# Civic Matters > Ask Anything About OKC >  Why is it so hard to get a tradesman to do anything?

## TheTravellers

Maybe it's this way everywhere, but handymen/women and tradesmen/women suck at getting back to me here (if they even answer you in the first place).  First time we've owned a house, so never had to deal with it before (our landlords were all pretty responsive, we've been lucky), is this just the way it is?

Had to call about 6 plumbers before one would even answer me, and then he blew me off after the first time I used him (finally found a good one, and he does HVAC too)

Can't get a mason after calling a few (voicemail on one, another didn't reply, another didn't answer).

Can't find a master gardener despite asking for recommendations multiple places.

Had to call multiple handymen before I got one (and he was substandard) to replace some doors/locks.

Multiple fence companies, same stories.

Appliance repair, same stories.

Haven't needed an electrician yet, just used the one our home warranty company assigned, and they kinda sucked, so not looking forward to our next electrical problem (there will be a next time, our house is 69 years old).

Are they busy enough so they don't need new customers?  Do they not care?  Frustrating as all hell trying to get things fixed here, do I just need to randomly pick someone off Angie's (or whoever's) List and hope?

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## BBatesokc

When you find a good service provider, you hoard them like a secret.

We've run into this with tree trimmers, companies that spray yards, and handymen. Either the companies are so small they have zero organization and will dump a small job for a larger without notice - or - they are one man shows and when they are not working they are getting drunk or high.

We finally found excellent electrician, plumber and sprinkler service providers. The rest are all hit and miss.

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## Pete

It's a symptom of a very strong economy.

Not only are they busy, but the good ones are tied up by general contractors who can guarantee them big, continuous jobs.


It was even worse when I bought my home in California.  I ended up doing a lot of work myself for this very reason.

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## bombermwc

Pete - yup. They are that way because they can be. They can pick and choose who to call back based on what they WANT to do today. If you want a different approach, you would need to use a larger company that employs the tradesmen. For example, rather than calling an individual plumber, call Brandons. 

They're not usually the cheaper option, but Home Depot and Lowe's do have agreements with local contractors for a lot of work. You pay the overhead of going through the corporation and it's not really a guarantee that the work/person will be awesome, but you do get some "warranty" type comfort from going through the larger company if something goes wrong.

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## gopokes88

The ones I employ are very very very busy. 

There’s not a bunch of young people coming into the trades either. That amazon project kept a lot of people busy for a long time and it’s one of about 10 going on.

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## PaddyShack

Looks like I need to quit my desk job and become a tradesman. I have been doing all of the work myself, home, auto, and yard for years. Might as well go get the proper certifications and start picking up everybody that is getting left behind.

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## jerrywall

Yup, run into this myself.  I used to have a list of folks I used for various things. They've all moved away or retired, or in the case of my heat and air, got bought out by evil corp.  I really miss my appliance guy.  He could work on anything, and wouldn't have me waste my money if it wasn't worth repairing.

I did find a new tree/plant/landscape guy.  Older retired gentleman, who takes on very, very, few clients (no more than one a day).  I keep his info close to my vest.

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## Pete

> There’s not a bunch of young people coming into the trades either.


This is very true.

It's going to create a big problem down the line.

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## Richard at Remax

You also have to realize that the buying/selling season is in full force. Tons of homes are trading hands, which comes with repairing items from inspections.

That being said, here are some solid companies I always recommend to people:

Electric: Innovative Electric
Plumbing: Aces Three
Pests: A+ or Crew's Pest Control
Fences: Premier 
Appliance repair: Metro Appliance Service of OKC

I too have had older tradesmen retire and I have been scrambling some. Anyone have any brick mason contact for mainly tuckpointing? Or someone who lays wood floor?  :Smile:

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## jerrywall

I will say, and I know this is very anecdotal, that when I went to my son's graduation from the Francis Tuttle pre-engineering academy earlier this month, I noticed a fairly decently sized group of young graduates in welding and heat and air.  I know Edmond schools, at the least, seemed to really push the votechs and the trade careers a lot more with my kids, than they did when I went to school.

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## PaddyShack

My wife and I are planning on pushing our son and hopefully the next couple of kids to be in the trades rather than going down the white-collar path.

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## SoonerDave

> Maybe it's this way everywhere, but handymen/women and tradesmen/women suck at getting back to me here (if they even answer you in the first place).  First time we've owned a house, so never had to deal with it before (our landlords were all pretty responsive, we've been lucky), is this just the way it is?
> 
> Had to call about 6 plumbers before one would even answer me, and then he blew me off after the first time I used him (finally found a good one, and he does HVAC too)
> 
> Can't get a mason after calling a few (voicemail on one, another didn't reply, another didn't answer).
> 
> Can't find a master gardener despite asking for recommendations multiple places.
> 
> Had to call multiple handymen before I got one (and he was substandard) to replace some doors/locks.
> ...


I think there are lots of reasons. 

First, a *lot* of people are becoming DIY types. Strange as it may sound, YouTube and the Internet have a done a tremendous job of closing the "information gap" in the "skilled trades" area, giving average people the information and resources on how to do some simple things on their own, and for drastically less money. I'm not saying the *quality* or *skill* are always there, but the fact that there are increasing DIY'ers is just a fact of life. I'm one of them, and I'll fight to my last drop to do something myself until I just realize I can't rationalize not letting a "pro" do it. 

How does that translate into no callbacks or follow-through? There's not enough one-at-a-time work to sustain it, or the individual contractors gravitate toward larger employers that can offer sustained work. That means the traditional handyman role is getting tougher and tougher to find. 

