I suspect, Tom that there are about four people reading this thread. The four who are bothering to post. It's probably time to give it up. When the majority of people who read here see your name or mine on a post in this thread, I'll bet a lot of money they skip right over it, so we are both wasting our time and getting aggravated for nothing. You will never convince me you are right, and I'm sure I'll never convince you. It's probably time to give it a rest.

The people who carved that name into the building were constructing a grand, urban rail center, hoss. I'll guarantee you they knew what they meant -- even if smart fellers like you can't figure it out.

If Richard is so INSISTENT that we are complete idiots to call the building Union STATION
It's a DEPOT!!!! then excuse us for reading the name on the building.

Lame.

If only the highway was completed to end this dicussion as soon as the election was over for the same reason...

"Time to give it up," you say, betts?

Is "visionless fantasizer" an oxymoron?

Not for somebody who can look at the Taj Mahal and wish it was a rowboat or an aardvark. Or wish the Union Station terminal facility rail yard was a picnic ground.

Could it be that maybe you're just that willing to avoid a fight? Plenty of Oklahomans, as I've said before, seem to be able to justify just about anything. "Well, you know, you just can't fight city hall," they say.

Of course you can -- and will, if required to succeed in bringing about a righteous outcome.

That's how our forefathers delivered this nation to us, despite the majority who "stayed out of the fight" to protect their own hides.

If "the man in the big house says that's the way it's gonna be," no matter how damaging or absurd it may be, far, far too many of us look the other way and make excuses for it.

My point to you is this: Some of us are actually "in" the fight for transit and better heavy transport. We're under no illusions about the mindset and motivations of leadership here in our native state -- and we're not gonna just lie down for it. We well understand that in matters like "transit starts," the devil is in the details -- and that if you want something better for your children and grandchildren, you'd better take a good, hard look at what's required to get it and then accept no substitutes.

All factors considered, we who have fought this fight for so long consider the Union Station rail plant to be the only hope this generation has for seeing a comprehensive transit system in our lifetimes. And we just-as-well understand that we'd better be fighting to keep our rail-freight network undiminished by the better-to-rule-in-hell-than-serve-in-heaven crowd who've successfully undermined it for their own fun and profit since the end of WWII.

We know what we're talking about -- and we won that knowledge "the hard way."

We all-too-well understand why the leadership wants these assets gone -- and why if they can't completely destroy them, they'll be happy for a time to cripple them, aided and abetted by their "codependent facilitators" among the commoners.

Maybe you're just one of the far too many Oklahomans who ain't ever gonna put anything on the line -- hiding there behind your icon and your pseudonym.

That's your business -- and I can sure understand why folks who've spent all they had to spend standing up on critical issues would just naturally come under your "remote criticism" as "unreasonable" or "extreme."

I've spent the time in this lengthy conversation with you to try to get you to understand the importance of standing up, publicly, for something I happen to know matters very much. It matters too much to accept some watered down version of the desired outcome.

But I can sure understand why this sort of thing bothers and provokes the anonymous rock-throwers among us. They're always there, like bad weather. And this is precisely why Samuel Adams said to some in his own time, "go from us -- and may posterity forget that you were once our countrymen."

"Lead, follow or get out of the way," goes the old saying. At least one of those might involve showing yourself in public.

TOM ELMORE

The next time there's a public forum, I will be there. I will be there as a private citizen who lives in Oklahoma City, who has spent years actually using mass transit rather than reading about it, as a private citizen who will soon actually be living in downtown Oklahoma City. I have only practical knowledge and interest, but sometimes good old common sense serves better than high flown ideals.

The citizens have consistently voted in favor of better mass transit. Certain COTPA, Metro Transit, and ODOT officials just won't get it going.[/quote]



Ok, now I'm confused. What does ODOT have to do with a city bus service?

Thanks, betts.

I'm glad to talk or visit with you at any time. Contact data's at NATI - Solutions to the Nation's Transportation Problems (http://www.advancedtransport.org)

TOM ELMORE

Ok, now I'm confused. What does ODOT have to do with a city bus service?

Not much, but they certainly would be involved in commuter rail to outlying towns.

Union Station is obsolete as a passenger train station and has been for over 40 years. That is a longer period of time than it operated from the day it first opened until the day it died.....It died because it was no longer a viable enterprise. There was no demand for the product.

Nothing has changed. There is still no demand for that product.

Polls showing that improved mass trans is a priority to our citizens shouldn't be confused with demand and feasabilty for passenger rail service to Shawnee and El Reno. The best estimates for demand for mass transit from those communities would be Greyhound bus numbers and I think those numbers would scare you.

The abandoned rail yard is just that.....abandoned. Take a look at it with Google earth. There's nothing there......it's been abandoned for 40 years and no railroad company has any desire to save it.

Tom has become so obsessed that he has lost all sense of reason...and it's truly sad. The only thing he can hope to accomplish is to slow down the I-40 project and therefore drive up the cost.

