It figures this would happen. I've lost all hope for this city and state.

This is the kind of crap that makes 95% of the people on this site hate you...how exactly is this the city's fault?


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This is the kind of crap that makes 95% of the people on this site hate you...how exactly is this the city's fault?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not the city's fault. The state government's idiocy though does affect OKC and its future prospects. The regressive politics and ways of the state are starting to reach a point where they will hamper the city of OKC from being what it could potentially be. If you think I am wrong or just being negative, just like at what is happening concerning the Boulevard. The anti-culture and anti-education policies of this state government is going to prevent or at least discourage the kind of companies that Oklahoma and OKC WANTS to locate here from doing so.

Bunch of dumb, incompetent, monkeys running this state. I am beginning to loose hope here...

Wow....that's a low blow to monkeys, they're not that ignorant.

Bunch of dumb, incompetent, monkeys running this state. I am beginning to loose hope here...

People deserve the government they vote for..... look around and ask why nearly every policy coming from 23rd & Lincoln is designed to benefit a very small group of people while leaving tens of thousands poor, sick, and uneducated. This state is a veritable playground for ALEC, AFP, or other fake libertarian foolishness; and the voters permitted it to happen. An educated and informed electorate would not be as easily duped into voting against their own interests. There is a balance where the needs of people AND business can prosper but we have permitted our state policies to be almost exclusively for only one. So the people that blindly vote for the letter after the name or other ridiculous reasons need to accept responsibility for the inhabitants of the crumbling capitol and governor's shack. But as long as they can wave their silly snake flag and claim that darn gubmint doesn't do anything for them all is well.......

So as of now, the state has invested tens of million dollars and now some of them do not want to finish what they or their predecessors started. The fundamental question now is which is worse - spending several more tens of million dollars, including private donations, to finish what will be an excellent cultural institution for Oklahoma's citizens, not to mention attract more than a few tourists. OR, we could let the tens of millions already spent go down the drain and have nothing to show for those tax payer dollars. There really is only one adult course of action, but going back to my comments about who we have elected I am not confident they are capable of making a rational decision.

Wow....that's a low blow to monkeys, they're not that ignorant.you're right how rude of me ;)

People deserve the government they vote for..... look around and ask why nearly every policy coming from 23rd & Lincoln is designed to benefit a very small group of people while leaving tens of thousands poor, sick, and uneducated. This state is a veritable playground for ALEC, AFP, or other fake libertarian foolishness; and the voters permitted it to happen. An educated and informed electorate would not be as easily duped into voting against their own interests. There is a balance where the needs of people AND business can prosper but we have permitted our state policies to be almost exclusively for only one. So the people that blindly vote for the letter after the name or other ridiculous reasons need to accept responsibility for the inhabitants of the crumbling capitol and governor's shack. But as long as they can wave their silly snake flag and claim that darn gubmint doesn't do anything for them all is well.......can't argue with any of that

I'm all for supporting a Native American Cultural Museum. They deserve support and
should receive public funding. Not government funding. No. Public funding. Yes.

Quick Question: Were any actual Native Americans (especially those who actually live in OKC) involved in the design process of this monument to cultural diversity and history and whatever? If so, I'd be interested to read their theories on the project.

(and I'm not referring to people many generations and layers down on The Sacred Tribal Rolls of Officially U.S. Approved list.)

I would hope that their contributions to this work of art (etc.) wouldn't be along the lines of that classic ethnically diverse--and right on target--parable/joke regarding how Indian children get their names involving opening the flap of the tipi to see what is happening in the moment. (you know . . . the one about the elder asking the fledgling brave . . . "Why do you ask, [insert appropriate risqué Proper Noun involving nature.])

Quick Question: Were any actual Native Americans (especially those who actually live in
OKC) involved in the design process of this monument to cultural diversity and history
and whatever?This is a very good question. I doubt that it can be answered
reasonably. Hate and politics seem to rule issues of this sort.

This is a very good question. I doubt that it can be answered
reasonably. Hate and politics seem to rule issues of this sort.

