The fact that owning a basketball team is reasonably likely to be a losing proposition means that a lot of people aren't going to be too interested in buying one. Here's a quote from a group of the smaller market NBA owners:

"Back in September(2006), a group of eight NBA owners, including Blazers' owner Paul Allen, that signed a letter that called for more sharing of revenue among the 30 NBA teams in order to help small-market teams gain better financial footing. The Seattle Times' Percy Allen wrote about this in November, quoting from the letter:
'If appropriately managed teams can't break even, let alone make a profit, we have an economic system that requires correction. The needed correction is serious revenue sharing not just modest revenue assistance and we urge you to address this issue on an urgent basis this year.'"

The issue was not addressed. You obviously have to have a passion for basketball or for your city if you're willing to take that kind of a risk. Here's a quote from David Stern about NBA teams in general, and Clay Bennett specifically:

"Mr. Stern: We have lots of teams that aren't profitable. And the last one just sold for $350 million."

So, this idea that Bennett et al are going to move the Sonics here and make pots of money is simply an opinion, and one without much basis in fact. Why should they move the team here, with that kind of risk, if the citizens of Oklahoma City won't pass an 18 month penny tax? This group has been a great group of supporters of Oklahoma City, but they've done enough already, in my opinion.

If appropriately managed teams can't break even, let alone make a profit, maybe they need to be in some other business.

If appropriately managed teams can't break even, let alone make a profit, maybe they need to be in some other business.

It's easy to make a statement like that when you don't care about sports. If you found them enjoyable, you might feel differently. Seattle supposedly cares so little about the Sonics that they're fine with the team leaving rather than build them an arena. However, if you suddenly yanked the Sonics, Mariners and Seahawks out of Seattle, I guarantee massive howls of protest. Tell people in New York that you're moving the Yankees, Mets, Jets, Giants, Knicks, Rangers, etc, and those responsible would probably be shot. From time immemorial, people have enjoyed sports. Especially in places like Oklahoma, where you don't have mountains or oceans for leisure time activities, people enjoy created activities, many of which are active or spectator sports. Having no sports would negatively affect quality of life for a lot of people.

My husband has never been a basketball fan, nor is he very interested in spectator sports. When I found out the Hornets were coming here, I told him I wanted season tickets for my birthday, Christmas, anniversary, Valentines, whatever presents, and he told me he might go to a game or two. I got two tickets anyway, and before a month was over, he was going to every game. This winter, when he could no longer go sailing or ride his bike in the evenings, he got pretty grumpy. His comment was "I hate television, and I can't find a good book to read. What have we done in the evenings in years past?" i reminded him that the two winters before we'd had Hornets games several times a week, and he commented, "I didn't mind not having an NBA team before the Hornets came, but now I realize how much fun the team was, and what a great thing it is to have something different to do in the winter, especially in the evenings when it's too dark to do much outside."

No one is saying having a team here is going to vault us up to compete with New York City. But, for those of us who have always liked sports, and for a surprising number of people who thought they didn't like basketball, having the Hornets here was a great source of enjoyment and pride. I'm happy to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again, and I think having a team here would be good for my city.

I'm happy to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again, and I think having a team here would be good for my city.

You'd be happy for everyone else to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again for you.

You'd be happy for everyone else to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again for you.

I watch sports about as much as I watch fleas copulating, and I'll probably never go to a game unless somebody gives me a ticket and I'm REALLY bored. Basketball is well below badminton and the AARP's annual Shuffleboard Championships on my list of things to watch on TV. I really, REALLY don't like basketball. But I'll vote yes and pay the money because I want to see this city step up. If it's basketball that provides the catalyst to get people interested in, involved in, and taking pride in their own city (not that they aren't now, but you can't tell me that downtown wasn't a hoppin' fun place to be on game nights with the Hornets and had people talking about the city like they were proud of it for once)...I'll help pay for it. I really don't see a downside in bringing a team here....A few pennies for a couple of years to bring that kind of civic pride and recognition is a small price to pay in my opinion.

All I'm saying is, just because "lots of other cities" finance their teams with a tax on everyone, doesn't mean we have to.

I am someone who would actually go to an NBA game. I went to a few Hornets games. I had a great time. I hope, hope, hope that the Sonics (or whoever) are able to call OKC home.

I understand the Ford Center is a city-owned building and that NBA upgrades are needed. I am just so against wealthy businessmen passing the buck onto us. If they really are the philanthropists we think they are and have such civic pride because OKC is "major league" now, then why don't they provide the financing.

And as I said earlier, why don't we ask the biggest beneficiaries of an NBA move to chip in? MidFirst, Chesapeake, Devon, BOk, OGE, Mathis Bros., The Oklahoman, Hilton Skirvin, Renaissance, Marriott, Bricktown Restaurant Owners...

Even if we DO get an NBA team, everybody who paid the taxes to get the upgrades will still have to buy a ticket to get in!

And the comments here that imply the NBA is not a profitable business, and that owners are supporting NBA out of sheer love for the game is nostalgic, but ridiculous. If the NBA isn't a profitable, then that's even one more reason that public money shouldn't be thrown at an upgrade expressly for the NBA.

Open Letter to Mayor Cornett:
I am Voting NO on March 4, and I'm sadden to know the Council is lending the way to bleed us dry for these few.
I'm not to surprised by your actions.
I remember when you decided to run for a higher office and got your backside kicked.
I also remember the exit polls, when the voters were asked why they voted that way.
Do you?
"Because he {You} haven't done anything for the City."
You wanted a light railed system, which once again is not good stewardship, and was turned down by public opinion.
We both know the MAPS is not your vision, your claim to fame.
You decided to survey the City, and now that you didn't like the results, you changed the order in which to do things in this effort to be remembered for your next "higher office drive."
The bringing a NBA and delivery a FORD CENTER VOTE YES victory is your ***** pump for the next higher office election,and your efforts to be the "big man".
I also believe the City Diet is a diversionary tactic.
Essentially I just don't trust you.

