Throwing good money after bad money is not a solution. Who keeps in investing in boondoggles after they are discovered to be boondoggles? Just like in poker, once you realize you have a losing hand it is best to fold. Save your money for a winning hand.

This bb is filled with literally hundreds of ideas from all over the world that you have proposed for OKC. AICCM is something that is uniquely Oklahoma. OKC@heart eloquently stated what is at stake here. How can you consider this project a boondoggle? Surely it is at least as worthy of our support as many of the projects that you have proposed for development.

Throwing good money after bad money is not a solution. Who keeps in investing in boondoggles after they are discovered to be boondoggles? Just like in poker, once you realize you have a losing hand it is best to fold. Save your money for a winning hand.

Is this just another comment to throw out there to start conversation or are you serious?

Throwing away good money already sunk on a good idea is an ignorant idea. Asking questions about the controls of expenditures is fine. Understanding the legitimacy of the answers is required. Judicious spending of public money is expected. Holding this project hostage to make a political point is small minded.

This project deserves to be completed. If there is malfeasance then it needs to be attended to, but the project should not be cancelled and the money already spent wasted.

Indians are not unique to Oklahoma.

Indians are not unique to Oklahoma.

Of course not. After all, Oklahoma is Italian for home of the Romans isn't it?

Indians are not unique to Oklahoma.

Another argument where Just the Facts is just throwing crap against the wall to see if it sticks.

Anyway, Native American heritage is a huge part of Oklahoma's heritage. Forced removal to OK makes our history unique. Not sure why you are arguing a point so obvious. Probably just to be a pain...

Indians are not unique to Oklahoma.

Oklahoma has a unique history including the natives.

Of course not. After all, Oklahoma is Italian for home of the Romans isn't it?

Do you really want a list of all the states and cities named after Indians? You guys are trying to sell something that is available in every sq inch of America. No one is going to buy the product when everyone gets it in their own backyard for free.

Do you really want a list of all the states and cities named after Indians? You guys are trying to sell something that is available in every sq inch of America. No one is going to buy the product when everyone gets it in their own backyard for free.

Are you joking or a joke? READ A HISTORY BOOK! American Indians were forced from across the US to OKLAHOMA! How can you not get the historical significance for our state?

Do you really want a list of all the states and cities named after Indians? You guys are trying to sell something that is available in every sq inch of America. No one is going to buy the product when everyone gets it in their own backyard for free.

Boondoggle. Lmao.

Do you really want a list of all the states and cities named after Indians? You guys are trying to sell something that is available in every sq inch of America. No one is going to buy the product when everyone gets it in their own backyard for free.
So thats why tourists come to the state every year and spend millions just to see something they could see for free at home. OK, you win.

Are you joking or a joke? READ A HISTORY BOOK! American Indians were forced from across the US to OKLAHOMA! How can you not get the historical significance for our state?

You are assuming he can read and understand. LOL

Do you really want a list of all the states and cities named after Indians? You guys are trying to sell something that is available in every sq inch of America. No one is going to buy the product when everyone gets it in their own backyard for free.

You are making pehaps the best argument for why we need the AICCM.

You are making pehaps the best argument for why we need the AICCM.

wow, spot on.

You guys are hopeless on this subject. Not every tribe in America was forced marched to Oklahoma. Heck, not even every tribe in Oklahoma was forced there. There are a 807 Indian tribes in America and you guys think you have market cornered. Have you guys ever traveled outside Oklahoma? Did you visit any local Indian tribes on your out-of-state trips? If not, why not? And going to their casino doesn't count.

It's funny, every time someone I know or someone from work comes here from out of town, one of the first things they always reference is our Native American culture and they ask about museums, etc. of that nature. People are always surprised to learn that the closest thing we have is the cowboy museum. I can almost see the thought behind their eyes, something along the lines of 'isn't that Texas' thing....' It is beyond bizarre to me that we don't have any cultural places here that celebrate the one thing we are probably most widely known for.

I don't know if this is still part of the deal, but at one time I read that this museum was going to be a part of the Smithsonian Institution. If that is still planned that is a fantastic boon for us. People who are museum-goers are going to want to go to this museum simply based on its association with the Smithsonian.

Not having a Native American museum in OKC is just a gigantic tourism and marketing disaster.

You guys are hopeless on this subject. Not every tribe in America was forced marched to Oklahoma. Heck, not even every tribe in Oklahoma was forced there. There are a 807 Indian tribes in America and you guys think you have market cornered. Have you guys ever traveled outside Oklahoma? Did you visit any local Indian tribes on your out-of-state trips? If not, why not? And going to their casino doesn't count.

