# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  Downtown Parking

## Larry OKC

Found this article by Steve interesting:

http://newsok.com/new-public-parking...dline_business
*New public parking cited as downtown challenge* (_Oklahoman_, Lackmeyer, 7/17/11)



> O'Connor sees two big challenges ahead for downtown: *the need for new public parking* and an uncertain future with First National Center.
> 
> O'Connor notes workers with Continental Resources and Enogex, along with SandRidge's growing workforce, will quickly absorb the space left behind at the Santa Fe Garage by Devon employees when they move to the expanded City Center West garage at Park and Hudson Avenues.


I know that many here don't think there is a parking problem downtown. I accept that. What do you all think of former Asst. City Manager O'Connor's comments?

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## Architect2010

That, that garage better be nice, and that COPTA should focus on improving some of their existing monstrosities before they plan to build more. 

Just kiddddiiiiiinngggg...

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## rcjunkie

> Found this article by Steve interesting:
> 
> http://newsok.com/new-public-parking...dline_business
> *New public parking cited as downtown challenge* (_Oklahoman_, Lackmeyer, 7/17/11)
> 
> 
> I know that many here don't think there is a parking problem downtown. I accept that. *What do you all think of former Asst. City Manager O'Connor's comments*?


That she's just as clueless as others, or that she hates to walk.

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## kevinpate

My DT or Bricktown parking challenge is limited to deciding do I wanna park easy, or do I wanna make a game of it and blow time trying to get closer than any of the right now open spots that exist.  Easy peasy to park in the metro.

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## Steve

Guys, parking is not a problem right now, nor is Cathy saying it is. But what she is saying is that with the new companies coming in over the next couple of years, the city will need to be proactive to assure that a problem doesn't pop up and stymie growth.

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## OKCNDN

So I guess a good question to ask is-How far is too far?  How many blocks away would you consider acceptable?

What is acceptable for OKC standards?  What do you think is acceptable under big city (NYC, Atlanta, Houston, Chicago) standards?

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## pickles

If we are to retain our title as the Parking Lot Capitol of North America we must be proactive.  The Stage Center would be a perfect spot for a nice big flat parking lot.

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## Just the facts

I would like to see them replace the Century Center with about a 20 story parking garage like these:

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## BDP

> O'Connor sees two big challenges ahead for downtown: the need for new public parking and an uncertain future with First National Center.


Considering that renovation downtown will not be viable for multiple generations, it takes much too long to walk anywhere downtown, and the fact that the FNC is ideally located in the exact center of the CBD, the solution is obvious to anyone paying attention to people who currently don't like to visit downtown: level the FNC and use the space to provide free parking. Surface lots are preferred because then you don't have to take stairs or wait for an elevator. We could probably even work a plaza or two in.

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## Larry OKC

> Guys, parking is not a problem right now, nor is Cathy saying it is. But what she is saying is that with the new companies coming in over the next couple of years, the city will need to be proactive to assure that a problem doesn't pop up and stymie growth.


Thats the way I read it too, but it goes along with what I was saying over in the other Enogox(?) thread.

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## bombermwc

BDP - are you kidding me? Everything about that post goes against everything we stand for on this forum.

First off, how can anyone justify dozing FNC? Second, surface??? really? Not only is it the most inefficient way to create parking, but are you really so lazy that you can't use stairs...or an elevator? That flawed view of things is what got Oklahomas the fattest in the country.

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## Just the facts

bombermwc - I think BDP was being sarcastic.  You of all people should love the automated parking garage idea.  No looking for a parking space at all, no elevators or stairs to take, and no traffic jams trying to leave.

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## metro

yay, another thread on downtown parking "challenges"

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## Larry OKC

At least this one is dedicated to it and not a hijack!

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## FritterGirl

That automatic concept is really interesting, but at :60 seconds per car retrieval, I can only imagine 100 or so people lined up right after work waiting for their cars one at a time. I'm not sure we have the patience for that.

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## kevinpate

> ... I'm not sure we have the patience for that.



I'm sure ....  we don't.

Just watch folks in any short light left turn lane for clear proof.

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## MikeOKC

> I would like to see them replace the Century Center with about a 20 story parking garage like these:



When past is prologue.......right here in downtown Oklahoma City (once upon a time). It did the same thing running the levels on gears.

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## Just the facts

> That automatic concept is really interesting, but at :60 seconds per car retrieval, I can only imagine 100 or so people lined up right after work waiting for their cars one at a time. I'm not sure we have the patience for that.


I thought about that also but here is the thing.  In the one video it took 40 seconds to retrieve the car.  As soon as the car is dropped off the machine goes and gets the next one.  It take about 15 seconds to get in the car, put on the seatbelt, turn it on, and drive away.  In less than 25 seconds another car will be delivered.  Plus, most of these garages have mutiple retrival systems so more than one car can be retrieved at a time.  I would rather wait in a line of people to get my car than to wait in my car sitting in traffic.  Because cars would enter the roadway in a metered fashion it would improve traffic as well.  Finally, these systems are used in major cities all over the world, and were used in OKC at one time (my wife said she used to park in one back in the day).  Whatever timing issues they have, they seem to have that worked out.

Here is one in Germany.



For those people that are building urban houses in midtown, try this.

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## MikeOKC

I love the idea. They've come a long way since the "automated garage" days at the old Huckins Hotel as shown in that postcard. I especially like the picture of the circular garage in Germany. Looking at the pic 'garage' doesn't even seem like the appropriate word.

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## Just the facts

> I love the idea. They've come a long way since the "automated garage" days at the old Huckins Hotel as shown in that postcard. I especially like the picture of the circular garage in Germany. Looking at the pic 'garage' doesn't even seem like the appropriate word.


They actually have two towers.  Here is what they look like from the outside.  These are probably too cool to be used in Oklahoma.

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## kevinpate

curious.  anyone know how construction costs compare?  How rates to park compare?

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## Larry OKC

Wow. those pics remind me a lot of a Hot Wheels storage case I had growing up. LOL

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## Just the facts

> Wow. those pics remind me a lot of a Hot Wheels storage case I had growing up. LOL


You mean you stored all your Hot Wheels in some kind of container and didn't space them out in a single layer of rows all over your bedroom floor?

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## Just the facts

> curious.  anyone know how construction costs compare?  How rates to park compare?


http://westhollywood.patch.com/artic...king-structure




> Construction will begin in June 2012 on an automated five-story parking structure at West Hollywood City Hall. With state-of-the-art technology, this new computerized parking structure will offer a valet-like experience where people leave their cars and the automated system then stores the vehicles in parking berths using motorized lifts, conveyers and shuttles. When a person is ready to leave, the system will then retrieve his or her car.
> 
> ...
> 
> It will have the capacity for 200 cars, compared with the 66 spaces available in the current lot that the automated parking structure will replace. 
> 
> ...
> 
> The city toyed with the idea of the automated parking system when it first started discussing the parking problem at City Hall four years ago, but the cost at that time was prohibitive—$40,000 to $50,000 per parking space. However, the price has come down drastically in the past year, making it a viable option at $13,200 per space.
> ...


Based on these number you could build a 500 space garage for $6.6 million if you didn't include all the plazas and public space.  To flash back to a comment made by FritterGirl earlier, you probably wouldn't build 1000 car garages like this becasue the footprint is so small compared to a traditional garage it would be cheaper to build five 200 space garages that could deliver cars 5X faster than a single mega-garage.  With an automated system like this Devon could have cut the space required for parking by 80%.

At the corner of Sheridan and Oklahoma Ave, in the heart of Bricktown, there is a 44 car parking lot that could easily be converted into parking for 400 cars using this technology, with room for ground level retail I might add.

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## rcjunkie

> Wow. those pics remind me a lot of a Hot Wheels storage case I had growing up. LOL


I was thinking the same thing, I'm 52 and still have mine and most of the hot wheels as well, My son and I collect them, some are quite valuable.

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## BDP

> Wow. those pics remind me a lot of a Hot Wheels storage case I had growing up. LOL


Yes. Sad and funny that Hot Wheels can think of a more efficient and attractive way to store toy cars than we can in real life.

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## Larry OKC

> I was thinking the same thing, I'm 52 and still have mine and most of the hot wheels as well, My son and I collect them, some are quite valuable.


Sadly I don't have any of my Hot Wheels left. Most jumped the track and ran along the boards until they found a wide enough crack in the floor boards of the walk-in atticand disappeared. there is a Hot Wheels graveyard in a house in Little Rock...

I do have boxes and boxes of my Hot Wheels track somewhere in my parents garage...there may be a car or two come to think of it that may have survived. Mine were the cars you charged and ran on their own...




> You mean you stored all your Hot Wheels in some kind of container and didn't space them out in a single layer of rows all over your bedroom floor?


 No. LOL Well, except for the ones under the floor boards mentioned above...

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## hipsterdoofus

Still surprised that no one remembers the lack of parking on the West side (where Devon bought the garage).  Putting a garage in bricktown or automobile alley won't help that.  Apparently at one point, the city thought it worthwhile to have parking there, but now that hundreds more work in the area, it isn't as important.

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## OSUMom

I agree Hip.  Putting a garage in AA or bricktown isn't going to help DT parking at all.  I park in Broadway-Kerr.  Rumor has it we will able to park there for quite some time but that is up to Sandridge.  What if they decide they need all the spaces and kick everyone else out?  Those 800 new curbside that project 180 is supposed to create isn't going to help.  A garage in Bricktown isn't going to help.  Is there room in Santa Fe for all the people kicked out of Broadway-Kerr, which includes the valet parking from the Skirvin.  I'm not happy with the callous attitude of Rick Cain in Steve's article.  To talk about the need for more DT parking then in almost the same sentence mention AA and Bricktown?

Maybe I'm overreacting.  I hope I am.  I hope Sandridge doesn't kick anybody out for years to come.

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## rcjunkie

> I agree Hip.  Putting a garage in AA or bricktown isn't going to help DT parking at all.  I park in Broadway-Kerr.  Rumor has it we will able to park there for quite some time but that is up to Sandridge.  What if they decide they need all the spaces and kick everyone else out?  Those 800 new curbside that project 180 is supposed to create isn't going to help.  A garage in Bricktown isn't going to help.  Is there room in Santa Fe for all the people kicked out of Broadway-Kerr, which includes the valet parking from the Skirvin.  I'm not happy with the callous attitude of Rick Cain in Steve's article.  To talk about the need for more DT parking then in almost the same sentence mention AA and Bricktown?
> 
> Maybe I'm overreacting.  I hope I am.  I hope Sandridge doesn't kick anybody out for years to come.


Depending on the location in Bricktown, it would only be an additional 3--4 block walk and most could use the exercise.

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## Spartan

> I agree Hip.  Putting a garage in AA or bricktown isn't going to help DT parking at all.  I park in Broadway-Kerr.  Rumor has it we will able to park there for quite some time but that is up to Sandridge.  What if they decide they need all the spaces and kick everyone else out?  Those 800 new curbside that project 180 is supposed to create isn't going to help.  A garage in Bricktown isn't going to help.  Is there room in Santa Fe for all the people kicked out of Broadway-Kerr, which includes the valet parking from the Skirvin.  I'm not happy with the callous attitude of Rick Cain in Steve's article.  To talk about the need for more DT parking then in almost the same sentence mention AA and Bricktown?
> 
> Maybe I'm overreacting.  I hope I am.  I hope Sandridge doesn't kick anybody out for years to come.


Maybe it's not best for downtown workers, but it's hard to argue that the city doesn't get more out of putting a public garage in Bricktown or AA. From the sounds of it, they're also wanting to leverage the remaining downtown public parking to incentivize mixed-use development in the core. You're seeing a priority shift (finally) from office to mixed-use becoming the preferred development type downtown.

And as rcjunkie mentioned, we are talking about a difference of 3-4 blocks, in a downtown that will be served by streetcar soon. I'm thinking the most likely new garage would be building the transit hub garage on Reno. That would serve both Bricktown, CBD, and Thunder games.

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## Just the facts

Why would you build a parking garage at a transit hub?  The whole purpose of a transit hub is to get people to ride transit, not make it easier for them to drive their own cars.  The only garage that should be at a transit hub is one to hold about 10 rental cars, and that is only if the OKC-Tulsa route comes into existance.

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## bombermwc

And just how are you going to get yourself to the station to hop on that train Just the Facts? If you've ever been to a city with a car culture like ours, you'll see that there has to be a place to park your car for you to get on the thing. Since there is no suburban hub, if you want people to use it downtown, they need a place close by to park before they get on. It's just like you would have at a suburban station...except we're forced to do it downtown since the line doesn't connect anywhere else.

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## OSUMom

3 or 4 blocks is a very long way when it is raining or icy.  And I will believe a street car that DT workers can take from a parking garage to their offices when I see one.  I already walk about 3 blocks to work.  You think adding 3 or 4 more is no big deal?  If they are selling off DT parking garages to private companies for private use they have a responsibility to make sure there is still enough parking.  When I read that article I wanted to hear what their plans were for replacing lost parking spaces.  Not how happy they were that now they were debt free and can look into giving other areas garages.

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## Rover

If it is a serious transportation hub with intercity train service it will have to have affordable overnight parking nearby.  If we want a system to go from bar to bar at night and only be used by downtowners, I guess we don't need one.

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## Just the facts

Bomber, are you seriously going to drive in from Midwest City and go to Midtown, via stopping at the downtown hub and riding the streetcar.  Just go park in Midtown.  If your destination is Bricktown then park in Bricktown.  I can't think of a single city in the world that has a parking garage at their transit hub.  Not saying it doesn't exist, but I have looked at a lot of system I have yet to see it.

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## SkyWestOKC

Kerry, if you are taking Amtrack to Dallas....are you going to walk from Midwest City to the train station?

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## Just the facts

> *3 or 4 blocks is a very long way when it is raining or icy.*  And I will believe a street car that DT workers can take from a parking garage to their offices when I see one.  I already walk about 3 blocks to work.  You think adding 3 or 4 more is no big deal?  If they are selling off DT parking garages to private companies for private use they have a responsibility to make sure there is still enough parking.  When I read that article I wanted to hear what their plans were for replacing lost parking spaces.  Not how happy they were that now they were debt free and can look into giving other areas garages.


People do it everyday in cities around the world.  Have you thought about moving downtown and just avoiding the whole driving thing?

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## OSUMom

> People do it everyday in cities around the world.  Have you thought about moving downtown and just avoiding the whole driving thing?


My family and I are happy in our house, thank you.  When the last kid is gone we have discussed looking into some of the places around DT but doubt we will because of cost.

And I don't care what other cities do or other people do.  I have a right to be irritated when the head of the parking garage system acts like losing so much DT parking is no big deal and how wonderful it is that they have no more debt, and can look into putting parking in other places.  Knowing that more people are coming DT to work.  Maybe when DT workers are taking up all the fancy new curbside parking all day long they might rethink the importance of it.

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## betts

In most cities a three or four block walk to work is not a big deal at all.  An umbrella is a handy thing to have.  When the streetcar is completed, on a particularly bad day one could hop aboard the streetcar and likely get closer.  I too would like to see the next parking garage be the hub garage, if it's feasible to build it before the hub expansion.  That would create a short walk to either Bricktown or the CBD for commuters or downtown visitors.

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## metro

> My family and I are happy in our house, thank you.  When the last kid is gone we have discussed looking into some of the places around DT but doubt we will because of cost.
> 
> And I don't care what other cities do or other people do.  I have a right to be irritated when the head of the parking garage system acts like losing so much DT parking is no big deal and how wonderful it is that they have no more debt, and can look into putting parking in other places.  Knowing that more people are coming DT to work.  Maybe when DT workers are taking up all the fancy new curbside parking all day long they might rethink the importance of it.


Like many people in this city, I think you have a misconception for what a healthy downtown should be like.

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## Just the facts

> My family and I are happy in our house, thank you.


Are you sure, because you seem to hate your future commute to work?  Also, is the Conn-course an option for you?

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## Just the facts

> Kerry, if you are taking Amtrack to Dallas....are you going to walk from Midwest City to the train station?


How do people do it now?  200 people ride Amtrak to Ft Worth every morning.  However, like Rover suggested, if inter-city rail comes to OKC then a garage for those people would be warranted.  But that is at least 20 years away.  Why would the City/State/Region spend money to create commuter rail and then build a parking garage for commuters right next to the final destination?  It would make the whole thing self-defeating.  Build the parking garages in downtown Norman and downtown Edmond and let people park their cars their.  Then we get pedestrians at both ends of the trip - or better yet, it urbanizes dowtown Edmond and Norman even more by people moving to be close to those train stations.

A lot of you seem be trying to build mass transit systems using the automobile as a primary design consideration.  Try thinking in terms of eliminating the car from the entire equation.  We shouldn't be trying to supplement the car, we should be trying to free people from it.  Eliminate the 20 miles drive, not just the last 3 blocks of it.

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## OSUMom

OKC is not NYC.  We do not have a great public transportation system.  You can't snap your fingers and made it so overnight.  Just because you want an urban DT where no cars exist doesn't make it feasible for those that work there now.

Someone said project 180 is going to add 800 more curbside spots.  When DT workers are filling those spaces up all day long maybe the city will decide that parking DT is important.

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## OSUMom

> Are you sure, because you seem to hate your future commute to work?  Also, is the Conn-course an option for you?



I have no problem with my commute.  I'm irked with the possibility of the city selling away my parking garage without plans to make sure there is enough parking for those of us displaced.

What do you mean by the Conn-course?

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## Just the facts

> I have no problem with my commute.  I'm irked with the possibility of the city selling away my parking garage without plans to make sure there is enough parking for those of us displaced.
> 
> What do you mean by the Conn-course?


The Conn-course is the underground/skywalk pedestrian system.

http://www.downtownokc.com/Portals/0...map%202007.pdf

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## Just the facts

> OKC is not NYC.  We do not have a great public transportation system.  You can't snap your fingers and made it so overnight.  Just because you want an urban DT where no cars exist doesn't make it feasible for those that work there now.
> 
> Someone said project 180 is going to add 800 more curbside spots.  When DT workers are filling those spaces up all day long maybe the city will decide that parking DT is important.


I imagine there will be a 2 hour time limit on the parking meters so I don't know how many workers will be using those space.  As for OKC not being NYC, I am not suggesting that we try.  All I am asking is that the City not defeat itself by pursuing counter-productive efforts.  At some point in the recent past OKC has decided to make an attempt at rebuilding sustainable traditional neighborhoods (a method of urban development that has been refined over thousands of years).  But that becomes hard to accomplish when other parts of the City keep trying to reproduce what hasn't been working (see my whole commentary on the location of the Senior Wellness Centers).

Again, I am not saying don't build a parking garage - just don't do it at the transit hub.  Personally, I would build a garage on the surface lot south of City Hall next to the Hightower Building.

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## Urban Pioneer

I think that there is a real opportunity to integrate streetcar service with a parking garage on the line.  We're at least a decade away from seeing any regional rail service.  Phase 1 streetcar service is about 4-5 years out.  The Sandridge campus will be flanked on both sides by northbound and southbound lines.  The campus plaza is also a great location to interface with the underground Conncourse, if there is a desire to do so.

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## OSUMom

> The Conn-course is the underground/skywalk pedestrian system.
> 
> http://www.downtownokc.com/Portals/0...map%202007.pdf


I use the tunnel now in bad weather.  It doesn't go to Bricktown or AA so I don't see how that would help if that is where they choose to build a new parking garage.

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## OSUMom

> I imagine there will be a 2 hour time limit on the parking meters so I don't know how many workers will be using those space.  As for OKC not being NYC, I am not suggesting that we try.  All I am asking is that the City not defeat itself by pursuing counter-productive efforts.  At some point in the recent past OKC has decided to make an attempt at rebuilding sustainable traditional neighborhoods (a method of urban development that has been refined over thousands of years).  But that becomes hard to accomplish when other parts of the City keep trying to reproduce what hasn't been working (see my whole commentary on the location of the Senior Wellness Centers).
> 
> Again, I am not saying don't build a parking garage - just don't do it at the transit hub.  Personally, I would build a garage on the surface lot south of City Hall next to the Hightower Building.




I would be ok with parking on the west side of DT as opposed to the east side.

And as for the 2 hour time limit on parking meters, I've heard of people feeding meters all day.  It isn't rampant, but I guarantee you if downtown businesses are told that available parking for employees is in AA or Bricktown, you will see a lot more of it.

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## Just the facts

> I think that there is a real opportunity to integrate streetcar service with a parking garage on the line.


That is what I am talking about.  It is one thing for parking garages to be located along the line (in fact, it would be impossible not to do it), but it wouldn't make sense to build a parking garage right next to a central hub that is only being built to accommodate future rail based commuters - otherwise, why even build a transit hub.

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## Spartan

> Why would you build a parking garage at a transit hub?  The whole purpose of a transit hub is to get people to ride transit, not make it easier for them to drive their own cars.  The only garage that should be at a transit hub is one to hold about 10 rental cars, and that is only if the OKC-Tulsa route comes into existance.


Oh my goodness, this is not your finest post if you want to show that you have much knowledge of what's going on. I would encourage you to take a look at the transit hub masterplan, which involves expanding Sante Fe Depot to be our "Grand Central Station." It won't just be the streetcar, but also commuter rail, LRT, and Amtrak--and it will involve a very large parking garage connected to the station at Reno Avenue. If memory serves me correctly, about 500 spaces.

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## Larry OKC

Spartan,  I agree. There are going to be plenty of folks that drive their cars in order to get to the transit hub. I don't see it as being that much different than driving your car to the airport, a park-n-ride lot or anything else. If a mass transit option isn't conveniently located to where you are already at, then you have to be able to get to it somehow...



> ...Why would the City/State/Region spend money to create commuter rail and then build a parking garage for commuters right next to the final destination?...


But that is the point, the transit hub is NOT the final destination, just a place to connect with the next transit means to get you to your final destination.

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## ljbab728

> Bomber, are you seriously going to drive in from Midwest City and go to Midtown, via stopping at the downtown hub and riding the streetcar.  Just go park in Midtown.  If your destination is Bricktown then park in Bricktown.  I can't think of a single city in the world that has a parking garage at their transit hub.  Not saying it doesn't exist, but I have looked at a lot of system I have yet to see it.


Kerry, please note this article which projects 2,000,000 square feet of parking in Denver in their new transportation hub development.

http://www.unionstationneighborhoodc...ail.aspx?id=11

Just as in OKC, not all of the parking will directed at those who use the transportation hub.

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## kevinpate

why wouldn't there be a need for parking near a multi-mode transit hub?  Presumably there would be folks using the hub who are traveling away from OKC as well as traveling to OKC. They need parking as well, unless they'll ride a city bus or a cab in from where ever they live.

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## Lauri101

> 3 or 4 blocks is a very long way when it is raining or icy.  And I will believe a street car that DT workers can take from a parking garage to their offices when I see one.  I already walk about 3 blocks to work.  You think adding 3 or 4 more is no big deal?  If they are selling off DT parking garages to private companies for private use they have a responsibility to make sure there is still enough parking.  When I read that article I wanted to hear what their plans were for replacing lost parking spaces.  Not how happy they were that now they were debt free and can look into giving other areas garages.


