# Civic Matters > Ask Anything About OKC >  What happened to NW OKC?

## ShiroiHikari

A few days ago, I got the chance to take a look at some vacant mid-century homes that are currently up for sale. One of them was near NW 10th and Rockwell. The house itself was really cool-- great landscaping in both the front and back yard, nice facade, great floor plan. It looked to be in decent shape for the most part (except that the front door had obviously been kicked in at some point). Most of the other houses in the immediate neighborhood also looked like they were well-kept (or at least, not poorly kept).

The rest of the surrounding area, though? It looked like a demilitarized zone. 

Driving east on NW 10th from MacArthur to Rockwell was one of the most depressing things I've done in a long time. There's very little retail to speak of-- it seems to be nothing but 1970s apartment complexes, several of which are boarded up and rotting, some with entire units that have been completely burnt out! 

In high school, I had a friend who lived in the NW 19th and MacArthur area. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s, the area wasn't bad. It wasn't great either, but it was certainly better than it is now. 

My question is: What happened here? I mean, pretty much everything north of I-40 and west of I-35 is rundown now. Does it have something to do with the downtown revitalization? Is it because everyone moved to Moore/SW OKC? What causes whole areas to decline so rapidly? Why did they build so many apartments there in the first place?

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## Achilleslastand

It has nothing to do with downtown and everything to do with demographics.

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## stlokc

I think it's a huge stretch to say everything north of I-40 and west of I-35 is rundown. That's -what - about 70% of OKC?

I will say this - I subscribe to Rudy Guiliani's broken window theory. When a neighborhood starts to go downhill, it needs to be addressed early or it starts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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## adaniel

Not sure what this has to do with the downtown rejuvenation. There are plenty of inner city neighborhoods that are north of 40 and west of 35 that are healthier than they've been in decades. 

Also, I think you are intermingling commercial areas and apartments with actual neighborhoods that people spend time in. No doubt a lot of commercial areas and apartments built in that area now look like crap, but that was throwaway development to begin with. That stuff wasn't meant to last 40 years. Most of the neighborhoods that are largely owner occupied still look fine.

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## OKCTalker

OKC's large geographic size has always cut both ways because land was relatively cheap, and over time, disposable. Don't forget that residential renters are fickle, and they'll move when they get a better offer from the newer place down the street. 

The bust of the 1980s left a "high water mark" of commercial development in NW OKC near 122nd & MacArthur/Rockwell. You could go there for years and find unfinished strip centers, sometimes with the buildings finished but not even concrete poured inside. It wasn't until many years later that development resumed, those places filled in, and expansion continued. Left behind were properties further in, like along Britton Road east of Lake Hefner, also run down. 

This is typical of urban development in large geographic cities.

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## Snowman

> Driving east on NW 10th from MacArthur to Rockwell was one of the most depressing things I've done in a long time. There's very little retail to speak of-- it seems to be nothing but 1970s apartment complexes, several of which are boarded up and rotting, some with entire units that have been completely burnt out!


At least few of those apartment complexes completely failed and were abandoned, which became a magnet for criminals to either move in or use them temporally, so various types of crimes would have spiked in the near vicinity. From what I heard from one city official was that most of the burning were either from manufacture of drugs on the premises or to destroy evidence of other crimes talking place there. They have been working on changing ordinariness since in cases like this it has been cheaper for the owners to just ignore the properties than fix, sell or doze it. 

It is also possible that the reduction of workforce at the old AT&T manufacturing plant starting probably in the eighties and eventual closing in the later nineties would have furthered the slide.

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## Steve

The answers are in this thread; the over building of apartment complexes that were then not maintained, the loss of high paying jobs at not just the AT&T plant, but also Dayton Tire, etc. And then add in the adult oriented businesses that opened up along with the Red Dog Saloon on NW 10....

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## ShiroiHikari

Let me be more specific. I'm mostly talking about the Putnam City/Bethany/Warr Acres part of town, but parts of that area are technically OKC. I'm not talking about anything north of NW Expressway. That's a whole different can of worms. 

Also, I did say that the neighborhood/subdivision was still looking pretty good for being 40-ish years old. The problem is the rest of the area. Why doesn't the city do something about the abandoned apartment complexes? If I've been informed correctly, that sort of thing affects home prices in a big way. Why let the whole area go to pot (no pun intended) when there are some nice neighborhoods there? The fact is that abandoned structures are crime magnets and the longer they let it sit, the more money and time it will cost to renew it in the future.

Edit: Didn't know there used to be an AT&T plant. I was born in 1983; cut me some slack.  :Tongue:  Also I had forgotten about the closure of Dayton Tire. That was definitely a blow.

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## Snowman

> Edit: Didn't know there used to be an AT&T plant.


It was the complex of buildings on the north east corner of Reno and Council.

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## ShiroiHikari

Oh yeah, I think I know the one-- near the new outlet mall, right? I was wondering what that used to be.

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## bchris02

I agree West OKC west of I-44 and south of 39th St is starting to look more and more like the Southside.  In the late '90s that wasn't the greatest area but it definitely wasn't as bad as it is today.  Now its downright ghetto in many places.

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## Snowman

> Oh yeah, I think I know the one-- near the new outlet mall, right? I was wondering what that used to be.


Yea, just north of the new mall

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## Spartan

More of NW OKC is still nice than people claim. It's just shocking because the wide swath from Bethany to Nichols Hills did used to be "the Edmond" of a bygone era.

East Cleveland in the 1800s was Millionaires Row, including Rockefeller. Now it's the most dangerous locality in Ohio (which says a lot). Far-out sprawl, no matter how nice, will ALWAYS decline...sometimes dramatically.

Edmond is nice now, for the most part. But in 50-75 years it probably won't be. Most everything along Boulevard has already gone to crap.

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## RoboNerd

> Oh yeah, I think I know the one-- near the new outlet mall, right? I was wondering what that used to be.


It's one of many monuments to Right-to-Work's success in Oklahoma. The empty tire plant about half a mile south of it is another one. That law sure didn't work out as advertised...

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## Jim Kyle

That's a bit of an overstatement. The Western Electric facility was a victim of the breakup of the original AT&T; it wasn't the only victim, either...

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## Steve

Lucent/Celestica, which owned the Western Electric plant when it closed, began winding down operations, preparing to shut it down in 2000; the Right to Work ballot was passed by voters in 2001.

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## stlokc

I will freely admit that I'm not terribly familiar with the area in question. From the comments in the thread, it would appear that the problems of this area are not so much the housing subdivisions as the commercial corridors - vacant buildings, blighted streetscapes, etc. My mind turns to Lincoln Blvd, and how a concerted effort to upgrade that corridor has begun to turn the tide. The neighborhoods surrounding that street are likely in much worse shape than the area in question, but leaving that aside, it's apparent that the Lincoln Blvd of today is an improvement over the Lincoln Blvd of my youth.

Gets me thinking - what if the city could focus like a laser beam on the commercial corridors of struggling areas? What would that look like? I'm just spitballing, but I'm thinking of the oft-discussed MAPS 4. If such a program could raise a billion dollars, what would $300 million or so do for NW 10, NW 23, NW 36? (In this idea, $300 million could go to NE OKC and $300 million to the inner southside - call it "MAPS for neighborhoods")

I wouldn't advocate clear cutting of the Lincoln Blvd variety - this area is not so far gone - but what if the city could take the money, marry it with other types of grants and programs and get to work? Could we purchase struggling shopping centers, rehabilitate them and sell them (a stretch)? Could we buy the vacant apartment complexes, raze them

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## stlokc

Wow. So frustrating time and again to pen a lengthy response only to have it erased and/or be told "I can't perform this action because I'm not logged in" even though I've logged out, logged in, and re-written three times. It finally posts and it only posts a portion of it. You'll have to just take my last post and imagine the rest. I promise I was pithy and intelligent  :Smile:  Good night.

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## RadicalModerate

> Driving east on NW 10th from MacArthur to Rockwell was one of the most depressing things I've done in a long time.


That _would_ be a bummer . . . Especially on account of Rockwell is west of MacArthur. 
Why . . . It would probably take about a year to make the one mile journey.
(on the other hand, if the journey rather than the destination is the main thing . . .  =)

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## Snowman

> Lucent/Celestica, which owned the Western Electric plant when it closed, began winding down operations, preparing to shut it down in 2000; the Right to Work ballot was passed by voters in 2001.


My dad worked at that plant for like thirty years and I can tell you that it's closing almost certainly had nothing to do with right to work. After it was bought by Celestica it was a shell of itself and the market for that equipment was getting bad soon to get worse, 2000 was also the height of the MCI fiasco and when the dot com bubble burst leaving overcapacity in telcom company's networks, which is the type of equipment they produced there, so the market went from multiple companies expanding their networks to virtually no one expanding for several years. There was rumors when Celestica bought them for to get the customer base than the manufacturing capability as Celestica had enough manufacturing capacity to fill both companies needs and many people were planning their next job, I can not say for certain that was their intent but their behavior after purchase was inline with those suspicions.

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## bchris02

> I will freely admit that I'm not terribly familiar with the area in question. From the comments in the thread, it would appear that the problems of this area are not so much the housing subdivisions as the commercial corridors - vacant buildings, blighted streetscapes, etc. My mind turns to Lincoln Blvd, and how a concerted effort to upgrade that corridor has begun to turn the tide. The neighborhoods surrounding that street are likely in much worse shape than the area in question, but leaving that aside, it's apparent that the Lincoln Blvd of today is an improvement over the Lincoln Blvd of my youth.
> 
> Gets me thinking - what if the city could focus like a laser beam on the commercial corridors of struggling areas? What would that look like? I'm just spitballing, but I'm thinking of the oft-discussed MAPS 4. If such a program could raise a billion dollars, what would $300 million or so do for NW 10, NW 23, NW 36? (In this idea, $300 million could go to NE OKC and $300 million to the inner southside - call it "MAPS for neighborhoods")
> 
> I wouldn't advocate clear cutting of the Lincoln Blvd variety - this area is not so far gone - but what if the city could take the money, marry it with other types of grants and programs and get to work? Could we purchase struggling shopping centers, rehabilitate them and sell them (a stretch)? Could we buy the vacant apartment complexes, raze them


I think in terms of suburban areas, the free market should be allowed to decide.  OKC should concentrate more police coverage in problem areas but I think any incentives to revitalize far west OKC would be better spent in the urban core or areas directly to the north.

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## Snowman

> Gets me thinking - what if the city could focus like a laser beam on the commercial corridors of struggling areas? What would that look like? I'm just spitballing, but I'm thinking of the oft-discussed MAPS 4. If such a program could raise a billion dollars, what would $300 million or so do for NW 10, NW 23, NW 36? (In this idea, $300 million could go to NE OKC and $300 million to the inner southside - call it "MAPS for neighborhoods")


I am not sure you can focus like a laser on the commercial corridors, most of the mile grid streets/arteries within the i240/i44/i35 interstate loop could stand some sort of improvement. Another thing that has not been helping the NW is more people seem to be getting concerned about Putnam City Schools.

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## mkjeeves

> I think in terms of suburban areas, the free market should be allowed to decide.  OKC should concentrate more police coverage in problem areas but I think any incentives to revitalize far west OKC would be better spent in the urban core or areas directly to the north.


Disagree. The idea we should continue to pour money into downtown and let the rest of the city rot is appalling. Especially considering the vast majority of city revenue comes from the areas we're talking about, NW OKC. There's property taxes generated downtown but there's little to no sales tax. The residents (who don't live downtown and have no intention of ever living downtown) have agreed through maps to work on downtown to a point and for a reason. I don't think most of the citizens would agree to make that the long term policy nor support leaders who act in that manner.

NW 10th should be on the slate for rehab all the way to Council. The city started on it and worked outward to Penn. They need to continue. If not, I'd suggest maybe they deannex everything west of Western and north of 23rd and we'll use our tax dollars to rework it ourselves.

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## bchris02

> Disagree. The idea we should continue to pour money into downtown and let the rest of the city rot is appalling. Especially considering the vast majority of city revenue comes from the areas we're talking about, NW OKC. There's property taxes generated downtown but there's little to no sales tax. The residents (who don't live downtown and have no intention of ever living downtown) have agreed through maps to work on downtown to a point and for a reason. I don't think most of the citizens would agree to make that the long term policy nor support leaders who act in that manner.
> 
> NW 10th should be on the slate for rehab all the way to Council. The city started on it and worked outward to Penn. They need to continue. If not, I'd suggest maybe they deannex everything west of Western and north of 23rd and we'll use our tax dollars to rework it ourselves.


It's not that all the money should be poured into downtown and the rest of the city let rot.  It's should that money be spent to revitalize a declining suburban area when the original demographic of that area have moved on to other suburban areas, most notable West Edmond and West Moore (OKC city limits)?  What do you propose should be done to revitalize that corridor?

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## mkjeeves

I disagree with the premise. The occupancy rate of homes in NW OKC is essentially the same as it's always been. (Apartments on 10th street notwithstanding.) NW OKC is not Detroit.

We didn't replace it with homes in other places. The homes are still there. People still live in them and will continue to live in them. We added homes in other places.

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## Bellaboo

> It's one of many monuments to Right-to-Work's success in Oklahoma. The empty tire plant about half a mile south of it is another one. That law sure didn't work out as advertised...


This was about the time that tires were made in Asia way less expensive than here, the same happend to the textile industry just a decade before. Right to work had little effect on either.

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## NWOKCGuy

> My question is: What happened here? I mean, pretty much everything north of I-40 and west of I-35 is rundown now. Does it have something to do with the downtown revitalization? Is it because everyone moved to Moore/SW OKC? What causes whole areas to decline so rapidly? Why did they build so many apartments there in the first place?


Did you mean to say west of I-44?  Plenty of good neighborhoods north of I-40 between 35 and 44.

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## Snowman

> Did you mean to say west of I-44?  Plenty of good neighborhoods north of I-40 between 35 and 44.


The bad areas may vary from street to street, it is not usually to find a pocket of one in the other. Areas may have made a comeback too, at one time the area around the capital and medical complex had as bad a reputation as anywhere in the city. The area between i235 and i35 also has had a ton of houses demolished that are still bare land, which indicates it had some extended bad times.

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## mkjeeves

> The area between i235 and i35


Not to be overly pedantic or that it matters much in the big picture, but that's not NW OKC.

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## Snowman

> Not to be overly pedantic or that it matters much in the big picture, but that's not NW OKC.


I was responding to others comments




> I mean, pretty much everything north of I-40 and west of I-35 is rundown now.





> Did you mean to say west of I-44? Plenty of good neighborhoods north of I-40 between 35 and 44.

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## mkjeeves

> I was responding to others comments


I know, as was I in part.

The real issue at hand demonstrated in this thread IMO is the acceptance of the effects of sprawl on the one hand with a half attempt to redirect public funds towards an urban center as the be all end all of the future. I get there's reasons to have a healthy core. But a properly managed city would place priority on existing established neighborhoods and infrastructure over new at distances further out. All of them. If the city does not have the means to do this, acquire blighted properties like we have along 10th street, make changes to roads and sidewalks and encourage revitalization, they need to divest themselves of some of the property they have under their management. That would not be cutting a donut out of the city and say, discarding everything from the urban core to maybe the 5 or 7 mile mark and keeping everything inside and out that's new and shiny with some particular desired demographic. It would be working on the urban core AND the donut first.

