Vermont is exploring making "sexting" legal. Vermont Lawmakers Look To Legalize Teen 'Sexting' - wcbstv.com (http://wcbstv.com/technology/sexting.vermont.teens.2.983956.html)

Is this harmless fun between kids or should there be penalties? My feeling is that the kids in the age range who are doing this are old enough to know right from wrong. I don't think they ought to be labeled for life as sex offenders, but I do think there ought to be consequences. I'm just not sure what those consequences ought to be.

Consequences should be a monetary penalty. Sure, you can send your nude pic to your boyfriend or girlfriend...but sticking a $250 penalty on it will discourage teenagers.

Registering the teen as a sex offender just because they're distributing underaged nude pics of themselves is absolutely retarded.

Make it hurt, but non life-altering.

What ought to happen is they lose their cell phone for a year or so, but you can't really legislate that. lol What about making the penalty related to their driver's license? Revoke it for 6 months maybe...or make them wait an extra year if they're too young to drive yet?

Vermont is exploring making "sexting" legal. Vermont Lawmakers Look To Legalize Teen 'Sexting' - wcbstv.com (http://wcbstv.com/technology/sexting.vermont.teens.2.983956.html)

Is this harmless fun between kids or should there be penalties? My feeling is that the kids in the age range who are doing this are old enough to know right from wrong. I don't think they ought to be labeled for life as sex offenders, but I do think there ought to be consequences. I'm just not sure what those consequences ought to be.

Whatever the consequences are they should be the kid and their parents. Teen sex lives are no business of the state.

Whatever the consequences are they should be the kid and their parents. Teen sex lives are no business of the state.

Respectfully, I disagree. First of all, state governments have jurisdiction regarding minors and sexual acts, hence each forming its own statutes outlining things like "age of consent" and the different elements of sexual crimes and their degrees. However, the issue here isn't really a teenager's sex life at all. The problem of focus is child pornography, which is a federal offense despite any state's "age of consent". Possession of child pornography is illegal, even for minors of the same age or younger as the individual(s) displayed in the piece. I'm not advocating a particular punishment because I don't know what the best answer is to this issue. However, possession of child pornography is just as illegal as possession of cocaine, regardless of age.

If this was in 'Politics & Current Events', Mid and Mallen would be all over this one.

I think it should be illegal but that teens should be eligible to expunged from their record if they stay on good behavior for, say, a year.

I don't dispute that they are old enough to know right from wrong but I do believe they frequently lack the impulse control and judgment to use their brain. Because of that, and because there is frequently major fallout, I think it should continue to be illegal as a tool to let them know (and give their folks ammunition) that they can't be doing something so stupid.

How are they getting caught by the state is what I don't understand, unless they are being reported? I noticed GMA did a big segment on this this morning.

If this was in 'Politics & Current Events', Mid and Mallen would be all over this one.

I'm here. :kicking:

I agree with most posts in this thread. Make it hurt, not life-altering.

How are they getting caught by the state is what I don't understand, unless they are being reported? I noticed GMA did a big segment on this this morning.

Good question.

Respectfully, I disagree. First of all, state governments have jurisdiction regarding minors and sexual acts, hence each forming its own statutes outlining things like "age of consent" and the different elements of sexual crimes and their degrees. However, the issue here isn't really a teenager's sex life at all. The problem of focus is child pornography, which is a federal offense despite any state's "age of consent". Possession of child pornography is illegal, even for minors of the same age or younger as the individual(s) displayed in the piece. I'm not advocating a particular punishment because I don't know what the best answer is to this issue. However, possession of child pornography is just as illegal as possession of cocaine, regardless of age.

If this was in 'Politics & Current Events', Mid and Mallen would be all over this one.

That isn't exactly true. If two 15 year olds have sex they aren't both charged with statutory rape despite the fact that they both had sex with a minor. Why should this be any different?

That isn't exactly true.
Please don't make such an assertion unless you're knowledgeable in the topic being addressed.


Why should this be any different?
The answers to this question were summarized in the very quote to which you were responding.

Kids do stupid things, always have and always will. Charging them with a crime for this is ridiculous, it's a digital age and the stupid things have (surprise) simply gone digital.

If this was in 'Politics & Current Events', Mid and Mallen would be all over this one.

