Except you can't ignore that fact. The area around where a commercial district is, does impact the likelihood of customers going there and it's longevity. I wasn't ignoring anything. I just said it had no bearing at all on me. I don't pretend to know how other people felt.

Would be a great spot for the new jail.

Respectfully, no. Its way too valuable a property and way too prominent for okcs image.

Just noticed today that "AMC Classic Crossroads" has permanently closed; I know it was open a month ago so not exactly sure when it was shuttered:

https://www.amctheatres.com/amc-classic-crossroads-16-closed

So many memories of seeing movies there. Saw all 3 LOTR premiers there. Just kinda crazy. AMC didn't really do much to keep it modern or profitable, and the mall dying really hurt it, as well.

So much fanfare when it opened.

Respectfully, no. Its way too valuable a property and way too prominent for okcs image.

Why do so many think this is such a valuable location? The market doesn’t agree,

Just noticed today that "AMC Classic Crossroads" has permanently closed; I know it was open a month ago so not exactly sure when it was shuttered:

https://www.amctheatres.com/amc-classic-crossroads-16-closed

I posted about it 10 days ago which is what brought this thread back up and got people arguing, lol


The AMC Crossroads 16 has permanently closed according to the AMC website.

Pretty sure it had just closed at that point, but I don't a specific day.

I posted about it 10 days ago which is what brought this thread back up and got people arguing, l

Pretty sure it had just closed at that point, but I don't a specific day.

Thanks for posting that -- apologies for missing it.

Just a reminder for folks who just blindly post "tear the thing down"...

Crossroads has a complicated legal ownership. The former Wards and John A Browns/Sanger Harris/Macy's parcels are I dependently owned from the rest of the mall, and are now permanent homes for two Santa Fe charter schools. They're not going anywhere. So they're not going to randomly just "bulldoze" the entire place.

I never did hear any more from the last round of grifters that came in under the notion of reopening the place, although I think most (?) of the presumptive tenants got their money back (?).

^

The new owner of the mall owns the south and west department stores as well.

The east and north former department stores are under separate ownership.

But they could still bulldoze the majority of it and leave those structures intact. They do not share infrastructure, so wall of that doorway to the mall and you're done.

Santa Fe South has plenty of room there for sure, and very little incentive to sell/move. So I agree, i do not think that they will be going anywhere. But that does not mean that the rest of the structure couldn't go. Who knows, maybe someone else will decide to develop something and then offer to build SFS a new home on the land, so it can also go.

The new mall owner from Salt Lake City owns everything outlined in red. He paid a total of $6.5 million in May of 2021.

The east and north department stores and related parking lots are owned by Santa Fe Charter Schools (shown in blue). The outlying parcels have a variety of different owners.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/crossroads012224b.jpg

That's over 75% of the property, but no one wants ro do anything with it and demolishing costs money so until roofs start collapsing it will just sit there along with the other empty structures in that area.

Looked all around last weekend and didn't see any signs of life.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/crossroads033124a.jpg

Wonder why they paid so much and do nothing with it. Seems like it was a huge waste of money.

Looked all around last weekend and didn't see any signs of life.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/crossroads033124a.jpg

Project appears dead. They left that in a state where the wood will get quickly destroyed by water. They would have to strip it back down to the steel frame.

Well that was a dumb idea to start with. Didn't take much to see that it was going nowhere. Is it going to be a hispanic market or an asian one? Ah, neither ok. Instead, a rotting pile of crap. Gotcha.

I wonder if there's any appetite for the city to pursue it. Solar farm?

Well that was a dumb idea to start with. Didn't take much to see that it was going nowhere. Is it going to be a hispanic market or an asian one? Ah, neither ok. Instead, a rotting pile of crap. Gotcha.

I wonder if there's any appetite for the city to pursue it. Solar farm?

I see it eventually being redeveloped in 5 to 10 years once interchange is done. There is a lot of development to the east along I-240 so I think crossroads may become a better investment at some point.

In today's City Council meeing, Councilmember metioned a proposal for a housing/mixed use development in the parking area of Crossroads. I didn't hear who was proposing this or how serious it is. Does anyone of any information on this proposal?

The biggest unrealized potential for this property is a transit-oriented mixed-use development to take over the mall and outparcels... but for that to happen, it'll require the proposed Edmond-OKC-Norman commuter rail line to actually happen too. But a nice commuter rail station combined with housing, retail, and commercial development here would be a *massive* game changer for the south side, imo.

