# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  Connecting downtown to Health Sciences Center

## Pete

With 4,000 students and tens of thousands employees, the Health Sciences Center is a major asset to OKC and only about a mile from the middle of our central business district.  Yet, these two areas are completely separated by a large freeway.

On the graphic below the proposed Phase II (or III) streetcar route is shown but especially if the GE Global Research Center goes in the HSC area, there would be tremendous benefit to better linking these two massive, important and ever-growing economic centers.

Other cities have buried freeways, built parks over them...  What can we do to solve this problem, other than the streetcar?

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## bchris02

I would support burying the freeway. Other cities have done that like Boston with the big dig and Phoenix with I-10. It would be cool being that there aren't many such tunnels in this region of the country.

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## catch22

From a walkability standpoint, a ton of damage has already been done that will be very hard to correct to make it urban. 

I think the 4th and Lincoln area is especially critical. It's easy to get someone to walk under an underpass as long as there is a destination on the other side. We see it with the railroad viaduct separating the CBD from Bricktown and Deep Deuce. We saw it with the old I-40 where people would park on the other side and cross underneath. We see it in the pedestrian tunnel under I-40 linking BHD to LBT.

Overpasses: very rare to see people walking across them for some reason. Lack of shelter maybe. 

So, to me the 4th and Lincoln area is very critical in getting development to form a streetwall that coincides with the development on the west of I-235, using the underpass as a pedestrian tunnel. (Lighting and some sort of public art to make it better/feel safer) and then transition back to an urban streetwall on the other side.

With some proper development and streetscape and sidewalk improvements, we could see 4th and Lincoln become a nice pedestrian corridor.






Closer view:

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## BoulderSooner

HSC is never (not anytime soon anyway)  going to be walkable to CBD.  Heck the HSC is not walkable on its own.  Which is one of the issues in bringing the streetcar there.   Where do you go?   And who do you serve?

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## catch22

I agree with you, Boulder. But, that doesn't mean we should completely give up. It will take a lot of time to un-do a lot of the walkability issues. It was built around the driving commuter, and still is.

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## Pete

The issue, IMO, is tying together the residential area of Deep Deuce / AA with the neighborhood south of 4th.  That way, people that work or go to school can fill in the area between the two.

Then you've created a linkage between the two areas that can fill in and connect.

The HSC is about the same distance from the CBD as the main developments in Midtown.

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## BoulderSooner

Right just with a giant raised interstate in between

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## lasomeday

I agree with Catch22.  We need to start having zoning that requires the street wall.  The OIPA's buidling set back is suburban and that area is a waste.  Everything east of 2-35 is suburban developed.  Expanding the density zoning is a must to tie the two together.

Also eliminate the cloverleafs.  That is a ton of wasted real estate creating half of the barrier.

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## betts

I've walked from Deep Deuce to the HSC a few times a year.  You can also walk to 8th St. and catch the shuttle as well.  It's not bad, really as long as the weather is decent.

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## Just the facts

_You have to decide what kind of city you want, because the city is just a means to way of life_. - Enrique Penalosa

While OKC has made some progress but the needle is still pegged far to the 'automobile' side of the guage.  It is going to take a lot of people (maybe over 100,000) just to fill in Deep Deuce, CBD, Brictown, Midtown (which will become 3 or 4 unique neighboods), Auto Alley, Film Row and Core to Shore.  Instead of a uniform pattern of density iminating out from downtown the 2nd ring urbanism will probable be more 'tent pole' in natue.  HSC, Plaza District, Capial Hill, Stockyard City, Paseo, and maybe even Brittany can develop as centers of their own neighborhoods, with high density at the center with decreasing density as you move away from it.  A cross-section would look like this: 'High - medium - low - medium - high - medium - low - medium - high', with the high's being about 1 mile apart and containing the transit stops.

The next step shouldn't be how to connect downtown and HSC, it should be to create a defined center of the HSC and urbanize it.  Once you have that then connecting high density nodes is easy. I also wouldn't shed a tear if I-235 was removed when its initial life expectancy is reached.

So how do you urbanize the HSC?  Step 1 should be to create a development plan for HSC that actually involves the public.  To my knowledge the previous plans were developed by a single entity with little to no public input; and if they did seek public input in the past it is safe to say a lot more people are interested in the subject now that any time in the last 50 years.  This plan should include deciding if HSC should be a mixed-use neighborhood or a medical district, moving away from modern single use zoning to a form based smart code, and incentives for in-fill.

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## HotStuff80

Just a thought:  As a now-retired Physician, I can tell all that in many cases, patients cannot walk (due to various medical problems) over 1/2 a standard city block.  Whatever conveyance they use, should be able to let them depart from it almost at the doorstep of their destination.  Of course, this is much more easily accomplished in a city of 800,000 + which is only 7 x 7 miles (49 square miles).

We here in San Francisco, are fortunate, in that many city modes of transportation can let patients out in front of each medical clinic, hospital or other health care unit, of which they are members, or prefer to access for their medical care.  If that is not possible, many facilities manage their own vans which take patents to-and-from places on their campus areas... all for free.

Just give this some thought.  Thanks.

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## Just the facts

> We here in San Francisco, are fortunate, in that many city modes of transportation can let patients out in front of each medical clinic, hospital or other health care unit, of which they are members, or prefer to access for their medical care.


That would be great if in OKC the front door was adjacent to the sidewalk where public transit operates.  Even with a streetcar most people will have to walk across a flower bed, a hedge row, across a massive parking lot, or up a driveway without a sidewalk just to get to the front door of nearly every building in the HSC campus.

HSC needs to be made walkable first.

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## CaptDave

^ The default OKC solution is valet parking at hospitals.....for now.

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## Tier2City

I posted this comment over on the GE Research Center thread:

"Given that Miles & Associates designed the nearby PHF Research Park it will be interesting to see how urban the new site design is. Will an urban Midtown expand over the highway as the greater downtown districts are stitched back together?"

And Pete then pointed out that issue was exactly why he had started this thread.  Perhaps cafeboeuf can answer - which body has design approval over this area?

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## Urban Pioneer

I've given up worrying about it. The current leadership has embraced a suburban design and there is no movement on any level (particularly political) to change.

Lets double the density of downtown and hope we set an example that other adjacent districts will follow.

JFK neighborhood is probably the best area where would could achieve density through new design. OUHSC proper is on a different path.

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## CuatrodeMayo

Ive been thinking about this problem for a couple of years, but this thread gave me the impetus to put it down on paper as a blog post.  I sketched this up over Thanksgiving.  Click through for more information.

http://andrewkstewart.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/centennial-park/

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## bradh

Love it, should be good for MAPS9  :Wink: 

That's awfully similar to Woodall Rogers in Dallas, right?

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## CuatrodeMayo

Yes.  The same concept as Klyde Warren Park.

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## dmoor82

I would love to see something so ambitious to tie in the two areas, it would also create huge development opportunities. A project of this magnitude would be over a Billion Dollars, I'm guessing?

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## Pete

THAT's what I'm talking about!

Awesome job, Andrew.

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## Urbanized

That's a pretty amazing thing to think about.

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## metro

Has anyone else seen this proposed concept? I know it's wishful thinking but wanted to see what others thought. I like the idea of re-connecting the grid and making better use of interstate space in the urban core.

http://andrewkstewart.wordpress.com/...ntennial-park/




Mods - if you can change title to I-235 instead of I-240, it was an oversight on my part.

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## sroberts24

Yes Please!

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## OKVision4U

I am beginning to see a pattern here.  All your designs make "way too much sense".    If you are not the Lead on All Planning for OKC, then you should be.  Great work again!  

Whoever is placing these Clover-leafs in any of our new projects, should be ground for immediate dismissal.  Dallas took the Central Expressway 75 and tightened their designs up with a business friendly approach.  I like your approach so much more.  This should not be a MAPS project, but a project that needs to happen immediately by the ODOT.  Well done.

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## Plutonic Panda

That is so sick!!!!!!!

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## Urban Pioneer

Neat idea. Wish we had done exactly this with the new MAPS 3 Park and new I-40.

Damn ODOT.

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## CaptDave

Cuatro de Mayo is at it again. Good lord will someone get him a gig on the OKC planning staff even if only as a consultant in common sense and vision? (That isn't meant to demean the folks on the planning staff now - they have a pretty tough draw in the city staff power structure.)

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## BoulderSooner

Any one have a spare 1,000,000,000 dollars.

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## Lazio85

I don't see any highway off-ramps for anyone going north or southbound on I-235.

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## BG918

Really like this concept.  It needs to be updated with the GE Research Center at NE 10 & Walnut.

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## Platemaker

Great idea.

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## OKCisOK4me

Yes & yes please!

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## CaptDave

> Any one have a spare 1,000,000,000 dollars.


I pictured you saying that in character as Dr Evil!  :Wink:

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## Spartan

Wow. Yes.

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## Urbanized

Lazio85 makes a good point; those ramps are probably the most-used access to downtown (and OUHSC) from other parts of the city. Removing that access altogether would probably have some crippling unintended consequences. But it seems there could probably be some sort of solution/tweak that addresses this.

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## HOT ROD

just a point, isn't this "I-235" and not I-240?

Anyway, Love the new "Centennial Park" over I-235 yet still maintaining the freeway passage. Hope this idea gains traction and reality someday.

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## Just the facts

Here is a section of the E5 around Paris.  If you get a chance go to Google Earth and see how much they have built over this highway.

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## Just the facts

Wouldn't the area above I-235 be perfect for the a new soccer stadium in OKC?

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## shawnw

In Cuatro's map 235 comes out of the ground at 4th, meaning having a stadium in Bricktown wouldn't work, as the highway would have to elevate to get over the river and I-40. In that scenario, I'm not sure between 4th and 10th and between downtown proper and HSC is the best place for a stadium because it creates a new divide, which we're trying to get rid of by burying 235, right?

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## Just the facts

That all depends on what the site plan looks like.  If they put a giant surface parking lot around the stadium, then yes, that would create a barrier.  If they made it a neighborhood stadium then it would increase walkability.  The stadium I posted above has housing units within 100 feet of it.  The no-mans land along the I-235 corridor is nearly 1000 feet wide.

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## Just the facts

OIPA
Toby Keith Kids Corral
Embassy Suites
GE

Is there really any interest in making the HSC area walkable and connecting it to a streetcar line?

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## OKVision4U

> Wouldn't the area above I-235 be perfect for the a new soccer stadium in OKC?


JTF, ...that would be a great spot for the New MLS Soccer / Olympic Stadium.  ;-)

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## Lazio85

> Lazio85 makes a good point; those ramps are probably the most-used access to downtown (and OUHSC) from other parts of the city. Removing that access altogether would probably have some crippling unintended consequences. But it seems there could probably be some sort of solution/tweak that addresses this.


For example, I would have to exit at 13th street and drive through all of Automobile Alley to get to work everyday. Easily increasing my commute time with current new developments for everything between there and Midtown (not complaining that is a good thing). I will play around with this concept as well and get it out here as soon as possible. Great work on what you have developed so far CuatrodeMayo!

