Honestly I'd really like to live someplace that says "young professional." I have nothing against other generations, but it would be nice for once to be around other business people my age


Yes, that's what I've been thinking. That's the problem with the price range. Most young professionals starting out with starting salaries (and maybe still paying off college loans) can't qualify or afford the prices they are asking!

So that leaves older professionals who at this stage in their lives might have children to think about - it's either the burbs for great schools or private schools.

Then you have the empty nesters who have wealth and the ability to purchase the homes.. but maybe some don't want the vibrancy of downtown? Some do, but some want a more quiet/mellow lifestyle (no offense to anyone!).

So, in summary, I'm thinking the demographics and clients purchasing the homes incomes, have to match the asking price of the units and most don't.

A lot of those young professionals have parents who help significantly with purchasing a home.

Do you know anyone who's adopting?

Not at the moment. I'll keep you posted.

In other news, I ran the number on Block 42 -- they're asking $215+ per square foot. Maywood Park is around $225+/sq. ft. Central Avenue Villas are $215+ per quare foot. The Lofts At Maywood Park, remember, the "low cost" option? Where most of the units are less than 1000 square feet?? They average around $225/square foot.

None of these properties are, in my opinion priced anywhere close to being realistic.

The Harvey Lofts? Not really anywhere close to Bricktown? Still about 10 blocks from the CBD, and in a pretty shady part of town? They're selling at the bargain basement price of around $177/square foot.

My theory is that right now, the supply is filling a niche market for real estate. Once that market it gone, it'll be gone. Also, the folks buying in are going to have an impossible time selling their homes for a profit when there is new construction going on all around them amid probably lower prices due to the elimination of those niche 'early adopters' and an overall greater supply of housing.

In short, buying in any of these additions at these prices right now is not a good move unless one doesn't really care about losing money.

I agree that selling for a huge profit will not be easy. It's the same thing that happens in other neighborhoods when you've got a lot of construction. Many people want to buy the brand new houses, not the slightly used ones. You either have to be able to hold onto a house for awhile in a brand new area, or you have to hope that construction costs are going up to the point that you can make a profit selling your house at a slightly reduced price compared to the brand new houses (townhouses, apartments, whatever). The only other alternative is to have a house so well decorated that people fall in love with it and want only your house, no matter what else is available. I have a friend who moves a lot and her houses always sell for top dollar, because when people walk into them, they want to own them. Also we're only talking about a few thousand units in a city of over a million people. A very small percentage of people need to want to live downtown to create demand.

There's a wee bit of a gamble moving downtown, and with the downturn in the housing market, the gamble is a little higher. But, if you're way out in the suburbs, you also have to hope that gasoline prices don't price your location out of the market. Or, if it becomes extremely trendy to live near downtown, the suburbs might take a hit as well. I was told by someone I consider wise that you should consider your house your home, and not worry so much about making a fortune selling it. There are a lot of good reasons to move downtown, and if no one takes the chance we might as well accept that we're going to be good old boring suburban Oklahoma City.

It would be interesting to know the actual sales prices in some of these developments, especially from this point forward. Usually that's easy information to obtain but I doubt people have even closed on these units that are under contract.

I have the feeling there was some pent-up demand that was unleashed at the very beginning but it's pretty clear that has already slowed down. I bet you would have a lot of room to negotiate if you were a serious buyer.

Betts -- many home sellers these days are selling buyers or 80/20 mortgages which make that buyer almost dependent on the housing market continuing to climb so that they can refinance down the road and remove the "20" loan, thus removing the necessity to pay PMI. This is especially true for the young professional set who would seem best suited for this sort of housing since most young professionals are buying their first homes (when they get around to doing that).

I think the young professional niche is considerable, yet at these prices, attracting buyers who don't have daddy's checkbook open to them is going to be nearly impossible.

God help any of these young people who are considering buying in this area on an 80/20 with at least one of those mortgages being an ARM. On one hand, a buyer might not be expecting to cash in here, but they should also be wary of burying themselves in debt.

