# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Midwest City/Del City >  Choctaw Town Square

## metro

Choctaw officials broke ground on Choctaw Town Square retail development on NE 23rd and Henney Rd. and will represent approximately $80 million in new development, and is expected to bring 300-500 jobs.

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## bombermwc

Choctaw is actually developing something? Wow, that's a nice change.

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## Thunder

With all the housing booms over there, yes, there will be retail booms to follow.

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## Spartan

Booms, plural? How many people live in Choctaw? 10-15,000 max? Interesting: Ron Bradshaw is vice-mayor?



Looks like a quality project.

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## Corndog1

Im new to Choctaw, moved here from a long ways away.  Very interested in this Town Square project.  Why is it interesting who the vice mayor is?  Choctaw doesnt seem to have lots of stuff other than houses and schools, is this something that anyone really sees working.  Also seemed to be amazed that there is really no mainstreet atmosphere though this is supposed to be a small tomn.  All in all, I truly like it here and am happy living here, but would be happy to have more stores and choices.

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## Spartan

> Im new to Choctaw, moved here from a long ways away.  Very interested in this Town Square project.  Why is it interesting who the vice mayor is?  Choctaw doesnt seem to have lots of stuff other than houses and schools, is this something that anyone really sees working.  Also seemed to be amazed that there is really no mainstreet atmosphere though this is supposed to be a small tomn.  All in all, I truly like it here and am happy living here, but would be happy to have more stores and choices.


So are you saying it's a dumb project or a good project? Your post is kind of meandering, but I agree that Choctaw is sort of middle of nowhere compared to other burbs. The reason the vice-mayor is interesting is because Ron Bradshaw is an important developer in downtown OKC.

I guess Banta is/was still mayor of Piedmont, this seems fairly similar. I know a few other city leaders who lived out in Harrah, interestingly.

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## Corndog1

Im saying, tell me what your opinions are.  I dont have a clue if its good or bad.  I havent been around here long enough to know if this would work or not.  Its weird that there are very few businesses out this way based on how many homes seem to be here.  Just wondering what types of places are planning to open here and also if you that know about this area see this as being a success or another empty area like the Choctaw shopping area that sits beside it already.  Granted that one seems very old and run down and probably wont compare to a new one.

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## dmoor82

When I was going to Choctaw H.S. in The late 90's There was no McDonalds,Choctaw trails just started,and Harper still only had The park,now there are housing additions and strip malls everywhere!Give it 20 years and Choctaw will look like East MWC!

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## bombermwc

Folks tend to forget it's got large enough of a population to be a 6A school. So there are people out there, and they're not all old farts either. Take a look back 30 years ago and it was way out in the boonies. That's not true anymore. There are a LOT of really nice neighborhoods out there. It's not a huge population center, but it's not going to be either. Part of the charm to the Choctaw residents is that you get a lot of land when you build out there. It's nicely wooded and quiet. That's part of what makes Choctaw, Choctaw. It's quiet secret that is slowly building...retail has to catch up at some point. 

MWC has pushed so hard for so long, they have really kept a lot of development out of Choctaw. Especially since it's smack dab between Shawnee and MWC....and Shawnee is far more developed economically, if not by population.

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## BoulderSooner

choctaw would have exploded in growth .. if the ne loop had been build ... meeting I35 around 63rd  and meeting I40 just west of choctaw road

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## John1744

I live in Harrah and am very interested in this project have we heard what's going in to this area? Is it going to be big block business's or smaller shops? I'm thinking something like MWC's new plaza by 29th street and tinker?

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## Spartan

> Im saying, tell me what your opinions are.  I dont have a clue if its good or bad.  I havent been around here long enough to know if this would work or not.  Its weird that there are very few businesses out this way based on how many homes seem to be here.  Just wondering what types of places are planning to open here and also if you that know about this area see this as being a success or another empty area like the Choctaw shopping area that sits beside it already.  Granted that one seems very old and run down and probably wont compare to a new one.


Well this is not going to be a convention shopping area. They've eliminated the strip mall element from the shopping area. They're rebuilding a vintage town square, like many small towns in Oklahoma and Texas have. I think it's great that Choctaw is being proactive and is really trying to lure commercial development in a sustainable, well-planned way. Something that won't turn into the abandoned strip center you mentioned.

Bradshaw is a really good developer who is usually involved in interesting things, and he believes in urban development (particularly downtown OKC), so he's probably involved in this. I think Moore and Yukon, both strip mall central, should look at what Choctaw is doing with this.

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## barnold

While this type of growth would be a great boom for the area, the opening statement for the topic is pretty misleading.  The land has been cleared of trees for more than a year and just sat empty.  Then a couple of months ago they plopped a nice sign with pretty developer pictures on a board showing what may be built there someday.  No dirt has been turned on this project and the last time I spoke with the Lowe's people in MWC, the plans of a Lowe's Hardware in the Choctaw Town Square as the anchor store have been put on indefinite hold.

I truly hope this project gets off the ground soon and they start doing some actual work on the place.  It would be a welcome sight in Choctaw.

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## plmccordj

I just stumbled on this information on the Choctaw web site... http://www.ok.gov/choctaw/documents/...003-02-09).pdf

The front page is here... http://www.ok.gov/choctaw/Living_In_...ent/index.html

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## plmccordj

It looks like Choctaw is trying to do what Midwest City did with the Town Center.  I really hope they succeed.

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## Thunder

How close is this area to Douglas?  If they hurry get all of this done, it will bring in more customers flow and I can benefit that.

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## plmccordj

Henney Road is five miles East of Douglas.  I am excited to see that Choctaw is finally looking forward.  With all of the new homes being built out there, maybe this will be a start to having those people spend their dollars there and maybe the city can grow faster.  One thing that I have noticed about many people I know that live in Choctaw is that they have water wells and septic tanks.  I am thinking if the city can build infrastructure that maybe it will grow.  Choctaw's population is only 11,146 but it has grown 20% since 2000.

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## bombermwc

It's also a pretty young crowd. For a town of only 11K to support a 6A school says something folks.

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## BrettM2

/deleted

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## BrettM2

> It's also a pretty young crowd. For a town of only 11K to support a 6A school says something folks.


They are 6A, but they also pulled in students from surrounding towns.  I lived in MWC (only 1.5 miles from CAHS) but went to Choctaw.

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## ewoodard

That makes 2 of us. Graduated CHS in '88. Lived between post and westminster off 10th.

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## dmoor82

^^Funny how kids in The neighborhood behind The new Buy4Less all goes to NP/Choctaw schools when those kids live less than a mile from CA!

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## Corndog1

I drove by that lot today.  They had building materials on the ground and looked to be working on something.  Anyone know what is going on with that right now?

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## Redskin 70

I liek it

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## mikeb215

I've read where this is supposed to be a "walkable" development. The main problem with Choctaw currently is that everything is so spread out, so if they can get a good variety of retail, entertainment, specialty shops, and maybe a decent department store in that development that'd be great. At this point though even going west from McDonald's, there's not much to offer, the Braum's building has been vacant for what 2 years or more? 

There is certainly need to develop something along 23rd, but I hope that the city doesn't get carried away and try to be "Edmond South".

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## mcca7596

> I've read where this is supposed to be a "walkable" development. The main problem with Choctaw currently is that everything is so spread out, so if they can get a good variety of retail, entertainment, specialty shops, and maybe a decent department store in that development that'd be great. At this point though even going west from McDonald's, there's not much to offer, the Braum's building has been vacant for what 2 years or more? 
> 
> There is certainly need to develop something along 23rd, but I hope that the city doesn't get carried away and try to be "Edmond South".


So are you saying that walkable developments or more than one development make a suburb "Edmond South"?

I don't see how you could be against either thing.

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## Thunder

What is the deal with some people disliking Edmond so much?

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## barnold

Not 100% certain but he stuff strewn about the field looks like the beginnings of a new water tower.

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## Corndog1

That was kinda what I thought today as I looked again.  I dont remember a tower being a part of that complex, but maybe it is.  Funny, MWC wants a tower out of their new town square, but it looks like Choctaw is building one to be in theres. 

Have always felt that water is a reason that businesses arent in Choctaw.  Most everything out here is a water well, hard to talk Lowes into opening a store with a water well to run it.

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## bombermwc

Yeah I never understood why Choctaw won't get on the utility front. It seems like water/sewer would be ground zero for a city. Maybe 11K people can't support the cost to start the infrastructure? But to me, i don't see why they wouldn't start somewhere though. Plan it out, use bond issues to start aquiring land for a treatment/water plan and then continue bonds to pay for the creation of the actual system. No sense in having it before you can use it.

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## barnold

While I'm sure the water/sewer is limited due to population vs land mass, a great deal of Choctaw has the option of being on city water.  Sewer- not so much.  The towers are for reserve and emergency to limit the dependency on the end provider which I assume is Okc or MWC.

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## Corndog1

I only moved here a few years ago and I love what I know about Choctaw, hope it keeps growing yet maintains its charm.  I have just always been amazed that I grew up in rural southeastern oklahoma on a farm and we had city water (actually a member of a rural water district, but its still city water) and we moved here (what i call the city) and now have a water well.  I had chickens, cows, caught our own fish for the fish fry every weekend, never swam in a pool but did in lots of horse tanks, and never had a water well till i moved to the city.  I actually have a great job, live in a very nice home in a very upscale neighborhood in Choctaw (my family cant believe that my shop out back is bricked), but i will always be from the country. I enjoy Choctaw every day and hope to live here for a long time, but would like to see some shops and dinning options open up around here in time.

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## aknight730

We are looking into building a home in choctaw, coming from a small town, I am a little worried that this town square IS going to turn Choctaw into a new mwc, which we dont want to live in. We want to stay with the small town atmosphere, low traffic, low crime, and a little bit of a drive away from a highway.  Should we look into other small towns instead?

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## John1744

I may be a bit biased but living on the outskirts of Harrah I find it to be a good balance between city and town. You get all the town perks like sewage, trash and water, plus a police dept and fire dept along with a nice rural feel since it is a very small town. But the nice thing is it's barely ten minutes from Choctaw, fifteen-twenty minutes to Midwest City and also twenty minutes from Shawnee. 

Just kind of a heads up.

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## BoulderSooner

> We are looking into building a home in choctaw, coming from a small town, I am a little worried that this town square IS going to turn Choctaw into a new mwc, which we dont want to live in. We want to stay with the small town atmosphere, low traffic, low crime, and a little bit of a drive away from a highway.  Should we look into other small towns instead?


no town center will not turn choctaw into anything like MWC ... it will make choctaw a better place to live

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## RadicalModerate

I lived in The Choctaw Area for years.
For the sake of Balanced Development,
hopefully this one is on the SOUTH side of NE 23 . . .?

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## BoulderSooner

> I lived in The Choctaw Area for years.
> For the sake of Balanced Development,
> hopefully this one is on the SOUTH side of NE 23 . . .?


the train tracks run just south of NE23rd  so there is no room to develop along 23rd in choctaw

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## MDot

> the train tracks run just south of NE23rd  so there is no room to develop along 23rd in choctaw


How often do trains even come along out there? If I'm not mistaken, isn't that the line that the Arkansas-Oklahoma RR operates on?

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## RadicalModerate

*"the train tracks run just south of NE23rd so there is no room to develop along 23rd in choctaw"*

Point well taken.
At least in regard to The South Side of NE 23 between Henny on the west--possibly even unto Hiawassee--and The 62 East Viaduct (a.k.a. The Choctaw Bridge/Overpass/Skateboard Ramp).
I sit corrected.

(not to mention that the specific wilderness area in question is a watershed/flood control/maybe even endangered species habitat.)

Good call. =)

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## grandshoemaster

Maybe this project was taking so long because they knew this news was about to be confirmed.



http://newsok.com/walmart-planning-t...adlines_widget

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## Spartan

Oy veigh.

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## RadicalModerate

Doesn't Walmart already have a Stuporcenter over at 23rd and Douglas?
(That's, like, only a few miles west of Choctaw.)

Oh. Wait. I forgot that Golden Goose Flea Market is draining off most of their business . . .

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## dmoor82

Sorry,but this is STUPID!Choctaw doesnt have the population base for a WM and there is allready one just West on 23rd and Douglas.Are they hoping to draw from Jones,Harrah,Nicoma Park?

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## JamesP

> Sorry,but this is STUPID!Choctaw doesnt have the population base for a WM and there is allready one just West on 23rd and Douglas.Are they hoping to draw from Jones,Harrah,Nicoma Park?


I agree this is ridiculous, MWC WM is ten miles if that away from Choctaw and while Choctaw could use a state of the art grocery store, Harrah has a perfectly fine Country Boy Market that is a very large supermarket. 

I feel for Jeff Williams of Williams grocery and Danny Boyle at Country Boy, they've both been so kind to the communities around us that I pray the business they've built will be maintained.

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## grandshoemaster

A movie theater?  Really?
http://eastword.net/oklahoma/article...o-choctaw.html

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## dmoor82

OK,A Movie theatre in Choctaw but not ONE in MWC?

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## BrettM2

This is all great for Choctaw and generating revenue.  If the theater is decent, it'll keep people from going to the standard theaters in the area (obviously won't compete with the Warren for experience).

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## BoulderSooner

this theater and supercenter will be closer to those living on the east side of MWC  than even the MWC shopping areas ..    east MWC/west choctaw is an area that is growing crazy fast ..

and this new Wallmart supercenter will be almost 6 miles aways from the one at 23rd and douglas

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## mmonroe

this is speculative at best, but I heard some time ago that Tinker actually gave incentives to employees who built homes farther away from the base...   and coupled with the East is in initiative, i'm not surprised of the increase in that area.

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## bombermwc

I doubt that's the case....why would tinker care where you live? Plus why would they give incentives while they are making staffing cuts and are at a hiring freeze?

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## mmonroe

this was 3 years ago directly from the mouth of an ATC at Tinker.. thats my source.

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## BrettM2

As someone who works at Tinker, I can confirm that many people here don't have any basis in reality.  Not confirming or denying the incentive, but I haven't heard of it.

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## mmonroe

> as someone who works at tinker, i can confirm that many people here don't have any basis in reality.


hahahaha!

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## bombermwc

Yeah i'm still going to call a line of bull on that one. Someone might be putting out a rumor that they heard from someone else, but it's not happening.

Plus it's also counterproductive for them to want employees living far away...that means it takes them longer to get there if they are needed quickly and gives more of an excuse to not come in if there's bad weather...takes more effort to come in.

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## mmonroe

speculative

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## Redskin 70

> Yeah i'm still going to call a line of bull on that one. Someone might be putting out a rumor that they heard from someone else, but it's not happening.
> 
> Plus it's also counterproductive for them to want employees living far away...that means it takes them longer to get there if they are needed quickly and gives more of an excuse to not come in if there's bad weather...takes more effort to come in.


I know for a fact that Base relocation services  tell the officers when they come in they should consider Edmond or Norman

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## mmonroe

all the support mwc gives to the base and that's how base relocation gives back... now that is some bull of different kind.

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## bombermwc

That's not the same as giving them an incentive. They might say "oh you don't want to live in MWC", but that's not like they are giving them money to live further away. 

I'd agree, that's some crap though and if someone in relocation is saying that, then they should be disciplined or fired.

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## BrettM2

Many of the higher officers and civilians live in Edmond for the status symbol.  They play the politics game with every part of their lives, private is no different than public.

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## Thunder

> this is speculative at best, but I heard some time ago that Tinker actually gave incentives to employees who built homes farther away from the base...   and coupled with the East is in initiative, i'm not surprised of the increase in that area.


*Correct!*

This is a known fact for quite some time.  TAFB has been doing as much as they can to keep homes and businesses far away from the area as possible.  There is a deaf couple who were given incentives by TAFB to build a new home further east and part of the compensation was for longer drive distance.  

I can understand why TAFB want to keep homes and businesses far away (recent example of witnessing a plane brushing the treetops at MWC's Festival of Lights).  A lot of planes are flying dangerously close to the buildings and trees.  I remember one plane flew dangerously low to Crest Market (Home of Rock Bottom Prices) and I could hear/feel the powerful engines along with the amazing view of the underside and the spinning engines.

However, it is ultimately up to the people and businesses for locating within such close distance.  I personally think an agreement should be signed that TAFB can not be sued (the same as Sprint customers sign a contract stating they can not sue the company).  Everyone choose their own risk.

Incentives can be declined/rejected, but the risk goes up.  One example, MWC feels safety is below glamor when the enhanced shopping strip was built on 29th Street.  The same for Del City's OnCue filled with thousands of gallons of gasoline with extreme potential to become a huge fireball inferno. 

mmonroe, I just want to say once again, you are correct!

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## Thunder

> Sorry,but this is STUPID!Choctaw doesnt have the population base for a WM and there is allready one just West on 23rd and Douglas.Are they hoping to draw from Jones,Harrah,Nicoma Park?


*Incorrect!*

It is not stupid.  This is very common for Walmart to build within several miles of each of their own stores.  You have to remember the growing population of humans, so there will always be an urgent need to build more stores to ease the stress of one store handling extreme load and wearing out quickly.  Yes, there will be customers of the nearby towns and they will be very thankful of not having to use precious time and gas to reach a much further distance Walmart store.  




