# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  Bricktown change in attitude?

## ljbab728

http://newsok.com/brokers-say-era-of...ad_story_title

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## mcca7596

Hopefully all the property squatters will realize that their asking prices are unrealistic.

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## Thunder

While we are on the topic of Bricktown...

I have always wondered about this for years...

Bricktown a named district in OKC or an actual town on its own?

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## dankrutka

It's a town on it's own. The mayor is the bouncer at Rok Bar and city hall is Tapwerks...






J/k, Thunder. It's a district.

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## UnFrSaKn

Just noticed the date is from 2003... oh well.

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## Pete

There has been some progress, such as ACM @ UCO taking the upper floors (and buying) the one large building.

I'm hoping that once the Deep Deuce projects are relatively complete and full that it will spur some of the owners to rework the upper floors of many of those buildings into offices and living units.

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## betts

I'm excited about development of the Sherman Iron Works too.  I just wonder why there was no fanfare about the development.  Is there concern that this is another planned development that won't ever happen?  Main Street would be a great place for a string of retail and the Sherman Iron Works is a great building.

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## UnFrSaKn

Here's a Google Street View link for those who might not know where it is.

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## G.Walker

> I'm excited about development of the Sherman Iron Works too.  I just wonder why there was no fanfare about the development.  Is there concern that this is another planned development that won't ever happen?  Main Street would be a great place for a string of retail and the Sherman Iron Works is a great building.


I think this announcement of the "The Factory" is old news, if you read the caption under to picture its starts by stating Oklahoma City August, 13, 2003. Someone please clarify, again, its hard to get actual facts straight is certain articles...

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## UnFrSaKn

Check this out... some old photos of Bricktown. I don't remember the Rock Island Freight Station. I literally don't have any memory of it from when these pictures were taken. I didn't have any interest in such things then. There's also a lot of photos of the Sherman Iron Works building.

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## Just the facts

> I think this announcement of the "The Factory" is old news, if you read the caption under to picture its starts by stating Oklahoma City August, 13, 2003. Someone please clarify, again, its hard to get actual facts straight is certain articles...


The Factory died a long time ago.  This is old old old news.

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## betts

> I think this announcement of the "The Factory" is old news, if you read the caption under to picture its starts by stating Oklahoma City August, 13, 2003. Someone please clarify, again, its hard to get actual facts straight is certain articles...


Ah, didn't notice the date on that caption. So it IS another one of the plans that never came to fruition.  That's sad, because it's a great building.  Everytime I walk by I think about what a shame it is that it hasn't been developed.

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## warreng88

> Check this out... some old photos of Bricktown. I don't remember the Rock Island Freight Station. I literally don't have any memory of it from when these pictures were taken. I didn't have any interest in such things then. There's also a lot of photos of the Sherman Iron Works building.


If I remember correctly, that was where the current police station is on Main between Walnut and Stills.

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## Steve

What you're seeing is a very old and incorrect cutline on the Sherman Iron Works photos and is the result of cutting too many people and thinking a damn computer can take up the slack. Notice in print the cutline is fine. But the computers think they're smarter than the humans, and somehow it picked up the original cutline for this archive photo (fresh photos are not taken in such instances because ...)
Forgive me for ranting.... but geez..... asking for a fix now.

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## metro

Long long overdue article but good. Hope this issue gets more media attention or nothing will change

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## Just the facts

Remember about 6 months ago when one of our OKCTalk family members mentioned the impending demise of Bricktown as competitor neighborhoods start getting established, and every one ripped him a new one.  Bricktown has maybe 12 months left to get their act together or what you see in Bricktown now is all you will ever see in Bricktown.  And by ‘get their act together’ I mean they better find a way to introduce residential, destination retail, and start rethinking Lower Bricktown (although L.B. might already be too messed up to save).

Deep Deuce is about one or two projects away from providing enough amenities that people living there won't have much reason to leave Deep Deuce, and if they do venture out, it will be to AA and Midtown.  Being the only fish in the pond is great until 3 more fish show up.

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## Larry OKC

> Check this out... some old photos of Bricktown. I don't remember the Rock Island Freight Station. I literally don't have any memory of it from when these pictures were taken. I didn't have any interest in such things then. There's also a lot of photos of the Sherman Iron Works building.


Great pics...thanks for sharing...LOVE buildings with "character' and that Blue Door pic is swimming in it!

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## metro

> Remember about 6 months ago when one of our OKCTalk family members mentioned the impending demise of Bricktown as competitor neighborhoods start getting established, and every one ripped him a new one.  Bricktown has maybe 12 months left to get their act together or what you see in Bricktown now is all you will ever see in Bricktown.  And by ‘get their act together’ I mean they better find a way to introduce residential, destination retail, and start rethinking Lower Bricktown (although L.B. might already be too messed up to save).
> 
> Deep Deuce is about one or two projects away from providing enough amenities that people living there won't have much reason to leave Deep Deuce, and if they do venture out, it will be to AA and Midtown.  Being the only fish in the pond is great until 3 more fish show up.


Here here, this site definitely has favoritism depending on the poster. Bricktown appears to be willingly choosing the path of West End, and to no surprise. OKC rarely choses to learn from history

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## Spartan

> Remember about 6 months ago when one of our OKCTalk family members mentioned the impending demise of Bricktown as competitor neighborhoods start getting established, and every one ripped him a new one.  Bricktown has maybe 12 months left to get their act together or what you see in Bricktown now is all you will ever see in Bricktown.  And by ‘get their act together’ I mean they better find a way to introduce residential, destination retail, and start rethinking Lower Bricktown (although L.B. might already be too messed up to save).
> 
> Deep Deuce is about one or two projects away from providing enough amenities that people living there won't have much reason to leave Deep Deuce, and if they do venture out, it will be to AA and Midtown.  Being the only fish in the pond is great until 3 more fish show up.


I am kinda on the fence with this one. I could easily see either side, honestly. You might not be wrong, but I hope you are. None of us want to see this happen to Bricktown. I also hate to accuse leadership of being piss poor. But there has to be something you can do about this squatting. I haven't even seen them try. 

We're going to have to wait and see what Bricktown leadership really means depending on how they handle this House of Bedlam joke of a proposal. We've all been expecting leadership to come from the Bricktown Association, but that's nuts, it's just a neighborhood association. Leadership must come from the city and from the Bricktown Urban Design Commission. Avis chairs it, and she also owns the Rock Island Plow Building. That group can also decide what happens with the grassy knoll. The likelihood that a worthy development goes there if they deny the current proposal is obviously infinitely higher than if they approve the current proposal...

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## mcca7596

I don't think that Bricktown will ever lose its appeal to people from small town Oklahoma and the suburbs simply because it's mostly all they know and has been their main experience with urban design in Oklahoma. I think Bricktown will continue to thrive as a purely entertainment district, but might not ever become the urban neighborhood we all hoped it would 10 years ago. As others have pointed out too, it really doesn't do much for locals anymore.

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## betts

> I don't think that Bricktown will ever lose its appeal to people from small town Oklahoma and the suburbs simply because it's mostly all they know and has been their main experience with urban design in Oklahoma. I think Bricktown will continue to thrive as a purely entertainment district, but might not ever become the urban neighborhood we all hoped it would 10 years ago. As others have pointed out too, it really doesn't do much for locals anymore.


On the other hand, I spent happy hour last Friday at Norm's Dockside with a bunch of friends who live around downtown.  We rotate where we eat, to include Bricktown as well as the other areas such as Deep Deuce, Automobile Alley, Film Row and Midtown.  Before Thunder games Bricktown is hopping, as well as on Friday and Saturday nights.

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## mcca7596

good to know!

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## ljbab728

> Before Thunder games Bricktown is hopping, as well as on Friday and Saturday nights.


That's why equating Bricktown to places like the West End in Dallas fails.  The West End was basically dependant on itself to attract crowds.