Betts, I disagree with your calling it a home rather than an investment. Any time I commit to pay anyone something in the six-figure range, I'm not expecting to be throwing any of that money down a hole. Most young buyers are putting their entire life savings into something like this, so taking a loss when it comes time to sell, to them isn't a very attractive option no matter how chic the location.

Not at the moment. I'll keep you posted.

In other news, I ran the number on Block 42 -- they're asking $215+ per square foot. Maywood Park is around $225+/sq. ft. Central Avenue Villas are $215+ per quare foot. The Lofts At Maywood Park, remember, the "low cost" option? Where most of the units are less than 1000 square feet?? They average around $225/square foot.

None of these properties are, in my opinion priced anywhere close to being realistic.

The Harvey Lofts? Not really anywhere close to Bricktown? Still about 10 blocks from the CBD, and in a pretty shady part of town? They're selling at the bargain basement price of around $177/square foot.

My theory is that right now, the supply is filling a niche market for real estate. Once that market it gone, it'll be gone. Also, the folks buying in are going to have an impossible time selling their homes for a profit when there is new construction going on all around them amid probably lower prices due to the elimination of those niche 'early adopters' and an overall greater supply of housing.

In short, buying in any of these additions at these prices right now is not a good move unless one doesn't really care about losing money.


can't speak for the other places but harvey lofts have sold for closer to 150/square foot then 177 ..

So I guess the recommendation is to let downtown housing sit empty and not take a chance on downtown Oklahoma City? That's not exactly going to inspire developers to build anything else. The entry level housing in a lot of other cities is the older neighborhoods close to downtown that have seen better days and need to be "gentrified". The people who live in the new construction are not entry level buyers, although they may be fairly young. I'm pretty sure the two Maywood brownstones that are closing soon are being bought by younger buyers.

I love the idea of living downtown. But several questions hang me up:

1. I'm not stocked up on food and I want to go pick up some groceries. Where do I go?

2. It's 11:30pm and I want a gallon of milk, where do I go?

3. It's 7:30 in the evening and I want to browse the magazines and books at Borders or Barnes & Noble or Books-A-Million - where do I go?

4. It's 2:30am and I wake up with a terrible cough. I need cough medicine. Where do I go?

5. I need a pair of casual pants and a new shirt for the weekend. Where do I go?

6. I want a new 50-pack of DVD-R's for my DVD recorder to record the football game. Where do I go?

7. Relatives come in from out of town and want to "go shopping downtown." Where do we go?

8. Many other examples.

The old, "You're so close to everything," doesn't play out in reality. Unless, of course, you spend a lot of time at Bricktown's bars and restaurants. But that gets old. The fact is, if you want to be, "close to everything," (unfortunately), you don't live downtown.

Don't flame me...but the answer to many of your questions is a downtown Walmart.

Don't flame me...but the answer to many of your questions is a downtown Walmart.

Especially for #7. That would be a real treat.

Haha...so true.

I said many, not all.

Supposedly, there will be a grocery store in the Flat Iron building when it is complete, although I doubt it will be open until 11 p.m. Supposedly there will be a CVS pharmacy on about 5th and Walnut soon. You can get to Penn Square Mall pretty quickly. I look at living downtown as being somewhat of a pioneer. Things are a little risky, some amenities are missing, but it's a great adventure with the potential to turn out really well. And I'm not a big bar person, but if I move (still working on my husband, who's slightly reluctant) I have my choice of three coffee shops within walking distance, I can walk to the movies, a Redhawks game, or bowling (soon). I can walk my dog on the sidewalks, or at the river. There are no sidewalks where I live now. I can watch the fireworks at the Redhawks stadium or on New Years from my fourth floor patio. Shopping needs to happen, but it will if the population density increases, as it appears to be ready to do.

I love the idea of living downtown. But several questions hang me up:

1. I'm not stocked up on food and I want to go pick up some groceries. Where do I go?

2. It's 11:30pm and I want a gallon of milk, where do I go?

3. It's 7:30 in the evening and I want to browse the magazines and books at Borders or Barnes & Noble or Books-A-Million - where do I go?

