# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Tulsa & Suburbs >  Tulsa the more well known and better developed city?

## Plutonic Panda

I just wanted to point out a couple  things I have noticed is virtually every single person I've talked with maybe one or two exceptions...

So the first thing is out here in SoCal, and most of the southwest(West New Mexico area, and Arizona) that 9.99 out of 10 people have all asked where OKC is in relation to Tulsa or how far it is from Tulsa when I mentioned I am from OKC.

Also, everyone I talked who have to be both cities with a single exception have all said they like Tulsa much better.

This is very interesting to me.

When I moved out here, I moved with a whole new outlook on life. I'm trying to become a better person and I'm trying to ask more questions and understand rather than talk. Everyone that was familiar with both cities I would always ask them which city they like better. I never gave them my opinion of Tulsa which some here know I used to hate the city. 

Say what you want and I'm sure there are going to be people that are going to use the then vs now argument that is constantly used in defense of 2015 Oklahoma City, but after taking with probably 100+ people who all pretty much say the same thing I'm really coming to the conclusion that Tulsa is the better city in Oklahoma and I'm finding out the reason of why Tulsa is getting better retail first; what I am finding keeps getting more true with each person I talk with.

I just wanted to share that because I though it was interesting.

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## dankrutka

I'm glad you're taking a thoughtful approach. That's not easy to do... But I think you're asking the wrong questions.

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## adaniel

Um, okay.....

You asked random people in LA their opinion, so clearly they must be right.

I'm not understanding where you're going with this.

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## Plutonic Panda

Adaniel, you really need to think before you post. Did you even read what I said? I clearly state the southwest. Yes, I'm going to trust all of the people I've been talking to especially over someone who thinks Dallas has bad traffic.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I'm glad you're taking a thoughtful approach. That's not easy to do... But I think you're asking the wrong questions.


I'm not sure what you mean. I just thought it was really interesting because I always pictured OKC as the most dominant and well known city yet hardly anyone I've talked to knows where it is but most know where Tulsa is. It really surprises me and I would think it should be the opposite.

Even with all that is under construction right now, it won't change much. 

BTW, I'm not trying to hate on OKC. I left out that I actually told most of the people I talked to at the end what was happening in OKC and they seemed impressed. I'm defending OKC mainly because it's my home, but I still can't believe how out of the picture it is especially with all the recent press and Thunder games.

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## bchris02

Tulsa is prettier, it's more compact, and has historically had an arts and cultural scene leaps and bounds ahead of OKC's (though they no longer are as far ahead as they once were).   Also, Tulsa wouldn't be what it is if they weren't lucky enough to have George Kaiser.  They have amenities most metro areas under 1 million would kill for.  Though both OKC and Tulsa's urban core suffered much neglect following the 1980s oil crash, I don't think Tulsa ever fell as far as OKC did.  Prior to the Devon Tower's construction, Tulsa had the better skyline.   Prior to the Thunder's arrival, OKC simply wasn't on the radar for people outside of this region.  Tulsa was better known, if only for its frequent mention in country songs and Chandler moving there in "Friends."  OKC was that "city you passed through and stopped for gas and McDs" on your cross-country I-40 road trip.  With all of that said, stereotypes and perceptions take a long, long time to change.  A lot of OKC's most remarkable improvements have occurred in just the past five years.  The next five years should be even bigger.  

Within a decade, barring a major economic catastrophe, nobody will be able to say with a straight face that Tulsa is ahead of OKC.  People may like Tulsa better for various reasons, but post-MAPS3 OKC will offer amenities that Tulsa won't and the list of things Tulsa has that OKC doesn't will keep diminishing.  Eventually perception will change.

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## TU 'cane

> Um, okay.....
> 
> You asked random people in LA their opinion, so clearly they must be right.
> 
> I'm not understanding where you're going with this.


I don't believe the OP was going anywhere in particular with the mindset you mention. He's met some folks out West and when he mentions where he's from, Tulsa seems to pop up more often. His sample batch is not representative of the whole to us, but perhaps to him it is, given his perspective. We've all ran into scenarios like this and we discuss/debate all the time on this forum. Ex. What geographic region is OK? We all have different experiences and stories from outsiders' perspectives that we mention. I believe that's all Plu Pan was doing here. 

-

Plu Pan, on top once being known as the "Oil Capital of the World," (something not given up until the 1970s-1980s, here's a little more to add on to a possible reason Tulsa's "more well known" amongst _some_ people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBnm-qu5Rtc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6MbPWzIFUk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn7uFyPZAj8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC82ewG-Qu0


Additional reading: List of songs about Oklahoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's just one of those things, Tulsa had some "pop" to it back in the day, it was the next big up and coming city. 
I always hear how people are shocked that Tulsa has less than 1 million people, and that's because they always thought Tulsa was a BIG city due to how popular it was. 

Tulsa rolls off the tongue easier too, so I'm sure that plays into it's mentions in movies, etc. over Oklahoma City.

However, the shift has already happened. OKC is by far the more well known city now thanks to the Thunder. 
And as bchris said, if OKC keeps it's current momentum, Tulsa will be left in it's shadow instead of the reverse. Tulsa's developments are just not as significant as OKC's. But, they occur at a rate that keeps the city in line just enough, see the River Spirit expansion or the new Gathering Place park, for example.

