This will not be a popular suggestion in this forum, but I think we should take half of the Maps III streetcar funds and finish funding the project. It will serve a greater number of OKC citizens than what the steetcar running up to 13th steet will serve in twenty years.

I would tell you what I think of that suggestion but Pete would ban me for a year. However, it has convention space and a hotel so maybe the Convention Center funds should be diverted instead. According to the $3.8 billion economic impact estimate it blows the convention center out of the water by $3 billion dollars and then we use the remaing CC funds to fix up the Cox Center.

Also, your inference that Indians should derive some kind of self-worth from a state project that uses their culture to drive tourism dollars back to the state is disgusting. The next you know you will start naming sports team after them to show how much you honor them.

Talk about finding the black cloud on a sunny day. This isn't just about tourism. It is about telling a story of our citizens' history that is interesting and significant that people will want to hear about. People will pay to hear about and that revenue makes it possible. Try as you may to try to trivialize the importance of the Native American history, its significance to us, and the willingness of others to help support telling of the history, you cannot do it.

I would tell you what I think of that suggestion but Pete would ban me for a year. However, it has convention space and a hotel so maybe the Convention Center funds should be diverted instead. According to the $3.8 billion economic impact estimate it blows the convention center out of the water by $3 billion dollars and then we use the remaing CC funds to fix up the Cox Center.

Go ahead and tell me anyway. If banned, it would probably give you time to finish the other half of the urban planning book you bought that allows you to fit in with the majority of posters in the forum. Completing the book would probably make you feel like more of an expert on everthing than you do now, if that is possible. What I wrote is only my opinion and I was asking no one to agree with me.

It must not be forgotten that they are a state agency. When agencies fail to properly manage state funds, they must be held accountable, even if they are charged with building a nice, pretty thing that we would all love to have ASAP. In 2008 they promised to raise $75 million in private funds. They have raised less than $300,000. I'm left to conclude they haven't even made an attempt to follow through on their promise, but in any case they have proven themselves to be derelict in their management of this project. Any frustration should be directed to the staff.

This not a "nice pretty thing". That is totally trivializing its purpose. Secondly, there is no evidence of mismanagement whatsoever, regardless of the insinuations. Third, they have raised considerably more than $300M and the latest action severely hurts any current fund raising efforts. Our nation is coming out of the worst recession since the great depression and some people can't understand the difficulty they might have had the last few years? Really?. Finally, Your conclusion is not based on fact.

Rover and Popsy - are you sitting next to each other in an internet cafe?

What do you think about my idea to divert Convention Center funds to finish it? How much convention space does the City need?

I am not anti cc like some. I think it is a necessary facility for a city this size and the one planned is not over sized to begin with. One is a state project reflecting the history and population of the entire state and the other benefits mostly our city. Can't move maps funds to it, so I think it is a moot point.

(The tribes maintain the state should fund its own project, because it’s the state that will benefit from the project. According to Timberman, they’ve already kicked in $4.7 million to help cover debt service.)

I wonder why the $4.7 million was not attributed to the "other" funding sources.

That they have already kicked in $4.7 million in debt service payments makes it sound as if it had just been done yesterday, and that more is forthcoming, right around the corner. That is the sum total they have contributed in the past three years.

Rover and Popsy - are you sitting next to each other in an internet cafe?

What do you think about my idea to divert Convention Center funds to finish it? How much convention space does the City need?

To answer your first question, NO. To answer your second question: The streetcar running up to 13th street would be my primary place to divirt because I do not think there will be any federal money in the future to draw on for expansion. My secondary divirsion would be the State Fair exhibition hall. Third choice would be from the convention center because a full convention center is not needed. Cox could provide the meeting rooms and the exhibition hall built in close proximity would be all that is needed. I proposed a plan a month or two ago that would have the exhibition hall being built below ground level on the ford site with a connecting tunnell to Cox and still believe we would get more bang for the buck in going that way.