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## Snowman

> discarding everything from the urban core to maybe the 7 mile mark and keeping everything inside and out that's new and shiny with some particular desired demographic.


Even just dumping the agriculture zoned land is problematic, look at budget issues with Bethany or Warr Acers for what happens to a predominantly suburban city when all the develop-able land runs out. Part of why building more urban style seems like the most realistic alternative to hitting a wall eventually.

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## onthestrip

Condemning and demolishing some of the abandoned aparment complexes would certainly help along 10th street. Other than that Im not sure what you can do or would want to do. 

The outlet mall, Westgate, Francis Tuttle and expanding and/or new businesses along reno and south council might have somewhat of a positive impact in the coming years.

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## NWOKCGuy

> The bad areas may vary from street to street, it is not usually to find a pocket of one in the other. Areas may have made a comeback too, at one time the area around the capital and medical complex had as bad a reputation as anywhere in the city. The area between i235 and i35 also has had a ton of houses demolished that are still bare land, which indicates it had some extended bad times.


Sorry - meant 235 not 35.  The OP referenced everything west of 35. Lots of great historic neighborhoods that fall in that area.

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## ShiroiHikari

I apparently got mixed up on my directions. Sorry.

Basically, all I was trying to say is that NW 10th is depressing and that something ought to be done. Though I don't know why I even care; it's not like I live in that part of town anymore. If people that live up there are fine with it, then I suppose it's not a big deal.

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## Just the facts

urban sprawl = operation rolling ghetto.  All those new great places in Edmond and Moore - check them out in 20 more years.

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## progressiveboy

Perhaps it has to do with changing demographics and a population shift no longer able to sustain. Downtown OKC is getting better all the time along with Midtown, Lincoln Blvd, East Bricktown which I call front door to OKC. The flip side being the rest of OKC is marginal with small pockets of nice neighborhoods with large pockets of blight. It's asthetic appearance needs improvement, including the sorry roads. Why do residents stand for horrendous roads? Can anyone objectively answer this?

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## Plutonic Panda

I think if the right measures are taken, a suburb can last just as long as it's "parent" cities core can. I think it all comes down to the city leaders. I don't Edmond is going downhill anytime soon, neither do I think that about Norman. I don't know too much about Moore. I think Bethany/Warr Acres area was neglected for a long time. I don't believe that just happened. Time will tell though. Not only that, but our future leaders. OKC could hit the dirt just easily as Edmond could. The best example of this was Downtown OKC not too long ago.

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## Questor

I think it's the norm in OKC, not the exception, for older neighborhoods to look extremely run down.  There are definitely nice old neighborhoods, but there are a lot more that are not.  I think the root cause of this is the same reason why even neighborhoods that aren't that old all too quickly look like homes aren't being maintained properly... it's also the same reason no one pours money into updating the interiors of their homes here and just let things keep on like its 1999... homes are very cheap, there's a ton of land, and home builders keep on building.  There's more economic incentive to move into a brand new home every so many years than there is to stay.  It means you don't see many 1,000 square foot $500k homes, but it also means that you don't see many immaculately cared for, modernized older homes like you do on the West Coast.

It also means that usually the biggest appreciation is in new home markets during the first several years the neighborhood is new... but then kind of starts to level out the older the house gets.  Which keeps driving people with more money to newer neighborhoods.

Just what I've observed anyway.

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## bchris02

> I think it's the norm in OKC, not the exception, for older neighborhoods to look extremely run down.  There are definitely nice old neighborhoods, but there are a lot more that are not.  I think the root cause of this is the same reason why even neighborhoods that aren't that old all too quickly look like homes aren't being maintained properly... it's also the same reason no one pours money into updating the interiors of their homes here and just let things keep on like its 1999... homes are very cheap, there's a ton of land, and home builders keep on building.  There's more economic incentive to move into a brand new home every so many years than there is to stay.  It means you don't see many 1,000 square foot $500k homes, but it also means that you don't see many immaculately cared for, modernized older homes like you do on the West Coast.
> 
> It also means that usually the biggest appreciation is in new home markets during the first several years the neighborhood is new... but then kind of starts to level out the older the house gets.  Which keeps driving people with more money to newer neighborhoods.
> 
> Just what I've observed anyway.


To me, the homes in West OKC are more akin to the ones on the South side than they are to the historic, character-filled homes directly north of the urban core.  They are post-war tract homes that haven't stood the test of time.  I don't see them ever having the kind of historical value most pre-war homes do.  That is probably why you don't see the grassroots rush to gentrify West OKC like you do the 23rd st corridor.

I think even today's homes will stand the test of time moreso than most of the homes built in the 1950-1975 era.

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## adaniel

I'll say that for someone who prefers urban living, IMO the death of suburbs is/was highly exaggerated. Lots of people simply don't care for dense urban environments. More importantly, cities' troubled urban school districts will always give families pause. Towns that offer good schools, solid (but not always cheap) real estate, a diverse tax base, some culture and arts, and at least some measure of white collar employment with simple access to other job centers will always be in demand. In this area, I can really only think of Norman, and to a lesser extent Edmond, that meet these descriptions. There are plenty of homes in both towns built in the 1960-1985 time period that look great. 

Of course on the other end of the spectrum is the outposts of commuter oriented cheap housing centered around the occasional WalMart and some other big box stores. Who actually believes these places will last? They'll be abandoned once the next "it" place is discovered by the real estate industry. It frankly amazes me how people think Oklahoma is somehow insulated from these trends. So there will likely be a steady stream of crap development in the future. I drive through Moore and Yukon and think to myself, "What will this look like in 10 years?" Moore could go either way IMO if it could diversify its tax base, otherwise we'll be responding to a thread in 2023 asking What Happened to Moore.

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## krisb

> To me, the homes in West OKC are more akin to the ones on the South side than they are to the historic, character-filled homes directly north of the urban core.  They are post-war tract homes that haven't stood the test of time.  I don't see them ever having the kind of historical value most pre-war homes do.  That is probably why you don't see the grassroots rush to gentrify West OKC like you do the 23rd st corridor.
> 
> I think even today's homes will stand the test of time moreso than most of the homes built in the 1950-1975 era.


Here is another take on the value of "post-war tract homes." The "mid-century modest" neighborhoods offer an affordable piece of the American dream for working class families and young adults. These neighborhoods have real diversity as opposed to many of the gentrified neighborhoods in the urban core.

The Mid-Century Modest Manifesto ? Retro Renovation

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## RadicalModerate

point of clarification?  thank you.
when someone refers to "NW OKC" (as in the title of the thread)
what geographical boundaries are [they] (the OP) referring to?
(sorry, my bad: "to which definitional geographic boundaries are [they] referring?)

perhaps a better question might be: what opportunities for improvement does NW OKC offer . . .?
or . . . what is going to happen to NW OKC!

personally, i think that the relocation of the state fairgrounds from over on eastern to where it is now had something to do with all of it.  does NW OKC stop at about . . . 36th and May? . . . or is that too provincial?

dang. it's hard to know just what happened . . .

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## NoOkie

> I'll say that for someone who prefers urban living, IMO the death of suburbs is/was highly exaggerated. Lots of people simply don't care for dense urban environments.


I think it's also important to recognize that the urban core doesn't have all the jobs in the city.  My wife and I would commute longer if we lived in the core, with her in Edmond and myself working in NW OKC.  It just makes more sense for us to live near Hefner.  Our other option would really be SE Edmond.  While 10th has turned into a Ghetto, along with 122nd&Penn and some other pockets(MacArthur and Britton?  I forget where the ****ty apartments are over there) a good chunk of suburban NW OKC is still bland and unremarkably decent.  

Were I single, and without dogs, I'd probably want to live in the core.  Dogs rule out the condos and apartments as I'd rather leave mine in the backyard when weather permits than crate or risk them destroying the house.  When I lived in Douglas/Edgemere, it was nice and Western was close by, but the age of the house caused issues and the one bathroom is a huge pain in the ass.  Midtown seems to have the same 50's and earlier designs, so I'm assuming one bathroom and small rooms.

I live in suburbia as it minimizes the commute more than anything, but with our city it doesn't put me out of reach.  It's only 15 minutes to the core if I want to do something there, and only 10 minutes from the big box retail area if I want mindless consumption.  While I would certainly like more ped/bike infrastructure and some neat restaurants and shops to walk to, I'd rather they come to me than the other way around.

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## Just the facts

You guys are over thinking this.  The main problem is that we can't afford to maintain suburbia.  I can get a loan for a BMW 750 but if I can't afford the $250 oil change every 3,000 miles how long is it going to look nice?  Somewhere I have a presentation from StrongTowns that explains why suburbia can't be maintained and will always fall into disrepair.  When I find it I will post it.

Found it.

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## mkjeeves

> Here is another take on the value of "post-war tract homes." The "mid-century modest" neighborhoods offer an affordable piece of the American dream for working class families and young adults. These neighborhoods have real diversity as opposed to many of the gentrified neighborhoods in the urban core.
> 
> The Mid-Century Modest Manifesto ? Retro Renovation


Not to mention homes built earlier have undersized and substandard-for-today knob and tube wiring; the worst of the lead paint varieties; decentralized and antiquated heating and cooling systems; no insulation or insulation that has collapsed; frequently asbestos insulation in the attic, on piping, siding and roofing and other features that are great when they are brought up to the standards of the post war tract homes and beyond.

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## mkjeeves

> You guys are over thinking this.  The main problem is that we can't afford to maintain suburbia.  I can get a loan for a BMW 750 but if I can't afford the $250 oil change every 3,000 miles how long is it going to look nice?  Somewhere I have a presentation from StrongTowns that explains why suburbia can't be maintained and will always fall into disrepair.  When I find it I will post it.


Please define the mile marker from downtown OKC where you would propose suburbia starts and is no longer viable.

BTW, my home is about 7 miles from downtown and I live, work, shop, go to the doctor etc all much closer together than I can go to downtown OKC and probably much closer together than most people who live and work in downtown can do those things.

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## Just the facts

It isn't a function of distance.  It is a function tax collection being able to fund the infrastructure necessary to support the development.  If it cost you more  to go to work than you earn at work how long can you keep that job?

There is a good quote in the video.  If you lose money on every transaction you can't make it up in volume.

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## mkjeeves

> It isn't a function distance.  It is a function tax collection being able to fund the infrastructure.  If it cost you more to go to work than you earn at work how long can you keep that job?
> 
> There is a good quote in the video.  If you lose money on every transaction you can't make it up in volume.


That's the point. It doesn't cost more for me to go to work, to shop, to do my daily activities, than I can earn.

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## Snowman

> That's the point. It doesn't cost more for me to go to work, to shop, to do my daily activities, than I can earn.


His point was it probably costs the city more to maintain services to any suburban property than it will ever collect from that citizen or business. So while they may make money the first few decades they are loosing money on the vast majority if not all property in the suburban areas as it comes time for maintenance.

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## mkjeeves

I understand the issue completely. It isn't true for most of the area we are talking about. The area we are talking about is 90% of the revenue generation for OKC. 

Cut my particular area out, just south of Bethany, along with all the businesses just south of Bethany, and Bethany would gladly take on the revenue and the management. That probably makes a lot more sense than having it managed by OKC anyway. It would be 7 miles closer.

I get the ideas. The simple minded 'let it rot and pour it all into downtown' isn't the answer.

New Urbanism is as much about connected centers of activity than one central place of activity.

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## bchris02

Well for starts maybe the apartments should be demolished. As with 122nd and Penn, it seems like every time a ton of apartment complexes get built in one concentrated area that area goes downhill.

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## Just the facts

> I understand the issue completely. It isn't true for most of the area we are talking about. The area we are talking about is 90% of the revenue generation for OKC.


.

Maybe so but it is 93% of the cost.  It is hard to have good school system when so much of the available money goes to build new schools on the fringe.  Go look at the millions spent on a new subdivision and ask yourself how nice existing parts of town would be if those resources had been spent there instead.

----------


## mkjeeves

> .
> 
> Maybe so but it is 93% of the cost.  It is hard to have good school system when so much of the available money goes to build new schools on the fringe.


Again. Define the fringe of OKC and provide a cite specific to OKC finances that shows the area we are talking about is not affordable with the taxes that are generated by the same area.

We've been talking generally about close in NW OKC, Bethany, Warr Acres, PC school areas. post war building etc. Stick with that and back up your assertions with some facts. Are those areas in your definition of fringe that do not generate enough taxes to pay for their upkeep?

----------


## Just the facts

If the area we are talking about generate the revenue to pay for their upkeep then why do you think they are becoming run down?

----------


## mkjeeves

> If the area we are talking about generate the revenue to pay for their upkeep then why do you think they are becoming run down?


That's been well covered up thread, the ease of sprawling further out, including commuting from new homes even far outside the city limits and into other city limits like Edmond and Guthrie. The willingness to spend our extra dollars generated in my part of the city to revitalize other parts of the city like downtown. That money wasn't generated downtown, it was surplus generated by the rest of OKC.

And has been pointed out, the area is not in Detroit type decline. It has seen improvements, new commercial areas from MacArthur to Council, the ATT plant has some new tenants and parts have been recently upgraded for office space. I have three new houses across the street from my house in the post war neighborhood and I just spent $40K remodeling mine in the last few years. We saw fit to afford Maps for kids and there is a new middle school to replace the older one at Council Grove and others in the neighborhood have been upgraded.

Now, how about the facts I asked you for?

----------


## RadicalModerate

> Well for starts maybe the apartments should be demolished. As with 122nd and Penn, it seems like every time a ton of apartment complexes get built in one concentrated area that area goes downhill.


Re-reading this post reminded me of the day at least a couple of decades ago when I was driving east on 122nd and saw that the entire area to to the north--in the vicinity of Penn, that had previously been pristine countryside--was now covered by concrete slabs sprouting plumbng "trees" . . . my first thought was, "dang! that don't look right" but then--since I was a carpenter (actually a framer and cornice guy) by trade it started to look like potential dollar signs.  Interestingly, not long ago, The Village razed a ton of apartments that might have been raised at about the same time.  I'm not sure, because back then I lived way out in Eastern Oklahoma County.

----------


## mkjeeves

> Re-reading this post reminded me of the day at least a couple of decades ago when I was driving east on 122nd and saw that the entire area to to the north--in the vicinity of Penn, that had previously been pristine countryside--was now covered by concrete slabs sprouting plumbng "trees" . . . my first thought was, "dang! that don't look right" but then--since I was a carpenter (actually a framer and cornice guy) by trade it started to look like potential dollar signs.  Interestingly, not long ago, The Village razed a ton of apartments that might have been raised at about the same time.  I'm not sure, because back then I lived way out in Eastern Oklahoma County.


When my grandparents bought their house at 32nd and Shartel it was the north fringe of OKC.

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## RadicalModerate

In hindsight, in order to achieve the desired urban density that some dream about, I suppose that The Planners back then should have erected a giant wall--or iron curtain--up around 36th Street, so that the dreaded sprawl could be avoided and a lot more high rises (like the ones that Lucy and Desi and The Honeymooners lived in) could have been built.  Somehow I don't think that Heritage Hills, Crown Heights and Mesta Park would have the same "charm" they have today if that plan would have been implemented, but . . . =)

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## mkjeeves

> if


Yeah. JTF used that word upthread too and I started to mention that it's a little late. We did. Can't put it back in the bottle nor pretend we didn't. The better course than this nonsense that we're going to abandon everything at the 'fringe', 

(10th street and out? 23rd street and out? 36th street and out? 236th street and out?)

would be to determine the best way to preserve the huge investments we have made in buildings, housing and supporting infrastructure and steward them into connected areas of centralized activity and checking compounding the problem as best as can be done. That does not mean put everyone and all the commerce downtown. That means more people doing as I do, living, working, shopping in the same general area with connections to other areas and to do that closer to town with existing areas than to continue to sprawl more and more. That means putting jobs where the people live and shop. 

