# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  University Town Center

## G.Walker

Ok, so I went straight to the source and emailed Maureen Hammond, who is the Director of Operations for the Norman Economic Development Coalition, on the status of University North Park, and this was her response:  

NEDC plans to move forward with Phase I development of UNP Corporate Centre this summer.  The City of Norman can provide you with an update on Legacy Park and the lifestyle center.  Their main number is 321-1600.  I hope this helps.

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## twade

> Ok, so I went straight to the source and emailed Maureen Hammond, who is the Director of Operations for the Norman Economic Development Coalition, on the status of University North Park, and this was her response:  
> 
> NEDC plans to move forward with Phase I development of UNP Corporate Centre this summer.  The City of Norman can provide you with an update on Legacy Park and the lifestyle center.  Their main number is 321-1600.  I hope this helps.


What did they say about Legacy Park and the lifestyle center when you talked to them?

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## G.Walker

They didn't say anything about the Legacy Park or Lifestyle Center, I suppose its on hold, due to budget issues with the City of Norman. The reason why the corporate campus is moving forward is because the Norman Economic Development Coalition has big demand for the office spaces, and NEDC is doing the construction.

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## kwash

so what about this movie theatre thats also suppose ot be in university park or was that scrapped also?

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## rcjunkie

> so what about this movie theater thats also suppose ot be in university park or was that scrapped also?


There was never a movie theater planned for N. Park.

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## G.Walker

There was a movie theater planned for the UNP in the Lifestyle Center, in conjunction with an open air shopping mall. Nothing has been scrapped, just on hold.

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## kwash

so when do you think they will finally start on this open air mall/lifestyle center and movie theatre project, because norman needs a theatre badly.

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## G.Walker

> so when do you think they will finally start on this open air mall/lifestyle center and movie theatre project, because norman needs a theatre badly.


I really don't believe they will start Corporate Centre, Legacy Park, and LifeStyle Center at the same time. Since phase 1 of Corporate Centre breaks ground this summer, I wouldn't expect Legacy Park, and Lifestyle Center to break ground until next year, more likely Spring/Summer 2011, but I do expect for Legacy Park and LifeStyle Center to be done simultaneously.

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## twade

Does anyone know if Phase 1 of Corporate Centre includes six buildings, or is the photo on the Norman Economic Development website a master plan?

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## G.Walker

> Does anyone know if Phase 1 of Corporate Centre includes six buildings, or is the photo on the Norman Economic Development website a master plan?


Yes, Phase 1 includes six buildings

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## cad_poke

> There was never a movie theater planned for N. Park.


I've got a pdf from Sooner Investments/Colleit Assoc. that says differerent about the theater.

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## dop

I think it is planned to be an upscale type indepent movies theatre.

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## Spartan

I wish, but I won't hold my breath. My understanding is that they would shoot for any kind of theater they could land.

Legacy Park is on hold. The City of Norman is moving forward with other park projects and those are ahead of Legacy at the moment.

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## Mr T

Does anyone know what happened at the last TIF oversight meeting?  I was under the impression that it was held April 20th?

The Transcript hasn't had any reporting on it, and the Norman official website seems to run months behind.

I thought all of the estimates and bids expired April 10th.  It seems that both the developer and OU are out of money?  I remember the mayor saying that it wasn't a problem, the deadlines would be met, no-one would be let out of any obligations.

Nothing has been reported since the election that I can find.  All I have seen is the letter this weekend from Mr. Holyfield discussing the meeting.  The situation appears dire.  When are they planning on telling people what is happening?  Does anyone know what is happening?

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## blangtang

Yeah, I'll admit I'm a bit out of the loop (maybe thats how the local paper wants it) , but I'll say I have to agree with the general sentiment in the following Op-Ed that Mr T referenced. The last time i visited the area was to eat in April at the Pei Wei, whose quality has gone downfill since first opening.   :Doh: 

I still remember the discussion of the high quality development, etc, etc. that this TIF would bring.   the city seems to have been jived talked on this one, by OU and the developer, not to mention the wallop of the national economy doing its fair share.  I'd like to know whats really going on...

I still dont understand why the city traded ownership of the convention center attached to the Embassy Suites for the  bridge to Brookhaven - that might actually be a good deal for the city in the long run if the district doesnt fully develop and the Embassy Suites gets stuck with an underutilized convention center.  But i'm still not convinced construction of the  bridge was necessary.  anyway...

May 22, 2010
City should cut its losses on TIF

NORMAN  Editor, The Transcript:

At the most recent University Park (UNP) TIF Oversight Committee meeting some members expressed concern and frustration over the status of the TIF and agreement with the developer. It appears that the developer has not met the terms and conditions of all his obligations as provided in the TIF agreement.

The public was told that this would be a spectacular development with high end retailers that would draw consumers from Dallas to Kansas City. What we have is a strip mall that has for the most part retailers in many other parts of the city that duplicate products sold on the TIF.

The major difference in the retail sales is that only a portion of the sales tax (40 percent) generated at the TIF goes into the Citys general fund. The retailers outside of the TIF who played by the rules and paid for their own infrastructure are having customers siphoned off from their respective business. In addition, they are subsidizing their competition with their own tax dollars. These are tax funds being diverted to the TIF that should be going to the general fund to pay employee salaries and maintain the city's essential services.

With the citys employees facing loss of jobs because of the alleged budget crises, there is no reason why the City should not cut its losses and end its partnership with the developer. The City would begin to receive available tax revenues at the UNP. The public should insist the City Council do so now.

Don Holyfield

Norman

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## Mr T

Thanks for linking the letter!  I really need to write down how to do that!

Mr. Holyfield is correct - those stores are cannibalizing, not adding value.  We already had a pet store and an office store and stores that sell failed clothing lines.  We certainly had more than enough stores selling cheap plastic shoes from China.  The petroleum smell in the sports store is enough to knock you over.  I've noticed, the few times I have been dragged in there, that the employees all cough.

All of the original stores of this nature, whether I enjoy them or not, paid their own way.  If I were them I would be seriously angry.

Vital tax money is wasted while faithful City employees lose their jobs and benefits.  Employees blame the City, city council blamed the newspaper, and the newspaper blamed the employees for not figuring it out themselves.

I would dearly love to know why Henry Baskeyfield removed the endorsement from Hal Ezell.  What was he promised?

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## king183

> I would dearly love to know why Henry Baskeyfield removed the endorsement from Hal Ezell.  What was he promised?


That's a very good question. I've heard a lot of people recently express regret at the outcome of that election for precisely some of the reasons discussed here about the TIF.   I think Hollyfields letter hits the nail on the head.

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## Spartan

> Yeah, I'll admit I'm a bit out of the loop (maybe thats how the local paper wants it) , but I'll say I have to agree with the general sentiment in the following Op-Ed that Mr T referenced. The last time i visited the area was to eat in April at the Pei Wei, whose quality has gone downfill since first opening.  
> 
> I still remember the discussion of the high quality development, etc, etc. that this TIF would bring.   the city seems to have been jived talked on this one, by OU and the developer, not to mention the wallop of the national economy doing its fair share.  I'd like to know whats really going on...
> 
> I still dont understand why the city traded ownership of the convention center attached to the Embassy Suites for the  bridge to Brookhaven - that might actually be a good deal for the city in the long run if the district doesnt fully develop and the Embassy Suites gets stuck with an underutilized convention center.  But i'm still not convinced construction of the  bridge was necessary.  anyway...
> 
> May 22, 2010
> City should cut its losses on TIF
> 
> ...


Mr. Holyfield is spot-on. These developers need to be held to what they originally said they would do, or have their TIF revoked. If having their TIF revoked doesn't make them act, then they need to lose the land. That goes for Sooner Investments or whatever the hell company is the developer, AND for OU.

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## kwash

Now there is a huge rumor of hollywood theatres being completly renovated in september, so i guess that officially means the theatre in UNP has been scrapped. I was even told that UNP put a bid on The Warren back before they settled on moore, but lost the bid obviosuly. So now most norman movie goers spend their money in moore, because look at that parking lot over at hollywood and its empty even on weekends.

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## G.Walker

> Now there is a huge rumor of hollywood theatres being completly renovated in september, so i guess that officially means the theatre in UNP has been scrapped. I was even told that UNP put a bid on The Warren back before they settled on moore, but lost the bid obviosuly. So now most norman movie goers spend their money in moore, because look at that parking lot over at hollywood and its empty even on weekends.


I live in Norman, and I don't think its bad at all to have Warren in Moore, we can't have everything, and I don't mind driving a couple miles up the road for a nice movie theater like The Warren. I know people who drive from OKC and Midwest City to go to The Warren, its just a major attraction, and people would go there, whereever it was located.

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## king183

> I live in Norman, and I don't think its bad at all to have Warren in Moore, we can't have everything, and I don't mind driving a couple miles up the road for a nice movie theater like The Warren. I know people who drive from OKC and Midwest City to go to The Warren, its just a major attraction, and people would go there, whereever it was located.


It's true we lost the bid, partly because our city leaders were very, uh, unaccommodating with Warren business group.  While I understand what you're saying, G., it is also undeniable we're losing a lot of business and sale tax dollars to Moore.  The Fort Thunder Harley Davidson shop next door to the Warren was also going to come to Norman (they were going wherever Warren went), so we lost that too.  

Our city leaders should be more receptive (reasonably, of course) to such businesses in the future, but this one is done and we lost. Let's look forward to getting the next big one looking to move to town.

If the Hollywood is renovated, that would be great news because it's dearly needs it.  I would consider going back.  Perhaps they'll add an IMAX--that would really help them compete with Warren.

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## rcjunkie

> It's true we lost the bid, partly because our city leaders were very, uh, unaccommodating with Warren business group.  While I understand what you're saying, G., it is also undeniable we're losing a lot of business and sale tax dollars to Moore.  The Fort Thunder Harley Davidson shop next door to the Warren was also going to come to Norman (they were going wherever Warren went), so we lost that too. 
> 
> Our city leaders should be more receptive (reasonably, of course) to such businesses in the future, but this one is done and we lost. Let's look forward to getting the next big one looking to move to town.
> 
> If the Hollywood is renovated, that would be great news because it's dearly needs it.  I would consider going back.  Perhaps they'll add an IMAX--that would really help them compete with Warren.


I can tell you as a former Ft. Thunder Employee, this statement is 100% false, Norman was never considered when Bryan's/Ft. Thunder was looking for the right place to build their new store. You need a new source for you information.

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## king183

Well, glad to hear it from you.  But my source was the Norman City Council--they've spoken about this several times.  So either you're wrong or they were badly misinformed about Ft. Thunder.  And I wouldn't be surprised if it was them who were misinformed.

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## Spartan

Well keep in mind that Norman is not exactly the most pro-development city in the world in the first place.

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## onthestrip

The fact that the developer said the center will draw people from Kansas City and Dallas should have been a red flag.  Like Dallas and KC folks need to come to Norman to shop, even if upscale retailers did locate in UNP.

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## Shake2005

> The fact that the developer said the center will draw people from Kansas City and Dallas should have been a red flag.  Like Dallas and KC folks need to come to Norman to shop, even if upscale retailers did locate in UNP.


The best indicator on if a developer is lying is if they are speaking.

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## kevinpate

> The best indicator on if a developer is lying is if they are speaking.


breathing is a close second at times

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## Spartan

Maybe he was talking to Nordstrom.

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## venture

> If the Hollywood is renovated, that would be great news because it's dearly needs it.  I would consider going back.  Perhaps they'll add an IMAX--that would really help them compete with Warren.


The best thing they could do, is just rebuild at UNP and tear the old one down. Then they can fix that stupid intersection along the service road. Also it would open up for that parcel of land to be used for either a couple more restaurants (cause we don't have enough obviously /sarcasm) or another hotel.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

> There was never a movie theater planned for N. Park.





> I can tell you as a former Ft. Thunder Employee, this statement is 100% false, Norman was never considered when Bryan's/Ft. Thunder was looking for the right place to build their new store. You need a new source for you information.


Based upon the first quote and how you were proved wrong, I am going to go ahead and say you are the one that needs a new source for your information, not king.

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## Mr T

Does anyone know why the City keeps cancelling the TIF oversight committee meetings?  Four of the last five at least have been cancelled.

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## dismayed

> The best thing they could do, is just rebuild at UNP and tear the old one down. Then they can fix that stupid intersection along the service road. Also it would open up for that parcel of land to be used for either a couple more restaurants (cause we don't have enough obviously /sarcasm) or another hotel.


All the roads around the UNP are very strange.  I have not been able to figure out what they were thinking.

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## okcustu

I was suspicious of the project from the beginning. Rarely do directions to Louis Vuitton stores begin with "make a right at the Dress Barn and keep going until you see TJ Maxx"

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## Jesseda

lol i thought the same thing, how can target, tjmax petco, kohls etc be part of the upscale development..

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## gamecock

Because Target, TJ Maxx, Petco, and Kohls were never intended to be part of the upscale development . . .

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## venture

Pretty obvious the developers made a bit of a mistake not getting the lifestyle center portion of UNP developed first.  Most of these centers that I've seen get developed have done the lifestyle center before the surrounding pad sites...we just got messed with on this one.

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## G.Walker

Sent email to the Norman Economic Development Coalition regarding the University North Park Corporate Center, and this is what they had to say:

_"I appreciate your support of economic development.  

 The project is still mainly the same as it concerns the office park.  The national economy has really kept us from recruiting the out of town employers we had hoped for, but we currently have some activity.  

 We have a total of 60 acres and we are working on using the last 30 for an advanced manufacturing center concept.  We are close to our first project in that area.  I have attached our brochure which provides more information.  

 Please let our office know if we can provide additional information."  

 Don
_

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## ChargerAg

that sounds horrible.   

Where is the discount tire that we were promised.

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## rcjunkie

> that sounds horrible.   
> 
> Where is the discount tire that we were promised.


Nothing says "High End" shopping like Discount Tire.

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## venture

It is obviously time for them to reconsider the plan for UNP. They really should negotiate a plan with GGP, who owns Sooner Mall, to construct the lifestyle portion of UNP and relocate all the stores from Sooner. Then I would go through there and tear down Sooner Mall and redevelop it as a commercial business park - something we don't have much of here. One that would fill up, I would look at the area south of Main Street and start expanding through there and even relocate the strip mall stores (not the restaurants) to UNP. 

When I say business park, I'm thinking something on the scale of: http://www.arrowheadpark.org/APA%20W...dpark-2010.pdf

Probably highly unrealistic, but concentrating the bulk of the retail/shopping in one dense location would help the project overall. Then you have the ability to redevelop land as a high density business park that would increase the commercial population of the city and assist with tax revenue (and probably values) even more.

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## ou48A

I hope the new Rock Creek I-35 bridge helps relieve some of the congestion on west Robinson

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## rcjunkie

> I hope the new Rock Creek I-35 bridge helps relieve some of the congestion on west Robinson


It should, the traffic at Robinson and I-35 is horrible.

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## Spartan

This is the progression of this project.

Large mixed-use lifestyle center > Project on hold, give us another year > Just Target strip mall only > Can't get lifestyle center tenants, but here's Discount Tire and Academy > Office portion ready to go > Oops can't get discount tire, office park having trouble now > Instead of office park, howabout a nice new "advanced manufacturing center" instead? > Utter fail?? > Citizens revolt and get their money back?

Maybe just wishful thinking..

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## BG918

I'm still of the opinion that UNP stays a big box center south of Rock Creek (which will soon connect across I-35) and then a mix of offices and higher density residential (apartments) north of Rock Creek to Robinson.  There is an opportunity there to have good access to I-35 for residential (esp. for those commuting to OKC) and airport frontage on the east side creates some unique opportunities for aviation-related businesses.

Sooner Mall should remain as it is but should try to lure another retail anchor such as Macy's and maintain or slightly expand their current offering of stores.  There is no reason, IMO, for Sooner Mall to not be on par with at least Quail Springs as far as small-format retail offerings.  It is the primary retail center for the south metro..

Concentrate the few high-end retail shops that Norman could actually support in a new mixed-use development along University in Campus Corner.  Something similar to what they have done along Crockett/West 7th in Fort Worth with stores, restaurants, a small hotel and movie theater.

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## ChargerAg

When did the discount tire deal fall through?

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## venture

Call me the eternal optimist...obviously though not with the current city leadership. UNP can definitely still be a retail powerhouse if they would work with some additional developers. I've seen new malls/lifestyle centers go up in the rust belt, where economies are in the tank, and absolutely thrive. There is no reason why something couldn't be done with GGP to move the stores in Sooner to a new lifestyle center/mall in UNP - Shops at North Park or whatever you want to call it. Bulldoze Sooner Mall and create a business park. The additional corporate density will help with property values, city income, and just the overall success of the city. Once it gets to a certain point, expand it south along Ed Noble in a mixed residential/commercial format. 

Getting pretty off track here I know, but once this is all in place and the corporate population is growing, would extend (and widen) the north-south runway at Westheimer to around 7500' to permit for larger corporate aircraft to fly directly into Norman (granted a lot do now) from distances farther away. Not to mention, also allows OU to travel from the airport on chartered aircraft instead of going to Will Rogers. Of course, I can just hear the complaints now when the first 757 comes into Westheimer.

Anyway, it really is about reinventing Norman to be more self sufficient, which it has the ability to...but Rosenthal needs to wake up and actually do something.

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## BG918

> Anyway, it really is about reinventing Norman to be more self sufficient, which it has the ability to...but Rosenthal needs to wake up and actually do something.


I don't have the same vision as you on several things, including UNP/Sooner Mall and Lindsey St, but I completely agree with your statement above.  Norman has a lot of potential as a city independent, but still closely tied, to OKC but needs more effective leadership.  The I-35 corridor is important but so is the central core and campus area, the part of Norman that makes it unique from anywhere else.  We both want to see Norman prosper.

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## dop

I keep hearing about the bad economy, but the outlet mall and Warren Theatre were built close by.  Those may have worked pretty well at UNP?!  May have drawn some people (and money) to Norman.

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## BG918

> I keep hearing about the bad economy, but the outlet mall and Warren Theatre were built close by.  Those may have worked pretty well at UNP?!  May have drawn some people (and money) to Norman.


Agree, those would've done well and fit in well at UNP.  But it didn't happen.

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## venture

They probably didn't even think about it. However, I could see Warren wanting Moore over Norman to be a bit closer to pull from North OKC.

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## rcjunkie

> This is the progression of this project.
> 
> Large mixed-use lifestyle center > Project on hold, give us another year > Just Target strip mall only > Can't get lifestyle center tenants, but here's Discount Tire and Academy > Office portion ready to go > Oops can't get discount tire, office park having trouble now > Instead of office park, howabout a nice new "advanced manufacturing center" instead? > Utter fail?? > Citizens revolt and get their money back?
> 
> Maybe just wishful thinking..


The "advanced manufacturing center" has always been a compoent of this development. The far N. section (closer to Tecumseh Rd.) was the section identified for this land use segment.

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## Questor

> They probably didn't even think about it. However, I could see Warren wanting Moore over Norman to be a bit closer to pull from North OKC.


I have no idea if this is true, but a business owner in UNP once told me that the Warren was initially supposed to go into UNP but that the city had such ridiculous regulations they eventually started looking elsewhere.  Elsewhere ended up being Moore because of all their incentives.  One has to wonder if there is some truth to that when you consider the number of plans that have been released showing businesses that ultimately went to Moore instead, Five Guys being a good example.

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## ChargerAg

> I have no idea if this is true, but a business owner in UNP once told me that the Warren was initially supposed to go into UNP but that the city had such ridiculous regulations they eventually started looking elsewhere.  Elsewhere ended up being Moore because of all their incentives.  One has to wonder if there is some truth to that when you consider the number of plans that have been released showing businesses that ultimately went to Moore instead, Five Guys being a good example.


So we aren't getting the 5 guys anymore?

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## progressiveboy

> So we aren't getting the 5 guys anymore?


 I am pretty sure Norman will still be getting a 5 Guys Burgers because their website shows a location "Coming Soon" to Norman. I hope that Norman will eventually step up to the plate and get a few decent shops in that development. UNP has been somewhat of a dissapointment.

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## rcjunkie

> So we aren't getting the 5 guys anymore?


5 Guys is going in the same area (under construction) as Zio's, should open early fall.

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## venture

> I have no idea if this is true, but a business owner in UNP once told me that the Warren was initially supposed to go into UNP but that the city had such ridiculous regulations they eventually started looking elsewhere.  Elsewhere ended up being Moore because of all their incentives.  One has to wonder if there is some truth to that when you consider the number of plans that have been released showing businesses that ultimately went to Moore instead, Five Guys being a good example.


Yeah, it is definitely a trend that Norman is its biggest enemy when it comes to landing new businesses. There is no reason Norman isn't able to compete, effectively, to land companies that are going to OKC or the other suburbs. Unfortunately the mayor and council haven't really shown much willingness to change the way they do business.

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## dop

I saw where OKC gave an incentive of 7 million plus to attract the outlet mall.  Norman would never offer any incentive money...the council would argue about natural development and that everyone should be treated fairly, the little guy would get cheated, and that they could not afford it! This incentive money is small change in comparison to the return OKC will get from it.

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## OKCNDN

> that sounds horrible.   
> 
> Where is the discount tire that we were promised.


Discount Tire is anything but...

They have the highest prices around.  Always a little pushy too.  "No reason to go anywhere else, we have the lowest prices anywhere".  The thing about tires is many shops are the only places to get certain tires, not brands but models.  You can't comparison shop.  That's my experience anyway.

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## venture

> I saw where OKC gave an incentive of 7 million plus to attract the outlet mall.  Norman would never offer any incentive money...the council would argue about natural development and that everyone should be treated fairly, the little guy would get cheated, and that they could not afford it! This incentive money is small change in comparison to the return OKC will get from it.


$7 million to get something like $50 million annually in sales tax revenue. Yeah...terrible. lol

There was a story in the Transcript or DOK about the outlet and the support OKC gave it to land the project. They were very honest about being aggressive to bring in businesses from suburbs to raise the city's sales tax revenues. So the situation for Norman is going to become...do they continue the current "natural development" philosophy and permit OKC and Moore to take business away, or play the same game and lure companies away from surrounding areas.

Eventually the city will need to decide - do they want to be proactive and grow, or settle being a commuter community supporting OKC's growing revenue base.

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## JimTrabersColostomyBag

> I saw where OKC gave an incentive of 7 million plus to attract the outlet mall.  Norman would never offer any incentive money...the council would argue about natural development and that everyone should be treated fairly, the little guy would get cheated, and that they could not afford it! This incentive money is small change in comparison to the return OKC will get from it.


RE: the little guy would get cheated..... ask all those eating establishments around the Warren Theatre if they would rather have the theatre there or an empty field.

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## metro

> I saw where OKC gave an incentive of 7 million plus to attract the outlet mall.  Norman would never offer any incentive money...the council would argue about natural development and that everyone should be treated fairly, the little guy would get cheated, and that they could not afford it! This incentive money is small change in comparison to the return OKC will get from it.


 The incentive was for tax credits so they could use it for advertising, like over a 5 or 10 year period.

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## Just the facts

> I was suspicious of the project from the beginning. Rarely do directions to Louis Vuitton stores begin with "make a right at the Dress Barn and keep going until you see TJ Maxx"


Check out St. Johns Town Center.  To get to Louis Vuitton you can enter by PetsMart, pass by Dress Barn, turn right at Target, turn right again at Dollar Tree, left at the ATT store, go around the traffic circle, and Louis Vuitton is just ahead on your right.

http://www.simon.com/mall/FloorPlan.aspx?id=857

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## venture

Can we just take that and copy it for UNP?

It is disturbing that even in Moore they are talking about a lifestyle center there now and we can get this stupid one built. Rosenthal seems to be sleeping.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...2997240&type=1

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## Just the facts

> Can we just take that and copy it for UNP?


St Johns Town Center has it is own screw-ups as well.  They have condos on site but they put a pond in-between it and the shopping which require people living on site to have to drive a 1/2 mile to go to a store that is 100 feet from their front door.

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## venture

That is pretty stupid. I'm all for water features...but work in a couple artsy/scenic bridges (walking and vehicle) to allow for easy connections and promote a neighborhood type setting.

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## Jesseda

went to ulta with the family this morning and i noticed that the rock creek bridge is now open.. So is there going to be anything new being built or announced for the unp area?

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## kevinpate

It's been open several weeks now.  The once planned office complex for that northern end of UNP seems to be, at best, in a coma.  The once planned, allegedly anyway, lifestyle center for the eastern part of UNP seems to be, at best, a long forgotten pipe dream.  Seems the current thinking is that nobody is building lifestyle centers anymore and they feel they missed out but are hopeful something else will work out.

Not the city's best laid plans all in all.  But as my bank moved there from Main I'll likely go over to that area more now.  Hadn't been much to date to make it worth the bother.

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## BG918

It would be good if they could at least finish the lake that was supposed to go in south of Academy.  The new bridge looks nice.

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## Questor

Another hotel and a Crest Foods are planned, but the developer is dragging his feet on turning over the land....

http://normantranscript.com/headline...under-scrutiny

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## ljbab728

It's interesting that the developer wants to alter pedestrian friendly areas to allow for more parking.  Is that area so busy that no one can find a place to park?

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## kevinpate

Followup on the Oct. 4 study session:

Norman city council members tonight ordered City Attorney Jeff Bryant  to let University North Park developers know there would be no further  negotiations until land for Legacy Park has been dedicated to the city  as promised. “The developer is not negotiating with the city in good faith,”  Council Member Hal Ezzell said. “The developer is playing games.”
 No members of the University Town Center development team were at the  study session meeting. The Transcript spoke to Stanton Nelson, a Norman  resident and member of the development team, by phone following the  meeting.
 “It’s more complicated than just the delivery of giving the land,”  Nelson said. “From my perspective, I want to see the park developed. I  believe it will be a benefit to the city. We want to see it happen. We  want to see an agreement made. The partnership is more than willing to  donate the land in order to make this a reality, but it’s more  complicated than that.”

Full article is at
http://normantranscript.com/headline...ark-dedication

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## venture

What I don't get is that the park was part of the plan agreed to at the beginning...so why is it more complicated now to just get that part done? 

Just screams of a developer that has/had no intention of following through on anything they agreed to and continue to develop a big box haven.

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## lasomeday

I am sure the developer has breached his agreement.  The land is owned by the city right?

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## kevinpate

> 5 Guys is going in the same area (under construction) as Zio's, should open early fall.


Driving by their site on my way elsewhere yesterday, they have Now Hiring signs hanging outside their entry. Apparently they are still on track for opening soon.

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## kevinpate

> The _theater is out and a cluster of hotels and a grocery store are  in_, reported University North Park Developer Bob Stearns of Sooner  Investments.


 (emphasis added)





> Stearns and architect Frank Goppold reported to city council members  on the changing vision for the TIF District development on 24th Avenue  Northwest. _Discussion revolved around plans for a town center, a concept  which replaces plans for a lifestyle center originally proposed_ for the  project.


 (emphasis added)







> Were excited about this cluster of hotels to anchor the village  center, Goppold said. He described the streetscape of the proposed  village center as reminiscent of a boulevard in Paris with a wide median  containing a double row of trees. ...



Rest is at:
http://normantranscript.com/headline...learer-for-TIF

----------


## venture

Read that in the paper this morning...looks like the buyout amount Hollywood wanted for the theater was insane. Which stinks because that place is a dump and they haven't done much to it for years. So a negative for Norman since tax dollars are going to Moore anyway and it likely won't stop. I guess the best hope for a new theater would be a tornado, fire, or Hollywood going bankrupt. LOL

Here is the development they are wanting to model the town center section after: http://www.birkdalevillage.net/

Which if we get something that looks like that, I'm perfectly good with. 

http://maps.google.com/maps?um=1&ie=...e&ved=0CAUQ_BI

It still has a lifestyle center feel to it, based on the ones I've been to. The store front/street parking that stores want can work like they have there. It is basically a typical downtown/uptown area with parallel parking in front of the stores with the main parking lots set off behind the stores. So I'm not entirely upset at all using Birkdale Village as a model.

At the end of the day though, if they follow through with that they are going to cause a lot of competition with General Growth's Sooner Mall. If they were smart, I would be talking with GGP about some joint working in developing UNP - moving stores over - and then redevelop Sooner Mall's area as a business park.

----------


## ljbab728

http://newsok.com/department-store-a...ad_story_title

----------


## Just the facts

> Here is the development they are wanting to model the town center section after: http://www.birkdalevillage.net/
> 
> Which if we get something that looks like that, I'm perfectly good with.


That development is okay, but it isn't great.  It does offer the chance to park once and walk from store to store, but no one is going to walk to the shopping center except for those that live on-site.  Now if they built 10 of those side by side they might have something.

----------


## G.Walker

> That development is okay, but it isn't great.  It does offer the chance to park once and walk from store to store, but no one is going to walk to the shopping center except for those that live on-site.  Now if they built 10 of those side by side they might have something.


I doubt it will be like Birkdale Village, Frank Goppold's work in centered around a more suburban, not urban feel, http://goppoldarchitecture.com/. He said it will be have a "village" feel, and as high as two stories on each side.

See: http://goppoldarchitecture.com/project-03.html#

Nonetheless, its a good addition to the area, and that its finally moving forward.

----------


## Just the facts

You know G.Walker, I am amazed at how developers try to portray the image of traditional neighborhood development with the project names they select and how they market the project, but then build auto-dependent suburban style projects.  Is there any larger an oxymoron than calling something a Town Center when 90% of the land is dedicated to parking and the only jobs are retail and hospitality.  What a joke.

Norman should have focused all this effort on downtown Norman where they didn't need to build all the infrastructre, had existing businesses ready to move in, and lots of people near by who could get there without having to drive a car.  With the money saved they could have put in a starter streetcar system.  Opportunity missed.

----------


## mcca7596

> See: http://goppoldarchitecture.com/project-03.html#


Interesting to note that other pictures are under the "on the boards" link, as well as upcoming projects in OKC and Edmond called Valencia Center and Bridges at Spring Creek, respectively.

----------


## venture

> I doubt it will be like Birkdale Village, Frank Goppold's work in centered around a more suburban, not urban feel, http://goppoldarchitecture.com/. He said it will be have a "village" feel, and as high as two stories on each side.


Eh, just going off of what he actually told the committee based on the Transcript article. Of course if he actually follows through is a totally different thing.

----------


## BG918

> Norman should have focused all this effort on downtown Norman where they didn't need to build all the infrastructre, had existing businesses ready to move in, and lots of people near by who could get there without having to drive a car.  With the money saved they could have put in a starter streetcar system.  Opportunity missed.


The UNP "town center" appears to be mostly national chains some of which may relocate from Sooner Mall.  It wpn't be a high end shopping center, and has been majorly scaled back from what was originally proposed. Still potential for an even better development in downtown Norman/Campus Corner with high end national anchors and lots of local stores which is better anyway.  Main from Flood to University is absolutely ripe for such a mixed-use development.

----------


## BoulderSooner

5 guys is now open

----------


## Dekoung

> The UNP "town center" appears to be mostly national chains some of which may relocate from Sooner Mall.  It wpn't be a high end shopping center, and has been majorly scaled back from what was originally proposed. Still potential for an even better development in downtown Norman/Campus Corner with high end national anchors and lots of local stores which is better anyway.  Main from Flood to University is absolutely ripe for such a mixed-use development.


BG, just curious but do you realistically think high end retailers will come to downtown/CC?  If so what are the incentives?

I would love to see that happen but I just can't see it.  Call me a pessimist.

----------


## BG918

> BG, just curious but do you realistically think high end retailers will come to downtown/CC?  If so what are the incentives?
> 
> I would love to see that happen but I just can't see it.  Call me a pessimist.


Campus Corner absolutely.  There are already several higher end boutiques there and would be a destination.  Mix a few chains like Banana Republic and Pottery Barn with local places.  Add a small movie theater, boutique hotel and loft apartments.  Along University Blvd is the perfect place for such development.

Downtown is better for local but not necessarily higher end stores.  As Campus Corner continues to revitalize it won't be as local as it once was (already happening) and downtown will benefit as it will primarily be local stores and restaurants.

----------


## venture

Now just need to find a developer, with money, who actually sees it the same way. Unfortunately they don't exist yet.

----------


## ChargerAg

Does anybody know what is going in the lot being cleared by target?  

also is the new grocery store ever going to open?

----------


## rcjunkie

> Does anybody know what is going in the lot being cleared by target?  
> 
> also is the new grocery store ever going to open?


Should be announced soon that Crest Foods and Cheesecake Factory will start construction in spring.

----------


## vaflyer

The land being cleared near the Target is for Mathis Brothers' Mattress Store.

Also, where is the Crest Food store going in the UNP?  I have not heard anything about Cheesecake Factory. What is your source and where would it be going in the UNP?

----------


## Ettie

> Should be announced soon that Crest Foods and Cheesecake Factory will start construction in spring.


Along with the SE Norman Walmart, I hope you are right about this.  No source?

----------


## ChargerAg

A mattress store there with all those restaurants seems terrible.   Another place to eat would seem to make alot more sense but i guess they are taking what they can get.    I sure wish they would bring that Discount Tire store back.

----------


## ljbab728

> A mattress store there with all those restaurants seems terrible.   Another place to eat would seem to make alot more sense but i guess they are taking what they can get.    I sure wish they would bring that Discount Tire store back.


????  People who buy matresses don't eat?

----------


## rcjunkie

> Along with the SE Norman Walmart, I hope you are right about this.  No source?


The source works at City Hall, can't provide name for obvious reasons.

----------


## rcjunkie

> The land being cleared near the Target is for Mathis Brothers' Mattress Store.
> 
> Also, where is the Crest Food store going in the UNP?  I have not heard anything about Cheesecake Factory. What is your source and where would it be going in the UNP?


Not sure about location at UNP for Cheesecake Factory, but Crest is planned for the N. end of UNP, closer to Tecumseh.

----------


## dirtrider73068

> Should be announced soon that Crest Foods and Cheesecake Factory will start construction in spring.


I have heard about Crest being built near Target, I was also told or its rumored that Cabelas will be built there on UNP as well. But I will always wonder how Dollar Tree is high end retail? 

I feel this whole UNP is a failure and a waste of moeny or least tax dollars by having it as a TIF, since us the employees are being told that we won't hire anymore, still have merit freezes, residents have to feel the crunch as well, but will still keep giving millions to bring in supposed high end retail for UNP.

----------


## ChargerAg

I don't see acadamy being very happy with a cabelas going there.

----------


## dirtrider73068

> I don't see acadamy being very happy with a cabelas going there.


LOL I don't either, I have told alot of outdoor guys and hunters, and they thrilled to know that a Cabelas will be brought into Norman, since Bass Pro is expensive, I would also like to think that Acadamy will have to lower prices to compete with Cabelas on some of there outdoor stuff.

I myself would love to see a Cabelas since I haven't been able to see one to see what kind of merchandise they carry compared to Bass Pro.

----------


## rcjunkie

> LOL I don't either, I have told alot of outdoor guys and hunters, and they thrilled to know that a Cabelas will be brought into Norman, since *Bass Pro is expensive, I would also like to think that Acadamy will have to lower prices to compete with Cabelas on some of there outdoor stuff.*
> 
> I myself would love to see a Cabelas since I haven't been able to see one to see what kind of merchandise they carry compared to Bass Pro.


You definitely need to price check, Bass Pro and Cabelas are almost identical in pricing.

----------


## venture

I really like the look of Cabelas a lot more than Bass Pro. However like RC said, they are almost identical in pricing. Though Cabelas would be a very good draw for Norman, especially from the Southern half of the state who would stop there instead of going to Bricktown.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I have heard about Crest being built near Target, I was also told or its rumored that Cabelas will be built there on UNP as well. But I will always wonder how Dollar Tree is high end retail? 
> 
> I feel this whole UNP is a failure and a waste of moeny or least tax dollars by having it as a TIF, since us the employees are being told that we won't hire anymore, still have merit freezes, residents have to feel the crunch as well, but will still keep giving millions to bring in supposed high end retail for UNP.


UNP was NEVER planned to be 100% "high end retail"

----------


## kevinpate

Is/are there an/any accurate, accessible master site plan/s for UNP that show/s announced projects?

----------


## venture

> UNP was NEVER planned to be 100% "high end retail"


Many forget that. You need some of the lower end retail to get the foot traffic there. If they went 100% upscale, you wouldn't get enough people. This is one of the reasons why it is also key to hold the developers in developing the lifestyle center. The village shopping environment and combining it with loft apartments and offices would do wonders.

----------


## Questor

> I don't see acadamy being very happy with a cabelas going there.


That would be a really strange move but it wouldn't surprise me. These are the same folks who built a Panda Express literally in Pei Wei's parking lot after all.

----------


## MikeLucky

> That would be a really strange move but it wouldn't surprise me. These are the same folks who built a Panda Express literally in Pei Wei's parking lot after all.


Um, if you are saying that panda express and pei wei are interchangeable, then you have some pretty bad taste buds...  They are for totally different markets and occasions.  It would be the equivalent of saying that the Long John Silvers in front of the Pearl's was redundant.  lol

----------


## dop

There will be two mattress stores right near each other also, Mathis brothers and the one in strip with Zios/five guys etc.

----------


## kevinpate

> ... This is one of the reasons why it is also key to hold the developers in developing the lifestyle center. ...


Isn't that already a done dead and buried idea?

----------


## dop

It is definately dead!  "they aren't building lifestyle centers anymore"- developer, about a year after his idea to build lifestyle center. haha!

----------


## gamecock

The most recent news suggests that they plan to build a "town center" or "village center" instead of a "lifestyle center" . . . still too early to judge this whole project . . .

http://normantranscript.com/governme...learer-for-TIF

----------


## venture

> The most recent news suggests that they plan to build a "town center" or "village center" instead of a "lifestyle center" . . . still too early to judge this whole project . . .
> 
> http://normantranscript.com/governme...learer-for-TIF


Go back to page 4 and we actually discussed that. I personally don't see any difference from lifestyle center to town/village center. Just a different name to call it.

----------


## gamecock

I agree, it's old news, but some folks either don't keep up or just want to focus on the negative. 

I also agree that if they keep the landscaping and design up to standards, this can still be a great addition. I was never convinced that it had to have a pedestrian-only promenade to be nice. I have seen plenty of nice town centers that are not pedestrian-only, and I would be fine with that. 

There are some things I like about UNP (SuperTarget, Pei Wei, Zio's) and some things I don't (Dollar Tree, $1 Jewelry Galore), but it's too early to make a final judgment.

----------


## ou48A

I’m glad to hear about a rumored Norman Cabelas.
I have ordered high quality extreme cold weather gear from their catalog before.

Is there anything more known about how realistic this is and when and where?
Thanks

----------


## flintysooner

http://www.kansas.com/2011/02/16/172...belas-fee.html

http://www.kansas.com/2011/03/08/175...incentive.html

http://www.kansas.com/2011/08/12/197...f-cabelas.html

----------


## Questor

> Um, if you are saying that panda express and pei wei are interchangeable, then you have some pretty bad taste buds...  They are for totally different markets and occasions.  It would be the equivalent of saying that the Long John Silvers in front of the Pearl's was redundant.  lol


I don't know why you have to put me down.  I wasn't making a judgement call on their food at all... I was saying I would imagine one company that has been established in UNP for some time wouldn't be too happy to see their _competitor,_ be it Cabella's or Panda, located so closely to them.  In case you are curious go look up stock ticker PFCB, the parent company of Pei Wei.  Go to a site like Yahoo Finance and look through their legal filings... they flat-out state that they view Panda Express as one of their primary competitors.  Go to a site like WikiInvest and you'll find mention of Panda eating away at Pei Wei and PF Chang's market share.  Do a search for those business names in USA Today and you will find several articles citing the down economy and the trend of consumers to migrate away from Pei Wei and PF Chang's and towards Panda Express.  Regardless of taste buds, there is a very real trend going on with the finance side of the house and those guys are direct competitors.  So all I am saying is that it seems pretty bad to me that UNP would put the two so close together, and if the rumors in this thread are right would do it again with Academy and Cabela's.  If I am the owner or manager of a store the last thing I want to do at night is walk out the front door and see a company that corporate views as the primary competitor 20 feet away in the parking lot.  If I'm a potential tenant of UNP and I see that as a trend I probably would rather look someplace else in the metro to locate myself in.  You may disagree that they're in different categories because of taste, but the money people don't see it that way.  That's all I'm saying.

----------


## MikeLucky

> I don't know why you have to put me down.  I wasn't making a judgement call on their food at all... I was saying I would imagine one company that has been established in UNP for some time wouldn't be too happy to see their _competitor,_ be it Cabella's or Panda, located so closely to them.  In case you are curious go look up stock ticker PFCB, the parent company of Pei Wei.  Go to a site like Yahoo Finance and look through their legal filings... they flat-out state that they view Panda Express as one of their primary competitors.  Go to a site like WikiInvest and you'll find mention of Panda eating away at Pei Wei and PF Chang's market share.  Do a search for those business names in USA Today and you will find several articles citing the down economy and the trend of consumers to migrate away from Pei Wei and PF Chang's and towards Panda Express.  Regardless of taste buds, there is a very real trend going on with the finance side of the house and those guys are direct competitors.  So all I am saying is that it seems pretty bad to me that UNP would put the two so close together, and if the rumors in this thread are right would do it again with Academy and Cabela's.  If I am the owner or manager of a store the last thing I want to do at night is walk out the front door and see a company that corporate views as the primary competitor 20 feet away in the parking lot.  If I'm a potential tenant of UNP and I see that as a trend I probably would rather look someplace else in the metro to locate myself in.  You may disagree that they're in different categories because of taste, but the money people don't see it that way.  That's all I'm saying.


Wasn't saying anything about you personally, just being a smarta**.  lol.  I understand your point, but I was just saying that I wouldn't ever consider those two direct competitors.  Apparently my tastes are different than the masses.

----------


## pw405

While driving by UNP yesterday, I noticed two new construction sites have broke ground.  Both are on the east side of 24th, north of the Five Guys and Zio's locations.  One of the sites had a sign out front showing the building, but it looked more like a small office development than retail.  The other site was just scraped clean with the blue stormwater barriers up around it.  Good to see some more development here.

----------


## dop

One will be another bank (cant remember which one)...also, a four story Holiday Inn Express and suites will be going in on the E. side of 24th (not sure when that will get started).

----------


## MDot

Holiday Inn basically owns the Oklahoma City area hotel market.

----------


## ljbab728

> Holiday Inn basically owns the Oklahoma City area hotel market.


Actually, the various brands under the Marriott umbrella have a much larger share of the market.

----------


## MDot

> Actually, the various brands under the Marriott umbrella have a much larger share of the market.


That's true. I guess Holiday Inn's are just a little more obvious to the eye for me than Marriott's are. I'm still waiting for a Drury Inn to enter into the OKC market.

----------


## kevinpate

> While driving by UNP yesterday, I noticed two new construction sites have broke ground.  Both are on the east side of 24th, north of the Five Guys and Zio's locations.  One of the sites had a sign out front showing the building, but it looked more like a small office development than retail.  The other site was just scraped clean with the blue stormwater barriers up around it.  Good to see some more development here.


The site immediately north of IBC, a wee bit north of five guys/zios, will be Valliance.  Not a clue on the other at the moment.

----------


## johnpwoods

Hotel

----------


## Jersey Boss

> That's true. I guess Holiday Inn's are just a little more obvious to the eye for me than Marriott's are. I'm still waiting for a Drury Inn to enter into the OKC market.


Some years ago there was one off I-35 in OKC.  I think it was between Grand and 44th, but it was a dump.

----------


## MDot

> Some years ago there was one off I-35 in OKC.  I think it was between Grand and 44th, but it was a dump.


Location, location, location. LOL

----------


## Jersey Boss

> Some years ago there was one off I-35 in OKC.  I think it was between Grand and 44th, but it was a dump.


My Bad, it was a DROVERS INN I was confusing with Drury. Apologies to the Drury Corporation.

----------


## G22

Does anyone know what happened to the Jack in the Box that was planned for the area near IBC bank?

----------


## ChargerAg

Moore probally stole it like they do every UNP development.

----------


## rcjunkie

With 5guys in the same area, they probably decided against building there. Way too much competition.

----------


## kevinpate

> Does anyone know what happened to the Jack in the Box that was planned for the area near IBC bank?


It may still be a go, but I don't know.  There's still a fair sized lot between IBC & the Five Guys/Zio's mini stripmall.

----------


## Spartan

> Moore probally stole it like they do every UNP development.


Wow. When Moore is stealing your development, you have a serious problem.

----------


## pure

I noticed there's a Pearle Vision between five guys and game stop. Anyone know if they're closing the one on 36th and Main or keeping both?

----------


## kevinpate

> I noticed there's a Pearle Vision between five guys and game stop. Anyone know if they're closing the one on 36th and Main or keeping both?



Don't know.  I'm by there a lot but I never saw the Pearle shop.  Hmmm, maybe I oughta stop in.

----------


## mcca7596

> Don't know.  I'm by there a lot but I never saw the Pearle shop.  Hmmm, maybe I oughta stop in.


lol, nice.

----------


## dop

In today's transcript..

NORMAN  Sales tax generated by the University North Park tax increment finance district (TIF) topped $20 million between October 2006 and October 2011. More than $3.6 million in ad valorem tax was levied in 2010 and was payable in 2011.

Taxes collected in University North Park under the TIF designation serve as a financing tool for public improvements. 

Of the $20 million-plus of sales tax collected, just more than $5.4 million was transferred to the citys general fund. Some of the University North Park businesses relocated, and that money stays with the general fund, since it likely would have been generated without the TIF.

The remaining $15.4 million has funded more than $10 million in public projects so far.

Of the ad valorem taxes collected, a little more than $1.8 million goes to Norman Public Schools (61.46 percent), with much smaller percentages going to Cleveland County, Moore-Norman Vo-Tech, Norman Public Library, the city and the Health Department  entities that normally collect ad valorem millages  which agreed to take a decreased amount in the TIF district. 

The remaining $1.8 million of ad valorem taxes collected pays for public improvements in University North Park.

Using TIF money to fund public improvements serves as an economic driver for the city by attracting business to University North Park, thus bringing in new sales tax and ad valorem tax dollars.

While the pace of development slowed during the recession following the initial frenzy during the first two years of the TIF, the economy is picking up and new development continues.

Theres quite a bit of dirt flying in North Park, Norman Finance Director Anthony Francisco said.

Near the Embassy Suites Hotel and Conference Center, a new Holiday Inn Express has been platted and is expected to be coming soon. Packaged together, the two hotels can accommodate bigger functions than the Embassy Suites alone, officials have said.

That will allow Norman to compete for bigger conferences and other events.

Near Logans Roadhouse and Cheddars, a Mathis Brothers Lady Americana high-end mattress store is coming to the UNP, and Valliance Bank with a unique architectural design, is slated for the strip near 5 Guys Burgers and Fries, Francisco reported. 

To the north, city officials are expecting a steak house and a Starbucks. On the east end, a large grocery store is anticipated.

Theyre in final negotiations on a Crest Food Store, Francisco said. With the exception of the Village Center, were getting filled up.

In addition, the Norman Economic Development Coalition has purchased around 30 acres and may purchase another 30 to 40 acres for an airline-related business, Francisco said. 

Joy Hampton 366-3539 jhampton@ normantranscript.com

----------


## ChargerAg

How long are they going to negotiate on that Crest.    Is it taking so long becuase Moore is in the background offering them more and more Cash?

