But how can a place that is supposed to be a tourist destination go for a decade without a souvenir shop and now only have one?

I just don't think we have the foot traffic down there yet 24/7, 365. That might change with more residents downtown. Retail tends to follow rooftops. But currently, there's not enough foot traffic along the canal and in Bricktown during the off season to support a souvenir shop year-round.


How can a place that once was the heart of the wild west, that once was a downtown exactly like every old western I have ever seen, a downtown that had one of the greatest African American and Jazz districts in the nation on its doorsteps, a place that was founded by the Land Run pay homage to none of that?

I think we have the oil bust, when downtown basically dried up and almost blew away, to thank for that. Also, suburban sprawl really took over in the 80's.


Exactly what is there in Bricktown that is even capable of generating one of the fond memories I have of the other places I mentioned above?

Maybe the Land Run statue once it's finished will help. It has been billed as one of the largest collection of statues anywhere, and is supposed to be massive once completed.


It is either going to take a MAPS III or a handful of very rich and very creative investors to implement something like this, but I think that's about the only option we have to create the destination we all want.

MAPS III will help, but really getting more residents downtown will be key.
Also, getting things like the NBA, which help OKC become more of a tourism destination help!

And what would be your ultimate flagship of Bricktown, lower or upper?

I'd say the main attraction is the canal or ballpark.

Patrick, you're forgetting the chicken-and-egg dilemma. There are over 7-8 million visitors to Bricktown/Cox Convention Center each year. This is plenty of foot traffic to support much more retail/rooftops/attractions, etc. The problem is either:

1.) The area hasn't been promoted properly and to the best of its ability (very likely)

2.) Area developers have a lack of vision, finances or both ( I think most of us would agree on this). Many of them are key property holders that are willing to hold on for the big one when it may never come instead of leasing space for a lesser amount to people willing to take the gamble now.

I agree to say more rooftops and the NBA would help tremendously, no doubt, however to say there just isn't enough foot traffic in Bricktown is foolish. There is plenty just with baseball games, concerts, Ford Center attractions, and the convention business.

Bricktown proper is dead a lot of the time though, I always see more people at Centennial Plaza in LB rather than Upper Bricktown.

Metro, I'd add a #3. Property prices are so high in Bricktown that property owners feel compelled to charge astronomical rent -- something which really limits what sorts of businesses can be successful.

Businesses will only locate in Bricktown if location is central to their success. It's not vision or finances that are holding back retail -- it's just the cost of renting space.

True, Midtowner, but I said developers, not entrepreneurs or businesses. The developers (meaning the greedy ones that own the buildings), are the ones with lack of vision, thus holding out for exorbant rents that may never come. Local entrepreneurs would LOVE to open businesses left and right in Bricktown if rents were reasonable and at fair market value, but paying 2-5x current fair market value is where the developers have lack of vision or perhaps they have tunnel vision.

I think the problems really are as follows:

1. Retailers aren't using the right strategy in Bricktown. Truth is, during the winter months, the canal is pretty dead. They need to market heavily during the spring, summer, and fall months, and plan on making most of their money then, because the traffic does die down January-March.

2. Really, it's going to take some long time establishments to create a retail attraction. One store here and there just isn't a draw, unless it's a large store like Bass Pro. I think a block of multiple stores would be a bigger draw. Take Laughing Fish for instance....it was the only store down there next to Zios, so it just didn't draw like a block of shops would.

3. Intermixing restaurants with retail would help...that way people going to the restaurants will stop in the shops, and the shops can benefit from the foot traffic the restaurants provide.

4. As Midtowner said, rents are too high in Bricktown. You have to have a really steady flow of customers everyday just to pay your lease.

Very true metro. The owners of the buildings in Bricktown need to realize that their buildings are worth more with tenants than without. Unfortunately, for years now, some owners have just sat on their buildings. Heck, the canal level of the Oklahoma Hardware Building isn't even finished out. Holding out isn't making these property owners anything. I don't understand why they don't want to at least get something from a potential renter, instead of receiving nothing at all.

If I owned a building in Bricktown, I'd charge dirt cheap rent to fill it up with tenants....then slowly raise the price as those tenants became more established. Then, once the businesses in the building matured, my property would be worth much more.

So, really, it's probably the property owners that need to change their strategy.

Patrick, I totally like your idea of intermixing retail with the restaurants, that way people could shop when they're finished eating.

I also think the city could start off retail by allowing street vendors. It could establish a carnival type atmosphere which would create an impetus for larger vendors to possibly actually rent space.

We can't keep just letting people go into Brewer's buildings without supporting the little man and I really think the city should not only allow but encourage very small startups as cart vendors and street musicians. Make em get permits, sure; but make the permits affordable and fair and just limit the number available based on what the city can support.

