Wow, this thread has gone to heck in a handbasket. EO and Bunty need to get a room, I need to stop wasting my time on this forum and we all need to turn the rascals out in November (sorry, I'll limit future political comments to the politics category).

So to go by your logic and morality when it comes to abortion and being pro choice you have no other choice but to believe that such people believe:

You don't rape four year olds, UNLESS you own them.

You don't drag puppies behind cars at 40 MPH, UNLESS they are your puppies.

You don't eat squash unless it is grilled, UNLESS if you grew it.

Bunty, is it OK to impale a two month old baby's head, suck out its brain through a tube, then throw its body in the dumpster?

Bunty, is it OK to impale a two month old baby's head, suck out its brain through a tube, then throw its body in the dumpster?

Of course, no, why make yourself look foolish and stupid by asking such a hugely disgusting question? It suits me fine that to me there is plenty of difference between a fetus 2 weeks in a womb and a two month old baby outside the womb. And I can't control a woman who's pregnant.

Of course, no, why make yourself look foolish and stupid by asking such a hugely disgusting question? It suits me fine that to me there is plenty of difference between a fetus 2 weeks in a womb and a two month old baby outside the womb. And I can't control a woman who's pregnant.

Ok. So no.

So then is it OK to do the same procedure to a 9 month old fetus, the day before its due date?

PQ, I'd agree with all those. Although I wouldn't put the limits on them you did.

There's the relativity for you.

Well, taking the squash thing off the table - surely that isn't arguable - when would anyone be allowed to drag puppies or rape four year olds?

Ok. So no.

So then is it OK to do the same procedure to a 9 month old fetus, the day before its due date?

No, but so what, few abortions are performed then.

No, but so what, few abortions are performed then.

OK. So No then.

So how about an 8 month old fetus?

No, but so what, few abortions are performed then.
It's just another innocent life that doesn't deserve to live, right Bunty?

It's just another innocent life that doesn't deserve to live, right Bunty?

Now Prune, we don't need that. Bunty is just about to show us where is the cutoff line between a human life with full rights and a glob of cell tissue and how he came to that conclusion.

Now Prune, we don't need that. Bunty is just about to show us where is the
cutoff line between a human life with full rights and a glob of cell tissue and
how he came to that conclusion.
You're right. I'm sure we'll all be amazed. He's probably diligently searching
the Daily Kos and Wikipedia as we speak, so to speak.

No, but so what, few abortions are performed then.

AH! So what? A few deaths here and there? Why do the police get so excited about one murder, then?

It's just another innocent life that doesn't deserve to live, right Bunty?

Well, Prunepicker, if you believe in your heart and soul that an unborn baby is just beyond innocent, then why don't you advocate the law placing all pregnant women under electronic 24 hr. a day guard, so if a women is caught going onto the Internet trying to find out how the heck one is supposed to use a coat hanger to induce an abortion, she can be arrested and thrown in prison until birth is given. If you're so concerned about unborn babies being utterly slaughtered in the womb, then what are you doing about it?

Well, Prunepicker, if you believe in your heart and soul that an unborn baby is just beyond innocent, then why don't you advocate the law placing all pregnant women under electronic 24 hr. a day guard, so if a women is caught going onto the Internet trying to find out how the heck one is supposed to use a coat hanger to induce an abortion, she can be arrested and thrown in prison until birth is given. If you're so concerned about unborn babies being utterly slaughtered in the womb, then what are you doing about it?

Well, is it OK to abort an 8 month old fetus or not? Yes or no.

Well, Prunepicker, if you believe in your heart and soul that an unborn baby is
just beyond innocent, then why don't you advocate the law placing all
pregnant women under electronic 24 hr. a day guard, so if a women is caught
going onto the Internet trying to find out how the heck one is supposed to
use a coat hanger to induce an abortion, she can be arrested and thrown in
prison until birth is given. If you're so concerned about unborn babies being
utterly slaughtered in the womb, then what are you doing about it?
Where do you come up with these make believe scenarios? This one is
absolutely idiotic and has nothing to do with reality.

Bless your heart.

Well, is it OK to abort an 8 month old fetus or not? Yes or no.

Come on Caboose. That is not a question for me to answer because I'm not the pregnant woman.

Where do you come up with these make believe scenarios? This one is
absolutely idiotic and has nothing to do with reality.