This not a "nice pretty thing". That is totally trivializing its purpose. Secondly, there is no evidence of mismanagement whatsoever, regardless of the insinuations. Third, they have raised considerably more than $300M and the latest action severely hurts any current fund raising efforts. Our nation is coming out of the worst recession since the great depression and some people can't understand the difficulty they might have had the last few years? Really?. Finally, Your conclusion is not based on fact.

You are wrong.

And the total I listed was not $300m. It was $300,000. That is the total amount they have raised from private, non-tribal sources since 2008. In fact, it's less than $300,000. If you do not believe this figure, you should direct an inquiry to their staff. You should not be so quick to criticize my conclusion when it is you who lacks the facts.

You are wrong.

And the total I listed was not $300m. It was $300,000. That is the total amount they have raised from private, non-tribal sources since 2008. In fact, it's less than $300,000. If you do not believe this figure, you should direct an inquiry to their staff. You should not be so quick to criticize my conclusion when it is you who lacks the facts.

$300M is $300,000, but may be old-school to some. M is roman numeral for 1,000 and used to be used frequently, but not so much now. K is used more now because in metric all the 1,000's start with k....kilogram, kilometer, etc. Generally million is MM.

If you choose to ignore the donations by the tribes, yes, you are correct. But they have contributed about $5 million. Since they are not part of the state, federal or city government contributions, I don't know why they wouldn't be considered private donations. Yes, the argument looks better if they are ignored.

$300M is $300,000, but may be old-school to some. M is roman numeral for 1,000 and used to be used frequently, but not so much now. K is used more now because in metric all the 1,000's start with k....kilogram, kilometer, etc. Generally million is MM.

Roman numerals - lol.

If for some reason this CC would not get finished then I would like for the city leaders to negotiate with the Green Family to locate their Bible Museum to this facility. I heard they are considering Dallas, Washington DC area for this permanent collection to be located in one of those cities. It would be a major coop to land this magnificient collection for OKC and bring an exciting world class museum. IMO Oklahoma has to many Indian attractions and I feel the city/state needs to expand their horizons. Just my two cents. That's all.

I don't feel like we emphasize our unique Indian culture enough. We have the most tribes, but places like New Mexico and Arizona market their Native culture better I think.

If for some reason this CC would not get finished then I would like for the city leaders to negotiate with the Green Family to locate their Bible Museum to this facility. I heard they are considering Dallas, Washington DC area for this permanent collection to be located in one of those cities. It would be a major coop to land this magnificient collection for OKC and bring an exciting world class museum. IMO Oklahoma has to many Indian attractions and I feel the city/state needs to expand their horizons. Just my two cents. That's all.

That is a really good idea. In fact, that is a great idea.

If for some reason this CC would not get finished then I would like for the city leaders to negotiate with the Green Family to locate their Bible Museum to this facility. I heard they are considering Dallas, Washington DC area for this permanent collection to be located in one of those cities. It would be a major coop to land this magnificient collection for OKC and bring an exciting world class museum. IMO Oklahoma has to many Indian attractions and I feel the city/state needs to expand their horizons. Just my two cents. That's all.

If memory serves, OKC would not be considered by the Greens, notwithstanding living here. They want the collection easily accessible to researchers as I recall from an earlier news report, ergo, near a DFW type air service, not a WRWA air service.

If memory serves, OKC would not be considered by the Greens, notwithstanding living here. They want the collection easily accessible to researchers as I recall from an earlier news report, ergo, near a DFW type air service, not a WRWA air service.

That was before a partially built world class facility in a prime high-profile site became available.

That was before a partially built world class facility in a prime high-profile site became available.

Wrong, Kerry. I'm very familiar with what's happening with that museum project and money and a world class facility won't get it to OKC.

Wrong, Kerry. I'm very familiar with what's happening with that museum project and money and a world class facility won't get it to OKC.

That is too bad then.

That is why I suggested a casino district along the river from I-35 to I-40. Of course there would have to be some conditions to make it acceptable for me.

1. Non-smoking only
2. Full casino gaming/racebook/etc
3. A limit on the number of slot machines
4. Casino has to be on water
5. Open to any gaming company (not just Indians)
6. Tulsa would want a similar district.

