Since I will likely never be inside of an Anthropologie store I have to ask. Are they really that barren looking on the inside? It appears that they have almost no merchandise.

The windows are somewhat understated, as they like their artwork to be the primary focus, but the stores are loaded with varied merchandise. I always miss at least a third of the items when I go in, it seems, no matter how much time I spend in there.

The windows are somewhat understated, as they like their artwork to be the primary focus, but the stores are loaded with varied merchandise. I always miss at least a third of the items when I go in, it seems, no matter how much time I spend in there.


Actually I wasn't referring to the windows. Specifically the pictures of the Tulsa store shown earlier make the interior look very empty.

I've never been to the Tulsa store. But, I've never been in an Anthropologie I thought looked empty. They have a visual manager for each store, and attempt to decorate the interior at the same time that they display merchandise. I wouldn't call them cluttered, however. The last time I checked, the Tulsa store was doing very well for a store of its size, though. As has the OKC store.

Agree, the pics posted show a very sparsely stocked, wide open spaces store...the merchandise easily condensed into a store a fourth of the size. Also the earlier comment about Tulsa having 3 levels seemed odd as the exterior looks like a single story store. But went back and looked, and sure enough there are flights of stairs, so technically on different levels. But I was reading levels=story/floors

Better stores don't usually just stack merchandise up. Their display and merchandise spread is usually more sophisticated. Compared to a lower priced merchandise store where they need to create great amounts of sales of cheaper merchandise it will look more sparse. These guys have a pretty successful formula.

Better stores don't usually just stack merchandise up. Their display and merchandise spread is usually more sophisticated. Compared to a lower priced merchandise store where they need to create great amounts of sales of cheaper merchandise it will look more sparse. These guys have a pretty successful formula.


I certainly understand that, but the Tulsa store looks like they could taxi a 747 down the aisles and not hit anything. I've been in Neiman Marcus and some very upscale stores on Rodeo Drive and in New York City and they don't look like that.

Rent on Rodeo and in NYC are significantly higher, therefore a bit more utilization of space is necessary on a price per sf basis. From looking in the few visible windows the one in The Domain in Austin was "sparse" in comparison to those high dollar urban type of stores.

Well merchandising is very much out of my areas of expertise so I'll just have to assume they know what they're doing. It was just a casual observation.

It's a little surprising that Classen Curve doesn't have any type of drinking estabishment besides Republic, which is primarily a restaurant, not a bar. Wouldn't a pub, martini bar, or jazz club help to bring foot traffic on a regular basis. Just an idea since the place appears like it will be sitting half vacant for the near future.

Interestingly, I was at Classen Curve on Saturday to pick up some cupcakes at Green Goodies and I noticed something. The entire parking lot was full of cars. Obviously people are eating and shopping there. I've heard rumors that Starbucks is moving out of the Plaza, but the person telling me that wasn't sure if they were moving to the Curve or the Triangle. I also heard Red Coyote is expanding and miving to a different space there. These are just rumors. But traffic is definitely picking up.

A wine bar seems like it would be a definite home run at CC

Does CC really need any more bars and restaurants anyways?

Does CC really need any more bars and restaurants anyways?

Restaurants? No. A nice wine bar? Yes

It's a little surprising that Classen Curve doesn't have any type of drinking estabishment besides Republic, which is primarily a restaurant, not a bar. Wouldn't a pub, martini bar, or jazz club help to bring foot traffic on a regular basis. Just an idea since the place appears like it will be sitting half vacant for the near future.

My fear with a popular pub at the CC would be that the parking lot would be dominated with those patrons. As pointed out by another poster, often times the parking areas already appear pretty full and the place is still pretty void of tenants. Sort of like what has happened at Plaza Court. McNellie's patrons dominate the parking lot from early evening on. I know it effects Subway, Irma's and even the YMCA. I love McNellie's, but an unfortunate consequence can be that it causes concern for other businesses. My wife and I looked to put in a nicer liquor store in at Plaza Court but decided against it when we were told we could not reserve any spaces directly in front of the business.

What? Parking in OKC an issue? Say it isn't so (and many will)
:sofa:

Red Coyote II is taking 5,400 of new space in Classen Curve.

