If the state has $40 million laying around I would rather they spend it linking Tulsa and OKC with rail.

If the state has $40 million laying around I would rather they spend it linking Tulsa and OKC with rail.

Speculated Costs in 2003 (http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/5093/29538.aspx)

Minimum, you're looking at $1 million per mile. That'll almost get us to Stroud!

Well the, we could have another good idea that gets half finished.

Just wish the state would finish this one first and give the Tulsans another reason to get on that train to OKC.

Isn't Tulsa working on their own Indian project?

Something like a 200' tall statue, is it finished?

Isn't Tulsa working on their own Indian project?

Something like a 200' tall statue, is it finished?

That's been cancelled for years now....................

Speculated Costs in 2003 (http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/5093/29538.aspx)

Minimum, you're looking at $1 million per mile. That'll almost get us to Stroud!

Fine - OKC to Norman or WRWA with regional rail or a streetcar extension to the capitol complex.

I think we should just finish a half completed project prior to starting new ones. Whether this project was a good or bad decision, it seems extremely unwise not to get it done in a timely manner.

I see someone finally decided to start telling the truth.

2003:
http://indiancountrynews.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2972&Itemid=33


According to a 2003 economic impact study by Applied Economics, the total economic benefit of the American Indian Cultural Center to the state economy over 20 years could reach $2.6 billion. The annual impact could be as much as $128.8 million, the study found.

Today:
http://newsok.com/american-indian-cultural-center-in-oklahoma-city-seeks-private-funding-to-finish-project/article/3633291#ixzz1gzhLGevo


Reports also suggest that up to $4 million in revenue will be lost for each year the cultural center opening is delayed.

This last part is priceless:



“Why should tribes be asked to contribute more than they already have?” Haney said. “This is a state agency. How often do see state agencies asking for private money to finish projects of this size?”

The former Seminole Nation chief, who describes himself as a semiretired artist, said he is looking forward to the museum opening, but maintains that tribes have done enough for the project.

“The reason for the museum is to let Native people tell their own stories,” Haney said.

“They have never been able to do that up until now — everyone's done it for them.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/american-indian-cultural-center-in-oklahoma-city-seeks-private-funding-to-finish-project/article/3633291#ixzz1h272UzuW

The people of Oklahoma have been duped - big time.

I believe the $4 mil a yr is the income the museum would earn, not the economic impact. and I don't believe it was perceived that it would be funded by the tribes.

Sorry, fail to see the bogey man hiding behind every tree.

Yeah. I don't see what your point is, Just the Fact. Did you prove something with your highlighting? More explanation would be appreciated.

Yeah. I don't see what your point is, Just the Fact. Did you prove something with your highlighting? More explanation would be appreciated.

You don't see the irony in those two statements from the same person?

Why should the tribes contribute? Answer, The reason for the museum is to let Native people tell their own story. They have never been able to do that up till now - someone has always done it for them.

That is just dripping with irony. If they want to tell their own story and don't want someone else doing it for them maybe they need to pony up and do it for themselves.

Maybe he means he is thankful that the tribes have already been able to have their part in telling their stories as reflected in the design and planning, but since it is a state project they shouldn't have to fund it more.

I guess I see a lot more irony in our state calling itself "Native America" for branding purposes considering our sad history of exploitation of tribal people. This museum will let then tell their stories and the state can make money (in tourism dollars) from it in an equitable way. Understanding "Native" history is part of understanding the history of this country. We all benefit from that. Not just tribes.

Whatever - they are still $80 million short.

Whatever - they are still $80 million short.

Actually only $60 m.

Actually only $60 m.

They only get the $20 million in private donations if the state does a $40 million match, so they are still $80 million away.

Im sure its in here but how much was it origanlly proposed for? And how much has been put in to the AICC to date? Thanks

I think the original budget was $77 million but don't quote me on that. The current budget is $177 million. Total spent to date is as follows:

State - $67.4 million
Federal - $16.3 million
Private - $2.7 million
Tribes - $5 million
Land - donated by OKC

Total to date: $90.4 million with $80 million to go.

