Regarding one of Spartan's points, a first run theater in Capitol Hill area: Is that truly feasible at this point?
Harkins is a very short distance to the north, and has a lot of ancillary to-dos via BT. Warren is top notch as a venue and is only a short hop to the south.
Unless Harkins has really gone downhill, I'm finding it difficult to envision what could located in between that would draw market share from either existing theater complex.

if you were to actually look at the crime statistics for these two areas, i think you'd be surprised... -M

Because what passes for crime in the PSM area is different then what passes for crime around CR.

because what passes for crime in the psm area is different then what passes for crime around cr.

oh... i get it. assault & battery around psm isn't really assault & battery. burglary around psm isn't really burglary. -M

oh... i get it. assault & battery around psm isn't really assault & battery. burglary around psm isn't really burglary. -M

I had two palm trees stolen from my yard when our house was constructed. I contacted the police. If someone in the Gulfaire section of Jacksonville reported a 'landscaping crime' they would be laughed at by the police. Some segments of our population are much more tolderable of crime and criminals rarely call the cops on other criminals. That is all I am saying.

some segments of our population are much more tolerable of crime and criminals rarely call the cops on other criminals.

granted... but that tolerance is certainly going to vary depending on the crime. besides... i'd still say that statistics indicate that more crimes are committed in the vicinity of psm even if you assume that crimes are underreported in the cr area.

-M

Regarding one of Spartan's points, a first run theater in Capitol Hill area: Is that truly feasible at this point?
Harkins is a very short distance to the north, and has a lot of ancillary to-dos via BT. Warren is top notch as a venue and is only a short hop to the south.
Unless Harkins has really gone downhill, I'm finding it difficult to envision what could located in between that would draw market share from either existing theater complex.
I think an Alamo Drafthouse style of theater could work, something that is not just a typical theater competing against the mega-theater chains.

I don't really see any reason why Capitol Hill couldn't turn into a strip like Western around Crown Heights or even an area like South Congress here in Austin. When my wife moved to Austin 18 years ago South Congress was not an area that you wanted to be in, day or night it was more like Lincoln used to be with the seedy motels and prostitutes walking up and down the street just south of the river. Now it is a "hip strip" and a very vibrant area.

I don't ever see Crossroads as constructed coming back to being a "premier mall" in the city. What I do think could happen is another life as a redeveloped lifestyle center with Dillard's as an anchor even reusing their building and remodeling it. The Dillard's buildings at The Domain or Hill Country Galleria are really no different than their typical enclosed mall buildings except they have another exterior wall/doors instead of an interior gate or something similar.

Regarding one of Spartan's points, a first run theater in Capitol Hill area: Is that truly feasible at this point?
Harkins is a very short distance to the north, and has a lot of ancillary to-dos via BT. Warren is top notch as a venue and is only a short hop to the south.
Unless Harkins has really gone downhill, I'm finding it difficult to envision what could located in between that would draw market share from either existing theater complex.

The southside is very underserved, plus we'll probably lose the Crossroads theater soon. There is nothing between I-40 and I-240. Soon there will be nothing between I-40 and south Moore, which is only a short hop to the south in the way that the entire metro is a short hop.

Yes, Thunder is crazy. It's been confirmed.

I'd just assume see Crossroads permanently close, dozes, and made into just about anything else. Hey, maybe they can build the county jail there...lol.

Yes, Thunder is crazy. It's been confirmed.

I'd just assume see Crossroads permanently close, dozes, and made into just about anything else. Hey, maybe they can build the county jail there...lol.

How am I confirmed crazy? Why? Last I checked I am very sane and my mom is Penny.

So you're saying that if two different areas have a concentration of bars with people imbibing all night that the fact that one area has females exposing their breasts makes that area more unsafe?

No, what I'm SAYING is that the first quote was used to make it look like it was such a "trashy" area and if that affected Crossroads, it would surely affect Penn Square. The fact of the matter remains, I'd rather have my own house surrounded with bars than surrounded by strip clubs. This being because of the amounts of prostitution that goes on around strip clubs.

As far as safety goes, do your research. Of course the crime rates are high there but they are not the same as Valley Brook. Not to mention that depending on which side of the mall you are on, there are some very nice neighborhoods. The same can't be said for the Crossroads area.

No, what I'm SAYING is that the first quote was used to make it look like it was such a "trashy" area and if that affected Crossroads, it would surely affect Penn Square. The fact of the matter remains, I'd rather have my own house surrounded with bars than surrounded by strip clubs. This being because of the amounts of prostitution that goes on around strip clubs.


I never used the word trashy in describing either area. I said adult entertainment area and that's what the both are. If you call that "trashy" that's your word not mine. And you're being very naive if you think prostitution isn't present in other club areas and from what I've heard stripping isn't that uncommon in the clubs around 39th and Penn even if it isn't the kind you may be used to. The potential for problems is going to be there any time you have a large number of people congregating and drinking late at night. It doesn't matter what the age or economic demographics are. My original point was about whether people take all of that into consideration when shopping at either place and I know it never crossed my mind once.

