# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  Ward 8 Norman election.

## ou48A

http://normantranscript.com/

Harvest Church business administrator Chad Williams will be the next Ward 8 Norman City Council member.
 Williams took 54 percent of the vote to defeat small business owner Jackie Farley.
 Details in tomorrow's Transcript

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## Questor

I saw that.  In the end I was generally happy with both candidates because they were more or less against some of the nutty things that Planning has been doing lately, which was my primary issue.  I was really disappointed with how negative and nasty some of the 'anonymous' mailings that 'supporters' of Chad Williams, who apparently make the exact same spelling and grammar errors as those on his official fliers, were sending out.  Making insinuations about your opponents life style choices, their moral integrity, and so forth is never above board in my mind and particularly nasty for any of his supporters who consider themselves to be religious folk.  I nearly voted against him for the degree of hyperbole that came out in the last few days.  That and the fact that his consistent message on why he was qualified to be on the council was that he had a baby on the way.  He seems like a nice man, but really I am sick of the low-brow crap that our politicians shovel out these days.  

I thought Farley was much more well spoken and had a clearer message at a business and finance level on what she wanted to do.  Unfortunately I disagreed with all of it.

In the end I begrudgingly supported Williams.  I'm writing this so that maybe he will read it and take note, and tone these negative aspects down when he takes his seat on the council.  It's just unprofessional.  Not only that, I view Norman first and foremost as a college town, and with that comes a certain mindset and a certain openness.  I have no desire to see anyone try and change that.  I have no desire to see Norman become some super suburban hell like every other town in the metro.  I have no desire to see the council try to push things having anything to do with or against social issues.  I did like his message about focusing on fiscal matters and hope he sticks with that.

It was an interesting race.  I don't recall a city-level election ever getting this nasty before.

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## soonerfan123

I was glad to know that Mr. Williams mentioned having kids.  It doesn't necessarily "qualify" him; however it will make him more family oriented in his decision making which means alot to a large group of people in Norman.  I think someone with family values in the council seat is important....it is hard to have family values in your decisions if you don't have children.

In regards to the negative campaigning.  I completely agree that the low blows should stop in campaigns, but to blame Mr. Williams is ignorant.  This same group attacked him in the first election...there are people in the community that do not represent his views or religion, but still think he is best choice for the position.  So nobody can be sure these were "religious" folk who put out this mail piece.  I was impressed to see that he filed an official complaint with the Norman Election Commission and wrote a letter of apology stating that the mail piece was disgusting and inappropriate at the least.  Mr. Williams also stated in blog that he contacted Ms. Farley immediately an apologized that such a thing was done with his name on it.  That to me is very professional and show much character and integrity.

The downside to Mr. Williams was his voting record but it was not a deal breaker for me.  There are many people who don't have a great voting record but decide at some point to get involved an make a difference.  Overall, both candidates ran a positive campaign and talked about themselves and not each other....then the idiots had to get involved and make it negative.

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## venture

> I was glad to know that Mr. Williams mentioned having kids.  It doesn't necessarily "qualify" him; however it will make him more family oriented in his decision making which means alot to a large group of people in Norman.  I think someone with family values in the council seat is important....it is hard to have family values in your decisions if you don't have children.


Eeesh. You have way more faith in politicians than I do. Having children almost never equals having strong family values. Politicians are normally always going to be selfish and the fact they have offspring really doesn't mean anything. There are plenty of politicians with children that know nothing about "family values" and couldn't really care less about making a decision based on them. I wish I had your faith, but I just would find myself being naive if I actually thought that way. Not calling you that, just how I would feel about myself.

For me if someone it boasting about their faith or strong family values in their first 3 talking points given in a presentation (live or written) I almost immediately strike them off my list. They are essentially just pushing talking points to get the sheeple to vote for them at that point. They know their base of voters love hearing those words so they use them to lock them in.

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## ABryant

Wow....family values. Mary Fallin is the newt David Walters. And you think these are people are people?

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## Questor

When most people who live in Norman Ward 8 have children or eventually will have children, and when something like 95% of survey respondents in Oklahoma declare they are religious in some way, I think it means we as a society are setting the bar pretty low if this is all that matters to us when electing an official.  Why not support someone because they can breathe on their own?  It's nearly just as bad.  As I said in my first post I'm sure Williams is a nice man and all, but when you have so little going for you as a candidate that you have to trumpet being proud of a handful of attributes that nearly everyone else living on the planet has, then that's a bad campaign.  When we buy into it as voters we are allowing ourselves to be railroaded.  This would be the reason I 'begrudgingly' voted for him.  I thought he ran a horrible campaign.  But in the end he clearly came out against the apartment development on the west side and there were reasons I didn't like the other candidate and so I voted for him.  I won't do it again if there is a stronger candidate next time and Williams runs an equally vapid campaign.  If he uses a few brain cells in his next campaign then maybe I will again.

Also, I just want to say that I think it is ignorant to say that someone most likely can only have 'family values' if they have children.  I have a neighbor who is single but is taking care of his sick mother, who lives with him in his house.  Seems like a great guy to me.  I am tired of the 'us' and 'them' crap that has now even infiltrated our city politics.  No matter who the candidate is next go around I hope that when I receive a mailer from them it is a bulleted list of what it is they want to do, and what directions they want to take the city's resources in, and nothing more.

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## Hutch

> I have no desire to see Norman become some super suburban hell like every other town in the metro.


Well, then you may have voted for the wrong candidate.

I first got involved in City issues about 5 years ago when some new development activity began taking place in the floodplain area behind my home.  To keep the story short, my investigation into the matter led me to discover what was then a predominate good ol' boy system and how much of the decision-making at City Hall was being driven by the development community, regardless of its impacts on the citizens and community and Norman's quality of life.  Since that time, many of us have worked hard to help elect City Council members who are not beholden to the development community and to affect policy changes to ensure our municipal government functions in the best interest of the citizenry and community and not special interests.

That has been a difficult battle, as the development community has organized together and fought to maintain control over City Hall.  They have formed the Norman Developers Council and the Norman Builders Association and hired attorneys to press City officials and continue their influence.  They have taken over leadership of the Norman Chamber of Commerce and now use it as a tool to influence City Council and the decision-making process.