On edit - I found some interesting quotes at http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/31033/2

I'll post them when I get time.

On further edit. The original 1994 budget was for only $33 million in state funds.

Ok after reading that article I am even more frustrated.

The big kicker is that the land was donated for free from the City in 1998. After after 90.4 million sunk into this place all we have is a big hill and structure.

I know there was some infastructure issues that needed to be addressed that took up some money but holy crap. I think we all deserve to see where all the money is gone. Also to paraphrase the quotes "30 years ago the tribal leaders wanted a space to celebrate american indian culter" "each of the 39 tribes had a part of preparing the site and will be designed, CONSTRUCTED, and operated by the Native American Cultural and Educational Authority.

Also, the article it says its supposed to have a 200 room lodge and 150 room hotel, along with restaurants. Doesn't seem like 80 million is going to cover the rest with the way they are burning money.

No one is saying that this isn't a great project, but the time of taxpayers dollars going into this fiasco should be over. If the tribes want this as bad as the article says they do, they need to chip in more than $5 million.

I think it's also interesting to note that the OKC National Memorial & Museum cost $21 million when it was built. Granted, that was over a decade ago, but it still seems like a bargin by comparison, even after adjusting for inflation.

As far as where the additional $80 million needed to finish the project will come from, I can't imagine any state legislator ever voting for another bond issue related to this project given the current economic climate. However, I am a little cloudy on what exactly the mechanism for the state "matching" funds would be if the AICCM is able to raise half of the money the need. Are those funds raised through the sale of bonds or some other source? And has that already been approved by the legislature, or are the powers-that-be at the AICCM just hoping that they'll get the votes required to pass such a measure once they have the cash in hand?

Lastly, (and for what it's worth) the $20 million private donation mentioned by Wade in the Oklahoman article and elsewhere in this thread came from the Chickasaw Nation.

Ok after reading that article I am even more frustrated.

The big kicker is that the land was donated for free from the City in 1998. After after 90.4 million sunk into this place all we have is a big hill and structure.

I know there was some infastructure issues that needed to be addressed that took up some money but holy crap. I think we all deserve to see where all the money is gone. Also to paraphrase the quotes "30 years ago the tribal leaders wanted a space to celebrate american indian culter" "each of the 39 tribes had a part of preparing the site and will be designed, CONSTRUCTED, and operated by the Native American Cultural and Educational Authority.

Also, the article it says its supposed to have a 200 room lodge and 150 room hotel, along with restaurants. Doesn't seem like 80 million is going to cover the rest with the way they are burning money.

No one is saying that this isn't a great project, but the time of taxpayers dollars going into this fiasco should be over. If the tribes want this as bad as the article says they do, they need to chip in more than $5 million.

I believe the hotel, etc. is private development and not being paid for by the state. However, without the state finishing the project, there will be no other development there for quite some time. This will become a huge embarrassing symbol of failure at the gateway of downtown. (And we can all posture to place the blame on whoever your political position dictates). Nonetheless, it will be a consistent reminder of the failing of the state, city, etc. to everyone who passes by.

This past Saturday, I spent a couple of hours at the Chickasaw Cultural Center in Sulpher. It was very good and educational, pretty impressive. This site could be so much more just due to the size and location of the project.

By 2005 they had already spent money on reimbursing travel for 54,000 miles of driving and 25,000 air miles "ensuring each tribe had a voice in the center". Who knows how much since then.

Ok after reading that article I am even more frustrated.

The big kicker is that the land was donated for free from the City in 1998. After after 90.4 million sunk into this place all we have is a big hill and structure.

