# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Tulsa & Suburbs >  Panasonic Battery Plant

## Plutonic Panda

Might as well have a thread dedicated to this even though it hasnt been decided Im remaining positive itll come to the Tulsa area. 

From Yahoo Business News:




> TOKYO (Reuters) - Japan's Panasonic Corp is looking to purchase land in the United States for a mega-factory to make a new type of electric vehicle (EV) battery for Tesla Inc, public broadcaster NHK reported on Friday.
> 
> Panasonic is looking at building the factory, to cost several billion dollars, in either Oklahoma or Kansas close to Texas, where Tesla is preparing a new EV plant, NHK reported. NHK gave no timeline for Panasonic's U.S. project.


- https://finance.yahoo.com/news/panas...232223340.html

TW linking this article:




> A Japan public broadcaster is reporting that electronics company Panasonic wants to buy land in Kansas or Oklahoma to construct a multibillion-dollar factory to supply Tesla with lithium-ion batteries.


- https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-an...a372648c9.html

If they want to have this factory close to Tesla then Oklahoma should have this with a slam dunk unless Kansas is offering stupid incentives. Oklahoma would be wise to start planning an I-45 extension to Tulsa and make that a promise in its discussions with Panasonic.

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## chssooner

> Might as well have a thread dedicated to this even though it hasn’t been decided I’m remaining positive it’ll come to the Tulsa area. 
> 
> From Yahoo Business News:
> 
> 
> 
> - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/panas...232223340.html
> 
> TW linking this article:
> ...


You mean work with Texas to plan that Extension, since it ends in Dallas? It's an almost equal amount to expand in Texas and in Oklahoma. I agree, but that would be an asinine amount of money to promise to spend.

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## Plutonic Panda

> You mean work with Texas to plan that Extension, since it ends in Dallas? It's an almost equal amount to expand in Texas and in Oklahoma. I agree, but that would be an asinine amount of money to promise to spend.


Texas is mostly up to date on interstate quality so all they would really need to do is slap an interstate shield on there. Oklahoma has some segments it could probably just designate but several others that need massive upgrades.

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## Dob Hooligan

https://www.kansascity.com/news/poli...258307028.html

@jc cougar linked to this story a couple weeks ago in another thread. I am inept about posting and linking. I hope it will work when clicked. 

It provides good info about the Kansas side of the effort. Plus some insight about the Oklahoma part.

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## Plutonic Panda

TLO rumor so take it how you will but theyre saying reports are Oklahoma has been chosen for the plant. Amazing news if so and props to Tulsa! Tulsa better brace itself to become a major boomtown or itll soon start seeing severe traffic congestion.

https://twitter.com/thelostogle/stat...prmVtAjRmD03OA

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## BoulderSooner

> TLO rumor so take it how you will but they’re saying reports are Oklahoma has been chosen for the plant. Amazing news if so and props to Tulsa! Tulsa better brace itself to become a major boomtown or it’ll soon start seeing severe traffic congestion.
> 
> https://twitter.com/thelostogle/stat...prmVtAjRmD03OA


it would be in pryor right?  like google and Canoo

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## HangryHippo

> it would be in pryor right?  like google and Canoo


Yes, at Mid-America if it chooses Oklahoma.

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## Plutonic Panda

> it would be in pryor right?  like google and Canoo


I believe so. Lots of growth and new freeways will be needed. Very exciting stuff if it happens.

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## PhiAlpha

> I believe so. Lots of growth and new freeways will be needed. Very exciting stuff if it happens.


pretty decent highway access to prior as it is. 412 and 69 are both divided 4 lane highways. I think 20 is as well.

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## formerly405Tulsan

Stitt holding a press conference at 1 today to announce a "major economic development opportunity". Hmm

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## Plutonic Panda

Press conference live now:

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## G.Walker

Ok, so seems like they are still in negotiation. Not sure if its Panasonic though. Nothing announced today, he is asking for passage of legislation for incentives to land said company.

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## Plutonic Panda

Yeah that was a whole lot of nothing lol not sure why this justified a press release I guess to drum up excitement.

According to Stitt Oklahoma is competing with 50 other states which is more than just Kansas.

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## OkiePoke

Delete

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## Plutonic Panda

^^ yes

According to Stitt he wants the financial incentive package passed this week as the company wants to get this thing going. He also states he is looking into ways to create more Mid America type industrial parks in north, south, and west Oklahoma.

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## Jake

lol

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## Plutonic Panda

> lol


If he’s really trying to do that then great. It seems like every other week I read about some massive automotive plant or production factory announcing a huge project. The more options they have to locate around the state the better. Oklahoma has missed out on too much already.

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## ChrisHayes

Enid, Lawton, and Ardmore all need vast industrial parks.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Enid, Lawton, and Ardmore all need vast industrial parks.


Ardmore seems to be building up to having one around the airport thanks to the tribes. 

Enid, Lawton, and even Woodward or Guymon would do well to get planning a nice industrial park. Those cities need some help.

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## LocoAko

> Yeah that was a whole lot of nothing lol not sure why this justified a press release I guess to drum up excitement.
> 
> According to Stitt Oklahoma is competing with 50 other states which is more than just Kansas.


Edit: Now that I've watched it, it seems clear this was meant to be a direct message to legislators meeting this week to pass these financial incentives and not much else. He pretty much explicitly said so.

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## Jake

> If he’s really trying to do that then great. It seems like every other week I read about some massive automotive plant or production factory announcing a huge project. The more options they have to locate around the state the better. Oklahoma has missed out on too much already.


Was "lol"ing at the lack of concrete announcement more than anything. Having more industrial park locations around the state would be great.

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## Anonymous.

This plant being built in OK would be a game changer. I really hope it would be W of OKC,

Obviously the state has tons of cheap, open land. However, W OK is especially bleak. Imagine that entire landscape being factories, solar farms, [more] wind farms, and pumpjacks. Make Oklahoma the _energy_ frontier.

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## shawnw

Couldn't he have just met with the legislature directly and then announced the deal when it was done?

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## PoliSciGuy

Sure would be neat if this and Canoo start a trend of Oklahoma embracing green technology to transition away from such an O&G-reliant economy. Between this and our latent wind and solar potential, with the right leadership that could be a real way forward for the state.

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## mugofbeer

> This plant being built in OK would be a game changer. I really hope it would be W of OKC,
> 
> Obviously the state has tons of cheap, open land. However, W OK is especially bleak. Imagine that entire landscape being factories, solar farms, [more] wind farms, and pumpjacks. Make Oklahoma the _energy_ frontier.


I could be wrong but I bet they want rail access.  I don't think the rail west of OKC is operational anymore.

I don't know much about this business but I think companies are looking for flat land, not much prep work, utilities already available, good highway access and rail access (in large cases like this).

Seems for El Reno, providing a few quarter sections along I-40 would be a good investment for the future of that suburb since there isn't a great deal of land meeting the above criteria elsewhere around OKC.

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## shawnw

I thought the going theory was for them to get the land Tulsa was previously offering to Telsa?

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## LocoAko

The proposed legislation for this afternoon's Joint Committee on Appropriations and Budget has finally been posted (<90 min before they meet). Summary: http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf...%20BILLSUM.PDF

If I'm understanding correctly, since this legislation is _clearly_ written with said "mystery" company in mind, they're expecting over 4,000 new jobs with qualified capital expenditures in excess of $3.606 billion dollars and total capital expenditures of at least $4.5 billion.

With the Canoo and Mid-America Industrial Park folks at today's press conference I have to assume that is the site that is already under consideration.

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## shawnw

So you're saying NOT Panasonic?

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## okcoolcoolcool

> Couldn't he have just met with the legislature directly and then announced the deal when it was done?


Knowing how Tesla negotiates with legislatures, the incentive deal is probably astronomical, so much so that some lawmakers have already expressed opposition. Stitt likely wants to nail his re-election campaign with a Tesla-adjacent blockbuster deal for the state so he's making sure people know who to blame if it doesn't come through.

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## Swake

> I thought the going theory was for them to get the land Tulsa was previously offering to Telsa?


No, the Panasonic site reportedly is next to the Canoo car factory site at Mid-America Park. Mid-America is south of Pryor and a few miles north of US-412. It has rail access and is about 15 miles from port access. There's actually a small port site on the Verdigris where US-412 crosses, five or six miles SW of the Tulsa Port of Catoosa.

The proposed Tesla site is south of US-412 near Inola and is very close to that small Verdigris port, just a couple of miles. About 10 miles west of Mid-America, closer to Tulsa itself.

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## BG918

> No, the Panasonic site reportedly is next to the Canoo car factory site at Mid-America Park. Mid-America is south of Pryor and a few miles north of US-412. It has rail access and is about 15 miles from port access. There's actually a small port site on the Verdigris where US-412 crosses, five or six miles SW of the Tulsa Port of Catoosa.
> 
> The proposed Tesla site is south of US-412 near Inola and is very close to that small Verdigris port, just a couple of miles. About 10 miles west of Mid-America, closer to Tulsa itself.


The Tesla site was inside Tulsa city limits south of 412 and east of the Creek Turnpike on property owned by the Robson family.  There is another large industrial site located closer to Inola on the Verdigris where there are plans to build a new river port called the Port of Inola.  This is where the Black Fox nuclear power station was supposed to be built (next to Sofidel's paper plant).

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## Plutonic Panda

I really wish the state would revisit the idea of building a nuke power plant in that area.

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## Swake

> The Tesla site was inside Tulsa city limits south of 412 and east of the Creek Turnpike on property owned by the Robson family.  There is another large industrial site located closer to Inola on the Verdigris where there are plans to build a new river port called the Port of Inola.  This is where the Black Fox nuclear power station was supposed to be built (next to Sofidel's paper plant).


My mistake, I thought it was the Black Fox site. They are only a few miles apart.

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## Swake

> I really wish the state would revisit the idea of building a nuke power plant in that area.


The state doesn't build power plants.

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## Plutonic Panda

> The state doesn't build power plants.


They should.

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## chssooner

> Couldn't he have just met with the legislature directly and then announced the deal when it was done?


Having a news conference moves the burden from him to legislators, in a very public manner.

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## Bunty

CNHI News take on the proposed project:

Governor, lawmakers work to reel in ‘humongous’ economic development project - Governor, lawmakers work to reel in ‘humongous’ economic development project

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## Bunty

> I really wish the state would revisit the idea of building a nuke power plant in that area.


I wouldn't want it, unless more efficient and safer ways have been advanced to produce nuclear energy.

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## ChrisHayes

> I wouldn't want it, unless more efficient and safer ways have been advanced to produce nuclear energy.


You're way behind the curve on this one. Modern nuclear power plants are nothing like those built decades ago. There is no logical excuse why the US shouldn't be building dozens, maybe many more, nuclear power plants. We're going to need a LOT more electrical generation if we want to have many millions of electric cars and especially if we want to electrify everything. The power isn't going to come from wind/solar.

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## BoulderSooner

> You're way behind the curve on this one. Modern nuclear power plants are nothing like those built decades ago. There is no logical excuse why the US shouldn't be building dozens, maybe many more, nuclear power plants. We're going to need a LOT more electrical generation if we want to have many millions of electric cars and especially if we want to electrify everything. The power isn't going to come from wind/solar.


this is all correct

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## baralheia

> I could be wrong but I bet they want rail access.  I don't think the rail west of OKC is operational anymore.
> 
> I don't know much about this business but I think companies are looking for flat land, not much prep work, utilities already available, good highway access and rail access (in large cases like this).
> 
> Seems for El Reno, providing a few quarter sections along I-40 would be a good investment for the future of that suburb since there isn't a great deal of land meeting the above criteria elsewhere around OKC.


The former Rock Island line that roughly parallels I-40 heading west out of town is actually active all the way to Erick, near the state line, though a small section between Bridgeport and Weatherford (about 15 miles) is out of service due to multiple washouts. Union Pacific operates the line from their yard just east of downtown west to El Reno, where the line intersects UP's main north-south corridor, and runs several trains a week.

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## Bunty

> You're way behind the curve on this one. Modern nuclear power plants are nothing like those built decades ago. There is no logical excuse why the US shouldn't be building dozens, maybe many more, nuclear power plants. We're going to need a LOT more electrical generation if we want to have many millions of electric cars and especially if we want to electrify everything. The power isn't going to come from wind/solar.


So, no wonder I wrote, "I wouldn't want it, unless more efficient and safer ways have been advanced to produce nuclear energy."

Rolls-Royce of UK said it can create modular mini Nuclear Reactors that could be transported on regular shipping trucks and assembled on site. Each one would be capable of powering 1 million homes each.  Sounds quite efficient to me.
https://www.reuters.com/business/bri...source=twitter

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## Swake

We are so close on fusion power, which would be largest advance since the internet, if not the wheel. Limitless clean power with water as the fuel. The Middle East would melt down from a lack of money.

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## catcherinthewry

> Modern nuclear power plants are nothing like those built decades ago.


Have they figured out how to shorten the half life of the radioactive spent fuel?

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## ChrisHayes

> Have they figured out how to shorten the half life of the radioactive spent fuel?


That, I don't know, but I've heard they can repurpose a lot of it

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## Jersey Boss

> Have they figured out how to shorten the half life of the radioactive spent fuel?


That is a great point that proponents of nuke plants need to have an answer for when advocating for this source.

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## mugofbeer

> They should.


Why?

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## mugofbeer

> We are so close on fusion power, which would be largest advance since the internet, if not the wheel. Limitless clean power with water as the fuel. The Middle East would melt down from a lack of money.


^^^^^^^

100%!

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## shartel_ave

> We are so close on fusion power, which would be largest advance since the internet, if not the wheel. Limitless clean power with water as the fuel. The Middle East would melt down from a lack of money.


could have had clean energy for everyone but this dude suddenly died and his technology was stolen.  Damn CIA and big oil

https://www.gaia.com/article/the-mys...er-powered-car

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## Plutonic Panda

> We are so close on fusion power, which would be largest advance since the internet, if not the wheel. Limitless clean power with water as the fuel. The Middle East would melt down from a lack of money.


What would be cool if OK could setup an experimental fusion reactor and work with TU to create a nuclear engineering program like the on they have at MIT in Boston. It would take about a decade and there’s no telling if fusion would become a reality by then. Set aside a site for another reactor if/when fusion becomes self sustaining and produces energy.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Why?


Because energy production shouldnt be for profit. It should socially funded by tax payers and ran with ensuring people having power being a human right in mind not something for profit. The lowest income group shouldnt have to pay for energy or water at all. Thats just my opinion of course.

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## Dustin

Sooooo Tesla service centers: BAD!  

Factory to produce batteries for said Teslas: A-OK.  

Makes total sense.

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## Plutonic Panda

^^^ one word 

Lobbying 

It’s because of the automobile dealers association and they’re claiming banning direct sales is for the people lol

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## Jeremy Martin

> Sooooo Tesla service centers: BAD!  
> 
> Factory to produce batteries for said Teslas: A-OK.  
> 
> Makes total sense.


Did I miss the uproar about Tesla Service Centers?

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## ComeOnBenjals!

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-an...home-top-story

*House OKs up to $698M economic incentive package*

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## Dustin

> Did I miss the uproar about Tesla Service Centers?


https://electrek.co/2022/04/12/tesla...cars-oklahoma/

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## chssooner

The author of the bill has already stated the current service facilities won't have to be shut down. It just reinforces that, like many other states, Oklahoma won't allow direct sales. Hell, in Texas, they have that huge factory, and won't be able to buy them. It isn't just an Oklahoma issue. 

I think it is dumb, but it isn't solely an Oklahoma problem. Connecticut has it worse than here, even.

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## Laramie

> The state doesn't build power plants.


True.

I believe PSO of Tulsa was the sole sponsor of the Black Fox Nuclear Power Plant near Inola, OK  before the development was abandoned in 1982.   The whole scenario of how that played showed glimpses of 'what was to come' of the Kerr McGee  plutonium chaos behind the Karen Gay Silkwood saga in Crescent, OK..  Big money and power has always been a theme when addressing safety concerns of workers.

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## ComeOnBenjals!

*State Senate OK's $698M economic Incentive bill to lure large manufacturing plant to state* - TulsaWorld

Should be complete on the incentive side... hopefully it's what they needed!

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## formerly405Tulsan

I read somewhere Kansas has over a billion in incentives. Would love to see a comparison. I also think the canoo facility would be priceless in all of this for Panasonic.

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## formerly405Tulsan

"Kansas State Representative John Carmichael told FOX23 that while he did not support an incentive package in his state, the legislature passed one in hopes of landing the company.

“We passed a package valued at 1.3 billion dollars. We were told that we had to get that passed before March because the company was going to make its decision before March. We were also told we had to move fast because we wanted to get our proposal passed and signed by the governor before the Oklahoma legislature came back into session,” Carmichael said.

Since then Carmichael says they have been left waiting.

“Then we heard nothing, nothing, nothing,” Carmichael said.



So good news I guess for us. https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-...BMCKDBUEWHK2E/

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## ChrisHayes

> "Kansas State Representative John Carmichael told FOX23 that while he did not support an incentive package in his state, the legislature passed one in hopes of landing the company.
> 
> “We passed a package valued at 1.3 billion dollars. We were told that we had to get that passed before March because the company was going to make its decision before March. We were also told we had to move fast because we wanted to get our proposal passed and signed by the governor before the Oklahoma legislature came back into session,” Carmichael said.
> 
> Since then Carmichael says they have been left waiting.
> 
> “Then we heard nothing, nothing, nothing,” Carmichael said.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know what to make of that. Over a billion dollars is very alluring, especially compared to what the Oklahoma State Legislature has passed and Stitt will sign into law. However, it's odd that they haven't heard anything. However, considering Stitt is going to sign it, he must know something we don't. At least that's my hope!

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## shawnw

They probably have to factor in the workforce availability and other factors

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## Jersey Boss

> I don't know what to make of that. Over a billion dollars is very alluring, especially compared to what the Oklahoma State Legislature has passed and Stitt will sign into law. However, it's odd that they haven't heard anything. However, considering Stitt is going to sign it, he must know something we don't. At least that's my hope!


I have no faith in a administration that can't even provide restaurants in state lodges without controversy.  The legislature should have approached this with extreme caution.

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## TheTravellers

> ...The legislature should have approached this with extreme caution.


Some Reps did, mine included (from NonDoc):

Rep. Collin Walke (D-OKC) suggested that lawmakers’ constituents may find the price tag of the new incentive program to be unpalatable.

“How am I supposed to go back to my constituents and say, ‘I gave away three-quarters of a billion dollars to a company that I don’t even know their name?’ Is that responsible?”

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## BoulderSooner

> Some Reps did, mine included (from NonDoc):
> 
> Rep. Collin Walke (D-OKC) suggested that lawmakers’ constituents may find the price tag of the new incentive program to be unpalatable.
> 
> “How am I supposed to go back to my constituents and say, ‘I gave away three-quarters of a billion dollars to a company that I don’t even know their name?’ Is that responsible?”


they didn't   they approved a framework   that can be used more then once ..

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## PoliSciGuy

So not just one but multiple companies we don't know the name of. That doesn't really refute his concern or need for caution.

I'm always leery of these sort of massive giveaways to billion dollar companies, especially given Wisconsin's experience with FoxConn

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## Plutonic Panda

No the intent of this package is just one company that is more than likely Panasonic. I don’t understand the issue with the name. Many times on this website Pete has said he has intel on certain projects but isn’t at Liberty to throw a name out there.

The bills passed by the legislature will generate the hundreds of millions for Panasonic and later on when another opportunity presents itself it can be used again. Oklahoma is just a state that loves to piss and whine about what these other states have and why we can’t have it here but when it comes time to do what is needed all the sudden it’s too expensive. Yet, Kansas, was more than willing to give more than 1 billion. If that doesn’t tell you how big this thing and if a state like Kansas can do it but Oklahoma can’t, I’ve lost hope with this place.

