Theo, I think Solitude is right in many ways.

You dont get people to 'see the light' by offending them. I understand your point-of-view (because I agree, to me it's a no-brainer). But, people are entitled to their opinion AND many of the no vote people have valid points.

But bottom line is - OKC can't YET act that way. It is a NEW city to the big leagues, and as such needs to pay-the-price so to say, in order to join the club. Think of it as a fraternity rush, where pledges (such as OKC) have to get rushed into the frat (as in NBA league of cities). In order to get in, you have to do what the seniors tell you (which usually means PAY UP in some sort of fashion).

I know sol you have changed to yes, and I do applaud you for that :) so hopefully we can convince others that THIS TIME we need to lay down our personal pride a bit and have some CIVIC PRIDE!! Next time (if there is one, we can make things right....)

Theo (and others), Vote Yes for your City!!!

My questions for the city council of Oklahoma City

tctmao6rJxE

Here is what David was trying to post ...

tctmao6rJxE&rel=1

BTW, David, double-posting is sometimes frowned on here ... but you probably didn't know that and I am being your accomplice, this one time! :dizzy:

I went back and fixed the embed and then I was a new member so there was a lag in my posts showing up. I never meant to double post in any thread or topic. Thanks.

Just be honest. And don't take any help from the Seattle folks, because they do not have your best interests at heart. Especially Chris Van Dyke, who's theme you used in one of the sentences of your video. There's no one in Seattle who wants to do anything to help OKC, believe me. Or, if they're "helping", their help is based on self interest. Seattle's only hope of keeping their NBA team is if this vote doesn't pass. It's possible the team will go to Kansas City, Las Vegas, Louisville, Anaheim or elsewhere, but it's also possible that Bennett will get discouraged and sell the team to Seattle locals.

Which theme, which sentence. Let me know, I will be able to tell you where it came from. I promise I have probably done more research into to this topic: Arena Economics, NBA Economics, Taxes, Corporate Welfare than anyone else on OKC Talk. I wish people could try to strip away the emotion and think and understand what is really going on.

Which theme, which sentence. Let me know, I will be able to tell you where it came from. I promise I have probably done more research into to this topic: Arena Economics, NBA Economics, Taxes, Corporate Welfare than anyone else on OKC Talk. I wish people could try to strip away the emotion and think and understand what is really going on.
David, I think that some of us here are hoping that you have the ability to do the same. You are just one person and you have no corner on the "truth" or facts. I'm working up a detailed reply, but just now I'm going to go watch the Hornets v. Rockets game, presently more important to me than finishing that project. Later, I'll get back to it and will post it ... either here on in your video thread. But, puhlease do not be so arrogant to think that those who might deign to disagree with you are uninformed or ignorant of the facts. Whether it be you, or some other poster who presumes to know so much better than all the rest, your or their (or my) presumed superiority in knowledge will not be positively rewarded. Unless you have the openness to acknowledge that you may be wrong, you will not likely find an audience to your liking here. Or anywhere outside of those who think and feel exactly as you do. Then, you'd be talking to yourself.

This afternoon, I've closely looked at what you said to the Council, and much of what you said is/was clearly wrong, in my opinion. My reply will follow shortly, saying why I think that way. Now, I'm gone to the game.

Most of the video was questions: Kinda like. VOTE NO = Lower Taxes. Who is funding all the advertising? The NBA can come without taxpayer funded luxury improvements. 121 Million divided by 550,000 residents is the equivalent of $200+ on every man woman and child. Not all but most of the $200 will be on the citizens of OKC. Do most citizens think there is where they want their money to go? Is this the most important thing? Do you think it is misleading that Cornett says - a yes vote won't raise taxes? What can't occur in the Ford Center now? Roy Williams said it is basically required by NBA economics - do you know why? I do. How about we go somewhere with a video camera we both get equal time and we both present our cases and post it.

You have all the time you want on this forum, David.

Why do you need a video camera?

Do you crave the attention? Are you looking for personal recognition?

I don't type fast. I don't have a video camera. I post my real name. I think we could both encapsulate our case and the other would reply. I think the televised debates are much more interesting than back and forth forums. More people can watch, than will read.

There is an additional fact that people might not know. Our elderly and the poor are eligible for a sales tax refund.

Oklahoma credit/refund of sales tax:
http://www.tax.ok.gov/it2007/538-S-07-W.pdf
credit/refund of $40 per person:
- persons with under $20,000 in gross household income
- persons with one dependent, or 65 years old or older, or physically disabled with under $50,000 in gross household income

People on TANF (welfare) get a sales tax refund in their monthly benefit.
- DHS makes sales tax refunds to those who are blind, disabled, or receive medicaid for nursing home care.

