That mall is going to be so very nice now.
It will be like...like going to the post office.

Silly Metro,

All of the socialism happened on Bush's watch. Oh wait, wouldn't want to intervene with facts.

Silly Metro,

All of the socialism happened on Bush's watch. Oh wait, wouldn't want to intervene with facts.

It does not matter who started... the point is it needs to stop. America did not become the powerhouse it is today because of goverment management. The power and creativity of the individual person and the free enterprise system is what made America great.

If goverment would have stood back and let things happen naturally the economy would be just fine. Sure there would have been job losses and the closure of coporate empires but in the end all would have worked out. The only roll government should have played was providing assistance to those that needed help cover the cost of re-training or relocated to areas were they could find work. It could have been done with income tax relief and temporary no interest loans.

The government should have known if you can't swim you should not be applying for the job of a lifeguard.

It does not matter who started... the point is it needs to stop. America did not become the powerhouse it is today because of goverment management. The power and creativity of the individual person and the free enterprise system is what made America great.

If goverment would have stood back and let things happen naturally the economy would be just fine. Sure there would have been job losses and the closure of coporate empires but in the end all would have worked out. The only roll government should have played was providing assistance to those that needed help cover the cost of re-training or relocated to areas were they could find work. It could have been done with income tax relief and temporary no interest loans.

The government should have known if you can't swim you should not be applying for the job of a lifeguard.

Unfortunately, the government stood back and allowed corporate greed and politics to run rampant and it has nearly killed our economy. Its very clear that with the business of money, the government MUST regulate and must have significant controls in place or the greedy will always take advantage.

I also feel that due to the fact insurance companies have overtly taken advantage of people and ignored the notion of being good corporate and moral citizens that the government has a role in health care. It doesn't mean that government needs to nationalize the industry, however. Strict regulation and a conversion of health insurance providers from pure profit-making entities to more of a highly regulated utility would solve the problem.

There is a very fine line regarding where government needs to get involved and where they have no business getting involved. Unfortunately, it has become a huge difference in our society between those who feel like people should basically support themselves and be responsible for their own actions and those who feel government is the answer for everything.

If we were to have a long conversation about government responsibility, it would appear that I am being hypocritical because there are some areas I believe government SHOULD be the controlling entity. There are others they should get their nose out of things and allow capitalism and free thinking to rule.

Silly Metro,

All of the socialism happened on Bush's watch. Oh wait, wouldn't want to intervene with facts.

Yes, Bush started 1 or 2 stimuli (which I don't agree with BTW), so that makes him a socialist? Sorry but he let the free markets rule the majority of his tenure. Obama has government hands in about everything in less than a year. Wouldn't want to let those facts show up would we?

someone needs to put obamas head on the britney spears music song circus, then more people will understand whats going on with what obama is doing ( instead of everytime she uses the word circus ad socialist) could this be a hidden message in the songs lol..the socialism people are brain washing us lol heck what do you think of when the word library comes about ( oh no a building with tons of free thinking authors of all types better keep our children out of there, they might stumble upon one of those books)

Unfortunately, the government stood back and allowed corporate greed and politics to run rampant and it has nearly killed our economy. Its very clear that with the business of money, the government MUST regulate and must have significant controls in place or the greedy will always take advantage.
Regulation is only as good as the people doing the regulating. It does nothing to guarantee "fairness" in business.

The greedy take advantage whether there is regulation or not, after all, human beings are doing the regulating and most who desire those type of positions tend to be the ones who tend to be susceptible to inducements to look the other way. Sometimes stringent regulations has the opposite effect and creates "opportunities" for the exploitation of regulations, usually by the already well funded companies to dismiss rivals through such regulation.

Agreed to some extent. There were a lot of regulations in place on the financial institutions that were not applied and there were warnings as much as 10 years ago that Bernard Madoff was running a Ponzi scheme but no one listened or took action.

As for your second statement, I disagree. If proper regulation had been put in place and properly applied, and if the politicians had stayed out of the business of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, much of our current problems would have never occurred. Properly enforced and applied regulation can very definitely prevent problems. I've seen the regulators catch too many people doing wrong things in my business which prevented far worse problems from happening.

