Not to mention, Chesapeake/McClendon is being luring them here, so it's without a doubt going to be in the area where it's been rumored for awhile, the Classen Curve/Western Ave. area.

What about 63rd and May where CompUSA was, next door to Half Price Books?

I think it's pretty clear from Steve's comments where this is going to be located; on the old Hahn-Cook site just west of the CHK campus.

What about the vacant spot that held Linen's 'N Things at Belle Isle? Probably not likely with Wal-Mart so close, but its an idea.

Too small. Not upscale enough.


What about 63rd and May where CompUSA was, next door to Half Price Books?

Also way too small.

I wonder if master plans change ...

Steve, you're just being mean now. lol

Tuck, I'm sure you could shed more light here. Go ahead...

Appears everyone has registered their "guess", my comment..."we will just have to be patient a bit longer."

That is a silly argument, even if you are splitting hairs between weight and volume. Beers drinker, like myself, enjoy craft beers or micro brews, which often times have up to 8% alcohol by volume.

Actually, it's pretty accurate. Even the list you provided has very few beers that make it to 6.0 by volume. The whole "6 point Texas beer" thing is really a myth, and even most micros and crafts don't often go much more than 6.

It's also pretty much a myth that Whole Foods doesn't locate where it can't sell wine or beer in excess of 3.2. You can't (or at least couldn't) in New York, and Whole Foods has been there for a while and of course they have one, by way of buy-out, in Tulsa. It's more of a factor of whether they think the demographics suggest the community can and will pay their mark up for organic and prepared foods, in general.

Still, it's stupid that you can't buy cold beer in excess of 3.2 in Oklahoma at all, even in a liquor store. It seems to me that we should be able to change that easier than we could get beer and wine in a grocery store, simply because it not only protects the liquor stores, but increases their market reach, and you can still make the argument that it's easier to police, because no one under 21 can even enter a liquor store. Yes, their hours would still be crappy, but it just seems it would take a lot less legislative energy to get some refrigerators into our liquor stores than it would to get beer and wine in to our grocery stores' refrigerators.

I'll be glad in 18 months or so when WF opens up so hopefully I don't have to listen to the same crappy argument on they aren't going to come here because of our liquor laws.

That argument is never going to end, as there are still plenty of stores not in Oklahoma, like Trader Joe's and Costco.

And when a big national retailer opens hundreds of stores around the U.S. and multiple locations abroad before coming to OKC, you know there are forces at work other than demographics.

Actually, it's pretty accurate. Even the list you provided has very few beers that make it to 6.0 by volume. The whole "6 point Texas beer" thing is really a myth, and even most micros and crafts don't often go much more than 6.


Respectfully, I don't know how to make it more clear. If you are talking about Keystone Light and Coors, then your argument is sound. If you are a fan of beer, and beer pairing with your meals, Keystone light just doesn't cut it.

To figure the ABW from the ABV, multiple by .8 (.79 more accurately, but that is harder on the head). The percentage of alcohol by mass is higher than the percentage of alcohol by volume because an equal mass of alcohol occupies more volume than water would. Roughly, the beer needs to be 4.1% ABV to make the stores in OK.

So let's look at the list I posted and find the beers with 4.1% ABV (and less) and see if that gets any beer drinker excited.

Aspen Edge 4.1%
Bud Ice Light 4.1%
Budweiser Select 55 2.4%
Busch Light 4.1%
Coors Light 4.15%
Hamm's Special Light 3.9%
Michelob Ultra 4.1%
Miller Genuine Draft "64" 2.8%
Old Milwaukee Light 3.8%
Pabst Extra Light Low Alcohol 2.5%
Yuengling Light 3.8%

Not a single micro brew in that list. Hell, not even decent brews from mass brewers, like a Killians Amber. I even left Coor list on the list, but it is over the limit.

Now, is this the reason Whole Foods doesn't come to town? I dunno. But I do know that Texas "six point" beer *is* in fact stronger. Double strength? No. But 1.25x stronger? Yes.

And that is just a mathematical fact.

Respectfully, I don't know how to make it more clear. If you are talking about Keystone Light and Coors, then your argument is sound. If you are a fan of beer, and beer pairing with your meals, Keystone light just doesn't cut it.