Bless your heart.

But bless your own heart, Prunepicker, because I thought you very passionately believe in forced birth for women who don't want to give birth. Am I all out totally wrong???

Come on Caboose. That is not a question for me to answer because I'm not the pregnant woman.

OK... So we have narrowed it down a bit.
You have determined that life begins somewhere between the 8th and 9th month of gestation.

So let's narrow it down a bit further. Is an abortion at 8 months and two weeks OK, Bunty?

P.S. You can speed this up by simply stating the specific day of gestation you have determined that life begins and then we can get to the good part.

But bless your own heart, Prunepicker, because I thought you very
passionately believe in forced birth for women who don't want to give birth.
Am I all out totally wrong???
This is your make believe answer from your make believe world and has
nothing to do with reality.

Well, is it OK to abort an 8 month old fetus or not? Yes or no.


What a ridiculous question. In what fairy-tale universe would that be the actual core of the decision a potential mother is facing?

P.S. You can speed this up by simply stating the specific day of gestation you have determined that life begins and then we can get to the good part.

The day will never be pinned down on a large scale. We may reach a point technologically where we can say nerve structure reaches a determined level of connectedness to call it human(unique to every pregnancy), but not in our lifetimes, mate. All we have is "sometime" which is why you don't get to shove your opinion down some woman's throat.

How about the point of viability of life--meaning, the fetus can live outside the womb--as the "beginning" of life?

Anything before that and it's just a parasite, living off the host (mother). ;)

I suggest we drop this topic forever. Every point by both sides have been made on this and other threads on the subject. I suggest that if one gets the urge to say something that they simply read this and all the other similar threads again and praise or curse each post as feelings dictate. IT HAS ALL BEEN SAID and no one got converted. Let us all STFU.

I suggest we drop this topic forever. Every point by both sides have been made on this and other threads on the subject. I suggest that if one gets the urge to say something that they simply read this and all the other similar threads again and praise or curse each post as feelings dictate. IT HAS ALL BEEN SAID and no one got converted. Let us all STFU.

Wow, you ask so nicely...

Wow, you ask so nicely...

I was feeling light hearted. :)

How about the point of viability of life--meaning, the fetus can live outside
the womb--as the "beginning" of life?

Anything before that and it's just a parasite, living off the host (mother). ;)
Because it's not a parasite. Oh, it sounds good but once that notion is
carried beyond the womb there's the question of what it's going do be
after the birth because it's going to be doing the same thing, i.e. living off
the host mother, physically, dependently and affectively. Then one can say
that there are others that can help with the care. Using the parasite theory
the baby becomes a parasite to others and this is going to be a fact for
several years.

Maybe some of us feel that children are parasites and would be fine with classifying them as such until they support themselves.

But bless your own heart, Prunepicker, because I thought you very passionately believe in forced birth for women who don't want to give birth. Am I all out totally wrong???

"Forced Birth"...now only Bunty could come up with a new term like that. It is perfectly, politically correctly LIBERAL!!!!

What a ridiculous question. In what fairy-tale universe would that be the actual core of the decision a potential mother is facing?

I don't understand the comment. Clarify?

Maybe some of us feel that children are parasites and would be fine with
classifying them as such until they support themselves.
You could, but it be a subjective opinion rather than objective.

Is there really such thing as an objective opinion? If you have an objective opinion, then it's just fact. And I haven't seen anyone really give me that many facts in this thread--mostly just brow-beating and attempting to persuade others to see your (and a few others) point of view.

At what point can a baby live on its own outside the womb, Prune? Do you know? How can you murder something that cannot even live on its own? Are you against euthanasia of animals? Of old people? Do you give the same regard to a spider on your ceiling that you give to these unborn fetuses?

Old people are parasitic, frequently, if they need assistance to survive. So do nursing babies. So do many people who are healing from accidents or strokes. The husband of an elderly friend of mine just got a trach removed five months following a massive stroke. He has been completely dependent on others for everything. They are thrilled that he has been able to handle the remote.

A parasitic fetus who can live on its own in a month and then be a healthy contributing member of society for a lifetime, seems like a better use of resources (arguably - if you had to choose) than keeping an old person alive following a stroke who will be in the hospital for months before recovering and living another ten years. The argument about viability just doesn't hold up if rationally examined. It is a completely arbitrary standard but one used to excuse killing fetuses for a long time. I don't think that is going to change as long as it is a convenient, if intellectually bankrupt, rationalization.

