# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Tulsa & Suburbs >  Nordstrom's to Tulsa?

## Swake

Theres a rumor with a some traction on TulsaNow that two very long time Tulsa institutions at Utica Square are going away. Miss Jacksons,  an upscale department store for women and Pettys Fine Foods will be replaced by a new Nordstroms location. Utica will also add a Fresh Market in a new building at the southeast corner of the square.

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## Pete

Would be the world's tiniest Nordstrom.

Would even be small for a Nordstrom Rack.

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## Swake

I wouldn't think that they would keep the current buildings. Petty's is a one story building and Miss Jackson's building is three.

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## Pete

Still, the footprint of those two stores is very small; not nearly big enough for a Nordies, even if it was 3 stories tall.

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## Spartan

What is corroborating these rumors? Nordstrom will likely want subsidy...

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## bchris02

I know Tulsa punches a good deal above its weight, but are there any other metropolitan areas its size that have a full-fledged Nordstrom?

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## gopokes88

Future Nordstrom Store Openings

80% of the new locations are Racks
5% are relocations
15% are new full fledged Nordstroms they are in Toronto, Manhattan, Norwalk CT, Austin, Milwaukee, Minn, and Vancouver. Not saying Tulsa isn't in their sights but those are all big cities with lots of money. (Norwalk is part of the NYC metro)

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## Swake

The rumor is from some of the same people that knew very early about Trader Joe's. And Tulsa does have a funding mechanism in place to bring in new retail. Costco is getting some of that money, REI has decided to forego it in order to not have city council oversight on their development.

Cities about Tulsa's size or smaller with a full Nordstrom location:
Tulsa  961,561

Metro areas with Nordstrom stores:
Salem, OR  - 400,408
Orem, UT  555,551
Richmond, VA  1,260,029
Spokane, WA  540,953
Anchorage, AK  396,142
Hartford, CT  1,212,381
Honolulu, HI  953,207

That said, this is just a rumor at this point and the site is pretty small unless they go up 3+ floors or extend out into what is currently parking.

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## gopokes88

> The rumor is from some of the same people that knew very early about Trader Joe's. And Tulsa does have a funding mechanism in place to bring in new retail. Costco is getting some of that money, REI has decided to forego it in order to not have city council oversight on their development.
> 
> Cities about Tulsa's size or smaller with a full Nordstrom location:
> Tulsa – 961,561
> 
> Metro areas with Nordstrom stores:
> Salem, OR  - 400,408
> Orem, UT – 555,551
> Richmond, VA – 1,260,029
> ...


I get all that but their _future_ expansion patterns suggest they are banking hard on the rack concept and not as much of a full fledged store.

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## bchris02

> Metro areas with Nordstrom stores:
> Salem, OR  - 400,408
> Orem, UT  555,551
> Richmond, VA  1,260,029
> Spokane, WA  540,953
> Anchorage, AK  396,142
> Hartford, CT  1,212,381
> Honolulu, HI  953,207


Hartford and Richmond are a tier above Tulsa population wise and in overall importance (though Tulsa does hold its own against those places in terms of amenities and quality of life).  For the smaller cities, I think competition would also play a factor.  In how many of those places is Nordstrom the sole upscale department store?  Tulsa already has a lot of high-end retail, including Saks Fifth Avenue in the same shopping center.  Considering that Tulsa isn't really growing very fast it makes me skeptical.  Not to say it won't happen though.

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## Zorba

I wouldn't be shocked if Nordstrom's went into Tulsa, but my money would be replacing Sears at Woodland Hills. Utica square doesn't have any extra room, and the spaces being discussed are pretty small. Plus I think there is a lot more money, especially new money, in South Tulsa.

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## SomeGuy

If they ever open a Nordstrom in Tulsa, it should take Sears' spot in Woodland Hills imo.