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## Doug Loudenback

My 2 cents: 

Although comparisons can be made to other cities, I think that Bricktown is rather unique in the comparison process and I don't think that those comparisons are at all useful to our own analysis in the main. Oklahoma City is not a megalopolis like Dallas and probably never will be and comparisons to Dallas' west end are meaningless (other than to learn from its mistakes).

Closer to home/comparison, we are not like Ft. Worth which has essentially re-created a downtown entertainment district, complete with false historic fronts, to newly create an entertainment area similar, but less historically authentic as far as buildings are concerned, to Bricktown. That said, the Ft.Worth area has much greater walkability than our own Bricktown, and perhaps lessons can be learned from Ft. Worth ... not to mention that a fine transportation hub exists on the east side of downtown which can take passengers to a lot of different places, including an Amtrak train to/from Oklahoma City.

We are not like San Antonio which, unlike Oklahoma City, did not have ever so much of its historic downtown destroyed in an ill-fated massive urban renewal concept/city project. San Antonio has preserved, unintentionally or not, its old dilapidated downtown stuff and that old dilapidated downtown stuff is seeing an excellent renaissance today, if my visit there in July 2011 serves to demonstrate. Old San Antonio downtown dilapidated stuff is increasingly becoming part of San Antonio's downtown charm. Alas, in Oklahoma City, we have pretty much destroyed our "old stuff" in the CBD whereat the same kinds of things could have occurred here and, more, we don't seem to have a particularly high priority on preserving what little of the old CBD stuff that remains. More and more, our CBD is strictly modern business buildings with a few parks, hotels, and restaurants thrown in, but it is decidedly NOT historic or charming and is NOT entertainment in its focus and it is absolutely NOT concerned about old stuff, if recent activities are the measure. For those who are nostalgic, like me, it's probably best that we let go of the notion that Oklahoma City's CBD can ever be "charming" again ... the potential for that opportunity has come and it has gone. Almost everything in the city's CBD that could be dubbed as charming and revitalized is long gone, and very much so. The SandRidge Commons project placed a punctuation mark on the end of charm in Okc's CBD.

If one hankers for old stuff in downtown Oklahoma City, one either has to look at old photos and history books or one has to cross the BNSF RR tracks and go into Bricktown, pretty much the singular focus for entertainment in the central city, pretty much the CBD area that has been fairly preserved, and no other *destination* alternatives for those purposes seriously exist ... and I don't at all mean to detract from the very nice developments along Auto Alley, Film Row, and Midtown which have strong elements of entertainment and historical preservation or to say that those developments are not really neat. They are. But I think that anyone would be hard pressed to say that the CBD has any serious entertainment *and* historical preservation *destination*  area other than Bricktown.

Bricktown, as we are all aware, has had its growing pains but what else could be reasonably expected? Any economic area would. It has had plenty of investors who caught the vision of what Bricktown could be but who weren't interested in participating in the development process but who were instead more interested in flipping their acquired properties to other buyers who actually did have an interest in physical development, if the price was right. Those people were/are not interested in the city, they were/are interested in their own pocketbooks. On the other hand, what city doesn't have its share of capitalists who have less interest on being "enlightened" capitalists than in just turning a quick buck. I doubt that our city is unique in having such non-productive capitalists. People who are prone to greed just exist, and they exist everywhere.

Notwithstanding, Bricktown has hung on, has grown and developed, and has become the single greatest destination for entertainment in the city. Enough business interests exist in the existing Bricktown businesses to make it so. And, in my estimation, it is getting better all the time.

Sure, I'd like to see more ... more movie venues, more retail, more of everything fun and entertaining, and sure, I'd like to see those who are solely interested in flipping a property for a profit who don't have an ounce of civic interest in development get a short shrift, but I doubt that they are losing any sleep over it since they don't really give a care about their non-contribution to the city's development. And, don't forget that, relatively speaking, Bricktown is still a baby in its longevity. For a baby, it is a heck of a place.

So, naysayers, keep naysaying and that may well help the future course of Bricktown. But don't lose sight and perspective of all that has been accomplished and the fabulous prospect, I think, of that which is yet to come.

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## Steve

> Remember about 6 months ago when one of our OKCTalk family members mentioned the impending demise of Bricktown as competitor neighborhoods start getting established, and every one ripped him a new one.  Bricktown has maybe 12 months left to get their act together or what you see in Bricktown now is all you will ever see in Bricktown.  And by ‘get their act together’ I mean they better find a way to introduce residential, destination retail, and start rethinking Lower Bricktown (although L.B. might already be too messed up to save).
> 
> Deep Deuce is about one or two projects away from providing enough amenities that people living there won't have much reason to leave Deep Deuce, and if they do venture out, it will be to AA and Midtown.  Being the only fish in the pond is great until 3 more fish show up.


In 12 months we'll be seeing a new hotel being built in Bricktown, and likely, the conversion of upper floors of some of the warehouses into housing. I'll make a bet real quick that Bricktown will be as busy on Friday nights in one year as it was last night.

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## Just the facts

If they add residential then yes Bricktown will continue to thrive.  That is what I said.  However, for every hotel they add, that many locals will find somewhere else downtown to spend their time.  In the future, as Deep Deuce continues to develop and housing in Midtown get established those people won't be making a stop in Bricktown before or after a Thunder game, they will have their own neighborhoods to support.

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## foodiefan

> Here here, this site definitely has favoritism depending on the poster. Bricktown appears to be willingly choosing the path of West End, and to no surprise. OKC rarely choses to learn from history


Metro. . .knowing you like to be precisely correct and all. . . "Hear, hear is an expression used as a short, repeated form of hear him, hear him. It represents a listener's agreement with the point being made by a speaker. It is often incorrectly spelled "here here".  :Tiphat:

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## metro

Thanks!

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## OKCHerbivore

I work in Bricktown (at ACM@UCO) and take my couple of days a week of walking from parking to the school to ponder why Bricktown feels like it does. I think it could still go the way of the West End, if it continues to try and be an entertainment ghetto only. It certainly works as one, but mostly for out of town folks. There has to be a balance occur at some point to where the neighborhood becomes an actual neighborhood. The interests in the area are so top-heavy with expensive properties and companies that there is no accountability to more mundane uses of the neighborhood, which matter to residents and locals. Of course this tax base is more reliable, but not more lucrative in a lot of ways (besides property taxes and such-which might not affect developers all that much outside of rents/leases). 

I walk past the numerous misspelled-on-purpose bars and clubs, and I know that the city needs these things. But I still marvel at the waste of land and building space that keeps the canal from feeling like anything more than a prop in the background of a business. It feels too sparse-and for locals, the businesses, with some key exceptions, seem more like tawdry tourist shops than anything useful to a local. If there's anything we are seeing now, it's that localism has much more steam than theme-park like neighborhoods, even if the result is the same. For an out of town guest to "feel local," like they are participating in a "real" OKC is just as potent a tourist reality as an "entertainment" district, AND it helps locals not feel so icky to visit. Bricktown has quite a bit of character as it is-trying to trump up the "theme" of the area just makes it feel a little overcooked. People can see that the building was a factory, no need to call it The Factory. 

I do think the grocery in Deep Deuce/ Triangle will help Bricktown, only if it seems still a little unlikely that people in those hoods will walk (OKCers walk!?) all the way to AA or Midtown, or wait the 45 min between busses to jump over, so Bricktown will more or less have a grocer (I will be there a lot, and grab groceries there on the way home up north central). The integration of Deep Deuce/Triangle and Bricktown will be good for them all, I'm hoping. Just imagine when an intermodal transit system finds a home nearby...(in 50 years?). 

I'm glad to work down there, and I keep warming to the area each week. Here's to filling in the space between the cheeseball clubs with pubs, homes, vital retail, and workaday stuff. It's amazing how sexy a hardware store can be if you live near it, and can walk to get a tool-not drive 15 minutes.

