I can't believe I failed to properly contextualize the Crest Fresh Market in SW OKC. It's truly the best grocery retailer in OKC. Went there again today. Wow!

Yes, in spite of metro's continued observations that everything in Tulsa is dead and about out of business the Tulsa Whole Foods is expanding for the second time. Now they are taking over the gift shop and pharmacy that were next door. The store will go all the way over to the liquor store. They look to be adding 50-60% more space, I would guess the store will be 45-50,000 square feet when they are done.

Also, according to the Tulsa Whole Foods facebook page the company will again be looking at a south Tulsa store once the OKC store is open.

I also hear that OKC's aquarium and Dave & Busters outdraw their Tulsa area counterparts as well

Having the liquor/wine store adjacent to the WF in Tulsa is really convenient. Will there be any other retail space next to the one in OKC? A similar setup would be nice since our laws don't allow for them to be in the same place.

Yes, in spite of metro's continued observations that everything in Tulsa is dead and about out of business the Tulsa Whole Foods is expanding for the second time. Now they are taking over the gift shop and pharmacy that were next door. The store will go all the way over to the liquor store. They look to be adding 50-60% more space, I would guess the store will be 45-50,000 square feet when they are done.

Also, according to the Tulsa Whole Foods facebook page the company will again be looking at a south Tulsa store once the OKC store is open.

Another diatribe from our Tulsa poster wanting sympathy. Relax bro, I rarely bash on Tulsa (look at all the positive posts I post in the actual Tulsa section of this website). I stated factual observation from my 5-6 trips a year to the Tulsa WF. It usually is pretty slow everytime I'm in there. Doesn't mean the store is failing, never said that. Glad to hear it is expanding as it is only good news for Oklahoma as a whole.

I thought we had a separate "liquor lobby" thread but I guess not.
Here is a story from today's Denver Business Journal about their liquor lobby legislation in Colorado.

Denver Business Journal - Sides far apart in quest for Colorado liquor-sales changes (http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2010/08/23/daily17.html)

For those who might be hoping that having Whole Foods might lead to also having a Trader Joe's this makes it look very unlikely unless we all start subscribing to Gourmet magazine.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/20/news/companies/inside_trader_joes_full_version.fortune/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote

For those who might be hoping that having Whole Foods might lead to also having a Trader Joe's this makes it look very unlikely unless we all start subscribing to Gourmet magazine.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/20/news/companies/inside_trader_joes_full_version.fortune/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote

Thanks for that link. That was a fascinating article on the "Secret World of Trader Joe's." After reading that from Fortune, I'm even more surprised they could open a store in Omaha. If distribution is a "problem" in Texas and Florida, how can they easily do Nebraska?

The relevant paragraph about new stories in an otherwise very long article:


"This distribution process helps determine where the company opens its stores. Texas and Florida have cities that boast consumers Trader Joe's covets, but insiders say the current distribution infrastructure makes it difficult for the company to efficiently get products to those states. To pick their next locales, employees look at demographics such as education level. In the past they've even looked at who's subscribing to high-end food and cooking magazines as a way of divining where the epicures are."

I also came across this in a comment at the end of that article. It's a store and concept that I wasn't familiar with but looks interesting.

http://www.junglejims.com/

I also came across this in a comment at the end of that article. It's a store and concept that I wasn't familiar with but looks interesting.

http://www.junglejims.com/

What the....

It looks like a Grocery Store Chuck E Cheese. I think it would be cool if they had a ball pit in the fruit aisle.

Another diatribe from our Tulsa poster wanting sympathy. Relax bro, I rarely bash on Tulsa (look at all the positive posts I post in the actual Tulsa section of this website). I stated factual observation from my 5-6 trips a year to the Tulsa WF. It usually is pretty slow everytime I'm in there. Doesn't mean the store is failing, never said that. Glad to hear it is expanding as it is only good news for Oklahoma as a whole.

Hey Mr. PR pro, you might want to look up diatribe, I'm not sure it means what you think it means.

I thought we had a separate "liquor lobby" thread but I guess not.
Here is a story from today's Denver Business Journal about their liquor lobby legislation in Colorado.

Denver Business Journal - Sides far apart in quest for Colorado liquor-sales changes (http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2010/08/23/daily17.html)

Not sure what happened to that thread. I'm just saying there are ways to get around the law and WF in Tulsa being adjacent to a large, upscale liquor/wine store is almost like having it in the same place. You just have to walk outside (through a covered patio) and pay at two separate registers. You don't have to move your car though, and you could also go to the Food Pyramid (former Albertson's) next door.