To figure the ABW from the ABV, multiple by .8 (.79 more accurately, but that is harder on the head). The percentage of alcohol by mass is higher than the percentage of alcohol by volume because an equal mass of alcohol occupies more volume than water would. Roughly, the beer needs to be 4.1% ABV to make the stores in OK.

So let's look at the list I posted and find the beers with 4.1% ABV (and less) and see if that gets any beer drinker excited.

Aspen Edge 4.1%
Bud Ice Light 4.1%
Budweiser Select 55 2.4%
Busch Light 4.1%
Coors Light 4.15%
Hamm's Special Light 3.9%
Michelob Ultra 4.1%
Miller Genuine Draft "64" 2.8%
Old Milwaukee Light 3.8%
Pabst Extra Light Low Alcohol 2.5%
Yuengling Light 3.8%

Not a single micro brew in that list. Hell, not even decent brews from mass brewers, like a Killians Amber. I even left Coor list on the list, but it is over the limit.

Now, is this the reason Whole Foods doesn't come to town? I dunno. But I do know that Texas "six point" beer *is* in fact stronger. Double strength? No. But 1.25x stronger? Yes.

And that is just a mathematical fact.

John Denver,

It seems you're only focusing on domestics, not craft beers. Were we in virtually any other state, we could pick up a nice Stella Artois or St. Pauli or Red Hook, etc. in a grocery store or convenience store -- ice cold and ready to drink. Those beers have higher alcohol content than the watered down domestics in your post.

John Denver,

It seems you're only focusing on domestics, not craft beers. Were we in virtually any other state, we could pick up a nice Stella Artois or St. Pauli or Red Hook, etc. in a grocery store or convenience store -- ice cold and ready to drink. Those beers have higher alcohol content than the watered down domestics in your post.

Certainly, I was just taking that one link and finding the beers that were even available to be in our stores. And only domestic light beers are (without watering them down) available to be in stores. So for other beers to even be in our grocery stores, they have to be weaker than their Texas counterpart. That was my whole point.

Red Hook is my favorite (large) microbrewer. I don't recall ever seeing it in OKC.

I moved here a little over a year ago. The beer laws are a cumbersome. I bought a deep chest freezer for my home brew kegs and a beer fridge for my liquor store beer.. I keep it well stocked so I don't run into situations where I previously would just stop by a store on the way to a party.

Also, it makes throwing a party crappy as well. Effectively our new OKC friends engage in a beer swap at my house. They bring crappy 3.2 (4.1% ABW to appease readers) beer that they bought on the way over, and drink my good beer that I had stocked. Of course they will bring the cold 3.2 beer, because if they stopped at the liquor store, they would show up with warm beer (party faux paux).

Certainly, I was just taking that one link and finding the beers that were even available to be in our stores. And only domestic light beers are (without watering them down) available to be in stores. So for other beers to even be in our grocery stores, they have to be weaker than their Texas counterpart. That was my whole point.

Red Hook is my favorite (large) microbrewer. I don't recall ever seeing it in OKC.

I moved here a little over a year ago. The beer laws are a cumbersome. I bought a deep chest freezer for my home brew kegs and a beer fridge for my liquor store beer.. I keep it well stocked so I don't run into situations where I previously would just stop by a store on the way to a party.

Also, it makes throwing a party crappy as well. Effectively our new OKC friends engage in a beer swap at my house. They bring crappy 3.2 (4.1% ABW to appease readers) beer that they bought on the way over, and drink my good beer that I had stocked. Of course they will bring the cold 3.2 beer, because if they stopped at the liquor store, they would show up with warm beer (party faux paux).

Buy good beer at your neighborhood liquor store, put in the refrigerator for a few hours, take to party, problem solved. It's not that difficult.

OKCBiz: No plans for Whole Foods in OKC (http://okc.biz/article/08-31-2009/Whole_Foods_corporate_No_plans_for_Oklahoma_City_s tore.aspx)

Buy good beer at your neighborhood liquor store, put in the refrigerator for a few hours, take to party, problem solved. It's not that difficult.

um. *I* don't have this problem. I already stated I am beered up to the gills with my liquor store beer.

So which is it? I'm guessing the company PR person would deny it up and until they finalize building plans.

