After reading that article, seems to me the management is clearly in the dark and unaware of what is going on. Quote from the article:

Jim Swenson, mall manager. -- "I don’t pay a lot of attention to it — I know it’s not so,” he said. "We have 120 stores here, we’ve got the line-up. It’s not a vacant mall by any stretch of the imagination."

I don't expect him to come out and say the mall is dying, but come on, he does need to be realistic.

I have to admit - it had been years (many) since I last stepped inside Crossroads Mall. What I found, quite frankly, did not match the gangland image given by some. True, I was there on a Friday morning, but really, it was at its heart a very nice mall. I'd even take my kids there if it were on my side of town. As I pointed out in the story, it doesn't look like Heritage Park Mall or Shepherd Mall. But the loss of all of the anchors is a challenge - I'm not sure any malls this size have survived without them.

Swenson brags about the other 120 stores; however, I can guarantee some of those stores are going to close up shop after the holidays. The small store retailers tend to close stores if the store is not making sales or foot traffic numbers.

At the small store level it is easy to move the stock and employees to other locations in the metro. Worst case scenario laying off 5-10 employees and discounting merchandise for quick sale will not hurt the national retailers like Victoria's Secret, Gap, American Eagle and Journey's.

Bottom line when the cost operating becomes more than the income the store closes.

Great story, Steve - the picture of Patience Latting, etc, cutting the ribbon flashed me back to that very day.

The crowds were huge and those of us who worked at the mall had to park out on the very edge of the parking lot. I was assistant manager at Frederick's and we sold more in one day than we had sold in a month at the MWC location.

I wish they could revive Crossroads, but have very little hope it'll happen.

Here is a story that I ran across today in the St. Louis paper about the effort to save an older mall up there.

St. Louis Post-Dispatch - The fight to save a dying mall (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/developmenteconomy/story/2D783124CEAF437D862575170013B3D9?OpenDocument)

It kind of sounds like they have the same problems as Crossroads. Gangbangers running away the real shoppers and a crumbling neighborhood.

In my opinion the biggest mistake Crossroads ever made was building on the Old Best Buy shopping center which pretty much blocked the mall. I know of several people who have stated something along the lines of. "I thought that place was pretty much empty or closed."

They should have built the center on the backside of the mall in the large parking lots that have never been used since the mid 80's.

Then they could have recruited Wal-Mart, Target, and Sears. To come to the mall or build a new store.

Some of you may laugh at the Wal-Mart suggestion;however, the Mall of Louisana and Cortana Mall in Baton Rouge are booming because of all the big box retail they have dotted on the perimitter of the mall.

I've been working on a class (individual) project to tackle the redevelopment of Crossroads into a TOD. Everything you see below is hypothetical. I'm also working on a SketchUp version to better illustrate massing, setbacks, layout, and overall site design. It's not 100% yet, but I felt it was close enough to post on here.

What does everyone think about the sites potential for TOD?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ptownsnwbrdr/Crossroads_Redevelopment_11.png?t=1228750456

After reading that article, seems to me the management is clearly in the dark and unaware of what is going on. Quote from the article:

Jim Swenson, mall manager. -- "I don’t pay a lot of attention to it — I know it’s not so,” he said. "We have 120 stores here, we’ve got the line-up. It’s not a vacant mall by any stretch of the imagination."

I don't expect him to come out and say the mall is dying, but come on, he does need to be realistic.

I agree. Of course he has to "promote" his business, but at the same time you need to be realistic and face the facts. He's either in denial or clueless. And the 120 tenants thing seems questionable to me. I've been in there about a month or so ago, and I sure didn't see 120 tenants. Maybe 30 or so. Maybe he meant they have 120 retail spaces (doesn't mean they are all occupied, there is no way I see how).

I don't know how any mall can survive without anchors. I guess we shall see what happens. Now that Steve & Barrys is leaving I really won't have any desire to go to that mall.

Well, Steve & Barry's leaving wasn't necessarily Crossroad's fault since they are closing all the stores. They are just another victim of that circumstance.

ptownsnwbrdr,

Nice work. Will be nice to see it when its done.

If a mall next to a busy rail line and an ever growing landfill is a bad idea, I'm uncertain how a mixed use office residential, with scads of green space, is a better idea. As far as fitting the available footprint, looks like a decent use of the property shape as it sits today.

