That's too bad. Welp, just when you think people have changed... they squash your hope.

Time to replace some people at BOA.

the easements clearly create a unique hardship for this property

the easements clearly create a unique hardship for this property

They were likely CLEARLY on the purchase documents when they bought the property. That should hardly be allowed to be a hardship.

Sid, as for replacing BOA members... when one BOA member voted against the Sandridge tear-downs, he was shortly thereafter replaced on the board. Coincidence? We'll never know...

Yep, this sucks. Oh well, at least we will have something to point to in the future as an example of bad design.

How so? Was the building design already approved?

yes bricktown Design already approved them

yes bricktown Design already approved them

Which I still argue shouldn't have happened either. I wish the process had been turned around and BOA had been required first.

Why, because the build-able lot isn't a square?

You mean for this Use as designed? I know that's what you meant.

one of the great things about this country property rights exist .. and very reasonable BOA members (as well as city staff) thought the crossing easements were a hardship/unusual situation

No doubt about it - people in America a free to make mistakes.

This is exactly the reason OKC needs to move to a Smart Code.

http://www.smartcodecentral.com/

The problem is too many people in OKC still have a suburban-oriented mindset. They don't think about things like density and Walkability and think everything must be designed around the automobile. Fortunately OKC has a very vocal segment of the population that are urbanists and want to see more urban development downtown, and because of that we are seeing great proects happening, but sometimes the suburban-minded majority are still going to get their way like with the Staybridge Suites and Lower Bricktown.

At least OKC hasn't gone as far as to turn down a W hotel to build a parking lot or demolish a 5-story office building for a fast food restaurant like Little Rock did.

one of the great things about this country property rights exist .. and very reasonable BOA members (as well as city staff) thought the crossing easements were a hardship/unusual situation

Once again, I'd only call it a hardship if no one knew the crossing easements existed. It would be absurd to say that the owner didn't know they were there. If they bought the property without knowing, why should OKC suffer for some developer's mistake?

Once again, I'd only call it a hardship if no one knew the crossing easements existed. It would be absurd to say that the owner didn't know they were there. If they bought the property without knowing, why should OKC suffer for some developer's mistake?

Even that scenario is too lenient. It should only be a hardship if it renders the lot unbuildable for anything. The problem is Staybridge only has 2 sets of designs and neither one of those designs fit on the property. The solution should have been for the developer to come up with a site-specific design. Instead the city bends because the developer only wanted to use the off-the-shelf plan.

Once again, I'd only call it a hardship if no one knew the crossing easements existed. It would be absurd to say that the owner didn't know they were there. If they bought the property without knowing, why should OKC suffer for some developer's mistake?

i see that argument .... i will also say that if the BOA had denied that application i think a court would have overturned the ruling if the applicant had chosen to go that route

Is there a master plan for Bricktown? Or East Bricktown? If there was, and it showed the vision for this area being more urban, would it be more difficult for something this non-urban to go in? If there is not one, how quickly could we create one? What entity would be responsible for that? Take the dues from that entity and hire a consultant to develop a master plan for East Bricktown (if there isn't already one), accounting for all the planned projects in the area (hotels, apartments, new wormy dog, etc) and designed in an urban way and have that adopted as a master plan for the area to prevent the upcoming projects from going non-urban in design, if not also this one... any of this doable and/or worthwhile to do?

http://www.okc.gov/planning/downtown/bricktownplan.pdf

Page 67.

Is there a master plan for Bricktown?

Apparently, the plan is to recreate Meridian.

Apparently, the plan is to recreate Meridian.

South side of Reno is doing a damn fine job...

http://www.okc.gov/planning/downtown/bricktownplan.pdf

Page 67.

funny that the hotel shown on this lot in that plan could not be build ..

funny that the hotel shown on this lot in that plan could not be build ..

Why couldn't it be built?

Why couldn't it be built?

the easements that cross the property

the easements that cross the property

The easements don't cross where the image of that hotel is.

The easements don't cross where the image of that hotel is.

yes they do ..

It's interesting looking at page 18 of that plan and seeing all the surface parking lots.

funny that the hotel shown on this lot in that plan could not be build ..

What's funny is that looking at that plan makes you realize what a colossal fail this is. So much for a plan...