Fools gold....

With respect, the authoritative federal Surface Transportation Board might be found somewhat at variance with your perhaps over-broad assessment of OKC Union Station's railway rights-of-way as "abandoned."

As to the relationship between OKC Union Station and Oklahoma's undeniably low per capita income standing, it might be helpful to understand that key metros in the states we fell behind by that measure in the 90s -- Arkansas and New Mexico -- are well into redevelopment of rail transit services.

There's an old saying in economics: When transportation sneezes, the economy catches cold.

While you're pondering the relevance of such arcana, you might take the time to look up photos of Dallas Union Station's rail yard in the 1970s, prior to its rebirth as today's vital, burgeoning multimodal center. That could serve as a helpful orientation on what you're actually looking at when you see OKC's counterpart today.

As to the actual current demand for modern rail transit and transportation services, I'm sure the federal Bureau of Transportation Statistics' data could be considered quite comprehensive and reliable. Also, you might reference investors like Warren Buffet.

TOM ELMORE

We don't want a damn railroad hub in the middle of our park! Is it that hard to understand?

Look at how many views and replies there are to this thread, the majority of OKCTalk has at least considered the issue. Most are against it, there's maybe less than five people on here who actually are for your plan Tom. Do you think the OKC populace is for it? NO!

You are not winning anyone over, the issue is dead. ODOT will proceed as normal with construction.

OnTrac's plan to move the relocation of I-40 a bit south would also destroy (see I can use that word too) the Little Flower Church, which I would hate to see happen. - Betts

Hey, has anyone noticed all of the biblical references the OnTrac people keep throwing out? I find it odd that their plan to save the abandoned rail yard would destroy a church. Go figure.

Undeniable Facts
Fact 1 - Union Station is not currently used as a train station.
Fact 2 - There is not a plan by anyone to use Union Station as a train station.
Fact 3 - The 2 existing active rail lines passing by Union Station will not be removed.
Fact 4 - Union Station will not be torn down.

Undeniable Facts
Fact 1 - Union Station is not currently used as a train station.
Fact 2 - There is not a plan by anyone to use Union Station as a train station.
Fact 3 - The 2 existing active rail lines passing by Union Station will not be removed.
Fact 4 - Union Station will not be torn down.

Tom Elmore and Offtrac = blah blah blah blah blah blah long post no one ever reads and everyone on here scrolls over...more blah blah blah blah blah blah...unrelated newspaper article from Bob's newspaper halfway across the country....blah blah blah blah blah blah....ODOT is the devil.....blah blah blah blah blah blah....we're all idiots and he's the only one with any vision....blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Did I get it all covered?

ya know, i saw you tom... in SOLEIL, pleading your case to the important looking guy. and i was very proud of myself.... cuz it was so tempting to just throw in a "some of us just want the damn road built, tom!" or jump in and run the counterpoint argument. however, i do have manners and did refrain.

I love how you twist all that around. You can't even tell the difference between a station or a depot.

And by the way, just because OKC says they're not destroying the station and GCOR states they are doesn't mean they aren't. Just remember, OKC is so corrupt even the state auditor went to jail. I trust nobody. It's this kind of government that keeps us at 47th per capita income and we also lost a congressional seat to where Utah picked it up.

show me any state that doesn't have a corrupt govt. our per capita income is lower because the cost of living is lower.
now richard... many of us don't see the value in the rail yard because the tracks don't go anywhere anyone is interested in going. the location of union station doesn't serve the needs of a modern okc. who cares if the tracks go to all points in oklahoma...
the reality of the situation is that the crosstown is falling and something needs to happen fast before we have a tragedy on our hands. also, take a look at the heartland flyer... the one or two people that get off in norman, ardmore or any small city does not trump the thousands of cars that utilize I-40 daily. if people aren't using the rail option that is available, what makes you think they'll catch a train to elk city or any other small town.

btw, if you're going to quote scripture... i would suggest not being so rude and namecalling to your "neighbors" here on the board, it tends to lose it's effect.

"do unto others as you would have done to you" - jesus

Oklahoma has a low per capita income because we don't have a statewide rail system? Now I have heard it all. Maybe I don't see the connection between express mail and some farmers income in Guymon. Can you explain it to me Tom?

Oh please don't ask him to explain something. Now he'll find some new tangent to go crazy on in a totally unrelated and crazy way. I'm sure the downfall of the stock market is because we don't have light rail.

The city council of Lawton, the state's fourth most populous municipality and home of the Ft. Sill Army Field Artillery Center and Cameron University is now reliably reported to have passed its own resolution last week apparently urging Governor Henry to suspend, and openly, independently investigate the "New Crosstown" project, and by all means to save the entire OKC Union Station railway terminal facility yard.

As with all other Oklahoma communities served by rail lines radiating from the OKC Union Station yard, Lawton was evidently never consulted about how it might be affected by the loss of direct connectivity, independence, strategic redundancy and diminution of strategic railway capacity threatened by ODOT's plan to decimate the Union Station rail center. In its allegedly extensive public notification process, ODOT apparently somehow completely failed to apprise the home of Army Field Artillery -- or to include them in consideration of the matter.