Here in Seattle, we used to have street barista carts all over downtown and some of the inner city. Our homegrown Starbucks, Seattle's Best Coffee, and Tully's have long since sent the barista carts the way of the phonograph player but I think such concepts might work very well in downtown OKC - especially since they encourage people to VISIT BY FOOT!

On my last visit to OKC, I did see some 'snack dog carts' and that was pleasant but it was far too few, especially for that time of the year (you know, end of summer) and it was ONLY the snack dogs, no trinket sellers, no t-shirt hustlers, no real organized street musicians (just a few hustling and looking out for the cops), no Kettle Corn or Japanese or Chinese on-the-go or even ICE CREAM carts.

These are some very simple ideas that could encourage pedestrian traffic throughout downtown, that could create LIFE in the city, encourage people to walk and get out and explore the city, and HELP develop a critical mass (over time) which will begin to justify retailers setting shop in building leases.

We could have different types of permits 1) which targets the startup; whose business anticipated to bring in less than 50K or whatever, they have a straight fee and 2) which targets more established yet not able to afford a lease, they'd have a fee and/or the city might get a cut via taxes and perhaps even 3) which might target musical acts

I think this could be a good thing and with these street carts and performers in place, I can't imagine ANYBODY visiting OKC leaving with a negative image about the downtown or its livelihood and charm. Heck, this might even change people's minds into SEEING Oklahoma City's cosmopolitan side (they usually refuse to see it because of the massive suburbanization)!

I think this should be part of the downtown economy, believe me, over time it will translate into the vibrant city that we all are talking about AND LOOKING FOR!

I'm guessing that a lot of the buildings you are speaking of are unfit for tenants and the owners would rather pass the upgrade costs on to the next owner rather than have to fork over the cash to make them habitable today.

As for the building vultures, I think the city should develop by-laws ESPECIALLY FOR TOP TOURIST/ENTERTAINMENT/BUSINESS districts (LIKE BRICKTOWN) that developers can't just SIT on their property for the sake of holding out -

but that they must be DOING SOMETHING WITH IT (making renos, or getting/trying to get tenants, or actively marketing it for sale [not just a for sale sign in the window boys]).

I also think that the city should make some requirements to the TOP FLOORS of the buildings in bricktown (unless they can't be saved). The CITY needs to DEMAND MORE from property owners!!! Those floors need to be filled with Apartments (even lower income [progressive people who need a helping hand that is who will get kicked out for ANY violation]), condos/lofts, office space for lease or office condo, retail, even market storage: SOMETHING OTHER THAN BOARDED UP EMPTY!!!!

I think this new 12 Story development - cotton exchange is a perfect development and should be allowed to go to 180 feet as originally announced. It would NOT deter from the feel of Bricktown and certainly could be a Landmark building that would define the district - much like Chase Tower defines Oklahoma City since it is the tallest signature skyscraper.

Anyways, I hope this goes through - at least Cotton wont have a building with nothing upstairs and the same old mexican restaurants on canal level (not that there is anything too wrong with that, but there are MORE cuisine choices that aren't yet in OKC). Personally, I'd love to see OKC get a Brasillian Churrascaria on the canal (something ala Fogo de Chão (http://www.fogodechao.com/locations/BeloHorizonte.htm))*

this is not a knock against Cafe Do Brasil. I've been numerous times and we love it. But a Churrascaria do Rodizio is a lot different from a Brasillian cafe in presentation and usually food offerings, and a canal side churrascaria would complement the midtown brasillian cafe (both would be in the same sq mile). ;)

I visited San Antonio for the Big 12 Championship, and I thought the coolest part about the Riverwalk was the heighth of the surrounding buildings...it made me feel like I was in the "middle" of the action. Bricktown doesn't offer that, and the CE would be a step in that direction, and what a perfect location for that movement to begin.

Secondly, this is a little off topic, but the street vendor topic got me thinking. I think it would be awesome if we could somehow close off a block of a street in BT and dedicate it to strictly pedestrian traffic, and fill it with carts and street vendors and what not. I think pedestrian traffic (and minimal or no car traffic) is a defining characteristic of any major entertainment district, and its something bricktown simply doesn't have.

The problem is that people won't just show up and walk around for nothing.

We do have street vendors in the warmer months. This booth was accompanied by a snow cone stand.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2215354910_f9736fd824_o.jpg

Glad they left up the Christmas decorations! :rolleyes:

At the risk of sounding too cynical, this looks like the summation of all retail activity in Bricktown!

