Interesting that funding for Tulsa's Pop Music Museum has now been approved.

http://newsok.com/bond-issues-for-capitol-tulsa-museum-win-legislative-panels-approval/article/3677867?custom_click=pod_headline_politics

It's not looking good for the OKC museum

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-senate-opponents-of-bond-for-indian-museum-lose-support/article/3677855?custom_click=pod_headline_politics
Not directed at you but just a reminder, this isn't a done deal yet, the measures just made it out of the committee and are headed to the full chamber. It can still go either way with all of the bond issues. That said I am glad they did make them separate bond issues because they were going to run into trouble (as they have before with the Dome) when they combined unrelated bond projects into the same bill (logrolling).

Well, it looks like the proposed AICCM bond issue is dead, at least for another year. I have to say I'm relieved that the taxpayers won't be paying for this poorly managed boondoggle. If the tribes want it, let them pay for it out of their own well-lined pockets. http://newsok.com/senate-defeats-bond-issue-for-american-indian-cultural-center-and-museum-by-one-vote/article/3678013

So even with party control of litereally every state entity our governor can't get this bill or the tax cut bill she has been pushing to pass through our Congress? This state is disfunctional on gargantuan levels.

So even with party control of litereally every state entity our governor can't get this bill or the tax cut bill she has been pushing to pass through our Congress? This state is disfunctional on gargantuan levels.

First thing, it's called checks and balances. It's not dysfunctional. That's how it's supposed to function. Even if it's frustrating. Secondly, Oklahoma is not different than a lot of states. I've lived in Kansas for a year and they are dealing with pretty much every single problem OK is... Not that makes anyone feel better.

Compromise and flexibility are dirty words in our culture now. It is a weapon small minded people wield with enthusiasm, not just here, but all across our country. We are fractured here because of friction between OKC and Tulsa, rural and urban, uneducated to educated., etc. So many agendas and too little real leadership...just rhetoric.

This really, really sucks.

Combined with the news on Thunder Alley, this was a real bummer of a day for OKC.

This really, really sucks.

Combined with the news on Thunder Alley, this was a real bummer of a day for OKC.

No kidding.

I think this was a missed opportunity to advance an impressive project, particularly with the $40 million in commitments (confirmed by a bank) by parties other than the state to match the amount of the bond issue if it moved forward this year.

Honest opposition can be understood and respected, and there are probably some legitimate grounds for criticism. As a conservative myself, I am not personally upset with the fate of the cultural center. I am disturbed by knowing distortions of the truth advanced by some of its opponents on the senate floor this evening. I expect a number of the nays were persuaded by the mistruths. That is unfortunate, because development of good public policy requires truth and trust among allied policy makers as a foundation.

In discussing my concerns with some of the senators, I would love to be able to refer to exact statements during the debate. Does anyone know a way to obtain archived video from the senate floor for future reference? I can only find live video links for senate proceedings.

The bond issue for the Capitol building has been killed now too. I didn't see anythng final about the Tulsa museum but it may be going down as well.

http://newsok.com/house-kills-bond-issue-to-repair-renovate-oklahoma-capitol/article/3678125?custom_click=pod_headline_politics

Of course, now the building will sit idle and it's the state's responsibility to maintain it.

It's only going to be more expensive to get this thing back on track further down the line.


Like most things in politics, this wasn't about the right decision, it was about grand-standing, egos and posturing.

Of course, now the building will sit idle and it's the state's responsibility to maintain it.

It's only going to be more expensive to get this thing back on track further down the line.


Like most things in politics, this wasn't about the right decision, it was about grand-standing, egos and posturing.

sad decision ... both for these bonds ..and for the capital bond issue

Of course, now the building will sit idle and it's the state's responsibility to maintain it.

It's only going to be more expensive to get this thing back on track further down the line.


Like most things in politics, this wasn't about the right decision, it was about grand-standing, egos and posturing.

And by our own local representatives.

I wasn't against any of these projects as they are all worthy, however, I don't think long term bond issue debt that costs multi-more millions in interest is the best answer either. A recent article stated the debt service for the AICC alone would be $9 million/yr (don't know if that was just for the proposed additional $40 million or including previous bond debt). Again, I suggest a MAPS style temporary sales tax. I understand there are hurdles that need to be overcome for that too, but OKC has seen the benefits of doing it this way (even though we still use bond issues too).