----------


## Soonerman

I wonder if the Steakhouse is going to be Texas Roadhouse?

----------


## venture

> How long are they going to negotiate on that Crest.    Is it taking so long becuase Moore is in the background offering them more and more Cash?


It'll happen the same time the mystical Lowe's on Hwy 9 does. :-)

----------


## okcfollower

What is being built on the northwest side of target. Like close to i-35. I saw some dirt work going on in the area. Basically between Target and the Pei-Wei area.

----------


## G.Walker

> What is being built on the northwest side of target. Like close to i-35. I saw some dirt work going on in the area. Basically between Target and the Pei-Wei area.


Probably another fast food place, nothing to get your hopes up about, I wouldn't be surprised if its Jack In The Box...

----------


## 3labdad

> Moore probally stole it like they do every UNP development.


Wow... that is funny.  If Norman was the best site then the retailer would build in Norman.  Moore may just be the better choice! Maybe Moore is easier to work with?

----------


## acumpton

It's going to be the Mathis Brothers store.

----------


## rcjunkie

> It's going to be the Mathis Brothers store.


Mathis Bros. is SE of Target.

----------


## vaflyer

The construction behind Target (i.e. NW of Target) is likely Discount Tire.

----------


## twade

The dirtwork looked to be the right size for the long-rumored Discount Tire. That would be my guess..

----------


## ChargerAg

I am crossing my fingers that it will be a discount tire. 


I can't see how moore would be a better location the UNP al thing being equal.   The movie theater would have been a much better fit at UNP.

----------


## venture

I could see some companies thinking that it being an easier pull from OKC in Moore than Norman. I think Warren probably favored Moore over Norman based on that and also the fact that Norman would still have a theater a sort drive away. No question the Warren would have been a better fit at UNP and would have really helped to tie things together by bringing in a lot of foot traffic to help smaller stores to setup.

----------


## Spartan

> I am crossing my fingers that it will be a discount tire. 
> 
> 
> I can't see how moore would be a better location the UNP al thing being equal.   The movie theater would have been a much better fit at UNP.


good one.

----------


## bbhill

> The dirtwork looked to be the right size for the long-rumored Discount Tire. That would be my guess..


This is most definitely the upscale development we've all been waiting for!

----------


## venture

> This is most definitely the upscale development we've all been waiting for!


It is obviously the developer not being held to the standard Norman voters expected. I've been to parts of the country that are deep in the recession still, yet they are building very successful lifestyle/community/village/whatever centers. I've been seeing where they are bulldozing classic malls for these type of developments.

I would say something that needs to be looked at is partnering with GGP and tear down Sooner Mall. Replace it with the village center at UNP and relocate all the vendors there. Then take the existing Sooner Mall plot and redevelop it with a mix office/hospitality development.

----------


## Ettie

> It is obviously the developer not being held to the standard Norman voters expected. I've been to parts of the country that are deep in the recession still, yet they are building very successful lifestyle/community/village/whatever centers. I've been seeing where they are bulldozing classic malls for these type of developments.
> 
> I would say something that needs to be looked at is partnering with GGP and tear down Sooner Mall. Replace it with the village center at UNP and relocate all the vendors there. Then take the existing Sooner Mall plot and redevelop it with a mix office/hospitality development.


Is the mall not currently profitable?

----------


## Spartan

> It is obviously the developer not being held to the standard Norman voters expected. I've been to parts of the country that are deep in the recession still, yet they are building very successful lifestyle/community/village/whatever centers. I've been seeing where they are bulldozing classic malls for these type of developments.
> 
> I would say something that needs to be looked at is partnering with GGP and tear down Sooner Mall. Replace it with the village center at UNP and relocate all the vendors there. Then take the existing Sooner Mall plot and redevelop it with a mix office/hospitality development.


Norman almost has no right to even think big like that after the multiple letdowns lately, with UNP obviously being the biggest. I don't trust this council to hold anyone to a development standard that you'd see outside of Oklahoma. Or outside of Central Oklahoma, even.

----------


## gamecock

I still think it's too early to judge UNP, and the state of the economy explains part of the problem with that development. This is an interesting story from yesterday's Norman Transcript:

http://normantranscript.com/governme...Eye-for-beauty

I wondered why that Academy building looked like a poor fit...sounds like they blew that approval...

----------


## Questor

Yeah the Academy looks terrible, almost as bad as AMC Crossroads. The nicer parts of the development like the Target are respectable but nothing special. I don't understand why the OKC metro never seems to be able to get its act together when it comes to making things that don't look cheap. There's something wrong when you have to hope and pray that a new development here will look at least as good as the average outlet mall in Texas. Tulsa always seems to do a decent job... Why is that?  What arc standards do they have that we don't?

----------


## ljbab728

Questor, you must not be looking at all of the average developments in Texas or Tulsa.  There is crap everywhere.  OKC does not have that market cornered.

----------


## kevinpate

We don't see much in the way of neighborhood association youthful artistic expression in Norman like one readily finds in other parts of the metro.  However, if some association wanted to use AS as an advertising canvas, I don't know that it would up the ugly factor by much at all.

----------


## Questor

I was hoping that someone might have some facts on why developments in Dallas often look so much nicer.  For example I know for a fact that the landscaping requirements for developments there are something on the order of triple what is required in OKC... that's not my opinion that landscaping looks denser there, that's a hard fact.  So I wonder if there might be similar ordinances having to do with minimum standards on facades and things like that and how they compare to Norman and UNP.  Does anyone know?

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## progressiveboy

> I was hoping that someone might have some facts on why developments in Dallas often look so much nicer.  For example I know for a fact that the landscaping requirements for developments there are something on the order of triple what is required in OKC... that's not my opinion that landscaping looks denser there, that's a hard fact.  So I wonder if there might be similar ordinances having to do with minimum standards on facades and things like that and how they compare to Norman and UNP.  Does anyone know?


 As far as why Dallas developments look much nicer, could be the citizens and the municipality demand it! OKC has always lagged in this department. I believe it's also due to developers in OKC tend to go cheap and just do not want to spend the extra $$ for aesthetics and quality development. OKC is my hometown, however, I always thought of it as kinda dirty anyway. I just do not think that "most" OKC residents care enough to demand it or that they feel it is important. I hope the more forward thinking inhabitants step up to the plate?

----------


## Questor

After a lot of Googling I just realized that University North Park _doesn't have its own web page_.  Closest I've come is some lame developer's website.  Come on Oklahoma, get with the times.

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## ouimguy

Any idea what is being built to the NW of Target?

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## ChargerAg

Discount Tire is the rumor.

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## ahlokc

What is being built next to (East of) Logan's Roadhouse? Steel structure is already up.

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## kevinpate

> What is being built next to (East of) Logan's Roadhouse? Steel structure is already up.


Mathis Bros. (or someone else) is putting in a Mattress type store there.

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## ahlokc

> Mathis Bros. (or someone else) is putting in a Mattress type store there.


 Ah, okay. Heard that was going in, just didn't catch where. Thanks.

----------


## kevinpate

Silly place for a matt shack in my opinion.  I think another casual dining or fast foodie shack would be a better fit right there. But, I don't get to decide such things.

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## ahlokc

Yep, seems out of place. And it will be a Mathis Bros mattress store after looking it up. Apparently the land cost them $1.1 million.

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## G22

Things like the Mathis Brothers mattress store will bring people to Norman from smaller communities like Purcell, Blanchard, Lexington, and Pauls Valley.  I wish they had put more stores like this in the middle of the development but the Mathis Bros store is a major anchor.

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## kevinpate

> ... the Mathis Bros store is a major anchor.


My oh my.  I suppose UNP has completely jumped the shark if folks start to see it as group of shops near where the mathis family sell mattresses.  Wasn't target being a major anchor humbling enough?

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## gamecock

I don't have strong feelings for or against the Mathis Bros. store, but the location is awful. It's too large for that space, and it blocks the other restaurants. Clearly, a restaurant should have gone there to complement Logan's and Cheddar's. I don't know why they allowed it there. 

In a recent Transcript article, they mentioned that Chuys and Teds Cafe Escondido were denied locations in UNP because "marketing and architectural models desired by those companies did not match with the North Park project." I'd really like to know what they mean by that because it seems like having those restaurants there would be a better than the Mathis Brother's store. It's hard to believe their architectural models were less appropriate than Logan's (which is fine, but it certainly doesn't look like it was custom built for UNP).

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## venture

The oversight board for UNP is worthless anyway. They sold out years ago and haven't really done anything to keep things on task...especially with the developer who is holding the land hostage for the new park.

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## G22

I see your point...

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## vaflyer

I have heard that Mathis Brothers wanted the specific property that they purchased because it was directly across the street from Mattress Firm. I would have preferred that a restaurant go on that property but that obviously did not happen. Mathis Brothers has a picture of their completed building on sign on the construction site and from the picture the building looks very nice.

As for Crest, an individual asked Crest on their Facebook page when they would be opening a store in Norman (this was a mid-January post). Someone from Crest replied the Spring of 2013. Based on revised UNP plats going through the city of Norman committee process, it appears the Crest store will be directly behind the strip plaza with the Zios in it.

I have also heard from a manager at Homeland (in Norman) that Sunflower Farmers Market has leased the old Hobby Lobby space on Main St. (confirming a previous post on the issue)

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## rjstone208

I have also heard from a manager at Homeland (in Norman) that Sunflower Farmers Market has leased the old Hobby Lobby space on Main St. (confirming a previous post on the issue)

As I said in previous post, nothing is official yet.  We were Sunflower about two hours ago and an assistant manager said he'd heard nothing about when or where in Norman.  I think Sunflower will eventually open in Norman and the old Hobby Lobby space would be ideal but all I've heard so far seem's to be wishful thinking.

----------


## kevinpate

If Mathis truly wanted to play pharm shoppe line of sight with the discount mattress folk across the way, I wish they had crossed the street and bought up the space between Matt Firm and IBC.  I absolutely agree with you it would have been a better play overall to plop another food shoppe there by Cheddar's and Logan's.  Of course, were I king for a day, both the mattress houses would have ended up to the west by the tire house or somewhere else they weren't front and center.  Oh well.

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## Questor

Norman planning is horrible. I'm surprised they haven't approved yet another car lot for the lot adjacent to IBC.

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## jedicurt

I just got back from a Norman Chamber meeting in which the current state of UNP was discussed...   

First of all, just south of Embassy Suites is going to be a large Holiday Inn Express, and Embassy Suites is thrilled about this because they have had issues lately with people complain that there isn't nearly enough hotel rooms for all attendees of conferences there

Secondly, just north of Rock Creek on the East side of 24th will be an office park that is scheduled to start ground work soon.

Crest is coming and they think it should break ground before the end of the fiscal year (June 30th), it will be behind Zio's and 5 guys burgers.
a second strip mall is going to be built just north of Vallance bank, and the known tenents for it are Select Comfort (cause we need 3 mattress stores in this area), GNC, and Weight Watchers.    

The park is still coming, this issue right now is trying to work out a deal for the City to get the land between Wing Stop and Academy, once the land is owned by the city, they think construction on it will go rather quickly.   It will have a pond and a 250 seat amphitheater.

The I35 frontage road is going to be connected on the south side to Robinson where the current light is for the on ramp on the east side (the on and off ramps will be moved to the frontage road in a project that is supposed to start in March and last no longer than 150 days (haha, yeah right). and then the frontage road will be extended all the way up past rock creek and then eventually connect back up with 24th just before Tecumseh rd

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## kevinpate

Oh well, at least they'll be doing something.  

The office park and the HI Express were known, but yeah, it's good to see these moving forward.
Crest, another grocery store in a sea of food stores. But at least it is a different one and not branch X of what Norman already has.  Game on long-timers!  Another matt store and another supplement hut in town ... oh be still my heart.

The park .. will believe it when I see frisbees fly and couples stroll.  Still a skeptic I guess.

The new exit stuff .. would like to see drawings because at first blush I'm not yet a fan.

Oh, for those who don't know .. the folks at IBC are some of the nicest folk in Norman.  If you're hunting a bank, drop by and say hiya to them.

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## BoulderSooner

the frontage road will do wonders for traffic in that area

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## rcjunkie

> the frontage road will do wonders for traffic in that area


true, just wish they could do something on the W. side of this location. (Robinson and W. interstate drive)

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## jn1780

> The new exit stuff .. would like to see drawings because at first blush I'm not yet a fan.


Ramp and Frontage road plans

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## Soonerman

Anybody think something like a World Market would work at UNP?

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## metro

Most definitely would.

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## MDot

Heck yeah it would.

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## twade

World Market would be great, but I'm guessing you won't see one until the liquor laws are changed. The inability to sell wine cuts out about a 1/4 of that store's floor plan, and maybe even more in revenues (just a guess).

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## jedicurt

> World Market would be great, but I'm guessing you won't see one until the liquor laws are changed. The inability to sell wine cuts out about a 1/4 of that store's floor plan, and maybe even more in revenues (just a guess).


so 3 weeks after never

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## Soonerman

> World Market would be great, but I'm guessing you won't see one until the liquor laws are changed. The inability to sell wine cuts out about a 1/4 of that store's floor plan, and maybe even more in revenues (just a guess).


They got stores in Kansas and they got similar liquor laws that Oklahoma's got. I think a good place for World Market would be next to Academy there at UNP.

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## poe

World Market opened a store in Lubbock not too long ago and had no beer or wine section.  Shortly thereafter, Lubbock County's liquor laws finally changed and World Market added the beer and wine.

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## Soonerman

Either way World Market would be a nice add to Norman and OKC metro for that matter if they come.

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## metro

> World Market would be great, but I'm guessing you won't see one until the liquor laws are changed. The inability to sell wine cuts out about a 1/4 of that store's floor plan, and maybe even more in revenues (just a guess).


I've been to a store in Dallas that didn't carry any.

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## ShiroiHikari

I'd definitely go to World Market if they opened one here. Pretty neat place, that.

Wait a minute. They're trying to put a Crest in right across the street from Super Target? Am I the only one that thinks that's a stupid idea? Also, don't we have enough grocery stores in Norman already?

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## twade

Wow, I didn't realize World Market had so many stores without wine sales; thanks for the corrections. I remember seeing one in Amarillo, Tx of all places, so I thought maybe liquor laws played a part in it - thought it was strange Amarillo got one before the metro.

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## venture

Some more news in the Transcript today...

http://normantranscript.com/headline...or-Legacy-Park

*Negotiations pave way for Legacy Park**By Joy Hampton*The Norman Transcript
NORMAN — University North Park TIF Agreement No. 5 is close to being finalized.
Norman City Council members were briefed on the details of the agreement Tuesday during the City Council Conference prior to the regular council meeting.
Based on feedback from council members, city attorneys will tighten certain language regarding development requirements, but several formerly contentious points were negotiated in a compromise that serves the needs of the city and UNP developers.
Agreement No. 5 should appear with some minor language changes on the April 24 city council agenda for approval.
“This agreement does move the park forward and does provide funding for the park,” City Attorney Jeff Bryant said.
Issues that needed to be resolved in order to move Legacy Park and development Agreement No. 5 forward include:
 Donation of park land.
 Potential penalties assessed to developers by Jan. 1, 2016, if 250,000 square foot of retail in the Village Center (formerly called the Lifestyle Center) has not transpired.
 Parking around Legacy Park.
 Maintenance of Legacy Park.
 Construction funding for Legacy Park.
Agreement No. 5 resolves those issue by delineating:
 Donation of park land by deed and final plat.
 A dedicated Legacy Park parking area west of Academy Sports to meet the parking needs.
 A phased Business Improvement District to cover maintenance costs of the park.
 Restructuring of the 2009 TIF Note (loan) to provide additional funding needed for the park’s construction.
“This provides a funding source to move Legacy Park forward,” Bryant said of the note restructuring.
While most of the money for the park was in place, additional money is needed. The note restructure with the OU Foundation will reduce the reserve requirements and allow the release of collateral in the form of accumulated TIF Revenues.
In addition to donating the park land, the developer will still be required to fill the Village Center to the tune of 250,000 square feet but with a two-year extension. While no incentive will be given for bringing in Crest Foods as a flagship store, the 109,000-square-foot grocery will count as retail space against the penalty payments.
“As business people, they’re just trying to manage their risk,” Bryant said.
Agreement No. 3, in 2007, reversed the order of development and added the claw backs, or penalty payments, if the developer failed to meet the 250,000-square-foot retail space requirement in the Village Center by Jan. 1, 2016.
But in 2008, the “wheels came off the economy,” Bryant said.
Further, the developer agrees to donate an additional two acres for a cultural facility and will receive credit against the claw back penalties.
“I think, at least, we should identify which two acres on that map we’re talking about,” Council member Carol Dillingham said.
Bryant said a legal description will be supplied.
Mayor Cindy Rosenthal said she wanted to be assured that the two acres wasn’t part of the detention pond.
Concept modifications will allow parking along the front of stores in the Village Center as well as wider medians to accommodate public social activities. The original concept of a lifestyle center has shown not to be economically viable. The developer said that concept cannot be sold to retailers. The concept modifications will allow the developer to recruit quality retailers to the Village Center while making it an economically viable alternative.
The developer will make an effort to bring an upscale, quality retail anchor store to the Village Center area.
Joy Hampton 366-3539 jhampton@ normantranscript.com

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## ljbab728

http://newsok.com/norman-officials-d...rticle/3674662

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## rcjunkie

> I'd definitely go to World Market if they opened one here. Pretty neat place, that.
> 
> Wait a minute. They're trying to put a Crest in right across the street from Super Target? Am I the only one that thinks that's a stupid idea? Also, don't we have enough grocery stores in Norman already?


They're not trying, it's a done deal, and no it's not stupid, this is an excellent location/area for a Crest Store.

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## Spartan

So what kind of penalties are we looking at in 2016?

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## Soonerman

The deadline has been extended to 2018 Spartan.

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## Spartan

Ah, of course it has.

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## Questor

Soonerman/Spartan: Yeah.  I didn't see it mentioned in the Oklahoman's article, but the reason two council members voted against the Legacy Park agreement was because it pushed the timeline out two years and gave the developer relief on penalties.

ShiroiHikari: Haven't you heard, businesses in Norman that are direct competitors love to open up in one another's parking lot.  See:  Pei Wei/Panda Express, Matress FIRM/Mathis Sleep Center, Poblano Grill/Chuy's, and now Super Target/Crest....

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## Questor

Still lame that UNP doesn't have a website.

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## Spartan

They should have thrown the book at them.

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## Questor

Rather than post my rant against the developer and the city for constantly caving to the big guys but enforcing against the little guys to no end, I will simply say yes I agree whole-heartedly.

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## Spartan

The problem with UNP is that because the OU Foundation is involved, the developers are clearly getting away with murder. I think they have preferential status. This is even more problematic because it is preventing the City of Norman from cutting its losses and moving on to enter into a more promising partnership that will deliver the development Norman needs to remain competitive with its sales tax base and provide for growth and quality of life. It's also unfortunate that the university alumni foundation is neglectful with its community investments.

This in addition to our combined previous rants  :Smiley127:

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## Questor

I got to ranting about UNP again pretty good here:

Whole Foods... Thread

...and once again it got me thinking about the place.  What started the rant was someone who posted saying that representatives from Whole Foods came to Norman, looked around, and were underwhelmed.  I got to looking at all the promises made about UNP over the years, with links to them in various Norman Transcript reports, and just found it incredibly maddening.  

It was repeatedly billed as a place that would be on par with major developments in Dallas and Kansas City.  Speeches were given that, from day one, the place would be of a quality much higher than anything currently present in Oklahoma... with grand arches, clock towers, massive landscaping, and interesting architecture.  I think what angers me most about the development is the realization that it is on par with the Fritt's Farm development on 19th Street in Moore, or perhaps maybe not even as nice as that in some respects, and is below the quality level of some of the developments along Memorial in OKC and definitely below the quality level of several developments in Edmond.  Even if you disagree with that comment due to personal taste, there is no way you can look at those developments and say that UNP is heads and shoulders far superior in design to all of them and everything else in this state.  Every time I look at the development, I can't believe how far they missed the mark.

In one of the Transcript articles Boren says that he is personally going to help oversee the development, asking questions and demanding results.  As soon as it was put on contract, from that point on I can't seem to find any more public comments from Boren on the matter ever again (except for one appearance to announce the Embassy Suites).  I would really like to hear him comment on the development because I see no evidence of him being involved after selling the council on the idea.  Our tax dollars have paid for a good portion of the development, and it doesn't look to me like we are getting what we were promised.  I think he owes the council a public statement, if not an appearance.

----------


## Just the facts

> Our tax dollars have paid for a good portion of the development, and it doesn't look to me like we are getting what we were promised.  I think he owes the council a public statement, if not an appearance.


Just think if those same tax dollars were spent converting downtown Norman streets to two-way, creating a quiet zone for the railroad, building a couple of 500 car parking garages, and some seed money to lure residential developers to downtown how much better off Norman would be.

----------


## rcjunkie

> Just think if those same tax dollars were spent converting downtown Norman streets to two-way, creating a quiet zone for the railroad, building a couple of 500 car parking garages, and some seed money to lure residential developers to downtown how much better off Norman would be.


Your right, that money could have been wasted on main Street instead of 24th Ave. NW and Robinson.

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## ljbab728

> Just think if those same tax dollars were spent converting downtown Norman streets to two-way, creating a quiet zone for the railroad, building a couple of 500 car parking garages, and some seed money to lure residential developers to downtown how much better off Norman would be.


Just what kind of residential development are you hoping for in downtown Norman?  There is little, if any, open land to develop.  There may still be some options for lofts in buildings but  I don't think any new low or high rise apartments or condos would be beneficial to the the ambience that many hope for in downtown.  The current near downtown residential areas, for the most part, are very walkable and pleasant.

----------


## Just the facts

Why would a 5 story apartment building in downtown Norman be out of the question?  Why can’t an existing 1 or 2 story building can’t be razed to make way for such an apartment building?  Why does downtown Norman, or any historic downtown, have to remain in a perpetual state of suspended development?  Who decided downtown Norman shouldn't continue to develop and when did they decide this?  Did the Norman City Council pass a resolution that said downtown has developed enough and all new development should occur elsewhere?

----------


## Spartan

> Your right, that money could have been wasted on main Street instead of 24th Ave. NW and Robinson.


Do you take pride in being off base and on the wrong side of every single issue? Main Street is an infinitely better amenity than UNP. Main Street is awesome. UNP sucks.

What do you think Norman's tax dollars should go toward?? Public safety is already over-funded and even has a dedicated sales tax in Norman. There was a streets bond package already, they're finally redoing Lindsey. Seems like the basics are covered to me.

I think you just derive some kind of strange self worth from being on the wrong side of every single issue you post about.

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## lasomeday

Main Street is the heart of Norman.  NOT OU or Target.  They need to teardown the two shopping centers at Main and Lahoma with mixed use urban design. That would be better used tax dollars or investment than anything at UNP.  Students can live there and bike or walk to campus as well as walk to multiple grocery stores and bars.

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## ljbab728

> Why would a 5 story apartment building in downtown Norman be out of the question?  Why can’t an existing 1 or 2 story building can’t be razed to make way for such an apartment building?  Why does downtown Norman, or any historic downtown, have to remain in a perpetual state of suspended development?  Who decided downtown Norman shouldn't continue to develop and when did they decide this?  Did the Norman City Council pass a resolution that said downtown has developed enough and all new development should occur elsewhere?



My opinion, for what it's worth, is the that continued reuse or upgrades to existing structures would be preferred. That is not a perpetual state of suspended development. There is no place in the core of downtown Norman for anything like Deep Deuce if that's what you're thinking about.

----------


## Just the facts

> There is no place in the core of downtown Norman for anything like Deep Deuce if that's what you're thinking about.


Sure there is, they can build up.  They can also redevelop the two shopping center just west of downtown.  There are also tons of single family housing around downtown Norman that can be torn down and the density increased.  If someone builds a house on a parcel nothing else can ever be built there?

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## ljbab728

Kerry, I have no problem with redeveloping shopping centers that aren't in the core downtown area.  I do have a problem with tearing down any current single family housing in the core area.  I grew up in Norman and my grandparents lived on Alameda which was a couple of blocks south of Main Street.  The ambience would be absolutely ruined if you start tearing out single family housing in those nice walkable neighborhoods.  There is just no need for it.  It's silly to just promote density only for the sake of density.

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## kevinpate

I don't know that I could agree ljbab728.  The apartment complex that' recently gone up at Monnet and Duffy sure seems like an improvement over what had been there.  Indeed, if a few other older structures there went down and similar units went up it would be a further improvement.

Some places I disagree with Kerry is I'm not a proponent of doing away with the one way segments of Main and Gray.,  They seem to work just fine.  

Also, Main and Gray both are developing and experiencing infill rather nicely. The Vista has been reclaimed and is mostly filled except for the question on who/what will take over the top floor.  There are several eaterys and  businesses added in the past five years on/off Main and Gray alike, with more to come.  Some independent business folk I know are reporting slow but steady increases in their customer base. DT Norman isn't doing badly at all.

----------


## Just the facts

I'll tell you what - we got way off track from UNP so back to topic.

I haven't been there in several years but I don't think much has changed.  So where did UNP go wrong?  What isn't there that people thought would be there or better yet, what is there that people DIDN'T think would be there?

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## jedicurt

> I'll tell you what - we got way off track from UNP so back to topic.
> 
> I haven't been there in several years but I don't think much has changed.  So where did UNP go wrong?  What isn't there that people thought would be there or better yet, what is there that people DIDN'T think would be there?


i didn't think there would eventually be 3 mattress stores.  And it when wrong because the city of norman thought business would come to norman over moore cause we are norman and they are moore, where as moore gave incentives

----------


## Just the facts

I thought one of the 'goals' of UNP wasn't just to create a shopping center but also create a sense of place.  When you are in UNP did you feel like you are someplace special and unique?  How about when you are in the store along I-35 in Moore, are they unique and special?

----------


## dop

> I thought one of the 'goals' of UNP wasn't just to create a shopping center but also create a sense of place.  When you are in UNP did you feel like you are someplace special and unique?  How about when you are in the store along I-35 in Moore, are they unique and special?


It is hard to tell yet, because the water feature is not in place yet, and the "upper end" mall has not happened yet (and I know there has been lots of changes to that). That being said the initial planning for UNP is almost ten years old now, so it should be finished! LOL!  Many thought this land could naturally develop, but even with the TIF, this place is still struggling to establish.

----------


## Just the facts

> It is hard to tell yet, because the water feature is not in place yet, and the "upper end" mall has not happened yet (and I know there has been lots of changes to that). That being said the initial planning for UNP is almost ten years old now, so it should be finished! LOL!  Many thought this land could naturally develop, but even with the TIF, this place is still struggling to establish.


Do you think it was a sequence thing - going for the sprawling shopping center before doing the lifestyle part?

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## rcjunkie

Does it really matter what and when they build it. No matter what is there, some will never be happy and complain about everything.

Some bitch to change things, others bitch to bitch!!

----------


## ChargerAg

I think the main thing is they let moore steal all the business.   Put the Warren in UNP and it would have been a totally different show.   

I am also not sure how it is so difficult to walk anywhere.   Even to walk from Target to PeiWei is a little tricky.   

Where are the brick arches that are supposed to great us when we enter UNP?

----------


## Questor

I think there are a few problems, not just one big one.  I think they skimped on the construction; I'm not sure if that was because of the economic downturn, or if it was simply people here just don't know any better.  I'm sure the thing was built 'above OK standards,' but that is not saying much.  The whole thing looks very pre-fabricated... like what we have are a bunch of cement boxes with fake bricks glued on to the front of them.  Which is essentially what it is, and is the way most development is these days, but there's just something about how it looks... the materials... it's hard to quantify, but it doesn't strike me as high-end.  From the beginning they talked about creating a sense of place, a place that would be turned-in on itself and not really have a backside to it, a place that would have a lot of walking to it.  They showed us pictures of the development in Phoenix that is a pure walking experience with no parking lots to be found in the photo.  What we got are a bunch of typical store-front boxes, with a definitive backside facing I-35, and a sea of parking out in front.  There are sidewalks in front of the buildings I suppose, but they are disjointed and disappear completely when they intersect with a thoroughfare.  

I look at the place and wonder, what on earth was the builder thinking... were they trying to build a walkable town center, or were they trying to build highway frontage?  It seems to me like they tried to do both... and ended up failing at both.  The thing spans I-35, but it doesn't face the highway.  Until recently there wasn't even good signage facing outwards so that driver-by's had any idea of what the thing was.  On the flip side, the front is clearly built for drive-up parking.  It fails at both... accomplishing neither.  None of the higher-end appointments are present in UNP.  It is arguable that the changing elevation of the storefronts is a high end appointment.  We were promised a sense of place and unique stores... but literally everything in the place, except for Pei Wei and Petco, are present just up the road on 19th Street in Moore.  Both of those stores are available at countless locations around the metro.  I think the generic stores and the generic architecture, not good at any purpose, were mistakes.

I think the biggest mistake was not being more accommodating to the Warren Theater.  If the rumors on this board are correct, they approached Norman first, but for various reasons Norman did not play ball.  This astounds me considering from day one the Transcript articles made it clear that the Council understood that it was in competition with Moore, that they actually had better demographics thanks to being located so closely to OKC, and that the moment they woke up and realized it Norman was going to have problems with UNP.  Norman should have been more proactive.  If the rumors of Norman apathy towards Warren aren't true, then the issue was likely the complex movie rights/region deals that theaters do and Hollywood must have had some sort of lock on the rights.  But if that was the case then it was that way from day one... so then why was a theater part of the initial pitch for UNP?  Did the development group not know their business, or were they pulling a fast one?  

When it became clear that the sleeping giant of Moore had awakened, why didn't Norman react at all to that?  Why didn't they change their game plan and start incentivizing like crazy?  Perhaps they did change their game plan as a result... maybe they decidedly went down-scale... but if so they didn't let voters know that ahead of time, and it is arguable that this was not the best decision they could have made given a multitude of ways to go.

Maybe that is the big issue... a failure to adapt.  They lost the movie theater, and they never found something to replace it in their entertainment district.  D&B just opened here in OKC... did they try to go after them?  What was the response?  What other entertainment venues did they pursue, or did they get locked into the mindset of looking at theaters only?  Why would you do that?  Another issue is the concept itself.  If the developers are telling you the economy can no longer support the lifestyle center concept, as they did in the late 2000s, then why not switch gears and try to attract an outlet mall?  Honestly most people in OKC have no idea what the difference is between an outlet and a standard mall... most who do probably don't care... it's what the outlet mall out in Yukon is so popular.  They may see "Sak's Off Fifth" but all they hear/remember is Sak's, a prestigious store that we didn't use to have here.  It markets itself.  If the UNP leadership was having problems attracting anything here, then why not shift gears and go after outlet malls?  Clearly the one in Yukon has been extremely successful.  People come from hundreds of miles away to go to it.

I guess my latest rant can be summed up in one word:  adaptability, or a complete lack of it.  Yes the economy changed and certain realities shifted that "no one" could foresee.  But as is always the case in business... that happens... and those who survive are those who adapt.  I guess UNP did adapt and is surviving... but it is not really thriving.  Not like the outlet mall, and not even like 19th Street which seems to have achieved a critical mass now.

----------


## Questor

Also, although I generally like the idea of improving downtowns and not creating big new highway developments, we have to be realistic.  The Norman downtown area doesn't have the demographics to support something like UNP.  UNP doesn't even have the demographics to support UNP.  It all has to rely on passers-by.  That's the society we live in today.  I think you can get there with downtown Norman, but I think you're talking about a multi-generational time commitment to do it, whereas you can throw just about anything up along a highway and have some degree of success.  It's a sad fact, but that's the way it is.  With respect to downtown Norman should we try to make the improvements being talked about here?  Sure.  Do I have any confidence our current city government could come up with multi-decade plans to do it, when I have no confidence in the multi-year development that was UNP?  Nope.

For the record I still think downtown OKC could pull it off, but that is because they are sort of a highway nexus.  I think in time you could do away with the highways, or the need to survive off of them, if enough people moved down there, but again I think that would be a multi-generational timeline.  I am not sure that Norman could be so lucky.  They need a niche, and given the city's demos that niche is very likely mass transit, but again I don't see Norman doing a good job, or any job at all, with respect to planning anything like that out.

----------


## Spartan

> Does it really matter what and when they build it.
> 
> Some bitch to change things, *others bitch to bitch!!*


That's you rcjunkie. And yes, it does matter what is built. It always does, just as you always say it doesn't matter what gets built.

Other than that I second questor's posts. All of them.

----------


## venture

Agree it is just a failure of the City of Norman to think big and be competitive. Questor is pretty nailing it. The Lifestyle center excuses are just that...excuses. It is a developer that promised big to get what they wanted and now doesn't want to deliver. The City continues to bow down and give the developer what he wants. At this point the damage is already done when it comes to the West side of 24th NW in any hopes of walkable setup. It will be one large strip mall and whats about it. So things must be made up on the East side of 24th NW. 

While probably a bit extreme, I still think the city/developers need to work with GGP to repurpose the land Sooner Mall is on and relocate the stores. If the true goal is to create foot traffic and a community feel, what better way than to take the lifestyle center (or whatever name they want to call it now) concept and establish it north of Embassy Suites. The concentration and selection of stores would be an absolute boom to that area (http://www.soonermall.com/directory) and not to mention it would be in a area that could actually handle the traffic a bit better. 

We could then take the old Sooner Mall property, tear down the mall, and redevelop it as a business park/housing or other non-retail use. The other target area would be the Hollywood theatre and work with them to build a new upscale replacement in UNP. If they are willing to play, then work with AMC or someone else. Of course the problem is Warren and the juggernaut that it is. Norman just failed miserably in not landing it and letting Moore run away with it. Granted Wichita is able to handle 2-3 theaters by them, I'm not sure they could make a Norman and Moore location work...especially with the seasonality of Norman's population. Though maybe a smaller scale model?

It is all a mess though at this point. The question comes up soon...does Rosenthal get held responsible for the failure to lead or does she get a rubber stamp re-election?

----------


## Just the facts

A slowing economy actually benefits a walkable lifestyle center with on-site residential.

Questor - I read every word you wrote and seems to be right on spot.  I used to take offense to the 'okie don't know any better' but not anymore.  A lot of them don't.  Sadly, area developers don't know any better either so they just keep producing the same crap everytime.  If you look at some old building you will see that the detail is on the upclose human scale.  The closer you are to the building the more detail and uniqueness you can see.  Modern developments all use manufactured materials so there is no variation at the human scale.

----------


## Dubya61

> Agree it is just a failure of the City of Norman to think big and be competitive. Questor is pretty nailing it. The Lifestyle center excuses are just that...excuses. 
> 
> While probably a bit extreme, I still think the city/developers need to work with GGP to repurpose the land Sooner Mall is on and relocate the stores. If the true goal is to create foot traffic and a community feel, what better way than to take the lifestyle center (or whatever name they want to call it now) concept and establish it north of Embassy Suites. The concentration and selection of stores would be an absolute boom to that area (http://www.soonermall.com/directory) and not to mention it would be in a area that could actually handle the traffic a bit better. 
> 
> We could then take the old Sooner Mall property, tear down the mall, and redevelop it as a business park/housing or other non-retail use. The other target area would be the Hollywood theatre and work with them to build a new upscale replacement in UNP. If they are willing to play, then work with AMC or someone else. Of course the problem is Warren and the juggernaut that it is. Norman just failed miserably in not landing it and letting Moore run away with it. Granted Wichita is able to handle 2-3 theaters by them, I'm not sure they could make a Norman and Moore location work...especially with the seasonality of Norman's population. Though maybe a smaller scale model?
> 
> It is all a mess though at this point. The question comes up soon...does Rosenthal get held responsible for the failure to lead or does she get a rubber stamp re-election?


Like this!  Why can't a city think big and act big.  Norman should not be a shrinking violet at the whims of an easy way out.

----------


## Questor

> It is all a mess though at this point. The question comes up soon...does Rosenthal get held responsible for the failure to lead or does she get a rubber stamp re-election?


First I want to say I like the ideas you brought forth in your post.  Creating the lifestyle center that we were promised across the street from the current development, and trying to relocate some existing businesses to it are an interesting idea that could cause a lot of 'synergy' to use a buzz word.  On the flip side I would hate to see Sooner Mall to bite the dust as it really is quite a lovely mall.  I suppose all developments in this state have a 'lifespan' though, and maybe it would be better to start thinking about what comes next for Sooner Mall rather than waiting for the bitter end.

Now about the quoted text above... speaking only for myself I do intend to vote against Rosenthal if she comes up for re-election.  But you know the person I really hold responsible is the City Manager.  It's his full-time, professional job to think about everything we have been talking about here, and as far as I can tell, just by looking at our recent developments, he is not someone I want to see continue in that position.  I'm just tired of the 'good enough' attitude that seems to permeate Norman.  I will no longer vote for any councilor who expresses confidence in City Manager Steve Lewis.

----------


## Questor

> A slowing economy actually benefits a walkable lifestyle center with on-site residential.
> 
> Questor - I read every word you wrote and seems to be right on spot.  I used to take offense to the 'okie don't know any better' but not anymore.  A lot of them don't.  Sadly, area developers don't know any better either so they just keep producing the same crap everytime.  If you look at some old building you will see that the detail is on the upclose human scale.  The closer you are to the building the more detail and uniqueness you can see.  Modern developments all use manufactured materials so there is no variation at the human scale.


I used to never say things like that, but I guess I view it kind of like "talking about mom" now.  The family can talk about mom, but if you're not family, you don't get to talk about my mom....  We're all OK family here and just wanting to make it a better place.  :-)

----------


## venture

Perhaps a change to the city's charter needs to happen to eliminate the City Manager form of government and go to a Strong Mayor form? That way we the voters can have direct say on who essentially holds most of the power in the city. If the mayor screws up, they are out on their ear. If they do a good job, enjoy the next 4 years.

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## ljbab728

> Perhaps a change to the city's charter needs to happen to eliminate the City Manager form of government and go to a Strong Mayor form? That way we the voters can have direct say on who essentially holds most of the power in the city. If the mayor screws up, they are out on their ear. If they do a good job, enjoy the next 4 years.


Venture, the city manager system has worked well for OKC and the strong mayor system not so well for Tulsa.

----------


## kevinpate

fwiw, a strong mayor system can be great, provided folks elect the right person as mayor.  
But when the sheeple buy into a fox for their hen house ....

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## venture

> Venture, the city manager system has worked well for OKC and the strong mayor system not so well for Tulsa.


Like Kevin stated, it is all about who you get in. My home town is a strong major system. The first mayor elected under it was amazing and did a ton to revitalize a town in desperate need. Since then have been nothing but weak yes men. However if our problem is going to be the City Manager position, then they need to be accountable to the voters.

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## ljbab728

> Like Kevin stated, it is all about who you get in. My home town is a strong major system. The first mayor elected under it was amazing and did a ton to revitalize a town in desperate need. Since then have been nothing but weak yes men. However if our problem is going to be the City Manager position, then they need to be accountable to the voters.



Isn't the City Manager hired by the city council which is elected by the voters?  That certainly gives a chain of accountability.

----------


## venture

> Isn't the City Manager hired by the city council which is elected by the voters?  That certainly gives a chain of accountability.


Oh i'm not disagreeing with you there, but maybe more direct insight is needed. Since the mayor and council don't always seems to listen to what the voters want.

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## ljbab728

> Oh i'm not disagreeing with you there, but maybe more direct insight is needed. Since the mayor and council don't always seems to listen to what the voters want.


And that applies to all elected officials.  LOL

----------


## G22

I noticed construction has started on another building just north of the banks.  It looks like it will hold four to six stores. Does anyone know what is being built?

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## kevinpate

> I noticed construction has started on another building just north of the banks.  It looks like it will hold four to six stores. Does anyone know what is being built?


From post # 175:   "Select Comfort (cause we need 3 mattress stores in this area), GNC, and Weight Watchers."

----------


## Just the facts

> From post # 175:   "Select Comfort (cause we need 3 mattress stores in this area), GNC, and Weight Watchers."


Weight Watchers in a shopping center you have to drive to.  Sorry, just had to point that out.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...lth/55162620/1

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## kevinpate

> Weight Watchers in a shopping center you have to drive to.  Sorry, just had to point that out.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...lth/55162620/1


Well, on the bright side, since folks are gonna drive anyway, they won't feel out of place pulling into Sonic next ot me for those 2 fer 1 summer priced real ice cream shakes (which are pretty dang good even at full price, but are oh so much better when they are 2 fer 1 come evening time.)

----------


## Just the facts

Downing 2000 calories from a car seat.  How could that possibly be bad for you?  It is a good thing everyone has to have health insurance now because these people would never be able to afford it on their own.

----------


## kevinpate

2000 calories?  well, sure, iffin ya wimp out and dbl down on the smaller ones I suppose.  But hey, what's a 2 fer shake without some tots?

Enjoy the bike ride from the balmy florida subdivision to the local c-store and oh, yeah, if it's chilly, stay with a sweater and skip the hoodie.  Might be healthier than me skipping the spare shake or some of the tots.

----------


## catch22

Suburban living is extremely unhealthy. I live it every day.

I drive to work, the store. To get food. Everything. 

I even drive to the park to exercise, even though it is literally across the street (the trail in the park is 200 direct feet from my back door), but the subdivision with it's walls and winding streets places it at a 2 mile round trip jog (just to get to/from) not to mention crossing a 4 lane 45mph city street with no breaks in traffic. I work out at my house, then get in my car, drive a mile to jog 1 1/2 miles around the track, do some pushups, situps, etc., then drive home. Something is wrong with this picture.

If I lived downtown, I would still drive to work (my profession wouldn't work with public transit unless it ran at 3am). But I would be able to walk to the store (assuming we had one), walk to the park, walk to the restaurants, entertainment, etc. Or I could ride a bike to all of those (also exercise). I would cut my automobile usage from 14-18 trips a day I take down to 4 or 5 at the absolute most.

I am a suburbanite and I hate it.

----------


## Just the facts

Catch 22, I am trapped in suburbia just as you are and I get sicker of it every day.  I about lost it last week when we decided to replace our fence.  Nothing makes me madder than having to drive my pickup to get items for my yard, when I don't even want the yard.  My wife would probably have to have me sedated if I drove to my work-out.  Plus I would love to have back the $5,000 we just spent getting the house painted.

----------


## ljbab728

> Why would a 5 story apartment building in downtown Norman be out of the question?  Why cant an existing 1 or 2 story building cant be razed to make way for such an apartment building?  Why does downtown Norman, or any historic downtown, have to remain in a perpetual state of suspended development?  Who decided downtown Norman shouldn't continue to develop and when did they decide this?  Did the Norman City Council pass a resolution that said downtown has developed enough and all new development should occur elsewhere?


You may be interested in what comes of this.


http://newsok.com/discussion-series-...rticle/3681722

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## bombermwc

Just the facts, if you hate suburban living so much, why not moving into urban apartments? There are options out there.

Homeownership sounds more like your issue though. If you don't enjoy the responsibilty of maintenance that comes with it, there's always the option to rent...or go to an apartment. But if you want the freedom to do with your home what you wish, you also have to take the responsibilty to maintain it. I just replaced a fence in my yard not long ago as well. Can't say I enjoyed putting it back up and i'm about to paint my house on my own as well. It's not fun, but it goes with the territory. I wouldn't give it up to be stuck in any urban living environment though. I enjoy my yard...much more than a greenspace would provide me. 

To each his own, but you do choose where you live.

----------


## Just the facts

> You may be interested in what comes of this.
> 
> 
> http://newsok.com/discussion-series-...rticle/3681722


Thanks for that link and I look forward to hearing the outcomes of these meetings.  I really wish I was there to attend.  100 units per acre is pretty high and for the city to state that they are getting mutiple requests is very promising.

----------


## Just the facts

> Just the facts, if you hate suburban living so much, why not moving into urban apartments? There are options out there.
> 
> Homeownership sounds more like your issue though. If you don't enjoy the responsibilty of maintenance that comes with it, there's always the option to rent...or go to an apartment. But if you want the freedom to do with your home what you wish, you also have to take the responsibilty to maintain it. I just replaced a fence in my yard not long ago as well. Can't say I enjoyed putting it back up and i'm about to paint my house on my own as well. It's not fun, but it goes with the territory. I wouldn't give it up to be stuck in any urban living environment though. I enjoy my yard...much more than a greenspace would provide me. 
> 
> To each his own, but you do choose where you live.


I hear what you are saying Bomber and believe me, if I could sell my house I would have done it by now.  I had to spend $463 on Monday to replace a broken garage door spring and some other worn out parts.  Do you have any idea how much I hate spending 5 Benjamins to open a garage door that houses a car I don't even want  :Smile:   I did the math awhile back.  If we moved to downtown OKC we could live there simply on the money we save by moving there.  Think about that for a moment.

On the plus side, we have had two unsolicted inquires to rent our house from people who live in exurbia and can't afford to keep driving back into town for everything.

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## vaflyer

The new interest in multifamily housing is being driven mainly by economics and not by individual preferences. The new interest in multifamily housing comes primarily from individuals unable to purchase housing because they have a low credit score and/or do not have the 20% down payment necessary to buy a house. Hence, these people are forced into the rental market. That helps explain why Just the Facts received two rental offers on his house. I would further note the demand for multifamily housing is primarily for units with two or more bedrooms. Demand for single bedroom units is low because many young single people (the primary market for one bedroom units) are moving back with their parents instead of renting due to the economy.

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## Just the facts

> The new interest in multifamily housing is being driven mainly by economics and not by individual preferences. The new interest in multifamily housing comes primarily from individuals unable to purchase housing because they have a low credit score and/or do not have the 20% down payment necessary to buy a house. Hence, these people are forced into the rental market. That helps explain why Just the Facts received two rental offers on his house. I would further note the demand for multifamily housing is primarily for units with two or more bedrooms. Demand for single bedroom units is low because many young single people (the primary market for one bedroom units) are moving back with their parents instead of renting due to the economy.


I've always said economics is going to force the issue - and just not on this subject.

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## kevinpate

> ...On the plus side, we have had two unsolicted inquires to rent our house from people who live in exurbia and can't afford to keep driving back into town for everything.


If they seem dependable, and if you can sell the missus on it, it would appear a higher power (or dumb luck if someone prefers the notion) may be offering you a door to walk through toward a different path for your life.  Then again, maybe they were just trying to case the joint.  These things can be tricky sometimes.

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## Just the facts

> If they seem dependable, and if you can sell the missus on it,...


That is the big concern.  I am not real fond of putting my eggs in someone elses basket.  If they don't come through we would be screwed.

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## Spartan

> To each his own, but you do choose where you live.


Are you trying to argue that the existing housing stock, the majority of which was built between 1960-1990, easily accommodates alternative options?

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## bombermwc

> Are you trying to argue that the existing housing stock, the majority of which was built between 1960-1990, easily accommodates alternative options?


Wow, you didn't put any feeling into that one huh?

What i'm saying is, there are PLENTY options out there besides owning your own home. And if you don't like the responsibility that goes with it, there are also options around that. That doesn't only mean apartment living, but it certainly is an option.

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## Spartan

Sure, we have an abundant supply of most suburban residential models except for condos, which I've always thought were mysteriously absent from Central Oklahoma. Aside from that though, there isn't any way to argue that the urban models are sorely lacking, and I think that's what people were talking about. 

