"If we had a light rail line from downtown to the airport, who would use it?"

Maybe all those out of towners coming for conferences and staying in downtown hotels during their stay...nah!

How many people do we average per day in OKC coming and going from conferences? Again, let's get hard data before we commit billions to mass transit.

I am all in favor of a line from downtown to the airport. Self-service airport check-in keyosks could be placed at every train station so when you get to the airport all they have to do is check their bag. If demand grew there could even be a baggage check at a downtown station or in Edmond/Norman. That way a family could travel to the airport and not worry about toting luggage on the train.

If you build it they will come....

Mass Transit will cause a building boom along it. Just look at other cities that have it. The trendy new areas have developed around the mass transit. Look at Salt Lake and Portland.

Again, another topic from another state that has absolutely nothing to do with our city.

I am all in favor of a line from downtown to the airport. Self-service airport check-in keyosks could be placed at every train station so when you get to the airport all they have to do is check their bag. If demand grew there could even be a baggage check at a downtown station or in Edmond/Norman. That way a family could travel to the airport and not worry about toting luggage on the train.

I love the check-in idea, but I believe 9/11 removed check in kiosks at the train stations as an option. Maybe things are becoming more lax again (since the airport now "allows" people to sit in front of it while waiting to pick up passengers - or at least doesn't enforce the rules), but unless rules were loosened, that's not going to happen.

And, I don't think too many people are going to be driving to and parking downtown so they can take the train to the airport. If the train were leaving from near their home, parking were safe and cheap, AND they could check their bags, it would become a popular option, I bet.

I love the check-in idea, but I believe 9/11 removed check in kiosks at the train stations as an option.

Chicago is doing it:
108 North State Street - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_North_State_Street)

Again, another topic from another state that has absolutely nothing to do with our city.

It's also another topic for another thread since having Light Rail in no way requires us to have Union Station railyard.

You can check in at the MARTA Airport station - you can also check your bag. Granted it is on-site at Hartsfield Airport but it is still not part of the normal check-in area.

Again, another topic from another state that has absolutely nothing to do with our city.


If you build it they will come....

Mass Transit will cause a building boom along it. Just look at other cities that have it. The trendy new areas have developed around the mass transit. Look at Salt Lake and Portland.

It does have a lot to do with the growth or lack of growth with this city. It deserve a topic of its own.

Again, another topic from another state that has absolutely nothing to do with our city.

Are you speaking of Midwest City or Oklahoma City . . . not the same place . . . not the same future . . . Midwest City is a nice suburb of OKC adjacent to a major industrial and millitary employer which will someday be connected to Oklahoma City and other surrounding suburbs and small towns by more than streets and highways . . . how long? . . . who knows. Many of the people living in El Reno, Norman, Chickasha, Shawnee etc. who work at Tinker would ride rail transit if it were available. If you seriously believe that they wouldn't, you are simply not touch with reality.

You can check in at the MARTA Airport station - you can also check your bag. Granted it is on-site at Hartsfield Airport but it is still not part of the normal check-in area.

Are they still doing that? They closed the "Kiss and Fly" check in at Hartsfield.

You can check in and print a boarding pass at any computer with internet and printer, so I don't see how having a kiosk is a terror threat.

Nashville: Bargain-Priced Regional "Commuter" Rail Starter Line Project Under Way

Nashville: Regional "Commuter" Rail Starter Line Project (http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_nsh_2005-01.htm)

Of course they would use light rail... if it was convenient.

If we really, truly want to use light rail in this city, and not just make a half-assed attempt at it, throw up our hands, and say "okay, we tried", then we need to do a long term study on the subject. One has not been done.

We have two key issues preventing passenger rail from working in OKC. First, this city is already incredibly accessible by car. This lessens the need to use mass transit. You can find parking downtown and in bricktown very quickly. I lived in Washington DC for 3 years, and the difference between the two cities as far as parking and accessibility by car could not be greater. We need a greater downtown density before this will be needed. Downtown traffic actually needs to be more than a minor annoyance. The second problem is that we have no plan. We don't have any idea where we need to put stations. We've got zero indication as far as where likely passenger depots would need to be placed, or where people want to go. That's why we need a major study. When DC implemented the metro, it was a major project that had input from everyone in the city. We need something of a similar level of public input and planning. We need real numbers, a real plan.

Of course they would use light rail... if it was convenient.

If we really, truly want to use light rail in this city, and not just make a half-assed attempt at it, throw up our hands, and say "okay, we tried", then we need to do a long term study on the subject. One has not been done.

We have two key issues preventing passenger rail from working in OKC. First, this city is already incredibly accessible by car. This lessens the need to use mass transit. You can find parking downtown and in bricktown very quickly. I lived in Washington DC for 3 years, and the difference between the two cities as far as parking and accessibility by car could not be greater. We need a greater downtown density before this will be needed. Downtown traffic actually needs to be more than a minor annoyance. The second problem is that we have no plan. We don't have any idea where we need to put stations. We've got zero indication as far as where likely passenger depots would need to be placed, or where people want to go. That's why we need a major study. When DC implemented the metro, it was a major project that had input from everyone in the city. We need something of a similar level of public input and planning. We need real numbers, a real plan.

THANK YOU! A real plan. What a concept! Or, we could just throw billions of dollars away and wonder why everyone is still in their cars sitting at the train crossing watching empty cars go by.

It should be obvious by now that you're not going to get a "real plan" from special interest dominated bureaucrats protecting their puppetmasters' places at the public trough. The public will have to demand better. But I wouldn't expect that from any member of the public who thinks destroying our tremendous existing rail assets is somehow helpful.

TOM ELMORE

But I wouldn't expect that from any member of the public who thinks destroying our tremendous existing rail assets is somehow helpful.

You sound like George W. Bush. Everything is not black and white. Just because some are against keeping the entire railyard does not mean they are against passenger rail in general.

Of course, you are correct. History is full of examples.

Chamberlain claimed to be for "peace in his own time."

He evidently just didn't understand what was required to achieve it -- and apparently hated those who did.

One of those said, "The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it, ignorance may deride it, malice may distort it, but there it is." He also said, "It is better to be making the news than taking it; to be an actor rather than a critic."

TOM ELMORE

Another reason commuter rail and subways work in other cities is the high cost of owning and operating a car. I've lived in a few big cities with extensive subway systems. In some of these cities, it cost a small fortune to park your car in your building, at your office, and anywhere you might go. I had to pay to park at the grocery store, the mall, the movie theater, even restaurants. And it wasn't a token payment either - for example, my grocery store charged $5.00 per visit, and my condo charged $300.00 per month for a single stall.

In addition to parking, the cost of auto insurance in these cities is obscene. I paid more per year for minimum legal coverage in Toronto than I paid for my car.

Last, but not least, the roads in these cities are clogged with traffic. In Atlanta, Dallas, Toronto, New York, Chicago, etc., there is great incentive to take the subway in order to avoid traffic.

