Ah the wonders of political sport, the only game in town where the players are absolved of all risk and the only losers stand to be the image of the state, and all of the tax payers who have contributed to this project, and will end up needing to contribute vastly more later than they would have if it had just been completed. Increased costs due to remobilizing, project knowlege loss costs, increased costs of materials and uncertain available labor when it finally does come off high center...AWESOME!

This is pathetic. With all the money already invested they need to bite their lip and finish this project now.

I agree. Use Medicaid money. I am not being sarcastic but dead bang serious.

This is pathetic. With all the money already invested they need to bite their lip and finish this project now.


Sunken Cost Fallacy

The most recent restart the workers began an addition. That seems so idiotic to me. I think they should have finished what was already started.

I agree. Use Medicaid money. I am not being sarcastic but dead bang serious.

I have so many responses for a ridiculous comment like this, but I'll just say to keep views like this on the political forum.

I agree. Use Medicaid money. I am not being sarcastic but dead bang serious.

As a fiscal conservative I have to ask you if you really think that it is more important for that building to get finished on your time schedule than for thousands of kids to get to go to the doctor?

Its time for folks to stop looking to the govt to take care of them. Churches do a helluva better job at that anyways.

Its time for folks to stop looking to the govt to take care of them. Churches do a helluva better job at that anyways.


Excellent point.

I know this has been brought up before, but why shouldn't we expect the tribes contribute more of their earned-from-the-stupid billions from slot machines to finish this?

As much as I want this to be finished, with the state budget being the way it is, this is actually quite a low priority for state funding.

Its time for folks to stop looking to the govt to take care of them. Churches do a helluva better job at that anyways.

Take this crap to the political board. I am not interested in hearing your selfish and uninformed political views.

I know this has been brought up before, but why shouldn't we expect the tribes contribute more of their earned-from-the-stupid billions from slot machines to finish this?

As much as I want this to be finished, with the state budget being the way it is, this is actually quite a low priority for state funding.

You ask why the tribes can't contribute more of their money when I think the reality is very little money at all has been pledged or given from the tribes. That's part of the rub with many folks. Many of the tribes have built or are planning to build their own cultural centers, so many of them could care less about this project. I do not know the reality as it stands today, but at one point I was in a meeting where some of the leadership behind this project relayed that only one tribe had really contributed anything significant. I'm not sure if that's true today or not, but at the time I was amazed that was the case.

Also, I know for a fact that at one point, there was a small influential group that looked into making this a part of MAPS3 believe it or not. It went nowhere fast. The flaw in that thought was the public's "perception" was this facility was fully funded and moving towards completion, so if it showed up in MAPS, people would go nuts. The counterpoint was MAPS represents a brand that creates new projects, not bails other ones out. The thought was some infusion of MAPS money ($15-25m) would help stimulate the state in coming up with the rest after seeing MAPS support it. The proponents for including it in MAPS said although it's a state problem, OKC will suffer from the black eye, not the state. At the time, they reported another $75m was needed to finish. That was a couple of years ago.

The bottom line is the perception and reality have always been way off, not to mention they started the project before having all the money in hand or secured. I think the thought was this is a no brainier and there's no way it won't get done, but here we are. It is a political hot potato and I'm afraid it's become OK's big dig. Hopefully as a state, the politicians will find some common ground and get it done even though it will probably cost us much more than originally advertised. That's going to be hard to accomplish politically because I don't think the contributions from the tribes will ever amount to as much as the common citizen feels it should.

That's my 2 cents.

Its time for folks to stop looking to the govt to take care of them. Churches do a helluva better job at that anyways.

Ah yes.. back in the literal dark ages, when churches and barbers took care of all of your healthcare needs... things really were better then!

Or how about we ask for some donations from the community and see if we can't get some corporate sponsorship on board for a change isntead of saying that it can only be completed if it's state money? The tribes have zero interest in the project because it minimizes their own tribes by squeezing them into one facility rather than visiting the centers done much better to each group's ideals across the state.