I hear much more in the news about problems occuring in the parking lots for Walmart and Target and not just in lower income areas. A few years ago my daughter was shopping at Walmart in Edmond and when she came out to her car a man had gotten into her car somehow and disrobed. Luckily for her there were quite a few other people in the parking lot at the time and the man got out and ran away.

There is a laundry list of things competing for title of worst mistake in OKC history. Crossroads is up there, way above the level of damage of any SandRidge proposal. And you're right, if it weren't for Crossroads, it would have been an empty mall to kill of Capitol Hill--and I'd be hating on that fictional mall as well.

I don't see any reason why Capitol Hill can't become a major retail hub again because of the sheer residential density and quickly growing populations that surround it. It won't be home to a Whole Foods or a Nordstrom anytime soon, but if the city wanted to, they could really turn it into a competitive retail destination that would compete with Moore for southside sales tax dollars. All it would take to get the ball rolling is a well-planned movie theater similar to the Promenade on 4th Street in Sioux City, IA or the Warren Theatre in Wichita's Old Town. You could just take everything that's still at Crossroads and completely move it up to Capitol Hill--no reason why that couldn't happen.

Agree with you Spartan - Capitol Hill - would be fun to build on some of the momentum there. I drove down that way a few weeks ago when I was up here, quite a bit of activity in formerly closed buildings.

As I have stated in a couple of other threads, I kept having dreams of Crossroads being redone.

I can tell everyone exactly how the mall looked, and it was filled to the brim with stores.

Maybe this is the start of that dream coming true.

Dillards plus 5 new stores could be the start of something.

I wonder if Crossroad might be trying to corner the "outlet" market before the Oklahoma City Outlet Mall is finished.

Does everybody think that Crossroads got into this situation by accident?

CR has not stayed competitive and owners couldn't justify investments even when the economy was rip-roaring. There is nothing in its recent history to suggest the public will support it to the extent needed. Indoor malls are very expensive to maintain and operate and rental rates have to reflect it. When the large shopping areas of Moore and Norman can offer cheaper rent and pass it on with cheaper products due to the lower overhead, then CR has no chance. People don't want to walk from dimly lit parking areas with little or no security to a dingy environment and then spend more money than they would if they drove down the road just a bit farther. Face it, CR is a dinosaur and certainly needs to look at other uses.

I am sure that Dillards might be able to look at re-opening if they don't have to pay for common area and since people can park right outside the store and walk directly in. Otherwise, I doubt they could justify anything there. Face it, CR has been uncompetitive and been in a death spiral for quite awhile.

Crossroad's fate was known from the moment the owners refused to listen to the merchants who wanted the place modernized, so to keep with the look of modern times.

PSM and QSM changed to reflect the times, and those places are thriving.

CRM had so many issues, but the greedy owners refused to do anything to tailor to the needs of the merchants, all the while charging an insane amount of rent.

Now under government control, maybe things will be better... Like I said above, and in other posts, I believe this is the start of my dream coming true. If anyone wants to know specifically what I saw in my dreams, I will be glad to elaberate. I will also say the outside of the mall will see some changes as well, in modernizing.

I can even tell you the day I had the dream, as I logged it, incase I ended up being right.

Oh and I also want to say that those here bashing southside and anything we have, are sounding like a bunch of elitist jokes who are mad because they don't want to see southside flourish, like their precious area.

That kinda makes me sick to think people would wish for a part of their city to not get the attention it needs, just because they don't live there. Elitists always take a fall though, when a higher power usually smacks them for their arrogance.

The ignorance displayed in some aspects of this thread are staggering.

It defies the imagination that someone would seriously suggest that Capitol Hill could be "revived" to compete for "south side dollars" from the new district in Moore. Really?? That's (one of) the watermark most ridiculous notions in this entire exchange. Why on earth would anyone drive from Moore all the way to old Capitol Hill to shop!? Why on earth would anyone drive from even as far north as even 89th and head for the CH area?

The intense hatred and bigotry displayed here for south OKC is astonishing. I had hoped that hatred had died down since I was a kid, but it obviously hasn't. We have merely the fact that a department store is taking a chance and reopening in what everyone fully realizes is a distressed shopping mall, and the majority of the responses are in the vein of "let it die, Crossroads sucks, its all just hookers" and summarily lump the *entire breadth* of South OKC into one bigoted, judgmental lump of rednecked, toothless, prostituting hicks.

Had this same store been opened in one of the presumably "acceptable" parts of OKC, we would be seeing post after post of how great it was, how something would be added to the tax rolls, people would be hired and money would be added to the economy...but, no, since its South OKC in general and Crossroads in particular, we see little but venom and hatred.

Its flatly pathetic.

I am a (nearly) lifelong resident of South OKC, and have no compunction or hesitation in saying so. There are some in this city who need to come to grips with the fact that, while some parts of S OKC have their problems, there are delightful areas with wonderful neighborhoods, beautifully kept homes, and near great public parks. To paint the entire area with a broad brush as has been done in this thread is not just flatly wrong, its infuriating, too.

