I would actually say no: the point is keeping the team, and the legal theory is about the lease. They don't stand to make any super-great amount of money off specific performance of the lease, and they've been OFFERED that money already.

The point i'm making is: a seemingly large marjority of citizens don't WANT the team for two more years. Seattle's leadership could have accepted a settlement offer earlier that would have paid all the debt on KeyArena and then some. They didn't accept it and are now using public funds to fight an expensive lawsuit that, at best, gives them two more seasons with a team that is losing tons of money, pisses off the NBA, KeyArena still in debt and not serviceable on a going-forward basis, that the citizens don't even seem to want, ALL IN HOPES that Clay will sell or be forced to sell...so as to please a minority of the population?

Does that sound like worthwhile civic expenditures? At least our expenditures make for economic investment if we get the team. They just have a short-lived 2 seasons with the Sonics if they win, and given that they COULD have KeyArena's debt paid off, they might actually be in a significantly worse position than if they settled or even win.You may be absolutly right. And like you, I'm kind of sick of it myself. And it will end, one way or another, at some point in time.

Most likely where you and I will defer is that, if they (the Sonics) get here fine. But if they don't, then I'm fine with that also. I can only speculate that the Citys determination on wether or not the use of public funds would be a worthwhile civic expenditure was made after they weighed all of their options. If that is correct, then I would assume they concluded that the rewards far out weighed the risk. Anyway, the cost to the Citizens of Seattle associated with this lawsuit will have little if any impact on the City's Budget. So what the hell, they went for it.

Here's a condensed version of a story in this mornings P-I. The full story is here......Sonics tried to limit interest in team in Seattle, city says (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365719_trial04.html)


Sonics tried to limit interest in team in Seattle, city says
By GREG JOHNS
P-I REPORTER

By limiting exposure of its players and denying media access through radio interviews, the Sonics have intentionally tried to minimize public interest in their team in Seattle over the past year, according to a motion filed Tuesday seeking to allow testimony of KJR-AM radio personality Mitch Levy.

In the city of Seattle's response to the Sonics' motion to exclude Levy and The Stranger writer Sherman Alexie from the witness list for the upcoming trial to determine the franchise's fate at KeyArena, attorney Michelle Jensen outlined numerous reasons the two media members should be allowed to appear.

Levy would be asked by the city's lawyers to explain how Clay Bennett's Professional Basketball Club has undercut its own marketing efforts in Seattle by severely limiting player and coaches interviews on KJR-AM sports radio, thereby "adding to its self-inflicted financial wounds."

Alexie, an award-winning writer as well as a 10-year Sonics season-ticket holder, would be asked to testify to the "intangible benefits" the team provides Seattle, in contrast to the "near-zero" cultural value once professed by City Councilman Nick Licata.

U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman will rule on that motion and others in a pretrial conference Friday. The six-day trial is scheduled to open June 16.

The Sonics filed several motions Tuesday, too, asking Pechman to allow a survey showing the Sonics rank third in popularity behind the Seahawks and Mariners among Seattle sports fans; as well as evidence regarding the PBC's efforts to find a new arena in the region.

Both matters go to the "heart of why this matter is in litigation," according to the team's attorneys, noting that the city has conceded KeyArena is inadequate for an NBA team and the PBC was unable to obtain a successor venue in a city that previously had funded new facilities for pro baseball and football.

"Now, on the eve of trial, and after forcing taxpayers, the PBC and several third parties to collectively spend several hundred thousand dollars conducting discovery on these issues, the City claims that whether the PBC acted in good faith is not relevant," the Sonics motion states.

Additionally, the team is asking Pechman to include evidence showing the "dysfunction" between the city and owners that would make any specific-performance ruling difficult to carry out

It's laughable because of the remedy it seeks, and that its most damning statement in the complaint is half a sentence.

You may be absolutly right. And like you, I'm kind of sick of it myself. And it will end, one way or another, at some point in time.

Most likely where you and I will defer is that, if they (the Sonics) get here fine. But if they don't, then I'm fine with that also. I can only speculate that the Citys determination on wether or not the use of public funds would be a worthwhile civic expenditure was made after they weighed all of their options. If that is correct, then I would assume they concluded that the rewards far out weighed the risk. Anyway, the cost to the Citizens of Seattle associated with this lawsuit will have little if any impact on the City's Budget. So what the hell, they went for it.

That is where we differ...I know I'll wake up the next day if we end up without the Sonics, and OKC will be better off with the sales tax anyway with the new Ford Center...but I will be really, really disappointed.

Let's look at this from the Seattle fan's point of view. Out of town owner buys team, issues threats to move unless $400M publicly financed arena is built in a blighted part of Puget Sound, trades best two players, cuts ties with local media, owner publicly admits they never intended to keep the team in Seattle, limits player appearances and concludes his ownership with the worst Sonics record in 41 seasons. Somewhat strange, that after all of this...the PBC took the time to poll Seattle citizens on how much they value the Sonics. My guess is that PBC conducted no such poll before the acquisition.

