Monday, July 02, 2007 3:10:31 PM OKCBusiness Article

OKC developer says Crown Heights will not neighbor a Wal-Mart

Grant Humphreys.
http://www.okcbusiness.com/images/photos/Grant-Humphreys-188.jpg
Photo/Mark Hancock
Heidi Rambo Centrella
7/2/2007



In the wake of rumors regarding a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market moving in next door to a well established residential neighborhood, developer Grant Humphries assures that is not the case for the northwest corner of Interstate 235 and NW 36 Street.
However, Humphreys Real Estate Investment group does plan for “a Whole Foods or an HEB Central Market or a Wild Oats or something of that caliber that is not in the market presently,” along with retail and residential development. Humphreys said the intent is for the area to service not only the surrounding neighborhoods, but also downtown residents.

“It can service the downtown (area), but it doesn’t ruin the downtown block grid by bringing kind of a suburban-style grocery product into a small block system,” he said. “Our hope is that we can keep the downtown (clientele) with more urban land use with a smaller market…and keep the surface parking and the large, big-box just outside of downtown where it’s still just about four minutes from a lot of the development you’re seeing in the Flat Iron area.”

In addition to promising a Wal-Mart will not happen, Humphreys -- an Edgemere Park resident -- says he plans to involve Crown Heights and Edgemere Park neighborhood associations and be “real open-book” with them.

According to the conceptual site plan, the grocery store would encompass 60,000 square feet, surrounded by surface parking. The multi-family structure would encompass 72,000 square feet, and the office/retail space would encompass 42,000 square feet.

“The contract has been approved by the congregation and the executive board at the church (First Christian Church at NW 36 Street and Walker Avenue),” Humphreys said, adding they are still negotiating a few terms. “I think both Crown Heights and Edgemere Park (residents), as well, will like what we have.”

Humphreys anticipates having everything put together within the next two weeks, and expects to close on the land in 2008. Due diligence should take the rest of this calendar year, he said.

Other potential plans for the area include a coffee shop and a restaurant on the ground floor of a two- to three-floor office building, as well as the higher-end housing.

“On the residential side, I’m trying to get away from any more surface parking and trying to look at a way that we can hide some of the parking, possibly structured parking with a residential façade, possibly with some ground-floor retail,” he said.

Humphreys said he does not believe traffic to the area would disturb the surrounding neighborhoods, especially once the Oklahoma Department of Transportation finishes its reworking of the I-235/NW 36 Street interchange, which is scheduled to be complete in 500 days.

Grant Humphreys is really on the ball.

That is a great location for a specialty grocer. It's very similar to the area where Tulsa's Whole Foods is located. You've got downtown, Crown Heights, Heritage Hills, and Nichols Hills all within a 5 minute drive.


I can't say I ever noticed there was room for development on that corner.

Me neither, but that's a very inetersting concept and, honestly, a really good place to do it. It's safer than downtown (economically, that is), as there are several established neighborhoods nearby that are underserved, but with the freeway right there it certainly can serve downtown if and when it flurishes. I still think downtown will need some grocery with pedestrian access, which is what urban living is all about, however, it could be supplemental to this development and may make a lot of sense.

As a resident of the area, it kind of makes me nervous and I probably won't relax until a lease is actually in place. However, with humphries being a resident of Edgemere Park, he's going to have to look at it everyday as well, so that at least mitigates fear of it being ugly...

Yeah, that makes sense for the first specialty market in the area.

If and when it does well and as downtown continues to fill in, then it would be time for another market in the urban core.

How are they going to get the proposed grocers in that location without the ability to sell liquor in the store??

This has been addressed before and I believe it is the main reason that keeps said grocers out of Okc.

^ the same way Tulsa has theirs.

Tulsa has a Wild Oats, and I believe that Wild Oats is not looking to expand due to financial problems in the company. That would leave Okc with either a Whole Foods or the HEB, neither are building stores without the liquor sales.

That may be true, but I believe that Kansas, Missouri, Colorado, Utah and Minnesota have 3.2 laws that restrict alcohol sales in some way, shape, or fashion as well. Kansas, Minnesota, Colorado, and Missouri all have several Whole Foods locations. I think even New York restricts the sale of wine in grocery stores. That may have changed.

HEB, I believe, is only in Texas, so I'm not sure if they have aversion to non-wine selling locations or not.

In any event, Whole Foods has built stores in areas that restrict their liquor sales. Now, they may have learned a lesson and stopped entering any new markets that limit what products they can sell, but it's not without precedence.

Tulsa has a Wild Oats, and I believe that Wild Oats is not looking to expand due to financial problems in the company. That would leave Okc with either a Whole Foods or the HEB, neither are building stores without the liquor sales.

Whole Foods bought out Wild Oats, and the Tulsa location will become a Whole Foods.

Okay, so the rumor I heard was that Whole Foods won't come to OKC because the education level is too low, and they cater to a more educated market.

Just the rumor I heard from a person who works in restaurants.

I've never heard that one bandnerd. Only the liquor law was the official email I received from Whole Foods. I think the education thing would be a lawsuit waiting to happen.

