What a disaster.

Am I this far removed from the urban culture of OKC? Is this really an option for people?

I remember picking up a flier for these during another project's construction (as we toured it with the fire department) expecting to find that they were in the 150's to 180's considering most were no bigger than 2200 sq. I was shocked when they stickered at like twice that for that square footage. These seem even more outrageous.

I am relenting on my stance on MIII, willing to go forward, can we as a city afford this? I am asking this sincerely, as one who is quite truthfully afraid of money. What is the collective opinion? How many of these can we sustain?

I hate to see property like these founder.

Maybe if they would have priced them around the $100/sqft range they would have had more success. But $200/sqft and higher?!?!? Seems a bit outrageous to me. Especially for OKC.

Perhaps it's the Boon Pickens philosophy of pricing.

I think the Hill's prices were the highest of any of the downtown residences, although I'm not completely sure about that. The problems I saw with it, as opposed to the others, was that the townhouses in the Hill development felt the most like a house, and looked the least urban. Most people who want to live downtown want something that looks or feels a bit different from a suburban home. Also, they're the closest to the highway, and have the least attractive view of downtown/Bricktown.

Am I this far removed from the urban culture of OKC? Is this really an option for people?

We were all doubtful from the beginning. Like betts said, it was one of the priciest and least attractive from an urban living standpoint.

OKC Urban Renewal Authority had better options, but they chose this one.

OKC Urban Renewal Authority had better options, but they chose this one.

...and the disaster that is Overholser Green!

OCURA has a great track record! :rolleyes:

We were all doubtful from the beginning. Like betts said, it was one of the priciest and least attractive from an urban living standpoint.

OKC Urban Renewal Authority had better options, but they chose this one.


Gaw-ley. That's a whole lotta space, big prospect, I just can't see the return. I know that I'm way past hip, I just don't see it.

I really liked what Deep Duece did, I even like the apartments on the riverwalk, was this a stab at the Thunder salaries that are now obviously a part of urban planning?

As one poster put it, construction looks to have slowed, can this guy back out? If so is the area saveable, or is it totally committed?

I look at this as an Albuquerque native who has seen too much building for the future without planning for the future and as a fireman who sees a lot of fireload in those structures. Each day of vacancy increases the odds of arson.

If it were me, I'd either finish them and rent them, or drop the prices to the point they would sell. There is almost always a price at which houses/apartments/whatever sell. I have no idea about the finances of the owner. It would seem to me that he would have outrageous interest payments, if he's got a significant amount of debt. But, I haven't heard they've gone back to the bank, so maybe he doesn't need the money. Dunno.

...and the disaster that is Overholser Green!

OCURA has a great track record! :rolleyes:

Luckily Overholser Green is not yet under construction... plenty of time to rethink it based on what we learned from the Hill, and what we can learn by comparing the Hill as a real estate disaster with Park Harvey, Legacy, Lofts at Maywood as really big wins... Smaller and cheaper sells and rents better than luxury. Target the young people.

I think we're unfairly targeting Overholser Green, which actually had a lot of people signed to units before it couldn't get off the ground.

I think to compare Overholser Green to The Hill is an insult.. to compare anything to The Hill is an insult. What a disaster. This project could not have gone any worse.

If it were me, I'd either finish them and rent them, or drop the prices to the point they would sell. There is almost always a price at which houses/apartments/whatever sell. I have no idea about the finances of the owner. It would seem to me that he would have outrageous interest payments, if he's got a significant amount of debt. But, I haven't heard they've gone back to the bank, so maybe he doesn't need the money. Dunno.


That seems to be the only reasonable thing, lower the prices. Sheesh, I would have to sell my unicorn just to live there as it now stands. You cannot possibly make 3600 square feet max. living space worth 500,000 dollars in okc. Just doesn't compute.

Oh, there are plenty of places in OKC and Edmond where that would be the price, or more, for that sort of square footage. In a lot of cities it can be more expensive to live downtown than in outlying areas or the suburbs. I just don't see the Hill as being that interesting or unique. But I am sure there is a price at which they would sell, just don't know if the owner would be willing to find the price.

Oh, there are plenty of places in OKC and Edmond where that would be the price, or more, for that sort of square footage. In a lot of cities it can be more expensive to live downtown than in outlying areas or the suburbs. I just don't see the Hill as being that interesting or unique. But I am sure there is a price at which they would sell, just don't know if the owner would be willing to find the price.

I am not aware of such places. Not without a yard, and community and such.

