# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  Is Norman going downhill??

## Spartan

I don't mean to start an incendiary thread off the bat, but I think the question has been raised in several threads, and now it totally warrants its own discussion. I feel as though there are both tangible and intangible ways in which Norman has gone downhill. The biggest way that Norman has gone downhill is from losing the promise and potential that it was showing in 2005, when things were going very well, Norman was looking at an avalanche of great urban development, attracting more good jobs than anywhere else in the metro, the demographics were promising for bringing in retailers that existed nowhere else in the metro, and so on. Above all, Norman in 2005 was the undisputed epicenter of Central Oklahoma's urban professional culture.

Today all of those urban professionals have either moved to Deep Deuce or OKC's inner north side. Norman is losing more good jobs than anywhere else in the metro. Most of that promising development fell flat due to poor city development oversight and a city council that is far more interested in sprawl development at the expense of inner Norman. And now there is no way that Norman will live up to the potential it was showing in 2005.

Campus Corner has held on and remained healthy. Downtown Norman experienced a resurgence between 2005-2009. Now the Norman city council is actively preempting other areas from experiencing urban growth (saying no to high-rise development along Boyd). Furthermore, the only city in Central Oklahoma that used to be anti-sprawl, is now the epicenter of distasteful, low-quality sprawl development. Cheaply-built apartments on NW 36th, bring em on. UNP strip mall instead of a lifestyle center. So on and so forth. 

It is fair to say that Norman is nose-diving. As far as college towns go, Norman used to be unparalleled in Oklahoma. Now Stillwater and Edmond have caught up.

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## ou48A

Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.

Norman leadership has devoted far too much attention to social justice issues and to issues that don’t promote the general prosperity of the great majority of its citizens. Any time they waste time on those things takes away time that would be better spent on bring more and better jobs to Norman.

Norman very badly needs better streets and area highways that go well beyond any current plans.

The good news is that for the most part all that’s really required is a better set of priorities from the city leadership at the top.

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## adaniel

Is Norman going downhill? Not really.

Is Norman at a significant crossroads? Very much so. And I've heard from several people outside this board that the city is stagnating. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say Norman was the center of urban professional culture in OK, because frankly, there has never been all that much white collar employment in Norman. The city, however, was setting itself up nicely to be a nice college town/satellite city hybrid, much like Ann Arbor is to Detroit. Or at least it seemed it was when I first came to Norman in 2004.

Somewhere between now and then, something went very wrong. Not all of it the city's fault. UNP was a bad gamble that blew up in the face of the city because of the 2008 meltdown. They are making the best of it. But I have to ask, why put so much effort into developing an "upscale mall" on the outskirts of the city when (a) Moore was/is clearly winning the "big box" retail battle and (b) Norman had such a great core with its downtown and Campus Corner, both of which could have been drastically improved with only moderate investments and commitment.    

Other things the city has done have been far more troubling. Losing Dell to OKC. Losing Petco to San Antonio. Ignoring badly needed infrastructure improvements. Giving lip service to the eTec business incubator. Not facilitating any sort of office development (such as the 15 story tower proposal) that would lure white collar jobs. If Norman wants to stand on its own and be out of the shadow of OKC its going to have to have some sort of economic base. The massive amount of traffic commuting out of Norman every morning says otherwise.

Cindy Rosenthal is a very nice lady, and I have met her personally. But she really has no vision for the city. Her job is incredibly difficult. She must balance out the wishes of three factions of Norman, the liberal, college town set, the suburban commuters who've moved there over the past 20 years, and the conservative townies that can be found in any Oklahoma county seat.   

I have left Norman 3 years ago and now live in midtown, and at least 2 of my neighbors have done the same thing in the past 18 months. I'm interested to hear what others think can snap the town out of its funk. Maybe a MAP's style slate of projects. What would be included in them?

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## vaflyer

> Cindy Rosenthal is a very nice lady, and I have met her personally. But she really has no vision for the city. Her job is incredibly difficult. She must balance out the wishes of three factions of Norman, the liberal, college town set, the suburban commuters who've moved there over the past 20 years, and the conservative townies that can be found in any Oklahoma county seat.


I believe the city is in need of change in the mayor's office. Cindy Rosenthal is the longest serving member on council (as the mayor and previously as Ward 4 councilmember). The job requires a ton of time and just drains people. Norman needs new blood with new ideas as it is losing the retail war (and the associated sales tax dollars) to Moore. As for jobs, the city is actively chasing that advanced aircraft parts manufacturing facility but, from what I have heard, the manufacturing jobs are nothing great to write home about. Furthermore, the city has gone from #6 best city to live in to somewhere in the 90's (and Moore is now higher) during the Mayor's tenure.

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## OKCisOK4me

no comment

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## Spartan

The problem with throwing Rosenthal under the bus is that she's the only person on the council who actually has the right ideas. However, as a leader, she has been proven beyond inept. Is her job difficult? Sure, but that has only exacerbated the weakness of her leadership as she lets the Tea Party wackadoos on council run over her each week.




> Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.
> 
> Norman leadership has devoted far too much attention to social justice issues and to issues that don’t promote the general prosperity of the great majority of its citizens. Any time they waste time on those things takes away time that would be better spent on bring more and better jobs to Norman.
> 
> Norman very badly needs better streets and area highways that go well beyond any current plans.
> 
> The good news is that for the most part all that’s really required is a better set of priorities from the city leadership at the top.


I think this post kind of highlights the problem with Norman. It's true that there are some very backward forces holding the city back (much like Tulsa, which is also going downhill) while the opposing progressive forces are clearly succeeding in OKC and Stillwater. Norman needs to see itself more as the state's 4th largest city and less as a suburb of OKC.

Norman won't grow and live up to its potential by listening to gripes like, "Grrr, stop with the damn social issues, and the sewage hookup fees, grrr!!" and "Grr, more highways, repave every road, wider roads, grrr!" I absolutely agree that Norman needs to focus on 3 things: 1, what makes it unique (Campus Corner, downtown, and maybe even a willingness to talk about a link between high school gay bashing and teen suicide); 2, Tech, which is the huge missed opportunity; and 3, growing office space, which is absolutely vital to growing the white collar workforce.

I interned in Norman's City Hall several years ago at a time when the progressives were beginning to capitulate. I went to several of the initial meetings on the Porter streetscape plan, and when that was first began several years ago, there was so much optimism around there. Now it's just the "don't give a fu$#" attitude about everything around Norman, and it's just a shame that the only way you can quantify it is in the heaps of lost sales tax revenue to Moore. Which is interesting itself because Moore is so incompetent it's not funny, if you look at their parks proposal (which passed) you can tell they can't envision a quality built environment to save their life. Moore should not be this stiff competition for a city with as much beauty and potential as Norman, but somehow it is.

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## bluedogok

> Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.


$4,000 seems cheap, some of the lots that we looked at here in the Denver area had a $40,000 water/sewage tap fee. Needless to say, we liked the area but didn't buy there.

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## ou48A

When business leaders see a community won’t even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them self’s they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.

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## ou48A

> I believe the city is in need of change in the mayor's office. Cindy Rosenthal is the longest serving member on council (as the mayor and previously as Ward 4 councilmember). The job requires a ton of time and just drains people. Norman needs new blood with new ideas as it is losing the retail war (and the associated sales tax dollars) to Moore. As for jobs, the city is actively chasing that advanced aircraft parts manufacturing facility but, from what I have heard, the manufacturing jobs are nothing great to write home about. Furthermore, the city has gone from #6 best city to live in to somewhere in the 90's (and Moore is now higher) during the Mayor's tenure.


The job performance of the Norman mayor has shown that she cannot deliver quality leadership for the vast majority of residents. She waste too muchof her time trying to make Norman an inclusive community and on social justice issues than with the bottom line issues of making the community more business friendly and more prosperous for the vast majority of the population.

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## Spartan

> The job performance of the Norman mayor has shown that she cannot deliver quality leadership for the vast majority of residents. She waste too muchof her time trying to make Norman an inclusive community and on social justice issues than with the bottom line issues of making the community more business friendly and more prosperous for the vast majority of the population.


What do you have against a public discussion about high school bullying/gay bashing = teen suicide ??

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## ou48A

> What do you have against a public discussion about high school bullying/gay bashing = teen suicide ??



There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back  in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.  

 It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population. 
Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.

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## Soonerus

Frankly, as a suburb Norman is doing fine, thank you very much !!!

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## blangtang

> When business leaders see a community won’t even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them self’s they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.


One way Norman went downhill is starting a few years ago when the City had a pot of money solely dedicated to building "speed humps".  The first I remember are around the campus area.  Soon other neighborhoods began competing to be the next in line to have "speed humps" littered all along the neighborhood roadways. It got so bad that the drivers of firetrucks and ambulances began complaining that it was a nuisance and impediment to fulfilling their job duties.  Thats just one example from recent memory.

Another example would be the confusing issue of how the ambulances were unable to bring west Norman resident to the hospital over on the central/east part of town, so it was deemed necessary to build that underpass thing to facilitate this problem.  But as time went on, funds were secured, housed and businesses were demo'd to complete the project.  But by the time the underpass was recently finished, the Norman Hospital decided to go plan and build that big new Hospital on the Northwest side of town.  

But besides the rest of it, hasn't Norman always been run by bankers, land developers and builiders?  I thought so, and the brief moment in time of OU professor David Ray being on council, then Cindy taking over for him in ward 4 , and eventually becoming Mayor as a blip instead of some sort of inclusive liberal hippie college town on a hill vision of the OP.  I would venture a guess that  Norman will NOT be electing any OU professors any time soon, and I didn't have a problem with Cindy and her ilk.

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## bluedogok

> When business leaders see a community wont even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them selfs they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.


It doesn't always work that way, leadership in Austin for awhile during the first wave of the tech boom decided if they didn't expand or build new roads people would quit moving there because it was so congested....that didn't seem to work too well. A few elections later more business friendly people were elected but not much was done for roads.