I have nothing personal against builders and developers.  We all live in homes or apartments built by builders on developments developed by developers.  They serve an important and necessary function in the growth of every town and city.  But they are not non-profit organizations.  They are for-profit businesses.  The problem that I and many in Norman have with the development community has nothing to do with the important services and products they provide the community.  The problem we have is with their organized, special interest efforts to control City Hall and the municipal decision-making processes in Norman in order to accelerate growth, increase housing demand, weaken ordinances and codes that protect the community, and force taxpayer subsidies for roads and utilities to support their projects, for the sole purpose of increased profits and financial gain.

Myself and many, many others in Norman have dedicated much time in the last number of years to try to keep control of City Hall in the hands of those who are dedicated to the best interests of the citizenry and the community.  It hasn't been easy and the battle continues.  Most recently over efforts by the development community to establish an economic development authority controlled by their unelected cronies who would be granted permanent power to give away our tax dollars to lure private companies to move to Norman.  They claim its all about providing "quality jobs" for our children, but it's really just about artificially stimulating growth and increasing housing demand.  At the same time, they are trying to find a way to get City Council to approve spending our tax dollars to build a new $80 million north side sewer plant even though we can provide the same needed capacity by expanding the south plant for less than half the cost.  Their attorneys even threatened City Council recently with opposing the much needed upcoming transportation bond issue that will fix many existing problems with our streets and drainage if Council didn't set aside $6 million of existing tax revenues and start designing the plant.  They claim its all about running out of sewer capacity, but it's really just about finding a way to get a sewer system on the north side of the Little River so that they can start developing that area, and they want the taxpayers to subsidize it through higher utility rates.

For all of those who truly want Norman to maintain its unique character and great quality of life and not become just another Edmond or an extension of Moore, then its important to pay attention not just to what City Council candidates say or print on their mailers, but who it is that's funding their campaigns.  That information is required to be reported to the City Clerk prior to every Council election and its easily obtainable by any citizen who wants to review it.  Here's the link for those who are interested:

Norman 2012 City Council Campaign Contribution Reports

Of the nearly $13,000 that Chad Williams reported as his total campaign contributions, more than 1/2 came from individuals and entities associated with the development community.

In comparison, less than 5% of Ms. Farley's contributions came from individuals involved in real estate matters.

The big question now is just what does the development community expect from Chad Williams for their investment and just what does Chad Williams feel obligated to do for the development community in return for their contributions. 

If you live in Ward 8 and voted for Mr. Williams and don't want to see "Norman become some super suburban hell like every other town in the metro", then you'd better stay involved in the issues mentioned above and other important matters that come before City Council and make sure to let your new Councilmember know that you expect him to make decisions based on what's in the best interest of the citizens and community and Norman's quality of life, and not based on satisfying the growth and subsidy demands of the development community which paid for the majority of his campaign.

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## kevinpate

the anti-development crowd's candidate was 50%(mol) funded by the development movers and shakers.
rut rho raggy, ain't that a stale lil' scooby snack to gnaw on for a bit.

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## rcjunkie

> Well, then you may have voted for the wrong candidate.
> 
> I first got involved in City issues about 5 years ago when some new development activity began taking place in the floodplain area behind my home.  To keep the story short, my investigation into the matter led me to discover what was then a predominate good ol' boy system and how much of the decision-making at City Hall was being driven by the development community, regardless of its impacts on the citizens and community and Norman's quality of life.  Since that time, many of us have worked hard to help elect City Council members who are not beholden to the development community and to affect policy changes to ensure our municipal government functions in the best interest of the citizenry and community and not special interests.
> 
> That has been a difficult battle, as the development community has organized together and fought to maintain control over City Hall.  They have formed the Norman Developers Council and the Norman Builders Association and hired attorneys to press City officials and continue their influence.  They have taken over leadership of the Norman Chamber of Commerce and now use it as a tool to influence City Council and the decision-making process.
> 
> I have nothing personal against builders and developers.  We all live in homes or apartments built by builders on developments developed by developers.  They serve an important and necessary function in the growth of every town and city.  But they are not non-profit organizations.  They are for-profit businesses.  The problem that I and many in Norman have with the development community has nothing to do with the important services and products they provide the community.  The problem we have is with their organized, special interest efforts to control City Hall and the municipal decision-making processes in Norman in order to accelerate growth, increase housing demand, weaken ordinances and codes that protect the community, and force taxpayer subsidies for roads and utilities to support their projects, for the sole purpose of increased profits and financial gain.
> 
> Myself and many, many others in Norman have dedicated much time in the last number of years to try to keep control of City Hall in the hands of those who are dedicated to the best interests of the citizenry and the community.  It hasn't been easy and the battle continues.  Most recently over efforts by the development community to establish an economic development authority controlled by their unelected cronies who would be granted permanent power to give away our tax dollars to lure private companies to move to Norman.  They claim its all about providing "quality jobs" for our children, but it's really just about artificially stimulating growth and increasing housing demand.  At the same time, they are trying to find a way to get City Council to approve spending our tax dollars to build a new $80 million north side sewer plant even though we can provide the same needed capacity by expanding the south plant for less than half the cost.  Their attorneys even threatened City Council recently with opposing the much needed upcoming transportation bond issue that will fix many existing problems with our streets and drainage if Council didn't set aside $6 million of existing tax revenues and start designing the plant.  They claim its all about running out of sewer capacity, but it's really just about finding a way to get a sewer system on the north side of the Little River so that they can start developing that area, and they want the taxpayers to subsidize it through higher utility rates.
> ...


With that mind set, couldn't you ask what those that contributed to Ms. Farley's campaign expect to gain from her if she had won ?

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## Hutch

> With that mind set, couldn't you ask what those that contributed to Ms. Farley's campaign expect to gain from her if she had won ?


I could and I'm sure I know what most would say...better government without undue influence from those who profit from the decisions at City Hall at the expense of the everyone else.

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## king183

> I am tired of the 'us' and 'them' crap that has now even infiltrated our city politics.  No matter who the candidate is next go around I hope that when I receive a mailer from them it is a bulleted list of what it is they want to do, and what directions they want to take the city's resources in, and nothing more.


As a political consultant, these statements always catch my eye.  As a citizen, I completely agree with the statement, but the fact is almost every voter, if asked, will say the exact same them. Unfortunately, every bit of data shows that candidates who do send out a bulleted or detailed list of what is they want to do are more likely to lose than the candidate who sends out the us vs. them and boilerplate crap.  Negative campaigning is done in politics so often for one reason: 9 times out of 10, IT WORKS.  (Of course there are a few caveats to it, but as a general rule, it's true).