There is a very fine line regarding where government needs to get involved and where they have no business getting involved. Unfortunately, it has become a huge difference in our society between those who feel like people should basically support themselves and be responsible for their own actions and those who feel government is the answer for everything.

Well said...it's too bad that the "huge difference" you speak of started out as a small one.

Yes, saddling the federal government with Crossroads is not because Bear Stearns made bad decisions in their greed, but is really part of Obama's evil plan to force socialism on the unwitting public. That line of reasoning is so ridiculous it could have come from the politics board!! :)

As for your second statement, I disagree. If proper regulation had been put in place and properly applied, and if the politicians had stayed out of the business of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, much of our current problems would have never occurred. Properly enforced and applied regulation can very definitely prevent problems. I've seen the regulators catch too many people doing wrong things in my business which prevented far worse problems from happening.
There are many companies out there exploiting regulations to increase their profits and lobby to burden competitors with even more regulation because they already know the loopholes or places where regulations can be exploited for profit. Most of the regulations are written by politicians or more accurately the lobbyists lawyers with the interests of those doing the exploiting...so just how good is "regulation" when it is written by those who are supposed to be regulated? This has also occurred no matter which party is in power so it is not a "party" issue, both parties have their masters who have bought and paid for their services.

I put little faith into "regulation" by the current (and not so current) people in power.

She had a store in Midwest City’s Heritage Park Mall until 2003. Business was slow there, but it’s even slower at Crossroads, she said.

"I haven’t really seen much progress here,” said Brown.

What does that tell ya?



z28, it is people like you that needs to be ejected out of the state (or at least this city).

:omg: Settle down, Thunder. Accepting your denial is the first step...



Just exactly who do you plan on filling those anchor spaces?

Thunder has letters of intent from Montgomery Ward, Mervyn's, TG&Y, and Anthony's.

"Thunder has letters of intent from Montgomery Ward, Mervyn's, TG&Y, and Anthony's. "


OMG LOL I died laughing!

Thunder has letters of intent from Montgomery Ward, Mervyn's, TG&Y, and Anthony's.

While you dream of landing Otasco or Woolworths, I say, "Get with the 90's man!" Let's remake it into a high-tech, electronics and entertainment destination point with Circuit City, CompUSA, The Sharper Image and Hollywood Video.

P.S. I think Sears Catalog Stores are making a comeback.

What does that tell ya?




:omg: Settle down, Thunder. Accepting your denial is the first step...




Thunder has letters of intent from Montgomery Ward, Mervyn's, TG&Y, and Anthony's.

That is partially true. There is more companies that had already submitted their letter of intent. :doh:

Hang in there Thunder, don't let either naysayers or reality hold ya back

The federal govt couldn't do any worse of a job managing the property than Macerich did.

The article is completely inaccurate...or as Mike Gundy would say "inackurrit".

Crossroads Mall is nowhere near a Grade "B" mall. There are 24 other letters to describe Crossroads, because neither A or B qualify.

Could be class A office space though.

That mall is going to be so very nice now.
It will be like...like going to the post office.

:LolLolLol I seriously love your comment!

There are many companies out there exploiting regulations to increase their profits and lobby to burden competitors with even more regulation because they already know the loopholes or places where regulations can be exploited for profit. Most of the regulations are written by politicians or more accurately the lobbyists lawyers with the interests of those doing the exploiting...so just how good is "regulation" when it is written by those who are supposed to be regulated? This has also occurred no matter which party is in power so it is not a "party" issue, both parties have their masters who have bought and paid for their services.

I put little faith into "regulation" by the current (and not so current) people in power.

Such as?