So does OKC now finance it and then give the revenue back to the state? It was state oversight that is responsible for the overruns, delays, etc. Like other things that go over, everyone runs from the responsibility. Ultimately it is the state that allowed the governing organization to get where they are now and it is the state's responsibility to get it addressed in the best possible way, not in some misplaced ideological way. Anyone with half a brain knows that the cost of abandonment will be great. There will be maintenance and deterioration as well as NO revenue to pay back what has already been spent. The handling of this project, including the failure to finish, makes the state legislature look totally bush league.

There was a recent Oklahoman article where a couple of lawmakers suggested that the state give the land that OKC donated back and possibly take over the project (if we wanted to), but I don't think it got any further than suggesting it right now. pretty sure it would require legislation to do so and they are fast running out of time to get anything done this session (they have to adjourn by 5 pm Friday). While ther is always a possibility of a special session, that generally has to be called by the Governor, and he/she sets the agenda. Those are rare because it costs the state extra to do it.

There was a recent Oklahoman article where a couple of lawmakers suggested that the state give the land that OKC donated back and possibly take over the project (if we wanted to), but I don't think it got any further than suggesting it right now. pretty sure it would require legislation to do so and they are fast running out of time to get anything done this session (they have to adjourn by 5 pm Friday). While ther is always a possibility of a special session, that generally has to be called by the Governor, and he/she sets the agenda. Those are rare because it costs the state extra to do it.

A special session may be needed to resolve the house budget impasse anyway. The attempt to pass a budget this morning failed.

2012 Okie Politics - Where the R stands for Ridiculous and the D stands for Dim

The bond issue for the Capitol building has been killed now too. I didn't see anythng final about the Tulsa museum but it may be going down as well.

http://newsok.com/house-kills-bond-issue-to-repair-renovate-oklahoma-capitol/article/3678125?custom_click=pod_headline_politics

Tulsa World reporting that OKPOP passed (Oh...just the senate.)

I thought that the Tulsa museum was a package deal, to placate the Tulsa legislators who were rightfully complaining about getting the shaft if more funding is committed to the AICC.

I agree that this needs to be transfered to the Department of Tourism. That is common sense. Creating a separate state agency to oversee this project is ludicrous and wreaks.

Holy crap, did I just agree with the State Capitol GOP on something??

Transferring it to Tourism seems like common sense, but Tourism is constantly underfunded. It's much too difficult for the legislature to destroy an entire state agency than it is to chronically underfund a big one with too many responsibilities: Parks, Tourism Marketing, Resorts, etc. Tourism doesn't have enough clout to fight for itself -- especially with the current political makeup of the Leg.

If we're going to build it, we need to have a budget to sustain it, otherwise we're just flushing money down the toilet. If you understood the dynamics of Oklahoma State government better this would make more sense.

So the legislature's decision on these bond issues was... only yes to OKPOP?

That is just nuts. The Capitol will fall down. I hope it happens when they're in session.

I just read that the House reversed itself and decided to pass the tax cut, with absolutely no changes at all to yesterday's legislation they voted down. I'm sorry but that's not checks and balances when they do things like that, that is dysfunction.

If everyone could get together on this maybe there is still a ray of hope for the museum. If not I think okc should sue the state for its mismanagement of the project that led us here.

I just read that the House reversed itself and decided to pass the tax cut, with absolutely no changes at all to yesterday's legislation they voted down. I'm sorry but that's not checks and balances when they do things like that, that is dysfunction.

If everyone could get together on this maybe there is still a ray of hope for the museum. If not I think okc should sue the state for its mismanagement of the project that led us here.

It wasn't the tax cut, it was the budget. The tax cut is dead, because it was actually a TAX INCREASE for a good percentage of middle class folks. Fallin's proposal was so bad even the Oklahoman editorialized against it.

I'm sorry, I thought the tax cut was embedded in the budget deal. Okay, so I revise my statement, I now have no hope for the museum.

The city's pledge is on hold now too which isn't surprising.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-citys-pledge-to-help-indian-museum-may-be-on-hold/article/3678314?custom_click=pod_headline_politics

If memory serves, all 40 million in pledges were contingent on the state passing a bond issue in a like amount.

Not real impressed with the decision to let this languish.