The biggest unrealized potential for this property is a transit-oriented mixed-use development to take over the mall and outparcels... but for that to happen, it'll require the proposed Edmond-OKC-Norman commuter rail line to actually happen too. But a nice commuter rail station combined with housing, retail, and commercial development here would be a *massive* game changer for the south side, imo.

You would have to have demand for commercial development. In my small opinion, it seems it would make an incredible site for a distribution center or manufacturing facility.

You would have to have demand for commercial development. In my small opinion, it seems it would make an incredible site for a distribution center or manufacturing facility.

The demand would be contingent upon the commuter rail station, to be honest. I have doubts that any of that would be truly feasible without the commuter rail line.

The other option? Knock it all down and let's put an IKEA there! (Mostly joking. Mostly.)

At this point, Crossroads Mall would be a great site for the new jail.

Just buy out the private school and find a nice place for them to relocate.

I agree that it should go industrial. Not much demand for retail in that area. Now something that brings in jobs would be good for the area. Jobs might be a spark for small restaurants/fast food places. Which again means more jobs.

Aquarium? lol

i went to crossroads today and one of the shop owners claimed that the charter school recently purchased the rest of the mall... i don't see any changes on the assessor's page, so i'm not certain how accurate that is.

One can only hope this site will be utilized like this... (I know......it's a pipe dream)

https://x.com/the_transit_guy/status/1787202077501915621

All it takes is money.

It also takes the demographics to make it work. I don't think that area has the demographics. Would thousands of people pay a premium to live on that parcel? Even if cleaned up? The best shot for this kind of thing on the south side is/was University Town Center. A more modest version could maybe find traction in the Westmoore area.

Residential? Frankly, no. It's in the OKCPS district and Dove is the only thing nearby even remotely close as an alternative. Dove seems to rank extremely well, don't get me wrong. But you also have to drive to various parts of the city to get to the various levels of school (elementary, middle, high). And the HS is not there, while Santa Fe South is. But that is NOT the same thing since it regularly gets a D on the state grade website. If I'm someone with children, that's not going to be where I am going to rent. Especially considering I can drive just a couple of miles and be in the Moore district.

I don't want to sound like a complete jerk because there are plenty of areas that attend Grant that are still lovely and well kept. Hard working families that keep things up and do their best. And OKCPS has done a lot of work over the last 20 years to get graduation rates there up, including sending more kids to college or trade schools. But that's still not an apples to apples comparison to the neighboring districts. In NW OKC you see areas where people simply send their kids to private school instead (MSM/McGuiness/Heritage Hall/Cassady/etc) if they can afford it. There really aren't options like that on the south side of OKC to serve this area.

It's a bit of an oversimplification, but schools are a big factor for residential construction. If the schools aren't good (or at least regarded in a good light), then you've got a MUCH harder product to sell. Or you have to have a target audience that simply won't make use. Say, seniors or young adults that don't want kids or are looking for that early childhood home before they go to school.

Residential? Frankly, no. It's in the OKCPS district and Dove is the only thing nearby even remotely close as an alternative. Dove seems to rank extremely well, don't get me wrong. But you also have to drive to various parts of the city to get to the various levels of school (elementary, middle, high). And the HS is not there, while Santa Fe South is. But that is NOT the same thing since it regularly gets a D on the state grade website. If I'm someone with children, that's not going to be where I am going to rent. Especially considering I can drive just a couple of miles and be in the Moore district.

I don't want to sound like a complete jerk because there are plenty of areas that attend Grant that are still lovely and well kept. Hard working families that keep things up and do their best. And OKCPS has done a lot of work over the last 20 years to get graduation rates there up, including sending more kids to college or trade schools. But that's still not an apples to apples comparison to the neighboring districts. In NW OKC you see areas where people simply send their kids to private school instead (MSM/McGuiness/Heritage Hall/Cassady/etc) if they can afford it. There really aren't options like that on the south side of OKC to serve this area.

It's a bit of an oversimplification, but schools are a big factor for residential construction. If the schools aren't good (or at least regarded in a good light), then you've got a MUCH harder product to sell. Or you have to have a target audience that simply won't make use. Say, seniors or young adults that don't want kids or are looking for that early childhood home before they go to school.

In NW OKC you see areas where people simply send their kids to private school instead (MSM/McGuiness/Heritage Hall/Cassady/etc) if they can afford it. There really aren't options like that on the south side of OKC to serve this area.



I assume by MSM you are referring to Mt Saint Mary. MSM is a southside school (approx SW 29th and Western) and a lot of their student base comes from the south side, Mid Del, Moore and Norman. Most catholic kids coming out of the northside lower grade schools head to Bishop. I agree that options are limited on the southside. The only really big private school is Community Christian School in Norman but there are a half dozen smaller private religious schools in the south side but basically are in Moore. We do need more high quality charter schools though.