Today, interestingly enough, as the population count of cities urging accountability in this matter approaches that of Oklahoma City, itself, ODOT appears to be reacting in something of a panic. Business owners near the Western / Reno / Exchange intersection noted with alarm that ODOT contractors have now indefinitely closed both S. Western Avenue and Exchange -- one day prior to the general election.

This apparently leaves only Walker as the sole, unimpeded, fully north-south arterial corridor remaining available between I-35 and I-240 to city voters who may well be scrambling between their home political precincts and places of work or school tomorrow to vote amidst predicted record turnout.

ODOT couldn't wait until the Penn and Shields Bridges, at least, were reopened?

What's the hurry? Or is it that Ridley, Tomlinson, Overland and their boss at the governor's mansion are beginning to feel the growing heat of the scrutiny of ever-greater-numbers of Oklahomans troubled by the clear lack of accountability in this matter?

In any event, Lawton has now added its own consensus to that of El Reno, Chickasha, Norman and Shawnee.

This much is clear: Rail matters very much to Oklahomans. It matters very much to Oklahoma's industrial capacity and prospective workforce mobility. And it may well matter even more to the futures of Oklahoma's critical military installations.

TOM ELMORE
NATI - Solutions to the Nation's Transportation Problems (http://www.advancedtransport.org)

BS. There is no loss of direct connectivity to Oklahoma City. That's as much progaganda as the "destroyed" business. You're going out there telling them they won't be able to take the train to Oklahoma City when they're not taking it now anyway.

If we decide that it's cost effective to run passenger rail to Lawton, we still can. There will still be a line to Oklahoma City, because no one is removing the line to Lawton. It's where those people get off that train that is open to question, not if they can.

WTF....I mean seriosuly Tom. Freaking Lawton. What the hell does Lawton have to do with anything. You get further from the main topic every time you post. Next you're going to have Dallas in the mix and say they want to use Union as a depot too.

If we have a rail line to Lawton, there's no way in hell it's going to go to Union. It's going to go to the airport. That topic has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on anything to do with this. I'm sure offtrac missinformed Lawton into thinking that OKC was going to tear out all it's rail lines (because passenger rail to Lawton would be such a hot item anyawy....b t dubbs, you can still get there faster in your own car than a train would be). It's like going to Tulsa....or really even driving to Dallas instead of flying....it's faster.

So stop trying to use misinformation for your world of crap.

The Today, interestingly enough, as the population count of cities urging accountability in this matter approaches that of Oklahoma City, itself, ODOT appears to be reacting in something of a panic. Business owners near the Western / Reno / Exchange intersection noted with alarm that ODOT contractors have now indefinitely closed both S. Western Avenue and Exchange -- one day prior to the general election.

This apparently leaves only Walker as the sole, unimpeded, fully north-south arterial corridor remaining available between I-35 and I-240 to city voters who may well be scrambling between their home political precincts and places of work or school tomorrow to vote amidst predicted record turnout.
TOM ELMORE


Just when I thought you couldn't get dumber or more outlandish, you come through. Now ODOT is involved in surpressing voter turnout on streets that are not under the control of ODOT. I hope all of you following Tom understand how stupid he sounds.

Just when I thought you couldn't get dumber or more outlandish, you come through. Now ODOT is involved in surpressing voter turnout on streets that are not under the control of ODOT. I hope all of you following Tom understand how stupid he sounds.

I thought the same thing. Everything is a conspiracy. I'm surprised he didn't come right out and mention something about the african-american voters that wouldn't be able to get to their voting locations because of it.

BNSF's former Santa Fe Red Rock Subdivision line -- the north-south line elevated through downtown Oklahoma City -- is one of the most congested in the nation, conservatively reported to carry 40+ daily fast freights.

There's only one reason the BNSF would assent to diminishing the capacity and destroying the independence of the Chickasha and Sooner Subdivisions: Its management today believes it has no interest in operating those divisions in the future. Other operators will likely operate them -- so, BNSF is pleased to accept making their historically independent passage through OKC dependent on its own central dispatching. All this to get one mile across the N. Canadian River.

Moreover, traffic on the "Packingtown Lead" is much more vulnerable, traversing previously grade-separated arterial street crossings exclusively at-grade.

This is simply unacceptable -- obviously running counter to the railroads' own standing policy. You never (never) substitute at grade crossings for longstanding underpasses or overpasses. Its also very unwise from the standpoint of roadway safety and mobility, especially as regards emergency passage.

"Heck, the railroad doesn't even want the rail line," the uncritical thinkers repeat. What does the railroad want -- when it no longer gives a hoot about a given marketplace?