I just can't figure this out. All of the economist tell us pro-sports teams don't have any economic value but for some reason every time a team moves the host city files a lawsuit to keep them. Go figure.

I understand the arguement that people only shift their disposable income from one venue to another when they go see a team play but what gets left out of the equations is the location of those venues. My guess is that a fair amount of people that attended Hornets games were from outside the OKC city limits. That would mean that people shift their spending from Edmond, Shawnee, Norman, etc to OKC and Bricktown. Sure, X number of dollars were spent but where it is spent is the key.

Don't get me started on the crumbling road, schools, and parks comment. Isn't OKC just finishing up a $500 million school renovation called MAPS for Kids and didn't the city just approve nearly $1 billion for roads, parks, etc? One thing I hate more than anything is mis-information. Just present the facts and let people make up thier minds.

NBA economics, What they want to have happen, and what will probably happen. Have the tax payers pay for the the arena, turn over arena to team (for all concerts, tourneys etc.), make taxpayers pay for improvements - focus needs to be on revenue profit extracting improvements - that is the over riding reason for them, nba team keeps almost everything except pays city usually less than 1% return on the 100% taxpayer financed investment. That is how the game is played.

Since you want to paint the NBA and team owners as bad guys and you're a self professed expert, I've got a few questions, David.

How much is the city making off the Ford Center now? How about the Bricktown Ballpark? How about the Civic Center? Should the city have entertainment venues? Should we have waited for billionaires to build those things for us?

How much is the NBA contributing to the new arenas in Tulsa, Wichita, Omaha, Louisville and Kansas City?

How much private investment followed the public investmest of MAPS 1 in our downtown area. Wouldn't that be considered economic gain? Weren't all those projects public amenities that would in one way or another be for entertainment?

Lastly, Since you want to portray the Sonics owners as trying to take advantage of the poor citizens of OKC maybe you can tell me how much they have contributed to our city and state through philanthropic means in the last 20 years? How much profit are they likely to make on the half-billion dollars they have spent to bring the NBA to OKC?

Which theme, which sentence. Let me know, I will be able to tell you where it came from. I promise I have probably done more research into to this topic: Arena Economics, NBA Economics, Taxes, Corporate Welfare than anyone else on OKC Talk. I wish people could try to strip away the emotion and think and understand what is really going on.

It's pretty simple really...We continue paying a current tax for another 15 months and that lands us a great arena and our first ever major league sports team

Really no need to research this extensively...We are getting an NBA team for super cheap w/o paying anything extra...Ford even w/ the upgrades would be one of the cheapest arenas in the league

What is really going on is 8 guys spent a half billion combined on a team to move it to their hometown...Flip side is 1.5 million+ people aren't paying anything outside of what they currently shell out

Dam* those evil NBA owners!!!

There are a lot of us who have done research into the economics of sports. In the interests of educating myself I suffered through Baade and Zimbalist and a few hangers on. I've read every argument, and I agree with a bunch of them. But it gets down to several things alluded to above. You cannot look at everything you support in a city in economic terms. Again, we get a terrible return on our investment in public parks, I'm pretty sure the Civic Center has events that are not only more expensive to attend than an NBA game, but it still needs financial support to stay afloat, I'm not sure what we're making on those overdue book fees at our public libraries, but I suspect it's not keeping them in the black. We support those amenities, and a multitude of others, because we know they improve quality of life for our citizens, even if we lose money on them.

The way I look at this, and you obviously look at it differently, having an NBA team is about having more options for leisure time activities, especially in the winter when here it's cold, dark and wet. We're not Miami. Our citizens can't loll on the beach in the winter. We're not Phoenix where you can actually go swimming or hiking. We're not Salt Lake City or Denver, where you can go skiing on the worst of days. Having an NBA team gives us 41 winter nights when there's something to do downtown that an entire family can enjoy together, that the city of Oklahoma City, and even the state, can enjoy together. You cannot put a dollar value on that.