This is a tourist destination more than anything. We can call it a museum and whatever, but it's like visiting the OKC art museum and saying it represents all of art. Of course it doesn't, it's only a very small slice of what happens to be in that building. So if you want to build a tourist destination, get some money from somewhere other than the state for a change. I'd personally rather see programs funded that help thousands of people every day than use any more state money on this thing. You have no idea how many programs could be back to full funding with the amount that this facility has and needs.

I don't believe the development money for this came from, or will come from the operating funds of the state. This is about bonds being issued on the credit of the state. Only if the revenue projections fail to materialize is there real risk to the state and that is limited to the shortfall. When you compare it to other programs it is apples to oranges and more conservative misguided, tho well intentioned idiology. The reality is that by halting the project now and or killing it we will realize the same losses and worse... the state cut its own throat on this project. Without it being completed it will have no chance to pay the bonds off. This is classic cutting your nose off to spite your face. Dumb, dumb, dumb. And a cultural (and yes, touristic opportunity) loss for the states and our citizens.

And yes, this is a cultural museum. The analogy above is absurd. Any art museum does not represent all art, but gives people an insight into art in general and some types of art specifically. No museum represents the totality of the subject it is engaged in. And to say the tribes need to pay for it is as absurd as saying the Italians need to pay for our Museum of Art because we have some Renaissance Italian art in it.

We need a little common sense in our leadership and we just don't seem to get it.

Sunken Cost Fallacy

LOL - that is how some people play poker. Of course, those same people are out of the game quickly becasue they keep betting on a losing hand. This place was billed as a Royal Flush ($3 billion in economic impact) but it is really a pair of 5s. Even the Indian tribes don't want it.

I don't believe the development money for this came from, or will come from the operating funds of the state. This is about bonds being issued on the credit of the state. Only if the revenue projections fail to materialize is there real risk to the state and that is limited to the shortfall. When you compare it to other programs it is apples to oranges and more conservative misguided, tho well intentioned idiology. The reality is that by halting the project now and or killing it we will realize the same losses and worse... the state cut its own throat on this project. Without it being completed it will have no chance to pay the bonds off. This is classic cutting your nose off to spite your face. Dumb, dumb, dumb. And a cultural (and yes, touristic opportunity) loss for the states and our citizens.


Where do you think the debt service payments come from?


And to say the tribes need to pay for it is as absurd as saying the Italians need to pay for our Museum of Art because we have some Renaissance Italian art in it.

We need a little common sense in our leadership and we just don't seem to get it.

Now, THAT is an absurd analogy.

As has been discussed earlier, the state is the entity behind this project with some help from the city of OKC. It was never intended to be funded by the tribes, although I know they were hoping to get more private contributions.

The tribes all have their own tourist attractions / cultural centers. It would be nice if they helped but 1) that was never a key part of the plan and 2) you can't blame them for not wanting fork over millions now.

Where do you think the debt service payments come from?

Visitors.

And now, because of the brilliance of a few, there won't be visitors, so WE the taxpayers WILL pay. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy which the detractors will now point to in their ignorance and claim some sort of victory with "I Told You So" as their anthem...not realizing the joke is on them.


Now, THAT is an absurd analogy.

Why? You want the tribes to pay for it because they are the subject? This isn't a tribal museum, this is a museum and cultural center highlighting the native Oklahoma culture and history. My analogy is accurate.

As has been discussed earlier, the state is the entity behind this project with some help from the city of OKC. It was never intended to be funded by the tribes, although I know they were hoping to get more private contributions.

The tribes all have their own tourist attractions / cultural centers. It would be nice if they helped but 1) that was never a key part of the plan and 2) you can't blame them for not wanting fork over millions now.

Whether or not it was a key part of the plan is irrelevant now. The state doesn't have money and it won't for a while. If this project is to be completed in the near future, funding most likely needs to come from a private source. I merely suggested the tribes because they have a booming source of revenue from idiots who put their paychecks in slot machines. They seemed like the most logical choice; but if we have another source, let's go for it.