And, at least to me . . . it would be a cryin' shame.
Thankfully, I don't cry. =)
That's why I don't get involved with religion, politics, or Urban Development/act/Urban De-Velopment. =)

wasn't there a semi-noticeable flapping of wings over something local involving "Chickens in the Backyard" recently? =)

I'm all for supporting a Native American Cultural Museum. They deserve support and
should receive public funding. Not government funding. No. Public funding.

If my memory serves me correctly; does the State of Oklahoma owns the American Indian Cultural Center & Museum? Eighty millions dollars is needed to complete this center. State funding would be used to match $40-million given in private donations. The museum has sat unfinished since construction began in 2006, and even critics of the project want it finished.

Amid some opposition, American Indian Cultural Center & Museum officials hope donors remain loyal to the uncompleted venue:


http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/imgs/media.images/20931/aicc+025sc.jpghttp://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/imgs/media.images/20932/discovery+center+courtesy+the+center.jpg


So far, legislators have appropriated $63 million through state bond issues, plus spending $52,000 a month for site maintenance and security as the project remains idle.

Oklahoma Gazette News: American Indian Cultural Center (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-18826-culture-wars.html)


More than $95 million already has been spent on the unfinished project.

Plan to complete Okla. Indian museum languishing - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/25537151/plan-to-complete-okla-indian-museum-languishing)

http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

sorry about the code talking and smoke signals . . .
(time for a musical interlude?)

Historical Note: c/o "Native America Calling" . . . Local NPR affiliate . . . Keeps me Moderate on Emotional Issues.
zKjd_xLcE_M

Reminds me what a-hole "teachers" I had at the U of C (involving buffaloes) and how Ward Churchill, in the same educational venue, a few years later, summed all of them up. In terms of a goal of peace and harmony. (as if =)

This is a very good question. I doubt that it can be answered
reasonably. Hate and politics seem to rule issues of this sort.

No argument with that . . . (Politics for sure) . . . yet . . . where does Hate enter the frame?
(and what are THEY going to do? =)

Dang . . . I sorta feel like a Friend Fer A Better Boulevard all of a sudden . . .

Hate enters where the extremists want something other than justice.

We need serious change at the Legislature.

Hate enters where the extremists want something other than justice.

You seem to be obsessed with "hate" when there is no evidence of any "hate" being involved in this issue in the least. Why is that?

This is a very good question. I doubt that it can be answered
reasonably. Hate and politics seem to rule issues of this sort.

This is a very disturbing question that on the surface seems reasonable. I say that because if you have ever visited the museum web-site you could have seen dozens of videos that describe the entire process and almost all of the design details were decided upon by tribal leaders and historians input. Almost all of the design has Native American cultural references. I could sit and list all of the various reasons each item exist, but it would take to long. Keep in mind the museum was dedicated to all the tribes that moved to Oklahoma at one time or another (some left to return to where they were from) and their cultures and life-styles vary greatly - greater than European cultures. This was a State of Oklahoma museum project and the web-site use to be state funded and advertised. Despite a decade of this information being extensively available via on-line sites, a majority of Oklahomans don't know that this is , and was, and always has been, a state funded concept and project - A part of which involved an unexpectedly lengthy and expensive cleanup of an old industrial waste site along a major (for Oklahoma) source of drinking water. Besides the industrial clean-up, the increase in cost has come from the 'high-quality' standard for a museum THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA WANTED affiliated with the Smithsonian. Between the clean-up and the high-quality, spread over too long a time period in which the cost for material skyrocketed (think building boom in China which gobbled up concrete and steel) and cost became greater than anticipated. If it had been funded up-front, the cost would have been less. Outside parties have contributed to the construction because they also see the benefit to themselves, their people, the city, and the state.

Want the current legislature has done was to insure that a project started by earlier legislatures can not be finished - thus wasting all the monies up to now invested by their predecessors. So, they can claim 'waste' instead of acknowledging that they are responsible for this - and many other projects, school, infrastructure not being maintained and finished. They have become very poor stewards of the peoples heritage and property - a true waste.

At this point you have to hope a local philanthropy or corporation steps in to fund and finish the project, or the tribes decide to fund it (unlikely since this competes with their own cultural centers across the state). Then the Legislature will crow that private funding is better for this anyway when it was clearly a public project from the beginning with some private support.