During the buildup to the last round of Base Closing and Realignment proceedings, the Joint Chiefs clearly indicated that, in future BRAC rounds, the smaller bases with the more redundant missions that "stay" will be those with the best quality of life for military personnel. Many US military families have lived in Europe, Britain and Japan -- and miss those places' rail services when they come home.

This is only one aspect of the trouble ODOT is trying to bring down on the entire state -- all for four miles of expressway it can neither afford to build nor maintain -- while the "very special few" chirp their thoughtless approval.

Word from media sources now reminds us that ODOT had promised to reopen Penn and Shields before they shut down other arterial streets. They're plainly feeling the heat -- apparently hoping they "have us all sufficiently on the hook" that we can't do much about it.

Only time will tell.

TOM ELMORE

Quality of life for workers at Tinker might be improved with light rail, but freight is certainly not a quality of life issue to anyone but the most obsessed of rail enthusiasts (if that's what you're saying, because you lost me).

Now, a beatiful iconic Central Park, with the surrounding residential, hotel and retail development it might bring, would set Oklahoma City ahead of where it currently stands when thinking about quality of life. We need to erase the "dustbowl" stereotype that exists in the minds of most people not familiar with Oklahoma City. Green is the antithesis of dust, is it not? We need people to think of green when they think of Oklahoma City. In addition, what we're doing with downtown residential housing will help. Having an NBA team will help. Having light rail, or certainly a great mass transit system of some sort would help. Downtown retail, more hotels and restaurants would help. More museums would help. Being able to walk to the river for a concert at the ampitheatre or to ride the ferris wheel (that is where it's going, isn't it?) would help. None of these things exist in a vacuum. There has to be synergy, and you cannot concentrate on one to the exclusion of the others.

It's clear, Tom, you love rail, and know more about it than anyone here. You don't need to keep proving that. But, there are other things as, if not more, important to the development of our urban core. You cannot ignore them and expect us to agree, We live here. You don't. We have to care about more than transportation, because there's so much more to our lives here than getting from point A to point B.

BRAC and rail...yet another stretch I shouldn't be surprised at. Rail works in Europe because everything is so compact. It doesn't work as well in a sprawling metro like OKC. And FYI Tom - you will find that the overwhelming majority of the Tinker folks live on the east side..or Moore. Yes the come from all directions, but the greatest concentration is near the base.

You seem to be running out of excuses for why we should realign I-40 for Union Station. You've covered everything except why not using rail is "who shot Kennedy". Or maybe Nessie has a summer home underneath it or something. Oh I know, Hoffa is buried in the deck!

What is the current status (today) of the I-40 project? I know they ran into some other 'natural' holdups, like the acid pit they found...costing more $$$, but is the project moving again or what? I know the original plan had the earliest completion date as what, 2010, or somewhere around that time? Can't believe that it wasn't done at least ten years ago, but thats out the window now.

Even the original plan of '2010' makes me shake my head and look at the date again.

Does anyone know what kind of preventative action they are taking on the existing bridge to prevent another MSP disaster?

http://newsok.com/fade-to-gray-state-economic-look-starting-to-lose-color/article/3319084?custom_click=headlines_widget

Read, also, so far only in the print edition, OKLAHOMAN business writer Don Mecoy's "TRADE TALK" column article, "DEFENSE SPENDING HELPS BUOY STATE IN ROUGH TIMES"

Here's a transcription of the last paragraph:

I had lunch with a banker recently who offered a blunt anecdotal assessment of the economic impact of defense spending in one community. "Have you been to Lawton lately?" he asked. "You wouldn't recognize the place."

http://newsok.com/fade-to-gray-state-economic-look-starting-to-lose-color/article/3319084?custom_click=headlines_widget

Read, also, so far only in the print edition, OKLAHOMAN business writer Don Mecoy's "TRADE TALK" column article, "DEFENSE SPENDING HELPS BUOY STATE IN ROUGH TIMES"

Here's a transcription of the last paragraph:

I had lunch with a banker recently who offered a blunt anecdotal assessment of the economic impact of defense spending in one community. "Have you been to Lawton lately?" he asked. "You wouldn't recognize the place."


It is a 2-2 count and here comes the wind up and the pitch. Whoa, Tom got all of that one and drove into left field....

What does Union Station have to do with anything in that news non-story?

Borg was born in Södertälje, Sweden. Before he was 21, Björn Rune Borg had registered feats that would set him apart as one of game's greats--and before he was 26, the golden-locked Swede was through. No male career of the modern era has been so brief and bright.

Tennis is filled with instances of precocious achievements and championships, but none is as impressive as those of Borg. Just before his 18th birthday Borg was the youngest winner of the Italian Championship, and two weeks later he was the youngest winner of the French Championship (a record lowered by countryman Mats Wilander, 17, in 1982, and subsequently by Michael Chang, a younger 17 in 1989). Eighteen months later, at 19, he climaxed a Davis Cup record winning streak of 19 singles by lifting Sweden to the 1975 Cup for the first time in a 3-2 final-round victory over Czechoslovakia. His Cup singles streak of 33 was intact at his retirement, still a record.