The other problem with all the economists' work, is that there really isn't another city quite like Oklahoma City. We suffer under some fairly negtive labeling nationally. We're a hick town, it's a dustbowl here, we're rednecks, hillbillys, and worse. Even in less pejorative terms, if you did a national poll, we'd probably rank highest in recognition for the Murrah bombing, and then people who'd never been here would probably run out of adjectives. They don't know much about us. We're some small, maybe midwestern city without any distinguishing features. I've got a friend in commercial real estate, and this is obviously just anecdotal, but he told me that when the Hornets came here, and we started getting some national buzz, which was almost exclusively on ESPN and in major newspapers, the interest around the country in commercial real estate in OKC was off the charts compared to immediately prior to that time. This is something he told me without being prompted, and it was over a year ago. I'm not manufacturing a comment for this current argument. Obviously you don't have to believe me, but I'm not in the habit of inventing information. Quite frankly, Oklahoma City needs something to change the national perception of us, and in a country of sports fans, having an NBA team would give us a positive association to add to our national image.

Zimbalist had to admit, also, that there was something unique about Western cities that were located three or more hours away from other cities with professional teams. People outside that city actually came to events, and so there was positive cash influx that you could directly relate to having a sports team in that city. I know that at least the first year, 20% of the Hornets' season tickets were sold to people in Tulsa, and even some to people in Wichita and Kansas City, believe it or not. That doesn't count people from Stillwater, Enid, Lawton, etc who came to games, and I know there were those as well. Again, in a state without a lot of entertainment options, we'll drive to entertain ourselves. I used to go to a couple of Mavericks games in Dallas every winter, and I know that's unusual, but I also know I'm not the only one who's done that. My money stayed in Oklahoma City the two years the Hornets were here, instead of being spent in Dallas.

And, as Easy says above, "We are getting an NBA team for super cheap w/o paying anything extra...Ford even w/ the upgrades would be one of the cheapest arenas in the league." To that I say, "Why wouldn't we take advantage of this unique opportunity which is offered only to the few? Why wouldn't we want an NBA team?" And, as Kerry says, "All of the economist tell us pro-sports teams don't have any economic value but for some reason every time a team moves the host city files a lawsuit to keep them. Go figure."

That's because even cities like Seattle recognize a team has value. It always boils down to whether you want to pay for it or not. The problem is, if you don't pay, you don't play, as Seattle is learning. I don't know why anyone would think the rules are different for us, or we're somehow special and the rules don't apply to us.

betts, you always say exactly what I'm thinking.. only much better!

Great points and exactly what I've been thinking about for months.

I've said it before, civic pride is something that people are not associating with this move, but I've seen it and felt it when we had such positive and rave reviews for our city while hosting the Hornets.

I'm ready to have the nation finally recognize that OKC is a great city... and what better way to get recognition than to have our very own professional NBA team?

*Last week my husband was wearing a Dallas Cowboys sweatshirt and a friend from CA said, 'why are you wearing Dallas - oh wait, OK doesn't have any pro teams does it?' hahahahaha - ugh

Vote Yes!

After being away this past week, for one reason, or another, I decided to catch-up on how this topic was going. As I anticipated, not a lot has changed. Generally speaking, the same proponents of this issue are still respectivly, and for many legitimate reasons, touting the YES vote. While the few minority opponents to this issue maintain their positions, and continue to give ligitimate reasons for voting NO.

Some opponents, myself included, believe that at least a few of our reasons for voting NO are legitimate. Not all, but some. It's also been quite evident, that to get any of those on the Yes side to agree that any of us on the NO side has a legitimate reason to vote NO, period. Has been difficult at best. But who doesn't like a good challenge?

For the most part during this debate both sides have maintained a civil decorum and been able to stay on the high road. Sure, it's true some here have stepped down into the gutter from time to time with our remarks, and our comments. Again, I include myself. But Theo you have taken your dislike, and your lack of respect for those of us who differ from your opinion on this upcoming vote to a new low.

You refer to us as common, unintelligent, stupid, moronic retarded Islamic baboons. It's not so much the name calling that troubles me. No, it's your uncommon, unintelligent, stupid, moronic retarded baboon assed attitude.

I think there's a very defensible reason to vote no. It is: "I don't want to pay that penny tax anymore." That's very tricky to rebut, so I'd suggest people who want to vote no and don't want to meet with any objections stick with that one.

I only object to gross exaggerations of how much the tax will cost individuals on the average, insistence that the team owners are going to make buckets of money without any data to back up that assertion, and people insisting we're getting an NBA team even if we don't pass the tax proposal who don't admit that it is their opinion as an individual, and they have no statements from anyone reputable to back it up.

I doubt anyone is going to change anyone's mind here, unless someone is reading who doesn't have any real information on the subject. And then, they've clearly been shown both sides of the issue.

Oh, and I agree that either side completely dimishes the quality of their argument with any name callling.

121 Million divided by 550,000 residents is the equivalent of $200+ on every man woman and child. Not all but most of the $200 will be on the citizens of OKC.