This will not happen. The reason is not because it fails to make sense from a feasibility standpoint. A casino inside OKC would be a boon for a tribe. But a tribal casino can only operate on their former reservation lands. No tribe has a valid right to claim OKC as their own former reservation territory, OKC was in the unassigned lands. So for this reason no tribe is allowed to operate a tribal casino inside OKC.

Riverwind, Goldsby Gaming Center and Newcastle Gaming are just to the south of the South Canadian River. Those tribes tried to get as close as they possibly could to OKC. Those locations are as close as they can possibly get to OKC. South of the river is former reservation lands, north of the river is former unassigned lands.

But there is Remington Park and that is owned by the Chickasaw Nation. Remington Park is not run as a tribal casino. It is run as it was before the purchase by the Chickasaw nation. Only Remington Park and one other horseracing facility in the state were allowed to be non-tribal gaming facilities. There is limit on the number of gaming machines they can operate.

Another reason why a casino in OKC won't happen is a casino district is against the gaming compacts the state has with the tribes. Here is part of an actual gaming compact, the one between the state and the Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes. All gaming compacts are similar.


E. In consideration for the covenants and agreements contained herein, the state agrees that it will not, during the term of this Compact, permit the nontribal operation of any machines or devices to play covered games or electronic or mechanical gaming devices otherwise presently prohibited by law within the state in excess of the number and outside of the designated locations authorized by the State-Tribal Gaming Act. The state recognizes the importance of this provision to the tribe and agrees, in the event of a breach of this provision by the state, to require any nontribal entity which operates any such devices or machines in excess of such number or outside of the designated location to remit to the state at least quarterly no less than fifty percent (50%) of any increase in the entities’ adjusted gross revenues following the addition of such excess machines. The state further agrees to remit at least quarterly to eligible tribes, as liquidated damages, a sum equal to fifty percent (50%) of any increase in the entities' adjusted gross revenues following the addition of such excess machines. For purposes of this Part, "eligible tribes" means those tribes which have entered into this Compact and are operating gaming pursuant to this Compact within forty-five (45) miles of an entity which is operating covered game machines in excess of the number authorized by, or outside of the location designated by, the State-Tribal Gaming Act. Such liquidated damages shall be allocated pro rata to eligible tribes based on the number of covered game machines operated by each Eligible Tribe in the time period when such adjusted gross revenues were generated.

So any casino operation that opens up will have to pay 50% of their adjusted gross revenues which in this case has been defined as revenues minus payouts as prizes. So half of a casino's realistic operating revenue goes as a penalty to the state with no time limit on when such provision will end. Well, that's not totally true...this particular gaming compact is valid for 15 years but it will be renewed with the same language after the 15 years is up.

The Tribes were very smart to include language in their gaming compacts that gives them exclusivity. But the State got the lottery and the racetracks were allowed to have some gaming machines out of the deal. A casino inside OKC limits just won't be happening.

The Shawnee Tribe did propose a casino along I-35 in OKC. But the Dept. of Interior has turned down that request and will continue to turn down any similar request because it's illegal. The Seminole Tribe talked about buying Downtown Airpark but that didn't happen. Any tribe can do all the talking they want...it just isn't going to happen.

So the state lets the Indians run a casino monopoly while the State picks up the $100 million price of the Indian Heritage Center. The State got screwed. Shut it down now.

So the state lets the Indians run a casino monopoly while the State picks up the $100 million price of the Indian Heritage Center. The State got screwed. Shut it down now.

Nope not a monopoly at all. There are over 20 different, key word here is DIFFERENT, tribes that have casinos that compete with each other.

The state got the lottery out of the deal. It's not like they get the big goose egg out of the deal. One more thing...it will be the city who will be reaping the benefits of the tourists dollars and increased tax revenue that will come into town when the center is complete.

And the state approached the tribes about opening the Center, not the other way around.

How do you figure the State got the lottery out of the deal. Did the State have some kind of previous agreement that prevented them from starting a lottery? I wonder if the gaming law has been test under the "equal protection" clause. States cannot enter into treaties either. I know this is a whole different dicussion but I wonder how legal these Indian gaming laws are.