During a nine-year career, Borg won 41 percent of the Grand Slam singles tournaments he entered (11 of 27) and 89.8 percent of the Grand Slam singles matches he played. Both are male open era records. In addition, Borg's six French Open singles titles is the all-time record for a male player.[3][4]

Borg is the only player in the open era to have won both Wimbledon and the French Open in the same year more than once; he did so in three consecutive years. (In 2008 Rafael Nadal became the first player since Borg to win both titles in the same year.)

Sorry, I wanted to post something with as much if not more relevance than Tom's posts.

Oh thank you Warren!

I get it now. Nevermind anything I said. It makes perfect sense. Forget the relocation. Save the railyard!

BNSF's former Santa Fe Red Rock Subdivision line -- the north-south line elevated through downtown Oklahoma City -- is one of the most congested in the nation, conservatively reported to carry 40+ daily fast freights.

There's only one reason the BNSF would assent to diminishing the capacity and destroying the independence of the Chickasha and Sooner Subdivisions: Its management today believes it has no interest in operating those divisions in the future. Other operators will likely operate them -- so, BNSF is pleased to accept making their historically independent passage through OKC dependent on its own central dispatching. All this to get one mile across the N. Canadian River.

Moreover, traffic on the "Packingtown Lead" is much more vulnerable, traversing previously grade-separated arterial street crossings exclusively at-grade.

This is simply unacceptable -- obviously running counter to the railroads' own standing policy. You never (never) substitute at grade crossings for longstanding underpasses or overpasses. Its also very unwise from the standpoint of roadway safety and mobility, especially as regards emergency passage.

"Heck, the railroad doesn't even want the rail line," the uncritical thinkers repeat. What does the railroad want -- when it no longer gives a hoot about a given marketplace?

During the buildup to the last round of Base Closing and Realignment proceedings, the Joint Chiefs clearly indicated that, in future BRAC rounds, the smaller bases with the more redundant missions that "stay" will be those with the best quality of life for military personnel. Many US military families have lived in Europe, Britain and Japan -- and miss those places' rail services when they come home.

This is only one aspect of the trouble ODOT is trying to bring down on the entire state -- all for four miles of expressway it can neither afford to build nor maintain -- while the "very special few" chirp their thoughtless approval.

Word from media sources now reminds us that ODOT had promised to reopen Penn and Shields before they shut down other arterial streets. They're plainly feeling the heat -- apparently hoping they "have us all sufficiently on the hook" that we can't do much about it.

Only time will tell.

TOM ELMORE

rail has almost 0 to do with brac ... and tinker AFB is neither small nor redundant .. AWACS is a huge AF mission ..28 of the 32 jets plus all depot support is a TAFB tacamo is a mission critical navy program at TAFB .. and the OC-ALC provides depot support for the B1 and B-52 KC 135 E-3 and to a lesser extent the B-2 ... not to mention .. its huge job of engine overhall for about 100 airframes ..

that and the fact that brac very much cares about best cost .. and with our low cost of living .. tinker will only grow in the future ..
TAFB is not going anywhere


also .. funny you should use the average income stat for oklahoma ... in which we are low ... and not the wall st journal .. income ajusted for col .. in which okc .. ranks very very well in the us


that and the fact .. that we don't have a "transportation" problem and have a huge land size based on our city population ..

is why we don't want to listen to you propaganda .. and why rail is not that important of an issue in the near future

The magazine "Renovation Style" has an article devoted to the train station in Nashville. They've turned it into a high-end hotel. It was a glowing article, without any handwringing about the fact that it's not being used as a train station.

Score Betts, now we can use his own material against him.

Wow, what a beautiful building......and what a great use for a building that had become obsolete for its originally intended purpose.


"A Historic And Elegant Past At Nashville Union Station Hotel
Peel back the layers of time at Union Station - A Wyndham Historic Hotel, a splendidly restored 19th-Century railroad station. Come to Nashville Union Station and turn the clock back to a grander era - when travel was truly exotic and special. Back then, passengers dressed in their "Sunday Finest" and gathered in huge terminals that resembled castles rather than train stations. An excited, yet civil, energy charged the air, alongside soaring Victorian architecture, ornate wood carvings, and exquisite Italian marble.

