# OKCpedia > Businesses & Employers >  OPUBCO / Oklahoman Business Practices

## Pete

Rather than have these issues pop up in many threads, this is the place to discuss OPUBCO, their business practices and anything else related to their operations, reporting, etc.

Thanks.

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## Richard at Remax

Ill start. I think its highly annoying when you click on an article, and they only give you less than half of it. Then they ask you to "Click here to continue reading" then they add the rest of it on the next page. Its all for "page clicks" for advertisers so I understand that. Just add more advertising on the original page. 

Or the click bait articles that lead to another site. But it shows that news ok got a click for it. They aren't even trying to hide it.

It may be the best idea for them just to go subscribers only. But make it fairly reasonable to access. Like few bucks a month.

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## Pete

I respect they need to create revenue but agree that the ads and autoplay videos (with no way to disable) and all the surveys and other junk are a bit much.  Of course, you can subscribe to the paper then bypass all of that by logging into the Oklahoman.com.


Interestingly, one of the biggest revenue generators for newspapers was always the classified ads, and that has almost completely gone away now and there is no hope of getting that business back.

In my recent move, I used Craigslist a great deal and had tremendous success.

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## Eddie1

I hate it when I'm trying to read an article on my iPad and there are these annoying 'tab headlines' that keep appearing on the right side of the screen stacked on top of each other; I literally cannot finish the sentences on the original article I was trying to read.

How about making it like the LA Times, NY Times, Washington Post, etc...after 10 articles a month you have to have a subscription to continue.  The subscription has to be reasonable though, because the DO, IMO, is written for the 4th grade reading level.

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## SoonerDave

The  number of clickbait articles has risen seemingly exponentially in the last, oh, 90 days. I automatically avoid any link to an article with a number in it now.I'm delighted that AdBlock clips the autoplay videos for me in Chrome. They are infuriating.Most important, however, is the seeming abandonment of neutrality in some of their articles. I read articles - ostensibly not editorials - that include what are obviously opinion driven, eg "they are not happy with my questions." Really? What are your quotes and sources to back up that assessment of their emotional state, other than the fact you are inferring it from their lack of what *you* have predetermined is a "right" response? You want to editorialize, no problem. Just call it that. At least that's what I was taught back in 11th grade journalism  :Smile:

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## David

I've actually tried a few times to subscribe for the online access as a way of supporting their work (whatever you want to say about the more recent unpleasantness, Steve has been a huge net benefit to the city IMO), but it has never worked correctly. I always end up back at a screen that tries to make me log into a non-existent account. I suppose contacting support or whatever their equivalent is might clear up the problem, but if you have a system that can't let a reasonably savvy web user register without help, then you are kind of failing before you even get started.

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## Urbanized

I have an unlimited digital subscription that costs $15/mo and provides access to all digital platforms. I almost exclusively use the iPad app, which has none of the clickbait or any of the other stuff that people gripe about, and actually is a really elegant app. If you only want to use one digital platform (web, phone app), you can do so for $9/mo, which I think qualifies as "reasonable".

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## David

Yeah, that's the level I've tried to subscribe to, seems reasonable enough.

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## Pete

> [*]Most important, however, is the seeming abandonment of neutrality in some of their articles. I read articles - ostensibly not editorials - that include what are obviously opinion driven, eg "they are not happy with my questions." Really? What are your quotes and sources to back up that assessment of their emotional state, other than the fact you are inferring it from their lack of what *you* have predetermined is a "right" response? You want to editorialize, no problem. Just call it that. At least that's what I was taught back in 11th grade journalism


Steve Lackmeyer was always listed as a "Reporter".  Now he is a Reporter and Columnist (this designation changed very recently).  I've never seen a person be both; you either are a reporter of facts or you write a column with opinion.  And in most his writings, he combines fact with opinion without any distinction whatsoever. 

Also, I've never seen someone who claims to be a reporter so frequently reference themselves -- lots of personal pronouns, especially "I".


The Oklahoman needs to designate him as either a reporter OR columnist and have him adhere to the principles of that discipline.  The present situation seriously detracts from the often excellent information offered.


I also have some comments about his blog, chats and Twitter feed, as they are all offered under the "Steve's OKC Central" branding by OPUBCO but often go well beyond opinion and into wildly emotional and personal outbursts.  I'll come back to that later but frankly, I have a very hard time understanding why his employer allows this; but clearly they do.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> Steve Lackmeyer was always listed as a "Reporter".  Now he is a Reporter and Columnist (this designation changed very recently).  I've never seen a person be both; you either are a reporter of facts or you write a column with opinion.  And in most his writings, he combines fact with opinion without any distinction whatsoever. 
> 
> Also, I've never seen someone who claims to be a reporter so frequently reference themselves -- lots of personal pronouns, especially "I".
> 
> 
> The Oklahoman needs to designate him as either a reporter OR columnist and have him adhere to the principles of that discipline.  The present situation seriously detracts from the often excellent information offered.
> 
> 
> I also have some comments about his blog, chats and Twitter feed, as they are all offered under the "Steve's OKC Central" branding by OPUBCO but often go well beyond opinion and into wildly emotional and personal outbursts.  I'll come back to that later but frankly, I have a very hard time understanding why his employer allows this; but clearly they do.


I had to unfollow him on Twitter. The rants are too much. He needs a personal and work Twitter. 

Also I hear him and Brianna talk a lot about journalism school principles. Steve tends to not follow these rules quite often. Be impartial stop trying to be the center of the story.

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## baralheia

The biggest thing that drives me batty about the Jokelahoman is the way they handle ads for AdBlock Plus users. Instead of working to get their ads approved on ABP's "Acceptable Ads" whitelist, they go out of their way to foist ads on ABP users - even if I manually disable ABP for their site. In my experience, they actually display MORE ads to ABP users than non-ABP users. And then they block access to content regardless of whether ABP is on or off - to be able to watch their videos, you have to uninstall ABP.

I get it, they need those ad views and clickthroughs to support their business model, and I'm absolutely willing to see some ads if they aren't intrusive - but circumventing a block like that and generally making the experience worse is only going to make me _less_ likely to support their site or click an ad.

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## Pete

Even if you have a personal Twitter account, when you are a public figure (or at least directly identified with your employer) it is extremely unwise to go off on rants and highly-charged personal battles.  Lots of people get fired for much less on social media.

Also, at least two times I personally saw Brianna Bailey tweet outrageous profanity; once in the course of criticizing OKCTalk.  Our involvement aside, that type of lack of judgment is very troubling especially when you are trying to hold out yourself and your work as professional and reliable.

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## AP

I don't want to harp on him too much but yes the mixing of his personal opinion on politics(even though he has said multiple times he doesn't get involved) and reporting on OKC, really annoy me. I follow him for development updates. I don't care what he thinks about political parties. I have a friend the works for the TW and she has a professional account for reporting news and a personal account that is private. I think that is the best way for reporters to handle their SM.

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## SoonerDave

> Even if you have a personal Twitter account, when you are a public figure (or at least directly identified with your employer) it is extremely unwise to go off on rants and highly-charged personal battles.  Lots of people get fired for much less on social media.
> 
> Also, at least two times that I personally saw Brianna Bailey tweet outrageous profanity; once in the course of criticizing OKCTalk.  Our involvement aside, that type of lack of judgment is very troubling especially when you are trying to hold out yourself and your work as professional and reliable.


Although it didn't involve any personal profanity, I unfollowed Lackmeyer on Twitter for one of those rants a few months ago. Initially, it was nice to get the content he was sending out, but for my personal taste it started taking a non-informative turn, and when this one thing (that I think was intended as a joke) happened, I'd had enough. 

Even in this "enlightened" age where profanity is a great deal more tolerated than it once was, I can't think of *any* _professional_ environment where it is considered appropriate conversation or conduct. Surely that holds true for individuals in a public-facing enterprise.

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## Mr. Cotter

> Also, I've never seen someone who claims to be a reporter so frequently reference themselves -- lots of personal pronouns, especially "I".


This is my only real issue with Steve's articles, which I genuinely enjoy for the most part.  The recent article that just Steve talking about how the Villa Teresa buyers lied to him was the worst I've seen in an escalating pattern.  Five years ago, he was obviously passionate, and not always objective, but the stories seemed less _about_ Steve.

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## Mr. Cotter

> I have an unlimited digital subscription that costs $15/mo and provides access to all digital platforms. I almost exclusively use the iPad app, which has none of the clickbait or any of the other stuff that people gripe about, and actually is a really elegant app. If you only want to use one digital platform (web, phone app), you can do so for $9/mo, which I think qualifies as "reasonable".


I'd gladly pay for quality reporting of local news, but the Oklahoman digital access shouldn't be more than the NY Times.

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## okatty

> I'd gladly pay for quality reporting of local news, but the Oklahoman digital access shouldn't be more than the NY Times.


NY Times is fantastic.  Get digital and just for the old times fun read the hard copy Sunday.    It sometimes takes me most of the week to get thru the Sunday ha (even though it is what is you see online).    Some great stuff.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> NY Times is fantastic.  Get digital and just for the old times fun read the hard copy Sunday.    It sometimes takes me most of the week to get thru the Sunday ha (even though it is what is you see online).    Some great stuff.


I get a free copy at work. Otherwise I would subscribe. We get Washington Post as well. I consider myself covered.

I donate to NPR (KGOU) as I listen most days in the car.

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## soonerguru

1. What is with the arbitrary pay wall? I get that they want subscribers but it is oddly deployed, for example the story about Christina Fallin suing the janitorial company for unpaid wages.

2. I imagine most of their readership is now online. So why do they post so few photos with their stories? It's bizarre. It's not like they are running out of "space." 
More photos would generate more user site engagement.

3. Why do they publish so much right-wing click bait from The Examiner? We all secretly believe the DOK is a biased, conservative news source, but publishing the garbage from the Examiner just undermines whatever attempt the DOK tries to make to appear an objective news organization.

4. Why no depth to the stories? Steve does a good job on his pieces but most of the news and sports articles are six to eight paragraphs, max. It's again like they are short of "space."

The Oklahoman was a good early adopter of the Internet, but it appears to have stalled.

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## soonerguru

Oh, and I pay to get the Sunday New York Times delivered to my house (a service the Oklahoman provides through its delivery operation). I love getting it and it is the only physical newspaper I read anymore.

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## Mr. Cotter

> 3. Why do they publish so much right-wing click bait from The Examiner? We all secretly believe the DOK is a biased, conservative news source, but publishing the garbage from the Examiner just undermines whatever attempt the DOK tries to make to appear an objective news organization.
> .


Common ownership.  

I also hate the links to online articles, even the ones from Tulsa World (who, for some reason, does better reporting from the Capital than the paper of record in the capital city).

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## Pete

Noticed the Oklahoman is now running TV ads basically saying that newspapers -- and theirs in particular -- are far more reliable than getting news through Twitter or social media.

Interesting they chose a 50-something for testimonial; seems like they are trying to hold on to their aging demographic rather than going for younger people.

I'm in my mid-50's and I'd say that a lot of my contemporaries still have the paper delivered but many of them have dropped it or considering doing so.

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## turnpup

We dropped the physical paper and (occasionally) look at the print replica online.  The only thing that's missed is the daily crossword my husband used to sometimes work.

Who needs the newspaper when you have OKC Talk?    :Smile:

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## Jeepnokc

> We dropped the physical paper and (occasionally) look at the print replica online.  The only thing that's missed is the daily crossword my husband used to sometimes work.
> 
> Who needs the newspaper when you have OKC Talk?


If you double click on the crossword, it will come up in a format you can print off

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## bradh

We're in our mid 30's and get the paper daily, our 5 year old might flip out if she didn't get her daily comics (the actual comics fellas, not the content).

That said, while some of the stuff I read is maybe something I already knew, or I can pick up a hint of bias, I remember that a lot of people work for the paper and there are good folks working there who are just doing their best to provide some journalistic work.  I guess I just don't feel the need to crap on them at any chance.

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## kevinpate

We have a Wed. + Fri-Sun package.  Dirt cheap as I recall. 

We've never used any of the free classified ad (ads?) that come with the annual package.  We have taken advantage of a few of the ClubOk coupons that come with the package, though not many since Qudoba fell out of their mix sometime back.

I don't recall he last time I cracked one open, as I tend to read online.  But my lovely likes a paper paper, and the coupons/ads that come with.  Her daddy, who comes to visit with us a few days most months, enjoys a morning paper.  Even if I never read it at all, it's a bargain price to have it here for him that I imagine we'll do this partial week setup for as long as we are blessed to have one of our parents still with us.

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## turnpup

> If you double click on the crossword, it will come up in a format you can print off


Thanks!  That'll make my husband super-happy!

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## Pete

I suspect they make as much or more off of digital subscriptions, as they don't have to print an physically delivery the hard copy.

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## AP

> We're in our mid 30's and get the paper daily, our 5 year old might flip out if she didn't get her daily comics (the actual comics fellas, not the content).
> 
> That said, while some of the stuff I read is maybe something I already knew, or I can pick up a hint of bias, I remember that a lot of people work for the paper and there are good folks working there who are just doing their best to provide some journalistic work.  I guess I just don't feel the need to crap on them at any chance.


Isn't that logic similar to saying something like I eat at El Chico even though I know the food is really bad there because I know the people that work there are nice, good people? Serious question and just trying to understand your POV.

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## Pete

Some interesting questions:

As a community, what do you think we would lose if the Oklahoman went out of business?

Does it contain any information that you can't find anywhere else?

And if the answer to the second question is yes, do you think that void would be filled by other entities?

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## bradh

> Isn't that logic similar to saying something like I eat at El Chico even though I know the food is really bad there because I know the people that work there are nice, good people? Serious question and just trying to understand your POV.


Point made, sorta.  Perhaps I was a little too simplistic.  I guess I don't understand the complete and total thrashing of the paper.  Is some of it junk, yeah, but I still get something out of it when I read it.

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## bradh

> Some interesting questions:
> 
> As a community, what do you think we would lose if the Oklahoman went out of business?
> 
> Does it contain any information that you can't find anywhere else?
> 
> And if the answer to the second question is yes, do you think that void would be filled by other entities?


I don't know the answer to the first question, but what major city in the US doesn't have a daily paper?  

Second question, my answer is "it depends", but sometimes, going to one place instead of 5 is just easier.  That said, I myself don't visit the website, and only read the paper on the weekends since I'm already short on time in the mornings.

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## Pete

> Point made, sorta.  Perhaps I was a little too simplistic.  I guess I don't understand the complete and total thrashing of the paper.  Is some of it junk, yeah, but I still get something out of it when I read it.


Because it was/is a monopoly and sometimes misuses it's power for the gain of it's owners and their interests and the interest of those that align with them.  And it's been that way for a hundred years.

The lack of real competition is never, ever a good thing in any business.

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## bradh

> Because it was/is a monopoly and sometimes misuses it's power for the gain of it's owners and their interests and the interest of those that align with them.  And it's been that way for a hundred years.
> 
> The lack of real competition is never, ever a good thing in any business.


I don't disagree.  I guess I'm just used to it because in 3 of the 4 major cities I've ever lived in, there was only one paper (Houston, Phoenix and OKC).  The Houston Post died when I was in high school and it's been a one man show since, and you're right, it sucks down there.

What I was getting at is 100% of what's in the paper isn't that evilness described.  We're all smart enough to snuff that out, but I understand the concern you have that not everyone does realize the bias.

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## Pete

> I don't disagree.  I guess I'm just used to it because in 3 of the 4 major cities I've ever lived in, there was only one paper (Houston, Phoenix and OKC).  The Houston Post died when I was in high school and it's been a one man show since, and you're right, it sucks down there.


No doubt, not having a daily newspaper would be a negative to OKC's reputation, but I'm talking more theoretically.  As in most newspapers in mid-sized cities going away, which is a legitimate long-term possibility.

There was a great PBS documentary about the long and slow demise of the local newspaper and several journalists argued that they are no longer really needed, that only a few national papers are actually doing original reporting of any value these days, and that everything else is pretty well covered in other mediums.

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## ljbab728

> Some interesting questions:
> 
> As a community, what do you think we would lose if the Oklahoman went out of business?
> 
> Does it contain any information that you can't find anywhere else?
> 
> And if the answer to the second question is yes, do you think that void would be filled by other entities?


No doubt most of the basic news information could be found in other places but who wants to take the time to search multiple places every day to get all of that information.

And there are certain things in the local sports, entertainment, and lifestyles areas that might not be or are not available elsewhere.

An interesting side note is that I just got an offer from them to give me my next year at half price if I prepaid them the full year instead of paying my carrier monthly.

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## zookeeper

I believe in local journalism. There is room for amateur journalists on blogs, forums, Twitter, etc. They add to the overall depth of knowledge and whispers about town, but to maintain that they are - as a whole - an alternative to a daily newspaper is wrong. 

There are so many reasons why. It shouldn't be either/or and self-interest shouldn't be a reason to hope or argue for the end of the local newspaper. I still value the professional journalist. There is room for both new media and newspapers, but be careful for what we wish for. A daily paper is a connection to the past and present that does not go filled in one place online. The decline of an institution, at the altar of ephemeral websites, would be a harmful event. I don't agree with half of the Oklahoman editorials or choices in coverage (and non-coverage), but I support those journalists who lift their voices and sometimes win the day. The public square in Oklahoma City would be poorer for lack of The Oklahoman. I would argue that about any city with any newspaper.

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## checkthat

Recently signed up for print + digital subscription at work. Took a week and a half, 3 online support tickets, and 4 phone calls to finally get a print copy delivered. They did deliver all of the missed copies. Now it comes probably 4/5 days a week. Support was friendly but not at all helpful. The rep advised me to fill out the online form. Told them I am happy to do that but it hasn't worked yet.

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## Urbanized

> I believe in local journalism. There is room for amateur journalists on blogs, forums, Twitter, etc. They add to the overall depth of knowledge and whispers about town, but to maintain that they are - as a whole - an alternative to a daily newspaper is wrong. 
> 
> There are so many reasons why. It shouldn't be either/or and self-interest shouldn't be a reason to hope or argue for the end of the local newspaper. I still value the professional journalist. There is room for both new media and newspapers, but be careful for what we wish for. A daily paper is a connection to the past and present that does not go filled in one place online. The decline of an institution, at the altar of ephemeral websites, would be a harmful event. I don't agree with half of the Oklahoman editorials or choices in coverage (and non-coverage), but I support those journalists who lift their voices and sometimes win the day. The public square in Oklahoma City would be poorer for lack of The Oklahoman. I would argue that about any city with any newspaper.


Hear, hear.

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## AP

Some good news re: The Oklahoman; Ben Felder is joining as an investigative reporter.

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## Just the facts

I alwas love it when someone says a variety of new sources are crucial and then trashes one of the dominant outlets.  If they really felt that way they would subscribe to the paper itself.  You know, to keep as many viewpoints active in the marketplace as possible.

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## Pete

> Some good news re: The Oklahoman; Ben Felder is joining as an investigative reporter.


They have hired several reporters recently:  Ben, Brianna Bailey and two energy reporters...  And that's just off the top of my head.

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## Pete

> I alwas love it when someone says a variety of new sources are crucial and then trashes one of the dominant outlets.  If they really felt that way they would subscribe to the paper itself.  You know, to keep as many viewpoints active in the marketplace as possible.


Who are you addressing?

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## Just the facts

Anyone who says a variety is crucial then trashes the paper.

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## Pete

> Anyone who says a variety is crucial then trashes the paper.


You realize those two things are not mutually exclusive?

You can criticize an entity and still want it to stay around in some form.

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## onthestrip

> Recently signed up for print + digital subscription at work. Took a week and a half, 3 online support tickets, and 4 phone calls to finally get a print copy delivered. They did deliver all of the missed copies. Now it comes probably 4/5 days a week. Support was friendly but not at all helpful. The rep advised me to fill out the online form. Told them I am happy to do that but it hasn't worked yet.


Towards the end of my subscription, The Oklahoman could only deliver the paper 5 or 6 times out of the 7 days. When I called they would tell me they were having trouble with getting deliverers or something. I told them that wasnt my problem and I was paying to have it in my driveway daily. They didnt care much, I didnt renew. I get my news from them online and elsewhere. Hard for me to stomach paying them with unreliable delivery, not to mention their crazy conservative, non-sequitur type of editorials and positions.

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## ljbab728

> Towards the end of my subscription, The Oklahoman could only deliver the paper 5 or 6 times out of the 7 days. When I called they would tell me they were having trouble with getting deliverers or something. I told them that wasnt my problem and I was paying to have it in my driveway daily. They didnt care much, I didnt renew. I get my news from them online and elsewhere. Hard for me to stomach paying them with unreliable delivery, not to mention their crazy conservative, non-sequitur type of editorials and positions.


I only have maybe once or twice a year that my paper isn't at my front door.  When that happens and I call they have someone bring it to me later in the day.

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## soonerguru

Lovely photo montage this morning of the Confederate Flag rally. Seriously. 11 photos. They publish 11 photos of a Confederate Flag rally but rarely publish more than two or three rendering images in their development stories.

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## TheTravellers

Found out something odd today about the print edition - there are different zones, but they don't say what it is on the front page, so you have to look inside.  Thought that when papers did zoning, they put what zone it was on the front page so people would know which one they're getting, but maybe not.  Wife wrote a story and it wasn't in one of the copies she bought, but it was in another one and it turned out that the one it wasn't in was zoned for Edmond, while the regular non-zoned one had it.  It said Edmond on the front page of the section, but not on the front page of the paper, so I guess that's what we'll have to look for, strange....

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## ctchandler

TheTravellers,
I don't ever remember the "community" section being printed on the front page and I have taken the paper since 1965.  When it's delivered, it has the appropriate section but when you buy it, if you are in Warr Acres, you get the West Section.
C. T.

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## TheTravellers

> TheTravellers,
> I don't ever remember the "community" section being printed on the front page and I have taken the paper since 1965.  When it's delivered, it has the appropriate section but when you buy it, if you are in Warr Acres, you get the West Section.
> C. T.


Yeah, that's the way it's *supposed* to work, but my wife got 2 different zoned editions at the same place yesterday, so something's off somewhere in their distribution channel.

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## ctchandler

> Yeah, that's the way it's *supposed* to work, but my wife got 2 different zoned editions at the same place yesterday, so something's off somewhere in their distribution channel.


Oops!  Oh well, as a long time subscriber I probably haven't purchased a paper more than once every ten years or so, so I'm no expert.  When did they start printing the "community" sections, 70's or 80's?
C. T.

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## Paseofreak

Man, Lackmeyer has come unglued lately. He's slamming what is arguably the Metro's best Pho house because they don't make Korean Fusion on Twitter.  He needs a lesson or two on empathy, humility and a few other things.

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## ultimatesooner

> Man, Lackmeyer has come unglued lately. He's slamming what is arguably the Metro's best Pho house because they don't make Korean Fusion on Twitter.  He needs a lesson or two on empathy, humility and a few other things.


he seems a bit off, kinda like his med levels aren't the same everyday

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## Paseofreak

You may be onto something there.

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## Canoe

Pete,

Is there management at the daily Oklahoman that you could contact to get them to cite OKCTalk correctly?  There is a big difference between 'the internet' and a specific website.

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## Canoe

> Pete,
> 
> Is there management at the daily Oklahoman that you could contact to get them to cite OKCTalk correctly?  There is a big difference between 'the internet' and a specific website.


I was mistaken in the above post.  I have been informed that the Oklahoman has not taken any renderings or information from this site without giving credit.  All information acquired was from either the developers or from city representatives.

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## Canoe

Reposting from a different thread.
http://www.thelostogle.com/2016/06/0...eetings-today/

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## stile99

I'm going to put my money on they're being bought.

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## stile99

Nope.  They're just giving up.

http://www.news9.com/story/32179087/...medium=twitter

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## Pete

Ah, they are going to out-source their printing to the Tulsa World.

This had been coming ever since they sold all their property on Britton to American Fidelity.

Will be interesting to see how AF repurposes the print plant and related facilities.

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## TheTravellers

And according to a TLO tweet, also apparently outsourcing copy editing/layout functions to Gatehouse Media, which owns the J-R, which is weird.

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## 5alive

That is interesting. Gatehouse also owns the papers in Ardmore and Shawnee.

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## Zuplar

> Ah, they are going to out-source their printing to the Tulsa World.
> 
> This had been coming ever since they sold all their property on Britton to American Fidelity.
> 
> Will be interesting to see how AF repurposes the print plant and related facilities.


Cafe, conference rooms and more offices is the current plans. AFA has been chomping at the but for them to get out of there.

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## Pete

IIRC, the Oklahoman had a five year lease for that print facility so I bet AF gave them some incentives to leave early.

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## TheTravellers

> And according to a TLO tweet, also apparently outsourcing copy editing/layout functions to Gatehouse Media, which owns the J-R, which is weird.


A bit off topic here, but, in case the Journal Record is still claiming to be a "statewide" business newspaper, two full-time reporters and one full-time photographer in Tulsa have been let go, and the JR no longer has an office in Tulsa.

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## Pete

Interesting article by the Columbia Journalism Review regarding how the Oklahoman basically ran advertisements for its billionaire owner's resort, in the form of newspaper articles.  Then, the Oklahoman wouldn't return calls to answer questions about it.

The Oklahoman also frequently promotes 'stories' from the Washington Examiner, which are really nothing more than editorials by another of Anschutz's holdings.

http://www.cjr.org/united_states_pro...d_anschutz.php

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## zookeeper

> Interesting article by the Columbia Journalism Review regarding how the Oklahoman basically ran advertisements for its billionaire owner's resort, in the form of newspaper articles.  Then, the Oklahoman wouldn't return calls to answer questions about it.
> 
> The Oklahoman also frequently promotes 'stories' from the Washington Examiner, which are really nothing more than editorials by another of Anschutz's holdings.
> 
> http://www.cjr.org/united_states_pro...d_anschutz.php


That's pretty sad. They're apparently not even strong enough to take the questions from the CJR. 

The Examiner stuff gets old fast. Editorials dressed up as "news" stories. 

It's all sad.

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## Pete

Who actually writes the editorials for the Oklahoman?

As in, who sits down decides to write an editorial on a certain subject, then either writes it themselves or oversees the person actually doing the writing?

Just curious.

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## onthestrip

> Who actually writes the editorials for the Oklahoman?
> 
> As in, who sits down decides to write an editorial a certain subject, they either writes it themselves or oversees the person actually doing the writing?
> 
> Just curious.


I've always wondered the same thing. I dont picture E-I-C Kelly Fry sitting down and writing them personally. Is there some national conservative writing group that pushes them out? I seriously wouldnt be surprised if so. I mean, many of the editorials come from uber conservative publications like the Washington Examiner.

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## ctchandler

> I seriously wouldnt be surprised if so. I mean, many of the editorials come from uber conservative publications like the Washington Examiner.


Sometimes they are from the Washington Examiner, but they always credit them in the op-ed when they are.
C. T.

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## ljbab728

I am normally one of the biggest supporters of the Oklahoman here but I'm totally unhappy with the recent decision to have the paper printed in Tulsa.   Besides having to have an earlier deadline which leaves out any late breaking news, the quality of the print is terrible.  Many pages have dim print and the layouts are not good.  This was not a good move if they are anxious to keep loyal readers.

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## SoonerDave

> I am normally one of the biggest supporters of the Oklahoman here but I'm totally unhappy with the recent decision to have the paper printed in Tulsa.   Besides having to have an earlier deadline which leaves out any late breaking news, the quality of the print is terrible.  Many pages have dim print and the layouts are not good.  This was not a good move if they are anxious to keep loyal readers.


While The Oklahoman has endured the transition from print to print-plus-digital content as well or better than any newspaper around, I have a sneaking suspicion this decision and their willingness to endure the fallout suggests things financially at the paper aren't nearly as good as one might think.

THink about it for a moment. You're the publisher of the state's main daily paper. You're contemplating a decision to move your printing service to cut costs. You explore that plan, and one of the things you inevitably discover is the change it will have on deadlines. You *know* what it will do to content. You *know* how it will affect your ability to cover in a timely manner arguably the key drawing cards you have for your paper. 

You make the move anyway.

And that move is every bit as disastrous as you feared, if not worse. You can't cover major sporting events that fall even into the modest late evenings. Your printed product looks like something put together by an 80's HS journalism team. Your process is *so* streamlined and subcontracted you route composition from OKC to a company in Texas, then send the package to your print team in Tulsa. You probably couldn't fix the problem quickly if you even wanted to - at least not in short order.

I have a feeling things are pretty ugly inside the Oklahoman right now. Whatever you feel about the paper - and I stopped taking it years ago when they gutted their sports pages - there are people there working hard to put out a decent product, and *they* know this printing issue is a disaster for what it does to their credibility and ability to report. Barry Tramel was on The Sports Animal about this very issue, as Jim Traber an Al were grilling him about the situation...as if Tramel could do a thing about it. You could hear the frustration and helplessness in his voice as he talked about what their new deadlines are.

It would be a miserably hard thing to be in the print journalism profession right now. The Oklahoman's chickens, as it were, are just coming home to roost, as they are for more and more daily papers. The WSJ is getting ready for a draconian round of cuts. I wouldn't be surprised to hear more cuts and changes at The Oklahoman, and none for the better.

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## TheTravellers

> ... Your process is *so* streamlined and subcontracted you route composition from OKC to a company in Texas, then send the package to your print team in Tulsa. You probably couldn't fix the problem quickly if you even wanted to - at least not in short order.


The "print team" in Tulsa is your main competitor (if I remember right, the Tulsa World is printing the Oklahoman, I don't think it's a separate company, but I could be wrong).  And the "company in Texas" is also your competitor, they do copy editing/layout for the Journal Record.  Odd choices, maybe the only ones available, but still...

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## SoonerDave

> The "print team" in Tulsa is your main competitor (if I remember right, the Tulsa World is printing the Oklahoman, I don't think it's a separate company, but I could be wrong).  And the "company in Texas" is also your competitor, they do copy editing/layout for the Journal Record.  Odd choices, maybe the only ones available, but still...


You're right, it's the TW doing the printing, but my point is that the Oklahoman is doing ALL these things knowing full well the handicap it places on themselves...it just seems to me you wouldn't do these things unless you flat were running out of alternatives.

Reading the Sunday Oklahoman sports section after a home OU game used to be wonderful part of the weekend. .So many great writers and photographers who covered the game in depth, game stories, back features, postgame, the works. Now its all sound bites and annoying, worthless fluff pieces by Jenni Carlson. I finally woke up one day and realized this wasn't the paper I was used to reading, and after a few days of tossing the paper in the trash because I'd lost interest in reading it, I cancelled my subscription. And that was years ago.

Lots of people have done the same, maybe not for the same reasons. But the Oklahoman at one time had a really good sports page. Times have changed. Their coverage of the Thunder is *really* going to suffer, especially for those west-coast games that will have a late start/finish time.

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## jerrywall

Ultimately, the newspaper is just a vehicle to sell ads and classifieds.  News is (and always has been) secondary.  So they don't care about print quality or timeliness, except to the extent it affects ad revenues.

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## SoonerDave

> Ultimately, the newspaper is just a vehicle to sell ads and classifieds.  News is (and always has been) secondary.  So they don't care about print quality or timeliness, except to the extent it affects ad revenues.


Well, yes and no. There has to be at least a minimal value-add proposition such that you say, "well, I'm not selling *just* an ad vehicle," because few if anyone would buy it. News was that vehicle. Back when classifieds were still the primary means for selling things second-hand, it was a bias-neutral income source. The presence or absence of a $5-10 ad for your used car was of little relevance. But as bigger advertisers came in, those who bought quarter, half, or even full pages, that influence started skewing certain kinds of coverage - just like it did/does for TV news. So I get where you're coming from.

The key, however, was that back in the day, advertising revenue was so diverse that it was difficult (not impossible) for one kind of ad source to influence what was covered. Now *all* sources of ad revenue are fallling off, and subscriber revenue was never intended in that business model to be a substantial cover for production costs. With those rates going up, content dropping off as costs are cut, it's a deadly embrace without the print media embracing the web, but social media provides a legitimate, quicker, albeit unvetted source of rapidly disseminated information. 

I would love to have been a sports writer/journalist (path not taken kinda thing), but in the midst of what looks like a dying industry, it probably worked out just as well that I went a different direction. I would imagine the stress of being a print journalist right now purely from a paying the bills and "how long will this job last" standpoint could be pretty miserable.

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## jerrywall

> Well, yes and no. There has to be at least a minimal value-add proposition such that you say, "well, I'm not selling *just* an ad vehicle," because few if anyone would buy it. News was that vehicle. Back when classifieds were still the primary means for selling things second-hand, it was a bias-neutral income source. The presence or absence of a $5-10 ad for your used car was of little relevance. But as bigger advertisers came in, those who bought quarter, half, or even full pages, that influence started skewing certain kinds of coverage - just like it did/does for TV news. So I get where you're coming from.
> 
> The key, however, was that back in the day, advertising revenue was so diverse that it was difficult (not impossible) for one kind of ad source to influence what was covered. Now *all* sources of ad revenue are fallling off, and subscriber revenue was never intended in that business model to be a substantial cover for production costs. With those rates going up, content dropping off as costs are cut, it's a deadly embrace without the print media embracing the web, but social media provides a legitimate, quicker, albeit unvetted source of rapidly disseminated information. 
> 
> I would love to have been a sports writer/journalist (path not taken kinda thing), but in the midst of what looks like a dying industry, it probably worked out just as well that I went a different direction. I would imagine the stress of being a print journalist right now purely from a paying the bills and "how long will this job last" standpoint could be pretty miserable.


I was being sort of glib, but yeah, I agree with you.  I get more up to date and informed information and news from this website than I do on newsok.  I mean, the featured article on newsok.com is "Metta World Peace Sexually Assaulted by Ghost at Skirvin?"

Hard hitting, that.

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## Jim Kyle

Just a FYI in case you didn't know: The subscriber list at any publication is NOT an asset, it's a liability! Seems counterintuitive, but when they accept your money for a subscription, they've entered into a contract that obligates them to deliver you their product -- and that obligation is obviously a liability!

Some 20 years ago the publisher of a magazine for which I was a columnist made that point to me. During my first 40 or so years in the business, though, I (like many of the general public) thought the subscription list was one of the most valuable assets of any publication!

EDIT: The conclusion is that the more of us cancel our subscriptions, the better will be the paper's bottom line!!!

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## LakeEffect

> Just a FYI in case you didn't know: The subscriber list at any publication is NOT an asset, it's a liability! Seems counterintuitive, but when they accept your money for a subscription, they've entered into a contract that obligates them to deliver you their product -- and that obligation is obviously a liability!
> 
> Some 20 years ago the publisher of a magazine for which I was a columnist made that point to me. During my first 40 or so years in the business, though, I (like many of the general public) thought the subscription list was one of the most valuable assets of any publication!
> 
> EDIT: The conclusion is that the more of us cancel our subscriptions, the better will be the paper's bottom line!!!


Isn't there a law of diminishing returns? If too many cancel, no advertisers will want to spend their money, therefore revenue will drop and the paper will need to add subscribers or fold?

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## stick47

I like the change. The paper is better quality, less mangled and the print seems fine. On that point I think some of you aren't giving the company time to get the wrinkles smoothed out of this huge transition. So bottom line, if you're missing the details on the late college games I guess you'll have to subscribe to the Sunday version too.

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## TheTravellers

> You're right, it's the TW doing the printing, but my point is that the Oklahoman is doing ALL these things knowing full well the handicap it places on themselves...it just seems to me you wouldn't do these things unless you flat were running out of alternatives. ...


Oh, absolutely, I agree totally, you don't do those things unless it's a "Hail Mary" type of thing, didn't really make that clear in my post, sorry...

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## ljbab728

> I like the change. The paper is better quality, less mangled and the print seems fine. On that point I think some of you aren't giving the company time to get the wrinkles smoothed out of this huge transition. So bottom line, if you're missing the details on the late college games I guess you'll have to subscribe to the Sunday version too.


I do subscribe to the Sunday paper and it had very limited information about the evening OU football game.   Much more information about it was finally available on Monday.  And the print quality on my paper is not good.  Much of it looks dim or faded instead of dark and sharp.

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## SoonerDave

> I like the change. The paper is better quality, less mangled and the print seems fine. On that point I think some of you aren't giving the company time to get the wrinkles smoothed out of this huge transition. So bottom line, if you're missing the details on the late college games I guess you'll have to subscribe to the Sunday version too.


The printers aren't some new kid in town; they already print the Tulsa World. The paper looks terrible. And the coverage issues aren't changing. Tramel was talking about their new deadlines as if that's a settled issue. The point is there really arent any kinks to resolve. The new level of suckage is apparently permanent, and I think the folks who run the Oklahoman now are grasping at straws as ad revenues continue to disappear for newspapers.

Wish I had a link to a story I read not two days ago about another *huge* round of cuts getting ready to hit the venerable Wall St Journal. They're coming, and no one thinks it'll be anything less than draconian. If the WSJ is hemorrhaging, imgine what a paper like thr Oklahoman is dealing with.

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## stick47

So Walmart haters now have a new challenge. DOK Haters. <LOL> 

Prior to the change it felt like I dug my paper out of a dumpster and now it arrives & comes out of the bag and lays flat on the breakfast table. The pages are thicker and I've never had to squint my eyes b/c of faded print. 
$182 for 365 newspapers. I'll take that deal.

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## turnpup

We went all-digital when we moved to a different house last winter, about the time our subscription expired. I was afraid it wouldn't be the same as having the physical paper, but it's been really easy. Hubby likes the crossword puzzle, and we just print it out.

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## Pete

I'm sure their physical print distribution is dying off pretty quickly and thus the selling of their former plant along with the office structure.

I stop taking the print paper a long time ago, starting in L.A.  I'm one of those people who always looked forward to the morning paper but it became so obviously wasteful...  This huge stack of paper you quickly read through than trash.

And of course, all the news is at least a day old anyway.

I don't miss the hard copy paper one bit and enjoy collecting info from lots of sources.

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## jn1780

Can't really beat the speed and efficiency of digital.  Moving printing operations across the state is literally doing the opposite of digital media.  The Oklahoman staff must be feeling like door to door encyclopedia sales people in the late 90's/early 2000's.

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## Pete

I'm sure almost no one under 45 takes the physical paper any more.

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## HangryHippo

I posted about this in the Uptown Theatre thread, but is anyone else having trouble opening articles from NewsOK.com on an iPhone?  I tap the article I want to read and it looks like it's opening the link and then it says HTTP/1.0.403 Forbidden and I can never get the article to open.

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## SoonerDave

Heck, I'm 52 and don't take it.

But the key for me was tha the *content* started failing before the web onslaught hit. Both together made the paper a complete waste for me.

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## jerrywall

> Can't really beat the speed and efficiency of digital.  Moving printing operations across the state is literally doing the opposite of digital media.  The Oklahoman staff must be feeling like door to door encyclopedia sales people in the late 90's/early 2000's.


I feel sort of guilty when the guy at Crest asks me if I want a free paper and I reply "no thanks, I have the internet".  Then I remember it's not 1985 and don't feel as bad.  Buggy whips.

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## SoonerDave

> I feel sort of guilty when the guy at Crest asks me if I want a free paper and I reply "no thanks, I have the internet".  Then I remember it's not 1985 and don't feel as bad.  Buggy whips.


Great stuff. I remember a very brief stint a few years back when I think I took a promotional deal for maybe a couple of months (3? don't remember). Thought I'd give it a try. Then I realized as I left for work every morning I'd forgotten to read it, decided I'd read it that night, then realized the stuff in it was mostly stale. Then I just skipped reading it, and then caught myself just tossing the thing in the trash to get it out of my way when doing yard work most days. That demonstrated the waste no matter how I sliced it.

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## Pete

There is also a tremendous amount of waste in moving in all the raw materials to manufacture the paper and then deliver it.

It's all just a holdover when there were no other options and it really makes zero sense in the modern world.