The market is not working because we have subsidized suburban sprawl to the point where the existing housing stock is very biased toward suburban models and low balls the true demand for urban models. This means that a lot of people wanting urban models are going to have to suck it up and live in the suburban model housing stock until the market can self correct. 

But the main takeaway is that it's completely disingenuous to argue that the market supports individuals living where they want, because actually the overwhelming majority of the housing stock is not in line with changing values, changing lifestyles, and changing styles.

As for feeling, there are no feelings to it. This is a fact-based scenario on the surface that requires no reading between the lines or outside interpretation.

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## Just the facts

To add tp Spartan's comment, those of us stuck in suburbia and want to move into an urban environment have to wait until we can find a sucker to buy our suburban house.

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## Soonerman

I want to see a World Market open in UNP.

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## Questor

> I want to see a World Market open in UNP.


Something like that would be great.  Hopefully the UNP folks are actively trying to find things like this and pull them in.

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## G22

What five to ten business would you all like to see open next in UNP?  Are there any business concepts that a local business could fill?

----------


## G.Walker

> What five to ten business would you all like to see open next in UNP?  Are there any business concepts that a local business could fill?


Camille's 
Apple
Nike
Cheesecake Factory
Another 8 to 10 story hotel.
Ralph Lauren
Whole Foods

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## soonerliberal

> What five to ten business would you all like to see open next in UNP?  Are there any business concepts that a local business could fill?


Apple
Crate and Barrel
Nordstrom or Saks (I'm dreaming now, of course)
Rugby or Ralph Lauren
Lacoste

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## jedicurt

> Another 8 to 10 story hotel.


last i heard talking to some people at the embassy suites... Hilton is still supposed to be building on the land directly south of the embassy... they said that they were hoping for it to already be started, and they are looking forward to it because they have lost a few conventions they were trying to get because there were not enough hotel room in the immediate area

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## ereid

I'll play to dream, as well.

H&M
Trader Joe's (Yes, I know it's a bad idea with such close proximity to the other grocery stores but I still want one!)  :Smile: 
The Container Store 
Saks
Apple

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## Questor

Sadly I think most or all of these probably fall into the category of fantasy, but you asked....

Einstein Bagels
Dave and Busters
Whole Foods
Freebirds World Burrito
Fry's
Banana Republic
ESPN Zone
Johnny Rockets
In 'n Out Burger
Checkers Drive In
Caribou Coffee
Buca di Beppo
McCormick and Schmicks

A fresh seafood market of any kind....

Any restaurant chain by a famous celebrity chef such as Bobby Flay, Wolfgang Puck, or Emeril Legasse....

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## jedicurt

i thought that they shut down all the ESPN Zones that were outside of LA and said that they weren't going to expand again... so that one absolutely is a fantasy.

and already had a freebirds in norman, it was ok.

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## G22

In n' Out Burger may actually be coming to Norman.  Last year they looked at Norman, OKC, and Tulsa. For some reason many of the national restaurant chains seem to hit Tulsa several years before they come to Norman or OKC.

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## G22

Are we getting a Holiday Inn and a Hilton?  I thought I recently read that the area south of the Embassy was going to be a Holiday Inn Express?

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## jedicurt

> Are we getting a Holiday Inn and a Hilton?  I thought I recently read that the area south of the Embassy was going to be a Holiday Inn Express?


perhaps they said holiday inn and i just heard hilton...

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## Soonerman

I'd like to see a Pappadeaux in UNP.

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## kevinpate

Holiday Inn Express by Embassey.

Hilton Garden Inn is west side I-35 frontage, sort of behind that row of eateries between robinson and main.

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## MikeLucky

> I'd like to see a Pappadeaux in UNP.


Yes, yes, and more yes.

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## Questor

Yes.  Very good chain.

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## dankrutka

I'd like to see a franchise like Pappadeaux locate on Main Street, instead of this weak project.

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## Easy180

> I'd like to see a franchise like Pappadeaux locate on Main Street, instead of this weak project.


Think it would look even nicer on 19th in Moore  :Cool:

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## Soonerman

Does anybody think Old Navy would come to UNP and close their Sooner Mall location? Not saying it would happen. But I noticed Old Navy seems to be downsizing their stores. I was thinking maybe they would open a smaller store at UNP.

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## Questor

It'll never happen, but there's a cool sushi buffet chain called Todai that would be a great addition.  I've eaten at the Dallas location and one of the locations in California.  I think the Dallas location has since closed.

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## Questor

DSW Shoes would be a good addition.  It seems like they are the only chain that keeps up with modern style and doesn't feel like a children's store.  A shame the metro only has one location.

It's very frustrating that chains that are considered 'upscale' are almost never present here, and when they are there's usually just one location in the entire metro.  And that we usually get these types of stores a few years after Tulsa.

----------


## Dekoung

> DSW Shoes would be a good addition.  It seems like they are the only chain that keeps up with modern style and doesn't feel like a children's store.  A shame the metro only has one location.
> 
> It's very frustrating that chains that are considered 'upscale' are almost never present here, and when they are there's usually just one location in the entire metro.  And that we usually get these types of stores a few years after Tulsa.


I would love to see a DSW in UNP.

Most of the dream businesses I have seen on this thread are IMO purely a dream.

----------


## venture

> Does anybody think Old Navy would come to UNP and close their Sooner Mall location? Not saying it would happen. But I noticed Old Navy seems to be downsizing their stores. I was thinking maybe they would open a smaller store at UNP.


All of Sooner Mall just needs to be relocated there. Create a much better concentration of retail to have the foot traffic to make it attractive to higher end retailers everyone wants. Then turn the old Sooner Mall location into high density housing and a business park.

----------


## Dubya61

Saw this idea before in this thread.  Like it still.

----------


## Just the facts

> All of Sooner Mall just needs to be relocated there. Create a much better concentration of retail to have the foot traffic to make it attractive to higher end retailers everyone wants. Then turn the old Sooner Mall location into high density housing and a business park.


Why, so UNP can be the Sooner Mall of 2030?  A city shouldn't have to be recreated every 20 to 30 years.  How about close up UNP and make all the buinesses move to Sooner Mall where all the city infrastructre already exist and is within walking distance of a large number of people.  Then use the money saved on building improvements around UNP to build a streetcar from Sooner Mall to downtown Norman and OU - where it can connect to a regional transit system for greater OKC with connecting rail transit to Tulsa.

----------


## venture

> Why, so UNP can be the Sooner Mall of 2030?  A city shouldn't have to be recreated every 20 to 30 years.  How about close up UNP and make all the buinesses move to Sooner Mall where all the city infrastructre already exist and is within walking distance of a large number of people.  Then use the money saved on building improvements around UNP to build a streetcar from Sooner Mall to downtown Norman and OU - where it can connect to a regional transit system for greater OKC with connecting rail transit to Tulsa.


Sooner Mall can't grow where it is. Physically it could always grow up I guess, but the infrastructure that already exists cannot handle the traffic in this area to make for a pleasant experience. The service road and mall roads are just poorly planned out and can make for a frustrating, and sometimes dangerous, experience when trying to exit mall property onto Main Street. Not to mention you have exiting interstate traffic merging in right as people are trying to go into the Mall. 

Cities are recreated and re-purposed all the time. Bricktown is a testament to that, unless you are against that whole redevelopment project. The infrastructure is already in place now in UNP. The roads, utilities, and a new improved access ramp to I-35. So that is a non-issue since the layout is superior to the crammed in nature of Sooner Mall. 

I don't get the "use the money saved on building improvements around UNP to build a streetcar" statement. That is just silly since the money being spent there now is mostly being done by the developers and business moving in, not the city. I would like to see a street car system involving UNP/Campus/Downtown/South Norman but that funding would come from a different source. Of course connecting to a light rail system to OKC won't happen until they get serious about wanting to do it.

----------


## soonerliberal

I don't see why UNP and Sooner Mall can't coexist peacefully.  If UNP could ever get its act together and truly design a lifestyle complex and lure top retail outlets, there would not be a problem.  Sooner Mall can continue being the low to mid range stores (JCP, Sears, Old Navy types) and allow UNP to have the higher end ones such as Dillards, Nordstrom (I can always dream), Anthropology, Urban, and Banana Republic as a few simple examples.  Of course UNP would have to lure many higher end stores that are seen elsewhere.

I mean if Columbus can support a center like this, then I truly do not understand why we wouldn't be able to do so.
http://www.eastontowncenter.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easton_Town_Center

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## Just the facts

If the money spent at UNP had been applied to Sooner Mall then Norman would be way ahead of the game.  As for bad traffic at Sooner Mall, what do you think UNP is going to be like in the future.  Everyone going to UNP has to drive to get there.  If you want to get rid of traffic get rid of the reason for traffic and provide alternatives to driving.  Otherwise you are just moving the problem around, which cost money.

----------


## BoulderSooner

sooner mall is in very good shape and didn't need the money that was spend at UNP

----------


## jedicurt

> If the money spent at UNP had been applied to Sooner Mall then Norman would be way ahead of the game.  As for bad traffic at Sooner Mall, what do you think UNP is going to be like in the future.  Everyone going to UNP has to drive to get there.  If you want to get rid of traffic get rid of the reason for traffic and provide alternatives to driving.  Otherwise you are just moving the problem around, which cost money.


who said anything about UNP being built to get rid of traffic????  UNP was built to try and turn a bit of land that wasn't being used into a development area for businesses to come in and provide a new shopping area.

----------


## traxx

I remember before UNP ever broke ground all the rumors surrounding it. First we heard it was going to be the 5th largest mall in the country - something to create a real draw. Then we were told that it was going to be upscale shopping with a lifestyle center. I had high hopes for this development as everyone did. I jumped off the bandwagon when they started putting in run-of-the-mill stores. I was told by many on here to just be patient. 

Well I've been patient. I drove by there just a couple of weeks ago and saw a tires plus. The businesses going in there are getting worse not better. What does that make? The third or fourth tire store in a two mile stretch? I believe I saw a nail salon in UNP at one point in time. Don't know if it's still there as that was quite a while ago. We've been sold a false bill of goods. The powers that be took a good parcel of land that could've have been something special and screwed it up. There's nothing in UNP that you can't get at any other strip mall in the greater metro area.

----------


## lasomeday

Just an upscale version of Choctaw's Town Center which will have a Wal-Mart.  Funny how suburban developers use urbanism to attract public support, but then strip it out before it is built.  Just think how popular these developments would be if they were urban in any possible way.

Have you been to Legacy Town just south of IKEA in Dallas?  That place is amazingly urban.  The have a bunch of ethnic restaurants, hotels, apartments, movie theater, and other services all in an urban environment.  I stayed with a friend there and spent one day just hanging out in the little urban area.

If Dallas can do it, so can Norman and suburban OKC!  We just need new developers that aren't stuck in the 70s and 80s and city council members that will stand up for what is promised as well as zoning laws that don't bend.

----------


## soonerliberal

Easton Town Center in Columbus, OH.  Just sayin.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Easton Town Center in Columbus, OH.  Just sayin.


This place, for a lifestyle center, is quite nice.

----------


## G.Walker

Looks like UNP is gaining momentum:

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | NewsOK.com

Moreover, I am glad for the improved transparency between the NEDC and the public. I wonder what aerospace company is brininging 400 jobs to Norman? These new jobs will be a game changer for Norman.

----------


## HangryHippo

I wondered about the jobs hint as well.  Says we should know by the end of October, but someone's got to know something already.  Maybe Traber's Colostomy?  He/She seems to be in the know...

----------


## adaniel

Sounds great!

I was just discussing about how, outside of York, there is very little industry in Cleveland County relative to their population. I hope the company moving in isn't some company from another part of OKC.

----------


## vaflyer

The newsok.com article also states that HomeGoods and DSW are coming to the UNP.  The wife is very happy.

----------


## venture

All around some pretty good news finally coming out of UNP. The business park is going to be a huge catalyst I have a feeling. Would like to see them rebuild Rwy 17/35 to be the standard 150 ft width and around 8000 ft long. It would allow it to handle corporate traffic that needs the extra length to make longer distance flights, permit larger corporate jets, and also allow charter aircraft for OU games to go directly to Norman instead of KOKC. It also opens the doors for more aerospace growth and the ability for OU to entertain expanding is Aviation school.

The entire runway expansion can easily fit into the existing airport footprint without having to do anything to Robinson or Flood. The biggest change might be putting power lines underground around the airport.

----------


## HangryHippo

Venture, have you heard anything about who this aviation company is that is supposedly coming to UNP?

----------


## OUman

> All around some pretty good news finally coming out of UNP. The business park is going to be a huge catalyst I have a feeling. Would like to see them rebuild Rwy 17/35 to be the standard 150 ft width and around 8000 ft long. It would allow it to handle corporate traffic that needs the extra length to make longer distance flights, permit larger corporate jets, and also allow charter aircraft for OU games to go directly to Norman instead of KOKC. It also opens the doors for more aerospace growth and the ability for OU to entertain expanding is Aviation school.
> 
> The entire runway expansion can easily fit into the existing airport footprint without having to do anything to Robinson or Flood. The biggest change might be putting power lines underground around the airport.


I don't know if a runway that long is even required at OUN. Larger corporate jets like the Gulfstream V can easily land/takeoff at OUN even today. Heck, there's one company that has even flown in one of its Dornier 328-100 turboprops, and that'sa full-size 32-seat passenger airplane (I've seen it landing there). Most corporate aircraft can safely operate with 5,200 feet of runway at OUN even when fully loaded (most like the Citations and Learjets don't even need 5,000 feet most of the time). Even three-engined Dassault Falcons can land and takeoff there. Unless you're talking about something like the Bombardier Global Express or the Lineage 1000 from Embraer (or the BBJ/ACJ types), but even they can do well with a runway length of 6,500 feet, which is much more probable for 17-35. Don't get me wrong, I would be pretty excited myself if a runway 8,000 feet long was present at OUN, just that I don't see the need for it given what types of aircraft regularly operate to/from the airfield.

Just my 2c. worth.  :Smile:

----------


## venture

> I don't know if a runway that long is even required at OUN. Larger corporate jets like the Gulfstream V can easily land/takeoff at OUN even today. Heck, there's one company that has even flown in one of its Dornier 328-100 turboprops, and that'sa full-size 32-seat passenger airplane (I've seen it landing there). Most corporate aircraft can safely operate with 5,200 feet of runway at OUN even when fully loaded (most like the Citations and Learjets don't even need 5,000 feet most of the time). Even three-engined Dassault Falcons can land and takeoff there. Unless you're talking about something like the Bombardier Global Express or the Lineage 1000 from Embraer (or the BBJ/ACJ types), but even they can do well with a runway length of 6,500 feet, which is much more probable for 17-35. Don't get me wrong, I would be pretty excited myself if a runway 8,000 feet long was present at OUN, just that I don't see the need for it given what types of aircraft regularly operate to/from the airfield.
> 
> Just my 2c. worth.


We've also had the Embraer 145 at OUN before, but I doubt it was full. Yeah I was thinking thelarger Global Exp and the BBJ/ACJ jets if every needed. The reason I said 8000 feet is thanks to our summers here, aircraft would need some extra room to run under hot conditions. However during the winter it wouldn't be an issue. Heck I've seen a fully loaded 727 hauling cargo take off from a 5300' runway. Then of course there is Midway and their short runways. However those two places rarely get very hot like OK.

I'm more looking 10 years down the road though as the business park matures.

----------


## j7m7l7

Approval by Council of new business park development and potential aerospace component. This on top of Legacy Park/drive construction work on 24th and recent openings of Valiance Bank, Chipotle, Starbucks, GNC, among other stores.

Legacy Park moves forward  Headlines  The Norman Transcript

----------


## Questor

> I would love to see a DSW in UNP.


In case you didn't see it in GWalker's post, you get your wish... DSW is coming to UNP:

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | NewsOK.com

A HomeGoods is also coming to UNP.  Several new stores have already recently opened including Starbucks, GNC, Chipotle, EarthFruits Yogurt (I think), and Weight Watchers.

The newest development actually has a nice modern look to it, especially the new bank.  I'll try to take some pictures of it soon.

----------


## catch22

> In case you didn't see it in GWalker's post, you get your wish... DSW is coming to UNP:
> 
> Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | NewsOK.com
> 
> A HomeGoods is also coming to UNP.  Several new stores have already recently opened including Starbucks, GNC, Chipotle, EarthFruits Yogurt (I think), and Weight Watchers.
> 
> The newest development actually has a nice modern look to it, especially the new bank.  I'll try to take some pictures of it soon.


Article says announcement of those 400 new jobs to be announced by end of October? So maybe we'll hear something by Wednesday. I'm curious as to who it is.

----------


## G.Walker

Looks like they are finally moving forward with Legacy Park, office park, and advanced manufacturing center, good deal:

Legacy Park moves forward  Local news  The Norman Transcript

----------


## gamecock

Another UNP update with a mention of the "Village Center" . . .

Bridge on Rock Creek Road offers Norman traffic relief | NewsOK.com

----------


## vaflyer

The Norman Transcript lists the two following real estate transactions in University North Park

Seller: UTC Area Six L L C; Buyer: Inland Diversified Norman University II L L C; Amount: $7,039,247.00; University North Park Sec 05, Lot 1, Block1

Seller: UTC II L L C; Buyer: Inland Diversified Norman University III L L C; Amount: $17,355,623.00; University North Park Sec 03 (Replat), Lot 1, Block1; Lot 2, Block1; Lot 2, Block2; BlockA, Bounds: Common area; University North Park Sec 06, Lot 2A, Block1

I believe that Inland Diversified is the company that bought the TJ Max/Petco area of the UNP a couple of years ago but I was wondering which property they bought. It would appear to me that this is undeveloped land but I am not sure. I find that confusing because I thought this company was a real estate trust company that owned established shopping centers and is not into building them. Anyone have any thoughts on which property they purchased and why?

----------


## GaryOKC6

Inland Real Estate Acquisitons, Inc.: We're Buying    They are made up of several companies under the name inland real estate aquisitions.

----------


## David

I saw this show up over the weekend at the end of the road between the Zio's/Five Guys building and that new bank.

IMAG0215.jpg

----------


## HangryHippo

Is the top of the proposed Crest's white in that photo?  If so, wasn't that a complaint about the building that houses Academy?  That would be hideous.

----------


## kevinpate

One small sign for Crest ... one giant leap for making Homeland a tad more nervous.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Is this going to be a Crest Market or just a regular Crest?

----------


## venture

> Is this going to be a Crest Market or just a regular Crest?


Supposedly identical to the one on South May.

----------


## mcca7596

> Is the top of the proposed Crest's white in that photo?  If so, wasn't that a complaint about the building that houses Academy?  That would be hideous.


I was going to say, I know it's just an initial rendering on a sign, but it doesn't look as good as the one on S. May.

----------


## Spartan

Yeah, that looks nothing close to the one on South May. That's just all EIFS.

----------


## MonkeesFan

> I saw this show up over the weekend at the end of the road between the Zio's/Five Guys building and that new bank.
> 
> IMAG0215.jpg


Looks like crap

----------


## kevinpate

True, but that just means it will blend in well with most of the UNP family.

----------


## johnpwoods

thats a generic crest pic. nothing like the design for this site.

----------


## Monkeypony

why dont they concentrate on making a nice walking area around there where folks can take a nice stroll or just hang out instead of focusing on more stores and more stores. at least for now!  i heard there were plans for a nice park?! ill bet if they came up with something really nice, norman residents would be totally for doing a sales tax to fund it.
right now it looks like a project gone astray..

----------


## HangryHippo

This article talks about the plans for Legacy Park.

----------


## venture

> why dont they concentrate on making a nice walking area around there where folks can take a nice stroll or just hang out instead of focusing on more stores and more stores. at least for now!  i heard there were plans for a nice park?! ill bet if they came up with something really nice, norman residents would be totally for doing a sales tax to fund it.
> right now it looks like a project gone astray..


Umm, aren't stores the point of a retail shopping district? 

Looks like the bids are in and Legacy Park will start moving forward finally.

----------


## choosegreen

> The Norman Transcript lists the two following real estate transactions in University North Park
> 
> Seller: UTC Area Six L L C; Buyer: Inland Diversified Norman University II L L C; Amount: $7,039,247.00; University North Park Sec 05, Lot 1, Block1
> 
> Seller: UTC II L L C; Buyer: Inland Diversified Norman University III L L C; Amount: $17,355,623.00; University North Park Sec 03 (Replat), Lot 1, Block1; Lot 2, Block1; Lot 2, Block2; BlockA, Bounds: Common area; University North Park Sec 06, Lot 2A, Block1
> 
> I believe that Inland Diversified is the company that bought the TJ Max/Petco area of the UNP a couple of years ago but I was wondering which property they bought. It would appear to me that this is undeveloped land but I am not sure. I find that confusing because I thought this company was a real estate trust company that owned established shopping centers and is not into building them. Anyone have any thoughts on which property they purchased and why?


Here is the $17+Million deal:
QS1.jpg
Here is the $7Million deal - do you know what is here?  It's on the east side of 24th Ave, almost to Robinson Ave
PDR.jpg

----------


## Dubya61

> Here is the $7Million deal - do you know what is here?  It's on the east side of 24th Ave, almost to Robinson Ave


If Google Maps is accurate, it's the Cox Communications Store / Pearl Vision store / GameStop store.

----------


## choosegreen

> If Google Maps is accurate, it's the Cox Communications Store / Pearl Vision store / GameStop store.


Yep! With Zios...thanks so much!!!

----------


## ljbab728

Norman City Council debates Legacy Park amenities | NewsOK.com

I thought this was a strange comment.




> Councilman Roger Gallagher questioned the need for additional lighting, especially if the park has an evening curfew.


I guess his park is for only when the sun is up.

----------


## venture

Yeah that's pretty silly of him. Especially with people getting robbed at the disc golf park.

----------


## gamecock

In one of the other articles I read regarding the additional amenities at Legacy Park, someone pointed out that "just because we have the money doesn't mean we have to spend it." This is attitude is something frustrating I have encountered since moving here from the East coast. There seems to be a tendency here to make things as bare bones as possible. Additional amenities, landscaping features, lighting, etc. are seen as wasteful expenses rather than as an investment. I really hope they will do their best to make this area nice. That's what those who voted for the TIF wanted in the first place.

----------


## Questor

I'd recommend you all go and give your two cents worth at a council meeting, but they'd just ignore you like they did the other thousand people on the west side recently.

Norman's council has got to go.  They're going to do whatever the heck they want with UNP, and they aren't going to care in the least what any of you think.

Look at who made the goofball comments in the above article... all the usual suspects.  The Mayor is not going to win the very reasonable arguments that she made in The Oklahoman story because of that.

Good luck Norman.

----------


## G.Walker

So whatever happened to the Advanced Manufacturing Center and new office park slated for UNP? For the past few years, news articles stated that the new office park was slated to start soon, but we haven't seen any dirt turned.

I honestly think that the current scope of the office park is too aggressive for UNP at this time, then need to start small, and let it grow naturally. Instead of 6,  60,000sqft office buildings, they should downsize, and start with 3, 75,000sqft buildings, and develop in phases, starting with one.

----------


## HangryHippo

> So whatever happened to the Advanced Manufacturing Center and new office park slated for UNP? For the past few years, news articles stated that the new office park was slated to start soon, but we haven't seen any dirt turned.
> 
> I honestly think that the current scope of the office park is too aggressive for UNP at this time, then need to start small, and let it grow naturally. Instead of 6,  60,000sqft office buildings, they should downsize, and start with 3, 75,000sqft buildings, and develop in phases, starting with one.


I was thinking about this myself earlier today.  They said there would be an announcement back in November regarding the aerospace company that was supposedly going to build there and jump start the office park, but we've heard nothing.  Probably means the deal fell through.

----------


## G.Walker

Its seems like the retail development in UNP is in full swing, but the office development is still on the boards. I think its time for the City of Norman and the NEDC to take a step back and revisit the office park development, and take a more conservative approach.

----------


## vaflyer

Building permits have been issued for the construction (which has started) of the following businesses next to Academy Sports in the UNP:

DSW 
HomeGoods
Michaels Arts & Crafts

Also, White House Black Market is coming to Brookhaven Village.

----------


## venture

Looks like 2nd area location for DSW, the other being up on Memorial.

With Home Goods it appears to be their first location in the state - HomeGoods | Blog | Unique Home Decor and Affordable Home Furnishings

Michaels I assume is going to relocate from Ed Noble Pkwy.

----------


## ShiroiHikari

Man, eventually everyone is going to relocate from Ed Noble Parkway and then that will be a bunch of ugly, empty storefronts. What's wrong with their current location?

----------


## venture

> Man, eventually everyone is going to relocate from Ed Noble Parkway and then that will be a bunch of ugly, empty storefronts. What's wrong with their current location?


As I've said many time, I would like to see the Ed Noble area, including Sooner Mall, transformed into more of business park area. That way you can concentrate all the retail major retail in one area.

----------


## vaflyer

> Man, eventually everyone is going to relocate from Ed Noble Parkway and then that will be a bunch of ugly, empty storefronts. What's wrong with their current location?


I believe that Michaels and Ulta are the only two stores to relocate from Ed Noble Parkway and Kirkland's is the only store (I believe) to relocate from the Sooner Mall to University North Park. Some time back, I recall the developer of University North Park stating that the number of stores relocating to the UNP from other places in Norman has been lower than they initially thought at this stage of the development.

----------


## ShiroiHikari

Problem is, they seem to make a new "concentrated retail area" every 15 years or so. I remember before Ed Noble, there were a lot of businesses on Main Street. Then everything moved from Main to Ed Noble. Now everything's moving from Ed Noble to UNP. It never ends.

It's true that only a couple of businesses have relocated to UNP, but a lot of others on Ed Noble have straight-up closed rather than relocated, such as SouperSalad and Marble Slab, and as I recall there were a lot of other small shops out that way that closed as well. The Ulta building was never re-used and has been sitting vacant this whole time.

----------


## HangryHippo

Here is an interesting article about the long-rumored business park area of University North Park.  I guess the "deal" they had with the advanced manufacturer fell through because the article states they're still negotiating with a potential client.

I wonder what this will look like...?

----------


## G.Walker

They have been producing articles about this project for years, but no dirt has turned. I will get excited when I start seeing earth movers and cranes.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> I believe that Michaels and Ulta are the only two stores to relocate from Ed Noble Parkway and Kirkland's is the only store (I believe) to relocate from the Sooner Mall to University North Park. Some time back, I recall the developer of University North Park stating that the number of stores relocating to the UNP from other places in Norman has been lower than they initially thought at this stage of the development.


OLD NAVY to Sooner mall, SPORTS CLIPS to UNP as well.

----------


## venture

> Here is an interesting article about the long-rumored business park area of University North Park.  I guess the "deal" they had with the advanced manufacturer fell through because the article states they're still negotiating with a potential client.
> 
> I wonder what this will look like...?


There is actually a picture of it in today's Transcript (print edition). I really like the setup. Best way to picture it is Rock Creek on the South, 24th NW on the west, Airport on the East. Pond right in the middle of that plot with 6 corporate buildings surrounding the lake making almost a * shape with green space between all the buildings. Parking completely surrounding those buildings on the edges of the property. Then on the east side at both the north and south corners would be airplane hangars to provide direct access to the airport.

----------


## catch22

Any chance you could take a picture or scan it, venture?

----------


## G.Walker



----------


## venture

There we go. I didn't really want to scan the pic from the paper with that whole copyright thing out there. Plus it probably wouldn't have been as clear as those above.  :Smile:

----------


## catch22

Awesome, thanks. So they are expecting a March groundbreaking on the whole smash, or it will be phased?

----------


## HangryHippo

Hmm, the black on the windows is ugly, and why does it have to be surrounded by parking every which way?

----------


## G.Walker

I am really not too fond of the design or layout either, it should be more dense with larger buildings. More glass, less brick, something like this, notice less surface parking lots:

----------


## MDot

G.W. nailed it.

----------


## HangryHippo

Yep.  Definitely something more like what GW posted.  I was thinking of something like the Woodlands, but I guess I should have remembered that we're in Oklahoma and we build things that look like 70s office parks still instead of nice office parks.

----------


## Just the facts

Lifestyle center indeed.




> We have to decide how we want to live because a city is only a means to a way of life. - Enrique Penalosa

----------


## G.Walker

Just an FYI, the design plans that they have for the new office park are nothing new, these plans and designs have been in place since 2007 when University North Park was on the drawing boards, its just now coming to fruition 6 years later. Which even leads me more to wonder why they don't go back and revisit design plans and programming.

----------


## venture

> Just an FYI, the design plans that they have for the new office park in nothing new, these plans and designs have been in place since 2007 when University North Park was on the drawing boards, its just now coming to fruition 6 years later. Which even leads me more to wonder why they don't go back and revisit design plans and programming.


Agree. I wonder though if they would be willing to ease off the brick requirement for the buildings. I have a feeling they are wanting everything to look the same hence less glass and more brick. Honestly though it shouldn't matter and would much rather see glass everywhere. Would also think they could make it feasible to eliminate the surface parking by having it in a micro parking garages that can be topped off with soil, grass, and trees.

----------


## G.Walker

The NEDC can do anything they want, it will just cost them more time and money, but in this world, time and money is everything. It seems they want this rushed out as soon as possible since its been a long delay in getting this project started. They should also consider adding a residential component to the area, that would work wonders. Live, Work, Play

----------


## kevinpate

> OLD NAVY to Sooner mall, ...


Having a semi-senior moment. Old Navy space at the mall was at one time Service Merchandise. But was it something else in between? 

One corner of the brain says yeah, it was ... oh darn, what was it. Other areas are telling me no way just shush up, go back to your nap and stop bothering folk.

----------


## Lindsay Architect

Valliance Bank has no brick and its the best looking building out there.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> Having a semi-senior moment. Old Navy space at the mall was at one time Service Merchandise. But was it something else in between? 
> 
> One corner of the brain says yeah, it was ... oh darn, what was it. Other areas are telling me no way just shush up, go back to your nap and stop bothering folk.


Other than vacant space, I don't remember any other tenant. Course,  I'm as old,  if not older than you.

----------


## ShiroiHikari

I only remember it being Service Merchandise. If it was ever anything else, it was before I was old enough to be coherent. :P What I want to know is what used to occupy that space where Stein Mart used to be. Or did they add that on...? Sorry, I'm getting off-topic.

Holy crap. Think they have enough parking surrounding that business park? Nothing wrong with parking garages. Or would that require too much effort? Also how long do you think that pond will last before it falls into disrepair and gets drained?

I guess I'm just a Negative Nancy today.

----------


## zachj7

Man that office park is ugly. Naturally Norman would have something like that. I guess its better than nothing. I'd much rather see buildings closer to the street or a better landscape than all that parking. Hopefully some of this action will actually produce a decent grocery store up there. I am sick of crapland and walmart. The only decent place to get groceries is either at Target. Natural Grocers is a start but lacking. Please bring Spouts, trader joes, whole foods, or The Fresh Market to Norman!

----------


## rcjunkie

> Man that office park is ugly. Naturally Norman would have something like that. I guess its better than nothing. I'd much rather see buildings closer to the street or a better landscape than all that parking. Hopefully some of this action will actually produce a decent grocery store up there. I am sick of crapland and walmart. The only decent place to get groceries is either at Target. Natural Grocers is a start but lacking. Please bring Spouts, trader joes, whole foods, or The Fresh Market to Norman!


Where have you been, Sprouts and Crest are both under construction.

----------


## ChargerAg

> Where have you been, Sprouts and Crest are both under construction.


I keep wondering how sprouts did not end up a UNP.   It sure seems like it would be a better fit then on main.

----------


## ShiroiHikari

I'm glad Sprouts is going on Main. UNP already has Target, is about to have Crest, and has Homeland less than a mile away. Then a little ways down the street, you have Walmart. I think the westside is pretty well-served already, thank you very much. 

We need more _decent_ grocery stores closer to the eastside/campus area. I'm sick of driving all the way across town for a more enjoyable shopping experience. Plus, someone needs to occupy that big hulking space where Hobby Lobby used to be.

----------


## venture

> I'm glad Sprouts is going on Main. UNP already has Target, is about to have Crest, and has Homeland less than a mile away. Then a little ways down the street, you have Walmart. I think the westside is pretty well-served already, thank you very much. 
> 
> We need more _decent_ grocery stores closer to the eastside/campus area. I'm sick of driving all the way across town for a more enjoyable shopping experience. Plus, someone needs to occupy that big hulking space where Hobby Lobby used to be.


Agreed. Many need to realize the city isn't centered on I-35. Those are the western sections of the city. Need to start filling in the core with basic services.

----------


## zachj7

> Where have you been, Sprouts and Crest are both under construction.


Really!? I guess I'm out of the loop! Where exactly is the crest going to be up at target? I am glad Sprouts is going to be closer to OU campus more in the heart of Norman! I am too busy with school to realize these stores are finally going to come. No more driving waaaay up into OKC for some decent groceries though It would be nice to have a whole foods in Norman! 

I agree, West Norman needs something. Same with south east Norman.

----------


## venture

> Really!? I guess I'm out of the loop! Where exactly is the crest going to be up at target? I am glad Sprouts is going to be closer to OU campus more in the heart of Norman! I am too busy with school to realize these stores are finally going to come. No more driving waaaay up into OKC for some decent groceries though It would be nice to have a whole foods in Norman! 
> 
> I agree, West Norman needs something. Same with south east Norman.


West Norman has plenty already...that is where all this development (UNP) is located. Central and East Norman need more. Well...I guess you could say Central since Norman includes everything out past the lake. LOL

----------


## rjstone208

For what it's worth, talked to an assistant at Whole Foods when we were there Saturday who said the next WF will be in Norman. According to him WF had a spot picked but couldn't close the deal and are now looking for another location in Norman.  He did say, however, that WF is very methodical when it comes to opening new stores and last he heard it will be 2014 or so before anything is definitized.

----------


## kevinpate

> Really!? I guess I'm out of the loop! Where exactly is the crest going to be up at target?  ...


Crest will go in to the east (behind) the IBC bank, and the strip of shops that includes Five Guys, Mattress Whichever, Zio's, a game store and a Pearl's eyewear. Initial site work is now underway.

----------


## ShiroiHikari

> For what it's worth, talked to an assistant at Whole Foods when we were there Saturday who said the next WF will be in Norman. According to him WF had a spot picked but couldn't close the deal and are now looking for another location in Norman.  He did say, however, that WF is very methodical when it comes to opening new stores and last he heard it will be 2014 or so before anything is definitized.


I'll believe it when it's built and open for business.

----------


## rjstone208

Yeah, me too.  I kinda take these with a grain of salt until I see dirt moving and a coming soon sign.

----------


## venture

I honestly can't see Whole Foods going into UNP...you are going to have Homeland on the South end, Crest right across the street with Target, and then Walmart NM on the north end. That's just too much in one area. Perhaps a location near downtown would work for them. It would be a short distance from campus and the thousands of people there. It also wouldn't be too difficult to reach by the rest of the Norman populace.

----------


## rcjunkie

> I honestly can't see Whole Foods going into UNP...you are going to have Homeland on the South end, Crest right across the street with Target, and then Walmart NM on the north end. That's just too much in one area. Perhaps a location near downtown would work for them. It would be a short distance from campus and the thousands of people there. It also wouldn't be too difficult to reach by the rest of the Norman populace.


Not trying to change the subject, but they have started the dirt work for the new Walmart NM

----------


## DowntownMan

What happened to the hotel across from the embassy. Seems like it was announced and they cleared the LAN and now the plot is for sale again.

----------


## blink

There seems to be no discussion of this... when did the Starbucks open in UNP?  I drove by and saw it bustling with activity yesterday.

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## kevinpate

> There seems to be no discussion of this... when did the Starbucks open in UNP?  I drove by and saw it bustling with activity yesterday.


Hadn't noticed. But I also forgot one was even erected in UNP.

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## DowntownMan

I believe it opened in August or September. Seems to be staying busy even with one across the street in Target and also a mile over on 36th.

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## ShiroiHikari

Yeah, it's been open for a few months now. When it first opened it was a great place to go write because nobody knew it was there yet. Now it's crowded all the time just like all the other locations. *sigh*

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## BoulderSooner

update on the crest   and 2 other stores 

Grocers bite in Norman market; the city expects a Crest Foods, Sprouts Farmers Market and Walmart Neighborhood Market in 2013 | News OK

----------


## ChargerAg

> update on the crest   and 2 other stores 
> 
> Grocers bite in Norman market; the city expects a Crest Foods, Sprouts Farmers Market and Walmart Neighborhood Market in 2013 | News OK


that sure doesn't look like much brick in the artist rendering.

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## metro

yeah that is a crappy rendering.

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## G22

What businesses are going in next to Academy? It looks like several stores are being added to the current building.

----------


## j7m7l7

DSW and Homegoods are the two additions I am aware of at this time.

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## Roger S

Micheal's and Lane Bryant will be moving in there.

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## G22

Do you think the city of Norman is working to convince GE to build their new $110 million global research center in University of North Park?  If GE built the research center in Norman it could really re-energize development in UNP.   

Read more: GE to Build Gas-Focused Center in Oklahoma, Create 125 High-Tech Jobs | Fox Business

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## venture

It would be a huge boost if it were to happen. The ability to walk out of your building to your aircraft is also a huge selling point to a company like this. Being near a major university isn't bad either.  :Wink:

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## G.Walker

I know that last year, the Norman Economic Development Coalition was stating that an Advanced Manufacturing Center was looking to locate in UNP, but it was related to the aerospace industry. I don't know if that project fell through or if its still in the works, because they haven't reported anything on it since like September/October of last year. But if UNP was to get the new GE research center as well as the Advanced Aerospace Manufacturing center, it would be a game changer for UNP. We are talking hundreds of high paying jobs exclusively injected into that area. This would spur economic development from all aspects, retail, residential, and commercial. 

Just securing one of these projects would probably finally kick off the long awaited and proposed Lifestyle Center as well as University North Park Corporate Centre.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I know that last year, the Norman Economic Development Coalition was stating that an Advanced Manufacturing Center was looking to locate in UNP, but it was related to the aerospace industry. I don't know if that project fell through or if its still in the works, because they haven't reported anything on it since like September/October of last year. But if UNP was to get the new GE research center as well as the Advanced Aerospace Manufacturing center, it would be a game changer for UNP. We are talking hundreds of high paying jobs exclusively injected into that area. This would spur economic development from all aspects, retail, residential, and commercial. 
> 
> Just securing one of these projects would probably finally kick off the long awaited and proposed Lifestyle Center as well as University North Park Corporate Centre.


At this point, I think it's almost a certainty that the aerospace facility deal is dead.  Too bad we never heard what the details were.

----------


## onthestrip

> Do you think the city of Norman is working to convince GE to build their new $110 million global research center in University of North Park?  If GE built the research center in Norman it could really re-energize development in UNP.   
> 
> Read more: GE to Build Gas-Focused Center in Oklahoma, Create 125 High-Tech Jobs | Fox Business





> It would be a huge boost if it were to happen. The ability to walk out of your building to your aircraft is also a huge selling point to a company like this. Being near a major university isn't bad either.


I dont see an industrial facility that employs only 125 people re-energizing UNP's retail develpment. This GE thing, if it were to locate in UNP, will essentially have no effect on the retail.

Also, the fact that there is an airport nearby doesnt seem like it would be much of a factor in deciding the location. Its not as if GE execs would be flying company jets in and out on a frequent basis. Most GE people coming and going will probably be upper management folks who will be coming in on commercial flights.

----------


## G.Walker

> I dont see an industrial facility that employs only 125 people re-energizing UNP's retail develpment. This GE thing, if it were to locate in UNP, will essentially have no effect on the retail.
> 
> Also, the fact that there is an airport nearby doesnt seem like it would be much of a factor in deciding the location. Its not as if GE execs would be flying company jets in and out on a frequent basis. Most GE people coming and going will probably be upper management folks who will be coming in on commercial flights.


This is not going to stay at 125 employees, it will grow, this was stated by GE.

----------


## ou48A

> This is not going to stay at 125 employees, it will grow, this was stated by GE.



Not only that they would be paid well above average wages for engineers who would easily be able to afford well above average goods and services. Some of these employees will be plenty valuable enough to be flown around by GE planes to visit some of the worlds energy problems. Others, from the energy companies will visit the GE facility by corporate planes. All this + the futuer growth is very good news for Norman retailers.

----------


## G.Walker

> Not only that they would be paid well above average wages for engineers who would easily be able to afford well above average goods and services. Some of these employees will be plenty valuable enough to be flown around by GE planes to visit some of the worlds energy problems. Others, from the energy companies will visit the GE facility by corporate planes. All this + the futuer growth is very good news for Norman retailers.


Yes, and after the Norman Economic Development Coalition lost out on the 500 employee PETCO support center to San Antonio a few years ago, D.Woods and the City of Norman have been trying to redeem themselves ever since. Securing this research center in UNP would be a major accomplishment for him and the City of Norman.

----------


## rcjunkie

> I dont see an industrial facility that employs only 125 people re-energizing UNP's retail develpment. This GE thing, if it were to locate in UNP, will essentially have no effect on the retail.
> 
> Also, the fact that there is an airport nearby doesnt seem like it would be much of a factor in deciding the location. Its not as if GE execs would be flying company jets in and out on a frequent basis. Most GE people coming and going will probably be upper management folks who will be coming in on commercial flights.


So they only hire employees that don't shop or eat lunch, interesting

----------


## okrednk

> I dont see an industrial facility that employs only 125 people re-energizing UNP's retail develpment. This GE thing, if it were to locate in UNP, will essentially have no effect on the retail.
> 
> Also, the fact that there is an airport nearby doesnt seem like it would be much of a factor in deciding the location. Its not as if GE execs would be flying company jets in and out on a frequent basis. Most GE people coming and going will probably be upper management folks who will be coming in on commercial flights.



Not trying to nitpick, but if one person out of the 125 people made a purchase at any of the local retail stores.  Wouldn't this be considered an effect?  I am assuming having close proximity for the 125 people to the retail stores, would have some effect.  Though it may not be a large effect, it is definitely a start and would in fact re-energize the building movement.  Especially if there is a potential to expand and grow with employees in the future.  "Build it and they will come."

----------


## onthestrip

Sure, these 125 employees will likely shop there on occassion. So the stores will get a little boost, but nothing major by any means. I mostly meant that this doesnt mean new retailers are going to be lining up to come because of this. Retailers look at much more than that. They look at nearby housetops, income, and traffic count. Someone building a plant nearby for 125 employees, even well paid ones, isnt going to matter all that much to national retailers.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Sure, these 125 employees will likely shop there on occassion. So the stores will get a little boost, but nothing major by any means. I mostly meant that this doesnt mean new retailers are going to be lining up to come because of this. Retailers look at much more than that. They look at nearby housetops, income, and traffic count. Someone building a plant nearby for 125 employees, even well paid ones, isnt going to matter all that much to national retailers.


There will be 125 PhD level positions in this facility.  They are not the only employees that will be in the facility.  With engineers comes support staffs...  There will be administrative staff, management staff, cleaning crews, IT staff, maintenance staff, Human Resources... etc...

If UNP lands this facility there WILL be a positive impact to the retail presence in the area... period.

----------


## onthestrip

> There will be 125 PhD level positions in this facility.  They are not the only employees that will be in the facility.  With engineers comes support staffs...  There will be administrative staff, management staff, cleaning crews, IT staff, maintenance staff, Human Resources... etc...
> 
> If UNP lands this facility there WILL be a positive impact to the retail presence in the area... period.


Positive for existing retailers, yes. But Im saying that it wont be a deciding factor for retailers that arent there yet. This wont have much impact on their decision to sign a new lease or not.

----------


## ou48A

> Positive for existing retailers, yes. But Im saying that it wont be a deciding factor for retailers that arent there yet. This wont have much impact on their decision to sign a new lease or not.


This GE research center will have collaborating research with OU and very likely with third party researchers from other major corporations and they would likely live in the Norman area. This will create additional direct employment opportunities and if this center grows as many suspect it will create hundreds of additional high paying jobs. It’s the prospect of growth that will make a big difference to some of the high end retailers. Raw job numbers are not the only factor that business looks at. How much disposable income there is becomes a huge component in their decision making process.

----------


## venture

I'm more or less looking at the potential GE facility as an anchor to kick off the business park aspect of UNP. Once they are signed, others will follow to start filling in that area.

----------


## ou48A

Norman already has the high profile NOAA weather center.
But as this moves forward Norman / OU will increasingly be known as a place where important research is done.
 It will get the attention of the research world.
If the state, Norman and OU will continue its incentive support it will increases the odds of other researchers moving to Norman for their research projects, further elevating Norman/ OU, but also helping the entire state.

----------


## onthestrip

> This GE research center will have collaborating research with OU and very likely with third party researchers from other major corporations and they would likely live in the Norman area. This will create additional direct employment opportunities and if this center grows as many suspect it will create hundreds of additional high paying jobs. Its the prospect of growth that will make a big difference to some of the high end retailers. Raw job numbers are not the only factor that business looks at. How much disposable income there is becomes a huge component in their decision making process.


Retailers have no idea of what employees make at nearby businesses. They do know what the income is of nearby households though (I think we can assume not all of these engineers will be living within a 5 mile radius). And thats more of a factor on picking locations. Not saying this wont be positive but I think yall are overstating GE's capability of luring new retailers to come. 

I think Im done arguing this though seeing how no one even knows where GE is going to build this thing. I should have stayed off this thread like I do the mystery tower thread, the rampant speculation gets old. But being in the retail/real estate business, I just wanted to correct some misinformation I read.

----------


## ou48A

> Retailers have no idea of what employees make at nearby businesses. They do know what the income is of nearby households though (I think we can assume not all of these engineers will be living within a 5 mile radius). And thats more of a factor on picking locations. Not saying this wont be positive but I think yall are overstating GE's capability of luring new retailers to come. 
> 
> I think Im done arguing this though seeing how no one even knows where GE is going to build this thing. I should have stayed off this thread like I do the mystery tower thread, the rampant speculation gets old. But being in the retail/real estate business, I just wanted to correct some misinformation I read.


The smart retailer’s absolutely having a very decent idea of what high end employees make (disposable income) at a major nearby business. I know this because of past personal contacts with the Dallas area Chamber of commerce.
They have this stuff down to an art and science.

----------


## G22

If you work in retail/real estate you know how much big data is used by groups making commercial deals. That data includes the number of high paying jobs are in the local area.  The GE center alone would not make a major impact but if GE moves into the area several other business are going to move into UNP because they directly provide B2B service/sales to GE or because they want their company to be near a major player. Imagine this elevator pitch from a strong startup: Hi I'm from ABC Energy and we are on Walnut street or Hi I'm from ABC Energy and we are located next to GE. Which one grabs your attention?    
When GE builds they will draw other industries to build near their research center.  Five hundred well paid employees in the area will make a significant impact by adding to the number of high income people working and/or living in Norman.

----------


## ChargerAg

looks like steel work finally started on crest.

----------


## vaflyer

Here is a portion of the Norman City Council Conference Minutes from March 12, 2013 regarding the UNP. There is a lot of interesting information here.