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## ljbab728

Steve's update on what is being looked at and considered.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5364931?embargo=1




> After spurning commercial and retail development for three decades, a sharp reversal is about to take place in the 300-acre area sometimes known as the Oklahoma Health Center, or the Health Sciences District, or the OU Medical Center.
> The answer being pursued by the area’s biggest players is an “innovation district,” which would add some color and vibrancy to what is now a very institutional neighborhood.
> A Brookings Institute report released in June provided Williams with inspiration; the analysis showed how cities across the world are creating “innovation districts” out of old industrialized areas, suburban science and research parks, and around institutions located in or near central city downtowns.

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## boitoirich

> Steve's update on what is being looked at and considered.
> 
> http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5364931?embargo=1


Hell. Yes.

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## AP

Officials seek to liven up institutional atmosphere of Health Sciences District in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

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## AP

This is what we've been begging for. I'm really excited for this.

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## boitoirich

> This is what we've been begging for. I'm really excited for this.


+1

The urbanization of this area, combined with a plan to heal the scar caused by the Broadway extension, would be phenomenal.

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## Laramie

> The first steps are underway, with a resolution of support approved by the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority on Tuesday. As all the area’s involved organizations sign on, a consultant will be hired and plans will be drawn up on how to recruit developers and determine whether a new governing body is needed.


This area (HSC) will integrate a collage of various key research components along with a school to develop the state's top math & science students. The future of our city (medical, biomedical, pharmaceutical, oil & gas technology), a 'Rembrandt' for research & technology in our backyard.    A real tapestry of talent in an area to be redeveloped.  

  
G.E. Global Research Center, OKC . . . . . . . Charles & Peggy Stephenson Cancer Center . . . . . . Children's' Hospital
  
V.A. Hospital . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OU College of Medicine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OU PHF Research Park
Someone needs to figure out something and come up with a solution for this area?   

*Does Oklahoma City have any 'clue' about the potential this area possesses.*
There will be more spin-off firms as the G.E. Global Research Technology Center and the research industry expands & develops.

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## boitoirich

After my doctor's appointment, I walked this area for a bit and drove around it for a little while. I'm convinced that just a bit of savvy retrofitting and an urban building code for future projects could make this area very walkable. It's not as far gone as seems. Some basic requirements will be:

1. Mixed use developments on surface lots, including residential/retail/commercial
2. Eliminating the grassy moats fronting NE 10th St
3. A possible tower or two to consolidate a couple of the lower land-use value offices. 
4. This area could use both a cultural anchor and a recreational anchor of some sort. 
5. Lincoln and Lottie represent real opportunities to connect downtown to the Eastside -- there needs to be some way to make these attractive, invited boulevards

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## HOT ROD

we need urban master plans for OKC in general.

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## ljbab728

> Someone needs to figure out something and come up with a solution for this area?   
> 
> *Does Oklahoma City have any 'clue' about the potential this area possesses.*
> There will be more spin-off firms as the G.E. Global Research Technology Center and the research industry expands & develops.


Umm, I think that is what the planning for an "innovation district" will be all about.

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## Laramie

> Umm, I think that is what the planning for an "innovation district" will be all about.


A step in the right direction.  What functions will this 'innovation district' have; something that the city will abide by or will it just be another advisory group with gums?

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## ChrisHayes

I drove through that area on 235 just last night and one idea I had, though lofty, was building a wide bridge across 235. Make it like a hundred or couple hundred feet wide and keep enough to put a layer of dirt and maybe a bike/walking path on. The end result would be a short tunnel on 235 and the two districts connected.

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## boitoirich

> I drove through that area on 235 just last night and one idea I had, though lofty, was building a wide bridge across 235. Make it like a hundred or couple hundred feet wide and keep enough to put a layer of dirt and maybe a bike/walking path on. The end result would be a short tunnel on 235 and the two districts connected.


His name is CuatroDeMayo. He is the resident badass of OKCTalk
https://andrewkstewart.wordpress.com...ntennial-park/

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## sroberts24

I would rather see Cuatro's idea come to life than Core to Shore!  This would be so awesome and truly connect the neighborhoods and expand downtown.  I guess it is a fantasy considering the city would have to work with ODOT to ever get this implemented.

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## Urbanized

Not to mention it would probably be a billion dollar project. Maybe some day when our population has tripled. MAPS VII maybe?

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## AP

> His name is CuatroDeMayo. He is the resident badass of OKCTalk
> https://andrewkstewart.wordpress.com...ntennial-park/


But no longer a resident of OKC  :Frown:

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## CuatrodeMayo

Like many of my ideas (Market Circle, etc), these drawings are created merely to spur conversations, stir the imagination, and suggest change. It's more about the IDEA of spanning the freeway than a an actual, viable, plan for doing so.

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## Grant

> Like many of my ideas (Market Circle, etc), these drawings are created merely to spur conversations, stir the imagination, and suggest change. It's more about the IDEA of spanning the freeway than a an actual, viable, plan for doing so.


While we're on the subject (and now slightly off topic), I want to drop in and say how fantastic your Market Circle concept is. Seriously great work there. I absolutely love it. 10/10, would build.

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## boitoirich

> Not to mention it would probably be a billion dollar project. Maybe some day when our population has tripled. MAPS VII maybe?


I doubt this would be $1 billion. Klyde Warren Park in Dallas was $100 million for 0.2 miles (cap + park). A Univ. of Texas proposal to cap a one-mile portion of I-35 through downtown Austin is estimated at $550 million. CDM's park would run 0.8 mi., and, using those comps as estimates, could be built for around $450 million.

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## stlokc

In Downtown STL, they are capping one block of interstate highway with park space as part of a larger plan to "connect" the Arch grounds to the heart of Downtown. 

St. Louis Gateway Arch Grounds Project | CityArchRiver 2015

The "cap" over the highway looks to be $26 million. The entire project is $250 million.

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## Plutonic Panda

> In Downtown STL, they are capping one block of interstate highway with park space as part of a larger plan to "connect" the Arch grounds to the heart of Downtown. 
> 
> St. Louis Gateway Arch Grounds Project | CityArchRiver 2015
> 
> The "cap" over the highway looks to be $26 million. The entire project is $250 million.


WOW WOW WOW!!!

This will be amazing!

Here is direct link to the before and after. When you switch from a picture, you slide the bar above the pic to view what it will be. Very neat and this should really liven up the area!

CityArchRiver 2015 | Slider Gallery

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## CuatrodeMayo

> In Downtown STL, they are capping one block of interstate highway with park space as part of a larger plan to "connect" the Arch grounds to the heart of Downtown. 
> 
> St. Louis Gateway Arch Grounds Project | CityArchRiver 2015
> 
> The "cap" over the highway looks to be $26 million. The entire project is $250 million.


This looks incredible (and much-needed). Very cool.

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## Laramie

MAPs has been a godsend for OKC.   Now when I look at a city very similar to ours; Omaha comes to mind.  They do not have a vehicle like MAPs at their disposal.  Yet, the times I have visited Nebraska's largest city, their growth appears modest--getting better.    We are growing at a much faster rate.

I've been impressed with their medical center area; especially with the recent cases in the way they have handled the Ebola outbreak.

My brother works at the OU Medical Center (Lab); he's close to his second retirement.   They are well-equipped to handle most anything.  Especially their trauma center.    He has talked with doctors who want the areas' cosmetics advanced.    There appears to be some concern with the visionary outlook for that area.  

My personal (services from McGee Eye Institute, OU Physicians, OU Family Medicine, Pharmacy) experience in that area as it develops is walkability.  Once I use the parking garage, it's pure shoe-leather from there on.    I recall how difficult it was for me to get around in that area from Stanton L. Young, 10th & 13th streets.

Omaha seems to have a much better diagram with the way they have planned and coordinated their medical facilities.     One my aunts lived there for years, I recall our visit there how similar it was to OKC.    University of Oklahoma's expanded medical presence in that area will make the difference.   

Just wonder if there's any areas in which MAPs could be incorporated into the OU Medical Center area where it could be a game changer or difference maker connecting downtown.

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## ljbab728

> Just wonder if there's any areas in which MAPs could be incorporated into the OU Medical Center area where it could be a game changer or difference maker connecting downtown.


The only way I see that happening with a future MAPS would be with transit.

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## Spartan

> Like many of my ideas (Market Circle, etc), these drawings are created merely to spur conversations, stir the imagination, and suggest change. It's more about the IDEA of spanning the freeway than a an actual, viable, plan for doing so.


But it is an actual, viable idea that should be done. Ohio ODOT has recently gotten in the habit of building a lot of urban freeway caps in Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland. 

Cincy's freeway separating it from the Ohio River is getting capped:


A series of double caps over 670 in Columbus between Downtown and the Short North 



Long Street Cultural Bridge in Columbus connecting downtown and a historically important African American area


South High and Front Street caps connecting downtown and the Brewery District


Innerbelt reconstruction in Cleveland which widens it but eliminated room for exits, so caps are used to create room for exits without tearing down historic buildings


And of course the grand daddy of them all, the Big Dig


LA is getting freeway caps that hide its huge freeways and give it sorely needed greenspace


Chicago is finally capping the Kennedy Expressway


St. Louis should have capped 70 to connect the city to the Arch long ago


Dallas built Klyde Warren Park connecting the Arts District across the Woodall Rogers Freeway


If we didn't have a DOT that was stuck in the stone ages, we would be doing these, too.

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## bchris02

> If we didn't have a DOT that was stuck in the stone ages, we would be doing these, too.


That's the thing.  As we've seen from the Boulevard discussion, its very difficult to convince ODOT to think outside the box.  In your opinion what should be done to change that?  I am sure funding is also an issue.  The extravagant highway projects being built in large cities in more affluent states likely cost more than ODOT has the ability to spend.

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## Plutonic Panda

> But it is an actual, viable idea that should be done. Ohio ODOT has recently gotten in the habit of building a lot of urban freeway caps in Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland. 
> 
> Cincy's freeway separating it from the Ohio River is getting capped:
> 
> 
> A series of double caps over 670 in Columbus between Downtown and the Short North 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't forget, Dallas is also trying either remove or cap Central Expressway.

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## mugofbeer

Only the part between I-30 and Woodall Rogers.  Not the entire Central Expressway.  From what I read, not much chance of it being removed

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## Buffalo Bill

> I am sure funding is also an issue.  The extravagant highway projects being built in large cities in more affluent states likely cost more than ODOT has the ability to spend.


Ya think?  Boitoi's estimate above represents about 80% of their annual budget. Good luck getting rural legislators, Tulsa, and everyone else to say, yeah we just want to cap 235.

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## boitoirich

If we were able to get it built, the tagline for Centennial Park should be "Sometimes you _can_ fix stupid."

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## Spartan

> If we were able to get it built, the tagline for Centennial Park should be "Sometimes you _can_ fix stupid."


Why not, that's exactly what it's about. Urban Renewal freeways were always a messy order of business, and OKDOT shouldn't have built them in the first place if they didn't have the resources for proper mitigation. 

