This is great news, hopefully they can get the matching donations.

This museum will be the most sophisticated, world-class museum in the state. It is disheartening to see opposition to it, especially from some of the tribes themselves.
I've been unaware of tribal opposition. Which ones?

I am honestly unsure of which specific ones, I just remember reading about it.

I am honestly unsure of which specific ones, I just remember reading about it.

Could it be because they want tourists to go to their tribal museums? The main tribes and their lands in Oklahoma:
http://thomaslegion.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/oklahoma_territory.jpg

That's what someone mentioned on the NewsOk comments section now that I remember. He said the Chickasaws in particular would not like it because they opened a new center in Sulphur last year. However, I have seen pictures on the museum's Facebook page of Chickasaw governor Bill Annoatuby at meetings, so perhaps they don't openly oppose the museum, but some just recognize that it could detract from their own tourism efforts.

The Chickasaws are big supporters of the OKC project and actually handle the Okc project website.

Maybe none of them actually oppose it then, which would be great. I guess I shouldn't have said that any did.

Perhaps the gist of the frustration that I have read about is that they aren't contributing most of the cost as opposed to the state.

I think that is where the perceived tribal "opposition" lies, from the lack of contributions from the tribes (voting with their pocketbook sort of thing).

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=61&articleid=20110516_11_A11_CUTLIN409229

Opinions???

lol the comments are funny.

According to Tulsans, Tulsa is either way more cosmopolitan, more urban, better skyline than that "flat cow town" OKC, or they are our "unwanted stepchild". Which is it?

Poor Tulsa, I thought you were much more wealthy and sophisticated than dirty ole' OKC. You can't find funding elsewhere?

No kidding... besides the AICC has a wide appeal at least... can't Tulsa come up with a better museum idea than one that is sooooo Okie-centric (especially at that price)... I mean there is a place for that kind of museum but we already have the Oklahoma History Center with exhibits that focus on music and pop culture.

Hate to see OKC and Tulsa bicker. It is better for both cities when the other is prospering. I'm originally from Tulsa and now live in OKC. Each city has their positives and negatives. I wish both projects would come to fruition.

No kidding... besides the AICC has a wide appeal at least... can't Tulsa come up with a better museum idea than one that is sooooo Okie-centric (especially at that price)... I mean there is a place for that kind of museum but we already have the Oklahoma History Center with exhibits that focus on music and pop culture.

Tulsa was chosen as the site of the museum, the city didn't necessarily hatch the idea.

Hate to see OKC and Tulsa bicker. It is better for both cities when the other is prospering. I'm originally from Tulsa and now live in OKC. Each city has their positives and negatives. I wish both projects would come to fruition.

Yes, let's leave the bickering for Texas.

Poor Tulsa, I thought you were much more wealthy and sophisticated than dirty ole' OKC. You can't find funding elsewhere?

Why should we have to? It's an Oklahoma History Center project...sponsored by the state. Riddle me this... If a Tulsa project, in order to be completed, had to go to the legislature FOUR different times for funding because they were unable to raise private funds, and as a result prevented an important project in OKC from being funded, how well would that go over? Not well, I suspect. About as well as this is going over in Tulsa.

In all fairness, it was and usually is always the Tulsa people who start the bickering with there pod shots at the 'cowntown' or their opinion of their self proclaimed cosmopolitanism, OR the 'Tulsa is the bastard of OK' mentality. ...

I almost never see any OKC people posting anything negative about Tulsa when there is a Tulsa story or development. But they always seem to have something to say about: Tulsa funding OKC's development, OKC cowntown and dirty, Tulsa superior, or Tulsa never getting anything (and that is OKC's fault). One would only expect OKC people to stand up and defend their city, and it is actually great to now see people stand up for OKC because that WASNT the case pre-1990.

Tulsa has a lot going for it, and is quite the organic city compared to OKC's planned, Big City developments. I'm not sure why they feel the need to stab at OKC no matter what; I don't see the same from OKC. In fact, it seems as if OKC people are quite proud of their city and it's direction overall - and really don't care much about anybody else (or at least, not anybody smaller).

