Look, an individual attending a pow-wow is one thing. But most Native Americans are still poor, often very poor. And for tribes to divert funds that could help tribal members to a project not even directly related to their people is just something that is not going to happen very often. You can think that the tribes are all rich awash in cash from the casinos, but that's not really how it works. Some small Tribes do get rich on casinos, but those aren't Oklahoma tribes. If the Cherokees make a $100 million profit on their casinos in a year it's still only $400 per tribal member. Do you really think that they are then going turn around and give $10 million or something to a musuem 150 miles from Tahlequah? Tribes are correctly focused on helping members of the tribe. It's just how it is.

The center will get some marketing money from the Chickasaws and Choctaws because they have nearby casinos, but that's it.

That's a lot of stereotypes for one post. I'll leave it to a Native American to take issue with all the different things you've typed onto the Internet. Oklahoma City is surrounded by several different Indian nations, has a Native American population of its own, and is at the junction of three major cross-country highways. And it's my understanding the tribes would like to see their culture shared with everybody, not just among themselves.
Now, quiz time folks: what do tourism, horse ranches, chocolate, banking, radio, health care and historic preservation all have in common?

They better finish this thing in OKC.

well they kind of have to, it's not like they can pick up a 90 ft tall mound of dirt and existing structures and move them out of state, especially on a project they have about only 50% funded, if they're having funding issues, they're not going to abandon their to date investments.

That's a lot of stereotypes for one post. I'll leave it to a Native American to take issue with all the different things you've typed onto the Internet. Oklahoma City is surrounded by several different Indian nations, has a Native American population of its own, and is at the junction of three major cross-country highways. And it's my understanding the tribes would like to see their culture shared with everybody, not just among themselves.
Now, quiz time folks: what do tourism, horse ranches, chocolate, banking, radio, health care and historic preservation all have in common?

they are all businesses the tribes are involved with, the chickasaws in particular.

I've questioned the viability of this project from day 1. Meshing tribal culture into one building doesn't make sense. Each tribe is culturally & socially unique. To get a feel for that uniqueness I think you have to go visit each's tribal headquarters/museum. To get a good feel about the Cherokee, you have to go to Tahlequah...for the Osage, visit Pawhuska, etc.

I've questioned the viability of this project from day 1. Meshing tribal culture into one building doesn't make sense. Each tribe is culturally & socially unique. To get a feel for that uniqueness I think you have to go visit each's tribal headquarters/museum. To get a good feel about the Cherokee, you have to go to Tahlequah...for the Osage, visit Pawhuska, etc.

While that sounds great, let's be honest thought - no standard family of 5 is going to go drive around the state of Oklahoma to each museum in their lifetime. While it may bother some to have everything at one place, it makes a lot of sense for OKC visitors and even just showing newer Oklahoma generations about the overall culture.

While that sounds great, let's be honest thought - no standard family of 5 is going to go drive around the state of Oklahoma to each museum in their lifetime. While it may bother some to have everything at one place, it makes a lot of sense for OKC visitors and even just showing newer Oklahoma generations about the overall culture.

Point being it will lack authenticity and I bet if you ask Natives what they think about it, they will say it's for the whites, not them.

Point being it will lack authenticity and I bet if you ask Natives what they think about it, they will say it's for the whites, not them.

I hear you on that, and would understand their concern if that's their thoughts on the issue. My only counter is that this is a chance for recognition on a front and center scale just off a major highway in a major city. Some kid that goes to Edmond North (just throwing out a random school) will never go to northeast Oklahoma small town museum (museum, boring?), but they'll see this huge attraction just outside downtown, and think - "that's cool, I'm gonna check it out." Maybe that will put a desire in them to see more somewhere else.

To get a good feel about the Cherokee, you have to go to Tahlequah

Umm, you have to go to Cherokee, NC.

Point being it will lack authenticity and I bet if you ask Natives what they think about it, they will say it's for the whites, not them.

Even if it was, what would be wrong with that? I'm pretty sure that whites probably need more education on Native American culture than many Native Americans do.

I don't get it. Since when are museums supposed to only be for a specific group or demographic? That sounds backwards to me.

Even if it was, what would be wrong with that? I'm pretty sure that whites probably need more education on Native American culture than many Native Americans do.

I don't get it. Since when are museums supposed to only be for a specific group or demographic? That sounds backwards to me.
Agree 100%.

[QUOTE=BDP;336455]Even if it was, what would be wrong with that? I'm pretty sure that whites probably need more education on Native American culture than many Native Americans do.
QUOTE]

It's like someone wanting authentic mexican food and going to taco bell.

Umm, you have to go to Cherokee, NC.

