How is that even possible?

How is that even possible?

They gave him like 12 extensions.

Should have pulled the plug a long time ago.

It's about freaking time. He should never have been awarded the development in the first place.

It's about freaking time. He should never have been awarded the development in the first place.

No he shouldn't have. It was scandalous from the beginning and look how it's turned out.

So this is the guy that was chosen to develop this? A scientist who is a college professor?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Canfield

This does sound scandalous.

They gave him like 12 extensions.

Should have pulled the plug a long time ago.
I just don’t understand how the developer can mess up so badly.

prob because he is not a developer. ...

prob because he is not a developer. ...

ding ding ding we have a winner ..

It will be interested to see how many professional developers jump on the opportunity to finish this out to the level that so many on here seem to believe is a slam dunk. I personally think it will be hard to finish. The remaining area is close to the highway, is landlocked behind the front part. It is not easily accessible or visible to do anything with it but the kind of housing that is already there. The may be able to do some cheaper finished places, but still townhomes nonetheless. Sure can't put any retail or office where everyone has to enter through the existing streets.

Will new developers have to adhere to the style set forth or will we have a weird juxtaposed set of designs?

It will be interested to see how many professional developers jump on the opportunity to finish this out to the level that so many on here seem to believe is a slam dunk. I personally think it will be hard to finish. The remaining area is close to the highway, is landlocked behind the front part. It is not easily accessible or visible to do anything with it but the kind of housing that is already there. The may be able to do some cheaper finished places, but still townhomes nonetheless. Sure can't put any retail or office where everyone has to enter through the existing streets.

I made the point very early on that this developer just cherry-picked all the most desirable lots and left the remainder.

When Canfield pitched for the rights to develop, he competed with others who wanted to do mixed-used, with commercial at the front and residential towards the back.

Now, it's been developed in such a way that the remaining property is going to be very hard to finish.

OCURA never should have awarded this project to Canfield and they certainly should have pulled the plug before he made it very difficult for it to be finished.

It will be interested to see how many professional developers jump on the opportunity to finish this out to the level that so many on here seem to believe is a slam dunk. I personally think it will be hard to finish. The remaining area is close to the highway, is landlocked behind the front part. It is not easily accessible or visible to do anything with it but the kind of housing that is already there. The may be able to do some cheaper finished places, but still townhomes nonetheless. Sure can't put any retail or office where everyone has to enter through the existing streets.

Honestly probably just need to turn a good chunk into a play park for kids and then either do some flats or apartments.

You could maybe get away with like a small dental or law practice. Definitely nothing retail. Actually, that would be kind of a cool. Try and do 5-10 live/work units on the NE 1st frontage, the kid's playground on South side NE 1st Terrace (and above the unnamed alley/road) and apartments on the big lot at the back, that seems about as good as it's going to get.

I

Looking at the site on Google maps and street view, I wonder if you could revamp the street plan so that the far back SE corner connects over to Lincoln Blvd. You'd have to remove the big retaining wall and grade the site down to fix the elevation, but it might help with developing the remaining property since it would establish a new 'front' that could anchor some mixed-used buildings.

https://i.imgur.com/Y5wcp6x.jpg
Yellow = connecting streets back to grid
Green = future biking/running path?
Blue = potential commercial/apartments fronting lincoln blvd

I think this is honestly the best time to reconsider connecting this plot of land back to the grid. It could be one of the only few remaining ways (short of expensively capping I235) to connect downtown/bricktown to the OUHSC and that entire area east of the highway that is ripe for development given its proximity to everything. Look at google streetview under the overpass and you can see there is room for 1st street to reconnect under the highway.

Looking at the site on Google maps and street view, I wonder if you could revamp the street plan so that the far back SE corner connects over to Lincoln Blvd. You'd have to remove the big retaining wall and grade the site down to fix the elevation, but it might help with developing the remaining property since it would establish a new 'front' that could anchor some mixed-used buildings.

YES! What you said at a minimum! But if they want to go the extra yard, the city would do well to consider reconnecting 1st street

If it wasn't for that last block of townhouses built just north of the pool on an angle, a new developer could have reconfigured the streets to a grid pretty easily. That would go along with this lot.

Reminder that there is a large grade change between the railroad right-of-way and the Hill property, especially at the east end where there is a significant retaining wall.

The RR ROW has to be preserved for future commuter rail.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill030620a.jpg

I guess just start a new addition and call it "The Mountain"

It is pretty unfortunate that the previous developer (scientist?) raised the grade so much. But the next developer can always bring the grade back down. Why would they go through the trouble and expense?