But is it a better use of the space? That's a right interesting question. It also doesn't seem to take into account any significant changes down the road for an improved 35/240 connection, and that seems to ultimately be necessary, at least in some form.

i think it is a good place for dump hill number 2

i think it is a good place for dump hill number 2

ummm... excuse me... that's mount trashmore to you.

-M

so sorry mmm... to bad they cant shred some white paper or tear up some pillows at the top of trashmore (snow capped mountain) to make the holidays seem bright in that area.

If a mall next to a busy rail line and an ever growing landfill is a bad idea, I'm uncertain how a mixed use office residential, with scads of green space, is a better idea. As far as fitting the available footprint, looks like a decent use of the property shape as it sits today.

But is it a better use of the space? That's a right interesting question. It also doesn't seem to take into account any significant changes down the road for an improved 35/240 connection, and that seems to ultimately be necessary, at least in some form.

Curious to know what would be a better use of space?

Walmart or TOD?

The site needs sustainability and the only way to do that is to get people to live and work in the same area. Malls are an incredible waste of space. If commuter rail is ever viable and corridors are identified, providing service to redevelop-able sites can be just as important in the long term as providing service to areas already built out. Doing both seems optimal. This site provides a unique opportunity to create a pedestrian oriented atmosphere teeming with retail, office, residential, and transit alternatives. Intensities and site layout can change, but a mixed-use approach could ensure a quality developments' future much longer than that of a typical mall.

With as much concern as so many people have about Crossroads closing why doesn't everyone involved pitch in and buy the mall and do whatever the majority deems necessary. There are more things in OKC that need attention thatn Crossroads Mall....Don't you think?

well they alrady have te huge parking lot, i wonder if a auto mall would be good at that location, lets say bob howard rents out the old jcpennies building and half of the parking lot, the lot on the west sides, thats a thought?

I've been working on a class (individual) project to tackle the redevelopment of Crossroads into a TOD. Everything you see below is hypothetical. I'm also working on a SketchUp version to better illustrate massing, setbacks, layout, and overall site design. It's not 100% yet, but I felt it was close enough to post on here.

What does everyone think about the sites potential for TOD?

Nicely done. My only suggestion would be to have the boulevard coming out of the Rail station line up with/feed into the "gateway park".

I love the boulevard running to/from the commuter rail station. This would be a beautiful addition to South OKC. It would also be the type of development that may attract Class A office tenants. This is something else that is needed in South OKC.

I have a question, though. This is not meant as a jab. I truly would like to know. Which came first, the mall or the landfill? It seems severely short-sighted for a mall developer to build next to a landfill. Likewise, it seems really problematic locating a massive landfill next to a mall. How did this happen? Who was in charge? What were they thinking?

I think that this location will be difficult to redevelop as a commercial or residential site with that mountain of stinking, rotting, rodent infested garbage so close. Assuming there is a redevelopment, I think this site is destined to become a location for government service, a medical facility, or light industrial.

Why did they put a landfill so close to town?

I believe the landfill came long after the mall opened, maybe someone more familiar with the area can confirm.. That area to the east of Crossroads has always been more industrial than any other use.

and why put a landfill next to prime property where two major interstates cross, i can understand if they put it somewhere a little east of sooner road or something back then, but why so close to the city and major property? thats why there is so much open land off eastern, no one wants it

I've been working on a class (individual) project to tackle the redevelopment of Crossroads into a TOD. Everything you see below is hypothetical. I'm also working on a SketchUp version to better illustrate massing, setbacks, layout, and overall site design. It's not 100% yet, but I felt it was close enough to post on here.

What does everyone think about the sites potential for TOD?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ptownsnwbrdr/Crossroads_Redevelopment_11.png?t=1228750456

Cool. Good start. Like was said before, give the axis from the rail station and the angle of the park actual significance by connecting them...otherwise they make little sense. Then, celebrate the place where the diagonal axis crosses east-west axis. That would be an opportunity to create a city center, which is needed in this type of development.

While a community like this tends toward being a sustainable type development, what happens to the mall? My guess is that is goes in the landfill next door which is not beneficial to anybody. My point is this: It would be even more sustainable if you reused the existing structure and incorporated it into your site plan.