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## jerrywall

There was a great book my boss had me read back in the late 90's, I can't remember it's name, about how Craigslist and Ebay were killing newspapers and what type of changes they'd need to make to adjust.  It was really interesting, and had a great breakdown on the evolution of industries and the effect new technologies have on them.

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## SoonerDave

> There was a great book my boss had me read back in the late 90's, I can't remember it's name,* about how Craigslist and Ebay were killing newspapers* and what type of changes they'd need to make to adjust.  It was really interesting, and had a great breakdown on the evolution of industries and the effect new technologies have on them.


I can't even fathom someone placing a classified ad in a newspaper these days. I suppose someone selling something substantive, like perhaps a used car, it still might have value, but with CL and web-based listings out there, that seems the ultimate anachronism. Heck, I remember shopping for OU-Texas tickets via classifieds when I was a teenager.

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## Pete

Yes, I didn't realize that classifieds were such a huge source of income for newspapers and of course that revenue has almost completely vanished.

They also make good money off obituaries and wedding announcements.  The former is something that absolutely should change, as it's outrageous to charge so much money for what should be a public service.

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## ctchandler

> Heck, I'm 52 and don't take it.
> 
> But the key for me was tha the *content* started failing before the web onslaught hit. Both together made the paper a complete waste for me.


I'm 73 and don't take it.  I do subscribe to the online version though.
C. T.

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## ctchandler

> It's all just a holdover when there were no other options and it really makes zero sense in the modern world.


Pete,
Eventually, you will be right, but I live in an independent living facility (old folks home/retirement home) and I am one of about three people out of thirteen apartments that own a computer.  Part of my facility is an assisted living center with probably fifty small apartments and I have not talked to anyone that had a computer, so the print media is still important to them.  But I do understand/know the need for the paper is dwindling and will not be around much longer.
C. T.

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## Pete

^

Thanks for pointing that out and of course you are exactly right.

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## SoonerDave

> Yes, I didn't realize that classifieds were such a huge source of income for newspapers and of course that revenue has almost completely vanished.
> 
> They also make good money off obituaries and wedding announcements.  The former is something that absolutely should change, as it's outrageous to charge so much money for what should be a public service.


I think the escalation in prices for those kinds of announcements are just indicative of the scramble the industry is in amid a failing effort to make the existing model match today's business realities. Unless you're a society type where money isn't so much of an issue, the idea of publishing a wedding announcement with a photo is now an absurd expense and most/many just skip it. Obituaries vary a great deal, however; I think people tend to want to memorialize a life in that way and are more willing to spend the money..nothing empirical there, just a feeling. 

Then there are always the "legal" notices that have to be published IAW court proceedings, and if that's not an anachronism, I don't know what is. I remember when a family member handled a relative's estate and there were seemingly always "publication notices" for this or that related to some aspect of resolving the estate...

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## SoonerDave

> Pete,
> Eventually, you will be right, but I live in an independent living facility (old folks home/retirement home) and I am one of about three people out of thirteen apartments that own a computer.  Part of my facility is an assisted living center with probably fifty small apartments and I have not talked to anyone that had a computer, so the print media is still important to them.  But I do understand/know the need for the paper is dwindling and will not be around much longer.
> C. T.


You know, some smart apple could come up with an app that does an "auto pull" of a "new" print version of a "paper" that could then just be routed to a local printer - all automatically. All someone like you would do, C.T., is visit your printer each morning and it would be sitting there in the output stack, ready to pick up and read at your leisure. ..

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## Pete

> You know, some smart apple could come up with an app that does an "auto pull" of a "new" print version of a "paper" that could then just be routed to a local printer - all automatically. All someone like you would do, C.T., is visit your printer each morning and it would be sitting there in the output stack, ready to pick up and read at your leisure. ..


Even without a computer an electronic reader (like a Kindle) is generally better for the elderly because you can increase the print size, etc.

They are super inexpensive these days (well under $100) and you can check books out from the library for free and the library also offers lots of magazines on-line for free.


I used to work for a company that operated retirement communities; everything from independent living to skilled nursing.  And as volunteer work, I set up computer labs at many of our facilities then taught people how to use them.

The elderly often feel more isolated than most and therefore connecting them through electronics is more important in many ways than the general population.

I remember the face of an older man once I set up his email account that allowed him to stay in touch with his grandkids!  There are also tons of on-line support groups and medical info that is very valuable to the aged.


I know not all people of older generations are willing to embrace technology but my experience was that most embrace it once you demonstrate how it can expand their world.

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## SoonerDave

> Even without a computer an electronic reader (like a Kindle) is generally better for the elderly because you can increase the print size, etc.
> 
> They are super inexpensive these days (well under $100) and you can check books out from the library for free and the library also offers lots of magazines on-line for free.
> 
> 
> I used to work for a company that operated retirement communities; everything from independent living to skilled nursing.  And as volunteer work, I set up computer labs at many of our facilities then taught people how to use them.
> 
> The elderly often feel more isolated than most and therefore connecting them through electronics is more important in many ways than the general population.
> 
> ...


Absolutely true - I was simply thinking that, sometimes, having just a physical piece of paper to read provides a kind of traditional use that nothing electronic can duplicate.

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## Pete

> Absolutely true - I was simply thinking that, sometimes, having just a physical piece of paper to read provides a kind of traditional use that nothing electronic can duplicate.


Right, and at least for the foreseeable future there will always be some people who need/want that hard copy.

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## ctchandler

> You know, some smart apple could come up with an app that does an "auto pull" of a "new" print version of a "paper" that could then just be routed to a local printer - all automatically. All someone like you would do, C.T., is visit your printer each morning and it would be sitting there in the output stack, ready to pick up and read at your leisure. ..


SoonerDave,
What's an "App"?  Ok, I'm a retired IT man with over forty years in information technology, so I know what an app is, but believe it or not, I don't have a "Smart Phone" so without my computer, I'm out of luck.  I have a flip phone that doesn't have texting capabilities.  Lots of folks where I live don't even have a cell phone.  By the way, I'm not one that receives a hard copy, I have been reading the DOK online since they brought it online in the early 2000's.  Really nice, when I was traveling to Europe, my friend would shower and do her thing while I read the paper.
C. T.

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## ctchandler

> Even without a computer an electronic reader (like a Kindle) is generally better for the elderly because you can increase the print size, etc.
> 
> They are super inexpensive these days (well under $100) and you can check books out from the library for free and the library also offers lots of magazines on-line for free.
> 
> 
> I used to work for a company that operated retirement communities; everything from independent living to skilled nursing.  And as volunteer work, I set up computer labs at many of our facilities then taught people how to use them.
> 
> The elderly often feel more isolated than most and therefore connecting them through electronics is more important in many ways than the general population.
> 
> ...


Pete,
Good point about the Kindle.  You are absolutely right about older generations, but I'm 73 and as I mentioned to SoonerDave, over forty years in IT.  I have a 27" IMac and I have macular degeneration (vision problems) so I have had to increase my font size to read thinks like OKCTalk.  I will definitely look into the Kindle.
C. T.

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## ctchandler

Pete and SoonerDave,
Have either of you seen the "Print Replica" option at the DOK web site?  The paper is scanned and loaded daily and you can see about ten versions of the paper, today's and the previous nine days.  It's pretty good for people like me that want to read the paper like we/I have since the 50's.
C. T.

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## baralheia

> You know, some smart apple could come up with an app that does an "auto pull" of a "new" print version of a "paper" that could then just be routed to a local printer - all automatically. All someone like you would do, C.T., is visit your printer each morning and it would be sitting there in the output stack, ready to pick up and read at your leisure. ..


10-15 years ago, HP used to have an application that was bundled with their printers to do exactly that - you select the internet news sources you want, select the days and time you want it to print, and then on that schedule it would print out the day's news stories for you. Neat idea but it didn't work very well back then - partially because the computer had to stay on for it to work.

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## Bellaboo

I got a letter in the mail yesterday apologizing for the lack of quality service during their transition to printing in Tulsa. 

What bothers me most is that they are not putting the NBA box scores on a lot of games until the following day. They just tell you to check the online version of the paper.

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## SoonerDave

> I got a letter in the mail yesterday apologizing for the lack of quality service during their transition to printing in Tulsa. 
> 
> What bothers me most is that they are not putting the NBA box scores on a lot of games until the following day. They just tell you to check the online version of the paper.


Sounds to me like the DOK got more flak than they expected. Tramel was on the radio last night saying they were "working on some things." It would be indicative of an incomprehensible lapse in foresight to not have knowm how these new deadlines would affect the paper.

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## Pete

The change seems to be exaggerating their biggest issue:  Taking print news that is already old and making it older by having earlier deadlines due to the print distance.

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## ctchandler

E. K. Gaylord must be turning over in his grave!  He was such a people person and would not have been happy with what is going on.  Back in his day, you could call him at home (yes, he was listed in the phone book) and express your displeasure.  I don't think he personally answered the phone, but he had staff at his home that would pass the information on.
C. T.

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## Richard at Remax

To add on to everyone else I think it is really embarrassing and might be the end for the newspaper in print form. 

At lunch today I grabbed the sports section. We had a historic night in the world series last night with the Cubs, nowhere to be found. Thunder won a big game. Nowhere to be found. 

Except a small headline on the top to tell us to go online. What a joke.

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## Pete

> To add on to everyone else I think it is really embarrassing and might be the end for the newspaper in print form. 
> 
> At lunch today I grabbed the sports section. We had a historic night in the world series last night with the Cubs, nowhere to be found. Thunder won a big game. Nowhere to be found. 
> 
> Except a small headline on the top to tell us to go online. What a joke.


I wonder if they'll cover those things in tomorrow's paper or just skip those stories completely in print?

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## Bellaboo

> To add on to everyone else I think it is really embarrassing and might be the end for the newspaper in print form. 
> 
> At lunch today I grabbed the sports section. We had a historic night in the world series last night with the Cubs, nowhere to be found. Thunder won a big game. Nowhere to be found. 
> 
> Except a small headline on the top to tell us to go online. What a joke.


In previous years when the Thunder had a Los Angeles game which starts 30 minutes later than the rest of the West coast (Sac, Portland & GSW), they still had a blurb and box score of the game. 

Not any more. This may determine my thoughts on renewing at the first of the year. Just pisses me off how far they've dropped over night.

The letter that I received stressed getting the paper delivered on time. I am more concerned about current up to date content.

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## Jim Kyle

> it's outrageous to charge so much money for what should be a public service.


It actually WAS a public service back in the mid to late 50s. When I moved over to the Oklahoman as its rewrite man, in 1956, my first duty after coming to work at 4:30 p.m. was to phone all the funeral homes and collect phone numbers for next-of-kin, then call and get the information to write a two-to-three paragraph obit. Once those were done I went to the Weather Wire (a TTY machine on the Weather Bureau's loop) and got the data to write the mandatory weather story. Once those were done, I waited for my phone to ring with an incoming call from one of the reporters out in the field, and took their stories by dictation over the phone.

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## Jim Kyle

> The change seems to be exaggerating their biggest issue:  Taking print news that is already old and making it older by having earlier deadlines due to the print distance.


The insanity of that logic is NOT new. Toward the end of my stint with OPubCo, the Powers That Be decided to publish a Sunday edition for sale in distant markets such as L.A. and NYC, that went to press in the wee hours of Saturday morning. I was assigned to put the whole thing together, working overnight (11 p.m. Friday to 8 a.m. Saturday). The hardest part was writing a weather story about Saturday's happenings, before they happened. My suggestion of "Cloudy except where sunny, dry except where it rained" was not received with enthusiasm.

The project lasted only a few weeks, as I recall.

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## SoonerDave

Interestingly enough, it appears that the OKlahoman has just "reinvented" their website and seems to have gone 100% paywall now. AT least every link I clicked took me to a login/$10/month page, even the sports articles.

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## JohnH_in_OKC

I was wondering if a paywall would make more sense to building revenue for the Oklahoman. Since paid classified ads have become archaic and grocery ads mainstays like Buy for Less have abandoned the Oklahoman, the Oklahoman had to do something to financially maintain its front section, business and sports departments. The obits and the remaining advertisers just don't bring enough income to support all the free newspaper lookie-lookers from its website. 

I myself subscribed to the Oklahoman during college, during my military service overseas and after I moved back to OKC in the early 80's.  I've been disappointed with the lack of late evening news and sports during the last month & received the Oklahoman's management letter of apology in the mail last week. I can't complain, though, since my subscription costs have been reduced substantially since I retired & live off social security. 

To me, the best answer is for the Oklahoman to offer a print version to sell at convenience stores, vending machines and deliver to those who still want a printed paper. This can still be printed in Tulsa & sent to Oklahoma City and elsewhere with an early deadline. The current price of the Oklahoman with print and web access is only $12 per month.  The digital only version is just $9.99 per month. 

I think that free web access to the Oklahoman should be limited to 10 stories per month plus the obits and advertising  should have free unlimited access since these are paid for by the advertisers. $10 per month is not unreasonable for all the content that the Oklahoman provides in my opinion. Special prices or even free access should be provided to families of Oklahoma students and that should be offered through the public schools systems of the state. I know my early childhood development was strongly influenced by daily reading of the Oklahoman (and I turned out to be a liberal in spite of knowing & respecting E. K. Gaylord & having a very conservative family). Mr. Gaylord went to my church (Pilgrim Congregational).  I always just thought independently but I liked Mr. Gaylord. 

I do think the online version of the Oklahoman should have a deadline of at least 2 am to 4 am so that sports from the West Coast are fully reported. I plan to buy a tablet with at least a 10 to 12 inch screen just to read the digital version of the Oklahoman if it has a late deadline.  I can always read the latest news at home with my 32 inch monitor/TV attached to my laptop. But I like to read the Oklahoman at breakfast (often at a local fast food restaurant) & I may have to get used to reading it on a large tablet.

----------


## stile99

> I can't complain, though, since my subscription costs have been reduced substantially since I retired & live off social security. 
> 
> The current price of the Oklahoman with print and web access is only $12 per month.


My Father is pretty much the same situation, he's retired, social security, does have a small pension in addition to that, to be completely honest.  He liked reading the paper, and he is certainly not the type to be reading it on the computer and/or tablet (take a guess who got called to change the clocks this morning).  That $12/month is only for the Sunday paper (with a Wednesday 'bonus'), the last quote they gave him that made him say no, this isn't worth it was north of $200.  It basically boiled down to pretty much the same price as getting it at the store or a dispenser, I think when figured it was like a "month free" or something.  Even at $12/month for just the Sunday, that's $144 for 52 issues, a cost of just over $2.75 per paper.  If you roll in the cost of the 'bonus' Wednesday edition, that's $2.25 for the Sunday paper.

Now again, my Father is not going to be getting one byte of information from the website.  So telling him he gets "full access" means absolutely nothing to him.  If the Oklahoman really had an interest in keeping subscribers to the print edition, they would come up with a plan that doesn't include web access, and actually presents a savings to the customer in return for the guaranteed income.  But instead, as mentioned earlier, they consider such a deal to be a "liability" rather than "life blood".

----------


## SoonerDave

> My Father is pretty much the same situation, he's retired, social security, does have a small pension in addition to that, to be completely honest.  He liked reading the paper, and he is certainly not the type to be reading it on the computer and/or tablet (take a guess who got called to change the clocks this morning).  That $12/month is only for the Sunday paper (with a Wednesday 'bonus'), the last quote they gave him that made him say no, this isn't worth it was north of $200.  It basically boiled down to pretty much the same price as getting it at the store or a dispenser, I think when figured it was like a "month free" or something.  Even at $12/month for just the Sunday, that's $144 for 52 issues, a cost of just over $2.75 per paper.  If you roll in the cost of the 'bonus' Wednesday edition, that's $2.25 for the Sunday paper.
> 
> Now again, my Father is not going to be getting one byte of information from the website.  So telling him he gets "full access" means absolutely nothing to him.  If the Oklahoman really had an interest in keeping subscribers to the print edition, they would come up with a plan that doesn't include web access, and actually presents a savings to the customer in return for the guaranteed income.  But instead, as mentioned earlier, they consider such a deal to be a "liability" rather than "life blood".


I always hate the chronic oversell of the so-called "value proposition"  - the Oklahoman does this by selling what they call the "premium" experience. Premium? For reading a newspaper article? Premium? Premium is a gasoline. Premium means something exceptional. Not what you've always *been* getting in just a different form. It'd be like a restaurant charging you $10 extra to put your order in the queue immediately, but call it the "Premium Preparation Lane" in the kitchen, or purposely waiting 10 minutes and putting it in the "regular preparation lane."  "Full access" is just a different spin on the same thing. Sell that value proposition. Oh, well, they've got to make a living, I suppose.

There's just no future in it. Content sells, not just access, and for me the Oklahoman's content died a long time ago. Others still like it, that's cool, too. C'est la vie.

----------


## Pete

Steve mentioned in his chat today that the Oklahoman is hiring back Jack Money to cover the retail beat.

Brianna Bailey is joining their investigative team.

For a struggling enterprise they have added a bunch of reporters in the last year or so to cover business:  2 energy reporters, hired Brianna from the Journal Record, hired Ben Felder and now Jack Money.

----------


## TheTravellers

Heard today that not only is the Tulsa World's press printing the Tulsa World and the Joklahoman, but the WSJ and USA Today.  Presses run pretty much 24x7, I guess, and no downtime for maintenance and things are going to have a catastrophic breakdown eventually.  Also, not enough qualified press workers are there, which adds to the troubles.

----------


## mkokc

Rumor mill bubbling with word that Warren Buffett, who  owns Tulsa World, might be interested in buying The Oklahoman, too. Would only make sense at this point and frankly, would be better for OKC.

----------


## Pete

This made me laugh:

----------


## HangryHippo

> Rumor mill bubbling with word that Warren Buffett, who  owns Tulsa World, might be interested in buying The Oklahoman, too. Would only make sense at this point and frankly, would be better for OKC.


This would be interesting.

----------


## Pete

This is interesting.

Recently hired reporter Ben Felder calling out the Oklahoman editorial board for refuting one of his articles that he wrote for the Oklahoman.  What the heck is going on here?

----------


## dankrutka

Ben is a great reporter with a lot of integrity. His reporting is thorough. The Oklahoman is lucky to have him.

----------


## John1744

We received notice at our store that the Daily Oklahoman will go from .75 to $1.50 and Sunday Edition from $2.00 to $3.00

----------


## stile99

Darn.  Wish I still subscribed so I could cancel again.

----------


## stick47

Tentative plan is for the price increase to be for newsstand issues only at this time and is expected to go in place Oct 1.

----------


## Pete

This is the length that Steve Lackmeyer often goes to in order to avoid providing one shred of credit to this site, and how he directly lifts info from OKCTalk without attribution.

This question was asked based on our exclusive story on this new bar just yesterday.  Nothing on this had previously been reported.  If Lackmeyer knew all this before yesterday where was his story?

Rather than saying "OKCTalk reported" he goes way out of his way to avoid any reference to us whatsoever.

Several people have told me he will edit out the name "OKCTalk" if contained in a question posed during these chats.

At the same time, when he or any other journalist writes a story of interest, the link gets posted here with full credit at every turn.

The issues between Oklahoman / Lackmeyer and OKCTalk are not merely a 'feud' or a 'misunderstanding' as they would like to characterize things.  It is the stealing of our content and the deliberate, outrageously unethical behavior exclusively on their part.  This, coupled with scores and scores of comments in social media with the direct intent to discredit this site.

It's nothing but taking advantage of their inherited bully pulpit and my own strong sense of ethics which prohibits me from retaliating in kind.

----------


## acumpton

It's an obvious copy and paste.  He doesn't even give his actual thoughts as the guest requested.

----------


## T. Jamison

> It's an obvious copy and paste.  He doesn't even give his actual thoughts as the guest requested.


Which is ironic given that his writing is typically heavy on opinion.

----------


## Jim Kyle

So what else is new, Pete? There's a C&W song about "An Old Family Tradition" that's quite applicable here. In 1958 my city editor, the late Chan Guffey, told me in so many words 'It's not news until we print it." More than 100 years ago a failed chamber of commerce administrator moved here from Colorado Springs, bought into a struggling new newspaper, and built it into an empire. The second generation of his heirs sold off most of it to an out-of-state promoter who proceeded to downsize things. But the Old Family Tradition remains, even though the print editions are now less than 1/8 as many pages as they were some 50 years ago. The more things change, the more they remain the same. Fortunately, technology has given us other information sources, that may or may not prove to be more reliable in the long run. It all depends on individuals like yourself; keep up the good work!

----------


## catcherinthewry

> This is the length that Steve Lackmeyer often goes to in order to avoid providing one shred of credit to this site, and how he directly lifts info from OKCTalk without attribution.
> 
> This question was asked based on our exclusive story on this new bar just yesterday.  Nothing on this had previously been reported.  If Lackmeyer knew all this before yesterday where was his story?
> 
> Rather than saying "OKCTalk reported" he goes way out of his way to avoid any reference to us whatsoever.
> 
> Several people have told me he will edit out the name "OKCTalk" if contained in a question posed during these chats.
> 
> At the same time, when he or any other journalist writes a story of interest, the link gets posted here with full credit at every turn.
> ...


#Sad

----------


## PhiAlpha

#FakeNews?

----------


## Pete

The Oklahoman has hired yet another retail reporter.

In just the last few years they have hired Brianna Bailey from the Journal Record (subsequently moved her off the retail beat), re-hired Jack Money to cover Brianna's previous responsibilities and just last this month hired David Dishman who has the title of 'retail reporter'.

That is 3 new business writers all to cover this subject, and of course on Dishman's 3rd article for the paper, he merely picked up the OKCTalk article on 9000 Broadway and did a quick matching story, 'confirming' while not mentioning what is being confirmed (our report):  http://newsok.com/developer-confirms...rticle/5575706

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> The Oklahoman has hired yet another retail reporter.
> 
> In just the last few years they have hired Brianna Bailey from the Journal Record (subsequently moved her off the retail beat), re-hired Jack Money to cover Brianna's previous responsibilities and just last this month hired David Dishman who has the title of 'retail reporter'.
> 
> That is 3 new business writers all to cover this subject, and of course on Dishman's 3rd article for the paper, he merely picked up the OKCTalk article on 9000 Broadway and did a quick matching story, 'confirming' while not mentioning what is being confirmed (our report):  http://newsok.com/developer-confirms...rticle/5575706


 :Smiley130:

----------


## riflesforwatie

If you really want to be sad, check out the Oklahoman's 'retail chat' sometime. Many questions are about stuff confirmed here on OKCTalk months ago, and the Oklahoman's response is almost always something to the effect of 'thanks for the tip, we'll have to look into that' or 'interesting, we haven't heard about that'. Lol.

----------


## TheTravellers

Be nice if they hired an actual investigative reporter to do some actual journalism, but I suspect those times are long past for this cage liner of a paper.

----------


## onthestrip

Three retail writers seems completely unnecessary. Especially when they can/do rip off stories from here or the Journal Record a day later. Hire another capital reporter for goodness sake.

Also, not sure why Hogan is announcing Flix as part of this development when he doesnt have a signed deal yet.

----------


## mugofbeer

Even though your ethics prevent you from retaliating, I hope you are protecting yourself by recording each incident that you see happen.  You may practice ethical business but they may not.  You may find yourself and OKCTALK being attacked by them and in need of proof you had the info first.  Perhaps occasional use of a name, $ amount or date that is intentionally incorrect or some other method to sting them?

----------


## Pete

> Even though your ethics prevent you from retaliating, I hope you are protecting yourself by recording each incident that you see happen.  You may practice ethical business but they may not.  You may find yourself and OKCTALK being attacked by them and in need of proof you had the info first.  Perhaps occasional use of a name, $ amount or date that is intentionally incorrect or some other method to sting them?


I document EVERYTHING and have been doing so for years.

----------


## theanvil

Let's be honest about OPUBCO.  You know things are bad when they use those click bait (Top Five Whatevers) articles in order to get page views for their advertisers.  'News'OK is their name and I find its "News" to be increasingly irrelevant in terms of timing and substance.  In my circle of educated and business professional peers, I honestly can't remember the last time I heard someone refer to something they had read or learned on NewsOK.  However, OKCTalk is mentioned regularly.

----------


## Jim Kyle

Note, too, that they currently advertise their subscription price at less than $2/week although I pay more than $20/month for it -- specifically to maintain my access to their archives. I do note that they do NOT claim that low rate is for printed copies, or home delivery! Wondering if they still belong to the ABC?

----------


## TheTravellers

> Note, too, that they currently advertise their subscription price at less than $2/week although I pay more than $20/month for it -- specifically to maintain my access to their archives. I do note that they do NOT claim that low rate is for printed copies, or home delivery! Wondering if they still belong to the ABC?


If you're talking about the digital archives, you can get them for free using your library card.  I believe it's under Research from their home page, then Oklahoma Newspapers.  Their system isn't responding right now, but I think all you do then is log on using your library card number and last name and you've got access.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> If you're talking about the digital archives, you can get them for free using your library card.


I've used this approach in the past, but there seems to be a second set of archives that's more complete but accessible only to subscribers, with a more configurable set of search rules. It's worth the cost to me. My point was to question the ethics of advertising a price of $1.54/week without telling folk just what that would buy them.

----------


## TheTravellers

> ... My point was to question the ethics of advertising a price of $1.54/week without telling folk just what that would buy them.


Gotcha.  Yep, those ethics are questionable, along with a lot of what they do.  :Smile:

----------


## Pete

For a while now, the Oklahoman has had an ad campaign that basically asserts its product is better than others, especially that evil 'social media': 

http://oklahomaunfolded.com/

----------


## Jim Kyle

And of course it's pretty true, considering what passes for "journalism' on Twitter and Facebook. My impression though is that the current ad campaign represents the dying screams of a dinosaur...

----------


## onthestrip

> For a while now, the Oklahoman has had an ad campaign that basically asserts its product is better than others, especially that evil 'social media': 
> 
> http://oklahomaunfolded.com/


If this teacher is a reader, which I doubt, then she must get upset a lot when the editors frequently make light of our bad  teacher pay and emergency teaching certificate situation.

----------


## Pete

Brianna Bailey has left the Oklahoman for the Tulsa-based non-profit The Frontier.

Very strange.

----------


## stjohn

Good for her. Funny how good some of the individual reporters are at the Oklahoman, but how miserably out of touch the editorial board is.

----------


## dankrutka

> Good for her. Funny how good some of the individual reporters are at the Oklahoman, but how miserably out of touch the editorial board is.


Yep. Ben Felder's work on education has been the best I've seen in the state. Really hope he stays around. Oklahoma education needs good reporters.

----------


## stjohn

100%. Felder is exactly the other reporter I had in mind.

----------


## Pete

Ben recently announced on social media he would be heading up a 3-person investigative team and that one of their focuses would remain education.

He has also used social media to openly criticize the Oklahoman's editorial board.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Ben recently announced on social media he would be heading up a 3-person investigative team and that one of their focuses would remain education.
> 
> He has also used social media to openly criticize the Oklahoman's editorial board.


Of course you have to wonder how neutral and unbiased his investigations will be when he is pretty open with his liberal views.     I do miss the days when investigative reporters just stuck to the facts and not their personal biases

----------


## Pete

> Of course you have to wonder how neutral and unbiased his investigations will be when he is pretty open with his liberal views.     I do miss the days when investigative reporters just stuck to the facts and not their personal biases


Like the rest of the Oklahoman reporters??   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## BoulderSooner

Exactly it is a large problem everywhere and has been for some time.  I really don’t want my news slanted either way.

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

I've seen too many interviews of young journalists who, when asked why they entered the field, responded, "Because I want to make a difference in the world." 

Like Boulder, I want news straight up, accurate and complete, preferably proofed by an editor before distribution. Just tell me what happened at city hall, the state capitol, in court, and on the police blotter (if its of substance).

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Like the rest of the Oklahoman reporters??


 Lackmeyer is one of the worst offenders. He injects his opinion so much that I feel some of his articles belong on the op/ed page. He should reports the facts and save his opinion for his blog posts.

----------


## Urbanized

^^^^^^^
As Pete knows I restrain myself from getting involved in this conversation - because I consider both Pete and Steve friends - but it absolutely *must* be pointed out here that Steve is a business *COLUMNIST*. He is paid to give opinion, and to have it appear on the business page. This is standard practice at newspapers all over the country. When it is a column, when he writes in first person, etc., it is SUPPOSED to be the opinion of someone who has covered downtown for years, just like when Berry Trammel writes columns appearing in the sports section, based on his own experiences in sports journalism. When Steve is writing a column it is supposed to be labeled "OKC Central," which is the branding of both his column and of his blog.

When he writes an ARTICLE, it is ostensibly devoid of opinion, and if you pay attention to which is which, you can see the differences between his columns and his news reporting. Whether he always succeeds is of course debatable, but as has been pointed out, opinion has been leaking into journalism in general, which is unfortunate. I do believe that he tries in this regard. I think it is also fair to say that at times The Oklahoman does a poor job of making it clear that his column is an opinion piece. But again, for the record, he is 100% expected to render opinion in his columns. It is the entire point.

----------


## Pete

^

Having the same person attempt to be both a columnist and reporter represents bad journalistic practice, especially one that does both virtually every week.

This comes from an authority on journalism ethics I recently interviewed.

----------


## Urbanized

But of course it happens in many, many publications and has for many, many years. And also to some extent it is probably happening more due to the generally struggling daily newspaper business model and all of the staff cuts resulting from this. Having someone on staff who ONLY writes columns on things like sports or business is a luxury these days.

And with that, I'm bowing out of this discussion. Just wanted to point out that he is in fact a columnist, not only a reporter.

----------


## Pete

> But of course it happens in many, many publications and has for many, many years. And also to some extent it is probably happening more due to the generally struggling daily newspaper business model and all of the staff cuts resulting from this.


I don't think it happens in this way -- virtually every single week without no discernible identification between reporting and opinion -- nearly as often as you are suggesting.  In fact, I challenge you to produce another such example.

The Oklahoman has hired at least 10 new business writers in just the last couple of years, still employs about 500 people, and this particular writer has been continuously employed by this organization for more than 3 decades.

I don't accept the 'struggling' excuse, especially when you are owned by one of the world's richest men.

----------


## Urbanized

Like I said, I am not going to participate further. Only pointing out that he is a columnist for those who do not seem to know this. People are free to research this topic and draw their own conclusions; I'm not going to be drawn further into this particular echo chamber - and honestly immediately regretting getting involved at all - because no matter what I might bring to this topic it would be a no-win in this forum.

----------


## Pete

I think it's an important discussion for the betterment of Oklahoma journalism and in turn the OKC community.  I have done my best to get objective viewpoints from experts and try and hold myself accountable and raise the bar locally when it comes to proper and best journalistic practices.

l will add that you have repeatedly defended this particular writer on this forum yet I have never seen you do the same when that same person has used his loud megaphone provided by his powerful employer to trash this site, me personally and directly lift our content without providing due credit.

That's your prerogative but you're involvement in all of this has been in no way objective or equal.

----------


## Pete

While we are on this subject, here is a particular way that reporting and opinion are intermixed:

http://newsok.com/local-first-nation...rticle/5578822

"Local owners" is not even accurate.  Charlie Nicholas -- who I believe is the majority owner in FNC -- is not local at all.  Is this article supposed to be fact or opinion?? There are strong elements of both here.


This local ownership ax-grinding is a favorite saw of this particular reporter which is absurd since his own company was acquired by an out-of-state interest several years ago.

And as I've mentioned elsewhere, defining something as "locally owned" is a complex matter that is often over-simplified to make a predetermined point.

----------


## Urbanized

> I think it's an important discussion for the betterment of Oklahoma journalism and in turn the OKC community.  I have done my best to get objective viewpoints from experts and try and hold myself accountable and raise the bar locally when it comes to proper and best journalistic practices.
> 
> l will add that you have repeatedly defended this particular writer on this forum yet I have never seen you do the same when that same person has used his loud megaphone provided by his powerful employer to trash this site, me personally and directly lift our content without providing due credit.
> 
> That's your prerogative but you're involvement in all of this has been in no way objective or equal.


1. Produce examples of me "repeatedly defending" the reporter in question. I have stayed away from doing so with purpose, especially in recent years. You may find a few, but very few. You are perhaps confusing postings here with private conversations you and I have had.

2. You are 100% and CATEGORICALLY incorrect that I do not defend you or this site. I have stuck my neck out privately (and continue to)  on your behalf and on the behalf of the site for years, and to people who matter. It would probably be advisable for me not to do so, considering pervasive negative views and lack of understanding that many people have regarding OKCTalk. As you know I believe it is a valuable tool and I believe you are a valuable and well-intentioned voice in our community.

4. Regarding this particular individual, I strongly encouraged him years ago to stay away from any negative talk of this site, and for the most part in recent years he has done so, to my knowledge. All I know is I am personally exposed to near-constant discussion on this site disparaging and discrediting that publication and that reporter - which I almost never respond to - and these days I rarely if ever hear disparagement from the other party. Also - as I have told you personally - some of the most difficult discussions and heated disagreements I have had with him have been in defense of you and this site, which as I just stated are essentially coming after him at every turn and trashing him and his publication daily. This is not at all difficult to document. Scroll through any thread; it is an obsession of this site. To suggest I haven't is simply not true, and honestly insulting, considering how vigorously I defend you to anyone. Like I have said in this post and have told you personally many times before, I stick my neck out for this site, its value, and for Pete himself on a very regular basis. I've expended personal and (I'm sure) political capital on your behalf, and will continue to do so, and I'd thank you to acknowledge this. I know for a fact that you're aware of it.

3. Finally, regarding me being involved in the discussion, I will once again say that it is only to point out that Steve is a columnist in addition to being a reporter. Some people seem to be unaware of this. This isn't a defense of him. It is only clarification.

----------


## stjohn

> ^^^^^^^
> As Pete knows I restrain myself from getting involved in this conversation - because I consider both Pete and Steve friends - but it absolutely *must* be pointed out here that Steve is a business *COLUMNIST*. He is paid to give opinion, and to have it appear on the business page. This is standard practice at newspapers all over the country. When it is a column, when he writes in first person, etc., it is SUPPOSED to be the opinion of someone who has covered downtown for years, just like when Berry Trammel writes columns appearing in the sports section, based on his own experiences in sports journalism. When Steve is writing a column it is supposed to be labeled "OKC Central," which is the branding of both his column and of his blog.
> 
> When he writes an ARTICLE, it is ostensibly devoid of opinion, and if you pay attention to which is which, you can see the differences between his columns and his news reporting. Whether he always succeeds is of course debatable, but as has been pointed out, opinion has been leaking into journalism in general, which is unfortunate. I do believe that he tries in this regard. I think it is also fair to say that at times The Oklahoman does a poor job of making it clear that his column is an opinion piece. But again, for the record, he is 100% expected to render opinion in his columns. It is the entire point.


Steve absolutely, 100% DOES NOT remove his opinion from his articles. In a position with the level of influence such as his, that has always been one of my bigger issues with his reporting.

----------


## baralheia

> [...] considering pervasive negative views and lack of understanding that many people have regarding OKCTalk.


Please forgive my ignorance, but.... why? I personally find OKCTalk to be an incredible resource for learning about new projects and the inner workings of what's happening in OKC. What negative views of the site do you hear?

----------


## Pete

> 1. Produce examples of me "repeatedly defending" the reporter in question. I have stayed away from doing so with purpose, especially in recent years. You may find a few, but very few. You are perhaps confusing postings here with private conversations you and I have had.
> 
> 2. You are 100% and CATEGORICALLY incorrect that I do not defend you or this site. I have stuck my neck out privately (and continue to)  on your behalf and on the behalf of the site for years, and to people who matter. It would probably be advisable for me not to do so, considering pervasive negative views and lack of understanding that many people have regarding OKCTalk. As you know I believe it is a valuable tool and I believe you are a valuable and well-intentioned voice in our community.
> 
> 4. Regarding this particular individual, I strongly encouraged him years ago to stay away from any negative talk of this site, and for the most part in recent years he has done so, to my knowledge. All I know is I am personally exposed to near-constant discussion on this site disparaging and discrediting that publication and that reporter - which I almost never respond to - and these days I rarely if ever hear disparagement from the other party. Also - as I have told you personally - some of the most difficult discussions and heated disagreements I have had with him have been in defense of you and this site, which as I just stated are essentially coming after him at every turn and trashing him and his publication daily. This is not at all difficult to document. Scroll through any thread; it is an obsession of this site. To suggest I haven't is simply not true, and honestly insulting, considering how vigorously I defend you to anyone. Like I have said in this post and have told you personally many times before, I stick my neck out for this site, its value, and for Pete himself on a very regular basis. I've expended personal and (I'm sure) political capital on your behalf, and will continue to do so, and I'd thank you to acknowledge this. I know for a fact that you're aware of it.
> 
> 3. Finally, regarding me being involved in the discussion, I will once again say that it is only to point out that Steve is a columnist in addition to being a reporter. Some people seem to be unaware of this. This isn't a defense of him. It is only clarification.


I am speaking exclusively to your public comments, which matter greatly and are the only thing that would be apparent to people who read this site.

I do appreciate your kind words and introductions which have definitely opened some doors and helped mend fences.  As to why those fences needed mending in the first place, I think that has been made obvious by my previous comments.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Please forgive my ignorance, but.... why? I personally find OKCTalk to be an incredible resource for learning about new projects and the inner workings of what's happening in OKC. What negative views of the site do you hear?


This was news to me as well. I've never heard one negative thing about this website.

----------


## Rover

Pete, just curious...do you consider yourself a journalist in your role reporting and commenting on this site?

----------


## Pete

> Pete, just curious...do you consider yourself a journalist in your role reporting and commenting on this site?


I am a reporter in terms of items on our News page.

Otherwise, in the forum I am merely a poster with my own opinions.

----------


## Urbanized

> Please forgive my ignorance, but.... why? I personally find OKCTalk to be an incredible resource for learning about new projects and the inner workings of what's happening in OKC. What negative views of the site do you hear?


Most of it comes from persons who only casually/occasionally read the the site, or have a lack of understanding of how discussion forums work. Consider that for many in business and leadership in OKC their first interaction with this site is/was when someone directs them to a thread where their business/design/development/effort is being critiqued/criticized. In fact this is how I originally came to post regularly on the site a decade ago; I was responding to my business being denigrated here. Others arrived here in the same manner, for instance, Jeepnokc who came here because of critiques of the office he was building. Instead of taking it personally or rejecting the site as a bunch of haters as some do, he tried to better understand the criticism and also to politely engage, plus correct imperfect information where warranted. I took the same approach myself. Today that approach of course is social media 101, and extends to consumer sites like Yelp, Tripadvisor, Facebook business listings, etc...but all of these sites are variously seen as hater sites by many people whose only interactions are when they go there to see their own negative reviews.

A casual user would also not understand that when someone puts forward incorrect information on this site (as will naturally happen in any open forum) it is almost always quickly corrected by someone with access to more accurate info. This is an important and valuable feature of this site; there are knowledgeable contributors who can and usually do correct misinformation. You and I are regulars here and understand that it exists, but if you are not a regular reader you would NOT understand this. Their (wrong) perception is that anyone can say anything without consequence or correction.

Good use of the FORUM function of OKCTalk really demands that a reader invest time and effort into knowing who is credible, knowing and understanding various biases people may have, etc.. An example of this is in the convention center discussion. Most anyone who follows that discussion knows that Pete and I regularly go back and forth (generally with much respect for the other's opinion). I get many messages both online and in person from people who appreciate industry insight that I bring. But a seasoned reader is also perfectly justified in remembering that I am still from within the visitor industry (as Pete often reminds people) and therefore they're entitled to take my opinion with a grain of salt or to dismiss me as merely a booster. Just as they must also remember that Pete has routinely expressed considerable questioning (I'll stop short of saying bias) toward most current uses of TIF and other public funding in general, plus a disdain for certain personalities and processes (or lack thereof  :Smile:  ). It is completely fair to consider all of these things when analyzing our conversations, and often the truth is somewhere in the middle, anyway.