Nice post, but shortened because you seem to go on and on about the ill feelings you have for the PBC. Let's look at it like this -- city leases a car factory to a car manufacturer. Said manufacturer provides thousands of jobs and has a huge economic impact. Manufacturer then is acquired by another company who seeks to consolidate. As part of the consolidation plan, the manufacturer wants to move the operations of this leased plant to Mexico. The city sues to stop the company from doing this citing 'economic impact' and demanding specific performance of the lease.

What, exactly, do you think would happen here?

-- I'll tell you.

The only issue here is cash. With suits in equity, when cash is all that's at issue, there is no equitable remedy (e.g., specific performance) granted. With every single business contract, lease or what have you we have, especially when it is the government acting as the landlord, the performance of the lease is a public benefit and there is always an economic impact. Those things, however, are too amorphous to demand equitable remedies. If this were the case, just about every lease would be subject to specific performance demands upon the ground that the lease provides an irreplaceable economic impact which cannot be replaced by cash damages.

That is why all of this 'hurt feelings' stuff is so important. Seattle's likely best argument, and one which has worked before in a different jurisdiction (I could get a cite, but you probably wouldn't know what to do with it, so just recall the Minnesota Twins situation) is that the team provides an irreplaceable sense of pride to the community and that the public benefit here is not necessarily economic but emotional -- something which absolutely can't be compensated for with cash damages.

The good faith issues come into play because in order to seek an equitable remedy (which specific performance is), a party must have clean hands. In other words, if the City has, itself, interfered with the lease, conspired against the PBC with third parties to devalue the team and force a sale, etc., even though an equitable remedy may be in order, the city would lack clean hands and thus would receive no equitable remedy.


Second point, the Schultz suit and the "clean hands doctrine." You mention the case is laughable and most believe it barely has legs. I would be interested as to why you believe its laughable specifically as to the sales agreement and side letter between PBC and Schultz.

Try the actual language of the sales agreement stating that the sales agreement encompasses the entire sales agreement. Try the fact that no one but Schultz even really should have standing to sue? There are too many issues to list here. Fortunately, I don't have to. Our own Doug Loudenback has spent considerable time and energy combing through the relevant paperwork.

Doug Dawgz Blog: April 2008 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html)

You can find his work above. I recommend you read it. Apparently you don't have a firm grasp on the legal or factual issues involved here. This will help.

That is where we differ...I know I'll wake up the next day if we end up without the Sonics, and OKC will be better off with the sales tax anyway with the new Ford Center...but I will be really, really disappointed.I understand, and respect your position. On the issue of the City being better off with a new and inproved Ford Center, with or without the Sonics, we can both agree.

*high five for Andy127

Just read on the PI board that PJ Carlesimo (Sonics Head Coach) told ESPN radio that he was looking forward to the move and the greater fan support...That will go over real well in Seattle if the team stays

Guess it does win him some brownie points with his bosses....Needs all he can get after last year's performance

City of Seattle, Sonics make their case
Posted by Eric Williams @ 11:23:38 am

Several filings were made by both the city of Seattle and the Sonics regarding the upcoming June 16 trial late Tuesday.

They included a pretrial order, which outlines the arguments both sides will make in presenting their cases, including witnesses they plan on calling to the stand and evidence they will present during the trial. http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/users/ericwilliams/pretrialorder.pdf

The city’s argument is pretty straight forward: The Sonics signed a lease to play all of its games in KeyArena until Sept. 2010. The KeyArena lease contains a specific performance clause stating that fact, and the city wants the team to honor its contractual obligation.

The city does not want to let the Sonics buy their way out of the lease because the city believes they are a unique tenant that cannot be replaced, and they bring intangible benefits to the city that cannot be reasonably calculated.

The Sonics will argue that the city will not be impacted economically by the team leaving and a buyout of the lease can be reasonably calculated. They also will argue that the city has unclean hands, pointing to its relationship with Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer’s group that tried to get Clay Bennett’s ownership group to sell the Sonics to them. The Sonics also will argue that the specific performance clause would impose undue hardship on the franchise.

The city and the Sonics also presented motions responding to previous filings by both parties designed to limit evidence presented during the six-day trial.

In its motion the city argued the importance of having nationally renowned Seattle author Sherman Alexie and KJR-AM radio talk show host Mitch Levy testify during the trial. http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/users/ericwilliams/Levy-Alexie.pdf

In the filing, Michelle Jensen, an attorney representing the city, states that Levy will present testimony that shows the Sonics have limited their opportunities for free advertising for its players and franchise by limiting the opportunities players and coaches are available to KJR for on-air interviews compared to past seasons.