Just goes to show me, there are some perhaps many in Tulsa - who have ***** envy (XXX rated term) against OKC. They have a huge inferiority complex with OKC, not really sure why since they are quite pretty and should team up with big brother to control this state in a urban/metro way. ...

Chautaugua - that happens all the time. Oklahoma is run by the RURAL and to some extent, tribal interests. OKC misses out on many state projects despite being the capital. It usually always comes out to necessity, and it is usually underfunded, downsized, if it happens at all. Look at the capital dome, for example - which had to get significant private funding to be completed as designed. Look at the crosstown and state highways in OKC.

I agree, that Tulsa should receive state funding for state projects. And if it is an Oklahoma History Museum branch, then it should be sponsored by the state. But to think that it should be completely FULLY funded by only the state, using OKC state development as an assumption - that is quite preposterous, since it is not always true for even OKC despite being capital and largest city.

OKC is the capital and largest city; therefore OKC should have the most state funded facilities - you think?

Regarding the AICC in OKC, it is not fully funded by the state. There is a significant mix of participation and there will be significant private participation to complete it.

just for the record, I think the pop museum is a cool idea AND I hope there is someway it can be built IN TULSA. I think it would do well there, and should be part of the Oklahoma Museum of History (like a smithsonian umbrella).

But like most museums, I would mostly expect the state to staff and operate it, private/local should bear most the construction.

There is so much inaccurate information in this thread that I hope to dispel. First and foremost, it is not a tribal project! It is a state project! In 1994 a state agency was created with the sole purpose of developing and operating the project because there were a number of studies that demonstrated economic potential. Highlighting and maximizing one of Oklahoma's unique resources - the presence of 39 distinct nations within one state boundary. It will be an interpretive museum whose subject matter is about American Indian cultures. However, all of these new state tax revenues will go to the State of Oklahoma, not to the AICCM and not to the tribes. The tribes have participated both financially and with interpretive content. The project is adjacent to the emerging retail and entertainment district known as the Bricktown area, and builds on the synergy being created by the City’s Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS) program, which is designed to create new and upgraded sports, recreation, entertainment, cultural and convention facilities in Oklahoma City. The American Indian Cultural Center and Museum is a critical anchor attraction for the entire state of Oklahoma.

Hot Rod- For the record, I never suggested the State pay for the entire thing. In fact, BOK has donated the land (valued at 1 million dollars)...and George Kaiser has already pledged 1 million.

There is so much inaccurate information in this thread that I hope to dispel. First and foremost, it is not a tribal project! It is a state project! In 1994 a state agency was created with the sole purpose of developing and operating the project because there were a number of studies that demonstrated economic potential. Highlighting and maximizing one of Oklahoma's unique resources - the presence of 39 distinct nations within one state boundary. It will be an interpretive museum whose subject matter is about American Indian cultures. However, all of these new state tax revenues will go to the State of Oklahoma, not to the AICCM and not to the tribes. The tribes have participated both financially and with interpretive content.

Thanks for the input and welcome to the forum.

I hope you can continue to shine light on the project. You will find a lot of supporters here.

As such a young state, Oklahoma doesn't have a deep history or cultural heritage. However, the 39 nations that reside here do. To understand our state and the richness of its culture it is important we understand and promote the incredible history and culture that makes up a significant portion of its fabric. I think that not only is it a magnetic museum opportunity but an opportunity for explaining our diversity to any business thinking of locating or re-locating here. If finished out right it will be a proper display of our citizens' history and an economic opportunity at the same time.

I hope the provencialism of a few state legislators doesn't squirrel another great opportunity for the state as a whole.

If I was a member of one of these tribes I would be more than a little insulted by this museum. I wonder if there are other groups the state can exploit for financial gain.

^^^Exactly. Why would I, member of [insert tribe name here], want to contribute financially to a white man's exploit of my heritage and not get a cut of the proceeds??? This isn't the 18th century!

