I have been hearing some talk that Whole Foods is going to put another another store in the OKC region somehwere because of how well they have done with their one store. Has anybody else heard anything about this? I would suspect Norman and Edmond would be on the list, but I would guess Edmond would get it before Norman because of the money. With that said, we really need something better than what we got in Norman. I hear Crest and Sunflower market are coming to Norman also. I would suspect with the University here, a Whole Foods investment would do well.

Anybody know anything?

I have been hearing some talk that Whole Foods is going to put another another store in the OKC region somehwere because of how well they have done with their one store. Has anybody else heard anything about this? I would suspect Norman and Edmond would be on the list, but I would guess Edmond would get it before Norman because of the money. With that said, we really need something better than what we got in Norman. I hear Crest and Sunflower market are coming to Norman also. I would suspect with the University here, a Whole Foods investment would do well.

Anybody know anything?


This article from okcBIZ says Moore is agressively pursuing a Whole Foods. I'm not sure of the likelihood of that happening though.

http://okc.biz/oklahoma/article-6204-moore-means-business.html

Moore doesn't seem like a Whole Foods type of place...

Moore doesn't seem like a Whole Foods type of place...

Dinna seem like a Warren Theater - IMAX / Hollie's / Harley D place either ... until it was.

Dinna seem like a Warren Theater - IMAX / Hollie's / Harley D place either ... until it was.

All those seem to fit much more than Whole Foods, imo, but who knows?

I think Whole Foods would fit more in Norman.

If moore is going after it then you can count on it never getting to Norman. Moore steals every decent business away from Norman. They are the bully big brother.

If moore is going after it then you can count on it never getting to Norman. Moore steals every decent business away from Norman. They are the bully big brother.

More like little brother, they are half the size.

OK, Moore is the little brother that can beat up the older brother. Everybody is embarrassed for the big brother. lol

Incentives make a big difference in location, that is why Ikea is in Centennial instead of Denver or why they are in Round Rock instead of Austin and why Cabela's is in Buda....or why Bass Pro is in Bricktown instead of further down I-40 by the outlet mall. I can see Whole Foods going into Moore if they are offering incentives. I think they are locating one in a depressed area of Detroit because of the incentives the city provided.

If moore is going after it then you can count on it never getting to Norman. Moore steals every decent business away from Norman. They are the bully big brother.

Wow, really?

Moore is not a Whole Foods type of place. Sam's all the way, baby.

Moore is not a Whole Foods type of place. Sam's all the way, baby.

You are probably right... I would prefer a Costco over Whole Lotta Money Foods

I like whole foods but a Costco in Moore would be a much better fit for the OKC area.

While there are several businesses I would rather see in Moore first (Costco for starters), it actully would make a lot of sense for Whole foods to put a store in south Moore. They would draw not only from the Moore residents in the area, but from Norman and South OKC (specifically the 73170 zip) as well. Add to that the Moore city government's propensity to give incentives to businesses they want in their town, and Moore is a logical choice for a lot of the retail we would like to see in the metro.

Their CEO is in town today, and informed the OKC store that the second store was being put in and that he'd be in Norman later this afternoon scouting locations with realtors as it is their ideal location. College education is their most important demographic, not income. He said it could take up to 36 months after securing a spot and he was very picky. I think the official announcement won't be til October when their FY ends.

Here's an article from Architect magazine referring to a Salon article about the "Whole Foods Effect" on urban locations and what they hope it brings to Detroit.

Architect - Can the Whole Foods Effect Be Repeated? (http://www.architectmagazine.com/urban-development/can-the-whole-foods-effect-be-repeated.aspx)
Salon - Whole Foods is coming? Time to buy (http://www.salon.com/2012/05/05/whole_foods_is_coming_time_to_buy/singleton/)

Their CEO is in town today, and informed the OKC store that the second store was being put in and that he'd be in Norman later this afternoon scouting locations with realtors as it is their ideal location. College education is their most important demographic, not income. He said it could take up to 36 months after securing a spot and he was very picky. I think the official announcement won't be til October when their FY ends.

