# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  MAP IV (Oklahoma City 2017) possible extension date:  December 2017

## Laramie

*Brainstorm session:  November 2015 - November 2016*


*Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too. --Voltaire*
Created this thread to capture the _ideas & imaginations_ of citizens, posters and participants of OKCTALK. 

*Subject:*  Ideas for MAPS IV ballot; an extension of the penny tax that will not increase OKC sales taxes.
*Note:  Please feel free to post as many ideas as possible.
This tax extension is not to be confused with the current attempt to generate millions of dollars for schools through a one cent increase in the state's sales tax.*




> actual brainstorming activity
> 
> Brainstorming enables people to suggest ideas at random. Your job as facilitator is to encourage everyone to participate,* to dismiss nothing, and to prevent others from pouring scorn on the wilder suggestions (some of the best ideas are initially the daftest ones - added to which people won't participate if their suggestions are criticised)...*


brainstorm techniques, brain storming - how to run brainstorming sessions, brainstorming activities, ideas and meetings

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## ljbab728

We have a previous thread on this exact same thing.

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...-maps-4-a.html

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## Laramie

> We have a previous thread on this exact same thing.
> 
> http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...-maps-4-a.html



We aware of that thread which got derailed...

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## mugofbeer

I like Laramie's graphics better.   :Smile:

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## Laramie

An Oklahoma City all purpose Velodrome on the riverfront which could be used for other purposes; include an Olympic size pool which could be built on the south parcel of the Oklahoma river near the American Indian Cultural Center & Museum.

Price range approximate:  $150 million.

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## gopokes88

I think expanding street car all the way up Classen to CHK/whole foods would pay enormous dividends to the city. Density along Classen would explode, CHK and OCU would love it, and provides an easy way to get from downtown to PSM.

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## thetophologist

From MAPS 4 Neighborhoods facebook page:

We love Oklahoma City and want to see it flourish and thrive! Let's harness the power of MAPS to lift all citizens. We're hoping that MAPS4 could be focused on others in our city, especially those who have not been as served in our previous MAPS. 

Our goal is to have half of funds in our next MAPS go specifically towards neighborhoods across the city.

Cities have the capability of providing something for everybody, only because, and only when, they are created by everybody. 
― Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

Our hope is we might dream about and then see realized the coming together of in the OKC community who care about our neighborhoods and would like to see the next MAPS focus on connectivity, health and culture.

Here are some ideas to get us started: 

Connectivity
 - Sidewalks in core
 - Connecting neighborhoods to neighborhoods
 - Sponsoring, incentivizing neighborhood initiatives and beautification (Streetlights, updated signs, sidewalks)
 - Bike lanes connecting neighborhood retail to other districts
 - Bus rapid transit 
- Continued streetcar infrastructure

Health
 - Food in schools
 - Kitchen equipment in schools
 - Walking to school- sidewalks
 - Biking to school- bikelanes
 - Incentives for restaurants to go into food deserts
 - Different types of parks for underused, under-utilized current facilities

Culture
 - Arts- public art
 - Interactive art
 - Public spaces for outdoor events
 - Good Ideas initiative 


We're looking for new ideas, great ideas. This is just a start to get us talking about what we want to see. 
Join in the conversation! 

https://www.facebook.com/#!/maps4neighborhoods/?fref=ts

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## OKCRT

> I think expanding street car all the way up Classen to CHK/whole foods would pay enormous dividends to the city. Density along Classen would explode, CHK and OCU would love it, and provides an easy way to get from downtown to PSM.


Yes expand the streetcar and finish the CC properly. Those will be the 2 big ticket items IMO. Build a park and ride streetcar stop out around baptist Hosp somewhere to take advantage of the busiest and most populated part of the city.

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## johnnyhooper

Dome the city.

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## ljbab728

> An Oklahoma City all purpose Velodrome on the riverfront which could be used for other purposes; include an Olympic size pool which could be built on the south parcel of the Oklahoma river near the American Indian Cultural Center & Museum.
> 
> Price range approximate:  $150 million.