From the Whole Foods Market web site page - real estate (http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/realestate/index.html):

f you have a retail location you think would make a good site for Whole Foods Market, Inc., please review the following guidelines carefully for consideration:

* 200,000 people or more in a 20 minute drive time
* 40,000–75,000 Square Feet
* Large number of college-educated residents
* Abundant parking available for our exclusive use
* Stand alone preferred, would consider complementary
* Easy access from roadways, lighted intersection
* Excellent visibility, directly off of the street
* Must be located in a high traffic area (foot and/or vehicle)

The WF/WO merger is being fought by Congress right now, so may not happen, and if it does, it will be several years since the acqusition will be tied up in the courts for some time. I believe there are other threads discussing this topic.

Most demographers and developers I know (including an uncle in Dallas who specializes in retail development demographics) would say that the two primary location factors are: 1) population density and 2) income level. Education plays a role in that it can affect income level, but as a stand-alone factor, it is not ranked as high.

That being said, if this is a strong criteria for WF, surely Norman or Edmond would be worth a look to them.

I still think we'll get one in the long-run, just not as soon as we'd like to think. Our current liquor laws are as much of an impediment to this type of development
as our population density and income factors.

The WF/WO merger is being fought by Congress right now, so may not happen, and if it does, it will be several years since the acqusition will be tied up in the courts for some time. I believe there are other threads discussing this topic.

Most demographers and developers I know (including an uncle in Dallas who specializes in retail development demographics) would say that the two primary location factors are: 1) population density and 2) income level. Education plays a role in that it can affect income level, but as a stand-alone factor, it is not ranked as high.

That being said, if this is a strong criteria for WF, surely Norman or Edmond would be worth a look to them.

I still think we'll get one in the long-run, just not as soon as we'd like to think. Our current liquor laws are as much of an impediment to this type of development as our population density and income factors.

I thought I heard an official announcement of Tulsa's Wild Oats being rebranded.

* 200,000 people or more in a 20 minute drive time
* 40,000–75,000 Square Feet
* Large number of college-educated residents
* Abundant parking available for our exclusive use
* Stand alone preferred, would consider complementary
* Easy access from roadways, lighted intersection
* Excellent visibility, directly off of the street
* Must be located in a high traffic area (foot and/or vehicle)

This is interesting. I think density is always a problem for Oklahoma City, so it's interesting to see how they define their density requirements. 200k within 20 minutes is easily reached in the Oklahoma City area, however that kind of depends on how that 20 minutes is calculated. Is it derived from real sample numbers or is it calulated by distance and speed limit? Is it calculated with commute delays considered or just raw distance numbers?

You can get to Edmond in under 20 minutes most of the time from that location and Norman is doable without traffic and a bit of a lead foot. This greatly increases both the density and the number of college graduates (who knows what they consider a "large" number and if it is based on a percentage or gross). Realistically, Edmond seems to be more a part of the equation than Norman, but I-235 is also a major commuter corrider for Edmonites and some Normanites who work in the city could access it easily before or after work. The question is, do those shoppers want more than their current Super Tagets and Mega Wal-Marts provide?

I think the location meets every other criterion at face value if the consider the I-235 traffic in the equation. There's certainly room for a grocery store in that area, whether or not it's a Whole Foods type store is the only question in my mind. It's not a slam dunk on paper. We'll just have to see if the developer is capable of making them understand the market as it qualifies for their criteria. If you pull out a demographic map, the numbers may not be there. Someone has to show them how accessible every corner of the city really is by just about all of its residents. 20 miles in OKC is not even close to the same thing as 20 miles in most cities of its size in terms of time and willingness to travel that distance.

Whole Foods will be a destination, so those suburbanites will come there for that reason as well as for the products available in the store.

As for the 20 minute calculation, it is that - 20 minutes. There is no special formula. If your city has traffic, then 20 minutes. If your city does not, then 20 minutes.

Obviously, 20 minutes in OKC would take in a huge section of the city - an obvious advantage! And as for density, OKC leaders need to do two things:

1) chalk up the density of the urbanized area, which is almost 3,000 people per sq mile. This is MORE THAN dense enough for retailers who use the density criterion. And obviously, the city would need to chalk up its access which is probably the best for any large metropolitan city.

2) re-think the boundaries of the city limits. Is it a diminishing margin to have such a large city limit area with this being used as a major criterion for development? Surely, if the city were to trim off the fat/rural areas that would improve overall city density as well as making the city more "EFFICIENT". We should focus our city dollars and efforts on the existing urbanized areas and not be forced to provide infrastructure and services to areas with 10 people per square mile.

I understand the argument about the city being hemmed in by suburbs or the need to protect the watershed, but there are ways to mitigate these factors. As for the first point, this is a NO issue for OKC. In fact, in most rural areas there's no suburbs in sight. The city could easily de-annex 200 square miles yet still have enough area for growth, economic realization, and protect the watershed.