I agree with OSUMom, with additional reasons.  I have moderate to severe RA.  I know that exercise is good and I walk when I can, but there are times when a walk of even a block is agonizing. "Handicapped" accessible parking is more than a block from the IRS building.  We have had taxpayers in wheelchairs come in and tell us they've had to park blocks away and (especially now) not even have sidewalks to navigate.  GSA will not let us leave the CBD as some idiot thinks we can serve more of our customer base from DT.  Maybe that's true in NYC or Chicago, but not in OKC.
Government (county, state and federal) employees don't get employer-supplied parking - we get to pay $75-100 a month for the privilege of parking to come to work.  I've probably paid enough in 27 years of DT working to purchase a small lot and I understand it's the price we pay.  All I ask for is the ability to come to work and park in a spot that is safe and a reasonable distance from my office.  
And for those of you who judge folks who are unable to walk 4 blocks - walk a block in my orthopedic shoes.

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## Just the facts

If a parking garage is built next to the central hub it will do nothing but rob commuter rail of passengers.

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## Just the facts

> Kerry, please note this article which projects 2,000,000 square feet of parking in Denver in their new transportation hub development.
> 
> http://www.unionstationneighborhoodc...ail.aspx?id=11
> 
> Just as in OKC, not all of the parking will directed at those who use the transportation hub.


I think that 2,000,000 sq feet of parking is for the 900,000 sq feet of residential.  They don't intend for people to drive their car to the central hub and then take local mass transit the final 4 or 5 blocks.

http://www.unionstationneighborhoodc...tail.aspx?id=6




> Through Transportation
> Downtown Denver is pedestrian friendly, to a point. You can get in and out of the city quickly, but there is one major problem with venturing downtown, parking. *An overabundance of two-hour meters and overly expensive parking garages is not the answer.* Denverites are looking for convenience. 
> And, convenience comes in the form of public transportation.
> 
> With the development of the Union Station Neighborhood, all of downtown Denver is connected. Connected through urban shuttles and buses, connected through pedestrian bridges and walkways, and finally, connected through light rail and commuter rail.
> 
> *It is easier to get from home to work to dinner, and back home again, using public transit than your automobile. Plus, it is more cost effective*.
> 
> A fluid public transportation system is the final, and most important, puzzle piece in the development of downtown Denver.

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## Just the facts

> I agree with OSUMom, with additional reasons.  I have moderate to severe RA.  I know that exercise is good and I walk when I can, but there are times when a walk of even a block is agonizing. "Handicapped" accessible parking is more than a block from the IRS building.  We have had taxpayers in wheelchairs come in and tell us they've had to park blocks away and (especially now) not even have sidewalks to navigate.  GSA will not let us leave the CBD as some idiot thinks we can serve more of our customer base from DT.  Maybe that's true in NYC or Chicago, but not in OKC.
> Government (county, state and federal) employees don't get employer-supplied parking - we get to pay $75-100 a month for the privilege of parking to come to work.  I've probably paid enough in 27 years of DT working to purchase a small lot and I understand it's the price we pay.  All I ask for is the ability to come to work and park in a spot that is safe and a reasonable distance from my office.  
> And for those of you who judge folks who are unable to walk 4 blocks - walk a block in my orthopedic shoes.


Out of curosity, what if you could park in a remote lot just outside downtown and be dropped off and picked up right at your office door by a private shuttle bus.  Would that be worth $150 per month (including the parking)?

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## Urban Pioneer

> I agree with OSUMom, with additional reasons.  I have moderate to severe RA.  I know that exercise is good and I walk when I can, but there are times when a walk of even a block is agonizing. "Handicapped" accessible parking is more than a block from the IRS building.  We have had taxpayers in wheelchairs come in and tell us they've had to park blocks away and (especially now) not even have sidewalks to navigate.  GSA will not let us leave the CBD as some idiot thinks we can serve more of our customer base from DT.  Maybe that's true in NYC or Chicago, but not in OKC.
> Government (county, state and federal) employees don't get employer-supplied parking - we get to pay $75-100 a month for the privilege of parking to come to work.  I've probably paid enough in 27 years of DT working to purchase a small lot and I understand it's the price we pay.  All I ask for is the ability to come to work and park in a spot that is safe and a reasonable distance from my office.  
> And for those of you who judge folks who are unable to walk 4 blocks - walk a block in my orthopedic shoes.


The streetcar will be running directly in front the IRS building and will provide low floor ADA accessibility for people in wheel chairs.  We haven't identified the stop locations yet, but presumably there will be two very nearby if not almost in front.

Regarding parking, Project 180 is adding many spaces although I would expect the IRS not to have any near the building for security/car bomb reasons post OKC and 9-11.  The same for any IRS building or Federal Courthouse.  Why they aren't even planting trees out front even though they were specced because the Federal Marshals asked them not to.

----------


## ljbab728

> I think that 2,000,000 sq feet of parking is for the 900,000 sq feet of residential.  They don't intend for people to drive their car to the central hub and then take local mass transit the final 4 or 5 blocks.
> 
> http://www.unionstationneighborhoodc...tail.aspx?id=6


You can think that all you want.  I saw nothing that validates that reasoning.  Are you actually trying to say that a residential development requires more square feet for parking than for the residential?  Just as I said before, the parking that Denver is planning is for multiple reasons just as the OKC parking would be.  Our parking is not intended just for the transportation hub.

----------


## Lauri101

> Out of curosity, what if you could park in a remote lot just outside downtown and be dropped off and picked up right at your office door by a private shuttle bus.  Would that be worth $150 per month (including the parking)?


Maybe, if the hours were right. (My TOD is 5 AM to 3 PM but somewhat flexible. ) Seems a bit steep on the shuttle bus ($2.50 a day avg) but would be worth it  in inclement weather.  For that kind of money, remote parking should be in a secured lot at least.  I know enough people in our building alone that would probably fill a 50 space lot with a deal like this - if the terms were right.  
If this is a serious possibility (versus idle speculation) please PM me.  Our employee's union would be interested in offering subsidies to members.

----------


## Just the facts

> Maybe, if the hours were right. (My TOD is 5 AM to 3 PM but somewhat flexible. ) Seems a bit steep on the shuttle bus ($2.50 a day avg) but would be worth it  in inclement weather.  For that kind of money, remote parking should be in a secured lot at least.  I know enough people in our building alone that would probably fill a 50 space lot with a deal like this - if the terms were right.  
> If this is a serious possibility (versus idle speculation) please PM me.  Our employee's union would be interested in offering subsidies to members.


Idle speculation at this point.

----------


## Just the facts

> You can think that all you want.  I saw nothing that validates that reasoning.  Are you actually trying to say that a residential development requires more square feet for parking than for the residential?  Just as I said before, the parking that Denver is planning is for multiple reasons just as the OKC parking would be.  Our parking is not intended just for the transportation hub.


I don't have to think it - I read it right on the Denver plan.  They don't want you to drive your car downtown to their station development, they want you take rail into downtown.  Most of the parking is for the people that will live there, but I am sure they also know that people working in the 2,500,000 sq feet of office/hotel space will also not all take the train.  I wonder how much of the parking is required by zoning laws.  I'll bet if they didn't have to they wouldn't provide any parking - but that is just specualtion on my part.

On Edit - I will call them on Monday and ask.

----------


## Urban Pioneer

Our parking in our hub plan is primarily for the future.  They assume that Santa Fe parking and the Cox Convention center underground garage resolves immediate Amtrak needs.  The planned future garage is primarily for inter-city/state High Speed Rail and car rental companies.  It would be located by the old U-Haul bldg in Brictown.  It is probably not needed for at least 15-20 years.

----------


## Just the facts

> Our parking in our hub plan is primarily for the future.  They assume that Santa Fe parking and the Cox Convention center underground garage resolves immediate Amtrak needs.  *The planned future garage is primarily for inter-city/state High Speed Rail and car rental companies.*  It would be located by the old U-Haul bldg in Brictown.  It is probably not needed for at least 15-20 years.


Thank you for clearing that up.  I am still interested in talking to someone at the Denver Rail Station project about their parking requirements.  Do you know anything about their parking situation?

----------


## Rover

I think that some on here would love to ban all automobiles and force everyone to look at the world in their own myopic sense. Nothing that can be said will change their mind. So be it.  LOL

I travel extensively and use trains where I can.  Almost every train station I go to has nearby parking. If  our hub plan includes inter city trains we will need convenient parking.  Heaven forbid, some people who use the system will also use cars...GASP.  Those ignoramuses.

----------


## Urban Pioneer

Lol

----------


## Just the facts

> I think that some on here would love to ban all automobiles and force everyone to look at the world in their own myopic sense. Nothing that can be said will change their mind. So be it.  LOL
> 
> I travel extensively and use trains where I can.  Almost every train station I go to has nearby parking. If  our hub plan includes inter city trains we will need convenient parking.  Heaven forbid, some people who use the system will also use cars...GASP.  Those ignoramuses.


Rover - you are free to use your car as much as you want, but why should tax dollars to build a place for you to park it take priority over other transportation options?

----------


## betts

I'm going to agree with Rover on this one.  While I'm already carless when I'm doing things downtown, people are going to be driving downtown for quite a while - like indefinitely.  When we're in NYC, my relatives from Connecticut drive down.  There are plenty of cars in Manhattan, if quite a few less per capita than here, and the same holds true for Chicago and San Francisco.  I like the idea that, if we're going to be building parking with my tax dollars anyway, we build the planned parking garage for the hub.  It helps set the concept of the hub as the transit center for downtown, and it's close enough to everything downtown that people can easily walk from it, as well as being close to Bricktown and Deep Deuce, which is soon going to have more restaurants than Automobile Alley.

----------


## Rover

> Rover - you are free to use your car as much as you want, but why should tax dollars to build a place for you to park it take priority over other transportation options?


Why do we need the rest of our organs?  Get rid of the heart and the lungs.  All we need is our head, right?

I think credibility is lost if anyone is suggesting that OKC will be a public transit only, or even public transit predominant city anytime in the next 100 years..even in the core.  It isn't that way anywhere in the world and never will be.  This insistence that the only reasonable options are on the extreme is just fantasy.  Thank goodness the people in control are more balanced, pragmatic and realistic.  Moving to a better city design will take decades, but it will never eliminate the things that get certain people frothing.

----------


## OSUMom

> Rover - you are free to use your car as much as you want, but why should tax dollars to build a place for you to park it take priority over other transportation options?



Just to remind you that most of this discussion started in the Sandridge thread when it was reported that the city sold Sandridge one of it's monthly parking garages.  It's not like we want a ton more garages over better public transporation options but how about atleast replacing the parking spaces they just sold off to a few private companies?

----------


## Just the facts

We seem to be getting a little off track.  I am not saying that parking garages shouldn't be built downtown.  All I am saying is that building a parking garage at a central hub will divert commuter rail passengers back into their cars.  It is a multi-modal hub, not a park and ride lot for local transit.  The intent is to pick up passengers in Norman, Midwest City, Edmond, and a few other places and have them ride rail into downtown.  Once downtown they then transfer to streetcars, taxis, pedicabs, walking, inner-city rail, HSR, and city bus.  If you live in Edmond and your destination is Midtown why would you drive all the way from Edmond to park in a garage at the central hub, then transfer to local transit when you could just park in Midtown.  Then if you want to go to another part of downtown you would ride local transit.  If they build a parking garage at the hub who would ride commuter rail?

How many people who go to Penn Sq Mall drive to 63rd and Penn and hop on the #8 bus for the final half mile?  Answer, no one.  They park at the mall.

----------


## Urban Pioneer

> Why do we need the rest of our organs?  Get rid of the heart and the lungs.  All we need is our head, right?
> 
> I think credibility is lost if anyone is suggesting that OKC will be a public transit only, or even public transit predominant city anytime in the next 100 years..even in the core.



While I agree that car dominance will persist in OKC due to the sprawl, I do think that the core could/will easily become a place where people could live without a car.  In fact, I think that the historical central city will evolve into a place with good transit and enable the ability to be independent of a car by choice within our lifetime.  The suburbs will undeniably be either a "Park n' Ride" or a "Bike n' Ride" if modern history in other cities is any guide.

I think that OKC will become even more competitive with other cities by developing choice.  Choice to live only by car, partly by car, or entirely without a car easily within the next twenty years depending on your proximity to the core.  And that really can't be a bad thing economically or culturally speaking.

But back on topic, let's be real.  Downtown real estate is too valuable to spend on low density surface parking lots or badly designed garages for the sake of people making 5 minute trips or front door access.  Use the new streetcar to distribute the parking load with new future garages appropriately sized and reasonably spaced.  For that matter, it will enable distribution to a great many more under-utilized streets spaces as well.

----------


## Just the facts

Found this interesting new feature on Zillow.  They have compiled a walk score for every house in America.  Each point on the score translates to $3,000 in property value.  Sadly, they used "as the crow fly" distances in their calculation.  I can't drive my car "as the crow flys".

http://www.walkscore.com/how-it-works.shtml

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## Rover

That is cool.  Interestingly, the highest walkability I found was at NW Expressway and May area.  63rd and Western was high too.  Downtown was good but it counts Sage Market as a downtown grocery.  Don't think they are even in business.

Doesn't seem to take into account sidewalks, ramps, traffic danger, etc.  Uses a pretty simplistic algorithm apparently.  It is about as accurate as its estimated home pricing.

----------


## Larry OKC

> ...The intent is to pick up passengers in Norman, Midwest City, Edmond, and a few other places and have them ride rail into downtown.  ...If they build a parking garage at the hub who would ride commuter rail?...


And how does have a parking garage next to the Hub change that? Folks commuting FROM Norman et al are not going to be using it BUT those that are here in the Metro that don't have convenient access may just drive to the Hub and continue on to Norman et al from there. Same as those that park at the Amtrack station now and ride the Heartland Flyer to points south. Those that are at points south visiting OKC aren't going to be using the parking garage. This IS a Intermodal Transit Hub, I would presume that that could also include cars????

----------


## Just the facts

How are you going to get around in Norman and Edmond when you get there without a car?

----------


## MDot

> How are you going to get around in Norman and Edmond when you get there without a car?


Walk. Lol

----------


## Just the facts

> Walk. Lol


lol -so you drive your car to the downtown hub, pay to park, ride the train to Norman, and walk to OU.  That makes a lot of sense.  :Smile:

----------


## MDot

> lol -so you drive your car to the downtown hub, pay to park, ride the train to Norman, and walk to OU.  That makes a lot of sense.


Lol I would, but I also don't have that typical Oklahoma attitude where I have to drive my car to the front door of my destination.

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## MDot

I'm not sure why I got started in on this thread cause it doesn't matter to me either way how I get where I'm going as long as I get there.

My "walk" comment was just made for a smart ellic response that nobody else had put on here. Just laugh at JTF and not take it so personally. ;-) lol

----------


## Just the facts

> I'm not sure why I got started in on this thread cause it doesn't matter to me either way how I get where I'm going as long as I get there.
> 
> My "walk" comment was just made for a smart ellic response that nobody else had put on here. Just laugh at JTF and not take it so personally. ;-) lol


To be honest, it doesn't matter anyhow.  A parking garage is not going to be part of the downtown hub for at least 20 years.

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## MDot

> To be honest, it doesn't matter anyhow.  A parking garage is not going to be part of the downtown hub for at least 20 years.


So we're on the same page for now.  :Smiley199:

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## Just the facts

> So we're on the same page for now.


We can talk about it again in 18 years.  I put an entry in my Outlook calendar.

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## MDot

> We can talk about it again in 18 years.  I put an entry in my Outlook calendar.


And I need to do the same.

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## Spartan

> Why do we need the rest of our organs?  Get rid of the heart and the lungs.  All we need is our head, right?
> 
> I think credibility is lost if anyone is suggesting that OKC will be a public transit only, or even public transit predominant city anytime in the next 100 years..even in the core.  It isn't that way anywhere in the world and never will be


I don't know what you mean, because I know a lot of cities where public transit is predominant.

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## Rover

> I don't know what you mean, because I know a lot of cities where public transit is predominant.


Just curious what cities in the US are predomantly public transit?  Don't know the numbers, but NYC would seem to be the only possible candidate, and only if you consider only Manhattan.  I still don't think OKC will be like Manhattan even in 100 years.

----------


## MDot

> Just curious what cities in the US are predomantly public transit?  Don't know the numbers, but NYC would seem to be the only possible candidate, and only if you consider only Manhattan.  I still don't think OKC will be like Manhattan even in 100 years.


I hope not. :-)

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## Larry OKC

> How are you going to get around in Norman and Edmond when you get there without a car?


The same way you do now? How do folks get round after taking the _Heartland_ to Ft. Worth? How do you get around when you come into any airport or train station? Sounds like you are saying they shouldn't even bother unless someone lives right next door to whatever mass transit exists and it goes directly to their destination??? Don't bother coming to the OKC airport unless you only want to eat at Sonic & the airport version of POPS???

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## Just the facts

> The same way you do now? How do folks get round after taking the _Heartland_ to Ft. Worth? How do you get around when you come into any airport or train station?


It doesn't matter, a parking garage is not part of the hub for 20 years.

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## semisimple

> Just curious what cities in the US are predomantly public transit?  Don't know the numbers, but NYC would seem to be the only possible candidate, and only if you consider only Manhattan.  I still don't think OKC will be like Manhattan even in 100 years.


Only NYC.  The four big boroughs all are predominately public transit:

Manhattan: 58% use transit, 21% walk, 9% drive (or carpool)
Brooklyn: 60% use transit, 9% walk, 25% drive
Bronx: 57% use transit, 7% walk, 31% drive
Queens: 51% use transit, 6% walk, 40% drive

Less than half of commuters drive in SF, Boston, and DC. 

SF: 32% use transit, 10% walk, 47% drive
Boston: 33% use transit, 14% walk, 48% drive
DC: 37% use transit, 11% walk, 44% drive

Chicago and Philadelphia are next with about 26% using public transit in each.

In OKC 94% drive, 0.8% use transit, and 1.4% walk to work.

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## Rover

I have read a recent world study indicating that car use grows until commuting is around one hour each way, at which time driving peaks, and even starts to decline.  Such is the case with many congested cities.  That means jobs need to keep moving from the outside to the inner core and they need to be desirable jobs.

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## semisimple

> I have read a recent world study indicating that car use grows until commuting is around one hour each way, at which time driving peaks, and even starts to decline.  Such is the case with many congested cities.  That means jobs need to keep moving from the outside to the inner core and they need to be desirable jobs.



Interesting point.  Since OKC has almost no real traffic congestion, commute times are very short (right at 20 min each way, below national average).  Also because the city is so sparsely populated, driving is the only feasible mode of transportation.  Out of 74 U.S. cities with a population over 250,000, OKC ties with Wichita and Ft. Wayne, IN, for second-to-last place for amount of commuters using public transit.  Arlington, TX, has the lowest amount of public transportation use per capita (0.1%).

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## Urban Pioneer

And that is why we can't justify trying to give everyone Class A bus or rail service.  It needs to be available in higher density urban zones of the city.

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## king183

> Only NYC.  The four big boroughs all are predominately public transit:
> 
> Manhattan: 58% use transit, 21% walk, 9% drive (or carpool)
> Brooklyn: 60% use transit, 9% walk, 25% drive
> Bronx: 57% use transit, 7% walk, 31% drive
> Queens: 51% use transit, 6% walk, 40% drive
> 
> Less than half of commuters drive in SF, Boston, and DC. 
> 
> ...


Where did you get these figures?  This is good data.

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## SkyWestOKC

95.48% commute? Doesn't make sense? Percentages need to add up to 100% or you have data missing or is flawed. 

Not doubting the numbers, but what data is missing?

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## Just the facts

> 95.48% commute? Doesn't make sense? Percentages need to add up to 100% or you have data missing or is flawed. 
> 
> Not doubting the numbers, but what data is missing?


This:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Island_Tramway

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## king183

> 95.48% commute? Doesn't make sense? Percentages need to add up to 100% or you have data missing or is flawed. 
> 
> Not doubting the numbers, but what data is missing?


Not everyone commutes. There are lots of people who either work from home, are homemakers, are unable to commute due to physical disabilities, are in prison, etc.

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## SkyWestOKC

Do they ever use transportation? They need to add a category to make the numbers add to 100%.

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## BDP

I'd be more skeptical of data that did add up exactly to 100%. There is always extreme outliers.

You've got bikes, segways, wheelchairs, rickshaws, roller blades, skateboards, and probably some other crazy stuff that could qualify as "other" on the survey.

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## semisimple

> 95.48% commute? Doesn't make sense? Percentages need to add up to 100% or you have data missing or is flawed. 
> 
> Not doubting the numbers, but what data is missing?


The numbers I provided add to 96.2%.  :Smile:  

In any case, I didn't report the numbers for people that work at home or use other means of transportation.  I also rounded up for the total figure for the % of commuters driving in some form.

I believe the numbers are from the American Community Survey conducted by the US Census Bureau.  You should be able to access the data from their website here: http://www.census.gov/acs/www/ 

This is the full breakdown I have for OKC proper:

81.1% drive alone to work
12.4% carpool
0.8% use public transit
1.4% walk
1.3% use other means of transportation
3.0% work at home

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## Rover

They travel in cars...they just happen to be taxis. They take the train in to avoid the traffic jams coming into the city.

And to compare NYC in any way is pretty silly.  OKC will not look this way in 100 years.  We need to make realistic plans and encourage good behavior and design.  But we cannot think we are or ever will be NYC.

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## Just the facts

Rover - why do you keep equating the use of mass transit with tall buildings?  You can be walkable/mass transit city without 10 miles of skycrapers.  You have to look outside America to find them but there are plenty of examples.

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## Rover

I am solidly for promoting mass trans.  But this idea that we are going to be NYC, or some Euro city is a pipe dream.  Part of making things happen is to be realistic rather than trying to sell a bill of goods that will never be achieved. It is great to have dreams, but important to not be hallucinating.

And, oddly enough, mass trans usually is used most in cities with high density.  And high density cities usually have more and taller buildings.  Imagine that.

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## Just the facts

When you say we are not going to be like NYC, what aspect of NYC do you think we are trying to emulate?

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## bombermwc

I think what Rover is trying to say is that OKC, by its very nature, is not (and probably never will be) urban to that degree. The density required to make mass transit work doesn't exist here, and would be hard pressed TO exist here. OKC is a car-created city and continues to expand with that in mind. 

Think about how long it took Dallas and Houston to create a mass transit system that actually worked, and they've both been much larger cities than OKC for a much longer time. Even thinking we're in the same part of the planet as NYC or even most smaller Euro cities isn't correct. Europe is dense by the fact of how long it has had to develop. OKC is just a kid in diapers compared to most euro cities...we just grew into our pants really fast.

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## Just the facts

> I think what Rover is trying to say is that OKC, by its very nature, is not (and probably never will be) urban to that degree. The density required to make mass transit work doesn't exist here, and would be hard pressed TO exist here. OKC is a car-created city and continues to expand with that in mind. 
> 
> Think about how long it took Dallas and Houston to create a mass transit system that actually worked, and they've both been much larger cities than OKC for a much longer time. Even thinking we're in the same part of the planet as NYC or even most smaller Euro cities isn't correct. Europe is dense by the fact of how long it has had to develop. OKC is just a kid in diapers compared to most euro cities...we just grew into our pants really fast.


