# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  Is Norman "the enlightened suburb?"

## Spartan

I am more and more beginning to think this is true, that if you look at all of the cities in Central Oklahoma including OKC, that Norman stands out as the most enlightened, the most sustainable, the most urban, and the best-planned.

_ESPECIALLY_ if you throw out the UNP quagmire..

And I fully expect people to balk at calling Norman a suburb, and I didn't mean it, just that it is A city in Central Oklahoma not named OKC.

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## SkyWestOKC

Including OKC proper, Norman is the most sustainable?

I need a good laugh, Nick. Thanks

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## kevinpate

I dunno if it is the 'most' sustainable, but just as a fer instance, the Norman folk dinna demo the closed for safety concerns Vista bldg. because the land would make a better park.  Sure, the work has been slow,a nd sure, floor 6 has a still unknown future, but it seems 1-5 have commitments for occupancy come next year when the renovations are completed.

Of course, not so long ago a few places were thrashed to add parking, but hey, the mural is killer

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## krisb

When you say Norman, do you mean the OU campus and immediate surroundings...or Norman? Because outside of the main campus, it's pretty much like every other suburb...shopping centers, car dealerships, big box retailers, cookie-cutter houses.

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## metro

"Enlightened" - No              
Sustainable and well planned - Yes

Doesn't the nature of it being a true college town help quite a bit in these regards?

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## blangtang

The American Association of Enlightened Suburbs rankings that came out last year had Norman listed as the 24th Most Enlightened Suburb.........

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## fuzzytoad

> The American Association of Enlightened Suburbs


is that even a real thing?  I googled it and came up with nothing..

if it's real then  :Lol2:

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## metro

Spartan, are you a member of Guild of America's Enlightened Suburbs?

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## Mr T

The short answer to your question is "no."  There are an awful lot of things wrong with Norman, but no-one is allowed to talk about them.  When your newspaper is worse than the Oklahoman you are not good.  So far this week alone the OKC paper has covered five Norman stories not in the Transcript.  They cancelled their forum because folk kept bringing up stuff that makes the mayor and the university president uncomfortable.  Just TRY "adding a comment."  "Have an opinion?  Want to express it?  Come to our blogs."  Yay!  6 blogs about sports and bicycles.  One letter every 30 days.  Good discussion of the issues?  Not in Norman.  We know what they think we need to know when they decide to tell us.  So, I guess the long answer is no, also.

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## ljbab728

> The short answer to your question is "no."  There are an awful lot of things wrong with Norman, but no-one is allowed to talk about them.  When your newspaper is worse than the Oklahoman you are not good.  So far this week alone the OKC paper has covered five Norman stories not in the Transcript.  They cancelled their forum because folk kept bringing up stuff that makes the mayor and the university president uncomfortable.  Just TRY "adding a comment."  "Have an opinion?  Want to express it?  Come to our blogs."  Yay!  6 blogs about sports and bicycles.  One letter every 30 days.  Good discussion of the issues?  Not in Norman.  We know what they think we need to know when they decide to tell us.  So, I guess the long answer is no, also.


I haven't subscribed to the Transcript for years but have to wonder what could be said that would make David Boren uncomfortable.  He's been around long enough to have seen and heard it all.  I doubt that anything really makes him uncomfortable.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

> I haven't subscribed to the Transcript for years but have to wonder what could be said that would make David Boren uncomfortable.  He's been around long enough to have seen and heard it all.  I doubt that anything really makes him uncomfortable.


Bringing up Male lover boys would make him uncomfortable.

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## ljbab728

That sounds like a libelous statement.  Do you have something to back that up or reason to think that the Transcript would accept a letter alleging something like that?  Legitimate newspapers aren't going to accept tabloid type letters like that without something more than innuendo.  That type of rumor has been around since he was in politics and no proof of any kind has ever been presented.

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## rcjunkie

> That sounds like a libelous statement.  Do you have something to back that up or reason to think that the Transcript would accept a letter alleging something like that?  Legitimate newspapers aren't going to accept tabloid type letters like that without something more than innuendo.  That type of rumor has been around since he was in politics and no proof of any kind has ever been presented.


Some will always insult those more succesfull then they could ever dream of being. If he heard it, it came from his 4th cousion on his 3rd ex-Great Grandmothers side, twice removed.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

It was sarcasm you moron.