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## HOT ROD

those smaller city locations (especially on the w coast) are there mainly when Nordstrom was a regional player in the Pac NW. As Nordies expanded and got more nationwide these locations were retained to retain the market but they are not major players for the company as a whole and many of them are basically Racks with commissioned sales teams (ie no to very little high end). 

BTW, I worked at Nordstrom Corporate office in downtown Seattle (Finance) for a year in 2011 while I was inbetween roles at Microsoft [yes, I've worked at all 3 of Seattle's heritage companies at some point Microsoft, Boeing, Nordstrom]  - and one of the decisions on our plate was what to do with medium sized markets without a Nordstrom presence. Ala - OKC has a Nordstrom Rack and I am an OKC expat (so put two and two together, YES - I was sure to note Oklahoma as an opportunity for the company). 

Given my knowledge, I would bet the house that if Tulsa is on the radar (which they should be) then it would be a Nordstrom Rack and not a full Nordie because as has been mentioned the push is to International now (Canada) and I do recall the early negotiations with the City of Vancouver + Caddilac Fairview (the real estate titan that owns the Pacific Centre) just getting started when I was there. No shame in getting a Rack though, it's not an outlet it's just not commissioned sales and the clothes sit on 'racks' - that's the major difference along with being smaller.

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## In_Tulsa

Nordstrom Rack has been in Tulsa for a while now. It on 71st street.

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## Swake

the first shoe has now dropped. Miss Jackson's will be closing in January after 105 years in Tulsa.

The article doesn't say it, but Helmerich and Payne own both Utica Square and Miss Jackson's. 

105-year-old upscale Tulsa retailer Miss Jackson's to close in January - Tulsa World: Local

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## BG918

I could see Crate & Barrel moving in there.  Hope Petty's can remain in that spot.

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## Plutonic Panda

> the first shoe has now dropped. Miss Jackson's will be closing in January after 105 years in Tulsa.
> 
> The article doesn't say it, but Helmerich and Payne own both Utica Square and Miss Jackson's. 
> 
> 105-year-old upscale Tulsa retailer Miss Jackson's to close in January - Tulsa World: Local


It seems others think H&M is going in there.

H&M, Five Below among the new retail concepts interested in Tulsa - Tulsa World: Real Estate

That seems to be a better fit anyways. I'd rather Nordstrom come to OKC but if they did locate in Tulsa it'd be better if they built a full sized store and went to the Woodland Hills mall and started a revamp because that mall is an embarrassment. It would be good if an upscale department store built a new add on to that mall.

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## In_Tulsa

Na

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## In_Tulsa

> It seems others think H&M is going in there.
> 
> H&M, Five Below among the new retail concepts interested in Tulsa - Tulsa World: Real Estate
> 
> That seems to be a better fit anyways. I'd rather Nordstrom come to OKC but if they did locate in Tulsa it'd be better if they built a full sized store and went to the Woodland Hills mall and started a revamp because that mall is an embarrassment. It would be good if an upscale department store built a new add on to that mall.


You must mean Tulsa Promenade. Woodland Hills mall is the premier mall in the state.

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## Plutonic Panda

> if they did locate in Tulsa it'd be better if they built a full sized store and went to the Woodland Hills mall and started a revamp because that mall is an embarrassment. It would be good if an upscale department store built a new add on to that mall.
> 
> You must mean Tulsa Promenade. Woodland Hill is the premier mall in the state.


No. I guess we have different opinions of what premier malls are. I wouldn't expect Tulsa or OKC to have a mall like the Galleria in Dallas or Northpark, but Woodland Hills seemed worse than Penn Square. Also, last time I checked, Penn Square was listed as the most luxurious and best shopping mall in the state. Now, when I think of malls, I think of Penn Square as a medium rate mall as far as high-end shopping malls go and unless it gets a huge remodel, it won't change. I wish they'd build a new high-end shopping mall somewhere, but at the same time, I don't want the other malls to die, so I think the metro needs about a million or so more people until a new high-end indoor shopping mall can be really successful. New indoor shopping malls are starting to be built again.