4. It's 2:30am and I wake up with a terrible cough. I need cough medicine. Where do I go?

5. I need a pair of casual pants and a new shirt for the weekend. Where do I go?

6. I want a new 50-pack of DVD-R's for my DVD recorder to record the football game. Where do I go?

7. Relatives come in from out of town and want to "go shopping downtown." Where do we go?

8. Many other examples.


From any point downtown, there are grocery stores and video stores a couple of miles away or less. There is a Homeland (with pharmacy) at 18th & Classen, a Walgreens & CVS at 23rd & Classen, Walmart Neighborhood Market and Buy for Less at 23rd & Penn.

Isn't there also a convenience store / gas station on Reno just east of Bricktown? And doesn't IHOP stay open 24 hours?

How is this any different than anywhere else in town? Most people have to drive a couple of miles -- if not more -- for all the things you mentioned.


And of course, people are just starting to move back into these areas and services/retail follow population. There are lots of plans in the works.

I agree with Malibu, you have to DRIVE several miles to do all these things anywhere else in the city. Living downtown right now is about being a pioneer. I am a downtown homeowner and I do most of these things just fine downtown or near downtown. Yes, we need more options downtown, no question about that, but it will all come in due time. Most developments haven't had residents move in yet. I predict next year Q2-Q4 we will start to see retail announcements if the economy stays decent.



I love the idea of living downtown. But several questions hang me up:

1. I'm not stocked up on food and I want to go pick up some groceries. Where do I go? Homeland or Cao Nguyen on Classen or Belle Isle Wal-Mart is only about 3 miles away

2. It's 11:30pm and I want a gallon of milk, where do I go? 7-11 on 10th and Western, Braums at 17th and Classen, or the gas station in Bricktown

3. It's 7:30 in the evening and I want to browse the magazines and books at Borders or Barnes & Noble or Books-A-Million - where do I go? Not sure how late Taylors News is open but we could use a large bookstore downtown now.

4. It's 2:30am and I wake up with a terrible cough. I need cough medicine. Where do I go? 7-11, gas station in Bricktown, Walgreens and CVS at 23rd and Classen

5. I need a pair of casual pants and a new shirt for the weekend. Where do I go? Lit Clothing in Deep Deuce, Claybourne's Haberdashery, Firefly (still need more clothing retail)

6. I want a new 50-pack of DVD-R's for my DVD recorder to record the football game. Where do I go? CD Warehouse in Automobile Alley

7. Relatives come in from out of town and want to "go shopping downtown." Where do we go? Lit, Firefly, CD Warehouse, Red Dirt Emporium

8. Many other examples.

The old, "You're so close to everything," doesn't play out in reality. Unless, of course, you spend a lot of time at Bricktown's bars and restaurants. But that gets old. The fact is, if you want to be, "close to everything," (unfortunately), you don't live downtown. Again, you'll have to drive to the mall, restaurants, etc. if you live in the suburbs, at least your within walking distance of many things downtown, not to mention amenities and events at Ford Center, AT&T Ballpark, Cox Center, Oklahoma River, Bricktown Canal, Myriad Gardens, Civic Center, Art Museum, etc.

I love the idea of living downtown. But several questions hang me up:

1. I'm not stocked up on food and I want to go pick up some groceries. Where do I go?

2. It's 11:30pm and I want a gallon of milk, where do I go?

3. It's 7:30 in the evening and I want to browse the magazines and books at Borders or Barnes & Noble or Books-A-Million - where do I go?

4. It's 2:30am and I wake up with a terrible cough. I need cough medicine. Where do I go?

5. I need a pair of casual pants and a new shirt for the weekend. Where do I go?

6. I want a new 50-pack of DVD-R's for my DVD recorder to record the football game. Where do I go?

7. Relatives come in from out of town and want to "go shopping downtown." Where do we go?

8. Many other examples.

The old, "You're so close to everything," doesn't play out in reality. Unless, of course, you spend a lot of time at Bricktown's bars and restaurants. But that gets old. The fact is, if you want to be, "close to everything," (unfortunately), you don't live downtown.


Your perceptions are warped.

