Yeah, and OCURA doesn't have a great track record for "reasonable amount of time" OR letting developers water down designs.

Having had intimate information about both of the plans, I can tell you that Ms. Ellard's plan was not superior to the one that was eventually selected. There were major questions with the proposal, as well as with the financial numbers presented - they didn't work.

Also, her track record in actually completing a developement project in a reasonable amount of time (defined as under 5 years, at a minimum) was not good.

I've seen both proposals. Mixed use condo/rental/retail vs. 800 thousand dollar faux french chateau style townhomes. Economic sense is at least somewhat in the eye of the beholder, it would seem.

It took a long time for the Sieber Hotel to get done, but that style of financing is very difficult from what I understand. The fact of the matter is that she was committed to the vision and got it done basically as proposed.

In previous reports, a lender said the financing for Ellard's project had already been arranged.

And beyond that, an exclusive all-townhouse development doesn't make a lot of sense on a property surrounded on all sides by commercial development. And certainly adds almost nothing to the community.


Regardless, if Wiggin can't perform after all this time they need to re-open the process for new proposals.

Regardless, if Wiggin can't perform after all this time they need to re-open the process for new proposals.

I imagine this will happen in the near future. Economic prospects have darkened substantially and this makes no sense to build, aside for as a labor of love, even if he could get the financing.

But historically, OCURA has allowed the awarded developer to hold a property for long periods of time -- well past deadlines.

THEY need to be the ones to step in and demand performance or take back the property.

I'm not holding my breath.

I imagine this will happen in the near future. Economic prospects have darkened substantially and this makes no sense to build, aside for as a labor of love, even if he could get the financing.

Maybe Steve needs to be a little harder on these guys. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Maybe Steve needs to be a little harder on these guys. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I agree. I'd love to see Steve come out and put some pressure on them with an article. I'm not holding my breath on OCURA doing the right thing and putting pressure on the developer though.

. . . And beyond that, an exclusive all-townhouse development doesn't make a lot of sense on a property surrounded on all sides by commercial development. And certainly adds almost nothing to the community. . . .

I totally disagree with you on this issue Pete. Though the south side of 13th is mostly professional offices and other commercial buildings and the other three sides of the Mercy site are also populated by the same uses, Heritage Hills neighborhood is only 1/2 block further north and that is the residential connection to the Wiggin project.

Fast forward 20 or so years to when the north side of Midtown will be completely filled in, the intersection of NW 13th and Walker has been reworked to be much more pedestrian friendly as part of the new Downtown Streetscape plan, really becoming a strong pedestrian connector between HH and Midtown, The Osler is a completely occupied functioning mixed use building, the Walker Avenue retail strip is bustling, you're sitting at the bar in 1492 watching the pedestrian traffic up and down Walker between Heritage Hills and Plaza Court and saying to yourself; "wow, I thought this day would never come, this has turned into an absolutely fabulous neighborhood" then some really, really old fart in tennis shoes plops down on the adjacent barstool and says "hey Pete, can I buy you a drink" . . . well that's how I see it anyhow.

As far as changes to Chuck Wiggin's project plan and the associated delays . . . put yourself in his place for a minute. It's easy for us out here with nothing on the line to look into our crystal balls and see nothing but a rosy future, however our asses are not on the line. I've seen lots of good ideas get half built and go down the tubes. Classen Glen, Sycamore Square and Neal Horton's holdings in Bricktown being among the most notable.

Chuck Wiggin is an intellegent and very cautious person and I'm more than willing to cut him a little slack. I wasn't willing to take the same position with the Henderson Legacy project however, even though many of the delays were beyond his control.

Pray for world peace . . . pass it on.

Michael

ODG, I'm all for residential at that site, just not only expensive units with absolutely nothing else. Ellard's project had a small hotel, some apartments and retail.

I'm not faulting Wiggin and am glad he's willing to invest in the area. He has, however, now missed two deadlines.

I just think it was the wrong project for that site and now that that has more or less been proven out, time for OCURA to take it back and invite in other developers.

I totally disagree with you on this issue Pete. Though the south side of 13th is mostly professional offices and other commercial buildings and the other three sides of the Mercy site are also populated by the same uses, Heritage Hills neighborhood is only 1/2 block further north and that is the residential connection to the Wiggin project.