I've been watching. I do think the entire sex offender system needs to be drastically overhauled. It's just that our legislators are too chicken to do it as they might be considered to be 'soft' on pedophiles.

That something like this could ruin a kid's life is ridiculous. Until the law changes, prosecutors should exercise discretion. In other words, if they do charge this crime, they should be willing to settle for very light sentences. Requiring anyone to do something so life-altering as registering as a sex offender should be out of the question.

Kiddie porn is a big-time deal. And it should be. I think the problem is that they don't have a law tailored to address the situation and it is shoving a square peg into a round hole.

But what also needs to be considered is the problem of cyber bullying. Just like on the message board when people will say things they wouldn't dream of saying, in person, kids have really gotten vicious online. Add to that the frequent lack of social skills in kids and it is a recipe for disaster.

A lot of people are thinking this is a just a question of a teen boy and girl sharing naked pictures. That is fine as far as it goes but you may not be thinking of the reality of what is also going on out there. Instead of that situation, consider the 12 year old, quite unattractive young lady who desparately wants some guy to notice her and sends those pictures. The pictures get out there, are shared, posted, used to redicule her, used to coerce her into sex by guys she isn't even interested in - sometimes in groups(yes, I've seen that) and make her life a living hell. The girls laugh at her, they make fun of her looks, they say things to make her believe that she'll never have a guy interested in her because she is so gross (at 12 think how that hurts - or 13, 14, 15...) Kids can be so mean, especially online. This frequently goes beyond just embarassment. Some of these kids are tormented with permanent emotional damage. They need protection and that a young kid gave them bullets to shoot her with is not the answer. This is emotional rape, frequently, and these kids are not mature enough to give consent.

Whole new market for Letterman - tonight on Stupid Petting Tricks ....

But what also needs to be considered is the problem of cyber bullying. Just like on the message board when people will say things they wouldn't dream of saying, in person, kids have really gotten vicious online. Add to that the frequent lack of social skills in kids and it is a recipe for disaster.

A lot of people are thinking this is a just a question of a teen boy and girl sharing naked pictures. That is fine as far as it goes but you may not be thinking of the reality of what is also going on out there. Instead of that situation, consider the 12 year old, quite unattractive young lady who desparately wants some guy to notice her and sends those pictures. The pictures get out there, are shared, posted, used to redicule her, used to coerce her into sex by guys she isn't even interested in - sometimes in groups(yes, I've seen that) and make her life a living hell. The girls laugh at her, they make fun of her looks, they say things to make her believe that she'll never have a guy interested in her because she is so gross (at 12 think how that hurts - or 13, 14, 15...) Kids can be so mean, especially online. This frequently goes beyond just embarassment. Some of these kids are tormented with permanent emotional damage. They need protection and that a young kid gave them bullets to shoot her with is not the answer. This is emotional rape, frequently, and these kids are not mature enough to give consent.

:congrats: Thanks, ECO. This is exactly the type of thing I worry about with sexting. And shouldn't we be doing what we can to protect our kids from this?

FYI...on another board, I'm being treated as a prude and a bad father for taking this position.

Kiddie porn is a big-time deal. And it should be. I think the problem is that they don't have a law tailored to address the situation and it is shoving a square peg into a round hole.

But what also needs to be considered is the problem of cyber bullying. Just like on the message board when people will say things they wouldn't dream of saying, in person, kids have really gotten vicious online. Add to that the frequent lack of social skills in kids and it is a recipe for disaster.

A lot of people are thinking this is a just a question of a teen boy and girl sharing naked pictures. That is fine as far as it goes but you may not be thinking of the reality of what is also going on out there. Instead of that situation, consider the 12 year old, quite unattractive young lady who desparately wants some guy to notice her and sends those pictures. The pictures get out there, are shared, posted, used to redicule her, used to coerce her into sex by guys she isn't even interested in - sometimes in groups(yes, I've seen that) and make her life a living hell. The girls laugh at her, they make fun of her looks, they say things to make her believe that she'll never have a guy interested in her because she is so gross (at 12 think how that hurts - or 13, 14, 15...) Kids can be so mean, especially online. This frequently goes beyond just embarassment. Some of these kids are tormented with permanent emotional damage. They need protection and that a young kid gave them bullets to shoot her with is not the answer. This is emotional rape, frequently, and these kids are not mature enough to give consent.