I think if OKC is to have the kind of walkable district with critical mass people on this site desire, its not going to be Bricktown. Film Row and the Plaza should be where urbanists focus their effort. Blue Dome and Brady in Tulsa sprung up out of nowhere so there is no reason such a district couldn't come to fruition in OKC sooner rather than later with the right investments. Bricktown is and will remain for tourists, people coming into town from rural Oklahoma for a "big city" experience, and dance clubs. These developments are being built to primarily cater to them, who don't care about walkability or urban feel. It's sad but its the truth.

Lots of residential coming to Bricktown bchris02.

I think if OKC is to have the kind of walkable district with critical mass people on this site desire, its not going to be Bricktown. Film Row and the Plaza should be where urbanists focus their effort. Blue Dome and Brady in Tulsa sprung up out of nowhere so there is no reason such a district couldn't come to fruition in OKC sooner rather than later with the right investments. Bricktown is and will remain for tourists, people coming into town from rural Oklahoma for a "big city" experience, and dance clubs. These developments are being built to primarily cater to them, who don't care about walkability or urban feel. It's sad but its the truth.

There is tons of local in bricktown right now

Will OKC ever learn? Seriously. I think this is a fair question. Will the same mistakes be made over and over and over....

I think if OKC is to have the kind of walkable district with critical mass people on this site desire, its not going to be Bricktown. Film Row and the Plaza should be where urbanists focus their effort. Blue Dome and Brady in Tulsa sprung up out of nowhere so there is no reason such a district couldn't come to fruition in OKC sooner rather than later with the right investments. Bricktown is and will remain for tourists, people coming into town from rural Oklahoma for a "big city" experience, and dance clubs. These developments are being built to primarily cater to them, who don't care about walkability or urban feel. It's sad but its the truth.

I'm not as down on Bricktown as you, but there is some truth to what you're saying. There's still a lot to enjoy in Bricktown, IMO, but I agree that it has failed to reach its vision and that it has failed to become a truly urban oriented entertainment district and that projects like this are an indicator that there may really be no intent to make it such.

As for such a district existing in Oklahoma city, I would say that deep deuce and midtown are even further along than film row or plaza, though I am not counting those out. The reality is that we're beginning to see a larger contiguous urban area from deep deuce, up AA, and over into midtown. A few more bits and pieces and you will have a real urban center compromised of those connected districts, one that you can actually move between on foot or bike. The irony is that there has been less oversight and direction in those areas (though not non existent). The developers there didn't need to be told how to do urban or how to make their projects fit into the districts. They just knew that it was the most profitable and sustainable Thing to do. Despite bricktowns much greater traffic and revenue potential, the oversight boards still have to fight developers insistent on completely ignoring the district's aesthetic or urban ambitions. This is just another example of them getting a proposal that ignores any of their stated goals and why Bricktown's ceiliing of potential just got a little bit lower and it's long term sustainability gets a little more questionable.

How is this hotel. That will be full for pretty much forever not "sustainable"

Come on, you've heard the answer to this question many, many times. You're just trolling. :)

Not trolling serious question. How is a hotel that will be booked 7 nights a week from day 1 Not "sustainable".

I know it is not ideal and it is not the most urban design. But that is not the question

While I agree that many regrettable design decisions have been and continue to be made in Bricktown, it is funny that Jeff Speck labeled Bricktown the most walkable of all of the districts in the city.

I normally bite my tongue when people say Bricktown "is for tourists only" or "isn't local" or "is only a bunch of chain places" or "is dead during the week" or "only seasonal" because in general Internet arguments are such a waste of time.

But what is obvious to me is that people who make these statements have an extremely limited perspective on the district. Usually they are the same people who freely offer that they "never go to Bricktown," which explains a lot. Clearly Bricktown is no longer the hip or edgy district downtown. But I have 25 years experience with the district both as a consumer and as a business operator, and it has NEVER been consistently as busy as it is today, nearly every day, year around.

