# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Moore >  Nov 4 tax propositions

## rxis

"http://www.cityofmoore.com/two-propositions-be-decided-november-ballot"

"September 17, 2014 - Registered voters in Moore are being asked to decide two separate propositions on the November 4th ballot. The first proposition is for a $15 million general obligation bond for the construction of a four lane bridge on S. 34th Street over Interstate 35.

Property owners in Moore would see an increase in property taxes for this project. A property that is valued at $125,000 would see an increase of $68.44 in the first year then the amount would gradually decrease to $26.83 by year fifteen. 

The bridge would provide an alternate route from each side of Moore between S. 19th St. and Indian Hills Road. City Manager Steve Eddy stated, “The City Council has been presented several traffic studies that suggest a bridge over I-35 on 34th St. would improve traffic flow in the area. The Mayor and Council unanimously decided that this project should be placed on the ballot for our citizens to decide.” 

The second proposition is the renewal of a half cent sales tax that began on April 1, 2011. The proposition would keep the sales tax in place for an additional four years with 80% of the funds being designated for residential street improvements and 20% being used for public safety equipment for Moore Police, Fire, and Emergency Management departments. 

Over the last four years this dedicated sales tax has generated over $13.1 million. This has allowed for $10.5 million worth of residential street improvements in neighborhoods across Moore and $2.6 million for public safety equipment. 

“Properly equipping our public safety personnel is a priority for our city leaders and these funds help us meet the needs of our growing city. Also, we hope our citizens can see the benefits of having improved residential streets throughout Moore.” said Manager Steve Eddy. 

For additional information about the propositions on the November 4th ballot contact Moore City Manager Steve Eddy at 405-793-5200."


I'm voting against the property tax increase and voting for the sales tax renewal. It seems like we are receiving the burden of additional property taxes every single year. I don't want the burden of another bridge when there is already a large bridge on the next road at Indian Hills Rd. I think most of the commuters on the bridge will be Norman and OKC residents.

----------


## s00nr1

Rxis I am right there with you and have voiced my concern over the 34th St overpass proposal on here before. The fact that so many OKC residents who live along 34th west of I35 will be using this while Moore homeowners have to fit the bill does not sit well with me.

----------


## yunome12@yahoo.com

I live on the West side of I-35 and agree.  Homeowners should not have to foot the bill for the overpass.  My property taxes are outrageous.  I don't need them to go up to pay for an overpass that ODOT should be paying for.  VOTE NO!

----------


## bucfan1512

The reason that ODOT is not helping with it is because it is not connected to the Highway.  They can only be involved if the overpass would have access to I-35.  That means that we are going to have to pay for an overpass and if we want it connected to the highway ODOT will gladly foot that bill which is much smaller.  This whole situation is turning into a mess if you ask me.

----------


## yunome12@yahoo.com

Thank you for the info.  With the East side of I-35 expected to grow in the near future, things will only get worse.  Apartments currently going up and additional retail planned for that area.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

HA! Outrageous property taxes in Moore, that's a good one!!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The reason that ODOT is not helping with it is because it is not connected to the Highway.  They can only be involved if the overpass would have access to I-35.  That means that we are going to have to pay for an overpass and if we want it connected to the highway ODOT will gladly foot that bill which is much smaller.  This whole situation is turning into a mess if you ask me.


The only reason ODOT isn't involved is because they identified this particular area as rural and they won't build more than one bridge each mile in rural areas.

----------


## Robert_M

Just to throw my hat into here I live off 34th and I am a Moore resident. I would use the bridge myself at least once a day and sometimes twice depending on work not to count the times I would go shopping / dinning there on the East side of town. It is true that there is Talavera and a few of the other neighborhoods listed as Oklahoma City that would use the bridge however if traffic gets much worse without the bridge our property taxes might stay the same but Sales Tax may go down as those people decide to go to Norman instead of dealing with the traffic.

As for ODOT my interpretation of what Mr. Eddy has said the city is still trying to convince ODOT to add I-35 access but as PP said they have it listed with an outdated classification of rural they would have to stop dragging their feet and change it and as we know ODOT isn't known for speed.