Exactly, and on top of that, apparently one girl committed suicide over the tormenting.

Please don't make such an assertion unless you're knowledgeable in the topic being addressed.


The answers to this question were summarized in the very quote to which you were responding.

The word "should" has meaning. Look it up.

:congrats: Thanks, ECO. This is exactly the type of thing I worry about with sexting. And shouldn't we be doing what we can to protect our kids from this?

Sure "we" should be doing what we can, not the state.

It amazes me that people immediately look to the government when there is a problem or an issue as though individuals are powerless to control their lives.

The problem is that our silly 12 year old might send out stuff and we can deal with that but we have no authority over the 15 year old brat down the street who is going to great lengths to make her life miserable.

The problem is that our silly 12 year old might send out stuff and we can deal with that but we have no authority over the 15 year old brat down the street who is going to great lengths to make her life miserable.

Nor should you. Learning how to deal with with bullies is an important lesson for kids. You can tell which adults never learned that lesson as a child.

Nor should you. Learning how to deal with with bullies is an important lesson for kids. You can tell which adults never learned that lesson as a child.

I second that.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. A 12 year old with unflattering naked pictures on a fifteen year old boy's cell phone is outgunned, in my opinion.

It amazes me that people immediately look to the government when there is a problem or an issue as though individuals are powerless to control their lives.


Oh, please! There are all sorts of areas where restrictions are placed on minors and it has absolutely nothing to do with people wanting the government to solve their problems for them.

Oh, please! There are all sorts of areas where restrictions are placed on minors and it has absolutely nothing to do with people wanting the government to solve their problems for them.

That is neither here nor there.

What we are talking about RIGHT NOW IS people wanting the government to solve a problem for them. And my comment was on the general phenomena of people immediately looking to the government for answers.

What we are talking about RIGHT NOW IS people wanting the government to solve a problem for them.

Really? Who said that besides you? It looked to me like folks were discussing whether the laws against sexting should be removed or not.

Really? Who said that besides you? It looked to me like folks were discussing whether the laws against sexting should be removed or not.

Exactly! Its not the state's business. The default stance that legislation is involved from the get-go is the problem.

I don't disagree that there has been a general and strong push in the direction of the government solving problems. And for the most part, I don't think it has been a positive movement. However, the government has always been in the business of passing criminal laws. Absent the state stepping in, I can guarantee you that there would end up being some vigilantism going on if someone thought his young daughter was being harmed and there wasn't anything he could do about it. Avoiding self help is one of the primary reasons we have criminal laws.

Some thoughts...

I don't think that teens passing around nudie photos of themselves should be slapped with child porn charges. I don't think that was the intention of the creation of child porn laws.

My first thought is, live and learn. If teens want to pass around nude photos of themselves, then they will reap the consequences of that action - be it parents, socially, school or whatever...

However, if the intended recipient of the photo breaks trust and passes it around, what are the consequences then? Aren't there already laws on the books regarding that? If someone passes around a nude photograph of their girlfriend at work, say, and the girlfriend finds out. What are the legal actions that can take place currently?

I swear I saw a Judge Judy about this... (not with teens, but adults)...

Some thoughts...

I don't think that teens passing around nudie photos of themselves should be slapped with child porn charges. I don't think that was the intention of the creation of child porn laws.

My first thought is, live and learn. If teens want to pass around nude photos of themselves, then they will reap the consequences of that action - be it parents, socially, school or whatever...

However, if the intended recipient of the photo breaks trust and passes it around, what are the consequences then? Aren't there already laws on the books regarding that? If someone passes around a nude photograph of their girlfriend at work, say, and the girlfriend finds out. What are the legal actions that can take place currently?

I swear I saw a Judge Judy about this... (not with teens, but adults)...

There would probably be a claim of infliction of emotional distress.

Some thoughts...

I don't think that teens passing around nudie photos of themselves should be slapped with child porn charges. I don't think that was the intention of the creation of child porn laws.

My first thought is, live and learn. If teens want to pass around nude photos of themselves, then they will reap the consequences of that action - be it parents, socially, school or whatever...

However, if the intended recipient of the photo breaks trust and passes it around, what are the consequences then? Aren't there already laws on the books regarding that? If someone passes around a nude photograph of their girlfriend at work, say, and the girlfriend finds out. What are the legal actions that can take place currently?