Uh, no.  For $150 million, there are multitudes of things OKC needs more than that in a new MAPS.  I'm not saying it is a bad idea, just that it's not practical and would drag down a possible yes vote.

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## Laramie

> Uh, no.  For $150 million, there are multitudes of things OKC needs more than that in a new MAPS.  I'm not saying it is a bad idea, just that it's not practical and would drag down a possible yes vote.


Just gathering ideas at the moment Ijbab so that posters can feel free to post.   This is a brainstorming thread for MAPS IV ideas.

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## JAW

In addition to necessary Streetcar extension to as much of the metro as feasible and the velodrome to replace the Pull A Part yard:

Build the National Memorials and Museums for Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.  Preferably placed at the southernmost part of Central Park near the river itself.  At the river, a boardwalk with two stories of retail/restaurant/cafe/balconies lining the river, with options to sit and interact by the river or on the other side facing the park and memorial.  Just behind this boardwalk, a tall 150-200 ft Eagle statue with wings stretched out horizontally, solemn expression (wings almost like protective).  

Just behind the Eagle, the two interconnected buildings of the same size for the two museums for each conflict.  Much of its content will be underground to help save space (don't want to take up too much above ground area for the new park area, but still want room for good museums).  The museums will have artifacts (how military equipment changes, what an IED looks like, etc), chronological history tours, done similar to the WWI Memorial in Kansas City.  It would also call attention to some of the issues impacting veterans of both wars, provide support to Wounded Warrior foundation and similar efforts to help the veterans.  The idea is to be ethical, honorable, historic, bipartisan, artistic, and sophisticated in the representation of the wars, and inspire proactive assistance, at the individual and national level, to get veterans the help they need for PTSD and depression.  Ideally, it would include a facility to help conduct research and treatment of PTSD.  And although it is done with sincerity to educate and motivate, the practical benefit is a tourist attraction to both educate, motivate, as well as spend money in downtown OKC, to compliment the OKC Bombing Memorial and the hopefully completed AICC.

Each museum will have a large eagle wing structure protruding from it's roof, like two wings rising up at 45 degree angles compared to the horizontal wings of the Eagle statue.  These wings may be larger in scale to the statue, but the idea is from the river it looks like the Eagles' wings are in motion starting to rise.

Just behind the museum buildings will be two skyscrapers, hopefully 600 feet tall, designed like two wings perpendicular to the ground, whose feathers are tapering off in equal but varied lengths.  At this point they look more like angel wings pointing to the sky.  The "wing skyscrapers" will have a gap between them, which is where the Devon Tower can be seen in the distance.  A quick comparison, to those familiar with the Marvel movies, would be the throne of Asgard building in Thor (based off of Icelandic churches), but divided in half and pulled apart by about 75 feet, and the tapering off toward the sides would be a little less dramatic.  

The first two floors of the wing skyscrapers will be retail, with good ground interaction.  The skyscrapers will primarily have residential, but maybe some office as well.  They are intended to represent some of the "Riverfront Towers" that we've seen in various C2S material.  And right behind it, the majority of the Central Park.  So the image then is it goes from Eagle statue (wings 0 degrees), Wings coming out of museums (larger, 45 degrees), to Wing skyscrapers (even larger in scale, 90 degrees)

I imagine all of this (boardwalk, statue, museum, skyscrapers) might take up to .20 of a mile North/South, from the north bank of the OK River, heading into the Central Park and Core.  The museums and skyscrapers are intended to be "thin", East West in width.  The rest of the area around the park and memorial should be done European style, with buildings right up to the streets facing the park with minimal if not nonexistent surface parking.

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## Spartan

I think OKC needs to wait and see how successful streetcar is before thinking about BRT. If streetcar takes off, we should build on that success with as much streetcar as possible.

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## Laramie

_Finish the American Indian Cultural Center & Museum..._Provide landscape for at lease 2 more museum prospects in that south parcel area.

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## Laramie

Riverfront development to finish the American Indian Cultural Center & Museum.  

