my youthful peers (me included) was a combo of baby oil and iodine. Probably why I'm short and fat and have so little (even if remarkably distinctive) hair today.

Uh, oh ... Penny, is what I just said OK?

Ahhh ... Doe Doe Park ... I remember it well ... sunning on the grassy area while watching for good looking babes and hearing Little Richard blasting out of the loudspeakers. The suntan lotion of my youthful peers (me included) was a combo of baby oil and iodine. Probably why I'm short and fat and have so little (even if remarkably distinctive) hair today.

Uh, oh ... Penny, is what I just said OK?

Absolutely. Glory days, baby!! One of the best parts about getting older is you can say anything and people just shake their head if offended. But I'm certainly not offended. I wish a lot of the good old days of the feminine mystique would come back. The thrill of the chase was, well, a thrill. And to a certain extent, took a lot of the pressure off since chances are, things weren't going to go anywhere, anyway.

Gawd I like it when you talk dirty. Penny, are you going to make the southsider's meeting tomorrow at Coit's on South Wetern? I expect to, though I might be a little late.

Gawd I like it when you talk dirty. Penny, are you going to make the southsider's meeting tomorrow at Coit's on South Wetern? I expect to, though I might be a little late.

I might but can't commit. Husband is getting back to town, tonight, from a short trip back to DC and I'll have to see if he is in the mindset to want his family around him where he can see them, or if he is stressed out from the travel and would just rather be left alone to go putter in his workshop.

Hope springs eternal.

I might but can't commit. Husband is getting back to town, tonight, from a short trip back to DC and I'll have to see if he is in the mindset to want his family around him where he can see them, or if he is stressed out from the travel and would just rather be left alone to go putter in his workshop.

Bring him with you....we can really ruin his day for him....

Bring him with you....we can really ruin his day for him....

They cancelled his stupid flight - again. Grrr. I am not kidding, he can't make a simply flight from here to DC and back without a flight being cancelled or missing a connection. He is driving home. Grrr. I once spent three days in DFW airport when they cancelled one of my flights. The only thing worse is O'Hare.

I just heard this John Anderson song, Cold Coffee and Hot Beer, and it made me think of this thread while grinning very, very big:


Cold coffee and hot beer
That's kinda how things are around here
We used to have such a happy home
But now we don't because she is gone
Can't get a hug nor a kiss around here
Just cold coffee and hot beer

Beer cans and cigarette butts
A sink full of dirty coffee cups
Nothin' left for me to do
But sit alone and sing the blues
It's a cryin' shame that she ain't here
Kinda like cold coffee and hot beer

Wish I could change things all around
I'd turn my world upside down
Instead of gone then she'd he here
And I'd have hot coffee and ice cold beer y'all

The lights are out and rent's past due
I really missed her paycheck too
Maybe I should go downtown
Get me a job and settle down
Then again I reckon that I'll just sit here
With my cold coffee and hot beer

Wish I could change things all around
I'd turn my world upside down
Instead of gone then she'd he here
And I'd have hot coffee and ice cold beer y'all