# Civic Matters > Ask Anything About OKC >  Gratuity

## Garin

Ate today at Irma's in midtown 2 adults 3 kids and gratuity was added into the bill when I asked about it I was it was part of their new billing system. Anybody else have a problem with that?

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## catch22

Being a former server.. No I do not have a problem with it. Too many people as of late think it is acceptable to not tip. Back when I served, at least one table a night would not tip... And you could tell the moment they ordered that they wouldn't. This is a case of the crappy behaviour of a few ruining it for the rest.

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## Easy180

No problem at all since an adequate tip should always be factored into the decision to head to a restaurant anyway...I have encountered so many cheapskates that are just looking for an excuse to leave a crappy tip

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## rezman

I wouldn't like that. .. How much did they add?

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## Bill Robertson

I would have no problem with 15% being added automatically and having to talk to a manager to have it reduced/removed if the service was bad enough to do so. If the service is that bad management needs to know.

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## Garin

We'll I like to be the one to decide the tip I'm going to leave. Because bad service does happen this was not one of those cases however if it were you now have to make a scene to have the tip removed instead of just tipping accordingly to the bad service you might have received. We eat at Irma's quit often but sadly today was the last time.

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## Garin

Sid you make some good points, I have a real problem with the restaurant not having to pay their employee and now are forcing the patron do it. Is there a law that restricts restaurants from just paying the wait staff a fair wage? If not then Why don't they step up and do it.

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## Jeepnokc

Although I haven't waited tables since the mid nineties, I don't remember being stiffed that often.  Usually was more of a factor of people only tipping 10%.  I do not ever remember making less than non wait staff minimum wage.  The wait staff has to report their tipped earnings each shift because the employer has to make up the difference if the server isn't making the regular minimum wage.  Every server I knew reported nothing more or very little more than the credit card tips as they wanted their cash tips to be unreported. 

 It irritates me when restaurants automatically add it and generally it costs the waiter because if they are going to preset the amount, then that is what I am going to pay.  As a general rule, I always tip at least 20% and 25% if really good service so if they want to add 15%, then that is what they are stuck with.  You take the good with the bad.  However, I generally will not visit restaurants that do that as there is no incentive for the staff to provide attentive service.  I will not be visiting Irma's again either.

A gratuity is not an entitlement.  If you are working somewhere where people don't tip, change restaurants.  If restaurants can't find qualified wait staff, then they will pay a higher wage.

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## Jeepnokc

From Nolo.com.  It had the best explanation of Oklahoma and federal law.

What is the minimum wage in Oklahoma?

The minimum wage in Oklahoma is $7.25 per hour.

Is the minimum wage different in Oklahoma for tipped employees?

The FLSA allows employers to pay a lower hourly minimum wage, *as long as that wage plus the tips the employee earns adds up to at least the full minimum wage for each hour worked. If not, the employer has to make up the difference*. In Oklahoma, employers can pay tipped employees an hourly wage of 50% of the minimum wage, as long as the employees tips bring the total hourly wage up to the state minimum wage.

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## Mel

I do not eat out that often but I have 99.8% of the time tipped. I even tip at Sonic. Servers will know ahead of time that I'm not tipping if I have to get up and make a bit of a scene to get refills or whatever. I have walked into the kitchen at times if I can't get anybody's attention. I do not suffer in silence.

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## Teo9969

This is a very interesting issue in the American restaurant industry and potentially the most important one with regards to how the industry will look over the next 25 years if things change.

As a server, I would not be a fan of the service charge on every table for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that a server has no legal right to the money received on a service charge. The restaurant actually has to calculate the service charge as income. But if there is no service-charge/gratuity on the check, and a patrol leaves the server $100 on a $50 tab, the restaurant has no right to any of that $100.

Furthermore, while I would be for a slight rise in the server-minimum wage from say $2.13/hour to something like $5.50/hour, the server is offered protections/advantages by the $2.13/hour that s/he would otherwise not have in a non-tipped system.

1. Great nights are all yours. If you sell $1,000 of product and average 30% on your tips (probably because one very generous individual), then you can walk out with $300 (less a likely tip-out to other employees like hosts/busboys/bartenders/sommeliers). However, if you're paid the federal minimum wage, you can be required to pay into a tip-pool that could severely lessen how lucrative your job may be.

2. If you receive $2.13/hour, you cannot be docked pay for walk-outs, breakages, or cash-register shortages. So if a table walks out on a $200 tab, and a server being paid $2.13/hour, the restaurant cannot recoup any of that cost from the server. If they pay the server the full minimum wage, they can recoup all of the cost so long as the employee still makes $7.25/hour.

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## Teo9969

Know that if tipping goes away as a whole in favor of set hourly rates, that we should expect as a society to have a vastly different experience when dining.

Fewer servers would be employed on a nightly basis, and they would be required to cover a lot larger territory in the restaurant (resulting in a lower quality of service), and because they are not tipped, many servers would not have any sort of incentive to go above and beyond taking an order and delivering food. Menu prices would also increase due to higher labor costs.

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## Pete

The whole idea of the patron determining a gratuity is why the U.S. generally has great service and places like the U.K. are horrible.

Tips represent *incentive* which is completely removed when added automatically.


It goes against the cultural norm and therefore such establishments run the risk of losing business because of it.

Personally, I would say something to the manager of the restaurant and probably go there less frequently if the policy didn't change.  I don't want someone else making that decision for me.

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## Mel

^^like^^

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## BBatesokc

Didn't read all the replies, and I'm sure my opinion won't be popular - but - I would not continue to patronize a restaurant that forced me to pay a tip on a party of say 8 or less.

And I say this as someone who worked many, many years as a server and even longer as a bartender.

My reasons;
1.) The service may not have been deserving of a tip. Is the customer now expected to ask for money back if the service was substandard?

2.) If you make the tip decision for me, then I'm not going to give you a penny more - and I often tip more than 15-20% if the service and food are exceptional.

I know what servers make and that's not my concern - that's between the server and their employer. I tip if the service warrants it and that's all I concern myself with.

Some kid in India probably made the shirt I bought at Sam's Club today and only was paid pennies for it - does that mean I should put a $10 bill in an envelope and send it to him? No.

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## Midtowner

My guess was that OP was part of the after-church crowd.  Said crowd is notorious for poor tipping.  I'll bet at almost any other time other than Sunday morning, this wouldn't have happened.

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## Pete

Looking at that bill, they added a 16.6% gratuity.

That's a strange number and frankly, outrageous.

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## Pete

BTW, I'm quite sure they cannot add this without first printing it on their menu or telling you before ordering.

They can't simply wait until after the meal then just add some arbitrary surcharge.

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## Stew

We're there more people in the party than stated on the receipt and separate checks were issued? 

Was the policy fully disclosed on the menu? 

I'm not a fan of automatic gratuities because it's no longer a gratuity. It's a user fee and probably an unpopular one.  Also as Brian stated it may actually reduce the tips the servers earn.

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## Garin

> We're there more people in the party than stated on the receipt and separate checks were issued? 
> 
> Was the policy fully disclosed on the menu? 
> 
> I'm not a fan of automatic gratuities because it's no longer a gratuity. It's a user fee and probably an unpopular one.  Also as Brian stated it may actually reduce the tips the servers earn.



Nope it was just me ,wife and the kids. And no it wasn't anywhere on the menu.

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## rte66man

> Nope it was just me ,wife and the kids. And no it wasn't anywhere on the menu.


It also is not listed on their online menu as of 11/10/13

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## Zuplar

This is unfortunate to hear as I'm a fan of Irma's. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this because if they are adding 16% I will not be going there anymore.  I've never had outstanding service there so I couldn't justify paying that much. It's already a fairly expensive place.

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## Mel

unless I am in a large party I will not eat at any establishment that fines you for eating there. If I get good service I am generous, but if I get dismal service I want the option to leave a penny and a note about future career choices.

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## jerrywall

I've heard of people crossing out the automatic gratuity and writing in the actual amount and signing the slip.  Not sure how well that works.

I'm with those that typically tip well.  I waited tables for almost 10 years.  My bottom end is 20%, and I tip up to 35% for a really good experience.  However, if it's automatic?  They get the 15% that was added.  It costs the waiter money when that happens.

I also don't return to a place that adds gratuity.  If you're that concerned about your waiters, pay them more.  There are places I like to support because they pay their tipped staff a true hourly wage.

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## Teo9969

> Looking at that bill, they added a 16.6% gratuity.
> 
> That's a strange number and frankly, outrageous.


18% on the subtotal

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## BBatesokc

Personally, I think the restaurant thinks its looking out for its employees but this reeks of 'small minded, over management.'

They could raise their prices by say 10% and give that (plus any tips) to the wait staff and most customers wouldn't notice and probably wouldn't feel as offended.

Terrible marketing/customer service move IMO.

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## RadicalModerate

^^^That.  What Brian said.

Frankly, if I noticed a charge like that on the check, I'd refuse to pay it.
If the management tried to hit me with a "defrauding an innkeeper" charge, I'd respond with a "defrauding a diner" charge.
(and this from a 20%--pre sales tax--tipper).

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## Of Sound Mind

Wait staff should earn minimum wage regardless.Automatic gratuities result in two things from me:
I only pay the mandatory gratuity amount and not my normal gratuity, which is 20%-plus for reasonable service and 25%-plus for excellent service, since I once worked in the service industry during my high school and college years.I do not return to that establishment after letting the manager know why.

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## Garin

Any table 5 or more is the policy, I talked to them this morning over the phone and confirmed that the new menus stated the charges now. So Irma's burger shack can kiss my butt goodbye for good.

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## Pete

> Any table 5 or more is the policy, I talked to them this morning over the phone and confirmed that the new menus stated the charges now. So Irma's burger shack can kiss my butt goodbye for good.


Wow, FIVE or more?  I've never heard of such a thing, especially when including kids.