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## Spartan

> There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back  in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.  
> 
>  It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population. 
> Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.


I absolutely agree. Then that's the issue. I don't know what taking up social issues has to do with this, because I assure you that doesn't take longer than the 3 meetings needed to pass some meaningless resolution anyway. And now, I guess a bit more time because one of the Tea Party wackadoos wants to be ON RECORD supporting high school bullying/gay bashing.

Norman's elected leadership is pretty worthless on economic development.

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## venture

> I absolutely agree. Then that's the issue. I don't know what taking up social issues has to do with this, because I assure you that doesn't take longer than the 3 meetings needed to pass some meaningless resolution anyway. And now, I guess a bit more time because one of the Tea Party wackadoos wants to be ON RECORD supporting high school bullying/gay bashing.
> 
> Norman's elected leadership is pretty worthless on economic development.


Dave Spaulding will hopefully be gone after the council elections this year. Though I'm sure him and his wife will still be there bashing away with the rest of their backwoods friends.

Overall yes...the city has become stagnant the last few years. The explosion of Moore's retail area is a huge hurt to UNP. However, they have the benefit of all that wide open area right on the south side of OKC. That additional 15-20 minutes down 35 probably hurts us more than we realize. All in all, I still really love the city but I do wish there were more places to work down here. However, I would have zero intention of leaving my current company for one down here. I'll likely move before that would ever happen.

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## gamecock

> One way Norman went downhill is starting a few years ago when the City had a pot of money solely dedicated to building "speed humps".  The first I remember are around the campus area.  Soon other neighborhoods began competing to be the next in line to have "speed humps" littered all along the neighborhood roadways. It got so bad that the drivers of firetrucks and ambulances began complaining that it was a nuisance and impediment to fulfilling their job duties.  Thats just one example from recent memory.
> 
> Another example would be the confusing issue of how the ambulances were unable to bring west Norman resident to the hospital over on the central/east part of town, so it was deemed necessary to build that underpass thing to facilitate this problem.  But as time went on, funds were secured, housed and businesses were demo'd to complete the project.  But by the time the underpass was recently finished, the Norman Hospital decided to go plan and build that big new Hospital on the Northwest side of town.  
> 
> But besides the rest of it, hasn't Norman always been run by bankers, land developers and builiders?  I thought so, and the brief moment in time of OU professor David Ray being on council, then Cindy taking over for him in ward 4 , and eventually becoming Mayor as a blip instead of some sort of inclusive liberal hippie college town on a hill vision of the OP.  I would venture a guess that  Norman will NOT be electing any OU professors any time soon, and I didn't have a problem with Cindy and her ilk.


I'm not sure I agree with these examples. We have a problem with speeding in our neighborhood, and our neighbors signed a petition asking for speed humps to be put in. It hasn't completely solved the problem, but the situation is much better now.

Likewise, regardless of where Norman Regional decided to locate their new hospital, we desperately needed that underpass. It was ridiculous that a town the size of Norman did not have a major route that was not blocked by the trains that come through.

UNP has not developed as quickly as I had hoped, but I think a lot of that is attributable to the economy. Moreover, people continue to be confused about how it was supposed to unfold. Just ONE part of the development, the lifestyle center, was ever supposed to be upscale. Still, I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.

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## kevinpate

> ... I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.


I can readily agree with the latter part of this.  As to the food options, how many are needed?  There's at least eight already, excluding any options at the conference hotel (Logan's, Chedders, Zio's, Five Guys, PEI WEI, Panda Express, Qdoba, Chipotle. There's also a Starbucks and an ice cream place. Just south of Logan's across Robinson are Carl's, Sonic and T-bell and a Marco's. The Homeland Deli has both hot and cold prepped food as well. Don;t recall what Target does or doesn't offer. No small number of choices in that 3/4 mile stretch.

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## gamecock

> I can readily agree with the latter part of this.  As to the food options, how many are needed?  There's at least eight already, excluding any options at the conference hotel (Logan's, Chedders, Zio's, Five Guys, PEI WEI, Panda Express, Qdoba, Chipotle. There's also a Starbucks and an ice cream place. Just south of Logan's across Robinson are Carl's, Sonic and T-bell and a Marco's. The Homeland Deli has both hot and cold prepped food as well. Don;t recall what Target does or doesn't offer. No small number of choices in that 3/4 mile stretch.


I meant real restaurants, not fast food or fast-casual. Zio's was a good addition, but that mattress store by Logan's should probably be something like TGI Friday's. I was disappointed that Chuy's decided to locate right next to Ted's along the Interstate rather than in the UNP area.

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## Spartan

> I'm not sure I agree with these examples. We have a problem with speeding in our neighborhood, and our neighbors signed a petition asking for speed humps to be put in. It hasn't completely solved the problem, but the situation is much better now.
> 
> Likewise, regardless of where Norman Regional decided to locate their new hospital, we desperately needed that underpass. It was ridiculous that a town the size of Norman did not have a major route that was not blocked by the trains that come through.
> 
> UNP has not developed as quickly as I had hoped, but I think a lot of that is attributable to the economy. Moreover, people continue to be confused about how it was supposed to unfold. Just ONE part of the development, the lifestyle center, was ever supposed to be upscale. Still, I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.


I completely agree with you that the traffic calming mechanisms are a good thing to have - that's a streetscape amenity for neighborhoods, and also a quality of life amenity. I also agree the underpass was necessary, and perhaps that was one thing that gave Moore such an advantage (19th Street's BNSF underpass). Having to stop for so long so often for so many trains just couldn't go on.

As for UNP, I disagree there. You're right, it was supposed to be part strip mall and part lifestyle center. The project however was sold to voters (to get the TIF) on the lifestyle center which is now years behind schedule and probably never going to happen. That lifestyle center was why I, as a Norman voter at that time, voted YES on the TIF. I wish I hadn't, even if that nixed the hotel. UNP is an absolutely failure of oversight because the city did not leverage strip mall expansion approval to force the developers to either get serious about the lifestyle center, or knock the whole project off. The developer pulled the ole switcharoo on the city, which got stuck holding the tab for a lovely "park" for the strip mall.

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## ereid

Just a side note: Chuy's could not build in UNP because of the architectural requirements...

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## ou48A

I don’t like the speed bumps and I especially don’t like the traffic circles. The city installed too many of these.

2 or 3 years ago somebody on the city council said that a study indicated that traffic calming devices cost more lives than they save. They delay the response times to emergencies, cause vehicle damage and in some cases damage city property. I would have rather hired more police for better enforcement.

On a personal note: About 3 years ago before he died I was driving my then 90 year old father someplace and drove over a traffic calming devise at what I thought was a very reasonable speed for him of about 20 mph. My dad was a tough old man (WWII combat decorated) but he complained about the jarring impact this had on his arthritic body. I can only imagine the physical pain these traffic devices have needlessly caused to our elderly population.

When things like this are done by supposedly smart well educated people it’s clear to see that some decisions that have been made by Norman leadership have not been well thought out. It also shows us on matters such as this how great common sense still trumps any amount of education or credentials

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## ou48A

I am OK with the underpass, but a far better visionary solution would have been to bury the train tracks.

This would have improved the quality of life for far more people in Norman with lower traffic congestion but also lower sound levels. It would have helped property values and improved the desirability of living and working in central Norman.

*We need to be thinking in bolder ways with our area streets and highways.*

But it’s not too late to bury the train ……We could still lower the tracks south of Robinson to south of Lindsey and improve our quality of life.

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## Dubya61

> Frankly, as a suburb Norman is doing fine, thank you very much !!!


Yeah, but is that all Norman is?  A suburb?  I think Norman should aspire to be the center of the Metro!  I think all of the metro entities should aspire to be the center of the Metro.  It might be a little misplaced in some instances (say, Vally Park, or whatever the den of strip clubs and CRM calls itself), but it's still a good aspiration and Norman probably has a better claim to that aspiration than any.  Norman has so much potential and although it's probably not going downhill, it certainly is failing to thrive as it could.  Spartan has a very valid question.

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## Spartan

> I don’t like the speed bumps and I especially don’t like the traffic circles. The city installed too many of these.
> 
> 2 or 3 years ago somebody on the city council said that a study indicated that traffic calming devices cost more lives than they save. They delay the response times to emergencies, cause vehicle damage and in some cases damage city property. I would have rather hired more police for better enforcement.
> 
> On a personal note: About 3 years ago before he died I was driving my then 90 year old father someplace and drove over a traffic calming devise at what I thought was a very reasonable speed for him of about 20 mph. My dad was a tough old man (WWII combat decorated) but he complained about the jarring impact this had on his arthritic body. I can only imagine the physical pain these traffic devices have needlessly caused to our elderly population.
> 
> When things like this are done by supposedly smart well educated people it’s clear to see that some decisions that have been made by Norman leadership have not been well thought out. It also shows us on matters such as this how great common sense still trumps any amount of education or credentials


Arthritic old bodies should not be driving vehicles. Sorry.

People used to drive 40 mph through the streets in Chautauqua. I remember a child being killed by a collision once a few years ago. The traffic calming mechanisms are a good idea. They also have the intrinsic benefit of saying, "This is a nice neighborhood, we have nice things here, please slow down." The traffic circles are even better at that. I always thought that the circle on East Main would be a great place for urban development (especially if/when/ever the Porter Avenue streetscape becomes a vibrant eastside activity spine) - I wish the City of Norman would actively pursue redevelopment along there.

I know of the one on East Main... a few located inside neighborhoods/developments, remind me did the City implement more of the circles or was that just talk?

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## kevinpate

East Main ... not recalling any others on the primary N/S or E/W roads.  Some in newer neighborhoods, mainly west-side are the only other ones which spring to mind.  Speed bumps in several neighborhoods, but all requested by residents I think.  They could use repainting but they are fine otherwise.

