I hope this doesn't get built, even if it was all brick it still sucks.....wow...more and more I am losing interest in downtown OKC development because of developers like this....

look at where the lot is ... next to an elevated interstate across the street from a gas station and an auto body shop ...

So it looks like they did not approve it...right I hope?

it was just an info presentation they will come back later for approval .. (and most likely with a different design) remember that is that point of them coming early to get feedback and to make changes before it is actually on the agenda

Plans Unveiled for Bricktown Staybridge Suites | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2013/02/13/plans-unveiled-for-bricktown-staybridge-suites/)

thanks for the story steve .. well done as usual

better look at the pics on steves blog Plans Unveiled for Bricktown Staybridge Suites | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2013/02/13/plans-unveiled-for-bricktown-staybridge-suites/)

On its face, the parking and building arrangement are directly agasint the Bricktown ordinance build-to and parking REGULATIONS, not even guidelines. They'd have to get at least two variances from the Board of Adjustment to build it this way. Not saying that couldn't happen - they'll argue about the ODOT ROW and the stormwater drainage issues. HOWEVER, I hope the BOA and others would consider that no one FORCED Patel to buy this land and try to build a hotel here...

My few cents for the day.

it was just an info presentation they will come back later for approval .. (and most likely with a different design) remember that is that point of them coming early to get feedback and to make changes before it is actually on the agenda

Which only means we have to stay vigilant to the 'Kevin Durant/Hogan smoke and mirrors' trick where they present a crappy design up front that is universally rejected, to then come back with a slightly less crappy design that wins a few approvals, and then the chorus of "you urbanist are against everything” starts - which then results in more crap getting built.

from looking at the lot on GIS this is a very strangely shaped lot (basically a triangle) on the southern end of reno and lincoln and that being the case i don't think any other site plan really works

from looking at the lot on GIS this is a very strangely shaped lot (basically a triangle) on the southern end of reno and lincoln and that being the case i don't think any other site plan really works

Put the building against Lincoln. Put the parking in the back against the railroad tracks.

Put the building against Lincoln. Put the parking in the back against the railroad tracks.

It is so simple it boggles the mind doesn't it.

So let me ask Steve. I know you are a professional and all but did you burst out laughing when they unveiled that site plan? They probably would have had to escort me from the building (if I didn’t leave on my own first).

No. To be fair, these guys are new to downtown development, and when everything was explained to them, they seemed eager to make changes that would better fit with Bricktown standards. They also showed great interest in improving the nearby streetscape. As for the site layout, they really have no choice but to do it angled due to the drainage easement and ODOT easement. I doubt there is anyone on this site, who, if they had the same situation, could come up with a better solution for the site.

..........no one FORCED Patel to buy this land and try to build a hotel here...

.

True. But if you'll recall, there was a certain broker in this town who wasn't quite upfront with him about the various issues with this site when he was convinced to buy it. Could better due diligence have been done? Maybe. It's an unfortunate situation. Cafe, is there a better way to do this footprint?

On its face, the parking and building arrangement are directly agasint the Bricktown ordinance build-to and parking REGULATIONS, not even guidelines. They'd have to get at least two variances from the Board of Adjustment to build it this way. Not saying that couldn't happen - they'll argue about the ODOT ROW and the stormwater drainage issues. HOWEVER, I hope the BOA and others would consider that no one FORCED Patel to buy this land and try to build a hotel here...