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## Celebrator

So well put, OKCHerbivore.  We moved to the OKC from Celebration, FL, a new urban/touristy neighborhood adjacent to Walt Disney World in Orlando.  My wife and I loved living there, but rarely patronized the businesses that were "downtown" because we had no use for them!  The locals don't need a doll shop for heaven's sake! 

 We always take visitors to Bricktown, but never hang out down there with them to eat, and we never hang out down there if we don't have visitors from out of town...why?  The retail down there is not worth window shopping and it lacks a "real feel" as you alluded to above. Bricktown needs the kind of shops that are in the Plaza District!  Even getting some well-known typically mall-based retail stores to move down there would attract more locals to shop and hang out there.  (It works, see Winter Park, FL's Park Ave which has Restoration Hardware, Pottery Barn plus locally-based shops and restaurants: http://www.insideflorida.com/detail/park-ave/ 

Bricktown just doesn't feel much more than an attraction right now (And keeping with the Orlando comparisons, Bricktown feels more like Downtown Disney, rather than Park Ave. and way more locals hang out at Park Ave.), and I long for BT to be a dynamic neighborhood to go down and spend time and money in.  I believe it will be just that someday with the right planning and guidance by and from all stakeholders.

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## Just the facts

Bricktown needs to decide pretty soon if it wants to be the OKC version of Fisherman's Wharf or the Marina District.  It can't be both.

Celebrator - I cringe everytime I head Disney mentioned as an example for anything urban related.  Thanks for posting that link to Park Ave, the wife has been dying to do something so maybe a drive down to Winter Park might be in the cards soon.  When I want my urban fix we usually head down to St Augustine, park once, and walk/shop/eat for hours.

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## Steve

Celebrator, I understand your criticism. I'm curious about your opinion of the Red Dirt Emporium, Bricktown Marketplace and The Painted Door.

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## Larry OKC

*OKCHerbivore*: great post..the only thing I might take exception is to things like the "Factory". it isn't always obvious what the building was originally used for and I like the nod to our history. Seems like we have so little of it left and more vanishing.

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## ljbab728

> *OKCHerbivore*: great post..the only thing I might take exception is to things like the "Factory". it isn't always obvious what the building was originally used for and I like the nod to our history. Seems like we have so little of it left and more vanishing.


I agree, Larry.  It's similar to the Ghiradelli Square building in San Franscisco.  The name pays homage to it's past use and history.

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## bombermwc

An easy way to fix some of this is to put a destination business in that locals want to frequent. Something like Dave and Busters would have been a good draw to get people to go to Bricktown some time other than the weekend. Of course, the large footprint would make it hard to fit in since I believe anything that goes in there needs to be able to be urban and go UP, not OUT. But hey, I'm sure something could be figured out in a multi-story configuration to make it work. What better use for some of those upper floors in those old warehouses than the game rooms? The square foot per floor in something like the Hunzicker building would be a great fit. That way you can seperate the "kid" games and the "adult" games. Food on ground floor, kid games next floor up, pool/darts/bar up the following upper floors.

I just think something along that concept would be a good draw. You either eat or see a movie right now. And everything in lower Bricktown is as suburban as a strip mall...drive up, shop, leave. Had we actually gotten the Sega Gameworks, maybe that would have been a draw for some stuff too. But we're always seeing that it's difficult to keep retailers in there....sound familiar (automobile alley). I don't think it should ever turn into a place where Old Navy is....same argument I had against it for AA. We really need unique destinations that aren't available in other places. Heck, throw in some laser tag (there are only like 2 others in town now...far NW and almost Norman, so it's a good middle location). SOMETHING to bring people in on a normal day. Otherwise we're doomed to the dead after 5 Sunday-Thursday curse.

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## betts

I hate to keep bringing up the Old Market in Omaha, but that's what I wish Bricktown were more like.  Here's a link to the retail there.  The only chain, I believe, is the Overland Sheepskin Co.  Everything else is local retail.  The shops are scattered throughout the district, with great local restaurants in between.  And then the flowers.....businesses have huge awnings lined with flower boxes that have their own irrigation system.  It's a really nice destination and the unique restaurants and shops make it as appealing for locals and visitors.  

http://www.oldmarket.com/results.aspx?cat=40

Perhaps when there are more residents living near Bricktown, we'll get more retail.  It would be a great draw for conventioneers as well, so I really don't understand why the chamber doesn't do more to promote retail there.

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## Rover

Until the focus changes from real estate speculation to actual development, Bricktown will not progress very quickly and will stay in jeopardy of being passed by.  The whole idea of developing the canal, ballpark, etc. was to create development, not to enable non-value added speculation.  I happen to think that passing on Funk's proposed development was a signal that it was only going to be an entertainment district.  I think Btown is at a very serious crossroads and needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up.

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## Pete

Some pretty big things are coming to Bricktown that will likely spur further development:  the streetcar and the multi-modal transit center.

I also think that when the projects in Deep Deuce are complete in another year or two, the success of the living units there in particular may finally force BT over the hump when it comes to apartments.

In the meantime, I don't see anything big happening there, other than the proposed hotels.  I'm sure it will continue to rock along as it has for a couple of decades now.

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## Just the facts

I guess it might be coming down to a tortoise and hare deal.  BT jumped out to an early lead because of MAPS spending but it seems MAPS money became the life blood.  Meanwhile, not a MAPS dollar was spent in Deep Deuce and while it started out slow it seems to have the stamina to make it to the end first, and by end, I mean an actual established neighborhood with no vacant land.

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## Pete

To be fair to Bricktown and the owners/developers there, we've seen very little renovation of old buildings anywhere in OKC, and that's about all there is in BT.

No matter your opinion of the Centennial and the rest of the Lower BT developments, they have all been a commercial success.  But that was all new construction, as is everything in Deep Deuce.

We've seen renovation to living units in Midtown but on a pretty small scale.

The economics of renovating old buildings into new living units and being to do it profitably still doesn't add up.  It's far easier for restaurant/bar space because the owner can demand much more rent.

I think lots of people want to renovate those old buildings but can't make the numbers work.  Considering the shrinking amount of downtown office space, it may be time to look at converting some of those upper levels to offices.

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## Urbanized

Funny, when we opened Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium and the Bricktown Marketplace over the past four years, we worked very hard not to be "icky" or "tawdry," but I guess we somehow missed the mark. This despite being the first store (the emporium) in the state that I am aware of to exclusively carry Oklahoma-themed and Made-in-Oklahoma items. We were being painfully aware (we thought) of appealing to not just visitors (who abound in Bricktown and are easy to target), but also locals (who still abound, but are more fickle and diverse in tastes and more difficult to target).

Local movement? We carry more Made-in-Oklahoma food items than nearly anyplace I know of, and have been doing so since 2007, before the "local" movement had picked up much steam if any in this market. We were one of the first members of KeepItLocalOK and have tirelessly tweeted, Facebooked and whatever else to anyone else who would listen about the virtues of Local. We proudly feature Oklahoma music and Oklahoma musicians. We were the first - and longtime - exclusive sponsor of the Oklahoma Rock Show on The Spy FM, hosted by two ACM faculty members, Ryan LaCroix and Lacey Lett. We invited local musicians to play in the store, and on our patio. Separate from us, the Chevy Bricktown Showcase has featured TONS of local musicians throughout the district for some time now. I have and intend to continue to employ ACM students.

We reached out to the Oklahoma Film and Music office to help us put Oklahoma films in the store, and recently started a dialog with DeadCenter about working more closely with them. We've partnered with the Oklahoma City Museum of Art on merchandise. Since day one we have partnered with Full Circle Books to have a great selection of books telling the story of our city and our state.