That was pure class gmwise, pure class. I like the way you threw in ***** pump. Sometime that is a hard phrase to work into a conversation, but I gotta say, you pulled it off. One other thing, you got the tense wrong on your "lending the way to bleed us dry" phrase. Since the tax has been in place since 1993 you should have bled dry a long time ago. Thus, try using " led the way to bleed us dry".

I believe his honor and others know the meaning of the letter.

All I'm saying is, just because "lots of other cities" finance their teams with a tax on everyone, doesn't mean we have to.

I am someone who would actually go to an NBA game. I went to a few Hornets games. I had a great time. I hope, hope, hope that the Sonics (or whoever) are able to call OKC home.

I understand the Ford Center is a city-owned building and that NBA upgrades are needed. I am just so against wealthy businessmen passing the buck onto us. If they really are the philanthropists we think they are and have such civic pride because OKC is "major league" now, then why don't they provide the financing.

And as I said earlier, why don't we ask the biggest beneficiaries of an NBA move to chip in? MidFirst, Chesapeake, Devon, BOk, OGE, Mathis Bros., The Oklahoman, Hilton Skirvin, Renaissance, Marriott, Bricktown Restaurant Owners...

Even if we DO get an NBA team, everybody who paid the taxes to get the upgrades will still have to buy a ticket to get in!

And the comments here that imply the NBA is not a profitable business, and that owners are supporting NBA out of sheer love for the game is nostalgic, but ridiculous. If the NBA isn't a profitable, then that's even one more reason that public money shouldn't be thrown at an upgrade expressly for the NBA.

As I've told everyone who is planning on voting "no" for rational reasons. I understand your point, but you have to realize you are voting "no NBA". If you are fine with that, then by all means vote "no". I have yet to see one piece of data that makes me think that Oklahoma City will get a team if we don't pass this tax proposal. No matter who should or shouldn't pay for it, this is the piece of legislation the NBA Board of Governors will see in April. If we don't pass it, then they will not vote in favor of moving the Sonics. That I believe, and have never been given reason to doubt.

I also happen to believe that even wealthy people might have their limits where philanthropy is concerned, and had I spent $400 million on a team and the citizens of the city I was hoping to move the team to were arguing about whether they should spend a few pennies a day on an arena they own would strike me as a bad place to bring a team. Yesterday I donated 11 cents to MAPS for Kids. I was happy to do it. And I've already vowed I will not shop outside of Oklahoma City for the 15 months the tax for the Ford Center is in place, because I believe in it too.

If the board of governors knew that there was an active plan b in the works fully funding the upgrades through private funds, why would they throw OKC out the door? We were VERY successful with the hornets.

If I were the owner of the team I'd go for Las Vegas or Kansas City. I am kind of dubious about Oklahoma City really supporting the Sonics long term. I have been surprised by the rather stringent opposition to the question.

If I could vote, and I can't, on the proposition though I would vote yes. I really don't see any downside for the City of Oklahoma City, the residents, or the shoppers. I don't see any downside even if an NBA team doesn't come.

I am pretty surprised by the jealousy and anger towards the owners by so many who live here.

If the board of governors knew that there was an active plan b in the works fully funding the upgrades through private funds, why would they throw OKC out the door? We were VERY successful with the hornets.
Luke, you didn't respond to my questions ... not that you had to! But, out of curiosity,

1) Would or did you vote for the public financing of the original Bricktown Ballpark and what became the Ford Center?

2) Would or did you vote for the public financing of the arena in the 6 month extension of the tax when funds came up short to do the arena?

3) Were the NBA not involved in the present mix, and we had no expectation of getting an NBA team at all, would you be for or against the March 4 tax if the Practice Facility were not included in what would be financed?

If the board of governors knew that there was an active plan b in the works fully funding the upgrades through private funds, why would they throw OKC out the door? We were VERY successful with the hornets.

But there's not. Who's funding plan b? You might hope somebody out there would be willing to give that money away, but if the private citizens aren't willing to give up a few pennies a day, would you give away millions?

We were moderately successful with the Hornets. We did not sell out the arena every night like Detroit does. We were ranked about tenth for attendance the first year (I'm too lazy to check it carefully), and lower the second, with a much lower gate the second year. We did a very nice job for two years with the Hornets. But not amazingly well. Very successful would have been every night sellouts.

So the Board of Governors will have to choose between leaving the Sonics in a city that has supported it for 40 years, that has the 12th largest television market and a population three times that of Oklahoma City but won't build a new arena for $450 million and moving the team to Oklahoma City, a city that supported a team fairly well for two years, has the 45th largest television market and a population one third the size of Seattle and that won't renovate an $89 million dollar arena. Which would you choose?

Guys some people just don't get it. You can rationalize it all you want but if this vote does not pass there will be NO NBA in this city. Period. The NBA is not going to vote yes to relocate a team here days fter we vote down to renovate the Ford Center. It just isn't going to happen. The last two relocations have gone bad.

The NBA is not sure about OKC. The NBA makes a lot of money of TV. You aren't going to make a lot of money off TV in the second or third smallest market in the league. They want to see if the OKC can support this thing long term. If we vote this down it sends a clear message.

I will never use the Civic Center. It is not my kind of thing but it adds to the diversity of this city so i'm all for it.

The same people who are against this were against Maps and will be against Maps III. They can't tell you what they are for but they can tell you what they are against.

All I'm saying is, just because "lots of other cities" finance their teams with a tax on everyone, doesn't mean we have to.

Yes it does. We are not in a position to be in that minority. We are a potential new NBA city, and would be in the bottom 2 or 3 in market size. All the instances mentioned in the article you quoted were NEW FACILITIES for ESTABLISHED TEAMS.

The Ford Center is already owned by the city. If Dillards looks at Crossroads Mall and says hey, this place needs some improvements, and everyone seems to agree, does Dillards pay for the whole mall's renovations because they are the biggest tenant. NO, of course not.