But a casual user of the site (most still are) doesn't have the benefit of knowing our various angles. They also don't know when someone commenting on a project has - for instance - a background in urban planning vs - again for instance - a simple and general disdain for anything and everything OKC (I'm sure you can think of one or two volume posters over the years who fit this description). The problem is for a casual consumer of information, the latter comes off so shockingly negative (and in the past, high-volume) that it unfairly colors their opinion of the entire site. I will pause to point out that Pete has actually BANNED a few of the people who were so pervasively negative, and much to the benefit of the discourse here in my opinion. I know personally that he struggled with these decisions but ultimately decided that honest, civil discourse and the site's overall reputation outweighed unrestricted speech or any value they brought. And those of us who are regulars here know that the comments on the site are overwhelmingly positive and constructive, in reality.

But the reputation of those negative posters still remains, especially among people who rejected the site years ago over those types of comments, and this is most unfair in my opinion. This is where I often stick my neck out; I ALWAYS defend Pete, this site and its general population of posters to people who try to paint the site with one brush, as often happens in my experience. If you've never heard a bad word we definitely move in different circles; I find myself defending the site several times a month, minimum. Some of this probably also happens because I'm open about my identity here; people know I post on this site and often ask me why I bother. If a person completely hides their identity on here they probably don't have near the number of people spontaneously asking them about the site. If you think this doesn't happen or does not exist in the community, just ask Pete directly, as he is very aware of those comments and is justifiably offended by them. It 100% does happen - often among people who very much matter - and it is surely maddening for him as OKCTalk's owner as I know it is frustrating for me as someone who uses and appreciates the site.

Also, many casual consumers don't recognize the difference between the discussion forum and Pete's news gathering for the site. I know he has worked diligently to provide some separation between the two, which I think is very appropriate.

Finally, the other things that I think have a bearing are occasional, very personal comments made on OKCTalk towards persons who aren't here to defend themselves but who usually are otherwise well-regarded in the community. Those without question turn off not only those specific people (when the comments get back around to them) but also the people who know them personally, work with them, respect them. This is a small town in many ways. Again I will point out that Pete has done a very good job over the years of squelching much of this type of talk and reminding posters that these are still individuals living and working in OKC and that we should keep things civil, even as we air differences of opinion.

I say NONE of these things as criticisms of the site - which in my own opinion is excellent and very well-moderated by Pete - I only say them to answer your question as to what negative comments exist in the community and why. I obviously greatly value the site myself or I wouldn't spend my time here trying to add to the conversation or, often, learning new information myself. But at the end of the day a certain portion of the population will view what we do here as not much different than the comment sections at the bottom of online news stories from TV and newspaper sites, although you and I know it is a thousand times more valuable and informative.

OK, enough about all of this. You asked, I answered. Hopefully that counts as me defending OKCTalk in a public forum. Feel free to go back to bashing the newspaper...  :Smile:

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## bradh

Glad Urbanized didn't bow out like he said he would.  He's a solid voice and the poster I respect the most here.  

Pete, one of these days you're going to have to break off your reporting from the forums to earn the respect you desire.

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## mugofbeer

Why would that be necessary?  News should be discussed and media such as this site gives more people more direct participation.  I think this type of format is the future.

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## Pete

I apologized to Urbanized in private but wanted to also do it here on the site, since this is where I called him out to a certain degree.

Urbanized is a great and valued poster who is in a difficult spot, and I've told him that.


At the same time, I think he and others who pay attention understand my frustration.

I try my honest best to follow the universally known and accepted best practices of journalism, chiefly providing credit to others where due so they can be rewarded for their work.  That the state's largest news agency actively works against these principles is disappointing and bad for the community and the profession, but I will not abandon my commitment to what I know to be right from both a common sense standpoint and through interviewing experts in the field.

I also never ask anyone -- people who read here and even those I interview for stories -- to chose between OKCTalk and the Oklahoman or other news outlets.  I think that is highly unethical but it also makes it easy for others to duplicate our work without providing proper credit.

Reluctantly, I accept all of that while I also continue to work very, very hard at presenting completely new information and stories.

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## rte66man

Pete, as one of the occasional posters for the past few years, I want to personally thank you for this forum.  I always go here for the "real" scoop on civic matters as I can trust most of the posters over what the tv or NewsOK says.  I would echo everything Urbanized said above.  Please keep up the good work.

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## Urbanized

Yes Pete, thanks for your kind words (also thanks to bradh for the kind things he said above). And Pete I will also echo a thank you for keeping the forum up and running, for keeping it a generally fair and civil place, and for doing the work you do to bring new information to the table on a regular basis. Probably as much as anyone here I know the effort you put into it.

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## Urbanized

> Glad Urbanized didn't bow out like he said he would...


Oh and one other thing...I only said I was generally staying out of the OPUBCO discussion...and I still intend to do this! No plans whatsoever to stop flapping my yap elsewhere on the site, for better or worse...  :Smile:

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## Jim Kyle

> This comes from an authority on journalism ethics I recently interviewed.


Gotta make a point here, Pete. No such authority exists, because no genuine code of ethics for journalism exists. That point was brought out to me quite forcefully many years ago by H. H. Herbert, founder of the OU J-School, who taught a required course of 'Ethics in Journalism" at OU. The only facsimile for such is the personal ethical code of the individual journalist, which can be and is regularly overridden by the policies of the employers. This has driven many if not most of the traditional ethical practices into the dustbin of history. This city has never, in its 120 years of existence, enjoyed a truly ethical press with any real power.

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## Pete

> Gotta make a point here, Pete. No such authority exists, because no genuine code of ethics for journalism exists. That point was brought out to me quite forcefully many years ago by H. H. Herbert, founder of the OU J-School, who taught a required course of 'Ethics in Journalism" at OU. The only facsimile for such is the personal ethical code of the individual journalist, which can be and is regularly overridden by the policies of the employers. This has driven many if not most of the traditional ethical practices into the dustbin of history. This city has never, in its 120 years of existence, enjoyed a truly ethical press with any real power.


I interviewed a professor in Florida who teaches a course on journalistic ethics and who was referred to me by reporters at Reuters.

There is also a formal ethics committee at the Society of Professional Journalists (I am a member) and I've talked to them extensively on these subjects and they have also shared written standards from Reuters, Bloomberg and other respected publications.

At some point I will write more about all this, but wanted to underscore I am not merely expressing my opinion but citing the best sources I could find.

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## Jim Kyle

And I must hasten to add that you, Pete, regularly display the high standard of "journalistic ethics" that I had expected to be universal before I became immersed in the industry and saw the lack of same up close and personal. I regularly come here to find out what is really happening in OKC, and only wish that a similarly ethocal site existed to keep me posted on the national and international scene!

Also note that I became a member of Sigma Delta Chi while still in J-School, and its evolution into the SPJ took place long after practices at NW 4 and Broadway had driven me out of the "working press." Even then, it had a written code that we were expected to follow, but unlike Law, Medicine, and Engineering, there was no code with legal enforcement -- and thanks to the First Amendment, no such powerful code can be created in this nation (for which I am grateful).

What's needed is increased accountability on the part of the owners, but that's been steadily diminishing for longer than either of us has been alive.

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## catcherinthewry

> Steve is a business *COLUMNIST*. He is paid to give opinion, and to have it appear on the business page. This is standard practice at newspapers all over the country. When it is a column, when he writes in first person, etc., it is SUPPOSED to be the opinion of someone who has covered downtown for years, just like when Berry Trammel writes columns appearing in the sports section, based on his own experiences in sports journalism. When Steve is writing a column it is supposed to be labeled "OKC Central," which is the branding of both his column and of his blog.


Thanks for pointing that out. I had never noticed that before and I'm sure I'm not alone in knowing that OKC Central signifies a column. In fact, I had never even noticed that he writes under that from time to time. As for Tramel, whenever he writes there is a sub-header that says "Commentary".

I also thought it was interesting that today when Steve wrote under OKC Central today about Villa Teresa he didn't seem to inject any opinion.

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## onthestrip

> I've seen too many interviews of young journalists who, when asked why they entered the field, responded, "Because I want to make a difference in the world." 
> 
> Like Boulder, I want news straight up, accurate and complete, preferably proofed by an editor before distribution. Just tell me what happened at city hall, the state capitol, in court, and on the police blotter (if its of substance).


I for one want some journalists to make a difference. I want there to be aspiring people who want to uncover injustice and corruption. Not sure why there cant be journalists that do that.

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## Pete

> Thanks for pointing that out. I had never noticed that before and I'm sure I'm not alone in knowing that OKC Central signifies a column. In fact, I had never even noticed that he writes under that from time to time. As for Tramel, whenever he writes there is a sub-header that says "Commentary".
> 
> I also thought it was interesting that today when Steve wrote under OKC Central today about Villa Teresa he didn't seem to inject any opinion.


All of his work goes under OKC Central -- reporting, opinion, etc.  That does not signify column or pure opinion.

Similarly, his Twitter account is under OKC Central and that is pure opinion and all kinds of absolute craziness.  And no where does it say "these opinions are my own".   That the Oklahoman allows that -- just like they allowed Brianna Bailey to post f* and s* bombs all over the place -- says much about their editors and general lack of control.

I get it's a new era and you want to encourage your writers to reach people on social platforms, but when you are using a company's name to do that, you'd think someone would care that you say f* over and over again.  But not the Oklahoman.

I realize Lackmeyer has both the designation of columnist and reporter but 1) that's bad journalistic practice; 2) to the extent others do it, they generally do it for small, unprofessional publications and/or very infrequently; 3) even at the Oklahoman few do both and it's always clear which is which; and 4) he frequently mixes both reporting and opinion.

I will also restate my point this is NOT a common practice even at the Oklahoman.

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## Pete

> I for one want some journalists to make a difference. I want there to be aspiring people who want to uncover injustice and corruption. Not sure why there can’t be journalists that do that.


You have to have a reason to write a story, dig into something, etc.  That is, unless you just want to sit around and field and re-write press releases.

The key is being fair even though you are pursuing a certain angle.  For all the bashing that national media has been receiving, the huge majority is just people lot liking what is being reported.  I've worked with both Bloomberg and Reuters and there were tons of things their editors cut simple due to the fact that we had to be able to 100% back up everything we wrote.

The issue is what those big enterprises choose to cover.  But when they cover something, they are very buttoned down which is why you almost never see them being successfully sued.  And that is generally the standard:  Could you defend your reporting in a court of law?

It's also why few lawsuits are even attempted because the accusing party is just posturing and knows darn well they don't have a case.  And if push came to shove, the reporter would be able to verify everything they had written and get to go into more detail and rehash in a public court.

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## catcherinthewry

> All of his work goes under OKC Central -- reporting, opinion, etc.  That does not signify column or pure opinion


That may be true online, but in the physical paper under his byline it normally just says Business Writer. Today was the only time in the last two weeks that his story was under OKC Central.

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## jonny d

My only quarrel with the DOK is that they must like to act like OKCTalk does not exist. Every one of their premium articles, I have already seen the information here before it even comes out. We have such awesome sleuthers and informed posters on here, that those articles, even though they cost $.99 each, are already outdated by the time they get on the website.

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## jn1780

> My only quarrel with the DOK is that they must like to act like OKCTalk does not exist. Every one of their premium articles, I have already seen the information here before it even comes out. We have such awesome sleuthers and informed posters on here, that those articles, even though they cost $.99 each, are already outdated by the time they get on the website.


That's not really surprising.  There are still a lot of people who know nothing about OKC talk and the DOK isn't about to tell them that they can get the same content for free.

Regarding the editorial content, you can find a lot of people on youtube and blogs who will offer their opinions without an extra charge.

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## jerrywall

BTW Pete, on a personal note, and not really directed at the DOK (which I won't get into because I know we don't agree 100%)....  This site - my wife, my mother, family members, coworkers, friends, etc, always call me to find out about new developments, or what's being built somewhere, etc, because they know I'll know.  And the only reason is because I consume everything here.  So thanks for making me look much smarter than I am.

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## Ross MacLochness

I appreciate that people on this forum can disagree while still being respectful and not take things too personally.  That's a quality that's extremely hard to find in most online discussions and increasingly difficult to come by in person to person discourse.

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## Pete

There will always be some who try to characterize the discussions here as negative or argumentative or even conspiracy theory but I defy you to find an open forum where people are more respectful and knowledgeable.

And, if not for OKCTalk where would you go to discuss anything in OKC? There are a few Facebook groups but they are a completely different animal.  I could point to many, many examples of where discussion and information sharing here has absolutely benefited the community.

When you run an open forum you are going to get people criticizing, as that is the nature of on-line discourse.  But I'm pretty proud of this place and the whole reason I bought it and keep pouring money and energy into it is the very strong belief in the value.

Also wanted to point out that we do very, very little moderation here for such an active site.  That says a lot about the people here and the quality of the discussion.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> There will always be some who try to characterize the discussions here as negative or argumentative or even conspiracy theory but I defy you to find an open forum where people are more respectful and knowledgeable.
> 
> And, if not for OKCTalk where would you go to discuss anything in OKC? There are a few Facebook groups but they are a completely different animal.  I could point to many, many examples of where discussion and information sharing here has absolutely benefited the community.
> 
> When you run an open forum you are going to get people criticizing, as that is the nature of on-line discourse.  But I'm pretty proud of this place and the whole reason I bought it and keep pouring money and energy into it is the very strong belief in the value.
> 
> Also wanted to point out that we do very, very little moderation here for such an active site.  That says a lot about the people here and the quality of the discussion.


Rock on Pete. Rock On.

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## baralheia

> Most of it comes from persons who only casually/occasionally read the the site, or have a lack of understanding of how discussion forums work.
> [...]
> OK, enough about all of this. You asked, I answered. Hopefully that counts as me defending OKCTalk in a public forum. Feel free to go back to bashing the newspaper...


I shortened the quote for sake of the flow of the forum, but thank you - that was an incredibly thorough and thoughtful response. By trade I'm an IT nerd, so I understand how forums can be - and it simply hadn't occurred to me that some people would have the sorts of reactions you've described. That's disappointing that some think this way, but - upon reflection - understandable, for all of the reasons you've mentioned. I really appreciate your insights and contributions to OKCTalk, both online and off!

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## catcherinthewry

Lackmeyer wrote an article today about the Business Improvement District. What I found interesting was that his subheader today was "Commentary". I doubt that the change is a coincidence, but even if it is, I appreciate the clarification.

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## chuck5815

Lol. Lackmyer is such a joke. He couldn’t even bring himself to answer questions about Costco in his Friday chat.

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## stile99

> Lol. Lackmyer is such a joke. He couldn’t even bring himself to answer questions about Costco in his Friday chat.


Three weeks after Costco has opened: "I've heard rumors Costco might come to OKC, but nothing substantial".

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## soonermike81

Didn’t get my Sunday paper this morning and it’s irritating as hell. Called it in and I’m sure they’ll be by in an hour or two, but so many times I just get lazy and don’t even bother. And I’ll just come here, like I am now, to catch up on happenings in OKC. I’m sure half of you guys reading this will wonder what the hell im doing, still getting the newspaper. But I’m old school in so many ways. And there’s something nostalgic about sitting around reading a physical newspaper on Sunday mornings, while my wife or the kids are looking at the ads.

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## 5alive

^^^

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## catcherinthewry

> Didn’t get my Sunday paper this morning and it’s irritating as hell. Called it in and I’m sure they’ll be by in an hour or two, but so many times I just get lazy and don’t even bother. And I’ll just come here, like I am now, to catch up on happenings in OKC. I’m sure half of you guys reading this will wonder what the hell im doing, still getting the newspaper. But I’m old school in so many ways. And there’s something nostalgic about sitting around reading a physical newspaper on Sunday mornings, while my wife or the kids are looking at the ads.


Why don't you read the Print Replica online when that happens?

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## soonermike81

> Why don't you read the Print Replica online when that happens?


It’s not the same

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## Jersey Boss

> Why don't you read the Print Replica online when that happens?


That's one of those " If you have to ask you wouldn't get it anyway"

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## catcherinthewry

I assume you are talking about the tactile feel of the paper and being able to physically turn the pages. I get the paper because I like the puzzles, but when I'm on the road I read the print replica which is exactly like the print version save for the coupons and survive just fine.

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## Jeepnokc

> I assume you are talking about the tactile feel of the paper and being able to physically turn the pages. I get the paper because I like the puzzles, but when I'm on the road I read the print replica which is exactly like the print version save for the coupons and survive just fine.


I like feeling the paper also.  When we moved out to near the airport though....delivery just sucked.  Wouldn't get paper 1/3 of the time or wouldn't get till 9-10 am after leaving for work.  Finally gave up and went to reading paper on line.  I was taking the WSJ, D.O, and the NY times on Sunday.

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## Pete

I used to love to read the Sunday LA Times but I realized what an incredible waste it was...  Briefly reading it then throwing it in the recycling bin.

Not just the killing of trees but the energy used to print it, deliver it and then recycle it.

I stopped taking it just as digital became an option and I've never looked back.

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## Pete

This really needs to stop.  How on earth can the powers that be at the Oklahoman continue this incredibly unethical practice?

The irony is that Brianna Bailey -- who never ripped off OKCTalk's work while at the Journal Record but immediately and continuously did so while at the Oklahoman -- now works for The Frontier, which is now getting the same treatment.

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## stjohn

And then there's the press release for a Confederate Flag Rally they published earlier this week.

https://twitter.com/zachnash/status/965963329008230401

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## mugofbeer

Sorry, I didn't find a better place to put this.

Another example of simply inexcusable lack of attention to work :

The DO web page has been running this at least today - - "OU football: Lincoln Riley says domestic abusers 'won't work here" - - underneath is a large photo of offensive lineman Dru Samia with his arms crossed and a scowl on his face.  I wouldn't be real happy with this if I were Dru  .............

You have to click on his pic to see that he is up for Polynesian Player of the Year.

SMH

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## Pete

David Dishman -- the cub reporter the paper recently hired to cover retail news among other things -- is the latest blatant offender of stealing the work of OKCTalk, without any attribution.

In his brief career, he immediately started lifting stories from this site and in collaboration with more senior writers.

Yesterday he did the same with the VASA Fitness / Sears story.  I know this because the information has been out there for quite a while, and I finally got around to getting down there, taking some photos and doing a write-up.

Within hours of that story getting a lot of traction in social media, Dishman comes up with his story with absolutely zero new information.


It should be obvious to anyone paying attention that its very easy to write a story once someone else has done all the work; to reverse engineer once it has all been laid out for you.

There are even specific terms for covering a story after a rival has broken it; it's called 'matching' or 'following'.

Every single respectable journalistic concern has a policy that states when you match or follow the reporting of another, you provide proper credit.  And why wouldn't you?

That does not ever happen with the Oklahoman and they know damn well know they should -- they just chose not to.  Or in the case of the Classen Circle story, they grow a conscious for an hour or two, provide proper credit (which costs them nothing) then later remove it as if such a credit is akin to admitting to collasal failure.  And of course, all this is furthered by frequent attempts to completely discredit me and this site.

This practice is taught to people brought into the Oklahoman, of that I am sure.  Brianna Bailey never did it when she was at the Journal Record (we actually had a good working relationship when she was there) but immediately took it up during her brief stay at the Oklahoman.  Dishman started within his first couple of weeks and has done so repeatedly.  And it's no surprise, as that publication's most tenured members model that behavior, unabashadely.

Disturbingly, the Journal Record has started to do the same thing.


It's incredibly hypocritical of the major local news outlets to conduct themselves this way, while frequently touting the inclusive and collaborative nature of OKC's business community.  The truth is they aren't at all interested in quality journalism or getting essential information to the public, but are focused on protecting their territory at all costs, which includes direct violation of common journalistic ethics.

And ultimately, that is bad for OKC and the entire community.

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## jonny d

> David Dishman -- the cub reporter the paper recently hired to cover retail news among other things -- is the latest blatant offender of stealing the work of OKCTalk, without any attribution.
> 
> In his brief career, he immediately started lifting stories from this site and in collaboration with more senior writers.
> 
> Yesterday he did the same with the VASA Fitness / Sears story.  I know this because the information has been out there for quite a while, and I finally got around to getting down there, taking some photos and doing a write-up.
> 
> Within hours of that story getting a lot of traction in social media, Dishman comes up with his story with absolutely zero new information.
> 
> 
> ...


I saw that, and was floored at how blatant it was! He didn't even try to come up with any new information.

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## Pete

> I saw that, and was floored at how blatant it was! He didn't even try to come up with any new information.


I keep track of every time this happens, and it's quite a long list that has built up over the years.

It's clearly a specific business strategy the Oklahoman employs, and it's absolutely shameful.

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## jonny d

> I keep track of every time this happens, and it's quite a long list that has built up over the years.
> 
> It's clearly a specific business strategy the Oklahoman employs, and it's absolutely shameful.


IS there anything you can do to prevent it that isn't already being done (besides copyrights/trademarks/etc)? Just curious, since it happens almost weekly.

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## Pete

> IS there anything you can do to prevent it that isn't already being done (besides copyrights/trademarks/etc)? Just curious, since it happens almost weekly.


It's an ethical matter,not a legal one.

I will ultimately write in detail about all this, providing tons of examples and exactly how it works against the best interests of the community.

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## PaddyShack

I am pretty sure I saw a post on Twitter that used your photo, no credit or retweet. The photo was of the Red Andrews park and the skyline behind it.

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## Jim Kyle

> It's an ethical matter,not a legal one.
> 
> I will ultimately write in detail about all this, providing tons of examples and exactly how it works against the best interests of the community.


Back in old days, when Edward King Gaylord was still at the helm, the OPubCo policy was quite clear. City Editor Chan Guffey laid it out to me in so many words, one day, when I was arguing that coverage of a neighborhood protest would be in the best interests of the city: "It's not news until we print it."

But Mister G had a clever approach to slanting the coverage: selective reporting. We didn't have to resort to copying other media's research -- because no other medium existed in those days. TV had not discovered the beauties of "investigative" jouirnalism, still relying on folk like Ed Murrow and Frank McGee. No competitive newspaper was able to survive in this closed market.

Things change, but the more they change, the more they remain the same. Mr. G finally expired, and his descendants (like many such) failed to share his skill. They finally grew tired of the game, and sold out. The new owner has found that reducing staff and resources can only go so far -- and now urges us to pay $1.64 weekly for "responsible journalism" while giving us 16 pages instead of 64.

Keep on providing us a really responsible medium, Pete. The days of providing "news" with a multi-hour lead time are pretty much behind us. Let the copyists do their thing; just concentrate on staying out in front of them!

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## Pete

^

Thanks for that perspective, Jim.  And for the kind words.

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## TheTravellers

> I am pretty sure I saw a post on Twitter that used your photo, no credit or retweet. The photo was of the Red Andrews park and the skyline behind it.


That might be a legal issue, and not just an ethical one - doesn't copyright exist in photos by the photographer unless stated otherwise? May not know what I'm talking about, though. Not sure who on Twitter used it, could you get them to take it down or make them credit it to you, Pete?

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## Pete

> That might be a legal issue, and not just an ethical one - doesn't copyright exist in photos by the photographer unless stated otherwise? May not know what I'm talking about, though. Not sure who on Twitter used it, could you get them to take it down or make them credit it to you, Pete?


I believe this was from someone who is just a follower of the site and didn't mean harm.

I usually just drop people in note in those situations and say, "Thanks for your interest!  In the future, please credit us on anything you share from the site or that we post in social media."  Honestly, most people in these situations mean well.

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## Mr. Blue Sky

I knew this practice goes on at The Oklahoman regarding their recycling of content from this site and presenting it as their own. However, I think only now am I realizing how often this occurs. For what it's worth, Pete, since your move from LA to Oklahoma City, and seeing your hard work and commitment to OKCTalk, I have a whole new respect for you and see you as a trailblazer and a force for nothing but good in our fair city. The Oklahoman is embarrassing and I'm disappointed to read that the Journal Record is also resorting to the same practices.

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## PaddyShack

So what other news outlets are there for local OK news that doesn't do this? Are any of them in print or only online?

----------


## Pete

> I knew this practice goes on at The Oklahoman regarding their recycling of content from this site and presenting it as their own. However, I think only now am I realizing how often this occurs. For what it's worth, Pete, since your move from LA to Oklahoma City, and seeing your hard work and commitment to OKCTalk, I have a whole new respect for you and see you as a trailblazer and a force for nothing but good in our fair city. The Oklahoman is embarrassing and I'm disappointed to read that the Journal Record is also resorting to the same practices.


Thank you for saying this.

Of course, I come at this from a somewhat fresh perspective and don't assume to know things without researching them.  This lifting of information without credit always seemed very wrong to me but still, I have interviewed journalism ethics experts, the chair of the ethics board for the Society of Professional Journalists, and writers and editors from Reuters, Bloomberg and others.  They all have said, unequivocally, that this practice without proper attribution is highly unethical and have forwarded handbooks for other publications that specifically spell out the proper way to provide credit and when it is to be done.


There is another highly unethical journalistic approach used heavily by the Oklahoman that has a specific name in the industry: Access Journalism.  Basically, it's becoming overly friendly with the subjects you report on and having them feed you information and entire stories with the obvious understanding things will be reported a certain way and no tough questions will be asked.  (Otherwise, why feed this to a particular person or publication at all?)  This is unethical on both sides, including the source of the story.  The Alliance and staff from the city of OKC have even engaged in this practice which is wrong on many levels.

When I first started to report, I would often get flat denials.  Then I would point out I was holding their permit/plans/info in my hand.  Then it would turn to, "Well, we aren't ready for that to be out."  And I finally started telling people, "Look, I have the story.  I'm just giving you the opportunity to comment.  I'm not seeking your permission."  The fact so many people were floored by that illustrates the way news sources are used to controlling what actually gets reported.

Still, I will hold a story at times.  But never due to a personal relationship or favor granting; more because there may be a delicate issue or some other intervening factor.

I've also had several developers tell me, "I/We don't like OKCTalk because we can't control it."  Which, of course, implies that they are used to controlling the media to some extent.


Someone who is also new to OKC but in a different field summed all this up in a way that I greatly appreciated.  He said that people say they want change and growth and progressiveness but that most people in power are very threatened by those things when they actually start to happen.  And that new people with fresh approaches that don't conform to the old way represent a particular threat, and often the wagons get circled against you by the Old Guard.

I think all that is very true and I've had to let go of negative comments and judgments.  In the end, I have to do what I know to be right, without compromise.  And regardless of ethics experts and industry standards, what is right is usually very obvious.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> That might be a legal issue, and not just an ethical one - doesn't copyright exist in photos by the photographer unless stated otherwise? May not know what I'm talking about, though. Not sure who on Twitter used it, could you get them to take it down or make them credit it to you, Pete?


The abdomination known as the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, DMCA for short, does in fact provide remedy for such actions, in the form of a "takedown notice" which requires that the contested material be removed from public view until the offender proves ownership. It's seldom used, though, except to harass opponents...

----------


## Jim Kyle

"Access journalism" is as old as the printed page, and isn't by any means limited to OKC. When you have some spare time and need some amusement, Google for "Brann the Iconoclast" and read about the editor down in Waco during the 19th century who took on the Powers That Were.

And if you can find anyone who really knew Walter M. Harrison, the late lamented Skipper, who was an OPubCo insider until he went to war and came back with a radically new moral compass, ask about him. There's a great biography hidden there if anyone cares to pursue it.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> So what other news outlets are there for local OK news that doesn't do this? Are any of them in print or only online?


Well, there's the Oklahoma Gazette, and also Friday -- several have started, but few live long much less prosper.

----------


## Jeepnokc

The DO continues to change over pages to new format.  They have changed Lackmeyers OKCCentral now and you can't find anything.  Complete worthless page now as you have to just scroll and scroll and hope they posted it.  

Foes anyone know if yesterdays live chat transcript is posted anywhere and what the link is?

----------


## Mr. Blue Sky

> The DO continues to change over pages to new format.  They have changed Lackmeyers OKCCentral now and you can't find anything.  Complete worthless page now as you have to just scroll and scroll and hope they posted it.  
> 
> Foes anyone know if yesterdays live chat transcript is posted anywhere and what the link is?


https://newsok.com/article/5606739/o...teve-lackmeyer
Took forever to load the full page.

That site is a mess.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> https://newsok.com/article/5606739/o...teve-lackmeyer
> Took forever to load the full page.
> 
> That site is a mess.


yep.  thanks

----------


## Pete



----------


## Pete

^

2 sections?

News and sports?

----------


## stile99

>

----------


## OkiePoke

How do you cut the newspaper's content and increase subscriptions?

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> ^
> 
> 2 sections?
> 
> News and sports?


No no no. Sports and Coupons.

----------


## soonermike81

> No no no. Sports and Coupons.


Seriously, we only subscribe so my wife can get the coupons. I’ll read the paper on Sunday every once in a while

----------


## Pete

> How do you cut the newspaper's content and increase subscriptions?


They will likely put more content behind a paywall.

That has already increased in the last year or so.

----------


## CloudDeckMedia



----------


## HangryHippo

> 


lulz.  What a crock.  We've asked people to "keep stories short and to the point?" - what the hell did they think they were doing previously?

----------


## Pete

^

They were commanded by their new owner to do these things, no doubt to keep printing costs down.

----------


## Richard at Remax

Does this mean. 

There are no more.

Stories written by Jenni Carlson.

In this format?

----------


## stlokc

"Keep stories short and to the point?" That's so frustrating. 

I understand and appreciate effective editing, but "short" for the sake of "short" is ... just ... sad. There are a million places on the internet one can get paragraph-sized capsules of stories. Traditional print journalism works best when it is more "long form," when it can delve into context, quoting multiple sources etc. 

Every few weeks, I purchase a Sunday New York Times exactly so that I can read in-depth reporting that I don't get anywhere else. That's what newspapers, at their best, are most equipped to handle.

----------


## HangryHippo

> "Keep stories short and to the point?" That's so frustrating. 
> 
> I understand and appreciate effective editing, but "short" for the sake of "short" is ... just ... sad. There are a million places on the internet one can get paragraph-sized capsules of stories. Traditional print journalism works best when it is more "long form," when it can delve into context, quoting multiple sources etc. 
> 
> Every few weeks, I purchase a Sunday New York Times exactly so that I can read in-depth reporting that I don't get anywhere else. That's what newspapers, at their best, are most equipped to handle.


This.

----------


## PaddyShack

So what happens if subscriptions drop, will The Oklahoman die or will they continue with syndicated news and what not?

----------


## Pete

They won't die, at least anytime soon.

There was a recent report that with these changes they will be profitable to GateHouse who just bought them.

----------


## stlokc

If you watch Fox, or CNN, or MSNBC, and pay attention, you'll notice that they all do a more-or-less adequate job of covering "events" - hurricanes, school shootings, even political rallies - although they all have their slant on that last one. 

But if you listen, the real meaty stuff, the "hard" stuff - like corruption, Bob Mueller, tax analyses, you know, things that require more than ten seconds of explanation - even on TV, they almost all start with "The New York Times is reporting..." Or "From the Washington Post today..." or "According to the Wall Street Journal..."

Why is that? 

It's because print journalism doesn't have to be "sexy", it doesn't have to have quippy sound bites, it doesn't HAVE to be written to a third grade level (although it sometimes is). Even in this dramatically scaled back age, the really strong newspapers drive a lot of the coverage. 

The Oklahoman should be providing that role for Oklahoma City. I'm glad Pete has taken over the Gazette, I'm thrilled with the potential there but even he would say, I think, that OKC needs a very strong daily newspaper. 

I'm increasingly of the opinion that daily papers in the future, if they are to survive, are going to have to be non-profit entities.

----------


## Pete

The Gazette is committed to feature-length stories and to the print medium.

In fact, we are growing.

Lots more coming from us in the very near future.  Very bullish on quality, unbiased journalism in OKC.

----------


## stlokc

I'm very happy to read that, Pete!




> The Gazette is committed to feature-length stories and to the print medium.
> 
> In fact, we are growing.
> 
> Lots more coming from us in the very near future.  Very bullish on quality, unbiased journalism in OKC.

----------


## Rover

This shouldn't surprise anyone. USA Today outsells the NY Times.  This has been a trend for a long time.  People don't want to pay for a large daily paper and certainly aren't willing to pay for well researched extensive and expensive articles.  And, if the articles don't prove their already existing notions, they will just find an online alternative that gives them the "truth" they want.  

Face it, as a society now we favor an inch deep and a mile wide over an inch wide and a mile deep.  Now we may even be favoring and inch wide and an inch deep. 

And, for anything that is over 15 minutes old, it is old news.  Our attention span is short, short, short.  We post short notes on sites.  We don't even email anymore...we text.  We take our "news" from tweets where we allow anyone to claim "truth" .... the writer is the fact checker and the accused gets to write their own "news".

----------


## stlokc

> This shouldn't surprise anyone. USA Today outsells the NY Times.  This has been a trend for a long time.  People don't want to pay for a large daily paper and certainly aren't willing to pay for well researched extensive and expensive articles.  And, if the articles don't prove their already existing notions, they will just find an online alternative that gives them the "truth" they want.  
> 
> Face it, as a society now we favor an inch deep and a mile wide over an inch wide and a mile deep.  Now we may even be favoring and inch wide and an inch deep. 
> 
> And, for anything that is over 15 minutes old, it is old news.  Our attention span is short, short, short.  We post short notes on sites.  We don't even email anymore...we text.  We take our "news" from tweets where we allow anyone to claim "truth" .... the writer is the fact checker and the accused gets to write their own "news".




Rover...you might be more cynical than I am, but I don't doubt that there's truth in what you've just written. The thing is: every time I have this conversation with somebody, whomever it is, we recognize that reality that you've expressed but we all lament it. Every one. And I believe my friends and family and colleagues when they say that they really miss a lot of the old hard-hitting journalism and they struggle to find ways to counteract what has happened with our press. 

So I think there is a market out there, even if it's smallish compared to the "lowest common denominator" folks, that crave a more sophisticated type of news.

----------


## Pete

Keep in mind the Oklahoman has done precious little investigative journalism, so this recent change will have little impact in that regard.

----------


## Rover

> Rover...you might be more cynical than I am, but I don't doubt that there's truth in what you've just written. The thing is: every time I have this conversation with somebody, whomever it is, we recognize that reality that you've expressed but we all lament it. Every one. And I believe my friends and family and colleagues when they say that they really miss a lot of the old hard-hitting journalism and they struggle to find ways to counteract what has happened with our press. 
> 
> So I think there is a market out there, even if it's smallish compared to the "lowest common denominator" folks, that crave a more sophisticated type of news.


There is a market, but doing good journalistic work across the broad spectrum papers have traditionally covered is a VERY expensive endeavor, on top of which printing and distribution is increasingly expensive. It was a mass medium that is being reduced to specialty niches.  Those arent newspapers, they are newsletters, or free entertainment type papers.

----------


## Rover

> Rover...you might be more cynical than I am, but I don't doubt that there's truth in what you've just written. The thing is: every time I have this conversation with somebody, whomever it is, we recognize that reality that you've expressed but we all lament it. Every one. And I believe my friends and family and colleagues when they say that they really miss a lot of the old hard-hitting journalism and they struggle to find ways to counteract what has happened with our press. 
> 
> So I think there is a market out there, even if it's smallish compared to the "lowest common denominator" folks, that crave a more sophisticated type of news.


Oh, and newspapers always got the money to operate from paid advertising.  So, the more narrow the niche, and the less verified users of definable demographics lowers rates and ad inches.  This is why they spiral into mediocrity or disappear.

----------


## mugofbeer

All the best to the future of the Gazette.

----------


## okatty

Interesting to see changes that are already being made - for example, Sports/Business/Classifieds are all in one section now rather than 3 separate ones.

----------


## Pete

It will be interesting to see how the Sunday paper looks with this new mandate.

----------


## TheTravellers

https://www.thelostogle.com/2019/02/...om-front-page/

----------


## stile99

What, they finally realize even divine intervention isn't going to save them?

----------


## Rover

> All the best to the future of the Gazette.


With all due respect, the Gazette is great for what it is, but it doesnt take the place of a comprehensive local newspaper. They are apples and oranges.  If Gazette tried to cover everything like a true local paper they would have the same financial issues.

----------


## mugofbeer

> With all due respect, the Gazette is great for what it is, but it doesnt take the place of a comprehensive local newspaper. They are apples and oranges.  If Gazette tried to cover everything like a true local paper they would have the same financial issues.


It certainly doesn't.   The city needs both and it will continue to be a struggle for the Oklahoman as long as people refuse to pay for it.  Denver is down to 1 paper and it may have fewer employees than the Oklahoman.

----------


## soonermike81

I’m one of 18 remaining print subscribers! Sweet!

----------


## Pete

The genie is out of the bottle.  The time to adopt subscription models was 20 years ago; now it's too late.

Also, the signs were on the wall for newspapers before the internet, but like any monopoly (American cars, cable TV come to mind) they were too busy basking in hubris and gouging customers and advertisers with 30-40% profit margins to care.

And like those other businesses, papers made just wheelbarrels full of money but those profits were almost all taken out by already rich owners instead of reivesting it in the business.

History has shown that when you take advantage, customers will run as soon as they get another option.  The Oklahoman and most other papers have decades of bad will working against them and most still have no idea how to put together a successful business model.

And with a local paper like the Oklahoman, why would you pay for information that you can get for free elsewhere?  They aren't the NY Times, breaking new investigative stories.  You can find better local, business and development news here, better sports coverage -- even HS sports -- all over the web.  

BTW, their reporters are out there begging for subscritions to support 'local journlism', yet they are no more local than an Applebees:  Out-of-state owner (now a ruthless NY hedge fund)and the CEO extracted $54 million for himself last year while slashing newsrooms.  They employ some local employess, but a good number are out of state (for the Oklahoman: copy editors, graphics, many admin functions; and all the profits are all shipped out) just like a chain restaurant.  Should we all be only eating at Chili's because we like some of the waiters?  I'd rather go to Cheever's and it doesn't hurt that their owner lives here and continually reinvests in our community.


As a side note, I'm very, very bullish on the Gazette.  We expect to make a very good profit this year after inheriting a situation similar to the Oklahoman only we don't charge our readers for anything; never have and never will.

Print is not dying, there are just lots of papers doing it wrong.

----------


## sgt. pepper

> With all due respect, the Gazette is great for what it is, but it doesn’t take the place of a comprehensive local newspaper. They are apples and oranges.  If Gazette tried to cover everything like a true local paper they would have the same financial issues.


So Pete, are you disagreeing with Rovers statement here?

----------


## Pete

> So Pete, are you disagreeing with Rovers statement here?


It's hard to make a daily paper work but it's also hard to make an alternative weekly work; both have been failing at about the same rate.

What I would say is that some will fail simply because they are poorly managed, not just because they are in a challenging business.

Almost all forms of business have seen radical change over the last several decades but there are still plenty in almost every category doing well and some very well.

Change brings opportunity and the truly successful seize it rather than complain and place blame.

----------


## David

This is the Times, so it's a tad unrealistic to compare their situation to local OKC papers, but I thought this was an interesting report:

The New York Times Co. Reports $709 Million in Digital Revenue for 2018

----------


## hfry

https://www.thelostogle.com/2019/02/...-hot-dog-cart/
I'm guessing Lackmeyer won't be using his twitter to promote her hot dog business anytime soon. The Hot dog lady also claims that KOCO shot a video with her yesterday to air last night but other bricktown people got involved and ran a puff piece instead. Not a good look for any side here imo.

----------


## Rover

> It's hard to make a daily paper work but it's also hard to make an alternative weekly work; both have been failing at about the same rate.
> 
> What I would say is that some will fail simply because they are poorly managed, not just because they are in a challenging business.
> 
> Almost all forms of business have seen radical change over the last several decades but there are still plenty in almost every category doing well and some very well.
> 
> Change brings opportunity and the truly successful seize it rather than complain and place blame.