I am totally in favor of light-rail, streetcars, commuter rail, or whatever you may call it in OKC. It spurs development and adds tremendously to the character of the urban environment by getting people out of their cars. It is also a great alternative to those of us wishing to leave our cars behind. Unfortunately, OKC cannot defend against all the arguments above. We must look to mass transit as a tool to move toward a better future rather than as a solution to current problems.

What does this have to do with Union Station? Nothing - I just had to get this out there.

Bingo.

World-class cities have world-class transportation systems. In those cities, there are choices.

I noted the "Park - $10" sign on a lot just south of the Crosstown not far from the Ford Center yesterday.

$10.

A day pass on the DART system is $3.

Does the DFW Metroplex have a world class transit system?

Perhaps not yet. But they have a tremendous start -- and they got that start by using their existing Union Station and a set of long standing railway corridors.

We plant trees so that our grandchildren will have shade. That those seedlings and saplings won't provide that shade tomorrow -- or support swings or treehouses -- is not a reason not to plant them. So it is with modern transit. We just happen to be blessed with the best set of existing assets in the West. Our leaders are plainly determined -- hell-bent, in fact -- to destroy them. Are we wise and far-sighted enough to fight for them and to use them effectively?

TOM ELMORE

Thank you for the planting trees reference. You see, I'm more in favor of trees than trains, parks than railyards (in downtown, that is).

A walkable city is a more laudable concept than building transit so that people can live far away, and we have to spend precious energy getting them to where they want to go. Dallas is an example of poor city planning and massive suburban sprawl. Do we want to emulate them? Move to downtown OKC Mr. Elmore, and you'll get more of my attention.

If we make our downtown so usable and enjoyable to spend time in that people want to live near it, our mass transit options broaden and cheapen considerably.

If you understand the "trees" reference, you should surely understand the need to develop the rail facility we have instead of allowing those who care for neither to destroy both.

A walkable city absolutely hinges on transit -- and its essential vitality depends on mobility. Even indifferent students of New Urbanism understand this -- as does anybody who has considered youth, old age and disability as something other than "anomolies." If you live long enough, some of these things are quite likely to happen to you. Why do you insist on "building a house you won't be able to live in later in your life?"

The "people who live far away" that you mention are your fellow Oklahomans -- who deserve something better than "what's left" after the life is sucked out of their own rural homes and/or communities by the metropolitan big shots for the benefit of their own, narrow vision of "the good life." Without the life that goes on in those places, I doubt that urban life would be possible at all.

Oklahoma City is the capital city of their state, too. The money that purchased Union Station and the state-owned railway network and that pays for other state and federal public infrastructure comes as much from them, individually, as from you.

I would urge you to recognize that the unbelievably narrow focus you express is one of the reasons a state that should be among the greatest in the nation is 46th in per capita income --behind Arkansas and New Mexico -- and, yes, fading. We can do much, much better than this, and that better situation is possible simply by valuing and intelligently using resources and assets we already have -- instead of allowing a bunch of bloodless, debt-loving bureaucrats to maliciously destroy them.

I'm an Oklahoman. Oklahoma is my home. I value every acre of it and every human life in it. It seems to me that part of the job of our state capital city is to serve us -- all of us. If Oklahoma City does so, it will become the truly great city we'd all like to see.

TOM ELMORE

Nope. Trees are beautiful, peaceful, restful. Railyards are the antithesis of trees. A walkable city hinges on having somewhere to walk, on there being places worth walking to, on there being reasons to live downtown. Oklahoma City is the capital of the state, its' true. But, it's those who actually live in Oklahoma City who should be able to choose what we do with our land, what our vision for our city is. I am an Oklahoma Cityan, and I want to have a say in what is done with my home. Again, no one is saying we shouldn't have commercial rail. It's where that rail is located that is in question. No one is talking about destroying anything that isn't already half destroyed and unused.

I'd like to know just how many people in those small towns care whether Union Station exists as a railyard, especially as a commercial railyard. How many people per day are we talking about from all those small towns who actually want to come to downtown Oklahoma City? Not Tinker, not the casinos in Shawnee, but people who want to come to downtown Oklahoma City to work or recreate. Per day. Data, please.

"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot". Joni Mitchell. I'd like to unpave it and make it paradise again.

Bingo.

World-class cities have world-class transportation systems. In those cities, there are choices.

I noted the "Park - $10" sign on a lot just south of the Crosstown not far from the Ford Center yesterday.

$10.

A day pass on the DART system is $3.

Does the DFW Metroplex have a world class transit system?

Perhaps not yet. But they have a tremendous start -- and they got that start by using their existing Union Station and a set of long standing railway corridors.

We plant trees so that our grandchildren will have shade. That those seedlings and saplings won't provide that shade tomorrow -- or support swings or treehouses -- is not a reason not to plant them. So it is with modern transit. We just happen to be blessed with the best set of existing assets in the West. Our leaders are plainly determined -- hell-bent, in fact -- to destroy them. Are we wise and far-sighted enough to fight for them and to use them effectively?

TOM ELMORE

Our transportation system is fantastic. It just isn't the type of transportation you want. Yes, it is $10 to park near the Ford Center. But you know, I work downtown. Some people in my office pay $100 every 3 months to park in a parking garage one block from the office. I'm cheap, so I walk an extra block and park for free on a side street.

Got that? Two blocks from downtown, free parking. During the week. When I lived in DC, I'd have murdered a family to get free parking two blocks from school. You really just have no comprehension of the difference in what it is to live in a city where mass transit is the only feasible transportation option available.

You believe in this great conspiracy, that ODOT is purposefully destroying any chance at rail service in OKC because they're in the pocket of some shadowy organization of, I don't know, asphalt companies or something. Fine. Let's go with that. You know that even if you have trillions of dollars come down into the state budget, with God himself carrying down bags of money and placing them into the hands of the state legislature, telling them that these must be used to build a light rail system in Oklahoma City, you know that ODOT is still going to be the ones responsible for establishing that, don't you? You know that no matter what, they're the ones who are going to build it, right? You don't trust them. You don't trust them to do a feasibility study on rail service or to create a plan.

There's one problem. You don't have a plan either. Nobody has a plan. You don't trust the one organization that has the capabilities to create a plan, yet you want us to give that same organization literally hundreds of millions of dollars to implement that plan they don't have and you don't trust them to make.

You got a problem here, Tom. You don't trust very people who would implement your plan (if you had one, which you don't). You don't trust them to create a plan, but you don't have one either. But you want us to disrupt the one plan they do have (I-40 reconstruction) because you want them to implement the plan you don't have and don't trust them to create.

Uh, negatory on the 'OKC = fantastic transit system claim'. As a side hobby I work at the OKC airport and have been with four airlines. The most complaints I hear with regard to transportation are the puzzled look on people's faces when they learn we have nothing to get them out of the airport to where they're going. As I fly for free, I frequently visit other cities weekly and they are right. (ie Atlanta/Marta where you walk right on at the terminal) We should have a big sign welcoming people right after they leave the terminal that says: "GOING SOMEWHERE? CRACK OPEN YA WALLET!" with a picture of the taxi driver snatching a wad of bills out of their hands. Ok, so enough with that tangent...