My few cents for the day.

to my knowledge that is not something they usually consider .. (although i think they should)

III. STATUTORY STANDARDS
In order for a variance to be granted in accordance with State Statute requirements, the
applicant must prove:
(a) The application of the Ordinance to the particular piece of property would create
an unnecessary hardship;
(b) Such conditions are peculiar to the particular piece of property involved;
(c) Relief, if granted, would not cause substantial detriment to the public good or
impair the purposes and intent of the Ordinance or Comprehensive Plan; and
(d) The variance, if granted, would be the minimum necessary to alleviate the
unnecessary hardship.

i think they would have a good case to get those two variances




Which only means we have to stay vigilant to the 'Kevin Durant/Hogan smoke and mirrors' trick where they present a crappy design up front that is universally rejected, to then come back with a slightly less crappy design that wins a few approvals, and then the chorus of "you urbanist are against everything” starts - which then results in more crap getting built.

remember this is BUD and that was not .. say what you wnat about the BUD but they do a good job of sticking to what they believe


Put the building against Lincoln. Put the parking in the back against the railroad tracks.

even without the easement issues i am not sure that would be possible on this site without changing the size/shape of the building

No. To be fair, these guys are new to downtown development, and when everything was explained to them, they seemed eager to make changes that would better fit with Bricktown standards. They also showed great interest in improving the nearby streetscape. As for the site layout, they really have no choice but to do it angled due to the drainage easement and ODOT easement. I doubt there is anyone on this site, who, if they had the same situation, could come up with a better solution for the site.

Do away with the easements - the railraod tracks are gone and they will never return and the drainage can be re-routed. It is done all the time. Hell, the convention center and new boulevard are closing entire roads. These barriers are just lines on a map - made by men - they aren't actual physical barriers on the ground.

No. To be fair, these guys are new to downtown development, and when everything was explained to them, they seemed eager to make changes that would better fit with Bricktown standards. They also showed great interest in improving the nearby streetscape. As for the site layout, they really have no choice but to do it angled due to the drainage easement and ODOT easement. I doubt there is anyone on this site, who, if they had the same situation, could come up with a better solution for the site.

i am glad that these presentations and now starting to happen well before the final submission for approval .. i'm sure most of the developers are happy to know what the BUD wants and are more than willing to work with them to find a design that everyone (or most everyone) is happy with

Do away with the easements - the railraod tracks are gone and they will never return and the drainage can be re-routed. It is done all the time. Hell, the convention center and new boulevard are closing entire roads.

those tracks are still used

The easements can't be changed. The tracks are still active. And ODOT wants to have the ability to build a new I-35 ramp at a future date.

The easements can't be changed. The tracks are still active. And ODOT wants to have the ability to build a new I-35 ramp at a future date.

And putting the building along Lincoln is impact by those two items how?

To clarify, I thought they were saying the 'railroad easement' are the two old abandoned ones that used to go across this lot that were taken out back in the late 90's. If you look on Lincoln you can still see where two abandoned lines were taken out.

How hard is it to do this?

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/hotel2_zps5c1a9955.jpg

I am sure you meant I-235, and I have been wanting a northbound onramp @ this location for forever. The amount of northbound ramps out of DT are a joke for I-235. It clogs deep deuce during rush hour and that is not right.

No. To be fair, these guys are new to downtown development, and when everything was explained to them, they seemed eager to make changes that would better fit with Bricktown standards. They also showed great interest in improving the nearby streetscape. As for the site layout, they really have no choice but to do it angled due to the drainage easement and ODOT easement. I doubt there is anyone on this site, who, if they had the same situation, could come up with a better solution for the site.

I am not too much concerned with the layout, but more with the design. If that is the only way they can situate hotel on that lot then fine, but the design can be better, way better. It is refreshing to know that the developers are open to consider a redesign.

And putting the building along Lincoln is impact by those two items how?

To clarify, I thought they were saying the 'railroad easement' are the two old abandoned ones that used to go across this lot that were taken out back in the late 90's. If you look on Lincoln you can still see where two abandoned lines were taken out.

How hard is it to do this?

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/hotel2_zps5c1a9955.jpg

Your layout has the hotel crossing the ODOT easement.

And putting the building along Lincoln is impact by those two items how?

To clarify, I thought they were saying the 'railroad easement' are the two old abandoned ones that used to go across this lot that were taken out back in the late 90's. If you look on Lincoln you can still see where two abandoned lines were taken out.

How hard is it to do this?