Second, the market for appliance repair - particularly smaller appliances - is nearly vanishing. The cost of repairing most mid-range appliances is so high even after only a few years use that it doesn't make sense to repair; people just replace. You put even two or three labor hours, plus a service call, plus parts onto a repair, and you've probably hit a good percentage of a whole new *whatever*. If people stop repairing, the market for repairstaff gets smaller - and if you look at my prior point about DIYers, you'll find a lot of the local parts places that are still around are starting to *cater* to the DIYers. See Wade's Appliance in Moore - they're a great parts place, and sometimes they'll give you hints on how to repair things yourself or will tell you straight up if something is even worth repairing. 

Another factor is parts. Manufacturers are making fewer and fewer repair parts for their offerings. I kept an older fridge going for years, needed an temperature control valve, and guess what - they didn't exist. *No* suppliers. Not on the 'net, not local, nowhere. Even a few parts houses I called said the parts weren't available from even their last-gasp suppliers. Same held true on a more recent oven failure. 

The point is there's a whole constellation of factors in play that are making it harder and harder to find good tradespeople. And I don't think that trend is going to change anytime soon.

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## Richard at Remax

> I think there are lots of reasons. 
> 
> First, a *lot* of people are becoming DIY types. Strange as it may sound, YouTube and the Internet have a done a tremendous job of closing the "information gap" in the "skilled trades" area, giving average people the information and resources on how to do some simple things on their own, and for drastically less money. I'm not saying the *quality* or *skill* are always there, but the fact that there are increasing DIY'ers is just a fact of life. I'm one of them, and I'll fight to my last drop to do something myself until I just realize I can't rationalize not letting a "pro" do it. 
> 
> How does that translate into no callbacks or follow-through? There's not enough one-at-a-time work to sustain it, or the individual contractors gravitate toward larger employers that can offer sustained work. That means the traditional handyman role is getting tougher and tougher to find. 
> 
> *Second, the market for appliance repair - particularly smaller appliances - is nearly vanishing. The cost of repairing most mid-range appliances is so high even after only a few years use that it doesn't make sense to repair; people just replace. You put even two or three labor hours, plus a service call, plus parts onto a repair, and you've probably hit a good percentage of a whole new *whatever*. If people stop repairing, the market for repairstaff gets smaller - and if you look at my prior point about DIYers, you'll find a lot of the local parts places that are still around are starting to *cater* to the DIYers. See Wade's Appliance in Moore - they're a great parts place, and sometimes they'll give you hints on how to repair things yourself or will tell you straight up if something is even worth repairing.* 
> 
> Another factor is parts. Manufacturers are making fewer and fewer repair parts for their offerings. I kept an older fridge going for years, needed an temperature control valve, and guess what - they didn't exist. *No* suppliers. Not on the 'net, not local, nowhere. Even a few parts houses I called said the parts weren't available from even their last-gasp suppliers. Same held true on a more recent oven failure. 
> ...


I'm glad you brought this up. I own and manage 5 of my own rentals, and when it comes to older appliances I have found the trade off is to buy new vs fixing. Part prices will make you not sleep at night.

That being said, I have used Sears the past few years for all my new appliances. They have transitioned to more of an online company, with shell stores still out there. I have found their prices to be among the best, and usually get free delivery.

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## TheTravellers

Thanks for the replies.  

I try to do things by myself when I can, I also have a home warranty for everything inside the house that breaks, so I have to use whoever they choose to come out.  But if it's not actually broken and just needs work, I have to find someone - water heater wasn't broken, but was so gunked up and old I didn't want to wait until it broke because with the home warranty, I'd report it, they'd assign it to someone, they'd get back to me a day later, then schedule something for who knows how far in the future (usually a few days), then it'd take them 2 days to fix it (one to come out and "diagnose", then they'd come back later to do the work), and we'd be without hot water all that time, so I just bit the bullet and got a new one with my bonus this year.  I can't do a water heater by myself, so I need a plumber.  I don't have the knowledge to "fix" my yard, so once I get that knowledge, I can do the work myself, but first I have to find someone with the knowledge.  

So for those that use companies with employees, how do you know that they're that kind of company?  I went to Fox Brick's site and it looks like a place that isn't a one-man shop, but apparently it is (or pretty close).  And why can't these people just say "can't do it right now, sorry"?  I don't take on projects at my workplace if I don't have time to do them, why do they appear to be taking new customers if they aren't?  It just engenders pissed-off-ness and no return calls and bad reviews.

And if anybody asks me for a recommendation for a tradesman and I know one, I give it to them, it's on the tradesman to decline/accept new customers, IMO.  I just don't understand this way of thinking, but then again, I'm an IT guy, not a tradesman, so maybe this is just the way they work.

So off to Angie's List I go to find a chimney repair place...

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## chuck5815

i've had decent luck on thumbtack. found a painter, electrician, and lawn mowing service that have all done excellent work.

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## TheTravellers

> You also have to realize that the buying/selling season is in full force. Tons of homes are trading hands, which comes with repairing items from inspections.
> 
> That being said, here are some solid companies I always recommend to people:
> 
> Electric: Innovative Electric
> Plumbing: Aces Three
> Pests: A+ or Crew's Pest Control
> Fences: Premier 
> Appliance repair: Metro Appliance Service of OKC
> ...


Thanks for that list, I've got a plumber, pest control co., fence co., and our appliances are covered by the home warranty (got a $3500 Kitchen-Aid stove out of them last year, so I'm sticking with the home warranty for a few more years, I've gotten way more than my money's worth so far), except washer/dryer which I'll buy new when they die, but I'll eventually need an electrician.

