# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  New Bar/Restaurant in Bricktown

## king183

Has this been mentioned elsewhere?  Today, I learned that a business group is going to "develop" that big grass lot by the canal in Bricktown (I think it's just east of Bourbon Street...not 100% sure...it's basically the grass lot that's across the canal from Mickey Mantle's restaurant).  But here's the deal: it's not going to be a new building as far as I can tell. It's going to be turned into an open-air patio bar/restaurant.  Pretty neat idea, I think. I learned this from speaking to an OKC restaurant consultant who is working on the project.

The only problem I see is, according to the consultant, they plan to shut it down completely when it turns cold and no one wants to sit outside.  Who knows what they will do during big rains that are prevalent in April and other months?  Maybe this will be a prelude to a new building there.

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## kevinpate

Over time there have been several proposals for that open square, including one or more that incorporated the grassy knoll space just across the canal from it.
It would be nice to see something (a) properly financed (b) permanent and, (c) appropriately styled for the area.  Not sure an open air cafe is the best use, but then again, it's not like I've raised any funds or come up with any better idea, so perhaps I will just hush and go fix some eggs now.

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## dankrutka

Not a bad idea if done properly...

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## SkyWestOKC

I'd like an open-air plaza type thing with room for a market (like a tent type market). Could rent ground space to tent-style shops and food places. Kind of like the food court at Festival of the Arts, but cheaper food. Would add a different dimension to the canal and Bricktown, instead of the traditional restaurant and bar.

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## OSUMom

> I'd like an open-air plaza type thing with room for a market (like a tent type market). Could rent ground space to tent-style shops and food places. Kind of like the food court at Festival of the Arts, but cheaper food. Would add a different dimension to the canal and Bricktown, instead of the traditional restaurant and bar.


I like this idea.

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## stlokc

Well, I haven't raised any money or done any work either, but as long as we're just talking about things we wish for, I don't want to see another plaza with a fountain, even if it does have some kind of open-air bar. There are open seating areas within a block or two of that lot in Lower Bricktown. For that unique space, it would be much more perferable if we could get a brick structure of 3-5 stories that would use the whole lot, match the existing building stock, and add some density.

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## stlokc

Sid, I get it. 
But I also think that if someone puts a couple hundred thousand in there to build a patio and some minor structure, we can pretty much kiss an idea for a real building on that lot goodbye for a long time. Right now it's in a state where it is "ready" for a building without demolition needed. Add the cost of "demolition" and it will be harder to find a buyer. 
And maybe I'm wrong about Lower Bricktown, but I do seem to remember a patio area in front of the movie theater with more than enough room for tables, etc.
I do see the need for more foot traffic on the "lower" level of the canal which is why my ideal building would have retail/restaurant space on the canal level.
But anyway, we're just kind of dreaming. I guess I live on the hope that since that is such prime space, it will gravitate to the "highest, best use."

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## Kerry

Anything that requires the removal of grass and/or gravel is a step in the right direction.

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## ljbab728

> I'd like an open-air plaza type thing with room for a market (like a tent type market). Could rent ground space to tent-style shops and food places. Kind of like the food court at Festival of the Arts, but cheaper food. Would add a different dimension to the canal and Bricktown, instead of the traditional restaurant and bar.


That sounds like a nice idea but I doubt that the existing businesses would appreciate someone renting space for something like that in competition with them.  It's kind of like the controversy about food trucks or sidewalk food carts in that area.

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## Midtowner

It's probably the most unique development opportunity in the state.  I'd hate to see it wasted on anything not the highest and best use for the property.  As much as the property would probably sell for, I have a very hard time thinking someone would buy it to put an open-air patio on it.  

And of course, that same expectation is probably what has kept anything from actually happening there.

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## betts

I'm a bit confused here.  Are they going to construct an enclosed kitchen?  I would think there would have to be some sort of awning over it as well.  If they've got an enclosed kitchen and make it attractive, I think it's an interesting idea.  It's also one that would be easy to take down, if the landowner gets an offer to develop the lot.

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## Larry OKC

Does anyone know or have pics of what was there before the Canal was put in? Has it always been vacant?

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## Jettmiester

maybe the grassy area could be used for nude sunbathing till it gets a building? That would definately attract many onlookers. No dollars needed for investment.  :Wink:

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## Larry OKC

LOL.. the Mayor said no the the womens LFL and you think he would go for nude sunbathing in "family friendly" Bricktown? Never mind the adult only bars and clubs... LOL

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## Spartan

Capt. Norm's Dockside Bar..

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## Kerry

> Capt. Norm's Dockside Bar..