How you think that nobody outside the city buys things inside the city, I have no idea. Ever heard of Penn Square Mall? Quail Springs Mall? Crossroads Mall?


Do you think it is misleading that Cornett says - a yes vote won't raise taxes?

No. Penny sales tax. Period. Exactly the same as we've had for over 10 years.

Besides if you don't want to support the tax just come down to Moore and buy stuff or Norman or The Village or Warr Acres or Edmond.

The publicity campaign is getting its a-- kicked.

I'm enjoying watching it.

:congrats: This vote will NOT pass.

I hear Seattle is beautiful.

The publicity campaign is getting its a-- kicked.

I'm enjoying watching it.

:congrats: This vote will NOT pass.

If not, we don't deserve a team and are not ready for one. That's what David Stern thought five years ago, and I'll have to sadly agree with him if it happens.

There's no such thing as "deserving" the NBA, any more than a city "deserves" Taco Mayo or O'Reilly's Auto Parts.

The NBA is just a business that provides television programming. There's nothing magic or special about that. The reason they flog this 'elite status' stuff is because there's really no 'there' there. If people looked at pro sports the way they look at every other spending decision in their lives, there probaby wouldn't be any pro sports beyond tennis and golf and the PBA.

If people looked at pro sports the way they look at every other spending decision in their lives, there probaby wouldn't be any pro sports beyond tennis and golf and the PBA.

I assume you got this statistic from the Bureau of Keister Extraction, because it doesn't make a lick of sense, and what's more, when did you become the arbiter of how people look at spending decisions? You been hiding in Ben Bernanke's linen closet or something?

Projection. Look it up.

Well, it's not a statistic at all, as I suspect you realize.

I became the arbiter of how people look at spending decisions when they decided I needed to pay 15 months worth of sales tax so they wouldn't have to undergo the humiliation of being seen in out-of-town team jerseys.

Well, it's not a statistic at all, as I suspect you realize.

I became the arbiter of how people look at spending decisions when they decided I needed to pay 15 months worth of sales tax so they wouldn't have to undergo the humiliation of being seen in out-of-town team jerseys.

As I've said, it's not so much fun paying your kids' tuition either. Let's make a deal. You pay a few cents a day for 15 months, and I'll help send your kids to school for 12 years. I think you're getting the better part of the bargain.

No deal. I don't have kids and I pay property taxes like everyone else. And I don't mind supporting schools, because I think an educated populace contributes to the well-being of society as a whole.

I'm flabbergasted that I am continually seeing attempts to draw parallels between supporting schooling for our children and an NBA team, as if the two were of equal value.

You missed the point completely, bornhere. Of COURSE they're not equivalent. I was being rhetorical, just as your prior statement was.

The point is that there are all sorts of things within our community that are not used by 100% of the populace, and yet they're supported by the taxes of 100% of the populace. Besides schools, which are obviously incredibly worthy of support, and which I also have supported without complaint (except this week, to prove a point), you do have streets and public services, which I have also obviously never complained about supporting, and which it's hard to argue about.

But then you get into all sorts of other things. Parks, the Civic Center, the Zoo, Museums, the Redhawks Stadium, the Botanical Tube, even public libraries, which are as much a place to be social and use the computer nowadays as they are places to read. As individual items, there are a lot of people in the city who never use them. As a whole, most people in the city have used or enjoyed at least one of them. We all support all of them with our taxes. Yes, you could remove one of them, and the city would not be much different. But remove them all, and you have a city which has nothing to offer.

Is leisure time valuable to us as a society? I would argue yes. Are we only defined by our jobs? Can there be an auto mechanic who also enjoys the ballet, and a college professor who likes basketball? Is one necessarily better than the other? I would argue no. I think leisure time activities are what most people work for, save money for. So, should I tell the auto mechanic that because I don't like the ballet and don't necessarily see it's cultural value that I think supporting the Civic Center is not our city's responsibility?

I see all leisure time amenities in our city as important, and I don't place value judgements on them. If the city asked me to support a NASCAR track, a "sport" that completely disinterests me, I would agree, because I know there are people in my community who love NASCAR. I feel the same way about the zoo, the Civic Center, etc. So, even if I hated basketball, I would think it's important for the city to support bringing a team here, because it's a source of leisure time enjoyment for many people. The fact that I also think it's good for a city like ours plays into it as well, as does the fact that I'd like to see the Ford Center updated and improved whether we get a team or not.