How do you figure the State got the lottery out of the deal. Did the State have some kind of previous agreement that prevented them from starting a lottery? I wonder if the gaming law has been test under the "equal protection" clause. States cannot enter into treaties either. I know this is a whole different dicussion but I wonder how legal these Indian gaming laws are.

I am sure they were just made up and ignored by the federal government and the state. Nobody looked at them or considered the legality. That's just the way it is done. It is a big conspiracy because the Native Americans have huge political clout and no one wants to cross them.

Sarcasm intended.

Your right Rover, every law ever passed was Constitutional. I don't even see why we have a Supreme Court.

Sarcasm intended.

Your right Rover, every law ever passed was Constitutional. I don't even see why we have a Supreme Court.

Sarcasm intended.

You know, now that I think about it you are correct. Many of the past deals with the Native American tribes were dishonest and unlawful. Taking the land, moving them cross country at great expense of lives, renigging on our treaties with them. Gosh, maybe that is the story so many here are afraid will be told at the new center.

You know, now that I think about it you are correct. Many of the past deals with the Native American tribes were dishonest and unlawful. Taking the land, moving them cross country at great expense of lives, renigging on our treaties with them. Gosh, maybe that is the story so many here are afraid will be told at the new center.

So this is being built for 'white guilt'. This info is already covered at the numerous existing tribal heritage sites all over the country. Why do you think the State can tell the story any better than the Indians themselves can?

So this is being built for 'white guilt'. This info is already covered at the numerous existing tribal heritage sites all over the country. Why do you think the State can tell the story any better than the Indians themselves can?

Maybe because Oklahoma itself is the current home to 29 different tribes...some native and many brought here. It is the mosaic of the different tribes and cultures and the whole picture...not just one tribe at a time. It is about an important part of the Oklahoma history that should be on display. The OK history museum as it stands does not tell this story in depth nor does it have the room or facilities to do it.

As for the "white guilt" you toss out there...that is a favorite way of saying that you want to re-write the history books and forget about it. It usually makes some people feel better to ignore it. The entire accurate picture should be painted so it is never repeated again. I am of German heritage. I am not proud of the Nazi reign, nor do I feel guilty for something done before I was born and done in a far off country, but I don't want its story buried. Future generations need to know and learn from it.

What if the Nazi built a tribute to the Jews that the Jews didn't want, but the Nazis built it anyhow and the Jews didn't want to pay for it, but the Nazi told them they should pony up their share?

What if the Nazi built a tribute to the Jews that the Jews didn't want, but the Nazis built it anyhow and the Jews didn't want to pay for it, but the Nazi told them they should pony up their share?

You should go to the Holocaust Museum in Washington. There are many tributes to the brave Jews and tragic victims around the world. Many of the wronged and displaced Jews of WWII became an important part of the American cultural fabric, so the US museum is important. Where I draw the line is if the Germans refused to build something that explained and showed the real history, or skewed the story to cater to bigotry or ignorance.

I have been to cultural and historical museums all over the world that celebrate their citizens, their history and their unique culture. They are important in telling the story for the rest of the world to witness. That is why I feel strongly about this being built. Visitors will not spend a week traveling all over the state to visit their various individual sites, but they will go to this museum and spend an afternoon or a day and learn something significant.

My consternation with this project is this: how can they accurately represent the history & culture of 39 distinct tribes under one roof? Seems to me the best they can hope to achieve is a summary and cursory representation that IMO will leave visitors underserved. If that's their intent, fine.

If we can back away from the immediate financing issues and look at the bigger picture, it's pretty clear that the most unique thing about Oklahoma's culture -- the history and continued influence of the American Indian -- is not prominent to a casual visitor; or even the average citizen, for that matter. At least this center attempts to address that on a large, ambitious scale.

The funding and backing has been suspect from the beginning but the concept and idea are solid and very important to the entire state. It's merely time to take a hard look at how it can be finished in a responsible manner.