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## 5alive

> ...they approved a framework   that can be used more then once ..


I spoke with my rep this morning...he told me about the framework that has been setup for future use. He also said he was feeling good about Oklahoma getting this company...but he added anything could still happen.

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## king183

> No the intent of this package is just one company that is more than likely Panasonic. I dont understand the issue with the name. Many times on this website Pete has said he has intel on certain projects but isnt at Liberty to throw a name out there.
> 
> The bills passed by the legislature will generate the hundreds of millions for Panasonic and later on when another opportunity presents itself it can be used again. Oklahoma is just a state that loves to piss and whine about what these other states have and why we cant have it here but when it comes time to do what is needed all the sudden its too expensive. Yet, Kansas, was more than willing to give more than 1 billion. If that doesnt tell you how big this thing and if a state like Kansas can do it but Oklahoma cant, Ive lost hope with this place.


What in the world are you talking about? You acknowledge the bill passed the legislature. It's going to be signed by the governor. So it's happening! Then you immediately whine about how, for the state, "when it comes time to do what is needed all of a sudden it's too expensive." Huh?! What is the state not doing in this instance that you want it to do?

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## Plutonic Panda

> What in the world are you talking about? You acknowledge the bill passed the legislature. It's going to be signed by the governor. So it's happening! Then you immediately whine about how, for the state, "when it comes time to do what is needed all of a sudden it's too expensive." Huh?! What is the state not doing in this instance that you want it to do?


I’m not whining at all. I’m point out how all of those who are whining about this and how Oklahoma has been. I’m well aware of where the bill stands and I’m very happy to see this. Hopefully this leads to Oklahoma getting more major relocations in the future and can actually become a real competitive state. This is a great thing for Oklahoma if we get it. Keep in mind Kansas offered much more.

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## LocoAko

> What in the world are you talking about? You acknowledge the bill passed the legislature. It's going to be signed by the governor. So it's happening! Then you immediately whine about how, for the state, "when it comes time to do what is needed all of a sudden it's too expensive." Huh?! What is the state not doing in this instance that you want it to do?


I think all judgment should be reserved until a decision is made (and who knows if we'll ever get the reasoning or details). It is interesting that the legislature's incentives are hundreds of millions of dollars less than those offered by Kansas, and from what I understand wasn't exactly what the Governor requested even though the additional safety rails in the bill are probably wise. I have to assume, or hope, given how late in the game we are that they knew what Panasonic was after and they crafted the offer as such vs. lowballing them by that much. There's probably more to it than simply the incentive total dollar amount. While my understanding is also that said bill could be technically applied to any company, there's no denying that there were very specific dollar amounts in there for a reason. Plenty of legislators spoke out against the bill for reasons of IMO varying validity, but they still passed by overwhelming majorities in both chambers.

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## Swake

> I’m not whining at all. I’m point out how all of those who are whining about this and how Oklahoma has been. I’m well aware of where the bill stands and I’m very happy to see this. Hopefully this leads to Oklahoma getting more major relocations in the future and can actually become a real competitive state. This is a great thing for Oklahoma if we get it. Keep in mind Kansas offered much more.


No Kansas did not offer much more. Oklahoma has a second local piece in the TIFF that Kansas does not.

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## Plutonic Panda

> No Kansas did not offer much more. Oklahoma has a second local piece in the TIFF that Kansas does not.


Where are you seeing that? All I saw was 730 million vs. the Kansas 1.2 billion dollar offer.

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## HangryHippo

> No the intent of this package is just one company that is more than likely Panasonic. I don’t understand the issue with the name. Many times on this website Pete has said he has intel on certain projects but isn’t at Liberty to throw a name out there.
> 
> The bills passed by the legislature will generate the hundreds of millions for Panasonic and later on when another opportunity presents itself it can be used again. Oklahoma is just a state that loves to piss and whine about what these other states have and why we can’t have it here but when it comes time to do what is needed all the sudden it’s too expensive. Yet, Kansas, was more than willing to give more than 1 billion. If that doesn’t tell you how big this thing and if a state like Kansas can do it but Oklahoma can’t, I’ve lost hope with this place.


I was surprised by the female representatives quote that she was against the bill because her constituents dont want Oklahoma to change. Im trying to find the article where I read it, but some representatives in this state truly dont want us competing or advancing. Luckily, at least while this is the way it is, the majority supported this.

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## Jersey Boss

There have been many instances since taking office that the Governor has wasted millions of dollars. Stitt has acted like the funds in the treasury are for his use with no accountability.
Until this changes I have no faith in his judgement.
Why does anybody think this will be different? Other than Panasonic is not being investigated by the SEC.

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## chssooner

> There have been many instances since taking office that the Governor has wasted millions of dollars. Stitt has acted like the funds in the treasury are for his use with no accountability.
> Until this changes I have no faith in his judgement.
> Why does anybody think this will be different? Other than Panasonic is not being investigated by the SEC.


Panasonic is one of the top companies globally. They are a sure thing. Canoo is iffy, but this would be a very sure thing.

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## Swake

> Where are you seeing that? All I saw was 730 million vs. the Kansas 1.2 billion dollar offer.


https://tulsaworld.com/business/loca...79ccfe36b.html

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## Plutonic Panda

> https://tulsaworld.com/business/loca...79ccfe36b.html


I’m not seeing where you said Oklahoma is offering more than the 700 million dollar figure.

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## Plutonic Panda

It’s actually 613 million dollars and I thought Canoo already received money?

https://www.news9.com/story/6262a905...d-act-into-law

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## David

> I’m not seeing where you said Oklahoma is offering more than the 700 million dollar figure.


That article is about a $300 million TIF district which is presumably on top of the $700 million from the state.

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## Bunty

> I was surprised by the female representative’s quote that she was against the bill because “her constituents don’t want Oklahoma to change.” I’m trying to find the article where I read it, but some representatives in this state truly don’t want us competing or advancing. Luckily, at least while this is the way it is, the majority supported this.


Right.  Many Oklahomans in rural counties don’t want Oklahoma to change but the majority of urban Oklahomans don't want to be held back as the world moves on in the 21st century.  Oklahoma has changed a lot for the better since 2016 without much help from rural Oklahomans.

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## Jersey Boss

> Have they figured out how to shorten the half life of the radioactive spent fuel?


Finland might have this figured out. Interesting article.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/finla...b09c32edf7be5a

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## catcherinthewry

> Finland might have this figured out. Interesting article.
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/finla...b09c32edf7be5a


No, they think they have designed a better storage system, but there is no way to reduce the half life of radioactive material of which there are 250k tons currently stored around the world and will be a threat for hundreds of thousands of years.

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## shawnw

> The $698 million would be paid for up front out of state savings of about $2 billion, Thompson said.


https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-an...home-top-story

----------


## gopokes88

> No, they think they have designed a better storage system, but there is no way to reduce the half life of radioactive material of which there are 250k tons currently stored around the world and will be a threat for hundreds of thousands of years.


It can fit on 2 football fields. It's also in-cased in glass and concrete.

Nuclear fears are unscientific nonsense.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> It can fit on 2 football fields. It's also in-cased in glass and concrete.
> 
> Nuclear fears are unscientific nonsense.


Yep.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> It can fit on 2 football fields.


True, but..

"In fact, the U.S. nuclear industry has produced roughly 64,000 metric tons (one metric ton equals 1.1 U.S. tons) of radioactive used fuel rods in total or, in the words of NEI, enough "to cover a football field about seven yards deep (edit. It is now 10 yards deep)."* (Of course, actually concentrating rods this way would set off a nuclear chain reaction.)"*




> Nuclear fears are unscientific nonsense.


That would be news to the scientific community. You should enlighten them with your knowledge.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...energy-source/

I know this article is 13 years old, but no solutions that are fool proof for storing spent nuclear fuel for 250,000 yrs have been found since it was written.

"A 98-foot-wide, two-mile-long ditch with steep walls 33 feet deep that bristles with magnets and radar reflectors will stand for millennia as a warning to future humans not to trifle with what is hidden inside the Waste Isolation Pilot Project (WIPP) outside Carlsbad, N.M. Paired with 48 stone or concrete 105-ton markers, etched with warnings in seven languages ranging from English to Navajo as well as human faces contorted into expressions of horror, the massive installation is meant to stand for at least 10,000 years—twice as long as the Egyptian pyramids have survived.
But the plutonium ensconced in the salt mine at the center of this installation will be lethal to humans for at least 25 times that long—even once the salt walls ooze inward to entomb the legacy of American atomic weapons. And WIPP will only hold a fraction, though a more deadly fraction, of the amount of nuclear waste the U.S. plans to store at Yucca Mountain in Nevada or some other site designated to replace it as a permanent repository for the residue of nuclear reactions."

----------


## gopokes88

> True, but..
> 
> "In fact, the U.S. nuclear industry has produced roughly 64,000 metric tons (one metric ton equals 1.1 U.S. tons) of radioactive used fuel rods in total or, in the words of NEI, enough "to cover a football field about seven yards deep (edit. It is now 10 yards deep)."* (Of course, actually concentrating rods this way would set off a nuclear chain reaction.)"*
> 
> 
> 
> That would be news to the scientific community. You should enlighten them with your knowledge.
> 
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...energy-source/
> ...


The scientific community is largely unconcerned with nuclear waste. They know how to store it safely and effectively. Perhaps your confusing scientific fact with political activism? The point isn't that we should store it on 2 football fields. The point is there is a tiny tiny amount of nuclear waste, the space it takes up is minimal, and there's never been a serious radiation leak or issue.. Compare that to the environmental costs to a landfill. 

Yeah tons of humans are going to stumble upon WIPP. 
https://www.google.com/maps/place/WO...4d-103.7932281

Yep those inert obsidian cubes are super dangerous and easily accessible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72kOy0wdDjM&t=3s

----------


## catcherinthewry

> The scientific community is largely unconcerned with nuclear waste. They know how to store it safely and effectively. Perhaps your confusing scientific fact with political activism?


Perhaps you are confusing your opinion for fact.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN18M2OP

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission greatly underestimated the risk and potential contamination of a nuclear waste fire triggered by a quake or a planned attack, experts writing in the journal “Science” said.

In 2014, the NRC found the chance of a disaster caused by leaving radioactive waste in storage pools was too remote to warrant the cost of moving it to safer dry casks.

An earthquake that could trigger a radiation leak was likely less than once every 10 million years, hardly justifying the cost of about $50 million per reactor to transfer spent fuel, the NRC said in that report.

An accident at Japan’s Fukushima nuclear plant in 2011 was triggered by a tsunami after an earthquake.

“We think the NRC gamed their analysis essentially to get the answer they want,” said Edwin Lyman, a senior scientist at the Union of Concerned Scientists and one of the authors of the article in “Science,” a magazine published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

The collapse of a decommissioned tunnel at a plutonium-handling facility in Hanford, Washington, this month was a reminder of the potential risk of storing radioactive material.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> The point is there is a tiny tiny amount of nuclear waste, the space it takes up is minimal, and there's never been a serious radiation leak or issue.


80 years down 249,920 to go. What could go wrong?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

If you argue against nuclear energy you might as well be arguing that man induced climate change isn’t real. You are denying science.

https://www.nei.org/fundamentals/nuclear-waste

----------


## Plutonic Panda

There’s article after article showing the benefits of nuclear power and off setting the fear mongering https://world-nuclear.org/nuclear-es...o-with-it.aspx

----------


## catch22

Amazing how much money has been spent on that WIPP program/facility. It almost would have been cheaper to just launch it all into space on a collision course with the sun. I am kidding. We have put enough junk in space.

----------


## jn1780

> If you argue against nuclear energy you might as well be arguing that man induced climate change isn’t real. You are denying science.
> 
> https://www.nei.org/fundamentals/nuclear-waste


But the other green alternatives make us feel good because, you don't see the pollution and waste because they are made in factories in China.

At least China is building those nuclear plants to power their factories. CO2 emissions may actually come down if they can swap the coal for nuclear.

----------


## mugofbeer

We should all hope the fact scientists are getting very close to nuclear fusion power generation will make the new power issue irrelevant.

----------


## gopokes88

> But the other green alternatives make us feel good because, you don't see the pollution and waste because they are made in factories in China.
> 
> At least China is building those nuclear plants to power their factories. CO2 emissions may actually come down if they can swap the coal for nuclear.


Don't forget the child slave labor for rare earth mining.

----------


## shawnw

I guess we don't want Panasonic anymore

https://twitter.com/ThriceSavage/sta...95314690465794




> In a wild statement from 10 #okleg Republicans that will detract from important budget/veto happenings, Rep. Jim Olsen et al say they don't want #Panasonic to select #Oklahoma because "they have called for advocacy and activism specifically in support of the LGBTQ+ community."

----------


## onthestrip

> I guess we don't want Panasonic anymore
> 
> https://twitter.com/ThriceSavage/sta...95314690465794


We really do send some insane people to represent us. They better be prepared to leave Oklahoma behind in economic opportunities if they want to keep out any company they consider woke or exercises ESG, which probably covers a large majority of Fortune 100 companies.

----------


## chssooner

> I guess we don't want Panasonic anymore
> 
> https://twitter.com/ThriceSavage/sta...95314690465794


They NEVER said they don't want Panasonic to come to Oklahoma. All they said was that the company has, in the past, gone against views most Oklahomans have (not me or you, but most in this state do have) and they hope they won't be super active in promoting said views. But they never said they don't want them in the state, in any way, whatsoever. It is so frustrating how annoying some of these click-bait posts can be. They have already passed the tax incentives, and are just tying to get re-elected. Panasonic won't give a single crap about this.

Granted, it is stupid of them to put this out. But it neither bashes Panasonic nor tells them to stay away.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Exactly, the hope is that by attracting these types of companies we'll have more left-leaning citizens that vote out these idiots.


From your lips to Gods ears. These morons never cease to amaze.

----------


## shartel_ave

> We should all hope the fact scientists are getting very close to nuclear fusion power generation will make the new power issue irrelevant.


do you mean cold fusion?

----------


## mugofbeer

> do you mean cold fusion?


They are not the same thing exactly. Cold fusion would, hypothetically, take place at room temperature while the nuclear fusion processes that is being accomplished now is done at millions of degrees.

----------


## Bunty

> We really do send some insane people to represent us. They better be prepared to leave Oklahoma behind in economic opportunities if they want to keep out any company they consider woke or exercises ESG, which probably covers a large majority of Fortune 100 companies.


If enough sane as well as smart people are willing to run for state office and then enough sane people willing to vote for them, it would sure help Oklahoma to advance.  Some of the insane ones in office at the state capitol next year want to ban sales of birth control to women unless they can prove they are married.  Then there is this article that had better be taken seriously:

Investment group warns that Oklahoma abortion laws could hurt business recruitment and economic development. However, Oklahoma lawmakers shrug off such concerns, saying that if there’s an economic price to pay for protecting unborn life, Oklahomans are willing to pay it.
https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/in...21c727151.html

So, if Oklahoma loses the Panasonic plant, then the above likely explains why.

Contrary to what Gov. Stitt thinks, the majority of Oklahomans want abortion well regulated, not banned and out of control as a result.

----------


## dankrutka

> They NEVER said they don't want Panasonic to come to Oklahoma. All they said was that the company has, in the past, gone against views most Oklahomans have (not me or you, but most in this state do have) and they hope they won't be super active in promoting said views.


65% of Oklahomans support gay marriage. It’s important to remember that the legislature is more conservative and bigoted than the state as a whole. Unfortunately, many Oklahomans assume these legislators actually represent the state, which has fostered a learned helplessness that the state can’t support LGBTQ+ rights.

----------


## Rover

> 65% of Oklahomans support gay marriage. Its important to remember that the legislature is more conservative and bigoted than the state as a whole. Unfortunately, many Oklahomans assume these legislators actually represent the state, which has fostered a learned helplessness that the state cant support LGBTQ+ rights.


But our politicians ARE the face of the state. They have learned very well how to control without representing the majority.  They are good at that and propagandizing.

----------


## dankrutka

> But our politicians ARE the face of the state. They have learned very well how to control without representing the majority.  They are good at that and propagandizing.


Yes, that is absolutely true, but you may have missed the reason for my comment. The poster stated that the majority of Oklahomans (not their reps) opposed LGBTQ rights. There is no question that Oklahoma does far too little to support the LGBTQ+ community, but it can result in a learned helplessness when  attribute the homophobia and transphobia of the legislature to all Oklahomans. I think Oklahomans are at least a little bit better than the state "reps." It erases queer Oklahomans and all those people who support them. That was my only point.

----------


## jccouger

Is this the Panasonic plant?

https://www.koco.com/article/oklahom...mpany/40239994

----------


## G.Walker

No, the Panasonic investment is close to $1 Billion

----------


## Jake

The Kansas governor is apparently "very confident" they'll land the Panasonic plant.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Oklahoma is offering less than Kansas in incentives AND has legislators saying they aren’t interested in the “woke nonsense” that company would bring. I’d probably choose Kansas too.

----------


## G.Walker

its for RareEarth, will be in Stillwater. Good for Oklahoma, but seems like Governor Stitt is a proponent of bringing more business to Tulsa, OSU, and Stillwater.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Oklahoma is offering less than Kansas in incentives AND has legislators saying they aren’t interested in the “woke nonsense” that company would bring. I’d probably choose Kansas too.


Pretty damn disgusting IMO.

----------


## sgt. pepper

> its for RareEarth, will be in Stillwater. Good for Oklahoma, but seems like Governor Stitt is a proponent of bringing more business to Tulsa, OSU, and Stillwater.


He is a Tulsa business man isn't he?

----------


## progressiveboy

Also, Kansas has more people with Bachelor's Degree (33%) versus Oklahoma (26.1%).  The information can be found on Google. To me this says Kansas values education more than Oklahoma. Plus, the sad part is Oklahoma has about 1 million more in population. Just my opinion, but my perception is Kansas values education more than Oklahoma and it shows Kansas has more ambition and drive with much less population. Still hoping Oklahoma wins on this economic front. It remains to be seen??

----------


## king183

If Oklahoma loses the Panasonic plant, it will be because Panasonic has decided it can get more money in incentives from Kansas. Further, with the Canoo deal looking increasingly tenuous, that might have changed Panasonics calculus on being near potential EV partners. We will not lose Panasonic because we have fewer college graduates than Kansas. Additionally, if you dont think Kansas has crazy legislators who say the exact same crap the OK legislators cited above say, you arent paying attention. We arent going to lose because a no name, irrelevant legislator (or six) say something stupid.

----------


## shavethewhales

^With such a large population difference, I don't think you can infer as much with those percentages. Plus you have to think about how much of OK's pop is rural vs. Kansas. Barely anyone lives in rural Kansas but OK still has a lot. 

We've certainly given them plenty of reasons not to come here, but we do have the population, education base, and transport facilities to make the plant work. Kansas government can be pretty bone headed and far right too. The decision will come down to some sort of internal measurement of the value of the respective incentive plans + site infrastructure.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Also, Kansas has more people with Bachelor's Degree (33%) versus Oklahoma (26.1%).  The information can be found on Google. To me this says Kansas values education more than Oklahoma. Plus, the sad part is Oklahoma has about 1 million more in population. Just my opinion, but my perception is Kansas values education more than Oklahoma and it shows Kansas has more ambition and drive with much less population. Still hoping Oklahoma wins on this economic front. It remains to be seen??


your post  means that Oklahoma has more college grads then Kansas ...

----------


## king183

> your post  means that Oklahoma has more college grads then Kansas ...


Not sure what you’re reading in his post, but it clearly indicates Kansas has more college graduates THAN Oklahoma, which, by the way, happens to be true.