I don't believe, and I realize this is my opinion, that it's our place to pick and choose what is valuable to others. If we want to be a growing, vibrant city, with many leisure time acitivities for a diverse population, then, I think we can pass a 15 month tax that costs most of us a few pennies a day. If it were ten years, I might feel differently. Fifteen months. I'll never miss that money. I throw more change in my change jar every day than that tax is going to cost me.

betts, I think about 19 Thousand + other people who were able to get tickets to the Hornets games, agree with you... myself included.

For all of us, the NBA holds a lot of value.

After moving from CA, I was at a loss for things to do that the entire family could look forward to and enjoy together.

Like others have said, we don't have a lot of what other cities offer in terms of activities.

So for OKC to offer something as amazing, fun and enjoyable as the Hornets games (and for all ages) on a consistent basis was a godsend for our family.

When the Hornet's left, a void was left and for a penny sales tax, I'm more than willing to try to fill that void with another team.

I only hope that the NO voters don't ruin it for the entire community and state.

Not only does the NBA provide entertainment value, there are hundreds of examples of community service provided to locals by the team's players and owners.



Hornets Point Guard Chris Paul and His Foundation Feed 1000 Families





--Chris sponsored a Habitat for Humanity (http://news14.com/content/headlines/583960/chris-paul-sponsors-habitat-event/Default.aspx) event in Winston-Salem, NC in June and will host another Habitat Fundraiser there over a weekend in September



Chris has held a basketball camp in Oklahoma City (http://newsok.com/article/3067911) and just completed one in Winston-Salem (http://www.chrispaul3.com/ssp/youth_camps).



“I was really curious whether they were going to have the camp because I knew the (Hornets) were going back to New Orleans. I think it means a lot that (Paul) stayed here and did this for the kids. And he's present at the camp. That was one of my concerns, would he actually be involved? And he is.”


Community News



Hornets Believe in the Season of Giving (http://www.nba.com/hornets/community/Hornets_Believe_in_the_Season_-247088-1504.html)

Hoops for Homes Reaches Out to Teachers (http://www.nba.com/hornets/news/Hoops_for_Home_Reaches_Out_to_-245754-31.html)

Hornets Turkey Giveaway (http://www.nba.com/hornets/community/Hornets_Turkey_Giveaway-244669-1504.html)

Best Western International Drives Literacy in Gulf Coast Region With Hornets' Bookmobile (http://www.nba.com/hornets/news/BEST_WESTERN_INTERNATIONAL_DRI-244724-31.html)

Hornets Lend a Hand on the Gulf Coast (http://www.nba.com/hornets/community/Hornets_Believe_Hornets_Lend_-240454-1504.html)

Hilton Armstrong Makes 10,000 Donation (http://www.nba.com/hornets/community/Hilton_Armstrong_Makes_Donatio-236721-1504.html)



Hornets Debut Bookmobile In Oklahoma City


I could go on and on and I'm sure others can give examples of the value of a team that embraces the community.

We spent $52.4 million on the Civic Center. But I, along with thousands of others, got to see Yo-Yo Ma!! I doubt very seriously I would have had that opportunity without MAPS. I am grateful for that one performance alone.

I am quite certain not everyone appreciated the Civic Center improvements either nor cared anything about Yo-Yo Ma.

Not long ago several friends went to see the Ten Tenors. We had supper at an Oklahoma City restaurant where the tab was nearly $200. We filled up at an Oklahoma City gas station. We parked at a lot in Oklahoma City. We all decided we'd be back for other performances.

Just the other day my son and a group of other men took all their children to the Ford Center. I can't even estimate what they spent.

But economics aside it is the opportunity to experience such things that is beyond measure.

I am urging everyone I know that can to get out and vote for the Ford Center improvements.

Alright everybody! My b-day is exactly one week away from today (March 4). I would really REALLY like to have a great b-day, nothing would be better than a YES vote from EVERYBODY... and i know you guys want me to have a good b-day right?!? Thanx in advance! Haha, Seriously though... Vote YES on March 4th.

That's funny Watson, It's my sisters birthday as well.

Is anyone planning a watch party for next Tuesday night?

I might be too nervous for a watch party. But, if the measure passes, I want to do a celebratory party on Wednesday.

I'm guessing that the chamber will have one ... I surely hope so, whether the result be "good" (i.e, "Hell YES") or not. Either way, it will be a good time for closure ... I can get back to writing "history" stuff in my blog, put down this "political interlude," and get on with what's next.

There's an informal poll running on NewsOK.com that began yesterday, if anyone wants to chime in.....

NewsOK.com Article (http://newsok.com/article/3208807/1204045178)

I see the Oklahoman – where social darwinism is alive and well – is playing its tired old 'class envy' card (http://masterweb1.newsok.com/article/3207719) again.

