# OKCpedia > Businesses & Employers >  Boeing

## betts

Contract offers growth for Boeing (DOK)

USAF Picks Boeing Over Pemco For KC-135 PDM
Aviation Now | 9/11/2007

By JaRena Lunsford
Business Writer
After two years of waiting, the Boeing Co. was awarded a $1.1 billion contract from the U.S. Air Force that will involve work in Oklahoma City. 

The 10-year contract will continue Boeing's maintenance work on the KC-135 aircraft, strengthening the company's presence in Oklahoma. 

"This means we will be able to continue to grow our company in Oklahoma City, said Ben T. Robinson, KC-135 program director. 

Boeing began working on securing the contract two years ago and expected to learn the results a year and a half ago. Robinson said although word on the contract did not come as soon as Boeing expected, executives are pleased the company was chosen. "We deeply appreciate the confidence the U.S. Air Force has shown in the Boeing Co., he said. 

Boeing is no stranger to the KC-135. Along with building the aerial refueling aircraft more than 50 years ago, Boeing has been under contract to provide depot maintenance on the Air Force's fleet of more than 200 KC-135s since 1998. 

"Always on time, the Boeing KC-135 (programmed depot maintenance) program has a solid track record with proven results, Pat Finneran said in a statement. Finneran is president of Boeing Support Systems.

Boeing's program depot maintenance program management office is in Oklahoma City, near Tinker Air Force Base. The company has 80 employees in Oklahoma, 75 in Missouri and 300 in San Antonio, Texas. 

Robinson said although the contract does not necessarily mean Boeing will add employees in Oklahoma City, the deal does result in job security for current employees.

"It certainly means we won't be losing any people, Robinson said. 

The contract also is a sign that the Air Force won't be losing the aging KC-135 anytime soon, Robinson said. Boeing plans on modifying the plane. Although the KC-X is expected to eventually phase out the KC-135, Robinson said the latter still has many years of flight left.

"There's no reason it can't be around another 30 to 35 years, he said. Robinson said he expects Boeing to be along side the KC-135 during those years as well.

"Boeing built this airplane and we have a tremendous amount of pride in it, he said. "We will never step away from it. We will be there until the day they retire this aircraft.

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## OKCMallen

OKLAHOMA CITY -- The Boeing Company says it is relocating two programs from Long Beach, Calif., to Oklahoma City, a move expected to bring 550 engineering jobs to the state.

Boeing announced in a news release Monday it is moving its C-130 Avionics Modernization program to Oklahoma City beginning in the first quarter of 2011. The move of the B-1 program is expected toward the end of 2012.

Both programs are part of the Maintenance, Modifications & Upgrades division of the company's St. Louis-based Boeing Defense, Space & Security.

MM&U Vice President and General Manager Mark Bass says the relocation will help Boeing "provide a more competitive cost structure for customers."

Boeing says some California employees will be relocated, while other positions will be hired locally.

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## OKCMallen

Doesn't look like call center jobs.   :Big Grin:

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## Rover

Great news.

In my opinion, if Oklahoma focused on relocating businesses here from California alone it would have great success quickly.  The state is in trouble and people are tired of paying the high price to be there.  I am helping move 2 companies here from the LA area and when we compared, it wasn't even close.  A slam dunk.  Only question was whether to move it to OKC, Dallas or Denver.  OKC won out.  Cali is fertile ground.

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## PennyQuilts

That would be outstanding.

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## adaniel

This is great news! Its definitely the largest corporate relocation to OKC since I've been here. Anyone care to guess when there was one larger?

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## Kerry

> This is great news! Its definitely the largest corporate relocation to OKC since I've been here. Anyone care to guess when there was one larger?


When the Texas State Legislature tried to hide in Ardmore?

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## OKCMallen

> When the Texas State Legislature tried to hide in Ardmore?


Heh.


Amazing to have these types of ENGINEERING jobs coming into the state.  What's the opposite of brain drain?  Brain regain?

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## Pete

Fantastic news!

OKC is way cheaper than Denver and less expensive than most parts of Dallas.

As the city's reputation continues to grow on a national stage, I think we'll see more of this, similar to what happened to Charlotte, Austin, Vegas, etc.


If you were a company looking for a nice place to operate a business where you could be efficient and still provide a great lifestyle to your employees, it would be hard to not take a hard look at Oklahoma City.

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## Easy180

Bring on the 6 figure geeks!

Awesome news for sure

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## foodiefan

both of these programs are tied/related to the Oklahoma City Air Logistics Center at Tinker.   Cheer those folks on!!

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## redrunner

I'll drink to that!

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## ronronnie1

> Fantastic news!
> 
> OKC is way cheaper than Denver and less expensive than most parts of Dallas.
> 
> As the city's reputation continues to grow on a national stage, I think we'll see more of this, similar to what happened to *Charlotte, Austin, Vegas, etc*.
> 
> 
> If you were a company looking for a nice place to operate a business where you could be efficient and still provide a great lifestyle to your employees, it would be hard to not take a hard look at Oklahoma City.


Yes this.  Except hopefully not the part about being like Charlotte (can you say banking bust?) or Vegas (needs no explanation.)

Great news nonetheless.

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## BG918

> both of these programs are tied/related to the Oklahoma City Air Logistics Center at Tinker.   Cheer those folks on!!


So will the facility be at Tinker or WRWA?

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## progressiveboy

> This is great news! Its definitely the largest corporate relocation to OKC since I've been here. Anyone care to guess when there was one larger?


Clarification, this is "not" a corporate relocation of their HQ just jobs at an airplane factory. This is great news for OKC. It would be great if a major company moves into Devon Energy old tower when they relocate to the new one? Would be great if they were high paying white collar jobs!

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## okcpulse

> Bring on the 6 figure geeks!
> 
> Awesome news for sure


Those kind of remarks make me proud to be a geek!

I think it's hilarious that when people here in Houston discover I am from Oklahoma City, they are left dumbfounded that there are software geeks that come from Oklahoma.  Although lately they've changed their tune, thanks to a combination of press from OKC and my ambassadorship as a proud OKC native.  I've schooled them several times.

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## bluedogok

> When the Texas State Legislature tried to hide in Ardmore?


That was the Texas Democrats in the state legislature, the Democrats in the Senate went to Santa Fe, New Mexico. All that was in the redistricting battle in the 2003 session.

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## PennyQuilts

> Those kind of remarks make me proud to be a geek!
> 
> I think it's hilarious that when people here in Houston discover I am from Oklahoma City, they are left dumbfounded that there are software geeks that come from Oklahoma.  Although lately they've changed their tune, thanks to a combination of press from OKC and my ambassadorship as a proud OKC native.  I've schooled them several times.


Keep up the good work!

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## SkyWestOKC

> Clarification, this is "not" a corporate relocation of their HQ just jobs at an airplane factory. This is great news for OKC. It would be great if a major company moves into Devon Energy old tower when they relocate to the new one? Would be great if they were high paying white collar jobs!


Gee thanks, us wrench benders and hangar rats are worthless to the economy. Keep in mind these are $30-100K+ a year jobs.... Not bad at all.

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## Thunder

Are they moving into the old Devon mini-tower?

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## HOT ROD

mini-tower? 

it is a 19-storey tower that is at least 300 feet. ...

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## Thunder

Yeah, that is mini.  Chase is the mega.  The new Devon tower is the monster.

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## SkyWestOKC

No office jobs are moving in. There will be SOME office jobs, but not enough to be significant. I'm sure all jobs will be located at Tinker.

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## CO-To-OKC

Pete, you are spot on. The cost of living and the cost of doing business in the Denver metro area is ridiculously high compared to Oklahoma City, and it has been that way for years. From what I understand, at least 2 major companies that were headquartered in Denver (Qwest Communications and Frontier Airlines) have moved to other parts of the country in the past 2 years because the state taxed them out. The state has very high taxes on everything, including a $.01 "soda tax"  :Please:  that was recently implemented for any item that has sugar (soda, candy bars, etc.).

IMO, Colorado is setting itself up for disaster and may become another California in 20-30 years...

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## jbrown84

Great news indeed! Doesn't sound like we had to throw cash at them to get it, either.




> When the Texas State Legislature tried to hide in Ardmore?


 :LolLolLolLol:

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## bluedogok

Frontier merged with Republic out of Indy earlier this year. I haven't heard of Qwest relocating.

We are considering whether to move to Denver or stay in Austin again, mainly to get away from the heat/humidity....we are just tired of it.

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## jn1780

So are they building new facilities or just cramming into the old ones?

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## SkyWestOKC

Frontier was bought by Republic, Midwest was bought by Republic. Frontier and Midwest are merging and moving their offices to Indy.

Maintenance did move out of DEN to Milwaukee. The city of Denver did place a tax on aircraft delivered to Denver, though. Since most planes straight from delivery go to a maintenance shop, they usually went to Frontier's Denver Maintenance base.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

Now if only these engineers will want to move downtown, possibly take up some empty buildings in The Hill.  That would be awesome.

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## soonerguru

> Now if only these engineers will want to move downtown, possibly take up some empty buildings in The Hill.  That would be awesome.


Downtown is actually a great location for jobs at Tinker. EASY 10 minute commute.

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## jbrown84

> Clarification, this is just jobs at an airplane factory.


They aren't factory jobs.  They are engineers and researchers.

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## architect5311

Boeing 200,000 SF office building near Tinker....

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## jbrown84

Is that a rendering?

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## Thundercitizen

Just south of Tinker's Air Depot gate.

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## plmccordj

That building has been there for about four years at SE 59th and Air Depot between Tinker and I-240.  I have been in it many times.

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## PennyQuilts

My experience is that the engineers like to actually be near the planes, including the guys that work on them.  That is one thing I love about engineers.

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## BG918

> Frontier merged with Republic out of Indy earlier this year. I haven't heard of Qwest relocating.
> 
> We are considering whether to move to Denver or stay in Austin again, mainly to get away from the heat/humidity....we are just tired of it.


Qwest moved its HQ from Denver to Monroe, LA after a merger.

And about Denver, I struggle with the same decision each summer.  I used to live there and the summers are very nice compared to Oklahoma/Texas.

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## bombermwc

Yeah there's no reason for them to move downtown. That's too far away compared to being right off the runway where the new facility is. Sorry folks.

But, The old office space in the MWC area that Boeing had is still available...ie 29th and Sooner. Lockheed, Northrup, Pratt and Whitney, etc....they all still have offices in the area. When Boeing built the new facility, they freed up a lot of space in those areas. Plus, there's still an entire pad side open for another building should they chose to build.

Otherwise, there's actually plenty room over by the new Boeing building as well. 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43309757@N05/4856952802/

Also, anyone know how to get a Flickr url for the image and not the page? It's annoying having to use the URL....

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## MadMonk

Like this?


Right-click the image on Flickr and choose Copy Image Location (Firefox) or for IE choose Properties and then copy the URL.  Come back here and choose the "Insert Image" button on the toolbar above the post and put the URL in there.

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## Kerry

> Yeah there's no reason for them to move downtown. That's too far away compared to being right off the runway where the new facility is. Sorry folks.


I think the comment was directed at them living downtown, not working downtown.

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## metro

> Yeah there's no reason for them to move downtown. That's too far away compared to being right off the runway where the new facility is. Sorry folks.
> 
> But, The old office space in the MWC area that Boeing had is still available...ie 29th and Sooner. Lockheed, Northrup, Pratt and Whitney, etc....they all still have offices in the area. When Boeing built the new facility, they freed up a lot of space in those areas. Plus, there's still an entire pad side open for another building should they chose to build.
> 
> Otherwise, there's actually plenty room over by the new Boeing building as well. 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/43309757@N05/4856952802/
> 
> Also, anyone know how to get a Flickr url for the image and not the page? It's annoying having to use the URL....


Reread the posters comment, it was about them living downtown, not moving the Boeing facility downtown. He said he hoped the engineers would gobble up some of the vacant downtown units for sale.

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## SkyWestOKC

I don't know if they would move right in to downtown. After them living in California and paying 250,000 for a shack 10 miles from the beach and no yard, I bet they will all move to the suburbs and pay 300,000 for a nice big house with a big yard.

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## metro

Not necessarily. Some are used to the urban lifestyle and want to keep it. Plenty of Tinker folks living downtown. Also, especially if they continue to develop that rail line from Tinker to Downtown it would make it even more desirable.

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## Pete

> paying 250,000 for a shack 10 miles from the beach and no yard


It would be at least $500K for a crappy place in that area.

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## SoonerDave

> It would be at least $500K for a crappy place in that area.


Yup.

When a former neighbor of mine retired from a job in California (a loong time ago, before all the financial meltdowns), he sold his house out there and moved here to be close to one of his kids. He told me that his daughter faxed him photos of homes near where she lived in SW OKC, and he thought the fax machine had literally cut off one of the zeroes from the price listings. When she told him, "no, dad, that's how much these houses cost out here," he bought a place based solely on the picture and pocketed an astonishing amount of change from the sale of the California home. 

After he'd been here a year or so, he'd tell me how Oklahoma was an "awesome" place to live and how it was one of the "best kept secrets anywhere." He loved the people, the cost of living, everything. We moved to a different neighborhood a few years later, but I visit that area frequently and he's still there, over a decade later...

The point in all that is that someone with appreciable equity in a California home and able to sell it for what might be termed the "going" rates there could become a relatively very wealthy individual in this part of the country...

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## Kerry

> The point in all that is that someone with appreciable equity in a California home and able to sell it for what might be termed the "going" rates there could become a relatively very wealthy individual in this part of the country...


There is the problem.  Unless these people have been paying on their home for 15 years they aren't going anywhere.  I have friends in California that would love to move but unless they want to keep making loan payments on a home they no longer live in they can't do it.  California is a slow motion train wreck in progress.

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## PennyQuilts

> Reread the posters comment, it was about them living downtown, not moving the Boeing facility downtown. He said he hoped the engineers would gobble up some of the vacant downtown units for sale.


Well, I can see that.  Maybe some will.  Most engineers I know of, however, are way too practical to want to spend more for less and if they have families, they tend to be pretty traditional and want a little room and good schools.

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## Kerry

> Well, I can see that.  Maybe some will.  Most engineers I know of, however, are way too practical to want to spend more for less and if they have families, they tend to be pretty traditional and want a little room and good schools.


These people were working in Long Beach - 'practical' left the building a long time ago.

I did find this postcard interesting.  Look familiar?

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## barnold

This should be good news to see some of the aircraft industry wanting to come back here.  With TAFB acquisition of the old GM plant, I hope we see some more expansion in the future.

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## Spartan

> So will the facility be at Tinker or WRWA?


Edit: Already answered up there ^

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## redrunner

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/busin...heaper-locale/
Found an informative article out of Tacoma, WA.  Maybe other corporations will take notice that Oklahoma is a low-cost state.

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## Oil Capital

> Qwest moved its HQ from Denver to Monroe, LA after a merger.


No it didn't.  Qwest is still headquartered in Denver.  (at least that's what Qwest seems to think according to their website.)  ;-)

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## CO-To-OKC

> No it didn't.  Qwest is still headquartered in Denver.  (at least that's what Qwest seems to think according to their website.)  ;-)


I think they're in the process of moving to Louisiana right now. They announced the decision in March or April of this year.

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## bluedogok

> There is the problem.  Unless these people have been paying on their home for 15 years they aren't going anywhere.  I have friends in California that would love to move but unless they want to keep making loan payments on a home they no longer live in they can't do it.  California is a slow motion train wreck in progress.


We had quite a few engineers from California come to work for us in OKC, many moved because they could afford to as most were in their 50's and had bought their houses out there in the early 90's. They came to Oklahoma to work until retirement and retire comfortably. Some familial connections to Oklahoma so that made it an easier decision for most.




> I think they're in the process of moving to Louisiana right now. They announced the decision in March or April of this year.


 I found an article from last week about the issue.

The Denver Post - After several headquarters losses, Colorado labors to boost its corporate clout

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## Oil Capital

I see.  Thanks for the clarification and info.

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## jbrown84

> http://blog.thenewstribune.com/busin...heaper-locale/
> Found an informative article out of Tacoma, WA.  Maybe other corporations will take notice that Oklahoma is a low-cost state.


I see the folks up there are still bitter. From the comments: "Oklahoma is a champion.....in the race to the bottom."

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## Spartan

The "race to the bottom" comment is actually accurate in competing to be the lowest-cost place in my opinion...

Seattle v. Oklahoma...come on lol.

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## Larry OKC

Why do we have this Bass Ackwards approach to things?

AFTER Boeing announced on Monday that they ARE relocating about 500 jobs to OKC. Then it was reported the City will be "likely" be giving Boeing incentives.




> Boeing likely will receive some kind of economic incentives from the city to move jobs here, Assistant City Manager Cathy O'Connor said.
> 
> "We don't know the amount yet," she said.
> 
> O'Connor said Boeing could be eligible for job creation grants from the city's strategic investment program, which is bankrolled by economic development funds approved by voters in 2007.
> 
> The Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust is expected to authorize the city manager to negotiate with Boeing.


Negotiate? Negotiate what? You offer incentives to someone who is thinking about relocating, or beef up your incentives if you have made it as a finalist. You don't offer incentives AFTER they have already made the announcement they are coming!

Nothing against Boeing and the good, high paying jobs that are coming this way. Don't even have a problem with some sort of "thank you".

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## okcpulse

> Why do we have this Bass Ackwards approach to things?
> 
> AFTER Boeing announced on Monday that they ARE relocating about 500 jobs to OKC. Then it was reported the City will be "likely" be giving Boeing incentives.
> 
> 
> 
> Negotiate? Negotiate what? You offer incentives to someone who is thinking about relocating, or beef up your incentives if you have made it as a finalist. You don't offer incentives AFTER they have already made the announcement they are coming!
> 
> Nothing against Boeing and the good, high paying jobs that are coming this way. Don't even have a problem with some sort of "thank you".


Those a job incentives as opposed to building incentives.  Once the city knows the exact amount of payroll Boeing plans to roll out in Oklahoma, then the city can determine the exact amount of incentives.

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## Larry OKC

Job incentives?  Not sure what you mean as they have announced the jobs are coming and the number. Now if you are talking about negotiating and offering incentives to bring even more than the announced numbers and/or job categories not included in the announcement, that would be another matter.

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## OSUFan

I have no idea but imagine incentives have been discussed from day one.

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## shadow42

Having recently moved from socal in 2008, and a husband that works on the B1 program we are thinking very few engineers will actually make the move.  Why?  They won't want to live in OK and/or they are upside down on their homes.  My guess is maybe 20% will make the relocation.  But, you never know in this job mkt what will happen.

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## Kerry

> Having recently moved from socal in 2008, and a husband that works on the B1 program we are thinking very few engineers will actually make the move.  Why?  They won't want to live in OK and/or they are upside down on their homes.  My guess is maybe 20% will make the relocation.  But, you never know in this job mkt what will happen.


That sounds about right.  Unless people have been in their homes for 15 or more years they won't be able to move even if they want to.  I would prefer to have the jobs and leave the Californians in California anyhow (I can say this because I am a former Californian myself).

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## OKCMallen

> Having recently moved from socal in 2008, and a husband that works on the B1 program we are thinking very few engineers will actually make the move.  Why?  They won't want to live in OK and/or they are upside down on their homes.  My guess is maybe 20% will make the relocation.  But, you never know in this job mkt what will happen.


Works for me.  Let's have some OU grads take some of those jobs.

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## SOONER8693

I remember when GM opened here, and there was an influx of Californians into OKC area. I was a young, beginning teacher at that time. If the people from Cali are the same caliber as those "kids" and their parents, I hope all of them stay in the land of "fruits and nuts".

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## soonerguru

> I remember when GM opened here, and there was an influx of Californians into OKC area. I was a young, beginning teacher at that time. If the people from Cali are the same caliber as those "kids" and their parents, I hope all of them stay in the land of "fruits and nuts".


Nice welcoming Oklahoma attitude. I'm sure we don't want a bunch of "nutty" engineers with their "fruity" ideas moving here. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Oklahoma becoming a diverse and interesting place to live, welcoming to all, including "nuts," "fruits," and others.

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## Kerry

> Nice welcoming Oklahoma attitude. I'm sure we don't want a bunch of "nutty" engineers with their "fruity" ideas moving here. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Oklahoma becoming a diverse and interesting place to live, welcoming to all, including "nuts," "fruits," and others.


If they are the same ones that participated in running California into 'debt hell' then you better be careful what wish for.  Oklahoma is not the only state that looks on relocating California residents with a skeptical eye.  Just see what people in Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Arizona think of their recent California refugees.  Now granted, these people are probably not part of the entitlement crowd but you never know.

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## soonerguru

> If they are the same ones that participated in running California into 'debt hell' then you better be careful what wish for.  Oklahoma is not the only state that looks on relocating California residents with a skeptical eye.  Just see what people in Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Arizona think of their recent California refugees.  Now granted, these people are probably not part of the entitlement crowd but you never know.


Somehow I doubt engineers at Boeing are responsible for California's debt problems.

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## SOONER8693

> Nice welcoming Oklahoma attitude. I'm sure we don't want a bunch of "nutty" engineers with their "fruity" ideas moving here. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Oklahoma becoming a diverse and interesting place to live, welcoming to all, including "nuts," "fruits," and others.


I'm as welcoming as anybody, thank you. But, I'm also a realist and I know what we got in the past. So, bring them on if they will add to the quality of life in Oklahoma, if not, stay there. Now, if you have a problem with my opinion, tough.

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## SoonerDave

My how the Grapes of Wrath have reversed  :Smile:

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## BG918

> That sounds about right.  Unless people have been in their homes for 15 or more years they won't be able to move even if they want to.  I would prefer to have the jobs and leave the Californians in California anyhow (I can say this because I am a former Californian myself).


Have home values fallen that much there?  I guess for people who bought during the bubble in the early-mid 2000's and are trying to sell now.  You don't have that problem at all in Oklahoma.  Your value doesn't go up much but if you make some improvements you can at least expect to break even if your house is in a good area.

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## soonerguru

> Have home values fallen that much there?  I guess for people who bought during the bubble in the early-mid 2000's and are trying to sell now.  You don't have that problem at all in Oklahoma.  Your value doesn't go up much but if you make some improvements you can at least expect to break even if your house is in a good area.


Depends. Definitely NOT in the Bay Area. I seriously doubt LA has seen much if any decline. The major upside down real estate declines in Cali are in the valley and in the interior cities like Sacramento.

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## adaniel

> Depends. Definitely NOT in the Bay Area. I seriously doubt LA has seen much if any decline. The major upside down real estate declines in Cali are in the valley and in the interior cities like Sacramento.


The Bay Area has natural geographic constraints that put pressure on any new development. Plus, the Web 2.0 companies (Youtube, Facebook, Google, etc.) are doing pretty well so employment in high tech is holding up.

Where most of these Boeing workers are coming from (South Bay part of LA I'm assuming), its pretty ugly. I've got a family member who lives in the OC and has been trying to cash out some rental properties in Torrance/El Segundo area. He gave up when he found out he was upside down about 35% (he bought in 2005). You are right about the inland areas though. They are basically selling homes below replacement value in some spots.

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## Rover

Inland Empire in LA (Riverside County) and much of Orange County is down 35-40% on real estate values from 3-5 years ago.  It is UGLY with many foreclosures and most upsided down.  Beach cities are bad too, but not as bad.  Long Beach area is not good.

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## ljbab728

> I'm as welcoming as anybody, thank you. But, I'm also a realist and I know what we got in the past. So, bring them on if they will add to the quality of life in Oklahoma, if not, stay there. Now, if you have a problem with my opinion, tough.


And how do you propose that we accomplish this?  Are going to have a battery of tests and screenings for anyone moving into our state?  I know many wonderful people who have moved here from all parts of the country including California.  Maybe you just know the wrong people.

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## OKCMallen

> I'm as welcoming as anybody, thank you. But, I'm also a realist and I know what we got in the past. So, bring them on if they will add to the quality of life in Oklahoma, if not, stay there. Now, if you have a problem with my opinion, tough.


That's the opposite of welcoming.  "I only want you here if I perceive benefit."

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## soonerguru

> Inland Empire in LA (Riverside County) and much of Orange County is down 35-40% on real estate values from 3-5 years ago.  It is UGLY with many foreclosures and most upsided down.  Beach cities are bad too, but not as bad.  Long Beach area is not good.


Would that make this a good time to buy a beach condo?

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## Kerry

> Would that make this a good time to buy a beach condo?


No, because it is going to get worse in California.  Besides, the ocean along California is like 58 degrees.  At least buy where you can go in the water.

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## Spartan

> If the people from Cali are the same caliber as those "kids" and their parents, I hope all of them stay in the land of "fruits and nuts".


Kind of like how you should have stayed in backwoods Arkansas?

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## SOONER8693

Whatever, I assume you know what whatever means these days. Whatever you. You should have stayed wherever you came from. You have pissed off most everyone on this board, just like you did on the Skyscraper forum. You made everyone sick of Oklahoma on that forum and left them hating Oklahoma, so, let me repeat, Whatever you.

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## soonerguru

> No, because it is going to get worse in California.  Besides, the ocean along California is like 58 degrees.  At least buy where you can go in the water.


I've been in the water in the San Diego area. It was fine.

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## Rover

> Would that make this a good time to buy a beach condo?


LOL.  People here balk at $200 ft.  Being "down" at Newport Beach, Laguna, etc. still means it is two or three times OKC prices.

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## Larry OKC

> No, because it is going to get worse in California.  Besides, the ocean along California is like 58 degrees.  At least buy where you can go in the water.


58 degree water sounds real good about now....

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## mugofbeer

> Would that make this a good time to buy a beach condo?


I think it's like a sale at Neimans or Nordstrom's.  Discounted 35-40% off of what?

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## Kerry

> 58 degree water sounds real good about now....


Until you die of hypothermia.

BTW - water temp today (hottest month of the year) in San Diego is 63 to 66 degrees.  Without a wet suit you could be dead in about 2 hours.  That would ruin a day at the beach.

Anyhow -we got way off topic.

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## SkyWestOKC

It's still nice on a good summer day. I love going to Santa Monica, CA (LA Area). Nice 76 degree air, nice cool water. Go for a 5 minute swim, then lay on the beach and let the sun warm you up. Nice stuff; 20 minutes is about the most you can stand anyway, no one sits and bobs in the waves for 2 hours anyway. Going to the beach means getting wet and then laying down on the sand. 30 minutes of bobbing in the waves will make you sick to your stomach anyway.

----------


## BDP

Glad to see we're living up to that "big friendly" image.

The last time I was in Southern California, I had someone show me around the grocery store to find the stuff I was looking for, someone else helped me find my way in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and had some locals buy us some drinks when they found out we were visiting from out of town. However, in Oklahoma when some well educated, well employed Californians may be MOVING here, we have people wanting to tell them to go back to the land of fruits and nuts.

Lesson: there are a-holes and nice people everywhere.

Stay classy Oklahoma!

----------


## dmoor82

Check out this article from The Los Angeles Daily news and read The comments!http://www.dailynews.com/health/ci_15658919

----------


## Spartan

> Whatever, I assume you know what whatever means these days. Whatever you. You should have stayed wherever you came from. You have pissed off most everyone on this board, just like you did on the Skyscraper forum. You made everyone sick of Oklahoma on that forum and left them hating Oklahoma, so, let me repeat, Whatever you.


Well alrighty then..

Everyone say "Aye" if you're pissed off with me. On a side note, in a few more posts from SOONER8693, we'll need to get a Hall of Fame to stick this thread in.

----------


## Popsy

> Well alrighty then..
> 
> Everyone say "Aye" if you're pissed off with me. On a side note, in a few more posts from SOONER8693, we'll need to get a Hall of Fame to stick this thread in.


I am not pissed off at you sparky, but I do feel sorry for you.  You must have had a very lonely childhood.

----------


## Spartan

So why do you feel sorry for me, Popsy?

I hardly even said anything in this thread, ironically.

----------


## ljbab728

> Well alrighty then..
> 
> Everyone say "Aye" if you're pissed off with me. On a side note, in a few more posts from SOONER8693, we'll need to get a Hall of Fame to stick this thread in.


As long as we don't discuss deannexation, you and I get along fine Spartan.  I agree with most of your points.

----------


## Prunepicker

> OKLAHOMA CITY -- The Boeing Company says it is relocating two 
> programs from Long Beach, Calif., to Oklahoma City, a move 
> xpected to bring 550 engineering jobs to the state.


This is the C-130 contract.  Our worthless governor, "golly gee 
whiz henry", sent our C-130's to Dallas, Kansas City and other 
bases in the USA. gov "golly gee whiz" saw the fighter jets and 
thought they look soooo cool.  At Will Rogers the C-130 had a real 
purpose for the OKANG and the state of Oklahoma.  Thanks to 
gov "golly gee whiz" we no longer have the C-130's.  We have 
KC-135's.  golly gee whiz is such a dork.

Now that we may have the contract, what will "golly gee whiz" 
think of his dumber than dumb decision to listen to General 
Wright, a fighter pilot, to get rid of the C-130's (one of the 
greatest aircraft in military history) instead of keeping them?

The OKANG has no respect whatsoever for governor "golly gee 
whiz".  I know because I visit with these people on a regular 
basis.  Oh, they'll say all kinds of nice things about the govern-dork 
on TV, radio and print media (because they have too) But in 
private, they, (red, yellow, blank and white) rip the govern--dork 
to peices.  Without a shadow of doubt have little if any respect 
for the govern-dork.  henry isn't respected by any stretch of the 
imagination except for a very few who are dyed in the wool 
Democrats.  As far as those who can think, henry is a dork.  A 
100% no holds barred dork.

I'd love to tell him to his face.  Can anyone arrange it?  henry 
is such a dork.  A golly gee whiz dork.

----------


## Spartan

> As long as we don't discuss deannexation, you and I get along fine Spartan.  I agree with most of your points.


That's fine with me because right now I kinda forget where I stand on de-annexation LOL.

----------


## Spartan

Hey SOONER8693, you should get your friends at the Westboro Baptist Church to come picket the 500 new high-paying engineer jobs that Boeing is bringing to OKC. Be sure and start making your anti-Cali "fruits and nuts" (aka high-paying engineer jobs) signs in advance.

----------


## soonerguru

> This is the C-130 contract.  Our worthless governor, "golly gee 
> whiz henry", sent our C-130's to Dallas, Kansas City and other 
> bases in the USA. gov "golly gee whiz" saw the fighter jets and 
> thought they look soooo cool.  At Will Rogers the C-130 had a real 
> purpose for the OKANG and the state of Oklahoma.  Thanks to 
> gov "golly gee whiz" we no longer have the C-130's.  We have 
> KC-135's.  golly gee whiz is such a dork.
> 
> Now that we may have the contract, what will "golly gee whiz" 
> ...


Wow. I have no idea what you're talking about, but I don't see how Oklahoma would fare any better with Mensa candidates Ernest Istook and Mary Fallin. Geez.