----------


## s00nr1

The Rock Creek overpass in Norman should be the model -- no property tax increases to Norman citizens -- funded solely by the UNP TIF along with ODoT and ACOG dollars.

----------


## Robert_M

If I remember correctly at the time Moore and Norman both put in for the same ACOG dollars on their own bridge projects and that money was awarded to Norman which was only about $1M~.  

I think ODOT fronted about $4M~ for the project and I am sure Moore approached ODOT for help as well and they probably said no.

As for the other almost $8M came from a special assessment district.  I'm not a tax expert but from my understanding the land value was inflated to saw on about 350 acres or so there around Rock Creek in UNP which was undeveloped at the time to collect a higher property tax on that land to pay the difference. True the average Norman citizen didn't have their property tax go up but someone paid for it. I'm sure if this was an option for Moore they would have done the same thing

----------


## Roger S

I would probably support a temporary sales tax increase for the 34th Street bridge but I'm against a property tax hike for it and I feel strongly that the railroad underpass for 4th Street is a higher priority.

Was talking about it with some of my co-workers yesterday and when I said I was against it. One that lives in Norman said "I want that bridge to make it easier to get to Home Depot.". So I said "I'll vote yes if you want to reimburse me for the property tax increase."

----------


## Robert_M

This is why i think it will be toss up for the bridge to get approved. If I'm going east of the railroad tracks I will take 19th. If I'm coming from the city and going East I will take 27th or 12th so the underpass would not be a priority for me but I personally would still say yes because I know it effects others. If you don't drive 19th or don't drive 4th Street neither one would mean anything for you. And that is what the vote will come down to is if people feel the bridge will relieve the traffic they have to deal with on 19th or not.

In regard to the underpass I do feel that ODOT should be fitting the bill as it is a state highway. Don't know how feasible it is but I could also argue BNSF taking the two tracks down to 34th and then use the 2 miles between 4th and 34th to park a train but again BNSF would have to pay for that

----------


## Roger S

> In regard to the underpass I do feel that ODOT should be fitting the bill as it is a state highway. Don't know how feasible it is but I could also argue BNSF taking the two tracks down to 34th and then use the 2 miles between 4th and 34th to park a train but again BNSF would have to pay for that


I forgot that 4th is also a State Highway.... Yes ODOT should be paying for at least part of an underpass there if it ever happens.

Well I'm with the OP on this vote.... No to property taxes and yes to extend the sales tax.

----------


## s00nr1

As president of our HOA, I will be asking homeowners to vote no on the 34th St proposition as well.

----------


## bucfan1512

I will be voting no on the property tax but yes on the extension of sales.

----------


## Easy180

> Rxis I am right there with you and have voiced my concern over the 34th St overpass proposal on here before. The fact that so many OKC residents who live along 34th west of I35 will be using this while Moore homeowners have to fit the bill does not sit well with me.


Just described me lol. Will be payback for all the MAPS projects Moore folks get the benefit of ha ha

My guess is it will pass easily

----------


## s00nr1

> Just described me lol. Will be payback for all the MAPS projects Moore folks get the benefit of ha ha
> 
> My guess is it will pass easily


That doesn't quite make sense considering MAPS was a sales tax increase and this is a property tax increase.

----------


## Easy180

> That doesn't quite make sense considering MAPS was a sales tax increase and this is a property tax increase.


Best I could do on short notice.

----------


## JesStang

I think a bridge there would be fantastic but asking the citizens to pay for it is one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. 
I hope y'all vote no.

----------


## Jersey Boss

^ A perfect summation of the American voter.

----------


## s00nr1

There's a difference between "asking citizens to pay" which would be the case if ODoT funded the project, and asking *homeowners only* to pay for a project that will have no positive effect on 90% of home values in Moore. I have no problem with the former, only the latter in this case. This is opposed to my stance on the Moore Central Park proposition, which instituted a property tax increase that will benefit ALL Moore residents.