Have they done anything to it since two years ago?

BTW man, I'm not trying to dog on Tulsa. I used to do that a lot and it was pretty immature and I haven't done that. I even made a compilation for the city on citydata so people could see what's going on. Drove through Tulsa a couple days ago and it looked nice.

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## Plutonic Panda

Also, how is the Tulsa Promenade? I have never been in that mall.

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## Swake

> Also, how is the Tulsa Promenade? I have never been in that mall.


Promenade is very similar to Penn Square, at least in the physical buildings. Both used to be outdoor shopping centers that were enclosed in the 1980s which leads to very narrow corridors and an aged feeling, and not in a good way. The mix of stores is much better at Penn Square since it is OKC's only version of an upscale shopping center and promenade has a good deal of vacancies, but the actual buildings are similar. Promenade is hurt by Utica just being three miles away and taking all the higher end stores. Promenade is nicer than Penn in that is has all structured parking and is better integrated into the surrounding area. Promenade is in a much nicer part of town, too. The area around Penn is pretty ugly. 

41st and Yale, where Promenade is, used to have three malls. The nicer and largest of the malls was Southroad's, which was converted into a power center maybe 15 years ago. The third small mall, The Annex Mall, was demolished for strip centers. It would have been better if Promenade was torn down and Southroads remained as a mall instead. 

Woodland is nice enough, it's like two malls in one with a more expensive nicer side with Dillards and Macy's and a cheaper side with JC Penny's and Sears. Once Sears leaves then I think you will see Nordstrom's or something similar locate at Woodland and that end of the mall will improve. I really just don't think there's space at Utica for Nordstrom's.

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## Plutonic Panda

Yeah Penn Square Mall really needs a huge revamp. It's nice for what it is, but that whole area and it's a shame because it sits within a stones throws and one of the richest parts of OKC. I think Penn Square Mall could be further remodeled and made nicer, but if OKC ever desires to have a true upscale mall it will need to be built from scratch, which I think will need another 500,000-1,000,000 people in the metro for it to be successful. We already have Penn Sqaure and Quail Springs with Sooner Mall in Norman, Crossroads in South OKC, and that mall on NW 23rd which I think needs to go.

I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is that Von Maur is very interested in Tulsa and plans an expansion there so a Von Maur and a Nordstroms would do wonders for that mall. All that'd be left JC Penny's to remodel their store at the Woodland Hills and then everything else would pretty much fall into place with the smaller stores all going more upscale. The only other thing I'd like to see is structured parking added and the mall expanded or mixed-use residential built similar to how the Stonebriar Mall in Frisco is set-up. That'd be a good location for an iFly as well.

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## Zorba

> Promenade is very similar to Penn Square, at least in the physical buildings. Both used to be outdoor shopping centers that were enclosed in the 1980s which leads to very narrow corridors and an aged feeling, and not in a good way. The mix of stores is much better at Penn Square since it is OKC's only version of an upscale shopping center and promenade has a good deal of vacancies, but the actual buildings are similar. Promenade is hurt by Utica just being three miles away and taking all the higher end stores. Promenade is nicer than Penn in that is has all structured parking and is better integrated into the surrounding area. Promenade is in a much nicer part of town, too. The area around Penn is pretty ugly. 
> 
> 41st and Yale, where Promenade is, used to have three malls. The nicer and largest of the malls was Southroad's, which was converted into a power center maybe 15 years ago. The third small mall, The Annex Mall, was demolished for strip centers. It would have been better if Promenade was torn down and Southroads remained as a mall instead. 
> 
> Woodland is nice enough, it's like two malls in one with a more expensive nicer side with Dillards and Macy's and a cheaper side with JC Penny's and Sears. Once Sears leaves then I think you will see Nordstrom's or something similar locate at Woodland and that end of the mall will improve. I really just don't think there's space at Utica for Nordstrom's.