Okay, first of all I don't know anyone on the pro-mass transit side that has ever said OKC could be, should be, or would even want to be as urban as NYC.  NYC is at the far end of the urban scale and is not the threshold where walkability and mass transit become viable.  Somewhere between the densities of OKC and NYC is where that point is crossed and many of us think that OKC is closer to that point than NYC is.  As UP pointed out earlier, the low density nature of OKC's post WWII suburban sprawl does not lend itself to mass transit, but the urban core of OKC absolutely does because it already existed there once.  The urban core of OKC once boasted something like 70 miles of streetcars and nearly every sizable town in Oklahoma was connected to OKC via the interuran system.  So you can't tell me it isn't possible because it has already been done once.  You might as well say it is impossible to go to the moon.

In the next 20 years it will be possible to live within the urban core of OKC and not need to own a car.  You might need to rent one if you want to drive out of town, but you won't need to own one as part of your daily life.

This 'historical' photo is courtesy of Doug Lodenback's blog site

http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2007/09...ys-part-1.html


A little side fact - the main terminal on that map was located where the new Devon Tower is being built.

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## Rover

I think there are several scenarios of mass trans that work here in OKC.  The trick is to create a good cost/benefit.  It will not be beneficial to start and will be a publicly supported system that most OKC citizens will pay for for the benefit of a few with the hope of someday being self supporting.  For that to happen though, OKC will have to become much more dense than it is now or will be for quite awhile.  And that is okay.  It has to start somewhere.

In Europe there are many barriers to driving which don't exist here...at least YET.  First, most of the old cities in the old core sections have narrow streets built before cars...WAY before cars.  The buildings being close to the streets keep the streets from widening.  Second, gas is much more expensive than in the US, discouraging needless driving and large cars are not for common people.  Third, the population grew up with streetcars, trains, etc. as a normal way of life.  In the US, often there is still a stigma that if you can't afford your own car you ride the bus.  

But, since this is a thread on downtown parking, we digress.  Our mass trans will not for the next two or three decades serve a large enough population to start lowering our requirement for more parking, provided the business side of downtown keeps growing.  It is necessary for there to be MUCH more employment downtown, which of course means more commuters and more parking.  AFTER the commuters come, many will prefer to convert to core dwellers or to locate close to commuting lines.  It is a progression that will take years and years.  But make no mistake, there has to be dramatic growth of employment downtown to fuel this.  Otherwise, our mass trans will be like the little train that used to run on the teeny tracks around the zoo...good for entertainment but not a sustainable transportation option.  Regardless, parking options will be necessary.

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## Just the facts

At the risk of the mods moving the last 10 posts to one of the other transit threads, many of us believe that implementing a quality mass transit system in the urban core will produce the needed density to make it successful.

It is basically a loss leader, but then again, so are all investments.  Just like building freeways and giant parking lots enticed people in large numbers out to the suburbs, quality mass transit and walkability will entice large numbers of people back to the urban core.

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## Rover

You are right, highways and parking lots were built so people could be coerced to like living in safe peaceful neighborhoods and liked the freedom of driving their own car.  People don't want peace, quiet, freedom, safety, etc.  They only tolerate that stuff because the government forced it that way.

It must be really frustrating to the cool smart people that some classless dummies actually prefer living in a single family residence with a yard.  As soon as everyone wises up I am sure we will all ride buses and live downtown.  

Mass trans, IF done properly, will indeed enable many people to live a life the way they want or the way they have to.  But, the price of gas and the efficiency of automobiles will have a much bigger and quicker effect on people using mass trans.  

Back to topic PLEASE.

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## shane453

> In Europe there are many barriers to driving which don't exist here...at least YET.


Wouldn't a limitation on parking be a barrier to driving, just like gas prices and narrow streets in Europe? We continually remove this barrier by building new parking in downtown. There is definitely a double standard when it comes to parking vs transit, which are basically alternative goods in this case. For example, when downtown parking is at capacity, we have a choice to make about how we spend our money. Here are a few of the alternatives:

1- We can build a parking garage (to my knowledge the only alternative that has been attempted so far)
2- We can conduct a public information campaign directed at downtown parkers who live on existing bus routes, teaching them how the bus could potentially make their commute less stressful and cheaper. This could include print materials and personal consultations with route planners. It could also include working with companies to provide transit passes for free to their employees. Because of the nature of our bus routes (downtown-centered, highest frequency at rush hour) downtown employees are the best possible candidates for switching to transit- and if they knew it was an option, they could do it tomorrow.
3- We can invest in safe bike boulevards with careful navigational assistance extended to near-downtown areas where downtown employees are likely to live, along with a public information campaign about those safe routes and benefits of cycling. Secure cycle parking also provided- we can fit a lot more cycles than cars in a given space. Again, this campaign could include print materials and personal consultations with people who could help select the correct type/size of bike and a safe route. Companies may also be interested in sponsoring this for employees- think about the emphasis our major corporations are placing on employee health and wellness.

The first alternative allows an increase in the total number of cars coming downtown each day, until the new garage is filled and we begin at square one.

The second and third alternatives will allow the number of cars coming downtown to stabilize (or at least slow the growth of parking demand).

I don't think an additional garage is a horrible idea at all. But when we build a garage, we are making a choice. If we spent an equal amount of money on targeted, personal campaigns to help people learn how to change their transportation mode when accessing downtown, we could avoid being back in the same position in a few years as employment continues to grow downtown. At this point, attempting all three alternatives would be pretty great.

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## Rover

You could also discourage any company from moving downtown if there are insufficient parking opportunities.  You all forget that there have to be jobs downtown for all this density you wish.  To think that all the employees of a company want to live downtown is just ignorance.  To limit the pool of potential employees to those living on a bus route or even a streetcar route is just as ill advised.  Part of what is attractive to a company is the ability to recruit the best talent and the more you limit them the less likely they are to consider downtown.  Why do you think Devon invested in building so many parking spaces?  But not all companies are going to be able to build their own, so a public need arises.  And, if you restrict the retailers to only those who can reach them by mass trans, than you eliminate a huge part of their market potential.

A balanced approach is needed and investment in parking garages is one.  If the city builds some in strategic locations then surface lots become far less attractive economically.  For the same price, most people would rather park in a garage protected from the weather and somewhat protected.  There is only so much income one can generate from surface lots and once the land is more valuable for some other kind of development we will see the surface lots go away because the can't compete.  Black markets exist when other markets don't fill the need.  Without the adequate parking facilities of a city, the black market is the surface lots...undesirable, but filling a demand.

I would be curious as to what percentage of downtown residents now own cars?  In Oklahoma, I believe it will be a long time before even the diehard core dwellers abandoned their cars.  And if there are cars there has to be parking.

By the way, some of the worst traffic situations in the world I have encountered are in European and other world cities where there is inadequate parking and cars are parked in locations making it hard to walk or drive....places like Athens comes to mind.  I can list the many ways the government has attempted to create ways to discourage car use in the city and has failed.  In fact, some of their efforts created worse driving and air quality issues.

----------


## betts

My husband and I each have a car.  It's not gaining mileage very quickly, but he works up in far northwest OKC, so he drives to work every day.  Once we're home, we pretty much eschew cars unless it's bitterly cold or raining too hard for an umbrella.  All my neighbors have two cars as well, although some walk to work.  Judging by the cars on the street in Deep Deuce, there aren't a lot of carless people out there.  We did have a waitress at Louies or McNellies one night who said she and her husband were not car owners, but she said it was hard because of our poor public transit.  

I agree with Rover.  Without encouraging car use downtown, we need to make allowances for people who work or want to travel downtown, especially now when we have no easy public transit around downtown.  Parking garages also encourage density......of cars, which is not a bad thing.

----------


## CaptDave

I am one of those people who would live in the suburbs for the schools - and the other things for kids that are not presently available in OKC's CBD - BUT would love to drive to a suburban commuter rail station and ride from Edmond (hold your collective gasps) to OKC, Norman, or even the 63rd St area. We are all that different from Salt Lake City and Albuquerque and both places have built commuter rail sstems that are very successful.

----------


## shane453

> You could also discourage any company from moving downtown if there are insufficient parking opportunities.  You all forget that there have to be jobs downtown for all this density you wish.  To think that all the employees of a company want to live downtown is just ignorance.  To limit the pool of potential employees to those living on a bus route or even a streetcar route is just as ill advised.


If you read my whole post, I totally agree. We need parking downtown, and lots of it, because the car is an essential part of life in 99% of our city. The potential new garage is definitely warranted for the very reasons you describe. I'm not saying limit employment so that everyone has to live on a bus route and no one drives downtown- That was apparently your interpretation. All I'm saying is that there are thousands of existing parking spaces being used by people who already live on bus/bike routes who are not aware that they might be able to easily bike/bus to the office. So by trying some alternative strategies and getting those people to consider leaving their car at home from 9-5, we could replenish some parking supply without building.

While building the new garage is a good short-term strategy, we need a complementary long-term strategy to slow the growth in demand for parking so we aren't in the same position every five years. Surely you can see the logic of that perspective?

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## Rover

I understand what you are saying, but I would hope we are growing employment rapidly downtown and require parking garages to be built.  But I agree that hopefully it isn't a 1 for 1 growth.  We would hope that for every 1000 jobs created downtown we might only need parking for 750 people.  Slowly but surely we can build up the permanent core density.

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## bluedogok

> I am one of those people who would live in the suburbs for the schools - and the other things for kids that are not presently available in OKC's CBD - BUT would love to drive to a suburban commuter rail station and ride from Edmond (hold your collective gasps) to OKC, Norman, or even the 63rd St area. We are all that different from Salt Lake City and Albuquerque and both places have built commuter rail sstems that are very successful.


I am going to start doing that next month taking the light rail from Aurora to my new office in LoDo a few blocks from Union Station. I am staying in a friends condo until he gets back from the South Pole in February and we are planning on looking for a rental in Aurora in January for the time being because the light rail is already there now. Right now the light rail is being expanded into other parts of Denver, after we get the house sold here in Austin and my wife moves up there we may look in a different part of Denver depending upon where she gets a job but we are planning that location around light rail park-n-ride stations. At my friends place he is 1.5 miles from Nine Mile Station in Aurora, so I will have a short drive. I would prefer a place closer but that will more than likely be a place we buy rather than rent so sometime in the next few years.

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## Just the facts

> At my friends place he is 1.5 miles from Nine Mile Station in Aurora, so I will have a short drive.


You are going to drive a 1.5 miles?  You can walk it in 17 minutes, and that is if you take your time.  Ride a bike and you can be there faster than you can drive and park.

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## OSUMom

I've always thought that it would nice to live close to DT to walk to work on nice days, but it would sure be nice for those people who do that to have the option to catch a bus for the 4 or 5 blocks when it is raining or really cold.

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## ljbab728

> You are going to drive a 1.5 miles?  You can walk it in 17 minutes, and that is if you take your time.  Ride a bike and you can be there faster than you can drive and park.


Sounds nice, Kerry, but not always practical.  Remember he is talking about Denver weather, not Jacksonville weather.  And if I had to ride a bike or walk 1 1/2 miles each day before I went to work, I would need another shower and change of clothes after I got there no matter what the weather was.  LOL

----------


## Just the facts

> Sounds nice, Kerry, but not always practical.  Remember he is talking about Denver weather, not Jacksonville weather.  And if I had to ride a bike or walk 1 1/2 miles each day before I went to work, I would need another shower and change of clothes after I got there no matter what the weather was.  LOL


Obviously there are times when walking would be inconvenient but driving to the 'park and ride' train station should be the last option.  When I first started riding the bike a few months ago I would be pretty hot and sweaty after just a mile or so - not to mention tired.  I now ride the bike as much as I can for daily errands and even after a 6 mile ride (to chick-fil-a of all places) I am neither tired nor sweaty.  The Human body will adjust quickly and losing 25 pounds has made the riding even easier.

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## Rover

Walking  a mile or two isn't practical or desirable for everybody and certainly not in the extreme weather we see here in OKC. And, those in their 50's and 60s are less likely to go work out to fit the ideal than someone younger. In more metropolitan and dense environments they usually either have good consistent bus, taxi and/or subway lines so people don't actually have to walk that far.

----------


## bluedogok

If I was wearing casual clothes and not carrying a larger laptop, then I would probably walk some, it definitely is better weather than six months of Austin summer to walk in. That area (I-225 & Parker Road) is not as pedestrian friendly as many other areas, it is a "Park-N-Ride" after all and not a TOD. Also my mailbox is about a half mile from there and I will swing by there on the way home and do other errands at that time. Better than the 40 mile daily commute across Downtown Austin that I have had the past 4 years. There is a large park and school a block away from the condo, I will go over to the track there and get my walking in (I try to average 3-4 miles 4 or 5 days a week) when I am dressed for it instead of slacks and dress shoes. They "dress up" a bit more there than they do here in Austin where jeans and a knit was my normal work day clothing...of course they don't have 90 days over 100 degree summers up there either.

As for the weather, they are expecting a half a foot of snow today, of course it was in the 80's when we were up there Sunday and Monday and will be gone by the time I get back up there on Sunday.




> Sounds nice, Kerry, but not always practical.  Remember he is talking about Denver weather, not Jacksonville weather.  And if I had to ride a bike or walk 1 1/2 miles each day before I went to work, I would need another shower and change of clothes after I got there no matter what the weather was.  LOL


Kind of the same for me, I am very hot natured and can work up a good sweat in 40 degree weather by just walking a good distance. I always have been even when I was in much better shape and was working outside, it has to do with thyroid issues that I have had since I was diagnosed with those at six years old. That is why the summers down here have just been miserable and getting out of the car even with A/C going full blast the back of my shirts are soaked is not exactly what I like when wearing a dress shirt and slacks. The Play-Dry type of knit shirts were great down here and what I wore most of the time.

----------


## Just the facts

Anyone can ride a bike in a suit.





unless your...

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## bluedogok

> Anyone can ride a bike in a suit.


...but I don't care to do that.

My bicycle is here in Austin right now and hasn't been on the road for 10 years, it is a Cannondale road bike and I have thought of making it into a crossover type of bike but just haven't got around to it, not that I would ride it for commuting to work either. The motorcycle is up there now and my friend commutes on his most of the time (77,000 miles on it) but his job is in the DTC and not downtown. I am a "car guy", I like my cars and plan to add a pickup and a race car to my garage in the future but just feel that taking the light rail to work would be better than putting the miles on my car. I bought my 2003 BMW Z4 Roadster in 2009 with 45,000 miles on it, I already have 87,000 miles on it now and driving 40 miles a day really racked up the miles, I am looking to keep the miles off that and a 3-4 mile a day commute will help that. For me commuting on a bicycle is a non-starter completely. If you had to commute on it everyday for work in Jax instead of just running errands on it you might have a different opinion but I had co-workers here who did, especially in our old office building which did have showers, when we moved to The Domain they commuted on their bikes less because we didn't have the same facilities. My opinion is that if it works for someone that is great, it just isn't the thing for me.

In a year if we buy a place closer to downtown, I may revisit how I commute but for now I will drive or commute by rail depending upon if I need a car or not that day.

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## Just the facts

I had a friend in Atlanta that put one of those little electric motors on his bike.  The first day he tried it he wrecked and came to work bloody.  The second day his battery died half-way to work - and again half way home.  On the third day he put the electric motor for sale on E-bay.

Granted, biking is not for everyone.  I can kick myself for not trying biking earlier myself.  For 2 years I worked 1.5 miles from the house and not once did I ride the bike.  I used the same reasoning you did - I didn't want to sweat, what if it rained, it's too windy, I like my car, it's too humid, etc...

Now I put my bike (or rip-stick) in the back of the pickup and when I go to sprawling shopping centers I ride from store to store and to neighboring shopping centers.  I am now a park-once person as much as I can be.  I have a lockable basket/trailer on my Christmas Wish List.

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## Pete

Nice article today from Steve about the city getting involved in future parking structures.

With the impending sale of the Broadway/Kerr garage to Sandridge and the Century Center structure also being sold, that only leaves three city-owned parking structures.

My opinion is that it's time to build a could more and it's far easier for the city to do that than private developers, as they have all kinds of staff, expertise and even the right to use eminent domain to make these things happen.

Seems like the downtown garages are almost full and if we want to continue to attract new business, they've got to have their employees park somewhere.

http://newsok.com/could-changes-be-i...stom_click=rss

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## Lauri101

A lot of us who pay for parking on our own dime are getting concerned about finding safe and relatively close parking.  The people who run the Century Center garage still swear nothing is happening - Steve - do you have additional information?  COTPA pulled this crap on us last time when we were booted from the West City Center - no information up front.  
[rant on]GSA insists that federal employees need a downtown presence, but no provisions are made for parking or park and ride.[/rant]   (Ok, I'll quit griping now and hope I can make it to January 2013 retirement!)

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## OSUMom

So far Sandridge hasn't kicked anyone out of the Broadway Kerr garage.  In fact I got a nice surprise this week to see that they re-painted the parking spots along the inner walls and made them bigger.  Thank God!  Sandridge is now my favorite company.  Until they decide to give us lowly non-Sandridge employees the boot that is.

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## OKCNDN

> Nice article today from Steve about the city getting involved in future parking structures.
> 
> With the impending sale of the Broadway/Kerr garage to Sandridge and the Century Center structure also being sold, that only leaves three city-owned parking structures.
> 
> My opinion is that it's time to build a could more and it's far easier for the city to do that than private developers, as they have all kinds of staff, expertise and even the right to use eminent domain to make these things happen.
> 
> Seems like the downtown garages are almost full and if we want to continue to attract new business, they've got to have their employees park somewhere.
> 
> http://newsok.com/could-changes-be-i...stom_click=rss


The city should have some spaces so that a new business could come into downtown and there will be available parking.  There should not just be enough parking...there should be more than enough.

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## Steve

> A lot of us who pay for parking on our own dime are getting concerned about finding safe and relatively close parking.  The people who run the Century Center garage still swear nothing is happening - Steve - do you have additional information?  COTPA pulled this crap on us last time when we were booted from the West City Center - no information up front.  
> [rant on]GSA insists that federal employees need a downtown presence, but no provisions are made for parking or park and ride.[/rant]   (Ok, I'll quit griping now and hope I can make it to January 2013 retirement!)


I don't believe the deal being contemplated would necessarily spell the end of you parking at the garage. At the very least I suspect either way you'll make it just fine through your retirement. I will also add things are about to get better, not worse for you and others like you.

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## Lauri101

> I don't believe the deal being contemplated would necessarily spell the end of you parking at the garage. At the very least I suspect either way you'll make it just fine through your retirement. I will also add things are about to get better, not worse for you and others like you.


Steve - thanks for the ray of hope - I needed that!  This construction is getting everyone down.  Just stepping over the sleeping homeless people to get into the office is an adventure.

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## metro

Construction isn't getting me down, it's getting me more excited. I also don't think there is a parking problem downtown.

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## dmoor82

^^agreed,I live downtown and NEVER have a problem finding a parking space,sometimes that space may be 1 or maybe even 2 blocks away from where I need to be but thats why I have these two things that have feet that are attached to my body!

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## Steve

Keep in mind as I say this that I was warning about this pain early on. So keep the faith... we're more than halfway there. I expect the worst of the pain will be done by the end of 2012.

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## OSUMom

> Keep in mind as I say this that I was warning about this pain early on. So keep the faith... we're more than halfway there. I expect the worst of the pain will be done by the end of 2012.


I have to say, sometimes I wonder if a day will come that I will get off work and discover that there is no way out of downtown.  : )

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## mcca7596

http://newsok.com/new-oklahoma-city-...rticle/3631819

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-has-...rticle/3631798

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## Lauri101

> I have to say, sometimes I wonder if a day will come that I will get off work and discover that there is no way out of downtown.  : )


LOL @ OSUMom - I have that same fear!

And for those of you with two feet that can walk - congrats.  Before my RA set in, I did also.  When it's cold/wet, I hurt more.  I rarely complain about it, but it just irritates the crap out of me when people judge others who are less abled than they are.  

 There is no accessible parking for handicapped employees or visitors to our building. I've seen an elderly man pushing his little wife in a wheelchair over rocks and bumpy asphalt in order to bring a box of tax records in to get assistance.  We do not meet ADA or any other standards of accessibility right now - probably true of most buildings in CBD.

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## dmoor82

^^Lauri,I should have pointed out that if you are able,then it is easy to get around downtown.My Mother has Lupus and when She visits me downtown sometimes She has trouble parking close.I wasnt trying to be insensitive,and its a shame that the disabled get overlooked so much!

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## Just the facts

Hopefully changes that are part of project 180 will make it easier for everyone to get around downtown.

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## Lauri101

> ^^Lauri,I should have pointed out that if you are able,then it is easy to get around downtown.My Mother has Lupus and when She visits me downtown sometimes She has trouble parking close.I wasnt trying to be insensitive,and its a shame that the disabled get overlooked so much!


Sorry dmoor - I'm a bit sensitive - I used to be able to walk the entire tunnel at lunch every day.  Until you're facing it or have a loved one who does, you don't know what it's like to be unable to get over a curb or leap a puddle.   

There simply is no good reason for our agency to be located downtown - it's harder on the employees and especially difficult on the poor taxpayers where insult is added to injury by not only coming in for an audit, but also having to lug boxes of records for several block.  That is, however, a rant for a different thread someday.

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## Spartan

I think there is something to be said for the point that, generally speaking of course, urbanism is a significantly healthier environment.

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## bluedogok

> There is no accessible parking for handicapped employees or visitors to our building. I've seen an elderly man pushing his little wife in a wheelchair over rocks and bumpy asphalt in order to bring a box of tax records in to get assistance.  We do not meet ADA or any other standards of accessibility right now - probably true of most buildings in CBD.


The ADA has been in effect for 20 years now, there is no legitimate reason why a commercial building cannot meet ADA at this point. There has been more than enough time to spread the costs out over that period of time. I guess a DOJ lawsuit is the only think that will motivate some building owners.

I do agree that most agencies who deal with the general public should be better located away from pay lots and long walks. I think the Social Security office being located at Shepherd Mall is one of the better locations, it is somewhat centrally located near downtown, on a bus line and has plenty of free, accessible parking.

----------


## Just the facts

> The ADA has been in effect for 20 years now, there is no legitimate reason why a commercial building cannot meet ADA at this point. There has been more than enough time to spread the costs out over that period of time. I guess a DOJ lawsuit is the only think that will motivate some building owners.
> 
> I do agree that most agencies who deal with the general public should be better located away from pay lots and long walks. I think the Social Security office being located at Shepherd Mall is one of the better locations, it is somewhat centrally located near downtown, on a bus line and has plenty of free, accessible parking.


I think she works in a government building which is exempted from ADA laws.

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## Reno and Walker

Wow, I was in the paper today!!! I guess they want to put a garage on my property and put another business out after 40 years..

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## Steve

Not necessarily. I'll be at Peacock for lunch tomorrow. Long story short - of all the POSSIBLE sites, most folks I talk to say your corner is the least likely to be chosen.

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## Reno and Walker

> Not necessarily. I'll be at Peacock for lunch tomorrow. Long story short - of all the POSSIBLE sites, most folks I talk to say your corner is the least likely to be chosen.



Hopefully I will catch you tomorrow..  I will be in and out!!!

I have a couple questions I need to ask and maybe get verified..

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## rcjunkie

> I think she works in a government building which is exempted from ADA laws.


Government buildings are NOT exempt.