I know there was some infastructure issues that needed to be addressed that took up some money but holy crap. I think we all deserve to see where all the money is gone. Also to paraphrase the quotes "30 years ago the tribal leaders wanted a space to celebrate american indian culter" "each of the 39 tribes had a part of preparing the site and will be designed, CONSTRUCTED, and operated by the Native American Cultural and Educational Authority.

Also, the article it says its supposed to have a 200 room lodge and 150 room hotel, along with restaurants. Doesn't seem like 80 million is going to cover the rest with the way they are burning money.

No one is saying that this isn't a great project, but the time of taxpayers dollars going into this fiasco should be over. If the tribes want this as bad as the article says they do, they need to chip in more than $5 million.

This is been my thoughts all along, this one has boondoggle all over it. $90 million for what they've done so far, I'm not buying it. Unfortunately I see this becoming a MAPS4 project.

This is been my thoughts all along, this one has boondoggle all over it. $90 million for what they've done so far, I'm not buying it. Unfortunately I see this becoming a MAPS4 project.

Uh, a MAPs 4 project probably wouldn't start for 15 years. This better be resolved in some way before that...

I'm wondering why we couldn't integrate this into the new convention center?
taking that $250m+/- the citizens wouldn't have to pay for land since that was originally ours in the first place and the money might go pretty far. To me IMO that could make lemonade out of lemons. We know it is a great location, room for a big hotel and visitors would get a great experience of the new Oklahoma.
Just a thought ....

I was also thinking it could be used as another boathouse, since it's near(ish) the water, or somehow incorporated into the boathouse district master plan if it fails as an Indian center. Sorry if this has been suggested, didn't go back and read the whole thread...

If it fails as an Indian Museum the land reverts to City ownership with State owned buildings on it. That complicates things. Now that the site is clean I say tear down the buildings, flatten the dirt mound and sell the land to a private developer. The City gets the first $5 million to recover the cost of the land donation with the state getting the rest to recover some of the $67 million they spent. Private donors are sol. I don't know if the feds will want their $16 million back, but even if they do $16 million is less than $40 million.

Who knows, maybe this site is worth north of $100 million and everyone could turn a profit. It is 210 acres of waterfront.

Or, certain legislizards could just agree that T-town area gets their pop cultural funding, and then the ne opposition falls and this can go foward, finally, as it should (and, i suspect, ultimately will.)

I was also thinking it could be used as another boathouse, since it's near(ish) the water, or somehow incorporated into the boathouse district master plan if it fails as an Indian center. Sorry if this has been suggested, didn't go back and read the whole thread...


If it fails as an Indian Museum the land reverts to City ownership with State owned buildings on it. That complicates things. Now that the site is clean I say tear down the buildings, flatten the dirt mound and sell the land to a private developer. The City gets the first $5 million to recover the cost of the land donation with the state getting the rest to recover some of the $67 million they spent. Private donors are sol. I don't know if the feds will want their $16 million back, but even if they do $16 million is less than $40 million.

Who knows, maybe this site is worth north of $100 million and everyone could turn a profit. It is 210 acres of waterfront.


I'm wondering why we couldn't integrate this into the new convention center?
taking that $250m+/- the citizens wouldn't have to pay for land since that was originally ours in the first place and the money might go pretty far. To me IMO that could make lemonade out of lemons. We know it is a great location, room for a big hotel and visitors would get a great experience of the new Oklahoma.
Just a thought ....

Why not? It would certainly be consistent; another broken promise to Native Americans.

Why not? It would certainly be consistent; another broken promise to Native Americans.

That is the whole debate isn't it; selling Indian culture as a tourist attraction to raise funds for the State under the guise that we are doing it for them.

That is the whole debate isn't it; selling Indian culture as a tourist attraction to raise funds for the State under the guise that we are doing it for them.

No. It is the promise to tell an accurate story of a people. The fact that it can be a tourist attraction is a bonus. The sad part is how eagerly some of us are willing to break the promise. The area that is Oklahoma was traded to the tribes in exchange for lands elsewhere. It was suppose to be theirs for as long as the grass grew and the rivers flowed. The tribes thought that meant forever. It turned out to be less than forty years. Will the AICCM promise last only until it is no longer convenient?