I think Norman's higher population than Edmond helped sway them as well. Also the current Whole Foods is closer to Edmond than Norman.

Whole Foods has changed their expansion strategy quite a bit since 2008, even in their home market of Austin there was only two stores, the flagship store under the HQ tower and the older, smaller store in North Austin that is now being replaced with the originally planned 80,000 sf store, they are also building smaller (35-45K stores) in other Austin area locations like the one near our old house in South Austin. That was a marked change from their original expansion before the fall of 2008 when almost every store they were planning was 70K+ in size. I could see another going into Edmond in a few years since the smaller, multiple store concept seems to be their main development direction.

The CEO apparently was NOT at all impressed by Norman, go figure (longhorn), and wants to look into Edmond/North area.

The CEO apparently was NOT at all impressed by Norman, go figure (longhorn), and wants to look into Edmond/North area.

When did you hear about this?

The CEO apparently was NOT at all impressed by Norman, go figure (longhorn), and wants to look into Edmond/North area.

Norman's one shot at making something truly upscale was UNP. They billed it as a lifestyle center, but its architecture and construction materials make it look like any run of the mill large strip mall. After looking there where else is there to look really if you're a Whole Foods. It's really quite sad what could have been and what is.

The CEO apparently was NOT at all impressed by Norman, go figure (longhorn), and wants to look into Edmond/North area.

Norman is great but it looks rough around the edges. Hopefully the CEO is not so stupid and shallow to be swayed by such cosmetic issues, because Norman has super demos for Whole Foods.

If they're going into the late, great Paris of the Midwest (Detroit), then they should go into Norman by gosh.

Norman's one shot at making something truly upscale was UNP. They billed it as a lifestyle center, but its architecture and construction materials make it look like any run of the mill large strip mall. After looking there where else is there to look really if you're a Whole Foods. It's really quite sad what could have been and what is.

not a shot at you .. per say ...

but the part of UNP that has been developed was NEVER called a lifestyle center ..... the lifestyle portion of UNP was always to come later ..

not a shot at you .. per say ...

but the part of UNP that has been developed was NEVER called a lifestyle center ..... the lifestyle portion of UNP was always to come later ..

That's not correct. When UNP was pitched, it was constantly billed as the entire thing, even from the initial PUD, being high-quality development. Phases have always been a part of this, but it was never planned that Phase 1's quality of material composition be lower than other components of UNP.

From June 22, 2005, President Boren's comments to the City Council about the proposed UNP. With respect to the area near Robinson, he talks about gateway arches, an elevated clock tower, serpentine roads, and elegant design. He compares the whole thing, from the very beginning, to Utica Square. We did end up with the curvy street:

http://normantranscript.com/local/x518914984/Boren-pitches-for-University-Park-TIF


"The first phase would be a 280-acre Planned Unity Development or PUD, with the center portion in a Main Street/University Commons type style. A clock tower would anchor the center, with fountains, statues and lush landscaping creating pedestrian-friendly spaces around small boutique-type stores.

"A serpentine drive at about 24th Street NE would wind through the middle of the development.

"'We're looking at the clock tower for a vertical element,' said Randy Stone, group manager for Carter-Burgess Architecture, saying it would be the destination point in the development and be visible from the interstate.

"Gateway arches similar to those at OU and other university-like elements would welcome visitors to the area, Boren said.

"'Something that has a beauty to it,' he said, saying that improving the area helps the university as well."

And here's the developer's pitch to the TIF Committee. They directly compare the development to Desert Ridge Marketplace in Phoenix. Tell me that anything in UNP looks anything remotely like that or ever will:

http://normantranscript.com/local/x518919160/TIF-committee-hears-master-plan


1685

Here's the developer talking about how UNP, not phase 1 or phase 2, just UNP in general, needs to have a sense of place on par with developments in KC and Dallas. I'm sorry, but nothing I have seen in UNP even approaches that:

http://normantranscript.com/local/x518918527/Developer-pitches-ideas-to-TIF-group


"Some of the restaurants on his target list included P.F. Chang's China Bistro, Fleming's Steak House, Wolfgang Puck's Express and the Cheesecake Factory.