And a lot of this rhetoric about wasting money is silly because going into this everyone knew the price tag. Yes, estimates have gone up but that in itself is not unusual or cause for outrage. Politicians need to stop posturing and start figuring out how to make this thing work. It really is needed to help separate Oklahoma from everywhere else and this culture is the one thing that truly makes us unique. You don't get an appreciation for that with the scattered tribes and casinos.

My consternation with this project is this: how can they accurately represent the history & culture of 39 distinct tribes under one roof? Seems to me the best they can hope to achieve is a summary and cursory representation that IMO will leave visitors underserved. If that's their intent, fine.

I think the story is the weaving of the cultures and how they got here. It is the fact that some were native and some were forced here. It is that they have integrated several cultures and with the arriving Euros to make up this great state. It is the fact that most of the world thinks Native Americans are like a single entity. The fact there are 29 or 39 or whatever number of tribes here is quite a story in and of itself.

Can this center enlighten and educate....ABSOLUTELY. It may even surprise many of us who have lived here our whole lives and are unaware of the the richness around us. I think it will make all us Oklahomans more proud.

If people then want to know more about the individual tribes, their history and culture, then they can go to the individual tribal heritage centers. Both serve their unique functions and should work in a complementary fashion.

Personally, I would be much more interested in going to a large museum with displays/information about all the tribes and the collected history of how they got to Oklahoma and their impact on the state... Then going to a bunch of separate tribal locations.

The plan is to have lots of exhibits and information, which is why the place is so darn big. And look at it from a tourist's perspective: it would be a very cool experience to understand this aspect of U.S. and Oklahoma history.

Think about this: if someone visited from out of state, where would you take them that would be considered unique to Oklahoma? Bricktown is great but there are tons of urban entertainment districts. We now have some nice parks and museums and a fantastic zoo... Yet none of those things are even close to being one-of-a-kind.

There would simply be nothing like this anywhere else in the world. And I'm sure it would be done in a way to honor and be respectful of the various tribes. It may also serve as a springboard for people to go further afield and visit some of the reservations.

We can agree to disagree, I'm cool with that, but...

There's no way they can go into much depth on any one of the 39 tribes without running the risk of favoring one tribe over another. The problem they will have is what to omit, not what to include.

For someone visiting out of state wanting a truly unique Oklahoma experience, I'd take them to Osage County and see the tallgrass prairie preserve w/ bison, then to the Osage tribal capital in Pawhuska and see the tribal museum and the County historical museum (home of America's first Boy Scout troop), then over to Woolaroc, then over to Bartlesville and see the state's first oil well and Price Tower, Frank Lloyd Wright's only skyscraper. All of those one-of-a-kind.

In central OK, the only thing I can think of as historically significant, representative of Oklahoma, and unique is Route 66 and the Land Run, so I guess I'd take them to the state historical museum then to Guthrie.

We can agree to disagree, I'm cool with that, but...

There's no way they can go into much depth on any one of the 39 tribes without running the risk of favoring one tribe over another. The problem they will have is what to omit, not what to include.

For someone visiting out of state wanting a truly unique Oklahoma experience, I'd take them to Osage County and see the tallgrass prairie preserve w/ bison, then to the Osage tribal capital in Pawhuska and see the tribal museum and the County historical museum (home of America's first Boy Scout troop), then over to Woolaroc, then over to Bartlesville and see the state's first oil well and Price Tower, Frank Lloyd Wright's only skyscraper. All of those one-of-a-kind.

In central OK, the only thing I can think of as historically significant, representative of Oklahoma, and unique is Route 66 and the Land Run, so I guess I'd take them to the state historical museum then to Guthrie.

I've never had a visitor from overseas willing to spend time traveling to various distant parts of the state to see things they don't even know exist. However, MANY want to go to the Western Heritage Museum and see the "cowboy stuff".

Yeah, but "cowboy stuff" isn't unique to OK.

Actually Indians aren't unique to OK either, it's just we have more than any other state today since OK was once thought of as a wasteland and a good place to force Indians to live from back east. Ever watched the show, "America before Columbus"? The entire western hemisphere was populated with indigenous peoples.