Is there really such thing as an objective opinion? If you have an objective
opinion, then it's just fact. And I haven't seen anyone really give me that
many facts in this thread--mostly just brow-beating and attempting to
persuade others to see your (and a few others) point of view.

At what point can a baby live on its own outside the womb, Prune? Do you
know? How can you murder something that cannot even live on its own?
Are you against euthanasia of animals? Of old people? Do you give the
same regard to a spider on your ceiling that you give to these unborn
fetuses?
Yes, there is really such a thing as an objective opinion. Brow beating and
attempting to persuade others is a subjective view.

A baby, on it's own, can't live outside the body whether before birth or
after. That's an objective fact, not an opinion. But that fact doesn't
mean it isn't a life and it certainly doesn't make it a parasite worthy of
death.

I'm against euthanasia of animals and old people. I don't give a spider
the same regard as a human baby, you can call it a fetus, because it's not
a human.

Pro-Choice.
Who is anyone to sit around & tell someone what they should do just because it's what someone else believes in?
Abortions can only go up to 24wks. for a reason.
& if people were educated then there wouldn't be such a big arguement about it.
Nobody can for sure figure out where life starts.
& until then abortions will ALWAYS be legal.

Yes, there is really such a thing as an objective opinion. Brow beating and
attempting to persuade others is a subjective view.

A baby, on it's own, can't live outside the body whether before birth or
after. That's an objective fact, not an opinion. But that fact doesn't
mean it isn't a life and it certainly doesn't make it a parasite worthy of
death.

I'm against euthanasia of animals and old people. I don't give a spider
the same regard as a human baby, you can call it a fetus, because it's not
a human.

What PP said.

... if people were educated then there wouldn't be such a big
argument about it.
... because they'd realize it is a life. There's no doubt about it. It's a
human being.

Then what do you want to see happen. For all abortions to be banned and then get on your knees and pray to God to make the ban on abortion actually work?

Then what do you want to see happen. For all abortions to be banned and then get on your knees and pray to God to make the ban on abortion actually work?

Yes, making them totally illegal and pushing them to the black market/underground/less desirable countries would do wonders for women's health in this country.

I can't justify putting women through that. I can't justify putting a teenage girl who is scared out of her mind through delivering a baby that she doesn't have to deliver. And yes, I know you're going to say, "If they are old enough to have sex, they are old enough to have a baby." I think so many people have forgotten what it was like to be a teenager and how STUPID we all were. We all seem to think we were all perfect, and that all teenagers now should be perfect. And now I'm off on a tangent...dang.

I also can't justify putting a woman who was raped through delivering a baby that is a product of that rape. I know that isn't the majority of abortions performed, however, it is a percentage that should be accounted for when lawmakers come up with their rules and regulations.

I can't justify putting a woman through a delivery process that could kill her. Some women's bodies cannot handle pregnancy and shouldn't. Yes, there is birth control, but not everyone reacts well to hormonal birth control and barrier methods don't have as high a success rate because of malfunction or misuse. Are women who are married and shouldn't have a baby because of their own health issues remain celibate in a marriage? I don't think that would really work out for all parties involved.

Then what do you want to see happen. For all abortions to be banned and then get on your knees and pray to God to make the ban on abortion actually work?

Oh I thought you were done with this topic?

Is it OK to abort a fetus at 8.5 months?

You have already declared it is not OK at nine months, explain why.

Pro-Choice.
Who is anyone to sit around & tell someone what they should do just because it's what someone else believes in?

I know!!! Like when the government tells me that I cant chop your arms with a machete just because someone else doesnt "believe in it". Thats ridiculous! I should be able to do what I want!



Abortions can only go up to 24wks. for a reason.

What is that reason exactly?



if people were educated then there wouldn't be such a big arguement about it.
Nobody can for sure figure out where life starts.
& until then abortions will ALWAYS be legal.

So then I am assuming you support a woman's decision to have an abortion in the 9th month of pregnancy, the day before her due date. Is that correct? If not, why not?

Yes, making them totally illegal and pushing them to the black market/underground/less desirable countries would do wonders for women's health in this country.