I believe Tulsa is generating discussion about freeway caps, so already it sounds like there should be a majority of people in the state wanting one. Klyde Warren Park in Dallas (over Woodall Rogers) was $110MM, which I don't think is too bad, but if that is bad we should look at the Ohio freeway caps which are just bridges extended and reinforced to support a building or a park.

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## HOT ROD

I suspect Tulsa would support a cap if they got one first. lol.

Joke aside, I wonder if a coordinated effort could be launched so that the cap included streetcar connection into the OHC and then overall budgets were consistent. This is where I always argue that OKC needs master planning to guide development and coordinate expenditures.

As an aside: I'm actually surprised that I-40 didn't include a cap for the new Union Park. If it did, you'd truly have a continuous greenspace from the CBD down to the river. While I appreciate the 'statement' that was meant to be made by the pedestrian bridge, you really can't see it too well from the freeway due to all of the bridges blocking it on approach (IMO).

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## bchris02

I would say a cap over I-235 should be a part of MAPS4, but I don't know if the city would have any say in it being that its ODOT property.  Would any freeway cap have to be proposed and funded entirely by ODOT?  It is a cool idea though and it would be great if there would be a way to make it happen without having to get Tulsa and rural Oklahoma on board.

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## boitoirich

The time has come for an autonomous Central Oklahoma Department of Transportation. 

But I'll admit my bias, I think cities manage themselves much better than states do anyway.

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## Spartan

> I would say a cap over I-235 should be a part of MAPS4, but I don't know if the city would have any say in it being that its ODOT property.  Would any freeway cap have to be proposed and funded entirely by ODOT?  It is a cool idea though and it would be great if there would be a way to make it happen without having to get Tulsa and rural Oklahoma on board.


Why should OKC pay for something that ODOT should pay for?

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## catcherinthewry

> Why should OKC pay for something that ODOT should pay for?


Why would ODOT pay for it? A cap over I-235 would do nothing for transportation.  It would strictly be a beautification/quality of life project.

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## Prunepicker

> His name is CuatroDeMayo. He is the resident badass of OKCTalk.


And a really nice guy with a cute kid.

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## Spartan

> Why would ODOT pay for it? A cap over I-235 would do nothing for transportation.  It would strictly be a beautification/quality of life project.


Yes, of their piece of infrastructure that screwed up the city.

DOTs in most states actually do  this thing called "mitigation" for freeway projects. ODOT will never do it if we don't ask to be treated like citizens in a regular city/state that wouldn't tolerate that kind of DOT.

Planners in most other states would be astonished at what ODOT routinely gets away with here.

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## Just the facts

Freeway caps are literally just covering up the problem.  The freeway is the problem whether you can see it or not.  Be wary of anything that attempts to recreate the dreams of Le Corbusier.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Yes, of their piece of infrastructure that screwed up the city.
> 
> DOTs in most states actually do  this thing called "mitigation" for freeway projects. ODOT will never do it if we don't ask to be treated like citizens in a regular city/state that wouldn't tolerate that kind of DOT.
> 
> Planners in most other states would be astonished at what ODOT routinely gets away with here.


Screwed up the city. That's a good one.

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## Prunepicker

> Screwed up the city. That's a good one.


I can't help but notice that the exits and on ramps are so screwed up.  Did these 
planners ever drive on the Crosstown?  A ramp for Shields?  Really?  

If you miss the Shields on ramp you can't access I-40 until Meridian.  That's stupid.  
Of course if there's an on ramp between Shields and Meridian I'd like to know about 
it.

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## ljbab728

> I can't help but notice that the exits and on ramps are so screwed up.  Did these 
> planners ever drive on the Crosstown?  A ramp for Shields?  Really?  
> 
> If you miss the Shields on ramp you can't access I-40 until Meridian.  That's stupid.  
> Of course if there's an on ramp between Shields and Meridian I'd like to know about 
> it.


Have you heard about a street called Western or maybe the Crosstown Blvd.?  The last time I checked they are between Shield and Meridian.  And don't forget the Agnew/Villa ramps.

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## Buffalo Bill

> Have you heard about a street called Western or maybe the Crosstown Blvd.?  The last time I checked they are between Shield and Meridian.  And don't forget the Agnew/Villa ramps.


There's also a westbound on ramp at Portland.

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## Spartan

> Freeway caps are literally just covering up the problem.  The freeway is the problem whether you can see it or not.  Be wary of anything that attempts to recreate the dreams of Le Corbusier.


No, freeway caps are not covering up the problem. You gotta have freeways, and while OKC shouldn't have built 235, it did and now it relies on it. A freeway cap is an easy win-win for the city and the greater region.

This is what was torn down to build 235:


Here is a link to a massive aerial pano of the otherwise strong urban fabric that 235 is slicing up. It's a visible scar through downtown from above.
http://www.aerialok.com/wp-content/u...9665-OUHSC.jpg

----------


## Just the facts

Well you can't build that on top of a cap and all the problems associated with freeways - from encouraging sprawl to the cost of maintenance are still there - and in fact - the maintenance cost we already can't afford would be even higher.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> No, freeway caps are not covering up the problem. You gotta have freeways, and while OKC shouldn't have built 235, it did and now it relies on it. A freeway cap is an easy win-win for the city and the greater region.
> 
> This is what was torn down to build 235:
> 
> 
> Here is a link to a massive aerial pano of the otherwise strong urban fabric that 235 is slicing up. It's a visible scar through downtown from above.
> http://www.aerialok.com/wp-content/u...9665-OUHSC.jpg


Beautiful cityscape. I still support them being torn down and the highway being built in their place.

----------


## HOT ROD

> *Well you can't build that on top of a cap* and all the problems associated with freeways - from encouraging sprawl to the cost of maintenance are still there - and in fact - the maintenance cost we already can't afford would be even higher.


yes you can

----------


## boitoirich

> Beautiful cityscape. I still support them being torn down and the highway being built in their place.


Plu, the destruction of Deep Deuce was much more than  tearing down some cityscape to build a highway.

----------


## Laramie

> Plu, the destruction of Deep Deuce was much more than  tearing down some cityscape to build a highway.


Amen, so true my bro...

It was the heart, mind & soul of those who grew up in the *Deep Deuce-Oak Park additions* (Page-Woodson).  It represented the epitome of the OKC black renaissance where Charlie Christian, Jimmy Rushing, "Count" Basie, Blue Devils Band, Langston Hughes, Ralph Ellison (Invisible Man), Judge Vicki Miles-LaGrange, Dr. G.E. Finley, Dr. E. C. Moon, Dr. Frank Cox, Dr. W. K. Jackson, Dr. E. Jennings Perry, Abram Ross, Russell M. Perry, Roscoe Dunjee,  Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher, Earl Temple,  Prentice Gautt and Dr. Ben Hart left their imprint.  

A big chapter of Oklahoma City's black history lives in the memory of Deep Deuce (once known as Oklahoma City's  Black Business District).

Rich history of Deep Deuce deserves to be told | News OK

----------


## Prunepicker

I played a Lecture/Concert series called Charlie Christian through the Eyes of Ralph Ellison.
The program was performed at Douglas HS, Boley, Clearview, Lawton and the 
Historical Society and Langston University.

BLAC funded the project and it was very informative and entertaining.

There's talk of it continuing next year.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Plu, the destruction of Deep Deuce was much more than  tearing down some cityscape to build a highway.


I didn't even know that was considered Deep Deuce.

----------


## Prunepicker

> I didn't even know that was considered Deep Deuce.


I'm pretty sure that Deep Deuce waned away on it's own.  I have 
a black friend who lived during DD.  He didn't think much of it.  There 
are a lot of rumors and urban legends involved with DD.

I wasn't there.  My friend was and he IS black.

----------


## Laramie

> I'm pretty sure that Deep Deuce waned away on it's own.  I have 
> a black friend who lived during DD.  He didn't think much of it.  There 
> are a lot of rumors and urban legends involved with DD.
> 
> I wasn't there.  *My friend was and he IS black*.


Wow!  I don't know what to say:   Your friend sounds like a white handkerchief head (Doesn't identify with blacks).

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I'm pretty sure that Deep Deuce waned away on it's own.  I have 
> a black friend who lived during DD.  He didn't think much of it.  There 
> are a lot of rumors and urban legends involved with DD.
> 
> I wasn't there.  My friend was and he IS black.


I am not proud to say this buy I don't know that much about Deep Deuce other than it was a significant historic community for African Americans. I need to learn more about it.

----------


## bchris02

> Well you can't build that on top of a cap and all the problems associated with freeways - from encouraging sprawl to the cost of maintenance are still there - and in fact - the maintenance cost we already can't afford would be even higher.


OKC relies on I-235 today and removing it entirely would cause so many traffic problems.  It isn't a realistic possibility.   Capping it is the middle ground solution that allows the highway to remain but also allows an opportunity for urban fabric or at least a park to bridge the gap between the two sides.

----------


## Laramie

Different versions sung by Barbara Streisand, Gladys Knight & Diana Ross, it's all the same.

Deep Deuce is history like many other neighborhoods;  Walnut Grove, Sandtown and there was one IIRC called the  Civics' Republic.   These places had memories for a lot of people.   What occurred with these neighborhoods has passed.  

It's not for me or anyone to attempt to justify the destruction of those neighborhoods;  they were important to a lot of people in their day.

It's time to move on with progress...

----------


## Prunepicker

> Wow!  I don't know what to say:   Your friend sounds like a white handkerchief 
> head (Doesn't identify with blacks).


I'm not how you came up with that.  Maybe DD really wasn't as big of a deal 
as it is today.

----------


## hoya

How important Deep Deuce was to someone probably depends on exactly when they lived there, and what they were into.  You could live in Norman during the height of the Bud Wilkinson era, and if you didn't like football, you'd think there was nothing to do.  If PP's friend lived in Deep Deuce after it's glory days, well, it wasn't the construction of I-235 that led to its decline.  235 just finished it off.

----------


## traxx

> There are a lot of rumors and urban legends involved with DD.


Such as.

----------


## Spartan

> How important Deep Deuce was to someone probably depends on exactly when they lived there, and what they were into.  You could live in Norman during the height of the Bud Wilkinson era, and if you didn't like football, you'd think there was nothing to do.  If PP's friend lived in Deep Deuce after it's glory days, well, it wasn't the construction of I-235 that led to its decline.  235 just finished it off.


Do you know what ended Deep Deuce's glory days?

I am curious if it just waxed and waned with the ebb and flow of the Black Renaissance.. in which case, modern-day gentrification isn't an unfitting legacy.

----------


## Prunepicker

> Such as.


Charlie Christian playing with the Blue Devils.  It didn't happen.

----------


## HOT ROD

You know, I was driving around our expansive campus today between meetings and realized that we have a small freeway cap over WA-520 that connects both sides of Microsoft. I never even thought about it but today I did remember the cap not being there and there being a significant hindrance to getting around. It's just so commonplace today that one doesn't even think that it is indeed a 2009 or so construction because the expansive campus feels connected with it. 

