# Everything Else > Arts & Entertainment >  KWTV and Mason Dunn part ways

## venture

This is starting to be reported elsewhere, so will go ahead and make a post. Found out earlier today that KWTV News Director fired pilot Mason Dunn after they got into an argument. 

Personally I don't like this. The chemistry between Gary and Mason on storm coverage was always great. This is likely going to be a major blow to KWTV's weather coverage as they will no longer have the experience in the sky. As soon as Gary decides to finally retire, that will probably be the end for me of watching the news on that station and move completely to 4 and 5.

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## Dustin

For weather I always go to 4.  For actual news coverage I go to 5 and 9.   Eyewitness News 5 is the absolute best in news coverage but 9 is more fun!  

I really didn't like Mason anyway.  Hopefully they can find a good replacement.

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## SoonerQueen

I'm sorry to hear they let him go. The chemistry between Gary and Mason during severe weather is amazing. I can't think this is a positive move for KWTV. They lost their edge on weather reporting.I hope he lands at another station soon. Maybe he can move over to KOCO.

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## jn1780

I wonder what the argument was about.

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## drum4no1

I found out about an hour after he was fired.  It wasnt just this incident but the tipping point.  It had been brewing for awhile

To be technical he was fired last Tuesday

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## drumsncode

You can't fire the guy that saved "Bambi" on a frozen lake!  Maybe it's time for a new News Director.

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## adaniel

Wow that was a bad call by Channel 9.

He seemed like a nice guy and was much more enjoyable to watch than Bob Moore Chopper 4, but during the last severe weather outbreak KWTV seemed a little flat-footed compared to KFOR. And the ratings showed.

I wonder if Gary England's recent on air crabbiness has anything to do with this?

EDIT: Mason's bio is off KWTV's website.

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## Thunder

Eh, big mistake by KWTV's News Director for firing someone over a personal argument.  

The pilot should take the chopper and join KOCO or KFOR.  Give a station the luxury of two choppers. :-D

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## bombermwc

Maybe he told the director he was tired of over sensationalising everything wanted to get back to real news REPORTing....

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## Barry Luxton

I saw this on TLO just now

The story with Mason is that the new news director Todd Spessard ordered Mason back up to fly after the Piedmont tornadoes when he was exhausted and had, had no food or water for over 8 hours. Mason told him he was exhausted, and needed some rest. but Spessard continued to put Mason under duress. A verbal exchange ensued and Mason was suspended and then let go. FAA states that pilots will determine when flying is unsafe, not arrogant, ignorant news directors.
Reply
Tracey Williamson says:
June 9, 2011 at 7:18 pm

By the way Isnt the new, news director at News 9 Todd Spessard the same news director who cost the last station he worked at KSNW, over 1.1 million dollars in a lawsuit for pushing and running a story on the BTK killer  accusing the wrong man after he had been cleared ???. the jury even talked about how uncaring and arrogant Mr. Spessard wasthey got that right..who hired that bozo anyway. ??? News 9 your stock has gone way down..
Reply
Tracey Williamson says:
June 9, 2011 at 7:36 pm

In my earlier comment I need to make clear that Mason had been flying for over 8 eight hours with no food or water Mr. Spessard showed no respect for the great job he did and has no clue what that takes out of a person..He even snidely asked Mason  You mean you cant fly for more than eight hours ?
Whatever rock they dug this guy out from under they need to put him back post haste.. the only thing Spessard has in common with flying is making people do that out of a room when he enters it..

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## Thunder

Hmmmm.... Mason have grounds to sue the director and he need to do that immediately.

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## venture

I had a feeling it had something to do with the coverage on the 24th. Listening to Mason that day he was just flat out exhausted. He had to bail on the Canton Lake Tornado simply because the storm coverage was boxing him in. I have a feeling Mr. Spessard was fuming at losing the live video of it. 

If what was posted is true...it definitely appears that this is some "hot shot" who is trying to take local news to an edgy maximum. Look at all the various camera angles they are using now, usually executed very poorly and looks quite amateur. The Griffin Family made a terrible hire with this guy. If I were Mason, I would definitely file a complaint with the FAA to have them come in and revoke the station's operating certificate. Not only would it impact KWTV, probably KOTV as well if they are on the same operators certificate. 

Why do I also get the feeling this new hotshot News Director is probably also wanting to clean house a bit more...perhaps even Gary? I wonder just how much power has been taken away from him. The break-ins last night were horrible. The shots of them sitting behind a couple monitors now with a very low light lighting setup just makes Gary seem very old or very lazy (they had Michael in one of the shots as well).

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## positano

Venture - do you know what the FAA licensing requirements are?  Obviously the pilot has to be licensed, but does the FAA have authority over the station as well by virtue of "operating" the helicopter?

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## Tydude

well they have to look for a new pilot for sky news 9 HD

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## old okie

Appalling.  I'm all for boycotting Channel 9 news at all time slots!  Mason certainly would have known if he were at his peak to be flying or not; for the station manager to have insisted differently is beyond ridiculous.  

We can certainly "vote" with our remote and just go to Channel 4 or 5.  If it is the new station mgr. at 9 that is going with the "panic" weather reporting, like Friday night, then he needs to move on.  They can run the trailers across the top of the screen, bottom of the screen, or do a split screen; to interrupt for a thunderstorm, not tornadic, but just "severe," plays to trying to "scare" people unnecessarily.  I fear the result is going to be that no one pays any attention to them at all.  

Bring Mason back and fire the station manager!!!

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## drum4no1

> If I were Mason, I would definitely file a complaint with the FAA to have them come in and revoke the station's operating certificate.


   Not sure how much authority the FAA has over the station, 4 and 9's chopper are owned by   http://www.airfliteok.com/index.html  out of shawnee.

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## drum4no1

Okay I double checked and N9TV is registered to Griffin as the owner.  In that case yes I could see the stations getting some flack form the FAA.

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## venture

Here is what Drum is referring to...

N9TV (SkyNews9) Registration Info: http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...xt=9TV&x=0&y=0

N196TV (SkyNews6) Registration Info: http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...96TV&x=32&y=12

For those that may have closer references and better first hand information, please contact the FAA... http://www.faa.gov/contact/ or public tip line is: 1-866-835-5322

If the allegations are true, then the hammer should come down.

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## SoonerQueen

http://openline.medialine.com/showthread.php?t=24447

Here is something I found about Todd Spessard from another message board.

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## SoonerQueen

http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case...9&s=KS&d=43904

Here is the case against Todd Spessard.

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## SoonerQueen

> I saw this on TLO just now
> 
> The story with Mason is that the new news director Todd Spessard ordered Mason back up to fly after the Piedmont tornadoes when he was exhausted and had, had no food or water for over 8 hours. Mason told him he was exhausted, and needed some rest. but Spessard continued to put Mason under duress. A verbal exchange ensued and Mason was suspended and then let go. FAA states that pilots will determine when flying is unsafe, not arrogant, ignorant news directors.
> Reply
> Tracey Williamson says:
> June 9, 2011 at 7:18 pm
> 
> By the way Isnt the new, news director at News 9 Todd Spessard the same news director who cost the last station he worked at KSNW, over 1.1 million dollars in a lawsuit for pushing and running a story on the BTK killer  accusing the wrong man after he had been cleared ???. the jury even talked about how uncaring and arrogant Mr. Spessard wasthey got that right..who hired that bozo anyway. ??? News 9 your stock has gone way down..
> Reply
> ...


What is TLO?

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## kevinpate

> What is TLO?


The Lost Ogle  http://www.thelostogle.com/

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## SoonerQueen

I got it. TY

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## lake hefner breeze

> I saw this on TLO just now
> 
> The story with Mason is that *the new news director Todd Spessard* ordered Mason back up to fly after the Piedmont tornadoes when he was exhausted and had, had no food or water for over 8 hours. Mason told him he was exhausted, and needed some rest…. but Spessard continued to put Mason under duress. A verbal exchange ensued and Mason was suspended and then let go. FAA states that pilots will determine when flying is unsafe, not arrogant, ignorant news directors.
> Reply
> Tracey Williamson says:
> June 9, 2011 at 7:18 pm
> 
> By the way Isn’t the new, news director at News 9 Todd Spessard the same news director who cost the last station he worked at KSNW, over 1.1 million dollars in a lawsuit for pushing and running a story on the BTK killer – accusing the wrong man after he had been cleared ???…. the jury even talked about how uncaring and arrogant Mr. Spessard was…they got that right…..who hired that bozo anyway…. ??? News 9 your stock has gone way down……..
> Reply
> ...