Shame on those of you who have done so, for whatever reason. A restored business with new employees and a hope for renewed retail benefits the entire city. Even if it comes with "tainted" southside dollars.

Rant mode off.
-SoonerDave

The ignorance displayed in some aspects of this thread are staggering.

It defies the imagination that someone would seriously suggest that Capitol Hill could be "revived" to compete for "south side dollars" from the new district in Moore. Really?? That's (one of) the watermark most ridiculous notions in this entire exchange. Why on earth would anyone drive from Moore all the way to old Capitol Hill to shop!? Why on earth would anyone drive from even as far north as even 89th and head for the CH area?

I don't think anyone was saying people from Moore would drive to Capitol Hill. I took it to mean people located between Moore and Capitol Hill might choose to shop in Capitol Hill if quality stores combined with an urban flair was available.

Oh and I also want to say that those here bashing southside and anything we have, are sounding like a bunch of elitist jokes who are mad because they don't want to see southside flourish, like their precious area.

That kinda makes me sick to think people would wish for a part of their city to not get the attention it needs, just because they don't live there. Elitists always take a fall though, when a higher power usually smacks them for their arrogance.

I take it you don't think the Southside is flourishing to the degree that other parts of OKC are.

i thing thw S.W part of okc has potential along the I-44 south of 240 area ,large undevelopment land in that area, with lots of traffic from I-44.. I stil think crossroads will be great if a major remodel is done to it

Crossroads should go after the North Pole City business as well.

good idea okclee, that would be nice to add northpole city maybe into the old macys area, nothing better than a two story christmas wonderland

I hope this is legit. I would love to see Crossroads revived. Why do people hate this place so much? You hear about a mall making a comeback and people want to poop all over the idea. Well I know two things that will exist forever, crossroads mall and negative people.

We aren't saying CR is outdated and needs to look at alternate uses to be bigoted because it is on the south side. Shoot, it is just going the way of Shephard Mall. North, south, east or west...it doesn't matter.. times change. Shephard Mall had to turn into something other than a shopping center to survive. The centers of the right economic demographics moved northward and shifted to Penn Square and then Quails Springs, etc. Just the same way, the centers have moved south towards Moore and Norman and that's where developers find bigger returns. It has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with economics.

Capital Hill's future lies in one of two things....its center of latino culture that could make it an interesting and important cultural area ala the Asian district at Classen north of 23rd, or the fact that it will have a spectacular view of downtown OKC, the river, and the new core-to-shore park, thereby making it a wonderful residential development prospect. Why in the world would you waste that view and proximity to the river and parks on a shopping center. Balcony lined condos rising up and along the hill overlooking our exiting new Devon Center, Ford Center, Core to shore park, Convention Center, Boathouses, etc. would be spectacular.

Crossroads should go after the North Pole City business as well.

That would be a great idea! I remember fondly the well done Christmas Time displays that the mall used to have!! Imagine having a sponsor right there in the mall Like North pole city!!! Free advertizing and they could kick any other malls butt with regard to going all out at Christmas time! Let's face it in retail the Fall is king and so if I were going to stage a comeback for the mall, I would absolutely pitch it and make it the biggest event to draw the patrons back to see the hoopla and crowds will shop! Once there they could be innundated with the new plans the owners have for updating the mall and making it the prime place to shop.

I am all for any areas of town that have had hard times coming back to life and contributing to the economy rather than dragging it down. The PSM will be just fine, and so there really is no loser in this scenario!

Sorry if Im contributing to derailment too much, but Capital Hill is just BEGGING to be a great neighborhood again. So many great little houses surrounding it and a FANTASTIC strip of vintage walkable retail space.....I think the posters comment about So Congress is spot on.

Oh, how delightfully ironic it would be if one of the empty anchor buildings got sold off to a funeral home, complete with a chapel and its own line of monuments.

Oh and I also want to say that those here bashing southside and anything we have, are sounding like a bunch of elitist jokes who are mad because they don't want to see southside flourish, like their precious area.

What about those of us who ARE southsiders and also don't want Crossroads revived, to hold on to a chance to revitalize something pure? (aka, not Crossroads)

People don't hate Crossroads, but rather they realize that Crossroads will not be economically viable as a shopping mall. I can absolutely understand that some of you have an attachment to the mall and/or are concerned about the mall's effect on the social/economic health of south OKC. But making Crossroads into a retail destination again (at least over the long term) will never happen.

Consider that very, very few (if any) malls in the shape Crossroads is in now have been able to return to viability as a retail mall. How would Crossroads be able to attract any major retailers in the shape that it's in now? And how would the mall be able to find a buyer that would be willing to pour in loads of money to perform the most-likely-futile task of keeping it up as a retail development? Look at how the retail and real estate industries actually work as well as what's happened to dead malls in other areas. What is so special about Crossroads that would make it be able to be successful?

Why not focus your efforts on finding some sort of other use for Crossroads? There are many potential uses for the mall/site that would be much more likely to see the light of day than a traditional mall. How about: offices, churches, schools, entertainment, light industrial/warehouse, among other uses? Any of these could be good for south OKC.