Someone who wanted to spend the money on a Lexis/Nexis search for the past 30 or so years would probably find that the terms 'class envy' and 'class warfare' have appeared on the Oklahoman's editorial page more often than all the other nation's major editorial pages combined – and almost always in the context of some Gaylord clan member or other millionaire that shares their ultra-right wing political connections not getting some special treatment.

There probably isn't a week goes by that somewhere in Oklahoma, some millionaire doesn't get the winning bid on a contract, or is turned down for a zoning variance or suffers some other setback. But those aren't 'class envy.' It's only when the metro area's self-styled feudal overlords don't get what they want that it's because the peasantry is jealous of their superior status.

There's an informal poll running on NewsOK.com that began yesterday, if anyone wants to chime in.....

NewsOK.com Article (http://newsok.com/article/3208807/1204045178)

I wish there was an actual poll there and not just a comment board.

"I see the Oklahoman – where social darwinism is alive and well – is playing its tired old 'class envy' card again."


I thought this was a very good editorial but after reading your previous posts, I can't say I'm suprised you only saw two words on the page.....


Arena choice: Plan a winner for Oklahoma City

The Oklahoman Editorial

WHEN he first disclosed plans to seek a taxpayer-funded upgrade to the Ford Center, in order to give Oklahoma City a shot at landing a pro basketball franchise, Mayor Mick Cornett summed things up this way: "This is a choice. We can choose to be an NBA city, or we can choose not to be.”

It really is that simple. Those who live in Oklahoma City and want to see our city continue the momentum that's been more than a decade in the making need to choose "yes” on March 4, a week from Tuesday.

A yes vote would mean approval of a 1-cent sales tax, to begin the day after the current MAPS for Kids tax expires at year's end. The arena tax would last about 15 months and fund major improvements to the Ford Center and construction of a practice facility. New restaurants, better concession areas and other upgrades would be the result — essentially a new arena.

With a yes vote, Oklahoma City voters would be saying they believe that what transpired here with the New Orleans Hornets — when we knocked the NBA's socks off with our support of the displaced squad — wasn't a fluke but instead was a sign of things to come, if only the city got the chance.

A yes vote would signal to others in the region, indeed around the country, that Oklahoma City is more than just that place where the awful bombing happened, and instead is a vibrant and growing city that wants to grow even more. Joining the NBA community would help that happen — we've written previously about the league's remarkable and ever-growing global reach.

A yes vote would make it easy for the NBA's board of governors to approve the relocation of the Seattle SuperSonics to Oklahoma City. The NBA's commissioner has said it's clear the Sonics will be moving on, because there's no resolution in sight to an ongoing beef with ownership. Oklahoma City is first in line for the Sonics' new address, but we'll be erased from the list if the tax is defeated.

Opponents of the March 4 proposition lean heavily on class envy arguments, saying the team's wealthy owners — all Oklahoma City businessmen — should pay for arena upgrades and a practice site if they want their team here. The reality is that taxpayer-funded facilities are the norm in pro cities. From Jerry Jones' new home for the Dallas Cowboys to George Steinbrenner's new Yankee Stadium, public dollars are helping pay at least some of the freight.

And there's much to be said for local ownership. If the Sonics come here, it's fair to expect that the men who have already invested so heavily in their team will do everything they can to make it work, for their team and the city.

Oklahoma City has been transformed in the past 10-15 years. A yes vote March 4 would help continue that transformation. And a no vote? "I think it kills our momentum — 10 years of positive momentum,” Cornett said.

We'll choose the former.

Bornhere - Do you read your own posts? You are the king of class-envy/warfare. How many times have you and others like you used the phrase "maps for millionaires" or crowned yourself savior of the poor?

I posted this elsewhere, but wanted to repeat it so people would have a chance to read the story: The Gazette this week features the arena question, and it's a good article. I would also like to point out that the publisher of the Gazette has come out in favor of the tax proposal, and his editorial is in last week's issue.

I posted this elsewhere, but wanted to repeat it so people would have a chance to read the story: The Gazette this week features the arena question, and it's a good article. I would also like to point out that the publisher of the Gazette has come out in favor of the tax proposal, and his editorial is in last week's issue.
In fact, the following metro newspapers have done the same, representing their diverse slice/perspestive of the metropolitan area:


The Oklahoman.
The Gazette.
The Journal Record.
The Black Dispatch.

If you need links, I'll amend this post to give them. But as for newspapers, the support seems to be unanimous.