----------


## gopokes88

> Also, Kansas has more people with Bachelor's Degree (33%) versus Oklahoma (26.1%).  The information can be found on Google. To me this says Kansas values education more than Oklahoma. Plus, the sad part is Oklahoma has about 1 million more in population. Just my opinion, but my perception is Kansas values education more than Oklahoma and it shows Kansas has more ambition and drive with much less population. Still hoping Oklahoma wins on this economic front. It remains to be seen??


goodness gracious what world do you live in. i mean holy sh*t that's a galaxy brain objectively false take.

----------


## gopokes88

> Not sure what you’re reading in his post, but it clearly indicates Kansas has more college graduates THAN Oklahoma, which, by the way, happens to be true.


explain how 33% of 2.94MM is bigger than 26% of 3.96MM. I'll wait.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> explain how 33% of 2.94MM is bigger than 26% of 3.96MM. I'll wait.


26% of 3.96 is over a million people 

33% of 2.94 is under a million people .. 


quick math says that 

over a million is more than under a million ..

----------


## BoulderSooner

> explain how 33% of 2.94MM is bigger than 26% of 3.96MM. I'll wait.


2.9 is the Kansas pop   .396 is the oklahoma pop

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

26% of 3960000 = 0.26  3960000 = 1029600
33% of 2940000 = 0.33  2940000 = 970200

But also shouldn't we be comparing population over 25 since children can't attain a degree?

That puts us at a pop of 686k and 26% with degree. Kansas is at 652k with 34%.

Census data on the subject:
https://data.census.gov/cedsci/table...dePreview=true

----------


## king183

> explain how 33% of 2.94MM is bigger than 26% of 3.96MM. I'll wait.


You’re right. I apologize for misreading BoulderSooner: I was taking PB’s post to refer to proportion of college graduates rather than absolute numbers and applied only that context to BS’s post. I did that because most debates of this type focus on proportion of college graduates rather than absolute number. 

Anyway, my point (opinion) stands that the number of college graduates will not be a determining factor whether we get the Panasonic plant over Kansas.

----------


## BG918

> Youre right. I apologize for misreading BoulderSooner: I was taking PBs post to refer to proportion of college graduates rather than absolute numbers and applied only that context to BSs post. I did that because most debates of this type focus on proportion of college graduates rather than absolute number. 
> 
> Anyway, my point (opinion) stands that the number of college graduates will not be a determining factor whether we get the Panasonic plant over Kansas.


How many people with a college degree are building batteries?  Honest question.  

I think it comes down to three things: 1) the incentive deal from each state, 2) access to labor and 3) the proposed site, and water/utilities associated with it.  Not sure how Kansas could top what Mid-America has with their GRDA connection for water and power rates.

----------


## king183

> How many people with a college degree are building batteries?  Honest question.  
> 
> I think it comes down to three things: 1) the incentive deal from each state, 2) access to labor and 3) the proposed site, and water/utilities associated with it.  Not sure how Kansas could top what Mid-America has with their GRDA connection for water and power rates.


From my understanding of the issue, after speaking with those knowledgeable, the people building the batteries—and the vast majority of the employed workforce—will not be (need to be) college graduates. They will be skilled laborers with a high school/technical school education. The engineers will, of course, have them, but I suspect many of those will be imported from out of state.

I think your three factors for what will determine who gets the plant are spot on.

----------


## progressiveboy

> its for RareEarth, will be in Stillwater. Good for Oklahoma, but seems like Governor Stitt is a proponent of bringing more business to Tulsa, OSU, and Stillwater.


 Perhaps the OKC Chamber of Commerce along with the mayor of OKC can step up to the plate and recruit companies to OKC area. I do know sometimes for incentives it must go through the State of Oklahoma. Is the OKC Chamber of Commerce very proactive in luring companies?

----------


## progressiveboy

Here is a link regarding  Kansas which includes college degree. According this this link below, Kansas has 43.1% college educated  people. Even higher than I previous saw via Google. Overall Kansas is ranked #23 in education. 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/kansas

----------


## Swake

> Here is a link regarding  Kansas which includes college degree. According this this link below, Kansas has 43.1% college educated  people. Even higher than I previous saw via Google. Overall Kansas is ranked #23 in education. 
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/kansas


I would trust the census more than a listicle.

Kansas 33.9% vs Oklahoma 26.1%

Kansas statistically as a state is very skewed because it's largest metro area has its core city in another state. Kansas has just under half the population of the KC Metro and has most of the wealthy suburbs while Missouri gets the relatively poorer core city and the more middle class suburbs. Makes Kansas look much better than it really is.

----------


## G.Walker

It depends on how you look at it. Rural Oklahoma pulls down those numbers for Oklahoma. There is a higher percentage of people with college degrees in the Oklahoma City & Tulsa metro areas. With the plant possibly being located near Tulsa, I don't think finding educated employees is the issue.

----------


## mugofbeer

Maybe l missed something specific to this plant but except for limited positions, what need is there for a college degree to manufacture battaries? I would think all of the design and engineering is done elsewhere?

----------


## gopokes88

There isn't. Just the same handful of posters being relentlessly negative due to their bias'

----------


## Bunty

> its for RareEarth, will be in Stillwater. Good for Oklahoma, but seems like Governor Stitt is a proponent of bringing more business to Tulsa, OSU, and Stillwater.


But a manufacturing concern that is only expected to hire 100 workers is no big deal. Surely long gone are the days when Stillwater could attract manufacturing that ultimately employed over 1000 people.

----------


## jccouger

Looks like Kansas was chosen

----------


## Pete

Panasonic to build EV battery plant for Tesla in U.S. state of Kansas

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Of course

----------


## HangryHippo

lol. Top 10!

----------


## Midtowner

With the state of education in Oklahoma, why would anyone locate a business here when there are 48 higher ranking states?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> With the state of education in Oklahoma, why would anyone locate a business here when there are 48 higher ranking states?


You’re not wrong. But it still hurts to see Kansas get this over Oklahoma but then I’m biased being from OKC. This just sucks all the way around.

----------


## Pete

It's pretty discouraging that one big company chooses the state to your immediate south (Tesla/Texas) and then another that wants to be close by skips over you and goes to a state immediately north (Panasonic/Kansas).

If nothing else, it sends a strong signal that Oklahoma is not competitive and we need to make serious changes.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Yikes. What a miss.

----------


## Jake

Landing Panasonic would have been huge for the state and transformational for the city of Tulsa so I'm not surprised in the slightest that the state absolutely blew it.

----------


## Pete

This is a very good time to study the reasons why we keep getting passed over.

Everyone has opinions, but it would be nice to talk directly to the decision-makers at Panasonic and find out why they preferred Kansas.  This should not be led by the governor or his cronies.  I'd like to see a bi-partisan group established so we can find out the real truth, whatever it may be.


We were never going to get Tesla, but this is different and we need to learn from it.

----------


## Jake

> This is a very good time to study the reasons why we keep getting passed over.
> 
> Everyone has opinions, but it would be nice to talk directly to the decision-makers at Panasonic and find out why they preferred Kansas.  This should happen and not be led by the governor or one of his cronies.  I'd like to see a bi-partisan group established so we can find out the real truth, whatever it may be.
> 
> 
> We were never going to get Tesla, but this is different and we need to learn from it.


Especially when it has been noted that the location Oklahoma offered was situated really well and was an ideal place for such a plant. If that _still_ can't get you this project then obviously there's something terribly wrong (I think most of us know what.)

----------


## Pete

> Especially when it has been noted that the location Oklahoma offered was situated really well and was an ideal place for such a plant. If that _still_ can't get you this project then obviously there's something terribly wrong (I think most of us know what.)


Panasonic specifically stated they wanted to be near the new Texas Telsa facility.

And yet they skipped us and opted for someplace farther away.  Alarm bells are ringing.

----------


## king183

> Panasonic specifically stated they wanted to be near the new Texas Telsa facility.
> 
> And yet they skipped us and opted for someplace farther away.  Alarm bells are ringing.


I’m worried the alarm bells are on silent for those who need to hear them most. The last few months has not been a good display of competence from Oklahoma government.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

If only we put Panasonic on the Tulsa driller!

----------


## BG918

> I hope losing Panasonic will mean that a lot of incumbent state legislators get voted out in Nov., including Gov. Stitt. They are NOT doing a good job of leading the state.  Interesting that a former legislator, Cal Hobson, wrote in the July Observer, "And as I have said for months, Panasonic ain't coming and most folks wish Canoo wouldn't."


Not going to happen, they will all be reelected and nothing will change.  Too many stupid people in this state, it makes the educated ones question whether they should move somewhere else.

----------


## shartel_ave

> Not going to happen, they will all be reelected and nothing will change.  Too many stupid people in this state, it makes the educated ones question whether they should move somewhere else.


I love OKC and the state of Oklahoma along with the people that live here and very happy that I moved here but I do not like the state government but I could say that about the federal government and most other state governments.

I'm no fan of democrats or republicans both sides are funded by massive corporate money.  

More attention needs to be focused on overturning citizens united.

----------


## TheTravellers

> Not going to happen, they will all be reelected and nothing will change.  Too many stupid people in this state, it makes the educated ones question whether they should move somewhere else.


Guarantee you that the majority of Oklahomans have/had no idea about the Panasonic plant and if they did, they wouldn't care, so yeah, all of the above is correct, really sadly.

----------


## chssooner

You guys are forgetting that, aside from the OKC and Tulsa areas, the rest of the state wants OK to suck. And our legislators have rigged it to where the part of the state with 10% of the population have 50% or more of the power at the state level. 

So yeah. There is nothing we can do. People in Guymon don't care if the state grows, same with people in Atoka. Yet they have an unjust amount of representation, based on population. 

You won't hear a damn thing from state legislators, considering some of them wanted them to pick Kansas because they were pro-choice.  Quit thinking this will spark change.

----------


## gopokes88

> This is a very good time to study the reasons why we keep getting passed over.
> 
> Everyone has opinions, but it would be nice to talk directly to the decision-makers at Panasonic and find out why they preferred Kansas.  This should not be led by the governor or his cronies.  I'd like to see a bi-partisan group established so we can find out the real truth, whatever it may be.
> 
> 
> We were never going to get Tesla, but this is different and we need to learn from it.


Kansas had a 6 month head start and we were used as leverage.

----------


## Pete

At least we have good leadership and positive momentum in OKC.

We are clearly not competitive at the state level, but OKC can continue to move forward and do its own thing.  It's the only reason we continue to grow while the rest of the state languishes and it all started with the first MAPS.

Good thing as a city we didn't hitch our wagon to the fortunes of the state.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Hey Boulder Sooner, what do you think?

----------


## Pete

> Kansas had a 6 month head start and we were used as leverage.


Then why weren't we in on this sooner?

It's a failure and we need to learn from it otherwise as a state we'll continue missing out.

----------


## LocoAko

Top 10 state, eh? Yet another failure to deliver from the Governor's office. Yet I'm sure people will just eat up the rhetoric despite zero evidence of success at recruiting businesses (or anything else).

----------


## Bunty

> At least we have good leadership and positive momentum in OKC.
> 
> We are clearly not competitive at the state level, but OKC can continue to move forward and do its own thing.  It's the only reason we continue to grow while the rest of the state languishes and it all started with the first MAPS.
> 
> Good thing as a city we didn't hitch our wagon to the fortunes of the state.


That is a good way to put it without diving too deep into politics.

----------


## Jake

If we play our cards right we can land another Milo's sweet tea factory.

----------


## KHutch66

> If we play our cards right we can land another Milo's sweet tea factory.


Jake, I love the positivity! lol

----------


## chssooner

> At least we have good leadership and positive momentum in OKC.
> 
> We are clearly not competitive at the state level, but OKC can continue to move forward and do its own thing.  It's the only reason we continue to grow while the rest of the state languishes and it all started with the first MAPS.
> 
> Good thing as a city we didn't hitch our wagon to the fortunes of the state.


I wish this mattered. As more people come to OKC, you actually have less of the population represented at the state level. All but 500 people could move from places like Duncan, Durant, Atoka, etc, and they wouldn't lose a vote. But as those people move to OKC, OKC doesn't gain anything. Just more people losing a say at the state level.

----------


## shavethewhales

> Panasonic specifically stated they wanted to be near the new Texas Telsa facility.
> 
> And yet they skipped us and opted for someplace farther away.  Alarm bells are ringing.


Oklahoma, well Tulsa specifically, is losing potential businesses to TX, AR, and now KS. We are turning into a black hole. Best we can get is maybe a small production facility here and there. The offices go to Bentonville, KC, or Dallas. Anything worth being excited for is picked off. 

I've said elsewhere that I doubt this came down to subsidies/tax breaks. I think OK was competitive there and would have given them anything. There's other issues going on here and I'm too tired at this point to list them all out. OK as a whole can't cut it, and hope for the future is diming. 

Good for OKC that you guys have some critical mass and momentum, but Tulsa is going to languish in the future. We can barely keep our regional hub status with NWA and OKC growing so much.

----------


## Pete

I've never posted this before, but I don't think many people in OKC are clued into the mindset of small-town Oklahoma, which a lot of legislators represent.


I spent a couple of days in Carnegie when I was researching the Farmer's Bank story.  I went and sat in the local donut shop (one of the few places the locals have to congregate) and even after talking to a bunch of people who were all pretty friendly and forthcoming (they were universally withering about the then bank president), when I handed my card to a few of the men and asked them to call me if they thought of anything additional to share, one of them saw my last name (it's Polish) and asked me in a dark and accusatory tone, "Where are you from"?  I had already told them I was from OKC doing an investigative report on the bank, so there was no mistaking what he was really asking.

All the others in the group clearly wanted to know the answer to this ridiculous question. To put this in perspective, I am fair-skinned with blue eyes and sandy hair.  And if I have any accent at all, it comes from living in Oklahoma.

I could not have been more shocked or disturbed.  I can't imagine what someone with dark coloring puts up with in these small towns.


Many of these people have been brainwashed into thinking any sort of outsider is evil and hell-bent on making everyone speak a foreign language while they systematically destroy Christianity, freedom, and America as a whole.

Do you think the guys in that donut shop want a Panasonic plant in Oklahoma?  Do you think their state rep runs on a platform of economic development through bringing in foreign or coastal companies?  You can bet the message is almost completely fear-based and aimed at all these 'others' (gay, feminists, brown, foreigners and big-city elites) who are plotting to destroy them all.

----------


## ComeOnBenjals!

> Oklahoma, well Tulsa specifically, is losing potential businesses to TX, AR, and now KS. We are turning into a black hole. Best we can get is maybe a small production facility here and there. The offices go to Bentonville, KC, or Dallas. Anything worth being excited for is picked off. 
> 
> I've said elsewhere that I doubt this came down to subsidies/tax breaks. I think OK was competitive there and would have given them anything. There's other issues going on here and I'm too tired at this point to list them all out. OK as a whole can't cut it, and hope for the future is diming. 
> 
> Good for OKC that you guys have some critical mass and momentum, but Tulsa is going to languish in the future. We can barely keep our regional hub status with NWA and OKC growing so much.


Bleak. Worst I've felt about Tulsa and the state's prospects in a long time. I thought Tulsa was on the brink of something big happening for once, another strikeout. Not sure how long it is till I start seriously looking to move to another state. OKC at least has some consistent momentum.

----------


## Bunty

> If we play our cards right we can land another Milo's sweet tea factory.


Whether meant to be serious or not, that's largely how Oklahoma grows.  From within.  So, we got some of the greatest casinos in the world, along with the greatest state medical marijuana program in the country.  Kansas and Texas have nothing like any of that.   I don't think politicians at the State Capitol led the way to make it all happen.  It was the people.

If we want more advanced jobs, such as having to do with high tech, the state needs to do a lot better job of supporting education.  In doing so, maybe Oklahomans will find it easier to come up with innovative business ideas to present to Shark Tank.

----------


## Anonymous.

Sigh, and of course it is presumed to be going really close to KC. 

This thread is toting the political line, but the answer to all of this is younger people not voting. It is honestly mind blowing how many people in Oklahoma do not vote, especially young people. But this is exactly why the system exists in its current form.

----------


## jccouger

At least our good ole boy network of car dealerships will be as strong as ever

----------


## chssooner

> I've never posted this before, but I don't think many people in OKC are clued into the mindset of small-town Oklahoma, which a lot of legislators represent.
> 
> 
> I spent a couple of days in Carnegie when I was researching the Farmer's Bank story.  I went and sat in the local donut shop (one of the few places the locals have to congregate) and even after talking to a bunch of people who were all pretty friendly and forthcoming (they were universally withering about the then bank president), when I handed my card to a few of the men and asked them to call me if they thought of anything additional to share, one of them saw my last name (it's Polish) and asked me in a dark and accusatory tone, "Where are you from"?  I had already told them I was from OKC doing an investigative report on the bank, so there was no mistaking what he was really asking.
> 
> All the others in the group clearly wanted to know the answer to this ridiculous question. To put this in perspective, I am fair-skinned with blue eyes and sandy hair.  And if I have any accent at all, it comes from living in Oklahoma.
> 
> I could not have been more shocked or disturbed.  I can't imagine what someone with dark coloring puts up with in these small towns.
> 
> ...


1,000,000,000,000%. The ignorants in small-town Oklahoma have a lot of power because of how the districts are drawn in this state.

----------


## shartel_ave

> Sigh, and of course it is presumed to be going really close to KC. 
> 
> This thread is toting the political line, but the answer to all of this is younger people not voting. It is honestly mind blowing how many people in Oklahoma do not vote, especially young people. But this is exactly why the system exists in its current form.


according to this site 18-29 year olds vote the same as 65+

18-44 years old makes up 46.6% of the vote.  Doesn't surprise me that the largest percentage is 45 - 65 year olds.

https://stacker.com/oklahoma/29-mill...ing-population

----------


## Bunty

> Sigh, and of course it is presumed to be going really close to KC. 
> 
> This thread is toting the political line, but the answer to all of this is younger people not voting. It is honestly mind blowing how many people in Oklahoma do not vote, especially young people. But this is exactly why the system exists in its current form.


If legalization of rec marijuana is on the ballot in Nov., that will bring out young people to vote to counteract the rural vote, likely opposed to it.

----------


## Midtowner

I don't know how or why it happened, but I have a statewide practice, so you'll find me at small town diners several times a month. What you generally overhear is local residents repeating and trading conspiracy theories as if they were fact. Last I checked, the big thingw as that the Chinese are buying all of our land and that they own all of the windmills going in near Tishomingo. 

They used to get the news from the Oklahoman, so you'd generally expect them to follow whatever the editorials said. Nowadays, newspaper use has declined, and even the Oklahoman had some standards, and as small town newspapers closed, more of them have turned to the internet for their information. And somehow, after all of those years of accepting the "news" as factual, they are not equipped to consider whether the news is non-factual.  And then they got on social media. 

Pete hit the nail on the head though. Most of what they're consuming is conspiracy theories re how OKC/Tulsa are out to get them or don't care that someone else is victimizing them--and that's sometimes true. It's true that foreigners are buying up a lot of land and paying ridiculous prices for it, and the AG/legislator/law enforcement have only made a show of going after strawman license holders. It's true that OKC several years ago drained a lake responsible for a substantial bit of the economic activity in Canton. It's true that OKC's long-term plans involve taking water out of Sardis. So there's at least a kernel of truth to their paranoia. 

And unfortunately, that's kind of how states work, right? It's necessary for most urban areas to be supported by activities happening in rural areas. Electrical generation and water are things we're reliant on small town folks for. They pay the cost, i.e., ugly windmills everywhere, noise pollution, ruined vistas, lower lake levels, we get the benefits. 

It doesn't occur to them that the urban areas subsidize rural electrification, rural broadband services, their streets, highways, and bridges, their schools and access to higher education. And that's really why our State Legislature doesn't do what it's supposed to do. There's no give and take, only I want 100% of the things and I will take 100% of the things, and there's no compromise. 

What would make more sense is to remove all of the OKC/Tulsa seats from the House and draw new maps in the Senate, representing only OKC/Tulsa and let them have to compromise.