> I agree this is ridiculous, MWC WM is ten miles if that away from Choctaw and while Choctaw could use a state of the art grocery store, Harrah has a perfectly fine Country Boy Market that is a very large supermarket. 
> 
> I feel for Jeff Williams of Williams grocery and Danny Boyle at Country Boy, they've both been so kind to the communities around us that I pray the business they've built will be maintained.


Ridiculous? *Incorrect!*

10 miles is the least acceptable distance to build another store.  Just because there is a Walmart does not automatically doom a nearby business.  You have to understand that it is ultimately on the smaller businesses to continue being smart and competitive in order to stay in business.  If they don't do that, then they will fail completely on their own.  They must move forward or die.  One grand example is the town of Checotah.  In that such tiny town, they have been supporting two full grocery stores for years.  Several years ago, Walmart rebuilt into a huge Supercenter and to this day, the two grocery stores are still in thriving business.  Checotah now have 3 grocery stores.  Last year (a trip to Eufaula for New Year party), I was amazed at the low/affordable prices at Nichols compared to Walmart.

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> *Correct!*
> 
> This is a known fact for quite some time.  TAFB has been doing as much as they can to keep homes and businesses far away from the area as possible.  There is a deaf couple who were given incentives by TAFB to build a new home further east and part of the compensation was for longer drive distance.  
> 
> I can understand why TAFB want to keep homes and businesses far away (recent example of witnessing a plane brushing the treetops at MWC's Festival of Lights).  A lot of planes are flying dangerously close to the buildings and trees.  I remember one plane flew dangerously low to Crest Market (Home of Rock Bottom Prices) and I could hear/feel the powerful engines along with the amazing view of the underside and the spinning engines.
> 
> However, it is ultimately up to the people and businesses for locating within such close distance.  I personally think an agreement should be signed that TAFB can not be sued (the same as Sprint customers sign a contract stating they can not sue the company).  Everyone choose their own risk.
> 
> Incentives can be declined/rejected, but the risk goes up.  One example, MWC feels safety is below glamor when the enhanced shopping strip was built on 29th Street.  The same for Del City's OnCue filled with thousands of gallons of gasoline with extreme potential to become a huge fireball inferno. 
> ...


[Citation Needed]

I work on Tinker, have for quite some time, and I've NEVER heard even a whisper of these "incentives". Hell, I WISH there were some sort of incentive. I'd be on that like stink on a monkey. I love free stuff.

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## BoulderSooner

> [Citation Needed]
> 
> I work on Tinker, have for quite some time, and I've NEVER heard even a whisper of these "incentives". Hell, I WISH there were some sort of incentive. I'd be on that like stink on a monkey. I love free stuff.


this ..

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## BrettM2

> [Citation Needed]
> 
> I work on Tinker, have for quite some time, and I've NEVER heard even a whisper of these "incentives". Hell, I WISH there were some sort of incentive. I'd be on that like stink on a monkey. I love free stuff.


+1

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## Drake

I thought this would die on its own, but guess not.

I can assure that there are NOT any financial incentives offered to anybody. In my line of work I would aware of anything that is out there

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## MikeLucky

> I can understand why TAFB want to keep homes and businesses far away (recent example of witnessing a plane brushing the treetops at MWC's Festival of Lights).  A lot of planes are flying dangerously close to the buildings and trees.  I remember one plane flew dangerously low to Crest Market (Home of Rock Bottom Prices) and I could hear/feel the powerful engines along with the amazing view of the underside and the spinning engines.


Do you enjoy just making stuff up? lol

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## Speckopolis

I live here in Choctaw, and am really excited about this project. I would LOVE to see a grocery store- maybe a wal-mart market or something other than Williams. Especially down near the Phillips 66 on Choctaw Road and 29th. All of us over here would love to be able to run up to a grocery store of some kind and be back within a few minutes rather tha 45 mins  of driving round trip to williams or target.  BUT back to the Town Square project... 

As a resident of Choctaw, I would love to see some more places to eat and some shopping. We really need to beef this place up. Eventually a casino... a dog track... something to bring in some business- but this is a good start. I'm so glad to see something finally happening around here. And by the way- a community pool would be great too! 

Anyway...Now I have gotten off track. I love Choctaw. I want this place to grow. Property values can go up (now that I have a house here..  :Smile:

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## Speckopolis

I wish there was incentive for people at Tinker to do their job. Not saying EVERYONE doesn't work, but the radar has been down for 6 years, and nobody gives a crap. Work ethic sucks, and the young guys spend all day goofing off where my husband works, and I think it's disgusting that  the people in charge of them don't do anything about it. THEY would  rather not have conflict, and keep doing nothing!

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## BoulderSooner

what radar has been down for 6 years??        

just a note the pad site for phase 1 of this development is now graded and ready for the slab

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

X2, what radar?

As for work ethic...I work with some of the sharpest and hardest working people in my field. And I don't mean just in OKC, I mean period.

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## stick47

> X2, what radar?
> 
> As for work ethic...I work with some of the sharpest and hardest working people in my field. And I don't mean just in OKC, I mean period.


+1 The maintenance shop workers at Tinker are as good as or better than any you'll find anywhere. Wonder how Tinker wins all those awards if nobody cares and the work ethic sucks?

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## Dubya61

I was reminded in this thread about a coworker at a previous duty station who stayed late almost every night to tip back a few brewskies with his compadres.  Told his wife he had to stay late.  She was convinced he was the hardest working dude in the unit and I, who usually went home on time, didn't have the same work ethic.

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

I have a coworker that shows up two hours early for his shift every day and begs me to take off on his off-days so he can get OT.

Personally, I think he just doesn't like his wife much.

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## BoulderSooner

Choctaw's first Walmart is first confirmed tenant in Town Center project 
Plans for a large development project off NE 23 in Choctaw also include a splash pad, new City Hall, restaurants and other shops, according to Choctaw Mayor Randy Ross.  

CHOCTAW — Dirt work is nearly complete on Choctaw Town Center, a large development project on NE 23.

Walmart is building a 150,000-square-foot Supercenter here, the first Walmart in Choctaw, a city of about 11,000 east Oklahoma City.


Other plans for the project include a splash pad, new City Hall, retail and restaurants, said Choctaw Mayor Randy Ross.



Read more: http://newsok.com/choctaws-first-wal...#ixzz22VE0FrdK

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## lasomeday

WOW!  This project is HORRIBLE!  The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.

They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!

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## Corndog1

I like how they say and other tenants.  Who are these other folks.  What restaurants are talking to them, lets get the list out and see who is really coming.  Tons of rumors flying, cant wait to see what really happens in the next year.  Still interested to see if the Walmart on Douglas remains open when Choctaw finally is open, one rumor is that it is closing, i hope that isnt true.  Hate for that one to close.

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## Soonerman

I doubt they close the one on Douglas. Isn't it still a pretty new store?

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> WOW!  This project is HORRIBLE!  The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.
> 
> They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!


Would you rather all the people in Choctaw commute 20-30 miles to get their groceries?

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## mcca7596

> Would you rather all the people in Choctaw commute 20-30 miles to get their groceries?


That has nothing to do with the layout of the development. Honestly by that logic, you would want something that is able to be walked to so you don't even have to get in a vehicle at all, but alas, I'm sure this development will not be friendly to pedestrians.

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

You guys and your pissing and moaning about urban sprawl.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Spartan

What does it say about a community to build a new City Hall and a Walmart in conjunction?

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## Lauri101

> What does it say about a community to build a new City Hall and a Walmart in conjunction?


New submission ideas for peopleofwalmart.com ?

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## BoulderSooner

> WOW!  This project is HORRIBLE!  The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.
> 
> They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!


this is a great project and a huge win for choctaw ..

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## bombermwc

Yeah i don't know why all you people are complaining. If you've every actually VISITED where this is at....you're no where near ANYTHING. It's a good 15 minute drive to get into actual MWC for shopping. Why would you say people should have to go there? When you build in Choctaw, you create a pull from the entire area....Nicoma Park, Harrah, Jones, Luther, etc. Granted, there aren't a lot of folks out there, but it also saves half the drive time for a trip to something like WalMart if they build in Choctaw. 

I don't really understand the problem here. It's really comparable to building something in Peidmont. They're connected by a "highway" that still has a 50mph limit so don't call it an interstate. And there is currently very little commercial shopping there, but with a population that continues to grow. So should Choctaw just say, "no please don't build here because we want to drive in for everything"? That's just stupid. Not to mention the fact that Choctaw is and never has been part of any light rail plan because of its lack of population. And given that it's more rural than urban, how exactlly do you expect someone to get around without a car? 

I'm with Boulder, it's a great win for Choctaw. It's not some massive huge thing, but it's SOMETHING, which is a major difference for them. If you don't believe it, take 23rd some time out to Choctaw....take a gander at their plethora of shopping options and get back to me.

----------


## WilliamTell

I live in this area and im kinda bitter sweet about it all. Yeah its closer, yeah its more convienent, it will be good for tax dollars for the city BUT.....

I think most people who live in this area moved here to get away from the city and didnt want to move to one of the other suburbs moore, norman, edmond, yukon that ALL feel like your still living in the city. I've always thought why have a 30 minute plus commute to work to live in the exact type of neighborhood, etc that you would get in the city. I've lived in edmond before and its slightly sad the more and more developed this side of town gets the less rural it feels. I dont need a 7/11 on every corner, i like stop signs instead of lights, and i dont need a strip mall or a walmart every couple of miles. If i want that i could go to any of the other 15 walmart shopping districts in the city. 

People like convenience and it will drive up house and property values, but sometimes the quality of life or lifestlye you like gets lost in the process.

----------


## RadicalModerate

> Which part of this exactly resembles or reminds you of a Town Center?   I really can't stand it when developers get away with calling developments something it is not and the media just continues to quote it.  
> 
> The article should read "Choctaw's Retail Park 'Town Center' Secures Wal-Mart as First Tenant"
> 
> Call stuff what they are.
> 
> Attachment 1967


Shouldn't that be "Call stuff what they is" . . . ?
Sorry . . . The Grammer Nazi interferred . . . 
The correct speelling is: "Call stuff stuff. Let the other stuff b. 'kay?"
Oops . . . make that "schpealing."

Nothing like keeping a formely rural/suburban community "quaint" and "winsome" like adding an accessory from Arkansas . . .
Especially if it is packaged in a Big Box.

----------


## mmonroe

This whole plan is sh!t, i've said it.  Between all the Political tripe in the city office, and now the City of Choctaw is trying to catch up with what every other community is doing around it.  Can't hate them for wanting better, but don't send in a planner who just doesn't know what they're doing or talking about.  Pipe dreams Choctaw, pipe dreams.

----------


## Drake

Help me understand.

So should the city of Choctaw have turned down a chance at a Wal Mart or some other big box retailer?

----------


## mmonroe

I'm not against the idea of Choctaw having a Wal*Mart.  What I am against is POOR PLANNING.

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## bombermwc

It's definitely not the best site plan I've ever seen, but hey...it's at least SOMETHING for them. If I lived in Choctaw, i'd rather have this than nothing.

----------


## Just the facts

I'll bet in 2 years they end up with a traffic problem, which they will spend millions to fix, but will actually make traffic worse, and then in 15 years Wal-Mart will move down the street leaving an empty shell that will become an eyesore, and the whole process will repeat.  Good luck with that.  It seems some people never learn, focusing on short term returns instead of long term costs.  They would be better off with nothing.

Anyone else see what is wrong with this sentence from a planning perspective?



> Rendering shows Choctaw Town Square, a new development being built on NE 23.


They should have built this along Main St where they have 2 traffic roundabouts and a lot of their customers could walk.

----------


## jn1780

> I live in this area and im kinda bitter sweet about it all. Yeah its closer, yeah its more convienent, it will be good for tax dollars for the city BUT.....
> 
> I think most people who live in this area moved here to get away from the city and didnt want to move to one of the other suburbs moore, norman, edmond, yukon that ALL feel like your still living in the city. I've always thought why have a 30 minute plus commute to work to live in the exact type of neighborhood, etc that you would get in the city. I've lived in edmond before and its slightly sad the more and more developed this side of town gets the less rural it feels. I dont need a 7/11 on every corner, i like stop signs instead of lights, and i dont need a strip mall or a walmart every couple of miles. If i want that i could go to any of the other 15 walmart shopping districts in the city. 
> 
> People like convenience and it will drive up house and property values, but sometimes the quality of life or lifestlye you like gets lost in the process.


When traffic gets too bad people will move 10 miles east to avoid the traffic. Then later they will start complaining about being too far away from Walmart. Walmart will then build a store closer and the process will repeat all over again. 

Until gas prices makes it too expensive to drive to work anyway.

----------


## Just the facts

> Until gas prices makes it too expensive to drive to work anyway.


One thing is for sure - more people driving will result in higher gasoline cost.  I went back over to Tampa last week to see the old homestead and if you want to see a city decimated by freeway construction, urban sprawl, and unaffordable gas prices go see Tampa.  That city is at the epicenter of suburban collapse.  They can't afford to maintain any of it.  Thank goodness we moved away from there when we did.

----------


## bombermwc

Traffic? I don't think people in Choctaw have any concept of traffic. You put a stoplight at the entrance to that place and you won't have to worry about crossing 23rd...and 23rd traffic will stop for all of a whole minute. 

Sorry if this sounds crappy, but there's more traffic on Air Depot in MWC as you try to cross the same number of lanes from Sonic or something than 23rd has on it. And 29th has twice that for a much larger shopping area. So if traffic is your only complaint about this project, i think you have far too much free time. Things are relative.....

----------


## Just the facts

> Traffic? I don't think people in Choctaw have any concept of traffic. You put a stoplight at the entrance to that place and you won't have to worry about crossing 23rd...and 23rd traffic will stop for all of a whole minute. 
> 
> Sorry if this sounds crappy, but there's more traffic on Air Depot in MWC as you try to cross the same number of lanes from Sonic or something than 23rd has on it. And 29th has twice that for a much larger shopping area. So if traffic is your only complaint about this project, i think you have far too much free time. Things are relative.....


A thousand mile journey starts with a single step.

----------


## bombermwc

And so what's that supposed to mean? Because there will be traffic (ie meaning people shopping here at <shock> a retail site), we should not do it? I'm just not seeing where the actual basis on the arguement is. No matter where you add reatil, it causes increase in traffic in that area. It doesn't matter what or where it is. That's sort of the point of any retail establishment...get people to come shop at your store. 

And if we're talking walkability, then forget it in regards to Choctaw. We should no more discuss walkability than we would for say Purcell. Actually I think Purcell has more retail options. The city of Choctaw only has 11K residents, and they are very spread out over a mostly rural layout. Let's not try to apply an urban label to a most decidedly NOT urban town.

----------


## Just the facts

Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions.  Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St.  Then they screwed that up and approved this project.  I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions.  Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St.  Then they screwed that up and approved this project.  I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.


choctaw is rural america ..     this project is a huge gain for the city ..

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions.  Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St.  Then they screwed that up and approved this project.  I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.


choctaw is rural america ..     this project is a huge gain for the city ..

----------


## RadicalModerate

I used to live out around Choctaw and it is rural. This project is a huge gain for the city.  They should figure out a way to build it on the south side of the railroad track.  That's all. The dirt excavated to raise the grade to a proper level for drainage could come from an area designated as a good spot for a proper "decorative lake" adjacent to Highway 62.  They could stock the lake with fish.  Probably not trout, but some sort of fish.  Of course, bike paths and walking trails could be incorporated into the design along with some upscale rural restaurants.

----------


## mmonroe

did you just say "upscale rural restaurants"?  Examples please.

----------


## Roger S

Arby's would be upscale for Choctaw. ;+) .... Ok, ok... I grew up there. I'm allowed to joke about it.

Examples might be places like Stark's Fine Dining in Pauls Valley, Fireside Dining near Lake Murray, and there is a place down in the Southeast part of the state that the name of slips my mind right now but they have been featured in print and on television.

----------


## Just the facts

There is a huge difference between rural and sprawl.  Choctaw is becoming rural sprawl (the worst kind of land use).  They should try for country urban.

Pwllheli, Wales, UK - popoulation 3,861.

----------


## BrettM2

> There is a huge difference between rural and sprawl.  Choctaw is becoming rural sprawl (the worst kind of land use).  They should try for country urban.
> 
> Pwllheli, Wales, UK - popoulation 3,861.


Which was founded in the 14th century and probably wasn't developed as homesteaded farm country.  Maybe this isn't a perfect development but I think it damn good for Choctaw.  Better than anything they've had before.

----------


## Just the facts

What does the age of a city have to do with good planning?  I'm not saying don't build WalMart - I am saying build just a little east of where they selected.  Why is that so controversial?  Why is there so much opposition to making something better?

----------


## bombermwc

I totally agree Brett. And JTF, age has EVERYTHING to do with it. Remember that in the 14th century, cars weren't invented yet. Facepalm. They also didn't have WalMart back then, so the concept of a big-box store and the land it took up, wasn't an issue. That would constitute half the population's footprint in a 14th century town. London had what, 100K people in the 14th century? Not to mention, they build roads like that to prevent invading armies from having a clear, straight path to take over the town. There are only about a million reasons why that logic is flawed.

At the end of the day, this is a private development as well. They build where they get the land for the price they want. 

