# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  MAPs for Norman Ideas

## venture

The Gas Tax Increase thread started to hit on this some, so thought we should put them here to let that topic get back on track.

If we follow the model of OKC with a 1% sales tax increase, that would equate to roughly $630k-650k a month based on the numbers I could find. So roughly $7.5 million a year. Definitely not close to the OKC MAPs rate, but still an amount that would add up if it were a 10-year tax. Not accounting for obvious sales tax revenue growth, where would you like to see the money go to? Let's figure an easy $75 million will be available - how would you divide it up?

Some ideas already suggested...
New sidewalksNew bike lanes and paths

Other ideas I would toss in...

I would suggest a Campus-Downtown looping street car system, jointly funded with OU since sales tax wouldn't be able to cover the full cost.Commuter rail and transit station to work joining with CART and a street car system.Main Street renovation project - total repaving, two way street with protected bike lanes and sidewalks, and enhanced higher density developments. Also implement roundabouts to remove traffic lights as much as possible to encourage free flowing downtown.

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## Just the facts

> I would suggest a Campus-Downtown looping street car system, jointly funded with OU since sales tax wouldn't be able to cover the full cost.Commuter rail and transit station to work jointing with CART and a street car system.Main Street renovation project - total repaving, two way street with protected bike lanes and sidewalks, and enhanced higher density developments. Also implement roundabouts to remove traffic lights as much as possible to encourage free flowing downtown.


This about covers it for me, but I would include a multi-modal transit hub in downtown Norman integrating streetcar, bus, commuter rail, and Uber.  :Smile:

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## ou48A

> This about covers it for me, but *I would include a multi-modal transit hub in downtown Norman* integrating streetcar, bus, commuter rail, and Uber.


OU has already built a what will be the start of a multi-modal transit hub for buses and trains. Our tax dollars do not need to duplicate something that would be about one mile away and serve very few people compared to the thousands that make their way to OU daily.  A bus line from OU to the existing Amtrak station would be good though…. It’s probably needed anyway to meet the trains.

But I do like the idea of new sidewalks a lot. Almost everybody uses sidewalks, at least some and they are a major part of helping Norman /OU hold successful events that pump a lot of money in to the Norman economy.

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## ou48A

A MAPS type of Tax would be a great way to help fund Norman's share of a commuter rail system.. 
But true Light rail is so expensive that its not economically responsible for a city like Norman to even really consider at anytime in the foreseeable future.

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## venture

> OU has already built a what will be the start of a multi-modal transit hub for buses and trains. Our tax dollars do not need to duplicate something that would be about one mile away and serve very few people compared to the thousands that make their way to OU daily. A bus line from OU to the existing Amtrak station would be good though…. It’s probably needed anyway to meet the trains.
> 
> But I do like the idea of new sidewalks a lot. Almost everybody uses sidewalks, at least some and they are a major part of helping Norman /OU hold successful events that pump a lot of money in to the Norman economy.


I would imagine it would make more sense to move Amtrak to the new facility by OU and then have a street car running up to downtown. 




> A MAPS type of Tax would be a great way to help fund Norman's share of a commuter rail system….. 
> But true Light rail is so expensive that it’s not economically responsible for a city like Norman to even really consider at anytime in the foreseeable future.


Commuter rail when it gets going is going to likely be a county wide funding project or another initiative to raise funds. Since we are talking Norman, Moore, OKC, Edmond, and Midwest City that would all be getting involved to fund a RTA.  Of course the big issue initially is dealing with BNSF. The trains are probably going to be the least of the expense to get going. Regardless...it'll be here sooner than most think but funding will likely be a different avenue.

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## pw405

I've got a friend of a friend on Norman city council, I bet he's got plenty of ideas.  I agree with what is posted here, but also I think some of the money could be used to "place make" somewhere in Norman.  I dunno, Downtown Norman is OK, but honestly it could have more entertainment options. Norman could certainly use a "shot in the arm" to make some unique urban/mixed use developments happen.  Just not sure of the best mechanism.  

A street car to replace the stupid commuter bus path would be very much needed! (this coming from a guy who spent hours commuting on that damn bus between the oval and Lloyd Noble!)

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## Bunty

Pick your ideas carefully.  I would bet that most people feel taxed high enough as it is from the sales tax.  If raising the city sales tax by a penny makes Norman have one of the highest sales taxes in the state, that won't go over well.