Still, I have little regard for News9's journalistic prowess.

You are probably right that PR people would deny it on record until it was 100% confirmed.

Sure makes News 9 look bad right now, though.

Heck, any of the local tv stations look bad when it comes to journalism, even many reporters at the Oklahoman. Why are you all acting surprised of bad journalism?

You are probably right that PR people would deny it on record until it was 100% confirmed.

Sure makes News 9 look bad right now, though.

I suspect you may be correct. At least OKCBiz followed through with real journalism practices and went straight to the source. The caveat is "at this time," which could change tomorrow.

NOOOOO!!!!!!

Why do you build me up...build me up...buttercup, baby just to let me down...

Steve say it ain't so??? Here's hoping that they're just messing with us and that the surprise is just being withheld for some other purpose.

Their same store sales were negative 2.5% last quarter. They have to get through the recession. I remember reading they only had very few stores planned to open in 2010. Lots of opportunities for picking up some awfully good real estate in areas more hurt by the recession at that.

I have the greatest regard for Heidi at OKC Biz. I can't argue what's been said about TV news, though I'll stick up for many of my co-workers at the Oklahoman and there are some really good tv reporters out there as well.
The KWTV report was flimsy. That having been said, it's very common for a corporation to deny, deny, deny right up to the minute they confirm.
Don't start crying yet. I'm hearing things that would tend to support what KWTV has out there, though not enough to go with a story.

Sounds to me that WF is in final negotiations with CHK for a new location on the old Hahn-Cook site.

NOOOOO!!!!!!

Why do you build me up...build me up...buttercup, baby just to let me down...

Steve say it ain't so??? Here's hoping that they're just messing with us and that the surprise is just being withheld for some other purpose.

If there is one thing to learn with this story its to never, ever get your hopes up with the latest rumor.

That said, I do see a Whole Foods opening somewhere in OKC within 2.5 years. I think a big reason we do not have a store yet is because there is a lack of quality sites, or at least a lack of sites they desire.

If there is one thing to learn with this story its to never, ever get your hopes up with the latest rumor.


The rumors have never been substantial enough for a major news source to announce it.

Well, that's what got this whole thing started, jbrown. I don't have enough to break a story, but I'll admit I'm getting a whole lot of indications that it's coming to fruition. KWTV, meanwhile, jumped the gun and did a pretty flimsy report over the weekend. They in turn got called out by Heidi Centrella, a very talented reporter and editor at OKC Biz, who got Whole Foods denying the story. This is where I doubt any of us are doing you, the news consumers, any favors, and I'm wondering if I went too far putting what I did on the blog. How do I tell you that I suspect this is more than a rumor, but without telling you who my sources are and explaining why I can't say for certain it's for real?
I stand ready for your feedback.

Well, that's what got this whole thing started, jbrown. I don't have enough to break a story, but I'll admit I'm getting a whole lot of indications that it's coming to fruition. KWTV, meanwhile, jumped the gun and did a pretty flimsy report over the weekend. They in turn got called out by Heidi Centrella, a very talented reporter and editor at OKC Biz, who got Whole Foods denying the story. This is where I doubt any of us are doing you, the news consumers, any favors, and I'm wondering if I went too far putting what I did on the blog. How do I tell you that I suspect this is more than a rumor, but without telling you who my sources are and explaining why I can't say for certain it's for real?
I stand ready for your feedback.

Perhaps you should treat your blog like the print version of your work. I realize that blogs are a relatively new news portal, but why are the rules different for it?

LordGerald, I think part of the challenge these days is that no one seems to know what the rules are for anything anymore. Everything is changing very quickly - my goal is to inform people as to what's going on, report the news, and with the blog and column go one step further and give readers the same kind of information that is available to insiders (when possible).

:dizzy:Ok, everyone needs to say nice things about me here because I just found out my bosses are reading this.
;)

Steve, my comment was in respect to the rumors in the past vs. now. This is the first time any real news outlet is willing to claim it's happening. I respect you for holding off on doing the same. My comment wasn't intended to call you out in any way.

Thanks JBrown, didn't think that at all. I think you brought up some very good questions here. When I step aside and try to think like a news consumer, I realize just how bewildering all of this can be.