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/hotel2_zps5c1a9955.jpg


so you want the back of the hotel to face lincoln? not to mention changing the size/shape of the hotel ..


I am sure you meant I-235, and I have been wanting a northbound onramp @ this location for forever. The amount of northbound ramps out of DT are a joke for I-235. It clogs deep deuce during rush hour and that is not right.

the new BLVD will help with this

the new BLVD will help with this

How? I remember the boulevard being planned to run to I-40. And an off ramp from I-235 to get onto the BLVD.

If you are meaning go all the way down there to take the I-40 ramp onto I-235, then I hope you're joking.

First off - let's get real. ODOT is never going to put an on-ramp here. That would be 3 ramps in less than 1/2 mile. They simply are NOT EVER going to do that. If they didn't do it for dontown they sure as hell aren't going to do it for this area. Second, no the back of the hotel would not face Lincoln. I would like to say I am shocked that would even enter someone's mind - but heck, now-a-days you just never know.

How? I remember the boulevard being planned to run to I-40. And an off ramp from I-235 to get onto the BLVD.

If you are meaning go all the way down there to take the I-40 ramp onto I-235, then I hope you're joking.

from say the CHK arena ... lots of people that want to go north will get on the BLVD then on I40 and then north on I235 ..

First off - let's get real. ODOT is never going to put an on-ramp here. That would be 3 ramps in less than 1/2 mile. They simply are NOT EVER going to do that. If they didn't do it for dontown they sure as hell aren't going to do it for this area. Second, no the back of the hotel would not face Lincoln. I would like to say I am shocked that would even enter someone's mind - but heck, now-a-days you just never know.

and whether they are ever going to build a ramp or not the easement exists and its not like they are going to give it away

So where does this easement actually exist.

Wow. If this does get built, it would be a major setback to development in the area. The standards have slowly been raised the last few years and this would completely destroy that. I am just so confused as to why developers in this area still have to have their hands slapped when they present their first concepts (that is, if our review committees have the guts to do it). What is it about Oklahoma City that still fails to motivate developers to at least try to not insult an area with their concepts? You would think at some point they'd start presenting first designs that only required modifications on details instead of showing concepts like this that should be totally scrapped.

Basically, this corner of downtown is a blank slate and this project will define what it will become. Start with this and it will end up more as western expansion of Del City than an eastern expansion of bricktown.

Wow. If this does get built, it would be a major setback to development in the area. The standards have slowly been raised the last few years and this would completely destroy that. I am just so confused as to why developers in this area still have to have their hands slapped when they present their first concepts (that is, if our review committees have the guts to do it). What is it about Oklahoma City that still fails to motivate developers to at least try to not insult an area with their concepts? You would think at some point they'd start presenting first designs that only required modifications on details instead of showing concepts like this that should be totally scrapped.

Basically, this corner of downtown is a blank slate and this project will define what it will become. Start with this and it will end up more as western expansion of Del City than an eastern expansion of bricktown.

what the "area" has an interstate a gas station and an auto body shop

Curious BoulderSooner, why is your threshold for accepting mediocrity so low? This isn’t a knock again you personally but your ‘attitude’ is pretty prevalent around OKC (especially in the people who build the physical environment), so as a representative member of this mindset that I have direct access to I have to ask. If Rover is reading this maybe he can chime in as well.

Is there anything you have ever seen proposed and you say, that just isn't acceptable - we can do better?

what the "area" has an interstate a gas station and an auto body shop

Thanks for proving my point. Crap begets crap. The only way to change it is to stop settling for crap.

Funny how so many cities have been able to take their crappiest urban areas and turn them into treasures. We've even been able to do that to some extent, but then people just shrug at stuff like this. I think the article about Tulsa's downtown successful developments being a result of civic pride were correct and we continue to take on projects that only highlight our lack of pride in our city's developments. Seems that the developers can sense this and know that, for the most part, we'll take any kind of junk we can get and just cross our fingers that real improvements will happen somewhere else at some other time...