So, you dont think there is more of a true challenge to run a comprehensive daily newspaper with point by point delivery than a weekly entertainment or limited scope weekly delivered to a controlled set of locations?

I love what you do here and am excited about the direction of the Gazette under your leadership, but to ignore the challenges papers like the Oklahoman, etc have is a bit disingenuous in my humble opinion.

----------


## Pete

> Not a good look for any side here imo.


One side is the lead business reporter for the state's largest news organization; the other is a lady that runs a late-night hotdog cart.


This sort of crazy has been going on for years and it says an awful lot about the Oklahoman that they continue to allow it, especially under the name of a section of their publication they frequently promote.

----------


## Pete

> So, you don’t think there is more of a true challenge to run a comprehensive daily newspaper with point by point delivery than a weekly entertainment or limited scope weekly delivered to a controlled set of locations?
> 
> I love what you do here and am excited about the direction of the Gazette under your leadership, but to ignore the challenges papers like the Oklahoman, etc have is a bit disingenuous in my humble opinion.


I'm not ignoring their challenges at all, and I understand them very well.

In fact, I'm kicking myself for not making a bid for the Oklahoman (had no idea they were open to a sale) because I believe there is still a lot of upside to quality print journalism strongly supplmented with new media content.

And more importantly, I've come to believe that although they have some good people, they generally do a poor job and many of their business practices are actually outright bad for our community.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I'm about 60, so I want to read a print replica. Read it on my iPad and take the paper version to work for customers to read in the lobby. 

I'm beginning to think that the Oklahoman is the sports section and Steve Lackmeyer. And Lackmeyer has become a little full of himself, IMO. As Berry Tramel nears my age he is turning into a grumpy old man. As good as he is as an OU football historian, he is terrible as an NBA commentator. To use an old church phrase-he has the head knowledge, but no heart knowledge.

I think the Oklahoman can be better, but sometimes the siege mentality takes over an industry and they can't recover.

----------


## mugofbeer

> I'm not ignoring their challenges at all, and I understand them very well.
> 
> In fact, I'm kicking myself for not making a bid for the Oklahoman (had no idea they were open to a sale) because I believe there is still a lot of upside to quality print journalism strongly supplmented with new media content.
> 
> And more importantly, I've come to believe that although they have some good people, they generally do a poor job and many of their business practices are actually outright bad for our community.


It would have to be a money pit at this point, though.  Also, backing some of what you have said in earlier posts, the Oklahoman gauged advertisers unless you were one of the few constant large scale advertisers.  My employer used to be a massive national newspaper advertiser.  I asked the Sr. VP in charge of why OKC was the largest city in the country without a branch office of the company, he said that plainly, its the newspaper.  At that time, 20 years ago, the Oklahoman had the highest add rates, per capita, in the country.  My Dad used to be a good friend of the Gaylords until I finally convinced him that they and their paper were badly damaging the city, business was avoiding coming here, they were greedy and gauging advertisers.  The paper was far too right wing, far too much religion, far too tolerable of goons in the legislature.  I'm not sure if you had bought it, you could save it without a huge amount of cash to burn up front.

----------


## Pete

^

Another example of gouging...  Things like classified ads and obituaries.

My mom passed away in the late '80s and I was absolutely shocked how much the Oklahoman charged for an obit.  But what was I to do?  Her friends had to know about her death and service and there was no other option in town.  I don't remember the price just that it seemed completely unreasonable (especially at a time when you are dealing with funeral arrangments and big medical bills) but like any other monopoly, I had no choice.  I never forgot it and that's exactly the type of bad will -- and there are a thousand more examples -- that people carried around with them and then lept at the earliest opportunity to stop supporting them.


But here is something much more dramatic to consider...

Oklahoma has more valuable natural resources per capita (lots of oil and gas and less than 4 million people) than almost any state yet we are near the bottom of every measure of well-being:  poverty level, education, health stats, incarceration, smoking, on and on.

The question is, WHY??

Why on earth is Oklahoma down there with the likes of Mississippi and West Virginia, which are both extreme outliers due to their unique histories and economies?  Why is our closest neighbor and another state with the same natural resources, Texas, lightyears ahead in almost every way?

You could argue very strongly that the Oklahoman drove almost all the policies and attitudes that have led what should be a wealthy state to be a poor, mismanaged one.  They have always been the largest driving force behind politics and policies.  And they are still doing it.  They are and always have been deeply in bed with the weathly elite and oil barons, promoting their desires at the mercy of the state in general.

I'm not saying the Oklahoman and Gaylords are 100% responsible for all the state's problems, but blood is absolutely on their hands.

----------


## Scott5114

> This is the Times, so it's a tad unrealistic to compare their situation to local OKC papers, but I thought this was an interesting report:
> 
> The New York Times Co. Reports $709 Million in Digital Revenue for 2018


The New York Times is making a lot of money right now because of its reputation for investigative journalism. Same goes for the Washington Post—I've got a WaPo subscription, despite having been to DC exactly once. They tend to be one of the ones that break political stories, and I like being able to quickly check if whatever rumor going around is bogus or not by seeing what they have to say about it. 

If there were a paper in OKC digging around doing the same sorts of investigative journalism at the state level, I would hope it would be successful and would subscribe (especially if it was something like the $4/month I pay for WaPo) because at the moment I'm lacking a good source on state-level coverage. That's why I was pretty excited when Pete bought the Gazette, given his knack for putting on the investigative-reporter hat himself in the past. Not sure if that's the direction he's hoping to take the Gazette, but it's definitely an opening the Oklahoman has left for someone else to fill.

----------


## Laramie

Pete, how far away are we from a Dallas Morning News with an Oklahoma edition?

----------


## CCOKC

I used to subscribe to the DMN years ago when they delivered to the OKC Metro area. As I get older my time perception is faultier but it was at least 10 years ago when that stopped.

----------


## okatty

We subscribe to the NYT Digital and also get the  weekend hard copy delivery (Fri-Sun).  I can read the Oklahoman in about 10 minutes.    You can spend some time getting through the full version of the NYT.   The Sunday NYT next to the Sunday Oklahoman is quite a contrast.

----------


## Rover

> We subscribe to the NYT Digital and also get the  weekend hard copy delivery (Fri-Sun).  I can read the Oklahoman in about 10 minutes.    You can spend some time getting through the full version of the NYT.   The Sunday NYT next to the Sunday Oklahoman is quite a contrast.


Lol. New York City is quite a contrast to OKC.   20 million people vs 1.4 million people .... their paper should be bigger and better..... a LOT better.

----------


## okatty

^It should, but the Oklahoman shouldn’t be as pitiful as it is.

----------


## Bellaboo

After 40 years of continual service from the Oklahoman, we finally decided to discontinue. Yes, just about everything is online or on the air so no issue, but I quit because of the price. They were wanting $ 299.00 for an annual subscription. My brother in law said he pays $ 80.00 for his annual. My mother pays $12.00 for Wednesday/Sunday only. I see the adds for $1.54 per week.
I was told to wait 3 months and then subscribe for the lower rate ?  Anyone else have these same issues with the paper ?

----------


## stile99

Well that's a very dangerous game for them to play. That gives people three months to come to the conclusion they never really needed the paper in the first place.

----------


## Zuplar

I just pay the $9.99 for online only.

----------


## okatty

> After 40 years of continual service from the Oklahoman, we finally decided to discontinue. Yes, just about everything is online or on the air so no issue, but I quit because of the price. They were wanting $ 299.00 for an annual subscription. My brother in law said he pays $ 80.00 for his annual. My mother pays $12.00 for Wednesday/Sunday only. I see the adds for $1.54 per week.
> I was told to wait 3 months and then subscribe for the lower rate ?  Anyone else have these same issues with the paper ?


We pay about $160 a year, so better than you had but twice what your brother is paying.

----------


## Rover

I pay $50 every six months for Wed and Sun paper. It gives me access to the electronic.

----------


## citywokchinesefood

The online version of the Oklahoman to me is worth between $2-5/month depending on the content they put out. Currently I put its value a lot closer to $2 than $5. They just do not offer a good product. I can not justify spending $10 a month for online due to the atrocious quality of the paper.

----------


## dankrutka

I'd pay $5 a month just for Ben Felder's work. He's a very skilled journalist.

----------


## TheTravellers

> I'd pay $5 a month just for Ben Felder's work. He's a very skilled journalist.


He's really good, it was such a shame when he left the Gazette for the Joklahoman.

----------


## Pete

> He's really good, it was such a shame when he left the Gazette for the Joklahoman.


He took a job in between with the Foundation for OKC Public Schools.

But yes, Ben is outstanding.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> He took a job in between with the Foundation for OKC Public Schools.
> 
> But yes, Ben is outstanding.


Ben Felder, Richard Mize, and Jack Money are the only voices I make a point of reading in there.  Jaclyn Cosgrove was great but now she has moved on to bigger and better things at the LA Times. 

Who else am I missing?

----------


## TheTravellers

> Ben Felder, Richard Mize, and Jack Money are the only voices I make a point of reading in there.  Jaclyn Cosgrove was great but now she has moved on to bigger and better things at the LA Times. 
> 
> Who else am I missing?


Even though he's kind of a [insert unkindly euphemism of your choice here], Lackmeyer does have good info in his Friday online chats, but I don't read many of his actual articles.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> Even though he's kind of a [insert unkindly euphemism of your choice here], Lackmeyer does have good info in his Friday online chats, but I don't read many of his actual articles.


I appreciate having Lackmeyer in our community, even if his reporting can be lazy (at best). He is a good presence on twitter and occasionally raises the awareness of certain issues.

----------


## Pete

> I appreciate having Lackmeyer in our community, even if his reporting can be lazy (at best). He is a good presence on twitter and occasionally raises the awareness of certain issues.


Such as fighting with a hotdog vendor?  Countless other unhinged screeds.

I stopped following him on social media a long time ago.

Frankly, his behavior there is frequently an embarrassment to not only himself and his employer, but since he is a prominent business reporter (his Twitter handle is that of his branded work on the Oklahoman) it also reflects badly on our entire community.

----------


## DoctorTaco

But to my original point: Richard Mize is underappreciated. He doesn't do a ton in terms of reporting, but he at least can write well. 

Jack Money write well and can report a story in a comprehensible way, even techniical matter such as induced seismicity article from last week.

Ben Felder, as discussed, is wonderful.

But beyond that...William Crumm has upped his game, but he has upped it from such a low floor that it is still nothing to brag about. Willert feels like he's phoning it in. The business desk mostly reprints PR (as discussed elsewhere). Dear god don't get me started on Tramel. 

I can't even seem to think of anyone else who works there.

----------


## 5alive

From Sunday's *Business Insider*...
Local newspaper giant GateHouse Media has quietly been laying off reporters and photographers across its publications, according to reports, journalists' testimony online, and sources close to the layoffs.

GateHouse, which says it owns 145 daily newspapers, 325 community publications, and over than 555 local websites in 37 US states, seemingly focused cuts on photo departments and local sports coverage.

----------


## Pete

^

I believe there was another recent round of layoffs at the Oklahoman, including graphics personnel and some admin functions.

I'm not even sure how many people are left there now.


As an aside, what GateHouse does is basically centralizes a ton of functions, like layout, copy editing, digital platforms, etc.  It seems all that is left locally are the remaining reporters.

What that means is that there is virtually no way someone else could buy them in the future because all you would have is a bunch of reporters with no infrastructure.  There has been conjecture that once the hedge fund wrings out the last bit of profit, they will discard the husk but by then it would be almost impossible for a local group to buy the remains because there is no real operation.

I contrast that with what I bought at the Gazette.  We do everything in house other than printing the weekly paper, so there was a lot to work with from Day 1.  We have also made the decision not to outsource functions because you lose a tremendous amount of creative control.

----------


## dankrutka

> Dear god don't get me started on Tramel. 
> 
> I can't even seem to think of anyone else who works there.


I haven't read Tramel much lately, but I always appreciated his work in the past. He's more of an independent thinker than others, IMHO. But all the recent Thunder beat writers work hard. Currently, I think Erik Horne and Maddie Lee work hard at their beat.

----------


## Quicker

I’m an unapologetic subscriber to newsok. I really enjoy reading their sports writers, have always been a fan of Steves and enjoy all the local coverage... No, it’s never gonna be what it once was but there would be a huge void in OKC without it that would be very difficult to replace...

----------


## Richard at Remax

I can appreciate Mize writing. However he writes too many generalized fluff pieces on the real estate industry. I am here to tell you that it is not all gravy in the metro. Many areas are struggling to sell homes. People are losing a lot of money on selling homes that are only a few years old.

----------


## Pete

BTW, even though I am a frequent critic, I would never try to dissuade anyone from reading it.

However, they are not some sort of public trust.  They are a flawed business with their own agendas and have been taking advantage of the community for decades.

Now, they want to play the 'greater good' card which is ironic and transparent, especially given the way they have worked against OKCTalk and other local news outlets.  They are far more interested in protecting their own jobs than having legitimate concern for good local journalism.  I'd have much more respect for them if they were just honest.

----------


## chuck5815

> I can appreciate Mize writing. However he writes too many generalized fluff pieces on the real estate industry. I am here to tell you that it is not all gravy in the metro. Many areas are struggling to sell homes. People are losing a lot of money on selling homes that are only a few years old.


Yep. Plenty of folks who bought new construction in Edmond at or around $300K in 2014-15 are now trying to sell into a market that supports pricing closer to $250-260K.

----------


## Rover

> Yep. Plenty of folks who bought new construction in Edmond at or around $300K in 2014-15 are now trying to sell into a market that supports pricing closer to $250-260K.


What zip codes are you speaking of because many of the Edmond areas are among the highest listing, sales price, and average $/ft of the metro.  I know it is fashionable to bash Edmond, but it has been comparatively strong, especially given all the new inventory there.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

^^^ Im curious about this as well. Im in Edmond right now as all my family lives here and Nichols hills and both of those places seem to have had home prices steadily increase.

----------


## chuck5815

> What zip codes are you speaking of because many of the Edmond areas are among the highest listing, sales price, and average $/ft of the metro.  I know it is fashionable to bash Edmond, but it has been comparatively strong, especially given all the new inventory there.


Here's a few examples: 

https://ariisp1.oklahomacounty.org/A...pertyID=329580
https://ariisp1.oklahomacounty.org/A...pertyID=333832
https://ariisp1.oklahomacounty.org/A...pertyID=333814

----------


## Rover

> Here's a few examples: 
> 
> https://ariisp1.oklahomacounty.org/A...pertyID=329580
> https://ariisp1.oklahomacounty.org/A...pertyID=333832
> https://ariisp1.oklahomacounty.org/A...pertyID=333814


And I can find many more that sold for more. Every area everywhere will have some houses that sell for less for lots of reasons. It doesnt define a market or sub-market.

----------


## TheTravellers

Just read this today in the print Gazette, did not know how low the Joklahoman has gone...

https://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/c...ry?oid=2872480

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Although I think the Oklahoman has declined terribly and dislike it as much as the next guy, I don't feel that the "Brand Insight" features are very misleading. Or maybe I've become super sensitive to all content in the paper so I assume they're advertorials from the start. I'm guessing anything that says "For the Oklahoman by...' or "Special to the Oklahoman" is provided content?

One thing Mr. Lang  mentioned in the last couple paragraphs was a headline from April 2018. I read it to mean that the GateHouse Media editors in Austin, Texas wrote it. Were the GateHouse people providing that service to the Oklahoman while Mr. Anschutz owned it?

----------


## TheTravellers

> Although I think the Oklahoman has declined terribly and dislike it as much as the next guy, I don't feel that the "Brand Insight" features are very misleading. Or maybe I've become super sensitive to all content in the paper so I assume they're advertorials from the start. I'm guessing anything that says "For the Oklahoman by...' or "Special to the Oklahoman" is provided content?
> 
> One thing Mr. Lang  mentioned in the last couple paragraphs was a headline from April 2018. I read it to mean that the GateHouse Media editors in Austin, Texas wrote it. Were the GateHouse people providing that service to the Oklahoman while Mr. Anschutz owned it?


Yes, they were (wife used to work there long ago, so we keep up with their nefarious doings).

https://www.thelostogle.com/2016/06/...s-own-layoffs/

----------


## Pete

> Although I think the Oklahoman has declined terribly and dislike it as much as the next guy, I don't feel that the "Brand Insight" features are very misleading. Or maybe I've become super sensitive to all content in the paper so I assume they're advertorials from the start. I'm guessing anything that says "For the Oklahoman by...' or "Special to the Oklahoman" is provided content?


You are more or less proving the point that it's hard to distiguish which content is paid for and which isn't.

Once a publication goes down that path (something OKCTalk and Gazette has never, ever done nor will we do as long as I am the owner and publisher) it calls into question every single thing they write.

Also, why paying for editorial content is a growing practice, it is no less unethical.  Financial distress is not an excuse to dispense with principles, especially while appealing for people to subsidize your work as if its a public trust.

----------


## turnpup

This practice bothered me from the beginning, especially as I've noticed that many of the products/services in the "articles" are aimed at our senior citizen population.

----------


## Pete

As I have mentioned elsewhere, TEEMCO paid the Oklahoman for editorial content at least once.  And that one article I can confirm (I have the invoices with all the detail) was written by the same person who was also covering them throughout this whole fraud mess.  Not surprisingly, their coverage was viewed then (and especially now with the recent conviction) as carrying the water for that mess of a company and their felonious CEO.

Let that settle in for a minute.

You can see the massive, inherent conflicts of interest.  How do you trust a publication that undertakes these practices?

A:  You can't and shouldn't and that's why the practice should be regarded with extreme contempt.

----------


## stick47

> As I have mentioned elsewhere, TEEMCO paid the Oklahoman for editorial content at least once.  And that one article I can confirm (I have the invoices with all the detail) was written by the same person who was also covering them throughout this whole fraud mess.  Not surprisingly, their coverage was viewed then (and especially now with the recent conviction) as carrying the water for that mess of a company and their felonious CEO.
> 
> Let that settle in for a minute.
> 
> You can see the massive, inherent conflicts of interest.  How do you trust a publication that undertakes these practices?
> 
> A:  You can't and shouldn't and that's why the practice should be regarded with extreme contempt.


Interesting. If I may ask, who was the owner of the Oklahoman at the time of this? If Gatehouse, could this all have been them just squeezing profit from the paper at every opportunity?

----------


## Pete

It was still Anschutz.

And the Oklahoman has been doing this sort of thing under 3 owners; first the Gaylords, then Anschutz and now GateHouse.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I think today's Oklahoman has hit a new, but typical, low.
 Top article is a made up suggestion of conflict of interest on state boards, that even says on page 8 that legislative leaders support the supposed conflicted member and it is required by state constitution that 2 people on state boards have to be industry professionals. 
Next is a 4 page advertorial for Rose State and other community colleges.
Then a story about expensive state legislature races.
The first story that was less than 2 weeks old was on page 7.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> It was still Anschutz.
> 
> And the Oklahoman has been doing this sort of thing under 3 owners; first the Gaylords, then Anschutz and now GateHouse.


The original Gaylord, Mister G to his associates, didn't permit such goings-on, even if anyone on the staff had been susceptible. This isn't to say that he was squeaky clean; he was just too careful to tolerate something so blatant and easily detected. In his time the coverage was always slanted, but by omission, not commission. "It isn't news until we print it" was the policy. Also policy was the practice of firing staff members just before they qualified for retirement, refusal of ads from ventures of which he did not approve (which earned the firm a permanent injunction, but not until it had run Scripps-Howard out of town), and maintaining an image of being investigative but never finding anything leading to the real power players of the city and state.

His son and grandchildren failed to inherit his canniness, which in turn led to the current situation and opened opportunities for you and others!

----------


## Pete

My understanding they are now down to about 200 employees.

They claimed 350 employees and the great economic impact that would have on downtown when they applied for and were given $1.5MM in TIF (taxpayer) money for their buildout.

I've heard they will soon be vacating one of their two floors in a consolidation move.

----------


## okatty

I got my renewal notice today (It says renewal due on Jan. 6th, 2019, but who's counting).   Cash price for 52 weeks is 187 plus a $6 processing fee.  I have been paying about $160.  When I called the number on the notice it went to an automated voice that said my wait time was in excess of 30 minutes.   Payment is to be mailed to Gateway Oklahoma in Dallas.   I'll probably just wait until they call me and see how long it continues to arrive in the driveway.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I got my renewal notice today (It says renewal due on Jan. 6th, 2019, but who's counting).   Cash price for 52 weeks is 187 plus a $6 processing fee.  I have been paying about $160.  When I called the number on the notice it went to an automated voice that said my wait time was in excess of 30 minutes.   Payment is to be mailed to Gateway Oklahoma in Dallas.   I'll probably just wait until they call me and see how long it continues to arrive in the driveway.


Mine continued for a month and a half. I'm not renewing for $ 299.00 like they want. I thought i'd get a call from them by now but have not.

----------


## okatty

^Dang...is the $299 paid monthly?  Mine listed a quarterly price of $67 which would be the highest possible option - and that is for 7 day service plus online.   Maybe I better hurry and pay the 193! Ha

----------


## Bellaboo

> ^Dang...is the $299 paid monthly?  Mine listed a quarterly price of $67 which would be the highest possible option - and that is for 7 day service plus online.   Maybe I better hurry and pay the 193! Ha


That's for an annual subscription. I'm not taking the paper if i can't find a reasonable price. Why do they want almost $ 300 when most others are paying less than $200 ?

----------


## soonerguru

Publishing guidelines are clear: no editorial staff should ever participate in an "advertorial" presentation, and the labeling of such should be clear to readers, i.e. "advertisement."

As a reader of magazines, I'm usually annoyed by this type of content but sometimes I find it valuable, such as in travel publications. Not every ad is effective with scantily clad models and one or two lines of copy. Advertorial content that is informative and credible can be a reader service, but its deployment should be clear to readers and presented in a design style that differs from the publication.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> Publishing guidelines are clear: no editorial staff should ever participate in an "advertorial" presentation, and the labeling of such should be clear to readers, i.e. "advertisement."
> 
> As a reader of magazines, I'm usually annoyed by this type of content but sometimes I find it valuable, such as in travel publications. Not every ad is effective with scantily clad models and one or two lines of copy. Advertorial content that is informative and credible can be a reader service, but its deployment should be clear to readers and presented in a design style that differs from the publication.


The problem, of course, is that these are guidelines, not legal requirements -- and by a strict reading of the First Amendment, no legal requirements can be set. We must trust to the honor of the owners, who over the years have demonstrated a total lack of same: Hearst, Pulitzer, et al come to mind.

----------


## okatty

Interesting new TV ad for Oklahoman that I just saw during Thunder broadcast.   Urges supporting local journalism to support democracy (in a nutshell).  Maybe it has been out and I just haven’t seen it before.

----------


## Pete

> Interesting new TV ad for Oklahoman that I just saw during Thunder broadcast.   Urges supporting local journalism to support democracy (in a nutshell).  Maybe it has been out and I just haven’t seen it before.


They've been running it for about a month.

----------


## stile99

If they started offering some local journalism, I would happily support it. Them first though.

----------


## Ward

My beef is the lousy home delivery.  

Their accuracy has gone to crap. Once or twice in every Two weeks they miss my delivery.  Now they tell me they have to mail me a replacement in the US Mail. I’m still waiting 8 days for one.   It’s a hassle to call them.

----------


## nighttrain12

I just got a renewal notice for home delivery of The Oklahoman in the mail today.   I subscribe to all 7 days and was a little perturbed earlier when they had raised the price to $7 per week (times 17 weeks).    The new renewal price for 13 weeks totals up to $214.50!   That's $16.50 a week!   You can also renew for 17, 34, and 52 weeks but the per week price is exactly the same.   The thing is, the number of pages of the newspaper has gone down in recent years.

----------


## chuck5815

> I just got a renewal notice for home delivery of The Oklahoman in the mail today.   I subscribe to all 7 days and was a little perturbed earlier when they had raised the price to $7 per week (times 17 weeks).    The new renewal price for 13 weeks totals up to $214.50!   That's $16.50 a week!   You can also renew for 17, 34, and 52 weeks but the per week price is exactly the same.   The thing is, the number of pages of the newspaper has gone down in recent years.


Well sure, but someone has to pay for Lackmeyer’s street car outings and Planet Fitness membership.

----------


## jedicurt

> I just got a renewal notice for home delivery of The Oklahoman in the mail today.   I subscribe to all 7 days and was a little perturbed earlier when they had raised the price to $7 per week (times 17 weeks).    The new renewal price for 13 weeks totals up to $214.50!   That's $16.50 a week!   You can also renew for 17, 34, and 52 weeks but the per week price is exactly the same.   The thing is, the number of pages of the newspaper has gone down in recent years.


and try to stop your subscription... they will hound you at least once a week for the next 2 years with phone calls to try and get you back...

----------


## Pete

They have added an entire section of non-local news.  This in addition to already using lots of wire reports in other sections.

I calculated that on Monday fully 62% of the articles in the Oklahoman were written by someone out of state.  This does not factor in the other contect such as comics, horoscope, puzzles, etc.  None of that is created here either.

The impact of Gatehouse Media -- which owns scores of papers nationwide -- continues to be felt.

----------


## Rover

So, I hope the Gazette steps up and becomes the great local newspaper we demand, with hard hitting investigative reporting, sports reporting, business reporting, legal notices, social activities and entertainment, and other localized reporting.  

I don't blame the newspapers that are failing all over the place.  I blame a public which wants information for free and then can't understand why it isn't in depth, unbiased and relevant.  The more we expect our news from Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and propaganda outlets, the less we should expect to have a real press.  We have demonized any true journalist whose stories don't fit our prejudiced beliefs.  We put gun ownership as a constitutional right on  a pedestal, but attack free press daily.  As they say, we will reap what we sow.

----------


## OKCretro

> I don't blame the newspapers that are failing all over the place.


Do you blame Blockbuster for failing? or Sears ?  

Are those failings the publics fault as well?

----------


## Rover

> This shouldn't surprise anyone. USA Today outsells the NY Times.  This has been a trend for a long time.  People don't want to pay for a large daily paper and certainly aren't willing to pay for well researched extensive and expensive articles.  And, if the articles don't prove their already existing notions, they will just find an online alternative that gives them the "truth" they want.  
> 
> Face it, as a society now we favor an inch deep and a mile wide over an inch wide and a mile deep.  Now we may even be favoring and inch wide and an inch deep. 
> 
> And, for anything that is over 15 minutes old, it is old news.  Our attention span is short, short, short.  We post short notes on sites.  We don't even email anymore...we text.  We take our "news" from tweets where we allow anyone to claim "truth" .... the writer is the fact checker and the accused gets to write their own "news".





> Do you blame Blockbuster for failing? or Sears ?  
> 
> Are those failings the publics fault as well?


So totally apples to oranges.  If Blockbuster failed because people started watching only free 5 minute porn clips online, then yeah. People still buy, rent, and watch full feature films but the delivery system changed.  The real apples to apples would be if no real quality films can be profitably made because watching free you-tube home videos became cultural equivalents.

----------


## OKCretro

Bottom line : Both companies were not able to keep up with the changing demands of their customers / public at large.  

People went other places to find what they offered

----------


## Rover

> Bottom line : Both companies were not able to keep up with the changing demands of their customers / public at large.  
> 
> People went other places to find what they offered


Exactly. People SAY they want real news, but they favor tweets over facts...partisan propaganda over objective reporting .... free over paid.  So, journalism cant change to do that.  It would just be them certifying their own death. There is a difference between being murdered and committing suicide.

----------


## LordGerald

> and try to stop your subscription... they will hound you at least once a week for the next 2 years with phone calls to try and get you back...


That's exactly what happened to me.

----------


## mugofbeer

They can legally call you for 18 months after you stop service.  If you formally request they stop calling you but continue to call, their ethics or lack of, should be brought out public.  Any good company has do not call lists.

----------


## nighttrain12

I was looking around their website before calling them and saw NEW subscriptions for 7 days a week plus digital (website) are $19.50 per MONTH.   That averages out to $4.50 per WEEK for new subscriptions compared to $16.50 per WEEK for renewals.  That's just a ridiculous disparity in prices.

----------


## Swake

For comparison:

I pay $4.50 a week for digital only access to the Tulsa World including a daily PDF of the full paper. 
Digital +7 days a week delivery would be $43.45
Wednesday, Friday, Sunday plus Digital would be $34.67
Wednesday, Sunday plus Digital would be $21.67

New subscriber prices are much lower. I get flyers sometimes and they have door to door sales people but I don't recall the exact prices.

----------


## nighttrain12

You said digital plus 7 day delivery of the Tulsa World is $43.45, over what time frame.

----------


## Swake

> You said digital plus 7 day delivery of the Tulsa World is $43.45, over what time frame.


Sorry, monthly.

Also, I now see I typed I pay $4.50 a week for digital access, it's $4.50 a month.

----------


## nighttrain12

The Oklahoman:   Daily is $2, Sunday is $3.50.     It says at the bottom of page 2, Digital is $9.99 monthly.    They list $17.00 a week for 7 day newspaper delivery.    It looks like I will be switching to digital only.

----------


## rjstone208

I cancelled my subscription this morning because of delivery issues.  Only got two deliveries this last week.  The rest I had to call and register a complaint.  Yesterday I didn't get a paper even though the phone rep assured me that a paper would be delivered and that my complaint would be elevated to the district and field managers.  So this morning, no paper.   I've been a mail or home delivery subscriber for about fifty years including all of my overseas and non-local assignments during an Army career.  Even in Vietnam I still got it.  Seems like their days are numbered.  So I give up.

----------


## okatty

^These same delivery issues are over in our area as well.  In terms of delivery service we have had excellent service over the years.   But, the last 3 weeks have been a disaster.  Some days no paper at all.  Other days we get it mid-morning.   We along with other neighbors have called and were told "We just cant find reliable delivery people."  It's almost like they are asking you to cancel.    Unfortunately I may have to join in your decision after a lot of years as a subscriber. :Lame:

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I'm starting to wonder if it isn't part of their Grand Plan: Wean us off daily delivery by  becoming later in the day and more sporadic with their print deliveries? My Oklahoman was delivered at 10:30 on Saturday, 12:45 Sunday, and not delivered as of 9:45 today (Having a Nest camera allows me to be this specific).  This has made me aware that I don't really need a paper copy anymore. I read the print replica on my tablet in the morning and would take the paper version to the shop for a lobby copy. Not many people bother to read it there anymore.

Think I will just go to online only.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

After 2 weeks of sporadic delivery, I went to internet only. This made me realize that daily newspapers are akin to post WW 2 passenger rail service-a money loser with no way forward, yet their old customer base refuses to admit their inefficiency

----------


## Quicker

I was a former subscriber and was called the other day and offered home delivery and online access for $43 for 6 months. I told them I’d do that deal but really just wanted the online access and didn’t want home delivery...they replied that online only was $10 a month. So now I pick up the paper in the driveway and toss it in the trash...smh

----------


## catcherinthewry

I haven't gotten an email for a link to their digital version today. Does anyone else have this problem?

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I did not get my email link today. however, I always click on the icon on my iPad, so I did not notice the email issue until now.

----------


## catcherinthewry

I was able to use my iPad app as well. I just prefer to use my lap top. These people can't even do digital right. :Fighting25:

----------


## cindycat

Earlier this week they changed from newok.com to oklahoman.com. That's when my link quit coming, too. My REALLY SERIOUS problem now is that I can't look at the comics that used to be in my Favorites section. At the top of the comics page in the print edition is a note that says we can get nearly 65 more comics at oklahoman.com/comics. So far I'm getting exactly zero.

----------


## stick47

I gave DOK the Bird when they said Todd The DInosaur was no longer in production so searched and found Comics Kingdom. Everything the DOK had and more is on there. 
https://www.comicskingdom.com/todd-the-dinosaur

----------


## Mr. Blue Sky

https://oklahoman.com/entertainment/comics

Is this any better? It links to off-site comics as well. They can surely get the comics(!) right?

----------


## Richard at Remax

My dad got his renewal letter. I think he is writing "is this a joke?" and sending it back to them as we speak. "Almost 50% increase for half the paper content. I've been a subscriber for 30+ years!", he says.

----------


## LordGerald

> My dad got his renewal letter. I think he is writing "is this a joke?" and sending it back to them as we speak. "Almost 50% increase for half the paper content. I've been a subscriber for 30+ years!", he says.


What is a "paper statement fee?"

----------


## PaddyShack

> My dad got his renewal letter. I think he is writing "is this a joke?" and sending it back to them as we speak. "Almost 50% increase for half the paper content. I've been a subscriber for 30+ years!", he says.


Also I notice it says "Up to X weeks..." Does this mean you might not get that many??

----------


## Jeepnokc

Anybody else having issue with getting today's print replica?  Mine will only pull up yesterdays.

----------


## cindycat

> Anybody else having issue with getting today's print replica?  Mine will only pull up yesterdays.


Me, too. Our print paper hasn't arrived yet, either.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Me, too. Our print paper hasn't arrived yet, either.


Print replica appears to be up now (845 am)

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Darn, mine hasn’t updated yet. 9:08

----------


## catcherinthewry

I had the same issue.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Mine updated about 9:15. I almost think they are updating by hand.

----------


## okatty

I got no paper Friday or Saturday (delivery) which has been an ongoing issue, and had same issues as noted above on print replica today.    I was stacking dead tree limbs by the curb about 830 when the delivery person pulled up tossing papers - I asked if she was our normal delivery person and said “you don’t have a normal delivery person” and drove off.     :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

Our paper arrived at 6:02 this morning (thanks, Ring doorbell!) and the app is working. A friend's app wasn't working earlier in the week but what problem he experience was resolved.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

This whole business through the last couple months of no delivery of the print edition for days on end; automated phone system saying they are closed, when it is 9 AM and message says they are open until 11 or whatnot; electronic edition not arriving until 9:15, has made me very cynical towards the newspaper industry. Publisher Kelly Fry has another editorial on Page 2 telling us how important their work is and asking us to support local journalism. Fine and dandy, but if I don't have her product in the timely manner her industry has trained us to expect for centuries, then what good is it? I don't care about high minded pronouncements about how important they are when they are incompetent about their core directive: timely delivery. I can't read it if I don't have it! 

Because they have become so inept in their attempts to deliver the product, I have began to think they are equally unreliable and incompetent in their reporting and editorial opinions.  Local print journalism is starting to look like that old guy in the bar who knows everything (and won't hesitate to say so) yet can't keep a job for more than 2 weeks. 

"You Have One Job" is a popular social media saying for a reason: Remember the base reason you exist-timely.

----------


## Pete

^

In that Dyer Fry commentary, she blames the 'strong economy' for not being able to fill driver positions and thus the delivery problems with their hard copy.

1) You are not paying people properly if you can't get people to do the job
2) At the OK Gazette, we have no such problem
3) They can't even get their digital edition out early in the morning, so there are clearly much bigger issues than drivers

----------


## okatty

^We’ve historically had fantastic delivery from the Oklahoman.  I couldn’t get up early enough to beat the paper to the front porch and that was during strong economies, bad ones, etc.    That all changed for some reason about 60 days ago and it has been really unbelievable how bad it is.    Absolutely ridiculous to blame it on the “strong economy.”

----------


## Pete

It's absolutely due to cutbacks and outsourcing.

Even in their attempt to 'come clean' and apologize for the problems, they still can't be honest about what is going on there.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

A few months ago I bought a recently written book about Andy Griffith and Don Knotts. About $10 on my Amazon Kindle account. I was probably drunk and soaking in my bathtub. I’m guessing the author and publisher made as much as they would have in the BDalton Bookseller days.
My point is an anecdote from Don Knotts’ agent: Knotts had become very popular on radio and was working on more than one show more than once a day. His agent complained that television was killing Knotts career. Knotts just had to show up and talk on radio and nobody cared about how he looked and where he stood. He just had to read a piece of paper in an entertaining fashion. On TV, he had to do so much more, and couldn’t play as many parts. His money was going to dry up and the entertainment industry would cease to exist as we know it!

I can buy every Old Time Radio episode that exists for less than $50. Total. The Andy Griffith Show plays in prime time world wide every day on television. Smart people know how to adapt.

----------


## king183

The subscription prices are outrageous. My parents and I are letting our subscription lapse because of it. Previous 26 week subscription was $182 with access to more content. Now, "up to 17 weeks" is $261.

They're finished.

----------


## okatty

^I got 2-3 papers this week out of 7 days (zero at a decent hour to allow it to be read in the morning).  So at those rates, I’d be paying about $9 a paper. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Pete

Today, there are ZERO ads in the Oklahoman.

There is a tiny spot for a GateHouse-sponsored money giveaway and a big ad for an Oklahoman-sponsored all-city sports event.  You can be sure those are non-revenue ads.

They do have a few obituaries which they charge for (while claiming they are some sort of public service) and 1.5 pages of classifieds.

That's it.


I can tell you that as a print publication the goal is to be 60/40 content to ads; and in today's world, 50/50 is actually a show of strength.  The only reason you go less than 60/40 is because you can't sell ads.

THIS is why the paper has so little local content, why subscription rates have skyrocketed and why they can't even deliver their product properly.

----------


## stile99

Phase 1: Underpants! I mean outsource the printing to Tulsa.

Phase 2: ???

Phase 3: Profit!

----------


## oklip955

If this keeps up, I'm thinking they'll soon be only history.

----------


## onthestrip

Wow, these stories dont make things sound good for the Oklahoman. 

With their subscription rates, you think they could look to conservative tax policy they've championed over the years. If your rates are too high, people will go elsewhere. If you lower rates, you will actually bring in a broader base, therefore more revenue. Weird that this conservative paper cant realize that...

----------


## PhiAlpha

I just keep dreaming of a scenario where the Gazette buys the Oklahoman and Pete becomes Steve’s boss. Hilarity ensues.

----------


## Pete

> I just keep dreaming of a scenario where the Gazette buys the Oklahoman and Pete becomes Steve’s boss. Hilarity ensues.


I really, really regret not trying to get investors together and buy the Oklahoman before GateHouse.

And not just to smite my enemies but because I believe it could be much better and in turn a much bigger asset to OKC.  As it is, there is no longer an organization to buy.  Effectively, they are just a news bureau for a big conglomerate and almost all the paper's functions are no longer staffed or performed locally.  More than half of their content is not even written in OKC.

So, when GH has squeezed every bit of life out, all that will remain is a husk and nothing to rebuild.  Complete opposite of the Gazette where we do everything here, so there was a great foundation from which to build.  The only thing we outsource is printing the weekly paper.  Most issues, we don't even use freelancers.

----------


## Pete

The Oklahoman has implemented their paywalll:

----------


## jedicurt

well... then i guess i will now be getting all of my news from the Gazette...

----------


## Pete

> well... then i guess i will now be getting all of my news from the Gazette...


And OKCTalk!

----------


## jedicurt

> And OKCTalk!


nah... i just come here to argue... lol

----------


## GoOKC1991

I had two teenage girls come by my house yesterday trying to sell me on a subscription as part of a fundraiser to pay for college, they gave me a free sample. When I said no, they were visibly disappointed, asked for the sample back and left. Lol

----------


## Pete



----------


## soonerguru

I pay for their digital subscription and cannot get access to the site. I put in the PW correctly and it won’t let me in. I reset the PW and it won’t let me reset the PW and gain access. It’s debiting straight out of my account so I know their IT is hosed. And what is the deal with all of the three month old stories I still see on their homepage? Are they down to a staff of five now?

----------


## soonerguru

Example, I visited the site tonight (after realizing the only way to change my PW was to visit the desktop site), and saw this story on the homepage. NOTE THE DATE. This is still living in the main content area of the homepage.

----------


## PhiAlpha

Pete, just got a notification on loopnet that 14,000+ sq ft of additional space just became available on the second floor of their building. Looks like the Oklahoman’s second floor space. You should move the Gazette up there  :Wink: 
https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/100-...y-OK/14498849/

----------


## Pete

Ironically, the Journal Record also has a big chunk of space for sub-lease right across the street at Corporate Tower.