When we started the Bricktown Marketplace, we opened the door for local retailers to dip their toe in the Bricktown market. Still acutely desiring to "keep it local," we reached out to other districts in the city so that there would be representation of more than Bricktown when visitors arrive here. In some cases we offered this space at a drastic reduction in rent, because we wanted so much to include this diversity and allow visitors to sample ALL of Oklahoma City's offerings. I'm proud to say that when we opened we had vendors from the Plaza District (DNA Galleries, JuJu Gallery, Collected Thread and Istvan Gallery participated), Midtown, and Stockyards City. We still have a Plaza booth, maintained by DNA Galleries. Every one of our approximately 50 vendors is from Oklahoma, and most within the metro. The 6,000 sq ft we have there represents the largest locally-owned retail floorplate in ALL of downtown Oklahoma City.

But that's OK. Now that I know we are never going to be anything more than "icky" or "tawdry," it relieves a lot of pressure on me. I think I am going to put together a clearance sale on all of my thoughtfully-curated merchandise, and turn all of that cash into rubber tomahawks and made-in-China war bonnets, both of which I have until now refused to carry, but which know for a FACT I could sell by the container-load.

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## Steve

OKCHerbivore, I'm going to bet you've not stepped foot in the marketplace, emporium or painted door. But if you have, maybe you can explain a bit more as to why you would think they are "icky and taudry," or if you were referring to other shops.

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## Just the facts

Urbanized, I have you thought of opening a store in Deep Deuce that carries the food items you have available?  If not already, there will soon be 1,000 people living there that have to eat everyday and most of them have above average income for their age demographic.

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## Urbanized

In a word, no. Native Roots Market will be opening soon in Deep Deuce, carrying many if not most of the food items I do. And by the way, I welcome that and I'm very excited by it. But based on my partnerships and our current economy of scale, I'm pretty married to Bricktown locations for the foreseeable future. Also, I'm not really in the grocery business (though I carry a bunch of MIO food products), I'm in the "Oklahoma" business.

That doesn't mean I haven't thought about replicating the Red Dirt Emporium elsewhere in OKC and even the state. I think it would perhaps do even better in a mall or other location than it does in Bricktown, especially with minor retooling that eliminates the Bricktown-requisite souvenir merchandise. But we're interested first and foremost in improving the Bricktown experience, which is why we have put so much time, effort and expense into the current locations.

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## Spartan

> If they add residential then yes Bricktown will continue to thrive.  That is what I said.  However, for every hotel they add, that many locals will find somewhere else downtown to spend their time.  In the future, as Deep Deuce continues to develop and housing in Midtown get established those people won't be making a stop in Bricktown before or after a Thunder game, they will have their own neighborhoods to support.


I don't actually believe that there's an inverse relationship between out of town tourists and local crowd. I don't think we have a local crowd that is desperate to get away from all these flocks of tourists that we get here in Oklahoma. If that was realistic, then I think you'd have more of a point about the local crowd..

However there is something intrinsic that has to explain why Mid-town does more for locals these days than Bricktown. I hate to see downtown through the all-to-frequent "Bricktown first lens" but I don't think you can correct that with an anti-Bricktown bias, either, which some on this forum probably do have.

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## Pete

I think people are too hard on Bricktown.

Do you realize there are currently more than 50 bars/longues/pubs/restaurants in the area?  50!  And at least a couple of more have just opened or will soon, plus a completely remodeled Bricktown Brewery.

Plus, you have two new hotels that will be added into the mix to the two that have been completed in just the last few years.  AND, not only do you have ACM@UCO but they are greatly expanding and even bought their building.

Add to that a long sold-out condo complex, a big movie theater, a bowling lounge, live music, Bricktown Ballpark and some retail and there is a lot going on down there.


Yes, it could be a lot more and I think it will be in the near future, but I think too many people complain without recognizing how much is there and how much has been added just in the last few years.  And BTW, all those residential units in Deep Deuce are only going to help Bricktown.

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## Just the facts

I am probably as guilty as the next person - I keep forgetting Bricktown is a regional entertainment district and not a neighborhood.

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## Urbanized

I think it can/should be both. But I will ask these questions:

Why would a new hotel in Bricktown be something that drives locals further away, yet a new hotel in Deep Deuce is such a great thing?

Why does Bricktown have an almost universally-accepted restaurant reputation as "chains-only" and other districts such as Automobile Alley, Midtown and Western Avenue NOT get the same reputation while having very similar restaurant group makeup, and in some cases exactly the same?

I think sometimes there are a number of double standards applied when discussing this district.  It is an easy target and has few vocal advocates (Bricktown's own fault). 

I think one of Bricktown's biggest problems is that it was first. Everyone attached ALL of their hopes and dreams to it, and things didn't always take the path that everyone wanted. It also didn't have the advantage of watching other districts in OKC come together and use the others' failings or successes to instruct their own approach. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.

The ownership changes over the past couple of years have changed the landscape greatly. Many of the "squatters" people decry are no longer in the mix. There are new owners with new plans and new ways of looking at things. I think Bricktown's story is far from being written in stone at this point.

----------


## Pete

I think most are frustrated by the lack of development / redevelopment along the canal and he dearth of living units, and I can understand that.

But we also tend to overlook what is already there and those other things can and will probably still happen.


And I will say that every time I'm in town I end up down there for some reason and there are always throngs of people out and about.  It's nice to see that type of activity and it's the only place in town where it is happening.

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## dankrutka

> Why does Bricktown have an almost universally-accepted restaurant reputation as "chains-only" and other districts such as Automobile Alley, Midtown and Western Avenue NOT get the same reputation while having very similar restaurant group makeup, and in some cases exactly the same?


Are they the same? Let's take Automobile Alley as an example - Iguana's (local), Sara Sara Cupcakes (local), Panchinko Parlor (local), Red (local), Hideaway (Oklahoma). Are there any others in AA? Okay, so every single restaurant in AA is local or Oklahoma.

Bricktown has chains like Abuelos, Zio's, IHOP, McDonald's with some Oklahoma and local places also. 

So, I guess the reason people say AA is more local than Bricktown is because AA is more local than Bricktown.

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## Steve

Eh. Automobile Alley also has far less retail presence and history than Bricktown. Chains are coming to Automobile Alley....

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## Celebrator

> Celebrator, I understand your criticism. I'm curious about your opinion of the Red Dirt Emporium, Bricktown Marketplace and The Painted Door.


I like all of those places, they are a great start.  I think unique can be mixed with familiar (read: chain) and they can co-exist and do so successfully.

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## OKCHerbivore

Yipes! It's all gone nuclear! Internet world! 

I should have been more specific in describing some of the spots that seem to really speak well for bricktown, because of course (i only mentioned in passing, which was my bad) that there some exceptions to the general sense of "tawdriness" in the hood, and of course the aforementioned Bricktown Marketplace and Red Dirt Emporium (as well as Candy Mercantile, Bourbon St., Tapwerks, nice restaurants like Mantel and Mickey Mantle's, the banjo museum, Red Pin, Falcone's, etc. there's more) . Of course these places are valuable, well done, and hopefully will anchor the area for years and years. I know Archives just moved into BT Marketplace (I've been to Red Dirt and BT Market, Painted Door isn't really my deal) and I've loved that place since I was a kid when it was in Edmond. The movement of stuff like that into BT is very encouraging, and I'm sorry that didnt come across better in my post-I meant it to be pretty optimistic, especially when considering Deep Deuce and even some of the CBD will continue to be tied to the area and help balance it some with housing. 

Perhaps the frustration some have with the neighborhood comes from the marginalization those spots face in the overall sense of Bricktown as a neighborhood, and as one that is not simply for weekend evening visits and out of towners. Of course there are exceptions, and as more offices and homes arrive it becomes more and more of a workaday AND weekend spot. That's the hopeful vision for any inner city neighborhood: to be able to provide a dense network of goods and services. That phrase sounds bland, but it is what helps to skeleton a neighborhood, while the skin and clothes are all manner of distinctives. 