The ignorance displayed in some aspects of this thread are staggering.

It defies the imagination that someone would seriously suggest that Capitol Hill could be "revived" to compete for "south side dollars" from the new district in Moore. Really?? That's (one of) the watermark most ridiculous notions in this entire exchange. Why on earth would anyone drive from Moore all the way to old Capitol Hill to shop!? Why on earth would anyone drive from even as far north as even 89th and head for the CH area?

I didn't say that people in Moore will come and shop in Capitol Hill, although it is quite plausible that if Capitol Hill were gentrified it would be a cultural option for the entire southside. That said, I hope Moore does something with their own nicely developing downtown area, too. What I said was that it would compete WITH Moore for southside sales tax dollars, as in--you know, catch all those people living between I-40 and Moore who go to Moore for movies, restaurants, and retail. Who would have EVER thought 5 years ago that Moore would be the south metro's "destination?" Seriously.


The intense hatred and bigotry displayed here for south OKC is astonishing. I had hoped that hatred had died down since I was a kid, but it obviously hasn't. We have merely the fact that a department store is taking a chance and reopening in what everyone fully realizes is a distressed shopping mall, and the majority of the responses are in the vein of "let it die, Crossroads sucks, its all just hookers" and summarily lump the *entire breadth* of South OKC into one bigoted, judgmental lump of rednecked, toothless, prostituting hicks.

You are ignorant if you think it's that we dislike the southside. It's that we dislike what Crossroads did to the southside and we dislike massive indoor shopping malls in general. In fact, in all the tons of retail projects underway right now and commensurate for the last 10 years, a shockingly low amount of them are indoor shopping malls compared to the 80s and 90s when they were all the rage. The fact is that it's a dead concept and has been realized for what it is--a drain on closer-in ma and pa retail districts. In fact it is out of respect for the southside (as a southside local myself) that many of us detest Crossroads and want to see Capitol Hill become the southside's hub. If you hate Capitol Hill and have all this love for Crossroads, then in fact, it is really you who wants to see the southside fail.


Had this same store been opened in one of the presumably "acceptable" parts of OKC, we would be seeing post after post of how great it was, how something would be added to the tax rolls, people would be hired and money would be added to the economy...but, no, since its South OKC in general and Crossroads in particular, we see little but venom and hatred.

Um, not really. Sure--we wouldn't be as opposed to seeing Northpark or Shepherd brought back, though we'd definitely be scratching our heads as well. In case you aren't aware, Crossroads really was trashy folk central. Northpark is a dead mall but somehow it managed to stay classy nonetheless. Malls in general are filled to the brim with grotesque specimens, but dying malls more so than others, and especially dying malls named Crossroads--and that was 5-10 years ago when times began to change.


I am a (nearly) lifelong resident of South OKC, and have no compunction or hesitation in saying so. There are some in this city who need to come to grips with the fact that, while some parts of S OKC have their problems, there are delightful areas with wonderful neighborhoods, beautifully kept homes, and near great public parks. To paint the entire area with a broad brush as has been done in this thread is not just flatly wrong, its infuriating, too.

Yeah, but are you even referring to ANYTHING north of 104th? Lol--and what "near great public parks" are you talking about? My parents' still live behind Earlywine, and I could go on and on for days about how Earlywine barely qualifies as a park IMO. We can at least boast about having several "near great fields with walking trails."


Shame on those of you who have done so, for whatever reason. A restored business with new employees and a hope for renewed retail benefits the entire city. Even if it comes with "tainted" southside dollars.

So why do you hate Capitol Hill so much? Racist? Elitist? Too far to drive? Are you a US Grant guy or something? Sheesh..

this thread has gone retardo

We aren't saying CR is outdated and needs to look at alternate uses to be bigoted because it is on the south side. Shoot, it is just going the way of Shephard Mall. North, south, east or west...it doesn't matter.. times change. Shephard Mall had to turn into something other than a shopping center to survive. The centers of the right economic demographics moved northward and shifted to Penn Square and then Quails Springs, etc. Just the same way, the centers have moved south towards Moore and Norman and that's where developers find bigger returns. It has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with economics.

Capital Hill's future lies in one of two things....its center of latino culture that could make it an interesting and important cultural area ala the Asian district at Classen north of 23rd, or the fact that it will have a spectacular view of downtown OKC, the river, and the new core-to-shore park, thereby making it a wonderful residential development prospect. Why in the world would you waste that view and proximity to the river and parks on a shopping center. Balcony lined condos rising up and along the hill overlooking our exiting new Devon Center, Ford Center, Core to shore park, Convention Center, Boathouses, etc. would be spectacular.

But is there the "economics" to support everything else you mentioned?

this thread has gone retardo

It was ever anything else?

Default Re: Rumor: Dillards *returning* to Crossroads as anchor with ~ 5 new stores??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8TUwHTfOOU

It looks like once again the discussion should a took a left turn at Albuquerque or was it right at La Jolla.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8TUwHTfOOU

It looks like once again the discussion should a took a left turn at Albuquerque or was it right at La Jolla.