I think something even as simple as our little Freeway cap could work in OKC at Harrison Avenue probably (similar diagonal bridge, similar freeway and somewhat similar development (now) on both sides). Looks like Microsoft paid for most of it ($17M) but we did use some federal stimulus money to help build it. I'd imagine it shouldn't be too expensive to build something similar in OKC. ...

What's funny is even back then 'freeway cap' verbiage was not commonplace (or at least wasn't up here, since the Seattle Times calls it a bridge but it really is a landscaped, pedestrianized cap with bike trails running diagonally over 520).

----------


## Prunepicker

Urbanized,
Thanks for your like.  This can become a hotly contested topic.

----------


## Prunepicker

> Such as.


MLK leading a march over the Walnut street bridge into OKC in 1960.  
Yes, he spoke at the famous Calvary Baptist Church.  That's a fact.

At any rate, I can't find any information that MLK, whom I admire very much, 
ever led a march in OKC.

----------


## mugofbeer

I know it won't be popular with some of you on this page, but I disagree with the notion of a highway splitting neighborhoods.  I grew up with I-44 next to my house north of the fairgrounds and in no way have I ever felt the highway split those on the west side with those on the east side.  I will agree that having no busy parallel roadways and frequent crossings of the highway helps so perhaps those crossings (that occur every 3-4 blocks near the CBD) could be redesigned and/or widened with ample pedestrian and bicycle lanes.  The huge amounts of money needed to "cap" I-235 the way it was designed, would be far better spent speeding up reconstruction of other highway interchanges around town or replacing other areas of our city infrastructure.  If money is to be spent on aesthetics, I'd rather see it go to burying power lines.

----------


## adaniel

> I know it won't be popular with some of you on this page, but I disagree with the notion of a highway splitting neighborhoods.  I grew up with I-44 next to my house north of the fairgrounds and in no way have I ever felt the highway split those on the west side with those on the east side.


With all due respect, your experience as a child is completely different than most because I 44 was largely built within the Grand Blvd ROW. Little if any homes were taken for this. Whereas 235 literally blasted through the middle of a neighborhood along no existing "grain" of development.

----------


## HOT ROD

> With all due respect, your experience as a child is completely different than most because I 44 was largely built within the Grand Blvd ROW. Little if any homes were taken for this. Whereas *235 literally blasted through the middle of a neighborhood* along no existing "grain" of development.


I think one can probably make that same argument for I-35 in the Eastside of NE OKC and also I-44 in the Eastside section though it was less developed here. Perhaps I-35 in the Southside too?

----------


## Prunepicker

> I think one can probably make that same argument for I-35 in the Eastside of NE 
> OKC and also I-44 in the Eastside section though it was less developed here. 
> Perhaps I-35 in the Southside too?


When I-35 was built I don't remember it taking out very many houses.  The 
Moore area wasn't built up that much.  I-40 was different.

----------


## Laramie

I-35 wiped out a lot of housing on the east side along with Black Hawk Amusement Park.

----------


## Buffalo Bill

> I 44 was largely built within the Grand Blvd ROW. Little if any homes were taken for this.


Simply not true.  Grand was a 2 lane path.  The construction of 44 took maybe 16 houses per block. 

http://www.okctalk.com/images/1969/196923portland.jpg

----------


## mugofbeer

In the section from 10th to 23rd, 44 took one house per block per side in most places.  Its interesting to see my old house when I was a kid in that photo

----------


## ljbab728

> In the section from 10th to 23rd, 44 took one house per block per side in most places.  Its interesting to see my old house when I was a kid in that photo


I know the same thing happened just north of SW 29th Street.  My aunt and uncle owned a house on the East side of Grand which was taken.

----------


## Prunepicker

Can we get back to connecting downtown to the Health Sciences Center?

What's the most important factor in connecting the two?

----------


## Spartan

urban fabric.

----------


## Prunepicker

> urban fabric.


Unless you mean the  fabric of the urban area what do you mean?

----------


## Prunepicker

I've always thought that NW 13 *WAS* the connection to the Health Sciences Center.

Is there a part of the city that doesn't have a direct line to the HSC?  Seriously.

I honestly don't see any problem with getting to the Health Sciences Center from 
any part of OKC.  That includes SE, SW, NE and NW OKC.  

Just what is the problem?

----------


## Spartan

Urban fabric relates to the built environment, which in this case is broken up by 235. While other states have found innovative ways to mitigate and bridge these urban expressways, Oklahoma has not, which could be an impactful thing to improve. Downtown is expanding, and the Health Sciences area would be a valuable connection, which means more than just an auto bridge, it needs to have buildings, sidewalks, and activity all the way across. This is the idea that healthy neighborhoods should be connected to other healthy neighborhoods, which the Health Sciences area is not.

----------


## Prunepicker

> Urban fabric relates to the built environment, which in this case is broken up by  
>  235. While other states have found innovative ways to mitigate and bridge these  
>  urban expressways, Oklahoma has not, which could be an impactful thing to  
>  improve.


 Are you saying that it's hard to connect to the Health Sciences Center?  I  
 believe it's the easiest place in OKC to get to.



> Downtown is expanding, and the Health Sciences area would be a valuable  
>  connection, which means more than just an auto bridge, it needs to have buildings,  
>  sidewalks, and activity all the way across. This is the idea that healthy neighborhoods  
>  should be connected to other healthy neighborhoods, which the Health Sciences  
>  area is not.


 Except for it being the most easily accesible place in OKC what do you believe  
 makes it not so easy?

 Seriously.

Day or night, the HSC is the easiest place in OKC to get to.

----------


## hoya

Easy to drive there.  Not so easy to walk there.  Oh sure, there are like, roads and things.  But studies have shown that big undeveloped areas and parking lots are impediments to walking.  People are always thinking "it sure would be easy for a rapist or a serial killer to be hiding out here in the bushes".  And then they don't walk there anymore.

That's why you need an environment that makes people feel comfortable about walking.  You need buildings, you need stores, you need a place where walking is convenient.  Bricktown has that.  The area between downtown and the HSC doesn't.  It feels rapey.

----------


## Prunepicker

> Easy to drive there. Not so easy to walk there.


 True.  OKC is a huge city.  Most people don't realize that Chicago, NYC and  
 San Francisco can all fit inside of OKC and leave room for another major city.



> Oh sure, there are like, roads and things. But studies have shown that big  
>  undeveloped areas and parking lots are impediments to walking. People are  
>  always thinking "it sure would be easy for a rapist or a serial killer to be hiding  
>  out here in the bushes". And then they don't walk there anymore.


 Which would make OKC like the major cities everyone wants it to be.



> That's why you need an environment that makes people feel comfortable about  
>  walking.


 Which OKC does.



> You need buildings, you need stores, you need a place where walking is convenient. Bricktown has that. The area between downtown and the HSC doesn't. It feels rapey.


 Thank you for telling us that OKC is better than most metropolitan areas.

As soon as these folk realize the superiority of OKC, i.e. pull their heads out 
of the sand...  Wait.  Those people don't count.  

Never mind.

----------


## hoya

> True.  OKC is a huge city.  Most people don't realize that Chicago, NYC and  
>  San Francisco can all fit inside of OKC and leave room for another major city.
> 
>  Which would make OKC like the major cities everyone wants it to be.
> 
>  Which OKC does.
> 
>  Thank you for telling us that OKC is better than most metropolitan areas.
> 
> ...


You went off on an enormous tangent there.  The point of the thread is to make it feel safe and convenient to walk from Deep Deuce to the HSC, because right now it doesn't feel safe or convenient.

----------


## AP

Don't feed the troll. There is no need to argue with someone who you know will never change their mind.

----------


## Prunepicker

> You went off on an enormous tangent there.  The point of the thread is to make it 
> feel safe and convenient to walk from Deep Deuce to the HSC, because right now it 
> doesn't feel safe or convenient.


Perhaps.

What exactly is the reason people don't feel safe?

----------


## boitoirich

I-235 is not the only problem with connecting the two areas. When I run to Deep Deuce, Lincoln actually presents the bigger impediment.

----------


## Spartan

Isn't Lincoln like 8 lanes across at that point, too?

----------


## boitoirich

> Isn't Lincoln like 8 lanes across at that point, too?


Yes, and that's not even where the problems begin. Here I've highlighted the four problem areas a pedestrian heading from Deep Deuce to the community center across Lincoln Blvd. will face.



1 
A) The sidewalk is unprotected. A planted verge would be helpful, especially because cars swoop down NE 4th St quickly owing to its poor design. 
B) A proper bicycle lane on each side would help to calm traffic, and encourage active uses from Deep Deuce all the way to Washington Park, across from the anticipated Page Woodson redevelopment.
C) No building frontage alone the sidewalk. The pedestrian feels exposed and vulnerable.

2
A) This is busy slip lane. One has to rely on the generosity of each particular vehicle operator in order to be sure that entering the crosswalk will be safe. 
B) Elimination of the slip lane, which will be repurposed into a protected bike lane, and forcing motorists to make right turns at the light like a normal intersection dramatically improves this intersection.

3
A) 8 lanes of traffic.
B) The median and slip lanes make this crossing feel more like 10 lanes to the pedestrian.
C) The width of Lincoln encourages freeway-like speeds. Crossing here is always a gamble with one's life and health at stake.

4
A) Crossing into Nowhere. The destruction of Deep Deuce's urban fabric ensures that Durland Ave is a dead zone with almost no activity. Building frontages would be very helpful here.
B) Sidewalk connect directly to Durland Ave, forcing pedestrians _into the street itself._ The pedestrian then must navigate any vehicles on Durland and then the parking lot in front of the community center before successfully arriving at a sidewalk.
C) Sidewalk condition is extremely poor. I could not imagine asking a person in a wheelchair to navigate this sidewalk.

----------


## boitoirich

^ Re-reading that, I apologize for the harried and hurried grammar. I had to be out the door right away. Anyway, those points still stand.

----------


## traxx

> ^ Re-reading that, I apologize for the harried and hurried grammar. I had to be out the door right away. Anyway, those points still stand.


A larger picture would be cool. Some of us don't see as well as we used to.

----------


## catch22

> A larger picture would be cool. Some of us don't see as well as we used to.


So the stories my father told me about how to lose my eyesight are true?

----------


## boitoirich

Does anyone know how to post large images rather than thumbnails?

----------


## hoya

> Does anyone know how to post large images rather than thumbnails?


I think you use the [img] brackets thing instead of clicking the picture button.  I think.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Does anyone know how to post large images rather than thumbnails?


Type this exact thing: [IMG][\IMG]   then copy and paste the image url or link deal in the middle of the two brackets. Image get big

----------


## boitoirich

> Type this exact thing: [IMG][\IMG]   then copy and paste the image url or link deal in the middle of the two brackets. Image get big


Thanks for the assist

It would appear that Google Drive is not a host that plays nice with OKCTalk

----------


## Jared

Speaking of capping 235...

Business of Health: Grand gesture proposed for creating innovation district in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> Speaking of capping 235...
> 
> Business of Health: Grand gesture proposed for creating innovation district in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com


Well that's interesting...