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## Pete

By Patricia Sabatini Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Some diners view automatic gratuities as a convenience. For others, it's like being force fed.

Either way, *the practice of automatically adding tips to bills for big groups -- often tables of six to eight people or more -- could quietly disappear following an IRS ruling that forces restaurants to classify such charges as wages, not tips.*

"Say Goodbye to Automatic Gratuities" is how one law firm put it in an alert to the hospitality industry last year in anticipation of the ruling that's now set to take effect Jan. 1.

*Florida-based Darden Restaurants -- operator of Olive Garden, Red Lobster, LongHorn Steakhouse, The Capital Grille and others -- said it would decide by yearend whether to eliminate automatic 18 percent tips for parties of eight or more at its some 2,100 locations.

The country's biggest casual dining chain already has dropped the practice at 100 of its restaurants in various markets across the nation. Instead, it prints suggested gratuity amounts on diners' receipts -- for 15, 18 and 20 percent of the total bill, excluding tax -- leaving the tip line blank for customers to fill in.*

"We're testing this change in an effort to determine the best way to preserve tips for our employees while following the IRS guidance," spokesman Rich Jeffers said.

So far, diners have said they like seeing suggested tip amounts on their checks, he said.

"The feedback we're hearing from guests is that it is very convenient."

Darden began rethinking its tip policy after the IRS issued updated guidance further clarifying a decades-old rule that treats mandatory gratuities as wages, subject to payroll taxes. The agency planned to start enforcing the regulation in earnest this past January, but delayed the action until Jan. 1, 2014, to give businesses more time to comply.

The action could complicate record keeping and could end up raising payroll taxes for servers and restaurants where automatic tips continue to be imposed.

The ruling would have little or no impact on businesses' payroll taxes if waitstaff correctly reported all tip income to their employers as required by law, the IRS said. Practically speaking, however, taxes could go up if some workers have been underreporting their tips.

"If all tipped employees report 100 percent of their tips, the additional FICA [payroll] tax burden on the employer should be negligible, if any," the Internal Revenue Service said in an online Q&A on the issue.



Read more: IRS ruling may take gratuities off the menu - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

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## onthestrip

> My guess was that OP was part of the after-church crowd.  Said crowd is notorious for poor tipping.  I'll bet at almost any other time other than Sunday morning, this wouldn't have happened.


This was my experience when I was a waiter for a summer. Sunday afternoons were the worst, the most work for little compensation.

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## Easy180

If it costs the same today as it did two weeks ago I don't get what the hullabaloo is all about...If the server's service sucks they get let go

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## Anonymous.

I can't wait for the restaraunt service industry to be overhauled.

Tipping in the US is so backwards that it is flat-out embarrassing. WHY are customers responsible for paying employees? Why not call it 'wage contribution', because it is most definitely not a 'tip' anymore.

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## Pete

By the way, what is up with this constant percentage creep with tipping?

Not that long ago, 10% was the accepted norm and 15% was reserved for exceptional service.  Now it seems 15% is assumed and 20 or 25% is not unusual when service is considered especially good.  

And now "standard" mandatory tips are 18%??


These are percentages so why do they keep going up even when prices are already rising and thus the gross amount of tips is going up at the same rate?

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## BBatesokc

> If it costs the same today as it did two weeks ago I don't get what the hullabaloo is all about...If the server's service sucks they get let go


The entire concept of a tip is moot if its forced upon a customer. While the 'cost' may be the same to many - there is now the additional step for a customer to have to complain to get their 'tip' back if service was sup-par. Additionally, in many cases the end cost will be less because customers will often not tip more if forced to tip at all. Not to mention overall lower sales volume if people stop patronizing a restaurant out of principle. 

There are plenty enough bad servers out there to disprove that "if the server's service sucks they get let go."

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## jdcf

No Irma's for us.

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## Easy180

Sid is right on. People go to Irna's for the food not the service. Might get it if we were talking Red Prime but...

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## Midtowner

^Speaking of the Sunday afternoon crowd...

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## Of Sound Mind

> ^Speaking of the Sunday afternoon crowd...


We get it. You hate Christians. It seems that they are the only hypocritical, self-righteous, inconsiderate people in the world. Get rid of them and all the world's ills will be solved, right?

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## sgt. pepper

The wait severs should most definitely make more than $3 an hour, but I am on the side on no automatic gratuity, I will make that decision based of course on the service. I believe if all restaurants had automatic gratuity.....the service would really, really suck everywhere. I understand on large parties, but not five. I like of sound mind post....I am really tired of waiters picking on the Sunday crowd, like Christians are the worst tippers. That is so ridiculous. I thought the rich were the worst tippers and the poor were the best? or the American Indians are the best....wait......people with curly hair are the worst! People born on Thursdays are the best!!....whatever.

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## Mr. Cotter

The fake tip is tacky, regardless of what the message is. If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to eat at a served table.

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## Teo9969

> I can't wait for the restaraunt service industry to be overhauled.
> 
> Tipping in the US is so backwards that it is flat-out embarrassing. WHY are customers responsible for paying employees? Why not call it 'wage contribution', because it is most definitely not a 'tip' anymore.


Right, but you enjoy significantly lower prices for your food that you would be paying otherwise, and you do get better/quicker service because of this.

If the industry is overhauled and Front of House staff is actually paid a "reasonable" wage (we'll say $10/hour for your average restaurant like Chili's or Red Lobster) prices for food will be raised somewhere in the range of 10% to 30% and there would be less Front of House staff on the floor on any given night which would inevitably lead to "worse"/slower service.

You will also have a lot fewer veteran servers willing to spend time in the industry, unless there is (very unlikely in the US) a major incentive to keep people there. If you can't make $20/hour serving, then it's not somewhere you're going to be willing to stay for a long time…not when you have no shot at benefits and it's difficult to reach 40 hours/week without working 6 days.

I don't know what they pay servers in Europe, but I don't get the sense that it's particularly high unless you're talking about a premiere establishment. I'm almost entirely positive that if you translated that culture to the States, service would fall to ****.

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## Teo9969

> I disagree Pete that service is worse in Europe. I've never sensed that kind of distinction at all in Europe. Even without always able to speak the local language, wait staff was always friendly.


Friendly =/= Good service. I'm going to make an assumption that you were traveling in Europe and so it probably wasn't a big deal to sit at a meal for an hour minimum. I personally enjoy the time to sit and relax, but there's no way that would translate well to the US, especially in a culture that expects everything quickly. The average table of 4 at your average restaurant wants in and out in 45 minutes…there's no way that has any prayer of happening in Europe if it's remotely busy. That would aggravate a lot of people.

Far more so than food timing though, general drink levels and pace of getting beverages is far slower in Europe and would probably be the first area Americans realized a difference in a tip-based system and a wage-based system, and I'm pretty sure most, with their penchant for gulping down tea and soda, would find that to be particularly annoying.

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## mkjeeves

One thing I have noticed and wondered about in Europe...the waitstaff seems to have an average age of much older than in the US, and especially older male. Could that mean they are career jobs as opposed to in the US where it tends to be young transitional? (Low paying, no benefits and no future on average here. Yep, with single payer healthcare over there if nothing else.)

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## Midtowner

> We get it. You hate Christians. It seems that they are the only hypocritical, self-righteous, inconsiderate people in the world. Get rid of them and all the world's ills will be solved, right?


Nope, it's just that if you ask any waiter, Sunday mornings are the worst.  

--but if you wanted to eliminate terrorism, the oppression of minorities and most causes for war, getting rid of religion might be a good start.

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## Teo9969

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a chunk of the waiters in Europe are family members of the restaurant owners just doing what they can to help the business out.

I don't think that's necessarily the exact answer, but a possibility. There were a decent amount of younger (20 to 35) servers/bartenders in Europe when I was there from July to mid-September

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## Jeepnokc

> The wait severs should most definitely make more than $3 an hour, .


I posted this previously but seems to be missed.  Waiters make more than 2.13 per hour.  They have to report their tips at the end of each shift for tax purposes.  If the $2.13 per hour plus their tips do not equal $7.25 per hour....the employer has to pay them more so they are making at least $7.25 per hour.  This is federal law.  Really not that hard though to get to $7.25 from $2.13.  That is 5.12 per hour in tips.  Most waiters have 4-5 tables in their section and turn tables every 45-60 minutes.  

I not saying that waiters deserve only 7.25 per hour  but when I waited tables at Chilis on Meridian and Pepperoni Grill, I always averaged $13-18 per hour including the time for closing duties.  (even on Sundays but it is true at least in my experience that the Sunday crowds do not tip as well but neither did the stock show people either) The $2.13 per hour basically covered my taxes on the total wage.

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## BBatesokc

> ou aren't there to purchase wait service. You are there to purchase food.


Which is exactly why forcing customers to tip and how much to tip is ludicrous. 




> But you're not there to for the wait service, you are there for the food.


Not true - at least from my perspective. I go out to eat for the entire experience. Bad service can ruin that experience regardless of how good the food is and really great service can makeup for food that is otherwise nothing exceptional.

I do agree that for many restaurants the idea of paying next to nothing and relying on tips to cover your wait staff is crazy.

To me Irma's is a good example. IMO - restaurants such as Irma's should pay their staff a decent wage that is elevated by tips. Naturally the prices would have to reflect this. This might be a turnoff to some customers, but to me its the fairest route.




> If I got out to eat more often, I'd be sure to eat at Irma's. I appreciate companies that are willing to get rid of the meaningless steps.


What are you talking about? They didn't get rid of anything other than my right to chose to tip or not and how much.

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## Garin

Lady named Linda from Irma's called me this afternoon asking if i wanted a refund and I declined the offer she asked if i would remove the negative posts I left on urban spoon about the incident, I told her that i think the policies are not suitable  for this type of restaurant.


_(Sorry Garin -- I accidentally removed part of your post while attempting to respond.  ~  Pete)_

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## BBatesokc

> Sid is right on. People go to Irna's for the food not the service. Might get it if we were talking Red Prime but...