$250K building permit today.

construction fence up around 58th street with the street already removed

i wonder if they are just "cleaning up the site" or if they are moving forward with the curve expansion

I noticed this last night while visiting Upper Crust. Hopefully they're moving forward with the curve expansion. I think something on that south side could help bring a bit more balance to the strip mall.

Have not seen any building permits as of yet.

Classen Curve is adding parking along 58th.

Were there not plans to expand in that area at one point?

Were there not plans to expand in that area at one point?

Yes, they were going to add a couple of small retail buildings there, but now it sounds like it will just be parking.

What a bummer. Though the new buildings probably would have had trouble leasing anyhow.

Here is what was originally proposed and approved:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/classencurve101111.jpg

According to somebody in Steve's chat, many Classen Curve tenants are struggling and will likely be relocating elsewhere. Can anybody confirm this? As underwhelming as Classen Curve is its still one of the better developments in the metro and I would hate to see it die. Thoughts?

I know of several tenants regretting the move considerably. I've talked to them personally. For their privacy, I wont divulge who.

what makes the location undesirable and a struggle? I thought this was supposed to become a showplace of high end elegance.

Foot traffic. I'm sure Red Coyote and Tuckers/Republic do well, because of their brand awareness and advertising, but some of the smaller retail shops came from more established retail centers with higher average daily foot traffic, and built up business over "x" years. As they say location location location. Not every business benefits from the same location equally. That and the big bust that was Chesapeake Land Development efforts.

I know of several tenants regretting the move considerably. I've talked to them personally. For their privacy, I wont divulge who.

Do you think we will be looking at a dead shopping center in a few years? Do you think it will eventually be a viable center or is the concept just too flawed?

Hard to say, like with any retail, I think we'll see turnover and new tenants, but without reasonable rates, and foot traffic, I can't see it doing much more of anything other than status quo. Couple that with Chesapeake performance and future on the fence, and it's a risky bet.

How are the restaurants doing in the center? Classen Curve is one of the few places that has the type of "trendy casual" establishments that are so lacking in OKC but abundant in other cities. I would hope at least they are doing well.

bchris, like I said, my understanding and observation is the restaurants are fine, the upscale retail is just lacking in constant foot traffic compared to say the foot traffic they might see if they were in Penn Sq. Keep in mind they're higher end shops, so have a smaller market segment that can afford to shop there too.

From an urban design perspective, it's a horrible layout. Keep the architecture but make the pedestrian paths better, and I bet you'd see the retail more established. I don't mind walking Republic to Green Goodies, but it's an absolute pain to walk the entire development.

From an urban design perspective, it's a horrible layout. Keep the architecture but make the pedestrian paths better, and I bet you'd see the retail more established. I don't mind walking Republic to Green Goodies, but it's an absolute pain to walk the entire development.

it would really help if they built the other two planned building .. sadly i don't think that will ever happen

Do you think we will be looking at a dead shopping center in a few years? Do you think it will eventually be a viable center or is the concept just too flawed?

It was alive?

From an urban design perspective, it's a horrible layout. Keep the architecture but make the pedestrian paths better, and I bet you'd see the retail more established. I don't mind walking Republic to Green Goodies, but it's an absolute pain to walk the entire development.

I think you're actually being a bit too kind.

Mom and pops/independent stores for the most part will have struggles in nice, high rent centers. Its just the nature of the beast. My guess is they were given many concessions early on, or a bunch of tenant improvement money and now when they have to pay the expensive rent, and the sales just arent there.

Its kind of sad, because if a real estate professional would have been in charge, it could have been much more successful. There are numerous national retailers that would like to be in OKC, given the right kind of development. And classen curves goofy layout and shallow store depths, it was never going to attract those retailers.

If they do build the other building(s) it could help, that is if they could land a reputable retailer.

Mom and pops/independent stores for the most part will have struggles in nice, high rent centers. Its just the nature of the beast. My guess is they were given many concessions early on, or a bunch of tenant improvement money and now when they have to pay the expensive rent, and the sales just arent there.

Its kind of sad, because if a real estate professional would have been in charge, it could have been much more successful. There are numerous national retailers that would like to be in OKC, given the right kind of development. And classen curves goofy layout and shallow store depths, it was never going to attract those retailers.

