Steve, is there any chance you could talk to ODOT again and get some clarification on this situation? It might seem trivial, but I'm really not understanding how they could allow a hotel to be built right next to the easement but want to retain it for some sort of structure... The hotel appears to be going right in the middle of the land they would need for something like that.

they don't have to wow the board or exceed the standards .. they have to meet the standards ..

Well, not in OKC anyway. Really just shows how far OKC has to go. In better markets developers will wow boards or exceed standards because it is simply what they need to do to compete. There is so much better stuff than this built all the time, especially when you're talking about something within half a mile of a city's biggest entertainment district, not because of guidelines set by regulatory bodies, but because market conditions dictate it is needed. The reality is that our market hasn't reached such a level because so much junk was allowed from the get go. Lower Bricktown really stunted the market standard for the area and Bricktown has been trying to overcome that with regulations when it can ever since.

So every time something like this comes out of the ground, it is added to the mix of developments that dictate the market conditions and drags the cumulative standard down with it. By now, the market environment down there should be that a developer would be embarrassed to pitch something like this, but they're not because it's close to what is already there. For some reason, after all the good that has been done in the area, the proposals the bricktown area gets indicate that developers still see it as no different than Meridian and 15th.

Hey, it's a huge corner lot. PERFECT for surface parking.

*facepalm*

where would you like patrons of this hotel to park??

Guys, hear me on this: this board, when it is at it's best, comes up with great brain-storming sessions and creative solutions to problems. This is the ultimate "outside the box" assembly of urban thinkers. I've already told you, this developer is indicating he wants to do the right thing, he just doesn't have urban experience. I've also told you he took great interest in the photo posted here on the S.C. Staybridge Suites. You can throw rocks, you can assume that he's making up the easement argument and continue to criticize. Or you can look at his site plan and come up with creative alternatives.

I am optimistic that since Patel has indicated he wants to invest in this area, that he is looking to nurture a positive record with Bricktown and the design review board. I'm remaining optimistic until this one gets farther down the process.

this is this developers only project in bricktown .. the other hotels are a different patel

In my neighborhood back in Seattle, this is where all the patrons are going to park:

https://plus.google.com/photos/108893052743238235905/albums/5844904221765860417

And note, the sidewalk is left open for pedestrians during construction. Such a novel idea.

there is no street parking in this part of bricktown .. there are no parking lots or side walks touching this property for any business to work at this exact location they would need parking and on this site the easement doesn't allow for a street-wall along lincoln or reno

How does this (red) occupy any more or different ROW than the proposal (white)?

http://gyazo.com/f559f9aa437a26e6e61820df471e387b.png?1360865524

Instead of going out, why don't they go up, instead of 5 story, make it 10? Then they could make street wall along Lincoln, without going over ODOT easment. Just To Facts can yo provide sketch up of what I am proposing?

Guys, hear me on this: this board, when it is at it's best, comes up with great brain-storming sessions and creative solutions to problems. This is the ultimate "outside the box" assembly of urban thinkers. I've already told you, this developer is indicating he wants to do the right thing, he just doesn't have urban experience. I've also told you he took great interest in the photo posted here on the S.C. Staybridge Suites. You can throw rocks, you can assume that he's making up the easement argument and continue to criticize. Or you can look at his site plan and come up with creative alternatives.

I think a lot of people on here did not even bother reading your article in which the design board pretty much spelled out the current design is unacceptable. This, coupled with you statement that the developer is ready and willing to modify the design, really makes it confusing how many people are throwing Mr. Patel under the bus. Truth be told this city has a so-so record of urban design and most developers here are used to Edmond/Norman/Moore standards. It's a learning process that all parties need embrace. I am going to withhold judgment until I see the final design.

Instead of going out, why don't they go up, instead of 5 story, make it 10? Then they could make street wall along Lincoln, without going over ODOT easment. Just To Facts can yo provide sketch up of what I am proposing?

you also just increased the cost enough to make it not viable

you also just increased the cost enough to make it not viable

That's the whole point, is the developer willing to invest the extra money to make this a viable urban development or settle?

you also just increased the cost enough to make it not viable

How are other 10 story hotels in Bricktown viable? There is one under construction 2 blocks away. It seems to me G.Walker has a good solution. Build twice as high and use half the ground space. Place it along Lincoln between the easment and the north property boundary and place parking between the building and the interstate. Sell off the land south of the easement for a drive-thru Starbucks on the corner.

there is no street parking in this part of bricktown .. there are no parking lots or side walks touching this property

Ummm, there's also not a hotel there, so I guess you're saying that we shouldn't even be talking about this because what this area is is all that it will ever be?