The developers sense acceptance of crap due to the track record of what has been allowed in the past.

Many times these properties are developed then flipped to other investors and all they care about is cash flow.

Curious BoulderSooner, why is your threshold for accepting mediocrity so low? This isn’t a knock again you personally but your ‘attitude’ is pretty prevalent around OKC (especially in the people who build the physical environment), so as a representative member of this mindset that I have direct access to I have to ask. If Rover is reading this maybe he can chime in as well.

Is there anything you have ever seen proposed and you say, that just isn't acceptable - we can do better?

the building design will improve and will most likely be all or almost all brick the site plan doesn't really bother me .. it is what it is ... but i wouldn't call it "mediocre"

this location is not close to anything else in bricktown

...
this location is not close to anything else in bricktown



...yet

The developers sense acceptance of crap due to the track record of what has been allowed in the past.

Yep. And it won't change until they stop allowing it, obviously.


this location is not close to anything else in bricktown

Where do you think it is? It's less than half a mile from the ballpark which is less than a 10 minute walk...

In the future the body shop and gas station might not be there. This is a major setback to development. Build this on the east side of 235.

the building design will improve and will most likely be all or almost all brick the site plan doesn't really bother me .. it is what it is ... but i wouldn't call it "mediocre"

this location is not close to anything else in bricktown

So the arrangement of the physical world holds no inherant value to you? Just, here is a hotel that generates X dollars per year (number of rooms X rate X occupancy percent) and how it is arranged on the ground has no ability to enhance or hinder its income potential, or that of adjacent properties?

So the arrangement of the physical world holds no inherant value to you? Just, here is a hotel that generates X dollars per year (number of rooms X rate X occupancy percent) and how it is arranged on the ground has no ability to enhance or hinder its income potential, or that of adjacent properties?

sure it does in general ... just not so much with this site ..

Wow everyone seems to be jumping off the cliff a bit early with this. I agree it looks terrible but nothing has been approved yet correct? Has the design committee already instructed them to go redesign this?

I think the main problem is a lot of developers here are locally based and just very new to downtown development. If they are at least open to changes and the design review committee can stay firm and consistent in its requests I can cut them a break, for now anyway.

It is true almost all development is coming from locals.

Because we've had so little quality urban development in the past, those who only know OKC lack perspective and experience.

That's where these design review committees come in, I just wish they would be tougher. Especially when we have a glut of hotel projects, it's a good time to be more selective and strict.

Especially when we have a glut of hotel projects, it's a good time to be more selective and strict.

Exactly- Bricktown can afford to deny any hotel project that isn't meeting or even exceeding standards. There are 1,000 other hotel rooms in the pipeline and this is just a cheap interstate motel. With uncertainty about the hotel market in Bricktown, if a project doesn't make the committee say "Wow, that would be a great addition to the area and we want to see that built" then why bother approving it? Hotel developers shouldn't be able to free-ride off Bricktown's popularity without ponying up to Bricktown's standards.

This is a lot like the Bricktown McDonald's situation, where the committee was able to say "We have a lot of restaurants here, we don't really need a McDonald's, so unless your design makes us want a McDonald's we're going to deny this."

Ironic that this developer referenced McDonald's with his proposal. Because I get the sense that this may be the most scrutinized project since the Bricktown McD's.

How about everyone on OKCTalk quits their jobs and pools money together to form an LLC and together we will pave the way for a better OKC.

We obviously have the vision.

Exactly- Bricktown can afford to deny any hotel project that isn't meeting or even exceeding standards. There are 1,000 other hotel rooms in the pipeline and this is just a cheap interstate motel. With uncertainty about the hotel market in Bricktown, if a project doesn't make the committee say "Wow, that would be a great addition to the area and we want to see that built" then why bother approving it? Hotel developers shouldn't be able to free-ride off Bricktown's popularity without ponying up to Bricktown's standards.