I don't understand why there is so much controversy here either. There should have been MUCH more over Town Center in MWC where they tore out 3/4 mile worth of homes to build it. And here we are complaining about a walmart....in choctaw? In an area void of any real retail? At least this site plan also includes other retail as well. It's not the best siteplan ever, but it's far better than anything you'll find in any other small town in OK.

----------


## RadicalModerate

> did you just say "upscale rural restaurants"?  Examples please.


Cedarvale Trout Restaurant (and gardens).
The Front Porch 
Four Palms Supper Club
Junction House
The Hungry Farmer
The Trough and Bucket
Chair Crushers
Meers Store

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## mmonroe

Got it @RM

I'm not against Choctaw having this development.  You say it's better than nothing, but why start out on the wrong foot with poor planning.

----------


## mgsports

Any chain they can get is good.

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## mmonroe

well.. put the cart before the horse and see how far he pulls it.

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## bombermwc

mmonroe - could you maybe list what you consider to be the points of poor planning? I'm not trying to be a terd, but maybe if someone did that, it would help us to guide the discussion to more exact points.

For me, the main problem is the site layout. It makes use of too much "street-like" area and pavement rather than having connected structures. There are a lot of islands and no "continents". Now i can see how some of that would be needed. Pad sites for fast food at the front of the development usually want their own islands of non-connected parking lots. Meaning, Taco Bell doesn't want their parking lot directly connected to Jack-In-The-Box <-just throwing names in there so don't get all excited or whatever. Once you move to the right (if i remember the orientation, east), then it gets sort of stupid to me. The buildings are facing the wrong directions. They're rotated in such a way that they disconnect the user from the lots even. 

Now all that being said, i've never seen a siteplan that labeled what they expect/hope the structures to contain. If some of this turns out to be office space rather than retail, then it makes more sense. So before i make any more statements about my opinions here, i'd like to see that. Sometimes an expected masterplan makes a big difference in how the site is used. A mixed-use area would be VERY different from retail only.

Anyone have one of those?

----------


## MikeLucky

> There is a huge difference between rural and sprawl.  Choctaw is becoming rural sprawl (the worst kind of land use).  They should try for country urban.
> 
> Pwllheli, Wales, UK - popoulation 3,861.


Country urban???  LOL.  Get the heck out of here with that nonsense...

I guess you just don't get it.  The people that live in choctaw (and places like it) DON'T WANT URBAN.  If they wanted urban, they wouldn't live in Choctaw.  It's okay for urban to stay in urban areas and the suburbs to look like the suburbs.  Why are you so intent on shoving your urban lifestyle on EVERYONE?

----------


## mcca7596

> Country urban???  LOL.  Get the heck out of here with that nonsense...
> 
> I guess you just don't get it.  The people that live in choctaw (and places like it) DON'T WANT URBAN.  If they wanted urban, they wouldn't live in Choctaw.  It's okay for urban to stay in urban areas and the suburbs to look like the suburbs.  Why are you so intent on shoving your urban lifestyle on EVERYONE?


Kerry's point is not nonsense. Urbanity has nothing to do with the population of a place; it's all about how buildings are oriented, with infrastructure being built on the human scale. 

Urban simply means the presence of people versus rural land; people have to get these negative notions of huge places that are dirty out of their minds when they hear the word urban.

From Choctaw itself: this is more urban than this just a few blocks away.

----------


## Just the facts

> Yes.  If you don't want to live in "Urban" don't move to the "City".  The City of Choctaw, needs to recognize that it is harder to maintain City level of services when properties are used so poorly.  Low-density is just more expensive.  Dramatically so.  
> 
> The founders of Choctaw certainly didn't build it in a rural way. 
> http://www.okgenweb.org/~okchocta/ph...historical.htm


http://digital.library.okstate.edu/e...s/C/CH048.html




> A community emerged on the east eighty acres of his land, a postal designation for Choctaw City was issued in early 1890, and town lots were surveyed and laid out. When he relinquished title in 1892, a village of approximately 112 and a thousand inhabitants of the surrounding township supported twenty businesses.


In 1892 with only 112 residents that had 20 businesses.  Today they have over 11,000 people and I'll bet less than 20 businesses.  Progress?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Are there any pictures or renderings of what of this shopping complex is going to look like?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> http://digital.library.okstate.edu/e...s/C/CH048.html
> 
> 
> 
> In 1892 with only 112 residents that had 20 businesses.  Today they have over 11,000 people and I'll bet less than 20 businesses.  Progress?


or 100's of business .... but that doesn't interest you right ...

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## kevinpate

> ...  In 1892 with only 112 residents that had 20 businesses.  Today they have over 11,000 people and I'll bet less than 20 businesses.  Progress?


Where did you get a notion that Choctaw had fewer than 20 functional business operations? More than double that are listed by their C of C, and that's only going into the C's of the alphabetical listings (and only counting the listings with actual Choctaw addresses. See http://www.choctawchamber.com/member-directory.html )

----------


## Just the facts

Kevin - go check the addresses of those businesses.  You don't have to be in Choctaw to be a member of their CC.  Even a Choctaw mailing address doesn't mean you are in the city limits.  However, they do have more than 20 so I stand corrected.

----------


## bombermwc

Well i think there is something to JTF's statement. Yes, the city, really isn't it technically a village, has little business for it's population size. Like so many things, any major business presense has gone to MWC or Shawnee. Those in Choctaw make their choice of where to go...or even Harrah. 

Yes there are plenty small family-owned business in the area and a couple larger comapanies. But we're really still talking about a town that has failed to spur commercial growth given the amount of people that are in the area..not just the town itself. The city/school lines between MWC and Choctaw are so funky. You'll be way out at Anderson and switch between the two cities as you drive. And the school lines are even more crazy. But what those school lines do, is get people INTO the city of Choctaw for dropping off / picking up their kids as well. So why not run by the grocery store on the way home instead of going all the way into MWC and then driving back? The same story can be given for a great number of reatil options...and eateries. 

The difficult job for Choctaw is making out of state investors (ie the coporations that own those companies) understand that relationship. They look at the demographics of the city and don't get an accurate picture of what is there...and what POTENTIAL is there for "collecting" people from the surrounding areas that ARE rural in comparison to the rest of the metro.

----------


## mmonroe

> The founders of Choctaw certainly didn't build it in a rural way. 
> http://www.okgenweb.org/~okchocta/ph...historical.htm


Thats Choctaw COUNTY totally different from the City of Choctaw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw_County,_Oklahoma

----------


## mmonroe

This is true, I cringe every time I see OLD pictures of OKC and compared to today... (MAPS included) we've got nothing on the city of yesterday.

----------


## bombermwc

Enter the car = the exit of the feet and thus enter the larger waistlines of the citizens.

I'm not making an excuse for it, but the reasons why things were made in a ceratin why explain why you don't see it that way now. Choctaw is not and will never be urban. You could throw another 4 million people in OKC and it still won't be.....no more than MWC, DC, Mustang, Yukon or any other burb will be....that's why they're suburbs. We can fight the fact that cars exist, but they will not go away. Yes we should attempt to make urban developments more pedestrian friendly, but to say that one in Choctaw should be....i'm just not sure i buy into it.

Now that being said, i still feel like it's a bad design. One thing it does not do is lend itself to walking from one store to another. HOWEVER, like i've said before, it depends on what the plans are for those developments. If you're putting a dentist in one buidling and a taco bell in another on the other side of the siteplan....do you think they really NEED to be pedestrian friendly? Until we see what the wishlist for the masterplan has for those pad sites, we can't really say much. There's a big difference depending on what you plan to put in (which isn't very often what actually ends up there).

----------


## bombermwc

How does a WalMart fit into that plan though? Yes you can squeeze in some very small shops, but even the typical clothier will not fit in one of the spaces from those 100 year old buildings. If you're only looking to keep it uber local, then yes that works just fine. But if you're looking to expand to and sort of corporate world, that's just not going to cut it...not to mention any large retail options.

----------


## Just the facts

The prblem is WalMart isn't challenged to come up with a better store design.  They build 1000 parking space and plop a 140,000 sq ft store in the middle of it.  Then they do that 6000 times across America.  It takes zero effort on their part to do that kind of site plan.  However, they could build the way Macy's, Montgomery Wards, Kress, and others did for a hundred years (and the way Target is doing in some places today).  For lack of a better example, look at something along the lines of Main St in Disney World.  What appears to be multiple individual stores from the 'street' is really just one big store inside.

----------


## Just the facts

The problem isn't combining large retailers and small towns, it is keeping the buildings in scale.  WalMart (and others) don't try because no one tells them they have to.  WalMart has one mission - profit.  Their 'live better' slogan is just that - a slogan.  They don't actually mean it.

...and no, I am not againt profit.  However, I am against short-term profit at all costs.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

Some of you people are high.

Drive out here and look around. Traffic will never be a problem...Unless of course, you move WalMart to a tiny plot and put roundabouts in front of it. 

This isn't urban. This isn't suburban. This is extra-urban. People don't walk here. At all. When they do, they get hit by cars.

Why doesn't WalMart make pretty stores for your edification? So they don't have to charge $5 for a can beans like Macy's would, if they sold them. Or $9, like Disney would.

facepalm.jpg

You know how people say "Don't Edmond my Norman" and things of the like? Well...Here's mine..."Your urban/suburban planning doesn't work here, nobody gives a crap. WalMart could have dirt floors, people simply.do.not.care". And since we live here and you don't? Piffle.

In short? Choctaw has 99 problems, and WalMart aint one of them.

Shorter? PIFFLE

----------


## Just the facts

^Remember this post in 10 years

----------


## bombermwc

> Some of you people are high.
> 
> Drive out here and look around. Traffic will never be a problem...Unless of course, you move WalMart to a tiny plot and put roundabouts in front of it. 
> 
> This isn't urban. This isn't suburban. This is extra-urban. People don't walk here. At all. When they do, they get hit by cars.
> 
> Why doesn't WalMart make pretty stores for your edification? So they don't have to charge $5 for a can beans like Macy's would, if they sold them. Or $9, like Disney would.
> 
> facepalm.jpg
> ...


I totally agree. And i feel like people are trying to label Choctaw with something that it will never be....urban. and JustTheFacts, i can quote that 50 years from now as well.

I should point out that even in MWC, which is a much larger population center, more developed economic engine, and about as opposite of Choctaw as you can get....developments are still not created as pedestrian friendly. Town Center being the newest and largest, isn't very pedestrian friendly. The long line of big box stores isn't very friendly for that. I've walked from Lowes to Kohls before....but most people don't. And that's the point....Most people drive from one store to the next...even from Target to Kohls....and that's not gonna change.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> ^Remember this post in 10 years


OK. I'll eat my shoe if a new WalMart creates an insurmountable traffic conundrum in the thriving central suburban core of Choctaw, OK.

And you can just eat yours now, because you suggesting that it should have been planned with roundabouts in front of it makes me think that you're either 1) less logical than Taser branded underpants or 2) trolling.

----------


## Just the facts

Regardless of what we discuss on here, the pro-sprawl crowd is going to win because this is already being built.  In 10 years when you hate what your community has become atleast you will know what happened to make you not like it.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> Regardless of what we discuss on here, the pro-sprawl crowd is going to win because this is already being built.  In 10 years when you hate what your community has become atleast you will know what happened to make you not like it.


Tell you what, I'll keep my happy ass out of the urban sprawl threads and you keep yours out of CHOCTAW threads? M'kay? Deal?

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

Oh, and "pro-sprawl" crowd? WTF does that even mean. If I'm not against it I'm for it?

That's called a false equivalence, a logical fallacy. 

So again. You suck at logic, or you're a troll.

----------


## Just the facts

This is an urban sprawl thread.  Once again, no one is saying don't grow.  Just grow in an efficient and economically affordable way that limits the future tax exposure of the people of Choctaw.

Wouldn't it be better to have this:







instead of this:

----------


## MikeLucky

> This is an urban sprawl thread.  Once again, no one is saying don't grow.  Just grow in an efficient and economically affordable way that limits the future tax exposure of the people of Choctaw.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to have this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you live in the real world?

Oh yeah, it would be SO MUCH better to spend 30 minutes and circle the buildings 10 times to find a parking spot somewhere on the street everytime I need to go buy a cart full of groceries.  And, then once I've purchased the groceries I get to carry 20 bags worth to my car that's parked "who knows where" to load them in my car...

To answer your question... I would take option 2 EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK over option 1...  WHICH IS WHY I LIVE IN THE SUBURBS.  The LAST thing I want to do is try to live my current lifestyle in an urban setting, just because YOU think it's more aesthetically pleasing or more like the lifestyle you seem to think everyone MUST live.

When I go to bricktown for entertainment, I understand it's an urban setting and that's how it works there.  I have no problem with that.  But, despite how you feel about it, urbanization isn't what everybody wants.  I LIVE in a suburb because I like the way things are in the suburbs.  PERIOD.  People that live in Choctaw don't sit around and wish their community was more urban.  Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?

----------


## Just the facts

I guess I am just old enough to remember when small town America actually meant 'small' 'town' 'America'.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Some of you people are high.
> 
> Drive out here and look around. Traffic will never be a problem...Unless of course, you move WalMart to a tiny plot and put roundabouts in front of it. 
> 
> This isn't urban. This isn't suburban. This is extra-urban. People don't walk here. At all. When they do, they get hit by cars.
> 
> Why doesn't WalMart make pretty stores for your edification? So they don't have to charge $5 for a can beans like Macy's would, if they sold them. Or $9, like Disney would.
> 
> facepalm.jpg
> ...


Epic post man

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Tell you what, I'll keep my happy ass out of the urban sprawl threads and you keep yours out of CHOCTAW threads? M'kay? Deal?


Dude your post keep getting better and better. I totally agree with you

----------


## mmonroe

Everybody could use more Form based design in their concepts and plans.

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## bombermwc

JTF - if you're talking about small town america, why are you discussing urban design? Small town American was not urban....hello. Small Town America had a main street where all retail was in some small area. Urban design negates that possibility because reatil is spread all over the city.

And I would agree with the other posters. The next time you have your kids with you and need to buy groceries, you'll be headed to a big box...be it homeland, crest, or walmart. I 100% guarantee you don't shop at a place like in your pictures. You can want all you want, but the practical reality is people don't go to places like that. So if you want to make any money, you build the way people want it....and they don't want big boxes squeeze into small spaces. 

Now, those small spaces have their place for smaller businesses. Automobile Alley is an example of that...even these weird little "Town Whatevers" what are springing up all over america have them on a limited scale. They just happen to also include big box as well as an anchor. From the leasing company's perspective, it's much easier to survive if you have a large tenant in there too. And a lot less work because each one of the smaller tenants feel like they are as important...and on some level they are. But it's much easier to manage fewer large clients than a million smaller ones....and more stable to your checkbook.

----------


## mcca7596

> JTF - if you're talking about small town america, why are you discussing urban design? Small town American was not urban....hello. Small Town America had a main street where all retail was in some small area.


Because that is urban design; what else do you think it's referred to as? There is no such thing as small town design, just urban design on a smaller scale (nothing to do with the population or geographic size).

Towns were built along a general principal of concentration of goods and people from the beginning of civilization until the late 40's. I think you'd be surprised how many small towns emulated the layout of larger cities because they recognized what made them "civilized" and that's what they were trying to create here on the frontier: a new civilized region.

----------


## mcca7596

JTF, I think it would be appropriate if we started posting example of small towns in Oklahoma with nice urban design. Ones that first come to mind for me are Guthrie, Pawhuska, Bartlesville, and here are some dark horses: Wynnewood and Marlow. Look at their downtowns on google maps streetview, and even their neighborhoods with sidewalks and large mature trees.

----------


## Just the facts

I think the problem is a misunderstanding of the term "urban" so maybe we can clear that up.  When a building is constructed it's place on the surface of the Earth dictates its relationship to other items already on the surface of the Earth.  When the structure is placed adjacent to an existing structure that is urban design.  When the structure is placed at some distance from other structures that is suburban design.  So the only question that needs to be answered is, what is that distance?  That is answered by the open space (if any) between the structures.

If the open space created is defined by the buildings around it (kind of like walls) then the area leans 'urban'.  If the open space completely surrounds a structure so it is a monolith on the landscape then that area leans 'suburban'.  It has nothing to do with population, building height, land use, ethnic make-up, etc.  It is simply the relationship between buildings and open space.

It is safe to say that currently Choctaw has no established downtown, despite having something called Main St.  However, Choctaw used to have a downtown on Main St.  This project would have been the prime opportunity to re-establish that downtown.  The fact that this project is call Choctaw Town Center, which is used to envoke the mental image of a downtown, means that people crave that, even if they don't know they do.  As shown below, with a simple reconfiguration of the site plan they could have actually accomplish what the name implies they are trying to accomplish.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> This is an urban sprawl thread.  Once again, no one is saying don't grow.  Just grow in an efficient and economically affordable way that limits the future tax exposure of the people of Choctaw.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to have this:
> 
> instead of this:


No.