. . also having a Trader Joe's this makes it look very unlikely unless we all start subscribing to Gourmet magazine.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/20/news/companies/inside_trader_joes_full_version.fortune/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote

Gourmet is no longer in publication. Really sad, it was a great magazine.

I also came across this in a comment at the end of that article. It's a store and concept that I wasn't familiar with but looks interesting.

http://www.junglejims.com/

A place to get wings and Cici's Pizza on site? Not exactly what we're pining for.

A place to get wings on site? Not exactly what we're pining for.

Speak for yourself. ;)

What the....

It looks like a Grocery Store Chuck E Cheese. I think it would be cool if they had a ball pit in the fruit aisle.

Exactly what I was thinking. I'd like to slide down a slide and get a gallon of milk at the end.

Not sure what happened to that thread. I'm just saying there are ways to get around the law and WF in Tulsa being adjacent to a large, upscale liquor/wine store is almost like having it in the same place. You just have to walk outside (through a covered patio) and pay at two separate registers. You don't have to move your car though, and you could also go to the Food Pyramid (former Albertson's) next door.
That is how the liquor stores next to the Costco's here in Austin are setup, other than sharing a parking lot and sharing a couple of common walls (with no doors connecting the spaces) there is no connection to Costco other than paying rent for the space. That was what the owner of the one at the South Austin "Costco" liquor store told me, the north side store is owned by another local guy renting space from Costco.

To me that is not "getting around the law" that is nothing more than operating legally within the framework of the law. Liquor stores locate in strip centers all the time and more than one are close to a 7-11 or some other store and many times you will see the same person going into both getting various items that go together, that is the ridiculous part about the Oklahoma law, not allowing them to sell cold beer or "accessories".

Thanks for that link. That was a fascinating article on the "Secret World of Trader Joe's." After reading that from Fortune, I'm even more surprised they could open a store in Omaha. If distribution is a "problem" in Texas and Florida, how can they easily do Nebraska?

The relevant paragraph about new stories in an otherwise very long article:


"This distribution process helps determine where the company opens its stores. Texas and Florida have cities that boast consumers Trader Joe's covets, but insiders say the current distribution infrastructure makes it difficult for the company to efficiently get products to those states. To pick their next locales, employees look at demographics such as education level. In the past they've even looked at who's subscribing to high-end food and cooking magazines as a way of divining where the epicures are."

I don't know if you've ever been to Omaha, but it's a pretty nice place with a lot of concentrated wealth. There are less people there but from what I saw, they aremore affluent than in OKC in the broad sense.

You know, I visited Trader Joe's after the fanfare here and elsewhere and found it to be less than everything and a bag of chips. No great loss that it's not here. WF is definitely the superior store.

Gourmet is no longer in publication. Really sad, it was a great magazine.

We'll just have to stick with Food and Wine then.

A place to get wings and Cici's Pizza on site? Not exactly what we're pining for.

Different people pine for different thing soonerguru. Are you speaking for everyone? If all you got out of looking at the website was wings and Cici's you didn't look too closely. I just said it looks interesting, I didn't say it should be our next big project to acquire. Surely you don't think that everyone in OKC will be shopping at Whole Foods. I might go there occasionally if looking for something special but it would never be a place for my main weekly shopping trips. It will just be too expensive for staples.

I don't know if you've ever been to Omaha, but it's a pretty nice place with a lot of concentrated wealth. There are less people there but from what I saw, they aremore affluent than in OKC in the broad sense.

Definitely, Omaha is a very wealthy city for its size. There are several F500 companies headquartered there and it's also a regional financial/business hub. I am not surprised they have a Trader Joe's and many of the other upscale stores they have for being a metro under 1 million.

Commentary: A grape idea
http://www.okgazette.com/article/08-25-2010/A_grape_idea.aspx

You know, I visited Trader Joe's after the fanfare here and elsewhere and found it to be less than everything and a bag of chips. No great loss that it's not here. WF is definitely the superior store.

I too prefer WF over TJ but I think the ones that prefer TJ's were because it is more affordable and would appeal to more of OKC's Walmart price driven shoppers.

I don't know if you've ever been to Omaha, but it's a pretty nice place with a lot of concentrated wealth. There are less people there but from what I saw, they aremore affluent than in OKC in the broad sense.