Is it popular with visitors? Yes, no question it is. But don't kid yourself, every district would LOVE to attract visitors to that extent, and we should aspire as a community to spread those visitor dollars elsewhere too. Personally I have worked with merchants and district leaders in specifically Midtown, Automobile Alley, Stockyards City, Film Row, Paseo and most notably Plaza to do exactly that, and trust me, they are understandably eager to attract visitors. Tourist dollars filtering into those districts makes them more healthy, viable, and supports OKC residents' quality of life. I don't understand some posters' thinly-veiled contempt for visitors.

Despite being popular with visitors, by far Bricktown is used even more heavily by locals; an incredible diverse cross-section of them actually. They just use the district differently than visitors do; they are very purpose-driven and don't necessarily stroll or linger. The diversity of the visitors also probably leads to the misunderstanding/contempt some on here have for it. Let's be honest; for some the term "local" has become a euphemism for people who look/dress/think/consume/act in a certain way and really has little to do with where a person lives. If you have a big belt buckle, or a business suit, or an Ed Hardy shirt, or blingy, embroidered-back-pocket jeans, or a sideways ball cap, you don't fit some people's definition of a "local." I'm sorry, that's the truth.

But back to the matter at hand. The design is poor, I disagree with the approach and agree with the premise that the easements shouldn't have been (and probably weren't) a surprise to the developer so probably shouldn't have qualified for "relief." There almost certainly was a design that could have been done to creatively deal with the problems and still make for a good urban environment. That said, I think it is fortunate that this will be on the east side of Lincoln, and likely won't negatively impact Bricktown THAT much. The real danger is that it could be used as a precedent for other such waffling elsewhere in the district.

Will OKC ever learn? Seriously. I think this is a fair question. Will the same mistakes be made over and over and over....

And your answer is, "yes."

That is, unless citizens fight and fight hard. The city can be pushed into doing the right thing, but it takes a ton of effort from committed and passionate citizens to make it happen. There are so many bad decisions made so frequently, it's hard to muster that much opposition concurrently.

But recent history suggests that focused and disciplined activism by citizens and business owners can and does create positive change.

While I agree that many regrettable design decisions have been and continue to be made in Bricktown, it is funny that Jeff Speck labeled Bricktown the most walkable of all of the districts in the city.

I normally bite my tongue when people say Bricktown "is for tourists only" or "isn't local" or "is only a bunch of chain places" or "is dead during the week" or "only seasonal" because in general Internet arguments are such a waste of time.

But what is obvious to me is that people who make these statements have an extremely limited perspective on the district. Usually they are the same people who freely offer that they "never go to Bricktown," which explains a lot. Clearly Bricktown is no longer the hip or edgy district downtown. But I have 25 years experience with the district both as a consumer and as a business operator, and it has NEVER been consistently as busy as it is today, nearly every day, year around.

Is it popular with visitors? Yes, no question it is. But don't kid yourself, every district would LOVE to attract visitors to that extent, and we should aspire as a community to spread those visitor dollars elsewhere too. Personally I have worked with merchants and district leaders in specifically Midtown, Automobile Alley, Stockyards City, Film Row, Paseo and most notably Plaza to do exactly that, and trust me, they are understandably eager to attract visitors. Tourist dollars filtering into those districts makes them more healthy, viable, and supports OKC residents' quality of life. I don't understand some posters' thinly-veiled contempt for visitors.

Despite being popular with visitors, by far Bricktown is used even more heavily by locals; an incredible diverse cross-section of them actually. They just use the district differently than visitors do; they are very purpose-driven and don't necessarily stroll or linger. The diversity of the visitors also probably leads to the misunderstanding/contempt some on here have for it. Let's be honest; for some the term "local" has become a euphemism for people who look/dress/think/consume/act in a certain way and really has little to do with where a person lives. If you have a big belt buckle, or a business suit, or an Ed Hardy shirt, or blingy, embroidered-back-pocket jeans, or a sideways ball cap, you don't fit some people's definition of a "local." I'm sorry, that's the truth.

But back to the matter at hand. The design is poor, I disagree with the approach and agree with the premise that the easements shouldn't have been (and probably weren't) a surprise to the developer so probably shouldn't have qualified for "relief." There almost certainly was a design that could have been done to creatively deal with the problems and still make for a good urban environment. That said, I think it is fortunate that this will be on the east side of Lincoln, and likely won't negatively impact Bricktown THAT much. The real danger is that it could be used as a precedent for other such waffling elsewhere in the district.