Mr. Collett provided a site marketing plan composite and highlighted the existing buildings, buildings under construction, and proposed future construction and buildings coming soon to UNP. The plan also reflected Legacy Trail and the pathway/pedestrian path. He said Mathis Brothers and possibly Chuck E. Cheese, will be located on the far north side of UNP (Lot 7) behind Kohls and both businesses are very excited to come to Norman. Currently infrastructure needs are being studied and developers foresee the area being viable sooner, rather than later. Mr. Collett felt more family and home-related businesses would follow. He said a contract is underway but not completed with Residence Inn Hotel and feels certain that it will transpire within a year. Mr. Collett said the Town Center has engaged in meetings, various real estate conventions, and active discussions with tenants that UNP Development has always dreamed of having. He said approaching the Town Center, the architecture steps up as people and/or vehicles proceed which has always been the intention. 

Mr. Collett provided an overview of the current and proposed pedestrian path beginning at the entrance wall features into UNP as well as pedestrian paths in and around UNP including Legacy Park. He said the iconic tower is the exclamation point of UNP and will be visible from I-35 and Robinson Street, which he feels will help draw the iconic tenants that are wanted and deserved at UNP. The proposal also reflects a walking path from John Q. Hammons Embassy Hotel and Conference Center located on Conference Center Drive and west around the detention pond at Legacy Park, which will allow connectivity from the park to the conference center as well as the rest of the Town Center located south of the conference center. 

The proposed entry wall at Robinson Street and 24th Avenue N.W. is approximately eight feet, six inches (86) to the top of the planter feature and will be an attention-getter without blocking out the locations and/or activities within UNP. The proposed design will include the name Town Center University North Park on the wall with a multi-colored lighting feature and a landscape concept that will be top quality and exude class. Mr. Collett said the proposed entry will be subtle yet pop thus creating an entry feature that people will recognize and certainly remember. He said the proposal includes an iconic tower located at Legacy Drive and possible entryways at both Rock Creek Road and Tecumseh Road. The main entry adjacent to the iconic tower is part of the Town Center and will be the first portion built that is to be deeded with the Town Center.

Mr. Collett said Zoes Kitchen, a Mediterranean upscale restaurant, will be a free-standing building located north of Chipotle Restaurant and the anticipated opening date should be mid to late summer 2013. He said the architecture is unique and, in his opinion, resets the standard for the architecture in the Town Center. Mr. Collett said there is tremendous tenant interest in lifestyle categories from tenants you might see at malls, restaurants, etc., and UNP developers are very excited. He presented renderings of the architecture elements for proposed businesses within UNP and the Village Center including the Legacy Place Building and the 50-foot Legacy Place iconic tower to be located at Legacy Drive and 24th Avenue N.W. The area will have major landscaping, slanted parking, and will have the main entry signage for Legacy Place. The Legacy Place iconic tower will include a fire feature that will accentuate the entrance and be visually pleasing to the eye. The fire will only burn at night and be environmentally safe. He said the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) should be fine with the tower, and the pole holding the flame is four (4) feet with the flame itself from two to six feet tall. Mr. Collett felt like the iconic tower will be fresh and new and something that no other city will have.

----------


## Questor

It'll be interesting to see if they deliver on this or if it ends up being hype.

----------


## kevinpate

There is hope ... more so if one doesn't look real closely at what has already come before.

----------


## Dekoung

[QUOTE=vaflyer;644856]. He said Mathis Brothers and possibly Chuck E. Cheese, will be located on the far north side of UNP (Lot 7) behind Kohls and both businesses are very excited to come to Norman. 

A big whoop! Not.

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## G22

Does anyone have pictures or renderings of the proposed Village Center and the 50-foot Legacy Place iconic tower?  Will the Legacy Place Building be the main retail building for the Village Center? Is there any word on when any of this will start? Are there any plans to include residential housing on the top floors in the Village Center?

----------


## vaflyer

unp0313b.jpgunp0313c.jpgunp0313a.jpgunp0313d.jpg

The following pictures are from the developers meeting with Norman city council in March 2013.

----------


## HangryHippo

> unp0313b.jpgunp0313c.jpgunp0313a.jpg


Where did you find these?

Also, I'm surprised there's not going to be any housing at all in here.  Maybe to the north?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

My o' my how I wish Edmond would get something like this! Happy for Norman, but jealous at the same time. Hope it passes, this is Frisco like shopping here!!!!!!!

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## catch22

All that unused parking in those renderings. Lots of people walking around. Seems developers will do whatever they can to make strip malls look good in renderings.

Too bad they don't show the full parking lot of cars and no people walking around.

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## jedicurt

ugh... Norman deserves better than this... sadly those in charge do not agree.  Dont get me wrong, it sure looks nice... but it's just not what we should be striving for.  i agree, housing should be included in this project, and a much more urban fill

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## Plutonic Panda

Wow, I thought it looked really nice. There has to be parking for cars, esp. in a suburban environment. From what I can see, it looks to be pretty high quality development.

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## catch22

Looks can be deceiving, especially with renderings. This design might appear nice but it is no different than the rest of UNP. Strip mall.

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## Geographer

> Wow, I thought it looked really nice. There has to be parking for cars, esp. in a suburban environment. From what I can see, it looks to be pretty high quality development.


This type of development is unsustainable and will end up like every other strip center type development.  Just look at the strip development on Ed Noble Parkway...I bet it was nice when it was first built.  I hate that UNP is just another strip center with some pretty brick buildings. It's not walkable, its only drivable and it is not a "town center" as it should be. No housing, just more chain stores and restaurants.

To address parking...theres ALWAYS more parking than what is needed or required. Parking creates barriers for walkability.

----------


## OKCbrew

You know, I've always wondered what the resistance is to parking garages here in Oklahoma. I'm sure it's just ignorance on my part, but it seems like even in a suburban development like UNP you'd get huge benefits from having maybe a 3 or 4 level garage. Visually you'd avoid a lot of ugly parking lots by stacking them and everything could fit together a bit nicer. As a patron you'd be parked in the shade (huge benefit in this state, right?) and be able to walk short distances to the shops all while still being able to maintain your suburban experience of driving up and down bloody Robinson street. Wouldn't everyone win? Maybe it's cost or something. All I know is I just don't understand how it all ends up like this.

----------


## Geographer

> You know, I've always wondered what the resistance is to parking garages here in Oklahoma. I'm sure it's just ignorance on my part, but it seems like even in a suburban development like UNP you'd get huge benefits from having maybe a 3 or 4 level garage. Visually you'd avoid a lot of ugly parking lots by stacking them and everything could fit together a bit nicer. As a patron you'd be parked in the shade (huge benefit in this state, right?) and be able to walk short distances to the shops all while still being able to maintain your suburban experience of driving up and down bloody Robinson street. Wouldn't everyone win? Maybe it's cost or something. All I know is I just don't understand how it all ends up like this.



It's mostly cost...building a parking garage instead of a surface parking lot is astronomically more expensive...and when you're in a state where land is relatively cheap, why would you build up when you can easily build out? I hate arguing that point because im totally in favor of parking garages but im realistic

----------


## OKCbrew

> It's mostly cost...building a parking garage instead of a surface parking lot is astronomically more expensive...and when you're in a state where land is relatively cheap, why would you build up when you can easily build out? I hate arguing that point because im totally in favor of parking garages but im realistic


Yeah, I figured it would have to be cost. Feels like local developers are focused on quantity and quick returns over quality and long term sustainability. Really bums me out sometimes.

----------


## venture

> This type of development is unsustainable and will end up like every other strip center type development.  Just look at the strip development on Ed Noble Parkway...I bet it was nice when it was first built.  I hate that UNP is just another strip center with some pretty brick buildings. It's not walkable, its only drivable and it is not a "town center" as it should be. No housing, just more chain stores and restaurants.
> 
> To address parking...theres ALWAYS more parking than what is needed or required. Parking creates barriers for walkability.


Keep in mind the "town center" isn't even built yet, so can't really complain about that right now.

----------


## G22

Would you like the lifestyle center if it was designed similar to The Shops at La Cantera in San Antonio? The Shops at La Cantera | America's Premier Shopping Places   Photo Gallery at the bottom of the page.

----------


## HangryHippo

That's a beautiful shopping center, but were missing the boat by not including housing.

----------


## Spartan

> It'll be interesting to see if they deliver on this or if it ends up being hype.


Track record......

To call this a lifestyle center is kind of a joke.

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## Rover

It is a long way from being fully developed.  We want everything completed yesterday.

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## Spartan

I am not talking about just what has been developed.

Why is there this persistent refusal to LOOK at renderings and site plans. I see parking. Not lifestyle. It's that simple.

Yes, lifestyle centers need parking, too. But it usually isn't the first thing you see when you look at them. There is no attempt here to build a shopping center that other states are building in 2013.

----------


## G.Walker

UNP has developed into a modern stripmall with nice landscaping and parking lots.

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## vaflyer

The UNP TIF district was formed to be economic development tool for the City of Norman. The logic was to build a high-quality development that would be attractive to tenants that would be a regional draw. People from around the region then would shop there and pay sales taxes to the City of Norman. For the regional draw part to work, the development ideally needs to be near a freeway (the UNP is) and it must have ample parking because people outside the City of Norman must drive to get there.  One can debate whether or not the UNP is actually a regional draw, but the decision to have ample parking is consistent with the UNPs intended purpose of being a regional draw.

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## G22

I wish more people would include real life examples of what they want to see in UNP.  Do you want Bal Harbour Shops, Third Street Promenade, Utica Square, Pearl Street Mall, a mini version of Madrid, or a something you've seen on the East Coast?

I think it would be great if UNP developed into something similar to The Shops at La Cantera but with housing added to the second & third story.   The UNP lifestyle center should have plenty of parking in the general area but the main shopping area can easly be built to promote walking.   Numerous shade structures and trees were included when they built The Shops at La Cantera so when you are walking around outside in July you aren't melting and you aren't angry that your car is a block away. 
It is possible to create the best of both worlds.  I know that isn't happening at the moment but please share your vision.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Would you like the lifestyle center if it was designed similar to The Shops at La Cantera in San Antonio? The Shops at La Cantera | America's Premier Shopping Places   Photo Gallery at the bottom of the page.


I would love to see something like that here. It's the first outdoor shopping center I've seen that has a Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus, among others.

----------


## kevinpate

My vision would be drop the CVS/Walgreen mentality on business recruiting. Three mattress hawkers, even if one is larger and nicer than the other two, in a 1/4 mile is a bit much. Chipotle across from Qdoba? Logan's next to Chedders?  Thus far it's been pretty much the Magnificently Mundune Mile of Eh.

----------


## Questor

Just speaking for myself, I want what was shown in the original pitch for UNP... I posted links and the works many pages back... But basically the photos of a real life style center, I think in Scottsdale, were thrown out there for reference or inspiration by the developers. What they've built doesn't look like that or any life style center I have been to. Their latest renderings have some inspiration from that very first pitch, but it's clearly a downgrade. 

The original pitch also hinted at world class or at least US gourmet restaurants. I'd love to see something there from Wolfgang Puck or Emeril Legasse, but I know it'll never happen since we never set such lofty goals around here. At this point we'd be lucky to see a PF Changs.

----------


## Chicken In The Rough

So far, UNP looks like a Norman version of Belle Isle Station. I'm holding out that it will improve, but to date, it's a complete disappointment. It's actually not as bad as Belle Isle. Belle Isle pisses me off every time I drive by - I'm just disappointed and somewhat indifferent to UNP. These renderings demonstrate better design than we've seen before, but I still cannot tell if this is anything more than a dressed-up big box center. Belle Isle and other OKC-area developments have killed all the faith I once had in developers and city planners.

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## Spartan

> The UNP TIF district was formed to be economic development tool for the City of Norman. The logic was to build a high-quality development that would be attractive to tenants that would be a regional draw. People from around the region then would shop there and pay sales taxes to the City of Norman. For the regional draw part to work, the development ideally needs to be near a freeway (the UNP is) and it must have ample parking because people outside the City of Norman must drive to get there.  One can debate whether or not the UNP is actually a regional draw, but the decision to have ample parking is consistent with the UNPs intended purpose of being a regional draw.


Nobody is debating the number of parking spaces that should be allowed, or even whether it should just be surface parking. What I don't understand is why the parking isn't pushed to the back to allow for at least something resembling a cheesy lifestyle center. This has always been proposed as a lifestyle center, and that's why the citizens including myself back when I was still in Norman, voted for it. It wasn't a matter of doing economic development behind a strip mall (I promise you, that would have been voted down) but it was the idea that a public-private partnership could accomplish superior economic development with a superior lifestyle development. Now build at least a cheesy lifestyle center.

And no revisionist history. We didn't just vote for a strip mall.

----------


## vaflyer

> Nobody is debating the number of parking spaces that should be allowed, or even whether it should just be surface parking. What I don't understand is why the parking isn't pushed to the back to allow for at least something resembling a cheesy lifestyle center. This has always been proposed as a lifestyle center, and that's why the citizens including myself back when I was still in Norman, voted for it. It wasn't a matter of doing economic development behind a strip mall (I promise you, that would have been voted down) but it was the idea that a public-private partnership could accomplish superior economic development with a superior lifestyle development. Now build at least a cheesy lifestyle center.
> 
> And no revisionist history. We didn't just vote for a strip mall.


I agree that not all parts of the UNP have worked out like many (including myself) would have wanted. There are parts that I like (Embassy Suites, Super Target, DSW) and parts I do not (Dollar Tree, Academy (the building), Discount Tire). Remember, they developers always said that the strip mall component would be developed first to bring up the traffic counts so the lifestyle center would be viable. That being said, the City of Norman should continue to push the developers to uphold the high standards that everyone wanted when the TIF was approved.

The most recent presentation by developers offered some encouraging signs (the tower, Zoes Kitchen, and the new Mathis Brothers store) but some on this blog want to continue put down this development for any reason they can find. I know this development is not currently at the level many of us had wanted but I am seeing many encouraging signs that suggest things are improving.

----------


## Spartan

> I agree that not all parts of the UNP have worked out like many (including myself) would have wanted. There are parts that I like (Embassy Suites, Super Target, DSW) and parts I do not (Dollar Tree, Academy (the building), Discount Tire). Remember, they developers always said that the strip mall component would be developed first to bring up the traffic counts so the lifestyle center would be viable. That being said, the City of Norman should continue to push the developers to uphold the high standards that everyone wanted when the TIF was approved.
> 
> The most recent presentation by developers offered some encouraging signs (the tower, Zoe’s Kitchen, and the new Mathis Brothers store) but some on this blog want to continue put down this development for any reason they can find. I know this development is not currently at the level many of us had wanted but I am seeing many encouraging signs that suggest things are improving.


It's not putting down the development for any reason that we can find, it's just that people aren't willing to grasp at straws to find something to support amongst this inexcusable mess that so-called urbanist Cindy Rosenthal's term as mayor is responsible for. The encouraging signs that you're pointing to are essentially a new Mexican restaurant, a little more landscaping paid for by the city, and a new iconic entrance sign. There is nothing in here related to improving the design and site plan of this atrocious taxpayer-supported boondoggle.

My parents' neighborhood in SW OKC has an iconic entrance sign. Most neighborhoods do or at least attempt to. I am waiting to see a lifestyle center. Allow me to illustrate what I am waiting to see:
http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...tml#post650073

Or better yet, here's the example that the developers themselves used in order to get the TIF approved:
Utica Square - A Special Place

----------


## vaflyer

> It's not putting down the development for any reason that we can find, it's just that people aren't willing to grasp at straws to find something to support amongst this inexcusable mess that so-called urbanist Cindy Rosenthal's term as mayor is responsible for. The encouraging signs that you're pointing to are essentially a new Mexican restaurant, a little more landscaping paid for by the city, and a new iconic entrance sign. There is nothing in here related to improving the design and site plan of this atrocious taxpayer-supported boondoggle.
> 
> My parents' neighborhood in SW OKC has an iconic entrance sign. Most neighborhoods do or at least attempt to. I am waiting to see a lifestyle center. Allow me to illustrate what I am waiting to see:
> http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...tml#post650073
> 
> Or better yet, here's the example that the developers themselves used in order to get the TIF approved:
> Utica Square - A Special Place


That is a nice development in Westlake but I never remember hearing any plan to put residential above the retail in the UNP. I have heard of the possibility of multifamily housing going in the section north of Rock Creek but have never heard about any going on the south of Rock Creek. Thus, I do not understand why people are upset that there is no residential above the retail (so called urban design) when it was never in the plans from the beginning. As for Cindy Rosenthal, I would remind you that she voted against the UNP TIF when she was a member of city council.

----------


## Questor

I found the photo i was mentioning; the original pitch for UNP included references to this development in Phoenix:

1685d1337375493-whole-foods-main_image.jpg


It was in the Whole Foods thread. 

http://www.okctalk.com/food-restaura...tml#post538915

----------


## Geographer

> So far, UNP looks like a Norman version of Belle Isle Station. I'm holding out that it will improve, but to date, it's a complete disappointment. It's actually not as bad as Belle Isle. Belle Isle pisses me off every time I drive by - I'm just disappointed and somewhat indifferent to UNP. These renderings demonstrate better design than we've seen before, but I still cannot tell if this is anything more than a dressed-up big box center. Belle Isle and other OKC-area developments have killed all the faith I once had in developers and city planners.



You beef should definitely be with the developers, "economic development group", and the city council of Norman.  I'll say this on behalf of the planners....planners can only make recommendations on what is being built and don't actually have any control on what is developed...that's up to the developers and the city council.  It's unfortunate that planners, who go to school for this job (most of the time), aren't given more leeway on what should be developed...but I digress. 

Simply put, UNP started out as a great idea which as been bastardized and transformed into typical American strip mall development...fancied up by some landscaping and semi-interesting buildings.  Watch, in 20 years it's going to look like the Ed Noble Parkway strip center in Norman. It happens to every strip center eventually. It isn't a sustainable form of development because it's only serving one purpose...and not many purposes to increase the viability over a longer period of time.

----------


## Geographer

> That is a nice development in Westlake but I never remember hearing any plan to put residential above the retail in the UNP. I have heard of the possibility of multifamily housing going in the section north of Rock Creek but have never heard about any going on the south of Rock Creek. Thus, I do not understand why people are upset that there is no residential above the retail (so called urban design) when it was never in the plans from the beginning. As for Cindy Rosenthal, I would remind you that she voted against the UNP TIF when she was a member of city council.


Also, Utica Square is an unfortunate place.  It's a bunch of single story buildings in a pretty urban area...there's no reason those buildings shouldn't be 3-4 stories tall...keeping people in the area past 8:00 at night (unless you're stuffing your face at PF Chang at 9:00, which is possible! haha)

----------


## progressiveboy

Interesting new enhancements approved for University Park area! Sounds like they are finally going to raise the bar!




'Spectacular' is goal of Legacy Park enhancements approved by Norman City Council | News OK

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## dankrutka

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. No one is going to be blown away by UNP and its Discount Tire. This money would have been far better used helping to improve a historic urban area like Main Street. That's an area that actually makes Norman unique. If you want to raise the quality of life and tourism then invest in those parts of your city that make your city different and distinct.

----------


## ljbab728

> You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. No one is going to be blown away by UNP and its Discount Tire. This money would have been far better used helping to improve a historic urban area like Main Street. That's an area that actually makes Norman unique. If you want to raise the quality of life and tourism then invest in those parts of your city that make your city different and distinct.


Sounds like a nice idea but what would you have them do in downtown that could make a significant difference for that amount of money?  The downtown district has hardly been neglected.

----------


## dankrutka

> Sounds like a nice idea but what would you have them do in downtown that could make a significant difference for that amount of money?  The downtown district has hardly been neglected.


Maybe put together packages to help finance housing for that area. I'm not sure what that would cost. Maybe other times of incentives for businesses could be useful. I'm just not seeing this pond and fountains moving the needle much for UNP. I'm certainly not an expert on these topics though.

----------


## venture

> Maybe put together packages to help finance housing for that area. I'm not sure what that would cost. Maybe other times of incentives for businesses could be useful. I'm just not seeing this pond and fountains moving the needle much for UNP. I'm certainly not an expert on these topics though.


While I'm all for continued improvement in Downtown, they need to start doing some enhancements when it comes to UNP. ideally when the "lifestyle center" or whatever it is called these days starting to be built here soon, we'll see the quality of stores go up. They are finally in the position where they have a "destination" for people to go to shop - not saying it is like Michigan Ave or anything - so that will help with adding new businesses since they can see what foot traffic may already be available. 

I'm as disappointed as the next person when it comes to UNP so far, but we knew it was going to take some lower end stores to at least get people going to that area at first.

----------


## vaflyer

Mathis Brothers partners with Ashley Furniture for retail concept | News OK

The new Ashley furniture store will face the interstate behind Kohls. A building permit for this project ($3 million) was recently taken out with the City of Norman.

Here is a list of stores currently under construction in the UNP:

Crest
DSW 
HomeGoods
Michaels
Holiday Inn Express Hotel
Zoes Kitchen
Aspen Dental
Sprint

----------


## Questor

I'm really happy to see this, and to see the councilors' comments supporting these improvements. Recent developments such as the new Valliance Bank have been much more architecturally interesting. They still have a long ways to go but hopefully the developers "get it" now that this place needs to be something unique, something "spectacular" as the council put it.

----------


## kevinpate

I fear I've finally lost faith in the UNP area. When folks at the council are touting water cannons and fountain lights as the examples for something spectacular, what's the point of hoping for more?  Perhaps it is odd that a tire shop did not cause me to throw in a towel but the 'spectacular' fountain lights have? No matter. Except for a bank and an eatery or two, color me done.

----------


## Just the facts

> The new Ashley furniture store will face the interstate behind Kohls.


I wish this was a bad joke.




> The enhancements include adding seven water cannons, 21 spray nozzles, programming capabilities and colored LED lighting to the 14 water cannons already in the base bid for Legacy Park improvements.


...and I supposed people are going to see this as they drive by.

----------


## Geographer

I hate how awful of a project the UNP has turned into, but I also love it because it shows how people on the Norman city council have no idea what makes an area spectacular, if water cannons are our idea of spectacular then like kevinpate, color me done.

----------


## flintysooner

We all miss Mount Williams.

----------


## OklahomaNick

I have not yet commented on this thread, but this development is and is going to be top notch awesome. 
The developer really knows what they are doing, and they will do it right. This is GREAT for the city of Norman.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I have not yet commented on this thread, but this development is and is going to be top notch awesome. 
> The developer really knows what they are doing, and they will do it right. This is GREAT for the city of Norman.


You're wrong.

----------


## OklahomaNick

LOL message boards.. *sigh

We have an aggressive pessimist here!

----------


## Geographer

> I have not yet commented on this thread, but this development is and is going to be top notch awesome. 
> The developer really knows what they are doing, and they will do it right. This is GREAT for the city of Norman.


In terms of sales tax revenue? Sure, it's great. 

Creating something unique, spectacular, and different from any other strip center in Oklahoma? Not in the slightest.

Sure, the architecture of the buildings may "look" better than a typical strip center and a few water cannons may dazzle that up a bit, but it FUNCTIONS completely the same as a normal car-oriented shopping center. It's the same as anywhere else.

----------


## SOONER8693

> LOL message boards.. *sigh
> 
> We have an aggressive pessimist here!


I agree with you on this. All these people bitching and moaning about this, need to move on to the next cause. Or, maybe put up their own  money to show everyone how it should be done.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I have not yet commented on this thread, but this development is and is going to be top notch awesome. 
> The developer really knows what they are doing, and they will do it right. This is GREAT for the city of Norman.


I think it looks like it is going to be pretty cool as well. I guess when it's all said and done, I'll drive up and check it out, but it looks like to be a mini Frisco and if that still does not appeal to people, then I don't know what to say. Frisco is an awesome shopping district and this turns out to be 75% of what Frisco is, than this will be a great development to have. I guess we'll see though, how it turns out.

----------


## catch22

> I think it looks like it is going to be pretty cool as well. I guess when it's all said and done, *I'll drive up* and check it out, but it looks like to be a mini Frisco and if that still does not appeal to people, then I don't know what to say. Frisco is an awesome shopping district and this turns out to be 75% of what Frisco is, than this will be a great development to have. I guess we'll see though, how it turns out.


That's why this development is not spectacular. You will have to drive around it to see it. Too bad it won't invite you out of your car.

----------


## HangryHippo

> That's why this development is not spectacular. You will have to drive around it to see it. Too bad it won't invite you out of your car.


Exactly.  What's spectacular about another strip mall?

----------


## Just the facts

> In terms of sales tax revenue? Sure, it's great.


Not when you factor in the public cost of generating that tax revenue.

----------


## jedicurt

> I agree with you on this. All these people bitching and moaning about this, need to move on to the next cause. Or, maybe put up their own  money to show everyone how it should be done.


I would like to.. but seeing as how Norman keeps rejecting proposals for items that are more urban, i don't see how they would allow it.   Some people have tried to put up money to show how it should be done, and the Norman Council keeps proving that they don't even want to consider a different view. 

So what's your next suggestion of what we should do?  Or were you just making a post bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning?

----------


## SOONER8693

Or were you just making a post bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning?[/QUOTE]
Probably just this.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> That's why this development is not spectacular. You will have to drive around it to see it. Too bad it won't invite you out of your car.


When I said I'll drive up to it and I meant I'll be driving up from Edmond to see it. I still think this has the potential to be a good development. Not every great development has to be 100% walkable. I can walk around Frisco just fine. At any rate, it all comes down to what you're looking for in a new mall. I don't think this is going to be "just another strip mall", just due to the fact that it isn't walkable. I'd love a new pedestrian oriented lifestyle center in OKC, but this is cool. Most people will get out of their cars at the different buildings and just like Frisco where they have Stonebriar surrounded by a bunch of little stand alone buildings and you can drive up to them and they have 4-10 stores and when you're done, you get in your car and drive to the next one. I see no problem in this sort of development. It's all in personal preference I suppose. 

BTW, I don't prefer a non-walkable vs. walkable development, just saying that I don't think this is a horrid project.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Not when you factor in the public cost of generating that tax revenue.


What do you mean?

----------


## catch22

> What do you mean?


How many millions does it cost to build and maintain the roads for this development and the traffic increase on surrounding roads over the life of the shopping center. Compared to how much tax revenue it brings in.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> How many millions does it cost to build and maintain the roads for this development and the traffic increase on surrounding roads over the life of the shopping center. Compared to how much tax revenue it brings in.


Oh, wouldn't it be the same case for a walkable lifestyle center? People would still have to drive there. Anyhow, hopefully we can a light-rail soon with a good bus network to solve some of it.

----------


## Geographer

> Oh, wouldn't it be the same case for a walkable lifestyle center? People would still have to drive there. Anyhow, hopefully we can a light-rail soon with a good bus network to solve some of it.


where did the phrase "lifestyle center" come from? What exactly is a lifestyle center?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Not when you factor in the public cost of generating that tax revenue.


nope still great

----------


## Just the facts

Isn't UNP exempted from some kind of taxation (except for businesses that relocate from within Norman).

----------


## HangryHippo

> nope still great


You're wrong too.  

This isn't anywhere close to the great development we were sold by the Norman City Council.  The same city council that in recent articles continues to talk about how much of a letdown this project has been and why they felt compelled to pay for the enhancements to the service road fountain they're building.  Because the development isn't anywhere close to living up to the hype around the original billing.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> You're wrong too.  
> 
> This isn't anywhere close to the great development we were sold by the Norman City Council.  The same city council that in recent articles continues to talk about how much of a letdown this project has been and why they felt compelled to pay for the enhancements to the service road fountain they're building.  Because the development isn't anywhere close to living up to the hype around the original billing.


my comment was specifically about tax generation ..

----------


## HangryHippo

> my comment was specifically about tax generation ..


My apologies.  That wasn't clear to me from your reply.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> where did the phrase "lifestyle center" come from? *What exactly is a lifestyle center*?


According to Spartan, this is a lifestyle center. I don't know if this is true or not, I thought it looked more like a town center.

http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...stlake-oh.html

----------


## Just the facts

What portion of the sales tax does Norman get and how long will it take them to recoup the $521,000 dollars for the fountain improvements?

----------


## HangryHippo

> According to Spartan, this is a lifestyle center. I don't know if this is true or not, I thought it looked more like a town center.
> 
> http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...stlake-oh.html


But surely you see the difference between that and UNP?

----------


## gamecock

> But surely you see the difference between that and UNP?


I like that development quite a bit and would love to see something like it in Norman (or elsewhere in OKC), but that is not what people were told they would get. Also, nothing that has been built so far is even part of what was originally described as the "spectacular lifestyle center" . . . I think it is appropriate to have high expectations, and surely there have been missteps (some of which are attributable to the economy tanking right after this was announced), but some folks are now overstating how badly this has gone.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> But surely you see the difference between that and UNP?


Of course I do, and I would love to have a development like that in OKC. Is that what was originally touted by the Norman City Council??? If so, then I see the disappointment. . . if not, then from what I see in the renderings, it looks like a very nice suburban development. 

I think something like the Westlake development would be good for Downtown Edmond or Norman, possibly the new C2S area, or possibly Midtown, but if they would've put that in the UNP area, then that would be cool as well. I would just not expect something like that, esp. in OKC to be in an area like UNP, that is like putting it near 15th/I35 in Edmond. I think there are better places to place a development like that in OKC. Anyhow, I think it is fine for what it is. . .  I really do want a good lifestyle center like the Westlake development here in OKC, just saying,

----------


## Geographer

I laugh at the lifestyle center terminology and the whole development thought process.  When did we stop building cohesive neighborhoods and just piecemeal-ing "places" together?  But, if "lifestyle centers" can get back to neighborhood building (doesn't even have to be mixed use buildings, just decrease the large swaths of zones and intermingle residential/commercial better), then that's cool I suppose.

Too many subdivisions and developments...not enough neighborhoods.

----------


## venture

> According to Spartan, this is a lifestyle center. I don't know if this is true or not, I thought it looked more like a town center.
> 
> http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...stlake-oh.html


That's how most of the lifestyle centers look up North. 




> Of course I do, and I would love to have a development like that in OKC. Is that what was originally touted by the Norman City Council??? If so, then I see the disappointment. . . if not, then from what I see in the renderings, it looks like a very nice suburban development. 
> 
> I think something like the Westlake development would be good for Downtown Edmond or Norman, possibly the new C2S area, or possibly Midtown, but if they would've put that in the UNP area, then that would be cool as well. I would just not expect something like that, esp. in OKC to be in an area like UNP, that is like putting it near 15th/I35 in Edmond. I think there are better places to place a development like that in OKC. Anyhow, I think it is fine for what it is. . .  I really do want a good lifestyle center like the Westlake development here in OKC, just saying,


I believe the biggest program with the UNP development is the lifestyle center portion of it has been delayed significantly so far, that the other development is all that gets any attention. I want to say the original plans have always called for the existing development you see now to be there. The problem is the more upscale portion that was promised has been delayed and wasn't developed at the same time as the other fill in areas. 

Hopefully we'll see things changed some when the new City Council comes into power in a couple of weeks as Norman residents did a fair amount of house cleaning. Then it is just a matter of getting rid of the others that weren't up for re-election this last time around.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> That's how most of the lifestyle centers look up North. 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the biggest program with the UNP development is the lifestyle center portion of it has been delayed significantly so far, that the other development is all that gets any attention. I want to say the original plans have always called for the existing development you see now to be there. The problem is the more upscale portion that was promised has been delayed and wasn't developed at the same time as the other fill in areas. 
> 
> Hopefully we'll see things changed some when the new City Council comes into power in a couple of weeks as Norman residents did a fair amount of house cleaning. Then it is just a matter of getting rid of the others that weren't up for re-election this last time around.


But there is still plenty of room to build a life style or more walkable type of development?

----------


## venture

> But there is still plenty of room to build a life style or more walkable type of development?


The town/lifestyle center development is suppose to go in south of Embassy Suites, so there is room for that.

If they wanted to make it more walkable they could start to convert more of the parking lot space with additional buildings. I would have to say any future buildings need to be 2-3 stories to permit office/residential space above the stores. Then start implementing either parking garages or trams from Downtown Norman, Campus, and the Mall.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The town/lifestyle center development is suppose to go in south of Embassy Suites, so there is room for that.
> 
> If they wanted to make it more walkable they could start to convert more of the parking lot space with additional buildings. I would have to say any future buildings need to be 2-3 stories to permit office/residential space above the stores. Then start implementing either parking garages or trams from Downtown Norman, Campus, and the Mall.


I agree with everything you just said. I never understood why they build these massive parking lots that are horribly under utilized. It would seem to me like they could get more profit by adding more stores. You make money renting/leasing space for tenants, not parking, unless you charge to park, which would be outrageous!

----------


## Roger S

> I agree with everything you just said. I never understood why they build these massive parking lots that are horribly under utilized.


The city requires that we provide X amount of parking spaces for X amount of SF of the building. That's why we design these massive parking lots. If the choice was left solely to the developer you would probably see much less parking.

----------


## Geographer

I know this isn't directly related to the UNP, but what we are essentially talking about here is "Placemaking", so I thought I would share this link with yall.  It is from the IQC (Institute of Quality Communities) from the University of Oklahoma.  They recently held a Placemaking conference in Norman with some prominent people in the Placemaking-world.  Placemaking Conference | The Institute for Quality Communities  I would view the Retrofitting Suburbia and Livable Communities talks, which I think would be most applicable to the UNP development in Norman.  They're short, around 20 minutes a piece.

----------


## traxx

For those of you who haven't followed this since the beginning, it may be difficult to understand our disillusion and our disappointment. We were sold on something better but now have to hang our hats on fountains and trying to prove to people why our Discount Tire is better than the one in Denton or why our ***** Sporting Goods is better than yours.

Here's a thread from the early days of this project: http://www.okctalk.com/norman/4557-u...orth-park.html

The word upscale was thrown around a lot in the articles from that thread. And there was an even earlier thread than that (which I can't find) where ideas such as a large mall like Mall of America were being floated. The original idea of this project (whether it was a mall or lifestyle center or what) was for it to be something big and unique that would draw people to Norman. But why come to Norman for UNP as it is now? Our Vintage Stock store and our Pei Wei is no different than the ones in a thousand different towns.

Maybe when they finally build the lifestyle center or whatever we're calling it, I'll change my mind. I defended this project from the detractors for a long time but finally gave in and realized they were right about 3 or so years ago.


But if all you're going to do is put in a strip mall, at least do it right.

Strip mall done right.

----------


## HangryHippo

> For those of you who haven't followed this since the beginning, it may be difficult to understand our disillusion and our disappointment. We were sold on something better but now have to hang our hats on fountains and trying to prove to people why our Discount Tire is better than the one in Denton or why our ***** Sporting Goods is better than yours.
> 
> Here's a thread from the early days of this project: http://www.okctalk.com/norman/4557-u...orth-park.html
> 
> The word upscale was thrown around a lot in the articles from that thread. And there was an even earlier thread than that (which I can't find) where ideas such as a large mall like Mall of America were being floated. The original idea of this project (whether it was a mall or lifestyle center or what) was for it to be something big and unique that would draw people to Norman. But why come to Norman for UNP as it is now? Our Vintage Stock store and our Pei Wei is no different than the ones in a thousand different towns.
> 
> Maybe when they finally build the lifestyle center or whatever we're calling it, I'll change my mind. I defended this project from the detractors for a long time but finally gave in and realized they were right about 3 or so years ago.
> 
> 
> ...


Is that Spring Creek in Edmond?

----------


## bchris02

I wish there would be more developments in the metro like Spring Creek. That style of development is the standard in suburban Charlotte and even Little Rock and the suburban development there is far more aesthetically attractive than most of suburbia here.

----------


## Dubya61

Isn't there a mixed use strip mall on south Western?  Lightning Creek?

----------


## traxx

> Is that Spring Creek in Edmond?


Yes, and I know the whole 'Don't Edmond my Norman' thing, but it still makes a point.

----------


## Geographer

Time and time again, data shows that all encompassing village-type development far out gains strip center development in economic viability and profitability.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Yes, and I know the whole 'Don't Edmond my Norman' thing, but it still makes a point.


You'll get no argument from me.  It's actually not a bad development, and if there was anything about Edmond that Norman should have copied, it is Spring Creek.  Very nice strip mall and UNP would have done well to at least emulate that and not Westgate Marketplace.

----------


## Geographer

Spring Creek is a step in the right direction, but it's still got all of the attention onto the parking lot instead of facing towards the street or interacting with the street.

It looks a little better but I will argue that it functions almost the same as Westgate.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Spring Creek is a step in the right direction, but it's still got all of the attention onto the parking lot instead of facing towards the street or interacting with the street.
> 
> It looks a little better but I will argue that it functions almost the same as Westgate.


When you drive the two developments, there's a very clear distinction between the two.  And the portion of Spring Creek east of Bryant is actually far better than Westgate Marketplace.  But I do see what you're saying.  But Spring Creek would have been an improvement over UNP.

----------


## traxx

> You'll get no argument from me.  It's actually not a bad development, and if there was anything about Edmond that Norman should have copied, it is Spring Creek.  Very nice strip mall and UNP would have done well to at least emulate that and not Westgate Marketplace.


I've seen shopping areas like Spring Creek in several Dallas suburbs. It would be nice if that were the standard here for strip shopping areas. That could be the standard and then people could always build better than that and more unique than that if they so desired but set that as the standard.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Spring Creek is a step in the right direction, *but it's still got all of the attention onto the parking lot instead of facing towards the street or interacting with the street.*
> 
> It looks a little better but I will argue that it functions almost the same as Westgate.


Dude, this is SUBurban, the building do not need to be up to the street by any means. These are designed to drive your car into a parking and get out and THEN walk around away from the street and do what you want to do.

----------


## Geographer

> Dude, this is SUBurban, the building do not need to be up to the street by any means. These are designed to drive your car into a parking and get out and THEN walk around away from the street and do what you want to do.


You don't have to build SUBurban in suburban areas  :Wink:    (see Davidson, NC)....very much a "suburban town" on the fringe of Charlotte, NC...but some of the best development I've seen....it's still completely drive-able and everything. davidson.JPG

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> You don't have to build SUBurban in suburban areas    (see Davidson, NC)....very much a "suburban town" on the fringe of Charlotte, NC...but some of the best development I've seen....it's still completely drive-able and everything. davidson.JPG


no you don't. You're exactly right, I support building urban in Edmond's downtown, but that's it. As far as building completely urban in suburban, I'm not on board with that. It just defeats the purpose, if you know what I mean.

Btw, that is a cool development. I'm just not a fan of New Urbanism

----------


## bchris02

> You don't have to build SUBurban in suburban areas    (see Davidson, NC)....very much a "suburban town" on the fringe of Charlotte, NC...but some of the best development I've seen....it's still completely drive-able and everything. davidson.JPG


There are developments like that all over suburban Charlotte. Ballantyne, on Charlotte's south side, blows it away. My hope is something like that eventually goes up in the Gaillardia area. I personally think Gaillardia is OKC's best shot at an upscale hybrid suburban/new urbanist district like being built in many other cities. Imagine having a centerpiece to Gaillardia with upscale restaurants and bars, upscale shopping, a movie theater, with 3-4 stories of housing above. It would be great for yuppies with families who want a pseudo-urban experience but with the benefit of the suburbs and good schools. If Charlotte can support several such districts, OKC should be able to support at least one. OKC would likely already have that kind of thing if it wasn't for the crash of 2008.

----------


## bchris02

> Dude, this is SUBurban, the building do not need to be up to the street by any means. These are designed to drive your car into a parking and get out and THEN walk around away from the street and do what you want to do.


Agreed. Spring Creek is great the way it is. In fact when strip malls are built in the future, I wish that would be the model they would use. That is the standard in most other cities.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> There are developments like that all over suburban Charlotte. Ballantyne, on Charlotte's south side, blows it away. My hope is something like that eventually goes up in the Gaillardia area. I personally think Gaillardia is OKC's best shot at an upscale hybrid suburban/new urbanist district like being built in many other cities. Imagine having a centerpiece to Gaillardia with upscale restaurants and bars, upscale shopping, a movie theater, with 3-4 stories of housing above. It would be great for yuppies with families who want a pseudo-urban experience but with the benefit of the suburbs and good schools. If Charlotte can support several such districts, OKC should be able to support at least one. OKC would likely already have that kind of thing if it wasn't for the crash of 2008.


something like The legacy development off of Preston rd. in Dallas would be awesome.

----------


## zachj7

Baby steps, baby steps guys. There was no way a "mall of america" was going to be in Norman. Puhleezzz. I have a really hard time understanding why there has to be like 4 big mattress places all on one block. Whoever approves or plans these things is beyond me. The reasoning is bizarre.

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## venture

> Baby steps, baby steps guys. There was no way a "mall of america" was going to be in Norman. Puhleezzz. I have a really hard time understanding why there has to be like 4 big mattress places all on one block. Whoever approves or plans these things is beyond me. The reasoning is bizarre.


You think there is someone approving things and has a master plan. That's adorable.  

Just kidding.  :Wink:

----------


## zachj7

> You think there is someone approving things and has a master plan. That's adorable.  
> 
> Just kidding.


Haha, I wish!

Well someone must have thought that having a ton of mattress stores on one block was a good idea.

----------


## venture

> Haha, I wish!
> 
> Well someone must have thought that having a ton of mattress stores on one block was a good idea.


Or a gazillion grocery stores all in a compacted area.

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## Questor

Or one Asian restaurant literally in the parking lot of another.

----------


## kevinpate

These recent posts finally flipped the light switch for me.  It's the only explanation really.  The peeps who decide what goes where in UNP probably grew up with relatives who took them out every weekend to window shop on the _Magnificent Mile of Cars_ ... waves and waves of cars jammed together and different versions of the same product sold side by side as far as their young eyes could see.  When such a concept is hardwired into the brain, perhaps UNP was simply inevitable.

----------


## Just the facts

...yet people flock to UNP in droves.  Is it because they like it or because Norman doesn't offer a different shopping choice?

BTW - do they not have a website with a map and store directory?

----------


## kevinpate

Couldn't say JTF.  I only visit two places in UNP with any frequency at all, my bank and Qdoba. We've been into or grabbed takeout from some of the other eateries a time or two. I also use the road through UNP to go up to Tecumseh sometimes. The times I go through I see some traffic and cars in the p-lots, but I don't see mass numbers of folk.

----------


## Geographer

> ...yet people flock to UNP in droves.  Is it because they like it or because Norman doesn't offer a different shopping choice?
> 
> BTW - do they not have a website with a map and store directory?


People flock there because it's new...and Target is there as well.

----------


## SOONER8693

> Couldn't say JTF.  I only visit two places in UNP with any frequency at all, my bank and Qdoba. We've been into or grabbed takeout from some of the other eateries a time or two. I also use the road through UNP to go up to Tecumseh sometimes. The times I go through I see some traffic and cars in the p-lots, but I don't see mass numbers of folk.


I cut through on that road to get to Tecumseh quite frequently, and UNP is always jammed up with cars, traffic, and people. People are going there for something, despite the complaining of many on this board.

----------


## Just the facts

I just wonder how much different things would have been if Norman had spent the $30 million on downtown instead and didn't do the TIF district.  UNP was billed as this great generator of sales taxes but 60% of those sales taxes have to be spent on UNP.

OUDaily.com | Norman sells new ?lifestyles?

Anyhow, UNP exists so really no point it discussing it.

----------


## Edgar

It was billled as "destination retail"- not sure if a Dress Barn counts. Seems to me mostly redundant retail. Shop eat drink party local!! It's the best way to support the community.

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## Geographer

> I just wonder how much different things would have been if Norman had spent the $30 million on downtown instead and didn't do the TIF district.  UNP was billed as this great generator of sales taxes but 60% of those sales taxes have to be spent on UNP.
> 
> OUDaily.com | Norman sells new ?lifestyles?
> 
> Anyhow, UNP exists so really no point it discussing it.


Totally agree. Instead of investing money into creating something unique for Norman (you can still have these kinds of shops that are found in UNP in a "downtown" setting...see Southlake, Texas)....we've got UNP which is just a regular, normal, non-unique shopping center with redundant retail. It's "great" for sales tax, sure...but nothing to boast about.

----------


## gamecock

> Totally agree. Instead of investing money into creating something unique for Norman (you can still have these kinds of shops that are found in UNP in a "downtown" setting...see Southlake, Texas)....we've got UNP which is just a regular, normal, non-unique shopping center with redundant retail. It's "great" for sales tax, sure...but nothing to boast about.


This has been said before, but the part of UNP that was supposed to be "unique" still has not been built yet. The Target, Pei Wei, Kohl's, Academy, all of that development was intended to come first and generate traffic. It really is the Legacy Park and the Town Center area that will make or break this development, so in spite of some missteps, it's possible that this could still work out fine. BTW, people shop in UNP because it is convenient and there are stores and restaurants that people like (Super Target, Qdoba, Academy, etc.).

----------


## Geographer

> This has been said before, but the part of UNP that was supposed to be "unique" still has not been built yet. The Target, Pei Wei, Kohl's, Academy, all of that development was intended to come first and generate traffic. It really is the Legacy Park and the Town Center area that will make or break this development, so in spite of some missteps, it's possible that this could still work out fine. BTW, people shop in UNP because it is convenient and there are stores and restaurants that people like (Super Target, Qdoba, Academy, etc.).



another problem with the tax structure :P   ....concerned with gettin that sales tax revenue above all else!

----------


## venture

> another problem with the tax structure :P   ....concerned with gettin that sales tax revenue above all else!


Would you rather we have local income taxes like many other states? Or extremely high property taxes?

----------


## Geographer

> Would you rather we have local income taxes like many other states? Or extremely high property taxes?


I'd rather have property taxes.

Sales tax is very regressive, only covers goods and not necessarily services (selling law service, etc.).  I'd rather have my city chiefly concerned with raising the city's property values because that benefits directly the city and its citizens.  Sales tax creates an environment where, cities are trying to bring in any kind of business, fast food establishment, and whatever else to bring in the passer-by dollars.

That's just my opinion though! Everyone's entitled.

----------


## Just the facts

> Would you rather we have local income taxes like many other states? Or extremely high property taxes?


I think it was a comment more about focusing efforts nearly 100% on the tax collection side and not considering if the development is self-supporting on the tax spending side.  In other words, does it cost more tax money to support UNP than if all the stores in UNP were located where existing infrastructure was already located (and is still located).

----------


## venture

> I'd rather have property taxes.
> 
> Sales tax is very regressive, only covers goods and not necessarily services (selling law service, etc.). I'd rather have my city chiefly concerned with raising the city's property values because that benefits directly the city and its citizens. Sales tax creates an environment where, cities are trying to bring in any kind of business, fast food establishment, and whatever else to bring in the passer-by dollars.
> 
> That's just my opinion though! Everyone's entitled.


Okay I can understand that. So then let me ask you, do you currently own and pay property taxes? As a property owner I would rather see a sales tax in place to raise revenues and leave my property taxes alone. 




> I think it was a comment more about focusing efforts nearly 100% on the tax collection side and not considering if the development is self-supporting on the tax spending side.  In other words, does it cost more tax money to support UNP than if all the stores in UNP were located where existing infrastructure was already located (and is still located).


If that is what they meant, then I would fully agree with that. I would much rather have seen the development all go into Downtown Norman. Of course I also wonder what push back they would have received in the demolition of some of the closer neighborhoods to make room for structures like Target, Embassy Suites, and also building more structures to house the town center style stores. Of course nothing says that it all had to go into Downtown, since I'm sure Embassy would rather be off the interstate and Target would have likely just upgraded their old location on Main.

----------


## Geographer

> Okay I can understand that. So then let me ask you, do you currently own and pay property taxes? As a property owner I would rather see a sales tax in place to raise revenues and leave my property taxes alone.