----

Guys, we have got to stop measuring our success by looking at what others are doing! Having said that, we should always learn from others' mistakes and successes. If you go back to the time when that union station was actually in use, the mindsets were much different different. Heck, look! They built all of that infrastructure and railroad for a purpose. My grandfather was recalling to me yesterday of the times when their family would go down to take the train and how neat it was all set-up (not to mention how cheap it was).

Now, forget the union station for now, I am not defending nor attacking it. All I am focused on is the mindset, since people had to break their backs for every dollar that they earned, they were very careful to spend what little they had wisely. Many people here forget that this area originally had to watch every dollar that they spent and thus became much more wise in their decision-making. Some people here have argued how much cheaper parking is here than in D.C. or other large cities. That's not the point! This is Oklahoma City, our city, not Washington DC. If we can reduce our expenses by devising new systems and ideas that save the public here money, then we have a lot to brag about.

We must end this beating back-and-forth as it has no function. There is nothing to gain from it. What there is, unlike some places, are a lot of people here that underestimate their ability to contribute to this stuff. Folks, some of you speak of beating plans out of others and whether you realize it or not--a plan, any plan--devised by one individual is going to suck! Myself included. What we should do, since most on here believe that no good plan exists, and our local government is busy playing dukes of hazzard, is devise a master plan with individual areas of study. Each part of the plan can be assigned to a group to do the research and discuss/debate, weed out all of the no-brainers, and present the viable options. Then, as a whole, lets bring this thing together, deciding on the best of the options, focusing on our goals, which include: cost-benefit, efficiency, safety, etc... :fighting4

Whether or not union station plays a part or not, who knows...this plan must be put together and now. Let me tell you--from what I have seen, there is a hell of a lot more potential coming from the people on this forum than there is from the same ol' back-scratching wheelers and dealers (that think they're still in the old west) in the city/county/state. Those folks are like the bully in gradeschool--they bought their completed homework! Well, we dont shine too well to the rest of the country when we 'bought our homework'.

One thing is for sure, that this has to be right on the money. People here are ten times harder to please/convince than in other areas of the country. We've got to get this thing so right the first time that people are not only on-board with it, but other parts of the country start looking back here asking how we achieved so much for what we spent. To that we would simply tell them that it is designed by the people and our people dont like wasting money.

Now before you demand to see my plan, I will tell you that, yes I have put together a plan for this, but I dont think that is the solution. I would be happy to share it and glad to look at yours, but that is not the solution. There may be ideas, but we've got to get this thing right, unlike so many projects around here.


Having said that, how many of you here would be willing to volunteer any portion of your time to painting a piece of this plan--possibly create a focus group that meets regularly to get this thing knocked out? I'm not talking just concept and cool sketches. I'm talking start-to-finish. I'm talking forgetting about the track, trains, buses and stations for a moment and mining all of our traffic data and generating data for areas in the community (ie deeper into neighborhoods) that have yet to be looked at so that we can 'see' exactly where people are originating and terminating, and on what scale. I'm talking analyzing that data so that we can build the most efficient system and cut out every millisecond of unnecessary transit time and every unnecessary penny of expense. I'm talking a whole group solely dedicated to the best marketing plan. Keep in mind that this study could include with it's outcome, ways to fix bottlenecks in our roadways as well as we will see those as we are analyzing the data.



END OF RANT #1


Let me know.

Steve


:sofa:

Steve, never bring only logic to a NIMBY fight. It could be dangerous. :)

I'd be more than willing to contribute my time to working on a plan, or even making suggestions. That is precisely what I would like to see done.

How many people in Oklahoma City would truly be willing to give up their cars and the convenience they provide to ride mass transit? What kind of gas prices and parking prices make increased numbers of people willing to consider it?

How many people in OKC work in which locations? Are there clusters that are large enough to justify the expense of mass transit like light rail? Were people to take rail from the airport, what kind of numbers would we need to make it cost effective, and where would the majority of those people want to go? How many people going to and from the airport would actually prefer mass transit over driving themselves and/or using a taxi or airport limo?

How can we get them to those locations the most cheaply and efficiently?


What kind of transit time to work or other locations are they willing to accept?

What do they think about changing modes of transit or vehicles to complete a route? What kind of wait time between changes is acceptable?

Where would any light rail actually even be feasible from a right of way standpoint? If we were to have light rail, would we work on a north-south line, see the public response to it and usage, or do we think an east-west line would generate more traffic?

What kind of cost are we talking about to build light rail as compared to a bus and trolley system?

Are we willing to provide bus and trolley service from every light rail stop?

What kinds of things is Oklahoma City willing to provide to support walkability between retail centers in areas like Memorial Road, or is that never going to happen? If it's not, how many stops would we need to create a route people would actually use?

There's a start. I'd like to know the answers to all of those questions, especially before voting billions of dollars in taxes. I'm moving to where I can walk to work, so unless I can take a train to the OU football games in Norman, I'm not sure where light rail would go that I would want to go. It's not going to get me to the Homeland store on 22nd and Classen. Or Penn Square Mall. Or the Starbucks in Nichols Hills Plaza. Or Classen Curve or any of the restaurants I frequent. How about other people? Where would light rail take you that you want to go? Just curious.

It's not going to get me to the Homeland store on 22nd and Classen. Or Penn Square Mall. Or the Starbucks in Nichols Hills Plaza. Or Classen Curve or any of the restaurants I frequent.

I would think a potential light rail system would very likely run all around downtown and midtown and also up Classen to the Penn/Belle Isle/Nichols Hills Plaza area.

Hey guys,

Seems like the idea is getting some good initial feedback...i'm impressed.

kevinpate- ya, that's me...the one throwing the slab of fresh meat into the pack of wolves and waiting safely on the other side of the fence to see how wild it gets!

betts- those are exactly the type of issues we need to get on the table. very detailed--I like it! I do want to touch on one thing though. I really do think that if we are gonna get a strong enough ridership that this system IS GOING to have to get you to all of those places and faster than by car and only in worst case scenarios, having you step foot onto a bus. Maybe transferring from the rail onto bus for those exotic 'last mile' destinations, like a 10-seat coffee shop or specialty store or some place that not a lot of people go to--at least not enough to justify rail service. Let's see what we can put together as far as the group and get all these great ideas on the table.

Steve

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I really think buses have a negative image they don't deserve. When I lived in Denver, I used the bus almost exclusively. It was rare that I drove downtown, primarily because of parking issues. Actually, what I really did was walk down Colfax, and if the bus came before I got where I was going, I took it. If not, I walked. Buses are incredibly flexible. They can go anywhere there's a street. Routes can be easily changed. Schedules can be changed easily. Our bus system here is horrible, but that's our fault, and we could change the public perception if our civic leaders really wanted to.

We would need attractive, covered bus stops, frequent buses and extensive routes. Buses are a necessary supplement, even if you have light rail, IMO. People in New York and Chicago don't scorn the bus. We shouldn't either.

ya, when I would transfer off the marta rail to bus for that 'last mile' to my shop north of atlanta (in alpharetta), the bus was not all that bad.