----------


## catcherinthewry

Multiple people with knowledge of those negotiations told NonDoc this afternoon that the company has chosen the Kansas site for its newest manufacturing facility. However, those same people said Panasonic has been considering whether to build a second battery plant, which could ultimately be located in Pryor to take advantage of a nearly $700 million rebate incentive created by the Oklahoma Legislature earlier this year.

https://nondoc.com/2022/07/13/report...cond%20factory

----------


## Pete

^

That's nice to hear but it still leaves a huge question:  Why did they prefer Kansas over Oklahoma which is closer to the Tesla plant?

----------


## Pete

> Multiple people with knowledge of those negotiations told NonDoc this afternoon that the company has chosen the Kansas site for its newest manufacturing facility. However, those same people said Panasonic has been considering whether to build a second battery plant, which could ultimately be located in Pryor to take advantage of a nearly $700 million rebate incentive created by the Oklahoma Legislature earlier this year.
> 
> https://nondoc.com/2022/07/13/report...cond%20factory


From that article:




> “Oklahoma is not totally out of it,” said an individual closely connected to the state’s recruitment efforts on the condition of anonymity. “The electric vehicle market is only growing.”
> 
> Senate Appropriations and Budget Chairman Roger Thompson (R-Okemah) said representatives of the Oklahoma Department of Commerce have told him Panasonic is considering the construction of a second battery plant.


and




> “Gov. Stitt is confident in his plan to attract companies to Oklahoma,” Atchison said. “This is not the end of the governor’s strategy to make Oklahoma a top 10 state for business, and Oklahomans would be wise to not count us out just yet.”



These are all people with huge political motivation to spin this in the most positive light possible.

----------


## G.Walker

Its not that complicated. Oklahoma offered $698 million in incentives, Kansas offered over $1 billion. 

Money talks...I could think of 300 million reasons why they chose Kansas over Oklahoma.

----------


## Pete

> Its not that complicated. Oklahoma offered $698 million in incentives, Kansas offered or $1 billion. 
> 
> Money talks...


You have no idea if that was the primary reason.

----------


## G.Walker

> You have no idea if that was the primary reason.


I know I don't, but $300 million is a good start, that is a lot of money.

----------


## Bunty

CNBC came out with its 2022 rankings for top states for business.  Oklahoma ranks 38.  Last year it was ranked 32.  So, Stitt is slipping and still has a long way to go for top ten.  Kansas for 2022 is ranked 21.

----------


## Jake

We'll get the next huge plant for sure. Just like we did after the Tesla thing.

----------


## Pete

> I know I don't, but $300 million is a good start, that is a lot of money.


If it was that simple, why did we try and recruit them at all?

All I'm saying is this is a good opportunity to find out what it's going to take to be competitive because we clearly aren't now.

----------


## shartel_ave

> You have no idea if that was the primary reason.


He's probably right about the larger incentive package being the reason

https://www.cjonline.com/story/news/...a/10045344002/

----------


## G.Walker

Seems to me that Kansas had their incentive package in place for sometime and had already presented it to Panasonic. Oklahoma had to play catch up, and came up with our package last minute and it was rushed. And with our package, there still wasn't a clear indication on where that money was gonna come from. 

I think if we had more time, we could have been more competitive and offered a better package.

----------


## Pete

> He's probably right about the larger incentive package being the reason
> 
> https://www.cjonline.com/story/news/...a/10045344002/


It still begs a bunch of questions that need answers:  Why were we so late?  Why did we bother if we knew we couldn't match their package?  Why did we put together a package that wasn't competitive?  What are we going to do differently to have a fighting chance of winning these competitions in the future?

----------


## BG918

> We'll get the next huge plant for sure. Just like we did after the Tesla thing.


Oklahoma is clearly on the radar or it wouldn't be in the running for these developments.

----------


## Pete

> Oklahoma is clearly on the radar or it wouldn't be in the running for these developments.


Do you remember seeing what Elon Musk wrote (which was later leaked) about meeting with Oklahoma reps?

He basically said he was just paying them a courtesy.  And of course the subtext was that it was an opportunity to use OK as leverage which is exactly what he did.

For all we know, we were never in serious contention for this facility either.

----------


## Jake

Looking back, the press conference "non-announcement" from Stitt is even funnier in context. I went from thinking that was the announcement to learning we lost out to De Soto, Kansas in three months. 

Life comes at you fast.

----------


## shartel_ave

> Do remember seeing what Elon Musk wrote (which was later leaked) about meeting with Oklahoma reps?
> 
> He basically said he was just paying them a courtesy.  And of course the subtext was that it was an opportunity to use OK as leverage which is exactly what he did.
> 
> For all we know, we were never in serious contention for this facility either.


that is a very real possibility 

that may be the reason kansas offered more than twice the dollar amount in incentives

1.2 billion is 502 million more than Oklahoma offered

----------


## TheTravellers

> Sigh, and of course it is presumed to be going really close to KC. 
> 
> This thread is toting the political line, but the answer to all of this is younger people not voting. It is honestly mind blowing how many people in Oklahoma do not vote, especially young people. But this is exactly why the system exists in its current form.


OK has had a super-low voter turnout for years, and for the primaries that just happened, we had a whole ~25% of the registered voters in the state vote - completely pathetic statistic.

----------


## TheTravellers

> CNBC came out with its 2022 rankings for top states for business.  Oklahoma ranks 38.  Last year it was ranked 32.  So, Stitt is slipping and still has a long way to go for top ten.  Kansas for 2022 is ranked 21.


Another couple of slots and we'll be in the top 10 states worst for business.  Did Stitt ever say verbatim he wanted to be in the top 10 *best* lists or just top 10.....?  :Smile:

----------


## king183

That NonDoc article is low key depressing funny. The quotes are all from people who sound like they've been told by their parents if you're a good boy, I'll get you ice cream next month. They're being told what they want to hear and repeating it to us. Let's be blunt: our government got embarrassed in this situation and they're in the beginning stages of grief: denial.

----------


## TU 'cane

Hooooo baby, this has been something sitting back and reading everyone's comments this afternoon. Everyone's in meltdown mode and wants to leave Oklahoma now. Whether on this site or elsewhere from the general responses I'm seeing. And you know what? Maybe some of you should because you sound absolutely miserable being here and if it'll make you happier, I say more power to you and best of luck. 

*-Kansas offered $1.2 billion to OK's < $1 billion (someone posted above OK's proposal was only $502 million).* 
a) At what point do we delineate what are corporate handouts and b) what amount do we say is "enough?" c) why are some corporate handouts acceptable but others aren't? Do some of you wish OK would have gifted Panasonic over $1 billion from the taxpayers? Do you have a proposal for where that money would have come from? If so, please run for office and get off the Internet forums. 

*-Kansas City, which will be the closest metropolitan area from my understanding and has over 2.5 million people within its CSA (I use CSA because Pryor isn't within metro Tulsa and I'm assuming this plant won't quite be in metro K.C. But please correct me if I'm wrong). Tulsa has 1.1 million.* 
a) At what point do we simply acknowledge that bigger cities generally win out in these competitions because more people =  a larger potential pool? b) At what point do we realize there are thousands of other cities and towns that lost out here besides Tulsa and OK? c) At what point do we realize it was interesting that OK was even considered (even if as a pawn) and look at that as a win for the future?

*-The people railing against the rural counties and people are literally proving the point that many of the rural people supposedly hold (according to many of the comments posted these last few pages themselves).* 
a) Rural people are people too. They are our families, friends, etc. If you look at them and treat them like monsters, expect the same back. b) Quit blaming them and using them as your convenient scapegoat. c) To the people making arguments about how our government is structured, it's operating exactly as intended. Just because one city or area has more people than another, doesn't mean that one gets to dominate the other. 

*-There was a comment(s) suggesting KS had a 6 month head start. Is this true? If so, that turns the conversation considerably and needs to be taken with a little more seriousness.*
a) There is a good question that others are asking "why wasn't OK part of the conversation during that time?" or something similar. Unless someone knows what happened behind closed doors, everything is just speculation. It's an entirely possible scenario Panasonic wanted this site the entire time and didn't let anyone else know until something leaked (on accident or otherwise). Meaning, OK and other states may not have had any idea whatsoever this was a thing. Who are we to blame then? 


So now let me join in the fray here and say I'm disappointed. Everyone is. You think Stitt isn't? You think the chamber of commerce isn't? Do you think they aren't reflecting on what else could have been done? I bet they are, no one wants to assume that though because of certain lenses they put over their eyes. 
But only time will tell if this was for the best or not. You never know. Keep in mind that with things like this comes other consequences (some that a few of you on here may like or not be bothered by, but that doesn't speak for everyone): increased traffic, increased property values, increased housing demand (single family will be the most sought after, which I thought was a no-no for an urban development forum), etc. 

Take a breath, walk away from the computer screen and contact your legislator and let them know that you'd like to talk about the Panasonic deal in person or in more detail with them. I'm guessing 99% of you haven't done that or won't as it requires less effort to find scapegoats and put on our political sunglasses.

----------


## Pete

> So now let me join in the fray here and say I'm disappointed. Everyone is. You think Stitt isn't? You think the chamber of commerce isn't? Do you think they aren't reflecting on what else could have been done? I bet they are, no one wants to assume that though because of certain lenses they put over their eyes.


I doubt anyone here thinks Stitt isn't disappointed, but that is hardly the point.

What can we learn from this?  What changes do we need to make?  How do we move forward?

When something doesn't go right, you can't possibly expect the people directly involved to provide an objective evaluation.  And that has nothing to do with "political sunglasses".

----------


## Celebrator

^100%

----------


## TU 'cane

> I doubt anyone here thinks Stitt isn't disappointed, but that is hardly the point.
> 
> What can we learn from this?  What changes do we need to make?  How do we move forward?
> 
> When something doesn't go right, you can't possibly expect the people directly involved to provide an objective evaluation.  And that has nothing to do with "political sunglasses".





> ^100%


I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe our personal politics don't get in the way, at least a little: 




> I doubt anyone here thinks Stitt isn't disappointed, but that is hardly the point.
> 
> What can we learn from this?  What changes do we need to make?  How do we move forward?
> 
> When something doesn't go right, you can't possibly expect the people directly involved to provide an objective evaluation.  And that has nothing to do with "political sunglasses".





> This is a very good time to study the reasons why we keep getting passed over.
> 
> Everyone has opinions, but it would be nice to talk directly to the decision-makers at Panasonic and find out why they preferred Kansas.  This should not be led by the governor or his cronies.  I'd like to see a bi-partisan group established so we can find out the real truth, whatever it may be.
> 
> 
> We were never going to get Tesla, but this is different and we need to learn from it.





> Not going to happen, they will all be reelected and nothing will change.  Too many stupid people in this state, it makes the educated ones question whether they should move somewhere else.





> I love OKC and the state of Oklahoma along with the people that live here and very happy that I moved here but I do not like the state government but I could say that about the federal government and most other state governments.
> 
> I'm no fan of democrats or republicans both sides are funded by massive corporate money.  
> 
> More attention needs to be focused on overturning citizens united.





> You guys are forgetting that, aside from the OKC and Tulsa areas, the rest of the state wants OK to suck. And our legislators have rigged it to where the part of the state with 10% of the population have 50% or more of the power at the state level. 
> 
> So yeah. There is nothing we can do. People in Guymon don't care if the state grows, same with people in Atoka. Yet they have an unjust amount of representation, based on population. 
> 
> You won't hear a damn thing from state legislators, considering some of them wanted them to pick Kansas because they were pro-choice.  Quit thinking this will spark change.





> Top 10 state, eh? Yet another failure to deliver from the Governor's office. Yet I'm sure people will just eat up the rhetoric despite zero evidence of success at recruiting businesses (or anything else).





> Sigh, and of course it is presumed to be going really close to KC. 
> 
> This thread is toting the political line, but the answer to all of this is younger people not voting. It is honestly mind blowing how many people in Oklahoma do not vote, especially young people. But this is exactly why the system exists in its current form.


I decided to stop before going another page because my point is beyond proven. 
You (Pete) made a great post (#144, I think) that is mostly encouraging and the mindset all of us need to have: WTF happened and what can we do to avoid or put ourselves in a better position for the next one? Dang, we missed these last two, but let's go for a third and try smarter, harder, etc. all around. 
Some of you will no doubt come back to the political aspect as the comments above prove unequivocally. And while there is an element there that can't be ignored, we need to remember one important thing: these companies couldn't care less about politics as a whole. They'll grandstand a little here and there but remember that most of them will gladly put certain profile pics and colors on their social media accounts during certain days or months in some countries while not for others. 
They play games and don't really care too much about Bible thumping rednecks as the comments above are laced with when reading between the lines. They care about bottom lines and handouts. KS is probably cheaper because there's less there than here and KS also doubled our offer. 

What if it's as simple as that? If it is, then my questions in my original post need answering: what are the definitions and where do we draw the line for corporate handouts? Make no mistake, that's what won this at the end of the day and if I had to guess, Panasonic set themselves up to "win" long term while the politicians in KS are holding up victory signs. 
I want good jobs here in OK as well. There probably isn't one person on this forum that doesn't.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> We'll get the next huge plant for sure. Just like we did after the Tesla thing.


You can't be serious comparing a product manufacturing company to a company that isn't manufacturing anything yet.

----------


## Pete

> You can't be serious comparing a product manufacturing company to a company that isn't manufacturing anything yet.


I think you missed the sarcasm.

----------


## Jake

Major corporations and organizations that deal with them absolutely look at politics and the optics/ramifications that stem from them. To pretend otherwise is foolishness.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> OK has had a super-low voter turnout for years, and for the primaries that just happened, we had a whole ~25% of the registered voters in the state vote - completely pathetic statistic.


Districts have been gerrymandered to the point that the legislators pick their voters instead of voters picking the legislators. Why vote when the outcome is preordained? Not every district is like that but more than one will have only one candidate in November.

----------


## chssooner

> Major corporations and organizations that deal with them absolutely look at politics and the optics/ramifications that stem from them. To pretend otherwise is foolishness.


If it was all about politics, Texas would get less than us. Money matters a LOT! Like, a crap-ton. To pretend otherwise is foolishness.

----------


## PaddyShack

I think we won out here, I am glad our tax dollars are not wrapped up in one company... I would rather see OK spend those package dollars on education reform, criminal justice reform, mental health reform, etc. If we diverted all of those "bring business to OK" (for lack of a better term) dollars towards our own infrastructure, then I guarantee we would see an influx of businesses.

I say the same thing for the national level. If we were divert just half of the US defense budget to infrastructure and education, then we easily might solve a lot of the issues we have, which in turn positions us better in the world where we might not have to spend those defense dollars!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> You have no idea if that was the primary reason.


How would it not be? Businesses are in business to make money. Surely they at bare minimum factored this variable in.

----------


## TU 'cane

> Major corporations and organizations that deal with them absolutely look at politics and the optics/ramifications that stem from them. To pretend otherwise is foolishness.


Some do, sure. Not all do. And it's usually more along economic reasons than social.
Funny how all of the sudden corporations are our friends and look out for us as bastions of social progress to the point we're willing to shell out $1.2 billion to them. 


Look everyone, for fearing risk of being banned I'll slow down on my responses here. And please know that I'm really not "trying" to defend anything or anyone in particular here as much as I'm trying to provide other points of views and variables that may have played a larger factor than the ones being discussed. Again, I'm just as disappointed as everyone else here.

----------


## Pete

All anyone is saying is that this is a good opportunity to understand why we failed.

We can all opine about politics and money but we don't know for sure and we'll never know if we don't have some sort of independent and trustworthy evaluation.

And I'd say that regardless of the party in power.  We all want improvement but we first have to figure out what that even means.

----------


## chssooner

> You have no idea if that was the primary reason.


As a business owner, if someone is willing to give you  roughly 40% more of something for the same output, you take it. Panasonic isn't some bastion of progressivism, wanting to placate socially-conscious people. They are out to make the most and spend the least to do it.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas are closely aligned in state politics. We are no more embarrassing than the others.

Small town people in Carnegie are the same as small town people in Texas, Wyoming or Ohio. Work; fornicate; intoxicate; go to the diner; be suspicious of outsiders.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> All anyone is saying is that this is a good opportunity to understand why we failed.
> 
> We can all opine about politics and money but we don't know for sure and we'll never know if we don't have some sort of independent and trustworthy evaluation.
> 
> And I'd say that regardless of the party in power.  We all want improvement but we first have to figure out what that even means.


Agreed but unfortunately given the political climate in Oklahoma I don’t think this will be chalked up to anything close to a meaningful discussion.

----------


## ChrisHayes

> I think we won out here, I am glad our tax dollars are not wrapped up in one company... I would rather see OK spend those package dollars on education reform, criminal justice reform, mental health reform, etc. If we diverted all of those "bring business to OK" (for lack of a better term) dollars towards our own infrastructure, then I guarantee we would see an influx of businesses.
> 
> I say the same thing for the national level. If we were divert just half of the US defense budget to infrastructure and education, then we easily might solve a lot of the issues we have, which in turn positions us better in the world where we might not have to spend those defense dollars!


How much money would Panasonic and it's spin off companies brought in over the years and decades? This is something that aggravates me. Everyone see $X and they can't grasp that that there would be money being brought in for years or decades to come. Bernie Sanders went on the senate floor today crying about giving chip manufacturers 50 billion to invest in the US. Nevermind the fact that we're paying, literally and figuratively, for not having much of a chip manufacturing presence in the US, and the fact that these companies would bring billions of economic development to the US. The shortsightedness is mind boggling to me.

----------


## ChrisHayes

In all honesty, I was thinking it would probably go to Kansas. Simply because our incentive package was smaller than what Kansas was offering. A big L for the state because of short sighted politicians.

----------


## Jake

Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas may all be similar politically but one has consistently lagged behind in education at all levels and that directly impacts the labor force and influences the type of companies that are willing to move/relocate there.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Because I am old, I have to mention that the GM plant was going to put us in the auto manufacturing industry big time when it opened around 1979. And tax issue or not, they left after 25 years. The upside, IMO, is that Tinker wound up with the facility and the largest employer in Oklahoma was enhanced by the transaction.

Oklahoma City wound up in second place to Indianapolis when we tried to get the American Airlines maintenance facility in 1993-ish. The facility was ultimately not built out at anywhere near the scale promised, and Oklahoma City was motivated to become the MAPS capitol of the world.

----------


## BG918

> Because I am old, I have to mention that the GM plant was going to put us in the auto manufacturing industry big time when it opened around 1979. And tax issue or not, they left after 25 years. The upside, IMO, is that Tinker wound up with the facility and the largest employer in Oklahoma was enhanced by the transaction.
> 
> Oklahoma City wound up in second place to Indianapolis when we tried to get the American Airlines maintenance facility in 1993-ish. The facility was ultimately not built out at anywhere near the scale promised, and Oklahoma City was motivated to become the MAPS capitol of the world.


It was United Airlines and absolutely was a driver behind the original MAPS.  

Don’t get mad get better

----------


## PoliSciGuy

Hard to get too mad on missing out on something that could be the next FoxConn or Solyndra or any other publicly white elephant. Take those funds and invest in infrastructure and education, especially in the metros, and draw businesses in by being a competitive and modern market, not with bags of taxpayer money.

----------


## TU 'cane

> All anyone is saying is that this is a good opportunity to understand why we failed.
> 
> We can all opine about politics and money but we don't know for sure and we'll never know if we don't have some sort of independent and trustworthy evaluation.
> 
> And I'd say that regardless of the party in power.  We all want improvement but we first have to figure out what that even means.


We agree on these points. 




> Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas are closely aligned in state politics. We are no more embarrassing than the others.
> 
> Small town people in Carnegie are the same as small town people in Texas, Wyoming or Ohio. Work; fornicate; intoxicate; go to the diner; be suspicious of outsiders.


These are very true points. 




