# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  Where did Journey Church come from?

## ChargerAg

I have visited this church and was curious as to the history of it.   It seems very big for being such a young church.  Did it split away from another church?

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## jbrown84

I don't think so, but I could be wrong.  It just exploded, much like LifeChurch.  It's basically LifeChurch Norman, minus Craig Groeschel.  Why do you think there isn't a LC in Norman?

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## bluedogok

It started out much like Life Church, people meeting in someone's living room and grew exceptionally fast, well beyond expectations.

Journey Church - Our Story

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## ChargerAg

Thanks for the link.   You aren't kidding about rapid growth.   34 people during the first meeting to 550 in the first service?    I wonder where those numbers came from.  I am guessing they were Norman people that drove to one of the far away life churches and when Journey opened they came to the local one?   I did a little research based on that link and it looks like Clark was at a edmund church originally and then opened up the norman campus.

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## bluedogok

At the time that Journey Church started there was only the Life Church campus at NW 150th and Portland and the merger with Metro Church was in progress. The first time that I went to Life Church they were meeting at the Mat Hoffman shop in the old SW Bell service center at NW 122nd & Santa Fe a little before the NW OKC Campus opened. There was a short lived Sunday morning service at the AMC Quail Springs theater before the Metro Church merger. I know during that time there were quite a few plant churches that Life Church were active in getting started, many of the plants were people who had been through a plant program at Life Church, I think the staff that did the AMC service went to a new plant church but can't remember where.

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## jbkrems

Journey Church actually is an off-shoot of Metro Church.  Journey's pastor came from Metro, along with some other staff that did not stay post-merger.  Others from Metro went north to Guthrie, and started a church up there, as well.

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## venture

Wish I thought of it...all that money.

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## adaniel

Just came across this thread. I attended Journey Church when I was still at OU from late 2006 to mid 2009. Without getting too preachy, it was a great place, and I credit it with renewing my faith after I had a very bad experience with the church I grew up in. Clark Mitchell has talked openly about how the church was formed. He was still at Metro Church and decided that he was "called" to start a new church in Norman after their merge. Journey initially struggled, but they began to really grow once they began to open up college ministries (before they came, the only true college ministries were McFarlin, Bethel,and the Norman Mormon Temple). You can see this today with the Lifestream service and The Loft at Campus Corner, both made to exclusively serve college students. Also, Clark received a large inheritance from a family member and he plowed a significant amount of it back into the church.  

Don't quote me on this, but I think its the largest church in Cleveland County now based on weekly attendance.

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## jbrown84

> Don't quote me on this, but I think its the largest church in Cleveland County now based on weekly attendance.


I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

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## rcjunkie

If you wish you had thought of it just because of "the money", you definately need to attend.

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## venture

> If you wish you had thought of it just because of "the money", you definately need to attend.


Call me old fashioned...but a church isn't in a building similar to that of Walmart. If I wanted to go into a big box building to exchange money, I'd go somewhere where I can get a receipt in case I want to return what I was sold. :-P  

To each their own. I've attended a big box "church" before...and it was nothing more than a brain washing/fund raising campaign by some self absorbed "man of God" who thought he was the next prophet.

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## bluedogok

That is what many lose sight of, congregations big and small, a "church" isn't the building the congregation is in,. A "church" is the people that make up the congregation, a "church" can be anywhere in anyplace and too many start equating the building makes the church. Just because they started out in a *donated* former Wal-Mart doesn't make it any less a church, in fact many would say that is a rather good stewardship of resources.

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## venture

Donated Walmart which is now a Sam's Club again? So did they actually transfer ownership or just take the tax write off to let them sit in there for a bit? Or did the organization sell the building back to Walmart at a nice gain? Granted we'll never know that. 

Eh, I guess I'm just too old fashioned. When the pastors of these places stop living in 500K to multi-million dollar homes and donate the vast majority of their money back into the community...then I may care. Instead, they are all just tax evading con artists that are getting a flock of sheep to pay for an exclusive lifestyle and I pity all those that fall for that trap. But that's just me and my opinion that was formed outside of the cult of the bible belt. :-P

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## UnclePete

Agree 100% Venture.  We have entirely too many millionaire preachers.  Do preachers pay income tax?