Which is probably exactly why they instituted the forced tip policy. Obviously patrons didn't feel the need to tip enough to keep the wait staff happy. So, in a totally illogical reaction, the management decided to force the tip.

Red Prime is a good example of where I go for the whole experience of great atmosphere, great service and great food. In return I tip accordingly. I personally don't feel much of a need to tip at a burger joint unless the service is exception - which does happen.

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## BBatesokc

> Its no just for Sunday its everyday of the week lunch and dinner.Lady named Linda from Irma's called me this afternoon asking if i wanted a refund and I declined the offer she asked if i would remove the negative posts I left on urban spoon about the incident, I told her that i think the policies are not suitable  for this type of restaurant.


Awesome. Glad you didn't cave in. Social media is an excellent motivator and change agent.

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## Pete

Garin, how did they get your contact information?


I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.

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## Jeepnokc

> Garin, how did they get your contact information?
> 
> 
> I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.


I have run into it a few times.  The one who must be obeyed and I have three kids so we note it when we see it.  Usually the number is 6 or 8.

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## mkjeeves

> Personally, I think the restaurant thinks its looking out for its employees but this reeks of 'small minded, over management.'
> 
> They could raise their prices by say 10% and give that (plus any tips) to the wait staff and most customers wouldn't notice and probably wouldn't feel as offended.
> 
> Terrible marketing/customer service move IMO.


Whoever posted on urban spoon recently about this issue (Garin?) already thinks Irma's burgers are "overpriced".

Even though the standard is to base the tip on a percent of the check tempered by the service rendered, I wonder how many people cut the tip when they perceive the food is overpriced?

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## Plutonic Panda

Tips should not be forced on people, isn't that why it is called a tip? You tip some, upon your own will and experience you had with them.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Exactly. Which is why it should be called a wage. You should always pay someone wages owed, then if you want to give them a gift as a way of saying thank you, that option is always available.


I would still tip even if they increased their wages. I don't have much understanding about this issue and maybe I will as I consider a new job where I would serve tables, but forcing a tip on people just seems messed up. Anyways, I will soon find out I suppose.

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## Garin

> Garin, how did they get your contact information?
> 
> 
> I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.


I sent them an email Sunday about my displeasure and she responded to it this morning and asked if she could call me so I gave her the number and she called.

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## Anonymous.

I have noticed that places are really taking notice to social media/review sites.

I somewhat recently left a comment on a business's google page and had no identifying information other than my story. The owner called me the following morning asking if I was the one who wrote the review.


It was bizarre.

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## boscorama

I had lunch at Irma's recently. Good burger and rings. Iced tea. Perfectly reasonable service. Price was comparable with Teds for lunch. The server received from us the same tip amount as the crew at Teds. I would be happy with just water but usually order tea to spare any anxiety about the amount any drink adds to the bill and, hence, the tip. My servers would never lose tip money over the absence a $2-3 drink. Now, if I'd had just water at Irma's, my tip would have been less. Not so with Teds, as their service is, well, you know .. Teds. Maybe we should tip 30 percent at Teds?

But I don't go for this automatic gratuity carp.

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## RadicalModerate

The "Automatic Gratuity" removes that pleasurable part of the dining experience that allows the diner to say Thank You, personally, to the people who brought the food to your table and made the entire visit more pleasurable.

(this is why I sometimes wonder about the habit/personal practice of just adding the tip to the CC receipt , , , and the related question regarding whether is it a gaffe or a faux pas to slip the waiter or waitress a five after adding the tip to the slip of paper and saying, "this is for you"?  probably it's both of them.  As if I care about propriety . . . geez.)

btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning.  Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp.  I prefer Orange Roughy.

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## bradh

> I sent them an email Sunday about my displeasure and she responded to it this morning and asked if she could call me so I gave her the number and she called.


She also responded to me via Twitter when I posted a pic of a very undercooked burger that I picked up on a to go order a month or so ago.  I will give them props for that.

I usually overtip, so if I go somewhere and they automatically just add 16%, it's probably saving me money.

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## boscorama

Agree about "server" but your alternative doesn't make it, either.

QUOTE=RadicalModerate;705800]The "Automatic Gratuity" removes that pleasurable part of the dining experience that allows the diner to say Thank You, personally, to the people who brought the food to your table and made the entire visit more pleasurable.

(this is why I sometimes wonder about the habit/personal practice of just adding the tip to the CC receipt , , , and the related question regarding whether is it a gaffe or a faux pas to slip the waiter or waitress a five after adding the tip to the slip of paper and saying, "this is for you"?  probably it's both of them.  As if I care about propriety . . . geez.)

btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning.  Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp.  I prefer Orange Roughy.[/QUOTE]

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## blangtang

> Lady named Linda from Irma's called me this afternoon asking if i wanted a refund and I declined the offer she asked if i would remove the negative posts I left on urban spoon about the incident, I told her that i think the policies are not suitable  for this type of restaurant.
> 
> 
> _(Sorry Garin -- I accidentally removed part of your post while attempting to respond.  ~  Pete)_


I find it interesting that removing a negative post on urbanspoon is worth about $60.

oh and why don't people use yelp in OKC ? 

 urbanspoon seems to have caught on in the food cirlces here...

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## Teo9969

> You've got a lot of proving to do.


As do you, if you plan on trying to hold me to more than anecdotal evidence.




> As I mentioned already, low wages for wait staff isn't everywhere in the US.


I'm well aware. There are 7 or 9 states that do not allow restaurants to take the tip-credit.





> In fact, many states require employers to pay at least minimum wages if they didn't receive enough in tips.


All States.




> Please, stop stating that if servers were paid normal wages that somehow the world would end.


I didn't even come close to saying the world would end. I said things would change. The business model is incredibly different in the two systems.




> Washington figured out it works better for everyone and I'm glad they did. I don't feel like I have to tip in order for my server to be able to afford a meal but I can leave a tip as a way of saying thank you. 
> 
> I have a dream that in the future my CC company allows me to set an automatic gratuity for any purchase done at a restaurant and that POSs can automatically take care of that. 
> 
> Irma's, I'm a fan. Now if we can just get Oklahoma to see the silliness of $2.15/hr wages.


I'm going to say this again, because I think it's the most important aspect of this argument that nobody is acknowledging:

If a restaurant includes a service charge with the ticket, then the server has no legal right to that money. None whatsoever. Irma's can legally keep every dime that is made off of the service charge, as long as the server's average wage over a pay period is at least $7.25/hour.

------

As for the postulation, I'm just telling you, if you remove the tip system, the odds that serving remains a lucrative option decrease dramatically…and if it's not a lucrative option, you decrease the pool of people willing to stay in the industry. There are servers in this city who make $70k/year…and they do it working about 36 hours/week. Do you really think restaurants are going to be willing pay servers $15 to $25/hour let alone the near $40/hour these top of the line people are making?

And what is the average US consumer going to do when prices raise a substantial amount? Right now, you can run a 20 person FOH staff @ an average of 8 hours per person for $341. When that number climbs to $1600, how much do you have to raise your prices? At least a 300% (closer to 400%) increase in FOH labor costs…if the restaurant averages $12k a night in sales, they've taken a 10.5% hit to their operating margin. So they have to raise their prices at least 10% and that's without a service charge factored in.

I'm also skeptical of any examples of how wage-based restaurants are working in the US, because people, I would be willing to bet, are still by and large leaving 20% tips even on top of higher wages (and prices).

You know what the average tip in Europe is? Round-it up...

----------


## Teo9969

> I find it interesting that removing a negative post on urbanspoon is worth about $60.
> 
> oh and why don't people use yelp in OKC ? 
> 
>  urbanspoon seems to have caught on in the food cirlces here...


It's not just $60…it was the assumption that the gesture would make Garin feel valued and bring him back in (ostensibly to spend another $60)…it's an assumption that works more often than you would think. And yeah…how many people does it take reading that negative comment to translate into $60 of lost revenue from people who would have otherwise come in?

----------


## BBatesokc

> It's not just $60…it was the assumption that the gesture would make Garin feel valued and bring him back in (ostensibly to spend another $60)…it's an assumption that works more often than you would think. And yeah…how many people does it take reading that negative comment to translate into $60 of lost revenue from people who would have otherwise come in?


Agreed. And to many, social media greatly influences how they spend their money and their time.

A few times a week a group of 4-8 of us patronize different lunch spots around downtown OKC. We've eaten at Irma's numerous times. If this policy stays in effect, we won't dine there as a group again.

----------


## RadicalModerate

> Agree about "server" but your alternative doesn't make it, either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				=RadicalModerate;705800]btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning.  Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
> as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp.  I prefer Orange Roughy.


I was kidding. About the alternative label.  (It should have read Hospitality Coordination Specialist.) j/k

----------


## BDK

You guys are going to let this go three pages without posting _this_?




(NSFW, obviously)

----------


## Martin

Jay Porter | Observations From A Tipless Restaurant, Part 1: Overview

-M

----------


## traxx

1. I hate when waiters or former watiers get mad at people for not tipping enough. How much you're paid is between you and your employer. Gratuity is just that; gratuitous. It's something extra and it's not a right.

2. If your wait staff is being chronically stiffed on tips to the point that you have to add gratuity to the check automatically, then perhaps the problem is that your wait staff sucks and that's why they're not getting tips.

3. I'm with Pete on tip creep. A percentage tip takes care of inflation. If a burger cost more today than it did in 2000, then 15% of a more costly burger is going to be more. 

4. Also, I'm tired of EVERYONE wanting a tip. You see tip jars on counters in so many establishments these days. At the cleaners, coffee place, sandwich place etc. These places get paid a wage. That's your job. Don't expect a tip for doing what you were hired to do.

