# Civic Matters > Ask Anything About OKC >  Where is Oklahoma...................

## spursfaninoklahoma

I'm tired of arguing with people about where they consider Oklahoma to be at region wise. To me I consider Oklahoma a South/Southwestern state and culture wise as well, but lately I been talking to people who swear Oklahoma is a Midwestern state, some just consider us a outright Southern state. What do you guys think and what do you think others view Oklahoma outside the state.....................

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## bchris02

I consider Oklahoma an outright Southern state.  It does have influences from other regions, be it the Midwest or Texas, but the predominant culture here is that of the upper South.  Oklahoma has more in common with Tennessee in my opinion than it does with New Mexico.  Geographically Oklahoma is a Great Plains state, yet is culturally more similar to Arkansas and southern Missouri than it is to Kansas or Nebraska.

For those who would say that Oklahoma isn't a Southern state, why would you say that and what does Oklahoma have or not have that separates it from the South?

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## ljbab728

I say what difference does it make?

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## Plutonic Panda

> I say what difference does it make?


It's just for debating purposes I suppose

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## adaniel

Oklahoma is what you make it to be. We straddle different regions and how you characterize it will ultimately depend on what part of the state you are in. 

Some people have such a need for everything to be black and white and just can't accept the fact that OK is not easy to categorize. I find our diverse landscapes and cultures a unique and positive aspect of this state.

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## Snowman

> I consider Oklahoma an outright Southern state.  It does have influences from other regions, be it the Midwest or Texas, but the predominant culture here is that of the upper South.  Oklahoma has more in common with Tennessee in my opinion than it does with New Mexico.  Geographically Oklahoma is a Great Plains state, yet is culturally more similar to Arkansas and southern Missouri than it is to Kansas or Nebraska.
> 
> For those who would say that Oklahoma isn't a Southern state, why would you say that and what does Oklahoma have or not have that separates it from the South?


Maybe it was the parts of Kansas and Mississippi I was in but the times I have been in Kansas it felt much more like here than when I was in Mississippi.

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## Mississippi Blues

> Maybe it was the parts of Kansas and Mississippi I was in but the times I have been in Kansas it felt much more like here than when I was in Mississippi.


That's why it's hard for me to call Oklahoma "southern", because throughout the 19 years of my life I've covered Mississippi top to bottom, side to side, town to town & Mississippi is my example of the south. No part of Oklahoma feels like Mississippi to me. Mississippi is almost unanimously considered deep south -- although the tips of northern Mississippi are usually categorized as mid-south -- so my viewpoint can't really be considered heavily since my roots are in the deep south & I haven't really seen much of the mid-south that Oklahoma is sometimes labeled as.

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## adaniel

> That's why it's hard for me to call Oklahoma "southern", because throughout the 19 years of my life I've covered Mississippi top to bottom, side to side, town to town & Mississippi is my example of the south. No part of Oklahoma feels like Mississippi to me. Mississippi is almost unanimously considered deep south -- although the tips of northern Mississippi are usually categorized as mid-south -- so my viewpoint can't really be considered heavily since my roots are in the deep south & I haven't really seen much of the mid-south that Oklahoma is sometimes labeled as.


As someone's who family is from Mississippi (dad's side is from Lee County), I agree. I can tell you most folks down there, while having a very positive opinion of Okies, don't consider us southerners. To them, Alabama and Louisiana are the brothers and sisters and Oklahoma and Kentucky are the distant cousins. 

At its most basic root, OK is a plains and southern hybrid, but even that is rather simplistic. Don't underestimate the pretty divergent history of OK and the rest of the south and how its had an impact on the contemporary cultures of both.

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## spursfaninoklahoma

No way do I think Oklahoma is a full on southern state either. As an African American myself, I've been to Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee and Oklahoma is not in the same ballpark. Okies are GREAT compared to those states especially when it comes to race relations and southern pride. Not to say Oklahoma doesn't have some issues with race, but nothing as deep rooted as you get it the "deep south" and you definitely don't see confederate flags here hanging everywhere like you do in those states. Don't want to get all "race card" on this issue, but that's definitely why I feel Oklahoma has more Southwest culture feel, than a true Southern feel.

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## kevinpate

> ...  To [Mississippi], Alabama and Louisiana are the brothers and sisters and Oklahoma and Kentucky are the distant cousins. 
> ...


Early 80's I ran a pizza outlet in south central AR for a spell. My asst. mgr. was a bright young lady wrapping up her senior year at a nearby university.
One day I asked her what her plans after graduation were. Her response was that she really wanted to move up north somewhere.  In response to me asking where up north, she said she wasn't certain yet, but Kentucky sounded nice.

I was amused, having myself never considered, or heard anyone else consider, Kentucky a northern state before that day.

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## Roger S

It's the heartland.... if you lived here when the Murrah building was bombed that was drilled into our concious from local to national news sources.

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## RadicalModerate

I think it's impossible to file Oklahoma under any general geographical area.  Parts of it are like the South (think everything from Vian south and east) and other parts much more like Texas or Kansas. I suppose that the best--yet still inaccurate--summary might be Southern Midwest.  Let's face it: Oklahoma is unique.  It really is.  And that's one reason that I'm glad it is my adopted home state.  Oklahoma is also OK . . . That's what the license plates used to say, anyways, and I agree.

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## OKVision4U

Prior to 1890,  we received a steady stream of southerners from Arkansas, Miss , Alabama, and Georgia that settled in the eastern half of Oklahoma for farming & trading opportunities.  During this time, we also had Ft. Sill / Ft. Cobb / Ft. Reno / Ft. Arbucle that brought in a "sprinkling" of others to the mix.  During the cattle drives, many Texans came up and settled in the southern / western portions of Oklahoma and along the cattle trails (ie. Chisholm ) for ranching & farming opportunities.  

*We are a southern state in culture, our southern drawl, music, food, and our strong Christian heritage.  We are very hospitable, and conservative*.