----------


## Roger S

> There's a difference between "asking citizens to pay" which would be the case if ODoT funded the project, and asking *homeowners only* to pay for a project that will have no positive effect on 90% of home values in Moore. I have no problem with the former, only the latter in this case. This is opposed to my stance on the Moore Central Park proposition, which instituted a property tax increase that will benefit ALL Moore residents.



And this isn't even really asking the citizens to pay... It's asking those of us that own property in Moore to pay.

One of the arguments I heard from someone was that it would benefit the new apartment complex being built south of the Town Center..... So they get to benefit from a bridge they have no stake in? Not if my NO vote to raise property taxes carries any weight they don't.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> And this isn't even really asking the citizens to pay... It's asking those of us that own property in Moore to pay.
> 
> One of the arguments I heard from someone was that it would benefit the new apartment complex being built south of the Town Center..... So they get to benefit from a bridge they have no stake in? Not if my NO vote to raise property taxes carries any weight they don't.


Have you driven on EVERY single street in OKC or the suburb you reside in? I'm guessing no. Why did you help pay for that street? How about the other taxes you pay that go to the national government and help fund other road projects around the country that receive federal funding? Been on all those?

My point is, just because you won't ever use it doesn't mean you won't have to pay for it.

----------


## Roger S

> Have you driven on EVERY single street in OKC or the suburb you reside in? I'm guessing no. Why did you help pay for that street? How about the other taxes you pay that go to the national government and help fund other road projects around the country that receive federal funding? Been on all those?
> 
> My point is, just because you won't ever use it doesn't mean you won't have to pay for it.


You totally missed the point.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> You totally missed the point.


Ok, I went back and reread it. I see what you're saying.

----------


## Roger S

> Ok, I went back and reread it. I see what you're saying.


It's the main reason why I said earlier that a temporary sales tax increase to fund it would probably get a yes vote from me but a property tax increase definitely is getting the NO vote from me.

And just for the record.... With the exception of residential streets in Moore.... Yes I regularly drive on most of the streets in Moore between, shopping, recreating, and family visits and with my blogging activity I'm very well travelled around the metro area in general.

----------


## JesStang

> ^ A perfect summation of the American voter.





> There's a difference between "asking citizens to pay" which would be the case if ODoT funded the project, and asking *homeowners only* to pay for a project that will have no positive effect on 90% of home values in Moore. I have no problem with the former, only the latter in this case. This is opposed to my stance on the Moore Central Park proposition, which instituted a property tax increase that will benefit ALL Moore residents.


^^^ I'm glad someone understood the point. Asking Moore to raise their property taxes so a bridge can be built over I-35 is one of the dumbest things I've heard. The state, ODOT, or even Moore/OKC should be paying for that, IMO. 
Using tax money to fix roads and beautify the town is way different than a highway bridge (with no ramps even).

----------


## SoonerVIC

Since ODOT has repeatedly turned Moore down on funding this project, it's not worth adding +/- $2 a month to your house payment to help ourselves out to alleviate the traffic congestion on 19th street?

----------


## Easy180

> Since ODOT has repeatedly turned Moore down on funding this project, it's not worth adding +/- $2 a month to your house payment to help ourselves out to alleviate the traffic congestion on 19th street?


For the price of a McDonalds lunch once a month you can get a bridge over I35 and have another way to avoid 19th. Should be an easy answer.

----------


## mblues

Well if it were just the price of a Mac lunch that would be one thing, but if you have a larger house this cost is more significant. Additionally, this is not the first thing to hit property taxes recently, there have been several like one for other major road improvements, fire and safety and parks. We are also hearing that there will be another one to fund the fourth street underpass at the RR crossing. When all of these are added together it adds quite a bit to the tax burden AND we won't even have access to I-35 at 34th street when all is said and done.

I haven't decided yet on how I will vote, but Taxing ourselves to much higher levels may not be the right answer.

----------


## s00nr1

$68 increase per $100,000 of assessed property value. 

!= $2/month.

Property tax increases should be saved for community-wide initiatives, such as school improvements and parks. Think for a second how far $15M would go when used for improvements to existing schools across Moore. This particular project is designed specifically to benefit only a small fraction of the community - businesses, and specifically only businesses on the southern-most section of Moore. 