5. I've read a few articles about restaurants that have decided to pay their wait staff a normal wage and do away with tips. It's not a gratuity added on or a percentage added to the ticket; it's a wage. And the result has been better service because the wait staff isn't worried about getting paid or getting stiffed and it takes the odd and sometimes uncomfortable dynamic out of the customer/waiter relationship. That puts the onus on the employer. Hence if a waiter sucks, they get fired, not a 3 cent tip. If you're afraid that it will raise the cost of the food too much, then there's still Taco Bell et. al. That sounds like the way to go to me.

----------


## Teo9969

> Jay Porter | Observations From A Tipless Restaurant, Part 1: Overview
> 
> -M


I read through all 6 part of this.

Let me preface this by saying that I think there is so much good information in this series and a lot of great insight into the restaurant industry for people who have never been in it. I am in agreement with almost all of his individual claims.

Where I differ from Mr. Porter is the overall picture of how things will change in the industry going forward. Dining will be more expensive and will take longer. Lucrative waiting positions will grow sparse to non-existent and so the industry will lose veteran servers, and will fail to have the room for growth for less-experienced servers to see it as a worthwhile use of their time. Individual restaurants, especially on the more casual end, will actually probably stabilize some, but the industry as a whole will be met with less longevity. 

It will also be more difficult to start a restaurant. Margins will be even tighter, prices will be higher and patrons will be forced to either expand their restaurant budget or find other dining options. More places like Chipotle and Smashburger will increase in the market, eliminating full-service in favor of some aspect of self-service. And considering the average employee that you have at a restaurant, abuse of the system will grow. That may be easy to weed out if you're one of a handful of restaurants in town working this system. But when you have the entire industry adopt this system, all of the sudden your pool of candidates becomes a lot more taxing to wade through, and your competition to land them is a lot higher. Abuse of the system looks like servers who pass on going the extra step in hospitality because it brings with it no reward, servers who milk the clock because it's now actually lucrative to do so, servers who don't worry about up-selling items because it doesn't impact the pay, servers who let "attention to detail" slide, like filling up water or replacing used silverware, servers passing on dialoguing with guests about the menu opting to instead just be an order-taker.

The abuse of any system is always going to happen. And I'm not going to say that this new system wouldn't work…clearly it would. It's just that wide-spread implementation of this system would establish a different dining experience than Americans are used to. 

Sid called this a success story…well the restaurant is now closed (to be sure, not necessarily due to operating reasons) and was a 3*/5* restaurant on Yelp and a 72% restaurant on Urbanspoon. The comments read like any other restaurant's, so it sounds like The Linkery was not bad, but just average…sounds more like a meh story than a success story.

----------


## Garin

Part of my job description is to wine and dine clients for breakfast, lunch, and sometimes dinner. Mostly breakfast and lunch their can be at any given time 2-4 guests plus myself for each meeting. Irma's has been on this rotation for several years both locations to be exact, I've never been subjected to the automatic gratuity from any restaurant for the last 17 years in business with exception of a few times with a larger group of clients. Regardless if I have fewer than 5 in my party I will never step foot back into Irma's again. Kaiser's is just as close and makes a good shake to boot.

----------


## soonerguru

> Part of my job description is to wine and dine clients for breakfast, lunch, and sometimes dinner. Mostly breakfast and lunch their can be at any given time 2-4 guests plus myself for each meeting. Irma's has been on this rotation for several years both locations to be exact, I've never been subjected to the automatic gratuity from any restaurant for the last 17 years in business with exception of a few times with a larger group of clients. Regardless if I have fewer than 5 in my party I will never step foot back into Irma's again. Kaiser's is just as close and makes a good shake to boot.


I was a waiter. Rule of thumb for us was 6 guests -- and there was a good reason for it. The larger the party, the crappier the tip. It's fairly standard practice. Haven't heard of doing that for five guests, though. Sorry you had a bad experience. Still, somehow I doubt your absence will have much of an impact on Irma's bottom line going forward.

----------


## Pete

A few people on Twitter picked up this thread and tweeted it, so word has definitely started to get around.


And do most "6 or more" automatic gratuity policies include children?

----------


## BBatesokc

> A few people on Twitter picked up this thread and tweeted it, so word has definitely started to get around.
> 
> 
> And do most "6 or more" automatic gratuity policies include children?


I have an issue with the policy in general - but I really have an issue with kids being counted as adults. Sure kids can make a bigger mess, blah, blah, blah.... but its a terrible policy.

----------


## RadicalModerate

So, if you left a tip at a "tipless" restaurant would the owner call the cops or just bar you?
Would the waitperson accepting it get fired?
This redistribution of the wealth is more complicated than it might first appear!
(borrowed from Dennis Moore/Monty Python)

----------


## soonerguru

> Tips should not be forced on people, isn't that why it is called a tip? *You tip some, upon your own will* and experience you had with them.


I think this is precisely the attitude that leads to automatic gratuity being added to the check. The answer is, yes, you are supposed to tip. That's how we do it in America. In Europe, tips are literally reserved for superlative service, and no more than 10% is recommended. But they pay their wait staff a living wage (and most of them get health insurance through their governments). 

It would suck to bust my ass and have someone with your views as a patron trying to decide if I qualify for a tip.

----------


## BBatesokc

> I think this is precisely the attitude that leads to automatic gratuity being added to the check. The answer is, yes, you are supposed to tip. That's how we do it in America. In Europe, tips are literally reserved for superlative service, and no more than 10% is recommended. But they pay their wait staff a living wage (and most of them get health insurance through their governments). 
> 
> It would suck to bust my ass and have someone with your views as a patron trying to decide if I qualify for a tip.


So, are you saying you'd be 'entitled' to a tip because your employer doesn't pay you much?

If you were truly 'busting your ass' then your tips at the end of the day would most likely be just fine.

Exactly what are SoonerGuru's 'views' that are so wrong? He doesn't think he should be FORCED to tip. He didn't say he doesn't tip regardless. He also clarifies that the tip is representational of the individual experience ----- Oh my God that's so unfair!

Like I've said, I worked as a waiter and then changed to bartending - because I found it paid much better. But it all depends on where you work and how you work.

I see zero scenario where it would be right to force a family of 5-6 to have to pay a predetermined tip amount.

----------


## RadicalModerate

Digression Alert: I just remembered that one of the first discussionarguments I got involved with in here was about tipping at Sonic.
Two Bucks minimum.  That shouldn't be a rule.  Simply a choice.

----------


## Garin

> So, are you saying you'd be 'entitled' to a tip because your employer doesn't pay you much?
> 
> If you were truly 'busting your ass' then your tips at the end of the day would most likely be just fine.
> 
> Exactly what are SoonerGuru's 'views' that are so wrong? He doesn't think he should be FORCED to tip. He didn't say he doesn't tip regardless. He also clarifies that the tip is representational of the individual experience ----- Oh my God that's so unfair!
> 
> Like I've said, I worked as a waiter and then changed to bartending - because I found it paid much better. But it all depends on where you work and how you work.
> 
> I see zero scenario where it would be right to force a family of 5-6 to have to pay a predetermined tip amount.


Bates you hit the nail on the head it's all about the entitlement.

----------


## boscorama

Well then, I hope you don't think "carp" was a typo! Just covering my @$$, don't you know. 




> I was kidding. About the alternative label.  (It should have read Hospitality Coordination Specialist.) j/k

----------


## RadicalModerate

> Well then, I hope you don't think "carp" was a typo! Just covering my @$$, don't you know.


I'm fairly sure that it's OK to serve carp at a kosher restaurant, but not to carp about it.
Perhaps a rabbi should be consulted in order to cover one's "s" here?
He (or she) might even throw in a tip about tipping for half price.
Especially if he (or she) is a moel?

----------


## boscorama

Noted.



> I'm fairly sure that it's OK to serve carp at a kosher restaurant, but not to carp about it.
> Perhaps a rabbi should be consulted in order to cover one's "s" here?
> He (or she) might even throw in a tip about tipping for half price.
> Especially if he (or she) is a moel?

----------


## soonerguru

> So, are you saying you'd be 'entitled' to a tip because your employer doesn't pay you much?
> 
> If you were truly 'busting your ass' then your tips at the end of the day would most likely be just fine.
> 
> Exactly what are SoonerGuru's 'views' that are so wrong? He doesn't think he should be FORCED to tip. He didn't say he doesn't tip regardless. He also clarifies that the tip is representational of the individual experience ----- Oh my God that's so unfair!
> 
> Like I've said, I worked as a waiter and then changed to bartending - because I found it paid much better. But it all depends on where you work and how you work.
> 
> *I see zero scenario where it would be right to force a family of 5-6 to have to pay a predetermined tip amount.*


Perhaps you weren't a waiter very long for this very reason. Ever worked Sunday lunch after church gets out?

----------


## RadicalModerate

> Noted.


Amen.

----------


## BBatesokc

> Perhaps you weren't a waiter very long for this very reason. Ever worked Sunday lunch after church gets out?


Boo-Hoo. Then don't work at Luby's! (that's just my sarcasm venting)

I worked at plenty of places as a waiter that had terrible tipping customers........ guess what?  When I realized it wasn't my attitude or skills that were hurting my income - but, in fact, either the restaurant and/or its customers - I got a job doing the same thing for more money somewhere else.

There are plenty of days and shifts as a waiter or bartender that don't pay enough to make it worth the effort - but you either suck it up, because its part of the job, or you move on. You think a Tuesday night bartending at the former 5th Seasons Inn at Broadway Ext and 63rd made me anything? Nope. But the weekend 'free bar' for guests made it so worth putting up with the other crap the rest of the week.

If the only flag you've got to fly is the, "_those damn pesky penny pinching Christians on Sundays from noon to three_" then you don't have my sympathy on this issue. 

How about instead of bitching about the people who actually ensure you have a job (your customers) you re-evaluate if the 'problem' really is a problem and how you and the restaurant can overcome it without annoying, inconveniencing or otherwise causing your customers to become 'former customers.'

