5th Avenue Apartments (the white tower overlooking the Memorial)?

Regency Tower.


(Garage Lofts, 5th Ave Lofts, etc..) doing?

I've called these two several times over the last couple years and they never have anything immediately available.

jbrown is correct on both of those questions.

Even though I am not a fan of renting, I would love to have some renting options because after looking downtown last summer at places to buy I still can't justify thier prices

Developer revives Carnegie Centre dream
By Brianna Bailey
Oklahoma City reporter - Contact 405-278-2847
Posted: 07:15 PM Tuesday, September 7, 2010
OKLAHOMA CITY – Norman developer Judy Hatfield has taken her visions of transforming the old downtown Carnegie Library on Dean A. McGee Avenue into a modern cluster of retail and office space and high-end condominiums back to the drawing board. The project stalled after the economy soured.
Hatfield has applied for both state and federal new markets tax credits and historic preservation tax credits to help finance the project. She now plans to rejuvenate the shuttered library’s modern 1950s façade.
New plans for the Carnegie Centre development call for a mixed-used building with historical features. The new project includes transforming the upscale condos Hatfield once envisioned into apartments with loftlike high ceilings and large open spaces.
She’s been working with architecture firm Beck Design on an updated look for the development.
“What we’re seeing now is there is a higher demand for rental properties,” Hatfield said.
Hatfield also is in the process of rebidding the project and is considering new bids from three separate contractors.
If the project gets approval for the tax credits, Hatfield hopes to begin construction in early 2011.
Hatfield acquired the library from the city for $775,000 in 2007 and announced plans for a $10 million overhaul that included 18 condominiums with five one-bedroom units and four two-bedroom units, ranging in price from $155,000 to $750,000.
However, the downtown housing market cooled and construction never got off the ground.
“It’s a good project and I hope they can start work on it soon,” said Jane Jenkins, president and chief executive of Downtown OKC Inc.
A library had stood on the site for more than 100 years, but the boxy, modern structure that now sits at the corner of Dean A. McGee and N. Robinson avenues was built in 1954. The building has been shuttered since 2004, when the Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library opened at 300 Park Ave.
The project could qualify for historic tax credits because the property has never undergone any major exterior or interior alterations and is eligible for the National Register of Historic Places, said Harry Simms, historic preservation architect for the State Historic Preservation Office.
“It’s an example of the modern style of architecture as it was coming into vogue in the Southwest in the first half of the 20th century,” Simms said.

I thought Gov. Henry placed a two-year halt on all state historic tax credits...obviously I'm wrong. Can someone clear that up?

I think the credits have been deferred for two years, which I would interpret to mean that the money won't be paid until after the moratorium lapses. Someone may want to jump in and correct me on that though.

Yeah, The Classen is definitely not "mostly empty" either. Park Harvey and The Montgomery are also two successful for-rent Tanenbaum projects. One thing that pisses me off about Tanenbaum though is that they stopped doing downtown projects and focused everything on "The Lincoln at 'Central' Park" and started marketing it as downtown. Now there are people who lease apartments there because they legitimately think they're "downtown." I even have a good friend who was in the middle of moving to Deep Deuce but after crappy customer service decided on "The Lincoln at 'Central' Park" for his "downtown apartment.

That just shows you how ridiculous the demand is for downtown apartments, and how there really is NOTHING easily available downtown. People are moving to far NE OKC (like 6000 area of Lincoln Blvd) as downtown rental overflow. How pathetic is that? And the schmucks at Gardner-Tanenbaum are cashing in on the downtown demand simply by doing another damn suburban cookie cutter apartment complex in a really bizarre area of town on the way to the burbs.

The Lincoln is in a strange location but is very popular with young professionals. I know several people that live there, all in their mid 20's. Too bad it's not closer to downtown.

On a side note I went to their pool one Saturday a few weeks ago. All I can say is WOW.

The Lincoln is in a strange location but is very popular with young professionals. I know several people that live there, all in their mid 20's. Too bad it's not closer to downtown.