I agree it needs to be finished and if it opens as it was originally designed it will be one of the top museums in the state. I took a tour back when they were first building after the berm was finished in 2009 and thought then that this was an awesome project. Even then the future of the museum was uncertain, and that was 5 years ago!

This is a very disturbing question that on the surface seems reasonable. . . . . . They have become very poor stewards of the peoples [sic] heritage and property - a true waste.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for the project. I didn't realize that the proper input, about which I was wondering, had been provided.

"
This is a very disturbing question that on the surface seems reasonable. I say that because if you have ever visited the museum web-site you could have seen dozens of videos that describe the entire process and almost all of the design details were decided upon by tribal leaders and historians input. Almost all of the design has Native American cultural references. I could sit and list all of the various reasons each item exist, but it would take to long. Keep in mind the museum was dedicated to all the tribes that moved to Oklahoma at one time or another (some left to return to where they were from) and their cultures and life-styles vary greatly - greater than European cultures. This was a State of Oklahoma museum project and the web-site use to be state funded and advertised. Despite a decade of this information being extensively available via on-line sites, a majority of Oklahomans don't know that this is , and was, and always has been, a state funded concept and project - A part of which involved an unexpectedly lengthy and expensive cleanup of an old industrial waste site along a major (for Oklahoma) source of drinking water. Besides the industrial clean-up, the increase in cost has come from the 'high-quality' standard for a museum THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA WANTED affiliated with the Smithsonian. Between the clean-up and the high-quality, spread over too long a time period in which the cost for material skyrocketed (think building boom in China which gobbled up concrete and steel) and cost became greater than anticipated. If it had been funded up-front, the cost would have been less. Outside parties have contributed to the construction because they also see the benefit to themselves, their people, the city, and the state.

Want the current legislature has done was to insure that a project started by earlier legislatures can not be finished - thus wasting all the monies up to now invested by their predecessors. So, they can claim 'waste' instead of acknowledging that they are responsible for this - and many other projects, school, infrastructure not being maintained and finished. They have become very poor stewards of the peoples heritage and property - a true waste.

Nicely stated.

The Tea Partiers have been saying for a long time that government is bad and corrupt.....maybe they are just trying to prove it through their actions (or inactions). If you want to make a case politicians are stupid, they sure have made one.

The Tea Partiers have been saying for a long time that government is bad and corrupt.....maybe they are just trying to prove it through their actions (or inactions). If you want to make a case politicians are stupid, they sure have made one.

Could not agree more - they are their own self fulfilling prophesy.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for the project. I didn't realize that the proper input, about which I was wondering, had been provided.

I should have quoted the person you were responding to - the answer was to his (prunepicker) statement, which you commented on. This earlier statement: "I'm all for supporting a Native American Cultural Museum. They deserve support and
should receive public funding. Not government funding. No. Public funding. Yes." shows a remarkable 'lack of awareness' of this entire project and process. It is considerate of him to support this project, but before you make a strong statement one way or another about government involvement, you should make an effort to see what the history of the governments involvement was to begin with .... in this particular case it was always A STATE OF OKLAHOMA GOVERNMENT project.

Meant no offense to either of you, frustration over-took me and I vented.

The voice of the rural districts in Oklahoma has taken over and spoken. Maybe we can finish this facility when MAPS IV (2017) rolls around if the donors are still willing to contribute.


The governor and legislative leaders announced they have reached a budget agreement, and it includes no money to help complete the project.

“If this result stands, it will haunt my community for years, and it should haunt the legacy of those in this building who could have done something about it,” said state Sen. David Holt, R-Oklahoma City...

Bigger problem ahead?

Smith said he was told many rural House members opposed the project because they questioned how it would help their communities



Indian museum funding is not in agreement: http://oklahoman.com/indian-museum-funding-is-not-in-agreement/article/4832133

This is a tapestry of things to come. Can't believe these small time 'hick-like, bowtie, bean counting, hair lip legislators' would start something they can't finish.

We should have foreseen this action based on the way they treated their own house. They were more concerned about putting a 'dome' on a crumbling framework rather than fix the structure itself.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSo4DNDuDZ3dxwg_4SvYr8O-Iae_cs4Z_EgSIJW7HyZfnF6hLoUhttps://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToVCguM8Bt3ub-fwuP9eYaJxtvVMp-0sfrvdURMyGSyOTD1VhwZA

The last Roman Corinthian style capitol building to be crowned with a dome.