City leaders got themselves into this mess by allowing 19th to be developed and designed the way it has been. They need to figure a way out of it that takes more thought and hard work than just dropping another tax increase on Moore homeowners.

----------


## s00nr1

> For the price of a McDonalds lunch once a month you can get a bridge over I35 and have another way to avoid 19th. Should be an easy answer.


This bridge does not provide the most beneficial method of avoiding 19th -- access to and exit from I-35. For me, as a homeowner on east 4th, it would have ZERO positive effect.

----------


## 94GTStang

> This bridge does not provide the most beneficial method of avoiding 19th -- access to and exit from I-35. For me, as a homeowner on east 4th, it would have ZERO positive effect.


So true. 

I'm surprised that the underpass on 4th didn't get any vote especially with the new park going in

----------


## Easy180

> This bridge does not provide the most beneficial method of avoiding 19th -- access to and exit from I-35. For me, as a homeowner on east 4th, it would have ZERO positive effect.


Well don't let me find your car over at Alfredo's then lol

----------


## Easy180

> $68 increase per $100,000 of assessed property value. 
> 
> != $2/month.
> 
> Property tax increases should be saved for community-wide initiatives, such as school improvements and parks. Think for a second how far $15M would go when used for improvements to existing schools across Moore. This particular project is designed specifically to benefit only a small fraction of the community - businesses, and specifically only businesses on the southern-most section of Moore. 
> 
> City leaders got themselves into this mess by allowing 19th to be developed and designed the way it has been. They need to figure a way out of it that takes more thought and hard work than just dropping another tax increase on Moore homeowners.


They aren't dropping anything other than a line item on a ballot

----------


## s00nr1

> They aren't dropping anything other than a line item on a ballot


I think you're smarter than that when it comes to a city council trying to push through a proposition like this.

----------


## s00nr1

> Well don't let me find your car over at Alfredo's then lol


4th to Telephone to 25th to Alfredo's. As I always have.

----------


## sharpshooter

> Just described me lol. Will be payback for all the MAPS projects Moore folks get the benefit of ha ha
> 
> My guess is it will pass easily


I'd like to hear more about this. Just exactly what benefits am I, as a Moore resident, getting from MAPS. As I understand it, most of the MAPS projects are located near downtown OKC.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> I'd like to hear more about this. Just exactly what benefits am I, as a Moore resident, getting from MAPS. As I understand it, most of the MAPS projects are located near downtown OKC.


Although the projects have been in OKC, they benefit the entire metro area unless you have never been to Bricktown to shop or eat, never been to the arena, never watched the Thunder, haven't been to the ball park, never been to the boathouse district, haven't gone to the civic center or the fairgrounds,  etc.  (and if you have been to these, than you probably spent money in OKC which helped pay for it)

----------


## sharpshooter

In the last week I've seen many signs spring up saying Vote Yes for the 34th street bridge. Is the City behind this effort? I thought the Mayor and council members were staying neutral on this one since they just recently pushed for passage of a tax increase to fund the new park.

----------


## s00nr1

> In the last week I've seen many signs spring up saying Vote Yes for the 34th street bridge. Is the City behind this effort? I thought the Mayor and council members were staying neutral on this one since they just recently pushed for passage of a tax increase to fund the new park.


Have a hunch this is the work of the Moore Chamber of Commerce backed by developers who have done their best to try to deceive uninformed voters.

----------


## Easy180

No deceit necessary for those of us living around 19th -34th. The Moore Chamber should support it since it would benefit about 60% of all businesses in Moore and all of the big time ones.

----------


## yunome12@yahoo.com

VOTE NO!  Not our job to pay for a bridge.  As Americans we are taxed to death...VOTE NO!  The more we continue to give into new taxes, the more they will keep coming back.

----------


## Roger S

Starting to look like I won't be able to vote at all..... Sent off my updated info to the Voter Registration Board two months ago and still have nothing back from them.