Not to raise the dead or bring up the past, but...... how would educating and showcasing the Amercian Indian and it's beautiful culture be exploiting the tribes of Oklahoma? Jump to the present and look at the casino's. Who is having the last laugh?

I hope the provencialism of a few state legislators doesn't squirrel another great opportunity for the state as a whole.

Is provincialism the only reason, in your mind, for opposing the imposition of $40 million in additional debt?

Not to raise the dead or bring up the past, but...... how would educating and showcasing the Amercian Indian and it's beautiful culture be exploiting the tribes of Oklahoma? Jump to the present and look at the casino's. Who is having the last laugh?

Because of who is doing it. How would you feel if the McVeigh family opened up a museum downtown so they could make a few bucks? If the Indian tribes want to (and many of than have) open their own cultural centers fine - but the State shouldn't be doing it.

Several months ago/several pages back...I posted that I was against this project for the sole reason that it will lack authenticity. If you want the real deal, then go to the tribal capitals scattered around Oklahoma (Tahlequah, Pawhuska, Anadarko, Sulphur, etc.) and visit their exhibits designed and run by members of that tribe. I won't visit the AICC going up on the OK River b/c it will be a mish-mash of artifacts/exhibits that will inevitably water down each tribe's individuality to the point where they all look about alike, and that's too bad b/c they each have unique history & traditions.

I still think this will be a nice tourist attraction for OKC and Oklahoma. It will be more for those coming to OKC and looking for a "general" idea of the state's Native American culture and its history. It's more of an overview, and the various tribal museums scattered around the state tell each tribe's individual story. The Chickasaw Cultural Center in Sulphur is fantastic and well-worth a visit, about an hour south of OKC.

If I was a member of one of these tribes I would be more than a little insulted by this museum. I wonder if there are other groups the state can exploit for financial gain.

Kerry, what a ridiculous statement. You actually think the state is involved for financial gain? That is really laughable. Other than drawing some tourists which might generate a little more in taxes the museum will not be a profit center.

If I was a member of one of these tribes I would be more than a little insulted by this museum. I wonder if there are other groups the state can exploit for financial gain.

I have Native American blood and I am not offended in the least. As long as it is an accurate and factual representation (good and bad), I don't see anything wrong with it. As long as it isn't a stereotyped view.

Several months ago/several pages back...I posted that I was against this project for the sole reason that it will lack authenticity. If you want the real deal, then go to the tribal capitals scattered around Oklahoma (Tahlequah, Pawhuska, Anadarko, Sulphur, etc.) and visit their exhibits designed and run by members of that tribe. I won't visit the AICC going up on the OK River b/c it will be a mish-mash of artifacts/exhibits that will inevitably water down each tribe's individuality to the point where they all look about alike, and that's too bad b/c they each have unique history & traditions.

How do you know that? Has the structure of the exhibits been defined? I would probably wait until the museum is open to determine if that is the case or not.

Maybe it will be a mini-exhibit for those tribes that have their own stand alone, tribal run ones. "For more info, please visit__________________." type of thing, that way it can directly generate interest and further their own objectives along with the general awareness raising.

Kerry, what a ridiculous statement. You actually think the state is involved for financial gain? That is really laughable. Other than drawing some tourists which might generate a little more in taxes the museum will not be a profit center.

http://newsok.com/bill-advances-in-oklahoma-legislature-for-american-indian-cultural-center-funding/article/3568612#ixzz1Md20CfOx



“You have a camp that thinks we’ve already spent enough money on this project and we just need to take a step back,” said Sears, chairman of the House Appropriations and Budget Committee.

“You have a component that says I really don’t just want to vote, I think this is a bad year to be voting on bond proposals and borrowing money in such a down economic year, and you have the third camp that simply says I understand all of component one and component two but on the same token ... we’ve started this project and we need to complete it,” Sears said.

“I’m in the third component ... we need to finish this project.”

...

Supporters say it is expected to bring in nearly $7.5 million a year in state tax revenue after it’s completed.