> I was not going to reply and just walk away (and I might regret actually replying still) but the lack of factual opinions being tossed around are astounding.
> 
> The notion that if you don't have a Wal-Mart that you are somehow forced to carry 20 bags around the block is false.  Hyperbole much?
> 
> The notion that small towns are not urban is false.  The grid, as nearly every town was laid out, is urban design.  The reason blocks and streets are laid out that way is because they support and promote an efficient use of land that can be recycled and improved upon over time.  From a more sub-urban to urban.  When cities were planned, the drawings were oftentimes done WITH buildings drawn in to illustrate a vision for the city.  So yeah, Choctaw planners had a vision or borrowed a template that is very urban. 
> 
> Sub-urban isn't land that isn't urban.  It just isn't urban completely.  It is a "sub" form of it, but it should follow basic rules that allow the evolution to urban.  Failed "sub-urban" isn't urban in any context because it lacks the ability to mature into more urban(see productive) use-cases over time.  Whether that be the way the roads are laid out or the utilities that support it.  Or more likely, zoning laws.  Sub-urban does not equal un-urban. 
> 
> I just moved out a neighborhood in Seattle where there were thousands of kids, no huge parking lots, and guess what, we had Safeway, Bartell Drug Store, Trader Joes... need I continue? Those businesses were more than happy to be there and in fact, are expanding in some cases by adding height to make two story stores and housing above.  Use case, meet better use case. 
> ...


Here's something neat just for Just the Facts:

0800 traffic looking in the direction of the WalMart that's going up...If you think traffic will be bad in 10 years on a 5 lane (I'm including the turn lane) road due to a WalMart...Tell me why EVERY OTHER WALMART IN TOWN doesn't have a 6 lane highway of it's own? It will be juuuust fine.




See the metal building amongst the trees? That's City Hall.

----------


## Just the facts

If the 5 lanes aren't needed, then why did they spend the money making it 5 lanes?

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> I think the problem is a misunderstanding of the term "urban" so maybe we can clear that up.  When a building is constructed it's place on the surface of the Earth dictates its relationship to other items already on the surface of the Earth.  When the structure is placed adjacent to an existing structure that is urban design.  When the structure is placed at some distance from other structures that is suburban design.  So the only question that needs to be answered is, what is that distance?  That is answered by the open space (if any) between the structures.
> 
> If the open space created is defined by the buildings around it (kind of like walls) then the area leans 'urban'.  If the open space completely surrounds a structure so it is a monolith on the landscape then that area leans 'suburban'.  It has nothing to do with population, building height, land use, ethnic make-up, etc.  It is simply the relationship between buildings and open space.
> 
> It is safe to say that currently Choctaw has no established downtown, despite having something called Main St.  However, Choctaw used to have a downtown on Main St.  This project would have been the prime opportunity to re-establish that downtown.  The fact that this project is call Choctaw Town Center, which is used to envoke the mental image of a downtown, means that people crave that, even if they don't know they do.  As shown below, with a simple reconfiguration of the site plan they could have actually accomplish what the name implies they are trying to accomplish.


They called it "Choctaw Town Center" because they had to call it something, it's in Choctaw, and "Sooner *Everything*" was taken. Not because anybody craves it. They could have called it "Frank's Gangrene Toe's Fish, Gun,  Steak, and Blowing Things Up Emporium", and the only thing people here would complain about was how long they tried to remember the name before giving up and calling it "Frank's".

Again, you guys are trying to shove a round peg in a square hole. This is the sticks. Not to mention Choctaw isn't going to spend the money to invent a thriving city core...Nor is WalMart.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> If the 5 lanes aren't needed, then why did they spend the money making it 5 lanes?


*shrugs*

Because it's a state highway? Honestly, I have no idea. 

How is traffic Sooner in Midwest City...Right at that WalMart/Home Depot/Many other stores area just off a cross-country interstate? Oh, it's just fine with probably 100 times the traffic Choctaw will ever see. Right. That's because Sooner has 8 lanes of traff....Oh no. My bad. It's only 4 lanes.

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## mcca7596

OGTS, you're not addressing the social implication points that Sid brought up though. So are you just saying, "That's the way we like it and damn be the consequences to our elderly or children who cannot be independent"?

You sound like someone who has lived in the area for awhile. I would venture to guess that your grandparents or the first generation of citizens in Choctaw didn't want to have to venture long distances for necessities. Personally, I think when people claim the need to have open space that it is a defense mechanism of not wanting to deal with the problems of the world or social issues. Interaction with other humans on a human scale produces results and solutions instead of isolationism and fear.

----------


## Just the facts

From the developers website:

http://choctawtownsquarellc.com/Home.html




> Choctaw Town Square, LLC has partnered with the City of Choctaw to Design and *Develop the "New Town Square",* which is located on 39.30 acres of land the City bought on N.E. 23rd Street.  The City has a Mayor and City Council that has taken aggressive steps to secure the future of Choctaw and it's constituents. Choctaw Town Square, LLC and their team of Architects, Engineers, Contractors, Marketing, and Real Estate professionals are excited to be involved in the *re-creation of the "New Town Square".* It is a much needed development for this Bedroom Community.  The "New Town Square" will allow a local place for their community to shop, eat, and spend quality time with their families, *while enjoying the "Home Town Feeling" of their Community*.


Orignal proposal:



Someone cared at some point.  Not sure why they don't care now.  Maybe they should start caring again.

----------


## mcca7596

> Again, you guys are trying to shove a round peg in a square hole. This is the sticks. Not to mention Choctaw isn't going to spend the money to invent a thriving city core...Nor is WalMart.


It's not about Choctaw specifically so much as just trying to create an awareness of larger issues.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> Thanks for the quick reply.  And like I said, I completely respect your opinion, and choice. 
> 
> My original comments on this thread were more of the "bummed out" nature that Choctaw didn't use this development as an opportunity.  But like you and others have shown, this doesn't sound like a community that wanted it. 
> 
> Again, appreciate the replies.  Not sure what you mean by the projecting comment but I will re-read my comments and internalize them with yours.  
> 
> On that note, congratulations on your new Wal-Mart.


This is the paragraph to which I was referring: 




> The funniest part about the some of these positions taken is that there is an subtle opinion that without "sprawl" (which is what JTF, myself, and others are trying to prevent) people actually have fewer choices. Like their life is subpar. I can't tell you how happy we were to be able to walk to work, walk to the grocery store, walk to 5 parks, and never once wish we owned a car. Automobile Alley could be a place you could live, work, recreate, and shop all in one place. The notion that that isn't possible is simply, flat-out, wrong.* Ever since I got here, people have not stopped asking me if I am going to buy a car. In Seattle, I got asked that this many times: 0. The difference is mostly cultural and based on a lack of exposure to successful neighborhoods.*


I didn't see anybody saying that life was bad in urban areas, just that it's not how we want to live. Maybe I missed that part though.

The part that I made bold is what I was talking about specifically. In a thread where you're telling people your ideas on how you think they should live, based on your experiences, then throw out there their lack of exposure when they suggest that you need a car...I say that you may have that a bit backwards and that you're the one who might be underexposed a tad. They're the ones that live here and KNOW that it's hard to get by without one. It's getting better, and I hope that it gets to a point where nobody asks you that anymore.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> OGTS, you're not addressing the social implication points that Sid brought up though. So are you just saying, "That's the way we like it and damn be the consequences to our elderly or children who cannot be independent"?
> 
> You sound like someone who has lived in the area for awhile. I would venture to guess that your grandparents or the first generation of citizens in Choctaw didn't want to have to venture long distances for necessities. Personally, I think when people claim the need to have open space that it is a defense mechanism of not wanting to deal with the problems of the world or social issues. Interaction with other 
> humans on a human scale produces results and solutions instead of isolationism and fear.


You're right, I didn't address the social implications that Sid brought up...Mainly because I don't have an answer. It's a complicated issue that I've never researched. It's not going to be fixed by cramming a WalMart into a tiny space, moving City Hall, and spending millions on 100 year plan for a real town center in Choctaw OK...I can tell you that.

And WOW...You assumed a whole LOT wrong.

I grew up in Moore. I've lived in downtown San Diego as well as downtown Denver (suburb too). I've also lived in SE OKC, Mustang, and now Choctaw. When I say I prefer it, it's because I prefer it. I've only lived here for around 3 years (and nobody in my family that I know of has ever lived here). Defense mechanism? Whatever. Do I SOUND like I have a problem dealing with issues? I'm quite the vocal SOB with my opinions. Fear? I've got a fear of my wife, that's about it. Maybe demon-possessed wood chippers, but they're loud and thereby easy to avoid.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> Good observation and catch.  Perhaps I was projecting a little. 
> 
> If I could rephrase that, I'd say that I don't want to tell people how they should live.  I'd like to protect the dignity of how I prefer to live.  Specifically from what I saw as, factless claims.  
> 
> I grew up in a town almost exactly like Choctaw, so I do get the difference.  As a councilman in Haskell, I certainly get more exposed to opinions like the one you hold.  One citizen actually voiced the opinion that they didn't want the city to grow at all.  Not a single new business, he said. 
> 
> I'll try in future responses to not take the conversation so personal and falsely assume it is personal where it isn't.


Nah, take it personal when it's directed at you. Live a little. Lash out online.

No wait...You used your real name. Don't do that. :Big Grin: 

And if you don't want to tell people how to live, why are you in this thread doing exactly that? I mean...You talk about how great living in a thriving urban core is...That's fine, sell it baby! But when people say "that's not how I want to live", and this thread is about a pretty rural WalMart (of all things), forcing the issue is going to go nowhere fast. That's like a Mormon knocking on the door of a Jehovah's Witness and trying to convince them how great it will be to live as a star.

Yeah, hyperbole much  :Big Grin:

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> Lol! I tried (maybe failed) to separate the issue.  I was trying to correct statements about how difficult it was to live 'urban' and second to shed a little light on the fact that Choctaw certainly could pull off something urban if it wanted to.  
> 
> The thread didn't start off about Wal-Mart if I recall.  Which is why I subscribed to it.  It was about a new development that to me, was intriguing because of the "rural", yet urban nature of it. 
> 
> Build urban baby, build urban! 
> 
> There, happy? ;-)


It's all good...And I have to admit that I didn't recall the beginning of the thread, I hadn't looked at it in probably a year (whenever my last post on it was), all I saw was people bemoaning sprawl and talking about people needing to walk more in a pretty rural area. And I had an extra 10 minutes, so I went to town, so to speak.

And yeah! Build urban! In OKC! It's nice to visit...And to take pictures of! ;-)

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## Just the facts

Out of curoisty - what do you like about living in Choctaw?

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

My space. I'm noisy, and I like quiet. So...In order to not offend people with loud noises while not being offended by their loud noises when I'm done, I moved to a place where there's a massive air buffer between our air tools and noisy toys.

I'm also a car guy, so I wanted space to build a workshop. I now have a place to make all the loud noises I want at all hours without worry of waking up somebody's baby or giving them a bad night.

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## Just the facts

How would a compact development centered around Main St negativley impact you more than a WalMart shopping center at 23rd and Henney?

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> How would a compact development centered around Main St negativley impact you more than a WalMart shopping center at 23rd and Henney?


Me personally? Well, I don't like walking for one. It hurts too much.

And there's really no point in making it compact in this area. You've yet to give me a good reason why it should be compact other than your opinions on how other people should conduct their lives and OMG URBAN SPRAWL.

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## Just the facts

You don't have to walk.  You can still drive your car.  I am just trying to find out why you prefer one over the other because clearly you are not indifferent on the subject.  Also, if you are shopping at WalMart walking can't be an issue because the stores are huge, with an even bigger parking lot  :Smile:

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

If my wife hands me a grocery list that's more than one row long, I make two trips to the store, a day apart. I'm in pain after about 30 minutes of walking.

However, my reasons are pretty irrelevant when you still haven't given me a valid reason why they should cramp it down and deviate from their norm (see: spent a lot more money than they need to in order to service the area) when they don't have to.

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## Just the facts

Actually, the urban design we favor is cheaper to build, maintain, and support.  That's why for 15,000 years of Human civilization they were built that way.  It wasn't until government intervention after WWII was the type of development being built now even possible.  Low density development requires a massive amount of public funds to support it.  Look at the land costs alone - they are taking 30+ acres to do what they could accomplish on 10 acres and they made the City of Choctaw buy the land.  Taxpayer in Choctaw are already out millions of dollars before the place even opens.  From a cost stand point it would have better for Choctaw to buy 10 acres and tell the developer to build a central parking deck (that could have been used by neighboring future developments so new parking didn't have to be built at all).

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## bombermwc

Oh good lord...you know what, this is the point where i just put my face in my hands and walk away. Neither side is getting anywhere here and i'm not interested in continuing an argument with a brick wall....peace out yo.

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## mmonroe

Not to mention... this is the Midwest City / Del City thread... not choctaw...

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## BoulderSooner

> If the 5 lanes aren't needed, then why did they spend the money making it 5 lanes?


not a state highway ... a federal highway ... route 62  from New york to el paso   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_62#Oklahoma

because it was one of the major east west roads across the united states ...  before I40 existed ...   my great grandfather and grandfather owned a service station on highway 62 in harrah .. and it was a major truck route

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## BoulderSooner

> Actually, the urban design we favor is cheaper to build, maintain, and support.  That's why for 15,000 years of Human civilization they were built that way.  It wasn't until government intervention after WWII was the type of development being built now even possible.  Low density development requires a massive amount of public funds to support it.  Look at the land costs alone - they are taking 30+ acres to do what they could accomplish on 10 acres and they made the City of Choctaw buy the land.  Taxpayer in Choctaw are already out millions of dollars before the place even opens.  From a cost stand point it would have better for Choctaw to buy 10 acres and tell the developer to build a central parking deck (that could have been used by neighboring future developments so new parking didn't have to be built at all).


your out of touch here ... this is such a no brainer i don't know where to start ... this will make the City of choctaw Millions and millions of taxes dollars in the next 30 years ...    one of the best choices that they have made .. 



and as far as land use ... the choice wasn't    A or B     it was  A   or leave the big empty land empty ..

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## Just the facts

nm

At the end of the day none of this really matters since the project is already under construction.  I just hope that next time small communities think twice before making the same mistakes so many other communites have made.

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## Plutonic Panda

Mustang Times, Walmart finalizes land purchase in Choctaw

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## bombermwc

That's odd that it was in the Mustang Times and not Eastword or something....

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## plmccordj

If you look at the heading of the web site it says Tuttle Times, Mustang Times, Minco-Union City Times AND Choctaw Times.  If you want to see what Eastword says, here is the link...

Coming soon to Choctaw - Eastword News - Midwest City, OK

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## plmccordj

Choctaw Town Square is suing the city

Choctaw center developer files suit over finance plan | News OK

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## bombermwc

There has to be more going on with this story than is said here. You don't have something that's had this many layers to it without something weird happening after this long. What should have been a quick project has been incredibly slow.

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## Corndog1

So is this thing dead now? Sure Williams is happy about this not happening.

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## Just the facts

With a $9.6 million up front cost to the City of Choctaw I wonder how many years away the break-even point was.

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## Plutonic Panda

Soooooo, it is dead?

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## John1744

If it's not dead all these suits aren't helping. Choctaw filed a counter suit against the developers.

Fraud countersuit filed against Choctaw developer - Eastword News - Midwest City, OK

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## WilliamTell

Im actually happy about this. There is a relatively new super walmart just a few miles down the highway, we dont need another one.

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## RadicalModerate

I think this is sort of interesting (from the article linked, above):

"The City is also questioning transactions between *AK Enterprises of NWA*, owned by Eldon Blackaby, Sherry Blackaby and Kurt Blackaby. In addition, they allege that CTS has defrauded the city and has engaged in a scheme in conspiracy with AK Enterprises of NWA., BBT Investments LLC, Vision Development, LLC, Eldon Blackaby, Sherry Blackaby, Kurt Blackaby and Josh Kyles to defraud the city."

Apparently, "Choctaw Town Square LLC" is really "AK Enterprises of NWA" (trans.?: Arkansas Enterprises of NorthWest Arkansas?) and headquarted in . . . (you guessed it): Bentonville, Ark.

I wonder if Choctaw is asking for the return of the "Key To The City" (that they gave these "developers" a while back) so they don't have to change all the locks.

Historical Reference Material:
http://www.mustangpaper.com/contenti...ase-in-choctaw

Suggested Reading: *"The Mark Inside"* by Amy Reading =)

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## flintysooner

> Im actually happy about this. There is a relatively new super walmart just a few miles down the highway, we dont need another one.


 I understand the article to stste that Walmart is proceeding.

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## Corndog1

Well, looks th same this year as it did last year. Huge dissapointment in my mind with this project and th information being let out on it by th city.

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## Plutonic Panda

Does anyone know what EXACTLY is going on? Is it still planned? Under construction? Canceled? Put on hole? Falling through as I type???????

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## Roger S

The Walmart is still a go. Don't know what's happening with the rest of it.

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## Plutonic Panda

''*After controversy, Choctaw to finally get its Walmart*
Construction is set to begin within the next two weeks as legal disputes head to mediation over Choctaw Town Square development.
By Brianna Bailey Modified: September 19, 2013 at 1:00 pm • Published: September 18, 2013

CHOCTAW — Construction on a Walmart Supercenter here is set to begin after a developer's feud with city officials bogged down progress on the 39-acre Choctaw Town Square development.