So everyone says they want more substance from their candidates, but we know from massive amounts of research into the minds and habits of voters that it really won't make a difference.  So, until there is some game change in the psychology of voters, each one of you good and loyal voters can expect the boilerplate mail piece that hits on tired phrases and slogans and has little substance.  (Actually, you can expect 8 of them)

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## Questor

Whatever helps you sleep at night.  All I read was that you are part of the problem and are making money off of it.  Might as well be conning old ladies who are just "asking for it."

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## Questor

> I have nothing personal against builders and developers.  We all live in homes or apartments built by builders on developments developed by developers.  They serve an important and necessary function in the growth of every town and city.  But they are not non-profit organizations.  They are for-profit businesses.  The problem that I and many in Norman have with the development community has nothing to do with the important services and products they provide the community.  The problem we have is with their organized, special interest efforts to control City Hall and the municipal decision-making processes in Norman in order to accelerate growth, increase housing demand, weaken ordinances and codes that protect the community, and force taxpayer subsidies for roads and utilities to support their projects, for the sole purpose of increased profits and financial gain.


You know, one significant problem that I see with Norman is that it has two extremely opposed groups trying to control planning in the city.  One wants to develop the crap out of every last square inch of land, and they could really care less how it looks or what goes in, just so long as something goes in and they get paid.  The other half apparently wants us to return to the dark ages, trading our cars in for bicycles and go live in large communal packs where we eat at Earth Cafe seven times a week.  To me both of these positions seem irrational and are probably just self-serving.  

I'm not opposed to development at all if it is the right development.  If this Williams guy does vote against the proposed apartment complex on Tecumseh, and as a result we instead somehow landed a Whole Foods there, I would be ecstatic.  Actually I would be very happy with high-quality fast casual restaurants or full service restaurants as well.  I just don't want any more ugly developments, developments that destroy property values, or developments that attract the overly-annoying crowd.  When I think of a suburban hell I think of a place that is overcrowded and has had no zoning laws applied at all, and as a result is just a big mess of whatever anyone wanted to throw together on a plot of land.  I hope that is not where we are headed.  But I also hope we aren't headed to a place where the West side starts to look like the East side.  Perhaps more planned, but it is also much more run-down looking.

What Norman doesn't need is another car lot, or another corrugated metal warehouse in massively visible areas, or another bad-looking strip mall or shady hotel.  The expansive West side isn't going away, and it's unrealistic to think that development can be curtailed there or that mass transit is going to replace the highways and streets in that part of town anytime in the next 50 years.  So that being the case the pragmatist in me says it is going to be developed.  What I personally hope for is that these developments are of high-quality, that they are not dense believe it or not because that's not the part of town Ward 8 is, and that each one is unique and not competing on someone else's doorstep like what has been going on over in UNP (e.g. Panda in Pei Wei's parking lot, Matress Firm across the street from Mathis, and so on).

I think your advise of staying involved in the issues is great advise for anyone who voted for any candidate in any of the wards.

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## Hutch

Just saw this in the Norman Transcript this morning:

http://normantranscript.com/headline...nditure-report

Apparently, the Norman City Attorney is investigating possible ethics and campaign violations by the Cleveland County GOP PAC and Norman City Councilmember Dave Spaulding for involvement in distributing partisan mailers in support of Chad Williams.  The CCGOPPAC is also being fined for failing to file a campaign contribution report in the race.

Under the Norman City Charter, Council races are supposed to be non-partisan.  However, in the last few years the CCGOPPAC has begun to search for and promote candidates for City Council as a means to insert their political agenda into local City Council decisions on social issues and other matters.  Current Ward 2 Councilmember Dave Spaulding was heavily supported by the CCGOPPAC when he won the Ward 5 City Council race a year ago.  At the time, Bobby Cleveland was Chairman of the CCGOPPAC.  The news story says that Councilmember Spaulding is now Chaiman of the CCGOPPAC and that his wife is Treasurer.  It appears Councilmember Spaulding is being investigated for possible ethics violations and violations of the City Charter for knowingly being involved in partisan campaign activity in a City Council election.  Mr. Spaulding apparently admitted the partisan campaign materials were his idea.  Chad Williams apparently denies any prior knowldege of Mr. Spaulding's involvement and actions or of the campaign materials.  What the news story didn't mention is that Mr. Williams and Mr. Spaulding are apparently close associates and members of the same church.  If that's true, I would find it hard to believe that Mr. Spaulding would distibute any type of campaign materials that Mr. Williams didn't review and approve.

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## rjstone208

I live in Ward 6 on the east side.  Develop it all.  The more the better.  Several years ago Sunny Side Cafe wanted to move to east Norman from Robinson and the council turned them down.  They left and moved to Moore.  I'm tired of driving to the City or west side to have anything.  We get banks and fast food joints here.  Only one decent restaurant--"O" and not much else.  Looking forward to Sunflower/Sprouts at the old Hobbly Lobby near downtown just to have something decent closer.   So again, turn the developers loose.  Let's have lot's of new housing, retail and anything else we Eastsiders can get our grubby little hands on.  We might even get 24th Ave East widened from the two-lane farm road it is now to an actual four-lane road.  And yes I'd leave Norman if I could.  Getting too close to retirement and we're more or less locked in here now.  So more, more, more!!!!! Esthetics be damned.

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## king183

> Whatever helps you sleep at night.  All I read was that you are part of the problem and are making money off of it.  Might as well be conning old ladies who are just "asking for it."


Haha.  You just proved what I said without intention of doing so.  Thanks! You displayed the exact reaction someone uninformed about the political process would be expected to. I simply told you the reality of the political situation (i.e., you get those stupid, boilerplater mail pieces because that's how the vast majority of voters make decisions, and not because they want "substantive" pieces).

By the way, I'm not a communications/messaging consultant; I'm someone who helps the candidates find which voters to target.  I don't expect you to know the difference, but don't take out your frustrations with the political process on me.