Was probably one of the Big Two party members processing my info and  saw I'm a Libertarian and they "accidentally" lost my card.  :Wink:

----------


## Zuplar

> Starting to look like I won't be able to vote at all..... Sent off my updated info to the Voter Registration Board two months ago and still have nothing back from them.
> 
> Was probably one of the Big Two party members processing my info and  saw I'm a Libertarian and they "accidentally" lost my card.


You can register has a Libertarian? I thought it was only GOP, Dem or Independent.

----------


## Roger S

> You can register has a Libertarian? I thought it was only GOP, Dem or Independent.


The form has 4 check boxes now... Democratic - Republican - No Party - Other

The instructions say that if you write a party other than Democrat or Republican you will be registered as Independent

----------


## Zuplar

> The form has 4 check boxes now... Democratic - Republican - No Party - Other
> 
> The instructions say that if you write a party other than Democrat or Republican you will be registered as Independent


Gotcha, so realistically, you can't register as a Libertarian. Only reason I stay registered as a Democrat is so I can vote in primary's. If anything I'm probably more Republican, but I always thought it was a good strategy to vote for the best worst case scenario.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Easy180

> VOTE NO!  Not our job to pay for a bridge.  As Americans we are taxed to death...VOTE NO!  The more we continue to give into new taxes, the more they will keep coming back.


It is when the Feds won't pay for it

----------


## Roger S

> Gotcha, so realistically, you can't register as a Libertarian.


Nope, not realistically. Only defiantly.  :Wink:

----------


## s00nr1

> No deceit necessary for those of us living around 19th -34th. The Moore Chamber should support it since it would benefit about 60% of all businesses in Moore and all of the big time ones.


Exactly -- for the whole 10% of the community this will benefit, 100% of the community will have to pick up the cost. As opposed, to say, the $15 million going toward Moore schools which would subsequently benefit all of Moore (and have a greater positive impact on property values). 

A property tax on all homeowners to benefit a select few as a result of developer influence is an irresponsible use of taxation. Plain and simple.

----------


## Easy180

,


> Exactly -- for the whole 10% of the community this will benefit, 100% of the community will have to pick up the cost. As opposed, to say, the $15 million going toward Moore schools which would subsequently benefit all of Moore (and have a greater positive impact on property values). 
> 
> A property tax on all homeowners to benefit a select few as a result of developer influence is an irresponsible use of taxation. Plain and simple.


A select few?  Me thinks you no drive around the 19th area  :Smiley122:

----------


## s00nr1

Pretty disappointed with the City of Moore after reading the text they decided to use for proposition 1 on the ballot. Uninformed voters are being led to believe the passing of the proposition will lead to improvements to streets and bridges all across Moore, as there is not a single mention the property tax increase funds will be used exclusively for the new 34th St. bridge.

----------


## Roger S

> ,
> 
> A select few?  Me thinks you no drive around the 19th area


I drive through there regularly.... Still don't want to fund this bridge by having my property taxes raised.

Should have been a sales tax so that people using that bridge coming from outside Moore could help pay for it.

----------


## Zuplar

> Pretty disappointed with the City of Moore after reading the text they decided to use for proposition 1 on the ballot. Uninformed voters are being led to believe the passing of the proposition will lead to improvements to streets and bridges all across Moore, as there is not a single mention the property tax increase funds will be used exclusively for the new 34th St. bridge.


Do you have the wording? That sounds like a shame. I hate the wording on the ballots sometimes, cause if you are reading some of them for the first time when voting you could vote wrong. I sometimes wonder if those who write it, do so to get the votes they want.

----------


## s00nr1

The other interesting thing to note is the terminology stating a 20-year bond maturity as opposed to the 15 years previously mentioned.

20141104_082153-1-1[1].jpg

----------


## Zuplar

Yep I can see how people are going to vote for that.

----------


## bille

Voted no but I know it'll pass.  I'll use it regularly but I don't like the approach.  The city has been too proactive with bringing in business and too reactive to the amount of traffic it's already creating.  The bridge, even if it did have on/off ramps, will only slightly help with the traffic, with the businesses/housing in the area there needs to be an entire revamping of the 19th street bridge and I35 service roads.