I think the big thing here is that, obviously the buses are part of the traffic...in with people driving cars. People can be slow here and congestion happens. I had a bus trip from south okc to the northwest side take almost four hours!!!

So ya, I see your point and I do agree that it is always going to have to be there and is just as critical as the rail portion that it be made efficient.



Steve

Will this thread ever end? Can we not complain about the Thunder logo instead?

Are you speaking of Midwest City or Oklahoma City . . . not the same place . . . not the same future . . . Midwest City is a nice suburb of OKC adjacent to a major industrial and millitary employer which will someday be connected to Oklahoma City and other surrounding suburbs and small towns by more than streets and highways . . . how long? . . . who knows. Many of the people living in El Reno, Norman, Chickasha, Shawnee etc. who work at Tinker would ride rail transit if it were available. If you seriously believe that they wouldn't, you are simply not touch with reality.

I'm speaking of OKC, not MWC. The main argument remains though even if the lines are built. People have to have stop near enough their destinations for them to walk. Simply placing a stop at a Tinker gate would not suffice. You realize that place is larger than most of the suburbs in the OKC area?

Next time you want to call me out of touch, try getting some deatils on the statement first.:beaten_fi

. . . . People have to have stop near enough their destinations for them to walk. Simply placing a stop at a Tinker gate would not suffice. You realize that place is larger than most of the suburbs in the OKC area?

Next time you want to call me out of touch, try getting some deatils on the statement first.:beaten_fi

I have worked on that base and know how much area it covers. If there were fixed rail stops planned for each of the Tinker gates, the base would then undertake an on-base fuel efficient transportation system to deliver people to their work locations. This would also act as a circulator system for employees to make trips to other buildings who could do so without getting into a vehicle.

It's not difficult to imagine how much surface parking could be eliminated and how much energy savings could be accomplished by adding mass transit at an installation like this. Congress should direct the federal government to take a leadership roll in promoting mass transit for public transportaion and on large facilities like Tinker rather than acting as water-boys for the highway construction lobby.

The citizens of Oklahoma are no different than those in the balance of the country. They will use mass transit when it is comfortable, convenient, readily available and in their interest to do so.

Uh, negatory on the 'OKC = fantastic transit system claim'. As a side hobby I work at the OKC airport and have been with four airlines. The most complaints I hear with regard to transportation are the puzzled look on people's faces when they learn we have nothing to get them out of the airport to where they're going.

We do have an excellent transportation system, for most purposes. You'll get no argument from me that our mass transit sucks, but for meeting the needs of the people who live in OKC? It works very well. And we do have car rental places at the airport, so it's not like they're stuck there with no way to leave.

If you want to get mass transit in OKC, we've got a lot of work to do.

First, look at the barriers. We have too much parking downtown. There are enough spaces for everyone who works downtown to drive their own vehicle. I can park for free only two blocks from the office. Parking in a garage is fairly cheap. If we want people to take mass transit downtown, we need to make it more difficult to simply drive there and park. That means either destroying our current parking infrastructure or getting a lot more people downtown and not building any more.

A clean, efficient, reliable bus system will probably be the first step. You'll need to convince Oklahomans that mass transit doesn't suck. The bus system is the obvious choice, as you can change the bus routes without having to worry about where train tracks run. You can experiment and see where high concentrations of people live, where they work, and when they travel. At the moment, do any of us even know how many people work downtown each day? How many of those live in Edmond? How many in Norman? How many in the Mid-Del area? As far as I know, there is no information on that. We need to know those things before we start laying down rail lines.

A bus system needs to be fast and efficient. It needs to be competitive with driving. At the moment, it is not. With our large streets and minimal commute times, driving in OKC is very efficient. This means we need well planned routes to places people want to go. Once we have enough information as far as who uses mass transit, where they live, where they need to go, and how often they use it, we can start looking at a more static system like a light rail.

My "dream" suggestion for that would be to have a system that services the area within the I-40 I-240 "loop" around the city. Major stops would include downtown, Bricktown, St Anthony hospital, OU Medical Center, the Capitol, Penn Square, the Zoo area, Baptist hospital, and the fairgrounds (as well as a a stop or two allowing access to the Core to Shore area). The goal would be for someone to be able to make it from any of the above places to any other location within 20 minutes. You could also have lines that stretched out beyond this circle area and went up to Edmond, down to Norman, over to the airport, and over to Tinker. The goal is both usability and to promote future growth. I'd prefer to have an actual subway system if possible, with most of the stations (at least in currently high density areas) located underground, while much of the actual track itself could run above ground through areas that didn't have a huge amount of development.

The problem with OKC is that there's really no change in population density from when you are inside the city to when you hit the suburbs. Ideally, the city itself (and by that, I mean the area inside the I-40 loop) would grow in density enough to make rail travel worthwhile. The outlying portions of the city (i.e., the rest of it and the suburbs), simply are too spread out to make regular travel feasible. No one is going to take the train from Reno and Sunnylane in Del City to Tinker, when they could drive it in 5 minutes. Suburbs need to feel like suburbs, while the city itself feels like a city.

FOR RELEASE OCTOBER 27, 2008

ONTRAC PRESS RELEASE

For more information, contact:

Marion Hutchison

Communications Director


Dr. Charles Wesner

Chair, Political Director

info@ontracok.org


ODOT Trying to Derail Union Station Efforts

Norman, OK – Oklahomans for New Transportation Alternatives Coalition (OnTrac) learned last week that officials from the Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT) have initiated an aggressive misinformation campaign directed at central Oklahoma municipalities in an effort to derail the growing number of resolutions supporting OnTrac’s efforts to preserve the Oklahoma City Union Station terminal facility as an intermodal rail transit hub for the region.

Last Monday, OnTrac representatives received a copy of a letter sent to numerous central Oklahoma mayors by ODOT Director Gary Ridley advising them not to pass resolutions concerning Union Station’s rail yard without first allowing ODOT officials to meet with them. Mr. Ridley goes on to claim that OnTrac’s proposal to shift the central one-half mile section of the new Crosstown slightly to the south “will probably destroy the Little Flower Church, Latino Community Development Organization, Neighborhood Services Organization and Wheeler Park”. OnTrac Communications Director Marion Hutchison said that Mr. Ridley’s statement is simply not true and appears to be an attempt to use misinformation to undermine OnTrac’s proposal.

“Shifting the that segment of the Crosstown 250 feet south as we have proposed does not impact those facilities”, Mr. Hutchison said. “The only property directly affected is land immediately south of the rail yard which has already been purchased and cleared by ODOT.”

In his letter, Mr. Ridley also claims that “any shift in the alignment would result in a 5 to 8 year delay in the project with an added cost of $240-$340 million”. OnTrac Executive Board Member Tom Sherman said that Mr. Ridley’s figures are so inflated they are not even credible.

“ODOT is preparing to widen and rebuild nearly 7 miles of I-35 through Norman from Indian Hills Road to the Canadian River bridge, including new overpasses and exchanges at Main Street, Lindsey and Highway 9 for $108 million”, he said. “I find Mr. Ridley’s excessive cost claims for shifting this small section of the Crosstown to be completely out of line.”