Didn't the Indians alive at the time sign a treaty that opened Oklahoma to settlement?

Didn't the Indians alive at the time sign a treaty that opened Oklahoma to settlement?

Probably the great grandfathers of those making the most money from the casinos and the great great grandfathers signed the treaties that brought them to Oklahoma in the first place.

Probably the great grandfathers of those making the most money from the casinos and the great great grandfathers signed the treaties that brought them to Oklahoma in the first place.

The treaties were usually signed at the end guns and often signed by people with no authority to sign them. And then those evil and unfair treaties were broken over and over again only to force worse and worse treaties. Then there was the Dawes act.

The United States is guilty of genocide and simple greed was the reason for it. President Andrew Jackson among others should be remembered as a very evil man.

There is much for this country to atone for.

Swake2 - are you in possession of stolen property, and if so, when do you plan to return it?

In other words, do you live in the United States?

Name One country throughout time that has NOT committed atrocities to gain power or to expand!It never was, and still isnt right,but that's how countries expand or gain wealth!

Why not? It would certainly be consistent; another broken promise to Native Americans.
RodH,
From reading the comments on NewsOk.. the various Native American tribes view this project as threatening to them. Competing for attendance and revenues of their own cultural centers.
If they view it that way it will never be a successful independent Native American venue. Maybe it shouldn't have been proposed in the first place, but if you use it as the museum it was intended to be , then it could introduce conventioneers to the beginning of the Oklahoma Story. It could then be a feeder for these people to visit the individual Native American cultural centers.

The treaties were usually signed at the end guns and often signed by people with no authority to sign them. And then those evil and unfair treaties were broken over and over again only to force worse and worse treaties. Then there was the Dawes act.

The United States is guilty of genocide and simple greed was the reason for it. President Andrew Jackson among others should be remembered as a very evil man.

There is much for this country to atone for.

No, this country has nothing to atone for. Heck, Christopher Columbus is ultimately responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of natives, long before the pilgrims showed up. Does that mean Spain should atone? Portugal? What happened in history is just that... history. It isn't all great, but it's history. The point of history is to us to learn from it, not make today's country pay for it.

Evil isn't confined to jurisdictions. People today are too quick to politically frame human error.

People like to pick and choose which 'atrocities' to be offended by. Its simply the reality of our world. We didn't introduce the Indians to warfare anymore than we introduced slavery to Africans.

No, I don't have any stolen property. My wife's name is on the deed to my house and we live in her tribal national area not 10 miles from her grandfather's allotment land. And he was an original allottee. Crimes like the Dawes Act don't really seem like so long ago when it happened directly to people that you knew. To someone that was your children's great grandfather.

It's true that you can't unspin history but many of the really racist comments in this thread go to show that Native persecution has NOT ended and therefore this is not a settled chapter in history but a still active problem. Native Americans are the poorest demographic in the United States. Why is that?

Not once in my lifetime have I ever persecuted Native Americans and I personally have not ever stopped a Native American from getting a job. Let's get that straight.

People like to pick and choose which 'atrocities' to be offended by. Its simply the reality of our world. We didn't introduce the Indians to warfare anymore than we introduced slavery to Africans.
Seriously? We should accept atrocities and injustices because it is universal? Racism is okay because there are racists everywhere? Slavery is okay because we didn't have the first slave here? This is a defense?

Seriously? We should accept atrocities and injustices because it is universal? Racism is okay because there are racists everywhere? Slavery is okay because we didn't have the first slave here? This is a defense?

You must be arguing with yourself, because I never said that, but obviously you hear it how best fits your bias.

Were Native Americans victimized? Sure. Has virtually every other society been victimized at some time? You bet. Do I owe the Native Americans anything? Nope.