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## Plutonic Panda

Here's my list:

*Mass Transit*

Create a street car system through-out downtown Norman and connect it to the OU CampusExpand the bus system to widen coverageCreate a multi-modul tranist hub downtownSet aside money to throw in for a metro area commuter rail as well eventually light-rail

*Streets*

Pretty much do to Main Street what Venture SuggestedCreate a bike bath that connects Downtown to OU possibly with a street car running along side of itadd more bike lanes throughout the neighborhoods and streets around OU and Downtown

*Recreation*

Expand the trails systemAdd more sidewalks through-out the citycreate a trail loop similar to Hefner around Lake Thunder Birdset-up the infrastructure needed to develop lake Thunder Bird and perhaps create one or two new-urbanist communities around it

This would be nice for Main St. 


This is in Minneapolis. If Norman could do something like this and loop it through downtown, OU, and perhaps lake Thunderbird, that would be awesome!







Create something like this in downtown connecting to OU



or perhaps this



but instead of car lanes on each side, put bike lanes

*New Urbanism on the Lake*
The new developments around the lake could look something like this, or at least that's how I would build them.













Keep in mind, they don't have to be huge or surround the entire lake.

It could all be connected by a great street car system and bike and separate jogging trail system as well.



Sorry for all the pictures, that is how I can describe it best though. Anyhow, that is my two cents. Basically, urbanize downtown Norman with high density developments and connect it with OU via street car and bike lanes on a greenbelt. Create a city wide trail system that has two way bike paths and a separate jogging/walking trail. Connect that trail and loop it around Lake Thunderbird. Layout design and infrastructure for a few new urbanism developments around the lake and integrate those with the trail system. Also, reconstruct Main Street to have protected bike lanes and round-a-bouts through-out downtown making it two ways.

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## kevinpate

Whatever Ideas ultimately prevail, I agree it may be time to consider this for Norman. But since in some ways we are both 3rd largest city wrapped around a sleepy little college town, it ought to be marketed as Norman Area Projects. Yeah, I said it.  If it's of high quality, I can and will be an avid supporter of NAPs.

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## ou48A

> I would imagine it would make more sense to move Amtrak to the new facility by OU and then have a street car running up to downtown. 
> 
> 
> 
> Commuter rail when it gets going is going to likely be a county wide funding project or another initiative to raise funds. Since we are talking Norman, Moore, OKC, Edmond, and Midwest City that would all be getting involved to fund a RTA.  Of course the big issue initially is dealing with BNSF. The trains are probably going to be the least of the expense to get going. Regardless...it'll be here sooner than most think but funding will likely be a different avenue.


The plan as I understand it is to eventually move the Amtrak station to OU and very near the current new OU bus stop. This will also serve as the OU stop for commuter rail. There are no plans for a downtown Norman rail stop that I know of.... but they could make special stops with the commuter rail system when they hold large events in downtown Norman, but other than that bus service is plenty.

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## ou48A

> Basically, urbanize downtown Norman with high density developments and connect it with OU


If you want to urbanize downtown Norman and the OU area the only way it’s going to happen on a large scale is to drive up property prices to values much higher than they currently are.

I have relatives in Highland Park TX where it’s not at all uncommon to tear down a million dollar + home (sometimes more than one) only to rebuild something new and much more elaborate. Redevelop has an occurred in the uptown area of Dallas where they have torn down older properties and built back with much greater density and urbanization. 

What drive this? Its higher property values….. What drives higher property values? Its a great amount of very high end jobs.  Over the decades Norman has done a very poor job of attracting non-government based high end jobs…. This has to change if we want redevelopment in Norman with density on a large scale.

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## Stew

> Whatever Ideas ultimately prevail, I agree it may be time to consider this for Norman. But since in some ways we are both 3rd largest city wrapped around a sleepy little college town, it ought to be marketed as Norman Area Projects. Yeah, I said it.  If it's of high quality, I can and will be an avid supporter of NAPs.


How about NAPs for kids? You in favor of that?