Just let us know when we get to Pisom Beach.

i'll admit, the endless north okc/south okc pissing contest is pretty tiresome... but i can't say that the rumor is entirely without merit... from what i understand, dillard's owns their part of crossroads mall and hasn't sold it. i can see why they'd want to make a go of something in that space rather than continue to pay property tax on an empty structure... especially if sales at other metro locations haven't increased proportionally with the absence of the crossroads store. however, i think it's overly optimistic to say that this rumor, if it comes to fruition, will put crossroads on the fast track to competing with malls like penn square. -M

it's overly optimistic to say that this rumor, if it comes to fruition, will put crossroads on the fast track to competing with malls like penn square. -M


I love this guy!

Here's an interesting article. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/top-stocks/blog.aspx?post=1796800&_blg=1,1796800


Costco makes push into malls
Large anchor spots have been losing department stores, and Costco is looking to move in.

This means we should all band together and make a push for Costco to move into one of the anchors.

Will Wal-Mart look at moving into Crossroads, perhaps?

Ok, I have read all of these posts and just have to chuckle. No, Dillards is not coming back. take the time to contact Dillards, and they will inform you that they have no plans with the location. They do still own the building and as such, are required to maintain it.
The former owners (MMP) have nothing to do with Dillards. Being located in the same state, does not mean that they are affiliated.

Crossroads died because Macerich, who sold the mall to MMP, has luxury malls on the west coast. When Crossroads mortgage hit 30 years and was about to be paid off, macerich refinanced the mall, took the equity to the west coast and sold the mall, with 0.00 equity to MMP, who really only had an interest in Nowrthwest arkansas mall.

The Feds will do nothing with the mall except sell it. They bailed out Bear Stearns and are now stuck with all of the toxic assets, Crossroads being one of them.

Crossroads will have a new purpose. hang tight and watch the news.

Any of yoi on here insulting the southside should be ashamed of yourself. To talk about south OKC, the mall, and anything else south of I-40 is disrespectful. Who are you or anyone else to judge a part of your own city and want any part of it to die? I do not feel comfortable in NE OKC, but do I go on ranting about drug dealers, prositiutes, and such? That exists all over OKC. It's just that people like you want to make a big deal out of what happens on the southside. FACT: there are more known gang sets north of I-40 than anywhere on the south side.

xxxxx

Crossroads will have a new purpose. hang tight and watch the news.

Do you know something we don't?

Breaking news !!! Crossroads mall will soon be the world largest bordello (brothel) for a new reality series. HBO will buy the mall for there new series called JUST PASSING THROUGH.. Crew and cast will live on site.. This is going to be huge.. Now this is just a rumor I heard so its not 100% yet

Maybe they will shoot a Blue's Brothers remake chase scene and Dillard's will have a sale called "Crossroads Last Gasp". LOL, I hope this isn't in Crossroad's future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Square_Mall

I didn't say that people in Moore will come and shop in Capitol Hill, although it is quite plausible that if Capitol Hill were gentrified it would be a cultural option for the entire southside.

You, as do many others, still have this narrow view of the southside as existing in what seems to be a two square mile starting around SW 29th. It hasn't been that small in nearly my entire lifetime.





[quote]
You are ignorant if you think it's that we dislike the southside. It's that we dislike what Crossroads did to the southside and we dislike massive indoor shopping malls in general. In fact, in all the tons of retail projects underway right now and commensurate for the last 10 years, a shockingly low amount of them are indoor shopping malls compared to the 80s and 90s when they were all the rage. The fact is that it's a dead concept and has been realized for what it is--a drain on closer-in ma and pa retail districts.

You actually think that if Crossroads had never been built that Capitol Hill would still be this hub of vibrant social and retail activity? Good grief, the deterioration and flight out of that region of OKC started when I was a kid before they ever broke ground on Crossroads.




In fact it is out of respect for the southside (as a southside local myself) that many of us detest Crossroads and want to see Capitol Hill become the southside's hub. If you hate Capitol Hill and have all this love for Crossroads, then in fact, it is really you who wants to see the southside fail.


Ah, so you are the paragon of virtue and perpetual referee on what is the "real" southside, eh? South Oklahoma City goes beyond SW 29th, Spartan. There's no earthly reason to expect it could compete with Bricktown or serve as an ongoing draw for folks whose address is on the order of 149th or 134th. But, according to you, if I don't want "near" SW OKC to enjoy a renaissance, I'm a hater of "real" S. OKC. That's patently ridiculous.


Um, not really. Sure--we wouldn't be as opposed to seeing Northpark or Shepherd brought back, though we'd definitely be scratching our heads as well. In case you aren't aware, Crossroads really was trashy folk central.
[quote]

At least you admit your bigotry, hatred, and ignorance. My family and I spent plenty of time in Crossroads, so I'm guessing I'm among the kingpins of the trashy folk of whom you're so fearful.