On a side note I went to their pool one Saturday a few weeks ago. All I can say is WOW.

Is that a good wow or bad wow? You should have said more than wow.

Is that a good wow or bad wow? You should have said more than wow.

Good wow. I almost felt like I was at one of the pools in Vegas.

I would guess that the economics worked out better at the Lincoln location as it was vacant land. We can want development downtown all we want, but it is not just demand that will drive it, it is demand from people who will pay what it costs for the developer to make comparable profit. One good thing though, as the vacant land surrounding downtown is developed, it will help drive development in the core...especially with retail.

I thought Gov. Henry placed a two-year halt on all state historic tax credits...obviously I'm wrong. Can someone clear that up?

Not to quibble, but the moratorium was an agreement between Gov. Henry and the Republican leadership in the House and Senate.

I thought Gov. Henry placed a two-year halt on all state historic tax credits...obviously I'm wrong. Can someone clear that up?

No, it only affected projects already approved. Historic tax credits aren't awarded until a project is finished and taxes are already spent on the construction. They are guaranteed in advance from the state and backed up by banks who deal them as currency. If you decide not to award tax credits for two years, you just fall back on what you guaranteed a few years ago and which is why they were deferred, and not done away with--they'll still get them, just two years late now.

Gotcha, thanks Spartan.

I'm glad to see development happening in the core of our city but this sounds like just another upper class development for downtown housing, as if that demand exist.

Soonerguru, you really saw my question as a republican/democrat slant? ugh.

Is this project alive or dead?

Any guesses?

Well seeing as they haven't done anything at all on the project, i would say it's dead. That's unfortunate too.

I remember the early articles saying they had to presell a certain number of units to start, and I bet they didn't, or financing dried up.

The units are still for pre-sale on the MLS system, so they still must have some hope.

Yeah the project is still alive, but moving slowly

Fwiw, they tweeted back in January that they are setting lease rates.

Also, http://www.carnegieokc.com/

They want $225,000 for an 800 sf unfinished loft. Yeeeeah....

On the floor plan it looks like it's a shared bathroom. That's just exactly like my room, just slightly bigger, that I am renting here in Sweden for about $650...wow.

Exactly Spartan, that's why IMO they haven't been selling, way too much for the sq ft compared to other upscale downtown developments. I've been in the model unit and it is very nice, and personally think the west facing ones have some of the bestndowntown views. Leasing is the only way they will fill this.

This is a great location for downtown living. One of the best, imo.

I'm sure the Sandridge demo is hurting them right now. Once Sandridge exterior remake is completed, I predict these to sell / lease quickly.

http://www.carnegieokc.com/

Hey guys! Yes, the Carnegie Centre is still ALIVE! :) The original plan was to sell the lofts as condos until the market down turn. Since then we've had a lot of inquiries about leasing so we've decided to finish out the lofts and lease. They're going to look AMAZING btw! We're waiting on a few final approvals before we post the lease rates then will be under construction shortly!!

I'm sure the Sandridge demo is hurting them right now. Once Sandridge exterior remake is completed, I predict these to sell / lease quickly.



Hopefully so. We need it to counteract the loss of urban vitality.

This is a great location for downtown living. One of the best, imo.

I'm sure the Sandridge demo is hurting them right now. Once Sandridge exterior remake is completed, I predict these to sell / lease quickly.

http://www.carnegieokc.com/

Other than your obvious hate for Sandridge, what the heck does Sandridge have to do with Carnegie leasing? Next you will blame Sandridge for WWII and global warming.

Rover, I haven't looked at a map but I am guessing by the comment that the Carnegie is in close proximity to SandRidge. Replace SandRidge with Devon if you want, would you want to be living next to a demolition/construction zone with all the problems that go with that? You did catch the last part of the post where he said once it is complete (demo/construction) that they should sell well?

Other than your obvious hate for Sandridge, what the heck does Sandridge have to do with Carnegie leasing? Next you will blame Sandridge for WWII and global warming.