BT has done one of the best jobs of anywhere in OKC (of course, not much left in central OKC) of preserving historic buildings, allowing that image to color things, and of at least not using great storefronts to park cars inside (like AA does to a frustrating degree). The chain factor is a little high, but not over-the-top. Ironically, the idea of the area as a shopping magnet both intrigues me (adding a few chain anchors might be good to draw people in to the local spots that offer much more than the chains could anyways), but it also adds more competition with the local places. A tough balance anywhere. 

I hope my hopes somehow show as desiring BT to have more of a connection to the current movements of the city in terms of localism, urbanism, and transit. I know the hub will likely be there-but when? How do we help the rest of the city to see the immense value of Red Dirt and BT Marketplace and the like? How does it both keep a vibrant nightlife, and provide needed clubs (i'm biased because I'm not a clubgoing type, but I love Tapwerks) while not seeming like the area full of nappy meatmarkets to the rest of the burgeoning city? Of course that's not the only story of the area, but I get constant fears of Navy Pier or Louisville's 4th st (might be 3rd? can't remember) nonsense that really just caters to an unfortunately vapid sort of entertainment thing (in Louisville it overshadows Thomas Merton's epiphany site. sad.). 

BT was first to wake the city back up to itself: I remember it being Spaghetti Warehouse and blight, and that was it. It has roared into something lovely-I was thinking about it walking to classes today. Just like so many other things in our city, we can get frustrated to no end because we have actual hopes for it. I'm glad it elicits such emotional responses-it shows we care, and FWIW, we are on the same team. It's probably really accurate that because the "new" of BT has long worn off, people who seek the latest and greatest hot spot will get bored, but those folks don't build a lasting hood anyways. The hope is to blend the bursts of enthusiasm and big-$$ retailers and sales tax dollars (king in OKC) with some sort of functioning, daily neighborhood-where people don't feel the need to leave at night if they aren't going to a movie or dancing. And if they want to...they just have to walk a few blocks.

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## Steve

Good comments by all. My next question: Do any of the veterans of OKC Talk recognize a pattern in these threads? OKC Talk has been around since what? - 2004/05? It seems like every two years there's a discussion about how Bricktown's best days are over....

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## Thunder

> Good comments by all. My next question: Do any of the veterans of OKC Talk recognize a pattern in these threads? OKC Talk has been around since what? - 2004/05? It seems like every two years there's a discussion about how Bricktown's best days are over....


I'm not sure, but I know that Bricktown will continue to grow.  Slowly, yes due to armed agents carrying around loaded guns preventing Bricktown from gaining "Da Bomb" status, but we will get there one way or another.

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## Just the facts

> Why would a new hotel in Bricktown be something that drives locals further away, yet a new hotel in Deep Deuce is such a great thing?


Let me clarify my original comment.  I wasn't suggesting that a new hotel in Bricktown would drive away locals.  I was trying to make the point that people who frequent Bricktown will be some of the same people who end up moving into Deep Deuce, AA, Film District, and Midtown.  Once those people make the move from suburbia into their new urban location they will not need Bricktown because they will have their very own urban neighborhood to support.  Midtown and Deep Deuce are adding urban residents faster than Bricktown ever thought about.

Let me explain it a different way.  I was 17 when my friend Ron got his car first car.  I went everywhere with Ron.  We cruised for chicks, went camping and fishing, went to the mall - heck, I even helped him wash and wax it and chipped in some gas money.  But then when I was 19 I got my own car.  I didn't spend much time riding around with Ron after that and I sure didn't give him anymore gas money.  I had my own car to wash, wax, and put gas in.

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## MikeOKC

> Let me clarify my original comment.  I wasn't suggesting that a new hotel in Bricktown would drive away locals.  I was trying to make the point that people who frequent Bricktown will be some of the same people who end up moving into Deep Deuce, AA, Film District, and Midtown.  Once those people make the move from suburbia into their new urban location they will not need Bricktown because they will have their very own urban neighborhood to support.  Midtown and Deep Deuce are adding urban residents faster than Bricktown ever thought about.
> 
> Let me explain it a different way.  I was 17 when my friend Ron got his car first car.  I went everywhere with Ron.  We cruised for chicks, went camping and fishing, went to the mall - heck, I even helped him wash and wax it and chipped in some gas money.  But then when I was 19 I got my own car.  I didn't spend much time riding around with Ron after that and I sure didn't give him anymore gas money.  I had my own car to wash, wax, and put gas in.


I think you're taking neighborhood loyalty a bit too far. You're saying that people who live in DD will abandon Bricktown "because they'll have their own neighborhood to support." That's a fantasy. How many people sit around and decide that they aren't going to go up north May Ave because they need to "support" their own neighborhood out Northwest Expressway? If there's something I want - I go. I don't give a second thought to what district or neighborhood it's in. This would be times ten for these new walkable neighborhoods in DD and Bricktown. The boundary lines are invisible and people won't give a thought to "betraying" one or the other to go where they want to go. The growing areas around downtown aren't exactly Manhattan. In DD and Bricktown and AA, you can still almost scream at one end and be heard at the other.

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## Just the facts

MikeOKC - your shopping decisions are influenced by you traveling around in a car.  You don't mind traveling 4 miles to get a $2 item because you have a car, a wide road, and a large parking lot to make it all possible.  When you start moving around on foot how far you are willing to travel will change.  You sure won't be walking 4 miles for a $2 item and in an urban environment driving won't be an option, not because parking is a hassle, but because you don't have to; the $2 items will be available at the corner market.  I am not saying it is going to happen overnight, but it will happen.  The seeds of change have been planted.

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## Skyline

Would all of the Bricktown worries be solved, if a developer announced today that they will build a 250 unit apartment project in Bricktown?

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## BoulderSooner

bricktown .... Brix (local) bricktown brewery(local) The Mantle(local) bolaro (local)     lots and lots of local and oklahoma places in bricktown

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## Urbanized

> Are they the same? Let's take Automobile Alley as an example - Iguana's (local), Sara Sara Cupcakes (local), Panchinko Parlor (local), Red (local), Hideaway (Oklahoma). Are there any others in AA? Okay, so every single restaurant in AA is local or Oklahoma.
> 
> Bricktown has chains like Abuelos, Zio's, IHOP, McDonald's with some Oklahoma and local places also. 
> 
> So, I guess the reason people say AA is more local than Bricktown is because AA is more local than Bricktown.


You missed the nuances of my post.

Does Hideaway count as a chain? I would guess so, although that doesn't stop me from going to the one in AA about 4 times a week. Is it that different from Oklahoma-founded Zio's? Food-wise, of course. And yeah, Hideaway only has in-state locations at the moment, much like Zio's did when it arrived in Bricktown. Next year, Hideaway plans to start expanding into Texas. 10 years from now, when Hideaway has locations in 5 states, will that mean it is a bad business to have in AA? Or does it mean that expanding into Automobile Alley helped a great business to grow?

Abuelo's? That location was the first location outside of Texas for a small, family-owned group (I think they had three restaurants in west Texas in '94). It was an exciting time when they located in Bricktown, I promise you. And the performance of that store helped create the Abuelo's chain.

The Bricktown Brewery is unique, recently became VERY Oklahoma-focused...  ...and part of a larger restaurant group. Wait? What's that you say? So are Red Prime, Iguana, and Pachinko? If Iguana qualifies as local (it obviously does), how come you didn't list Earl's Rib Palace? Heck, the same guy owns BOTH PLACES. Coach's? Local. Tapwerks? LOCAL.

Sara Sara qualifies? Obviously. How come you didn't mention Bricktown's Coco Flow?