OKC has to show that it will support the NBA, or they won't let a team come here. The improvement will help the city in intangible ways, as well as make the Ford Center a better place for fans of the NBA, the Rolling Stones, the Blazers, the Yard Dawgs, Billy Graham, and anything else that happens there.

Open Letter to Mayor Cornett:
You wanted a light railed system, which once again is not good stewardship, and was turned down by public opinion.

You decided to survey the City, and now that you didn't like the results, you changed the order in which to do things in this effort to be remembered for your next "higher office drive."

Ummm, pretty sure light rail was at the top of the list of what people wanted, buddy. He didn't change any order. He had to rush the Ford Center improvements because of the upcoming BOG vote. Simple as that.

You are right, but many of those people, including Green, have proven that their interests lie elsewhere. What we really have here is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. If we don't take it now, it may never happen again. Just because others can afford it doesn't mean they will step up in this manner and be willing to take the same risk, as well as the public scrutiny.

There's no pro basketball fairly floating about saying "Oh, let's put a team in OKC, and even if the people vote down the tax initiative, we'll put it there anyway." Nope. This is our once-and-only shot. Our Hail Mary from Half Court!!! There's a saying that luck happens when preparedness meets opportunity. Our opportunity is here. We just need to prepare.

FritterGirl, you must not have read my posts! I am highly in favor of passing this tax extension! I totally see the big picture and the value, I was just correcting someone else in stating that the Pro Basketball Club are the 8 wealthiest people in OKC, when clearly some of them are not, however I still understood what that guy was trying to say. That was my point.

Open Letter to Mayor Cornett:
I am Voting NO on March 4, and I'm sadden to know the Council is lending the way to bleed us dry for these few.
I'm not to surprised by your actions.
I remember when you decided to run for a higher office and got your backside kicked.
I also remember the exit polls, when the voters were asked why they voted that way.
Do you?
"Because he {You} haven't done anything for the City."
You wanted a light railed system, which once again is not good stewardship, and was turned down by public opinion.
We both know the MAPS is not your vision, your claim to fame.
You decided to survey the City, and now that you didn't like the results, you changed the order in which to do things in this effort to be remembered for your next "higher office drive."
The bringing a NBA and delivery a FORD CENTER VOTE YES victory is your ***** pump for the next higher office election,and your efforts to be the "big man".
I also believe the City Diet is a diversionary tactic.
Essentially I just don't trust you.

You may want to do a grammar and spelling check before you send this to the Mayor.

I hope you already sent it.

Luke, you didn't respond to my questions ... not that you had to! But, out of curiosity,

1) Would or did you vote for the public financing of the original Bricktown Ballpark and what became the Ford Center?

2) Would or did you vote for the public financing of the arena in the 6 month extension of the tax when funds came up short to do the arena?

3) Were the NBA not involved in the present mix, and we had no expectation of getting an NBA team at all, would you be for or against the March 4 tax if the Practice Facility were not included in what would be financed?

I planned to respond. :)

1) I didn't vote. I think this was when the original MAPS was passed, right? And that was in 1995, right? I didn't live in OKC and I was only 15.

2) I'm not even sure when that was, so no I didn't vote then either.

3) I would vote no.

To me it's totally a principle. I am a HUGE fan of OKC. I want the absolute best. I want the Olympics here in 2024, a NFL team an NBA team, an MLS team. I want it all!

The role of the government, however, is where I disagree with some of you. I don't believe it is the role of the local government to subsidize business ventures despite the payoff it would reap for the City. I believe if the private sector believes OKC is a strong enough market for X, Y, or Z, then they should be willing to front the capital to do it.

Just my two cents ... but I think people should vote, YES...the reasons to do so are way more compelling than the reasons not to as outlined by Doug and others.
Cheers. :-)



www.unitedstatesofmichael.com

To me it's totally a principle. I am a HUGE fan of OKC. I want the absolute best. I want the Olympics here in 2024, a NFL team an NBA team, an MLS team. I want it all!

The role of the government, however, is where I disagree with some of you. I don't believe it is the role of the local government to subsidize business ventures despite the payoff it would reap for the City. I believe if the private sector believes OKC is a strong enough market for X, Y, or Z, then they should be willing to front the capital to do it.

You'll be waiting a long time for any of the above teams if that's the way you feel. If we were New York City, it might be different. But, no one is dying to put a team here. We've got to attract one, and there's not a team in the world that feels attracted to a city that expects the team to do all the contributing, unless they're looking at a top ten tv market, a population of 10 million, or a truly unique geographical location. We have none of those.

Personally, I don't want to wait forever. And having the Hornets here gave me a taste of what it could be like in Oklahoma City if we had a professional team. I'll give about 50 cents to MAPS for Kids today (taking the fam out to dinner and buying a few groceries), and I'm happy to do it. I'd be equally happy to give it to the city to improve our arena and hopefully bring an NBA team here.

But, no one is dying to put a team here.

Then maybe that's a hint.


We've got to attract one, and there's not a team in the world that feels attracted to a city that expects the team to do all the contributing...

Well, then why don't we all pay a tax to get Dave and Busters, a Rainforest Cafe, a Barnes & Noble and whatever else a majority of people who care to vote for want?

Where is the line drawn?

In a free market, an NBA team would WANT to come here because the demand is there.



Personally, I don't want to wait forever. And having the Hornets here gave me a taste of what it could be like in Oklahoma City if we had a professional team.

Agreed.

Well, then why don't we all pay a tax to get Dave and Busters, a Rainforest Cafe, a Barnes & Noble and whatever else a majority of people who care to vote for want?

Sometimes cities do. Hey, we are on the same page when it comes to taxes. I hate paying them as much as anyone (although I do prefer sales taxes to income taxes). However, there are certain functions that each level of government plays in the big picture. For local government that role hinges around things like public safety, local transit, and something we call quality of life. I think funding an arena falls into the quality of life category and at what I consider to be a reasonable price. Now granted I probably won't have to pay any of these taxes since I don't live in OKC so take my opinion for what it is worth.