Besides, anybody can lay out a town on an empty site, but it takes some creativity to do it with what is already there=)

well the mall is tall enough and wide open spaces inside the mall, to me its big enough to add a enclosed year round theme park, kinda like the one in circus circus.. i can seea roller coaster in the middle and a ferris wheel. In the department stores just cut out the second floor and you have big spaces all inside the mall. Just a thought.

Cool. Good start. Like was said before, give the axis from the rail station and the angle of the park actual significance by connecting them...otherwise they make little sense. Then, celebrate the place where the diagonal axis crosses east-west axis. That would be an opportunity to create a city center, which is needed in this type of development.

While a community like this tends toward being a sustainable type development, what happens to the mall? My guess is that is goes in the landfill next door which is not beneficial to anybody. My point is this: It would be even more sustainable if you reused the existing structure and incorporated it into your site plan.

Besides, anybody can lay out a town on an empty site, but it takes some creativity to do it with what is already there=)

Well if you look closely, the existing axis (shopping district) is not a boulevard, it is a pedestrian through-way. Very wide and open, conducive to walking and biking. Think 16th St. in Denver. I originally looked at a direct through-way from the park to the train station, but the linear corridor it created was destructive to the road grid that best fit the site.

We don't need a city center, we have one, it's called downtown and if this were ever considered it would only be a train trip away. However, the development does have a very *Main St/City Center* feel throughout, especially in the area designated *shopping district* where many buildings would climb 4 floors with minimal setbacks.

Re: re-use of the mall.

While some facades and materials could be reused, there is no need for such a massive reuse of the entire mall. Reusing existing large format big box retail space (i.e. Dillards, Macy's) in its current state is nearly impossible. If you can show me a case where a mall has been reused as a mixed-use development as it currently stands, I am all ears, but from my experience there is no such place. The only thing even close maybe St. Louis' downtown mall, but even that is different.

For a better idea of this kind of development in practice check out Belmar (http://www.belmarcolorado.com/about.php) in Denver. Once a large indoor mall, now a sustainable (hopefully) mixed-used community oriented development.

Here is a dated aerial. Surface parking will eventually make way for garage parking and future mixed-use.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ptownsnwbrdr/Belmar-Oblique-1.png?t=1228838701

http://www.elkus-manfredi.com/images/beldrw.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/2168792604_9e46088a81.jpg?v=0

http://www.hubbuzz.com/images/cache/3dd91da8-c21f-4eda-8bb2-992e01625d57-2-Large.png

http://www.kristalsellsdenver.com/wp-content/files/Belmar-Colorado.jpg

Why did they put a landfill so close to town?

Actually, Oklahoma City has three landfills inside the city limits. There is one off NE 23rd and Sooner, I-40 and Rockwell and of course the one off Bryant. I thank when they built the landfills they did not anticipate rapid growth. Not mention when the landfills were planned OKC was mostly a rural city.

This landfill could be closed and "grassed-over". I read about one on the east coast somewhere that is a park.

It seems something like this would have to happen in order for a successful mixed-use redevelopment to happen.

where do you think they got the land for the oakland california airport.

where do you think they got the land for the oakland california airport.
NYC LaGuardia and Tokyo's Narita airports are both built on landfills. They redevelop landfill areas all the time in other parts of the country.

Candlestick Park is built on a landfill (not that this is a success story).

The deer from which my summer sausage was processed probably grazed on one; who knows?

Dell here in OKC was built on an old landfill. Do you remember all the months of soil remediation done on that spot before they started building?

a landfill so close to a river wow what was okc thinking at the time

well, it was pretty much a river in name only in the pre-MAPS days.

It wasn't a full on landfill, it was more like a place where the city disposed of concrete, brush and other debris.

well, it was pretty much a river in name only in the pre-MAPS days.

No, it was a river.

This landfill could be closed and "grassed-over". I read about one on the east coast somewhere that is a park.

It seems something like this would have to happen in order for a successful mixed-use redevelopment to happen.

I was wondering, too, if it could be "re-habbed". At what point does a landfill become FULL? That thing's gotta rival Black Mesa for tallest point in Oklahoma!

Cap the landfill, build bike and hiking trails all over it, and tap the methane it produces to partially power the TOD over at Crossroads.