In Saturday's Oklahoman 10/17/09

"Fed Chairman Bernanke: Crossroads Mall landlord"

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/fed-chairman-bernanke-crossroads-mall-landlord/article/3409622?custom_click=columnist)

Saw this on Drudge this morning. Though it looks like its headed that way, I still think the article title calling the mall deserted is a bit misleading.
Deserted shopping mall bleak symbol of Fed bailout | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE59K01420091021)

Saw this on Drudge this morning. Though it looks like its headed that way, I still think the article title calling the mall deserted is a bit misleading.
Deserted shopping mall bleak symbol of Fed bailout | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE59K01420091021)

Nah. It's a fair statement to note, as they did, "[a] $29 billion trail from the Federal Reserve's bailout of Wall Street investment bank Bear Stearns ends in a partially deserted shopping center on a bleak spot on the south side of Oklahoma City."
(emphasis added)

The mall ain't dead, but considering all the main anchors are gone, to say it is only partially deserted is more than a tad charitable. And let's face it, the area of SE 66th and I-35 immediately around the mall is a tad bleak due to some long standing building vacancies and some general neglect of the grounds.

Oklahoma City man purchases Macy’s property (http://newsok.com/city-man-purchases-macys-property/article/3433082)

Oklahoma City developer Richard Tanenbaum has bought the former Macy’s Department Store at Crossroads Mall.

Tanenbaum’s Crossroads 150/LLC paid the chain $1.5 million for the 151,000-square-foot parcel on 14 acres in a transaction not related to the disposition of the main mall property, which remains for sale for $24 million by Maiden Lane LLC, an entity of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

Commercial property broker Gerald L. Gamble of Gerald L. Gamble Co. handled the deal, which Tanenbaum described as being hard to resist.

"At $10 a foot, I couldn’t pass it up,” Tanenbaum said of the property, which abuts the main mall building. "It’s a gorgeous, gorgeous deal. Immaculate. In A-1 shape.

He said he bought it to hold for an investment but that it eventually could be converted to office space, a call center or other nonretail use.

The central bank wound up with Crossroads Mall after Arkansas-based Midwest Mall Properties LLC lost it to foreclosure late last year. The Macy’s store, however, is one of several parcels at the 941,745-square-foot mall that were not part of the foreclosure.

Price Edwards & Co. is managing Crossroads Mall but will not talk about it, citing a confidentiality agreement.

where is the outlet mall going to be?

where is the outlet mall going to be?

There's one planned for I-40/Reno and Council, but the last I've heard it's on hold.

I think that since it is a vestige of a by gone era, that the best thing for it is to be demolished. The property itself would be very attractive for a large lufestyle center with residential and office intermingled. It has great access to the Major freeways and would do wonders for the areas. The geography being on part of a hill makes it even more appealing, a chance to create a node of density and a neighborhood all at once that could become an economic mini-engine alternatively would be a site for an Outlet malls center crafted as some of the recent ones I have seen elsewhere that have the feel of a nice walkable village wit structured parking conceiled carefully on the edge of the site or central with residential living on top of it. There are endless possibilities, but for most we will simply have to wait for the economy to begin to turn a corner.

There's one planned for I-40/Reno and Council, but the last I've heard it's on hold.

I think it is not on hold anymore, I think they are going ahead and start build it.

I think it is not on hold anymore, I think they are going ahead and start build it.

Yes. It has been greenlighted. There was some site prep that needed to be done, but it's a go as of last week.

... He said he bought it to hold for an investment but that it eventually could be converted to office space, a call center or other nonretail use.

I can think of at least one state agency that is in need of space. Wouldn't fill up the old Foley's/Macy's by any means, but could take a decent size chunk patch of it. Would rather see them remain in Norman, but I'm uncertain if that's possible given what's available.

Yes. It has been greenlighted. There was some site prep that needed to be done, but it's a go as of last week.

Do you have a link on that? The last thing I saw was this article by Steve


September 19, 2009
Oklahoma City outlet mall plans on track despite slumping economy
BY STEVE LACKMEYER
Developers of a $65 million factory outlet mall planned for west Oklahoma City say the project is alive and well, even as city officials have put promised improvements in the area on hold.

Assistant City Manager Cathy O’Connor said designs for infrastructure improvements at Council Road and Interstate 40 are complete, but won’t be put out for bid until the city is assured the development is moving forward...

That is all of the teaser but it mentioned they didn't quite have the % requirement of letters of intent/signed leases.

Until then, the City wisely was putting a delay on spending the money for the improvements to the area it had agreed to.