In a free market, an NBA team would WANT to come here because the demand is there.

It is a free market.

Other cities are offering huge incentives to teams. Practice facilities and serviceable arenas are in most NBA city-team contracts these days.

In a free market, teams will gravitate towards whoever is offering the best profit -- in this case, the cities paying the subsidies will win. The March 4th vote will determine we want to be part of the NBA or whether the team will go to another city which offers substantially similar (or better) benefits than what we're voting for on March 4.

It is a free market.

Other cities are offering huge incentives to teams. Practice facilities and serviceable arenas are in most NBA city-team contracts these days.

In a free market, teams will gravitate towards whoever is offering the best profit -- in this case, the cities paying the subsidies will win.

I agree with that completely.

Obviously, if I'm the business owners and the city is wanting to pay for things for my team, I'm not going to stop them!

I just think it's a wrong headed approach on the city's side to subsidize arena upgrades at the expense of those who will still have to pay to get in.

At least libraries and public schools are free.

How about the Bricktown restaurants, downtown bars, downtown hotels and businesses who would reap the benefits of an NBA team pony up the dough?

I just think it's a wrong headed approach on the city's side to subsidize arena upgrades at the expense of those who will still have to pay to get in.

I can't speak for the Ford Center because I have never been there, but at Tropicana Field in St Pete, St Pete Times Forum in Tampa, and All-Tel Stadium in Jax you can go to the arena to eat at the sports bars any time the building is open, except for game days of course. However, if you want to see the team play then yes you have to buy a ticket. The team has exclusive use of the venue on game day.

Can you eat at the York Icehouse on non-game days without having to pay to enter the building?

I hope you already sent it.That was an un-necessary personal attack if I have ever seen one.

Apples and oranges. Nice try though.

I wonder if anyone brought this up yet. Why does OKC have to foot the tax bill so all of those rich snobs from Edmond can watch the NBA?? Just kidding... :)

Apples and oranges. Nice try though.Says you

I agree with that completely.

Obviously, if I'm the business owners and the city is wanting to pay for things for my team, I'm not going to stop them!

I just think it's a wrong headed approach on the city's side to subsidize arena upgrades at the expense of those who will still have to pay to get in.

At least libraries and public schools are free.

How about the Bricktown restaurants, downtown bars, downtown hotels and businesses who would reap the benefits of an NBA team pony up the dough?

Again, no one is saying you can't feel this way. What I object to is people seeming to think that it's wrong for us as citizens to subsidize arena upgrades, but the owners should move the team here anyway and lose money. Is that any more fair.? Just say you don't want to subsidize the NBA and be done with it. And accept the fact that if this vote doesn't pass there will be no professional basketball in Oklahoma City. We can always drive to Tulsa to watch NBDL games and hopefully see a future star once in awhile.

Again, no one is saying you can't feel this way. What I object to is people seeming to think that it's wrong for us as citizens to subsidize arena upgrades, but the owners should move the team here anyway and lose money. Is that any more fair.? Just say you don't want to subsidize the NBA and be done with it. And accept the fact that if this vote doesn't pass there will be no professional basketball in Oklahoma City. We can always drive to Tulsa to watch NBDL games and hopefully see a future star once in awhile.Not everyone, as you seem to think, correct me if I'm wrong, who is against this deal thinks it's wrong for us to upgrade the F.C.

Not everyone, as you seem to think, correct me if I'm wrong, who is against this deal thinks it's wrong for us to upgrade the F.C.

I didn't say that either. I'm saying that people who want to vote "no" need to accept and understand that means "no NBA". There is no good reason for the NBA to move a team here if we don't pass this tax proposal, and it will not happen, unless there's secret city money the city council will pull out of a hat if it fails to pass. Maybe there is secret money. But that's the only way it will happen, and that will be the public's money as well.

I realize there are people who are in favor of upgrading the Ford Center and not building the practice facility, but I don't believe that option is going to be on the ballot. So, at least for now, a "no" vote means no Ford Center upgrades either. Perhaps the city would stick some upgrades in a MAPS3 proposal, but it will be too late for the NBA.

Everyone is free to vote however their conscience moves them, and I'm not saying otherwise. I just want people to realize what their vote means, and not have some pie-in-the-sky "rich philanthropist will bail us out" or "the NBA loves us so much they'll put a team here anyway" false hopes if they're voting no. Just be realistic about what you are voting for or against and what your vote means.

I agree with that completely.

Obviously, if I'm the business owners and the city is wanting to pay for things for my team, I'm not going to stop them!

I just think it's a wrong headed approach on the city's side to subsidize arena upgrades at the expense of those who will still have to pay to get in.

At least libraries and public schools are free.

How about the Bricktown restaurants, downtown bars, downtown hotels and businesses who would reap the benefits of an NBA team pony up the dough?

That would hold true if you had to pay to get into these games. Last I heard, the NBA was televised. Wouldn't it be nice to sit back, pop open a cream soda (you don't drink, do you?) and watch the OKC Sonics whoop up on Dallas, Houston, etc.?

While you may not be personally enjoying the roof gardens at the Ford Center, you will have every opportunity to enjoy the product that the team puts on the court. The best part? You won't have to pay a dime more than you're already paying in taxes to pull this off.

Clay Bennett, et. al. have shown that they really, really support Oklahoma City. They've put a substantial part of their net worths on the line. I think it's right for the city to pass this thing. This is an "atta boy" to Clay and company.

Their confidence in their hometown should be and will be rewarded. As far as Bricktown, etc., don't think for a second that they won't be coughing up some pretty significant money in the near future -- in the form of property taxes. When OKC starts to see some real tourist traffic, those businesses will flourish. In turn, property prices, which are all astronomical will skyrocket -- and the schools will be the winners there.

I'm generally part of the tinfoil hat brigade when it comes to these things. It's just that this time, I can see how this sort of public investment will really push OKC to the next level. I'm ready to see this happen. I hope my fellow citizens feel the same way on March 4th.