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## Midtowner

> If you were truly 'busting your ass' then your tips at the end of the day would most likely be just fine.
> .


Probably not on an early Sunday afternoon.

----------


## Garin

I have an idea how about all restaurants be closed on Sunday, then they won't have to take the chance of the church crowd coming in and not tipping well. This could also promote more family dinners around the kitchen table which we all could you more of and maybe these restaurants might benefit like Chick fila has.

----------


## anthonyokc

I don't chime in often, but here is my two cents. I used to work in the restaurant industry and here are some of my viewpoints.
1. It is back breaking and sometimes overwhelming work during peak busy hours.
2.not many people can do this type of work, this is the ultimate in multitasking.
3.$2.13 an hour is not negotiable for the server paid by the restaurant, and VERY few places pay more than that.
4.if my level of service was underpar and i was seen just standing around, i deserved a bad tip...if I was busy, most people would understand and still leave a decent tip.
5. Some people come in (not all) and treat servers like they are trash, thats not cool.
6. Some people come in and treat servers with ultimate respect, those people are getting the best service. (See where l'm going with that?)
7. In a lot of restaurants, the server is required to give a percentage of their tips to the bartender, busser, and the hostess. That is a requirement. In other restaurants where they do not give this percentage, they have do everything including cleaning up after messy people after they leave.
8. Servers have to deal with multiple tables making multiple requests at the same time and also have to deal with unexpected problems in a timely manner, no exceptions, or their tip suffers...very few people can handle that.
9.although, i can understand viewpoints against the auto-tip practice, I still firmly stand by it, just for the fact, you can walk into a restaurant and not ever have to leave your seat and the person taking care of you has to endure way more than you realize or even see. People that have never worked in a restaurant just do not understand what their particular server truly does for them, such as prepping for the shift, what kind of nut-job may be in there next table, how many tables they have...etc, etc...
9 the list could go on and on. But in reality, if paying 9 dollars to someone who has to clean up after you, put up with 1000's of different neurosis in a months time, and ensures you have good service bothers you...you may want to re-evaluate dining out in a full service restaurant all together. To the rest of the population who gets it, CHEERS!

----------


## anthonyokc

I just now read all of the replies...I have dined at Irma's by Chesapeake quite a few times, and they do have a "house rules" section on the menu that is usually facing up when they seat you, and it does mention items including a gratuity for parties of a certain size. In this case, I am assuminh its "5". But kudos to them for at least trying to make sure you're aware of it.

----------


## LocoAko

> The whole idea of the patron determining a gratuity is why the U.S. generally has great service and places like the U.K. are horrible.
> 
> Tips represent *incentive* which is completely removed when added automatically.
> 
> 
> It goes against the cultural norm and therefore such establishments run the risk of losing business because of it.
> 
> Personally, I would say something to the manager of the restaurant and probably go there less frequently if the policy didn't change.  I don't want someone else making that decision for me.


Anecdotal, but I just got back from Japan where tipping is considered extremely rude (servers earn a living wage directly), and everywhere I went the service was fantastic. There's probably a lot of cultural differences there in terms of ideas of the role of service, but I found it fascinating.

----------


## Jersey Boss

+ 1 Anthony. If servers are expected to fold napkins, bus tables or anything other than serving the food they should be paid minimum wage at a minimum.  If there is a number where an auto tip kicks in,  then yeah your kids count also. They are eating, right?  Only thing I would do different is make sure the server gets the tip, and not the house. Leave a cash tip and delete the charge for tip at the register if paying with plastic.

----------


## anthonyokc

You would think that restaurants would pay a full hourly wage for opening and closing side work, but they do not. Restaurants require their servers to provide excellent service in order to get decent tips and offset the 2.13 an hour. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

----------


## Anonymous.

Why are people stuck on tipping based on percentage of meal cost? 

I order a steak at a nice restaraunt (for example, West) and it costs me $40.
My friend next to me orders a chicken salad and it costs $15.

The server spent the exact same time and energy providing both of us for the night. But the customer who ordered a more expensive item is punished by societal norms? 


I have heard many times servers say something along the lines of "I got stiffed on a $100 tab tonight"... Were they really expecting $20+ because they brought a nice bottle of wine for two people? Then on the other end of this scale, the server could have been running sodas back and forth to a table all night for the same two people who only ordered said soda and an appetizer. Now these soda people have a $20 tab.

Anytime I have brought this up to people (usually friends that are servers and ranting after work or something) they are dumbfounded.

PS for anyone unfamiliar with what "stiffing" is to a server, it most certainly does not mean they got 0.00 on the tip line. It means they did not get the percentage they expected based on total bill.

----------


## MustangGT

Good service gets tipped.  Bad services gets justifiably stiffed.  The attitude that a tip is mandatory just because the service staff took and delivered your order is hogwash.  I worked decades ago in a tip environment and had the same attitude back then.

----------


## Easy180

> Why are people stuck on tipping based on percentage of meal cost? 
> 
> I order a steak at a nice restaraunt (for example, West) and it costs me $40.
> My friend next to me orders a chicken salad and it costs $15.
> 
> The server spent the exact same time and energy providing both of us for the night. But the customer who ordered a more expensive item is punished by societal norms? 
> 
> 
> I have heard many times servers say something along the lines of "I got stiffed on a $100 tab tonight"... Were they really expecting $20+ because they brought a nice bottle of wine for two people? Then on the other end of this scale, the server could have been running sodas back and forth to a table all night for the same two people who only ordered said soda and an appetizer. Now these soda people have a $20 tab.
> ...


Exactly my argument when discussing happy hours with my friends...I tipped a minimum of ten bucks on a $30 tab since our server brought numerous beers throughout the night...They stuck with being cheap and tipped 20%

----------


## Teo9969

> Why are people stuck on tipping based on percentage of meal cost? 
> 
> I order a steak at a nice restaraunt (for example, West) and it costs me $40.
> My friend next to me orders a chicken salad and it costs $15.
> 
> The server spent the exact same time and energy providing both of us for the night. But the customer who ordered a more expensive item is punished by societal norms? 
> 
> 
> I have heard many times servers say something along the lines of "I got stiffed on a $100 tab tonight"... Were they really expecting $20+ because they brought a nice bottle of wine for two people? Then on the other end of this scale, the server could have been running sodas back and forth to a table all night for the same two people who only ordered said soda and an appetizer. Now these soda people have a $20 tab.
> ...


I know nobody who uses the term "stiffed" for anything other than no tip. I assure you, I know more waiters than you do.

I get what you're trying to intimate with your story, but the idea that a $20 tip on $100 inexplicably feels far less bearable than a $125 ticket with no tip is just crazy.

What's funny, is that it's precisely the people who choose to tip poorly (<18%) that will be most surprisingly displeased were the system to ever change. Dinner would at the very least become more expensive (at least 20% more expensive).

----------


## Teo9969

> Good service gets tipped.  Bad services gets justifiably stiffed.  *The attitude that a tip is mandatory just because the service staff took and delivered your order is hogwash.*  I worked decades ago in a tip environment and had the same attitude back then.


Yep…that sure is all they did to make sure you could eat dinner without any work but going to the restaurant and sitting down.

----------


## Richard at Remax

while at my honeymoon in bora bora our hotel restuarants had a built in 12% service charge on everything that had to do with food/drink. Like a lot of oversea countries tipping was a no no. I thought it was awesome and the service was top notch.

----------


## Easy180

> But we were told above that if you have automatic tipping, that means there is no incentive for giving good service. This must be the exception to the rule.


I know of an incentive...Called staying employed

----------


## anthonyokc

If the server gives bad service, then yes, speak to the management and they WILL remove the gratuity. Plain and simple. The main reason for the auto tip is to protect the server from the IRS. Servers are subject (as is the restaurant) to audits from the IRS. Sometimes when there is a larger party, and only one person paying the tab, they sometimes get "stickershock" from not realizing how much it would cost to wine and dine lets, say 15 people. There are many times when that one person got in over his head with such a large tab, that they end up punishing the server with a low tip. The IRS does have the ability to look at the amount of sales for a server anf believe me, they want to see the server claiming x amount of dollars in grats compared to their sales. So one of the main reasons for the auto tip is to protect the server from having to get taxed on nothing. And yes, I already know thats crappy, but thats the way it is. Servers have no way of changing tax laws, they are just required to make the IRS happy in that particular area. This is also out of the restaurants control as well.

----------


## Easy180

> Exactly! Like every single other job in the world. I have to smile and be uber kind to customers every day. Imagine how nice I'd be if I got tipped!


And the fact that most folks take pride in doing their job well...Restaurant business isn't unique

----------


## Anonymous.

> I know nobody who uses the term "stiffed" for anything other than no tip. I assure you, I know more waiters than you do.
> 
> I get what you're trying to intimate with your story, but the idea that a $20 tip on $100 inexplicably feels far less bearable than a $125 ticket with no tip is just crazy.


Perhaps it depends on the establishment or area. I, too, was under the impression that being 'stiffed' meant zero tip. But I was surprised when I found out about several servers claiming they were "stiffed" when they were actually just "shorted" for a better term. I think stiffed should be reserved for zero tippers, I find it hard to understand since it is all subjective at that point.

And yes, I mostly threw that PS line in that post to help clarify for that specific incident.

----------


## Teo9969

So let's quit beating around the bush here. For wage-based system advocates, I'd like to see the following questions answered:

What should a server's wage be? And what, if any, benefits should be included?

What should their job entail?

What should bartender, host, and bus staff be paid, if those positions should even still exist?

What is an acceptable rise in menu prices to implement the new system?

----------


## anthonyokc

Even though I used to be a server back in the day...I do agree with severely reducing a tip for intentionally rude or sub-par service. The issue here is people who walk into a full service restaurant knowing full-well that they are about to be served by someone who works for those gratuities to put food on the table and pay their bills, and then try to find reasons to not pay for the service provided even if the service was good.