[quote]
Northpark is a dead mall but somehow it managed to stay classy nonetheless. Malls in general are filled to the brim with grotesque specimens, but dying malls more so than others, and especially dying malls named Crossroads--and that was 5-10 years ago when times began to change.


Its a lot easier to stay "classy" when the area surrounding you isn't deteriorating on a daily basis. And you're rife with your own hypocrisy in that you spew hatred for enclosed shopping malls just a few sentences ago, yet here discard all that and admit that you wouldn't care about a mall coming back if it were what you deem to be the "right" part of town, consisting exclusively of only the folks you deem to be "non-trashy."



Yeah, but are you even referring to ANYTHING north of 104th? Lol--and what "near great public parks" are you talking about? My parents' still live behind Earlywine, and I could go on and on for days about how Earlywine barely qualifies as a park IMO. We can at least boast about having several "near great fields with walking trails."


Who cares what the boundary is?? Are you trying to worsen the bigotry against south OKC by creating even *new* divisions between the "northern" half of S. OKC and the "southern" half??? Good grief, man, stop the hate. Once again, South OKC doesn't stop where you say it does.

Interesting how *you* mention Earlywine, when I said "park," (without mentioning a name), then you tear it down. Just more strawman "I hate this, so everyone else obviously should" nonsense.



So why do you hate Capitol Hill so much? Racist? Elitist? Too far to drive? Are you a US Grant guy or something? Sheesh..

Nice, I don't endorse your view, so I'm a racist that hates Capitol Hill. Give me a physical break.

If someone wants to try to do something to Capitol Hill, power to them. But this idea that we're going to recreate it as the social and retail hub of south OKC doesn't even pass the sniff test. Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen with Bricktown a shade north. That said, if someone who has the resources wants to give it a shot, hey, I have no problem with it. Either way, you're just manufacturing this issue as a pivot for trashing and spewing your personal hatred against the rest of S. OKC.

The thing you don't realize is that folks in far south OKC are just as much a part of this city as everyone else, no matter how much you hate and loathe them, or their parks, or their walking trails, or whatever else it is that you hate about them.

BTW, I started this whole thread about Dillards and Crossroads. I make no pretense or suggestion that Crossroads is ever going to become any big-time retail presence again. But, if the rumor proves true, it shows someone is willing to take the risk, and that deserves props in my book. And I'd say the same thing if someone undertook a similar project in Capitol Hill, or any other distressed area.

Sooner Dave, I am glad that Dillards might be going back in to crossroads, and I do not understand what the big deal is with the south vs north, its like we are in the civil war of retail and types of people here whats goin on?

It doesn't matter north, south, east or west....development follows and anticipates money. Deteriorating neighborhoods in any area lose better retailers and property owners. It is all about the economics folks. To argue that it is easier to maintain and grow good retail in areas of higher income and better property isn't racist, it is economics. South OKC has plenty of great development going on, but it isn't in Capital Hill...it is further south. And Shepherd Mall got gunned down by Penn Square and Quail Springs. The only color that dominates in this is green.

For Capital Hill to come back, the local businesspeople in the area have to invest to bring the area back to desirable for the target audience they have identified. They have to give them a REASON to come back and shop, spend time and move back there. Look to the Asian district to see how things can start to improve when the neighborhood residents and businessmen make a concerted effort and put their money where their concerns are. Just WISHING for an area to come is pretty naive. That is until it becomes so worthless that the property can be had for next to nothing and whole areas can be cleared to start over or are repurposed. Ask Detroit where whole neighborhoods are being turned back into farms rather than the public continuing to support totally deteriorated neighborhoods. Shoot, the core to shore park is affordable because the property owners there have let it deteriorate to the point of it being affordable to clear it out and make it public space.

Sooner Dave, I am glad that Dillards might be going back in to crossroads, and I do not understand what the big deal is with the south vs north, its like we are in the civil war of retail and types of people here whats goin on?

Demographics are what matters, period.

You, as do many others, still have this narrow view of the southside as existing in what seems to be a two square mile starting around SW 29th. It hasn't been that small in nearly my entire lifetime.

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You actually think that if Crossroads had never been built that Capitol Hill would still be this hub of vibrant social and retail activity? Good grief, the deterioration and flight out of that region of OKC started when I was a kid before they ever broke ground on Crossroads.



Ah, so you are the paragon of virtue and perpetual referee on what is the "real" southside, eh? South Oklahoma City goes beyond SW 29th, Spartan. There's no earthly reason to expect it could compete with Bricktown or serve as an ongoing draw for folks whose address is on the order of 149th or 134th. But, according to you, if I don't want "near" SW OKC to enjoy a renaissance, I'm a hater of "real" S. OKC. That's patently ridiculous.

[quote]Um, not really. Sure--we wouldn't be as opposed to seeing Northpark or Shepherd brought back, though we'd definitely be scratching our heads as well. In case you aren't aware, Crossroads really was trashy folk central.
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At least you admit your bigotry, hatred, and ignorance. My family and I spent plenty of time in Crossroads, so I'm guessing I'm among the kingpins of the trashy folk of whom you're so fearful.