20 years from now that dump by crossroads will have multi million dollar homes on it, ((((best view of downtown okc from mountain view estates, be the one of only a couple families to live on a mountain in oklahoma city, have everyone look up to you and you look down on them, be the best have the best buy a home in mountain view)))))... i can see it now lol

MAKE CROSSROADS A CASINO!! talk about a money maker.

I didn't know quite where to put these but they can kind of apply to Crossroads if redeveloped. Here are a few interesting articles about redevelopment and densification from Planetizen (http://www.planetizen.com/) which is a site dedicated to planning.

Planetizen.com - From Edge-City to Real City (http://www.planetizen.com/node/36451) talks about taking what has been a traditional Washington D.C. suburb (Tysons Corner, Virginia) to a more walkable city.

Planetizen.com - The Urban Shortcomings of 'L.A. Live' (http://www.planetizen.com/node/36350) discusses the lifestyle center that isn't designed to be a good neighbor. How it is just its own self-contained center and "turns its back" on Downtown LA.

That thing's gotta rival Black Mesa for tallest point in Oklahoma!

Hardly. Have you seen Mt. Scott?

> gotta rival Black Mesa for tallest point in Oklahoma

Black Mesa does not tower above the surrounding terrain, certainly not like Scott down near Lawton, or Buffalo or Kiamichi near Tuskahoma and Big Cedar, nor Cavanal or Sugarloaf near Poteau.

Black Mesa is the highest point in Oklahoma even though it rises only about 500 feet above the surrounding terrain. However, the base terrain in the NW corner of the panhandle is a greater elevation than any of the peaks elsewhere in the state.

While some facades and materials could be reused, there is no need for such a massive reuse of the entire mall. Reusing existing large format big box retail space (i.e. Dillards, Macy's) in its current state is nearly impossible. If you can show me a case where a mall has been reused as a mixed-use development as it currently stands, I am all ears, but from my experience there is no such place. The only thing even close maybe St. Louis' downtown mall, but even that is different.

That is actually what is planned with the Springfield Mall (http://www.springfieldtowncenter.com/plan.html) in northern Virginia: they are planning building the site into a mixed-use development, while (surprisingly) keeping the majority of the existing indoor mall. I was actually inside this mall a couple of years ago and it was in similar shape to Crossroads then (but Crossroads has declined a lot in the past couple years.) Regardless, I'm not sure if this type of redevelopment is possible with Crossroads...at least not in the form of a retail use. I know there is the Eastgate Metroplex in Tulsa that is being reused primarily for office uses, but I'm not sure if it is as high-profile of a development as what everyone wants to see Crossroads become.

However, if the Crossroads Mall complex were to be demolished, I do think that it would be possible and very beneficial to reuse at least one of the existing anchor buildings. There are many possible uses for these buildings - not just retail space! I read about a mall not too long ago (forgot where it was) that was redeveloped into a TOD; they demolished the entire mall with the exception of one of the department stores, which was redeveloped into a community center.

If they were to keep one of the anchor buildings, I'd go with the 3-story Dillards space, which has the best exterior.

I remember being very impressed as a kid that it had 3 floors.

Also, Walden Books is closing up in Crossroads Jan 31st..

Joe

found out for sure that Macy's OWNED their building. Even though it is a paet of the Mall, Macy's Owns the building it was in. Oh yeah, it's got Sale...Big sign out front....

Maybe Macy's will sell their lil' slice of heaven to the Valley Brook Improvement Association

Also, Walden Books is closing up in Crossroads Jan 31st..

Joe

The hits keep on coming for Crossroads. Hopefully they put a new bookstore on the southside Borders needs to look into putting a store on the southside perferbly in that new 240 Penn Center. as far as Crossroads is concerned My prediction will be American Eagle will be next to go.

Lets leave Valley Brook out of this... Because that is a thread that is worthy of it's own discussion... And I WOULD like to discuss it in depth on another thread...

I don;t know if you've nocticed this... But about 1 mile East of Crossroads."From eastern facing west".. There is alot of development going on.... about 4 new business' have built there this year along with the existing business' in the Crossroad Business park as it's called...

Budwieser put thier news distribution plant across i-240... With the rail line going through there and the way they are devolping the business....