----------


## Richard at Remax

Im sure some of you have seen some of the ridiculous receipts out of las vegas that have added gratuity built in like this http://www.buzzfeed.com/percival/190...nightclub-1v0u

granted if you are going to spend that much at a bar money is no issue, but should you have to pay $30,000 tip? seems way overboard and there should be a cap. I want that server job if they get it all. but I would assume something like that amount gets split up. 

I also like how there is a blank line at the bottom just in case you wanted to add more

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> 1. I hate when waiters or former watiers get mad at people for not tipping enough. How much you're paid is between you and your employer. Gratuity is just that; gratuitous. It's something extra and it's not a right.
> 
> 2. If your wait staff is being chronically stiffed on tips to the point that you have to add gratuity to the check automatically, then perhaps the problem is that your wait staff sucks and that's why they're not getting tips.
> 
> 3. I'm with Pete on tip creep. A percentage tip takes care of inflation. If a burger cost more today than it did in 2000, then 15% of a more costly burger is going to be more. 
> 
> 4. Also, I'm tired of EVERYONE wanting a tip. You see tip jars on counters in so many establishments these days. At the cleaners, coffee place, sandwich place etc. These places get paid a wage. That's your job. Don't expect a tip for doing what you were hired to do.
> 
> 5. I've read a few articles about restaurants that have decided to pay their wait staff a normal wage and do away with tips. It's not a gratuity added on or a percentage added to the ticket; it's a wage. And the result has been better service because the wait staff isn't worried about getting paid or getting stiffed and it takes the odd and sometimes uncomfortable dynamic out of the customer/waiter relationship. That puts the onus on the employer. Hence if a waiter sucks, they get fired, not a 3 cent tip. If you're afraid that it will raise the cost of the food too much, then there's still Taco Bell et. al. That sounds like the way to go to me.


+1

----------


## kevinpate

FWIW, I've tipped far more than the order total more than once, and encourage others to consider the same.  

An example would be some inexpensive nacho orders and soda, when we sat and sat and sat and grazed more than once in the process of catching up with old friends.  I knew well we had the table for two, if not three, typical rotations for a table. To tip on the tab alone in my opinion would be to mistreat a server, and I find most to be cordial and fun folk.  Not my style to whiz on a stranger's shoes, and definitely not on the shoes of someone who is likely to carry my food and drink in the future.

----------


## bradh

> FWIW, I've tipped far more than the order total more than once, and encourage others to consider the same.  
> 
> An example would be some inexpensive nacho orders and soda, when we sat and sat and sat and grazed more than once in the process of catching up with old friends.  I knew well we had the table for two, if not three, typical rotations for a table. To tip on the tab alone in my opinion would be to mistreat a server, and I find most to be cordial and fun folk.  Not my style to whiz on a stranger's shoes, and definitely not on the shoes of someone who is likely to carry my food and drink in the future.


That's good bull, and similar to what another poster said about happy hours.  If I go somewhere and take up a table with a buddy and just have some cheap swill for 3 hours to catch a game, I take care of that server appropriately.  There have even been times where I'll try to let the server know our intentions up front, and sometimes they appreciate that, so that they can take care of other tables with food, as long as they kept an eye on our beers.

----------


## soonerguru

> Boo-Hoo. Then don't work at Luby's! (that's just my sarcasm venting)
> 
> I worked at plenty of places as a waiter that had terrible tipping customers........ guess what?  When I realized it wasn't my attitude or skills that were hurting my income - but, in fact, either the restaurant and/or its customers - I got a job doing the same thing for more money somewhere else.
> 
> There are plenty of days and shifts as a waiter or bartender that don't pay enough to make it worth the effort - but you either suck it up, because its part of the job, or you move on. You think a Tuesday night bartending at the former 5th Seasons Inn at Broadway Ext and 63rd made me anything? Nope. But the weekend 'free bar' for guests made it so worth putting up with the other crap the rest of the week.
> 
> If the only flag you've got to fly is the, "_those damn pesky penny pinching Christians on Sundays from noon to three_" then you don't have my sympathy on this issue. 
> 
> How about instead of bitching about the people who actually ensure you have a job (your customers) you re-evaluate if the 'problem' really is a problem and how you and the restaurant can overcome it without annoying, inconveniencing or otherwise causing your customers to become 'former customers.'


WTF are you talking about? I averaged about 21% in tips. i wasn't bitching about tips. I haven't been a waiter in years. I was explaining that the culture we live in dictates that you tip between 15 and 20% for good to excellent service. If the service sucks, don't tip. Are you confusing my posts with someone else?

It is true that the worst tips are on Sunday after church gets out, as anyone who works in the restaurant industry will attest.

----------


## MustangGT

> Yep…that sure is all they did to make sure you could eat dinner without any work but going to the restaurant and sitting down.


Those two events are not even close to being comparable to somebody who knows from which they speak.

----------


## RadicalModerate

> Why are people stuck on tipping based on percentage of meal cost? 
> 
> I order a steak at a nice restaraunt (for example, West) and it costs me $40.
> My friend next to me orders a chicken salad and it costs $15.
> 
> The server spent the exact same time and energy providing both of us for the night. But the customer who ordered a more expensive item is punished by societal norms? 
> 
> I have heard many times servers say something along the lines of "I got stiffed on a $100 tab tonight"... Were they really expecting $20+ because they brought a nice bottle of wine for two people? Then on the other end of this scale, the server could have been running sodas back and forth to a table all night for the same two people who only ordered said soda and an appetizer. Now these soda people have a $20 tab.
> 
> ...


I would say I was dumbfounded, but I've never been a waiter or waitress.
All I can say is: That is the most unexpectedly brilliant way of viewing "the issue" that I've ever read.

----------


## BBatesokc

> WTF are you talking about? I averaged about 21% in tips. i wasn't bitching about tips. I haven't been a waiter in years. I was explaining that the culture we live in dictates that you tip between 15 and 20% for good to excellent service. If the service sucks, don't tip. Are you confusing my posts with someone else?
> 
> It is true that the worst tips are on Sunday after church gets out, as anyone who works in the restaurant industry will attest.


No confusion here.... Actually you were 'bitching about tips' - specifically Sunday Crowd tips and more broadly, "The larger the party, the crappier the tip."




> It is true that the worst tips are on Sunday after church gets out, as anyone who works in the restaurant industry will attest.


Maybe, maybe not - regardless, we're talking about 1-4 hours of an entire work week. You said yourself you averaged 21% in tips.

I don't have a horse in this race other than to banter back and forth on the subject based on my perspective.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> FWIW, I've tipped far more than the order total more than once, and encourage others to consider the same.  
> 
> An example would be some inexpensive nacho orders and soda, when we sat and sat and sat and grazed more than once in the process of catching up with old friends.  I knew well we had the table for two, if not three, typical rotations for a table. To tip on the tab alone in my opinion would be to mistreat a server, and I find most to be cordial and fun folk.  Not my style to whiz on a stranger's shoes, and definitely not on the shoes of someone who is likely to carry my food and drink in the future.


Ditto. I've done the same thing many times for the very same reasons.

----------


## Jeepnokc

We just booked our office Christmas party yesterday and when we were looking at places, all of them had mandatory 20% tip added except one place which was 22% (McNellies) and Dave and Busters which was 18%.   My standard is 20% so I don't mind unless we get one waiter for our party of 25.

----------


## Shake2005

If you would like the kind of service you get when servers aren't tipped and make something like minimum wage you are always welcome to go to McDonalds. 

So many cheap people in the world, seriously, if you can't afford the tip, don't eat at full service restaurants. Personally I prefer the tip system, I was a waiter and bartender years ago in my college years and it was excellent training for the real work world in how to talk to and treat people. 

Also, don't forget that very often the tip you give to the waiter is also partly going to the bartender, the hostess and the bus boy. There are lots of people making sure you are taken care of when you eat out. Don't be a cheap ass, take care of them right back.

----------


## Jersey Boss

Dayna Morales, Waitress And Marine, Denied Tip Because Of Her 'Gay Lifestyle'

And it wasn't even a Sunday. Seems like a good argument on why minimum wage as a "floor" should be standard.

----------


## Dubya61

> Dayna Morales, Waitress And Marine, Denied Tip Because Of Her 'Gay Lifestyle'
> 
> And it wasn't even a Sunday. Seems like a good argument on why minimum wage as a "floor" should be standard.


What?  Because someone misses out on a ~$20 tip, we should reform the minimum wage for servers?
It's entirely possible to make a killing on the right nights waiting tables.  You certainly don't get rich doing it, and sometimes don't even get by, but I don't think it's part of our culture that wait staff is the pinnacle job in anybody's career progression.
You need to come up with a better argument.
BTW, what makes you think it didn't happen on a Sunday?

----------


## Jersey Boss

No, we should reform the minimum wage for servers because it is the right thing to do. While it may not be an occupation that is a pinnacle job, it is one of the most popular of occupations by females w/o a post H.S. education.   A significant number of these women have children, and not only do they not get minimum wage, they rarely get any benefits either.  No sick time, no vacation time, no insurance. Nor does this not take into account the harassment these workers receive from the public (such as exhibited) or sexual harassment of another nature.  While it can be tut tut'd away and be told "go somewhere else" these workers in many cases do not have the luxury of being out of work looking for something else.  I guess they could ask their parents for a loan to start a business, but how viable is that?

I can tell it did not happen on a Sunday by the date on the receipt, but I guess Wed. night is the second most popular time for the cheap crowd to be out.

----------


## Dubya61

> No, we should reform the minimum wage for servers because it is the right thing to do. While it may not be an occupation that is a pinnacle job, it is one of the most popular of occupations by females w/o a post H.S. education.   A significant number of these women have children, and not only do they not get minimum wage, they rarely get any benefits either.  No sick time, no vacation time, no insurance. Nor does this not take into account the harassment these workers receive from the public (such as exhibited) or sexual harassment of another nature.  While it can be tut tut'd away and be told "go somewhere else" these workers in many cases do not have the luxury of being out of work looking for something else.  I guess they could ask their parents for a loan to start a business, but how viable is that?
> 
> I can tell it did not happen on a Sunday by the date on the receipt, but I guess Wed. night is the second most popular time for the cheap crowd to be out.