If you find a mason that's actually accepting new work, let me know, please.  :Smile:   Can't help on a flooring guy though, ours are in great shape, so haven't needed one (and hopefully won't ever), sorry.

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## Pete

^

Regarding Angie's List, I have not had good experiences.

I called a couple of highly recommended deck companies and the bids were incredibly high.  I found someone through a realtor friend who was excellent and half the price.

Same was true with a small concrete job.


I'm curious about what think about AL.

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## TheTravellers

> i've had decent luck on thumbtack. found a painter, electrician, and lawn mowing service that have all done excellent work.


Oh yeah, forgot about them, been seeing their commercials, I'll give them a shot, thanks.

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## BoulderSooner

> ^
> 
> Regarding Angie's List, I have not had good experiences.
> 
> I called a couple of highly recommended deck companies and the bids were incredibly high.  I found someone through a realtor friend who was excellent and half the price.
> 
> Same was true with a small concrete job.
> 
> 
> I'm curious about what think about AL.


it is crazy to me how different quotes can be on the same job  with 2 very reputible companies

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## mkjeeves

There is a shortage of building trade workers that is going to get a lot worse as the current aging work force retires. Likewise there is a push to get people in the building trades but most young people do not want physical blue collar jobs.  One often asked question to illustrate the stigma, Would you want your daughter to be a plumber? 

The biggest difficulty with having a selection of trade repair and small job service people or companies to chose from, is it is not an easy business by any stretch.  The economics are most tradesmen make their living in bulk wholesale, building houses or buildings, working on relatively larger projects. (Many of which have crushing deadlines and deadline penalties which doesn't pair well with home owners having it your way on your time schedule.) By and large, the construction industry is who trains these people too.

Working for individuals is retail. It's a whole different ballgame. Some companies try to do both, with the net result being the wholesale part of the company subsidizes the service part of the company, and even though management usually doesn't have a full grasp how much truth there is in that, they have a gut feeling service is not what is making their business work, thus, it always plays second fiddle.

The same thing happens with smaller or single man companies, either service gets done as filler work, or the tradesman ends up working very long hours to make up for the inefficiencies inherent in a retail trade.

The third scenario are the companies and individuals who figure out how to run a viable retail trade business on its own.  It takes a different mind set and skill set of both employee and manager and it comes with charging the consumer accordingly. Those are the companies you see advertise all the time in a variety of media for home services. They are usually also known for charging a lot of money. Fair price? Some think so, others don't.

(Inefficiency in retail...A good, well managed service tradesman *might* average 3-4 hours of actual productive work in an 8 hour day, day in and day out, between travel, talking to customers, training, and all the things that go into being able to service that clientele.  Additionally, on average, it takes one office person for each field employee in a typical retail trade service company. In a small company, that one office person is usually the unpaid tradesman's spouse or the tradesman himself after his other day is done. Those numbers are no where near the same for construction.)

There are a very few that manage to blur a few of those lines, good service, responsiveness, not tremendously expensive. That usually happens at the expense of their bottom line, ability to grow or other compromises. Those are the ones we all seem to want.

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## stile99

Easy answer, call someone who wants the work. Without naming names, my parents were the first steady customers of a new heating and air business where the owners used to live down the street. The business grew to the point where they would call with A/C out on Thursday and get told see you Tuesday...maybe. They would call to schedule maintenance and never get a return call. I finally convinced them loyalty is great only if you get it in return. Last time they pulled this, I called, and when they said Tuesday at the earliest, I told them no thank you, it will be done by then and had someone there an hour later. 

Bottom line, someone wants the work. If that someone is not Person A, Person B is waiting for your call. Call Person B. Or unfortunately as you note, it might be Person C, D, or E.  Eventually take the hint and stop calling Person A in the first place.

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## Richard at Remax

I want to add don't use Air Comfort Solutions. For anything. Have too many clients get hosed and had to learn the hard way. AVOID!

Travellers, congrats with the home warranty. My experience with buyers is that they usually aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Glad someone broke the mold.

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## TheTravellers

> Easy answer, call someone who wants the work. Without naming names, my parents were the first steady customers of a new heating and air business where the owners used to live down the street. The business grew to the point where they would call with A/C out on Thursday and get told see you Tuesday...maybe. They would call to schedule maintenance and never get a return call. I finally convinced them loyalty is great only if you get it in return. Last time they pulled this, I called, and when they said Tuesday at the earliest, I told them no thank you, it will be done by then and had someone there an hour later. 
> 
> Bottom line, someone wants the work. If that someone is not Person A, Person B is waiting for your call. Call Person B. Or unfortunately as you note, it might be Person C, D, or E.  Eventually take the hint and stop calling Person A in the first place.


Yep, I pretty much give people one chance now, and if they don't call back or come out, I'm done.  Just gets tiring, and if your tree is dying by the day, or your A/C's out, or your pipes break, or ......, it's insane to have to call someone, wait a day to figure out they don't care, then lather/rinse/repeat just to get your basic necessities running again.

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## gopokes88

> This is very true.
> 
> It's going to create a big problem down the line.


The tide does seem to be turning against higher ed a little bit. Being a tradesmen is more valuable than a soft college degree. 

We’re finding success with very young millennials/ gen z, and we can find young gen Xers. 

It’s that person born 1980-1990 (generally) where there’s a massive gap.

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## turnpup

I started to reply last night but had to attend to other things. Good and very accurate responses from all! 

It IS hard to find reliable, skilled and available trades people for various projects. We have a dear family friend of 25 years who does our contracting when we need it. He's hard to come by, however, even for us. He works alone (by choice), and only allows a handful of people to use his services. I can't tell you how many people I know have asked if he'll work for them, but he declines. He's simply too busy already.