Jensen also argues that Alexie, a member of the Coeur d’Alene Indian Tribe and a 10-year season ticket holder, can talk about the unique, cultural benefits the Sonics offer the city.

The Sonics also filed several motions, arguing the importance of presenting evidence that shows the dysfunctional relationship between the franchise and the city http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/users/ericwilliams/dysfuntionalrelationship.pdf; their pursuit of a successor venue to KeyArena http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/users/ericwilliams/successorvenueinseattle.pdf; a field survey that shows the Sonics behind the Seahawks and Mariners in fan popularity http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/users/ericwilliams/fieldsurvey.pdf; and testimony from Seattle council member Nick Licata http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/users/ericwilliams/Licata.pdf, who uttered the now famous words that the Sonics have very little cultural value and no economic value to the city.

Sonics Insider (http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/sonics/)

From the Seattle P-I.......

"The city's case is easily defined. Seattle officials believe the lease agreement assumed by Clay Bennett's ownership group requires the Sonics to play their home games at KeyArena through the 2009-10 season.

Less understood are the lines of defense being assembled by the Sonics' attorneys, who will attempt to show why the franchise should be allowed to pay the remaining rent and expenses on the final two years of the lease and be free to play elsewhere as soon as next season.

As stated in the pretrial order, the Professional Basketball Club's legal defenses will include showing the city has "unclean hands" because it acted in bad faith by using the lawsuit to drive up the team's financial losses and attempt to force a sale to a prearranged group of businessmen. Sonics lawyers will argue that making the team play future games at KeyArena would impose "undue hardship" on the club.

Seattle's lawyers attempted to undercut the "unclean hands" issue with a motion last week asking Pechman to exclude as irrelevant all testimony regarding the city's efforts to put together the local group of buyers led by Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer and developer Matt Griffin.

The Sonics came back with their rebuttal this week, arguing that the city used "improper conduct" in subverting Bennett's efforts to gain support for a new arena in Renton due to its desire to keep KeyArena as the sole solution.

Additionally, the lawyers laid out an extensive plan hatched by city leaders in conjunction with former Sonics president Wally Walker that was designed to make things as difficult as possible for Bennett's group both in Seattle and with the NBA, while pushing forward a solution built on forcing a sale to Ballmer and his three partners.

The Sonics charge that the city disclosed confidential financial information to the Ballmer group through Walker after he had been retained by the city to aid its efforts "in plain violation of his fiduciary duties" as a former team executive.

When it became clear Walker's actions might surface in the lawsuit's discovery process, the Sonics say city lawyers then wrote a letter to Walker retroactively making him a "consultant" to the Ballmer group and thus attempting to make his actions confidential.

Pechman will rule at a pretrial conference Friday on whether that type of testimony concerning the Ballmer efforts will be allowed. The Sonics argued this week that the city's motion to suppress that argument is really a veiled attempt to seek summary judgment on their entire line of defense.

The "undue hardship" issue might be even more critical, given the Sonics will contend Pechman shouldn't force the sides into two more years of an untenable working situation."

Sonics, Seattle outline their trial tactics (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365832_trial05.html)

I would love for one of our resident legal experts to sum up all this in a few bullet points for us laymen.

Post # 305 above has a link to Doug's blog.

Sonics would be profitable in OKC, Bennett Says

Seattle SuperSonics owners told the NBA they expect to lose $60.9 million to $64.9 million during the next two years if forced to stay in Seattle, but believe they can turn an $18.8 million profit if allowed to relocate to Oklahoma City.

Sonics Chairman Clay Bennett confirmed the projections in a sworn deposition — most of which was made public for the first time Friday after previously having been withheld as confidential.

Bennett testified he has the financial ability to withstand the projected losses, but added "it's certainly no fun losing a lot of money."

Bennett's testimony was taken in connection with a federal lawsuit filed by the city of Seattle in an effort to force the team to play out the remaining two years on a 15-year lease at Seattle's KeyArena.

The Sonics' Oklahoma owners have asked the judge to allow them to buy their way out of the lease so they can move to Oklahoma City immediately.

"This is a losing proposition on all sides," Bennett stated.

The trial is scheduled to begin June 16 in Seattle.

Much of Bennett's testimony centered on whether the Sonics' Oklahoma owners fulfilled a written promise to spend at least a year making a good faith effort to keep the team in the Seattle area, before turning their attention elsewhere.

Bennett repeatedly insisted they did.

He was quizzed about some e-mails and news articles where various owners mentioned a potential move to Oklahoma City.

One of the most controversial remarks was made by fellow owner Aubrey McClendon, who was fined $250,000 by the NBA in August after telling an Oklahoma City business newspaper, "We didn't buy the team to keep it in Seattle; we hoped to come here."