Pulsing locomotives hissed on the platforms, as rubber-throated conductors shouted, "All aboard!" Visit those magnificent days through these notable characteristics, which make our stunning Nashville TN Union Station hotel truly special, including:

Heavy-stone Richardsonian-Romanesque design

Designated a National Historic Landmark in 1977

65-foot, barrel-vaulted lobby ceiling, featuring gold-leaf medallions and 100-year-old, original Luminous Prism stained glass

Marble floors, oak-accented doors and walls, and a limestone fireplace

20 gold-accented bas-relief angel of commerce figurines

Two bas-relief panels - a steam locomotive and horse-drawn chariot - at each end of the lobby


A Century Of Pride And Tradition At Nashville TN Union Station

Long before it was a historic hotel, Nashville, TN Union Station was a key center in America's economy and culture. Opening on Oct. 9, 1900, to great fanfare, the building's imposing Gothic design - featuring lofty turrets and towers - was a testament to U.S. ingenuity and energy. During railroading's glory years, the station saw characters such as movie starlet Mae West and Mafia kingpin Al Capone - who was escorted through here on his way to Georgia penitentiary. Other fascinating facts surrounding our historic Nashville hotel include:

Construction began on Aug. 1, 1898

Station officially opened on Oct. 9, 1900

The lobby once held two alligator ponds located on the track level

The Train Shed was the largest unsupported span in America, housing up to 10 full trains at once

Officially opened as a hotel in December 1986

Re-dedicated on October 9, 2007 after $11 million dollar renovation"

Downtown Nashville Hotels & Tennessee Room Reservations-Union Station Wyndham Historic Hotel (http://www.unionstationhotelnashville.com/)

What I appreciate about this thread - and why I keep coming back - is that Tom hasn't been censured and the thread hasn't been locked.

El Reno Tribune Opinion Page, Sunday, November 9, 2008
OUR VIEW: ISSUE OF TRANSPORTATION MUCH BROADER THAN MUNICIPAL BOUNDARIES

The Issue: Some in Oklahoma City are upset with leaders in surrounding communities for seeking more information on Interstate 40 project.

We Suggest: El Reno leaders and those in other communities did the right thing in seeking more information on a project that impacts regional transportation.

Editorial writers in Oklahoman City want El Reno, Norman, Chickasha and Shawnee to mind their own business.

The opinion writers are upset because elected leaders in these hamlets of central Oklahoma supported a resolution asking that a closer look be made at how the relocation of Interstate 40 in Oklahoma City will impact Union Station.

Some railroad enthusiasts believe moving the highway will decimate the historic station and cripple any future plans for development of a commuter rail system that could link the area. The rail supporters made their case to the councils in each of the four communities mentioned and apparently their argument must have been convincing. All four councils approved the resolution seeking further study. The resolution wasn't anything mean-spirited or damaging, it simply asked for the matter to be considered. It's like a few years ago when Oklahoma City's mayor approached some nearby communities with the idea of combining fire departments. The idea sounded logical to us, but others weren't interested and so nothing materialized.

We're excited elected leaders are willing to ask questions. These people made a decision based on the information presented to them. If an opposing view is out there, those who share it need to do a better job of telling their side of the story.

It's difficult for us to imagine as progressive as Oklahoma City has been recently that leaders there wouldn't have some future plan for rail transportation. None of us knows what the price of gasoline will be next week, not to mention next year. Alternative transportation plans would seem to make sense, or cents, however you wish to view the matter. We believe Oklahoma should be pursuing the development of natural gas-powered trains. Talk about creating jobs and demand for our plentiful and affordable natural resource.

Cities around the nation, many similar in size to Oklahoma City and the surrounding area, have developed commuter rail service, so why shouldn't we in central Oklahoma be talking to one another about this regional issue?

A few years ago some in Oklahoma City proposed renaming the North Canadian River. They wanted the river to be called the Oklahoma River. The portion of the river inside Oklahoma County was indeed renamed the "Oklahoma River" and with millions of dollars of improvements, the river has become quite an attraction for boat races.

This is just a guess, but we're betting if any federal money was used to make the improvements to the "Oklahoma River," it was a small slice of the pie. That's unlike the billion-dollar relocation of Interstate 40. The majority of funding for this project will come from Uncle Sam, so even though it's in Oklahoma City, it's a project that all of us are helping to fund. No doubt, many motorists from El Reno, Shawnee, Chickasha and Norman will drive on the new road on their way to and from stores, businesses and events in Oklahoma City. That is, unless we're told to stay home and mind our own business.

For the upteenth time Tom - Almost everyone on here is in favor of rail. We just don't want Union Station to be the center of a large freight/mail processing facility with hundreds of semi-trucks lined up on city streets waiting to load/unload. It really is no more complicated than that. America will survive without a railyard at Union Station no matter what they think in Dallas or Buffalo or Denver or El Reno or Norman or Shwnee or Lawton or ....

BTW - The rail station Chattanooga, TN was turned in to a hotel along time ago.
http://www.choochoo.com/

Natural gas powered trains to where? Who's paying and who's riding? I agree with Kerry. No one is saying no to trains, light rail or any alternative transportation. It's the location of the station people are arguing about. The small town leaders are being told half-truths in an attempt to agitate them about something I can guarantee you they're not willing to pay for and are unlikely to have significant ridership on.

IMPRESSIVE RECENT FILINGS IN STB CASE FD 35164

Check recent STB filings in this case at http://stb.dot.gov Click on "ENHANCED SEARCH," then on "Filings." Search by Docket Number: FD 35164

Hey guys, right now it's pretty much junk/salvage yards with crap everywhere...why don't we ditch the idea of cleanup...save the $...and just build a massive station there. That way when you're riding on the rail into and out of the station it will be kind of like riding on Marta in some areas of Atlanta...nice ghettofied neighborhoods around the transit hub!