Its a lot easier to stay "classy" when the area surrounding you isn't deteriorating on a daily basis. And you're rife with your own hypocrisy in that you spew hatred for enclosed shopping malls just a few sentences ago, yet here discard all that and admit that you wouldn't care about a mall coming back if it were what you deem to be the "right" part of town, consisting exclusively of only the folks you deem to be "non-trashy."



Who cares what the boundary is?? Are you trying to worsen the bigotry against south OKC by creating even *new* divisions between the "northern" half of S. OKC and the "southern" half??? Good grief, man, stop the hate. Once again, South OKC doesn't stop where you say it does.

Interesting how *you* mention Earlywine, when I said "park," (without mentioning a name), then you tear it down. Just more strawman "I hate this, so everyone else obviously should" nonsense.



Nice, I don't endorse your view, so I'm a racist that hates Capitol Hill. Give me a physical break.

If someone wants to try to do something to Capitol Hill, power to them. But this idea that we're going to recreate it as the social and retail hub of south OKC doesn't even pass the sniff test. Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen with Bricktown a shade north. That said, if someone who has the resources wants to give it a shot, hey, I have no problem with it. Either way, you're just manufacturing this issue as a pivot for trashing and spewing your personal hatred against the rest of S. OKC.

The thing you don't realize is that folks in far south OKC are just as much a part of this city as everyone else, no matter how much you hate and loathe them, or their parks, or their walking trails, or whatever else it is that you hate about them.

BTW, I started this whole thread about Dillards and Crossroads. I make no pretense or suggestion that Crossroads is ever going to become any big-time retail presence again. But, if the rumor proves true, it shows someone is willing to take the risk, and that deserves props in my book. And I'd say the same thing if someone undertook a similar project in Capitol Hill, or any other distressed area.

Yeah... apparently I loathe people in far south OKC and don't consider them part of this city. Unfortunately I don't have time to get very far through this very asinine, backward, circular, and fallacious post. You might just do us all a favor and avoid any discussions that are city-related and planning-involved if you don't want to address the urban south side, and only want to talk about the far south side. That's exactly the myopic thinking that got the urban south side where it is today.

It is fascinating to me that you imply that I am trying to create divisions at I-240 splitting the southside in half. Reality is that you evidently could care less about the urban south side, especially if you want to see Crossroads Mall come back. What you don't realize is that just because something you are familiar with is in disrepair does not mean it has to be brought back. To be frank, Crossroads is a piece of crap to begin with. There is nothing worth saving and bringing back in the first place there. The fall of Crossroads is a huge opportunity for the south side--that is retail demand that has opened up--we can only have so much development that the market can support, and this gives us an opportunity to pull off a major development on the southside and hopefully do it in some way that can save the urban parts. That is my hope at least.

If some idiots really do try and revive Crossroads or if all of the retail that replaces it goes along 240 or south of there, then I am pragmatic enough to realize that there goes the outside shot to use development to revitalize the southside. That's what this is about. And demographically, why not? The area between I-40 and I-240 is actually one of the fastest growing areas of the city..not in terms of new bldg permits obviously, but definitely in terms of population growth. It's also the densest portion of the city and has some of the highest traffic counts, particularly along Western all the way from the river to I-240.

Look at it in context of everything going on in the city right now. The area just south of downtown is going to become a development hotspot if we play our cards right. I'm a huge C2S skeptic and I can even say that much about it. If the southside is gentrified as far south as 15th, who is to say that it wouldn't cross the Oklahoma River? There is already a huge mixed-use project planned on the south shore of the river. Capitol Hill IS strategically positioned for a comeback if we can make it the downtown for the southside and infuse it with retail that will be relevant to the people living there. It can't just be what exists there now though. It has to have broad appeal to the entire population, which includes white people.

EVERYTHING from South Grand to the Oklahoma River is a potential hotspot & is the most architecturally and historically significant part of the southside.

Maybe they could use the Crossroads parking lot for the Grand Prix.

I still say turn it into one of the world largest halloween park, have 4 large haunted houses _each department store, and the rest of the spaces halloween themed events and midway games , pumpkin patch...at least the mall would be busy on month out of the year

I've said this before but all you can see from I-35 is the loading dock of Best Buy and that back of the ugly strip center that backs up to the highway all the way to 66th street. If all of that density was cleared out and you could actually see the big mall on the hill, it would attract more stores. I think whoever runs the place should offer to renovate the JCP location and offer to work with Best Buy to relocate there, and start cleaning up the density so you can see the mall, maybe offer a few nice restaurant chains along the highway, clean up the large parking lot and add better lighting and landscaping. They should cater to stores that aren't in the other OKC malls, like BN or Borders (there are cool 2-story bookstores in Dallas malls), ToysRus, a sports store, anything really... it just seems like a huge waste of infastructure and good for Dillards for giving it a shot.
I know the 'in' thing now is open air malls but but they were all originally run out of business by enclosed malls, now there is this huge waste, whatever the price tag is on that building it is far less than what could be built today, and its in good condition, it just needs a facelift and that's cheap construction, where are all the MAPSesque developers with $$ ?
If it had unique stores/anchors and a nice food court like PennSquare, it would be a great alternative around the metro, and one thing PennSquare can never compete with is Parking, I would rather not go there just because of the traffic jams, and around the Holidays, forget it.
I was in kid in the 80's and you could still see the cool pyramid roof structure going on from the highway, that's a unique symbol that attracts people, but as long as you can't see the place nothing will happen there. How about bring it back and LED-light the pyramids at night? Be sustainable.