Steve,

Your standards should not change one bit for the blogosphere. If you don't have the sources, don't put it on your blog. I think your news judgment is good.

I'm not sure it's fair to say "all the rules have changed." I do think mainstream media are not exactly thrilled when they are challenged on their reporting by bloggers, and challenged on their accuracy and completeness. For the record, I don't think you have this problem.

I would just keep this in mind, I consider you to be a very trustworthy journalist that only publishes things for which you have researched and wait wait until you have all of the facts. I have the impression that you have the ear of the people who are giving you the information first hand and only publish things when those people give you the go ahead since they trust you not to publish things that are off the record so to say. I read your blog every morning mostly because of the discussion that you try to start thay I think are important to the future of the city. If you were to start posting purely rumors that never came to fruition then I would probably lose some of the respect that you have earned. I really hate for that to happen. There is nothing worse than to hear a rumor, on any media, only to hear a retraction just because someone wanted to get the story out first.

Good points CCOKC. Let me be clear: what I'm hearing is more than rumors about Whole Foods. I've heard from at least two well placed sources in the know that something is in the works but it's not a done deal yet. It's safe to say that every aspiring upscale retail developer has tried to lure Whole Foods to the dance. But what I'm hearing is one actually has the girl contemplating what tune should be played.
This differs from KWTV, which reported the dance is already underway. Paint me between OKC Biz and KWTV: I agree KWTV jumped the gun and probably got the story wrong, but I'm not buying what WF corporate spokespeople are saying either. I had a good discussion about this with Heidi at OKC Biz after her report came out and we were both bewildered that KWTV apparently didn't have any contact with WF corporate before going with their story.
I appreciate the trust you place in me, and will consider this conversation carefully in how it applies to what we do. I've tried to be as open as possible here, and honestly, I do think there are challenges to traditional media involving not just bloggers (and sites like this) but also paycheck infotainment orgs like TMZ that have our industry sometimes questioning our base values.

I think premature news articles about deals that haven't been inked have the potential to kill deals.

I heard about the reporting gaffe on the lost ogle but what exactly did News 9 put out there that Whole Foods was indeed coming to OKC? I read the bit in OKC Biz but found that News 9 had taken down any link to its report on its website. So if anybody knows that would be great!

In development there is usually some negotiation prior to the letter of intent followed by a lot more negotiation. And I mean possibly months or even years in some cases even though the letter of intent always proclaims firstly and boldly that it is non-binding.

And non-binding definitely means non-binding.

Once there is an executed letter of intent then the contract negotiations begin. This can also take a long while.

If the contract is executed then the march to closing begins. This process involves more parties some of whom can kill the entire deal at some point along the way.

If you can ever get to closing then it becomes possible for actual infrastructure and site development and eventual building construction to occur. But it is only potential and there are all kinds of contingencies that have to be achieved. For instance financing may be a contingency or acquiring some additional governmental permits.

If you get so far as actual work being done on site then you'd think you could say with certainty that so-an-so is going to open but that is not necessarily the case.

Up until so-and-so actually opens for business it isn't really possible to say they will.

And that assumes you have the actual permission of so-and-so to even publicly announce such fact which usually you do not.

Flintysooner, you are dead on in detailing how this works.

WF responded quite positively when they got blasted last week by tons of Twitterer's asking for an OKC store (which was right before KWTV launched their story). Let's do another blast on their website page that asks for store locations, use 73118 which is the zip code of the Classen Curve/Western Ave. area.

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/company/contact_submit.php

Buy good beer at your neighborhood liquor store, put in the refrigerator for a few hours, take to party, problem solved. It's not that difficult.

It's not just because you have to wait, it's also because it has been stored warm for who knows how long. Some won't export to OK, because they can't be stored at retail at desired temperatures anywhere in the state.

Flintysooner, you are dead on in detailing how this works. PLEASE, just let it be before I go up in smoke/6 ft under!!

Whole Foods has a HUGE beer selection, cold and ready to go. They can't do that here.
Not in all markets, I know Boston still has the old package store concept and no (store bought) beer is available anywhere but the package store.


