# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Moore >  School Vouchers being contemplated.........

## Tundra

Good Evening, 

MPS needs your help!  There is a bill that has been 
presented to the legislature that will enable Vouchers/Education Savings 
Accounts to become law.  Before I speak on this particular bill, I need 
data (one way or the other) to back it up.  We have launched a campaign to 
educate and receive feedback from our community.  My request is that you 
take two minutes and follow the link provided Moore Public Schools / Overview 
(district website), click on the Vouchers in Oklahoma icon, read the one page 
of information, and click the link at the bottom to take the two question 
survey. 

As always, thank you for your support!

Dr. Romines

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## Zuplar

Well first vouchers and an ESA kind of are 2 different things. I like Robert, but he is kind of making them seem like the same thing. And let's be honest, most private schools are better than public schools. So with that being said if there is a way for parents to essentially keep their taxes (vouchers) and apply that to a private school because that's where they want to send their kid, then I have a hard time denying them that.

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## dankrutka

What makes private schools better than public schools? Oh, it's the college  educated parents and wealth of money. Yep. Public schools with the same demographics do fine. No one complains about wealthy, suburban public schools. In short, no, private schools don't do better when you factor in income inequality. If there is some empirical evidence that accounts for variables that has shown that private schools are a better model than public schools then I'd like to see it.

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## Tundra

> What makes private schools better than public schools? Oh, it's the college  educated parents and wealth of money. Yep. Public schools with the same demographics do fine. No one complains about wealthy, suburban public schools. In short, no, private schools don't do better when you factor in income inequality. If there is some empirical evidence that accounts for variables that has shown that private schools are a better model than public schools then I'd like to see it.


I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....

Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....

If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....

They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....

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## Bunty

> I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....
> 
> Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....
> 
> If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....
> 
> They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....


Unless you think Moore public schools have become so miserably bad  that they're not worth throwing another more penny at, along with having sorry teachers not worthy of a raise,  I don't see the point of subsidizing private and/or religious schools with public tax dollars.  

If vouchers are legalized and the public school teacher only has 25 rather than 30 students in class to teach, that teacher still gets paid the same.  The teacher may not mind too much, but the state isn't saving money.

Meanwhile, I can't help but wonder if private schools are giving campaign money to legislators, who support vouchers and/or  if those legislators send their children to private or religious schools.

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## mugofbeer

> Unless you think Moore public schools have become so miserably bad  that they're not worth throwing another more penny at, along with having sorry teachers not worthy of a raise,  I don't see the point of subsidizing private and/or religious schools with public tax dollars.  
> 
> If vouchers are legalized and the public school teacher only has 25 rather than 30 students in class to teach, that teacher still gets paid the same.  The teacher may not mind too much, but the state isn't saving money.
> 
> Meanwhile, I can't help but wonder if private schools are giving campaign money to legislators, who support vouchers and/or  if those legislators send their children to private or religious schools.


Don't know.  What is known is that the public school teachers unions have been giving campaign money for years and by the millions to legislators who DON'T support vouchers.  So what's the difference?

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## SoonerDave

> I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....
> 
> Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....
> 
> If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....
> 
> *They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher...*.


Categorically inaccurate. The private schools I'm aware of and for whom my wife has worked didn't make *half* the pathetic rate of OK public schools. And OK public school teacher pay is already pathetic.

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## SoonerDave

> Unless you think Moore public schools have become so miserably bad  that they're not worth throwing another more penny at, along with having sorry teachers not worthy of a raise,  I don't see the point of subsidizing private and/or religious schools with public tax dollars.


But, by all means, let's keep throwing money at a broken model on the order of billions annually all for the fear-mongering that we're "subsidizing religious schools."

Love this kind of spin. This isn't about "subsidizing private schools." It's about giving the *tax monies* people *already pay* BACK to the parents to give them the *choice* of education they believe is best for their child. It's about having *options*. Those in the education establishment want people to forget the fact it's *the taxpayer's* money, and they have every right to demand some form of accountability for what they're *forced* to spend and where their kids are *forced* to attend. 

The ones who could benefit the most from vouchers? The folks who are in the very worst schools. Give them a chance to afford the "elitist" schools and let them flourish there. Why do we fear that choice?

Are private schools panaceas? Nope. Went through two, got an "education" about how they're not perfect. At all. And my kids finished in public schools, and my wife works in one. It's not perfect, either. Once again, reality exists *between* the two politically hyperbolized extremes. In the vein of vouchers, parents need a choice.

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## stile99

> It's about giving the *tax monies* people *already pay* BACK to the parents to give them the *choice* of education they believe is best for their child.