No it seems pretty reasonable, to me. It's like suggesting that the Colcord's occupancy might be down due to Devon. Well duh.. except we have no problem admitting that because Devon is universally appreciated, unlike SandRidge, where things get controversial...

I don't think that was a SandRidge hate comment, from okclee. But just to be clear, I still despise SandRidge and their ilk, including that one lawyer who used his p's to obfuscate the sound in City Hall and all the commissioners they coerced to get a positive verdict...in case anyone suspected me of getting soft for SandRidge! :-)

No it seems pretty reasonable, to me. It's like suggesting that the Colcord's occupancy might be down due to Devon. Well duh.. except we have no problem admitting that because Devon is universally appreciated, unlike SandRidge, where things get controversial...

I don't think that was a SandRidge hate comment, from okclee. But just to be clear, I still despise SandRidge and their ilk, including that one lawyer who used his p's to obfuscate the sound in City Hall and all the commissioners they coerced to get a positive verdict...in case anyone suspected me of getting soft for SandRidge! :-)

I certainly can't and don't want to defend SandRidge. However, downtown will suffer until Project 180 is substantially complete. If it were just SandRidge, that alone would have minimal affect. The fact that access is limited throughout the downtown is definitely a problem. To single out Devon, SR, or any other single project as a reason Carnegie or any other downtown residential project is not progressing is just wrong. To isolate SR as the devil on THIS project is misdirected, imho.

Other than your obvious hate for Sandridge, what the heck does Sandridge have to do with Carnegie leasing? Next you will blame Sandridge for WWII and global warming.

It is funny what will set people off sometimes, sorry if I touched a sore spot for you or something that was not my intent. Also I never said I hated SR or acted as if they are "the Devil".

You ask "what SR has to do with the Carnegie leasing?" I am in this part of downtown (Robinson & Dean McGee) often at least a few times a week and it is truly a huge construction zone. You could get run over by a bulldozer, dump truck or hit by a wrecking ball if your not careful. Sure there is project 180, but SR is undertaking the largest downtown demo project since infamous urban renewal of the 1970's.

I simply stated my opinion that once SR work is complete and changes are made the Carnegie will sell / lease very quickly. Love or hate the SR campus remake, it will have a positive impact on the Carnegie. Just think of the views from your condo or loft after the completion of SR.

Take another look at the architects website for SR campus and decide for yourself. http://www.rogersmarvel.com/Sandridge.html

Lee. I am sorry if I implied you said they were the devil. My only point is that SR is not responsible for Carnegie's position, but that it is a PART of the issue. All of 180 has made downtown very difficult to maneuver in. I think that 2 years from now it will be SIGNIFICANTLY more attractive to locate in the very core, whether for office or residence. I myself have been wresting with where to locate two company offices and had to eliminate downtown for the time being because of the issues. We will locate in the Memorial corridor until things clear up. I am looking at short term leases until we can truly evaluate the benefits of being downtown. But for now, it is a mess. And yes, SR is a part of that mess.

I certainly can't and don't want to defend SandRidge. However, downtown will suffer until Project 180 is substantially complete. If it were just SandRidge, that alone would have minimal affect. The fact that access is limited throughout the downtown is definitely a problem. To single out Devon, SR, or any other single project as a reason Carnegie or any other downtown residential project is not progressing is just wrong. To isolate SR as the devil on THIS project is misdirected, imho.

Agreed.

Granted, closer to one or the other, you may have more of a "sphere of influence" as far as construction headaches go. For example, the Colcord's present unfortunate situation.

Guys see post above from the owners saying the project is moving forward as a for lease property.

Oh I see, I guess it got stuck in the first-post filter?


Hey guys! Yes, the Carnegie Centre is still ALIVE! :) The original plan was to sell the lofts as condos until the market down turn. Since then we've had a lot of inquiries about leasing so we've decided to finish out the lofts and lease. They're going to look AMAZING btw! We're waiting on a few final approvals before we post the lease rates then will be under construction shortly!!

Good news, that will be a great for-lease property! Good luck.