It would be better to project 180 tenth street from downtown out and encourage redevelopment along that entire corridor and as a connector between areas than ignore it and continue to build farther out.

----------


## Just the facts

Building a wall doesn't help.  Even walled villages in medieval England eventually spilled outside the walls.  The trick is to build places that people don't want to abandon in droves.

----------


## Just the facts

So the debate is how we retro-fit suburbia?  That is interesting topic but the jury is still out on how to do it and if doing it is cost effective.  I don't think it is and I suspect we will eventually pull a Detroit and start plowing it under.

You might find this interesting.

----------


## Dubya61

> So the debate is how we retro-fit suburbia?  That is interesting topic but the jury is still out on how to do it and if doing it is cost effective.  I don't think it is and I suspect we will eventually pull a Detroit and start plowing it under.
> 
> You might find this interesting.


I'm certainly less experienced in this debate than you, JTF, but I think that Moore will take the lead on retrofitting suburbia.  Starting with their new central park, Moore has the chance to embrace urbanism in the suburbs.  Of course, Moore HAS to.  They can't sprawl any further.  They HAVE to make the most of their limited acreage.  It's entirely possible and very likely that it won't meet the desired standards (I STILL love Sid's recommendations for how Moore can make the most of their new central park), but it won't take long before Moore really discovers that it can't grow more tax revenue -- it'll have to earn them.  Although Choctaw's not in the same boat, it's on the verge of a very good chance that will probably turn into a learning opportunity (you know, what-doesn't-kill-you-makes-you-stronger-type of learning opportunity) with their new WalMart city center.  Obviously it's not going to be right on the center of the target of where it could be, but their new ... what? City Center could develop into an urbanism oasis regardless of WalMart.  It was suggested in another thread and dissed and shot down in another, but I think OKC should de-annex a lot.  The fear is that we will become a land-locked city, but then won't we eventually learn that we really only have so much acreage that we can earn taxes on and we must make the most of them?  If we can just sit it out and not make any bigger mistakes, OKC could survive and retrofit suburbia without I.M. Pei-style plowing it under.  In my little ideal world, Moore and Choctaw proceed and see what they've got.  With a little (or a lot, depending on how far off the mark they go) demolition, it'll become what it should.  Again, Moore has no real choice.  Isn't that what OKC and their OKC-city-limit-suburbs could do?  Plant a seed of urbanism where there's a chance to do so logically and let people and private developers do the heavy lifting of making it work.  It'd take a good hard look at OKC.  Maybe somewhere around the AT&T plant, attempt to encourage a REAL lifestyle center -- not a huge one, but one that can set an example.  Maybe do something with Shepherd Mall and urbanize it a bit.  None of these should detract from any efforts to make the CBD a beacon of what we want OKC to be for urbanism, but siphon of just a little of the assets and effort to some of these areas.  Then, in a few years when we are looking at Deep Deuce, MidTown and SOSA or eve HubCap Alley and Capitol Hill and saying, "Wow, Those are FANTASTIC -- now what?", you'd have a fledgling urban center at the AT&T Lifestyle center to direct your efforts to.

JTF:  You've had some GREAT ideas for Midwest City and the Heritage Parks Mall area.  Give us one more.  Let's say you had a low-order clone that needed a project.  You don't want to give him too many assets that you need to revitalize the CBD, but you're willing to give him some just to busy him productively elsewhere.  Where are you going to put him inside the OKC City Limits to start preaching and proselytizing and maybe converting and selling ideas to developers to make that spot better for OKC?  Is it in the as-yet-undefined NW OKC?  Does he need to go to the Farmer's Market and help out? or does CaptDave have that covered?  Does he start his mission in Captiol Hill?  I-240 corridor?  Does he just go to the belly of the beast and solve Crossroads Mall?  I'm curious where you'd put your fictional missionary.

Or am I so miserably off the mark that we need to just bull-doze it all?  I'm not baiting you.  I'm giving you an easy way out.

----------


## Just the facts

Good stuff Dubya61.  In my opinion the greatest opportunity at revitalization in metro OKC is Del City.  They are at 100% build out and their only viable solution is to densify.  Like you said, the easy money from "growth" is over for them.  New developments in Del City will have to generate more tax dollars than they consume and the only way to do that is increase density.

----------


## mkjeeves

> So the debate is how we retro-fit suburbia?  That is interesting topic but the jury is still out on how to do it and if doing it is cost effective.  I don't think it is and I suspect we will eventually pull a Detroit and start plowing it under.
> 
> You might find this interesting.


Yeah that too. Here's some what if for you. What would it have been like if we could have twisted CHK's arm to drop a building every few miles instead of all in one place (which isn't downtown, I might add). We both know most of what gets done over there isn't face to face.

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## Plutonic Panda

JTF, just to understand, you want to do away with suburbia entirely? I like urbanism and it certainly has its place. But, in every great city I think there should be great suburbs that provide people with options. I love the suburbs because I have a nice open yard I can look out of, a nice big house, the overall environment seems more open and I think it is more relaxing to me. Now, I know there are benefits to living in an urban environment, but I like a city with options.

----------


## Just the facts

CHK missed s huge opportunity to build a place that was really special.  For some reason they chose not to.  The same thing happened near Tinker.  They chose office buildings surrounded by a sea of parking when they had the foundation for one heck of a mixed use environment.  The same now goes for UNP.

Meanwhile, they broke ground last week in Alpharetta on a $600 million mixed use project called Pioneer Sq.  If only the people in OKC with money weren't stuck in 1960.

----------


## Just the facts

> JTF, just to understand, you want to do away with suburbia entirely? I like urbanism and it certainly has its place. But, in every great city I think there should be great suburbs that provide people with options. I love the suburbs because I have a nice open yard I can look out of, a nice big house, the overall environment seems more open and I think it is more relaxing to me. Now, I know there are benefits to living in an urban environment, but I like a city with options.


That's great and you should be able to live that way, but you should also have a neighborhood urban cluster you can walk to that supports all your daily living essentials.  Having a yard shouldn't also require you to own a car.

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## mkjeeves

We might as well what-if about Devon too. They built a giant new central location for jobs in the middle of an area that has no housing and no real shopping. The work force either has to commute, abandon what is already built and/or build something else all over again. That's great for people who want to do that and not so much for everyone else.

----------


## LandRunOkie

People's job dictate their housing much more than the other way around.  There is plenty of housing in the downtown area.  Devon Tower didn't kill the suburbs, they just got old.

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## mkjeeves

> People's job dictate their housing much more than the other way around.


yep. I think we are in agreement about how important that is.




> There is plenty of housing in the downtown area.  Devon Tower didn't kill the suburbs, they just got old.


Nope, they didn't kill the burbs. Most of the Devon jobs were already downtown. Most of their employees commuted before and will continue to commute as long as they can afford to.

It's a missed opportunity to do something different. Instead, we will do what we are going to do with those jobs downtown.

----------


## Just the facts

I suspect that over time many Devon employees will be moving either downtown or in one of the downtown ajacent neighboroods (DD, Midtown, Bricktown, SOSA, C2S) as more housing comes on-line.  With the addition of the streetcar and regional rail the urban core of OKC will become the most desirable location to live in the entire state.

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## mkjeeves

> I suspect that over time many Devon employees will be moving either downtown or in one of the downtown ajacent neighboroods (DD, Midtown, Bricktown, SOSA, C2S) as more housing comes on-line.  With the addition of the streetcar and regional rail the urban core of OKC will become the most desirable location to live in the entire state.


That's what I just said in post 69.

----------


## Just the facts

> That's what I just said in post 69.


If a person sees no problem with sprawl, what difference does it make to them if new housing is built at the existing core or at the suburban fringe?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> That's great and you should be able to live that way, but you should also have a neighborhood urban cluster you can walk to that supports all your daily living essentials.  Having a yard shouldn't also require you to own a car.


Okay I thought you were completely against living the way period. I understand what your talking about now.

----------


## NoOkie

> That's great and you should be able to live that way, but you should also have a neighborhood urban cluster you can walk to that supports all your daily living essentials.  Having a yard shouldn't also require you to own a car.


This is kind of ideal, for me.  One of the things I really liked about the part of Portland I visited(east-ish, I think) is that there were little "small town mainstreets" dotted along the main road that fed the area.  Every few miles, you'd have some street side parking, a cafe or a sandwich shop, a few small retail places and frequently a grocery store.

Honestly, if we had some sidewalks, where I live would be pretty close to that.  At the corner of May and Hefner, there's that shopping center with a few restaurants and some retail.  Admittedly, the retail is kind of lame, but at least it's there.  122nd and May you have that Homeland and some more retail.  The Homeland is one of the really bad ones, but at least it's there.  If there was a convenient way to get there, I might shop at it a bit more.  As is, I do wander over to the Hefner shopping center for bagels or the occasional game of laser tag with the kids.

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## Just the facts

> Okay I thought you were completely against living the way period. I understand what your talking about now.


Imagine a Plaza District every mile or so.  Give me some time to post a couple of related Ted Talk videos and you will get a better idea of what I envision.

Kent Larson: Brilliant designs to fit more people in every city




Here is one on tentpole density.  Feel free to ignore the climate chnage stuff (I do).
Alex Steffen: The shareable future of cities

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## mkjeeves

> If a person sees no problem with sprawl, what difference does it make to them if new housing is built at the existing core or at the suburban fringe?


Who are you referring to, urban planners, developers, business owners, people who might build one place or the other?

The question I was raising was new construction (with or without commuting) vs reuse existing without commuting by placing jobs at existing neighborhoods.

Certainly new construction and get rid of commuting is better than new construction and even more commuting. New construction with the plan to abandon what has been built and could have been used with a different plan is wrong by many measures.

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## Just the facts

> Certainly new construction and get rid of commuting is better than new construction and even more commuting. New construction with the plan to abandon what has been built and could have been used with a different plan is wrong by many measures.


Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home.  Talking with several people in the office I found that a good 40 people or so in our office (about 500 employees) lived in that general area.  I asked what the likelyhood would be that the company could lease an office in the area so we wouldn't have to commute so far.  It seemed like a good idea to me but apparently they already tried that and it didn't work.  It seems that since people were already williing to drive 40 miles to the office they started moving even further away to place like Eljay to escape the sprawl of metro Atlanta and many employees ended up with 20 mile drives anyhow.  Chasing the employee didn't work because the employee kept moving.  I now know that chasing the employee (and customer) is what drove retail and companies out of downtown in the first place.

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## mkjeeves

> Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home.  Talking with several people in the office I found that a good 40 people or so in our office (about 500 employees) lived in that general area.  I asked what the likelyhood would be that the company could lease an office in the area so we wouldn't have to commute so far.  It seemed like a good idea to me but apparently they already tried that and it didn't work.  It seems that since people were already williing to drive 40 miles to the office they started moving even further away to place like Eljay to escape the sprawl of metro Atlanta and many employees ended up with 20 mile drives anyhow.  Chasing the employee didn't work because the employee kept moving.  I now know that chasing the employee (and customer) is what drove retail and companies out of downtown in the first place.


Yep. But you just completely undermined your unaffordable oil change argument. Which way do you want to go from here? How is it going to be before the end life of the decisions we have made and are making now?

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## Just the facts

Yep - like I said, that was back when I thought differently.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

I have been in norman for the past 4+ years going to school, but I grew up in NW OKC around the NW expressway-rockwell-hefner area.  I don't go back often since my family has moved away, but when I do, it doesn't seem like much has changed.  However, I do hear from alot of kids currently at Hefner and PC North that the schools are getting bad.  Granted, I remember fights and drug searches, but they make it sound much worse.

All of this has crossed my mind before though, and having grown up in one of the many 1970 era neighborhoods, I worry about what the area will come to be in 20 years.  If homeowners stay and don't rent out their properties, I believe the area can stay nice. But I know it is alot more complicated then that.  Apartment complexes are also an issue.  I hate saying that, because i know that the majority of residents cause no harm.  My neighborhood (Rock Knoll) though was a perfect example of how apartments (Britton Courtyard) can ruin a nearby neighborhood.  My family had enough when there was a shooting at the end of our street.

One thing I do love about the area though is the massive amount of diversity.  The fact that section 8 housing and 500k homes all are within the same school district was interesting, and it definitely helped expose me to things that have positively shaped who I am.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

About PC schools though, I get the sense that they continue to have top notch teachers, which was my experience.  It is simply the trouble brought in by kids who misbehave that is causing the issues.

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## Teo9969

I tried to read through the whole thread, but there was a lot, so I'm going to throw some thoughts out there...sorry if they've already been represented.

Even if we're only talking about the area NW of the Urban Core (N of I-40 and W I-44/I-235) that is such a broad stroke as to be meaningless. There are many really really nice areas on the NW side of the city and many really really bad areas.

If I had to categorize the most run down it would be in the box east of County Line/west of Portland/north of Reno/south of 23rd. And yes, it's getting pretty bad. There are other pockets like Wilshire/Rockwell, Penn/Hefner-122nd, Western/Britton. 

The surrounded burbs like Bethany and Warr Acres are actually not that bad. Nothing great, but they maintain themselves well enough to stay consistent. It may be beneficial, as someone else alluded to/proposed earlier, to sell off some of the land to those burbs and let them take on the revitalization of those areas.

The area that OKC needs to really fight to maintain is the Putnam City North area. There are quite a few nice neighborhoods in the area (Warwick, Lansbrook, Blue Stem, Ski Island) that can provide plenty of opportunity to keep the area alive and well. But being a graduate of PCN, I've heard nothing but that it has gone downhill, and that concerns me for the viability of the NW side of the city south of Memorial. It's really not that far from the Urban Core, and long term, it seems the most likely place for good sustainable growth to occur as OKC gets bigger.

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## 1972ford

Leave these places alone at least we know where the criminals are.  Just tear down the burnt down apartments and make that area titty bat row or whatever

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## RadicalModerate

> Leave these places alone at least we know where the criminals are.  Just tear down the burnt down apartments and make that area titty bat row or whatever


"titty BAT row?" . . . (would tearing down the burnt down apartments destory their habitat? are there any natural caves in the vicinity? are these animals still able to fly?)

(i nominate that for Best Typo of the Year . . . if, of course, it was a typo . . .)

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## RadicalModerate

> Back when I thought differently we were planning to build a house in the Great Sky subdivision in Canton, GA and I was going to drive 40 miles to work in Atlanta and 40 miles home . . .


From the Classic Film "True Stories" by David Byrne (back around 1983) . . .

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## bchris02

I am all for density and walkable neighborhoods, but I would never want to sacrifice the freedom of having a car to be at the mercy of public transportation to get around. I'm sure I am not the only person who feels that way.

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## NoOkie

> I am all for density and walkable neighborhoods, but I would never want to sacrifice the freedom of having a car to be at the mercy of public transportation to get around. I'm sure I am not the only person who feels that way.