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## king183

> Just saw this in the Norman Transcript this morning:
> 
> http://normantranscript.com/headline...nditure-report
> 
> Apparently, the Norman City Attorney is investigating possible ethics and campaign violations by the Cleveland County GOP PAC and Norman City Councilmember Dave Spaulding for involvement in distributing partisan mailers in support of Chad Williams.  The CCGOPPAC is also being fined for failing to file a campaign contribution report in the race.
> 
> Under the Norman City Charter, Council races are supposed to be non-partisan.  However, in the last few years the CCGOPPAC has begun to search for and promote candidates for City Council as a means to insert their political agenda into local City Council decisions on social issues and other matters.  Current Ward 2 Councilmember Dave Spaulding was heavily supported by the CCGOPPAC when he won the Ward 5 City Council race a year ago.  At the time, Bobby Cleveland was Chairman of the CCGOPPAC.  The news story says that Councilmember Spaulding is now Chaiman of the CCGOPPAC and that his wife is Treasurer.  It appears Councilmember Spaulding is being investigated for possible ethics violations and violations of the City Charter for knowingly being involved in partisan campaign activity in a City Council election.  Mr. Spaulding apparently admitted the partisan campaign materials were his idea.  Chad Williams apparently denies any prior knowldege of Mr. Spaulding's involvement and actions or of the campaign materials.  What the news story didn't mention is that Mr. Williams and Mr. Spaulding are apparently close associates and members of the same church.  If that's true, I would find it hard to believe that Mr. Spaulding would distibute any type of campaign materials that Mr. Williams didn't review and approve.


Hutch, this type of stuff happens every election.  The Cleveland County Democrats supported Mayor Rosenthal (even held a fundraiser for her) and many other members.  The County GOP supported Hal Ezzell and other members, too. The idea that city elections are non-partisan hasn't been true, except in the very literal sense, for a very long time. 

Unfortunately, Norman's ethics committee has no power, so absolutely nothing will come of this, except maybe a slap on the wrist.  Bobby Cleveland is notorious for that kind of stuff and the ethic committee always threw a fit right after the elections and then did nothing about it.

EDIT: You will also note that an expenditure report it ALWAYS filed late. This happens every single election. Why? So nothing can come out before the election and because there is no real consequence for filing it late.

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## clrthinker

> I live in Ward 6 on the east side.  Develop it all.  The more the better.  Several years ago Sunny Side Cafe wanted to move to east Norman from Robinson and the council turned them down.  They left and moved to Moore.  I'm tired of driving to the City or west side to have anything.  We get banks and fast food joints here.  Only one decent restaurant--"O" and not much else.  Looking forward to Sunflower/Sprouts at the old Hobbly Lobby near downtown just to have something decent closer.   So again, turn the developers loose.  Let's have lot's of new housing, retail and anything else we Eastsiders can get our grubby little hands on.  We might even get 24th Ave East widened from the two-lane farm road it is now to an actual four-lane road.  And yes I'd leave Norman if I could.  Getting too close to retirement and we're more or less locked in here now.  So more, more, more!!!!! Esthetics be damned.


Land and houses are cheaper on the EAST side precisely because it is farther from the business and other core activities.   The east side has less stuff because it is not as dense and businesses need enough market to be profitable.  Even if the East side is developed like mad, it will still have less than the West due to its proximity to I35 which is a major draw for businesses.   If you want to be closer to stuff, then the answer is simply to move and pay the higher housing prices.This is the basic tradeoff that is made when choosing housing and neighborhood location. You can't have it both ways.

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## venture

It was interesting to see that Dave Spaulding, the worthless pile of garbage Ward 5 is stuck with, was the one who came up with the postcard that caused the most issue in the Ward 8 campaign. Go figure. A typical radical nutjob that loves the partisan game. Now if only during the next election voters would wake up and put him out on his ear.

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

I live on the east side in ward 7, and am also close to retirement, living modestly.  Frankly I do not understand rjstone208.  We go to OKC almost exclusively for medical care from specialists, and almost never go west of I-35, because we have enjoyed QUALITY development downtown.  I am thankful we have access to healthy foods (farmers' market, stores, cages, restaurants) instead of unhealthy fast foods, to locally owned businesses instead of big corporate franchises.  There are esthetics-be-damned places everywhere; if you want an anesthetic environment, it is surely easy to find!  But the arts and esthetics (not to ve confused with west-side luxury) make Norman a wonderful place to live.  As I approach retirement, I want more & better sidewalks; the bicycle routes, lanes, and paths need lots more development; and the bus service needs to be much more accommodating.  I'd like to see Main Street between University and Crawford become a pedestrian mall with excellent bus route access and parking garages in the current city lots, and a one-way loop around it on Gray, Porter, Eufala, and University.  I'd like to see arts fairs, music festivals, local vegetable stands, local vendors' booths & food/drink food carts, playgrounds, etc. on the mall.  This is the sort of development that can support local small business ownership, age-friendly convenience, intergenerational community.  Out of state developers be damned, I say!  Let Norman be a real HOMETOWN that we can love, not just an interstate-highway stop.  

I am deeply concerned about persistent lack of transparency in Norman's deliberations about development.

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## rjstone208

> Land and houses are cheaper on the EAST side precisely because it is farther from the business and other core activities.   The east side has less stuff because it is not as dense and businesses need enough market to be profitable.  Even if the East side is developed like mad, it will still have less than the West due to its proximity to I35 which is a major draw for businesses.   If you want to be closer to stuff, then the answer is simply to move and pay the higher housing prices.This is the basic tradeoff that is made when choosing housing and neighborhood location. You can't have it both ways.


Agree.  Reply was partly tongue in cheek and a little poking the bears.   East side housing is increasing but far east Norman single family homes were restricted to large lots and no typical neighborhood developments with mass produced housing.  West-siders conspiracy.  I'm fairly active politically and keep track of what's going on and don't think east-siders have ever had strong representatives on the council who pushed for east side development.  Generally went with the preservationists and west-siders.  Only hope is that the last couple of elections, candidates who advocated no development and a roll back to the early 1900's were soundly defeated.  Maybe I'll run.  Any developers on board.  Just poking the bears again folks.

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## venture

> Agree.  Reply was partly tongue in cheek and a little poking the bears.   East side housing is increasing but far east Norman single family homes were restricted to large lots and no typical neighborhood developments with mass produced housing.  West-siders conspiracy.  I'm fairly active politically and keep track of what's going on and don't think east-siders have ever had strong representatives on the council who pushed for east side development.  Generally went with the preservationists and west-siders.  Only hope is that the last couple of elections, candidates who advocated no development and a roll back to the early 1900's were soundly defeated.  Maybe I'll run.  Any developers on board.  Just poking the bears again folks.