Umm, no...that's the eastern band.

That's a lot of stereotypes for one post. I'll leave it to a Native American to take issue with all the different things you've typed onto the Internet. Oklahoma City is surrounded by several different Indian nations, has a Native American population of its own, and is at the junction of three major cross-country highways. And it's my understanding the tribes would like to see their culture shared with everybody, not just among themselves.
Now, quiz time folks: what do tourism, horse ranches, chocolate, banking, radio, health care and historic preservation all have in common?

Indian enterprises?

It's like someone wanting authentic mexican food and going to taco bell.

So the exhibits in this museum won't be authentic? How so?

Are they not authentic at the Smithsonian Museum of the American Indian, either?

Point being it will lack authenticity and I bet if you ask Natives what they think about it, they will say it's for the whites, not them.

I'd disagree. I had the priveledge of working as security at the ground blessing ceremony several years ago, I believe back in 2007. Talked to many of the tribe members. They all seemed to be very proud. There were governors there including the famous "Bill Annoatubby" of the Chickasaw Nation, which as pointed out earlier, are also building their own world-class museum near Sulpher. I think the two can co-exist and still be something tribes are proud of.

I don’t questions that tribes are supportive of the center and would like to see it work. They may even help with exhibits and artifacts but as for giving real cash, I don’t see it. A lot of the tribes are pretty broke, Casino revenues are way down and even if they weren’t they have far more programs and needs than they can fund. Tribes simply aren’t going to give a couple million dollars to a museum far outside their national areas for a 150-200 square foot display.

I just hope that the Cultural Center in OKC is better than the one in Cherokee N.C..
I went to the one in Cherokee and felt like the tribe is getting even for past injustice.
It was boreing and no one in my family enjoyed it. It was a tourist trap and a rip off in
my opinion.

I don’t questions that tribes are supportive of the center and would like to see it work. They may even help with exhibits and artifacts but as for giving real cash, I don’t see it. A lot of the tribes are pretty broke, Casino revenues are way down and even if they weren’t they have far more programs and needs than they can fund. Tribes simply aren’t going to give a couple million dollars to a museum far outside their national areas for a 150-200 square foot display.

Three simple points:

1. Doesn't the state have more important priorities as well? You of all people know that, given the lack of funding for Tulsa roads, and now I-44 in Midtown has a massive sinkhole in it.
2. Doesn't OKC have more important priorities? We've put as much money into this thing as the state and I can name off at least 50 neighborhoods that could put that money to far better use, no offense to any Indians.
3. You mention exhibits. (Not a question for Swake) Is there any chance that exhibits are being factored into the enormous cost for this thing? Is that the measly $4 mil from the tribes or would that suggest that more is to come? How much are Indian artifacts even worth, financially??

Perhaps the Indian tribes with casinos could increase their donations.
Dont you think that they have already paid enough?

2% for a project honoring their heritage...yeah we don't want them to commit themselves too much here.

I don’t questions that tribes are supportive of the center and would like to see it work. They may even help with exhibits and artifacts but as for giving real cash, I don’t see it. A lot of the tribes are pretty broke, Casino revenues are way down and even if they weren’t they have far more programs and needs than they can fund. Tribes simply aren’t going to give a couple million dollars to a museum far outside their national areas for a 150-200 square foot display.

There was a recent article that indicated Tribal revenue was way up, so much so, the state is projecting to get $120M from the compacts (as opposed to the $70M they had projected when signed a few years ago (and had fallen way short).

Tribal gaming fees continue to grow for Oklahoma | NewsOK.com (http://www.newsok.com/tribal-gaming-fees-continue-to-grow-for-oklahoma/article/3465693)

There was a recent article that indicated Tribal revenue was way up, so much so, the state is projecting to get $120M from the compacts (as opposed to the $70M they had projected when signed a few years ago (and had fallen way short).

Tribal gaming fees continue to grow for Oklahoma | NewsOK.com (http://www.newsok.com/tribal-gaming-fees-continue-to-grow-for-oklahoma/article/3465693)

Don't confuse us with facts, Larry. LOL

Don't confuse us with facts, Larry. LOL

I misspoke. Tribes have spend a ton of money on always newer and larger gambling halls and have financed those expansions, that financing has to be paid for. Revenue and profit are not the same thing.

Good point. If they can show the tribes that they can make a buck on this thing then they will pour some money into it!

For those interested, here is link to the Chickasaw Cultural Center being referenced. Very nice.

Chickasaw Cultural Center (http://www.chickasawculturalcenter.com/center.html)

Looks very classy.