This!

But recent history suggests that focused and disciplined activism by citizens and business owners can and does create positive change.

Yeah, it's definitely not all for naught. Frankly, we might have not even shown up for this one. But I will say it's also frustrating to realize that you kind of have to stage a massive battle in order to win these fights. And is a piddly little Staybridge Suites worth that? Granted, it would have probably been a much easier win.. :/

How is this hotel. That will be full for pretty much forever not "sustainable"

The only way the bricktown hotels stay full "forever" as room inventory increases is if bricktown's attractiveness to visitors increases with that capacity. This project adds inventory without contributing to the future of bricktown as a marketable district. Sustainability is achieved only when each element contributes to the health of an area instead of just leeching off it. Basically, it's a parasite of the demand created by other elements and uses resources currently available to raise bricktown's profile and actually lowers it.

The success of projects in bricktown should no longer be measured in isolation, but in context of their accumulative effect on the area. I understand your perspective, but don't think it functions in the real world with humans in it. Taken to the extreme, your position would dictate that there really is no need for any buildings to deviate from the lowest cost to function ratio possible. The problem with it is that it just creates opportunity for competing markets to take market share. The real difference between your perspective and mine is that you're worried about Staybridge and I am worried about Bricktown / OKC.

I the end, am I worried that junk won't sell? Not at all. Am I worried that bricktown's marketability can't be sustained by junk? Definitely.


The real danger is that it could be used as a precedent for other such waffling elsewhere in the district.

This, indeed.


But I will say it's also frustrating to realize that you kind of have to stage a massive battle in order to win these fights.

Yes, these battles should not even have to be fought. It is indicative of the district's future that it still can not attract developers with any ambition or consideration for the existing elements that are actually responsible for the demand that will make their project profitable. If quality developers were interested, we wouldn't have the problem as they understand through experience that longevity is only possible if their developers contribute as much to the demand of an area as they feed of it.

Despite being popular with visitors, by far Bricktown is used even more heavily by locals; an incredible diverse cross-section of them actually. They just use the district differently than visitors do; they are very purpose-driven and don't necessarily stroll or linger. The diversity of the visitors also probably leads to the misunderstanding/contempt some on here have for it. Let's be honest; for some the term "local" has become a euphemism for people who look/dress/think/consume/act in a certain way and really has little to do with where a person lives. If you have a big belt buckle, or a business suit, or an Ed Hardy shirt, or blingy, embroidered-back-pocket jeans, or a sideways ball cap, you don't fit some people's definition of a "local." I'm sorry, that's the truth.


I've been trying to say this in so many words but you put it perfectly.

The beauty of our downtown is that it is inclusive to all walks of life. I mean, isn't that what truly healthy urban areas should be? I think some people have fantasies that DT be filled with SWPL-type, urban professionals on their Vespas and wearing skinny jeans. While that crowd is nice, it is ridiculous to think that should be the only people to enjoy DT, especially in a city as big and diverse as ours. And its especially condescending to consider this area be exclusive to one group when DT largely owes its rebirth to taxpayer funded initiatives that were voted on and paid by the entire city.

I think its great we have districts popping up in and around the central city that provide different flavors for different people. But Bricktown will always be the premiere district that has a little bit for everybody. That's the way it should be.

Sorry for getting off topic. Ad yes I agree this hotel looks like crap. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

The only way the bricktown hotels stay full "forever" as room inventory increases is if bricktown's attractiveness to visitors increases with that capacity. This project adds inventory without contributing to the future of bricktown as a marketable district. Sustainability is achieved only when each element contributes to the health of an area instead of just leeching off it. Basically, it's a parasite of the demand created by other elements and uses resources currently available to raise bricktown's profile and actually lowers it.

The success of projects in bricktown should no longer be measured in isolation, but in context of their accumulative effect on the area. I understand your perspective, but don't think it functions in the real world with humans in it. Taken to the extreme, your position would dictate that there really is no need for any buildings to deviate from the lowest cost to function ratio possible. The problem with it is that it just creates opportunity for competing markets to take market share. The real difference between your perspective and mine is that you're worried about Staybridge and I am worried about Bricktown / OKC.