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## ou48A

> *Arthritic old bodies should not be driving vehicles*. Sorry.
> 
> People used to drive 40 mph through the streets in Chautauqua. I remember a child being killed by a collision once a few years ago. The traffic calming mechanisms are a good idea. They also have the intrinsic benefit of saying, "This is a nice neighborhood, we have nice things here, please slow down." The traffic circles are even better at that. I always thought that the circle on East Main would be a great place for urban development (especially if/when/ever the Porter Avenue streetscape becomes a vibrant eastside activity spine) - I wish the City of Norman would actively pursue redevelopment along there.
> 
> I know of the one on East Main... a few located inside neighborhoods/developments, remind me did the City implement more of the circles or was that just talk?


Apparently you didn’t read my post very well because I said *“I was driving”!*

And according to a study cited by a Norman city council member the traffic calming devices kill more people than they save.  Are we just supposed to ignore the city councils over reaction to one heart breaking event?

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## ou48A

> East Main ... not recalling any others on the primary N/S or E/W roads.  Some in newer neighborhoods, mainly west-side are the only other ones which spring to mind.  Speed bumps in several neighborhoods, but *all requested by residents* I think.  They could use repainting but they are fine otherwise.


I can assure you the vast majority of people in my area of north west Norman do not want or like the traffic circles or traffic calming bumps in our area.

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## blangtang

Overall I don't think Norman is going downhill, but I do think without OU, Norman would be just another hellish suburb. OU keeps pushing things forward in the campus area, and I sometimes wonder if the high water mark will have been reached if and when Boren retires.  But thats another thing...

Maybe some momentum has been lost recently with the widespread disappointment of UNP, that was a big thing at the time and the vision and expectations were high.  Oh and that Rock Creek bridge over I-35 seems really pointless to me, but I don't live in that part of Norman, maybe ou48a likes to comment on that.

Another thing that comes to mind was the "no" vote on the new downtown library project.  For whatever reason, the people just didn't buy into it, and that project would have had the ability to transform and maybe extend redevelopment in the downtown/Main Street/Porter.  Now it appears a new downtown library has been shelved for the time being...

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## jedicurt

The traffic circles don't bother me at all, when they are installed correctly.   The one near my house they just slapped in the middle of the intersection then didn't understand why the low laying areas for water flow where getting all torn up with the traffic having to drive in them now.... finally after about a dozen horribly done patch jobs, they came and ripped out the problem areas and repoured the strip of concrete and that seems to have finally corrected the problem.

As for the speed bumps.  well, they scrap the bottom of my girl friends Firebird (which while low to the ground is still at it's factory height). so i can just imagine how many other people are getting their vehicles damaged by these.

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## ou48A

> Overall I don't think Norman is going downhill, but I do think without OU, Norman would be just another hellish suburb. OU keeps pushing things forward in the campus area, and I sometimes wonder if the high water mark will have been reached if and when Boren retires.  But thats another thing...
> 
> Maybe some momentum has been lost recently with the widespread disappointment of UNP, that was a big thing at the time and the vision and expectations were high.  *Oh and that Rock Creek bridge over I-35 seems really pointless to me, but I don't live in that part of Norman, maybe ou48a likes to comment on that.*Another thing that comes to mind was the "no" vote on the new downtown library project.  For whatever reason, the people just didn't buy into it, and that project would have had the ability to transform and maybe extend redevelopment in the downtown/Main Street/Porter.  Now it appears a new downtown library has been shelved for the time being...


There are probably more important projects in Norman that were needed first but the Rock Creek Bridge helps relieve congestion on Robinson from NW 36th to NW 24th. Years from now when Norman has grown a great deal bigger this bridge will seem a lot smarter.
I don’t remember the details but I believe the developer of the UPN was required to pay a significant part of the cost of this bridge.
I have been critical of Norman leaders but in fairness to them the decision to build the Rock Creek Bridge is the type of forward thinking we need more of on projects city wide. 

We don’t need to wait until a problem is so bad that it limits our options.

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## ou48A

> The traffic circles don't bother me at all, when they are installed correctly.   .


I have seen several large moving company trucks that have had difficulty negotiating around the traffic circles in my part of town…. I have also seen several people having problems in winter weather. In each case I have seen monetary damage done both to the vehicles and to the traffic circle signs.

I have seen fire trucks and ambulances slowing way down to make their way around them. 
If I had voted for these traffic devices would really hate to be confronted by somebody who had additional damage caused to their home while it burned or by a family member of a heart attack victim.

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## Bunty

The city of Norman should attract more business and industry by offering health insurance for everyone who works there.  You would get your insurance premiums tacked onto your utility bill every month.  Don't live in Norman but work there?  No problem.  You would get it taken off your paychecks.  Prospective employers would surely love the idea of no longer having to worry about offering health insurance to their workers.  However, I don't know of any other city doing this, or if it would even be considered feasible.

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## venture

Norman is going to continue to struggle a little bit as it keeps spreading out. We keep seeing the suburban area of Norman, which is the more conservative areas, that are probably transplants from elsewhere in the Metro that want it to be a suburb. Then you have those in the core, the blue area of Norman, that wants to keep it the small college town feel. The trick is getting a good balance between the two.

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## Spartan

> Apparently you didn’t read my post very well because I said *“I was driving”!*
> 
> And according to a study cited by a Norman city council member the traffic calming devices kill more people than they save.  Are we just supposed to ignore the city councils over reaction to one heart breaking event?


Which city council member?

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## Spartan

> The city of Norman should attract more business and industry by offering health insurance for everyone who works there.  You would get your insurance premiums tacked onto your utility bill every month.  Don't live in Norman but work there?  No problem.  You would get it taken off your paychecks.  Prospective employers would surely love the idea of no longer having to worry about offering health insurance to their workers.  However, I don't know of any other city doing this, or if it would even be considered feasible.


Uh no.

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## Dubya61

Why not?  What a radically fresh way to embrace what is Norman's different culture.

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## jedicurt

> The city of Norman should attract more business and industry by offering health insurance for everyone who works there.  You would get your insurance premiums tacked onto your utility bill every month.  Don't live in Norman but work there?  No problem.  You would get it taken off your paychecks.  Prospective employers would surely love the idea of no longer having to worry about offering health insurance to their workers.  However, I don't know of any other city doing this, or if it would even be considered feasible.


I must agree with Spartan....

umm, no

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## Bunty

> I must agree with Spartan....
> 
> umm, no


Why not?  Because it would be impossible for the city of Norman to offer as low priced insurance premiums than private employers, therefore not really a good deal?  At any rate, I don't see why employers need to be in the health insurance business any more than they need to offer car and home insurance.

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## mcca7596

> At any rate, I don't see why employers need to be in the health insurance business any more than they need to offer car and home insurance.


Interesting point. Only thing I can deduce is that ultimately one's health is most affected by their jobs in terms of hours spent doing an all too often non-enjoyable task (which equals stress).

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## jedicurt

> Why not?  Because it would be impossible for the city of Norman to offer as low priced insurance premiums than private employers, therefore not really a good deal?  At any rate, I don't see why employers need to be in the health insurance business any more than they need to offer car and home insurance.


Because i live in norman, and work outside.  so would they allow me to opt out?  no, they wouldn't.  and i would want to.  because i happen to work for a company that provides me with very affordable and good health insurance.   

The reason they wouldn't let me opt out is that is how they get the low premiums that they would be able to offer.  by requiring everyone to be involved and paying.   plus (under your plan) we would be tacking it onto the utility bill.  so who collects that? are we putting that burden on the utility companies?  is the city of Norman going to have to create a group specifically to collect this tacked on payment? how many people, and at what salary? is it per household cost or per person?  if it is per person, who goes Door to Door to verify the number of people covered in each home?  What about college kids that live in the dorms? are they not covered? or do we tack theirs on to their student fees and make the University hand over that money? now what about Students that are paying the utility tax, do they have to now show a utility bill when they pay their tuition so that they don't get double taxed? (the university won't like the added step, i can assure you).   And for those that live outside of norman but work here... you said that the employer would have to take it out of their paychecks, sounds like a lot of extra work for a payroll clerk to me.  

And these are the issues i was immediately able to think of.   i'm sure there are many many more once you actually sit down and start trying to write it up for implimentation

Sure your idea sounds great from a distance looking down on it.   But it gets significantly more complicated the moment you get close to it.  The added bureaucracy and "burdens" that the city would have to put onto utility companies along with the University would be difficult to get passed, approved, and implemented.

----------


## vaflyer

> Oh and that Rock Creek bridge over I-35 seems really pointless to me, but I don't live in that part of Norman...


I use the Rock Creek overpass daily. It does relieve traffic on the Robinson and Tecumseh overpasses, both of which are very busy especially during rush hour.

In the original UNP TIF, the city was supposed to use $15 million from the TIF to buy the conference center from the hotel. When the hotel was nearing completion, the hotel operator agreed to let the city out of its obligation to buy the conference center in exchange for using those TIF funds to build the Rock Creek overpass.  Originally, the overpass was supposed to cost $14 million, with $7 million coming from the TIF, $4 million from ODOT, and $3 million from other sources. Since the city combined the construction of the part of the bridge over the interstate with the widening of I-35, the city was able to save $1 million in traffic control costs. (The city could not build the approaches at that time because they needed to acquire the right of way and had to move utilities.) The two contracts for the bridge were then let during the depths of the Great Recession so the bridge cost the city around $10 million instead of the estimated $14 million. Thus, smart planning by the city and some dumb luck enabled the city to save a significant sum of money on the overpass and ultimately provided the taxpayers with needed infrastructure at a very reasonable price.

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## Dubya61

> Interesting point. Only thing I can deduce is that ultimately one's health is most affected by their jobs in terms of hours spent doing an all too often non-enjoyable task (which equals stress).


The only reason employers offered health care insurance in the past was because it was an employment incentive.  It became so common place that many began to think of it as a requirement from the employer.  Now, sadly, it is.
Norman could make one HUGE group or exchange and get the business that employ in Norman to pay less to Norman than to the insurance company (and Norman would become one huge insured area).  Norman could then get into bed with Norman Regional and get them to act as an HMO.