Edit: just came across this, Tulsa's music scene (not just talking about the Hanson Brothers...) has always been top notch and envied to add to some of the points above:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downt...371636f66.html

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## Colbafone

Idk man. I've spent a ton of time in southern California, as well as around Seattle, all over the great plains and the South, and I think while nearly everyone would agree Tulsa has a prettier geographical location, everyone I have ever talked to knows the importance of Okc compared to Tulsa. It's one thing to say Tulsa is prettier, but Okc is definitely more of the driving force in Oklahoma. Especially now, wwith the Thunder and Devon tower. Tulsa has always been a cool city to me, but what Okc has done since the first Maps is incredible. Many people in the know throughout the country know about this. Okc is no secret, anywhere in the US.

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## Pete

I've lived in Southern California for 25 years, virtually everyone who knows me knows I'm from Oklahoma and I can't remember anyone mentioning Tulsa.  Very, very few people have been to OKC or Tulsa let alone both, so I've never, ever heard anyone give an opinion of one over the other.

If people know anything at all about the state it's about OU football and now the Thunder.  To a lesser extent tornadoes, oil business, etc.

Also, when I tell people that OKC is becoming a boom town, virtually everyone says something like, "Yeah, that's what I hear."


Especially in L.A., people know Oklahoma City because of the NBA and specifically that we've been better than the Lakers and Clippers (apart from this year).  EVERYONE knows Kevin Durant.  Most know Russell Westbrook as well, as he went to UCLA.

When they give basketball scores, the Thunder is often referenced as simply 'OKC'.  And now with the Dodgers tie-in, OKC is only going to be more known to people here.


I completely refute and reject your conclusions.

As to whether Tulsa is prettier or better developed, that's a complete separate discussion.

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## bradh

Tulsa matters to people in the arts (maybe that's who he is hanging with in LA?)

OKC matters to everyone else

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## Motley

I've lived in Cincinnati, Oregon, Texas, and So. Cal since 1989, and I can say no one has ever asked or cared about OKC or Tulsa.  Mention OK, and the comments are about OU football and tornadoes and doesn't OK have lots of snow in the winter.  I don't hear any comments about the cities.  Do get jokes about being a bumpkin.  If someone has visited OKC recently, I get positive comments.  More than one said it kind of reminds them of Denver.

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## Bellaboo

> I'm not sure what you mean. I just thought it was really interesting because I always pictured OKC as the most dominant and well known city yet hardly anyone I've talked to knows where it is but most know where Tulsa is. It really surprises me and I would think it should be the opposite.
> 
> Even with all that is under construction right now, it won't change much. 
> 
> BTW, I'm not trying to hate on OKC.* I left out that I actually told most of the people I talked to at the end what was happening in OKC and they seemed impressed*. I'm defending OKC mainly because it's my home, but I still can't believe how out of the picture it is especially with all the recent press and Thunder games.


You explained it right here - those people you are talking too don't know OKC.

You talk to anyone that knows anything about the NBA ?

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## Pete

> Tulsa matters to people in the arts (maybe that's who he is hanging with in LA?)


I can assure you that people in California don't think Tulsa matters in the arts in even a very minor way.

I say this with all due respect to Tulsa and the Oklahoma art scene, but L.A. and San Francisco are world-class cities when it comes to virtually all the arts.  People out here only think about New York and Europe when it comes to these sorts of things; not even Chicago let alone Tulsa or OKC.

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## adaniel

> I don't believe the OP was going anywhere in particular with the mindset you mention. He's met some folks out West and when he mentions where he's from, Tulsa seems to pop up more often. His sample batch is not representative of the whole to us, but perhaps to him it is, given his perspective. We've all ran into scenarios like this and we discuss/debate all the time on this forum. Ex. What geographic region is OK? We all have different experiences and stories from outsiders' perspectives that we mention. I believe that's all Plu Pan was doing here.


Fair enough. It just seems very anecdotal and certainly not in line with experiences I've had, nor others.

Keep in mind I have  quite a bit of family in that area, moreso Las Vegas than SoCal, but all lived in the LA area at one point and LV is pretty much an extension of Southern California these days. When I've been there and hung out with their friends, Tulsa has never entered the conversation, good or bad. But most people are fairly familiar with OKC. My uncle's neighbor lived in Long Beach and is acquainted with Russell Westbrook's family. While making small talk, he kinda asked me all these questions about what's OKC like, I hear good things about it, do they really get all those tornadoes, blah blah blah. This was a few years ago, but my general experience was people were not super familiar with OKC but had a generally positive impression of it and wanted to learn more. 

Also of note is there is fairly strong in-migration from SoCal to the entire I-35 corridor, from OKC all the way down to San Antonio. Tulsa is largely absent from this. That's not a slam against Tulsa, but OKC has always "looked west" in its outlook, Tulsa is the opposite. 

Something else to consider. A lot of OKC based institutions like Sonic and Mathis Brothers are quite popular in SoCal, or at least in areas I've seen.

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## Pete

By the way -- and I've made this point elsewhere -- we really need to stop with this obsession of how the state and OKC are perceived.