Yes, it sucks right now. Some people just don't want it to always suck. That's all.

you also just increased the cost enough to make it not viable

If the margin is really that small, I question whether it should be built at all.

It's a learning process that all parties need embrace.

True. It's just that it seems it would only take a day trip to Austin, Denver, or even Ft. Worth and the learning "process" would be complete. There are so many examples within a days drive of simple, uncomplicated developments that created successful urban enclaves where there previously were none or in areas that had been considered "undesirable" areas. And before anyone says it, I know Oklahoma City is not to the level of those markets yet (these proposals prove it), but maybe that's in part because stuff like this keeps getting built.

BTW, I understand that this project is not final and that the developer will consider revisions and that the board did not approve it, but, honestly, the fact that it was presented at all is indicative of a bigger problem that I just thought was worthy of discussion.

big difference in cost when you build higher than 5 stories

True. It's just that it seems it would only take a day trip to Austin, Denver, or even Ft. Worth and the learning "process" would be complete. There are so many examples within a days drive of simple, uncomplicated developments that created successful urban enclaves where their previously were none or in areas that had been considered "undesirable" areas. And before anyone says it, I know Oklahoma City is not to the level of those markets yet (these proposals prove it), but maybe that's in part because stuff like this keeps getting built.

BTW, I understand that this project is not final and that the developer will consider revisions and that the board did not approve it, but, honestly, the fact that it was presented at all is indicative of a bigger problem that I just thought was worthy of discussion.

It is kind of like Groundhog Day isn't it. Why does every new developer have to start over in the first box?

An acquaintance of mine recently inherited some small parcels of land near downtown Jax and a pretty good sum of money. He decided he wants to develop the land and asked if I could act as a sounding board or provide some urbanist input. We are scheduled to take a trip down to Ft Lauderdale and Miami at the end of the month so he can see New Urbanist ideas in action (he is also very interested in urban farming so if any of you can recommend some resources on that subject please post them in the New Urbanism Library thread). If I was going to spend million building downtown and I didn't know anything about it I would find someone like me and take a field trip. He wants to have a good idea of what he wants so he can find an architect that can design what he wants.

It only takes one developer to take a chance on a good urban development, and if successful, others will follow suit. I know there would be a cost difference, but is a developer willing to invest that extra money to make it better or settle? You even touched on that in your article, developers taking pride in their developments.

big difference in cost when you build higher than 5 stories

And if that cost is enough to blow up a hotel deal half a mile from bricktown, then it's worse than I thought. I always feel like we're making progress, but there's also constant reminders that OKC's market is far from competitive and, unfortunately, stuff like this can make it less desirable to visit and once again solidify bricktown's fate as one of stagnation.

Just the Facts, the ODOT easement, as I understand it, is marked by the slightly visible pathway that cuts diagonally across the corner just north of the billboard, and starts directly across from the entrance to the gas station.

The easement in question runs diagonally, NW to SE across the property. There is an underground structure, I think it is a 2- 7' x 9' Reinforced Concrete Box Culvert that drains, presumably, much of Bricktown. It can be seen on the SB3 picture on your blog post. These are two of the cells that are part of the 4-cell structure that drains onto the Oklahoma River on the SW corner of the I-40 / I-235 interchange.

That's not to say that it can't be relocated, but it will not be cheap to do so.

So the easement in question is not the abandoned railroad?

True. It's just that it seems it would only take a day trip to Austin, Denver, or even Ft. Worth and the learning "process" would be complete. There are so many examples within a days drive of simple, uncomplicated developments that created successful urban enclaves where there previously were none or in areas that had been considered "undesirable" areas. And before anyone says it, I know Oklahoma City is not to the level of those markets yet (these proposals prove it), but maybe that's in part because stuff like this keeps getting built.