Before I moved downtown I lived with my parents in Edmond. Here's some comparisons:

Closest interstate
Edmond: over 2 miles
Downtown: 4 blocks

Closest Convenient store
Edmond: 1.5 miles
Downtown: 4-5 blocks

Closest Walgreens/CVS
Edmond: 1.8 miles
Downtown: 2.3 miles

Closest Malls
Edmond: 13.2 miles to Quail
Downtown: 8.3 miles to Penn

Closest Bookstore
Edmond: 13.2 miles to Barnes & Noble or Books-a-Million
Downtown: 8.3 miles to Full Circle, 8.6 miles to Borders, 9.7 miles to Barnes & Noble

Closest Art Museum:
Edmond: 18.7 miles
Downtown: 1.5 blocks

Closest Major Performing Arts Venue
Edmond: 18.8 miles
Downtown: 2 blocks

Closest Movie Theatre
Edmond: 13.2 miles
Downtown: 8 blocks



You get the point.

Searching realtor.com today, I found a 2BD 2BA 1,400 sq. ft. condo at Classen Glenn (7th & Classen) for less than $55K.

Plus, plenty of smaller homes around The Paseo and even Mesta Park for $100K or not much more.

There seems to be plenty of housing options if you don't want to pay $200/sq. ft.

jbrown, i think some of your estimates are flawed, Penn Square Mall and 50 Penn Place (Full Circle Books) being more than 8 miles from downtown? I think its more like 5 or less if you live in west downtown.

I googlemapped it from my address at 200 N. Harvey, as well as my former address in east Edmond.

My perceptions are flawed? When people think of living "downtown" they think "URBAN." People are on here saying, "Everything is right there," and other expressions that would make you think our downtown is a true downtown with a big city urban vibe. Right now, and that's what I am talking about, it is only close to the entertainment district and some workplaces. (And a few retail shops that are precious few in number and very smallish footprints.)

Jbrown, Maybe the perceptions are flawed for YOU, but they aren't for ME. What does where YOU live have to do with anything?

Walgreen's & CVS - both less than one mile for me

Borders - 1.8 miles for me

Penn Square - 3 minutes from me

I could go on, but clearly, I could have just as easily lived across the street from Quail Springs and been less than a mile from all the things I mentioned in my earlier post. So, it's not a perception flaw, it's about where downtown Oklahoma City is TODAY. It is not perception, it is a FACT. My point was that urban atmospheres should be close to everything, but we have no retail to speak of at all in our downtown. We can pretend, make excuses about having to drive in the suburbs, talk about why it's the case, etc., but the fact is simple, my list cannot be answered by anybody that knows what true "urban" living is all about. It's not about the ability to get in your car and LEAVE downtown, no matter how close. That is the point, jBrown, we can do that in the burbs! An urban environment lets you leave that behind. And I don't consider 18th and Classen very close to "downtown" if I was living there and needed some groceries. (And, have you been in that Homeland lately?)

Urban downtown living SHOULD be about "everything being close." But right now, we have to talk in platitudes about being "pioneers" and such. My questions in that post cannot be answered in a satisfactory way for me and I would LOVE to live downtown. And those questions of mine don't have subjective answers if one doesn't want to leave downtown for the basics. The clear answer is that there ARE no options downtown without getting in your car and leaving it! I'm just not going to put on rose colored glasses and pretend it wouldn't be a headache getting to and from places a resident needs to be close to. Any comparisons with the suburbs don't fly, urban residential living should be different from the burbs and that's the point.

Sorry to ruffle feathers. What we have now is what we have, no need to "spin" it.

solitude, while I live/work downtown and definitely want all those things, you have to be realistic, until the number of residents goes up downtown, the amenities won't come. We've talked about the chicken and egg dilemma for years now. If it's true urban living you're wanting, perhaps Chicago, San Fran, Seattle, Portland or NYC will cater to your tastes? We don't yet have the population density of true urban cities.

Well you never said anything in that post about "where do I go on foot?" or "where do I go without leaving the CBD?". You are right. We have a few fast food locations and a few sit down restaurants and that it at this point at night. If you don't want to be a "pioneer", that's fine--others will take that lead. But your original post seemed to say that these things are not available anywhere near downtown, and that's not true.