I swear I saw a Judge Judy about this... (not with teens, but adults)...


There are some potential civil charges you could bring (primarily for money damages and good luck collecting) but criminal charges are a different story. Civil lawsuits can take over your life and I am not sure that is how you want to raise your kids. Short of changing schools, I guarantee she'd be subjected to gossip and hard feelings as people discussed the status of the case, how horrible her family is to go after the boy, what the latest court case has involved, discovery responses, etc. Every day would be an open wound.

A criminal case is different. Yes, she'd probably have to testify but there just isn't that day to day involvement with the court, money, lawyers, etc. , that you get with civil trials.

I don't know what kind of punishment (if any) there should be for this...but I think that whatever way you look at it, it's absolutely insane that these kids could face child porn charges and/or sex offender status as a result of a law meant to protect *them*. It would be quite ironic for a *child* to be subject to an "adult" punishment simply for not being an adult when they sent pictures of themselves.

It reminds me of the Genarlow Wilson case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genarlow_Wilson), where a 17-year-old Georgia boy received a conviction of child molestation and a 10-year prison sentence for engaging in oral sex with a 15-year-old girl. He served over 2 years of the sentence before Georgia's Supreme Court decided his punishment was cruel and unusual. Absolutely absurd.

Kiddie porn is a big-time deal. And it should be. I think the problem is that they don't have a law tailored to address the situation and it is shoving a square peg into a round hole.

But what also needs to be considered is the problem of cyber bullying. Just like on the message board when people will say things they wouldn't dream of saying, in person, kids have really gotten vicious online. Add to that the frequent lack of social skills in kids and it is a recipe for disaster.

A lot of people are thinking this is a just a question of a teen boy and girl sharing naked pictures. That is fine as far as it goes but you may not be thinking of the reality of what is also going on out there. Instead of that situation, consider the 12 year old, quite unattractive young lady who desparately wants some guy to notice her and sends those pictures. The pictures get out there, are shared, posted, used to redicule her, used to coerce her into sex by guys she isn't even interested in - sometimes in groups(yes, I've seen that) and make her life a living hell. The girls laugh at her, they make fun of her looks, they say things to make her believe that she'll never have a guy interested in her because she is so gross (at 12 think how that hurts - or 13, 14, 15...) Kids can be so mean, especially online. This frequently goes beyond just embarassment. Some of these kids are tormented with permanent emotional damage. They need protection and that a young kid gave them bullets to shoot her with is not the answer. This is emotional rape, frequently, and these kids are not mature enough to give consent.

Let's look at that scenario though. Kids can be cruel and this is one sort of traumatic cruelty. Other non-sexual things can be much worse. Why does it make sense to hang the threat over the other 12-year-old's head of being a convicted child pornographer (with all of the fine perks of being a sex-offender)?

To call this "mental rape" is ridiculous. Sure, it's bad, but there are a lot of kids who have been [actually] raped who would probably disagree with you.

Let's look at that scenario though. Kids can be cruel and this is one sort of traumatic cruelty. Other non-sexual things can be much worse. Why does it make sense to hang the threat over the other 12-year-old's head of being a convicted child pornographer (with all of the fine perks of being a sex-offender)?

To call this "mental rape" is ridiculous. Sure, it's bad, but there are a lot of kids who have been [actually] raped who would probably disagree with you.

No, calling this mental rape is not ridiculous. This is not to deride an actual rape, but the mental aspects of rape are frequently the worst part. Having pornographic pictures passed around that were sent by a child who lacked the good judgment to not trust the recipient puts her in a hell similar to what a "genuine" rape victim would face should similar pictures of her acquiescing (out of fear) be shared.

And just let me point out that I think the current laws aren't really on point so we aren't really disagreeing on that. But I do think they need something tailored for this situation. It is a new phenomenon due to technology and an overall sexualizing of your young people before they have the judgment to handle it.

Legislators are by nature ballless morons.
As far as "sexting" a combination of a fine and revoked license, on both the sender and the receiptant.
Now my question is where in budda's name is the parents, and how the hell was the "teen" raised.

Now my question is where in budda's name is the parents, and how the hell was the "teen" raised.

A serious question, GM...how many teenagers do you have?