Red Prime (one of my favorite places in town)? How many restaurants are a part of the Good Egg Group? You want me to list them? I can, because I love every one of them. But does being a part of a group make them less special or unique? Not in my mind. I guess that means you should have mentioned The Mantel when talking about Bricktown's makeup. LOCAL.

In fact, there are but a few places in ALL of the inner city that AREN'T part of larger restaurant groups. Excluding the wealth of independent Asian places, bars that incidentally serve food, and CBD lunch-only places, I could quickly only come up with a few: VZD's, Ludivine, the Museum Cafe, Joey's Pizzaria, Trattoria, Stella, Deep Deuce Grill, Sage, Tapwerks, and Nonna's. The last two are in Bricktown, and NEITHER were mentioned in your list. I'm sure there are more, but my point remains; if you're somehow disqualifying places like Bricktown Brewery, Coach's, Chelino's and Earl's because they are members of a larger group, you'd better get busy disqualifying places in the rest of the downtown districts too.

For the record, I think being a part of a small, local restaurant group is a strength. It allows for a new place to find its footing, helps create buzz when a new place opens, and provides the resources of other professionals within the organization when developing a concept.

Also for the record, though my business interests are in Bricktown my heart is actually probably more in Automobile Alley and elsewhere. I'm not dogging any of these places or restaurants; only illustrating the double-standard applied to Bricktown. You did it yourself in your post by failing to mention all of the LOCAL places here, dismissing them as "some Oklahoma and local places too."

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## Just the facts

> Would all of the Bricktown worries be solved, if a developer announced today that they will build a 250 unit apartment project in Bricktown?


It would help.

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## Urbanized

> bricktown .... Brix (local) bricktown brewery(local) The Mantle(local) bolaro (local)     lots and lots of local and oklahoma places in bricktown


You're absolutely right. Local/Oklahoma-owned restaurants in Bricktown (both group-owned and completely independent) include: Brix, Bricktown Brewery, The Mantel, Bolero, Falcone's, Earl's Rib Palace, Coach's, In The Raw, TapWerks, Zio's, Chelino's, Bricktown Burgers, Crabtown, Nonna's, and even Toby Keith's (hey, if Charleston's and Red Rock qualify, so do they).

I would also make a case for Mickey Mantle's when it comes to "local flavor." Although they are admittedly part of the small Dallas Kirby's group, that is the only Mickey's in existence, and they run it in many ways as the flagship of their group. After 11 years their ties here run deep, and the owners are here multiple times per month; very hands-on. I also think it's pretty cool that when people take a doggy bag out of a Kirby's in Dallas or Houston, one side has the Kirby's logo and lists the four or five Texas cities they're in; the other has a Mickey's logo and says only: "Oklahoma City."

Throw in Coco Flow, and a large number bars which are almost exclusively Oklahoma-owned, and it is hard to make the argument that you can't get TONS of local flavor in Bricktown. And yet people make that argument regularly in this forum.

Funny thing is, I believe if for example the Pearl's group were to open a new, unique Pearl's concept in AA, it would universally be lauded as more great new local, but the unique Crabtown concept in Bricktown somehow remains "a chain restaurant" in people's minds. Simply put, people are fickle, Bricktown is old news, and folks apply their standards in an unequal fashion to suit their arguments. Blinders.

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## Ginkasa

> MikeOKC - your shopping decisions are influenced by you traveling around in a car.  You don't mind traveling 4 miles to get a $2 item because you have a car, a wide road, and a large parking lot to make it all possible.  When you start moving around on foot how far you are willing to travel will change.  You sure won't be walking 4 miles for a $2 item and in an urban environment driving won't be an option, not because parking is a hassle, but because you don't have to; the $2 items will be available at the corner market.  I am not saying it is going to happen overnight, but it will happen.  The seeds of change have been planted.



Who goes to Bricktown for a $2 item?

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## J. Pitman

> It would help.


Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.

Lackmeyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe more than 6 million people visited Bricktown last year alone.

As someone who works in Bricktown, I can assure that things are going pretty well down here.

Is it everything that everyone wants it to be of course not.  Interestingly enough the most vocal detractors of Bricktown are the people who choose not to patronize the district.

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## MDot

> Who goes to Bricktown for a $2 item?


Where did he say anyone was going to Bricktown to get a $2 item?

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## Ginkasa

> Where did he say anyone was going to Bricktown to get a $2 item?



The entire post...?




> MikeOKC - your shopping decisions are influenced by you traveling around in a car. You don't mind traveling 4 miles to get a *$2 item* because you have a car, a wide road, and a large parking lot to make it all possible. When you start moving around on foot how far you are willing to travel will change. You sure won't be walking 4 miles for a *$2 item* and in an urban environment driving won't be an option, not because parking is a hassle, but because you don't have to; the *$2 items* will be available at the corner market. I am not saying it is going to happen overnight, but it will happen. The seeds of change have been planted.


He doesn't mention Bricktown specifically in his post, but he's replying to MikeOKC's post about people not abandoning Bricktown because they live in DD or whatever.

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## Just the facts

$2 or $20 - it doesn't matter.  The price wasn't the point.

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## Just the facts

> Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.


Successful at 'what' is the question.  Probably more so than anyone, I keep forgetting that Bricktown is an entertainment district, not a neighborhood.  It is not a live/work/play area, and for the most part, will probably never be.  And that's okay.

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## MDot

Guess I missed that Ginkasa but why it matters I have no clue.

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## Ginkasa

I think it is a point.  No, I won't go out of my way for a $2.00 item.  I will, however, go another "neighborhood" if there's a particular restaurant or other hotspot I want to go to.  I live in Moore.  That doesn't mean I don't go somewhere else for entertainment once in a while.

Sticking with Deep Deuce and Bricktown specifically: I don't think DD is so far way (they're connected!) that someone won't walk to Mickey Mantle's or Zio's or Skky Bar or whatever if they have a hankerin'.

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## Rover

> Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.
> 
> Lackmeyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe more than 6 million people visited Bricktown last year alone.


That would be an average of close to 16,500 people visiting there EVERY DAY of the year.  That seems like a lot.  I hope it is true.  If so, I wonder why more retail isn't happening.  Is that 16,500 who are stopping in Btown and spending money?  Or driving through?  Or just parking?  Just curious.

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## J. Pitman

> Successful at 'what' is the question.  Probably more so than anyone, I keep forgetting that Bricktown is an entertainment district, not a neighborhood.


I guess I should have said "worries" as that was what I was referring to.  Bricktown will soon have have close to 550 hotel rooms.  The busiest hotel in the state is in Bricktown.  Multiple family can go elsewhere.  Bricktown will also benefit from the Aloft and Level.

What exactly are your "worries" with regards to Bricktown?

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## Ginkasa

> That would be an average of close to 16,500 people visiting there EVERY DAY of the year. That seems like a lot. I hope it is true. If so, I wonder why more retail isn't happening. Is that 16,500 who are stopping in Btown and spending money? Or driving through? Or just parking? Just curious.




Possibly includes Thunder games?

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## MDot

> Possibly includes Thunder games?


The Thunder games I went to I parked in Bricktown a majority of the time. Maybe that's also a factor like you suggested.

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## J. Pitman

> That would be an average of close to 16,500 people visiting there EVERY DAY of the year.  That seems like a lot.  I hope it is true.  If so, I wonder why more retail isn't happening.  Is that 16,500 who are stopping in Btown and spending money?  Or driving through?  Or just parking?  Just curious.


That the number I was told during the land use study.  I can't speak to the validity of the number or how it was quantified.

The retail question is an easy one.  people don't like to pay to park in oklahoma city, hence the "bricktown parking myth."  People in Oklahoma city will never ever pay to park to go shopping.

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## Steve

> Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.
> 
> Lackmeyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe more than 6 million people visited Bricktown last year alone.
> 
> As someone who works in Bricktown, I can assure that things are going pretty well down here.
> 
> Is it everything that everyone wants it to be of course not.  Interestingly enough the most vocal detractors of Bricktown are the people who choose not to patronize the district.