> Donated Walmart which is now a Sam's Club again? So did they actually transfer ownership or just take the tax write off to let them sit in there for a bit? Or did the organization sell the building back to Walmart at a nice gain? Granted we'll never know that. 
> 
> Eh, I guess I'm just too old fashioned. When the pastors of these places stop living in 500K to multi-million dollar homes and donate the vast majority of their money back into the community...then I may care. Instead, they are all just tax evading con artists that are getting a flock of sheep to pay for an exclusive lifestyle and I pity all those that fall for that trap. But that's just me and my opinion that was formed outside of the cult of the bible belt. :-P

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## bluedogok

> Donated Walmart which is now a Sam's Club again? So did they actually transfer ownership or just take the tax write off to let them sit in there for a bit? Or did the organization sell the building back to Walmart at a nice gain? Granted we'll never know that.


My understanding was that Wal-Mart let them use the empty store rent free, in essence they donated the lease of the space to the church. Wal-Mart always owned the building so it never came off the tax rolls as the church never owned it. Leasing type of use doesn't affect tax rolls, only ownership does and not all church property is subject to being removed from the rolls but that does vary widely according to jurisdiction.




> Eh, I guess I'm just too old fashioned. When the pastors of these places stop living in 500K to multi-million dollar homes and donate the vast majority of their money back into the community...then I may care. Instead, they are all just tax evading con artists that are getting a flock of sheep to pay for an exclusive lifestyle and I pity all those that fall for that trap. But that's just me and my opinion that was formed outside of the cult of the bible belt. :-P


Just because a church is big doesn't mean the pastors "are taking home millions", yes some do and some don't. I know that Craig at Life Church lived in a neighborhood fairly close to the OKC campus in what most would call an "average" home, many of the people attending had much more expensive homes/lifestyle than he did (at that time). He was known for being pretty cheap/frugal mentioning it often in his sermons and friends of him that I knew would validate that fact. I do know that he has since moved from that house but since I have been gone from OKC for seven years I have no idea where. He just never seemed like the type of guy who would build a lavish compound like the Roberts clan, Tilton or so many others who have done that.

Your attitude will probably never change, because you have your mind made up from the negative reports that have made a big splash in the, most people ignore the positive because that doesn't make news and the majority of pastors live anything but an opulent life, most struggle to pay their bills...but don't let that affect a preconceived notion.




> Do preachers pay income tax?


Why would you think they wouldn't? It is taxable income just like everyone else, only the "non-profit" entity has some tax abatement but all employees pay taxes like everyone else, in fact a "parsonage" can be considered a "paid benefit" and subject to the personal income taxes. If is a fallacy that non-profit employees don't pay taxes, I know, my wife works for a non-profit but her/our taxes are the same as everyone.

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## Easy180

Preachin is definitely a lucrative profession in Okla for those who are solid in front of crowds

Put me down for suspicious when it comes to Mega churches but I am also sure they do a lot of good in their communities...Other than taking 10% of hard working folks money...lol

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## jbkrems

Every church should be taking 10% in of their members' money... its called the TITHE, and its biblical.  Its not funny.

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## bluedogok

> Preachin is definitely a lucrative profession in Okla for those who are solid in front of crowds
> 
> Put me down for suspicious when it comes to Mega churches but I am also sure they do a lot of good in their communities...Other than taking 10% of hard working folks money...lol


The church isn't "taking" anything from anyone, they are accepting whatever people decide to give. 
I gave when I could and many times didn't give anything, I was never coerced or forced to give anything.
Much better to give it to a local church than some televangelist somewhere who pretty much everyone knows is in it for the money.

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## Double Edge

> MLeasing type of use doesn't affect tax rolls, only ownership does and not all church property is subject to being removed from the rolls but that does vary widely according to jurisdiction.


I'm sure Walmart wrote off the value of the donated lease from their income. That's as fair as any other tax deductible donation and better than leaving an empty building around.

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## bluedogok

I guess that I should have been more clear on that specifying property tax rolls, so the write-off would have been for income tax purposes, not for property taxes. So it isn't a "complete" write-off and Norman/Cleveland County still received property tax revenue.

I agree, some use is better than no use, there are too many vacant commercial spaces around with "dark" stores due to relocation (namely Wal-Mart and Target) or chains closing like Circuit City, Linens and Things and CompUSA, Albertson's closing so many stores and completely exiting some markets). It is interesting some of the temporary uses that have been made from these dark locations.