*Must be the same idiot responsible for hiring that buffoon Stan Miller.*

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## CuatrodeMayo

> I saw this on TLO just now
> 
> The story with Mason is that the new news director Todd Spessard ordered Mason back up to fly after the Piedmont tornadoes when he was exhausted and had, had no food or water for over 8 hours. Mason told him he was exhausted, and needed some rest. but Spessard continued to put Mason under duress. A verbal exchange ensued and Mason was suspended and then let go. FAA states that pilots will determine when flying is unsafe, not arrogant, ignorant news directors.
> Reply
> Tracey Williamson says:
> June 9, 2011 at 7:18 pm
> 
> By the way Isnt the new, news director at News 9 Todd Spessard the same news director who cost the last station he worked at KSNW, over 1.1 million dollars in a lawsuit for pushing and running a story on the BTK killer  accusing the wrong man after he had been cleared ???. the jury even talked about how uncaring and arrogant Mr. Spessard wasthey got that right..who hired that bozo anyway. ??? News 9 your stock has gone way down..
> Reply
> ...


I have a friend of a friend in the weather dept at KWTV and that is exactly the story I heard.

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## Jim Kyle

The story may not be over yet; tonight on the 10 p.m. news, his name was mentioned as "Sky-9 pilot Mason Dunn" (in a story about the floods a year ago today) and the usual practice there (as at nearly all TV stations) is never to mention ex-employees, especially recent ones. Anyone remember when Randy Renner was caught in an embarassing situation and summarily vanished from KWTV's sight -- even though at the time he was featured host of a regular show there!

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## venture

I would imagine if Mason Dunn shows back up at KWTV, it will be quickly followed by the sudden departure of a news director.

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## Thunder

> I would imagine if Mason Dunn shows back up at KWTV, it will be quickly followed by the sudden departure of a news director.


I believe that will happen.  News Director are not the highest position, so that guy is doomed.  They all know about this site and they are very much aware that we are on the situation day-by-day.

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## drum4no1

> I believe that will happen.  News Director are not the highest position, so that guy is doomed.  They all know about this site and they are very much aware that we are on the situation day-by-day.


   Not likely, broadcast management is to short sighted with their heads firmly up their rears.  Also the former news director is now a VP at Griffin Comm.My understanding is that Mason and the former News Director also butted heads. So his firing seems to have the support of higher ups.  
Not agreeing on his firing, just saying it probably wont be reversed.

And yes they do look at this site and I better shut up quick, since my username could give my identity away.

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## swilki

> I believe that will happen.  News Director are not the highest position, so that guy is doomed.  They all know about this site and they are very much aware that we are on the situation day-by-day.


I think you need to look into how these places are run. He may not the highest, but certainly very near the top of the food chain.

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## MrZ

In a fair world, the big-wigs at KWTV would realize that Mason gets the eyeballs on the channel, and the news director? Not so much...

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## Jim Kyle

Quite true, but who ever claimed that the world is fair?

The difference in quality of their weather coverage was certainly apparent over the weekend, however -- break-ins every couple of minutes although nothing was happening. That's a fine way to chase viewers to the competition in a hurry!

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## earlywinegareth

Appears to me Mason has grounds to sue for wrongful discharge.  The news director's actions were illegal.  An employer can't force someone to break the law in order to keep his job.  

I'd also ask for punitive damages due to Channel 9's blatant disregard for the the pilot's health and safety, and the safety of the public if he had been involved in a crash.  Very serious stuff.

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...fm?newsId=6762 

"Current FAA regulations for domestic flights generally limit pilots to eight hours of flight time during a 24-hour period...an air carrier may not schedule any pilot and no pilot may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation *or other commercial flying* if that pilot’s total flight time will exceed the regulatory limits."

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## bornhere

Just for the record, I rather doubt ch 9 or anyone else makes hiring/firing decisions based on OKCTalk postings.

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## Thunder

> Just for the record, I rather doubt ch 9 or anyone else makes hiring/firing decisions based on OKCTalk postings.


No, they don't.  You entirely missed the point.  They are aware that we exposed them.   They are aware that thousands of viewers are aware of their action.  I doubt that KWTV as a whole was in on it.  Its just that one estranged News Director.  What I find sad is that the entire staff at KWTV did not protest of any kind against the firing decision.

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## Brandon Rush

> They all know about this site and they are very much aware that we are on the situation day-by-day.


I doubt there is a news station ANYWHERE that cares about what is said on a message board...

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## drum4no1

Thunder seems to think he knows how TV stations run, there are people that would slit their mothers neck to lead the 10.  I doubt a few internet postings will make a difference

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## Brandon Rush

> No, they don't.  You entirely missed the point.  They are aware that we exposed them.


again, doubt that is the case...




> What I find sad is that the entire staff at KWTV did not protest of any kind against the firing decision.


why? you think ANYONE in the media is willing to stand up and risk thier jobs too?!!?

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## earlywinegareth

Mason Dunn alone acted correctly and responsibly by refusing to fly beyond his 8 hours.  He has federal aviation regulations on his side - he didn't need other Ch 9 staffers to do anything.  If he had caved in and ended up in an accident, the FAA could have blamed him and revoked his pilot's license.  At which point he could sue Ch 9 and probably win some damages, but his career as a pilot would be over.  No employer is worth losing your professional certification.

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## MikeOKC

> Thunder seems to think he knows how TV stations run, *there are people that would slit their mothers neck to lead the 10.*  I doubt a few internet postings will make a difference


Really? In 2011? They still think a 10:00 local newscast in Oklahoma City really matters? Such self-importance in that industry. If it does matter today at all, give it another couple of years and they'll all be like the 5:30 network evening news.

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## The Canary

There is a Facebook page with the latest information on this. Just type in  The Canary in your search box, look for the News 9 helicopter photo.

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## The Canary

I find this comment interesting.... you are perhaps a friend of Rob Krier ?

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## The Canary

This will be ongoing for awhile. The reason the Ch. 9 crew did nothing is because they were given a gag order about it.  The news director that had been at news 9 for 16 years and was fired to bring in Spessard did not butt heads with him as was stated, that relationship was going smoothly . Also there is a higher up at Griffin that does not like Dunn.  When working with people, how many get along 100 % of the time ? 
This pilot did great work for 8 years at News 9 and has been treated badly. The News 9 Facebook page is censoring and deleting posts about it.... even blocking people.  There is a facebook page giving the latest info called The Canary ... it is my page. I welcome hearing from anyone about it... good or bad....

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## drum4no1

10p news must still matter, it brings in the highest ratings and some of the highest ad revenue

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## MikeOKC

> 10p news must still matter, it brings in the highest ratings and some of the highest ad revenue


10pm "news" is basically weather, sports and the crime blotter. Do any of the local TV stations have a permanent reporter at the state capitol? City hall? Local news is crime and features with "rip and read" news of any serious value. It's an entertainment product, period.

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## Bostonfan

> I believe that will happen.  News Director are not the highest position, so that guy is doomed.  They all know about this site and they are very much aware that we are on the situation day-by-day.


I laughed.

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## Barry Luxton

> There is a Facebook page with the latest information on this. Just type in  The Canary in your search box, look for the News 9 helicopter photo.


Here's the direct link for it - http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Ca...30535246972194

So you're his brother, eh?  And here's what Tracey Dunn Williamson had to say about it -

After the Piedmont tornadoes, Mason had been flying for over 8 hours to cover them with no food or drink. When he got back to the station it was dark... Spessard ordered him back up. Mason said " I'm exhausted and need some rest. " Spessard snidely remarked... " You mean you can't fly for more than 8 hours ?"
Spessard pushed Mason further, pulled him into his office... they got into a heated verbal argument and Mason was suspended for a week, then let go.
This news director was ordering Mason back up to fly in the dark, when he was exhausted, over an area without power, which means no beacons on the towers... very dangerous...
Mason was not given a termination letter, no reason was cited for his termination, they failed to make him sign a gag order..... which all of News 9's employees have been given over this.

Sounds to me like they Dunn goofed when they hired this Spessard turkey.

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## okcnuzguy

Mason is not the only casualty of war over at 9...they have fired/let go/canned/etc more than 20 people this year. Most are behind the scenes folks..A lot of the new media people, their News Director (who had been there 15+ years), Production manager, Assignment editor, etc..
I hear more heads are on the chopping block.

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## Tydude

i am on Mason Dun side what if something bad happen and he crash and get injured he could sue News 9 and people could stop watching them and then they get bad ratings

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## Jim Kyle

> Mason is not the only casualty of war over at 9...they have fired/let go/canned/etc more than 20 people this year. Most are behind the scenes folks..A lot of the new media people, their News Director (who had been there 15+ years), Production manager, Assignment editor, etc..
> I hear more heads are on the chopping block.


So that's what the all-new redesign of their logo and general format meant...

It's too bad. I hate to see what was arguably the best of the local network stations (despite its being the CBS affiliate) go downhill so rapidly!

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## anonnanny

I watch whichever station has the best storm coverage in MY area so guess there's one less station to flip through.

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## SoonerQueen

I tried to find the Canary and had no luck. If you could message me the link, I'd love to check it out.

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## Jim Kyle

Here's the link again: http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Ca...30535246972194

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## SoonerQueen

I Liked the Canary page. Thanks for posting the link.

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## Paule4ou

I saw SkyNews 9 heading to a grassfire a few days ago. They never "interviewed" or spoke with the pilot so I am assuming it was not Mason. Anyone know who was piloting the chopper?