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## Just the facts

> And according to a study cited by a Norman city council member the traffic calming devices kill more people than they save.  Are we just supposed to ignore the city councils over reaction to one heart breaking event?


For the record - no one is buying that non-sense.

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## ou48A

> For the record - no one is buying that non-sense.


It was said…. I don’t remember who said it..... but it was talked about.
I saw it on TV during one of the city council meetings.

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## ou48A

It’s pretty clear that common sense is missing with people who think wide scale use of speed bumps save lives.

Ambulance_delays


Patients Killed by Speed Humps (Article published in April 2003)   


The Chairman of the London Ambulance Service, Sigurd Reinton, recently claimed that speed humps are killing hundreds of Londoners by delaying 999 crews. He said “For every life saved through traffic calming, more are lost because of ambulance delays.”  

There are about 8,000 heart attack victims in London every year, and London has a particularly poor survival rate. One reason is no doubt because even a small delay increases the death rate enormously. For example 90% of victims survive if treated within 2 minutes, but it falls to 10% if treatment is delayed for 6 minutes.  So for every additional minute of delay caused, up to an extra 800 victims of cardiac arrest could die. This compares with a total of 300 people who die from traffic accidents.

Mr Reinton complained that the increasing number of anti-car measures such as speed humps, road closures, road narrowing and throttle points caused significant delays in responding to emergencies. Ambulances had to go even slower if carrying a critically ill patient.

Note that Kevin Knight, who is responsible for local London Ambulance services, also spoke against speed bumps using the same arguments at the recent council Environment Portolio holders meeting. He said they were now meeting the government target of reaching 75% of life threatening calls within 8 minutes (Editor: which is not good enough to save most heart attack victims - see above), but it was getting more and more difficult to do so and even a few seconds delay could impact the chance of survival for heart attack victims. Traffic calming features caused significant delays - for example 50% of the ambulances from one station would have had to go through the proposed Leesons Hill “throttle” where there would be queuing traffic.  

*Research in the USA supports these claims. One report from Boulder, Colorado suggests that for every life saved by traffic calming, as many as 85 people may die because emergency vehicles are delayed*. It found response times are typically extended by 14% by speed-reduction measures. Another study conducted by the fire department in Austin, Texas showed an increase in the travel time of ambulances when transporting victims of up to 100%.  

Note that Kathleen Calongne who lives in Boulder, Colorado has produced a note that gives more details on the opposition to speed humps in the USA and includes detail references to the above mentioned research - please contact B.B.R.A.G. if you would like a copy, which is a summary of a 400 page report on the subject of speed humps.  

P.S. The full submission by Sigurd Reinton to the Greater London Assembly Speed Hump Inquiry in early 2004 can be seen at LAS_Report

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## ou48A

> For the record - no one is buying that non-sense.



It’s only a matter of time before lawsuits are filed against city’s who have large numbers of speed bumps…… 
 because as can be seen on this link.....
IMAGE

..... *“even minor delays in emergency vehicle response time is far more detrimental to public health and safety than can be offset by any perceived reduction in spending”.*



The results of 2 different US studies.

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## YO MUDA

I like the speed humps in my area, keeps my grandkids and the neighborhood kids safe from all these wannabe nascar types.

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## Just the facts

Sorry - I see someone is buying it.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

15m speed hump row - Telegraph




> They cite the claims once made by Sigurd Reinton [the same Sigurd Reinton cited above] of the London Ambulance Service that traffic calming costs 500 lives per year. Now, however, Reinton will say only that "lives might be lost", and that he would like more research.

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## ou48A

> I like the speed humps in my area, keeps my grandkids and the neighborhood kids safe from all these wannabe nascar types.


According to 2 different sources the risk of dying from a delayed response is significantly greater than being hit and killed by a car in areas without speed bumps.

There have been several people die in fires just in Norman in the last 10 or 15 years… There are several medical emergencies virtually every day just in Norman where seconds do matter. I hope you never have family member or friend who needs the quickest possible response.

More traffic cops would likly be more effective.

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## Spartan

> According to 2 different sources the risk of dying from a delayed response is significantly greater than being hit and killed by a car in areas without speed bumps.
> 
> There have been several people die in fires just in Norman in the last 10 or 15 years… There are several medical emergencies virtually every day just in Norman where seconds do matter. I hope you never have family member or friend who needs the quickest possible response.
> 
> More traffic cops would likly be more effective.


No, you have one source that claims it saw two sources. 

Norman also did add a ton of police officers, as if it needed more.

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## rcjunkie

The suggestion that these said speed bumps reduce travel time or create a hazard is pure BS. My daughter lives in a W. Norman addition that has these speed tables and you can safely travel over them at the posted speed limit. These bumps/tables are designed to slow down speeders, not make traffic go slower then the posted speed limit.

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## bluedogok

All the "speed tables" that I have ever encountered would beat you or the car to death if you tried to take them at the posted speed. The front end end of my car would scrape on the ones in our neighborhood in Austin if I went more than 10-15 mph.

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## Spartan

I like using speed tables for traffic calming more than excessive stop signs or worse, stop lights that take minutes to turn green.

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## catch22

Narrow the streets, add on street parking. People will drive slower.

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## kevinpate

> All the "speed tables" that I have ever encountered would beat you or the car to death if you tried to take them at the posted speed. The front end end of my car would scrape on the ones in our neighborhood in Austin if I went more than 10-15 mph.


urban tanks solve that issue. love mine, old though it may be.

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## soonerguru

> There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back  in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.  
> 
>  It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population. 
> Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.


This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.

The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.

Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more. 

Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot. (And by the way, growing up, Norman was just as weird if not weirder in some ways than Austin!).

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## Bunty

> This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.
> 
> The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.
> 
> Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more. 
> 
> Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot.


It's very easy to see why Norman is happy with the way things are, considering it has a population growth rate that surpasses 15% since 2000.  Most cities would dearly wish to be in that position.

----------


## soonerguru

Another thought: the "progressives" in Norman (and I consider myself progressive), are often anti-development. The flip side to them is the "develop at all costs" faction. It's a weird dichotomy. 

The bumper sticker "Don't Edmond My Norman" came out about 20 years too late. Decisions were made in the early '90s that have led Norman to where it finds itself today -- another suburb.

Because the city never viewed itself as a city, it never focused on job creation. As a result, Norman can only sustain itself as a university town / suburb. 

The right leadership could change this, but entrenched interests create major obstacles. 

Also, the young, "hip" crowd is either politically disengaged or transient. It's correct that the bankers and developers pretty much control the city's direction, with some substanceless bones like "inclusiveness" thrown toward the hippies and intellectuals. 

I agree with the poster above that I dread Boren's retirement.

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## soonerguru

> It's very easy to see why Norman is happy with the way things are, considering it has a population growth rate that surpasses 15% since 2000.  Most cities would dearly wish to be in that position.


True, but this growth is almost entirely suburban in nature; this is not the kind of "growth" I think people are talking about here.

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## ou48A

> The suggestion that these said speed bumps reduce travel time or create a hazard is pure BS. My daughter lives in a W. Norman addition that has these speed tables and you can safely travel over them at the posted speed limit. These bumps/tables are designed to slow down speeders, not make traffic go slower then the posted speed limit.


Then I would strongly suggest that you talk to those who drive vehicles with heavy suspensions systems.
I have driven many miles in heavy trucks. I know how they handle, even on rough lease roads. I live on a corner lot were when working in my yard I have seen many different facials slowing down to negotiate several speed tables that are with in eye sight of my yard.
I have talked to the drivers of ambulances and fire trucks. The ambulance drive must slow down when they have an injured patient to prevent trauma and also so they don’t cause injuries to their personnel.
This I assure you is no BS issue for them. But if you don’t know any better, it might be.

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## ou48A

> This is not new. Norman has never viewed job creation as a central goal. The chamber is good for passing out biz cards. There's no really organized, focused group geared toward economic development.
> 
> The city's leadership has always been more blandly conservative than the community overall. Seriously doubt Rosenthal's focus on inclusiveness has hampered Norman's growth so much as the inertia and sense of "happy the way it is" sentiments that most Norman residents have. I left nearly two decades ago because city leadership was so backward.
> 
> Norman and Tulsa are interesting corollaries. Both communities have large numbers of residents who are happy with the way things are and desire no change. OKC was in a far different place; it was so bad that everyone got on board for change, and as change has occurred, people want even more. 
> 
> Think about the OU t-shirt I see on sale in Norman: "Keep Norman Normal." While obviously a hamfisted retort to Austin, it explains a lot. (And by the way, growing up, Norman was just as weird if not weirder in some ways than Austin!).


To the extent that Rosenthal's has focus on inclusiveness it has hampered Norman's growth. Quality job growth sure doesnt seem to be a priority for her or the city of Norman. By being distracted even by just one minute from making Norman economically stronger it hurts everybody, including the inclusiveness community.
It should be the number one goal and normal practice of city leaders to work hard for a diversity of quality jobs. This includes making Norman the most attractive location for new and relocating business.
City leadership has correctly heard the complaint that Norman is the most difficult place in Oklahoma to do business. It should be a priority to remove this fact / perception.

This is more about misguided prioritys that really don't work toward directly helping the vast majority of Norman residents.

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## soonerguru

> To the extent that Rosenthal's has focus on inclusiveness it has hampered Norman's growth. Quality job growth sure doesnt seem to be a priority for her or the city of Norman. By being distracted even by just one minute from making Norman economically stronger it hurts everybody, including the inclusiveness community.
> It should be the number one goal and normal practice of city leaders to work hard for a diversity of quality jobs. This includes making Norman the most attractive location for new and relocating business.
> City leadership has correctly heard the complaint that Norman is the most difficult place in Oklahoma to do business. It should be a priority to remove this fact / perception.
> 
> This is more about misguided prioritys that really don't work toward directly helping the vast majority of Norman residents.


