Man it seems like every thread I read turns into either religion or politics. :(

^
at okctalk, we've got both kinds of discusion... religion and politics!

i think people are still winding down from the election... i'd suspect it'll be calming down in another week or so.

-M

^
at okctalk, we've got both kinds of discusion... religion and politics!

-M

I was going to suggest we talk about sex but then realized it would probably go right back to religion or politics...

what? you know about the other set of scrolls?

-M

lol...no. I was referring to the fact that the king james version of the bible is not a direct translation :)

I was at the last game and the prayer...did not use the name Jesus...

To elaborate---do these prayers explicitly endorse Christianity at all?

If not, it sounds like a small price to pay for free speech at worst.

I once watched the food channel show about a barbeque competition. A featured team prayed for victory (I kid you not - they prayed to win a barbeque contest!) before the judges sampled their entry.

They lost.Lets stop and think here for just a moment. The bar-b-que team prayed, they lost. The Thunder pray, and they lose. Personally I dont care if they pray or not. But praying doesn't seem to be working, unless of coarse they are praying for the other team to win.

PLEASE...give me a break!!!

Your worried about a simple little prayer, when people are constantly being intruded upon every single hour of every single day with cursing, sexual innuendo, every kind of belief from witch craft to, well you name it, right or wrong these are things that we "let slide" or "choose to ignore" are constantly being poured out on us and our children with no warning or permission....pick something else to get on your soap box about!

Offend how? It's the truth there is only 1 true God and thats the God that created us and this world and everything in it. All other gods are false gods and are worthless. The people who worship idols like Buda or a stick of wood are worshiping false gods. There is only 1 True God and he sent his son to die on the cross for us so that we may have our sins forgiven and be able to enter into Heaven and be with him for ever and ever.

Oh Lord....

Bobby....has it ever occured to you that religion is nothing more than cultural philosophy? A group of ideas shared by others as to our existance?

You know....if were born in Thailand, you would have been a Buddhist. If you were Japanese, shintoism. India? Hindu. Saudi Arabia? Islam.

You're a Christian simply because you were born here and raised to believe it's true.

Trust me.....Christianity is just as silly as the others.

And if the rest of the NBA thinks we're a bunch of rednecks because we pray at games....well.....maybe it's because we are.

Hey, I'm about ready to say I'm all for praying for a victory before every game. We have nothing to lose!

Amen!

> if the rest of the NBA thinks we're a bunch of rednecks because
> we pray at games....well..

But are folks rednecks because they pray at games, or do they pray at games because they are rednecks?

Just another wth? moment brought to you by Life's Lil' Mysteries Inc. :)

To elaborate---do these prayers explicitly endorse Christianity at all?

If not, it sounds like a small price to pay for free speech at worst.

No, there was nothing explicitly Christian about it. They also DID NOT pray for victory. Get it right.

(looking around)

Waitaminute....I think I've stumble upon the Faith & Values Open Discussion (http://www.okctalk.com/faith-values-open-discussion/) thread.

My bad....

(looks for the door to the Oklahoma City Thunder (http://www.okctalk.com/oklahoma-city-thunder/)thread) (http://www.okctalk.com/oklahoma-city-thunder/)

Amazing.

And people wonder what is wrong with this world. When a prayer to God offends people, we have problems.

Even if you don't believe in prayer, how is it offensive to ask for the safety of fans, players, and coaches offensive.

Makes me sick.

Don't kid yourself.

I was disussing this with some Islamic friends today and they were saying folks would not be as respectful/favorable to an Islamic call to prayer prior to tipoff.

Can you imagine the reaction to this?
http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/calltoprayer.htm

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.

America was founded as/is/and will always be a nation founded on Judeo-Christian ethics.


Fixed it for you.

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.


No the US was not founded as a Christian nation.

Skye- where do people get these ideas?? Seriously.

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.

Proof?

Proof?

Midtowner, there you go being all logical and rational and stuff.

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.

I'll never understand why people believe this.