"I was shocked, absolutely shocked," Bennett testified. "I was upset by it and it was difficult for me because it did not represent what I had spent a great amount of time working on and focused on, and I felt undermined my efforts and being a good friend, it was even worse, affecting another close associate, the commissioner, was even worse.... It was a very difficult experience for me."

Bennett wrote a subsequent e-mail to NBA Commissioner David Stern in which he said, "As absolutely remarkable as it may seem, Aubrey and I have NEVER discussed moving the Sonics to Oklahoma City nor have I discussed it with ANY other member of our ownership group."

Seattle's attorney questioned the truth of the statement, in light of e-mails in which Oklahoma City was mentioned.

"Well, I think what I'm referring to here is never in terms of a bona fide, full-blown process to move or even a decision to move," Bennett said. "Of course we've talked about options, as we did from the beginning."

Some Seattle residents have questioned whether the Bennett group's failure to bring Seattle investors into their group was a sign they never intended to keep the team in Seattle.

Bennett testified the possibility of bringing in Seattle investors was discussed, but it was decided that might actually hinder the owners' effort to obtain public funding for an arena in the Seattle area because the previous ownership group of 58 local people had failed in two previous attempts.

Bennett said the Oklahoma owners believed they "could bring new focus, new energy, new perspective to the process and that for the time being, it makes sense to keep our group put together and keep it small. We knew this would be a dynamic process with a lot of decisions to be made and so ... the tighter the better."

If successful, the Oklahoma owners felt they could bring in Seattle investors later, he said.

Coming from Oklahoma City, which strongly supported the temporary hosting of the New Orleans Hornets after Hurricane Katrina, Bennett expressed surprise at the lack of similar support for the Sonics by Seattle residents, politicians and news media.

"What I will naively admit to was our shocked reaction to the media response to the announcement," Bennett said of the reaction to the announcement that Oklahoma investors would be purchasing the team and pursuing a world-class multipurpose facility in the Seattle area. "And so we immediately began to think... this is not being met with the excitement and pleasure that we might have thought it would be."

Bennett said he thought people would view the Sonics as a valuable asset to the state of Washington.

"I just assumed they were," he said. "I guess as a fan of professional sports and especially the NBA, I assumed they would be highly valued and important to the broad community and I now understand that there's a very diverse population that has very varied interests and it may not be as broadly powerful as I suspected at that time."

"This deal sucks," Bennett wrote in an e-mail to a Sonics lobbyist, after efforts to obtain public funding to support a new arena became bogged down in the Washington Legislature.

Bennett described the blunt comment as "an emotional response to getting bogged down in the process."

He said Washington's governor told him that most of the legislative leadership had little interest in his project, except for the Washington House speaker "who is against it."

Seattle's attorney questioned Bennett about whether the Sonics' efforts to obtain public funding for a $500 million multipurpose facility failed because of the owners' unwillingness to commit personal money to the project.

"We committed to $100 million," Bennett said, indicating that part of that private money would have come from the sale of "founding sponsorships" and part from the owners' personal cash.

Seattle's attorney also questioned Bennett about why Ed Evans, former president of Oklahoma City-based Dobson Communications, dropped out of the ownership group after helping negotiate the purchase of the team.

The attorney asked if it wasn't true that Evans dropped out after being told during a private jet ride to a news conference to announce the purchase of the team that Evans would not be the operating manager of the Sonics and that Bennett would be the spokesman.

"I can't recall that it was at that time," Bennett said. "I can't recall when it was. It was in this time frame but I don't recall specifically being on the flight."

Bennett summed up the owners' reasons for wanting to move from Seattle to Oklahoma City as follows:

"It's become ugly.... It's become a very negative element in the lives of many people.... We have met our obligations to attempt to have a successor venue developed. We've failed in our efforts....We have a binding obligation now with the city of Oklahoma City. So there are two years left to be together in Seattle and my hope is that we can find a way to come to some mutually beneficial position that brings certainty and stability to the many that are involved in this."

The Sonics owners are willing to pay Seattle enough money to improve KeyArena for other purposes in exchange for terminating the lease two years early, he said.

"That's the notion and that's the proposition," he said. "It's nothing more than that."

Since the deposition the City of Seattle lawyers have decided not to focus on the good-faith aspect. Seems the wasted a lot of discovery time trying to build that case only to drop it 10 days before the trial. I think I smell a deal coming.

Since the deposition the City of Seattle lawyers have decided not to focus on the good-faith aspect. Seems the wasted a lot of discovery time trying to build that case only to drop it 10 days before the trial. I think I smell a deal coming.

Judge lays down the law in Sonics case (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/366198_trial07.html)

I don't think they're going to get to limit the case they way they wanted to.

Since the deposition the City of Seattle lawyers have decided not to focus on the good-faith aspect. Seems the wasted a lot of discovery time trying to build that case only to drop it 10 days before the trial. I think I smell a deal coming.