We are south of the "slavery" line.  We are west of the Mississippi and east of the Rockies.  We are not a Midwestern state.  *We are South Central*.

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## KenRagsdale

All of the above.

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## Pete

The most accurate description IMO is Southern Great Plains.

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## trousers

To reference the Drive By Truckers I don't see Oklahomans instilled with "that southern thang".  Especially compared to those that I have been around from places like rural Tennessee.

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## Luke

I grew up in Sulphur, Oklahoma.  My in-laws are from Georgia.  As far as my experience, I would classify Oklahoma more Southern in culture than anything.

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## Mr. Cotter

This is from last year, but relevant:

South by Midwest: Or, Where is Oklahoma? | This Land Press

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## OKVision4U

> To reference the Drive By Truckers I don't see Oklahomans instilled with "that southern thang".  Especially compared to those that I have been around from places like rural Tennessee.


...then those (drive by) truckers did not stop and speak w/ people and hear our drawl, eat our southern comfort food, our listen to our music.  We are deeply rooted in the southern traditions.

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## Just the facts

> The most accurate description IMO is Southern Great Plains.


This is what I tell people, and since I spent several years a professional geographer I'll take my word for it.  :Smile: 

I also tell people if they think Oklahoma is flat they should try ridding a bicycle across it.

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## Roger S

> To reference the Drive By Truckers I don't see Oklahomans instilled with "that southern thang".  Especially compared to those that I have been around from places like rural Tennessee.


You and I may be the only ones to get that reference...... On the other hand there were a lot of us that grew up understanding the whole Skynyrd thing in my highschool parking lot..... so maybe we are Southern.

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## OKVision4U

> This is from last year, but relevant:
> 
> South by Midwest: Or, Where is Oklahoma? | This Land Press


C. Vann Woodward is correct.  If you look at the census record in 1900, you can see (very easily) that most everyone was from the southern states.  And, they brought their "southern" culture, values, and Go to Church on Sundays ways.

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## RadicalModerate

My granddad's family came here from Kentucky and he was An Okie's Okie without any doubt.
My grandmother's dad came here from Germany . . .
Oklahoma is Diverse, from the people to the landscape, and not easily pigeonholed.
And that, in my opinion, is a good thing.

Anyone who thinks Oklahoma is a "plains state" hasn't been down around Broken Bow or on up to Poteau.

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## trousers

> You and I may be the only ones to get that reference...... On the other hand there were a lot of us that grew up understanding the whole Skynyrd thing in my highschool parking lot..... so maybe we are Southern.


Yeah, that may be a little too obscure lol but it was the best description of my point.  

Yes we share many of the same traditions and customs as the south.  But I think the difference is in the mindset.  You don't see the hostility towards the north that you see in some southern old timers, the grudge that still exists towards "those northern aggressors".  
See also spursfan's comment.  I've been told (as a white male, hadn't had to experience) that Okie racism is a less militant brand than the true south.

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## RadicalModerate

> I've been told (as a white male, hadn't had to experience) that Okie racism is a less militant brand than the true south.


Here's an Oklahoma Dichotomy for you: I remember, when visiting Oklahoma as a child (back in the late '50s and early '60s) that a lot of the guys who hung around my granddad's garage, way out on the east side, near Nicoma Park, were "of African American descent."  Some of them seemed to be his best friends.  Yet he always used "the N-word" apparently without any malice (or any obvious offense taken by those in his circle of friends). (Grandma preferred the term "Darkies").  Probably, they were friends with Granddad because he knew how to weld-up and repair stills--in addition to working on their cars.  Right next door was a little Barber Shop. When I went in there, to chill for awhile with a soda pop and a comic book or magazine (they had a window unit air conditioner), it was like being at a meeting of a KKK Klavern/cell.

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## mcca7596

> I grew up in Sulphur, Oklahoma.  My in-laws are from Georgia.  As far as my experience, I would classify Oklahoma more Southern in culture than anything.


I have lived in Duke, Clinton, Tishomingo, Yukon, and went to OU for a few years. To me Sulphur, Tishomingo, and points east and south have a palpably different culture than western, central, and north central Oklahoma. My point is that while southeast and parts of northeast Oklahoma do have a dominant Southern culture, it always felt more like the Great Plains/Southwest/Texas in the rest of the state to me.

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## RadicalModerate

I suppose that all of this is more a matter of "Where are YOU in regard to Oklahoma.....?" as compared to "Where is Oklahoma . . ." ?
(don't try to make the state fit you. adjust to fit the state.  Oklahoma is OK.  Has been for a long time. Relatively speaking.)

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## OKCisOK4me

I consider Oklahoma South/Southwest due to geographical composition. Oklahoma is too much of a mixed bag of ethnicity to say that we're predominately anything culture wise, which is why I use geography.

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## Stew

> I consider Oklahoma South/Southwest due to geographical composition. Oklahoma is too much of a mixed bag of ethnicity to say that we're predominately anything culture wise, which is why I use geography.


That is very true.

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## OKVision4U

> I consider Oklahoma South/Southwest due to geographical composition. Oklahoma is too much of a mixed bag of ethnicity to say that we're predominately anything culture wise, which is why I use geography.


Well, yes we can.  We are a southern state by culture.  If you peel-back one single layer of "MTV / Cable TV / Generation X", you will see a deeply rooted culture from the south w/ Speech, Food, Music, hospitality, and Christian heritage.  

Oklahoma is unique in many ways ( left over land no one wanted / 1889 land run / different Native American tribes ), but the rest is a Farming / Ranching heritage that is from the south & Texas.

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## KayneMo

To me, Oklahoma is at the crossroads of culture and geography and that makes it hard to define Oklahoma, which isn't bad!

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## bchris02

For those who say Oklahoma is in the Southwest, what characteristics does Oklahoma share with states like New Mexico and Arizona?  The only Southwestern state that Oklahoma shares anything in common with is Texas, which can also be lumped with the Southeast.  Oklahoma has more in common with Georgia and Alabama than it does Arizona.  