> How much money would Panasonic and it's spin off companies brought in over the years and decades? This is something that aggravates me. Everyone see $X and they can't grasp that that there would be money being brought in for years or decades to come. Bernie Sanders went on the senate floor today crying about giving chip manufacturers 50 billion to invest in the US. Nevermind the fact that we're paying, literally and figuratively, for not having much of a chip manufacturing presence in the US, and the fact that these companies would bring billions of economic development to the US. The shortsightedness is mind boggling to me.


Definitely good points to consider but we don't have a crystal ball. Does anyone know where we can find all of the details from both packages? I'd like to compare the financials, guarantees, etc. vs. what Panasonic was projecting to bring in locally over the next 20 or so years.

----------


## progressiveboy

I think this will be somewhat of a psychological blow for Oklahoma as their ego has been bruised! It will be interesting how Oklahoma proceeds forward, and if it will continue the status quo or begin to realize that if the State is going to compete long term, then it will need to change modes into the 21st century. That includes putting value on education, improve it's business climate and vote for the best interest of the State.

----------


## chssooner

Texas education is not great, even if they throw a ton of money at it. That latter part is important. They have a lot of money. Kansas gave 40% than Oklahoma could.

----------


## ABryant

We can invest all this cash. As a state we refuse to invest cash. My lowly opinion is spend this. Spend more to educate our populace. I mean large amounts of scholarships.

----------


## Laramie

Oklahoma's emphasis needs to be on Education--long-term plans, can we stay focused.   

Why are places like Austin (UT) Tesla and now a Samsung $17 billion chip plant planned for '24; Dallas (North Texas State, UT Arlington, SMU-TCU) and Kansas City, MO (Kansas, Kansas State) luring the jobs away from Oklahoma.   Higher Education is one among many of the pieces to this puzzle. 

This isn't something you can fix overnight.  It all stems back to 'Quality of Life and Money.'   Our two largest metros have moved in that direction since MAPS and VISION 2025.   State and city leaders have got work in tandem to take advantage of OKC-TUL combo potential.  Also another snall piece--it would have helped if Stitt had worked with the tribes, the damaged relationship he did to the tribes is irreparable. 

We are not going to get the big billion $ 'high tech cyber' companies.   Again, Oklahoma focus needs to be more pro-active in education especially at state colleges & universities level. 

While we figure it out--the window of opportunity continue to close.

----------


## April in the Plaza

> How much money would Panasonic and it's spin off companies brought in over the years and decades? This is something that aggravates me. Everyone see $X and they can't grasp that that there would be money being brought in for years or decades to come. *Bernie Sanders went on the senate floor today crying about giving chip manufacturers 50 billion to invest in the US.* Nevermind the fact that we're paying, literally and figuratively, for not having much of a chip manufacturing presence in the US, and the fact that these companies would bring billions of economic development to the US. The shortsightedness is mind boggling to me.


I'm usually against most corporate subsidies, but the United States is going to be royally screwed if China invades Taiwan and cuts off our access to TSMC's semiconductors (used in all kinds of tech, smart phones, military hardware, etc.). If it costs $50B+ to secure a meaningful supply of domestic semiconductors, we should do it. But Congress is going to Congress I suppose.

----------


## David

50 billion on a national level is great investment for jumpstarting domestic semiconductor production, and it'll be a serious shame if that legislation does not pass.

----------


## Pete

Semiconductors are vital to almost every product and business these days.

We're seen the strong effect of constrained production over the last couple of years, and it's beyond the control of the U.S. as we produce only about 12% of the global market, down from 37% just 20 years ago.

----------


## John1744

Companies like this are rare and we should be doing nearly anything to get them. My buddy lives in Pryor and what Google has done for that area is amazing. They’re investing in the schools more than ever because Google needs/wants smart talented well paid people even if it’s just for a data center. Which as these people make more money they want higher end stores and businesses eventually and the whole area continues to develop. We need more of that.

----------


## Pete

Here is the press release from Panasonic.

Note they specifically mentioned the skilled Kansas workforce (although I realize they are not going to come out and say they wanted more money).

----------


## gopokes88

> Do you remember seeing what Elon Musk wrote (which was later leaked) about meeting with Oklahoma reps?
> 
> He basically said he was just paying them a courtesy.  And of course the subtext was that it was an opportunity to use OK as leverage which is exactly what he did.
> 
> For all we know, we were never in serious contention for this facility either.


We werent. 

But Musk was legitimately impressed too.  Said so at the site meeting. You arent getting it, but we are very very impressed.

----------


## OKC1987

It looks like the final incentive package from the state of Kansas was about $829 million. (There may also be additional local incentives)

This is a great article that goes pretty in-depth regarding the entire process for landing the deal. 

https://kansasreflector.com/2022/07/...cturing-plant/

A few quotes from the article:

“Panasonic’s rejection of Kansas’ first offer for the plant inspired the Kelly administration and the Kansas Legislature to piece together a unique portfolio of incentives labeled APEX, or Attracting Powerful Economic Expansion. It gave the state flexibility to dangle *a maximum of $1.3 billion in tax and other financial incentives* to major employers thinking of locating in Kansas.

*Negotiations with Panasonic resulted in an $829.2 million state government incentive package* featuring investment tax credits, payroll rebates, training and education aid, relocation funding, and construction sales tax exemptions. Those details were formally approved Wednesday by the State Finance Council after a closed-door briefing involving legislative leaders and the governor.”

“The project was made possible through APEX legislation that led to an agreement under which Kansas pays Panasonic a 12.5% investment tax credit on expenditures for the building and equipment. That means Panasonic will receive $500 million over five years in state tax credits. The length of payment period for that credit was a point of negotiation between Panasonic and the state Department of Commerce.

Another piece of APEX enabled Kansas to offer Panasonic $234 million in payroll rebates — a groundbreaking incentive tool in Kansas. Under this concept, Kansas pays Panasonic 10% of the company’s total payroll in Kansas for five years. This is a more aggressive instrument than the state’s existing PEAK incentive, which rebates state withholding taxes to economic development projects.”

I thought this incentive was particularly interesting:

“The company is in line for the state’s standard sales tax exemption, which could amount to $60.2 million. The state pledged $25 million for workforce education and training programs and *$10 million to support relocation of workers to Kansas.* The workforce training money would be available for five years, while *the relocation fund is a new feature of Kansas’ economic development portfolio. Both are needed because the Kansas City metropolitan area doesn’t include enough people to fulfill Panasonic’s labor demands.*”


The Kansas City Star article also cites $829 million as the final amount from the state (the article also mentions an “expected” local property-tax incentive from De Soto). 
https://www.kansascity.com/news/poli...263445783.html

----------


## Pete

Re-reading that Panasonic release, this struck me:




> “We appreciate Kansas’s dedication to sustainability and its commitment to and growth in the clean and renewable energy space.”


Could it be that Oklahoma is so tied up in fossil fuels that companies built around renewal energy question the state's ongoing commitment to their industry?

Just something to think about.

----------


## gopokes88

> Then why weren't we in on this sooner?
> 
> It's a failure and we need to learn from it otherwise as a state we'll continue missing out.


Because they called Kansas first. 

These deals come down to hilariously small things that are often out of the states control. 

The GE oil and gas center, which was a massive win but the oil market didnt cooperate. It came down to a GE official was in the same suite as some Okc O&G CEOs at OUs bowl game. We were called first, Texas was brought in late for leverage and we landed it.

----------


## Pete

> Because they called Kansas first.


Begs another question:  Why?


This sounds more and more like the Tesla thing where we make a very late play to try and win even after it's pretty clear they preferred another neighboring state.


Is this what our economic development efforts amount to?  Trying to horn in on deals already destined for bordering states...  Being used as a bargaining chip and never landing the deal and probably not having a legitimate shot?

----------


## Thomas Vu

Putting stock into anything Elon says, another risky venture.

----------


## dcsooner

> Because they called Kansas first. 
> 
> These deals come down to hilariously small things that are often out of the states control. 
> 
> The GE oil and gas center, which was a massive win but the oil market didn’t cooperate. It came down to a GE official was in the same suite as some Okc O&G CEOs at OU’s bowl game. We were called first, Texas was brought in late for leverage and we landed it.


Ever notice that almost everything Oklahoma "wins" never pans out long term? Auto, Printing, GE etc?

----------


## Dob Hooligan

I think we need to take that Panasonic money and jump into semiconductors. We have land, water and money. Let's get in front on this national imperative

----------


## gopokes88

> Begs another question:  Why?
> 
> 
> This sounds more and more like the Tesla thing where we make a very late play to try and win even after it's pretty clear they preferred another neighboring state.
> 
> 
> Is this what our economic development efforts amount to?  Trying to horn in on deals already destined for bordering states...  Being used as a bargaining chip and never landing the deal and probably not having a legitimate shot?


I have a friend who works in this type of business. There's an entire career path dedicated to pairing companies to tax incentives for large scale operations. 
Every single one comes down to something quirky that's often out of the control of the state legislature. 

Ohio had a huge leg up to get the new $20B semiconductor facility because 

"OHIO’s connection to Intel began in the company’s inception with the early collaboration of alumnus Hua-Thye “HT” Chua, BSEE ’59, and Intel’s cofounder Robert Noyce. Chua applied for and received the patent for Intel’s first commercial product, the i3101 64-bit RAM chip using the Schottky diode. He also co-authored a paper with Noyce about the impact of the Schottky diode on the science of integrated circuits; the technology outlined in the paper is still being used in the semiconductor industry today."
https://www.ohio.edu/news/2022/03/oh...ent-and-future

Getting this stuff is insanely competitive and comes down to inches.

----------


## gopokes88

> I think we need to take that Panasonic money and jump into semiconductors. We have land, water and money. Let's get in front on this national imperative


Intel is pretty much tapped out by now, so this isn't going to happen at any sort of scale.

----------


## Pete

> Getting this stuff is insanely competitive and comes down to inches.


This is why I keep saying that we need to have some sort of independent group provide the public with a study concerning why we are losing out and what we need to change.

Then, we can decide on a future course because what we have been doing is not working.


There is always a great opportunity to learn after a failure.  I'm suggesting we seize that opportunity rather than just go along with the political spin and Chamber sunshine-pumping.

----------


## gopokes88

> This is why I keep saying that we need to have some sort of independent group provide the public with a study concerning why we are losing out and what we need to change.
> 
> Then, we can decide on a future course because what we have been doing is not working.
> 
> 
> There is always a great opportunity to learn after a failure.  I'm suggesting we seize that opportunity rather than just go along with the political spin and Chamber sunshine-pumping.


I wouldn't be opposed to that at all, but it's not going to be as simple as "Oklahoma should increase education funding by 10%". It will have 50 different reasons, 47 of which the state govt can't do much about.

----------


## Pete

> I wouldn't be opposed to that at all, but it's not going to be as simple as "Oklahoma should increase education funding by 10%". It will have 50 different reasons, 47 of which the state govt can't do much about.


I never said education was the primary issue.

The simple truth is that none of us know why we are not competitive.  We need to find out and then make decisions accordingly.

----------


## gopokes88

> I never said education was the primary issue.
> 
> The simple truth is that none of us know why we are not competitive.  We need to find out and then make decisions accordingly.


Sometimes thing just don't work out and there isn't a "change" that can be made. Steady as she goes is boring, and usually the right decision. You can only maneuver a cruise ship so much.

----------


## Pete

> Sometimes thing just don't work out and there isn't a "change" that can be made. Steady as she goes is boring, and usually the right decision. You can only maneuver a cruise ship so much.


No disrespect, but you have no idea about any of this.

Voters deserve to know the facts and have a qualified, unbiased analysis of what we need to change to improve our track record.

All we're getting now is the typical political spin and lots of uninformed opinions.

----------


## gopokes88

> No disrespect, but you have no idea about any of this.
> 
> Voters deserve to know the facts and have a qualified, unbiased analysis of what we need to change to improve our track record.
> 
> All we're getting now is the typical political spin and lots of uninformed opinions.


No disrespect but half this country is obsessed with changing everything all the time, and its typically better to garden.

----------


## Pete

> No disrespect but half this country is obsessed with changing everything all the time, and its typically better to garden.


I guess we'll just spend another decade failing without even bothering to find out why.

Sounds like a great plan.

I guess we never should have started MAPS after the big failure with United Airlines.  Would have been better to keep languishing like we did in the '90s.

----------


## TheTravellers

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/st...7ba3a8b66.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/13/amer...-rankings.html (we're #38)

And incidentally, might as well mention this - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/14/thes...e-in-2022.html

----------


## Pete

As I've stated before, OKC has been charting its own course with a lot of success.

Missing out on big manufacturing opportunities has a much bigger impact on Tulsa and rural areas because they don't have a lot of momentum around economic development.  Those areas also lack the massive economic engines of the State and Tinker that bless Central Oklahoma.

As much as I'd like to see the state become more competitive, if Oklahomans keep electing rednecks, grifters, and culture warriors then they'll continue to get exactly what they deserve.

----------


## BG918

It all starts with the Governor and Stitt has shown he can’t get it done and creates division, especially with the tribes.  I know OKC doesn’t want to lose him as mayor but David Holt would be a good option that potentially could help with how state government is portrayed nationally

----------


## Pete

> It all starts with the Governor and Stitt has shown he can’t get it done and creates division, especially with the tribes.  I know OKC doesn’t want to lose him as mayor but David Holt would be a good option that potentially could help with how state government is portrayed nationally


A governor is term-limited to two 4-year terms.

Holt isn't running in the next election so we'll either get Stitt again or Joy Hoffmeister.

----------


## mugofbeer

> No disrespect, but you have no idea about any of this.
> 
> Voters deserve to know the facts and have a qualified, unbiased analysis of what we need to change to improve our track record.
> 
> All we're getting now is the typical political spin and lots of uninformed opinions.


Off the top of my head and for starters how about :

1) better education system that teaches what businesses want to see in hires 
1a) better teacher pay and a statewide MAPS-for-schools program for replacing old facilities and purchase of quality teaching tools.
1b) focus on high-quality teaching basics and get out of the business of trying to socially engineer children 
2) money invested in less risky, Panasonic/Tesla type prospects
3) preparing large swaths of land with utilities and rail for immediate use by industrial prospects, 
4) clear off unused or underused swaths of land (such as Crossroads mall) and aggressively recruit new, large-scale tenants, 
5) eliminate the state corporate income tax and educate people that corporations simply pass this tax through as an expense to consumers. Why would any business locate to OK when they can simply go to Texas and increase their profit margin 6%? 
6) lose the anti-big business mentality and accept that big businesses employ big numbers of people and pay big salaries, 
7) get MUCH more aggressive at going out and actually visiting desirable businesses or trade groups to get the word out Oklahoma  is being greatly overlooked as a desirable place to locate operations.
8) invest in a state highway 3 northwest-to-southeast non-stop corridor to attract trucking and vacationers to the state since there are few alternatives in that direction nationally.
9) recruit highly aggressive, highly successful, dynamic business people for our political leadership instead of (no offense meant to anyone in these fields) lawyers, small business owners and those with only oil & gas backgrounds.
10) continue and increase investing in pay-as-you-go self-improvement projects like MAPS that are proven winners and proven attractors of outside investment

----------


## shartel_ave

> https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/st...7ba3a8b66.html
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/13/amer...-rankings.html (we're #38)
> 
> And incidentally, might as well mention this - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/14/thes...e-in-2022.html


the first link, the tulsa world link is what I suggested about panasonic and I posted a link and my comment was removed

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/11/u...usinesses.html

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Bleak. Worst I've felt about Tulsa and the state's prospects in a long time. I thought Tulsa was on the brink of something big happening for once, another strikeout. Not sure how long it is till I start seriously looking to move to another state. OKC at least has some consistent momentum.


To be fair, it isn't like this was going in downtown Tulsa or in Tulsa at all. It would've been in Pryor which would be like saying OKC struck out and languishing over something that decided not to build in Shawnee or somewhere between Purcell and Pauls Valley, between Guthrie and Stillwater or between El Reno and Weatherford. It definitely would've been great for Tulsa and the NE part of the state, but it's extremely dramatic to act like this is specifically some poor reflection of Tulsa or Tulsa's fault. 

It is however, absolutely a poor reflection of where our state is right now. That would've been a perfect location between access to the port, cheap electricity, closer to Tesla, etc. No good logistical reason they should've chosen Kansas over NE OK

----------


## PhiAlpha

> It still begs a bunch of questions that need answers:  *Why were we so late?*  Why did we bother if we knew we couldn't match their package?  Why did we put together a package that wasn't competitive?  What are we going to do differently to have a fighting chance of winning these competitions in the future?


This is my biggest question. What TF are they even doing down there if we aren't getting ahead of the game on stuff like this?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe our personal politics don't get in the way, at least a little: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post!

----------


## mugofbeer

Unfortunately, politics plays into corporate decisions more and more but keep in mind, Kansas has just as much religious-right influence as OK and will likely have abortion controls. Texas already has stringent controls and has not missed a business beat.

When it comes to distribution centers, manufacturing products, etc., high levels of education generally aren't necessary.  As for available workforce and OK's low ranking, it comes from our low unemployment rate.  But if a Panasonic or Tesla were to locate in OK, the workforce would easily be available, either from migration or from people leaving their McDonalds jobs and learning how to use a forklift, unload trailers or operate a robot - all of which even educated people need to be trained how to operate.

IMO, I believe it is the fact that a company will automatically think of Texas when looking to the mid part of the country and not even consider Oklahoma.  OK simply must invest the funds to have a business development office to proactively go out and recruit possible employers and not wait around for employers to come to OK to inquire.

----------


## BG918

I like this quote “You can call it a failure and let it discourage you- Or you can call it experience and let it teach you.”  Need to step back and find the next opportunity

----------


## ABryant

McDonald's jobs. Are you a serious human being?

----------


## Pete

> I like this quote You can call it a failure and let it discourage you- Or you can call it experience and let it teach you.  Need to step back and find the next opportunity


The Powers that Be said the Tesla 'experience' would help us the next time around.

I no longer trust them.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Semiconductors are vital to almost every product and business these days.
> 
> We're seen the strong effect of constrained production over the last couple of years, and it's beyond the control of the U.S. as we produce only about 12% of the global market, down from 37% just 20 years ago.


Yes and imagine what will happen if China invades Taiwan? It's almost a matter of national security at this point. Really hope OK can find a way to capitalize on it.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> As I've stated before, OKC has been charting its own course with a lot of success.
> 
> Missing out on big manufacturing opportunities has a much bigger impact on Tulsa and rural areas because they don't have a lot of momentum around economic development.  Those areas also lack the massive economic engines of the State and Tinker that bless Central Oklahoma.
> 
> As much as I'd like to see the state become more competitive, if Oklahomans keep electing rednecks, grifters, and culture warriors then they'll continue to get exactly what they deserve.


This is spot on.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Coincidentally I just saw this article and it doesn’t surprise me: https://kfor.com/news/local/cnbc-okl...-for-business/

----------


## mugofbeer

> McDonald's jobs. Are you a serious human being?


Quite serious.  What is your problem?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Re-reading that Panasonic release, this struck me:
> 
> 
> 
> Could it be that Oklahoma is so tied up in fossil fuels that companies built around renewal energy question the state's ongoing commitment to their industry?
> 
> Just something to think about.


LOL. Well considering that they were going to put the plant in a spot that runs primarily on Hydroelectric, Wind and Natural Gas as a back up...that just sounds like posturing.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Ever notice that almost everything Oklahoma "wins" never pans out long term? Auto, Printing, GE etc?

----------


## mugofbeer

> 


LOL!  You would think after years of having this pointed out to him, he would figure it out.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> LOL!  You would think after years of having this pointed out to him, he would figure it out.


LOL...

