Didn't the old county courthouse burn down?

Doug Dawgz Blog: The Civic Center (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/01/civic-center.html)

I'm at Kitchen No. 324 and I see construction workers walking around on the top floor and the windows are open... A sign roped around at the top of the building reads: Under Construction Ready To Lease 405-640-6167

I'm at Kitchen No. 324 and I see construction workers walking around on the top floor and the windows are open... A sign roped around at the top of the building reads: Under Construction Ready To Lease 405-640-6167

OMG! Has hell finally reached 31 degrees?

Woohoo!

Thanks for the update, Will.

OMG! Has hell finally reached 31 degrees?

Lucifer has complained about frozen plumbing.

Credit to Judy Hatfield & Co. with sticking with this project.

Renovations are always very difficult and it will be great to see that building come back to life.


Now, if we could just get some huge murals on the AT&T building to the east and that hideous antenna array off the Pioneer Building, that entire section of downtown will have been reborn.

Now, if we could just get some huge murals on the AT&T building to the east and that hideous antenna array off the Pioneer Building, that entire section of downtown will have been reborn.

Telephone Building (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Telephone+Building)

I liked seeing this on their webpage: "On Proposed Street Car Route"

Surprised no one posted this already:

The Carnegie - Now Under Construction

July 9, 2013
by Steve Lackmeyer

It took a few more years than what was hoped for by Judy Hatfield, but construction on the old downtown library, and the conversion into apartments and retail, is finally underway.

Read the rest of Steve's blurb (not really a story) at:

The Carnegie - Now Under Construction | News OK (http://newsok.com/the-carnegie-now-under-construction/article/3860549)

Personally I liked the look of the Pre-2008 rendering. Still all for any new downtown housing that can be built, but this is extremely scaled down from what was planned.

I'm not surprised about the article because I was with Steve having lunch and we were talking about it.

http://www.carnegieokc.com/pdfs/carnegie-residential-layouts.pdf

The secure, covered parking for $80 / month will be a great amenity.

However, several of the units will not have any windows. Personally, I could not begin to deal with that.

The secure, covered parking for $80 / month will be a great amenity.

However, several of the units will not have any windows. Personally, I could not begin to deal with that.

Are they really not adding any windows? I can't imagine them having units without windows, with all the other options available, there is no way they would rent.

I can't imagine them having units without windows, with all the other options available, there is no way they would rent.

That's what I was thinking. That is going to be a major drawback for a lot of people, I think. I wouldn't want to live there with no windows.

No windows, and they're priced at the top end for downtown. Personally, I'd pass.

Correction: They do plan to add windows to the 3rd level on the north side, which means all the units would at least have one small window in the living area.

They will not be adding any windows to the west side.

See the article at the top of the page for more images.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/urban-development-buildings/4077d1373414165-carnegie-centre-carnegie4.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/urban-development-buildings/4079d1373414168-carnegie-centre-carnegie6.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/urban-development-buildings/4080d1373414169-carnegie-centre-carnegie7.jpg

The secure, covered parking for $80 / month will be a great amenity.

However, several of the units will not have any windows. Personally, I could not begin to deal with that.

I don't see that working at all.

The only way I see it working is if someone is a night shift worker and sleeps during the day so prefers fewer natural light options...

I wish the developer would just spend the extra money and go with the original plan. I LOVE what was planned pre-2008.

Keeps looking worse every time they make a change. Seriously, they think someone wants a loft with no windows?

So what will this project actually look like? I can only find renderings of the pre-2008 plans.

So what will this project actually look like? I can only find renderings of the pre-2008 plans.

From the outside, it will look exactly like it does now.

From the outside, it will look exactly like it does now.

oh...

For those of you who want to live in a ready-made nuclear fallout bunker with a few windows.

Go check out how many units are empty in these places at night. They turn lights on to make them look like they have tenents in units that doesn't have anyone in them.

Huh? First of all, not all of these are equal. The downtown ones have sold a lot better than north side..downtown is virtually 100% occupied.

Second of all..it's tenants.

I dont want to bash this project because it would be too easy/cliche and this could actually be kinda cool. We'll see.

At the very least, it will bring residents / retail / office to a building that has been closed for a decade.

The building could always be further renovated down the road.

It seems this was the only economically feasible way to get this place back open.

Spartan, so you enjoy not having any windows in a loft huh? When you think loft, i dont think bomb shelter is your first thought.