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## Lauri101

> Government buildings are NOT exempt.


Strangely enough, there are some regulations in place that make a government-*owned* building exempt - but our building is *leased* space and has private business as well as three government agencies.   The building owners blame the city or anyone else they can find.  
Bottom line - handicapped employees and visitors to the building have to park two blocks away.  If you are in a wheelchair or use a walker, you would have to have some major assistance to navigate from the parking to the building.  
Walk the streets of the CBD now and imagine yourself in a wheelchair as you do.  I'd love to see someone with the stones and the bread take on the cause.

----------


## Just the facts

> Government buildings are NOT exempt.


Yes they are.  They fall into an exclusion group classified as "under other regulations".  I know this because I read it right before I made the post to be sure it was accurate.  Even some leased buildings are exempt

----------


## Steve

> Hopefully I will catch you tomorrow..  I will be in and out!!!
> 
> I have a couple questions I need to ask and maybe get verified..


I'll be there at noon.

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## Urban Pioneer

> Not necessarily. I'll be at Peacock for lunch tomorrow. Long story short - of all the POSSIBLE sites, most folks I talk to say your corner is the least likely to be chosen.


Is there a map of these sites and what do you think the top 3 or 4 are?

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## Skyline

> Is there a map of these sites and what do you think the top 3 or 4 are?


This reminds me of the CC site selection process. 

Remember what happened to those top 3 or 4 sites? haha

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## Urban Pioneer

I just hope wherever we o this we actually "wrap" the thing with something useful at ground level.  There is interest on our streetcar committee on the whole "Park N' Ride" scenario thus the question.

Also, long with Reno/Walker fighting his site, I would suspect Dowelling would have a problem with his as well.  Lol

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## Just the facts

Maybe the city snatching up lots for parking garages will get the squaters moving.

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## Pete

Wanted to paste this from Steve's article for future reference, as links are often broken over time.




> Sites proposed were:
> • Compress Avenue and Reno Avenue just west of the U-Haul building in Lower Bricktown.
> • The block at the northwest intersection of Reno and Walker avenues (currently home to the Peacock restaurant).
> • A long narrow block bordered by Dewey Avenue, Main Street and Shartel Avenue.
> • The surface parking lot immediately south of City Hall.
> • The corner of NW 10 and Robinson Avenue
> • Mostly vacant land between Dewey Avenue, NW 5 and Walker Avenue.
> • The corner of Hudson Avenue and Park Place.
> • The Oklahoma City National Memorial surface parking lot at NW 5 and Robinson.
> ...

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## Rover

Is the site across from the Iguana where S&B is going in or west of that?

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## Pete

They are probably talking about the property that is between S&B and the RR tracks.

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## Rover

[QUOTE=Just the facts;491129]Maybe the city snatching up lots for parking garages will get the squaters moving.[/QUparking it should. First, the squatters may realize thE city could get their properties at lower appraised value.  It takes inventory of lots off the market and reduces supply (raising prices and encouraging sale or development), and raises the value by increasing people traffic in the immediate area.  Win for all, potentially.

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## rcjunkie

> Yes they are.  They fall into an exclusion group classified as "under other regulations".  I know this because I read it right before I made the post to be sure it was accurate.  Even some leased buildings are exempt


Having worked for the government 29 years, I promise your wrong, but believe what you wish.

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## Just the facts

> Having worked for the government 29 years, I promise your wrong, but believe what you wish.


From the ADA website run by the federal government.

http://www.ada.gov/q&aeng02.htm

The executive branch of the US federal government is exempt.  Go down to 'miscellaneous' at the bottom.

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## rcjunkie

> From the ADA website run by the federal government.
> 
> http://www.ada.gov/q&aeng02.htm
> 
> *The executive branch of the US federal government is exempt.*  Go down to 'miscellaneous' at the bottom.


Good thing the parking lot's / garages were talking about are City and Not Federal !!

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## mcca7596

But isn't JTF talking about the *employer's* responsibility to provide ADA acessible parking/sidewalks, not who owns the garage?

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## Lauri101

> Having worked for the government 29 years, I promise your wrong, but believe what you wish.


All I can speak for is my 33 years of federal service and the fact that, when IRS decided to not fund handicapped parking for employees or taxpayers, I took it to arbitration and experienced the worst a$$-kicking of my union career.  

At that time, we were leasing the entire building and no private companies were located there.  T

The Rehab Act of 1974 *does* still apply to federal space, leased and owned, but the Americans with Disability Act does NOT apply in most instances where federal employees are the main tenant.  The leased space considered "common use" (lobby, restrooms) are still subject to ADA rules, but someone has to complain.

Don't try to make this a logical set of rules.  When you are dealing with GSA as a landlord, there's no such thing as logic.
Disclaimer - I can only speak to what I know personally in my IRS work.  Can't speak to how other agencies deal.

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## bluedogok

> Government buildings are NOT exempt.





> Yes they are.  They fall into an exclusion group classified as "under other regulations".  I know this because I read it right before I made the post to be sure it was accurate.  Even some leased buildings are exempt


Most of the government buildings and lease space that I have worked on for the past 20 years have had to be ANSI/ADA or TAS (Texas Accessibility Standards) compliant, most office type buildings are not exempt. There are a few specialized military buildings that had parts of them that were exempt but the majority of spaces where a person with disabilities needed to have access were accessible. We were required to design to local building codes. The days of most governmental entities excluding buildings from codes or standards because they want to has pretty much been long over.

The new OKC Federal Building is ADA compliant, the new IRS auditor offices in Austin to replace the one that was hit by the airplane are TAS complaint, we had to have a TDLR review by a RAS to get a building permit from the City of Austin.

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## Just the facts

For the love of Pete:

http://www.ada.gov/q&aeng02.htm




> U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
> 
> U.S. Department of Justice
> Civil Rights Division
> 
> Americans with Disabilities Act
> Questions and Answers
> 
> Q. Is the Federal government covered by the ADA?
> ...


Now I can tell you first hand I work a lot with Sarbanes Oxley law and know for a fact that people who claim to be experts tell me all kinds of stuff I know not to be true (because I actually read Sarbanes-Oxley myself).  They usually tell me that because either A)  They don't want to do something, or B) They want to be paid extra for doing something that isn't actually required.  I suspect the same thing is true in the construction industry with regards to ADA.  The IRS, which is the subject of this sub-plot is a part of the Excutive branch - and thus - is not subject to ADA.

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## Rover

So, you are an accountant? Not an urbanist planner?

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## Just the facts

Not an account - just a New Urbanism Activist.

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## rcjunkie

During my time with the City of OKC, anytime we did a remodel or new construction of a City owned building, it had to meet Federal ADA Guidelines.

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## Rover

Whether technically required or not, I don't remember working on a Fed building in the last few years that didn't require us to provide ADA compliant equipment.

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## Just the facts

> During my time with the City of OKC, anytime we did a remodel or new construction of a City owned building, it had to meet Federal ADA Guidelines.


Fair enough - local and state governments are required to comply with ADA.

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## Lauri101

> For the love of Pete:
> 
> http://www.ada.gov/q&aeng02.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Now I can tell you first hand I work a lot with Sarbanes Oxley law and know for a fact that people who claim to be experts tell me all kinds of stuff I know not to be true (because I actually read Sarbanes-Oxley myself).  They usually tell me that because either A)  They don't want to do something, or B) They want to be paid extra for doing something that isn't actually required.  I suspect the same thing is true in the construction industry with regards to ADA.  The IRS, which is the subject of this sub-plot is a part of the Excutive branch - and thus - is not subject to ADA.


This!
Thank you!

----------


## bluedogok

Accessible parking is not required adjacent to a building unless there is parking required by code. For most downtown office buildings, they don't have parking tied to a building so the only requirement is for whatever remote lot to be accessible and on an "accessible route" to the building. Most suburban office buildings have accessible parking because the parking is required by code, so it must be provided at a ratio determined by building, land use or zoning codes.

Like Rover stated, most federal buildings including the IRS are compliant, the only reason why I can think that the IRS building in OKC is not compliant is because I think it was built before 1991 when the ADA went into effect. Even though the IRS may be are technically excluded per the ADA statutes the city still has to grant a building permit for work done inside the building and most cities (and I know the State of Texas) would press for a reasonable accommodation and expects anything new or remodeled these days to meet ADA/TAS. The agency requesting exemption would have to demonstrate a need to not comply, I don't think most would request that anymore.

It is also one more reason why I think the ADA should be codified and enforced by code officials instead of all complaints having to go through the Department of Justice or the TDLR in Texas.

Believe me, between what I do and who I am married to (a public advocate for people with disabilities) I know more about the ADA than I really ever cared to know.

----------


## Reno and Walker

Yawn Yawn

----------


## Rover

> Yawn Yawn


Not sure I understand. Do you find the idea of properly respecting and serving the disabled boring?

----------


## Lauri101

An additional comment -Enforcing ADA compliance can be done either through law enforcement or simple economics when it comes to private business.  I.E. - if a business is non-compliant, pleople can choose not to do business with them.  

With public buildings, "customers" don't always have a choice.  Try getting off the IRS mailing list and see how that works for you.  

And yes - the building was finished before ADA enactment.  The owners of the building have made some areas accessible, but not all.  We have one employee who is temporarily in a wheelchair and allowed to work at home for now.  There is no way possible she could navigate Project 180 construction.  We don't, however, allow a taxpayer the same reasonable accommodation.

Bottom line - parking downtown for those with disabilities is a nightmare.   An entire segment of the population is being ignored and disrespected.

----------


## Reno and Walker

> Not sure I understand. Do you find the idea of properly respecting and serving the disabled boring?


?  nice one rover..

----------


## Spartan

I'm going to jump in here and ignore the string of ad hominems in the last few posts. I have a very good feeling about the NW 10th and Robinson site, perhaps the best site, but that's the one that I've mostly been thinking over at this point.

Any other thoughts on that?

----------


## Lauri101

> I'm going to jump in here and ignore the string of ad hominems in the last few posts. I have a very good feeling about the NW 10th and Robinson site, perhaps the best site, but that's the one that I've mostly been thinking over at this point.
> 
> Any other thoughts on that?


After trying to remember what was there, I finally gave up and drove by the 10th and Robinson area on my way to McBride today.  Who would park there?  What would constitute the customer base/users in that area?  It seems so remote, unless I'm missing something major.   Now - if it were a park and ride - hell, yeah!

----------


## Urban Pioneer

> I'm going to jump in here and ignore the string of ad hominems in the last few posts. I have a very good feeling about the NW 10th and Robinson site, perhaps the best site, but that's the one that I've mostly been thinking over at this point.
> 
> Any other thoughts on that?


As a neighbor in the Mason Bldg, we're at raking capacity.  10th/Broadway can't be developed the way the would like to due to the parking issue.

It might go a long way to enabling further development in the area and along 9th.  Streetcar "Park N' Ride" would definitely be possible.

If it were the Bricktown site, perhaps it could be integrated into our transit hub monies/planning.

----------


## Spartan

I would think that doing the transit hub parking garage NOW with this opportunity would be a way of getting to that sooner than expected (or easier than expected).

Lauri, as for who would park in it, I think there are way more offices in Mid-town than we realize. Not to mention restaurants and a budding retail scene. These tenants can't afford to secure parking of their own, except for the heavy hitters like Plaza Court--if we had a public parking solution for Mid-town then developers could develop without having to worry about parking, which right now is a major concern in Mid-town (ie., as Jeff says is hindering the development at a few major intersections). I think it would also have the park-n-ride deal too.

----------


## Lauri101

> I would think that doing the transit hub parking garage NOW with this opportunity would be a way of getting to that sooner than expected (or easier than expected).
> 
> Lauri, as for who would park in it, I think there are way more offices in Mid-town than we realize. Not to mention restaurants and a budding retail scene. These tenants can't afford to secure parking of their own, except for the heavy hitters like Plaza Court--if we had a public parking solution for Mid-town then developers could develop without having to worry about parking, which right now is a major concern in Mid-town (ie., as Jeff says is hindering the development at a few major intersections). I think it would also have the park-n-ride deal too.


I see where you're coming from, Spartan.  I guess my tunnel vision regarding CBD frustrations interfered.  I rarely go to Mid-Town, but that is partly because of lack of parking options.  When we go that way for lunch we take the early shift at 11 AM, where there is no lack of parking!

----------


## CCOKC

My office looks out on this lot and I hope it is not chosen for selfish reasons.  Right now I am watching the renovations on the Packard building, the Cline and Frontline Church.  I don't think I would like to see a multi story parking garage as my main view every day.

----------


## Lauri101

> My office looks out on this lot and I hope it is not chosen for selfish reasons.  Right now I am watching the renovations on the Packard building, the Cline and Frontline Church.  I don't think I would like to see a multi story parking garage as my main view every day.


I can understand that.  I used to be able to see the Myriad Gardens before this monstrous tower was built.  :Wink:

----------


## OSUMom

With the city selling off their parking garages to private companies I do think that parking in downtown proper, not midtown, not AA not Bricktown but downtown is what they need to be looking at.  They wouldn't be in such a bind if they hadn't sold off so much parking to private companies.

----------


## Pete

Yes, if they are going to continue selling public garages for private use then there seems to be a responsibility to replace them.

And in turn, this process seems to be working:  1) build a garage with public money; 2) makes easier for everyone downtown, including new employers; 3) sell when someone is large enough to need if for their own use; 4) repeat.

Parking is always the biggest issue of anyone looking to locate downtown, so the more your can minimize it the more successful we'll be in getting companies to move/grow there.

----------


## Urban Pioneer

> My office looks out on this lot and I hope it is not chosen for selfish reasons.  Right now I am watching the renovations on the Packard building, the Cline and Frontline Church.  I don't think I would like to see a multi story parking garage as my main view every day.


That's why any of these garages should be "wrapped" in some other use.  Right now that site is a giant surface parking lot.  To me, that is of no aesthetic improvement.  Particularly when nary a tree exists either.

----------


## Spartan

Jeff, do you think 10th and Robinson stands a chance to be picked over Bricktown, or a site that could accomplish the coveted goal of tearing down buildings?

----------


## Pete

Here are the various sites the city are kicking around:

----------


## Just the facts

What do they mean by "future development" in that first picture?

----------


## Pete

They just mean empty space to be filled.

Nothing we didn't already know about a long time ago.

----------


## wschnitt

Is downtown site 3 a new superblock?  or do the arrows going north through it mean traffic will still flow on Lee?

----------


## Pete

> Is downtown site 3 a new superblock?  or do the arrows going north through it mean traffic will still flow on Lee?


Lee would be closed... The arrows just depict garage ingress/egress.

----------


## RodH

> Lee would be closed... The arrows just depict garage ingress/egress.


It looks like the floor plan seems to indicate a tunnel.

----------


## Just the facts

This one gets the JTF 5-star rating for location.  It provides parking for people doing business with the City, will provide foot traffic for nearby businesses, parking for Civic Center events, will be on the streetcar line, and does not create a superblock.

----------


## Pete

The placement of the three possible garages on the west side of the CBD is a further indication that something big is going to happen on the Preftakes block.

I think the 4th and Broadway site is probably big enough to incorporate a large parking structure.

----------


## ljbab728

> The placement of the three possible garages on the west side of the CBD is a further indication that something big is going to happen on the Preftakes block.


Those would also serve the new convention center on it's proposed site.

----------


## Urban Pioneer

Word has it the City Hall and the old YMCA site (5th/Robinson) are at the top of the list to start.

----------


## Architect2010

I like the City Hall site. A lot.

----------


## wschnitt

The 10th and robinson site needs to be at the SW corner as that is vacant.

----------


## Just the facts

I am not a big fan of putting a parking garage on a corner.  They should be mid-block.

----------


## kevinpate

What's the projected vertical on the DT site 1?  Would it be in keeping with other heights in the vicinity or would there be more height involved.

----------


## Just the facts

Ar 86 spaces per floor I am guessing it would be 8 to 10 floors.  If the Preftakes property across the street is factored in it could to twice that height.  I could see it being as tall as the Hightower building and the City building.

----------


## Spartan

I believe that site needs some great development obviously, I just don't think we need a parking garage towering over the last remnants of our historic Main Street storefronts, WHICH Preftakes is going to have some headaches if he wants to tear them down.

----------


## Just the facts

If Preftakes is going to build a tower in its place you are going to have one lonely fight.

----------


## ljbab728

http://newsok.com/no-vacancy-at-down...rticle/3653016

I'm hoping this doesn't occur and we can plan for a better use of this space.




> The Century Center Garage at Robinson and Sheridan avenues may offer the most immediate opportunity for expansion. Holtzclaw said engineers are looking at adding two stories to the public garage, a move that would provide an additional 350 spaces, but work couldn't begin for months.

----------


## Just the facts

If the City Hall garage is 500 spaces then that would make it 7 stories assuming there is no parking on the ground floor.

----------


## hipsterdoofus

The City hall site is by far the best option.  Many of the other sites wouldn't really alleviate problem because they are too far out from the current source.  Not surprising that the city hall site is the best, since the city thought that it made sense to build up the city west garage (before they thought it made sense to sell it at a loss).  People visiting City Hall, the library, the county courthouse, county offices, the museum and many other locations would benefit greatly from that location.

----------


## Pete

500 spaces at the City Hall site is not very many and that is still at least 1.5 years out.

Why not turn the future convention center land into surface lots for the time being?

----------


## kevinpate

> ... Why not turn the future convention center land into surface lots for the time being?


Or even longer.  Kind of sad there's even a problem.  Given all the delays in completing the new 40, and knowing all along the spaces under the now old 40 would have to yeild to demo and the new blvd., seems like substitute parking could have been arranged well in advance of any hurry up oh no whut to do now mode having any chance of setting in.  Shame on them.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> or even longer.  Kind of sad there's even a problem.  Given all the delays in completing the new 40, and knowing all along the spaces under the now old 40 would have to yeild to demo and the new blvd., seems like substitute parking could have been arranged well in advance of any hurry up oh no whut to do now mode having any chance of setting in.  Shame on them.


amen!

----------


## Pete

Plus, the City sold the Broadway/Kerr garage to SandRidge just recently, fully aware of this problem.

I'm all for what SandRidge is doing but they have also demolished a bunch of parking around their tower, are in the process of demolishing a bunch more in the old Globe Life structure and already own several surface lots near their campus.  So now we can't bring in more businesses because they chose to tear down parking they already had and don't want to develop their surface lots?

I'm sure part of the strategy is to create this capacity problem so it's easier to use eminent domain to gain control of key properties.

----------


## Jchaser405

I s this a common problem in other cities or is this just pOOOOOOOOOOr planning?

----------


## OklahomaNick

> I s this a common problem in other cities or is this just pOOOOOOOOOOr planning?


I wouldn't say that its been all POOR planning.. They City knew we were getting the NBA team in 2008. They knew Devon was building a tower in 2009, and believe it or not they knew about Continental in advance, but its just hard to get things moving including funding and putting out bids for city projects.

----------


## OklahomaNick

Also I was told by someone in the "know" that its going to cost in the range of $20,000 PER space added to make new floors in the Century Center garage, thus basically making it too expensive to expand that structure.

----------


## G.Walker

> The City hall site is by far the best option.  Many of the other sites wouldn't really alleviate problem because they are too far out from the current source.  Not surprising that the city hall site is the best, since the city thought that it made sense to build up the city west garage (before they thought it made sense to sell it at a loss).  People visiting City Hall, the library, the county courthouse, county offices, the museum and many other locations would benefit greatly from that location.


However, if a new skyscraper is built across the street, this garage will be filled up pretty quickly, unle:ss the occupant of new skyscraper builds their own on Preftakes site.

----------


## G.Walker

The City is really dragging their feet on public projects like Project 90, parking, and railroad quiet zone, that is hindering future private development.

----------


## Just the facts

Any new skyscraper will build their own parking - just like Devon did by adding floors to the garage they bought.  Also, the city doesn't own the Ford site yet and I think the price just went up.  I for one don't want anyone building a surface parking lot - especially the City.  I don't care if it is temporary or not.

----------


## Pete

The CC site doesn't need to have a surface lot built...  It was a car dealership and has tons of paved areas for cars.

Seems silly for it to sit empty directly across from the arena where there is a specific, immediate need.

----------


## catch22

The lot immediately west of the CHK Arena was bulldozed. So it would need to be repaved.

----------


## Pete



----------


## catch22

Ah, shows how much I park my car there. Lol.

----------


## BDP

> I s this a common problem in other cities or is this just pOOOOOOOOOOr planning?


Most popular cities have this problem. But most of them also have transportation alternatives that mitigate the need for parking. The bigger problem is that parking is 100% required for access to downtown. As long as this is true, prime real estate will continue to be used for parking, making it harder to ultimately develop a dense, mixed use downtown that many want. They could build garages with street front retail to preserve downtown's appeal, but I would be SHOCKED if the city did that. I'm pretty sure it will all be stopgap airport style parking garages plopped onto prime spots.

----------


## Bellaboo

All 3 lots west of the arena is full during the Thunder games, except for the closest one, which is 20 bucks, and it gets close to full. The next is $ 10 and the farthest is $5... and they fill up pretty fast.

----------


## BoulderSooner

century center parking garage .. can add 2 new garage levels and copta is discussing that from todays city council meeting 

city owns the 2 basements floors ..  private owner middle 2 (retail/office) city owns top 2 parking .. and has 40 feet of air rights..

----------


## OklahomaNick

I'll repeat what I previously posted in that the DowntownOKC Inc. people told a group of us that its going to cost in the range of $20,000 PER space added to make new floors in the Century Center garage, thus basically making it too expensive to expand that structure..

Unless something  changed.. Then that's a really expensive expansion.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I'll repeat what I previously posted in that the DowntownOKC Inc. people told a group of us that its going to cost in the range of $20,000 PER space added to make new floors in the Century Center garage, thus basically making it too expensive to expand that structure..
> 
> Unless something  changed.. Then that's a really expensive expansion.


brand new costs 12k per space or more

----------


## Pete

Here's what the final parking study being presented to City Council today says about the Century Center:




> The scenarios that exist for the Century Center garage are to expand vertically, demolish and rebuild, and leave as is which speaks for itself. The feasibility of the vertical expansion requires the existing foundations to have been designed to accommodate vertical expansion. A structural analysis of the existing foundation plans can determine if the garage has the ability for additional parking levels. Typically, parking garages are not designed for future expansion as there are greater costs associated with this during construction.
> 
> Demolishing and rebuilding the garage is an option to increase supply in the dense downtown core; although this is typically not a feasible option once a financial analysis is performed. Demolishing and rebuild can add an additional 30%-50% increase to the total construction costs. The net gain of spaces is usually limited, which drives up the cost per space significantly. Additionally, with the physical connection to the hotel, increased costs may occur based upon requirements of the building code changes that were not present when it was originally constructed. This option is typically a last resort.

----------


## Pete

And here's the garage sites being recommended for consideration.

"Future Development" shown in purple also includes vacant space they expect to fill, such as the Century Center.

----------


## king183

Am I reading correctly that they are proposing 9 new garages or just those are potential sites for garages (like 2 or 3 of them)?

----------


## Pete

Just potential sites over the long term.  The study shows parking in the CBD is almost maxed.