HEY, gotta look at all sides, ya know? :tiphat:

Some areas down there remind me of that movie Nothing But Trouble...VALKENVANIA! ha ha...

Hey guys, right now it's pretty much junk/salvage yards with crap everywhere...why don't we ditch the idea of cleanup...save the $...and just build a massive station there. That way when you're riding on the rail into and out of the station it will be kind of like riding on Marta in some areas of Atlanta...nice ghettofied neighborhoods around the transit hub!

HEY, gotta look at all sides, ya know? :tiphat:

Some areas down there remind me of that movie Nothing But Trouble...VALKENVANIA! ha ha...

Interesting plan. Union Station can be the rose on the dung heap.

BNSF SENT THEM $1400 BUCKS AS A "FILING FEE"??? Yeah, right, filing fee...jeez...i'm in the wrong business.

betts,

I'm still working on scanning in all of the work I had done so far.

Did you get the last PM I sent you?

Betts sez: The small town leaders are being told half-truths in an attempt to agitate them about something I can guarantee you they're not willing to pay for and are unlikely to have significant ridership on.
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Norman and Chickasha are both college towns. Lawton is also a college town, and home of the Army's Field Artillery Center. I'm just guessing you might have more than a little trouble passing many wooden nickels there.

El Reno, meanwhile, is a railroad town, having been the District point for the Rock Island and its successors for many years, and boasting one of the largest and most active chapters of NARVRE, the National Association of Retired and Veteran Railroad Employees, in the nation. Any number of recent city councilors there are railroad people. They know the business and the lay of the state's assets backwards and forwards.

Shawnee, also, has long benefited from similar influence - another city with an active railway retiree chapter -- and home of the legendary Jim Townsend, former Rock Island engineer, State Representative (who wrote the 1981 legislation purchasing the first 750 miles of railway for the state) and Corporation Commissioner. This is not to mention the academicians, currently teaching and leading at OBU or St. Gregory's, or retired. Folks like Dr. Robert Barnard -- who has long fought for enhancement of local rail assets, including the failed effort to save the Wrangler plant for Seminole by reviving its rail access.

And -- by the way -- they didn't learn this stuff from me over the last 23 years. I learned it from them.

TOM ELMORE

...and all of those towns added together are half the population of OKC proper. So I think "small town" is an acurate description.

No one is removing rails from any of these towns to Oklahoma City. Let's be realistic here. We're talking about removing SOME existing rails for what amounts to several city blocks.

I have yet to see any ridership studies or offers of financial contributions from any of these towns. Shawnee wants people from Oklahoma City to ride the train to their casinos, according to the article I saw. That should be a good reason for them to offer a significant amount of money to help finance the rail line, no?

Kerry sez: ...and all of those towns added together are half the population of OKC proper. So I think "small town" is an acurate description.
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...and your point is?

Truth is truth no matter where it comes from. Similarly, "ignorance."

AS with ODOT and unfortunate past OKC leadership, the parameters of the argument conveniently and quite arbitrarily "change" to elude the counter arguments.

The 20-Year Plan Update Transportation Working Group was told, "Oklahoma City really has no part in the Crosstown -- it's a FEDERAL PROJECT on a federal corridor." Of course, that simply was not true -- but it gave "certain folks" what they felt to be plausible deniability.

Now, ODOT and certain OKC interests insist it was "really an Oklahoma City project all the time" -- so what are cities "20 miles from downtown" doing trying to intervene?

Which is it?

TOM ELMORE

Tom - I was a city planner in Florida and I can tell you for a fact that municipal jurisdictions have very little say in state and federal projects. Granted I didn't work for a city the size of OKC but I was a member of the Metropolitan Panning Organization for an area with a population of 3X metro OKC. When the state wanted to expand a state road through our community from a 2 lane road to an 8 lane mega road they didn't ask us crap about it. They only told us where the road was going to go and where we had move city owned utilities.

We even asked that a new stop light be put in near a new Wal-Mart Supercenter. Wal-Mart even offered to pay for the light. The state said no and 10 years later there is still not la ight at that intersection.

"Can't never did do nothin'," my grandmother used to say.

Truer words were never spoken.

There's no excuse for a plan to destroy the state's rail center. No argument can be made for it.

God help me, I, for one, will continue to fight for it. Others can do as they will.

TOM ELMORE

I can think of 4...

I'm going to fight for Oklahoma City myself, and what I think it needs. Rail is only one piece of a huge puzzle, and if it's not done right, it destroys the rest. As I said, make Union Station a commercial freight hub and you've ruined one of the more beautiful old buildings we have, as well as Core to Shore. Plan mass transit poorly, and you've not only ruined an opportunity to get people out of their cars, but you've wasted billions of dollars.