Provide $50 million:

$25 million to finish the (AICCM) museum
$25 million for 2 access bridges & landscape roads along the north & south parcels to spur private development.
     Build at least 2 bridges to connect the north-south parcels beginning with the area *west of* Eastern Avenue leading to the American Indian Cultural Center & Museum & *west* Western Avenue near the old abandon air park.


The old abandoned railroad line bridge (between Western & Exchange Avenues) could be used as a fishing peer & pedestrian boardwalk similar to what you have in Tulsa (above) *with a more modern look*.

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## Urbanized

That rail line is in almost daily use.

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## zookeeper

JAW: *Your proposal for a museum in OKC for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq is not going to happen.*  A memorial somwhere for all those killed and maimed? Yes, absolutely. But a museum for the most unpopular and unsuccessful wars in American history? I don't think so. Saddam was not a nice guy, but his Ba'ath Party was a stabilizing influence in the Middle East. Which, btw, is why GHW Bush 41 refused to march to Baghdad after the Gulf War in '91. His son made one of the (maybe THE biggest) foreign policy mistakes in history which has de-stabilized the entire region. The result is the chaos you see today. A museum dedicated to these horrible decisions in Oklahoma City is wrongheaded, in my opinion. A memorial someplace? The veterans - dead, maimed, and alive deserve that. But a museum that you, yourself, seem to admit is a back-door exploitation for a tourist attraction is just...too much and has no place in Oklahoma City.

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## JAW

> JAW: *Your proposal for a museum in OKC for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq is not going to happen.*  A memorial somwhere for all those killed and maimed? Yes, absolutely. But a museum for the most unpopular and unsuccessful wars in American history? I don't think so. Saddam was not a nice guy, but his Ba'ath Party was a stabilizing influence in the Middle East. Which, btw, is why GHW Bush 41 refused to march to Baghdad after the Gulf War in '91. His son made one of the (maybe THE biggest) foreign policy mistakes in history which has de-stabilized the entire region. The result is the chaos you see today. A museum dedicated to these horrible decisions in Oklahoma City is wrongheaded, in my opinion. A memorial someplace? The veterans - dead, maimed, and alive deserve that. But a museum that you, yourself, seem to admit is a back-door exploitation for a tourist attraction is just...too much and has no place in Oklahoma City.


Your self congratulatory indignation and tendentious response is duly noted, and what I would expect from your perspective.  Thank you for representing it so perfectly.

The purpose of such a museum is to depict history, not run away from it and pretend it didn't happen because its unpopular or controversial.  The two wars are two of the most important, seminal events for a generation of Americans.  We have museums and memorials dedicated to horrendous tragedies, as reminders, as documents of history, and the best ones portray everything, ask and attempt to provide answers for every possible question about the tragedy and controversy in question.   

The museum at Little Bighorn Battlefields covers a serious of bad and unethical decisions on the American side, but covers it nonetheless, and provides context and information about the strategic, operational, and tactical decisions that were good, bad, and mixed leading to the defeat of Custer (and, subsequently, the defeat of the Sioux and allies in the aftermath).   Just because the decision to take the Sioux lands was immoral (or not, as maybe the result of historic momentum?), and the military decisions were dumb (or not, as they succeeded in other engagements?), doesn't invalidate the existence or need for such a museum.   History is complex, and good historians know that.

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## zookeeper

> Your self congratulatory indignation and tendentious response is duly noted, and what I would expect from your perspective.  Thank you for representing it so perfectly.


Where did *that* come from? Self-congratulatory? Indignant? What you would expect from my perspective? Representing _what_ so perfectly?

I'm serious, by the way. I'm not sure where you got all of the above from a post that just gave my opinion. You don't have to agree with it, don't even have to like my presentation, but I didn't attack you personally for your idea.

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## Laramie

> That rail line is in almost daily use.


Really,  last time I visited that area they removed the tracks.

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## Laramie

:Backtotopic: 

Reminder:  Brainstorming thread.  Please avoid critiques...

brainstorm techniques, brain storming - how to run brainstorming sessions, brainstorming activities, ideas and meetings

We need your ideas:

Here are some previous OKCTALK  MAPS IV thread ideas you may want to revisit:

MAPS IV
MAPS IV & Transportation Bond Package Wishlist
MAPS 4 Brainstorming
MAPS 4 Infrastructure
MAPS 4 Neighborhoods

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## hoya

Okay, let's do some brainstorming.