You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts? 

Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.

I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.

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## venture

> You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts? 
> 
> Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.
> 
> I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.


I think it is interesting to note that the head of the Norman Chamber put his hat in the ring today for mayor next year. I wonder how well he'll handle the whole forged Switzer letter? Sounds like a swell guy to trust there!

I don't get his hostility towards the inclusive thing either. Norman is a very mixed town. Politically it is pretty well balanced...it was still favoring Romney by 55 to 45. However when you look at Norman, the core of Norman from I-35 on the west , Tecumseh on the North, East 24th to the West, and Highway 9 on the south is solidly democrat. Around that is very red. We could very well be looking at all these suburban transplants, that typically go to these other rim areas, are the more conservative bunch that don't agree with the mushy inclusive policies. Whereas the longer time residents of Norman and the college kids in the Central sections are more liberal side with the inclusive/melting pot ideals.

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## johnpwoods

[QUOTE=venture79;599059]I think it is interesting to note that the head of the Norman Chamber put his hat in the ring today for mayor next year. I wonder how well he'll handle the whole forged Switzer letter? Sounds like a swell guy to trust there!

I wanted to correct the comment above.  First, Mr. Sherman was the Chairman of the Board (a volunteer position) for the Norman Chamber three years ago.  Neither myself as the President and CEO of the Norman Chamber, nor our current Chair of the Board or our Board members are running for mayor.  Finally the Switzer letter you mention was a product of the State Chamber of Commerce, of which is a complete and separate entity.  

Finally - economic development and creating a healthy vibrant community is the responsibility of many parties.  Business leaders, community activists, the city government, the Chamber, non profits..etc etc.  I believe our Chamber has and will continue to be a strong advocate for those things that make Norman a great community.  We have been heavily involved in advocating for a high density ordinance, pursuing a quality of life package for Norman, pressing the passage of the Transportation Bond Issue, and a host of other issues to lengthy to name in this thread with a meeting I'm heading into. 

I appreciate the great dialogue of OKC TALK

John Woods
President and CEO
Norman Chamber of Commerce

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## venture

> I wanted to correct the comment above.  First, Mr. Sherman was the Chairman of the Board (a volunteer position) for the Norman Chamber three years ago.  Neither myself as the President and CEO of the Norman Chamber, nor our current Chair of the Board or our Board members are running for mayor.


Thanks for clearing that up. The article in the Transcript made it sound like he was the current head.




> Finally the Switzer letter you mention was a product of the State Chamber of Commerce, of which is a complete and separate entity.


So your organization didn't support the passage of SQ 766 then that will raise the taxes on residential property owners?

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## ou48A

> You didn't address the central argument: This has never been a priority of Norman. Even the bankers, developers, "jaycees," etc. have never done more than pay lip service to this. Shouldn't the Chamber of Commerce be directing economic development efforts? 
> 
> Not saying Rosenthal shouldn't do more, but she seems like a fine and responsive mayor to me. You're hanging this all on her neck when no one else has ever done anything of note to develop a sustainable job market there.
> 
> I'm also not understanding your hostility toward "inclusiveness." Companies and entrepreneurs today simply will not locate in communities that do not embrace diversity. For one thing, hostility toward diversity makes it difficult for them to attract key talent. Not sure why you view Norman being recognized as a diverse and welcoming community to people of all stripes is a hindrance to economic development; quite the opposite.


Its not hostility; its about wasting time on miss placed prioritys that wont help 90% of the population in any meaningful way. The city should be prioritizing what helps everybody and thats good jobs that create prosperity and a better community for all and not just a small group.

Whatever is in the past is in the past and it does very little good to look back other than to see that we dont keep making the same mistakes over and over.


This is a bottom line issue. Prosperity cures many problems!

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## kevinpate

> Prosperity cures many problems!


aye, but not all.  Even a well to do person and his family can be subjected to ugly and distasteful discrimination by folks who insist that lemming like adherence to particular perspectives are the one true way to see certain matters.

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## ou48A

> aye, but not all.  Even a well to do person and his family can be subjected to ugly and distasteful discrimination by folks who insist that lemming like adherence to particular perspectives are the one true way to see certain matters.


No doubt that is true, in a very small number of cases. 

But I would bet that for every instance that you speak of that creating 1000’s of new high wage jobs would solve millions of more problems.
This is what I am talking about…. Everybody has problems, but it’s wrong not to give full attention on what helps the vast majority. Great jobs give increased opportunity to all… They allow everyone to address many of their problems. Virtually all of the so called minorities are helped by increased opportunities, are they not?

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## kevinpate

Possibly, though perhaps 4 out of 5 teens/adults bullied to the point of suicide might disagree ... if only someone had thought them worth the time to ask.

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## ou48A

> Possibly, though perhaps 4 out of 5 teens/adults bullied to the point of suicide might disagree ... if only someone had thought them worth the time to ask.


And good jobs can and do help pay for counseling and for many other medical problems that help reduce suicide rates and other deaths.

 Work and a good job is one of the best things to help low self-esteem. 

Prosperity brings increased opportunities for donations that can help find cures and prevent deaths.

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## Questor

Norman's going downhill because its planning commission and city council are a dysfunctional mess.  Having set through more of both meetings than I ever care to again, and watching discussion about not just issues I care about but everything going in front of them, it is really kind of scary some of the things I have noticed.  Often times it seems like planning commissioners just ignore residents who come to speak.  On one or two occasions I've seen one jackass even laughing and more or less being extremely rude to an older resident who was clearly nervous but trying to exercise her political right to speak about whatever it was she was there for.  I've watched planning commissioners make googly eyes to lawyers for developers that they clearly knew and were 'empathing' messages to during deliberations.  I have never, ever seen these types of things happen in OKC.

I don't even care to address city staff.

As for the city council... after watching many votes go down, I sometimes wonder if the east and west sides of town truly hate one another.  Watching voting patterns on the horseshoe could leave one with the impression that one side is out to sabotage the other.  I think perhaps though that the true story is that they are just of such different mindsets that they simply never agree on anything.  

I don't see how a city ripe with such bureaucratic nonsense could ever be successful in anything.  I think it explains a lot as to what has been going on recently around town.

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## Bunty

If Norman has a ward system of city government, then maybe that hinders progress.

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## Questor

You know the reality is that Norman's city government isn't structured all that differently from OKC's... it's a ward based system with a figurehead mayor and a professional city planner doing most of the work.  There are various commissions making recommendations up to the city council.  I actually don't think the structure is the problem.  I think it's a people problem.  I think city staff are just too 'small town,' and I think most of the elected officials are in over their heads.  With respect to the latter I think that is because most of the folks serving have backgrounds in education, or small businesses, and so on... while in OKC and Tulsa you have former broadcast journalists, businessmen, medical professionals, and professional politicians serving.  That can be both good and bad... and it is certainly a refreshing thing having 'normal' people involved in politics, but it can also be a big detriment when you are talking about needing to have some serious forward-thinking momentum present on the horseshoe.  I mean at least OKC goes out and tries to employ people who have very good reputations among big and large cities for its planning staff... I am not sure that Norman has ever made that effort, or that they aren't simply drawing from a small-town focused pool.  Norman's a much smaller town than OKC and I realize that, but at the same time I don't understand why they aren't trying to draw from suburban Dallas or suburban Denver planners instead of middle of nowheresville.  So again I think this goes back to vision, a lack of one, and it having a big impact on Norman.

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## lasomeday

How could Norman go downhill when it never was uphill?

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## ou48A

> How could Norman go downhill when it never was uphill?


Norman has long had many unique qualities that if properly exploited could increase the quality of life for virtually all of its residents.

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## Bunty

> How could Norman go downhill when it never was uphill?


Surely, you jest, like silly.  The total number of housing unit construction permits issued in Norman for 2012 stood at 1010 (314 single family structures) as of the end of September.   Aside from Oklahoma City's total, which is more than twice as big, this 1010 figure is well beyond every other jurisdiction in the metro area and is close to being as big as Tulsa's.  (If you want to get picky over how the numbers break down, Edmond has 435 for single family.) Compare Norman's figure to another major college town, Stillwater, which is only 65.

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## Bunty

> Norman has long had many unique qualities that if properly exploited could increase the quality of life for virtually all of its residents.


Like how?  The Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art is sure fantastic.

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## Monkeypony

i spend lot of time in Ft Collins, Colorado. Ft Collins reminds me alot of Norman, ( but with mountains)  :Smile:  however, what they have done is essentially turned the downtown area into a little hub of shops, restaurants, and basically places to hang out. The main difference i see is that they have closed out traffic in the middle of downtown ( to allow folks to walk! ) What a concept!!!! and they encourage musicians and artists to hang out and dance, play etc for entertainment of the public. They have tablea outside and many places to sit, benches etc. and pets etc are welcomed to sit with their human parents. Consider its alot colder up there near wyoming and we have better weather overall. I think we should cionsider mimicking what they have done to turn their little city into a tourist destination!  ps they have a University too similar to OU and population is similar to Norman.  :Smile:

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## venture

It is an interesting concept to close Main Street and open it up to only pedestrian traffic, but I'm not sure there is any feasible option to redirect the 3 lanes of traffic around. At least not in a safe manner or one that doesn't require a lot of relocating of buildings.

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## HangryHippo

This is probably blasphemy, but what if they closed some of the streets in and around Campus Corner?

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## Bunty

> It is an interesting concept to close Main Street and open it up to only pedestrian traffic, but I'm not sure there is any feasible option to redirect the 3 lanes of traffic around. At least not in a safe manner or one that doesn't require a lot of relocating of buildings.


Tulsa tried that, but it didn't work out.

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## venture

> Tulsa tried that, but it didn't work out.


Doesn't meant it won't work in another city. I've seen it in several and where its worked out pretty well. However, it is going to have to come down on a city by city basis. Just because something didn't work in Tulsa doesn't mean it wouldn't work in Norman. Tulsa is by far not a model city for anyone else. Each city is different and it has to be evaluated that way.