"Can't never did do nothin'," my grandmother used to say.

Truer words were never spoken.

There's no excuse for a plan to destroy the state's rail center. No argument can be made for it.

God help me, I, for one, will continue to fight for it. Others can do as they will.

TOM ELMORE

Earth to Tom: Union Station is not the state's rail center. It might have played a role 60 years ago, but not today. You showed up for the battle 60 years too late. Individual transportation won.

I don't want big trains crisscrossing downtown. Who wants to go to a park and hear the roar of a train engine?

Just because Union Station will not be used as a railhub does not mean another can't be built elsewhere.

A FREAKING MEN ssandedoc

I think people that run the railroads ought to decide where railyards should be. To my knowledge no one who works for a railroad has suggested that Union Station be turned into anything other than what it is now, office/storage.

Tom thinks non-impacted municipal governments should determine the location of railyards despite what the railroads want.

Tell us again Tom how your way of thinking is better.

If, as you claim, you've been involved in city planning on an official level somewhere, you know better.

Which "railroad" was it, again, that uses OKC Union Station for offices and storage?

Which "railroad" operates DART Rail? And Rail Runner Express? And all the other new regional rail transit systems around the nation?

Why did the commercial railroad companies get out of passenger service? Could it have had anything to do with the politically-driven, arbitrary removal of the sustaining US Mail contracts? And roughly two-thirds of the floor space at the OKC Union Station terminal building is -- what? Mail and Express handling facility.

Why throw a lot of BS in the air -- when you know better?

Maybe you "don't know better?"

Maybe filling the air with nonsense is your mission?

And as to the commercial railroad companies -- what are they doing for you here in OKC lately? Blocking arterial street crossings hour-to-hour all over the metro. One local business has a constantly repeated slogan about its location on all its radio commercials - "where there's always a train when you're in a hurry..."

That's more and more the case as there are more and more trains. So why would leaders in their right minds be eliminating underpasses and overpasses instead of taking a crash course to build as many more as possible? Maybe because we have a governor who apparently believes "nothing has changed over the last seven years?"

Why would BNSF, already awash in liability exposure because of its many at-grade highway-rail crossings, willingly trade the highest quality east-west corridor with longstanding underpasses at Robinson and Walker for exclusively at-grade rail crossings? Because it won't be operating that line. It doesn't care. The business it does in Oklahoma City doesn't really make a flyspeck on its annual-revenue windshield -- and it's apparently not interested in growing existing business. So who gets stuck with the problem of another place where "there's always a train when you're in a hurry?"

You do. Your kids do. Your relatives, friends and neighbors do.

But, I'm sure that doesn't bother a sincere fellow like you -- just as long as "the people who run the railroads made the decision."

Right?

TOM ELMORE

Why did the commercial railroad companies get out of passenger service? Could it have had anything to do with the arbitrary removal of the sustaining US Mail contracts? And roughly two-thirds of the floor space at the OKC Union Station terminal building is -- what? Mail and Express handling facility.

TOM ELMORE

There, you said it yourself......Union Station is obsolete.

None of the commercial railroad companies have any plans to return to the passenger rail business and the U.S. postal service has no desire or plan to ever use it as a postal facility again.....in fact they closed the downtown postal facility across the street from it and sold the property.

Union Station went belly up over 40 years ago for a reason and that reason has not changed.

Nope. I didn't say such a thing.

You said it.

But, then -- you don't actually know anything about the subject, do you?

TOM ELMORE

I know the Four Undeniable Facts

Fact 1 - Union Station is not currently used as a train station.
Fact 2 - There is not a plan by anyone to use Union Station as a train station.
Fact 3 - The 2 existing active rail lines passing by Union Station will not be removed.
Fact 4 - Union Station will not be torn down.

I also know that the postal facility across from Union Station was closed and the property was sold and there are no future plans to use Union Station as a postal facilty.

I know that as a taxpayer that I want the the new I-40 crosstown finished as planned.

I know that at this point I don't want one penny of MY tax dollars spent on commuter rail to El Reno or Shawnee.

I know that I have read every word of every one of your posts in this thread and I remain wholey and totally unswayed by your opinions on the matter.

This is getting even more ridiculous. To say that none of know what we are talking about is absurd, I'm a resident and taxpayer of Oklahoma City. It's Oklahoma City residents plus visitors who would be using the proposed Union Station and rail system. Most of the people who are on this forum are active citizens who like to know what's going on in downtown.

None of us have to have a degree in engineering or city planning to understand that Union Station as a railroad hub is not feasible.

Why?

Because it sits eight blocks away from the business district. Because there's not a metro rail system in place for ridership population. Most people drive and do not take the metro. No one wants trains running and steaming through our central park. I-40 needs to be built now for safety reasons. We can't financially or for safety afford any delays.

But again, this will get glossed over by you Tom. Please accept there's a counterpoint to you. It's not going to kill you. I applaud your efforts and research, but the citizens have spoken.