Mr. Hutchison said that in fact OnTrac had recently received cost estimates from reputable bridge and highway engineers familiar with the new Crosstown indicating OnTrac’s proposal would add less than $40 million to the total cost of the more than $600 million dollar project. Mr. Hutchison said the additional cost is a bargain compared to what it would cost to try to reproduce the Union Station terminal facility at some other location in the future, if that could be done at all. He also said that OnTrac had discussed the issue of time delays due to Environmental Impact Study (EIS) requirements with several environmental attorneys and that OnTrac’s proposed alternative could be quickly reviewed and processed as a simple Amended EIS in a matter of months, not years.

Ridley also claims in his letter that “all possible future I-40 alternatives from the current I-40 south to the Oklahoma River were evaluated during the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) process from 1996 to 2002”. OnTrac Executive Board Chair Charles Wesner said that statement of Mr. Ridley’s is also not accurate, as evidenced by the alternatives provided for in the EIS, as well as Mr. Ridley’s own public statements.

“Just three weeks ago before the Oklahoma State Senate Transportation Committee, Mr. Ridley stated very matter-of-factly that ODOT had not previously looked at our proposed alternative”, Dr. Wesner said. “For him to now suggest otherwise goes against his own testimony.”

In addition to Mr. Ridley’s written attempt to undermine OnTrac’s efforts, OnTrac Executive Board members learned on Friday that ODOT officials recently contacted city leaders in El Reno, Chickasha and Shawnee to request that their city councils and commission rescind the Union Station resolutions that had been previously adopted. OnTrac representatives were in contact Monday with Shawnee, Chickasha and El Reno officials and received assurances those communities would not take any action to reconsider their resolutions of support at this time.

However, in what amounted to a political ambush, ODOT officials and engineers showed up in force Monday evening at Shawnee’s City Commission meeting in an attempt to get Shawnee’s resolution rescinded even though city commissioners and OnTrac representatives were told that transportation officials would not be attending the meeting and that consideration of rescinding Shawnee’s Union Station resolution would be postponed. ODOT’s tactics did not payoff though, as OnTrac Executive Board Chair Charles Wesner, former State Representative and Corporation Commissioner Jim Townsend, Shawnee Sustainability Network President Shauna Turner and others were in attendance and able to counter ODOT’s efforts. Shawnee officials did not back down. By a 5-2 vote, Shawnee City Commissioner’s defeated a motion to rescind their Union Station resolution. OnTrac Executive Board member and State Representative Wallace Collins said that he was disturbed by ODOT’s tactics, but not surprised.

“This is nothing new for ODOT”, Rep. Collins said. “Four years ago when Norman’s city council tried to pass a similar resolution to preserve Union Station, ODOT officials intimidated enough members of council to get the resolution defeated. This time around, however, Norman made it clear that interference by ODOT will not be tolerated and I’m glad to see Shawnee has sent the same message. There’s just no place for this type of coercion in municipal business and the democratic process by state officials.”

Rep. Collins said he urged other community leaders who were considering joining in support of OnTrac’s efforts not to be dissuaded by ODOT’s misinformation campaign or intimidated by their actions.

In a further development on Wednesday, Governor Brad Henry’s office issued a statement saying that based on information provided by ODOT officials, the Governor has no plans to discuss altering the new Crosstown route. Paul Sund, Governor Henry’s Communication Director, provided statements to the media which indicates the Governor is relying on the same misinformation contained in ODOT Director Gary Ridley’s recent letter to area mayors. Mr. Hutchison said it appears the Governor is willing to make this critical decision based solely on faulty, one-sided arguments without giving serious consideration to OnTrac’s very viable alternative.

“ODOT officials are telling the Governor that nothing has changed since the original routing decision was made”, Mr. Hutchison said. “I would argue that high fuel costs, new EPA ozone requirements, and greater public demand for alternative forms of transportation have certainly changed things. More importantly, OnTrac has developed a workable alternative alignment for the Crosstown that saves the Union Station terminal facility and its rail connections and that ODOT officials admit they never previously considered.”

Mr. Hutchison said it would be unfortunate for the citizens of central Oklahoma if the Governor was unwilling to meet with OnTrac representatives and review their proposal.

“We have met with municipal and community leaders in Shawnee, Norman, Edmond, Oklahoma City, Midwest City, El Reno, Choctaw, Harrah and Chickasha, as well as with current and former Oklahoma State Legislators, and in almost every case have received strong support for our proposal”, Mr. Hutchison said. “These are educated, experienced, well-informed professionals. For our proposal to be so well-received by so many local and state leaders, you would certainly think the Governor would want to have the benefit of the same information before making any final determination. We still hope that he will provide us with that opportunity.”
###

OnTrac is an Oklahoma non-profit public interest organization representing more than 1000 members throughout the state whose mission is to ensure Oklahoma’s rail transit future.

Please visit our website at: OnTrac (http://www.OnTracOK.org)

And here I was thinking OnTrac was using misinformation schemes...... Sauce for the goose?

And here I was thinking OnTrac was using misinformation schemes...... Sauce for the goose?

An even better question: How come TOM ELMORE isn't the Communications Director for OffTrac?

OETA had a story about ONTRAC tonight on their 6:30 news show. I sense the grassroots are building up a challenge to ODOT.

Why do we need more multi lane interstates when vehicle miles driven are decreasing?

“We have met with municipal and community leaders in Shawnee, Norman, Edmond, Oklahoma City, Midwest City, El Reno, Choctaw, Harrah and Chickasha, as well as with current and former Oklahoma State Legislators, and in almost every case have received strong support for our proposal”, Mr. Hutchison said. “These are educated, experienced, well-informed professionals. For our proposal to be so well-received by so many local and state leaders, you would certainly think the Governor would want to have the benefit of the same information before making any final determination. We still hope that he will provide us with that opportunity.”

Then let them put their money where there mouth is. I'd like to see these communities fund the studies we need. How many people from these communities would actually use this rail to go to downtown Oklahoma City? Daily. How much money are they willing to contribute to the project were rail to be an option? Or is this a "rail sounds cool, as long as Oklahoma City or someone else is paying for it" and "We don't really know how many people would actually use it, but it makes us sound 'green' and trendy."

How many of these people are being told by OnTrac that Union Station is going to be "destroyed"?

By the way -- the contention of some on this forum that I insist on somehow transforming OKC Union Station into a heavy, intermodal container yard of some kind is a complete misapprehension of how expedited mail and express freight was always handled at every passenger depot in the nation prior to 1967 -- and how it could be handled at these facilities again.

Passenger train-borne Mail and Express was a truly neat, innovative and flexible business. They moved the First Class Mail -- with clerks, each packing .38 revolver sidearm, hand-sorting and hand-canceling letters en route. (All Railway Post Office clerks were certified with their firearms. They were quite serious about the security of the Mail. The clerks were also expert with Thompson Submachineguns, sometimes issued for special payrolls and other extra-security cargoes.)