But, to paraphrase Pete, you can't blame the taxpayer for not wanting to fork over millions to finish this project when basic DHS child welfare programs are being cut.

If this is done by selling bonds the timing would be great now. Interest rates are at historic lows. And construction costs are manageable. In our wisdom though we will probably wait until rates are high and materials go up. This is the thinking of people who constantly only buy when the market is great and sell when the market is low. LOL

Visitors.

And now, because of the brilliance of a few, there won't be visitors, so WE the taxpayers WILL pay. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy which the detractors will now point to in their ignorance and claim some sort of victory with "I Told You So" as their anthem...not realizing the joke is on them.


Debt servicing on these bonds is paid for through the state's operating budget, at least on the state's portion of the debt. And if you think revenues from visitors are going to be funnelled back to the servicing budget, quite frankly, you're being naive. Any revenues this attraction brings in from visitors will assuredly be used for upkeep and the center's operations--not for debt servicing. And, yes, even if somewhere, somehow, they have a clause in the financing agreement that says "such and such % of visitor fees must be used...". It won't happen. It almost never does.

Your analogy was absurd because you compared Native American tribal obligations to a Native American cultural center and museum to the Italian community's obligation to an Art Museum. If you can't understand the patent absurdity of that analogy, it's not worth discussing.

king183, I didn't mean my post to be counter to yours, and I don't disagree the tribes might be a good resource. It would just represent a big shift from the original plan and I'm not sure there is an easy way to make it happen.

Your analogy was absurd because you compared Native American tribal obligations to a Native American cultural center and museum to the Italian community's obligation to an Art Museum. If you can't understand the patent absurdity of that analogy, it's not worth discussing.

I am sorry you fail to be able to understand the analogy. This isn't an obligation of the tribes. The culture and history of the tribes are the subject.

Your explanation is more like artists funding a gallery to sell their art, not a museum. There is a fundamental difference.

I am sorry you fail to be able to understand the analogy. This isn't an obligation of the tribes. The culture and history of the tribes are the subject.

And this is the fundamental problem. Indians, and their culture, are not materials to be sold by other people, especially a government entity. I find the whole thing to be about as offensive as you can get. Selling other people's culture is shameful.

Just the Facts: I think Pete pointed it out a while back, it was a head of one of the tribes that drove this from the beginning. As Oklahoman's it is our shared culture. While I don't have enough native blood to qualify as a particular tribal member, I do have it mixed in and I have absolutely no problem with this at all. I have discussed this with some full blooded co-workers, and they don't have a problem with it either.

And this is the fundamental problem. Indians, and their culture, are not materials to be sold by other people, especially a government entity. I find the whole thing to be about as offensive as you can get. Selling other people's culture is shameful.

Now this thread is just sophmoric. That is like saying the Western Heritage Museum is about selling the cowboy culture and that is shameful, or the Anthropologic museum in Mexico City is disrespectful and offensive, or the Holocaust Museum in Washington is disrespectful. Paying homage to the Native American Culture and showing its history, culture, art and significant other contributions to Oklahoma and its citizens is utmost respect. In an attempt to make a point you have successfully ridiculed the whole idea of museums and cultural centers. What is shameful is burying the story and ignoring the impact.

I just read through two different threads where JustTheFacts was getting lectured by everyone else. It seems to happen every time he/she posts. Goodness. Think before you type.

I just read through two different threads where JustTheFacts was getting lectured by everyone else. It seems to happen every time he/she posts. Goodness. Think before you type.

It is just Rover both times. He doesn't have an original thought in his head. Well, at least if he does, he hasn't presented any of them on OKCTalk.

It is just Rover both times. He doesn't have an original thought in his head. Well, at least if he does, he hasn't presented any of them on OKCTalk.

LOL. Thank goodness thoughts don't have to be original to be correct.