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## Easy180

Not sure if it proves enlightenment but the Main st area (especially headed east) is very cool...Definitely done right

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## dismayed

> I am more and more beginning to think this is true, that if you look at all of the cities in Central Oklahoma including OKC, that Norman stands out as the most enlightened, the most sustainable, the most urban, and the best-planned.
> 
> _ESPECIALLY_ if you throw out the UNP quagmire..
> 
> And I fully expect people to balk at calling Norman a suburb, and I didn't mean it, just that it is A city in Central Oklahoma not named OKC.


I think so too.  I love the fact that there's a real thriving network of bars and pubs in Norman... not a bunch of Henry Hudsons crap like in the rest of the metro.  I like the fact that Norman parks actually have trees instead of the barren wasteland that is a typical OKC park.  Campus Corner and Main Street are great areas to walk and shop.  The neighborhoods have sidewalks.  Old houses are painted and taken care of instead of looking like dilapidated blown apart gangland safe houses.  And if you feel like taking part in the suburban nightmare we have 24th Ave.

It could be better, but most neighborhoods are far and above what is typical in the metro.

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## ljbab728

> It was sarcasm you moron.


When you want to use sarcasm it needs to be a little clearer.  Your post was just a blunt statement with no hint of sarcasm even if that's what you meant.  We can't see your smile when you're typing.  Even if you were being sarcastic, it was in poor taste.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

LMAO.  Needs to be clearer? Says who, you the almighty forum patrolman?  I brought up a topic so off base and untrue, I expected you and anyone else to understand that it is all tounge and cheek. But I guess I expected too much from you.  And even if I was being serious, which I wasn't, you need to realize that this is an internet forum.  There are things said much worse directly to posters on forums, and people do not react like you did, because they realizee that its on the damn internet.  But maybe you are just old and out of touch with these kind of things.

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## triumphrider74

:Fighting40:

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## ljbab728

> LMAO.  Needs to be clearer? Says who, you the almighty forum patrolman?  I brought up a topic so off base and untrue, I expected you and anyone else to understand that it is all tounge and cheek. But I guess I expected too much from you.  And even if I was being serious, which I wasn't, you need to realize that this is an internet forum.  There are things said much worse directly to posters on forums, and people do not react like you did, because they realizee that its on the damn internet.  But maybe you are just old and out of touch with these kind of things.


Age has no bearing on decorum.  And being an internet forum doesn't mean anything goes.  This isn't a chat room.  The topic you mentioned has been brought up by others in other places who believed it to be true so how would we know what you think when you just make a very plain statement with no hint at humor.  And if worse things are said to other posters the moderators are very good about keeping that in line if it goes overboard.  You may not realize that minors read this forum and some semblance of reasonable language and civility is called for.  As for me being out of touch, I assure you I have seen, heard, and been involved in things that would make your toes curl.  Don't assume anything about me.

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## Spartan

> I think so too.  I love the fact that there's a real thriving network of bars and pubs in Norman... not a bunch of Henry Hudsons crap like in the rest of the metro.  I like the fact that Norman parks actually have trees instead of the barren wasteland that is a typical OKC park.  Campus Corner and Main Street are great areas to walk and shop.  The neighborhoods have sidewalks.  Old houses are painted and taken care of instead of looking like dilapidated blown apart gangland safe houses.  And if you feel like taking part in the suburban nightmare we have 24th Ave.
> 
> It could be better, but most neighborhoods are far and above what is typical in the metro.


Exactly.

Also look at how we raised permit fees a few years ago to actually reign in the home building mania.
Also look at how the city will likely not expand any more beyond its current footprint, because of the current land use plan which is actually followed, unlike in OKC.
Also look at how we are moving forward with restoring even more urban corridors, such as Porter Ave.
Also look at how things like fair trade coffee, buy local, free range beef, etc actually mean something in Norman.
Also look at how the Norman City Council passed a resolution condemning OKC recently for some anti-rail moves it made a while back.
Also look at how we as an independent city run an efficient bus system, unlike OKC, and despite not qualifying for federal metro grants (not considered contiguously urbanized yet)
Also look at the quality of landscaping not just on the OU campus but all over the city compared to OKC and Edmond

Could go on and on..

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## BG918

Norman has done a lot of good things but could do a lot more.  Look at Lawrence, Kansas to see how a similar-sized college town on the Plains near a large city should look.

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## ChargerAg

what are all these secrets about norman that the transcript is afraid to write about?

