# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Tulsa & Suburbs >  Santa Fe Square in the Blue Dome District

## Swake

Here are the real details on the long rumored Eliot Nelson project in the Blue Dome area. This is the site of a huge two block long parking lot that extends from Elgin to Greenwood between 1st and 2nd streets. The info was found on LoopNet as they are now preleasing. 

Total Project 600,000 square feet
291 Apartments
170,000 sq ft of office space
140,000 sq ft of retail space
105 room hotel
1450 structured parking spaces

They are preserving the existing historic structure on the site, The Santa Fe Depot, and incorporating it into the Hotel part of the project. 

New images:



Link to PDF:
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB871...34B8E5900A.pdf

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## dankrutka

Wow. This is going to do so much to bring the district together.

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## warreng88

> Wow. This is going to do so much to bring the district together.


Like the rug in The Big Lebowski...

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## Swake

Tulsa World Article
Santa Fe Square to bring retail, office, apartments, 105-room hotel downtown - Tulsa World: Real Estate

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## BG918

Some more renderings

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## Pete

Very nice!

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## dankrutka

I've already said this, but this development really will fill in that area. It will change the entire feel of that area. Tremendous.

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## TU 'cane

Hoping to break ground in 2016, that's about all there is that's new: 

Developer Has Plans For $150M Project For Blue Dome District - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com |

One observation: if this gets going along with the PAC parking lot overhaul and it meets closely with what has been envisioned, downtown Tulsa will boom. We're talking with the already present addition of the other apartment units scattered about, and concentrated in the East Village. Then you add this development on top of the re-development proposed for the PAC parking lot and downtown Tulsa becomes hot overnight. 

Really exciting.

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## Plutonic Panda

This is going to be a beautiful project! Very excited about it. They just need to get more serious about that grocery store because if that happened along with the tornado tower and the Pop Culture Museum, downtown Tulsa would have some seriously cool projects going on.

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## Plutonic Panda

Santa Fe Square plans grab sportlight in 2015 - Tulsa World: Real Estate

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## Swake

Tulsa Mayor's Office Signs Off On East Village Development - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com |

The related TIF has been approved and this project is a go. They hope to start construction this year.

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## Teo9969

How much TIF are they getting?

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## TexanOkie

> How much TIF are they getting?


The City of Tulsa has posted the TIF Project Plan on their website (link). It has a total budget of $36.2M.

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## Teo9969

> The City of Tulsa has posted the TIF Project Plan on their website (link). It has a total budget of $36.2M.


The way I understand it the TIF has a total project budget of $60M+ and that Santa Fe Square is getting $36.2M.

That's 25% of the development...Elliot Nelson probably deserves it as not only has he done amazing things for Tulsa, he's also found a way to syphon money out of OKC and send it up the turnpike...but still...25% is a LOT of public subsidy.

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## Pete

^

Total project cost is estimated at $160MM and they are requesting TIF funds for $36.2MM, which is 22.6% of the total project cost.

That is a ton of money, both in total and as a percentage.

OKC typically awards 5 to 8% with the high being 10% to 21c.

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## Motley

What was the ask for the OGE building and residential towers?

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## Teo9969

> What was the ask for the OGE building and residential towers?


$143M TIF / $553M Project Cost 25%.

Project dead.

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## Teo9969

It looks like the Tulsa media is just as out to lunch as the OKC media.

You just have to acknowledge that the city is paying for 20%+ of someone else's private project.

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## Motley

Interesting to see if Tulsa feels the money will act to accelerate other developments, making is a worthwhile investment.

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## Pete

Nobody really understands TIF in Oklahoma, which is why these districts get passed so easily and the money spent without much question.

California has had TIF for 60 years and finally figured out the realities; that you are robbing other beneficiaries of property tax (mainly schools) and giving the money to private developers.  Now, those programs have been highly curtailed.

It's so complex people don't really get this, and that's the way the economic development agencies in cities want it.  No public vote, no real understanding...  Just moving tax dollars around and distributing them with quasi oversight, where the people ultimately approving (usually city council) are fed unproven propaganda from one side.

There are some really good applications for TIF, like the Skirvin, First National Center or even the Wheeler District.  Projects that really do need a leg up and then will drive legitimate new development and revenue.

But giving private developers millions in gifted tax dollars for brand new projects on completely cleared pieces of land surrounded by billions in public investment...  Not only does it not make sense it creates an incredibly unfair competitive environment where if you don't get the same type of incentives, you are severely disadvantaged.

BTW, OKC has yet to use any TIF dollars for the dozens of new hotels that have sprung up around downtown.  Apart from the Skirvin, which was a massive renovation mess.