That 6 million figure, if I recall correctly, goes back to a chamber-assisted survey done back when the canal opened. It is, to be blunt, meaningless.
I think it's safe to say, when you consider the impact of the Thunder, ongoing attendance at the ballpark, movie theater, Bass Pro, tourism in general, local dining.... that the figure is probably low. But there's no real estimate. If I spent some time on it, I could probably come up with a formula that could get us into a good ballpark guess.....

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## Just the facts

Since you live in Moore, how far would you be willing to walk to buy groceries?  How far is the nearest grocery store from your home?  Have you ever walked there?

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## Just the facts

> I guess I should have said "worries" as that was what I was referring to.  Bricktown will soon have have close to 550 hotel rooms.  The busiest hotel in the state is in Bricktown.  Multiple family can go elsewhere.  Bricktown will also benefit from the Aloft and Level.
> 
> What exactly are your "worries" with regards to Bricktown?


That as other urban location come on-line people looking for the urban experience in Bricktown will find that experience in other palces and Bricktown has no residential base to support it.  Bricktown 99.99% relies on visitors.  That was my only point.  If they want to continue relying on visitors I am fine with that.

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## J. Pitman

> Since you live in Moore, how far would you be willing to walk to buy groceries?  How far is the nearest grocery store from your home?  Have you ever walked there?


Are you speaking to me?

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## Just the facts

> Are you speaking to me?


No sorry - I was asking Ginkasa.

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## Ginkasa

As far as I needed to.  A mile?  Not recently, no.

My point is, though, who buys groceries in Bricktown?  That's not what Bricktown's for.  Yes, people will generally get their essentials closer to home.  No, they won't want to go out of their way, especially if they're walking, to go to the grocery store or convenience store or whatever.  They will go out of my way for entertainment.  For restaurants.  Even when walking.  Although I don't live near Bricktown I do work there.  I walk all over the darn place after work or before work or even on days off.  I'll park in Bricktown and walk to the Memorial, for example.

You think people won't walk from Deep Deuce to Harkins or Michael Murphy's or wherever is they want to go from Deep Deuce?

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## J. Pitman

> That as other urban location come on-line people looking for the urban experience in Bricktown will find that experience in other palces and Bricktown has no residential base to support it.  Bricktown 99.99% relies on visitors.  That was my only point.  If they want to continue relying on visitors I am fine with that.


The fact of the matter is Bricktown lost most of the local population a long time ago.  People have their own reasons for not going to Bricktown, parking, trendy, Ed Hardy, clubs, this demographic, that demographic.  Housing in Bricktown isn't going to suddenly change peoples' perceptions of the district.  There are a lot of people who won't come down here because it's Bricktown, yet Midtown, AA, and the Plaza are the cat's meow, and that's ok.

I see good things in Bricktown's future.  The ACM is already changing people minds, live music is starting to take hold and some folks who used to decry Bricktown are again coming for shows.  The Aloft will will benefit Bricktown and so will Level, even though those are deep duece developments.

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## Steve

People walk from Deep Deuce into Bricktown all the time. My former top editor, Ed Kelley, lived in Block 42 and routinely walked to the arena for Thunder games, Starbucks on Saturday mornings for coffee, and to games at the ballpark, various restaurants for dinner, etc. I know of others, including some on this board, who do so as well. I suspect that walkability downtown will increase with the Project 180 transformation of streets and the creation of a streetcar line. But only time will tell for sure. I too question the wisdom of thinking Bricktown would be the spot for a grocery compared to MidTown, Deep Deuce or Automobile Alley, all of which are far more residential in use.

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## foodiefan

> The fact of the matter is Bricktown lost most of the local population a long time ago.  I see good things in Bricktown's future. . . . . The ACM is already changing people minds, live music is starting to take hold and some folks who used to decry Bricktown are again coming for shows.  The Aloft will will benefit Bricktown and so will Level, even though those are deep duece developments.


. . . CocoFlow has hosted a couple of chocolate classes.  I drove in from the suburbs, parked (paid. . .no big deal). . . and LOVED the class.  Hope they will do more in the future!!  People WILL come for speciality events.

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## Urbanized

> Successful at 'what' is the question.  Probably more so than anyone, I keep forgetting that Bricktown is an entertainment district, not a neighborhood.  It is not a live/work/play area, and for the most part, will probably never be.  And that's okay.


People dramatically underestimate the number of folks who work in Bricktown, and I'm not even talking about the many hundreds - probably thousands, actually - of people in the hospitality business. The buildings bounded by Sheridan, Mickey Mantle, the canal and Oklahoma Avenue, especially, house a large number of attorneys, architects, software people, consulting companies, defense contractors and the like. Many people on this board probably assume the upper stories of those buildings are empty; yet they are substantially full. Add in the faculty and students at ACM, and you have a pretty respectable number of people who "work" in Bricktown.

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## Just the facts

Ok guys, you convinced me.  I'll be in OKC over Thanksgiving and hope to get to all the new places.

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## Larry OKC

> People dramatically underestimate the number of folks who work in Bricktown, and I'm not even talking about the many hundreds - probably thousands, actually - of people in the hospitality business. The buildings bounded by Sheridan, Mickey Mantle, the canal and Oklahoma Avenue, especially, house a large number of attorneys, architects, software people, consulting companies, defense contractors and the like. Many people on this board probably assume the upper stories of those buildings are empty; *yet they are substantially full*. Add in the faculty and students at ACM, and you have a pretty respectable number of people who "work" in Bricktown.


While some are occupied...from Steve's article, read more: http://newsok.com/brokers-say-era-of...#ixzz1ZrkhF8Nv


> A survey of the area shows more than a dozen buildings have remained empty for years, and others, including the home of the Spaghetti Warehouse, have several floors of empty space with only a ground-floor tenant.
> ...
> The negatives, however, persist, especially in Bricktown. Prominent properties staying empty for decades include the Rock Island Plow Building at Reno and Oklahoma avenues, the Sherman Iron Works Building at Main Street and Oklahoma Avenue, and the 19 E California building along the Bricktown Canal.
> ,,,
> “Some brokers are tempted to tell the seller whatever they want to hear,” Martin said. “It's easy. But why are there all these empty floors in all these buildings?
> ...
> “Most of the buildings still vacant are not finished out,”

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## Steve

Do you want your glass half empty or half full? Urbanized is right - there are, by my count, hundreds of people to be found in upper floors of buildings like ACM, the Glass/Confectionary/Baden Buildings, Candy Factory, the Karchmer Building on Main Street, Harding & Shelton's properties on the canal, the buildings on the south side of Main Street east of the Walnut Bridge, and of course the Hampton Inn. But Larry is right as well. Those empty above the first floor include The Melting Pot, Abueloe's, Spaghetti Warehouse, Brix, Hunzicker Bros. Building; completely empty buildings include 19 E California, Margarita Mama's building, Rock Island Plow Building, Sherman Iron Works, Stanley Systems Building, old dairy building, the small triangle building east of the Walnut Bridge, Stewart Steel buildings, so forth. Those with an intimate knowledge of Bricktown will also notice a theme in who owns which buildings...

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## Just the facts

So the jist is - if the building is made usable, it fills up.

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## Rover

Is there a real estate professional on this board who can give us an accurate portrayal of the true available space (up do desirable office specs), and an indication of the demand which is unfilled because of lack of available space (again, suitable for desired use)?  If there is demand and available space, is it not full because of unreasonable or uncompetitive rates?  I have looked at office space all over and the agents NEVER suggest Btown to me.  Why is that?