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## Jesseda

i still dont see whats great about norman, there are lot of other cities the size of norman that i have vistited across the u.s and a lot are nicer looking and more organized that norman..

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## soonerfan_in_okc

Man oh man you just don't get it.  Both chat rooms and forums may or may not have moderators, so you don't really make a point when you say this is not a chat room.  And why can I not assume anything about you? You assumed I was being serious about my comment. And based upon your inability to realize that almost anything actually DOES go in a forum, I assumed that you were out of touch with the interwebs.  And unfortunately for you, the seriousness you give this issue only reinforced my opinion.  You having seen, heard, and been involved in things that would make my toes curl do not improve your E-skills.  I am sorry to break your heart but its true.  That would be like me having been to prison, and expecting that experience to make me able to fix engines. The two are simply unrelated.

And regarding those things you have seen and heard, please tell.  Because although I am young, I have also seen, eaten, and been involved in things all around the world that would make you throw up in your mouth.

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## ljbab728

> Man oh man you just don't get it.  Both chat rooms and forums may or may not have moderators, so you don't really make a point when you say this is not a chat room.  And why can I not assume anything about you? You assumed I was being serious about my comment. And based upon your inability to realize that almost anything actually DOES go in a forum, I assumed that you were out of touch with the interwebs.  And unfortunately for you, the seriousness you give this issue only reinforced my opinion.  You having seen, heard, and been involved in things that would make my toes curl do not improve your E-skills.  I am sorry to break your heart but its true.  That would be like me having been to prison, and expecting that experience to make me able to fix engines. The two are simply unrelated.
> 
> And regarding those things you have seen and heard, please tell.  Because although I am young, I have also seen, eaten, and been involved in things all around the world that would make you throw up in your mouth.


This is not the time or place to go into personal issues in either of our lives and I promise you don't want to get in a contest with me about that.  There is virtually nothing that you can say that would shock or surprise me but this forum isn't the place for it.   I have been in chat rooms where any kind of language or discussion is allowed and this isn't one of those in case you haven't noticed.  You know exactly what I'm referring to so don't tell me I didn't make a  point.  I didn't have to assume anything about your comment.  There was nothing in it at all that would make anyone except you assume that it wasn't serious.  When you don't want something you say to be taken seriously, give us some reason to think it isn't.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

How can you be so sure? You do not know me or my history, so it seems pretty ignorant of you to think that.  

And I have been on forums where anything goes just like on a chatroom, so yes, I am telling you that you did not make a point.  Lots of bad things, from racism to making fun of the OKC bombing.  And while this forum is not like that bad, all you have to do is go look on the main board and read the posts of a guy who wants the Ward 5 representative to die in Afghanistan by choking on a bullet.  And he was dead serious.

All you had to do was admit you were wrong by thinking i was serious and then move on.  Instead of that, you tried to fight me on this subject and continue to get PWNED.  If my bluntness was not enough evidence for you to realize i was being sarcastic, then that is your fault, not mine.  So please go away now, save some face, and act like this didnt happen.

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## Spartan

Why don't you PWN him somewhere else than out in the open for us all to see?

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## dismayed

This thread is not only enlightening it is pure pwnage.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

Uber pwnage.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

And Spartan, sorry to steal your thread.  The pwnage was too tempting, and I got carried away

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## Spartan

> And Spartan, sorry to steal your thread.  The pwnage was too tempting, and I got carried away


No problemo. There are a lot of people on here who I too would like to show some pwnage, I know how it is.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

haha, like me I am sure.  We have had our fair share of sparing, needless to say. :Smiley051:

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## soonerfan_in_okc

Back on topic though, I think it is obvious that there is something different about norman than the other suburbs, in a good way of course.  A more educated and artsy feel.  Obviously, the presence of OU plays the major role in this, but there is definitely an unmeasurable quality about norman that the other suburbs do not have.

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## ljbab728

> How can you be so sure? You do not know me or my history, so it seems pretty ignorant of you to think that.  
> 
> And I have been on forums where anything goes just like on a chatroom, so yes, I am telling you that you did not make a point.  Lots of bad things, from racism to making fun of the OKC bombing.  And while this forum is not like that bad, all you have to do is go look on the main board and read the posts of a guy who wants the Ward 5 representative to die in Afghanistan by choking on a bullet.  And he was dead serious.
> 
> All you had to do was admit you were wrong by thinking i was serious and then move on.  Instead of that, you tried to fight me on this subject and continue to get PWNED.  If my bluntness was not enough evidence for you to realize i was being sarcastic, then that is your fault, not mine.  So please go away now, save some face, and act like this didnt happen.