I the end, am I worried that junk won't sell? Not at all. Am I worried that bricktown's marketability can't be sustained by junk? Definitely.



This, indeed.



Yes, these battles should not even have to be fought. It is indicative of the district's future that it still can not attract developers with any ambition or consideration for the existing elements that are actually responsible for the demand that will make their project profitable. If quality developers were interested, we wouldn't have the problem as they understand through experience that longevity is only possible if their developers contribute as much to the demand of an area as they feed of it.

Holly cow that is some good stuff.

Developers know they can get away with going cheap in OKC so that's what they do. They know suburban works and there isn't a very strict standard of urbanity in Bricktown so that's what they go for. They know surface parking is what works so that is what they go for. Developers are in it for the money. They want to design something as cheap as possible to make the most money as possible. In a market with much higher standards than ours, this wouldn't be an issue because this development would be designed to the standard that works in that market.

OKC set a bad precedent when they allows Bass Pro to plop in a standard big box right on the canal. From the very beginning there should have been a vision for Bricktown and ordinances put into place to enforce that vision, rather than the first-come-first-serve development policy that we got.

To be fair, I don't think people realized what they had when the canal was first created. Go back and look at Bricktown pre-canal and I think we can cut people some slack for Bass Pro, despite the fact that I wish it would disappear. But a lot has happened since then and we don't have to be grateful for development anymore, even on the far edges. Now it's time to make people pay for the privilege of putting a building downtown. We can set standards and allow people to sell if they don't want to comply.

Have not been keeping up with this project. When's construction start/end?

Have not been keeping up with this project. When's construction start/end?

should start this summer

OKC set a bad precedent when they allows Bass Pro to plop in a standard big box right on the canal.

They not only allowed it, but incentivized it, which kind of sent the message that not only will we tolerate it, but we want it so bad we'll help you do it.

And it's one thing to issue variances for something that adds to the area, like allowing Aloft to build above Maywood's height restriction, and another to constantly issue variances to dumb down a project and, as in this case, allowing junk to be built in the first place. It is becoming more and more ironic how Bricktown has had all the direct public investment and has more established formalized development oversight, but has had to allow for one compromise after another for cheapness. We have yet to see a request for variance to make something better or more interesting that results in increased investment. Meanwhile the emerging districts seem to be getting all the urban stuff that actually fits in with the current surroundings. With the exception of the ball park, it seems as if Bricktown wouldn't have been much different today if it never got improvements like the canal. Most businesses have ignored the canal completely and just about every new development proposed for the area has or at one time attempted to completely ignore the district's aesthetic and the vision of it being a premier urban entertainment district.

It's doing well now, but these kind of developments are what really giving DD, AA, and MT the opportunity to overtake it as the main entertainment districts downtown.

They not only allowed it, but incentivized it, which kind of sent the message that not only will we tolerate it, but we want it so bad we'll help you do it.

And it's one thing to issue variances for something that adds to the area, like allowing Aloft to build above Maywood's height restriction, and another to constantly issue variances to dumb down a project and, as in this case, allowing junk to be built in the first place. It is becoming more and more ironic how Bricktown has had all the direct public investment and has more established formalized development oversight, but has had to allow for one compromise after another for cheapness. We have yet to see a request for variance to make something better or more interesting that results in increased investment. Meanwhile the emerging districts seem to be getting all the urban stuff that actually fits in with the current surroundings. With the exception of the ball park, it seems as if Bricktown wouldn't have been much different today if it never got improvements like the canal. Most businesses have ignored the canal completely and just about every new development proposed for the area has or at one time attempted to completely ignore the district's aesthetic and the vision of it being a premier urban entertainment district.

It's doing well now, but these kind of developments are what really giving DD, AA, and MT the opportunity to overtake it as the main entertainment districts downtown.

Which to me is fine. Bricktown is not the ONLY thing downtown nor should it be. We should have a downtown with an ultra urban CBD surrounded by a variety of hopping districts. Sure Bricktown was first more or less and received the most from MAPS, but let us consider that no to almost no MAPS money went into AA, MT, DD, and FR yet as you mentioned those districts are thriving and rapidly growing! Sure I want lower Bricktown to add density (or start over) and for Bricktown itself to be more urban but I know that will take time given where OKC started, and I am pleased that the other districts are not only urban and thriving but are mostly PRIVATE and organic development. Bricktown was the loosely planned family day/adult night catalyst for it all and I think we have a great resurgence elsewhere in downtown where the focus is truly urban (and adult).