The building is hideous and now we're stuck with it again. The developer makes promise after promise, with nothing but air to show for it. Plans get erased more and more, and the project becomes more crap as we go.

I'd rather see them sell it and let someone else have a shot.

Pete - the only way you're going to renovate it like this later is to get rid of the tenants and then rip it out. The ROI on that one once this thing gets occupied is long-term. And long-term developers is something OKC lacks in. They all want quick profit turn-around without any sticking power at all....no commitment to the city.

Spartan, so you enjoy not having any windows in a loft huh? When you think loft, i dont think bomb shelter is your first thought.

The building is hideous and now we're stuck with it again. The developer makes promise after promise, with nothing but air to show for it. Plans get erased more and more, and the project becomes more crap as we go.

I'd rather see them sell it and let someone else have a shot.

Pete - the only way you're going to renovate it like this later is to get rid of the tenants and then rip it out. The ROI on that one once this thing gets occupied is long-term. And long-term developers is something OKC lacks in. They all want quick profit turn-around without any sticking power at all....no commitment to the city.

You're getting very caught up in rhetoric...

I love the windows in my loft.

Carnegie Centre (July 8 2013) - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157634592978525/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3793/9264532188_bc081cbf02_b.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3798/9261756039_9532d737b3_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/9264529936_86f8be23b3_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7454/9264529228_b50ba01799_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7382/9261753493_00ea975df6_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5347/9264521714_95427a239a_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/9264521276_9f88d51d1b_b.jpg

If you would have taken a shot of the back, you would have seen a chute from an upper-story window to a dumpster in the alley below. I had to dodge a dust cloud coming from stuff dropped in the dumpster earlier today when I zipped by. There is definitely demo going on inside.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3815/9265222685_36b36da882_h.jpg

Spartan, unless i'm totally missing something here...they aren't adding windows, leaving 3 out of the 4 side with basically no windows. And only the top floor will have any windows on those sides.

I'm actually starting to wonder if it would be better to just doze the thing out and start over. It's not as though the 3-story block of crappy facade is historic. It's not even a good example of architecture of it's time...just a crappy building from then. You find better examples of that era at the FFA campus at the airport.

I am not saying this is the best option available, but did Hatfield consider turning them into offices instead of apartments? An office without a window wouldn't be that big of a deal, but an apartment without a window would be a big deal.

I am not saying this is the best option available, but did Hatfield consider turning them into offices instead of apartments? An office without a window wouldn't be that big of a deal, but an apartment without a window would be a big deal.

I was thinking the same thing as well, although even an office with no natural sunlight would be pretty crappy and probably demand much smaller rent potential.

Is it even allowed under city construction code to have a residential unit with no window? Seems to go back to the days of tenement slums.

This is all part of the debate if renovations and adaptive reuse should have to meet the same requirements as new construction. I don't think it should.

Anyhow, my understanding is that in 5 years they can do whatever they want to the exterior.

Is it even allowed under city construction code to have a residential unit with no window?

That was my next question. I think to be considered a bedroom, it has to have a closet and a window. I guess they get away with it by calling it a loft instead.

I noticed the "Leasing Now" signs. I cannot imagine signing a lease on an apartment in that building until I could have a walk through.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/AutoLibraryatRearofDowntownLibrary131NW3c1954.jpg
1954

This is all part of the debate if renovations and adaptive reuse should have to meet the same requirements as new construction. I don't think it should.

Anyhow, my understanding is that in 5 years they can do whatever they want to the exterior.

But that won't happen. 5 years from now, IF they have tenants, who would want to live in a building while they're doing constructionon it. If you know that going into the lease, you are going to want something to make it up to you too. More money out of the developer's pocket. Plus, if they're already leasing, why would they want to do the additional work? Again, it would only mean money out of their pocket. It's not as though the developers are doing this to be great people....it's a business venture with the goal to maximize profit. Hell, in 5 years with the way things turn hands in downtown projects like this, they will be looking to sell the place.

I noticed the "Leasing Now" signs. I cannot imagine signing a lease on an apartment in that building until I could have a walk through.

If they are able to sign leases that is an indication of how high the demand is for downtown housing compared to the supply. If I am not mistaken, Level was fully leased or close to it before they opened.

As for Bomber's comment/question:

Maybe the can lease what they have at rate that allow a positive return without redoing the outside, but once the 5 year period has passed they can rent them for even more with a remodel, or maybe even convert them to for-sale housing. People live in apartments during remodels all the time, maybe not the actual unit while it is being remodeled, but it happens. The Deep Deuce apartments are being remodeled right now.