It might not be a bad idea to see Wards redrawn as well.

http://ci.norman.ok.us/sites/default...e%20WebMap.pdf

Ward 5 is mainly to cover the rural portion of Norman and the lake. Current Ward 5 Councilman Dave Spaulding clearly doesn't represent the views of those in Ward 5 west of 48th.




> Dave believes he represents the rural community and the values and interests inherent to country living. Dave recognizes that there needs to be balance and believes he can help the council in merging those country living values with the views and interests of those living in more populated areas.


Source: http://ci.norman.ok.us/content/profile-dave-spaulding

If the councilman wants to focus on the rural community and the "values and interests" of those type of folks, he shouldn't be representing the more urban/suburban areas of Ward 5 since he clearly doesn't represent them. If anything Ward 1 should cover anything south of Alameda and west of 48th. Let the Tea Party Cheerleader Spaulding take care of his rural people that he is more interested in.

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## rjstone208

> I live on the east side in ward 7, and am also close to retirement, living modestly.  Frankly I do not understand rjstone208.  We go to OKC almost exclusively for medical care from specialists, and almost never go west of I-35, because we have enjoyed QUALITY development downtown.  I am thankful we have access to healthy foods (farmers' market, stores, cages, restaurants) instead of unhealthy fast foods, to locally owned businesses instead of big corporate franchises.  There are esthetics-be-damned places everywhere; if you want an anesthetic environment, it is surely easy to find!  But the arts and esthetics (not to ve confused with west-side luxury) make Norman a wonderful place to live.  As I approach retirement, I want more & better sidewalks; the bicycle routes, lanes, and paths need lots more development; and the bus service needs to be much more accommodating.  I'd like to see Main Street between University and Crawford become a pedestrian mall with excellent bus route access and parking garages in the current city lots, and a one-way loop around it on Gray, Porter, Eufala, and University.  I'd like to see arts fairs, music festivals, local vegetable stands, local vendors' booths & food/drink food carts, playgrounds, etc. on the mall.  This is the sort of development that can support local small business ownership, age-friendly convenience, intergenerational community.  Out of state developers be damned, I say!  Let Norman be a real HOMETOWN that we can love, not just an interstate-highway stop.  
> 
> I am deeply concerned about persistent lack of transparency in Norman's deliberations about development.


Almost all our medical is here in Norman.  Agree with some points about the quality development downtown and some other amenities.  Disagree with many others but heh, that's what makes a community.  Are you a grizzly or eastern brown?

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

Most of our medical is in Norman too, but medical specialists are almost our only reason for going to OKC.  In my experience, bears are intrusive, greedy, and mean...  which I hope is not my MO!  LOL. I like my neighbors & colleagues here, and this is one of the best communities I've ever lived in.  I have lived in places whose entire community feeling, political integrity, environmental health, and local economies & beauty have been DESTROYED by wanton development of tracts, malls, petrochemical & nuclear power industries, and emigration of healthier local-centered businesses.  My birthplace used to be a wonderful place, but I scarcely recognize it now and have no desire to visit it (despite my desire to see certain people), much less live there.  I think that's tragic.  I wonder if you really know what you are asking for here.  I think you'd change your mind if you had witnessed the "development" I have witnessed elsewhere.   Do you like Norman?  Would you rather live in Moore?  Surely if you prefer that, you could move there.

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## rcjunkie

> It was interesting to see that Dave Spaulding, the worthless pile of garbage Ward 5 is stuck with, was the one who came up with the postcard that caused the most issue in the Ward 8 campaign. Go figure. A typical radical nutjob that loves the partisan game. Now if only during the next election voters would wake up and put him out on his ear.


Care to explain how your childish name calling make you any better the Mr. Spaulding ?

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

I must admit I am wondering why name-calling of that sort is welcome here, especially in view of OKCTalk's posted requirement to be polite.  There are plenty of intelligent questions to ask about that elected official's conduct without resort to such uncivil language.  I have serious ethical questions about Mr. Spaulding's conduct, raised by the news that Hutch has posted here, and I would probably not vote for him if I lived in ward 5.  However, I have no respect whatsoever for name-calling:  suddenly I see why rjstone makes reference to mama grizzlies & other wild bears.

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

_Edit:  If you have any concerns about board moderation send a PM to mmm or Pete.  Thanks.  ~  Pete_

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## venture

> Care to explain how your childish name calling make you any better the Mr. Spaulding ?


Yeah forgive me for lack of better judgement and getting a little emotional. I've had to deal with him a few times regarding issues of crime growing and it always fell on deaf ears.

On the side though, RC you don't really have much room to judge other's behavior on this site considering you behavior in the Politics section is well documents. So Pot...Kettle. I'll actually apologize for my poor behavior though.




> I must admit I am wondering why name-calling of that sort is welcome here, especially in view of OKCTalk's posted requirement to be polite.  There are plenty of intelligent questions to ask about that elected official's conduct without resort to such uncivil language.  I have serious ethical questions about Mr. Spaulding's conduct, raised by the news that Hutch has posted here, and I would probably not vote for him if I lived in ward 5.  However, I have no respect whatsoever for name-calling:  suddenly I see why rjstone makes reference to mama grizzlies & other wild bears.


Mary forgive me. Normally I don't get that worked up, but I let it slip without really thinking about it. However if you are concerned about name calling, stay out of the Politics section. LOL

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

Thank you, venture!  I have seen tolerance for name-calling really degenerate forums like this to the point of exchanging violent threats that had a terror effect.  I was so heartened to see OKCTalk's rules and then puzzled to see the Spaulding discussion, which deserves a lot of intelligent development, degenerate.  I understand your impatience and appreciate the humility of your apology.  Sorry to play the part of Schoolteacher!  I am concerned about US politics generally, because it is more about name-calling than debating EVERYWHERE here!  My frustration with that got the better of me.  Thanks so much.

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## Questor

> Haha.  You just proved what I said without intention of doing so [...]


http://tinyurl.com/7euthvy

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## Questor

> Yeah forgive me for lack of better judgement and getting a little emotional. I've had to deal with him a few times regarding issues of crime growing and it always fell on deaf ears.


It's an understandable reaction though.  Time and again someone running for office will promise the world, and then barely carry out their base functions of office once elected.  Back in the old days I think that was called lying.  In the case of Williams the only reason I voted for him was because he finally came out and uncategorically stated on the record that he would oppose the development that was my number one issue.  Only time will tell if he was being honest, or if he was lying I suppose.