We need leadership to get out ahead of this project (AICCM) and push for its completion. Our Governor (Mary Fallin) doesn't how any balls? Sorry, please take that figuratively and not literally. Obviously, the priorities of the legislature has changed.

Oklahoma City needs to step to the plate and finish the center and possibly the Oklahoma state capitol building.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

"...State sponsored..." More like Democrat cronyism run wild. I worked at the Capitol when this giant boondoggle was started. Blake Wade, Tommy Thompson, Kelly Haney, et al were all prime movers. Since the Dems ran the Legislature, they had the votes to make it happen. At one time they were going to have an 18 hole golf course. Sure they wanted Smithsonian certification. That was the smokescreen they put up to obscure all the profit-making schemes such as the golf course. What kind of cultural study was going to happen on the 11th tee? Probably Jack Daniels.

I have no problem with Native Americans having a cultural center even if the state
funds it. I wouldn't be opposed to a Mennonite cultural center as long as it's funded
in the same way as the Native American cultural center.

After all, Congress isn't part of it. That's a good thing since the Constitution says it
can't.

"...State sponsored..." More like Democrat cronyism run wild. I worked at the Capitol when this giant boondoggle was started. Blake Wade, Tommy Thompson, Kelly Haney, et al were all prime movers. Since the Dems ran the Legislature, they had the votes to make it happen. At one time they were going to have an 18 hole golf course. Sure they wanted Smithsonian certification. That was the smokescreen they put up to obscure all the profit-making schemes such as the golf course. What kind of cultural study was going to happen on the 11th tee? Probably Jack Daniels.

Democrat or Republican? Let's put this party affiliation 'blame game' battle aside. Let's get this project finished; there's $95 already invested. This huge edifice is idle and costing money; the longer it sits, the more costly it will become to complete.

If we're not going to proceed with a museum; what should we do with what is there?

Does anyone have any suggestions?


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

"...State sponsored..." More like Democrat cronyism run wild. I worked at the Capitol when this giant boondoggle was started. Blake Wade, Tommy Thompson, Kelly Haney, et al were all prime movers. Since the Dems ran the Legislature, they had the votes to make it happen. At one time they were going to have an 18 hole golf course. Sure they wanted Smithsonian certification. That was the smokescreen they put up to obscure all the profit-making schemes such as the golf course. What kind of cultural study was going to happen on the 11th tee? Probably Jack Daniels.

Whatever. The votes were there to get this done this year. Jeff Hickman just didn't want to let it go to the floor because there were more Democratic votes than Republican votes and not enough for a majority of Republican votes. Who cares? Is this democracy?

This reminds me of the BS in Washington. We can't get anything passed in the Senate without 60 votes, because the GOP filibusters EVERY SINGLE BILL.

Again, this is democracy?

Could not agree more - they are their own self fulfilling prophesy.

I saw an alarming poll yesterday of Oklahoma Republicans. 75% of them consider themselves Tea Party supporters. The Oklahoma Republican Party should just change its name to the Oklahoma Tea Party. Let the country club and traditional Republicans just join the state Democratic party, which is fairly moderate to conservative anyway.

This might be the best solution:

Oklahoma City could try to recover American Indian center land | News OK (http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-could-try-to-recover-american-indian-center-land/article/4838493)

The center could be finished just using the private money already pledged. However, now that the land itself is worth $20 million I would be all in favor of the city reclaiming the land and opening it up for private development.

I also had to LOL (and hold my head in shame at the same time) that they are still clinging to the $4 million in additional sales tax revenue per year from this place. It isn't even remotely possible. The vast majority of the people who visit this facility will be from OKC and the people who do visit from out of town will be here for reasons other than this museum so to make that claim is insulting.

If we gave it over to private development the same people on here would just gripe about what a lousy plan it was and how evil companies are dictating to the city, and how a few people run the city and gave this land away....Yada, Yada, Yada. Just finish it out as a first class cultural venue, not another apartment complex. I know certain on here think culture is what mixed use development is, but it isn't. Our state and it's people have incredible history and it needs to have its place. The tea party manipulation has to stop.