As to the emerging lack of skilled workers in the trades, this is something I've recently seen addressed (among other places) on This Old House. A year or two ago they began an apprenticeship-type program with young adults to encourage more of them to view skilled trades as a viable career option. Hopefully it'll catch on.

In my field of work, I deal with career tech centers and have also seen a recent uptick in, for example, their welding programs. These are very good careers, often paying upwards of $75,000 within the first few years out of school. With no college debt! 

Do I want my daughter to become a plumber? Theoretically perhaps not, but when she is old enough, if that's what she wants, is passionate about, and if as a plumber she would be a fulfilled, happy, productive adult who can earn a good living, then hell yes! Hopefully the negative stigma someone mentioned upthread will go away. We need these types of skilled trades programs, and they're very beneficial to us all.

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## BBatesokc

My son tried the traditional college route at UCO for a year and it just wasn't for him. He enrolled in welding school in Tulsa and he's making about $80K/annually now, only a few years out, building wind towers. He likes knowing he could move just about anywhere and get good paying work with benefits.

We've been Angie's List members for years. Every time we cancel we get lured back with a low membership rate. Honestly, I don't know how much we get for our membership. I've called a couple of companies, but it seems we always settle on someone who came recommended from a friend or the NextDoor app, etc.

A for Home Warranties. I think they are great in some situations. When we bought out home we got one. It was a 1964 house and we had no idea how well it had or had not been maintained. The first year the warrant way more than paid for itself; new water heater, leaking plumbing, electrical panel was shot, toilets that needed new parts, etc. We pretty much got everything fixed in the first year so we didn't renew.

Neighbor used their's so much that the warranty company WOULDN'T renew them! Also when I've sold properties by owner, I've always included a home warranty to put the buyer's mind at ease. I'd buy one again in a heart beat if I was buying an older home.

I prefer smaller service providers where the owner is often the one making the call or at least follows up personally. Our electrician is Richard Turko with HIS Electric. Really great owner operator who has done everything from light switches to having our OG&E overhead lines buried and a new electrical circuit box installed for our heavy outside needs. He also donates a lot of time to my favorite non-profit NBI. As for a plumber, we really like Steve Olson. Does what he says he's gonna do and for a very fair price. He came over to do a list of things my wife wanted done while I was bedridden in my cancer treatment and he refused to charge us for the services performed. Great work ethic and moral character. For our sprinklers we use Ted. We found him on Craigslist. Older guy whose has been doing this forever. He has shown up on a Sunday with little notice to fix heads that have been run over and even the time I severed the main line and he didn't want us to be without water for the day. It's people like those three I really love to do business with.

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## Pete

Not to bag on 'younger generations' but it seems many younger people don't want to work with their hands.

And at least part of this comes from that fact that teenagers don't ever do that sort of work in the first place.

I cut grass, did painting, worked as a maintenance man at a motel...  All while in high school.

You don't even see high school kids working in food service these days, and that used to be the norm.  I went to a school in the 70's that was middle and upper-middle class and virtually everyone I knew there worked a parttime job, and the large majority in restaurants of some type.


This is what many don't understand about immigration.  There are tons of jobs that Americans just won't do anymore.

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## TheTravellers

Great post, turnpup!  I'm an IT guy, but have always liked to work with my hands, just got into IT in college (junior year, co-op education program with TAFB) and went down that fork of the career path.  Have wished over the years many times that I would've gotten into the trades, as there are always jobs for tradespeople, not always the case for a UNIX administrator.  :Smile:  It is a shame the trades have a negative stigma, more people should fully respect what it takes to get the training and then do the hard work that some of them do, it's just as valuable as moving bits around by waggling fingers on a keyboard.  And as you mentioned, some folks in the trades can make as much or more as a very skilled/experienced white-collar job, easily, so yeah, if somebody likes the trades, they should go that way, we need more, more, more...  And your guy does the right thing - declining instead of just ghosting people.

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## Richard at Remax

FACT Pete

BIG difference between older buyers and younger buyers when it comes to post inspection TRR (treatments, repairs, and replacements).

Younger buyers want and ask for EVERYTHING to be fixed. They want everything to be done before they move in, with no disregard that the house was priced for those repairs in the first place. With the repair cap gone in our contracts this has let to some real tedious situations. I've sent over repair lists to other realtors and had to apologize in advance. Older buyers just want some repair money and go down there road (I'm 35 and this was my route when I bought my own homes home and rentals). I guess I just trust my own people to do the work rather then the seller rushing to have anyone do it just to get it done before closing and it might not be done right.

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## jerrywall

> Not to bag on 'younger generations' but it seems many younger people don't want to work with their hands.
> 
> And at least part of this comes from that fact that teenagers don't ever do that sort of work in the first place.
> 
> I cut grass, did painting, worked as a maintenance man at a motel...  All while in high school.
> 
> You don't even see high school kids working in food service these days, and that used to be the norm.  I went to a school in the 70's that was middle and upper-middle class and virtually everyone I knew there worked a parttime job, and the large majority in restaurants of some type.
> 
> 
> This is what many don't understand about immigration.  There are tons of jobs that Americans just won't do anymore.


Don't know if this is everywhere, but it's not necessarily the fault of the high school kids that they're not working these jobs.  My youngest has spent the last year or so applying at fast food places, grocery stores, etc.  No call backs, no interviews, nothing.  I thought it might have been something he was doing wrong on the applications, but I checked over them myself to make sure, and they just don't seem interested.  He finally gave up, started tutoring, and will be doing stuff through the college next year.