I know that there are small demographics of this city to whom money is no object and the communities of which I am aware stay full of them. I just don't think that buying a new property in the vicinity of downtown is worth that dough, especially since you are buying absolutely no history with the property.

I really don't know if we are this Big Time, that's what I am getting at.

Downtown is risky. But, there's some reward to the risk. It's fun. It's easy to walk everywhere. It feels more like you're living in a big city than anywhere else in town, and some people don't really want a yard.

Downtown is risky. But, there's some reward to the risk. It's fun. It's easy to walk everywhere. It feels more like you're living in a big city than anywhere else in town, and some people don't really want a yard.

You're very right. If I were young and hip again, I wouldn't want a yard. Really I'd just take Hip. I suppose that a guy in my position, with a family, and good not huge cashflow, values the other side of city living (the one that's like grandparents - good for a visit, but hurry give the kids back Biggest Loser is on...).

I'll just say again that I think it is too big a chunk. We'll see when this tier II thing blows wide open, and money types start circling the want ads.

If someone would build a high rise tower (40-50 stories) downtown I would sign up instantly,as long as it was priced right. I would love living on the 40th floor over looking the city.

I would not want to live in a 5-10-15 story building downtown.

Build it and they will come!

You're very right. If I were young and hip again, I wouldn't want a yard. Really I'd just take Hip. I suppose that a guy in my position, with a family, and good not huge cashflow, values the other side of city living (the one that's like grandparents - good for a visit, but hurry give the kids back Biggest Loser is on...).

I'll just say again that I think it is too big a chunk. We'll see when this tier II thing blows wide open, and money types start circling the want ads.

"Tier II thing blows wide open" ... care to elaborate?

If someone would build a high rise tower (40-50 stories) downtown I would sign up instantly,as long as it was priced right. I would love living on the 40th floor over looking the city.

I would not want to live in a 5-10-15 story building downtown.

Build it and they will come!

I agree, build a highrise with great views, great amenties and a REAL parking garage and I would be all over it!

Many of us on this message board were terribly disheartened when the pedantic, crass, suburban The Hill was given the green light over the innovative, mixed-use design of McDermid's concept, which also contained multiple price points.

We were pretty sure The Hill would fail, but I doubt any of us could have predicted what an abortion it would turn into.

The Urban Renewal group needs to be scrambled. They cannot effectively make decisions for OKC. Their track record is abysmal, and pretty much has been for several decades. Can they be dismantled and re-formed in another context?

"Tier II thing blows wide open" ... care to elaborate?

MGE was anti-MAPS 3, so I imagine he's not buying that OKC can become a true Tier II city.

I am not aware of such places. Not without a yard, and community and such.

I know that there are small demographics of this city to whom money is no object and the communities of which I am aware stay full of them. I just don't think that buying a new property in the vicinity of downtown is worth that dough, especially since you are buying absolutely no history with the property.

I really don't know if we are this Big Time, that's what I am getting at.

I agree that it is fascinating how this concept of downtown living can work in OKC .. but we already kind of moved past the "will this work?" stage and it is in fact working very well with a large number of developments. The Hill has been a colossal failure, but OCURA had a number of excellent alternatives to chose. One was a mixed-use community called "Ellison Park" proposed by architect Anthony McDermid -- Ellison would have had restaurants and boutiques with a mix of for-rent apartments. Instead they went with the most boring proposal offered just because it would have been for-sale condos.

There are a number of projects that have been successful that would affirm to you that we are "this Big Time." The Centennial (on the Bricktown Canal), which has similarly expensive units, was a home run. Block 42 and Central Avenue Villas sold pretty well. Those are both for-sale, but CAV was less expensive smaller units, and Block 42 is a very interesting project unlike The Hill. The Brownstones at Maywood Park are beginning to sell off the remaining units, and those are much much nicer than The Hill (just ask Betts lol). Apartments have gone over well all around downtown -- Park Harvey, The Montgomery, Deep Deuce, etc.

I do think MAPS 3 passing will ultimately make all of these developments successful. The streetcar is going to completely change how people view downtown, I truly believe. Even the Hill will ultimately be finished and people will move in, whether it's then rentals or for purchase housing (perhaps at lower price points). There will be people who ultimately think living downtown is a good idea who may want the more house-like condos you get with the Hill, as it offers a very different feel than all of the others. I agree it's not what should have been built there, but now that it has, I'd like to see it be successful in some fashion.

Even the Hill will ultimately be finished and people will move in

I agree that something will eventually be built on that hill, but it won't be the hill.