Some of us won't be able to vote at all since we are still having issues getting an Oklahoma ID/license and therefore can't register to vote here. Once again, I would like to really, really thank HB 1804. THANKS A LOT. So if this doesn't pass by one vote and we don't get the NBA you can officially blame HB 1804.

Some of us won't be able to vote at all since we are still having issues getting an Oklahoma ID/license and therefore can't register to vote here. Once again, I would like to really, really thank HB 1804. THANKS A LOT. So if this doesn't pass by one vote and we don't get the NBA you can officially blame HB 1804.

Misty, According to the Oklahoma County Election Board site, you can use the last 4 digits of your SS#, if you do not have state ID or DL, and swear you are a resident by your signature.
VOTER REGISTRATION IN OKLAHOMA (http://www.state.ok.us/~elections/voterreg.html)

ah, just go to the polling place and say your name is Smith or something else. Most people don't even end up voting, and unfortunately in this state, they rarely if ever I.D. you when you vote. Might as well make someones vote count!

I didn't say that either. I'm saying that people who want to vote "no" need to accept and understand that means "no NBA". There is no good reason for the NBA to move a team here if we don't pass this tax proposal, and it will not happen, unless there's secret city money the city council will pull out of a hat if it fails to pass. Maybe there is secret money. But that's the only way it will happen, and that will be the public's money as well.

I realize there are people who are in favor of upgrading the Ford Center and not building the practice facility, but I don't believe that option is going to be on the ballot. So, at least for now, a "no" vote means no Ford Center upgrades either. Perhaps the city would stick some upgrades in a MAPS3 proposal, but it will be too late for the NBA.

Everyone is free to vote however their conscience moves them, and I'm not saying otherwise. I just want people to realize what their vote means, and not have some pie-in-the-sky "rich philanthropist will bail us out" or "the NBA loves us so much they'll put a team here anyway" false hopes if they're voting no. Just be realistic about what you are voting for or against and what your vote means.OK fair enough. You didn't say that. You are right, some of us are very much in favor of upgrading the F.C., NBA or no NBA. You are correct again about those of us who are not in favor of paying for a practice facility. But that does not mean I don't want the NBA. And your correct, voting against the P.F. will not be on the ballot. But it should have been. Thats where our Mayor, in my opinion, lacked guts. That way some of us could have voted yes for the F.C. and no for the P.F., and some of you could have voted yes for both. I'm sure you will disagree

What I object to is people seeming to think that it's wrong for us as citizens to subsidize arena upgrades, but the owners should move the team here anyway and lose money. Is that any more fair.?

Why do you say they'll lose money?


And accept the fact that if this vote doesn't pass there will be no professional basketball in Oklahoma City.

Well, I disagree. If Bennett, et al, really want the Sonics in OKC for altruistic reasons (because reading this thread you'd think they were doing us a favor and are prepared to lose tons of money because the NBA isn't profitable), then where there is a will (and large pocketbooks) there is a way.

Not everyone, as you seem to think, correct me if I'm wrong, who is against this deal thinks it's wrong for us to upgrade the F.C.

Exactly. I'm all for the Ford Center to be NBA ready so we can have an NBA team! I just think Bennett and company should pay for it. Or maybe an assemblage of Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels and businesses could chip in.

Exactly. I'm all for the Ford Center to be NBA ready so we can have an NBA team! I just think Bennett and company should pay for it. Or maybe an assemblage of Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels and businesses could chip in.

Since the NBA isn't allowing Bennett and company to pay for the Ford Center updates, why don't you go talk to all of the owners of the Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels, and see if you can raise the money by April? I'm solidly behind you trying, but I think I'll probably vote "yes" March 4th, just in case.

OK fair enough. You didn't say that. You are right, some of us are very much in favor of upgrading the F.C., NBA or no NBA. You are correct again about those of us who are not in favor of paying for a practice facility. But that does not mean I don't want the NBA. And your correct, voting against the P.F. will not be on the ballot. But it should have been. Thats where our Mayor, in my opinion, lacked guts. That way some of us could have voted yes for the F.C. and no for the P.F., and some of you could have voted yes for both. I'm sure you will disagree

I'd be fine with people voting yes for the upgrades and no for the practice facility. I'm fine with people voting "no", if that's what they want to do. It's the inability or unwillingness to recognize the end result of that "no" vote I have a problem with. I don't know if the failure to separate the two options was because the mayor lacked guts or not. I would have liked to have been at, but was not privy to, any conversations between David Stern and Mayor Cornett, so I have no idea if Stern said the practice facility had to be part of the deal or not. I just know that there are many times when a candidate or a tax proposal is not precisely what I would like. In the end, I have to decide if it's better to vote for a candidate or a proposal that is not precisely what I want, or against. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves. I've seen many other cities build practice facilities, and so I understand that that seems to be part of the package deal. New Orleans had to agree to build a practice facility to get the Hornets, so we're not being treated differently or being asked to do more. New Orleans also upgraded their arena before they got the Hornets. I see the practice facility the way I see incentives for businesses. It may not benefit me directly, but having the team or the business benefits me because it benefits my community. So, I'm fine with it. That's just my opinion.

I hope you already sent it.
Ditto.

You'd be happy for everyone else to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again for you.

I just went to my first Redhawks game last summer. But I was happy to pay for the Bricktown Ballpark, because I thought it would be a great addition to downtown. I was happy to pay for renovations to the Civic Center for the same reason. I've never been in the downtown public library, but I was happy to pay for it. I am not a regular visitor at any of the city parks, but I was resoundingly in favor of the bond issue for the new downtown park. I've been to the Myriad Gardens once, but I'm happy to support it. I have no children in Oklahoma City public schools, nor have I ever had children in the Oklahoma City public schools, but I have paid property taxes without complaint for the last 20 years. To me, and I realize not everyone feels the same way, things that improve quality of life for citizens who reside in Oklahoma City are worth funding, even if I will never use them. I consider myself part of a community, which I consider a type of organism, and what's good for some part of the organism at least indirectly benefit other parts. I also see having an NBA team as being more than having 40+ games a year to go to. I see it as benefitting my community, for reasons I know you disagree with. But, in my opinion, having a team is good for my community, even if I never go to a game. So, I'm supporting it for the same reason I supported MAPS and MAPS for Kids, which to me is valid. I see the team, and an improved Ford Center as a boon for our city.