Obviously the rowhouse game has been slow and difficult. An apartment block development is more straight forward and less risky I imagine (among other benefits I may not be aware of considering how many more giant apartment complexes are being built rather than townhome communities). But we've established that the current dead-end situation of the remaining land is prohibitive to building commercial or apartments and this fixes that situation by reconnecting it to Lincoln Blvd and the eastern portion of bricktown.

As to the railroad right-of-way: I'm a big believer in keeping that free of development for future rail access to Tulsa and the adventure district. I am however pessimistic to it happening anytime soon. A trail alongside the tracks would be a vital connection to the under-served east side in the meantime. Can always replace it with rail in the 20-30 years later that it would conceivably happen. And honestly, I don't see a reason the trail and rail can't be alongside each other. Other cities that have done it just put a fence between the two.

I see no advantage to reconnecting 1st street. Access to this area through the current Hill neighborhood is just fine. This development likely will and should remain more residential. I know there is an RFP out, but I would love for the city and The Hill HOA to come to agreement to allow the remaining land (divided into lots) to be bought privately for development. Then allow usage of the neighborhood amenities via the HOA.

I believe current residents are paying $400-600+ in HOA dues depending on the size/location of the unit. That price level has quite the say in the matter. So I am sure the city is keeping them in mind.

reconnecting the street grid to this development is a non starter with the Hill HOA

Why not just turn the rest of the property into a park heavy with trees if they have a hard time finding a developer. Create a bike path and stairs connecting to Lincoln.

Because the current residents and amenities costs need more residents to pay into the HOA. The more people you have paying monthly dues, the lower it makes everyone's dues. Adding parkspace will only increase dues for maintaining the park.

There has been 91 units built out of 157. Depending on how the current HOA was structured, the developer may have been kicking in their share of the unbuilt lots into the HOA. Considering the current developer appears to be incompetent, I doubt the HOA is/was seeing the developer's fair share. So essentially the current residents are subsidizing the entire neighborhood until more units are built. It is also possible the HOA has taken a loan out to help pay for the amenities operation costs and current residents are getting hosed on those payments as new unit construction has essentially halted.

I do not have inside knowledge about their current HOA. But I think it is fair to assume that it is likely a huge mess.

I've been watching the supply of downtown/midtown housing, and I can't help but think that the asking price for much of this development is ridiculous. Developers are asking for many of these properties prices you'd expect to see in downtown Dallas properties with better amenities.

New construction anywhere is just really really expensive these days.

I see larger-scale, open-floor concept minimalist
brick loft units to keep costs down, with lower-level parking against the highway, dog park strip between the older and newer construction

New construction anywhere is just really really expensive these days.

Labor, materials, and code requirements are all up.

The price of lumber alone has skyrocketed the past 6 months.

Do we know why? Is it a supply chain thing due to pandemic or something else entirely?

Supply chain disruption from the pandemic has a lot to do with the recent price spiking, Also strong demand and the Trump tariffs on Canadian lumber in 2018 were squeezing available supply pre pandemic.

The price of lumber alone has skyrocketed the past 6 months.
Steel as well. China has been on a road and rail expansion boom on a scale bigger than the interstates conception and it’s surely had an impact on the global market.

Another odd thing I saw is the price of tequila going up due to COVID shutting down agave farms in Mexico.

Ah, yes, tariffs. Hurting our business as well, we've had to adjust prices accordingly.

Ah, yes, tariffs. Hurting our business as well, we've had to adjust prices accordingly.

Weren't the tariffs on Canada lifted a couple of months ago?

An irony is that Colorado is trying every which way to have slightly burned and huge amounts of beetle-killed trees harvested out. It's perfectly good for construction.

Things happening

https://twitter.com/ULIoklahoma/status/1382699051645337600


Urban residential development opportunity in OKC House buildings The requirements for submittal can be found on OCURA’s website

A pre-submission meeting will be held on Friday, April 30th at 10am
for details.

You can see the entire RFP here:

https://8982d45a-c353-4fda-8b7f-eb15c1869223.filesusr.com/ugd/85f9b0_654b730e4edb4f2ab70845dc89bb8bab.pdf

You can see the entire RFP here:

https://8982d45a-c353-4fda-8b7f-eb15c1869223.filesusr.com/ugd/85f9b0_654b730e4edb4f2ab70845dc89bb8bab.pdf

from the RFP it seems like the really want the hill part 2 ... with a better developer ... which makes sense

Long-stalled Deep Deuce development reimagined as 'zero energy' neighborhood

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/08/02/long-stalled-deep-deuce-development-reimagined-zero-energy-neighborhood/5435826001/

I don't know that facing interior courtyards is the answer.