If they are able to sign leases that is an indication of how high the demand is for downtown housing compared to the supply. If I am not mistaken, Level was fully leased or close to it before they opened.

As for Bomber's comment/question:

Maybe the can lease what they have at rate that allow a positive return without redoing the outside, but once the 5 year period has passed they can rent them for even more with a remodel, or maybe even convert them to for-sale housing. People live in apartments during remodels all the time, maybe not the actual unit while it is being remodeled, but it happens. The Deep Deuce apartments are being remodeled right now.

Didn't Sid say something about the "renovations" at Deep Deuce apartments being horribly cheap and poorly done?

By the way, if you read this Sid, are you moving away? I thought I saw on Twitter somewhere that you're leaving OKC for a spell?

There is one of the renovated DD apartments listed right now for $1509 per month. That is 1200 sq ft.

Weren't these supposed to be for sale condos when they first were advertised? What changed with that?

2008.

There is one of the renovated DD apartments listed right now for $1509 per month. That is 1200 sq ft.

And that's overpriced.

I dont think you can blame 2008 on this one. That's the excuse anyone likes to give, but you forget that the housing market in OKC didn't follow the trend nationally, because we never got stupid in the first place with inflated prices. Did we have a few developments that didn't make it through, yes. However, those were also the developments that weren't on solid ground anyway...The Greens. Those that were built are the ones that had a good business plan with good backing. We did inrease downtown housing in that same time period, and had several large projects that were just getting off the ground (Dowell - and we see where that's gone).

The project didn't have sufficient financial backing to go with the original plan. The developer started looking for alternate resources, ie the historic money. The historic money has requiremements on it for things like keeping the exterior intact in its current state. That totally wiped out everything that made the project what it was. Bye bye condos, hello window-less lofts. Cheap the place down, and you cheapen the place.

The market for those high-end projects isn't really there anyway. I keep hearing people tell me that it is, except if it were we would have these developements complete, not on hold while they try and find buyers to even start. That's another reason this thing took a dive.

2008.

This would make sense if they weren't doing the project at all, but since they are still doing it and doing rentals instead, I am curoius if the 2008 financial crisis affected the amount of financing they could get.

For sale downtown housing was affected by the events of 2008. The Brownstones and the Hill were dead in the water after that. The Maywood Apartments and Central Ave. Villas sold slowly and I believe Block 42, which sold well initially, had to significantly lower prices to sell out the remainder. Only the Centennial seemed unaffecteded. I thought I remembered that financing was more difficult for condos and townhouses at that time, but am not totally sure. I do know we had to put down a 30% down payment to secure financing, which was a painfully large amount of cash to generate. Since the Carnegie was a bit behind the others, the stagnant market likely made presales almost nonexistent so financing was likely almost impossible to get. Those other developments were begun pre-2008.

2008 affected ALL condominium development nationwide, hot market or no. It had nothing to do with demand in OKC and everything to do with the enacting of draconian credit restrictions in the U.S. in response to overbuilt markets collapsing elsewhere. The new rules required a developer to have in-hand large cash deposits for a major percentage of the proposed units, making financing of spec condominiums virtually impossible, no matter where you live.

Considering the fact that nearly all condominium projects are built largely on spec, it effectively ended construction of any new condo projects in the United States, at least temporarily.

All the while, we still had several projects here continuing full speed. Survival of the fittest project my friends.

What people tend to forget is that the market was still in favor of the buyer. It's not that there just wasn't a market at all. Developers are the seller. As the seller, you had to be willing to either lower the cost, or in the lease/rental world, commit to a longer-term ROI. I purchased my home in that same window of time. I used a local bank before i refinanced to a national chain, so i used both types of institutions during the "crunch". Being a responsible investor and being able to put 10% down to avoid mortgage insurance makes a world of difference. The same goes for projects like this. Had the right financial investments been made, the thing would have been able to be done "crunch" or not. It didnt, so it didn't.

From the day the first massive disspointing changes were announced from this place, i have said it was doomed. I kept being told here that I was wrong. I said the high-end ones were going to the be first to go in a crunch...guess what happened. I've been proven right time and time again on this one. And those that keep the faith also keep making excuses for poor leadership on the development.

Nm

This would make sense if they weren't doing the project at all, but since they are still doing it and doing rentals instead, I am curoius if the 2008 financial crisis affected the amount of financing they could get.