Rover, you say you want visitors to pay the debt huh? What happens when the place isn't open for another 5 years and the debt start coming up due? Who is supposed to pay then? It's the state, which means it has to come out of somewhere else. And you are NOT going to see people outside of OKC getting excited to fund something that they will most likely never visit. Would you want to pay for a museum in Tulsa with state funds? It swings both ways.

Forget state funds and push it private like it should have been in the first place....and don't expect tribes to contribute. When was the last time you saw a collection of different cultures work together to build a combined museum of their heritages? That would be like asking everyone in Asia to put in money for one museum that is supposed to cover everyone. In case you haven't noticed, each tribe is different from the next and holds totally different ideals. And we're asking to lump them all together under one roof.

I won't be open and visitors won't pay for it...guaranteed based on the last actions taken. That's what I meant when I said it becomes a "self fulfilling prophecy". It seems idiotic to torpedo it at this stage.

Rarely are museums private. It is for the greater cultural health of our state. I know it is Tea Party fashionable to talk about EVERYTHING being private, but it is unrealistic. When culture and knowledge becomes the strict domain of the wealthy who can buy it then we are a sad community indeed. This story needs to be told.

The idea that the subject is Native American therefore it needs to be paid for by Native Americans is just silly, silly, silly. Let's make artists pay to have their art hung in a museum. Heaven forbid on the science museums, anthropological museums, natural history museums....how will we ever get those atoms, dinosaurs or ancient Incans to pay their fair share? LOL. This museum teaches about OKLAHOMA and the history of the peoples who make it up, focused on the Native Americans, indigenous or transported here. It is not about a singe tribe or point of view. What about that don't people get?

About the time the legislative geniuses shot down the bond issue there was an article in one of the papers stating that the tribes would donate a matching amount for the completion of the center. If I remember correctly the article stated that the state was looking to generate 40 million and that the tribes would match that. Since I don't have access to the DOK archives so my search for the article kinda fizzled.

In a related note it would be nice and probably help generate some positive pr if the DOK would re-release the feature they ran about the center when construction was starting. It was a couple of pages long and talked about how the tribes came together to come up with the design for the center and what some of the symbols or design meant.

If this is done by selling bonds the timing would be great now. Interest rates are at historic lows. And construction costs are manageable. In our wisdom though we will probably wait until rates are high and materials go up. This is the thinking of people who constantly only buy when the market is great and sell when the market is low. LOL
Don't know about at the State level but there this recent article in the Oklahoman mentioned the City is having trouble selling its bonds (normally sell $60 to $80MM, but last sell was about $40MM):
http://newsok.com/low-bond-sales-are-slowing-oklahoma-city-projects/article/3594885?custom_click=lead_story_title


Rover, you say you want visitors to pay the debt huh? What happens when the place isn't open for another 5 years and the debt start coming up due? Who is supposed to pay then? It's the state, which means it has to come out of somewhere else. And you are NOT going to see people outside of OKC getting excited to fund something that they will most likely never visit. Would you want to pay for a museum in Tulsa with state funds? It swings both ways. ...
Bond issues have already been extended for it. One article indicated $60 million (mol) to date. the most recent one that got shot down was an additional $40MM. The "debt" already incurred will be coming due if the place is completed, delayed or abandoned completely. The state uses bonds for projects all over the state, so yes OKC is helping to pay for projects up in Tulsa, Tulsa is paying for projects in OKC etc.


...This museum teaches about OKLAHOMA and the history of the peoples who make it up, focused on the Native Americans, indigenous or transported here. It is not about a singe tribe or point of view. What about that don't people get?
I get it.

Rover - um, apparently you haven't read what people have been saying here.

First off, i would bet you that most of the folks here do not fall into the Tea Party. Judging by how people comment here, I would say the vast majority are in fact, moderates....something we lack in the polical landscape today.

Second, you keep trying to say that we're in favor of making the tribes pay for the place. In fact, we've been saying for quite some time that the tribes shouldn't be expected to and that it's not their job to. Most of them have their own cultural centers and this one is simply going to glaze over most of them and throw them into one pot. You can't take thousands and thousands of years of culture and just grab-bag it together in one facility. That doesn't mean you don't try and do something to help raise awareness so the culture isn't lost. You just have to be aware of what limitations a facility like this has from day 1. And honestly, no one ever built a mound like they did....the mound people sure as hell didn't. This place is less culturally aware than "destination" aware right now....and I doubt that will change much.