This will be my last post on this subject.  I will admit that I was wrong about thinking you were serious since you have since said you weren't.  I won't admit that I should have known that from your post.  Without knowing you and how you think, nothing in that post would have made me think you weren't serious.  Being blunt is not evidence of sarcasm.

And I know there are inappropriate posts by others here occasionally too.  They usually get castigated for it as they should.

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## Jesseda

yeah the mental hospital, and the little thugs that hand around robinson around the norman regional give this town the educational and artsy side... dont get me wrong norman has great areas, but again there  is plenty of towns this size in america that surpass norman in educational people and artsy crap.. there is no high end shopping in this town, no real attraction except for ou, norman is known mainly for ou, there really is not anything else special..sorryto burst your bubble

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## Easy180

> i still dont see whats great about norman, there are lot of other cities the size of norman that i have vistited across the u.s and a lot are nicer looking and more organized that norman..


Don't think anyone is stating it is one of the best in the US just the best in Central OK

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## soonerfan_in_okc

what is wrong with a mental hospital? I did not know that serving disabled citizens was a bad thing.   And you act like mental hospitals are not common and having one in norman is a bad thing, but trust me they are everywhere. 

And little thugs? Not sure what you mean.  I am in norman for most of the year, and any "little thugs" in norman don't even come close to some i see in OKC when i go home.



When you google the definition of "enlightened" the first definition that comes up reads

Having knowledge and spiritual insight.

So no matter how you try and spin it, the presence of OU undoubtedly gives a presence of knowledge that is not found in any other suburb.  So i do not see how norman isn't the "enlightened" suburb.

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## Bunty

> yeah the mental hospital, and the little thugs that hand around robinson around the norman regional give this town the educational and artsy side... dont get me wrong norman has great areas, but again there  is plenty of towns this size in america that surpass norman in educational people and artsy crap.. there is no high end shopping in this town, no real attraction except for ou, norman is known mainly for ou, there really is not anything else special..sorryto burst your bubble


Hey, don't forget the Bavenger house south of 60th and Robinson designed by famed architect Bruce Goff.  People from all over the world come to go on a tour of that highly unique home that is difficult to adequately describe.

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## ljbab728

And while they do have some affiliation with OU, I would hardly say having the Sam Noble Museum of Natural History and the Fred Jones, Jr. Museum of Art would qualify Norman as having no real attractions.  They are both high class facilities that would be appreciated anywhere in the country.  The fact that Jesseda references "artsy crap" says a lot about his or her point of view.

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## Andrew4OU

> yeah the mental hospital, and the little thugs that hand around robinson around the norman regional give this town the educational and artsy side... dont get me wrong norman has great areas, but again there  is plenty of towns this size in america that surpass norman in educational people and artsy crap.. there is no high end shopping in this town, no real attraction except for ou, norman is known mainly for ou, there really is not anything else special..sorryto burst your bubble


No bubble to burst here.  You speak about Norman and to those who enjoy/like Norman with such angst.  Care to elaborate?  And could you please explain to me what you mean by "thugs?"  Do you mean people who _LOOK_ like thugs?  There's a difference.  Unless you've personally encountered violent, malicious robbers and murderers hanging around Robinson, don't use the word thug so freely.  

I lived in Norman for four years before moving to Moore/SW OKC last year.  I have nothing against Moore/SW OKC, but I decided to move back to Norman after just a year.  For OKLAHOMA, (note that I and the original poster never said anything about other cities in the US) Norman has charm that many other OKC area towns and suburbs (depending on who you ask) do not have.

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## Jesseda

yeah there is thugs, personallly awhile back working for a retail store across from section 8 apartments in norman off alemeda, there are plenty of thugs in norman, some people rally need to open thre enlightened eyes and look around lol, good god....

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## Jersey Boss

> yeah there is thugs, personallly awhile back working for a retail store across from section 8 apartments in norman off alemeda, there are plenty of thugs in norman, some people rally need to open thre enlightened eyes and look around lol, good god....


Care to tell us how you define the word "thugs"? I could use some enlightenment.

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## Bunty

> Don't think anyone is stating it is one of the best in the US just the best in Central OK


But Money magazine ranked Edmond #35 as a better place to live than Norman, which was ranked #70.  And if you want to count Stillwater as part of central Okahoma, Norman  got slightly ranked by Stillwater at #67.