I've questioned the viability of this project from day 1. Meshing tribal culture into one building doesn't make sense. Each tribe is culturally & socially unique. To get a feel for that uniqueness I think you have to go visit each's tribal headquarters/museum. To get a good feel about the Cherokee, you have to go to Tahlequah...for the Osage, visit Pawhuska, etc.

That's like saying there's no place for an American History Museum in DC because every state has it's own unique history and culture.



It's like someone wanting authentic mexican food and going to taco bell.

That's ridiculous. This is not some Hollywood-ified white guy perspective cowboys and Indians attraction. Will it be general to a wide range of tribes and cultures? Yes. Will it be inauthentic? Definitely not. That's ridiculous.

Well said Jbrown, they act as if it is going to be like this "Twister museum" other posters are proposing. This is a world-class museum and part of the Smithsonian for crying out loud.

To call this like Taco Bell is like calling the Western Heritage Center and Hall of Fame like Frontier City. I guess people don't understand the roll and importance of true museums. OKC is graced with a great oleo of cultures, many rooted in native soil. We should support and celebrate and tell its history properly. I hope they can complete this in a world class way.

I was excited about this project because of its Smithsonian pedigree and all the talented people behind it. But there's an anonymous poster at OKC Talk saying it's nothing special, that's it's the Taco Bell of museums, so my entire outlook is now changed...

I was excited about this project because of its Smithsonian pedigree and all the talented people behind it. But there's an anonymous poster at OKC Talk saying it's nothing special, that's it's the Taco Bell of museums, so my entire outlook is now changed...

Native Americans in general certainly can and hopefully will be proud of this museum. But saying that Tribal governments should support it is a very different question. Think of it like a group is building an Asian Museum in L.A. and is asking the Vietnamese and Afghan governments to take away funding from projects to help their own often very poor people to help fund the Museum because it’s helping to educate people on Asians.

You know, because it’s a worthy project and seeing as Vietnamese and Afghans are Asian they should sacrifice support for their own people to support it. Who knows, it might even have small displays on Vietnam and Afghanistan.

I am not being extreme here, the history, language and culture of the Cherokee and the Osage for example are as different as Afghans and Vietnamese. All they really share is that they are historically from the same continent, and of course were persecuted by the US government.
You have accused me of making generalities when that is all that you see. Your desire to want to see Native Americans as a homogeneous group and ignorance to the vast differences between tribes and peoples is kind of sad coming from a journalist. Your blindness to the economic realities of many of the people that the tribal governments were created to support just compounds this.

I do think that this has potential as a valuable project for the city, and could be good for Native Americans in general. But the tribes aren’t going to give any large amounts of money, and really should not. My problem is that this has long been sold as something that tribes were going to help pay for, when that was never the case. The state has given a lot of money, and the city has given some. Really this is an Oklahoma City project and should be funded as such.

I also question the “talent” of the people behind the project. Very little as been built in relationship to the amount of money that has been funneled into the project already. They had a funding model that was never going to happen and now they want even more from the state at a time when we are laying off teachers? When they were given an emergency $25 million in state money in 2008 the backers said that the rest of the cost of the center would come from $75 million in donations and tribal support, well, that money has never materialized and now they claim that if the state will just give another $43 million they will have another $45 million in donations? Really? From where? The last round of $75 million in donations never happened, what would lead us to believe that this $45 million will happen now? It seems these “talented” backers really aren’t very talented with handling money or attracting donations or having a working business model. More than that I have talked to some of these “talented” people and I have to question their ability to pull this project from an artistic and historical perspective as well.

All of this sounds like it would be a really good topic for a journalist to look into, doesn’t it? But we all know that’s not going to happen.

I guess anything can be made controversial.

This is a chance to make an important contribution to the understanding and appreciation of Native American populations. Yes, they are varied and more complex than people probably know. That is exactly the point. Most people think that all Native Americans share the same culture and backgrounds. This museum has a chance to explain all that and help rid our society of certain ignorance about it. Children will have a chance to go learn and not repeat the stereotypes of the past. This is exactly why this needs completed.

And there has been much written and said by journalists on this project in the past. Not sure why the hostile note above.

Agree, it's an exciting project. I don't see how anyone can think otherwise when it is going to be a S M I T H S O N I AN M U S E U M.

Agree, it's an exciting project. I don't see how anyone can think otherwise when it is going to be a S M I T H S O N I AN M U S E U M.

I couldn't agree more, this has the potential to do more for OKC then all of the MAPS Programs put together.

Even a Smithsonian-related museum can be biased and watered-down. I stand by my original post that this museum won't give visitors an authentic experience. None of my Native American acquaintances are excited about this project. Why? Because the Smithsonian is administered by the federal government. Do I have to explain why natives have lingering resentment towards the federal government and white people in general?