So I assume you are speaking on behalf of the tribes. I haven't heard them express that. In fact, I believe they were involved in the planning and design phase giving much input.

As to the design elements and symbolisms, it might be enlightening to go to their website and read. http://www.aiccm.org/natural-elements

Because the tribes aren't paying for it doesn't mean it doesn't illustrate the history and culture correctly and importantly. I don't think the Holocaust Museum was paid for by survivors or the Museum of Art was paid for by artists.

As for actual membership in the Tea Party, I have no clue who is or isn't and could care less. But it is the same thought processes. For a group that comes on here to promote culture, cultural diversity, social diversity and enlightenment, it is odd to see so much resistance to something that honors and exposes the history and culture of such a significant portion of this state. Moderate....maybe. But moderate in Oklahoma IS Tea Party. LOL.

Remember when high school and college teams used to have Indian mascots. Who complained and made them get rid of them?

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/8838557/

What part of "leave us alone and stop hocking our culture for a few tourist bucks" are people not understanding?

So you are equating characterized mascots that emphasize only the savage part of the culture with a museum and cultural center? LOLROF.

I am finally starting to understand that you aren't serious about your postings, only meaning to "stir the pot". I will quit taking them so seriously.

So you are equating characterized mascots that emphasize only the savage part of the culture with a museum and cultural center? LOLROF.

I am finally starting to understand that you aren't serious about your postings, only meaning to "stir the pot". I will quit taking them so seriously.

Maybe you don't understand everything that led up to the NCAA ban. For what it is worth, the NCAA ban doesn't even apply to football. However, I don't agree with it either but the Indian tribes across America have made it clear they want to be left alone and not exploited. If that is what they want - then give it to them. It must be pretty cool to have so much power you can decide for an entire nation of people what is best for them, especially when you aren't even a member of that nation (not using the word 'You' in a specific sense - but in a general societal sense). If the Indian nations want a cultural center let them build it. Oh wait, they already did. I guess they just aren't 'world class' enough for some people's taste.

Now you seem to be speaking for the tribes, no? Do you know that they don't want it? Please site your sources.

Now you seem to be speaking for the tribes, no? Do you know that they don't want it? Please site your sources.

Yes - we know they don't want it. Several of the State tribes have spoken out against it becasue they are afraid it will take away from their local cultural centers. I'll see if I can find the newspaper articles.

Wow. That's alot to chew on (refering to all the posts). Overall I would welcome the center and hope it comes through.
I have 1 question. If funding for construction is such an issue, how would the operating cost (wich I imagine would be huge) be paid? I know there are many ways to go about it but it seems like trying to get out of the way from an oncomming train when your feet can't agree on right direction. If arguing could raise money, this would make us all filthy rich, unfortunately it's the other way around.
It's sad because I can imagine this being another one of those projects that turn out badly but had great intentions and potential.

JTF: That would be helpful. Would give us perspective on it. What "opposition" I have seen expressed by some tribes is the impact that it will take from their own local centers. I haven't really seen any objection to the content etc. Any worries about impact on their own, I don't see this as competition per se and could easily be a partner promoting the various tribal specific centers. This one is going to give an overview and anyone interested in vising this one would most likely be interested in the others if it is in their specific travel plans. I can only see this as a win-win for the tribes. As far as their not contributing more to it (there has been some tribal financial involvement), it may come down to priorities. lets make sure we take care of our own needs first and foremost type of thing.

As far as the whole NCAA thing, have tribes voted and made official statements or are the voices behind it individuals that speak loudly and got their voices heard? In other words is it the majority of tribes and tribal members or a vocal minority within?