So yes, I think it is about being a profit center. BTW - the rest of that article also has some interesting info like restricting all future state money to actual building and capital improvements. That makes me wonder what past state money has been spent on. For $70 million already spent there is huge lack of anything on the site. Look at the picture in the article - does that look like $70 million worth of construction to you?

Bond Issue dies for Indian museum in Oklahoma (http://www.newsok.com/bond-issue-dies-for-indian-museum-in-oklahoma-city/article/3569105?custom_click=headlines_widget)

This whole museum idea was flawed from the start. The idea of building a tribute to people who don't even want it was stupid. Too bad soooo much money was wasted. Chalk it up to getting a bad card on the river (a little poker lingo). You can't cry over what you already bet, just be glad you didn't lose more by throwing good money after bad. I can't wait for the audit to see where the $70 million went because it sure as heck didn't go to this site. I would be in favor selling what is there to a tribe and letting them open a casino with the state getting a cut to pay back the $70 million already spent.


oops sorry, total cost so far is $90 million. How the hell did they spend $90 million on that mound of dirt and minimal construction? The land was free.

From the TW article:


“There is a tremendous investment out there, and the intention is not to walk away forever, but we do want to make sure we evaluate all of our options going forward,” Brejcha said.

Alex Weintz, a spokesman for Gov. Mary Fallin, said the state continues to look for ways to complete the partially built facility at Interstate 35 and Interstate 40 in Oklahoma City.

He said the state is looking at options other than bonds.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=336&articleid=20110518_336_0_OLHMIY926985

It also said there will be significant additional costs by waiting, should they end up moving forward again.

The state needs to cut the loses now and find a way to get the money back. Also, someone needs to go to jail for how much money was wasted on this.

So is the indian museum offically dead? If so, i wonder if the state could sell what has already been developed or creat it into something different like sea life museum or river aquarium with boat rides along the river, kinda like the tunica river museum

^^^Exactly. Why would I, member of [insert tribe name here], want to contribute financially to a white man's exploit of my heritage and not get a cut of the proceeds??? This isn't the 18th century!

Is there not any way to make the Indian tribes perceive this as a more equitable opportunity for them? Them stepping up and completing this is still what needs to happen. They've covered the state in shoddy Indian casinos and event centers which are raking in absolutely incredible profits, they can at least finish this museum.

I'm trying to break down the funding thus far and here is the best I can determine from what has been reported:

Total Spent to date: $90M
State: $66.3M
Federal: $14.5M
OKC: $5M (plus land)
Private / Tribal: $4.2M

Total outlay needed to complete now estimated at $177M versus original $143M. So, if you take the $177M needed and subtract out the $90M, that leaves $87M still required to finish the museum piece. The bonds were to have provided $40M but only if they could obtain the same amount in private/tribal funding.

Looking at these numbers, you can see how little the tribes have invested to date.

Is there not any way to make the Indian tribes perceive this as a more equitable opportunity for them? Them stepping up and completing this is still what needs to happen. They've covered the state in shoddy Indian casinos and event centers which are raking in absolutely incredible profits, they can at least finish this museum.

Most of the tribes already have their own cultural centers. As much as I hate casinos, it is probably the only way to get the $70 million back. Just create a casino district on the south side of the river from I-35 to the Reno bridge and get it over with.

Looking at these numbers, you can see how little the tribes have invested to date.

That is because this is not being built by them for them - this was 'white guilt' who saw a way to make some bucks while making everyone think they care about Indians. I still say someone needs to be kicked in the nads over this.

How would you feel if someone started the OKCTalk Museum and half way through they said we have to come with half the remaining funding? I would laugh in their face.

This whole thing was actually initiated by Chickasaw Nation Gov. Bill Anoatubby who lobbied to form the nonprofit for the specific purpose of building one big attraction that would showcase the American Indian culture in Oklahoma.