1)  Hoverboard park.
This is the skatepark Lexus built for its real hoverboard | The Verge

2)  Build a boardwalk along the north edge of the Oklahoma river, between Western and Shields.  Have State Fair level rides along the shore year-round.

3)  Direct rail access from Will Rogers to downtown.

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## Plutonic Panda

The hoverboard park would be cool. I'd also like to see a Velodrome.

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## Bellaboo

I think direct rail access from WRWA would be great.

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## Laramie

> I think direct rail access from WRWA would be great.


This would be a game-changer.

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## Spartan

> Reminder:  Brainstorming thread.  Please avoid critiques...
> 
> brainstorm techniques, brain storming - how to run brainstorming sessions, brainstorming activities, ideas and meetings
> 
> We need your ideas:
> 
> Here are some previous OKCTALK  MAPS IV thread ideas you may want to revisit:
> 
> MAPS IV
> ...


Actually we need more critical thinking all around.

Also, define "direct" rail access to WRWA? Typically airport light rails only work if they connect neighborhoods along the way...

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## Laramie

Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument (Indianapolis)

Would like to see some kind of veterans memorial monument (dedicated to all veterans); something comparable to Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument (Indianapolis) or the Land Run Monument on the Bricktown Canal.


Land Run Monument, Oklahoma City

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## Bellaboo

Direct rail from downtown to WRWA.   Connection would include limited hotels on Meridian, then follow the river to downtown with possible stops at the Wheeler district then connect to the Santa Fe station hub.

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## Just the facts

Here are my three MAPS IV wish list items.

1) Streetcar expansion (Classen and Capitol Hill)
2) Commuter rail extension to WRWA with airport check-in at Santa Fe Station.
3) Waterfront restoration - City wide.  This would require buying and tearing down every house/business that is adjacent to a stream/creek/river and replacing it with passive park space and bike paths.  Would also require day-lighting creeks.

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## Spartan

So would you need to buy a flight in order to take the airport line to your house or job in SW OKC?

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## Laramie

.



> So would you need to buy a flight in order to take the airport line to your house or job in SW OKC?


 Come on Spartan:   Why would you want to restrict or limit that access if it's in your line of destination?  We're brainstorming; we'll get to the cross-examination stage later  :Wink:    stick a pin in it; save your questions for later.

Next idea?  Keep the juices flowing...

.

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## Laramie

Excerpts (ideas) from MAPS 4 Neighborhoods thread:




> Personally, I'd suggest a relatively short MAPS 4 proposal.  Maybe 3 years.  Focus it entirely on the neighborhoods.  Touch on a lot of places where MAPS support wasn't as strong.  Trails, sidewalks, streetlights, things like that.  Bike lanes.  Maybe a few community centers.
> 
> Then you gear up for MAPS 2020.  That one would be the big one that has a metro-wide light rail system.  You have to get Edmond, Norman, Mid/Del all on board with it.  Have a big coordinated push.





> If the goal for Maps 5 is get RTA, better make sure Maps 4 passes.
> 
> Maps 4 will probably shape up like this.
> 
> Lots of sidewalks, bike lanes, bike trails. 
> Bricktown canal expansion towards the west.
> District entrances/exits
> More sidewalks
> Street car expansion all the way up classen ending at the classen triangle.





> I think the MAPS model would be great for expanding the streetcar and building a commuter rail system.  It would also be good for a city-wide trail system connecting neighborhoods and parks, which is something I think is badly needed in OKC.
> 
> In terms of other infrastructure improvements, I think a bond package is probably the best way to go about it and not a MAPS package.  The first reason is it would be difficult to bring the entire city on board for things like sidewalks and beautification in the urban core since most OKC residents don't live in the urban core.  These improvements are beyond necessary though and its important that the city find a way to make it happen.  The second reason is the city limits are so vast that if you tried to invest in all neighborhoods, it would be virtually impossible to do so and have any kind of impact at all.