What if the city went back to the private donators and dropped the price to about $20 million instead of $40 million, then did work on the most important parts and relied on ticket prices/future donation to improve the rest of it? Think that would go over at all?

What if the city went back to the private donators and dropped the price to about $20 million instead of $40 million, then did work on the most important parts and relied on ticket prices/future donation to improve the rest of it? Think that would go over at all?

Half ass finish something, then expect people to come out and pay to visit half ass museum, and then try to do the extra work while the museum still needs to remain open? Sounds like a bad idea. Finish it right the first time.

Maybe the city is threatening to take the property to simply motivate the state. Whatever the case, using $40million from the unclaimed property fund to match $40million in private donations is an absolute no brainer. We just have conservative ideology that has gridlocked the House.

Exactly. We are "way passed" finger-pointing now. That time has come & gone. Hickman ( from Fairview ) and everyone else needs to Own-It. I don't care if you ( like / dislike ) this project, get it passed ! Get it done ! You are ALL in the same boat now. Get out of the way, and let this move on. Hickman from Fairview ( do something good for your town ). Anyone can act like a politician, anyone can complain & finger-point like a little spoiled Frat boy, but a TRUE leader ( Ron Norick ) has a better vision for the future of his town. He has made his town proud. Now make Fairview proud. Leading sometimes means getting out of the way and not listening to the small group around the water-cooler. This is much bigger than that Hickman.

... this needs to be the American Indian Cultural Center w/ out-of-state visitors. Not " Embarassment Mountain " (ex. ...several years later, visitors drive through our state ( I-40 & I-35) and look over at the tumbleweeds rolling over the larger grassy hill... the kids ask their dad in the car "Dad, what is that over there with the large hill and that rusty metal thing sticking out of the ground?" ..and the dad answers "Kids, that's what happens when people can't agree what direction to go, so they get stuck in the past". "Some guy from Fairview named Hickman wanted to make a name for himself, and stopped the whole thing". "Dad, what is the name of that hill?", ...they call it " Hickman Hill".

Get it funded now. Let's move passed it and get it open.

This is what I'm going to do Hickman from Fairview...

..If the City re-claims this property and has to pay (one more cent) on your project, I'm gonna get the largest Electronic HD Billboard ( just like Audrey M did with " Still Hiring" ) and place it in front the AICC & I-40 and I'm gonna run that ad w/ your picture on it. This sign will run with this... "This Failed Project was brought to you by this guy from Fairview, be sure to Thank him".

And I won't Run out of Money like you did. I will Pre-pay the lease for 10 years.

...and if Ms. Fallin doesn't do her part in "pulling this through", she will get added to this "Promotion Campaign" too. We would not want to leave anyone out that is due credit for this "failed" project.

I'm not for this project, I'm just against failure.

If we gave it over to private development the same people on here would just gripe about what a lousy plan it was and how evil companies are dictating to the city, and how a few people run the city and gave this land away....Yada, Yada, Yada. Just finish it out as a first class cultural venue, not another apartment complex. I know certain on here think culture is what mixed use development is, but it isn't. Our state and it's people have incredible history and it needs to have its place. The tea party manipulation has to stop.

Agree 100%.

I'm all for stopping government waste. But any civilization worth a damn has quality museums and cultural centers available to the public.

Half ass finish something, then expect people to come out and pay to visit half ass museum, and then try to do the extra work while the museum still needs to remain open? Sounds like a bad idea. Finish it right the first time.

I guess what my thought was is if the state legislature is unwilling to fund it, how can we get it open eventually. I admit, it is not a good idea, but an idea nonetheless.


Maybe the city is threatening to take the property to simply motivate the state. Whatever the case, using $40million from the unclaimed property fund to match $40million in private donations is an absolute no brainer. We just have conservative ideology that has gridlocked the House.

I like this idea a lot and I hope it work. This and the Capital building crumbling have taken far too long and should have been figured out several years ago. Now they are both money pits. One is going to take more work to fix the longer is sits decaying and the other needs 24 hour security because they haven't finished it yet.

I guess what my thought was is if the state legislature is unwilling to fund it, how can we get it open eventually. I admit, it is not a good idea, but an idea nonetheless.