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## Jersey Boss

> If you want to urbanize downtown Norman and the OU area the only way it’s going to happen on a large scale is to drive up property prices to values much higher than they currently are.
> 
> I have relatives in Highland Park TX where it’s not at all uncommon to tear down a million dollar + home (sometimes more than one) only to rebuild something new and much more elaborate. Redevelop has an occurred in the uptown area of Dallas where they have torn down older properties and built back with much greater density and urbanization. 
> 
> What drive this? Its higher property values….. What drives higher property values? Its a great amount of very high end jobs.  Over the decades Norman has done a very poor job of attracting non-government based high end jobs…. This has to change if we want redevelopment in Norman with density on a large scale.


It has been my understanding that the property values of Norman are higher than those of the surrounding communities.

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## Jersey Boss

PluPan,

Overall a nice presentation. However the idea of setting up urbanist communities around the lake could be a non starter. There are currently restrictions on development out that way due to ground water issues and the lake being one of the suppliers for Norman drinking water.

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## Plutonic Panda

> PluPan,
> 
> Overall a nice presentation. However the idea of setting up urbanist communities around the lake could be a non starter. There are currently restrictions on development out that way due to ground water issues and the lake being one of the suppliers for Norman drinking water.


Thanks. I realize the communities around the lake will likely never happen, just what I would do in a perfect world.  :Smile:

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## ou48A

> It has been my understanding that the property values of Norman are higher than those of the surrounding communities.


So….Normans high end growth rates are not sufficient for large scale high end redevelopment with high density.

Most very high end developers look for locations that are not prone to flooding. They don’t want congested broken down streets. They at least want a plan to fix those problems. Norman has been very neglectful of these things in its older areas near campus.
Developing density near older parts of OU will be very slow and scattered until the basic infrastructure problems are addressed by the city.

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## Just the facts

> Whatever Ideas ultimately prevail, I agree it may be time to consider this for Norman. But since in some ways we are both 3rd largest city wrapped around a sleepy little college town, it ought to be marketed as Norman Area Projects. Yeah, I said it.  If it's of high quality, I can and will be an avid supporter of NAPs.


If it goes to a vote and loses will the headline be, "Funding Plan Takes a Dirt Nap"

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## BG918

> Developing density near older parts of OU will be very slow and scattered until the basic infrastructure problems are addressed by the city.


What specific examples are you talking about that need to be addressed in central Norman?

Would this have to be a sales tax increase?  Norman already has an 8.25% rate, slightly lower than OKC at 8.3%.  I know the jail takes .25%, how long will that last?  I'd be leery attempting to raise the tax any more than a half percent.  That would be one of the highest in the state, but still lower than Mustang, Yukon and El Reno, and at 8.75% (assuming we still have to pay the jail tax) it would be .25% higher than Moore.

That being said I agree transportation should be a big priority.  Some ideas:
- Like Venture mentioned, a complete rebuild of Main between I-35 and 12th, including an extension of the streetscape in downtown to Flood and making Main and Gray 2-way streets
- Build the Imhoff Creek Greenbelt trail from Imhoff to Lions Park, including underpasses with bridge reconstructions at Boyd, Brooks and Lindsey
- Extend the Legacy Trail south to Hwy 9 connecting to a trail on the north side of the highway that goes west to Chautauqua to connect to existing trails
- Streetscape and bike lanes on University Blvd between Main and Boyd
- Bike lanes on Jenkins, Elm and Brooks through OU
- New downtown library with a prominent location on Main
- Development fund for new high density housing in Campus Corner and downtown (similar to what Tulsa has had success doing with Vision 2025 housing funds)
- Trail system and upgrades around Lake Thunderbird

I think commuter rail would have to be a metro wide tax since Metro Transit covers Norman, and would have to mainly be OKC along with Moore and Edmond pitching in.

Plutonic, I like your New Urbanism ideas and I see Griffin Hospital as a perfect site for this, if the hospital were to move and consolidate elsewhere in Norman. Same goes for the strip malls on the west end of downtown, the parking lots along University in Campus Corner, and land around Lloyd Noble Center.

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## kevinpate

> How about NAPs for kids? You in favor of that?