----------


## David

More than just interesting, it's downright fascinating. 




> This project would require a significant infusion of capital. Private and public sector dollars would both be required. Weve seen significant successes with MAPS I and II, and were in the midst of using MAPS III funds to improve quality of life throughout our city. Wouldnt this project be a natural fit for MAPS IV?
> 
> Prescott, a physician and medical researcher, is president of the Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation. Email him at omrf-president@omrf.org.


Works for me. I like the sound of this as a bit of a centerpiece project for MAPS IV.

----------


## HOT ROD

T.O.M. - Transit Oriented MAPS could be the theme for Maps IV, along with the emphasis on METROpolitan.  :Smile:

----------


## Spartan

> More than just interesting, it's downright fascinating. 
> 
> 
> 
> Works for me. I like the sound of this as a bit of a centerpiece project for MAPS IV.


There will not be a MAPS IV. Sorry all.

----------


## Rover

I think it is WAY too early to declare the Maps program dead.  After all projects are completed, or substantially completed, then the public sentiment will be assessed.  The general public will judge much differently than this board membership does.  I think it also depends on who our Mayor and other civic leaders are at the time and whether people judge them to be wise and trustworthy.

----------


## Spartan

I agree. But it is also WAY too early to declare the campaign for MAPS 4, given the current situation we are in.

----------


## David

That situation being? I'm having trouble coming up with something going on right now that would no irrecoverably sink a MAPS 4 vote.

----------


## Rover

I think that the general public does not have a level of discomfort with anything going on to any degree that this board exhibits.  Most look at maps and take a more generalized look at the body of work and think it has by and large been highly successful.   I think they don't expect everything to be without issues, but in the end judge whether everything was worth it. Based on that, it is much easier to imagine another MAPS passing than it failing or not be put forward for a vote.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> There will not be a MAPS IV. Sorry all.


Now you are just being a troll, :Hammer:

----------


## Spartan

That's funny that saying one bad thing about MAPS IV constitutes being a troll. I agree with Rover that OKC Talk is a fascinating vacuum where endless sunshine pumping collides with eternal pessimism, and similarly there is an extent to which the public thinks in binary - and if it aint bad, then it good. 

MAPS I had a very contentious finish, and it's truly amazing that Humphreys won the city over again amidst all of the controversy, by pitching a universally desirable future that we could make possible. Two very interesting things are happening though in OKC, and one is that its real leadership has not and never will change the way it thinks (which does erode public will after a loooong time), and secondly that the citizens are getting complacent. If $50/barrel oil is here to stay, that will change as people lose jobs and equity.

Enter MAPS IV - it all comes down to what and why. If what your pitching is transit, why? You just screwed transit in the last MAPS because it was apparently not as important as the convention sector. Then it all comes down to whether the RAIL streetcar was delivered exactly as promised.  That is very, very, very important to the future of the MAPS brand. 

So however sure you are of the transit component's success, that's where you should place your bets on MAPS IV if it is indeed transit like we mostly expect. I also suspect the powers that be can find a way to keep that funding from going toward transit. I'm not saying MAPS IV won't happen, but just that it's too soon to tell, and I find the optimism that's already gearing up for MAPS IV to be extremely presumptive.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> That's funny that saying one bad thing about MAPS IV constitutes being a troll.


Troll - One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument 

I would call saying this:



> There will not be a MAPS IV. Sorry all.


is the definition of being a troll, especially since you completely contradicted yourself i you very next post. :Fighting25: 




> I'm not saying MAPS IV won't happen, but just that it's too soon to tell, and I find the optimism that's already gearing up for MAPS IV to be extremely presumptive.

----------


## Spartan

I guess you gotta start racking up those message board contributions somehow. 

I on the otherhand just say what needs to be said and let the chips fall where they may. It's just a message board.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I guess you gotta start racking up those message board contributions somehow.


Ironic coming from someone with over 11,000 posts




> I on the otherhand just say what needs to be said and let the chips fall where they may.


So what needed to be said, that MAPS IV wasn't going to happen or that you're not saying that it's not going to happen? Because you said both.

It just seems that sometimes some people feel like they can say outrageous things in an intelligent forum and not be held accountable.  If you don't like be called a troll, don't say trollish things.

----------


## Spartan

> Ironic coming from someone with over 11,000 posts
> 
> 
> 
> So what needed to be said, that MAPS IV wasn't going to happen or that you're not saying that it's not going to happen? Because you said both.
> 
> It just seems that sometimes some people feel like they can say outrageous things in an intelligent forum and not be held accountable.  If you don't like be called a troll, don't say trollish things.


So then you agree or disagree on counting on a future MAPS IV?

----------


## LandArchPoke

> Well that's interesting...


Cuatrode, the drawing you posted towards the beginning of this thread is great. Just wanted to give you props.

___

Capping freeways tends to be the less continuous way of dealing with urban freeways. I actually did my capstone project at OSU over completely removing this section of freeway from I-40 to I-44. Reconnecting the street-grid that was there before the freeway as a way to reverse what the freeway did to destroy the area. I actually walked around downtown OKC with a large map on poster board with my project partner. We asked people to put a dot on areas they thought were good areas/desirable and another color dot for areas they thought needed work/less desirable. Pretty much all the good dots went downtown/bricktown/midtown and the bad dots went south of the river and around the medical center.

I don't know if anywhere there's actually information on how many people that use this section of freeway is coming to and from downtown versus regional travelers who are using the corridor as the quickest way through the city? My hunch is most of the traffic is through traffic. Completely removing this section and reconstructing it into a complete streets type corridor would encourage only use by local traffic. Regional traffic would be shifted away to I-35 or Hefner Parkway, which isn't a bad thing because it doesn't provide any economic benefit for people to simply drive past downtown.

I had proposed light rail to be built from Santa Fe station along this reconstructed corridor to downtown Edmond with a spur up NW Expressway as well. You could then go south to connect Moore and Norman. East to Midwest City - Tinker and West to the Airport. The light rail would pick up any needed commuting capacity that was lost that a boulevard couldn't accommodate. 

If you just removed this from the railroad tracks by I-40 to NW 13th, it would add 88 acres of developable land that is currently owned by ODOT. Keep in mind, ODOT pays no taxes on any of this currently.

One of the jury members was an streets engineer for OKC, and he hated the idea.

----------


## ljbab728

> I don't know if anywhere there's actually information on how many people that use this section of freeway is coming to and from downtown versus regional travelers who are using the corridor as the quickest way through the city? My hunch is most of the traffic is through traffic.


Interesting because I would think the exact opposite.  It's rarely a route that I would use for through traffic given the other choices available.

----------


## LandArchPoke

> Interesting because I would think the exact opposite.  It's rarely a route that I would use for through traffic given the other choices available.


Likely it would be someone who lives in Edmond that needs to go to Moore/Norman or Dallas and it's probably quickest to take this to hook into I-35 south. The best way to gauge how many use this to go downtown versus to go past downtown to another location would be to study the on/off ramp traffic counts and compare it to the traffic count before and after the on/off ramp on the highway. I've never seen good data from ODOT with these though for OKC or Tulsa.

----------


## ljbab728

> Likely it would be someone who lives in Edmond that needs to go to Moore/Norman or Dallas and it's probably quickest to take this to hook into I-35 south. The best way to gauge how many use this to go downtown versus to go past downtown to another location would be to study the on/off ramp traffic counts and compare it to the traffic count before and after the on/off ramp on the highway. I've never seen good data from ODOT with these though for OKC or Tulsa.


That's probably true but I seriously doubt that the majority of traffic there is people traveling between Edmond, Moore, Norman, and Dallas.

----------


## boitoirich

> Interesting because I would think the exact opposite.  It's rarely a route that I would use for through traffic given the other choices available.


During rush hour, no, but the other 20 hours of the day 235 is absolutely a bypass

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Capping freeways tends to be the less continuous way of dealing with urban freeways. I actually did my capstone project at OSU over completely removing this section of freeway from I-40 to I-44. Reconnecting the street-grid that was there before the freeway as a way to reverse what the freeway did to destroy the area. I actually walked around downtown OKC with a large map on poster board with my project partner. We asked people to put a dot on areas they thought were good areas/desirable and another color dot for areas they thought needed work/less desirable. Pretty much all the good dots went downtown/bricktown/midtown and the bad dots went south of the river and around the medical center.


Thank god you aren't in charge. Now I'll wait for the predictable response!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> During rush hour, no, but the other 20 hours of the day 235 is absolutely a bypass


So I guess every time I'm on the highway and I see people exiting the freeway to go into downtown or the HSC, that would constitute bypassing it?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Likely it would be someone who lives in Edmond that needs to go to Moore/Norman or Dallas and it's probably quickest to take this to hook into I-35 south. The best way to gauge how many use this to go downtown versus to go past downtown to another location would be to study the on/off ramp traffic counts and compare it to the traffic count before and after the on/off ramp on the highway. I've never seen good data from ODOT with these though for OKC or Tulsa.


Wrong. Nearly every single person I know if going to Norman, Moore, or Dallas will take I-35 to 40 back to I-35, it is usually faster and yes I've actually timed it. Almost every time I'm on that highway or hear someone going to downtown from Edmond, they use that highway to do it.

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## LandArchPoke

> Thank god you aren't in charge. Now I'll wait for the predictable response!


Why's that? Because I would prefer a city built to accommodate all modes of transportation instead of just one? Because I don't like freeways that may not be necessary for a city to prosper (Vancouver, BC)? Because I don't like infrastructure that degrades property values near it, destroy's existing structures that were providing the city with revenues (property taxes), segregates communities, and encourages developers to build skybridges from massive parking garages or demolishes historic structures for parking lots? Because you could open up over 80 acres back to develop into mixed-use between the medical center and downtown/deep deuce areas?

Some people would say yes, because having the highway turn into a boulevard would add 5 - 10 minutes to their commute and that just not ok. They are the type of people who would rather be on the expressway in their car in Dallas than on a street car or BART in San Francisco. Other cities have successfully removed urban freeways - San Francisco, Milwaukee, Portland - all with no added congestion and increased development and property values because of it.

I would personally rather see Tulsa and Oklahoma City both have more connected cores to surrounding neighborhoods, and have the freeways stop at the city limits like Vancouver of Washington DC. People are more adaptable than you think.




> Wrong. Nearly every single person I know if going to Norman, Moore, or Dallas will take I-35 to 40 back to I-35, it is usually faster and yes I've actually timed it. Almost every time I'm on that highway or hear someone going to downtown from Edmond, they use that highway to do it.


So you're telling me that every single person you know that if they were in downtown Edmond, Chesapeake, or Classen Curve all take I-35 instead of 235? If that was true, the freeway would be a ghost town. The traffic counts around medical center are over 100,000 trips. That's a lot of people taking that freeway. I'm sorry there's not 50,000 people taking 235 and exiting to downtown - medical center - capitol complex or the traffic to get on and off the highways there would be hellish. 




> So I guess every time I'm on the highway and I see people exiting the freeway to go into downtown or the HSC, that would constitute bypassing it?