I like this idea a lot and I hope it work. This and the Capital building crumbling have taken far too long and should have been figured out several years ago. Now they are both money pits. One is going to take more work to fix the longer is sits decaying and the other needs 24 hour security because they haven't finished it yet.

I like this alot. This is a hazard to work in, then they should have to work in this environment w/ Hard hats and steel toe boots.... ???? Let's don't fix the capital. ...let them work in this for awhile. hmmm???

I like this alot. This is a hazard to work in, then they should have to work in this environment w/ Hard hats and steel toe boots.... ???? Let's don't fix the capital. ...let them work in this for awhile. hmmm???

ODOL ..... Step up here.

Potentially stupid question, but do we know what's left to be done regarding the inside of the building(s)? Could we concentrate money we have on the front portions of the building and begin opening, then open more in phases as cash comes in? I realize there is work on the grounds still to be done, but you could argue that the Bricktown Canal area isn't "done" per se, but we've had people touring it for a decade and a half...

Potentially stupid question, but do we know what's left to be done regarding the inside of the building(s)? Could we concentrate money we have on the front portions of the building and begin opening, then open more in phases as cash comes in? I realize there is work on the grounds still to be done, but you could argue that the Bricktown Canal area isn't "done" per se, but we've had people touring it for a decade and a half...

That is pretty much what I was asking.

That is pretty much what I was asking.

Ah sorry, didn't catch that

Ah sorry, didn't catch that

No worries, glad there are two of us that have the same stupid question. :)

This could go in the Crumbling Capitol thread also. But I think it speaks to the core truth.

Ask Strong Towns, Question #7 - Strong Towns Blog - Strong Towns (http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2014/5/20/ask-strong-towns-question-7.html?utm_content=bufferb273c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.U3uVt4HKtMh)

I wonder if the City is considering getting involved to help bridge the financing gap.

Not sure if this was already answered but of that $40 million in 'private donations' - $9 million of it is from OKC. Couch's plan is to borrow the $9 million and then pay back the loan through the increased sales tax revenue generated by the project. I am so proud I was able to type that last line without laughing because I have no idea how the city is going to earmark and identify tax dollars generated solely by the AICC.

And I know that plan sound too stupid to be a real plan so just to prove I didn't make it up, here is the article from the Oklahoman.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-could-try-to-recover-american-indian-center-land/article/4838493


The city council agreed in 2012 to kick in another $9 million provided the state came up with its $40 million.

Consultants who said the museum would be a national and international draw found the city could collect $4 million per year in new sales taxes once it opens.

Couch said last year the city probably would borrow money for its share and repay the loans with new tax money.

Well, one thing is sure...don't finish it and don't get ANY economic effect and don't collect ANY additional taxes, while keeping the people more uncultured, uneducated, and easier to tell what to do. Sounds like another brilliant tea party strategy.

Not sure if this was already answered but of that $40 million in 'private donations' - $9 million of it is from OKC. Couch's plan is to borrow the $9 million and then pay back the loan through the increased sales tax revenue generated by the project. I am so proud I was able to type that last line without laughing because I have no idea how the city is going to earmark and identify tax dollars generated solely by the AICC.
And I know that plan sound too stupid to be a real plan so just to prove I didn't make it up, here is the article from the Oklahoman.

Oklahoma City could try to recover American Indian center land | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-could-try-to-recover-american-indian-center-land/article/4838493)

It would be my guess that they know how much money is dropped by tourist on a daily basis. If they can get a visitor count, they can get a general idea.
There would also be city taxes collected by the AICC, I would imagine.

It would be my guess that they know how much money is dropped by tourist on a daily basis. If they can get a visitor count, they can get a general idea.
There would also be city taxes collected by the AICC, I would imagine.

...and there is the flaw in their calculations. When I come to OKC I do it to visit family. We go to the zoo, Bricktown, Sam Noble Museum, the movies, and a whole host of other activities. The problem is the consultants think if I go to the AICC just once then 100% of my spending is credited to the AICC. That is how they got to a $2 billion economic impact in 20 years. Of course, they also use this exact same calculation if a city resident goes to the AICC. To get to their $2 billion impact the AICC would need to generate $273,972.60 per day in totally NEW spending. It is a farce.