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## Jesseda

yeah bunty you really cant post that since norman residence think that they live in the best town west of the mississippi lol

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## ljbab728

As usual, all of those lists are very subjective.  It really just depends on what criteria is used to compile the list.  If the right kind of data was used, Del City could probably be number one.

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## Spartan

I would contend that the bottom line is that there is NO OTHER city in Central Oklahoma that is even doing anything about sustainability in the way that Norman is.

Ergo, Norman is more "enlightened." If "enlightened" were to be broadened in a sense, I would imagine that Norman would also leap further to the top of the list, in terms of education, culture, music scene, cultivated arts scene, and political views (Norman is easily the most politically diverse place in the state).

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## Jesseda

the last post is so funny...

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## CuatrodeMayo

The premise of this entire thread is funny.

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## Mr T

What is Norman doing about sustainability?

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## Matt

Is Spartan "the enlightened poster?"

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## kevinpate

Norman does have thugs.  You can't have a community of its size and it be thug free.  That's not really possible even for a community 1/10 its size for that matter.

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## Andrew4OU

> the last post is so funny...


Funny... becuase you probably don't understand what Spartan said. It's real easy to spout off snarky comments without having a basis for them. I respectfully understand you disagree with what many are saying about Norman; however, I'm not sure you are doing the same with the way you're responding.  You look like a fool. 

Norman is enlightened in a sense that it brings educated people from not only the entire country, but from all over the world.  I can't remember the stats off the top of head, but I believe 40% of Norman's 25 and over population has a bachelors degree.

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## Jesseda

you are the one who is a fool since you are all worked up about it lol.. get over yourself, maybe you need some blood pressure meds, if this subject is bothering you so much lol. Wow cant believe lil ole me is getting someone who is so educated worked up.. lol.. ps.. there are others one here who are also agreeing with me, so are those people fools as well? I guess we are not in your little enlightened world ( norman)  to understand anything you say.. and andrew4ou since you have only posted 7 post your who time on okctalk 33 % of them being on this subject, I really cant take you serious since you are probably using another account on this board.

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## Bunty

> Is Spartan "the enlightened poster?"


He most certainly is.

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## Andrew4OU

> you are the one who is a fool since you are all worked up about it lol.. get over yourself, maybe you need some blood pressure meds, if this subject is bothering you so much lol. Wow cant believe lil ole me is getting someone who is so educated worked up.. lol.. ps.. there are others one here who are also agreeing with me, so are those people fools as well? I guess we are not in your little enlightened world ( norman)  to understand anything you say.. and andrew4ou since you have only posted 7 post your who time on okctalk 33 % of them being on this subject, I really cant take you serious since you are probably using another account on this board.


No, the others are not fools, because they don't respond with the contempt that you use in your posts.  The post I quoted above is a great example of that. 

And great work and logic, Sherlock.  Because I do not post frequently you assume that I have another alias?  Uhh... Ok.

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## Spartan

> What is Norman doing about sustainability?


Limiting sprawl by artificially inflating the cost of a residential building permit. Actually enforcing areas where development is not recommended due to environmental protection. Creating an inner city that is attracting the majority of new Norman residents now. Encouraging ridership on a bus system that is far more efficient than OKC's much-maligned one. To name a few.

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## Mr T

Thanks!

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## Jesseda

andrew4ou get over yourself, before you got all up in my space, I was  responding to other peoples post as well, not just you.. big headed much lol. this isnt all about you, this was the fact i disagree with what was said at the very start of this subject about it being the best planned urban development, not just your responses, andrew4ou stop jumpin the gun and attacking people when you yourself dont even know what is going on,.this is my last response to you andrew4ou..

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## kevinpate

Anyone recall what the city moms and dads ever decided to do regarding a new library?
I'm brain dead as to whether they intend another vote, have given the idea a final fergitaboutit or are looking for something else to tie it on to in roder to give it stronger support.

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## Mr T

I believe they intend another vote.  I think they scrapped the idea of Main and Porter.  The long-range stormwater plan will eliminate some houses on Acres and the water tower for a large pond-thingie, and the library would go just north, where Rhodes Granary is now.

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## blangtang

the city  bought land for two new fire houses to be built and last i heard were wanting to piggy back some new branch libraries on the same land.