BTW, I understand that this project is not final and that the developer will consider revisions and that the board did not approve it, but, honestly, the fact that it was presented at all is indicative of a bigger problem that I just thought was worthy of discussion.

Fantastic post and I couldn't agree more.

I don't agree with DOKC's and Chambers comments worried about saturation, I think as usual, they fail to acknowledge how far we are behind our peer cities, WE'RE PLAYING CATCHUP!! OKC has proven the build it and they will come prototype, and we have never built any developments on speculation. This market could support several more hotels in the downtown core, as well as in probably every sector of the metro. This stuff snowballs and development attracts more development hence attracts more people. Props to BUDC for at least trying to have some design standards, although they usually miss the mark of what they should be doing.

So the easement in question is not the abandoned railroad?

As far as the ODOT Drainage Easement that was referenced, correct. I believe this is probably a structure owned by the City of OKC, that was connected to new construction in the mid 80's to the structure that runs under I-40. It was a part of the I-235 interchange project. It's represented by the two lines that run through the parking lot that Steve has posted on his blog.

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/files/2013/02/sb3.jpg

Okay, so the boxes get moved and reconnected at the active railroad tracks and problem solved. Seems easy enough. Is this what drains into that inlet along I-35?

True. It's just that it seems it would only take a day trip to Austin, Denver, or even Ft. Worth and the learning "process" would be complete. There are so many examples within a days drive of simple, uncomplicated developments that created successful urban enclaves where there previously were none or in areas that had been considered "undesirable" areas. And before anyone says it, I know Oklahoma City is not to the level of those markets yet (these proposals prove it), but maybe that's in part because stuff like this keeps getting built.

BTW, I understand that this project is not final and that the developer will consider revisions and that the board did not approve it, but, honestly, the fact that it was presented at all is indicative of a bigger problem that I just thought was worthy of discussion.

Certainly don't disagree with anything you said. However, you are just seeing the final end product. Let me just say as a former Dallasite, some absolute stinkers were proposed before downtown/uptown Dallas hit critical mass. Fortunately they have a review board similar to ours (http://www.downtowndallas360.com/Content/10011/EnsureGreatDesign.html), and you definitely saw the quality of development slowly improve over time.

I would love the day when some of our local developers finally "get it" on there own, but you gotta start somewhere. For now we have a pretty good group of people that is going to prevent the sort of crap that was acceptable when DT/BT development was in its infancy.

I don't agree with DOKC's and Chambers comments worried about saturation, I think as usual, they fail to acknowledge how far we are behind our peer cities, WE'RE PLAYING CATCHUP!! OKC has proven the build it and they will come prototype, and we have never built any developments on speculation. This market could support several more hotels in the downtown core, as well as in probably every sector of the metro. This stuff snowballs and development attracts more development hence attracts more people. Props to BUDC for at least trying to have some design standards, although they usually miss the mark of what they should be doing.

This.

Hotel room revenue has increased almost 300% in the past 20 years, and I would still say will are probably a bit below the room count of a city our size. I think we can handle a few more rooms.

Okay, so the boxes get moved and reconnected at the active railroad tracks and problem solved. Seems easy enough. Is this what drains into that inlet along I-35?

It outlets on the south side of eastbound I-40 between the new Lincoln/ Byers bridge and SB I-235.

Okay, so the boxes get moved and reconnected at the active railroad tracks and problem solved. Seems easy enough. Is this what drains into that inlet along I-35?

There are two easements 1 drainage. 1odot

Certainly don't disagree with anything you said. However, you are just seeing the final end product. Let me just say as a former Dallasite, some absolute stinkers were proposed before downtown/uptown Dallas hit critical mass. Fortunately they have a review board similar to ours (http://www.downtowndallas360.com/Content/10011/EnsureGreatDesign.html), and you definitely saw the quality of development slowly improve over time.

I would love the day when some of our local developers finally "get it" on there own, but you gotta start somewhere. For now we have a pretty good group of people that is going to prevent the sort of crap that was acceptable when DT/BT development was in its infancy.