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## Buffalo Bill

Pedestrian malls have been enormously successful in college towns.  Iowa City, Ann Arbor, Boulder, Charlottesville, Madison, and as mentioned above, Fort Collins.  Campus corner may be the best place to do it in Norman.

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## soonerguru

The pedestrian mall is not the magic bullet to improve Norman. Such concepts are largely passe and were envisioned in the Eighties. We've moved on from them. Campus Corner is fine with cars but Norman needs to create a more vibrant urban core. The problem is the city leadership still doesn't view Norman as a city. 

WHY is Norman one of the only major university towns in the United States without hotels adjacent to the university? 

WHY is there not more high-density, quality housing being constructed in the inner core?

Norman is S-L-O-W to change. But it is also a sleeping giant. It used to be the best city in the state for quality of life but it is lagging behind OKC and Tulsa now. Quality planning with an emphasis on rebuilding the city's core could make an immeasurable impact.

The city leadership (developers and bankers) have developed West Norman to the exclusion of everything else. They need to quit focusing on this (this area will develop regardless) and focus on what to do to transition the central core into a more dense, vibrant area. They have more to work with than 99% of Oklahoma towns and they are squandering it.

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## kevinpate

Is it really squandering if the majority of inner core folk actively resist significant changes, preferring their existing way of life and sense of community, and elect representatives who support their positions in that regard? Not saying there isn't room for growth and expansion in the interior, but I've met many who seem perfectly fine for new growth to occur elsewhere in the city.

----------


## venture

I think you have to have a balance. Sure the Western part of Norman, especially NW, where it is just another worthless cookie cutter suburb development just makes Norman like any other burb. I really like Central Norman how it is now, but could definitely see more development near Downtown that would include more high density housing. However, I really like the feel of Central Norman and the community. Some people posting how they want Lindsey going to 4 lane through this area would just trash it and they show no regard for the people that actually live there. Driving through there again the other day, there is no way to 4 lane it anyway without removing a significant portion of people's yards, drive ways, and even some buildings...not to mention a ton of trees. Screw that.

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## ou48A

If we turn the main Campus Corner (Asp) streets into a pedestrian mall it’s going to require a very expensive parking solution. We need to think about who would be paying for a parking garage and where it would be located? It makes a pedestrian mall not very likely.

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## ou48A

> The pedestrian mall is not the magic bullet to improve Norman. Such concepts are largely passe and were envisioned in the Eighties. We've moved on from them. Campus Corner is fine with cars but Norman needs to create a more vibrant urban core. The problem is the city leadership still doesn't view Norman as a city. 
> 
> WHY is Norman one of the only major university towns in the United States without hotels adjacent to the university? 
> 
> WHY is there not more high-density, quality housing being constructed in the inner core?
> 
> Norman is S-L-O-W to change. But it is also a sleeping giant. It used to be the best city in the state for quality of life but it is lagging behind OKC and Tulsa now. Quality planning with an emphasis on rebuilding the city's core could make an immeasurable impact.
> 
> The city leadership (developers and bankers) have developed West Norman to the exclusion of everything else. They need to quit focusing on this (this area will develop regardless) and focus on what to do to transition the central core into a more dense, vibrant area. They have more to work with than 99% of Oklahoma towns and they are squandering it.


I don’t think there is any doubt that the OU area could use a major hotel.
I believe that higher end condos that are not near the railroad tracks would do well.

I do believe that quality planning with an emphasis on rebuilding the city's core is needed.... but if this is to occur transportation needs to be modernized and in a very major way. 

Simply put, it takes far too long to make your way in and out of this part of Norman on an everyday bases to make this area very attractive to major new development.

----------


## ou48A

> I think you have to have a balance. Sure the Western part of Norman, especially NW, where it is just another worthless cookie cutter suburb development just makes Norman like any other burb. I really like Central Norman how it is now, but could definitely see more development near Downtown that would include more high density housing. However, I really like the feel of Central Norman and the community. Some people posting how they want Lindsey going to 4 lane through this area would just trash it and they show no regard for the people that actually live there. Driving through there again the other day, there is no way to 4 lane it anyway without removing a significant portion of people's yards, drive ways, and even some buildings...not to mention a ton of trees. Screw that.


It’s so easy to say not to build a needed project, but we seldom see any practical alternatives from the detractors. 



Taking the needed right-of-way from the north side of Lindsey so that it can be brought up to modern day standards is a very practical alternative. Our congestion is a quality of life issue that needs improvement

----------


## venture

> It’s so easy to say not to build a needed project, but we seldom see any practical alternatives from the detractors. 
> 
> Taking the needed right-of-way from the north side of Lindsey so that it can be brought up to modern day standards is a very practical alternative. Our congestion is a quality of life issue that needs improvement


Is it really a quality of life issue when the people in that neighborhood don't want it done? I would think their wishes are more important that someone that lives 3 miles away.

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## ou48A

> Is it really a quality of life issue when the people in that neighborhood don't want it done? I would think their wishes are more important that someone that lives 3 miles away.


The wishes of a couple of dozen people should not trump the wishes of tens of thousands more people who work, live and visit this part of Norman on a regular bases.

As a University the congestion hinders OUs growth and development and the redevelopment thats needed in the nearby area.
 The congestion directly impacts everybodys safety.

If you dont like this instead of just saying no why dont you come forth with practical alternatives?

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## kevinpate

Is is often interesting to observe how the perspective of advocating development can shift amongst folk when it's neither their property, nor adjacent property, that would be altered.

----------


## gamecock

> The pedestrian mall is not the magic bullet to improve Norman. Such concepts are largely passe and were envisioned in the Eighties. We've moved on from them. Campus Corner is fine with cars but Norman needs to create a more vibrant urban core. The problem is the city leadership still doesn't view Norman as a city. 
> 
> WHY is Norman one of the only major university towns in the United States without hotels adjacent to the university? 
> 
> WHY is there not more high-density, quality housing being constructed in the inner core?
> 
> Norman is S-L-O-W to change. But it is also a sleeping giant. It used to be the best city in the state for quality of life but it is lagging behind OKC and Tulsa now. Quality planning with an emphasis on rebuilding the city's core could make an immeasurable impact.
> 
> The city leadership (developers and bankers) have developed West Norman to the exclusion of everything else. They need to quit focusing on this (this area will develop regardless) and focus on what to do to transition the central core into a more dense, vibrant area. They have more to work with than 99% of Oklahoma towns and they are squandering it.


I really like the idea of making Campus Corner a pedestrian walk. One of the times I enjoy Campus Corner most is on OU gamedays when everything is closed to traffic. It would be great to have an environment like that. I have spent some time in Charlottesville, VA, and that area is so nice (see photo). If you close off the roads, you have a lot of space for outdoor seating, and it draws people to the area. That said, I think it would be highly risky since Campus Corner is already a pretty great area. And, yes, parking would be an issue. In the long-run, though, I think there would be real benefits.

charlottesville.jpg

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## venture

> Is is often interesting to observe how the perspective of advocating development can shift amongst folk when it's neither their property, nor adjacent property, that would be altered.


Isn't it though? Pathetic if you ask me.




> The wishes of a couple of dozen people should not trump the wishes of tens of thousands more people who work, live and visit this part of Norman on a regular bases.
> 
> As a University the congestion hinders OU’s growth and development and the redevelopment that’s needed in the nearby area.
>  The congestion directly impacts everybody’s safety.
> 
> If you don’t like this instead of just saying no why don’t you come forth with practical alternatives?


Ahh...so that apartment complex in your wonderful little suburbia utopia shouldn't have listened to you and your ilk since the majority of Norman would likely be okay with it?

OU has plenty of access options. Hwy 9 provides relatively easy access to Campus. If people don't like the traffic on Lindsey, take Hwy 9 or Main Street. I do it every day and don't complain. 

As far as providing alternatives, there is an ENTIRE thread on this subject that we covered before. I suggest you go back and read it.

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## ou48A

> Isn't it though? Pathetic if you ask me.
> 
> 
> 
> Ahh...so that apartment complex in your wonderful little suburbia utopia shouldn't have listened to you and your ilk since the majority of Norman would likely be okay with it?
> 
> OU has plenty of access options. Hwy 9 provides relatively easy access to Campus. If people don't like the traffic on Lindsey, take Hwy 9 or Main Street. I do it every day and don't complain. 
> 
> As far as providing alternatives, there is an ENTIRE thread on this subject that we covered before. I suggest you go back and read it.


What thread is that? Please show me a link. THANKS

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## ou48A

> Is is often interesting to observe how the perspective of advocating development can shift amongst folk when it's neither their property, nor adjacent property, that would be altered.


What’s even more interesting is how city of Norman leadership is willing to continually put aside the interest of the overwhelming majority and reduce future opportunities for the community.

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## jedicurt

> What’s even more interesting is how city of Norman leadership is willing to continually put aside the interest of the overwhelming majority and reduce future opportunities for the community.


but they do let us raise chickens in our back yards!!!!

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## ou48A

> but they do let us raise chickens in our back yards!!!!


LOL, but only 4

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## soonerguru

> If we turn the main Campus Corner (Asp) streets into a pedestrian mall it’s going to require a very expensive parking solution. We need to think about who would be paying for a parking garage and where it would be located? It makes a pedestrian mall not very likely.


Correct. This is a bad idea all around and hopefully it gains no traction. Especially now that Norman actually has successfully recruited a retail / services / restaurant mix to Campus Corner that appears to be working. A great way to kill that momentum would be to remove on-street parking options.

----------


## venture

> What’s even more interesting is how city of Norman leadership is willing to continually put aside the interest of the overwhelming majority and reduce future opportunities for the community.


While I don't agree with every move they make, if you are that unhappy with Norman why build a $300-600k house there? Move to Edmond.

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## Questor

> Is it really a quality of life issue when the people in that neighborhood don't want it done? I would think their wishes are more important that someone that lives 3 miles away.