Others on the internet want us to vote "No." David Glover has joined the forum and has said "why" he feels that way via the video he posted, but without rejoining the serious discourse presented HERE which detailed an opposing point of view ... maybe that will yet occur ... and then we've got march4vote.org which isn't even based in Oklahoma City but is instead a product of a San Francisco guy who apparently sees himself as an "ombudsman" in opposition to any publicly funded arena ... see Doug Dawgz Blog: www.march4vote.org (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2008/02/wwwmarch4voteorg.html) ... and then we've got the Maps for Millionaires guys ( mapsformillionaires.org (http://mapsformillionaires.org) ) who take an inordinate pleasure in bashing Oklahoma City people who have a truckload of money and who are willing to move that truck southwesterly to Oklahoma City.

These guys are just plain silly. In none of their remarks/objections do they really come to grips with the issues a hand, one week from today. Worse, their jargon is typically very misleading and contrived and, worse, is sometimes completely a lie.

Oklahoma City has a modern (post-MAPS) history that has catapulted this city from where it was pre-MAPS into the current day ... a YES vote on March 4 continues that progress ... a YES vote, at the least, gets us a spiffy new arena about which Tulsans (among others) can but envy and which assures Oklahoma City's identity as a place to come to in the decades which follow.

A YES vote may, as well, get Oklahoma City an NBA team. It's a no-lose proposition.

So, David Glover, S Hunt, and the internet no-name and not from Oklahoma City march4vote.org, if you've got something to say that can stand th light of day, as opposed to your safe havens where you don't have that type of scrutiny, this is your time and place to engage for all to see ... the vote is one week from today.

And, for sure, Vote HELL YES!

Bornhere - Do you read your own posts? You are the king of class-envy/warfare. How many times have you and others like you used the phrase "maps for millionaires" or crowned yourself savior of the poor?

I am only me. I am not "others like me." I may be wrong, but I don't think I've used the phrase 'MAPS for Millionaires' at all. I haven't crowned myself savior of anyone.

Here's more: I don't need a pro sports franchise in town to feel good about myself.

I don't wear sports souvenir clothing, so I'm not going to be humiliated by someone else having some tank top or jersey I can't trump.

I don't care whether Tulsa or Seattle or any other city is jealous of us.

I don't need to invite David Stern or the Sonics partners into my heart as personal lord and savior at a $100 million altar call.

If we let Big Daddy down on March 4, the sun will rise as always on March 5.

Oklahoma City 15 years ago began a process known as MAPS. It has been tremendous in transforming our city, with over 5 billion in direct 3rd party investment all for the $390 million spent in the first MAPS vote.

We then looked to revitalizing our schools so we passed MAPS for Kids and invested almost 3.4 of a billion dollars on the school district and surrounding districts.

Now we are beginning to see some of the realities come to fruition from the original MAPS and that is a professional team to call oklahoma city home and be the permanent resident of the Ford Center.

When we built the Ford Center we built it bare bones for just under $90 million. We need to finish it . We need to take our unfinished diamond and turn it in to a crown jewel that will compete with some of the best arenas in the nation as well as keep above the curve that Tulsa, Kansas City, Omaha and others have built in the surrounding areas.

The economic impact will be beneficial to those that work in the service industry from waitstaff, to bartenders or those who work in the hotels. This is going to be a big deal and add more life and growth in our beautiful downtown. Once I-40 is relocated and the old crosstown is torn down in 2 years it will add to the growth in the Core 2 Shore development that will become part of MAPS 3.

Voting yes will begin raising the city to a tier 2 city that will bring bigger conventions, more tourism, greater growth and more tax revenues that will aid in keeping the projects that we do debt free.

Why sell bonds or take loans when a simple tax extension will allow for better return on investment, be interest and debt free and still owned fully by the city. Allowing for a better negotiation term on the NBA lease that it is a win for all those involved.

This is more then MAPS for Millionaires, it is about do we want to take the next logical step and raise the status and the level of our city. Do we want to remain like Wichita, Tulsa, Omaha or do we want to move to be like Charlotte, Portland, Memphis and other great cities similar to ours.

Let's Vote Yes for Progress.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I especially liked your point about bringing the original MAPS plans to fruition. Wasn't a professional team the ultimate goal all along? Who ever thought we would get this chance? Not me for sure and I would hate to give this chance away. This is the chance to bring this sprawling metro a true central gathering place. A way for us to come together not as crimson or orange but green and gold (not my favorite I must admit). This will bring more jobs to the center of town to people who need jobs closer to where they live which will make a better public transportation system more viable. Not to mention the publicity that comes with having an NBA team. During the Big 12 tournament I met a guy from Austin who kept going on and on about what a great city we have here. I could not believe it. I have always considered Austin to be one of the coolest cities in America and he thought we were cool. I was so proud I could have died. Let's keep the momentum up OKCitians.