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## BossLady

> call me old fashioned...but a church isn't in a building similar to that of walmart. If i wanted to go into a big box building to exchange money, i'd go somewhere where i can get a receipt in case i want to return what i was sold. :-p  
> 
> to each their own. I've attended a big box "church" before...and it was nothing more than a brain washing/fund raising campaign by some self absorbed "man of god" who thought he was the next prophet.



amen!

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## ChargerAg

That's interesting to know that Clark inherited a large sum of money.   I had heard that he lived in a $500k+ house and that always kind of bothered me.    I will give him the benefit of the doubt and give him that he probably used his inheritance to build his house rather then money from a large church salary.

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## BDK

I never really cared for any of those large churches. I don't see how they reconcile their philosophy with the Bible, especially with verses like Luke 12:33. Not to say that I'm particularly religious, though...

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## kevinpate

> That is what many lose sight of, congregations big and small, a "church" isn't the building the congregation is in,. A "church" is the people that make up the congregation, a "church" can be anywhere in anyplace and too many start equating the building makes the church. Just because they started out in a *donated* former Wal-Mart doesn't make it any less a church, in fact many would say that is a rather good stewardship of resources.


This.  
The building, though some are decorated as ornately as fanciful Easter eggs and some are left plain, is simply a shell that encases the church.
I've never found a reason to think otherwise.

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## metro

> At the time that Journey Church started there was only the Life Church campus at NW 150th and Portland and the merger with Metro Church was in progress. The first time that I went to Life Church they were meeting at the Mat Hoffman shop in the old SW Bell service center at NW 122nd & Santa Fe a little before the NW OKC Campus opened. There was a short lived Sunday morning service at the AMC Quail Springs theater before the Metro Church merger. I know during that time there were quite a few plant churches that Life Church were active in getting started, many of the plants were people who had been through a plant program at Life Church, I think the staff that did the AMC service went to a new plant church but can't remember where.


Not completely accurate. Yes Journey Church has several LC.tv ties. Several of LC staff members were also later recruited by Journey Church, but both churches work together on things (how the church as a whole should be). The NW OKC campus is the 2nd to the newest LC campus, well if you don't consider the new remodel of Indian Hills, a Nashville suburb. NWOKC campus was opened 3 years ago, there were about 12 other campuses in 6 states that opened before NW OKC. The Metro Church/Journey church thing goes wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back. Edmond was the 2nd campus, then I'm not sure what order, S. OKC, Tulsa area campuses, Ft. Worth, Phoenix AZ area, Stillwater, Albany NY, Wellington FL, Hendersonville TN, Owasso OK, NW OKC, Yukon, Indian Hills TN.

Anyhow as others have said, Groechel has lived a very frugal life as his first 10 or so years as pastor, lived well below his means, bought his first investment rent house in college and bought several more since that time on his own private dime. Donates a large chunk of his income back to lots of other causes. Usually donates all his book proceeds to other causes, etc. I can vouch that he is the real deal and practices what he preaches.

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## mooreon

While a student at OU back in 2000, I used to drive all the way from Norman to Edmond to worship at Life Church. I started attending Journey when they were located in the Sam's location  because it was closer.  I've been attending Journey since and credit them with my return to worshipping Christ. I've never felt pressured to donate money. I understand the hesitation and skepticism for mega-churches, but I feel right at home at Journey. It should be noted I grew up worshipping in much smaller churches when I was younger.

I'd encourage anyone looking to learn about Christ to give Journey a try. God Bless!

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## bluedogok

I was referring to the 150th & Penn as the NW OKC campus compared to Edmond which was the former Metro Church campus, I guess that is just called the OKC campus now. The NW Highway campus happened around the time or after I left Life Church and moved to Austin. When I moved Tulsa and Stillwater were the only campuses outside the OKC area.

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## metro

Oh ok. Yeah they've always just called it the OKC Campus. It's really Edmond to me, even though I know technically it's still OKC city limits. Not sure why they don't call it North OKC Campus or the "main campus", etc. I know Pastor Craig doesn't like the word "main campus" or to think that there is a main campus, etc. It's always been the original campus to me, and it's where the church broadcasts worldwide out of.  The campus the church refers to as NW campus is the one you're referring to at NW Exp. and MacArthur. I helped launch that campus and have been there since it opened.  No pretty sure we had several out of state before Stillwater was added. I think the two in Phoenix area and maybe Nashville too. Can't remember. I've been at the church about 12 of it's 14 years in existence so my memory is fairly good.

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