...and the people that believe it REALLY believe it. I'm not sure where this concept was born...

...and the people that believe it REALLY believe it. I'm not sure where this concept was born...


Probably in churches.

I personally don't have a problem with prayer before games, and I know that many teams will say a team prayer before kickoff during the playoffs.
To say these prayers are nondenominational because they don't use Jesus' name is bull. The person they are praying to is implied to be God.

Midtowner, there you go being all logical and rational and stuff.

Yeah... he might force me to trot out Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists :)

I've been known to pray for BBQ when especially hungry.

I'm hungry right now.

Dear Lord, please drop me a rib. And a piece of garlic toast if you don't mind.

Amen

I think it's perfectly fine to pray before a game.

Just nibble at your finger...You're MADE of rib.

Come to think of it...That's probably why women smell so good.


I was going to suggest we talk about sex but then realized it would probably go right back to religion or politics...

I suggest we talk about pie.

_____________

Bobby, just a thought...Using the Bible to argue with somebody that doesn't believe in what it says will work about as well as a lead balloon. Would you believe a Muslim if he quoted the Koran to you? Didn't think so. You want to use logic and reason. :tiphat:

...I suggest we talk about pie.


Mmmmmm...pie......

OMG I love pie.

nom nom nom nom

About the topic at hand. Private, non-denom prayers are find at things like this. The only issue I see is when you start using God, Jesus, Buddha, or any other deity's name.

Right now this team needs more than a prayer though. The worst joke in the league right now, with fans that were touted as the best in the nation who are leaving after the half, etc.

Land of hypocrites.

>who are leaving after the half

Do bear in mind many of these fans were raised in the time honored Okie tradition of show up, cheer, ok, that's enough, let's get outta here and beat the traffic. Doesn't matter if the team is winning or getting drummed, that sense of winning at the beatin' dat traffic game is more than enough joy for many many folk. Sad, but not untrue.

...Right now this team needs more than a prayer though...

Like some better shooting. That said, maybe Scot Brooks can get it out of the current team.

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.

With respect:

From the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, a.k.a. "Treaty Of Tripoli", ratified June 7, 1797, signed June 10, 1797:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
bolding mine

To a lesser extent:

From Amendment I of The Bill Of Rights:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

I'm kinda sorry I just waded through all that; but, since I did, I might as well weigh in. As many have pointed out this isn't a First Amendment issue. When you're paying for the mic; then you can control the message. Its business as usual, and as it should be. But as person after person wrote to say the prayer was egregiously non-denominational so "why should anyone have a problem with it," I was repeatedly struck with the same thought; I really want a cheeseburger...wait, sorry...I did think that, but also...why do you need a prayer before a sporting event? I'm sure there are less appropriate places for coerced group prayer, but none come to mind. What is the purpose of a pregame prayer?

i'm sure there are less appropriate places for coerced group prayer...

coerced? you mean people were forced to pray? did they kick out folks who didn't play along?

i'm not completely against anyone who doesn't think that a prayer is appropriate before a public event... i can appreciate the fact that it makes some people uncomfortable... but nobody was coerced into praying.

-M

coerced? you mean people were forced to pray? did they kick out folks who didn't play along?

i'm not completely against anyone who doesn't think that a prayer is appropriate before a public event... i can appreciate the fact that it makes some people uncomfortable... but nobody was coerced into praying.

-M

By performing a public, group prayer; people not of the faith that were praying were forced to observe, react/not react, and put up with something they may have found highly offensive.

You don't see anyone shooting a good luck freethrow before church service right there in front of the pulpit.


On top of that, you know very well that if a muslim got down on his knees with a carpet to pray to allah right before the game, there would be cries of complete outrage from the same people who conduct/approve of these prayers before each game.

by performing a public, group prayer; people not of the faith that were praying were forced to observe, react/not react, and put up with something they may have found highly offensive.