"A portion of the long list of retailers to be targeted includes Talbot's, LL Bean, Banana Republic, Joseph A. Banks, Victoria's Secret, JoAnn Fabrics, Dick's Sporting Goods, Comp USA, Apple Computers, Whole Foods Marketplace, Dean and Deluca, Restoration Hardware, Harry and David, Sharper Image, Ethan Allen, Bombay, Williams-Sonoma, Pottery Barn and Crate and Barrel."

Right here is the plan where they refer to the current development as a "lifestyle center." They have all the store development lumped under that heading. From 2006:

http://normantranscript.com/local/x518950668/TIF-project-plan-recommended


If you go out and get a copy of the master plan, the "lifestyle center" was originally supposed to be part of Phase 1. It was designated Phase 1B. 1A was roads and infrastructure and a few things like that. What keeps happening is the developer keeps going to the council and keeps getting relief... over and over again. Either that or you're telling me we're still in Phase 1A. Either way it's horrible.

At this point the true lifestyle center is probably out at some theoretical phase 47. People shouldn't put up with that. And you know what, regardless of what phase the 'true' lifestyle center was supposed to begin it, it is very clear from reading through the above that the entire development was supposed to be high quality construction... just with varying levels of retail. I don't feel like they've delivered on any of that.

Anyway, I've just remembered this isn't the UNP thread so I will end my rant now.

If they're going into the late, great Paris of the Midwest (Detroit), then they should go into Norman by gosh.

They're also building one in Jackson, MS.

1-bag and 100 bucks later , you can keep your whole foods all to yourselves Nichols Hills. Dumbest thing I've ever done in my lifewas trying that place out.

Anyway, I've just remembered this isn't the UNP thread so I will end my rant now.

In complete fairness, that center was coming on-line just as the national economy went into meltdown and retailers were consolidating and going out of business right and left.

They had to shape the development around the tenants they could get.

I'm very sure they wanted a different type of development as well, but in retail development, timing is everything.

I love how so many businesses have been opening up in Moore. I also love Whole Foods and hope it comes to Moore. I have many food intolerances and allergies and find that WF's has a better selection than any other market for organic, fresh, and gluten free foods. My husband even loves WF's and he doesn't care about health and nutrition at all.

$525,000 building permit today to remodel Whole Foods.

Not sure what is changing, but half a million is a bunch of money for a store that is already finished out.

Perhaps they are adding a new section of some sort?

It said building remodel.

You think it might have something to do with opening the back side up for a view of the river they redid?

Anyone else hearing Trader Joe's rumors to Nichols Hill Plaza?

Anyone else hearing Trader Joe's rumors to Nichols Hill Plaza?

I heard that Chesapeake may have given up on the idea of operating the market themselves and have been looking for an outside operator.

Trader Joe's would make sense if they can get them; TJ's might be tempted if they get the same sort of massive concessions CHK was rumored to provide WF.


That's a huge hole they've left in NH Plaza and the City of Nichols Hills is bleeding a ton of sales tax revenue -- something needs to happen there soon.

It's an inside remodel, was pushed til Feb/Mar because the wine law decision. Business is continually outpacing the original planned store even after a year and the 2nd site's feet are dragging. More room in needed in certain sections than others. Tulsa #2 is slated to open this May and OKC #2 (TBD) would be 2015 at the earliest.

It's an inside remodel, was pushed til Feb/Mar because the wine law decision. Business is continually outpacing the original planned store even after a year and the 2nd site's feet are dragging. More room in needed in certain sections than others. Tulsa #2 is slated to open this May and OKC #2 (TBD) would be 2015 at the earliest.

Any idea where the second site would be located?

We need the Market street grocery store chain to move into the OKC area…. There are several in the DFW area. It’s sort of like Whole foods but not near as pricey.
It’s an off shoot of United Grocery stores based in Lubbock.

OU48A,
Are you talking about the Central Market (one is located in Plano on Coit Road)? It is excellent but I don't remember the prices. Much nicer than Whole Foods in my opinion.
C. T.