Both the JR and Oklahoman are now owned by GateHouse media.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Ironically, the Journal Record also has a big chunk of space for sub-lease right across the street at Corporate Tower.
> 
> Both the JR and Oklahoman are now owned by GateHouse media.


Do you think they'll be combined soon?

----------


## jn1780

> I really, really regret not trying to get investors together and buy the Oklahoman before GateHouse.


Give it a year or two, there may be another chance.  

The good thing about their payroll is that Okc talk members are a lot less likely to post news that the Oklahoma stole from okctalk.

----------


## Pete

Great article in this week's Gazette:

https://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/c...nt?oid=6349958

----------


## jonny d

Now they are limiting articles available without a subscription. Ultimate proof newspapers are dying. Kinda stinks, because I enjoy Dave Cathey.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Now they are limiting articles available without a subscription. Ultimate proof newspapers are dying. Kinda stinks, because I enjoy Dave Cathey.


Maybe get a subscription then.

----------


## jonny d

> Maybe get a subscription then.


I might. But it is just how they did it.

----------


## jn1780

> I might. But it is just how they did it.


If you find enough value in Dave Cathey, anyway.  Advertisers, apparently don't think The Oklahoma as a whole was value.

----------


## jn1780

> Great article in this week's Gazette:
> 
> https://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/c...nt?oid=6349958


Less than 100 employees at the Oklahoman. I'm sure there are some blog sites/youtube sites that approach that number.

----------


## Pete

I'm sure they'll refund the TIF money they received for job creation downtown.

----------


## checkthat

We haven't received our physical paper since April. They ask you to report online but the form is usually broken and they do nothing to correct the issue or follow up. Last year delivery stopped for a month or two and it had to be escalated several times before it finally started showing up again.

----------


## okatty

There was in insert in our paper last week with the same jibber-jabber.....finding new carrier contractors, be patient, support local journalism, etc.    This week we’ve been getting a paper - I think it comes about 10 AM but of course no one is home at that time to know for sure.   :Mad:

----------


## onthestrip

> I'm sure they'll refund the TIF money they received for job creation downtown.


The other great part is that we moved them from one part of okc to another. Nothing new was created here, outside the finish out of some office space. We basically paid them very well to move down the road.

----------


## Pete

> The other great part is that we moved them from one part of okc to another. Nothing new was created here, outside the finish out of some office space. We basically paid them very well to move down the road.


And at that time, they were owned by one of the world's richest men who had just pocketed $74 million for selling their existing HQ.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> The other great part is that we moved them from one part of okc to another. Nothing new was created here, outside the finish out of some office space. We basically paid them very well to move down the road.


1.5 mil  to build out their office space i don't believe that TIF has been unsed in this way before or since

----------


## Pete

> 1.5 mil  to build out their office space i don't believe that TIF has been unsed in this way before or since


The money was for tenant finishes, new furniture, equipment and fixtures.

It was also totally out of proportion with other TIF awards, which generally fall between 5-9% of the total investment being made.

Not sure what the Oklahoman paid on their end but you can be sure it wasn't over $10M; probably less that $5M, which means this TIF award was more like 30%+.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> The money was for tenant finishes, new furniture, equipment and fixtures.
> 
> It was also totally out of proportion with other TIF awards, which generally fall between 5-9% of the total investment being made.
> 
> Not sure what the Oklahoman paid on their end but you can be sure it wasn't over $10M; probably less that $5M, which means this TIF award was more like 30%+.


right           can you think of any other instance where TIF was used in this way ??

----------


## Pete

> right           can you think of any other instance where TIF was used in this way ??


Nope.

----------


## stlokc

Let me start this post with a few caveats. 

First: I have not lived in OKC for a long time and so have not been a subscriber to the Oklahoman. Second: I have a number of problems with that paper, with respect to many of their editorials and the quality and depth (or lack thereof) of their news coverage. Even when it was at it's most robust it was not a very good newspaper. Third: I can't defend or speak much about their use of TIF money; it seems inappropriate to me (although I know the city of St. Louis would sacrifice small children to get a couple of hundred jobs downtown, so take that for what it's worth).

But I have to say that this thread feels like an awful lot of "piling on." Some people seem borderline giddy to revel in that paper's misfortune. I think what's happened is a tragedy. And it is not at all unique to OKC. The same exact thing is happening in St. Louis. We all know why; daily newspapers started giving away their content with the rise of the internet, they conditioned an entire generation to think the news is free. Loss of subscriptions = Loss of advertising. Loss of revenue = layoffs. Layoffs = a spiraling down of what quality was there. Short attention spans mean people are fine with getting news on Facebook or Twitter. We are becoming a less informed citizenry, actually a dumber citizenry. It's frightening. 

When I read "Boomtown" by Sam Anderson, he wrote somewhere (maybe in the acknowledgements, maybe online) that he was grateful to the Oklahoman. Without the archived store of knowledge that they have/had, a book like his would not have been possible. I've thought about this before: daily newspapers are really the "diaries" of their cities. When the day comes that there are no more daily papers, who will be writing our history? 

I visit OKC Talk multiple times a day. I love it. What Pete has built here is nothing short of remarkable. The forums are great and the news stories are great. This site often breaks news with respect to city development. But what he's not doing is the reporting of the mundane, the high school sports, the murders, scandals, the minutiae of city life. This is not his fault, let me emphasize that again, I love OKC Talk, but this site is not set up in a way to do that. Neither is the Gazette, I don't think. That's not the point of why they are supposed to exist. 

Anyway, I understand why the Oklahoman is charging for content now. They should have been doing that for 20 years. Maybe it would have helped. Maybe not. But I'm in a nostalgic mood, and even though I'm not that old, I feel something very valuable slipping away and I don't like it.

----------


## Rover

Stk okc - very well said.

Dont know why so many on here get so distressed about losing an old building but so excited to see daily local newspapers go away.  Local papers have been a community cornerstone.  

Looking forward to the Gazette covering the weddings, obits, local sporting events, and all the other things that happen in our community.  Local journalism isnt just about the big stories, but about the little stories that make community.

----------


## Pete

^

Keep in mind there are a lot of ways news can be covered outside a printed daily paper.

I get the nostalgia associated with the Oklahoman; I feel it too.

But their conflicts of interest and agendas have done so much harm to this city in state it is literally impossible to inventory.  And it still goes on every single day.  Virtually ever singe business story, for example, is highly shaded.


If they were to completely implode the news would still be covered, just by different outlets and in different ways.  And I could make a very strong argument that apart from the loss of prestige associated with a printed daily, OKC and the state would be better off.

----------


## Pete

> Looking forward to the Gazette covering the weddings, obits, local sporting events, and all the other things that happen in our community.


The Oklahoman charges for weddings and obits.  The don't 'cover' them, they are paid placements.

As for sports, there are plenty of different and better outlets for even local sports, and we are considering adding sports back to the Gazette as well as other areas of local importance.

----------


## TheTravellers

> ...
> Don’t know why so many on here get so distressed about losing an old building but so excited to see daily local newspapers go away.  Local papers have been a community cornerstone.  ...


Not "daily local newspapers", just The Oklahoman, and it's for many reasons.  These include dubious journalism ethics, horrible working conditions (wife used to work there and I've heard stories), not-worth-the-money-they-charge, their editorial stances, front-page prayers, "winning" the worst newspaper in the nation, and other things like that.  If they were a decent paper, I (and most likely others) would be mourning them if they go under, but they're not, and it'll suck if the good journalists that are left there are out of a job, but I won't be shedding a tear if the newspaper as an entity dies.

----------


## Rover

> The Oklahoman charges for weddings and obits.  The don't 'cover' them, they are paid placements.
> 
> As for sports, there are plenty of different and better outlets for even local sports, and we are considering adding sports back to the Gazette as well as other areas of local importance.


Good. Looking forward to your investment in making the Gazette a complete local paper.  Daily, I hope.

----------


## Pete

There has been a lot of praised heaped on the Miami Herald for their extensive reporting on the Epstein case that has helped lead to a federal indictment.  And then praise for 'local papers'.

But great reporting doesn't have to come from a daily newspaper.

In fact, in the really big stories that come out of OKC, the Oklahoman is not doing their job, they are doing the community a great disservice.

Chesapeake is the biggest example.  They continued to pump out that company's press release propaganda while Rome was burning.  Finally, Reuters came to town and blew the lid off of things which resulted in McClendon being ousted and the company actually being saved, rather than headed straight for oblivion.

They also carried the water for TEEMCO in an absurd faction, which allowed them to keep committing fraud.

Both those companies were advertisers with the Oklahoman.


SOME local papers are worth saving.  And some need to go away as remnants of a monopoly that effectively squelched real local journalism.

There are plenty of people willing to step into the Oklahoman's void, and it's already been happening for about the last 5 years or so...  Despite the paper's attempts to crush competition, all the while claiming to champion 'local journalism'.

Side note:  less than half the content in the Oklahoman every day is written in Oklahoma.  And of course, all the editing and layout are not done here either and any profit goes out of state while they continue to lay off people based here.  I'm not even sure they qualify as a 'local paper' anymore.

----------


## Pete

> Good. Looking forward to your investment in making the Gazette a complete local paper.  Daily, I hope.


It's already daily.  Just not printed daily.

People confuse those two things.

----------


## stlokc

I appreciate that the Oklahoman has conflicts of interest and agendas. That is part of why I don't think they were ever a very good newspaper. There are many examples. Where I think they have been even worse is with failure to follow through, failure to get both sides of a story. Look, I'm not arguing their shortcomings. 

But I would say that even on their worst days, they get an awful lot of things right. If a political or corporate story is "slanted," well, there might be ten other news stories that are fine. (I'm not excusing their slant, but their work is Pulitzer Prize winning compared to what comes across my Facebook feed that the average person treats as "news.") I read an article in the Oklahoman today about the new administrator of the symphony who was from South Bend, Indiana and I sent it to a friend from South Bend. It's the run-of-the-mill stories that aren't slanted that are actually the Oklahoman's most valuable contribution to society. Sure, it's a black mark that their obits and wedding announcements are now "pay to play." Every paper is doing that for financial reasons and it's the era we're in. I don't like that, it means fewer people will participate and that community record will be gone as well. 

Yes, for the extremely motivated individual, there are probably places they can go and get school sports coverage. They can find blogs somewhere about their neighborhood... maybe. There are local outlets like NonDoc for harder hitting analysis. They can catch a snippet about a murder on the 10:00 news ... maybe. But there are still a lot of things that are going to get missed or done away with entirely.

----------


## Pete

> Yes, for the extremely motivated individual, there are probably places they can go and get school sports coverage. They can find blogs somewhere about their neighborhood... maybe. There are local outlets like NonDoc for harder hitting analysis. They can catch a snippet about a murder on the 10:00 news ... maybe. But there are still a lot of things that are going to get missed or done away with entirely.


I'm not saying it's all bad by any means.

Out of curiosity, if they were to go away what are the main things you worry about being missed?


(And BTW, they have been charging for their obits for as long as I can remember; not sure about weddings.)

----------


## stlokc

And Pete, I do hear you about Teemco and Chesapeake. OKC's "local" paper should have owned those stories.

----------


## Pete

> And Pete, I do hear you about Teemco and Chesapeake. OKC's "local" paper should have owned those stories.


There are many, many more.

And it's worse than not covering those aspects.  They actually serve as a PR outlet for far too many, directly promoting misleading and even completely false information.

Until I started covering local news I had no idea how much they just repacked press releases (which are frequently blatant propaganda) and/or how many times they use quotes or info from such a release without even identifying it as such.  Both are cardinal journalistic sins that I never realized before, and the same is true for the average reader.

----------


## stlokc

> I'm not saying it's all bad by any means.
> 
> Out of curiosity, if they were to go away what are the main things you worry about being missed?
> 
> 
> (And BTW, they have been charging for their obits for as long as I can remember; not sure about weddings.)



Pete,
I just went on the Oklahoman's web page and just in 10 seconds noticed these stories:

Opioid addiction (Looks like they are covering that trial daily)
18-Year-Old struck by vehicle and killed (item of general news interest, in what other medium will that be noted?)
Henry files injunction against OKCPS Board (again, where will that be covered?)
Photos of Red Brick Night in Guthrie (Human interest, people pictured will love seeing those pictures)
Names of Children drowned in state lakes (obviously a matter of public record)
High School "Super 30" football players (of interest to a whole lot of people who care about those things) 

I stopped looking because I need to write this post and then log off and get ready for a meeting. But when I see all those stories, what I think is, I personally may or may not miss any one of those in particular, in fact, I probably wouldn't read most of them myself. A couple of them I would. But every one of them has a constituency. Every one of those stories is important to a group of people. In the aggregate, they tell the story of what is going on across the city day-to-day. 

With respect, how many of those types of stories will the Gazette be covering?  I assume maybe a couple of them. It's that type of comprehensive history that I would miss more than any one of those stories in particular.

----------


## Rover

> I'm not saying it's all bad by any means.
> 
> Out of curiosity, if they were to go away what are the main things you worry about being missed?
> 
> 
> (And BTW, they have been charging for their obits for as long as I can remember; not sure about weddings.)


Dont they post births, deaths, marriages, etc. in not paid announcements too?

Frankly, all of journalism is suffering from the business side.  Just had this discussion with a recently retired journalist friend of mine. When he started was afforded following stories for day, weeks, month, and sometimes years until they got to the facts.  Lately, he had to turn out words to fill space.  This is with credible papers in other comparable cities where he worked for 40 years.  He was an award winning journalist for much of his career who retired feeling like real journalism is a dying art and that truth is something that people wont pay for.

----------


## Pete

> With respect, how many of those types of stories will the Gazette be covering?  I assume maybe a couple of them. It's that type of comprehensive history that I would miss more than any one of those stories in particular.


We could cover all that and more, especially in association with other local journalists... Including some that used to work for the Oklahoman.

----------


## stlokc

> We could cover all that and more, especially in association with other local journalists... Including some that used to work for the Oklahoman.


I'm happy to know that. Seriously, I am. 

The Gazette of my childhood (1980s-1990s) was probably 15 or 20 pages of news stories weekly - there was usually a big banner investigative story and then maybe 8-10 stories following, along with some columnists, I remember Pam Fleishaker because I knew her son. The remaining content consisted of stories and reviews of movies, plays, concerts, restaurants, clubs etc. I absolutely loved reading the Gazette because it helped verify that OKC is not at all a cultural desert. I even remember reading the small ads about loft apartments and the like and thinking that was cool. (I was kind of a nerdy kid).

What I would never until this moment have thought is that stories of hit-and-runs, trials and the like would have been in the Gazette's purview. Im not being facetious, I'm looking forward to picking up a Gazette the next time I come home.

----------


## Pete

People shouldn't look at this as a binary proposition where you either have the Okahoman or you have no decent local news coverage.  The only thing that we are almost certain to lose is the daily printed paper, but the number of people who even want that is shrinking dramatically.


I'm not saying the Gazette can or will cover it all but there is a way that can be accomplished which doesn't involve the Oklahoman as we know it.

There are a lot of very good journalists here that really care about this town and would thrive if they weren't under the corrupt umbrella/influence of the Oklahoman.  And they are indeed vastly corrupt, and I don't say that lightly.

I strongly believe that local journalism and the community as a whole would be better off without them.  The product in most industries improves greatly once a monopoly implodes, despite the fear (strongly stoked by the monopoly itself) and uncertainy that always proceeds such a radical shift.

----------


## soonerguru

Their digital subscription interface is FAIL. Still cannot access the articles I'm paying for. I even messaged them over the weekend and no one contacted me. I called customer service today at 3:45 and the person there who can allegedly solve my problem "had to go home early."

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Newspapers are not dying. They are changing. I'm about 60 now and I am among the last age group that clings (until last month) to the hard printed version. I still read the print replica on my pad because it is what my brain decodes the easiest. I think the printed version is the biggest money losing part of the business today. 

Papers haven't adjusted quickly enough to the concept that content is just as desirable, but the  delivery method has to change. That means electronic, obviously, and the legacy investment in the physical delivery method of paper made the changeover impossible. The strategy used by the Oklahoman currently of running off the dinosaur print holdouts through dismal service is the most offensive part of their product today, IMO.

The sports section is the best part of the Oklahoman, but they put it to bed about 9PM nowadays. The editorial fits what the print dinosaurs want, but they are trying to run them off with poor delivery. I watch the local news on TV and it seems to have most of the local news and crime stories.

I think we want the news they was we always read it, and don't want to think that it is still going to be out there somewhere, but we are going to have to change how we find it.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> (And BTW, they have been charging for their obits for as long as I can remember; not sure about weddings.)


Back in the late 50s, when I was the "rewrite man" for the Oklahoman, the obits were totally free. In fact, writing them was one of the primary duties of my job. Every day when I came to work at 4:30 PM I would call each of the funeral homes and get the list of new deaths for the day, with contact info for the families. I would then call each family, get the information, and write a two or three paragraph obit. When I moved up to the police beat in '58, my replacements on the rewrite desk were Bob Lee and Nick Foltz, both of whom went on to long careers in the newspaper business while I left it in '59 to become a tech writer. I have no idea when management decided to monetize the obits but they were still free when my father died in 1967.

----------


## Pete

^

Thanks Jim.

I know I had to pay what seemed to be a good chunk of money at a very bad time when my father passed in 1983.

That was long before the Internet bogeyman started eating their profits.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> ^
> 
> Thanks Jim.
> 
> I know I had to pay what seemed to be a good chunk of money at a very bad time when my father passed in 1983.
> 
> That was long before the Internet bogeyman started eating their profits.


My dad passed a couple of months ago and the obit was $300

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

Pete, I have to publish a notice a few times of year in a "publication of record," so locally I have used either the Oklahoman or the Journal Record. What is required to become a "publication of record," and do you have any thoughts about the Gazette becoming one?

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Boy, this is a time I wish my dad were still alive to explain it to me again. I recall a "publication of record" or "legal notice paper" is some kind of franchise awarded by the State of Oklahoma. I think they are assigned geographically, and can be sold or surrendered. But, I don't think any are being added. 

Going way back in time-he told me that is why J. Leland Gourley bought the North Star News, a weekly paper in the Village area, and converted it to Friday, because it was a legal paper and the guaranteed revenue was critical.

----------


## DowntownMan

Even Steves weekly chat is behind the paywall. I bet the participation will go will go down now. 

Good thing OKC talk already has all the information I need.

----------


## TheTravellers

> Even Steves weekly chat is behind the paywall. I bet the participation will go will go down now. 
> 
> Good thing OKC talk already has all the information I need.


Interesting, he said it would continue to be free.  I didn't get to last week's while it was live, but was able to read the transcript without paying later that day.  And as an addendum, I just got into it live using Opera, so it's not behind the paywall.

Edit:  Should've actually started reading the chat before I posted, his first post is this:

"Well, here we go. As some of you may have noticed, we now have a metered paywall at The Oklahoman as is common at pretty much every news site these days as subscriptions become more and more critical to supporting local journalism.

I was hoping and was under the impression the live chat would remain free from the paywall as reader participation is critical to its success.

Today that is not the case. I am hoping to get that changed, but I do not know how this will work out as I just learned about this chat being behind the paywall."

Not sure how I can read the full chat without paying, though.

----------


## checkthat

Might try incognito mode or a different browser for a fresh dose of free views. Incognito usually works on a soft paywall.

----------


## TheTravellers

> Might try incognito mode or a different browser for a fresh dose of free views. Incognito usually works on a soft paywall.


I can read it without paying or being a subscriber, sorry, my "Not sure..." comment wasn't completely clear.  I do have HTML5 autoplay disabled by an extension in Opera, but I'm not in incognito mode, but can still read it.  I always have to use IE or Opera to read it, Firefox and Chrome don't work and didn't before the paywall, but I've got all kinds of extensions blocking things on those.

----------


## Pete

I've made this point repeatedly, how the Oklahoman simply waits for other local journalists to do the real work of reporting, then swoops in a few days after they have been completely educated by another piece of journalsim and writes their own story without any attribution whatsoever.

When someone gets the story first, what comes after that is called 'matching' or 'following'.  Matching is merely covering the same story with the same information.  Following is using the original article as a starting point then adding substantial new information.  In both cases, the undebatable ethical (and common sense) practice is to properly attribute the original reporting and then provide a link to that story.

The Oklahoman refuses to do this.  In fact, here is a story by Steve Lackemeyer yesterday that was clearly prompted by work by Free Press OKC, and we provided that link in another thread.

When the article first came out on the Oklahoman digital platform, the story was attributed but did not contain any sort of link.

Within an hour, that attribution was removed forever, including the version that went into the paper.

This matters for many important reasons.  First, it's a complete abuse of their semi-monopoly; the writers there today have a platform and audience that is a remnant of the old newspaper monopolies that were generally built to squeeze everyone else out and protect their own interests.  And in doing so, it is an active attempt to trample anyone who dares get on their turf.

Secondly, it's just a terribly lousy thing to do.  Brent Dickerson (owner of Free Press) works very hard and then gets little credit when his work is directly responsible for educating the community, which is the entire goal of journalism.

None of this is in 'gray area'.  I've interviewed journalism ethics experts who told me this long after my own common sense and moral compass instinctively led me to this practice.  We posted the link to the Free Press article.  Hundreds and hundreds of Oklahoman articles are posted here with links and full attribution. 

At the same time, a search of this site will reveal that the Oklahoman screamed bloody murder if even a photo was shared here, even with attribution.  We have always complied with their requests.

Simply put:  The Oklahoman continues practices that are bad for this community.  They claim to champion 'local journalism' but they use their platform to trample it.  To attribute the proper source takes nothing away from the Oklahoman, but of course it denies proper credit and exposure to the person and entity truly responsible for the work.

People lament their inevitable demise but I'm very sure lots of other entities and people who deeply care about Oklahoma will easily fill any void, and to a large extent that has already happened.  And for the most part, those people are doing it for little or no compensation.

----------


## king183

The Oklahoman is struggling big time to create content, so it's no surprise they end up stealing from others who put in the work. Pete, you've pointed out how little original material they produce. Just look at the morning "newsletter" they send out every morning promoting the stories of the day to highlight this point.  I'm not exaggerating when I say nearly 50% of the stories they send out are MONTHS old and even more than that are a week or two old. They even keep posting articles about what Russell Westbrook needs to do to improve next season on the Thunder. Still! I've seen the same story on Raymond Felton at least a dozen times--and like Westbrook, he's not even on the team.

----------


## Pete

^

I need to point out that they have always stolen the work of others without proper credit.

They are now playing the 'save us because we are important to the community'  card and then simultaneously using their self-created predicament to justify any behavior.

They have always been predatory and at least in this sense, actively working against the common good of the community.  Ironically, now they need the community to save them while constantly trying to promote themselves as the champion of 'local journalism'.

They are as local as an Applebees.  A franchise of a massive corporation with profits and all major decisions going out of state, with some of their employees being in town.


Another point:  I own the Oklahoma Gazette (another legacy print publication) and we don't rip off the work of others, nor do we just take stories and full sections written out of state and use it to fill our publication.  We are truly locally owed and write every single word (well, not the horoscope) in our offices; 20+ employees all living here in the community and busting their tails every day to do things the right way.

I haven't mentioned this yet but we also recently bought our building at NW 36th & Shartel.  The Oklahoman, directly after selling their old HQ and pocketing $75M (!), received a $1.5M handout from taxpayers for their new offices.  And now, they are attempting to sublease a good chunk of that space that we all helped pay for. 

The Oklahoman is using their self-created woes as a crutch and to justify behavior that has been going on for decades.

----------


## OKC_Chipper

I mean this explanation is just insane...

----------


## Pete

It's not only insane it's completely wrong and he and the Oklahoman know it.  As I've said several times, this convoluted reasoning not only flies against the most basic common sense, there is no gray area in terms of journalistic ethics, at least for anyone not working for the Oklahoman.  The gymnastics to arrive at this rationalization are comical.


"Not trashing rivals or complaining".

Translation:  "I will continue to use the massive bully pulpit provided by my out of state employer to put down anyone who calls out my/our blatantly unethical practices that hurt our community".


Giving someone else credit costs you nothing, unless your own fragile ego can't tolerate it.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> The Oklahoman is struggling big time to create content.


They're not putting in enough effort to call it a big time struggle! Your list of stale material they continue to feature omits what I feel is the most blatant -- the story about weather researchers studying thunderstorms, which is at least a year old.

I fully expect to see an edition soon with 72-point headlines declaring "Oklahoma to Become 46th State"...

----------


## progressiveboy

If the DO keeps this up, my prediction is because they seem to lack integrity and ambition, this so called newspaper will become non-relevant and question it's survival within the next couple of years. Would hate to see good solid reporters and newspaper employees lose their jobs. I wonder what the Gaylord family thinks of their former newspaper now? Pretty pitiful situation.

----------


## Pete

^

Remember, the Gaylords pocketed huge profits for decades, then sold the business off and put that money in their pockets as well.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I have zero inside knowledge, but my observations after living in OKC 60 years are that E.K Gaylord was the newspaperman. E.K. was still going into the office daily until he died in the early 1970s at 100 years old-ish. E.L. Gaylord was already in his 70s when he ascended to the throne. Legend was that E.L. never had the love for the paper, and possibly resented it some. He did appreciate what it could do for him and his image in life. Something that always seemed to be shared by his descendants. 

E.L. Gaylord appeared to be a great businessman of the 70s-90s. He aggressively traded in all types of media in the 80s-90s. Grand Old Opry, Opryland, WSM Radio, The Nashville Network, Country Music Television. Word Records, Myrhh Records, Channel 39 in D/FW that was becoming a SuperStation, TV stations in Detroit, Houston and other cities, The San Antonio Spurs and the Nashville Predators are all entities that the Gaylords had, IIRC, significant to full ownership positions in during his era.   

I don't know if Mr. Gaylord kept OPUBCO out of loyalty, or an inability to get max value in a sale.

----------


## mugofbeer

Mostly correct.  E L, l don't think, resented to paper so much, but resented his Dad for not giving him full control of the business until EL was well into his 70s.  

IMO, Though he was an excellent businessman and he gave a lot to charity, he did an excellent job of sucking the economic life out of Oklahoma City.  Before  cable TV and the internet started killing off newspapers, the Oklahoman had the highest add charges per capita of any major newspaper in the country and adds were very important.  The rates were so high many small businesses couldn't afford them and many large businesses just refused to pay the rates and stayed out of OKC.

----------


## Pete

^

And he ruled the local news business with an iron fist.

Also held huge power over politics and policies and IMO was perhaps the primary reason our beloved state is near the very bottom in almost every health, education and quality of life measurement.  And why the mindset remains so entrenched and hard to change.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

^^^

Yep. I think he knew what he owned and wasn't afraid to use it. My memory suggests that one of the first sections of the widened Broadway extension that was completed is the area north and south of Britton Road, and within a week the Oklahoman had front page stories every day fixated on how everybody was speeding and it had too many lanes open. It was a high speed menace to public safety! It also was right outside Mr. Gaylord's office tower and he owned much of the real estate along that stretch.  My thought was that he and his old buddies were afraid to drive above 60 mph at their age, so that road scared the hell out of them. The police were working the stretch in force after a couple weeks of daily editorials demanding action and the road was narrowed to three lanes each side, down from the five it was built for. 

But, to his credit, I recall that the Oklahoman ran extensive coverage when one of their employees was killed. I remember thinking that some stories about murdered employees were getting daily front page coverage while they would have been stuck inside if it weren't for their employer. Not out of revenge, but a desire to make sure they got all the attention they deserved.

----------


## ctchandler

Without getting into his good or bad control of OPUBCO, did you know that Mr. Gaylord's phone number was listed in the white pages?  He felt that to be a good journalist he needed to be available.  Now I don't know who answered the phone but I heard that he often did.
C. T.

----------


## Pete

Gatehouse is taking over Gannett (110 papers including USA Today) but will be using the Gannett name for the combined organization.

https://www.poynter.org/business-wor...een-finalized/

----------


## Jim Kyle

> And he ruled the local news business with an iron fist.


As I've said many times before, here, semi-official policy when I spent four years there was "It's not news until we print it." That's a direct quote from my City Editor to me, when I was arguing in favor of covering a protest meeting. Of course I lost.

Never forget that Mr. G came to Oklahoma City, after the Cripple Creek gold rush cooled down, as the paid secretary of the chamber of commerce. He saw a good thing in a small struggling newspaper, bought into it, and built an empire -- but until his death at 103 he remained primarily a promoter. I think he truly believed that a rising tide lifts all boats, and built up OKC to increase the value of his own holdings -- but we must also keep in mind that he and Stanley Draper were the promoters of the Urban Renewal disaster and the destruction of our historic downtown.

----------


## Pete

^^

And this state (and particularly OKC) has ever since employed the "Rich Guys Know Best" approach to policymaking and governance.

And here we sit, dead last or close to it in every measurable quality of life, health and income category despite having a rich abundance of the most valuable of natural resources...  And continuing to double-down on all that.

----------


## catch22

You'd think Steve would be playing a little nicer, a little more fair, and put forth an effort to mend fences. There's a good chance he could be out of a job within the next 5 years as the Oklahoman continues to get sketchier and sketchier. He would probably be a good add for the Gazette if the Oklahoman tanked - however why would Pete hire him after all the crap talking and dishonest dealings he's done about Pete's work.

His ego is far too big.

----------


## Pete

Oklahoman offers job, it's accepted, then a month later it's rescinded.

Lead story right now on Poynter, a leading media news site:

https://www.poynter.org/business-wor...-even-started/

----------


## jonny d

> Oklahoman offers job, it's accepted, then a month later it's rescinded.
> 
> Lead story right now on Poynter, a leading media news site:
> 
> https://www.poynter.org/business-wor...-even-started/


Can't really blame it on The Oklahoman. If the owner wants something done (or frozen), it is done (or frozen). But yeah, not good for the guy who was this close to moving here. Horrid look for GateHouse Media.

----------


## dankrutka

This just goes to show that either Gatehouse or the Oklahoman are incompetent or negligent. Either way, they're intertwined. A business should *never* make an offer unless it's finances and hiring situation are in order. It's completely unacceptable. If my department or university did this to someone that I worked to hire, I would honestly consider leaving the organization.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Oklahoman offers job, it's accepted, then a month later it's rescinded.
> 
> Lead story right now on Poynter, a leading media news site:
> 
> https://www.poynter.org/business-wor...-even-started/


what is interesting is that Ben felder was retweeting that story

----------


## onthestrip

> Oklahoman offers job, it's accepted, then a month later it's rescinded.
> 
> Lead story right now on Poynter, a leading media news site:
> 
> https://www.poynter.org/business-wor...-even-started/


What a bad look. But thats kind of the norm for the Oklahoman now. Cant imagine what it feels like for the people who do work there, not knowing if they will get let go at anytime.

----------


## chuck5815

"Kelly Dyer Fry, publisher/editor and vice president of news at The Oklahoman, told me in an email, “Ellis is a talented young man and we wish him all the best. There is never an easy way to make difficult cost-saving decisions. *Trying to save local journalism can sadly break hearts*."

lol.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

^^^^

I think that self righteous attitude projected by KDF is the most frustrating thing about the newspaper business within the last 20 years. The industry as a whole has hidden behind some variation of that statement to justify...wait...not justify, rather DEMAND blind acceptance of any business decision they make. Regardless of how transparently stupid, self-serving, short sighted, greedy, corrupt or lazy; the industry will do everything but put on the dark sunglasses and proclaim "We're on a mission from God". 

The news business has never had more content and activity. The paper side has not adapted. I am offended that the paper side does not admit they chose not to adapt effectively for primarily financial reasons. I am especially offended when they claim "Trying to save local journalism" is the reason rather than saying "the numbers didn't add up", or "the fan base isn't big enough for the hire".   

"God's will" is the excuse that the Church can use and own. Newspapers have spent 20 years trying to wordsmith it into their own cover.

----------


## Pete

It's pure hubris, which has been the ultimate undoing for every monopoly and why there are none left.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> It's pure hubris, which has been the ultimate undoing for every monopoly and why there are none left.


Can't agree with you that there are none left, Pete. Murdoch is doing pretty well last I heard, and if Gatehouse takes over Gannett it will be close to a monopoly on the print side. In book publishing, there's Pearson. And in the computer industry, "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves" used to be the code-phrase for IBM and its would-be competitors...

The ogliarchy is still trying to take over, and return us to the days of the Robber Barons. Have you tried to get internet service in OKC lately while avoiding both AT&T and Cox? Or electric power from anyone other than OG&E?

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

Multiple tweets today mentioning that five Oklahoman reporters/photographers were fired today as part of a nationwide RIF at Gannett/Gatehouse. 

The industry is suffering greatly, and when one media source lays off staff, all are weaker for it, and the market is worse off for having fewer reporters covering the news. 

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for a discussion of local media.

----------


## Doug Loudenback

See https://www.poynter.org/business-wor...use-newsrooms/




> August 13, 2019 Tom Jones
> 
> Last week, GateHouse and Gannett announced their intent to merge and form the largest newspaper chain in the country, a consolidation designed to save money. When the move was announced, there was a fear among many in the industry that layoffs would follow.
> 
> GateHouse started making cuts this week at at least four papers, but it’s unknown if these cuts have anything to do with the potential merger or are more tied to disappointing quarterly results at New Media, which owns GateHouse. These layoffs come less than three months after GateHouse laid off several dozen journalists at newspapers all across the country.
> 
> One of the newsrooms hardest hit by the cuts was the Oklahoman in Oklahoma City, which parted ways with 14 employees, including five in the newsroom. That includes Ellis Williams, a sportswriter who accepted a job offer to join the Oklahoman only to have that offer withdrawn. Other layoffs included a photographer, a health reporter and two breaking news reporters, people close to the newsroom reported. When GateHouse bought the Oklahoman

----------


## Quicker

> See https://www.poynter.org/business-wor...use-newsrooms/


Great to hear from you, Doug... You and so many other amazing contributors aren’t around much anymore and are truly missed... Hope you’re doing well....

----------


## Doug Loudenback

Thanks, quicker, I am fine. I've tried to post a longer reply, expressing my view that the Oklahoman is a worthwhile, if flawed, part of our city's history, and worth preserving, but my longer replies have failed for reasons that I do not know. Perhaps later.

----------


## Jim Kyle

Good to see you here, Doug! One of these years I hope to get with you again face to face, but my mobility seems to have gotten up and went away...

----------


## Doug Loudenback

Hi, Jim! Good of you to say hello. I seem to recall that I borrowed something from you years ago but neglected to return. If you recollect, please let me know.

----------


## Doug Loudenback

I'll try again to post a more substantive comment about the Oklahoman. Before I do, full disclosure: I am a friend of Lackmeyer who several here like to bash. I am also appreciative of what Pete has done in bringing news to all of us here. I value both Steve and Pete a very great deal.

Back to topic. There are very few remnants of our city's history which span the time of 100-120 years, but the Oklahoman is one, if not the only one of such things. 

I do not defend the Oklahoman for the positions that it has taken. For example, its editorial and graphic positions before statehood were drastically worse than even Donald Trump, these days, concerning black citizens. The content was disgusting. But history is what history is.

A newspaper is the so-called 4th estate. The Oklahoman is our sole surviving representative. With all respect, neither this forum nor the Gazette have those credentials. Neither have

----------


## Doug Loudenback

I'll try again to post a more substantive comment about the Oklahoman. Before I do, full disclosure: I am a friend of Lackmeyer who several here like to bash. I am also appreciative of what Pete has done in bringing news to all of us here. I value both Steve and Pete a very great deal.

Back to topic. There are very few remnants of our city's history which span the time of 100-120 years, but the Oklahoman is one, if not the only one of such things. 

I do not defend the Oklahoman for the positions that it has taken. For example, its editorial and graphic positions before statehood were drastically worse than even Donald Trump, these days, concerning black citizens. The content was disgusting. But history is what history is.

A newspaper is the so-called 4th estate. The Oklahoman is our sole surviving representative. With all respect, neither this forum nor the Gazette have those credentials. Neither have

----------


## Doug Loudenback

Part of my post got trashed, for reasons I don't know. More later, perhaps.

----------


## OKC Guy

> I'll try again to post a more substantive comment about the Oklahoman. Before I do, full disclosure: I am a friend of Lackmeyer who several here like to bash. I am also appreciative of what Pete has done in bringing news to all of us here. I value both Steve and Pete a very great deal.
> 
> Back to topic. There are very few remnants of our city's history which span the time of 100-120 years, but the Oklahoman is one, if not the only one of such things. 
> 
> I do not defend the Oklahoman for the positions that it has taken. For example, its editorial and graphic positions before statehood were drastically worse than even Donald Trump, these days, concerning black citizens. The content was disgusting. But history is what history is.
> 
> A newspaper is the so-called 4th estate. The Oklahoman is our sole surviving representative. With all respect, neither this forum nor the Gazette have those credentials. Neither have


What?  Way to use (waste) this opportunity to make it political against Trump you just lost all credibility bringing politics/Trump in a post about the rag Oklahoman.  What in the heck doesTrump have to do with Oklahoman?  Did he run it into the ground?  

If not then then you should be banned for even suggesting Trump has anything to do with this non political topic.  Its always Orange man bad with left

----------


## HangryHippo

> What?  Way to use (waste) this opportunity to make it political against Trump you just lost all credibility bringing politics/Trump in a post about the rag Oklahoman.  What in the heck doesTrump have to do with Oklahoman?  Did he run it into the ground?  
> 
> If not then then you should be banned for even suggesting Trump has anything to do with this non political topic.  Its always Orange man bad with left


You should show Doug some respect. Hes been around here a long time and was a valued member long before you started contributing.

----------


## Rover

> What?  Way to use (waste) this opportunity to make it political against Trump you just lost all credibility bringing politics/Trump in a post about the rag Oklahoman.  What in the heck doesTrump have to do with Oklahoman?  Did he run it into the ground?  
> 
> If not then then you should be banned for even suggesting Trump has anything to do with this non political topic.  Its always Orange man bad with left


He didnt blame Trump. Just used Trumps far right white supremacy positions as a point of reference for what the Oklahoman used to be.  Just puts context to his observation.

----------


## OKC Guy

> You should show Doug some respect. He’s been around here a long time and was a valued member long before you started “contributing”.


What does that have to do with bringing politics/Trump into a thread about the Oklahoman?  1 million posts or 1 post, its politics.  

But I do see what you are saying, newish members are not welcome here and just like The Oklahoman with that attitude this place will need to be relabled as a leftist posting board where other viewpoints/posters are not welcome because of political beliefs.

I would think that you should base my post on the merits.  This topic is not in politics.  Its wrong.  If he can bash Trump in non pol I should be able to counter/defend/argue merits.   Move it to pol and no problems, then I can debate the merits of his post.  But I won’t do that here its not a pol topic

----------


## OKC Guy

> He didn’t blame Trump. Just used Trump’s far right white supremacy positions as a point of reference for what the Oklahoman used to be.  Just puts context to his observation.



Nope.  Pol on a non pol topic.  If he can bash I can defend right?  Yet I have not defended only pointed out this does not belong here.

To clarify, his attacks on POTUS are hearsay and opinion and have zero to do with topic.  If this was in politics then each side can debate his accusations.  But to bash POTUS in a non pol thread about The Oklahoman is uncalled for.  Put it in pol and let both sides debate his hearsay.  It does not belong here  and is toxic to even bring POTUS into discussion.