I can't justify putting women through that. I can't justify putting a teenage girl who is scared out of her mind through delivering a baby that she doesn't have to deliver. And yes, I know you're going to say, "If they are old enough to have sex, they are old enough to have a baby." I think so many people have forgotten what it was like to be a teenager and how STUPID we all were. We all seem to think we were all perfect, and that all teenagers now should be perfect. And now I'm off on a tangent...dang.

I also can't justify putting a woman who was raped through delivering a baby that is a product of that rape. I know that isn't the majority of abortions performed, however, it is a percentage that should be accounted for when lawmakers come up with their rules and regulations.

I can't justify putting a woman through a delivery process that could kill her. Some women's bodies cannot handle pregnancy and shouldn't. Yes, there is birth control, but not everyone reacts well to hormonal birth control and barrier methods don't have as high a success rate because of malfunction or misuse. Are women who are married and shouldn't have a baby because of their own health issues remain celibate in a marriage? I don't think that would really work out for all parties involved.

This whole line of argument is full of you know what. Abortion still stops a beating heart no matter what you can't justify. The "putting a woman through a delivery process that could kill her" is BS. So is the "putting a woman who was raped". And I suspect you know it. Those are such infinitessimally small percentages of abortions, shame on you for even bringing them into the discussion! Most abortions are abortions of convenience.

Yes, making them totally illegal and pushing them to the black market/underground/less desirable countries would do wonders for women's health in this country.

I can't justify putting women through that. I can't justify putting a teenage girl who is scared out of her mind through delivering a baby that she doesn't have to deliver. And yes, I know you're going to say, "If they are old enough to have sex, they are old enough to have a baby." I think so many people have forgotten what it was like to be a teenager and how STUPID we all were. We all seem to think we were all perfect, and that all teenagers now should be perfect. And now I'm off on a tangent...dang.

I also can't justify putting a woman who was raped through delivering a baby that is a product of that rape. I know that isn't the majority of abortions performed, however, it is a percentage that should be accounted for when lawmakers come up with their rules and regulations.

I can't justify putting a woman through a delivery process that could kill her. Some women's bodies cannot handle pregnancy and shouldn't. Yes, there is birth control, but not everyone reacts well to hormonal birth control and barrier methods don't have as high a success rate because of malfunction or misuse. Are women who are married and shouldn't have a baby because of their own health issues remain celibate in a marriage? I don't think that would really work out for all parties involved.

As much as one may be inclined to agree with everything you said, EVERY single bit of your opinion is based on you accepting that a fetus is not a human life with the full rights protected by the US Constitution. So how did you come to that conclusion?

So as I see it, Caboose, you very, very strongly feel that there can be no doubt about it, whatsover. Life most certainaly does, indeed, begins at conception. This seems like something you can't possibly get out of your head. Am I RIGHT?

Oh I thought you were done with this topic?

Is it OK to abort a fetus at 8.5 months?

You have already declared it is not OK at nine months, explain why.
I was only done with it in an unrelated topic after you brought it up inappropriately.

Once again, who cares, other than the woman with the unwanted pregnancy, who should have never lusted after a hot guy and spread her legs for him in the first place?

This whole line of argument is full of you know what. Abortion still stops a beating heart no matter what you can't justify. The "putting a woman through a delivery process that could kill her" is BS. So is the "putting a woman who was raped". And I suspect you know it. Those are such infinitessimally small percentages of abortions, shame on you for even bringing them into the discussion! Most abortions are abortions of convenience.

So please, RealJimbo, tell us how banning abortion is supposed to work so very well in at last putting a stop to women getting abortions as a matter of personal convenience? After all, in Latin American Catholic countries of South America where abortion is banned, the abortion rate is likely higher than here in the United States. It is one of the reasons why I know I'm very right for being pro-choice.

So as I see it, Caboose, you very, very strongly feel that there can be no doubt about it, whatsover. Life most certainaly does, indeed, begins at conception. This seems like something you can't possibly get out of your head. Am I RIGHT?

I never said anything remotely like that.

I was only done with it in an unrelated topic after you brought it up inappropriately.

Once again, who cares, other than the woman with the unwanted pregnancy, who should have never lusted after a hot guy and spread her legs for him in the first place?

OK, so back on topic.

Why are abortions the day before a woman's due date not acceptable for you?