They not only allowed it, but incentivized it, which kind of sent the message that not only will we tolerate it, but we want it so bad we'll help you do it.

And it's one thing to issue variances for something that adds to the area, like allowing Aloft to build above Maywood's height restriction, and another to constantly issue variances to dumb down a project and, as in this case, allowing junk to be built in the first place. It is becoming more and more ironic how Bricktown has had all the direct public investment and has more established formalized development oversight, but has had to allow for one compromise after another for cheapness. We have yet to see a request for variance to make something better or more interesting that results in increased investment. Meanwhile the emerging districts seem to be getting all the urban stuff that actually fits in with the current surroundings. With the exception of the ball park, it seems as if Bricktown wouldn't have been much different today if it never got improvements like the canal. Most businesses have ignored the canal completely and just about every new development proposed for the area has or at one time attempted to completely ignore the district's aesthetic and the vision of it being a premier urban entertainment district.

It's doing well now, but these kind of developments are what really giving DD, AA, and MT the opportunity to overtake it as the main entertainment districts downtown.

the quality of the project (building materials ect) has nothing to do with the BOA process

I have never understood this notion that somehow the downtown districts are competing with one another. I think all of them are combining to make DOWNTOWN a more attractive destination in which to live, work and play. All of the emerging districts can and should learn from Bricktown's successes AND misadventures throughout the years, and Bricktown can - and should - take lessons from some of the things other districts are doing well (volunteer/local engagement, unified approach among stakeholders, development of outside spaces, etc..).

Our competition is in the suburbs and exurbs. As long as people are coming downtown - anywhere downtown - to be entertained (or to live, or to work), it is good for all of downtown. I even think that places like Western Avenue and Plaza District benefit downtown districts, and the other way around. We are all getting our customers into the habit of seeking fulfillment in the inner city.

It is GOOD for Bricktown to have other downtown districts thrive. Few people want to only have a single option for entertainment, dining, socializing. That leads to customer fatigue and apathy. I think we've seen evidence of this here, and actually the timing is fortunate for Bricktown that other districts are now taking some of the pressure off. This allows Bricktown to (hopefully) enjoy some of that same organic growth that others have. Skinny Slim's, Guestroom, Norm's and other places are good recent examples of this, I think.

I have been very consistent in this thinking for many years. Downtown's development is not a zero sum game; this has already been proven. We are not cutting up thinner and thinner slices of the same pie. We are baking a bigger pie.

the quality of the project (building materials ect) has nothing to do with the BOA process

I know. Thanks.



Which to me is fine. Bricktown is not the ONLY thing downtown nor should it be. We should have a downtown with an ultra urban CBD surrounded by a variety of hopping districts. Sure Bricktown was first more or less and received the most from MAPS, but let us consider that no to almost no MAPS money went into AA, MT, DD, and FR yet as you mentioned those districts are thriving and rapidly growing! Sure I want lower Bricktown to add density (or start over) and for Bricktown itself to be more urban but I know that will take time given where OKC started, and I am pleased that the other districts are not only urban and thriving but are mostly PRIVATE and organic development. Bricktown was the loosely planned family day/adult night catalyst for it all and I think we have a great resurgence elsewhere in downtown where the focus is truly urban (and adult).

I agree. I didn't mean to say that I don't like what's going on in other parts of downtown. It was more just an observation that the district with the most oversight and most public investment has had to make the most compromises so far and it is a possibility that, due to those compromises, it will eventually see declines as more people ( and their money ) go elsewhere when visiting the city.

Our competition is in the suburbs and exurbs.

Which is why bricktown should not compete the suburbs by trying to be like the suburbs with projects like this.


I have never understood this notion that somehow the downtown districts are competing with one another.

They all benefit the city and downtown, but as more options arise they are essentially competing with each other at the conversion level. They all work together to help bring customers downtown, but once that decision has been made it becomes competitive on the micro level to convert the visitor into a customer. If you want to hang out downtown, where do you want to spend your time? Which district has the best restaurants, shops, easiest accessibility and overall best experience. It's just like Malls compete against each other on one level, then stores within the mall compete on another. The same thing played out in Dallas for a long time.