Nope, I currently don't own property and don't pay property taxes.  It wouldn't change my opinion on the tax structure though.

I just feel like it's better served to the citizens of the community if the city is focused on creating better valued property in order to receive funds than doing its hardest to bring in as much retail stores as possible, which we know (most of the time) creates ugly commercial development and streetscapes and doesn't necessarily enhance the livability of a city.

EDIT: We have it backwards here.  We're focused on getting sales tax dollars (which again, creates a lot of ugly environment) before making the city and streets an attractive place for people.  We ugly up one part of the city to fund other things down the road.  I'd rather "pretty" up the city first, which will create places where businesses and people WANT to be.  (See University Place, WA....re-did a street-scape and it's created tons of development along a corridor.  They focused on beautifying a portion of the city first and then it brought in great development.  The street's name is Bridgeport Way.)

But again, it's all preference!  :Smile:

----------


## venture

Well then you are looking at trying to raise money to "pretty up" parts of the city which is either going to be funded through raising sales or property taxes. Perhaps when you get to that that position where you actually own property and send that nice healthy check to the county each December (unless it's bundled with your mortgage of course), then your viewpoint may be a bit different.

I see where you are coming from that better looking property = higher values = higher property taxes paid in. However, if you are wanting all these other items and want to exchange the income for funding them...then you are asking to raise property tax amounts without increasing the values of the properties themselves. 

You are right it is all preference, but we have to look at the impacts higher property taxes will also have for businesses and people who are looking to locate here. While it might seem okay to trade out higher sales for property taxes, if you push people away from locating in your city then you aren't going to get anywhere. If they get too high in Norman, nothing is stopping people from setting up in areas that are part of Moore or OKC even though they essentially could be Norman.

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## Geographer

> Well then you are looking at trying to raise money to "pretty up" parts of the city which is either going to be funded through raising sales or property taxes. Perhaps when you get to that that position where you actually own property and send that nice healthy check to the county each December (unless it's bundled with your mortgage of course), then your viewpoint may be a bit different.
> 
> I see where you are coming from that better looking property = higher values = higher property taxes paid in. However, if you are wanting all these other items and want to exchange the income for funding them...then you are asking to raise property tax amounts without increasing the values of the properties themselves. 
> 
> You are right it is all preference, but we have to look at the impacts higher property taxes will also have for businesses and people who are looking to locate here. While it might seem okay to trade out higher sales for property taxes, if you push people away from locating in your city then you aren't going to get anywhere. If they get too high in Norman, nothing is stopping people from setting up in areas that are part of Moore or OKC even though they essentially could be Norman.



I will disagree with you, so let's agree to disagree  :Smile:

----------


## venture

> I will disagree with you, so let's agree to disagree


Sounds good. I use to have similar thoughts as you did, but as you get older and more life experiences stack up things change. I'm going to assume I have at least 10 years on you, so you'll have a lot to learn still.  :Smile:

----------


## Geographer

> Sounds good. I use to have similar thoughts as you did, but as you get older and more life experiences stack up things change. I'm going to assume I have at least 10 years on you, so you'll have a lot to learn still.


Haha. I will say this though...this opinion is definitely not only my own.  I have friends/family who are homeowners that share the same sentiments as I do.

----------


## venture

> Haha. I will say this though...this opinion is definitely not only my own.  I have friends/family who are homeowners that share the same sentiments as I do.


It's different for everyone I suppose. We are more in a tax discussion now than UNP, so I'll make this my last comment on the subject. I would much rather see us in a system where we just have a flat sales tax on everything (no property or income taxes) and let everyone decide how they want to spend their money. This then doesn't penalize home and property owners who prefer to get something for our money (versus renting and throwing it away).

----------


## Buffalo Bill

> This then doesn't penalize home and property owners who prefer to get something for our money (versus renting and throwing it away).


Renters pay property taxes, though indirectly.

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## kevinpate

here's a thought on an upside to sale taxes, especially if you get a lot of here, spend and then gone people (OKC in general, Norman via OU, etc.) and many, others places:
I believe it is estimated about 1/3 of MAPs3 funds, as well as prior MAPs programs, came from outside non-OKC folk. Let that sink in a moment. Roughly 259 million of the 777 million of MAPs3 come from outside OKC. So, in other words, one could pretend the visitors are covering the convention center costs and OKC folks are covering the rest of MAPs3.  

As for renters and property taxes, yeah, renters pay. Same as they pay for the water in rentals that 'include' free water.

Norman kicks a nice kick in the balance seat numerous weekends a year via sales taxes and hotel taxes, and yeah, buddy, y'all come see us more often if ya wanta.

I wouldn't want to see a big tick upward in sales taxes, but there is room for some growth.

----------


## venture

> Renters pay property taxes, though indirectly.


Of course...but they aren't nearly as exposed to the full front as the property owner. Of course this also goes back to my feeling that renting is throwing money away as you are getting nothing for your dollar.

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## Geographer

lets get back to UNP  :Smile:

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## G.Walker

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK

So I guess its safe to say the advanced manufacturing center and planned office park are dead or on hold again, lol. This is crazy, UNP wil be nothing but a strip mall destination. They also lost the big PETCO deal a few years ago. The City of Norman and the Norman Economic Development Coalition need to get their act together. I mean when was the last time Norman attracted a big time employer?

----------


## Geographer

> Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK
> 
> So I guess its safe to say the advanced manufacturing center and planned office park are dead or on hold again, lol. This is crazy, UNP wil be nothing but a strip mall destination. They also lost the big PETCO deal a few years ago. The City of Norman and the Norman Economic Development Coalition need to get their act together. I mean when was the last time Norman attracted a big time employer?


LOL. That article makes me laugh.  "there's nothing like it in Oklahoma".

----------


## Just the facts

> Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK
> 
> So I guess its safe to say the advanced manufacturing center and planned office park are dead or on hold again, lol. This is crazy, UNP wil be nothing but a strip mall destination. They also lost the big PETCO deal a few years ago. The City of Norman and the Norman Economic Development Coalition need to get their act together. I mean when was the last time Norman attracted a big time employer?


That is what happens when you a pitch a life-style center location to a company and then they see that your life-style center is a strip shopping center - they question what kind of life-style you are living.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK
> 
> So I guess its safe to say the advanced manufacturing center and planned office park are dead or on hold again, lol. This is crazy, UNP wil be nothing but a strip mall destination. They also lost the big PETCO deal a few years ago. The City of Norman and the Norman Economic Development Coalition need to get their act together. I mean when was the last time Norman attracted a big time employer?



or not 

"An aerospace company will be the first occupant of the manufacturing center, Wood said, bringing 400 new jobs to Norman. An official announcement is expected by the end of October."

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## Geographer

> or not 
> 
> "An aerospace company will be the first occupant of the manufacturing center, Wood said, bringing 400 new jobs to Norman. An official announcement is expected by the end of October."


If you notice, that article was written September 2012...the announcement was supposed to happen October 2012.

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## G.Walker

My point exactly, lol.

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## BoulderSooner

lol ... joke is on me

----------


## Rover

> That is what happens when you a pitch a life-style center location to a company and then they see that your life-style center is a strip shopping center - they question what kind of life-style you are living.


Yes, because we know that is how important business decisions are made by responsible companies....how close are the buildings to the street and is it parallel parking...  LOL.   

AND, we all know that Norman is such an awful place to live.  

So, I guess if GE decides to locate in Norman it is BECAUSE of the strip center life style there.

----------


## Just the facts

Companies have all kinds of criteria but most of them don't look favorable on the bait and switch tactic.  Norman sells the life-style center location but doesn't have a life-style center.  So yes, when they say they have a great location in a new life-style center with fountains, and parks, and walkability, and unique architecture, etc... and then the company reps actually see that location and it is an arterial street fronted by giant parking lots with no housing on-site you can bet that creates a bad impression.

----------


## G.Walker

Here is a more recent article, those renderings for the office park are at least 7 years old, if I see them again, I am going to puke! 

okcBIZ: News: Development: Norman

----------


## Just the facts

> Here is a more recent article, those renderings for the office park are at least 7 years old, if I see them again, I am going to puke! 
> 
> okcBIZ: News: Development: Norman


Even better - instead of life-style center they propose a traditional office park.

----------


## Rover

> Companies have all kinds of criteria but most of them don't look favorable on the bait and switch tactic.  Norman sells the life-style center location but doesn't have a life-style center.  So yes, when they say they have a great location in a new life-style center with fountains, and parks, and walkability, and unique architecture, etc... and then the company reps actually see that location and it is an arterial street fronted by giant parking lots with no housing on-site you can bet that creates a bad impression.


Yes, of course.  They can't use Google Earth or Street View or any of those new fangled things.  They just show up and are surprised.  No way would they want their company near a slum like UNP.  Having Academy Sports nearby with a parking lot ruined the deal.

   I think you have lost all objective perspective.

Transportation/Logistics, proximity to educated work force, financial incentives, costs of operations, proximity to intellectual resources, etc., etc.  THESE are REAL factors, not some new urbanist manifesto.  

If you want to discuss how UNP has violated the new urbanist creed, great.  But ascribing all social and economic ills to non conforming shopping areas is more than a stretch.

----------


## Just the facts

Say want you Rover - but still no large companies at UNP despite multiple companies coming to take a look.  Maybe you can explain what the problem is.  After all, Norman is great place to live, good schools, OU near by, but ..... still no companies.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Say want you Rover - but still no large companies at UNP despite multiple companies coming to take a look.  Maybe you can explain what the problem is.  After all, Norman is great place to live, good schools, OU near by, but ..... still no companies.


Yep. Maybe rover can tell us what happened to the aerospace company or why any of the various other companies that look around decide on other sites?

----------


## Questor

STILL no website for UNP.  It's 2013. Why are Oklahoma businesses so technologically impaired???

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## zachj7

Because UNP is crap? Looks like any normal strip mall with an abnormal amount of mattress stores. What's unique?

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## G.Walker

> STILL no website for UNP.  It's 2013. Why are Oklahoma businesses so technologically impaired???


Because you still have an older generation running things at the City and NEDC. Until they get some young proffessionals, with a new perspective, and out-of-the-box way of thinking, it will continue to be the same.

----------


## Just the facts

Just for comparison - here is the web site for our life-style center here in Jax.

St. Johns Town Center? Mobile Website - Jacksonville, FL 32246-7429 - Simon Malls

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## venture

> Because you still have an older generation running things at the City and NEDC. Until they get some young proffessionals, with a new perspective, and out-of-the-box way of thinking, it will continue to be the same.


Well we got half of council replaced this last go around, time to get the other half done next year. Granted Lynn Miller isn't exactly young, but thankfully the redneck teabagger is gone.

----------


## kevinpate

> Because you still have an older generation running things at the City and NEDC. ...


Surely there is some other more likely reason. Norman and NEDC have each had a web presence for a number of years.  Not saying the sites are exceptional or anything, but the two sites have been around a spell.

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## venture

> Even better - instead of life-style center they propose a traditional office park.


Technically the plan is to have the office park north of Embassy Suites I believe with hangar access to the airport. Then the lifestyle center is suppose to be across 24th. Who knows though. NEDC and the Norman Chamber just love blowing smoke to serve their own personal agendas. 




> Yep. Maybe rover can tell us what happened to the aerospace company or why any of the various other companies that look around decide on other sites?


Aerospace company = smoke.  :Smile:

----------


## traxx

> Well we got half of council replaced this last go around, time to get the other half done next year. Granted Lynn Miller isn't exactly young, *but thankfully the redneck teabagger is gone*.


Dude, get over yourself. I'm not sure who you're talking about but you people with your whining. That's why I left this place for years. Looks like I may need to leave for good. I doubt someone would be allowed to say that liberal, pansy, tree huggers are an embarrassment without some sort of repisal on these boards.

You liberals with your Oklahoma has to change has to be more progressive (read liberal), has to get rid of the conservative thinking etc. I know you all want OKC to be a carbon copy of a place like Seattle but what's the purpose? Instead of making a carbon copy, just go live in the original. You guys and your talk of tolerance is laughable because you can't seem to tolerate anyone with a differing view. You won't shop at Wal Mart of Hobby Lobby because of their conservative nature. I see these posts in these threads on here. It seems there's been more of these posts just lately. The hatred is palpable. There are cities in this country with a decidedly liberal lean. There should be room in this country for cities with a conservative lean. You don't need to change it, you don't need to fix, it because it's not broken.

If someone doesn't join in on the liberal circle jerk on these boards then they're unwelcome.

----------


## Geographer

> Dude, get over yourself. I'm not sure who you're talking about but you people with your whining. That's why I left this place for years. Looks like I may need to leave for good. I doubt someone would be allowed to say that liberal, pansy, tree huggers are an embarrassment without some sort of repisal on these boards.
> 
> You liberals with your Oklahoma has to change has to be more progressive (read liberal), has to get rid of the conservative thinking etc. I know you all want OKC to be a carbon copy of a place like Seattle but what's the purpose? Instead of making a carbon copy, just go live in the original. You guys and your talk of tolerance is laughable because you can't seem to tolerate anyone with a differing view. You won't shop at Wal Mart of Hobby Lobby because of their conservative nature. I see these posts in these threads on here. It seems there's been more of these posts just lately. The hatred is palpable. There are cities in this country with a decidedly liberal lean. There should be room in this country for cities with a conservative lean. You don't need to change it, you don't need to fix, it because it's not broken.
> 
> If someone doesn't join in on the liberal circle jerk on these boards then they're unwelcome.



Being smart with what you build so that you don't have to rebuild it again doesn't all sound liberal to me, in fact that sounds pretty conservative if you want to put labels on it.

I don't agree with the teabagger statement, per se...however I am in favor of building something that lasts and doesn't take up as much space and utilizes the space to its best use...since I want to be conservative with how much land we are using to construct places like UNP.

I shop at Wal-Mart and Hobby Lobby....and I also advocate smart growth and wise-use of our land..and I don't believe UNP (the way that it is currently constructed) is either of those things.

----------


## venture

> *Dude, get over yourself. I'm not sure who you're talking about but you people with your whining. That's why I left this place for years. Looks like I may need to leave for good. I doubt someone would be allowed to say that liberal, pansy, tree huggers are an embarrassment without some sort of repisal on these boards.*
> 
> You liberals with your Oklahoma has to change has to be more progressive (read liberal), has to get rid of the conservative thinking etc. I know you all want OKC to be a carbon copy of a place like Seattle but what's the purpose? Instead of making a carbon copy, just go live in the original. You guys and your talk of tolerance is laughable because you can't seem to tolerate anyone with a differing view. You won't shop at Wal Mart of Hobby Lobby because of their conservative nature. I see these posts in these threads on here. It seems there's been more of these posts just lately. The hatred is palpable. There are cities in this country with a decidedly liberal lean. There should be room in this country for cities with a conservative lean. You don't need to change it, you don't need to fix, it because it's not broken.
> 
> If someone doesn't join in on the liberal circle jerk on these boards then they're unwelcome.


Apparently you have pretty rose colored glasses. There is a fair amount of back and forth on these boards, and please don't lump me in with the traditional "liberal" definition. My positions are pretty clear. However, if you had been exposed to the follies of Dave Spaulding for the last couple of years, you would be rejoicing to see him kicked out of City Council after one term. He brought an agenda that completely clashed with moving Norman forward and continued to sidetrack discussions with a Tea Party agenda that had no place in local politics. We also need to keep in mind that Norman is a fairly moderate city when compared to the rest of the state. Someone coming in with such divisive viewpoints and agendas wasn't helping anyone. 

Perhaps educate yourself on the nature of what is (and was) going in Norman before making assumptions and looking like a fool. Do people want Norman to be the next Seattle? Hardly. I love the balance of an academic college town and a very laid back community. However, we also need to make sure we plan properly going forward to be sure we don't turn into "just another suburb". We are getting close, but hopefully fresh blood on council will help avoid continuing down the path.

----------


## Just the facts

> ....continued to sidetrack discussions with a Tea Party agenda that had no place in local politics.


That is because some of my fellow tea-party travelers are misguided; like they haven't thought their position completely.  Here is a quick example to prove the point.  The right-wing says the economy isn't doing great because all Obama has done is create part-time low wage jobs.  Then the liberals in D.C. essentially ban Wal-Mart because they don't pay enough money, consider 27 hours a week full-time, and encourage their employees to go on public assistance to make up the deficiency with their wages.  But guess who comes to the defense of Wal-Mart - you guessed it - the right-wing tea-party types.

----------


## MikeLucky

All the conversation and hand-wringing about this project aside...  having the Embassy Suites and Conference Center go up early in the process was what killed this whole thing.  It was the equivalent of paying a contractor in advance for building a house.  Certain powers-that-be wanted this project to go up so that they could get the conference center built.  Once that was done, it was left up to the developer and the city council to keep things rolling on their own... obviously that hasn't worked out so well.

Just my assessment of it all.  Having said that, I'm not nearly as upset about UNP as some of y'all.  I am there quite frequently and find that the stores and restaurants that are there are pretty convenient and useful for me.  But, I wouldn't be upset at something nicer going in there, for sure.

----------


## BG918

UNP is a nice strip center, and fairly convenient for central and west Norman.  I've said it before but any kind of faux-urban lifestyle center should not be part of this development, and so far hasn't been.  That should be in a real urban area like Campus Corner or anchoring the west end of downtown along Main as a redevelopment of the strip malls there.  Leave UNP as a place for big box stores and a collection of chain restaurants, and hopefully eventually more office space in the northern parts.  It is in a good location to create a new office cluster for the entire south OKC metro along I-35 between Rock Creek and Tecumseh.

----------


## traxx

> Apparently you have pretty rose colored glasses. There is a fair amount of back and forth on these boards, and please don't lump me in with the traditional "liberal" definition. My positions are pretty clear. However, if you had been exposed to the follies of Dave Spaulding for the last couple of years, you would be rejoicing to see him kicked out of City Council after one term. He brought an agenda that completely clashed with moving Norman forward and continued to sidetrack discussions with a Tea Party agenda that had no place in local politics. We also need to keep in mind that Norman is a fairly moderate city when compared to the rest of the state. Someone coming in with such divisive viewpoints and agendas wasn't helping anyone. 
> 
> Perhaps educate yourself on the nature of what is (and was) going in Norman before making assumptions and looking like a fool. Do people want Norman to be the next Seattle? Hardly. I love the balance of an academic college town and a very laid back community. However, we also need to make sure we plan properly going forward to be sure we don't turn into "just another suburb". We are getting close, but hopefully fresh blood on council will help avoid continuing down the path.


I don't mean to threadjack this thread so this will be the last I say about it.

What I was saying wasn't about what was going on in Norman. It was about that some people on here seem to believe that if someone doesn't agree with their point of view then that person must be some redneck, uneducated, backwoods, teabagger. Which I'm guessing teabagger is your "clever" little name for tea party people and not literally a sexual term.

I'm not a teaparty member but I've obviously got differing views from some of you on here. But I try to avoid getting into political or socio-political discussions on here. I stay off of the politics forum on here. I try to be respectful of other people's views and opinions on here. 

And it's not just you. Don't think that this is personal, it's not.

----------


## Just the facts

> UNP is a nice strip center, and fairly convenient for central and west Norman.  I've said it before but any kind of faux-urban lifestyle center should not be part of this development, and so far hasn't been.


I think that is what we are all saying.  The problem is that it WAS sold a new urbanism lifestyle center and is still presented that way - and it isn't one.  I wonder if it was built as it was billed if it would be full of office space already.

----------


## macfoucin

I seen a sign up behind Kohls/Dollar Tree today for an Ashley Home Store coming soon.

----------


## pw405

That's good news, I really like some of their furniture and hopefully it will be a better price than Mathis Bros. Cut out the middle man!

----------


## rcjunkie

> That's good news, I really like some of their furniture and hopefully it will be a better price than Mathis Bros. Cut out the middle man!


Its being built by/owned by, Mathis Brothers

----------


## Easy180

> Its being built by/owned by, Mathis Brothers


OMG I hope Rit makes an appearance

----------


## pw405

> Its being built by/owned by, Mathis Brothers


Well, Fiddlesticks.  Mathis does have a reasonable price to quality ratio though.

----------


## zachj7

There's a dollar tree up there? Wow, real upscale.

----------


## Stan Silliman

> There's a dollar tree up there? Wow, real upscale.


I love Dollar Tree. You can buy good merchandise for a measly dollar. 

I have their stock. Dollar Tree is the greatest store in the entire world. 
Any strip center is super lucky to have a Dollar Tree as a tenant.

----------


## Geographer

> I love Dollar Tree. You can buy good merchandise for a measly dollar. 
> 
> I have their stock. Dollar Tree is the greatest store in the entire world. 
> Any strip center is super lucky to have a Dollar Tree as a tenant.



I can't even begin to describe how I feel haha.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> I love Dollar Tree. You can buy good merchandise for a measly dollar. 
> 
> I have their stock. Dollar Tree is the greatest store in the entire world. 
> Any strip center is super lucky to have a Dollar Tree as a tenant.


While DT may or may not be the greatest store in the world, this idea of greatness is not what the planners told the public would be going in there.

----------


## gamecock

> While DT may or may not be the greatest store in the world, this idea of greatness is not what the planners told the public would be going in there.


I am not a fan of Dollar Tree and would rather have more upscale options, but the planners DID say that there would be stores like that on THAT side of the road. The upscale part is supposed to be across the street between Crest and the Embassy Suites. This development is very misunderstood.

----------


## venture

> I am not a fan of Dollar Tree and would rather have more upscale options, but the planners DID say that there would be stores like that on THAT side of the road. The upscale part is supposed to be across the street between Crest and the Embassy Suites. This development is very misunderstood.


I have a sliver of hope left that with them establishing the traffic to that area now, and starting to get more fill in...that it will have the town center/lifestyle center developed on the east side of 24th do better.

----------


## Geographer

> I have a sliver of hope left that with them establishing the traffic to that area now, and starting to get more fill in...*that it will have the town center/lifestyle center developed on the east side of 24th do better*.


sigh.

----------


## venture

> sigh.


I know i know. However, I've seen lifestyle centers pop up everywhere up north and many fail miserably because there is no additional development around them. At least now there is a significant amount of people in that area every day which should help drive more people to the area to make a higher end store do well.

----------


## Stan Silliman

> I am not a fan of Dollar Tree and would rather have more upscale options, but the planners DID say that there would be stores like that on THAT side of the road. The upscale part is supposed to be across the street between Crest and the Embassy Suites. This development is very misunderstood.


There are 7000 Dollar Tree stores around the country including many in "Upscale" malls. 
There's a Dollar Tree in the Mall of America, at North Park Mall in Dallas and in many fine centers.
You'll find some Dollar Trees next to Nordstrom's, next to Neiman's. 

It is one of the more well run businesses in retailing.
And I'm not just saying this because I've built Dollar Tree's in Connecticut, Long Island, Seattle, Portland, Florida, 
and in 30 other spots across the country. 

The Dollar Tree brings traffic. Even the princesses and Lambo drivers drop in to fill their Gucci's they've just bought up the road.

----------


## ChargerAg

I have some doubt that there is a nordstrom next to a dollar tree.

----------


## MWCGuy

You have to keep in mind that this was developed during the real estate crash. Many discount retailers are finding themselves welcome in places they were once snubbed. They have the money to expand while others don't have money to expand or have the money and have chosen to invest in their exiting locations.

----------


## Just the facts

> I have some doubt that there is a nordstrom next to a dollar tree.


Define 'next to'  Here in Jax our new Nordstrom is in the same shopping center as Dollar Tree.  Not right next door to it but close enough you can walk from one to the other.

----------


## Geographer

The council's agenda for last Tuesday included the UNP Final Site Development Plan. It's, of course, terrible design.

Plan.JPG

Isn't this a lovely life-style center design?  :Smile:

----------


## HangryHippo

> The council's agenda for last Tuesday included the UNP Final Site Development Plan. It's, of course, terrible design.
> 
> Plan.JPG
> 
> Isn't this a lovely life-style center design?


I thought the lifestyle center was supposed to be south of Embassy Suites?  Am I mistaken?

Also, this whole thing has been a disappointment.  I can't believe this is what we ended up with.  Could have at least added some apartments or something.

----------


## venture

> I thought the lifestyle center was supposed to be south of Embassy Suites?  Am I mistaken?
> 
> Also, this whole thing has been a disappointment.  I can't believe this is what we ended up with.  Could have at least added some apartments or something.


Yeah I'm pretty sure the Lifestyle center is further SEW than this map. It seems to just be the build out plan for the final patch to the NW section. I think at this point it is expected all highway adjacent development is going to be big box.

----------


## Geographer

It just looks like a nightmare to navigate with a car, much less with your feet!!

----------


## Questor

If I'm not mistaken that is south of rock creek and west of 24th. In theory the lifestyle portion is supposed to start NE of there.  And I agree, crappy layout.

----------


## venture

> If I'm not mistaken that is south of rock creek and west of 24th. In theory the lifestyle portion is supposed to start NE of there.  And I agree, crappy layout.


That's correct. Here is a direct link to the image so it is a bit bigger to read. You can clearly see Rock Creek at the top and 35 to the left. 24th is off the map. Lifestyle portion is actually East or slightly SE of this area.

----------


## HangryHippo

> If I'm not mistaken that is south of rock creek and west of 24th. In theory the lifestyle portion is supposed to start NE of there.  And I agree, crappy layout.


Yep, that's my bad.  I mistook Rock Creek Rd for Tecumseh Rd.  Venture's right on the location.

----------


## Geographer

It's bad that we have to distinguish which streets are which to determine which part of the development is supposed to be a "lifestyle center" and which part isn't.....since we obviously can't tell by the design because it's all the same typical linear commercial sprawling development.

----------


## Just the facts

I don't know...  from what I have been reading lately on the Norman threads this 'lifestyle' center pretty much aligns with Norman's lifestyle.  I would say they nailed it.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I don't know...  from what I have been reading lately on the Norman threads this 'lifestyle' center pretty much aligns with Norman's lifestyle.  I would say they nailed it.


Harsh, but true.

----------


## venture

> I don't know...  from what I have been reading lately on the Norman threads this 'lifestyle' center pretty much aligns with Norman's lifestyle.  I would say they nailed it.


What you expect Normanites to walk, ride their bike, or use public transit? Silly Floridian. I'm going to go cry in the corner now.

----------


## ChargerAg

I read that Crest opens next week.   Has anybody heard anything about what the store will be like or anything special going on next week?

----------


## kevinpate

Opens Monday, November 18th.

Thus exhausts my knowledge of the matter, though I wish them well.

----------


## ChargerAg

> Opens Monday, November 18th.
> 
> Thus exhausts my knowledge of the matter, though I wish them well.


Nobody has stopped by to give us a report yet?

----------


## kevinpate

It's only been open a few hours.  maybe they are still in checkout line?

----------


## venture

> It's only been open a few hours.  maybe they are still in checkout line?


Or doing that thing called work.  :Smile:

----------


## soonerfan_in_okc

planning on going by this evening, will give an update

----------


## Jersey Boss

You're talking about a grocery store?

----------


## kevinpate

no, no, no Jersey.  We're talking about a CREST! Home of Rock bottom Prices.

.oO(oh crikies, when did I start to channel Thunder anyway)Oo.

FWIW, I drove by there this afternoon on my way to a business appt.  No doubt they are having a decent opening day.  Parking lot was jammed packed both times I went by.

----------


## soonerfan_in_okc

Yea it was really busy. The isles were super wide and everything was very nice looking. There were virtually no lines which was a suprise. Overall it reminded me of the Resers in Bixby, if anyone has been. Much nicer than there store on Rockwell or any homeland here in Norman.

----------


## Questor

I was surprised at how extremely large the new Crest is. I'm thinking it's the largest grocery store in Norman now. So the pros include many things... The store is very nice and certainly has its upscale elements such as multiple deli counters, a desert counter that looks nearly as nice as the glass counter at La Baguette, refrigerated compartments specializing in something like one I saw that was nothing but different types of mushrooms, and so on. The cons for me are two things... The first is that while they have a good selection of products and many fully cooked meals ready to go, I definitely do not get the Whole Foods-esque healthy and allergen-free vibe there. The other con is the staff... I noticed people at the deli counter standing around, or coming up to the counters, and while employees were standing by ready no one was  acknowledging the customers' presence. No "hi can I help you." The other thing I found annoying was that the kids doing inventory and moving around boxes of stuff were the crowd that thinks it's okay to walk in front of your customers, or cut off old ladies, and not say excuse me or even acknowledge a human presence.  So from that perspective there was definitely that certain walmart vibe.

----------


## Questor

I've been meaning to post some new pictures of UNP. The latest round of development is actually quite nice, and in some instances quite modern. If I get some free time after the holiday I'll do that and post them here.

----------


## MWCGuy

> I was surprised at how extremely large the new Crest is. I'm thinking it's the largest grocery store in Norman now. So the pros include many things... The store is very nice and certainly has its upscale elements such as multiple deli counters, a desert counter that looks nearly as nice as the glass counter at La Baguette, refrigerated compartments specializing in something like one I saw that was nothing but different types of mushrooms, and so on. The cons for me are two things... The first is that while they have a good selection of products and many fully cooked meals ready to go, I definitely do not get the Whole Foods-esque healthy and allergen-free vibe there. The other con is the staff... I noticed people at the deli counter standing around, or coming up to the counters, and while employees were standing by ready no one was  acknowledging the customers' presence. No "hi can I help you." The other thing I found annoying was that the kids doing inventory and moving around boxes of stuff were the crowd that thinks it's okay to walk in front of your customers, or cut off old ladies, and not say excuse me or even acknowledge a human presence.  So from that perspective there was definitely that certain walmart vibe.



Your first con: Crest does not aim for a certain type of customer like Whole Foods does. They aim for the general public and they will adjust their store based on the feed back they receive from the everyday customers once the newness wears off and everyday traffic commences. When the 104th Street store opened my parents hated it because they didn't carry the stuff they liked. They thought the store belonged in Nichols Hills or Edmond (They prefer a simple store with the things they like to buy). Now that the newness is gone, they love it and do almost all their shopping there. 

Second Con: The employees will get better and the quality of the service will get better. I have been a loyal Crest shopper for years now and the Harroz family expects the best customer service possible from there employees and I like to think they treat them well because I have seen same faces at the Midwest City stores since I moved here in 2008. The people that don't provide the best customer service usually don't stay very long with Crest. Lastly,  a large number of the grand opening employees usually turn over in the first year with just about every business I have dealt with over the years.

----------


## ou48A

I made my first trip to the new Norman Crest last night and was impressed... It's now Normans nicest Grocery store.

 I had no problems with the help. They were mostly kids who will learn and get better.
We were asked if we could be helped at all the counters we closely looked at. My wife recognized several faces from Sprouts and Homeland. One employe told her that Crest treated their employees much better than either of the other 2 stores. There were a few rock bottom prices on a few items which we stocked up on. 

The new Crest is going to really cut into Wal Mart, Target and Homeland's grocery sales. I don't see how the near by Homeland makes it. But we can enjoy the lower prices caused by the competition.
It was very windy, there was dirt blowing from the fresh the construction site into the parking area. That was the worst thing I saw.

I would agree with.... They aim for the general public

----------


## zachj7

It's a nice addition to Norman. This level of grocery store is to be expected in a metro of this size. It's not extraordinary but certainly a big step better than most. I wish OKC didn't have a few decent stores here and there but more consistency for quality. I hope other grocery stores and chains continue to value quality. With that said, I will now be shopping here instead of Walmart, Target, and Crapland.

----------


## Questor

Apparently this development has changed its name to University Town Center?  I received some marketing information on it with the new name recently. I also noticed this website has now been created:

University Town Center

----------


## Geographer

Sigh. It's anything but a town center, oh well...cemantics

----------


## Brett

> Apparently this development has changed its name to University Town Center?  I received some marketing information on it with the new name recently. I also noticed this website has now been created:
> 
> University Town Center


I was always confused by the name "University North Park". It kept reminding me of either the Shoppes at NorthPark in OKC or NorthPark Center/University Park in Dallas.

----------


## G.Walker

> Apparently this development has changed its name to University Town Center?  I received some marketing information on it with the new name recently. I also noticed this website has now been created:
> 
> University Town Center


They could have done better than that, this website is awful. I guess the website mimics the development, cheesy & cheap. UNP never lived up to what its original vision was supposed to be, a walkable mixed-use environment. Its just a massive sprawling strip mall/shopping center. One could argue that the town center in Midwest City is more pedestrian friendly, walkable, and better planned. I don't know where the ball was dropped, but this development still doesn't have housing, no major employer (what happened to the Advanced Manufacturing Center?), no office space (what happened to the corporate office park?), and no walking or bike trails.

It seems like every year the Norman Transcript will do a story on UNP saying a major employer is coming to the development, and the corporate office park will start. Well they have been saying this for years now, besides the Embassy Suites hotel, nothing developed in UNP has been catalyst. What a joke...

----------


## Questor

Yeah it's a pretty bad website. I think they basically just used a standard wordpress template. I guess their website was designed by the same 14 year old that planned out their land use.

----------


## Just the facts

> Sigh. It's anything but a town center, oh well...cemantics


Notice how the 10 pictures on the front page of the "Town Center" website are all of the parking lot, or taken in the parking lot.  Failure on soooo many levels, but at least it doesn't include a Walmart (yet).

----------


## kevinpate

> Notice how the 10 pictures on the front page of the "Town Center" website are all of the parking lot, or taken in the parking lot.  Failure on soooo many levels, but at least it doesn't include a Walmart (yet).


Big blue walmart box, no. Big red target box, yes. 
six of one, half dozen of the other on a few levels.

----------


## Geographer

We can't expect anything to change in the form of development in Norman anytime soon. The average Normanite doesn't 1) care about design 2) isn't even aware about "good" or acceptable design/form.

----------


## ljbab728

> We can't expect anything to change in the form of development in Norman anytime soon. The average Normanite doesn't 1) care about design 2) isn't even aware about "good" or acceptable design/form.


Link to back that up?

----------


## BG918

> We can't expect anything to change in the form of development in Norman anytime soon. The average Normanite doesn't 1) care about design 2) isn't even aware about "good" or acceptable design/form.


I don't think that's necessarily true.  Norman leadership and developers just have a small town mentality, and yes so do many of the citizens.  Though Norman is no longer a small town it still has the overall mentality of an suburb and not its own city.  I do think that will eventually change and we'll see Norman as more than just OU and neighborhoods full of either OU students/faculty or commuters to OKC.  The discourse created during the Lindsey St design process was proof that there are changes happening in Norman, though the outcome of that discourse and the constant delays associated with higher density residential projects in Campus Corner indicate that there is still plenty of work to do..

----------


## venture

Definitely agree BG. Change is happening, but it will probably take a generation to flush out the old thinking for the new.

----------


## Just the facts

> Originally Posted by Just the facts
> 
> 
> Notice how the 10 pictures on the front page of the "Town Center" website are all of the parking lot, or taken in the parking lot.  Failure on soooo many levels, but at least it doesn't include a Walmart (yet).
> 
> 
> Big blue walmart box, no. Big red target box, yes. 
> six of one, half dozen of the other on a few levels.


Sorry - that was a poke at the Choctaw Town Center - which is built around a Walmart.

----------


## G.Walker

What do you expect, its Choctaw?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I'm know I'm going to get crap for saying this, but I think the place is fine. I walked just fine through it and it had many nice stores. Was there the other weekend and no problems with it. I have no idea what it was sold as and I can understand if they sold it as what G.Walker said and then did this, how that would be maddening, but I have no personal issues with it.

This design is acceptable to me as long as it is maintained and is not located in in urban core, I don't see the problem with. The problem with most it seems like is a few people get mad when it is not pushed right up against the street, but then again, it sounds like to me that something completely different was sold to the people with this development so I can understand the frustration. I could see something like this being good for I-240. 

There are a few things that I don't like, though I don't really feel like going into detail, I can if someone wants me to though and yes, it could use a little better walkability.

----------


## gamecock

> I'm know I'm going to get crap for saying this, but I think the place is fine. I walked just fine through it and it had many nice stores. Was there the other weekend and no problems with it. I have no idea what it was sold as and I can understand if they sold it as what G.Walker said and then did this, how that would be maddening, but I have no personal issues with it.
> 
> This design is acceptable to me as long as it is maintained and is not located in in urban core, I don't see the problem with. The problem with most it seems like is a few people get mad when it is not pushed right up against the street, but then again, it sounds like to me that something completely different was sold to the people with this development so I can understand the frustration. I could see something like this being good for I-240. 
> 
> There are a few things that I don't like, though I don't really feel like going into detail, I can if someone wants me to though and yes, it could use a little better walkability.


The frustrating thing about it is that people apparently don't understand what they were sold in the first place. So far, this is what was advertised. The part that is yet to be determined is the "Town Center" that was supposed to go in south of the Embassy Suites. It's not entirely clear what that will turn out to be now, and yes, it will probably be different from what was promised (in part, because of the economy). Thus far, though, this development is pretty much what they said it would be. The Target, Academy, etc. was all intended to drive traffic for the Town Center that would eventually be located on the other side of the street.

----------


## bchris02

University North Park is still one of the better shopping centers in the metro area. I understand it was scaled down from what was originally promised, but at least it isn't Belle Isle. Hopefully one day OKC will get a true town center style development.

----------


## venture

Wasn't sure if we should break this out into another thread or not, but for now will keep it here.

Proposed Corporate Center in TIF would have industrial complex  Headlines  The Norman Transcript

The Corporate Center will be a business park and industrial complex on the TIF's north end and comprise of 60 acres. The NEDC had purched the original 30 acres and is now buying another 31.67 acres this week. 

City Council will consider spending $6.2 million for infrastructure improvements (utilities and such). NEDC apparently has one tenant already secured and will close the deal in a few weeks. 

Legacy Park will be done by August. The Lifestyle Center agreement requires the developer to have 250,000 sq ft of business to it by 2018.

----------


## G.Walker

> Wasn't sure if we should break this out into another thread or not, but for now will keep it here.
> 
> Proposed Corporate Center in TIF would have industrial complex  Headlines  The Norman Transcript
> 
> The Corporate Center will be a business park and industrial complex on the TIF's north end and comprise of 60 acres. The NEDC had purched the original 30 acres and is now buying another 31.67 acres this week. 
> 
> City Council will consider spending $6.2 million for infrastructure improvements (utilities and such). NEDC apparently has one tenant already secured and will close the deal in a few weeks. 
> 
> Legacy Park will be done by August. The Lifestyle Center agreement requires the developer to have 250,000 sq ft of business to it by 2018.


They write a similar article like this every year, and nothing happens....

----------


## G.Walker

From 2008: UNP Corporate Centre to be 'world-class'  Commerce  The Norman Transcript

From 2010: Norman City Council to consider resolutions to entice companies into University North Park | News OK

From 2012: Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK

From 2013: Center expected to boost economy  Headlines  The Norman Transcript

catch my drift?

----------


## venture

Oh I know. We've seen the story many times with Don Wood is telling us some great employer is coming in there. Like that one aviation company that was suppose to move in there, but some how vanished.

----------


## traxx

> Notice how the 10 pictures on the front page of the "Town Center" website are all of the parking lot, or taken in the parking lot.  Failure on soooo many levels, but at least it doesn't include a Walmart (yet).


Screw professional photographer. I gotta camera phone. Let's make usselves a website.

----------


## HangryHippo

Whatever happened to that advanced manufacturing company that was set to be announced?  Do we even know who it was and where they ended up choosing?  What about the aviation company venture referenced?  Anything on that?

----------


## catch22

Probably not even really existed. Just a ghost to make it sound like this is progressing.

----------


## Just the facts

> Screw professional photographer. I gotta camera phone. Let's make usselves a website.


It isn't the photographer with the problem, it is his subject that isn't photogenic.  If you are photographing the Sandra Bernhard of shopping centers it doesn't matter who is taking the picture.

----------


## venture

> Whatever happened to that advanced manufacturing company that was set to be announced?  Do we even know who it was and where they ended up choosing?  What about the aviation company venture referenced?  Anything on that?


Don Wood I think posts on this site, maybe he can come clean and fess up to what is actually going on out there. If they don't announce this new company by the end of the year, the guy will just lose what little credibility he has left in my eyes. If the deal isn't done, stay quiet and don't even hint at anything.

----------


## pw405

It appears a new hotel is being built just south of the Embassy. Currently framed out in metal rafters, it is about 4 stories high.  Seems odd there is enough demand for more hotel space, but perhaps it is an apartment?  Does anybody know?

----------


## bradh

> Whatever happened to that advanced manufacturing company that was set to be announced?  Do we even know who it was and where they ended up choosing?  What about the aviation company venture referenced?  Anything on that?


Is that what bid this afternoon (the infrastructure improvements at least)?  The title of the project was vague, something like UNP Corporate Center and Manufacturing

----------


## venture

I'm pretty sure it is the Holiday Inn Express that was announced several months back. I believe there are one or two additional hotel projects for UNP to help cover the demand from the convention center.

----------


## Roger S

> I'm pretty sure it is the Holiday Inn Express that was announced several months back. I believe there are one or two additional hotel projects for UNP to help cover the demand from the convention center.


I believe you are correct and the lot to the east of this will be a Residence Inn.

I can't give out to much information right now but a big box appliance store and a western wear store may be going in north of Kohl's. I'm not at liberty to name any names at this time and it's all preliminary right now and could change.

----------


## kevinpate

> I'm pretty sure it is the Holiday Inn Express that was announced several months back. I believe there are one or two additional hotel projects for UNP to help cover the demand from the convention center.


You believe correctly.

----------


## Geographer

The best part about UNP? The intersections are decorated with brick that forms the shape of a roundabout. I get a good chuckle everytime I go through this area.

----------


## Just the facts

> The best part about UNP? The intersections are decorated with brick that forms the shape of a roundabout. I get a good chuckle everytime I go through this area.


Fake it 'til you make it.

----------


## Geographer

Has anyone tried to get onto I-35 Northbound from Robinson? Whoever designed that little on-off ramp from Robinson to 35 right behind target at UNP was surely intoxicated at the time.

----------


## kevinpate

Not a fan.  Whether going to OKC or coming from, if I am driving, I prefer to use 77/Flood. In part because old habits die hard and in part because even with several improvements over the years, none were designed/constructed by starving zombies.

----------


## rcjunkie

> Has anyone tried to get onto I-35 Northbound from Robinson? Whoever designed that little on-off ramp from Robinson to 35 right behind target at UNP was surely intoxicated at the time.


I do a few times every month, never had any problems!

----------


## Soonerus

> Has anyone tried to get onto I-35 Northbound from Robinson? Whoever designed that little on-off ramp from Robinson to 35 right behind target at UNP was surely intoxicated at the time.


This entrance to I-35 is fine, I drive it almost daily. Pretty petty complaint...

----------


## David

Same here, I've never had a problem with it.

----------


## venture

I don't think it is terrible...but it isn't all that fun for those turning left onto Interstate Drive next to the tire place and realize they have only one option - I-35 north. It's not terrible though, but takes some getting use to.

----------


## soonerfan_in_okc

> This entrance to I-35 is fine, I drive it almost daily. Pretty petty complaint...


I drive it daily too and never have problems. Doesn't mean it couldn't have been done in a way that doesn't launch you on to the high way. They need a longer merge area, most cars seem to not get up to speed in the short amount of time they have to merge.

----------


## zachj7

First of all, nobody merges in Oklahoma. They just slow down and sometimes stop at the end of the entrance. If boggles my mind on why Oklahomans do that and the rest of our nation do not.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> First of all, nobody merges in Oklahoma. They just slow down and sometimes stop at the end of the entrance. If boggles my mind on why Oklahomans do that and the rest of our nation do not.


This isn't the thread for it, but I fully agree. I just avoid the "merging" lane altogether unless I'm entering or exiting the motorway.

----------


## SOONER8693

> This isn't the thread for it, but I fully agree. I just avoid the "merging" lane altogether unless I'm entering or exiting the motorway.


Looks like you 2 are just looking for something else to "hammer" Oklahomans about. I merge successfully all the time and see most "Oklahomans" merging with little or no problem.

----------


## traxx

> This isn't the thread for it, but I fully agree. I just avoid the "merging" lane altogether unless I'm entering or exiting the motorway.


Motorway? Did I click on the 1940s internet? I don't think I've heard anyone in this century call it that.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Looks like you 2 are just looking for something else to "hammer" Oklahomans about. I merge successfully all the time and see most "Oklahomans" merging with little or no problem.


I merge successfully, but it comes with its difficulties at times. There are often people -- they exist everywhere, but it is fairly common in OKC -- that slow down when they are merging or go very slow on the entrance ramp & cannot merge due to them still going 10-20 mph under the speed limit. This goes with what I was just talking about, but it is also somewhat common (everywhere, honestly) when the other lanes are empty but someone stays in the merging lane & causes someone to have to slow down because they cannot get on the motorway (freeway / interstate) faster than the person already on it. 

Disclaimer (since it is apparently needed) - I am not trying to bash the fine people of Oklahoma; I am, however, just stating my own personal experiences that may or may not be experienced by others.

I was not looking for anything to hammer Okies about -- I actually find it somewhat comical, maybe borderline silly, that such rhetorics of paranoia are applied every time someone does not state the highest honors for the people of *insert any state or country* -- , I just find it rather annoying to deal with people trying to merge that slow down -- despite them having no yield sign (the treatment of yield signs can be its own topic) -- when you slow down to allow them on.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Motorway? Did I click on the 1940s internet? I don't think I've heard anyone in this century call it that.


No, you clicked on an English -- as in the UK (United Kingdom, not University of Kentucky) -- term.  :Tongue:

----------


## LocoAko

> I merge successfully, but it comes with its difficulties at times. There are often people -- they exist everywhere, but it is fairly common in OKC -- that slow down when they are merging or go very slow on the entrance ramp & cannot merge due to them still going 10-20 mph under the speed limit. This goes with what I was just talking about, but it is also somewhat common (everywhere, honestly) when the other lanes are empty but someone stays in the merging lane & causes someone to have to slow down because they cannot get on the motorway (freeway / interstate) faster than the person already on it. 
> 
> Disclaimer (since it is apparently needed) - I am not trying to bash the fine people of Oklahoma; I am, however, just stating my own personal experiences that may or may not be experienced by others.
> 
> I was not looking for anything to hammer Okies about -- I actually find it somewhat comical, maybe borderline silly, that such rhetorics of paranoia are applied every time someone does not state the highest honors for the people of *insert any state or country* -- , I just find it rather annoying to deal with people trying to merge that slow down -- despite them having no yield sign (the treatment of yield signs can be its own topic) -- when you slow down to allow them on.


I'm originally from Jersey, and I noticed the exact same thing -- even people _stopping_ while attempting to merge. I see this with some regularity on major entrance ramps onto highways. Boggles my mind.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I'm originally from Jersey, and I noticed the exact same thing -- even people _stopping_ while attempting to merge. I see this with some regularity on major entrance ramps onto highways. Boggles my mind.


I have seen that as well. Thankfully, I'm on the interstate cruising by & not behind them stopped as well.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I'm originally from Jersey, and I noticed the exact same thing -- even people _stopping_ while attempting to merge. I see this with some regularity on major entrance ramps onto highways. Boggles my mind.


That's because in Jersey people merge at top end speeds, yield signs be damned!  I'll take any drivers over those in the NE any day.