Why do you say they'll lose money? 30% of all NBA teams lost money last year, and the teams most likely to lose money are the small market teams, especially if they don't make the playoffs. Please see post # 121 in this thread for quotes.


Well, I disagree. If Bennett, et al, really want the Sonics in OKC for altruistic reasons (because reading this thread you'd think they were doing us a favor and are prepared to lose tons of money because the NBA isn't profitable), then where there is a will (and large pocketbooks) there is a way.

Clearly you disagree. The question is, where is the data to support your opinion? Gut feelings and hope and five dollars will get you on the subway. If we had a subway. I guess aphorisms I learned from my husband, who's from NYC, don't work very well in Oklahoma City.

Clay Bennett, et. al. have shown that they really, really support Oklahoma City. They've put a substantial part of their net worths on the line. I think it's right for the city to pass this thing. This is an "atta boy" to Clay and company.

Their confidence in their hometown should be and will be rewarded.
Midtowner, while I agreed with ALL of your message, the above part is so rarely stated that I wanted to give it singular attention. I completely agree.

Since the NBA isn't allowing Bennett and company to pay for the Ford Center updates, why don't you go talk to all of the owners of the Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels, and see if you can raise the money by April? I'm solidly behind you trying, but I think I'll probably vote "yes" March 4th, just in case.I've asked this question before, but it seems no one wants to answere it. Maybe you can. You claim the NBA isn't, or won't allow(ing) Bennett and Co. to pay for the F.C. updates ( or the cost of the P.F., which for some reason is never mentioned by the supporters of this issue). Why then did they allow him to shell out 100 Million of his own money to help pay for a new arena in Renton Washington?

I've asked this question before, but it seems no one wants to answere it. Maybe you can. You claim the NBA isn't, or won't allow(ing) Bennett and Co. to pay for the F.C. updates ( or the cost of the P.F., which for some reason is never mentioned by the supporters of this issue). Why then did they allow him to shell out 100 Million of his own money to help pay for a new arena in Renton Washington?

I suspect, but am guessing, that it's because the arena in Seattle was projected to cost $450 million, whereas the Ford center upgrades are estimated to cost $100 million. Also, Seattle has a team in place, and is a far larger city with a far larger television market, and I believe there's more leniency in funding in established NBA cities. As I said above, New Orleans had to upgrade their arena and agree to build a practice facility before they got the Hornets.

That would hold true if you had to pay to get into these games. Last I heard, the NBA was televised. Wouldn't it be nice to sit back, pop open a cream soda (you don't drink, do you?) and watch the OKC Sonics whoop up on Dallas, Houston, etc.?

While you may not be personally enjoying the roof gardens at the Ford Center, you will have every opportunity to enjoy the product that the team puts on the court. The best part? You won't have to pay a dime more than you're already paying in taxes to pull this off.

Clay Bennett, et. al. have shown that they really, really support Oklahoma City. They've put a substantial part of their net worths on the line. I think it's right for the city to pass this thing. This is an "atta boy" to Clay and company.

Their confidence in their hometown should be and will be rewarded. As far as Bricktown, etc., don't think for a second that they won't be coughing up some pretty significant money in the near future -- in the form of property taxes. When OKC starts to see some real tourist traffic, those businesses will flourish. In turn, property prices, which are all astronomical will skyrocket -- and the schools will be the winners there.

I'm generally part of the tinfoil hat brigade when it comes to these things. It's just that this time, I can see how this sort of public investment will really push OKC to the next level. I'm ready to see this happen. I hope my fellow citizens feel the same way on March 4th.Let me say up front, I don't dislike Bennett and Co.. Yes they have been wonerful local and corporate citizens. Nevertheless. What if the citizens Sea. Wash. or the Washington Legislature would have built them their new arena, would they still be moving to OKC?

I think not. I think they would be staying put. Then at a later date and time, sold the team for a tidy profit. Why, if in fact it's always been their motive and civic pride agenda, to bring the NBA to OKC did they offer to stay in Seattle? Was that some sort of smoke screen? Did they know before hand for a fact their offer to stay was going to be rejected? Maybe you and/or others may know. In my opinion OKC was their fall back plan-B. Yes it is true they most likely can make more money in Sea. If their offer to stay would have been accepted they stood to make alot of money. Yes they may not make as much money here, thats why they demand that the citizens agree to become their partners with our tax dollars. Not for the reason of cutting their losses, but for the reason of maintaining their future profits

I planned to respond. :)

1) I didn't vote. I think this was when the original MAPS was passed, right? And that was in 1995, right? I didn't live in OKC and I was only 15.
2) I'm not even sure when that was, so no I didn't vote then either.
3) I would vote no.
To me it's totally a principle. I am a HUGE fan of OKC. I want the absolute best. I want the Olympics here in 2024, a NFL team an NBA team, an MLS team. I want it all!

The role of the government, however, is where I disagree with some of you. I don't believe it is the role of the local government to subsidize business ventures despite the payoff it would reap for the City. I believe if the private sector believes OKC is a strong enough market for X, Y, or Z, then they should be willing to front the capital to do it.
Thanks for your reply, Luke. The initial 5 year penny sales tax passed in 12/1993. Before it expired, it became evident that the amount of money generated would be insufficient to do the arena and perhaps a couple of others (or, at least, do them as planned ... memory lapse for the moment). The gutsy 6 month tax extension passed 12/1998. Without the leadership of Mayor Ron Norick, later Mayor Kirk Humphreys, and perhaps without the ghost of Neal Horton hanging around (he was Bricktown's grand visionary who died a pauper and did not live to see the result of the seeds he had planted), the Oklahoma City you are enjoying today would not exist.