So...just because the percentage of women who can't physically bear a child, and those women who are raped and impregnated as a result (and let's throw incest in there, too) is small, we are just supposed to ignore that it does happen and choose this for them?

They don't deserve rights because they are a minority?

So...just because the percentage of women who can't physically bear a child, and those women who are raped and impregnated as a result (and let's throw incest in there, too) is small, we are just supposed to ignore that it does happen and choose this for them?

They don't deserve rights because they are a minority?

Again... the only reason you find it rational to even ask such questions is based on your conclusion that the fetus is not a full human life with rights protected by the US Constitution. So why don't you just explain how you came to that conclusion and end the entire debate for everyone forever?

Caboose--I don't have to explain anything to you or to anyone here. I was simply asking you questions. Where do your beliefs come from, then?

Caboose--I don't have to explain anything to you or to anyone here. I was simply asking you questions. Where do your beliefs come from, then?

Why are you getting so defensive?
Do you think a fetus is a full human life with full rights?

I'm not being defensive. I refuse to be bullied. It is difficult to get the tone through text, but imagine me saying it very calmly. I have nothing to explain to you. I asked some questions, you accused me of believing something. I asked some more questions, you basically said I was either lying or pulling out small numbers to make my point.

The point is, you know nothing about me, my beliefs, or why I feel that way, and even if I do explain all of those things to you, you will not accept them. It would be a waste of both our time.

I've been persecuted on this board before, and I won't be again. Not by you, not by anyone.

I'm not being defensive. I refuse to be bullied. It is difficult to get the tone through text, but imagine me saying it very calmly. I have nothing to explain to you. I asked some questions, you accused me of believing something. I asked some more questions, you basically said I was either lying or pulling out small numbers to make my point.

The point is, you know nothing about me, my beliefs, or why I feel that way, and even if I do explain all of those things to you, you will not accept them. It would be a waste of both our time.

I've been persecuted on this board before, and I won't be again. Not by you, not by anyone.

I am not bullying or persecuting you. I have no idea what you are talking about with "small numbers". This is a discussion about "The Abortion Issue", just as the thread title implies. You jumped into it ready to show everyone that you had all the answers. All I am doing is asking you for an explanation as to how you arrived at your conclusion. If you think that is being bullied and persecuted then you are in for a rough miserable life as a perpetual victim. So if you want to continue the discussion you got in voluntarily, then I would be happy to continue with you. Otherwise, See ya. No loss to me.

So, back on point. Do you believe a fetus is a full human life with full rights or not?

The point is, you know nothing about me, my beliefs, or why I feel that way, and even if I do explain all of those things to you, you will not accept them. It would be a waste of both our time.


And this simply isnt true. If you would explain how you determined whether or not a fetus is a human life with full rights then not only would I accept it, the whole WORLD would, and this debate would be over for good. Unless of course... you are wrong. All I am asking you to do is show your work.

So what is the REAL holdup here? You dont want to explain yourself because you feel "bullied and persecuted"? Or is it because you know the very foundation you built your entire opinion on this topic is wrong or unknowable?

Why are you getting so defensive?
Do you think a fetus is a full human life with full rights?

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. By definition, by law, it's not.

You can argue about the way things ought to be and you're entitled to your opinion. But that's all you have--an opinion.

Trying to argue subjective opinion as objective fact is a game you can only win in your own mind.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. By definition, by law, it's not.

You can argue about the way things ought to be and you're entitled to your opinion. But that's all you have--an opinion.

Trying to argue subjective opinion as objective fact is a game you can only win in your own mind.

What are you talking about? What do you think we are doing here? Do you think the lot of us on this thread are unaware of what the law is?

And for the record, I am not the one who has presented a subjective opinion here, am I?

And for the record, I am not the one who has presented a subjective opinion
here, am I?
I did however it was only about how opinions are formed.

What are you talking about? What do you think we are doing here? Do you think the lot of us on this thread are unaware of what the law is?

And for the record, I am not the one who has presented a subjective opinion here, am I?

And what is your subjective opinion?

Well, at least Caboose has denied saying that he believes life starts at conception.

And what is your subjective opinion?

I don't have one on this issue.

Now, is it OK that people are discussing this issue on a discussion board?

Well, at least Caboose has denied saying that he believes life starts at conception.

I don't know when life starts Bunty. How did you conclude when it starts?