A crew from Concrete Construction in Norman pours concrete roads inside the development area Tuesday. Work on Choctaw Town Square development has begun again although the city and developer are still feuding in court. Photo by Jim Beckel, The Oklahoman. Jim Beckel
Work on the Walmart on NE 23 near Henney Road is set to begin in the next in the next two weeks, and the store will likely open its doors in spring or summer 2014, Choctaw City Manager Roger Nelson said.

The additional sales tax revenue the new Walmart will bring will help the city to fund projects like a new city sports complex, he said.

“What our financial advisers have told us is that the banks need to see that Walmart going up to get that funded,” Nelson said.

The Walmart also will lure other new retailers to the surrounding area, he said.

The city has poured about 5,000 cubic yards of concrete at the Choctaw Town Square site over the past few weeks to prepare for construction on the new Walmart, Choctaw Mayor Randy Ross said''

- After controversy, Choctaw to finally get its Walmart | News OK

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## Plutonic Panda

Developer sues Choctaw's mayor, city manager for defamation | News OK

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## bombermwc

This lawsuit seems like the developer is fishing for a reason to try and cover his butt after he was exposed as screwing over the people of Choctaw. I hope the judge can see through this thin veil of crap and then award some damages in the mayor and manager's favor.

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## Just the facts

They should all be sued for calling it a Town Center.  In my opinion the term "Town Center" invokes a certain mental image that this development is totally incapable of fulfilling and was only used to produce that mental image for the purposes of getting it approved.  That is fraud to me and should be prosecuted.

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## Tylerwilliams16

I was recently driving around Choctaw a few weeks ago and I saw that a Wal-Mart was going up and being built.

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## Plutonic Panda

New Walmart seems to be coming along and it's supposed to be open in July according to Choctaw Times.

Choctaw Times - Choctaw Times - 4/16/14

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## MFracas84

I can hardly wait.

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## Just the facts

> I can hardly wait.


Okay - I have to ask.  Are you being sarcastic?

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## MFracas84

No.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Okay - I have to ask.  Are you being sarcastic?


Kerry, I'm sure if you lived out in area where it takes 30 minutes or so to the nearest grocery store, you'd be happy for this as well. While I'm disappointed in the development and not a fan of another Walmart, I can understand where MFracas83 is coming from.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I can hardly wait.


How long does it take to get to the nearest grocer?

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## MFracas84

It depends on traffic. I live at I-40 and Choctaw and the nearest grocery store is nine miles away at the Douglas Crest.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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## Plutonic Panda

Yeah... I can understand that

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## Dubya61

Or, there's the Williams Foods at 23rd and Choctaw Rd (about 8 miles away)
Or, there's the Country Boy at 29th and Harrah Rd (about 9 miles away)
This is NOT 30 minutes to the nearest grocery store.
I get that this will be an improvement for some, but weren't people aware of what was out there when they moved ... out into the middle of nowhere?

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## bombermwc

Depends on how you define grocery store. If you've ever seen the places you mention Dubya, you wouldn't be comparing those to the Douglas Crest.....or a WalMart. It's like comparing the Norman Crest to the original Crest on Reno. Not the same.....

----------


## Just the facts

> I get that this will be an improvement for some, but weren't people aware of what was out there when they moved ... out into the middle of nowhere?


People want to live in the country for the peace and quite - and then get excited when the Walmart SuperCenter shows up.  Of course, in a few years the will need to move further out so they can have the peace and quite again.  That in a nutshell is the difference between urban and suburban.  Every new urban person enhances the experience of current urban people and every new suburban person decrease the experience of the current suburban people.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> That in a nutshell is the difference between urban and suburban.  Every new urban person enhances the experience of current urban people and every new suburban person decrease the experience of the current suburban people.


wrong. I do not feel that way. There's a difference between suburbanites who want to live in suburbia and people that want to live on the fringe of the city with little people.

----------


## Just the facts

> wrong. I do not feel that way. There's a difference between suburbanites who want to live in suburbia and people that want to live on the fringe of the city with little people.


Yes, but only in the number of people it takes to make them want to move.

----------


## ou48A

> Yes, but only in the number of people it takes to make them want to move.


No not in all cases….. Sometimes it’s about a desired life style…. In our area many people enjoy having space enough to keep horses and other things that need a little more land….. While at the same time being close enough to the big city to have a good job and enjoy some big city amenity’s…. 
If you want to live in a big city high rise go for it. It’s called freedom.

----------


## Just the facts

So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision?  How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded".  This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.

Wouldn't you like to move to the country - and stay in the country without having to move again?  You are supporting the very thing that is destroying why you moved there in the first place.

----------


## Roger S

> So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision?  How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded".  This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.


That is already happening without the Walmart. I would say the Walmart is the direct result of the influx of new subdivisions in that area.

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## Dubya61

> wrong. I do not feel that way. There's a difference between suburbanites who want to live in suburbia and people that want to live on the fringe of the city with little people.


Do you mean "few" people, instead of "little" people? or should I be insulted?
So these suburbanites who want to live in suburbia -- are they the same NIMBYs who don't want grocery stores to move into their area in Edmond?
Did they move to Choctaw, Oklahoma (with an estimated 1,676 employees in the city of Choctaw, per the city's own fact sheet) thinking there was a lot of amenities out there?  Why did they move there? to get away from the hustle and bustle that Wal-Mart will bring?
I simply cannot get my mind wrapped around that concept.
One does not build a bear trap, secure their ankle in the bear trap and then (with a clear mind) complain about the bear trap.
If you can't get the analogy, substitute the words "food desert" for "bear trap."

----------


## ou48A

> So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision?  How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded".  This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.
> 
> Wouldn't you like to move to the country - and stay in the country without having to move again?  You are supporting the very thing that is destroying why you moved there in the first place.


So what happens is that smart people buy enough land and at a distance far enough out that they don’t face that situation. Some are not smart enough to see what coming and make mistakes but they often eventually sell their land for a large capital gain and move on to greener pastures or by the time the Wal Mart comes they move to the old folks home with a lot of happy memories.

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## ylouder

A lot of good post from JTF in this thread. I live in eastern ok county and we've had neighbors who cheered this walmart and the loves truck stop, etc.

I don't get it.  We all paid alot of money to buy a larger parcel of land,  the expenses of upkeep on it, the daily expense of getting kids and yourself to work and school.

And then you want to say we need a mcds or grocery store open up 1/2 a mile from your house because you don't like driving?

Why not just live in any other part of the city or any other suburb that already has all of those things? Is this Choctaw Walmart going to be so much greater with better merchandise than the already existing Walmart just a few miles down the highway in Spencer (which is a really new and nice Walmart), or leaps and bounds better than the i40 and sooner Walmart, or the Walmart on 240?  Is mcdonalds going to make better burgers for a new location than the old location a few miles away, is the gas station going to have better gas?

Save yourself the enormous daily commute, the enormous cost in gas, and buy a house next too all of those things if you want them convenient to your house. Or dont move out to the country and then complain about you not having a place to buy crap at the drop of a hat.

Because next stop is  - this place is too crowded, lets move further out. Man I wish I didnt have to drive 10 minutes to get a burger, I need some crap at Walmart because I cant make list and I dont want the hassle of driving for 15 minutes. Yay Walmart is opening up soon and we are getting another mcds and subway. This place is too crowded.

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## ylouder

> So what happens is that smart people buy enough land and at a distance far enough out that they dont face that situation. Some are not smart enough to see what coming and make mistakes but they often eventually sell their land for a large capital gain and move on to greener pastures or by the time the Wal Mart comes they move to the old folks home with a lot of happy memories.


This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I'll respond to this absurdity once I can get to a computer. There is nothing but bias on here and neglecting the this does not have to be bad and can be very good for the town. 

All I will say for now is, if you want country and don't want to move - go out to the panhandle, western oklahoma, southeastern oklahoma, south western oklahoma.... I know people that have lived there throughout their entire life and haven't even seen a single home to up around them. 

If you want country and don't want development, 50-100 miles within a major metro area isn't the place for you. You could even locate 50-75 miles away from the core and you probably won't ever see anything developed around you.

I'm in class right now, but when I get out, I'll respond with more detail, even though most won't respond as it always seems to be when I really make my case to defend suburbs which I have done in the past here and no one was able or bothered to attempt and dispute any of it.

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## Dubya61

> I'll respond to this absurdity once I can get to a computer. There is nothing but bias on here and neglecting the this does not have to be bad and can be very good for the town. 
> 
> All I will say for now is, if you want country and don't want to move - go out to the panhandle, western oklahoma, southeastern oklahoma, south western oklahoma.... I know people that have lived there throughout their entire life and haven't even seen a single home to up around them. 
> 
> If you want country and don't want development, 50-100 miles within a major metro area isn't the place for you. You could even locate 50-75 miles away from the core and you probably won't ever see anything developed around you.
> 
> I'm in class right now, but when I get out, I'll respond with more detail, even though most won't respond as it always seems to be when I really make my case to defend suburbs which I have done in the past here and no one was able or bothered to attempt and dispute any of it.


Please don't respond with more absurdity.  If you want to live close to a McDonalds or Wal-Mart, then MOVE there.  Not the other way around.

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## Plutonic Panda

> This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.


its pretty clear what he is saying. You want country and have it stay that way, move out.... way out. Not 30< miles from a major metro and expect it to stay country forever.

JTF said he wants to be able to buy a country home and never have to move because the surrounding area becomes developed, well I have news for you: YOU CAN!!!!!

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## Plutonic Panda

> Please don't respond with more absurdity.  If you want to live close to a McDonalds or Wal-Mart, then MOVE there.  Not the other way around.


i expected that typical move closer to where you want crap. I'll respond in a couple hours with reason and balance.

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## Dubya61

> i expected that typical move closer to where you want crap. I'll respond in a couple hours with reason and balance.


How is that "crap"?  Is it not more logical for a person who want's a supercenter (averages from 100K to 250K square feet PLUS a monstrous parking lot) closer to them to move their (1K - 2.5K) square feet residence?

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## ou48A

> This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.


So you hate the very idea of freedom and rights of individual’s mistakes and all to choice how and where they live.
You sir are the stupid one and very extremely so, along with the guy you gave you a like for your post!

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## ou48A

> its pretty clear what he is saying. You want country and have it stay that way, move out.... way out. Not 30< miles from a major metro and expect it to stay country forever.
> 
> JTF said he wants to be able to buy a country home and never have to move because the surrounding area becomes developed, well I have news for you: YOU CAN!!!!!


The urbanites are too hard headed to ever understand that as long as the individual has freedom in this nation there is no way they are ever going to be able to tell people where they should live.
 Live and let live…. They hate the very idea….. They are self-centered people who won’t ever stop  telling everyone how they think other people should run their lives…….It’s good they are a very tiny minority of the population and that very few people give their way of thinking any serious thoughts.

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## Dubya61

> The urbanites are too hard headed to ever understand that as long as the individual has freedom in this nation there is no way they are ever going to be able to tell people where they should live.
>  Live and let live…. They hate the very idea….. They are self-centered people who won’t ever stop  telling everyone how they think other people should run their lives…….It’s good they are a very tiny minority of the population and that very few people give their way of thinking any serious thoughts.


That's a great attempt at misdirection.  It has nothing to do with freedom.  Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom.  Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)?  Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost?  Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to?  What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD?  Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted.  Guess they'll have to move!  Guess they've got that freedom.  Hey!  Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all.  It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
What evs.  Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans:  the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.

----------


## ou48A

> That's a great attempt at misdirection.  It has nothing to do with freedom.  Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom.  Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)?  Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost?  Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to?  What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD?  Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted.  Guess they'll have to move!  Guess they've got that freedom.  Hey!  Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
> It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all.  It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
> What evs.  Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans:  the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.


If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King.. let them.. Thats their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.


When you say Can you imagine  .What you and others are pushing is a *Utopian society* that isnt even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nations population.!

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## Plutonic Panda

> How is that "crap"?  Is it not more logical for a person who want's a supercenter (averages from 100K to 250K square feet PLUS a monstrous parking lot) closer to them to move their (1K - 2.5K) square feet residence?


Ok, look at this.

Could I move to McDonalds or a Walmart if I wanted to be closer to one? Sure. What is close for you might be far for someone else or vice versa. Close is a broad term.

Secondly: if your logic was followed of just move closer, than everyone would live downtown to be closer to work, school, and their entertainment which wouldn't require large highways and everyone would live right on top of each other. Something you and every other urbanist seems to push and attempt to force on people no matter what position they take. They(you) may try to say that isn't the case, but it's bullsh!t. I know it, you know it - I wasn't born yesterday man.

I can't tell you how many times I've said this on here, I WANT OPTIONS! Someone living in Choctaw shouldn't be deprived of a particular store, notably a good grocer, because you think they should just live closer to what they want. That is not fair and you are trying to take away options from people.

Look at how prosperous Dallas is; it is also sprawled out. Houston, Atlanta, Jacksonville, L.A., etc.... you better tell all of those cities, don't build any new stores or expand services because if people want those things, they need to just move closer. See how popular you get.

If you and Sid Burgess want to live on top of each other in a concrete jungle, great. But don't deprive me and other people who want a nice, peaceful, suburban setting with large setback filled in with green vegetation, and served by large 6 lane arterial roads and wide highways.

Let California fund it's 100 billion dollar HSR and let Texas finish it's 50 billion dollars worth of highway projects. Last I checked, more people are moving to Texas than California. I don't blame that on the HSR either, I applaud Cali for building it. My problem is when people get their panties in a wad for a 5 billion dollar highway project screaming "IT'S TOO MUCH". Yes, I understand it cost less mile per mile. My point remains valid.

This Walmart is being built for the City of Choctaw. It will be used by thousands of people and provide money back to the economy. Walmart is one of the largest single tax payers out there. If you have any personal vendetta against Walmart, don't hate the player, hate the game. The game is people who elected the city council who approved the store to be built.

You can't refute the facts. The facts are, this will be great for the city of Choctaw. A grocer is built to serve existing housing, not the other way around. The sheer fact JTF even suggest Walmart is being built for houses that aren't even there yet is a joke. I'm 20 years old and I know as much to know that isn't the case. Don't even try that with me.

The city of Choctaw can have typical neighborhoods like this



and still be a prosperous, attractive city to live in.

It needs balance. The core or "downtown" of Choctaw should be urban and making up a small percentage of the city land wise with the majority making up what I posted above with mixed-use developments such as Chisholm Creek Development. The city will be built how they want it to.

I always find it funny how people like JTF point to Europe of how to build sustainable, well, last I checked, the economy in Europe isn't doing so hot. The economy in the horrible, awful, cookie cutter, suburban cesspool known as Texaaaaaas on the other hand though...... do I have to say it? 

I speak for what I believe in. I speak my mind. I want places like Seattle here in OKC to make people like Sid happy and have great pedestrian corridors. I want a greenbelt like the one in Minneapolis here in OKC. I want light-rail here in the city to serve people who either can't afford cars or just don't want them. I also happen to love cities in Europe and even want to experience living in them one day.

I also want people like you to have places they love and enjoy about our city. I want it to prosper and boom, but just as we need/want a dense, urban core with mass transit, we also need/want a vast highway network serving suburban communities.

Now if you don't want to pay for those highways, than the majority of the city shouldn't have to pay for a streetcar most will never use.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision?  How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded".  This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.


What happens within 30> miles of a major metropolitan area? Hopefully the city grows.




> Wouldn't you like to move to the country - and stay in the country without having to move again?  You are supporting the very thing that is destroying why you moved there in the first place.


Ummmmmmm..... you can???? This country is not small, there is huge abundance in every state where there is vast farmland that will likely never be touched by development or subdivisions.

Take a guess where these photos were taken from...

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## Dubya61

> If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King….. let them….. That’s their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.
> 
> 
> When you say ”Can you imagine”  …….What you and others are pushing is a *Utopian society* that isn’t even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nation’s population….!


I think you're sort of making my point with your post.
If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King, let them.  If, however, people move in next to them and say, "You know what we need here?  We need a Burger King," how are they to fight back?  Become the hated NIMBYs?  That person that says they need a closer Burger King should move closer to the Burger King, instead!
Also, when you describe my statements as unrealistic, why is it unrealistic?  Shouldn't we shoot for the stars rather then being satisfied with enjoying a night light as entertainment?  The ability for a city to provide services is contingent upon it's ability to garner income.  The city that can best garner income has properties that have achieved their best possible use regarding property value and has expenditure requirements that are the least onerous.  Countless people that contribute to this forum have mentioned how hard it is for the City of Oklahoma City to provide adequate services to its residents because it's so miserably spread (sprawled) out.  If it's an unobtainable utopia to hope that the City of Oklahoma City to provide adequate services to its residents, then please consider me a dreamer.  I'll tell you, though, that one of the benefits of adhering to a new urbanism philosophy in managing a municipality, is an increased revenue base to the city by allowing every piece of property to reach it's maximum potential.

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## Plutonic Panda

> That's a great attempt at misdirection.  It has nothing to do with freedom.  Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom.  Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)?  Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost?  Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to?  What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD?  Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted.  Guess they'll have to move!  Guess they've got that freedom.  Hey!  Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
> It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all.  It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
> What evs.  Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans:  the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.


You're wrong. Dead wrong. OU48a is right. If you look at the requirements and "rules" of new urbanism, it's almost like the planner of the community would be a dictator.

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## Dubya61

> That is not fair and you are trying to take away options from people.