I've spent some time "at the mercy of public transportation".  If a system is well designed, it's not a problem at all.  And you can always keep a car in the garage for long trips/big grocery runs/etc.  It just makes you not depend on it as much.

If we had reliable and well designed public transit, I wouldn't be getting ready to buy a 2nd car.

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## mkjeeves

My son moved to Chicago a few years ago. They used to live downtown but moved to Wrigleyville last year. They walk, bike, bus, train or cab almost everywhere, in that order of use pretty much, as do we when we visit. But they kept one car when they moved there and use it for some trips still, like a trip to Ikea in the burbs, or a weekend out of town to a nearby burg. (They rent and have a spot to park but they have shopped for downtown condos. Parking spots are frequently priced separately and cost about $25K to $30K additional for a spot in the building's garage.)

They both grew up here but now when they get back to OKC they complain about all the time they have to spend behind the wheel to get around town.

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## RadicalModerate

> My son moved to Chicago a few years ago. They used to live downtown but moved to Wrigleyville last year. They walk, bike, bus, train or cab almost everywhere, in that order of use pretty much, as do we when we visit. But they kept one car when they moved there and use it for some trips still, like a trip to Ikea in the burbs, or a weekend out of town to a nearby burg. (They rent and have a spot to park but they have shopped for downtown condos. Parking spots are frequently priced separately and cost about $25K to $30K additional for a spot in the building's garage.)
> 
> They both grew up here but now when they get back to OKC they complain about all the time they have to spend behind the wheel to get around town.


"Wrigleyville"?  THEY didn't build an IKEA within walkable/sidewalk enhanced distance of Wrigleyville??

"Jeeves!  Text the Rickshaw attendant immediately! I wish to make a trip to IKEA . . . You know, the one on the fourteeth floor of that tower where The Red Dog used to be . . . chop chop . . ."

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## mkjeeves

Hard to believe isn't it?

This is really getting off topic but you know there was a bunch of talk the other day about how people won't change levels to shop retail. They have all kinds of businesses on upper and lower floors in Chicago. I believe there is a downtown Home Depot spanning several floors of a high rise and I don't think ground level is one of them. The local Whole Foods has a shopping cart escalator in it too.

/drift.

----------


## Spartan

> Disagree. The idea we should continue to pour money into downtown and let the rest of the city rot is appalling. Especially considering the vast majority of city revenue comes from the areas we're talking about, NW OKC. There's property taxes generated downtown but there's little to no sales tax. The residents (who don't live downtown and have no intention of ever living downtown) have agreed through maps to work on downtown to a point and for a reason. I don't think most of the citizens would agree to make that the long term policy nor support leaders who act in that manner.
> 
> NW 10th should be on the slate for rehab all the way to Council. The city started on it and worked outward to Penn. They need to continue. If not, I'd suggest maybe they deannex everything west of Western and north of 23rd and we'll use our tax dollars to rework it ourselves.


If you think you don't need downtown, you should probably leave the city limits. Edmond or Piedmont don't need downtown. Of course, downtown Edmond might make you angry, but it's still not too significant.

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## RadicalModerate

> Hard to believe isn't it?
> 
> This is really getting off topic but you know there was a bunch of talk the other day about how people won't change levels to shop retail. They have all kinds of businesses on upper and lower floors in Chicago. I believe there is a downtown Home Depot spanning several floors of a high rise and I don't think ground level is one of them. The local Whole Foods has a shopping cart escalator in it too.
> 
> /drift.


So . . . I hope they designed-in chutes or whatever to handle forty story drops of 24'+ 2x12s in a safe manner. Not to mention other stuff, such as pallets of concrete mix . . . Are deliveries made by hoisting semi-trailers suspended from zepplins? Or do the Keebler elves take care of the details?

Never mind: All things are possible in Wrigglyville . . . =)

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## soonerfan_in_okc

> If you think you don't need downtown, you should probably leave the city limits. Edmond or Piedmont don't need downtown. Of course, downtown Edmond might make you angry, but it's still not too significant.


How the hell do you get that from his post??  He simply was saying that supporting downtown and ignoring NW OKC isn't a good idea.

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## Tritone

Two things:  First, I was a child of the 50s and 60s near NW 10th and Mac Arthur (both two lane streets back then).  When I drive through there now I just want to cry.  Second, as a Cubs fans I do hope anything is possible in Wrigleyville.  Maybe this year...

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## mkjeeves

> How the hell do you get that from his post??  He simply was saying that supporting downtown and ignoring NW OKC isn't a good idea.


Both reading comprehension fail and ignoring the posts where I said specifically I get the need for a strong downtown. I also voted to subsidize it with my tax dollars. That's right,we voted to subsidize the downtown improvements with tax dollars generated elsewhere, not that downtown paid it's own way and sure isn't paying for the burdensome burbs like some would have us believe.

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## RadicalModerate

At the risk of repeating myself (on account of I'm old) . . . What if this thread had been titled something along the lines of: "What are the Wonderful Opportunities for The Northwest Quadrant of Oklahoma City?" rather than (paraphrased) "What [didn't happen] to NW OKC?"  It may sound hackneyed and corny, but doesn't the way you approach a situation actually make a difference?  (nah . . . scratch that . . . chalk it up to 'crazy talk' . . . =)

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## mkjeeves

> So . . . I hope they designed-in chutes or whatever to handle forty story drops of 24'+ 2x12s in a safe manner. Not to mention other stuff, such as pallets of concrete mix . . . Are deliveries made by hoisting semi-trailers suspended from zepplins? Or do the Keebler elves take care of the details?
> 
> Never mind: All things are possible in Wrigglyville . . . =)


I'm pretty sure if you can't walk out with it under your arm it gets delivered. No way are vehicles going to pull up one after another on a busy downtown street during regular hours and load up. I didn't go inside and check it out but I did ask my son about it.

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## zookeeper

> Two things:  First, I was a child of the 50s and 60s near NW 10th and Mac Arthur (both two lane streets back then).  When I drive through there now I just want to cry.  Second, as a Cubs fans I do hope anything is possible in Wrigleyville.  Maybe this year...


I know just how you feel. For me it was another neighborhood but the same results.

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## mkjeeves

These multistory stores are local to Wrigleyville. I don't think that's the Home Depot I remembered closer to downtown and it does have direct access at ground level. Looks like there might be some back parking but other than that, it's curbside. Most shoppers would be taking mass trans or walking and having larger orders delivered. The only time I visited a hardware store when they lived downtown we walked to an Ace Hardware and had some paint mixed and walked back to their condo. Were they doing a remodel, they would have had a delivery brought up the freight elevator. Same thing they do when they have bought furniture at Ikea in the burbs.

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## Rom

I grew up in Bethany.  Went to school at PCWest.  Our first house we bought was in Brownsville, a nice neighborhood in Bethany.
I wanted to make Bethany work, not leave my roots.  But the drive from I-40 to 39 on Council became too much for the wife.  Everyday she'd say we've got to get out of here.  I don't feel safe at the grocery stores.  This is Bethany we are talking about. 
Sure enough we took the great white flight to Edmond and built a beautiful house in Red Bud Canyon.  I still drive thru Bethany and realize we made the right choice.  PC West is now one of the poorest schools in the state, I think they have close to 90% government assisted breakfasts.
It's too simple to say the apartments killed Bethany but they sure didn't help.  I really don't recognize that town from where it was 15 years ago.

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## rezman

I grew up in War Acres, and have lived in the Okc area all my life. I went to Putnam City Schools, and gratuated from PC West. My dad worked for Western Electric for 38 years and moved here in 1958. He  worked in the WE plant when it was over on 39th Between Portland and Tulsa, before the plant on Reno & Council was built. 

Back in the 60's the the 10th street corridor between Meridian and Council was already on a down hill slide, and was known as a rough area. But back in the trees, on both sides of 10th street were, and still are a lot of nice homes built before the 60's back when that area was all rural.

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## 1972ford

If you live right the Bethany or warr acres police stations and are willing and capable of homeschooling your kids there's not a better place to live here.  Your kids can walk around the neighborhood and to the park just like we did when we were kids especially around the warr acres station.  I'm always seeing 10 to 20 kids running around outside school hours I see that no where else around town unless there are a bunch of adults around

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## SSEiYah

What happened? 

Section 8 apartments took over the area, after it was too crime ridden, the apartments were abandoned, residents moved from 10th to the burb's in areas on the nw side like 122nd/penn, lyrewood area, and britton/rockwell. Yes, the crime followed.

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## Midtowner

The crime is pretty much concentrated into those low-income housing areas.  Being a resident of NW OKC, I don't really see a crime problem.

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## zookeeper

> The crime is pretty much concentrated into those low-income housing areas.  Being a resident of NW OKC, I don't really see a crime problem.


Except if you live in Ward One and see what's happening in these outer areas, you would be very concerned. The criminals in these apartments spill into the neighborhoods surrounding them and steal during the day, vandalize cars at night, congregate in large groups and intimidate people. It's all forcing people to flee the entire area and home prices plummet and then those entire neighborhoods are ghettos that were very nice not that long ago. During the years of zero down minority targeting mortgages these neighborhoods went to hell. Those pockets are getting bigger and that's what scares alot of people. Ask around about the student populations at the PC high schools and the large percentage of transient students from nearby apartments and crummy housing. It's all sad but it's a valid concern.

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## UncleCyrus

> Wow. So frustrating time and again to pen a lengthy response only to have it erased and/or be told "I can't perform this action because I'm not logged in" even though I've logged out, logged in, and re-written three times. It finally posts and it only posts a portion of it. You'll have to just take my last post and imagine the rest. I promise I was pithy and intelligent  Good night.


I get that too.  I finally started composing longer posts in Word or Notepad and then copy and paste them here.

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## Midtowner

> Except if you live in Ward One and see what's happening in these outer areas, you would be very concerned. The criminals in these apartments spill into the neighborhoods surrounding them and steal during the day, vandalize cars at night, congregate in large groups and intimidate people. It's all forcing people to flee the entire area and home prices plummet and then those entire neighborhoods are ghettos that were very nice not that long ago. During the years of zero down minority targeting mortgages these neighborhoods went to hell. Those pockets are getting bigger and that's what scares alot of people. Ask around about the student populations at the PC high schools and the large percentage of transient students from nearby apartments and crummy housing. It's all sad but it's a valid concern.


On either side of my neighborhood, you'll find section 8 apartments.  What you're claiming happens just isn't happening.

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## mkjeeves

That's way overblown. I live in Ward 1 in a very safe and stable neighborhood. Here's a crime map of OKC.

Oklahoma City crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout

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## rezman

> That's way overblown. I live in Ward 1 in a very safe and stable neighborhood. Here's a crime map of OKC.
> 
> Oklahoma City crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout



Looks like a solicitation to me. You can get that information for free, without having to subscribe to anything.  

Oklahoma City Neighborhood  Alliance   Neighborhood Alliance

Or the Oklahoma City Police web site  City of Oklahoma City | Police

It's a known fact that neighborhoods that surround section 8 apartments have a higher crime rate and lower property values. Doesn't matter what ward their in.

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## mkjeeves

Agreed. You can go to many websites and find out the same thing as what is represented in the map I linked, that NW Oklahoma City is a pretty safe place. It isn't  anywhere near the black hole of crime some people have portrayed it as. My neighborhood in Ward 1 that a poster up thread described as a combat zone is far closer to the safest neighborhoods in OKC than the least safe. Yes, as I said before, the city needs to get involved in cleaning up the derelict apartments along 10th street.

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## Leigh Baby

> A few days ago, I got the chance to take a look at some vacant mid-century homes that are currently up for sale. One of them was near NW 10th and Rockwell. The house itself was really cool-- great landscaping in both the front and back yard, nice facade, great floor plan. It looked to be in decent shape for the most part (except that the front door had obviously been kicked in at some point). Most of the other houses in the immediate neighborhood also looked like they were well-kept (or at least, not poorly kept).
> 
> The rest of the surrounding area, though? It looked like a demilitarized zone. 
> 
> Driving east on NW 10th from MacArthur to Rockwell was one of the most depressing things I've done in a long time. There's very little retail to speak of-- it seems to be nothing but 1970s apartment complexes, several of which are boarded up and rotting, some with entire units that have been completely burnt out! 
> 
> In high school, I had a friend who lived in the NW 19th and MacArthur area. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s, the area wasn't bad. It wasn't great either, but it was certainly better than it is now. 
> 
> My question is: What happened here? I mean, pretty much everything north of I-40 and west of I-35 is rundown now. Does it have something to do with the downtown revitalization? Is it because everyone moved to Moore/SW OKC? What causes whole areas to decline so rapidly? Why did they build so many apartments there in the first place?


That area used to be pretty swank back in the 70's but as we all know, low-rent apartments mean (EVENTUAL)instant slum. When I lived in OKC, (1952-1976) Rockwell and west was cow patures, then nice housing and eventually the ever-popular apartment complex. This was before we knew about instant slums and I'm sorry to hear it's gone that way.

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## Leigh Baby

> I grew up in War Acres, and have lived in the Okc area all my life. I went to Putnam City Schools, and gratuated from PC West. My dad worked for Western Electric for 38 years and moved here in 1958. He  worked in the WE plant when it was over on 39th Between Portland and Tulsa, before the plant on Reno & Council was built. 
> 
> Back in the 60's the the 10th street corridor between Meridian and Council was already on a down hill slide, and was known as a rough area. But back in the trees, on both sides of 10th street were, and still are a lot of nice homes built before the 60's back when that area was all rural.


I went to NW Classen which, outside of Nichols Hills was the best school in town at the time. I was always a NW OKC girl and wouldn't be caught dead on the 'south side' (funny how times change) I remember when Reno street was declared the worst skid row in the USA, hands down (@ 68-69, I'm sure you could look up the article in the Oklahoman archives) and the Classen Circle was still there. How could they let that landmark be destroyed? But progress sometimes screws up every thing.

PS, my cousins, Joey, David and Terry Prescott went ot Putnam City.

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## Pete

> I grew up in Bethany.  Went to school at PCWest.  Our first house we bought was in Brownsville, a nice neighborhood in Bethany.
> I wanted to make Bethany work, not leave my roots.  But the drive from I-40 to 39 on Council became too much for the wife.  Everyday she'd say we've got to get out of here.  I don't feel safe at the grocery stores.  This is Bethany we are talking about. 
> Sure enough we took the great white flight to Edmond and built a beautiful house in Red Bud Canyon.  I still drive thru Bethany and realize we made the right choice.  PC West is now one of the poorest schools in the state, I think they have close to 90% government assisted breakfasts.
> It's too simple to say the apartments killed Bethany but they sure didn't help.  I really don't recognize that town from where it was 15 years ago.


I've talked about this before but will repeat it here as well...

I graduated from PC in 1978 and grew up near 63rd & Meridian, right near Rollingwood Elementary.  In the 60's and 70's, PC Schools were the best in the state and the NW sector of OKC was the nicest area around.

I keep the database of my high school class (900 strong!) and the vast majority of my classmates who still live in Central OK are in the Edmond school district now.

In just one generation, that huge area of town went from the best to a place where even those that grew up there (like Rom) have fled for Edmond.


We spend a ton of time here talking about the urban core but the truth is that this previously very nice area has quietly gone way down hill.  Makes me incredibly sad every time I visit.