----------


## ljbab728

> Wow. I have no idea what you're talking about, but I don't see how Oklahoma would fare any better with Mensa candidates Ernest Istook and Mary Fallin. Geez.


Dont' feel alone, soonerguru.  No one ever understands what prunepicker is talking about except him.  If you don't believe it, just ask him.  LOL

----------


## Kerry

> Check out this article from The Los Angeles Daily news and read The comments!http://www.dailynews.com/health/ci_15658919


I left California for good in 1990 (at the age of 20) because I could see the train wreck coming.  Smartest thing I ever did.  It was interesting to read the comments from the California perspective.  There was only 1 negative comment about Oklahoma and the rest seemed to be from people that now understand the problems California is facing.  The only problem is they woke-up too late to do anything about it.  The demise of California was decades in the making and the coming collapse has a lot of momentum behind it.

----------


## Spartan

Saying you left Cali because you could see the train wreck coming is like saying you left Oklahoma because of right-wing politics. Come on, what happens in state capitols across America is a farce, and fortunately, has _very little_ impact on people's actual lives...

I imagine I could easily live a decent life in Cali as long as I could find a decent job, and completely tune out the political mess, scandals, and financial collapse.

----------


## Kerry

> Saying you left Cali because you could see the train wreck coming is like saying you left Oklahoma because of right-wing politics. Come on, what happens in state capitols across America is a farce, and fortunately, has _very little_ impact on people's actual lives...
> 
> I imagine I could easily live a decent life in Cali as long as I could find a decent job, and completely tune out the political mess, scandals, and financial collapse.


Tell the people of California that actions in Sacramento aren't having an impact on their lives.  They seem to think it does.  Did you read the comments on the link provided above?  I'm pretty sure they are blamming Sacramento for creating an anti-business environment.

----------


## Spartan

I didn't say people don't care about politics. It's just my jaded perspective that it really doesn't affect people for the most part. People always like to pretend like their personally invested in EVERYTHING to give them leverage to talk about..if you don't believe, go to an OKC City Council meeting. "Good morning Mayor, Council, my name is Joe Blow, blah blah blah, I own this city basically, and I want to talk about blah blah blah.."

----------


## HOT ROD

> I left California for good in 1990 (at the age of 20) because I could see the train wreck coming.  Smartest thing I ever did.  It was interesting to read the comments from the California perspective.  *There was only 1 negative comment about Oklahoma* and the rest seemed to be from people that now understand the problems California is facing.  The only problem is they woke-up too late to do anything about it.  The demise of California was decades in the making and the coming collapse has a lot of momentum behind it.


I was actually surprised by that - and was expecting some colloquial references towards OKC - but even the 1 negative comment about OK wasn't really even negative. Could it be that OKC's image is finally changing?

I did notice that it seems as though S. Californian's are quite paranoid and point a lot of fingers - regardless if they are true/correct. Many of those posters seem more right wing fanatical than most I've seen from the supposedly right wing fanatic state that Oklahoma is often touted to be.

weird

----------


## PennyQuilts

> I didn't say people don't care about politics. It's just my jaded perspective that it really doesn't affect people for the most part. People always like to pretend like their personally invested in EVERYTHING to give them leverage to talk about..if you don't believe, go to an OKC City Council meeting. "Good morning Mayor, Council, my name is Joe Blow, blah blah blah, I own this city basically, and I want to talk about blah blah blah.."


I think your're right, Spartan, that most people like to bitch and moan and threaten to leave a place over politics but most don't really do more than that.  I DO think that the ones who are actually affected in the pocketbook or some other substantial way, are likely to pull up stakes and leave.  I honestly believe that is one of the reasons many people who aren't in business think all the gloom and doom over raising taxes on the wealthy is just talk.  They don't think anything will come of it because it doesn't directly affect them.

----------


## Kerry

> I did notice that it seems as though S. Californian's are quite paranoid and point a lot of fingers - regardless if they are true/correct. Many of those posters seem more right wing fanatical than most I've seen from the supposedly right wing fanatic state that Oklahoma is often touted to be.


I think that is an indication of how far left the California State Legislature has moved.

----------


## Kerry

The Califonria situation is worse than I thought - and that is asaying a lot because I thought it was pretty bad for them.  I found a guy that tracks companies leaving California and why.

Here is his most recent story.

http://thebusinessrelocationcoach.bl...in-1st_15.html




> Companies of all types are reducing their California footprint. The list includes well-known California-based firms like Google, Hilton, Genentech, Yelp, Apple, Facebook, and DIRECTTV.


Reading through the list, one of the very funny thing I noticed is the number of California 'green' companies that are using Obama stimulus dollars to fund their moves out of California.  It seems just leaving California in now considered 'green'.

----------


## semisimple

Thanks for sharing that, Kerry.  I count at least seven companies moving or expanding here in Austin--I feel for those having to relocate from Santa Monica.  

But I can't get past this staggering factoid: "...California losing more than one million jobs in recent years."  What a shame to California.

----------


## jbrown84

I don't see it mentioned in local media, but all the comments on California based articles indicate that unions contributed to the move and that it will be non-union in OKC.  If so, this is a major positive outcome of *Right to Work*.

----------


## bluedogok

> I think that is an indication of how far left the California State Legislature has moved.


It has much to do with who is buying their votes...

City Journal - The Golden State’s War on Itself

----------


## Spartan

> I think your're right, Spartan, that most people like to bitch and moan and threaten to leave a place over politics but most don't really do more than that.  I DO think that the ones who are actually affected in the pocketbook or some other substantial way, are likely to pull up stakes and leave.  I honestly believe that is one of the reasons many people who aren't in business think all the gloom and doom over raising taxes on the wealthy is just talk.  They don't think anything will come of it because it doesn't directly affect them.


If someone is going to move away from Oklahoma because they are being tax fleeced, then I'd hate to see where they move.. Mexico? Sudan? Vietnam? Mongolia?

----------


## Kerry

> If someone is going to move away from Oklahoma because they are being tax fleeced, then I'd hate to see where they move.. Mexico? Sudan? Vietnam? Mongolia?


How about Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, Wyoming, New Hampshire and Tennessee.  No state income tax.

or 

Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon.  No state sales tax.

or

Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming.  No corporate taxes.

or this little nugget

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/income...nostatetax.htm




> Still, it is worth noting that during 2006 and 2007, the seven states with no income tax whatsoever, Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming, led the nation in net population growth.

----------


## Kerry

> It has much to do with who is buying their votes...
> 
> City Journal - The Golden State’s War on Itself


Holy cow - that was something I could have written.  He made some great recommendation at the end but the State of California will never enact ANY of them; not in a million years.  He made some good points about California thinking "green jobs" were going to save them then we have story I linked to where "green companies" are using their "green job" tax credits to fund their moves out of California

----------


## soonerguru

Politics aside, this is very encouraging news for OKC and our future. Hopefully this is a trend. It's my understanding that there are a number of good jobs available right now in the defense sector in OKC, so much so that we're recruiting people around the country to fill them. Needing to fill available jobs is a great problem for a city to have, especially in our current economic environment.

----------


## SkyWestOKC

I can tell you for a fact that Tinker is hiring A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) Mechanics like crazy right now. The A&P school I am at right now is not able to produce enough mechanics to fill the demand. So Tinker is doing heavy recruiting in state (Tulsa especially) and a lot of out of state recruiting, too. This Boeing news only adds to the hiring momentum of Tinker AFB and the MRO.

----------


## betts

_I found this amid an article in the DOK about Californians moving to Oklahoma:_

Boeing employees who are considering relocations — after the company's August announcement that it would shift 550 jobs from Long Beach to Tinker Air Force Base — have been pleased with their scouting visits, said Roy Williams, president of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber. “They've gone back and told their co-workers to check us out, it wasn't what they thought, and then it becomes viral,” he said. 

*About 85 percent, compared with a projected 10 percent, are expected to accept relocation offers, Williams said.*


Read more: http://newsok.com/migration-stats-in...#ixzz1Ce2Pw2vx

----------


## earlywinegareth

It's the low cost of living that blows their socks off...when they see how much house they can buy, then they look around and see decent neighborhoods, schools, higher ed, the Thunder...it all adds up to a very good quality of life not found in many places.

----------


## poe

I enjoyed the article this morning. I really think the attitude towards Oklahoma City is changing nationally. I'm also somewhat surprised a same-sex couple (assuming) was included in the article - a highlight of more progressive thinking and acceptance of today's types of families. Not that OKC is 100% gay-friendly; just nice to see, IMO.

----------


## soonerguru

Outside of Sally Kern's district, Oklahoma City has become very gay friendly. Fortunately, Mayor Cornett has not carried on Mayor Humphreys' homophobia.

----------


## Jethrol

> _I found this amid an article in the DOK about Californians moving to Oklahoma:_
> 
> Boeing employees who are considering relocations — after the company's August announcement that it would shift 550 jobs from Long Beach to Tinker Air Force Base — have been pleased with their scouting visits, said Roy Williams, president of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber. “They've gone back and told their co-workers to check us out, it wasn't what they thought, and then it becomes viral,” he said. 
> 
> *About 85 percent, compared with a projected 10 percent, are expected to accept relocation offers, Williams said.*
> 
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/migration-stats-in...#ixzz1Ce2Pw2vx


Wow...thanks for that!  Seriously...that was a great article!

----------


## Pete

It's good to see so many of the Boeing people are expected to make the move.

The low cost of living in OKC is certainly a factor but I bet a lot of these people would be compromising their retirement benefits if they just opted out.  Also, the job market in Southern California currently -- especially in aerospace -- is terrible right now.

----------


## jbrown84

> I'm also somewhat surprised a same-sex couple (assuming) was included in the article - a highlight of more progressive thinking and acceptance of today's types of families. Not that OKC is 100% gay-friendly; just nice to see, IMO.


Yeah I think it was implied in his comment about NE Arkansas not being a place for him. 

Great article.  So many are pleasantly surprised at OKC.

----------


## bombermwc

I so totally called this...look back to page 2 my friends.....
http://newsok.com/boeing-starts-new-...dline_business

----------


## okcpulse

> How about Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, Wyoming, New Hampshire and Tennessee.  No state income tax.
> 
> or 
> 
> Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon.  No state sales tax.
> 
> or
> 
> Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming.  No corporate taxes.
> ...


Don't get me started about the all-hailed no state income tax feature that Texans and non-Texans tout.  Doesn't matter so much when you get spanked in Texas' other tax categories.  Besides, the local rep in my district in Conroe mailed us a survey of ways to raise tax revenue in Texas thanks to the $21 billion deficit.  One of the ideas... create a state income tax.

----------


## earlywinegareth

I'll say it again, this is really good news that the chamber of commerce should be making a very big deal about - that a major corporation is moving ops to OKC for all the reasons that make sense to a company's bottom line.

----------


## Kerry

It sounds like Texas has a spending problem.

----------


## G.Walker

Just read article on the new Boeing $40M, 320,000sqft ,6 story "campus" office building. City officials should have lured this development downtown. They could have made 15-20 stories out of 320,000 sqft, making a nice high rise addition to downtown, what were they thinking, not trying to do this?

----------


## mcca7596

I guess it just made more sense for them to be closer to Tinker; another new tower would obviously have been nice though. Who knows, the Chamber could have pitched it to them...?

----------


## Kerry

Long Beach is further from Tinker than downtown OKC is.

----------


## SkyWestOKC

Why would Boeing locate to downtown? Seriously. If Tinker was at the Downtown Airpark location, sure. But it's not. Aerospace engineering requires synergy. Boeing won't be making all of these parts or designs. An airplane is not built by one manufacturer. You have dozens upon dozens of parts suppliers, all working on the same project. Some specialize in just one part, others specialize in computer systems. Locating in downtown away from Tinker, would put Boeing at a huge efficiency disadvantage. Having engineers and suppliers constantly driving back and forth between the base to brainstorm, discuss, and design what they are doing is stupid. Tinker is the best place for any aviation engineering office to be located in the metro, or even region. It's stupid to purposely locate away from that. Just like energy companies try to locate near each other because of synergy, so do aviation support and engineering companies. It's in the best interest of Boeing, Tinker AFB, Oklahoma City, and the State to have Boeing expand at Tinker, not downtown OKC. Having Boeing expand at Tinker will attract other suppliers who work with them to locate nearby, only furthering the development of that area with high-paying engineering jobs.

----------


## Snowman

If you go back just a few years we were fighting to keep Tinker off the Base Realignment & Closure lists, if any have worked in government longer than five years they will remember that. This project being moved here is another tangible reason to keep the base operating should another round be initiated, they also want the area to continue to be known for supporting the military more than average communities. Throwing road block in now seems like an unusual choice. Building downtown either splits their workforce or they have to build for twice as many people (replacing a fairly new building) and gaining a twenty mile round trip. What they gain seems mostly intangibles where it would have induce some real operational issues if part of the reason they are moving them here is to be near the work. Incentives only go so far, they are building on land they already own in a manor the city found acceptable fairly recently as a building of similar size is right next to the construction site. They have to have real reasons to move downtown; less area to build on, a more costly building, a longer build time, smaller floors, more elevator rides, more building design constraints, less option for expansion later, a twenty minute round trip, have your workforces work in completely different locations. What incentives are worth it, and given the budget issues if we could get buy without incentives why not.

----------


## Kerry

SkyWestOKC - my point was that these employees were/are in Long Beach and they seemed to be able to do their jobs just fine. What is the nearest Boeing maintenance facility to Long Beach? Why could they do their job in Long Beach but they can't do it in downtown OKC?

_On edit: Answered my own questions._
_I did a quick search and it appears they were doing this work at the Long Beach Airport. In that case it would make sense that the engineers retain their proximity to the actual maintenance after they move to OKC. With that in mind, downtown is not an option._

----------


## HOT ROD

i think it could have been a 10 storey tower to 'start' a new suburban CBD for Midwest City. ....

We need our suburbs to start investing in their downtowns, so they will serve as the critical mass point for metropolitan amenities, such as libraries, govt, and TRANSIT (Express/Commuter bus and rail to downtown OKC, regional hub for their city/part of the metro). ...

It would be nice to have some of the suburbs have a few highrises, not all need to be in OKC - just the tallest/largest. ...

----------


## mcca7596

I like you're idea HOT ROD.

----------


## Snowman

> i think it could have been a 10 storey tower to 'start' a new suburban CBD for Midwest City. ....
> 
> We need our suburbs to start investing in their downtowns, so they will serve as the critical mass point for metropolitan amenities, such as libraries, govt, and TRANSIT (Express/Commuter bus and rail to downtown OKC, regional hub for their city/part of the metro). ...
> 
> It would be nice to have some of the suburbs have a few highrises, not all need to be in OKC - just the tallest/largest. ...


The thing about the suburbs of OKC and areas like this are land is cheap, and you can build more space if you make it shorter and wider. Plus many people often prefer to walk horizontally on one level than take more stares and elevator rides. Sure Devon and tall towers look muck cooler but as long as it is built well with jobs that are secure it is a big win. Companies do not blow money to make a skyline look good and if they did then that is dangerous for where they build because it can cause a collapse in the value of the buildings around it when they go under. What suburb are you proposing does not have a library? They all have government too. The historic downtown of the suburb I am in not event the best place for a hub of the current city as what it was then vs now is starkly different, plus their is much better spaces available that could be used for a hub near the current business zone or the major traffic areas for residential travel.

----------


## Larry OKC

> If you go back just a few years we were fighting to keep Tinker off the Base Realignment & Closure lists, if any have worked in government longer than five years they will remember that. This project being moved here is another tangible reason to keep the base operating should another round be initiated, they also want the area to continue to be known for supporting the military more than average communities. ...


There was an article (think it came out during the last Tinker Bond election) that showed the previous rounds and "Save Tinker" was pretty much a sham. Tinker was never in danger of being seriously considered for shut down. This came either from the former commander of Tinker or our congressional delegation. Can't recall exactly who it was but definitely someone who would have been "in the know".

To clarify, I was one of those that voted for every "Save Tinker" vote that was put forth, until that info came out.

----------


## G.Walker

I remember a recent article Steve wrote about potential employers interested in coming to Oklahoma City, the information the Okc chamber presented one aviation company wanting to locate it's 600 employees downtown? Yes, it makes more sense to locate near Tinker, but locating downtown would have worked. Commute time from Tinker to downtown via freeway is 15min. An additional 550 employees downtown, would help lure more economic development, provide more traffic to downtown business, and help promote C2S. A good location for the a Boeing high rise could have been the old Ford site, Fred Hall could have sold land to Boeing at a crack head price. The new Boeing high rise at the old Ford site, would have been in proximity of new convention center and hotel, attracting aviation/aerospace conventions, workshops, and seminars.

----------


## SkyWestOKC

I'm not sure you understand how important it is for these jobs to have close access to Tinker.... 

Also "an aviation company" could be anything. It doesn't necessarily mean a defense contractor (which does need close access to the base, and other contractors/subcontractors), it could be Cessna, Cirrus Design, Piper, a small regional airline HQ or operations command center, etc. It could be anything.

Also, this article doesn't state whether or not that company is interested downtown. http://newsok.com/economic-developme...rticle/3535769

And, last but not least, aviation companies rarely locate to downtown cores. Save for just a handful of HQ's (Boeing main HQ, United main HQ.....that's about all I can think of, Continental used to be, but they moved in with United at Chicago). Other than that, airlines locate near airports, as that benefits them the best). Have you seen American's HQ in Dallas, guess what, it's right next to the airport and is not some tall tower, but a meek multi-story building.

Not everything is appropriate for downtown, aviation companies just don't do that.

----------


## earlywinegareth

I work at Tinker.  What you have is several defense contractors with offices surrounding the base.  Boeing chose to build its first building next to Northrup Grumman's just outside the Air Depot gate.  Right around the corner is L-3, another major base contractor.  Then you have another dozen or so smaller contractors scattered around who do specialized technical work for the base.  It is important to locate near the base for easy access of contractors to the base and base workers to the contractor location.  Boeing, for instance, hosts probably 50 conferences per year at its current off-base building that are attended by base managers.  I've been there half a dozen times this past year.  Their current bldg seems to be 1/3 conference space, so they planned it this way.  Northrup-Grumman is prime contractor for the B-2 Bomber whose program management offices are a short distance inside the Air Depot gate.  They also have numerous meetings with base personnel.

In sum, their sole customer is the US Air Force and to maintain high customer relations, they need to operate in close proximity.

----------


## plmccordj

I agree with earlywinegareth.  I also work in one of the program offices at Tinker and go to the Boeing facility here and San Antonio on a regular basis.  There are program management reviews (PMR) at Boeing all the time.  There are times that we have to go over there to drop off some documentation and then get back to work at Tinker. Boeing employees come to our office frequently as well.  Proximity is important because you can eat up a lot of time with the base 25 MPH speed limit anyway ;-)

----------


## BG918

Can you imagine if Tinker had closed back in the 90's?  It was on the BRAC list in 1989 and again in 1995.

----------


## OKCRT

Easy solution. High speed rail from MWC/Tinker to downtown. It doesn't have to be supersonic speeds but it should be a commute of 10 minutes max. Like the old saying goes. "Build it and they will come".

----------


## SkyWestOKC

Or it'd be easier and more cost-effective to have them all at one location. Why doesn't anyone want there to be a huge aviation industry focused inside the metro. Why does everyone want them scattered out?

----------


## HOT ROD

> The thing about the suburbs of OKC and areas like this are land is cheap, and you can build more space if you make it shorter and wider. Plus many people often prefer to walk horizontally on one level than take more stares and elevator rides. Sure Devon and tall towers look muck cooler but as long as it is built well with jobs that are secure it is a big win. Companies do not blow money to make a skyline look good and if they did then that is dangerous for where they build because it can cause a collapse in the value of the buildings around it when they go under. What suburb are you proposing does not have a library? They all have government too. The historic downtown of the suburb I am in not event the best place for a hub of the current city as what it was then vs now is starkly different, plus their is much better spaces available that could be used for a hub near the current business zone or the major traffic areas for residential travel.


you missed the point, I never said that suburbs of OKC need tall towers - if you read again, I said they need midrises to start new CBD's (instead of office parks) outside of downtown, while the tallest and most exclusive towers would remain in downtown. Dont think this happens in suburbs? See - Bellevue, WA. Clayton, MO. Denver Tech Center (which is a suburb of name Greenwood Village, IIRC). 

OKC has the NW Business CBD and I want it to also grow, but I'd like to see some of the suburbs get into CBD development and put some mid-high rise density in their existing or new downtowns. The Boeing development, at 320K sq ft could have made a very nice 10-15 storey tower starting the new MWC CBD, imo. Still close to TIK but creating a new business center (instead of a new office park).

Also, I never said suburbs didn't already have libraries or community centers, I said the 'new' downtowns in suburbs would have NEW libraries/govt buildings and centers to make it a node for the region the suburb sits in as well as transit. Again, this is not a foreign idea if you travel to other cities, peer and larger (and in some cases, smaller).

I think we all agree that downtown obviously needs to be #1 and NW will always probably be #2, but I don't see any reason why Norman, Edmond, Yukon, and MWC couldn't focus on their downtowns (or actually build one in MWC's case) to be urban suburban alternatives with amenities I mentioned.

----------


## Spartan

I don't know if you realize this, but there's really not that much money in OKC's suburbs compared to some of these other places such as: Sugar Land TX, The Woodlands TX, Plano TX, Irving TX, Clayton MO, Bellevue WA, and on and on...

Edmond is not the kind of suburb that builds grandiose things like The Woodlands. Memorial Rd keeps coming close but development deals keep falling through up there, and at the end of the day, strip mall crap keeps getting built instead.

I don't mean that rich people don't live in OKC. I think I made a similarly unrelated comment about old money in OKC and some people on this board misconstrued what I said in that way. So just to clarify, I mean that these OKC suburbs mostly do not have an economy of their own that powers demand for these kinds of high-intensity development projects. Furthermore, it is such a cultural norm in OKC for a company to be based in a ranch-style office park that building the kinds of things you see in The Woodlands or Tyson's Corner is not going to happen for a long time, maybe forever.

Downtown OKC and the inner city is the only shot OKC has at looking like a real city with regards to development. 

What this has to do with Boeing--absolutely nothing.

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## plmccordj

Tinker has never been a serious candidate for closing.  The only reason they were on the list AT ALL was so that local politicians could use the issue at election time.  They wanted to be on the record saying they fought for Tinker.  This whole "save Tinker" mantra that we have been hearing for the last 20 years has been a complete fraud.  I work at Tinker and never for a moment felt that it was in true danger of being closed. This guy named Burpee use to be in charge at Tinker and once he was out, he had political aspirations.  It seemed like every six months he was at the fore front crying that Tinker was on the chopping block.  Pure fabrication at best.

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## HOT ROD

Bellevue didn't either, until recently.

In fact, the wealth is really in Redmond (full of office parks, which is a suburb of Bellevue and the rich folks (Gates/Ballmer etc live in Medina, another Bellevue suburb). Bellevue NOW serves as the anchor city of the Seattle/Puget Sound Eastside, and it had very little to do with the wealth/companies but moreso to do with great urban planning and desire of the City of Bellevue to use it's geographic position. ....

This is what I recommend for some of OKC's suburbs, invest in (or build) their downtown instead of just putting up more office parks. I know for a fact that both Bellevue, Tysons, Greenwood Village, and Clayton started life similar to Edmond (and to some extent, Norman/MWC) as bedroom communities - but look at them now. No reason why Edmond can't benchmark those REGIONAL suburban CBD's. 

(I highlighted for you, why those suburbs developed their own CBD's, and it has nothing to do with the wealth of those cities. ...)

It has to do with Boeing, because I had suggested that 320K sq feet would have made a nice little tower (ala Mid-America tower) for what could have been MWC's new CBD if that suburb had the planning foresight to zone/approve it. Instead of the flat, six storey parks.

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## bombermwc

MWC isn't really a high-rise area....and there's no CBD there. The closest you get is the 8 floor hospital (which sucks) and a medical office tower (4 floors)...that's "height" in MWC. Granted, 8 is higher than most other burbs, but it's a hospital so it doesn't really count that much. Plus, the hospital has to go up because they can't afford to buy out the land around to go out.

But beyond that, it should be no surprise to anyone around Tinker to see a company consolidate their office space. Boeing used to be spread all over creation in little offices here and there on/off base. This way the employees are able to work TOGETHER more efficiently and now will be able to that much better with the new employees. There are still plenty of companies with offices around MWC in the onsie twosie plan...Pratt & Whitney, Lockheed Martin, Northup Grumman, etc the list goes on and on. But we're not talking offices of 100 people folks....most of the off-base offices are small...like the couple dozen or so people range. This isn't Wichita where you've got thousands of engineers and whatnot around town. 

OKC should thank it's lucky stars Boeing decided to come here. The MROTC as well as the revamped GM plant are huge assets for Tinker and it's contractors. One thing I'm surprised is that the MROTC hasn't expanded beyond the first 3 hangers...it's supposed to be something like a dozen or more. But when GM came into the picture, you saw land freed up and at least one new hanger is being built ON base....which had been too full to do anything with. 

And there's also still lots of land in the area to build more contract offices like Boeing's. ESPECIALLY south of the base (NOT MWC). If you also weren't aware, the 59th and Air Depot gate (which is near this facility) is also home to the new Medical Center on Tinker. It's not the "butt-end" of the base these days.

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## Kerry

Before you guys go to far down the road of where Boeing should or should not locate and its promity to runways, you need to fire up Google Earth, hover over Long Beach/Huntington Beach California, and do a serach on Boeing. They are located in everything from airport hangers to mid-rise gleaming office towers nowhere near an airport.

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## Spartan

> Tinker has never been a serious candidate for closing.  The only reason they were on the list AT ALL was so that local politicians could use the issue at election time.  They wanted to be on the record saying they fought for Tinker.  This whole "save Tinker" mantra that we have been hearing for the last 20 years has been a complete fraud.  I work at Tinker and never for a moment felt that it was in true danger of being closed. This guy named Burpee use to be in charge at Tinker and once he was out, he had political aspirations.  It seemed like every six months he was at the fore front crying that Tinker was on the chopping block.  Pure fabrication at best.


I think Dick Burpee was always arguing that Tinker would either grow or die. That seems to be a popular mantra in many different economic engines around OKC. Grow or die.

So Burpee made sure Tinker had support to grow.

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## SkyWestOKC

> Before you guys go to far down the road of where Boeing should or should not locate and its promity to runways, you need to fire up Google Earth, hover over Long Beach/Huntington Beach California, and do a serach on Boeing. They are located in everything from airport hangers to mid-rise gleaming office towers nowhere near an airport.


It has nothing to do with direct airfield access. It has to do with being close to the customer, and being close to your contractors and subcontractors. If all of the Tinker contractors and subcontractors that Boeing does joint-development with were located downtown, it'd be stupid to locate anywhere but downtown. But since Tinker is the hub where all of these other contractors locate, it makes sense to locate nearby. 

A lot of you are taking a very narrow approach to looking at this. Can't be happy that 500 high paying, well respected jobs are moving into town. Oh no, they might as well not even come here since they are building a building that isn't very tall or in the downtown core. 

A win is a win. They aren't tearing anything important down, they are replacing grass with a 6 story building. They are moving 500 high paying jobs into the city. They might have even more moves planned for OKC in the future, as hinted in their press release. I'm sure Boeing looked at it, and decided that staying close to the people they do business with everyday makes the most financial sense.

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## OSUFan

> Before you guys go to far down the road of where Boeing should or should not locate and its promity to runways, you need to fire up Google Earth, hover over Long Beach/Huntington Beach California, and do a serach on Boeing. They are located in everything from airport hangers to mid-rise gleaming office towers nowhere near an airport.


How is that set up working for Long Beach?

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## Kerry

> It has nothing to do with direct airfield access. It has to do with being close to the customer, and being close to your contractors and subcontractors.


Then this brings me back to my orginal comment - they were doing this work in Long Beach, California.  That is 1,348 miles from their customer.  Why could they do this job 1,300 miles away for the last (how many years) but they can't do it 8 miles away.  What is magical about that last 8 miles?

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## Kerry

> How is that set up working for Long Beach?


Have you seen the size of the Boeing Long Beach/Huntington Beach operations?  I would say it has worked out well for them.  Of course, California is taxing a lot of companies out of the state.

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## SkyWestOKC

> Then this brings me back to my orginal comment - they were doing this work in Long Beach, California.  That is 1,348 miles from their customer.  Why could they do this job 1,300 miles away for the last (how many years) but they can't do it 8 miles away.  What is magical about that last 8 miles?


Because the program they are moving is not all Boeing does. Boeing currently does have offices near Tinker that are near their suppliers, contractors, subcontractors, and the customer. Moving this to downtown away from the current Boeing facility, again - stupidity. Also, they [Boeing] will most likely attract their suppliers for this specific project from Long Beach to open, or expand current offices in OKC -- which happens to also be near the customer, Tinker AFB and indirectly Boeing.

So, you have a ton of relevant companies and suppliers you use in a cluster, including your own current offices. But, let's move this one operation downtown for the heck of it. Yes that makes perfect sense Kerry.

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## Kerry

Just to calirrify - I am not saying they should move downtown. All I am saying is that downtown OKC is closer to the customer than Long Beach is. In Huntington Beach, Boeing is in several high-rise towers that are nowhere near their 'customers'. If being close to the customer is a new 'trend' with Boeing then so be it - but that hasn't always been the case.  Maybe the model changed when Boeing moved from Seattle to Chicago to be closer to their primary customers.

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## HOT ROD

I also want to be clear, since some people ran away with what I had said.

1) I NEVER said Boeing should build a tower downtown. I said, they could have built a small tower to start a new CBD for Midwest City.

2) I NEVER said MWC has a downtown, I said, Boeing could have built a small tower (with 320 sq feet) that if planned right - could have started a CBD for Midwest City

3) I NEVER said I wasn't happy for OKC that Boeing is locating those jobs. I said, a building that is 320,000 sq feet (think Mid-America/Devon current tower) Boeing could have built a nice mid-rise tower that if planned right could have started a new CBD for Midwest City.

One final time; since Boeing needs a 320,000 sq ft building and wants to be close to its customer(s) at Tinker, then with a little bit of planning foresight - MWC could have got them to build a small tower that could have started a new CBD for Midwest City. ... 

I also said that suburbs in OKC should start to build in their CBDs to create synergy (for a host of things 'metropolitan') instead of building suburban campus style office parks. This Boeing relocation would have been the perfect opportunity for Midwest City.

Just so we're clear. .....

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## Kerry

Thanks HotRod. Yes it does appear MWC missed an opportunity here, not just with this new building but the original Boeing buiding as well (plus some of the other office buildings near Tinker).  Where would this 'downtown' have been built?

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## bombermwc

MWC didn't "miss an opporunity" at all folks. It was never theirs to have. Boeing was in MWC for decades in the Tinker Business Park on 29th and Sooner....much like so many of the other contract companies. It's single story boring plain office space in multiple buildings (and infact the masterplan still isn't complete because the last building has yet to be built...and probably never will). The damned flight line arguement was such a pain for years in getting anything happening there, and on the Del City side of Sooner.