This is ironic considering your posts in the West Norman thread.  But yeah, I and a lot of folks _completely agree with you._

Telling you right now though, the Council disagrees with your thought process.  They aren't going to care what you think when some development gets proposed for your area.  It's just all about traffic, dollars, and what city staff thinks.

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## Questor

The Campus Corner area is already highly walkable, but yeah I think it'd be great if it was even more walkable than it is now.  They do close down Asp from time to time, mostly on game days and for the occasional food festival or whatever.  The thing is, business owners in the area are very opposed to shutting those streets down to car traffic unless there's a giant infusion of people in the area for games or whatever.  The reason why is the cars drive sales... a lot of people are able to walk to Campus Corner, but sufficiently large numbers do not, and the businesses could not take the hit.  So to make this happen someone needs to seriously think about parking garages... but I imagine the moment someone throws out the idea of building a five story monolith in that neighborhood that the surrounding neighbors are going to protest it.  But hey, that apparently doesn't matter so I guess it's just up to what the council thinks is best for all of us.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## blangtang

Campus Corner is pretty dead for a whole month almost over X-mas break.  And it can be very quiet over the summer months too, so it wouldn't make a whole lotta sense to make it all closed to cars, unless OU changes its semesters to quarters or something like that.  

And back when they changed Asp from one way to two way, that was a big enough change that the business owners showed up at the city council meeting, Norman just doesn't work well when things are quickly changed.

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## Spartan

> Tulsa tried that, but it didn't work out.


Tulsa tried it for a few blocks that were ALL office buildings

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## ou48A

> While I don't agree with every move they make, if you are that unhappy with Norman why build a $300-600k house there? Move to Edmond.


Try to look at this in the big picture of life.
For me, none of this has ever been about my personal wealth..Its about a future that will likely occur after I am dead.

The point is.... this has been about making the Norman area and the state as prosperous as possible. 
Improvements in our quality of life aid in this effort.

We need to make sure we are doing things that dont limit our ability to be competitive with the entire world.
Improving OU and Norman makes us more competitive, but not very many top flight world researchers (that we will need to recruit) want to waste their time sitting in small city traffic congestion when it could so easily be made better.

We should be doing things with an eye toward building a city and state thats attractive to future research and development and their high wage spin off jobs. We want to keep our intellectual capital here, rather than see a continuation of the Oklahoma brain drain.

Building up Norman in the right ways can benefit the entire state with increased opportunities. In my opinion Norman citys leaders should be aggressively selling this thought process to our state leaders so they better fund OU and our area infrastructure.

The investment in MAPs has done wonders for OKC that we can all see. We can make an investment in the entire state by planting the seeds that improve Norman and OU that would eventually dwarf the impact that MAPS has had.

I dont have any personal experience in economic development but I did learn a lot from a relative of mine who was the lead person in the recruitment of Corporations such as JC Penneys and Exxon along with others to the DFW area. I learned many years ago that we must invest in our selfs before we can expect outsiders to invest in us.

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## Spartan

> Try to look at this in the big picture of life.
> For me, none of this has ever been about my personal wealth…..It’s about a future that will likely occur after I am dead.
> 
> The point is.... this has been about making the Norman area and the state as prosperous as possible. 
> Improvements in our quality of life aid in this effort.
> 
> We need to make sure we are doing things that don’t limit our ability to be competitive with the entire world.
> Improving OU and Norman makes us more competitive, but not very many top flight world researchers (that we will need to recruit) want to waste their time sitting in small city traffic congestion when it could so easily be made better.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but first of all, "top flight world researchers" don't pick where to live based on how traffic flows in sprawl corridors, and second of all, MAPS in OKC wasn't about widening roads either. You can't embrace the MAPS urbanist legacy and argue for widening roads in the same paragraph.

Lastly, your obsession with automobile sprawl is really absurd. Norman needs to get beyond that in order to get back on track for growth, because it can't compete in the sprawl category anyway - Moore is better positioned and more attractive for that now. Strategize a point that you can win on. Norman has a lot going on for that doesn't involve automobile sprawl, but it's all losing out to suburban interests right now.

We all agree that Norman needs to invest in itself. The problem is that you are at odds with most everyone on here who wants to focus on the inner neighborhoods that could make Norman unique and truly competitive.

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## ou48A

> I'm sorry but first of all, "top flight world researchers" don't pick where to live based on how traffic flows in sprawl corridors, and second of all, MAPS in OKC wasn't about widening roads either. You can't embrace the MAPS urbanist legacy and argue for widening roads in the same paragraph.
> 
> Lastly, your obsession with automobile sprawl is really absurd. Norman needs to get beyond that in order to get back on track for growth, because it can't compete in the sprawl category anyway - Moore is better positioned and more attractive for that now. Strategize a point that you can win on. Norman has a lot going on for that doesn't involve automobile sprawl, but it's all losing out to suburban interests right now.
> 
> We all agree that Norman needs to invest in itself. The problem is that you are at odds with most everyone on here who wants to focus on the inner neighborhoods that could make Norman unique and truly competitive.


Just like major business many do make relocation decisions’ based on the quality of life. You never know what those are. For some, they are sick of big city congestion and the time that it takes away from their lives. But even so, the improvements would help virtually everybody.

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## Spartan

Norman's congestion derives from its sprawl and its existing suburban-minded refusal to invest in quality of life. I don't disagree that Norman needs MAPS-style downtown projects. A streetcar would be a huge hit, like Tacoma, WA. I think a ped mall is a great idea too.

Right now Norman is telling urban developers no, tolerating crap at UNP, and only investing in street projects on the edge that will bring more sprawl. Seriously misguided leadership, but it's a shame that a new downtown library got killed.

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## RadicalModerate

> If we turn the main Campus Corner (Asp) streets into a pedestrian mall it’s going to require a very expensive parking solution. We need to think about who would be paying for a parking garage and where it would be located? It makes a pedestrian mall not very likely.


Well . . . They could drive to OKC, park easily, and ride the Heartland Flyer back to Norman.
That, or something involving taxis, pedicabs, horse-drawn carriages, bicycles or a canal.

All kidding aside: Excellent, pragmatic, observation. Yet, Norman is a GREAT college town.  And this from someone who was raised in Boulder, CO. Visited Ft. Collins MANY times back in the day and is completely and utterly amazed at what the OKC/Bricktown development folks have done over the most recent two or three decades since I deserted my old hometown . . .

It's "greatness" needs to be exploited--beyond the obvious sports.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Well . . . They could drive to OKC, park easily, and ride the Heartland Flyer back to Norman.
> That, or something involving taxis, pedicabs, horse-drawn carriages, bicycles or a canal.
> 
> All kidding aside: Excellent, pragmatic, observation. Yet, Norman is a GREAT college town.  And this from someone who was raised in Boulder, CO. Visited Ft. Collins MANY times back in the day and is completely and utterly amazed at what the OKC/Bricktown development folks have done over the most recent two or three decaded since I deserted my old hometown . . .
> 
> It's "greatness" needs to be exploited--beyond the obvious sports.


Hey man, I just hatched an idea. Someone should start a unicycle sharing program. That would be bomb.com shizzzy of the hizzy.. nizzle for drizzle.. awwww yeaaaah

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## venture

> Hey man, I just hatched an idea. Someone should start a unicycle sharing program. That would be bomb.com shizzzy of the hizzy.. nizzle for drizzle.. awwww yeaaaah


Never speak like that again. /slap 

LOL

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## Spartan

I dunno I can dig it, panda just keepin it off the chain

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## kevinpate

Maybe I am not sports minded enough. About the only time I notice any significant congestion inside Norman at all tends to be:

a. 90-120 minutes either side of an OU home fb game
b. 30-45 minutes either side of a LNC event of any type
c. Main St/Sooner Mall (so I'm told. I very rarely approach the mall and even more rarely from Main)
d. 4:45 - 5:45 evenings Robinson/12th NE area and Robinson/36th NW area.

All these I find rather easy to avoid in peak periods. By and large, the hours I'm out and about are pretty easy traveling around Norman, though if a road is going to be closed it would be nice to know that before I'm at the closed section. Advance notice signs are something we could definitely improve on down here.

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## venture

> Maybe I am not sports minded enough. About the only time I notice any significant congestion inside Norman at all tends to be:
> 
> a. 90-120 minutes either side of an OU home fb game
> b. 30-45 minutes either side of a LNC event of any type
> c. Main St/Sooner Mall (so I'm told. I very rarely approach the mall and even more rarely from Main)
> d. 4:45 - 5:45 evenings Robinson/12th NE area and Robinson/36th NW area.
> 
> All these I find rather easy to avoid in peak periods. By and large, the hours I'm out and about are pretty easy traveling around Norman, though if a road is going to be closed it would be nice to know that before I'm at the closed section. Advance notice signs are something we could definitely improve on down here.


That is exactly what I see as well. Hwy 9 can get a bit busy during rush out and also I-35 at Lindsey/Hwy 9...but that is already going to be fixed.

For kicks I decided to go down Lindsey through Campus on a weekday afternoon and no issues at all. School was still in session and such. I don't see anything on a constant basis that warrants taking front yards away, tearing down houses, and causing massive reroutes for months.

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## vaflyer

> Norman's congestion derives from its sprawl and its existing suburban-minded refusal to invest in quality of life. I don't disagree that Norman needs MAPS-style downtown projects. A streetcar would be a huge hit, like Tacoma, WA. I think a ped mall is a great idea too.
> 
> Right now Norman is telling urban developers no, tolerating crap at UNP, and only investing in street projects on the edge that will bring more sprawl. Seriously misguided leadership, but it's a shame that a new downtown library got killed.


I agree of some of your concerns, but Norman, by its location and land size, is a suburban city. Obviously, city leaders long ago decided to annex areas around core Norman, probably to promote economic development and increase its tax base. In the process, the city changed itself from a small town to a suburban community. People moved to those suburban areas and have demanded that the city spend tax dollars in those areas. The only way the city can change that is to de-annex those areas which will not happen.