"people not of the faith that were praying?" anyone not of the faith that were praying were doing so by choice. nobody was forced to pray. having to observe something that you may find offensive is not coercion to perform that act. maybe you don't understand what 'coercion' means, either.


you don't see anyone shooting a good luck freethrow before church service right there in front up the pulpit.

this analogy is completely irrelevant. in this culture, there is a custom for 'praying' before athletic events. perhaps the custom is dying, but its vestiges still exist. there is no such custom for lucky freethrows at church services. bottom line is, if you go into a public event hosted by a private entity, you don't have the right to say what happens and doesn't happen... whether that action be a prayer at a basketball game or a lucky freethrow at a worship service.


on top of that, you know very well that if a muslim got down on his knees with a carpet to pray to allah right before the game, there would be cries of complete outrage from the same people who conduct/approve of these prayers before each game.

actually, i doubt that there'd be much outrage... some, maybe. but again, it's irrelevant... there is no such custom.

-M

maybe you don't understand what 'coercion' means, either.

perhaps its you having the difficulty here.

Are Non-Christians given the opportunity to lead a public prayer alongside the Christian one? Are people given the opportunity to leave the building if they find the act of public Christian prayer offensive?

Is there any other means of avoiding this pre-game spectacle other than "Don't go if you don't like prayer"?

Which

leads to my second analogy, which you claim is irrelevant.

People go to Thunder games to watch basketball. People go to Church for religious reasons. How is that irrelevant?




actually, i doubt that there'd be much outrage... some, maybe. but again, it's irrelevant... there is no such custom.

-M

either there is a custom or there isn't. in the same post you claim that there's a custom of prayer before games. Which is it?

are non-christians given the opportunity to lead a public prayer alongside the christian one?

nope. and why should they be? the basketball game is a private event. hypothetically speaking, i can't waltz into a meeting of atheist headquarters international and demand a christian prayer. i can't traipse into a basketball game of another team and demand a prayer if they don't have one.


are people given the opportunity to leave the building if they find the act of public christian prayer offensive
you bet they are. certainly you don't think they lock up the arena once the prayer starts.


either there is a custom or there isn't. in the same post you claim that there's a custom of prayer before games. which is it?
it's not a custom in primarily muslim countries (or any other) to whip out a prayer mat before a game. it is an american custom (though arguably a dying one) to pray before sporting events. to say why don't we do "x" when it's not part of any customary behavior is pretty much irrelevant to the argument.

-M

nope. and why should they be? the basketball game is a private event. hypothetically speaking, i can't waltz into a meeting of atheist headquarters international and demand a christian prayer. i can't traipse into a basketball game of another team and demand a prayer if they don't have one.


you bet they are. certainly you don't think they lock up the arena once the prayer starts.


it's not a custom in primarily muslim countries (or any other) to whip out a prayer mat before a game. it is an american custom (though arguably a dying one) to pray before sporting events. to say why don't we do "x" when it's not part of any customary behavior is pretty much irrelevant to the argument.

-M

Hi there!.

Ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?

I'm asking because we took a client to a game. The prayer started and he immediately got upset to the point that we had to take him back to his hotel and apologize profusely.

He was from India and apparently thought we had shanghaid him into some sort of religious ceremony prior to an NBA game.

Needless to say, we won't be taking anymore clients to games.

ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?

the context of my remark was under 'coercion'... while it's possible that neither you nor your client had ample opportunity to 'get the heck out of dodge' before the prayer began, nobody was physically forced to stay. nobody was 'coerced' to pray.

from what you've laid out, it seems more to me that your scenario is more of a product of cultural misunderstanding than anything. perhaps what you've stated is a good reason not to have a prayer at such an event... but it certainly isn't a good reason to prevent a group from doing so.

-M

Hi there!.

Ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?

I'm asking because we took a client to a game. The prayer started and he immediately got upset to the point that we had to take him back to his hotel and apologize profusely.

He was from India and apparently thought we had shanghaid him into some sort of religious ceremony prior to an NBA game.

Needless to say, we won't be taking anymore clients to games.