They moved daily package express, with express agents at small town depots meeting the public across station counters -- and those deep green "Railway Express" trucks with the Camel and Lucky Strke billboards on the sides covering every community, farm, creek road and backwater across the nation from the trackside depots. UPS is actually a direct corporate descendent of the old REA, "Railway Express Agency."

But they also moved very special loads like carload seafood inland from the coasts in refrigerated express cars. They moved show horses in special "Horse Express" cars with big, floor-to-ceiling, clamshell doors in both ends. (Read in local author and Mustang Head Librarian Desiree Morrison Webber's book, "The Buffalo Train Ride," how the Wichita Game Preserve was repopulated with American Bison -- brought from the Bronx Zoo in Horse Express Cars -- one month prior to statehood in 1907.) It wasn't "bulk freight." It was very special, very personal, expedited handling. They could literally move anything -- and did, in large measure because each small-town depot had its own company station agent who lived in the community, knew the business environment and was always thinking, quite independently, of the best ways his company could serve his neighbors.

I read of a man who rode his new motorcycle out west and then took the limited express passenger trains back home, big bike safely stowed in a head-end Baggage-Express car. (Heck -- you can't even take your dog or cat on an Amtrak train, which is just one of the reasons "I can't use 'em much...") Knowing some of the great, great Santa Fe station agents and even an Express Agent or two as I did when I was a kid, I can see him (or in some cases, "her,") never even blinking as the request was made. The railroads could do anything, and did -- every day. They were, truly, "general transportation agencies."

We need that spirit in Oklahoma again. With that spirit, encouraged and supported by leadership, we could reinvent American transportation, "Oklahoma style."

I think there must have even been a package express service on some of our Interurban trains.

Think about the possibilities.

Have you ever walked through the OKC Union Station Express and Mail Rooms?

It's an amazing place.

TOM ELMORE

There's nothing intrinsically noble about transporting mail. Let's set up a rail museum in Union Station to glorify all the old uses for rail. That, I think would be cool, and that would attract visitors. It doesn't mean it's practical to go back to the thirties and use rail like it was, or even that it's desirable. Unless you make airplanes and cars go away, and I seriously doubt that's going to happen in the near future, rail is going to be a novelty. How many people took the Heartland Flyer to Dallas to go to the OU-Texas game? How many peope drove? That data should be available.

We're trying to reinvent Oklahoma City. But, that reinvention needs to include downtown parks, retail and housing. Transportation, especially to and from small cities in Oklahoma City, is not going to reinvent Oklahoma City, unless you think we're going to have thousands of people from Shawnee and El Reno coming into Oklahoma City daily to shop and work. If so, where's your data? Not people coming in to Tinker from Shawnee to work.....that doesn't help downtown OKC. Not going to Shawnee to go to the casinos....that doesn't help downtown OKC. I haven't seen how much money all these little cities are willing to contribute anywhere either. If they're the primary beneficiaries, they need to be showing us the money.

Anyone who says they're trying to reinvent OKC can NOT be in favor of redecking the Crosstown, or maintaining it in its' current location. I understand that OnTrac has figured out that idea was way off base, but the fact that it was even being mentioned a few months ago shows that reinvention of OKC was never the primary motivation for rail preservation by OnTrac.

Why are we still talking about this?

Fact 1 - Union Station is not currently used as a train station.
Fact 2 - There is not a plan by anyone to use Union Station as a train station.
Fact 3 - The 2 existing active rail lines passing by Union Station will not be removed.
Fact 4 - Union Station will not be torn down.

Amen Kerry. Every time I see a post from Tom, all I hear is Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.....and 9 pages of it too.

By the way -- the contention of some on this forum that I insist on somehow transforming OKC Union Station into a heavy, intermodal container yard of some kind is a complete misapprehension of how expedited mail and express freight was always handled at every passenger depot in the nation prior to 1967 -- and how it could be handled at these facilities again.

Passenger train-borne Mail and Express was a truly neat, innovative and flexible business. They moved the First Class Mail -- with clerks, each packing .38 revolver sidearm, hand-sorting and hand-canceling letters en route. (All Railway Post Office clerks were certified with their firearms. They were quite serious about the security of the Mail. The clerks were also expert with Thompson Submachineguns, sometimes issued for special payrolls and other extra-security cargoes.)

They moved daily package express, with express agents at small town depots meeting the public across station counters -- and those deep green "Railway Express" trucks with the Camel and Lucky Strke billboards on the sides covering every community, farm, creek road and backwater across the nation from the trackside depots. UPS is actually a direct corporate descendent of the old REA, "Railway Express Agency."

But they also moved very special loads like carload seafood inland from the coasts in refrigerated express cars. They moved show horses in special "Horse Express" cars with big, floor-to-ceiling, clamshell doors in both ends. (Read in local author and Mustang Head Librarian Desiree Morrison Webber's book, "The Buffalo Train Ride," how the Wichita Game Preserve was repopulated with American Bison -- brought from the Bronx Zoo in Horse Express Cars -- one month prior to statehood in 1907.) It wasn't "bulk freight." It was very special, very personal, expedited handling. They could literally move anything -- and did, in large measure because each small-town depot had its own company station agent who lived in the community, knew the business environment and was always thinking, quite independently, of the best ways his company could serve his neighbors.

I read of a man who rode his new motorcycle out west and then took the limited express passenger trains back home, big bike safely stowed in a head-end Baggage-Express car. (Heck -- you can't even take your dog or cat on an Amtrak train, which is just one of the reasons "I can't use 'em much...") Knowing some of the great, great Santa Fe station agents and even an Express Agent or two as I did when I was a kid, I can see him (or in some cases, "her,") never even blinking as the request was made. The railroads could do anything, and did -- every day. They were, truly, "general transportation agencies."

We need that spirit in Oklahoma again. With that spirit, encouraged and supported by leadership, we could reinvent American transportation, "Oklahoma style."

I think there must have even been a package express service on some of our Interurban trains.

Think about the possibilities.

Have you ever walked through the OKC Union Station Express and Mail Rooms?

It's an amazing place.

TOM ELMORE

That's cool. I love history, and am always fascinated by how people did things back in the old days. Honestly I am. I think Route 66 is cool, and we as a state should do more to highlight this very important part of our history and culture. I love Art Deco buildings, and if I'd designed the new Devon Energy building, it would have been done in such a style. It would look like it was built in the 30s.

That all said, times change and doing things the old way just isn't efficient anymore. I know that rail still serves a very important function for shipping, but it will never be as important as it once was. I think fedoras are cool, but nobody wears them anymore.

Nothing intrinsically noble about transporting mail?

Really?

And do you suppose they're still using cars and airplanes in Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Sacramento, Albuquerque, San Diego, etc. -- where rail transit has, indeed, powerfully redeveloped and renenergized entire areas? Ask any of 'em if they'd now trade their rail systems for "MAPS" (which, you may recall, was supposed to fund the beginning of our own rail transit revolution until Istook "took it to Utah" with cover provided by Oklahoma's largest newspaper...)