I always liked Promenade, but they never could seem to keep stores. I used to go over there all the time for the AMC and then the Hollywood Theater in Promenade, but after The Tulsa got built I stopped going over there nearly as much, and I grew out of the going to the movies twice a week to make out phase. 

I think the most likely place for a Nordstrom's to go in the state would be in the Sears location at Woodland. I have no idea how that Sears is doing, but I doubt it is doing well. If Nordstroms doesn't take it over, then I am sure Von Maur will. I really don't see either going anywhere else in Tulsa, unless they did a standalone store somewhere.

The Macy's at Woodland needs to renevate to become a real Macy's instead of a Foley's with a new name. I doubt that will happen unless a Nordstroms moves in, though.

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## PhiAlpha

> Yeah Penn Square Mall really needs a huge revamp. It's nice for what it is, but that whole area and it's a shame because it sits within a stones throws and one of the richest parts of OKC. I think Penn Square Mall could be further remodeled and made nicer, but *if OKC ever desires to have a true upscale mall it will need to be built from scratch, which I think will need another 500,000-1,000,000 people in the metro for it to be successful*. We already have Penn Sqaure and Quail Springs with Sooner Mall in Norman, Crossroads in South OKC, and that mall on NW 23rd which I think needs to go.
> 
> I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is that Von Maur is very interested in Tulsa and plans an expansion there so a Von Maur and a Nordstroms would do wonders for that mall. All that'd be left JC Penny's to remodel their store at the Woodland Hills and then everything else would pretty much fall into place with the smaller stores all going more upscale. The only other thing I'd like to see is structured parking added and the mall expanded or mixed-use residential built similar to how the Stonebriar Mall in Frisco is set-up. That'd be a good location for an iFly as well.


I don't think that is true nor is a new mall likely to be built. Penn Square is fine size-wise, it could probably use another anchor buildout, change in tenant mix, and maybe a remodel. Quality-wise, it isn't any different than Woodland Hills, just smaller.

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## bchris02

I think Penn Square is as nice as any mall in a major city. I wasn't impressed with Woodland Hills last time I was there and think Penn Square is better. Tulsa's jewel is Utica Square. What Penn Square needs is an anchor buildout as well as the mall to terminate the leases of low-end stores that already have locations within a few blocks, like Payless and GameStop. I remember hearing something about this a few years ago when they did the last remodel. They didn't revamp the northwest entrance and the reason I heard is the possibility of a new anchor there. Not sure how true that is.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I don't think that is true nor is a new mall likely to be built. Penn Square is fine size-wise, it could probably use another anchor buildout, change in tenant mix, and maybe a remodel. Quality-wise, it isn't any different than Woodland Hills, just smaller.


I agree with you on the new mall thing. I'd be surprised if one was announced within the next 5 even 10 years depending on how fast we grow. I also *don't* necessarily think one should be announced either.

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## Swake

> I think Penn Square is as nice as any mall in a major city. I wasn't impressed with Woodland Hills last time I was there and think Penn Square is better. Tulsa's jewel is Utica Square. What Penn Square needs is an anchor buildout as well as the mall to terminate the leases of low-end stores that already have locations within a few blocks, like Payless and GameStop. I remember hearing something about this a few years ago when they did the last remodel. They didn't revamp the northwest entrance and the reason I heard is the possibility of a new anchor there. Not sure how true that is.



You need to stop comparing Pen Square and Woodland. They don't fill the same market need and aren't the same kind of mall. Woodland is a huge, suburban mid-scale mall like you see in any city, and it was built as a mall so it looks much like any other mall. The similar mall in OKC is Quail Springs, not Penn Square, you are comparing the wrong center to Penn. Woodland is a lot larger than QS, but they are in the same market niche.

Penn's comparative center in Tulsa is is Utica Square.

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## Swake

> I agree with you on the new mall thing. I'd be surprised if one was announced within the next 5 even 10 years depending on how fast we grow. I also *don't* necessarily think one should be announced either.