My lovely operates a small child care operation.  If I ever oppose NAPs for Kids, she'll make certain the only clients I ever see between 2 and 4 will be under the age of five.   :Smile:

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## ou48A

> What specific examples are you talking about that need to be addressed in central Norman?
> 
> Would this have to be a sales tax increase?  Norman already has an 8.25% rate, slightly lower than OKC at 8.3%.  I know the jail takes .25%, how long will that last?  I'd be leery attempting to raise the tax any more than a half percent.  That would be one of the highest in the state, but still lower than Mustang, Yukon and El Reno, and at 8.75% (assuming we still have to pay the jail tax) it would be .25% higher than Moore.
> 
> That being said I agree transportation should be a big priority.  Some ideas:
> - Like Venture mentioned, a complete rebuild of Main between I-35 and 12th, including an extension of the streetscape in downtown to Flood and making Main and Gray 2-way streets
> - Build the Imhoff Creek Greenbelt trail from Imhoff to Lions Park, including underpasses with bridge reconstructions at Boyd, Brooks and Lindsey
> - Extend the Legacy Trail south to Hwy 9 connecting to a trail on the north side of the highway that goes west to Chautauqua to connect to existing trails
> - Streetscape and bike lanes on University Blvd between Main and Boyd
> ...


I’m speaking in broad general terms with this….. but the area I’m generally talking about (but not limited to) is from Eufaula to the south, from Pickard to the east and from Porter/ Classen to the west.

Much of this area does not drain well. It has a high degree of poorly maintained old broken down streets, curbs and sidewalks. There is a significant number of city street blocks that are not even curbed & guttered. Some streets do not have sidewalks…  There are a few properties in poor condition.

Since there is very little vacant land if we want to increases density on a significant scale the land needs to become more valuable. Some properties would need to be torn down to make way for new development. Part of the redevelopment needs to include a city plan for the reconstruction of city streets, sidewalks and drainage to modern day standards that also helps decongest traffic in the area. 

This general area needs to be designated as a special economic zone for high density residential, retail, and entertainment redevelopment?
A higher property value means higher property taxes… Which could, in part, pay for some of the improvements. Since we are probably looking at a 30+ year project, a bond package might be worth exploring?

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## BG918

Part of the area you speak of is part of the master plan that the City is working on with the OU ICQ, and will facilitate higher density development.  I agree there are some serious infrastructure issues in some of these older areas that could be more easily addressed through a Business Improvement District or Tax Increment Financing district, similar to how the streetscape in Campus Corner were funded.

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## Mr T

In the same area, the Storm Water Master Plan calls for multiple demolitions along the creeks and fixing the drainage, with green space and trails on both sides.  These two things together will completely change central Norman.  The SWMP calls for many millions in bonds and water fees to buy the land and houses and everything else.  It is really huge.  I'm not at all sure about a TIF after the disaster that is UNP.

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## ou48A

> In the same area, the Storm Water Master Plan calls for multiple demolitions along the creeks and fixing the drainage, with green space and trails on both sides.  These two things together will completely change central Norman.  The SWMP calls for many millions in bonds and water fees to buy the land and houses and everything else.  It is really huge.  I'm not at all sure about a TIF after the disaster that is UNP.


That’s good to know, thanks…..
Do you have a link to more detail information?
What you describe sounds like the type of plan that’s really needed for drainage issues.

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## David

Speaking of more information ou48A, do you have any more details about the this bit you posted earlier in the thread?




> OU has already built a what will be the start of a multi-modal transit hub for buses and trains.


I did a bit of googling on the subject and couldn't quite figure out what you might have been referring to.

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## Mr T

Let's see - I will try - Storm Water Master Plan | City of Norman, Oklahoma - click on the one that says final draft.  It is a PDF thing and it takes a while to download.

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## Mr T

I think they are working on ballot language now, for funding.  Folk here are wondering about all the "save our water!" slogans when at the same time the city is selling vast quantities of good water to fracking, for cheap, in the Little River watershed (and others.)  Things should be getting interesting.

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## ou48A

> Let's see - I will try - Storm Water Master Plan | City of Norman, Oklahoma - click on the one that says final draft.  It is a PDF thing and it takes a while to download.


Thanks...... I will read this later

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## ou48A

> Speaking of more information ou48A, do you have any more details about the this bit you posted earlier in the thread?
> 
> 
> 
> I did a bit of googling on the subject and couldn't quite figure out what you might have been referring to.


I dont have a link.. But if you will Google a map up of the OU duck pond area you will see a large parking lot on the NW side of the pond. On the north side of the parking lot near Brooks Street is a new area of concrete with 2 covered waiting area for buses. I was told about this project about 2 years ago by an OU official who also said there would be an OU train stop a short walk away, when and if commuter rail is ever built.