Never said any of it was okay. I said it is the reality. A place you obviously refuse to venture.

It's true that you can't unspin history but many of the really racist comments in this thread go to show that Native persecution has NOT ended and therefore this is not a settled chapter in history but a still active problem.

I may not be Native American ENOUGH for my opinion to matter, but that side of my heratige is very important to me. With that said, I have searched and searched for these "really racist comments" you mentioned and I can't find them, can you let me know what I should be offended by? Seems to me everyone here is being either relatively respectful or at least honest (but not offensive).

Seriously? We should accept atrocities and injustices because it is universal? Racism is okay because there are racists everywhere? Slavery is okay because we didn't have the first slave here? This is a defense?

I'd bet that the Cherokee Freedmen would have an interesting spin on this whole "racism" thing . . .
But I'm not a gambler.

I'd bet that the Cherokee Freedmen would have an interesting spin on this whole "racism" thing . . .
But I'm not a gambler.

I happen to think that the Cherokees are in the wrong with the freedmen. But that said, the treaty that gave the Freedmen full tribal status was again forced on the Cherokees after the civil war. Interestingly the Federal government forced the Cherokees to recognize freedmen as full citizens within the Cherokee tribe in 1866 but didn’t do give equal rights to blacks citizens in the larger United States until the 1960s. One hundred years later.

It's not worth anyone's time to argue with swake.

Guys, please get back to discussing the American Indian Culture Center and Museum.

You must be arguing with yourself, because I never said that, but obviously you hear it how best fits your bias.

Were Native Americans victimized? Sure. Has virtually every other society been victimized at some time? You bet. Do I owe the Native Americans anything? Nope.

Never said any of it was okay. I said it is the reality. A place you obviously refuse to venture.

Originally Posted by BBatesokc
People like to pick and choose which 'atrocities' to be offended by. Its simply the reality of our world. We didn't introduce the Indians to warfare anymore than we introduced slavery to Africans.

Sorry, it sure sounded like you were saying we should overlook what happened to the native American's here because it is universal and the reality of the world, therefore thinking it was a tragedy is pointless.

There is a good book about the dust bowl that you might like to read that touches on some of the issues of the Indians of this area far as their aggressiveness or not. It is "The Worst Hard Time", by Timothy Egan. There are any number of good reads on The Trail of Tears also...something I was involved in for a documentary years ago. In all, when you read various accounts of the struggles and triumphs of the American Natives who were either native to Oklahoma or re-located to Oklahoma, it is truly moving. Should you or I take personal responsibility or feel guilty....absolutely not. But can we acknowledge the struggles of this very large and important part of our state and its history, yes we can. Of the mistakes that were made, maybe we can expose them to kids who are ignorant of the past but need to know. Should we help this important segment of our society and state be proud to have their story told, IMHO, yes. Choosing to be moved or even offended by attrocities shouldn't be a matter of selection, but can be a matter of exposure and awareness. It is only my opinion (one which I am told by some contributes nothing to this board) that this Center can be valuable both culturally and economically for OKC and OK. How can any of the same people who are outraged at the thought of tearing down the Stage Center not be also saddened that this much more personal and local facility celebrating this piece of our heritage might not be completed.

Do not take my opinion to be that I endorse waste, mismangement or corruption. Where I differ from many on this board is that I think that when those things have occured then the actual parties involved should be held directly accountable, exposed and prosecuted where possible. I do not believe in lazy innuendos, but in aggressive accountability. If such occured here then by all means, persue justice. I just don't happen to believe it warrents not finishing this project.

From a pure selfish standpoint as Oklahoma Citians, we should hope that this gets funded and completed. Not only is a half finished facility in such a visible location going to be an embarrasment, but leveling the land as some has suggested will decrease the development potential of that area for the forseable future. With emphasis on CTS, expanding the core of downtown to the north, and with the vacating of the cotton mill, there will be many more important strategic areas to focus development on than this stretch of land. We gave it away as it had little value and the real value in it would be for something like this project.