When was the last time a new mall opened anywhere in the United States?

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## Plutonic Panda

> When was the last time a new mall opened anywhere in the United States?


There are several u/c right now. I have seen many new ones recently proposed or started but the one right off of the top of my head is new one in Miami. 

Mega-mall project in Northwest Miami-Dade wins state approval for land deal | Miami Herald

Now that article is a little old, but it gives you an idea of what the mall is. I didn't want to spend the time going to Skyscraper page, but I will do it later tonight. 

This discussion about a new mall build is pointless and stupid for OKC as I have already said many times before. It is likely not happening in the 5-10 years and SHOULD NOT as I think it would fail and cause over-saturation which I think OKC is barely getting to the point where it can successfully support the 4 malls it has now in the metro. The only reason I brought it up was to point out the fact that I don't think Penn Square will ever foot the bill for an upscale mall. 

I'm not trying to come off as snobby, but Penn Square is not that nice of a mall. Neither is Woodland Hills. I can't speak for The Promenade because I have never been there.

As for Woodland Hills to Penn Square, it is absolutely comparable to Penn Square because comparing Penn Square to Utica is invalid, at least in my opinion. I don't compare an open shopping center to an enclosed mall because I'm sure there are even retailers that prefer one to the other.

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## bchris02

> Penn's comparative center in Tulsa is is Utica Square.


I disagree.  Utica Square is a step above Penn Square.  Penn Square is a notch above Woodland Hills and Quail Springs.

OKC's answer to Utica Sqaure will be the Glimcher development at Classen Curve once it finally happens.

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## Thomas Vu

Isn't utica square mostly outdoor?  No entry way from one store to the other without going outside?  I haven't been to Tulsa in years, mind you.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Isn't utica square mostly outdoor?  No entry way from one store to the other without going outside?  I haven't been to Tulsa in years, mind you.


Unless I have never seen it, no. It's a shopping center. A very nice one.

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## Swake

Utica is not a mall. It's what all these lifestyle centers are trying to copy.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Utica is not a mall. It's what all these lifestyle centers are trying to copy.


Copy? Utica Square was not the first lifestyle center in the U.S. and to call Utica Square a lifestyle center is a bit of a stretch.

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## Zorba

> Isn't utica square mostly outdoor?  No entry way from one store to the other without going outside?  I haven't been to Tulsa in years, mind you.


Yes, Utica is all outdoors. It is a nice place, but as far as shopping goes, it is no where as good as some people on here would lead you to believe. It is great for walking around though.

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## Zorba

> When was the last time a new mall opened anywhere in the United States?


There are two in DFW built in 2000 and 2001.

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## Swake

> There are two in DFW built in 2000 and 2001.



That was 15 years ago. The only mall I am aware of that's being built is that ugly thing by the Meadowlands that's been "under construction" for more than a decade. 

Any other enclosed malls actually under construction now or completed since the 2008 crash? Anywhere?

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## Thomas Vu

> Unless I have never seen it, no. It's a shopping center. A very nice one.






> Yes, Utica is all outdoors. It is a nice place, but as far as shopping goes, it is no where as good as some people on here would lead you to believe. It is great for walking around though.


Glad I'm not _completely_ crazy.

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## Swake

And now Utica Square has now asked Petty's Fine Foods to leave, the store closes next month. The owner is considering a new location but nothing is planned yet. H&P, who owns Utica, wants to "repurpose" the building that Petty's and Miss Jackson's were in. Petty's has been in Utica Square since 1972. 

I highly doubt this is actually for a Nordstroms, but the space is now way too large for H&M, which was the latest idea floating around. Fresh Market is rumored to want to build a new store at Utica Square, but on a current parking lot, not in this space.

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## Plutonic Panda

I hope it is a Nordstrom. That would be good for the area although I would prefer to see Nordstrom go to Woodland Hills if they were to enter the Tulsa market.