Maybe you don't understand everything that led up to the NCAA ban. For what it is worth, the NCAA ban doesn't even apply to football. However, I don't agree with it either but the Indian tribes across America have made it clear they want to be left alone and not exploited. If that is what they want - then give it to them. It must be pretty cool to have so much power you can decide for an entire nation of people what is best for them, especially when you aren't even a member of that nation (not using the word 'You' in a specific sense - but in a general societal sense). If the Indian nations want a cultural center let them build it. Oh wait, they already did. I guess they just aren't 'world class' enough for some people's taste.


Ha Ha. Good one! I think I am finally getting to understand you.

valsvic: don't have any specific definitive answer about operational funding but either it is like MAPS projects where they worry about that after it gets built and/or they plan on using income generated by the Center and it will be self-sustaining. Museums and the like rarely seem to be self-sustaining and often require further subsidy for operations. That can come from various sources and doesn't necessarily mean the State (private donations, corporate sponsors etc).

Yes - we know they don't want it. Several of the State tribes have spoken out against it becasue they are afraid it will take away from their local cultural centers. I'll see if I can find the newspaper articles.

Several or all? Because several tribes have also supported the center... and been much more vocal about it.

I'll tell you what - I am going to admit defeat and bow out of this discussion. If the tribes in Oklahoma want the center completed they can pony up more than the $5 million they have provided so far. If the people of Oklahoma want it completed they can provide the rest of the $170 million.

That's entirely the point of the discussion. If someone wanted to pay to have the place completed, they would have already...be it a tribe, the state, private funding, etc. We haven't really seen much of a push from anywhere to make that happen either. So from the outside, it would appear that there aren't too many people with cash, interested in helping to complete the project. So whatever your opinion on the tribes or the state or whatever, unless there's a funding source to complete the project, it doesn't even matter what the operating budget will look like (and there's no way it will be self-sustaining so be ready to help pay for it).

Should those who scammed us into this then be called on to reimburse the city, the state or whoever has put funds into it so far. Evidently they were dilusional when they concocted it. Maybe they should serve a little time for it. They should at least have to explain to the tribes and the taxpayers what made them think it was a good idea and why they were confident enough that the project got started.

Maybe we can sell the shell that exists to some private concern and use the money to save Stage Center.

Has anyone seen this video yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNjWeLKHEeo&sns=em
It was tweeted by Shoshanna Wasserman with the AICCM this morning. It was paid for by the Chickasaw nation and features two former governors and is titled "Finish It." It's an interesting video, mainly because it's unclear who the intended audience is. Taxpayers? Legislators? CEO's of OKC companies? I'd love to get everyone's thoughts on this.

I saw it on the news yesterday morning.

... It's an interesting video, mainly because it's unclear who the intended audience is. Taxpayers? Legislators? CEO's ...

Yes, to all these, and others as well. It's a fair piece of work, though it would of been nice to see a current politico or three also stand up.

But where's the call to action? The AICCM has tried and failed twice to get a vote on funding a bond issue out of committee in the state legislature. It doesn't appear that anyone at the capitol has any appetite for supplying state funds (even ones that would be paid back over time) to complete this project. I have to believe thats because the majority of Oklahomans aren't in favor of such legislation either. Perhaps this video is intended to change public opinion and put pressure on the legislature to take a fresh look at funding alternatives.

Nah, drop some funds over Tulsa way and I suspect this cultural project will also "pop" in available funds.

That was a very well done video, and it captured several key things that will (I hope) 1. Raise Awareness of how significant a facility that this really is. 2. Showcases its integral nature in relation to the Downtown renaissance. 3. Addresses the fact that a project with as significant public investment that has been made has the ability to simply not be completed, sends an unintended message of instability and very well could give developers pause before they push forward serious plans in the area. 4. Allow for the continued momentum of what has been evolving in the downtown area to continue to build off of itself.