Legislators are by nature ballless morons.
As far as "sexting" a combination of a fine and revoked license, on both the sender and the receiptant.
Now my question is where in budda's name is the parents, and how the hell was the "teen" raised.

Well, those are excellent questions (and a fine comment about legislators) but the sad truth is that teens are out there raised by loving parents who just had no idea. Those babies are the unintended consequences of a lot of things. We have no real "moral" barriers with our youngsters, anymore. The sexual freedom that we celebrate as wonderful, uplifting and healthy for people in their twenties and thirties has, unfortunately, trickled down to our teens and even tweens. They have no idea how to handle it and, more importantly, they don't even know it is a question.

I wish the days of the "good night kiss" on the front step would come back. It would save these families a lot of heartache.

...the sad truth is that teens are out there raised by loving parents who just had no idea.

I sincerely doubt that this is true as often as we'd like to think. It SOUNDS good, but it ignores the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of families where one or more kids turn out great, while others from the same family go bad. Same parents...totally different results...what changed?

I sincerely doubt that this is true as often as we'd like to think. It SOUNDS good, but it ignores the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of families where one or more kids turn out great, while others from the same family go bad. Same parents...totally different results...what changed?

Could be a lot of things. They could have fallen in with a bad group...drugs...maybe they are just the family black sheep... could be that they are suffering from a mental illness, perhaps depression of bipolar, that the others didn't... maybe they are just spoiled or have a personality disorder. Maybe they got involved in internet stuff at a vulnerable time and instead of making real live friends, they went off into a fantasy and never developed social skills. Maybe the family moved or changed schools at a complicated time in the kid's life.

I honestly think it is next to impossible to mess up a basically good kid but the flip side is that there are some people who seem to just come out of the box being Eddie Haskel or something like that. My kids' personalities went through stages but now that they are grown, I look back and they were basically who they are from the time I first met them.

No, calling this mental rape is not ridiculous. This is not to deride an actual rape, but the mental aspects of rape are frequently the worst part. Having pornographic pictures passed around that were sent by a child who lacked the good judgment to not trust the recipient puts her in a hell similar to what a "genuine" rape victim would face should similar pictures of her acquiescing (out of fear) be shared.

And just let me point out that I think the current laws aren't really on point so we aren't really disagreeing on that. But I do think they need something tailored for this situation. It is a new phenomenon due to technology and an overall sexualizing of your young people before they have the judgment to handle it.

First, let's look at who is guilty. I can tell by your post that you think only the young man in this situation would be guilty when in fact the young lady, the 'victim' here commits the exact same illegal act. Why should they both not be punished?

Sure, the child porn laws need to be tailored to keep these kids out of criminal court. The young lady already has a hell of a good civil case in these situations and I think it should end right there.

The tricky part to making exceptions is that you don't want to give the real perverts a loophole they can exploit.

First, let's look at who is guilty. I can tell by your post that you think only the young man in this situation would be guilty when in fact the young lady, the 'victim' here commits the exact same illegal act. Why should they both not be punished?

Sure, the child porn laws need to be tailored to keep these kids out of criminal court. The young lady already has a hell of a good civil case in these situations and I think it should end right there.

The tricky part to making exceptions is that you don't want to give the real perverts a loophole they can exploit.

No, no, no. I have apparently not explained myself well enough in earlier posts. I truly believe that you need to hold something over the young lady's head to keep her on the straight and narrow. These kiddos are frequently beyond insane at a young age. I can't tell you how many I have dealt with who think they can go out drinking and drugging with older guys and nothing will happen because "they" are in control. Or if something happens, it is because they want it to happen. They tell you the same thing when they go on runaway and fall in with total strangers - older men who will cart them from place to place and give them a place to stay.

Most laws in the juvenile court are intended to rehabilitate rather than punish. I think these kids need to have something held over them so that they know that if they screw up and keep acting stupid they will have consequences. Could be detention, could be a group home, could be counseling, house arrest, prohibition from being on the internet, etc. The parents are frequently worse than useless in the early stages because the kids are ignoring them and the parents are so busy handwringing and fearing that they are going to make matters worse if they actually put their foot down that the courts (including probation officers) can bring a healthy sense of perspective. No offense to the parents...