As for the downtown library, I voted against it and am very happy the $50 million project was voted down. The project was just too expensive for what the city were getting. Furthermore, the space needed for libraries to function effectively will decline over time as more and more books are published digitally. If we would have built the library, we would have been paying 30 years for building that quickly was going to become a dinosaur.

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## ou48A

> Maybe I am not sports minded enough. About the only time I notice any significant congestion inside Norman at all tends to be:
> 
> a. 90-120 minutes either side of an OU home fb game
> b. 30-45 minutes either side of a LNC event of any type
> c. Main St/Sooner Mall (so I'm told. I very rarely approach the mall and even more rarely from Main)
> .
> 
> All these I find rather easy to avoid in peak periods. By and large, the hours I'm out and about are pretty easy traveling around Norman, though if a road is going to be closed it would be nice to know that before I'm at the closed section. Advance notice signs are something we could definitely improve on down here.


In the run up to the city’s recent bond election for street improvements the stretch of Lindsey from OU to I-35 was called the most congested street in Oklahoma.

You and most others here can normally avoid the worst of the problem spots, but because many live, work, attend school, or visit this part of Norman it makes the problem spots virtually impossible to avoid at the times many folks need to travel. 
When several times a day it take as long 20 to 30 minutes to make the approx. 2 mile drive from OU to I-35 on Lindsey…. there is a significant problem that needs a real solution. But nobody else has even discusses a serious workable alternative solution that I can recall. They just say don’t do it.

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## ou48A

The largest areas of undeveloped land in central Norman are on the south side of campus. This and the areas along Highway 9 will more and more become major targets areas for the development of high wage jobs and research.
If the city, state, OU, and residents want OU and central Norman to grow and infill, then the transportation issue will need a solution. Not, we dont need that, or dont do it.

Highway 9 needs to be brought up to near interstate standards and 6 landed from Jenkins to the west with one dedicated lane for I-35 south, one for I-35 north and with another lane that would continue  west then turn north and connect with 	48th SW and 60TH SW.

Norman is the 3 largest city in Oklahoma. Its very likely to eventually grow well beyond the 200,000 mark. If we want in filled growth then its time to stop ignoring this eventuality and proactively plan for it. It will be far cheaper if we do.



High levels of prosperity are the surest path to achieving high end quality growth and in filled growth.
But we cant get there without a high quality transportation system that does not waste peoples time.

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## venture

> In the run up to the city’s recent bond election for street improvements the stretch of Lindsey from OU to I-35 was called the most congested street in Oklahoma.
> 
> You and most others here can normally avoid the worst of the problem spots, but because many live, work, attend school, or visit this part of Norman it makes the problem spots virtually impossible to avoid at the times many folks need to travel. 
> When several times a day it take as long 20 to 30 minutes to make the approx. 2 mile drive from OU to I-35 on Lindsey…. there is a significant problem that needs a real solution. But nobody else has even discusses a serious workable alternative solution that I can recall. They just say don’t do it.


Well four lanes from Berry to I-35 will take care of a lot of the congestion around the businesses. From Berry to Campus it will have to come down to better timing the traffic lights for the flow of traffic. Now once you get to campus you have a few options. You can create a loop and One Way certain streets. You could also remove the cross walk stop lights on campus and put in pedestrian bridges. Obviously you'd have to restrict any large vehicle traffic down Lindsey, but that should be an issue. 

It might also come down to a change in driving habits. There appears to be enough room between the road and sidewalks to four lane University all the way from Main Street to campus. Redirect most people that way, who are coming from the north, through Main to University instead. 

This is almost like going to the WRWA from the South and East. If you are going east on 44 or west on 240 you typically are going to go up to Airport Road to Meridian. When in fact it is faster to get off on 59th and take that to Meridian. It is all about driving habits and moving people around.

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## heyerdahl

Find me a few studies or articles that explain why a community like Norman can win the future by focusing on making it easier to get around by car and continuing to encourage sprawl development. Who is saying this other than angry Agenda 21 people who think preferences for urbanism are a UN conspiracy? (Hint: Joel Kotkin is the only editorialist I can think of who might come close.)

Which sprawling college towns are making big strides by widening roads? (Hint: I can only think of the Triangle of Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, where research parks sprawl across two highway-laced counties and people have gotten so tired of retreating by car to their walkable home neighborhoods at the corners of the triangle that they just passed a $1.4 billion transit plan.)

Boulder and Ann Arbor have focused intensely on increasing bicycling and walking and now they're considered among the best places to live in the country.

Meanwhile, even the AUTO INDUSTRY knows most young people do not want to rely on cars. Our local Chambers of Commerce, economic developers, and major corporations know this too and are preparing for it. See Oklahoma City.

Why Young Americans Are Driving So Much Less Than Their Parents - Commute - The Atlantic Cities

"A study by J.D. Power and Associates, most well-known for their quality rankings of cars, confirms what young people tell me: After analyzing hundreds of thousands of online conversations on everything from car blogs to Twitter and Facebook, the study found that teens and young people in their early twenties have increasingly negative perceptions “regarding the necessity of and desire to have cars.”

"There’s a cultural change taking place," John Casesa, a veteran auto industry analyst told the New York Times in 2009.  “It’s partly because of the severe economic contraction. But younger consumers are viewing an automobile with a jaundiced eye. They don’t view the car the way their parents did, and they don’t have the money that their parents did.”

A survey by the National Association of Realtors conducted in March 2011 revealed that 62 percent of people ages 18-29 said they would prefer to live in a communities with a mix of single family homes, condos and apartments, nearby retail shops, restaurants, cafes and bars, as well as workplaces, libraries, and schools served by public transportation.  A separate 2011 Urban Land Institute survey found that nearly two-thirds of 18 to 32-year-olds polled preferred to live in walkable communities."

----------


## ou48A

> Find me a few studies or articles that explain why a community like Norman can win the future by focusing on making it easier to get around by car and continuing to encourage sprawl development. Who is saying this other than angry Agenda 21 people who think preferences for urbanism are a UN conspiracy? (Hint: Joel Kotkin is the only editorialist I can think of who might come close.)
> 
> Which sprawling college towns are making big strides by widening roads? (Hint: I can only think of the Triangle of Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, where research parks sprawl across two highway-laced counties and people have gotten so tired of retreating by car to their walkable home neighborhoods at the corners of the triangle that they just passed a $1.4 billion transit plan.)
> 
> Boulder and Ann Arbor have focused intensely on increasing bicycling and walking and now they're considered among the best places to live in the country.
> 
> Meanwhile, even the AUTO INDUSTRY knows most young people do not want to rely on cars. Our local Chambers of Commerce, economic developers, and major corporations know this too and are preparing for it. See Oklahoma City.
> 
> Why Young Americans Are Driving So Much Less Than Their Parents - Commute - The Atlantic Cities
> ...


You don’t need studies or an article to know that Lindsey Street is seriously congested several times a day. 

People with even elementary common sense and eyes can see it for them self’s.

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## heyerdahl

Of course Lindsey Street is congested. There are a lot of things we can do to address that and Norman has already chosen one- They're going to 5-lane it. They have chosen this solution while simultaneously rejecting higher density housing in walkable areas, failing to build the level of bike infrastructure that other college towns and attractive cities are, and continuing to allow huge, disconnected automobile-only residential and retail developments. All of these things will make congestion worse.

Norman is in the process of choosing a path, and contrary to your opinion, the path it is choosing is NOT the modern, forward-thinking one (that is where the articles and studies come in!) Norman is no longer capitalizing on the slight college urbanism advantage that made it just unique enough among Edmond, Yukon, Moore, and a thousand other identical places in America. So getting back to the subject of this thread, that is probably why Norman is starting to lose to central Oklahoma City, which has chosen to pursue the modern and forward-thinking path of quality urbanism that sets it apart from every other part of the metro.

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## ou48A

> Of course Lindsey Street is congested. There are a lot of things we can do to address that and Norman has already chosen one- *They're going to 5-lane it.* They have chosen this solution while simultaneously rejecting higher density housing in walkable areas, failing to build the level of bike infrastructure that other college towns and attractive cities are, and continuing to allow huge, disconnected automobile-only residential and retail developments. All of these things will make congestion worse.
> 
> Norman is in the process of choosing a path, and contrary to your opinion, the path it is choosing is NOT the modern, forward-thinking one (that is where the articles and studies come in!) Norman is no longer capitalizing on the slight college urbanism advantage that made it just unique enough among Edmond, Yukon, Moore, and a thousand other identical places in America. So getting back to the subject of this thread, that is probably why Norman is starting to lose to central Oklahoma City, which has chosen to pursue the modern and forward-thinking path of quality urbanism that sets it apart from every other part of the metro.


The part of Lindsey Street that is the most congested will not be 5 landed. It will stay exactly like it is….. 
This is in spite of the fact that it has been labeled as the most congested street in Oklahoma and the part that’s not being widened is the worst stretch of Lindsey, by a very wide margin. It doesn’t even have sidewalks.

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## blangtang

Traffic is worse in Edmond, from what little time I've spent there.

Its been a long time, but from memory there were plans to widen the stretch of Lindsey from Berry to Elm?  But I've never heard of any plan for the stretch of Lindsey that goes right thru the OU campus.  There was also a plan to 4 lane Flood from Robinson to Main, that would be a mess, now that I think on it.

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## BoulderSooner

i have always felt that the county services between Robinson and Alameda should all be relocated to the outskirts of norman and all of that land sold for redevelopment ..

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## kevinpate

> i have always felt that the county services between Robinson and Alameda should all be relocated to the outskirts of norman and all of that land sold for redevelopment ..



When built these were on the outskirts, and then some. If sold for redevelopment, wouldn't the price need to include the relocation of those services? Sitting where they sit doesn't cost the stakeholders, but rebuilding would.  If the relocation is factored in, is the price of the newly available land still viable for redevelopment?

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