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## Leigh Baby

> I've talked about this before but will repeat it here as well...
> 
> I graduated from PC in 1978 and grew up near 63rd & Meridian, right near Rollingwood Elementary.  In the 60's and 70's, PC Schools were the best in the state and the NW sector of OKC was the nicest area around.
> 
> I keep the database of my high school class (900 strong!) and the vast majority of my classmates who still live in Central OK are in the Edmond school district now.
> 
> In just one generation, that huge area of town went from the best to a place where even those that grew up there (like Rom) have fled for Edmond.
> 
> 
> We spend a ton of time here talking about the urban core but the truth is that this previously very nice area has quietly gone way down hill.  Makes me incredibly sad every time I visit.


My dear Pete, you seem to be an old timer too. I haven't been back since the late 80's but I know a lot has changed. When I was there OKC was a cow town, a BIG cow town but a cow town nevertheless (you wanted culture, go to Tulsa) Downtown was on a downward slide by the early 60's and even worse after Shepards Mall was built. Everybody went north and west and with Curtis P Harris as county attorney and old Gaylord keeping us down what was supposed to become a major convention center failed because you couldnt get liquor by the drink. I always thought Gaylord cost OKC it's major chance to shine. He owned the paper and controlled everything. He was hard shelled baptist or some other restrictive religion and it's a wonder The City is still there. It makes me proud to know she's still going strong.

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## Leigh Baby

> The crime is pretty much concentrated into those low-income housing areas.  Being a resident of NW OKC, I don't really see a crime problem.


Well, Midtowner, you know what they say. A democrat is a republican that's never been falsely arrested and a republican is a democrat that's never been over taxed and seeing somebody build a structure that blocks your view of the boat dock will turn you into an environmentalist overnight. :Dance:

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## rezman

> I went to NW Classen which, outside of Nichols Hills was the best school in town at the time. I was always a NW OKC girl and wouldn't be caught dead on the 'south side' (funny how times change) I remember when Reno street was declared the worst skid row in the USA, hands down (@ 68-69, I'm sure you could look up the article in the Oklahoman archives) and the Classen Circle was still there. How could they let that landmark be destroyed? But progress sometimes screws up every thing.
> 
> PS, my cousins, Joey, David and Terry Prescott went ot Putnam City.


I remember when Reno was pretty bad.  Remember those flop houses that used to be across from the bus station, and the bums sleeping on the side walks?  I don't recall the rating as the worst skid row though. During the 60's and 70's we used to travel up to Chicago a couple times a year to visit my grand parents. We would get on the train here in Okc and get off at Union station Chicago. Okc had nothing on some of the things I saw in downtown Chicago.

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## Leigh Baby

> I remember when Reno was pretty bad.  Remember those flop houses that used to be across from the bus station, and the bums sleeping on the side walks?  I don't recall the rating as the worst skid row though. During the 60's and 70's we used to travel up to Chicago a couple times a year to visit my grand parents. We would get on the train here in Okc and get off at Union station Chicago. Okc had nothing on some of the things I saw in downtown Chicago.


Yes indeed I remember those flops. Two story walk-ups, 1 restroom in back. About $1 a day. How about on the corner of Broadway and Sheridan? The Talk of the Town bar?? Tradewinds across the street? Awesome times those were. Agreed Chi has to be bad but OKC was outrageous. There was an Indian bar just east of the bus station too. Never went in there but once and  was with an indian girl friend or I wouldn't have dared.
Those were wild times.

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## rezman

This  was before my time, but the man I used to work for told me stories about how   him and his friends would hang out  in some of the bars downtown and do bare fisted fighting for money in back alleys off of Broadway. I met a couple of the other gentlemen who participated in these events, but by that time they all were in their late 60's and early '70's. These were tough old boys. One of the men, who  was a BIG man with huge hands the size of dinner plates, punched a guy so hard it killed him instantly. They spoke of many wild times downtown.

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## Leigh Baby

> This  was before my time, but the man I used to work for told me stories about how   him and his friends would hang out  in some of the bars downtown and do bare fisted fighting for money in back alleys off of Broadway. I met a couple of the other gentlemen who participated in these events, but by that time they all were in their late 60's and early '70's. These were tough old boys. One of the men, who  was a BIG man with huge hands the size of dinner plates, punched a guy so hard it killed him instantly. They spoke of many wild times downtown.



I never saw back alley fights but I'm sure they existed. Almost any other 'sport' you want to name certainly did. And I do know where some bodies  are buried, figuratively speaking. :Wink:

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## rezman

> I went to NW Classen which, outside of Nichols Hills was the best school in town at the time. I was always a NW OKC girl and wouldn't be caught dead on the 'south side' (funny how times change) I remember when Reno street was declared the worst skid row in the USA, hands down (@ 68-69, I'm sure you could look up the article in the Oklahoman archives) and the Classen Circle was still there. How could they let that landmark be destroyed? But progress sometimes screws up every thing.
> 
> PS, my cousins, Joey, David and Terry Prescott went ot Putnam City.



Oh... I forgot to mention, .. Leigh baby, you asked about the Classen Circle. That was removed when traffic increased to the point that there were too many accidents in that location. So it was replaced with a standard design.

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## Just the facts

> Oh... I forgot to mention, .. Leigh baby, you asked about the Classen Circle. That was removed when traffic increased to the point that there were too many accidents in that location. *So it was replaced with a standard design*.


Which ironically is now the most dangerous intersection in the state.  Go figure.

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## Buffalo Bill

> Which ironically is now the most dangerous intersection in the state.  Go figure.


Not true; doesn't even make the top 10 in OKC:

OKC releases list of top 10 dangerous intersections | KFOR.com ? Oklahoma City News & Weather from KFOR Television, Oklahoma's News Channel 4

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## Just the facts

From the second line in your link.




> The intersection of Belle Isle and Northwest Expressway is the dubious leader with the most accidents over the last several years.


and the list...




> OKC’s top 10 most dangerous intersections:
> *1. N.W. Expressway and Belle Isle Blvd.* 
> 2. N.W. Expressway and Rockwell
> 3. N.W. Expressway and Portland
> 4. N.W. Expressway and N.W. 63rd St.
> 5. N.W. Expressway and Lake Hefner Parkway (east side)
> 6. N.W. Expressway and Pennsylvania Ave.
> 7. N.W. 39th Expressway and Meridian
> 8. N. MacArthur and Reno Ave.
> ...

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## zookeeper

> From the second line in your link.
> 
> 
> 
> and the list...*1. N.W. Expressway and Belle Isle Blvd*.


The intersection above is not the old Classen Circle. That's where Northwest Expressway ends at Classen. The #1 worst intersection is at the Expressway and Bell Isle where you're coming off the long ramp at the interstate and merging with Northwest Expressway west bound combined with people trying to move over to make the entrance at Bell Isle Station and Penn Square Mall. It's the most harrowing few seconds. Terrible design. But it's not the old Classen Circle. That intersection is perfectly normal.

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## Just the facts

I see the (my) confusion now.

Classen Circle is now the intersection of Classen Blvd, NW Expwy, and Bell Isle Blvd (which is really just a 3 block stretch of Classen between NWExp and Classen Curve) BUT there is a second NWExpwy/Bell Isle intersection closer to Penn Sq. (At least on the map I was looking at).

Here it is before the cirlce was removed.

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## zookeeper

> Classen Cicle is now the intersection of Classen Blvd, NW Expwy, and Bell Isle Blvd (which is really just a 3 block stretch of Classen between NWExp and Classen Curve).
> 
> Here it is before the cirlce was removed.


Maybe it's the street name issue. Somebody help me, the street right at that dangerous merge westbound at Penn Square and Bell Isle Station. Is that Bell Isle Station Blvd? I live right near here and see it all the time, TV stations did stand-ups at the bad intersection when this list came out, it showed just how dangerous it is. It is not the old Classen Circle intersection. 



Ok, it's called Belle Isle RD maybe? here's the sign.



update: I just saw your edited post. I'm glad you figured it out, I was having a hard time explaining.

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## Just the facts

No worries Zookeeper.  Thanks for setting me straight.

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## Buffalo Bill

> Maybe it's the street name issue. Somebody help me, the street right at that dangerous merge westbound at Penn Square and Bell Isle Station. Is that Bell Isle Station Blvd? I live right near here and see it all the time, TV stations did stand-ups at the bad intersection when this list came out, it showed just how dangerous it is. It is not the old Classen Circle intersection. 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, it's called Belle Isle RD maybe? here's the sign.
> 
> 
> 
> update: I just saw your edited post. I'm glad you figured it out, I was having a hard time explaining.


It's a Google maps error.  Belle Isle Blvd extends from Classen Blvd (at the light near the Chili's) to NW Expwy(bad intersection).  The most dangerous condition at the NW Expwy/ Belle Isle junction is from Westbound cars on NW expressway illegally turning right across the Westbound I-44 ramp traffic.

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## zookeeper

> It's a Google maps error.  Belle Isle Blvd extends from Classen Blvd (at the light near the Chili's) to NW Expwy(bad intersection).  The most dangerous condition at the NW Expwy/ Belle Isle junction is from Westbound cars on NW expressway illegally turning right across the Westbound I-44 ramp traffic.


I think it's fair to say there at least five major problems at that intersection. When one of the TV stations was there they pointed them all out. Not the least is the size of the intersection and problems east and west. Then, as you mentioned, the westbound people trying to move across to enter Bell Isle Station and Penn Square. It's just a bad spot.

Derailed thread is back on track. Northwest Oklahoma City has it's share of problems, but they are further out which is the opposite of what it used to be. Now, the Northwest Expressway area between the Valliance Bank Tower and Wedgewood is very busy with shopping and dining destinations in a few square block area that's a key corridor with May Avenue. Some of those other problems west make me terribly sad.

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## rezman

I remember when the Woodlake, Lyrewood area, and all those apartments were built. Does anyone remember the multiple fires at Woodlake when it was being built? ...Big fires.... anyway, Northwest Okc was the place to be at one time. I had an aunt and uncle who lived out at Silver Lake, up on North MacArthur, before Ski Island was built up. I remember when they built the dam there. There wasn't much out there. MacArthur was a two lane intersection with a stop sign at NW highway. Rockwell & NW Highway  was Farm land..

It's interesting to have wisnessed the rise and fall of that area.

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## OkieDave

> I subscribe to Rudy Guiliani's broken window theory. When a neighborhood starts to go downhill, it needs to be addressed early or it starts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.


  Everyone takes credit for why crime went down.  Freakonomics suggest half was do to Roe v. Wade.  Provocative theory growing that leaded gasoline may be responsible.

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## bluedogok

> Lucent/Celestica, which owned the Western Electric plant when it closed, began winding down operations, preparing to shut it down in 2000; the Right to Work ballot was passed by voters in 2001.


Lucent was once the most widely held stock in the world which diluted its value to the large shareholders, especially the ones running the company. In the age of spinoffs, Avaya was born with the most profitable products that Lucent produced at the time, Lucent was left to die on the vine with old product and little hope. Among those not offered Avaya stock in the spin-off was the majority of Lucent/AT&T/Western Electric retirees whose retirement accounts were heavily invested in Lucent stock which became virtually worthless and then came the telecom bust. It still amazes me that whole episode never did generate more press than it did.


My parents still live in the house that my sister and I grew up in (lived there since 1965) and they have been considering moving because of what has happened in their neighborhood. There are only a few of the "old families" still there and many who moved in don't seem to take care of their properties as well as most people have for 48 years. My sister lives in Bethany and teaches in a PC school, the whole area has changed greatly since we went to school at West. All of those apartments built in the early 70's moved down market after the newer ones were built in the late 70's to early 80's and have moved even more down market in the years since to the point that the majority are Section 8 or some other kind of assistance. As others have stated, that changed the entire demographic of the area.

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## BoulderSooner

> Lucent was once the most widely held stock in the world which diluted its value to the large shareholders, especially the ones running the company. In the age of spinoffs, Avaya was born with the most profitable products that Lucent produced at the time, Lucent was left to die on the vine with old product and little hope. Among those not offered Avaya stock in the spin-off was the majority of Lucent/AT&T/Western Electric retirees whose retirement accounts were heavily invested in Lucent stock which became virtually worthless and then came the telecom bust. It still amazes me that whole episode never did generate more press than it did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My parents still live in the house that my sister and I grew up in (lived there since 1965) and they have been considering moving because of what has happened in their neighborhood. There are only a few of the "old families" still there and many who moved in don't seem to take care of their properties as well as most people have for 48 years. My sister lives in Bethany and teaches in a PC school, the whole area has changed greatly since we went to school at West. All of those apartments built in the early 70's moved down market after the newer ones were built in the late 70's to early 80's and have moved even more down market in the years since to the point that the majority are Section 8 or some other kind of assistance. As others have stated, that changed the entire demographic of the area.


i don't really think avaya got the "most profitbale porducts"  ...   the pr 2000 lucent sold off its consoblem was that lucent spun off or sold off all of its best divisions .. to maximize value agere systems (took the micro electronics arm) was spun off in 2002   and before that inumer products unit  those things combine with the earning scandal (the misreported earnings for several years) crushed their stock and put them in a weak position ..

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## Rom

Hate to bump an old thread but was in Bethany today visiting the  Deaconess wound care center.  Drove around the old neighborhood and looked at the old house on 20th St.  I was absolutely shocked at the area.  Yards are overgrown, broken down cars in people's yards.  What the hell happened to a once great town of Bethany?!?
I did not recognize that town today.

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## bchris02

> Hate to bump an old thread but was in Bethany today visiting the  Deaconess wound care center.  Drove around the old neighborhood and looked at the old house on 20th St.  I was absolutely shocked at the area.  Yards are overgrown, broken down cars in people's yards.  What the hell happened to a once great town of Bethany?!?
> I did not recognize that town today.


I wonder the same thing.  While in the past 15 years downtown has seen a renaissance, the once desirable parts of town like Bethany, Warr Acres, the Village, etc have not been treated as kindly by the years.  When I lived in OKC as a child in the 90s, I remember those being the desirable areas for families, much like Deer Creek and west Edmond is today.

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## betts

Sprawl happened.  When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old.  The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive.  We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.

Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well.  Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens.  Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new.  I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.

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## Teo9969

> Sprawl happened.  When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old.  The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive.  We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.
> 
> Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well.  Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens.  Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new.  *I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.*


If I had to guess, Bethany is 2 decades away from even the start of that Renaissance. The Village, with it's proximity to Nichols Hills and Quail Springs gives it a better chance, but it will be after the Urban Core starts to really get things under way.

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## KenRagsdale

I lived in Crown Heights in the late 70's and in Edgemere Park since the early 80's.  Crown Heights, along with Edgemere Park, were both showing their ages during that period.  Insofar as Edgemere Park is concerned, the revitalization seemed to crystalize when the Interstate highway plans were being drawn.  Originally, ODOT had no plans for a burm or wall separating Edgemere Park from the Interstate.  Neighbors learned of it, pooled both time and treasure to insist upon it, and eventually both were included in the plans.  From that point forward, Edgemere Park Preservation, Inc., with great leadership and broad support, has grown stronger and more confident in its vision.  The neighborhood has never been in better shape.

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## Dubya61

> If I had to guess, Bethany is 2 decades away from even the start of that Renaissance. The Village, with it's proximity to Nichols Hills and Quail Springs gives it a better chance, but it will be after the Urban Core starts to really get things under way.