I don't think non-citizens from foreign cultures are the target participant we're discussing here.

Hi there!.

Ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?

I'm asking because we took a client to a game. The prayer started and he immediately got upset to the point that we had to take him back to his hotel and apologize profusely.

He was from India and apparently thought we had shanghaid him into some sort of religious ceremony prior to an NBA game.

Needless to say, we won't be taking anymore clients to games.

Wow... are your clients usually culturally insensitive jackasses?

wow... are your clients usually culturally insensitive jackasses?

lmao... priceless.

-M

the context of my remark was under 'coercion'... while it's possible that neither you nor your client had ample opportunity to 'get the heck out of dodge' before the prayer began, nobody was physically forced to stay. nobody was 'coerced' to pray.

I had intended to back off the word "coerced," as it might have been too strong and was certainly hastily chosen; but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect it was dead on. It's not feasible to leave a sporting event during a pregame prayer; by the time you realize its happening and start to leave, the prayer is over. I suppose that limits your choices to joining the prayer or ignoring it. If you join, are you doing so because you truly want to pray at that moment or is it just easier to go along with the group; or worse because you're afraid of being singled out as a malcontent? For those that have ever thought about not participating in a group prayer, didn't you secretly fear someone was going to point out your non-participation by yelling, "Stone him" or, 'heretic" or perhaps just saying something personally embarrassing? But seriously, if a prayer isn't you're idea, and you're just going along, what good is it? It would seem its only real function is to separate the sheep from those who really don't like the unchanging nature of the view from the middle of a flock.

I think it's nice that they pray before games. To me, it's up to the players and coaches what they do and I think to those of us that are religious, a prayer can mean a lot.If there are players that don't care to participate, they can stand quietly, and not spoil the moment for the others. With the way our team is playing, I think a prayer might just be a good thing.

I had intended to back off the word "coerced," as it might have been too strong and was certainly hastily chosen; but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect it was dead on. It's not feasible to leave a sporting event during a pregame prayer; by the time you realize its happening and start to leave, the prayer is over. I suppose that limits your choices to joining the prayer or ignoring it. If you join, are you doing so because you truly want to pray at that moment or is it just easier to go along with the group; or worse because you're afraid of being singled out as a malcontent? For those that have ever thought about not participating in a group prayer, didn't you secretly fear someone was going to point out your non-participation by yelling, "Stone him" or, 'heretic" or perhaps just saying something personally embarrassing? But seriously, if a prayer isn't you're idea, and you're just going along, what good is it? It would seem its only real function is to separate the sheep from those who really don't like the unchanging nature of the view from the middle of a flock.



Then don't go to NBA games in OKC. You don't have a fundamental right to do so. This isn't a government function.

I had intended to back off the word "coerced," as it might have been too strong and was certainly hastily chosen; but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect it was dead on. It's not feasible to leave a sporting event during a pregame prayer; by the time you realize its happening and start to leave, the prayer is over. I suppose that limits your choices to joining the prayer or ignoring it. If you join, are you doing so because you truly want to pray at that moment or is it just easier to go along with the group; or worse because you're afraid of being singled out as a malcontent? For those that have ever thought about not participating in a group prayer, didn't you secretly fear someone was going to point out your non-participation by yelling, "Stone him" or, 'heretic" or perhaps just saying something personally embarrassing? But seriously, if a prayer isn't you're idea, and you're just going along, what good is it? It would seem its only real function is to separate the sheep from those who really don't like the unchanging nature of the view from the middle of a flock.

I actually feel uncomfortable participating in group prayers outside of church. Ordinarily, while everyone bows their heads and prays, I just look around the room and wait for it to be over. It's no big ass deal.

And to date, no one has suggested I be stoned.

At least not for that.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think your feelings are all that reasonable. Further, I think your fears are completely unfounded. Heck.. I've not bowed my head to pray at funerals, sporting events, church, you name it, I've not bowed my head at it.... and I've lived to tell the tale.