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## LAWZCON91HD

the facebook page on here now no longer is around so i have made one now http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sky-ne...11230032252091 please like the page and let me know if you would like KWTV news 9 to hire Mason back

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## TaoMaas

> ... please like the page and let me know if you would like KWTV news 9 to hire Mason back


That's not gonna happen.  How often have you seen tv stations admit they screwed up...especially in personnel matters?  I do think Ch. 9's news director screwed up though.  I think he lacked the history in this market to: #1 understand how important choppers are to weather coverage...and #2 know how few pilot/reporters have come through here.  There have really only been 3 guys who could combine the skills of being able to talk live with flying a chopper in REALLY bad weather...Leo Gallanis, Jim Gardner, and Mason Dunn.

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## bombermwc

I wrote an email to kwtv, not that it will make a difference. They'll just delete it but I feel like if we have an opinion, we should at least try to make it known to them. They'll just censor as much as they can to keep it from making it's way to the public, but why not at least put some support behind someone that has helped cover storms to keep us safe? And he works in a nice calm manner, unlike his fellow "storm center" co-workers. Mr. Dunn is at least level-headed and doesn't over sensationalize when he reports....he does just that, reports.

Oh wait, now that I think about it, maybe that helped him get fired. He should probably have told everyone they were going to die if they weren't underground. That usually seems to help out the folks at that station (Mr. England). Throw a few crazy comments out there about how overly-dangerous things are and how the world is going to end, make some ratings, right? ugh.

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## Jim Kyle

Interesting development: I just went to their web site and looked for the staff bios, in both the news and the weather sections. NONE of them is there any more, and I got a number of "404" (unable to connect) error messages in various parts of each page. Wonder what's going on out there?

They do have a page about the chopper back up, but the only person mentioned by name on it is the vendor who assembled the special electronics gear...

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## TaoMaas

> Oh wait, now that I think about it, maybe that helped him get fired. He should probably have told everyone they were going to die if they weren't underground. That usually seems to help out the folks at that station (Mr. England).


Sorry, bomber, but you couldn't be more wrong.  My job after the May 3rd tornado was to go out into the field and talk to survivors.  I lost count of how many said that they were ignoring the warnings until Gary told them that they wouldn't survive unless they were underground.  The reason that caught their attention was because they'd never heard him say that before.  If you hear stations using that phrase these days, it's because it was a huge difference-maker on May 3rd.

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## earlywinegareth

I don't need Gary England to tell me, "this one's a killer".  Every tornado situation is dangerous and every warning should be heeded.  When you hear the train, it's time to get off the trax..

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## bombermwc

The problem is, since May 3rd, every tornado is a killer for all the stations. It's ridiculous. They throw warnings out for a wall cloud now as well. Argue what you want on how those are released these days, but Gary lost my respect at that point. And no, Val is not there. I had a huge amount of respect for him before that whole thing happened. He could have gained it back afterward if he hadn't hopped on the crazy bandwagon since then of making a huge deal out of everything. If they would all just back away and put things into context. Weather is weather and we accept the risk of it living here. The more you make everything out to be a big deal, the less of a big deal it is. Why do you think people weren't paying as much attention to their warnings on May 3rd? It's the age old story of the boy that cried wolf. 

The station did reply back, surprising enough. Basically, they say "what you see online isn't the full truth". But based on what we see here from station contacts, i would lean more to what we see here than what the station says. The executive producer commendted that "saying anything further would be detrimental to his carreer", referencing Mr. Dunn. Sounds like a whole pile of crap to me. I got pretty much the reply I would have expected. The station distancing themselves from any responsibility and proving they are more concerned with the behind-the-scenes politics than with what goes on out in the world. They are willing to sacrifice someone that saves lives for someone that wears a suit.

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## bombermwc

I should comment a bit further on the underground thing. There is a HUGE difference between saying "try to get undergound" and "if you're not undergroup, you're going to die". How many basements have you counted in houses in OKC lately? Saferooms and Shelters have become more affordable and have gone in much more than ever, but they are still far from being in even 1/4 of the homes. I'd say they are still in less than 1/4 of NEW homes, much less existing ones. You serve no benefit but to scare the public by telling them that. Not to mention that when a tornado does go through, it usually has minimal impact. Forgive me if I sound harsh, but more often than not, you're looking at PART of a neighborhood and not a whole town. It's the quick nature of up and down tornados. Yes there are larger ones that have more staying power, like May 3rd. But you still don't help anyone out by telling them they're going to die. How about instead, offer them how to do as much as they can to protect themselves with what they have. If you dont' want them running out in the car to find an underground shelter, then their tub is probably where they are headed. At least SOME of the folks will attempt that or even offer instructions speaking to the children home alone.

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## Questor

I have often wished that our tv stations would put a fujita scale warning on the screen of some type. Like give us an extra heads up when they know something headed our way is an EF5. 

NWS does this to some degree by issuing "tornado emergencies" in these particular cases but it's surprising how few people even know about that phrase. I freaked out when NWS issued it because the last time I heard it was on May 3rd, 1999. I have friends that it seemed to confuse more th an help though. Seems like a good example of why we need a way to denote really severe tornadoes and then need to better inform the public of what that is.

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## jn1780

> I have often wished that our tv stations would put a fujita scale warning on the screen of some type. Like give us an extra heads up when they know something headed our way is an EF5. 
> 
> NWS does this to some degree by issuing "tornado emergencies" in these particular cases but it's surprising how few people even know about that phrase. I freaked out when NWS issued it because the last time I heard it was on May 3rd, 1999. I have friends that it seemed to confuse more th an help though. Seems like a good example of why we need a way to denote really severe tornadoes and then need to better inform the public of what that is.


That would just bring more confusion to the average viewer. Any tornado can be dangerous depending what structure your in. The simplest thing that people can understand is the Slight, Moderate or High severe weather system. People should supplement their local meteorologist information with official NWS information.

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## Thunder

> The simplest thing that people can understand is the Slight, Moderate or High severe weather system.


Negative.  Those has nothing to do with the severity of a tornado.

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## jn1780

> Negative.  Those has nothing to do with the severity of a tornado.


Well, if we were *forced* to measure the severity of the risk of an EF5 being in your general area, it provides some form of measurement. Especially when it comes to the difference between slight and high risks.  Sure, almost anything can happen on moderate risk days. The point is no one can classify tornadoes as their happening. You can only guess based on the parameters of the day.

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## venture

> I have often wished that our tv stations would put a fujita scale warning on the screen of some type. Like give us an extra heads up when they know something headed our way is an EF5. 
> 
> NWS does this to some degree by issuing "tornado emergencies" in these particular cases but it's surprising how few people even know about that phrase. I freaked out when NWS issued it because the last time I heard it was on May 3rd, 1999. I have friends that it seemed to confuse more th an help though. Seems like a good example of why we need a way to denote really severe tornadoes and then need to better inform the public of what that is.


The Enhanced Fujita scale is by in large a damage measuring scale. There is no way to really classify a tornado prior to seeing what it chews up. Plus, I can already see the draw backs from saying "This tornado here we are indicating it as an EF-1, and this one here and EF-4". People are going to think, "Oh it is only a One" and not take it as seriously. An EF-0 still have the ability to mess your roof up, and fling debris around that can kill. 

With that said, we have a unique advantage in Central Oklahoma with the dense radar coverage from both the CASA radars along I-44 SW of OKC and also the DOWs from OU. They can help provide a rating for a tornado based on measured wind speed as they can see closer to the surface than the WSR-88Ds that are traditionally used by all forecast offices. However, they still aren't able to get actual ground level wind readings. There is the chance though that we may be heading down the path a bit more of using radar winds for ranking tornadoes as the EF-5 from a few weeks back was rated mainly on the radar wind observations, with some damage indicators (versus mostly damage). The full set of radar data though hasn't been released (from what I've seen yet) that was collected on that storm, so there is likely a significant display that allowed them to push the EF-5 rating based on the radar data.




> Well, if we were *forced* to measure the severity of the risk of an EF5 being in your general area it provides some form of measurement. Especially when it comes to the difference between slight and high risks. Sure, almost anything can happen on moderate risk days. The point is no one can classify tornadoes as their happening. You can only guess based on the parameters of the day.


The biggest thing I think we need in this market is a return to the Slight, Moderate, and High risks and educating the public on what they mean. Channel 4, and I think 5, still use the 3 level scale that SPC and NWS does...but Channel 9 seems to do their own thing. The KWTV scale of "Severe" and "Greatest Probability" seem to more so resemble the Weather Channel scale than anything you would expect from a highly competitive, knowledgeable market. Much like the overused "Travelers Advisory" that local stations use to lump all the various sub-warning Winter Precip advisories under. To me, it dumbs the market down and doesn't help provide exact information to the public to make them aware of what could happen.

I would like to see local stations goes a step further and start showing some of the additional probability tables that SPC puts out. There are times when we can be under a Slight Risk, but there is an enhanced chance of strong tornadoes. We would never know that by just having the "Slight Risk" message relayed. 