As far as religious heritage, its important to say Southern Baptist and not Christian.  The Great Plains (Kansas and northward) are deeply religious but more Methodist and the Southwest has deep Catholic roots.  Oklahoma is predominantly Southern Baptist in almost every county, just like Mississippi and Alabama.  Politically there is a similar distinction.  Western Republicanism is more libertarian leaning while Oklahoma's conservatism is very focused on social issues just like the Deep South.  

The only place that may be genuinely Southwestern is the panhandle.  The rest of the state is unmistakable as anything but Southern.

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## Zuplar

> This is from last year, but relevant:
> 
> South by Midwest: Or, Where is Oklahoma? | This Land Press


This is the exact article I was thinking of. That being said I consider Oklahoma the south but I can see where you could make the argument for the Midwest in the northern part of the state.

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## RadicalModerate

It is no accident that Oklahoma has more miles of The Original Mother Road (Route 66) in place and drivable than any other state.  However, if you want to catch a glimpse of the REAL Oklahoma, drive Highway 3 all the way from border to border.

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## Snowman

I liked this description from the article, that is what I am going with: "Upper central mid south west"  :Smile:

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## KenRagsdale

Perhaps this will clear things up a bit.  

"Settlement patterns are determined by many factors. Geography, land policy, sociological circumstances, economics, ethnicity, even religion, readily come to mind. In all of these areas but religion (Oklahoma is overwhelmingly composed of "Bible Belt" churches), Oklahoma is a border region, neither North nor South, East nor West, neither all humid nor all arid, but rather like an old-fashioned quilt, made of many pieces, some complementary and some contrasting." 

This link expands on the thesis:

SETTLEMENT PATTERNS

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## OKVision4U

KenR, that is one of my favorite sites on Oklahoma.  Yes, look at the patterns and you will see the Southern influx of people and culture.  The Southern Baptist Church is the predominate belief that was brought with them.  The eastern half of Oklahoma was settled from Tulsa / Shawnee / Pauls Valley / Norman / Ardmore by this group.  ..thus our Southern drawl.

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## Urbanized

> No way do I think Oklahoma is a full on southern state either. As an African American myself, I've been to Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee and Oklahoma is not in the same ballpark. Okies are GREAT compared to those states especially when it comes to race relations and southern pride. Not to say Oklahoma doesn't have some issues with race, but nothing as deep rooted as you get it the "deep south" and you definitely don't see confederate flags here hanging everywhere like you do in those states. Don't want to get all "race card" on this issue, but that's definitely why I feel Oklahoma has more Southwest culture feel, than a true Southern feel.


I'm glad to hear that from someone in a position to know. I've always believed it to be the case, but it's not really possible for me to have an honest read on it. I know prejudices still exist here (and just about everywhere, really), but in my experience in true "southern" places I've visited racial tension seems very close to the surface. The worst was probably Memphis, where it seemed so thick it felt like you could cut it with a knife. I've almost never felt that type of thing here. It's why the Charles Barkley comments of a few years ago felt so unjust and off-base.

Also - and maybe related - when visiting "the South" I've always felt "Southern Hospitality" was overrated. It often feels forced, contrived, or missing altogether, whereas Okies just seem genuinely friendly and accepting of all. Maybe it's just bias on my part, but I have always felt we were much more welcoming and less judgmental than southerners.

That said, a lot of it goes out the window in Little Dixie.

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## okcpulse

I define states by their history.  Oklahoma is not a southern state in that it was never a part of the Confederacy.  Indeed, the state didn't exist until 42 years after the end of the Civil War, but it existed as a territory.  Even after subsequent land runs in 1889 and 1890s, it was still a territory until statehood in 1907.  Oklahoma was heavily settled by Europeans looking for farmland, northerners who were looking for cheaper farmland (my ancestors were among those from Minnesota and Nebraska who came to Oklahoma in 1892) and northeastern industrial tycoons who came for oil.  Oklahoma was flooded by southerners in the 1920s who were fed up with an impoverished deep south looking for opportunities on tenement farms, mines and in oil fields.  

Historically, Oklahoma is not southern.  Present day, Oklahoma reflects southern political and religious leanings, but after my recent visits to Tennessee, Alabama and Mississippi, Oklahoma is far from southern culturally.  There is a resemblance, but Oklahoma oozes a style all its own.  In order to understand Oklahoma's true story, you must look beyond the news and delve into its eclectically odd but intriguing cultural qualities and western charm.  To me, it doesn't get any better than that.

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## bchris02

> I define states by their history.  Oklahoma is not a southern state in that it was never a part of the Confederacy.  Indeed, the state didn't exist until 42 years after the end of the Civil War, but it existed as a territory.  Even after subsequent land runs in 1889 and 1890s, it was still a territory until statehood in 1907.  Oklahoma was heavily settled by Europeans looking for farmland, northerners who were looking for cheaper farmland (my ancestors were among those from Minnesota and Nebraska who came to Oklahoma in 1892) and northeastern industrial tycoons who came for oil.  Oklahoma was flooded by southerners in the 1920s who were fed up with an impoverished deep south looking for opportunities on tenement farms, mines and in oil fields.  
> 
> Historically, Oklahoma is not southern.  Present day, Oklahoma reflects southern political and religious leanings, but after my recent visits to Tennessee, Alabama and Mississippi, Oklahoma is far from southern culturally.  There is a resemblance, but Oklahoma oozes a style all its own.  In order to understand Oklahoma's true story, you must look beyond the news and delve into its eclectically odd but intriguing cultural qualities.


Oklahoma wasn't part of the Confederacy, but if it would have been a state during the Civil War, it would have been a Confederate state.  They had slavery in the Indian territory and most of the residents of the territory sympathized with the Confederacy over the Union.

Culturally, what would you say is different about Tennessee, Mississippi, and Alabama from Oklahoma?

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## adaniel

> Culturally, what would you say is different about Tennessee, Mississippi, and Alabama from Oklahoma?


A lot, actually.