You might be on to something. One possible use for Crossroads would be for a tribe with lots of money to buy the place and turn it into a massive casino and mixed use complex, complete with hotel space, entertainment options, some retail, and a casino taking up the majority of space, all under one roof. ...

Interesting idea but a tribe can't just buy property and build a casino just anywhere. The land has to be put into trust and there are a lot of federal regulations. As I understand it, one of the stipulations is a tribe has to have a historic claim to the property in question. The tribe that is wanting to put the casino complex (which Mayor Mick opposes) in the Frontier City/Remington Park area is a good example. Originally they wanted to build in Bricktown. While they own the land it hasn't been put in trust yet because I believe there is some dispute to the historical criteria for that tribe.

Interestingly it doesn't stop a tribe from owning Remington Park (an existing Casino) so maybe those rules only apply to building new ones instead of taking over existing ones.

NPR's "All Things Considered" mentioned Crossroads Mall yesterday when discussing the assets of the Fed's "Maiden Lane" entities: Why The Fed Owns A Mall In Oklahoma City : NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125764118)

I am going to have to make a trip out there just to see how many stores are left. I keep seeing former Crossroads stores in new locations around South OKC and Moore.

Again, money is being put into rennovating areas outside of southside OKC. Now I can confirm why I think the way I thought in the OKC vs Northside topic.

Despite living in southside OKC, I can't see this place getting any attention, even from the city, to help revive the area.

Pathetic.

Yeah, it isn't like this is something happening to malls all over the country or even that it happened to Shepherd Mall long before Crossroads or Heritage Park went into decline.

It's an old mall that the (out of town) owners never put any money into in the way of improvements over the years like what was done to Penn Square or Quail Springs. All of those malls were owned by out of state entities, Penn and Quail had owners who were willing to reinvest, Crossroads and Heritage had owners who only wanted to pick the bones for profits. If Crossroads would have had owners willing to keep it up to date it might still be a viable mall, poor ownership/management is usually at the root of most retail failures. None of them had any public funds put into them beyond original incentives that I know of, now that the feds own Crossroads nothing is going to happen other than a fire sale.

Just like in the OKC/Tulsa store thread, on the retail level blame those southsiders who went to retail elsewhere whether it be Moore/Norman or North OKC, it isn't the fault of any one other than that and the previously mentioned poor owners.

Yeah, that's why I barely shop outside of Southside, because the more money I give to other sides of town, the more my side declines and goes down the ****ter.

Only time I shop outside of Southside, is if I go clothes shopping.

I guess you could say most of us are guilty of it. I grew up not that far from Shepherd Mall and we would go to Crossroads quite often when it first opened.

I guess you could say most of us are guilty of it. I grew up not that far from Shepherd Mall and we would go to Crossroads quite often when it first opened.

Ironically, that's quite the opposite of the current situation.

Not really, it was "new and big" at the time and was the place to go, as things age everyone moves onto the newest place open. So it is pretty much just the normal cycle of things. Basically Penn Square is still the "newest" since it is pretty much a completely different mall than it was in the 80's before the renovation. I typically went to Quail or Penn when I moved out because I always lived pretty far north. I rarely went to Crossroads, about the only time was when a store elsewhere didn't have something. My sister worked at Crossroads for awhile in the mid-90's when she was going to OU, even then it was still a pretty decent mall. She worked at Quail after transferring to UCO.

I'm hearing some rumblings about a large southside church having interest in buying the building for a large multi-purpose ministry center.

Pretty sad this city can't even support 3 malls.

People don't need malls with big box and lifestyle centers. OKC has plenty of the former and will develop more of the latter. A mobile society likes to drive up to the door and walk out with instant gratification. Long ago, people bemoaned the loss of the catalog stores - now they have them again x 100 with the internet. Most malls will die - the ones that survive are better run, more creative and extending their purpose beyond convenience shopping.

Pretty sad this city can't even support 3 malls.

How many cities can support three "malls" in the traditional sense. Malls are closing all over the country.

I'm hearing some rumblings about a large southside church having interest in buying the building for a large multi-purpose ministry center.

That sounds likely.