Is it possible to jump start that any?  What is the Founders Tower District doing?  Something slow and determined, but that might be a better and quicker path than hoping the cure finds its way to you.  I just don't know if its something that is affordable on even a small scale.

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## warreng88

My wife lived in the Putnam City school district and attended PCO until she went off to college in 2002. When she was in high school and even as recent as up to 2009 (that is when her sister graduated from the same school) she said it was great and there were never really problems. Now, it seems like the whole area has gone downhill. It seems like neighborhoods are cyclical in the time they get nice and then go downhill a little (or a lot). We bought our house in the Crestwood addition in late 2007 and even since then we have seen more young couples and other people buying houses in the area and fixing them up. 

I graduated from OCU (a mile away from my current house) in 2002 and at that time, you were told not to go into my current neighborhood for fear of violence. We think it is because people are moving to Edmond and Deer Creek mostly for the schools. I think in about five to ten years, we will see the Edmond schools going downhill like PC and Bethany did because people don't care about their homes as much, just want to be in a good school district and don't care as much about working with their kids on homework, just getting the teachers to do it. JMHO.

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## adaniel

I hate to sound like an old fogey, but people nowadays just are not committed to their neighborhoods and homes like they used to. And this is something that transcends OKC. I remember my own dad used to just slave away on our home, but there was a definite pride of ownership you don't see post-housing bust. 

The reason you see more commitment in inner city neighborhoods is to fight off crime and creeping blight that may just be a block away. It kinda lights a fire under everyone's booty. In the burbs, however, there really is no such incentive because everything is so shiny and new at first. Also, I think a lot of people, especially with kiddos, think that they must buy a home or little Johnny will be a delinquent, and they simply have no clue about the responsibilities of home ownership. They let their homes decline, and when they decide to "upgrade" to the next ring of development that has been thrown up, they have to rent them out simply because they can't get what they paid for. Once you have a large contingent of renters (and I say this as one myself), there is simply no more pride in the home. And everything starts on its slow, steady descent from there. 

Not so much Edmond, but you can go into a lot of newish neighborhoods not even 10 years old all over the metro built by lower end/starter home type builders (Home Creations, Rausch Coleman, you could probably throw in Ideal Homes) and they are already starting to look bad. We have a family friend who got out of a neighborhood on the Moore/SEOKC border that was a Home Creations neighborhood because it was starting to decline so much. 

Edmond has some staying power for the mere fact it is at a higher price point, but it too may start succumbing to the same issues.

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## bradh

When people move into these starter home neighborhoods in Deer Creek or Edmond, that have a low price point, they don't realize that yes, they're moving to a nice school, but give it less than 10 years and that neighborhood is gonna be crap.

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## Patrick

> When people move into these starter home neighborhoods in Deer Creek or Edmond, that have a low price point, they don't realize that yes, they're moving to a nice school, but give it less than 10 years and that neighborhood is gonna be crap.


Propery values of starter homes in Deer Creek and Edmond are well over $160k per house.  I don't see why that would go down hill.

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## warreng88

> Propery values of starter homes in Deer Creek and Edmond are well over $160k per house.  I don't see why that would go down hill.


Maybe not the $250,000 homes or above, but I could see it happening to the homes at $200,000 or less and it is because the whole neighborhood is the same and they are all at the same price. In about 5-7 years once several people at once are trying to sell their homes, one person is going to sell for $5,000-$10,000 less than the next person, that will bring the comps (or comparables) in neighborhood down and people will be forced to either sell their homes for 10% less to get it off the market. Or, they will end up with is sitting on the market for 6-9 months (like one of my friends) because the homes around them are selling for less and they are not willing to drop the price as much as other people.

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## bradh

Exactly.  There is Wynnchase and Deer Creek Village, and then you have Deer Creek Park nestled between them.  In Deer Creek Village you have homes over $250k.  In Wynchase similar price point (maybe a bit less).  Deer Creek Park the homes start for $150k.  You know right off the bat where that neighborhood is probably headed.

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## progressiveboy

> Exactly.  There is Wynnchase and Deer Creek Village, and then you have Deer Creek Park nestled between them.  In Deer Creek Village you have homes over $250k.  In Wynchase similar price point (maybe a bit less).  Deer Creek Park the homes start for $150k.  You know right off the bat where that neighborhood is probably headed.


 Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.

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## warreng88

This was the way the housing crisis hit rock bottom on the west coast. Homes were selling for $300/square foot or more and they were completely leveraged. Once banks started foreclosing on homes in the area and selling them for $200,000 less than the house next door, those homes became comparables for any other house trying to sell. Whole neighborhoods were for sale or foreclosed on. Banks started calling the notes due because people owed more than they were worth and people were just handing in their keys telling them to start foreclosure. Then the dominos continued to fall.

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## warreng88

> Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.


I don't think you will have too much of a problem with areas where the houses are at least a little different, but in northern Edmond, there are whole neighborhoods where the builders used the same brick/stone, same basic floorplan, same windows and all that is different is the trim paint and roof color. If there are two houses on the same street for sale with very little different between them, the buyer will pick the lower price home.

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## Jim Kyle

> We bought our house in the Crestwood addition in late 2007 and even since then we have seen more young couples and other people buying houses in the area and fixing them up.


We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.

It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.

Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.

The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.

I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...

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## warreng88

> We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.
> 
> It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.
> 
> Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.
> 
> The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.
> 
> I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...


Thanks for sharing your story with us Jim.

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## adaniel

There still is a really good stock of Midcentury homes in NW OKC, which have a lot of fans. So I think it is just a matter of people wanting to get organized and stand up for their communities instead of bailing out the second they can. I am actually quite excited to see what the Windsor District and Musgrave Pennington association will do in a few years. I think the can serve as a nice blueprint for what other aging suburban areas can do to reverse their fortunes. 

On a related note, when I eventually buy a home in the next year or so, I will definitely be buying in an area with an HOA or some sort of neighborhood association. Everyone bags on them, but seeing how quick nice neighborhoods can turn to slum here, they are pretty much the best defense. 




> Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.


Hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of places (Farmers Branch, Garland, and even my hometown of Plano) that are experiencing the same issues. Also, this is happening when OKC is by most measures thriving. It is really independent of economic conditions. If neighborhoods are not built in a sustainable manner, it will eventually fall no matter what.

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## Mr. Cotter

> We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.
> 
> It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.
> 
> Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.
> 
> The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.
> 
> I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...


You should come back! I bought in Cleveland this year, and it's a really solid neighborhood.  Crestwood is a few years behind, but it will get there soon enough.

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## foodiefan

> I am actually quite excited to see what the Windsor District and Musgrave Pennington association will do in a few years. I think the can serve as a nice blueprint for what other aging suburban areas can do to reverse their fortunes.


I'm in the Windsor District, specifically Windsor Hills.  While there are some "problem" houses, the majority of the homes are well-maintained, and we have an active neighborhood association.  I'm encouraged by some of the younger people/families moving in.  It's really a great area for those of us who still want a yard. . .15 minutes or so to most places, great diversity.  Would love to see Windsor Hills Shopping Center "come back" with some neat places. . .there are some "anchors". . .Gophurm, B&B movie theater, Crest.  I think it will happen. . .just hope I live long enough to see it!!

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## Plutonic Panda

> *Sprawl happened.*  When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old.  The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive.  We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.
> 
> Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well.  Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens.  Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new.  I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.


Love this. . . it's always marvelous to blame sprawl for problems. Never mind the people who choose not to mow and keep their yards up. Never mind a big part of the  downtown renaissance being funded from the suburbs, lets blame it all on sprawl lol. . . I understand the basis of what you're saying, however, I think what happened to Bethany and The Village could've been prevented and can turn around. It is up to the people to want to make their town better just as people in Oklahoma City decided to pass MAPS and make OKC a better city.

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## bradh

You do have to put responsibility on the people as well.  Why is it so hard to take care of your stuff?

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## betts

But sprawl is a significant part of the problem.  When the fringes of a city are considered the most desirable, then prices drop in places people aren't as interested in living.  And, as prices drop, people acquire properties to use as rentals.  Landlords are rarely motivated to take optimal care of their properties as their primary interest is monetary.  Tenants don't have pride of ownership.  Homes get older and fall into more disrepair as anything older requires more upkeep.  It's only when older areas become more interesting to live near, the architecture is interesting or the location is optimal that areas become resurgent.

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## bradh

That's true.  I'm in an neighborhood that is just about in transition.  Lot's of older (I say older, I mean my parents' age, 55+) folks who take great pride in everything, and have their houses paid off.  We're fine here for now, but when they start bailing that's probably when stuff hits the fan.  I try to stay involved, as catty as being on an HOA board can be as a 33 year old, but I feel it's only one way to slow the trend.

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## JayhawkTransplant

In my neighborhood, the vast majority of the code enforcement issues come from houses being occupied by tenants with a landlord living far away. Often times, having your yard guy now every other week will suffice in late August, but definitely not this year...

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## Rom

I think a lot can be put on the greed of the towns and developers.  When you approve apartments for the tax revenue flees eventually come with the dog.
Old apartments are OL over NW OKC and Bethany and right now you see new apartments being built in Edmond and Deer Creek.

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## bradh

> I think a lot can be put on the greed of the towns and developers.  When you approve apartments for the tax revenue flees eventually come with the dog.
> Old apartments are OL over NW OKC and Bethany and right now you see new apartments being built in Edmond and Deer Creek.


Check Rockwell & Memorial area...3 new complexes in one square mile

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## Plutonic Panda

Again, I think these homes and apartment complexes can be nice if they are kept up. If the people don't want to take pride in their community, then Edmond will end up just like Bethany is today.

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## bluedogok

One problem is the concentration of apartments in areas, when they start going downhill the slide is rapid. If they were more spread out they could probably sustain better values.

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## rezman

Me and the wife got out on the motor scooter for a little while on Sunday, and had the "opportunity"  to drive NW 10th street from lake O east to Portland.   It's been a while since I've been through that way, but BOY! ... what a toilet that section of town has become.  I felt like I needed a shower after I got out of there.

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## oki

> It has nothing to do with downtown and everything to do with demographics.


For sure.

Section 8 and cheap apartments/housing.
Poverty and all that can come with it.
Long-distance landlords.
Aging houses and suburban white flight.

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## oki

> You do have to put responsibility on the people as well.  Why is it so hard to take care of your stuff?


This is another part of the problem.

Recession, foreclosures, economic hard times... less money or incentive to maintain properties.

Homeownership is also a big deal. Homeowners want a nice neigbhorhood, not the slums. They want their kids in nice schools. People who are responsible enough to work, have a job, be able to afford a house, have kids, etc. want safe neighborhoods without the upkeep of extremely old cheaper houses. Cheap $50,000ish houses or cheap rental apartments/houses tend to mean rental or section 8 neighbors and bad schools. 

I have little tolerance for being a homeowner and living near section 8, cheap apartments, etc. There are some apartments somewhat near me (there weren't when I bought the place!), but they are mostly upscale apartments near shops. I still don't like them. Most homeowners don't. Apartments mean more traffic, section 8, lower rents, noise, and are rarely good for property value.

Schools are why you find a lot of people moving to Edmond-- it's been this way for 20 years. Classen SAS is a great school, but it's in the hood, and it's a long commute. 

Section 8, poverty, and similar nearby tend to make homeowners with pride want to move elsewhere. And most section 8 people don't have the money or motivation to fix up apartments/houses-- especially since they don't own the houses anyway. And no one who can afford to buy a house wants to live in the ghetto. If you live in the slums, you're concerned about your very safety-- not about how tall your lawn is or if your garden looks good.

Property value is a big motivation for people to maintain their properties. It's far more unlikely for someone with a $250,000 or $500,000 house to let their house fall into disrepair and look crappy. They have too much money on the line. If a person's house is only $25,000 or $50,000, there's a lot less incentive to maintain, upgrade, and repair the place since it's not worth much. 

That's why you'll never see slums in the "good" parts of Edmond, OKC, Yukon, etc. The houses are worth $200,000 --- if a neighbor lets their house start looking run down, neighbors will complain quickly and loudly. You don't see that sort of pride among many neighbors in $50,000 houses. It just doesn't happen overall. People in poor areas have much more to worry about than lawns.

New houses nearby also helps appearance and property values. That alone has nearly doubled some Edmond property values over the last 20 years when parts of Edmond were farmland.

Other areas have flip flopped between being ghetto. In the, what, 70's, the Paseo was artsy and trendy. The 80s the Paseo was horrible. In the 90s, the Paseo was less bad. Now the Paseo is (yet again) up-and-coming and trying to be trendy and improve.

There are other areas that are "fine" but have ghettos nearby. I would say this applies to Paseo, Crown Heights, etc. and is a major reason why I would never live there. You either get old run down houses or fully renovated overpriced old houses. Old historic homes = maintenance nightmare. The schools out there are not good. Noise. Traffic. Cheap rental apartments nearby. Ghetto slums nearby. Plus, historic homes and the old neighborhoods just don't often have what today's homebuyers want: master bedroom downstairs with large walk-in closet and large master bathroom, at least a few other bathrooms in the house, nice newer kitchen, 2-3 car attached garage, etc. The houses I saw in Edgemere and Crown Heights had 1-2 bathrooms per house with no master bathroom, plus small master bedrooms, detached 1 car garage if any garage at all, old windows, not enough closet space, and so forth. I have no intention of buying and maintaining a very old home and have to share 1.5 old bathrooms with multiple kids, have no good nearby schools, have to park in a detached garage (what's the point), and ghettos nearby. Yuck.

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## oki

> I'll say that for someone who prefers urban living, IMO the death of suburbs is/was highly exaggerated. Lots of people simply don't care for dense urban environments. More importantly, cities' troubled urban school districts will always give families pause. Towns that offer good schools, solid (but not always cheap) real estate, a diverse tax base, some culture and arts, and at least some measure of white collar employment with simple access to other job centers will always be in demand. In this area, I can really only think of Norman, and to a lesser extent Edmond, that meet these descriptions. There are plenty of homes in both towns built in the 1960-1985 time period that look great.


I agree.

People forget that the suburbs and what it offers are what draw people to smaller cities like OKC.

Larger, newer houses with lower costs of living in the suburbs.... 

Good/decent safe schools...

Parks and family friendly safe areas...

Shops, malls, restaurants, school, work, etc. all within 5 minutes of your house.

The suburbs are quiet, family friendly, convenient, usually newer homes with adequate safe schools and large homes.

I certainly didn't move south to Oklahoma to deal with an urban h*ll of traffic, tiny overpriced apartments/condos, parking nightmares, old small houses, noise, and having to deal with public transportation or walking everywhere I go daily. 

Seriously, if I wanted Central Park and to live downtown in some tiny overpriced urban loft apartment and walk to get groceries at Whole Foods everyday, then ride my bike to some overly hip trendy restaurant, I would be living in NYC now, not OKC.

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## ljbab728

Obviously nobody will change your mind about what you want.  It is also obvious that many people are now trending away from your ideal and embracing an urban lifestyle. Your suggestion that OKC's suburbs are what is attracting people here is only true for some people and the continuing development of living options in and near downtown are extremely attractive for large numbers.   Of course the suburbs are not going away but neither is the trend towards urban living.

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## andrew3077

Hopefully, the choice isn't between great suburbs OR a vibrant, urban downtown, but I'm pretty sure the goal is to have both great suburbs AND a vibrant urban downtown.