Oklahoma is a ranching and mining state, and has been heavily influenced by the boom and bust cycle of these. It has created a much more grizzled, salt-of-the-earth populace that is more akin to people found in the Great Plains. That is certainly not to say OK doesn't have hangups with status and class (Tulsa is much more in line with the rest of the south than OK in this regard), but the local culture here is far more laid back. 

Most of the South--the Appalachian area notwithstanding--was heavy into plantation agriculture and cash crops like tobacco and cotton. The caste-like plantation system of slaves and white sharecroppers at the bottom, rich landowners at the top, created a very bifurcated society with a defined aristocracy. Even though the growth in manufacturing has created a bit of a middle class now, you can still see just how much emphasis status is in the south. Think, "southern gentlemen," Gone with the Wind, Debutante Balls, etc. Just go to an SEC FB game and see how much everyone is "dressed up" in khakis and button up shirts. You would get laughed out of an OU or OSU game dressed like that.

This is certainly not the only difference I would say. The obvious Indian influence, the VERY different climate and topography, the differing diets (OK cuisine is much more centered on beef), the lack of a maritime culture--all former confederate states except TN have a coast. I would also add there is very little recognition of any sort of historical southern pillars here; I have never seen a "Robert E. Lee" or "Jefferson Davis" anything in OK, and I can count on one hand how many confederate flags I've seen in my 9 years here.

So to make a long story short, IMO there is a definitive southern influence here, and I imagine most people here identify with the south if for nothing else to cut down on a complicated explanation. But there are simply too many nuances here to say they are one in the same. And instead of trying to categorize ourselves, OK should embrace its unique history and culture!

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## kevinpate

growing up, the Oklahoma west of HWY 75 always looked and seemed a fair bit different to me, people and land alike. Then on west of HWY 75, still more so. Don't get back home much anymore, but i think that may still be somewhat true.

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## LocoAko

> I also tell people if they think Oklahoma is flat they should try ridding a bicycle across it.


Amen!

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## LocoAko

> Anyone who thinks Oklahoma is a "plains state" hasn't been down around Broken Bow or on up to Poteau.


Oklahoma is DEFINITELY a "Plains state". Not the entire state, but I'd consider (roughly) anything west of I-35/44 to be the Great Plains from a geographical perspective. Many "Plains States" aren't entirely within that region. In fact, the "Southern" argument aside, I'd say denoting OK as the "Southern Plains" is perhaps the least controversial geographic label of them all...

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## old okie

> Perhaps this will clear things up a bit.  
> 
> "Settlement patterns are determined by many factors. Geography, land policy, sociological circumstances, economics, ethnicity, even religion, readily come to mind. In all of these areas but religion (Oklahoma is overwhelmingly composed of "Bible Belt" churches), *Oklahoma is a border region, neither North nor South, East nor West, neither all humid nor all arid, but rather like an old-fashioned quilt, made of many pieces, some complementary and some contrasting*." 
> 
> This link expands on the thesis:
> 
> SETTLEMENT PATTERNS


Yes!  Knowing the history of Oklahoma, a person can quickly see that "we" aren't really definable by the standard measures.  The fact that the state was actually composed of several areas [Twin Territories, No Man's Land, Old Greer County], had the only land runs in the country [five of them, actually]--which brought in folks from all over, and had a unique combination of homesteaders, wildcatters, cattlemen & cowboys, business developers, and the incredible heritage of the various Native American tribes--which were quite diverse as well, when added to our unique geography--all serve to set Oklahoma apart from any where else in the country.  

Oklahoma's fascinating history not only makes for an interesting study, but it also explains the unique characteristics of this state that defy stereotyping.

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## NoOkie

I grew up in the south(Georgia).  I've never thought Oklahoma was the south culturally, though eastern Oklahoma has more traits in common with the south than central OK.  Adaniel kind of hit it on the head with the cultural differences, though I'd argue that the south hasn't been an agricultural area for a long time perhaps with the exception of Mississippi and East Texas.  The change started with reconstruction, and kind of came to fruition after WWII.  The area of Georgia where my grandfather grew up(Near FDR's Little White House) is nothing but farm land in pictures from his era.  These days, it's nothing but pine timber land.

The south is an industrial area now, just not densely packed like the rust belt.  Textile mills shut down and gave way to the auto industry.  My home town used to be full of Callaway and Milliken textile mills.  Now there's just a Kia factory and parts supplies.  I think the shift to blue collar industrial work has allowed that bifurcation of society to stay in place, though fuzzed and blurred somewhat.  

If you're going to go with "which side of the civil war were you on" as a determination, I'd argue that Oklahoma is neither north nor south, but occupies the same strange category as Missouri-mostly existing in a State of confusion.  Missouri sent troops to both sides, though ultimately leaned more northern in its sensibilities.  The Indian tribes in Oklahoma were split, with only the 5 Civilized Tribes siding with the confederacy.  Both the Battle of Round Mountain and the Battle of Honey Creek had tribal units on both side.

This got rather long, but basically my take on this as a southerner is thus: Central and Western Oklahoma really feel like Texas culturally(Yes, Texas was part of the Confederacy.  But it is culturally distinct from the rest of the south because, hey, it's Texas!).  Eastern Oklahoma seems to exist in a state more like Arkansas-a cultural plains/south transition zone.

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## PWitty

Geographically, Oklahoma is part of the plains. Most publications refer from Texas all the way up to the Dakotas to be the plains states. If you don't want to call it that, then it is part of the south central US along with Texas and Arkansas. I don't understand why so many others want so badly to say OK is a true southern state. Besides Baptist being the predominant religion, I don't see any other similarities. And I've said it before but I’m from Kansas, and Oklahoma feels almost exactly like Kansas to me. Besides their differences in religion, I can't name anything major that varies between the two. I don't know what the other people are referring to when they say OK is nothing like Kansas.

True southern states share a bond from the days of the Confederacy, and trying to bring up OK's involvement in that only further solidifies how distant they are from the true south.