Jumping back to the Tornado Emergency messages. That is one of those situations where we ventured down a slippery slope as soon as NWS Norman put out the first one. "Oh this isn't a tornado emergency, just a regular warning, so it isn't as bad"...is the reaction we have to be worried about. The emergency wording, which is just part of the regular warning, is there to highlight a violent tornado moving into a densely populated area. However, an EF-1 or EF-2 going into a city can cause just as much havoc and injuries/death as a stronger tornado. We really just need to get back to the point where when a tornado warning is up, just taking precautions and seeking shelter. They are nothing like a hurricane where a person could ride out a Cat 1 without issue, but needs to leave the area for a Cat 3 or higher.

----------


## TaoMaas

> There is a HUGE difference between saying "try to get undergound" and "if you're not undergroup, you're going to die".


  You're right...there is.  But on May 3rd, hiding in the bathroom wasn't going to cut it.  That's the message Gary was trying to get across.  There WAS no safe place in the house if you happened to be in the path of that storm.

----------


## Thunder

> There WAS no safe place in the house if you happened to be in the path of that storm.


Not true.  Most people in the path of that storm were perfectly fine.  They get rain, hail, wind, maybe some more.  Just another Oklahoma storm to them.  Now if we are talking about the path of that tornado, then yeah, chance of survival was very slim. :-)

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## TaoMaas

> Now if we are talking about the path of that tornado, then yeah, chance of survival was very slim. :-)


Yes...that's what we're talking about.  The houses in Moore that got hit by that tornado were scraped clean, down to the foundation.  There was no safe place inside them.

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## Questor

Hi venture. I thought someone would bring that argument up, and I understand it, but I just can't thinkbof it in any other light than to call it the "dark ages" approach. I guess I'll jst never agree that having more information on just about any topic, be it cancer or tornadoes, is a bad thing.  That is almost like making the argument that doctors should never talk survival rates or likelihood of responsiveness to treatment because all cancers are bad and we want everyone to be equally scared out of their minds regardless of whether we're talking a minor skin lesion or something more invasive. Just seems like not a good thing to me. 

The fujita scale comment is a good one but I just can't believe that meteorologists can't sometimes tell when velocities are super high and something really bad is inbound.  If they can tell the difference then why not amp up the warnings a bit. I mean clearly the already agree with this concept or NWS wouldn't issue "tornado emergencies" or use their "particularly dangerous" verbiage in weather statements, it's just you have to have a Rosetta stone to decrypt meteospeak. So that being the case why not just be more clear and less cryptic?  Ya know?

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## bluedogok

Maybe they should do a weather version of this that seemed to work so well......

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## Questor

God no. The problem with that system is that it was almost always referred to by color and no one could remember if yellow was worse than orange or vise versa or what. Add to that fact that there was no logic behind what made a situation more severe th an another, and no clear direction on what actions you were supposed to take with each level increase, and it's clear the whole thing was a waste of time. 

What I am saying is clearly define a new level of warning for storms that meet certain criteria, tell people specifically what they need to do when they hear that warning (e.g. Get below ground), call the warning or show a symbol that makes it clear what kind of warning has been issued, and train people to recognize it and know what to do. Is that really such a controversial opinion?  Really?

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## venture

Questor well it would be nice if it was possible with current technology, but it really isn't there yet. Well it isn't that the technology isn't there, it is that we don't live on a flat rock. :-)  The NSSL has a great page that helps to describe the issue with being able to see the tornadoes specifically - http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/edu/ideas/radar3.html.

To pull information from that, the tornado is typically going to be anywhere in the lowest 1 mile of the storm (well 1 mile from the ground up). So what does that mean? The radar used by NWS in Central OK (KTLX) would not be able to see below the 1 mile mark just outside the greater Oklahoma City Metro Area. However, the strongest winds are going to occur lower to the surface than that, which means the restrictions are all the greater. By the time the radar beam gets to Downtown OKC, it is already looking at 1000' up. 

Yes the technology is there where we can say that a mesocyclone is extremely strong and that it could product a stronger tornado. However, there are many times where we can see extremely strong shear in a storm, and nothing is on the ground at all. So do you start blowing the "strong tornado coming!" warning when there is still a good chance nothing is even on the ground? 

The Tornado Emergencies have always been accompanied by confirmed, spotter reported large tornadoes that are being witnessed doing significant damage heading to a densely populated area. They are never done based only on the radar presentation. Again, goes back to the downfall of the radar presentation not being able to see exactly what is going on at the surface. The PDS versions of the weather watches are good for highlighting situations when conditions are favorable (based on prior similar setups) for high end severe weather events. Unfortunately these are rarely relayed to the public...at least the Severe Thunderstorm version - like the one recently, even though it essentially busted out. 

The other problem with getting extremely detailed on storm types, are people getting too relaxed when it isn't the "May 3rd"-type tornado coming. The way current warnings are handled are fine. It would be nice though if we saw more respect given to severe thunderstorms when it comes to the potential for wind and hail damage. I think people let their guard down a bit too much with those warnings, mainly because the severe criteria is rarely met or only met in a small portion of the storm. 

There really isn't any controversy here, it is that the current system and tools in place limit how much can be relayed. We can do pretty good in getting hail estimates out there. However, wind and tornado strength estimates are always going to be limited unless we have more ground reporting from spotters, mesonets, and additional short range ground radars.

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## oneforone

I have some simple solution for severe weather warnings.

People
1. Remind people to monitor the weather daily. 
2. If storms are in the forecast, pay attention to condtions outside and check it regularly.
3. If Tornadoes, Hail, Lighting and high winds are on the way, head to shelter. 
4. Don't wait until the tornado has been confirmed to go to shelter. By then it is too late. 
5. Use common sense, don't panic... your chances of dying in a storm are actually pretty slim.

Weather Forecaster and Broadcasters

1. Tell people what's happening nothing more and nothing less.
2. Anyone who goes on the air should be required to stay calm. 
3. If the person get's scared or excited easily, they should not be allowed to speak on tv or radio during storms.
4. When the storm is clear go back to programming. Don't waste time showing and talking about damage. Save it for the next news cast.
5. If nothing is going on, go back to programming. Don't show a dark cloud covered sky with every storm spotter giving their two cents.

Common sense should always come in to play during these storms. There is no reason for anyone to panic or anyone on tv or radio to act like a kid on a sugar high at Chuckie Cheese.

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## bucktalk

_Weather Forecaster and Broadcasters

1. Tell people what's happening nothing more and nothing less.
2. Anyone who goes on the air should be required to stay calm. 
3. If the person get's scared or excited easily, they should not be allowed to speak on tv or radio during storms.
5. If nothing is going on, go back to programming. Don't show a dark cloud covered sky with every storm spotter giving their two cents.
4. When the storm is clear go back to programming. Don't waste time showing and talking about damage. Save it for the next news cast._

Sounds so logical to me.  But to some local weather personalities/news directors it would not sound logical.

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## Jim Kyle

> The Tornado Emergencies have always been accompanied by confirmed, spotter reported large tornadoes that are being witnessed doing significant damage heading to a densely populated area. They are never done based only on the radar presentation. Again, goes back to the downfall of the radar presentation not being able to see exactly what is going on at the surface.


For several years during the last half of the 1950s, I was the weather specialist for the _Oklahoman_ and spent quite a bit of time with a distant cousin named Tom Kyle who headed the weather bureau station at Will Rogers Field. He's the person who told me about the hook echo, and also the person who issued the world's very first official tornado warning (after the folk out at Tinker discovered, back in 1945, the conditions necessary for a twister to form).

In those days, Tom would NEVER issue a warning or even a watch (though that term hadn't yet come into use) based purely on radar returns, for exactly the reason you mention. The storm had to be confirmed by a reliable spotter as being on the ground before any warning came from the bureau. He did, of course, use the radar return to direct spotters into the most likely areas. Ham radio operators formed the backbone of his spotting system; all were volunteers, with mobile stations in their cars, and when a storm threatened they would go into action. On at least one occasion (in 1958 on my day off; I was an active ham at the time) I operated the base station, located in the bureau's offices atop a hangar at the original Will Rogers location on the west side of the highway, while mobile spotters took a camera crew from NWS on a search for possible funnels. Looking back it was all very primitive, but even so much better than the earlier times when a storm would drop from the sky with no warning at all...

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## bombermwc

> Yes...that's what we're talking about.  The houses in Moore that got hit by that tornado were scraped clean, down to the foundation.  There was no safe place inside them.


At the risk of sounding brash, that was also localized to basically one neighborhood in Moore as well. MOST homes in the path did not have the same experience. So in Gary's eyes and statements, everyone was going to die, that's where my problem was. I knew some folks that lived in that very neighborhood...and it did NOT wipe the foundations clean. She was right in the middle of the path in her closet. She held onto her closet rack as her feet were sucked into the air. Her closet remained intact as the rest of the house crumbled around it. He lived thank you very much. As a survivor of the storm, she would tell you that she doesn't appreciate his comments either. All it does is monger fear and helps ZERO %. Unless you lived directly in the path, you can't really speak to it. Even though I was in MWC at the time, i can't compare my experience to that of hers either. It was lifting by the time it hit MWC and was a full 2 scales lower. And that still left plenty damage.