----------


## Geographer

image.jpg

Presenting the UNP Ramp to Nowhere in front of Crest.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

dude who cares, just enjoy life a little bit and stop worrying about small things man. I went to UNP the other day and it was just fine. I liked it and walked about just fine.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> dude who cares, just enjoy life a little bit and stop worrying about small things man. I went to UNP the other day and it was just fine. I liked it and walked about just fine.


I took it as just a sarcastic / ironic / "tongue in cheek" kind of thing. It actually made me snicker a little.

----------


## Geographer

> I took it as just a sarcastic / ironic / "tongue in cheek" kind of thing. It actually made me snicker a little.


bingo. 

It's just a funny sight to see, that's all. Relax.

----------


## zachj7

That is the problem. There are yield signs everywhere on entrances even with plenty of merge room, so many Oaklahomans end up "yielding" as in stopping on the freeway while others pass them going 60 MPH. What are they suppose to do then? The opportunity to merge is gone and people then treat it like a stop sign or right turn lane into a freeway and sit still for an opening. I find it very dangerous to just stop at the end of the entrance. I find myself having to slam on my brakes behind someone as I enter the highway instead of speeding up like the rest of the country. Many Oklahomans must think I am crazy for thinking that it's strange. I have not observed this elsewhere in the United States. Culture shock I guess. I don't mean to insult Oklahomans. Anyways, either way I find the entrance  and exit at UNP nice. Much easier to get to Target and Crest going northbound on 35.

----------


## traxx

I've driven in several states and have encountered many idiot drivers everywhere. It's not unique to Oklahoma.

What I hate is when people feel like they have to drive all the way to the end of the merge lane before they get over. What I do when merging is look over and see where there's a space. Then I hop over into that space even if I have a lot of room left before the merge lane ends. When merging, you try for the zipper effect so that no one has to slow down. But what I get is people thinking "Oh, the merge lane ends. Time for me to get over." Yet, there I am and I can't get over to give them space because there's a car next to me and the idiot merging doesn't understand that two objects can't occupy the same space. The merge lane doesn't tell you when to get over, the traffic pattern does.

----------


## Just the facts

> image.jpg
> 
> Presenting the UNP Ramp to Nowhere in front of Crest.


At least it is ADA compliant.

----------


## SOONER8693

> I've driven in several states and have encountered many idiot drivers everywhere. It's not unique to Oklahoma.
> 
> What I hate is when people feel like they have to drive all the way to the end of the merge lane before they get over. What I do when merging is look over and see where there's a space. Then I hop over into that space even if I have a lot of room left before the merge lane ends. When merging, you try for the zipper effect so that no one has to slow down. But what I get is people thinking "Oh, the merge lane ends. Time for me to get over." Yet, there I am and I can't get over to give them space because there's a car next to me and the idiot merging doesn't understand that two objects can't occupy the same space. The merge lane doesn't tell you when to get over, the traffic pattern does.


Bingo. This is NOT unique to Oklahoma. Does NOT happen any more here than any other place. Those of you saying it does, are full of c**p and just looking for a reason to rag on Oklahoma.

----------


## venture

Is there a reason why there is still discussion about driving habits in the UNP thread? We probably have 3-5 driving habit/gripe threads from the last few months. Would probably be best to shift to that.

As far as UNP related. Finally went up to Crest and it is a really nice store. I hope they can keep it like that, but we'll see. Still a bit of a drive for me to go to over Homeland, but there might be some cases where it makes sense.

----------


## traxx

Mauds, we need a driving complaint subforum.

----------


## catch22

> Is there a reason why there is still discussion about driving habits in the UNP thread? We probably have 3-5 driving habit/gripe threads from the last few months. Would probably be best to shift to that.
> 
> As far as UNP related. Finally went up to Crest and it is a really nice store. I hope they can keep it like that, but we'll see. Still a bit of a drive for me to go to over Homeland, but there might be some cases where it makes sense.



Too much of a drive? Isn't the homeland just down the street?

Also they have kept up their 104/may store, clean and always stocked.

----------


## MWCGuy

> Too much of a drive? Isn't the homeland just down the street?
> 
> Also they have kept up their 104/may store, clean and always stocked.


Crest keeps all there stores clean and presentable. They are one of the few stores that have employees working around the clock facing, stocking and cleaning.  The only store that had any issues was the Reno Crest because it was aging. It just recieved a remodel with a lighting upgrade, new coolers/freezers and fresh paint. The store looks great.

----------


## venture

> Too much of a drive? Isn't the homeland just down the street?
> 
> Also they have kept up their 104/may store, clean and always stocked.


Should have said..."still a bit of a drive for me instead of just going over to Homeland." Considering I'm in SE Norman with a Homeland a mile from the house versus 8 miles away for Crest.

----------


## zachj7

I am in SE Norman also and I make the trip to Crest up at UNP. No way am I dealing with Crapland.

----------


## venture

> I am in SE Norman also and I make the trip to Crest up at UNP. No way am I dealing with Crapland.


Eh, the one on Alameda isn't terrible. I tend to coupon as well so I don't pay anywhere near what their sale prices are (I never buy non-sale items from them). I tend to know where prices typically fall so if I see something that is well priced at another store I'll get it there instead.

----------


## macfoucin

Seen a sign west of Ashleys Furniture beside I-35 that Chucky Cheeses is coming soon!  Be excited people, this is BIG news! :-)

----------


## Mr T

Destination shopping!  Wow.  Folk will most certainly drive from Dallas to frequent this 5-star restaurant.  I wonder if you will be able to see the exploding water cannons while you dine?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Seen a sign west of Ashleys Furniture beside I-35 that Chucky Cheeses is coming soon!  Be excited people, this is BIG news! :-)


aawwwww yeah! Next thing you know they'll announce a Taco Bell!!!!!!!!

----------


## warreng88

Went to Ashley Furniture yesterday to look for some pieces for our house. I called and they said they had a soft opening last Monday and a grand opening on Thursday. Well laid out store, reasonable prices and not all those annoying vultures like Mathis Brothers...

----------


## kevinpate

I am sooooo happy we are getting a Chuck E Cheese in Norman. Sometimes, you just want to get out, put your feet down and let other people's loud kiddos and crazy relatives hoop and hollar all around and slosh their soda on your shoes while you eat kiddie playground quality  chow that is called pizza just because it's fun to pretend it is I suppose

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I am sooooo happy we are getting a Chuck E Cheese in Norman. Sometimes, you just want to get out, put your feet down and let other people's loud kiddos and crazy relatives hoop and hollar all around and slosh their soda on your shoes while you eat kiddie playground quality  chow that is called pizza just because it's fun to pretend it is I suppose




 :Wink:

----------


## G.Walker

As the new renderings are better than the last, wished we had a little more height here, but I guess its good for what it is, a suburban office park.

----------


## G.Walker

Updated renderings for the University North Park Corporate Center:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

That is extremely nice! This is what a good suburban office development should look like. I'm jealous of Norman lately!

----------


## zachj7

Those renderings don't look that bad considering how University Park has gone so far.

----------


## HangryHippo

Has construction started on this yet?

----------


## catch22

> That is extremely nice! This is what a good suburban office development should look like. I'm jealous of Norman lately!


The people who use the offices get great views of the little pond, walking trail, and other buildings. And the public (who put forth the majority of the money for UNP) get to look at their cars and huge surface lots.

----------


## venture

> The people who use the offices get great views of the little pond, walking trail, and other buildings. And the public (who put forth the majority of the money for UNP) get to look at their cars and huge surface lots.


That's pretty typical for these type of developments though, unfortunately. Won't really see any investment to put in parking garages for something like this. It is nice to see they are still including the hangar and ramp access on the east side of it.

----------


## catch22

> That's pretty typical for these type of developments though, unfortunately. Won't really see any investment to put in parking garages for something like this. It is nice to see they are still including the hangar and ramp access on the east side of it.


That's true. I just wish more developers would throw the public a bone; since they finance a lot of the cost. Find some way to incorporate some pleasantries for the general public and not just those using the facility.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The people who use the offices get great views of the little pond, walking trail, and other buildings. And the public (who put forth the majority of the money for UNP) get to look at their cars and huge surface lots.


Go tell that crap to someone else man . This is a good development. Glad to see it be built and I'd love for something like that to be built in Edmond

This is the typical if it's not built up to the street with parking in the back it's bad garage

----------


## catch22

> Go tell that crap to someone else man . This is a good development. Glad to see it be built and I'd love for something like that to be built in Edmond
> 
> This is the typical if it's not built up to the street with parking in the back it's bad garage


Where did I say anything about being built up to the street or putting all of the parking in the back? All I said was there is nothing here that benefits the public, visual or recreational. And since the public is backing UNP, the developer should have the presence of mind to include the public in their plans. 

You are making assumptions. Stop that.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Alright

----------


## venture

> Go tell that crap to someone else man . This is a good development. Glad to see it be built and I'd love for something like that to be built in Edmond
> 
> This is the typical if it's not built up to the street with parking in the back it's bad garage


Dude really? Stop being such a total tool to everyone. Your comment contributes absolutely nothing to the thread. You also totally disregard and immediately attack Catch's comments...then not even an apology when you were shown to be wrong?

The development is solid and will be good for Norman and to help solidify UNP. Hopefully in 5 years when this development is done, the lifestyle center is done, and the rest of the development really starts to mature...it'll make up for the very lack luster start Norman's residents have been subsidizing.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Dude really? Stop being such a total tool to everyone. Your comment contributes absolutely nothing to the thread. You also totally disregard and immediately attack Catch's comments...then not even an apology when you were shown to be wrong?
> 
> The development is solid and will be good for Norman and to help solidify UNP. Hopefully in 5 years when this development is done, the lifestyle center is done, and the rest of the development really starts to mature...it'll make up for the very lack luster start Norman's residents have been subsidizing.


I have no apology to give and I'm not sorry for that either. I'm not an idiot and wasn't born yesterday 
People can lie to me, lie to themselves, but let's get back to reality. 

This office Park is getting built the way it is and that's a good thing. This is not an urban area and it doesn't need to be.

BTW, how exactly was I shown to be wrong? Catch22 specifically said people would have views of parking. THIS IS SUBURBIA!!!!!!!!!!!! Where else is there parking going to go? The only logical solution would be moving the buildings closer to the street and putting the parking behind. Am I wrong on that thinking? People don't give a crap about these things people always point out with these developments. You live in a fantasy world shooting down any development that isn't up to urban standards and don't even say you aren't because you know it's bull.

If you want to prove me wrong on that, tell me exactly what you'd do to make this development better because I honestly want to know. I already have an idea. I am making assumptions, but they are based on past history that I've personally witnessed since I've been a remember of this board. So please, enlighten me as to how you'd build this.

----------


## Questor

I was confused to see Legacy Park going in near I-35, over by Ashley Furniture and all that stuff. I could have sworn the original plans had the park being installed more towards the center of this development?

----------


## catch22

nm

----------


## Rover

> The people who use the offices get great views of the little pond, walking trail, and other buildings. And the public (who put forth the majority of the money for UNP) get to look at their cars and huge surface lots.


You honestly think the public has put up most of the money to develop UNP?  Seriously?

----------


## catch22

> You honestly think the public has put up most of the money to develop UNP?  Seriously?


Correct me if I am wrong but Norman basically gave them the land.

----------


## Geographer

I had the finance Director for the City of Norman tell me that seeing the park from the interstate will make people get off and go shop there. LOL.

Zooming by at 70 MPH...

----------


## gamecock

> I had the finance Director for the City of Norman tell me that seeing the park from the interstate will make people get off and go shop there. LOL.
> 
> Zooming by at 70 MPH...


Frankly, I think some people just like to complain about this development no matter how it eventually ends up. And it makes sense to me that people might see it and stop--if not on that trip, on a future one. I have done this when visiting places in the past (i.e., make note that they look like a good place to stop on a future trip). I am not certain, but I believe there also may eventually be restaurants surrounding the fountain area. It would be nice to have a place where you can eat and then walk around a bit. Driving past, it appears to be coming along nicely.

----------


## venture

> You honestly think the public has put up most of the money to develop UNP?  Seriously?


So are you saying the TIF funding style doesn't pull money from the public?

----------


## Spartan

Yeah, you can't argue against the fact that this project is a corporate welfare recipient. In addition to the TIF for the hotel on an island, the land used to be public. The city is also contractually building a public park in front of a highway onramp in this development. 

The developers built that arrangement by promising the public that it would be a lifestyle center. They said world class "like Utica Square." There is good justification here for public scrutiny. This is one of the most vicious bait-and-switches I've ever seen, and Norman's pro-sprawl council just rolled over and played dead.

Next time Oklahoma-based developers promise world class, run away as fast as you can!

----------


## venture

To be fair Spartan, most of the city council that approved that has been voted out of office and it is relatively new people. 

At least the lifestyle center is still going to be built, unfortunately they used the justification of needed to bring traffic there first to build the strip mall developments we see now.

----------


## Mr T

So there must be two posters named Spartan?  https://web.archive.org/web/20060114...021/m/92310076

----------


## David

> So there must be two posters named Spartan?  https://web.archive.org/web/20060114...021/m/92310076


_Posted September 22, 2005 17:32_

Are you really implying people cannot change their opinions over the course of an entire decade? Or is there a point to your post that I am missing?

----------


## Mr T

Of course a mind can be changed.  I think a person of powerful persuasive abilities should be careful.  It is too late for UNP.

----------


## Rover

> Correct me if I am wrong but Norman basically gave them the land.


Pretty sure it is land owned by OU and leased to the developers.

----------


## Brownwood

> Yeah, you can't argue against the fact that this project is a corporate welfare recipient. In addition to the TIF for the hotel on an island, the land used to be public. The city is also contractually building a public park in front of a highway onramp in this development. 
> 
> The developers built that arrangement by promising the public that it would be a lifestyle center. They said world class "like Utica Square." There is good justification here for public scrutiny. This is one of the most vicious bait-and-switches I've ever seen, and Norman's pro-sprawl council just rolled over and played dead.
> 
> Next time Oklahoma-based developers promise world class, run away as fast as you can!


Agree. The project initially promised much more than the common strip mall it has become with it's vast array of fast food and "world class" retailers such as Dollar Tree, Dress Barn and National Tire. 

I'm pleased that the overall development has maintained a consistent look and quality. When compared to the gypsy development 3 miles north off 19th street it looks far superior. Not sure if the plans would have been different if not for the recession which hit during the initial stages of development.

----------


## Pioneer

Dirt work next to IBC Bank in front of Crest.. Any ideas?

----------


## gamecock

> Agree. The project initially promised much more than the common strip mall it has become with it's vast array of fast food and "world class" retailers such as Dollar Tree, Dress Barn and National Tire. 
> 
> I'm pleased that the overall development has maintained a consistent look and quality. When compared to the gypsy development 3 miles north off 19th street it looks far superior. Not sure if the plans would have been different if not for the recession which hit during the initial stages of development.


Construction hasn't begun on the part of the project to which you refer. The lifestyle center, which was supposed to be the upscale of part of the development (and the part that everyone seems to focus on), was always supposed to be across the street. As I have said before, it is still too early to pass final judgment on this project and whether or not it comes close to living up to expectations. And, yes, the economic situation has certainly made the situation more difficult.

----------


## kevinpate

> Dirt work next to IBC Bank in front of Crest.. Any ideas?


My understanding is it will be Verizon wireless.  On the sad side, oh joy, another cell box. On the bright side, at least it isn't another mattress box.

----------


## venture

That is weird that Verizon would build another location when they are already in UNP, unless they have outgrown the current location?

----------


## kevinpate

Just what I have heard. Might be in error.  Myself, I was hoping for the Jack in the Box that was mentioned as a possible for the general area some time back. I mean seriously, doesn't everyone at least secretly hanker for another not too far away place to get a sorta-ok burger or a desperation taco?

----------


## Spartan

> So there must be two posters named Spartan?  https://web.archive.org/web/20060114...021/m/92310076


Wow thanks for finding that.

I've already disavowed my past though, young Republican and all. Kinda scary.

----------


## lasomeday

Now you are hardcore hipster.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Legacy Park construction continues in Norman | News OK

----------


## soonermike81

Hey wanted to find out some information regarding some of the properties in University Town Center.  How would I go about finding out who the owner is of a certain retail center?  Specifically, the one with Five Guys and the one with Gigi's Cupcakes.  Thanks in advance!

----------


## okatty

You can go to the Cleveland County Assessor site and plug in address or the intersection and pull up info.

----------


## soonermike81

> You can go to the Cleveland County Assessor site and plug in address or the intersection and pull up info.


Thanks but I tried that.  If I type in the address to those businesses, the Cleveland County Assessor only brings up the information for those specific businesses.  I'm trying to find out who owns the strip that those businesses are located in.  Unless there is something I'm not doing right when using the website.

----------


## okatty

Cleveland County Assessor - Cookies 

not sure which parcel is the one you are interested in but this would be the owner.  Based out of NC.  You can search that name to see the ones it owns.

----------


## kevinpate

The bldg where 5 guys leases is KRG Norman University II, LLC
c/o Kite Realty Group  30 S Meridian, Ste. 1100, Indianapolis, IN 46204

see:
Cleveland County Assessor - Cookies
[if link doesn't work, the account number for the property is R0162389]

Sorry, but I do not know where the cupcake place is to look up that bldg.  My lovely teaches cake and cupcake decorating via Joann's in our local mall.  Pretty sure we haven't had a store bought cupcake or cake in the house since she started.

----------


## kevinpate

I almost forgot google was my friend. Found gigis.

Owned by KRG Norman University, LLC. Also Kite Ralty, same mailing address as other post
See:
Cleveland County Assessor - Cookies
[if link doesn't work, account number for property is R0151824]

And, because google is indeed a friend, here's a phone number  317-577-5600

And, two leasing contacts

Karly Kilroy   214-497-7914          [  kkilroy  AT  kiterealty  DOT com ]
Jeff Wright    317-713-5698          [  jwright  AT  same ]

Now, want me to order ya anything off amazon while the browser is up?   :Smile:

----------


## soonermike81

Thanks a lot guys!  

Kevin, how did you find out the account number for the property, to input into the county assessor site?

----------


## pure

since this thread has been brought back from the dead, anyone know what is going in front of Academy?

----------


## HangryHippo

There was an article in the Norman Transcript that stated there is a new 303 unit apartment complex that has been approved for this development.  There were designs or renderings in the article, but it did say more information would be forthcoming.

----------


## kevinpate

> Thanks a lot guys!  
> 
> Kevin, how did you find out the account number for the property, to input into the county assessor site?


That's the sort of knowledge I in part make my living on.   :Smile: 


Edit - kidding, sort of.

You locate one record. Its image in a project like this will show others.  Both buildings you were interested in were part of large parcels. Made it fairly simple, though at one point i mistyped and found myself on a record for 119sw and bfe. Took me a minute to untwilight  zone myself

----------


## ereid

> since this thread has been brought back from the dead, anyone know what is going in front of Academy?


There are quite a few restaurants going in.

----------


## seaofchange

> Thanks a lot guys!  
> 
> Kevin, how did you find out the account number for the property, to input into the county assessor site?


in case you hadn't already found this:

Kite Realty | University Town Center

----------


## vaflyer

> since this thread has been brought back from the dead, anyone know what is going in front of Academy?


A building permit for World of Beer Restaurant was issued for this location.

----------


## progressiveboy

> There are quite a few restaurants going in.


   Red Rock Canyon Grill will be one of those restaurants.



Norman restaurant planned | News OK

----------


## kevinpate

Cougartown South

----------


## G.Walker

Terra: In the Works

UNP 3 Renderings.jpg

----------


## macfoucin

According to this Tuckers Onion Burger and Corner Bakery are going in front of Kohl's.tuckers and corner bakery.GIF

----------


## Prunesmoothie

Any updates on this area?    Curious as to what is going in on the SE side of Tecumseh and 24th. I see Immy has started construction but any updates to the Class A office space that is supposed to be going in or if other businesses are moving to the area?

----------


## pure

I noticed a sign for a new location for Metro Shoe Warehouse in front of Kohl's/Rue 21/that shoe store. I wonder why they're moving a couple blocks down.

----------


## zacelliott

> I noticed a sign for a new location for Metro Shoe Warehouse in front of Kohl's/Rue 21/that shoe store. I wonder why they're moving a couple blocks down.


The current store next to Qdoba is tiny. My wife wanted some shoes and I went with her and it was so hard to move around in there. They could also stand to get some more selection too so I welcome a new bigger building.

----------


## HangryHippo

How is construction coming along on the office park portion of this development?  I know IMMY was pretty close to breaking ground so I'm curious if they've identified any other tenants or started work.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

It looks like Torchy's Tacos and World of Beer have the exterior done and their signs are on the back doors. Doesn't look like much going on inside of them though.

----------


## gman11695

Also, construction has started on a building on the east side of 24th by Rock Creek. Looks like they've put up some steel and had a crane out there today.

Ground work has also been done on the east side of 24th, south of Tecumseh on what looks like around 4 or 5 office buildings. They have a large sign up with drawings of the buildings.

----------


## soonermike81

> It looks like Torchy's Tacos and World of Beer have the exterior done and their signs are on the back doors. Doesn't look like much going on inside of them though.


Is Torchys and World of Beer going to be in the same building? I ask because I only see one building erected.

----------


## G22

> Is Torchys and World of Beer going to be in the same building? I ask because I only see one building erected.


Torchy's and World of Beer will be in the same building.  Torchy's will be in the north half and have the outdoor patio.   I don't know the current status but at one point World of Beer was looking to add a brunch menu in order to overcome lease restrictions a couple of the anchor tenants had about bars being located near them.

----------


## macfoucin

A few new additions coming to UNP I have not seen mentioned yet:
Chili's
The Ranch Steakhouse
Guitar Center
Hibdon Tires Plus

Sources are Kite Realty | University Town Center and Destination Norman both great sites for new developments.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> A few new additions coming to UNP I have not seen mentioned yet:
> Chili's
> *The Ranch Steakhouse*
> Guitar Center
> Hibdon Tires Plus
> 
> Sources are Kite Realty | University Town Center and Destination Norman both great sites for new developments.


WHAT?!?!?!? Please say this is true

Edit: Nevermind. It isn't The Ranch like the one in OKC... Just a chain

----------


## Tavia

It is The Ranch Steakhouse that is in OKC.  My niece is a hostess at their north location.  She mentioned this awhile ago.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> It is The Ranch Steakhouse that is in OKC.  My niece is a hostess at their north location.  She mentioned this awhile ago.


How sure are you? In the picture on the site here: http://assets.kiterealty.com/_files/...20160314155810

That is The Ranch Steakhouse and Grill which is a national chain with that logo. 

I hope you are right though. I want The Ranch Steakhouse from OKC in Norman. I would be eating there monthly like I used to when I lived in OKC.

----------


## Roger S

> That is The Ranch Steakhouse and Grill which is a national chain with that logo.


The only hits I'm getting for The Ranch Steakhouse and Grill are all located in the UK.

At the same time the steakhouse located here is not branded as The Ranch Steakhouse... It is Ranch Steakhouse.

----------


## soonerfan_in_okc

I personally don't see a restaurant of that caliber going in next to a tire store across from a kohls. My money is on it being something different.

----------


## soonermike81

Have no idea if it's Ranch Steakhouse from OKC, but I could see someone just finding a stock logo online somewhere of a place called "the ranch" and slapping it on there without paying attention if they're the same company. After all, kite is a huge REIT, and I doubt the person that put together that picture tried very hard to look for a logo of OKC's Ranch. 

If it is OKC's Ranch, then it's s huge score for Norman. Wife and I just ate there tonight for our anniversary and it was absolutely amazing. Puts Red Prime and Mickey Mantles to shame, it's not even close.

----------


## Roger S

Well the high end restaurants were originally slated to go near Legacy Park. One of the first names I heard tossed around originally was going to be Mahogany. But with the delays that took place on Legacy Park. I'm guessing that's what made Hal Smith Group choose the downtown location instead.

At one time I had seen a future development map that showed a Shepler's would be going in UNP too but I'm not sure with the Boot Barn acquisition of Shepler's if that will still happen or not.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Well the high end restaurants were originally slated to go near Legacy Park. One of the first names I heard tossed around originally was going to be Mahogany. But with the delays that took place on Legacy Park. I'm guessing that's what made Hal Smith Group choose the downtown location instead.
> 
> At one time I had seen a future development map that showed a Shepler's would be going in UNP too but I'm not sure with the Boot Barn acquisition of Shepler's if that will still happen or not.


I could see The Ranch having it's own building like the Red Rock Grill that is going in but next to a tire place in a strip mall area seems odd for a high end place. I could be wrong though.

----------


## Urbanized

LOL the Ranch makes my top three in OKC to be sure, but "...puts Red Prime and Mickey Mantle's to shame, it's not even close..." is an outlandish statement. FWIW it would be third in my book, behind those places, which are virtually interchangeable at 1 and 2.

----------


## Roger S

> I could see The Ranch having it's own building like the Red Rock Grill that is going in but next to a tire place in a strip mall area seems odd for a high end place. I could be wrong though.


Yep... I agree completely that the location is wrong and it would be a stand alone building for a prime steakhouse.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

I guess it would be its own building on that lot. Just odd to be there.

Looking at the post earlier it looks like the Tucker's was going in where the Tropical Cafe is located on the other map here: http://assets.kiterealty.com/_files/...20160314155810

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Updated Graphic:

http://i.imgur.com/n1oDXra.png

Thats the real Ranch Steakhouse. Also shows Chilis and that Tuckers and the Japanese Steakhouse are sharing a site.

----------


## mattjank

Are there any plans to make this the least bit accessible on foot? Took my car for tires at Discount Tires and planned to run home. The west side of  24th has zero sidewalks and there is only one crossing point to get to the sidewalk on the east side of the road. But that doesn't really help if you plan to go to Rock Creek since the sidewalk ends just north of Crest. I understand many lots are still under construction, but there doesn't look like plans or places for sidewalks in the future. So you either get to go through the parking lot or into traffic on 24th, which is 40-45 mph for the whole stretch.

Lets change the name to University North Carpark.

----------


## Geographer

> Are there any plans to make this the least bit accessible on foot? Took my car for tires at Discount Tires and planned to run home. The west side of  24th has zero sidewalks and there is only one crossing point to get to the sidewalk on the east side of the road. But that doesn't really help if you plan to go to Rock Creek since the sidewalk ends just north of Crest. I understand many lots are still under construction, but there doesn't look like plans or places for sidewalks in the future. So you either get to go through the parking lot or into traffic on 24th, which is 40-45 mph for the whole stretch.
> 
> Lets change the name to University North Carpark.


This is the exact reason why I have been against this entire development since its inception, especially since a TIF district was created.  TIF districts are "supposed" to be used to help create an environment that would not otherwise be created alone.  This whole area is just a new-age retail strip development with "fancy" brick facades.  I would imagine that planned "park/plaza" will be highly underutilized. It's really unfortunate because UNP could have really been a special place to be.

----------


## mattjank

> This is the exact reason why I have been against this entire development since its inception, especially since a TIF district was created.  TIF districts are "supposed" to be used to help create an environment that would not otherwise be created alone.  This whole area is just a new-age retail strip development with "fancy" brick facades. _ I would imagine that planned "park/plaza" will be highly underutilized_. It's really unfortunate because UNP could have really been a special place to be.


Agreed. Especially since there is no way to walk there from any parking lot.

----------


## Geographer

> Agreed. Especially since there is no way to walk there from any parking lot.


I should change my username to "OH GAWD THE PARKING!"

#lolparking 


lolparking2.JPG

lolparking.JPG

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> I should change my username to "OH GAWD THE PARKING!"
> 
> #lolparking 
> 
> 
> lolparking2.JPG
> 
> lolparking.JPG


I will say this. That Crest parking lot could be cut in 1/4th and still be fine. It is never full

----------


## HangryHippo

Is it weird to anyone else that the "park" was put next to I-35?  The truck traffic kind of kills the vibe.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Is it weird to anyone else that the "park" was put next to I-35?  The truck traffic kind of kills the vibe.


Yeah and you would think it would also make more sense to have stores there to display more activity and more advertisement closer to the highway.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Yeah and you would think it would also make more sense to have stores there to display more activity and more advertisement closer to the highway.



I thought it would be nicer on the opposite side of the street. Lots of trees and would be a bit quieter.

----------


## soonermike81

> LOL the Ranch makes my top three in OKC to be sure, but "...puts Red Prime and Mickey Mantle's to shame, it's not even close..." is an outlandish statement. FWIW it would be third in my book, behind those places, which are virtually interchangeable at 1 and 2.


If you're going for the atmosphere/location, those other 2 are great depending on how you like your decor. But in my opinion, the steaks don't even compare to the ranch. My first experience at red prime, I thought it was on par with Texas Roadhouse, not a high end steakhouse. Actually had a couple other people say the same thing to me. My second and only other visit there was better, but nowhere near the ranch. Mickey Mantles is better than RP, IMO, but not close to the ranch either.

----------


## soonermike81

And to be fair, my first visit to RP was during restaurant week. So they may have been cheaping out on their cuts. But I am certain it wasn't a prime cut.

----------


## Questor

> Is it weird to anyone else that the "park" was put next to I-35?  The truck traffic kind of kills the vibe.


I completely agree.  I think it was somewhere else on this message board that someone explained that the developers decided to move it next to I-35 because they believed people would be driving by, see the nice park, and want to pull off the highway and visit UNP.  [Facepalm]

----------


## Questor

...

----------


## Pete

I noticed today that Torchy's Tacos has its sign up and they look like they are getting close.

----------


## Roger S

I forgot Torchy's was going in. Ate at one in Austin and it wasn't too bad. I'll probably stick to the locally owned taquerias myself but it's a good option for people that find the local taquerias to be outside their comfort zone.

----------


## gman11695

Just took today. Snapped real quick while driving by haha
Torchy's Tacos:
image.jpeg
Chili's:
image.jpeg

----------


## Stan Silliman

What is the building in the SW corner next to the Legacy Park amphitheater and lake? Has this already been discussed. I'd say it's within 4-6 weeks of completion.

----------


## Roger S

> What is the building in the SW corner next to the Legacy Park amphitheater and lake? Has this already been discussed. I'd say it's within 4-6 weeks of completion.


I'm pretty sure it's a restaurant but the name slips my mind at the moment.

----------


## Pete

BTW, this development has been called University Town Center for some time.

I'll change the title of the thread.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> What is the building in the SW corner next to the Legacy Park amphitheater and lake? Has this already been discussed. I'd say it's within 4-6 weeks of completion.


Red Rock Grill. Like the one by Hefner Lake. Hal Smith place.

Edit* Redrock Canyon Grill is the actual name.

----------


## Roger S

> BTW, this development has been called University Town Center for some time.


It's all platted as University North Park.... So technically both names fit.




> Red Rock Grill. Like the one by Hefner Lake. Hal Smith place.


Yeah.... it's going to be what he said.

At one time it was going to be a Mahogany but I guess after all the legal delays on the park and putting the new Mahogany downtown. That plan got scrapped

----------


## Jersey Boss

Anybody know the status of World of Beer? The corporate website does not list "Norman" as "coming soon".

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Anybody know the status of World of Beer? The corporate website does not list "Norman" as "coming soon".


I also haven't heard anything for a long time on it. They have the sign on the back door of the place but it isn't as far along as Torchy's obviously so something is going down.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> I also haven't heard anything for a long time on it. They have the sign on the back door of the place but it isn't as far along as Torchy's obviously so something is going down.


Sent them an e mail yesterday and they responded that they are in fact still opening in Norman and forecast late 2016.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Latest Torchy's news from their Facebook page:

It's the moment you've been waiting for - Torchy's Tacos is firing up in Norman, OK. Let's party! 

OPENING PARTY: 
MONDAY JUNE 20, 2016 
6 PM - 9PM 
with FREE tacos, FREE adult beverages, chips & dips, giveaways & FUN! 

Open to the public. See you there!

OPENING DAY: TUESDAY JUNE 21, 2016 - 7AM.

----------


## soonermike81

Super excited about this!  Torchy's is delicious; not just their tacos but their queso is bomb as well.  I bet it's going to be a train wreck trying to get into that place for at least a few months, though.  Maybe with so many kids gone for the Summer, it won't be so bad.

----------


## mattjank

> Super excited about this!  Torchy's is delicious; not just their tacos but their queso is bomb as well.  I bet it's going to be a train wreck trying to get into that place for at least a few months, though.  Maybe with so many kids gone for the Summer, it won't be so bad.


I'm planning on breakfast only for a while. Or call in to go orders. Will be nuts

----------


## mattjank

Drove by last night, and the line was about 300 deep at 6:30. Circled all the way around the building and out through the parking lot behind. 

This morning was much better, only 6 in line ahead of me at 8:15. Quite a few people already seated and eating/waiting on orders.

----------


## kevinpate

I'll presume the long line Monday eve was due to free grub or other giveaway.  

I can't imagine standing in a 300 deep line for a high quality steak with all the trimmings, let alone for a taco.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Just drove past at lunch going to get my hair cut.

The line was out the door at 12:30pm

----------


## mattjank

Driving home last night on i-35, there were a ton of cars in the Redrock Canyon Grill parking lot. Does anyone know if it is open?

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Driving home last night on i-35, there were a ton of cars in the Redrock Canyon Grill parking lot. Does anyone know if it is open?


Opening in 12 days.

----------


## pure

Got a flyer in the mail. Guitar Center grand opening is August 11.

----------


## kevinpate

My son got that flyer.  Made him happy.

----------


## _Cramer_

I saw a commercial this morning on TV and it said they were already open...

----------


## Andrew4OU

Ate at Red Rock on Thursday last week. A friend invited me after she received a mailer asking her to check out the place.  All drinks (even alcoholic ones!) and food were on the house.  It was delicious. They open tomorrow.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

New Metroshoe Warehouse opened last week.

Torchy's lines are going down now.

Hibdon's is under construction.

----------


## HangryHippo

Who does the parking garage that's going up belong to?

----------


## Pete

> Who does the parking garage that's going up belong to?


Believe that's an apartment complex.

Will be wood construction around the concrete parking structure.

----------


## sprdthewrd

it is a large development. the builder has something in process in OKC

----------


## Pete

It's 303 units by Gary Brooks, developer of Steelyard, The Edge and the apartments at Chisholm Creek.

The project is called Terra.

----------


## Jersey Boss

Post # 773 is confusing me. Is this apartment for OKC or Norman?

----------


## Pete

I think he is saying in #773 that the builder for this apartment project in Norman (Terra) is also doing projects in OKC.

Which is true, because it's Gary Brooks (Steelyard, Edge, etc.).

----------


## dankrutka

> Post # 773 is confusing me. Is this apartment for OKC or Norman?


Norman

----------


## progressiveboy

It looks like La Madeleine's is going into University Park. This is a great fit!


http://newsok.com/commercial-propert...rticle/5519549

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

I am pretty sure World of Beer is dead.

They are breaking ground next to Legacy Park across from Red Rock but I can't find any info on that lot.

----------


## macfoucin

Hampton Inn is building next to Holiday Inn Express and will be closing the Ed Noble Parkway location.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Forgot to add that Tucker's is hiring in Norman so I would expect to see that up soon.

----------


## kevinpate

> Hampton Inn is building next to Holiday Inn Express and will be closing the Ed Noble Parkway location.


Will the ENP location close up completely, or simply come under a different flag?

----------


## macfoucin

http://www.normantranscript.com/news...fecebe7aa.html

----------


## HangryHippo

I'll be very curious to see what Norman does with the Ed Noble Parkway collection of empty buildings.  It seems like a prime opportunity to redevelop it into a new urbanist setting!

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Update: Tuckers is now open in this area, Hibdon Tires also open and Tropical Cafe.

----------


## pure

Anyone have any insider information on what's going into the new building by Academy and the park?

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Anyone have any insider information on what's going into the new building by Academy and the park?


No idea. Thinking it will be part of the la Madeleine.

----------


## macfoucin

Found the updated CBRE map at the below link...then click on flyer.  

Proposed businesses at UNP:
Bad Daddy's Burger Bar by Torchy's 
Burlington by Guitar Center 
Petsmart by Guitar Center  (assume the ENP location would close)
Carmax by Chuck E Cheese

New businesses shown but not listed as Proposed:
La Z Boy by Chuck E Cheese
Ranch Steakhouse by Hibdons

Also shows future buildings north of Crest and a proposed activity center north of Embassy Suites.




http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/Looplink...CB0003&LL=true

----------


## Pete

^

Thank you.

Holy cow, this place is just so massive.  I'm sure it will soon be the biggest retail development in the state.

----------


## Pete

BTW, this would be a great location for Costco.

I'm not sure how close they are to a deal, but I know they have been talking.

----------


## soonermike81

> Found the updated CBRE map at the below link...then click on flyer.  
> 
> Proposed businesses at UNP:
> Bad Daddy's Burger Bar by Torchy's 
> Burlington by Guitar Center 
> *Petsmart by Guitar Center  (assume the ENP location would close)*
> Carmax by Chuck E Cheese
> 
> New businesses shown but not listed as Proposed:
> ...


There's already a Petco next to the Office Depot.  Wouldn't this me some sort of conflict of interest for the landlord?  That's assuming that Petco put in a non-compete clause in their lease.

----------


## HangryHippo

They're putting a CarMax in this development?

----------


## Pete

> They're putting a CarMax in this development?


Facing the interstate and behind the strip center.

----------


## ChargerAg

> BTW, this would be a great location for Costco.
> 
> I'm not sure how close they are to a deal, but I know they have been talking.


Is there an actual chance that Norman could land a Costco?

----------


## Pete

> Is there an actual chance that Norman could land a Costco?


Yes, and in fact Norman may be the first place in the OKC area they choose.

----------


## catch22

> There's already a Petco next to the Office Depot.  Wouldn't this me some sort of conflict of interest for the landlord?  That's assuming that Petco put in a non-compete clause in their lease.


No. Typically conflicts of interest are only if the landlord also runs a business of the same type on the same or nearby property. You don't want to compete with your landlord.

Example, WRWA will not allow parking operators to operate anywhere on airport property for this reason -- the airport has their own garages they take revenue for and thus cannot enter into a lease where they compete with their tenant. The massive size of the airport's property really restricts any private competition in the airport parking business for this reason.

Think of all of the developments which house a McDonald's and a Burger King? Or an Outback and a Texas Roadhouse. Plenty of examples and it is certainly not uncommon.

----------


## sooner88

Will that be just the second Ranch location? Think they could do well in Norman.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Will that be just the second Ranch location? Think they could do well in Norman.


Looks like it. This has been on the development page for a while and no building has started yet. Would love to see it.

----------


## Soonerman

I'm still hoping for a Cost Plus World Market.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Renderings look as if they will continue Conference Dr. over the interstate via a new bridge. Is that the case?

Not sure I would agree with this development being the biggest in the state. Memorial Rd. seems to be the biggest by far and it seems like I-40 in West OKC Metro is coming in at second.

----------


## Pete

> Renderings look as if they will continue Conference Dr. over the interstate via a new bridge. Is that the case?
> 
> Not sure I would agree with this development being the biggest in the state. Memorial Rd. seems to be the biggest by far and it seems like I-40 in West OKC Metro is coming in at second.


I meant single biggest by one developer.

----------


## kevinpate

> Renderings look as if they will continue Conference Dr. over the interstate via a new bridge. Is that the case?
> ...


West side of 35 that lines up is a road into a residential area. Not seeing UTC connecting across 35 at that spot.

----------


## pure

What do they mean by Activity Center? Something like a Main Event? 

I knew Hampton was going in but I didn't realize a Residence Inn was also going in. This is going to bring a lot more conferences to Embassy Suites since there are going to be more hotel rooms within walking distance.

----------


## Pete

I believe the Activity Center is more for community events.

----------


## pure

Now that you mention that, I'm 90% certain it's the proposed Norman Convention Center. http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> West side of 35 that lines up is a road into a residential area. Not seeing UTC connecting across 35 at that spot.


Yeah I agree I don't see how it could happen unless ODOT completely reconstructed I-35 below grade which that will be decades away if that ever happens.

----------


## RedSoxFan

Actually, I have heard heard rumors that Embassy Suites in Norman is possibly filing for bankruptcy because of the lack of demand for the hotel. Again, just a rumor.

----------


## pure

> Actually, I have heard heard rumors that Embassy Suites in Norman is possibly filing for bankruptcy because of the lack of demand for the hotel. Again, just a rumor.


technically they did already last year, not the Norman location in particular, but the company as a whole. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascit...ankruptcy.html

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Looks like Shilla Korean BBQ is about to open next to Tucker's. I know nothing about it yet but I do love Korean food so I'll be there asap when it opens.

----------


## Dustin

> Looks like Shilla Korean BBQ is about to open next to Tucker's. I know nothing about it yet but I do love Korean food so I'll be there asap when it opens.


You just made me so happy!  I had no idea this was opening.

I can't find anything online or on facebook about a Norman location or an Oklahoma location for that matter.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

This looks like their sign?

http://www.shilakbbq.com/

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

IMG_8859.JPG

----------


## macfoucin

Destination Norman map is showing La Madeleine going in the new building NE of Legacy Park.
http://lamadeleine.com/

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Destination Norman map is showing La Madeleine going in the new building NE of Legacy Park.
> http://lamadeleine.com/


Cool map! I will use it to add some projects to OKC Development map.

http://www.destinationnorman.com/data/

----------


## macfoucin

Destination Norman data is showing submitted application for permits for Carmax just North of Chuck E Cheeses. 
Also a PDQ  restaurant just North of Tuckers.
A McAlisters Deli to go along with the La Madeleine in the new building South of Academy.

----------


## macfoucin

Also the most exciting news I have today is the Destination Norman map is showing a Longhorn steakhouse in the Sooner Mall parking lot SE of Sears. I drove by this weekend and they had it fenced off and was doing dirtwork.  I'm excited about this one!

----------


## pure

Anyone know a time frame on La Madeleine? 

Also noticed on that Destination Norman map that Del Taco is going in North of Walgreens on 12th

----------


## Jersey Boss

> Also noticed on that Destination Norman map that Del Taco is going in North of Walgreens on 12th


A Chick Fillet is also going in next to that Walgreens.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Anyone know a time frame on La Madeleine? 
> 
> Also noticed on that Destination Norman map that Del Taco is going in North of Walgreens on 12th



La Madeleine's is under construction (build out) in the new section just completed near Academy. It is in the west (well, northwest-most) end of the new structure. They've really only done floor breakout and added some plumbing from what I can tell. The only way I could even tell this was the LaMadeleine's was because the business card for the manager of the Tulsa location was taped to the glass with all the construction/trades. 

REALLY pleased to see this happen!

----------


## Bunty

> Also the most exciting news I have today is the Destination Norman map is showing a Longhorn steakhouse in the Sooner Mall parking lot SE of Sears. I drove by this weekend and they had it fenced off and was doing dirtwork.  I'm excited about this one!


Why the excitement?  Is Longhorn any better than Texas Roadhouse?

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Why the excitement?  Is Longhorn any better than Texas Roadhouse?


Oh boy a Longhorn Steakhouse..... Still hoping that Ranch steakhouse goes in UTC.

----------


## macfoucin

> Why the excitement?  Is Longhorn any better than Texas Roadhouse?


It is in my opinion. Also is much closer to my house than Texas Roadhouse.

----------


## macfoucin

http://www.normantranscript.com/news...d3338481a.html

This article says Big Daddy's Burger Bar is going in by Torchy's Tacos where World of Beer was supposed to go.

----------


## rcjunkie

> http://www.normantranscript.com/news...d3338481a.html
> 
> This article says Big Daddy's Burger Bar is going in by Torchy's Tacos where World of Beer was supposed to go.


Just what we need, another burger joint, however, if Panda Grill (burgers and tacos) would open in Norman, I would be one happy customer.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

I wonder if that is Toby Keith place.

----------


## soonermike81

Anybody know what's up with La Madeleine's? I thought I saw a few weeks ago that their channel letters were up. Drove by recently and it's gone. Is this place still happening?

----------


## Robert_M

> Destination Norman data is showing submitted application for permits for Carmax just North of Chuck E Cheeses.


Plans are out for the Carmax location in Norman.  Address is listed as 2351 Interstate Drive which Google shows to be just West of Chuck E Cheeses however plans show it to be Just East of Interstate Drive off of Rock Creek.  Satellite shows there is already a curb cut there for the entrance for anyone familiar with the area.

----------


## bige4ou

http://www.normantranscript.com/news...6c571a12c.html

----------


## Dustin

^^ Wow, that's really cool.  Hope it turns out like what's pictured.

----------


## HangryHippo

My preference is to see it back on campus, but if thats out, I think this proposal kicks ass!

----------


## Pete

My first reaction was completely negative.

BUT, LNC is completely disconnected from campus to the point you just drive in, go to the game, then leave.

UNP would allow people to go to restaurants and bars before and after, there would be adjacent hotels for visitors and other events and the whole thing is at least 15 minutes closer to most the people who attend, coming from OKC.

Would be a drag for the students, however. 

OU actually owns the land for UNP and gets a cut from the entire development, and I suppose they would not have to come up with the money to build this facility, just likely pay a reasonable rent.

I'm starting to think this might be a brilliant idea.

----------


## bige4ou

http://www.oudaily.com/sports/oklaho...96c530d6d.html

The plan in great detail. This could be amazing!

----------


## Pete



----------


## jccouger

"multi prupose arena" kind of scares me because thats what makes the lloyd noble center such a bland environment for a basketball game. 
OU needs an arena that is specifically built for Basketball games that puts the crowd right on top of the court. 

Otherwise, this entire development is so freaking big league. If it plays out exactly as planned I can't think of a better area in the entire metro area.

----------


## jccouger

The same people behind this proposal are the people who will be doing the COOP area in downtown OKC correct? That gives me high hopes for that development as well.

----------


## Roger S

I love this idea but why only 10,000 seats if they want to host NCAA events? 

LNC currently seats 11,652. Cheaspeake seats 18,203 for basketball.... This arena needs to seat a number somewhere between those two.... I would say 12,000 to 15,000 seats would be ideal.

----------


## jn1780

> "multi prupose arena" kind of scares me because thats what makes the lloyd noble center such a bland environment for a basketball game. 
> OU needs an arena that is specifically built for Basketball games that puts the crowd right on top of the court. 
> 
> Otherwise, this entire development is so freaking big league. If it plays out exactly as planned I can't think of a better area in the entire metro area.


Isn't most arenas multipurpose with basketball primarily in mind?  The fact that this one is smaller already suggests its better suited for basketball.

----------


## Pete

> The same people behind this proposal are the people who will be doing the COOP area in downtown OKC correct? That gives me high hopes for that development as well.


Yes.  Sooner Investments.

They do first quality work.

----------


## Jersey Boss

The  seating for this proposed facility is woefully inadequate. When comparing Big 12 schools, one finds that only one school has 10,000 or less capacity , that being TCU with a paltry 8,500. Looking at the other schools they range from a high of 16,734 for Texas, 16,300-KU, 15,020- TT, 14,384-ISU, 14,000-WVU, 13,611-OSU, 12,528-KSU, 11,528-OU, 10,284-BU, and 8,500 TCU. OU needs and deserves a BB facility that is designed for BB and not as another poster noted, a multi-purpose facility like the LNC is presently.  Basing my opinion on seating and removing it from campus,  I find it lacking .

----------


## Pete

I suppose that before OU would seriously consider the move they would insist on upping the capacity to around 12,000.

Without that, no way you get NCAA tourney games and some other events.