I don't see the AICC as an 'us vs. them' situation. There have been many who claimed that it would 'hurt the indian tribes', or 'it would only benefit the state, so why should I donate to it'.

What everyone is failing to realize is this - we are trying to build a world class museum and heritage center that will showcase Oklahoma's Native peoples IN ONE PLACE....... This museum complex would give people a very good 'taste' of what it means to be American Indian and Oklahoman, it would celebrate common native culture - which in most reality is quite similar from tribe to tribe anyways (and this speaking from a tribal number Cherokee, in part). ....

The point is, have the AICC available to DRAW tourists to the state, EXPOSE people who are here for other reasons, and if they want to see/learn more about a particular tribe - SHOW them where they can go to learn/see/DO more. The museum is not intended to be the ONLY place to come for Indian or take away from reservations, it is a place to DRAW people TO OKLAHOMA/OKC.

People who come to OKC, the museum is a must see attraction. If they want to see more, or do more, then they can go to a reservation. But if they don't have that much time, at least they were able to go and experience Indian Culture while in OKC. ..... This is not difficult for me to see, and therefore I think OKC should get behind this and get it built first class.

My consternation with this project is this: how can they accurately represent the history & culture of 39 distinct tribes under one roof? Seems to me the best they can hope to achieve is a summary and cursory representation that IMO will leave visitors underserved. If that's their intent, fine.

That's true for most museums unless it is a very limited subject like our banjo museum.

I think the general subject matter of Native Americans in Oklahoma is enough to fill 5 museums this size without going into tribal specifics, and unique characteristics. The earliest Paleo and Archaic Natives lived and traveled through the area, and eventually became more distinct groups of people, including the Plains Indians in the west and the Woodland to Caddo/Mississippian Indians in the east. Add to that declining populations, smaller tribal entities, and eventual disruption of the entire area by the forced removal of mostly southeastern tribes. Forced acculturation programs by the Federal Government, the eventual taking away of the land by settlers, and the eventual transformation of roles and empowerment by the tribes tells a tale quite unique to the state of Oklahoma.

I think trying to tell the tale more coherently with visuals, artifacts, and stories is worth the money to complete the museum.

I have relatives in from Seattle, wish the museum was open!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps with enough pushing, they can get Inhofe to try to sneak in an earmark to help with funding... I know Coburn won't do it out of a matter of principle, but Inhofe is a GOP ranking member on a committee.

Inhofe won't push for money for OKC and if he did, Coburn would make sure it didn't happen. Remember we couldn't get support for streetcars before. We sure won't get Federal money for a museum from these guys.

I think we need to think more local, guys. The feds have already contributed, so we need OKC's business community to step up.

I wouldn't think it would be too hard, once the Chamber got behind this. It would be OKC's #1 World Class museum/attraction, wouldn't OKC's business community want to ensure they have that showcase?

Why don't we FOR ONCE shoot for the stars and give tourists the FULL VISITOR'S EXPERIENCE when they come to OKC. .... - that's what Big League Cities do. The ROI on $90M or whatever is needed to finish the job would be priceless and add to OKC (with us having more to offer/show than JUST the Thunder, MGB, Cowboy Museum, OKC Memorial, and Bricktown).

Again, give the people/visitors what they want, 'a one stop DESTINATION in Oklahoma City that showcases Oklahoma's unique Indian culture'. A Smithsonian level Indian Museum, in the largest city in Indian Territory. ..... If people want to see/experience more/specifics, then they can go to individual tribal lands. .....

I think we might be better served asking the feds/state for Operationa Funding.

It would be nice to have someone get behind this. This is precisely the sort of thing we need to be on pace with the completion of the convention center. It's one more thing we can use to advertise "how much there is to do in Oklahoma City" when we're trying to pull in bigger conventions. Then, if the Chamber and business people who are so sure the convention center needs to be done right away could figure a way for us to get retail downtown somewhere, refurbishing buildings on in Bricktown on Main and perhaps giving incentives being the simplest perhaps, we wouldn't sound ridiculous thinking we could attract bigger conventions.

great points, betts.

though I disagree with the likely notion that may follow - that the CC needs to be located in E. Bricktown BECAUSE we have the AICC nearby. ....