I have no children, I graduated long ago.  I have no dog in this fight whatsoever, and as such, have no idea and barely care how vouchers work.  But I do have a question.  What about property owners who are not parents?  What do they get from a voucher program?  Could a non-parent taxpayer still get vouchers and give them to a neighbor or something?  Say I live in district X.  District X is known to have complete crap schools.  My next-door neighbor gets vouchers to send his kid(s) to district Y, which is known to have excellent schools.  Could I elect to have my tax money sent to district Y as well?

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## dankrutka

> I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....
> 
> Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....
> 
> If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....
> 
> They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....


Let's run through you're reasons:
- Weird
- Because they have more money, not because they're better
- Just like at public schools
- Incorrect, most public schools actually pay better overall

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## dankrutka

> But, by all means, let's keep throwing money at a broken model on the order of billions annually all for the fear-mongering that we're "subsidizing religious schools."
> 
> Love this kind of spin. This isn't about "subsidizing private schools." It's about giving the *tax monies* people *already pay* BACK to the parents to give them the *choice* of education they believe is best for their child. It's about having *options*. Those in the education establishment want people to forget the fact it's *the taxpayer's* money, and they have every right to demand some form of accountability for what they're *forced* to spend and where their kids are *forced* to attend. 
> 
> The ones who could benefit the most from vouchers? The folks who are in the very worst schools. Give them a chance to afford the "elitist" schools and let them flourish there. Why do we fear that choice?
> 
> Are private schools panaceas? Nope. Went through two, got an "education" about how they're not perfect. At all. And my kids finished in public schools, and my wife works in one. It's not perfect, either. Once again, reality exists *between* the two politically hyperbolized extremes. In the vein of vouchers, parents need a choice.


Public schools aren't broken. These oversimplified narratives are just ignorant. I taught at Westmoore for 5 years and I believe we offered a better education than any private school in the state. We had a cast of all-star teachers. It was a great place to be. 

Public schools mean that every child deserves a quality education. Our broken communities, legislators, and public make that job really hard. But vouchers will make the education gap wider for students. It will not fix anything.

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## Tundra

> Public schools aren't broken. These oversimplified narratives are just ignorant. I taught at Westmoore for 5 years and I believe we offered a better education than any private school in the state. We had a cast of all-star teachers. It was a great place to be. 
> 
> Public schools mean that every child deserves a quality education. Our broken communities, legislators, and public make that job really hard. But vouchers will make the education gap wider for students. It will not fix anything.


I graduated from Westmoore 22 years ago and laugh about the all star comment, give me a break but I encountered a few of the worst teachers ever at that school..... And sadly their are a few still there to this day.

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## menos

> *I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....*
> 
> Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....
> 
> If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....
> 
> They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....



Former Moore Christian Schools teacher arrested in rape case | News OK   just saying...

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## Tundra

> Former Moore Christian Schools teacher arrested in rape case | News OK   just saying...


Former teacher, so it wasn't happening when he was teaching at the private school.

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## menos

Nope, happened while he was teaching. Wasn't arrested till after he retired from the school.

http://newsok.com/article/3652085

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## Tundra

> Nope, happened while he was teaching. Wasn't arrested till after he retired from the school.
> 
> Police say former Moore teacher charged with rape asked 14-year-old to marry him | News OK


Well I guess that's one thing in common with public schools...

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## mugofbeer

OKC area schools really aren't the problem where school vouchers would benefit.   They would benefit in locations where public schools have failed like Chicago or Detroit or LA.

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## dankrutka

> Former teacher, so it wasn't happening when he was teaching at the private school.


How many times can one person be wrong in one thread?

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## dankrutka

> OKC area schools really aren't the problem where school vouchers would benefit.   They would benefit in locations where public schools have failed like Chicago or Detroit or LA.


Actually, New Orleans has gone full charter school model without any significant results to show for it. And, I'm just trying to point out that people that keep saying that the schools "failed" often have very limited knowledge of the full context of the situation. First, not all schools ste failing and it's inaccurate and unproductive to paint such a picture. Two, it's complicated and we need to address the full array of issues involved... Not lazily blame public schools.

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## Bunty

> Don't know.  What is known is that the public school teachers unions have been giving campaign money for years and by the millions to legislators who DON'T support vouchers.  So what's the difference?


It makes a lot of difference, if you think public schools are unfit for your child.  So vote, if possible for legislators, who take money from private and religious schools.

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## Bunty

> Don't know.  What is known is that the public school teachers unions have been giving campaign money for years and by the millions to legislators who DON'T support vouchers.  So what's the difference?


Deleted as duplicated.

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## Bunty

> The ones who could benefit the most from vouchers? The folks who are in the very worst schools. Give them a chance to afford the "elitist" schools and let them flourish there. Why do we fear that choice?


How do you know parents will have a suitable choice for their vouchers?  Maybe it's safe to say there are a good number of private/religious schools to choose from in Oklahoma City and Tulsa metros.  But what about elsewhere in the state?