I suppose if you think energy will become cheaper in the future; then, an enclosed mall that requires heating and cooling and depends entirely on automobile traffic might make some kind of sense.

Someone would have to figure out how to manage the enormous maintenance costs that would have to be recovered from the tenants.

Then there is the problem of finding tenants. Dillard's isn't exactly the best bet financially although certainly better than Barnes and Noble.

All malls seemed to have developed the out-parcels over the years so that is nothing that other malls haven't had to deal with. A good, healthy mall shouldn't have to be "seen" from the adjacent roadways. Parts of (Austin) Highland Mall can be seen from I-35 and it was not built on I-35 but yet it is a failing mall. In contrast, Barton Square Mall can't be seen from Capitol of Texas highway (360) or Mopac (Loop 1) but yet is a healthy mall with Nordstrom being added about 5 years ago. Sure visibility helps but it isn't a "make or break" thing, mall management and investment is, highways all over the country are littered with failing enclosed malls with highway visibility. Westminster Mall (Denver) is visible from the Boulder Highway (US-36) but is facing foreclosure while the mall in the Interlochen area is surrounded by development and has limited visibility from 36 and seems to be doing pretty well. Older malls face different challenges and the previous ownership of Crossroads wasn't up to the task.

I still think redevelopment into an outdoor mall retaining the anchors and maybe some of the current buildings adding onto them is the best redevelopment scenario. The pyramid structure could possibly be retained in some way.

The tenants didn't leave oringally because of paying the AC bill, they left because nobody shopped there anymore and they made no money. I'm just giving a brainstorm of why I think that it is dead because it's not visible to the heavy traffic passing by everyday, and with Dillard's lead it's a good oportunity for someone with money to make use of the site. Energy certainly will not get cheaper, but if the systems were updated the energy bills would be minimal compared to what there were 20-30 years ago when the place was thriving. And as far as cars, this one of the biggest suburban cities in the US, their not going away. Its good to have the whole mixed use and urbanism ideal, I'm all for it, but that won't happen overnight so a mojority of the people going anywhere will be depending on the automobile. And the BN coment was an ideal comparing several malls in Dallas where they are a large tenant and it seems to work out great, they are always full, its just something to magnet people to other stores and there isn't one in the area, it doesnt have to be in a 2-story anchor location, but something quite a bit larger than the bookstore that was there.

The tenants didn't leave oringally because of paying the AC bill, they left because nobody shopped there anymore and they made no money. I'm just giving a brainstorm of why I think that it is dead because it's not visible to the heavy traffic passing by everyday, and with Dillard's lead it's a good oportunity for someone with money to make use of the site.
Poor access to the mall for those unfamiliar is a problem that I think the location has always had. Once you learn how to get in there it wasn't that difficult but signage and access from the highway has always been lacking. Most need an easy way to get in and the nature of that interchange prevented that.


Energy certainly will not get cheaper, but if the systems were updated the energy bills would be minimal compared to what there were 20-30 years ago when the place was thriving. And as far as cars, this one of the biggest suburban cities in the US, their not going away. Its good to have the whole mixed use and urbanism ideal, I'm all for it, but that won't happen overnight so a mojority of the people going anywhere will be depending on the automobile. And the BN coment was an ideal comparing several malls in Dallas where they are a large tenant and it seems to work out great, they are always full, its just something to magnet people to other stores and there isn't one in the area, it doesnt have to be in a 2-story anchor location, but something quite a bit larger than the bookstore that was there.
That is one thing that I think too many in the architecture/planning profession tend to ignore, that outside of the Northeast cars are not going away and we should do our best to manage them in the best way we can and mesh them into the planning process. Some of the newest mixed-use developments that I have been to try to act like they don't exist and it always creates a problem once the idyllic "new-urbanist" planning ideals meets the real world.

I don't no as much about everyone elses malls, but Crossroads is pretty close to where a lot of people live and work, and all those people go elsewhere to shop because nothings there. Maybe visibility isnt everything, and I don't suggest dozing everything, but they could at least clean up the development that is empty and plan it a little better, TX road house, the theater etc. are fine...
Quail Springs is pretty well developed on most sides, but it works because most of it is restaurants that face memorial road and when people are through eating, they can go walk around a comfortable mall and spend more money and see a movie or something.
And I like open are shopping centers too, its back in, but we have a lot of that, and I'm just thinking a revitalized Crossroads is just something different.

It does have poor access, but I guess what I'm trying to say is if you have a hub of some sort that is visible and appeals to people in a way it hasn't and other places don't people will figure out how to get there until that problem can be solved.