Oh well, guess we'll just go screw ourselves then

----------


## ComeOnBenjals!

> To be fair, it isn't like this was going in downtown Tulsa or in Tulsa at all. It would've been in Pryor which would be like saying OKC struck out and languishing over something that decided not to build in Shawnee or somewhere between Purcell and Pauls Valley, between Guthrie and Stillwater or between El Reno and Weatherford. It definitely would've been great for Tulsa and the NE part of the state, but it's extremely dramatic to act like this is specifically some poor reflection of Tulsa or Tulsa's fault. 
> 
> It is however, absolutely a poor reflection of where our state is right now. That would've been a perfect location between access to the port, cheap electricity, closer to Tesla, etc. No good logistical reason they should've chosen Kansas over NE OK


You're right, after stepping away from it for a few days. Bit of an overreaction on my part lol. Still disappointed.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Coincidentally I just saw this article and it doesn’t surprise me: https://kfor.com/news/local/cnbc-okl...-for-business/


I saw that but they missed the mark.  You really have to look at economic development as a region.  The state does bring funding to the table on some projects but the region coming together is where the rubber meets the road.  Oklahoma City as well as the ten county region have done a great job of working with the consultants and site selectors who start the ball rolling on economic development projects.   Their bringing higher ed and the career techs together to form a compact so that for the first time ever we know what skill sets are coming out of the pipeline.  Working with companies to crank out the skill sets they need for now and the future.  Improving infrastructure and making this region a desirable place to live.  The state does not do this.  When you look at the state as a whole it does not give you this picture but when you focus in on the region it comes to light.   It is a reflection of leadership, vision and funding this regions has.

----------


## Bunty

> https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/st...7ba3a8b66.html
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/13/amer...-rankings.html (we're #38)
> 
> And incidentally, might as well mention this - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/14/thes...e-in-2022.html


LOL, I don't get much value from the top ten worst states to live in because half of them, such as Texas, are doing quite well, economically.  Life is how you make it.   If you're not making it, it must be time to move out of those states, if there.  Too many people not doing well and not doing anything about it drives down the quality-of-life statistics in those states. 

Otherwise, Oklahomans badly need to let go of voting for Republicans in Nov.  They have well proven that they actually want anti-abortion laws as draconian or worse as those found in backward third world countries, such as Iraq.  Republicans have actually said they don't mind Oklahoma losing economically from having such laws.  Rumor at the state capitol even has it that they want to ban sales of birth control except for married women.

----------


## Bunty

> Coincidentally I just saw this article and it doesn’t surprise me: https://kfor.com/news/local/cnbc-okl...-for-business/


It would help raise the Oklahoma standard of living by raising the state minimum wage from $7.25.  In Arkansas it's $11.  But Oklahomans for years have been more interested in petitioning to get pot legalized.  Oh, well,  tax revenue from legalizing rec pot would probably help clear the way to get rid of tax on food.  Doing that would also help raise the standard of living.

----------


## shartel_ave

> Yes and imagine what will happen if China invades Taiwan? It's almost a matter of national security at this point. Really hope OK can find a way to capitalize on it.


China will not invade Taiwan and the US would never risk a war with China 

The US government recognizes Taiwan as part of China

----------


## shartel_ave

> It would help raise the Oklahoma standard of living by raising the state minimum wage from $7.25.  In Arkansas it's $11.  But Oklahomans for years have been more interested in petitioning to get pot legalized.  Oh, well,  tax revenue from legalizing rec pot would probably help clear the way to get rid of tax on food.  Doing that would also help raise the standard of living.


How about $20 an hour minimum wage?  It’s 2022 and $20 an hour is what the minimum wage would be at it if it kept up with workers productivity and inflation 

$41k a year is not a ton of money and after taxes you are in the upper $30k range 

Small local companies should get subsidies and huge corporations should contribute to those subsidies but we live in a kleptocracy

----------


## soonerguru

> I saw that but they missed the mark.  You really have to look at economic development as a region.  The state does bring funding to the table on some projects but the region coming together is where the rubber meets the road.  Oklahoma City as well as the ten county region have done a great job of working with the consultants and site selectors who start the ball rolling on economic development projects.   Their bringing higher ed and the career techs together to form a compact so that for the first time ever we know what skill sets are coming out of the pipeline.  Working with companies to crank out the skill sets they need for now and the future.  Improving infrastructure and making this region a desirable place to live.  The state does not do this.  When you look at the state as a whole it does not give you this picture but when you focus in on the region it comes to light.   It is a reflection of leadership, vision and funding this regions has.


OKC has to fight against the negative perceptions of the state. I agree there is good work being done, and has been done. But imagine how much better we would be doing if we weren't having to push a boulder uphill.

It doesn't help us that our governor has an obvious preference for steering everything toward Tulsa and is openly hostile to OKC, as he is the tribes. Of course, despite this, he hasn't been successful at helping Tulsa or really any region of the state. He is more interested in PR and pumping ideology than getting anything done. 

I was hopeful he would actually be a pragmatic leader who would do what he can to improve the state but that isn't the case obviously.

----------


## TheTravellers

https://okpolicy.org/if-oklahoma-wan...apitol-update/

----------


## BG918

> https://okpolicy.org/if-oklahoma-wan...apitol-update/


Very reasonable response.  Hopefully this spurs some change because the status quo isn't working.

----------


## HOT ROD

> China will not invade Taiwan and the US would never risk a war with China 
> 
> The US government recognizes Taiwan as part of China


Having family from this area, I can speak with a bit of clarity here. The US does NOT recognize Taiwan as part of China, instead, they recognize that there is One China and it is the PRC. And they 'respect' that China claims Taiwan. This is not an acceptance and the US does not refer to Taiwan as a province of the PRC. In fact, the US has the Taiwan Relations Act and several others, that dictate relations for Taiwan and it's defense against the PRC. This piece is becoming more clearly defined given the PRCs "agression" but the truth is they're a paper tiger so the US can maintain status quo by being ambiguous up to now.

I can keep going on about this but truth is Taiwan was never part of the PRC, which didn't exist when the US forced Japan to give up Taiwan. Just like Hong Kong was not part of the PRC either - that agreement was with the Qing Dynasty just like the Taiwan concession was with the Kuomingtang - Republic of China, who ended up relocating to the island.

So to correct your statement, "China will not invade Taiwan, and the US would never WANT a war with China at the moment, the US government recognizes the PRC as China and Taiwan as the Republic of China". This is also proven by action.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> OKC has to fight against the negative perceptions of the state. I agree there is good work being done, and has been done. But imagine how much better we would be doing if we weren't having to push a boulder uphill.
> 
> It doesn't help us that our governor has an obvious preference for steering everything toward Tulsa and is openly hostile to OKC, as he is the tribes. Of course, despite this, he hasn't been successful at helping Tulsa or really any region of the state. He is more interested in PR and pumping ideology than getting anything done. 
> 
> I was hopeful he would actually be a pragmatic leader who would do what he can to improve the state but that isn't the case obviously.


I found it amusing that he pushed the Oklahoma Film office to Tulsa. 99% of Tulsa King is being produced in OKC.   Prairie surf is here and doing a ton of projects.  They are driving the opening of an OK Film office in OKC.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> The US government recognizes Taiwan as part of China


this is not remotely so black and white ..

----------


## HOT ROD

Stitt has pushed MOST things to the Tulsa area. Not saying they shouldn't get any love but Oklahoma City is the state capital and the largest city by far, and Stitt is largely ignoring it in favor of his hometown.

He should promote the strengths of Oklahoma: in this case, OKC is the burgeoning film center of the state so OKC should be getting that love; Tulsa is more manufacturing so I had no problem with the Canoo, Panasonic, etc promos. Although it is my opinion that had Oklahoma promoted OKC for the location it would have won. If we want to compete and WIN against other states, OKC is our best chance on most sectors.

----------


## ChrisHayes

> Stitt has pushed MOST things to the Tulsa area. Not saying they shouldn't get any love but Oklahoma City is the state capital and the largest city by far, and Stitt is largely ignoring it in favor of his hometown.
> 
> He should promote the strengths of Oklahoma: in this case, OKC is the burgeoning film center of the state so OKC should be getting that love; Tulsa is more manufacturing so I had no problem with the Canoo, Panasonic, etc promos. Although it is my opinion that had Oklahoma promoted OKC for the location it would have won. If we want to compete and WIN against other states, OKC is our best chance on most sectors.


Oklahoma City has a lot of momentum for a number of reasons already. If Stitt were successful in getting even one or two big employers into the Tulsa area, it would help the Tulsa area get the momentum it needs. So, I really don't mind Stitt trying to get movement there. But like I mentioned in another thread, I'd like to see OKC, Tulsa, Woodward, Enid, Lawton, and Ardmore all have growth momentum.

----------


## Bunty

Ralph Nader's recent podcast was interesting where he interviewed a guest who is an expert on government given incentives.  He said, "We have to back up and remember that we should never assume these things “work.” And I put the word “work” in quotes because the truth is— and people who make their living helping companies shake down governments will admit this if you ask them— incentives almost never determine where companies actually choose to expand or locate. They don’t, because they can’t, because state and local taxes are a microscopic cost variable for the average company."  The interview can be heard here starting at the 34 minute mark:  https://www.ralphnaderradiohour.com/?
powerpress_pinw=6304-podcast

The Kansas City start did an article on Panasonic.  It said Kansas City's much bigger work force than Tulsa's was in part.  It also said the project was almost canceled, due to inflation:  https://www.kansascity.com/news/poli...263445783.html

----------


## BG918

> The Kansas City start did an article on Panasonic.  It said Kansas City's much bigger work force than Tulsa's was in part.  It also said the project was almost canceled, due to inflation:  https://www.kansascity.com/news/poli...263445783.html


Ford is building two massive EV and battery factories in rural parts of Kentucky and Tennessee.  Pryor is in between Tulsa and NWA which has a combined population of 1.7M with another ~300k within a two hour drive in eastern Oklahoma, the highest population density in the state

----------


## chssooner

https://www.edweek.org/policy-politi...lahoma/2021/01

Using this to go to North Carolina, I no longer think education matters. They are barely, and I mean BARELY higher than Oklahoma. 

https://www.urban.org/policy-centers...n-expenditures

Using the above, Oklahoma is above many other states that have been getting these uber-manufacturing projects. I think that it has a ton to do with tax incentives just not being structured well-enough. Most states getting these projects couldn't care less about social issues (Oklahoma has legal weed, where as Texas, Kansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina don't). Not like they are more progressive on any more issues than Oklahoma is.

Point being, I think Oklahoma just needs to look at how they structure their taxes, and somehow change their perception. Because aside from secondary education, they are very, very competitive with most states getting thee large projects. And even more so when it comes to higher education spending.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> https://www.edweek.org/policy-politi...lahoma/2021/01
> 
> Using this to go to North Carolina, I no longer think education matters. They are barely, and I mean BARELY higher than Oklahoma. 
> 
> https://www.urban.org/policy-centers...n-expenditures
> 
> Using the above, Oklahoma is above many other states that have been getting these uber-manufacturing projects. I think that it has a ton to do with tax incentives just not being structured well-enough. Most states getting these projects couldn't care less about social issues (Oklahoma has legal weed, where as Texas, Kansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina don't). Not like they are more progressive on any more issues than Oklahoma is.
> 
> Point being, I think Oklahoma just needs to look at how they structure their taxes, and somehow change their perception. Because aside from secondary education, they are very, very competitive with most states getting thee large projects. And even more so when it comes to higher education spending.


Yeah I definitely don’t think it would hurt for the state to look deeper into this and evaluate everything that led to them choosing Kansas over OK, but I would put a lot of money on the financial considerations being the primary driver in their decision. I’ve talked to multiple people who deal with things like this on a daily basis, one being the head of government affairs for OK for a national company with a huge presence here (who wouldn’t have any reason to spin some story for the state) , all said they thought and had heard that it all came down to KS giving them 30-40% more in incentives. 

As I said, by all means we should evaluate what went wrong here so that we can make the moves necessary to win next time but we also shouldn’t wallow in despair and over think it. It wasn’t like KS just threw $500 on top of our offer and that sent the deal over the edge. They offered significantly more money to a multinational company that likely saw the two locations and two states as extremely similar so they took the better incentive package.

----------


## Bunty

Or maybe Panasonic already decided it would be Kansas and wanted to see if Kansas would offer more incentive than Oklahoma.  It apparently did.  Maybe Oklahoma had a claw back in the contract while Kansas didn't.  So, if Panasonic could only get up to 2000, rather than 4000 jobs, it would have to give back half of the incentives to Kansas.

----------


## Bunty

Oklahoma will have to decide fate of $698 million set aside for failed Panasonic deal
https://www.stwnewspress.com/oklahom...2b9ca1b65.html

----------


## David

‘Shocking.’ Kansas secures no jobs or pay commitments in Panasonic’s $4B battery plant




> There’s no question that the numbers were significant when Panasonic announced it would invest some $4 billion and create 4,000 jobs at a new battery plant in De Soto. Kansas Gov. Laura Kelly said the investment was the largest in state history. And if Panasonic were to hire 4,000 workers, it would become one of the largest employers in the Kansas City metro area. But that’s a big if. The state’s agreement with Panasonic doesn’t require the company to create 4,000 jobs — or any jobs at all. Nor does it create minimum wage or salary standards for the firm — a crucial component of many economic development packages.


Turns out the big thing our Panasonic deal was missing was the complete lack of accountability that the Kansas version had.

----------


## shavethewhales

Yeah, the KS deal is crazy. I feel slightly better now that I've actually looked at what both states were offering and it makes somewhat more sense that they chose KS even though I'm sure there are plenty of factors about OK that still need to be addressed. The thing is, as loose as the KS deal is, they'll still probably come out ahead anyway. Panasonic is going to create a large number of high paying jobs, even if it ends up being less than 4,000. There will likely be other supporting firms and suppliers that move in around Panasonic and they'll make themselves more attractive to other companies.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Hopefully leaders are eyeing this bill and potential developments that might come from it can be lured to the state: https://www.route-fifty.com/infrastr...uction/374970/

----------


## Bunty

> Hopefully leaders are eyeing this bill and potential developments that might come from it can be lured to the state: https://www.route-fifty.com/infrastr...uction/374970/


Due to their fiscal conservatism policy, I wouldn't trust Oklahomans in Congress to want to direct federal semi-conductor incentive money to Oklahoma.  Sen. Inhofe might be an exception to that, but he doesn't have much time left.  Can anybody think of anything Sen. Lankford has done for Oklahoma as far as directing federal money to Oklahoma, such as improve the infrastructure?  I can't.  Or what the reps have done.

Republican candidates for Congress ought to be asked what they want to do to direct federal funds to Oklahoma to help with its infrastructure, economic development or whatever.  If they don't want to do anything, then they might as well advocate for federal income tax cuts.

----------


## HFAA Alum

> Oklahoma will have to decide fate of $698 million set aside for failed Panasonic deal
> https://www.stwnewspress.com/oklahom...2b9ca1b65.html


I'm sure Stitt will try to keep that money stashed in Tulsa somehow, despite it better being used elsewhere. In other news, I hear OKC is trying to implement a rail system for the metro and there's rumblings of a new stadium for the Thunder on the horizon. But of course that's in OKC, Stitt is more into photo-ops and shoving every lucrative business opportunity out of the state.

----------


## TU 'cane

> I'm sure Stitt will try to keep that money stashed in Tulsa somehow, despite it better being used elsewhere. In other news, I hear OKC is trying to implement a rail system for the metro and there's rumblings of a new stadium for the Thunder on the horizon. But of course that's in OKC, Stitt is more into photo-ops and shoving every lucrative business opportunity out of the state.


Help me out here, would ya? I'm confused, are you angry OK didn't land the Panasonic plant? Are you satisfied "Tulsa" didn't get it to spite Stitt and Tulsa? I put Tulsa in quotes because Pryor is about 40-45 mins. East of Tulsa and not even included in the metro. 
Has Stitt literally shoved every "lucrative" business opportunity out of the state? Like, he's pushing them away the best he can instead of trying to draw them here? Can you please provide proof of your claim(s)?

The Tulsa bashing that goes on in this board is something that I've been watching since taking a break from here and it's only gotten worse since we have a governor from Tulsa (God forbid it!). Tulsa, for the benefit of all of the posters on here who've partaken in this silly charade, has a metro over 1,000,000 and is OK's second largest city. It needs things just as much as OKC does. So, are you suggesting OKC gets everything and every other city be damned? What all has Stitt "given" Tulsa vs. OKC?

Please, help me out here. 

P.S. as far as the Thunder's new arena goes, this is a Tulsa specific sub-forum with a thread about the Panasonic plant. 
But since you started it, here it goes: You're fine with state tax dollars going to the Thunder when OKC should be first and foremost trying to figure it out? 
What of the people in Durant who are Mavericks fans? What of the folks in Guymon or Boise City who may be Nuggets fans? And what of the people who don't care about the NBA?

----------


## TU 'cane

If we're going to have these conversations, let's have them. 
Maybe some of you will start thinking before posting emotional outbursts.

----------


## chssooner

> Help me out here, would ya? I'm confused, are you angry OK didn't land the Panasonic plant? Are you satisfied "Tulsa" didn't get it to spite Stitt and Tulsa? I put Tulsa in quotes because Pryor is about 40-45 mins. East of Tulsa and not even included in the metro. 
> Has Stitt literally shoved every "lucrative" business opportunity out of the state? Like, he's pushing them away the best he can instead of trying to draw them here? Can you please provide proof of your claim(s)?
> 
> The Tulsa bashing that goes on in this board is something that I've been watching since taking a break from here and it's only gotten worse since we have a governor from Tulsa (God forbid it!). Tulsa, for the benefit of all of the posters on here who've partaken in this silly charade, has a metro over 1,000,000 and is OK's second largest city. It needs things just as much as OKC does. So, are you suggesting OKC gets everything and every other city be damned? What all has Stitt "given" Tulsa vs. OKC?
> 
> Please, help me out here. 
> 
> P.S. as far as the Thunder's new arena goes, this is a Tulsa specific sub-forum with a thread about the Panasonic plant. 
> But since you started it, here it goes: You're fine with state tax dollars going to the Thunder when OKC should be first and foremost trying to figure it out? 
> What of the people in Durant who are Mavericks fans? What of the folks in Guymon or Boise City who may be Nuggets fans? And what of the people who don't care about the NBA?


Not everything. But pitting Tulsa against Austin or Kansas City isn't fair. Tulsa against Wichita or El Paso, sure. But those big hitters were not looking for a smaller big city like Tulsa. OKC was better to competitor against both. And he should have realized it after the Tesla abortion.

----------


## TU 'cane

> Not everything. But pitting Tulsa against Austin or Kansas City isn't fair. Tulsa against Wichita or El Paso, sure. But those big hitters were not looking for a smaller big city like Tulsa. OKC was better to competitor against both. And he should have realized it after the Tesla abortion.


Does OKC have anything along the same lines as the M.A.I.C. with infrastructure ready to go + relative proximity to a port? 
Has the city of OKC told Stitt they have a site ready to go for these proposals? If so, let's see it. Or is OKC sitting back and letting things go by as well? 

Does the governor trump the chamber of commerce(s) and other economic advisory boards? Have any of them come out and said OKC would be more competitive or there are better sites around OKC (or other parts of the state)?

----------


## BG918

> Not everything. But pitting Tulsa against Austin or Kansas City isn't fair. Tulsa against Wichita or El Paso, sure. But those big hitters were not looking for a smaller big city like Tulsa. OKC was better to competitor against both. And he should have realized it after the Tesla abortion.


Mid-America meets a lot of the criteria large industrial plants need like large plots of land with a single landowner and utility rate electricity and water through GRDA.  It's location is great for some manufacturing and data center operations but it's distance from Tulsa likely puts it at a disadvantage for attracting operations with thousands of employees.  The Tesla site was at least within the Tulsa city limits but I haven't seen it marketed again, and doesn't have a lot of the built-in advantages of MAIP or Cherokee.