We need the Market street grocery store chain to move into the OKC area…. There are several in the DFW area. It’s sort of like Whole foods but not near as pricey.
It’s an off shoot of United Grocery stores based in Lubbock.

OU48A,
Are you talking about the Central Market (one is located in Plano on Coit Road)? It is excellent but I don't remember the prices. Much nicer than Whole Foods in my opinion.
C. T.

No, they are 2 different grocery stores.

Market Street is a very nice chain of grocery stores, but it’s owned by Lubbock based United Supermarkets. It’s probably a steep below Whole foods, but it’s much nicer than anything we have in Norman.

Central Market is a true gourmet grocery store chain owned by the San Antonio based H-E-B Grocery Company. Central market is at least as nice as Whole foods. I have only been once. I couldn’t really tell you anything about their prices but its pretty fancy for this country boy. Most Texans are familiar with HEB.


I believe Market Street would do well in the right locations in Edmond, Norman, and OKC.
But I am not real sure why we don’t have a better grocery store situation in central Oklahoma other than perhaps we are not prosperous enough to be attractive to high end grocery stores.
To me this is a quality of life issue.

No, they are 2 different grocery stores.

Market Street is a very nice chain of grocery stores, but it’s owned by Lubbock based United Supermarkets. It’s probably a steep below Whole foods, but it’s much nicer than anything we have in Norman.

Central Market is a true gourmet grocery store chain owned by the San Antonio based H-E-B Grocery Company. Central market is at least as nice as Whole foods. I have only been once. I couldn’t really tell you anything about their prices but its pretty fancy for this country boy. Most Texans are familiar with HEB.


I believe Market Street would do well in the right locations in Edmond, Norman, and OKC.
But I am not real sure why we don’t have a better grocery store situation in central Oklahoma other than perhaps we are not prosperous enough to be attractive to high end grocery stores.
To me this is a quality of life issue.

... again, I'm sure I'm exposing myself to be a philistine, but I really like Crest Market (or whatever the name is) on South May. It feels kind of upscale without being a niche market.

... again, I'm sure I'm exposing myself to be a philistine, but I really like Crest Market (or whatever the name is) on South May. It feels kind of upscale without being a niche market.

Crest Market is awesome but it's just one store. That is the type of store that is the standard in most cities. If Crest were to open several more throughout the metro we would be in much better shape. I wonder why Homeland doesnt remodel some of its other stores to be like the one on N May and Britton. Going into that store and then going into the one on N May and 122nd its hard to believe its even the same chain. Uptown Grocery and Buy for Less on NW Expressway are also decent.

The bottom line is OKC has too stiff competition from Wal-Mart for a major competing chain to enter the market. The only thing that could change this is selling wine in grocery store giving a competing chain an area of profitability and leverage against Wal-Mart. Other cities seem to have good grocery stores even in states that don't allow wine but they also don't have the Wal-Mart saturation we have here. Without wine sales, the best we can hope for is Crest to continue to expand and/or Homeland to step up it's game.

As for changing wine laws, is there any news on that front?

It's an inside remodel, was pushed til Feb/Mar because the wine law decision. Business is continually outpacing the original planned store even after a year and the 2nd site's feet are dragging. More room in needed in certain sections than others. Tulsa #2 is slated to open this May and OKC #2 (TBD) would be 2015 at the earliest.

Mr. Fritter works close to WF and eats there often for lunch. He is pretty friendly with one of the concierges there who told him they are expanding the produce area, and moving some other more containable shelving areas (bulk foods, etc.) to other parts of the store. The $525,000 is probably to help make way for and retrofit some new fixtures that they can move on the interior. To my knowledge, they won't be making any expansion via external walls, but I could be wrong here.

While I think things have settled down since it first opened, most agree that WF completely underestimated the demand for their type of grocery in this market, and built only what they felt they could minimally get away with.

We'll see what happens.

Thanks for the info.!


One of the big reasons that WF came in with a smaller store was that OKC was not necessarily a priority but they were recruited very hard by Chesapeake and the Chamber of Commerce, and given what I understand to be enormous incentives.

So, I think they were a bit reluctant but didn't want to pass up a great deal.