You can get financing for rental now.

All the while, we still had several projects here continuing full speed. Survival of the fittest project my friends.

What people tend to forget is that the market was still in favor of the buyer. It's not that there just wasn't a market at all. Developers are the seller. As the seller, you had to be willing to either lower the cost, or in the lease/rental world, commit to a longer-term ROI. I purchased my home in that same window of time. I used a local bank before i refinanced to a national chain, so i used both types of institutions during the "crunch". Being a responsible investor and being able to put 10% down to avoid mortgage insurance makes a world of difference. The same goes for projects like this. Had the right financial investments been made, the thing would have been able to be done "crunch" or not. It didnt, so it didn't.

From the day the first massive disspointing changes were announced from this place, i have said it was doomed. I kept being told here that I was wrong. I said the high-end ones were going to the be first to go in a crunch...guess what happened. I've been proven right time and time again on this one. And those that keep the faith also keep making excuses for poor leadership on the development.

If you think OKC was fine during the housing bust, I can show you a list of the foreclosures put up for auction in Oklahoma County between 2009-2011. We weren't hit as bad as most places but to say we "didn't follow national trends" is factually incorrect.

Real estate is local, but the financing it gets is very much tied to national trends. For sale condos were seen as poison due to all of the rampant flipping, especially in places like Florida. So for developers, it was impossible to get financing. Remember, even low cost developments here like the Leslie were scrapped. It is interesting that now the economy has improved and lending standards have been lessened somewhat, sales are picking up.

And most developments that continued during the bust were either self-financed or changed to meet easier clearance standards, which would include for rent properties.

The for-sale condo projects that continued through the bust already had their financing in place. The finance freeze was nationwide. The formulas and mandates were nationwide. Even if a local bank wanted to do business with a longtime customer, they still require money from upstream banks. Those banks weren't able to lend. Regardless of how well OKC's economy weathered that storm, local developers still had to play by the same rules, and do to this day.

Here's where the disconnect is...because the above two posts are not entirely correct.

Those that shouldn't have been able to get a loan before, then couldn't at all. Those that were iffy, were simply denied. Those that were financially stable and didn't show risk, were able to get them. That's really how is should be most of the time in terms of home buying. Far too many poeple were able to get financing before at levels they weren't going to be able to afford. The default rate in OK was at the lowest in the U.S. Did we have some, yes. Was it at a level that warranted saying it impact all development? no.

The impact it did have here, was fall-out from the nation-wide trend. By that I mean that coporations based elsewhere that might have had plansto expand here, didn't because they lacked sufficient resources from their home-base to do it. The larger banks weren't able to make the larger loans, so they had to put things on hold.....ie a chain. In town, the local banks didn't neccessarily have that issue. There are plenty of them here that do not rely on the larger banks for a lifeline, they are instead used as a place to offload debts....ie resell a mortgage so they dont have to service it. Place like most of the local credit unions, Fidelities, Republic, etc. had sufficient backing to continue to make SMART loans. Carnegie != smart loan

I don't think it matters if the Carnegie (Center? Centre?) housing project does well or does poorly. I don't wish failure on people, and I'm sure the people who have put this together have done as well as they could given their circumstances. But if nobody rents these things, at worst it just sits empty (which is exactly how it is now). Perhaps it gets sold at a loss for someone else to operate and we get lower cost housing downtown. Or perhaps they get broken up into condos and sold. With the lack of windows, with the ugly exterior, this would be one of the last places downtown I would want to rent. But knock the price down by a few hundred bucks a month and I might give it a shot.

We are going to need housing of different price levels in our core. One of the ways that happens is completed projects that don't sell at their intended price.

If we have a member of this board who is a commercial lending agent, or in the commercial real estate business, perhaps they could sponsor and have a OKCTallk short seminar explaining the realities of financing projects like this. I think most people do not understand the steps involved and the outside influences which create problems. These projects are not simple. I think an evening listening to a pro would create more informed discussions. And, possibly it would lead to getting someone started in the business. This seminar could even be on-line with a WebEx or GoToMeeting event (we could bring our own wine to the session that way. :) )

And here's the nail in the coffin.....and guess what, the fully financed project not needing extra crazy sources gets done while the crap project with lack of funding all around, still craoking.

The Metropolitan (http://newsok.com/the-metropolitan-will-be-largest-single-housing-project-in-downtown-okc/article/3863714)