Yes, right now you have to drive a little ways to reach some amenities as you do in the suburbs. The difference is that (as my post illustrates) a central location allows you to be closer to these things, unless you just happen to live right across the street from Quail Springs. If so, I'm not in the least bit jealous of your cookie-cutter apartments and insane traffic congestion. On top of that, you are right smack in the middle of THE place for entertainment in OKC. Downtown may not have shopping for your out of town guests, but it has everything else from live music, bars, clubs, cultural venues, restaurants, cafes, coffee shops, movie theatres, performing arts, comedy clubs, parks, and sports. And that's enough for those of us already living downtown.

And again, if we want to be like other cities and have true urban living, it takes people willing to be the first: to experience a little inconvenience and to take a risk on housing prices when the market isn't established, to understand that you need the population first and retail will follow. Otherwise, we can sit around and talk about how we wish OKC had the flavor of other, larger cities, but it will never happen.

And again, if we want to be like other cities and have true urban living, it takes people willing to be the first: to experience a little inconvenience and to take a risk on housing prices when the market isn't established, to understand that you need the population first and retail will follow. Otherwise, we can sit around and talk about how we wish OKC had the flavor of other, larger cities, but it will never happen.

And if you want to do that I think that's great! For some of us to shuck out the kind of cash required to be "pioneers" is more than a mere "inconvenience." For that kind of money, I can live in a real city and not pretend that Oklahoma City is something that it's not. As I said, I would LOVE to live downtown, but I have listed my problems. When it's time to lay out the cash for a downtown condo I can pretty much guess it won't be in OKC, as much as I love it here. We're more than downtown and as a whole, it's a great city. I do miss a real urban vibe, though. The entertainment district is nice, but you know what I mean. Please understand, it's not a criticism. Everybody seems to be taking my list of problems of my living downtown as criticism. It's not. It's just a list of things I would need before making that kind of personal investment. It's just reality. It's where we are. It's a catch-22 as well, I understand that. But I won't be gambling with my future in hopes that if I come, they will build it. By that time, it may be too late and we only get one shot at this.

Let's be honest, even some of the biggest boosters of this city on OKCTalk don't even live here!
Hot Rod is in Seattle
The owner of the board (MalibuSooner) is in California
Kerry is in Jacksonville
There are many others that post here regularly in Houston, St. Louis, Chicago.
It's okay to love a city and live elsewhere for whatever reasons. I may have to do that as well.

solitude, your points are well taken.

But I think there is a way to get a bit of an urban vibe in OKC without taking a huge financial gamble. There are plenty of reasonable places in Midtown/Paseo/Mesta Park. And that area offers as much of an urban lifestyle (some local restaurants, art galleries, etc.) as you are going to find in Oklahoma at this point.

Right now, OKC can't compete with lots of cities that have a pretty big head start in new urbanism. But if you are creative in your search you can have a lot of what you want for a lot less than Dallas or elsewhere.

And you also know most of the things on your wish list are going to start to materialize in the near future.

I love the idea of living downtown. But several questions hang me up:

1. I'm not stocked up on food and I want to go pick up some groceries. Where do I go?

2. It's 11:30pm and I want a gallon of milk, where do I go?

3. It's 7:30 in the evening and I want to browse the magazines and books at Borders or Barnes & Noble or Books-A-Million - where do I go?

4. It's 2:30am and I wake up with a terrible cough. I need cough medicine. Where do I go?

5. I need a pair of casual pants and a new shirt for the weekend. Where do I go?

6. I want a new 50-pack of DVD-R's for my DVD recorder to record the football game. Where do I go?

7. Relatives come in from out of town and want to "go shopping downtown." Where do we go?

8. Many other examples.

The old, "You're so close to everything," doesn't play out in reality. Unless, of course, you spend a lot of time at Bricktown's bars and restaurants. But that gets old. The fact is, if you want to be, "close to everything," (unfortunately), you don't live downtown.

These are all good points and one of the big negatives in my opinion. I've been thinking about moving downtown and here is what I have found with respect to your questions....

1. You could go up to 23rd street, which is kind of scary at night, or you could hop onto I-40 and go into Del City where there's a big Crest Foods. I think DC is about 10 minutes away and 23rd is closer to 15.