It's odd that you say I'm trying to take away options from people when you say the people living in Choctaw (who are probably there on purpose -- I'm pretty sure they weren't forced to move to some FEMA camp called Choctaw) should have their peaceful little hamlet disturbed by a Wal-Mart SuperCenter (because that's the be-all-end-all-acme of 'Murican culture?!?) and those who don't like it should move to the PANHANDLE!?!?!?!  Who's trying to take away options from people?!?!?!  I'm pretty sure that those who want to live 5 seconds away from a Wal-Mart still have that option in lots of other places!
Stop it with the outrageous statements.  Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard and think some more about who's losing what with the construction of this new Wal-Mart SuperCenter.

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## Dubya61

> You're wrong. Dead wrong. OU48a is right. If you look at the requirements and "rules" of new urbanism, it's almost like the planner of the community would be a dictator.


And yet, the city plays the part of a dictator already, with zoning and fees, etc.  New urbanism isn't the new totalitarian regime.  Quit acting like we really have any real freedom in the first place.  Do you like Bricktown?  Do you think that just happens serendipitously without any rules?  Should Randy Hogan have been allowed to build just whatever crap he wanted to on land he was virtually given by the city?

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## Plutonic Panda

> It's odd that you say I'm trying to take away options from people when you say the people living in Choctaw (who are probably there on purpose -- I'm pretty sure they weren't forced to move to some FEMA camp called Choctaw) should have their peaceful little hamlet disturbed by a Wal-Mart SuperCenter (because that's the be-all-end-all-acme of 'Murican culture?!?) and those who don't like it should move to the PANHANDLE!?!?!?!  Who's trying to take away options from people?!?!?!  I'm pretty sure that those who want to live 5 seconds away from a Wal-Mart still have that option in lots of other places!
> Stop it with the outrageous statements.  Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard and think some more about who's losing what with the construction of this new Wal-Mart SuperCenter.


Did you even read what I posted? Perhaps I need to copy and paste it.

You keep saying stop with the outrageous statements, but you (a) don't refer to which statements you're talking about and (b) provide any insight as to why they're outrageous. You seem to love using broad terms to attempt and act like you're providing some kind of evidence but in reality, is the exact opposite. Go back through and tell me exactly what is outrageous and I'll respond.

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## Dubya61

> Did you even read what I posted? Perhaps I need to copy and paste it.
> 
> You keep saying stop with the outrageous statements, but you (a) don't refer to which statements you're talking about and (b) provide any insight as to why they're outrageous. You seem to love using broad terms to attempt and act like you're providing some kind of evidence but in reality, is the exact opposite. Go back through and tell me exactly what is outrageous and I'll respond.


the part I quoted.  "take away options from people."

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## Plutonic Panda

> And yet, the city plays the part of a dictator already, with zoning and fees, etc.  New urbanism isn't the new totalitarian regime.  Quit acting like we really have any real freedom in the first place.  Do you like Bricktown?  Do you think that just happens serendipitously without any rules?  Should Randy Hogan have been allowed to build just whatever crap he wanted to on land he was virtually given by the city?


There's a difference between guidelines and denying buildings to be built in a certain district vs. a building style that only accepts one single method of style through-out the entire community and has rules like every single fence surrounding a park being Wrought iron and 3 1/2 feet high or something like that. I mean seriously.... 

New Urbanism

Have a look at that. I'm at work right now or I'd provide you with the link(which I'll try to find if you can't) but there is a huge PDF document defining EXACTLY what you can and can't do when building in a new urbanist community. There are no variances or exceptions... it's their way or the highway.

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## Mel

Where are the pictures from?

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## Dubya61

> There's a difference between guidelines and denying buildings to be built in a certain district vs. a building style that only accepts one single method of style through-out the entire community and has rules like every single fence surrounding a park being Wrought iron and 3 1/2 feet high or something like that. I mean seriously.... 
> 
> New Urbanism
> 
> Have a look at that. I'm at work right now or I'd provide you with the link(which I'll try to find if you can't) but there is a huge PDF document defining EXACTLY what you can and can't do when building in a new urbanist community. There are no variances or exceptions... it's their way or the highway.


So, I'm no new urbanist priest or acolyte, but what is it that you want to happen that you think new urbanism prevents?

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## Plutonic Panda

> the part I quoted.  "take away options from people."


You are taking options away from people.

You're saying live near or "not far away from" which isn't special except to each person. So what is close for me, might be far away for you.

I will say this again. If you want people to live closer to where they want to be, which varies, so you can't define that.... it has to be everything they want/need/desire. Food, play, work, education, etc....... you want those things, what would you say? Just live closer? How could you do that with suburban layout? You can't. It takes too much space. I know that and you know that. If you didn't want it to take too much space, you'd urbanize it - removing the suburban lifestyle. That is removing an option for someone.

It isn't as simple as "just move closer". You either know that(which I think you do) or you aren't putting too much thought into it. You need to actually think about what you're saying here.

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## Dubya61

> You are taking options away from people.
> 
> You're saying live near or "not far away from" which isn't special except to each person. So what is close for me, might be far away for you.
> 
> I will say this again. If you want people to live closer to where they want to be, which varies, so you can't define that.... it has to be everything they want/need/desire. Food, play, work, education, etc....... you want those things, what would you say? Just live closer? How could you do that with suburban layout? You can't. It takes too much space. I know that and you know that. If you didn't want it to take too much space, you'd urbanize it - removing the suburban lifestyle. That is removing an option for someone.
> 
> It isn't as simple as "just move closer". You either know that(which I think you do) or you aren't putting too much thought into it. You need to actually think about what you're saying here.


and yet you're saying "just move to the panhandle."

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## Plutonic Panda

> So, I'm no new urbanist priest or acolyte, but what is it that you want to happen that you think new urbanism prevents?


I don't think it prevents anything besides someone who wants a suburban lifestyle living inside a new urbanism community; to which I'd respond with: move to suburbia.

I actually think new urbanism is great for some cities and I am almost finished with a master plan with some renderings I'm giving to Charles Lamb(mayor of Edmond) that would essentially turn the entire perimeter of downtown Edmond into a large new urbanism community. Everything inside of Kelly-2nd Street-Bryant-Danforth would be pure new urbanism served by streetcars, bike lanes, large bike corridors, a couple of gondolas, and ped. friendly features.

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## Plutonic Panda

> and yet you're saying "just move to the panhandle."


Yes.... If you want a pure country life-style that won't ever be threatened by development, move further out. It doesn't have to the panhandle, but the option is there and I'm not trying to take it away.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Where are the pictures from?


New Jersey.

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## HangryHippo

> If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King….. let them….. That’s their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.
> 
> 
> When you say ”Can you imagine”  …….What you and others are pushing is a *Utopian society* that isn’t even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nation’s population….!


But that's where you're wrong.  No one can easily afford that in reality.  It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it.  It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.

----------


## HangryHippo

> What happens within 30> miles of a major metropolitan area? Hopefully the city grows.
> 
> Ummmmmmm..... you can???? This country is not small, there is huge abundance in every state where there is vast farmland that will likely never be touched by development or subdivisions.
> 
> Take a guess where these photos were taken from...


I hate to rain on your parade, but if something is farmland, it has ALREADY BEEN DEVELOPED.

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## Dubya61

To take a step back, I think I’m getting drawn away from what was my original position before it was parsed and argued.
My original opinion, by the way, is that there’s nothing wrong with Wal-Mart going to Choctaw.  This whole development was a wonderful concept that eventually became just a Wal-Mart SuperCenter.  There’s nothing wrong with a Wal-Mart SuperCenter, but it  could have been so much more (and still included a better planned Wal-Mart SuperCenter), but it’s not.  The post I put up that seemed to attract so much anger was that the residents of Choctaw will not be gaining much in the way of a great store so much closer.  This will cut off about 15 minutes off their drive time to get  groceries, etc., and the associated traffic may even make it so that it will add to their drive time to go anywhere else – and for what?  Wal-Mart groceries?!?  Ask bchris02 what’s so great about Wal-Mart groceries?  Oh, wait, he thinks anything farther than a 10 minute drive for groceries (when you VOLUNTARILY moved to that location in the first place) makes your residence location a food desert!  You want that kind of freedom?  to make incredibly stupid residence location choices?  Great!  THAT’s what American military might defended – that and the right for the Westboro Baptist Church to say and do whatever it is they do in the name of freedom of speech.  Keep in mind that you exercised that freedom in the name of suburban sprawl and it has some other costs:  increased municipal infrastructure, so be prepared to pay more in taxes to the city or get less services from them.  If the Wal-Mart SuperCenter is being done optimally, it’ll make more money for the city than the infrastructure costs.
Here’s some history up thread.



> Well this is not going to be a convention shopping area. They've eliminated the strip mall element from the shopping area. They're rebuilding a vintage town square, like many small towns in Oklahoma and Texas have. I think it's great that Choctaw is being proactive and is really trying to lure commercial development in a sustainable, well-planned way. Something that won't turn into the abandoned strip center you mentioned.
> 
> Bradshaw is a really good developer who is usually involved in interesting things, and he believes in urban development (particularly downtown OKC), so he's probably involved in this. I think Moore and Yukon, both strip mall central, should look at what Choctaw is doing with this.





> I only moved here a few years ago and I love what I know about Choctaw, hope it keeps growing yet maintains its charm.  I have just always been amazed that I grew up in rural southeastern Oklahoma on a farm and we had city water (actually a member of a rural water district, but its still city water) and we moved here (what i call the city) and now have a water well.  I had chickens, cows, caught our own fish for the fish fry every weekend, never swam in a pool but did in lots of horse tanks, and never had a water well till i moved to the city.  I actually have a great job, live in a very nice home in a very upscale neighborhood in Choctaw (my family can’t believe that my shop out back is bricked), but i will always be from the country. I enjoy Choctaw every day and hope to live here for a long time, but would like to see some shops and dining options open up around here in time.





> We are looking into building a home in choctaw, coming from a small town, I am a little worried that this town square IS going to turn Choctaw into a new mwc, which we dont want to live in. We want to stay with the small town atmosphere, low traffic, low crime, and a little bit of a drive away from a highway.  Should we look into other small towns instead?





> I may be a bit biased but living on the outskirts of Harrah I find it to be a good balance between city and town. You get all the town perks like sewage, trash and water, plus a police dept and fire dept along with a nice rural feel since it is a very small town. But the nice thing is it's barely ten minutes from Choctaw, fifteen-twenty minutes to Midwest City and also twenty minutes from Shawnee. 
> 
> Just kind of a heads up.





> Maybe this project was taking so long because they knew this news was about to be confirmed.
> Walmart planning to build Supercenter in Choctaw, developer says | News OK





> Walmart plans to build a 150,000-square-foot Supercenter in the new Choctaw Town Square development, the developer announced this week. The city of Choctaw and Walmart Real Estate Business Trust entered into a purchase agreement for a site in the northwest corner of the development. The new store will bring jobs and tax revenue to the city, although specifics weren't available Friday. Walmart did not respond to requests Friday to confirm plans for the store. The Supercenter is to open in the spring of 2013, according to Choctaw Town Square LLC. It is part of a larger effort to develop the city's downtown district. Mayor Randy Ross said the development includes a new city hall, landscaped green space, a water park, retail and eating establishments.





> Sorry,but this is STUPID!Choctaw doesnt have the population base for a WM and there is allready one just West on 23rd and Douglas.Are they hoping to draw from Jones,Harrah,Nicoma Park?





> I agree this is ridiculous, MWC WM is ten miles if that away from Choctaw and while Choctaw could use a state of the art grocery store, Harrah has a perfectly fine Country Boy Market that is a very large supermarket. 
> 
> I feel for Jeff Williams of Williams grocery and Danny Boyle at Country Boy, they've both been so kind to the communities around us that I pray the business they've built will be maintained.





> I live here in Choctaw, and am really excited about this project. I would LOVE to see a grocery store- maybe a wal-mart market or something other than Williams. Especially down near the Phillips 66 on Choctaw Road and 29th. All of us over here would love to be able to run up to a grocery store of some kind and be back within a few minutes rather tha 45 mins  of driving round trip to williams or target.  BUT back to the Town Square project... 
> 
> As a resident of Choctaw, I would love to see some more places to eat and some shopping. We really need to beef this place up. Eventually a casino... a dog track... something to bring in some business- but this is a good start. I'm so glad to see something finally happening around here. And by the way- a community pool would be great too! 
> 
> Anyway...Now I have gotten off track. I love Choctaw. I want this place to grow. Property values can go up (now that I have a house here..





> WOW!  This project is HORRIBLE!  The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.
> 
> They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!





> Would you rather all the people in Choctaw commute 20-30 miles to get their groceries?





> That has nothing to do with the layout of the development. Honestly by that logic, you would want something that is able to be walked to so you don't even have to get in a vehicle at all, but alas, I'm sure this development will not be friendly to pedestrians.





> Wait what?  That is the only alternative?  That's funny.





> I live in this area and im kinda bitter sweet about it all. Yeah its closer, yeah its more convienent, it will be good for tax dollars for the city BUT.....
> 
> I think most people who live in this area moved here to get away from the city and didnt want to move to one of the other suburbs moore, norman, edmond, yukon that ALL feel like your still living in the city. I've always thought why have a 30 minute plus commute to work to live in the exact type of neighborhood, etc that you would get in the city. I've lived in edmond before and its slightly sad the more and more developed this side of town gets the less rural it feels. I dont need a 7/11 on every corner, i like stop signs instead of lights, and i dont need a strip mall or a walmart every couple of miles. If i want that i could go to any of the other 15 walmart shopping districts in the city. 
> 
> People like convenience and it will drive up house and property values, but sometimes the quality of life or lifestlye you like gets lost in the process.





> This whole plan is sh!t, i've said it.  Between all the Political tripe in the city office, and now the City of Choctaw is trying to catch up with what every other community is doing around it.  Can't hate them for wanting better, but don't send in a planner who just doesn't know what they're doing or talking about.  Pipe dreams Choctaw, pipe dreams.





> I'm not against the idea of Choctaw having a Wal*Mart.  What I am against is POOR PLANNING.





> Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions.  Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St.  Then they screwed that up and approved this project.  I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.





> I'm not against Choctaw having this development.  You say it's better than nothing, but why start out on the wrong foot with poor planning.





> Kerry's point is not nonsense. Urbanity has nothing to do with the population of a place; it's all about how buildings are oriented, with infrastructure being built on the human scale. 
> 
> Urban simply means the presence of people versus rural land; people have to get these negative notions of huge places that are dirty out of their minds when they hear the word urban.
> 
> From Choctaw itself: this is more urban than this just a few blocks away.





> Yes.  If you don't want to live in "Urban" don't move to the "City".  The City of Choctaw, needs to recognize that it is harder to maintain City level of services when properties are used so poorly.  Low-density is just more expensive.  Dramatically so.  
> 
> The founders of Choctaw certainly didn't build it in a rural way. 
> Choctaw County Historical Society Photos





> CHOCTAW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				 A community emerged on the east eighty acres of his land, a postal designation for Choctaw City was issued in early 1890, and town lots were surveyed and laid out. When he relinquished title in 1892, a village of approximately 112 and a thousand inhabitants of the surrounding township supported twenty businesses.
> 			
> 		
> ...

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I hate to rain on your parade, but if something is farmland, it has ALREADY BEEN DEVELOPED.


Ok... you know what I mean. Rural settings is what I getting to. Whether it be farmland or a forest... the option is there...

here is an example of rural Jersey

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> To take a step back, I think I’m getting drawn away from what was my original position before it was parsed and argued.
> My original opinion, by the way, is that there’s nothing wrong with Wal-Mart going to Choctaw.  This whole development was a wonderful concept that eventually became just a Wal-Mart SuperCenter.  There’s nothing wrong with a Wal-Mart SuperCenter, but it  could have been so much more (and still included a better planned Wal-Mart SuperCenter), but it’s not.  The post I put up that seemed to attract so much anger was that the residents of Choctaw will not be gaining much in the way of a great store so much closer.  This will cut off about 15 minutes off their drive time to get  groceries, etc., and the associated traffic may even make it so that it will add to their drive time to go anywhere else – and for what?  Wal-Mart groceries?!?  Ask bchris02 what’s so great about Wal-Mart groceries?  Oh, wait, he thinks anything farther than a 10 minute drive for groceries (when you VOLUNTARILY moved to that location in the first place) makes your residence location a food desert!  You want that kind of freedom?  to make incredibly stupid residence location choices?  Great!  THAT’s what American military might defended – that and the right for the Westboro Baptist Church to say and do whatever it is they do in the name of freedom of speech.  Keep in mind that you exercised that freedom in the name of suburban sprawl and it has some other costs:  increased municipal infrastructure, so be prepared to pay more in taxes to the city or get less services from them.  If the Wal-Mart SuperCenter is being done optimally, it’ll make more money for the city than the infrastructure costs.
> Here’s some history up thread.


Than I can agree with you on that. This development could be a lot better no doubt. I thought you were against Choctaw getting a grocery store. That is at least what it sounded like to me.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> But that's where you're wrong.  No one can easily afford that in reality.  It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it.  It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.


Ok, but couldn't the same be said for mass transit? No one in reality could afford them, that is why those forms of transit to, are subsidized.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Ok, but couldn't the same be said for mass transit? No one in reality could afford them, that is why those forms of transit to, are subsidized.