I would love to see a settlement worked out before the trial. I just can't imagine what it could be where the SOS types don't go completely nuclear.

Of course, what are we talking, a couple of dozen guys?

I dunno...this sucker just seems bound for trial. There's no rumor of the two sides even talking, you know?

Mallen, do you think Seattle not being allowed to focus the suit on specific performance helps the Sonics' case much? Does this mean they get to include the "unclean hands" argument?

I would hope this would help push Seattle towards considering a settlement. I have heard rumors, but just on this side of the case, nothing out of Seattle. The SOS guy, while somewhat off the wall at times, does seem to have close enough connections to Seattle politics that I would have expected him to mention something if those rumors were true.

Mallen, do you think Seattle not being allowed to focus the suit on specific performance helps the Sonics' case much? Does this mean they get to include the "unclean hands" argument?

I would hope this would help push Seattle towards considering a settlement. I have heard rumors, but just on this side of the case, nothing out of Seattle. The SOS guy, while somewhat off the wall at times, does seem to have close enough connections to Seattle politics that I would have expected him to mention something if those rumors were true.

.....and he keeps insisting that he's in close contact with the Mayors office and that the Mayor is "standing firm" and not willing to consider a buyout of the lease.

Here are some more deposition transcripts...


Local News | Excerpts from Clay Bennett's April 23 deposition | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004463467_webbennettdeposition07m.html)

Deposition of NBA executive Joel Litvin http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/06/06/2004463275.pdf

Deposition of Seattle developer Matt Griffin http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/06/06/2004463278.pdf

I dunno...this sucker just seems bound for trial. There's no rumor of the two sides even talking, you know?

I dunno... now that Seattle's Motions in Limine seem to have been denied at the PTC, it looks like the prospect for a settlement is now better than ever.

You know as well as I do how many cases are literally settled on the court house steps.

At that point, both players will have shown their cards and seen their opponents' cards.

Well isn't this ironic....

sonicscentral.com :: View topic - Fans efforts make it as evidence (http://www.sonicscentral.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=6732)

I love it. I am not sure why the City would submit those comments as evidence but I love it. Talk about proving the dysfunction. Even the people that actually show up to the games are dysfunctional. Thank you City of Seattle.

I dunno... now that Seattle's Motions in Limine seem to have been denied at the PTC, it looks like the prospect for a settlement is now better than ever.

You know as well as I do how many cases are literally settled on the court house steps.

At that point, both players will have shown their cards and seen their opponents' cards.

The only thing about this settlement is that would would take a pretty sophisticated set of negotiations to hammer one out, I venture. If there aren't any rumors with legs about these negotiations taking place, I think it's less like that your average case to be settled at this point.

Mallen, do you think Seattle not being allowed to focus the suit on specific performance helps the Sonics' case much? Does this mean they get to include the "unclean hands" argument?

I would hope this would help push Seattle towards considering a settlement. I have heard rumors, but just on this side of the case, nothing out of Seattle. The SOS guy, while somewhat off the wall at times, does seem to have close enough connections to Seattle politics that I would have expected him to mention something if those rumors were true.

Unclean hands is an affirmative defense to a claim for an equitable remedy. Really, that doesn't even mean you have to "win" or "be right" because all you're doing is trying to avoid a remedy being given. Here, we want to avoid the equitable remedy of specific performance. Obviously, we all know the lease is valid- it's a valid contract with a perfectly valid specific performance clause. PBC wants a "legal remedy" (in the form of cash damages) and Seattle wants an "equitable remedy" in the form of the court forcing the Sonics to stay in Seattle for the rest of the lease.

SO, the short answer is YES, this helps the Sonics. Seattle tried unsuccessfully to narrow the case after initially making it broader. We can be and are "wrong" in the sense they want to break a contract. Courts generally disfavor equitable rememdies because they are painful for many involved (e.g.- it's usually "harder" on the loser to perform an equitable remedy, it's usually harder for a court to monitor equitable remedies, and technically the court's authority extends as long as it takes for the remedy to be performed. In a cash payment, the court's authority ends right there, and it's quick and clean.) It benefits PBC at this point to show ALL the evidence of a dysfunctional relationship, to show that a cash payment is "fair" to both parties, etc.

Seattle would have been best off (I think) if they had stuck to simply the lease, the specific performance clause, and then called it a day. Instead, they built a record of dysfunctional relations between the parties AND helped bring to light evidence that probably would have been irrelevant generally if they weren't trying to show how big and mean that bully PBC is. The showing of a valid contract and that it should be enforced is MUCH easier and cleaner than trying to prove bad faith dealings, etc.

The only thing about this settlement is that would would take a pretty sophisticated set of negotiations to hammer one out, I venture. If there aren't any rumors with legs about these negotiations taking place, I think it's less like that your average case to be settled at this point.