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## RadicalModerate

> This is from last year, but relevant:
> 
> South by Midwest: Or, Where is Oklahoma? | This Land Press


Thank you for sharing that link.  I accidentally caught an audio episode of the program on a local public radio station, some time ago, and it reminded me what an interesting program/publication it was.  Here is a link to one part of the show that played the first and only time I encountered it on the airwaves:

Imaginary Oklahoma: ?Streetlamps? by Alan Heathcock | This Land Press

You have the choice of listening to the segment or reading it.

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## Mississippi Blues

> Also - and maybe related - when visiting "the South" I've always felt "Southern Hospitality" was overrated. It often feels forced, contrived, or missing altogether, whereas Okies just seem genuinely friendly and accepting of all. Maybe it's just bias on my part, but I have always felt we were much more welcoming and less judgmental than southerners.


Like I said before, I've been all over Mississippi & honestly, to me, they both feel quite similar in regards to hospitality. In some cases, I've found Mississippian's to be more hospitable than Okies, but that's not to say the Oklahoma people aren't nice or welcoming. The people in Mississippi are also easier to talk to, but that's probably more of a personal thing since 95% of my family lives in Mississippi & I can relate to Mississippians more so than Oklahomans. 

As surprising as it may sound, I've found that same hospitality in Atlanta that I'm talking about experiencing in Mississippi. Yeah, Atlanta is a huge, fast-paced city, but I've come across people that will just sit there & talk to you & 15 minutes later you've learned the life of someone you could've cared less about 20 minutes ago until you started talking. That doesn't go to say that Atlantan's are easy going, chill people because a lot of them aren't due to the busy schedule's of many that are in & out of places before you realize they're there, but the ones that aren't on a "leave DeKalb County & be on the other side of Fulton County in 10 minutes" type of schedule are very relaxed & will sit there & for however long you're able to talk y'all are just sitting there talking & being friendly.

I'm not discrediting Oklahoma & it's hospitality/niceness, it's asinine to say it doesn't exist or is on a much smaller scale than Mississippi or Georgia. Hospitality is alive & well in all those places, I'm just giving an example that I've found the southern hospitality to be real. If you compare the south to the northeast or some of the west coast, you'll understand where the whole "Southern Hospitality" comes from. It isn't really fair to compare the southern hospitality notion with a place that is also known for its hospitality (Oklahoma).

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## Zuplar

> Geographically, Oklahoma is part of the plains. Most publications refer from Texas all the way up to the Dakotas to be the plains states. If you don't want to call it that, then it is part of the south central US along with Texas and Arkansas. I don't understand why so many others want so badly to say OK is a true southern state. Besides Baptist being the predominant religion, I don't see any other similarities. And I've said it before but I’m from Kansas, and Oklahoma feels almost exactly like Kansas to me. Besides their differences in religion, I can't name anything major that varies between the two. I don't know what the other people are referring to when they say OK is nothing like Kansas.
> 
> True southern states share a bond from the days of the Confederacy, and trying to bring up OK's involvement in that only further solidifies how distant they are from the true south.


There seems to be a lot of dislike for Kansas here. Most think of it as flat and boring, with nothing to do. I think most like to believe Oklahoma has more to offer. I see some similarities of the states especially the Northern part, but head southeast and you start to see major differences. Like many have said the reason why Oklahoma has an identity  crisis is because it is at the crossroads of different regions. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

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## RadicalModerate

> There seems to be a lot of dislike for Kansas here. Most think of it as flat and boring, with nothing to do. I think most like to believe Oklahoma has more to offer.


I recall hearing a report one time, on the radio, that some geographers and mathematicians got together to determine whether Kansas was "flatter than a pancake."  Their conclusion, based upon the average variance in elevation, was that the observation--as applied to Kansas--was, indeed true.  Kansas is, in reality, flatter than the proverbial pancake.  This is why, when we drive up to Minnesota, we always go via Highway 71 (in Missouri) to Kansas City (which is a pretty interesting place).  At least the Kansas City, MO, part is. =)

Please be advised: I'm not sure if they used The International Metric Standard Pancake for comparison or the S.A.E. pancake.

I *do* know that my Grandmother's mother was so happy to move to Oklahoma from Kansas that she shed tears of joy.

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## PWitty

> I recall hearing a report one time, on the radio, that some geographers and mathematicians got together to determine whether Kansas was "flatter than a pancake."  Their conclusion, based upon the average variance in elevation, was that the observation--as applied to Kansas--was, indeed true.  Kansas is, in reality, flatter than the proverbial pancake.  This is why, when we drive up to Minnesota, we always go via Highway 71 (in Missouri) to Kansas City (which is a pretty interesting place).  At least the Kansas City, MO, part is. =)
> 
> Please be advised: I'm not sure if they used The International Metric Standard Pancake for comparison or the S.A.E. pancake.
> 
> I *do* know that my Grandmother's mother was so happy to move to Oklahoma from Kansas that she shed tears of joy.


Haha that's funny, I've actually seen/heard that same study.

I understand that people would like to think that OK is better off than Kansas and honestly, they are. But it's not like KS has any worse of a national sterotype than the true southern states have. But back to the point. When I'm looking at the similarities between two states I'm going to look at the predominant geography of the states, and the look and feel of their biggest cities. Obviously since KC is not techincally in KS (just the nice KC suburbs are), OK has much larger cities. But both have two major population centers in the state. OK has OKC and Tulsa, and KS has Wichita and the KS side of the KC metro. OKC is flat in the middle of the plains and culturally doesn't have any major differences compared to Wichita (besides the predominant religion), OKC is obviously just much bigger. They even both share some of the same major industries (aerospace and oil and gas). A little further east in OK is Tulsa, which gets out of the plains for the most part and gets into some rolling plains/hills. This geography is identical to the eastern part of KS along the MO border, where all of the large KC suburbs on the KS side are. And driving around the entire KC metro, for the most part, feels no different than driving around OKC or Tulsa. There is nothing that sticks out to me and tells me I'm not home. The people are even the same. The only difference is that they wear OU/OSU gear instead of KU/KSU gear. Both states even have the same stereotype of having traditional conservative views on the national level. 