I'm not sure it could, actually.  You bring up a fair point in that all transit is subsidized, but my point is I think when you take into account the entire system, auto-centric transit probably costs the most overall while also being the most unsustainable.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> But that's where you're wrong.  No one can easily afford that in reality.  It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it.  It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.


If I understand your post, you are saying something that I have heard others thrown around without any real proof that I have seen.  How does the urban subsidize the suburbs?  I live in rural OKC and there was until recently not one fire station within 5 miles.  We now have a new one 2 miles away. This was built after Rio De bella developed which is a huge neighborhood of smaller lots.  When I lived in heritage hills, there were 5-6 stations within 5 miles. I very rarely see an OKC officer out here unless he is running radar on SW 104th.  How do you figure in the ticket revenue?  The road to my house is one single 2 lane road that also services FFA. (The road in my actual neighborhood as well as the street lights were paid for and are maintained by our HOA) In Heritage Hills, there were roads everywhere and generally only used by those residents whereas the road to my house is a section road.  I have no city water nor do I have city sewer where in HH, I had all of those. I don't see how someone can really make the claim that one subsidizes the other without making some pretty big assumptions. There may be studies showing one way or another but they had to make assumptions to base their studies on.  Do you attribute I-44 to me?  It was there before my house was built and it is used to bring milk and food as well as other supplies into the urban area so how do you divide that?   Do you take into account and how would you take it into account that my property taxes are 8x what I was paying in HH?  How do you factor that the homes in Rio De Bella are worth far more than homes in many areas of OKC that are denser?  How do you factor in that due to the price of the homes, the people have more income (Comparing to the same amount of land in any of the neighborhoods along SW 29th Street) which means they spend more which means they pay more in consumption taxes.  How do you balance that with the consumption taxes paid by those living in HH or Crown Heights.



One point also that I think people are missing is that people don't move to the outlying areas to necessarily be away from services.  We move because we won't more space than a driveway between us and the neighbor.  We move because we want our kids in a different environment or better schools.  We move because we are tired of having to worry about drive through crime.  We move because we want our kids to be able to ride their bikes further than 5o ft without being on a major road.  We move because we don't want the ghetto bird flying over our house every other night.  If you develop a gated neighborhood of 5 acres lots in the heart of OKC that were reasonable priced....sign me up to buy one as I miss being close to downtown and the action but at this stage in my life, the quality of life  for my kids is more important. (some may feel that being raised in an urban environment is a better quality of life and I am not knocking that...it is merely opinion)

Thus, I am excited about the I44 corridor being developed,,,hell yes.  I am excited that they put a Crest at SW 104th, yes.  Am I excited that they put a McDonalds there, yep but wished it was Carl Jrs for the breakfasts.  Am I excited that Victoria's is opening yes.    I chose the neighborhood we live in partially based on the fact that it was only 2 miles from interstate and that I predicted the area would commercially develop.

----------


## ylouder

> One point also that I think people are missing is that people don't move to the outlying areas to necessarily be away from services.  We move because we won't more space than a driveway between us and the neighbor.  We move because we want our kids in a different environment or better schools.  We move because we are tired of having to worry about drive through crime.  We move because we want our kids to be able to ride their bikes further than 5o ft without being on a major road.  We move because we don't want the ghetto bird flying over our house every other night.  If you develop a gated neighborhood of 5 acres lots in the heart of OKC that were reasonable priced....sign me up to buy one as I miss being close to downtown and the action but at this stage in my life, the quality of life  for my kids is more important. (some may feel that being raised in an urban environment is a better quality of life and I am not knocking that...it is merely opinion)
> 
> Thus, I am excited about the I44 corridor being developed,,,hell yes.  I am excited that they put a Crest at SW 104th, yes.  Am I excited that they put a McDonalds there, yep but wished it was Carl Jrs for the breakfasts.  Am I excited that Victoria's is opening yes.    I chose the neighborhood we live in partially based on the fact that it was only 2 miles from interstate and that I predicted the area would commercially develop.


What youre saying makes no sense. 

I know exactly the area you live in and I work right by your house. 

You cant have a rural lifestyle away from the crime, congestion, ghetto bird flying over and then turn right back around and say that you want a walmart, crest  and mcdonalds by your house with easy interstate access. All those amenities bring crime, congestion and the exact opposite reason you had for moving there. What you did is took out a 30 year mortgage to move to an area that gave you a 5 year window before the whole area sucks and you are left with a house on a big treeless lot surrounded by apartments, crime, and crappy schools. 

I used to live about a mile away from your neighborhood and look at the crime in the whole westmoore area over the last 20 years. It went from being quite, rural, and safe - to a dense high crime area because people LIKE you who dont get it and are more worried about having a carls jr closer to their front door than maintaining the integrity of the rural setting. 

The whole area was 2 lane roads, farms, small subdivisions, no stop lights and little to no traffic. People move there or build houses because 'they love it so much and it so quite' - then turn around and bitch and petition that they need more shopping, more mcdonalds and a more starbucks then say wait what happened to the area. What happened is that you got exactly what you asked for.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> What youre saying makes no sense. 
> 
> I know exactly the area you live in and I work right by your house. 
> 
> You cant have a rural lifestyle away from the crime, congestion, ghetto bird flying over and then turn right back around and say that you want a walmart, crest  and mcdonalds by your house with easy interstate access. All those amenities bring crime, congestion and the exact opposite reason you had for moving there. What you did is took out a 30 year mortgage to move to an area that gave you a 5 year window before the whole area sucks and you are left with a house on a big treeless lot surrounded by apartments, crime, and crappy schools. 
> 
> I used to live about a mile away from your neighborhood and look at the crime in the whole westmoore area over the last 20 years. It went from being quite, rural, and safe - to a dense high crime area because people LIKE you who dont get it and are more worried about having a carls jr closer to their front door than maintaining the integrity of the rural setting. 
> 
> The whole area was 2 lane roads, farms, small subdivisions, no stop lights and little to no traffic. People move there or build houses because 'they love it so much and it so quite' - then turn around and bitch and petition that they need more shopping, more mcdonalds and a more starbucks then say wait what happened to the area. What happened is that you got exactly what you asked for.


You know, I make a sensible post expressing my opinion without attacking anyone and respecting other opinions....

I did get exactly what I asked for which is development going in around me.  There is crime everywhere but there is a lot less crime here than where I used to live.  Walmarts don't cause crime.  How close is the Walmart to NE 23rd and Kelly?  No crime in that area.  We go to the Walmart in Tricity sometimes.....that whole area is just riddled with crime!!  What you don't get is that it isn't about rural...It is about not having super density where the home lots are measured by ft instead of acre.  It's about not having your neighbor literally a driveway away on both sides.  its about having enough room to have a pool and a workshop and still have some grass in the back yard.  If I wanted truly rural...I would have moved much further out, bought 40 acres so I could control the space immediately around me instead of buying some little lot and thinking my world around me is never going to change.  

Not sure where you lived but I don't see West Moore being a high crime area.  I especially don't see the property values going down.  In fact, they have increased in the last 7 years we have lived in our house.  I bought a house in an area that anyone with common sense would realize was going to develop.  If you have a chip on your shoulder because your property plans didn't turn out the way you wanted...I'm sorry.  Maybe you should have bought further out.

You can have Mc Donalds, Walmarts etc and not have the crime.  My mother in law lives in neighborhood by 104th and May and parents live of N 27th street (Moore's version of 104th) by I 35and they have all the nearby conveniences and their neighborhoods are very safe.  I had far more problems in HH than they have had.  There are happy mediums inbetween the extremes.

----------


## RadicalModerate

^I, too, was sorta country, when country wasn't cool. nor even on the cusp of suburbanization.
Still, I really like the New Urbanism as reflected in the dynamic Local Downtown Renaissance.
Especially, for example, the destruction of that eyesore by a NYC-esque "architect" to put one over on the Prairie Rube Companions.
Back in the day.

And I never shop at any form of Walmart.
(except, occasionally, for the random Rotisserie Chicken or to glean a bag of cheap Ciabatta Rolls)
(and the last time that occurred was about a year ago =)
(a long, long time away from a place called Choctaw
in a galaxy far, far away =)

(sorry, for any zookeepers that might have been offended by this contextural injection into an issue of such seriousness)

One question about the Planned Development, out there on old US 62 (aka NE 23, the):
Are sidewalks and proper crossing signals included in the plan?
(not to mention proper watershed/drainage concerns?)

----------


## jn1780

A lot of people move into rural areas knowing the city is eventually going to catch up with them, but they often get more land and house for their money and when these businesses move in they see their land values go up. 
Not saying I like this kind of development. Personally I like city life, but its an over simplification to say their moving to the country to escape the noise and traffic of the city. Until gas is over 4 or 5 dollars a gallon it is still  economically friendly to anyone who wants a big house and large plot of land they can't afford in the city.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> ^I, too, was sorta country, when country wasn't cool. nor even on the cusp of suburbanization.
> Still, I really like the New Urbanism as reflected in the dynamic Local Downtown Renaissance.
> Especially, for example, the destruction of that eyesore by a NYC-esque "architect" to put one over on the Prairie Rube Companions.
> Back in the day.
> 
> And I never shop at any form of Walmart.
> (except, occasionally, for the random Rotisserie Chicken or to glean a bag of cheap Ciabatta Rolls)
> (and the last time that occurred was about a year ago =)
> (a long, long time away from a place called Choctaw
> ...


I love what's going on downtown.  My wife was commenting the other day about how nice it would be to still live in Gatewood with the Plaza District thriving.  More than likely after the kids are gone...we will end up back downtown somewhere.

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## RadicalModerate

^ Just give it time . . . and by then you may have the opportunity to repurchase your dream house at ten times the price.
(and it will be a bargain =)

Or . . . Move out next to Choctaw Lake.
Where the elite meet to shop at Walmart with proper drainage control. =)
(and a golf course of sorts =)
plus what used to be a train track/railroad museum.

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## bombermwc

Guess what? Some people like urban living, some people like suburban living, some people like rural living. Some even like suburban living in a rural area. SHOCK! I'm amazed to see that people actually enjoy living in different kinds of areas, who knew!

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

Surprise. I check in on this thread, and once again I'm agog that a topic about CHOCTAW is full of urban assholery.

Seriously. It's gone full retard.

1. Walmart feels that it's a worthwhile investment.
2. The people that live in Choctaw WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

The end.

----------


## Just the facts

> Surprise. I check in on this thread, and once again I'm agog that a topic about CHOCTAW is full of urban assholery.
> 
> Seriously. It's gone full retard.
> 
> 1. Walmart feels that it's a worthwhile investment.
> 2. The people that live in Choctaw WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.
> 
> The end.


Do the people in Choctaw want this to happen?

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

What do you care?

----------


## Just the facts

> If I understand your post, you are saying something that I have heard others thrown around without any real proof that I have seen.  How does the urban subsidize the suburbs?


Here is your answer.  I can't make you watch it but if you really want to know the answer to your question you will watch it.  It's not so much that urban subsidizes suburban, it is that suburban is funded through a tax Ponzi scheme and urban is self-funding.

----------


## okclee

^^ JTF do you still live in the suburbs?  I know at one time you did, because you couldn't sell your house or you would lose money.

----------


## Just the facts

Yep - I am still part of the problem.

Let me add - it is not by choice though.  I am married to someone who is just now catching on to New Urbanism (which has been a painful process).

----------


## Just the facts

> What do you care?


Because these same mistakes are being made in cities and towns all across America, and someone is going to have bail them all out when the Ponzi scheme collapses.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Here is your answer.  I can't make you watch it but if you really want to know the answer to your question you will watch it.  It's not so much that urban subsidizes suburban, it is that suburban is funded through a tax Ponzi scheme and urban is self-funding.


I sat through the entire thing and listened.  I go back to my original statement that a lot of assumptions must be made.  In this case, there were a lot of omissions in the numbers.  You can manipulate numbers to support any argument    They look at the rural development and compare the cost of the road in the neighborhood with the property tax return.  Most of the rural developments I am seeing (including my own) the road is built and maintained privately so there is actually a net gain in property taxes versus their statement of a 30 year payback.  They discuss that that cities lose money on residential  to gain on commercial.  For their support, they look at industrial areas that do not provide any sales tax to the city.    Of course, they do not take into account the financial benefit of new jobs as far as more money coming into the community and being spent of consumables with increases revenue.

Like it has been said many times in the threads concerning getting a grocery store downtown, retail follows roof tops.  With the exception of the once a week trash service that comes through my neighborhood, we do not generally cost the city anything (we are private roads, septic, wells and propane) but the approximately $20 million dollars of homes in our neighborhood generates tax revenue.  The new Crest at 104th generates tax revenue as well as any development that goes in at 104th and I44.  The study provided omits any sales tax revenue from the equation and makes big assumptions that the city is providing all of the roads, etc.  Crest and the other new stores (Firestone, Subway, Great Clips, Victorias, Mc Donalds, Cox Cable, would not be there but for the development on the west side of Moore and SW OKC.

I was doing two things at once but I didn't see anything in the video that urban areas are self supporting just that they are a better return on the money sq ft for sq ft.

I can see where arguments can be made for either side but my original point was that there really is no way to compare and come up with a true answer as there are way to many assumptions and factors that could be applied or omitted and either side can find examples to support their argument.  Thanks for posting it though as it was interesting to listen to and does give some interesting points to consider.

----------


## Just the facts

Well, at least you took the time to watch it.  No worries though - it took me several years to come around as well.  :Smile:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I've seen it.... you can hate on Walmart as much as you want.... but it's us who allow it to happen. That is the bottom line. Walmart can't just pick a location and say, we're building there. They have to go through a permit and approval process which is voted by the council who YOU elect.

----------


## ylouder

> I've seen it.... you can hate on Walmart as much as you want.... but it's us who allow it to happen. That is the bottom line. Walmart can't just pick a location and say, we're building there. They have to go through a permit and approval process which is voted by the council who YOU elect.


I'm always glad to get the unsolicited opinion of a 20 something that lives at home with their parents.

thanks.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I'm always glad to get the unsolicited opinion of a 20 something that lives at home with their parents.
> 
> thanks.


So my age and who I live with has to do the opinion of someone? Great! I'm glad I have to see some monkey who probably lives in his mom's basement post random crap he probably copy and pastes from other sites.

See how that works?

Now instead of turning to personal attacks, how about you respond to my post that Dubya couldn't about the urban/suburban issue? Be specific...

BTW, in 5 months, I turn 21, officially an adult. In 7 months, I'm moving to L.A. and getting my own place. So if what you are posting is truly the only argument you have against is to attack me, perhaps you need to research your facts better or at least come up with a spin seeing as you apparently have no facts to argue against me or you wouldn't have attacked me; at least that's what I seem to notice.

So if you want a true debate where we can discuss things and not attack each other, go to this link http://www.okctalk.com/midwest-city-...tml#post803368 and please explain what about it is wrong. Otherwise I'm not going to debate whether or not whether Walmart is a horrible company because they pay waaaaaaaay more taxes than you or I do, contribute more to the economy than you or I do, donate way more money than you or I do, and are more successful than you or I have been at this point.

...... oh, and you're welcome if you appreciate a 20 year old's "unsolicited opinion" whom lives with his dad(parents). It's an honor that you'd take the time to and discredit me because of that. =))

----------


## bchris02

> Yep - I am still part of the problem.
> 
> Let me add - it is not by choice though.  I am married to someone who is just now catching on to New Urbanism (which has been a painful process).


Please don't take any offense with this, but if I were you I would probably move out of Jacksonville entirely.  I could move there right now for free if I wanted to but other than the beach and retail options, Jacksonville makes even a sprawly city like OKC look urban and bustling.  Somewhere like Washington DC, New York City, Boston, San Francisco, or maybe Portland/Seattle would be a good fit for you.  Washington DC in particular being that they have height restrictions so everything is super-dense.

----------


## bchris02

> Surprise. I check in on this thread, and once again I'm agog that a topic about CHOCTAW is full of urban assholery.
> 
> Seriously. It's gone full retard.
> 
> 1. Walmart feels that it's a worthwhile investment.
> 2. The people that live in Choctaw WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.
> 
> The end.


Choctaw may one day be engulfed by true suburbia, but I don't see if ever being a breeding ground for urbanism.  First and foremost, its too conservative.  Second, most people who would choose to live out there want to live a peaceful, quiet "exurban" life.

----------


## MFracas84

I moved out here because I loathe the very idea of home owners associations (HOA).  The very idea that you willingly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and then give up the freedom to do what you want with your own property is unthinkable to me. I like city living but in America today it is hard to buy a new home in the city without an HOA being shoved upon you.  They always say you have a choice but you really don't. Sure you can buy an older home and sacrifice your dream new home. You can move out to the country and have 50% of those on this site accuse you of contributing to urban sprawl.  They want it both ways. They say you can move out to the country to avoid an HOA and then they bash on you for sprawl when you do.  When you live in an urban environment, they force an HOA on you. I would love to buy a place in the middle of the city without an HOA.  I think ou48A has a good point. Many of these people are collectivists at heart and so they are more community rights oriented than they are the individual. It is a clear distinction in thinking.  To each his/her own but I was thrilled when the Love's opened.