Yes. Several states and Canada.

It's funny, every time someone I know or someone from work comes here from out of town, one of the first things they always reference is our Native American culture and they ask about museums, etc. of that nature. People are always surprised to learn that the closest thing we have is the cowboy museum.

There are Indian cultural centers all over the state.

http://500nations.com/Oklahoma_Tribes.asp

There are Indian cultural centers all over the state.

http://500nations.com/Oklahoma_Tribes.asp

Which is why I specifically said the city of OKC. Not everyone from out of town wants to go driving for hours and hours out into the boondocks. And none of them are Smithsonians.

Do you wonder why none of the local OKC tribes have built a cultural center? Find the answer to that question and then you can explain to your out-of-town guest why we don't have any Indian cultural centers in OKC.

Nah, drop some funds over Tulsa way and I suspect this cultural project will also "pop" in available funds.

Of course, I mean our project is NOWHERE near as important as yours. We just thought we'd throw that in there to be difficult.

I agree that this project needs to be finished, but Tulsa cannot be put on the backburner every time. OKC and Tulsa should both get their museums, but that does not mean that all funds must be spent on OKC's and then Tulsa wait another decade before the Pop museum is once again considered.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to see this museum opened. I will definitely visit it, but I am getting sick of certain people from OKC thinking that the Oklahoma Pop Museum is unimportant. What you guys are saying on this thread is very similar to what is said in Tulsa about the proposed Pop museum.

You guys are hopeless on this subject. Not every tribe in America was forced marched to Oklahoma. Heck, not even every tribe in Oklahoma was forced there. There are a 807 Indian tribes in America and you guys think you have market cornered. Have you guys ever traveled outside Oklahoma? Did you visit any local Indian tribes on your out-of-state trips? If not, why not? And going to their casino doesn't count.

Oklahoma was the center of American Indian culture in the world after the removal. There were more Natives here than anywhere else. Per capita it wasn't even close. Your argument is like saying, "I saw a native New Yorker in Florida, why would I need to go to NYC to see what New York is like." You are beyond hopeless on this subject and about 90% of other subjects you post on. You just talk without ever knowing what you're talking about.

Do you wonder why none of the local OKC tribes have built a cultural center? Find the answer to that question and then you can explain to your out-of-town guest why we don't have any Indian cultural centers in OKC.
Maybe for the similar reasons "local OKC tribes" haven't built a Casino in the OKC city limits? They build their individual cultural centers within the jurisdiction of that particular tribe. Has any Oklahoma tribe built a cultural center NOT within their "nation"? The one tribe that has proposed a Casino first in Bricktown and then a resort styled complex out near Frontier City is headquartered up near Tulsa. OKC is a good, centralized location to support all of the tribes in the State. As I have said many times before, it can be a win-win for the individual tribes. Rather than pulling visitors from their own centers, the broader one can serve as a marketing tool for them.

Larry you got the right answer - there are not any tribes with ancestral land in OKC, which is why there are not any cultural centers in OKC.

Oklahoma was the center of American Indian culture in the world after the removal.

Keep telling yorself that. Tribes from the Everglades to North Dakota will disagree. BTW - you got your analogy backwards, Oklahoma is trying to claim the cultural heritage of prisoners when they real home is on the East Coast. If you want to learn about Cherokee culture you go to where the tribe lived for 900 years - North Carolina - not where they were imprisoned.

http://www.cherokee-nc.com/

Regardless of who lived where when, the Native American Cultural Center has the opportunity to become another point of interest for visitors and, if finished right, a potential source of pride for Native Americans who live here now. In my opinion, we need to find the funds to finish this. If you want to get down to what the Center would do for us, it gives Oklahoma City one more thing to tout as an attraction for people looking for things to do when they visit. We're woefully lacking in those, compared to some other cities, and this is something unique, something other cities won't have. How nice it would be to have another place to spend an afternoon in Oklahoma City.

I don't disagree with that Betts, but that additional attraction comes at great expenses. We are still talking atleast another $70 million plus on going state funding once it opens. How many more miles of streetcar could we get for $70 million? Could we reach the State Capitol thus connecting the government/medical research/entertainment/business community of Oklahoma? Could the State use that money to replace the federal funding for the Heartland Flyer or to start service to Newton, KS or Tulsa?