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## Motley

To me, it is similar to the new stadium arguments in San Diego.  Does the investment by the city/taxpayers spur other development and tourism to compensate for the massive subsidy to the team owners?  I always felt one argument for the Clayco development was that it would help to push OKC up to another level when it comes to the downtown area and be a real catalyst to further growth.

I have seen reports that having the Chargers in SD will not compensate for the investment, but I sure think all the money spent to get the Thunder in OKC was well worth it.  Very doubtful that the Clayco development would make the same impact on OKC, but it would have enhanced the skyline nicely.

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## Swake

There isnt any large amount of public money that has been spent in the Blue Dome/East Village area of Tulsa and this is a true mixed use project with four components:

1.	Residential  291 Units
2.	Office  170,000 square feet
3.	Retail  80,000 square feet
4.	Parking  1,450 parking spaces

It does this while preserving the Santa Fe Depot building as part of the hotel as well. 

This is intended to spur other developments other than just bar/restaurants in Blue Dome and it links The East Village and Blue Dome areas together while it maintains the current parking that this lot provides for the area. 

Tulsa also hasnt hit the TIF well as hard as OKC, Tulsa only has four TIF districts.
Blue Dome, now valued at $60 million with this project getting $36 million
Brady Village, $4.5 million
Tulsa Hills, $16.5 million
North Peoria, $8 million

All of them combined are only half the size of OKCs Devon TIF.

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## Teo9969

The Devon TIF is Project 180 IIRC. So that well was for public improvements downtown and not to subsidize the tower.

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## TexanOkie

> The Devon TIF is Project 180 IIRC. So that well was for public improvements downtown and not to subsidize the tower.


The $36M "assistance in development financing" supports the cost of the parking structure and streetscape improvements for the Santa Fe Square project, not to subsidize the mixed use buildings or hotel components.

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## Teo9969

> The $36M "assistance in development financing" supports the cost of the parking structure and streetscape improvements for the Santa Fe Square project, not to subsidize the mixed use buildings or hotel components.


The streetscape is chump change so the real question then is who makes the money from the parking garage? Because if it's not the city then you're being incredibly disingenuous saying that it's earmarked "only for the Parking and streetscape".

It's not the city's garage, it's a subsidy to the product at large. They couldn't build what they're building with out addressing the parking, and you can bury your head in the sand and choose to believe that the rest of the parking is going to be free to the public that's paying for said parking, but we all know it's going to cost anyone who isn't living/working/staying at the facility and they will be paying Elliot Nelson.

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## TexanOkie

> The streetscape is chump change so the real question then is who makes the money from the parking garage? Because if it's not the city then you're being incredibly disingenuous saying that it's earmarked "only for the Parking and streetscape".
> 
> It's not the city's garage, it's a subsidy to the product at large. They couldn't build what they're building with out addressing the parking, and you can bury your head in the sand and choose to believe that the rest of the parking is going to be free to the public that's paying for said parking, but we all know it's going to cost anyone who isn't living/working/staying at the facility and they will be paying Elliot Nelson.


I never said it was going to be free to the public, or even that the parking garage is a public improvement. It's merely a vehicle to tie the public subsidy to a tangible asset rather than having it simply be a blanket investment in the project. Doing so also helps the developer stabilize his projected cash flow and absorption in a way that makes the project feasible to begin with. Without the garage, with the space needed to address the parking concerns (you said yourself they'd have to address parking), you're looking at maybe a $65M development instead of a $160M, and that's assuming the high land costs wouldn't push private lenders away from the project entirely.

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## Swake

> The Devon TIF is Project 180 IIRC. So that well was for public improvements downtown and not to subsidize the tower.


I would argue that was a much worse use of a TIF. It redirected $170 million dollars that would have mostly gone to OKCPS to some trees and lighting. The Devon tower was going to be built either way, so that TIF was straight up taking money from schools.

This project would NOT have happened without the TIF so the schools weren't impacted.

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## Pete

> This project would NOT have happened without the TIF so the schools weren't impacted.


This is the age-old "but-for" argument that is always asserted by developers and can never be proven.

And because the TIF governing bodies don't track and report who asks for TIF, gets denied and builds anyway, the public never knows, either.

I know there has been at least one of those cases in OKC, but only know it because the developer happened to tell me about it.  I'm sure there were others that we'll never know about.

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## TexanOkie

> This is the age-old "but-for" argument that is always asserted by developers and can never be proven.
> 
> And because the TIF governing bodies don't track and report who asks for TIF, gets denied and builds anyway, the public never knows, either.
> 
> I know there has been at least one of those cases in OKC, but only know it because the developer happened to tell me about it.  I'm sure there were others that we'll never know about.