Boeing consolidated offices into their current building....and there wasn't anywhere in MWC with that proximity to the base, that had land to build. Go check out a google map and look at MWC from 29th to 15....100% full until you get out east of Douglas. Right now Boeing is across the street from Tinker, in an area that has a TON of room to grow. That's also 2 miles south of MWC. So like I said, it was never MWC's in the first place. There simply isn't room (in a non-flight-line) area in MWC for something like these projects to go. They had to go to OKC for that. There's no point in building ON Douglas anyway since Tinker has always had it's eye on taking that over and closing access between 240 and 40. So why block yourself in for 20 years from now? They can build where they are now and as the area attracts other businesses like Boeing, Tinker will have a more "secure" back door as well.

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## Kerry

I think the point HotRod was trying to make is this:  Boeing has built (or will soon have) over 500,000 sq feet of office space.  Plus there is other office space taken up by contractors, sub-contractors, as well as other defense companies.  Instead of spreading all of this office space over 3 or 4 square miles around Tinker, they could have created a new suburban business district with mid rise buildings that also included housing and entertainment options.  It could have been an aviation dominated business district which could then have attracted other non-defense aviation companies to the state.  Where it was built is irrelevant to the discussion.

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## HOT ROD

thanks Kerry, as usual - you get it.

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## Spartan

This is the problem: You're suggesting we have foresight and lasting value with our development. Egads!

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## Kerry

> thanks Kerry, as usual - you get it.


Well, it took me a while but once I understood what you were saying I was on-board.

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## bombermwc

But that assumption presupposes that MWC did (or didn't) something that caused Boeing to not look in MWC. I would argue that they couldn't have done anything to keep Boeing in the city limits of MWC. Unless Boeing was willing to pay out their rear to tear out a bunch of land and businesses somewhere on 29th (say west of Sam's). What I mean there, is that to build a building like that in MWC at the same proximity would have cost Boeing at least double what it did cost. They wouldn't have been able to build that building near the old offices because of the flight line....restictions at Sooner for density and height (don't ask me why the on-base structures don't have to follow those rules). The further away from Tinker you go in MWC, the cheaper the land....but then you're further away from Tinker. The spot they chose really was the best place for Boeing...proximity being across the street, cheaper land, room to grow, access to a highway, etc. 

So while I understand what you are saying, I don't agree. I would argue that MWC was out of the equation for many many reasons.

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## Kerry

Then take MWC out of the equation. They (OKC, Gardner-Tanenbaum and Boeing) could have built an aviation based town center on the same site they are building on right now. Most town center developers would beg to have someone wanting to lease 500,000 sq feet of office space and Tanenbaum has that dumped into his lap and does nothing with it other than building a 6 story building surrounded by acres of surface parking. A huge opportunity was missed by a lot of people.

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## dismayed

I don't know, I think the answer is pretty obvious.  Have you seen that shiny gray, black, and blue building... off by itself, surrounded by parking lot, and then fencing, and then nothing... the message it sends is quite clear... keep out.  They aren't some company that makes toaster ovens, they are a defense contractor.  They don't want you or some commercial town center anywhere near them.

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## Kerry

> I don't know, I think the answer is pretty obvious. Have you seen that shiny gray, black, and blue building... off by itself, surrounded by parking lot, and then fencing, and then nothing... the message it sends is quite clear... keep out. They aren't some company that makes toaster ovens, they are a defense contractor. They don't want you or some commercial town center anywhere near them.


They just moved out of a mid-rise district in Long Beach.

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## bombermwc

Kerry - don't confuse where the long beach office was with what their presense here in OKC has always been. The old offices on 29th and sooner were gated off as well. Most suites don't have signs on them to tell you who is there. It's not an "inviting" place. It's more of a "if you don't belong here, then go away". If I remember right, you don't live in OKC though. So if you haven't been here, I can see how it isn't clear. They are operating locally just as all of the contract companies have. Heck, Chromalloy is another local contractor in MWC acorss from Century (the largest martial arts supplier in the U.S.). That's about the extent of an "industrial" area in MWC and that's next to a soccer complex and the largest park in MWC. Been that way for 40 years. My point is, local folks are indifferent on this because it's exactlly what made sense to us.

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## Kerry

I give up then - since it has always been done that way then I guess there is no use trying something different.

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## WilliamTell

Lock this darn thread. Boeing is moving jobs here, they have a brand new building constructed during the last few years, they obviously built alot a extra space into it to accommodate growth. 

LET IT GO, IF THEY WANTED TO MOVE DOWNTOWN THEY WOULD HAVE.

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## soonerguru

> Lock this darn thread. Boeing is moving jobs here, they have a brand new building constructed during the last few years, they obviously built alot a extra space into it to accommodate growth. 
> 
> LET IT GO, IF THEY WANTED TO MOVE DOWNTOWN THEY WOULD HAVE.


Feeling cranky?

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## WilliamTell

> Feeling cranky?


No, the pertinent points were already made in this thread a long time ago and you guys have been beating a dead horse for pages now. Let it go and find a better hobby.

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## rcjunkie

> No, the pertinent points were already made in this thread a long time ago and you guys have been beating a dead horse for pages now. Let it go and find a better hobby.


Apparently your still interested in what's being said or you wouldn't continue to look at/read the postings on this thread.

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## earlywinegareth

Cheap, available land + quick, easy access to your customer = no brainer

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## bombermwc

And that's my point why they built where they did....

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## mcca7596

http://newsok.com/boeing-to-move-eng...rticle/3637499

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## Bellaboo

High paying engineering jobs moving to OKC -  reckon some more of that incentive fund was tapped  ?

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## SoonerDave

> High paying engineering jobs moving to OKC -  reckon some more of that incentive fund was tapped  ?


Nope. This was a "closing Wichita" issue, not an "enhance OKC" issue.

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## Bellaboo

> Nope. This was a "closing Wichita" issue, not an "enhance OKC" issue.


Are you sure ? They had a "closing Long Beach" issue, which enhanced OKC using the incentive funds  ........

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## Just the facts

> High paying engineering jobs moving to OKC -  reckon some more of that incentive fund was tapped  ?


Are these jobs coming to OKC proper?  If not then the OKC fund that Continental Resources used are not available to Boeing.

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## Bellaboo

> Are these jobs coming to OKC proper?  If not then the OKC fund that Continental Resources used are not available to Boeing.


I believe i've read in past news that this same fund was tapped for Boeing. The Boeing facility is just West of Tinker, which is OKC.

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## BoulderSooner

yes the boeing jobs are coming to OKC ...  and the some of the GOLT bonds went to Boeing

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## G.Walker

Nice...

http://newsok.com/update-boeing-will...rticle/3637499

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## adaniel

Great news fo us, but sucks for Wichita.

Its great to hear OKC consistently getting good jobs . Once upon a time, we could only get 1-800 telemarketing places.

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## Midtowner

Kudos to the OKC Chamber for helping to get this done.

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## Pete

Not only are we getting 800 jobs, but it's the higher-paid positions.  Hate that this comes at the expense of another city, though.




> The plant employs 2,160 employees, and the company intends to move remaining aircraft maintenance, modification and support work at Wichita to its operation in San Antonio, while *remaining engineering work will be moved to Oklahoma City*.
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/boeing-will-move-a...#ixzz1iWbQVGy2

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## Midtowner

> Not only are we getting 800 jobs, but it's the higher-paid positions.  Hate that this comes at the expense of another city, though.


At least they're not going overseas.

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## G.Walker

I guess a good question now is will they build new office space to accommodate 800 jobs? I think they would almost have to, the new office they are building is for the other new 550 jobs added.

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## OklahomaNick

> Kudos to the OKC Chamber for helping to get this done.


: )

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## dmoor82

Wow,read some of the hundreds of comments on this story from the Wichita Eagle!http://www.kansas.com/2012/01/04/216...ita-plant.html

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## Superhyper

Hopefully they'll give the option to transfer to some of the Wichita employees. That's at least not too far of a move to make for work.

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## adaniel

They will give some the option to relocate here. Also, I believe they are moving some engineering jobs here from Seattle, even though that area will see a slight net gain in Boeing employment as well. 

As for the comments on the news site, I would expect a similar reaction here if Devon just up and moved to Houston, or something similar. Wichita is basically a one-horse factory town, with the "horse" being planes, so this is pretty devastating to them. 

Its great for us, but I feel a bit dirty benefitting from someone else's pain.

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## king183

I referenced this back in the Retail thread, but this is just one of the many big things the OKC Chamber has been working on.  Mary Fallin and Dave Lopez have been working non-stop on this, too. All of them have done a great job.

Even better:  get ready, because this may just be the first domino to fall in our favor. From what I'm hearing, there's a strong chance something even bigger may be announced later this year.

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## Pete

Yeah, it stinks for Wichita.

They are losing almost 3x the number of jobs we are gaining, and they are half our size.

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## WilliamTell

I'm thankful for the jobs being added here, but I know it news like this devastates communities and families that have given their lives to Boeing. But like others are saying, better here than china or mexico like so many other manufactures are doing.

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## Urbanized

I grew up in Wichita, and didn't move to OKC 'til college. I'm fairly certain I was an adult before I understood that Boeing wasn't HEADQUARTERED in Wichita. They had a higher profile than companies that actually WERE HQ'd there, like Cessna, Beechcraft and Learjet, probably because so many people worked there at its peak.

It's probably more (emotionally though maybe not not financially) painful for them than losing Devon would be for us, because the city's entire culture has largely revolved around Boeing for generations. Probably feels more like it would feel to lose Tinker, or Kerr McGee when it was its real self in the 70s or 80s, but even then I'm not sure. It's part of the identity of that town.

Great get for OKC, though, no question.

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## dmoor82

Anyone know what kind of economic impact this will have on OKC,roughly?Losing 2,100 jobs fo a metro the size of Wichita is Huge!I can only imagine what those that will be layed off will do for a living if not offered a job in OKC or SA,Seattle!

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## adaniel

> I grew up in Wichita, and didn't move to OKC 'til college. I'm fairly certain I was an adult before I understood that Boeing wasn't HEADQUARTERED in Wichita. They had a higher profile than companies that actually WERE HQ'd there, like Cessna, Beechcraft and Learjet, probably because so many people worked there at its peak.
> 
> It's probably more (emotionally though maybe not not financially) painful for them than losing Devon would be for us, because the city's entire culture has largely revolved around Boeing for generations. Probably feels more like it would feel to lose Tinker, or Kerr McGee when it was its real self in the 70s or 80s, but even then I'm not sure. It's part of the identity of that town.
> 
> Great get for OKC, though, no question.


The thing that stinks for Wichita is Boeing is leaving town against the backdrop of Hawker, Cessna, and others making pretty sizeable cutbacks over the past few years. Its like the soul of the city is being smothered. Its similar to the steel industry implosion in my dad's hometown of Pittsburgh in the 1970's. They are only now recovering. And I certainly don't have to mention how many times OKC has been on the losing side of stories like these.  

I will say I have been to Wichita on a few occasions. While its not a place I would want to live, like many other blue collar leaning places, the people were fantastic, warm, salt of the earth types. I'm sure they will recover eventually.

Plus Boeing is giving their employees a year and a half to sort out their finances, find new work, etc. Much better than most companies.

The economic impact of 800 high paying jobs now in OKC will be very large. As a whole, this area's household incomes are still a bit on the low side, so it will provide a pretty big jolt and trickle down-effect. It would be on the same level as 4,000 jobs relocating to DFW.

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## Urbanized

Yeah, that's what I was getting at; their nickname is "Air Capital of the the World," and they use that nickname often and with pride. Do we even HAVE a nickname? The "Air Capital" identity was multi-generational, and it was largely centered around Boeing. So Boeing suddenly now having ZERO presence there...amazing. The analogy to Pittsburgh and steel is a good one. Or Detroit and the auto industry, though thankfully Wichita hasn't fallen the same way, at least yet. 

In OKC, when the GM plant closed, it sadly affected tons of people, but GM or Western Electric or Dayton Tire were not so closely tied to the identity of the city, and I'm not sure OKC even has a close analog. I'll guarantee you their guts feel ripped out.

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## dmoor82

> I referenced this back in the Retail thread, but this is just one of the many big things the OKC Chamber has been working on. Mary Fallin and Dave Lopez have been working non-stop on this, too. All of them have done a great job.
> 
> Even better: get ready, because this may just be the first domino to fall in our favor. From what I'm hearing, there's a strong chance something even bigger may be announced later this year.


I would LOVE to know what your hearing about something larger later this year!

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## G.Walker

So now will we see a Boeing presence downtown?

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## catch22

> So now will we see a Boeing presence downtown?


Why? They are building a new office building out by Tinker as we speak.

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## dmoor82

^^Wasn't that just for the 550 Long Beach jobs?

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## catch22

Yeah but why would they then split half their workforce between the new jobs at the current and currently expanding offices, and a new downtown office?

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## G.Walker

> Why? They are building a new office building out by Tinker as we speak.


That building is for the other 550 jobs Boeing is relocating from Long Beach. I don't see them squeezing close to 1,500 employees in that building.

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## catch22

> That building is for the other 550 jobs Boeing is relocating from Long Beach. I don't them squeezing close to 1,500 employees in that building.


They'd probably start building a new building next to it?

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## dmoor82

maybe build an expansion building on that same site?seems like enough room to build more?

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## Pete

Earlier, Boeing said it would need 320,000 square feet for those first 550 jobs; that would equate to about 480,000 square feet for these 800 jobs -- and they said at LEAST 800.

480,000 square feet is almost exactly the size of Sandridge Center (Tower) and only slightly less than Oklahoma Tower.

If they locate these jobs near Tinker, there is going to have to be some major construction in that area.  And really, there isn't that much space downtown, either.

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## dmoor82

Just think what economic oppurtunity OKC lost to Indianapolis in the 90's!I cant wait till we see a HUGE relocation,not that this isnt big!

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## metro

If anyone actually read the article/ watched the video, they would have heard that they are building another 6 story building next to their existing one. makes sense.

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## Pete

Metro, that 6-story building is to help house the previously announced 550 jobs coming from Long Beach.

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## metro

Oh ok, but I thought they said ANOTHER 6 story in addition to the one they are building for Long Beach?

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## G.Walker

> If anyone actually read the article/ watched the video, they would have heard that they are building another 6 story building next to their existing one. makes sense.


This...

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## dmoor82

That exsisting Boeing building has been there for years,the six story building is for the Long Beach relocation.I wonder if they will build up or spread a facility out with this new 800 jobs?

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## Pete

No...  They have an existing 4-story building and Gardner Tanenbaum is constructing this six-story structure right next to it as part of the 320,000 square feet they'll need to house the 550, which are gradually moving/being hired.  They will take every bit of that new building and still may need more space just for the 550 people.

The building under construction has absolutely nothing to do with today's announcement and may in fact still not be enough for what they had already announced.


However, it does seem their intention is to have a "campus" so I would expect them to add another building or two at the current location at Air Depot & SE 59th.

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## G.Walker

I remember an article by Steve last year on downtown office space, and with interviewing Cathy O'Connor, her exact words were "I would like to see Boeing have a downtown presence, but that something we could hope for in the future" can someone pull that article..?

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## catch22

I agree it would be great to have them downtown, but they have already started construction and investing in that area at 59th and Air Depot....it wouldn't make sense to spend the money to build the office, then move everything downtown.

It also wouldn't make sense to move the 800+ jobs downtown, and leave the 1,000 other jobs at a separate office complex by Tinker. It would make more sense to build an office next to the existing ones, since that's where their investment is right now anyway. It would be like Chesapeake spending all of that money building and improving their empire, only to decide they want to be downtown. Besides, Boeing would have to build new...not much contiguous space downtown. I doubt they are interested in building a skyscraper at this present time.

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## Pete

Remember, they are leasing the one building they occupy and the other under construction.  Both were built and are owned by Gardner/Tanenbaum.

Looking at the aerial below, the yellow is their current 4-story 200,000 sq. ft. building; pink shows the 6-story 320,000 sq. ft. building under construction.

Blue is property also owned by G/T.

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## catch22

So Gardner is building then leasing out to Boeing? Both buildings, correct?

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## Pete

Yes, catch22 that is correct.

Also, they moved into that 4-story building to consolidate their employees to one site.


However, clearly these new jobs that are coming have been halfway across the country from the ones in Long Beach, so there isn't necessarily synergy between the two groups.  They may want that to happen, but they've always been very separate in the past.

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## poe

It's nice to see so many people happy about this move, but it's also nice to see the people of Oklahoma City recognize the community of Wichita will be dramatically impacted. So many times, especially nowadays, people prefer to gloat without thinking of others affected. 

Good for you, OKC.

----------


## G.Walker

> I agree it would be great to have them downtown, but they have already started construction and investing in that area at 59th and Air Depot....it wouldn't make sense to spend the money to build the office, then move everything downtown.
> 
> It also wouldn't make sense to move the 800+ jobs downtown, and leave the 1,000 other jobs at a separate office complex by Tinker. It would make more sense to build an office next to the existing ones, since that's where their investment is right now anyway. It would be like Chesapeake spending all of that money building and improving their empire, only to decide they want to be downtown. Besides, Boeing would have to build 
> new...not much contiguous space downtown. I doubt they are interested in building a skyscraper at this present time.


Corporations spread out in different office spaces all the time. Chesapeake has offices all over the city and remember Devon was located in 5 separate building for years.

----------


## catch22

I just can't see Boeing building an office tower downtown.....I would absolutely love to be proven wrong though.

----------


## Pete

G.Walker, this was the quote from Steve's July 17, 2011 article:




> O'Connor also admits to having her own dream addition to the downtown skyline.
> 
> “We're going to see companies from other communities come here,” O'Connor said. “We would love to see Boeing have a downtown presence. I wouldn't rule that out. I think that's the sort of thing we can look forward to in the future.”
> 
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/new-public-parking...#ixzz1iXl57NaH



I know the Chamber was heavily involved in this latest Boeing announcement, so this comment by O'Connor is not without significance.

----------


## G.Walker

> G.Walker, this was the quote from Steve's July 17, 2011 article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know the Chamber was heavily involved in this latest Boeing announcement, so this comment by O'Connor is not without significance.


Thanks Pete...hopefully this will happen now that we have 800+ jobs coming!

----------


## Pete

BTW, there is definitely not 500,000 square feet available downtown, unless you want to count FNC after Devon makes the move.  But, I seriously doubt that setup would suit their needs.

Maybe time for a 1,000,000 square foot spec tower with Boeing as the anchor tenant.  With all the interest in OKC and downtown in particular, we need large blocks of Class A space to lure these companies.

I'd love to see Devon get involved in partnering with some others to build such a building.  Just look at what the availability of the old Kerr McGee and Devon buildings has yielded!  Two new big employers downtown that are growing fast and adding tons of high-paying jobs.

----------


## G.Walker

> BTW, there is definitely not 500,000 square feet available downtown, unless you want to count FNC after Devon makes the move.  But, I seriously doubt that setup would suit their needs.
> 
> Maybe time for a 1,000,000 square foot spec tower with Boeing as the anchor tenant.  With all the interest in OKC and downtown in particular, we need large blocks of Class A space to lure these companies.
> 
> I'd love to see Devon get involved in partnering with some others to build such a building.  Just look at what the availability of the old Kerr McGee and Devon buildings has yielded!  Two new big employers downtown that are growing fast and adding tons of high-paying jobs.


Is Oklahoma Tower still for sale ? It would accommodate 800 employees...

----------


## dmoor82

with all these jobs coming to this area and not to mention the jobs already at Tinker,will we eventualy see that rail line from dt to MWC/TAFB?That would have some high ridership!

----------


## Pete

> isn't Oklahoma Tower for sale?


Yes, but it's almost fully leased.

No company that would want a bunch of space would buy it and wait until the multitude of leases started to expire.  If it sells, it will be to an investor.

----------


## OSUMom

Isn't Devon renting out a bunch of room in the Chase building?  How much is that going to open up?

----------


## Just the facts

> Just think what economic oppurtunity OKC lost to Indianapolis in the 90's!I cant wait till we see a HUGE relocation,not that this isnt big!


OKC dodged a huge bullet when United selected Indy.  That maintenance center closed not long after it opened and left Indy with a $540 million bill.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...-15-united.htm




> Near Indianapolis Airport, a once-bustling United Airlines facility soon will be a 1.7 million-square-foot white elephant.
> 
> The Indianapolis Maintenance Center was the crown jewel of United Airlines' respected maintenance program: a 24-hour, state-of-the-art facility for complex "heavy" maintenance on single-aisle Boeing and Airbus jets. In its heyday in the late '90s, the center employed almost 3,000 people. It was a source of civic pride for Indianapolis, which outbid nearly 100 cities to get the 7,500 high-paying jobs that United promised would be there by 2004. Indianapolis and Indiana shouldered most of the $540 million project cost.
> 
> Now, with United parent UAL in bankruptcy court and the nation at war, city and state officials in Indianapolis are learning how high a price communities can pay when big companies they woo run aground.
> 
> United has announced it is closing the center for a few months to cut costs, but the closure could well be permanent.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/10/bu...ted=all&src=pm




> That is what happened. United Airlines got $320 million in taxpayer money to build what is by all accounts the most technologically advanced aircraft maintenance center in America. But six months ago, the company walked away, leaving the city and state governments out all that money, and no new tenant in sight.

----------


## dmoor82

^^Well,nevermind.I'm glad they didnt choose OKC!

----------


## Snowman

> Just think what economic oppurtunity OKC lost to Indianapolis in the 90's!I cant wait till we see a HUGE relocation,not that this isnt big!


In addition to Pete's comments, without losing to Indianapolis the original MAPS probably would not have happened and that has had a much larger impact on OKC's economy, quality of life and future development than if the United work would have (even if it was not a failure like five years after it opened).

----------


## king183

> I would LOVE to know what your hearing about something larger later this year!


I know people hate teases (and so do I), but since I can't say any specifics for obvious reasons, I'll just say this:  Many of you probably remember reading an article in the Oklahoman sometime last year about the governor and the Chamber working together to convince businesses to move jobs to Oklahoma.  Boeing was a target and this is a direct result of their efforts. 

Interestingly, also mentioned in that same article was that the Chamber was attempting to convince a major corporation to relocate their headquarters to Oklahoma City.  I believe their efforts have a very strong chance of bearing some very good fruit.  If the efforts on one of their targets is successful, people will be stunned and the reaction to this Boeing announcement will seem like small beans.

It wouldn't surprise me if another tower was needed downtown.

----------


## Doug Loudenback

_Kansas City Star's_ editorial on the move: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/01/04...on-boeing.html

Boeing officially broke its promise to Kansans Wednesday, announcing that it will end 84 years of history in the state after 2013.Beyond the loss of 2,160 good jobs and $1.5 billion a decade in lost wages, this announcement is a betrayal.Boeing is now sitting on one very rich U.S. Air Force contract. The company is getting $35 billion to build refueling tanker planes. But it only nailed the contract 11 months ago, on the third try, after that contract initially had been awarded to rivals including the European giant EADS in 2008.How did it get that contract? There were many factors, but a substantial one was that the Kansas congressional delegation fought for Boeing, and fought hard.

In fact, the help was so well thought of that a year ago, Boeing played up the notion  even promised  that the contract would include a Wichita component, one leading to 7,500 local jobs in all, many at Boeing and others at local suppliers.So what does Wednesdays announcement mean? Make no mistake, the Kansas congressional delegation, led by Sen. Pat Roberts and then-senator and now Gov. Sam Brownback, got played. With this experience, Kansas pro-business politicians better have learned that the respect given to companies has to be a two-way street if those who elected them are to see any benefit. Even if the company is to be believed, the ink on its tanker contract had barely dried when company officials thought it was time to study the economic viability of their Wichita operation. Given the slow motion reactions of all companies the size of Boeing, it seems highly unlikely that the study it reportedly started in November was more than confirmation of a decision made long ago, but not announced until after elected Kansans went to the mat to reopen a contract that had been awarded to Boeings prime competitor. It now seems clear the company never had any real intention of beefing up the Wichita operation.It's hard, if not impossible, to argue with what the editorial says. Of course, if Boeing had made its decision to close the Wichita plant during the time that Kansan representatives were lobbying for Boeing, that really does stink.

But, as said by others, if they are going to move/close, I'm glad that the city is getting a good share of those affected. 

But, it's also good to remember that, down the line, Oklahoma City could be in for the same treatment.

----------


## CurtisJ

> I know people hate teases (and so do I), but since I can't say any specifics for obvious reasons, I'll just say this:  Many of you probably remember reading an article in the Oklahoman sometime last year about the governor and the Chamber working together to convince businesses to move jobs to Oklahoma.  Boeing was a target and this is a direct result of their efforts. 
> 
> Interestingly, also mentioned in that same article was that the Chamber was attempting to convince a major corporation to relocate their headquarters to Oklahoma City.  I believe their efforts have a very strong chance of bearing some very good fruit.  If the efforts on one of their targets is successful, people will be stunned and the reaction to this Boeing announcement will seem like small beans.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if another tower was needed downtown.


You just took a big tease and made it worse...

Thanks...

----------


## catch22

Article by Steve says up to 1,000. 100 or so from Wash. and 8-900 from Wichita.

Good move for us. I hope it doesn't hurt the Wichita economy too much, I hope some good news is coming there way soon.

----------


## dankrutka

I just moved to Wichita from downtown OKC last summer because of a job opportunity. OKC still feels more like home because I'm constantly travelling to Oklahoma and Texas on weekends and breaks... but this just breaks my heart. I feel much sadder for Wichita than happy for OKC. You can just tell from living there that this is really going to hurt the town.

----------


## G.Walker

Wichita is not that far from Oklahoma City, so hopefully it won't be a major transition for families. Times change, things change, its how you deal with the change that counts.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Wichita is not that far from Oklahoma City, so hopefully it won't be a major transition for families. Times change, things change, its how you deal with the change that counts.


A lot of people from Wichita might look forward to the move.........even though 'change' at times is tough.

----------


## catch22

Yes I imagine a good number of Wichita employees will be fine with the move. I have a few friends in Wichita and they consider OKC like we consider Dallas. That is, a larger metro for weekend getaways, or even to use our airport. The ones who enjoy visiting OKC will probably enjoy living here. I wish all of them good luck and hope this transition is smooth for the employees and the city of Wichita.

----------


## Sheetkeecker

Shouldn't the NLRB be blocking this outrage?

----------


## soonerfan_in_okc

is the boeing plant by tinker actually in OKC? Or is it in MWC/Del city? Just curious.

----------


## Bellaboo

> is the boeing plant by tinker actually in OKC? Or is it in MWC/Del city? Just curious.


It's in OKC, as is Tinker AFB.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Shouldn't the NLRB be blocking this outrage?


Could the NLRB actually block the move ?

----------


## dmoor82

I had a route in Hutchinson,KS today and this was all that was on the radio and being talked about by the locals.One morning radio dj said "Oklahoma City,who the hell wants to live there?"I had to laugh about someone from Wichita raggin' on OKC,but you can understand their frustration!

----------


## MDot

> I had a route in Hutchinson,KS today and this was all that was on the radio and being talked about by the locals.One morning radio dj said "Oklahoma City,who the hell wants to live there?"I had to laugh about someone from Wichita raggin' on OKC,but you can understand their frustration!


Funny this is that that guy probably comes to Oklahoma City every other weekend. But you Definately have to feel for Wichita and how long Boeing has been there to just pack up and move to two larger cities out of nowhere. Wish the best for them and their future; I hope they get another large business that invests in Wichita the way Boeing did.

----------


## ljbab728

http://newsok.com/chamber-boeing-pre...rticle/3637849

And another plus in connection with Boeing.

http://newsok.com/defense-company-in...rticle/3637848

----------


## Snowman

Growing up I had thought it was odd that Midwest City was east of OKC. I had never heard it was named for the base, at the time Midwest Air Depot.

----------


## ljbab728

http://newsok.com/boeing-bringing-ov.../1367980732001

----------


## Edgar

So basicall Boeing is outsourcing to take advantage of cheap 3rd world labor.

----------


## ljbab728

> So basicall Boeing is outsourcing to take advantage of cheap 3rd world labor.


It sounded more like they were bringing most of their labor with them.

----------


## Oil Capital

> OKC dodged a huge bullet when United selected Indy.  That maintenance center closed not long after it opened and left Indy with a $540 million bill.


To clarify, the Indianapolis maintenance center opened in 1994 and closed in 2003. AAR leased the facility in 2004.

----------


## G.Walker

Pete, shifting from the Preftakes thread to this one, I think some of us are basing our assumption re the 6 story building re this article:

http://newsok.com/chamber-boeing-pre...rticle/3637849


in the article Director of Oklahoma City Operations Mike Emmelhainz said “It's a mirror image of what we're in today, but a bit bigger,” Emmelhainz said of the second building. “We should be able to occupy the first floor by the end of the first quarter of this year. And it will house the remainder of the 550 employees coming here. And with the announcement made in Wichita, we will next make a transition for those employees. And there is enough capacity to house those additional employees.”

However, that doesn't necessarily mean they will be there, he is just saying they have room for them if the need be.

----------


## Pete

He either misspoke or is being misquoted because the numbers don't come close to adding up:

520,000 square feet between the two buildings (200,000 in the 4-story and 320,000 in the 6-story)1,250 employees before the recent announcementJust over 400 sq. ft. per employee, which is a low number to startThey had previously said they needed 320,000 for the 550 Long Beach jobs, which is closer to 600 square feet per employee (more the norm)

They will need about another 500,000 square feet just for these new 900-1,000 jobs and probably more as these are higher-paid engineering functions which will require more square footage per employee.

----------


## G.Walker

> He either misspoke or is being misquoted because the numbers don't come close to adding up:
> 
> 520,000 square feet between the two buildings (200,000 in the 4-story and 320,000 in the 6-story)1,250 employees before the recent announcementJust over 400 sq. ft. per employee, which is a low number to startThey had previously said they needed 320,000 for the 550 Long Beach jobs, which is closer to 600 square feet per employee (more the norm)
> 
> 
> They will need about another 500,000 square feet just for these new 900-1,000 jobs and probably more as these are higher-paid engineering functions which will require more square footage per employee.


Well, the only person who can clear up the confusion, is the person who wrote the article...Steve?

----------


## Questor

I guess you guys don't watch their job postings.  It's pretty clear that they inhabit buildings on-base as well.

----------


## SoonerDave

..

----------


## ljbab728

An interesting overview of the aerospace industry and it's inpact and relationship with OKC.

http://newsok.com/aerospace-industry...rticle/3638932

----------


## rjstone208

Almost all of the Boeing Engineers and many Logisticians work on base directly supporting a weapons system.  So Boeing folks supporting the B-52 system for example work in the B-52 area and so on although some work in the mainenance and repair areas, most in Bldg 3001, the mile long building off Douglas.  No sure but I'd guess that Boeing has the largest number of contractors physically working in offices (little square cubes) on Tinker.

