# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Midwest City/Del City >  Entertainment section at Heritage Park Mall?

## grandshoemaster

Here is an interesting article from a while back.  They talk about unclear plans for the Albertsons on Reno in which we now now will be a Neighboorhood Market by Walmart.  But they have an interesting idea for HPM.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_n54994376

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## OKCJapan

I would be very interested to see what will will come about at HPM is anything.  I think the Movie Theatre idea would be great.

I was a teenager in HPM's hay-day back in the eighties. I remember the main intersection there at Air Depot and Reno was a significant place where we as young people used to gather.  It is unfortunate that the city past an ordinance banning such gatherings.  From that point, seemed to be the beginning of the decline of HPM.  Of course I understand that bringing back an era like that for revitalization is impossible because so much of our culture has changed.  

I think what should be done is to increase the development of new housing communities north of the mall all the way to 23 street.  This would no doubt increase traffic in the area.  And if there were shops/retail locally, then I believe they would have have more appeal to local residents which could spark developers investing in the area.  For me living located on the east side of town at Westminister and 15th street, having local shops at Post and 15th is a real convenience.  Sometimes when we casually go/went out, we do not want to travel far.  Therefore, we often ate at Braums, got a Lemon-Berry slush at Sonic and picked up a few grocery items at Buy for Less.

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## Thunder

Is the MWC at fault for stopping the annual carnival when they passed this mysterious ordinance? 

I'd love to have a store inside HPM when its completely renovated and revived.  One sad thing about the Dillard's building is a church (sighs) taking control of it and doing nothing with it.

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## plmccordj

I just drove by Heritage Park Mall and it appears that people are working on the building and sidewalks around it.

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## bombermwc

Maybe they're trimming up some of the overgrowth? If I were Sears, i would be very unhappy that while I was committed to staying, that nothing is being done to keep the property up...and my customers have to go through crap (parking lots) to get to my store. Too bad they can't move somewhere else...but it's not worth it to Sears to build new on the east side. Heck, just look at the south side store to see how you can NOT do anything to your building.

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## plmccordj

I just drove by there a few minutes ago and now they are installing a sign on the old Dillards.  All they have up at the moment is a big square frame.  This is promising.

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## grandshoemaster

I know that Life Church bought the Dillards section a while back.  And I heard the other day that they would be moved in and operating by July.  This might actually encourage more business back to the mall.

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## GWB

The sign is up at Dillards. It's the big Life Church sign, same as they have at all of their churches here in town.  There's new blacktop on the parking lot surface too.  Trimming bushes and cleaning up around the outside of that part of the mall.  Looking good!

GWB

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## Corndog1

They need to knock down everything in between the sears and the old dillards and build one or two single stores or restaurants.  No offense, but what business is really going to want to be next door to a sears and a church?  I usually spend time at one if not both during the week, but im going to them for a reason each time i go.

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## bombermwc

Very true. Talk about an akward structure now. You've got a church on one end and Sears 1/4 mile down on the other. Both ends have their parking lots in order along with trimmed overgrowth. But between, it's an abandoned overgrowing mess of crap. 

It seems to me that converting to office space would be great. But I don't know about the structural issues inside...if it makes sense. Since the hospital still hasn't moved on the Target conversion, then they would be even less likely to convert to physicians offices or something. BUT, MWC is maxed out in capacity in office space (ie non-strip center). MD tower stays full as well as the Parklawn. It was 20 years between Parklawn's construction and the MD Tower. Now it's been 20 years since MD was built. Seems like a good time to either doze and put in a new office tower or convert to office. Although, if the place has mold problems like I think it does, why not just doze and start over from scratch. The need for space is there in MWC as shown by all the stupid mini-house offices and strip office space that keeps going up and filling up. I HATE THOSE THINGS!

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## grandshoemaster

http://eastword.net/oklahoma/article...park-mall.html

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## Thunder

That is very good news.  Retail can come back and its a prime spot.  It really sucks how that *ahem* church invaded the area and converted it.  I honestly do not think it is good/wise for a church to be there.  I hope the owner can really change the appearance, but it falls on the people (all of us) to actually get our butt out there to shop once stores set up.

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## bombermwc

We had that chance before it closed. We told the mall that we didn't want to shop there beacuse of the decisions they were making for tenants.