Norm's is going to be on the other side of the canal and west a bit.

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## soonerguru

> That sounds like a nice idea but I doubt that the existing businesses would appreciate someone renting space for something like that in competition with them.  It's kind of like the controversy about food trucks or sidewalk food carts in that area.


You know, this was a turning point for me on Bricktown. Before they went to town arguing against street food vendors, I really cared about Bricktown and what the owners there thought. Now, I can't even remember the last time I spent an evening there. The fact they would argue against things like food carts and vendors that draw people downtown says a lot about why Bricktown is struggling. They are largely clueless.

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## Spartan

Oh I thought it was the outdoor bar. 2 new bars are going onto the Canal?

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## okclee

> You know, this was a turning point for me on Bricktown. Before they went to town arguing against street food vendors, I really cared about Bricktown and what the owners there thought. Now, I can't even remember the last time I spent an evening there. The fact they would argue against things like food carts and vendors that draw people downtown says a lot about why Bricktown is struggling. They are largely clueless.


I don't think Bricktown is struggling.

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## J. Pitman

> You know, this was a turning point for me on Bricktown. Before they went to town arguing against street food vendors, I really cared about Bricktown and what the owners there thought. Now, I can't even remember the last time I spent an evening there. The fact they would argue against things like food carts and vendors that draw people downtown says a lot about why Bricktown is struggling. They are largely clueless.


You can't understand why someone who's spent millions of dollars to develop a restaurant or bar might come out against food carts?

Bricktown draws millions of visitors a year.  It might not be somewhere you  patronize anymore, but many people still do.

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## Kerry

> You can't understand why someone who's spent millions of dollars to develop a restaurant or bar might come out against food carts?
> 
> Bricktown draws millions of visitors a year. It might not be somewhere you patronize anymore, but many people still do.


A bricktown restaurant that opposes a hotdog vendor is kind of like a 3 or 4 star hotel operator being opposed to this:

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## J. Pitman

> A bricktown restaurant that opposes a hotdog vendor is kind of like a 3 or 4 star hotel operator being opposed to this:


For the record, there is a hotdog vendor in bricktown.  She's there every weekend.  The real issue, as I remember it, was a food truck owned by a local restaurant group that setting up shop in a parking lot.

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## Spartan

But J. Pitman, don't you think Bricktown could be even better if it was less of a controlled environment for the benefit of certain restaurants? Why would an entertainment district constantly develop a reputation for opposing arts festivals, music festivals, street vendors, and other things like that? It doesn't make sense.

Just put a moratorium on restaurants if you're really concerned about cannibalizing eachother's restaurant profits. But it shouldn't be a district built for restaurant profits. You said in another thread that you appreciated the vibrancy of Brookside, and how many people there were on the streets. Bricktown lacks that vibrant feel because of how it's become a controlled environment, and they've gone out of their way to keep it a collection of restaurants by killing any possibilities that could compete for importance in the district. 

Then we say that we want Bricktown to have retail? I think that is so much more likely to happen with different festivals and street vendors. Those would help move Bricktown into becoming a district where you can do more than just eat. Right now, realistically what can you do in Bricktown? You can eat. Watch the latest pop culture movies with popcorn. You can see minor league baseball on certain days. You can go clubbing at night if you're 21. If you're from out of town, you can sleep overnight. That's it. You're not really going to come and stroll through Bricktown, just because the canal has lost its vibrancy. There is zero art whatsoever in the district. There is virtually no retail. Retail would happen sooner if Bricktown would ever embrace new ideas like festivals and street vendors. People don't want to shop somewhere that has virtually zero affordable food options. Street vendors would be a huge-win, people would just grab a corn dog or an icecream on the street while they're shopping...and people who want restaurants would still go to a restaurant. You're not going to sell more $20 steaks by making it the only option in a district. Some food trucks actually tend to attract their own following.. 

These things that bring people out onto the street don't exist in Bricktown. The thing that has kept it in business, and prevented it from having to reinvent itself like other districts are constantly doing, is the event business. Without the Thunder and conventions, Bricktown would be forced to come up with something new.

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## J. Pitman

I don't own a restaurant so I don't really have a dog in the fight.  I was simply pointing out that someone who has spent money to develop a restaurant may not want a food truck to set up shop right across from the entrance of their restaurant.

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## Spartan

Right, obviously the connection is undeniable. It would just be nice if there was another (non-restaurant) perspective driving the bus in Bricktown.. someone more interested in focusing on a holistic approach toward developing Bricktown. The need for more than restaurants. The need for more hotels, definitely housing, offices, and especially, retail. Once Bricktown can get a significant amount of housing and retail, it has "arrived." Until then...