Talk about the role of government all you want, but, without the role of government being played out vis a vis the model of Ron Norick, today in the hands of Mick Cornett, you'd not be enjoying the vibrancy this city enjoys today, not only of downtown and Bricktown and the river, but more importantly the enormous change of perception of what Oklahoma Citians thought about themselves. In the past 2+ decades, Oklahoma City has gone from a city apologizing for itself to a vibrant and growing city busting its buttons with pride.

I like that "role of government" and it want it to continue into the NEXT century! Principle is a good thing. Figuring out which "principles" to pursue is not easy. I know that this is easy for me to say, but, I'll say it anyway: "Trust me" when I say, but for the role of government that has existed since 1993, you would NOT likely be the huge fan that you are of Oklahoma City today, because the Oklahoma City you know today would not exist. I want my children and grandchildren to continue to reap the benefits of the "role of government" that emerged with Mayor Ron Norick. Mistakes will be made, they always are. But, pursuit of the vision of what this city can be will be the driving force, and the March 4 vote is part of that vision.

My question #3 was,


3) Were the NBA not involved in the present mix, and we had no expectation of getting an NBA team at all, would you be for or against the March 4 tax if the Practice Facility were not included in what would be financed?
to which you replied that you would vote no, even if the NBA was stripped from the mix and we were only talking about improving the existing arena, making it better for ourselves and our descendants, just ourselves. In other words, the arena upgrade would just be for "us" and not for any "corporate business interests."

I'm seriously saddened to hear your choice, because, at your age, you and your ideas represent what may lie ahead for this city after I'm dead but while my children and grandchildren survive. I want them to share in what has become and what this city will yet come to be.

If you are representative of your generation, a good chance exists that they will not likely enjoy the excitement that comes with the kind of rebirth and renewal that has been my profound pleasure to experience during the past two decades. I want them to be part of that on-going process and progress.

"Principle" is very important but figuring out what/which "principles" one wants to stand his/her ground on is not so simple. In 1998, then City Council member Frosty (edit: I first said, "Troy," a mistake ... "Peak" is correct) strongly opposed the 6 month tax extension which resulted in today's Ford Center, based on "principle." For me, I am glad that his version of "principle" did not carry the day because if it did you and I would not have a sports arena called the Ford Center and the March 4 vote would not even be being discussed today. Kinda like The Twilight Zone kind of stuff, isn't it?

I suspect, but am guessing, that it's because the arena in Seattle was projected to cost $450 million, whereas the Ford center upgrades are estimated to cost $100 million. Also, Seattle has a team in place, and is a far larger city with a far larger television market, and I believe there's more leniency in funding in established NBA cities. As I said above, New Orleans had to upgrade their arena and agree to build a practice facility before they got the Hornets.Why did the Hornets Move from Charlotte (sp)?

Thanks for your reply, Luke. The initial 5 year penny sales tax passed in 12/1993. Before it expired, it became evident that the amount of money generated would be insufficient to do the arena and perhaps a couple of others (or, at least, do them as planned ... memory lapse for the moment). The gutsy 6 month tax extension passed 12/1998. Without the leadership of Mayor Ron Norick, later Mayor Kirk Humphreys, and perhaps without the ghost of Neal Horton hanging around (he was Bricktown's grand visionary who died a pauper and did not live to see the result of the seeds he had planted), the Oklahoma City you are enjoying today would not exist.

Talk about the role of government all you want, but, without the role of government being played out vis a vis the model of Ron Norick, today in the hands of Mick Cornett, you'd not be enjoying the vibrancy this city enjoys today, not only of downtown and Bricktown, but more importantly the enormous change of perception of what Oklahoma Citians though about themselves. In the past 2+ decades, Oklahoma City has gone from a city apologizing for itself to a vibrant and growing city busting its buttons with pride.

I like that "role of government" and it want it to continue into the NEXT century! Principle is a good thing. Figuring out which "principles" to pursue is not easy. I know that this is easy for me to say, but, I'll say it anyway: "Trust me" when I say, but for the role of government that has existed since 1993, you would NOT likely be the huge fan that you are of Oklahoma City today, because the Oklahoma City you know today would not exist. I want my children and grandchildren to continue to reap the benefits of the "role of government" that emerged with Mayor Ron Norick. Mistakes will be made, they always are. But, pursuit of the vision of what this city can be will be the driving force, and the March 4 vote is part of that vision.

My question #3 was,


to which you replied that you would vote no, even if the NBA was stripped from the mix and we were only talking about improving the existing arena, making it better for ourselves and our descendants, just ourselves. In other words, the arena upgrade would just be for "us" and not for any "corporate business interests."

I'm seriously saddened to hear your choice, because, at your age, you and your ideas represent what may lie ahead for this city after I'm dead but while my children and grandchildren survive. I want them to share in what has become and what this city will yet come to be.

If you are representative of your generation, a good chance exists that they will not likely enjoy the excitement that comes with the kind of rebirth and renewal that has been my profound pleasure to experience during the past two decades. I want them to be part of that on-going process and progress.

"Principle" is very important but figuring out what/which "principles" one wants to stand his/her ground on is not so simple. In 1998, then City Council member Frosty Troy strongly opposed the 6 month tax extension which resulted in today's Ford Center, based on "principle." For me, I am glad that his version of "principle" did not carry the day because if it did you and I would not a a sports arena called the Ford Center and the March 4 vote would not even be being discussed today. Kinda like The Twilight Zone kind of stuff, isn't it? Accept this correction with my utmost respect. I wish I knew half as much about OKC and it's history as you do. But it was Peak not Troy.

Accept this correction with my utmost respect. I wish I knew half as much about OKC and it's history as you do. But it was Peak not Troy.
:bright_id Of course! Sorry about the mistake.