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## Spartan

And apparently I'm "The Enlightened Poster" on here now. So everybody has to agree with what I say and talk about how profound and infinite my wisdom is.

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## kevinpate

> And apparently I'm "The Enlightened Poster" on here now. So everybody has to agree with what I say and talk about how profound and infinite my wisdom is.



Yeah, sadly, enlightened is a whole heck of a lot like being humble.  Once you see that ya is, ya ain't.

Safe travels when you head back north all the same.

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## kevinpate

> I believe they intend another vote.  I think they scrapped the idea of Main and Porter.  The long-range stormwater plan will eliminate some houses on Acres and the water tower for a large pond-thingie, and the library would go just north, where Rhodes Granary is now.



So we'd set the library fairly tight up to the tracks.  Hmmmm, I guess all Story Times for the wee ones can center on the Adventures of Thomas the Train, complete with sound effects.

I love my adoptive town sometimes.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

I think it is reasonable to ask those who feel like norman is not the enlightened suburb which suburb they feel is?

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## ljbab728

> I think it is reasonable to ask those who feel like norman is not the enlightened suburb which suburb they feel is?


Well, Jesseda, who seems to be the main detractor, is from Moore.  I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but what do you suppose the thought process is there?

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## Spartan

> Well, Jesseda, who seems to be the main detractor, is from Moore.  I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but what do you suppose the thought process is there?


The sprawl-fest glory of 19th Street and musical stylings of Sir Toby Keith, maybe?

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## Jesseda

oh good lord, did i post anything about moore being a ideal town, no!! Again I dismiss people jumping the gun lol, I am not from moore lol, I now live in moore back and forth since a child, but I am from the Bay area,the person who posted i am from moore is pretty much a oaf since not even knowing where i truely am from. Moving on to towns around major cities that I think are way better and my idea of a heaven are Brentwood california or discovery bay california...Boy I open up some wounds on this so called  pandora of a town

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## Bunty

So stay in Oklahoma all the time and be blessfully unenlightened to the wonders of the world outside Oklahoma.  But then I've been to 21 states, including California, and unfortunately not all that unenlightened how Oklahoma compares, frequently not as impressive.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

Well then answer my question Jesseda, what is the enlightened suburb?  I gave you the definition of the word "enlightened", which fits norman perfectly.  But of course you ignored it.

And i LMFAO @ you for brining in cities from other states to try and back up your argument.  What do they have to do with norman's enlightenment?

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## Jesseda

you asked "I think it is reasonable to ask those who feel like norman is not the enlightened suburb which suburb they feel is?" good god remember your own post.. I gave you my answer lol.. im glad your city of norman has insight, and are informed, educated and have knowledge, i just gave you my opinion on other cities that are more enlightened than norman is to me...you asked, I answered and now you get upset lol.. but enlightened also means to be open minded which it seems that you are not since you will not listen to what anyone has to say without arguing about it, but this is about a enlightened city not a enlightened person even though a city being called enlightened, is mainly due to enlightened people who live in that city.

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## Matt

Call me crazy, but doesn't the question kind of assume that we're comparing Norman to the rest of the suburbs of OKC, and not to every other suburb on Planet Earth?

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## Jesseda

when he asked yesturday which suburb he didnt state okc suburbs, so i gave him my answer to areas i use to live in.. if he is just asking about the okc metro suburbs that narrows it down to about 6-8 small cities, then it would be a tie between norman and edmond, unless now its narrowed down to just south okc metro then its probably norman lol

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## soonerfan_in_okc

Jesseda, why the hell would i care about suburbs in other cities? Are you that dumb?  I meant suburbs in the OKC area. Maybe you need to take a few classes in logic or critical thinking, and then start posting again.  Because not only do you not make any sense in any of your posts, but the way you type is pretty annoying as well.  You type like my 70 year old grandmother.  

However, I am glad I got an answer out of you.  Now that you say it is a tie between Norman and Edmond, why did you even start arguing in the first place?

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## Jesseda

sooner fan you love to insult dont ya, maybe thats why people love to argue with ya. but your words are hateful, and i dont needs some nasty ugly hearted person posting back to me, so im blocking you. just FYI.. i know it doesnt hurt your fellings ,, like you really have any

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## jmarkross

Norman is as enlightened as any city...that did not sell a house to a black family until after 1965...hmmm...

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## Jesseda

Really... wow..im serious wow, did not know that

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## dmoor82

Just checked out this thread for The first time and WOW there sure is a slugfest goin on in here!