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## HOT ROD

let the market dictate it. 

Im sure there is pent up demand for street vendors in Bricktown. And I totally agree that the merchants must be complete idiots to think lowly streetcart vendors would take away their business. That's says something about their business/marketing segment or product and/or what they think of a city like OKC if they need to be the only players in town. Last I checked, Bricktown was an entertainment district that was open to all of OKC.

And if I recall correctly, the real issue was an out of state company wanted to open a 'festival' in one of the Bricktown streets for a summer weekend. The Bricktown merchants disapproved it and wanted the city to follow suit. But I believe the city approved it, just like they would/should any other festival OR STREETCART vendor who pays the application for a license and follows the rules. 

It is the last mentioned statement, of which I have the most concern about Bricktown and OKC more or less, in general. These people feel entitled to exclusive control/rights of Bricktown or have a cut from any outsiders just because they are property owners or restaurant operators. Yet they want to have the freedom to run their business the way they see fit - a hypocritical double standard; when in reality, this 'festival' is likely to bring additional business to Bricktown in what otherwise probably is a dead weekend (as Im sure the city made them pick a weekend that didn't already have something going on ....). 

And Im sure the same people who originally wanted to go to bricktown to visit Nonna's will not all of the sudden change their mind since a Chicago Hot Dog stand opened up across the street. .... In fact, the energy created by street vendors, buskers, and other URBAN performers creates a vibe that usually attracts a critical mass of people - which usually represents increased business for everyone involved.

Please grow up and become the Big League City you say you are. .... (all big cities have streetcart vendors, by the way. ..)

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## swilki

Spartan and Hot Rod  :Congrats:  :Bow:

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## Kerry

If a food truck can put a $1 million restaurant out of business I am going into the food truck industry.  That is some serious ROI.

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## SkyWestOKC

The only thing food carts will negatively affect for bricktown restaurants is spur of the moment spending. For example, a couple that just left the movie theatre, is deciding whether to go in to Zio's or just call it a night and go home. On the way to Zio's they see a food cart, and decide to just pickup a few hot dogs and walk down the canal. It would not change already planned spending (As noted above in the thread with the example couple going to Nonna's)

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## okclee

> Oh I thought it was the outdoor bar. 2 new bars are going onto the Canal?


Can anyone answer this question?

We know of Cap't Norm's Dockside Bar.

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## mcca7596

> Can anyone answer this question?
> 
> We know of Cap't Norm's Dockside Bar.


I think there was just a misunderstanding on the location. We originally thought this was going on the grassy lot rather than the north side of the canal.

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## EBAH

> The only thing food carts will negatively affect for bricktown restaurants is spur of the moment spending. For example, a couple that just left the movie theatre, is deciding whether to go in to Zio's or just call it a night and go home. On the way to Zio's they see a food cart, and decide to just pickup a few hot dogs and walk down the canal. It would not change already planned spending (As noted above in the thread with the example couple going to Nonna's)



Agreed, also, most of the carts are open 'till 2-2:30 AM, the restaurants are almost all closed by then.  STREET FOOD=DRUNK FOOD

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## J. Pitman

Make no mistake, I'm not against food carts or food trucks, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of a restaurant owner.

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## Spartan

> Make no mistake, I'm not against food carts or food trucks, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of a restaurant owner.


And make no mistake, we do appreciate sometimes being reminded of the different perspectives of looking at things. Sometimes it's far best to be reminded that a perspective exists by someone who is more impartial and level-headed, rather than by someone who is highly polarized on one side of an issue.

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## bluedogok

> Make no mistake, I'm not against food carts or food trucks, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of a restaurant owner.


It has become a flash point down here as well with the proliferation of "trailer food" and "trailer food parks" scattered around the Central Austin area. Many are serving food types that compete with more upscale, sit down type of restaurants and that has caused some friction and some businesses lobbying to get passed and use laws/ordinances to go against their competition. What was funny is one truck food vendor got his own business in trouble with some of his lobbying because they included his type of business in one of the ordinances and not just trailers.

There is no "good answer" that would make everyone happy, but I tend to agree with Kerry. If a highly invested sit down restaurant is going to fail because of food carts or trailers, then the business was bound to fail any way. They have many other deeply rooted problems than just having competition from a cart.

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## betts

There's a bunch of work being done on the farthest NE building at the corner of Main and Russell Perry.  There is still a "For Lease" sign up, but I saw multiple trucks pulled up and people working on the inside.

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