How many of those people are exiting versus driving through? I'm going to be the ratio favors people driving through/bypassing by at least 5:1 - 10:1


And Panda, if you prefer the highways and cars there isn't anything wrong with that. It's your right and preference. I just happen to enjoy being able to hop on a train and walking if I had the option.

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## Bellaboo

I-235 is hellish at times. Yesterday, there was a 5 car pile up that had Northbound reduced to 1 lane. I went 6 miles out of my way to get to the Capitol complex. Any little instance creates gridlock during both morning and evening rush.

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## ljbab728

> During rush hour, no, but the other 20 hours of the day 235 is absolutely a bypass


True, but that doesn't change my point at all.

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## boitoirich

> True, but that doesn't change my point at all.


I think we're actually agreeing with one another somewhat, but I could be confused. If we're talking about total volume handled, you may have a point -- I don't know about overall traffic volume and destination, and I wasn't trying to make any point about that. But if we're talking the majority of day, then Centennial is used as a route through the city. Either way, CuatrodeMayo and LandArchPoke's ideas both lend themselves well to this stretch of highway.

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## ljbab728

> I think we're actually agreeing with one another somewhat, but I could be confused. If we're talking about total volume handled, you may have a point -- I don't know about overall traffic volume and destination, and I wasn't trying to make any point about that. But if we're talking the majority of day, then Centennial is used as a route through the city. Either way, CuatrodeMayo and LandArchPoke's ideas both lend themselves well to this stretch of highway.


I was talking about volume.  I was responding to this post.




> don't know if anywhere there's actually information on how many people that use this section of freeway is coming to and from downtown versus regional travelers who are using the corridor as the quickest way through the city? My hunch is most of the traffic is through traffic.

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## David

I can't quite imagine how too much non-metro through traffic would even end up on the corridor. North to south? When I was driving that in college the natural route was down 35 to 40 to 35. Vice versa I could see non-map people going straight at the 35/235/40 junction, but I would have said the nation as a whole is pretty well trained on three digits = loop or spur, two digits = main interstate. Same example, I can remember going up 235 only once or twice in my multiple years of driving up through the city. West or east, east to west, 235 shouldn't even be on the table unless someone gets really confused by the bright lights of Bricktown. Even coming in on 44 from either direction, not routes I ever drive much, I can't quite see someone choosing to take 235 nearly regardless of their route.

Through traffic that starts or ends in the metro is another story of course, I take 235 all the time going between Edmond and Norman. I used to take 35 back when their was some construction on the extension at the turnpike, but that cleared up years ago.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Why's that? Because I would prefer a city built to accommodate all modes of transportation instead of just one? Because I don't like freeways that may not be necessary for a city to prosper (Vancouver, BC)? Because I don't like infrastructure that degrades property values near it, destroy's existing structures that were providing the city with revenues (property taxes), segregates communities, and encourages developers to build skybridges from massive parking garages or demolishes historic structures for parking lots? Because you could open up over 80 acres back to develop into mixed-use between the medical center and downtown/deep deuce areas?


Sorry if I came as a douche. I reread that and it came out wrong. I still stand by my liking of highways however.

Dallas is growing extremely fast, probably faster than most if not all Canadian cities and it has a massive highway network.





> Some people would say yes, because having the highway turn into a boulevard would add 5 - 10 minutes to their commute and that just not ok. They are the type of people who would rather be on the expressway in their car in Dallas than on a street car or BART in San Francisco. Other cities have successfully removed urban freeways - San Francisco, Milwaukee, Portland - all with no added congestion and increased development and property values because of it.
> 
> I would personally rather see Tulsa and Oklahoma City both have more connected cores to surrounding neighborhoods, and have the freeways stop at the city limits like Vancouver of Washington DC. People are more adaptable than you think.


People are adaptable because they aren't given a choice. If you remove a freeway, it's not like a person will say, 'eh, I might adapt to it,' no, they have to because the freeway is no longer there. So they will use another freeway most likely and that will cause congestion in other areas. You also have to take in to account the number of people that live or are driving close by on the highway that once existed and is now a boulevard that no longer has the option to go onto the highway because it isn't there. So that congestion is not accounted for.






> So you're telling me that every single person you know that if they were in downtown Edmond, Chesapeake, or Classen Curve all take I-35 instead of 235? If that was true, the freeway would be a ghost town. The traffic counts around medical center are over 100,000 trips. That's a lot of people taking that freeway. I'm sorry there's not 50,000 people taking 235 and exiting to downtown - medical center - capitol complex or the traffic to get on and off the highways there would be hellish.


I'm saying most people I know that go into downtown take 235 into downtown. I know a lot more people who go into downtown than pass by on that highway. I always see people exiting and entering near downtown as well on that highway.




> How many of those people are exiting versus driving through? I'm going to be the ratio favors people driving through/bypassing by at least 5:1 - 10:1


I don't know.





> And Panda, if you prefer the highways and cars there isn't anything wrong with that. It's your right and preference. I just happen to enjoy being able to hop on a train and walking if I had the option.


I think you should have the option. Personally, if it were me, I would love seeing ODOT investing billions into making all the highway below grade around the Tulsa downtown and putting parks over them as well as completely tearing down 235, rebuilding the whole thing below grade, and capping it as well as capping the new crosstown.

I would also like to see a new rail division formed and the OKC and Tulsa metros get light and commuter rail.

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## Spartan

You can want to see it all, but if you don't stand up for rail it will never happen, ever. Nobody needs to "stand up" for freeway in order for ODOT to deliver more of those projects.

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## Laramie

MAPS *TRANSIT*ION IV:

MAPS IV will survive to continue the momentum.  What's there to lose if you vote for; also what's there to gain if you vote against?   It will be advertised that there will be no increase in the sales tax; previous MAPS' projects have touched everyone in some way or another.

MAPS IV must include something for everyone (not limited to); some examples: possible _expansion-renovations_ to the previous MAPS projects (transit, ballpark, canal, riverfront, dams, fairgrounds, downtown arena etc.,) in which some will be almost 20 years old.

Evaluate & revisit:

Transit:  Expand the street car system 50-60 miles to include Zoo, Remington Park, MWC-Del City, Edmond, Norman--all with stations) .
_Connect; St. Anthony Hospital complex, Midtown, Automobile Alley with OU Health Science & Research Centers (beautification, development, walkability, transit)._

 _The Brick_ to be configured as a multiuse facility for American football & soccer (riser seating for 20,000); baseball (13,000-15,000 permanent). Expand the Bricktown canal 2 miles (total 3 mile canal). Riverfront beautification project; unfinished projects in MAPS III. Dams,  inspect & repair if necessary. Fairgrounds:  new _iconic space tower_ (500 ft., minimum height). Downtown arena:  necessary upgrades.  Street Car Transit should route to all of the above areas.
This will be another win for OKC.

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## ljbab728

From the Journal Record.

Space to innovate: Study will determine what’s needed between downtown and HSC
By Dale Denwalt
The Journal Record

OKLAHOMA CITY – An 18-month study of innovation around the city’s medical science plaza will give officials the tools they need to encourage development in the area, officials said.

The Brookings Institution and the Project for Public Spaces will send researchers to interview workers, residents and others inside the district that’s roughly bounded on the east by the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center and to the west by Automobile Alley.

The efforts of the two nonprofits stem from work they have done elsewhere.

“They try to take areas between places and create vibrant spaces to collide people,” said Roy Williams, president and CEO of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber.

There is a natural barrier, though – Interstate 235.

“What if we capped it?” Williams said, referencing ideas that could come out of the research. “What if we put a roof on 235 from 10th Street to Sixth Street? Then there’s no barrier, and you walk across the freeway instead of driving around it.”

That’s just one idea, though. Williams said the lack of housing, restaurants and commercial businesses near the medical centers could reveal a significant need among the people who work there. That’s when the chamber and others would step in, reaching out to people such as housing developers to fill those needs.

Downtown OKC Inc. CEO and President Jane Jenkins said there is a desire to make a strong physical connection with the medical centers and downtown. The researchers’ recommendations will be welcome, she said, because the work in Automobile Alley is never done.

“Downtown’s urban districts, urban areas are constantly evolving, particularly in a dynamic environment like we have here in Oklahoma City,” she said. “My expectations are that whatever comes out of this report that’s apropos to Automobile Alley will be in sync with other efforts that are currently underway.”

The Brookings Institution announced the venture last week, but released a more in-depth explanation of the study on Wednesday. Over the next year-and-a-half, teams of researchers will visit Oklahoma City to analyze demographics and interview focus groups, asking questions as specific as where park benches should go. Brookings will also study Philadelphia.

The research is sponsored by a grant from philanthropists Robert and Anne Bass. The Bass Initiative for Innovation and Placemaking aims to use the lessons learned to help build other cities across the world.
Oklahoma’s capital was picked because the city already had the kind of attitude toward innovation that the organization was looking for, Brookings Institution spokeswoman Grace Palmer said.

“Brookings had seen some nascent innovation district activity already in our past research,” Palmer said. “We’re always looking for variety, but also ones that might be emblematic in some ways. There was enough interest in what was happening in Oklahoma City that we thought it would be interesting to seek it out more.”

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## AP

This is encouraging. But capping 235 won't be cheap.

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## baralheia

I'm not even sure that capping 235 would be the best idea, either. There definitely needs to be a better way for pedestrians to cross the interstate, however... perhaps a pedestrian bridge or two?

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## Urban Pioneer

Just take whatever you would spend on capping the interstate and spend it on expanding the streetcar system instead. Connectivity problem solved.

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## bchris02

Capping the freeway and creating something like Klyde Warren Park in Dallas would be cool.  However, given how expensive it would be as well as the fact that the HSC is so far from urban standards at the moment the challenge of "fixing" it within a generation borders on impossible, I think that money would be much better spent on streetcar expansion than capping the highway.

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## dwellsokc

According to he Brookings Institution and the Project for Public Spaces as presented at  the recent Chamber Retreat, Automobile Alley is considered to be part of the Innovation District... Now the issue becomes reducing the effects of the barrier (I-235) _within the district_, not between downtown and the district.  Improving pedestrian connectivity, and creating cool new spaces is critical to the viability of this district.

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## hoya

I think capping I-235 will cost way more than it is worth.  The money you spent on that could do a lot of other things.  Here's what we should do:

1) Create a design review board for the HSC area to ensure urban design standards are followed.
2) Build about 5000 residential spaces in the HSC area.
3) Put in shops, restaurants, and retail that the residents and employees can support.
4) Connect it to downtown with the streetcar and a few pedestrian crossings.

Easy as can be.

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## dwellsokc

"Capping I-235" sounds so harsh.  Think of it as enhancing the existing connection points ("widen" the bridges... create new property for new buildings... increased density... "stitch" the east & west sides together.)  Creating a useful place, where most people don't even think there _is_ a place.

It would be worth the cost.

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## AP

It would not be worth it, imo. Especially for just the small area from 10th-6th that they suggested capping.

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## Urban Pioneer

> It would be worth the cost.


Simply applying good urban principals to the expanse of existing surface parking lots would be a better investment imhop.