You can also look at where the three downtown garages are proposed and draw your own conclusion about why we would need that many spaces in that particular area.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Here's what the final parking study being presented to City Council today says about the Century Center:


in the council presentation .. rick cain (copta) said that the structural analysis has been completed and that the garage can support 2 levels of expansion

----------


## warreng88

OKC Council eyes downtown parking
By Brian Brus 
Journal Record
Posted: 06:35 PM Tuesday, April 17, 2012

OKLAHOMA CITY – City officials are considering the possibility of adding two levels to the Century Center parking garage in light of the latest study that projects a shortage of parking space downtown soon.

However, not all council members agree that the Oklahoma City municipal government should be involved in the parking space business.

“I’m sorry if I missed the point somewhere along the line, but when did the City Council make a policy decision that we would provide parking downtown?” Councilman Pat Ryan asked at the weekly council meeting Tuesday. “I know we’ve done it in the past and we’ve had some success from an economic development standpoint. But I think that’s one of those areas that we should have reviewed, maybe, before we spent the money to decide whether we’re going to spend money to add two floors to this garage.”

Rick Cain, director of the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority Trust, said it is unlikely that the current downtown parking in the Midtown, Automobile Alley, Bricktown and business districts will continue to meet growing demand. Parking congestion is expected to increase as Oklahoma City continues to grow, attracting residents and tourists for events and attractions in the heart of the city. However, stakeholders do not currently see a parking shortage crisis, according to a study by Walker Parking Consultants commissioned by City Hall. The study cost about $58,000.

The Walker study looked at about 26,000 garage and open lot parking spaces bound generally by NW 13th Street, Centennial Expressway, Reno Avenue and Dewey Avenue. The overall off-street occupancy is currently about 60 percent, the study found, and on-street occupancy is about 50 percent.

Walker consultants adjusted expected parking demand to account for absorption of office and retail space in the downtown area, and assumed that 2 million square feet of space planned for the study area will be occupied in phases over the next 10 years.

At a medium growth rate of 6 percent, after five years the downtown area will just barely meet parking demand with 700 spaces left over, the study concluded; increased traffic or longer passage of time will lead to insufficiencies.

Consultants considered several alternatives to address core growth, with one site in particular catching their interest: the Century Center garage at 100 W. Main St. The garage has 800 spaces for public parking and is adjacent to the Sheraton Hotel, which currently owns two retail floors sandwiched in the garage’s middle levels.

The garage’s foundation will allow vertical expansion, Cain said. Refurbishing the space is preferable to demolishing and rebuilding at the same site, which can add 30 percent to 50 percent to the total project costs.

“Now it’s up to the board to make a determination as to whether it makes financial sense,” Cain told council members.

Ryan and others said the council should reconsider how much parking the government should shoulder. He said other cities require private ventures to take up some or all of that responsibility. If the primary justification for government involvement is economic development, then perhaps bond money might be available for the project, he said.

Council members for decades have zoned the downtown business district to allow for skyscrapers that dramatically increase population density in a relatively small area. Elsewhere in the city, street-level lots or curbside parking is generally sufficient to support zoned development; downtown is unique.

Council members also discussed the viability of developing parking space farther away from the business district, but agreed that the local culture makes that difficult because people are not accustomed to walking or taking a secondary form of transit to reach their destinations.

----------


## Pete

The bad thing about adding two more levels of parking at the Century Center is that it will make it much less likely to ever be demolished.

In other words, we'd likely be stuck with that place for a very long time.

----------


## Steve

But what if it is transformed into something you won't mind being stuck with?

----------


## Just the facts

To bring this garage up to urban standards they could do the following in addition to making it taller.

1) Expand the footprint so that it is adjacent to the sidewalk on three sides.  This would allow for an extra row of parking on what would be 6 levels.  That would be about 360 extra parking spaces.
2) Change the retail configuration so that individual stores open to the sidewalk and not into an interior walkway.
3) Add an exterior balcony around the whole complex for second floor retail and restaurant tenants.
4) Trim the building in LED lights.

----------


## Pete

> But what if it is transformed into something you won't mind being stuck with?


That's hard to imagine but I hope it turns out to be the case.

----------


## Bullbear

> To bring this garage up to urban standards they could do the following in addition to making it taller.
> 
> 1) Expand the footprint so that it is adjacent to the sidewalk on three sides.  This would allow for an extra row of parking on what would be 6 levels.  That would be about 360 extra parking spaces.
> 2) Change the retail configuration so that individual stores open to the sidewalk and not into an interior walkway.
> 3) Add an exterior balcony around the whole complex for second floor retail and restaurant tenants.
> 4) Trim the building in LED lights.


All of that makes sense.. which is why it wont happen

----------


## Just the facts

Let me add a possible #5 - convert the 2nd floor retail space to apartments.

----------


## Urbanized

> That's hard to imagine but I hope it turns out to be the case.


Not 100% sure, but that is often the coy type of question Steve asks when he knows something we don't about the matter at hand.

----------


## Pete

There is definitely a deal afoot for the Century Center being sold to some local developers/investors.

I've been hearing about it for months but the particulars are vague.

----------


## Spartan

Tear _THAT_ down, not Stage Center.

----------


## skanaly

Can someone post the rendering for the addition to the parking garage just south of the first national tower

----------


## dankrutka

> But what if it is transformed into something you won't mind being stuck with?


It'll be interesting to see how it can be made attractive. Steve has been dropping hints left and right lately (e.g. see Kevin Durant restaurant thread about the design) so I suspect there's a plan to make this happen.

----------


## Spartan

> Can someone post the rendering for the addition to the parking garage just south of the first national tower


None exist

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I guess this should go in the new thread now.

----------


## Larry OKC

> Not 100% sure, but that is often the coy type of question Steve asks when he knows something we don't about the matter at hand.


beat me to it...




> While this subject is not really related to downtown parking, here is Steve's update.
> 
> http://newsok.com/renderings-are-unv...rticle/3667896
> 
> It's not a huge makeover but it's an improvement.

----------


## Pete

I moved a bunch of posts to a new thread specifically about the Santa Fe garage:

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=29622

----------


## skanaly

> None exist


Excuse me, I was thinking of the Sante Fe parking rendering

----------


## ljbab728

The new parking garage next to the Civic Center is moving forward and it sounds like they have some good ideas.




> Architects will be tasked with creating a garage that fits into the historic context of the area. *Discussions are ongoing as to whether to add additional* *residential floors above the garage*.





> “This project represents an excellent opportunity to provide spaces on the street level that create an active street,” McDermid said. “And the context is somewhat historic. You have the old Harbour Longmire building at 420 W Main, the Hightower building and some traditional early retail store buildings on Main. I'm sure we'll use some of that context for inspiration. … This is a fantastic project. We will be changing the streetscape — dramatically.



http://newsok.com/architect-hired-to...rticle/3686163

----------


## dankrutka

It be awesome if there was residential on top and some street level retail...

----------


## Spartan

Awesome!!

Kudos to the City. My hopes are especially spiked by McDermid, possibly my favorite OKC architect and a super nice guy, referring to the importance of the historic context. I don't think he would do that if he knew it was politically DOA to be saving those buildings. 

I think Devon raised the profile and opportunities for the western side of downtown, ie., "would Film Row be where it is today if not for the shadow cast by Devon?" I think we're about to see another development that once again causes a rise in the tide for downtown's west side, in conjunction with Preftakes' plans.

In 1995 everybody was pointing east. In 2005 everybody was pointing south. I can't say enough, in 2015, everybody could be pointing west in addition to all of those directions. Downtown's west side is going to come up huge.

Especially if we can get the Market Circle proposal..

----------


## ljbab728

> Especially if we can get the Market Circle proposal..


Let's don't turn this into another traffic circle debate, Spartan.  Pretty please?

----------


## G.Walker

Nice, 7 story garage, and if they add 5 floors of residential would be even better, good deal.

----------


## Spartan

They could almost make this a significantly tall building. The floorplates won't be very large, so if they want to get a few hundred apartment units or whatever, they will have to go way up.

----------


## Larry OKC

> Awesome!!
> 
> Kudos to the City. My hopes are especially spiked by McDermid, possibly my favorite OKC architect and a super nice guy, referring to the importance of the historic context. I don't think he would do that if he knew it was politically DOA to be saving those buildings. 
> 
> I think Devon raised the profile and opportunities for the western side of downtown, ie., "would Film Row be where it is today if not for the shadow cast by Devon?" I think we're about to see another development that once again causes a rise in the tide for downtown's west side, in conjunction with Preftakes' plans.
> 
> In 1995 everybody was pointing east. In 2005 everybody was pointing south. I can't say enough, in 2015, everybody could be pointing west in addition to all of those directions. Downtown's west side is going to come up huge.
> 
> Especially if we can get the Market Circle proposal..


Careful Spartan...that could almost be read as a positive post or certainly an "enthusiastic" one...

----------


## Spartan

> And here's the garage sites being recommended for consideration.
> 
> "Future Development" shown in purple also includes vacant space they expect to fill, such as the Century Center.


I'm fascinated that the Alliance has sites shaded for "future development" such as the thermal energy plant on EKG, the whole Century Center block, and the whole FNC block including the Main Street Garage.

----------


## HangryHippo

In a good way?

----------


## mcca7596

How would it work with residential if the city owns the building? Would they use a property management firm; is there a precedent for this in other cities?

----------


## Pete

> I'm fascinated that the Alliance has sites shaded for "future development" such as the thermal energy plant on EKG, the whole Century Center block, and the whole FNC block including the Main Street Garage.


I wouldn't read too much into that.

I remember looking through the document from which this graphic was extracted and they were basically talking about absorption of office space, such as Continental moving into the old Devon Tower, all the vacancy at FNC and the Century Center, etc.

If you look closely, they weren't very accurate with their purple shading.

----------


## kevinpate

Also the Century Center is already slated for some renovation work if I recall the article correctly.

As to residential on top of the 7 story garage, how many units could be added before they either need to add additional parking for the units or end up with only 5 floors of replacement parking with a floor or so for the new residents?

----------


## ljbab728

> Also the Century Center is already slated for some renovation work if I recall the article correctly.
> 
> As to residential on top of the 7 story garage, how many units could be added before they either need to add additional parking for the units or end up with only 5 floors of replacement parking with a floor or so for the new residents?


If you compare it to Level, they have about 300 parking spaces for 228 apartments.  Adding a similar number of apartments would provide a net gain of about 400 parking spaces.  Of course there is always the possibility that people who might live in those apartments currently drive in from the suburbs and are already taking up parking spaces so that number might not be completely accurate in gaging the gain in numbers.

----------


## Spartan

LEVEL's floorplates are enormous, as that building sprawls the entire block. This structure will have considerably smaller floorplates, so 5 floors of apartments here would not be equivalent to 5 floors of LEVEL apartments for example. Although I'm unsure how you'd adjust for the parking structure that those units are wrapped around.

It may end up being that the housing is wrapped around the parking structure similarly as that would make some sense; it would make _a lot_ of sense if the site were larger.

There are some illustrations of parking structures along the "boulevard" we were promised that were in the SkylineInk animation of C2S that I think could serve as really cool inspiration for this project, although they certainly weren't historically sensitive (as if that had a place in C2S).

----------


## ljbab728

> LEVEL's floorplates are enormous, as that building sprawls the entire block. This structure will have considerably smaller floorplates, so 5 floors of apartments here would not be equivalent to 5 floors of LEVEL apartments for example. Although I'm unsure how you'd adjust for the parking structure that those units are wrapped around.
> 
> It may end up being that the housing is wrapped around the parking structure similarly as that would make some sense; it would make _a lot_ of sense if the site were larger.
> 
> There are some illustrations of parking structures along the "boulevard" we were promised that were in the SkylineInk animation of C2S that I think could serve as really cool inspiration for this project, although they certainly weren't historically sensitive (as if that had a place in C2S).


The area covered by the Level apartments probably only takes up about half of that land area.

http://www.levelokc.com/phases

----------


## Spartan

_Oh noooo...._ the mol space may be comparable if you take out the garage in the middle, but I still think the LEVEL apartments take up more land. We're talking about a quarter block (the deviation from the grid is due to the Bicentennial Park oval) without frontage on either Walker or Hudson.

----------


## ljbab728

> _Oh noooo...._ the mol space may be comparable if you take out the garage in the middle, but I still think the LEVEL apartments take up more land. We're talking about a quarter block (the deviation from the grid is due to the Bicentennial Park oval) without frontage on either Walker or Hudson.


You're misunderstanding me, Spartan.  I meant that the apartment area of the Level takes up only about half of the land area allotted for that development.

----------


## Spartan

Ohh, right now I'm with you. Sorry lj.

----------


## Just the facts

nm

----------


## 1972ford

When are city leaders going to wise up and put a public garage underground maybe under the new park it would double up as a storm shelter for the immeadiate area.  Sooner or later downtown will be hit with a tornado and all them people at the park on the streets and the river will have nowhere to go

----------


## Larry OKC

They were going to put parking under the Park but decided it would be cost prohibitive (but that was also at a time when they insisted we didn't have a parking problem)

----------


## 1972ford

I don't see why they should deviate from that idea even if it costs more upfront that is less land owned by the city thus more land in the most expensive area of OKC can be assessed property taxes not to mention its the ideal location for a garage being close to event centers, businesses, and the streetcar plan would have access to the boulavard thus slowing traffic where it would need to be slowed the most and at the times when the traffic would NEED to be slowed.  maybe we could get ODOT to fund it since slowing traffic on it is part of the mission lol.

----------


## ljbab728

1972, if it costs more upfront where would you suggest that they get that extra money?

----------


## ljbab728

New parking meters going in with an interesting concept.




> “Users either choose coins or credit to enter their time, print a receipt and put the receipt on the front driver’s side windshield of their car. The receipt must be visible to avoid a parking violation.”
> 
> If the purchaser of parking returns to their vehicle before their chosen time has expired, they will be able to leave the receipt on the dashboard and move their vehicle to any other curbside parking space with the “pay and display” meters without having to pay again.
> 
> The pay and display receipts will not be valid for spaces in Bricktown and elsewhere downtown with older meters.
> 
> *“You’re now paying for time, not for a specific space,” Holtzclaw said of the new system. “Users of curbside parking downtown will no longer have to leave unused time for the next driver; they can take it with them.”*


Now they need to figure out a way that you could use the unused time on another day.


http://newsok.com/pay-and-display-pa...rticle/3686970

----------


## 1972ford

I know where 1.3 million of it could come from lol

IF the city collects any of the property taxes they could in theory use "creative accounting" allocating a certain property's taxes to the garage indefinatly or take a bond against future garage revenues

----------


## ljbab728

> I know where 1.3 million of it could come from lol
> 
> IF the city collects any of the property taxes they could in theory use "creative accounting" allocating a certain property's taxes to the garage indefinatly or take a bond against future garage revenues


I suspect they have many more urgent priorities.

----------


## 1972ford

How is parking not a priority? Its a much needed thing in OKC and to place it on land the city already is planning on owning would open up more property downtown to the property tax rolls in the long run it would be of great benefit to the city and the city could probably get state and federal grants to help fund it if the city were to designate it a storm shelter as well.  I couldn't imagine the city's cost(after any federal and state funds) being more than $10 million over an above ground parking lot the city would need to buy the land for an above ground lot which lowers the gap further.

Downtown will need shelters from tornadoes that can accomidate thousands of people there is no reason we should not plan ahead and hide the ugly garages underground while providing safty and piece of mind during tonadoes would also provide cover in the event of hail as well for people that are stuck in the open park. its not like they would need a 5 story garage underground at a site that large just 2 or 3 levels would do it

----------


## ljbab728

> How is parking not a priority? Its a much needed thing in OKC and to place it on land the city already is planning on owning would open up more property downtown to the property tax rolls in the long run it would be of great benefit to the city and the city could probably get state and federal grants to help fund it if the city were to designate it a storm shelter as well.  I couldn't imagine the city's cost(after any federal and state funds) being more than $10 million over an above ground parking lot the city would need to buy the land for an above ground lot which lowers the gap further.
> 
> Downtown will need shelters from tornadoes that can accomidate thousands of people there is no reason we should not plan ahead and hide the ugly garages underground while providing safty and piece of mind during tonadoes would also provide cover in the event of hail as well for people that are stuck in the open park. its not like they would need a 5 story garage underground at a site that large just 2 or 3 levels would do it


Because the kind of parking you are suggesting is not a much needed thing in OKC and things like public safety and transit are more urgent.  You don't seem to understand that an underground parking area would be more expensive than above ground and above ground parking does not have to be ugly. Please note the proposal for the new parking near the Civic Center.  If OKC had unlimited money your idea would be fine but that's just not the case. As for tornado shelters, most downtown buildings already have basements.  That just isn't a major issue.  The underground parking area below the Cox Center could already accommodate thousands.

----------


## 1972ford

maybe some of that 1.3 million in surplus should go towards signage downtown directing people to 24 hour public access storm shelters

----------


## ljbab728

> maybe some of that 1.3 million in surplus should go towards signage downtown directing people to 24 hour public access storm shelters


I"m thinking you need a "LOL" after that statement because I've never heard of people downtown being confused about what to do if storms approach.

----------


## jbrown84

Yeah I'm not sure there's an urgent need for storm shelters downtown.




> They were going to put parking under the Park but decided it would be cost prohibitive (but that was also at a time when they insisted we didn't have a parking problem)


Since they ended up gutting Bicentennial Park, trees and all, it's too bad they didn't put an underground garage there a la Pershing Square in LA or Union Square in SFO.

----------


## catch22

Not to mention basements in most downtown buildings, there is also tens of thousands of square feet of underground shelter in the tunnels of the Underground.

----------


## Spartan

I thought that the $1.3 million was supposed to go toward Sunday bus service?

As for underground parking, there are other considerations. Putting a parking deck beneath the park will significantly limit landscaping in the park, apparently other parks with underground parking have limited landscaping directly above the underground parking structures - essentially about what you'd see on a rooftop garden or something like that (you can't do anything with extensive root systems, like a tree).

----------


## kevinpate

> I thought that the $1.3 million was supposed to go toward Sunday bus service?...



One of several options under consideration.  Another is adding an extra 20 policia beyond an already programmed increase. There's another option or three out there as well.

----------


## Larry OKC

> New parking meters going in with an interesting concept.
> 
> 
> 
> Now they need to figure out a way that you could use the unused time on another day.
> 
> 
> http://newsok.com/pay-and-display-pa...rticle/3686970


That article brought several unanswered questions to mind (that one included).
1) How does it know that you have time left? When you leave, does the meter issue a time stamped receipt or something (like the gate does when you leave a parking garage)?
2) Do you have to find another space before your 30 minutes to 2 hours is up?
3) The article started out with a lady being thrilled with the advent of these new meters because the construction folks take up the spaces all day. What about these meters change that?
4) it said that parking rates are going up. Think the minimum amount now is 25 cents for 15 minutes(?) and now it will be 75 cents for 30. Why the cost increase? Thought they said when this was proposed that there wouldn't be a cost increase, that increased efficiency, usage would make them self-supporting???

----------


## Larry OKC

> I"m thinking you need a "LOL" after that statement because I've never heard of people downtown being confused about what to do if storms approach.


For those working downtown you are probably right, but for those visiting the area, and especially the Park area, it is probably a good idea.





> I thought that the $1.3 million was supposed to go toward Sunday bus service?
> 
> As for underground parking, there are other considerations. Putting a parking deck beneath the park will significantly limit landscaping in the park, apparently other parks with underground parking have limited landscaping directly above the underground parking structures - essentially about what you'd see on a rooftop garden or something like that (you can't do anything with extensive root systems, like a tree).


I'm not sure why it would. Depends on how far below ground it was (remember there are supposed to be lakes/large ponds on top too) and the type of trees chosen. Trees are used on rooftop gardens etc. Supposedly there are gong to be trees and other landscaping ON new Countyline Road overpass out there by the truck stops

----------


## betts

I think it's like the ones in Chicago.  With those meters, you buy a certain amount of parking time.  So, if you buy 2 hours of parking at 1 p.m., you can park at any meter in the city until 3p.m.  You simply display your receipt on your dashboard.  But, once your time has expired, it's unusable.  I think you can rebuy time for the same space, as long as you aren't staying longer than the maximum because the pay and display receipts aren't specific to a specific space.  It's just for a specific amount of time.

----------


## Oil Capital

> As for underground parking, there are other considerations. Putting a parking deck beneath the park will significantly limit landscaping in the park, apparently other parks with underground parking have limited landscaping directly above the underground parking structures - essentially about what you'd see on a rooftop garden or something like that (you can't do anything with extensive root systems, like a tree).





> I'm not sure why it would. Depends on how far below ground it was (remember there are supposed to be lakes/large ponds on top too) and the type of trees chosen. Trees are used on rooftop gardens etc. Supposedly there are gong to be trees and other landscaping ON new Countyline Road overpass out there by the truck stops


It wouldn't.  There are any number of underground parking garages around the country with trees planted on top of them (not to mention underground convention centers with trees planted on top of them, e.g., Cleveland's)

----------


## jedicurt

you just can't use trees whose roots go really deep... but there are plenty of trees that have fairly shallow root systems that it isn't a major problem... but yes, it does stop you from planting some types of trees but i don't really see it as a big limit to landscaping capabilities

----------


## Spartan

It doesn't matter either way what I write and then click post. Hargreaves already advised on the matter, which I think rcjunkie pointed out in another thread, with regards to the MAPS3 Central Park.

----------


## Oil Capital

> It doesn't matter either way what I write and then click post. Hargreaves already advised on the matter, which I think rcjunkie pointed out in another thread, with regards to the MAPS3 Central Park.


Are you seriously trying to leave the impression that Hargreaves advised that underground parking would preclude trees in the park above the parking?  I am quite confident they did no such thing, because they know that is simply false.

----------


## Just the facts

Thanks Oil Capitol.  You can put almost anything you want on top of an underground parking garage.  In fact, Discovery Channel had an episode a while back showing not only the parking under New York's Central Park, but the 7 stories of archive storage as well.  It is not like there is 3 feet of dirt on top of the roof.

----------


## Spartan

> Are you seriously trying to leave the impression that Hargreaves advised that underground parking would preclude trees in the park above the parking?  I am quite confident they did no such thing, because they know that is simply false.


What kind of argument is this? "Pfft, obviously Hargreaves did not do that because surely, they know exactly what I know, nothing more and nothing less." Perhaps you're actually being modest for once, I mean, how can they even know as much as you do about OKC, since nobody knows more even though you live in Tulsa?

I'm not in a position either way on this underground parking thing, so if you're wanting to troll me you're going to have to wait for another opportunity. The simple fact is that, while there isn't any public record on MAPS3-related things _obviously_, underground parking was planned for the MAPS3 Central Park and now it is not. 

Considering E.D. is actually my field, (ie., how organic and built material inter-relate) I can say the environmental logistics of planting on top of structures is a lot more simple than people would suspect. All you have to do is account for 50 and 100-year root systems, and you'd be surprised how extensive some root systems can be - you may not even have to accommodate soil horizons. However, some trees' root networks grow much faster than the actual tree.

Whether you guys think it's a good idea, and because it is possible albeit expensive I'd argue it just comes down to the need for the parking there that can't be met by a nearby parking garage, the point is just that somebody at the city doesn't think so. Instead of revving up to troll me as you always do, why don't you troll Couch and Wenger instead if you think we need underground parking.