This project did not become a true boondoggle until it became a political issue, and it costs the state more money just sitting with no progress. It might have been a bad idea from conception, but you cant go back in time. I can't believe the insanity of spending money on the Pop Museum before completion of this one. Will OKC politicians retaliate against the Tulsa politicians later by denying completion funds for the pop museum. Is our legislature creating a perpetual political boondoggle of museums. Rant over.. On a side note I think maybe the bond on the Capitol improvements might need to be rethought and only include the capitol building for now, at least to fix the facade and the plumbing/infrastructure problems.

Reportedly, the Tulsa one has an actual plan and they have said they will not be back asking for more money to finish it. But only time will tell on that one...

Tulsa's pop museum got nixed today too. Much like the fate of the American Indian Museum the city of Tulsa had secured pledges for their portion, the Senate had approved it, but then the bond issue died on the House floor.


http://washingtonexaminer.com/entertainment/2012/05/bond-plan-pop-culture-museum-wont-be-heard/654476

An update.

http://newsok.com/american-indian-museum-in-oklahoma-city-hits-roadblock-regroups/article/3681452

Wade said meetings are taking place with tribal leaders, the governor and the city of Oklahoma City to try to develop a plan with enough funding to keep the project moving.

Read more: http://newsok.com/american-indian-museum-in-oklahoma-city-hits-roadblock-regroups/article/3681452#ixzz1wvzjqn7S

Blake Wade has done a fantastic job in a very short period of time.

Hope he can marshal the resources needed to bring this to some level of completion.

This certainly needs to be completed. It'll be a great draw to the state and a great cultural center to build tribal pride. I can, however, understand the state's reluctance to put in another 40 million when, if the news article is right, it has already had 83 million put into it. At some point in time, it's gonna feel like throwing good money after bad. I wonder what was the initial budget? and where did that go wrong?

Nobody even wants to see a past audit..

It's going to take a long time for this museum to pay itself off, which I believe it will eventually. Every year we draw out its completion is a another year costs go up, without any potential gain.

I brought this up way further up-thread but I wanted to remind everyone that the Cowboy Hall took almost two decades to build and had many stops and starts, cost overruns, funding shortfalls, etc. And look at it now... It's been expanded and improved many times, has been a draw for decades, is financially stable and a great asset to the city. All it's early troubles have been long forgotten.

This is the way these types of projects go. If they can somehow find the funds to keep moving forward, I have no doubt the economics will work themselves out and future phases will also get built, although over a long period of time.

I brought this up way further up-thread but I wanted to remind everyone that the Cowboy Hall took almost two decades to build and had many stops and starts, cost overruns, funding shortfalls, etc. And look at it now... It's been expanded and improved many times, has been a draw for decades, is financially stable and a great asset to the city. All it's early troubles have been long forgotten.

This is the way these types of projects go. If they can somehow find the funds to keep moving forward, I have no doubt the economics will work themselves out and future phases will also get built, although over a long period of time.

Excellent point!

I brought this up way further up-thread but I wanted to remind everyone that the Cowboy Hall took almost two decades to build and had many stops and starts, cost overruns, funding shortfalls, etc. And look at it now... It's been expanded and improved many times, has been a draw for decades, is financially stable and a great asset to the city. All it's early troubles have been long forgotten.

This is the way these types of projects go. If they can somehow find the funds to keep moving forward, I have no doubt the economics will work themselves out and future phases will also get built, although over a long period of time.

That is an excellent point. We tend to forget these things. Thanks for reminding us Pete.

Here are the facts about the Cowboy Hall:


1955: OKC won the right to host the site and donated 37 acres; construction costs were estimated around $1 million (Even in today's dollars, that's less than $10M).
1959: Construction started
2 1/2 year complete work stoppage
1965: Facility opened


This project was just a fraction of the scope of the AICCM and it still took over ten years and there was a time it looked like it was completely dead in the water.

After it was finally complete, things seemed to really take off. I was born in 1960 and remember it was one of the few places we would take visiting family when they came to stay with us. As a schoolboy, I took several field trips there.

It became almost an instant source of civic pride and uniqueness. And if you don't recall, it was much, much smaller than what is there today, which is still dwarfed by the current ACCIM project.


We really need to get the ACCIM done. I was critical of the way this was organized and promoted from the beginning and many of my fears have been realized. But I also have no doubt this will be a far bigger asset than can be currently imagined, especially if you use the Cowboy Hall as a guide.

Is the National Cowboy Hall of Fame self-supporting?