The constant longing for external validation reminds me of the needy girl no one wants to date.

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## Bullbear

My Partner is from LA.. he moved here 5 years ago.. we have lots of friends in LA area and SF and San Diego. I can't say I share your observation of people at all.  I agree with Pete most have never been to either city and know OKC now especially due to Thunder. Also sadly most people know OKC due to the Bombing.

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## bradh

> I can assure you that people in California don't think Tulsa matters in the arts in even a very minor way.
> 
> I say this with all due respect to Tulsa and the Oklahoma art scene, but L.A. and San Francisco are world-class cities when it comes to virtually all the arts.  People out here only think about New York and Europe when it comes to these sorts of things; not even Chicago let alone Tulsa or OKC.


Pete...with all due respect, you don't say?  :Wink:  

I really was just trying to make some sort of an attempt to excuse the OP

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## Pete

> Pete...with all due respect, you don't say?  
> 
> I really was just trying to make some sort of an attempt to excuse the OP


I understand that.

But I know tons of artists and actors and musicians out here.   :Smile:

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## hfry

Well said Bullbear. Sadly in France about 6 years ago, telling people I was from Oklahoma I was immediately asked if I lived in Oklahoma city and if I was near the bombing.  But the point has been made already but truly what does it matter. I love this city, all of its flaw and strengths and I am more than excited about where it is headed. To me that matters much more than a small survey, no offense PluPan. Truly glad that you are enjoying SoCo and it seems the the type of city that you were needing!

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## BG918

In Denver most people I know don't really know much about Oklahoma.  The know the Thunder but aside from the team being in OKC don't know or care about the city where the Thunder plays (aside from "this city has great fans" when watching high profile or playoff games).  Also OU football when the team is highly ranked or playing a nationally televised game.  But little about OU itself and Norman, or that it's part of the OKC metro, is typically known.  I still get "did you go to the orange one or red one" when I tell people I graduated from OU.  Some even say "Ohio?" and I have to clarify no Oklahoma!  

The ones that have been to Oklahoma typically have driven through on their way somewhere else.  In that they say the eastern half is much prettier than the western half.  If they drive through OKC they comment that the Devon Tower is really cool but looks completely out of place because it's so tall.  Or if they drive through Tulsa they've commented on the bad condition of the highways (probably either the BA or 75 both of which are terrible).  

They generally lump Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska and the Dakotas into one area "the eastern Plains".  When I said I grew up in Tulsa one said "oh that's in the nice part of Oklahoma".

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## bchris02

Neither of Oklahoma's cities are large enough or important enough to be on the radar for a lot of people outside this region.  When most people think of Oklahoma, they don't think of cities.  They think of the Thunder, oil, tornadoes, the bombing, and the religious right.  They don't know a lot about it outside of that.   OKC is a pass-through city for a lot of people taking cross-country trips.  With that said, TU'cane makes some excellent points above about why Tulsa might be more well-known amongst some people.   When was the last time OKC was mentioned in a song or a movie?

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## Bellaboo

[QUOTE=bchris02;888921]Neither of Oklahoma's cities are larger enough or important enough to be on the radar for a lot of people outside this region.  When most people think of Oklahoma, they don't think of cities.  They think of the Thunder, oil, tornadoes, the bombing, and the religious right.  They don't know a lot about it outside of that.   OKC is a pass-through city for a lot of people taking cross-country trips.  With that said, TU'cane makes some excellent points above about why Tulsa might be more well-known amongst some people.  * When was the last time OKC was mentioned in a song or a movie?[/*QUOTE]

Rudderless - 2015,

TV series Saving Grace -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saving_Grace_(TV_series) Ran from 2007 - 2010

And this little documentary that was running as of last week - http://newsok.com/movie-review-oklah...rticle/5408771

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## adaniel

Tulsa has been mentioned in the media much more lately, although largely for the wrong reasons. 

The First 48 Tulsa, OK Cast - A&E

Death of Man Shot by Reserve Deputy Ruled a Homicide - ABC News

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## bchris02

> And this little documentary that was running as of last week - Movie review: 'Oklahoma City: The Boom, the Bust and the Bomb' | News OK


Was that even showing outside of Oklahoma?

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## Pete

> TU'cane makes some excellent points above about why Tulsa might be more well-known amongst some people.   When was the last time OKC was mentioned in a song or a movie?


*I* hadn't even heard of three of those referenced songs and I lived in Oklahoma the first 29 years of my life and during the period when they were recorded.  

This a massive reach in the first place and even sillier to try and forward it as some sort of legitimate explanation for a highly dubious conclusion (that most people in Southern Cal think more often and highly of Tulsa than OKC) based one person's 2-week experience versus people that have lived here for decades.

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## Mel

Tulsa has only 2 syllables and is easier to say. Other than a brief mention in  "Route 66" we never got a song as cool as 'Living on Tulsa Time".

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## Pete

> Tulsa has only 2 syllables and is easier to say. Other than a brief mention in  "Route 66" we never got a song as cool as 'Living on Tulsa Time".


Tulsa Time never even hit the Top 100 on Billboard and it was released 37 years ago.