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## Laramie

Excerpts (ideas) from MAPS IV & Transportation Bond Package Wishlist thread:




> A new I-35 bridge over the river like this would be cool





> Here is a poll I did earlier in the year and the responses:
> 
> http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...e-maps-iv.html





> I've said several times that recreation (bike, running, hiking trails, improved parks, possibly a large aquatic center near the river, etc.) should be the primary focus, along with extending the streetcar to the Health Sciences Center.

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## Just the facts

> So would you need to buy a flight in order to take the airport line to your house or job in SW OKC?


No, it wouldn't require an airline ticket.  Ticketed passengers would just have the option of checking their bags at Santa Fe station.  Heck, the line itself could be extended to Mustang during peak hours.

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## Just the facts

> Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument (Indianapolis)
> 
> Would like to see some kind of veterans memorial monument (dedicated to all veterans); something comparable to Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument (Indianapolis) or the Land Run Monument on the Bricktown Canal.
> 
> 
> Land Run Monument, Oklahoma City


I've been saying for awhile now that the City needs to start going vertical with its memorials and not horizontal.

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## JIMBO

JTF The land run was a very Horizontal Event , stretching for hundreds of square miles.
 I believe a horizontal memorial seems appropriate

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## Just the facts

> JTF The land run was a very Horizontal Event , stretching for hundreds of square miles.
>  I believe a horizontal memorial seems appropriate


The Louisiana Purchase covered 827,000 sq miles.

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## ljbab728

> The Louisiana Purchase covered 827,000 sq miles.


I'm assuming that's not a serious comeback, Kerry.  LOL

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## Spartan

> No, it wouldn't require an airline ticket.  Ticketed passengers would just have the option of checking their bags at Santa Fe station.  Heck, the line itself could be extended to Mustang during peak hours.


I'm confused then..

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## Just the facts

> I'm assuming that's not a serious comeback, Kerry.  LOL


Sure it was.

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## Just the facts

> I'm confused then..


What part is confusing you?  A train would run from Santa Fe station to Mustang with a stop at WRWA.  Anyone working at WRWA or just going to see off departing passenger/greet arriving passengers could use it.

If a ticketed airline passenger had luggage they could check their bags at Santa Fe station where they would be placed in a secured cage and transported on the same train to the airport where they would be x-rayed and put on the plane.

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## bchris02

> I've been saying for awhile now that the City needs to start going vertical with its memorials and not horizontal.


I really think the Land Run monument should be somewhere else, perhaps in Myriad Gardens, the new Central Park, or integrated in with the urban fabric elsewhere downtown where people will naturally walk by/through it.  Maybe find a way to incorporate it outside of the new convention center or within the mixed-use development that ends up at the Cox site.  It shouldn't be out in Hoganville surrounded by surface parking on all sides.

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## Just the facts

While a slightly different subject, the quality of memorials in this country is appaling, to the point of being a national disgrace.  If the best we can do to honor fallen heros, civic leaders, and others who inspire us as a society is to name a freeway interchange, bridge, block of city street, or a park after them then we need to rethink our whole value system.  And hell, it isn't even new stuff. We name stuff that is already laying around because we can't be hasseled with creating something new.

As for the landrun memorial, instead of memorializing the event, why not memorialize the belief that insired the event?  THAT is the important part.

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## catch22

Land run monument should be moved to the Central Park. It should be something you seek out in the park, just as the settlers seeked out their claims.

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## Just the facts

The Landrun monument was a State project, but I would support a monument to the founding of OKC (so long as it is vertcal in nature) as part of MAPS IV.  It could be a column, arch, oblisk, fountain, monolith, statue, or building - but what OKC doesn't need to do is rename some random patch of grass Founders Park or some similar nonsense.  Spend some money and make something architecturally significant and put it in a prominant location.

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## Urbanized

The Land Run monument doesn't need to be moved anywhere, nor will it be. And it is not in "Hoganville"; it is in a public park SOUTH of Lower Bricktown. The area around it will be further developed at some point, and sits at the juncture of Bricktown and the Boathouse district. This area will become much more important very soon as the whitewater facility comes online, and the monument will play a role in this.