The National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum is a recognized 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization that operates without state or federal funding. Much like the men and women of the West, the Museum operated independently, relying on Museum members and private funding to support its vision to remain the premier institution preserving and interpreting the American West. Please make a contribution today and ensure the stories of the American West are kept alive for generations to come.

Those 'donations' are tax deductable.

BTW, if you haven't been to the Cowboy Hall (can't bring myself to call it by that long name!) lately, you should go.

I hadn't been in decades and visited about five years ago and was very impressed. It's a first-class operation with plenty worth seeing.

BTW, if you haven't been to the Cowboy Hall (can't bring myself to call it by that long name!) lately, you should go.

I hadn't been in decades and visited about five years ago and was very impressed. It's a first-class operation with plenty worth seeing.

I was there about 2 years ago.

Went to their chuckwagon gathering two weekends ago. Had a blast.

Here are the facts about the Cowboy Hall:


1955: OKC won the right to host the site and donated 37 acres; construction costs were estimated around $1 million (Even in today's dollars, that's less than $10M).
1959: Construction started
2 1/2 year complete work stoppage
1965: Facility opened


This project was just a fraction of the scope of the AICCM and it still took over ten years and there was a time it looked like it was completely dead in the water.

After it was finally complete, things seemed to really take off. I was born in 1960 and remember it was one of the few places we would take visiting family when they came to stay with us. As a schoolboy, I took several field trips there.

It became almost an instant source of civic pride and uniqueness. And if you don't recall, it was much, much smaller than what is there today, which is still dwarfed by the current ACCIM project.


We really need to get the ACCIM done. I was critical of the way this was organized and promoted from the beginning and many of my fears have been realized. But I also have no doubt this will be a far bigger asset than can be currently imagined, especially if you use the Cowboy Hall as a guide.

The Cowboy Hall endured many struggles well after 1965 as well. It was nearly lost altogether in the mid-80s, IIRC.

Here are the facts about the Cowboy Hall:


1955: OKC won the right to host the site and donated 37 acres; construction costs were estimated around $1 million (Even in today's dollars, that's less than $10M).
1959: Construction started
2 1/2 year complete work stoppage
1965: Facility opened


This project was just a fraction of the scope of the AICCM and it still took over ten years and there was a time it looked like it was completely dead in the water.

After it was finally complete, things seemed to really take off. I was born in 1960 and remember it was one of the few places we would take visiting family when they came to stay with us. As a schoolboy, I took several field trips there.

It became almost an instant source of civic pride and uniqueness. And if you don't recall, it was much, much smaller than what is there today, which is still dwarfed by the current ACCIM project.


We really need to get the ACCIM done. I was critical of the way this was organized and promoted from the beginning and many of my fears have been realized. But I also have no doubt this will be a far bigger asset than can be currently imagined, especially if you use the Cowboy Hall as a guide.

Pete, you have hit the nail on the head. I love logging on and being stunned by some really good points I hadn't thought of, quite often from you. The Cowboy Hall comparison is very salient.

No comments about suspending construction indefinitely? I think it is very unfortunate this project has ground to a complete halt. I hope it will be completed somehow and it becomes the cultural and educational attraction it could be.

No comments about suspending construction indefinitely? I think it is very unfortunate this project has ground to a complete halt. I hope it will be completed somehow and it becomes the cultural and educational attraction it could be.

Me too. I think this is very unfortunate.

Depressing.

As was mentioned somewhere on this board, OKC is notorious for grand ideas that either never come to fruition or take 2 to 3 X the contstruction schedule due to a fauilure to secure the necessary funding or poor cost estimating. Another eyesore for this "world class city". Well done

It will get done. It is just a lot of wasteful politicians bitching about how it is a waste of money. Like I have said before it can't be a positive until it is finished. The politicking should have been done at the outset of this project. I'm not ever saying it is a good idea, but at this point it requires follow through. The state started this, it must be finished..

We knew this was coming when the legislature didn't approve the funding.

Now, they have to turn their attention on private funding and maybe more from the city.

They were able to raise $40 million very quickly, so I'm sure they will get there in time. Unfortunately, the cost of the project goes up when you have to completely stop then start up all over again.