Strictly a C&W hit and very, very few people in Southern California listen to that type of music.

I bet I could ask 100 of my friends if they have ever heard of it and not get one positive response.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I've lived in Southern California for 25 years, virtually everyone who knows me knows I'm from Oklahoma and I can't remember anyone mentioning Tulsa.  Very, very few people have been to OKC or Tulsa let alone both, so I've never, ever heard anyone give an opinion of one over the other.
> 
> If people know anything at all about the state it's about OU football and now the Thunder.  To a lesser extent tornadoes, oil business, etc.
> 
> Also, when I tell people that OKC is becoming a boom town, virtually everyone says something like, "Yeah, that's what I hear."
> 
> 
> Especially in L.A., people know Oklahoma City because of the NBA and specifically that we've been better than the Lakers and Clippers (apart from this year).  EVERYONE knows Kevin Durant.  Most know Russell Westbrook as well, as he went to UCLA.
> 
> ...


go right ahead I don't care. I have no reason to lie here man. I am speaking of my own personal experiences Pete. I've talked to a lot of people over the past month and quite a few added in about what they know about the place.

The people I met were at malls, bars, restaurants, on the bus or train, Uber drivers, my new job etc. 

I don't know what to tell you. If you don't want to believe me or want to refute my claims, than that allows me to see an even bigger picture of what I previously thought.

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## Pete

Never said you were lying.

Just don't believe what you characterized is anywhere near the full reality.

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## Plutonic Panda

> You explained it right here - those people you are talking too don't know OKC.
> 
> You talk to anyone that knows anything about the NBA ?


I honestly didn't talk about sports much. There were a couple mentions of the Thunder, but that's about it. I haven't been really going to sports bars though or something sporty, so that's probably why.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Never said you were lying.
> 
> Just don't believe what you characterized is anywhere near the full reality.


well, I'm not sure what to say.

I just posted what I had experienced first hand. This is my first long trip by myself and i stopped at many tourist stuff and restaurants and always made it a point to talk with people.

Perhaps the more people I get to know, the opinion might change, I don't know. I can just tell you that I swear on my life what I said is what I have heard and I'm not excited about it and I'm really shocked.

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## Bullbear

I'm really not going to worry much about polling people in other places to justify what city is more well known or developing.

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## Urbanized

> ...The ones that have been to Oklahoma typically have driven through on their way somewhere else...


You've hit on one thing that gives us a bit of a negative hit when it comes to perception. Over the years I have worked many consumer trade shows on behalf of the Oklahoma tourism industry, plus have spoken with many thousands of people who were visiting OKC for the first time. It's pretty common for people who are from the region to say they have been to OKC, but on further questioning they have driven through and not stopped other than for gas.

Usually, if people make it off of the highway here they have completely unexpected positive experience. The problem is that many, many people experience OKC only from the highway, and we really drew the short straw there, with the highway viewscape not matching the actual community closely at all. Problem is, when someone drives through here - and passes miles of cheap hotels, weary strip centers and dusty yards full of oilfield equipment - they think they have "been there."

There is also something to be said for coastal bias, where people from the east and west coasts think of everything in this part of the world as "flyover country" and don't know us from Fort Smith, Des Moines, Omaha, Kansas City or Albuquerque. 

Other than that I think most of the perception of OKC is nonexistent. As in, people know very little about us at all.

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## LocoAko

> Neither of Oklahoma's cities are large enough or important enough to be on the radar for a lot of people outside this region.  When most people think of Oklahoma, they don't think of cities.  They think of the Thunder, oil, tornadoes, the bombing, and the religious right.  They don't know a lot about it outside of that.   OKC is a pass-through city for a lot of people taking cross-country trips.  With that said, TU'cane makes some excellent points above about why Tulsa might be more well-known amongst some people.   When was the last time OKC was mentioned in a song or a movie?


This has been my general experience as well. Beating a dead horse here, but back home in NJ/NYC, very few people know much of anything about Oklahoma. At best, they know it for tornadoes and then the Thunder if they're into sports. Given most people's terrible sense of geography in this country, I doubt if most of my friends could even find it on a map if it weren't for our distinct and well-known shape (I once had someone ask me how often I took daytrips to Chicago... the myopia of those on the coasts can be astounding sometimes lol). I think 95% of what my social circle knows about Oklahoma comes from my Facebook ramblings/posts, so hooray for being an unofficial ambassador for Oklahoma, I guess. 

If I had to guess, I think Tulsa seems prettier on first glance when people are stopping through quickly, so I could see it giving a better initial impression. Beyond that I'm just simply surprised to hear that most people on the West Coast have an opinion about either city at all.

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## Jesseda

I am from California I have lived here in Moore  most of my life but travel back often and have several relatives who live from San Diego up all the way to Chico and its more the other way around, They know about OKC but nothing  really about Tulsa, when I tell them Tulsa has about a million people in their metro my relatives respond " Really that many"! And when I tell them okc has about 1.3 million in its metro their response is usually " That's all, I thought there was more people  then that in okc "!  The majority of my relatives ( which is a lot my mom is one of 11 kids and my dad is one of 14 so I have literally 60 plus first cousins which more then 3/4 still live in California )  thinks okc is a middle size city while Tulsa is just a small city.