I'm not trying to say that OK is identical to KS, because nothing is identical to OK, but it feels a lot more like KS than it does the states in the true south.

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## PWitty

Picked up a copy of the US News and World College Rankings while I was in the airport yesterday, and they had Oklahoma listed in the "West" region! This thread was the first thing I thought of haha

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## Snowman

> Picked up a copy of the US News and World College Rankings while I was in the airport yesterday, and they had Oklahoma listed in the "West" region! This thread was the first thing I thought of haha


Since the NBA never altered any of the divisions after the Thunder relocated, they are still in the Northwest Division. Though if Memphis can be included in the Southwest division then we might as well be considered Northwest and makes it easier to clinch the division than being in the Southwest (or Pacific, though that would not help the geographic accuracy any).

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## TAlan CB

> For those who say Oklahoma is in the Southwest, what characteristics does Oklahoma share with states like New Mexico and Arizona?  The only Southwestern state that Oklahoma shares anything in common with is Texas, which can also be lumped with the Southeast.  Oklahoma has more in common with Georgia and Alabama than it does Arizona.  
> 
> As far as religious heritage, its important to say Southern Baptist and not Christian.  The Great Plains (Kansas and northward) are deeply religious but more Methodist and the Southwest has deep Catholic roots.  Oklahoma is predominantly Southern Baptist in almost every county, just like Mississippi and Alabama.  Politically there is a similar distinction.  Western Republicanism is more libertarian leaning while Oklahoma's conservatism is very focused on social issues just like the Deep South.  
> 
> The only place that may be genuinely Southwestern is the panhandle.  The rest of the state is unmistakable as anything but Southern.


I have seen a couple of maps (wish I could remember the source) that spoke of language and religion and its spread across the US.  Oklahoma was cited as an example of demarcation as the border was placed along I-44. To the west of this road it is predominately Methodist and American English spoken with a dialect descended from the mid-Atlantic states ( 'TV English' ).  To the east and south of this road Baptist was predominate spoken with a southern dialect intersected with western idioms.   

I had never thought about this before.  But as every major Oklahoma City is 'on this line',  most of Oklahoma's' population is to the east of this line.  Since this is the case, the majority of the population will align with the 'south', though the geography of settlement is split nearly evenly.

The physical geography of the land is also as divergent.  South and east of I-44 the land strongly resembles the rest of the historic south.  North and west of this line it is clearly 'western'.  

Growing up, I spent most of my time in eastern Oklahoma finally settling in OKC (before leaving after college).   I was near HS graduation before I even discovered the Wichita Mountains!  It was clear that when I was down there and at Altus, I was in the west .... period.  That is the most interesting thing about Oklahoma and Okies.  They can be very 'local' in their view.  I know a lot of 'eastern Okies' who don't even know the Great Salt Plains even exist - not the least that they are in Oklahoma.  Conversely, I've known a few Northwestern Okies who were shocked the first time I took them to Broken Bow. 

All 5 of the 'civilized tribes' were in the Civil War - split down the middle (of each tribe)  like the rest of the nation.  Some tribes were more align to the South, others had more Northern sympathies.  There was more destruction and death per-capita in the Indian Nations (Eastern Oklahoma) than anywhere in the US (including Virginia).  My grandmother told me stories of her uncles arguing over poker - who finally got frustrated and said "I should have shot you when I saw you crossing the Arkansas (during the civil War), but I didn't 'cause you was kin" (My grandmother is 99 and her great uncles lived as long). 

Now that I live in the 'East' (South) and people ask me what Oklahoma is like, I answer it is where the North meets the South, and the East becomes West - both physically and culturally. The local Creek tribe advertise their casinos in Alabama.  Eufaula is on lake Eufaula on the border of Georgia and Alabama.  Okmulgee is a major river in Georgia and is spelled Ocmulgee.  The list goes on.  

I hated being a history teacher in Oklahoma - you had to explain the whole history of the US to explain the settlement of Oklahoma.

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## Urbanized

I thought about this thread when I took this quiz the other day. I would encourage everyone to take it; it's very entertaining. It was uncannily accurate for me. It plots the three cities whose native dialects most closely resemble your own. For me, it showed OKC, Tulsa, and Springfield, MO, which is interesting since I grew up in Wichita but have now lived in OKC (where my family is from and has mostly always lived) for nearly 30 years.

The quiz: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-quiz-map.html

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## PWitty

> I thought about this thread when I took this quiz the other day. I would encourage everyone to take it; it's very entertaining. It was uncannily accurate for me. It plots the three cities whose native dialects most closely resemble your own. For me, it showed OKC, Tulsa, and Springfield, MO, which is interesting since I grew up in Wichita but have now lived in OKC (where my family is from and has mostly always lived) for nearly 30 years.
> 
> The quiz: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-quiz-map.html


That's pretty cool. I got Overland Park/Kansas City/Wichita. Which is pretty darn close!

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## Mississippi Blues

It had me from Oklahoma City, Irving, & Shreveport.

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## Urbanized

> It nailed me having grown up in Alaska: http://nyti.ms/KhmkkW


That's a joke then..?

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## RadicalModerate

Glendale (CA): Keyword Link--  "Freeway"
Fresno (CA): Keyword Link-- "Yard Sale"
Bakersfield (CA): Keyword Link-- "Drinking Fountain"

I've been to Fresno once.  I'm not sure about Glendale.  I went though Bakersfield once.
Legend has it that Bakersfield was primarily settled by Gypsy Oklahomans so this probably explains it.

I once had a "Yankee" (Steve Thomas from This Old House) say, "You aren't from around here. i can't place your accent."  I said, "Well, i grew up in Colorado and have lived here in OKC for about the same amount of time . . . So I guess it's from up around Boise City." (that's "Boyse" btw.)

