And why not offer them tax incentives like what was offered Bass Pro?

I think when held up against Bass Pro, it's easy to say "why not?". But I think we need to get away from doing this for retailers. We do have several locally owned specialty markets that sell high quality products. Whole Foods will probably be devastating to some of them, which is really why I am not that excited about the prospect of Whole Foods being here, but that's just my preference. Either way and in general, I'm just not comfortable with the idea of using public subsidies and incentives to compete against locally owned businesses and don't think we should be in the business of doing that, be it groceries or sporting goods. I think a Whole Foods should come to this market if and only if the market can support it without assistance. And if they don't come and we still have the demand, hopefully (and ideally, imo) the local specialty sector will thrive and continue to grow to fill all the needs of people demanding high quality food products.

steve just said it but I'll post his tweet since Im following him

Twitter / Whole Foods Market: @stevelackmeyer Yes, a lea ... (http://twitter.com/WholeFoods/status/13441561178)

Confirmed

More information please...

...it is a nice day outside, after all. ; )

If they locate at CC, they're going to have to compete with Crescent Market.

Crescent Market commands some serious loyalty in Nichols Hills. Folks have been shopping there for generations.

Then, by that reasoning, they'll be competing with Crescent Market no matter where they locate in OKC. At least for Nichols Hills shoppers...

So what difference does it make where they locate as long as there's plenty of parking and it doesn't take 2 hours to get there?


But I think we need to get away from doing this for retailers. We do have several locally owned specialty markets that sell high quality products. Whole Foods will probably be devastating to some of them, which is really why I am not that excited about the prospect of Whole Foods being here, but that's just my preference.

Yeah, it's going to be a shame to see many of them forced out of business if/when WF opens up here.. Hopefully some of them will be able to redirect their products to WF so we don't lose *all* locally-produced items..

So what difference does it make where they locate as long as there's plenty of parking and it doesn't take 2 hours to get there?

Exactly. If the advantage of CC is the NH market, and that means competing with an established specialty market, why not put it another location that is just as convenient to everyone else, has a good daytime density, and access to another high end housing market that isn't currently serviced by a nearby specialty market.

Exactly. If the advantage of CC is the NH market, and that means competing with an established specialty market, why not put it another location that is just as convenient to everyone else, has a good daytime density, and access to another high end housing market that isn't currently serviced by a nearby specialty market.

yeah, like Edmond :Smiley259

I think when held up against Bass Pro, it's easy to say "why not?". But I think we need to get away from doing this for retailers. We do have several locally owned specialty markets that sell high quality products. Whole Foods will probably be devastating to some of them, which is really why I am not that excited about the prospect of Whole Foods being here, but that's just my preference. Either way and in general, I'm just not comfortable with the idea of using public subsidies and incentives to compete against locally owned businesses and don't think we should be in the business of doing that, be it groceries or sporting goods. I think a Whole Foods should come to this market if and only if the market can support it without assistance. And if they don't come and we still have the demand, hopefully (and ideally, imo) the local specialty sector will thrive and continue to grow to fill all the needs of people demanding high quality food products.

Fair point. Can't disagree. But I still want to see Whole Foods come to town.

Steve,

This confirmation seems to rate higher than others, as it is coming from Whole Foods itself, am I correct?

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think you overestimate the amount of extra time and money people want to spend on grocery shopping, regardless of their age, education level or profession. It's just human nature.

MM,
Please define "human nature"..

Sooner, confirmation is from Whole Foods to me.

Are they confirming a location?

Exactly. If the advantage of CC is the NH market, and that means competing with an established specialty market, why not put it another location that is just as convenient to everyone else, has a good daytime density, and access to another high end housing market that isn't currently serviced by a nearby specialty market.

The advantage is more than just NH residents. It's an abundance of housetops, which DT is lacking. They aren't going to expect every customer to have to drive 15 minutes to get there. You guys make some decent points but retailers thnk otherwise. They still have to have lots of density and housetops nearby.

Onthestrip: Downtown's estimated population is actually around 6,000--including the housing developments that have existed since the 60s. The population of Nichols Hills is what, 5,000? Just saying. NH has 4 times more chimney stacks than they have rooftops.. (just an ironic way of weighing the incomes, by using a different metaphor for demographics). Obviously downtown has no chimneys, unless the Thomas Kincade wet dream at The Hill has fake ones, although the incomes are just as good and probably more disposable when you look at the empty nester and young single demographics.

It looks like this thread is part correct, part wrong. They may have gotten the date very close, with June 2011 sounding pretty reasonable if it's u/c right now and lease signed with Chesapeake. Obviously not downtown though.