Could be a lot of things. They could have fallen in with a bad group...drugs...maybe they are just the family black sheep... could be that they are suffering from a mental illness, perhaps depression of bipolar, that the others didn't... maybe they are just spoiled or have a personality disorder. Maybe they got involved in internet stuff at a vulnerable time and instead of making real live friends, they went off into a fantasy and never developed social skills. Maybe the family moved or changed schools at a complicated time in the kid's life. Oh, I totally agree. None of the things you mentioned involve parents who weren't doing their best for their kids, though.


I honestly think it is next to impossible to mess up a basically good kid but the flip side is that there are some people who seem to just come out of the box being Eddie Haskel or something like that.
I think you're wrong about this. If that were true, how did your kids become Democrats? LOL (j/k)

Oh, I totally agree. None of the things you mentioned involve parents who weren't doing their best for their kids, though.

I think most of them DO try. Some suck dishwater but we've all known really good people who have good kids and kids that are holy terrors.



I think you're wrong about this. If that were true, how did your kids become Democrats? LOL (j/k)

Well, I started out democrat and raised them that way. The foolishness of youth, I guess! :ohno:

No, calling this mental rape is not ridiculous. This is not to deride an actual rape, but the mental aspects of rape are frequently the worst part. Having pornographic pictures passed around that were sent by a child who lacked the good judgment to not trust the recipient puts her in a hell similar to what a "genuine" rape victim would face should similar pictures of her acquiescing (out of fear) be shared.



You're cheapening "rape."

And look, these kids aren't dumb. They're very savvy. You're describing some kid that thinks it's a safe/acceptable idea to send the pictures out? That there's not a decent chance they'll be sent around everywhere? It's not like that makes it acceptable, but the person that puts themselves in that position shares a large portion of the blame. MOST kids are intelligent little people...no need to patronize them. When you act as though they can't make a good judgment call, they will frequently use that as a cue for irresponsilbity and lack of accountability because after all, if Mom and Dad think they don't know right from wrong, then you lose the mea culpa. I believe the children are our future. We should teach them well and let them lead the way. If we show them all the beauty they possess inside and give them a sense of pride, we'll make it easier for them.

That's like leaving a $100 bill on the sidewalk in front of your house. Sure- it's yours, and sure- it's wrong if someone takes it. But everyone knows not to leave cash sitting in front of the house unattended, and while it's uncool for someone to take that cash, people don't typically view that person who lost the money as much of a victim.

The youngest children that understand what an email is also understand that pictures can be sent around to lots of people very quickly. This is not some unforeseeable result.

Again, that's not saying we don't need some sort of narrowly tailored, thoughtful and possibly criminal laws on the books for this. Just saying that "emotional rape" is a little overboard. Rape is an emotionally devastating physical assault. The other is merely bullying based on a naked picture. Bullying will always be around, whether it's based on braces, glasses, color of hair, or naked pictures foolishly sent around the crowd.

I don't think I am cheapening rape to say that this is like emotional rape. If you were a fifteen year old kid and all your friends were passing around pictures of you and some old guy who seduced you at age 12, and bullying you about it, you might feel differently. Or not. I can't get into your head but when kids are too foolish to make good decisions and are tormented by it as a result, I think there needs to be some community sanctions to take the place of what we used to accomplish with shame and the teaching of old fashioned decency.

And I will never get off my position that just because a kid knows right from wrong (and I think they do) they aren't still more prone to act impulsively than an adult. Even to their detriment. That is why we have laws on the books for juveniles. For that matter, we all know this - it is why society keeps them from voting, entering into contracts (or at least making them voidable), joining the military, marrying, etc.

Besides, who says a 14 year old needs a phone with a camera anyway? Answer: they DON'T.

Agreed!!!

They can have a Jitterbug. :)

As far as I am concerned, a can and a string is about as high tech as they need.

http://www.20plus30.com/blog/uploaded_images/jitterbug-709324.jpg

A lot of my noncustodial parents get their kids a cell phone that is programed to only certain numbers - their own, primarily. That way, they can keep in contact; the custodial parent isn't kicking about the cost; and the kiddo isn't tempted to use the minutes for something it was not intended to be used for. I don't know why custodial parents can't do the same thing if they are bound and determined to keep in contact with their child 24/7. If my mother had wanted to be in contact with me all the time I would have done away with myself.