----------


## workman45

> You just took a big tease and made it worse...
> 
> Thanks...


LOL!  Patience is a virtue.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

I wonder if this has been in the works for a while - Dell moved all their Boeing support to OKC last year.

----------


## Teo9969

It seems like the aerospace industry is something OKC should push harder to capture. OKC will be better off in the long run if it gets at least a little bit of diversification in the portfolio as soon as possible. Energy is great, and I think it will continue to be the bread-winner for OKC, but OKC needs to make a concerted effort to boost the attractiveness of the city to other markets as well.

All the Boeing jobs in the past 30 months that have been announced is a great start (especially considering that these are fantastic paying jobs). Let's hope to see someone else in the Aerospace industry make a move here.

----------


## ljbab728

> It seems like the aerospace industry is something OKC should push harder to capture. OKC will be better off in the long run if it gets at least a little bit of diversification in the portfolio as soon as possible.


What would you suggest they do to "push harder"?  It seems to me that it has already been a major priority and the pushing has netted great results.

----------


## Snowman

> It seems like the aerospace industry is something OKC should push harder to capture. OKC will be better off in the long run if it gets at least a little bit of diversification in the portfolio as soon as possible.


Tinker gets thrown around as our larges single employer due to all the support jobs related to it, if you want diversification then we would be pushing harder in other sectors or more the commercial side of aviation. Which they are already doing expansion for the commercial work with Will Rodgers east side project.

----------


## ljbab728

I still don't understand the request for the city to push harder in some other areas.  How do we know what areas the city has been pushing in?  We can push in many areas without success but that doesn't mean they aren't pushing.  You still take your successes wherever you can get them.

----------


## Snowman

> I still don't understand the request for the city to push harder in some other areas.  How do we know what areas the city has been pushing in?  We can push in many areas without success but that doesn't mean they aren't pushing.  You still take your successes wherever you can get them.


They are open to most any wanting to come, but you want diversification because that way when one takes a hit it does not kill all the cities revenues. I think Aerospace, Energy, Bioscience, Weather/Climate Research, Start-ups, Technology, Tourism were the focuses of the chamber on growing due to they have infrastructure to support those kind of things already so their is a lower barrier to get another one to come in.

----------


## ljbab728

> They are open to most any wanting to come, but you want diversification because that way when one takes a hit it does not kill all the cities revenues. I think Aerospace, Energy, Bioscience, Weather/Climate Research, Start-ups, Technology, Tourism were the focuses of the chamber on growing due to they have infrastructure to support those kind of things already so their is a lower barrier to get another one to come in.


I understand exactly why you want diversification.  What I don't understand is why some people think the city is not pursuing that.

----------


## Teo9969

I probably did not word my response the best.

My belief is not necessarily that the city is not pursuing a wider diversification in the economic fabric, indeed we neither see nor hear a lot of what goes on in meetings and conversations between higher-up OKC officials. But on some level, it would be nice to hear of these plans/ideas that they have and goals that the leaders have to accomplish the ultimate objective.

I think it would also be beneficial if City leaders put out more information to the citizens showing how investment in these types of businesses will ultimately bring a good return to the wealth of both the city and the individual.

----------


## bombermwc

Before someone comments on Teo's last sentence, i want to state what I the intent is. Letting the public know what we already know...how it's beneficial to do these things and how investing in local business is also good for the city. I can see some folks yelling at Teo and saying "how can you not realize that"....so i'm preempting it.

It would be nice if there was a section on the chamber's site, or okc.gov or something that showed which businesses are making use of these efforts. And maybe how to apply for those programs. If I knew of a startup that was working with the city to make things work, maybe my business would try and work with them as a vendor or something to support it. It's nothing but good to have local B2B going on.

----------


## Frustratedoptimist

I like bomber's website idea but I don't know anything about encouraging business diversification, so I'll just cut and run and say that I hope these higher income earners will move to downtown OKC or a surrounding neighborhood, but I'm afraid they will take thier housing and retail dollars to Edmond for the top-rated schools, etc. Since we don't really foresee an end to this trend, it sure would be good to see commuter rail on the horizon.

----------


## bombermwc

Hang on there....the diversification should also include small business. More people are employed by the small business in the U.S. than large business by several times over. That's another place this should be used. Help out the little guys and not just the big guys.

Back to Boeing though, a friend of mine that works at Boeing in Witchia (from OKC and moved there after college for the engineering job) said while they didn't mention it specifically, all of Boeing is leaving Wichita. They don't know which folks will be offered a job in OKC yet though...not until next month. We're actually excited to have them come back!

----------


## soonerguru

> I like bomber's website idea but I don't know anything about encouraging business diversification, so I'll just cut and run and say that I hope these higher income earners will move to downtown OKC or a surrounding neighborhood, but I'm afraid they will take thier housing and retail dollars to Edmond for the top-rated schools, etc. Since we don't really foresee an end to this trend, it sure would be good to see commuter rail on the horizon.


Edmond's schools are not "top rated."

----------


## dankrutka

> Edmond's schools are not "top rated."


Yes they are. The metrics used by state and federal agencies (as flawed as they are for overreliance on test scores and such...) rank all 3 Edmond high schools in the top 5-6 public high schools in the state. There is no doubt EPS is the tops on any list of best school districts.

----------


## Frustratedoptimist

Students living within OKC city limits and in the EPS District make up almost 1/3 of all the EPS students.  I can guarantee you Edmond will be trying to allure them.

----------


## Larry OKC

> LOL!  Patience is a virtue.


true, but there is no time like the present :Hobbes:  :Calvin2:

----------


## Pete

Some potentially bad news:




> About half of the 550 jobs being transferred by Boeing from its operation in Long Beach, Calif., to Oklahoma City are in jeopardy as part of a proposed 2013 Pentagon budget that would cut $487 billion in spending over the next decade.
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/boeing-jobs-to-okl...#ixzz1lFIdIGsy

----------


## ljbab728

That's certainly not good news but it is far better that any job cuts be made before they move here than wait until a couple of years later and then cut back our local workforce.

----------


## Larry OKC

> It seems like the aerospace industry is something OKC should push harder to capture. *OKC will be better off in the long run if it gets at least a little bit of diversification in the portfolio as soon as possible.* Energy is great, and I think it will continue to be the bread-winner for OKC, but OKC needs to make a concerted effort to boost the attractiveness of the city to other markets as well.
> 
> All the Boeing jobs in the past 30 months that have been announced is a great start (especially considering that these are fantastic paying jobs). Let's hope to see someone else in the Aerospace industry make a move here.


The Mayor made the same sentiments in his recent State of the City speech...

http://www.okc.gov/council/mayor/sta...012/index.html



> On the flip side, *we need to continue to diversify.* As much as we have invested time and resources on creating jobs in aviation, bio-medical, and manufacturing, the energy sector continues to multiply and it is getting larger and larger. It’s a good problem to have, but *we must make sure our economy looks at, and encourages, other market sectors.*

----------


## Spartan

Truthfully, it's hard to weep over the loss of some of these Boeing jobs or to have any sympathy for Pentagon budget cuts whatsoever. But a thousand new Boeing jobs would have been awesome.

Who knows, it'll probably still happen. The Pentagon will just invade another country like Iran or NK if they need to get off their arse to justify the larger budget.

----------


## catch22

Spartan, the 1,000 jobs from Wichita, KS and Puget Sound, WA are not reported as being under threat from the budget cuts. Just half (220/550) of the jobs from Long Beach, CA announced in 2010 are. We are still getting 1,000+ new Boeing jobs. (knock on wood)

----------


## Questor

Plus, this is only what the Pentagon _wants_.  It still remains to be seen what our politicians will actually _do_.

----------


## mimino

Hey, everybody!

Not sure if this thread belongs in this section, so move it, if needed be  :Smile: 

I've received a call today informing me that I was extended a contingent offer of employment with Boeing.
Has anyone worked at/for Boeing? (in the corporate structure) Anything in particular I should brace for? I'll probably have more questions as this thread progresses (I hope so)

Many thanks! 

P.S. I also have a government (city) test to go to tomorrow, any experience with working for the big Brother?

----------


## WilliamTell

I'm going to sound like a big jerk - so in the end do what you want. I work for the government now and but at one time I was a contractor for DOD like you are about to be. If I was you I would delete this post, you are giving out way to much information and defense contractors are pretty famous for rescinding offers because of what someone inside saw on the internet.

Just to try to be helpful ive known about 10 people who have and/or are currently working for boeing; even a few in finance. The truth is its a job, you probably wont like it since you are fresh out of college and it will be no where as exciting or fun as you think it would be... but you'll get over it in a year or two, we all do. 

-Dont expect to move up extremely fast, like most large organizations its easier to get a higher paying job from the outside than within. (from what ive heard from boeing friends)
-Most up and comers are out of OKC within 5 years to seattle, chicago or dc. 
-Decently stable job since they support the government, but that can change within a short amount of time.

As far as government jobs go - typically more stable at the state and then federal level, more opportunities to move up (older work force, less motivated employees) but its hard to feel like you are making a big difference since there is so much governance about what you can and cant do. 


Do yourself a favor and delete this post OR at least the info about the company, position offered, your degree, etc.

----------


## mimino

> I'm going to sound like a big jerk - so in the end do what you want. I work for the government now and but at one time I was a contractor for DOD like you are about to be. If I was you I would delete this post, you are giving out way to much information and defense contractors are pretty famous for rescinding offers because of what someone inside saw on the internet.
> 
> Just to try to be helpful ive known about 10 people who have and/or are currently working for boeing; even a few in finance. The truth is its a job, you probably wont like it since you are fresh out of college and it will be no where as exciting or fun as you think it would be... but you'll get over it in a year or two, we all do. 
> 
> -Dont expect to move up extremely fast, like most large organizations its easier to get a higher paying job from the outside than within. (from what ive heard from boeing friends)
> -Most up and comers are out of OKC within 5 years to seattle, chicago or dc. 
> -Decently stable job since they support the government, but that can change within a short amount of time.
> 
> As far as government jobs go - typically more stable at the state and then federal level, more opportunities to move up (older work force, less motivated employees) but its hard to feel like you are making a big difference since there is so much governance about what you can and cant do. 
> ...


Didn't sound like a jerk advice one bit  :Smile:  I'm not fresh out of college, by any means, just been struggling to secure a desired position ever since graduation. This is the closest to my degree/skills I've gotten.

----------


## ljbab728

Boeing opens second building and plans to add at least 1200 additional jobs by the end of next year.

http://newsok.com/boeing-opens-secon...rticle/3682369

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Boeing opens second building and plans to add at least 1200 additional jobs by the end of next year.
> 
> http://newsok.com/boeing-opens-secon...rticle/3682369


It looks like the State Legislature, the Chamber and the Department of Commerce working together on this for severals years finally got it right.  It is just now starting to pay off.

----------


## NoOkie

Jeez that building took a long time.

I remember being out at that site 3 or 4 years ago.

----------


## Snowman

> Jeez that building took a long time.
> 
> I remember being out at that site 3 or 4 years ago.


Are you thinking of that building or the extremely similar building next to it that was completed a few years ago?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Jeez that building took a long time.
> 
> I remember being out at that site 3 or 4 years ago.


This new building took just 13 months.....seems pretty fast to me.

----------


## NoOkie

> Are you thinking of that building or the extremely similar building next to it that was completed a few years ago?


Probably this.  I didn't realize they built another.  I haven't done any work for GT Construction in a few years.

----------


## Spartan

> Are you thinking of that building or the extremely similar building next to it that was completed a few years ago?


The MROTC

----------


## Easy180

Great news for me as a relocating Boeing employee just bought my house!

----------


## Pete

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I just started a consulting project with a company in an office park near the Long Beach Airport; part of a huge multi-use project on the site of a demolished Boeing plant.

There is still a large Boeing facility there, but they once had a couple of million of square feet and now it's only about a quarter of that.

The relocation of jobs to OKC is only partially responsible for the shrinkage but it's strange to see huge open spaces (to be developed) where massive Boeing facilities once stood.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Great news for me as a relocating Boeing employee just bought my house!


Congrats !

----------


## ljbab728

This certainly speaks well for OKC.

Boeing employees appear to like Oklahoma City, site director says | News OK




> Q: You were one of the Boeing employees who moved here from California. How's that transition going?
> A: Typically, about 10 percent of the people you ask to transfer agree. We got closer to 50 percent. Many of those folks have now reached their one-year point. The relocation incentives lasted one year, and some people predicted they would all go back. I can count on one hand the number that did. By and large, the folks from California are liking it and buying homes and making a life for themselves here in Oklahoma. We're also moving a bunch of folks from Wichita (Kan.). We are about 300 jobs away from being done. When we started relocating, it was 800 jobs total. We have about 150 more to move and 150 more to hire. I expected a lot of hiccups but the move has been amazingly smooth. It's less about what the company does and more about what the community does.

----------


## soonerguru

> This certainly speaks well for OKC.
> 
> Boeing employees appear to like Oklahoma City, site director says | News OK


That reads like an Onion headline. Are we really surprised people like OKC? Lets get over the constant need for validation. It seems pathetic.

----------


## Teo9969

> That reads like an Onion headline. Are we really surprised people like OKC? Lets get over the constant need for validation. It seems pathetic.


Wow

----------


## SoonerDave

> That reads like an Onion headline. Are we really surprised people like OKC? Lets get over the constant need for validation. It seems pathetic.


Calm down and look at the story. The writer didn't create the dubious headline. The story itself is very reasonable and discusses vet cogently the legitimate concerns many had about moving a large group from California to OKC. OKC reps worked hard to make that transition as smooth as possible. The story is very laudatory of that effort.

----------


## Just the facts

> That reads like an Onion headline. Are we really surprised people like OKC? Lets get over the constant need for validation. It seems pathetic.


I agree 100%, even if it is just the headline.



In addition, these people are leaving Southern California - of course they will like OKC.  They are getting out of a prison many of them didn't even realize they were in.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> They are getting out of a prison many of them didn't even realize they were in.


Really?

----------


## Just the facts

I lived in California for 20 years.  I know what I speak of.  The best thing about banging your head against the wall is that feels so good when you stop.

----------


## Just the facts

No.  I am sure the people who stayed behind like it there.  Heck, i liked it there until I moved away and then move back again.  Then I realized the economic prison it was.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

California is not for everyone. It is not an economic prison. That is only opinion.

----------


## HOT ROD

I don't think the story was for vindication or validation, instead - I think the story was an interview with the new Boeing exec who said his people who transplanted are enjoying the move and that some of THEM were surprised.

----------


## WilliamTell

I've spent a considerable amount of time in california. To call it an economic prision is completely absurd. 

Perfect weather 24/7/365, pretty people in shape people, beaches, mountains, snow and trees. It was horrible. 

Really the only barrier i saw was house prices because of a bubble, but look at what we have started in okc. You used to be able to get a 2500 sq house a few years ago for 175, now its 260. If thats not a bubble i dont know what is.

----------


## Just the facts

Okay, I am not going to dig the hole any deeper.  It was a joke based on my own personal experience and those of people I know.

----------


## bchris02

> I've spent a considerable amount of time in california. To call it an economic prision is completely absurd. 
> 
> *Perfect weather 24/7/365, pretty people in shape people, beaches, mountains, snow and trees. It was horrible.* 
> 
> Really the only barrier i saw was house prices because of a bubble, but look at what we have started in okc. You used to be able to get a 2500 sq house a few years ago for 175, now its 260. If thats not a bubble i dont know what is.


Agreed.  If offered to move to California on a high enough salary, I would do it without thinking twice.

As for the article, having lives in the east coast, for me living in Oklahoma is an _acquired_ taste, one that I myself am still acquiring.  It's very different from the east or west coasts and I can honestly see why some would be surprised these transplants, many of them young professionals, would embrace it here so easily.  It speaks volumes for how far OKC has come.  Just a few years ago, that wouldn't have been the case.

----------


## progressiveboy

> California is not for everyone. It is not an economic prison. That is only opinion.


 I would love to live in California. Beautiful redwood forests, mountains, great weather beaches lots and lots of attractions.California Wine Country, Beautiful, perfect San Diego weather, lots of tourism. I lived in California for a time as a small child.

----------


## Spartan

I don't see how California is any different from Florida, all things considered. One has earthquakes, the other hurricanes.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I would love to live in California. Beautiful redwood forests, mountains, great weather beaches lots and lots of attractions.California Wine Country, Beautiful, perfect San Diego weather, lots of tourism. I lived in California for a time as a small child.


I've never seen the Redwoods, I would love to however. I've only been to L.A. many times and I've passed through San Diego once. I would love to go site seeing though. Yosemite would be amazing and I really want to visit San Fran soon!!!!! The people are also pretty nice to, contrary to what I've heard. California is a wonderful place. Obviously, I love my hometown, but if there is any other place I would want to live right now, it'd be Newport Beach.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I don't see how California is any different from Florida, all things considered. One has earthquakes, the other hurricanes.


One is about to get a high-speed rail soon  :Wink:

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> One is about to get a high-speed rail soon


I thought both states were getting HSR soon? I'm going off memory though, so I'm not sure.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I heard talks about Florida getting one, I thought they were at the same place Oklahoma and Texas are though, maybe I'm wrong and they're further ahead, I can't really remember.

Also, the one in California is already under-construction, if I recall correctly.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Also, the one in California is already under-construction, if I recall correctly.


I'm quite sure it is. I follow Los Angeles & San Francsico development & I vaguely recall them mentioning it.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I'm quite sure it is. I follow Los Angeles & San Francsico development & I vaguely recall them mentioning it.


Yes, I believe the opening date was around 2017 or something like that.

----------


## soonerguru

> I thought both states were getting HSR soon? I'm going off memory though, so I'm not sure.


Yes, Florida was approved for a billion in federal funds, that is until their idiotic governor turned it down!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Yes, Florida was approved for a billion in federal funds, that is until their idiotic governor turned it down!


Didn't Marry Fallin do the same thing a while back?

----------


## soonerguru

> Didn't Marry Fallin do the same thing a while back?


Kinda. Instead of turning down money for HSR she turned down money to help poor people get insurance, cuz Obama.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Kinda. Instead of turning down money for HSR she turned down money to help poor people get insurance, cuz Obama.


I swear I heard something a while back about Marry Fallin turning down funds for some sort of rail system.

----------


## Doug Loudenback

> Good grief.


Absolutely agree.

----------


## vaflyer

> Yes, I believe the opening date was around 2017 or something like that.


The first section under construction is a 130-mile segment from Madera to Bakersfield in the Central Valley. It is only that 130-mile segment that will be open in 2017. Most of project, which CHSRA in November 2011 estimated to cost $98.5 billion, is not close to being fully funded.

----------


## HOT ROD

California has mountains and is dryer in general, Florida is flat and is quite a bit wetter. California is larger in area and population and the culture is laid back and relaxed. Florida is relaxed but I wouldn't call it laid back. Both have some social issues.

There are things that OKC can take/learn from both places; I think as OKC continues to grow it should embrace ideas that work in other areas while maintaining its own heritage. By doing this OKC should be even more welcoming to folks as they relocate.

----------


## BlackmoreRulz

We took their basketball team, wish we could get this too

Boeing Launches Search For 777X Airliner's New Home - Forbes

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> let’s just say it is west of the Mississippi and well south of Washington.


WE MATCH THAT!!!!!!!! Hope they're not referring to Kansas. That would be freaking sweet if Boeing decided to set up shop here. Don't get your hopes up, but at the same remain optimistic. It could happen. Hell, even if they decided to move into Tulsa, that'd be cool with me. I'd prefer them here in OKC, but that would likely benefit the whole state anyways.

----------


## mugofbeer

It would be sweet but I definitely won't hold my breath.  I'm not familiar with what Boeing has in Wichita.  Is it sufficient to buld such a large plane?

----------


## Snowman

> It would be sweet but I definitely won't hold my breath.  I'm not familiar with what Boeing has in Wichita.  Is it sufficient to buld such a large plane?


They spun off the plant that builds I think 737 several years but still produces fuselage components for Boeing, they also in the last couple years shut down a plant right next to that and was even larger, I think for military cargo planes.

I really doubt that SoCal would have that good a shot, despite the author from the article being linked in post 135 seeming big on it.

----------


## bchris02

> WE MATCH THAT!!!!!!!! Hope they're not referring to Kansas. That would be freaking sweet if Boeing decided to set up shop here. Don't get your hopes up, but at the same remain optimistic. It could happen. Hell, even if they decided to move into Tulsa, that'd be cool with me. I'd prefer them here in OKC, but that would likely benefit the whole state anyways.


I wonder if this is what Steve has been hinting at as the most exciting thing coming that he can't report on yet.

----------


## lasomeday

> I wonder if this is what Steve has been hinting at as the most exciting thing coming that he can't report on yet.


They will go to a right to work state.  They are tired of the unions.  Their biggest competitor is subsidized heavily by the EU, so they need to keep their costs as low as possible.

----------


## catch22

San Antonio

----------


## adaniel

Boeing ops here skew heavily towards defense type work. I doubt they would come here, although it would be nice if they did.

----------


## venture

> They will go to a right to work state.  They are tired of the unions.  Their biggest competitor is subsidized heavily by the EU, so they need to keep their costs as low as possible.


Majority of the time they play Washington State to pony up money when it comes to things like this. Also let's not sit here and and discount the subsidy that Boeing gets just because they are called military contracts. 

Kansas would be one option. The old Boeing facilities are all Spirit Aerosystems which was the spin off 737 operation. 

Loudest rumor has been Southern California since they still own a ton of property at the old MDD facilities in Long Beach. 

The newest factory in South Carolina (additional 787 line) would be a good option too. 

I think it would also be a good option to look at Ohio, Indiana, or Michigan as well. Those states would love to get this and they are getting more business friendly (Michigan and Indiana are R2W). Good manufacturing jobs would be a huge draw up there.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> San Antonio


Is that a guess or what you've heard?

----------


## catch22

Boeing Commercial Airplanes (BCA division of Boeing) has zero presence in Oklahoma City. All of OKC is BDS (Boeing Defense). They are two separate and mostly independent divisions of Boeing, in reality you would be brining a brand new company to the city. OKC workforce has zero experience in the manufacturing process of commercial airplanes. All of our jobs are mostly repair and overhaul. 

OKC is not attractive to this kind of work. 

The company announced they are looking at long beach, Ogden UT, and San Antonio. My bet is on San Antonio.

----------


## Urbanized

> I wonder if this is what Steve has been hinting at as the most exciting thing coming that he can't report on yet.


No.

----------


## BG918

Wrong thread

----------


## catch22

^?

----------


## ljbab728

> Boeing Commercial Airplanes (BCA division of Boeing) has zero presence in Oklahoma City. All of OKC is BDS (Boeing Defense). They are two separate and mostly independent divisions of Boeing, in reality you would be brining a brand new company to the city. OKC workforce has zero experience in the manufacturing process of commercial airplanes. All of our jobs are mostly repair and overhaul. 
> 
> OKC is not attractive to this kind of work. 
> 
> The company announced they are looking at long beach, Ogden UT, and San Antonio. My bet is on San Antonio.


Does San Antonio have a workforce familiar with the manufacture of commercial airplanes?

----------


## mugofbeer

> Boeing Commercial Airplanes (BCA division of Boeing) has zero presence in Oklahoma City. All of OKC is BDS (Boeing Defense). They are two separate and mostly independent divisions of Boeing, in reality you would be brining a brand new company to the city. OKC workforce has zero experience in the manufacturing process of commercial airplanes. All of our jobs are mostly repair and overhaul. 
> 
> OKC is not attractive to this kind of work. 
> 
> The company announced they are looking at long beach, Ogden UT, and San Antonio. My bet is on San Antonio.


These are all valid points.  However, I don't think that Utah or San Antonio have any experience with this either, though I could be wrong.  A lot of the fuselage of this plane is built in Japan and the pieces must be shipped on a special rail track in Seattle.  This leads me to think Long Beach would be the place but what do they gain there?  The workforce will still be hostile union.  I wonder if some of the fuselage will be moved back to US construction.

----------


## venture

> These are all valid points.  However, I don't think that Utah or San Antonio have any experience with this either, though I could be wrong.  A lot of the fuselage of this plane is built in Japan and the pieces must be shipped on a special rail track in Seattle.  This leads me to think Long Beach would be the place but what do they gain there?  The workforce will still be hostile union.  I wonder if some of the fuselage will be moved back to US construction.


Not sure where you got that the 777X fuse will be built in Japan. Majority of the support will be coming from existing facilities in Charleston (SC), Huntsville (AL), Long Beach, Philly, and St. Louis. The only foreign site appears to be in Moscow. I would be shocked if it doesn't go to Long Beach or Charleston. 

Boeing and the unions do this dance around every new model that comes out.

----------


## lasomeday

Boeing nets $100B in orders at Dubai Airshow | News OK

Sounds like they may need more than one place to build these 777X planes if they keep having this great of sales.

----------


## venture

> Boeing nets $100B in orders at Dubai Airshow | News OK
> 
> Sounds like they may need more than one place to build these 777X planes if they keep having this great of sales.


Depends on how spread out the timetable is for the orders. From what I've read, the 777X is designed around the Middle East carriers and several traditional customers elsewhere in the West aren't happy with some of the changes. However, I doubt they build two new sites. If they need they'll add extra lines at another production facility, but the key issue will be getting components there. They are already pushing it having to fly 787 sections out to South Carolina now.

----------


## HangryHippo

With the presence Boeing defense has here (is it really that big?), it's a little surprising that OKC (or OK in general) doesn't see more aircraft work.  Isn't our state always touting its aviation workforce and experience?  Why couldn't we get a look from Boeing for this line of work?

----------


## adaniel

> With the presence Boeing defense has here (is it really that big?), it's a little surprising that OKC (or OK in general) doesn't see more aircraft work.  Isn't our state always touting its aviation workforce and experience?  Why couldn't we get a look from Boeing for this line of work?


I'm not quite sure what context you meant this but this state gets plenty of aviation work. 

The OKC Air Logistics Center is the largest such operation in the entire Dept of Defense and one of the largest in the world. And a good amount of work is done by private companies that have been contracted out. Its probably why Tinker has largely escaped BRAC cuts and a big reason Boeing is even in OKC. 

As already repeated, Boeing's defense and commercial divisions are completely separate and having one doesn't mean work can easily be done on the other. But no matter where this Boeing 777 work lands, there's a big possibility that Spirit Aeorsystems and Nordam Group (both with big ops in Tulsa) will likely do quite a bit of work. And then when the new planes finally do get in service, they will probably get maintenance work at the AA facility in Tulsa, which works on a number of other planes in addition to the ones for its airline.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I'm not quite sure what context you meant this but this state gets plenty of aviation work. 
> 
> The OKC Air Logistics Center is the largest such operation in the entire Dept of Defense and one of the largest in the world. And a good amount of work is done by private companies that have been contracted out. Its probably why Tinker has largely escaped BRAC cuts and a big reason Boeing is even in OKC. 
> 
> As already repeated, Boeing's defense and commercial divisions are completely separate and having one doesn't mean work can easily be done on the other. But no matter where this Boeing 777 work lands, there's a big possibility that Spirit Aeorsystems and Nordam Group (both with big ops in Tulsa) will likely do quite a bit of work. And then when the new planes finally do get in service, they will probably get maintenance work at the AA facility in Tulsa, which works on a number of other planes in addition to the ones for its airline.


I meant aviation work from Boeing's commercial division.  It seems logical to think that if one does a lot of aviation work for the defense industry, then one could also do a lot of aviation work for the commercial industry.

As for Spirit and Nordam, I'm pretty certain I read about both companies having had significant layoffs in Tulsa.  So, I think it remains to be seen just how much work they'll see.  As for your assumption that AA will get maintenance work on this new line of jets, well, let's just agree to disagree about how a new aircraft production like this will affect an airline specific facility in Tulsa.

----------


## venture

We also have to realize that there is a limit to the skilled workforce. Only so many will move here to work for Boeing. Also there are going to be states bending over backwards to lure them in. 

As far as the impacts on AA in TUL. It depends on if they even order this version of the 777...let alone the status of the Tulsa facility at that time. AA is Doug's baby now so it'll be interesting to see how things are divided up. Could be a situation where Tulsa handles the Boeing fleet and Pittsburgh handles all Airbus aircraft.

----------


## HangryHippo

> We also have to realize that there is a limit to the skilled workforce. Only so many will move here to work for Boeing. Also there are going to be states bending over backwards to lure them in. 
> 
> As far as the impacts on AA in TUL. It depends on if they even order this version of the 777...let alone the status of the Tulsa facility at that time. AA is Doug's baby now so it'll be interesting to see how things are divided up. Could be a situation where Tulsa handles the Boeing fleet and Pittsburgh handles all Airbus aircraft.


Venture, just out of curiosity, with KC closed, where does AA do maintenance work outside of Tulsa?  Is there work done in Dallas?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Venture, just out of curiosity, with KC closed, where does AA do maintenance work outside of Tulsa?  Is there work done in Dallas?


At one time they were at Alliance in Ft Worth also. Probably still are to a degree.

----------


## adaniel

> I meant aviation work from Boeing's commercial division.  It seems logical to think that if one does a lot of aviation work for the defense industry, then one could also do a lot of aviation work for the commercial industry.


Seems logical yes. But to add to what venture said, different skill set, different contracts, different buildings and equipment, etc. between the two. You can't just flip a switch between the two because they are both working on planes just like General Motors couldn't easily flip between making cars and buses in the same plant because they are both "motor vehicles."  

As far as the layoffs, that is the current state of the aviation biz. Just look at the layoffs in Wichita. Horrible what has gone on up there. Maybe that's why you are thinking that OK is not luring in enough work. Because there is frankly not a lot to go around. Hopefully this new work is a signal that things are turning around.

----------


## ou48A

> They will go to a right to work state.  *They are tired of the unions*.  Their biggest competitor is subsidized heavily by the EU, so they need to keep their costs as low as possible.


This^ big time

Boeing isn't likely to locate anything new of significance in the entire state of Washington
Boeing Union Rejects Contract - WSJ.com

Boeing Union Rejects Contract
Decision May Lead Jet Maker to Consider Locating 777X Project Outside Its Puget Sound Base

----------


## venture

> Venture, just out of curiosity, with KC closed, where does AA do maintenance work outside of Tulsa?  Is there work done in Dallas?


KC is dead and I think Alliance is also dead now in Fort Worth. The only remaining one outside of Tulsa is at DFW. I did leave out that US has a heavy mx base at CLT as well. So we will probably see DFW & TUL continue to handle Boeing and Douglas aircraft and PIT & CLT handle Airbus and Embraer aircraft. I'm not sure where Eagle, Piedmont and PSA will do their mx after the merger since the fate of the wholly owned subsidiaries is probably up in the air.