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## dankrutka

Wow. My 3 options were Plano, Tulsa, and Irving. I'm from Tulsa.

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## RadicalModerate

> What do you mean? I'm saying, the correctly guessed that I was born and raised in Alaska.


The fact that "the" is how they say "they" in Alaska should have been a dead giveaway. =)
(i was a huge "Northern Exposure" fan back in the day . . . you couldn't pay me enough to actually live in Alaska.)

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## Mr T

I got Yonkers, Springfield and Providence.  I was born and raised in West Hartford and the eastern Connecticut shore!  Very very good!

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## CCOKC

Thanks for posting that link Urbanized.  How fun!  I got OKC, Tulsa and Amarillo.  I was born here and have lived here the majority of my life so I guess the quiz is pretty spot on.

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## adaniel

Wow, I got Ft Worth, Arlington, and Lubbock. Off by only 25 miles from where I grew up.

I actually shared this my dad and he showed OKC, Jackson Miss, and Springfield. He was born in Northern Mississippi but raised in OKC. Interesting how it picked that up.

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## CCOKC

Which Springfield was that?  I was the least similar to Springfield MA. In fact my other two least similar were both in New England as well.

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## Mississippi Blues

> Which Springfield was that?  I was the least similar to Springfield MA. In fact my other two least similar were both in New England as well.


My least similar were in NE as well.

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## Dubya61

I got OKC, Lexington (KY), and Moblie (AL).  I was surprised, because I have spent a LONG time away from Oklahoma and learned new languages in the process, not the least of which was British.

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## RadicalModerate

If it hasn't already been copyrighted or trademarked by someone . . . how about**:

Oklahoma: A State of Mind. Not a Place. Just to Be. U n Me.
(nah . . . "OK" or "Native America" involves less keystrokes. =)

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## adaniel

> Which Springfield was that?  I was the least similar to Springfield MA. In fact my other two least similar were both in New England as well.


LOL didn't think to specify. It was Springfield MO. Both me and him were the least similar to Southern New England.

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## RadicalModerate

> LOL didn't think to specify. It was Springfield MO. Both me and him were the least similar to Southern New England.


Dang.  I was the least similar to that whole NE section of the US2.  At least in terms of reflecting perceived reality by the words we use.  Even for stuff that should be common sense, fer cryin' out loud. Heck.  If I'm not mistaken Thomas Paine wuz from "the old country" (England or Scotland or Whales or whutnut). . .  ?de veras o no? . . . probl'y spoke with some wacky, yet attractive, "Australian" accent or sumpin'.  That probably accounts for why common folk like his tales so much.

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## kevinpate

Shreveport, Jackson and Birmingham were my three.  Interesting as they have the same basis color coding as eastern TX panhandle, far southwestern NC, and to a lesser extent southeastern OK (my primary influence areas growing up)

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## RadicalModerate

> Shreveport, Jackson and Birmingham were my three.  Interesting as they have the same basis color coding as eastern TX panhandle, far southwestern NC, and to a lesser extent southeastern OK (my primary influence areas growing up)


Maybe, in the future, it might be wise to not refer to anything involving "southeastern OK" as "lesser extent"?
(or not)

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## Snowman

> Thanks for posting that link Urbanized.  How fun!  I got OKC, Tulsa and Amarillo.  I was born here and have lived here the majority of my life so I guess the quiz is pretty spot on.


Same trio of cities for me too

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## bchris02

Got Fresno, Bakersfield, and Albuquerque here.

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## TAlan CB

> I thought about this thread when I took this quiz the other day. I would encourage everyone to take it; it's very entertaining. It was uncannily accurate for me. It plots the three cities whose native dialects most closely resemble your own. For me, it showed OKC, Tulsa, and Springfield, MO, which is interesting since I grew up in Wichita but have now lived in OKC (where my family is from and has mostly always lived) for nearly 30 years.
> 
> The quiz: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-quiz-map.html


Wow.
 This quiz shows that I am most like Modesto, Reno, and Sacramento.  These are all dust-bowl Okie cities.  I was born in Sacramento - but that was because my dad (who was raised in Texas) was transferred by the Air Force.  He was a Junior High teacher in Amarillo when the Cuban crises activated his reserve status and sent him to Florida (for invasion of Cuba).  He stayed in and was stationed in Sacramento (I had actually been conceived in Amarillo).  By the time I was 2 my mother took me to Tahlequah so she could finish her teaching degree.  When I was 3 we were off to Florida, Spain, Washington State, upstate NY, Colorado, then 20 years in my parents home state of Oklahoma.  Every summer (except when we were in Spain) I would come to Oklahoma for the break - eastern OK - to work on my grandpas farm.  My father was born in southern Oklahoma, but moved to Texas when he was young.   I guess in all that moving I picked up a lot of language idioms. Truth was, most of the questions seem to have several words I frequently use.  Some I choose because they were nostalgic, others because I use them most often.   There were a lot that I would use based on who I am talking to.  I grew up calling them 'rollie pollies' but in horticulture I call them 'pill bugs'.  Similarly, I grew up calling them crawdads, but often call them crawfish - or mud puppies.   Lighting bugs and fireflies are the same depending on which word comes to me first.    I wonder if I took the test again and used some of my other 'preferred choices' where it would place me?

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## TAlan CB

> Wow.
>  This quiz shows that I am most like Modesto, Reno, and Sacramento.  These are all dust-bowl Okie cities.  I was born in Sacramento - but that was because my dad (who was raised in Texas) was transferred by the Air Force.  He was a Junior High teacher in Amarillo when the Cuban crises activated his reserve status and sent him to Florida (for invasion of Cuba).  He stayed in and was stationed in Sacramento (I had actually been conceived in Amarillo).  By the time I was 2 my mother took me to Tahlequah so she could finish her teaching degree.  When I was 3 we were off to Florida, Spain, Washington State, upstate NY, Colorado, then 20 years in my parents home state of Oklahoma.  Every summer (except when we were in Spain) I would come to Oklahoma for the break - eastern OK - to work on my grandpas farm.  My father was born in southern Oklahoma, but moved to Texas when he was young.   I guess in all that moving I picked up a lot of language idioms. Truth was, most of the questions seem to have several words I frequently use.  Some I choose because they were nostalgic, others because I use them most often.   There were a lot that I would use based on who I am talking to.  I grew up calling them 'rollie pollies' but in horticulture I call them 'pill bugs'.  Similarly, I grew up calling them crawdads, but often call them crawfish - or mud puppies.   Lighting bugs and fireflies are the same depending on which word comes to me first.    I wonder if I took the test again and used some of my other 'preferred choices' where it would place me?