I don't care whether Tulsa or Seattle or any other city is jealous of us.

I don't need to invite David Stern or the Sonics partners into my heart as personal lord and savior at a $100 million altar call.

If we let Big Daddy down on March 4, the sun will rise as always on March 5.

That is about the most backward attitude I have ever seen on this board. You try to hide it behind "the sun will come out tomorrow" optimism, but really you are just anti-progress.

How do you suppose we continue to compete for jobs, business, expanded retail, conventions, etc. if we don't continue the momentum of MAPS? We have to make the other cities jealous, or we fade into the history books as a one hit wonder as Devon and Chesapeake depart for greener pastures.

the sales tax continuation is going to pass. there is a small and very vocal minority (vocal on internet boards, not in the real life) that opposes this public investment, but i really believe most residents of oklahoma city can see the progress that our previous MAPS projects have enabled, and trust that the ford center renovation will be a success as well. im sure the chamber has done their polling, and the fact that they havent pumped even more money into the campaign should be a sign of a successful referendum on tuesday. kevin durant will be fun to watch.

Here's more: I don't need a pro sports franchise in town to feel good about myself.

I don't wear sports souvenir clothing, so I'm not going to be humiliated by someone else having some tank top or jersey I can't trump.

I don't care whether Tulsa or Seattle or any other city is jealous of us.

I don't need to invite David Stern or the Sonics partners into my heart as personal lord and savior at a $100 million altar call.

If we let Big Daddy down on March 4, the sun will rise as always on March 5.

So basically you don't like sports....Fair enough....Does seem like you have a weird issue with people who wear jerseys though

Not a day goes by w/o walking by some guy in the parking lot pointing at his new jersey and laughing at what I'm wearing

Tulsa is building a $200 mil arena just an hours drive away...Folks up there answering an altar call as well or could it be possible they just want a real nice arena for the city they live in?

I didn't bring up the jersey thing. That was an issue raised by betts.


Not a day goes by w/o walking by some guy in the parking lot pointing at his new jersey and laughing at what I'm wearing

Are you serious? What parking lot is this? I can't imagine...

I don't actually object to capital improvements to the arena, except that it opens the door to the NBA coming in and demanding subsidies and incentives and rearranging of city goals and priorities to suit its needs instead of ours.

I brought up jerseys? I don't even wear jerseys. Unless you meant me saying that people in cities are seen wearing the jersey of the NBA team in that city. To which I would have to say....yes.

If it wasn't you, I apologize for saying it was. Someone said they were wearing a Dallas team jersey and were embarrassed because they encountered someone wearing a jersey or some other sports apparel from their home town, the implication being that we Oklahoma Cityans don't have the opportunity to wear home town sports jerseys.

I'm a little embarrassed we don't have a professional team, I must confess, having moved here from a city that has four. As I've said a few times, I don't like being lumped with Omaha and Wichita. I want to be an Indianapolis, Salt Lake City or Charlotte.

I'm a little embarrassed we don't have a professional team, I must confess, having moved here from a city that has four. As I've said a few times, I don't like being lumped with Omaha and Wichita. I want to be an Indianapolis, Salt Lake City or Charlotte.

You mean OU football and OSU basketball aren't "professional" enough for you? :biggrin:

Well, the 'lumped in' thing is pretty much arbitrary. I don't think of us as being 'lumped in' with anyone. I've lived in some other places, too. Each had its positives and negatives. I don't think we gain anything by trying to model ourselves after some other city.

I don't think we gain anything by trying to model ourselves after some other city.

You can't learn from others?

I saw my sister stick her finger in a light socket once. BZZZZT. I learned from that, and haven't done it myself.

I see good things in other cities (I've lived on both coasts, and in Denver), and now that I've moved back home, would like to see some of those good things happen here. LoDo in Denver is what Bricktown COULD be someday. I know that Coors Field made nights down there 10x better on game nights. San Diego has the Gaslamp area (among many other hot spots) and it's a super cool place to hang out as well.

I'll probably never go to a basketball game, but I'll reap the benefits of having a team by having a much better Bricktown/downtown.

You can't learn from others?

We could learn from Seattle.

We could learn from Seattle.We could. But we won't

We could. But we won't

Sure we will, no arena improvements - no NBA. How is that for learning?