Less here - it's a freaking tornado, F0 to F whatever, you need to be careful and pay attention. Straight line winds, microbursts, downdrafts, etc....they all can do plenty damage. Just because the house didn't come off the foundation didn't meant it wasn't a total loss either. The MWC mostly were protected as their house was lifted and slammed back down at an angle. My aunt had part of someone's roof end up in her roof. My sister, who was at Rose State at the time, had a car that look like it was plastered with an insulation gun.

There's plenty enough devestation going on in a storm like this. My point is, why make it worse by telling people they are going to die? It serves no purpose but to scare them. So the tornado is headed to your house, you have no damned underground place to go like 99% of us out there, and Gary tells you that you're going to die. Personally, I would tell him to go screw himself and I'll take my chances in the closet.

Only 48 people died on May 3rd. How many thousands in the path were NOT undergound?

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## TaoMaas

> My point is, why make it worse by telling people they are going to die? It serves no purpose but to scare them.


Well that's just it....did it make it worse?  You have one story.  There were many, many others that day who said that the "get underground" warning made all the difference to their survival.  Have we had a worse tornado before or since?  If you're not going to give that kind of warning in an F5, then when?  Do you lie to the people and tell them not to worry?  LOL

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## Jersey Boss

> Maybe they should do a weather version of this that seemed to work so well......


Not, as it was shown to be manipulated.

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## Questor

So I guess you all must also be in favor of blowing the sirens across all 650 square miles of the city when a tornado clips part of Moore?

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## TaoMaas

> So I guess you all must also be in favor of blowing the sirens across all 650 square miles of the city when a tornado clips part of Moore?


After it clips Moore?  No.    
Prior to the tornado heading into the city when it's uncertain exactly what course it'll take through town?  Yes...most definitely.

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## Questor

A tornado that has been traveling up the turnpike on a straight path from Chickasha to Moore has almost zero chance of turning due north or NW and hitting the area north and west of Lake Hefner.  That would be a one in a million storm.  Yet we still blow the sirens for that area when Moore is being hit every single time, even though it's just not realistic.  It makes sense to me that this would be the prevailing opinion though, it kind of goes hand in hand with not wanting to change the way storm announcements are done in any way.  There's sort of a prevailing "government/authority knows best and needs to protect you" mentality in this state.  I give up, everything is fine and the way we've been doing business for 50 years is clearly the answer.    No need to account for a complete technological and media revolution since then.

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## bornhere

The city's siren system was replaced top to bottom eight or nine years ago. Maybe someone knows whether the sirens can be activated by sections, or if it was designed to be 'all or nothing.'

Even if they were to be activated by sections, I don't know who would make the decision about which ones are turned on and which ones aren't.

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## venture

> A tornado that has been traveling up the turnpike on a straight path from Chickasha to Moore has almost zero chance of turning due north or NW and hitting the area north and west of Lake Hefner.  That would be a one in a million storm.  Yet we still blow the sirens for that area when Moore is being hit every single time, even though it's just not realistic.  It makes sense to me that this would be the prevailing opinion though, it kind of goes hand in hand with not wanting to change the way storm announcements are done in any way.  There's sort of a prevailing "government/authority knows best and needs to protect you" mentality in this state.  I give up, everything is fine and the way we've been doing business for 50 years is clearly the answer.    No need to account for a complete technological and media revolution since then.


Seems like a sour grapes response, but I'll comment on it regardless. There are many times when a storm's movement can be very erratic. You are right that typically a storm heading for Moore likely won't swing back and head to NW OK. However, there are times when you can get a storm that develops a left split and that cell could intensify. Of course the original storm has a higher chance of right turning and heading further East or SE. 

If the concern is local EMs blowing the sirens for too much of their city, that will probably change more and more. Norman did a completely upgrade and deployed an entirely new siren system over the winter. They have the ability to only warn sections of the city based on storm movement and the warning polygon from the NWS. The main reason for this is to avoid situations like you describe. Some people may not realize, but Norman city limits go from the Canadian River to the west all to way to almost the Pottawatomie County line to the east. It includes all of Lake Thunderbird and every place in between. That's 178 square miles of land that Norman itself is responsible for (48th largest city in the US by land area). 

So a lot of your assumptions aren't correct as there are changes in the works to make warnings more accurate and specific for areas, especially when it comes to the outdoor warning systems.

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## TaoMaas

> There's sort of a prevailing "government/authority knows best and needs to protect you" mentality in this state.


You're right.  The NWS should just shut the h*ll up and let people go out and see for themselves if the weather warrants taking precautions.

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## Questor

I'm not sure which assumptions aren't correct. OKC has had the ability to sound sirens in sections for something like 10 years now but I don't believe they have ever once used that capability. It's great that Norman has added that ability as well... hope they decide to actually use it some day.  I don't understand why they wouldn't... sure storms are unpredictable, but I can think of so many times where we had a very isolated, single storm that really had no chance of going anywhere but where it was headed and yet we still sounded the sirens for the entire city.  I guess my fear is that we are constantly 'crying wolf' by doing what we do and it makes people numb to the sirens.  Everyone worries about the opposite problem, but no one ever talks about the crying wolf problem.  You'll have to forgive my sour grapes response. It's hard to believe but I tend to get irritated after getting crapped on from all sides for ten posts. The additional warning discussion that devolved into terrorist threat level examples and all that is a great example. The military has employed five levels of "Threat Cons" (that describe anti-terror/anti-threat base fortification levels) for years that have worked very well, do not cause confusion, and are very clear in the type of response to be evoked with each new level. I understand the desire to leave well enough alone but the response I got from most on this site, that folks just aren't smart enough to deal with _one new level_, is just a really bad argument since the military's system proves otherwise. I think the real argument is over not making things overly complex and making sure that warnings are clear and concise, which I totally agree with and do not think that adding an additional level of warning would violate that thought process.  In fact I think that what we have today is already convoluted.  We only have watches and warnings that go out to the general public yet NWS routinely has a list of their own nomenclature that they use that means a lot more to meteorologists and storm chasers. The lay person unfortunately is lost as it is like trying to decipher the words of Allen Greenspan and all we are left with is "keep an eye out" or "OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!" So all I'm really saying is that I think the problem is already there and that we should do something to clarify things, that's all. If folks don't agree with that that's fine. Not so much yours but I viewed the other guys response as so flippant as to be insulting. Everybody has different ideas, people disagree, that's fine, I just found the responses overly negative and childish. Sorry if I responded in kind. I suppose that's just the way it is on message boards.

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## Joe Kimball

Yes, they announced the siren's selective capabilities in _The Oklahoman_ back then, as well as their abilities to sound different tones as well as broadcast speech.  They're really gigantic speakers. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjkxVZfyY8

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## Questor

> Yes, they announced the siren's selective capabilities in _The Oklahoman_ back then, as well as their abilities to sound different tones as well as broadcast speech.  They're really gigantic speakers. 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjkxVZfyY8


That's a great example.  I'm all for technological innovation.  So I think it's a great thing that these sirens can blow for selective areas, can generate all sorts of different tones, and can even act as a loudspeaker.  These are great capabilities.  Why aren't we using them?

That's really my only point when it comes to stuff like this.  If we know more about storms now, then why don't we try to convey more information about them?  If we have better technology today that can deliver differentiating alert levels, then why don't we use them?

I mean at the end of the day I'm already doing that _for me_.  I have mobile devices and radios that have specific SAME codes set in them.  I know how to get to websites that have real time radar data and can generate storm tracks.  I know what frequency the storm chaser's WeatherNet is broadcast on.  I can get the information I want, and it is way better than anything I have ever seen on TV.  I don't understand why we wouldn't want to welcome our media to the 21st Century as well.  I guess I'll shut up now.

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## Questor

duplicate

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## venture

I guess it just depends on how much more in depth you think we can possibly go. Tornado Warning is pretty clear...either a spotter reported tornado or storm exhibiting signs of strong rotation that could product any moment. Pretty clear cut. It has the "PDS"-like upscale wording of "Tornado Emergency" for when densely populated areas may get impacted. If a tornado is reported, by spotters, to be a large - descructive - wedge - whatever - tornado, then the wording gets passed along in the warning as well. 

The current system already has multi-levels for what you are using as examples:

1 - Tornado Warning / Tornado Emergency
2 - Severe Thunderstorm Warning
3 - Significant Weather Advisory
4 - PDS Watches
5 - Standard Watches

Out of all of those, the Severe Thunderstorm Warning is really the only thing that comes to mind that could use some tweaks. Too often we get the warnings on a storm that will only provide gusts of 55-60 mph (58 mph is severe) with littler to no hail or anything else. At the end of the day, this doesn't really get any ones attention and could just continue to have people ignore the SVR warnings unless it is right on top of them.

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## Larry OKC

It used to be that a Tornado Warning meant that an actual tornado was spotted or indicated on radar. Now it seems to mean that conditions are favorable (that is what a Tornado Watch was for). When did it change?