It was nice to see many of our leaders of the past who recognize the intense detrimental impacts of this project being left to flounder in the shadows of downtown. There is no hiding this place, is is right down the river from the courses and will be a source of national and international exposure for good (if completed) or ill (if not) The Landform and the striking buildings will draw attention unto itself and so there will be no way for OKC or Oklahoma in general to hide this unfinished project. So we may as well realize that the unfinished project could cost us far more in losses due to the negative PR that we will get, for the negative perceptions that will be reinforced or taken away from this if not completed, such as: That we do not value our history, that we can't live up to what we have been advertising, issues of race and the list goes on and on....the biggest issue is that we will not be able to control the way the rest of America or the world for that matter will take this and run with it.

This project IS critical to get completed because we are too far along for us not to, we have used it as a feather in our chamber videos that have been at the major development conferences and anywhere else we can get them played showcasing Oklahoma and its capitol city. Even the cost of shuttering it for a while and then at some future point dusting off the plans and completing, will cost far more as there will be significant cost increases anytime you demobilize the site and then have to start back up, plus the costs of labor and materials and on and on and on....

The decision to build this facility was made long ago and so there is nothing that can undo that, those dollars are spent, the cost of not completing it are incalculable. Even from a fiscal responsibility standpoint, if you have already ordered the dinner and your date has eaten half of hers already, and you then realize that you do not have the money, you have to work out a way to pay it, or be prepared to wash the dishes. But one thing is for certain, even if you begrudgingly wash the dishes, yes you have met the obligation, but the date that you were hoping to go well is over....(Feel free to insert the developers, Large Corporations looking to relocate etc... into the role of the date in the analogy)

You can be assured that there are many very key people who are keeping an eye on our state and city with interest, and they are waiting for us to support our claims of being world class or waiting for us to falter. The simple fact that we have run into budget issues on the project does not doom nor define us, however how we respond to the challenges that face us do. So so we just try and brush this one under the rug and wait until some casino decides to pony up the money for the land and facility and then become the laughingstock of the nation? Or do we work to identify a viable solution to deliver a promise that was begun a long time ago and let the expense finally mature to the point that it can begin having economic impact to our area. There is no doubt that this will become every bit if not more renowned than the National Cowboy Hall of Fame.

It is my hope that years from now we will recognize this moment for what it is, a pivotal one that had lasting and unimaginable economic impacts on our city.

The Rowing venue is one of Oklahoma's most currently relevant venues for increasing international exposure for something (other than the Thunder.) of permanence and place. When there are significant races being held here they will be looking for shots to showcase its location and this is immediately adjacent to the course!!!! Even in Europe there is a familiarity with the plight and issues of the Native Americans on this continent. You cannot buy this type of public advertising that will be a boon to tourism to our city and state.

We must finish this project.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20110519_16_A1_CUTLIN904400

According to this article from May 2011, the project is not dead, it's on a strategic pause. State leaders had questions that needed to be answered.

Well said, OKC@heart, bravo.

Throwing good money after bad money is not a solution. Who keeps in investing in boondoggles after they are discovered to be boondoggles? Just like in poker, once you realize you have a losing hand it is best to fold. Save your money for a winning hand.

So enough with the figurative crap; I don't know what the hell a boondoggle is, and I'm not sure I wanna know.

This is not just like poker. In fact, this is a state-wide, public/private, multi-million dollar collaborative project between governments. This is not as easy as a "losing" or "winning" hand, I assure you.

I don't know what the hell a boondoggle is...

Boondoggle: a wasteful or impractical project or activity often involving graft

Graft: the acquisition of gain (as money) in dishonest or questionable ways; also : illegal or unfair gain


This project was funded under the outrageous claim that it would generate over $2.6 billion in revenue in the next 20 years. That simply is not possible. The State Legislature was lied to in order get funding for this project. The people who pushed this project should be investigated and sent to prison.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080326_1__OKLAH08807


According to a 2003 economic impact study by Applied Economics, the total economic benefit of the American Indian Cultural Center to the state economy over 20 years could reach $2.6 billion. The annual impact could be as much as $128.8 million, the study found.

If $150 million could be turned into $2.6 billion in 20 years the private sector would be all over this in a heartbeat.