----------


## Jersey Boss

Even at 12K it would still be in the lower 33% of the league. 15k should be the bare minimum for the flag ship state university.

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## HangryHippo

> Even at 12K it would still be in the lower 33% of the league. 15k should be the bare minimum for the flag ship state university.


You need to realistically look at actual attendance for OU basketball events. The capacity youre wanting would be way too much.

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## BG918

Not a fan of having this so far-removed from campus.  Leave UNP for apartments and strip malls.

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## riflesforwatie

> You need to realistically look at actual attendance for OU basketball events. The capacity youre wanting would be way too much.


Agreed.

Look at OSU's problems since the Thunder came to Oklahoma. Their arena is full maybe once a season. Maybe. At OU, we did okay in attendance the Final Four year but outside that, the athletic department has basically been begging students to attend games. (Those free pizza promotions were a pretty good deal as a struggling grad student, though.)

This development is cool but I'd rather see an intimate on-campus basketball arena.

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## dankrutka

If OU is building a new arena that will primarily be used for OU basketball games then it should be at about 8,000 seats... maybe even 7,000 or 7,500. The Lloyd Noble Center has had a depressing number of vacant seats for the last 10 years. For the overall experience, it's always better to build a slighly too small rather than too big. If OU wants to compete with the Thunder and better experiences watching games at home then they need to create an intimate environment with some energy. Honestly, if I was choosing, I'd go with a 7,000 seat arena. 

On the whole, I really dislike the entire University Town Center area. It's just a poorly designed sprawled out shopping center. If this area had been built as promised then I could see this being attractive, but what's there now is disappointing and may not age well. I'd far rather OU work with private developers to find land near campus (e.g., research campus area, parking lot east of the football stadium, Lloyd Noble site) for such a development.

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## dankrutka

> You need to realistically look at actual attendance for OU basketball events. The capacity you’re wanting would be way too much.


+1

A 12,000 seat venue for OU basketball games would be really terrible. OU regularly draws 5,000 fans for nonconference games. It would feel completely empty in a 12,000 seat arena.

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## riflesforwatie

> On the whole, I really dislike the entire University Town Center area. It's just a poorly designed sprawled out shopping center. If this area had been built as promised then I could see this being attractive, but what's there now is disappointing and may not age well. I'd far rather OU work with private developers to find land near campus (e.g., research campus area, parking lot east of the football stadium, Lloyd Noble site) for such a development.


Exactly this. Even if the northern half is built *exactly as promised*, it won't age well, because it will always be next to a bunch of suburban garbage. Plus, this fake urban center nonsense will never be able to achieve critical mass on its own because development in one direction will be restricted by the airport and in the other direction by I-35, which means that this will always be a car centric development. It doesn't fully appeal to the urbanism/walkability diehards and it doesn't appeal to the exurban 1.5 acre types either.

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## onthestrip

Agree with the seating capacity, college basketball isnt much of a draw. 10,000 is probably the right number. Plus, taking this even further off campus will draw even less students to games than now at Lloyd Noble.

Its interesting that OU and Norman is looking at this as a catalyst for development rather than from a basketball program standpoint. Just like the pros, money rules in college sports so who cares if this helps the program or more students attend more games as long as you can make more money off amateur athletes.

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## jn1780

I don't really see OU wanting to have basketball this far away from campus. Its the opposite of what colleges have been trying to accomplish.  Its not really an intimate atmosphere or student friendly.  Students who don't have a vehicle have to be provided transportation to the games.

And larger NCAA events would have a more greater chance of being hosted hosted in OKC. I don't see University Town Center ever being that great of an atmosphere even with a larger arena.

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## Richard at Remax

College basketball landscape has been changing for a while. Esp here with the Thunder. I personally think 10,000 is too much. I would really like something like the Reynolds Center at Tulsa which is around 8,300. That was a great place to watch basketball when I went there my freshman year.

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## Jersey Boss

I see a real disconnect here. Many embraced the building of the Ford Center with the logic of "build it and they will come".  Well we have a D1 program already in place and some are arguing for a venue  that rivals  TCU? I went to the Reynolds Center when OU played there a couple of years ago.  I have been to better high school gyms.

Average attendance for men's BB games in 2016 was 10K.  This is from 2016, a crappy season performance wise.
http://i.turner.ncaa.com/sites/defau...ance_final.pdf

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## dankrutka

Jersey Boss, first, that analogy doesn't work. OKC built an arena where a pro team could play when there was not one before. Also, there was no precedent for expectations since OKC had never had a pro team. On the other hand, OU has a ton of data on fan experience and it dramatically points to 12,000 seats being far, far too large. OSU built a huge arena that they can't even come close to filling up for 95% of their games. Remember when GIA was 6,000 seats and considered one of the best environments in college basketball. Well, OSU destroyed that by overexpanding their capacity. Also, I completely disagree with your assessment of TU's Reynold's Center, which is a fantastic arena that is far superior to Lloyd Noble. OU would be lucky to have something similar with some suites added in. Finally, if you think there were anywhere near 10,000 fans at any OU game all last season then I'll just tell you that there were not. OU inflates their numbers dramatically. Even when OU has been a top 5 team with the most exciting player in the nation with Blake Griffin and then Buddy Hield (pretty much best case scenarios), most games had empty seats.

----------


## BG918

> College basketball landscape has been changing for a while. Esp here with the Thunder. I personally think 10,000 is too much. I would really like something like the Reynolds Center at Tulsa which is around 8,300. That was a great place to watch basketball when I went there my freshman year.


Something like the Reynolds Center would be perfect, maybe slightly larger with some suites.  But not at UNP.  Stick with LNC or move on-campus, those should be the only options.

----------


## Rover

I am sure if they play at UNP there will be plenty of busses, trams, etc free to the students to go to games. Plus, there will be restaurants, bars, and lots of life at the arena where now is just dark parking lots.  Kids will want to hang out before and after games. Do you think kids want to walk to the LNC now?  After dark?  

Don't forget that there will be more attendees from OKC if located at UNP too...especially if it's in a lively entertainment district.

----------


## dankrutka

> Something like the Reynolds Center would be perfect, maybe slightly larger with some suites.  But not at UNP.  Stick with LNC or move on-campus, those should be the only options.


Absolutely. I'd love to see a new arena on the east side of the football stadium, but none of this makes much sense with how much money they've poured into the practice facilities attached to Lloyd Noble. Honestly, I'd rather see OU add mixed use student housing and restaurants, bars (could a private developer do this?), and offices around Lloyd Noble and then just reclad the arena, which would be in the middle of it all. Parking garages could replace the parking and then just add bike paths to the area.

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## Rover

Could not in 20 years create the energy that can immediately exist at UNP.

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## jn1780

Well, OU has officially announced that their interested. So I take back my earlier comment. 
http://newsok.com/university-of-okla...rticle/5564812

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## Pete

Even if OU does this, it could be like a 10-year lease which would allow them all types of options down the line.

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## traxx

> If this area had been built as promised then I could see this being attractive, but what's there now is disappointing and may not age well.


Yes to this. I feel like the public was sold a false bill of goods on UNP. I remember when discussion on this place began and the pictures showed a cool, walkable, unique place with new to market businesses. What we got was more strip malls with nail salons and tire centers that you can find pretty much anywhere in the OKC greater metro.

I do agree with Pete, though, that the LNC is so disconnected from campus and people have to drive there anyway that this concept, if built to be like what we're shown in the proposal, could be really cool. You'll almost assuredly get more attendance from people in OKC as it would be easier to get to. Hwy 9 is such a mess getting in and out of on game days and you're almost in Noble by the time you get there. This would be an easier in and out for people in OKC, Moore, Del City, Midwest City et al.

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## Pete

One of the reasons it's so hard to get in and out of OU basketball games is that everyone comes in at exactly the same time and leaves at exactly the same time.

If there was something to do before and after, that would be greatly staggered.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> One of the reasons it's so hard to get in and out of OU basketball games is that everyone comes in at exactly the same time and leaves at exactly the same time.
> 
> If there was something to do before and after, that would be greatly staggered.


Agreed. Football games really disperse people well and you end with with OK traffic even though 90,000 people just left an area.

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## Plutonic Panda

It appears they will help fund the planned interchange improvements at Tecumseh Rd.

A bit early but I'm guessing it will be built in multiple phases?

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## Jersey Boss

> Jersey Boss, first, that analogy doesn't work. OKC built an arena where a pro team could play when there was not one before. Also, there was no precedent for expectations since OKC had never had a pro team. On the other hand, OU has a ton of data on fan experience and it dramatically points to 12,000 seats being far, far too large. OSU built a huge arena that they can't even come close to filling up for 95% of their games. Remember when GIA was 6,000 seats and considered one of the best environments in college basketball. Well, OSU destroyed that by overexpanding their capacity. Also, I completely disagree with your assessment of TU's Reynold's Center, which is a fantastic arena that is far superior to Lloyd Noble. OU would be lucky to have something similar with some suites added in. Finally, if you think there were anywhere near 10,000 fans at any OU game all last season then I'll just tell you that there were not. OU inflates their numbers dramatically. Even when OU has been a top 5 team with the most exciting player in the nation with Blake Griffin and then Buddy Hield (pretty much best case scenarios), most games had empty seats.


I agree, poor analogy. While there were not anywhere near 10k fans at any game last year, it was not due to OU padding the numbers.  There is no doubt in my mind that the average game last year had 10k _paid_ tickets.  I go to 70-80% of the home BB games so I will agree with you on those in attendance. I do know several years ago that when buying football season tickets you could get better seats if you bought season BB tickets.  Many bought BB tickets with no intention of going to the games or only going to a couple choice match ups. I have had friends go with me to games and the only tickets available were in upper South or North. I myself sit in the lower bowl and I know where the seats are where no one comes to.  So the problem is in getting those who own the tickets to sell or give them away or lose the rights to them if they don't show for a certain % of games. I also agree that if the games are moved to UNP there will be an uptick of azzes in the seats. That uptick should be taken into consideration when and if this arena is being planned and built.

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## Jersey Boss

> Agreed. Football games really disperse people well and you end with with OK traffic even though 90,000 people just left an area.


Also helps when OU is administering a beat down and the fans disperse throughout the second half.

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## Laramie

OU needs a new arena with a capacity of 12,500 - 15,000 seats. 

If you're going to build an arena build something capable of hosting some  regional & national events.  Design it where 8,000 seats are readily available where 4,000 to 7,000 upper seats can be curtained or draped off when full capacity isn't needed. 



We can put these campus arenas to use for other sports like Volleyball, Wrestling, Gymnastics and Women's Basketball.

McCasland Field House


Lloyd Noble Center


If all you are going to build is a smaller arena, you may as well  keep Lloyd Noble Center and retrofit it to seat less than its current capacity.

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## BG918

Where else in the country is a university actively interested in moving their sports teams OFF campus?  The trend for many years has been to either enhance stadiums or arenas already on-campus or build new on-campus facilities.  Or like in Lincoln, NE partner with the city as part of a downtown arena project.  This is none of that.  College basketball is first and foremost for the STUDENTS and this location creates a major inconvenience for getting to/from games.

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## jn1780

> OU needs a new arena with a capacity of 12,500 - 15,000 seats. 
> 
> If you're going to build an arena build something capable of hosting some  regional & national events.  Design it where 8,000 seats are readily available where 4,000 to 7,000 upper seats can be curtained or draped off when full capacity isn't needed. 
> 
> 
> 
> We can put these campus arenas to use for other sports like Volleyball, Wrestling, Gymnastics and Women's Basketball.
> 
> McCasland Field House
> ...


OU would be footing cost to retrofit Lloyd Nobel Center, that's the thing.  Here, OU is just paying rent with the ability to leave in the future if it doesn't work out.   

A bigger arena would make sense depending on the other variables that the NCAA looks at when determining where to host events.  Hotel capacity in Norman isn't all that great and if people have to stay in OKC, why not just host the event at the Chesapeake.   

An arena that approaches the same size of the Chesapeake puts it in direct competition with it and OKC has been "building it so that they come" for almost two decades now. That's a lot for UNP to compete with.  There's a special niche size they have to find to make this work.

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## Pete

> Where else in the country is a university actively interested in moving their sports teams OFF campus?  The trend for many years has been to either enhance stadiums or arenas already on-campus or build new on-campus facilities.  Or like in Lincoln, NE partner with the city as part of a downtown arena project.  This is none of that.  College basketball is first and foremost for the STUDENTS and this location creates a major inconvenience for getting to/from games.


Actually, there are several colleges with arenas off-campus, including two big programs:  Louisville and Kentucky.


This new arena seems like an interesting idea.  I'd like to see a 10-year lease while OU evaluates renovating and expanding McCasland similar to what OSU did.

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## Urbanized

^^^^^^^
I like that idea. Of course, what to do with the new arena if OU abandons it 10 years down the road..?

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## bige4ou

> Actually, there are several colleges with arenas off-campus, including two big programs:  Louisville and Kentucky.
> 
> 
> This new arena seems like an interesting idea.  I'd like to see a 10-year lease while OU evaluates renovating and expanding McCasland similar to what OSU did.


As good of an idea as that is. It would never ever happen. There is no parking and no options to add such. As for a person that works for one of the OU teams that would use this arena I am very excited to see something actually in the works here. Students don't come to the game anyways so what does it matter moving off campus? I would argue that it might increase students coming to games because of the bar/restaurant options so close before and after games. I believe it will increase attendance a little as well since it will be much easier to access with other things to experience before and after.

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## BG918

> As good of an idea as that is. It would never ever happen. There is no parking and no options to add such. As for a person that works for one of the OU teams that would use this arena I am very excited to see something actually in the works here. Students don't come to the game anyways so what does it matter moving off campus? I would argue that it might increase students coming to games because of the bar/restaurant options so close before and after games. I believe it will increase attendance a little as well since it will be much easier to access with other things to experience before and after.


That's the biggest problem with this proposal.  It's basically saying a big F U to the students, we don't care about you all we want is families who will drive to the games from Moore, OKC and Edmond.  That's probably the core demographic and yes that would make it easier for those people.  Which is fine if this is a professional team but these are college sports played by student-athletes.   

And comparing this to Louisville and Kentucky is apples and oranges.  First of all those are blue blood basketball programs and their arenas are in their respective downtown cores and shared by the city because they consistently attract 15-20K.  What other program in the past 10 years has purposely built a new athletics facility off-campus??  

If "on-campus" arena isn't an option then a move to near downtown Norman that would still be within walking distance of campus and Campus Corner would be preferable.  Redevelop the municipal complex and library into an arena/conference center, add a hotel and spur new restaurant/entertainment development on the west side of downtown Norman which hasn't seen the same renewal as the east side.  You would then have direct access to the future commuter rail line and it's all on land the city already owns.

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## Pete

I somewhat agree about the students but they all pretty much have to drive anyway.

I went to every single home game as a student and always drove or rode with someone who did.

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## Roger S

Unfortunately OU has one of the worst student sections for basketball in the country. So the "All Students Matter" argument doesn't really carry much weight here in my opinion. 

They already don't come to the games so moving the stadium further away isn't going to exacerbate that issue..... On the other hand. Any time I've been to Torchy's there are plenty of students there.... Maybe more than I've ever seen at a ball game (Yes, that is sarcasm)..... So if they will drive to Torchy's. Maybe they'll show up for a game and go to Torchy's before or after the game.

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## riflesforwatie

> Actually, there are several colleges with arenas off-campus, including two big programs:  Louisville and Kentucky.
> 
> 
> This new arena seems like an interesting idea.  I'd like to see a 10-year lease while OU evaluates renovating and expanding McCasland similar to what OSU did.


http://deadspin.com/louisvilles-aren...ter-1797126730

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## Urbanized

^^^^^^
A recommendation for the MAPS model for large municipal capital projects.

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## riflesforwatie

I work across from LNC (including many evenings). Basketball traffic is slightly (and I mean slightly) worse than standard southbound Jenkins Ave. traffic during an average weekday rush hour. Traffic for basketball games is just not close to that experienced after football games.

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## riflesforwatie

> ^^^^^^
> A recommendation for the MAPS model for large municipal capital projects.


I agree that it's better than having the arena authority (or whomever) come back after the fact and ask for money. But under either financing model I'd still want the arena proposal to make sense for the community...

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## riflesforwatie

Pete, I love the idea of expanding McCasland (if possible). But I don't understand why OU would still want to move to this new arena for ten years and then move back to campus. Why not just stay at LNC while the planning/design/fundraising on a potential McCasland project went forward?

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## Pete

> Pete, I love the idea of expanding McCasland (if possible). But I don't understand why OU would still want to move to this new arena for ten years and then move back to campus. Why not just stay at LNC while the planning/design/fundraising on a potential McCasland project went forward?


To get a brand new facility, a better basketball environment, probably more revenue through suites and to see how attendance responds.

I really don't think there is any hope for an on-campus facility and although I've probably been to more hoops games at LNC than anyone on this site (including BoulderSooner!) it is a soulless place that might as well be on Mars as it is set in a sea of parking with no connection to the campus.

Why not have someone else pay for a shiny new home rather than pay for it yourself at LNC and still be in the middle of nowhere?

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## BG918

> To get a brand new facility, a better basketball environment, probably more revenue through suites and to see how attendance responds.
> 
> I really don't think there is any hope for an on-campus facility and although I've probably been to more hoops games at LNC than anyone on this site (including BoulderSooner!) it is a soulless place that might as well be on Mars as it is set in a sea of parking with no connection to the campus.
> 
> Why not have someone else pay for a shiny new home rather than pay for it yourself at LNC and still be in the middle of nowhere?


The problem with that would be what does Norman do with the arena when the lease with OU runs out?  OU still has LNC that it plans to keep using for gymnastics (maybe a couple thousand people per meet) and other events.  And there are relatively new basketball practice facilities there that I imagine won't be duplicated somewhere else.  Plus you have McCasland for wrestling and volleyball.  It just seems like a big waste to have everything so scattered.  OU doesn't need THREE arenas for its sports programs.

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## riflesforwatie

Those are good points, Pete. I now better understand what you meant.

BG - that's also a good question. SpiritBank Arena in Bixby may be a cautionary tale here: http://www.tulsaworld.com/businessho...43208b23c.html

(Article is from 2014, not sure if things have improved since then. Also, SpiritBank Arena is much smaller than this proposed UNP facility would be.)

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## FighttheGoodFight

> To get a brand new facility, a better basketball environment, probably more revenue through suites and to see how attendance responds.
> 
> I really don't think there is any hope for an on-campus facility and although I've probably been to more hoops games at LNC than anyone on this site (including BoulderSooner!) it is a soulless place that might as well be on Mars as it is set in a sea of parking with no connection to the campus.
> 
> Why not have someone else pay for a shiny new home rather than pay for it yourself at LNC and still be in the middle of nowhere?


More students park at LNC to free shuttle to class than they do during basketball games. That says something.

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## Swake

> Those are good points, Pete. I now better understand what you meant.
> 
> BG - that's also a good question. SpiritBank Arena in Bixby may be a cautionary tale here: http://www.tulsaworld.com/businessho...43208b23c.html
> 
> (Article is from 2014, not sure if things have improved since then. Also, SpiritBank Arena is much smaller than this proposed UNP facility would be.)


SpiritBank is still closed. The shopping center surrounding it is fine, but the arena is not used. I think it seats 5-6,000. 

It was built too cheaply. The backing is just metal cladding and the sound went right through the wall to the expensive houses behind who were suing about the noise. I'm not sure that building is usable without millions in changes and Tulsa already has so many arenas that size and larger.

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## BG918

Case Study: Auburn University used to have an arena similar to LNC...ugly concrete bunker surrounded by parking:


They built a new 9600 seat *on-campus* in 2010 that integrates into a new student housing neighborhood:


The result was a basketball-only arena that fit in with the architectural vernacular of the AU campus and is easily accessible by students.  Parking is shared with the other athletic facilities including the football stadium.

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## Laramie

So true, Tulsa & Oklahoma City areas are saturated with a number of facilities:

Tulsa indoor arenas & centers:

BOK Center - 17,839 seats
Mabee Center - 11,300-seats
Reynolds Center - 8,355-seats 
Cox Convention Center formerly Tulsa Assembly Center  - 7,200 seats
SpiritBank Event Center - 4,500 seats
Union High School Arena -  2,934 seats
Jenks High School Field House - 2,400 seats
Oklahoma City indoor arenas & centers:

Chesapeake Energy Arena - 18,203 seats
Cox Convention Center Arena - 13,846 seats
Lloyd Noble Center - 11,562 seats
Jim Norick Arena - 8,500 seats
McCasland Field House - 5,000 seats
Abe Lemons Arena (OCU) - 3,500. seats
Hamilton Field House (UCO) - 3,000 seats
Yukon, Moore, Del City, Midwest City all have indoor facilities with seating capacities in the 3,000 - 3,750 seat range.
Basketball seating capacities.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> OU would be footing cost to retrofit Lloyd Nobel Center, that's the thing.  Here, OU is just paying rent with the ability to leave in the future if it doesn't work out.   
> 
> A bigger arena would make sense depending on the other variables that the NCAA looks at when determining where to host events.  Hotel capacity in Norman isn't all that great and if people have to stay in OKC, why not just host the event at the Chesapeake.   
> 
> An arena that approaches the same size of the Chesapeake puts it in direct competition with it and OKC has been "building it so that they come" for almost two decades now. That's a lot for UNP to compete with.  There's a special niche size they have to find to make this work.


I am now thinking this might be a better idea than rebuilding the LNC. I also agree with Laramie that it needs to be between 12.5-15k. Norman has more hotel space than you realize. Keep in mind that Norman easily accomadates home football crowds that go to the largest stadium in the state. The Postal Training Center facility(open to the general public) that is operated by Marriott has over 900 rooms alone. If Norman can accommodate the crowds for home football, it can easily accommodate 15k basketball fans without even going to Moore, let alone OKC.

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## shawnw

I'm under the impression that OU Ice Hockey doesn't have their own facility and uses the Blazers rink by crossroads?  Seems like this would be a good opportunity to bring the hockey back to Norman at least.

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## Roger S

> I'm under the impression that OU Ice Hockey doesn't have their own facility and uses the Blazers rink by crossroads?  Seems like this would be a good opportunity to bring the hockey back to Norman at least.


That is true. First home game of the season is tonight at 9 PM at the Blazers Center..... Being a club team I'm not sure they could afford to move to this new arena.... that and they only regularly draw about 100 people to their games.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> That is true. First home game of the season is tonight at 9 PM at the Blazers Center..... Being a club team I'm not sure they could afford to move to this new arena.... that and they only regularly draw about 100 people to their games.


Correct. It isn't an "official" OU sport so I am guessing their funding is very low and getting 10k people to come to see them would be a feat.

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## Roger S

> Correct. It isn't an "official" OU sport so I am guessing their funding is very low and getting 10k people to come to see them would be a feat.


Pretty sure all funding is done by fundraising. I don't think the school offers any financial help for the team.

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## Laramie

You might see an impressive team if they were to use a campus facility with its own ice plant.  Ice hockey's future at OU could change with an official move to D-I ice hockey which would attract more recruits.   

What would be the cost to totally retrofit Lloyd Noble Center with a rink and add an upper deck & a new roof

*OR*

OU could co-develop the University Town Center Arena project; it would probably be a lot less expensive to build a new arena from the ground up?


Something similar to Magness Arena (University of Denver) with *twice the current seating*:  Magness Arena is used for basketball & ice hockey--Home of the DU men and women's basketball and hockey teams:

Features 6,026 theater-style seats for hockey, 7,200 for basketball and 8,000 for concerts
Three-time site of the NCAA North Central Region Gymnastics Championships and first round site of the 2007 Sun Belt Conference Women's Basketball Championship.

A 12,500 - 15,000 seat arena would attract some NCAA regional & national events;  Norman would be an ideal location to accommodate crowds much like the WCWS in OKC.

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## Roger S

> You might see an impressive team if they were to use a campus facility with its own ice plant.  Ice hockey's future at OU could change with an official move to D-I ice hockey which would attract more recruits.


As much as I would love for it to happen... I just don't see it happening.

Team is usually pretty good regardless.... Lots of new faces on the team this year and they are off to a slow start, tonight doesn't get any easier, but they have consistently been a Top 10 team in the division they play in..... And amazingly they get a lot of kids to come down from Canada to play for them.

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## Questor

> I really don't think there is any hope for an on-campus facility and although I've probably been to more hoops games at LNC than anyone on this site (including BoulderSooner!) it is a soulless place that might as well be on Mars as it is set in a sea of parking with no connection to the campus.


Yeah, same opinion of LNC... it's just sort of on its own, surrounded by a giant parking lot... you get inside and the place feels very dated, you get out to the seats and it just feels dark and dingy... and then for almost all the events they have there the number of people vs. the size of the place makes it feel depressingly desolate....

It'll be really interesting to see how the UNP arena is developed.  If it ends up being a nice bright, modern, open place that is correctly right-sized I think it could be a really nice addition to the city of Norman.  I am also very excited about the idea of having massive amounts of walkable restaurant and other entertainment space surrounding it, rather than parking.

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## dankrutka

What about surrounding the edges of that parking lot with mixed use student housing and putting up garages to replace lost parking? Maybe that's a pipe dream, but then it could bring life to the area and the arena facade would become far less important.

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## jdross1982

There are several issues with the arena itself. 1st it is a multi use building in every sense of the word which leads to terrible seating for basketball. 2. there is no suites and the concourse is terrible. 3. The facade is a major detractor which could be updated and corrected. Overall the minimum investment by the university is 60 million to overhaul the arena and that is a starting number. What you are speaking of (mixed use buildings developed around the arena) would require additional outside investment similar to the development the University is already pairing with up the road. The only way the UNP arena does not get built is if the TIF is not approved but I don't see that happening.

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## PhiAlpha

> There are several issues with the arena itself. 1st it is a multi use building in every sense of the word which leads to terrible seating for basketball. 2. there is no suites and the concourse is terrible. 3. The facade is a major detractor which could be updated and corrected. Overall the minimum investment by the university is 60 million to overhaul the arena and that is a starting number. What you are speaking of (mixed use buildings developed around the arena) would require additional outside investment similar to the development the University is already pairing with up the road. The only way the UNP arena does not get built is if the TIF is not approved but I don't see that happening.


Yeah while the lack of entertainment options (or anything) near LNC is annoying and the building itself is ugly, my biggest complaint is the basketball game experience. It's just completely lackluster and as you mention, it has a lot to do with the arena design.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Something not related to the Event Center.

La Madeleine's sign is now up next to McAllisters.

----------


## soonermike81

> Something not related to the Event Center.
> 
> La Madeleine's sign is now up next to McAllisters.


I swear I had seen it up several weeks back. But then drove back by and it was gone. Am I crazy?

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> I swear I had seen it up several weeks back. But then drove back by and it was gone. Am I crazy?


I was there on Sunday and it was up?

----------


## soonermike81

> I was there on Sunday and it was up?


 I believe you that it is currently up. I was just wondering if anyone else had seen it up several weeks back, then removed shortly after. Maybe I just saw a banner or something.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> I believe you that it is currently up. I was just wondering if anyone else had seen it up several weeks back, then removed shortly after. Maybe I just saw a banner or something.


Not sure. This was actual signage put onto the stone. I haven't been by that area in several weeks so I am not 100%. The inside did not look to be close to done. No information I can find online yet either.

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## FighttheGoodFight

I believe La Madeleine is now open.

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## mattjank

Saw this morning construction fence was up with PDQ coming soon sign. In the field just north of Tuckers.

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## _Cramer_

Yes it is.

I saw dirt work happening south of Rock Creek. Is this the location of the Carmax?

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Yes it is.
> 
> I saw dirt work happening south of Rock Creek. Is this the location of the Carmax?


Yep. Should be.

----------


## warreng88

OU arena still has to jump through a few hoops

By: Molly M. Fleming  The Journal Record	February 22, 2018

OKLAHOMA CITY  There are still several steps before the University of Oklahoma will have a new basketball arena along Interstate 35.

The university has been working with CallisonRTKL on a master plan for the land north of Rock Creek Road, along I-35 and south of W. Tecumseh Road. Part of the plan includes an entertainment district, with 150,000 square feet of restaurants and other venues, 100,000 square feet of office, a 225-room hotel, a 40,000-square-foot expo center, and a 10,000-seat basketball arena. But the site is in an existing tax increment finance district, which was created in 2006. That TIF district doesnt include an arena or an expo center.

Norman City Attorney Jeff Bryant said the City Council would have to amend the existing TIF district to allow the change. The land south of Rock Creek includes hotels, retailers, and restaurants, but the northern lands financing was for office, multifamily, and light industrial. If the city wanted to move forward with the arena, the TIF amount would have to be updated as well. The 2006 TIF was for $54.75 million. He said proposals for the additional tax increment money are between $50 million and $90 million. Additionally, the sites planned unit development would need an update. Bryant said the TIF or PUD are not on any agendas at this time.

Center for Economic Development Law attorney Dan Batchelor has been working with CallisonRTKL on the TIF side. He said the firm is still evaluating the financing options.

We see the potential for a wide-ranging set of opportunities here, he said. It could surely have a huge, potential positive impact for the city of Norman, but the nature and shape (of the project) requires a lot more careful consideration.

CallisonRTKLs Jeff Gunning gave a presentation about the entire development at the Commercial Real Estate Councils annual forecast event, held Thursday in downtown Oklahoma City.

He showed single-family housing and multifamily, along with more office space on the 250-acre site. He said CallisonRTKL had been working with the foundation since 2000. He called the $140 million arena a catalyst for the entertainment area.

Gunning said Thursday that the University of Oklahoma was not yet 100 percent behind the project.

They do want the arena there, he said. The athletic department wants it. Theres more proving out to be done.

The entertainment district will be more focused on restaurants than stores, he said. There are plenty of stores on the south side of Rock Creek Road.

He said the next step is to bring in a master developer who could bring more developers to help with the project.

Norman Economic Development Coalition President and CEO Jason Smith said his board of directors sees the potential district as a way to keep young professionals in the city. He said young people are flocking to amenity-rich environments, so this could add to the citys amenity options.

----------


## Urbanized

Man, I really don't understand this whole arena thing.

----------


## dankrutka

> Man, I really don't understand this whole arena thing.


It's really baffling. OU has done such a tremendous job of growing the campus. To build an arena in this area that is poorly designed and bound to decay over time, is so strange. Don't you want students to be able to walk over to games?

----------


## Roger S

> It's really baffling. OU has done such a tremendous job of growing the campus. To build an arena in this area that is poorly designed and bound to decay over time, is so strange. Don't you want students to be able to walk over to games?


OU has the worst student section in the Big XII... I don't think moving the arena is going to make that any worse.

Heck... I almost see more students at the OU Hockey games than I ever saw when I was a season basketball ticket holder..... Ok... I might be exaggerating just slightly but I do see them at the hockey games at the Blazers Ice Center.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> It's really baffling. OU has done such a tremendous job of growing the campus. To build an arena in this area that is poorly designed and bound to decay over time, is so strange. Don't you want students to be able to walk over to games?


They don't walk now. For that matter they don't come by any means of conveyance. The thinking is more fans will come if there are more options before and after games. That in addition to easier access for those coming from the City. I have gone to all but one home game this year and I am speaking from first hand experience.

----------


## dankrutka

Of course students don’t walk to Lloyd Noble. That’s why they should actually build the arena on campus. The parking lot east of the football stadium and next to the track field would be a great location.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Of course students don’t walk to Lloyd Noble. That’s why they should actually build the arena on campus. The parking lot east of the football stadium and next to the track field would be a great location.


Lnc is on campus

----------


## BG918

> Of course students don’t walk to Lloyd Noble. That’s why they should actually build the arena on campus. The parking lot east of the football stadium and next to the track field would be a great location.


I've been saying this for years.  Better to concentrate all of the athletic facilities in one area than have them all over the place.  It would also be great for on-campus events.

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## Pete

I become to believe that this new site would be a good 10 to 15-year solution while the school tries to come up with a good on-campus plan.

I also very strongly believe that TIF (tax) dollars should not be funding this.

----------


## BG918

> I become to believe that this new site would be a good 10 to 15-year solution while the school tries to come up with a good on-campus plan.
> 
> I also very strongly believe that TIF (tax) dollars should not be funding this.


What does the city do with the arena if/when OU decides to move back to campus?  Does it become solely a concert or events venue?  Does Norman have a need for a 8-10k seat venue?  

A good case study for Norman to look at is Spirit Bank Arena in Bixby and how well it's doing..

http://www.tulsaworld.com/businessho...43208b23c.html

----------


## Pete

The arena would be owned by the private developer and I'm sure they would have a lease agreement with OU (and likely others) for an extended period which would probably come close to paying it off.

By then, even occasional use would be enough to keep it afloat.

----------


## Jersey Boss

I took some time before coming on board with moving the basketball arena, but came to believe the upsides outweighed staying at the LNC. An article in today's paper took a look at the non action since the arena plans were announced. Also an examination of TIF both the proposed and existing one are discussed. A must read for Normanites.
http://www.normantranscript.com/news...266aa0b96.html

----------


## Jersey Boss

> What does the city do with the arena if/when OU decides to move back to campus?  Does it become solely a concert or events venue?  Does Norman have a need for a 8-10k seat venue?  
> 
> A good case study for Norman to look at is Spirit Bank Arena in Bixby and how well it's doing..
> 
> http://www.tulsaworld.com/businessho...43208b23c.html


Comparing a town of 25k to Norman? I think Norman could quite easily use this  arena for concerts, high school athletic events, govt./corporate bookings.

----------


## dankrutka

> Lnc is on campus


You know what I mean. LNC is completely disconnected from the main campus. Not many students will ever  make the long walk to the LNC because of its unwalkability — it’s not useful, safe, comfortable, or interesting (see Speck’s definition).

----------


## BG918

> Comparing a town of 25k to Norman? I think Norman could quite easily use this  arena for concerts, high school athletic events, govt./corporate bookings.


101st & Memorial in Bixby is adjacent to Tulsa and has over 400k people in a 10 mile radius.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> Of course students don’t walk to Lloyd Noble. That’s why they should actually build the arena on campus. The parking lot east of the football stadium and next to the track field would be a great location.


Real world experience of attending games and living here for 40 years leaves me skeptical of this idea. Student attendance at football games has been on the decline for years as well as for basketball. Basketball season runs through some of the coldest months in Oklahoma, and to think students will walk there because it is "safe and interesting" is wishful thinking. There are less and less students walking to the football stadium.   There is no comfort in 30 degree weather for an 8 pm Tuesday night game.  I really believe that you need to market the games more for the greater fan base than to locate the arena where a couple thousand (at best) might come. 
If you move it off campus, the adults in attendance can enjoy an adult beverage as well ( fan friendly amenity).

----------


## Pete

^

Not mention that their largest fanbase is in OKC and that move would shave a good chunk of time and hassle out of the trip.

I would certainly go more and I went to almost every single home game as a student and had season tickets for a long time after.  I have zero affection for LNC and it just sits in a sea of asphalt with no connection to anything.  Plus the facility itself is not purpose built for basketball and having gone to the newish 10K arena at USC, the difference is absolutely stunning and better in every possible way.

----------


## Eric

> 101st & Memorial in Bixby is adjacent to Tulsa and has over 400k people in a 10 mile radius.


And that population is rather affluent as well.

It is in the epicenter or the boomingest part of Tulsa at the moment. South Memorial in Tulsa is unrecognizable compared to just 10 years ago. I personally remember going to Starworld Theater when it was "out in the country".

----------


## HangryHippo

> Not mention that their largest fanbase is in OKC and that move would shave a good chunk of time and hassle out of the trip.


This would make a huge difference for me and my friends.  Plus, LNC just sucks.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> ^
> 
> Not mention that their largest fanbase is in OKC and that move would shave a good chunk of time and hassle out of the trip.


Even for the student population, most students do not live on the campus itself.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Real world experience of attending games and living here for 40 years leaves me skeptical of this idea. Student attendance at football games has been on the decline for years as well as for basketball. Basketball season runs through some of the coldest months in Oklahoma, and to think students will walk there because it is "safe and interesting" is wishful thinking. There are less and less students walking to the football stadium.   There is no comfort in 30 degree weather for an 8 pm Tuesday night game.  I really believe that you need to market the games more for the greater fan base than to locate the arena where a couple thousand (at best) might come. 
> If you move it off campus, the adults in attendance can enjoy an adult beverage as well ( fan friendly amenity).


Regardless it’s part of the school and the students should have the option of walking to buildings and areas that are made more walkable. Real world experience currently tells me most students at universities want to walk and bikers,  not drive to, buildings on campus or that should be on campus.

----------


## dankrutka

> Real world experience of attending games and living here for 40 years leaves me skeptical of this idea. Student attendance at football games has been on the decline for years as well as for basketball. Basketball season runs through some of the coldest months in Oklahoma, and to think students will walk there because it is "safe and interesting" is wishful thinking. There are less and less students walking to the football stadium.   There is no comfort in 30 degree weather for an 8 pm Tuesday night game.  I really believe that you need to market the games more for the greater fan base than to locate the arena where a couple thousand (at best) might come. 
> If you move it off campus, the adults in attendance can enjoy an adult beverage as well ( fan friendly amenity).


My real world experience contradicts yours as I walked to every football home game between 2000-2011 wherever I lived in Norman (save one year out of Norman) and never walked to a single basketball game. Every football game day I see hundreds of people walking from all over. Yes, I do think tons of people will talk to games. It's not going to happen in Norman between the main campus and the LNC, but all evidence suggests that tempeture does not dissuade people from walking/biking in actual walkable environments. Tons of cold places on earth have huge numbers of pedestrian and bike commuters. It's all about building it. Anyway, I do think an on campus basketball arena would help bring more students to games. Just my opinion.

----------


## macfoucin

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7181a...c1b154140c.pdf here is the master plan from www.universitynorthpark.com

----------


## macfoucin

^ not sure if there is any new info here

----------


## jonny d

I love seeing that the Town Center is under development...yeah, since 2008!

----------


## Pete

They are really lobbying for a big TIF to fund the arena in their proposed Entertainment District.

This would be on top of the TIF they already have for that entire development.

----------


## onthestrip

> My real world experience contradicts yours as I walked to every football home game between 2000-2011 wherever I lived in Norman (save one year out of Norman) and never walked to a single basketball game. Every football game day I see hundreds of people walking from all over. Yes, I do think tons of people will talk to games. It's not going to happen in Norman between the main campus and the LNC, but all evidence suggests that tempeture does not dissuade people from walking/biking in actual walkable environments. Tons of cold places on earth have huge numbers of pedestrian and bike commuters. It's all about building it. *Anyway, I do think an on campus basketball arena would help bring more students to games. Just my opinion.*


This is obvious imo. Im sure if you looked at all D1 schools that have on campus arenas vs off campus and their attendance, on campus would be higher. And hard to measure but the tougher playing environments have to be from on campus arenas that have solid student fan attendance.




> They are really lobbying for a big TIF to fund the arena in their proposed Entertainment District.
> 
> This would be on top of the TIF they already have for that entire development.


Why bother with a fund raising campaign or raising student fees again when you can just have local taxpayers pick up the tab without their say so.

----------


## Pete

A reminder that a key requirement of any TIF district in Oklahoma as set by law is that the area be 'blighted'.

As you can see, we have completely bastardized that stipulation and intent over and over again.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> A reminder that a key requirement of any TIF district in Oklahoma as set by law is that the area be 'blighted'.
> 
> As you can see, we have completely bastardized that stipulation and intent over and over again.


Where is that requirement in the statute?

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Noticing a lot of signs around town for "Yes! UNP!" and "Stop TIF for UNP. Balance the Budget."

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## mattjank

> Noticing a lot of signs around town for "Yes! UNP!" and "Stop TIF for UNP. Balance the Budget."


I'm sure its a done deal. Really wish the city would pump the brakes on this. It seems like more of the same. Looking back at what was promised and what has been delivered is so disappointing. No reason this is not going to turn out the same way.

----------


## Rover

UNP seems like from a commercial standpoint it has been very successful.  I know the hard urbanists here would rather there be no parking and it look like a 1940 downtown, but the truth is that you can spend all day there and for the most part walk and shop the whole time.  For being in a city of 100,000 people, it always seems very busy.  And they keep adding national brands new to OK, or OKC, especially eating establishments.   It seems like a great spot to add the entertainment module with a mid-sized arena.

----------


## OUman

^On the weekends, it's almost too busy. I went to get some carryout at Torchy's one weekend a few months back and traffic was pretty bad. Looked like Austin. I actually saved time by heading north to Tecumseh, then heading back south on Flood on my way home. Just as an aside, I think the 2015 estimate of Norman's population is over 120,000 now.

I have heard and read though that Norman serves as a shopping stop for the smaller communities surrounding it, especially on the southern sides - Noble, Goldsby, Washington, Little Axe and Purcell, among others. This might explain some of the weekend influx of traffic, especially on the weekends.

----------


## Ross MacLochness

fwiw, you could fit way more people and stores there if it was a truly walkable people place.  I don't think any urbanist type would say that UTC is not successful, but boy could it have been a better/more profitable experience if it had been designed better.

----------


## Pete

The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.

----------


## jonny d

> The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.


If it had been built 5 years previous, it would have been built as promised, I believe. They just have the town center in the master plan. The economic recession and oil price drop hurt this development a lot.

----------


## Pete

Right, but the effect is still the same.

One huge problem with these sorts of subsidies is that they are very unfair to competitors.

----------


## soonermike81

Going slightly off-topic, but has anyone else seen the CarMax being constructed in the area? Seems like a much smaller footprint than all the Carmax locations I’ve seen. Is this something that they are doing for new locations going forward?

----------


## mattjank

> If it had been built 5 years previous, it would have been built as promised, I believe. They just have the town center in the master plan. The economic recession and oil price drop hurt this development a lot.


Then the Foundation should at least admit that this is the same situation. The economic numbers presented by the Foundation seem to be super inflated. They assume that all new residents to the area will be 1) new to Norman, and 2) have an income 33% greater than the current average income. Even if its built as stated, which I believe is highly unlikely given the track record, I have no doubt it will continue to poach existing businesses. If housing is actually completed this time, I have no doubt those will also poach from the rest of Norman as well, and not be new to the city.

----------


## Pete

^

Right, the underlying assumptions of the benefits of subsidies are rarely challenged and often put forth in glossy presentations that frequently provide only one side and are based on premises that cannot be proven.

And communities often employ full-time economic development staff who have every motivation to get such incentives passed.  Makes them look good in their job and doesn't cost them anything.  IMO, it's a fundamentally flawed approach which is why I write about it so much.

----------


## Rover

> fwiw, you could fit way more people and stores there if it was a truly walkable people place.  I don't think any urbanist type would say that UTC is not successful, but boy could it have been a better/more profitable experience if it had been designed better.


More profitable how?

----------


## Rover

> The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.


 Seems like there are tons of new concepts in Norman now and an overall improvement of goods and services available.  Seems like more and better is a good thing for Norman.

What has the net effect been on sales tax so far?

----------


## Pete

> Seems like there are tons of new concepts in Norman now and an overall improvement of goods and services available.  Seems like more and better is a good thing for Norman.
> 
> What has the net effect been on sales tax so far?


We're talking about taxpayer subsidies.  Impossible to prove that all or most of this wouldn't have happened without those public gifts.  And before anyone agrues "No way you can prove it would have" I will point one the burden of proof is on those advocating for millions of tax dollars being spent in this way.

Especially since Norman, Moore and almost everywhere in OKC is seeing a commercial boom and 99.8% of that development does not receive public assistance of any kind.

----------


## Ross MacLochness

> More profitable how?


I have no data to back this up but it seems as though it would be more profitable due to more shops/more people/"better" experience per amount of infrastructure (parking lots, streets, lighting, plumming, etc) provided.  People would be more likely to stick around and meander from place to place, perhaps visiting stores they wouldn't enter unless they just happened to be passing by. Perhaps folk wopuld be more inclined to buy, say, an ice cream cone or coffee as an extra expense as they strolled to their stores.  Purely speculation so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

----------


## mattjank

> I have no data to back this up but it seems as though it would be more profitable due to more shops/more people/"better" experience per amount of infrastructure (parking lots, streets, lighting, plumming, etc) provided.  People would be more likely to stick around and meander from place to place, perhaps visiting stores they wouldn't enter unless they just happened to be passing by. Perhaps folk wopuld be more inclined to buy, say, an ice cream cone or coffee as an extra expense as they strolled to their stores.  Purely speculation so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.


Agreed. I've never eaten at Tuckers, Torchy's, Zoe's Red Rock, and then thought about walking around the strip mall. Likewise, if I go to Target or Crest, that's the only place I go. I'd much rather drive home and walk my neighborhood, than walk through parking lots. This was sold as a lifestyle center, and I think of that as similar to the Domain in Austin, which once you get into the shopping/restaurant area you want to walk from place to place. There's shade, nice wide sidewalks, and plenty of spaces where the street is narrowed for pedestrian crossings. We got none of that. I haven't been shown that this development will be any more. We'll get an arena on a prime piece of land surrounded by parking. No thanks.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Agreed. I've never eaten at Tuckers, Torchy's, Zoe's Red Rock, and then thought about walking around the strip mall. Likewise, if I go to Target or Crest, that's the only place I go. I'd much rather drive home and walk my neighborhood, than walk through parking lots. This was sold as a lifestyle center, and I think of that as similar to the Domain in Austin, which once you get into the shopping/restaurant area you want to walk from place to place. There's shade, nice wide sidewalks, and plenty of spaces where the street is narrowed for pedestrian crossings. We got none of that. I haven't been shown that this development will be any more. We'll get an arena on a prime piece of land surrounded by parking. No thanks.


actually what has been built was never the life style center

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Agreed. I've never eaten at Tuckers, Torchy's, Zoe's Red Rock, and then thought about walking around the strip mall. Likewise, if I go to Target or Crest, that's the only place I go. I'd much rather drive home and walk my neighborhood, than walk through parking lots. This was sold as a lifestyle center, and I think of that as similar to the Domain in Austin, which once you get into the shopping/restaurant area you want to walk from place to place. There's shade, nice wide sidewalks, and plenty of spaces where the street is narrowed for pedestrian crossings. We got none of that. I haven't been shown that this development will be any more. We'll get an arena on a prime piece of land surrounded by parking. No thanks.


actually what has been built was never the life style center

----------


## ChargerAg

Has anybody heard a date on when the Carmax is supposed to open?    It seems like they broke ground on it a long while ago.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Hiring started about 15 days ago so I would imagine they will be up before the end of Summer.

----------


## Robert_M

It looked like they were putting a top layer of asphalt down when I went by there yesterday evening so it should be really close.

----------


## _Cramer_

I could see World Market fill in a spot here. Their spot in Tulsa is similar (large strip of stores). I could also see a Container Store opening in Norman. Especially if the ones in OKC does well.

----------


## PaddyShack

> I could see World Market fill in a spot here. Their spot in Tulsa is similar (large strip of stores). I could also see a Container Store opening in Norman. Especially if the ones in OKC does well.


Has anybody been to one of those Rooms To Go you see down along I35 in TX? Maybe one of those would be a good addition. Also, why wouldn't IKEA want to open up shop in the metro?