I think the biggest problem with politics is that everyone wants to show each other how brilliant they are, and they want to do it by taking advantage of their competition, the voters, or anyone they have to in order to win... even if that means flat-out breaking the law and not caring simply because doing so has no real consequences.  To me this denotes a total lack of any kind of ethics whatsoever.  The voters have some culpability in this, but not as much as those working over the system do... not as much as those actively being unethical, and taking profit in it, do.  It's sort of like living somewhere where your only choices in banking are BOA and USAA, two banks consistently ranked as having the absolute worst customer service in the nation.  Sure if you get mad at one you can switch to the other, but because they have the whole system locked-in, moving from one to the other doesn't make anything better.  In many ways this reminds me of how OKC's business scene was in a lot of respects 10 or 20 years ago... nothing but bad choices in some markets.  How do individuals fight that?  In all honesty, we can't as individuals... not when every individual in the ward can band together and still be outspent or out coordinated by a few political committees.  Just like how in the real world it took some 'game changers' to move things in a better direction with respect to business, the same is true for politics and the city council elections.  I'm not sure what that game changer would be when so few people tend to run for these offices.  Perhaps giving the law of the city, the charter, specifically the section that sites nonpartisan positions for all offices, some teeth in some way might be a start to help encourage folks not to run these kind of campaigns.  How do you not vote for the guy running the negative campaign when they are all running a negative campaign?

Norman and OKC have been somewhat insulated from this in the past, but it has been a growing factor in recent elections.  I would hate to see the kind of things that go on in towns like Tulsa or Stillwater become predominant here in central Oklahoma.  I would like to think that OKC and Norman are better than that.

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## rjstone208

> Most of our medical is in Norman too, but medical specialists are almost our only reason for going to OKC.  In my experience, bears are intrusive, greedy, and mean...  which I hope is not my MO!  LOL. I like my neighbors & colleagues here, and this is one of the best communities I've ever lived in.  I have lived in places whose entire community feeling, political integrity, environmental health, and local economies & beauty have been DESTROYED by wanton development of tracts, malls, petrochemical & nuclear power industries, and emigration of healthier local-centered businesses.  My birthplace used to be a wonderful place, but I scarcely recognize it now and have no desire to visit it (despite my desire to see certain people), much less live there.  I think that's tragic.  I wonder if you really know what you are asking for here.  I think you'd change your mind if you had witnessed the "development" I have witnessed elsewhere.   Do you like Norman?  Would you rather live in Moore?  Surely if you prefer that, you could move there.


I like Norman.  You do realize I'm poking a little fun at all the over reaction and general huffiness that folks get themselves worked into on these forums.  As in poking the bear to see what will happen.  I don't play much but just couldn't resist.  I retired from the Army and have lived on and/or visited all of the continents on the planet and most of the major countries.  I still travel a lot.  I've seen what you're talking about.  I think development if done right and intelligently is good.  Of course my idea of right and intelligent is different from yours.  I have an MS in Public Administration with an emphasis in Urban Planning so not too unfamiliar with it all. I don't see retrenchment and absolute NIMBY as good at all.   And I see that a lot in Norman.  More so than in most other communities I've lived in.  My neighbor thinks that absolutely nothing else should be built in east Norman, not another house, store, restaurant, anything.  So I'm not name-calling.  Only seeing what the bears will do.

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

I am not advocating retrenchment and absolute NIMBY, rjstone, and never thought you were name-calling.  A once-upon-a-time architecture student myself, who audited an urban ecology course a while back so that I could be a better-informed citizen, I do favor truly smart city planning, especially to strengthen downtown development and prevent wanton sprawl.  But the plutocratic NEDA recently created (to use public funds to line greedy pockets) is not pointing Norman in that hopeful direction at all.  I have seen no urban planning & design intelligence even recruited to advise our City Council's BCAC, whose minutes I have read.  Economists of various stripes, yes, and developers, of course, but no urban designers or planners.  I will not trust local talk of development until I see some engagement with credible substantial intelligence from that quarter.  Some have made arguments implicitly favoring such engagement, but I have not yet heard explicit advocacy for it.   And I think that is a foolish gap in city leadership.

My brainstorm image of downtown Norman (earlier post above) as a pedestrian mall supported by better public transportation and parking facilities and recirculated auto traffic is an urban design concept I have seen fail in one place and succeed in at least two others.  Where it failed, it invited JD crime; I expect city planners did not work with the urban designers.  Where it succeeded, it boosted local business, city identity, intergenerational community, commercial convenience, and local arts...  and halted awful sprawl that was gutting downtown.  There was clearly a fine partnership between designers and planners.  I would like to see this happen in Norman.

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## ou48A

Most of us desire high end quality development. But to a degree quality development is subjective.
Higher end amenities always gravitate toward wealth creating jobs. With enough high wage jobs the quality of life is increased for all by providing the revenue to support both public and private quality developments.

If we want more high end amenities the city of Norman needs to make high wage jobs and economic development a much larger priority than they have. Many more graduates of OU’s tougher degree programs would stay in the Norman area if they had good job opportunities. New or relocating businesses want a friendly state and local business environment. They want a good airport, smooth uncongested streets and highways, great schools and a quality workforce. We should improve those types of factors.

But too many of our elected city leaders in Norman have made social issues such as making Norman an inclusive community or making Norman green a much bigger priority than they should. Even if we could have done better, when it comes to economic development, it is without question that ward 8 elected the better of the 2 candidates.

Like it or not Norman is going to continue to grow and become a much larger city.
The healthiest development will occur with the traditional family who has great local job opportunities.

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## venture

> But too many of our elected city leaders in Norman have made social issues such as making Norman an inclusive community or making Norman green a much bigger priority than they should. Even if we could have done better, when it comes to economic development, it is without question that ward 8 elected the better of the 2 candidates.


Interesting how you consider the negative social issues to be making Norman and "inclusive community" and being smarter towards the environment. Yet I'm guessing you don't see any harm when candidates put their faith or "family values" as their number 1 or 2 qualification for office? Norman is home to a major university with a very diverse population. If you have any hope of retaining the graduates of that community then the first order of business must be job diversity but also building a community that is respectful and welcoming to all backgrounds.

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## ou48A

> Interesting how you consider the negative social issues to be making Norman and "inclusive community" and being smarter towards the environment. Yet I'm guessing you don't see any harm when candidates put their faith or "family values" as their number 1 or 2 qualification for office? Norman is home to a major university with a very diverse population. If you have any hope of retaining the graduates of that community then the first order of business must be job diversity but also building a community that is respectful and welcoming to all backgrounds.