As to the earlier point, yes, it would indeed be a focal point to allow taller buildings in Bricktown. Height equates to greater density, greater density to more people, more people to the need for more retail, hotels, etc. It is not rocket science, just simple economics.

How about a 40 floor, brick facade condo/hotel tower? That would get some attention. Seriously, there could be a wonderful impetus created by some municipal flexibility regarding height limitations and, yes indeed, some clear rules for developers that need to take the greater good of OKC citizens into account more than their own pocketbook.

40 floors of brick would look pretty odd.

Oh, I don't know. There are some beautiful examples in New York, although I admit that anything more than about 20 stories would look better actually closer to downtown. I, for one, would like to see a lot more green in Bricktown as well . It would complement the canal more not to mention the higher buildings.

On another point about this development, I regret to see that the canal-front is being used for parking, albeit 3 floors up. I think it would be better for the urban atmosphere of the city, and perhaps even more economically tenable if at least the canal-side facade could be all condos or retail. Perhaps there could be a trade-off by building the garage higher (6 floors), but with no canal frontage. The Bricktown Canal is one of the truly unique features of OKC, and it would be a shame to "cheapen" it by putting a smelly parking garage in such a visible and prominent location.

the canal is a "unique" feature of OKC? As far as I understand, there are several other cities, that have this same "unique" feature, one city being the city we go the "unique" idea from.

I agree that it would seem more exciting NOT to have parking fronting the canal, even in a garage, but as long as it is done tastefully, I think it will look alright.

It's better than surface lots.

But, why can't they dig a big hole, and put all of the 3 levels of parking underground.

I'm not an engineer or contractor, but I'd imagine it's a cost issue.

Chicago's Marina City Towers on the river are famous for their parking garages, right?

It's not so bad. I'd like to see more developments with included parking garages. There are many examples of that across the country, especially residential and hotel developments.

Now, if this was just a parking garage on the canal that would be different, but it has condos on top of it...

Maybe I was just expecting too much. Hopefully they will disguise it cleverly enough that it will not look like a parking garage. In any case it IS better than surface parking.

What I meant before with the 'unique' comment is that it is unique for OKC. OK Ok, it is not the only canal around. I happen to live in a city FULL of canals. Nonetheless, this special place for OKC should be treated as such.

Perhaps I did not catch the earlier discussion, but I personally think this would be a fantastic location for a high-quality hotel, i.e. Doubletree. Lots of entertainment, location, etc. Condo's are not bad, but they will not bring nearly the foot-traffic that a hotel would, which would really be useful for the proposed retail.

I don't consider Doubletree a high quality hotel. And there's not enough parking there for a hotel.

What we really need is for the city to come in and build free parking garages, like they did in Old Town in Wichita. But, that's a whole other topic.

I can't imagine the city building any free parking garages that we would be proud of. There's plenty of parking now, so as long as the developers build parking into their projects that aren't a complete eyesore, we should be fine.

The parking garage at Mockingbird Station in Dallas is very well disguised.

So far, all the developers have done is surrounded their developments with surface parking, and built concrete spray painted parking garages. We can do better.

This seems to have dropped off everyone's radar screen, what with the news of the Devon tower and the Sonics. Anyone have any news about the Cotton Exchange?

This has dropped off my radar and several others frankly because Cotton has announced several projects and has never come through before. I'll believe it when I see dirt moving and cranes out there.

I'm not hopeful for this one.

Gary Cotton indicated to me two weeks ago this project is progressing.
-Steve

Thanks, Steve.

Did he indicate any time line?

Final plans and demolition still have not been approved or even submitted, correct?

I think a key here will be financing and I think we need to make sure full financing is in place before any demolition takes place. I really don't want to see any more clearings on the canal or, really, any place else in the city that isn't followed by immediate construction of a replacement development.

Here here!!

Any news?

Any news?

i really hope this happens it would be a complete facelift for bricktown!!!!!

If a taller building were build within the inner bricktown area, and away from the core of all our other sky scrapers, do you feel there might be a "fill-in" in order to close the gap between the two? Maybe some weird economic necessity to fill the void?

If a taller building were build within the inner bricktown area, and away from the core of all our other sky scrapers, do you feel there might be a "fill-in" in order to close the gap between the two? Maybe some weird economic necessity to fill the void?

Probably not, since this 12 story building would only be 2 more stories than the new 10 story bricktown hotel. 12 stories isn't exactly huge. I doubt this project even works out to be honest.

Probably not, since this 12 story building would only be 2 more stories than the new 10 story bricktown hotel. 12 stories isn't exactly huge. I doubt this project even works out to be honest.

As do I.

Any News?

any news? maybe devon inspires this project?

um, no

That doesn't bode well coming from Steve... :(

Looks like another Bricktown proposal bites the dust.