For discussions sake... Why would it be a terrible idea for the city to "take back" the AICC land--not to demo it and release for development--but to finish the project? If properly finishing the ballpark garnered support, and updating/improving the Chesapeake arena did the same, couldn't people get behind a city-driven effort to complete this project?

For discussions sake... Why would it be a terrible idea for the city to "take back" the AICC land--not to demo it and release for development--but to finish the project? If properly finishing the ballpark garnered support, and updating/improving the Chesapeake arena did the same, couldn't people get behind a city-driven effort to complete this project?

Agree!

These previous projects which RickOKC mentioned should be a good gauge as to what can be accomplished.

While the rural legislators play tug-of-war and a pissing game with the urban districts; lets get this project completed and open so that it can generate its own revenue. Every new attraction you can add to our city's portfolio; the more revenue, enhanced positive image you will build as OKC moves forward.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

The city can take the land back but I am sure the state will their $90 million back.

The city can take the land back but I am sure the state will their $90 million back.

The Oklahoman article seemed to suggest they forfeit all that if they don't complete the agreed upon purpose.

The city can take the land back but I am sure the state will their $90 million back.

Wrong. The City has language in their land agreement with the authority (effectively a state agency) that allows them to take back the land for specific nonperformance. If it happens, the State will be forced to forfeit all rights. It takes 60 days' notice; that's it. This is a real possibility, not a bluff.

It's unlikely that the City would attempt to finish it as an Indian cultural center/museum. Unlikely as in no chance. It's very possible that the existing improvements could then be used as the basis for a new development, and could more or less be given to a private developer as an incentive.

So, effectively, you would have the State of Oklahoma subsidizing a private economic development project to the tune of $90 million in downtown Oklahoma City, with no strings attached and no recourse. Let the rural Tea Partiers in the legislature put THAT in their corn cob pipes and smoke it.

So, effectively, you would have the State of Oklahoma subsidizing a private economic development project to the tune of $90 million in downtown Oklahoma City, with no strings attached and no recourse. Let the rural Tea Partiers in the legislature put THAT in their corn cob pipes and smoke it.

As a seasoned poker player I can't tell you how many hands I had to fold on after putting a lot of money in the pot. Once I realize I can't win there is no point in throwing more money away trying to chase money I already put in. Doing so is a sure way to lose.

I doubt there is any strategy in the hand the legislature is playing. It's more like a bunch of six year olds playing Go Fish.

I doubt there is any strategy in the hand the legislature is playing. It's more like a bunch of six year olds playing Go Fish.

I think what happened to AICC is that it took so long from conception to execution that the states legislature changed during the process. This plan was passed by a Democrat governor, Democrat House, and Democrat Senate but they didn't provide any funding. I guess it is easy to put things in the Amazon shopping cart if you are going to wait for other people to pay for it. Now those 'other people' are here and they don't want what is in the shopping cart. Who is at fault?

I think what happened to AICC is that it took so long from conception to execution that the states legislature changed during the process. This plan was passed by a Democrat governor, Democrat House, and Democrat Senate but they didn't provide any funding. I guess it is easy to put things in the Amazon shopping cart if you are going to wait for other people to pay for it. Now those 'other people' are here and they don't want what is in the shopping cart. Who is at fault?

All of them. Whoever is the one "on-guard" when they dropped the ball, then that is the responsible group.

The City needs to re-claim this property and then finish it in the grand design intended. ...and do so quickly while there is still a positive economy.

If the City has $80 million laying around there are a lot better things to spend it on than the AICC. That will be 4 more miles of Streetcar track which will produce lightyears more spinoff development than the AICC ever will.

as a seasoned poker player i can't tell you how many hands i had to fold on after putting a lot of money in the pot. Once i realize i can't win there is no point in throwing more money away trying to chase money i already put in. Doing so is a sure way to lose.


i think what happened to aicc is that it took so long from conception to execution that the states legislature changed during the process. This plan was passed by a democrat governor, democrat house, and democrat senate but they didn't provide any funding. I guess it is easy to put things in the amazon shopping cart if you are going to wait for other people to pay for it. Now those 'other people' are here and they don't want what is in the shopping cart. Who is at fault?

bingo!

The City wouldn't have to put a dime into it. They will have no trouble luring a developer. It just won't be an Indian Cultural Center and Museum when it's finished.