What I am talking about is the goals and priorities city leaders… By developing high quality jobs most of those other issues are better taken care of via a higher levels of prosperity… 

In the end and no matter how we feel about the social issues, we are all better off living in a more prosperous city.

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

What counts for you as a high quality job, ou48?  And what do you mean by "prosperity"?  I have never observed that other community values necessarily follow prosperity.  Ethical values in a community have a lot to do with what sort of prosperity develops.   Do you want something like Boulder, Iowa City, Charlottesville, or Ithaca, or do you want something like Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Charlotte, Wilmington, or Des Moines?   Very different values => very different notions of prosperity and development.

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

I agree with your analysis here, venture.  Richard Florida's brilliant concept of "cultural creatives" is a crucial idea here for urban planning & design sensitive to the preservation of Norman's historic identity and purpose as it develops.

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## ou48A

> What counts for you as a high quality job, ou48?  And what do you mean by "prosperity"?  I have never observed that other community values necessarily follow prosperity.  Ethical values in a community have a lot to do with what sort of prosperity develops.   Do you want something like Boulder, Iowa City, Charlottesville, or Ithaca, or do you want something like Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Charlotte, Wilmington, or Des Moines?   Very different values => very different notions of prosperity and development.


It’s about making our city’s prosperity a priority… and not giving priority to some of the very small special interest groups that among other things have push an inclusive community, environmental or bicycle interest. These small nitch special interests have taken too much time and energy away from city officials that should have been going toward the development of high quality Jobs. The city of Norman has not constantly worked very hard on developing high quality jobs and made it a very high priority.

What is a high quality job? That’s a very subjective question. Others may have perfectly valid points of view but here are a few of my thoughts.
It would not be 100% of the time but in Norman I believe a high quality job would generally require a college degree in a program that employs people at well above the areas average compensation rate.
It would probably help if more resources were prioritized at OU towards degree programs that actually had high quality job opportunities and not some of the degree programs where jobs are scarce and wages low in our state.
A high quality job would give its employee enough time to adequately take care of his / her family needs. Some employers have started giving employees every other Friday afternoon off. I like that idea a lot.

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## venture

> It’s about making our city’s prosperity a priority… and not giving priority to some of the very small special interest groups that among other things have push an inclusive community, environmental or bicycle interest. These small nitch special interests have taken too much time and energy away from city officials that should have been going toward the development of high quality Jobs. The city of Norman has not constantly worked very hard on developing high quality jobs and made it a very high priority.
> 
> What is a high quality job? That’s a very subjective question. Others may have perfectly valid points of view but here are a few of my thoughts.
> It would not be 100% of the time but in Norman I believe a high quality job would generally require a college degree in a program that employs people at well above the areas average compensation rate.
> It would probably help if more resources were prioritized at OU towards degree programs that actually had high quality job opportunities and not some of the degree programs where jobs are scarce and wages low in our state.
> A high quality job would give its employee enough time to adequately take care of his / her family needs. Some employers have started giving employees every other Friday afternoon off. I like that idea a lot.


In order to attract the jobs you want, typically companies are also going to look at quality of life items. Obviously bike paths, a greener city, and a community that doesn't discriminate against anyone would definitely play in that. If I'm looking to locate a business do I want to put jobs in a community where it is just a commuter town or one where there are activities and amenities to make living there enjoyable? While yes we definitely need more attention to making the business climate more acceptable to businesses, we also need to make sure their people are taken care of as well. 

Norman has done a fairly good job at keeping things balanced as a very moderate town politically. That is something that needs to remain, though I can tell you are quite annoyed that the city has even touched any environmental or orientation discrimination policies. As I said, these are good but they need to be in balance. The failures at UNP and effectively competing against areas such as Moore is well documented and should be a motivation point for city leaders.

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## clrthinker

[QUOTE=venture79;554387]In order to attract the jobs you want, typically companies are also going to look at quality of life items. Obviously bike paths, a greener city, and a community that doesn't discriminate against anyone would definitely play in that. If I'm looking to locate a business do I want to put jobs in a community where it is just a commuter town or one where there are activities and amenities to make living there enjoyable? While yes we definitely need more attention to making the business climate more acceptable to businesses, we also need to make sure their people are taken care of as well. 

Wanting quality jobs and having the ability to generate them are distinct issues.  Everyone wants quality jobs (no matter how we define them). The issue is do we really think a city (or even state) government can take actions that effectively increase employment in a locality.  The unfortunate fact (based on a mulititude of economic evidence) is that basic location factors are the driving factor in employment growth.  Big cities attract employment due to basic agglomeration (fancy word for clusters) factors.  Big cities have more business activities and demand which both attract new business and facilitate expansion.  Norman is a small city at the edge of a bigger city.  OKC sucks in activity by its very size.  Norman gets more stuff as it grows.  Yes, we could get lucky and lure a new business activity to town. However, the unanswered (and hardly ever addressed) question is was the new business worth the cost from the community perspective?

Norman should do all it can to provide for a healthy economy, including fiscally sound budgeting, quality public safety safety and infrastructure, establish clear and consistent planning/zoning rules, and develop quality workforce at cost effective price (taxes)? The Norman Economic Development Coalition can do marketing activities and assist business interested in locating/expanding in the city.  Throwing money/subsidies/tax subsidies to attract businesses is NOT the answer at the City level.

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## ou48A

> In order to attract the jobs you want, typically companies are also going to look at quality of life items. Obviously bike paths, a greener city, and a community that doesn't discriminate against anyone would definitely play in that. If I'm looking to locate a business do I want to put jobs in a community where it is just a commuter town or one where there are activities and amenities to make living there enjoyable? While yes we definitely need more attention to making the business climate more acceptable to businesses, we also need to make sure their people are taken care of as well. 
> 
> Norman has done a fairly good job at keeping things balanced as a very moderate town politically. That is something that needs to remain, though I can tell you are quite annoyed that the city has even touched any environmental or orientation discrimination policies. As I said, these are good but they need to be in balance. The failures at UNP and effectively competing against areas such as Moore is well documented and should be a motivation point for city leaders.