So does this mean that the building is being renovated now and we will soon see the face of it improved?

Hopefully so! The facade is horrible, and really blends in a bit "too" well with the AT&T building. The plans presented before showed great improvement.

Oh I see, I guess it got stuck in the first-post filter?



Good news, that will be a great for-lease property! Good luck.

Thanks Spartan!


So does this mean that the building is being renovated now and we will soon see the face of it improved?

We hope to start construction within 3-4 months and yes we are going to improve the facade!!

Thanks so much for the information.

Will the exterior still look similar to the original design?

http://olive.newsok.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=DOK/2007/12/21/34/Img/Pc0340600.jpg

Here's some photos from the website's Virtual Tour.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/carnegiecenterexterior.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/carnegiecenterrooftopterrace1.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/carnegiecenterrooftopterrace2.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/carnegiecenterrooftopterrace3.jpg

Thanks so much for the information.

Will the exterior still look similar to the original design?

http://olive.newsok.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=DOK/2007/12/21/34/Img/Pc0340600.jpg

No problem! We are trying to keep the design as close to the original (see Virtual Pictures) as we can. There will be a few modifications but once I know exactly for sure I'll let you know!

Really looking forward to this and hope it's still on. They said on twitter back in April that they hoped to start construction within 4 months.

Does not appear as if that's going to happen.

Spartan, you are saying it is not going to happen because 4 months has past or you know the project is dead?

I don't see it breaking ground this year, hope it does eventually, but I'm probably even less confident in this project than I am in the Mercy redevelopment. LOL

I thought there was a Carnegie Sign on the exterior that is now gone. But I could be mistaken all together.

I thought there was a Carnegie Sign on the exterior that is now gone. But I could be mistaken all together.

An original sign or one that was promoting the development?

I just walked by and the ground floor was full of LINGO construction people. I suspect they are leasing it for their field office for the Sandridge Project.

Regarding the development, I am confident that it will happen in some form. If Judy Hatfield is smart (which she is), she will wait until housing stabilizes downtown and the market absorbs some of the unfilled high-end stuff. Her development will certainly obtain more viability when the streetcar line and the historic Braniff building across the street are completed.

Hmm, i seem to remember commenting several times about how OKC had too many high end apartment offerings and that they needed more of the middle ground. AND that the first thing to suffer when the economy had problems, would be the high end stuff. Striking how that seems to have turned out to be EXACTLLY what happened here huh? Maybe now someone will listen. I tell you, downtown will never be a vibrant sustainable residential area until it is no longer populated by only upscale crap. You will never ever ever get what we all say we want as an urban area there while that happens. The Neuvo Riche are not that urbanity is about. Find me another city that the fake crap of the upscale is what defines their urban environment. It might start to help kick someone off, by it won't/can't last. The Neuvo Riche are the most fickle folks you'll find. Once the next "hip" thing comes up for that crowd, they'll simply move on and adandon what's there now. If you at least start with something that can help the average joe live downtown, then you'll see some staying power.....the average joe does NOT move nearly as often. That's where you'll find the base for the precious grocery store, etc. I get so tired of people trying to make downtown into a upscale only area, when that is NOT what it is....ever was...or ever should be.

WOW. Seems like someone on here has a hostility towards successful people...or a jealousy.

When will everyone with their petty positions start to realize that it is a MIX that works. We aren't building a large scale apartment district, but a sustaining core city. Jobs are required. Condo's are required ... high and moderate. Apartments for rent are required. Ma and pa retail. National brands. Bars and museums. Fine art and street art. Fine wine and beer. Hot dogs and haute cuisine. ALL are welcome and REQUIRED downtown. This class war of words is pathetic.

When will everyone with their petty positions start to realize that it is a MIX that works. We aren't building a large scale apartment district, but a sustaining core city. Jobs are required. Condo's are required ... high and moderate. Apartments for rent are required. Ma and pa retail. National brands. Bars and museums. Fine art and street art. Fine wine and beer. Hot dogs and haute cuisine. ALL are welcome and REQUIRED downtown. This class war of words is pathetic.