----------


## mugofbeer

> Not sure where you got that the 777X fuse will be built in Japan. Majority of the support will be coming from existing facilities in Charleston (SC), Huntsville (AL), Long Beach, Philly, and St. Louis. The only foreign site appears to be in Moscow. I would be shocked if it doesn't go to Long Beach or Charleston. 
> 
> Boeing and the unions do this dance around every new model that comes out.


Boeing launches hunt for 777X site | Business & Technology | The Seattle Times




> However, Salt Lake is landlocked. At present, Boeing transports the 777’s huge fuselage panels by sea from Japan to Everett. Figuring out alternative logistics to Salt Lake would be expensive.

----------


## Bellaboo

Aero Commander and Gulfstream built planes here beginning in 1952. I believe this went on for 30 - 40 years or so. Lots of history in the industry beyond Tinker and FAA.

----------


## Questor

So everyone keeps forgetting what they do in this city is mostly hardware engineering, software engineering, and related work. What you guys are talking about in this thread is shop floor work. Apples and oranges.

----------


## catch22

And even shop floor work varies greatly between overhaul (what OKC does -- but not Boeing OKC) and manufacturing.

----------


## HOT ROD

My bet is on Long Beach since they already have production facilities there (the former McDonnell Douglass factory that produced the MD-11/DC-10 series and the DC 9 series aircraft). Boeing 777 is similar in size to the MD-11/DC-10. 

In Long Beach, they could open a complete new 777X production line (start to final assembly) whereas the other locations likely would just be everything before final assembly (which would still be in Everett, WA). IMO, the only hitch would be unionization in Cali but I think that is a factor at the other relocation candidates; and it would have to be a NEW facility AND new Tooling in Ogden and SAT whereas Boeing already built/building fresh in Charleston SC (so why build fresh somewhere else, that is unionized?). 

By the way, we/Washington state already gave Boeing tax benefits and JUST voted to extend them a few days ago to have the 777X subcomponents built here. The union voted NO as Boeing wanted to get rid of pensions and other benefits that have been cornerstone of Boeing's existence (I once worked there and still have my pension, etc).

I see this as a slam dunk for California and certainly would bode well for their job market. But it would be WONDERFUL if OKC could convince them to open a commercial factory in the city and have a complete Boeing experience (well, there'd still be no Space division; but still).

----------


## Snowman

> My bet is on Long Beach since they already have production facilities there (the former McDonnell Douglass factory that produced the MD-11/DC-10 series and the DC 9 series aircraft). Boeing 777 is similar in size to the MD-11/DC-10. 
> 
> In Long Beach, they could open a complete new 777X production line (start to final assembly) whereas the other locations likely would just be everything before final assembly (which would still be in Everett, WA). IMO, the only hitch would be unionization in Cali but I think that is a factor at the other relocation candidates; and it would have to be a NEW facility AND new Tooling in Ogden and SAT whereas Boeing already built/building fresh in Charleston SC (so why build fresh somewhere else, that is unionized?).


Cal would need to step up with some tax benefits as well since it keeps either hovering near the dubious distinction of worst state to do business in many lists/surveys, it takes the title in a few.

----------


## mugofbeer

Not just tax benefits but I'm not sure what Boeing gains with labor issues and costs in Long Beach over Seattle.  I agree, otherwise, it would seem to be a slam dunk.

----------


## venture

They are still producing the C-17, as far as I know, in Long Beach. So LGB is not really going to be a stretch to take on 777X final assembly.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Just curious, if OKC did land the new site for Boeing's 777, how big would that be? Like GE Research Center big?

----------


## catch22

Bigger.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Wow, ok. Didn't realize it would be that significant. That kind of lowers my hopes a little bit. Is that bad? lol

----------


## HOT ROD

777 is the 2nd biggest airliner for Boeing, after the 747. 777 is the largest two engine twin-aisle long haul jet on the planet. The final assembly building in Everett WA has 2 bays (the newest on the East of the complex) as well as its own STP also on the East, basically 1/3 of the building which many consider the largest building by volume in the world. 

If OKC were to get the 777X, then plan on something likely larger than anything existing in OKC or at least as big as the former GM production facility (3.5 Million square feet).

To Venture, LGB was building C17 back when Boeing and McD was building commercial airliners there also (MD-11 and MD-95/Boeing 717). I think the biggest hurdle for LGB will be union based but they likely may welcome the work and take concessions that the Seattle union would never give up. 

Then again, WA did extend Boeing's tax benefits for another 15-years so it is somewhat likely that they could indeed stay put since the infrastructure and workforce is already up here and it likely would be far cheaper to do it up here overall.

----------


## venture

HR - Yeah...the tax benefits they get from WA always seem to win folks over. However, I wouldn't be completely shocked to see them do a split site again like they did with the 787.

----------


## HOT ROD

good point, and I agree.

----------


## SoonerDave

> I meant aviation work from Boeing's commercial division.  It seems logical to think that if one does a lot of aviation work for the defense industry, then one could also do a lot of aviation work for the commercial industry.


At a basic level, there's a bit of truth to what you're saying, but in practical terms, its not as great an overlap as one might think. 

Remember that commercial and defense aircraft are very different animals with very different requirements. Military derivatives of commercial aircraft have drastically different "guts" (for lack of a more elegant term) that require corresponding maintenance facilities to ramp up in a manner fairly different from that used for commercial upkeep. Much of the maintenance work that goes on for commercial aircraft is N/A for military, and, naturally, vice-versa. Yes, a given basic airframe is still the same "shell", so there is obvious commonality there, but there can be all manner of military-specific differences, eg engine types/performance, comm systems, flight envelope requirements, heck, even exterior finishes, nuclear hardening requirements, stuff like that which mitigates the value of the overlap.

----------


## ljbab728

Still hints that Oklahoma may be pursuing Boeing for this new project.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/3913281?embargo=1




> Citing confidentiality provisions, Oklahoma Department of Commerce officials declined Monday to comment on whether the state planned to submit a bid for the 777X site selection competition.
> 
> “We are often engaged in conversations with Boeing's leadership to discuss opportunities well suited for Oklahoma,” said Erika Lucas, the department's deputy director for global and communications. “At this point we don't have further details to offer.”

----------


## LakeEffect

> Still hints that Oklahoma may be pursuing Boeing for this new project.
> 
> http://www.oklahoman.com/article/3913281?embargo=1


Interesting. Some states have been very vocal about their efforts on this, others have not. I don't know why we wouldn't at least try...

----------


## CaptDave

Wonder if the GM plant might accommodate an aircraft production line with some modification? Wouldn't be terribly difficult to connect to TAFB runways and the rail infrastructure to bring in components is already in place.

----------


## Snowman

> Wonder if the GM plant might accommodate an aircraft production line with some modification? Wouldn't be terribly difficult to connect to TAFB runways and the rail infrastructure to bring in components is already in place.


The old GM plant is already operating to support the base and has more people working in it than when it made vehicles.

----------


## CaptDave

> The old GM plant is already operating to support the base and has more people working in it than when it made vehicles.


Ok - are they actually working on aircraft inside? Either way - the city purchasing that facility was a very smart move.

----------


## Snowman

> Ok - are they actually working on aircraft inside? Either way - the city purchasing that facility was a very smart move.


I got the impression it was more engines and other components not currently attached but not totally sure.

----------


## CaptDave

> I got the impression it was more engines and other components not currently attached but not totally sure.


That makes more sense. I didn't recall any taxiways leading to that facility. Also little or no building modification required. Cool - learned something.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Ok - are they actually working on aircraft inside? Either way - the city purchasing that facility was a very smart move.


Just FYI.  The old gm building is now fully inside the base perimeter   And If I remember correctly it was a county purchase

----------


## CaptDave

Interesting - I thought it was city. Either way it is a good thing for the area. Do you know if the facility does military work exclusively or civilian also? 

(This is one of those subjects that I know just enough about it to know very little. :-D )

----------


## Paseofreak

^ Correct.  And there is no ramp to the former GM (now TAC Facility).

----------


## LakeEffect

WWRA still has plentiful land and the relatively easy ability to construct a rail connection for freight access. It would be interesting.

----------


## CaptDave

> WWRA still has plentiful land and the relatively easy ability to construct a rail connection for freight access. It would be interesting.


Might also help jump start a commuter rail connection between WRWA and downtown too. If rail construction was going to be done in that area anyway, might as well make the corridor accommodate an additional line. We are incredibly lucky there are so many opportunities for smart development like this in OKC.

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## shawnw

From what I understand the AF is working toward buying the building. It's too valuable to Tinker now that so much has been moved around from other buildings.

----------


## catch22

Although I am glad to see a hint that OKC would be pursuing this. I have doubts on how far along in the selection process we would get.


Would LOVE to be proven wrong, however.

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## MFracas84

The old GM building is now called building 9001 or TAC building. It now houses the F-108, TF-33 and F-110 engine lines as well as some sheet metal and flight control repair.  Although the city did purchase the land, it is under lease to Tinker AFB.

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## Pete

Boeing just got a $4.2 billion contract from the gov; SpaceX $2.6 billion.

This is for manned flight to the international space station and might not directly impact the operations in OKC, but it certainly can't hurt:

SpaceX, Boeing land NASA contracts for manned spaceflight - LA Times

----------


## soonerguru

> Boeing just got a $4.2 billion contract from the gov; SpaceX $2.6 billion.
> 
> This is for manned flight to the international space station and might not directly impact the operations in OKC, but it certainly can't hurt:
> 
> SpaceX, Boeing land NASA contracts for manned spaceflight - LA Times


Gosh. I hate to do this because my source is second-hand and not unimpeachable and this info could very well be wrong. So please don't hold it against me if it is not correct. HOWEVER, I heard today that OKC is getting this work and that Boeing will be adding 2,000 jobs in OKC! Unbelievable, I know, but if we even get a fraction of those jobs this would just be a tremendous boost to OKC. FINGERS CROSSED!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Gosh. I hate to do this because my source is second-hand and not unimpeachable and this info could very well be wrong. So please don't hold it against me if it is not correct. HOWEVER, I heard today that OKC is getting this work and that Boeing will be adding 2,000 jobs in OKC! Unbelievable, I know, but if we even get a fraction of those jobs this would just be a tremendous boost to OKC. FINGERS CROSSED!


You've got my hopes up now and I will be coming after you if it doesn't happen!

 :Wink:

----------


## Snowman

> Gosh. I hate to do this because my source is second-hand and not unimpeachable and this info could very well be wrong. So please don't hold it against me if it is not correct. HOWEVER, I heard today that OKC is getting this work and that Boeing will be adding 2,000 jobs in OKC! Unbelievable, I know, but if we even get a fraction of those jobs this would just be a tremendous boost to OKC. FINGERS CROSSED!


If we did get some they would probably have to be engineering or subsystems, since it has been anounced they will be constructing it in Florida at Cape Canveral. Though it is being done by Boeing Defense side which does have a lot of engineering work done here.

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## Teo9969

I'd happily take 10% of those jobs. If OKC gets 2,000 jobs, that would easily be the biggest story of the year…bigger than any tower announcement to be honest.

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## bhawes

> Gosh. I hate to do this because my source is second-hand and not unimpeachable and this info could very well be wrong. So please don't hold it against me if it is not correct. HOWEVER, I heard today that OKC is getting this work and that Boeing will be adding 2,000 jobs in OKC! Unbelievable, I know, but if we even get a fraction of those jobs this would just be a tremendous boost to OKC. FINGERS CROSSED!


This is true I take classes for my getting a masters degree with Webster University at Tinker. Our instructor works for Boeing and he told us that they will be building a new building off of Air Depot back gate  near there two building already in operations. The jobs will be engineering and IT jobs.

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## johnnyhooper

@okcchamber

Boeing to add up to 900 positions in Oklahoma City: Boeing to Consolidate Defense Services and Support Work in Oklahoma City and St. Louis

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## Dustin

Fantastic

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## Pete

Wow.

I'm having a hard time keeping track of the hundreds and hundreds of jobs being added at Tinker.

Is this completely separate from the other two recent announcements?  One had to do with acquiring the rail yard and the other involved another major expansion.

Aren't there three separate, very large new groups of jobs coming in the near future?

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## catch22

This sounds like backroom/office support (i.e. software, engineering, development) for the 1,500 or so mechanic jobs that will be coming to Tinker for the KC-46 Depot (the rail yard area).

Maintenance physically performs the work -- engineering and support design repairs, upgrades, etc that the mechanics go out and perform.

Often times, on airplanes, repairs are needed that are not in the maintenance/service manuals -- it's then passed along to engineering/support desks to fabricate a solution. These will be good high paying jobs. 

I can think of many times at WRWA mechanics waiting for engineers in Brazil (for example Embraer regional jets) to come up with practical solutions at 2AM their time, to get an aircraft back in to service. 

Since Tinker (the DOD/civilians) will be doing the KC-46 maintenance work, there's a good need to have support roles nearby. 

I may have misunderstood the article, but I am fairly certain these are support roles and not maintenance themselves. These would be in addition to the Tinker-DOD/civilian mechanic jobs coming to Tinker.

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## adaniel

> Gosh. I hate to do this because my source is second-hand and not unimpeachable and this info could very well be wrong. So please don't hold it against me if it is not correct. HOWEVER, I heard today that OKC is getting this work and that Boeing will be adding 2,000 jobs in OKC! Unbelievable, I know, but if we even get a fraction of those jobs this would just be a tremendous boost to OKC. FINGERS CROSSED!


For the record...your source is pretty damn good  :Smile:

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## Pete

At some point -- and I hope it's very far in the future -- we are going to look back on this time as the golden era of job creation in Oklahoma City.

We are getting into completely uncharted territory in terms of the local economy.  Seems like every month there is another big jobs announcement on top of the nation-leading lowest unemployment rate.

Let the good times roll!

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## soonerguru

I was told a couple of weeks ago that they will be hiring a lot of engineers. I wonder if this is the first of a couple of announcements; no settlement yet on the NASA jobs. 

900 jobs is very impressive, though. These are going to be high-paying jobs and we're going to get a lot of relocations from the Pacific Northwest.

I agree with Pete: Let the good times roll! 

However, I have a family member who worked for Boeing and one word of warning from him: Enjoy the fling but Boeing can be a "love 'em and leave 'em" company. So let's just enjoy having them here right now.

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## bchris02

High-paying job influx + low unemployment rate = brain gain.  This will be great for OKC.

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## HangryHippo

B Bailey's article says that up to 900 jobs *could* come to OKC. Is this actually a finalized deal with an announcement from Boeing forthcoming? Or is this Boeing fishing for a better deal from Washington while dangling Oklahoma out there as the one who may benefit if Washington doesn't offer what Boeing is after?

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## ljbab728

> B Bailey's article says that up to 900 jobs *could* come to OKC. Is this actually a finalized deal with an announcement from Boeing forthcoming? Or is this Boeing fishing for a better deal from Washington while dangling Oklahoma out there as the one who may benefit if Washington doesn't offer what Boeing is after?


The "could" is only in reference to the number of employees.  This quote from the article indicates it "will" happen.




> Boeing  will consolidate the majority of its defense services and support-related activities from Washington state to other locations in the U.S. as part of efforts to improve the competitiveness of its Boeing Defense, Space & Security unit.
> 
> The majority of the work will be relocated to Oklahoma City and St. Louis, where similar activities are performed today. Some additional work will be shifted to Jacksonville, Fla. and Patuxent River, Md. The transition could take up to three years to complete and affect about 2,000 employees. Once completed, approximately 900 positions could be added to Oklahoma City and potentially up to 500 positions to St. Louis.

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## HOT ROD

> Wow.
> 
> I'm having a hard time keeping track of the hundreds and hundreds of jobs being added at Tinker.
> 
> *Is this completely separate from the other two recent announcements?*  One had to do with acquiring the rail yard and the other involved another major expansion.
> 
> Aren't there three separate, very large new groups of jobs coming in the near future?


Pete, this IS separate - announced just today. This is in addition to the other announced jobs, which are still in the process of being completed. Good times for OKC indeed!

Boeing moving Washington jobs to Oklahoma City, St. Louis | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News

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## HOT ROD

Seattle Times Boeing plans 2,000 cuts in defense work here | Business & Technology | The Seattle Times which by they way is very detailed and complete. This is how a newspaper/media should be written/run IMO. .....

Originally published September 29, 2014 at  2:32 PM | Page modified September 29, 2014 at  7:08 PM     

*Boeing plans 2,000 cuts in defense work here*Boeing is moving a large part of its  defense engineering work out of the Puget Sound region, affecting 2,000 jobs mostly in Kent and Seattle.

By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter



Military is big business in state, but at what cost?Archives: Boeing sees big savings, others see big risks in job transfers (April 2014)Archvies: Boeing's Poseidon sub hunter for Navy brings commercial, defense sides together (May 2008


*Boeing job transfers out of Washington state*
Since spring of 2013, Boeing has announced the move of more than 6,300 white-collar jobs from the Puget Sound region. 
* March 2013:* Pilot training to Florida, 100 jobs 
*March 2013:* IT engineering to Missouri and South Carolina, 1,500 jobs 
*May 2013:* Out-of-production airplane support to California, 300 jobs 
*July 2013:* Airplane modifications and freighter conversions to California, 375 jobs 
*Sept. 2013:* Advanced Airplane Concepts to California, 60 jobs 
*Dec. 2013:* Boeing Research & Technology to Alabama, California, Missouri and South Carolina, 1,000 jobs 
*April 2014:* In-production airplane support to California, 1,000 jobs 
*Sept. 2014:* Defense engineering support to Oklahoma and St. Louis,  2,000 jobs.
_Source: Boeing, Seattle Times research_


Reader Comments
		Hide / Show comments	  





In the latest drain of  high-paying Boeing jobs out of Washington state, the jetmakers defense division  said Monday it will shift about 2,000 jobs,  mostly in engineering, out of the region by 2017.

 Some workers with critical skills will be offered  relocation to Oklahoma City, Okla., and St. Louis, Mo. Others may find local jobs at Boeings commercial jet unit. The number of layoffs wont be known until Boeing finds out how many people relocate, transfer or choose to leave.
The jetmaker currently employs a total of about 5,200 people in defense work here, so the moves will cut deeply into that total. 
Employees in Kent and Seattle will be most affected and will get details at an all-hands meeting scheduled for Tuesday morning.
Boeings plan will have little impact on the two major  Boeing defense programs based in the region, both built here using commercial jet airframes  the 767-based Air Force tanker and the 737-based P-8 anti-submarine jet.

However, most other defense work based here is moving. Oklahoma City  will gain about 900 jobs. St. Louis will gain about 500.
Chris Chadwick, chief executive officer of Boeings defense unit, said in a statement that the decision was difficult because it affects our employees, their families and their communities.

But he added, This is necessary if we are going to ... stay ahead of a rapidly changing global defense environment.
Ray Goforth, executive director of Boeings white-collar union, the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA), said the union warned state legislators last year to include job protections  with the $8.7 billion of  tax breaks passed to secure the building of the 777X in Washington.
He said that without any such protections, the company has been shifting  thousands of engineering jobs out of state since the legislation was passed.
Internally, management planning the defense job transfers out of Washington  had assigned the project a code name: Neptune. Neither  state nor union officials were informed of the plan before it became public Monday.

The work set to move out of state is done mostly by engineers who support military airplanes already in service. They oversee maintenance, modifications and upgrades to the avionics, weapons and sensor systems.

Engineering support for both the  older 707-based Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) jets and the updated 737-based Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) jets will begin shifting to Oklahoma City later this year, continuing through mid-2016.
Engineering support for the B-2 Stealth Bomber and the Air Launched Cruise Missile  will transition to Oklahoma City in 2015.
Support work for the F-22 Raptor jet fighter will move to St. Louis  beginning in 2015 and continuing through early 2017.
In addition,  a small number of jobs  supporting the U.S. Navy deployment of the P-8 will be shifted in 2015 to Navy facilities in Jacksonville, Fla. and Patuxent River, Md. 

Boeings  Oklahoma City operation has  expanded to about 1,800 employees today. That site focuses on engineering support for larger miltary airplanes, work that has migrated  there since 2012 from Wichita, Kan., and from southern California.

St. Louis, the headquarters of Boeings defense unit, employs about 14,500 people today but faces severe contraction as the aging F-15 and F/A-18 jet fighter programs approach their end, expected within a few years.

But even after the assembly lines there close, St. Louis will retain a core of engineers to support those jet fighters with maintenance, modfications and upgrades. Consolidating support there for the F-22  which is no longer produced  is therefore appropriate, said Peri Widener, Boeing vice president for integrated logistics.

The decision to move the AEW&C work is more surprising because new orders are still expected for those jets, which are used for airborne surveillance, communications and battle management. 

AEW&C jets have  been sold already to Australia, South Korea and Turkey. Earlier this year, Qatar announced another international order, not yet finalized, for three more  aircraft.

These jets start out as 737s, assembled in Renton, and then have large, military radar antennae added on top of the fuselage. Originally, these odd-looking radar systems were  fitted in Seattle and were a common sight at Boeing Field. 

 However, as part of work offsets to win contracts from foreign governments, Boeing has gradually been transfering the job of installing the military radars to the  countries buying the jets.
Where that end modification is done depends on customer expectations, said Scott Strode, vice president of maintenance, modification and upgrades. Weve built Korean aircraft in Korea, Australian modifications have been done in Australia, and Turkish modifications in Turkey.
Strode said moving the engineering support to Oklahoma City makes sense because some AWACS work is already done there today.
Still, he acknowledged that the skills and abilities of our workforce here (in Washington) are tremendous and conceded theres a risk of losing valuable talent.

SPEEA spokesman Bill Dugovich said Boeing told the union that last year when it announced the move of 1,000 commercial jet support jobs to Southern California, the company offered relocation to just 15 percent of the affected employees. Only 5 percent accepted relocation.
There will be critical skills well look at relocating, Strode said. There also will be opportunities for displaced employees to transfer locally, either to commercial jet work or to the Air Force tanker program.
There may be some layoffs, he conceded. We dont know what kind of a number that will be.
Boeing  will offer job search resources, retirement seminars, and career counseling services, the company said.
The average salary for the affected Boeing engineers and technical staff is $93,000, with senior engineers earning much more, according to SPEEA data.
Boeings Chadwick, in his statement outlining the jobs exodus, said that even with the announced moves, Boeing .... continues a robust presence in the Puget Sound region. 

We are committed to the long-term success of Boeing in Puget Sound, he said. 
Engineering and assembly of the Air Force refueling tanker  will stay at the widebody jet plant in Everett.
The Navys anti-submarine plane, the P-8, will continue to be assembled in Renton and have its military systems installed at a facility beside Boeing Field in Seattle.

Coincidentally, last week  Washington state announced a $4.3 million federal grant from the Department of Defense to help prepare  for the impacts of expected U.S. military downsizing and budget cuts in the state.
Alex Pietsch, director of Gov. Jay Inslees aerospace office, said state officials are focused on this transition in the U.S. military and working our hardest to mitigate it.

He said hes disappointed at the Boeing news but still optimistic about continuing expected growth in the commercial jet side of Boeings business. 
These new  defense-side cuts come on top of a series of engineering work transfers out of Washington state that Boeing announced over the past 18 months within its Commercial Airplanes and corporate research divisions.

*Those previous announcements had already targeted the  shifting of more than 4,300 engineering jobs out of the region*.
Boeing still employs nearly 82,000 people in Washington state, though that figure has declined since the beginning of 2013 by nearly 6 percent or just over 4,600 jobs  with some of the previously announced cuts still working through the system.

_Dominic Gates: (206) 464-2963 or dgates@seattletimes.com_

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## HOT ROD

pay attention to the average salary! 

ie. $93,000.00. Even if OKC takes a 15% cut, that is still an $80,000 job, X 900. HUGE $8M annual salary boost for OKC.

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## soonerguru

That is an extremely detailed story written by someone who has deep contacts within Boeing and a solid knowledge of the industry.

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## Plutonic Panda

Boeing Formally Announces Decision To Move Defense Services To O - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

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## Plutonic Panda

Boeing to Consolidate Defense Services and Support Work in Oklahoma City and St. Louis

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## ljbab728

> Boeing to Consolidate Defense Services and Support Work in Oklahoma City and St. Louis


Plupan,  that article is a couple of days old.  Is there something new there that we don't already know?

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## Plutonic Panda

> Plupan,  that article is a couple of days old.  Is there something new there that we don't already know?


I reaffirms that we know what know, and that is exactly what we know. I know you know because you let me know that you know.

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## ljbab728

> I reaffirms that we know what know, and that is exactly what we know. I know you know because you let me know that you know.


I don't know about that.

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## OkieNate

Only a matter of time until we have the Oklahoma City Prairie Hawks  :Smiley122:  #EvilLaugh

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## Pete

Adding fuel to the Boeing new space venture that also includes Space X, So Fine bar tweeted a photo of Elon Musk (CEO of Space X and Tesla Motors) inside their establishment.

This was on Oct. 10th.

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## catch22

Elon Musk was in OKC?


Wow

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## Pete

> Elon Musk was in OKC?
> 
> 
> Wow


And very quietly, too.

That just adds to the intrigue.

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## warreng88

I can see it now: SpaceXOKC... We have the land for it.

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## catch22

It could also be due to our electric wind power?

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## Pete

> It could also be due to our electric wind power?


If so, why so hush-hush?

Believe me, all the various boosters of OKC and the state would have been promoting his presence unless there was something happening on the down-low.

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## DoctorTaco

> If so, why so hush-hush?
> 
> Believe me, all the various boosters of OKC and the state would have been promoting his presence unless there was something happening on the down-low.


https://twitter.com/sofineOKC/status...386050/photo/1

I doubt that is really Musk. You can't really see him in the pic, but thinking just a dude who the owner of So Fine noticed looks like Musk. Musk had his huge Tesla D announcement the day previous. And while he has a private jet and can get places in a hurry, I'm thinking on the 10th he was still doing Tesla D press and not scooting off to OKC for top secret bizness.

Hope I'm wrong, but I am really doubtful that is Musk.

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## Pete

Trying to confirm with the owner that was actually him.

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## Questor

He was on stage at a futurist event in SF on Wednesday evening. Thursday evening he was on stage at the model D unveil event in LA until very late. Friday the 10th he was featured in an uncountable number of interviews with various news organizations throughout the day. I suppose they could have been recorded....

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## Pete

I confirmed with the owner of So Fine that was NOT Elon Musk -- just a look-a-like.

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## Plutonic Panda

Passenger jets push Boeing's profit up 18 percent - Tulsa World: Aerospace

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## mimino

> pay attention to the average salary! 
> 
> ie. $93,000.00. Even if OKC takes a 15% cut, that is still an $80,000 job, X 900. HUGE $8M annual salary boost for OKC.


Late to the party, but just wanted to say that this is a very, very optimistic assessment. Why do you think they are "bringing" the jobs here?

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## Zorba

> Late to the party, but just wanted to say that this is a very, very optimistic assessment. Why do you think they are "bringing" the jobs here?


The jobs are mostly engineering positions and the salaries aren't that much different from OKC to Seattle, about 20%. The real reason they are being moved is an attempt to destroy SPEEA and the pension it guarantees their members, same reason they shut down Wichita.

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## mimino

> The jobs are mostly engineering positions and the salaries aren't that much different from OKC to Seattle, about 20%. The real reason they are being moved is an attempt to destroy SPEEA and the pension it guarantees their members, same reason they shut down Wichita.


Yup, business realities. So while we rejoice and celebrate, some people some where are getting shafted.

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## hoya

> Yup, business realities. So while we rejoice and celebrate, some people some where are getting shafted.


Perhaps things will be better if you wring your hands in despair and curse the gods.

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## mimino

> Perhaps things will be better if you wring your hands in despair and curse the gods.


Perhaps. Are you speaking from the point of your own experience?

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## HOT ROD

mimino. I'm looking at it from an OKC economic and population growth prospective and not at the wholistic impact to the nation or company. 

Boeing's move to OKC is a good thing for OKC's growth, regardless of the actual impact of salaries for the roles being transferred - which will still be high-income salaries compared to what OKC offered before (just perhaps not quite Seattle rate/benefits as has been suggested).

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## SoonerDave

> The jobs are mostly engineering positions and the salaries aren't that much different from OKC to Seattle, about 20%. The real reason they are being moved is an* attempt to destroy SPEEA* and the pension it guarantees their members, *same reason they shut down Wichita*.


You should not speak of things about which you are so very obviously ignorant.

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## HangryHippo

> You should not speak of things about which you are so very obviously ignorant.


Dave, could you enlighten us as to why you think Zorba is ignorant?

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## Zorba

> You should not speak of things about which you are so very obviously ignorant.


So there has not been a major push to move engineers out of the Puget Sound area since the last SPEEA strike? SPEEA represented employees are one of the only employee groups that will not have their pensions frozen in 2016.  (About 4000 engineers have been moved out since 2013, I think about 6000-7000 since the last strike.)

I'll bet $100 the next SPEEA negotiations will include job protections in exchange for freezing the pensions. But it is hard to get people excited about job protections until you make them bleed a little bit. 

Don't get me wrong, I am glad the jobs are coming. It'll be great for OKC and the local engineering community. Also my original post was explaining the jobs aren't being moved to slash salaries, more to shed SPEEA.

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## zookeeper

Sounds like a no-brainer to me. SPEEA Website They want to beat back the law that would keep them in Washington to fulfill all of their tax breaks, incentives, etc. 

Modern day union busting that couldn't be more blatant. I think Zorba said it well.

SoonerDave, What about this doesn't make it clear as a bell to you?

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## CuatrodeMayo

If the tax breaks that Oklahoma gives energy companies makes you ill, you would die from what Washington gives to Boeing...

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## mimino

> A lawmaker says she will introduce a bill that could reduce Boeing's multibillion dollar tax break if the company trims its overall Washington state workforce.


Bill would cut Boeing tax breaks over workforce reductions - Local News | MyNorthwest.com




> Unions representing Machinists and engineers, among others, said the state was too generous when it extended tax breaks to the aerospace giant in 2013 to secure the 777X program in Everett. Those tax breaks could save as much as $8.7 billion in taxes through 2040, yet it has shipped some jobs out of state.





> Boeing announced it was moving 3,000 jobs out of state within weeks of passing the package.

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## BoulderSooner

And if Washington lost the 777 project it would cost the state thousands of jobs and billions of dollars and likey would eventually cost Seattle all of Boeing

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## gopokes88

Honest question, 

Is our passage of right to work legislation helping us with Boeing? Particularly with what seems like the constant relocation of employees from Seattle to okc. My ideology and basic business sense says yes but I am admittedly somewhat ignorant and haven't studied it too much. I just see people slamming it all the time but results seem to indicate the contrary.

----------


## Zorba

> Honest question, 
> 
> Is our passage of right to work legislation helping us with Boeing? Particularly with what seems like the constant relocation of employees from Seattle to okc. My ideology and basic business sense says yes but I am admittedly somewhat ignorant and haven't studied it too much. I just see people slamming it all the time but results seem to indicate the contrary.