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## Spartan

Can someone explain what puts Edmond on par with Norman for sustainable development?

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## Spartan

> I believe they intend another vote.  I think they scrapped the idea of Main and Porter.  The long-range stormwater plan will eliminate some houses on Acres and the water tower for a large pond-thingie, and the library would go just north, where Rhodes Granary is now.


I'm still sore about the library getting voted down. Main and Porter would have been great. Where are we supposed to put a new library, at UNP?

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## blangtang

> Can someone explain what puts Edmond on par with Norman for sustainable development?


Edmond is greener and more smart growthers live in Edmond.  Plus they have their own electric utility http://edmondok.com/utility/electric

Edmond also rallies together to keep new apartment complexes from being built and destroying property values.  

What more could you want?

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## ljbab728

> sooner fan you love to insult dont ya, maybe thats why people love to argue with ya. but your words are hateful, and i dont needs some nasty ugly hearted person posting back to me, so im blocking you. just FYI.. i know it doesnt hurt your fellings ,, like you really have any


Jesseda, calling someone an oaf isn't exactly a love fest so that works both ways.  I never called you any names or tried to insult you but you did me.  I had read your posts elsewhere talking about growing up in Moore or childhood memories from there so why wouldn't I think you were from there?  Being born somewhere and saying you are from somewhere isn't always considered the same thing.

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## ljbab728

> I'm still sore about the library getting voted down. Main and Porter would have been great. Where are we supposed to put a new library, at UNP?


Spartan, I  was just wondering if you know where the library was before the current one.  It's still there on the East side of Peters a couple of blocks south of Main Street.  It was one block from my grandparents house so I spent a lot of time there as a child.


http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...=12,80.02,,0,5

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## soonerfan_in_okc

> Edmond also rallies together to keep minorities from living in the area and destroying the cookie cutter suburban lifestyle of the upper-middle class white american.


fixed.

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## jmarkross

> Can someone explain what puts Edmond on par with Norman for sustainable development?


Pipe dreams mostly...and the total weight of building materials logged in for construction...CSU's desire to be OU...and--who knows--in another 150 years--they might just make it!

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## jmarkross

> Edmond is greener and more smart growthers live in Edmond.  Plus they have their own electric utility http://edmondok.com/utility/electric
> 
> Edmond also rallies together to keep new apartment complexes from being built and destroying property values.  
> 
> What more could you want?


Reality...Edmond is where all good "progressives" should move...and those "smart growthers" as well...along with the new NIMBY crowd every half-ass suburb conjures up when they get past 50K people...getting haughty about having apartment-dwellers as neighbors--the idea! The average nose in Edmond seems to be just a bit higher in the air--why--is a pure mystery. If one has been around the nation--it is about as ordinary a place as I have ever seen. Sometimes people get giddy once the fast-food establishment explosion overwhelms their senses and creates the Age of Nero--right in their own front yard.

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## jmarkross

> Edmond is greener and more smart growthers live in Edmond.  Plus they have their own electric utility http://edmondok.com/utility/electric
> 
> Edmond also rallies together to keep new apartment complexes from being built and destroying property values.  
> 
> What more could you want?


Good leftys--now if they can get rid of apartment houses....and all the ethnic types...they could host the next dimmycrat national convention! They would fit right in! There is NO NEED for riff-raff in Edmondia! It is the inevitable progression of any college town as it seeks to "be somebody". Maybe an 90,000 seat football stadium, too!

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## jmarkross

> Spartan, I  was just wondering if you know where the library was before the current one.  It's still there on the East side of Peters a couple of blocks south of Main Street.  It was one block from my grandparents house so I spent a lot of time there as a child.
> 
> 
> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...=12,80.02,,0,5


I spent a lot of time there too--at Central Junior High (1961-64) in the olden days--during the Pleistocene when I was young...ate at Tastee Freeze a lot too! And Strick's Bar-B-Q...also one must never forget the whispered about--yet hardly ever spoken about--mythical battle between East/West Norman...not unlike the proverbial battle between the Jukes and the Kallikaks...