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## Bellaboo

> Was that even showing outside of Oklahoma?


Does it matter ? 
The others are/were national. 

I didn't mention 'Pearl' about the Chickasaw woman aviator, but some scenes were from various local locations. 

Hell, the Oklahoma City Thunder were on TV over 80 times this past season (25 National broadcasts at that).

As far as exposure goes, it's probably cut and dried in OKC's favor.

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## adaniel

> This has been my general experience as well. Beating a dead horse here, but back home in NJ/NYC, very few people know much of anything about Oklahoma. At best, they know it for tornadoes and then the Thunder if they're into sports. Given most people's terrible sense of geography in this country, I doubt if most of my friends could even find it on a map if it weren't for our distinct and well-known shape .......Beyond that I'm just simply surprised to hear that most people on the West Coast have an opinion about either city at all.


Just tell them its the frying pan hitting Texas on the head! 

Oklahoma and California have a weird cultural connection, so it doesn't surprise me that more people on the west coast know about OK than those on the east.

I work in the land department of an oil company that has quite a bit of oil and gas interests in Roger Mills County and the Panhandle. I would guess 40-50% of our mineral owners in this area are from California or a surrounding state. These are the decedents of the Okies who have inherited their mineral rights.

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## bchris02

> You've hit on one thing that gives us a bit of a negative hit when it comes to perception. Over the years I have worked many consumer trade shows on behalf of the Oklahoma tourism industry, plus have spoken with many thousands of people who were visiting OKC for the first time. It's pretty common for people who are from the region to say they have been to OKC, but on further questioning they have driven through and not stopped other than for gas.
> 
> Usually, if people make it off of the highway here they have completely unexpected positive experience. The problem is that many, many people experience OKC only from the highway, and we really drew the short straw there, with the highway viewscape not matching the actual community closely at all. Problem is, when someone drives through here - and passes miles of cheap hotels, weary strip centers and dusty yards full of oilfield equipment - they think they have "been there."


I agree with this.

The Skydance Bridge is nice because it is something memorable that passers through see other than cheap motels, industrial warehouses, or yards of oil equipment. I think more should be done to improve and beautify I-40 going through OKC to promote a better perception.  I really like what ODOT has done with I-44 in Tulsa.

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## Pete

Far less people take long cross-country car trips than they used to.

It's simply way cheaper to fly these days, plus people are far more pressed for time.

I agree OKC doesn't put it's best foot forward when passing through via the interstate, but other than those in the surrounding areas, I don't think too many people from California (or most other places) are passing through anyway.

Ironically, the one person I know who did do this said she stopped at Kitchen no. 324 for lunch.  Must have used Yelp or something similar...  And she raved about Kitchen, of course.

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## ZYX2

Much cheaper to fly? Maybe for one person, but for a family, it is _much_ cheaper to drive.

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## OklahomaNick

Something I did not know of until recently was that there is some anonymity from the people that live in Tulsa towards OKC. 

People from Tulsa are very prideful and proud of their city, which is GREAT! But the claws come out if someone who lives in Tulsa tells their Tulsa friends they are moving to OKC. I have heard this from multiple people (including my wife), and I always thought it was very interesting. I think some it comes from the fact that Tulsa is really a strong OSU town and OKC is a strong OU town. 

As an OKC guy I grew up liking Tulsa because I thought it was cool that Oklahoma had 2 big cities! And it's awesome seeing Tulsa doing some great development projects! A rising tide lifts all ships in my opinion and it's helpful to both OKC and Tulsa when both are doing well! It's good for the state!

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## Urbanized

> Far less people take long cross-country car trips than they used to.
> 
> It's simply way cheaper to fly these days, plus people are far more pressed for time.
> 
> I agree OKC doesn't put it's best foot forward when passing through via the interstate, but other than those in the surrounding areas, I don't think too many people from California (or most other places) are passing through anyway.
> 
> Ironically, the one person I know who did do this said she stopped at Kitchen no. 324 for lunch.  Must have used Yelp or something similar...  And she raved about Kitchen, of course.


Yeah, I honestly think it is more of an issue for people from surrounding states. They are the ones driving through the most often, and are less likely to stop for leisure unless this is their destination. Compound that with the fact that people in places like Dallas are somewhat predisposed to not having a favorable view of Oklahoma and it leads to some misconception and quick acceptance of the place as a dump. That said, our reputation, especially as a family getaway destination, is LIGHT YEARS ahead of where it was even ten years ago, regionally. I used to have people at Dallas consumer shows scoff and laugh in my face at the idea of coming to Oklahoma for a pleasure trip. Nowadays the reaction is usually somewhere between "OMG we go there all of the time and it's awesome" to "my sister-in-law takes her kids up there all of the time and raves about it...we really need to check it out soon..."

I can't stress how much ground we have made up in this regard, especially regionally.

By the way, not to turn this into a CC debate, but this is one of the rarely-discussed impacts that building a quality convention center will have, and in a way that will never really make it to the balance sheet. I have on multiple occasions spoken with people on trips here whose first visit to OKC was a conference, prompting them to come back at a later date, either as part of another trip or with OKC as primary destination. I specifically recall speaking with a woman a while back who had been here for a conference the year before and planned her entire vacation for central Oklahoma (from SOCAL) because she liked it so much.