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## Spartan

Love all your ideas. Not seeing how they can be incorporated seemlessly into the new county jail though.

Are we thinking horizontal land run monument on a parcel in Far East OKC across from Choctaw, where the new MAPS 4 Jail will be? As for that streetcar, is that like a strange hybrid modern paddy wagon? I like it. Very progressive features for a jail!

Ahem...

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## Spartan

> What part is confusing you?  A train would run from Santa Fe station to Mustang with a stop at WRWA.  Anyone working at WRWA or just going to see off departing passenger/greet arriving passengers could use it.
> 
> If a ticketed airline passenger had luggage they could check their bags at Santa Fe station where they would be placed in a secured cage and transported on the same train to the airport where they would be x-rayed and put on the plane.


It just doesn't seem feasible for public transit. For example, typically streetcars are "rapid boarding" which means they just spot check for tickets bc there isn't time to validate everyone as they board. Checking luggage somehow always takes the person in front of me 15 minutes...that's a line with bad luck for me.

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## mkjeeves

> What part is confusing you?  A train would run from Santa Fe station to Mustang with a stop at WRWA.  Anyone working at WRWA or just going to see off departing passenger/greet arriving passengers could use it.
> 
> If a ticketed airline passenger had luggage they could* check their bags at Santa Fe station where they would be placed in a secured cage and transported on the same train to the airport where they would be x-rayed and put on the plane.*


TSA at the Sante Fe station and riding shotgun on the train to WRWA? I don't think they would be receptive. Relevant questions, did you pack your own luggage and have they been under your control since you packed them?

Maps IV ...Neighborhoods.

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## Just the facts

Spartan and mkjeeves - what I am proposing is done around the world, even here in the US, everyday.  You can check into your flight at any Disney World hotel and check your luggage right there.  They put it in a TSA container that goes on the same bus you ride to Orlando International.  Virgin Atlantic will even pick your luggage up at your house.  As for waiting behind someone checking into a flight; you would only do that if you were also checking into a flight.  There would simply be an airline check-in counter at the station and maybe some self-checkin kiosks for those not checking bags.

So when you are asked, has your luggage been under your control the whole time the answer is Yes, and now it is under the control of an airline representative.  You don't get your luggage back at WRWA, you get it back at your final destination.

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## Spartan

Way easier for a hotel to do. All of the hotels in Orlando developed their own "demand-responsive transit" (DRT) to the airport before the Suntransit LRT thing was even a twinkle in some planners' eye.

They do this in Vegas too, especially if you're arriving with a big conference. Those two towns have a unique tourist set-up that they've had time to hone into what it is now.

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## Just the facts

Yes - so we learn from them and we don't reinvent the wheel.  We can give residents and visitors using mass transit the option of not having to carry their luggage on the train or checking in at the airport with all the people who choose to drive there.  It is especially nice if you are waiting on a train anyhow and have time to kill.

Most likely it wouldn't be available all day but surely there would be sufficient demand from noon to 8pm and one counter could serve all airlines.

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## Spartan

Demand is not there.

What there is demand for: A streetcar that serves local residents and workers.

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## Laramie

Think that's OKC is on the verge.   As Plutonic Panda mentioned in an unrelated thread that most cities that reach that 1.3 million population plateau--they soon begin a building & population boom.   

We have two great universities (OU & UCO) producing talented individuals.  Our community needs to be poised to attract talent from _out-of-state._

We need a nice private development that puts its stamp on Oklahoma City much like _Reunion Tower
 (Dallas),  Tower of the Americas (San Antonio) & the Westin Peachtree (Atlanta)_. 

Passage of MAPS IV will be crucial for the continued development & momentum OKC has enjoyed.

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## CaptDave

> Land run monument should be moved to the Central Park. It should be something you seek out in the park, just as the settlers seeked out their claims.