One thing that must be kept keenly in mind amid this debate is that, from what I've read, there's anything but a groundswell of loving, enthusiastic support for this facility among the leadership of the various tribes. Some have provided some funding, but are unwilling to provide more - because they're working on their own cultural centers that aren't quite so overtly commercial.

So this notion that not finishing the center is the "breaking of a promise" as though we've breached some centuries-old treaty is a bit ridiculous. If its being sold as a "cultural" center, then private funds should bear 100% of the cost. While our teachers go wanting for decent pay and our roads and bridges crumble from beneath us, I, for one, oppose even $1 of state tax monies being spent on this project. Sorry if that offends some, but it's just the way I feel.

If that is the case, then one would have to believe the state, city or any government entity should not be financially involved in any museum, historical preservation activity, or other cultural activity and agree there is no public benefit to be had.

One thing that must be kept keenly in mind amid this debate is that, from what I've read, there's anything but a groundswell of loving, enthusiastic support for this facility among the leadership of the various tribes. Some have provided some funding, but are unwilling to provide more - because they're working on their own cultural centers that aren't quite so overtly commercial.

So this notion that not finishing the center is the "breaking of a promise" as though we've breached some centuries-old treaty is a bit ridiculous. If its being sold as a "cultural" center, then private funds should bear 100% of the cost. While our teachers go wanting for decent pay and our roads and bridges crumble from beneath us, I, for one, oppose even $1 of state tax monies being spent on this project. Sorry if that offends some, but it's just the way I feel.

If there is a lack of enthusiastic support among tribal leadership perhaps it is because there is a lack of trust. Would it be farfetched to suspect that it is just a matter of time before any contributions made will be lost? What happens to the contributions already made by the tribes if the center is not finished? Teacher pay was already last in the country when the agreement to build the AICCM was made. Our roads and bridges were already in bad shape too. When the land was donate for this center it was a toxic waste site. No one wanted anything to do with it. Now that it has been cleaned up people can see all kinds of uses for it. Hopefully the AICCM was not used just as a scam to get the site cleaned up so it could be put to a "better use." This project needs to be completed. It can be a great education resource for our underpaid teachers.

I bet if a casino was involved the tribes would be breaking down the door to get in the loop

You can't blame the tribes...

It would be like someone wanting to do a huge museum about the 50 states in Iowa then expecting Oklahoma to contribute millions.

You can't blame the tribes...

It would be like someone wanting to do a huge museum about the 50 states in Iowa then expecting Oklahoma to contribute millions.

The National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum was funded by seventeen states if I remember it correctly.

The National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum was funded by seventeen states if I remember it correctly.

But, the difference is that it isn't the OKLAHOMA Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum and the cowboys that live in OK were never asked to contribute to it.

The Cowboy Hall was a completely different deal... 17 governors appointed trustees to select a site and OKC won because we donated the 37 acres plus offered to build the building.

This was a project that states already decided they wanted and set out to find the best situation. Plus, we are not talking about huge sums here... The entire structure was built for less than $1 million.

Just read in the archives that each state was given a fund-raising quota, whereby they solicited memberships. Most of the quotas were less than $80,000 and it all came from individual private donations.


How do you think it would have worked if OKC just built the museum, encountered a massive overrun then asked states for millions?

I am not advocating for the tribes to make contributions. I was just observing that states have made donations to a museum not in their state. In the case of the AICCM the state committed to it and I think that the state should keep its committment. Completion should not be made contingent upon more tribal support. With regard to the Cowboy Museum, I do not think that it would have worked well if OKC had built the museum and then tried to bring the states in to support it.

I agree that relying heavily on the tribes for funding isn't the way to go and probably won't work anyway.

It's nice most have provided some financial help and all have agreed to contribute to the cultural part, but that's really all we can or should expect.