----------


## chssooner

> Does OKC have anything along the same lines as the M.A.I.C. with infrastructure ready to go + relative proximity to a port? 
> Has the city of OKC told Stitt they have a site ready to go for these proposals? If so, let's see it. Or is OKC sitting back and letting things go by as well? 
> 
> Does the governor trump the chamber of commerce(s) and other economic advisory boards? Have any of them come out and said OKC would be more competitive or there are better sites around OKC (or other parts of the state)?


Stitt was all over the Tesla and Panasonic plant bids, and was the visible face of the bids. When has he done anything like that for an OK area project? Sure, he will be a face at an announcement, but he doesn't tweet at people for OKC bids. The governor being visible means a lot. Abbott in Texas does it all the time, for the entire state, not just his beloved home area.

----------


## Bellaboo

Don't forget that Stitt moved a part of the Health department to Stillwater, His beloved college town. And it was a mess for a good while. People resigned not wanting to relocate. 
Stitt puts his people in high admin jobs, and they later get tossed for not being qualified. Look at the Tourism Dept fiasco, and the lack of transparency. 
Just can't trust the guy.
He also butchered OTC. Installing his puppets, which damn near destroyed it with the loss of the knowledge base.

----------


## Bunty

It's interesting how Stitt in moving the health dept. to Stillwater put it closer to Tulsa.  Anyway, I hope enough people have the good sense not to vote for Stitt in Nov.  Too much bad political judgment.  Too much scandal.  Too much alienating the tribes.  For starters.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Don't forget that Stitt moved a part of the Health department to Stillwater, His beloved college town. And it was a mess for a good while. People resigned not wanting to relocate. 
> Stitt puts his people in high admin jobs, and they later get tossed for not being qualified. Look at the Tourism Dept fiasco, and the lack of transparency. 
> Just can't trust the guy.
> He also butchered OTC. Installing his puppets, which damn near destroyed it with the loss of the knowledge base.


But, but, but, he supports OKC too. /s

----------


## Thomas Vu

I'm not sure if the Tulsa hate is really even hate.  I don't stop by as often, but don't think I see a lot in terms of Tulsa hate.

----------


## Scott5114

I just got back from Kansas City last week. It's shocking how many new warehouses and big industrial buildings there are in Johnson County that I didn't notice the last time I was there in November. A lot of stuff going in along the I-35 corridor in Edgerton and Gardner. It's clear that there's some sort of magic happening there that isn't here, even beyond this Panasonic deal.

----------


## rte66man

I think the new BNSF intermodal facility just east of Edgerton was the catalyst for a lot of this expansion. Add in the expansion of the New Century airpark in Gardner (looks like the runways are long enough to take UPS and FedEx jets) and you have a sweet spot for warehouses. Walmart and Amazon surely think so.

----------


## TU 'cane

> I just got back from Kansas City last week. It's shocking how many new warehouses and big industrial buildings there are in Johnson County that I didn't notice the last time I was there in November. A lot of stuff going in along the I-35 corridor in Edgerton and Gardner. It's clear that there's some sort of magic happening there that isn't here, even beyond this Panasonic deal.





> I think the new BNSF intermodal facility just east of Edgerton was the catalyst for a lot of this expansion. Add in the expansion of the New Century airpark in Gardner (looks like the runways are long enough to take UPS and FedEx jets) and you have a sweet spot for warehouses. Walmart and Amazon surely think so.


In case both of you haven't noticed the popular opinion(s) going on here, we aren't allowed to discuss these other possible reasons. We're only allowed to blame current state leadership, rural rednecks, etc. 

*I jest,* but I hope people see the point that conversations like these become a joke when there's some scapegoat to pin things on instead of logical facts like this. Just re-read the last several pages.

Of course, some people will then turn this part of the conversation into "Well, why isn't Stitt encouraging new warehouse construction around Pryor or OKC?!" 



Just havin' a little fun, people. Don't anyone take it too seriously.

----------


## David

I've read fun posts before, that one didn't seem to come from a place of fun.

----------


## dcsooner

> I've read fun posts before, that one didn't seem to come from a place of fun.


+!

----------


## TU 'cane

> I've read fun posts before, that one didn't seem to come from a place of fun.





> +!


Not as funny when it's based in so much truth, is it? I quoted several posts some pages back that undeniably prove the point I'm making here, please go find it for context. 

And please, I beg for your forgiveness for breaking your fun-o-meters this morning.

----------


## dcsooner

n case both of you haven't noticed the popular opinion(s) going on here, we aren't allowed to discuss these other possible reasons. We're only allowed to blame current state leadership, rural rednecks, etc.

I jest, *but I hope people see the point that conversations like these become a joke when there's some scapegoat to pin things on instead of logical facts like this. Just re-read the last several pages.
*
Of course, some people will then turn this part of the conversation into "Well, why isn't Stitt encouraging new warehouse construction around Pryor or OKC?!"

What I think is not "funny" is so many peoples unwillingness to see the obvious damage the last  two Governors have done to the reputation and credibility of Oklahoma. Goverors' Fallin and Stitt both failed to deliver Statewide prosperity.  Facts are that Gov. Stitts adminstration attempts to run a "Trumpian" style, heavy handed, obedience type of governance. Truth is corruption has been uncovered in a variety of agencies. His piggyback policies (following mostly Texas) have made the State a laughing stock. Look at Twitter posts that show Oklahomas ranking in a number of economic and Q of L areas. There is nothing remotely "funny" about the damage being done to  the State I love.

----------


## baralheia

> n case both of you haven't noticed the popular opinion(s) going on here, we aren't allowed to discuss these other possible reasons. We're only allowed to blame current state leadership, rural rednecks, etc.
> 
> I jest, *but I hope people see the point that conversations like these become a joke when there's some scapegoat to pin things on instead of logical facts like this. Just re-read the last several pages.
> *
> Of course, some people will then turn this part of the conversation into "Well, why isn't Stitt encouraging new warehouse construction around Pryor or OKC?!"
> 
> What I think is not "funny" is so many peoples unwillingness to see the obvious damage the last  two Governors have done to the reputation and credibility of Oklahoma. Goverors' Fallin and Stitt both failed to deliver Statewide prosperity.  Facts are that Gov. Stitts adminstration attempts to run a "Trumpian" style, heavy handed, obedience type of governance. Truth is corruption has been uncovered in a variety of agencies. His piggyback policies (following mostly Texas) have made the State a laughing stock. Look at Twitter posts that show Oklahomas ranking in a number of economic and Q of L areas. There is nothing remotely "funny" about the damage being done to  the State I love.


I agree. I don't think the Governor's office is the only reason that we lost the Panasonic deal, but I absolutely believe it's a contributing factor.

----------


## catch22

I think the frustration lies in the messaging from the governor’s office. A bunch of propaganda at being the leader, or a top ten state in every category. Super pro business. Super this. Super that. Freedom. America. Business. More freedom. Companies will be flocking here.

And not a damn thing has come from it, in fact we are ranked bottom of the barrel in many categories. The state’s actions cannot back up what the governor is selling.

----------


## chssooner

> I think the frustration lies in the messaging from the governor’s office. A bunch of propaganda at being the leader, or a top ten state in every category. Super pro business. Super this. Super that. Freedom. America. Business. More freedom. Companies will be flocking here.
> 
> And not a damn thing has come from it, in fact we are ranked bottom of the barrel in many categories. The state’s actions cannot back up what the governor is selling.


And he will be re-elected in a LANDSLIDE!

----------


## Laramie

> And he will be re-elected in a LANDSLIDE!


That should concern us all.  

Elect Joy Hofmeister, she's conservative.  She will do a better job IMO than Kevin Sttit, who hasn't delivered on any of his promises--other than dig Oklahoma into a deeper hole.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I agree. I don't think the Governor's office is the only reason that we lost the Panasonic deal, but I absolutely believe it's a contributing factor.


It might have been a slight contributor but had little to nothing to do with the final decision (other than not matching Kansas’s incentive deal).

----------


## shavethewhales

> I think the frustration lies in the messaging from the governors office. A bunch of propaganda at being the leader, or a top ten state in every category. Super pro business. Super this. Super that. Freedom. America. Business. More freedom. Companies will be flocking here.
> 
> And not a damn thing has come from it, in fact we are ranked bottom of the barrel in many categories. The states actions cannot back up what the governor is selling.


Exactly. The Governor deserves to take flak from getting the state excited for these big opportunities only to consistently sh*t the bed when it comes to execution. The governor should have made sure we could have countered Kansas' deal more effectively if he was going to weigh in and promote this opportunity. It's almost like he just wanted to create the illusion of "doing something" and supporting business growth in the state but didn't care if we actually won. 

Not only are missing every big opportunity that presents itself but we are also slipping on many other metrics, making us an even worse contestant. There's really no hope in getting our hopes up for anything else at this point until there are major changes in OK's government, which we all know won't happen this decade.

----------


## Scott5114

The thing is, how many potential deals is Oklahoma rejected for before they even get to the stage of reaching out to the state government? If the decision to disqualify Oklahoma happens in the boardroom when they're brainstorming the initial list of candidates they want to look into, we'd have no way of knowing that discussion even took place. And that would be the stage at which the political climate and cultural norms get factored in. It's not as if it's something they would only find out about once they started negotiating a deal with the state.

Suppose the CEO of a company building a new plant was someone to whom abortion access was really important. They'd start the process by pulling up a map of the legal status of abortion in each state. And then cross off all the states without abortion access as candidates. There would be no point in that company contacting Oklahoma to begin with; the CEO would never select Oklahoma as the final candidate, so it'd be a waste of both the company and the state's time.

----------


## chssooner

> The thing is, how many potential deals is Oklahoma rejected for before they even get to the stage of reaching out to the state government? If the decision to disqualify Oklahoma happens in the boardroom when they're brainstorming the initial list of candidates they want to look into, we'd have no way of knowing that discussion even took place. And that would be the stage at which the political climate and cultural norms get factored in. It's not as if it's something they would only find out about once they started negotiating a deal with the state.
> 
> Suppose the CEO of a company building a new plant was someone to whom abortion access was really important. They'd start the process by pulling up a map of the legal status of abortion in each state. And then cross off all the states without abortion access as candidates. There would be no point in that company contacting Oklahoma to begin with; the CEO would never select Oklahoma as the final candidate, so it'd be a waste of both the company and the state's time.


Those same CEOs don't far whey Texas comes in and offers tons of money. Their morals go away then. So let's not think they aren't just altruistic.

----------


## Scott5114

> Those same CEOs don't far whey Texas comes in and offers tons of money. Their morals go away then. So let's not think they aren't just altruistic.


We have no way of knowing if Texas is losing out on investment opportunities as well. We only see the deals that go through, or at least get close.

Texas is also quite a bit more ideologically diverse at the city/county level than Oklahoma is, so that can make a difference. Note that many of the companies moving into Texas choose to move into Austin specifically, which is culturally dissimilar from the rest of the state.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> We have no way of knowing if Texas is losing out on investment opportunities as well. We only see the deals that go through, or at least get close.
> 
> Texas is also quite a bit more ideologically diverse at the city/county level than Oklahoma is, so that can make a difference. Note that many of the companies moving into Texas choose to move into Austin specifically, which is culturally dissimilar from the rest of the state.


Dallas/Fort Worth gets as much or more than Austin does.

----------


## BG918

> We have no way of knowing if Texas is losing out on investment opportunities as well. We only see the deals that go through, or at least get close.
> 
> Texas is also quite a bit more ideologically diverse at the city/county level than Oklahoma is, so that can make a difference. Note that many of the companies moving into Texas choose to move into Austin specifically, which is culturally dissimilar from the rest of the state.


Maybe in the big cities but small town Texas and small town Oklahoma are nearly identical

----------


## Scott5114

> Maybe in the big cities but small town Texas and small town Oklahoma are nearly identical


That's exactly my point. The big cities in Texas are big enough that you can ignore, to some extent, the small town parts of Texas.

In Oklahoma, the rural areas are comparatively more powerful, politically and culturally speaking.

----------


## HFAA Alum

> Help me out here, would ya? I'm confused, are you angry OK didn't land the Panasonic plant? Are you satisfied "Tulsa" didn't get it to spite Stitt and Tulsa? I put Tulsa in quotes because Pryor is about 40-45 mins. East of Tulsa and not even included in the metro. 
> Has Stitt literally shoved every "lucrative" business opportunity out of the state? Like, he's pushing them away the best he can instead of trying to draw them here? Can you please provide proof of your claim(s)?
> 
> The Tulsa bashing that goes on in this board is something that I've been watching since taking a break from here and it's only gotten worse since we have a governor from Tulsa (God forbid it!). Tulsa, for the benefit of all of the posters on here who've partaken in this silly charade, has a metro over 1,000,000 and is OK's second largest city. It needs things just as much as OKC does. So, are you suggesting OKC gets everything and every other city be damned? What all has Stitt "given" Tulsa vs. OKC?
> 
> Please, help me out here. 
> 
> P.S. as far as the Thunder's new arena goes, this is a Tulsa specific sub-forum with a thread about the Panasonic plant. 
> But since you started it, here it goes: You're fine with state tax dollars going to the Thunder when OKC should be first and foremost trying to figure it out? 
> What of the people in Durant who are Mavericks fans? What of the folks in Guymon or Boise City who may be Nuggets fans? And what of the people who don't care about the NBA?


Had a busy week so I couldn't immediately respond to you. So allow me to expound on my rant a little further. 

I am upset that the proposition did not go through, something like this would've benefitted the state by a mile. But the drive to press inquiring businesses to cities that have inadequate infrastructure (namely air traffic accommodations) to handle the demand that's being requested is not only foolish, but also selfish. It speaks of the ego that Stitt himself has in prefacing all of these deals to be located in Tulsa like a "take it or leave it" kind of negotiation. It doesn't make any sense to continue to press these ventures towards a direction the businesses and corporations don't want to go. And all it does is incentivize these corporations to look elsewhere. I credit Laura Kelly for being able to help her state land such a profitable venture that will add jobs to the Kansas City metropolitan area, even if it especially benefits Missouri just as much. The point of the matter is that the business will be in Kansas because Panasonic pushed for the most lucrative city for the deal and the governor gave them favorable terms. If Panasonic landed in OKC, they would see both the land advantage and the closer connectivity to the towns in Texas, all while being hubbed near an international airport, military airbase, and an Amazon warehouse facility. In other words, the commercial implications would be virtually endless. Now to my next point.

I am not digging on Tulsa in any way, not the slightest. I actually root for the laundry list of improvements the city is seeking to implement. I love the park that's been put there, how they built a land bridge over the highway just to better connect the park instead of there being this massive concrete divide like there is in Scissortail Park (It's a nice park, but I just don't like the concrete slicing between the two halves, that and some random asshat not wanting to sell land to the park and allowing that square to be a blight in what would be an otherwise beautiful southern half). If anything, some of the density and architecture that goes on in Tulsa is something I'd wish OKC would take more of a risk with instead of depending solely on "in-house" contractors. It's always a grand vision that gets stepped down for price tag, then stepped down even further for the cheapest dollar on development, and then we end up with some mostly disappointing results (like the Oklahoma Boulevard, the lid that should've led to the innovation district, the architecture of the main building of the innovation district, the OU medical tower that had three of its top floors lopped off just before the start of the pandemic, the Paycom complex that looks more and more like a cheap Minecraft build, and OG&E tower complex that's now just a surface lot soccer field, just to name a few examples). There's many disappointments to be had, but some developments there do have me optimistic for the future. The same goes here.

I visited Tulsa and used to live in OKC, at one point I was jealous of how dense Tulsa was in contrast to OKC at the time (2010). I root and cheer for both of these cities to continue pursuing growth and improvement, because God knows the place I live in now does not believe in growth other than relocating a regional airport and building a toll bridge, all while allowing businesses, corporations, and tourist attractions to seat themselves the next county over across the bay. What these two cities have experienced in growth over the past three years, my current city can't even achieve in a decade thanks to cronyism, red-lining, and good-old-boys networking. Trust me when I say it, OKLAHOMA HAS IT GOOD RIGHT NOW. 

So am I upset with Stitt for pushing Tulsa, yes but not out of bias. His mentality and delusion of altruism is nothing more than a reflection of the same corruption and muck I see here in the state of Alabama, where there's no lottery, the cities up north have more priority, and a whole port city can go neglected for two decades just because of a mayor's political affiliation and skin color (yeah, you think the congress over in DC is mad with the games, I'll tell you this city had the blueprint for it for over twenty years). Trust me when I say that coming to the forums of these two cities give me hope and perspective in contrast to the mundane doldrums I'm currently planted in, the city that started Mardi Gras itself but can't even compete with New Orleans for tourism. Sad.

So yeah, trust that I'm not bashing Tulsa. Wanna see me bash a city, I'll willingly bash Mobile for free.

----------


## progressiveboy

Oklahoma is truly at a crossroads for their future. The mindset boggles me with the way the State Government leads Oklahoma, and how the residents of Oklahoma continue to put up with this archaic, ignorant path. Does Oklahoma have a long term future and have a long term sustainability?  Gov Stitt will win election by a landslide and will continue to keep Oklahoma on a stagnant economic path. Wake up residents of Oklahoma! You have the choice to live in mediocrity or live up to your potential that you can improve socially, economically and enjoy a decent quality of life!

----------


## Bunty

> I think the frustration lies in the messaging from the governor’s office. A bunch of propaganda at being the leader, or a top ten state in every category. Super pro business. Super this. Super that. Freedom. America. Business. More freedom. Companies will be flocking here.
> 
> And not a damn thing has come from it, in fact we are ranked bottom of the barrel in many categories. The state’s actions cannot back up what the governor is selling.


At least Oklahoma ranks number *5* for bridges.

----------


## Bunty

> And he will be re-elected in a LANDSLIDE!


 Perish the thought!  I think Hofmeister has a good chance of getting many of the female votes, especially if she makes clear that she doesn't stand with Stitt for extreme abortion bans. Our neighbor to the north, Kansas, sure made clear Tues. night in a surprising blowout vote that it can't get behind the Republicans to support extreme abortion bans.  Oklahomans will quite likely have to petition for a vote to put the right to abortion in the state constitution, while making the state more attractive to business and industry.  I trust that Oklahomans can reject extremism as good as Kansas when allowed to vote on it.  If I'm right, Stitt will lose.

I think the tribes will do what they can to try to get rid of Stitt.

----------


## BG918

If rec marijuana makes it on ballot this November I think that favors Hofmeister

----------


## Bunty

> If rec marijuana makes it on ballot this November I think that favors Hofmeister


Yeah, but I don't think there is as much passion to legalize rec marijuana as there was for medical marijuana.  If Hofmeister tells Republicans that she will consider going back to being a Republican if she wins and runs for reelection that could help her.

----------


## PhiAlpha

I think we could do better than Stitt, but Hofmeister just hasnt ever really done anything for me. I dont think Stitt is holding us back in such a way on the business development (or whatever you want to call it) front that Hofmeister is going to be some savior. The only thing that wouldve saved this deal wouldve been matching Kansass incentive package which, correct me if Im wrong, but was decided on by the state legislature and approved by StittI dont think he put the dollar figure on it. Id be interested in seeing something quantifiable that shows Stitt is the reason were missing out on deals like this because so far it just seems like a bunch of people that dont like him or his politics making him the scape goat. Hard to believe the most inspiring challenger to Stitt this fall is Joy Hofmeisterpretty weak.

I know everyone wants to be super critical on this and I think the self examination is a good thing but dont over think it they looked at two very similar options and took the one that offered several hundred million dollars more in incentives. We could have the perfect governor and it wouldnt have changed that.