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## Pete

> Much cheaper to fly? Maybe for one person, but for a family, it is _much_ cheaper to drive.


From L.A. to OKC and points beyond?  You also have at least two nights in a hotel (one night each way) and meals for at least four full days.

I bet it's close to break even for a family of four and it saves you almost two days each way.


In any event, I know virtually no one that has traveled that far from here in a car.  I've only done it once in the 25 years I've lived out here.

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## Swake

> Tulsa Time never even hit the Top 100 on Billboard and it was released 37 years ago.
> 
> Strictly a C&W hit and very, very few people in Southern California listen to that type of music.
> 
> I bet I could ask 100 of my friends if they have ever heard of it and not get one positive response.


Um, no.

The more famous version was by Eric Clapton, and isn't done in a C&W style, it's actually an example of The Tulsa Sound. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l86AYxdYoUo

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## Pete

> Um, no.
> 
> The more famous version was by Eric Clapton, and isn't done in a C&W style, it's actually an example of The Tulsa Sound. 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l86AYxdYoUo


Forgot about that.

Hit #30 in 1980.

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## bradh

still not better than Don Williams  :Smile:

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## Swake

> Forgot about that.
> 
> Hit #30 in 1980.


A Billboard chart number is far from the whole story. That Clapton song has been a mainstay on Classic Rock stations nationally for more than 30 years. Everyone also knows Bob Wills song Take Me Back to Tulsa even if they have never heard of Cains Ballroom. 

A big part of people knowing Tulsa is probably from music, books and movies. 

Across the county, many if not most, middle school/Jr High students read The Outsiders in class. Even if a kid doesnt read the book in school, its one of the four or five top selling young adult novels of all time, even today.  Then theres Coppolas Outsiders movie. SE Hintons other books, Tex and Rumblefish, have always sold well and they also became movies that show up on cable here and there. Weird Al was just in Tulsa for the 25th anniversary of his cult classic movie, UHF, filmed in Tulsa at a fictional TV station. In all of these Tulsa itself is a character in the story and not just a generic location. 


That said, I completely agree that today, the larger awareness is going to be of OKC and 99% of that is going to be from The Thunder. That is only more true in NBA mad LA.

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## TU 'cane

> *I* hadn't even heard of three of those referenced songs and I lived in Oklahoma the first 29 years of my life and during the period when they were recorded.  
> 
> This a massive reach in the first place and even sillier to try and forward it as some sort of legitimate explanation for a highly dubious conclusion (that most people in Southern Cal think more often and highly of Tulsa than OKC) based one person's 2-week experience versus people that have lived here for decades.


I don't think it's that massive of a reach. It was more of a point(s) that Tulsa seems to have more pop culture reference than OKC. Especially back in the day when it was known as the Oil Capital and was capitalized off of as such. 

It seems some posts center on trying to find a reason as to why Tulsa SHOULDN'T be mentioned.

As I had said to adaniel as a possible explanation to Plu Plan's experiences, they're just that, his experiences. We can't confirm or deny, we can't validate what he's heard or who he's spoken to. But, he did come on here and post something discussion worthy and asked for input. Again, obviously we can all agree/disagree with each other, but we need to be careful as these discussions seem to always veer into a versus mode by the end.

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## BDP

I lived in California for about 8 years, including San Francisco and LA, and my experiences were pretty much the same as Pete's. And this was when people in OK thought the NHL was a pipe dream, let alone the NBA. I used to (jokingly) accuse my CA friends of being "stateist" because their awareness of the US was limited to about 5 states and the rest were beneath them. I don't think I ever once even had a conversation about Tulsa. That doesn't mean anything except that it just never came up.

I honestly have no idea how Tulsa is perceived by Californians or others outside of OK. All I know is that my personal conversations with strangers about OKC while traveling over my lifetime have gone from general indifference / condescension to consoling / sympathetic (bombing) to genuine curiosity / positive perception. I remember the first time someone told me they went to OKC as tourists. It was a cab driver from Vegas. I kept asking him why he was in OKC again, and he kept telling me "on vacation". That was weird. Then a couple of years ago when an African cab driver (I'm kind of feeling like a schlep right now for not remembering his specific nationality) in Chicago told me he had been wanting to check out Oklahoma City, I just kept thinking "something strange is happening".

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## Decious

I lived in LA for years and never heard much of anything said about Oklahoma at all. Almost nothing. I've lived in OKC for a while now and I like it. Detest the politics but love the organic and upwardly mobile way of thinking that I've found. 

I know people who hate LA. Love LA. Hate OKC. Love OKC. I know far more who are indifferent towards both. 

IMO we need to remember that everything is seasonal. OKCTalk is not invulnerable to decay. This website and sounding board is becoming ever more popular... but some of the sideshows??? VERY off putting. EVERYONE knows OKC's weak points. We've been talking about them on this site for a decade. Nevertheless... those weaknesses are constantly offered up again and again by certain people as if they are imparting wisdom. We KNOWWWWWWW! OKC is sprawled the hell out. We know. Portland and Austin are more popular. We know. Tulsa has more trees. Long established. There is no ikea. Right. 