If they're even talking at this point, It's very hush, hush. It will be interesting to see if the judge's rulings today might get talks started.

This is from this mornings Seattle Times.....

Sonics | Seattle vs. Sonics: Trial starts next week, if there's no settlement | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2004465996_soni09.html)

The dialogue between the team and the city had been terse. And that's when they were even talking — they haven't engaged in meaningful negotiations since February.

"It's always a good idea to talk," Seattle City Attorney Tom Carr said. "It's usually a failure if a case ends up getting to trial. Generally, there's a solution to every problem."

Carr would not speculate on the prospects for a pretrial settlement; nor would Dan Mahoney, spokesman for Sonics chairman Clay Bennett.

Seattle would have been best off (I think) if they had stuck to simply the lease, the specific performance clause, and then called it a day. Instead, they built a record of dysfunctional relations between the parties AND helped bring to light evidence that probably would have been irrelevant generally if they weren't trying to show how big and mean that bully PBC is. The showing of a valid contract and that it should be enforced is MUCH easier and cleaner than trying to prove bad faith dealings, etc.

I have to believe that the broad discovery was orchestrated by Gorton in hopes of providing the smoking gun needed for Shultz to file his suit.

Quite possible, but it certainly didn't turn up too much that's a slamdunk, by any stretch. The suit was filed on a half-sentence, and they didn't find much more than that, really. This Seattle suit is the better suit.

Judges do NOT like when there are not negotiuations. Judges don't like when trials actualy occur, even. I bet you're right: Judge Pechman will probably be pretty peeved this week is they aren't even attempting to talk.

Then maybe this helps our side......this is from the same article.....

"In April, Bennett urged civic leaders to make a counterproposal after the city rejected his $26.5 million offer to buy out the final two years of the lease and move the team to Oklahoma City next season".

That certainly won't hurt PBC in the eyes of the court. At least SOMEONE was trying to avoid trial.

Judge rules on pretrial motions in Sonics case | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/judge-rules-on-pretrial-motions-in-sonics-case/article/3254887/?tm=1213037722)

Judge rules on pretrial motions in Sonics case

By Gene Johnson
AP Legal Affairs Writer
SEATTLE (AP) - A federal judge on Monday declined to place limits on what evidence the owners of the Seattle SuperSonics may offer during a trial that could determine whether the team moves to Oklahoma City next season.

In pretrial motions, Seattle lawyers asked U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman to bar the Sonics from introducing evidence that the team and the city had a "dysfunctional" relationship, that survey results show most residents don't care if the Sonics leave, and that the team tried to obtain a new arena in the Seattle area.

They also wanted to block the Sonics ownership group, the Professional Basketball Club, from pointing out the city's efforts to have the team sold to a local partnership led by Microsoft Chief Executive Steve Ballmer.

Pechman declined, saying that some of the city's motions raised questions of law, rather than just evidence.

"The court will not preclude PBC from offering potentially relevant evidence at this time, but will hear all proper objections during the course of the trial," she wrote in a two-page order.

Pechman will hear the six-day trial herself, without a jury, beginning next Monday. The city sued last year in an attempt to prevent the Sonics from breaking their lease at KeyArena before it runs out in 2010.

The judge did grant the team's motion to exclude one witness for the city, talk radio host Mitch Levy. The city disclosed Levy's name too late, and the Sonics did not have a chance to depose him or prepare any rebuttal.

However, Pechman also said she would allow National Book Award winner Sherman Alexie to testify for the city. Seattle's lawyers said they hoped to call Alexie because he's a season-ticket holder, a big fan and can discuss the team's importance in Seattle. Attorneys for the Sonics had asked that he be barred, claiming he had nothing relevant to say.

one thing i've noticed from keeping up with this whole fiasco is that we've finally have the paper and even the locals in seattle (and other rags n mags) calling us OKC instead of OK CITY.
which, for some reason, is a big deal to me.

Yes, but on the Seattle Times web site they have a graphic showing who all of the players in the are and they use a cowboy boot to represent OKC. I hate that. Of course our own Convention and Vistors Bureau used a spining spur logo for years so I guess it is our own fault.

Ignoring our heritage doesn't make it not exist. I think people in Oklahoma and OKC would be happier and have a better self-image if we simply embraced our culture instead of being embarrassed of it. You should see how native americans are treated in New Mexico as opposed to here...it's like night and day. They ENJOY adding that to their culture. Accoridng to some, we should never acknowledge that we had a dust bowl, cowboys, or indians.

Anyway, PBC came out quite favorbly on the motion rulings!!! :D

yeah, i agree, folks on the east coast get excited when they see something like the red earth festival or tour the stockyards... it's exotic to them. however, the fact that they can stay at the colcord or skirvin, dine at nonna's or swing by the apple store to grab a new i-phone to replace the one they lost while "roughing it" in oklahoma makes their stay pleasant and tolerable.
in fact, i was helping a guy yesterday who is somehow connected with the chinese softball team... and he kept asking for a cowboy hat!
btw, i bought a sweet jersey off the coach's back.