I know someone who sales POS systems that says the owners are about to turn the mall into something resembling a flea market.

Crossroads has no chance of being turned into something nice until I-240 and I-35 interchange is rebuilt which is still at least 7 years away.

How many cities can support three "malls" in the traditional sense. Malls are closing all over the country.

Yes I realize the traditional mall is "dead" as far as new construction goes, but most cities have several thriving traditional malls. It's just sad the entire south side of town can't support one respectibly sized mall. I wonder how we fair to similar sized cities? It'd be another thing if we had lifestyle shopping centers, but we really don't. Spring Creek is the closest thing and that's limited on retailers.

i'd say that crossroads is failing more from a lack of support from its own management than it is from a lack of support from the south side of town.

-M

You can't really even see the mall going north or south on I-35, its not a desitnation point anymore, all you see is the back end of cheap commercial buildings, almost like driving down an alley...The more development that came in and put there back doors to the highway, the more the mall failed. The only thing there worth going to is Best Buy and Texas Road House, if they would move in the mall that would help, and maybe put a few design elements on the outside so it doesnt look like a prison compound.
If they would take a giant Best Buy blue swoosh entrance and pop in on the side of the old Dillards that would be a destination - who wouldn't go to a 3 story Best Buy? (and tear down the old Best buy so you could actually see the mall) You could also tear down the dirty theaters and have clean secure move complex somewhere inside the mall like Penn.

Lindsay Architect, I've always felt the way you do. It's as if the mall's owners over the years were horribly short-sighted and greedy, building up every inch of highway frontage to where the mall couldn't be seen at all.
When I was a kid that mall stood out. You couldn't miss it. And you wanted to go there. What amazes me is how banks went along with this crazy development scheme to the point that now you and I are stuck being the owners.

Yes I realize the traditional mall is "dead" as far as new construction goes, but most cities have several thriving traditional malls. It's just sad the entire south side of town can't support one respectibly sized mall. I wonder how we fair to similar sized cities? It'd be another thing if we had lifestyle shopping centers, but we really don't. Spring Creek is the closest thing and that's limited on retailers.
Here in Austin Highland Mall is where Crossroads was a few years ago, they still have Macy's, Dillard's has been threatening to close and will probably when their lease is up, JC Penney did a few years ago. If/when Highland closes that will leave only two enclosed malls in Austin, Lakeline which is far northwest and Barton Creek which is pretty far south. There is The Arboretum open air mall (and has lost some tenants) and The Domain in North Austin which is a new lifestyle center, Phase opens this month and is about 25% OCCUPIED. The Hill Country Galleria in far, far, west Austin (not even in Austin) which has only been open for two years and recently emerged from bankruptcy and has lost half its small tenants. The Big Box Malls have really replaced the traditional mall, we have several around here that have attracted many of the traditional mall stores like JC Penney (who had already been moving away from the traditional mall) and Bath and Body Works, especially in the areas that are not served by the two main malls that are on one edge of town or the other.

Ownership/management is always the key, Barton Creek and Lakeline are owned/managed by Simon, who also has The Domain, The Arboretum and the majority of the big box/strip malls in the Austin metro. Highland Mall has had a strange ownership situation, it is 50% owned by Simon and General Growth, whom Simon has been trying to acquire as General Growth tries to emerge from bankruptcy, so it has had little investment.

San Antonio is also going through the same issue with new lifestyle and big box centers taking the place of the traditional mall.


Lindsay Architect, I've always felt the way you do. It's as if the mall's owners over the years were horribly short-sighted and greedy, building up every inch of highway frontage to where the mall couldn't be seen at all.
When I was a kid that mall stood out. You couldn't miss it. And you wanted to go there. What amazes me is how banks went along with this crazy development scheme to the point that now you and I are stuck being the owners.
I thought the outparcels were separated from the mall ownership a long time ago. Once they were no longer under their control they didn't have much say about blocking the view of the mall.

i'd say that crossroads is failing more from a lack of support from its own management than it is from a lack of support from the south side of town.

-M

Agreed. Crossroads was still on the South side of OKC when it was well supported many years ago. The location on the South side has nothing to do with it's problems. Management issues and shopping trends are the problem.