Hope that clarifies it

----------


## Rover

> Nope.  Pol on a non pol topic.  If he can bash I can defend right?  Yet I have not defended only pointed out this does not belong here.
> 
> To clarify, his attacks on POTUS are hearsay and opinion and have zero to do with topic.  If this was in politics then each side can debate his accusations.  But to bash POTUS in a non pol thread about The Oklahoman is uncalled for.  Put it in pol and let both sides debate his hearsay.  It does not belong here  and is toxic to even bring POTUS into discussion.
> 
> Hope that clarifies it


Yeah, we get it. You love Trump.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

----------


## Pete

> I do not defend the Oklahoman for the positions that it has taken. For example, its editorial and graphic positions before statehood were drastically worse than even Donald Trump, these days, concerning black citizens. The content was disgusting. But history is what history is.
> 
> A newspaper is the so-called 4th estate. The Oklahoman is our sole surviving representative. With all respect, neither this forum nor the Gazette have those credentials. Neither have


The Oklahoman has been driving policy and hand-picking politicians (and slandering those they oppose) in this state for decades and their editorial page is often still full of the same type of nonsense they have been publishing since the Gaylords were in charge.

I would make a strong argument that they have had a huge hand in instituting and perpetuating the policies that have kept Oklahoma at the very bottom of every measurable category regarding education, health and general quality of life, while their owners lined their pockets and those of their friends.

The business pages remain full of cronyism, pandering and distortion and never has and never will provide any watchdog service that is vital to the community.  In fact, they do the opposite by shamelessly publishing PR-driven 'stories' on behalf of the unscrupulous.  

Some things need to die and give way to a more evolved and enlightened approach.  It's happened in virtually every industry, especially when monopolies are too mired in hubris and greed to make needed change before it's too late.  And it's way too late for the Oklahoman.

----------


## Midtowner

> What?  Way to use (waste) this opportunity to make it political against Trump you just lost all credibility bringing politics/Trump in a post about the rag Oklahoman.  What in the heck doesTrump have to do with Oklahoman?  Did he run it into the ground?  
> 
> If not then then you should be banned for even suggesting Trump has anything to do with this non political topic.  Its always Orange man bad with left




Please stop with the whining. This is historical record stuff.

----------


## jerrywall

Out of curiosity, do you know the date from that paper? My eyes can't make it out.

----------


## OKC Guy

> Please stop with the whining. This is historical record stuff.


That has zero to do with sitting POTUS and accusations made.  My point is still that this thread belongs in politics.

For the record I do cancelled my sub years ago its a horrible newspaper.  But Trump has zero to do with this discussion and if he did it should be in pol board

----------


## Pete

Let's please move on...

----------


## Doug Loudenback

> Some things need to die and give way to a more evolved and enlightened approach.  It's happened in virtually every industry, especially when monopolies are too mired in hubris and greed to make needed change before it's too late.  And it's way too late for the Oklahoman.


It well may be too late for the Oklahoman, but not perhaps for the reasons you gave. I'm thinking that the new owner, GateHouse, may solve the problem. Consider this article in the Washington Post a few days ago: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...jUDXQOQHcP3pov




> Its a crisis that threatens American democracy. Local newspapers, despite all their flaws and limitations, have been a trusted  and necessary  source of information for citizens across the country.
> 
> When local news withers, bad things happen, studies show.
> 
> People vote less, and they vote in a more politically polarized way. Political corruption has more opportunity to flourish, unnoticed by the local watchdog. And municipal costs may rise.
> 
> More than 2,000 newspapers have gone out of business in the past 15 years, according to the University of North Carolinas Penny Muse Abernathy, the leading expert on so-called news deserts that result.
> 
> Most are weeklies, but many metro dailies are in real trouble, too. The Vindicator, in Youngstown, Ohio, will shut down this month, leaving a substantial city without a daily paper.
> ...


It doesn't take a genius to see the atrophy which has already occurred with the Oklahoman. It may not be very far in the future that there will no longer be that institution to complain of.

As for me, I want it to survive.

----------


## Pete

For sentimental reasons, it would be sad to see them go.

But I also hate this broad-brush characterization of all local papers as being essential to their communities.  Some are good, some are bad.  And the Oklahoman in many ways is bad for the community as a whole and has been for a very long time; for reasons that have nothing to do so with their recent revenue woes.

In the meantime, they seem far more interested in stealing the work of other local journalists without attribution and defending their turf and jobs, which actually works directly against quality local journalism.  Ironic, given how they are now begging people to prop them up as if they are the only hope for local news.

----------


## Midtowner

> Out of curiosity, do you know the date from that paper? My eyes can't make it out.


I'd guess between 1907 and 1911based on Haskell giving a fair deal to labor. I'm guessing Haskell refers to our first governor who was in office at that time.

----------


## Midtowner

> For sentimental reasons, it would be sad to see them go.
> 
> But I also hate this broad-brush characterization of all local papers as being essential to their communities.  Some are good, some are bad.  And the Oklahoman in many ways is bad for the community as a whole and has been for a very long time; for reasons that have nothing to do so with their recent revenue woes.
> 
> In the meantime, they seem far more interested in stealing the work of other local journalists without attribution and defending their turf and jobs, which actually works directly against quality local journalism.  Ironic, given how they are now begging people to prop them up as if they are the only hope for local news.


I'd be sad to see them go as I can't imagine anyone coming in behind them and starting any kind of new daily paper. We need someone to cover obits, classifieds, social, real estate, local business. I even think the editorial page is of great value--even when I disagree with 75% of what they write. 

Back in my undergrad, I had a chance to question one of the more prominent news reporters (if prominent is a thing a local reporter can be) in the OKC area. I asked him why he wasn't more critical, why he never reported on obviously corrupt practices. I was told he valued his sources and didn't want to burn bridges. I guess if you're just there to collect a paycheck, that tracks.

----------


## okatty

I played golf with 4 guys yesterday and I mentioned something in the Oklahoman sports page.  As it turned out, I was the only one of the 5 who has kept my subscription in place (including online).    Not a random sample, but it is a reflection as all 5 had subscriptions historically.

----------


## David

Edit: removing this since I see Pete asking us to move on. This was instructive about certain posters here, however.

----------


## Doug Loudenback

> Out of curiosity, do you know the date from that paper? My eyes can't make it out.


The date was 9.13.1907. I discussed that cartoon and its associated editorial at length in a May 2009 blog post entitled, "The History of Jim Crow in Oklahoma City." Although EK Gaylord didn't own the Oklahoman then, he was in the organization at the time. The Oklahoman editorial was written by Roy E Stafford who later sold the paper to Gaylord.

----------


## Pete

> Back in my undergrad, I had a chance to question one of the more prominent news reporters (if prominent is a thing a local reporter can be) in the OKC area. I asked him why he wasn't more critical, why he never reported on obviously corrupt practices. I was told he valued his sources and didn't want to burn bridges. I guess if you're just there to collect a paycheck, that tracks.


It's called access journalism and is a huge violation of ethics.

You should go out and get information, not rely on others to feed it to you.  When someone feeds you a story, they do so because they want it told a certain way.  The job of a journalist to seek the purest form of truth possible, not do the bidding of others.

The Oklahoman is one of the worst offenders, often serving as a PR outlet rather than performing real journalism.

Before I call anyone, I try and have all the facts I need for a story.  Many times someone will say, "Well, we're not ready for that information to be out."  Which tells you that they are used to merely putting out press releases when they are ready.  After at first being confused by this, I learned to say, "I'm not asking for your permission; just providing the opportunity to answer some questions and add comment." 

Every once in a while, I'll hold a story for a couple of days so they can provide added info.  And more than once, I've had someone pick up the phone and call the Oklahoman so they can get the story written the way they want it.

Or in the recent case of Farmers Bank, they don't return my call and then after my story comes out, they give the Oklahoman some PR quotes that are printed without question or context.

----------


## Doug Loudenback

Pete, perhaps you can tone down your Oklahoman criticism, just a tad.  You have expressed your point of view several times from your powerful position of forum owner. But, your point of view is not all that there is. It would be good to have a little peace on this topic. No one wants a fight, not me, at least. Can we agree to chill, just a little?

----------


## gopokes88

Criticize all you want Pete it’s your board. 

But I’m def in the camp that doesn’t get super worked up about access journalism and what the Oklahoman is up to. I really like Steve’s chats and reading berry tramel, the rest is just white noise.

----------


## citywokchinesefood

> Pete, perhaps you can tone down your Oklahoman criticism, just a tad.  You have expressed your point of view several times from your powerful position of forum owner. But, your point of view is not all that there is. It would be good to have a little peace on this topic. No one wants a fight, not me, at least. Can we agree to chill, just a little?


If the Oklahoman changed their business practices they wouldn't need to be criticized. This is not a matter of opinion being discussed here. The largest paper in OKC is arguably one of the least reputable sources of information. This is not okay.

----------


## cindycat

Now on a serious note: The comics are usually on the last page of the last section of the paper. Occasionally they'll be on a separate page, backing a full-page ad. Today we got a bonus...we got both!!  Lack of communication, perhaps?

----------


## Mr. Blue Sky

Anybody noticed The Oklahoman has now put in an even “harder” paywall? You can’t get any free articles without first signing up for their newsletter. *Articles are now all blurred out.* Cleaning cookies does nothing. This is now a “hard” paywall that disallows any free views to anyone without signing up for the newsletter for five articles a month. Of course, there is the subscription option, but prices are ridiculous.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Anybody noticed The Oklahoman has now put in an even harder paywall? You cant get any free articles without first signing up for their newsletter. *Articles are now all blurred out.* Cleaning cookies does nothing. This is now a hard paywall that disallows any free views to anyone without signing up for the newsletter for five articles a month. Of course, there is the subscription option, but prices are ridiculous.


Well that marks the end of what little remaining interest I had in reading the Oklahoman. Definitely not worth any amount of money for a subscription

----------


## Pete

Four days ago, I posted that Tinseltown applied for a liquor license.

Somehow that tidbit of info warrants a nearly full front page of the Oklahoman's business section, complete with two photos of the theater from 2000 (on the marquee is Coyote Ugly and Kings of Comedy).  There was also a small leader on the front page for this story.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Four days ago, I posted that Tinseltown applied for a liquor license.
> 
> Somehow that tidbit of info warrants a nearly full front page of the Oklahoman's business section, complete with two photos of the theater from 2000 (on the marquee is Coyote Ugly and Kings of Comedy).  There was also a small leader on the front page for this story.


And let me guess...they cited you and OKCTalk for discovering the permit and breaking the story like a responsible news organization would.

----------


## Pete

^

I don't even care about that in this instance...  Just that they are manufacturing stories to fill their scant pages and there was almost zero work done here.  They couldn't even go out and take a photo that wasn't 19 years old.

----------


## jerrywall

> Anybody noticed The Oklahoman has now put in an even harder paywall? You cant get any free articles without first signing up for their newsletter. *Articles are now all blurred out.* Cleaning cookies does nothing. This is now a hard paywall that disallows any free views to anyone without signing up for the newsletter for five articles a month. Of course, there is the subscription option, but prices are ridiculous.


If someone were so inclined, the free Brave browser with the scripts turned off works for being able to read a certain news site without annoying blurring... not that I'd suggest this route... *cough*

----------


## Mott

:Oops:  :Smiley199:  :Smiley199: Those who remember Taylor’s newsstand on Main, back when Downtown was empty of retail, they had every magazine printed, even out of town newspapers.  One day I went into pick up that month’s Trains magazine, and they had taken an article from a Journalism magazine and put it on their windows, a full eight feet high, “Is this the Worst Paper in the United States?”  I don’t exactly know what their issue with the Oklahoman was, but they left it in the window for a long time, and it made me chuckle every time I went in.  This was in the early ‘80’s.

----------


## Pete

^

Loved Taylors!

It moved into the Century Center for a while before closing for good.

----------


## d-usa

The paywall has just caused me to avoid the site completely.

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

> ^
> 
> Loved Taylors!
> 
> It moved into the Century Center for a while before closing for good.


Before trips to other cities, I’d go to Taylors and buy their local papers - Chicago Tribune, San Francisco Chronicle, Detroit Free Press, etc. - to get a feel for what was happening there. Long before the interwebs.

----------


## gopokes88

I hope one day, all the local papers across the country, come up with a partnership where I can subscribe to them all for $19.99/month. I dk how it would work but sure would be nice.

----------


## runOKC

> I hope one day, all the local papers across the country, come up with a partnership where I can subscribe to them all for $19.99/month. I dk how it would work but sure would be nice.


Would not be surprised at all to see this one day with GateHouse. Especially if they keep losing subscribers to the many individual papers they own.

----------


## Timshel

> I hope one day, all the local papers across the country, come up with a partnership where I can subscribe to them all for $19.99/month. I dk how it would work but sure would be nice.


I think it will happen and probably sooner than we may expect. Bet it will get tied into services such as Apple News+

----------


## Mr. Blue Sky

> I think it will happen and probably sooner than we may expect. Bet it will get tied into services such as Apple News+


I had Apple News+ and thought it was a good deal. Until... *The best kept secret of the Metropolitan Library System here in OKC is RBdigital Magazines.* Absolutely free access to hundreds of magazines. Our favorite magazine is The Week - its free! We use the iOS app and it's perfect. The New Yorker, The American Scholar, Newsweek, The Economist, Fast Company, Inc, Kiplinger's,  Popular Mechanics, Wired, Architectural Digest, Men's Health, Billboard, Rolling Stone, Astronomy, Discover, New Scientist, Popular Science, National Geographic, Conde Nast Traveler, ESPN The Magazine, Golf Digest, Scuba ... on and on it goes. It's amazing. Full, complete editions and most with back archives. All free with a library card. You can check out what you want, no need to "return", keep as long as you want or delete off your device. Seriously, how many people know about this? 

And surely you know about Kanopy streaming from the library?

It's journalism, so I thought this would be a good place to mention this. No daily papers - yet. When I asked RB about it a couple months back they said it's a big project they are working on.

----------


## d-usa

Hoopla is available for free via the library as well: ebooks and audiobooks galore, as well as more movies.

----------


## Mr. Blue Sky

I should have given the link to RBdigital
https://www.metrolibrary.org/find/do...ream#magazines
Yes! Hoopla, too.

----------


## Pete

Here's a story where the reporter just transcribes what a property owner is telling him without doing any research on his own.

"Russell said he remains committed to redeveloping the dome and not tearing it down."

Nowhere does it mention the property has been listed for sale for weeks and at 3X what was paid for it just a few years ago.

Headline:  "Drive-through demolition part of a plan to restore Gold Dome"


https://oklahoman.com/article/564218...tore-gold-dome

----------


## gopokes88

Lol. Who approved this?






Hey bob, let’s let the boomer from Edmond go on a maps rant, this is the comic section right?

----------


## Pete

They published this a couple of weeks ago as part of their annual audit (usually required by advertisers).

I remember when daily circulation was over 300,000.  They were over 92,000 just last year.

----------


## d-usa

> Lol. Who approved this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey bob, let’s let the boomer from Edmond go on a maps rant, this is the comic section right?


One of the arguments raised in favor of MAPS is that non-OKC folks end up paying the tax as well. Boomers in Edmond will be affected by the tax, so why shouldn’t they be allowed to have an opinion about it?

----------


## chuck5815

> Lol. Who approved this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey bob, let’s let the boomer from Edmond go on a maps rant, this is the comic section right?


i fail to see the comedy. This is easily the worst MAPS the city has ever proposed and it should be roundly opposed by everyone in the greater metro area. 

also, parts of west edmond are actually in OKC districts.

----------


## gopokes88

> One of the arguments raised in favor of MAPS is that non-OKC folks end up paying the tax as well. Boomers in Edmond will be affected by the tax, so why shouldn’t they be allowed to have an opinion about it?


Because they don’t have a seat at the table that’s why. 

And there is no “west Edmond”. There’s okc. And there’s Edmond. 

And if you want to vote for or against maps, live in okc. 

The amount of benefits Edmond gets because of maps way outweighs how much Edmond taxpayers pay into. 
We never get Boeing without maps. Devon probably moves to Houston. 
They both have significant shares of their workforce living in Edmond.

----------


## chuck5815

> Because they don’t have a seat at the table that’s why. 
> 
> And there is no “west Edmond”. There’s okc. And there’s Edmond. 
> 
> And if you want to vote for or against maps, live in okc. 
> 
> The amount of benefits Edmond gets because of maps way outweighs how much Edmond taxpayers pay into. 
> We never get Boeing without maps. Devon probably moves to Houston. 
> They both have significant shares of their workforce living in Edmond.


wrong. the northern parts of ward 7 and 8 have edmond addresses and their kids attend Edmond schools.

----------


## TheTravellers

> wrong. the northern parts of ward 7 and 8 have edmond addresses and their kids attend Edmond schools.


An Edmond address does *not* mean you live in OKC city limits.  We had an Edmond address while living on NW 162nd between May and Penn and were in OKC city limits.  Postal addresses and school district limits do not always line up precisely with city limits.

----------


## AP

> wrong. the northern parts of ward 7 and 8 have edmond addresses and their kids attend Edmond schools.


https://data.okc.gov/portal/page/vie...aries&view=map

----------


## TheTravellers

> An Edmond address does *not* mean you live in OKC city limits.  We had an Edmond address while living on NW 162nd between May and Penn and were in OKC city limits.  Postal addresses and school district limits do not always line up precisely with city limits.


Meant to say "An Edmond address does *not* mean you live in Edmond city limits."

----------


## ctchandler

I have lived in an Edmond address for over 42 years and only 7 months of that time did I live in Edmond.  I was about a mile East of Frontier City for 40 years, and currently live on 178th and Western (both OKC city limits) and about 7 months on East 22nd, Edmond.
C. T.

----------


## runOKC

Anyone have any info on the kids coming around selling Oklahoman subscriptions for scholarship money? Is this legit or a scheme to drive up subscriptions (or both)?

----------


## Pete

Their News Director, Ben Felder, left the Oklahoman and is now working for the non-profit Frontier.  It's where Brianna Bailey also landed after she left.

They promoted Ryan Sharp from sports to be the new News Director.

----------


## David

I was wondering where Ben was going, very interesting that he also went to Frontier. I have been impressed with their work so far.

https://www.readfrontier.org/ for anyone who might be curious.

----------


## king183

> Anyone have any info on the kids coming around selling Oklahoman subscriptions for scholarship money? Is this legit or a scheme to drive up subscriptions (or both)?


I had the same question a few years ago, so I called the Oklahoman to ask. They said it's a legit program they run.

----------


## catcherinthewry

I got treated to two pages of The Ardmorite in today's online print replica version of The Oklahoman. Did they make the same mistake with the hard copy?

Also did I miss anything important on pages A7 and A9?

----------


## Pete

This is pathetic and outrageously unethical even by their standards.  They don't report on any of these subjects until we do, having done all the work for them and of course, they provide zero credit.  And they expect people to pay their New York hedge fund for this while claiming they are somehow the champions of 'local journalism'.

It's about the only thing their business reporter has been doing other than promotional pieces for MAPS.


11/22/19
https://twitter.com/OKCTalk/status/1197874987786485760
12/2/19
https://oklahoman.com/article/564878...tomobile-alley


11/29/19
https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=45479
12/3/19
https://oklahoman.com/article/564877...-new-boulevard


11/20/19
https://www.okctalk.com/content.php?...ler-dealership
11/23/19
https://oklahoman.com/article/564789...own-dealership


11/20/19
https://www.okctalk.com/content.php?...treet-corridor
11/22/19
https://oklahoman.com/article/564774...s-along-uptown

----------


## barrettd

> This is pathetic and outrageously unethical even by their standards.  They don't report on any of these subjects until we do, having done all the work for them and of course, they provide zero credit.  And they expect people to pay their New York hedge fund for this while claiming they are somehow the champions of 'local journalism'.
> 
> It's about the only thing their business reporter has been doing other than promotional pieces for MAPS.
> 
> 
> 11/22/19
> https://twitter.com/OKCTalk/status/1197874987786485760
> 12/2/19
> https://oklahoman.com/article/564878...tomobile-alley
> ...


I don't even know why I keep going to their site. The website is a mess, and most of it's behind a paywall, anyway. For a while (for some reason), I had a subscription to their site. It was nearly impossible to cancel (had to phone customer service and sit on hold for, literally, an hour), but it was easy to change payment options. I switched my credit card to an empty Visa gift card.

I'll pick up a free print copy to pass the time at the barber or bagel shop, but I'm amazed people still subscribe and keep them in business.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I don't even know why I keep going to their site. The website is a mess, and most of it's behind a paywall, anyway. For a while (for some reason), I had a subscription to their site. It was nearly impossible to cancel (had to phone customer service and sit on hold for, literally, an hour), but it was easy to change payment options. I switched my credit card to an empty Visa gift card.I'll pick up a free print copy to pass the time at the barber or bagel shop, but I'm amazed people still subscribe and keep them in business.


Me neither.  I visit and it's just crap.  The website has enough videos and ads to choke a horse and the paywall hides everything.  Other papers give you a certain number of free articles per month, but I've yet to have the counter reset for the Oklahoman.  Interestingly, I do support the Tulsa World and the difference between the two papers is night and day.

----------


## TheTravellers

Only thing I go there for is Lackmeyer's chat on Fridays, there's some actual useful information there (when he doesn't answer "I'll check into it", that is).

----------


## barrettd

> Only thing I go there for is Lackmeyer's chat on Fridays, there's some actual useful information there (when he doesn't answer "I'll check into it", that is).


I suppose, but if I'm ever curious about something around town, I message Pete and he's usually already got an answer for it. I don't think Steve has the market cornered on future plans for OKC anymore, if he ever did.

----------


## TheTravellers

> I suppose, but if I'm ever curious about something around town, I message Pete and he's usually already got an answer for it. I don't think Steve has the market cornered on future plans for OKC anymore, if he ever did.


Nope, he doesn't, but he has posted things that haven't been posted here yet, and it's interesting to see what the other chat participants have to say since some of them are pretty knowledgeable and some others are city employees.

----------


## barrettd

> Nope, he doesn't, but he has posted things that haven't been posted here yet, and it's interesting to see what the other chat participants have to say since some of them are pretty knowledgeable and some others are city employees.


Very true. When I think of it, I do occasionally read the chat transcripts. This site is just a lot easier to navigate and keep up with, for me.

----------


## cindycat

How can I get a response when I ask a question about the content on oklahoma.com? The weather page used to open with the current temperature and 7-day forecast. Now, nothing. If I click on any of the options, a little note in the bottom left corner says java script: (0); If I click on the map, I get a new screen with an error message. I've tried three people (guessing, because there's no address for Weather or Online Content) with no reply.

----------


## Anonymous.

> How can I get a response when I ask a question about the content on oklahoma.com? The weather page used to open with the current temperature and 7-day forecast. Now, nothing. If I click on any of the options, a little note in the bottom left corner says java script: (0); If I click on the map, I get a new screen with an error message. I've tried three people (guessing, because there's no address for Weather or Online Content) with no reply.


Do yourself a favor and just use the Mesonet.

https://www.mesonet.org/index.php/fo...l_and_regional

----------


## Swake

It's only been a month since Gatehouse and Gannett merged. I would expect in the coming months that The Oklahoman website will be converted to the Gannett standard website, all of Gannett's local papers look the same, it's a bit like how USA Today looks.

As they merge websites and billing systems the existing systems likely will not to not be maintained well, sometimes not at all. I would also hope their reporting to get more professional.

A couple of examples of Gannett papers:
https://www.desmoinesregister.com
https://www.indystar.com

And then of course USA Today:
https://www.usatoday.com

----------


## Mr. Blue Sky

> It's only been a month since Gatehouse and Gannett merged. I would expect in the coming months that The Oklahoman website will be converted to the Gannett standard website, all of Gannett's local papers look the same, it's a bit like how USA Today looks.
> 
> As they merge websites and billing systems the existing systems likely will not to not be maintained well, sometimes not at all. I would also hope their reporting to get more professional.
> 
> A couple of examples of Gannett papers:
> https://www.desmoinesregister.com
> https://www.indystar.com
> 
> And then of course USA Today:
> https://www.usatoday.com


Swake, I see it all as nothing but a disaster. The key is that it was Gatehouse that acquired Gannett, not the other way around. Gatehouse Media ceased to exist as they absorbed Gannett by way of a huge $1 Billion+ loan at 11% interest. They chose the Gannett brand over Gatehouse by naming the new company Gannett. The CEO is Mike Reed (the Gatehouse CEO). He is to journalists as "Chainsaw" Al Dunlap was to factory workers. Reed's big promise to stockholders is to cut some *$300,000,000.00* in operating costs by way of the merger and "strategic cost cuts." Some think it will mean up to 5,000 jobs over the next two years. The first round of layoffs a couple of weeks ago was peanuts compared to what's to come in 2020.

----------


## okatty

^I guess it’s a pipe dream to expect George Schroeder (USA Today) to land on the sports staff of the Oklahoman.   I saw he was caught up in staff reductions at USA Today.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> ^I guess its a pipe dream to expect George Schroeder (USA Today) to land on the sports staff of the Oklahoman.   I saw he was caught up in staff reductions at USA Today.


george will land somewhere great ...   he is very talented ..

----------


## okatty

> george will land somewhere great ...   he is very talented ..


He really is.  Also enjoy him on radio.

----------


## Rover

> He really is.  Also enjoy him on radio.


Hey... maybe he could replace Trabor.   :Smile:

----------


## The Shadow

Perhaps I missed it, but why am I not surprised "the paper" has yet to do a story on the Casady graduate charged with first degree murder? Hmmm

----------


## chuck5815

> Perhaps I missed it, but why am I not surprised "the paper" has yet to do a story on the Casady graduate charged with first degree murder? Hmmm


It sounds like she graduated from Casady, but ultimately turned out to be a very Bad Mujer.

----------


## Rover

> Perhaps I missed it, but why am I not surprised "the paper" has yet to do a story on the Casady graduate charged with first degree murder? Hmmm


Who are you talking about?

I know what you are insinuating, but bad people come from all walks of life.  To imply that OPUBCO is covering up a murder because of someone's high school, social status, or anything else is just wrong.

----------


## barrettd

> Perhaps I missed it, but why am I not surprised "the paper" has yet to do a story on the Casady graduate charged with first degree murder? Hmmm


I would say it has less to do with the student and more to do with the general lack of reporting on the paper's part on pretty much anything. Add to that most of the site is now behind a paywall, and the site is a horrible mess on a good day, and it's no surprise that 1. they didn't report on the story at all or 2. they did report on it but it's impossible to find on that site.

The TV stations all carried it on the news. The accused is a former student of my wife so she was following it all when it broke.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

It hasn’t been a week. Seems like they put a couple crime stories on page 4 or 5, and they are more concerned about ad layout than timeliness. I’m guessing it will run in the Sunday edition.

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

OCPD issued a release on this incident through their Twitter & FB accounts. The 10:00 p.m. local TV news is where you’ll find “police blotter” info, a la “If it bleeds it leads.”

----------


## The Shadow

> OCPD issued a release on this incident through their Twitter & FB accounts. The 10:00 p.m. local TV news is where you’ll find “police blotter” info, a la “If it bleeds it leads.”


Exactly, I'd say the reason the story ran on Channel 4, 5 ,9 and 25 is because it's a very juicy news story and that spells ratings. The more people who watch your 10pm news slot, the more you can charge for advertising. I noticed locally owned channel 9 actually teased the story in the earlier newscasts to get the viewer to tune in at 10pm. And yes, when they teased the story they actually said the words "former Casady student in OK county jail for murder." You realize that is a lot more enticing to the viewer than something like "former John Marshall student in OK county jail for murder." And thats why they do it.

I'd say the reason you have yet to see the story run in the Oklahoman also has to do with advertising. If you take the print edition of the paper, you'll notice Casady is an advertiser. Any idea what a half page ad in the Sunday edition costs? It's not cheap, but they do it because the paper is one of the easiest ways in town to expose your business to affluent consumers. You'll also notice that Casady's athletic programs get a lot of publicity in the paper, and they're not even members of the OSSAA. Considering the crime involves a former Casady athlete being held without bond for a gruesome murder, that might have a little something to do with it.

Eventually they will have to run the story, which is what they did involving the other two murder cases involving Casady alums over the last two decades. The difference is, in both of those cases the alum was the murder victim and not the perpetrator. Both of those cases involved drug transactions.

----------


## CloudDeckMedia

> I'd say the reason you have yet to see the story run in the Oklahoman also has to do with advertising. If you take the print edition of the paper, you'll notice Casady is an advertiser.


That's a bold claim. Would you mind sharing your data on murder suspects who have graduated from Oklahoman advertisers versus those who haven't?

----------


## The Shadow

^Cloud Deck, this is unique in that the advertiser is a school, and the only schools which would ever advertise in the paper are private. To my knowledge, there has never been a Casady, Heritage or McGuinness alum charged with 1st degree murder in OK Co. That's why I think this case kind of sticks out. Not to mention, the paper seems to sometimes be a little selective when reporting about their advertisers when they get in trouble....Chesapeake, Teemco, Epic Charter School, Farmers Bank etc...

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> ^Cloud Deck, this is unique in that the advertiser is a school, and the only schools which would ever advertise in the paper are private. To my knowledge, there has never been a Casady, Heritage or McGuinness alum charged with 1st degree murder in OK Co. That's why I think this case kind of sticks out. Not to mention, the paper seems to sometimes be a little selective when reporting about their advertisers when they get in trouble....Chesapeake, Teemco, Epic Charter School, Farmers Bank etc...


If I were to question your reasoning, I would suggest that the local ownership of KWTV 9 are probably Casady (or Heritage Hall) families, and the Oklahoman is owned by nationwide company GateHouse Media (name changing to Gannett). And the local company would be more afraid of heartburn from covering the story.

----------


## Pete

Gannett -- the monster conglomerate that owns the Oklahoman -- is forcing all employees to do the following based on a column by Berry Tramel:




> One week a month for three months, everyone who works for Gannett must take off, unpaid.

----------


## keyboard

Maybe they are "auditioning" to see who is missed the least workwise during the unpaid furlough, in the ever-ending quest to whittle down the number of "essential" employees and save/make money.

----------


## mugofbeer

I find that a lot more moral a thing to do than, as the mortgage bust was taking hold, my old employer cut employee pay 40% then never reinstated it long after the company's financial fortunes had recovered.

----------


## gopokes88

> Maybe they are "auditioning" to see who is missed the least workwise during the unpaid furlough, in the ever-ending quest to whittle down the number of "essential" employees and save/make money.


Every business will be doing this, not necessarily the unpaid part, but the whittle and learn who is essential.

----------


## Rover

> Every business will be doing this, not necessarily the unpaid part, but the whittle and learn who is essential.


Yes, there are some who were feeling safe skating by who will be surprised to learn they just weren't that essential to the mission anyway.  Everybody has to step up their game to survive these things and show their worth.

----------


## keyboard

> Every business will be doing this, not necessarily the unpaid part, but the whittle and learn who is essential.


You can only whittle so much or nothing will be left. Look at the paper today compared to what it was. Many truly essential people have been eliminated, no matter what the PR spin.

----------


## keyboard

> Yes, there are some who were feeling safe skating by who will be surprised to learn they just weren't that essential to the mission anyway.  Everybody has to step up their game to survive these things and show their worth.


I can understand if a company can't afford to hire someone anymore, but the employer will not come out and say that. Instead, the blame is placed on the laid-off workers, who are devalued as "nonessential," when in reality the company is doing it for strictly financial reasons while still trying to present itself as the same product to its customers. Which is a disservice to the customers. Maybe there's a reality TV show here: "Survivor: The Oklahoman."  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rover

> I can understand if a company can't afford to hire someone anymore, but the employer will not come out and say that. Instead, the blame is placed on the laid-off workers, who are devalued as "nonessential," when in reality the company is doing it for strictly financial reasons while still trying to present itself as the same product to its customers. Which is a disservice to the customers. Maybe there's a reality TV show here: "Survivor: The Oklahoman."


There's a difference between devaluing a person and devaluing a position, or even a skill set.  Companies discover all the time that a certain position is not needed to survive or that it costs them more than the revenue it enables.  And, it also discovers that some individuals don't provide the value that they expected them to.  Companies who pad their payroll and aren't efficient go out of business. 

Private for profit companies exist to make money, not to be a public service.  Their first rule is survival.  They cannot stay in business if they continue to lose money.  Make no mistake, capitalism IS about profit, not about a guarantee of work for the citizens of the country.

----------


## keyboard

> There's a difference between devaluing a person and devaluing a position, or even a skill set.  Companies discover all the time that a certain position is not needed to survive or that it costs them more than the revenue it enables.  And, it also discovers that some individuals don't provide the value that they expected them to.  Companies who pad their payroll and aren't efficient go out of business. 
> 
> Private for profit companies exist to make money, not to be a public service.  Their first rule is survival.  They cannot stay in business if they continue to lose money.  Make no mistake, capitalism IS about profit, not about a guarantee of work for the citizens of the country.


But newspapers like to tout  that they are a public service, and their employees use words like "mission."  I think they should actually fall into a nonprofit category, but that raises all sorts of ethical issues about funding. Technically, The Oklahoman still has a print issue, but it's suffered badly and is a shadow of its former self in terms of advertising vs. editorial space, size, delivery, paper quality and coverage.  Any longtime reader will tell you that. I would hope that, with less employees and a paper that still needs to be put out, if The Oklahoman tries to make people work unpaid overtime, it gets reported to the Labor Department. Its employees may be on a mission for news, but the company is on a mission for money.

----------


## Rover

> But newspapers like to tout  that they are a public service, and their employees use words like "mission."  I think they should actually fall into a nonprofit category, but that raises all sorts of ethical issues about funding. Technically, The Oklahoman still has a print issue, but it's suffered badly and is a shadow of its former self in terms of advertising vs. editorial space, size, delivery, paper quality and coverage.  Any longtime reader will tell you that. I would hope that, with less employees and a paper that still needs to be put out, if The Oklahoman tries to make people work unpaid overtime, it gets reported to the Labor Department. Its employees may be on a mission for news, but the company is on a mission for money.


A paper may provide a service to citizens but is like any business...it MUST make money to survive. Unless you want a government run press then they have to be for profit. If people are willing to pay for a free press, heaven help America.  

By the way, even non profits have to actually take in more than they pay out.  Non profit isnt not for profit.

----------


## Rover

> A paper may provide a service to citizens but is like any business...it MUST make money to survive. Unless you want a government run press then they have to be for profit. If people are NOT willing to pay for a free press, heaven help America.  
> 
> By the way, even non profits have to actually take in more than they pay out.  Non profit isnt not for profit.


See correction

----------


## keyboard

> A paper may provide a service to citizens but is like any business...it MUST make money to survive. Unless you want a government run press then they have to be for profit. If people are willing to pay for a free press, heaven help America.  
> 
> By the way, even non profits have to actually take in more than they pay out.  Non profit isn’t not for profit.


Have you heard of the Poynter Institute? It's a nonprofit journalism school and research organization in St. Petersburg, Florida. The school is the owner of the Tampa Bay Times newspaper and the International Fact-Checking Network. Also, some newspapers have gone to being employee owned. The current business model of megachains buying all of these papers and slashing them to bits is not helping journalism.

----------


## Rover

> Have you heard of the Poynter Institute? It's a nonprofit journalism school and research organization in St. Petersburg, Florida. The school is the owner of the Tampa Bay Times newspaper and the International Fact-Checking Network. Also, some newspapers have gone to being employee owned. The current business model of megachains buying all of these papers and slashing them to bits is not helping journalism.


Ultimately, even employee owned must pay the bills to stay afloat.  They either need earned income or donations. And, as I said, non-profit doesn't mean they can survive if they are consistently in the red.  Non-profit isn't a magic status that suspends the laws of business and economics.  

I agree that the chains aren't good, but there's a reason local newspapers are selling to them.  It's a very difficult and expensive thing to have newsrooms and hire qualified and good journalists.

----------


## keyboard

> Ultimately, even employee owned must pay the bills to stay afloat.  They either need earned income or donations. And, as I said, non-profit doesn't mean they can survive if they are consistently in the red.  Non-profit isn't a magic status that suspends the laws of business and economics.  
> 
> I agree that the chains aren't good, but there's a reason local newspapers are selling to them.  It's a very difficult and expensive thing to have newsrooms and hire qualified and good journalists.


Well, eventually everything will be online, but nobody's figured out how to abandon print while retaining ad revenue. There's also subscriptions, but the product has to be worth the price to compete with all of the free content online. That's why all of the staff reductions are so bad; they hurt the quality of the product even if all of the "essential" people are still on staff. Things happen behind the scenes, too. I'm really pulling for the employee-owned publications out there. That takes tremendous dedication.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> Well, eventually everything will be online, but nobody's figured out how to abandon print while retaining ad revenue. There's also subscriptions, but the product has to be worth the price to compete with all of the free content online. That's why all of the staff reductions are so bad; they hurt the quality of the product even if all of the "essential" people are still on staff. Things happen behind the scenes, too. I'm really pulling for the employee-owned publications out there. That takes tremendous dedication.


I have begun to think that we are on the track to sustainability. I'm around 60 and subscribe to 4 papers online. In 2019 I thought the Oklahoman under the GateHouse model of cross platform content sharing (using stories from all their other newspapers around America, including USA Today)  had a product that was essential reading for me in the print replica. The Wall Street Journal web content was essential. The Washington Post under Angel Owner Jeff Bezos had essential content on it's web version with my Amazon Prime discount. And the Las Vegas Review-Journal under Angel Owner Sheldon Adelson is actually providing solid journalistic content that is free of his hyper conservative political views, also in the print replica. My son lets me use his WSJ sub, and the other 3 cost me less than $25 a month combined.

----------


## keyboard

> I have begun to think that we are on the track to sustainability. I'm around 60 and subscribe to 4 papers online. In 2019 I thought the Oklahoman under the GateHouse model of cross platform content sharing (using stories from all their other newspapers around America, including USA Today)  had a product that was essential reading for me in the print replica. The Wall Street Journal web content was essential. The Washington Post under Angel Owner Jeff Bezos had essential content on it's web version with my Amazon Prime discount. And the Las Vegas Review-Journal under Angel Owner Sheldon Adelson is actually providing solid journalistic content that is free of his hyper conservative political views, also in the print replica. My son lets me use his WSJ sub, and the other 3 cost me less than $25 a month combined.


That's fantastic for you, especially if you agree with The Oklahoman politically. By using your son's subscription, though, you kind of cut into the WSJ's profit, which I'm not saying to be catty.  :Smiley122:   Seems like you might want to support free press.

----------


## Rover

Just wondering what everyone on here thinks the value a local newspaper should have... what kind of content must it have? What will you pay for? Will you pay for quality free press?  Does it have to slant towards your existing political and social beliefs to be considered real news?

----------


## mugofbeer

> Just wondering what everyone on here thinks the value a local newspaper should have... what kind of content must it have? What will you pay for? Will you pay for quality free press?  Does it have to slant towards your existing political and social beliefs to be considered real news?


What would be nice is if there were sort of a subscription "cable" system that provided multiple print medium for a single discounted price instead of paying separate subscriptions for each publication.

So, Gannett, put all your papers online for a single $20/mo subscription.

----------


## Mr. Blue Sky

> What would be nice is if there were sort of a subscription "cable" system that provided multiple print medium for a single discounted price instead of paying separate subscriptions for each publication.
> 
> So, Gannett, put all your papers online for a single $20/mo subscription.


Anybody in Oklahoma County (probably the same up in Colorado) with a library card has access to almost every major daily newspaper. Kind of a "public bundle." Many major magazines (most, actually) are freely available through the library's connection with RBDigital - simple as pie, too. There is so much good material, most available with simple apps, that many don't know about. Kanopy is full of great films, many movies that rent for $3.00 at Amazon Video or Google Play are available free on Kanopy. Throw in Hoopla and Overdrive with their huge libraries of ebooks and audiobooks and you've got online access to more than most people realize. A library card is your lifelong learning university -- online and off. My library card i_s my single most prized possession._ No kidding!

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> That's fantastic for you, especially if you agree with The Oklahoman politically. By using your son's subscription, though, you kind of cut into the WSJ's profit, which I'm not saying to be catty.   Seems like you might want to support free press.


I do not agree with The Oklahoman politically. That doesn't mean they do not provide informative news copy. I find the news, sports and business coverage good enough to pay for. If I only took information from people I agree with I would a very closed mind.