Soneone else will have to comment on funding for train service, because I have no expertise in that area. Yes we could run more streetcar line and get to the state capitol, but I doubt the state will give the city that $70 million. Plus, I see downtown development as essentially multidisciplinary. Completing the Native American Cultural Center enhances downtown and river development. The more things we have that bring people downtown and visitors to our city, the more use the streetcar gets and the more sales tax comes in, the more impetus the city has to expand the number of streetcar miles.

Whatever happened to Indian City, U.S.A. in Anadarko?
(And how about that "open air Indian museum" in what used to be Miskelly Park in Choctaw?)

Whatever happened to Indian City, U.S.A. in Anadarko?
(And how about that "open air Indian museum" in what used to be Miskelly Park in Choctaw?)

The Kiowas bought in three or four years ago. It now stands empty and unused.

Hmmmm, Kemo Sabe [OKCNDN] . . . News not good.
Strike me like arrow of Ward Churchill being given membership to wacky, offshoot, tribe in Oklahoma.
Never happen in Wisconsin or Illinois or New Jersey or Minnesota or Dakotas.

http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/oklahoma/

Proactive Potential Offense Disclaimer: I always thought Tonto was the smartest guy in the room--or on the prairie--even as a child.

Hmmmm, Kemo Sabe [OKCNDN] . . . News not good.
Strike me like arrow of Ward Churchill being given membership to wacky, offshoot, tribe in Oklahoma.
Never happen in Wisconsin or Illinois or New Jersey or Minnesota or Dakotas.

http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/oklahoma/

U supposed to be funny or something?

It's attitudes like yours that is most likely the primary reason that the cultural center is not finished or funded.

Let this guy write the welcome statement for visitors since he is so well-rounded in native culture.

U missed the point.
Sorry about that.

State/city should give the partially completed museum and land to whatever tribe can develop it into a massive hotel/casino complex.

Regardless of who lived where when, the Native American Cultural Center has the opportunity to become another point of interest for visitors and, if finished right, a potential source of pride for Native Americans who live here now. In my opinion, we need to find the funds to finish this. If you want to get down to what the Center would do for us, it gives Oklahoma City one more thing to tout as an attraction for people looking for things to do when they visit. We're woefully lacking in those, compared to some other cities, and this is something unique, something other cities won't have. How nice it would be to have another place to spend an afternoon in Oklahoma City.

African Americans were enslaved here from Africa. Does that mean we should ignore their history in the United States also? You just don't get it. It's like talking to a brick wall of ignorance. When the tribes were forced to move here it was (and still is) a tragedy, but they then had to remake their lives and continue their culture here. The tribes were forced to change, but that does not mean that their lives have been meaningless since they arrived - as you keep indicating. Their culture has had a great impact on Oklahomans. I grew up in Tahlequah. Try telling the Cherokees that the Cherokee capitol located there is meaningless. Oklahoma is still where many tribes call home. No state has the per capita number of tribal people as Oklahoma. Please cue up your next ignorant comment, Just the Facts, in 3,2,1...

I think you quoted the wrong post...Betts seems to be on your side.

State/city should give the partially completed museum and land to whatever tribe can develop it into a massive hotel/casino complex.
There are legal reasons standing in the way of that happening (both Federal & State). Doesn't mean it couldn't happen but odds are against it (no pun intended). besides current City leadership (Cornett etc) have been very cool to the suggestion when one was proposed in Bricktown & when the same tribe tried to do it out by Frontier City, they got the same response.

I can see we are getting nowhere fast so let's do this. I'll shut-up and you guys can figure out where to get $70 million.

I can see we are getting nowhere fast so let's do this. I'll shut-up and you guys can figure out where to get $70 million.

Really?

Well, I came across something very interesting while reading the most recent Riverfront Redevelopment Authority agenda (http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=1529&doctype=AGENDA).

In the Director of Development report (http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/cache/2/uresn5juvclkj3am5xrvgw55/134363410022011033127126.PDF) is this paragraph:

The Director of Development has been made aware of a significant
corporate gift toward completion of the American Indian Cultural
Center and Museum. Additional commitments, and public
announcements, can be expected over the coming months. The
Director of Development serves on a committee focused on the
funding needs of the center.

This is probably a good time for folks to start practicing their happy dances.

:kicking: :kicking: :kicking:

There was an article in the DOK yesterday about river events. I believe they said the Italian team was going to visit the National Cowboy Museum because they were interested in cowboy history. I really believe this Native American Cultural Center, when complete, will be a draw of fairly equivalent significance. Those are parts of our culture that are interesting to people from elsewhere, and I've always been firmly in favor of completing the Center, with or without taxpayer dollars.