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## CuatrodeMayo

Classen SAS is not "in the hood".  Gatewood UCD is a wonderful neighborhood with a great amenity in the Plaza District.  I'm raising my family here.

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## ljbab728

> Schools are why you find a lot of people moving to Edmond-- it's been this way for 20 years. Classen SAS is a great school, but it's in the hood, and it's a long commute.


It's very apparent that in spite of the negative publicity of the OKCPS, there is little impact on enrollment.  People are definitely moving into the district in large numbers.

School district boasts largest enrollment since late '70s | News OK




> More students are attending Oklahoma City Public Schools than at any time in the past 35 years, district officials reported this week.
> 
> Enrollment rose by 2.4 percent or 1,115 students during the first quarter of the 2013-14 school year, continuing a decadelong trend of growth. An estimated 45,773 students are in the district compared to 44,658 after one quarter last year, officials said.

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## soonerguru

> I agree.
> 
> People forget that the suburbs and what it offers are what draw people to smaller cities like OKC.
> 
> Larger, newer houses with lower costs of living in the suburbs.... 
> 
> Good/decent safe schools...
> 
> Parks and family friendly safe areas...
> ...


Whatever. No one is forcing you to live in OKC. Perhaps you should join EdmondTalk.com and extoll the many pleasantries of your bucolic lifestyle.

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## bchris02

> Whatever. No one is forcing you to live in OKC. Perhaps you should join EdmondTalk.com and extoll the many pleasantries of your bucolic lifestyle.


I agree with some of what he is saying.  People wanting to move somewhere specifically to live the "urban lifestyle" probably aren't going to choose OKC. However, the urban revitalization and gentrification we are experiencing is making it so that people have that option and younger people who want a vibrant community will no longer turn down a job offer just because its in OKC, something that would have happened a decade ago. A city that offers adequate urban amenities along with a low cost of living, good job market, and low crime is a winner.

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## Jim Kyle

> Classen SAS is not "in the hood".  Gatewood UCD is a wonderful neighborhood with a great amenity in the Plaza District.  I'm raising my family here.


Good point, but it's still all too close. Specifically, the area between Main and NW 16, from Western at least out to Indiana, still hasn't been gentrified much if one pays attention to the crime reports from that region.

Back in the late '50s I lived at 1421 NW 8; it was no Nichols Hills but my neighbors were all upstanding, respectable folk, and I never feared walking to the little mon-and-pop grocery in the next block. Today it seems that "the hood" has taken over there, and I hesitate to even drive through.

The rebirth of the Plaza district, and the widening of NW 10 between Western and Penn gives hope that this part of downtown will be reclaimed but it hasn't happened yet. It HAS happened to the blocks surrounding CSAS, though, and that's good.

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## Teo9969

I hate to say this, but if you hesitate to drive through any part of OKC, you're part of the problem...

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## zookeeper

> *I hate to say this, but if you hesitate to drive through any part of OKC, you're part of the problem...*


I was going to let this go, but what the %^&$$ are you talking about? Jim was saying that he didn't feel completely safe driving through a neighborhood that he once lived in. The fact the "hood" has taken over the area is not the problem? The problem is Jim not feeling safe driving through there? In fact, you think because of that, *he's part of the problem?* Is this some kind of weird "diversity training" claptrap? Sometimes I think the whole fricking world has gone insane.

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## bluedogok

I can understand what he is saying but for the most part I wouldn't have a problem driving through there or maybe even buying there if I were to move back. My grandparents lived close to that area in the 70's, behind about where Mutt's is. Still driving through that area is not like it was driving down State Street in South Chicago in the 90's, that is really the only time that I have "felt" a bad vibe driving through an area.

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## zookeeper

> I can understand what he is saying but for the most part I wouldn't have a problem driving through there or maybe even buying there if I were to move back. My grandparents lived close to that area in the 70's, behind about where Mutt's is. Still driving through that area is not like it was driving down State Street in South Chicago in the 90's, that is really the only time that I have "felt" a bad vibe driving through an area.


But what did he mean when he said if Jim didn't feel safe - he's "part of the problem?" It's like we're all supposed to celebrate rough neighborhoods? Adds to the "diversity?"

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## bluedogok

To some people, I can see where they think that area is "rough", especially if they have memories from when they lived there as a different type of neighborhood. Heck even my parents neighborhood is way different than when I was growing up and most would consider it "rougher" than it was 40 years ago. I don't get the "part of the problem" statement either as I don't think Jim is the likely demographic for a renaissance of the area. In fact I am probably on the high end of the age group that would bring that neighborhood back but I guess it is because of my field that I see possibilities in those old areas. Too many of my non-architecture/construction friends just see an "old neighborhood" and wouldn't think twice about it, even those significantly younger than I am. Many of those just think anything other than a brand new neighborhood as "rough".

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## Teo9969

> I was going to let this go, but what the %^&$$ are you talking about? Jim was saying that he didn't feel completely safe driving through a neighborhood that he once lived in. *The fact the "hood" has taken over the area is not the problem?*


Not entirely sure how you came to the conclusion that those are my feelings.




> The problem is Jim not feeling safe driving through there?


"Part of" is an important modifier that ought not be left out.




> In fact, you think because of that, *he's part of the problem?* Is this some kind of weird "diversity training" claptrap? Sometimes I think the whole fricking world has gone insane.





> But what did he mean when he said if Jim didn't feel safe - he's "part of the problem?" It's like we're all supposed to celebrate rough neighborhoods? Adds to the "diversity?"


Where did you get this idea that I'm pro rough neighborhoods?

Look...I didn't say "Oh, if you won't take a leisurely stroll at Midnight in this 'hood' then you're part of the problem". Jim intimated that he would hesitate to simply drive through this area, ostensibly at any time. So he would defer his traffic via an indirect route were he traveling in proximity, again, at any time based on Jim's non-specification.

Nowhere in OKC is so bad that you can't DRIVE through it between 8AM and 6PM...unless you've done something to piss someone off in the area. This is not the bad areas of a big city. If your sense of security is so timid as to force a detour in your route around an area that simply is not that bad, then you're enabling the sequestering of an area to a perpetual roughness: Activity in an area discourages rough behavior. If you're intentionally depriving an area of activity that would otherwise occur, then you're part of the segregating of said area away from the rest of the community.

Now, had Jim qualified his reasoning for not feeling secure, then the reason may have been acceptable to say "fair enough". But without qualification, no area in this city is an established haven of non-discretionary, impartial personal attacks simply for driving through. There are legitimate places in the world where that is the case, and nowhere in OKC is as such, or it would be a community wide understanding, and the city would issue warning about said area.

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## mkjeeves

> I was going to let this go, but what the %^&$$ are you talking about? Jim was saying that he didn't feel completely safe driving through a neighborhood that he once lived in. The fact the "hood" has taken over the area is not the problem? The problem is Jim not feeling safe driving through there? In fact, you think because of that, he's part of the problem?Is this some kind of weird "diversity training" claptrap? *Sometimes I think the whole fricking world has gone insane.*


Naw. Just some of the urbanistas. Besides this stupidity, upthread someone spoke many good things about OKC, they just happened to not be all be about downtown, but about other parts of OKC that are appealing and why. In so many words he was told to get out. 

Cite: http://www.okctalk.com/ask-anything-...tml#post695079

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## Jim Kyle

> Now, had Jim qualified his reasoning for not feeling secure, then the reason may have been acceptable to say "fair enough". But without qualification, no area in this city is an established haven of non-discretionary, impartial personal attacks simply for driving through. There are legitimate places in the world where that is the case, and nowhere in OKC is as such, or it would be a community wide understanding, and the city would issue warning about said area.


I had planned to simply ignore the comment, but it seems to have taken on a life of its own so here's a bit more detail: The crime rate in that area, while it seems to be dropping slowly, is still well above the city-wide average. The biggest problem appears to be drug houses, though, with fewer drive-by shootings than in the northeast or southwest quadrants (in both of which I've also lived; my sons still own the house on SW 60 to which I moved from NW 8, and mine was the last white family to leave the home on NE 44 that I occupied from 1962 ro 1967).

Back in the late 50s, when strict segregation was still the primary way of life in OKC, I had no probolem at all driving to a place near the old Moon Junior High on NE 2 known simply as "Tony's," which was an all-night joint run by the Potts twins with good barbecue, great camp coffee, and a rotating crowd of regulars that ranged from hookers to ad agency folk to squad cops. Everyone considered it as neutral ground and the conventional rules simply didn't apply. It was where I first heard Mason Williams play, and learned to appreciate Miles Davis. And the whole area was considered "off limits" by much of white OKC, although it was hardly a ghetto...

Actually, my remark that touched off this discussion was perhaps a bit more hyperbole, intended to drive home the extent to which that area declined between 1958 and today, than precise fact. I'd have no more problem driving through it during daylight hours than I would MLK, NE 36, or SW 29 -- which is to say, none at all. The wee hours of the morning, however, would make all those locations into places to be a bit more on my guard than, say, on the Kilpatrick Turnpike...

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## Teo9969

> I had planned to simply ignore the comment, but it seems to have taken on a life of its own so here's a bit more detail: The crime rate in that area, while it seems to be dropping slowly, is still well above the city-wide average. The biggest problem appears to be drug houses, though, with fewer drive-by shootings than in the northeast or southwest quadrants (in both of which I've also lived; my sons still own the house on SW 60 to which I moved from NW 8, and mine was the last white family to leave the home on NE 44 that I occupied from 1962 ro 1967).
> 
> Back in the late 50s, when strict segregation was still the primary way of life in OKC, I had no probolem at all driving to a place near the old Moon Junior High on NE 2 known simply as "Tony's," which was an all-night joint run by the Potts twins with good barbecue, great camp coffee, and a rotating crowd of regulars that ranged from hookers to ad agency folk to squad cops. Everyone considered it as neutral ground and the conventional rules simply didn't apply. It was where I first heard Mason Williams play, and learned to appreciate Miles Davis. And the whole area was considered "off limits" by much of white OKC, although it was hardly a ghetto...
> 
> Actually, my remark that touched off this discussion was perhaps a bit more hyperbole, intended to drive home the extent to which that area declined between 1958 and today, than precise fact. I'd have no more problem driving through it during daylight hours than I would MLK, NE 36, or SW 29 -- which is to say, none at all. The wee hours of the morning, however, would make all those locations into places to be a bit more on my guard than, say, on the Kilpatrick Turnpike...


This is actually inline with what I actually suspected your thoughts on the matter to be. Having read many of your posts, I have a great respect for you Jim, and certainly my comments were not intended to paint you as a person who opposes "diversity". 

The only reason I said what I said was because there are people who make such statements and mean them quite literally and seriously. And anytime the area in question comes up or anytime they're referencing the rough parts of OKC, they paint it as if it's a gang land that you're sure to lose your life if you enter.

In fairness to you, I should have addressed it dialectically rather than the sophomoric approach I took.

I blame it on being 4 Coop Native Ambers and an OU loss to Texas in to the day  :Wink:

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## RadicalModerate

> I hate to say this, but if you hesitate to drive through any part of OKC, you're part of the problem...


Many people would claim that if you DRIVE through ANY part of OKC you're, part of the problem.
They would prefer that you be on a bicycle or walking.

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## bradh

There is nowhere in OKC that anyone shouldn't feel safe driving through.  I remember my dad driving me through the Bloody Nickel (Fifth Ward) in Houston when I was a youngster and I only needed to see the area once.  Rough.

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## Teo9969

> Many people would claim that if you DRIVE through ANY part of OKC you're, part of the problem.
> They would prefer that you be on a bicycle or walking.


Ha!

Indeed.

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## Achilleslastand

> There is nowhere in OKC that anyone shouldn't feel safe driving through.  I remember my dad driving me through the Bloody Nickel (Fifth Ward) in Houston when I was a youngster and I only needed to see the area once.  Rough.


It could not be any worse then North Las Vegas or North Tulsa......

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## RadicalModerate

There is NOWHERE in OKC that compares--in sheer drive-thru uneasiness--to Prospect Avenue, South of I-70, in KC.
You have to accidentally drive it once to know what I mean (and it seems to go on for miles and miles).

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## kevinpate

Years back, there were places I would go between 10 pm and 3 am that a lot of folks I know would feel uneasy going in daylight hours. Couldn't be helped. That's when folks were home and awake, some due to having worked more than one shift or job, some because 9 or 10 am was no different for them than 5 or 6 am was for me, the typical start of the day. Though if we were seeing someone at 2-3, the next office day did tend to start a bit later unless it was straight back in after an interview was over.  

Even today, there's not really anywhere in the metro where I would divert myself around it, day or night, but yes, some areas my sense of awareness is a tad higher than it other areas. Let's be real.  Some peeps wearing certain colors can be intent on messing with you.  But to be fair, most patrol officers are really quite calm and collected day or night.

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## bradh

> There is NOWHERE in OKC that compares--in sheer drive-thru uneasiness--to Prospect Avenue, South of I-70, in KC.
> You have to accidentally drive it once to know what I mean (and it seems to go on for miles and miles).


I was just around 31st and Prospect Friday afternoon.  

The parts of the 5th ward in Houston I saw were straight up projects like you'd see in rap videos.  (for reference of this area, the area in this video is the 5th ward Dizzee Rascal-Where Da G&#39;s - YouTube), and you'd raise some eyebrows just strolling through there no matter the time of day.

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## CuatrodeMayo

South Chicago...it went on for miles...

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## bluedogok

> South Chicago...it went on for miles...


Especially in the early to mid 90's when the burned out shells of those towers were still around and people were still living in the unburned units. Only one tower left now and it is vacant.

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## RadicalModerate

> I was just around 31st and Prospect Friday afternoon.  
> 
> The parts of the 5th ward in Houston I saw were straight up projects like you'd see in rap videos.  (for reference of this area, the area in this video is the 5th ward Dizzee Rascal-Where Da G's - YouTube), and you'd raise some eyebrows just strolling through there no matter the time of day.


Hope you had a chance to "lunch" at Arthur Bryant's near 12th St. and Vine.

To paraphrase Hoyt Axton . . .
_Well, I've never been to Compton,
but I've been to Kansas City.
Seen the debris and the sh!tty
Wish I was in OKCity._
(poetic license =)

Say!  Maybe the Revitalization of NW OKC could include a Blues Club!
Dedicated, with sincere appreciation and a tip o' the proverbial hat, to Cuatrodemayo , <above> =)
Note to Music Fans: it is the entire album. let it play.

(This was on Vanguard Records--back in the day.  Ironic? Iconic? mebbe. =)

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## adaniel

There are no places in this state, and very few places in the United States that one could drive in during the day and have to worry about their safety. In the past few years I have driven through both The Bronx (Mott Haven) and Watts, Los Angeles and nobody yanked me from my car and pistol whipped me for my Raybans. Some parts of Watts were quite attractive, although many houses did have burglar bars on them. In fact I stopped at a gas station and most people were, _gasp_, pleasant. Now this isn't to say these areas don't have serious issues but most folks that live in these areas are hardworking working class fellow Americans. 

Honestly, all this is just further proof how much this country has jumped the shark and succumb to fear. I blame it on the internet, personally. I knew a girl who went on a business trip to the east coast and actually demanded her flight be changed because she didn't want to connect in Detroit. She had heard how crime ridden Detroit was and was so fearful that she would be mugged or raped _in the airport_. Never mind the DTW is like 20 miles outside the city.