The comment about the WSJ subscription is a good starting point to talk about online subscriptions. Pay web sites expect some degree of family sharing. Print copies of newspapers and magazines are build on the expectation of multiple readings within the family or office. Ad rates are based on that. So are online subscription rates.

----------


## keyboard

> I do not agree with The Oklahoman politically. That doesn't mean they do not provide informative news copy. I find the news, sports and business coverage good enough to pay for. If I only took information from people I agree with I would a very closed mind.
> 
> The comment about the WSJ subscription is a good starting point to talk about online subscriptions. Pay web sites expect some degree of family sharing. Print copies of newspapers and magazines are build on the expectation of multiple readings within the family or office. Ad rates are based on that. So are online subscription rates.


Good for you. Hope your and The Oklahoman remain very happy together. I prefer a variety of news sources.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> Good for you. Hope your and The Oklahoman remain very happy together. I prefer a variety of news sources.


Do you pay for any of them?

----------


## keyboard

> Do you pay for any of them?


I pay for several print publications.  Disappointed?  Also, I read news from sources with a wide spectrum of political views.

----------


## mugofbeer

> Anybody in Oklahoma County (probably the same up in Colorado) with a library card has access to almost every major daily newspaper. Kind of a "public bundle." Many major magazines (most, actually) are freely available through the library's connection with RBDigital - simple as pie, too. There is so much good material, most available with simple apps, that many don't know about. Kanopy is full of great films, many movies that rent for $3.00 at Amazon Video or Google Play are available free on Kanopy. Throw in Hoopla and Overdrive with their huge libraries of ebooks and audiobooks and you've got online access to more than most people realize. A library card is your lifelong learning university -- online and off. My library card i_s my single most prized possession._ No kidding!


Thank you!

Got one but my libraries are all COVID closed!

----------


## Hondo1

Unless I overlooked it today’s Sports Business section had no business items.

----------


## ctchandler

Hondo1,
The markets were closed yesterday.  Historically, there is never a business section (with the exception of Sunday) after a Wall Street holiday.  Sunday is a weekly wrap up for the previous week.
C. T.

----------


## catcherinthewry

Anyone else unable to download the digital version of The Oklahoman this morning?

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> Anyone else unable to download the digital version of The Oklahoman this morning?


Finally got it to load after 8AM

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Finally got it to load after 8AM


Me too.

----------


## Jeepnokc

Seemed really heavy on ads today and very light on substance and hardly any local news,  Several of the stories I had already read before and were just repeats

----------


## Ward

> Seemed really heavy on ads today and very light on substance and hardly any local news,  Several of the stories I had already read before and were just repeats


Years ago, and I mean the 1970's, we used to refer to The Daily Disappointment.

Actually OKC had a very good paper in the Daily Oklahoman, but we joked about the nickname The Daily Disappointment.

I'm a digital and physically printed and delivered paper, but now at this point in time, it has truly become The Daily Disappointment.

From spelling and syntax errors to yesterdays online edition with a story about something else unrelated to the attached pic of Baptist Integris Hospitals building, it's gone sloppy.  

RIP Oklahoman, you're dead, you've just not yet taken your last breath.

----------


## scottk

On a similar note, in 2020, it is sad that local media sites (TV, News, Radio), with full time staffs dedicated to sharing news, video, stories, can't have functional websites. They are hard to navigate, filled with click bait stories masked to look like local news, riddled with ads, stacked with unnecessary alerts,  etc. This is not unique to local news companies, but nearly an industry as a whole.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> Seemed really heavy on ads today and very light on substance and hardly any local news,  Several of the stories I had already read before and were just repeats


GateHouse Media appears to be about the only group consolidating newspapers and providing some kinda evidence of profitability to investors. They “merged” with Gannett last year and kept the name, probably because it was the most valuable asset of the merged company.

Today’s paper is what I think is the first effort of the new Gannett to blend their USA Today platform with the local daily paper. Around the country, local papers are printed with a national USA Today story on the bottom of the page and a local paper story on the top. Both stories following a subject pattern. 

Sunday papers have, for the last decade or so, been feature stories based. The content is pretty much set by Thursday, with a page of open space for national breaking news. Local and international news require less than a full page each for breaking news.
The sports section is the only part that requires more weekend attention.

----------


## HangryHippo

> On a similar note, in 2020, it is sad that local media sites (TV, News, Radio), with full time staffs dedicated to sharing news, video, stories, can't have functional websites. They are hard to navigate, filled with click bait stories masked to look like local news, riddled with ads, stacked with unnecessary alerts,  etc. This is not unique to local news companies, but nearly an industry as a whole.


This.  The Oklahoman's website is atrocious to visit between the pop ups and video ads.  Just terrible.

----------


## cindycat

Earlier this month our neighbor called our carrier to make a vacation stop. She said she wasn't our carrier any more and didn't know who replaced her. Over the next few days our delivery was erratic. No paper. Two papers. Neighbor gets one and we don't....It seems to have settled down now but despite calls and messages to several people, we still don't know who our carrier is. Today we learned that the Oklahoman recently restructured the whole delivery route system.

----------


## Pete

Here, Richard Mize not only plagarizes a press release without attribution, he puts a couple of lines in quotes as if he spoke to the developers, when they weren't quotes at all; just lines directly from the press release. And then he adds "the developers said" when they didn't 'say' anything -- it was the PR firm that wrote the release.

Good grief this is so incredibly unethical.

https://oklahoman.com/article/566548...n-midwest-city




> "Everything from the building facade and signage will reflect this theme," the developers said. "The nature of the building design will create a cool atmosphere for shoppers and tenants alike making Center Marketplace THE place to be in Midwest City."



Press release:

******************

Accelerated Development Services Breaks Ground on New Retail Project
In Midwest City, Oklahoma

Midwest City, OK.  June 30, 2020.  Accelerated Development Services in partnership with California Gold Development Corp. will hold an official Groundbreaking Ceremony for Center Marketplace, located at the southeast corner of 15th Street and Warren Drive in Midwest City Oklahoma. It will be held at 9:00 am on June 30th on the site.  The event is expected to have representatives from Midwest City in attendance to turn the first shovels to kick off the construction for the project.

When complete, Center Marketplace will have a 14,000+/- square foot multi-tenant shops building as well as a separate out-parcel building fronting 15th Street.   There are currently four retail tenants signed in the project with just a few spaces remaining.  

“This development opportunity was brought to us by our Oklahoma broker partner, Dean Ingram with Sooner Investment Real Estate,” said Trey Eakin, Executive Vice President of Accelerated Development Services. “Dean was instrumental in finding Pearle Vision, Nashbird, The Baked Bear, and Smoothie King as our first signed tenants in the project.  We continue to have significant tenant interest and expect to have more new tenant announcements in the near future,” he added.

Center Marketplace is an upscale retail project designed in a 1960’s retro midcentury modern motif.  Everything from the building faade and signage will reflect this theme.  The nature of the building design will create a cool atmosphere for shoppers and tenants alike making Center Marketplace THE place to be in Midwest City.  

The new project has superior positioning at the regional intersection where the 400,000 square foot Sooner Town Center which includes multiple national retail tenants such as Warren Theatre, Hobby Lobby, Academy Sports, and Burlington to name a few.  Rose State College and Tinker Air Force Base are all within the immediate trade area.  Additionally, an established population and strong daytime employment make Center Marketplace an extremely desirable location for many retailers wishing to expand in the Midwest City area.

----------


## Pete

Also, that Mize article has a quote from a broker at Price Edwards.

The Oklahoman features them relentlessly...  A Google site search shows they have referenced Price Edwards 1,480 (!!) times.

The have also run many 'stories' about properties Price Edwards has put up for sale or lease, which is absolutely not news at all as at any time there are literally thousands of commercial properties available in the OKC area.

----------


## PaddyShack

Does the Oklahoman handle the weekly Buyer's Guide? If so I wonder if their delivery woes extend to that as well. Some weeks we don't get it as others around us do, it is very erratic.

----------


## cindycat

> Earlier this month our neighbor called our carrier to make a vacation stop. She said she wasn't our carrier any more and didn't know who replaced her. Over the next few days our delivery was erratic. No paper. Two papers. Neighbor gets one and we don't....It seems to have settled down now but despite calls and messages to several people, we still don't know who our carrier is. Today we learned that the Oklahoman recently restructured the whole delivery route system.


Just to continue my whining...We also subscribe to USA Today. Yesterday we got it and a business/investment paper. Today we got USA Today. Period.  The recorded message says to call back if we haven't received the replacement copy in two hours. My timer is set....

----------


## cindycat

> Just to continue my whining...We also subscribe to USA Today. Yesterday we got it and a business/investment paper. Today we got USA Today. Period.  The recorded message says to call back if we haven't received the replacement copy in two hours. My timer is set....


Updating my whine again. Last week I sent an email to the Circulation Director of Distribution. The next day we got a call from the Choctaw area District Manager. Nice guy. We remember him from another time when we had a new carrier. He agreed that it's taking some time to get the new routes worked out. He gave me the name of our new carriers and asked them to give their contact info to customers on their new route. So far it's going well, except that they need to learn to tie knots in the bags, so we won't get a wet paper like Saturday morning. :Cool:

----------


## Edmond Hausfrau

> Updating my whine again. Last week I sent an email to the Circulation Director of Distribution. The next day we got a call from the Choctaw area District Manager. Nice guy. We remember him from another time when we had a new carrier. He agreed that it's taking some time to get the new routes worked out. He gave me the name of our new carriers and asked them to give their contact info to customers on their new route. So far it's going well, except that they need to learn to tie knots in the bags, so we won't get a wet paper like Saturday morning.


Maybe it's worth switching to just a digital copy at this point?

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> Maybe it's worth switching to just a digital copy at this point?


I finally dropped print within the last 6 months. I had been reading the print replica on my iPad for a few years, and took the print copy to the office as a "lobby copy".   The cold, hard truth is that they just don't care enough about print subscribers to provide timely service. The business has changed to where print is seen as costly and inefficient. They don't want to run off the die hard, print only subscribers, they just want to wear them down to where they will change over to electronic.

----------


## Pete

^

They still get a huge percentage of their revenue from print advertising, which is why they can't stop printing hard copy.

----------


## OKC Guy

> ^
> 
> They still get a huge percentage of their revenue from print advertising, which is why they can't stop printing hard copy.


Do they possibly make most of revenue from that weekly ad flyer that goes in mail?  I think they send it (and to every mailbox in city) so maybe its where most ad revenue comes from?  I wish they would stop sending, goes straight in trash.

----------


## ctchandler

Nm

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> ^
> 
> They still get a huge percentage of their revenue from print advertising, which is why they can't stop printing hard copy.


I think we are within 5 years of daily print newspapers being gone. The current daily home delivery holdouts are mostly over age 65, and mortality and forced adaptation will push them past the tipping point of revenue versus cost. And that isn't a bad thing, IMO.

The news business is much more rapid than print can support. I noticed the Oklahoman had zero election results last Wednesday morning, which tells me the newsroom is pretty much done by 6 or 7 PM nowadays. I thought the majority of all editions from Friday, July 3rd through Monday, July 6th had been put together by Thursday, July 2nd. 1 page of local and state, 1 page of national, 1 page of world, 2 pages of sports and 1 page of business might have been time sensitive.

----------


## Pete

^

If print goes away, likely the entire operation with fail.

They do not make enough in on-line revenue and subscriptions and thus can't employ writers and the rest.

There is a ton of expense with print but it's the only place that generates revenue, even though that is shrinking.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I think Gannett is on the right track (which is probably the only realistic way forward), by accumulating a large number of mid and large sized dailies, and combining USA Today product into a content warehouse that is filled out with local news.  This can provide newspaper style news with an affordable to produce and buy breaking news component. The question is if they can gain enough subscribers at the $10-15 per month level to make it economically feasible.

----------


## Pete

The Oklahoman will no longer endorse political candidates:

https://oklahoman.com/article/567400...ement-business

----------


## BoulderSooner

> The Oklahoman will no longer endorse political candidates:
> 
> https://oklahoman.com/article/567400...ement-business


from the story    "a primary reason is we don't have a full editorial board"   


ie  we don't employ enough people to do this ...

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I think the changing of the times and industry have more to do with this than anything else. Used to be that the local newspaper had a leading citizen as owner and/or publisher. They would usually make endorsements based on the "greater good of the community". Or their personal business interests and relationships in many cases, if truth be known. With the industry consolidation leaving Oklahoman owner Gannett publishing USA Today and something like 100 local papers, it is hard to make local endorsements that are uniform within the overall company management philosophies. Rest assured, The Oklahoman is a conservative, Republican newspaper, and will remain as such.

----------


## gopokes88

Lol Steve reporting on energy is hilarious 

https://oklahoman.com/article/567407...n-downtown-okc

"It also holds a massive amount of debt — $4.4 billion. "

Devon has one of the strognest Debt/EBITDA ratios in the energy business. For a company of Devon's size 4.4 isn't bad. It's just a big number that sounds scary.

"Guest said:
Went to Tulsa to see family this weekend. They are worried about the big hole being* left by Williams when they come to Devon*. It made me wonder what we would (or will?) do if Chesapeake or Devon ever sold or folded and left town. Lots of real estate involved in those two companies.

Steve Lackmeyer replied:
Devon is safe for now. We're almost certain to see part of the Chesapeake Energy campus put on the market as part of its bankruptcy proceedings. The office buildings are surrounded by top tier restaurants, shops, a Whole Foods and Trader Joe's so that makes me think the space might be attractive once we climb out of this pandemic."

Is Steve aware that Devon is buying WPX? Also that Williams is a midstream company? And that Williams market cap is nearly 7X that of Devon's?

----------


## Swake

To be fair, WPX was a spinoff of Williams.  Williams Production and eXploration, "WPX".

----------


## Pete

It was announced that Publisher/Editor Kelly Dyer Fry is retiring at the end of the year.

Not coincidently, it was reported yesterday that 600 employees of Gannett (the parent of the Oklahoman) were offered buy-outs in order to reduce staff. 

Not clear how Fry's duties will be handled after she leaves.  I suspect there will no longer be a Publisher role and even the editor responsibilities could be handled by a regional or national employee.

----------


## Pete

The front-page story of the Oklahoman today (Sunday) is on the convention center.

Virtually the entire thing was plagiarized from a press release (I posted the release in the Convention Center thread a few days ago) and the article fails to mention the reporter (guess who) never even spoke to the people he's quoting.

Not only is this outrageously unethical (to the point other newspapers have fired writers for the exact same thing) it calls into question virtually everything they print.  How do you know if they actually spoke to someone or if they are just lifting quotes from a PR-driven press release?  Also, how do you know if the subject hasn't merely provided something they want printed?

And worse yet, they take these releases then put them behind a paywall, asking people to 'support local journalism'.

Here is the "article":
https://oklahoman.com/article/567954...apital-project

Here is the press release:
https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.p...61#post1151161

----------


## soonergolfer

I’m guessing Steve doesn’t have time to be an actual journalist. He is too busy retweeting Trump slam tweets and COVID scare stories.

----------


## Pete

> I’m guessing Steve doesn’t have time to be an actual journalist. He is too busy retweeting Trump slam tweets and COVID scare stories.


Even though his Twitter feed is titled "Steve's OKC Central" which is the same name branded by the Oklahoman for his articles, a huge percentage of his tweets and retweets are political.  Then he gets all bent out of shape when political issues are raised in his chats and acts completely mystified why that happens.

And of course, he is constantly fighting with people on Twitter and very often blocks those who call him out and intermittently makes his feed private to block out dissenting voices.

He also claims questions about outlying areas are not his beat, but then is quick to steal our stories about things like the Paycom drive-in and all the Amazon facilities.  His beat seems to be downtown and anything he reads on OKCTalk.

----------


## king183

> Even though his Twitter feed is titled "Steve's OKC Central" which is the same name branded by the Oklahoman for his articles, a huge percentage of his tweets and retweets are political.  Then he gets all bent out of shape when political issues are raised in his chats and acts completely mystified why that happens.


I stopped following him because of his political tweets. It’s not that I agree or disagree with them; it’s just that I didn’t follow him to hear his political opinions, many of which are simply a reflection of what he thinks will get him “likes.” I followed him for information on OKC development and I already get enough ill-informed or like-seeking political posts from every other angle. I guess he’s welcome to do with his Twitter feed as he sees fit, but if I want to hear political opinions, I’m not following a local development reporter to fill that void.

----------


## Pete

^

He also does all this under the banner "Steve's OKC Central" and doesn't even bother with the obligatory 'all opinions are my own' disclaimer.

He uses the huge platform provided by the Oklahoman for very personal reasons and frequently embarrasses himself.  It says a lot about that publication that they allow him to do this under the banner they are providing.

Of note, he has lost followers over the last year or so (now under 19K) and I'm proud to say OKCTalk is very close to passing the 100K mark across the 3 big social media platforms (we'll eclipse that threshold sometime this month or next) and have well more on Instagram than even the Oklahoman.


I've noticed more and more of their reporters and their business editor plagiarizing press releases and taking stories from OKCTalk and claiming them as their own.  Any thin excuse revolves around their shrinking newsroom and lack of resources but at the same time, Steve seems to have unlimited availability to sit on Twitter all day every day and tweet thousands of times.

----------


## Video Expert

> Even though his Twitter feed is titled "Steve's OKC Central" which is the same name branded by the Oklahoman for his articles, a huge percentage of his tweets and retweets are political.  Then he gets all bent out of shape when political issues are raised in his chats and acts completely mystified why that happens.
> 
> And of course, he is constantly fighting with people on Twitter and very often blocks those who call him out and intermittently makes his feed private to block out dissenting voices.
> 
> He also claims questions about outlying areas are not his beat, but then is quick to steal our stories about things like the Paycom drive-in and all the Amazon facilities.  His beat seems to be downtown and anything he reads on OKCTalk.


This is so spot on.

----------


## Jersey Boss

Satire and laughter would be a good counterweight. A parody account along the lines of "Devins Cow" would provide this.

----------


## catch22

> Satire and laughter would be a good counterweight. A parody account along the lines of "Devins Cow" would provide this.


Many moons ago I started a Leve Stackmeyer twitter account. I'm not very creative at that sort of thing so I abandoned it - plus it fed his ego that he was worth being parodied. He's an easy target that doesn't play well with others - so he makes the target even bigger on himself.

----------


## 5alive

I try to not be negative in my comments...but...The Oklahoman's new website look so small market. Hard to believe.

----------


## Pete

^

I believe they finally converted to the GateHouse standard layout.

Just one more thing that has been outsourced and centralized.

----------


## Pete

They now have tons of auto-play video ads.

----------


## Brett

Same web layout as USA Today. I do appreciate not having an endless scroll of ancient news articles.

----------


## gopokes88

Omg. LOL. What a **** show.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Same web layout as USA Today. I do appreciate not having an endless scroll of ancient news articles.


The lack of *new* articles is a continuous embarrassment.

----------


## nighttrain12

Plus I no longer see places there to post comments on stories.    Are they afraid of dissenting viewpoints?

----------


## bucktalk

And yet they still charge $3.50 for the Sunday Oklahoman?!!?  I didn't realize they charged so much until I saw a paper recently while staying at the Bradford House. Unreal what they charge!!

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Plus I no longer see places there to post comments on stories.    Are they afraid of dissenting viewpoints?


i think they lack the personal to review the comments .

----------


## Pete

I give the Oklahoman a hard time but I do want them to succeed and they are doing what they have to do, which is being a part of a huge, centralized organization with essentially just a news bureau here.

People have no idea the difficulty and expense around print journalism.   Especially now.

----------


## Bellaboo

I took the dang paper ever day since 1978. Last year we cut back to 4 days a week. This past January we have had all we wanted out of them. They would miss us 3 out of the 4 days a week we were paying for. They've called back a couple times wanting us to renew and all we told them was it's been a relief not trying to track the paper down and no thanks, never again.

----------


## Pete

^

It's a business in which once you lose a customer -- for whatever reason -- it's almost impossible to get them back.

Also very hard to get new subscribers of any sort.

That adds up to a steady downward trajectory with the only hope being that you can hold onto some semblance of a reader base, which is increasingly difficult given all alternative news delivery systems out there.

I'm not sure what the future holds for print newspapers but it's hard to see how trends can be reversed.  At least owning a bunch of publications with a centralized core is a relatively fresh approach.

----------


## Bellaboo

All sports news in the print versions are a day late. I get all I need else where. It started several years back when they started printing the paper in Tulsa.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Newspapers have been trying to walk a fine line for the last 10-15 years and they are real close to the final product. Daily "papers" are now a features enterprise, and their editorial staff is pretty much 8 to 5 Monday through Friday. That subscriber base is pretty much bottomed out and they are within eyesight of break even. Most Steve Lackmeyer and Berry Trammel stories are not super time sensitive. The goal is for the legacy value of the name and economy of scale for breaking news departments of the overall multi-city operations to drive paywall subscribers. Comments do not have value because they are primarily grievance and/or political rants. 

As the population ages and becomes more internet focused, then Oklahoman . com subscribers will be willing to pay to get the breaking Thunder, OU/OSU football, high school sports and other "hyper local" content.  

I think there is a missing link where breaking news can be plugged into the print replica format in a low cost manner. So the reader can get the "newspaper replica" visual while getting quicker info.

----------


## ctchandler

I have a bum arm and bad eyesight and I gave up the hard copy fifteen years ago.  I have subscribed since 1965.  But I have read the print replica online since I quit the hard copy.  The lateness on the hard copy and print replica was due to the fact that it is printed in Tulsa.  I believe the digital is more up to date.
C. T.

----------


## cindycat

When the print edition is late (as it is today), I drag my breakfast to my computer desk and read the print replica...except that it's now called E-edition and it's not there either. Living on Tulsa Time!

----------


## Pete

Starting yesterday 3/17, the printed paper has changed format as well.

They now feature USA Today content in the front section of the paper. Also, the E-Edition has a completely new reader.  

In one swoop, the entire publication has been standardized to the same format as USA Today and hundreds of other GateHouse holdings.

----------


## BoulderSooner

remember Gatehouse   is now Gannett

----------


## soonerguru

The new print version looks nice, the Website is slightly more attractive, but it still features dated articles as well. What is sad is they have let so many reporters go their coverage of serious news is extremely limited, and when they do cover it, they rarely follow it up. They are letting the Stitt Admin get away with murder. It's a far cry from the days when they would publicly destroy a politician for a DUI (not saying that is the standard they should aspire to).

The Tulsa World website is considerably better. The best newspaper websites are NYT and WaPo.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Praise Jesus! The print replica is available again on my iPad! When the changeover to the USA Today format happened a couple weeks ago we were told the print replica was going to be "temporarily unavailable" on tablets and other mobile type devices. I figured I was exiled to having to read the print replica on my laptop forever. But no! GateHouse/Gannett actually made the change.

----------


## catcherinthewry

Is anyone else unable to download the print edition of The Oklahoman today? When I click "Editions" the latest edition is the 13th.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Is anyone else unable to download the print edition of The Oklahoman today? When I click "Editions" the latest edition is the 13th.


Same here.    Really dislike new website as far as ability to access and navigate e-edition

----------


## catcherinthewry

Finally up at 8:30. What a joke.

----------


## catcherinthewry

Well, I finally got it to download, but the print version is so blurry it's unreadable.

----------


## unfundedrick

> Well, I finally got it to download, but the print version is so blurry it's unreadable.


I never download it.  I just read it on line and I never have a problem with it being blurry.

----------


## Pete

They didn't mention this when Kelly Dyer Fry 'retired' but the new editor of the Oklahoman oversees 42 newspapers.




> I’m Ray Rivera, the new executive editor of The Oklahoman. I also oversee Gannett’s Sunbelt region, which encompasses some 42 daily and weekly newspapers in Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico and Colorado.



In this piece printed today, he said is passionate about local news:

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...rs/7260049002/


Yet, in today's Sunday paper, none of the 6 of the articles in the business section were local nor were they written by local staff.

----------


## TheTravellers

I don't have a Twitter account, so I apparently can't see slackmeyer's tweets (a reporter making their tweets private - WTF?), does anybody know if his Friday live chat ever showed back up since the website overhaul?  Every so often, it did have some actual useful/interesting information...

----------


## catch22

> I don't have a Twitter account, so I apparently can't see slackmeyer's tweets (a reporter making their tweets private - WTF?), does anybody know if his Friday live chat ever showed back up since the website overhaul?  Every so often, it did have some actual useful/interesting information...


You’re not alone. He blocked me, and I have had nearly zero interaction with him over the years. His list of blocked accounts is long. He is rather immature.

----------


## TheTravellers

> You’re not alone. He blocked me, and I have had nearly zero interaction with him over the years. His list of blocked accounts is long. He is rather immature.


Interesting, I went to Twitter to see what the actual message said, and it appears his tweets are public again. I don't have a Twitter account, so it's not about him blocking me, the original message I saw was something along the lines of "You don't have permission to view this account's tweets".

----------


## David

There is absolutely no shame in blocking people on social media. If it happens to you you just need to accept that it did and move on.

----------


## OkiePoke

Steve is pretty quick to click that block button. He blocked me a few years ago because I was tagged in a comment. :shrug:

He has stated he is trying to be better about it though.

----------


## onthestrip

> They didn't mention this when Kelly Dyer Fry 'retired' but the new editor of the Oklahoman oversees 42 newspapers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this piece printed today, he said is passionate about local news:
> 
> https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...rs/7260049002/
> 
> ...


And the real estate content, while not much to begin with, is pretty much gone. Saturdays were the day for that and its basically nothing now.

All these things yet they still charge $800+ a year for a subscription and delivery. They have to be shedding dozens of subscribers daily.

----------


## Pete

It's now basically re-packaged USA Today content with a bit of local news scattered in.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> It's now basically re-packaged USA Today content with a bit of local news scattered in.


Possible improvement?

----------


## Pete

^

As much as anyone in OKC, I completely empathize with their difficulties.

But not sure why people would subscribe to a paper that endlessly promotes itself as local when the growing majority of its content is not.  And national/regional news is easy to find.

And really, almost all the truly local stuff can be found elsewhere and is not only free but generally more timely.


I know a lot of us are emotionally tied to having a local, daily newspaper but the truth is the reasons we got in the habit of reading it in the first place have mostly evaporated.

I'm not sure they even deserve to call themselves local; they are about as local as an Applebee's:  part of a huge conglomerate, most decisions made elsewhere, profits don't stay in state, with some local employees.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I'm beginning to see the finished format for "local" newspapers (At least those that do not have a local billionaire acting as an angel investor and propping them up). 

1. Eliminate print. Have a print replica that will be tolerated by all but the oldest readers. And they are dying quickly enough now to make it work.

2. Own enough different papers to create a decent national network of content. Standardize the majority of the daily edition so that 25% of the news section is local; 20% of business; 65% of sports. Obituaries and want ads are almost all local. Focus as much as possible on content that can be chosen by 3PM daily.

3. Create a "national subscription"; make it where a person can read any paper in the network with one subscription and one price. 

I think the current Oklahoman is 70% of the way there.   

2.

----------


## catch22

nvm

----------


## Scott5114

This is kinda funny. I found an article from 2009 where Don Gammill straight up just copy and pasted from Wikipedia. How do I know? Because I was the one who wrote the section of the article he copied from!

----------


## Pete

I took a quick look at today's Oklahoman and counted the articles that were written locally vs. those from wires, USAToday, etc.

Of 65 articles, only 18 were written by Oklahoman writers, and that includes briefs that are just transcribed press releases.  That is less than 28% of their content.

Of those 18, 11 were in the sports section.

In the main news section, only 4 of 20 were written locally.

----------


## soonergolfer

I noticed they don’t print property sales or building permits anymore on Saturdays. Since Steve never writes anything, he should at least track this stuff.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I noticed they don’t print property sales or building permits anymore on Saturdays. Since Steve never writes anything, he should at least track this stuff.


He used to have the Tuesday column, but he writes a lot less these days.

----------


## WheelerD Guy

> He used to have the Tuesday column, but he writes a lot less these days.


Is he mainly doing the weekly chat?

----------


## cindycat

> I took a quick look at today's Oklahoman and counted the articles that were written locally vs. those from wires, USAToday, etc.
> 
> Of 65 articles, only 18 were written by Oklahoman writers, and that includes briefs that are just transcribed press releases.  That is less than 28% of their content.
> 
> Of those 18, 11 were in the sports section.
> 
> In the main news section, only 4 of 20 were written locally.


The 3/23/21 edition - I guess they didn't have enough huge ads to fill the "local news" space, so they ran an article about Covid cases on Mt Everest...twice. Once in Sports and again in Business. 
And on a silly side note: In an article about the Osage movie, the print edition shows a photo of a man from Pawnshop. Hmmm

----------


## Pete

Received this email today:

**************

We are thrilled to share this news with you!

Beginning June 1st, we are replacing the EXTRA section in The Oklahoman e-Edition with the USA TODAY edition. You will now have access to one of the country’s most read newspapers and get more than 90 additional pages of content a week. An innovator of news and information, USA TODAY reflects the pulse of the nation and serves as the host of the American conversation, especially on key topics like news, sports, travel, entertainment and personal finance.

The USA TODAY edition will be available Monday through Friday every week and will appear right inside your current e-Edition which you can access at digital.newsok.com/Olive/ODN/Oklahoman/default.aspx.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Received this email today:
> 
> **************
> 
> We are thrilled to share this news with you!
> 
> Beginning June 1st, we are replacing the EXTRA section in The Oklahoman e-Edition with the USA TODAY edition. You will now have access to one of the country’s most read newspapers and get more than 90 additional pages of content a week. An innovator of news and information, USA TODAY reflects the pulse of the nation and serves as the host of the American conversation, especially on key topics like news, sports, travel, entertainment and personal finance.
> 
> The USA TODAY edition will be available Monday through Friday every week and will appear right inside your current e-Edition which you can access at digital.newsok.com/Olive/ODN/Oklahoman/default.aspx.


We are thrilled! Enjoy even less local news!

----------


## unfundedrick

> We are thrilled! Enjoy even less local news!


The EXTRA section had no local news so no local news is being deleted or replaced.

----------


## OkiePoke

> The 3/23/21 edition - I guess they didn't have enough huge ads to fill the "local news" space, so they ran an article about Covid cases on Mt Everest...twice. Once in Sports and again in Business. 
> And on a silly side note: In an article about the Osage movie, the print edition shows a photo of a man from Pawnshop. Hmmm


I didn't read the article, but there is a mother/daughter team from OKC that is climbing Everest and just got turned back because they had a Covid outbreak in their team. It may be releated.

----------


## Pete

Not like their food 'reviews' were ever anything other than blind cheerleading, but they have very subtly crossed a journalistic line.

Dave Cathey is doing an entire series on wings and it was barely mentioned in the first article that Buffalo Wild Wings is sponsoring it.

They just posted a video about BWW and didn't mention the sponsorship there.


You ALWAYS should mention when you are doing paid content -- which you shouldn't be doing at all apart from maybe some clearly identified social media posts.

Otherwise, there is no distinction between advertisement and legitimate authored content.


FWIW, I don't even like going to tastings and soft openings where you are given things for free.  I'd much rather go opening day, support the business with my money, then not feel beholden to them in any way.  I did this at Rendezvous and now will forever be their first-ever paying customer.

----------


## king183

I’ve noticed this happening more often in local tv news as well. They will have businesses on to talk about the services they offer, but frame it as a new story instead of an ad. It’s awful. This morning News9 had a moving company on for a segment to “give people advice” on how to pack for a move, but it was clearly just an ill-disguised ad for their company. Journalism from the traditional sources is dying in this state—if it hadn’t died already.

----------


## mugofbeer

> I’ve noticed this happening more often in local tv news as well. They will have businesses on to talk about the services they offer, but frame it as a new story instead of an ad. It’s awful. This morning News9 had a moving company on for a segment to “give people advice” on how to pack for a move, but it was clearly just an ill-disguised ad for their company. Journalism from the traditional sources is dying in this state—if it hadn’t died already.


They do the same thing in Denver with mortgage companies, a window manufacturer and a leafless gutter company.  It's not just OKC.

----------


## Pete

A certain alt-weekly in OKC started paid content 'articles' the first issue after I left.

In 40 years, not only was that never done, there was a great effort to put up a wall between editorial and sales -- figuratively and literally.  So much so, sales never knew in advance what was going to be covered.

So many legacy publications use the excuse of struggle (all of their own making) to throw virtually any sense of ethics out the window.

----------


## Pete

> They do the same thing in Denver with mortgage companies, a window manufacturer and a leafless gutter company.  It's not just OKC.


How do you know?  Do they identify it as paid advertising?

If so, that makes it slightly less repugnant.

----------


## mugofbeer

(Oh, law firm's, too) They are repeating segment with actors sitting at folding tables anwering 1970s black telephones. They are basically like 2-3 minute infomercials.

----------


## Ginkasa

Seems relevant to the current conversation, particularly considering The Oklahoman's ownership:

Did USA Today Run a ‘Front Page’ Ad With Fake Stories About Hybrid Babies? (Snopes.com)

----------


## Pete

This is the key point:




> The Society for Professional Journalists code of ethics holds that ethical advertising should “distinguish news from advertising and shun hybrids that blur the lines between the two.”

----------


## TheTravellers

> A certain alt-weekly in OKC started paid content 'articles' the first issue after I left....


That explains the sh!t Sonic Seltzer "story", then...

----------


## mugofbeer

> This is the key point:
> 
> The Society for Professional Journalists code of ethics holds that ethical advertising should “distinguish news from advertising and shun hybrids that blur the lines between the two.”


I'm going to carefully watch these adds l talked about to see exactly how they are presented and send the quote if they aren't distinguished as advertisements.  Thanks for this.

----------


## Pete

If you ever wonder the degree to which the Oklahoman bows down to big local companies like Devon, read this 'article' from today's paper.  This is not news in any way shape or form, it's flat-out PR that almost certainly came from Devon's PR department.

Reminder that Jack Money (the author here) and Steve Lackmeyer co-wrote a book on Devon Tower called Operation Scissortail.  I know for a fact that Devon approached them to write it in order to get the story published.

It contains this gem, which is absolutely incorrect.  Devon insisted the tax revenue that was to be generated by its new complex be taken from the general fund that would largely go to public education and spend it to improve streets (the infamous Project 180) and the Myriad Gardens which would be outside their front door:  


> A tax increment financing district created to provide Devon with funds to help it complete its project raised about $156 million that the oil and gas operator signed over to city officials


Devon Energy's impact on Oklahoma City, state towers tall after 50 years

----------


## Midtowner

Wow.. yup.. 

But that's essentially what the Oklahoman has always been since foudning--a cheerleader/mouthpiece for the Chamber folks. There is virtually zero public knowledge as to how TIFs work and how they are legally robbing money from public education. How much could OKCPS have done with an extra $180MM? Clearly, lots.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Wow.. yup.. 
> 
> But that's essentially what the Oklahoman has always been since foudning--a cheerleader/mouthpiece for the Chamber folks. There is virtually zero public knowledge as to how TIFs work and how they are legally robbing money from public education. How much could OKCPS have done with an extra $180MM?



as with most things this is not that black and white .......

----------


## Midtowner

> as with most things this is not that black and white .......


Devon was building their tower regardless of TIF financing for the surrounding area. 

The TIF is paid off mostly by dollars which would have gone to public schools. 

Is it not fair to respond to a puff piece about the good Devon does in the community by pointing out that they took well north of $100MM out of our public schools to beautify their campus?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Devon was building their tower regardless of TIF financing for the surrounding area.


this is not something that is provable ..  


just as i can say that the city would have given Devon the same TIF deal even if they spend every dime on their building and property  and not spend any of it on P180 or the MGB      (i can't prove that but it seems likely)   

so then that brings the question    are we better off that devon wanted to make down town (around their building) a better place ?

----------


## king183

I took a look at the Norman Transcript for the first time in years and was shocked to see they are also operating with similar practices. In this case, they simply printed a press release from a politician as if it were a legitimate news story ("Pittman’s Legislation helps Boost Oklahoma’s Economy"). It's borderline propaganda. It's sad Oklahoma's largest and third largest city papers can't be trusted to provide unvarnished journalism.

----------


## Midtowner

> this is not something that is provable ..


Oh goodie then, so what you're suggesting is that you think that Devon held the city hostage for $180MM from public schools or it would have taken its business elsewhere? That is not a better look.

----------


## Pete

> Oh goodie then, so what you're suggesting is that you think that Devon held the city hostage for $180MM from public schools or it would have taken its business elsewhere? That is not a better look.


They pretty much said that; that they would consider moving to Houston if the city didn't agree to their terms.

----------


## Urbanized

> Oh goodie then, so what you're suggesting is that you think that Devon held the city hostage for $180MM from public schools or it would have taken its business elsewhere? That is not a better look.





> They pretty much said that; that they would consider moving to Houston if the city didn't agree to their terms.


I'm sorry, these are also incomplete retellings.

The TIF instrument and overlay already existed for downtown prior to the Devon TIF. If they had not worked with the City to create a separate TIF the money still would have been collected, and still would have been utilized for downtown economic development. And the TIF district overlay was negotiated with all parties affected, including the schools. They LITERALLY had to sign off on it prior to passage. The reasoning was that a high tide lifts all boats, and that general base collections would ALSO go up  in the surrounding area, which they most certainly have.

What the Devon TIF did was earmark the NEW money generated from the new assessments generated by Devon tower above the then-existing benchmark, which took the property values on that site from roughly zero (essentially surface parking with some subsurface) to in the neighborhood of $750 million. Meaning value that pre-existed was still directed to the same taxing entities at the same level, but anything OVER the baseline went to the Devon TIF.

So now, instead of the excess generated funds going to the general TIF - which typically funds public infrastructure improvements adjacent to new development at a rate of the expected new tax to be generated by said development over a proscribed period of time - it went into a fund that Devon specified, which included all of Project 180 AND a roughly $30 million renovation of Myriad Botanical Gardens (which shortly after completion won national awards).

Now, it's fair to criticize the incomplete nature of P180 or whatever, but Devon COULD have insisted that the monies generated from the new TIF be spent immediately adjacent to their campus, and instead they asked to have it spent downtown-wide AND at MBG. Or, they could have left it alone and the monies STILL would have gone into a TIF district.

Also would really like to see any evidence where Devon threatened to leave for Houston if the Devon TIF wasn't passed. I saw the proposal document and they put on a full dog and pony show for OCURA and everyone else involved that honestly came off a bit hat in hand. As if they had to work to convince these people that they had value (this was when Chesapeake was doing really splashy things and getting all of the good headlines).

What I do remember is Larry Nichols admitting pretty publicly AFTER MAPS was getting traction that they had been really thankful when it was passed because quality of life investments had been key strategy for luring job seekers who otherwise would not have even considered OKC previously. He said that MAPS had probably saved Devon for OKC, and had it not passed (again, past tense) that they may have been forced to relocate to Houston like so many other Oklahoma-based energy companies. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's certainly how I recall all of it.

----------


## Pete

> So now, instead of the excess generated funds going to the general TIF - which typically funds public infrastructure improvements adjacent to new development at a rate of the expected new tax to be generated by said development over a proscribed period of time - it went into a fund that Devon specified, which included all of Project 180 AND a roughly $30 million renovation of Myriad Botanical Gardens (which shortly after completion won national awards).
> 
> Now, it's fair to criticize the incomplete nature of P180 or whatever, but Devon COULD have insisted that the monies generated from the new TIF be spent immediately adjacent to their campus, and instead they asked to have it spent downtown-wide AND at MBG. Or, they could have left it alone and the monies STILL would have gone into a TIF district.


First of all, this line "TIF - which typically funds public infrastructure improvements adjacent to new development " is often repeated by the Oklahoman and is utterly false.  TIF money is granted to a developer directly, and they can use it for any part of their development.  A very small amount of TIF has been used for parking garages.