Basically, I probably don't spend more money downtown than I used to, but whereas 4 years ago that money probably went was an 80 / 20 split between the Bricktown and CBD. Now its split more like 70 / 20 / 10 between Midtown (including AA) / CBD / Bricktown.

But either way, it actually makes the case stronger that Bricktown should try harder, not compromise more, to maintain its relevance in the downtown mix. Certainly differentiation is good, and quality compromise hurts all of downtown.

I think people are a little too worried about how this project is going to affect the future development of Bricktown. It's somewhere between sucks and blah, for sure...but I don't think that all of the sudden the most important parts of Bricktown are all of the sudden going to start leveling buildings for parking lots. If this site were done correctly, the urban principles wouldn't even be useful until, at the very least, the Coca-Cola Events Center parking lot is developed, but probably also the North Bass Pro Lot, and the lot to the east of McDonalds. In other words...this lot is purely a drive-to lot for the foreseeable future. Nobody will be walking over there until 2025 or later.

If anything, it sucks for the actual developers that they created a less walkable development, because this hotel will likely be the least successful of all the hotels being constructed in the downtown area.

The bass pro setup has always annoyed me. Could have been so much cooler if they had modified it to be more urban and run part of the canal through it or something.

I think people are a little too worried about how this project is going to affect the future development of Bricktown. It's somewhere between sucks and blah, for sure...but I don't think that all of the sudden the most important parts of Bricktown are all of the sudden going to start leveling buildings for parking lots. If this site were done correctly, the urban principles wouldn't even be useful until, at the very least, the Coca-Cola Events Center parking lot is developed, but probably also the North Bass Pro Lot, and the lot to the east of McDonalds. In other words...this lot is purely a drive-to lot for the foreseeable future. Nobody will be walking over there until 2025 or later.

If anything, it sucks for the actual developers that they created a less walkable development, because this hotel will likely be the least successful of all the hotels being constructed in the downtown area.

and by least successful .. you mean it will be full almost every night year round for the foreseeable future

Which is why bricktown should not compete the suburbs by trying to be like the suburbs with projects like this.



They all benefit the city and downtown, but as more options arise they are essentially competing with each other at the conversion level. They all work together to help bring customers downtown, but once that decision has been made it becomes competitive on the micro level to convert the visitor into a customer. If you want to hang out downtown, where do you want to spend your time? Which district has the best restaurants, shops, easiest accessibility and overall best experience. It's just like Malls compete against each other on one level, then stores within the mall compete on another. The same thing played out in Dallas for a long time.

Basically, I probably don't spend more money downtown than I used to, but whereas 4 years ago that money probably went was an 80 / 20 split between the Bricktown and CBD. Now its split more like 70 / 20 / 10 between Midtown (including AA) / CBD / Bricktown.

But either way, it actually makes the case stronger that Bricktown should try harder, not compromise more, to maintain its relevance in the downtown mix. Certainly differentiation is good, and quality compromise hurts all of downtown.
Where have I ever suggested Bricktown should compromise? Quite the opposite.

Nobody will be walking over there until 2025 or later.

It will be much longer now.

However there is urban development going in a block away to the north which will probably be completed within a year of this project. In Bricktown, everything that is not surface parking now will probably be fully developed by 2020. Whether or not this side will be an integrated part of Bricktown at that time will be decided by this project and what goes in between it and the metal fabricators project. After that, it will be up to surface lot owners whether they will consider redeveloping those lots. If they haven't done it by now, they will wait until there is no where else to develop before they consider giving up their zero overhead cash cows.

Where have I ever suggested Bricktown should compromise? Quite the opposite.

I didn't mean to suggest you did. I was just trying to qualify my comments that I felt motivated your response.

It will be much longer now.