I read on their site they will be continuing some construction until January, then will need additional funding to go forward.

The good news is they have so much done that interested parties can at least tour and visualize the completed project.

Hope this corporate sponsorship is significant, as they still need a ton of money.

Betts: agree 1000%

Maybe those TV commercials with Frank Keating and Brad Henry had an impact after all.

What commercials are those?

What commercials are those?

I guess you haven't seen them. I saw them several times with both former governor's urging completion of the cultural center.

Right here on Doug's blog: http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

Here is a recent photo.

The shell of the multi-purpose / performance space to the right is almost complete:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/aiccm10311.jpg

Significant corporate gift. Though it obviously could come from out of state, given the recent Finish it campaign which includes former governors from both parties, I'm thinking the referenced announcement is more local.

Devon and Chesapeake already have quite a bit of on the river presence. I could still see it being either one of them. But the center also presents an opportunity for a nice public service splash / atta boy for Continental or Sandridge. My (purely) hunch-o-gram leans toward Continental, but another step up by Chesapeake wouldn't surprise me greatly.

Other thoughts?

I love that this little Devon/CHK rivalry could also draw in SandRidge and Continental, as they both have similar aspirations in terms of growth and attracting the best and brightest in their field.

Both of the new kids are busy with their downtown facilities but I hope they both turn their attention to civic matters just like their two more established competitors.

I could see MidFirst or even American Fidelity getting involved as well. And I know it's outside their faith-based mission, but perhaps the Greens could get behind this project as well.

Why aren't more people excited about this project. It's going to be awesome! :bow:

It's more fun to grip and complain about it now... I'm certain that once it's opens that will change.

Commentary

Point by Kirk Humphreys: State must step up
http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-13350-point-state-must-step-up.html

Counterpoint by Greg Treat: The private sector’s responsibility
http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-13351-counterpoint-the-private-sector’s-responsibility.html

...probably already been suggested: Why can't the American Indians pay for it? Just a tiny percentage of their casino profits could solve the funding issue overnight!

...probably already been suggested: Why can't the American Indians pay for it? Just a tiny percentage of their casino profits could solve the funding issue overnight!

Because most of the tribes don't want to help pay for it. They were already asked and they gave a minimal amount. They seem to be of the opinion that a cultrual center in OKC would detract form their own cultural centers.

That's not what I've heard. A lot of tribes spend a lot of money on their own cultural centers. This is meant for OKC as a tourist attraction. The tribes shouldn't have to pay for it specifically. It's for all Oklahomans.

This is a state of OK project and they never really got buy-in from the tribes, other than to provide some content.

Before this project ever went forward they should have received firm commitments... Now that they are in trouble they are hoping the tribes will bail them out and that isn't happening.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6212/6299972718_b7c9e62d84_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nashcreative/6299972718/)
American Indian Cultural Center (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nashcreative/6299972718/) by nash.zach (http://www.flickr.com/people/nashcreative/), on Flickr

I wonder if anyone will ever step up so this thing will be complete. My dad worked on construction a little while and he said that they were planning on having it complete by 2015.

They hired a new Executive Director in November to raise the needed $80 million.

Their goal is $40 million in private donations (halfway there) then hoping the state will match with another $40 mil.


“We already have $20 million, which is half of what we need,” Wade said, adding that private pledges are kept confidential. “But it's all contingent on the state providing the matching dollars.”

During the last legislative session, lawmakers failed to authorize $40 million in bonds to keep the project moving.
To date, the state has already invested $67.4 million in the project, with the federal government adding another $16.3 million, according to the center's website.

Private contributions, including $5 million provided by Oklahoma tribes, totals $6.7 million.


Read more: http://newsok.com/american-indian-cultural-center-in-oklahoma-city-seeks-private-funding-to-finish-project/article/3633291#ixzz1gzhLGevo

They hired a new Executive Director in November to raise the needed $80 million.

Their goal is $40 million in private donations (halfway there) then hoping the state will match with another $40 mil.

If anyone can do it, Blake Wade can. He was my boss at the Oklahoma Centennial for years. Think- Capitol Dome and probably 350 or so projects funded through his leadership and civic booster Lee Allan Smith.

The political climate is caustic though. It will be a challenge for sure considering the shortage of statesmen. This will definitely be a private effort.