Accoridng to some, we should never acknowledge that we had a dust bowl, cowboys, or indians.

I don't know that it's we should never acknowledge these things, so much as find a way to move beyond them. We have plenty of "icons" that speak to our past, but at the same time there comes a point when we need to embrace our possibilities, too. Not all of our iconography has to be based on cowboys, indians and the Grapes of Wrath.

I don't know that it's we should never acknowledge these things, so much as find a way to move beyond them. We have plenty of "icons" that speak to our past, but at the same time there comes a point when we need to embrace our possibilities, too. Not all of our iconography has to be based on cowboys, indians and the Grapes of Wrath.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Why would we want to lose our heritage and change our culture to be just like everyone else.

It seems like we are increadibly insecure.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Why would we want to lose our heritage and change our culture to be just like everyone else.

It seems like we are increadibly insecure.

So then, if I understand what you are saying, the only "icons" we should have will be some incarnation of cowboys, indians, buffalo and the like.

Do we not have ANYthing else to offer in terms of culture?

The last I checked the people of Oklahoma quit using horses as a primary mode of transportation at about the same time as the rest of the world. How come Tampa doesn't build on their Cowboy heritage? After all, they rode horses just like they did in OKC. Why didn't the Seattle Times use a biomedical symbol to represent Oklahoma? That is more realistic image of modern day OKC.

Maybe it is, but it's not traditional or easily understood. Sure, that's a stereotype of us, I just don't think it must immediately be considered negative. Besides, like Seattle understand anything about any of us "fly-over" states.

it's our niche that should not be neglected. we will never escape those cliches... dallas is the 4th largest mass of people in the US, has a fantastic & modern downtown and many fortune 500 companies are based there... but has yet to escape it's cowboy image.
few places can capitalize on such an image as us.
that doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue nanotechnology and whatnot. the dj crew i'm a part of is on the cutting edge of electro music... but we get so much more attention cause we're from oklahoma and doin it well.

See Ed that is what I am saying. Being good at something AND being from Oklahoma makes it a surprise because Oklahoma is supposed to be cowboy and Indians not electro music. Would you ever see the following sentence?

the dj crew i'm a part of is on the cutting edge of electro music... but we get so much more attention cause we're from Phoenix and doin it well.

what i'm saying is that there are people doing cutting edge music, medical research, nano tube research and yada yada yada... but i don't believe those stereotypes are holding us back any longer. i think they are assets that should be exploited. thanx to the internet and myspace... the playing field is starting to become more level and i love being underestimated and being "the surprise you're looking for"

the robot dancers cutting edge???? ha!

... and i love being underestimated and being "the surprise you're looking for"

LOL - you got me there. But I guess it is better than saying, "Oklahoma City - Exactly what you would expect, Yee Haw."

Now, what were we talking about, oh yea, the Sonics lawsuit.

Ignoring our heritage doesn't make it not exist. I think people in Oklahoma and OKC would be happier and have a better self-image if we simply embraced our culture instead of being embarrassed of it. You should see how native americans are treated in New Mexico as opposed to here...it's like night and day. They ENJOY adding that to their culture. Accoridng to some, we should never acknowledge that we had a dust bowl, cowboys, or indians.

That's why I like the new OKC CVB logo. It has a sleek modern look, and it incorporates our renaissance (rowing on the river) with our past (cowboy boot-shaped skyscrapers) in a creative way.

http://www.visitokc.com/graphics/header/logo.jpg

The last I checked the people of Oklahoma quit using horses as a primary mode of transportation at about the same time as the rest of the world. How come Tampa doesn't build on their Cowboy heritage? After all, they rode horses just like they did in OKC. Why didn't the Seattle Times use a biomedical symbol to represent Oklahoma? That is more realistic image of modern day OKC.

Bet you $100 bucks we have more horses per capita in Oklahoma vs Florida.

Do I think horses should be in the downtown metro? No.

But I am not ashamed of seeing horses or cows in pastures as I am driving between towns either.

Bet you $100 bucks we have more horses per capita in Oklahoma vs Florida.

Do I think horses should be in the downtown metro? No.

But I am not ashamed of seeing horses or cows in pastures as I am driving between towns either.On their web-page the OKC C of C touts OKC as being "The Horse Capitol". How backwards is that. No wonder all those people up in NYC and out in L.A. think we still ride our horses to work.

OU Adonis - we might be on the same page here. If Purcell wants to tout the horse farms and ranches then fine by me. I just don't like the states largest city touting that it is some kind of 1890's western town in the midst of 21st century America.