Well, based on my experiences waiting tables, the tips more than made up for what could have been minimum wage.  Further, I loved the idea that I only had to report a certain percentage of the bill as my wage.  I contend that if you change the minimum wage for servers, you will kill tipping, and the unintended consequence of making employers pay them more will result in less money taken home.  I would never exchange my tip take home for a fully taxed minimum wage.  Does the job suck?  Yeah, at times.  That's why they call it work, eh?

Where did you see the date on the receipt?  Are you assuming it happened yesterday?  11/13?  If so, that made it to the news astonishingly quick.

----------


## Jersey Boss

The date is listed below the "Total" amount line. 11/13 @ 19:19. In your experience as a server,  did you have to share your tips with any other employees such as bartenders or bussers? If so,  do you know whether or not these positions were paid min,. wage or better?

----------


## Shake2005

> In your experience as a server,  did you have to share your tips with any other employees such as bartenders or bussers? If so,  do you know whether or not these positions were paid min,. wage or better?


In my experience yes, both bussers and hostesses both made minimum wage with tips on top of that. My high school aged daughter was a hostess earlier this year at an upscale seafood place and she was paid minimum by the store but made well over minimum wage with tips. 

Bartenders are in another category. They usually make quite a bit more than minimum wage and then also get tip share and their own direct tips. Good bartenders can make a lot of money. But then the skill set to tend bar is well above that of wait staff and good bartenders are where make restaurants overall make their money. When I was bartending at a brewpub 20 years ago I think I was making $9-10 an hour in wages, and I think minimum wage back then was maybe $5 an hour. On top of that I made anywhere from $50-$75 during the week in tips and $100-$200 on weekend nights, sometimes more. I also was a part time manager and made far less when I was working as a manager. I was making around 40k a year working part time 20 years ago. I took a pay cut to take my first corporate job but by then I had a wife and baby on the way and needed the benefits and wanted regular hours. Two years later I was making far more than I was bartending, but it was hard at first.

----------


## Jersey Boss

Thanks Shake. Very informative and illustrates why I feel servers should be getting at least the same minimum wage that others in the food business enjoy. i did not realize that the hostess/host also got a cut of the servers tips. The skill set/ pressure for that can't be as great as that as the servers. I imagine when there are layoffs due to restaurants closing or downturns in the economy, the servers also get significantly less in U/E insurance benefits as those are based on wages.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Dayna Morales, Waitress And Marine, Denied Tip Because Of Her 'Gay Lifestyle'
> 
> And it wasn't even a Sunday. Seems like a good argument on why minimum wage as a "floor" should be standard.


As has been said in this thread servers by law make at the minimum    Min wage      Most male quite a bit more    Non make under

----------


## Shake2005

> As has been said in this thread servers by law make at the minimum    Min wage      Most male quite a bit more    Non make under



No, most wait staff make $2.00 an hour from the restaurant and likely tip out more than that to the hostesses, bussers and bartenders. The net is that waitstaff is about free to the store. With zero benefits. Waiting tables is an exception to the minimum wage law.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> No, most wait staff make $2.00 an hour from the restaurant and likely tip out more than that to the hostesses, bussers and bartenders. The net is that waitstaff is about free to the store. With zero benefits. Waiting tables is an exception to the minimum wage law.


If they don't make enough in tips to get to at least min wage.   The restaurant has to may them the difference

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## kevinpate

Unless someone is just being an idiot, no one in the hospitality industry is paying lower than minimum wage. The pay may come from more than one source, i.e. part from the establishment and part from the customers, but if someone just totally sucks as a server, they will still make at least minimum wage .. at least until they are let go for not being good at the job.

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## RadicalModerate

So . . . Would the simple answer to The Gratuity Issue, vis--vis "Irma's Burger Shack" (ref. OP), be to change the name to "Irma's Shanty Irish Burger Mansion" and be done with it?

----------


## soonerguru

> As has been said in this thread servers by law make at the minimum    Min wage      Most male quite a bit more    Non make under


????

----------


## RadicalModerate

> ????


!!!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> ????


Me thinks there might have some beverage consumption with this one, particularly of the alcohol variety.

----------


## soonerguru

> Me thinks there might have some beverage consumption with this one, particularly of the alcohol variety.


Perhaps. I just don't understand the sentence; it's written in a language I don't understand.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Indeed. . . indeed, and agreed, but not without a steed.

----------


## Dubya61

> ????


My personal translation:
As has been said in this thread, servers (by law) make at [least] the minimum wage.  Most make quite a bit more.  None make under [the minimum wage].

----------


## BDK

> !!!

----------


## MsProudSooner

It's hard to imagine a billing system where this wouldn't be an option that the restaurant could choose to use or not.  I don't mind when the automatic gratuity when it's a large party.  Adding it to every ticket is a little bit much.  If it were me, I would politely let the owner/manager know that I wouldn't be returning until this policy is changed.

----------


## MsProudSooner

> Dayna Morales, Waitress And Marine, Denied Tip Because Of Her 'Gay Lifestyle'
> 
> And it wasn't even a Sunday. Seems like a good argument on why minimum wage as a "floor" should be standard.


I read an article this week about a waiter/waitress who got a religious tract printed on the back of a fake $5 bill instead of a tip.

----------


## Garin

Mysterious Man Behind Massive ?Tips for Jesus? Reportedly Identified | TheBlaze.com

----------


## trousers

> Mysterious Man Behind Massive ?Tips for Jesus? Reportedly Identified | TheBlaze.com


Jesus did say "Render unto Caesar what is Caeser's", well if Caesar does a good job waiting on my table he is guaranteed 20%.  But I could be taking the quote out of context.

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## Garin

Had this guy shown up to Irma's , the waitress just might have missed out on a 1000% tip. Further proves the point automatic tips shouldn't exist on small tables.

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## kevinpate

Never felt inclined to be quite that generous, but back when I studied until dawn after my family retired for the night, tips were often in excess of the bill.

Most nights the drink/chow order was just not a big ticket item despite the hours involved.  Even so, the multiple carafes of free coffee refills didn't get to the table by way of elves riding unicorns.  

God love the ladies of late night Norman eateries back in the day.  I can't begin to imagine what the paper chase would have been without their smiling faces and kind words in the wee hours of sooooooo many mornings. Ditto for the folks who would not interrupt the between morning class naps, which were a fair amount of my daily sleep.

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## Midtowner

> Never felt inclined to be quite that generous, but back when I studied until dawn after my family retired for the night, tips were often in excess of the bill.
> 
> Most nights the drink/chow order was just not a big ticket item despite the hours involved.  Even so, the multiple carafes of free coffee refills didn't get to the table by way of elves riding unicorns.  
> 
> God love the ladies of late night Norman eateries back in the day.  I can't begin to imagine what the paper chase would have been without their smiling faces and kind words in the wee hours of sooooooo many mornings. Ditto for the folks who would not interrupt the between morning class naps, which were a fair amount of my daily sleep.


Meh.. you speak of law school as if it was hard.

----------


## kevinpate

More lonely than hard. 

Wee hour mornings permitted my late afternoon and early eve time to be open for family. I had day classes. Hers were at night. Sleep between classes and then go read for class and for work while the family slept was reasonable time mgmt.   Without question, servers who were pleasant and efficient were much appreciated. Let's face it. The reading is more than dry at times.

As for it being hard, I imagine we both could name more than a few examples whose graduation fully dispels that notion.  :Smile:

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## hoya

I almost always tip very well.  I usually tip 20% at a minimum.  Cute girls get more.  I usually get very good service.  Like kevinpate, if I'm sitting somewhere watching a game, or just taking up a lot of time, I've sometimes tipped an amount greater than the bill.

An automatic gratuity changes all that.  I never add anything to it, and it makes me angry when I see it.  When service was bad, I've scratched it out and written in the original amount with a note about the terrible service.  Irma's is already overpriced and I've never had good service there.  I won't be going back there now.

----------


## Garin

?I Was Pretty Naive?: Waiter Has Major Regrets After Purported ?Tips for Jesus? Gratuity Flub | TheBlaze.com

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## mmonroe

I've read a few pages but not all the replies.

*Having 1. Been a server for several restaurants in my late teens and early 20's, 2. A diner at non-fast food restaurants (ie sit down), and 3. Managing partner of a sit down restaurant, I have been on ALL 3 sides of this argument.*

You as a person have 4 options when it comes to dining; eat at home, stop by a fast food place, sit at a dine in restaurant, or simply not eat at all.  Each of these has their own cost, be it monetary or to your own health.  

I'm going to focus on the fast food and sit-in options.  

*Fast Food*: You order it yourself, you get your drink yourself, the quality of the food is questionable, and you pay no one a service of doing this for you.  It's cheap, fast, and inexpensive.  Fast food changed how restaurants serve food, just as the automobile changed the dining experience.  You know the expectations of a fast food place.  Drive through, or go in and stand in line to have your order taken. Pay, get your drink (most of the time yourself) and wait for your order to be nuked/heated up and put together.  When the food is ready, you retrieve it and either eat inside or take it home.  In this model, there is no need for a server.  The fast food model places all the service on the customer and is just yet another way an industry has changed to increase profit for the owners.  

*Sit-in Dining*: This is not fast food service, the customer is not placed in the situation to do everything themselves.  Service is provided to you by a server.  Dining in at a sit-in establishment is an experience to be served while you sit, enjoy your company with you, and be waited upon by a living person that is willing and waiting to get whatever you need for your dining experience.  (This is of course "ideal" service, I don't know of one person who has at least once in their life not experienced bad service - forgotten drink refills, wrong/messed up orders, inattentive servers, etc.)  Tipping is YOU paying for the service provided to YOU along with the cost of your food and drink.  (I personally believe that you SHOULD NOT BE FORCED TO TIP, which might sound contradictory to what i'm typing here, but finish reading all that I have to say first.)  