Orlando is one of the biggest convention areas in the country. You have to commute to get to all shopping, dining and entertainment areas. EVERYTHING doesn't have to be next door or across the street. Look at McCormick in Chicago, or even the Javits Center, or the Anaheim Convention Center, or Las Vegas.

It would be nice to have someone get behind this. This is precisely the sort of thing we need to be on pace with the completion of the convention center. ...

Hmmm, I can think of one company that is hoping to receive a 30 mil subsidy for relocation of a substation.
Perhaps now, with that seemingly in doubt, might be a good time to step up and play nice. No, it is not a city issue, but the company is not a limited to the city company either. Jus' spitballin', that's all.

Orlando is one of the biggest convention areas in the country. You have to commute to get to all shopping, dining and entertainment areas. EVERYTHING doesn't have to be next door or across the street. Look at McCormick in Chicago, or even the Javits Center, or the Anaheim Convention Center, or Las Vegas.

Can't speak to the others you mentioned but the Las Vegas Convention Center is next door to the Hilton and one of the Monorail stops that connect to the larger Strip properties. Can catch the Monorail with a nominally priced 24 or 48 hour unlimited pass and be in relatively close proximity to most of what the Strip has to offer. Be it gambling, entertainment, shopping etc.

Can't speak to the others you mentioned but the Las Vegas Convention Center is next door to the Hilton and one of the Monorail stops that connect to the larger Strip properties. Can catch the Monorail with a nominally priced 24 or 48 hour unlimited pass and be in relatively close proximity to most of what the Strip has to offer. Be it gambling, entertainment, shopping etc.

Larry, that's what he meant by you have to commute to get there. It can be done but it's not next door.

There isn't any need for it to be next door because they have the infrastructure to compensate. Which costs less, paying a bit more for land that is "right next door" or paying for the Mass Trans element to get people around? Doesn't this go back to the whole argument of Urban vs. Suburban planning? It is the difference between the "Urban" downtown casinos on the 5 blocks of Fremont and the "suburban" mega resort casinos on the multi-mile (4.2) Strip.

There isn't any need for it to be next door because they have the infrastructure to compensate. Which costs less, paying a bit more for land that is "right next door" or paying for the Mass Trans element to get people around? Doesn't this go back to the whole argument of Urban vs. Suburban planning? It is the difference between the "Urban" downtown casinos on the 5 blocks of Fremont and the "suburban" mega resort casinos on the multi-mile (4.2) Strip.

That's exactly the point, Larry. I think we are in basic agreement. I see no advantage to the Ford Center site. It's next to a park and that's about it.

Detour ahead

Budgetary hand-wringing puts the partially constructed American Indian center in limbo.

http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-11910-detour-ahead.html

Detour ahead

Budgetary hand-wringing puts the partially constructed American Indian center in limbo.

http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-11910-detour-ahead.html

Looks like they are trying to "shake down" the casinos...Jesse Jackson did it all the time...

any new updates on the center?

any new updates on the center?

One take, though certainly not the only take, is the limbo status will exist until Tulsa's POP CULTURE MUSEUM is assured funding.

A similar argument could be made on behalf of folk tired of the whole ME mess and praying a nicer facility might aid in restoring its reputation back to the Fred Jordan days. (mini personal rant - If ever there was a case to be made to support human cloning, he'd be a whale of a poster child.)

It will be in limbo until some of our uber conservatives in the state legislature realize what a state treasure this can be and what the real cost of their delays due to ideology is.

I believe their current construction contracts were due to finish this month, so construction will soon stall if it hasn't already.

Construction activiy has dwindled way back. Soon the gates will be locked and they probably won't even have security 24/7 which they should.

wow just wow, its sad. Maybe hopefully they try to sell it or create it into something else that would make the city shine? Oklahoma City Aquarium????? I can see it now water taxi rides up and down the river fine dining and the okc Aquarium along with all the other water sports up and down the river!!!

I'm sure it will get finished in some fashion.

This is a state project and they already have tons of money invested. It's just become a political football.