Why create density at a premium to try to entice connectivity to an area that is essentially a bunch of mall parking lots? If Health sciences Center were a urban utopia and the only divide in the urban fabric between downtown and it were I-235, these ideas would have merit.

Its not.

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## shawnw

I support capping it, but imagine that displaced Edmond-bound 235 traffic flooding the downtown streets while it was being capped... ouch...

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## adaniel

> This is encouraging. But capping 235 won't be cheap.


For comparison's sake, Klyde Warren Park in Dallas was a $110 million affair, and that was in 2012. I'm not sure I want a freeway cap that bad.

A much more affordable alternative would be to build a highly landscaped pedestrian walkway and bridge, maybe something similar to the Chelsea High Line, perhaps?

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## Bellaboo

I'd say just go with a large pedestrian and bicycle bridge between 8th and 9th with connecting access that is friendly to the bridge.

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## shawnw

So people would have to walk through the metropolitan to get to it? I support a pedestrian bridge as well but am not sure where it would best go.

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## shawnw

Oh maybe that's right where the metropolitan ends?  But then there's GE on the other side?

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## Bellaboo

> Oh maybe that's right where the metropolitan ends?  But then there's GE on the other side?


This one, right where the Metropolitan ends on the North and span the new connection off ramp to 10th just South of GE. There should be enough right away there.

This would save multiple millions from capping  the road and connect pedestrians / bicyclist safely to both sides.

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## shawnw

yeah but then there's nothingness on the other side for quite a ways... but I would like a more hospitable crossing vs 10th or really any other place.

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## Bellaboo

> yeah but then there's nothingness on the other side for quite a ways... but I would like a more hospitable crossing vs 10th or really any other place.


I'm just looking at where the volume of people are located on each side of 235, and this connection puts it in the center.

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## gopokes88

The cap is pretty cool in Dallas, but expanding the street car is probably a better route.

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## Plutonic Panda

If they really wanted to connect downtown with HSC they should either remove the freeway or bury it. It seems to me capping freeways just covers up the problem. If you have to spend that much money to do that just remove it.

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## shawnw

capping=bury, no?

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## Plutonic Panda

> capping=bury, no?


Well I meant tunneling the entire thing from 44 to 40. But that would be extremely expensive. It was hard for a city like Boston to do and I think it was over 20 billion.

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## Laramie

> I support capping it, but imagine that displaced Edmond-bound 235 traffic flooding the downtown streets while it was being capped... ouch...


Agree, that this will be an inconvenience for all; however, that's the price of progress.

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## Urbanized

Cheaper than capping - and perhaps more innovative and walkabiltiy-oriented - would be to revive and do a modern take on the concept of the Pulteney Bridge in Bath, England. Take the existing bridges and widen them, with commercial structures lining each side. That would give the impression of continuous walkable urban sidewalk from Automobile Alley/Deep Deuce to the other side of the highway. If OUHSC knits itself into a more walkable urban area you then have uninterrupted walkable density between both places. You'd never even know the highway was there.

The bridges would have to be upgraded for streetcar, anyway. Do it at the same time.

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## shawnw

The widened bridges with amenities would be a nice alternative.

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## HangryHippo

I love Bath.  It's an incredible place.

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## Urban Pioneer

Streetcar can be expanded via the 4th street underpass without the need to retrofit bridges. It also enables the possible continued expansion and revitalization of the JFK neighborhood. There is no need to build more bridges.

It seems to me that business community is trying to stimulate another big ticket MAPS item that people can only dream about.

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## Urbanized

Ponte Vecchio in Florence is a similar bridge treatment, though pedestrian-only rather than vehicular. I too think creation of new bridges - especially those that separate pedestrian and vehicular traffic completely - is unneeded. But retrofitting existing bridges is a reasonable approach and probably not pie-in-the-sky. It's only adding better urbanism to already-existing structure.

And UP, are you saying a single point of access for the streetcar is optimal? Wouldn't it be best to enter OUHSC on one street alignment and exit on another? More territory covered that way...

Ponte Vecchio:

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## Just the facts

Will the taxes generated by urbanizing the cap be enough to cover the cost of maintaing it?  I think the only fiscally responsible solution is to remove I-235 at the end of its life-span and restore the grid with density requirements that can produce enough tax income to maintain it.

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## boitoirich

The Klyde Warren Park cap itself cost $44.5 million for 5.2 acres; the cost per square foot ended up around $196. 
The area proposed for the I-235 cap would is approximately 9.2 acres and cost $78 million ($81 million after accounting for inflation). 

Most of the money raised for park design and construction came from various private and some public sources in Dallas. If serious about this proposal, we would need strong private commitment to doing the same.

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## dwellsokc

> Streetcar can be expanded via the 4th street underpass without the need to retrofit bridges. It also enables the possible continued expansion and revitalization of the JFK neighborhood. There is no need to build more bridges...


I agree that 4th Street would be the logical crossing, but the streetcar can be expanded to cover the planet and it will still only be a novelty item.  Who is going to wait 10 minutes for a ride when it takes 5 minutes to walk?  

Anyone who has crossed I-235 on foot or bike can tell you that 4th Street, Harrison/8th Street, 10th Street, and 13th Street are dangerous & ugly traverses. The sources of people and destinations for people within the Innovation District are increasing... pedestrian pathway additions and improvements are needed.

Everyone screamed about the lack of pedestrian friendliness of the original Boulevard design... I-235 was designed with the same disregard for pedestrians; it severs a burgeoning and vital district.  Improvements are needed.

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## catch22

Streetcar is most certainly *not* a novelty item. It is packed day in and day out on Portland, and it is not a tourist ride. It is a very pure form of meaningful transit.

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## dwellsokc

> Streetcar is most certainly *not* a novelty item. It is packed day in and day out on Portland, and it is not a tourist ride. It is a very pure form of meaningful transit.


How pure and meaningful is it when 150 people from a 150-acre area want to go to & from lunch on 9th Street at the same time? We're not talking about transiting from St. Anthony Hospital to a Bricktown apartment... we're talking about OU Med, GE, & OURP, etc.

The OKC streetcar is a novelty item.

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## gopokes88

Streetcar will start out as a novelty but will be essential in 10 years. Notice when they put in the Kilpatrick the boom around memorial? Same thing will happen around the street car routes. Businesses love to be near access. Roads plus street car access? It's going to boom and then some. were already seeing it with some of the projects announced for AA. It'll hit critical mass and everyone will be clamoring to expand it all the way up classen to whole foods. Then more boom.

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## bchris02

> The OKC streetcar is a novelty item.


In the beginning yes, but development will occur around it and it will become a legitimate mode of transportation for those living in the core.

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## catch22

The novelty "adventure" that it will have for the first month or two will actually help secure the streetcar's success by introducing people to a new form of transit. 

It's hard to convince some people just from lines on a map. And that is understandable. But hopefully when they give it a try during its novelty period, they will become sold on just how effective it is.

We just opened the Orange Line on the Max up here last month. Thousands of people showed up to be the first riders, and tons of businesses moved in around the line with grand openings on the opening date of the new rail line. While streetcar and light rail are not the same, they will have the same impact for the immediate area it serves. 

It will be a smash success.

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## HOT ROD

we surely do not need another district, drop the innovation moniker please!!!! It's fine the way it is with true defined areas such as AAlley (which is rather historic) and the Oklahoma Health Center (which is very specific and encompassing of the area). What is an Innovation District and why does OKC need said taking away the previously defined names??? This stuff is just getting out of hand IMO and is really making OKC look rather childish and reaching for straws when we don't need to be.

come up with a name for the Core 2 Shore if they want to name something, otherwise - we can surely say that Innovation exists in the Oklahoma Health Center but we don't need to name it Innovation District to show that's what happens there. ... Good grief!

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## ljbab728

> we surely do not need another district, drop the innovation moniker please!!!! It's fine the way it is with true defined areas such as AAlley (which is rather historic) and the Oklahoma Health Center (which is very specific and encompassing of the area). What is an Innovation District and why does OKC need said taking away the previously defined names??? This stuff is just getting out of hand IMO and is really making OKC look rather childish and reaching for straws when we don't need to be.
> 
> come up with a name for the Core 2 Shore if they want to name something, otherwise - we can surely say that Innovation exists in the Oklahoma Health Center but we don't need to name it Innovation District to show that's what happens there. ... Good grief!


I have no problem with it.  What they call it matters not a wit. It's what they accomplish that matters.

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## bchris02

> we surely do not need another district, drop the innovation moniker please!!!! It's fine the way it is with true defined areas such as AAlley (which is rather historic) and the Oklahoma Health Center (which is very specific and encompassing of the area). What is an Innovation District and why does OKC need said taking away the previously defined names??? This stuff is just getting out of hand IMO and is really making OKC look rather childish and reaching for straws when we don't need to be.


I agree.  I think the city should support its different neighborhoods and their unique identity, but not everything has to be a "district."  The Wheeler District is probably the worst offender in this.

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## Urbanized

^^^^^^
And yet if it lives up to the master plan and renderings it will be the most district of all districts that have ever districted in OKC.

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## adaniel

> ^^^^^^
> And yet if it lives up to the master plan and renderings it will be the most district of all districts that have ever districted in OKC.


Bro, do you even district?

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## Spartan

> How pure and meaningful is it when 150 people from a 150-acre area want to go to & from lunch on 9th Street at the same time? We're not talking about transiting from St. Anthony Hospital to a Bricktown apartment... we're talking about OU Med, GE, & OURP, etc.
> 
> The OKC streetcar is a novelty item.


What are you talking about?? That's exactly what this project has always aspired to do.

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## dwellsokc

> What are you talking about?? That's exactly what this project has always aspired to do.


Aspirations vs. reality...  In any 150 acre area served by the streetcar, how many stops will there be, and what will the wait time be between cars?  The 150 lunch-goers spread across a 150-acre chunk of the Innovation District can likely WALK directly to their lunch destination on 9th Street in less time than it takes to wait for a car.  And how many cars would it take to serve the 150 people if they did choose to walk to a stop and wait?  I bet you'd spend half your lunch hour walking to the stop, and _waiting_ for a car.  Not to mention there are NO STOPS planned on the East side of I-235!

The streetcar might make sense to those who live near the line, or if have time to eat lunch in Bricktown, or Midtown.  I've been talking about improving the walkability within the District... reducing the effects of the I-235 barrier is necessary.  The streetcar won't address that issue.

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## hoya

> Aspirations vs. reality...  In any 150 acre area served by the streetcar, how many stops will there be, and what will the wait time be between cars?  The 150 lunch-goers spread across a 150-acre chunk of the Innovation District can likely WALK directly to their lunch destination on 9th Street in less time than it takes to wait for a car.  And how many cars would it take to serve the 150 people if they did choose to walk to a stop and wait?  I bet you'd spend half your lunch hour walking to the stop, and _waiting_ for a car.  Not to mention there are NO STOPS planned on the East side of I-235!
> 
> The streetcar might make sense to those who live near the line, or if have time to eat lunch in Bricktown, or Midtown.  I've been talking about improving the walkability within the District... reducing the effects of the I-235 barrier is necessary.  The streetcar won't address that issue.