I feel like "lease signed" is a confirmation that it is Chesapeake. WF does build and own their own stores in many cities, including Tulsa. However they said "lease signed" meaning someone else is building it for them. Last time I checked I was not aware of any shopping under construction in downtown, although the east end of Bricktown is seeing a lot of mysterious site work right now.. "lease signed" could only mean ONE thing -- Chesapeake.

You don't think it could be leasing land rather than building space?

No confirmation on location, but sources tell me it will be Classen Curve - not downtown.

There is no way 6,000 are living DT unless you include Heritage Hills and Mesta Park and I live DT and sit on the board of DT residents, Urban Neighbors. What exactly in Bricktown construction is "mysterious"? Everything goes through Bricktown Design Committee. The fire station is currently under construction if that's what you're referring to.

Site work is happening on both sides of Sheridan. The fire station is going in on the NW corner of Sheridan/Lincoln up against I-235, but the Steel Yards area on the south side of Sheridan also appeared to have site work going on last month? It vaguely seemed that one of those warehouses was gone?


You don't think it could be leasing land rather than building space?

You mean building on long-term leased land? That only happens in strange situations around the edge of town where land has been owned by one family for 100 years and they don't want to give up control forever.. so you sometimes (rarely) see these bizarre "100 year leases." That's one of the oddities of real estate, although these types of deals typically only happen in areas like Far SW OKC or Deer Creek, and not areas that are in the middle of the city like Nichols Hills or downtown.

A ground lease is not that unusual in all parts of the city.

Not downtown guys... I've got good intel here ... it's going to be Classen Curve

June 2011?

Wow... an article already, Steve!
http://newsok.com/article/3459103#ixzz0n5bIk9H6

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/whole-foods-confirms-oklahoma-city-lease/article/3459103?custom_click=headlines_widget)

Strike while the Iron is HOT!!

Nice work Steve.

Hey, I have a real chimney.

Thanks Steve. I trusted my source but I like yours better!

It will be interesting to see the WF building design and how it flows together with Classen Curve.

Anywhere north of Downtown please!

wait, Cinco De Mayo isn't the Mexican version of April Fools is it? j/k

I was wondering if that's why they'll have a lease. Maybe Aubrey wants to make sure the design works with Classen Curve.

Onthestrip: Downtown's estimated population is actually around 6,000--including the housing developments that have existed since the 60s. The population of Nichols Hills is what, 5,000? Just saying. NH has 4 times more chimney stacks than they have rooftops.. (just an ironic way of weighing the incomes, by using a different metaphor for demographics). Obviously downtown has no chimneys, unless the Thomas Kincade wet dream at The Hill has fake ones, although the incomes are just as good and probably more disposable when you look at the empty nester and young single demographics.

I just said that NH isn't the only neighborhood near CC. That was my point, that there are much more rooftops nearby and not just NH, there are plenty of others in a 5 mile radius. And no way 6,000 people live downtown.

Also, as someone mentioned already, ground leases aren't that uncommon. Many chain restaurants use them. That said, I think it'd be rare for a 40,000+ sf building to be ground leased.

onthestrip, quit spurting out facts....

on a sidenote, I hope they model the WF after the Park Lane store in Dallas

to the downtown crowd: Classen Curve is surely better for you than Edmond or Norman, right?

Of course Steve, and I'll be there frequently, and don't have to support Tulsa and Dallas' store anymore

Say good bye to "leakage"!

http://newsok.com/retail-experts-warn-of-oklahoma-citys-sales-drain/article/3453761

that there are much more rooftops nearby and not just NH, there are plenty of others in a 5 mile radius.

To be fair, a five mile radius from downtown would in fact include all of Heritage Hills, Mesta Park on up into Crown Heights. So, it would also be about more than just the number of people living downtown. And it would be more convenient for everyone who works downtown, for Norman, Midwest, and for Yukon. Downtown would be more convenient for more people, but, again, it may not be enough of the right people for Whole Foods.

Funny thing is that I live closer to Classen Curve, but it will be no more convenient than one downtown would be for me.

To those upset or less-than-enthused by this not being downtown, do you have any idea where Tulsa's is? It is WAY south of downtown at 41st and Peoria, so south of downtown, Cherry Street, Brookside and many would even say pushing the boundary of Midtown.

No reason to complain about the location everyone - we're getting a whole foods!!! Yay for us.:kicking:

To those upset or less-than-enthused by this not being downtown, do you have any idea where Tulsa's is? It is WAY south of downtown at 41st and Peoria, so south of downtown, Cherry Street, Brookside and many would even say pushing the boundary of Midtown.