By the way -- Union Station wasn't purchased with a federal transit grant in 1989 to become a "museum." It was purchased to be our regional transit center. Yes -- for the current cost of "a new off ramp at Robinson..."

Why don't you folks come out from behind your "e-pseudonyms" and tell us why you refuse to make sense?

TOM ELMORE

I have read all 21 pages of this thread and have a question that from it. If OKC is wanting mass transit and the citizens of OKC are paying for it, is it only going to be within our city limits and other cities would have to pay to connect? How would that work? I am talking about Edmond, Moore, Norman, MWC, Shawnee, Yukon and El Reno. Would those cities have to pass taxes to extend our rail?

Off track: This train really has left the station
The Oklahoman Editorial
Published: October 29, 2008

The train zealots are at it again, this time urging that the route of the new Interstate 40 Crosstown Expressway be altered so as to preserve Union Station as a possible rail hub. Can they possibly be serious?

Members of a group called OnTrac want the Crosstown to be built about 250 feet south of the route that’s now under construction. Earth to OnTrac: This isn’t some sort of erector set you’re dealing with. It’s a multimillion-dollar project that’s been thoroughly vetted.

A brief review: The need to do something about the current I-40 Crosstown became apparent in 1989, when a crack was found in the elevated portion of the road. In 1993, the federal government helped fund a study of what should be done. Two years later, a consultant was selected.

In January 1996, the first of many public hearings was held as part of a study period that lasted nearly seven years. The route that came to be chosen was settled on only after two rail companies merged — and stopped using all but a few of the lines in the affected area.

Rail company representatives attended every technical advisory committee meeting along the way. An official with the Oklahoma Department of Transportation says the agency has held thousands of conversations with rail representatives and enthusiasts since this process began. Oh, and one more thing — big, bad ODOT is spending $60 million on rail improvements in the area near Union Station.

"All we’re asking is that we be allowed to discuss this,” an OnTrac mouthpiece lamented Monday. Please.

Are Oklahoma rail advocates serious? As serious as Utahans enthusiastically packing the 60 fast, daily Front Runner commuter trains now linking Ogden and Salt Lake / Provo to Tinker competitor Hill AFB (today, the only Air Logistics Center in the nation with oil-crisis-proof workforce mobility). As serious as 80,000 Metroplex commuters using Dallas Area Rapid Transit's burgeoning rail network every day and 60,000 Denverites using RTD Rail, both systems about to triple in size to meet demand. As serious as more than a million New Mexicans who've used Albuquerque's amazing Rail Runner Express commuter service since its 6-14-06 inauguration. How about the daily rail transit users in Nashville, Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, San Diego, Houston, Little Rock, St. Louis and soon Phoenix and Austin?

Were University of North Texas economists serious when they announced, five years into DART Rail service, that the most valuable commercial property in the area was by then any along the rail transit lines? And the stunning redevelopment success of Mockingbird Station? ... or McKinney Avenue?

The biggest transportation news in the West is the overwhelming success of these new rail transit systems. Didn't you read it in THE OKLAHOMAN? --- No?

By the time most of these "new transit cities" had awakened to the amazing power of the systems to improve their economies, much of the train handling space at their own historic central terminals had been lost. All regret it -- and many have repeatedly urged OKC, home of the West's last, unused Union Station boasting all its original rail yard space, to jealously preserve and reuse it to replicate their success. Union Station, nexus of Oklahoma's 866 miles of state-owned railway, is OKC's great competitive advantage, apparently stubbornly unrecognized by certain newspaper folks.

Oklahoma rail advocates -- thousands of us -- are determined to make the most of our elegantly designed Union Station, purchased, by the way, with a federal transit grant for exactly that purpose in 1989, considerably predating ODOT's inexplicable and completely unnecessary plan to cripple its yard capacity.
Was ODOT, whose policies have stuck Oklahoma's grandchildren with $40 billion in unfunded highway maintenance need "serious" when, in the mid-90s, it assigned this treasure, with its 8-block-long, grade separated rail terminal yard a value of "zero?"

The train, has, indeed, "left the station" in just about every metro in the West except Oklahoma City, and that is "serious," indeed.

An issue with Kerry's oft repeated 4 facts are the locked in time mode of the argument.

Perhaps I read all this wrong, but isn't the central argument preserving the railyard space itself? Lots of folks who seem to be bent on Tom E go away write reams on the station and on the tracks adjoining the station, but I sense if the building were toppled by a storm tonight, the fight by Tom E and Ontrac and others for that railyard would continue unabated. It's the potential being fought for, not the present day reality.

Is it the right fight. I don't know. I see some sense it and if the railyard has true value as a future rail hub and it could be preserved by such a slight shift, I'm rather amazed it wasn't long ago just to put an end to it all.

But, back to the undeniable facts. The trouble with such a position can be demonstrated by looking back a mere 25 years.

1. Oklahoma City has no major league franchise.
2. No major league franchise has approached OKC about relocation.
3. There is no suitable major league venue in OKC.
4. There is no plan to add a venue suitable for a major league franchise.

In its day, I believe each of the above was also an undeniable fact. Fortunately for the round ball fanatics, such facts were not brought down from the mountaintop, meant to stand the test of time. So, perhaps this season's 4 undeniable facts are also not written in stone.

Time will tell, and that dear folk, is an undeniable fact.

Kevin - the only thing missing in your attempt at undeniable facts is that there was a plan put in place by people that had the authority to see the plan through. Once someone with the authority put in a rail system proposes that Union Station play a central role in regional transit system then the 4 undeniable facts will need to be updated. But don't worry, I am ready for that with another set of undeniable truths.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program: blah blah ODOT evil blah blah blah Utah blah blah Istook blah blah blah ODOT evil blah blah blah...

From: PUBLIC AFFAIRS, US DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

DOT 157-08
Friday, October 24, 2008
Contact: Brian Turmail
Tel.: (202) 366-4570

New August Data Show Americans Drove 15 Billion Fewer Miles than a Year Ago, U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary Peters Announces
Travel Changes Demonstrate Need for New Way to Fund Transportation

DALLAS – New federal data show Americans are continuing a 10-month-long decline in driving habits, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Mary Peters announced today. The decline is putting new pressure on the way road, bridge and transit projects are funded at a time of record growth in transit ridership, showing the need for a new approach for funding transportation construction, she added

“We pay for transit the same way we pay for road and bridge projects – with federal gas taxes,” said Secretary Peters, who made the announcement during a visit to a light rail station under construction in Dallas. “Relying on the gas tax is like relying on cardboard to keep the rain out – the longer you use it the less it works.”

In August 2008, Americans drove 15 billion fewer miles, or 5.6 percent less, than they did in August 2007 – the largest ever year-to-year decline recorded in a single month, Secretary Peters said. She added that over the past 10 months, Americans have driven 78 billion fewer miles than they did in the same 10 months the previous year. Texans alone drove 1.3 million fewer miles, the Secretary added.

Transit ridership, meanwhile, saw an increase of 6.2 percent this summer compared to last, said Secretary Peters. In Texas, the DART rail system saw an increase of 15 percent this summer, one of the largest in its 12-year history, she noted.