...and THAT is the point of the 3.2 OK law. It isn't about which Keystone Light is stronger. It is that we prefer beer that is better (and stronger by fact) then Keystone and Bud Light.
The liquor store lobby are strong in Oklahoma and blocks any attempt that might cause some of them more competition or cost them more money to operate. In the past they have fought with others when they try to do in-store events that are common place elsewhere. You can also bet the domestic producer distributors fight it as well since they have a somewhat "captive" audience with their "grocery store beer" and most don't sell product in liquor stores.

I can't really tell too much difference between 3.2 and the higher versions of "grocery store beer" but then I don't drink the major domestics much, if I can help it.

Minnesota has two "Whole Foods", with no liquor being sold in any grocery stores, Whole Foods included.

Minnesota grocery stores have non-refrigerated 3.2 beer only. The liquor stores do sell refrigerated beer of all types. Not much different then what we have in Ok.

So we have eliminated the OK liquor law as being an excuse.

Enough about the liquor laws already, it doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand....

The liquor store lobby are strong in Oklahoma and blocks any attempt that might cause some of them more competition or cost them more money to operate. In the past they have fought with others when they try to do in-store events that are common place elsewhere. You can also bet the domestic producer distributors fight it as well since they have a somewhat "captive" audience with their "grocery store beer" and most don't sell product in liquor stores.

All I want is to be able to pick up a decent beer that's ALREADY COLD. I don't want to have to wait until it chills. Ridiculous law. Liquor stores would sell a ton more beer if they could sell it chilled.

Some don't want to invest in their businesses, coolers aren't as cheap as some of the owners. North Penn Liquor (Hefner & Penn) used to have a store "next door" that had an immersion cooler that would chill a bottle of wine or beer rather quickly.

All I want is to be able to pick up a decent beer that's ALREADY COLD. I don't want to have to wait until it chills. Ridiculous law. Liquor stores would sell a ton more beer if they could sell it chilled.

Laws and regulations are for your safety.

Laws and regulations are for your safety.

some are. . . some aren't. . . some are the results of extremely strong lobbies.

. . . some are the results of extremely strong lobbies.

I would say most are.

lots of silly laws have no lobby behind them. It is left to your imagination how many may come on the heels of a donor's Re-elect my guy contribution

Laws and regulations are for your safety.

Really? Sure we all want to keep melamine out of the milk. But I tend to believe that most laws not directly and clearly in the interest of public safety (i.e. the behavior directly endangers other people/consumers) are in place to satisfy, by force, someone's sense of morality and to control the populous through social engineering.

Laws and regulations are for your safety.

There is nothing about banning chilled beer at liquor stores that makes me safer. If that were the case, we'd ban cold beer sales all together.

Went to the Whole Foods in Prestonwood section of Dallas this past weekend. It blows the Tulsa store out of the water. I sure hope if/when we get a Whole Foods, that it is more like the full-size stores instead of the one in Tulsa, although I'll be thankful for any Whole Foods we get.

Yep, that is the Whole Foods right next to my old house before my OKC relocation. I would kill to get it here in north of downtown part of town.

Sorry, but without reading 10 pages of discussion, is or isnt Whole Foods coming to OKC?
thanks!

> without reading 10 pages of discussion, is or isnt Whole Foods coming to OKC?

Even if you read it, the answer remains the same: perhaps, some day.

Sorry, but without reading 10 pages of discussion, is or isnt Whole Foods coming to OKC?
thanks!

Summary: No official announcement has been made, however reputable people and evidence keeps piling up behind the scenes that we could see an official announcement in the very near future.

imagiNATIVEamerica.com classen curve (http://imaginativeamerica.com/tag/classen-curve/) - This guy makes a good point why whole foods in classen curve might not work..

Sorry if this has been posted, but this OkcBiz 8/31/09 report (http://okc.biz/article/08-31-2009/Whole_Foods_corporate_No_plans_for_Oklahoma_City_s tore.aspx) reads as though Whole Foods isn't coming anytime soon.


Whole Foods corporate: No plans for Oklahoma City store

Responding to online reports stating Oklahoma City would land a Whole Foods Market, a corporate spokesperson told okc.biz just the opposite.

“We do not have any plans at the moment for a store in Oklahoma City,” Laura Zappi, associate marketing coordinator for Whole Foods Market Southwest, said. “I will … update in case we have any new information in the future.”