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## MikeOKC

> I guess it just depends on how much more in depth you think we can possibly go. Tornado Warning is pretty clear...either a spotter reported tornado or storm exhibiting signs of strong rotation that could product any moment. Pretty clear cut. It has the "PDS"-like upscale wording of "Tornado Emergency" for when densely populated areas may get impacted. If a tornado is reported, by spotters, to be a large - descructive - wedge - whatever - tornado, then the wording gets passed along in the warning as well. 
> 
> The current system already has multi-levels for what you are using as examples:
> 
> 1 - Tornado Warning / Tornado Emergency
> 2 - Severe Thunderstorm Warning
> 3 - Significant Weather Advisory
> 4 - PDS Watches
> 5 - Standard Watches
> ...


Good information, as always from you. 

Question: What exactly does "PDS" stand for? I've been sitting here thinking and it seems like I remember Gary England saying it was "Particularly Dangerous Storm." Is that right or was he being colloquial?

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## venture

> It used to be that a Tornado Warning meant that an actual tornado was spotted or indicated on radar. Now it seems to mean that conditions are favorable (that is what a Tornado Watch was for). When did it change?


I'm going to assume this is sarcasm since it is still done that way. 




> Good information, as always from you. 
> 
> Question: What exactly does "PDS" stand for? I've been sitting here thinking and it seems like I remember Gary England saying it was "Particularly Dangerous Storm." Is that right or was he being colloquial?


PDS = Particularly Dangerous Situation

SPC provides this info on it in their FAQ:

*2.7 I noticed the wording "THIS IS A PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS SITUATION" in some of your watches. What does this mean? What is the criteria for a PDS watch?* 

The "particularly dangerous situation" wording is used in rare situations when long-lived, strong and violent tornadoes are possible. This enhanced wording may also accompany severe thunderstorm watches for exceptionally intense and well organized convective wind storms. PDS watches are issued, when in the opinion of the forecaster, the likelihood of significant events is boosted by very volatile atmospheric conditions. Usually this decision is based on a number of atmospheric clues and parameters, so the decision to issue a PDS watch is subjective. There is no hard threshold or criteria. In high risk outlooks PDS watches are issued most often.

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## jn1780

This is basically the "airplane vs car" argument or in this case "car vs house" argument. Assuming your house is a solid structure bolted to a foundation, 95% of the time your safer in the center part of your house than fleeing from the tornado in your car if you don't have a storm shelter.   May 3rd was rare in that people in south Oklahoma City had the opportunity to drive away because that tornado was on the ground for a long time before reaching the southern parts of the metro.  

I guess those people who are worried about <5% or live in a mobile home need to build a storm shelter, find a friend with one, or take the day off and flee west to the other side of the dry line before the storms fire. LOL

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## Larry OKC

> I'm going to assume this is sarcasm since it is still done that way


Wasn't being sarcastic at all. Have seen it several times this year on all 3 of the local stations. After putting up the graphic with the Tornado WARNING, often the weather person will say something to the effect that  "a tornado has NOT been sighted/confirmed/touched down and one is NOT indicated on radar" just that it _could_ happen. 

Again, it was my understanding that is what a Tornado WATCH was for..."conditions are favorable" it _could_ happen.

A Tornado WARNING meant that one has touched down/spotted/confirmed and/or verified by radar.

They have been doing the same with other "warnings" (like flash flood), no flash flood has happened just a pretty good chance of it (which means it should be a "watch")

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## bombermwc

AMEN Larry. They throw out Tornado Warning so often now, it almost doesn't mean anything. Back when it meant there actaully was a tornado, it meant something. Now as soon as the clouds start spinning, out pops a warning. It's yet another "boy who cried wolf" case coming up. All this crap started after May 3rd. It's like after that, all weathermen decided that the world had to change and every storm had to be 10 times worse than they even were before then. The more technology they throw at things, the more they realize they don't know jack crap still so they make everything into a bigger deal than it is.

We have plenty lead time on things now, there really does need to be a middle ground between a watch and a warning. Throw something in there that says, "hey, conditions are favorable for a tornado right here in this area so watch out. We haven't seen one come down yet, but there's a high chance one might happen so go ahead and get ready for it". That way when one does come down, you know it's for real. I wont say I ignore tornado warnings anymore because that's not true (and would be very stupid if I did), but they definitely don't hold the same importance they once did....and it's the fault of the weathermen for that.

I will say, you have to place blame on ALL fronts as well. The National Weather Service is where these warnings are issued from, not the TV stations. The stations just report (and dramatise) the situation. It's very rare that you'll see them discover something before the NWS on radar. Remember the NWS has the better toys, they just don't have the foot soldiers.

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## venture

Okay this is a bit off course now. Larry from your post I started to understand what you meant, a bit. From what I've observed, I have seen the TV STATIONS come out and say "Tornado Warning" when one of their spotters have either seen a brief tornado or when they think a tornado could form at any time based on the radar presentation. I've never seen the NWS just toss them out with out any verifiable indicators - at least from the Norman office. I won't get into Flash Flood right now because those can be very subjective to specific areas of a city/county based on previous flood history and the amount of estimated precip that has fallen. There are plenty of times when a Flash Flood warning can be put up for Cleveland County, but it really only is noticed in a few parts of Norman that turn into a lake after a sprinkle.

To Bomber's comments - I agree local media has gone a bit crazy lately. It is a mass ratings drive that spurs a lot of it though. We already have a middle ground between watch and warning, it is called a "Severe Weather Statement" or "Special Weather Statement". Both of these are used, the 2nd one is usually broadcast with the language "Significant Weather Advisory" that is meant to alert counties when a storm is getting stronger but not yet severe. The local stations relay this as "Heavy Thunderstorm" on their maps. 

I will disagree with the point that you can place any blame on the NWS for this. Are their warnings that shouldn't be issued? Perhaps, but they don't pull the trigger unless that forecaster feels that a storm are reached a threshold that requires warning. I also completely disagree with the point on "they just don't have the foot soldiers". The NWS has more eyes on the ground than all the local media combined. The vast network of Skywarn and amateur radio operators that relay information back to the Norman NWS is substantial. That is why you can watch a radar presentation show very strong signs of rotation or large hail, and no warning comes out because they have eyes on the ground near that storm and are waiting for ground verification before they pull the trigger. Does this mean that local TV stations don't see something before the NWS/Skywarn team? Not at all. Many cases of a media chaser catching a brief tornado after being in the right place at the right time.

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## oneforone

I don't the storms should be used as a last minute warning like many people think it should be. If anything a siren activation should mean, go to an information source that will advise you on weather and other alerts. If it does not effect you, go back to whatever your doing. That is exactly what I do. Most of us live in work in somewhat sound proof structures where a storm siren sounds like somebody running the vacuum in the next room. The sirens should not be used for severe weather only they should be used for any kind of emergency. Gas leak, Chemical Spill, explosives attack, mad gunman on the loose, godzilla invading the city, etc. etc.

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## Larry OKC

Thanks Venture, think we are on the same page now...

And thanks Bomber for at least seeing the same thing too (I wasn't imagining it)...

Agree with what 1-4-1 is saying and that is how I use the siren...get to a radio or tv and find out if I need to run for cover!

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## lake hefner breeze

"Gary, we've got a major thread derailment over here on the internet at OKCtalk, you might want to declare it a PDS...Mason Dunn, Ranger Nine, back to you."

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## SoonerBeerMan

Per The Lost Ogle (http://www.thelostogle.com/2011/07/2...-9/#more-16924)

Well, it looks like some helicopter drama is unfolding over the Oklahoma City metro.

We have learned that Bob Moore Chopper 4 pilot Jim Gardner will be leaving Channel 4 to take over the piloting duties for Channel 9. Gardner will be replacing Mason Dunn who was fired in June.

Here’s an email sent by Channel 9′s Todd Spessard to employees earlier today:

From: “Spessard, Todd”
Date: July 28, 2011 10:31:58 AM CDT
To: Griffin Communications – All Staff
Subject: SkyNews 9 HD Pilot Announcement

Hello all, I’m pleased and excited to let you know that Jim Gardner will be joining Oklahoma’s Own News 9 as the full time pilot of SkyNews 9 HD.   Jim will bring more than 25  years of experience to News 9 and has won numerous Emmy Awards for his piloting and reporting including his coverage of the May 3rd 1999 Tornados and 2003 Oklahoma City Tornados.  Jim got his start in California working in film and photo work and then became the morning pilot for KCAL where he covered numerous stories including the LA riots, earthquakes, wild fires, flooding, mudslides and the O.J. Simpson chase.

Jim and I have had several conversations over the past few weeks and I can tell you that he is very excited to make the move.  Jim will make a great addition to our team.  Jim is currently under contract with KFOR—so his start date with us is TBA.  In the meantime, we have an active plan to make sure we are covered when it comes to flying. Thanks—and holler with questions.