Ah, an anti museum, anti government stereotype. Let's condemn it bebore we give it a chance to be great. Ugh.

Ah, an anti museum, anti government stereotype. Let's condemn it bebore we give it a chance to be great. Ugh.

Yup. Its not even a museum yet and people are saying they know its not going to be great..

I have had the opportunity to walk thru the construction site and see the plans and the computerized renditions of how it will look when completed. IMHO it will be a place of great admiration and a facility all Oklahomans can be proud of.

I do believe that the individual tribes should be more financially supportive but to each their own.

Why waste a spot like that with a museum when there could be something like a junkyard there...

Why waste a spot like that with a museum when there could be something like a junkyard there...

I guess the State/City should have left it in it's native state: vacant field, overgrown with weeds and 1000's of illegally dumped tires and tons of trash.

I am excited for it. I have no native Americans in my family and I feel proud to have it in OKC. I hope everyone else can feel the same.

I am excited about it too and I am part Native American (well, mostly NA actually). ..

I see this in the same light as how OKC hosts the Red Earth festival, lots of Native cultures coming together and celebrating common heritage together yet individually. This is also common from cultures of East Asia (China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan) and SE Asia (due to China's huge influence) - in that these countries celebrate many of the same holidays despite being historically different (other than the fact that all trace back to ancient chinese/manchurians and/or malay indians; as do Native Americans by the way hence why we all more or less look alike).

But I digressed a bit there, my point is it is ok and very beneficial to have a common meeting point, celebrations, or museum to showcase culture. Just because Americans like to bucket people into races does not negate the fact that there are commonalities among people nor should it denegrate (which was probably the original intent of Westerner's) those cultures/races.

The American Indian museum will be world class and being a Smithsonian will put OKC further on the map. At one point, I was a bit perplexed as to why it was A.I. and not Native American Cultural museum (and even more perplexed as to why Tulsa was trying to build the exact same thing and calling theirs NA museum); but now I see A.I. as an 'American' identity sort of thing, because that is what original colonists called the 'indian' inhabitants - thinking they were in India; and therefore I see this as a true connection to the American Indian and not just being politically correct (with the recently formed 'race' Native American).

So with OKC having the Smithsonian American Indian Cultural and History Museum, it will be world class, further put OKC on the map, and should be something for all in Oklahoma to finally be proud of (regardless if they are Indian or not). As for tribes paying for some of it - I think it is a good idea, because part of that money could pay for a specific tribute or tribe's message or it could help pay for maintenance and operations. Of course, being a Smithsonian I think the Federal Government should pick up a nice piece of it as well AND designate the museum just like they do other Smithsonian and/or National Historical monuments.

Good times lie ahead!

Why waste a spot like that with a museum when there could be something like a junkyard there...

Exactly, that would give us a true Native American experience instead of all of that historical junk. LOL

Recent construction photos...I assume the blue building will be painted.

Link (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=187057&id=69018819020)

Recent construction photos...I assume the blue building will be painted.

Link (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=187057&id=69018819020)

call me crazy, but I don't see a blue building..the building is clad with stainless steel or aluminum.

Ah ok. maybe it's just my monitor...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs194.snc4/38057_412970719020_69018819020_4669203_3543088_n.j pg

I couldn't agree more, this has the potential to do more for OKC then all of the MAPS Programs put together.

That's bold.

Agree, it's an exciting project. I don't see how anyone can think otherwise when it is going to be a S M I T H S O N I AN M U S E U M.

I personally think it will be pretty cool...but dont get to excited about the Smithsonian thing....it is intending to be a Smithsonian affiliate, much like 140 other museums in the country.

https://affiliations.si.edu/AffilDirectory.Asp?MenuID=11

I see the Oklahoma History Museum and Science Museum Oklahoma are already Smithsonian affiliates.

Ehh. I see now. Well I hope that this museum will achieve greater presence than those two other "Smithsonian affiliates."

What's more important than being a Smithsonian affiliate is being an AAM (American Association of Museums) accredited museum. The process is rigorous but well worth it.

http://www.okmuseums.org/about-oma/faq/#javelin_faq103_14


As of March 2009, Oklahoma has 11 accredited museums.
Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art University of Oklahoma, Norman
Gilcrease Museum, Tulsa
Museum of the Great Plains, Lawton
National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum, Oklahoma City
Oklahoma City Museum of Art, Oklahoma City
Oklahoma City National Memorial Museum, Oklahoma City
Oklahoma City Zoological Park and Botanical Garden, Oklahoma City
Philbrook Museum of Art, Tulsa
Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History University of Oklahoma, Norman Science Museum Oklahoma, Oklahoma City
Tulsa Zoo & Living Museum, Tulsa

Doesn't matter if it doesn't get completed, does it now?