He's been the driving force behind this and has worked to at least get support from the other tribes, but it seems the tribe support should have come first. On the other hand, Anoatubby probably knew they would be at best lukewarm to this idea due to want to draw people to their individual projects.


I believe the idea is still a good one but only if the tribes can get behind it.

This whole thing was actually initiated by Chickasaw Nation Gov. Bill Anoatubby who lobbied to form the nonprofit for the specific purpose of building one big attraction that would showcase the American Indian culture in Oklahoma.

He's been the driving force behind this and has worked to at least get support from the other tribes, but it seems the tribe support should have come first. On the other hand, Anoatubby probably knew they would be at best lukewarm to this idea due to want to draw people to their individual projects.


I believe the idea is still a good one but only if the tribes can get behind it.

So now we have a name. Where does the nad kicking line form?

Is the project now dead? Nah, I doubt it.
Is there going to have to be some swapping of votes down the road to get enough folks on board next year? Probably, but that's just politics.
Did the R factor in the Senate simply blow off the support they knew existed with their R governor, who already isn't real happy they pretty much treated her budget with no move love than if it were a D budget submission? Close. And it wasn't the first time, nor will it be the last.
Gotta love this state sometimes.

Is there not any way to make the Indian tribes perceive this as a more equitable opportunity for them? Them stepping up and completing this is still what needs to happen. They've covered the state in shoddy Indian casinos and event centers which are raking in absolutely incredible profits, they can at least finish this museum.

This is about the state of Oklahoma, not the individual tribes. The truth is the tribes don't wield any real political clout with the in-powers. And the in-powers believe you build greatness by hiding in your cave and saving all your nuts.

This is about the state of Oklahoma, not the individual tribes. The truth is the tribes don't wield any real political clout with the in-powers. And the in-powers believe you build greatness by hiding in your cave and saving all your nuts.

And taking an inordinate level of interest in what those not in power do with theirs, so to speak.

That is because this is not being built by them for them - this was 'white guilt' who saw a way to make some bucks while making everyone think they care about Indians. I still say someone needs to be kicked in the nads over this.

Kerry, I don't have a clue how you get your ideas. This is a totally cynical, biased idea and I see nothing to support your opinion. I'm am totally in favor of this museum and it has nothing to do with "white guilt". I'm just proud of our Indian heritage and think it should be shared. If a little money comes into the coffers along the way that's good but the idea was totally not about making money in spite of what you may think.

This whole museum idea was flawed from the start. The idea of building a tribute to people who don't even want it was stupid. Too bad soooo much money was wasted. ...


This whole thing was actually initiated by Chickasaw Nation Gov. Bill Anoatubby who lobbied to form the nonprofit for the specific purpose of building one big attraction that would showcase the American Indian culture in Oklahoma. ...

There ya go...and if it gets picked up again, the delay is estimated to cost $10.1M (pure waste). If it doesn't get finished then you have this partially completed project in a very prominent location. Would be like Devon suddenly stopping on their tower and abandoning the project. To demolish what is there, will cost $38.1M.

Which makes more sense, spend $40 million more to complete it (on the taxpayers end) or spend an equal amount demolishing it? Reminds me of the State Fair Speedway where it cost the City more to demo it than to fix the electrical problem. And in the end you don't have racing anymore. Do you want to have spent $100M (mol) and have nothing to show for it?

There ya go...and if it gets picked up again, the delay is estimated to cost $10.1M (pure waste). If it doesn't get finished then you have this partially completed project in a very prominent location. Would be like Devon suddenly stopping on their tower and abandoning the project. To demolish what is there, will cost $38.1M.

Which makes more sense, spend $40 million more to complete it (on the taxpayers end) or spend an equal amount demolishing it? Reminds me of the State Fair Speedway where it cost the City more to demo it than to fix the electrical problem. And in the end you don't have racing anymore. Do you want to have spent $100M (mol) and have nothing to show for it?