If they do build the other building(s) it could help, that is if they could land a reputable retailer.

Chesapeake will sell that center sooner or later. When that happens I think you will see a little better performance as far as leasing activity is concerned.

The demographics/traffic in that area are too good for Classen Curve to just languish. It just needs the right people in charge of it and CHK with all of their issues are not it.

While I usually love Rand Elliot's designs, I think he missed on this. While a lot of glass on the front is good, there is no depth for un-displayed inventory, prep, offices, etc. For retail, it is a very poor design. And, as has been pointed out, the layout being what it is doesn't invite walking from one to the other. With few synergistic stores and lots of gaps, people just don't go strolling. Parking is such that you can park immediately in front of anywhere you are going, so that doesn't help the foot traffic either. Consequently it doesn't feel full of life, and with the stark contemporary style and dark color, it doesn't invite. It isn't either intimate or grand...just something in between.

This would be a difficult re-purposing as well.

If this were to sell, I think the second owner could price the rental much better. This wasn't expensive construction technique or material, so it was Aubrey's overpaying for the land that makes it expensive. It would be sold at a much more reasonable market price and may make leasing much easier.

A retail building needs to deliver customers to the tenants, and this one doesn't. The building faces in not out, it is built with long runs instead of a cluster, it is visually cold and stark, parking is tight due to an abundance of restaurants, and there are no adjacent neighborhoods or employment generators encouraging people to walk or ride a bike without having to cross busy streets (Grand & Classen). The restaurants, Red Coyote and perhaps On A Whim are destination businesses - people will go no matter where they are - but the others need foot traffic that isn't coming.

Any word on a tenant for the never-finished space next to Anthropologie?

A retail building needs to deliver customers to the tenants, and this one doesn't. The building faces in not out, it is built with long runs instead of a cluster, it is visually cold and stark, parking is tight due to an abundance of restaurants, and there are no adjacent neighborhoods or employment generators encouraging people to walk or ride a bike without having to cross busy streets (Grand & Classen). The restaurants, Red Coyote and perhaps On A Whim are destination businesses - people will go no matter where they are - but the others need foot traffic that isn't coming.

Any word on a tenant for the never-finished space next to Anthropologie?

what retail center in Oklahoma City has neighborhoods or employment centers that provide shoppers via walking??

what retail center in Oklahoma City has neighborhoods or employment centers that provide shoppers via walking??

Lol, that's the point...

This wasn't expensive construction technique or material

Compared to what?

Compared to more expensive construction. These were simple shells and common materials. Tenant fit out separate from construction. These are basic shells.

what retail center in Oklahoma City has neighborhoods or employment centers that provide shoppers via walking??

I'll be more specific to say "district" instead of "center," and a partial list includes Midtown, Plaza District, Automobile Alley, Deep Deuce, Nichols Hills Plaza, Western District...

The real question is what will happen when Chesapeake stops subsidizing the tenants at Classen Curve.

I'm sure that has already happened and for that reason the remainder of the space is going to be very difficult to lease. At the same time, all the current tenants will eventually have to renew their leases and you can bet that the new landlords -- those now in control at CHK or someone they may sell to -- will view CC as a business and not some sort of amenity for Chesapeake employees.

My money is on Green Goodies being the next tenant to vacate.

Pete - were most leases likely on a 36 month term? Do you have a list of occupancy/commencement dates?

Pete - were most leases likely on a 36 month term? Do you have a list of occupancy/commencement dates?

Surely 5 years Id think. Although I suppose they could just be guaranteed for only 3.

All this just makes me think of what a wasted opportunity Classen Curve was. I have no idea why it couldn't have been designed like a lifestyle center rather than a strip mall. That would have made all the difference. Also, getting a major retailer to anchor it would have been a good idea.

I've thought all along that it would have been far, far better to have not built Classen Curve at all.

It was a residential neighborhood that could have been left in tact, while the money, resources and tenants could have been directed to NH Plaza.

Now we have two half-empty shopping centers and a bunch of empty lots between them.

Pete - were most leases likely on a 36 month term? Do you have a list of occupancy/commencement dates?

I honestly don't know.