It could be a good possability that Crossroad mall could be torn down, and the area become a small wharehouse distribution/retail point... Having Rail, and both a North/south and east/west interstate system availible.. 35 and 240...

as an example... It could be a good stageing area for Fed-ex, UPS... Frito-Lay, maybe even Coke moving frm May Ave... Are you catching my drift???

What I do feel will be hold up is that Best Buy, Texas RoadHouse, The two Movie theatre's there that have spent alot of money on a free standing buildings, would not want the area to be zoned that way....

But they could go for a Strip Mall kinda atmopshere.... But I forsee a giant truck stop.... ;)

Joe

Joe! this is off topic but do you know what is going in at I-40 and Sooner in Del-city? I went by there today and there is a huge clearing!But I will be sad to see anything happen to Crossroads! now there will be no malls on the south or east side since heritage is basically gone!

I don't think you would see FedEx or UPS where Crossroads is now...they already have facilities a few miles down I-240 at the airport, and I would guess they wouldn't need facilities so close. Also I'd SERIOUSLY doubt that the businesses in the perimeter of Crossroads would be a problem either: the old movie theater is practically worthless, and the Regal/AMC probably gets little business now, especially with the Warren a few miles down I-35 in Moore. I thought they were planning on tearing up the strip mall and Best Buy (which has stores in Moore and Norman off I-35) for the interchange construction? Regardless, there probably aren't too many businesses there that are *that* willing to stay. The site probably isn't good for retail, considering the new "power centers" west on I-240 as well as in Moore.

By Kevinpate
"Black Mesa does not tower above the surrounding terrain, certainly not like Scott down near Lawton, or Buffalo or Kiamichi near Tuskahoma and Big Cedar, nor Cavanal or Sugarloaf near Poteau."

Actually, Sugarloaf is in Arkansas.

Yes.. I was at Sooner and i-40 just today and see what you mentioned, but I don;t have a clue what it is to tell ya the truth...

As to Crossroads... I just don;t really know... I was there last weekend and business seemed fair... But business last night at the strip mall on 240 and Penn were good too. Micheals, Pier 1 Petsmart... etc....

Some of the shops in CR looked to be a great place to get Ganster gear... and some of the clothing of today's youth.. Complete with chains that hang behind your butt that go to your knees....

The store that I really miss the most... Was the one at the end of the mall, that had all the Models, train sets, etc... He had the jeep in the front and in the back had the display case with German Luftwaffe uniforms, AMerican WW2 GI uniforms, and plane parts etc... That was a cool store. But it's been gone for years now, and I miss it every time I go in there.

Joe

I miss going to the Plantations cigar shop and having a cigar.

The hits keep on coming for Crossroads. Hopefully they put a new bookstore on the southside Borders needs to look into putting a store on the southside perferbly in that new 240 Penn Center. as far as Crossroads is concerned My prediction will be American Eagle will be next to go.

I doubt Borders will be opening new stores anytime soon. They are just barely hanging on now.

Anyone see the holiday commercials they're putting out for Crossroads right now? It seems they're not quite ready to give up...

I heard they are hiring Gil Gunderson as their new mascot.

http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/gil-gunderson-52872.jpg?1176846236

I think the upper level ought to remain retail, but the lower level could be converted to a retirement village for aged politicos. Place an opaque cover, thick, between the two levels, vent the lower level gases over to Mount Disposed to the east, and if we don't have enough politicos to fill it, well, DOC seems to ever be seeking more beds and County scarcely has room for the baddies, let alone the occasional legalbeagle who screams to go there. Fill-r-up and cap it off.

Surely as a new half mall it would seem fuller and bustling, and with enough piped in usic, one wouldn't even notice, much, the sad sighs from the lower level

After such talk of the demise of Crossroads, my brother had an incident happen there today and hopefully others would speak out. My brother parked his car, this guy had his emergency break on and later jumps out of his car over a ideotic confrontation that my brother took his parking spot. My brother walked towards him to see what was wrong and a family broke the two apart. Who knows that this psychotic guy could have been thinking... he could have killed my brother or something. He ends up keying his car unfortunately... last time i'll ever go to that wreck of a place again. Anyhow things like this can happen anywhere, just more of a chance in this locale.