Really, Canfield has just made the site even less desirable because he's put suburban rowhomes along ALL of the possible street frontage that faces any adjacent neighborhoods.. so any different development is going to have to go on without ANY street frontage pretty much (and I say that acknowledging a tiny bit towards the south side of the site). I don't know about that. I think we just have to finish The Hill as planned.

It sounds like this could be an intriguing project for the right person.

It sounds like this could be an intriguing project for the right person.

Will there be anything about this in the Oklahoman soon?

Don't read anything into my comment. Just saying this could be a good project for someone who appreciates a big challenge.

I think we just have to finish The Hill as planned.

Who in their right mind would do this? It's done. The Hill will never be built "as planned."

I suspect Canfield will not finish "The Hill." But I doubt "it's done." The answer, I suspect, is in the gray area people aren't as eager to explore.

I suspect Canfield will not finish "The Hill." But I doubt "it's done." The answer, I suspect, is in the gray area people aren't as eager to explore.

I'll profess being dense. conversion to mixed income level rental units?
long day after a longer night. I'm just not really following.

I'm not an urban planner. But it seems as if the remainder of the Hill, including some of the partly finished units, could be recast somehow. Deep Deuce itself is the product of daring, innovative thinking. Who says a similar outcome can't be possible for the Hill?

I'm not an urban planner. But it seems as if the remainder of the Hill, including some of the partly finished units, could be recast somehow. Deep Deuce itself is the product of daring, innovative thinking. Who says a similar outcome can't be possible for the Hill?

Right- I've never actually been inside the units, but maybe they're even large enough to turn into some kind of live/work concept, providing more mixed use along the street frontage. The cottage homes on 23rd have been turned into great retail spaces, as have the homes on NW 9th in Automobile Alley. The same could be done with the Hill. Maybe each of the individual units could be split in two- upper and lower units- to offer smaller and more affordable units.

If there is someone out there who is innovative, and if the developer/OCURA is willing to allow the project to change hands, they can definitely make the Hill work in a new way.

Basically, what I'm suggesting is this might be a good challenge for someone with a brain for attacking such puzzles - like Shane or Blair (both of whom dwarf me in mental capacity!)

give it to me, i'm broke and have bad credit... let me get a loan.

I doubt anyone is presently ready to face reality.

Who in their right mind would do this? It's done. The Hill will never be built "as planned."

I think that the overwhelming sense of doom in trying to salvage something else out of the site (due to a lack of frontage) is more compelling than the overwhelming doom of trying to finish the project as planned..that's just my personal opinion though.

I doubt anyone is presently ready to face reality.

This could take years.

My greatest concern with OCURA handing this off to someone with a less than optimal design and concept is that it would fail and spread the stench of failure around to other downtown properties.

Quagmire accomplished?

Those homes that are finished along the front could be made into some pretty neat shops ala the two remodeled homes on 9th and Broadway next to the Iguana.

When I was looking at places DT back in July I toured the Hill. They were very traditional inside and felt very suburban. Plus the fact that they in fact were ridiculously overpriced. The sales guy was real nice but when I asked him about when phases 2 and 3 were going to get started he said they were about to get financing and should start on them in Oct. Obviously that didn't happen.

How many units have actually sold in the Hill? How would you justify changing the projects to people that are already living there?

Well the exhibited extraordinary brain damage by purchasing one of the units in the first place.

I didn't think anyone had moved in...

How many units have actually sold in the Hill? How would you justify changing the projects to people that are already living there?

I don't believe they've sold a single unit. They hadn't the last time I checked.

When does OCURA step up and say that they made a huge mistake?

Then divide this area up again and let other developers create new and refreshing designs for THE HILL.

THE HILL just screams for a high rise residential tower that is price point in the mid range for downtown living.

When does OCURA step up and say that they made a huge mistake?

Then divide this area up again and let other developers create new and refreshing designs for THE HILL.

THE HILL just screams for a high rise residential tower that is price point in the mid range for downtown living.

I pretty much agree. Just put something there that will fully utilize the awesome views over Bricktown and Dowtown.

I'm not convinced that's the best location for a highrise, but just about anything would be preferable to the Hill.

I'm not convinced that's the best location for a highrise, but just about anything would be preferable to the Hill.

Second.

I think given the calamity that it presents from a site plan perspective, it's going to be impossible to get something that is "urban smart" out of the site. But now that I've thought about it a little more, maybe we could just move Bass Pro behind The Hill?