Three miles is "WAY" south? It's in Brookside, in midtown, not at 81st and Lewis or anything like that (where Tulsa's second location was supposed be pre-economic melt down)

In any case, this is good news and way overdue.

One of the things that I have not seen mentioned is the fact that WF seems to do very well with their prepared foods. I always seek one out whenever in another state simply because it's easy to find a good/quick meal and plenty selection.

I am not sure what percentage of their sales are groceries but for this reason the CC area makes sense to me. With something like 2-3K people working within walking distance, this almost give CPK a "cafeteria".

Also, WF seems to be very flexible with their floorspace. I have seen them optimize with little room in the northeast, and have very large stores in strip malls in the northwest. I have seen them succeed in strip mall type areas that were miles from downtowns.

Congrats OKC. Well deserved!

It's great to finally have the official confirmation.

This is great news.... I am still going through WF withdrawals after having the Louisville KY store nearby for the last 6 months. I won't be an every day or even every week WF shopper, but we will definitely go at least a couple times a month. I think "my" type customer will be their real market and I would guess that is the case in most locations.

I'm fine with it being at Classen Curve. I'm in that neighborhood enough picking my dog up at Central Park that it won't be a big deal to stop there. I never really lusted after a Whole Foods downtown, and would really be happy with a small neighborhood market here. I'm just happy its not in Edmond where I would really have to drive a long distance and have no other reason to go.

Congrats Steve on your very exciting "scoop."

As many probably know by now, I do not usually advocate for specific streets in our streetcar planning. However, we are going into a "long-range" planing mode. I think that Classen Curve deserves to be considered a "anchor" destination for the extension of one of our Northern lines.

Rand Elliott has designed something that is architecturally stimulating and made of materials that will ensure that it is around for awhile. Classen Curve could very much be our modern "Utica Square."

Belle Isle was a major destination and source of power for the original streetcar system. It is not inconceivable that it gain relevance once again and be deserving of direct linkage to downtown via a Classen or Western Corridor.

Such a direct connection to a Whole Foods in the area could subsequently help resolve any remaining desire for one directly planted in downtown. "Food for thought" as these planning processes go forward.

Okay we're Okc is getting a Whole Foods.

So where will the second location be?

I am guessing Norman and Edmond gets the third.

To those upset or less-than-enthused by this not being downtown, do you have any idea where Tulsa's is? It is WAY south of downtown at 41st and Peoria, so south of downtown, Cherry Street, Brookside and many would even say pushing the boundary of Midtown.

WAY south? It's like a ten minute ride on Riverside drive from downtown, and it's in a hip, walkable mixed-use area. Quit knocking Tulsa. 41st and Peoria is certainly closer in than 63rd and Western.

Have you been to Whole Foods?

If you cook your own food regularly you will eventually become very frustrated in OKC with what you have to work with today. The difference in selection and quality of food and ingredients at, say, Homeland, and a Whole Foods is staggering.

This x 1,000,000.

Have you been to Whole Foods?

Yes



If you cook your own food regularly you will eventually become very frustrated in OKC with what you have to work with today. The difference in selection and quality of food and ingredients at, say, Homeland, and a Whole Foods is staggering.

If/when Whole Foods opens here, I will visit the store multiple times weekly.
My wife and I cook nearly every day. I still won't drive to the other side of town every week to shop at WF. Similarly, while I think the Warren is the best theater in the area, I don't drive to Moore to see every movie I go to either. It's not even about price, its about convenience and time. I don't have the time or the inclination to drive across town to shop at WF every week or two. Maybe every once in a while for something I can't find elsewhere, but nothing on a regular basis.


I also believe that once people see the quality of WF with it's outstanding selections of cheeses, produce, and quality meats and it's tremendous salad bar and cooking classes etc.. then people will want to go out of their way and shop for "quality" items. It won't be your run of the mill OKC supermarket. I also find that people with high education levels tend to have higher incomes and can afford to pay for quality. The saying is so true, "You get what you pay for" philosophy. People either want quality or they do not.
Look, I'm not trying to put down WF. I like the place. You don't have to sell me on it. I'm sure it will do great with the neighborhoods around it. I'm just saying that one WF in the metro centrally located won't draw a huge amount of regular business from the outlying areas such as Yukon, Mustang, Norman, Edmond, Del City or Midwest City. I live in far NW OKC but a downtown store would be very convenient for me because I work there. But if I didn't work DT (and I didn't up until the last year or so) I wouldn't even consider driving downtown, or to Classen curve on a regular basis to shop for groceries. This is just my opinion of course, but nobody I know in my well educated, professional, and very well-paid circle of friends and acquaintances would drive that far for groceries on a regular basis. I think it's fantastic that we are getting a WF and I very much hope that they plan for more locations to serve the more far-flung areas of the metro. I think our city could support it.