----------


## Just the facts

> Please don't take any offense with this, but if I were you I would probably move out of Jacksonville entirely.  I could move there right now for free if I wanted to but other than the beach and retail options, Jacksonville makes even a sprawly city like OKC look urban and bustling.  Somewhere like Washington DC, New York City, Boston, San Francisco, or maybe Portland/Seattle would be a good fit for you.  Washington DC in particular being that they have height restrictions so everything is super-dense.


For the first 8 years I lived in Jacksonville I couldn't have been more indifferent about it.  However, in the last few years (as a result of my conversion to New Urbanism) I have discovered the urban portion of Jacksonville and over the last 3 years I have grown to love this place.  It has some awesome urban neighborhoods and driving for Uber has made me love it even more.  I can't tell you how cool it is to pick a group of people at one urban neighborhood and take them to another neighborhood and literally see hundreds of people at sidewalk cafes and bars at 1AM.  It brings a smile to my face and I am glad I can be part of the action.

I extended the offer to PluPan but it goes for anyone - if you make it down to Jax send me a PM and I'll be happy to give you the $5 tour.

----------


## Just the facts

> I've seen it.... you can hate on Walmart as much as you want.... but it's us who allow it to happen. That is the bottom line. Walmart can't just pick a location and say, we're building there. They have to go through a permit and approval process which is voted by the council who YOU elect.


If no city offered Walmart incentives do you think Walmart could be able to survive on their own?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> If no city offered Walmart incentives do you think Walmart could be able to survive on their own?


I'm sure they could. They are a large company that I think could hold their own and could change a few things. 

Listen, in the end, it is us who allow them to operate. WE have to choose that WE want better options and a better company philosophy. We just have so many who don't care.

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## RadicalModerate

Having been a resident in the vicinity of the outskirts of Choctaw for many years, many years ago, I wonder if the current Boondoggle/Klusterfukke includes a What-a-Burger (as an alternative to Braum's--where Jim Varney shot an effective Ad) or at least an In-An-Out/Smashburger in conjunction with  the already approved, debated, and decided, Walmart for which everyone seems to be so hungering.)  Sure hope the Shyster Group out of Bentonville still gets their way.  And I'm fairly confident they will.  =)

Dang. The more thangs change, the mo' they seems t' stays the same.

Looks t' me like a perfect opportunity for Krispy Kreme to reclaim their rightful place.

(I would run the old "Fireman from A'Far" illustration/joke by you but it might be too far removed. 
From the scene of The Crime. Tp Be Understood and/or comprehended =)

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## Plutonic Panda

> Having been a resident in the vicinity of the outskirts of Choctaw for many years, many years ago, I wonder if the current Boondoggle/Klusterfukke includes a What-a-Burger (as an alternative to Braum's--where Jim Varney shot an effective Ad) or at least an In-An-Out/Smashburger in conjunction with  the already approved, debated, and decided, Walmart for which everyone seems to be so hungering.)  Sure hope the Shyster Group out of Bentonville still gets their way.  And I'm fairly confident they will.  =)
> 
> Dang. The more thangs change, the mo' they seems t' stays the same.
> 
> Looks t' me like a perfect opportunity for Krispy Kreme to reclaim their rightful place.


day 46.... Still trying to find the meaning and origin of a post made by the infamous and rather notorious poster - RADICAL MO-OOOOO-DERATE - food supplies running low.... Water and hydration situation deteriorating; I just want you to know, if I die, remember why we started  :Wink:

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## Plutonic Panda

> I own a home in choctaw.


good for you. If you want country life with no development risks, you shouldn't have picked a place within 50 miles of a major metro area.

Even Guthrie, Jones, and El Reno will likely see some nice growth soon. Guthrie could spur its own growth though if planned and marketed themselves right.

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## Just the facts

> I own a home in choctaw and have said from the very beginning that I don't want the walmart.


Have you watched Store Wars - When Walmart Comes to Town?

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## ylouder

Yes i watched the full video you posted and have seen a lot of documentaries about what happens when walmart comes to town.

In this situation what really gets me is that there is a new walmart right down the street (douglas and highway 62), this one is on the same highway just 5 miles away.

We're going to be paying for this place for decades.

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## bchris02

> If no city offered Walmart incentives do you think Walmart could be able to survive on their own?


Absolutely.  Wal-Mart is a huge operation with such monumental profits they don't need incentives.  Cities however give them incentives because they want the tax revenue Wal-Mart brings, which is a lot being that it becomes the dominant retailers in its community and usually attracts other retailers to open alongside it.

As for this store, I can definitely see the argument against it.  Wal-Mart's dominance and saturation in the OKC area and lack of alternatives is simply mindnumbing.  However, it's even more mindnumbing that certain fast-growing areas of the metro are completely without a grocery store.  Choctaw is exurban, but its growing and with growth comes the emergence of retail and other amenities.  Given the case of their being no national grocers in the OKC metro, who is going to step up and fill that niche in Choctaw other than Wal-Mart?  There are a few other areas I can think of where a Wal-Mart would be beneficial as well simply because they are well-developed yet very far from a grocer.

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## Martin

removed a bunch of posts that were nothing more than pointless bickering.  let's stick to topic, people. -M

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## Just the facts

> Absolutely.  Wal-Mart is a huge operation with such monumental profits they don't need incentives.  Cities however give them incentives because they want the tax revenue Wal-Mart brings, which is a lot being that it becomes the dominant retailers in its community and usually attracts other retailers to open alongside it.


I'm not so sure they could survive because the need new store openings to keep their business model going.  One thing is for sure, without the subsidies they couldn't afford to put a 120,000 sq. ft. store on 32 acres of land.

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## bchris02

> I'm not so sure they could survive because the need new store openings to keep their business model going.  One thing is for sure, without the subsidies they couldn't afford to put a 120,000 sq. ft. store on 32 acres of land.


I disagree.  I do believe Wal-Mart is more vulnerable than some would think, but in today's retail climate it is still doing very well and is by far the dominant retailer, especially in OKC.  If another retailer did to Wal-Mart what Wal-Mart did to K-Mart i.e. squeeze them out of the market, they could possibly be in trouble.  I don't however see Americans en masse giving up one-stop shopping for individual locally owned stores in the near future.

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## Plutonic Panda

Ignoring the gorilla: Williams Foods not worried about new Wal-Mart Supercenter | The Journal Record

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## Just the facts

Williams Food store will be closed in 12 months.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Williams Food store will be closed in 12 months.


who would want to shop there when Walmart Opens? I wouldn't...

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## Just the facts

> who would want to shop there when Walmart Opens? I wouldn't...


I suspect a lot of Williams Foods customers will feel like you.  I dare say that the entire Choctaw Plaza will be vacant in 18 months.  The City of Choctaw just needs to make sure they subtract the lost tax revenue and jobs from these stores when they judge how 'successful' their Walmart venture is.

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## Spartan

How did a thread about Choctaw get to 12 pages with no sign of stopping?

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## Plutonic Panda

> How did a thread about Choctaw get to 12 pages with no sign of stopping?


to find out how it did happen, you must first discovered why it wouldn't happen.

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## Dubya61

> to find out how it did happen, you must first discovered why it wouldn't happen.


?!?
What is the sound of one hand clapping, grasshoppper?

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## BoulderSooner

> Williams Food store will be closed in 12 months.


Not because of Walmart.      But because it is one of the worst grocery stores in oklahoma

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## Plutonic Panda

> ?!?
> What is the sound of one hand clapping, grasshoppper?


That is how I plan to run for president!

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> How did a thread about Choctaw get to 12 pages with no sign of stopping?


Threadcrapping.

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## Bunty

> Williams Food store will be closed in 12 months.


Why?  Consumers IGA in Stillwater is still open 5 years after the new west side super Wal-Mart opened in Stillwater.

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## Just the facts

> Why?  Consumers IGA in Stillwater is still open 5 years after the new west side super Wal-Mart opened in Stillwater.


How many grocery stores have closed in Stillwater in the last five years?

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## so1rfan

> I suspect a lot of Williams Foods customers will feel like you.  I dare say that the entire Choctaw Plaza will be vacant in 18 months.  The City of Choctaw just needs to make sure they subtract the lost tax revenue and jobs from these stores when they judge how 'successful' their Walmart venture is.


It's rather vacant now. What is there probably won't get pinched by Walmart. What is in there? I can think of Dollar General, Shape Fitness, Subway, a hot dog place, a chinese restaurant, a couple of non retail shops and a day care? I don't shop at WIlliams, it's overpriced and dirty. And I don't shop at Walmart, my wife does on occasion but I rarely step foot in the place.

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## Roger S

> It's rather vacant now. What is there probably won't get pinched by Walmart. What is in there? I can think of Dollar General, Shape Fitness, Subway, a hot dog place, a chinese restaurant, a couple of non retail shops and a day care? I don't shop at WIlliams, it's overpriced and dirty. And I don't shop at Walmart, my wife does on occasion but I rarely step foot in the place.


The Subway relocated. Simmon's BBQ is in that location now.

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## jn1780

They have nice Williams in Tuttle and Piedmont that they have just built within the past year. I think its just time for them to build a new store.

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## so1rfan

> The Subway relocated. Simmon's BBQ is in that location now.


That's right, they have the shop on 23rd, was it the old Brahms? I gotta go to the post office today, I'll look.

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## Roger S

> That's right, they have the shop on 23rd, was it the old Brahms? I gotta go to the post office today, I'll look.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Subway is in the old Braum's building now.

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## so1rfan

It is, and the Pizza Hut express is next to it.

Actually Choctaw Plaza is not that empty. Shape Fitness looks to be taking over the $.99 store that was vacant, and will leave it's current spot vacant. There are five restaurants (2 chinese, bbQ, donut, Spicy Dawg) a nail salon, check cashing place, Dollar General, Williams, a daycare, a vape store, something called Locked & Loaded, a Jackson Hewitt, a credit union branch, a bank, a hair salon, a cleaners and a store called the Indoor Garage sale.Maybe two or three vacant units other than that. I don't think that Walmart will impact those businesses much other than Williams and the hair salon.

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## Just the facts

> I don't think that Walmart will impact those businesses much other than Williams and the hair salon.


Walmart isn't the only thing going in Choctaw Town Square.

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## ylouder

Williams is done. We went to the walmart this morning (dont grocery shop there, we do that at crest) and when we drove by williams the first time there were no cars in front and an hour later on the way back there was 1 car. Walmart around 9am was about 1/6 parking lot full and it was over 1/2 when we left with more cars pulling in. 

Meanwhile everyone at the walmart was exceptionally helpful, all the shelves were full, it didnt look like a war zone. Tons of employees working, multiple employees asked if we needed help(thats never happened in my entire life) , they had a new choctaw school bus parked outside, choctaw police car parked outside and the officer out of his car walking around, actually had real checkout lines open. 

Fast forward to once Williams is gone, its going to turn into any other walmart where there will be 1 or 2 lanes open, you wont be able to find any employees, shelves will be half stocked, and any employee you see will avoid all eye contact. If the service we received today was the real walmart I would be a fanboy even with them killing local business, but its not and we all know whats going to happen 6-12 months from now once the local businesses have thrown in the towel.

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## John1744

We went last night and did a scouting/price checking trip. The night crew there is already terrible. They had four lanes open at 8:30pm, and lines were backed about a dozen carts deep for every line. So we went to the self checkout and they were also slammed and the lady kept apologizing that they were short handed.

Shelves did look stocked for the most part, they were definitely out of some key items in the grocery section, but me being a grocery merchandiser I look for that more than anything. 

The buildings leaking already, they had dozens of buckets throughout the store, down aisles, up in corners and things. 

And more annoying than a complaint but the drive into the building is insane, the road curves all around the building with no easy access up into the parking lot besides on either extreme edge of the building.

As far Williams, they are definitely in trouble, we live in Harrah and drive through Choctaw nearly daily and I haven't seen more than 2-3 cars in their parking lot since Walmart opened.

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## Plutonic Panda

Wow.. The building is seriously already leaking?

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## John1744

> Wow.. The building is seriously already leaking?


I'm guessing so. I don't know what else they could have been for, even though it hasn't rained in a couple days they had several buckets up on the shelves on the bread racks, and buckets down the chip aisle and up along the top of the coolers in grocery. They definitely were for catching some type of liquid, they had the paper-towels in the bottom trick any retailer in an old building/new building with issues, knows to keep water from splashing back up and on your floor.

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## Plutonic Panda

That is a complete joke. I'd be ashamed to be the developer of something like that.

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## RadicalModerate

> That is a complete joke. I'd be ashamed to be the developer of something like that.


I think that the use of the word "developer"--within this context--is a good example of Newspeak/Doublethink/Doubletalk.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I think that the use of the word "developer"--within this context--is a good example of Newspeak/Doublethink/Doubletalk.


tru dat! In this case, perhaps we could call them undevelopers.

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## jn1780

> Williams is done. We went to the walmart this morning (dont grocery shop there, we do that at crest) and when we drove by williams the first time there were no cars in front and an hour later on the way back there was 1 car. Walmart around 9am was about 1/6 parking lot full and it was over 1/2 when we left with more cars pulling in. 
> 
> Meanwhile everyone at the walmart was exceptionally helpful, all the shelves were full, it didnt look like a war zone. Tons of employees working, multiple employees asked if we needed help(thats never happened in my entire life) , they had a new choctaw school bus parked outside, choctaw police car parked outside and the officer out of his car walking around, actually had real checkout lines open. 
> 
> *Fast forward to once Williams is gone*, its going to turn into any other walmart where there will be 1 or 2 lanes open, you wont be able to find any employees, shelves will be half stocked, and any employee you see will avoid all eye contact. If the service we received today was the real walmart I would be a fanboy even with them killing local business, but its not and we all know whats going to happen 6-12 months from now once the local businesses have thrown in the towel.


Your being optimistic, it will look look that way in a month. They probably brought in people from Bentonville just for the initial opening. lol

No one wants to work at Walmart because the pay sucks.  They have a hard time keeping good people.

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## Just the facts

Walmart is just following their employment model.  They open with 350 employees and over the next 6 months 100 of them will and quit and not be replaced.  After that the store will be operated with 250 people just like the 1,600 other Walmarts.

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## John1744

Also I saw an article in the Oklahoma Grocers Association newsletter that Williams in Choctaw is a 32,000 sq ft building employing 30 employees. That number is so low! I'm an assistant manager for the Country Boy in Harrah and we have 110 employees for a store that's just a little bit bigger than that. But we try try try to be customer service oriented to the best we can with the teenagers we employ.

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## bombermwc

Maybe it's the AC units that are leaking. The roof wouldn't be leaking if there hasn't been any rain. Gotta love flat top roofs though. 

And it is a newly opened walmart. Like any other business, it's going to be busier for the first month than it will be in 3 months. 

And after all, it is walmart. Did you expect something amazing? I sort of laugh when I hear people say "yeah ive been to the new walmart, it's nice". I'm thinking...walmart and nice don't go together. 

Coutndown until the Choctaw store shows up on The People of WalMart.....

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## ylouder

I saw some very short jean shorts on a manish woman who was about 62' and had a huge gut overhang...at 9 am Sunday morning

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> Also I saw an article in the Oklahoma Grocers Association newsletter that Williams in Choctaw is a 32,000 sq ft building employing 30 employees. That number is so low! I'm an assistant manager for the Country Boy in Harrah and we have 110 employees for a store that's just a little bit bigger than that.* But we try try try to be customer service oriented to the best we can with the teenagers we employ.*


That's why I shop there as often as I can.

When you guys are slammed...Every checkout lane is open. When you're not...You still have plenty open. Plus, I'm only about 3 miles away from there.

I love Country Boy. It reminds me of where I worked in my teens (Buchanan's).

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## Plutonic Panda

City of Choctaw settles suit for $2.15M as new developer moves forward | News OK

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## Choctaw11

Hopefully they bring in some decent places rather than settle for just anything.

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

Last few days...I've heard Taco Bell, Arby's, and Chili's will be going in and around the area.

Zero evidence to support any of that. Just " My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who said Ferris is putting in a Chili's by the WalMarts...I guess it's pretty serious."

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## Roger S

> Last few days...I've heard Taco Bell, Arby's, and Chili's will be going in and around the area.


I can confirm the Taco Bell and Arby's.

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

Coo. 

I doubted the Chili's as soon as it was said. Although...It would probably be the finest dining in town  :Big Grin:

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## Roger S

> Coo. 
> 
> I doubted the Chili's as soon as it was said. Although...It would probably be the finest dining in town


I have heard the Chili's rumor too but haven't seen anything yet to substantiate it...... Black Raven in Choctaw Plaza  is pretty solid dining in my opinion.

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> I have heard the Chili's rumor too but haven't seen anything yet to substantiate it...... Black Raven in Choctaw Plaza  is pretty solid dining in my opinion.


I guess Old Germany is right down the road too. I'd probably get beat up by my neighbors for eating there though...The owner has been...Vocal...About supporting the turnpike.  :Big Grin:

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## Choctaw11

I saw that the poured a slab with plumbing to the west of the taco bell. Any ideas?

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## John1744

Front page of the Choctaw Times shows an Arby's going in here also. Also that is a huge drainage ditch running through the site!

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## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> I saw that the poured a slab with plumbing to the west of the taco bell. Any ideas?


Pretty sure that's an insurance agent's new digs.

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