Love it!

Okc Chamber of Commerce should post this quote on their website.

WOW. Seems like someone on here has a hostility towards successful people...or a jealousy.

When will everyone with their petty positions start to realize that it is a MIX that works. We aren't building a large scale apartment district, but a sustaining core city. Jobs are required. Condo's are required ... high and moderate. Apartments for rent are required. Ma and pa retail. National brands. Bars and museums. Fine art and street art. Fine wine and beer. Hot dogs and haute cuisine. ALL are welcome and REQUIRED downtown. This class war of words is pathetic.

Dear Mr. Condescension,

I believe that's the point he was trying to make. You obviously didn't even bother to read it before launching another of your bromides. What he was saying is we can't have a downtown that caters exclusively to the rich. You seem to agree that downtown should be for everyone, yet you cannot resist the temptation to take a shot at another poster.

Who thinks downtown caters only to the rich? There's more housing in the downtown area for the nonrich than the rich, especially compared to most cities. It may not be for sale housing, but what people here consider prices affordable only by the rich, in most cities are entry level prices per square foot. If it were profitable for developers to build housing for less downtown, they'd do it, because there are more people in the world who love a bargain, than people who like to pay "top dollar" (whatever that means).

Dear Mr. Condescension,

I believe that's the point he was trying to make. You obviously didn't even bother to read it before launching another of your bromides. What he was saying is we can't have a downtown that caters exclusively to the rich. You seem to agree that downtown should be for everyone, yet you cannot resist the temptation to take a shot at another poster.

If you read his rant against the rich you would see it was more about that than balance and diversity . By the way, our "rich" don't live downtown, let alone downtown being skewed that way. I swear, some here must think being able to buy a $300,000 home makes you "rich".

Dear Mr. Condescension,

I believe that's the point he was trying to make. You obviously didn't even bother to read it before launching another of your bromides. What he was saying is we can't have a downtown that caters exclusively to the rich. You seem to agree that downtown should be for everyone, yet you cannot resist the temptation to take a shot at another poster.

Rover is the defender of the rich and powerful in OKC. If ever a negative thing is said about them Rover will be here to save the day!

Hmm, i seem to remember commenting several times about how OKC had too many high end apartment offerings and that they needed more of the middle ground. AND that the first thing to suffer when the economy had problems, would be the high end stuff. Striking how that seems to have turned out to be EXACTLLY what happened here huh? Maybe now someone will listen. I tell you, downtown will never be a vibrant sustainable residential area until it is no longer populated by only upscale crap. You will never ever ever get what we all say we want as an urban area there while that happens. The Neuvo Riche are not that urbanity is about. Find me another city that the fake crap of the upscale is what defines their urban environment. It might start to help kick someone off, by it won't/can't last. The Neuvo Riche are the most fickle folks you'll find. Once the next "hip" thing comes up for that crowd, they'll simply move on and adandon what's there now. If you at least start with something that can help the average joe live downtown, then you'll see some staying power.....the average joe does NOT move nearly as often. That's where you'll find the base for the precious grocery store, etc. I get so tired of people trying to make downtown into a upscale only area, when that is NOT what it is....ever was...or ever should be.

Alright bomber, feel free to invest in some cheaper housing downtown, or to share any thoughts you have that are actually relevant to this private housing project here... You've been totally for some pretty shoddy development before, and now you're against some quality development just to be oppositional. I don't understand it.

The only housing downtown that I would say is affordable only for the fairly wealthy is City Place. When you get into the 1.5 million dollar category in OKC, you've probably risen above upper middle class. Everything else that's for sale has loan costs affordable by people I wouldn't categorize as rich. Carnegie Centre's original pricing was $150-700,000 IIRC.

I think that soonerguru probably laments the fact that we do not have housing for many average middle class that can afford $140 - $250. Think if a Deep Deuce type rent was transferable into a mortgage and you would have tons more people investing permanently in downtown. The problem is that such pricing is woodframe construction and requires units enmasse to make a project successful. Then long term maintenance needs can only be effectively taken care of with a strong HOA with dues that are hedged. Nobody has wanted or tried to take that on yet.