----------


## Bunty

> I think we could do better than Stitt, but Hofmeister just hasnt ever really done anything for me. I dont think Stitt is holding us back in such a way on the business development (or whatever you want to call it) front that Hofmeister is going to be some savior. The only thing that wouldve saved this deal wouldve been matching Kansass incentive package which, correct me if Im wrong, but was decided on by the state legislature and approved by StittI dont think he put the dollar figure on it. Id be interested in seeing something quantifiable that shows Stitt is the reason were missing out on deals like this because so far it just seems like a bunch of people that dont like him or his politics making him the scape goat. Hard to believe the most inspiring challenger to Stitt this fall is Joy Hofmeisterpretty weak.
> 
> I know everyone wants to be super critical on this and I think the self examination is a good thing but dont over think it they looked at two very similar options and took the one that offered several hundred million dollars more in incentives. We could have the perfect governor and it wouldnt have changed that.


Oklahoma could have equaled or bettered Kansas on the Panasonic deal since Stitt said Oklahoma now has $2.8 billion saved up.  With interest rates still quite low, I don't see much sense in letting it accumulate.  Next year, at least $1 billion should be taken from it to help public schools.  If voters don't want private or religious schools included, they will have to vote for candidates that don't.  

Every state incentive plan for a new company should come with a claw back provision to ensure taxpayers don't get fleeced.

----------


## Pete

Interesting perspective from a Kansas publication:

https://kansasreflector.com/2022/07/...cturing-plant/




> The back story of the largest private-sector development in state history included an auspicious dinner conversation in Washington, D.C., clandestine trips to Nevada and Japan, rare political bipartisanship in Topeka and *a clumsy pitch by main rival Oklahoma*. Behind-the-scenes work on the deal included rejection by Panasonic of Kansas first incentive offer and the companys decision to embrace a substantially strengthened bid.

----------


## chssooner

> Interesting perspective from a Kansas publication:
> 
> https://kansasreflector.com/2022/07/...cturing-plant/


It was clumsy, but theirs isn't very thoughtful. If Panasonic only hires half of what they say, they are still entitled to the whole incentive package. Oklahoma's was job-based, unlike Kansas.

----------


## BG918

> Interesting perspective from a Kansas publication:
> 
> https://kansasreflector.com/2022/07/...cturing-plant/


This was interesting, and likely led to Kansas going all-out to secure this.  What's Oklahoma's record?  Google in Pryor, Boeing in OKC, ???




> *Since 2017, Kansas had a dismal 0 for 11 record in attempts to land megaprojects, ranging from aviation to food manufacturing.*
> 
> Project Ocean surfaced on the state Department of Commerces radar in 2021. It was of special significance to Kansas because Panasonic was examining the potential of Midwest sites, including the Sunflower property in De Soto.

----------


## Bellaboo

Stitt exposed again.

----------


## Jeremy Martin

> It was clumsy, but theirs isn't very thoughtful. If Panasonic only hires half of what they say, they are still entitled to the whole incentive package. Oklahoma's was job-based, unlike Kansas.


This to me seems more thought out than clumsy.  I am pro-incentive but we also need to make sure the business is a good partner for the state.  Not saying Panasonic wasn't, but we do need to keep that in mind for the next one.

----------


## catch22

Stitt makes things harder for himself. He says things to the effect of we are a top contender and likely to land this deal. And Panasonic says “Oklahoma? Never heard of them”. He should have just set expectations right from the start and say “Hey, Oklahomans. This is a moon shot, but we have incredible potential to land this if we can all get on the same page”

That involves bringing people together, though. Not his strong point.

----------


## Dob Hooligan

Wall Street Journal reports Panasonic is in talks to build additional $4 billion battery plant and Oklahoma is front runner

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Hopefully this goes through!




> TOKYO—Panasonic Holdings Corp., PCRFY -0.24%▼ a supplier to electric-vehicle maker Tesla Inc., TSLA -0.35%▼ is in discussions to build an additional roughly $4 billion EV battery plant in the U.S., according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> The Japanese company is looking at Oklahoma as the location for its new plant, though there are no guarantees that an agreement will be reached, the people said


https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-s...495847?mod=mhp

----------


## David

Makes me wonder if this is a reaction to the climate bill, it has significant carrots in it for on-shoring the electrification supply chain and unless I am mistaken that should include battery plants.

----------


## shavethewhales

That's extremely interesting, but I'm not holding my breath. Would be amazing to still get something after all this. I'm sure the recent bills have a big impact on this decision, plus the general tailwinds of EV adoption picking up steam no matter what the future political climate will be. I'm going to guess they still want everything we offered them though...

On my recent trip to LA I was amazed at how many Teslas were on the street. It seemed like every other car was a Tesla. I think that brand is absolutely taking a hit due to the CEO's antics, but I know I for one am still looking for an economy electric vehicle for my next car.

----------


## BG918

> That's extremely interesting, but I'm not holding my breath. Would be amazing to still get something after all this. I'm sure the recent bills have a big impact on this decision, plus the general tailwinds of EV adoption picking up steam no matter what the future political climate will be. I'm going to guess they still want everything we offered them though...
> 
> On my recent trip to LA I was amazed at how many Teslas were on the street. It seemed like every other car was a Tesla. I think that brand is absolutely taking a hit due to the CEO's antics, but I know I for one am still looking for an economy electric vehicle for my next car.


I was in Orange County in March and thought the same thing, every other car was an EV.  Lots of Tesla, also Rivian and others.  Different world than Oklahoma, or the rest of the country for that matter

----------


## TheTravellers

> That's extremely interesting, but I'm not holding my breath. Would be amazing to still get something after all this. I'm sure the recent bills have a big impact on this decision, plus the general tailwinds of EV adoption picking up steam no matter what the future political climate will be. I'm going to guess they still want everything we offered them though...
> 
> On my recent trip to LA I was amazed at how many Teslas were on the street. It seemed like every other car was a Tesla. I think that brand is absolutely taking a hit due to the CEO's antics, but I know I for one am still looking for an economy electric vehicle for my next car.


I believe the MINI is the cheapest one out there, starts at $30K.  I love mine, but it does have some things that some could consider drawbacks (shorter range, size).

----------


## therhett17

https://www.pcmag.com/news/panasonic...-battery-plant

----------


## formerly405Tulsan

Why would they do two $4 billion plants instead of one $8 billion plant?

----------


## chssooner

> Why would they do two $4 billion plants instead of one $8 billion plant?


Hard to find the skilled labor for a plant that big, is my first thought.

----------


## ChrisHayes

> Hard to find the skilled labor for a plant that big, is my first thought.


That might have something to do with it, but logistics and supply chains are probably a bigger part of the equation.

----------


## jccouger

> Makes me wonder if this is a reaction to the climate bill, it has significant carrots in it for on-shoring the electrification supply chain and unless I am mistaken that should include battery plants.


Bingo, this video has a pretty good breakdown of the benefits from the climate bill that just passed 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv4OvGxAL6o

----------


## jccouger

Also, I doubt Kansas would offer a ton more incentive to build a 8 billion dollar plant as opposed to the 4 billion one. At least not much more than Oklahoma would offer. 

So they might as well build a plant in Kansas to collect the benefits, and then build another in Oklahoma to also collect the benefits we offered them.

----------


## gjl

14,2 million cars in California. 121000 are Teslas. They have a ways to go.

----------


## Laramie

> Also, I doubt Kansas would offer a ton more incentive to build a 8 billion dollar plant as opposed to the 4 billion one. At least not much more than Oklahoma would offer. 
> 
> *So they might as well build a plant in Kansas to collect the benefits, and then build another in Oklahoma to also collect the benefits we offered them.*


Agree %100.

Why hasn't Governor Sttit pitched Oklahoma City  as a candidate for this 2nd or 3rd plant.

----------


## ChrisHayes

> Agree %100.
> 
> Why hasn't Governor Sttit pitched Oklahoma City  as a candidate for this 2nd or 3rd plant.


While I'd like to see it in OKC, I'd prefer it at Mid America. Spread the development around so more of the state benefits

----------


## Laramie

Understand your spread on developments.

While Sttit is trying to target Canoo and the Panasonic Battery Plant as a package; Canoo moving its headquarters to Bentonville and opening facilities in Northwest Arkansas and Oklahoma--Bentonville is 30 minutes from Fayetteville (University of Arkansas).

Does Canoo have the funds without hitching its wagon to Walmart. 

This whole things smells rotten.

----------


## chssooner

> Agree %100.
> 
> Why hasn't Governor Sttit pitched Oklahoma City  as a candidate for this 2nd or 3rd plant.


Because his Modus Operandi is to push things to Tulsa at the state's detriment. Pushing Tulsa vs. Austin was like putting Alabama vs Long Beach State in football. Put OKC against Austin, there is at least a punchers chance.

----------


## Jake

The Mid-America site is situated in a location that’s conducive for plants like that. It’s not really that deep.

----------


## Laramie

> Because his Modus Operandi is to push things to Tulsa at the state's detriment. Pushing Tulsa vs. Austin was like putting Alabama vs Long Beach State in football. Put OKC against Austin, there is at least a punchers chance.


Thank you, Chssooner:

OKC would have been a much better opponent vs Austin, who didn't want the plant in their back yard because it hurt
their Silicon Valley image.

Is this the same Governor Sttit who said he was going to make Oklahoma a TOP TEN STATE in numerous categories . . .

----------


## chssooner

> Thank you, Chssooner:
> 
> OKC would have been a much better opponent vs Austin, who didn't want the plant in their back yard because it hurt
> their Silicon Valley image.
> 
> Is this the same Governor Sttit who said he was going to make Oklahoma a TOP TEN STATE in numerous categories . . .


it is a top 10 state, just in every wrong metric. And a bottom 10 state in the right metrics.

----------


## dcsooner

> it is a top 10 state, just in every wrong metric. And a bottom 10 state in the right metrics.


+1

----------


## jccouger

https://www.hffinancial.com/advanced...uction-credit/

----------


## Anonymous.

> https://www.hffinancial.com/advanced...uction-credit/


That article straight up says they selected OK for the next plant. 

I really would like to see it somewhere W of OKC, but you guys are probably right that it is basically going to take advantage of the initial plant proposal near Tulsa.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Because his Modus Operandi is to push things to Tulsa at the state's detriment. Pushing Tulsa vs. Austin was like putting Alabama vs Long Beach State in football. Put OKC against Austin, there is at least a punchers chance.


LOL. No. The site was selected due to its proximity to the port, rail lines, and other ground transportation as we as cheap hydroelectric power. NEOK is more competitive with Austin then OKC would be based on that. Some of you guys are a little clueless as to what anything outside of OKC in the state has to offer.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Thank you, Chssooner:
> 
> OKC would have been a much better opponent vs Austin, who didn't want the plant in their back yard because it hurt
> their Silicon Valley image.
> 
> Is this the same Governor Sttit who said he was going to make Oklahoma a TOP TEN STATE in numerous categories . . .


Love the enthusiasm, but its misguided. OKC is not a a better location for this plant.

----------


## chssooner

> LOL. No. The site was selected due to its proximity to the port, rail lines, and other ground transportation as we as cheap hydroelectric power. NEOK is more competitive with Austin then OKC would be based on that. Some of you guys are a little clueless as to what anything outside of OKC in the state has to offer.


No, it's just because you never hear Stitt praising and recruiting companies to OKC, yet he waxes poetic about Tulsa and the surrounding area. Nowhere close to even. OKC accomplishes a lot of their job creation in spite of the state, not with their help.

I want Tulsa to succeed. But not at the expense of OKC. Both can thrive, but you wouldn't know that given how much Stitt hypes Tulsa.

----------


## Jake

> No, it's just because you never hear Stitt praising and recruiting companies to OKC, yet he waxes poetic about Tulsa and the surrounding area. Nowhere close to even. OKC accomplishes a lot of their job creation in spite of the state, not with their help.
> 
> I want Tulsa to succeed. But not at the expense of OKC. Both can thrive, but you wouldn't know that given how much Stitt hypes Tulsa.


Other than the Telsa and Panasonic things, how has Stitt "hyped up" Tulsa in the past? Genuine question.

----------


## chssooner

> Other than the Telsa and Panasonic things, how has Stitt "hyped up" Tulsa in the past? Genuine question.


That's more than any governor I can ever remember getting involved in a public sense in major recruitments like that.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

IMO, just let Tulsa have their moment. Stitt is a huge proponent of the Access Oklahoma Turnpike Expansion which will greatly increase infrastructure investment in and around OKC much more than Tulsa. The other candidate for governor doesn’t support it. Let Tulsa get theirs because they need it there isn’t much happening up there other than a few small projects. OKC has much more momentum going. Tulsa needs a boost.

----------


## shavethewhales

OKC has enjoyed many new developments and new business and will continue to do so with or without the governor's help. I think some of the frustration here comes from the fact that the efforts to lure a big company to NE OK are more flashy and publicized than other things happening around the state and in OKC. This particular location is unusually well suited to particular types of large manufacturing facilities, and we need to shoot for the best that we can get instead of letting surrounding states get all the major business. I think any effort to lure a major employer to OK should be lauded, and I expect any governor to show their support. 

OKC doesn't really need to moonshot anything, but if the opportunity comes up for something I'm sure Stitt would make his usual show of support that any governor is basically required to do. There are several big companies HQ'd in OKC already and they are rapidly expanding, not to mention the smaller organic growth all around. OKC is among the fastest growing cities in the country. Tulsa is trying to hang on to relevancy and get a shot in the arm because everyone around us is growing faster than we are. 


Getting back to the topic at hand, several outlets are indeed making it sound like Panasonic is going to give us something. Stitt isn't rushing to say we are getting it, but he is keeping hope alive. Sounds like we'll end up forking over a huge sum of money for a smaller facility, but we need something in any case. https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-an...ce=mp-homepage

----------


## BG918

Getting a battery factory at MAIP, whether it be Panasonic or another company, is a key component to building an EV manufacturing cluster and mobility hub.  This is a state initiative with NW Arkansas along Hwy 412: https://www.compositesworld.com/news...y-national-hub  It focuses the manufacturing at MAIP and R&D in Tulsa (partnering with OSU) and Fayetteville (partnering with UA).

No one knows what will ultimately happen with Canoo but a battery plant and any supply chain facilities that surround it  makes the site more attractive to future companies.

----------


## Swake

NW Arkansas is one of the fast growing metros in the US and is the same distance from Tulsa as Oklahoma City. The plan for the Tulsa-NW Arkansas corridor being a tech hub focused on EVs is part of the reason US-412 is being upgraded to an Interstate as I-50 or whatever.

----------


## ChrisHayes

> IMO, just let Tulsa have their moment. Stitt is a huge proponent of the Access Oklahoma Turnpike Expansion which will greatly increase infrastructure investment in and around OKC much more than Tulsa. The other candidate for governor doesn’t support it. Let Tulsa get theirs because they need it there isn’t much happening up there other than a few small projects. OKC has much more momentum going. Tulsa needs a boost.


Exactly. I've seen countless comments over the years about how there needs to be growth all over the state and not just OKC. Then, whenever there's the potential for a game changer in the state's second largest metro, people freak out and want it on OKC. I get it to a degree, but I would much rather see big industrial undertakings like this all over the state. I'm talking Tulsa, Ardmore, Lawton, Woodward, and Enid. Get the entire state booming and not just OKC.

----------


## Bunty

> Exactly. I've seen countless comments over the years about how there needs to be growth all over the state and not just OKC. Then, whenever there's the potential for a game changer in the state's second largest metro, people freak out and want it on OKC. I get it to a degree, but I would much rather see big industrial undertakings like this all over the state. I'm talking Tulsa, Ardmore, Lawton, Woodward, and Enid. Get the entire state booming and not just OKC.


 Stillwater, too, since unlike Ardmore, Woodward and Enid, it has daily passenger airline access to DFW.   The Armstrong flooring plant that recently shut down could use a new tenant.

----------


## Paule4ou

> Also, I doubt Kansas would offer a ton more incentive to build a 8 billion dollar plant as opposed to the 4 billion one. At least not much more than Oklahoma would offer. 
> 
> So they might as well build a plant in Kansas to collect the benefits, and then build another in Oklahoma to also collect the benefits we offered them.


Ive got some contacts in Topeka and they tell me that Kansas is throwing the book at them to get the second facility there as well.and most likely are the front runner.

----------


## Jake

> Ive got some contacts in Topeka and they tell me that Kansas is throwing the book at them to get the second facility there as well.and most likely are the front runner.


Wouldn't surprise me to see Oklahoma completely blow it and lose out. Again.

----------


## chssooner

> Wouldn't surprise me to see Oklahoma completely blow it and lose out. Again.


Yeah, I don't think Kansas is getting another one. They wouldn't have basically put out that OK was a prohibitive favorite without Panasonic allowing it, and likely something being signed.

----------


## chssooner

> I’ve got some contacts in Topeka and they tell me that Kansas is throwing the book at them to get the second facility there as well….and most likely are the front runner.


So about 50 different articles or press releases are lying? Got it.

----------


## baralheia

> So about 50 different articles or press releases are lying? Got it.


I don't read it as lying, just that until contracts are signed, nothing is set in stone. Panasonic may have let slip to a reporter that they were looking at Oklahoma - probably because of our prior proposal - but that could change depending on the situation. All the reporting I am finding at first glance is crediting the _Wall Street Journal_ for breaking the story, and in WSJ's article it says this (emphasis mine):




> TOKYO—Panasonic Holdings Corp., PCRFY 1.63%▲ a supplier to electric-vehicle maker Tesla Inc., TSLA -0.75%▼ is in discussions to build an additional roughly $4 billion EV battery plant in the U.S., according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> The Japanese company is looking at Oklahoma as the location for its new plant, *though there are no guarantees that an agreement will be reached*, the people said.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-s...-s-11661495847

----------


## chssooner

> I don't read it as lying, just that until contracts are signed, nothing is set in stone. Panasonic may have let slip to a reporter that they were looking at Oklahoma - probably because of our prior proposal - but that could change depending on the situation. All the reporting I am finding at first glance is crediting the _Wall Street Journal_ for breaking the story, and in WSJ's article it says this (emphasis mine):
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-s...-s-11661495847


The article in post 350 makes it seem like there is far more than hearsay.

----------


## Bunty

> Wouldn't surprise me to see Oklahoma completely blow it and lose out. Again.


As brought up before the lack of a big enough work force for Panasonic was cited as one reason why Oklahoma was turned down as told at an interim study at the state capitol.  So, it's also important to entice new companies with a large well-qualified workforce.  I think it surely reflects Oklahoma's lack of desire to do a better job of supporting education with no sign of things getting better, especially if out of state employers don't think promoting private education is the right direction to go.  Another problem causing worker shortages is that Texas companies are enticing Oklahomans with higher pay to come.  The article concludes with State Rep. Kevin McDugle, R-Broken Arrow, said he’s looking at developing an incentive program to bring workers from other states to Oklahoma. The program could offer new graduates who work in biotechnical or engineering fields four years of income tax-free earnings.

https://www.stwnewspress.com/oklahom...e1262c5f8.html

----------


## Jersey Boss

The leading candidate for School Super is campaigning on refusing federal edication dollars for education as well as advocating for the loss of career of any teacher that strays from conservative orthadoxy.
Strong selling points for tech companies.

----------


## Bunty

No, Oklahoma schools don't need defunded to any extent, unless we don't want to attract industry, especially in high tech.  Top education official mulls rejecting federal funds as districts worry about lost revenue:  https://www.stwnewspress.com/oklahom...db77fb280.html

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Article from Teslarati(not exactly a source I’d taken with anything more than a grain of salt from) about the groundbreaking of the factory in De Soto. They mentioned the potential Oklahoma sites but never mentioned the possibility of a second site. 

https://www.teslarati.com/panasonic-...-kansas-plant/

----------


## BG918

Canoo plans to build a 3200 mwh battery plant at MAIP.  Panasonic is much larger at at 30,000 mwh.  It will be interesting to see if they end up building a second plant.  

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ma-2022-11-02/

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## FighttheGoodFight

Saw a walmart branded Canoo driving around the metro last week. Testing Testing

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