This is the first major round of jobs from the Seattle area. The last two major relocation have been from Southern Cal and Wichita, with the majority from Wichita. Kansas is also right to work, so that by itself isn't any different. But Wichita had the IEM for mechanics and SPEEA for the engineers. Since OKC engineering has never been union, moving the engineers to OKC from Wichita (and now Seattle) allows them to shed the engineering union. Unless, of course, the engineers in OKC vote to unionize (doubtful in today's culture). The mechanics for the most part didn't move to OKC, so no IEM issues in OKC. 

SPEEA held a few meetings in OKC, right before the most recent move announcements. As far as I know nothing has really come out of it. But information I have seen shows that Boeing OKC leadership is at least a little worried about SPEEA coming in.

I don't believe Long Beach had an engineers' union, so union busting had nothing to do with that move. That move allowed for co-location with the customer and lower operating costs in OKC over Southern Cal.  Boeing had been moving stuff out of SoCal for years, but in the last couple years has started moving engineers from Seattle to SoCal in moves that make no sense to anyone, except to bust SPEEA.

Anyways, if we didn't have right to work, I doubt the work would've come, since Boeing has been shifting a lot of work to non-union friendly states recently, except for the recent moves to SoCal.

----------


## Snowman

> Honest question, 
> 
> Is our passage of right to work legislation helping us with Boeing? Particularly with what seems like the constant relocation of employees from Seattle to okc. My ideology and basic business sense says yes but I am admittedly somewhat ignorant and haven't studied it too much. I just see people slamming it all the time but results seem to indicate the contrary.


Even if it is helping, it is not likely to be able to get a reliable metric on how much it really played into the decision with all the other factors being weighed, along with there are several other states with similar legislation and other generally low cost of business stats. Sometimes companies will tell you it was in their reasoning but what they say should also be taken with a grain of salt, on top of that there is little assurance it  would matter as much to the next employer considering moving/staying.

----------


## mimino

> And if Washington lost the 777 project it would cost the state thousands of jobs and billions of dollars and likey would eventually cost Seattle all of Boeing


That's a pretty bold statement. 

Tinker already had a piece of local work, and it made sense to move the rest here, besides the point about the unions. We can look at the current events as generally positive, but let's not delude ourselves as to why these decisions are being made. If a different location becomes cheaper and makes more business sense, then we're coming to ya. Work diversification in our state is a good thing, however. We can't keep relying on O&G (though they will remain the fluffers) for stability, especially  in the current environment.

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## zookeeper

To piggyback on Zorba's post, the big change in a move to a "right-to-work" state is that that organized labor have no laws behind it to make the playing field level. It's all management, all the time, with at-will ability to fire a worker for any reason (federal laws kick in during a union organizing drive and nobody can technically be fired for supporting a union - but in a RTW state, they'll fire you anyway because pick-a-reason). A union can still organize in a RTW state like Oklahoma, but if the union gets the sigs for an election, and said union wins the election and begins bargaining with management for a contract, _not all laborers have to pay dues_. With RTW that is comically _optional_, which makes a mockery of industrial-workplace democracy where workers organize and if they win - then everybody joins, (or at least pay dues), because the laws require the elected union representation to offer benefits, contract assistance, etc, to_ everybody_ - dues-paying member or not. That may have been the longest sentence I've ever written, but it's 4:00 in the morning and too tired to go back and edit. I hope that helps make some sense as to why RTW is like a magnet for companies who want the ability to do as they please without having to sit across a table with management on one side and labor (organized being the key) on the other representing a united labor force.

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## Bellaboo

I'd rather have RTW and have a company located here, than no company at all.

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## Pete

OKCTalk - Boeing looking to expand once again

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## hoya

> I'd rather have RTW and have a company located here, than no company at all.


Exactly.  There's a balancing act between being business friendly and worker friendly.  You don't want to go too far one way or the other.  If you're too business friendly, you get Upton Sinclair's _The Jungle_.  If you're too worker friendly you get no jobs.  Right now Oklahoma City is trying to attract a lot of outside industry.  It's very beneficial for us that Boeing is moving so many jobs here.  You can debate whether right to work was a good decision for the state, but given the fact that that passed like 20 years ago, it's not a Boeing-specific issue.

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## Jersey Boss

> Honest question, 
> 
> Is our passage of right to work legislation helping us with Boeing? Particularly with what seems like the constant relocation of employees from Seattle to okc. My ideology and basic business sense says yes but I am admittedly somewhat ignorant and haven't studied it too much. I just see people slamming it all the time but results seem to indicate the contrary.


I think it is a mixed bag and have not seen any data comparing "before" and "after" as relating to Oklahoma. I do know that RTW did nothing for the employees in Stillwater working for Mercury Marine  when Mercury closed shop here and transferred that work to a non RTW state(Wisconsin).

----------


## OKCisOK4me

There was a BNSF Officer Train spotted yesterday going down the GM Plant spur. Does anyone think it might have to do with Boeing since the BNSF yard is caddy corner to where their buildings are? Will the future expansion have a new spur line built to it?

----------


## Zorba

> There was a BNSF Officer Train spotted yesterday going down the GM Plant spur. Does anyone think it might have to do with Boeing since the BNSF yard is caddy corner to where their buildings are? Will the future expansion have a new spur line built to it?


I seriously doubt it. At least at the moment there have been no announcements for any type of manufacturing to come to OKC. All the announced programs are engineering services programs.  I did notice they were doing some work on the track at the Sooner Road crossing this afternoon. 

It would be awesome if OKC ever got light rail if they extended the line out to Tinker and the SW corner to hit all the aerospace companies and the GE Oil and Gas.  I have a feeling that is a long way into the future, though.

----------


## Snowman

> There was a BNSF Officer Train spotted yesterday going down the GM Plant spur. Does anyone think it might have to do with Boeing since the BNSF yard is caddy corner to where their buildings are? Will the future expansion have a new spur line built to it?


If they are looking at anything to do with the spur it is probably just the removal process of the rail yard near Tinker, since the railroad just sold the rail yard to the Air Force to  build a new repair center for the upcoming KC-46A program. I guess it would be Boeing related since that is a modified 767 to be a fuel tanker.

They did use the yard for storing rail cars at times, so they might be looking at places they could relocate some/all the track to replace capacity lost, I would not be surprised if between the land fill and interstate is a cheap option, though it seems like most of the newer rail sidings have been east of i35 between Reno and 16th. Another option is the yard near the boathouses, since it looks like they have more room for operations than is currently there and I think it is owned by the same company.

----------


## bombermwc

I'm all for RTW. I'm in support of unions under certain circumstances, but we've seen a lot of them put themselves out of business because they want to be overcompensated for what they do. We've been down this road here before with the GM discussions. Unions have done great things, 40 hour work week, no child labor, workplace safety, etc. Unions have done stupid things like thinking an assembly line work with a job that is far less specialized than they would like you to think should earn 50K+ a year in OK with an amazing benefits package. You want to have a Union, great. But don't force me into it. I'll decide if I want to pay into it or not. But i'll also say that if I'm not part of the Union, I don't deserve to be given the benefits they negotiate. But the Union should also not force the company to reduce non-member benefits just because they aren't part of it (which is partly why benefits are forced to all employees). If you're doing your job as a union, you're going to persuade me to join very easily. If not, then forget it.

Boeing has been very clear about their reasons for being here. Unions are part of it. They just about moved the entire assembly of a model out of WA for that very reason. I believe it was N. Carolina or something?? Labor here is cheaper (cost of living is cheaper), we've got a good pool of engineering talent (far more than OKC had 20 years ago), the quality of life has improved here over what it was 20 years ago, and for the programs these engineers are servicing, their maintenance depot is NEXT DOOR! When some of these employees were still in Wichita, the engineers would take trips to the new hanger facility on Douglas....and then most of them ended up moving here (some friends of ours that were from OKC had moved to Wichita to work for Boeing there, and then moved back as part of this group...talk about coming home!). Boeing is next door to a couple of other big names in that same corner of 59th/Air Depot, but none to that size. And remember, when Boeing built the 2 story building, it helped consolidate employees from on and off base to a single place, which is something they haven't been able to do in who knows how long. But I'm sure that the land purchase was made with the idea of the upcoming decision already in the works  :Smile: 

But like someone else said, lets not get too full of our britches here. If another state was able to offer the same things at a reduced price, Boeing (and any other company) would take it.

----------


## bombermwc

for some reason it double posted, so I removed the duplicate. Its doing weird stuff today.

----------


## SoonerDave

I have been out of pocket and not on the forum much.  I will be glad to elaborate on this nonsense later today.

----------


## bradh

zookeeper, I can assure you that a lot of large companies even in a RTW state won't/don't fire someone just because they can.  Most large companies require management to keep very detailed records and documentation of previous issues before firing someone, for fear of suit.

----------


## mimino

> OKCTalk - Boeing looking to expand once again


I couldn't help but notice the street name was "SW" instead of East lol

----------


## Pete

OKCTalk - Paycom and Boeing to add a combined 1,323 new jobs over the next 3 years

----------


## adaniel

Great news! 

Family friend works for Boeing in STL and he has heard whispers that it's only a matter of time before Boeing-Defense Unit is completely out of Washington State. So I hope leaders here have their ear to the ground on what will be likely more job shifts.

----------


## traxx

> Great news! 
> 
> Family friend works for Boeing in STL and he has heard whispers that it's only a matter of time before Boeing-Defense Unit is completely out of Washington State. So I hope leaders here have their ear to the ground on what will be likely more job shifts.


I'm not saying he's not telling the truth, but how does a guy in St. Louis know what's going on in Washington State? I hope there's more jobs coming here, but I just don't want to get hopes up of more high paying jobs here.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm not saying he's not telling the truth, but how does a guy in St. Louis know what's going on in Washington State? I hope there's more jobs coming here, but I just don't want to get hopes up of more high paying jobs here.


There has been an exodus from Washington state for awhile now of Boeing jobs. Some have gone to California and now some are coming here. IIRC.

----------


## adaniel

Boeing's Defense Unit HQ is actually in St Louis. So they are usually the first to know what moves the company will make on that side of the business. 

I'm not trying to start a rumor, just relaying what I heard from someone who's in the know. I also should point out its no guarantee they will move all jobs to OKC if at all.

----------


## gopokes88

> There has been an exodus from Washington state for awhile now of Boeing jobs. Some have gone to California and now some are coming here. IIRC.


Don't forget South Carolina. Right-to-work legislation is helping our 2 states. Boeing is very tired of the unions in Washington. 

Union cancels Boeing vote, claiming gun-toting workers told it to take off | Fox News

----------


## traxx

> Boeing's Defense Unit HQ is actually in St Louis. So they are usually the first to know what moves the company will make on that side of the business. 
> 
> I'm not trying to start a rumor, just relaying what I heard from someone who's in the know. I also should point out its no guarantee they will move all jobs to OKC if at all.


Ah, I see the connection now.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Boeing's Defense Unit HQ is actually in St Louis. So they are usually the first to know what moves the company will make on that side of the business. 
> 
> I'm not trying to start a rumor, just relaying what I heard from someone who's in the know. I also should point out its no guarantee they will move all jobs to OKC if at all.


South Carolina has been a big gainer from these Boeing relocations.

How happy is Boeing Defense in St. Louis?

----------


## adaniel

> South Carolina has been a big gainer from these Boeing relocations.
> 
> How happy is Boeing Defense in St. Louis?


I'd say they're pretty happy. They received some jobs from Washington State as well and have several thousand employees up there, in excess of 14K I believe. A good deal of actual manufacturing occurs at their plant up there, whereas OKC facilities are more R&D/white collar. And that facility does a lot of international work whereas OKC is much more dependent on what the US DoD asks for (which is a bit risky if you ask me). 

I believe the SC jobs are more related to the 777 Dreamliner commercial planes. I know Tulsa fought hard for that facility but ultimately lost. 

If you want to know how I know this, my buddy came down to Dallas a few weeks ago and I learned way more about Boeing and the defense industry than I ever wanted to know lol.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I'd say they're pretty happy. They received some jobs from Washington State as well and have several thousand employees up there, in excess of 14K I believe. A good deal of actual manufacturing occurs at their plant up there, whereas OKC facilities are more R&D/white collar. And that facility does a lot of international work whereas OKC is much more dependent on what the US DoD asks for (which is a bit risky if you ask me). 
> 
> I believe the SC jobs are more related to the 777 Dreamliner commercial planes. I know Tulsa fought hard for that facility but ultimately lost. 
> 
> If you want to know how I know this, my buddy came down to Dallas a few weeks ago and I learned way more about Boeing and the defense industry than I ever wanted to know lol.


I share your sentiment that it's risky for OKC to be so dependent on the DoD.  I hope officials are working to try and lure some manufacturing from Boeing or some of their international work to try and get us some balance in case (when) the DoD's fiscal situation goes to ****e, but it sounds like SC and St. Louis and Washington will retain those jobs.

----------


## no1cub17

> I'd say they're pretty happy. They received some jobs from Washington State as well and have several thousand employees up there, in excess of 14K I believe. A good deal of actual manufacturing occurs at their plant up there, whereas OKC facilities are more R&D/white collar. And that facility does a lot of international work whereas OKC is much more dependent on what the US DoD asks for (which is a bit risky if you ask me). 
> 
> I believe the SC jobs are more related to the 777 Dreamliner commercial planes. I know Tulsa fought hard for that facility but ultimately lost. 
> 
> If you want to know how I know this, my buddy came down to Dallas a few weeks ago and I learned way more about Boeing and the defense industry than I ever wanted to know lol.


787 Dreamliner! Not 777 :-D Although the 777 is a heckuva plane itself :-D

----------


## adaniel

^
I knew that didn't sound right  :Smile:

----------


## zookeeper

> I'd say they're pretty happy. They received some jobs from Washington State as well and have several thousand employees up there, in excess of 14K I believe. A good deal of actual manufacturing occurs at their plant up there, whereas OKC facilities are more R&D/white collar.And that facility does a lot of international work* whereas OKC is much more dependent on what the US DoD asks for (which is a bit risky if you ask me).* 
> 
> I believe the SC jobs are more related to the 777 Dreamliner commercial planes. I know Tulsa fought hard for that facility but ultimately lost. 
> 
> If you want to know how I know this, my buddy came down to Dallas a few weeks ago and I learned way more about Boeing and the defense industry than I ever wanted to know lol.


You're correct about the DoD/Boeing connection in Oklahoma City. Of course, Oklahoma has Jim Inhofe in Washington who has voted more than a few times for weapons systems that the Pentagon said they didn't even want. He's always there with his vote for the defense _industry_ (completely different than a vote for what's best for the defense of the country).

----------


## soonerguru

> Don't forget South Carolina. Right-to-work legislation is helping our 2 states. Boeing is very tired of the unions in Washington. 
> 
> Union cancels Boeing vote, claiming gun-toting workers told it to take off | Fox News


Aren't the workers here unionized too? Regardless, Boeing has like 80,000 employees in the State of Washington, so you might want to tap the brakes on this "mass exodus to two right-to-work states" theory, Mr. Republican Ideology promoter. And Boeing moved its corporate HQ to Chicago, too, which is hardly a "right to work" mecca.

 :Wink:

----------


## HOT ROD

You're also right about Saint Louis being the HQ for Boeing Defense and Space and that Boeing is cutting these jobs out of Puget Sound. You're also right about Charleston SC being a Commercial factory that has assembly lines for the 787. All assembly lines for the 777, 747 (soon to be axed, by the way), 767 (also going away, sooner than 747), and 737 are in Puget sound (with the single-aisle 737 in Renton and all of the widebodies in Everett, WA). Everett also has the 'main/primary' final assembly lines for 787 but this has been a MAJOR contention with the State as Charleston has seen huge expansions (as it was originally only supposed to have just one line, now has multiples and even body work that WA does NOT have). ... I know about this not only because I live in Seattle but also I used to work for Boeing (often traveled to Saint Louis and even started as an engineer back in the 1990s for 747, and helped design the Everett 787 final assy lines before moving into Finance and then out of Boeing for good).

Yes, OKC is firmly on the radar of Boeing - I wouldn't be surprised at ALL to hear more and more jobs going to OKC. It is very interesting that all of the jobs are white collar (very little blue and all of it being existing programme support at TIK). These white collar jobs tend to be a little more stable than the ordinary DoD based blue collar assembly roles since an engineer can move from program to program or move into R&D quite easily, blue collar/machinists are always the first to go in layoffs regardless if it is Commercial Airplanes or Defense/Space.

Final interesting note you all may not know/realize, even though Engineering and Science jobs are white collar - in WA state they are UNIONIZED. YES, there is a white collar Union known as SPEEA which Boeing has to battle in WA state just like it has to with the blue collar union IAM. IAM is much larger but SPEEA has increased its profile quite a bit since 2001 and more or less forces engineers/scientists to join or at least pay dues for representation. I was not a fan of this hence my transition into Corporate Finance after I got my MBA in 2004. But now that you know this bit of info - you see how it is INTERSTING that the white collar defense jobs are going to OKC and I wont be surprised if ALL of them do not eventually come to this soon to be sprawling Boeing campus. OKC will never allow SPEEA organization! Blue collar in STL and Long Beach, White Collar in OKC - makes total sense.

Final interesting thought is the avg salaries for the OKC jobs; 90K. I believe that might actually be higher than the SPEEA Washington averages for Engineers (at least that was the case years ago). Boeing is not going cheap in OKC, they're bringing/expanding with high paying jobs likely higher than entry level SPEEA (at least) yet still likely saving money if nothing else co-locating all of them in OKC. I think this speaks volumes not only to Boeing's commitment to OKC that likely will see more jobs (I think eventually 10K or so) but it also speaks to OKC's profile and that OKC's incentives - even as small as they are in the grand scheme of things - do indeed pay off big-time.

Now if only OKC could get some Commercial work along with this and become the new Seattle (Boeing prospective). .....

----------


## hoya

> You're correct about the DoD/Boeing connection in Oklahoma City. Of course, Oklahoma has Jim Inhofe in Washington who has voted more than a few times for weapons systems that the Pentagon said they didn't even want. He's always there with his vote for the defense _industry_ (completely different than a vote for what's best for the defense of the country).


While I'm against this as an American, as an Oklahoman it's great.  Inhofe knows how to play the political game, and by supporting the defense industry in other states, the Senators there will support Tinker.  It's politics, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours.

----------


## Dubya61

> While I'm against this as an American, as an Oklahoman it's great.  Inhofe knows how to play the political game, and buy supporting the defense industry in other states, the Senators there will support Tinker.  It's politics, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours.


If only the short term matters, then Inhofe is doing GREAT things for Oklahoma.  If, on the other hand, the only reason Tinker and others (and Boeing) are here is because of a good politician, heaven help us when he leaves.  (No disrespect to Matt Silverstein, for whom I voted.)

----------


## ljbab728

This is a very interesting article from the Seattle Times about Boeing with numerous references to OKC.

Oklahoma City is our savvier nemesis | The Seattle Times

----------


## gopokes88

> This is a very interesting article from the Seattle Times about Boeing with numerous references to OKC.
> 
> Oklahoma City is our savvier nemesis | The Seattle Times


I like the comment that says Okc doesn't have water. I dk who eric_okc is but that guy needs to move.

----------


## HOT ROD

Seattle doesn't have much water either, this year.

----------


## gopokes88

> Seattle doesn't have much water either, this year.


And they never have much sunshine either. And I love sunshine. That instantly makes seattle a place I couldn't ever live.

----------


## Zorba

> Snip


Just a few corrections. While the 767 will probably not keep getting commercial sales for much longer, the line will be open for a long time to come producing 767-2C's, which is the base model of the KC-46 (conversion from 767-2C to KC-46 will also occur in Everett). 

The jobs being moved to Long Beach are also white collar jobs. They are moving all of the commercial customer support organization down there. From my understanding they offered very few of the existing people positions in Long Beach, as well. 

SPEEA has held meeting in OKC, but so far there has not been any official campaign/petition.  The jobs moving to OKC will have lower pay/benefits than the positions did in Seattle. The pay is because Boeing adjusts pay for local conditions. The cut in benefits is because SPEEA gets better benefits (like a pension) than non-SPEEA employees. Since the groups in Seattle are older, there will also likely be a suppression in levels during the move to OKC, meaning instead of group having 2-5s, 6-4s, 4-3s, it might go to 1-4, 3-3s, 3-2s, 5-1s.  Level adjustment has happened on all the other moves to OKC. 

As far as manufacturing in OKC, I really don't see it happening any time soon, except maybe a small emergent need spares shop. Boeing has outsourced the vast majority of its part manufacturing. Production on the F-18 and F-15 will be coming to an end soon, the C-17 is about to go out of production as well. Any other military manufacturing will likely be shifted back to St Louis to keep their shops open as the F-15 and F-18 taper down. As of right now, OKC is also only a sustainment organization supporting existing and mostly out-of-production products, which will hurt its ability to get manufacturing work unless that paradigm changes.

EDIT: BTW: All the overhaul and STC work Wichita has was moved to San Antonio, this would be the most likely work to move back to OKC if they ever did move blue collar here.  Jobs have also flowed into Seattle as well. The KC-46 design and conversion work was supposed to all be done in Wichita, until Boeing own the contract and pretty much overnight moved all that work from Wichita to Everett.

----------


## HangryHippo

> As far as manufacturing in OKC, I really don't see it happening any time soon, except maybe a small emergent need spares shop. Boeing has outsourced the vast majority of its part manufacturing. Production on the F-18 and F-15 will be coming to an end soon, the C-17 is about to go out of production as well. Any other military manufacturing will likely be shifted back to St Louis to keep their shops open as the F-15 and F-18 taper down. As of right now, OKC is also only a sustainment organization supporting existing and mostly out-of-production products, which will hurt its ability to get manufacturing work unless that paradigm changes.


Outside of Everett, Charleston, St. Louis, and San Antonio, where does Boeing currently have major manufacturing facilities?

----------


## LakeEffect

> Not a bit true. We have lots of sunshine.


The few times I've been to Seattle, I've never seen rain. Made me sad.  :Smile:

----------


## Zorba

> Outside of Everett, Charleston, St. Louis, and San Antonio, where does Boeing currently have major manufacturing facilities?


Currently Long Beach, but I suspect that will mostly shut down after the C-17 production ends this year. There is still space manufacturing somewhere, I think it is a little spread out some in Cali, some in Puget Sound, not sure where else. The helicopter division manufactures in Philadelphia, not sure if they have any other feeder sites. 

Of course Wichita used to be a huge manufacturing site, but they sold off the commercial side to Spirit and moved the military side. 

Boeing suppliers are all over the place. It is possible as Boeing OKC grows, OKC will get some rub off suppliers as well, especially things like test houses.

----------


## gopokes88

> Not a bit true. We have lots of sunshine.


Yes, true. 226 days of cloud cover is a lot of clouds. 
OKC has 251 days of sunshine and I grew up in a city that gets over 300 days of sunshine. You can argue and pretend like Seattle gets lots of sunshine, but it really doesn't, especially compared to the SW. I will never move there. My body is too programmed to enjoy the sunshine, hell I get pretty grouchy after like 3 days of heavy clouds. You're programed to love urban and walk-ability, I'm programmed to want it to be sunny, always.

----------


## hoya

> Not a bit true. We have lots of sunshine.


Those are clouds, Sid.  That's what you have.  The sun is the big yellow thing in the sky.

 :Wink:

----------


## mimino

> Currently Long Beach, but I suspect that will mostly shut down after the C-17 production ends this year. There is still space manufacturing somewhere, I think it is a little spread out some in Cali, some in Puget Sound, not sure where else. The helicopter division manufactures in Philadelphia, not sure if they have any other feeder sites. 
> 
> Of course Wichita used to be a huge manufacturing site, but they sold off the commercial side to Spirit and moved the military side. 
> 
> Boeing suppliers are all over the place. It is possible as Boeing OKC grows, OKC will get some rub off suppliers as well, especially things like test houses.


When do you think they'll start moving C-17 Sustainment down here?

----------


## Rover

OKC has 42% more sunshine hours per year than Seattle.

----------


## Zorba

> When do you think they'll start moving C-17 Sustainment down here?


I only know what is officially announced, which is 50 C-17 jobs will be moved here over the next 18 months.  IIRC, they were all simulation related so they probably won't come until the new building is done. We'll have to wait and see if any more C-17 jobs come here, my bet is they will, probably starting late 2016 through 2017. C-17 is a little bit of an odd fit for OKC, since they are not worked at Tinker, but it is widely speculated that all the sustainment will be moved to OKC anyways. My guess is that it would be around 300-500 new jobs here.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> Not a bit true. We have lots of sunshine.


Just finished my first year here. The commentary regarding rain, clouds, and sunshine is quite overblown.

----------


## Zorba

> Just finished my first year here. The commentary regarding rain, clouds, and sunshine is quite overblown.


Yeah, I've been up there a few times recently, man it is nice there.  Although I have been told by everyone up there (and the data backs this up) that this is an unusual year weatherwise up there.

----------


## bradh

We were there three years ago, and it was sunny and 78 for the week, and all the locals were loving it saying they had to appreciate it while it was there.  Apparently the last two years have been the same, which must be wildly different from the decades before 2012

----------


## OU Adonis

I lived there for a short time.  In the summer it was nice, but the other 3 seasons not so much.  Didn't stay there long though.

----------


## Motley

OKC has a lot of sunny days - 68%.  Seattle is near the bottom - 47%.   I lived in the Portland area for a few years.  Summers are awesome beyond belief.  Winters are gray, gloomy, and rainy.

Average Annual Sunshine in US Cities - Current Results

----------


## Rover

> We were there three years ago, and it was sunny and 78 for the week, and all the locals were loving it saying they had to appreciate it while it was there.  Apparently the last two years have been the same, which must be wildly different from the decades before 2012


A couple of summers ago (or so), I was there and it was clear and 105 (a record) and over 100 for 4 days while I was there.  But, it isn't typical.  They have some GREAT days in summer, but as has been pointed out, gray and gloomy many days of fall and winter, and even spring.

----------


## Pete

Because it's coastal, people forget how far north Seattle is.  It's about the same latitude as Fargo, North Dakota.

Which means the days are extremely long in the summer but crazy short in the winter months.  I've never liked that trade off;  it makes even the late fall and early spring days very short on daylight.

It's a beautiful but I used to go for work quite a bit and never warmed up to the place.  I've always wanted to like it much more than I do; same with Portland.  And statistics aside, the huge percentage of the time I've spent in both places has been in exceptionally dreary conditions.

Say what you will about Oklahoma but the skies do not tend to stay cloudy for very long.  Storms blow through and then the sun shines.

----------


## Urbanized

...except for this week and last LOL

----------


## Chicken In The Rough

Boeing Expands Oklahoma City Facility, Business Presence - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

----------


## Bellaboo

> Boeing Expands Oklahoma City Facility, Business Presence - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |


Big news in this story  -   'In addition, Boeing Global Services & Support unit President Leanne Caret says the headquarters of its Aircraft Modernization and Sustainment division will relocate to Oklahoma City during the next few months.'

----------


## Pete

I kept meaning to post this, as I've had it since June:

******

Boeing to build new $50 million facility

Dirt work is underway for a new $50 million 316,000 square foot building to house Boeing's ever-growing operations in Oklahoma City.

As we were first to report: 

2/19: OKCTalk - Boeing looking to expand once again
4/27: OKCTalk - Paycom and Boeing to add a combined 1,323 new jobs over the next 3 years

Oklahoma Industries Authority 5/27/15 purchased the 38.8 acres from Oklahoma County.  The County had acquired in 1992.

1,216 parking spaces

----------


## mkjeeves

> Oklahoma Industries Authority 5/27/15 purchased the 38.8 acres from Oklahoma County.


Does that have any meaning as to if Gardner Tanenbaum will be involved again?

----------


## HOT ROD

> Big news in this story  -   'In addition, Boeing Global Services & Support unit President Leanne Caret says the headquarters of its Aircraft Modernization and Sustainment division will relocate to Oklahoma City during the next few months.'


I logged in just to emphasize this point, OKC is now a HQ city for Boeing. This is BIG, BIG news considering how Boeing is structured. This means that all Aircraft Modernization programs would be controlled by BRASS that is located in OKC. There surely would be flights of those brass between OKC, Chicago, Saint Louis, and plant locations but the decisions will come from OKC. I see even more employees for OKC to come because of the HQ and Engineering divisions; hopefully TIK will see significant operations come online which would complete the 'value chain' if you will and result in a HUGE amount of blue collar high paying jobs.

Great, Great, news. For Boeing, OKC is now in the same class/thought as Chicago (Boeing World HQ), Seattle/Tukwila (Boeing Commercial HQ), and Saint Louis (Boeing Space and Defense HQ); with OKC (Boeing Aircraft Modernization/Sustainment HQ). Huge, Huge, News - so proud of OKC!

----------


## gopokes88

So the two states Boeing is rapidly expanding in are South Carolina and Oklahoma both of which are right to work.....hmm weird.

----------


## HOT ROD

Someone asked about Boeing Manufacturing facilities off the top of my head:

 Puget Sound
 Everett - Commercial Airplanes Widebodies (747, 767, 777, 787)
 Renton - Commercial Airplanes Narrowbodies (737NG, 737MAX)
 Auburn - Commercial Airplanes Wing Fabrication
 Seattle (Boeing Field) - Commercial Airplanes Paint, Sales, All programs: Modification, Rework. Everett also has Paint for the widebodies and I believe Charleston does also. Former World HQ. Current Commercial HQ in suburb Tukwila.

 Long Beach - Military Division (Widebodies). Former McDonnell Douglass Commercial (MD-11/DC-10, Boeing 717/MD-95, MD-80/90)

 Saint Louis - Military Division (Fighter and Attack aircraft). Defense and Space HQ. Shared Services HQ (although they may have moved to Renton since I was last there).

 Huntsville, AL - Military and Space Division (anything space and electronics). Used to be Space HQ.

Charleston - Commercial Airplanes Widebodies (787)

 These are what I'd classify as major Boeing facilities domestically where products are manufactured/assembled, more or less in order of importance/size. Puget Sound is still by far the biggest facility but there's many locations here and each has a specialty more or less.

There are many subcomponent and M&O facilities around the country; Wichita used to house both operations (Commercial Subcomponent mfg off, M&O for military) was probably the biggest facility that wasn't a final production line.

 Chicago is the World Headquarters with all of the Boeing Brass and their support teams making up the Corporate Office. HQ cities also have Boeing Brass for that division and associated support and engineering teams. This is where OKC joins the club since there will be a Corporate Office (CEO, COO, CFO, etc) and support teams for Aircraft Modernization based here. Everybody reports to Chicago, but you run your operation pretty much as you see fit based on the Initiatives/Targets/Contracts secured by Chicago. HUGE NEWS for OKC!

----------


## onthestrip

> I logged in just to emphasize this point, OKC is now a HQ city for Boeing. This is BIG, BIG news considering how Boeing is structured.