The only thing that would be more effective is a skyscraper condo with unit numbers and effeciences through floor plate repition to bring the costs down and maintain strong building materials. My guess is that type of investment will eventually, hopefully come from out of state.

We also have no artists lofts which is why the Paseo and Plaza thrive as creative districts. Diversity in downtown's usually come from such consortiums as a component too.

Well, my hats off to Judy Hatfield for trying to do something different with a "white elephant" building. When the time is right, I am sure that she will succeed as Sandridge and the streetcar invest in the area.

Spartan - find a "spotty" development I've been in favor of. Back up the claim.

As Rover said, what I'm looking for is diversity in the market....a balance. Find me a CBD (NOT Deep Deuce area, NOT Midtown....CBD) development anyone has tossed around in the last 20 years that would hit even the 1000 a month rent. The last time anything like that was built, it was at the bust, went from highrise to suburban complex and still sits there next to the Civic Center. Legacy Corner is the next closest thing you'll find...and honey, it doesn't qualify.

Everything we see is for upscale...and mostly not in the rental market. I'm not trying to match suburbia here, but you find me a city that is capable of maintaining a upscale only residential network in their CBD. So far we've seen that OKC cannot. We've had so many re-development projects of old structures into upscale residential that the market is full now...to the point that new projects like Carnegie cannot get off the ground. Not to mention the fact that is appears that the upscale now are making it clear that they no longer wish to live in the CBD. So while the old United Founders Tower is now full up on the NW side, where are we on Carnegie and Dowell? Not to mention the others around here.

So you go ahead and defend the upscale ideal. Come back and talk to me when it crashes even further.....paid any attention to market conditions in the last 5 years? FYI - upscale was the first to go and will be the last to recover. And it also causes a waterfall since the places sit empty during the in-between. Then the owners of those properties go under with the lack of income, starting the snowball to the next level.

What I want is diversity and balance in the market. Not letting it tip to one side or the other. Not all upscale, not Section 8 either. But we've told the residents of OKC that if you aren't rich, you can't live in the CBD...oh but you can have a suburban style apartment just outside it in Deep Deuce....yeah, cause that's the same thing, right? A fake Brownstone is totally the same as living in a highrise....please.

UP, I paid $220 a foot for my townhouse. I believe you can buy at Block 42 for $180 a foot. I understand the lament, but since the $100 to $140 a foot target population is so much bigger than the market above, if it were profitable to build at those prices downtown, I think you would see it happening.

But, as we've argued time and time again, bomber, show me a city in the US that has for sale housing in the price ranges you're talking about, even adjusted for differences in cost of living. Since I have family in NYC, Chicago and SF, I can tell you it doesn't exist. To pay $200 a foot-type prices, you've got to live 2+ miles from downtown, and count yourself lucky to find a fixer upper in those sorts of price ranges. Most young people in big cities rent, and it's only the young who inherit money or who strike it rich who get to buy the big lofts/apartments downtown. My daughter who lives in San Francisco is sharing an apartment with two other people that they negotiated down to $4,000 a month for rent for an apartment facing an alley about a mile from downtown. My other daughter in Chicago pays $2,000 a month two miles from downtown for 1000 square feet.

Our near-downtown equivalents of affordable housing for the young exist and have a lot of potential currently. SoSA, Midtown, the Plaza District, the Paseo, Jefferson Park, even Capitol Hill are the kinds of places that, in other cities, younger people buy and fix up homes, ultimately gentrifying the locations. What's wrong with them? I would heartily endorse buying a home in one of those neighborhoods to a child of mine, if I were lucky enough to have them move back here. I suppose we could have the "cold water flat" equivalents in Bricktown, if businesses wanted to lease upper stories as lofts. But, again, in most cities, those are all leases.

If someone builds a highrise apartment, and I'd be all for it, I seriously doubt it would be in the $100 to $150 a foot price range either.