Interesting.  In the second 'go-round' I chose the other term I would most often use.  This applied to only about 1/3 of the questions, most stayed the same.  This time it placed me in Salt Lake City, Lubbock, and Shreveport.  This would be closer to what I feel.

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## Urbanized

> What do you mean? I'm saying, the correctly guessed that I was born and raised in Alaska.


Oh, when I clicked on your link it showed three wildly disparate cities, none of which was in or even near Alaska. iPad glitch, maybe.

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## Urbanized

> Thanks for posting that link Urbanized.  How fun!  I got OKC, Tulsa and Amarillo.  I was born here and have lived here the majority of my life so I guess the quiz is pretty spot on.


You're welcome! You're right; it was fun and interesting.

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## soonerguru

Wow. Mine came in Oklahoma City first, Tulsa second, and Springfield third. Pretty much dead on and I was 100% honest in my responses!

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## SOONER8693

WOW for sure. Lived my first 12 yrs near Enid, the next 9 in Hutchinson, Ks, then the next 40 in Weatherford/Norman/OKC. My 3 cities came in as OKC, Wichita, Tulsa.

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## RadicalModerate

So, I just re-took the quiz and changed maybe four or five answers to my second most often used term for things (e.g. crawdad for crayfish, traffic circle for roundabout, 18-wheeler for semi, y'all for you all and garage sale for yard sale).  Suddenly, I'm from Jacksonville, (MS), Shreveport (LA) and Brownsville (TX) instead of from three Southern California towns.

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## kevinpate

> Maybe, in the future, it might be wise to not refer to anything involving "southeastern OK" as "lesser extent"?
> (or not)


Now RM, I was referring to the comparative color shading on the chart, not the folk or the land.   :Smile:

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## PennyQuilts

Fun - thanks.  I got Lubbock (never been there), Amarillo and Little Rock (have only driven through those towns - not stopped).  I expected more SE Texas and Alabama because I lived there as a child.  Moved to Oklahoma when I was 11,  Interesting that I got two west Texas towns since I have no family or close friends from there.  I got two cities a stone throw from each other (in Massachusetts) as the least similar.

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## Mel

I grew up a Navy brat, my three cities are Jackson, MS. and Birmingham and Montgomery AL. Never lived in any of those cities but the region yes. I guess Norfolk and San Diego didn't effect my speech.

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## Studying Okie

I hope I'm not too late to the conversation, but growing up in OKC I had long thought of Oklahoma as part of the South. It does seem like Oklahoma is becoming less and less Southern, though. I think the effort in making OKC, and Oklahoma in general, seem less "backward" is partly responsible.

For example, OKC used to have a school named for Jefferson Davis that closed in 1987. Pictures here: Jefferson Davis School | Abandoned Oklahoma

Today OKC has 3 schools named for Confederate Officers:
Stand Watie Elementary School - About Us

Lee Elementary School - About Us

Jackson Middle School (named for Gen. Stonewall Jackson, who also has an Oklahoma county named for him) - Home

I don't have any references but I'm fairly certain we also do fly the Confederate flag at the Capitol (definitely used to) and there are places around the state where "Dixie" was sung before football games and similar stuff.

That's not to say that these things make Oklahoma as Southern as the Deep South, but they do reflect the fact that Oklahoma was settled by Southerners more than any other demographic.

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## Dennis Heaton

If y'alls current address is south of the Mason-Dixon Line and east of the mighty Mississippi River...ya might be a Southerner. :-)

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## Jersey Boss

IIRC the bars and stars has not flown over the Capitol since the late 80's

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## Snowman

> IIRC the bars and stars has not flown over the Capitol since the late 80's


Why was it flying at all? Was it for special occasions or most of the year?

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## Jersey Boss

It was designated with a group of flags, I think 14 or 15 in all,  that have flown over land that is present day Oklahoma or part of present day Oklahoma. It flew during the year and not just special occasions. When the plaza underwent renovations the flag was not put back and that is why there is a flag pole there with nothing flying. It caused quite a row when the governor refused to put it back up.

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## okcpulse

> I thought about this thread when I took this quiz the other day. I would encourage everyone to take it; it's very entertaining. It was uncannily accurate for me. It plots the three cities whose native dialects most closely resemble your own. For me, it showed OKC, Tulsa, and Springfield, MO, which is interesting since I grew up in Wichita but have now lived in OKC (where my family is from and has mostly always lived) for nearly 30 years.
> 
> The quiz: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-quiz-map.html


I got Santa Clara, CA; San Jose, CA and Tucson, AZ.  Even though I have never been any further west than New Mexico, spent the first 27 years of my like in Oklahoma and 7 years in Texas, I can say my accent materialized from my extended family who spent much of their childhood on the West coast sans a few years in Germany.  The rest I picked up during high school in Edmond, where it seems my social circle was made up of California expats whose parents transferred to OKC back in the 1990s.

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## Dennis Heaton

> I thought about this thread when I took this quiz the other day. I would encourage everyone to take it; it's very entertaining. It was uncannily accurate for me. It plots the three cities whose native dialects most closely resemble your own.
> 
> The quiz: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-quiz-map.html


That was pert cool! I (born and raised in California) got Ft. Worth, San Antonio and Lubbock. I've been to San Antonio, once (1973), San Marcos, once (1980), and Wichita Falls, twice (1999). Go figure.

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