Fast forward 20 or so years to when the north side of Midtown will be completely filled in, the intersection of NW 13th and Walker has been reworked to be much more pedestrian friendly as part of the new Downtown Streetscape plan, really becoming a strong pedestrian connector between HH and Midtown, The Osler is a completely occupied functioning mixed use building, the Walker Avenue retail strip is bustling, you're sitting at the bar in 1492 watching the pedestrian traffic up and down Walker between Heritage Hills and Plaza Court and saying to yourself; "wow, I thought this day would never come, this has turned into an absolutely fabulous neighborhood" then some really, really old fart in tennis shoes plops down on the adjacent barstool and says "hey Pete, can I buy you a drink" . . . well that's how I see it anyhow.

How does that only happen if Wiggin gets to build his expensive condos? Sounds to me like a mixed-use development including retail and a hotel would be much more conducive to that.

The site should at least have retail on the East and South sides, imo.

I can understand that Wiggin is probably stuck at this point; a victim of market conditions. That being said, OCURA and Wiggin need to face this fact and move forward. If it's not going to happen, admit it and reopen the bidding process, though I doubt there is much hope right now for much to happen on that site in the near future. At least Wayne Coyne and the skeleton crew will have a nice launching pad for the next few Halloweens.

Yeah, and OCURA doesn't have a great track record for "reasonable amount of time" OR letting developers water down designs.

One other thing can be certain, that OCURA does have a great track record for picking Marva Ellard over much better proposals, so I doubt it's anything personal..especially since I preferred the original Overholser project.

And I'm shocked you all can say the site is surrounded by businesses on all sides. On one side there is a church, which I would be one to absolutely consider a church a business, at least land-use-wise, it's not (technically). On another side there is a small office building. On the other two sides it's surrounded by parking lots. It is closer to houses in Heritage Hills than it is to the Plaza Court.

But small points. Just thought I'd step in and sort through all the bull**** being said..

And I'm shocked you all can say the site is surrounded by businesses on all sides. On one side there is a church, which I would be one to absolutely consider a church a business, at least land-use-wise, it's not (technically). On another side there is a small office building. On the other two sides it's surrounded by parking lots.

You're shocked that people consider office buildings and parking lots used by businesses as business uses? You must have a very low shock threshold; does such a minor difference in perspective really warrant calling another viewpoint BS, much less using uncensored profanity?

The point was that it's not at all surrounded by housing; it's commercial uses rather than residential.


And if you can't participate here without insulting others and using profanity, you will be banned again, and this time it will be permanent. I've personally warned you several times.

Oh snap I better say Overholser Sucks and so does Wiggin. OCURA stinks blah blah.

When someone says a site is surrounded by businesses it implies that it's "busy" which that block is hardly.

And if you've banned me before, I didn't know it. I usually consider it to be fair-play to leave moderation matters to be private. That's kind of like the debate equivalent of running up the score in the 4th quarter of the season opener.

Has nothing to do with a difference of opinion, it has everything to do with how you express it.

And I've warned you in private several times but when you come here and write such nonsense and use profanity in doing so -- something I'm sure you don't do or tolerate on your own board -- and do it multiple times, your right to courtesy (which also has been shown multiple times) is forfeited.

Is it just me or does this space seem ideal for a full service grocery store?

It would have the Heritage Hill/Mesta Park market locked and could extend its pull farther north into the other historic districts. It would be accessible to both Mid-Town and the Triangle, so it's market will grow significantly over the next 5 years? I know grocery stores aren't usually built on speculating future growth, but this just seems like one of the few totally empty and contiguous spaces downtown that could accommodate a larger scale grocery store with no demolition or renovation.

Has nothing to do with a difference of opinion, it has everything to do with how you express it.

And I've warned you in private several times but when you come here and write such nonsense and use profanity in doing so -- something I'm sure you don't do or tolerate on your own board -- and do it multiple times, your right to courtesy (which also has been shown multiple times) is forfeited.

It's not like I'm not used to you guys making a public spectacle out of "moderating" when it comes to me..

Anyway.

Is it just me or does this space seem ideal for a full service grocery store?

It would have the Heritage Hill/Mesta Park market locked and could extend its pull farther north into the other historic districts. It would be accessible to both Mid-Town and the Triangle, so it's market will grow significantly over the next 5 years? I know grocery stores aren't usually built on speculating future growth, but this just seems like one of the few totally empty and contiguous spaces downtown that could accommodate a larger scale grocery store with no demolition or renovation.

That sounds good, I just get the feeling the Heritage Hills neighbors don't want anything on that lot that might lead to people parking on their streets. An overly cynical viewpoint, perhaps. I hope.