----------


## s00nr1

> Voted no but I know it'll pass.  I'll use it regularly but I don't like the approach.  The city has been too proactive with bringing in business and too reactive to the amount of traffic it's already creating.  The bridge, even if it did have on/off ramps, will only slightly help with the traffic, with the businesses/housing in the area there needs to be an entire revamping of the 19th street bridge and I35 service roads.


19th St. will still be a nightmare due to poor planning. That will not change with the addition of a bridge at 34th.

----------


## Zuplar

Looks like it passed. After seeing the wording not surprised. I wonder how many people originally were voting no on the bridge ended up voting yes. Never going to know just something to think about.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I'm surpised they were allowed to word it like that. 

Why would it be so hard to just say:

"Do you approve of a property increase of x dollars of month for a new bridge to be constructed south of 19th Street.

Yes

No"

----------


## Easy180

This will be a definite quality of life improvement for thousands of us that live in and frequent this area...Excited that it passed

----------


## s00nr1

> This will be a definite quality of life improvement for thousands of us that live in and frequent this area...Excited that it passed


Congrats. Let's just hope the Moore City Council follows through on its promise to press ODoT for I-35 access.

----------


## Easy180

> Congrats. Let's just hope the Moore City Council follows through on its promise to press ODoT for I-35 access.


They better or it takes a good amount of my excitement away.

----------


## Robert_M

Since some brought it up Moore Monthly had this video posted on their site yesterday about the language.  Form your own conclusions / conspiracy theory.

11nov2 eddy on ballot language FINAL on Vimeo

As for I-35 access and 4th Street underpass. Both these should be ODOT's responsibility and those concerns should be forwarded to them with calls and letters.  They need to stop dragging their feet and put up the money for this since they didn't offer any help for the bridge.

----------


## Easy180

The comments on the city's FaceBook posts are pretty entertaining. People are really fired up over the wording but it would have passed regardless. Sure the vast majority that actually made the effort to go vote on it knew exactly what it was for.

----------


## bucfan1512

> The comments on the city's FaceBook posts are pretty entertaining. People are really fired up over the wording but it would have passed regardless. Sure the vast majority that actually made the effort to go vote on it knew exactly what it was for.


I think an argument could be made about your last sentence.  At this point is over and we have to move on regardless.  Hopefully promises are kept but I will not be holding my breath.

----------


## Robert_M

They sent out a flier with the utility bills that described what the two propositions were for as well as the news stories they had out. I would agree that a majority of voters should have known what it they were voting on.

----------


## sharpshooter

I think I read somewhere that it would be 2 or 3 years at the earliest for the bridge construction to start. Not sure about that.

Like others here, I was surprised at how the proposition was worded on the ballot. Our city leaders sure know how to work the system it seems.

----------


## Easy180

> I think I read somewhere that it would be 2 or 3 years at the earliest for the bridge construction to start. Not sure about that.
> 
> Like others here, I was surprised at how the proposition was worded on the ballot. Our city leaders sure know how to work the system it seems.


I have to agree it could have been worded better but doesn't everything pass in Moore?  Part of the reason it has exploded in recent years.

----------


## bucfan1512

> I have to agree it could have been worded better but doesn't everything pass in Moore?  Part of the reason it has exploded in recent years.


That is a good point.  I wonder what the last thing voted down was?

----------


## SoonerVIC

> I think I read somewhere that it would be 2 or 3 years at the earliest for the bridge construction to start. Not sure about that.
> 
> Like others here, I was surprised at how the proposition was worded on the ballot. Our city leaders sure know how to work the system it seems.


When I was standing in line to vote, just by chance I spoke to a high ranking city official who knows about the bridge project.  He said it would most likely be about a year before we saw any construction started on it.  The engineering and purchasing of right of ways, etc... will take that long to get ready.  I'm sure there is more to it, but that's what I took away from what he said.  I don't want to mention any names to avoid him any grief in case things don't happen that soon... not because I have some "secret source inside the program". ;-)

----------