For the second point, we need to increase the responsibility of ACOG. They are the regional authority but they have very limited power. We should put them in-charge of the watershed, along with regional transportation and other regional issues. ACOG should be the "steward" of water in OKC - of course the city would still manage it but ACOG along with County and City governments could protect and enforce the rule of law.

I am sick and tired of these retailers using OKC's disadvantages as excuses for why not to come here. But even moreso, I am sick and tired of OKC just sitting back and allowing it to happen in the first place. It is TIME for the city to thoroughly re-evaluate itself as a city. We could slit off 200 square miles and still have a population of 540,000 (as the 200 sq mi only has 5,000 people or so, a ridiculous 25 people per sq mile and less).

I'm not sure anyone can sue a company for choosing its demographic. You don't see Dean and Deluca on the Northeast side, now do you?

But we might have to wait for an answer from someone who specializes in that area more than I.

I think the education thing would be a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Really? How so? We can sue a business and force them to relocate here? Neat. Why hasn't this been tried before?

That may be true, but I believe that Kansas, Missouri, Colorado, Utah and Minnesota have 3.2 laws that restrict alcohol sales in some way, shape, or fashion as well.

I can assure you that Missouri has no such restrictions. Matter of fact, I was so used to buying liquor at the grocery store that I naively asked the checkout lady at the Consumers IGA at NWE and Rockwell (this was in 1990 mind you) where the liquor department was. She asked me how long I'd lived in Oklahoma and when I told her three days she laughed and said "that figures" and then explained the whole "state store" concept and the 3.2 rule.

Okay, back on topic. . . It seems to me that Whole Foods would have no problem establishing a successful store in OKC without the need for a liquor department. Unlike Trader Joes (which devotes about 1/5 of their floor space to wine), Whole Foods' major hook (from what I've seen in our single STL store) is the fresh and prepared foods department. I can't imagine that the WF business plan is so hard-wired to liquor sales that the notion of a "dry store" in an up and coming market like OKC would be impossible.

3.2 beer is sold in Missouri. What type of restrictions or laws are in place based on the "nonintoxicating" drink, I do not know. Do they sell it on Sundays?

As for the 20 minute calculation, it is that - 20 minutes. There is no special formula. If your city has traffic, then 20 minutes. If your city does not, then 20 minutes.

So is there a guy at their company that comes and drives 20 minutes in every direction to establish the geographical basis for their 200k population requirement? Are there maps, possibly like topographical maps, that show you how far you can travel in X amount of time from a given point (that would be cool) at a certain time of day.

I’m not trying to be a smart ass (ok, maybe a little), but seriously, how do they determine the area covered in 20 minutes. I know in LA I can go maybe 2 miles down Santa Monica Blvd at 5:15 in 20 minutes. At 8pm, I can probably go 8 miles. I can even guess how many more residents I pass in that extra 6 miles, but I know it’s a lot. It may be less dramatic in OKC, but I-235 and 36th is actually a bottle neck at commute times where time to distance travelled varies greatly. (Actually, this could be a selling point... people will wait out the commute at the store instead on on the highway...)

3.2 beer is sold in Missouri. What type of restrictions or laws are in place based on the "nonintoxicating" drink, I do not know. Do they sell it on Sundays?

I live in Missouri and I can tell you that every grocery store has a large selection of all kinds of wine, beer and hard liquor. Most beer that you buy up here is 5% or 6%. Yes, you can buy it on Sunday.

Most beer that you buy up here is 5% or 6%.

I assume you mean by volume.

Sorry for the confusion. In researching liquor laws I found several sources that listed the above states as selling 3.2 beer, including Missouri. It is very possible that they are outdated, all referenced the incorrect source, or that Missouri sells 3.2 beer as an alternative to some of the makers' regular brews (which would be weird because there is not much difference between the regular batches and 3.2 beer amongst the makers that typically produce a 3.2 brew).

Anyway, forget Missouri. Colorado has Whole Foods and they have 3.2 grocery store laws.... right?

I'm calling BS on liquor laws causing a grocer to not invest in an up-and-coming market.

I suspect a better model for downtown initially is something more like Petty's in Tulsa at Utica Sqare and that will only be after there is more people actually living downtown.

Grocery business is tough all over and especially tough in Oklahoma. Wal-mart is a serious competitor. And Super Targets are not insignificant. Consider the inability to sell alcohol, the relative market size, distribution issues, and the fact that there are other easier, more profitable opportunities elsewhere and the retailer's conclusion is easily understood.

Still eventually the metropolitan area will get a Whole Foods or something similar but even then I would be surprised if it was located downtown.

Today, a realtor friend told me that it is a Wild Oats going in at this location. He seemed pretty convinced it was going to happen, but still just a rumor. I haven't been to Tulsa lately, so don't know if they're going to keep their Wild Oats designation or whether they're going to be rebranded Whole Foods. You can e-mail them and let them know there's interest in a store here at:

http://www.wildoats.com/u/contact/

Wild Oats and Whole Foods are now one and the same:

Whole Foods closes Wild Oats acquisition - Aug. 28, 2007 (http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/28/news/companies/wholefoods_oats.reut/index.htm)