This is a lot like the Bricktown McDonald's situation, where the committee was able to say "We have a lot of restaurants here, we don't really need a McDonald's, so unless your design makes us want a McDonald's we're going to deny this."

they don't have to wow the board or exceed the standards .. they have to meet the standards ..

For what it's worth....
I met with Patel. I listened to him in the meeting. I did not sense in him the same stubborn insistence on moving forward with the "prototype" design after he heard the feedback from the committee. He seemed eager to make changes, to figure out what he needed to do to make it a better fit. I also showed him the photo of the Columbus, S.C. Staybridge shown on this site (I pulled it up on the screen of my laptop after the meeting). He loved it. So again, for what it's worth...

How does this (red) occupy any more or different ROW than the proposal (white)?

http://gyazo.com/f559f9aa437a26e6e61820df471e387b.png?1360865524

For what it's worth....
I met with Patel. I listened to him in the meeting. I did not sense in him the same stubborn insistence on moving forward with the "prototype" design after he heard the feedback from the committee. He seemed eager to make changes, to figure out what he needed to do to make it a better fit. I also showed him the photo of the Columbus, S.C. Staybridge shown on this site (I pulled it up on the screen of my laptop after the meeting). He loved it. So again, for what it's worth...

thanks steve that is good to hear

Did you by chance show him the Holiday Inn Express or Springhill Suites just down the street from that Staybridge? BTW - it is Columbia, SC.

Thanks Steve.

Let's hope a good compromise can be struck here.

Quality and profitability don't have to be mutually exclusive concepts.

Just the Facts, the ODOT easement, as I understand it, is marked by the slightly visible pathway that cuts diagonally across the corner just north of the billboard, and starts directly across from the entrance to the gas station.

Just the Facts, the ODOT easement, as I understand it, is marked by the slightly visible pathway that cuts diagonally across the corner just north of the billboard, and starts directly across from the entrance to the gas station.

Yes - that is the abandoned railroad right of way. If you go to Google Earth and change the imagery back to Februrary 1995 you can see the railroad cut across this lot, go through where the gas station pumps are now, cross Reno, pass through the Sonic headquarters building, and service whatever business was located where the Harkin Theater now sits. Now some how the gas staton, the City, Randy Hogan, and who knows how many other people were able to build on this easement.

Easements can be abandoned... Happens all the time.

However, it takes and time and legal fees to make it happen and perhaps the developer doesn't want to go through the trouble.

Yes. But keep in mind; ODOT DOESN'T want to abandon this easement. They are reserving it for future construction of a new ramp.

WHat the heck kind of ramp would be contrsucted from that stretch of land? I thought the ramp would be on the deadend portion of Sheridan on the other side of the Interstate, for an on-ramp.

Yes. But keep in mind; ODOT DOESN'T want to abandon this easement. They are reserving it for future construction of a new ramp.

Well that is going to be one hell of a right turn getting on the interstate then and not to mention a huge inconvenience of doing it right in the middle of the parking lot of the hotel.

I have the same question as Anonymous. What in the hell kind of ramp is ODOT considering on this particular easement? I'm very confused on what they could build there because it certainly doesn't seem to work for an off or on ramp...

I have the same question as Anonymous. What in the hell kind of ramp is ODOT considering on this particular easement? I'm very confused on what they could build there because it certainly doesn't seem to work for an off or on ramp...

Besides, what would you enter onto - the exit ramp for I-40 west? You can't get on I-235 south from there. The truth is - this is a made up excuse. They need to go sale crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

Besides, what you enter onto - the exit ramp for I-40 west? You can't get on I-235 south from there. The truth is - this is a made up excuse. They need to go sale crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

they being ODOT? the fact remains that they have the easement and they want to keep it

Guys, they're calling it a ramp, but it could just as easily be some sort of new fly connection. Whatever it is, ODOT doesn't want to give up that land.

When was the last time ODOT was asked?

I talked to ODOT about this in 2008. The developer and planning staff indicate they've been given the same info as the project was restarted.