This forum is great! A daily read for me. Great info source! But lately.... it's more comic sitcom than history channel or wsj. On this very same internet that okctalk rests upon... you'll find city-data. Go to the Oklahoma sub forum. There you'll find all of the juvenile yapping and flapping pouncing on every long obvious weakness that you can stomach. It's a cesspool of bias and misinformation. I applaud the open nature and hesitant moderation of this forum... but let's not allow it to become toxic. The personality of one or two people should not be able to dominate an outlet like this. 

LA is cool. OKC is cool. Tulsa is cool. NYC is my favorite city. I don't live there. Why? My own subjective reasons. Opinions are cool. Nobody minds that. Just stop presenting them as fact. I believe Plu Plan but... doesn't matter. I wish you the best in LA bro. Great city! Be happy!!!!

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## Plutonic Panda

I appreciate it man.

BTW, I wasn't trying to present my opinions as fact. I had though I stressed it several times that it was just my experience and I'm still learning on it.

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## gopokes88

I kid you not I have Tulsa friends who think cities rank something like this.

New York
London
Chicago
Tulsa

But I get it. They grew up there, and all of their friends and family live there. So in their mind it makes Tulsa a GREAT city. They aren't wrong either, have deep enough roots and personal connections somewhere and you'll grow to love it. The reason people love OKC has a lot to do with the ease of planting roots here. It's very easy to build a great network of friends and if you're lucky family as well. Two factors have contributed to this 1. Oklahoman's general kind and friendly attitude. 2. Districts like Deep Deuce that make it easy to meet people. 

From places I've traveled around a few things stand out that people recognize okc for. 
1. KD and the thunder. Perception is the games are an absolute blast to go to, and Bricktown is a very fun bar district. Perception is that it's like Power and light or uptown in Dallas. (It's not but whatever, 10th street in 10 years though? yep)
2. I'm going to die in a tornado at some point. If you tell someone na I was fine in the Moore tornado it was like 10 miles away. They look terrified. People have no grasp on how rare it is for a tornado to actually hit your house and destroy it. They also seem to think when a tornado forms it's like a top spinning, it can go wherever it wants.
3. The economy. If they have a half way decent grasp of what's going on in the world, they'll say a version of this, "the American dream is still achievable in OKC, I've heard great things about it."
4. The bombing. Although it's starting to be forgotten a little from national memory. 
5. Something random, like they know that it's Olivia Munn's home town, or they know about the building the flaming lips own. These always impress me.

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## Bellaboo

Another thing about OKC TV exposure is Russell and KD have both had multiple commercials that have featured OKC scenes as local backdrops. Russell's True Religion signature brand being his latest. Jordan brand before that. KD has had several with Nike.

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## Mike_M

Since you're in LA, and part of the acting community, could it be that people recognize Tulsa because it provided a major storyline shift in the most successful sitcom of all time (Friends)?

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## David

I'm just wondering if I'm the only person reading along who has never heard of that Tulsa Time song before.

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## BDP

> I kid you not I have Tulsa friends who think cities rank something like this.
> 
> New York
> London
> Chicago
> Tulsa


Haha. I don't know if it's that bad, but I have heard some head scratching analogies.

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## ljbab728

> I'm just wondering if I'm the only person reading along who has never heard of that Tulsa Time song before.


Yes, I believe you are.   :Smile:

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## josh

So platonic, you're in LA now? How was your drive through SA?

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## dankrutka

As a proud native Tulsan who loves OKC, I find these conversations comical. I'm not at all interested in which city is better. It's a false choice that really doesn't serve a purpose. I'm far more interested in understanding, what are Tulsa and OKC's strengths? How can those be built upon? What are Tulsa and OKC's weaknesses? How can those be shored up?

Being so close to what's happening in Tulsa and OKC, particularly the problems, can really skew people's perspectives. I generally try not to insult any cities or places, but the more I travel and learn about other places, the more you realize most places have major problems and shortcomings. I drove through downtown Phoenix last week. It's the fifth largest city in the United States and I would take OKC, Tulsa, and Wichita's downtowns over it. It was unbelievable how poorly it is put together. There are no pedestrians to be found. There are what look like four lane (one way) race tracks that go right through downtown. When I asked people what to do they all told me to go to the suburbs. My point isn't to bash Phoenix, but to provide some perspective. Similarly, I was out in LA last weekend and the urbanism was as bad as anything anywhere in OKC. We had to walk with a baby stroller on a tiny sidewalk 10 inches from cars moving 40 MPH on a 6 lane road that only needed to be 2 lanes. Incredibly dangerous. Anyway, it's easy to focus on everything that's wrong with Tulsa and OKC and compare them, but it usually doesn't serve much of a purpose.

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## bchris02

Every city has its strengths and weaknesses.  Downtown is not one of Phoenix's strengths but the Valley is a very vibrant place and has almost anything anybody could want.  You just have to know where to find it.  One also needs to keep in mind that Phoenix is kind of a unique city in and of itself.  It's the only Tier I city in the southwestern United States and has unique attributes that no other major cities do.  Also, the way the city is laid out, including its downtown, is actually among the most similar to OKC in the entire country.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree completely with you that LA's urbanism is as bad as anywhere in OKC.  The two cities couldn't be any more different.  Maybe you didn't go to the right place in Los Angeles because it is a VERY urban city.  It's a shining example of how to make a car-centric city urban.  OKC-style strip malls with seas of surface parking and huge setbacks are rare in L.A. proper.