The plans for R&F Mart in the former JC Penneys have been 'terminated' according to new plans recently filed.

The entire facility will be converted into storage.

Dove Charter Schools plans to convert the old AMC theater into a middle and high school. They operate an elementary school very nearby; it's the rectangular building in the lower left corner of the last image.

That would be two very large charter schools just a few hundred yards apart.

Whoever is behind Dove is spending millions on this facility and the one planned for the old Hertz HQ.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dove012025a.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dove012025b.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dove012025c.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dove012025d.jpg

Whoever is behind Dove is spending millions on this facility and the one planned for the old Hertz HQ.

[/center]

This is not meant to be a dig or anything at Dove. Nor is it meant to be conspiracy-minded. I met a teacher from there once and he was a delightful fellow and I believe that Dove does good work.

But about the money. Dove is associated with the Gulen movement, which does indeed have deep pockets. I will just leave the link to the wiki here for anyone who wants to fall into a rabbit hole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement

This is not meant to be a dig or anything at Dove. Nor is it meant to be conspiracy-minded. I met a teacher from there once and he was a delightful fellow and I believe that Dove does good work.

But about the money. Dove is associated with the Gulen movement, which does indeed have deep pockets. I will just leave the link to the wiki here for anyone who wants to fall into a rabbit hole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement

Not saying I don't believe you, but is the connection with Gulen documented or a rumor?

Not saying I don't believe you, but is the connection with Gulen documented or a rumor?

The attorney for Dove has confirmed it:


Past reports have suggested possible ties between Dove Charter Schools, Harmony Public Schools and the Gulen movement, an international movement with millions of followers that promotes education and teachings of peace and interfaith respect preached by Fethullah Gulen, an Islamic Turkish scholar.

Edmondson said he believes there is a connection between the charter schools and the Gulen movement. “I think they acknowledge that,” he said.

https://www.swtimes.com/story/news/state/2016/03/18/attorney-for-oklahoma-charter-schools/26313271007/

Crossroads becoming more and more of an education hub, could be worse uses for the overall area.

Not saying I don't believe you, but is the connection with Gulen documented or a rumor?

There's a lot to find about it on the internet. A lot of it VERY biased unfortunately. But the gist is the same.

Hell, when Melania Trump visited a Dove school in Tulsa it kicked off an international incident with the Turks:
https://www.educationnext.org/news-first-lady-watched-school-kids-coloring-tulsa-turks-saw-links-terrorism/

The main issue with Gulen is that his followers are the enemy of the current Turkish regime, so they pump out a lot of propaganda against anything he's behind.

Remember when the Thunder center Enes Kanter was embroiled in a bunch of hate from Turkey? He is like-minded with Gulen and even wanted to open his own charter school in OKC.


Kanter, who is Turkish, has been an outspoken critic of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and has been a supporter of Fethullah Gulen, an opponent of Erdogan’s government who preaches a moderate form of Sunni Islam.

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/former-thunder-player-seeks-to-open-charter-school-in-oklahoma-city/

Even if it is, i dont think that the ideology is pushed at all. I know someone that taught at the elementary and another person that taught at the high school, and they both had students there too. We've talked quite a bit about how it compares to their both now public school districts and the pros/cons of both situations. Nothing like any sort of doctrine from Islam, or any religion for that matter, ever really came up.

I dont think you can do that and be a charter school. You do that, you lose the status and become a private school. You can still be non-profit, but you won't be able to be tied to the public school system.

Even if it is, i dont think that the ideology is pushed at all. I know someone that taught at the elementary and another person that taught at the high school, and they both had students there too. We've talked quite a bit about how it compares to their both now public school districts and the pros/cons of both situations. Nothing like any sort of doctrine from Islam, or any religion for that matter, ever really came up.

I dont think you can do that and be a charter school. You do that, you lose the status and become a private school. You can still be non-profit, but you won't be able to be tied to the public school system.

Its the money we have to worry about. But hopefully, with the whole Epic Charter Schools fiasco all charter schools are watched a little bit better? As a parent, I would be questing a little bit more where the money is going whenever 'donations' are being requested.

There will basically be no windows in that school. How depressing

There will basically be no windows in that school. How depressing

That's actually more common these days. With the school security situation the way it is now, windows are not a good thing. Moore schools mostly dont have any windows and haven't for over 30 years.