The City of Tulsa requires formal applications from people requesting tax increment districts. Not all of those applications make their way to the Mayor or Council, but they do have records. Of course, these records don't keep track of specific allocations of TIF money, but Tulsa also doesn't operate TIFs as a broad redevelopment funding policy in large geographic areas with general budget categories the same way Oklahoma City does, either. Every Tulsa TIF until Santa Fe Square has had specific public improvement plans tied to their TIF budgets.

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## Pete

^

Thanks for the clarification.

But I suspect there are still plenty of incidences where there are informal discussions and developers don't actually make formal application because they don't think they will be approved.

That's exactly what happens in OKC over and over again.  Several developers have told me they were basically told in informal meetings 'not going to happen' so they never formally applied.

It's effectively the same as declining an application, just earlier in the process.

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## sooner88

> This is the age-old "but-for" argument that is always asserted by developers and can never be proven.
> 
> And because the TIF governing bodies don't track and report who asks for TIF, gets denied and builds anyway, the public never knows, either.
> 
> I know there has been at least one of those cases in OKC, but only know it because the developer happened to tell me about it.  I'm sure there were others that we'll never know about.


There's no reason right now, from the developer's perspective, to not apply for TIF. If they were going to build either way, it seems like it may be worth a shot for them regardless.

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## Pete

> There's no reason right now, from the developer's perspective, to not apply for TIF. If they were going to build either way, it seems like it may be worth a shot for them regardless.


Of course!

It's completely free money to them AND they are no doubt going to compete with projects that have already received such incentives.

It's amazing how many developers in OKC have exactly a 5 to 8% funding gap when they formally apply and how that has stayed consistent throughout the 15 year life of the downtown TIF.

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## Swake

> This is the age-old "but-for" argument that is always asserted by developers and can never be proven.


True. But it's also true that the site of Santa Fe Square has been a parking lot for at least 40 years.  Would something else have been built there? Sure, my guess is someone like Bomasada would have come in with a semi-urban EIFS and stacked stone apartment block monstrosity before too long. What Nelson is building is a much higher use and maintaining the parking IS important to the existing Blue Dome businesses, no matter who owns it.

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## TexanOkie

> Of course!
> 
> It's completely free money to them AND they are no doubt going to compete with projects that have already received such incentives.
> 
> It's amazing how many developers in OKC have exactly a 5 to 8% funding gap when they formally apply and how that has stayed consistent throughout the 15 year life of the downtown TIF.


Building on what you had previously written (about informal conversations resulting in developers either choosing not to apply or being told the application likely wouldn't be supported), could it be that  that general range has something to do with the subsidy's ability to pay for itself through collection of tax increments on the project? If people who are higher or lower than that range aren't consistently applying, it might because the feasibility analysis/conversation within the City and between the City and the developer shows that the project is either not economically feasible, feasible with slight modifications to the design/proforma, or might result in a net drain on TIF revenue. It'd be interesting to hear Brent Bryant's take on this. Maybe your conversations with him have touched this subject?

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## Plutonic Panda

Has this started?

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## Swake

> Has this started?


No, but it's only been three months since the TIF was approved and part of the site is currently being used for staging for the Edge at East Village project.

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## Plutonic Panda

Any idea on when it might start? I am going to list it on Skyscraper Page here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=223969

FWIW, I'm also trying to get a Tulsa section on Skyrise Cities as well as OKC. So any information helps  :Smile:

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## Swake

Santa Fe Square starts construction next week
http://www.newson6.com/story/3407709...sa-development

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## Swake

The Hotel Indigo part of the project break ground this week


The rest of the project will start in January or February

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## HangryHippo

> The Hotel Indigo part of the project break ground this week
> 
> The rest of the project will start in January or February


Any renderings of OKC's Hotel Indigo you can share?

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## BG918

Too bad they couldn't just have the dropoff point along Elgin or under the hotel.  Regardless this is good news for the Santa Fe Square development and is a game changing project for downtown Tulsa.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

hotel Indigo making good progress.  Not sure about the rest of the square though.  See link below for some recent pics 

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21619.0

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## BG918

Some updated renderings

2nd Street frontage from Elgin to Greenwood (the Hotel Indigo is behind this building to the north)


Frankfort Ave. promenade between 1st and 2nd with a proposed movie theater


2nd & Elgin office building on the left, apartments in the center, movie theater/parking on the right and office building at 1st & Greenwood top right

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## Plutonic Panda

Do they have any ideas what company will go into the cinema? An Alamo Drafthouse will kill it here.

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## BG918

> Do they have any ideas what company will go into the cinema? An Alamo Drafthouse will kill it here.


The cinema is a new add so I'm not sure.  I agree Alamo would be pretty awesome.