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## dankrutka

I was not really speaking for all of LA - just the area I was in. But it's a very wealthy area near the beach and still set up poorly. Again, I repeat: I'm not arguing LA is bad at urbanism. Just pointing out that all areas have their problems. 

I also am not judging Phoenix as a whole. Just providing my perspective from what I saw, which was the least impressive downtown of any major city I've visited. that doesn't make it a bad city. Again, just pointing out that lots of cities have lots of problems.

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## mmonroe

Not so much an OKC v Tulsa by West Coasters...
Love or Hate Oklahoma City - What Are the Things You Love or Hate Most About Living in Oklahoma City?

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## traxx

Phoenix is tier 1?

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## Swake

> Phoenix is tier 1?



Just in golf courses and suburban shopping centers.

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## BDP

> I am going to have to respectfully disagree completely with you that LA's urbanism is as bad as anywhere in OKC.  The two cities couldn't be any more different.  Maybe you didn't go to the right place in Los Angeles because it is a VERY urban city.  It's a shining example of how to make a car-centric city urban.


It does have good examples of new urbanism throughout the basin. At the same time, it's probably one of the most sprawled communities in the country. Basically, in parts of LA, you can now live without a car, but you still wouldn't want to.

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## ljbab728

> It does have good examples of new urbanism throughout the basin. At the same time, it's probably one of the most sprawled communities in the country. Basically, in parts of LA, you can now live without a car, but you still wouldn't want to.


My brother has lived in LA without a car for many years.

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## Zorba

> Neither of Oklahoma's cities are large enough or important enough to be on the radar for a lot of people outside this region.  When most people think of Oklahoma, they don't think of cities.  They think of the Thunder, oil, tornadoes, the bombing, and the religious right.  They don't know a lot about it outside of that.   OKC is a pass-through city for a lot of people taking cross-country trips.  With that said, TU'cane makes some excellent points above about why Tulsa might be more well-known amongst some people.   When was the last time OKC was mentioned in a song or a movie?


John Anderson on Sportscenter mentions the Drillers and/or Tulsa in probably at least 50% of his broadcasts too, mostly in passing or a reference 99% of people won't get.  And has been doing so for more than a decade. Not that this really influences many people, but I've always enjoyed it. 

When I lived in Cincinnati most people had completely forgotten about the bombing. Even a lot of the people I work with that moved from out of state don't know anything about it after living here for a while.

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## bchris02

> When I lived in Cincinnati most people had completely forgotten about the bombing. Even a lot of the people I work with that moved from out of state don't know anything about it after living here for a while.


I am surprised to hear people have forgotten the bombing.  That was the worst act of terrorism in history until 9/11.

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## Zorba

> I am surprised to hear people have forgotten the bombing.  That was the worst act of terrorism in history until 9/11.


Yeah, really shocked me too. But this country is horrible with both history and geography. To be fair, many of the people that were straight clueless were around my age, which made them pre-teens when the bombing occurred. I haven't done this, but might be an interesting test, ask some of your friends what year Katrina happened and where it hit, I bet a few would have no idea.

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## Snowman

> I am surprised to hear people have forgotten the bombing.  That was the worst act of terrorism in history until 9/11.


For many it will not be as much forgot but never heard much about it, anyone around ten or under at the time probably would have had their parents avoid showing them it on the news (so low thirties and under today) , under five at the time is getting too young to remember any live details and at best it might get a brief mention in a history class but kind of falls outside of most of the times they focus on.

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## Teo9969

The distance between Oklahoma City and Cincinnati is the same as Paris to Poland…Paris to Moscow isn't that much longer than Oklahoma City to Boston.

It's not at all surprising people don't remember, especially because of 9/11.

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## BDP

> My brother has lived in LA without a car for many years.


If they ever get the subway to the west side, I might could swing it. Maybe with uber it's totally doable now, but when I was there getting a cab always seemed like more of a chore than it should be, not to mention all the dazed and confused looks we would get when we told people we'd taken a taxi. : )

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## traxx

Tulsa has Spatula City, though.

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## ljbab728

> If they ever get the subway to the west side, I might could swing it. Maybe with uber it's totally doable now, but when I was there getting a cab always seemed like more of a chore than it should be, not to mention all the dazed and confused looks we would get when we told people we'd taken a taxi. : )


Actually, my brother walks most of the places he goes.  Other than that, he uses the bus system.  When I go to LA to visit, I rent a car.   :Smile:

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## dankrutka

> The distance between Oklahoma City and Cincinnati is the same as Paris to Poland…Paris to Moscow isn't that much longer than Oklahoma City to Boston.
> 
> It's not at all surprising people don't remember, especially because of 9/11.


Apples and oranges. Cincy is in the U.S. where this was one of the biggest stories of the year. I certainly know about pretty much any semi-major news in the U.S. and little of what happens in France.

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