However there is urban development going in a block away to the north which will probably be completed within a year of this project. In Bricktown, everything that is not surface parking now will probably be fully developed by 2020. Whether or not this side will be an integrated part of Bricktown at that time will be decided by this project and what goes in between it and the metal fabricators project. After that, it will be up to surface lot owners whether they will consider redeveloping those lots. If they haven't done it by now, they will wait until there is no where else to develop before they consider giving up their zero overhead cash cows.

on the opposite side of a divided street .. with nothing in between

Which to me is fine. Bricktown is not the ONLY thing downtown nor should it be. We should have a downtown with an ultra urban CBD surrounded by a variety of hopping districts. Sure Bricktown was first more or less and received the most from MAPS, but let us consider that no to almost no MAPS money went into AA, MT, DD, and FR yet as you mentioned those districts are thriving and rapidly growing! Sure I want lower Bricktown to add density (or start over) and for Bricktown itself to be more urban but I know that will take time given where OKC started, and I am pleased that the other districts are not only urban and thriving but are mostly PRIVATE and organic development. Bricktown was the loosely planned family day/adult night catalyst for it all and I think we have a great resurgence elsewhere in downtown where the focus is truly urban (and adult).

If the current trend continues, I definitely agree with others here that Bricktown will suffer in the long run as other districts "done right" reach critical mass. It's really sad because of the potential that was there with Bricktown and the amenity that the canal is. A lot of people comment about the lack of people walking along the canal, but that is the case because developers have not built to make the best use of the canal. They have built as cheaply as possible because that is the precedent that has been set. As has been said, once OKC has a better option for an urban entertainment district, which won't take much due to the low standard set by Bricktown, people will go there instead.

I'm not sure if tourists and visitors from small-town Oklahoma can sustain lower Bricktown. It may eventually need to be repurposed.

i feel like half (or more) of the people on this thread don't go to bricktown and just make guesses about it

i feel like half (or more) of the people on this thread don't go to bricktown and just make guesses about it

I went there at lunch today and drove around the east side by this site. It has a lot of potential. It can very easily be integrated in to bricktown especially with empty lots across the street and the new developments to the north. This project will definitely hurt the potential for that. What's funny, is that the McDonald's will be more appealing than this place.

I went there at lunch today and drove around the east side by this site. It has a lot of potential. It can very easily be integrated in to bricktown especially with empty lots across the street and the new developments to the north. This project will definitely hurt the potential for that. What's funny, is that the McDonald's will be more appealing than this place.

there is not an empty lot across the street ... the gas station is across the street ... odot owned land that is part of the highway Right of way is to the north

there is not an empty lot across the street ... the gas station is across the street ... odot owned land that is part of the highway Right of way is to the north

Newmark Grubb Levy Strange Beffort - Bricktown Land, Commercial/Other (land), 100 S. Lincoln Boulevard, Oklahoma City, OK (http://looplink.okcity.grubb-ellis.com/xNet/Looplink/Profile/Profile.aspx?stid=brokers/grubbOklahomaCity&LID=18149800&LL=true&UOMListing=&UOMMoneyCurrency=&RentPer=PY&SRID=3299111570)

Notice how they are selling it as a bricktown site, which isn't a surpirse given that it's formally within the bricktown district. You can throw a rock from this to the Staybridge site. Also notice the developments to the north that will be a half a block away from this.

Newmark Grubb Levy Strange Beffort - Bricktown Land, Commercial/Other (land), 100 S. Lincoln Boulevard, Oklahoma City, OK (http://looplink.okcity.grubb-ellis.com/xNet/Looplink/Profile/Profile.aspx?stid=brokers/grubbOklahomaCity&LID=18149800&LL=true&UOMListing=&UOMMoneyCurrency=&RentPer=PY&SRID=3299111570)

Notice how they are selling it as a bricktown site, which isn't a surpirse given that it's formally within the bricktown district. You can throw a rock from this to the Staybridge site. Also notice the developments to the north that will be a half a block away from this.

again that lot is not "across the street" .... it is across the street and a block north .. if california went through the staybridge suites would be south of california and the lot you showed would not even border california

so not only are they not across the street .. they are also not adjacent on the diagonal .. (ie the peak and MBG)

again that lot is not "across the street" .... it is across the street and a block north .. if california went through the staybridge suites would be south of california and the lot you showed would not even border california

so not only are they not across the street .. they are also not adjacent on the diagonal .. (ie the peak and MBG)

LOL! 100' apart, sorry! Ha.

Is this awesome and high-quality project still happening?