What is being done however is a new parking garage with housing on top of it, and I for one am extremely excited about this development opportunity, and think we should be talking about that.

----------


## Oil Capital

> What kind of argument is this? "Pfft, obviously Hargreaves did not do that because surely, they know exactly what I know, nothing more and nothing less." Perhaps you're actually being modest for once, I mean, how can they even know as much as you do about OKC, since nobody knows more even though you live in Tulsa?
> 
> I'm not in a position either way on this underground parking thing, so if you're wanting to troll me you're going to have to wait for another opportunity. The simple fact is that, while there isn't any public record on MAPS3-related things _obviously_, underground parking was planned for the MAPS3 Central Park and now it is not. 
> 
> Considering E.D. is actually my field, (ie., how organic and built material inter-relate) I can say the environmental logistics of planting on top of structures is a lot more simple than people would suspect. All you have to do is account for 50 and 100-year root systems, and you'd be surprised how extensive some root systems can be - you may not even have to accommodate soil horizons. However, some trees' root networks grow much faster than the actual tree.
> 
> Whether you guys think it's a good idea, and because it is possible albeit expensive I'd argue it just comes down to the need for the parking there that can't be met by a nearby parking garage, the point is just that somebody at the city doesn't think so. Instead of revving up to troll me as you always do, why don't you troll Couch and Wenger instead if you think we need underground parking.
> 
> What is being done however is a new parking garage with housing on top of it, and I for one am extremely excited about this development opportunity, and think we should be talking about that.


Once again, Spartan has been caught spinning tales, and when exposed, whines about trolls, waves his claimed academic credentials, tries to change the subject . . .all of his usual tactics.  

Simple facts:  Contrary to the claim made by Spartan, trees can be planted on top of parking garages.  Hargreaves know this and would not advise anyone otherwise.  We know Hargreaves know this because they have designed projects with trees on top of parking garages.

----------


## Spartan

Huh?

----------


## Snowman

> That article brought several unanswered questions to mind (that one included).
> 1) How does it know that you have time left? When you leave, does the meter issue a time stamped receipt or something (like the gate does when you leave a parking garage)?
> 2) Do you have to find another space before your 30 minutes to 2 hours is up?
> 3) The article started out with a lady being thrilled with the advent of these new meters because the construction folks take up the spaces all day. What about these meters change that?
> 4) it said that parking rates are going up. Think the minimum amount now is 25 cents for 15 minutes(?) and now it will be 75 cents for 30. Why the cost increase? Thought they said when this was proposed that there wouldn't be a cost increase, that increased efficiency, usage would make them self-supporting???


1) you get a receipt that states the time remaining, which will be on your dashboard.
2) they are zoned for a max of either one hour or two, then you would have to move or be risk being fined.
3) If they are willing to get fined every day it may not but it would become much cheaper to just pay for longer term parking after the meters are in.
4) part of it is credit card fees, the minimum transactions fees are something around 30 cents.

----------


## Larry OKC

Reportedly, according to City Manager Couch, there is more than the $1.3 million for the Council to spend. IIRC, they have several million in extra funds (like they did last year) that they can use without it effecting some rating or another)...IIRC, it is around $8 million???

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## ophitke38

Suddenly my car is just a soft drink bottle in one of those mega-vending machines - LOL

----------


## ophitke38

Let's face it - parking garage spaces are expensive. Figure the square footage of both the parking space and the access, you're looking at $30-40,000 to provide parking for one person's personal vehicle. That doesn't even consider the cost of the interstates and streets to allow that vehicle to get from the owner's driveway to the parking garage. But in a city that simply refuses to make a significant investment in commuter rail, that's the tax that's forced on everyone. There's a significant segment of the population that just has no desire to come downtown if their only means of doing so is driving their car and parking it. It's much easier to drive to the local Wal-Mart and park for free. 

But the reality is that, for downtown Oklahoma City to continue to grow, there has to be a better way to get people into and out of downtown. High population density simply does not coexist with an additional $30-40,000 cost of providing a parking space for each downtown resident - in addition to comparable spaces for visitors/shoppers/guests. In a metropolitan area where it's much less expensive to buy raw land on the edge of the metro and build, what's the incentive to move downtown? The only thing the city can do is spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build infrastructure in the hopes of luring people to a downtown park, near the Thunder, near Bricktown, near the Olympic rowing venue - near something they like enough to tip that decision. 

The city really needs to get serious about commuter rail. I'm much more likely to come downtown if I can get where I want to go - a Thunder game, the courthouse, the civic center, etc. - and back at a nominal cost without having to drag my vehicle along with me.

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## Spartan

I've never heard anyone anywhere assert that building in a downtown area should be cheaper. That said, I also think people would be surprised just how much parking exists downtown, especially free parking, both in lots and on the street. There are dozens of thousands of free spaces everywhere you look. Too much.

The current parking crunch is limited to spots for office workers to park all-day in, because most of the free spots have time limits on them, to make sure that they are available when you want to come downtown to eat or see a movie, etc.

----------


## CaptDave

> Let's face it - parking garage spaces are expensive. Figure the square footage of both the parking space and the access, you're looking at $30-40,000 to provide parking for one person's personal vehicle. That doesn't even consider the cost of the interstates and streets to allow that vehicle to get from the owner's driveway to the parking garage. But in a city that simply refuses to make a significant investment in commuter rail, that's the tax that's forced on everyone. There's a significant segment of the population that just has no desire to come downtown if their only means of doing so is driving their car and parking it. It's much easier to drive to the local Wal-Mart and park for free. 
> 
> But the reality is that, for downtown Oklahoma City to continue to grow, there has to be a better way to get people into and out of downtown. High population density simply does not coexist with an additional $30-40,000 cost of providing a parking space for each downtown resident - in addition to comparable spaces for visitors/shoppers/guests. In a metropolitan area where it's much less expensive to buy raw land on the edge of the metro and build, what's the incentive to move downtown? The only thing the city can do is spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build infrastructure in the hopes of luring people to a downtown park, near the Thunder, near Bricktown, near the Olympic rowing venue - near something they like enough to tip that decision. 
> 
> The city really needs to get serious about commuter rail. I'm much more likely to come downtown if I can get where I want to go - a Thunder game, the courthouse, the civic center, etc. - and back at a nominal cost without having to drag my vehicle along with me.


Agree 100%. Until I can move downtown, commuter rail is one thing that would get me down there more often.

----------


## ljbab728

Good news for parking in the AA and Midtown area.  Also good new for the Hotel Marion building.


http://newsok.com/garage-is-proposed...financial-news

----------


## bombermwc

I would agree CaptDave, but how do you make it work in a city so spread out like ours, with such little density? The problem has been, and for the foreseeable future, will continue to be that lack of density. It means you have to spend more on getting the lines out further, so your cost-per-rider goes up. You either have to eat that cost, or pass it on to the rider.

Like any other commuter line, you'll have to provide parking at the station for the person that's riding. In situations like that, you HAVE to make the ride on the train faster, more convenient, and at least as cheap as it would be to take you take your own car in. Again, given our density, that simply won't happen today. Given that you can get from driveway to parking spot in <30 pretty much no matter where in the city you go defeats it...today. With rail, there will be multiple stops, probably a train change, and because it's a static line you will have a limited number of places that are within the average person's walking limit. Remember if it's not < 1/4 mile from the station, people aren't going to use it...and that's probably giving them more credit than they deserve. 

So parking is an aspect of all things. It is directly connected to commuter rail. Take something like the D.C. lines as a good example of how to do it right. BUT, there are a LOT more people in the same amount of space. That density is what does it for you. Take a look at their map http://www.wmata.com/rail/docs/colormap_lettersize.pdf? No you find me a way to make OKC work in a similar fashion, and i'll be on board and will say screws to downtown parking alltogether. You've got transfer stations, multimodal, continued growth....

----------


## Just the facts

> Good news for parking in the AA and Midtown area.  Also good new for the Hotel Marion building.
> 
> 
> http://newsok.com/garage-is-proposed...financial-news


Holy crap - how did that sneak by us with no comments?  That is huge news.  It must be being discussed in another thread.

----------


## Larry OKC

I asked the question over in the article but what is a "forgivable loan"? Does that mean we are just giving away $2 million???

----------


## Bellaboo

> I asked the question over in the article but what is a "forgivable loan"? Does that mean we are just giving away $2 million???


Probably more like $3.00 a person...lol

----------


## kevinpate

> I asked the question over in the article but what is a "forgivable loan"? Does that mean we are just giving away $2 million???


Not exactly.  That would be a gift.  Think of it as a conditional gift, with a few strings attached.  If you do the appropriate tightrope walk along the strings, then the loan will be forgiven.  Sometimes that happens in stages, sometimes at the end.

----------


## Larry OKC

oh like the Dell deal, where the City forgave the loan even though they didn't quite live up to the promises...

----------


## Just the facts

> oh like the Dell deal, where the City forgave the loan even though they didn't quite live up to the promises...


Your optimism knows no bounds.  :Smile:

----------


## MDot

> Your optimism knows no bounds.


*Like

----------


## Larry OKC

Very optimistic that the same thing will happen...especially when they say it upfront...LOL

Ove rthe years, they supposedly have put safeguards in place, then don't enforce the safeguards.

----------


## OKCTalker

The new meters are in, and I went downtown today for the first time. I couldn't understand how they work, was unable to insert change, was ticketed ($15.00), and then couldn't even find a meter reader to explain them to me. Shouldn't a parking meter be as simple as a Coke machine? 1) Insert change or a credit/debit card. 2) Receive ticket. 3) Place ticket on windshield. Couldn't get past step 1. 

I inserted four quarters, pressed the green button marked "Print Receipt" and the display said "Insufficient Amount." I pressed the red button marked "Cancel." In the coin return was $1.50 (I'm obviously not the only one having problems with the meters). When I attempted to insert change a second time, the coin slot was blocked. 

I won't fight this in court and I won't write a letter to Cornett, Couch or council, but I'll say here that they're not intuitive. Downtown merchants will be the ones that suffer. 

If Coke made their machines this difficult to use, they would have gone out of business years ago.

----------


## Spartan

Worked fine for me. Push the center button to go up in increments of time then put your receipt on your dash.

----------


## Larry OKC

*OKCtalker*: I agree that fighting it in court would probably be a waste of time and money because you are probably going to lose, just easier to pay the fine rather than go thru the hassle of taking off work etc. Also, this is probably not a matter for the Mayor or Council (at this stage), I would suggest maybe talking/emailing whomever it is in the City that is responsible with the meters on a daily basis. Explain it to them. Then if you don't get an appropriate resolution, then take it on up the ladder.

----------


## metro

> The new meters are in, and I went downtown today for the first time. I couldn't understand how they work, was unable to insert change, was ticketed ($15.00), and then couldn't even find a meter reader to explain them to me. Shouldn't a parking meter be as simple as a Coke machine? 1) Insert change or a credit/debit card. 2) Receive ticket. 3) Place ticket on windshield. Couldn't get past step 1. 
> 
> I inserted four quarters, pressed the green button marked "Print Receipt" and the display said "Insufficient Amount." I pressed the red button marked "Cancel." In the coin return was $1.50 (I'm obviously not the only one having problems with the meters). When I attempted to insert change a second time, the coin slot was blocked. 
> 
> I won't fight this in court and I won't write a letter to Cornett, Couch or council, but I'll say here that they're not intuitive. Downtown merchants will be the ones that suffer. 
> 
> If Coke made their machines this difficult to use, they would have gone out of business years ago.


I agree. I used one about a week ago. There were NO instructions, not even on the machine. Had I not been so familiar with downtown and knowing these were coming, I'd definitely had missed it and be clueless. Another blunder at the city. I also noticed they have new smart cars to patrol the meters. Guess they have to pay for those new smart cars somehow (increased traffic parking tickets due to lack of instruction or promotion).

----------


## Snowman

> I agree. I used one about a week ago. There were NO instructions, not even on the machine. Had I not been so familiar with downtown and knowing these were coming, I'd definitely had missed it and be clueless. Another blunder at the city. I also noticed they have new smart cars to patrol the meters. Guess they have to pay for those new smart cars somehow (increased traffic parking tickets due to lack of instruction or promotion).


They said the increase was largely to offset the credit card transactions fees, which the minimum charges do cover most of the change, though it seems like that should not also be passed on to the people paying with coins

----------


## Spartan

> I agree. I used one about a week ago. There were NO instructions, not even on the machine. Had I not been so familiar with downtown and knowing these were coming, I'd definitely had missed it and be clueless. Another blunder at the city. I also noticed they have new smart cars to patrol the meters. Guess they have to pay for those new smart cars somehow (increased traffic parking tickets due to lack of instruction or promotion).


Woah easy there. I think you downgrade legitimate concern over actual issues when you try and manufacture a controversy where there is none just to serve your own ego. To criticize the city for any little thing, especially when there is no evidence of foul play, is reckless and irresponsible to people fighting for significant progress on the actual urban issues.

It's like complaining loudly about parking in Bricktown. Come off it. The new smart meters are a breeze to use, I personally much prefer this to the traditional meters, as someone who uses street parking a lot.

----------


## Pete

Plans proceed for new downtown Oklahoma City parking garage
By Steve Lackmeyer | Published: August 16, 2012

Plans will proceed for a 750-space downtown garage south of city hall that will include 20,000-square feet of street-level retail and multiple floors on top for housing.


Read more: http://newsok.com/plans-proceed-for-...#ixzz23i8Hiqvf

----------


## TStheThird

I had issues with a meter downtown not taking my debit card. Got a ticket. Called the number on the ticket to report a faulty meter. They sent someone to check it. It was faulty. Ticket forgiven.

----------


## Skyline

> Plans proceed for new downtown Oklahoma City parking garage
> By Steve Lackmeyer | Published: August 16, 2012
> 
> Plans will proceed for a 750-space downtown garage south of city hall that will include 20,000-square feet of street-level retail and multiple floors on top for housing.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/plans-proceed-for-...#ixzz23i8Hiqvf


What would be the height of a building to meet these specifications? Especially with the multiple floors for housing.

----------


## Pete

One floor for retail, then I would guess 6-8 for parking then perhaps 3-4 for housing.

Perhaps about 12 levels all together?


The Hightower building due east is 10 floors.

----------


## Rover

Nice addition and infill.

----------


## G.Walker

Great urban mixed-use project for downtown, let's hope its done right, this could be a model for future mixed use projects for downtown. This is basically knocking out 3 birds with one stone.  Hoping for first level retail, 7 levels for parking, and 5 levels for housing, putting it at 13 levels. I wonder if they have room for some office?

----------


## Pete

Once again, I moved several off-topic posts to here:

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=24698&page=15

----------


## metro

> Woah easy there. I think you downgrade legitimate concern over actual issues when you try and manufacture a controversy where there is none just to serve your own ego. To criticize the city for any little thing, especially when there is no evidence of foul play, is reckless and irresponsible to people fighting for significant progress on the actual urban issues.
> 
> It's like complaining loudly about parking in Bricktown. Come off it. The new smart meters are a breeze to use, I personally much prefer this to the traditional meters, as someone who uses street parking a lot.


Lol, this coming from the guy who criticizes everything and everybody, ala Sandridge. Apparently I'm not the only one who felt that way as I was echoing a previous posters experience.

----------


## Spartan

Metro, you're delirious. You were against SR as well. And I don't understand what that could possibly have to do with this thread, besides you're obsession with me.




> Great urban mixed-use project for downtown, let's hope its done right, this could be a model for future mixed use projects for downtown. This is basically knocking out 3 birds with one stone.  Hoping for first level retail, 7 levels for parking, and 5 levels for housing, putting it at 13 levels. I wonder if they have room for some office?


I really think the city ought to consider a new office building and prepare to sell the 420 Bldg to Preftakes. The 420 Bldg would be so much better as housing... this new development will be adjacent to the grey/blue city building.

----------


## Pete

Recent report by COPTA showing how dire downtown parking has become.

They actually way over sell available spaces; every garage is 100% or higher.

And note the sole garage "only" at 100% is Sheridan/Walker, and this is before the new downtown elementary school has even opened.


Besides the new Main Street Garage and expansion of the Century Center, I sure hope they are getting busy lining up more projects because downtown growth is already being constrained.

----------


## Patrick

Yet, COPTA loses money every year.

----------


## CCOKC

COPTA loses money but they also are responsible for the bus system.  I would guess the parking garages make money.  I am not sure about that though.

----------


## Dubya61

If a RTA is ever developed, will OKC Parking get absorbed into that?  Will COPTA go away?  What does the best possible big picture look like if we EVER get an RTA going?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> If a RTA is ever developed, will OKC Parking get absorbed into that?  Will COPTA go away?  What does the best possible big picture look like if we EVER get an RTA going?


i would bet the the bus/transit park of copta goes to the RTA   and copta   becomes just a parking authority

----------


## warreng88

From the chat today:

Gary T - 10:25 a.m. With parking garages at more than 100% of capicity, what is the city/COPTA doing (besides the obvious building of the new parking garage on Main street) to make this better? I would be willing to bet with the building of the Mystery Tower, there will be a parking garage attached, but what about the new businesses that move downtown with no where to park? Could this be a hinderance to future development?

Steve Lackmeyer - 10:31 a.m. The Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City, the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority and City Hall are all scrambling to figure out an answer. Don Karchmer is still trying to figure out how to build a garage on Main Street in Bricktown that would connect to The Underground and yet might somehow address concerns of rail transit advocates who believe the city will someday have a shot at high speed rail which would need a track on that same property. Yes, this capacity issue is already a problem and it's getting worse.

----------


## warreng88

And this was pretty shocking to me:

Gary T - 11:06 a.m. Is the city doing anything to get the owners of parking lots to develop them in DT/BT/Midtown as far as the threat of increasing taxes or something of that nature?

Steve Lackmeyer - 11:06 a.m. Actually, the renewed Business Improvement District ordinance approved a couple of years ago incentivizes surface parking lot owners not to seek denser development.

Steve Lackmeyer - 11:07 a.m. It's cheaper in the BID to own a surface parking lot than to have a building on the same property.

----------


## catch22

> From the chat today:
> 
> Gary T - 10:25 a.m. With parking garages at more than 100% of capicity, what is the city/COPTA doing (besides the obvious building of the new parking garage on Main street) to make this better? I would be willing to bet with the building of the Mystery Tower, there will be a parking garage attached, but what about the new businesses that move downtown with no where to park? Could this be a hinderance to future development?
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer - 10:31 a.m. The Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City, the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority and City Hall are all scrambling to figure out an answer. Don Karchmer is still trying to figure out how to build a garage on Main Street in Bricktown that would connect to The Underground and yet might somehow address concerns of rail transit advocates who believe the city will someday have a shot at high speed rail which would need a track on that same property. Yes, this capacity issue is already a problem and it's getting worse.


Steve....not "high speed rail". Commuter rail to Midwest City, Tinker AFB, and the NE part of Oklahoma City and the Adventure District would use that spur. I imagine regular train service to Tulsa would also use that. Not some pie in the sky dream high speed rail which may or may not ever happen.

----------


## ljbab728

Steve's update on the downtown parking situation.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5124647?embargo=1



> Mark Beffort, perhaps the most respected and influential player in the downtown office market, is looking forward to some relief in the parking shortage as 1,800 new spaces open up from the Arts District to Midtown.
> 
> 
> 
> “If you were to have talked to me this time last year, all of us in the real estate business downtown were a bit stressed about parking,” Beffort said. “Now, where we sit today, we’re all breathing a bit easier. But we still have tremendous pressure as more and more people look to move their offices downtown in addition to the residential activity we are seeing.”

----------


## Teo9969

> Steve's update on the downtown parking situation.
> 
> http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5124647?embargo=1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> ...


I sincerely doubt that the additional residential activity is going to lead to a need for more parking spaces. Initially, maybe yes, especially before the street car is in, but in 5 years, I think the residential activity will be a net help on the parking situation.

----------


## ljbab728

> I sincerely doubt that the additional residential activity is going to lead to a need for more parking spaces. Initially, maybe yes, especially before the street car is in, but in 5 years, I think the residential activity will be a net help on the parking situation.


I think the comment was more in regard to the short term situation and that makes it fairly accurate.

----------


## Teo9969

But even that…It's hard for me to see another time period where the additional residential activity will bring in extraneous vehicles except for after work hours when non-downtown people are visiting friends. Construction workers, maybe?

----------


## Pete

Retail / restaurants / bars have much bigger impact on parking than residents.

Imagine when Fassler Hall & Dust Bowl opens, along with Bleu Garten, Broadway 10 and everything else that is happening along 10th.

And we are getting to the point in Deep Deuce where we have a real critical mass of bars and restaurants with at least a couple more to come, and at the same time most the vacant lots are being developed.

But there are a few residential projects that use existing structured parking:  Park Harvey and The Montgomery leap to mind.  But I'm not aware of any of the residential projects underway or planned that aren't providing their own parking.

----------


## Pete

One of the things not mentioned in that article is that the Oklahoman moving into the Century Center will displace hundreds of current parkers there, as they negotiated a deal that guaranteed them spots when the garage was already full.

And even though Crowe & Dunlevy are moving to the SandRidge garage, Continental will fill the space they are vacating instantly and also take the same number of spaces at  Santa Fe.

----------


## catch22

I appreciate Beffort's efforts in getting downtown office space leased, but why hasn't he pursued any parking garage construction of his own other than the expansion of the City Center East Garage? If it is effecting his ability to lease office space, why hasn't he grouped together with other investors to construct his own garage instead of relying on the city-funded arts district garage?

----------


## Steve

> One of the things not mentioned in that article is that the Oklahoman moving into the Century Center will displace hundreds of current parkers there, as they negotiated a deal that guaranteed them spots when the garage was already full.
> 
> And even though Crowe & Dunlevy are moving to the SandRidge garage, Continental will fill the space they are vacating instantly and also take the same number of spaces at  Santa Fe.


When the deal was signed, it provided The Oklahoman with about half of the spaces needed - spaces that were being moved to the new garage space, and the other half of the spaces were to be remote parking south of the Myriad Gardens. With the pending departure of the IRS and other federal agencies from the building across the street and shift of Crowe Dunlevy to the Broadway Kerr garage, I do not know if the remote spaces will still be necessary or not. The Karchmer garage, as I understand it, will include spaces for Continental's growing workforce.

----------


## Pete

The IRS will not be gone before the Oklahoman and other tenants move into the Century Center.  The IRS hasn't even found a new location, let alone negotiated, had the space built-out etc.  I know this first hand.  And anyway, their space will be immediately snapped up so there won't be any change in parking demand.

I wonder if SandRidge has any more capacity in their garage after Crow & Dunlevy move in?  Otherwise, I don't know were tenants at the Parkside are going to park.  

If you take into consideration all the garages under construction vs. all the office space soon to be filled (like Dowell Center and First National) there is still going to be a net increase in parking demand vs. supply.

Plus, we've got the convention center parking completely unresolved.

----------


## Steve

> The IRS will not be gone before the Oklahoman and other tenants move into the Century Center.  The IRS hasn't even found a new location, let alone negotiated, had the space built-out etc.  I know this first hand.  And anyway, their space will be immediately snapped up so there won't be any change in parking demand.
> 
> I wonder if SandRidge has any more capacity in their garage after Crow & Dunlevy move in?  Otherwise, I don't know were tenants at the Parkside are going to park.  
> 
> If you take into consideration all the garages under construction vs. all the office space soon to be filled (like Dowell Center and First National) there is still going to be a net increase in parking demand vs. supply.
> 
> Plus, we've got the convention center parking completely unresolved.