She said that since 2001, the Department has invested over $8 billion to finance over 280 miles worth of new transit lines, which, taken together, would be 25 percent longer than the New York City subway system. She warned that future projects, however, could be at risk if we continue to rely on gas taxes to fund transit construction.

She said a plan to significantly reform federal transportation policy the Administration unveiled earlier this year would address that challenge by making it easier for states to attract new sources of funding for transportation projects. “With this new approach to funding transportation projects, we can ensure that Big D has Grade-A transit service for years to come.”

People drove less because of the price of gasoline. It happened in Atlanta too. People suddenly discovered MARTA when they'd been refusing to ride for years. Look for people to start driving again if gas prices stay lower. I'm not necessarily saying that's a good thing, but I'd be shocked if it didn't happen.

During the Arab oil embargo, when gas wasn't readily available, people started buying more fuel efficient cars. Once gas was plentiful again, they stopped and went back to their gas guzzlers.

It takes more than high cost of automobile transportation to increase ridership. Mass transit has to be relatively fast, not involve multiple transfers, and take people precisely where they want to go, in addition to heavy traffic and/or high gas prices.

You know -- the funny thing is that if you don't have quality transit, you can't use it when you need it.

We're way, way behind. We need all of the Union Station terminal yard and all of our state rail assets -- and we need to start aggressively developing all of it right now.

ODOT's argument justifying its goofy assessment of the value of Union Station was, "Well, it's not being used now."

We assume they'd probably have chopped up the lifeboats on the Titanic for firewood before the ship left its home port. After all, they "weren't being used right then," and the ship was unsinkable.

Right?

TOM ELMORE

1) Point to the facts until they're defeated by reality. 2) Point to history until you understand the reasons that things change 3) Point to macro elements (drivers using mass-trans) until they're exposed as the result of high gas prices. 4) Repeat, ad-nauseum.

It reminds me of the courtroom lawyer's tactic: If the facts are on your side, then bang on the facts. If the law is on your side, then bang on the law. If neither is on your side, then bang on the table.

You seem to miss that transit use is still trending upward despite the recent plummeting of gasoline prices. "Sudden cheap gas" is, to any observant individual, as scary as the skyrocketing ascent of prior months.

Many Americans suddenly "get it." But ODOT keeps pretending it's "1955."

Any possibility that unnecessarily expensive transportation may get to be a real drag on family budgets as the world economy struggles to find its feet? Anybody in Oklahoma wanna be "ready for that?"

Naaah...

(I'm thinking at this moment about the inverted bathtub ripped out of a Moore house flattened by the May 3rd, 1999 tornado. Scrawled on its side with spray paint were the bitter words, "Okie Storm Shelter.")

What if people discover that transportation is really "just transportation" -- that "your car doesn't really say a thing about who you are," that in the most expensive automobile in the world, any occupant is seated only on his-or-her own rump, and that it was a danged expensive illusion that GM, Ford and Madison Avenue successfully sold us all those years? (43,000 lives per year +...)

Wanna talk about illusions and reality? How about tying the day-to-day operation of the our critical business base to a trucking industry that can't even get out of its own way -- that comes nowhere near covering its actual operating costs on public roads -- but, thanks to 60 years of massive, ongoing subsidy, has taken most of the profit out of self-supporting modes?

Trucking and its highway-lobby cousins are certainly under no illusion about what's going on. They're in Washington lobbying for tax credits for the nation's railroads so there'll be more trains on more tracks to carry more trucks. Meanwhile -- here in Oklahoma -- the rocket scientists at ODOT struggle to rip the obvious heart out of our own amazing rail network -- with the functional complicity of presumably educated people who are nevertheless apparently so married to their own fantasies and illusions that they can't seem to figure out who to believe.

Boomer Sooner.

Viva Union Station.

TOM ELMORE
(OU '78)

Trucking and its highway-lobby cousins are certainly under no illusion about what's going on. They're in Washington lobbying for tax credits for the nation's railroads so there'll be more trains on more tracks to carry more trucks. Meanwhile -- here in Oklahoma -- the rocket scientists at ODOT struggle to rip the obvious heart out of our own amazing rail network -- with the functional complicity of presumably educated people who are apparently so married to their own fantasies and illusions that they can't seem to figure out who to believe.

Viva Union Station.

TOM ELMORE
(OU '78)

I thought we weren't talking about trucking in the same breath as Union Station?

If Union Station is the heart of our rail industry, why aren't any of the railroads using it? Is it possible they think there are better locations for their business?

No one is arguing with you about rail traffic. If you can prove that people from outlying cities in OKLAHOMA (not Utah or Texas) will use rail in such numbers that it is cost effective and or significantly energy efficient, we're all for it. I'm not interested in rail as a piece of history, but as a means to increased the urbanization and density of our city. I may be selfish, but I'm more interested in making life easier and more enjoyable for people who actually live in Oklahoma City. I'm not as worried about people who choose to live in Edmond, Norman, El Reno or Shawnee. Again, if we can prove that they are all going to come to downtown Oklahoma City to recreate and shop, hooray! Let's give them a rail system (with their financial input) to make that easier and more energy efficient.

No one is arguing that piggybacks and rail aren't an excellent marriage. I personally would love to see allmost all long distance trucking utilize rail, with trucks only used to deliver goods short distances. But, that doesn't have to be via Union Station. It would destroy our plans for Core to Shore and revitalization of downtown were Union Station to be used for commercial rail.

On to the more important question and the subject of this thread. If we determine that there's really good reason to make it easy for people from those cities to come to Oklahoma City frequently and in large numbers, why does that place they all come have to be Union Station? There's where I disagree with the rail enthusiasts, who seem to be putting adulation of history ahead of common sense.

We're not arguing so much about rail as good or bad in this thread, as we're arguing about the location of one station, which, as Kerry is fond of stating, will not be destroyed regardless of what happens. Actually, I happen to think that using it as a multimodal hub will be more likely to destroy its' beauty and our ability to appreciate that beauty than my hopes for it. I also happen to think that, especially for anyone traveling north or south, the location of Union Station is so poor that it won't be used by the majority of people who might be coming to Oklahoma City to shop or recreate. It would be a poor utilization of a wonderful resource.

Viva my plan for Union Station!
OUHSC ('85)

Alec Baldwin: "The, the, ...global warming and... corporate America and..."

Alec Baldwin: "The, the, ...global warming and... corporate America and..."

Let me explain to you how this works: you see, the corporations finance ODOT, and then ODOT goes out... and the corporations sit there in their... in their corporation buildings, and... and, and see, they're all corporation-y... and they make money.

Let me explain to you how this works: you see, the corporations finance ODOT, and then ODOT goes out... and the corporations sit there in their... in their corporation buildings, and... and, and see, they're all corporation-y... and they make money.

warreng88 - you are way off. You didn't mention Istook, Utah, or the Mormons. You can't have a conspiracy theory without a shadow quazi-religious organization pulling strings behind the scenes.