Definitely all true. I just don't want to see us pass the opportunity to start now. The bricktown area is really beginning to get a second chance to increase density and reach such a critical mass with the emergence of the east side as a redevelopment target. Lower bricktown failed to really enhance and complete the area. It added some nice features, but just introduced more barriers to quality development along the way. If the east side can start from day one with a comprehensive focus on extending the benefits of bricktown's core instead of simply cashing in on sub-par "turn 'em and burn 'em" developments that ignore opportunities to seamlessly integrate with the successful part of BT, we could see that critical mass achieved much quicker and do it without having to go through starting over in a new area every 10 years until we get it right like Dallas did.

The best part about being able to go to cities like Dallas that made mistakes along the way, is that we get to see both what worked and what didn't work. I don't understand why some feel we have to go through the multiple failures and extended time line when the hard lessons learned from lackluster developments and indifference surrounds us and is readily available. Do it right the first (or, in this case, the second time) and reaching that critical mass will happen much sooner.

There are two easements 1 drainage. 1odot

Where is this ODOT easement and what is its proposed use?

Can someone highlight the ODOT easement? That way we can try to come up with how they think they're going to be able to connect a ramp to 235.

WOW! The pessimism is unreal here. All of this about a building that hasn't even been approved and something that has been stated over and over, the developer is willing to change it and try to make it better. :/

We tried the "wait and see how it turns out" approach. That has never seemed to work out well for some of us, so excuse us if we don't stick with that approach.

Wow, this is the worst day ever. Wifey didn't like her V-Day gift, Thunder lose to Miami, and we get suburban development in Bricktown.

We tried the "wait and see how it turns out" approach. That has never seemed to work out well for some of us, so excuse us if we don't stick with that approach.Well, the Durant Restaurant seems like it turned out pretty good, from what it was. You're making it sound like griping about it on here is going to make a huge difference. Can you write the to developer? You have cad or 3dsmax... I can come up with something. I'm sure you could too. Send it in and see what they think. idk lol.... I just don't understand what all this bitching is about when they haven't even approved it yet, and I also think the design committee is getting stricter by the day.

Well, the Durant Restaurant seems like it turned out pretty good, from what it was. You're making it sound like griping about it on here is going to make a huge difference. Can you write the to developer? You have cad or 3dsmax... I can come up with something. I'm sure you could too. Send it in and see what they think. idk lol.... I just don't understand what all this bitching is about when they haven't even approved it yet, and I also think the design committee is getting stricter by the day.

Then I suggest you wait and see how it turns out. :)

Then I suggest you wait and see how it turns out. :)Well there nothing I really can do at this point lol.... I hope they change it though non the less. This is by far one of the worst developments I've seen in BT but, I doubt it will gain approval. For me, it's the waiting game.

For me, it's the waiting game.

Just remember, when you get tired of waiting OKCTalk will still be here to give you a voice.

This is all just SOP for OKCTALK. Never wait to criticize something when you can start now.

Well, the Durant Restaurant seems like it turned out pretty good, from what it was. You're making it sound like griping about it on here is going to make a huge difference. Can you write the to developer? You have cad or 3dsmax... I can come up with something. I'm sure you could too. Send it in and see what they think. idk lol.... I just don't understand what all this bitching is about when they haven't even approved it yet, and I also think the design committee is getting stricter by the day.

The Kevin Durant restaurant is extremely disappointing for such prime real estate.

Wow, this is the worst day ever. Wifey didn't like her V-Day gift, Thunder lose to Miami, and we get suburban development in Bricktown.

You didn't get her one of these (http://cdn.vermontteddybear.com/Images/ProductImages/BHL/bhl_largeImage_3_20130114.jpg) did you? lol

The Kevin Durant restaurant is extremely disappointing for such prime real estate.

Definitely.

I would say the KD restaraunt is almost as equivalent as a one story restarauntwould be, being built on the 'Cotton Exchange' plot.

The Kevin Durant restaurant is extremely disappointing for such prime real estate.

Agree 100%.

This is all just SOP for OKCTALK. Never wait to criticize something when you can start now.

When should we wait until? What is the optimal time to voice opposition?

And to be fair, there are lots of people on this site that are active in the community and have been involved in driving constructive change.

The Boulevard is a primary example but there are others as well.


I would also say that lots and lots of decision makers read this site and I guarantee the discussion gets heard and can even make an impact.