Doesn't matter if it doesn't get completed, does it now?

It will be completed, the entire project is funded by the State of Oklahoma with some federal grants and eventually a capital campaign.

Article 2 of the Oklahoma Constitution
No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.

__________________________________________________ __________

I know that there is an attorney who is considering filing a lawsuit against the state because of the State funds that were used to construct the 'dirt pile', since it is a religious monument. If the court rules State funding unconstitutional then that could set us back even further, epessially is they require that the state be refunded.

Eh, I don't know if I would have put that out there. Attorneys, like businessmen, don't like it potential deals (read: suits) are aired out like that. They usually like to keep their cards close to the vest...

Having a cultural heritage center that displays a culture's religious environment, artifacts, etc. as part of their history and culture is not the same as funding a religion. This is why lawyers get a bad name...filing frivolous lawsuits that cost us the taxpayers money to defend. Lawyers can be like little kids throwing a fit but with much more damaging tantrums.

Article 2 of the Oklahoma Constitution
No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.

__________________________________________________ __________

I know that there is an attorney who is considering filing a lawsuit against the state because of the State funds that were used to construct the 'dirt pile', since it is a religious monument. If the court rules State funding unconstitutional then that could set us back even further, epessially is they require that the state be refunded.

You raise a really interesting point. I would contend that this is somewhat different, but I would concede that my own point of view is somewhat dismissing Indian religions as Greek mythology, which is kind of a bigoted truth perhaps. And then there's the hypocritical standpoint of throwing money at "cool religions" or "diverse religions" as long as it isn't Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

It's a dilemma. This is a good project, though. Especially if we can keep the deal in place with the tribes and the state splitting the remaining construction costs..the one that was in place before the state moved on.

I took 15 photos, available in high resolution, of the CAI grounds on September 23 and they are here: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23181&p=363465#post363465

Ehh. I see now. Well I hope that this museum will achieve greater presence than those two other "Smithsonian affiliates."

Just curious, what would be your specific issue with the Oklahoma History Center?

http://www.newsok.com/feed/construction-to-continue-at-american-indian-cultural-center-in-oklahoma-city/article/3500231?custom_click=pod_headline_news

Construction to continue at American Indian Cultural Center in Oklahoma City
$6 million in federal stimulus funds will help to keep construction going at cultural center in Oklahoma City. (Oklahoman, 10/1/10)


At the construction site, the gallery space is nearly complete. The building stretches across the site and flows into a large promontory mound — the large hill that can be seen from Interstate 35. Workers put the finishing touches on a native stone entry where 100,000 stones were laid.

The white steel support beams of the Hall of the People are in place and cast a shadow across the construction site.

Creation of a center to highlight Oklahoma's American Indian heritage has been in the works for more than a decade. The Native American Cultural and Educational Authority was created in 1994 to design, establish and sell bonds to build the facility. It's on land donated by Oklahoma City.

The museum complex, which is expected to include lodging and art galleries, will be complete by 2015 if lawmakers approve the bond issue next session, Timberman said. The development, off Eastern Avenue and Interstate 40, is expected to bring in nearly $7.5 million in state tax revenue a year, Timberman said.

That is good news that they will not have to cease or demobilize the contractors on site, that can cost far more than most realize. Not only in the additional costs that the contractors will charge for having to stop but then to re-mobilize to the site and then there is the risk that key personel might get relocated to work on projects that are going on in others areas of the state or country even. The contractor cannot afford nor should be expected to have highly paid quality employees just hanging out in limbo, waiting for the eventuality of funds, which may or may not happen in this world of financial uncertainty.

So a big hats off to the Govenor for his insight and being willing to front the money needed to keep them going until the next legislative session. Lets hope that the legislators are not asleep at the wheel or shortighted when it comes to approving the sale of the bonds needed to finish what we have started. The sooner it is completed the sooner it can generate tax revenues and draw patrons from around the country.

Just curious, what would be your specific issue with the Oklahoma History Center?

Sorry for the late reply. It's nothing really bad, because that museum is really rather well done. I wasn't knocking it, however it kind of leaves something to be desired? I could literally walk through it in 1 hour and see everything that I'd want to. I'm hoping this new American Indian Cultural Center is a really vivid, memorable, and interactive one and will make me want to come back, which the OHC doesn't do for me. But to each their own.

I'm really hoping that the AICCM get's finished in a timely manner. They still need 82 million dollars!?