Hi Mug,

I didn't question Omaha as a site for Trader Joe's. I've posted about my trips to Omaha and how it's a great city. If you look at my post again I was questioning the company and what they said in the Forbes article about distribution in Texas and Florida being a problem. So I asked how can distribution to Texas and Florida can be a problem, but Nebraska is somehow convenient? Maybe I wasn't very clear, but I agree with you completely about the city of Omaha.

Different people pine for different thing soonerguru. Are you speaking for everyone? If all you got out of looking at the website was wings and Cici's you didn't look too closely. I just said it looks interesting, I didn't say it should be our next big project to acquire. Surely you don't think that everyone in OKC will be shopping at Whole Foods. I might go there occasionally if looking for something special but it would never be a place for my main weekly shopping trips. It will just be too expensive for staples.

Of course. I would never argue that people don't have different tastes. The point is that chicken wings and Cici's Pizza are widely available in OKC. We have like six Buffalo Wild Wings locations and several Cici's Pizza locations. My comment was that the activity associated with bringing Whole Foods and similar retailers raises the quality of life in OKC. Adding Cici's Pizza and chicken wings only adds to our collective obese image. Personally, I like a good chicken wing now and then.

Of course. I would never argue that people don't have different tastes. The point is that chicken wings and Cici's Pizza are widely available in OKC. We have like six Buffalo Wild Wings locations and several Cici's Pizza locations. My comment was that the activity associated with bringing Whole Foods and similar retailers raises the quality of life in OKC. Adding Cici's Pizza and chicken wings only adds to our collective obese image. Personally, I like a good chicken wing now and then.

And I suspect you've even had a pizza before?

And I suspect you've even had a pizza before?

Plenty. Happen to be a big fan of it, and Cici's is among the worst pizza I've ever eaten.

I'd suspect the vast majority of Oklahoma Citians would agree that CiCi's is terrible.... that's only a place you take your kids to get 'em fed quickly and to shut up.

Cicis is ok for the price...most of the time on the same level of most microwave frozen stuff. That said, there is a vast difference between pizza off the buffet and if you order one (if not already on the buffet)...not sure why it degrades so much so fast sitting on the buffet, but that is about the only way to explain it.

CiCi's is more of a quick service place than it is anything else. There whole goal is to crank out cookie cutter pizza's as fast as they can. Expecting great tasting gourmet pizza at CiCi's is like expecting top shelf seafood and steak at Golden Corral. CiCi's and Little Ceasars are the McDonald's and Burger King of the Pizza business.

Cicis is ok for the price...most of the time on the same level of most microwave frozen stuff. That said, there is a vast difference between pizza off the buffet and if you order one (if not already on the buffet)...not sure why it degrades so much so fast sitting on the buffet, but that is about the only way to explain it.

Umm, yeah, sorry for the continuation of hijacking this thread but Cici's is not that bad. Compared to Pizza Hut, Little Ceasar's and Mazzios, a pepperoni pizza from Cici's is pretty darn good--especially for hangovers (packed with a crapload of grease)! And I like it because, yeah, it's only 15 minutes tops to wait for a pizza to be made. If I want primo pizza, I'll do Papa John's (which actually, if you pick one up, it's only a 20 minute wait).

I'd agree that the buffet isn't all that great but they sure are popular. There's one in the shopping center where I work and from 2-4pm when they have $2 all you can eat buffet, that place is PACKED!

Sweet Jesus what does Cici's have to do with Whole Foods? Threadjack over. Start a Cici's Pizza thread if debating the quality of that subpar restaurant is interesting to you.

Sweet Jesus what does Cici's have to do with Whole Foods? Threadjack over. Start a Cici's Pizza thread if debating the quality of that subpar restaurant is interesting to you.

YO! DID YOU NOT SEE THE FIRST SENTENCE??? Chill!!

Sweet Jesus what does Cici's have to do with Whole Foods? Threadjack over. Start a Cici's Pizza thread if debating the quality of that subpar restaurant is interesting to you.

Well, since it looks like YOU were the one that mentioned CiCi's in conjunction with Whole Foods to begin with, don't see blaming the rest of us for following the stream-of-consciousness of the thread...just saying...


A place to get wings and Cici's Pizza on site? Not exactly what we're pining for.

seriously can we get back to WF? I keep checking the thread since it shows updates hoping someone has found renderings or something and still griping about CiCi's.

If I want primo pizza, I'll do Papa John's

God help you. Where do you go to get a "primo" steak? Chili's? In the real world Papa John's is barely passable cheap delivery pizza and Cici's is garbage that's isn't worth putting into your mouth for any price, even free.