MM,
Please define "human nature"..
Google (and in this case Wikipedia) are your friend.
From Human nature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nature)
"Human nature is the concept that there is a set of inherent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence) distinguishing characteristics, including ways of thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought), feeling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeling) and acting, that humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humans) tend to have."

[QUOTE=MadMonk;324641]

I wouldn't even consider driving downtown, or to Classen curve on a regular basis to shop for groceries. This is just my opinion of course, but nobody I know in my well educated, professional, and very well-paid circle of friends and acquaintances would drive that far for groceries on a regular basis.

I know many that would. . . on a regular basis. . . I already drive to Crescent Mkt, Farmer's Market (OSU/OKC, NH), Kamp's, PTB, Med Deli. . .not for everything (Clorox is Clorox. . .) but for the things worth driving for. . .and I still will for the "local" things I love. . . but for those "far flung" goodies they don't carry. . .you betcha, I'll drive!!

This is AWESOME!!! While I live north of Quail Springs, I will drive to Whole Foods for most of my shopping. If I just need to pick a few basic things up quickly I'll head over to Crest or Super Target. FINALLY, a great grocery store in this city!

Now that it seems to be confirmed, y'all (and me included) better plan to shop the h - e - double hockey sticks out of that store. It would be pretty embarassing if they closed it due to lack of business.

. . . soon as the doors open!! And. . . the "Soooner" the better!!

I have no words...

:woowoo::congrats::cheerlead:Smiley077:tiphat::k-bunny::bow::cheersmf::Smiley112:Smiley199:drunk:

Ok I have words

WOOHHHHHHOOOOO!!!!! XD

Yes, this is great news. Im glad there is a confirm, so hopefully the construction will be soon to follow. I think the CC location is great. I mean sure, I'd love to have it in Automobile Alley, or even in the inner city proper, 23rd/classen, or something like that. But I am just SOOO happy it isn't in Edmond (not that there was rumor of that or anything).

I wouldn't bet on a lot of that. People are pragmatic enough that they won't regularly shop somewhere miles out of their way once the novelty wears thin. Sure, there will be a few who do, but not enough to make a big difference.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think you overestimate the amount of extra time and money people want to spend on grocery shopping, regardless of their age, education level or profession. It's just human nature.
We only have two in Austin, the far north location that was slated to move about a mile to The Domain before Phase III was put on hold and downtown location under their HQ tower. Austin wouldn't have a downtown location if it wasn't for the HQ being above it. We have no WF in South Austin, we do have a Central Market which is about half the size of the downtown store and the smaller Sprout's, Newflower and Sun Harvest markets and all seem to survive but are nowhere near as busy as Whole Foods or Central Market.

The Whole Foods downtown is pretty much nuts all the time, this is while there are only about 10,000 living in Downtown Austin at this time. I know many who do shop there who live as far away as Kyle/Buda, some 25-30 miles away and traffic here is worse than OKC. Many who work on one end of town and live in the other stop by there multiple times a week, on weekends it is a madhouse. It is a destination store and there are those who go out of their way to go there even when there are other options closer. Sure there are people who the matter of convenience or absolute low price are more important but there are just as many who prefer quality (whether legitimate or implied, that is a different discussion) over convenience and will take the extra time. I know there are stores that I do that with in other areas of retail. I think it will do very well there.


wait, Cinco De Mayo isn't the Mexican version of April Fools is it? j/k
Nope, Corona marketed it as the Mexican St. Patrick's Day....

Now that it seems to be confirmed, y'all (and me included) better plan to shop the h - e - double hockey sticks out of that store. It would be pretty embarassing if they closed it due to lack of business.

It's the only store in OKC.. It's gonna be elbow to elbow in there!

It looks like this thread is part correct, part wrong. They may have gotten the date very close, with June 2011 sounding pretty reasonable if it's u/c right now and lease signed with Chesapeake. Obviously not downtown though.

I feel like "lease signed" is a confirmation that it is Chesapeake. WF does build and own their own stores in many cities, including Tulsa. However they said "lease signed" meaning someone else is building it for them. Last time I checked I was not aware of any shopping under construction in downtown, although the east end of Bricktown is seeing a lot of mysterious site work right now.. "lease signed" could only mean ONE thing -- Chesapeake.