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## Pete

^

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for younger people no longer working in hands-on jobs, but I strongly believe their lack of exposure to the same is tied into them not wanting to work with their hands for a living.

You usually become adept and interested in things by being exposed to them at a young age, and for whatever reason that just doesn't happen much anymore.

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## TheTravellers

> ^
> 
> I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for younger people no longer working in hands-on jobs, but I strongly believe their lack of exposure to the same is tied into them not wanting to work with their hands for a living.
> 
> You usually become adept and interested in things by being exposed to them at a young age, and for whatever reason that just doesn't happen much anymore.


Bingo.  I worked with my dad when he built a family room addition onto our house way back in the 70s, was probably 10 or so, did all kinds of things on that job, and yes, got me into doing as much as I could construction-wise (not so much electrical or plumbing) for the rest of my life.

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## Pete

A big part of this cycle (which now seems to be largely broken) is directly related to our absurdly high standard of living.

Few people even cut their own grass anymore, so certainly kids don't grow up pushing a mower, let alone painting the house or helping dad while he cranked out all types of household projects.

I still cut my own grass...  I don't fault those who don't but the mentality has changed from, "Don't pay anyone to do something you can do yourself" to "Why do anything you can pay someone else to do?"

And that's because people can afford to pay someone else, where for the longest time you either did the work yourself or it didn't get done.

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## SoonerDave

> Don't know if this is everywhere, but it's not necessarily the fault of the high school kids that they're not working these jobs.  My youngest has spent the last year or so applying at fast food places, grocery stores, etc.  No call backs, no interviews, nothing.  I thought it might have been something he was doing wrong on the applications, but I checked over them myself to make sure, and they just don't seem interested.  He finally gave up, started tutoring, and will be doing stuff through the college next year.


I can echo that sentiment for my own son back when he was coming out of high school and into his early college years. He went out seemingly days at a time filling out applications at all the "Now Hiring" places; grocery stores, dept stores, you name it, and he *never* heard back, not a decline, no "no thanks," no interview, nothing. Nothing. How did he finally land a job? By going to a job fair at OCCC one day and the manager of a store that was getting ready to open needed to staff up, and he hired him on the spot. He worked there off and on for about three or four years. But what if he hadn't happened to stumble onto that job fair??

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## gopokes88

> Not to bag on 'younger generations' but it seems many younger people don't want to work with their hands.
> 
> And at least part of this comes from that fact that teenagers don't ever do that sort of work in the first place.
> 
> I cut grass, did painting, worked as a maintenance man at a motel...  All while in high school.
> 
> You don't even see high school kids working in food service these days, and that used to be the norm.  I went to a school in the 70's that was middle and upper-middle class and virtually everyone I knew there worked a parttime job, and the large majority in restaurants of some type.
> 
> 
> This is what many don't understand about immigration.  There are tons of jobs that Americans just won't do anymore.


The thing with immigration is the labor supply works on the same laws of supply and demand like everything else does. 

Food is cheap because of immigrants, building is cheaper because of immigrants, yard work is cheap because of immigrants. 

However, if the supply of immigrants gets constricted or cut off, wages in those jobs will rise until they get filled. Employers will take more chances on people with checkered pasts because theres no one else.

Americans dont want those jobs....at those wages. Wages go up and its a different

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## MadMonk

I have the same problem with swimming pool related things.  It's like pulling teeth to get someone to come out to do anything less than a major job.  I had a in-ground liner to replace and in March I called six different pool people/shops (some well-known, some referrals from friends).  Only three showed up and only two of those actually got back with me with a quote.  The guy that we chose said he does a lot of liner replacements for the larger shops because they make more money from doing new installs and pass on liner replacements.  Mine was his 8th liner replaced since February and he had a growing list.

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## SoonerDave

> I want to add don't use Air Comfort Solutions. For anything. Have too many clients get hosed and had to learn the hard way. AVOID!
> 
> Travellers, congrats with the home warranty. My experience with buyers is that they usually aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Glad someone broke the mold.


I'll second both of these.  I've heard *nothing* good about ACS. And, despite a few success stories here and there, the overwhelming feedback I observe on "home warranties" is that they have staggering exceptions, deductibles, and exclusions. In that vein, they're a nice "feel good" thing to sell along with a property, but as a buyer, caveat emptor. Yeah, you may be the one who cashes in and outstrips the warranty, but I think there's a much greater chance you'll never get back what you put in. That's one of those things that has to be up to the individual and the circumstance and the warranty company. I could never in good conscience recommend them to anyone. If you buy one, you have to do so with your eyes wide open.

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## Pete

> Americans don’t want those jobs....at those wages. Wages go up and it’s a different


1) Long before immigration became a hot-button, the food service industry was having a terrible time with staffing.  I did consulting projects in that industry in the 90's and it bascially was causing many chains to stall expansion due directly to this issue.  (And consider the explosion in this industry of late.)

2) With much higher wages come much higher prices, which is the most important part of this equation.

3) Americans want things cheap, and don't really care how that happens.  Which is why Walmart is by far the biggest retailer, paying their employees poorly and buying almost everything from China.


And all this is related to a meteoric increase in quality of life for Americans in just 1 or 2 generations.  Which, in turn, a big part of why young people don't want to work with their hands.

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## TheTravellers

> I want to add don't use Air Comfort Solutions. For anything. Have too many clients get hosed and had to learn the hard way. AVOID!
> 
> Travellers, congrats with the home warranty. My experience with buyers is that they usually aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Glad someone broke the mold.