That reminds me of the abandoned Corning facility on the west side of OKC. The stark framework has been there for all travelers on I40 to see for years and is not a positive statement for OKC. I'm not really sure what concerns Kerry more, the idea of offending a few of our Indian citizens (and it would be very few) or spending money to complete an unfinished project which would be appreciated for decades to come (which I know is not acceptible if it makes a little money). I suspect he would be complaining even more if there was a study that showed the project might lose money for the state.

What concerns me is the state spending more money on a project that the honorees don't even want and has no way of producing the type of economic benefit the supporters say it will. Like I said earlier, you can't get back money that is already spent, all you can do is prevent further losses. The debt service alone on the money still needed to be borrowed will cost almost as much as the rosie estimates for revenue so there is a good chance the state could lose money on this for an additional 30 years. I also think something shady has gone on with the $90 million already spent on this project and would like to see where it went before another $40 million is spent. There is no way that mound of dirt and minimal construction cost $90 million.

Also, why spend a penny demolishing it? Sell the land and let the new owners demolish it on their own dime. I actaully have a hard time believing it would cost anywhere near $38 million to remove that dirt.

TO me its aperfect location for a quarium or some type of water museum, you can have fun river boat rides, walk into to museum and see the history of okc and the types of native plants animals, fish etc.. the set up is all there. I say if no one wants to what they are currently building then change the pan completely on to soething else.. The property they are on right now can be great for some type of entertainment attraction.

TO me its aperfect location for a quarium or some type of water museum, you can have fun river boat rides, walk into to museum and see the history of okc and the types of native plants animals, fish etc.. the set up is all there. I say if no one wants to what they are currently building then change the pan completely on to soething else.. The property they are on right now can be great for some type of entertainment attraction.

No doubt about it - the City gave away a prime piece of real-estate. Prime!

And someone questioned why I used the word "provencialism" to describe the threat to this museum getting completed. All you have to do is look northeast to know what I am talking about. See today's DO editiorial. They obviously agree.

And we wonder why people think Oklahoman's can't get things done in a world class way. Here is just one more project that could be outstanding that gets derailed from bickering and jealousy and lack of proper oversight.

From the outset, the state and everyone else knew it was going to cost at least $143 million to complete the first phase of this project. The only thing that has changed in the last several years is that figure has grown to $177 million. That's actually pretty typical for a huge project with a longer timeline, as the state only needs to reference the crosstown expressway project. The longer these things drag out, the more they are likely to cost.

So, they knew all the way along more funding would be required. It would have made sense from the beginning to not start the project until there were more firm funding sources, but everyone entered into the additional state allocations knowing the score. The only real change is the $34 million increase in cost and again, that's not horribly surprising.

So why now is everyone pointing fingers and talking about abandoning a project where $90 million has already been spent?

I was initially critical of this project because 1) a huge chunk of the funding was not secured and 2) the general nature of it meant that nobody was really taking ownership and getting behind it.

However, that is all water under the bridge and now we need to find a way to push through and finish the first phase. From that point, there may be the possibility to spin off part of the property to private investors for a hotel or more. But as it sits now, there is too much invested to merely walk away, especially since the people allocating the funding thus far have known all the way along a lot more money would be needed.

For the record...I support the concept of the AICC, and this is not an OKC v. Tulsa thing in terms of that facility. Its that its over budget, off-schedule, under performing in terms of private dollars raised, and it is still being put in line ahead of other viable projects.

maybe if we allow 5 acres of land the project sits on to be made into a casino, and have a auction bid of minimum 40 million for the land, i bet we will have the 40 million or plus within a minute lol, i can see all the tribes pony up money real quick and bid back and forth to have primes casino land

From the outset, the state and everyone else knew it was going to cost at least $143 million to complete the first phase of this project. ...
So, they knew all the way along more funding would be required. ...
So why now is everyone pointing fingers and talking about abandoning a project where $90 million has already been spent?
...

Other than a makeover to a different, and quite bickering, majority at the state governance level, not much (but it's enough to sideline something like this all the same.)

A tanking national economy duirng this time span is also a factor and was the primary reason the State Legislature didn't want to go into more debt.