I'm thinking you aren't Whole Foods target audience.

I'm thinking you aren't Whole Foods target audience.

How long did it take you to reach that conclusion about some posters on here?

Visited the new WF in Dallas (near Northpark) - huge store! They were having a party (live music, free hamburgers) but inside they not only had a tremendous selection of wine/beer (600 + kinds of beer! A cold beer aisle that made me never want to leave!), but they had free wine tastings - three of them! I know we won't have that here (thanks liquor lobby!) but it really was a cool store. Kind of funky parking, site plan, but any grocery store that has a bar area with draft beer is OK with me!

That's there flagship store Parklane. Very nice.

It will more than likely be the last one of that type they build for quite awhile. I know the proposed store in The Domain here was supposed to be similar to the Downtown Austin store under the HQ tower and the Park Lane store but there is talk that it might shrink. It would still be bigger than The Gateway store is is slated to replace and bigger than the other stores recently announced near me in South Austin, Lakeway and The Hill Country Galleria. Those three stores are supposed to be right about the same size as the OKC store.

I am curious to know what Okc or Tulsa WF would do if Oklahoma were to ever change their ABLE laws? Would they expand their stores or would they be able to make room in their existing stores?

I don't think that Oklahoma is that far off from offering wine and chilled high alcohol beer in grocery stores.

... I don't think that Oklahoma is that far off from offering wine and chilled high alcohol beer in grocery stores.

Odd, as it's crossed my mind a time or three that we're probably as far away, if not further away, than we were used to be.
Some powerful groups don't want the status quo changed. As more and more term limited folks go, the power of the lobby groups will increase, not decrease.
We're on the brink of an all time high of social conservatism in state leadership.
This is not exactly a perfect storm for installing far more convenient access to stronger adult beverages.

I could be wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

Odd, as it's crossed my mind a time or three that we're probably as far away, if not further away, than we were used to be.
Some powerful groups don't want the status quo changed. As more and more term limited folks go, the power of the lobby groups will increase, not decrease.
We're on the brink of an all time high of social conservatism in state leadership.
This is not exactly a perfect storm for installing far more convenient access to stronger adult beverages.

I could be wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

Man, this really frustrates me, people attributing our laws against selling wine in grocery stores to "social conservatives." It's not that at all. As one of those crazy social conservatives, I fully support selling liquor and wine in stores.

As we've discussed before, the laws against wine/liquor in stores are in place because of the liquor lobby. They are very powerful. I believe the Gazette did a story on this a few months ago and how liquor store owners and their lobbyists are thwarting the sale of wine and liquor in stores because they think it will kill their business. We all know that reasoning is B.S., but that's why they're against it, at least ostensibly. If we really want to change the laws in this area, it's best to understand exactly who is opposing the changes and why.

Man, this really frustrates me, people attributing our laws against selling wine in grocery stores to "social conservatives." It's not that at all. As one of those crazy social conservatives, I fully support selling liquor and wine in stores.

As we've discussed before, the laws against wine/liquor in stores are in place because of the liquor lobby. They are very powerful. I believe the Gazette did a story on this a few months ago and how liquor store owners and their lobbyists are thwarting the sale of wine and liquor in stores because they think it will kill their business. We all know that reasoning is B.S., but that's why they're against it, at least ostensibly. If we really want to change the laws in this area, it's best to understand exactly who is opposing the changes and why.
I think we all know a social conservative or two that is not in favor of changing the current liquor laws unless it moves closer to prohibition. They are not who is behind the lobbying but they support the outcome. It's one of those politics makes for some strange bedfellows moments....

I think it is a combo of the strong liquor lobby and a good amount of folks who believe Footloose was set in the ideal city

Man, this really frustrates me, people attributing our laws against selling wine in grocery stores to "social conservatives." It's not that at all. As one of those crazy social conservatives, I fully support selling liquor and wine in stores.

As we've discussed before, the laws against wine/liquor in stores are in place because of the liquor lobby. They are very powerful. I believe the Gazette did a story on this a few months ago and how liquor store owners and their lobbyists are thwarting the sale of wine and liquor in stores because they think it will kill their business. We all know that reasoning is B.S., but that's why they're against it, at least ostensibly. If we really want to change the laws in this area, it's best to understand exactly who is opposing the changes and why.

Congrats to you. Most of the social conservatives I know are against alcohol of any kind, period. They are also against sex outside of marriage and just about anything else that is fun or provides the human host a pleasurable experience.