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## Just the facts

> In the same area, the Storm Water Master Plan calls for multiple demolitions along the creeks and fixing the drainage, with green space and trails on both sides.  These two things together will completely change central Norman.  The SWMP calls for many millions in bonds and water fees to buy the land and houses and everything else.  It is really huge.  I'm not at all sure about a TIF after the disaster that is UNP.


I love it.  One of the biggest mistakes made in the US is allowing private ownership of the waterfront and creek/riverbanks.  There should be nothing between the street and water except public space and facilities.  The creeks are supposed to belong to everyone but getting access to it is impossible when you have go through someone's backyard to get to it.  It is great that Norman is going to do what is necessary to fix this but the practice showed be outlawed going forward.  I hope they also make an effort to daylight any streams that have been covered up.

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## Jersey Boss

> I think they are working on ballot language now, for funding.  Folk here are wondering about all the "save our water!" slogans when at the same time the city is selling vast quantities of good water to fracking, for cheap, in the Little River watershed (and others.)  Things should be getting interesting.


Do you have any info on this? If I can't water due to limited supply I want to know more about this. Thank you.

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## Just the facts

> I think they are working on ballot language now, for funding.  Folk here are wondering about all the "save our water!" slogans when at the same time the city is selling vast quantities of good water to fracking, for cheap, in the Little River watershed (and others.)  Things should be getting interesting.


That's easy.  You have to look at the signs closely because they read, "Save our Water...so we can sell it for fracking"

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## Mr T

Norman - Ward 4 on Facebook has a lot of information.  A petition has been suggested to present to council.  If you have any ideas please speak out.

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## Mr T

Let me know if you can't see the page and I'll try to figure out how to do it.  Old lady confused by the internet here!

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## HangryHippo

> Let me know if you can't see the page and I'll try to figure out how to do it.  Old lady confused by the internet here!


Can you link to the page please?

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## Mr T

I don't know - let's see!  https://www.facebook.com/groups/353900744662053/I think so!

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## Mr T

I guess not?  If you have facebook go to that page and ask to join I think?

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## Just the facts

Here you go.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/353900744662053/

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## Mr T

You young whippersnapper, you!  Thanks!  All the best naysayers hang out here.

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## mkjeeves

> save our water


I missed where this got posted anywhere, relevant to Norman or the rest of the state. 

Standridge noted that for growing municipalities, including his hometown of Norman, reuse could be a practical, cost-effective alternative to the construction of new pipelines or reservoirs.

The City of Norman (pop 116,000) is looking at treating wastewater to reuse standards and releasing it into Thunderbird Reservoir, its main source of supply, qualifying it as a direct potable reuse project.
Oklahoma passes potable water-reuse implementation bill

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## Plutonic Panda

Let me say I have been going to Norman frequently and what a badass city! Norman has so much to offer and is such a cool town.

Quite honestly, I used to think Edmond was dominant suburb in OKC, but Norman is light-years ahead of Edmond. Campus Corner is such an awesome place it is arguably one of the best urban areas in Oklahoma. I really think if Norman implemented a street car and switched Main to two way while revitalizing the entire downtown, you'd see amazing new developments.

Way to go Norman and I have become a regular at Hurts Donuts!

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## BG918

> I really think if Norman implemented a street car and switched Main to two way while revitalizing the entire downtown, you'd see amazing new developments.


A streetcar might be a ways off but converting Main/Gray to two-way would not be a major project and would make a big impact.  That and extending the streetscape west past the tracks.  

I think for downtown Norman to really boom it will need a commuter rail station in the middle, near the historic/Amtrak station with easy access from Main.  It would create additional demand for housing and commercial developments along with retail and restaurants from Porter to University (roughly a 10 min walk radius from the station).  From Norman, assuming 3-4 stops in between, to downtown OKC would likely be a 25 min. trip on a commuter rail line.  The distance is 19.5 miles with likely stops in Moore (1), south OKC (2) and Capitol Hill (3) before Santa Fe Depot downtown.  For comparison, the under construction East Line commuter rail from downtown Denver to DIA is 22.8 miles and will be 38 min. from downtown to the airport with 8 stops in between.

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