However, I have heard that all the tenants there were given substantial incentives in the form of build-out allowances, reduced / free rent, and relocation expenses.

And at least in the case of Baliet's, AKM actually invested in the company itself. Given his relationship with Pops and the Deep Fork Grill (and restaurant group) I wouldn't be surprised if he has some level of participation in some of the restaurants there.

I also know that Whole Foods was given massive incentives; you can bet Anthropolgie was as well.

I've thought all along that it would have been far, far better to have not built Classen Curve at all.

It was a residential neighborhood that could have been left in tact, while the money, resources and tenants could have been directed to NH Plaza.

Now we have two half-empty shopping centers and a bunch of empty lots between them.

This would have been the way to go. Redo NH Plaza, build that out, up, whatever the hell you wanted, but Classen Curve was a mistake.

I am not sure why all the talk about CC being so empty. Yes, there are open spots, but it is far from empty. The whole north side of the shopping center is full. I think the only building that is completely empty is the one across from the new Red Coyote location. There is a space open next to Tucker's. Lululemon will go in next to Liberte. And that is about it. I understand the complaint about the design.

What I wished they would have done is take out the two entrances to the center from Classen on the west facing the graveyard and put two more buildings facing each other. That way, you would have to enter the shopping center from the south by the shave shop or by Republic to the north and there would be uninterupted shopping for at least two city blocks.

This would have been the way to go. Redo NH Plaza, build that out, up, whatever the hell you wanted, but Classen Curve was a mistake.

They actually moved several tenants from NH Plaza to CC, and provided incentives for them to shift.

And of course, they basically ran out Crescent Market and NH Drug in favor of Whole Foods. In retrospect, they could have found a way to work WF into NH Plaza and concentrate on making that great before running off in 10 directions all at the same time.


The entire plan had me nervous from the outset and I'm somewhere between angry and relieved that it didn't turn into a complete disaster, which it certainly would have if AKM had been forced out before Classen Curve was at least somewhat finished.

Somewhere in this thread are a whole bunch of "I told you so's" from the usual suspects.

I've thought all along that it would have been far, far better to have not built Classen Curve at all.

It was a residential neighborhood that could have been left in tact, while the money, resources and tenants could have been directed to NH Plaza.

Now we have two half-empty shopping centers and a bunch of empty lots between them.

Could not agree more. It's particularly appalling when we learn the developers and architect were trying to create OKC's "Utica Square" or our version of the Plaza in KCMO. What a sad facsimile of either of those shopping destinations.

They actually moved several tenants from NH Plaza to CC, and provided incentives for them to shift.

And of course, they basically ran out Crescent Market and NH Drug in favor of Whole Foods. In retrospect, they could have found a way to work WF into NH Plaza and concentrate on making that great before running off in 10 directions all at the same time.


The entire plan had me nervous from the outset and I'm somewhere between angry and relieved that it didn't turn into a complete disaster, which it certainly would have if AKM had been forced out before Classen Curve was at least somewhat finished.

Still have no idea why they ran out Nichols Hills Drug. Makes me angry! That didn't compete with Whole Foods. WTF?

They actually moved several tenants from NH Plaza to CC, and provided incentives for them to shift.

And of course, CHK basically ran off Crescent Market and NH Drug in favor of Whole Foods. In retrospect, they could have found a way to work WF into NH Plaza and concentrate on making that great before running off in 10 directions all at the same time.


The entire plan had me nervous from the outset and I'm somewhere between angry and relieved that it didn't turn into a complete disaster, which it certainly would have if AKM had been forced out before Classen Curve was at least somewhat finished.

JTF - I think we finally have the advantage of hindsight to affirm our suspicions that CC didn't make economic sense. Worse, when you rob tenants from a nearby retail property it damages them both.

Looking at how subsidies were liberally offered, it is now clear to me that they were given to Crescent Market until it (CM) became an obstacle to landing Whole Foods, at which time the subsidies were essentially redirected from Crescent to WF. It was understood that Crescent wouldn't survive without subsidies. The right decision would have been to replace Crescent with WF and not develop the Triangle until a later date, if at all.

I think that Aubrey was obsessed with landing previously-uncatchable national credit tenants by giving them whatever they wanted, even if it didn't make economic sense.