Ha, yeah, our realtor just included it and said "Don't argue, you'll thank me for it later, especially on a 1950 house", and we've used it for some electrical work, twice for A/C work (one of which I had to fix myself after they "fixed" it, but the other time was good), and replaced a dishwasher, all in the first year.  Second year, the oven died and it was a nightmare to get it replaced, but at least it was dual-fuel and we had the gas burners to cook with.  They raised the price a bit for the third year, but still worthwhile for a few more years.  Just for reference, the company is First American, and all the contractors that have come out for them have said they're pretty much the best around.  $400-500/year, $75 per service call, no deductible, and there are exemptions for what they cover, but all are fairly reasonable.

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## SoonerDave

> I have the same problem with swimming pool related things.  It's like pulling teeth to get someone to come out to do anything less than a major job.  I had a in-ground liner to replace and in March I called six different pool people/shops (some well-known, some referrals from friends).  Only three showed up and only two of those actually got back with me with a quote.  The guy that we chose said he does a lot of liner replacements for the larger shops because they make more money from doing new installs and pass on liner replacements.  Mine was his 8th liner replaced since February and he had a growing list.


And swimming pools, particularly in-ground ones, are a fading luxury I think. The best lesson I ever learned for *not* getting one was *growing up* with one. They're a nightmare of maintenance and support expense. Chemicals, cleaning, repairing, insuring, fixing, makes the "cost per dive" ridiculous. If I had so much money that I could literally tell a pool co to "make it ready" and throw a bunch of $$$ at it every month, maybe, but even then, the cost-to-benefit is awfully high. Real Estate folks will tell you that pools can actually be a detriment to a home's resale value because people don't want them. You couldn't pay me to put one in now. My mom mothballed her own pool years ago; covered it up and what she saves in chemicals, electricity, and related maintenance more than makes up for the cost of a nice, permanent cover.

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## jerrywall

> I want to add don't use Air Comfort Solutions. For anything. Have too many clients get hosed and had to learn the hard way. AVOID!
> 
> Travellers, congrats with the home warranty. My experience with buyers is that they usually aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Glad someone broke the mold.


Funny. That's that evil Corp that bought out my usual AC company. I immediately switched, and so did my mother.   I can't figure out how they're still growing and doing well.

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## Richard at Remax

> Ha, yeah, our realtor just included it and said "Don't argue, you'll thank me for it later, especially on a 1950 house", and we've used it for some electrical work, twice for A/C work (one of which I had to fix myself after they "fixed" it, but the other time was good), and replaced a dishwasher, all in the first year.  Second year, the oven died and it was a nightmare to get it replaced, but at least it was dual-fuel and we had the gas burners to cook with.  They raised the price a bit for the third year, but still worthwhile for a few more years.  Just for reference, the company is First American, and all the contractors that have come out for them have said they're pretty much the best around.  $400-500/year, $75 per service call, no deductible, and there are exemptions for what they cover, but all are fairly reasonable.


When I do have a buyer who insists I always recommend First American. They have solid local representatives and seem to be overwhelmingly favorable to deal with.

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## Richard at Remax

> Funny. That's that evil Corp that bought out my usual AC company. I immediately switched, and so did my mother.   I can't figure out how they're still growing and doing well.


They are still growing because they take advantage of people that don't know any better. Kudos to their marketing department. 

Two of many instances:

Friend called them out cause he didn't know any better. Unit wasn't very old but the guy tells them they need a whole new system (Apparently they get big bonuses for selling them) and gave them a quote for ~$12,500 for one HVAC system. Told him that was ludicrous. Had him call my guy and he did it for $4500.

Second instance was a family member friend had them come look at thier fairly new AC unit that was blowing out lukewarm air. Said the whole thing needed to be replace for $6,000 for just the outside unit. Gave them number of another hvac guy and it was just a capacitor. $150 fix and it was good as new.

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## SoonerDave

> They are still growing because they take advantage of people that don't know any better. Kudos to their marketing department. 
> 
> Two of many instances:
> 
> Friend called them out cause he didn't know any better. Unit wasn't very old but the guy tells them they need a whole new system (Apparently they get big bonuses for selling them) and gave them a quote for ~$12,500 for one HVAC system. Told him that was ludicrous. Had him call my guy and he did it for $4500.
> 
> Second instance was a family member friend had them come look at thier fairly new AC unit that was blowing out lukewarm air. Said the whole thing needed to be replace for $6,000 for just the outside unit. Gave them number of another hvac guy and it was just a capacitor. $150 fix and it was good as new.


Sadly, that is *precisely* consistent with the stories I've heard about ACS. *HEAVY* sales pressure, "put it in NOW or you're gonna DIE from HEAT" and *staggering* expense. I've heard second-hand that they really target seniors in many of their sales tactics, which is really deplorable if its true. My respect level for ol' former Sooner Jason White hasn't exactly improved since he put his face with that company.

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## emtefury

Good thread. 

I am on a HOA board.  We have to get brickwork repaired and finding a brick worker is not easy.  No call backs and no follow up on quotes.  

One issue as been discussed is business management. Trade workers that go into business for themselves may not have business sense and is an issue.   A trade can do quite well when the business is managed properly as word of mouth is the best advertisement.  

For example, my HVAC company owner has employees that do the installs and major work. Each year, when I do my yearly check he does it. I asked him about why he does the checks.  He said instead of sitting in the office as overhead, he makes some money for the company.  

I always do through checks on a business before I even ask for a quote.  I found the google reviews are accurate and of course word of mouth.  Trade work around the house is getting pricey. Which I believe is Lower supply and high demand of skilled workers.   My eyes usually pop out of my head on quotes and then resigned to do it my self. I ended up tiling my floor by watching YouTube.  I had he sense of accomplishment and saved some bucks. 