You're almost right about the liquor lobby, though. It's not really the liquor lobby, so much as it the distributors and wholesalers who have a racket and don't want to part with it. It is a joke. And the liquor stores are playing right into the hands of the distributors by opposing wine and beer in grocery stores. Joke.

Construction is well underway, with Smith and Pickel being the General Contractor. Still no architectural renderings of the Whole Foods. Would like to get a glimpse of what this project will look like, even if it is a rough draft sketch in black and white.

No renderings that I can find, but I found their construction webcam though:

http://oxblue.com/pro/open/smithandpickel/wholefoods

Very cool! This will be fun to watch.

I was by there today and saw what looked like architects and the g.c. on the job site all looking at the plans. I wanted to drive up to them and see if I could get a sneak peek of the elevation drawing.

DelCamino and others in the OKC planning department should be able to share the plans that have been filed.

Trader Joe's is getting closer, opening two stores in the Kansas City metro (one in Missouri, one in Kansas). The Kansas store will not sell high point beer/wine or liquor (Kansas law prohibits it). I could see them moving into OKC and Tulsa in the next few years.

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/09/15/2227372/trader-joes-coming-to-kc-area.html

I imagine things will start shaping up pretty soon. They poured a little bit of concrete "footing" (I think that's what it's called) last week. They have also graded and staked the site pretty well. I bet they start tying all that rebar any day now that's been sitting there for awhile. Some days it looks like they are going full steam and then you don't see anyone for days. This is the weirdest construction site ever. I also noticed Chesapeake had their surfs out putting Christmas lights on the trees this morning.

Being in California now, I have to admit it's jarring to see hard liquor within reach of small children in regular grocery stores.

Being in California now, I have to admit it's jarring to see hard liquor within reach of small children in regular grocery stores.

Why? Do you think that a small child is going to open a bottle of liquor and start downing it. I'm not sure why it would be a problem if a child was near unopened liquor.
OK's liquor laws are obviously a joke.

Being in California now, I have to admit it's jarring to see hard liquor within reach of small children in regular grocery stores.
Even in a fairly religiously conservative state like Indiana I was surprised to see it in every grocery store and pharmacy.

Congrats to you. Most of the social conservatives I know are against alcohol of any kind, period. They are also against sex outside of marriage and just about anything else that is fun or provides the human host a pleasurable experience.

You're almost right about the liquor lobby, though. It's not really the liquor lobby, so much as it the distributors and wholesalers who have a racket and don't want to part with it. It is a joke. And the liquor stores are playing right into the hands of the distributors by opposing wine and beer in grocery stores. Joke.

If most social conservatives you know are "against alcohol of any kind," then you live a very sheltered life and don't meet enough people. Saying most social conservatives are against alcohol is just dumb, and you can see that simply by going out on any given weekend and talking with people.

Also, I'm not "almost" right about the liquor lobby--I'm 100% right. I'm good friends with their main lobbyist and we discuss this often. What I said was almost straight from the lobbyist's mouth.

Why? Do you think that a small child is going to open a bottle of liquor and start downing it. I'm not sure why it would be a problem if a child was near unopened liquor.

I didn't say I had a problem with it, just that it was an odd sight that you didn't see in Oklahoma.

If most social conservatives you know are "against alcohol of any kind," then you live a very sheltered life and don't meet enough people. Saying most social conservatives are against alcohol is just dumb, and you can see that simply by going out on any given weekend and talking with people.

Also, I'm not "almost" right about the liquor lobby--I'm 100% right. I'm good friends with their main lobbyist and we discuss this often. What I said was almost straight from the lobbyist's mouth.

I think you're confusing "conservatives" with "social conservatives," you know, the folks who are against gays, sex education, video games, R-rated movies, etc. I have been surrounded by them my whole life. I'm quite familiar and completely unsheltered from them unfortunately, and they're not big liquor fans.

I didn't realize that CHK had not only torn down the Kensington apartments but also that small office building and funny little structure that spanned the creek just north of the Whole Foods site (shown in yellow).

I did read they received permission from the city to terrace that creek, similar to what they've done on their campus. That should make a great improvement to that area, as it's pretty much a drainage ditch now.

Still, I'm sorry to see that office building go. As I recall, it had an atrium inside of it.

http://www.tnttri.com/OKCTalk/aerial1b.jpg

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2629/R133040021001zA.jpg

I think that was the Reserve National Life building.