Huh? Whole Foods built and owns their store in Tulsa? Very odd, considering it was a Wild Oats first, and the building existed before it was a Wild Oats. Any chance you have a source for your statement that Whole Foods builds and owns their stores in "many cities"? It is certainly not true of their Tulsa store. For the record, as of Sept. 27, 2009, Whole Foods operated 284 stores. They own a total of 11 of those 284 stores. The rest are leased.

And contrary to your suggestion above, leases can be, and often are, signed with developers before any construction has started.

Caution everyone, Spartan is manufacturing "facts" again.

Whole Foods owns their store/HQ tower in Downtown Austin, I think the tower is jointly owned with the developer or it was the last time that I heard anything about it. The other Austin location is a lease and the proposed Domain location was a lease/build-to-suit location. They do have some build-to-suit locations across the country but typically it is a long term lease/build-to-suit and not a purchased location, although they do have a few of those.

I know that most of the Walgreen's stores in OKC are long term leases (not 100 year though) with a build-to-suit building on it. The only "turn-key" store that I did was in Enid, at completion of construction Walgreen's bought the building from the developer.

Then is humans by nature self serving?
evil?
deceitful?
Or is humans by nature serving others?
good?
truthful?

Or is humans nature is learned?


I would like your POV.

Huh? Whole Foods built and owns their store in Tulsa? Very odd, considering it was a Wild Oats first, and the building existed before it was a Wild Oats.

Mmmk Oil Capital, would you like to imply that Wild Oats owns the building at 41st and Peoria? That's rich. I presume you're just trying to pick an argument with me at all costs, so you're grasping at straws trying to pick at anything you can. And for the record, Whole Foods DID renovate the 41st/Peoria location shortly after they acquired it from Wild Oats.


Quit knocking Tulsa.

But, but.. this is OKC Talk.. it's what we do.

I know many that would. . . on a regular basis. . . I already drive to Crescent Mkt, Farmer's Market (OSU/OKC, NH), Kamp's, PTB, Med Deli. . .not for everything (Clorox is Clorox. . .) but for the things worth driving for. . .and I still will for the "local" things I love. . . but for those "far flung" goodies they don't carry. . .you betcha, I'll drive!!
Well to each their own. Judging only by your name I imagine that you are more of a food connoisseur than the average person and can only assume you have more time to do your shopping than I do. :tiphat:


Then is humans by nature self serving?
evil?
deceitful?
Or is humans by nature serving others?
good?
truthful?

Or is humans nature is learned?


I would like your POV.
I'm not sure where you're headed with this, but I'm not really interested in a philosophical discussion of human nature. My mentioning of that phrase was intended to make the point that the average person won't regularly go far out of their way to get a top-quality product if it's an burdensome inconvenience of time and effort and a "good enough" product will suffice. Lets just leave it at that on this thread. :wink:

We only have two in Austin, the far north location that was slated to move about a mile to The Domain before Phase III was put on hold and downtown location under their HQ tower. Austin wouldn't have a downtown location if it wasn't for the HQ being above it. We have no WF in South Austin, we do have a Central Market which is about half the size of the downtown store and the smaller Sprout's, Newflower and Sun Harvest markets and all seem to survive but are nowhere near as busy as Whole Foods or Central Market.

The Whole Foods downtown is pretty much nuts all the time, this is while there are only about 10,000 living in Downtown Austin at this time. I know many who do shop there who live as far away as Kyle/Buda, some 25-30 miles away and traffic here is worse than OKC. Many who work on one end of town and live in the other stop by there multiple times a week, on weekends it is a madhouse. It is a destination store and there are those who go out of their way to go there even when there are other options closer. Sure there are people who the matter of convenience or absolute low price are more important but there are just as many who prefer quality (whether legitimate or implied, that is a different discussion) over convenience and will take the extra time. I know there are stores that I do that with in other areas of retail. I think it will do very well there.


To say "only" 10,000 people live in downtown Austin is perhaps a bit misleading. Just including the campus neighborhoods and part of Clarksville, there are over 30,000 people in about three square miles, and this entire area has an urban fabric akin to a "downtown." Moreover, central Austin is the most desirable part of town and thus most of the neighborhoods in and surrounding downtown are filled with the very kind of people who will shop at Whole Foods. In OKC, by contrast, most of the areas surrounding downtown (excluding those to the north) are among the least desirable in town.

Though I'm perhaps tripping over your choice of words, your assertion that WF is in downtown Austin "just because that's where the HQ is" seems a bit, well, silly. If WF wasn't there, it is almost certain that something else would have filled the void by now (I also note the presence of Central Market ~2 miles away, and the well-publicized interest HEB has in a downtown store)--even by your own admission, the store is wildly successful, perhaps mostly because there's an "effective" downtown population larger than 10,000 there to support it.