I got lucky on the re do of my shower.  I got a word of mouth of a guy who has no internet presence and only took cash.  I was in no way attempting to do this myself.  When he showed up, I could tell he was legit and did fine work.  

I think the market will take care of the trade industry.  With rising prices and work to be done, the younger generation will replace the old.  It is necessary work that need to be done and technology cannot eliminate it like switch board workers at the phone company.

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## stile99

I love their latest commercials where they say they will match any price on "service". Yeah yeah, you can charge a buck for "service" if you charge a thousand in "fees".

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## FighttheGoodFight

I think one thing to consider is a lot of younger people don't buy homes like older generations. No reason to learn how to mow a lawn or replace an electrical outlet if you rent for your whole life.

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## gopokes88

> 1) Long before immigration became a hot-button, the food service industry was having a terrible time with staffing.  I did consulting projects in that industry in the 90's and it bascially was causing many chains to stall expansion due directly to this issue.  (And consider the explosion in this industry of late.)
> 
> 2) With much higher wages come much higher prices, which is the most important part of this equation.
> 
> 3) Americans want things cheap, and don't really care how that happens.  Which is why Walmart is by far the biggest retailer, paying their employees poorly and buying almost everything from China.
> 
> 
> And all this is related to a meteoric increase in quality of life for Americans in just 1 or 2 generations.  Which, in turn, a big part of why young people don't want to work with their hands.


Oh I agree completely. It’s funny how many people are anti-immigrant but pro cheap things. It’s kinda an either or type deal.

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## Jersey Boss

> My respect level for ol' former Sooner Jason White hasn't exactly improved since he put his face with that company.


Same goes for Gary England. Does he really need to associate his name with that outfit?

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## Pete

BTW, I just checked my first pay stub at the old Crosswinds Motel in 1976 when I was 16.

I was paid $2.25 / hour which equates to $10.11 in 2019 money.

I doubt you could find many who would do that job today for $10/hour.  It was hard work (lawn, painting, and maintenance all outdoors)  and all day Saturday and Sunday were required.

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## baralheia

> I can echo that sentiment for my own son back when he was coming out of high school and into his early college years. He went out seemingly days at a time filling out applications at all the "Now Hiring" places; grocery stores, dept stores, you name it, and he *never* heard back, not a decline, no "no thanks," no interview, nothing. Nothing. How did he finally land a job? By going to a job fair at OCCC one day and the manager of a store that was getting ready to open needed to staff up, and he hired him on the spot. He worked there off and on for about three or four years. But what if he hadn't happened to stumble onto that job fair??


Purely anecdotal, but about a decade ago - during the recession - I was an assistant manager for a local fast food restaurant. Our turnover was relatively low, but corporate mandated that all stores kept the "Now Hiring" sign in the window. We got so, so many applications, all the time, and every time we were ready to hire one or two people, there was literally a stack of apps to shuffle through. As a result, the vast majority of our applicants never received a response from us - while we would inform applicants if we had positions available when they turned in an application, we just simply didn't have the time to go through and respond to each and every application. I suspect with today's low unemployment that this problem is exacerbated.

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## jerrywall

> BTW, I just checked my first pay stub at the old Crosswinds Motel in 1976 when I was 16.
> 
> I was paid $2.25 / hour which equates to $10.11 in 2019 money.
> 
> I doubt you could find many who would do that job today for $10/hour.  It was hard work (lawn, painting, and maintenance all outdoors)  and all day Saturday and Sunday were required.


^^ I was doing landscaping in 1994 at $10 an hour.  Hard, hot, and miserable work, especially during the summers. That's $16.54 in 2019 money.  Same opinion.  I can't imagine doing that now, when someone could work in an temperature controlled warehouse for about the same.

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## OKCRT

> Thanks for the replies.  
> 
> I try to do things by myself when I can, I also have a home warranty for everything inside the house that breaks, so I have to use whoever they choose to come out.  But if it's not actually broken and just needs work, I have to find someone - water heater wasn't broken, but was so gunked up and old I didn't want to wait until it broke because with the home warranty, I'd report it, they'd assign it to someone, they'd get back to me a day later, then schedule something for who knows how far in the future (usually a few days), then it'd take them 2 days to fix it (one to come out and "diagnose", then they'd come back later to do the work), and we'd be without hot water all that time, so I just bit the bullet and got a new one with my bonus this year.  I can't do a water heater by myself, so I need a plumber.  I don't have the knowledge to "fix" my yard, so once I get that knowledge, I can do the work myself, but first I have to find someone with the knowledge.  
> 
> So for those that use companies with employees, how do you know that they're that kind of company?  I went to Fox Brick's site and it looks like a place that isn't a one-man shop, but apparently it is (or pretty close).  And why can't these people just say "can't do it right now, sorry"?  I don't take on projects at my workplace if I don't have time to do them, why do they appear to be taking new customers if they aren't?  It just engenders pissed-off-ness and no return calls and bad reviews.
> 
> And if anybody asks me for a recommendation for a tradesman and I know one, I give it to them, it's on the tradesman to decline/accept new customers, IMO.  I just don't understand this way of thinking, but then again, I'm an IT guy, not a tradesman, so maybe this is just the way they work.
> 
> So off to Angie's List I go to find a chimney repair place...


Let me know if you find a good chimney person. I need a cap on one of my houses chimneys. Angies list and the other home adviser are the ones that these Trades pay an advertisement fee to so they can get up higher on their list. That kind of makes me wonder about these services. Pretty sure when these Angie list types started they did not charge the trades to be on their list. Take with a grain of salt is all I'm saying.