I know if I was a developer and was looking for community input as opposed to statistics of demographics and votes in a meeting - I would be all over this forum.

It's nice to know that what is discussed here, is actually taken into consideration in some aspects.

If your business, restaurant or development is based in OKC and you Google the name, this site is one of the first things you'll see listed. We employ an excellent Search Engine Optimizer (SEO) program which draws lots of people to us.

Also, while any Internet discussion tends to skew towards the critical -- it's the nature of the beast -- the talk here is pretty reasonable and respectful and if it isn't, the community of posters is pretty good about self-policing and balancing things out.

Therefore, I think for the most part the feedback here is taken seriously and I happen to know of many instances where that has been the case.

The Kevin Durant restaurant is extremely disappointing for such prime real estate.

This, we still have a LONG ways to go. Getting Randy Hogan to either go out to the suburbs or up his game is definitely one of the top to-do's.

If your business, restaurant or development is based in OKC and you Google the name, this site is one of the first things you'll see listed. We employ an excellent Search Engine Optimizer (SEO) program which draws lots of people to us.

Also, while any Internet discussion tends to skew towards the critical -- it's the nature of the beast -- the talk here is pretty reasonable and respectful and if it isn't, the community of posters is pretty good about self-policing and balancing things out.

Therefore, I think for the most part the feedback here is taken seriously and I happen to know of many instances where that has been the case.

Not to mention the TREMENDOUS ORGANIC SEO this site gets because of our depth of content that the faux news agencies of "record" simply don't deliver.

This, we still have a LONG ways to go. Getting Randy Hogan to either go out to the suburbs or up his game is definitely one of the top to-do's.

I agree completely. I just cannot stand the man or his work and I really wish he'd quit "developing" downtown because he's ruining perfectly good for parcels that could be saved for things far better than what he throws up.

I just don't understand what all this bitching is about when they haven't even approved it yet,

You do understand that input and criticism is WORTHLESS once it's approved, right? Now is the ONLY time to provide feedback. Maybe this is why it takes so long for some to show up at meetings and participate. They seem to think that it's best to wait for approvals to voice concern and that's completely backwards.

Yeah, what better way to receive the views of the general public that may care more about the looks of their city than those who are being paid cause they don't have to pay us. Honestly, I'm glad to help in any way without being paid. It'd make my day to know my opinion was used to shape different parts of our city!

Just remember, when you get tired of waiting OKCTalk will still be here to give you a voice.Well I voiced out, I just think that people are getting hyped up prematurely, that's all. :p

And to be fair, there are lots of people on this site that are active in the community and have been involved in driving constructive change.

The Boulevard is a primary example but there are others as well.


I would also say that lots and lots of decision makers read this site and I guarantee the discussion gets heard and can even make an impact.Oh, I understand that this site and the people make an enormous impact, no doubt. But, no one else thinks people are getting upset too soon? I don't know though, it could just be me :p

This is all just SOP for OKCTALK. Never wait to criticize something when you can start now.

As if OKC development doesn't need any critique whatsoever.

The Kevin Durant restaurant is extremely disappointing for such prime real estate.

I second that. Typical enter with mediocre, improve it to NW Expressway standards and voila - get what you wanted to build in the first place.

This is downtown, we should expect much better proposals than this stuff. I have no problem with this hotel and KD's restaurant being built where they belong in the suburbs. OKC still wins and downtown focus on being the urban center of Oklahoma that it should be!

BTW Just to clarify, I'm saying don't critique or ponder and express your opinions on why such a piece crap was proposed here, just seems like people are acting as if this has been approved and everything is going to go downhill. Just wanted to make that clear. :p I'll shut up about it now.

We know its not approved, which means we have the opportunity to present some changes before its down to the final minute. It's in everyone's best interest to communicate before things get to the last minute. See the boulevard, had we gotten involved earlier we could have had a more desirable outcome. Not to say the FBB movement didn't have a substantial positive impact -- which it did.

We know its not approved, which means we have the opportunity to present some changes before its down to the final minute. It's in everyone's best interest to communicate before things get to the last minute. See the boulevard, had we gotten involved earlier we could have had a more desirable outcome. Not to say the FBB movement didn't have a substantial positive impact -- which it did.*Like* lol... :)