Secondly, yes there was an existing TIF but what Devon did is demand a new district be created specifically for their project and then they dictated exactly how that money would be spent (primarily on MGB and Project 180 which ended up being the streets and sidewalks all around their campus).  Larry Nichols sits on the Devon TIF committee and also chairs the Alliance and OCURA, so he and his allies basically made all the decisions where that money would go, which was generally in a concentric pattern from Devon (which is why there was no money left for Broadway, EK Gaylord, and about half what was originally promised).

Third, there is a ton of flexibility in the general downtown TIF and a good chunk went to John Rex and the new OKCPS HQ, among other school-related projects.  Zero funds from the Devon TIF went towards education.

And fourth, TIF districts run 25 years in OKC, the max allowed by the state constitution.  The downtown TIF had been in place for 8 years before Devon came along, which means the Devon TIF will run 8 years longer than would have otherwise been the case.

----------


## Pete

Devon Chief Executive Larry Nichols told the council his company expects the city to provide public improvements to create an appropriate environment for a world headquarters. The company plans to build more than 1 million square feet of space on the northeast corner of Sheridan and Hudson avenues, just north of Myriad Gardens. “It is not, in many ways, a logical place to put a building of this size,” Nichols said. “We do have people inside Devon and people in Houston that think a corporate headquarters of this size and magnitude in our industry is more appropriate to be located, quite frankly, in Houston.

“But that’s a problem we can fix,” he said. “We have imposed two conditions on our ability to build this building. And that is both to fix up the neighborhood and help bring other businesses into Oklahoma City.”


https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.p...699#post186699

----------


## Urbanized

^^^^^^
Read that last statement of his however you want, but certainly I don’t read it as a threat to move but instead an acknowledgement that it would have probably made more business sense to relocate to Houston (for reasons I’ve outlined above) or at the very least to relocate to the OKC suburbs where land is cheap and you can put whatever you want around your building (see Paycom, among others).

Instead, Devon (who answers to shareholders) made a much, MUCH more expensive commitment to downtown OKC with clear intent to help take OKC to another level, where relocation to another city was no longer a foregone conclusion (Oklahoma had lost multiple Fortune 500 companies in the years preceding).

Also, he made good on the statement that it would help relocate other companies, which clearly happened with Continental among others.

This was strategic for Devon but also for OKC and for DOWNTOWN OKC, and was exactly within the spirit of what the original downtown TIF was designed to do; to make downtown (and by extension the whole city) competitive with other places, and an attractive option and job market.

Furthermore the oohing and ahhing we regularly make on this board regarding the liveliness of the downtown area likely would have been much more muted were MBG still the same tired place it was and were our streets and sidewalks downtown bereft of the P180 improvements that WERE made.

And I think a very good case could be made that our sales tax and property tax collections would be not nearly so robust has they have been in the past decade, or even now at the (hopeful) tail end of a pandemic.

Obviously, the commodities market has changed since then and I have no idea what the future holds for the energy sector. But I think downtown (and by extension OKC) is much better off thanks to the changes made by MAPS, the downtown TIF and yes, the Devon TIF.

I think it’s fair to debate the merits of incentives and of TIF specifically, but to only refer to these things in a subtractive sense and to make no attempt whatsoever to quantify the benefit - or even to deny that it exists - is an incomplete retelling, I’m sorry.

----------


## Pete

^

I've written extensively on TIF elsewhere, and have given an hour-long town hall presentation on the subject.

This is well-covered territory, although many keep getting the basic facts wrong.


BTW, since this is a thread about the Oklahoman and this was kicked off by my posting about a ridiculous 'article' that had to come from Devon itself, I'll point out that Nichols & Co. made the decision to allocate part of the Devon TIF to the Oklahoman.

----------


## Urbanized

I wholeheartedly agree that many continue to get the basic facts surrounding TIF wrong.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> BTW, since this is a thread about the Oklahoman and this was kicked off by my posting about a ridiculous 'article' that had to come from Devon itself, I'll point out that Nichols & Co. made the decision to allocate part of the Devon TIF to the Oklahoman.


which IIRC  we talked about how crazy that was at the time  that a non building owner got TIF funds for their office buildout /move            I believe that is still the one and only time TIF funds have been used in that way ..

----------


## onthestrip

> which IIRC  we talked about how crazy that was at the time  that a non building owner got TIF funds for their office buildout /move            I believe that is still the one and only time TIF funds have been used in that way ..


And not for some new business that came to town. It was simply to have a company move from one part of OKC to another part of OKC. Not to mention a few years later they've seriously downsized and dont employ near the amount they once did. Return on this investment probably wont ever come.

----------


## gopokes88

I'm not going to get into the TIF thing but I will say this (excluding majority state owned oil companies like Equinor or Lukoil) Devon is now the 10th largest oil company by market cap. In the recent M&A phase Devon was a hunter not the hunted. It's a good thing they're down there even if the cost is high.

----------


## David

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but it seems maybe relevant since it impacts The Oklahoman.

Starting from: https://twitter.com/StormeJones/stat...04794996666376




> NEW: News9 parent company Griffin Communications has purchased downtown OKCs Century Center, home of The Oklahoman Newspaper. The $26 Million investment will move News9 newsroom, studios & corporate offices downtown.
> 
> CEO David Griffin says theyve worked closely with Gannett and The Oklahoman to remain as tenants in the building. The company also announced plans to launch a Media Innovation Collective (MIC) co-working space for non-profit and for-profit media organizations at the new location.
> 
> The investment includes $10 Million for a new set, IT infrastructure and security upgrades. Griffin says the move should be complete by the summer of 2022.
> 
> Griffin says closing is set for the beginning of August. Demo will begin in September.

----------


## HOT ROD

I mentioned this in the other thread but if I were a corp planner Id arrange the building as follows:

1st floor: News9 studios and reporter offices/touchdown areas, Oklahoman studios, media incubator and studios, reception and community facilities
2nd floor: Griffin HQ offices, OPUBCO HQ offices, Oklahoman reporter offices and touchdown, Ganett Oklahoma Regional HQ offices
roof: possible helipad

----------


## riflesforwatie

This might be better for one of the nostalgia or history threads but it relates specifically to The Oklahoman so I'll start here, I guess. Does anyone have experience with The Oklahoman's archives? I've been using them somewhat extensively recently but it seems like only certain years are fully searchable, and even in the years that are fully searchable, I find a substantial number of articles that are completely illegible (not that unusual for old newspapers, TBH) or where the rest of the article "after the jump" is orphaned from its parent. I seriously doubt that the paper itself has the resources nowadays to fix its archives but I'm wondering if some of the libraries have better/more searchable archives than The Oklahoman itself.

----------


## Pete

This is the weirdest thing ever...

They have Berry Tramel -- the sports columnist -- writing about Castle Falls (a restaurant and event venue):

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...am/5645651001/

----------


## catcherinthewry

> This is the weirdest thing ever...
> 
> They have Berry Tramel -- the sports columnist -- writing about Castle Falls (a restaurant and event venue):


Not really that weird. Having read Tramel for years it's easy to see his love of history. And in recent years he's been writing a travel blog where he writes about the interesting places and food he experiences.

----------


## Pete

> Not really that weird. Having read Tramel for years it's easy to see his love of history. And in recent years he's been writing a travel blog where he writes about the interesting places and food he experiences.


Can you point to an example of where he has written an article for the paper (not a blog) about something other than sports?

And wasn't that travel blog completely tied to visiting places for sports coverage?

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Can you point to an example of where he has written an article for the paper (not a blog) about something other than sports?
> 
> And wasn't that travel blog completely tied to visiting places for sports coverage?


Although I'm not a Tramel historian, I do remember him writing non-sports related stories over the years. I particularly remember him writing about one of the big tornadoes. As for his travel blogs, I first noticed them on his trip to Italy a few years ago. He's a gifted and well rounded writer. I'm not saying that this article wasn't a departure from his usual fare, but it does fit into two of his passions.

----------


## gopokes88

He wrote some stuff about his trip to Maine and lobsters one summer.

I think Berry is at the point he'll write whatever he wants too and they'll publish it. He's awesome.

----------


## Pete

Tramel is definitely the best media writer in the state.

----------


## Pete

I went to high school with Amy Rollins the owner of Castle Falls.

We just talked on the phone and Amy and her husband are friends with Tramel.  The Oklahoman is doing a series called Landmarks Around Us and this article was part of that.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

> I went to high school with Amy Rollins the owner of Castle Falls.
> 
> We just talked on the phone and Amy and her husband are friends with Tramel.  The Oklahoman is doing a series called Landmarks Around Us and this article was part of that.


Is that the series that runs every Sunday? Been going on for month to 6 weeks IIRC.

----------


## Pete

> Is that the series that runs every Sunday? Been going on for month to 6 weeks IIRC.


Yes.




> A weekly feature called “The Landmarks Around Us,” exploring the history and background of the special places right in front of us that we often ignore or take for granted, like murals, historical markers, or maybe that hole-in-the-wall family caf that has become a neighborhood institution. Knowing the stories and the history of the notable buildings, statues, murals and other landmarks around us enriches our everyday experience and can make an ordinary walk through the city seem like a stroll through a living museum.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I went to high school with Amy Rollins the owner of Castle Falls.
> 
> We just talked on the phone and Amy and her husband are friends with Tramel.  The Oklahoman is doing a series called Landmarks Around Us and this article was part of that.


the one benefit is that Tram is actually a pretty good writer ..  which is not always the case at that paper

----------


## unfundedrick

> I went to high school with Amy Rollins the owner of Castle Falls.
> 
> We just talked on the phone and Amy and her husband are friends with Tramel.  The Oklahoman is doing a series called Landmarks Around Us and this article was part of that.


I belonged to a business networking group a number of years ago that met for lunch.  Amy and Ralph were members and I got to know them well.  They are great people.

----------


## catcherinthewry

No edition on Labor Day. How soon before they quit printing 7 days a week?

----------


## Jeepnokc

> No edition on Labor Day. How soon before they quit printing 7 days a week?


Looks like they did an edition but didn't load properly.  I got three pages of the paper'  Front page. A15 and the comics.  A15 is missing half the content.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Looks like they did an edition but didn't load properly.  I got three pages of the paper'  Front page. A15 and the comics.  A15 is missing half the content.


That's all you're going to get. They said they're not printing a Labor Day edition.

----------


## Bellaboo

^^^ took this paper since 1978. Quit this last January and this is just another reason not to renew. They would miss delivery about a third of the time and never got a replacement copy. Blamed Covid and everything else. Not worth fighting them so just let it go.

----------


## catcherinthewry

Their delivery was so unreliable that I switched to a digital subscription, but I still like to read the print replica edition of it. The Oklahoman like many newspapers has really gone downhill in the last decade.

----------


## turnpup

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...an/5741595001/

----------


## Laramie

> Looks like they did an edition but didn't load properly.  I got three pages of the paper'  Front page. A15 and the comics.  A15 is missing half the content.


Thanks for posting Jeepnokc.  I thought something was wrong with my computer when I viewed on 3 pages of this morning paper and was making arrangements for a Geek Squad rep to come out.  You saved me some out-of-pocket expenses.

----------


## Richard at Remax

I keep getting offers for $1 for 6 months for a subscriptions. Why not just make it free at that point? On the other hand, yes it is a dollar. Such a hard choice lol

----------


## Pete

> I keep getting offers for $1 for 6 months for a subscriptions. Why not just make it free at that point? On the other hand, yes it is a dollar. Such a hard choice lol


Because they want your credit card info so when you forget to cancel after 6 months, you get hit with a much higher auto-renewal rate.

----------


## Martin

> Because they want your credit card info so when you forget to cancel after 6 months, you get hit with a much higher auto-renewal rate.


i wonder if they'd process payment from a visa gift card...

----------


## barrettd

> i wonder if they'd process payment from a visa gift card...


They will. That's the only way I could cancel my subscription, transfer my payment method to a near empty card.

----------


## Pete

The Oklahoman is not printing a paper today or Christmas day.

That has to be a first.

----------


## turnpup

^^^

I was trying to remember if they did this last Christmas as well.

----------


## Swake

Shouldn't the Christmas Day paper be a big money maker for them with ads and inserts for after Christmas sales? The day after Christmas is something like the 3rd or 4th busiest shopping day of the year.

----------


## Pete

> ^^^
> 
> I was trying to remember if they did this last Christmas as well.


They printed on both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day last year and all the years before.

----------


## Martin

from what i understand, there will be no delivery on new year's eve or new year's day, either.

----------


## Jeepnokc

It is starting to get like deja vu reading the paper as they seem to be getting worse about recycling stories.  For example, in today's paper is a story about whether you should cancel your cruise.  I read the same article last week.  Pretty sure I read it in the "bonus" edition which is basically USA today.  This appears to be happening more and more that they recycle several days later.

----------


## turnpup

> from what i understand, there will be no delivery on new year's eve or new year's day, either.



That is correct. There was an announcement to that effect in today's paper.

----------


## soonergolfer

If you rely on getting your news from the paper or wanting to read about OU's Alamo Bowl victory on Wednesday night, you apparently have to wait until Sunday's newspaper.  Lol

----------


## catcherinthewry

The Oklahoman has several Alamo Bowl articles available online, but it is still ridiculous that they are publishing a print version.

----------


## unfundedrick

> The Oklahoman has several Alamo Bowl articles available online, but it is still ridiculous that they are publishing a print version.


I'm a subscriber and definitely want them to continue with a print version.  I have a number of various very usefully things that I use printed newspapers for besides reading.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I'm a subscriber and definitely want them to continue with a print version.  I have a number of various very usefully things that I use printed newspapers for besides reading.


My fault. I meant to say it's ridiculous that they are NOT publishing a print edition.

----------


## Pete

As the Oklahoman is working towards consolidating to a small fraction of the space in the Century Center they took just several years ago (just 94 desks vs. the 350 jobs they claimed were moving downtown in order to get $1.5 million in TIF money), I did some research on their self-reported circulation.

No matter how badly you think they are doing, these numbers are still shocking:

Average daily circulation 1996:  307.064
Average daily circulation 2020:    50,362


For some reason, they didn't print their annual Statement of Ownership for 2021 but I suspect the numbers have only dropped further.

----------


## MagzOK

> As the Oklahoman is working towards consolidating to a small fraction of the space in the Century Center they took just several years ago (just 94 desks vs. the 350 jobs they claimed were moving downtown in order to get $1.5 million in TIF money), I did some research on their self-reported circulation.
> 
> No matter how badly you think they are doing, these numbers are still shocking:
> 
> Average daily circulation 1996:  307.064
> Average daily circulation 2020:    50,362
> 
> 
> For some reason, they didn't print their annual Statement of Ownership for 2021 but I suspect the numbers have only dropped further.


I used to take the paper religiously, but stopped about 10 years ago because I just wasn't reading it.  Most of the time I was tossing it into the recycling bin unopened.  News has just evolved to the point that newspapers are obsolete.  My elderly dad still takes the paper and is an avid reader, but he's not tied into instant news that most of society is anymore.

I also attempted over the years to get on board with the Oklahoman's digital platform but it really was very quirky.  I think it has become better recently, more easily navigable, but that hasn't always been the case.

----------


## Pete

^

Case in point, the Oklahoman just today published a near-exact copy of the Kroger story we broke.  13 days ago.

----------


## midtownokcer

Received a notice that The Oklahoman is ending access to its archives through libraries. Really a shame. A couple of years ago it was discovered just about anyone could access the archives from the link below. No one ever fixed it even after letting them know. Public and academic libraries paid the big bucks for these archives. 

https://digital.olivesoftware.com/ol...spx#panel=home

----------


## mugofbeer

> ^
> 
> Case in point, the Oklahoman just today published a near-exact copy of the Kroger story we broke.  13 days ago.


Nothing like scooping the major newspaper by 2 weeks!  Congrats!

----------


## barrettd

> Received a notice that The Oklahoman is ending access to its archives through libraries. Really a shame. A couple of years ago it was discovered just about anyone could access the archives from the link below. No one ever fixed it even after letting them know. Public and academic libraries paid the big bucks for these archives. 
> 
> https://digital.olivesoftware.com/ol...spx#panel=home


That's too bad. I really enjoy having that access through my library card.

----------


## Pete

This is really just pathetically sad.

Lackmeyer is now just sitting on the OKCTalk feed, duplicating anything we report, and the Oklahoman usually puts the story behind a paywall making people pay for something we already reported for free.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...ol/9153939002/

----------


## barrettd

The Oklahoman putting up a paywall for very little local content is so on brand. I rarely even visit the website anymore, but the lack of local content or actual reporting predates the paywall, and it seems it's even getting worse.

----------


## HangryHippo

> The Oklahoman putting up a paywall for very little local content is so on brand. I rarely even visit the website anymore, but the lack of local content or actual reporting predates the paywall, and it seems it's even getting worse.


Same. Anything of interest is now behind the subscribers only block and everything else is old OKCTalk news. I hardly visit the site anymore and when I do, I never make it past the homepage.

----------


## Richard at Remax

> I keep getting offers for $1 for 6 months for a subscriptions. Why not just make it free at that point? On the other hand, yes it is a dollar. Such a hard choice lol


They caught me. It's now $27 for 6 months

----------


## king183

I honestly forgot The Oklahoman exists. I think I ultimately put them out of my mind several months ago when I saw a breaking story about a new downtown area development. As I was reading the story, I couldnt help but think I had already read about that same, new development before. Indeed, once I checked, I had read about it on OKCTalk literally several months prior to The Oklahoman story. I thought maybe it was a case of The Oklahoman re-publishing old stories, but it was dated that day.  The only difference between the information in the OKCTalk story and The Oklahomans was The Oklahomans reporter got a few generic quotes from the developereverything else was almost an exact copy of OKCTalks report. I cant remember what development story it was, but Ill try to find it for entertainments sake.

----------


## Pete

^

It's what Lackmeyer in particular does, but others at the Oklahoman do pretty much the same thing.

Lets us (me) do all the work, then takes the same info and adds some meaningless quotes to try and make it look like they somehow didn't do exactly what they did.

The recent Kroger story is a particularly egregious example.  I worked really hard on that and had to talk to a bunch of different people and do substantial research before I put all the pieces together.  Lackmeyer just completely duplicates all the information we sourced without doing any new work, then gets a typical non-statement from Kroger.  Did the exact same thing with QuikTrip and many others.

He's like the kid in class that swears he knew the answers that everyone else gives.  Worse yet, these 'stories' are typically prominently featured both in the paper and on their website, and almost always behind paywalls.  And typically, just one of the few 'local' stories in a sea of USAToday content.


All this is outrageously unethical but bothers me a whole lot less since OKCTalk has its own massive following.  We just passed 135,000 social media followers and gained 40,000 just last year alone.  And our engagement numbers are exponentially larger than the Oklahoman or really any social media accounts in Oklahoma, with those figures continuously climbing.

I also realize that even among the few remaining supporters of Lackmeyer and the Oklahoman, they know exactly what they are doing as they all follow OKCTalk.

----------


## barrettd

This site has really filled my need for local news and information, and it's much more interesting and informative than the Oklahoman has been in years.

----------


## Pete

And, right on cue, duplicates the news about OnCue:

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...rd/9171365002/

----------


## HangryHippo

> And, right on cue, duplicates the news about OnCue:
> 
> https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...rd/9171365002/


Embarrassing.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Pete, have you ever called the Oklahoman and tried to discuss it? That is just shameless what Steve is doing.

----------


## Pete

> Pete, have you ever called the Oklahoman and tried to discuss it? That is just shameless what Steve is doing.


Yes.  I've talked to their business editor who just gave me the brush-off.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Yes.  I've talked to their business editor who just gave me the brush-off.


Of course.

----------


## citywokchinesefood

Steve Lackmeyer is high in the running for the laziest person on the planet and the Oklahoman is a rag. OKC Talk will outlast both of them eventually.

----------


## dhpersonal

I subscribed to _The Oklahoman_ during their first $1 for 6 months campaign and ended up unsubscribing at the end of the run because I discovered that _OKCTalk_ has a lot more of the local news that I was seeking. I hoped that the subscriber stories in _The Oklahoman_ would contain news about recent building developments in my area or discussions about MAPS or even just general culture, but so much of the subscriber-only stories felt like they were written by someone who doesn't live within the city. I was disappointed to learn that one of the editors for the independent _The Frontier_ moved to _The Oklahoman_ because I fear that his talents won't be used in the newspaper -- though perhaps he's exactly what they need to feel relevant to me.

----------


## catch22

> Steve Lackmeyer is high in the running for the laziest person on the planet and the Oklahoman is a rag. OKC Talk will outlast both of them eventually.


If you dare even slightly disagree with him on his Twitter feed he will block you. He can't even handle the slightest bit of criticism or disagreement, even if it is a civil conversation. 

I am blocked by him and I can't even think of what for. I am a nobody, my opinion means squat anyway. But it's his town, in his mind - he is the sheriff, judge, and the jury.

----------


## king183

> If you dare even slightly disagree with him on his Twitter feed he will block you. He can't even handle the slightest bit of criticism or disagreement, even if it is a civil conversation. 
> 
> I am blocked by him and I can't even think of what for. I am a nobody, my opinion means squat anyway. But it's his town, in his mind - he is the sheriff, judge, and the jury.


If you've followed him for a while like I have, you'll notice the engagement on his tweets/stories has fallen to be almost non-existent.

----------


## dhpersonal

> If you dare even slightly disagree with him on his Twitter feed he will block you. He can't even handle the slightest bit of criticism or disagreement, even if it is a civil conversation.


I had a decent conversation with him on Twitter recently where I definitely disagreed with him but I remain unblocked. https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer/s...539641857?s=21

----------


## Pete

Oklahoman just announced they have permanently discontinued the printed paper on Saturdays.

They will still publish a digital edition.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Oklahoman just announced they have permanently discontinued the printed paper on Saturdays.
> 
> They will still publish a digital edition.


The Austin American Statesman announced the same today. Going with an enhanced digital edition.

----------


## Pete

Looks like all the Gannett/USAToday papers are going this route.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> If you dare even slightly disagree with him on his Twitter feed he will block you. He can't even handle the slightest bit of criticism or disagreement, even if it is a civil conversation. 
> 
> I am blocked by him and I can't even think of what for. I am a nobody, my opinion means squat anyway. But it's his town, in his mind - he is the sheriff, judge, and the jury.


Aww give yourself a little more credit than that. Being a nobody to the Oklahoman/Steve is probably a positive :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## BrettM2

> If you dare even slightly disagree with him on his Twitter feed he will block you. He can't even handle the slightest bit of criticism or disagreement, even if it is a civil conversation. 
> 
> I am blocked by him and I can't even think of what for. I am a nobody, my opinion means squat anyway. But it's his town, in his mind - he is the sheriff, judge, and the jury.


I called him out for stealing from OKCTalk about 7-8 years ago and have been blocked ever since.

----------


## HangryHippo

He was addressing this on Twitter again yesterday.

----------


## fortpatches

Looks pretty bare in the Oklahoman offices right now. They say they are remodeling.

----------


## Pete

^

The Oklahoman is consolidating into a much smaller space on the 2nd level.

Channel 9 recently bought the building, and they will be moving their studio and offices into the space you pictured.

----------


## BridgeBurner

> I subscribed to _The Oklahoman_ during their first $1 for 6 months campaign and ended up unsubscribing at the end of the run because I discovered that _OKCTalk_ has a lot more of the local news that I was seeking. I hoped that the subscriber stories in _The Oklahoman_ would contain news about recent building developments in my area or discussions about MAPS or even just general culture, but so much of the subscriber-only stories felt like they were written by someone who doesn't live within the city. I was disappointed to learn that one of the editors for the independent _The Frontier_ moved to _The Oklahoman_ because I fear that his talents won't be used in the newspaper -- though perhaps he's exactly what they need to feel relevant to me.


Yeah I just did that today, kind of forgot about it and saw the $10.99 charge after the promo dropped and had to scratch my head for a second at what it was.

----------


## Pete

William Crum, who has always done a very good job of covering city council and general city issues, hasn't written for the Oklahoman in over 6 months.

I wonder if he was let go?

----------


## David

His Twitter account lists him as being on the Freedom of Information Oklahoma board but has no mention of the Oklahoman.

----------


## LordGerald

> William Crum, who has always done a very good job of covering city council and general city issues, hasn't written for the Oklahoman in over 6 months.
> 
> I wonder if he was let go?


He retired.

----------


## Pete

Crum used to do a weekly civic wrap-up that summarized all the major council and civic happenings.  Doesn't look like anyone is doing that anymore.

Also, to the extent the Oklahoman is still employing local reporters, they seem to be using lots of still-in-school college kids.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> Crum used to do a weekly civic wrap-up that summarized all the major council and civic happenings.  Doesn't look like anyone is doing that anymore.
> 
> Also, to the extent the Oklahoman is still employing local reporters, they seem to be using lots of still-in-school college kids.


Marty Peercy put him out of a job with OKCspan

----------


## Pete

^

And in general, FreePressOKC does a good job covering civic matters.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I’ve always thought it would be cool to see OKC Free Press and OKCTalk join up and open a physical location with an OKCTalk Cafe and offices.

----------


## Pete

^

I know the owner well and he's a good man who works very hard and really does want the best for OKC.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

OKC is very lucky to have people like you and the owner of Free Press. I think the person involved in the OKCSpan Twitter account also reports for Free Press but I could be wrong. 

It’s a far cry from the other news stations. Within the last week alone within days after seeing Rose Creek Plaza and OKANA Resort here it was on almost every other station with zero credit given.

----------


## Pete

^

To be fair, the Rose Creek Plaza info was from a press release, it's not something I sourced.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

It’s still funny how they all took more than a day to put anything out and still gave no credit. It’s like they didn’t care until they say social media posts and then ran the story. That’s what it looked to me at least.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> It’s still funny how they all took more than a day to put anything out and still gave no credit. It’s like they didn’t care until they say social media posts and then ran the story. That’s what it looked to me at least.


that press release went to a bunch of okc media      everyone else is just very very slow to report on anything

----------


## BoulderSooner

> ^
> 
> To be fair, the Rose Creek Plaza info was from a press release, it's not something I sourced.


of course the other difference is that you  put "press release"   at the top of what you posted ... .

----------


## Jeepnokc

Looks like the digital access is shut down this morning for "upgrade to system"  Be nice to maybe put that on your website or on the sign-in page denying access instead of spending 12 minutes on hold to be told that.

----------


## unfundedrick

> Looks like the digital access is shut down this morning for "upgrade to system"  Be nice to maybe put that on your website or on the sign-in page denying access instead of spending 12 minutes on hold to be told that.


That's interesting.  I had no problem at all this morning with digital access.  Maybe I just hit it at the right time.  It was early morning when I tried,  maybe 9-10.

----------


## cindycat

We started getting the "upgraded" version of _The Oklahoman_ on Saturday. The Sunday paper had similar changes. I've cut out and worked the Sunday crossword for years but now it's even too big to fit my clipboard. (Tells you my age, right? I don't like doing puzzles on a computer.) I know it's because of the USA Today network takeover, so I can't fully blame the locals. I just had to whine a little.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I'm old, so this is meant as a zero-snark, innocent observation. You made it here, so you are able to get the Oklahoman online. When I am in your situation, I get one of my younger relatives to "sigh" and print off the crossword for me. Then I get them to "double-sigh (possibly breathing through their nose heavily)" and walk me through doing it several times until I can do it myself.

----------


## catcherinthewry

The Oklahoman had a front page story today about a contract between Swadley's and OK state parks that has cost taxpayers over $13 million over the past few years. Great investigative journalism uncovering corruption and/or ineptitude, right? Wrong. They basically ripped off an article by The Frontier from 2 weeks ago with no attribution. 
Plus a change, plus c'est la meme chose.

----------


## king183

> The Oklahoman had a front page story today about a contract between Swadley's and OK state parks that has cost taxpayers over $13 million over the past few years. Great investigative journalism uncovering corruption and/or ineptitude, right? Wrong. They basically ripped off an article by The Frontier from 2 weeks ago with no attribution. 
> Plus a change, plus c'est la meme chose.


As I was reading your post, I was thinking, “Didn’t I read about that in The Frontier a couple weeks ago?” 

I honestly don’t know how The Oklahoman gets away with it anymore.

----------


## Pete

^

It seems like they are 'getting away with it' but they are hemorrhaging subscribers and advertisers and that trend does not seem to be slowing down.  In just a few years they went from an 11-story building with a huge printing facility to a downtown office with a tv studio, and now consolidated to part of one floor with only about 100 employees in small cubicles and they send their edition so early to Tulsa to be printed that they can't cover anything that happens after 5PM the previous day.  They have also completely stopped printing on Saturdays.

Many of us are used to reading them one way or another, but I can tell you the large percentage of OKCTalk's followers on social media (and we have close to 150,000 now) never look at them or local TV news.


They remind me so much of Blockbuster, which abused their monopoly for decades then when Netflix came along and did everything better and treated people well, they desperately tried to adapt and it was far too late, mainly due to the mountain of badwill they had piled upon themselves.

----------


## catcherinthewry

Here's the original article if anyone is interested. The dateline is March 17th.

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories...urant-venture/

----------


## Pete

^

The extreme irony is that the Oklahoman is always pleading with people to subscribe and "support local journalism".

First of all, they are as local as an Applebee's; owned by a huge out-of-state corporation where the large majority of their product is not created by people here.

Secondly, I will continue to argue they are actually very bad for local journalism due to their wildly unethical tactics and their continued theft of work from people and organizations that actually *are* local journalists.  Effectively, they are working against good, honest local journalism every single day.

----------


## soonerguru

The lack of content is embarrassing. Three or four decent articles would be a good day. They leave stale stories on the front page of the website for weeks beyond their shelf life.

I thought Ray Rivera would make it better but it continues to atrophy. I remain a subscriber but I have had repeated interruptions to my digital access over the last two months.

It is a dying enterprise. The solution is to provide more and better content, but they don’t appear committed to that standard.

----------


## Bellaboo

Not sure if this has been posted, but they discontinued delivery service on Saturdays. So you're forced to use digital.

----------


## Midtowner

> ^
> 
> The extreme irony is that the Oklahoman is always pleading with people to subscribe and "support local journalism".
> 
> First of all, they are as local as an Applebee's; owned by a huge out-of-state corporation where the large majority of their product is not created by people here.
> 
> Secondly, I will continue to argue they are actually very bad for local journalism due to their wildly unethical tactics and their continued theft of work from people and organizations that actually *are* local journalists.  Effectively, they are working against good, honest local journalism every single day.


I still receive a print copy every day. The elderly lady we bought our home from, nor her kids could figure out how to cancel the service, so it just keeps showing up. I read through it occasionally. They still do things like the obits well. It'd be pretty great if some of these local journalists could get some capital and make a run at starting a newspaper to compete and kill the Oklahoman. A lot of folks have abandoned it because of garbage content. 

I'll give them a bit of credit for their editorial page. Though they are mostly filling space with op-eds, some pretty questionable, they are decidedly less partisan.

And one tip--their newspapers do pretty well breaking down in compost piles.

----------


## Pete

Obits are yet another thing that is done better online.  The only reason you continue to see them in the paper is that a lot of their readers are dying.  That sounds meaner than my intention, but it's true.  If you are 60 or older and passing away, your audience is the average Oklahoman reader. 


And don't forget, for decades the Oklahoman was the only option if you wanted to honor your loved one and let people know about their service.  And they absolutely gouged people who were suffering the worst kind of loss.  I know this because I had to run obits there for both my parents in the 1980s and I was absolutely shocked by what they charged, but really had no other option.

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## Scott5114

I don't even know if people my age (I'm 32) would even get much use out of a traditional obit. If I kicked the bucket, I assume everyone who knows me in person would find out from my wife's Facebook, and from there it would probably percolate to another forum I participate in, and that'd get all of my acquaintances. I don't know if anyone who would care that I died has so much as looked at a newspaper in the last ten years.

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## Bellaboo

Just cancelled The Oklahoman after many many years. My wife got a larger monthly bill than usual. She called and found out that they are charging more for inserts.

Adios.

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## Martin

> Just cancelled The Oklahoman after many many years. My wife got a larger monthly bill than usual. She called and found out that they are charging more for inserts.
> 
> Adios.


wait... what?  they're charging _more_ for a version of the paper that contains advertising inserts that businesses pay to have included?

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## Bellaboo

> wait... what?  they're charging _more_ for a version of the paper that contains advertising inserts that businesses pay to have included?



Yes.  So we fired them. It was like 8 bucks difference the previous month. Just for the 'ARTS' insert.

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## Thomas Vu

> wait... what?  they're charging _more_ for a version of the paper that contains advertising inserts that businesses pay to have included?



Talk about double dipping.

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## dankrutka

I was listening to the Down to Dunk podcast today and they mentioned that the Oklahoman ran a story on the NBA draft watch party at Fassler Hall last Thursday. The Down to Dunk guys organized it, spoke at it, and 100% made it happen. Fassler was absolutely overflowing with fans because of the podcast. Would you guess that the Oklahoman didn't mention the organizers and just called it a local gathering? The Oklahoman is so unethical and insecure that they won't even give a local basketball podcast credit. Granted, it's 10 times more popular than anything they produce (no shade at Joe Mussatto who does good work), but it's actually pretty similar to their treatment of OKCTalk. I'm guessing it's a company-wide policy not to give any grassroots media content any type of credit.

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## Pete

^

I saw those photos and wondered why there was such an organized crowd there; I knew it couldn't have just been an organic gathering.


I've heard so many excuses for why they function so unethically:  it was the heavy hand of the Gaylords, then it was the new editor, then it was the newest editor and now it's because their newsroom has been slashed -- as if that somehow stops them from adding the phrases you see thousands of times in any other publication:  "first reported by" or "credit to".

They go out of their way to draft off the work of others and then try to squash them with their fading monopoly.

They can't die fast enough for me.  The few good people there will easily find jobs elsewhere but that institution is bad for OKC.

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## soonerguru

I continue to subscribe to the digital version. It is amazing how paltry and limited their coverage is, and how it continues to get worse. I had high hopes for the new Executive Editor but I haven't seen much of anything change. Oddly, their website platform has gotten worse.

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## soonergolfer

They stopped printing the Oil & Gas well permits and completions in the business section in the last week or so. Kind of like they stopped printing the real estate transactions every Saturday. It is pretty pathetic how lazy they have become.

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## Laramie

*US newspapers dying at rate of 2 each week* 

   NEW YORK – Despite a growing recognition of the problem, the United States continues to see newspapers die at the rate of two per week,
   according to a report issued Wednesday on the state of local news...

   ... The country had 6,377 newspapers at the end of May, down from 8,891 in 2005, the report said. While the pandemic didn’t quite cause the reckoning that some in the industry feared, 360 newspapers have shut down since the end of 2019, all but 24 of them weeklies serving small communities.

An estimated 75,000 journalists worked in newspapers in 2006, and now that’s down to 31,000, Northwestern said. Annual newspaper revenue slipped from $50 billion to $21 billion in the same period.

Oklahoman, July 2, 2022 - Link:  https://oklahoman-ok.newsmemory.com/...Ccz2InkIkt0kJC

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## cindycat

And now the comics are in black and white?  I wonder if that's a mistake or another "cheapness." Maybe a shortage of colored ink!!

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## catcherinthewry

Reading The Oklahoman today it struck me that they should have a new motto: All the news that's fit to print - A day late.

Sad to see what it has become.

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## Midtowner

> Reading The Oklahoman today it struck me that they should have a new motto: All the news that's fit to print - A day late.
> 
> Sad to see what it has become.


This post of yours reminds me of what a change has happened. Back when I was a student broadcast journalist at UCO's channel 22 circa 2000, I had the task of showing up at 2 o'clock P.M. and having a 90-second package (sound and audio) ready for air by 5 o'clock P.M. About 9 times out of 10, I had to go find my own subject. When I didn't personally know about anything on or around campus or in the community happening, I'd find a story in the Oklahoman--because that's how it worked back then. The newspaper reported things first, and then everyone else mostly reported on the same things the next day. 

Nowadays, the real citizen-journalists have their own sites. They report things first. The newspaper and everyone else get their idea for filling content by ripping off the citizen journalists. 

Considering what the Oklahoman charges for print subscriptions, I'm not sure that's a business model that's going to work for them in the long run. I still subscribe only because there isn't a strong viable option. If the local citizen journalists had some kind of trade association I could pay into in exchange for supporting all of them, I might go for something like that.

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## Pete

David Cathey (long-time food writer) announced Friday will be his last day at the Oklahoman.

Said he 'took a buyout' which is probably a nice way of saying he was laid off with severance.


The Oklahoman has been using kids right out of college and many of them write for other papers in the USAToday network and don't even live in OKC.

I was told they have less than 100 local employees, which is down from several thousand at their peak.

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## jerrywall

> If the local citizen journalists had some kind of trade association I could pay into in exchange for supporting all of them, I might go for something like that.


I know it's not exactly what you're talking about, but nondoc does have their writer's fund - https://nondoc.com/writers-fund/

Nondoc isn't perfect but they're providing Edmond coverage via their newsletter and they're about the only game in town for that.  Right now through the end of the year any donations will be matched by Newsmatch too, including 12 months worth of a monthly donation, if someone was so inclined.

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## catcherinthewry

What are they doing over at The Oklahoman? Berry Travel is on furlough. Is this a cost cutting move? What a disgrace.

https://twitter.com/BerryTramel/stat...59074948071425

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## Pete

^

I believe they all have to take periodic unpaid furloughs to reduce expenses.

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## king183

The Oklahoman has been delivering the paper to my house for several months. I don't subscribe. I have contacted them multiple times to tell them to stop delivering to my address (they're likely giving someone else's paper to me) and each time they say they've notified the system to stop delivering. We are still getting the paper. It's simply not a well-run organization by any means.

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## Dob Hooligan

> The Oklahoman has been delivering the paper to my house for several months. I don't subscribe. I have contacted them multiple times to tell them to stop delivering to my address (they're likely giving someone else's paper to me) and each time they say they've notified the system to stop delivering. We are still getting the paper. It's simply not a well-run organization by any means.


I don't think you are getting someone else's paper. I think they are giving their delivery person more copies than subscribers. You pick up the paper, so you keep getting it. 

Newspapers often print and distribute more copies than they have subscribers for. They need to have good circulation numbers for the advertisers so they might not right size downward subscription numbers for a few months.

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## Pete

^

As a side note, circulation numbers for newspapers are typically published every year.

And many advertisers demand audited circulation numbers every year or so.

Those numbers are used to calculate reach and also how much an advertiser is willing to pay.

I learned all this when running the Gazette.

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## PM1

> The Oklahoman has been delivering the paper to my house for several months. I don't subscribe. I have contacted them multiple times to tell them to stop delivering to my address (they're likely giving someone else's paper to me) and each time they say they've notified the system to stop delivering. We are still getting the paper. It's simply not a well-run organization by any means.


The reverse happened to my parents a couple years ago. They finally canceled their subscription after weeks of it not being delivered.

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## Rover

> I don't think you are getting someone else's paper. I think they are giving their delivery person more copies than subscribers. You pick up the paper, so you keep getting it. 
> 
> Newspapers often print and distribute more copies than they have subscribers for. They need to have good circulation numbers for the advertisers so they might not right size downward subscription numbers for a few months.


I used to be in the publishing business. It may have changed but most publications were audited by ABC (Audit Bureau of Circulations). Paid circulation and unpaid were accounted for separately. Advertisers take that information into account.  As well, demographics was important, so verification of demographics affected advertising rates.  If you could validate how many readers (as opposed to how many copies were circulated) that is important info too.  So just wasting printed copies and throwing them wherever isn’t really valuable for ad revenue.

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## Tydude

https://twitter.com/Mecoy/status/1609002135345135617



> Today was my last day at The Oklahoman. I accepted a buyout offer. Still a fan and supporter of the great journalists who work there. Not sure what’s next, but after 36 years it’s kind of exciting not to know.

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## HangryHippo

> https://twitter.com/Mecoy/status/1609002135345135617


I didnt even know he was still there. The Oklahoman was already swirling, but USA TODAY/Gannet/whatever the hell has really flushed it. Its worthless.

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