If they had really been scouting OKC hard I believe they would have had more of an initial commitment.

Thanks for the info.!


One of the big reasons that WF came in with a smaller store was that OKC was not necessarily a priority but they were recruited very hard by Chesapeake and the Chamber of Commerce, and given what I understand to be enormous incentives.

So, I think they were a bit reluctant but didn't want to pass up a great deal.

If they had really been scouting OKC hard I believe they would have had more of an initial commitment.

It seems like a lot of retailers underestimate OKC because the density statistics are so misleading. A lot of companies don't take into account OKC's vast amound undeveloped land makes it look like its a lower density city than it is and also they don't take into account how spread out the wealth is vs it all being in one area of the city.

Yes, and when we do get a national retailer, we tend to blow their projections out of the water.

Still, they all have their real estate people who adhere to strict guidelines and they don't want to take the risk of looking past the density and lower income numbers. They only tend to look at income rather than disposable income; the latter being plentiful due to the low cost of living.

Yes, and when we do get a national retailer, we tend to blow their projections out of the water.

Still, they all have their real estate people who adhere to strict guidelines and they don't want to take the risk of looking past the density and lower income numbers. They only tend to look at income rather than disposable income; the latter being plentiful due to the low cost of living.

They also probably fail to realize that we will drive ANYWHERE in the metro for something. We are very car focused, and don't mind jumping in the car to drive across town, especially with our limited traffic flow problems.

They also probably fail to realize that we will drive ANYWHERE in the metro for something. We are very car focused, and don't mind jumping in the car to drive across town, especially with our limited traffic flow problems.

I think that whole foods is over priced. There are some specialty things that i buy at whole foods but I prefer Sprouts on 63rd & May. Similar items but normal prices. I used to especially like the spice selection at WF until the Savory Spice store opened on N. Western. I go there now for Fresh spices.

Hopefully the success of Whole Foods in a market that statistics "experts" didn't think it would work causes other retailers to second guess their market research methods when dealing with OKC. It's a unfortunate most national retailers locate in Tulsa before OKC when expanding into Oklahoma.

i suggested several years ago for them to come to norman ok. they blew us off and went to okc instead,
meanwhile several natural foods have moved into norman area and are making a killing!!
next on the horizon is the chain Sunflower Market,,,

too bad while foods!!!!:Smiley181

Sunflowers has change there name to Sprout's after the two companies merge.

I think that whole foods is over priced. There are some specialty things that i buy at whole foods but I prefer Sprouts on 63rd & May. Similar items but normal prices. I used to especially like the spice selection at WF until the Savory Spice store opened on N. Western. I go there now for Fresh spices.

Similar is not the same. Sprouts to me is a step down from Sunflower. I went there three times after the change over and I was decidedly nonplussed. Sunflower was a reasonable facsimile to WF on a budget, but Sprouts is actually worse. Why? I don't know. But the diversity of merchandise declined and overall the store is a bit of a miss.

i suggested several years ago for them to come to norman ok. they blew us off and went to okc instead,
meanwhile several natural foods have moved into norman area and are making a killing!!
next on the horizon is the chain Sunflower Market,,,

too bad while foods!!!!:Smiley181

It's not Sunflower. Sunflower is kaput. It was swallowed up by Sprouts and Sprouts is not as good.

odd, it seemed pretty much the same to me when i visited the 63rd & may location this past weekend. -M

Nope. Sunflower has indeed been ruined by Sprouts. A lot less selection, stores are dirtier, overall, quick downward spiral.

I probably didn't notice...I shop at the belle isle walmart fairly often =(

It's not Sunflower. Sunflower is kaput. It was swallowed up by Sprouts and Sprouts is not as good.

As a former frequent shopper at the Sunflower in Edmond, I agree with this assessment. Very disappointing.

Strange... the Sprouts here in the Phoenix area are very clean and seem to have a very similar selection to Sunflowers that I have been in. I would say overall they are nicer than any Sunflower I have been in (Santa Fe and Phoenix area).

Maybe you guys should give them another 6 months to transition? It's only been what 3 or 4 since they were fully changed over?