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## Swake

> I hope it is a Nordstrom. That would be good for the area although I would prefer to see Nordstrom go to Woodland Hills if they were to enter the Tulsa market.


Sears can't last forever. We will see who take their space.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

> I hope it is a Nordstrom. That would be good for the area although I would prefer to see Nordstrom go to Woodland Hills if they were to enter the Tulsa market.


Why would you prefer it in woodland hills?

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## Plutonic Panda

> Why would you prefer it in woodland hills?


That malls needs a rehab and this would help the mall. 

Some of these things are just certain taste for certain cities. I think Utica Square is doing pretty good. It could use some mid-high rise residential and perhaps some mass transit such as a street connection to downtown Tulsa, but I at the moment give it an H&M, Container Store, and World Market and it will continue to do well.

Woodland Hills seems to be struggling or getting close. A Nordstrom would really help Woodland Hills. If the old Sears space went into a Von Maur and a Nordstrom build was added to the mall, I would really enjoy seeing that.

I think Utica Square should stick to smaller stores. I would like to see an Louis Vuitton or Gucci store go there as opposed to Woodland Hills.

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## Swake

> That malls needs a rehab and this would help the mall. 
> 
> Some of these things are just certain taste for certain cities. I think Utica Square is doing pretty good. It could use some mid-high rise residential and perhaps some mass transit such as a street connection to downtown Tulsa, but I at the moment give it an H&M, Container Store, and World Market and it will continue to do well.
> 
> Woodland Hills seems to be struggling or getting close. A Nordstrom would really help Woodland Hills. If the old Sears space went into a Von Maur and a Nordstrom build was added to the mall, I would really enjoy seeing that.
> 
> I think Utica Square should stick to smaller stores. I would like to see an Louis Vuitton or Gucci store go there as opposed to Woodland Hills.


Woodland is undergoing a renovation right now and I don't think there's any empty space there at all.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Woodland is undergoing a renovation right now and I don't think there's any empty space there at all.


Glad they are doing renovations however they need some new tenants.

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## Zorba

> That malls needs a rehab and this would help the mall. 
> 
> Some of these things are just certain taste for certain cities. I think Utica Square is doing pretty good. It could use some mid-high rise residential and perhaps some mass transit such as a street connection to downtown Tulsa, but I at the moment give it an H&M, Container Store, and World Market and it will continue to do well.
> 
> Woodland Hills seems to be struggling or getting close. A Nordstrom would really help Woodland Hills. If the old Sears space went into a Von Maur and a Nordstrom build was added to the mall, I would really enjoy seeing that.
> 
> I think Utica Square should stick to smaller stores. I would like to see an Louis Vuitton or Gucci store go there as opposed to Woodland Hills.


The one mid-high rise condo complex near Utica Square was faught tooth and nail by those that lived in the area. Although that was quite a while ago, I doubt they'd welcome it now. 

I don't think Woodland needs the help, but I think Nordstrom's would do substantially better at Woodland than Utica Square. I think that Sears is on its last legs. I was there on Saturday and it didn't look like they had restocked at all since Christmas.

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## Swake

The building at Utica Square that housed Miss Jackson's and Petty's is slated for demolition to make way for a new building. Still no word on what will be in the new building. 

Miss Jackson's, Petty's at Utica Square slated for demolition within 60 days - Tulsa World: Retail

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## KayneMo

> I disagree.  Utica Square is a step above Penn Square.  Penn Square is a notch above Woodland Hills and Quail Springs.
> 
> OKC's answer to Utica Sqaure will be the Glimcher development at Classen Curve once it finally happens.


I feel like what Classen Curve and The Triangle is right now _is_ the "answer". The Glimcher addition will make it much better.

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## Eric

Utica could really change it up by adding a building with residential. They could sell it in a heart beat and for  a huge premium as well. It would really distinguish that area from anything else in the state.

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## Swake

I don't disagree, but there's already a 17 story condo building on the east side of Utica and a 10 story condo building on the south side. 