Pete, I'm just providing what I know - that The Oklahoman was and may still be having to park a significant number of its employees south of the Myriad Gardens until the extra garage space is finished and spaces are shifted around. I'm not looking to get into a debate with you.

----------


## Pete

^

Didn't mean to debate at all -- sorry if it came across that way.

Just providing info. at my disposal.

----------


## Steve

> ^
> 
> Didn't mean to debate at all -- sorry if it came across that way.
> 
> Just providing info. at my disposal.


Nor am I wishing to get into a debate. I just wanted to clarify that The Oklahoman was not getting to park all of its employees at Century Center until spaces were made available through the relocation of people from other buildings to the expanded City Center garage and new Arts District garage. Your original post indicated I had left out of my story that hundreds were being displaced to make way for Oklahoman employees so they could all park at Century Center garage.
I understand there is a lot of confusion out there, so I went ahead and posted what I know.

----------


## Teo9969

> Retail / restaurants / bars have much bigger impact on parking than residents.
> 
> Imagine when Fassler Hall & Dust Bowl opens, along with Bleu Garten, Broadway 10 and everything else that is happening along 10th.
> 
> And we are getting to the point in Deep Deuce where we have a real critical mass of bars and restaurants with at least a couple more to come, and at the same time most the vacant lots are being developed.
> 
> But there are a few residential projects that use existing structured parking:  Park Harvey and The Montgomery leap to mind.  But I'm not aware of any of the residential projects underway or planned that aren't providing their own parking.


But isn't the vast majority of the Retail/Restaurant/Bar inflow going to happen after most of the DT workforce has already vacated?

To be honest, I doubt downtown is ever going to have TOO much parking. I just wonder that if we overstate the immediate need of something, whether or not we might hastily build out infrastructure that is not essential at the cost of something that could immediately be far more beneficial than making parking easier.

I really don't know all the parking garages in the CBD, which is clearly the main concernI don't think we should yet be too terribly worried about parking in the other districts until we have a better grasp of how the new housing/mixed-use developments affects the situation. I think in the CBD there are like 10 garages with a total capacity upward of 7500. I think a push toward 10,000 would be good.

I'd really really really like to see the city push for a rather massive garage in West Bricktown, in addition to the Kachmer. I'd like to see a push for a 1,500 to 2,500 space garage for the SW corner of Reno and Oklahoma. That's essentially right by the transit station, would aid in the retooling of Lower Bricktown, and most importantly, would free up the need to rebuild massive amounts of parking when we redo the Cox site (Would love to see the parking on that super block at least halved if not completely gone).

I'd guess it'd be about 10 to 15 storiesput residential on top of THAT building and it would sell like hot-cakes.

----------


## hoya

Parking was awful Saturday evening.  The Michael Buble concert and the Redhawks game were both going on, and there wasn't a spot to be had anywhere.  People were parking on the grass in Deep Deuce.  As more things happen downtown on the same nights, we'll have this problem more and more.  From one perspective, it's a good problem to have.  But we need either more parking or we need to get mass transit operational soon.

Imagine if we had a concert, a Redhawks game, a big convention, and a Wolf Creek Lodge as well.  We want the kind of city where our downtown is bustling with activity almost every night.  We just don't have the transportation infrastructure to support everything right now.  The Bass Pro parking lot should be turned into a giant garage.  It's on the edge of Bricktown, and so would limit traffic that was coming through the district.  People could come in and out from Lincoln and Reno to the east.  They wouldn't have to drive through Bricktown and so they could get in and out faster.  A garage on the SW corner of Reno and Oklahoma (right in front of the U-Haul building) could provide parking for downtown employees, but Bricktown visitors would be funnelled through a busier part of the city where people are frequently walking.

----------


## Richard at Remax

Ive always said the north and south lots at bass pro should be converted into retail, parking garage, and maybe housing on top. but keep the stream/river flowing through it. or just extend the canal. if done right could be nice.

----------


## Bullbear

I made the mistake of saying.. Oh lets go eat in bricktown Sat night. well I quickly retreated.. the parking was horrible people were even parking south of Harkins in the dirt where old I40 once was. there were 3 lines of parking in that grassy/Dirt area.  considering Michael Buble was a small concert only using 1/2 the arena and sold right at 8 thousand tickets so it could have been even worse.

----------


## shawnw

You forgot about Reggae Fest.

Also I noticed Sunday night (during the free park concert) people took to parallel parking along Sheridan even though there are no parking signs...

----------


## shawnw

It will get worse before it gets better since the East Crosstown is coming along and that grassy area on private property/ROW won't continue to exist for parking purposes before there is an alternative...

Saturday was a night I was particularly glad to have walked to Bricktown from home...

----------


## Bullbear

It's kind of a long Walk from Crestwood. but I said to my partner.. SEE This is where a streetcar into Bricktown would help out!

----------


## Richard at Remax

I ate up at Vast on Saturday night and it looked like a parking nightmare from up there. but it was cool to see bricktown and downtown packed full of people

----------


## shawnw

The walk is long, but the biking is not...

----------


## catch22

I went to Redhawks game on Saturday. I parked on the street over by La Luna. Wasn't bad at all of you don't mind walking (I don't)

----------


## Anonymous.

> I went to Redhawks game on Saturday. I parked on the street over by La Luna. Wasn't bad at all of you don't mind walking (I don't)



This. There is parking available on the skirts of activity. It is the inconvenience factor that is the issue. People want to walk a block or less. Only way to break this greedy mindset is to have nights like Saturday. 

Sometimes the only way to show people the problem.... is to hand them a mirror.

----------


## shawnw

Agree, catch, was referring to the walk from Crestwood though...  my walk and/or ride to anywhere downtown is always pleasant and manageable.

----------


## Teo9969

Yeah, I hope that a handful of nights, or even a few months worth of nights are not going to spring us into trying to build parking we only rarely get use out of.

[Hyperbole]The worst way to use land in the history of the world has been to give adequate parking such that the only time it is at 100%+ occupancy is 5 days for christmas shopping.[/Hyperbole] Ever counted how many spaces are at the average Walgreens and CVS and thought "Why the hell are there 35 spaces for this building?" 

The street car will legitimately alleviate some of those issues, but more so than that, We can't be building things downtown that will be fully utilized a handful of days out of the year. That's why massive garage in West Bricktown make more sense than anything: It can serve the CBD during the day and Bricktown at night. 

Especially, people need to learn that it's okay to park a bit of a ways away and walk 5 to 10 blocks.

----------


## catch22

I disagree Teo. People need to not just know it's okay, but that it is expected of them to participate in the street life.

If you want to go downtown, be prepared for the fact that you will walk 5-10 blocks. Of you score a closer spot. Win. But don't go with the expectation.

I usually park in the same area (Film Row area) and usually can walk to Bricktown faster than someone circling a parking lot in Lower Bricktown for 10 minutes. Plus I get to see a lot of cool things and pretty people on the walk over.

----------


## Bellaboo

I have a parking pass for every home Thunder game in the Santa Fe Garage. Unless there is inclement weather, I park just west of the MBG. I get home 10 minutes faster that way, and it's a shorter and much nicer walk cutting through the park.

----------


## Bullbear

I do the same thing for Thunder games. I have Santa Fe parking but its faster to park on the street by La-Luna or just south of there or closer to film row. I get home much quicker.

----------


## Teo9969

> I disagree Teo. People need to not just know it's okay, but that it is expected of them to participate in the street life.
> 
> If you want to go downtown, be prepared for the fact that you will walk 5-10 blocks. Of you score a closer spot. Win. But don't go with the expectation.
> 
> I usually park in the same area (Film Row area) and usually can walk to Bricktown faster than someone circling a parking lot in Lower Bricktown for 10 minutes. Plus I get to see a lot of cool things and pretty people on the walk over.


That doesn't mean we can totally disregard the need for parking though. Someday in the foreseeable future, there will be many weeknights where every area of downtown is going to see plenty of activity and every single weekend is going to be packed such that, you won't be able to park anywhere downtown to be able to get to events/attractions downtown. 

The closest thing OKC has had to a large entertainment district in the last 20 years is Memorial road nearly all of downtown is going to become that for OKC in the next 10 years, and we have to be aware that demand is going to reach a point where Downtown is significantly busier at 10PM than it will be at 10AM. Now maybe there's a chance that the garages in the CBD, which I don't think will ever be busy past 6PM will be able to shoulder that load such that if you want to go to Fassler Hall you'll have to park in the garage near the court house and do the rest of the journey via foot.

----------


## catch22

I actually agree with you, I was being facetious in saying I disagreed.

----------


## shawnw

I wonder if we can get funding for "Your Streetlife Responsibilties" signs to post on every block via MAPS4 funds  :-)

I'd vote for it!

----------


## Pete

> I was frankly surprised to see the 10th street garage get such approval. It's not progressive and will just need to be torn down later. Spend our money on subsidizing below ground.


But in that case, it was specifically constructed to service three historic buildings (Buick, Pontiac and Marion) where parking couldn't be incorporated.

In fact, it is physically connected to the Buick Building.

----------


## Pete

Right, there should have been more thought given to the street level instead of just leaving it all parking.

It will be very interesting to see if the Main Street Garage will be able to fill their street-level storefronts.  I suspect it will be office use at the outset.

----------


## shawnw

Agree with you Sid but that doesn't always solve the issue. Look at Devon, they built their own parking and it wasn't enough, having to build more. Same issue with the building I live in. There aren't enough spots for how many people have cars, so there's a waiting list. If you don't already have a spot you've got to find your own elsewhere downtown... which is expensive I can attest!

----------


## shawnw

Thanks for the clarification. I like it.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Embark will be assessing the parking situation in  DTOKC.




> OKLAHOMA CITY  EMBARK is asking the public for input on future parking needs for downtown Oklahoma City.
> 
> Officials say EMBARK wants to hear from Oklahoma City residents on parking needs for the citys urban core, including the City Center, Automobile Alley, Arts District, Deep Deuce, Bricktown and Midtown districts.
> 
> Since March, a firm, Kimley-Horn, and EMBARK, have been working together to develop a plan for parking in the downtown area.
> 
> A series of open houses will take place Tuesday and Wednesday at the following places and times:
> 
> Bricktown and Deep Deuce
> ...


- https://kfor.com/2019/09/04/embark-a...parking-needs/

----------


## Pete

The city commissioned research consultants Kimley-Horn to perform a downtown parking study:













*PRIMARY RECOMMENDATIONS:*

----------


## Pete

^

This does not include the following projects under construction or planned:

1. Convention Center garage (1,100 spaces)
2. First Nation Center (700 spaces)
3. Large surface lot to the south of the new convention center
4. Karmer Garage (Main Street just east of the tracks) - hundreds of spaces

----------


## PaddyShack

So will we be losing the free evening and weekend parking? I got to say I would rather pay the city for parking than private entities... If I have to pay for parking that is. But I really think we need to have other options of getting downtown before they implement any more paid parking. Currently my only option is to drive and park downtown if I want to go, I don't have a bus or train from Yukon.

----------


## Pete

I noticed they have made the parking on the west side of Scissortail Park pay-to-park.

----------


## GoGators

I cant believe the city actually paid a company to come to the conclusion that there is way to many parking spaces in the core. I could have told them that for free  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## kukblue1

I always street park for Thunder Games usually by the Gardens and around 5.  I'll go out to eat before hand.  Back in the day when you had to put a sticker on your car. 90% of the people parked on the street had no stickers.  Even now I'll get there about 5:30 and to be safe I'll sit in my car a bit to see if anyone comes around and nope.  Everyone that parking isn't paying and with how full those spots are around 5 I know people have to be getting there early.   Also even though it has gotten better parking in the front of the Fire Hydrant happen almost every game.  This year however I have only seen it twice.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> So will we be losing the free evening and weekend parking? I got to say I would rather pay the city for parking than private entities... If I have to pay for parking that is. But I really think we need to have other options of getting downtown before they implement any more paid parking. Currently my only option is to drive and park downtown if I want to go, I don't have a bus or train from Yukon.


It looks like that is only mentioned for Bricktown.

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

Was there any mention of the new parking meters, those in which you enter your license plate, estimated parking time and payment? I miss the simplicity of the older coin meters, but perhaps these newer meters are cost-effective overall.

----------


## Anonymous.

> I always street park for Thunder Games usually by the Gardens and around 5.  I'll go out to eat before hand.  Back in the day when you had to put a sticker on your car. 90% of the people parked on the street had no stickers.  Even now I'll get there about 5:30 and to be safe I'll sit in my car a bit to see if anyone comes around and nope.  Everyone that parking isn't paying and with how full those spots are around 5 I know people have to be getting there early.   Also even though it has gotten better parking in the front of the Fire Hydrant happen almost every game.  This year however I have only seen it twice.


I have never once seen someone getting a ticket post 5pm. In fact, I am not even sure the meter maid's shifts go to 6pm like the enforcement conclusion states. I feel like making enforcement to 6pm is just an easy money grab for that extra hour.

----------


## cappa

I guess I am missing something - I don't understand why they are suggesting paid parking be implemented in Midtown and Auto Alley. The free and accessible parking is a large reason I frequent the areas. Not sure how marketing, wayfinding, or vacancy is improved by paid parking.

----------


## DowntownMan

Speaking of parking

There is a silver Hyundai that parks on Main Street between broadway and Gaylord everyday and gets at least one or more tickets daily and weve been watching it at the office for about 6 months or longer occur. She parks and then walks into the Bancfirst Tower. We are baffled at why someone would do this and rack up so many parking tickets. 

When there is so much available parking within the same walking distance of parking on the street each day to get a ticket.

----------


## AP

I'm always amazed at how many people genuinely think parking tickets don't mean anything.

----------


## Roger S

> We are baffled at why someone would do this and rack up so many parking tickets.


Maybe she has a need for attention and this is how she gets it?

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

> There is a silver Hyundai that parks on Main Street between broadway and Gaylord everyday and gets at least one or more tickets daily and we’ve been watching it at the office for about 6 months or longer occur. She parks and then walks into the Bancfirst Tower. We are baffled at why someone would do this and rack up so many parking tickets.


Is it Judge Kendra Coleman? She has a long history of parking & traffic tickets, and according to this, still thinks that rules don't apply to her. https://oklahoman.com/article/565457...ice-over-debts

----------


## dankrutka

> So will we be losing the free evening and weekend parking? I got to say I would rather pay the city for parking than private entities... If I have to pay for parking that is. But I really think we need to have other options of getting downtown before they implement any more paid parking. Currently my only option is to drive and park downtown if I want to go, I don't have a bus or train from Yukon.


There is free parking available if you're willing to enjoy a nice walk. I never pay for parking when I come to this area. I usually park over by the Hill and walk to Bricktown, Chesapeake, wherever.

----------


## dankrutka

So, this study makes it clear: THERE IS WAAAAAYYYYY TOO MUCH PARKING IN THE CORE. The parking which is built is underutilized. Overbuilding parking also hurts other forms of transportation: walking, biking, streetcar, buses. Of course, I fully expect every business to continue demanding parking garages be built next to their door so no one has to experience the pain of using their legs to walk more than 10 feet. 

People in OKC will have to adapt. In the suburbs, you get to park in front of your destination. In urban areas, you park within the vicinity. If you try to make it otherwise, you damage the area, but the benefits are a far more vibrant, communal, and serendipitous experience.

----------


## Jersey Boss

The study makes no mention of the sufficiency of handicap parking spaces in any area. Why are those drivers needs not being addressed?  Or is the core only for those without physical limitations? Not everybody is able to bike or enjoy a nice walk. OKC is deficient for those wherever construction is present.

----------


## OKC Guy

Have not read all comments.  But think before we declare too much parking we need to wait until OMNI, Convention Center and Scizzors Park are open to see how that might impact parking spaces.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The study makes no mention of the sufficiency of handicap parking spaces in any area. Why are those drivers needs not being addressed?  Or is the core only for those without physical limitations? Not everybody is able to bike or enjoy a nice walk. OKC is deficient for those wherever construction is present.


Yet disabled people in NYC, LA, Chicago etc are able to do it somehow.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> Yet disabled people in NYC, LA, Chicago etc are able to do it somehow.


Yet we are talking OKC here. The parking study made no mention of those cities in comparison.

----------


## GoGators

> Have not read all comments.  But think before we declare too much parking we need to wait until OMNI, Convention Center and Scizzors Park are open to see how that might impact parking spaces.


The Omni and Convention Center are bringing 1100 additional parking spaces with them to opening. If anything it’s going to make the glut of downtown parking even worse than it already is. 

Hopefully this study shines a light on how unnecessary and ridiculous building a surface parking lot to cram 70 more cars in front of Chesapeake Arena is.

----------


## OKC Guy

> The Omni and Convention Center are bringing 1100 additional parking spaces with them to opening. If anything it’s going to make the glut of downtown parking even worse than it already is. 
> 
> Hopefully this study shines a light on how unnecessary and ridiculous building a surface parking lot to cram 70 more cars in front of Chesapeake Arena is.


We do not yet know for fact how many spots will be needed.  Plus the park.  Just workers at OMNI/CC will need parking then guests and plus we have much shopping at OMNI as well.

Lets wait and see.

----------


## shawnw

Just as they do now during the arts festival (people complain about parking even though the arts garage is very close and largely empty at that time), people will continue to gripe about lack of parking around Scissortail, and there might be 500+ spots at the convention garage at the time of their gripe. I guarantee this will happen, as it already does in very similar scenarios.

----------


## GoGators

> *We do not yet know for fact how many spots will be needed.*  Plus the park.  Just workers at OMNI/CC will need parking then guests and plus we have much shopping at OMNI as well.
> 
> Lets wait and see.


We dont know how many spots will be needed, but we dont have to wait and see to know that it wont be anywhere close to the ~24,000 that currently exist downtown unused during peak hours.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Yet we are talking OKC here. The parking study made no mention of those cities in comparison.


I’m just saying there are ways to have ADA compliant cities that are accessible to those with disabilities without needing a parking space 10 feet from every store or destination.

----------


## OKC Guy

> We dont know how many spots will be needed, but we dont have to wait and see to know that it wont be anywhere close to the ~24,000 that currently exist downtown unused during peak hours.


Out of downtowners are not gonna park 2 blocks away to shop at OMNI shops.  And elsewhere.  Regardless what some want to think thats just reality.  That parking you mention is spread out.

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## GoGators

> Out of downtowners are not gonna park 2 blocks away to shop at OMNI shops.  And elsewhere.  Regardless what some want to think thats just reality.  That parking you mention is spread out.


The streetcar will let you park at any of the lots mentioned and drop you off right at the front entrance. 24,000 open parking spots with almost zero walking . An out of downtowners dream come true. 

Only in OKC would 24,000 unused parking spaces not be considered enough.

----------


## Edmond Hausfrau

> The streetcar will let you park at any of the lots mentioned and drop you off right at the front entrance.


Which brings us back to, the streetcar should be free.

----------


## OKC Guy

> The streetcar will let you park at any of the lots mentioned and drop you off right at the front entrance. 24,000 open parking spots with almost zero walking . An out of downtowner’s dream come true. 
> 
> Only in OKC would 24,000 unused parking spaces not be considered enough.


It depends where you park.  SC is a circular so if the lots are full upstream of event you have to take a long trip around.  And inverse is if you happen to get parked upstream then after event you have to ride it almost a full circuit to get back to car.  You have to think in terms of out of downtowners.  To shop at OMNI shops they are not gonna do this.  Park in a lot/garage and pay.  Pay SC to ride it full circuit either before or after you shop.  The SC is not friendly to people who drive to downtown.  People like to park close to where they are going.  

Now, if we had a bunch of micro buses running routes all over downtown it would be much easier plus buses can added in peak times plus can adjust route.  In my SC scenario you also have to hope it doesn’t get stopped for a spell due to problems ahead.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Which brings us back to, the streetcar should be free.


i disagree it should absolutely NOT be free.




> The streetcar will let you park at any of the lots mentioned and drop you off right at the front entrance. 24,000 open parking spots with almost zero walking . An out of downtowner’s dream come true. 
> 
> Only in OKC would 24,000 unused parking spaces not be considered enough.


The streetcar is also incredibly slow

----------


## PaddyShack

> There is free parking available if you're willing to enjoy a nice walk. I never pay for parking when I come to this area. I usually park over by the Hill and walk to Bricktown, Chesapeake, wherever.


Oh I don't mind parking and walking. I am worried about my current free parking area being turned into paid regardless of my walk. My preferred parking option is not in Bricktown and I probably mistook the information about changes to parking meters being only in Bricktown. I like to park on the west side of downtown and then either catch the street car for Bricktown or just walk to our destination.

----------


## foodiefan

> Just as they do now during the arts festival (people complain about parking even though the arts garage is very close and largely empty at that time), people will continue to gripe about lack of parking around Scissortail, and there might be 500+ spots at the convention garage at the time of their gripe. I guarantee this will happen, as it already does in very similar scenarios.


. . my only complaint about the Arts Garage is when they up the charge at major events to a flat $10.00 regardless of how long you park. . i.e. Arts Festival.    $10  even if you only want to pop in for lunch and a short stroll.

----------


## Anonymous.

> i disagree it should absolutely NOT be free.


This is the first of this take I have heard. Can you please go voice this in the SC thread and explain your theory?

Thank you,

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> I guess I am missing something - I don't understand why they are suggesting paid parking be implemented in Midtown and Auto Alley. The free and accessible parking is a large reason I frequent the areas. Not sure how marketing, wayfinding, or vacancy is improved by paid parking.


I read on the Oklahoman that the presentation to City Council mentioned that many prime, street parking spots in the Auto Alley area are being used by people who stay 6 or more hours at a time. I'm guessing the inference is that employees of those businesses are taking the best, closest spots, and paid parking in those areas should be an incentive for them to park farther away.

----------


## GoGators

> It depends where you park.  SC is a circular so if the lots are full upstream of event you have to take a long trip around.  And inverse is if you happen to get parked upstream then after event you have to ride it almost a full circuit to get back to car.  You have to think in terms of out of downtowners.  To shop at OMNI shops they are not gonna do this.  Park in a lot/garage and pay.  Pay SC to ride it full circuit either before or after you shop.  The SC is not friendly to people who drive to downtown.  People like to park close to where they are going.  
> 
> Now, if we had a bunch of micro buses running routes all over downtown it would be much easier plus buses can added in peak times plus can adjust route.  In my SC scenario you also have to hope it doesnt get stopped for a spell due to problems ahead.


So are you saying we need more parking downtown? Or are you saying each business needs its own parking lot in front? 

Im having a hard time understanding what specific point youre making.

----------


## OKC Guy

> So are you saying we need more parking downtown? Or are you saying each business needs it’s own parking lot in front? 
> 
> I’m having a hard time understanding what specific point you’re making.


I was responding to those who said we had too much parking.  If you go back and read I said it would be wise to table any talk of ridding spaces until after OMNI/CC/Park are all fully open and functioning.

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## Plutonic Panda

Too much is a good thing when you compare it to not having enough parking. Me and I think most people would choose the former. That said the parking culture in OKC where people want a spot right in front of their business is real. 