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## Pete

^

That space is nowhere near big enough for Alamo, which is why they typically don't go into urban areas.

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## sooner88

> ^
> 
> That space is nowhere near big enough for Alamo, which is why they typically don't go into urban areas.


How big is that space? The Alamo in the Power & Light District is pretty awesome, but that's different than Alamo's new model.

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## Eric

> ^
> 
> That space is nowhere near big enough for Alamo, which is why they typically don't go into urban areas.


Is it really all that much smaller than the one on Lamar in Dallas?

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## Pete

They have 7 locations in DFW.

I highly doubt they would put their one and only location in a new market in a downtown/urban area unless it's a huge city like New York or L.A.

They didn't even sniff OKC's urban core and will almost certainly end up at Chisholm Creek.

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## Eric

> They have 7 locations in DFW.
> 
> I highly doubt they would put their one and only location in a new market in a downtown/urban area unless it's a huge city like New York or L.A.
> 
> They didn't even sniff OKC's urban core and will almost certainly end up at Chisholm Creek.


They franchise. Wouldn't it have far more to do with the developer/operator than Alamo's opinions? I believe they are looking for franchisees to be responsible for "areas". They never really specify what type of locations they prefer. Only that they have "deep pockets" (my words). 

And if you have real estate that you want to offer, here are Alamo's requirements:

Generally speaking, we are seeking sites that meet the following criteria:




> Located 3+ miles driving distance from the nearest first run movie theatre
> 40,000+ leasable square feet
> Capacity for 10+ screens

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## Pete

Alamo would still provide advice / approval.

You think 10 screens are going to fit into that building shown?

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## Eric

> Alamo would still provide advice / approval.
> 
> You think 10 screens are going to fit into that building shown?


Not sure.

But the one on Lamar is 9 screens and appears could be of similar size. 

One of the other new ones on Aldrich in Austin is only 6 screens I believe, and is likely a smaller footprint than the images above depict. 

The Sloans Lake location in Denver has 8 screens.

These are all examples of urban(ish) new builds. 

Obviously they are willing to deviate. Not saying it's going to happen. Just saying writing it off for spurious reasons may not be the answer either. If the right operator/developer come along, a lot of things can happen in places you wouldn't normally expect it to. See the Kansas City location for evidence of this. No way should one have gone there but it did. I love going there to boot.

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## UrbanNebraska

Honestly not a humblebrag, but just an example in a similar market to Tulsa.  Alamo is opening a second location in our metro area with only 5 screens in an urban mixed use development that is 3 miles from one first run cinema, 3.5 from another and 1.5 miles from two different limited run theaters.

No clue if that is even an option for this project, but Alamo obviously has been flexible in at least one smaller market.

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## Pete

^

That's a 2nd location, not the first.

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## UrbanNebraska

True, first was way out in the burbs with 8 screens.  Proving the market may be important for them.

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## BG918

Who knows Eliot Nelson may be creating an all new urban cinema concept.  This wasn’t in the original renderings for Santa Fe Square.  I think it’s a good location though, draws people to the retail promenade (which conveniently connects to McNellies across 1st) and backs up to a parking garage.  It also forms a retail cluster around Frankfort Ave to build on the existing retailers like Phat Tire Bicycles & Fleet Feet at 2nd and the Boxyard at 3rd (also a Eliot Nelson/Casey Stowe venture).  There is also a coffee/brewpub called Fine Fermentations going in the vacant building at 4th & Frankfort.

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## Eric

> True, first was way out in the burbs with 8 screens.  Proving the market may be important for them.


I understand they are different, but there is a Warren out in the burbs (Bixby/BA area). Seems to be doing just fine. As the crow flies it's a solid 15 miles away. Closest first run is probably the Southroads AMC @ 41st & Yale.

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## BG918

> Closest first run is probably the Southroads AMC @ 41st & Yale.


Correct.  And Circle Cinema (art house) near TU at 1st & Lewis.  Midtown/downtown is a big potential unserved market, and anything unique downtown would draw from all over the metro.

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## Eric

> Correct.  And Circle Cinema (art house) near TU at 1st & Lewis.  Midtown/downtown is a big potential unserved market, and anything unique downtown would draw from all over the metro.


By no means did I intend to overlook Circle, because jewel of a theater, just didn't think that is what was intended by 1st run theater.

And I agree, a location in downtown Tulsa would likely be a better draw than say the location in K.C. There is a already a synergy of entertainment options in a really small area in the Brady (err uhh, whatever it is now) District.

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## Plutonic Panda

This project has broken ground:

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/a-...home-top-story

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## Swake

> This project has broken ground:
> 
> https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/a-...home-top-story


Here's a rendering of the site:

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