When I was at OU there was a one week "celebration" of American Indians. The leader of their group went on and on about how they wanted to use the one week time period to dispell the sterotypes about Indians. Well guess what their big display was. A freaking tee-pee! Is their anyone in the world that doesn't think Indians still live in tee-pees? That is the sterotype. A better use of their time and effort would have been to show the American Indians impact on the modern day world by identifying researchers, scientist, government leaders, athletes with American Indian heritage. That would have dispelled the sterotypes.

When the City doesn't make an effort to put forth a modern day image then it allows the sterotype to continue. I for one am tired of it. Yes the new logo for CVB looks better but it still has the boots in it. Boots in downtown OKC died in the 1980's in reality but lives on in the marketing efforts of central Oklahoma. Let's move on already.

Yes, but on the Seattle Times web site they have a graphic showing who all of the players in the are and they use a cowboy boot to represent OKC. I hate that. Of course our own Convention and Vistors Bureau used a spining spur logo for years so I guess it is our own fault.

Unfortunately I think they still use this logo occasionally. I saw it on a billboard as recently as 3-4 months ago.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Why would we want to lose our heritage and change our culture to be just like everyone else.

It seems like we are increadibly insecure.

I agree OU Adonis. We may be PROUD of our city finally, but many folks are still insecure. I don't know any other major city in America that is embarrassed or doesn't embrace their past. Oklahomans (even some of us proud ones) still have a HUGE inferiority problem. When we learn to embrace our history and culture and past culture, THEN we will see the tourism coffers explode. People don't want to visit what they can get elsewhere, they want to come here for our unique history. Texas seems to embrace the Cowboy heritage just fine (and they are making bank off it).

Boots in downtown OKC died in the 1980's in reality .

False.


I don't WANT to be Kansas City or LA or NYC or some other city with a more "sophisticated" stereotype. There's nothing sophisiticated about all their gang violence and traffic and low quality of life, none of which we have to endure here in our fair burg. I want to be OKC, and our western heritage is part of it.

False.
I don't WANT to be Kansas City or LA or NYC or some other city with a more "sophisticated" stereotype. There's nothing sophisiticated about all their gang violence and traffic and low quality of life, none of which we have to endure here in our fair burg. I want to be OKC, and our western heritage is part of it.


You're absolutely right. There's not one thing wrong with boots or the western culture/heritage that exists in this city. I wear boots all the time, have had the same pair since the late 70's.

Some of you posters, for some reason, have the misguided notion that to turn our backs on the reality of what this great city was and is, is the surest path to becoming the New Jerusalem or something. Time and again you can read in this very forum about the need for something different to set us apart. Yet here, when we have that very thing, the history that belongs to us, many badmouth it, are for some reason embarrassed by it, and want to magically change it into someone's perception of what a hip, vibrant west coast city would be.

Yeah, we've got our fair share of rubes and rednecks, but that alone shouldn't dictate how we, the rest of us, feel about the true nature of this wonderful, still wild and free city.

Now.....what about that Sonics thread.

I don't mind the boot thing, but saying our quality of life is better than there’s is a little specious. Those markets have soooooo much you can't even get here. Maybe they have higher concentrations in some areas of some of the bad stuff than we do, but they also have higher concentrations of the good stuff, like high paying jobs, entertainment options, affluent living, etc. Sure, if you measure quality of life solely on the price per square foot paid for your house, then yeah, it's better here. But if you measure it on the actual living options, then we have a long way to go.

However, I don't think using boots and cowboys in our marketing have anything to do with any of the discrepancies, good or bad.

> touts OKC as being "The Horse Capitol". How backwards is that

Not backwards at all. There is more than a few shovels of income income generated through the horse industry, and not just in Purcell, Norman and the surrounding countryside. Boots may not be on the feet of bankers, but they remain very much on the feet of many man Oklahomans, including thos in OKC.

Being blessed with new avenues of recognitiond oesn't mean the old have died off, we're just maturing as a state ... happens when ya hit that second century :)

I've been saying for along time that we need to embrace and not be ashamed of our cowboy and western heritage. A city or state can be both metropolitan and retain their old west roots.

As someone mentioned before, Texas is a great example of that. Just look at Dallas. Dallas has some very cosmopolitan clubs, places and people but you also never forget you're in Texas when you're there. Look at their pro teams: Cowboys, Mavericks and Rangers. All adhere to their western heritage.

I know as Oklahomans we're supposed to all hate Texas, but we can also learn from what they do right.

Back to topic of Sonics please............... These next 7-17 days will be the information we've been waiting for for quite some time. Lots of information to come out.

Thanks metro. I'm still thinking little to no chance of settlement at this point.

...Of course our own Convention and Vistors Bureau used a spining spur logo for years...

I always thought that was a sun.

We won a lot in pretrial recently.