I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

The streetcar as it is currently planned obviously won't solve the walkability problems of the OUHSC area.  For one, it doesn't go to the OUHSC area.  This isn't a problem with it, though.  It just doesn't go over there.  Talking about a potential future streetcar expansion is different.  I think everyone agrees that the OUHSC area needs walkability improvements to really thrive.  No one is disagreeing with that.  The streetcar can aid that, but it won't solve it all by itself.

None of this means that the streetcar is just a carnival ride, however.

A streetcar stop should be within a 5 minute walk of any area served by the streetcar.  It should run on a set schedule.  If you know which stop you're going to use, you should know when that streetcar will be along.  Sure, if you're new to using it, you might time your arrival wrong.  You might wait 20 minutes for a car.  But once you know the schedule, you'll time your lunch break to coincide with the streetcar.  So if there's a stop 4 minutes from the front door of your building, and the car gets there at 11:57, then you'll want to be out the door by 11:53.  Once you have the timing down, it won't be a problem.

Will the streetcar be crowded?  Probably at times.  Will it take all 150 people to lunch at the same time?  Probably not.  I'm not sure how many a car holds.  But not being a magical cure all doesn't make it a novelty item.

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## Urban Pioneer

First of all, it is absolutely stupid idea to build a $100+ million streetcar system through Health Sciences Center so that people can go to lunch. Such a system should only be built when streetcar can be used to connect thousands of new downtown housing units to thousands of jobs. An even better and broader goal is to eventually extend that system through the NE side, through 23rd street, and up to the "Adventure District".

However, an even stupider idea is spending hundreds of millions to cap a major interstate highway. Let's beautify this city where it counts, reinvest in major corridors that cost less first, and build critical mass where it is less expensive.

If I had my druthers, the first streetcar expansion would be from Dewey/11th to Classen, 16th street through the Plaza, and up Blackwelder to OCU. I know that it would work there and have lasting and meaningful impact.

If we are talking about hundreds of millions, which we are, spend the money where it will have the most impact and let Health Sciences keep their cars and massive parking lots. Or spend a few million on good sidewalks and crosswalks to the existing bridges if connectivity on foot bothers you that much.

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## baralheia

There are tons of sidewalks all across the OUHSC campus - and many opportunities here to shift the focus from cars to public transit like a streetcar, freeing up room for more buildings and more density. You must remember that, yes, there are a ton of people who work over here, but there are also a ton of people who come here for the services provided at places like the VA, or Children's Hospital, or even the Oklahoma Department of Health and Vital Records offices. I work over here and I see people walking across campus most of the day, and I know that a streetcar extension would work quite well! After hours ridership could be enhanced by ensuring that the Embassy Suites at 8th and Phillips, as well as McGuire Plaza and Jeltz Senior Center at 12th and Lottie, had stops somewhere nearby.

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## Urban Pioneer

There is no doubt, Health Sciences is transitioning. But it is a slow transition. I have spent thousands of hours studying the NE side and serving on the Alternatives Analysis Committee. The problem is, Health Sciences streetcar really doesn't gain the numbers to justify the investment until a Regional Transit Authority is formed and the commuting mode shifts from automobile to commuter rail. When that happens, Health Sciences streetcar becomes essential to providing connectivity through the district.

Now arguably, we could say we want to do this now and it would take eight - ten years or more to build it. So, it is probably not a bad discussion to have in terms of a long-term investment.

So in that sense, the arguments dwells is making are irrelevant as the context in modes changes in the next ten years. Streetcar is no longer a "novelty" once you introduce Regional Rail. And we are doing so. That is happening.

Also, this particular Health Sciences streetcar line meets all of the criteria for Federal Funding. I just want us to think before the business community rushes to shift MAPS type agendas to focus hundreds of millions in an area that is just now finding its footing while there are so many areas in which arguably the money could have greater quality of life impact. This needs to be very carefully thought through in a holistic context. The 2016 and 2017 MAPS 4 and GO Bond essentially sets the developmental investment focus of the city for the next 15 - 20 years. Lets invest wisely.

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## GaryOKC6

I know a lot of people who live downtown / midtown who work at OUHS who would use it to get to work.  I also know several people who are going to be moving to the area once the new communities come on line who would use the street car to get to work and around the area.  There are also a lot of people moving to OKC that come from communities where  this type of transit is common.  I believe the street car will be successful and necessary.

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## hoya

Again, I think putting about 5000 people living in the HSC area would change that place dramatically.  There are a ton of massive parking lots, and there's ample room to fit that many people in.  Some structured parking for commuters, plus a bunch of housing, changes it so that a streetcar connection makes a lot more sense.

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## baralheia

To be honest, I don't see that happening for a long while on the hospital/university owned land - the campus itself - but the immediate surrounding neighborhoods are beginning to show signs of rebound. The Medical Community neighborhood to the north has several homes being rehabilitated, and there are many empty lots and vacant/dilapidated homes in the neighborhoods to the south and east (ESPECIALLY between NE 1st and NE 4th). Rehabbing those houses, combined with filling those empty lots, would bump up the number of residents considerably. There will also be a bump from the old Page Woodson School, once those housing units come on-line.

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## Urban Pioneer

OU needs to invest and have its' own Institute for Quality Communities create a redevelopment plan. OU itself has enough clout and capital on its own to redevelop the district into a denser, mixed-use environment. The city shouldn't be responsible for trying to create density solely with it's own funds.

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## shawnw

^^^

yes plz

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## Urbanized

Interesting opinion piece by Scott Meacham detailing OUHSC's selection as one of two communities nationwide to receive The Anne T. And Robert M. Bass Initiative on Innovation and Placemaking, a collaboration between the Brookings Institute and The Project for Public Spaces.

OKC?s innovation district could demonstrate power of place | NewsOK.com

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## traxx

> Interesting opinion piece by Scott Meacham detailing OUHSC's selection as one of two communities nationwide to receive The Anne T. And Robert M. Bass Initiative on Innovation and Placemaking, a collaboration between the Brookings Institute and The Project for Public Spaces.
> 
> OKC?s innovation district could demonstrate power of place | NewsOK.com


When I click the link, it appears to be behind a paywall. Can you give us a quick synopsis of it or is there another media source other than newsok that's reporting on this?

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## Spartan

> Aspirations vs. reality...  In any 150 acre area served by the streetcar, how many stops will there be, and what will the wait time be between cars?  The 150 lunch-goers spread across a 150-acre chunk of the Innovation District can likely WALK directly to their lunch destination on 9th Street in less time than it takes to wait for a car.  And how many cars would it take to serve the 150 people if they did choose to walk to a stop and wait?  I bet you'd spend half your lunch hour walking to the stop, and _waiting_ for a car.  Not to mention there are NO STOPS planned on the East side of I-235!
> 
> The streetcar might make sense to those who live near the line, or if have time to eat lunch in Bricktown, or Midtown.  I've been talking about improving the walkability within the District... reducing the effects of the I-235 barrier is necessary.  The streetcar won't address that issue.


I think you may want to read up more on the project. It's going to provide a lot of the benefits and impact I think you're looking for.

There are no stops east of 235 yet because it doesn't go there yet. I'd like to see the state pitch in with at least matching funds before that happens, otherwise I'd love to see the streetcar connect into more of OKC's neighborhoods. 

The "Midtown to Bricktown" route connects almost all of the new apartment developments (in which there are 7,500 downtown residents), serves Thunder game crowds, slices straight through the office core in which 50-60,00 people work, and yes it also connects people to around 200 restaurants. It does *so much more* than take convention goers to lunch in Bricktown or Midtown, but if that is all downtown is to you, then yes it does that too..

I think that the biggest impact (which will pleasantly surprise us all) is that going to the Festival of the Arts, a Thunder game, a huge concert, whatever replaces H&8th, 4th of July fireworks, Opening Night, etc - will be totally transformed. The streetcar will revolutionize how people interact with the streets of OKC during those busy times. It will make the streetscape a lot more interactive, even if not every is crammed into one of the 100+ seat rolling stock.

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## ljbab728

Steve's update.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/548...rlyAccess=true




> The Brookings Institute's pilot project to use Oklahoma City as a new model for creating innovation districts is being tested out with planners, developers, medical researchers and civic leaders this week.
> 
> Oklahoma City was chosen along with Philadelphia for the 18-month study, which is funded by the Anne T. and Robert M. Bass Initiative for Innovation and Placemaking. For Oklahoma City, the study represents an opportunity to add life to an area east of downtown known as the Oklahoma Health Center.
> 
> Some improvements will require capital investment. Meg Walker, vice president at the Project for Public Spaces, suggested NW 10 be narrowed from four lanes to two to make the area more pedestrian friendly. Similar changes may be necessary throughout the district, and institutions that have built their buildings facing away from streets will be challenged to expand to streets or pursue improvements to make the area more pedestrian friendly.

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## AP

Home | okcid

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## Urbanized

^^^^^^^
Not sure why they feel compelled to include Automobile Alley, which is a well-established existing district already overseen by Downtown OKC, Inc and a part of the existing downtown BID.

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## dwellsokc

> Not sure why they feel compelled to include Automobile Alley, which is a well-established existing district already overseen by Downtown OKC, Inc and a part of the existing downtown BID.


I think it has to do with the "ideal" occupation/use mix and size of successful innovation districts.  (OUHSC is also a well-established district.)  And... including Automobile Alley will definitely make it easier to connect the Innovation District to the CBD.

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## ljbab728

Steve's update along with a video presentation which gives information that has, so far, only been reported on in this much detail by the Oklahoman among local media.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/548...rlyAccess=true




> It's that kind of thinking that has Meg Walker, an architect and planner with the Project for Public Spaces, hopeful Oklahoma City can create a new model for innovation districts across the country. Her organization, along with the Brookings Institute, is in the midst of an 18-month study of Oklahoma City and Philadelphia that is intended to change how research and medical districts are programmed, designed and built.
> 
> “Oklahoma City is our beta test,” Walker explained to Miller and dozens of others as they gathered Wednesday at the Oklahoma School of Science and Math. “You are our Guinea Pigs.”

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## zookeeper

> Steve's update along with a video presentation which gives information that has, so far, only been reported on in this much detail by the Oklahoman among local media.
> 
> http://www.oklahoman.com/article/548...rlyAccess=true


Very nice! 

"Her organization, along with the Brookings Institute, is in the midst of  an 18-month study of Oklahoma City and Philadelphia that is intended to  change how research and medical districts are programmed, designed and  built.

Oklahoma City is our beta test, Walker explained to Miller and dozens  of others as they gathered Wednesday at the Oklahoma School of Science  and Math. You are our Guinea Pigs."
Very impressive!

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## Laramie

OU Children's Hospital, OU College of Medicine & Stephenson Cancer Center are among the new venues that dot the Health Sciences Center area.

St. Anthony's Hospital expansion (west of Kaisers) continues our city's growth in the Health Sciences field.

Once Oklahoma City ties its loose ends together; things will begin to connect.

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