Personally, I think it should be a hotel tower above retail.

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## bchris02

> I feel like what Classen Curve and The Triangle is right now _is_ the "answer". The Glimcher addition will make it much better.


I disagree. If the Glimcher development happens though, it will be.

Oklahoma City really needs an upscale shopping district. Right now, Utica Square is the premier shopping center in the state but I think Glimcher (which includes Classen Curve and Nichols Hills Plaza) could be much better if developed to potential. Hopefully the NIMBY opposition fails and they are able to move forward with it.

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## Mel

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/nordst...214646565.html

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## Swake

The building that housed Miss Jackson's and Petty's is down.



It was just November that Utica Square said they had no plans to push out Miss Jackson's or Petty's and now both are gone along with the building they were in. For "no plans" in November they are moving very fast. Utica now says they are close to announcing plans for a new building.




> We are pleased to announce the redevelopment of a cornerstone location in Utica Square. We are finalizing our design for a new building and will release further details in a timely fashion, said Jessica Barr, property manager at Utica Square in a statement earlier this month.
> In an interview with the World earlier this month, Barr said that, following demolition, construction would not begin on the new building until we sign leases.
> She didnt offer a timeline for when the building will be built, how many tenants it would accommodate, or how close it would be in size to the current 50,000-square-foot building.
> It (the building) had just outlived its useful life, Barr said. Its an exciting time for Utica Square.


Former Miss Jackson's, Petty's building at Utica Square demolished - Tulsa World: Local

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## Pete

Perhaps Container Store or Crate & Barrel?

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## Swake

> Perhaps Container Store or Crate & Barrel?


My real guess would be that you are correct and it's both. And there's still the real rumor out there that Fresh Market will build on a current parking area in the back corner of Utica.

It would be really nice if it was REI and we end the idea of a strip mall in middle of Riverparks.

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## Pete

That area wouldn't be big enough for both.

I know both have been looking in OKC, that's why I mentioned them.

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## KayneMo

> I disagree. If the Glimcher development happens though, it will be.
> 
> Oklahoma City really needs an upscale shopping district. Right now, Utica Square is the premier shopping center in the state but I think Glimcher (which includes Classen Curve and Nichols Hills Plaza) could be much better if developed to potential. Hopefully the NIMBY opposition fails and they are able to move forward with it.


I don't agree with that, Penn Square tops Utica Square. It has most of the stores that Utica Square has and has a ton that Utica Square doesn't, and several of those that aren't at Penn Square are right there at Classen Curve.

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## Eric

> I don't agree with that, Penn Square tops Utica Square. It has most of the stores that Utica Square has and has a ton that Utica Square doesn't, and several of those that aren't at Penn Square are right there at Classen Curve.


Utica Square isn't going to come out on top when you look at quantity. It is the quality/mix of stores that really set it apart. And the atmosphere.  It's not "in the grid" but it still functions like it as you often have to cross the street and such.

It also does have some truly unique stores for the state. Saks most notably. Some of the higher end stores that have been in Utica for some time are now starting to find there way into the malls now too, making it seem less distinguished.

In response to the Penn Square comparison all I will say is this. Would you rather grab your Starbucks here:

Utica Square - Starbucks.JPG

or here?

Penn Square Mall - Starbucks.JPG

This is why it is often considered the premier shopping area in the state. Glimcher may surpass it. Classen Curve will never. It will come down to management in my opinion. I think the layout of Glimcher will allow it to compete directly. But there is much more to it than that. The Helmerich family is pretty committed to making Utica a truly unique place, and to date have done a pretty phenomenal job. I can't think of anything that has been really considered a mis-step prior to the non-renewal of a couple of leases lately, in order to tear down the building. However, I will say that department stores are a dying bread and the grocery store always seemed a bit out of place. In the end I believe whatever replaces them will likely be an improvement, or at least compliment the existing lineup better.

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