To make it accurately reflect the land run the existing monument should remain at its current location - BUT - the sooners  /  land thieves portion of the monument could be in Central Park.   :Cool:

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## Laramie

*Oklahoma City Skydance Tower*
 $150 project:  Height 925 feet to roof, Antenna Spire 1,000 feet, Top floor 890

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## mugofbeer

> Demand is not there.
> 
> What there is demand for: A streetcar that serves local residents and workers.


No one thought rail would wor in Denver, Dfw, SLC, Portland OR either due to demand.  All exceeded expectations.   It just needs to serve the places people live, work and shop and be clean, fast and safe.

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## mugofbeer

I like that Skydance Tower!

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## HOT ROD

Don't forget about Oklahoma City University in that list of producing quality talent. ..

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## Laramie

> Don't forget about Oklahoma City University in that list of producing quality talent. ..


Thanks Hot Rod:   Yes, lots of talent with the OCU Meinders School of Business.

Oklahoma City needs some kind of defining landmark.  Agree with Spartan that we need something vertical besides the horizontal landmark monument.

Something like a Skydance Tower (complement the Skydance Bridge) where we spend around $150 million for a landmark (nothing less than 600-plus feet in  height) that will brand out city; put a restaurant at the top along with an observation deck on the south banks of the Oklahoma River that could really spur development near the AICCM.   

It  doesn't necessarily have to be a Seattle style space needle.  Something more in combination  range of Dallas' Reunion Tower & Seattle's Space Needle  (circular like the space needle,  with a round base & crown), but taller, with an awesome light show.

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## Laramie

Dallas Reunion Tower - 561 feet . . . . . . . . . . Seattle Space Needle  - 605 feet with antenna.

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## Just the facts

> Demand is not there.
> 
> What there is demand for: A streetcar that serves local residents and workers.


We are talking 15 years out.  Also, at some point the streetcar has to move beyond MAPS funding and just become a public expense like roads are.

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## Laramie

Looks like the streetcar will initially be a feather in the tourist cap until the city can work out some routes that will truly serve our community as meaningful transit.  

We definitely need to explore the advantages for future streetcar expansion.   Public transit is supported by subsidies.  This could be our step in the direction of commuter rail through the light rail system.   Edmond & Norman offers potential with major universities in those cities.

MAPS IV should include a modest expansion of:

The Bricktown Canal (1/2 to 3/4 mile) extension.
Improvements on the Oklahoma River (both north & south bank development)
Street Car (4 to 6 miles) extension.
Authorized commuter rail study for Edmond & Norman areas.
Oklahoma City has shown a lot of improvements post MAPS I.   We need to continue the momentum...

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## HOT ROD

have to start somewhere, might as well be where there is already critical massing of amenities/buildings AND where tourists can use it and have something nice to take back about OKC. With future visits and/or positive PR, that would help to further expand the system (via additional marginal revenue) where it then can reach more of the city (which itself will hopefully continue to add density as you leave downtown).

This is really NOT a chicken and egg scenario to me, it is more of an evolution where we already have the chicken but it needs to lay the egg and allow more eggs to be laid and matured. ..

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## Patrick

With all of the outcry about how MAPS focuses just on downtown, I have a feeling that a MAPS IV will likely focus on improving neighborhoods.

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## bchris02

> With all of the outcry about how MAPS focuses just on downtown, I have a feeling that a MAPS IV will likely focus on improving neighborhoods.


I am starting to lean in the direction that there should not be a MAPS IV, especially if its going to be throwing money at fringe neighborhoods that have a questionable future regardless of any improvements.  Not that they shouldn't be improved, but it should best be accomplished through a GoBond package.  I would even support a permanent penny tax for infrastructure, projects as they become necessary (such as a new arena down the line), incentives for private developments in key locations such as the Cox site, and historic restorations i.e. First National, replacing MAPS. However, I think the MAPS model is beginning to show signs of outliving its usefulness.  MAPS was needed to jumpstart a completely dead downtown following the previous failed urban renewal attempt but today the private market is doing a very good job at taking the reigns, and is in many ways doing a much better job.

One thing that the MAPS model would still be useful for is public transportation, but I think it will be difficult to get the city on board with a MAPS package dedicated entirely to it, being that most OKC residents live in the suburbs and would never use public transportation.

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