I understand the need for building up the scores on quality of life resume. But the city of Norman does very little to promote its self economically given what it has to offer. Yes, to that point I am annoyed that we have allowed our self’s to be distracted by the social interest of special interests groups who in the grand scheme of things only account for a very small percentage of the city’s population. Very few businesses are going to make a relocation decision based over most of these social issues. Few if any even care about most of them.
They account for a dispaporante amount of attention by city leaders when they should be spending much more time on improving the high quality job prospects of the entire community. We need to elect people who understand that fact.

Again it’s about making it a priority. Given the histories involved with the 2 the candidate who won is more likely to have the development of high quality jobs as a priority. With more high quality jobs we are much more likely to have more high quality development.

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## blangtang

Is the City of Norman still littering speed humps and speed tables all across town?  Last time I was down there it was like driving thru an obstacle course, especially over by the campus.  

The best examples of good jobs that I saw in Norman were coming from OU, and had little to do with the actions of the City of Norman. They were hiring all kinds of professors and such, bringing people in from all over the country and world.  Those people are also Cindy's people, and they like the idea of a female professor running the city council, even with all her crunchy granola tendencies.

The other thing that brought younger educated people to Norman are some of those spinoffs from the OU research labs.  I met one dude from California that moved to Norman to work at some kind of private weather company.  Another guy that worked there moved from the Boston area.  The both had some sort of Meteorology degrees.  And they both purchased homes a year or two after moving to Norman.  I suppose thats what you want, not college degree holding kids working at Pei Wei and Discount Tire in UNP!

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## ou48A

The city of Norman spent over one million dollars on traffic calming devices. They have probably caused at least that much damage to vehicles and in delaying (fire, ambulance, police) emergency response times. Some were very poorly constructed. Many old people hate them because it shakes their arthritic bodies, even at slow speeds. In most cases the money could have been better spent attracting high quality jobs or on better traffic enforcement.

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## ou48A

> The best examples of good jobs that I saw in Norman were coming from OU, and had little to do with the actions of the City of Norman. They were hiring all kinds of professors and such, bringing people in from all over the country and world.  Those people are also Cindy's people, and they like the idea of a female professor running the city council, even with all her crunchy granola tendencies.
> 
> The other thing that brought younger educated people to Norman are some of those spinoffs from the OU research labs.  I met one dude from California that moved to Norman to work at some kind of private weather company.  Another guy that worked there moved from the Boston area.  The both had some sort of Meteorology degrees.  And they both purchased homes a year or two after moving to Norman.  I suppose thats what you want, not college degree holding kids working at Pei Wei and Discount Tire in UNP!


 Money for research at OU has been increasing. Several years ago the city said that meteorology was a billion dollar industry in Norman.

OU meteorology is a great example of what Norman could try to capitalize with other strong OU programs that could also create quality spin off jobs
.
As OU has improved its national academic standing significantly but not very much else besides meteorology has been taken advantage in terms of good jobs by the city of Norman. 
This needs to change and be made a priority by Norman city leaders.

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## venture

> Again it’s about making it a priority. Given the histories involved with the 2 the candidate who won is more likely to have the development of high quality jobs as a priority. With more high quality jobs we are much more likely to have more high quality development.


So if Williams during his first term spends more time on social issues, which from his point of view would be conservative/evangelical views, would you vote against him at the next election? Considering he didn't spend the majority of his time working on the issues that caused you to vote for him.

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## ou48A

> So if Williams during his first term spends more time on social issues, which from his point of view would be conservative/evangelical views, would you vote against him at the next election? Considering he didn't spend the majority of his time working on the issues that caused you to vote for him.



Unless there is some overriding concern like we had in this past election I will vote for the candidate who makes adding high quality jobs their biggest priority.

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## Questor

The speed humps and traffic calming circles are a horrible waste of money, and damaging to cars.  People in huge SUVs just drive over them at full speed like they are nothing, while folks in smaller cars can barely take them at 5 mph.  They have to be one of the worst ideas the city has ever had.  Maybe second only to setting up a sobriety check point on I-35 itself.

ou48A, I sort of agree with you and sort of don't.  I think the city has at times focused too much on the wrong things.  I think that is why Moore has been able to pull off so many retail coups lately.  But at the same time, we're a college town and it is almost unheard of for a college town not to have some of this going on, and in the big scheme of things equality issues are no longer the interest of only a few people... in most major cities it's a given... for most younger people it's the accepted norm.  I think about all of the outrage expressed at the council meeting a year or two ago about the gay equality resolution and can't help but think that the way the protesters behaved much more severely damaged our city in the eyes of our most likely potential workforce demographic than the councilors pushing any sort of agenda.  I think from that standpoint the protest activity was bad economics.  The city should have just passed something and everyone moved on without a peep.

What I don't understand is why isn't the city more proactive about business and research startups?  I think the National Weather Center was great for Norman for many reasons, especially for the collaborative environment it creates.  OU has been building other collaborative facilities focused in other areas.  Why hasn't the city tried to build a multi-story office building somewhere that contains lots of meeting rooms, conference areas, offices, wifi, and so on like that building in downtown okc... that cooperative... I can't think of the name of it.  Anyway, if we are trying to recruit young entrepreneurs who have just graduated from OU and are working some interesting R&D in the hopes of turning it into a business, why not provide some cheap office space for them to do that in, that they can rent infrequently as needed, maybe even just by the hour?  Why not provide common collaborative areas for them to brainstorm with other entrepreneurs?  It is crazy that we don't have something like that, and if we do it is crazy that it is not more well-known.  There's that tiny little building off of Campus Corner that supposedly is into this sort of thing, but come on.  Norman set your sights higher.

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

I agree the speed bumps have been poorly done, but it is a challenge to slow down young show-offs aching for DUI or manslaughter charges.  blangtang, you hit my nail on the head with your last line.  OU brings in a lot of people and money and productive energy.  As a professor, our mayor is not just crunchy granola.  She is doing great things to develop young women's political talents, sorely needed in this state, whose status of women ranks among the lowest of the low.

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## Mary Wollstonecraft

Questor, thank you for these great constructive insights & suggestions. It is often a challenge to get the best job candidates at the university precisely because of the bigotry here that gets so much national press.  The social & environmental values that shape Norman's city plan & urban desgin have enormous consequences for the quality of higher education possible in this state.  I am amazed at how seldom this fact gets acknowledged.

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## kevinpate

Questor, there used to be a foundation  that operated a business incubator.  Over on E Main a block or three past Porter if memory serves.  I'm uncertain if that is still in place or not.

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