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## jmarkross

> Spartan, I  was just wondering if you know where the library was before the current one.  It's still there on the East side of Peters a couple of blocks south of Main Street.  It was one block from my grandparents house so I spent a lot of time there as a child.
> 
> 
> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...=12,80.02,,0,5


I spent a lot of time at the old Carnegie-built library as well...it was always very cold inside during the summer...a great place to recuperate from the heat back in the days when not everywhere had a/c...and Norman was small enough to be totally accessible to kids on bicycles...(~30,000)..smart kids knew where these refuges were and where the best ice-cold water-fountains were...some of the best were screwed onto the sides of Coca-Cola machines in gas stations...

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## Mr T

The new library failed for a number of reasons, the greatest of which was the ability of the citizens to discuss all of the various components on the newspaper forum.  Just like you guys here with all of your various bits of the OKC picture, whether they be zoning or funding or historical value or filing of official papers - you bring the bits of knowledge to the table and a clearer picture emerges.

The new library deserved to fail.  The line of citizen communication has been cut off and I'm pretty sure that all future proposals will be approved.

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## kevinpate

> The new library failed for a number of reasons, the greatest of which was the ability of the citizens to discuss all of the various components on the newspaper forum.  Just like you guys here with all of your various bits of the OKC picture, whether they be zoning or funding or historical value or filing of official papers - you bring the bits of knowledge to the table and a clearer picture emerges.
> 
> The new library deserved to fail.  The line of citizen communication has been cut off and I'm pretty sure that all future proposals will be approved.


With respect, I think you overestimate the power and influence of that former forum, indeed, most forums.

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## Mr T

Quite possible.  Many folk felt it was an important means of communication, outside of the Official Channels, citizen to citizen, brought together by the local newspaper.  Either way it is gone.

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## Bunty

> Norman is as enlightened as any city...that did not sell a house to a black family until after 1965...hmmm...


Wow, so Norman's sundowner custom lasted well into the 1960s?  At other Oklahoma towns, such as Stillwater, they had their own black sections and a black school or two in the city limits, though about that time black schools in Oklahoma towns were being closed for disintegration.  It's disgusting that the past bigotry of not allowing blacks is a part of Norman's history.

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## Jesseda

jbs728, yes i was born in cali, went back and forth (moore to cali) a lot, thats being from a split family does 4 ya. I choose to live in oklahoma with my family because most of my wife and my family lives here and i enjoy it here cost wise( but now houses are comparing to okc metro homes), and being from a town where i did spend a little more than half my childhood is great.

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## dismayed

> Norman is as enlightened as any city...that did not sell a house to a black family until after 1965...hmmm...


Hate to break it to you, but most all of Oklahoma was that way.  In fact Edmond was even worse, not getting rid of their sundown city ordinances until 1974.

Today, Norman is doing all that it can to reverse those days.  In fact the city slogan is, "Building an inclusive community."  They really mean this too, taking it to heart with race, economic level, age, and about everything you can think of.  The city has protected trailer parks and has planned their continued existence, but it also has encouraged the development of million-dollar homes.  The city is an open place for students and the young, but there is also a very large crowd of professionals here, as well as the elderly and disabled who take advantage of our many pedestrian-friendly streets and businesses, as well as bus system.  The city has its conservative places, but also those that are more liberal.  I can't speak for anyone else but those are the reasons I like Norman.

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## blangtang

So do *enlightened* suburbs always vote down water service price hikes or is it a function of the economy we live in today?

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## dismayed

You know what, I'm paying $100+ a month for water and trash.  We just voted for and got a rate hike just three and a half years ago and it was quite a significant one.  So here we are, on the coat-tails of one of the largest increases in rates in recent history (I voted for the last one), during the worst economic times in a hundred years, and the city wants to raise rates again, and they want to raise them for what -- nothing to do with the infrastructure, that's what.  This was to pay for wages and health care costs of the city garbage and water folks.  Check the figures, almost _two thirds_ of this money was to go to exactly that.  

My hats off to them, I am sure they do a terrific job, but now is not the time to be asking for more budget.  I'm sorry, but the city needs to tighten its belt and become more efficient... that is what happens in the real world when your business goes south.  That isn't a matter of "enlightenment," that's just the way it is.

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## kevinpate

> You know what, I'm paying $100 a month for water and trash.  ...


You're not paying dbl my rate, but dang near.  
I suddenly feel like maybe I don't shower near enough.

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## dismayed

> You're not paying dbl my rate, but dang near.  
> I suddenly feel like maybe I don't shower near enough.


Haha.  Well, I think it is probably my sprinkler system that is using all that water up.

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## Spartan

On the Oklahoman's Norman section: "All the news from this progressive city of champions"

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