Just realize that this is the culture you live in and people are going to do what they want to do. When you are the 1% in the crowd who disagrees, your feelings do not take precedent over the desires of the 99% who think everything is fine. And for what it's worth, count me among the 99%.

Wow... are your clients usually culturally insensitive jackasses?


lmao... priceless.

-M

wow, seriously?

and people wonder why Oklahoma has such a hard time attracting new business....

yes... seriously.

actually, i don't think businesses are afraid of having a work pool that's 'too christian' or 'too prayerful.' for some reason, i don't think that's way high on their list of things they don't want.

we don't have to apologize for who and what we are. hell i'm not even one of those folks who feels the need to pray in public, but that's the sort of city i live in... just roll with it. getting offended by prayer is silly. get offended by homelessness or poverty or crime or drugs or stuff that you know... actually matters and actually does more than make you feel unjustifiably uncomfortable in a public setting.

and people wonder why oklahoma has such a hard time attracting new business....

the point is that cultural sensitivity is a two-way street.

but... nice attempt at sniping. try to put some thought into your assertions next time. someone might actually take you seriously.

-M

the point is that cultural sensitivity is a two-way street.

but... nice attempt at sniping. try to put some thought into your assertions next time. someone might actually take you seriously.

-M

no, I know what the point is and the comments on here make it perfectly clear that the "2-way street" is only applicable to non-christians.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me, I see it every single day in this city.

no, I know what the point is and the comments on here make it perfectly clear that the "2-way street" is only applicable to non-christians.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me, I see it every single day in this city.

ah... so tolerant.

so open-minded.

how dare those religious people worship in a public setting! those bastards!

If I went somewhere and they had a Muslim praying so I left, everyone and their brother would think I was a loon. Even the Christians.

It IS culturally insensitive to pitch a fit because someone prays in public.

no, I know what the point is and the comments on here make it perfectly clear that the "2-way street" is only applicable to non-christians.

Not at all. If I were in India and found myself for whatever reason in a religious or cultural situation unfamiliar to me, I would be respectful, not get pissed and run back to my hotel.


I had intended to back off the word "coerced," as it might have been too strong and was certainly hastily chosen; but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect it was dead on. It's not feasible to leave a sporting event during a pregame prayer; by the time you realize its happening and start to leave, the prayer is over. I suppose that limits your choices to joining the prayer or ignoring it.

No it's not feasible to leave, so either don't come at all, or come a few minutes late so you miss the prayer. Easy peasy.

When are you all going to get over this topic already? Move on...

but but dad ... we were just passing time waiting for another super secret someday to be shared mondo mega announcement on something truly wonderfully fantastical to appear somewhere ... over the rainbow , c'mon everybody join in, bluebirds fly ...

I'm still wondering where the pie is.....

but but dad ... we were just passing time waiting for another super secret someday to be shared mondo mega announcement on something truly wonderfully fantastical to appear somewhere ... over the rainbow , c'mon everybody join in, bluebirds fly ...

Are you channeling Bob Dylan?


I'm still wondering where the pie is.....

I ate it.

...I ate it.

Well, at least that explains the smell.....

Wow, I realize religion is a hugely controversial topic that can be argued and argued until the end of time, but geez, I just cannot understand why SOME people are so nit picky and so sensitive to the issues concerning it. There is so much more going on in the world, more important things than public prayer to get your panties in a bunch over. I also realize this thread has probably gone on far too long and I am not helping by adding to it, but it just boggles my mind.

Wow, I realize religion is a hugely controversial topic that can be argued and argued until the end of time, but geez, I just cannot understand why SOME people are so nit picky and so sensitive to the issues concerning it. There is so much more going on in the world, more important things than public prayer to get your panties in a bunch over.

Religion does not seem to be your passion. It IS for many. For many, religion is important enough to fly into buildings and blow up babies. Even for those people who don't share the religious belief that violence is permissible, their passion for their religion is just as strong. Recall that there were riots and calls for death over CARTOONS?????