2. There's a convenience store at I-35 and Reno. Very close.

3. Unfortunately you'll have to drive up to Memorial, down to Ed Noble in Norman, or over to 63rd and May. 15-20 minute drive for about all.

4. I think the nearest CVS is either the one over on 23rd Street or one in MWC/DC.

5. Penn Square is probably the closest nice mall, although Crossroads is the closest mall.

6. Best Buy at I-35 and I-240, about 5-10 minutes south.

7. Dallas maybe? Good thing they didn't specify which downtown!

Some of it isn't as bad as you would think, but in most cases you would have to drive out a ways to get to civilization.

In response to the hope that the prices would start to level out now because of the lack of demand and market...

I signed a contract with a deep deuce development in the spring of 2006 for a $207,000 unit. I held on for a year, naively believing the completion dates, but when the out in our contract came around in the spring of 2007...we decided to back out and get our earnest money back. I just checked the website...and our unit is now listed for over $280,000!. There were 7 units 'sold' when we signed on...and now there are 4.

I completely miss living downtown now...and hope that the development continues...but this is kind of crazy. Also crazy is the fact that since the out in our contract we build a house twice the size, with all of the modern/sleek amenities, for less than our original unit. And we are living there now. But...I do miss walking to Bricktown!

Why all the secrecy. Which development was it, walnut?

I noticed the website for the Maywood Park brownstones originally listed prices as low as $400,000, but there are none now for less than $570,000. I don't know what will happen, as it's not as if there is a lot of land available for development downtown, in contrast to the suburbs. Will demand cause prices to increase, or will there be insufficient demand, and prices will fall? Building costs certainly aren't going to go down. You can't buy a new house in Nichols Hills for less than that, however, as that's about the price of a lot.

I learned of a yet-to-be announced smaller real estate transaction that will involve more affordable housing as well as a potential high rise residential tower from a prominent downtown property owner that should be announced within the next 1-3 years.

FYI--The Central Ave. Villas finally started going vertical last week. Looks like most of floor 1 (above underground parking garage) is up now. The Hill at Bricktown (which is actually in Deep Deuce, not Bricktown) has started construction on the second stories of a few units. Block 42 is wrapping up the last bit of exterior construction and should have some residents moved in by mid-December.

Solitude, i agree with you 100%. The fact is, OKC is not a remotely desirable urban destination with the exception of a very few amenities (of course speaking about a true urban connoisseur.) If it weren't for the Portlands, Seattles, Austins, Denvers of this country then i would be more supportive of jump starting OKC's urban renaissance, but that's not reality. The framework has already been established in so many other places (not to mention the thousands of other likeminded city lovers who flocked there from their non-progressive hometown)
There's two types of urban enthusiasts: The loyal supporters who stick it out with their city through thick & thin no matter how behind their city compares
& those that have a criteria for their ultimate city with no exceptions being made.
Neither one is inferior to the other, however, i will admit that i have respect for the urban pioneers that kick off a city's forward progression & i really root for OKC becoming a more vibrant city in the near future.

Okay, so there's plenty of urban cities, so we should just give up on that concept????

Okay, so there's plenty of urban cities, so we should just give up on that concept????

Agreed. I lived in Denver when urban was a few downtown hotels and Larimer Square. It was not THAT long ago. Should those of us who dream of urban living just move on?

I'd like to think we can look at other cities and emulate the things we like best, but make downtown uniquely our own. The plans I've seen in Core to Shore do that, and I'm strongly in favor of creaing our own urban design.

Agreed. I lived in Denver when urban was a few downtown hotels and Larimer Square. It was not THAT long ago. Should those of us who dream of urban living just move on?

I'd like to think we can look at other cities and emulate the things we like best, but make downtown uniquely our own. The plans I've seen in Core to Shore do that, and I'm strongly in favor of creaing our own urban design.

When I got to Denver, LoDo was hoppin'. That was THE place to be on the weekends. I also knew a TON of people that lived down there. I couldn't afford it on my military salary, but it was a great place to party. And that's coming from a guy who's not an "urban" kind of person or from somebody who liked Denver. I really didn't care for the place much.