Cheers,Todd

Todd Spessard
Director, PM Content

Also, here’s a snippet of an email sent to News 9 advertisers by an advertising account executive for Channel 9. It shows how News 9 is already spinning the situation to the people who really matter…their advertisers:

You may have noticed that our helicopter has been grounded for a short time. We are really happy about hiring this new pilot who already has a great reputation in the Oklahoma City Market, and brings with him the best experience a pilot can have, when it comes to covering news stories. This will translate to higher viewership, higher ratings, more people watching our news. We are proud to acquire the best news helicopter pilot in the country, and we will have him on board shortly.

We’ll have more on this story later, but here are some quick questions:

• Are there any legal ramifications to this? For example, is Channel 9 allowed to negotiate with someone who is under contract with a local competitor?

• What are the odds that Mason Dunn replaces Jim Gardener at Channel 4?

• What does Gary England think about this?

Let us know in the comments.

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## venture

Not really shocked to be honest. I would almost assume Mason gets hired by Channel 4 at this time, if he is still in town and looking. 

I also expect that Channel 9 will make a play for either Mike or Rick when Gary retires.

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## RadicalModerate

I will personally guarantee [you, or anyone else] that anytime you see an email begining with . . .

"Hello all, I’m pleased and *excited* . . ."

And ending with:

. . . . "Cheers" 

Everything in between is [bovine fertilizer].

I guess that the state of media middle-management in Oklahoma--and most likely everywhere else--is even more sorry and insipid than I previously believed.

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## adaniel

KWTV's ratings will still stink. I like Jim Gardner but trust me he doesn't "make" Channel 4. Plus I don't see his energetic, almost hyperventalating meshing up with Gary's style. He will regret this move once they make him fly 12 hours straight looking at clouds.  

And yes KFOR is probably typing up Mason Dunn's contract right now. With all this moving around things are going to be awkward at the next Ogle Family BBQ.

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## RadicalModerate

*"With all this moving around things are going to be awkward at the next Ogle Family BBQ."*

Perfection.

(I woulda PM'd that there, but I ain't figgured out that there function yet...)

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## kevinpate

> *...*
> 
> (I woulda PM'd that there, but I ain't figgured out that there function yet...)



For you, and others.  One way is to place your cursor on the person's name and then left click

Box opens

Scroll down to Private message link in the box.  Click

New screen opens.

Enter PM message title

Enter PM message text

Scroll down and click Submit message button.

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## Thunder

I am shocked and disappointed in his mistake on moving to KWTV.

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## RadicalModerate

Thank you, Kevin.

That sounds a whole lot easier than flying a helicopter in and around thunderstorms for [over] [twelve] hours and then, after landing, having to deal with some over-amped--"excited"--pinhead in a suit, about whether you were doing enough for the company while he is texting someone else entirely about an entirely different matter.  (There's "Multi-Tasking" and then there is flying helicopters. =)

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## binners41

I guess since Mason is out of a job, and Jim Gardner is now his replacement......wouldn't it be logical for Mason to move to NewsChannel 4? Love Jim Gardner, but do not care for Gary England.

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## Dustin

NOOOO!!!!!! Why Jim why!?!?!?!

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## drum4no1

I know the underlying motives for his move.  I dont blame him for the decision.  Just will be a shame to not see him around the station


when the Bob Moore contract is up it may be curtains for 4's chopper

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## SoonerBeerMan

> I know the underlying motives for his move.  I dont blame him for the decision.  Just will be a shame to not see him around the station
> 
> 
> when the Bob Moore contract is up it may be curtains for 4's chopper


Care to share what the "underlying motives" are???

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## drum4no1

He got a better deal. business pure and simple

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## Midtowner

> • Are there any legal ramifications to this? For example, is Channel 9 allowed to negotiate with someone who is under contract with a local competitor?


I can't think of any.

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## TaoMaas

Wow...all I can think of is "that's a hell of a lot of money to pay to cover up the screw-up of a new news director!"  Jim will do well wherever he lands.  If Ch. 4 were smart (and they are), they'd be picking up the contract on Mason Dunn before the ink is dry on Jim Gardner's new deal with Ch. 9.  I think Ch. 4 will come out the winner on this thing and Ch. 9 will continue to show the poor decision-making that has landed them in 3rd place in the ratings.

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## venture

As much as I don't really care for the Morgan hype machine, I really enjoy Mason's reporting during storm coverage. Always very calm and no fluff. It might finally be the end of watching 9 during severe weather.

You would think Channel 9 would push to make other changes to improve their ratings. Perhaps staffing their on camera news crew with ditzy bimbos isn't the way to go that would find it difficult to get a weekend reporter gig in a larger market.

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## OKCTalker

It's been awhile, but Mason Dunn parked his truck on the Channel 9's helipad (against corporate policy and in defiance of common sense), forgot about it, and then pushed the helicopter into his truck (the helo was on wheels). It was going to be a double ass-kicking if he got caught (the parking infraction plus dinging their helicopter), so he ordered parts to repair the damage and didn't tell anyone. As he was waiting for them to arrive - sure enough - severe weather came in. "Mason - get in the air!" But he couldn't because the helicopter was grounded. So you can imagine the news director dealing with incoming severe weather, and then finding out that Mason broke the helicopter and tried to cover it up. 

Incidentally, he isn't licensed to perform repair work on helicopters, so he was about to knowingly violate federal regulations by making the repairs, and even more regulations by flying an improperly-serviced aircraft. 

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. 

If Channel 4 wants to hire a guy with a recent history of snowballing judgmental errors, go right ahead. I'd only ask that he keep the helicopter away from my neighborhood.

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## RadicalModerate

OKT'r:
I honestly think that your post needs to appear on (or in) The Wikipedia Version of Events and History.
(No snark was involved nor injured in the typing of the sentence immediately preceeding this one. =)

Is there an Award for : Excellence in Virtual StoryTelling?

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## Sammie

So maybe Channel 9 had reasons.  And it sure sounds that way.  I may be low in the News 9 food chain, but I heard what happened that night... and it's amazing he wasn't fired on the spot.  

Oh, and take a look at this.  Mason was the pilot:
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/J_0725_N.txt

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## venture

Hmm...gonna have to call BS on this one. Just doesn't smell right. The blessing of anonymous posters who have no accountability for what is posted.

Sounds like someone closer to the situation that is preaching sour grapes.

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## drum4no1

I may be low on the KFOR totem pole but the account and accident that sammie has given is the same as I have heard so I dont dismiss it.  

Ill quote someone in the know..: Mason is done as a tv chopper pilot in this city"

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## rcjunkie

> I may be low on the KFOR totem pole but the account and accident that sammie has given is the same as I have heard so I dont dismiss it.  
> 
> Ill quote someone in the know..: *Mason is done as a tv chopper pilot in this city"*


*
*

Then please explain why he's already under contact with another local TV Station!!

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## yukong

> So maybe Channel 9 had reasons.  And it sure sounds that way.  I may be low in the News 9 food chain, but I heard what happened that night... and it's amazing he wasn't fired on the spot.  
> 
> Oh, and take a look at this.  Mason was the pilot:
> http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/J_0725_N.txt


According to Helihub.com, the copter in that crash is owned by Interstate Helicopter in Bethany and is apparently leased to KTUL Channel 8 in Tulsa, FWIW.

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## Sammie

> [/B]
> 
> Then please explain why he's already under contact with another local TV Station!!


Which station?

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## rizzo

According to this the Helicopter incident claimed in a previous post was piloted by Mason.  He was flying for KTUL out of Tulsa?? 
23-Jul-11 N118TV Bell 206 Randlett, US-Oklahoma
Helihub RSS Feed

Struck powerlines and force landed.  It is believed that this helicopter operates for the ABC channel 8 KTUL under the name Ranger 8″

Date
    23-Jul-11
Make
    Bell
Model
    B206
Reg
    N118TV
Country
    US-Oklahoma
Location
    Randlett
CivilMilitary
    Civil
MSN
    2844
Operator
    Interstate-Helicopter

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## BBatesokc

> You can't fire the guy that saved "Bambi" on a frozen lake!  Maybe it's time for a new News Director.


I know, I'm late to the party. Just got around to reading some of this. Don't know if it was mentioned in this thread, but 'Bambi' the wayward deer actually died right after he got off the frozen pond. Seriously. They were not allowed to report it (doesn't make quite as good of a story) but the deer had a heart attack and died presumably (fairly common with stressed deer).

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## RadicalModerate

I would ask, "....and, what is your point?"
But I know that it has something to do with the otter rescued from the oil spill out in California, cleaned up, then released back into the wilds of the ocean . . . only to be eaten by a killer shark as the local high school band (from Bodega Bay where Alfred Hitchcock filmed "The Birds") played on . . .

Ironically, the actual Bambi ran out in front of Walt Disney's Bentley and caused extensive damage to the right front fender while he was on a trip to Wisconsin.  (Walt.  On the trip. Not Bambi. Native.)

Late?  Party?
Whut Party? . . .

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## venture

> I know, I'm late to the party. Just got around to reading some of this. Don't know if it was mentioned in this thread, but 'Bambi' the wayward deer actually died right after he got off the frozen pond. Seriously. They were not allowed to report it (doesn't make quite as good of a story) but the deer had a heart attack and died presumably (fairly common with stressed deer).