As was mentioned somewhere on this board, OKC is notorious for grand ideas that either never come to fruition or take 2 to 3 X the contstruction schedule due to a fauilure to secure the necessary funding or poor cost estimating. Another eyesore for this "world class city". Well done

and yet this is a STATE project and OKC has nothing to do with it being delayed ..

As was mentioned somewhere on this board, OKC is notorious for grand ideas that either never come to fruition or take 2 to 3 X the contstruction schedule due to a fauilure to secure the necessary funding or poor cost estimating. Another eyesore for this "world class city". Well done

OKC is not the problem......the state is dropping the ball....................nice post...well done.

OKC is not the problem......the state is dropping the ball.

And Native Americans...

And Native Americans...

Surely you aren't implying that the Native Americans dropped the ball. This was a STATE initiative regarding the history of this great state and the heritage of a huge and important segment of our society. After the NON NATIVE AMERICANS have dropped the ball are you now criticizing the Native Americans for not saving their butts?

And Native Americans...

More like tribes that don't really have an interest in this project. Why would they want to fund something that would compete with their own museums?

And yet, some decent bits of funding, including part of the 40 mil in the recent pledges, derives from some of the tribal nations.
Darn those pesky facts anyhow.

Surely you aren't implying that the Native Americans dropped the ball. This was a STATE initiative regarding the history of this great state and the heritage of a huge and important segment of our society. After the NON NATIVE AMERICANS have dropped the ball are you now criticizing the Native Americans for not saving their butts?
While it is a State owned, State run project, it was initiated by one of the tribal Chiefs/Governors and the legislation was authored by one of our Native American state senators (the same one that designed the Guardian on top of the dome). Under the plan, the funding was to come from 3 sources and equally split

1) The State
2) The Feds
3) Private donations (tribes)

The State came up with their 1/3 and more, using 2 different bond issues to help do it. The Feds (Congress) promised their 1/3, but didn't follow through. The Feds did finally contribute some (but not near the 1/3) through the Stimulus. And while Tribes have contributed some funding, it hasn't been nearly the amount expected. And certainly not the amount needed to reach the 1/3 after the numerous cost over runs.

To answer jn1780: it shouldn't be seen as competion to their own cultural centers but complimentary. Consider the AICC to be a genral over view of the many tribes that have been a pert of this state's history. it is encouraged and planned for the indivdual tribes to have exhibits and information promoting their individual centers. Folks that visit the AICC will learn of those and possibly make an effort to visit them. The tribes benefit by direct visitation, retail, and yes even probable casino vists by those same folks that might otherwise not visit.



and yet this is a STATE project and OKC has nothing to do with it being delayed ..
True, but government projects (Fed/State/Local) all have this tendency to go over budget and be delayed.

In the meantime, we can tell people that it was suppose to be an earthen ramp for a failed highway project.

In the meantime, we can tell people that it was suppose to be an earthen ramp for a failed highway project.
LOL...it was for the Boulevard connection

I'm trying to stay positive, but this is one of those projects that blows my mind, and you guys know how pessimistic I can get sometimes. I would just suggest visiting the new Chickasaw Cultural Center in Sulpher which is fantastic.

It reminds me a lot of that new modern art museum in Bentonville..

This center - the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum - received large, high-profile pledges from the governor and members of the legislature, the City of Oklahoma City, and a group of non-Native individuals. The most dangerous place to be in Oklahoma was between these groups and a television camera. At the same time I don't recall hearing any substantive financial pledges coming from Native American individuals or tribes. People I have spoken with are amazed by their silence, and the impression is that they're not contributing to this center which benefits American Indians. I'd feel different if I saw Bill Anoatubby, Neal McCaleb, Enoch Kelly Haney and other prominent Native leaders get in front of this, but I don't think that they have.

This center - the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum - received large, high-profile pledges from the governor and members of the legislature, the City of Oklahoma City, and a group of non-Native individuals. The most dangerous place to be in Oklahoma was between these groups and a television camera. At the same time I don't recall hearing any substantive financial pledges coming from Native American individuals or tribes. People I have spoken with are amazed by their silence, and the impression is that they're not contributing to this center which benefits American Indians. I'd feel different if I saw Bill Anoatubby, Neal McCaleb, Enoch Kelly Haney and other prominent Native leaders get in front of this, but I don't think that they have.

Looks like to me it's supported by the Chickasaw nation -

http://www.chickasaw.net/governor/index_5804_393243353039423345413430343133434141433 1344339363033434436353432.htm