Traditionally, and with the rise in inflation, the 'suggested' tip has been a percentage of the total bill ranging in 10% in the early to late '90's and increasing all the way up to 18-20% of the total bill in 2014.  I believe this model of tipping is out dated for the service provided and the increased cost of living.  Tipping should be a sliding scale that is based on the quality of the service you received by dining in at a "server based business model" type of restaurant.  IMO, A tip for excellent service would be $1.50-2/diner up to 6 people, and $1-1.50/diner for 7+, and never less than $2 over all for not so great service.  If the service was bad enough that you don't want to leave a tip, inform a manger, let them know, this is the only way someone will know that the quality of service is lacking in that establishment.  (Unfortunately, servers are not going to tell their boss that they are not getting tipped because they could lose their job. Also, not tipping will develop a reputation that spreads like wildfire through an establishment, and you'll probably never get better than lack luster service as a form of shunning you from the establishment for poor tipping by the servers themselves. It happens.)  

Restaurants with a server based business model are designed this way to keep quality food at a reasonable price while providing a better atmosphere for your dining experience.  Getting better quality ingredients for restaurants is not a cheap endeavor.  Compare the price of a burger at an "organic" establishment vs McDonalds.  You literally get what you pay for.  I prefer to eat real food and not preservatives or additives, if I can help it, and sometimes that means paying more, but not so much is too expensive and not feasible to purchase.  Two things have to happen to be profitable and maintain a certain price point, all while paying for everything else in the business.  That $8.50 hamburger goes to pay for a lot of stuff before it ever becomes profit.  So how does the restaurant provide quality ingredients without raising the price point?  Cheaper employees.  Without raising the cost of your food to pay a server minimum wage, a server based model is used.  With the server based business model you actually are paying for that server one way or another, but at least with tipping, you get to choose how much your overall price will be.  You could potentially pay 25% more with a raised price point to pay servers minimum wage and you don't have to tip, or you pay a lower price point, and you choose the amount to tip which would be lower than 25%.  Raising the price points and paying minimum wage would change the entire business model of the restaurant and then you'd complain that the food cost too much because they would have to compensate for extra expenditures.  

You can even view a restaurant model like as a triangle; food, service, and cost.  Two of those can be great, but the other one will be lacking.  
Example, Economically priced food with minimum wage employees gives you low quality food.  (I didn't say not edible)  If you want quality food and minimum wage employees, expects to pay a higher price.  If you want quality food at a reasonable price, you'll need lower waged employees.  

If you choose not to tip, either tell the server ahead of time and expect to get your own drinks, order your own food, and expect no service at all or take your butt down to a fast food place.  You may find it hard to access the employee only kitchen, or log into a POS to place an order.  You might as well go sit at the bar and order your food there.  Dining in at a restaurant comes with a service fee that you get to regulate (which doesn't mean choosing to tip 0) while keeping your food at a good price for better ingredients and a better experience.  If you hate this model of business, then change capitalism.  Better yet, contact your state representative and have a bill drawn up to raise the server minimum wage.  If you don't have enough money to tip, take an order to go, you can still enjoy the food without the service and atmosphere.  It's like paying a cover charge to a night club, and still having to pay for drinks at the bar.  If you want in to party and buy drinks, you pay the cover charge.

Sometimes people say servers brag about a $300 or $400 night, thats exactly it, it's one night.  All the other shifts you're lucky to have made $20-40.  Not to mention if you have to tip out the bar staff and bus boys.  While there is an Oklahoma law that says that in a pay period, if a server did not make at least an hourly minimum wage with a combination of their minimum hourly wage plus tips/compensation, the restaurant then has to pay them to equal the amount of minimum wage worked for those hours.

A lot of non tippers, I would put money on this, have NEVER worked as a server in their life.  They obviously talk about a subject and make judgement there on all while having absolutely no clue as to what they are talking about and base everything on assumptions or speculated rumor they hear.    

The next complaint I hear is why do I have to pay for something that requires absolutely no skill to possess.  Again, that person has probably never been a server.  There are tons of skills required to be a server and it's a bit more stressful than you would think.  Time Management, Attention to Detail, Memorization, Social Skills, Salesmanship and Customer Relations.  Not to mention it is one of the most humbling jobs you will ever have.  You learn how it is to serve and accept attitude and some times humility from customers all while maintaining a level of integrity while managing to do so with a smile and managing all the other tables in your section.  To be put through that and not receive a tip after providing service knowing you only make $2.13 an hour can be a real let down.  

If you know a restaurant has servers, and you're obviously going to have to tip, then my only question is, why are you so surprised about tipping or having gratuity added?  Tipping is not new and it's a global thing, not just American.  I don't believe you should be forced to pay gratuity or a tip, but don't think you should run out and pay nothing on a service that was rendered to you.  

If you still want to be waited on and eat quality food at a reasonable price but not tip, expect to be given less than quality service the next time you come in, and not everyone has integrity, you might end up in a scene like the movie "Waiting" or "Waiting 2".  

Not all restaurants are the same, some are busy and some are slow.  Busier place turn over more tables, which means more tips for a server.  Slower places mean lower tips for a server.  There are servers that are "rock stars" and make more money in a month than most people that work professional careers.  Then there are servers who can not get any other kind of job and the only place that will higher them are the slower restaurants because of high turnover rates in employment because servers don't get paid well enough at that establishment.  The busier places are realizing they can shrink the sections that servers have and are thus given fewer tables and don't make as much as they use to.  

It really is hard to make a living off of server wages now a days, but what would happen to dine-in restaurants without servers?  Something will eventually change, but it's going to cost you the consumer in the end.  I also think that sometimes people forget that servers are people too.  You never know why that person is working there and making a statement like "if you don't get paid enough, go work somewhere else" and sometimes thats easier said than done.  

////////////////////////////  END OF RANT  ////////////////////////////////

----------


## Anonymous.

Is change finally coming to this corrupt industry?!

Not sure what 35K/year equivalent would be here in OKC, but it would be amazing if all restaraunt employees got livable wages that weren't majority charity.

A Restaurant Just Banned Tips - Business Insider

----------


## Teo9969

> Is change finally coming to this corrupt industry?!
> 
> Not sure what 35K/year equivalent would be here in OKC, but it would be amazing if all restaraunt employees got livable wages that weren't majority charity.
> 
> A Restaurant Just Banned Tips - Business Insider


bank rate says the equivalent here would be approx. $32.7k

As to whether industry wide change is coming…well…this has to actually work. That's the catch. 

How it affects customers: Are they going to be charging a service fee? If they don't increase the menu prices but increase their FOH costs by like 1,000% … they're gonna have to make it up somewhere. Surely they'll get some new tax write-offs and maybe they can add a variety of responsibilities to the FOH staff that they didn't have before, but 1,000% increase is a lot. So I doubt customers are going to be paying the exact same they are now for the exact same product. Maybe if they're not tipping 20% and only have to pay a 10%/15%/18% service fee they'll actually save, but customers are not going to save every penny of their would-have-been-tip.

The servers also are going to have to give up some things as well: Far less flexibility in schedule (a major perk in the restaurant industry), decreased (if any) ability to work part-time and go to school, taxing of *all* their income, more accountability for their mistakes and company losses (breakage, table leaving without payment, incorrect ordering, etc.)

There's no reason it can't work, but it becomes a very different business model when you do it this way.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Is change finally coming to this corrupt industry?!
> 
> Not sure what 35K/year equivalent would be here in OKC, but it would be amazing if all restaraunt employees got livable wages that weren't majority charity.
> A Restaurant Just Banned Tips - Business Insider


Will be interesting to see how they are doing a year from now.  Just doing rough math.  20 employees x $45k (35k base salary but with benefits, employer's tax contributions/comp, unemployment insurance will be easily over 10k/yr per employee)=900,000 a year just in labor expense.  According to their website, they are only open 53 hours per week which means they have to generate $326.56 per open hour just to pay payroll.  Looking at the limited menu, the dinner items range from $10 -$32 for a steak with most in the high teens range.

The only thing I can think of is they are pushing a lot of alcohol sales which is quite possible looking at their late hours.  Hopefully it works for them,  It seems to work in other countries.

----------


## Anonymous.

Nice breakdown, jeep. I, too, looked at the menu to see their pricing. It does look like quite the uphill climb to be profitable.

Perhaps they are also depending slightly on the uniqueness and added public exposure by doing this. This is basically uncharted territory for restaraunts in America. Also you will need less management/HR to hire and find people like most restaraunts have constantly due to extremely high turnover. Where it looks like there is a lot of added expense in doing this, there could very well be underlying savings.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Nice breakdown, jeep. I, too, looked at the menu to see their pricing. It does look like quite the uphill climb to be profitable.
> 
> Perhaps they are also depending slightly on the uniqueness and added public exposure by doing this. This is basically uncharted territory for restaraunts in America. Also you will need less management/HR to hire and find people like most restaraunts have constantly due to extremely high turnover. Where it looks like there is a lot of added expense in doing this, there could very well be underlying savings.


That is great point on turnover expenses.  Another factor is that you may end up with a higher level of staff as they are full time professionals and not students working part time

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## Teo9969

Equally, you eventually have to pay those staff. There are plenty of servers in OKC making $40k+/year and more than you would think making upward of $60k. 

How long does it take @ Bar Marco's for the highest paid server to max-out with the company? Is it a wage that a veteran server will sustain, or will that person move on after 7 or 8 years because $50k is their ceiling? 

Also, this is not unchartered territory, even in the US. There have been a slew of restaurants going over to this model. It's still a small minority, but it's a tide that will affect all the boats eventually. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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