Talk about the role of government all you want, but, without the role of government being played out vis a vis the model of Ron Norick, today in the hands of Mick Cornett, you'd not be enjoying the vibrancy this city enjoys today, not only of downtown and Bricktown and the river, but more importantly the enormous change of perception of what Oklahoma Citians thought about themselves. In the past 2+ decades, Oklahoma City has gone from a city apologizing for itself to a vibrant and growing city busting its buttons with pride.

Credit is certainly due to the taxpayers who approved the amazing projects. Definitely a leap of faith. Thankfully some trustworthy true visionaries were some of the leaders at that time.


I like that "role of government" and it want it to continue into the NEXT century! Principle is a good thing. Figuring out which "principles" to pursue is not easy. I know that this is easy for me to say, but, I'll say it anyway: "Trust me" when I say, but for the role of government that has existed since 1993, you would NOT likely be the huge fan that you are of Oklahoma City today, because the Oklahoma City you know today would not exist. I want my children and grandchildren to continue to reap the benefits of the "role of government" that emerged with Mayor Ron Norick. Mistakes will be made, they always are. But, pursuit of the vision of what this city can be will be the driving force, and the March 4 vote is part of that vision.

I see your point. And I love the fact that visionaries were in place in order for the wonderful projects to take place. However, relying on government for these visionary ideas to take place isn't necessary.


I'm seriously saddened to hear your choice, because, at your age, you and your ideas represent what may lie ahead for this city after I'm dead but while my children and grandchildren survive. I want them to share in what has become and what this city will yet come to be.

Your assumption is that only the government can come up with good ideas for this city. Thankfully, VERY good ideas will come about from people who won't be given free tax money! Don't be sad! :) Fiscal prudence is something that may well keep this city alive even longer! Also, don't be disheartened! Visionaries are in every generation and there are plenty of visionaries who will not rely on government for dreams to come true.

By the way, growing up in Sulphur, we would come to OKC several times a month for fun. So even when I was very young I always had an adoration for OKC. Through my high school years I'd drive up to Blazers games with friends. I loved OKC before MAPS.

I've blocked the losers who is most certain that I'm wrong for whatever reason except a honest dialogue.
It seems if you disagreed with the majority you should be slighted.
I try to be considerate of others during this and other debates, but to be honest my live doesn't depend on this forum.
That doesn't excuse my own bad behavior, but I still do not trust Little Micky, anymore then the day before.
All grammatical mistakes there maybe,but the concern is still there.
So my passion is all there and bare and not hidden by pretended names and aliases.
I have only one user name, my debaters.. more then one person should have except to make light of honest concerns of taxpayers.
Sounds like they have much to fear of losing if they try things like that now does it.

Credit is certainly due to the taxpayers who approved the amazing projects. Definitely a leap of faith. Thankfully some trustworthy true visionaries were some of the leaders at that time.



I see your point. And I love the fact that visionaries were in place in order for the wonderful projects to take place. However, relying on government for these visionary ideas to take place isn't necessary.



Your assumption is that only the government can come up with good ideas for this city. Thankfully, VERY good ideas will come about from people who won't be given free tax money! Don't be sad! :) Fiscal prudence is something that may well keep this city alive even longer! Also, don't be disheartened! Visionaries are in every generation and there are plenty of visionaries who will not rely on government for dreams to come true.

By the way, growing up in Sulphur, we would come to OKC several times a month for fun. So even when I was very young I always had an adoration for OKC. Through my high school years I'd drive up to Blazers games with friends. I loved OKC before MAPS.


Would you please give some examples of the privately funded projects that have occurred in OKC to prove your point.

It's cool that you got to see the Blazers games in the publicly funded Myriad. You should get downtown more often, it's quite a bit nicer now.

Your assumption is that only the government can come up with good ideas for this city. Thankfully, VERY good ideas will come about from people who won't be given free tax money! Don't be sad! :) Fiscal prudence is something that may well keep this city alive even longer! Also, don't be disheartened! Visionaries are in every generation and there are plenty of visionaries who will not rely on government for dreams to come true.

By the way, growing up in Sulphur, we would come to OKC several times a month for fun. So even when I was very young I always had an adoration for OKC. Through my high school years I'd drive up to Blazers games with friends. I loved OKC before MAPS.

Yes, if you grew up in Sulphur, the old Oklahoma City might have looked wonderful. For those of us who moved here from bigger, more interesting cities, the old Oklahoma City was pretty grim.

I think you'll wait a very, very, very long, long time for someone other than the government to make professional team dreams to come true. I haven't seen too many privately funded parks, libraries, or art museums that could equal those the government has created.

It would have saved a lot of time and energy on the part of posters here if you'd just explained that you are anti-tax, regardless of what the tax is paying for. I recognize that anyone who is knee jerk anti-tax is never going to support something like an arena, no matter what their interests are.

Why did the Hornets Move from Charlotte (sp)?
Initially, the Hornets were the success story of the NBA. They had a huge arena (23-24,000, I think), and wildly enthusiastic fans. They had an incredibly long run of sell-outs, and incredibly high season ticket sales (maxed at 21,000), despite the fact that Charlotte was one of the smaller cities in the league. The team made it to the playoffs frequently, but didn't advance. There were some questionable trades and contracts that left the team in disarray. But, what killed the deal was when George Shinn was accused of rape by a former employee. He had the poor judgement to allow the trial to be shown on court tv. It also came out that he had had an affair with a Honeybee. Reportedly, the first Mrs. Shinn was a pillar of the Charlotte community, and although Shinn was acquitted of rape, the on and off court issues completely killed fan support for the team. Their fan support fell to the bottom of the league in rankings. Shinn requested a new arena, and his request obviously was not supported by the populace, since he was basically a pariah. He then requested a move. although the city of Charlotte requested Stern force him to sell the team. Stern reluctantly let him move the Hornets, most likely because of the poisonous relationship between him and almost the entire city of Charlotte, and one year later granted the city of Charlotte the Bobcats expansion franchise. Once Shinn was out of the picture, the city built the new arena.