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## Zorba

> I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....


I know it happened in Tulsa about a decade ago, at a Christian school. Seems like I've heard about it a few other times too. Not sure how being in a private school would prevent perverts. If anything there is probably more visibility in a Public School. And people tend to be overly trusting with people at churches and Christian schools.

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## jdcf

As parents we have had experience with parochial schools, (public) charter schools, and public schools.  I support each but do not favor vouchers.

Vouchers do nothing to enhance public education.  They serve the private and parochial institutions that have open enrollment and select their students.  Private and parochial schools do not have the capacity and resources to meet the needs of urban students with individual differences:  15% special ed, 33% limited English, 90% poverty.  Without adequate services, the students would be harmed rather than helped.

Private and parochial schools should be recruiting and developing programs to serve these students now, programs for spec ed and limited English students, programs to help students who perform below grade level, etc.  

Why would parochial and private schools not want government tax dollars to help keep their doors open, especially in tough financial times?  IMO vouchers further divide the classes and have a hidden agenda that is not readily admitted.

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## onthestrip

> But, by all means, let's keep throwing money at a broken model on the order of billions annually all for the fear-mongering that we're "subsidizing religious schools."
> 
> Love this kind of spin. This isn't about "subsidizing private schools." It's about giving the *tax monies* people *already pay* *BACK to the parents to give them the *choice* of education they believe is best for their child.* It's about having *options*. Those in the education establishment want people to forget the fact it's *the taxpayer's* money, and they have every right to demand some form of accountability for what they're *forced* to spend and where their kids are *forced* to attend. 
> 
> The ones who could benefit the most from vouchers? *The folks who are in the very worst schools. Give them a chance to afford the "elitist" schools and let them flourish there.* Why do we fear that choice?
> 
> Are private schools panaceas? Nope. Went through two, got an "education" about how they're not perfect. At all. And my kids finished in public schools, and my wife works in one. It's not perfect, either. Once again, reality exists *between* the two politically hyperbolized extremes. In the vein of vouchers, parents need a choice.


There is choice. They can choose to move and change districts, try to get their kids into a charter school, pay to privately school them.

Give them a "chance to afford the elitist schools"...? So someone that lives near US Grant wants to send their kids to another school yet they are too poor to move to another district and you somehow think they will be able to make up the few thousands of dollars difference between private school tuition and their ESA? And then have the means to transport that child to the private school that is probably 15 mins away? This wont happen. Thats the myth of ESAs, they arent helping the poor parent in a bad district, they are subsidizing the tuition for already well off parents.

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## Jesseda

> Former teacher, so it wasn't happening when he was teaching at the private school.


MY children attended this school when this happened and yes it was happening while he was "teaching" at this school. Also it happened 18 years ago at the same school with a teenage girl and the schools football coach but they are now happily married with two teenage children of their own. I also graduated from a private school and I know you are probably aware that most private school teachers are not even Certified to teach. Public school has so much more to offer compared to most private schools here in Oklahoma

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## Bunty

> Public school has so much more to offer compared to most private schools here in Oklahoma


Then why do legislators think there is a great deal of public demand to steer tax dollars for pubic education to private schools?

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## dankrutka

> Then why do legislators think there is a great deal of public demand to steer tax dollars for pubic education to private schools?


Are you asking why legislators or the public want to do something that's a bad idea? Because making bad policy decisions is standard. 

The real answer is lobbyists and ideology, not evidence.

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## Jesseda

> Then why do legislators think there is a great deal of public demand to steer tax dollars for pubic education to private schools?


 Who knows why. I can tell you from my personal experience graduating from a private school that public schools has more to offer. My children attended private school for kindergarten and 2 grade and again nothing has changed. I only had them in private since most schools in moore do not have full day kindergarten and thankfully I had them in that school or they would have been in plaza towers may 20 2013. Public school has more to offer and maybe that is why so many private schools in moore has closed in the past decade. The only thing that kept private schools opened for so long was elementary age kids especially pre k... There was just a handful of jr. High and high school students in the private schools in moore. I was a class of 4. Also example my son in private school did not have title one reading, My daughter did not have teacher aid tutoring during school. Also several resource teachers and teacher assistants, school psycologist access to free evening tutoring if your child is falling behind etc so much more then what a lot of private schools offer unless you are going to some place like Casady and making a monthly house payment for you child to attend a private school like that one

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## dankrutka

As a public schools advocate, I'm not saying that one is better than the other for any individual family. It's far more complex than that. What I know is that there is little evidence that vouchers would improve schooling overall. Public schools are an investment in our society that we don't take seriously enough... And the lack of commitment to providing the resources and money for teachers and schools to succeed has had disastrous societal costs. Vouchers would further deteriorate our system.

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