You can't really even see the mall going north or south on I-35, its not a desitnation point anymore, all you see is the back end of cheap commercial buildings, almost like driving down an alley....

:yourock:

Just did a little research and thinking... St. Louis had 11 enclosed malls when I moved here in the late '90's, today it has eight and only about 4 or 5 of those are even of the Quail Springs quality. Maybe only 3 that I would even drive a few minutes to support. And that's in a metro area of 3 million. Honestly, with the exception of a small group of places like Brooks Brothers, J. Crew and Banana Republic, I can't even remember the last time I went to a mall. Maybe the last time I bought a suit. Although even then it was Jos. A. Bank in a lifestyle center. Malls everywhere are fading.

Random and probably contradictory thoughts... Curious as to why enclosed malls are fading. I would much rather be in a climate controlled space. Although I rarely go to the malls any more (exception being to a specialty store that isn't located elsewhere). Often shop in the strip mall set up but rarely go to any adjoining stores other than the main one I am there for. If it is right next door I might, but if it is at the other end of the strip...probably not. Usually because of the wonderfully wacky Oklahoma weather...too hot/cold/wet/icy/ or extreme weather condition. Seems that the difference is the strip malls don't have really good anchor stores at each end so that you might stop in the non-destination stores between (like the traditional enclosed mall). I am more of a one-stop shopper...get in, get out, done. Not repeat process 2, 4 or 8 times (depending on number of stores visited).

Random and probably contradictory thoughts... Curious as to why enclosed malls are fading. I would much rather be in a climate controlled space. Although I rarely go to the malls any more (exception being to a specialty store that isn't located elsewhere). Often shop in the strip mall set up but rarely go to any adjoining stores other than the main one I am there for. If it is right next door I might, but if it is at the other end of the strip...probably not. Usually because of the wonderfully wacky Oklahoma weather...too hot/cold/wet/icy/ or extreme weather condition. Seems that the difference is the strip malls don't have really good anchor stores at each end so that you might stop in the non-destination stores between (like the traditional enclosed mall). I am more of a one-stop shopper...get in, get out, done. Not repeat process 2, 4 or 8 times (depending on number of stores visited).
You (and I) are not the target demographic for mall/lifestyle center shopping, most men older than 30 are not. They prefer the ones who will walk the mall and stop in most stores whether it is an enclosed mall or open air lifestyle center.

I'm hearing some rumblings about a large southside church having interest in buying the building for a large multi-purpose ministry center.

Well that sucks...

So all southside can get is more churches, community colleges, and car dealerships?

Pathetic.

They should just bulldoze the area, and let someone build a theme park there, as it would be more fun, than a church, which we have plenty of on southside.

Where is the retail here? The bookstores?

EDIT: Oh and the only reason our mall is dying, isn't due to southsiders not supporting it, it's due to the fact greedy people owned it, who never listened to their merchant's wishes. Had the mall been renovated, it would be different. However, since it has floors from 1974, there is no reason for merchants to flock to a mall that is stuck in the 70's.

We couldn't put a gun to the head of those who owned the mall, and say, "make better decisions."

megax11, do you really think it's wise to be at the top of a roller coaster or the ferris wheel to watch the view of trash flowing around in the wind nearby?

Well that sucks...

So all southside can get is more churches, community colleges, and car dealerships?

Pathetic.

They should just bulldoze the area, and let someone build a theme park there, as it would be more fun, than a church, which we have plenty of on southside.

Where is the retail here? The bookstores?EDIT: Oh and the only reason our mall is dying, isn't due to southsiders not supporting it, it's due to the fact greedy people owned it, who never listened to their merchant's wishes. Had the mall been renovated, it would be different. However, since it has floors from 1974, there is no reason for merchants to flock to a mall that is stuck in the 70's.

We couldn't put a gun to the head of those who owned the mall, and say, "make better decisions."

Just a side note: the Southside is getting a book store, Half Price Books is opening a store at I-240 & Penn. I would prefer a Barnes & Noble, Hastings or Borders, but it's better then nothing.