I have relatives that live within 4-5 houses of each other in a suburban area with sidewalks and yet they will drive to each other’s houses. It’s really bizarre. I doubt that is caused due to over abundance of parking spaces. But the idea of having parking spaces in front of everywhere you want to go is absurd yes. People should walk a bit more.

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## dankrutka

> Yet disabled people in NYC, LA, Chicago etc are able to do it somehow.


Yeah, they have dramatically more accessible and walkable Street design. OKC has so many gaps and inaccessible areas. But I agree with your premise that OKC should be designed as well as those cities.

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## dankrutka

> I was responding to those who said we had too much parking.  If you go back and read I said it would be wise to table any talk of ridding spaces until after OMNI/CC/Park are all fully open and functioning.


Aside that they’re overbuilding parking for those places too, there is such a dramatic over abundance of parking throughout the core that it really is not relevant. People aren’t parking in the parking district and walking to the Convention Center anyway. Parking needs to be cut everywhere.

----------


## OKC Guy

> Aside that they’re overbuilding parking for those places too, there is such a dramatic over abundance of parking throughout the core that it really is not relevant. People aren’t parking in the parking district and walking to the Convention Center anyway. Parking needs to be cut everywhere.


Try finding spots during lunch its impossible

Cutting parking will cut business

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Try finding spots during lunch its impossible
> 
> Cutting parking will cut business


Personally, I have had no issues finding a parking spot in OKC EVER. During thunder games, lunch, dinner, arts festival, or anytime. Granted that doesn’t mean parking right in front of my destination.

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## GoGators

> Try finding spots during lunch its impossible
> 
> Cutting parking will cut business


Empty parking spots don’t go shopping.

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## Dob Hooligan

I recall that the consultant told the City Council that too little parking is crippling to urban growth. Urban Renewal operated with that principle, and that is a big part of why we have so many parking areas now. A surface lot might be unattractive, but it is relatively low cost to install and easily removed when a better and higher use is found for the property.

----------


## GoGators

> I recall that the consultant told the City Council that too little parking is crippling to urban growth. Urban Renewal operated with that principle, and that is a big part of why we have so many parking areas now. A surface lot might be unattractive, but it is relatively low cost to install and easily removed when a better and higher use is found for the property.


If the amount of parking had any correlation with urban growth, okc would look like Manhattan at this point. I hope this was said by a consultant to the council 30 years ago and we’ve since moved on from this antiquated way of thinking.

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## dankrutka

How does any business in NYC ever sell anything without billions of parking spots? This logic is lol. Parking is what fragments the urban core and results in less people on the streets. There is way way way too much parking the core. You need to look harder if you can’t find it. It’s there.

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## Dob Hooligan

Please help me understand what the problem is with abundant surface parking today? I think the reality is that Urban Renewal left us with much vacant land that still has not been developed, and surface parking is better than a dirt or scrub brush lot. Market growth will fill much of that land with buildings. Surface parking is not hindering growth, IMO.

Large scale developers want to control parking cost in our market. BancFirst and Continental Resources are buying the Santa Fe Garage because they want to know how many spaces they have guaranteed for their employees and visitors through the life span of their buildings.

----------


## Jersey Boss

I would be curious as to parking downtown in cities such as Louisville. SLC, or Indianapolis.

----------


## Rover

> How does any business in NYC ever sell anything without billions of parking spots? This logic is lol. Parking is what fragments the urban core and results in less people on the streets. There is way way way too much parking the core. You need to look harder if you cant find it. Its there.


So, it would probably surprise you to know there are over 5 MILLION parking spaces in New York City. They have an incredible number of cars on the streets. NYC is very car saturated.

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## GoGators

> So, it would probably surprise you to know there are over 5 MILLION parking spaces in New York City. They have an incredible number of cars on the streets. NYC is very car saturated.


5 million parking spaces for a population of 8.6 million. Let’s keep things in context. Most OKC residents would call for martial law with a ratio like that. I think there’s almost that many spots in Chisholm Creek alone.

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## Plutonic Panda

> 5 million parking spaces for a population of 8.6 million. Let’s keep things in context. Most OKC residents would call for martial law with a ratio like that. I think there’s almost that many spots in Chisholm Creek alone.


Lets also not forget the daytime population of Manhattan alone is 4+ million people. The CMSA+ 
is 20 million. Some parking spaces are 400 a month and around $5 a day. Rovers comments are out of perspective.

----------


## Rover

> Lets also not forget the daytime population of Manhattan alone is 4+ million people. The CMSA+ 
> is 20 million. Some parking spaces are 400 a month and around $5 a day. Rovers comments are out of perspective.


Over 3 mil on street and free Parking in NYC.
People who go to NYC know how important cars are in NYC.

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## Rover

How many total parking spaces are in OKC?

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## BBatesokc

People can say what they want and attribute it to perception or whatever, but I've personally known of a few businesses that either relocated to a different downtown location or moved out of downtown altogether because of the lack of or cost of convenient parking. Not saying there isn't any parking (there is), just saying there's a big difference between the existence of parking spaces and the perceived convenience and cost of parking and there is a lot of office vacancy downtown.

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## GoGators

> How many total parking spaces are in OKC?


I can’t find an exact number but I would estimate easily around the 3 million range. There was a study in 5 cities and it found Des Moines had approx 1.6million parking spaces. With a land area of only 82 sq miles and population of only 217k, it’s not hard to imagine okc having 3 million or more spaces in its sprawling 621 sq mile city limits. That’s probably an underestimation.

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## kukblue1

Living over an hour from Chicago for 40 years you learned to take the train into town.  Parking was expensive or impossible.  Every try to park for a cubs game?  You park at a college about 3 miles away and you take the shuttle if you wanted to drive or you took the train.

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## OKC Guy

> How does any business in NYC ever sell anything without billions of parking spots? This logic is lol. Parking is what fragments the urban core and results in less people on the streets. There is way way way too much parking the core. You need to look harder if you can’t find it. It’s there.


Why do people want OKC to be other cities?  It would be easier if those who don’t like our way of life to move to these other utopias.  I never understand why folks keep comparing us to other cities.  I like our way of life here and don’t need to be some other city.  There is nothing wrong with being unique vs a clone city.

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## GoGators

> Why do people want OKC to be other cities?  It would be easier if those who don’t like our way of life to move to these other utopias.  I never understand why folks keep comparing us to other cities.  I like our way of life here and don’t need to be some other city.  There is nothing wrong with being unique vs a clone city.


So if I want my city to thrive and become a better place to live I should move? What kind of logic is that? It’s a good thing people didn’t do that in the 80s...

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## Plutonic Panda

> Over 3 mil on street and free Parking in NYC.
> People who go to NYC know how important cars are in NYC.


I agree cars are important everywhere. Even in Europe modal share is made up of mostly cars. I’m only saying 7 million parking spaces in NYC isn’t that much. They need more parking in NYC and especially downtown LA.

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## Dob Hooligan

Let's get back to downtown parking. What is a better immediate use for these areas? 

Many of them are like NW13th and Robinson, which was 1930s strip shopping that wound up housing Brown's Bakery for many years. In the 1990s Bob Moore bought it and removed the structures in order to gain more parking for their dealership at 13th and Broadway. 20 years later the dealership is dirt and the Brown's area is asphalt. Is there a better immediate use for these plots?

My point being that many times surface parking is a better land use as part of the 50 year plan while we wait for the central business district to infill with substantial developments.

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## OKC Guy

> So if I want my city to thrive and become a better place to live I should move? What kind of logic is that? It’s a good thing people didn’t do that in the 80s...


Our downtown “is” thriving who told you otherwise?

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## GoGators

> Our downtown “is” thriving who told you otherwise?


It’s getting better everyday but also has a long way to go. I believe it will get there but not until this antiquated parking mindset changes. No one goes to a city because it has great parking.

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## Plutonic Panda

> No one goes to a city because it has great parking.


No one goes to a city because of its lack of parking either. No one goes to cities because of their mass transit. Amenities are what adds to the pleasant experience. Having plentiful parking is pleasant for me and many others.

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## Edmond Hausfrau

> . No one goes to cities because of their mass transit.


I specifically go to DC, Boston, NYC, Chicago because I can get my work and leisure done via public transportation.
Many persons as they age realize that they won't be able to drive forever and prefer to have excellent mass transit, especially good links to area healthcare centers.

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## Plutonic Panda

^^^ the sole reason you go to those cities is so you can ride around on trains and work? Why not just stay home and work instead of traveling there? I’m not understanding you.

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## GoGators

> No one goes to a city because of its lack of parking either. No one goes to cities because of their mass transit. Amenities are what adds to the pleasant experience. Having plentiful parking is pleasant for me and many others.


I specifically visited the Netherlands because of their world class mass transit and lack of cars and parking. Mass transit and not having to rent a car is a large factor in deciding almost every city I visit. On the other hand I don’t think people are deciding to skip a trip to NYC to take their family to Amarillo because It’s easier to park.

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## Edmond Hausfrau

> ^^^ the sole reason you go to those cities is so you can ride around on trains and work? Why not just stay home and work instead of traveling there? I’m not understanding you.


Because I don't work from home. A lot of selection regarding conference attendance has to do with ease of public transit. GoGators answer above is in line with my thinking.
And yes, I would go to a city or country to ride a train. I'm fascinated by the bullet trains of Japan and hope to make it to that country soon.

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## OKC Guy

> Because I don't work from home. A lot of selection regarding conference attendance has to do with ease of public transit. GoGators answer above is in line with my thinking.
> And yes, I would go to a city or country to ride a train. I'm fascinated by the bullet trains of Japan and hope to make it to that country soon.


Japan has the most efficient trains on earth.  On time and doors shut so you better get on in time.  Hong Kong is cool too.  Ive ridden in both countries.  

In Japan driving a car is a huge responsibility.  If you are in an accident you are at least 25% at fault regardless.  In their system had you not been there the accident would not have happened.  So even if sitting at a light and hit thats 25% your fault.  

One thing about these other countries they have less land area and cities were built mostly before cars.  So their roads are smaller.  America was built with the car and is a young country in the big picture.  Our cities were mostly built with roads/cars.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I specifically visited the Netherlands because of their world class mass transit and lack of cars and parking. Mass transit and not having to rent a car is a large factor in deciding almost every city I visit. On the other hand I don’t think people are deciding to skip a trip to NYC to take their family to Amarillo because It’s easier to park.


Then by this logic there are specially cities I’ve visited to see their road and freeway networks.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Because I don't work from home. A lot of selection regarding conference attendance has to do with ease of public transit. GoGators answer above is in line with my thinking.
> And yes, I would go to a city or country to ride a train. I'm fascinated by the bullet trains of Japan and hope to make it to that country soon.


Okay but the main reason you go is for work not because of their lack of parking or transit systems which is my point.

Though I agree with you on Japan. I love that country and am visiting soon. I love their trains and women. They also have a beautiful road and freeway network and some really cool cars we don’t have in the states along with Tokyo just being something unlike anywhere else from what I’ve heard.

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## GoGators

> Then by this logic there are specially cities I’ve visited to see their road and freeway networks.


Yes, I’m sure the parking lot tour industry is lucrative.

I’ll say it again. No one goes to a city because of great parking.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Yes, I’m sure the parking lot tour industry is lucrative.
> 
> I’ll say it again. No one goes to a city because of great parking.


I’ll say it again. No one goes to a city because of its lack of parking either. These arguments are a false equivalence.

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## dankrutka

It’s not about OKC “being other cities.” It’s about urban parts of OKC abiding by successful urban design principles. I don’t care what the suburbs and outskirts do that much. People in OKC shouldn’t have to move away for an urban experience that is based around car ownership. I’m talking about a geographically small part of the city.

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## shawnw

Does more parking bring more business?
https://www.locallogic.co/blog-post/...-more-business




> What we found was that, in general, the streets with the least parking available actually had the lowest vacancy rates, and vice versa.





> These findings may seem counter-intuitive. But there are a number of reasons why parking may not help retail business, and can even be harmful. For one thing, more parking means more cars, more cars means more traffic, and more traffic generally creates a less pleasant atmosphere. Noise from traffic makes sitting on a summer terrasse less enjoyable. More traffic makes for a more dangerous environment, particularly in the anarchic world of parking lots, as well as broadly for children and those with impaired mobility. Additionally, more parking makes for narrower sidewalks, resulting in the jostling for space that is typical on any Saturday on Rue Sainte-Catherine Ouest. And in terms of charm -- well, we’ve all seen plenty of Montreal’s beautiful commercial streets on postcards, but not too many featuring parking garages.
> 
> Furthermore, research has shown over and over that parking is not critical to retail streets. From 2010 to 2015, Philadelphia removed 3,000 downtown parking spots -- 7% of the total -- and has seen increased retail vibrancy in that period. In New York, the construction of new bike lanes -- using space that could be taken up by parking instead -- corresponded with a 24% increase in retail sales nearby. And on top of this, drivers often spend less per month compared to cyclists and pedestrians -- nearly two-thirds that of pedestrians, according to one British study. As such, incentivizing drivers might just be bad business.


Imagine 3,000 parking spots being 7% of the total downtown.

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## Dob Hooligan

I believe "successful urban design principles" are the largest part of why we have so much parking in the urban core today. Urban Renewal made a large amount of land bare, and responsible economic growth has still not filled it 50 years later.  I submit that surface parking is an acceptable use of much of this land until the developments come along that will occupy the space for the 100 plus years their prime location will demand. 

Upthread there is praise for cities that have good public transportation, and I think it is suggested they are superior to OKC because of that. I think the reality is they are cities that are at least 100 years older than OKC and they were built out before cars became plentiful and cheap. All the cities listed are there because of their access to the most economical transportation of the era they were built in, which was water. First was ocean ports, then navigable rivers. The 19th century brought the railways and the 20th brought the automobile. 

OKC is car centric because it is a 20th century city. Much as Las Vegas, Phoenix, SoCal and other areas of the West.

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## shawnw

Except it wasn't car centric before 1947 and had a robust transit system where, not only could you get all the way up to 63rd at the time, but you could get to Guthrie, Norman, El Reno, etc.

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## Jersey Boss

^ Doubt it will return to being horse centric. In all seriousness though, prior to 47 most households were single wage earner. The population in this era did not have a significant number of females in the work force that were married and working outside the home. Nor was there a significant part of the female population >21 that was single. As far as teens having cars, not so much. You can't compare the transportation needs of OKC pre 1947 to today.

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## shawnw

That was not my intent. I was simply saying that it was not always car centric.

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## GoGators

> I believe "successful urban design principles" are the largest part of why we have so much parking in the urban core today. Urban Renewal made a large amount of land bare, and responsible economic growth has still not filled it 50 years later.  I submit that surface parking is an acceptable use of much of this land until the developments come along that will occupy the space for the 100 plus years their prime location will demand. 
> 
> Upthread there is praise for cities that have good public transportation, and I think it is suggested they are superior to OKC because of that. I think the reality is they are cities that are at least 100 years older than OKC and they were built out before cars became plentiful and cheap. All the cities listed are there because of their access to the most economical transportation of the era they were built in, which was water. First was ocean ports, then navigable rivers. The 19th century brought the railways and the 20th brought the automobile. 
> 
> OKC is car centric because it is a 20th century city. Much as Las Vegas, Phoenix, SoCal and other areas of the West.


This is about 23,000 empty spaces in downtown being terrible for the health of the city. I don’t care if okc was built in 1400 or 2020. That statement remains true.

No one is saying parking lots should be banned. Just that 23,000 spaces that are literally never used is problematic for a city center. How anyone could argue that statement is baffling.

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## Dob Hooligan

> This is about 23,000 empty spaces in downtown being terrible for the health of the city. I don’t care if okc was built in 1400 or 2020. That statement remains true.
> 
> No one is saying parking lots should be banned. Just that 23,000 spaces that are literally never used is problematic for a city center. How anyone could argue that statement is baffling.


I am not minimizing or discounting your statistic, but what is your solution?  My honest question is what is economically viable today, and does not sell out the future, as a replacement for those spaces?

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## OKC Guy

> It’s not about OKC “being other cities.” It’s about urban parts of OKC abiding by successful urban design principles. I don’t care what the suburbs and outskirts do that much. People in OKC shouldn’t have to move away for an urban experience that is based around car ownership. I’m talking about a geographically small part of the city.


The flaw in your argument is a majority of MAPS taxes comes from outside downtown.  All citizens have input not just downtowners.  Your argument is no one else matters except downtowners.

I think we have a thriving city with a great downtown.  Parking spots allow non downtowners to come and enjoy all the MAPS projects.

Like another poster said there is not an overabundance of building demand to shut down parking spots.  And small businesses rely on parking spots to generate extra revenue which can make just enough difference.

Outside of downtown the biggest complaint I hear is not enough parking.  Regardless if its true or not its their perception.  And a lot of people outside of downtown have made cars their #2 expense and want to park close to their cars.  Some have fears of walking far downtown.  I think its unfounded but people think this.  

There is no reason to eliminate spots and lets see how it does once all 3 new venues are open year.

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## GoGators

> I am not minimizing or discounting your statistic, but what is your solution?  My honest question is what is economically viable today, and does not sell out the future, as a replacement for those spaces?


First, I would eliminate on street parking and make way for protected bike lanes, pedestrians, and parklets. Getting rid of the parallel spots along the street car line eliminates the possibility of it being blocked by cars anyway. This would be a small step the city could do tomorrow. Not much the city could do with private lots that are already there. I wouldn’t allow any further demo permits for surface lot construction within the core. Plus if possible, The city should put pressure on these private property parking owners to keep up with current landscaping requirements that go along with new construction. Finally, I would actually enforce the city ordinance of allowing people to park only on specific hard surfaces. Any lot that includes gravel, grass, etc. would be fined until shut down. That’s where I would start.

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## Ross MacLochness

> No one goes to a city because of its lack of parking either. No one goes to cities because of their mass transit. .


I go to cities specifically for those reasons.

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## HangryHippo

> I go to cities specifically for those reasons.


As do I.

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## Plutonic Panda

Lol I’m not buying it. Maybe that is one of the reasons but it isn’t the main reason. You go to cities because of the city. That would be like saying “oh I went to NYC specifically to ride the subways and everything else like the historic landmarks were second.” Perhaps you two are missing my point or I’m not explaining it. 

But saying “no one visits a city because of its parking” is a false equivalency.

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## Dob Hooligan

> First, I would eliminate on street parking and make way for protected bike lanes, pedestrians, and parklets. Getting rid of the parallel spots along the street car line eliminates the possibility of it being blocked by cars anyway. This would be a small step the city could do tomorrow. Not much the city could do with private lots that are already there. I wouldn’t allow any further demo permits for surface lot construction within the core. Plus if possible, The city should put pressure on these private property parking owners to keep up with current landscaping requirements that go along with new construction. Finally, I would actually enforce the city ordinance of allowing people to park only on specific hard surfaces. Any lot that includes gravel, grass, etc. would be fined until shut down. That’s where I would start.


I agree with your overall concept. I might quibble with some details, but this is a good start. Especially no parking on the street car line.

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## dankrutka

IF YOUR LACK OF PARKING ISN'T THE ONLY REASON FOR VISITING A CITY THEN YOUR OPINION IS INVALID!  :Wink:  ha ha. Giving you a hard time, but I think you're dismissing people's opinions because you're missing our larger point.

I think the point is that many of us travel to dense, urban cities not just because of their public transportation and lack of parking but because these things are what make these cities vibrant and walkable. They're interconnected. You can't separate them. 

In general (because it depends how they're spread around), every parking spot OKC has in it's core makes OKC  less dense and walkable because cars are taking up spaces that could be filled with residents, visitors, businesses, and more broadly, street life. And, the more dense/walkable and less cars the more the benefits accrue. Unfortunately, OKC keeps building parking garages every block and wonders why the streets are dead and no one is riding the streetcar. Again, I don't care what OKC does outside the core that much, but urban areas that don't abide by urban principles are not as good as those that do.

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## Plutonic Panda

^^^ Oh I agree with you about OKC’s parking. Plus the parking garages they are building are horribly designed and should be hidden or underground like most cities. We tore down a beautiful bus depot and building recently for some. I can go on all day bashing these parking garages. 

My response about the whole visiting cities for transit thing was in regards to Gators comments about people not visiting a city because of its parking lots. Of course no one does and no one here claimed they do. 

But I was not too impressed with the streetcar when I rode it and for the money we could have got more with an enhanced articulated bus system and dedicated bus lanes. This would have prevented virtually every problem the streetcar current has. 

Given OKCs car culture, I’m not so convinced parking garages are affecting ridership that much but I could be wrong. We need a multi billion dollar investment in OKCs mass transit network alone AND getting serious about interstate rail travel as well as connecting OKC to Tulsa with 110 MPH rail to their DOWNTOWNs and increasing speeds on heartland flyer. Extend heartland flyer to newton. Do that and I bet ridership increases. Since the street is already in place it should be expanded and the new expansion double tracked instead of a circulator.

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## HOT ROD

> The flaw in your argument is *a majority of MAPS taxes comes from outside downtown*.  All citizens have input not just downtowners.  Your argument is no one else matters except downtowners.
> 
> I think we have a thriving city with a great downtown.  Parking spots allow non downtowners to come and enjoy all the MAPS projects.
> 
> Like another poster said there is not an overabundance of building demand to shut down parking spots.  And small businesses rely on parking spots to generate extra revenue which can make just enough difference.
> 
> Outside of downtown the biggest complaint I hear is not enough parking.  Regardless if its true or not its their perception.  And a lot of people outside of downtown have made cars their #2 expense and want to park close to their cars.  Some have fears of walking far downtown.  I think its unfounded but people think this.  
> 
> There is no reason to eliminate spots and lets see how it does once all 3 new venues are open year.


And a majority of MAPS goes outside of downtown too 

Im getting sick and tired of people making this argument with the idea that MAPS only benefits downtown. While it is true that in downtown you can have the flashy and best building uses MAPS has always been a city wide effort not just in collections. Having downtown amenities just illustrates the beauty of having a core, it's economically advantageous to build big venues given the urban design constraints that dont exist in the rest of the city, Venues feed off each other in a dense area - so it makes sense to build a arena, baseball stadum, and canal to co-exist and create the destination that downtown is. 

but lets not forget the fairgrounds is ALWSAYS at MAps and isnt downtown, there are no senior cititizen centers downtown, very few trails and new sidewalks are downtown, ect. Maps has always been city wide, its just easier to build the big attractions downtown for a variety of reasons. ...

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## Jeepnokc

> And a majority of MAPS goes outside of downtown too 
> 
> Im getting sick and tired of people making this argument with the idea that MAPS only benefits downtown. While it is true that in downtown you can have the flashy and best building uses MAPS has always been a city wide effort not just in collections. Having downtown amenities just illustrates the beauty of having a core, it's economically advantageous to build big venues given the urban design constraints that dont exist in the rest of the city, Venues feed off each other in a dense area - so it makes sense to build a arena, baseball stadum, and canal to co-exist and create the destination that downtown is. 
> 
> but lets not forget the fairgrounds is ALWSAYS at MAps and isnt downtown, there are no senior cititizen centers downtown, very few trails and new sidewalks are downtown, ect. Maps has always been city wide, its just easier to build the big attractions downtown for a variety of reasons. ...


Has anyone done the numbers percentage wise to see how much money goes to each part of the city?   Would be interesting.

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