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## RadicalModerate

Re: Post 195, above.

Couldn't have stated it better myself.  Thank you.

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## bradh

That's pretty sad, adaniel.  Scared to fly through DTW?

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## adaniel

I've known her and her family for some time now. They were seemingly normal people until about 3 years ago when her dad became an Alex Jones/doomsday prepper fanatic. In doing so, he started spouting off kookery about how rapists, murderers, and criminal evildoers are everywhere lurking in the shadows ready to pounce. This has started rubbing off on her, unfortunately. 

I remember when she first told me about this and I actually laughed about it because I thought she was joking. She got really offended and had such a look of terror in her face, as if the mere act of flying over Detroit would get you shot by people on the ground lol. Last time I checked bullets don't go thousands of feet up in the air. The really sad thing is that I am noticing an irrational level of fear like this starting to take over a pretty large segment of society.

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## Jim Kyle

> The really sad thing is that I am noticing an irrational level of fear like this starting to take over a pretty large segment of society.


I don't think that's any accident, either. It seems to be an orchestrated effort among all the mass media and many officials, to a degree that Josef Goebbels would admire were he still around to see it.

When it becomes sufficiently pervasive, it will be time for The Man on the White Horse to come save us from the threats...

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## Rover

> I don't think that's any accident, either. It seems to be an orchestrated effort among all the mass media and many officials, to a degree that Josef Goebbels would admire were he still around to see it.
> 
> When it becomes sufficiently pervasive, it will be time for The Man on the White Horse to come save us from the threats...


Are you being serious or sarcastic?  Surely not serious.  If so, this is akin to not flying through Detroit.  

Some people must still check under their bed for the boogieman before they can go to sleep.

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## Spartan

> Classen SAS is not "in the hood".  Gatewood UCD is a wonderful neighborhood with a great amenity in the Plaza District.  I'm raising my family here.


Anyone who declares that Classen SAS is in the hood should first see if they can afford a new home across the street...lol

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## Jim Kyle

> Are you being serious or sarcastic?  Surely not serious.  If so, this is akin to not flying through Detroit.


I'm serious, although it *might* be only a result of intense competition on the part of the mass media, that makes the run-up to the war with Spain 110 years ago seem tame by comparison. However TPTB at the DHS and TSA certainly have been working overtime to keep the populace fearful, and where there's so much excrement I tend to suspect a pony somewhere in the vicinity...

A historian from whom I took several college courses back in the 50s confidently predicted we would have a second Civil War by 1990, based on the growing divide between the "haves" and "have-nots." He didn't live to see his prediction fail, and I'm quite glad that it did fail -- but the driving forces he saw some 60 years ago are still there, and we seem to have a totally dysfunctional federal government at the present time. In fact, that very lack of functionality seems to be the strongest argument *against* my observation!

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## Just the facts

Forget what happened to NW OKC, what the hell happened to this thread?

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## Plutonic Panda

I'm just going to say this, if there is one place you should NOT drive around after 10pm, it is downtown Houston. The majority of it dies off after 10-11pm and it gets bad, REAL FAST! Trust me on this one.

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## Mel

I went up that way today and the NW portion of OKC was still there.

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## bluedogok

> I'm just going to say this, if there is one place you should NOT drive around after 10pm, it is downtown Houston. The majority of it dies off after 10-11pm and it gets bad, REAL FAST! Trust me on this one.


I have walked around there about that time after a baseball game and never felt anything strange. Went and found some pizza and waled back to the Magnolia.

The only place that I have been kind of creeped out was at a cell site in Cleveland east of downtown (Deadmans curve area) and that was during the day. Nothing happened, just had a weird feeling about the place, just sort of remote and somewhat hidden, next to the tracks and I-90. No issues with the rest of the Cleveland metro area.

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## Teo9969

> I'm just going to say this, if there is one place you should NOT drive around after 10pm, it is downtown Houston. The majority of it dies off after 10-11pm and it gets bad, REAL FAST! Trust me on this one.


You should probably define "downtown"...because I've never even been remotely worried when I've been in downtown Houston past 10PM.

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## zookeeper

Downtown Houston? What about Northwest Oklahoma City? The subject of this thread! Any volunteers to show how safe the following neighborhoods are? 

All you'd need to do is one of the below after dark:

1. Take a walk down 23rd street from Rockwell to Meridian and back.
2. Take a walk down 10th street from Meridian to Council and back.
3. Take a walk down Wilshire Blvd. and go south on Lyrewood Lane to 63rd and back
4. Take a nice Sunday evening stroll down Wilshire, head north on Western and walk to 122nd and back.

Forget walking in downtown Houston after dark. Any takers for the life threatening experiment above?

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## Achilleslastand

> Downtown Houston? What about Northwest Oklahoma City? The subject of this thread! Any volunteers to show how safe the following neighborhoods are? 
> 
> All you'd need to do is one of the below after dark:
> 
> 1. Take a walk down 23rd street from Rockwell to Meridian and back.
> 2. Take a walk down 10th street from Meridian to Council and back.
> 3. Take a walk down Wilshire Blvd. and go south on Lyrewood Lane to 63rd and back
> 4. Take a nice Sunday evening stroll down Wilshire, head north on Western and walk to 122nd and back.
> 
> Forget walking in downtown Houston after dark. Any takers for the life threatening experiment above?


Whats the prize?

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## bradh

> 3. Take a walk down Wilshire Blvd. and go south on Lyrewood Lane to 63rd and back


This is the roughest one you posted

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## tomokc

> Downtown Houston? What about Northwest Oklahoma City? The subject of this thread! Any volunteers to show how safe the following neighborhoods are? 
> 
> All you'd need to do is one of the below after dark:
> 
> 1. Take a walk down 23rd street from Rockwell to Meridian and back.
> 2. Take a walk down 10th street from Meridian to Council and back.
> 3. Take a walk down Wilshire Blvd. and go south on Lyrewood Lane to 63rd and back
> 4. Take a nice Sunday evening stroll down Wilshire, head north on Western and walk to 122nd and back.
> 
> Forget walking in downtown Houston after dark. Any takers for the life threatening experiment above?


Sounds like a plan for the next OKCTalk meetup. Who can suggest a really rough biker bar for drinks afterwards?

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## mkjeeves

Biker bar? I thought most bikers these days were dentists?

Anyway, there's plenty more sketchy areas in OKC I wouldn't walk through at night than what you have listed.

Oklahoma City crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout

Much of the inner city doesn't fair that well, especially compared to NW OKC.

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## mkjeeves

Maybe you could rattle the chains on this place and ask for a beer. I believe some bikers used to hang out there and it's a lovely neighborhood.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=1940+...m5nitW5qaXl_mQ

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## adaniel

> I'm just going to say this, if there is one place you should NOT drive around after 10pm, it is downtown Houston. The majority of it dies off after 10-11pm and it gets bad, REAL FAST! Trust me on this one.


Are you referring to the Central Business District? Because I have walked by myself through there and it was no big deal. Just a couple of homeless bums, but nothing worse than what you would see in OKC.

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## RadicalModerate

> Sounds like a plan for the next OKCTalk meetup. Who can suggest a really rough biker bar for drinks afterwards?


Since Tricky Dick's, Bosco's, Sinbad's and any of the ever changing cluster of extra low-life "Entertainment Venues" at 10th and MacArthur aren't around anymore, I really don't have any good suggestions . . .  (as usual)

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## mkjeeves

> Since Tricky Dick's, Bosco's, Sinbad's and any of the ever changing cluster of extra low-life "Entertainment Venues" at 10th and MacArthur aren't around anymore, I really don't have any good suggestions . . .  (as usual)


Isn't that corner owned by someone named Shadid? If so, is there any family ties with the other Shadid?

As far as biker bars go, remember the Draught Board somewhere on May across the street from about where Lynn Hickey was?

The former Lamplighter on 10th street is now Margarita Island or somesuch and seems to draw a crowd along with some bikes. They don't look like 1% bikers.

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## SouthsideSooner

> Biker bar? I thought most bikers these days were dentists?
> 
> Anyway, there's plenty more sketchy areas in OKC I wouldn't walk through at night than what you have listed.
> 
> Oklahoma City crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout
> 
> Much of the inner city doesn't fair that well, especially compared to NW OKC.


Interesting map... I'd like to see one that seperates violent crime and property crime...

I thought it was interesting that one of the worst areas highlighted is S.W 74th and May. Oklahoma City Community College is on the SW corner of that intersection and although there are some sketchy apartment complexes nearby, I don't think many of us in proximity to that area consider it to be unsafe... 

I'm not really afraid of any area of OKC but it was also interesting that when scrolling down that page, OKC is listed as safer than only 4% of cities in the U.S...

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## Rover

> Isn't that corner owned by someone named Shadid? If so, is there any family ties with the other Shadid?


Yes, they are closely related.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Are you referring to the Central Business District? Because I have walked by myself through there and it was no big deal. Just a couple of homeless bums, but nothing worse than what you would see in OKC.


I will search on Google maps and find out where exactly I was. I've been there twice, late at night and had really bad experiences.

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## Teo9969

> Downtown Houston? What about Northwest Oklahoma City? The subject of this thread! Any volunteers to show how safe the following neighborhoods are? 
> 
> All you'd need to do is one of the below after dark:
> 
> 1. Take a *walk* down 23rd street from Rockwell to Meridian and back.
> 2. Take a *walk* down 10th street from Meridian to Council and back.
> 3. Take a *walk* down Wilshire Blvd. and go south on Lyrewood Lane to 63rd and back
> 4. Take a nice Sunday *evening stroll* down Wilshire, head north on Western and walk to 122nd and back.
> 
> Forget *walking* in downtown Houston after dark. Any takers for the life threatening experiment above?


Try again...

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## Teo9969

That really could be made into a fun bet though.

The two sides:

1. We'll get robbed/mugged
2. We won't get robbed/mugged

The bet:

Two people take a walk. The person who takes position 1 carries the agreed upon bet amount in their pocket. The person who takes position 2 leaves twice the same amount in the car which is parked in a secure location.

If the 2 are not robbed/mugged, then the money in Better 1's pocket goes to Better 2's. If they are robbed/mugged, person 1 gives double the amount to person 2, half for the reimbursement and half for the won bet.

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## zookeeper

> Try again...


Why the big deal about walking? I based my post on Bluedog's post:
http://www.okctalk.com/ask-anything-...tml#post695725

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## Bunty

> I'm just going to say this, if there is one place you should NOT drive around after 10pm, it is downtown Houston. The majority of it dies off after 10-11pm and it gets bad, REAL FAST! Trust me on this one.


You mean derelicts and alcoholics start wondering around asking for your money at stop lights and won't take no for an answer?

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## RadicalModerate

> Downtown Houston? What about Northwest Oklahoma City? The subject of this thread! Any volunteers to show how safe the following neighborhoods are? 
> 
> All you'd need to do is one of the below after dark:
> 
> 1. Take a walk down 23rd street from Rockwell to Meridian and back.
> 2. Take a walk down 10th street from Meridian to Council and back.
> 3. Take a walk down Wilshire Blvd. and go south on Lyrewood Lane to 63rd and back
> 4. Take a nice Sunday evening stroll down Wilshire, head north on Western and walk to 122nd and back.
> 
> Forget walking in downtown Houston after dark. Any takers for the life threatening experiment above?

----------


## Teo9969

> Why the big deal about walking? I based my post on Bluedog's post:
> http://www.okctalk.com/ask-anything-...tml#post695725


Bluedog's post was a casual and tertiary reply to something Plu Pan said (and mainly because Plu Pan didn't define what he meant by downtown)

Plu Pan, however, said not to *drive* through downtown houston, and everyone in this thread is talking about the silliness of being afraid to *drive* through an area. It's a whole different ball game if you're talking about walking through rough neighborhoods.

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## bluedogok

> Isn't that corner owned by someone named Shadid? If so, is there any family ties with the other Shadid?
> 
> As far as biker bars go, remember the Draught Board somewhere on May across the street from about where Lynn Hickey was?
> 
> The former Lamplighter on 10th street is now Margarita Island or somesuch and seems to draw a crowd along with some bikes. They don't look like 1% bikers.





> Yes, they are closely related.


There are quite a few of the Shadid family in business in OKC, I lost track of how many there were a long time ago.

I worked at Britton & Broadway for 11 years, about 2 years of that was on a night shift and a lot of other nights spent there when I was working days. Had a friend who grew up at 88th & Classen and as bad as that area can be I never felt "threatened" driving through there to see her or going home when I lived in The Village. Had some friends who lived in the neighborhood behind the Lyrewood apartmentville, while it looks bad I think it's reputation is worse than actuality. Most crime in those areas seems to be among known acquaintances and not just random crime on innocents wandering through.

To some people a place that doesn't look pristine and almost Truman Show-ish is "sketchy", they just need to stay in their suburban bubble if they are that afraid of the rest of the world.

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## mkjeeves

> There are quite a few of the Shadid family in business in OKC, I lost track of how many there were a long time ago.
> 
> I worked at Britton & Broadway for 11 years, about 2 years of that was on a night shift and a lot of other nights spent there when I was working days. Had a friend who grew up at 88th & Classen and as bad as that area can be I never felt "threatened" driving through there to see her or going home when I lived in The Village. Had some friends who lived in the neighborhood behind the Lyrewood apartmentville, while it looks bad I think it's reputation is worse than actuality. Most crime in those areas seems to be among known acquaintances and not just random crime on innocents wandering through.
> 
> To some people a place that doesn't look pristine and almost Truman Show-ish is "sketchy", *they just need to stay in their suburban bubble if they are that afraid of the rest of the world.*


The crime map linked above also supports that as the safest place to be. I don't think it was suburbanites fearing NW OKC for the most part though.

I regularly drive NW 10th from Council to the urban core, day and night, frequent the businesses along the way and never feel scared. I have on a couple of occasions been in other parts of the city that did scare me, south side, capitol hill mainly. (The only place I've seen a random dead body homicide victim.) But it doesn't scare me driving through and I still go there on business pretty regularly in the daytime. (I haven't had a reason to go there at night.) Things seem to have settled down a bit there too. I quit watching local news some time ago which may have something to do with my perspective.

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## TechArch

Some good news for NW OKC - the apartments on Portland between NW23rd and NW36th across from Will Rogers Park are under new ownership.  Work has already begun on renovating one of the buildings (probably as a model apartment building to show possible renters).  The new exterior is siding but it looks a lot better than the existing buildings.  The new name of the complex is Portland Peake.

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## bluedogok

> The crime map linked above also supports that as the safest place to be. I don't think it was suburbanites fearing NW OKC for the most part though.
> 
> I regularly drive NW 10th from Council to the urban core, day and night, frequent the businesses along the way and never feel scared. I have on a couple of occasions been in other parts of the city that did scare me, south side, capitol hill mainly. (The only place I've seen a random dead body homicide victim.) But it doesn't scare me driving through and I still go there on business pretty regularly in the daytime. (I haven't had a reason to go there at night.) Things seem to have settled down a bit there too. I quit watching local news some time ago which may have something to do with my perspective.


I grew up close to there (Hilldale area) and my father is involved with the West Tenth neighborhood group as they still live in the same house. I get to see the area whenever I am back in town. The area has definitely changed a lot in the 48 years they have lived there.

----------