Interesting. Would be cool - but I'll file this in the "I'll believe it when I see it" along with most all other The Hill-related news.

Most interesting part of that article to me was learning that the West Village is 96% occupied. Curious if the rest of the downtown apartment complexes are similarly full. Makes me feel confident in (and provides the basis for) some of the planned additional downtown housing developments.

Have a friend that lives in The Edge that says they are only 50% occupied, not sure how accurate.

adding a second pool at the Hill doesn't make much sense .... there are rarely any kids at the Pool currently

Have a friend that lives in The Edge that says they are only 50% occupied, not sure how accurate.

I don’t believe this is accurate. I recently got my hands on a market study for Class A apartments in downtown. Most are at stabilized occupancy.

This is the survey done by Price Edwards for year-end 2020:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/urbanapartments2020.jpg

Have a friend that lives in The Edge that says they are only 50% occupied, not sure how accurate.

Pete beat me. :(

For comparison, here are the numbers for 2019:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/urbanapartments2019.jpg

For comparison, here are the numbers for 2019:

]


do you know what % occupancy (in general) makes these profitable??

do you know what % occupancy (in general) makes these profitable??

Depends on the project of course, but most pro formas I've seen use 90% for break-even. But over time, if you have permanent financing, your costs stay pretty flat while rents always go up.

Max occupancy is usually 95% due to the nature of people moving in and out.

Depends on the project of course, but most pro formas I've seen use 90% for break-even. But over time, if you have permanent financing, your costs stay pretty flat while rents always go up.

Max occupancy is usually 95% due to the nature of people moving in and out.

thanks Pete

That 5% to 10% vacancy is called structural vacancy. It is required for move-in and move-outs in addition to repairs and maintenance. If a property's occupancy rate is 100%, that indicates to an owner that the rent is too low and needs to increase to reach the structural vacancy rate.

The architect would be Rand Elliot and the contractor Vincit.

From the submitted proposal:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221e.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221f.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221g.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221h.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221i.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hill080221j.jpg

a friend of mine that lives in the Hill just texted me about idea to stamp his current garage ally ...with why?? and if it could be done in a weekend sure if not no thanks ..

Hopefully this new design won't want another 12 years or whatever we're currently too.

Hopefully this new design won't want another 12 years or whatever we're currently too.

Pretty unlikely that it will languish if this team is awarded a development agreement. I don't know Irwin, but Andy definitely gets things done.

I have learned to avoid setting any expectations for Rand Elliott design plans. Won't get excited about this until dirt starts turning. Also, the photos showing the majestic brownstones seem to be misleading eye candy -- way too warm and ornate for anything Rand would design.

I have learned to avoid setting any expectations for Rand Elliott design plans. Won't get excited about this until dirt starts turning. Also, the photos showing the majestic brownstones seem to be misleading eye candy -- way too warm and ornate for anything Rand would design.

Don't conflate Rand as a designer and Rand as a developer. If it doesn't go forward it will be on the developer and not Rand. I know it is cool to bag on Rand, but he's a damn fine architect and his group can do many styles.

was it not Rand the designer that created sidewalks in the boathouse district that were so non-useable day-to-day that they've had to use pavers in the grass to connect buildings in a more usable way?

was it not Rand the designer that created sidewalks in the boathouse district that were so non-useable day-to-day that they've had to use pavers in the grass to connect buildings in a more usable way?

but they look pretty from the air... . lol

was it not Rand the designer that created sidewalks in the boathouse district that were so non-useable day-to-day that they've had to use pavers in the grass to connect buildings in a more usable way?

Don't forget he didn't want trees there either, which makes the area far less tolerable in the heat.

I guess we're proving the point that is cool to bag on Rand. He has done some great work for the city, but his resistance to designing for people and hypocritically throwing around his influence in Automobile Alley have certainly damaged his rep somewhat.

You obviously don't know who Rainey Williams is.

Don't forget he didn't want trees there either, which makes the area far less tolerable in the heat.

I guess we're proving the point that is cool to bag on Rand. He has done some great work for the city, but his resistance to designing for people and hypocritically throwing around his influence in Automobile Alley have certainly damaged his rep somewhat.

I definitely like Rand's work by and large. But even the things I like I kinda also don't like parts of sometimes. Take the bad with the good I guess.