----------


## jedicurt

> Has anybody been to one of those Rooms To Go you see down along I35 in TX? Maybe one of those would be a good addition. Also, why wouldn't IKEA want to open up shop in the metro?


because OKC isn't a big enough market for them and our state is already split between two stores that would notice the decline in sales if they were to build one here... people in OKC go to the one in frisco, and I know a bunch of people in Tulsa who go to the one just north of Overland Park KS.  And both of these stores know it,   Frisco has been offering free delivery (on purchases over a certain amount) on items to OKC for awhile now... and last time I was at the one in Kansas, they were offering the same.   It's not like Ikea isn't getting the business... so the question is would they really get that much more if they were to build one here, knowing it would affect sales at two other stores... all my opinion, of course

----------


## PaddyShack

> because OKC isn't a big enough market for them and our state is already split between two stores that would notice the decline in sales if they were to build one here... people in OKC go to the one in frisco, and I know a bunch of people in Tulsa who go to the one just north of Overland Park KS.  And both of these stores know it,   Frisco has been offering free delivery (on purchases over a certain amount) on items to OKC for awhile now... and last time I was at the one in Kansas, they were offering the same.   It's not like Ikea isn't getting the business... so the question is would they really get that much more if they were to build one here, knowing it would affect sales at two other stores... all my opinion, of course


Ah, well for me personally IKEA is not worth the drive to either Frisco or KS. And really I don't feel there is anything worth the hassle of driving near Dallas.. but that too is my opinion. I would definitely shop IKEA if it were in the state, more so if it was in the metro.

----------


## shawnw

https://newsok.com/article/5602520/o...ws-arena-plans

----------


## ditm4567

Pete, what do you believe the future of this whole area/project looks like?

----------


## BG918

> https://newsok.com/article/5602520/o...ws-arena-plans


From the article:




> Rieger explained to councilors the foundation still hopes to develop the land but will explore other options. The development could be reconfigured any number of ways both financially and in terms of what is included in the project.





> The OU Foundation has no timeline going forward about future development, Rieger said.


I still think OU wants to eventually build an on-campus arena on the east stadium lots but it's probably at least 5 years out from happening.

As for UNP, I foresee more residential development especially apartments.  I'd like to see more aviation-related businesses on the east side to take advantage of airport access.

----------


## Pete

They had run an extensive campaign promoting this project in order get the TIF money (I saw frequent promoted ads on Facebook) but there was a pretty good public backlash to the point they realized they didn't have the support to get the public money.

Also, have to wonder if the quick and permanent canceling of these plans has something to do with the new OU president.

----------


## PaddyShack

I noticed last week when listening to KOKC 1520AM, the new host of the morning show is from Norman. Every morning last week he had a reporter from the Norman Transcript and few other people on to talk about what TIF districts are and to talk specifically about the details surrounding the UNP. He definitely seemed to be urging listeners to contact City Council members and engage in the conversation about the situation. Maybe he could be brought in on the great TIF discussion around the whole metro. Get more exposure on the subject.

----------


## ditm4567

> They had run an extensive campaign promoting this project in order get the TIF money (I saw frequent promoted ads on Facebook) but there was a pretty good public backlash to the point they realized they didn't have the support to get the public money.
> 
> Also, have to wonder if the quick and permanent canceling of these plans has something to do with the new OU president.


So is this arena project completely dead? Or are they going to try and move forward with private donations and/or self funding?

----------


## Pete

> So is this arena project completely dead? Or are they going to try and move forward with private donations and/or self funding?


It seems to be completely dead.

There doesn't seem to be a clear next step regarding a new on-campus arena or anywhere else.

----------


## Robert_M

> Has anybody heard a date on when the Carmax is supposed to open?    It seems like they broke ground on it a long while ago.


Construction trailer is now gone so I expect they are getting close and may be open within the month.

----------


## Soonerman

This would be a perfect place for the OKC Metro's first Cost Plus World Market, I'm surprised OKC doesn't have one now especially with the liquor laws changing.

----------


## soonerfan_in_okc

> This would be a perfect place for the OKC Metro's first Cost Plus World Market, I'm surprised OKC doesn't have one now especially with the liquor laws changing.


The one in Tulsa is great. I was delighted to see them open it in the middle of town and not in the exburbs - no reason okc won’t get one or two soon.

----------


## mattbrafford

CycleBar coming soon to shopping center beside Legacy Park next to La Madeleines. A2F65D1A-4897-46E5-B978-77CBB393AF2D.jpeg4D912F5C-FE7E-493A-878C-3892BB88C259.jpeg

----------


## sooner333

> Found the updated CBRE map at the below link...then click on flyer.  
> 
> Proposed businesses at UNP:
> Bad Daddy's Burger Bar by Torchy's 
> Burlington by Guitar Center 
> Petsmart by Guitar Center  (assume the ENP location would close)
> Carmax by Chuck E Cheese
> 
> New businesses shown but not listed as Proposed:
> ...


This is a quoted tweet from a couple of years ago, and the link is inactive.  I noticed some dirt work going on next to Hibdon's.  Any word on whether this is still going to be The Ranch, or will it be something else?

----------


## Jeepnokc

> This is a quoted tweet from a couple of years ago, and the link is inactive.  I noticed some dirt work going on next to Hibdon's.  Any word on whether this is still going to be The Ranch, or will it be something else?


LOL.  Threw me off when it said The Ranch by the Hibdons.  I thought....wait, the Ranch is by the Mathis Brothers (ie owned).  Mind is moving a little slow today

----------


## macfoucin

www.destinationnorman.com/data shows the Ranch Steakhouse at this same location.

----------


## _Cramer_

Does anyone know if they are still building The Ranch next to Hibdon Tires and across from Chili's (NW corner of Conference Drive and 24th Ave)? Forms are up for concrete and utilities are in.

----------


## sooner333

> Does anyone know if they are still building The Ranch next to Hibdon Tires and across from Chili's (NW corner of Conference Drive and 24th Ave)? Forms are up for concrete and utilities are in.


I don’t know for sure but the post above yours from January suggests it is.

----------


## mattjank

Not exactly UTC, but does anyone know what is happening on the land that was just cleared on Robinson just east of 24th NW?  Between the bank and the ambulance station. The land is being cleared completely.

----------


## Jwalt

They put up the construction sign finally, The Ranch steakhouse is officially coming!  It'll be nice to finally have a good steakhouse on the south side of the OKC metro.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> They put up the construction sign finally, The Ranch steakhouse is officially coming!  It'll be nice to finally have a good steakhouse on the south side of the OKC metro.


Yep. There goes my wallet and gut.

----------


## soonermike81

> They put up the construction sign finally, The Ranch steakhouse is officially coming!  It'll be nice to finally have a good steakhouse on the south side of the OKC metro.


Did anyone ever confirm this Ranch is the same steakhouse as the Britton one? I thought I remember people questioning it way back when it was first announced

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Did anyone ever confirm this Ranch is the same steakhouse as the Britton one? I thought I remember people questioning it way back when it was first announced


Yes it is.  I had dinner Friday night at The Ranch on Britton and asked about it.

----------


## soonermike81

> Yes it is.  I had dinner Friday night at The Ranch on Britton and asked about it.


Thanks! Great get for Norman. Easily my favorite steakhouse in town.

----------


## Jersey Boss

Sold for a cool 63 mill.
Dallas investors buy big retail power center in Norman, Oklahoma
https://oklahoman.com/article/563540...orman-oklahoma

----------


## jedicurt

was at Hudiburg Subaru this weekend, and overheard that they have land on the north end (apparently on the north side of where the frontage road turns back to go to 24th, to build their new location here.   Currently hoping for an October 2020 opening.  sounds like a total of 8-10 acres were purchased, but only 5 acres is going to be used for Subaru.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> was at Hudiburg Subaru this weekend, and overheard that they have land on the north end (apparently on the north side of where the frontage road turns back to go to 24th, to build their new location here.   Currently hoping for an October 2020 opening.  sounds like a total of 8-10 acres were purchased, but only 5 acres is going to be used for Subaru.


You are the second person I have heard this from. Seems to be happening. A lot of Subaru drivers in Norman. I'll be happy to drive less for my oil changes !

----------


## macfoucin

https://www.news9.com/story/41449097...k-funding-vote  Group Collecting Signatures To Overturn University North Park Funding Vote

----------


## mattbrafford

Does anyone know when the next phase of UNP is going to get started/if it is going to get started? The phase I am referring to is the one between the hotels and Crest on the Eastside.

----------


## sooner333

Ranch Steakhouse is now open and doing curbside takeout and delivery. Some pretty bad timing on the opening, for sure.

----------


## jonny d

> Ranch Steakhouse is now open and doing curbside takeout and delivery. Some pretty bad timing on the opening, for sure.


Yep. Not a dang thing they could do, aside from just keep the building shuttered for now. It stinks, considering, under normal circumstances, this is not a bad time to open a restaurant.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Yep. Not a dang thing they could do, aside from just keep the building shuttered for now. It stinks, considering, under normal circumstances, this is not a bad time to open a restaurant.


I was a little surprised that it doesn't appear they are running any type of specials either.  When I was on their FB page...it appeared everything is menu price.  Maybe not 50% off like Broadway for dinner special for two would be great.

----------


## jdizzle

> I was a little surprised that it doesn't appear they are running any type of specials either.  When I was on their FB page...it appeared everything is menu price.  Maybe not 50% off like Broadway for dinner special for two would be great.


That does seem weird. I am not sure why they wouldn't have some kind of COVID-19 promotions.

----------


## ahlokc

Anyone know what is being built/the dirtwork is for immediately north of the Terra Apartments?

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I was a little surprised that it doesn't appear they are running any type of specials either.  When I was on their FB page...it appeared everything is menu price.  Maybe not 50% off like Broadway for dinner special for two would be great.


They really need to cut their prices for carry out orders. I've been to the north location and was fine paying for the high prices because the service was exceptional. When you're not getting the service you shouldn't have to pay for it.

----------


## mattbrafford

> Anyone know what is being built/the dirtwork is for immediately north of the Terra Apartments?


Based on the renderings released awhile ago, this is going to be single-family homes.

unp092017a.jpg

----------


## jdizzle

> Based on the renderings released awhile ago, this is going to be single-family homes.
> 
> unp092017a.jpg


I am wondering if this is outdated, but that Town Center development is pretty much dead as a door nail, right?

----------


## mattbrafford

> I am wondering if this is outdated, but that Town Center development is pretty much dead as a door nail, right?


There is a sign across from Torchys that advertises who did the financing for that part of the project. I don’t know if it is completely dead but it does seem more and more likely to never happen.

----------


## mattbrafford

IMG_9718.JPG

----------


## HangryHippo

Those are going to be some weirdly placed single-family homes if that's what happens there.

----------


## Questor

Dear diary, next month will be year #15 since the original discussion on the TIF district that would come to be known as UNP/UTC. I’m told I just need to be patient and wait a little longer for the Lifestyle Center work in the next phase to begin.

----------


## mattbrafford

http://medcorepartners.com/press/med...ity-norman-ok/

Looks like it is going to be Senior Housing on the Northside of University Town Center.

----------


## HangryHippo

Rendering from here - http://medcorepartners.com/project/n...senior-living/

2019-0530-MedCore-Norman-view-02-1024x378.jpg

----------


## macfoucin

Hudiburg Subaru is now under construction.

----------


## macfoucin

Norman Development FB page is reporting that Moore Norman Technology Center has purchased 25 acres from UNP.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...86005&sfnsn=mo

----------


## Pete



----------


## ChrisHayes

Nice! What all will this be part of development entail? I mean possible corporate tenants?

----------


## jdizzle

> Nice! What all will this be part of development entail? I mean possible corporate tenants?


Probably none. This is likely a relocation of an existing MNTC campus to UNP, from the outside looking in. The whole UNP development has been a disaster, unfortunately. City Council had a chance to help it with the new arena. But no, that would have been too good for Norman.

----------


## Pete

> Nice! What all will this be part of development entail? I mean possible corporate tenants?


I believe it will be a campus for the Moore Norman Technology Center (vo-tech).

----------


## Jersey Boss

> Probably none. This is likely a relocation of an existing MNTC campus to UNP, from the outside looking in. The whole UNP development has been a disaster, unfortunately. City Council had a chance to help it with the new arena. But no, that would have been too good for Norman.


As far as a new arena. The citizens have been vocal about no more TIF funding.

----------


## jdizzle

> As far as a new arena. The citizens have been vocal about no more TIF funding.


More proof Norman does not know what it needs or wants. It is sad, really. they were sold a false bill of goods with UNP, so I get their disgust. But the arena would have helped a ton there, and that ruined goodwill cost Norman for a long time. A technology center won't help anyone by being located there, in my opinion. But it is better than a vacant lot, I suppose.

----------


## mattjank

> More proof Norman does not know what it needs or wants. It is sad, really. they were sold a false bill of goods with UNP, so I get their disgust. But the arena would have helped a ton there, and that ruined goodwill cost Norman for a long time. A technology center won't help anyone by being located there, in my opinion. But it is better than a vacant lot, I suppose.


As a Normanite, I agree with the sentiment. Sure it would be nice to have a new arena, but I don't trust any leadership in the area to fulfill what they propose. Started with the upscale UNP development that is anchored by Target and some car dealerships. Exciting upscale gets for us. And then Norman Forward that promised a complete overhaul of soccer fields, new baseball/softball fields, youth sports complex, etc. And now they need another $140M to complete it? That seems like some excessive cost over-runs.

----------


## GoGators

The arena not getting built here is best thing that could have happened for OU and Norman. 

Ive never understood why someone would want to move basketball so far off campus and put it next to an Office Depot and Dress Barn with parking lot views. the location of a university basketball venue should not be located in an area with the atmosphere of an interstate truck stop. IMO everyone involved dodged a bullet. No reason to continue to throw good money after bad.

----------


## Geographer

"new urbanist community" lol.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> The arena not getting built here is best thing that could have happened for OU and Norman. 
> 
> Ive never understood why someone would want to move basketball so far off campus and put it next to an Office Depot and Dress Barn with parking lot views. the location of a university basketball venue should not be located in an area with the atmosphere of an interstate truck stop. IMO everyone involved dodged a bullet. No reason to continue to throw good money after bad.


As an alum and season BB ticket holder I agree. Akin to putting lipstick on a pig.
As a voter I share in the sentiments of many residents that TIFS are not a good deal for the taxpayers or schools.

----------


## Rover

> The arena not getting built here is best thing that could have happened for OU and Norman. 
> 
> Ive never understood why someone would want to move basketball so far off campus and put it next to an Office Depot and Dress Barn with parking lot views. the location of a university basketball venue should not be located in an area with the atmosphere of an interstate truck stop. IMO everyone involved dodged a bullet. No reason to continue to throw good money after bad.


So basically you never saw the plans, because if you did you are purposely misleading with your description of the setting.  Id rather think you just dont know.

----------


## Jersey Boss

> As a Normanite, I agree with the sentiment. Sure it would be nice to have a new arena, but I don't trust any leadership in the area to fulfill what they propose. Started with the upscale UNP development that is anchored by Target and some car dealerships. Exciting upscale gets for us. And then Norman Forward that promised a complete overhaul of soccer fields, new baseball/softball fields, youth sports complex, etc. And now they need another $140M to complete it? That seems like some excessive cost over-runs.


Not 140M. 85.6 M with the Trae Young Foundation kicking in another 4M.

Norman bond propositions enter crowded landscape
https://nondoc.com/2020/08/07/norman...ded-landscape/

----------


## GoGators

> So basically you never saw the plans, because if you did you are purposely misleading with your description of the setting.  I’d rather think you just don’t know.


Yes I saw the plans. It was sold as a fancy dressed up strip mall and big box retail next to an interstate . It ended up being a regular strip mall and big box retail next to an interstate. Either way it was never an appropriate spot for a major university to play home basketball games.

It’s funny how people always get duped by these proposed “lifestyle centers.” They promised a new oasis that will let people live in a walkable area next to retail, bars, restaurants, and OU basketball. Like that place hasn’t already existed In Norman for 100 years. Then they build a dress barn on a curvy road with taxpayer money lol.

----------


## Rover

> Yes I saw the plans. It was sold as a fancy dressed up strip mall and big box retail next to an interstate . It ended up being a regular strip mall and big box retail next to an interstate. Either way it was never an appropriate spot for a major university to play home basketball games.
> 
> It’s funny how people always get duped by these proposed “lifestyle centers.” They promised a new oasis that will let people live in a walkable area next to retail, bars, restaurants, and OU basketball. Like that place hasn’t already existed In Norman for 100 years. Then they build a dress barn on a curvy road with taxpayer money lol.


So you did see it and purposely spin it incorrectly. I had given the benefit of the doubt.

Having an entertainment and dining center surrounding the venue is a good idea. Having it in the middle of a sterile parking lot is not. Moving it to a more accessible and visible area is a good idea too.

----------


## G.Walker

Corporate Centre was an ambitious office park consisting of 6 Class A office buildings that never got off the ground. It was first introduced back in 2008, and was supposed to be the cornerstone of University Town Center. Well looks lke this isn't going to happen.

----------


## GoGators

> So you did see it and purposely spin it incorrectly. I had given the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Having an entertainment and dining center surrounding the venue is a good idea. Having it in the middle of a sterile parking lot is not. Moving it to a more accessible and visible area is a good idea too.


If OU is going to do anything they should rebuild or remodel  McCasland Field House. It is a close proximity to an organic entertainment/ dining center and it doesn’t get “more accessible” than walking distance for thousands of university students. Off campus sports facilities went out of style in the 80s when everyone realized it was generally a terrible Idea. 

This development was always going to be garbage from day one.

----------


## Rover

> If OU is going to do anything they should rebuild or remodel  McCasland Field House. It is a close proximity to an organic entertainment/ dining center and it doesnt get more accessible than walking distance for thousands of university students. Off campus sports facilities went out of style in the 80s when everyone realized it was generally a terrible Idea. 
> 
> This development was always going to be garbage from day one.


Theres no way McCasland could ever work as a modern basketball facility. Thats an old timers dream.

Maybe if there were sites near campus corner, which is actually a ways from student housing too

----------


## GoGators

> There’s no way McCasland could ever work as a modern basketball facility. That’s an old timers dream.
> 
> Maybe if there were sites near campus corner, which is actually a ways from student housing too


They figured out how to do it 90 miles north of Norman.

----------


## Rover

> They figured out how to do it 90 miles north of Norman.


And its about the only game in town on a weeknight in Stillwater, but still, even then they havent been anywhere near filling it for the last decade.  Entertainment is a lot more competitive and developed than it was and you need more to draw live crowds.  It isnt about whether you Can technically add seats to an outdated building, but can you add expected amenities to the building and the area that are now necessary to draw people. And btw, students just arent going as much .... not the same rah rah school mentality as in the 50s.

----------


## 5alive

Here is one rendering from 2017. I'm sure this was far from the final plans, but ideas for what could be. I have no opinion about this topic, just thought you might enjoy what was considered at one time...OU BB idea.jpg

----------


## GoGators

> And it’s about the only game in town on a weeknight in Stillwater, but still, even then they haven’t been anywhere near filling it for the last decade.  Entertainment is a lot more competitive and developed than it was and you need more to draw live crowds.  It isn’t about whether you Can technically add seats to an outdated building, but can you add expected amenities to the building and the area that are now necessary to draw people. And btw, students just aren’t going as much .... not the same rah rah school mentality as in the 50s.


University North Park doesn’t have the amenities to draw anyone there. It has all of the ambiance of i40 and MacArthur with less chain restaurants to chose from. Unless I could get free tickets with 4 new tires at discount tire or something. OU is a beautiful setting, campus corner has a lot to offer. Not sure why people are trying to reinvent the wheel. The lifestyle center has already been built. If students aren’t showing up, moving the venue 5 miles away from campus next to an old navy isn’t going to do student attendance any favors.

----------


## Jersey Boss

I don't know of any amenities around the football stadium. Tailgating has been discouraged, O'Connels was taken away. Should that be relocated also?

----------


## HangryHippo

Random aside since you mentioned tailgating - what theyve done to tailgating along Lindsey St. at GFOMS is tragic.

----------


## Rover

> University North Park doesn’t have the amenities to draw anyone there. It has all of the ambiance of i40 and MacArthur with less chain restaurants to chose from. Unless I could get free tickets with 4 new tires at discount tire or something. OU is a beautiful setting, campus corner has a lot to offer. Not sure why people are trying to reinvent the wheel. The lifestyle center has already been built. If students aren’t showing up, moving the venue 5 miles away from campus next to an old navy isn’t going to do student attendance any favors.


So, you basically misunderstood the whole plan and reasons behind it. I doubt they could do much to make sour people have fun anyway. Hope you have fun in Stillwater.

----------


## GoGators

> So, you basically misunderstood the whole plan and reasons behind it. I doubt they could do much to make sour people have fun anyway. Hope you have fun in Stillwater.


I understand what they sold the plan as. I also knew what it was always going to be. If you are disappointed you wont be able to go to OU basketball games in a strip mall then Im sorry. Maybe one day OU will sell off their beautiful historic campus and teach out of strip malls sandwiched between a panara bread and Office Depot. Hopefully Right off the interstate with ample parking for easy access. Ill keep my fingers crossed for you

----------


## Rover

> I understand what they sold the plan as. I also knew what it was always going to be. If you are disappointed you wont be able to go to OU basketball games in a strip mall then Im sorry. Maybe one day OU will sell off their beautiful historic campus and teach out of strip malls sandwiched between a panara bread and Office Depot. Hopefully Right off the interstate with ample parking for easy access. Ill keep my fingers crossed for you


You are actually pretty funny.

----------


## jedicurt

i will admit that i was okay with the arena being in UNP, because then i could have walked to games... but other than that. it was an awful idea and proposal... mainly because we have been sold with great looking images before for UNP and none of them have ever ended that way.  fool me once.....

----------


## BG918

> Theres no way McCasland could ever work as a modern basketball facility. Thats an old timers dream.
> 
> Maybe if there were sites near campus corner, which is actually a ways from student housing too


Parking lots at Brooks & Jenkins are the perfect spot - on-campus, walking distance to Campus Corner and student housing, near existing parking garages to disperse fans, can be used for university functions/events, etc

----------


## mattbrafford

There are new property corner stakes on the lot along 12th between Crest and Holiday Inn Express. Hopefully this means constrution will start soon...
Annotation 2020-08-10 171919.jpg

----------


## jonny d

> There are new property corner stakes on the lot along 12th between Crest and Holiday Inn Express. Hopefully this means constrution will start soon...
> Annotation 2020-08-10 171919.jpg


Isn't that where the town center part was going to go?

----------


## HangryHippo

> Isn't that where the town center part was going to go?


Yes.

----------


## macfoucin

https://medcorepartners.com/project/...senior-living/

Going up just North of the Terra Appartments.

----------


## mattjank

Anyone know what is going in just to the north and to the south of Embassy Suites?

----------


## Pete

> Anyone know what is going in just to the north and to the south of Embassy Suites?


To the north is a senior living complex that is under construction.

To the south, there are a couple of small hotels planned and a little strip center along the main road.

----------


## KHutch66

> To the north is a senior living complex that is under construction.
> 
> To the south, there are a couple of small hotels planned and a little strip center along the main road.


There are also plans for a new sports complex to be built between these two projects. The Young Family Athletic Center will be used for swim meets, volleyball, and basketball tournaments.
https://www.normanok.gov/residents-v...thletic-center

----------


## mattjank

> There are also plans for a new sports complex to be built between these two projects. The Young Family Athletic Center will be used for swim meets, volleyball, and basketball tournaments.
> https://www.normanok.gov/residents-v...thletic-center


Thanks. That is the one I was wondering about. Didn't realize it was immediately to the north of Embassy Suites. Saw new signs went up recently.

----------


## macfoucin

Crumbl Cookies is going in near Starbucks.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Mo'Bettahs opening soon by the Embassy Suites and Swig opening June 10th by the McAlisters. 

Zios closed a while back.

----------


## mattjank

> Mo'Bettahs opening soon by the Embassy Suites and Swig opening June 10th by the McAlisters. 
> 
> Zios closed a while back.


Saw a permit was issued for hideaway to refinish the Zio's space. Looks like they have been working on it.

----------


## Boop

> Crumbl Cookies is going in near Starbucks.


I do not get Crumbl Cookies, I tried it once and it is undercooked and it sucks

----------


## dcsooner

Great Cookies. Very moist and freshly baked

----------


## mattbrafford

This whole area is being clear cut.

----------


## BoulderSooner

the OU basketball arena project at this location is far far from dead

----------


## chssooner

> This whole area is being clear cut.


This was where the upscale lifestyle center was going to be in the beginning. Not sure about now (but the Arena isn't going in this clearing).

----------


## mattjank

> This whole area is being clear cut.


They were clearing out a homeless encampment. https://www.news9.com/story/62da1734...ss-encampment-

----------


## Pete

Holy cow, the homeless situation in Central Oklahoma is completely out of control.

Seems to be getting worse by the day.

----------


## KHutch66

> the OU basketball arena project at this location is far far from dead


I believe the OU basketball arena was platted to be north of rock creek and west of 24th.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I believe the OU basketball arena was platted to be north of rock creek and west of 24th.


didn't mean that spot .. meant in this development ..

----------


## KHutch66

> didn't mean that spot .. meant in this development ..


Ahh

----------


## Jersey Boss

> I believe the OU basketball arena was platted to be north of rock creek and west of 24th.


In Feb. coach said we need a new arena(47 year old LNC). Coach also wants it on campus.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> In Feb. coach said we need a new arena(47 year old LNC). Coach also wants it on campus.


coach doesn't care if it is on campus or not ..

----------


## Jersey Boss

https://www.si.com/college/oklahoma/...ts-complicated

Coach has identified the student population as his target audience. LNC has been identified as being too far off campus. UNP is even further away than LNC.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> https://www.si.com/college/oklahoma/...ts-complicated
> 
> Coach has identified the student population as his target audience. LNC has been identified as being too far off campus. UNP is even further away than LNC.


lol  LNC is on campus ....     most students don't live on campus     and i have talked to the coach about a new stadium

----------


## Jersey Boss

> lol  LNC is on campus ....     most students don't live on campus     and i have talked to the coach about a new stadium


Yeah I know LNC is on campus. I've been going to games thete for 42 years. 
The reality though is that it is not in the heart of the campus like Owen Field or the Field House.
Time will tell where and when. My guess it would not pass on a city wide ballot if it called for local funding.

----------


## SEMIweather

Porter is probably going to be out the door by the end of the 2024-25 season, so my guess is the next coachs opinion will be more relevant lol.

----------


## Rover

> Porter is probably going to be out the door by the end of the 2024-25 season, so my guess is the next coachs opinion will be more relevant lol.


Wishful thinking.

----------


## BG918

> Porter is probably going to be out the door by the end of the 2024-25 season, so my guess is the next coach’s opinion will be more relevant lol.


What makes you think that?

----------


## G.Walker

There is actually enough land area to build another basketball arena near where the LNC is now. They could easily do that and demolish LNC. But the over all goal of the arena being at UNP was also to attract and host major regional high school games and tournaments as well. With that giving a boost to hotels and other commercial development in UNP. The problem with building a new arena on OUs south campus is that there are no restaurants, hotels, and other leisure activities in the immediate area.

----------


## G.Walker

Looks like the arena project for UNP is not completely dead. Cleveland county  commissioners are now pushing to revive this development:

https://www.normantranscript.com/new...c3b359c3e.html

----------


## BG918

> There is actually enough land area to build another basketball arena near where the LNC is now. They could easily do that and demolish LNC. But the over all goal of the arena being at UNP was also to attract and host major regional high school games and tournaments as well. With that giving a boost to hotels and other commercial development in UNP. The problem with building a new arena on OUs south campus is that there are no restaurants, hotels, and other leisure activities in the immediate area.


Plenty of that on campus though with Campus Corner, which is why the Duck Pond makes the most sense for a new arena

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Plenty of that on campus though with Campus Corner, which is why the Duck Pond makes the most sense for a new arena


UNP makes the most sense for the future of the program and for funding .. (getting the county and taxpayers to pay for it   which as of now is the only way it is going to get built) 

that 20 min shorter drive each way makes a big difference mentally for ticket holders ..

----------


## HangryHippo

> UNP makes the most sense for the future of the program and for funding .. (getting the county and taxpayers to pay for it   which as of now is the only way it is going to get built) 
> 
> that 20 min shorter drive each way makes a big difference mentally for ticket holders ..


This.

----------


## chssooner

So much for giving a crap about students.

----------


## Pete

If they went forward with the UNP plans, I bet they organize shuttle busses from campus.


Personally, I'd rather see a new facility near the campus and Campus Corner, but something needs to be done to remain competitive and this seems like the best way to get the thing built.

----------


## Pete

BTW, OU owns the land under UNP and has a significant stake in all the related development.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> So much for giving a crap about students.


lol  most students don't live on campus ...

----------


## onthestrip

> lol  most students don't live on campus ...


I have no idea where all students live but a ton of them live on or within a mile of campus. Its very evident from college bball arenas around the country that student attendance suffers when their team plays off campus. This UNP location would be mostly an economical decision and not one for the students or really the program.

Also, just like the first time, I dont think citizens will go for funding most of this arena when they look at all the private money going for football, baseball, softball facility improvements. They'll ask themselves why they need to pay for this arena when OU has all these other nice facilities that they didnt have to pay for.

----------


## Jersey Boss

^ I don't think a county wide vote v. a city wide vote increasing the chance of passage.
You are right on the other improvements that were made without local funding. This is a state responsibility.

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## G.Walker

The fact is students make up a small percentage of tickets sales for OU football and basketball games. The majority of your fan base is going to be non-students, therefore the UNP location for a new arena makes the most sense if we are talking about boosting attendance. Placing it in UNP will get more people from Moore and Oklahoma city to attend games. 

Moreover, placing near hotels, restaurants and other leisure activities will help the arena win bids for other sports tournaments or events. I mean we are looking at graduations, wrestling & gymnastic meets, cheerleading competitions, the list goes on. So voters need to look at the big picture and not just basketball games.

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## Jersey Boss

I'm curious as to the feasibility of the field house building up?

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## BoulderSooner

> ^ I don't think a county wide vote v. a city wide vote increasing the chance of passage.
> You are right on the other improvements that were made without local funding. This is a state responsibility.


there wouldn't be a county wide vote .......   just like there was not going to be a city wide vote ..

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## BoulderSooner

> I'm curious as to the feasibility of the field house building up?


0.00%

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## Jersey Boss

> Looks like the arena project for UNP is not completely dead. Cleveland county  commissioners are now pushing to revive this development:
> 
> https://www.normantranscript.com/new...c3b359c3e.html


This project started perking back in Feb.
Local developer/brick thrower Sassan is one of the behind the scenes voices as he stands to profit greatly. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nor...59c3e.amp.html

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## Jersey Boss

> there wouldn't be a county wide vote .......   just like there was not going to be a city wide vote ..


Can't increase taxes without it

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## G.Walker

I live in Cleveland county, and if there was a proposition for a bond or sales tax increase for the arena, I would vote for it.

Everything doesn't have to be hosted at Paycom Center, it would be nice to have another alternative in the region, instead of the hassle of going downtown for everything.

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## Plutonic Panda

Hopefully it’s built on campus. Building it at UNP is a mistake, IMO.

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## Roger S

OU's student section is pretty weak... I'm not sure a "But what about the students?" argument is even valid in this case.

I remember during the Frank Martin era at K-State. Their students would come down and take over the LNC. Even some of them sitting in the OU student section.

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## G.Walker

The key to get attendance up is to win games. No one wants to buy tickets to watch them lose. The football team doesn't have a hard time filling the stands because they win games. 

Maybe they could just build a multi-purpose arena, and OU could just have the naming rights, and contract out all there home games at the new arena.

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## onthestrip

> The fact is students make up a small percentage of tickets sales for OU football and basketball games. The majority of your fan base is going to be non-students, therefore the UNP location for a new arena makes the most sense if we are talking about boosting attendance. Placing it in UNP will get more people from Moore and Oklahoma city to attend games.


Student ticket sales still make up a healthy portion of any college's bball program, and they are much more reliable on attendance than older ticket holders. However, from a financial aspect, student ticket prices are obviously lower than general public tickets. But if you want a lively atmosphere, an on campus arena is the only way to go.  I also think you're overestimating attendance from people in Moore and OKC for college bball, its just not an attractive form of entertainment these days, especially with the Thunder.




> OU's student section is pretty weak... I'm not sure a "But what about the students?" argument is even valid in this case.
> 
> I remember during the Frank Martin era at K-State. Their students would come down and take over the LNC. Even some of them sitting in the OU student section.


I'd say its weak based on LNC already being quite a ways from the main campus. Going to UNP would make it even weaker.

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## Jersey Boss

The OU athletic department needs to embrace the father of modern OU hoops.
There has been zero recognition of what Tubbs brought not only to OU but that era of college ball.
The AD went to great lengths in the platitudes to Sherry Coale last year. Benches, banner in the rafters, etc.
There are former players such as Stacy King who have been vocal on this.
Why no recognition such as naming the court?
Tubbs put asses in the seats at the LNC on a regular basis.

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## BoulderSooner

> Student ticket sales still make up a healthy portion of any college's bball program, and they are much more reliable on attendance than older ticket holders. However, from a financial aspect, student ticket prices are obviously lower than general public tickets. But if you want a lively atmosphere, an on campus arena is the only way to go.  I also think you're overestimating attendance from people in Moore and OKC for college bball, its just not an attractive form of entertainment these days, especially with the Thunder.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say its weak based on LNC already being quite a ways from the main campus. Going to UNP would make it even weaker.


almost none of this is accurate

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## GoGators

How could it be possible that the University of Oklahoma cant get a new basketball arena built on or near campus. The whole UNP proposal makes zero sense.

There is a reason that you see no other major universities proposing new off campus facilities (for any sport) and several trying as hard as they can to get venues back on campus if at all possible. This is a proposal i would expect to see in 1989 not 2022.

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## BoulderSooner

> How could it be possible that the University of Oklahoma cant get a new basketball arena built on or near campus. The whole UNP proposal makes zero sense.
> 
> There is a reason that you see no other major universities proposing new off campus facilities (for any sport) and several trying as hard as they can to get venues back on campus if at all possible. This is a proposal i would expect to see in 1989 not 2022.


OU has had almost 0 issue selling basketball season tickets in the past 25 years .. 


they do have a big problem getting ticket holders to come to the games ..           every season ticket holder meeting and survey one of the biggest issue is making it easier to come to games and having dinning/drink options around the arena before and after games .....   

also OU is not going to spend money on a new basketball stadium until a ton of other projects are done   (including about 400 mil more on the football stadium)   

UNP stadium project solves a ton of the issue OU basketball has  ....           and makes a TON of sense .. 

the college basketball team that makes the most money in the country has an off campus arena ...

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## GoGators

> OU has had almost 0 issue selling basketball season tickets in the past 25 years .. 
> 
> 
> they do have a big problem getting ticket holders to come to the games ..           every season ticket holder meeting and survey one of the biggest issue is making it easier to come to games and having dinning/drink options around the arena before and after games .....   
> 
> also OU is not going to spend money on a new basketball stadium until a ton of other projects are done   (including about 400 mil more on the football stadium)   
> 
> UNP stadium project solves a ton of the issue OU basketball has  ....           and makes a TON of sense .. 
> 
> *the college basketball team that makes the most money in the country has an off campus arena ...*


Yea, There is a bit of a difference in a school located in an urban setting playing in the downtown core of a large city on the banks of the Ohio River and a University surrounded by prime real estate instead choosing to put a stadium next to a kohl's parking lot off of the interstate.

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## GoGators

> OU has had almost 0 issue selling basketball season tickets in the past 25 years .. 
> 
> 
> they do have a big problem getting ticket holders to come to the games ..           every season ticket holder meeting and survey one of the biggest issue is making it easier to come to games and having dinning/drink options around the arena before and after games .....   
> 
> also OU is not going to spend money on a new basketball stadium until a ton of other projects are done   (including about 400 mil more on the football stadium)   
> 
> UNP stadium project solves a ton of the issue OU basketball has  ....           and makes a TON of sense .. 
> 
> *the college basketball team that makes the most money in the country has an off campus arena ...*


Yea, There is a bit of a difference in a school located in an urban setting playing in the downtown core of a large city on the banks of the Ohio River and a University surrounded by prime real estate instead choosing to put a stadium next to a kohl's parking lot off of the interstate. 

If OU wants the venue off campus, they should look towards downtown. It keeps the stadium close for students and it would be surrounded by far superior dining/drink/entertainment options than anything at UNP.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Yea, There is a bit of a difference in a school located in an urban setting playing in the downtown core of a large city on the banks of the Ohio River and a University surrounded by prime real estate instead choosing to put a stadium next to a kohl's parking lot off of the interstate.


Agreed. This would also add to the vibrancy of the campus making it more appealing as well.

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## chssooner

> Yea, There is a bit of a difference in a school located in an urban setting playing in the downtown core of a large city on the banks of the Ohio River and a University surrounded by prime real estate instead choosing to put a stadium next to a kohl's parking lot off of the interstate.


What school is that? University of Louisville is NOWHERE near downtown Louisville or near the urban center. At least look to make sure your facts are correct. Like, that's bad, because you were trying to bash him, but failed.

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## Jersey Boss

> lol  LNC is on campus ....     most students don't live on campus     and i have talked to the coach about a new stadium


So why did you share that you talked to the coach without sharing what he told you? That does not make your opinion  anymore credible

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## GoGators

> What school is that? University of Louisville is NOWHERE near downtown Louisville or near the urban center. At least look to make sure your facts are correct. Like, that's bad, because you were trying to bash him, but failed.


I never mentioned anything about how close or far campus was to downtown Louisville. Not really sure what you’re even talking about.

The university of Louisville is located in a city. choosing to play in the core of that city (that has no nba team) in a downtown arena makes a little sense. It’s not like they went to some random retail strip center off of I-65 and built an arena between a Sams club parking lot  and a Zaxby’s.

And I’m not trying to bash anyone. OU has an unbelievably beautiful campus, great amenities, a highly involved student population, and a highly successful athletic department. Why anyone would want to break basketball away from that  and bury it out next to some big box shopping development baffles me.

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## Rover

> I never mentioned anything about how close or far campus was to downtown Louisville. Not really sure what youre even talking about.
> 
> The university of Louisville is located in a city. choosing to play in the core of that city (that has no nba team) in a downtown arena makes a little sense. Its not like they went to some random retail strip center off of I-65 and built an arena between a Sams club parking lot  and a Zaxbys.
> 
> And Im not trying to bash anyone. OU has an unbelievably beautiful campus, great amenities, a highly involved student population, and a highly successful athletic department. Why anyone would want to break basketball away from that  and bury it out next to some big box shopping development baffles me.


Actually the students havent been overly supportive for quite some time. Not really all that involved.

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## chssooner

> I never mentioned anything about how close or far campus was to downtown Louisville. Not really sure what you’re even talking about.
> 
> The university of Louisville is located in a city. choosing to play in the core of that city (that has no nba team) in a downtown arena makes a little sense. It’s not like they went to some random retail strip center off of I-65 and built an arena between a Sams club parking lot  and a Zaxby’s.
> 
> And I’m not trying to bash anyone. OU has an unbelievably beautiful campus, great amenities, a highly involved student population, and a highly successful athletic department. Why anyone would want to break basketball away from that  and bury it out next to some big box shopping development baffles me.


Thought you were talking about Louisville when you mentioned arena in an urban core of a large city on the Ohio River. My apologies.

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## BoulderSooner

> Thought you were talking about Louisville when you mentioned arena in an urban core of a large city on the Ohio River. My apologies.


he was

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## GoGators

> Thought you were talking about Louisville when you mentioned arena in an urban core of a large city on the Ohio River. My apologies.


I was talking about Louisville. Their arena is located in downtown Louisville on the Ohio River. The main campus is about 4 miles south of the arena.

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## onthestrip

> I never mentioned anything about how close or far campus was to downtown Louisville. Not really sure what youre even talking about.
> 
> The university of Louisville is located in a city. choosing to play in the core of that city (that has no nba team) in a downtown arena makes a little sense. Its not like they went to some random retail strip center off of I-65 and built an arena between a Sams club parking lot  and a Zaxbys.
> 
> And Im not trying to bash anyone. *OU has an unbelievably beautiful campus, great amenities, a highly involved student population, and a highly successful athletic department. Why anyone would want to break basketball away from that  and bury it out next to some big box shopping development baffles me.*


Because this UNP location is purely an economic decision and is ignoring the bball program, students, recruiting. Find a spot near the football stadium for an arena and you'd have a livelier and more fun atmosphere and more consistent attendance. 

The talk of LNC being "on campus" might be technically true but its not for all intents and purposes.

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## BoulderSooner

> Because this UNP location is purely an economic decision and is ignoring the bball program, students, recruiting. Find a spot near the football stadium for an arena and you'd have a livelier and more fun atmosphere and more consistent attendance.


again  this is not correct ....

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## Roger S

> Because this UNP location is purely an economic decision and is ignoring the bball program, students, recruiting. Find a spot near the football stadium for an arena and you'd have a livelier and more fun atmosphere and more consistent attendance. 
> 
> The talk of LNC being "on campus" might be technically true but its not for all intents and purposes.


Where are you going to park everyone? Dealing with the parking chaos around the football stadium is ok for the handful of Autumn home games. But in a state where no one wants to park and walk to anything to begin with. Do you think they are going to park and walk to a sport with more home games in the middle of winter? Not to mention weeknight games in the dark during winter.

Attendance would drop even more.

Maybe they could hold a few non-conference games in the old field house and offer the students free tickets to see how many actually show up.

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## chssooner

> again  this is not correct ....


Why so you speak in such absolutes? Like, all the time. It makes it hard to have any discourse with you.

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## Jersey Boss

> Because this UNP location is purely an economic decision and is ignoring the bball program, students, recruiting. Find a spot near the football stadium for an arena and you'd have a livelier and more fun atmosphere and more consistent attendance. 
> 
> The talk of LNC being "on campus" might be technically true but its not for all intents and purposes.


Shortly after the city walked away from it "Sassy Pants"(Sassan Moghadam)the brick throwing developer cranked up Unite Norman. In Feb of this year Sassy went to the county commissioners.
Shortly after the county commisioners got involved back in Feb, they disbanded the 8 member oversight board. Oversight was then done by the three commissioners and the 3 member excise board. The excise board was chaired at the time by the new Norman mayor.
This UNP scheme is politics played out behind any oversight.

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## BoulderSooner

> Why so you speak in such absolutes? Like, all the time. It makes it hard to have any discourse with you.


on this particular issue i have extensive knowledge

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## David

> Shortly after the city walked away from it "Sassy Pants"(Sassan Moghadam)the brick throwing developer cranked up Unite Norman. In Feb of this year Sassy went to the county commissioners.
> Shortly after the county commisioners got involved back in Feb, they disbanded the 8 member oversight board. Oversight was then done by the three commissioners and the 3 member excise board. The excise board was chaired at the time by the new Norman mayor.
> This UNP scheme is politics played out behind any oversight.


Now that is interesting.

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## BoulderSooner

> Shortly after the city walked away from it "Sassy Pants"(Sassan Moghadam)the brick throwing developer cranked up Unite Norman. In Feb of this year Sassy went to the county commissioners.
> Shortly after the county commisioners got involved back in Feb, they disbanded the 8 member oversight board. Oversight was then done by the three commissioners and the 3 member excise board. The excise board was chaired at the time by the new Norman mayor.
> This UNP scheme is politics played out behind any oversight.


the norman city council has a strange dislike of OU and for some reason see's OU as an annoyance ( instead of the reason that OU exists and thrives )   ......  

they don't do much to help out OU      they should bend over backwards to be helpful partners with OU

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## Jersey Boss

> Now that is interesting.


https://www.normantranscript.com/new...c3b359c3e.html
*The arena comeback: county pushes ahead
By Mindy Ragan Wood | Transcript Staff Writer  Feb 11, 2022*
_Local commercial real estate developer Sassan Moghadam began discussing an arena comeback with District 2 County Commissioner Darry Stacy in early 2020, before the COVID-19 pandemic hit and before Moghadam formed a group of citizens, Unite Norman, that attempted to recall multiple city councilors and endorsed candidates for city council in 2021 and 2022._

https://www.normantranscript.com/new...78edb8b40.html
Commissioners move to dissolve budget board
By Mindy Ragan Wood | Transcript Staff Writer  *Feb 19, 2021* 


https://www.normantranscript.com/new...a57e53c50.html

*Outside county officials warn about commissioner budget move*
_Cleveland County Excise Board members Larry Heikkila, Sid Porter and Bonnie Green declined to be interviewed regarding their reaction to the commission’s decision._

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## rjstone208

The Norman city council has a strange dislike for the city of Norman.   Unfriendly to business, unfriendly to OU, unfriendly to residents (I'm one), unfriendly to police and services.  Try contacting a council member.  Crickets or a pat response.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> The Norman city council has a strange dislike for the city of Norman.   Unfriendly to business, unfriendly to OU, unfriendly to residents (I'm one), unfriendly to police and services.  Try contacting a council member.  Crickets or a pat response.


I had no issues talking to my old council person in my ward. We have a ward facebook group and they would answer things all the times. The new guy, however, does not.

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## chssooner

With the land north of Crest cleared (where the upscale portion was supposed to go) anyone know what is going there now?

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## Pete

> With the land north of Crest cleared (where the upscale portion was supposed to go) anyone know what is going there now?


I believe it was just cleared to move out a big homeless camp and discourage them from coming back.

Don't think there are any imminent plans.

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## chssooner

> I believe it was just cleared to move out a big homeless camp and discourage them from coming back.
> 
> Don't think there are any imminent plans.


Ah, dang! I was hoping they were moving forward there.

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## BimmerSooner

As of yesterday, there is a bunch of earth moving equipment still out there.  Dozers, scrapers, etc.  The trees and vegetation are long gone; as are any homeless encampments.  Odd the equipment would still be there.  Appears to be an active work site to me.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> As of yesterday, there is a bunch of earth moving equipment still out there.  Dozers, scrapers, etc.  The trees and vegetation are long gone; as are any homeless encampments.  Odd the equipment would still be there.  Appears to be an active work site to me.


Much like the bulldozer on Lindsey street. It could be there a while.  :Wink:

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## Romulack

Both pics are from early September
IMG_0307.jpg
IMG_0304.jpg

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## sooner333

> As of yesterday, there is a bunch of earth moving equipment still out there.  Dozers, scrapers, etc.  The trees and vegetation are long gone; as are any homeless encampments.  Odd the equipment would still be there.  Appears to be an active work site to me.


It looks like they are at minimum building the road out past Crest to connect over by the hotels based on what I saw yesterday.

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## Soonerman

Would be nice if they put a little lifestyle Mall there, maybe get a Nike Outlet open out there. It would take away some of the stress from the OKC outlet store.

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## mattjank

I heard some rumblings over the weekend that there may be a plan to put in something similar to Chick-N-Pickle in the area north of Crest that was recently cleared. Anyone have insight?

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## HangryHippo

> I heard some rumblings over the weekend that there may be a plan to put in something similar to Chick-N-Pickle in the area north of Crest that was recently cleared. Anyone have insight?


That would be awesome!

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## FighttheGoodFight

What I would do for a dang Top Golf.

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## BimmerSooner

Definitely more than tree clearing or a road.  Looking northeast and northwest from
the north west corner of the Crest parking lot.  E2299305-A808-4AA6-A63C-55B535E99368.jpegE917BD04-1F9A-42E5-8055-83B6F299F6CF.jpeg

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## Pete

^

All their plans show that as the site of the proposed 'lifestyle center'.

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