Yes, this ought to be big news when you see what OK and OKC gave them.
$43,800,000 in 21st Century Quality Jobs Program
$11,000,000 given to them also for job creation incentives.
$2,000,000 given to them from the Quick Action Closing Fund.
$6,000,000 given to them from OKC for job creation incentives that they received earlier this year.
*$62,800,000 total given to Boeing* for the creation of 459 jobs now (im assuming now) and 369 jobs over next 10 years. All this comes out to $75,845 per job.

Helluva deal for Boeing. No real way of knowing if its a helluva deal for Oklahoma since we dont study or review these incentives.




> So the two states Boeing is rapidly expanding in are South Carolina and Oklahoma both of which are right to work.....hmm weird.


See above and you might have a more accurate answer on why they picked Oklahoma. Who cares about right to work if you are given $62 MILLION!




> Does that have any meaning as to if Gardner Tanenbaum will be involved again?


I wondered the same. Because why would they need so much money from Oklahoma if they arent even building and owning their own Oklahoma headquarters.

----------


## Pete

In the site plan above, note "future parking garage" which indicates they plan to build on some of those parking lots then add structured parking.

This has turned into a massive economic boost for OKC and keeps getting better.

----------


## mugofbeer

Its acost, no doubt, but at $ 90k/yr on average for many years ( hopefully) thats a lot of income tax, sales tax, property tax, houses, large appliances  and general spending that would not have been done otherwise.  Its an investment in the future.

----------


## Bellaboo

Indeed that's a lot of money for a corporate HQ. In the long run though it could be worth a lot more than that. I'd guess that it is.

----------


## gopokes88

> Yes, this ought to be big news when you see what OK and OKC gave them.
> $43,800,000 in 21st Century Quality Jobs Program
> $11,000,000 given to them also for job creation incentives.
> $2,000,000 given to them from the Quick Action Closing Fund.
> $6,000,000 given to them from OKC for job creation incentives that they received earlier this year.
> *$62,800,000 total given to Boeing* for the creation of 459 jobs now (im assuming now) and 369 jobs over next 10 years. All this comes out to $75,845 per job.
> 
> Helluva deal for Boeing. No real way of knowing if its a helluva deal for Oklahoma since we dont study or review these incentives.
> 
> ...


We would have been completely passed over if we were not right to work. But you can keep thinking it wasn't a factor at all while just about every new major manufacturing operation goes to right to work states. And 62,000,000 is going to wind up being pennies in the long run as we become a big city for Boeing.

----------


## gopokes88

Don't forgot the sheer amount of new business that will pop up to help support Boeing's HQ.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> *We would have been completely passed over if we were not right to work*. But you can keep thinking it wasn't a factor at all while just about every new major manufacturing operation goes to right to work states. And 62,000,000 is going to wind up being pennies in the long run as we become a big city for Boeing.


B.S. Tinker is the reason Boeing relocated here. Now if you can show me how the manufacturing base increased since 2001 I might be persuaded. I would also like to see how RTW has impacted wages.
Go on up to Stillwater and ask the former employees of Mercury Marine if RTW prevented their jobs from going to non RTW Wisconsin a few years back.

----------


## ctchandler

> B.S. Tinker is the reason Boeing relocated here. Now if you can show me how the manufacturing base increased since 2001 I might be persuaded. I would also like to see how RTW has impacted wages.
> Go on up to Stillwater and ask the former employees of Mercury Marine if RTW prevented their jobs from going to non RTW Wisconsin a few years back.


Jersey Boss,
Not to get into the RTW thing, Wisconsin is the home of Mercury Marine.  That might have had a little bit to do with the move/consolidation.
C. T.

----------


## mugofbeer

Boeing has not had a lot of fun with the unions in WA and CA.  They have definitely moved certain work out of those states to states with less union influence and lower costs.  Sorry Jersey Boss but whether they came out and said it or not, the work they do at Tinker plus lack of unions and RTW was very possibly key.  To compete with foreign builders who are also lower cost, Boeing cant take those high labor costs and compete with firms already there - plus the Chinese in the near future.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Jersey Boss,
> Not to get into the RTW thing, Wisconsin is the home of Mercury Marine.  That might have had a little bit to do with the move/consolidation.
> C. T.


That was the sole purpose of the move to Wisconsin. IIRC, Mercury held Wisconsin hostage for more incentives using Stillwater as leverage.

----------


## mugofbeer

Or was it WI offered incentives to Mercury to do the consolidation they were already considering.  Can you show backup for the "hostage" allegation?  States proactively offer incentives all the time.  Did Boeing hold OK hostage?  Big difference.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Or was it WI offered incentives to Mercury to do the consolidation they were already considering.  Can you show backup for the "hostage" allegation?  States proactively offer incentives all the time.  Did Boeing hold OK hostage?  Big difference.


Mercury shopped Wi for the best deal they could get, but no doubt the decisions were probably set on their Corporate consolidation in their home state. At the time I had a friend in management at MM in Stillwater and that's where I got my info. He knew they were leaving, just a matter of them getting all they could out of Wi.


Also - The new HQ is coming from St Louis.

'Boeing spokeswoman Jennifer C. Hogan said in an email to The Associated Press that the Aircraft Modernization and Sustainment division, which provides aircraft services for executive transport, airborne refueling, airborne command and control and global strike capabilities, is relocating from St. Louis.'

----------


## gopokes88

> B.S. Tinker is the reason Boeing relocated here. Now if you can show me how the manufacturing base increased since 2001 I might be persuaded. I would also like to see how RTW has impacted wages.
> Go on up to Stillwater and ask the former employees of Mercury Marine if RTW prevented their jobs from going to non RTW Wisconsin a few years back.


Michigan. The home of the auto and historically the heart of the rust belt is a right to work state. It's the way it's going in the future. Right to work might not attract businesses but it will prevent them from coming without it. Heck tesla is the poster boy of the left and where did they put their new battery factory? Nevada. Right to work state. 

Unions were necessary in the past but they are no longer as badly needed. (Some industries still need them) Social media, labor laws, information being more widespread and the legal system have crushed most of the usefulness they used to provide. My great grandfather worked on the railroad and was hit by a train and killed on the job. The company sent a ham and condolences. Any chance that would ever happen today? No the company would offer a huge settlement for wrongful death.

----------


## catch22

The right always loves a good union busting law. (Right to work is great for businesses and terrible for employees) God help it if people make a decent living anymore. Maybe everyone can make $7.45 an hour.

----------


## LakeEffect

Can we move most of these recent posts to the Politics section?

----------


## Jersey Boss

> Michigan. The home of the auto and historically the heart of the rust belt is a right to work state. It's the way it's going in the future. Right to work might not attract businesses but it will prevent them from coming without it. Heck tesla is the poster boy of the left and where did they put their new battery factory? Nevada. Right to work state. 
> 
> Unions were necessary in the past but they are no longer as badly needed. (Some industries still need them) Social media, labor laws, information being more widespread and the legal system have crushed most of the usefulness they used to provide. My great grandfather worked on the railroad and was hit by a train and killed on the job. The company sent a ham and condolences. Any chance that would ever happen today? No the company would offer a huge settlement for wrongful death.


See VW in Tenn. and that corporations desire to have the employees unionized. BTW, how do you identify a particular business/corporation with a political identity? How does social media substitute for unions?

----------


## zookeeper

> See VW in Tenn. and that corporations desire to have the employees unionized. BTW, how do you identify a particular business/corporation with a political identity? How does social media substitute for unions?


Can't put my hands on it right now but there was a good article from someone about how VW was baffled by the anti-union sentiment. Of course, they're a German company.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Boeing qualifies for more than $90 million in state jobs incentives | News OK

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Boeing OKC Hosting Job Fair To Fill 600 Openings - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

----------


## gopokes88

Hmmmm

Fallin: Boeing projects affected by tax break discussion | News OK

----------


## jerrywall

> Hmmmm
> 
> Fallin: Boeing projects affected by tax break discussion | News OK


Wow.  Some cows so sacred they can't even be discussed.

----------


## emtefury

These companies have States wrapped around their finger.  The States are throwing money at them to come in.  I don't blame the companies though.  They will take whatever they can get.

----------


## Just the facts

If that is true, and I seriously doubt it is, then good.  With a $1.3 billion funding gap the last thing Oklahoma needs is more tax parasites.  Take their handout request elseware.  If all these programs actually worked where is the proof?  We've been doing them for 25 years and yet, here we are in the same leaky boat we have always been in.

----------


## onthestrip

This is a joke, Boeing did not just cancel two possible projects just because of the mere mention of some tax credits getting suspended or eliminated in a committee meeting. Besides, they have been given enough. AND, who cares about a few dozen of their jobs when we have a $1.3 BILLION hole, a teacher crises and citizen health and health providers in terrible shape.

Fallin in state of the state: we must look at all tax credits.
Fallin yesterday: No way we can suspend that credit.
She is void of any leadership. And you can tell who she really cares about in this state, its big monied and corporate interests, not the average Okie.

----------


## d-usa

A tax credit may bring a company, but at what cost?

And if you work for that company, would you want to relocate to a state that is this deep in the hole, cutting the services you and your family would use to the core?

----------


## Spartan

> A tax credit may bring a company, but at what cost?
> 
> And if you work for that company, would you want to relocate to a state that is this deep in the hole, cutting the services you and your family would use to the core?


Two responses. 

1. We got Boeing for a bargain, in terms of tax credits.
2. You're questioning whether they want to come to Oklahoma? Whose team are you on?

Oklahoma's economy is in trouble, and incentives that foster economic diversification is the solution to our specific problems. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

----------


## Just the facts

> Two responses. 
> 
> 1. We got Boeing for a bargain, in terms of tax credits.
> 2. You're questioning whether they want to come to Oklahoma? Whose team are you on?
> 
> Oklahoma's economy is in trouble, and incentives that foster economic diversification is the solution to our specific problems. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


You can't make up the loss in volume when you lose money on every transaction.  It is like a grocery store that has priced every item as a loss leader.  Eventually the store goes out of business and everyone sits around asking what happened, they had great prices and were always packed.

----------


## SoonerDave

All hyperbole aside, can anyone quote a reference that stipulates exactly how much of a tax break Boeing got?

----------


## SoonerDave

> A tax credit may bring a company, but at what cost?
> 
> And if you work for that company, would you want to relocate to a state that is this deep in the hole, cutting the services you and your family would use to the core?


Probably depends on how badly you needed a job to feed and clothe your family versus how worried you were about how your state would fund its "entitlements."

----------


## Just the facts

> Probably depends on how badly you needed a job to feed and clothe your family versus how worried you were about how your state would fund its "entitlements."


Are free roads an entitlement?

----------


## SoonerDave

> Are free roads an entitlement?


If you were unemployed and no local hope for a job, would you reject a job somewhere else because you didn't _like_  how they funded their roads?

----------


## mugofbeer

Tax credits happen all over the country.  Colorado is about to pony up $5 million to attract a Food Company research facility thats to employ 500.  Providing incentives is a fact of life

----------


## Questor

A couple of thoughts come to mind.  First, Boeing is offering more than a couple dozen jobs to the metro area.  Last year they had over 2,000 employees and all accounts are that they are headed to 3,000 this year.  The A Better Life website lists them at 2,300, just behind Chesapeake, which has recently laid off a lot of their workforce, so they are probably bigger than CHK right now.  Read that again.  They are bigger than CHK now.  If they do make it to 3,000, they will be somewhere around #10 - 13 largest employer in OKC.

Next, consider the salaries.  According to the very first article posted to NewsOK.com back in 2012, the average salary at the site is $90k.  That means they will be contributing between $180 million and $270 million in OKC salaries this year.  If the average person is taxed 5%, then that's up to $13.5 million in state tax revenues from employees alone.

Next, think of the amount of business/sales the company must be generating at its OKC site.  Overall the entire company should have a revenue of around $100 billion this year.  OKC being one of its major subdivisions is going to be contributing a significant amount of that.  We really have no insight into the numbers, but I imagine the corporate taxes being paid could be significant.

Most of those new folks I mentioned a few paragraphs back are coming here from out of state.  There is actually a state Aerospace/Engineering Employee's Tax Credit that is helping to make that possible.  If I understand what this senate committee has proposed, it would also eliminate that tax credit.  So this proposal would also impact people, not just corporations.

I don't remember what exactly Boeing got out of the deal, but I want to say it was in the couple million dollar range according to NewsOK.  I agree with Spartan, that was a huge bargain for us.

To be blunt, our state is being extremely short-sighted.  As oil revenues have gone up over the years, the state has consistently reduced the taxes they have paid.  Now that oil is tanking it is a double whammy to our state.  And how does the state decide to address it... by thinking about increasing taxes on all the other industries... the industries that they have so desperately tried to attract in order to diversify our economy away from oil.  Does no one see how horrifically bad this line of thought is or where it leads to???

----------


## Zorba

> All hyperbole aside, can anyone quote a reference that stipulates exactly how much of a tax break Boeing got?


The law in question gives them a credit for every ABET graduated engineer for 5 years. The amount is 5% of the salary for an engineer that graduated from out of state and 10% for an engineer that graduated in state. The engineer could not have been employed in Aerospace in Oklahoma immediately proceeding their employment at Boeing. The max per employee is 10K per year, for five years. The amount it adds up to total, no idea.

The engineers also get $5K a year for 5 years for themselves.

What burns me a bit, is there is no requirement that the employee actually move to Oklahoma. A ton of the employees from Wichita never actually relocated here, they just commute. So they get their 5K refund from Oklahoma and immediately pay it to Kansas in taxes. Same goes for people from the DFW area (although there it is just the Texas economy not the state).

----------


## catch22

> The law in question gives them a credit for every ABET graduated engineer for 5 years. The amount is 5% of the salary for an engineer that graduated from out of state and 10% for an engineer that graduated in state. The engineer could not have been employed in Aerospace in Oklahoma immediately proceeding their employment at Boeing. The max per employee is 10K per year, for five years. The amount it adds up to total, no idea.
> 
> The engineers also get $5K a year for 5 years for themselves.
> 
> What burns me a bit, is there is no requirement that the employee actually move to Oklahoma. A ton of the employees from Wichita never actually relocated here, they just commute. So they get their 5K refund from Oklahoma and immediately pay it to Kansas in taxes. Same goes for people from the DFW area (although there it is just the Texas economy not the state).


You pay tax in the state it was earned, not in the state you live in.

----------


## Zorba

> Next, consider the salaries.  According to the very first article posted to NewsOK.com back in 2012, the average salary at the site is $90k.  That means they will be contributing between $180 million and $270 million in OKC salaries this year.  If the average person is taxed 5%, then that's up to $13.5 million in state tax revenues from employees alone.


As you mention lower, most of the highly paid engineers, pay no or very little state income tax at the moment because the get a 5K/yr credit for 5 years. Any left over will roll to the next year; so the average engineer probably gets about 7.5 tax free years. Of course they are still dumping money into the economy, just not the state general fund.




> Next, think of the amount of business/sales the company must be generating at its OKC site.  Overall the entire company should have a revenue of around $100 billion this year.  OKC being one of its major subdivisions is going to be contributing a significant amount of that.  We really have no insight into the numbers, but I imagine the corporate taxes being paid could be significant.


You have to remember the OKC Boeing site is a services only location, they do not deliver aircraft, parts or equipment. Thus, the percentage of revenue is very small as compared to the total company revenue. The big revenue centers are Seattle (commercial aircraft), St. Louis (military aircraft) and Phili (Helicopters). For example, just the Renton, WA plant delivers 42 737s a month, with an average list price around $90M, that is $45.4B/yr out of one plant on one model family. Now throw in the Everett, WA plant and the other plants that delivery aircraft and parts, you can see there isn't a whole lot of that $100B left for services only sites.

That said, services still bring in a decent chunk of change but nothing like delivering aircraft. 

To get a very general idea of OKC revenue, you could guess at the percentage of employees that are billable and then estimate a typical hourly engineering contracting rate and then multiple the rate x 2080 hr/yr x number of billable employees.

----------


## Zorba

> You pay tax in the state it was earned, not in the state you live in.


You pay tax in the state you earn it *first*, then you pay it in the state you live. You can subtract out any money paid to a different state out of what you owe to the state you live in. If you live in Kansas and work in Oklahoma, you pay Oklahoma first, then you pay Kansas a little more since they have higher rates.  I've had to file multi-state taxes half of my adult life. 




> *What if I am a Kansas resident with income from another state?*
> You must file as a Kansas resident and report all income to Kansas, regardless of where it was earned. If the other state requires an income tax return to be filed, you must complete the worksheet in the Kansas tax booklet to determine your credit for taxes paid to other states. Be sure to include a copy of the other state's return with your Kansas return. Copies of the other state's W-2 forms alone are not acceptable. If the other state does not require an income tax return, you cannot claim a credit on the Kansas return.


Kansas Department of Revenue - Frequently Asked Questions About Individual Income

----------


## adaniel

Bottom line, this state is $1.3 billion in the hole. About 1 dollar in 5 that are suppose to be there are not there. Thats a bigger hole than Illinois, Connecticut or any of those other evil blue states OK is supposed to be more fiscally restrained than. I don't mind some incentives, but clearly this state cannot afford such generous ones and probably had no business paying them in the first place. The last few months of last year OK was paying more in subsidies than it was collecting in corporate taxes. What do you propose we cut, or whose taxes do we raise to keep this going? 

Also, do you all really take Kween Mary at her word here? Because if you do than thats pretty sh**ty of her to leak what is likely confidential negotiations with a private company to try and sink what is, at this point, one bill that has passed one Senate Committee. Nowhere close to being official. More likely than not, there is more to this story. But keep slurping that Koolaid Fallin is serving.

----------


## Just the facts

Meanwhile the State doesn't get any tax revenue while at the same time providing services to all these people.  And it isn't like they pay "extra" taxes in the future to make up for the years of tax credits.  What part of "THIS ISN'T WORKING" isn't sinking in yet?  The State has a $1.3 billion short fall ....this year.  If all these incentives worked then why aren't they working?  Where is all the tax revenue that these incentives were supposed to morph into?  We have been at this for over 20 years.  We should be flush with tax dollars by now.

----------


## gopokes88

> As you mention lower, most of the highly paid engineers, pay no or very little state income tax at the moment because the get a 5K/yr credit for 5 years. Any left over will roll to the next year; so the average engineer probably gets about 7.5 tax free years. Of course they are still dumping money into the economy, just not the state general fund.
> 
> 
> 
> You have to remember the OKC Boeing site is a services only location, they do not deliver aircraft, parts or equipment. Thus, the percentage of revenue is very small as compared to the total company revenue. The big revenue centers are Seattle (commercial aircraft), St. Louis (military aircraft) and Phili (Helicopters). For example, just the Renton, WA plant delivers 42 737s a month, with an average list price around $90M, that is $45.4B/yr out of one plant on one model family. Now throw in the Everett, WA plant and the other plants that delivery aircraft and parts, you can see there isn't a whole lot of that $100B left for services only sites.
> 
> That said, services still bring in a decent chunk of change but nothing like delivering aircraft. 
> 
> To get a very general idea of OKC revenue, you could guess at the percentage of employees that are billable and then estimate a typical hourly engineering contracting rate and then multiple the rate x 2080 hr/yr x number of billable employees.


We're all kinda guilty of throwing numbers around but dang boeings really aren't that hard to look up. 

http://s2.q4cdn.com/661678649/files/...-2015-10-Q.pdf

Page 9. 
Global Services and support revenue first 9 months ended September 2015, 6.5 billion in revenue. (Assuming that's the correct category for okc ops)

----------


## Zorba

> We're all kinda guilty of throwing numbers around but dang boeings really aren't that hard to look up. 
> 
> http://s2.q4cdn.com/661678649/files/...-2015-10-Q.pdf
> 
> Page 9. 
> Global Services and support revenue first 9 months ended September 2015, 6.5 billion in revenue. (Assuming that's the correct category for okc ops)


Global Services includes OKC, but is much larger than just OKC.

----------


## Zorba

Too late to edit my post above. I couldn't find a good up to date break down of what all was in Global Services, but here is the best I could find before I head off to work: http://www.boeing.com/farnborough201...d_GSS_0514.pdf




> Global Services & Support (GS&S), a business unit of Boeing Defense, Space & 
> Security, is a leading worldwide provider of aircraft sustainment, modification and 
> training solutions. The business is dedicated to providing customers with enduring 
> support from product inception to service retirement. *With more than 15,000 employees 
> in 300 locations around the world*, GS&S is ready to assist military and commercial 
> customers 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Meanwhile the State doesn't get any tax revenue while at the same time providing services to all these people.  And it isn't like they pay "extra" taxes in the future to make up for the years of tax credits.  What part of "THIS ISN'T WORKING" isn't sinking in yet?  The State has a $1.3 billion short fall ....this year.  If all these incentives worked then why aren't they working?  Where is all the tax revenue that these incentives were supposed to morph into?  We have been at this for over 20 years.  We should be flush with tax dollars by now.


Kerry, you and I are on opposite sides of the coin quite a bit, but good grief, this is disingenuous even for you. You're resorting to a logical fallacy of tying the state's $1.3B budget deficit to tax incentives given to employers? C'mon, Kerry. You're better than that. You're *smarter* than that. And you know it, too.

----------


## Just the facts

I am not saying Quality Jobs alone is responsible for the budget gap - I am saying it isn't doing what it was designed to do - increase State revenue.

Here is the theory.  If we provide incentives now then after the incentives expire we will have an expanded tax base and state revenue will increase.

Here is where that fails.  1.  We have to provide services to the new employees and employers now.  2.  We never get that money back because we don't overtax them on the backend.  Taxes they pay in 2025 will cover state expenses in 2025.  The rest of us have to pay their share for them until then - and we never get reimbursed.  3.  The support companies who move here with them ALSO get incentives which compounds the problem.  4.  All too often, these companies close Oklahoma operations shortly after the incentives end and there are no penalties for doing so.

The State government is US!  It has to be revenue sustainable.  Like it or not the people of Oklahoma collectively decided via elections what services they want the State to provide to them.  Those services cost money that can only be raised via taxes.  This year the State collections are $1.3 billion short (out of a $7 billion budget).  We aren't in a position to offer ANY incentives because they lose money.  They are by definition a loss-leader, but unlike a retailer - we don't have any high markup items to sell them once they are in the store.

----------


## David

Isn't it more like a $20+ billion budget?

----------


## ctchandler

> Isn't it more like a $20+ billion budget?


David,
How about somewhere in between?
C. T.

Oklahoma state budget far larger than what's appropriated | News OK

THE state-appropriated budget approved by lawmakers this year totaled $7.1 billion. That’s quite a sum, and interest groups often loudly insist they should get a larger slice of that particular pie. Here’s the problem: That figure represents only a fraction of total state government spending in Oklahoma. The real total is at least $24 billion after accounting for funds reaped outside the legislative budget process.

Critics believe the gap between those two figures, and the disproportionate attention given to the smaller figure directly set by lawmakers, has distorted budget discussions at the Oklahoma Capitol for years. But a new transparency effort could shift that dynamic.

----------


## David

Yeah, that $24 billion full number from last year's budget was what I was remembering reading about.

----------


## Just the facts

So the State keeps two sets of books?  No wonder everything is screwed up.  So which set has the $1.3 billion short fall?

----------


## gopokes88

> Too late to edit my post above. I couldn't find a good up to date break down of what all was in Global Services, but here is the best I could find before I head off to work: http://www.boeing.com/farnborough201...d_GSS_0514.pdf


Usually 10-Qs aren't going to be that specific but we can probably find the number of okc employees divide that by 15,000 and have a reasonable idea of OKC's output. It will still be large, Boeing is just a massive company.

----------


## onthestrip

> You pay tax in the state it was earned, not in the state you live in.


True. But I imagine part of the reasoning of giving these income tax breaks is not just the job or getting some form of reduced income tax from the person, but also having them spend their daily money in this state and generate sales taxes. If they live out of state we dont get that, or any ad valorem taxes from them. Simply put, its not that great of deal to subsidize jobs if they dont live in this state full time.

----------


## Questor

> The last few months of last year OK was paying more in subsidies than it was collecting in corporate taxes. What do you propose we cut, or whose taxes do we raise to keep this going?


It's really very simple in my mind... the first problem was that ridiculous 0.25% income tax cut that was passed a few years ago... the average family saved what, $125 - $200 a year from their tax bill?  The cost of that was about $317 million less tax revenues for the state of Oklahoma.  That is the most asinine tradeoff I have ever heard of in my life.  Step one should be to revert back to the prior tax rate - and bingo, you're already 1/3 of the way there.  The second thing that needs to be addressed is the huge bargain Oil and Gas gets on their drilling activities... taking oil out of the ground used to be subject to a 7% tax.  Horizontal drilling, because it was experimental at the time, got a break of a just 1% tax starting back in the 90s.  Everything is horizontally drilled now.  I forget what the new law a year or two ago set the rate at, but if it isn't 1% it is very low.  In comparison North Dakota charges 11.5%.  So now isn't a great time to be raising taxes on that industry an order of magnitude, but as others have pointed out everyone is getting impacted by what is going on and so I think a modest tax increase needs to be looked at.  It could raise as much as $150 million a year.  Now look at that, you're already half-way there.

These are clearly low-hanging fruit that could dramatically change the situation overnight; the only reason it doesn't happen is because of politics.  In just two examples I have gotten us half way there... almost half a billion dollars richer.  And yet politicians are really going to set and argue over one million, two million, three million dollars in incentive packages instead.  That will never, ever get you there.

----------


## Zorba

> Usually 10-Qs aren't going to be that specific but we can probably find the number of okc employees divide that by 15,000 and have a reasonable idea of OKC's output. It will still be large, Boeing is just a massive company.


That would probably get a decent rough order of magnitude. But remember that spare parts, maintenance overhauls mods and large mod kits all come out of other facilities and are high revenue generators. 

I am not trying to downplay the money Boeing is adding to the economy here, but it is likely in the 9 digits, not the 10 digits, and definitely not in the 11 digits.

----------


## Questor

Saw the Devon announcement today.  At the rate things are going here, Boeing may be a top 5 OKC employer by the end of the year, lol.

I did want to say that I think we need to think long-term about this... if a bunch of engineers and a company get a tax break for 2-3 years, but then go on to pay huge taxes we would not have otherwise had for at least the next 10-20 years, that is a very positive ROI for us.

----------


## oklip955

Q if they did that and say increased the gasoline tax by 10 cents since gas is cheap right now and say have a 5 year sunset clause, that would bring in a lot more money also. Add $5 to each drivers licence renewal (maybe except people over 62 on a pension) and add $5 to each vehicle tag renewal. Use the money to fund roads/bridges and public safety short falls.  Add a $10 charge to all residential property tax for underfunded volunteer fire dept grant programs and say $50 to comericial zoned property for similar underfunded programs. As far as education, there could be some kind of other fee added to something for say 5 years and the state could look at some other school consolidation or finding other sources of long term funding.

----------


## Just the facts

> I did want to say that I think we need to think long-term about this... if a bunch of engineers and a company get a tax break for 2-3 years, but then go on to pay huge taxes we would not have otherwise had for at least the next 10-20 years, that is a very positive ROI for us.


Are we going to eventually charge them huge taxes - or just the same taxes that everyone else is paying now?  Keep in mind that the state is losing money at the current tax rates.

----------


## Rover

It is completely naive or worse to think that we don't have to compete for jobs with incentives.  Some people have no clue as to the value of investment either for personal or public good.  Thank goodness we have Boeing here today to help diversify our economy and stabilize our job market to help us avoid the deep, deep crashes we have had in the past when oil tanks.  You can theorize with narrow perspectives and personal bias and get bent out of shape about theoretical tax collections which weren't going to materialize, or you can appreciate what a little planning and competitive activity can do to grow an economy.

----------


## soonerguru

> A couple of thoughts come to mind.  First, Boeing is offering more than a couple dozen jobs to the metro area.  Last year they had over 2,000 employees and all accounts are that they are headed to 3,000 this year.  The A Better Life website lists them at 2,300, just behind Chesapeake, which has recently laid off a lot of their workforce, so they are probably bigger than CHK right now.  Read that again.  They are bigger than CHK now.  If they do make it to 3,000, they will be somewhere around #10 - 13 largest employer in OKC.
> 
> Next, consider the salaries.  According to the very first article posted to NewsOK.com back in 2012, the average salary at the site is $90k.  That means they will be contributing between $180 million and $270 million in OKC salaries this year.  If the average person is taxed 5%, then that's up to $13.5 million in state tax revenues from employees alone.
> 
> Next, think of the amount of business/sales the company must be generating at its OKC site.  Overall the entire company should have a revenue of around $100 billion this year.  OKC being one of its major subdivisions is going to be contributing a significant amount of that.  We really have no insight into the numbers, but I imagine the corporate taxes being paid could be significant.
> 
> Most of those new folks I mentioned a few paragraphs back are coming here from out of state.  There is actually a state Aerospace/Engineering Employee's Tax Credit that is helping to make that possible.  If I understand what this senate committee has proposed, it would also eliminate that tax credit.  So this proposal would also impact people, not just corporations.
> 
> I don't remember what exactly Boeing got out of the deal, but I want to say it was in the couple million dollar range according to NewsOK.  I agree with Spartan, that was a huge bargain for us.
> ...


We have total morons running our state. I fear for our future.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Are we going to eventually charge them huge taxes - or just the same taxes that everyone else is paying now?  Keep in mind that the state is losing money at the current tax rates.


We need jobs, Kerry. Jobs. Jobs that put real money into the hands of real people. I'm not sure that ever factors into the equation for you.

----------


## onthestrip

> It is completely naive or worse to think that we don't have to compete for jobs with incentives.  *Some people have no clue as to the value of investment either for personal or public good.*  Thank goodness we have Boeing here today to help diversify our economy and stabilize our job market to help us avoid the deep, deep crashes we have had in the past when oil tanks.  You can theorize with narrow perspectives and personal bias and get bent out of shape about theoretical tax collections which weren't going to materialize, or you can appreciate what a little planning and competitive activity can do to grow an economy.


I know! We have no clue because the state wont do any analyzing or studies to see if tax payer's money going to business subsidies are actually worth it. No economists, no legislative committees or anything to determine if these are good investments.

Heres a very recent study saying they arent worth it. Basically says its better to invest in our citizens, quality of life, educational things.
How States Can Stop Wasting Their Taxpayers' Money

----------


## Rover

If we had a great capital base, more population, and already existing array of diversified businesses which would grow and spawn more businesses, MAYBE we wouldn't have to offer incentives.  OK legislature and governor does not support R&D, doesn't support infrastructure, doesn't support culture, doesn't support education.  We have no harbors, few direct flights, limited train service, etc., etc.  What exactly is the catalyst to get the economy growing?

----------


## HangryHippo

> If we had a great capital base, more population, and already existing array of diversified businesses which would grow and spawn more businesses, MAYBE we wouldn't have to offer incentives.  OK legislature and governor does not support R&D, doesn't support infrastructure, doesn't support culture, doesn't support education.  We have no harbors, few direct flights, limited train service, etc., etc.  *What exactly is the catalyst to get the economy growing?*


Income tax cuts!  Hell yeah!