Realistically, a big box retailer could go behind there and it would have great visibility and it wouldn't hurt a neighborhood or anything. I would still much prefer Whole Foods, any big boxes, or hell even Wal-Mart, to go right on the street in an urban format but sometimes if the big box isn't Whole Foods that's too much to ask for. I've seen some excellent urban Wal-Marts, like one I went to in Atlanta two years ago..it was actually a nice experience.

But if we absolutely HAVE to have any more suburban big boxes in downtown, just stick it behind The Hill..

I think given the calamity that it presents from a site plan perspective, it's going to be impossible to get something that is "urban smart" out of the site. But now that I've thought about it a little more, maybe we could just move Bass Pro behind The Hill?

Realistically, a big box retailer could go behind there and it would have great visibility and it wouldn't hurt a neighborhood or anything. I would still much prefer Whole Foods, any big boxes, or hell even Wal-Mart, to go right on the street in an urban format but sometimes if the big box isn't Whole Foods that's too much to ask for. I've seen some excellent urban Wal-Marts, like one I went to in Atlanta two years ago..it was actually a nice experience.

But if we absolutely HAVE to have any more suburban big boxes in downtown, just stick it behind The Hill..

Almost sounds like an ideal site for a Mass Transit Hub. It would probably drive down property values for residential owners, but if nobody's willing to pay to live there...

Except that there's no transit infrastructure behind The Hill besides a freeway, which is not exactly the interface we're trying to connect with other passenger transit services.

I'm so furious about this entire situation I can't even form coherent thoughts about what to do about it.

We can all understand that, Pete. It's just a ginormous case of "I told you so" that we all wish we weren't in. It's not that we love to say "I told you so," in fact we would all rather have been wrong about what a disaster The Hill was going to be.

Except that there's no transit infrastructure behind The Hill besides a freeway, which is not exactly the interface we're trying to connect with other passenger transit services.

then build it from scratch!! You people want a fully integrated transit system.. That means putting it where it will connect people who use the existing system.. The one that nobody even uses now..

It won't interrupt current transit.. nobody's living there. The "other passenger transit services" are non-existent.. nobody effing uses the downtown buses now.. a Streetcar isn't going to magically make them appear and start riding them..

You've already made it clear that you aren't willing to centralize it with the high-usage areas... You've made it clear that you aren't willing to build the new system where people DO use the current system in heavy numbers.. You might as well build it in a still-centralized area that is unpopulated to the point where current housing plans are failing miserably and link it in the future to areas that desperately need mass transit..

At least you'll have plenty of empty street-level spaces to build all this new private business that will cater to the Streetcar riders..

I just had a profoundly depressing thought...

To the scoffs of many, I once compared The Hill to Sycamore Square, an urban development cluster from the word go. But of course the latter has proven to be infinitely more successful. How incredibly sad is that?

Sadder still is that SS was designed and built around 30 years ago and OCURA has seemed to learn nothing, especially when you look at what ended up filling the rest of the Sycamore Square property after waiting almost three decades (The Legacy).


Pardon me while I go look at the Devon renderings... I need a pick-me-up.

I think given the calamity that it presents from a site plan perspective, it's going to be impossible to get something that is "urban smart" out of the site

I disagree. It's still a great location and could easily be integrated into a deep deuce masterplan with all sorts of opportunities for nooks and crannies and whatnot.

For the record, has OCURA ever made the RIGHT decision?

then build it from scratch!! You people want a fully integrated transit system.. That means putting it where it will connect people who use the existing system.. The one that nobody even uses now..

It won't interrupt current transit.. nobody's living there. The "other passenger transit services" are non-existent.. nobody effing uses the downtown buses now.. a Streetcar isn't going to magically make them appear and start riding them..

You've already made it clear that you aren't willing to centralize it with the high-usage areas... You've made it clear that you aren't willing to build the new system where people DO use the current system in heavy numbers.. You might as well build it in a still-centralized area that is unpopulated to the point where current housing plans are failing miserably and link it in the future to areas that desperately need mass transit..

At least you'll have plenty of empty street-level spaces to build all this new private business that will cater to the Streetcar riders..

I think you're being sarcastic, right? It's a terrible location for a transit hub.

I took fuzzy toad's sarcasm as being very astute, as to the assumptions being made in this forum.

I took fuzzy toad's sarcasm as being very astute, as to the assumptions being made in this forum.

So you're implying the suggestions made in this thread are asinine? I disagree.

Here's an aerial of the property with the proposed site plan

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/misc/thehill1.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/misc/thehill2.jpg