Look at Tulsa, I'm always having to park back in the neighborhood when I go to the northern end of Brookside in Tulsa (where parking is really scarce) or Cherry Street (even though that surrounding neighborhood is even denser than the restaurant strip)..it has happened before. But for some reason it would have to seem like getting a parking spot well on the other side of 13th Street would constitute being a failure in life.

One other thing can be certain, that OCURA does have a great track record for picking Marva Ellard over much better proposals, so I doubt it's anything personal..especially since I preferred the original Overholser project.

And I'm shocked you all can say the site is surrounded by businesses on all sides. On one side there is a church, which I would be one to absolutely consider a church a business, at least land-use-wise, it's not (technically). On another side there is a small office building. On the other two sides it's surrounded by parking lots. It is closer to houses in Heritage Hills than it is to the Plaza Court.

But small points. Just thought I'd step in and sort through all the bull**** being said..

Take a look:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l266/orangepower3000/SITE.jpg

When someone says a site is surrounded by businesses it implies that it's "busy" which that block is hardly.

No, it means it's surrounded by businesses.

Take a look:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l266/orangepower3000/SITE.jpg

I think "dead with life in a few places" would be a better label than "commercial or mixed-use."

I think "dead with life in a few places" would be a better label than "commercial or mixed-use."

Is that all you got?

Lame.

The reason I raised the "not immediately adjoining any homes" point was that OCURA had included a panel of HH homeowners to provide input in their selection process. That was a nice gesture but there should have been some of the surrounding Midtown businesses involved and fewer homeowners.

And of course, with their input a high-end residential-only project was selected. What group of affluent homeowners wouldn't make that choice? You just know you're going to get the not-in-my-backyard attitude.

But of course, this isn't in anyone's backyard. It's across a busy street and half a block from any home and surrounded on all sides by commercial properties.

Now that it looks like Wiggin is not going to get his project off the ground, the process should be re-opened and this time if they are going to invite property owners from the area, it should be Midtown business owners and a minority of people from Heritage Hills, if any.

From today's Oklahoman:


Chuck Wiggin, developer of the proposed $61.3 million Overholser Greens condominiums, told Urban Renewal earlier this year he hoped to start construction at NW 13 and Dewey this month.

"I just came from a bank board meeting,” Wiggin said. "There is a lot of stuff on hold right now. With Overholser Greens, we’re trying to be realistic about the economic climate we’re in. Right now, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to be pushing ahead on a firm timetable with this project. It doesn’t mean we won’t be doing it; we just won’t be doing it this quarter or next.”

Here we go again with 1) substantially changed projects from what was approved and 2) missing yet another deadline with no firm start date in site.

Pete, totally agree. And as usual, the media won't pick this up (Steve might be the only one to give it coverage), and then it goes back to the daily grind, and no one in the city or chamber has any cajones to step up to this nonsense.

It seems pretty clear that the citizen committee comprised of Heritage Hills residents had a lot to do with choosing this type of development, even though the property is technically in Midtown.

Of course they want only residential and only higher-end properties, but that doesn't serve the community in any way.

I hope Mr. Wiggin can get this going, though. We'll soon see if OCURA holds him to the deadlines.

Pete...I live in heritage hills and personally know of no one who desired the wiggins proposal over the ellard proposal. We want retail and additional eateries around the borders of our neighborhood. Of course, take it with a grain of salt, because we also want all of the north south and east west streets closed to through traffic with the exception of two streets in each of the four directions (including mesta park). We would also like to see Joe's Pawn Shop, the plasma center, planned parenthood, and several other businesses along 23rd street relocate.

That sounds good, I just get the feeling the Heritage Hills neighbors don't want anything on that lot that might lead to people parking on their streets. An overly cynical viewpoint, perhaps. I hope.


Yeah, your being overly cynical. In our neighborhood we are used to having vehicles parked all up and down the street, in front of our houses, and even occassionally blocking our driveways (unintentionally of course). The great thing about HH/MP is that most of the neighbors are fantastically understanding. (There is of course the 10% exception to the rule) You will find that both neighborhoods are undergoing major demographic changes. More and more houses (typically on the north side of the neighborhoods) are being occupied by young married professionals. It is (in my opinion) the best of both worlds. The ability to own your own historic property with decent sized lots, insulated from the buzz of the city (due to 80-100 year old growth trees), yet close enough to enjoy all the offerings of urban dwelling. Typically my entire block enjoys the evenings hanging out on one of the front porches, having cocktails or maybe enjoying dinner together. It's $4 bucks for a taxi to bricktown or a Thunder game. We love it, and we are excited to see more eateries and retail being planned.