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## Steve

Rover and Just the Facts, here's the basic gist: Most of the buildings that remain empty reflect either the lack of interest or unrealistic expectations by their owners to make something happen. There are many who would say one of these two reasons is at play with Spaghetti Warehouse, Stewart Metal, Sherman Ironworks, Margarita Mama's, 19 E California, Rock Island Plow Building, and the small triangle building.
I see great progress being made by the Brewer brothers in developing the Hunzicker Bros building (Peach Wave, Sammy's, Captain Norm's, more to come) and I see some very promising potential development deals for a couple other empty properties I listed in the prior post.

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## Urbanized

I never said there wasn't plenty of space and opportunity. And Steve has it right on the reasons some of those buildings remain unfinished, though that type of ownership has gone through some pretty significant upheaval over the past 5 years.

Problem is that I think many on this board and elsewhere think that for the most part all of Bricktown is ONLY restaurants and bars on the ground floors. There are tens of thousands square feet of OCCUPIED, class A type upper-floor spaces in this district. There are tons of high-income professionals who come to work here every day in white collar jobs that don't involve frying stuff, making beds or slinging drinks (not that there is anything wrong with that - my own employees are in the service/hospitality industry). I'm just saying that most of the Bricktown-bashing that is so popular on this board is often thanks to stereotypes that, while obviously based on a history that is nobody's fault but Bricktown's, are simply put not accurate.

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## Steve

I think Bricktown represents all the dreams, aspirations, disappointments and frustrations of urbanists in OKC, and with that in mind, this debate will continue ...

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## Rover

Bricktown resonates because it was the focal point of the public investment for private investment in Maps1.  Even though it didn't represent where most of the money was going, it was the most visible.  It embodies our dreams of turning the center city around.  While it has been very successful, it hasn't produced many real high profile private projects. Yes the Hampton is "nice", but not exactly a marquis project.  Put ONE really high profile new project there and the whole perception changes.  Funk's proposal could have done that if done right.  I also think people resent those who have owned and done nothing, just waiting to cash in on the perceived improvement of value that was created by the public's money/investement.  So, those empty spots and "do nothing owners" hit a real sore spot with the public.

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## Soonerinfiniti

A quick look at Loopnet indicates apprx. 110,000 SF of vacant office space in Bricktown available for lease.  However, 90,000 SF of that space is contained in three buildings (Kingman, 3 East Main and Bricktown Mercantile) and I don't know if all of that space is finished.  Asking rents are in the $14 - $18/SF range.

Deep Deuce is limited currently to the first floor of the Maywood Lofts (11,903 SF available).

I think the Bricktown office market is suffering the same problem as all of OKC - companies are reluctant to relocate due to perceived weakness in the economy.  Add on the perceived parking problem in Bricktown and that likely explains the lack of office population.

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## Steve

Keep in mind there is A LOT of space not on loopnet because it's raw, not finished, not for sale or lease

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## metro

Steve, did Sammys ever open yet?

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## Urbanized

My position is that most people have a limited understanding of Bricktown. I see comments that say it is "weekends only." If you expect it to be overflowing with people the way it is on Fridays and Saturdays, I guess you're right.  But there really is quite a lot weekday day and evening activity.

The difference is that most of the folks coming here are local and more purposeful; they park, go to the restaurant or bar they are seeking, and then leave. You don't see lookie-loos strolling. This of course would be vastly improved with more quality retail. But during this conversation I have been paying attention to specifically this issue. I can tell you that every day this week when I have looked out the window or walked in the district, I have seen dozens of people walking on the streets at any given moment. The Water Taxi carried several hundred yesterday. I'm sure that (as usual) several hundred people saw movies at Harkins. Today there were hundreds of people on the streets with conference badges on from the convention they are attending.  I sincerely doubt that level of activity is going on anywhere else in the inner city, other than the CBD.

I can tell you that on purpose last night I stuck my head into a couple of places on my way out of Bricktown. At 8 PM the dining room at Mickey Mantle's was at capacity, the bar about 3/4 full. TapWerks was buzzing. We had 15-20 people shopping in the Bricktown Marketplace. About two dozen people were at the bar at Captain Norm's. A weekly art class hosted by Put A Cork In It winery was slammed. She had 45 people, and every week draws about 35-40. Some weeks she has more than one class there, and each week the class is also held at OTHER venues in Bricktown. The people attending are LOCALS. They aren't tourists. I'll post the photo I took of the art class below.





My point is only that there seems to be this commonly-accepted position here that tumbleweeds are blowing down the streets here anytime but Friday and Saturday night, and that the only people frequenting Bricktown are out-of-towners. That position couldn't be further from the truth; and it's frustrating to me that rarely does anyone seek to dispel the notion.

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## Spartan

> Good comments by all. My next question: Do any of the veterans of OKC Talk recognize a pattern in these threads? OKC Talk has been around since what? - 2004/05? It seems like every two years there's a discussion about how Bricktown's best days are over....


Every thread. Every day.

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## OklahomaNick

Am I the only one that thinks that Bricktown doesnt need to discover its identity right now? Lots of concepts have come and gone, and some have worked and others have not. OKCs entire downtown is changing as fast as the tenants in Bricktown, so why would we need to establish its true identity when everything else around it is changing?

And to reiterate what others are saying; it will become more local as more people permanently live in the area (Deep Deuce). And yes for GODs sake remove the bricked up windows above Spaghetti Warehouse and occupy those top floors!

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## soonerguru

Maybe now that they've exhausted all other options they've decided to do the right thing.

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## Spartan

> Do you want your glass half empty or half full? Urbanized is right - there are, by my count, hundreds of people to be found in upper floors of buildings like ACM, the Glass/Confectionary/Baden Buildings, Candy Factory, the Karchmer Building on Main Street, Harding & Shelton's properties on the canal, the buildings on the south side of Main Street east of the Walnut Bridge, and of course the Hampton Inn. But Larry is right as well. Those empty above the first floor include The Melting Pot, Abueloe's, Spaghetti Warehouse, Brix, Hunzicker Bros. Building; completely empty buildings include 19 E California, Margarita Mama's building, Rock Island Plow Building, Sherman Iron Works, Stanley Systems Building, old dairy building, the small triangle building east of the Walnut Bridge, Stewart Steel buildings, so forth. Those with an intimate knowledge of Bricktown will also notice a theme in who owns which buildings...


What is the deal with the Stanley Systems bldg, which underwent major renovations recently?

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## Steve

It's going slow, but from all appearances it's still moving forward.

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## Urban Pioneer

Anyone see today's presentation of the "Bricktown Strategic Plan" at City Council today by the Planning Department?  Interesting.

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## SkyWestOKC

Nope? Anyone have pics or link to the plan?

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## mcca7596

> Anyone see today's presentation of the "Bricktown Strategic Plan" at City Council today by the Planning Department?  Interesting.


Just looked through it. Key points were reconnecting Oklahoma street between Main and 2nd as well as sidewalks and lighting on Perry between Deep Deuce and Sheridan, additional on-street parking, appropriate connection to the new boulevard, and the recommendation of a mixed-use development in East Bricktown.

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## mcca7596

> Nope? Anyone have pics or link to the plan?


I'm sure it won't last very long but here it is: http://okc.gov/AgendaPub/cache/2/qoh...1055815710.PDF

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## SkyWestOKC

Here's a better link http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/view.as...fileid=1362334

Right click the link from the agenda website, select Copy Link Address (or similar) and it will give you a good link that will last forever.

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## Urban Pioneer

I have started a new thread on the Bricktown Strategic plan as it probably deserves its own place for archival reasons. 

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=27547


I just watched the video of council, if someone can extract imbed the presentation, I think it would be a good idea.  Lots of great content and discussion beyond the handout.

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## EBAH

An interesting side note, Guestroom Records just posted an announcement to their Facebook page that they will be opening a Bricktown location in 1-2 months.

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## dankrutka

That's the type of local business that Bricktown could use! Great news!

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