To bad you weren't out there with your video camera to make sure the public was informed. :-P lol

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## Thunder

> I know, I'm late to the party. Just got around to reading some of this. Don't know if it was mentioned in this thread, but 'Bambi' the wayward deer actually died right after he got off the frozen pond. Seriously. They were not allowed to report it (doesn't make quite as good of a story) but the deer had a heart attack and died presumably (fairly common with stressed deer).


Why couldn't you keep your mouth shut? Thx for ruining it. :-(

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## MDot

> To bad you weren't out there with your video camera to make sure the public was informed. :-P lol


 :LolLolLolLol:

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## RadicalModerate

I guess it's like Dr. Vic said about his monster . . .
"There's more to this 'necroing' threads than meets the aye."

*a tip o' the hat to Venture for the term "necroing".  =)

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## BBatesokc

> Why couldn't you keep your mouth shut? Thx for ruining it. :-(


Yeah, its always better when the news plays something up as such a touching moment (over and over again) when in reality they know the truth and forbid anyone from talking about it because its ruins their marketing of it and their brand.

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## rcjunkie

> I know, I'm late to the party. Just got around to reading some of this. Don't know if it was mentioned in this thread, but 'Bambi' the wayward deer actually died right after he got off the frozen pond. Seriously. They were not allowed to report it (doesn't make quite as good of a story) but the deer had a heart attack and died presumably (fairly common with stressed deer).


I could sure go for a bowl of Venison chili.

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## kevinpate

> I could sure go for a bowl of Venison chili.



Bambi Bit Chili - another tasty MIO product

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## Thunder

> Bambi Bit Chili - another tasty MIO product


This is not funny after Brian reported on Bambi's death. >_<

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## demoman

> This is not funny after Brian reported on Bambi's death. >_<


See Godzilla vs. Bambi... Nuff said.

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## MDot

> See Godzilla vs. Bambi... Nuff said.


That's not even fair... Nuff said.  :Chef:

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## MikeLucky

> Bambi Bit Chili - another tasty MIO product


Oh, I'll tell you what... Twin Peaks has some REALLY REALLY good venison chili.  I was very impressed.

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## okc_bel_air

Any news about where Jim Gardner went?  Channel 4 still shows him as the pilot but you never hear about him anymore.

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## jn1780

> Any news about where Jim Gardner went?  Channel 4 still shows him as the pilot but you never hear about him anymore.


Still there waiting for his contract to end. Channel 4 is keeping him out of sight.

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## Tydude

news9 has someone to be a pilot until Jim Gardner leaves Channel 4

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## Thunder

> Still there waiting for his contract to end. Channel 4 is keeping him out of sight.


It really shows how cruel the people are at KFOR.  I used to be a huge fan, but since I got recruited onto KOCO, I haven't been watching KFOR much.  I feel bad for Jim having to work for them while they all just ignore him and not giving due credit.

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## Tydude

> It really shows how cruel the people are at KFOR.  I used to be a huge fan, but since I got recruited onto KOCO, I haven't been watching KFOR much.  I feel bad for Jim having to work for them while they all just ignore him and not giving due credit.


i only watch KFOR during they noon newscast when i am at home other then that i watch KOCO 5

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## adaniel

> It really shows how cruel the people are at KFOR.  I used to be a huge fan, but since I got recruited onto KOCO, I haven't been watching KFOR much.  I feel bad for Jim having to work for them while they all just ignore him and not giving due credit.


Why on earth would you feel sorry for a helicopter pilot that's making close to if not over six figures, and probably just got a huge raise by switching over to Channel 9?

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## Tydude

he might of left KFOR because of more money that 9 is giving him i don't fell bad at all that he is leaving KFOR

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## Thunder

I feel bad for Jim having to deal with the disrespect that KFOR is doing to him.  They ignore him.  They don't mention him.  They don't let him talk on the air.  All nothing.  He is still an employee and his contract is still active until later this year.  Its like the entire KFOR shunned him for leaving.

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## drum4no1

Right now Jim isnt the one flying for KFOR, he is medically restricted from flying right now.  His understudy is flying..

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## Tydude

that is why they didn't mention his name when they use bob more chopper 4

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## TaoMaas

> I feel bad for Jim having to deal with the disrespect that KFOR is doing to him.  They ignore him.  They don't mention him.  They don't let him talk on the air.  All nothing.  He is still an employee and his contract is still active until later this year.  Its like the entire KFOR shunned him for leaving.


That's pretty standard, Thunder.  If a station is losing a high-profile employee to a competitor, they try to blunt their popularity by taking them off the air for a while.  KOCO did the same thing with Mike Morgan when he was moving to Ch. 4.

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## yukong

So is Jim Gardner still going to KWTV?  Just tonight, I saw a commercial on 9 advertising their new helicopter pilot who is a former Army Blackhawk pilot.

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## venture

That ad has been playing for a week or two I think. Had the same thought if they just tossed in the towel on the idea.

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## oneforone

It is possible that KFOR gave Jim a better offer to stay on board.

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## venture

> It is possible that KFOR gave Jim a better offer to stay on board.


I would think if they did then they would be using his name again on air, which they haven't.

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## MikeOKC

> I would think if they did then they would be using his name again on air, which they haven't.


Or, maybe he decided to go back to California.

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## jn1780

KFOR must have found a new pilot because they are airing promo's about a new member to the team being announce Tuesday and the sound of a helicopter starting up, playing in the background.

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## Tydude

John Welsh is the new Channel 4 Pilot

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## jn1780

> John Welsh is the new Channel 4 Pilot


Is Jim Gardner still going to KWTV or is the new trend to replace all the pilots with younger ex army helicopter pilots?

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## Tydude

> Is Jim Gardner still going to KWTV or is the new trend to replace all the pilots with younger ex army helicopter pilots?


yes he is heading over to news 9

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## Tydude

this is from KFOR Facebook page 



> Thanks to you who have asked what happened to Jim Gardner. Last year Jim decided he wasn’t going to renew his contract to fly Chopper 4. Although he is no longer flying, he’s still with us as an employee in a different capacity. Jim plans to leave when his contract expires later this year. Like you, we wish him well.


So it sounds like he will be joining KWTV next year

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## jn1780

> employee in a different capacity


So their basically paying him to do nothing until his contract is up. lol

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## Tydude

yep exactly i think he really want to go and fly a helicopter but he can't do so

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## drumsncode

Here's the quote from above:

Thanks to you who have asked what happened to Jim Gardner. Last year Jim decided he wasn’t going to renew his contract to fly Chopper 4. Although he is no longer flying, he’s still with us as an employee in a different capacity. Jim plans to leave when his contract expires later this year. Like you, we wish him well.

Now here's the translation without all the politically correct garbage:

Please stop hounding us about Jim Gardner.  KWTV stole him from us, just like they did Bobbie Miller.  We could have let him go immediately, but we're so petty that we are going to keep him here in misery until his contract expires.  It's well worth the money to prevent him from doing sweeps coverage at KWTV.  We know you wish him well, but we're kinda hoping he dings the NEWS 9 copter and ruins it for a few months.  (Not that we're bitter or anything!)  ;-)

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## venture

LOL pretty much.

So July 28th is when they announced the hire internally. Would that be pretty close to the end of his contract?  Definitely see where they want to keep him off air for the April/May/June storm season.

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## woodyrr

> . . . . Now here's the translation without all the politically correct garbage:
> 
> Please stop hounding us about Jim Gardner.  KWTV stole him from us, just like they did Bobbie Miller.  We could have let him go immediately, but we're so petty that we are going to keep him here in misery until his contract expires.  It's well worth the money to prevent him from doing sweeps coverage at KWTV.  We know you wish him well, but we're kinda hoping he dings the NEWS 9 copter and ruins it for a few months.  (Not that we're bitter or anything!)  ;-)


That was worth reading. I was in a pretty foul mood until I read that. I had been wondering what was going on. At least they didn't shove him down a memory hole. "_Jim who? You must be mistaken: There is not now nor has there ever been a helicopter pilot with that name at KFOR._".

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## drum4no1

> That was worth reading. I was in a pretty foul mood until I read that. I had been wondering what was going on. At least they didn't shove him down a memory hole. "_Jim who? You must be mistaken: There is not now nor has there ever been a helicopter pilot with that name at KFOR._".


sad thing is thats pretty much what they have done..he's counting down the days until july and I dont blame him.  He is a top notch pilot and nice guy. It will be a shame to not see him in the hallways.   They may publicly wish him well but he has been treated poorly since

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## Thunder

*That is sad for Jimmy.  He got no work to do through this predicted active storm season.  The outbreaks coming up this week will be painful for Jimmy to just sit by doing nothing.  :-(  

As for Chopper 4's new pilot, which is it... John or Jon?  It's been typed both ways on CC.*

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## Tydude

Jim will probably help in the behind the scenes with the severe weather

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## Tydude

Does anyone know what Mason Dunn is doing these days is he still flying News Helicopters?

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