----------


## Jersey Boss

:Rock Guitar: This is the type of legislation that should be included when Oklahoma provides incentives to industries to relocate. Other incentives that have no basis as to relocation decisions,  looking at you OKC Basketball club should not be granted. Amending the Quality Jobs Act to give the Thunder a tax break after all the other incentives provided by the local government reeks of cronyism.
New bill targets Boeing bank account rather than tax breaks | HeraldNet.com - The Petri Dish
New-bill-targets-Boeings-bank-account-rather-than-its-tax-break

An Everett lawmaker in Olympia wants to make the Boeing Co. pay $2,500 per year for each job lost in Washington since the company secured an extension of tax incentives from the state in 2013.

Rep. June Robinson, D-Everett, said Thursday she will introduce legislation requiring the company to make annual payments to a state fund used to pay for education programs.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> If we had a great capital base, more population, and already existing array of diversified businesses which would grow and spawn more businesses, MAYBE we wouldn't have to offer incentives.  *OK legislature and governor* does not support R&D, doesn't support infrastructure, doesn't support culture, doesn't support education.  We have no harbors, few direct flights, limited train service, etc., etc.  What exactly is the catalyst to get the economy growing?


Throw the bums out.

----------


## TheTravellers

> Throw the bums out.


How?  Every election I vote for the candidates that will try to do the best for the people and every election my candidates lose (some of my family and friends do the same).  Guess I'll have to start going door to door asking people to not be stupid when they vote.  Until the Derplahomans get a clue, ain't gonna happen, and the getting a clue part probably ain't ever gonna happen either.

----------


## Just the facts

> We need jobs, Kerry. Jobs. Jobs that put real money into the hands of real people. I'm not sure that ever factors into the equation for you.


I get that but you are ignoring the fact we have a state government to fund.  All the jobs in the world are worthless if they don't pay enough taxes to pay for the services the people say they want.

----------


## soonerguru

> I get that but you are ignoring the fact we have a state government to fund.  All the jobs in the world are worthless if they don't pay enough taxes to pay for the services the people say they want.


I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but Oklahoma is going to need to invest in itself if it ever is going to grow economically beyond fossil fuel production. Unfortunately, the Gov and Leg also have been cutting income taxes (so marginally to average people they don't even notice the cut, but evidently more noticeable to the people who donate to their campaigns) and giving huge sops to oil and gas, magnifying our state's revenue crisis. Rover is right, and so are you, and that's why we need actual adults with critical thinking skills to analyze the information, ensure that tax incentives are actually delivering as promised, and ALSO ensure that the state raises adequate revenue to function. Similarly, we need to invest enough in education that we have an educated workforce (this is as critical as infrastructure to most major employers).

But, the clowns in the Governor's office and in the Legislature would rather spend their time focusing on Ten Commandments monuments and who is allowed to pee-pee in public restrooms. 

Like I said above, this state is being run by complete morons.

----------


## Questor

We aren't going to get to a better tax base by targeting one company or one group of employees, and we certainly aren't going to get there by doing things that prevent diversification of our base.  We need to get real and stop doing what Washington always does... arguing over pennies that will never get us there and have the political will to do what it takes to balance the budget.

Someone up above expressed skepticism about the high quality jobs act.  It's important to note that every tax incentive is based on performance - no one gets a credit until they can prove that a job has moved here.  The next credit comes when the next job moves here.  It's a great program.

Does it set a good precedent to promise a company x to relocate here, and to promise people thinking of moving here that they are going to get a tax break for x number of years to entice them here, only to have our government go back on that promise only a year or two into the deal, after it looks like the other party has fully committed to moving here?  After they have built two multistory buildings and are building a third massive building?  If you were a company considering moving here based on incentives, would you really trust anyone in Oklahoma at this point?

----------


## Just the facts

Here is one big problem I have with Quality Jobs - there is no provisions the jobs stay after the incentives run out.  If the whole idea is to expand the tax bases by initially depriving the tax base then what is wrong with requiring companies to commit to a period of time post-incentives?  For example, if Boeing receives $90 million in State incentives over a 10-year period they should pay an exit penalty if any of those jobs leave for 10 years AFTER the incentives end.  If a company can't commit to that they shouldn't qualify for something called "Quality Jobs" and maybe we should create another program called "Fly by Night" jobs for them.

I would personally like to the see one of the State's leading newspapers do an investigative report on the history of the Quality Jobs program; how many companies received payouts, how much did they get, how many jobs did they really creates, how many of those jobs are still here, and for jobs that left how soon after the incentives ended did they leave, and how finally - how much are those companies paying in State taxes today (are we actually getting any benefit because hells bells, there are so many State tax credit programs they might not ever pay State taxes).

----------


## mugofbeer

If anyone had a crystal ball to help peer into the future to see if those jobs are needed 5 or 10 years in the future, you might have a point.  The reality is you dont have the ball.  The problem with your thoughts, Kerry, isn't that they wouldn't be nice to have, the problem is that they aren't based on reality.  There is no possible way a state like  Oklahoma can compete without incentives.   Incentives didn't cause the budget crisis, it was irrational budgeting.  Like some of your thoughts, they are nice to imagine but not based on reality.  OKs current budget crisis should have been planned for but that involves having a huge rainy-day fund instead of lowering tax rates.  I've  said all along, the tax rates in OK are reasonable.   If there is a surplus after rainy-day funds are funded, send rebate checks.

----------


## Just the facts

Being able to predict future jobs isn't a State problem - it is a Company problem.  From the State perspective, companies are being given these incentives to expand the tax base - NOT to reduce the tax liability of the company.  If Company X has to downsize then let them downsize in another state.  If we are going to compete for job gains, let's also compete in job retention by making it as hard as possible to close Oklahoma based operations.

If Oklahoma can't compete without incentives, then why don't we spend the money fixing THAT problem for everyone (including people who already live here) instead of subsidizing it away on a company by company cases?  BTW - I don't believe Oklahoma can't compete for most of the jobs that come here as part of Quality Jobs.

http://okpolicy.org/wp-content/uploa...mer.pdf?b0f37e




> That same report showed Oklahoma provides over *$2 billion each year* to businesses for economic development.
> 
> ...
> 
> Oil and gas companies were made eligible to receive Quality Jobs payments in 2005, and in fiscal year 2013 they received over 53% of incentive payments

----------


## Rover

We can tell companies to imagine that we have a more educated and trained work force...maybe they would buy that.  Who needs any stinkin incentives when you have it all to attract jobs here.  Not only should we not offer incentives, we should tell half of these corporate blood suckers to just stay out.  Who needs more business here...surely not us.  Everyone wants to be us.  

Good grief.  Let's just not compete and see how that works.  Oh wait...we tried that.

Why is it that some think that incentives are the ONLY thing we are doing?  Incentives are just one tool to use.

----------


## onthestrip

> We aren't going to get to a better tax base by targeting one company or one group of employees, and we certainly aren't going to get there by doing things that prevent diversification of our base.  We need to get real and stop doing what Washington always does... arguing over pennies that will never get us there and have the political will to do what it takes to balance the budget.
> 
> Someone up above expressed skepticism about the high quality jobs act.  It's important to note that every tax incentive is based on performance - no one gets a credit until they can prove that a job has moved here.  The next credit comes when the next job moves here.  It's a great program.
> 
> *Does it set a good precedent to promise a company x to relocate here, and to promise people thinking of moving here that they are going to get a tax break for x number of years to entice them here, only to have our government go back on that promise only a year or two into the deal, after it looks like the other party has fully committed to moving here?  After they have built two multistory buildings and are building a third massive building?  If you were a company considering moving here based on incentives, would you really trust anyone in Oklahoma at this point?*


Idk, does it set a good precedent for the state to give out Quality Jobs Act money, thinking we will get long term jobs, only to have a company lay people off or move the jobs and we are left with nothing in return? We have got burned, so it probably shouldnt be that surprising that businesses could get burned.

And yes, business should trust Oklahoma. No company has got burned or had the state renege on a deal yet. Oklahoma has time and again shown we bend way over for corporate interests. Just some chatter about eliminating credits isnt the same as going back on a job subsidy promise.

----------


## Just the facts

> We can tell companies to imagine that we have a more educated and trained work force...maybe they would buy that.  Who needs any stinkin incentives when you have it all to attract jobs here.  Not only should we not offer incentives, we should tell half of these corporate blood suckers to just stay out.  Who needs more business here...surely not us.  Everyone wants to be us.  
> 
> Good grief.  Let's just not compete and see how that works.  Oh wait...we tried that.
> 
> Why is it that some think that incentives are the ONLY thing we are doing?  Incentives are just one tool to use.


So what is wrong then with reviewing the effectiveness of that one tool?  The rest of your comment was totally unnecessary.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Idk, does it set a good precedent for the state to give out Quality Jobs Act money, thinking we will get long term jobs, only to have a company lay people off or move the jobs and we are left with nothing in return? We have got burned, so it probably shouldnt be that surprising that businesses could get burned.
> 
> And yes, business should trust Oklahoma.* No company has got burned or had the state renege on a deal yet.* Oklahoma has time and again shown we bend way over for corporate interests. Just some chatter about eliminating credits isnt the same as going back on a job subsidy promise.


Ask GM that question ....not sure if it swayed them any, but they are no longer here... not necessarily the state, but it sure wasn't pretty.

----------


## SoonerDave

> I get that but you are ignoring the fact we have a state government to fund.  All the jobs in the world are worthless if they don't pay enough taxes to pay for the services the people say they want.


That presumes putting spendable dollars in the hands of consumers is worthless. 

On that we will forever disagree. Government is not an end unto itself.

----------


## Rover

> So what is wrong then with reviewing the effectiveness of that one tool?  The rest of your comment was totally unnecessary.


 Because if you don't review it in context then it is just babbling.  Text without context is just pretext.  Analyzing incentives by themselves isn't in any way meaningful.  And this mile wide one inch deep dogmatic philosophizing is great chat stuff but is not meaningful.

----------


## Just the facts

> That presumes putting spendable dollars in the hands of consumers is worthless. 
> 
> On that we will forever disagree. Government is not an end unto itself.


It's not worthless, it just doesn't fund the State government.  If we could just get everyone paying the same rates (corporations included) we might could get some of the programs and spending under control.  As it is, the tax burden isn't falling on enough entities.

----------


## onthestrip

> Ask GM that question ....not sure if it swayed them any, but they are no longer here... not necessarily the state, but it sure wasn't pretty.


Im not familiar with what you are speaking of. Did the state back out of a subsidy/corporate welfare/tax credit deal with GM?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Im not familiar with what you are speaking of. Did the state back out of a subsidy/corporate welfare/tax credit deal with GM?


Happened so long ago, not sure if I can get it straight. An entity was created called 'Oklahoma Industrial Authority', or something like that. Promises were made to lure GM, they built and they came and produced for a few years. Then someone filed suit to challenge the OIA (or whatever they were called) and the courts ruled they really didn't the authority to issue incentives. Not sure if this is why they left but they are no longer here.

----------


## baralheia

Remember that when GM shuttered the plant, GM was going through it's decline and woes - not to mention that by that point, the plant was only producing vehicles based on GM's SUV platform (GMT360). SUV sales were also taking a nosedive thanks to gasoline prices and relatively poor fuel economy. GM's Oklahoma City Assembly was the first of 9 GM plants to shut down in North America during this period. The cost to retool the plant back to return to production of regular passenger vehicles was just too large to bear for a company that was already really hurting financially. That's not to say there weren't any lost incentives (I'm honestly not sure if there were) but it certainly was far from the only reason for them to shut down.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> Happened so long ago, not sure if I can get it straight. An entity was created called 'Oklahoma Industrial Authority', or something like that. Promises were made to lure GM, they built and they came and produced for a few years. Then someone filed suit to challenge the OIA (or whatever they were called) and the courts ruled they really didn't the authority to issue incentives. Not sure if this is why they left but they are no longer here.


You would think that  GM based on size and years of operation would have had a little bit of foresight to have run those incentives by the legal department as to their validity. Be it as it may, the incentives were worthless.  There could have been many reasons why they left, but producing vehicles here that were duds did not help.

----------


## SouthsideSooner

> Happened so long ago, not sure if I can get it straight. An entity was created called 'Oklahoma Industrial Authority', or something like that. Promises were made to lure GM, they built and they came and produced for a few years. Then someone filed suit to challenge the OIA (or whatever they were called) and the courts ruled they really didn't the authority to issue incentives. Not sure if this is why they left but they are no longer here.


From Newsok at the time...

"The Mid-Del School District went back to court Tuesday, seeking to overturn a decision by the Oklahoma County Board of Equalization that General Motors Corp. is not subject to 1979 property taxes on its Oklahoma City auto assembly plant.

Named as defendants in the Oklahoma County district court lawsuit are GM and the Oklahoma Industries Authority, the public trust that granted the automaker a 20-year tax exemption in return for situating its plant in Oklahoma City."

Mid-Del School District Appeals GM Decision | News OK

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## drinner-okc

The property tax 'waiver' was worth about 11 million dollars. Just before the lawsuit was filed, OKC was in negotiations for the three corners adjacent to the GM plant. The day the suit was filed those contracts were never seen again.
GM said at that time, the first quarter that plant was in the red they would shutter it. Even with unpopular models the quality was so good here the cars sold. THAT frustrated GM.  why do you think OKC was assigned that XUV anyway?

----------


## Bunty

> We have total morons running our state. I fear for our future.


State cities surely need more power to determine their destinies.  It's needed so cities can bypass badly run, unresponsive, moronic state government.  What's stopping Oklahoma City schools from raising teacher pay by $5000?  If it has to do with state laws, they need abolished.  Better support for education at all levels is needed, because many good ideas for industry and entrepreneurship originate within the state.  It can require well educated people to execute them.

----------


## Just the facts

> If we had a great capital base, more population, and already existing array of diversified businesses which would grow and spawn more businesses, MAYBE we wouldn't have to offer incentives.  OK legislature and governor does not support R&D, doesn't support infrastructure, doesn't support culture, doesn't support education.  We have no harbors, few direct flights, limited train service, etc., etc.  What exactly is the catalyst to get the economy growing?


Oklahoma has a couple of ports (Catoosa and Muskogee to name 2).  I agree about the direct flights and I have been harping on WRWA for several years now.  Train service?  TxDOT has done more for rail service in Oklahoma than ODOT has.  So how about this...we take the $2 billion in annual subsidies that the State doles out (50% of which goes to oil companies), and we invest it in all the items you just mentioned.  If we make a place nice to live and work people won't need to be incentivized to live here- they will just choose to do it all on their own.

And here is crazy idea - if we have to much industry X and not enough industry Y and Z by comparison, there are two ways to diversify.  A) Get more Y and Z (which what we have been trying with little sustainable success), or B) Get rid of some X.

----------


## Rover

You ignore the fact that OKC has substantially diversified in the last 2 decades.  Perhaps some of the incentives are really working.  Wouldn't that blow your mind and ruin your narrative.

----------


## Jersey Boss

Anybody have access to a list of largest employers in OKC 20 years ago and now? I imagine Tinker and OK State employees would still be in the top 5.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> *You ignore the fact that OKC has substantially diversified in the last 2 decades.*  Perhaps some of the incentives are really working.  Wouldn't that blow your mind and ruin your narrative.


Where are the numbers for that? I agree with Jersey Boss that I'd like to see comparisons with how much we've diversified from the past.

It'd be nice to see comparisons from 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and even 30 years ago would be cool. But in all fairness, even just having one for 20 years ago compared to today would be nice.

----------


## Just the facts

For every Boeing there is an ATT/Lucent.

----------


## OKCRT

I would like a Ford-Ram-Chev. PU plants in OKC. Now how do I go about getting them here? I know I have to spend money to make money but I am not sure if I have enough money to outspend BigTex for those plants. So how do I get them? I really want to know.

----------


## Jersey Boss

OKC is annexed by Mexico.
More car manufacturing jobs move south -- to Mexico

----------


## Questor

From JTF's own link he posted, one of the requirements for remaining on the Quality Jobs Program is:  "Add a minimum of $2.5 million in annual new taxable payroll in Oklahoma within the first three years of their participation in the program. If this condition is not met, the company is removed from the program and cannot participate again for at least one year.  There are exceptions to this payroll threshold that are detailed in the Quality Jobs Program Guidelines."

And...

"A 'clawback provision' was imposed if a participant does not maintain operations in the state for a full three years from the start date of joining the program. If they do not maintain operations, they must repay 100 percent of the benefit received (2013)."

And...

"To ensure this requirement is met, the Commerce Department performs an economic analysis showing the net bene t of this program. For  scal years 2011-2013, they showed costs of incentive payments of $210.8 million and increased revenue to the state of $231.8 million, which re ects a net bene t of $21.0 million."

The negative portion of the article is based on flawed logic or aggregate logic that claims that most QJA jobs were going to be created here due to growth anyway.  It does not look at specific companies.  If it had, it would be hard to argue that a company such as Boeing, which has now shuttered its Wichita site and moved large programs here from Long Beach and Seattle, has done anything but create brand new opportunities for Oklahoma.

----------


## Just the facts

So let me respond to those points.




> Add a minimum of $2.5 million in annual new taxable payroll in Oklahoma within the first three years of their participation in the program.


The taxes from that $2.5 million payroll are rebated to the company so the State doesn't benefit at all.




> A 'clawback provision' was imposed if a participant does not maintain operations in the state for a full three years from the start date of joining the program. If they do not maintain operations, they must repay 100 percent of the benefit received (2013).


That is a start but the company receives the payment for 10 years - not 3 years.  The claw-back requirement needs to exceed the payments time period.  They need to stick around for some period of time AFTER the payments end or pay it back.  The whole concept is based on expanding the tax base, not letting companies setup short-term "no tax" zones.




> To ensure this requirement is met, the Commerce Department performs an economic analysis showing the net bene t of this program. For scal years 2011-2013, they showed costs of incentive payments of $210.8 million and increased revenue to the state of $231.8 million, which re ects a net benefit of $21.0 million.


So the agency running the program does an audit showing the program is working.  Try doing that in the private sector.  I wonder if this is the same people who said the AICCM would result in $2 billion in revenue over 20 years.

Finally, Boeing might be a successful recipient - but we have to wait about 10 more years to find out.  The Oklahoman has stories every year on companies closing Oklahoma operation as soon as the payments stop.

----------


## Bellaboo

*
So the agency running the program does an audit showing the program is working.  Try doing that in the private sector.  I wonder if this is the same people who said the AICCM would result in $2 billion in revenue over 20 years.*

The private sector has to run their own audit and send it to the agency to confirm what they should be paid. It's all up front. Trust me on this one.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Because if you don't review it in context then it is just babbling.  Text without context is just pretext.  *Analyzing incentives by themselves isn't in any way meaningful.*  And this mile wide one inch deep dogmatic philosophizing is great chat stuff but is not meaningful.


I'm sorry, but what the hell?  Were you serious?  I want to believe you were just babbling to continue picking at JTF...

----------


## Just the facts

> *
> So the agency running the program does an audit showing the program is working.  Try doing that in the private sector.  I wonder if this is the same people who said the AICCM would result in $2 billion in revenue over 20 years.*
> 
> The private sector has to run their own audit and send it to the agency to confirm what they should be paid. It's all up front. Trust me on this one.


I don't doubt the companies confirm how much they have been paid - I am questioning how the agency determines how much return the State has received.  My guess is they use a bunch of suspect multipliers to arrive at the net benefit.  We see it all the time with government agencies over-estimating the return on State spending.  Heck, if we got just half the money all the State programs were supposed to generate we could totally eliminate the State income tax (although that would render Quality Jobs useless since it refunds State income tax).

Lets look at Boeing as an example.  Since all of the income tax paid by their employees in the program gets refunded to Boeing, where does the State see any benefit?  Well, they start by estimating how much income tax the employee pays and how many "jobs" are created down the line (as if Crest hires a new stock person just because Boeing has 1000 employees here).  They never factor in the cost associated with the new jobs (road wear and tear, fire protection, new police officers, etc...).  It is all cherry-picked hocus pocus.

----------


## onthestrip

> *The negative portion of the article is based on flawed logic or aggregate logic that claims that most QJA jobs were going to be created here due to growth anyway.*  It does not look at specific companies.  If it had, it would be hard to argue that a company such as Boeing, which has now shuttered its Wichita site and moved large programs here from Long Beach and Seattle, has done anything but create brand new opportunities for Oklahoma.


Yes, for every Boeing, a company that relocated jobs here (which is good), there are many more chesapeakes who every one and their dog knew werent going anywhere yet still got free money from the state to subsidize the natural job growth. There is no flawed logic in that. There are countless other Oklahoma based companies who werent going anywhere yet got free money from the state, just because.

Flash forward to now and chesapeake lays off hundreds but still got that free  money from us tax payers.

Side note, does the state require drug testing of these companies execs and employees or do we just drug test the poor welfare recipients?

----------


## Rover

> Yes, for every Boeing, a company that relocated jobs here (which is good), there are many more chesapeakes who every one and their dog knew werent going anywhere yet still got free money from the state to subsidize the natural job growth. There is no flawed logic in that. There are countless other Oklahoma based companies who werent going anywhere yet got free money from the state, just because.
> 
> Flash forward to now and chesapeake lays off hundreds but still got that free  money from us tax payers.
> 
> Side note, does the state require drug testing of these companies execs and employees or do we just drug test the poor welfare recipients?


Are you under the impression that the state gives them money in advance of the hiring and that they can just spend it or not however they see fit?

----------


## Rover

> It is all cherry-picked hocus pocus.


Of course it is hocus pocus to you...just like GPS is just hocus pocus to my father who is near 100.  He thinks it is magic and prefers printed maps that were outdated a decade ago with none of the new expressways on them.

----------


## onthestrip

> Are you under the impression that the state gives them money in advance of the hiring and that they can just spend it or not however they see fit?


I know that they dont get money until employees are paid. But what benefit do we get by paying for Chesapeakes natural expansion during a boom only to have those jobs last a couple years and chk lays them off? What does the state get out of that? Chk wasnt moving out of state, they werent a company moving to our state, they were going to hire people regardless, the money itself didnt attract a new, long term tax paying Okie.

As I said up thread, Boeing incentives make some kind of sense (I have no real data so who knows) but the increasing amount of QJA money going to Oklahoma based companies who are expanding is wasteful IMO. We are paying them to do what they were going to do anyways. If we are going to do that, why doesnt every small business that hires an employee get to be in on this action too? Why only the bigger payroll companies? Why not subsidize every new job? Obviously Im being facetious but with the state continually expanding the limits of QJA, its become more of a drain that benefit.

----------


## gopokes88

> I know that they dont get money until employees are paid. But what benefit do we get by paying for Chesapeakes natural expansion during a boom only to have those jobs last a couple years and chk lays them off? What does the state get out of that? Chk wasnt moving out of state, they werent a company moving to our state, they were going to hire people regardless, the money itself didnt attract a new, long term tax paying Okie.
> 
> As I said up thread, Boeing incentives make some kind of sense (I have no real data so who knows) but the increasing amount of QJA money going to Oklahoma based companies who are expanding is wasteful IMO. We are paying them to do what they were going to do anyways. If we are going to do that, why doesnt every small business that hires an employee get to be in on this action too? Why only the bigger payroll companies? Why not subsidize every new job? Obviously Im being facetious but with the state continually expanding the limits of QJA, its become more of a drain that benefit.


QJA should be for jobs coming from out of state into the state and have time limits on how long they can be enacted for. If a company wants some help expanding into Oklahoma that's one thing, subsidizing companies employees because they are so amazing is silly and a waste of money.

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## Rover

So, we should encourage out of state companies to come in, but lose our current ones to states offering incentives?  It always amazes me that companies work so hard to get new customers and ignore their good current ones til they lose them.  Guess we want the state to act the same way.  Encouraging our already existing companies to grow and develop substantial levels of good new jobs should be a strategy.

By the way, the threshold for getting the incentive can be as low as hiring a few well paid employees, so you don't have to be a giant corp. to get it.  Find a way to expand your small business with say 15 engineers and you are right there.

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## Laramie

Quality Jobs Program Act is an' incentives' investment in Oklahoma.   We want to attract new jobs to Oklahoma; also, reward those existing companies that have been steadfast; those that continue to grow and expand its footprint in our state.

Oklahoma is making a sacrifice that will pay huge dividends for our future.

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## Prunesmoothie

New Boeing Building on 59th and Air Depot progressing...

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## Bellaboo

> QJA should be for jobs coming from out of state into the state and hav*e time limits on how long they can be enacted for*. If a company wants some help expanding into Oklahoma that's one thing, subsidizing companies employees because they are so amazing is silly and a waste of money.


I believe time limits are in effect. Max of ten years. 

I know that there are 3 different groups of Quality Jobs, encasing small business, rural business and the big boys.

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## Pete

Thanks!

Wow, that went up fast.

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## Zorba

> Thanks!
> 
> Wow, that went up fast.


It is supposed to have occupancy by mid to late May. They have started painting the building as well, with rollers  :Eek: 

Finally put in windows last week as well.

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## mimino

> Wow, that went up fast.


khm...khm... that's what she said (Leanne Caret that is).

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## blangtang

Boeing plans to cut up to 8,000 airplane jobs: sources | Reuters

does this affect OKC?

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## adaniel

It shouldn't...OKC ops are strictly defense related...this looks like commercial division layoffs.

But be warned that Boeing likes to have these  "reductions in force" from time to time.

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## Zorba

> Boeing plans to cut up to 8,000 airplane jobs: sources | Reuters
> 
> does this affect OKC?


Not directly. Other stories have talked about some jobs have been previously relocated out of Seattle, and many of those jobs were moved to OKC.  The stories out today all focus on Boeing Commercial Aircraft, which doesn't employ any one in OKC. Of course the need to "cut cost" so they can increase the dividend may lead to other job actions in Boeing Defense, but at least so far I haven't heard anything about that.

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## GaryOKC6

Their new facility opens in June and they are bringing in 900 jobs from Seattle and St. Louis.  They are having a difficult time finding aerospace employees.  There may be an opportunity to move some of the over.

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## GaryOKC6

They are also working on developing new aircraft for the military.  This new facility is research and development.  For example, the Army, Air force and Navy all use different fighter jets.  They are working on a new plane that will replace them all uniformly.

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## Zorba

> They are also working on developing new aircraft for the military.  This new facility is research and development.  For example, the Army, Air force and Navy all use different fighter jets.  They are working on a new plane that will replace them all uniformly.


Just to clear some things up, the only new production airplane Boeing is developing for the military is the KC-46, which is mostly being done in Seattle, after they moved all that work from Wichita there. Boeing lost the only new fighter competition in the last 15 years to Lockheed and they just lost the new bomber contract to Northrop. Regardless new airplanes are designed in Seattle or St. Louis. OKC is support, sustainment and modification for fielded large aircraft. 

The new building is going to have lab space for various support and sustainment activities, not new aircraft development. 

The new fighter you are thinking about is the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) and is being developed by Lockheed Martin in Ft. Worth, it was awarded to Lockheed in the late 90s. Once it fully goes into production, Boeing's fighters (F-15 and F-18) will no longer be procured by the US military, which will likely lead to mass layoffs in St. Louis, but could potentially benefit OKC as the sustainment work is moved from design groups to sustainment groups.

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## adaniel

Have they broke ground on the KC hangers at Tinker yet? I know the funding for all of this was approved so it should just be a matter of time?

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## Plutonic Panda

http://newsok.com/governor-company-l...rticle/5509740

http://www.news9.com/story/32457915/...ing-lab-in-okc

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## Prunesmoothie

Photo taken yesterday of Boeing's new building on 59th & Air Depot. Entrance is facing west.

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## Plutonic Panda

*Boeing OKC campus sells to California investors*




> OKLAHOMA CITY (KFOR) – In one of the largest commercial real estate transactions in Oklahoma City history, the Boeing Oklahoma City campus was sold for over $124 million today.
> 
> Richard Tanenbaum, CEO of Gardner Tanenbaum Holdings (GTH) which owns the campus, sold the property to OKC Aerospace 1, LLC for $124,735,000.
> 
> The property, consisting of three office buildings, is located directly west of Tinker Air Force Base.
> 
> “GTH has developed more than one million square feet of aerospace real estate in Oklahoma,” said Tanenbaum. “I continue to anticipate a bright horizon for the Oklahoma aerospace industry. Substantial investments from the west coast, such as this transaction, show that the nation is taking notice of the aerospace industry’s dynamic growth in our state.”
> 
> After purchasing the 33.25 acres, Tanenbaum invested in developing three buildings specifically for Boeing in 2007, 2011 and 2012. The buildings currently accommodate more than 3,155 Boeing employees and contractors who work with Tinker Air Force Base personnel performing support and modernization programs for U.S. defense aircraft.


- https://kfor.com/2020/01/08/boeing-o...nia-investors/

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/...0cecdf2f6.html

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## shawnw

hopefully a nice chunk of that 124M will be put into another nice local project here soon

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## Pete

^

A lot will be plowed into Lincoln Plaza.

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## shawnw

Cool. The Tannenbaum's are under appreciated in this city. Nice folks, too, having met the father and son when I was a tenant at the Classen. Not that I've loved all their choices, but they have definitely had a net positive impact in this town.

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## Zorba

> *Boeing OKC campus sells to California investors*
> 
> 
> 
> - https://kfor.com/2020/01/08/boeing-o...nia-investors/
> 
> https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/...0cecdf2f6.html


The employee count is a little misleading. That is the number of Boeing Employees in OKC total, not just in the three buildings that sold. There are a lot of employees at the newer building on the North side of 59th street and many stationed at Tinker.

Considering any future Boeing growth is likely to be across the street and these building likely wouldn't be that attractive to any other major employers, I am surprised at how much these sold for.

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## HangryHippo

Theres some dirt work ongoing just north of Boeings buildings at 59th. Is this a new building or just a parking lot?

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## HangryHippo

> There’s some dirt work ongoing just north of Boeing’s buildings at 59th. Is this a new building or just a parking lot?


Per the Oklahoman, this will be a new Boeing bay for work on the B-52.

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## gopokes88

https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/dev...=Boeing7_17_20

"This project and others at Boeing OKC will create openings for more than 300 engineers in 2020. This year, Boeing OKC has hired 190 engineers to date.  "

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## BoulderSooner

> Per the Oklahoman, this will be a new Boeing bay for work on the B-52.


the b-52 "high bay"  will be east of douglas

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## HangryHippo

> the b-52 "high bay"  will be east of douglas


Thank you for clarifying, Boulder. 

Any idea whats being built on the west side of Air Depot?

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## BoulderSooner

> Thank you for clarifying, Boulder. 
> 
> Any idea what’s being built on the west side of Air Depot?


That is more Boeing office/lab space

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## HangryHippo

Cool. Thanks!

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