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## TheTravellers

> Let me know if you find a good chimney person. I need a cap on one of my houses chimneys. Angies list and the other home adviser are the ones that these Trades pay an advertisement fee to so they can get up higher on their list. That kind of makes me wonder about these services. Pretty sure when these Angie list types started they did not charge the trades to be on their list. Take with a grain of salt is all I'm saying.


Will do, I actually asked for a quote on Thumbtack instead of Angie's, will see if he gets back to me.  Apparently Thumbtack shares some of your info with other "pros" on their site 'cos I got an unsolicited email from somebody, will have to check him out and see if he can do what I'm looking for.

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## rtz

From a lawn companies perspective:

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## rtz

The other company:

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## TheTravellers

OK, here's my experience with Thumbtack and Angie's List - out of 3 quotes I requested on Thumbtack, nobody got back to me, and out of 2 quotes on Angie's List, only 1 got back to me.  So I literally had the opposite experience of the guy above - he sent out quotes all the time and nobody responded, and I asked for quotes and only 1 responded.  Two sides to every story.  :Smile:

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## mugofbeer

TheTravellers has me on ignore but I have the same situation in Denver with home repair people.  I think it's just part of the national shortage of people who are skilled in the trades.  I've worked hard with my son to learn a lot of practical trade knowledge and it's already paid off for him getting a high school job at a hardware store.  They love him because he can fix things and has knowledge of trade matters.  He is actually considering trades as a career.

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## gopokes88

Most electricians that I employ have a pecking order of jobs they like to work-industrial, commercial, then last residential.

They'll tell you res is the most price sensitive, you deal with the highest # of crazy people, they are the least quality focused, and most likely to be slow to pay or skip paying at all.

At least with electricians, the really high end talented guys, like working heavy industrial or oilfield. It's where the highest wages and most challenging work is.

So on top of all the other issues, you're also facing that.

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## jn1780

In this modern networking age, you have to go through a lot work to "sale yourself" to companies in addition to the college degree you earn. This is not much different than what a trades person has to do to get clients.   

The younger generations are slowly starting to figure out that college is not an 'easy' path to higher wages and a person in a trade can often make higher wages through same amount of effort someone in college does.

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## MadMonk

> And swimming pools, particularly in-ground ones, are a fading luxury I think. The best lesson I ever learned for *not* getting one was *growing up* with one. They're a nightmare of maintenance and support expense. Chemicals, cleaning, repairing, insuring, fixing, makes the "cost per dive" ridiculous. If I had so much money that I could literally tell a pool co to "make it ready" and throw a bunch of $$$ at it every month, maybe, but even then, the cost-to-benefit is awfully high. Real Estate folks will tell you that pools can actually be a detriment to a home's resale value because people don't want them. You couldn't pay me to put one in now. My mom mothballed her own pool years ago; covered it up and what she saves in chemicals, electricity, and related maintenance more than makes up for the cost of a nice, permanent cover.


I'm not so sure about the fading part.  I know several people in my circle that have put in new pools or bought homes with pools recently.  But yeah I agree that they can be a PITA.  I've had above-ground pools in the past and was at least somewhat familiar with the effort and costs involved before buying a home with a pool.  On this in-ground pool, I can say that with it being a salt-water pool, the maintenance is much less of a hassle and I've found that I don't have to spend a ton of time or money on it.  A little bit of TLC when opening and closing the pool goes a long way.  Some of my friends pay to have their pools opened and closed professionally, but I like doing it myself.  It's not difficult and only takes a few hours on a Saturday afternoon to accomplish. 

However, the electrical cost was a huge increase for me and was quite the wake-up call the first summer I owned it.  When I bought the house my insurance agent, who is also a good friend of the family, gave me some good advice; he said to use the pool as often as you can, or you will begin to resent the time, money and effort it requires from you.  He was so right.  I curse it when things go wrong, but I really do enjoy it and use it frequently, typically from late May to early October.  

Having said that, once I reach retirement, I don't think I will want deal with the hassles of pool ownership in the same way I don't believe I'll want to have a large yard to care for.  Downsizing is definitely in the plan for us eventually.

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## Laramie

Pools are truly a PITA and it *IMO* is not worth the money, time & security you put into them.  The thought of possibly waking up some morning to discover a child or grandchild has drown in your prized pool.

Those of you who have them, great.  There are benefits & rewards.  When you get to the point where you can't maintain them to standards--it become the deciding factor to have it cover up or leave it as a potential death trap for anyone or anything.

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## MadMonk

> Pools are truly a PITA and it *IMO* is not worth the money, time & security you put into them.  The thought of possibly waking up some morning to discover a child or grandchild has drown in your prized pool.
> 
> Those of you who have them, great.  There are benefits & rewards.  When you get to the point where you can't maintain them to standards--it become the deciding factor to have it cover up or leave it as a potential death trap for anyone or anything.


Yeah, I can imagine it's a worry for those with small kids.  Ours are grown beyond that now, but I'm sure any future grandkids would be a worry as well.   We do have a fence around the pool and use a safety cover in the winter.  One of my friends has an old blind dog that has inadvertently stepped into his pool more than once, fortunately only on the steps.  He's got a temporary fence up in his yard to control where the dog can go now.  Access control is definitely something to consider.

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## Mel

> My wife and I are planning on pushing our son and hopefully the next couple of kids to be in the trades rather than going down the white-collar path.


Wise choice. We have good Trade Schools in this state. Always going to be work for a Tradesman.

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