As for the new owner, I can only hope that he is able to do something of consequence to the place. I'd love to see a meaningful change there...retail or not. I don't really think retail is going to work there again, but who knows. It's a shame to see the place the way it is.

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## Bimmerdude

Not knocking the religion thing, but who would want to set up shop near the entrance to a church?  I say Victoria's Secret, Spencer's Gifts or some sort of smoke shop should set up shop on that side of the mall.

On a serious note, it would be nice to renovate the theater.

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## Thunder

> Not knocking the religion thing, but who would want to set up shop near the entrance to a church?  I say Victoria's Secret, Spencer's Gifts or some sort of smoke shop should set up shop on that side of the mall.
> 
> On a serious note, it would be nice to renovate the theater.


I think the church closed up the wall.

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## Jesseda

possible upscale flea market type thing maybe?

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## plmccordj

> Not knocking the religion thing, but who would want to set up shop near the entrance to a church?


Lifechurch has not hurt the business at Academy Sports or Johnny Carinos on the South Side.  Nice to see how hostile this board is toward people that attend church.

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## grandshoemaster

Yea, when service lets out you have several hundred people right next to your business.  Surely that can't be bad for business.

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## bombermwc

They started putting a new entrance up on the Dillard's building.

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## plmccordj

> Yea, when service lets out you have several hundred people right next to your business.  Surely that can't be bad for business.


You know... You have to seriously have issues to think that a lot of people near a business is bad for business.  What do you have against churches?  Why don't you go over there sometime and see for yourself?  Business is thriving over there.  I guess people that go to church don't spend money.

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## kevinpate

FWIW, there be ample numbers of folk who attend church who would visit Spencer's Gifts, shop at Victoria's Secret, even consume tobacco.
They also eat out, buy clothes, put gas in their tanks, etc.  So the notion that having a facility that draws in hundreds of folk several times a week or smaller groups throughout the week for practices, meetings, study, prayer, fellowship, etc. would be a poor business move is, well, sorta silly.

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## zrfdude

> You know... You have to seriously have issues to think that a lot of people near a business is bad for business.  What do you have against churches?  Why don't you go over there sometime and see for yourself?  Business is thriving over there.  I guess people that go to church don't spend money.


You seriously have issues when your defensiveness prevents you from seeing that someone agrees with you.

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## Thunder

What bothers me is this church...is all about vanity and greed.  Their misplaced sign on the building has their web site domain advertising and its ".TV" which is super lame.  If a church want to have a web site, that is fine, as long its .org or any acceptable extension.  But a .TV?!  Its like they are screaming, "Look at me, I'm on TV, and we are number one!"  Not bashing the people attending that kind of church, just saying.  And I still believe this location is just wrong for a church (within a retail/business/whatever mall).  I just hope that someone comes along and buy them out.

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## kevinpate

> What bothers me is this church...is all about vanity and greed.  Their misplaced sign on the building has their web site domain advertising and its ".TV" which is super lame.  If a church want to have a web site, that is fine, as long its .org or any acceptable extension.  But a .TV?!  Its like they are screaming, "Look at me, I'm on TV, and we are number one!"  Not bashing the people attending that kind of church, just saying.  And I still believe this location is just wrong for a church (within a retail/business/whatever mall).  I just hope that someone comes along and buy them out.


Laddie, fwiw, .tv is an acceptable domain (though my recall is that particular domain extension is often more pricey than it should be, but perhaps that's just me.)  You've got some heartburn about that particular church, and that's your choice, but if memory serves, they dinna go in and kick some retailer out of the space.  It was sitting empty and unwanted until the church made it into something for them.  I can't iamgine it was a better use for it to sit there empty and neglected.

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## grandshoemaster

I was not being sarcastic.  


> You know... You have to seriously have issues to think that a lot of people near a business is bad for business.  What do you have against churches?  Why don't you go over there sometime and see for yourself?  Business is thriving over there.  I guess people that go to church don't spend money.

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## jn1780

The church isn't a negative, but it isn't going to be enough to bring retail back into that mall.  Retailers would maybe see an increase in traffic one or two days a week from the church. Certainly not enough to make up for the lack of a retail anchor.  I'm favoring office development for the mall or demolition of anything not occupied.

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## bombermwc

Actually Kevin, what they did was steal the buidling from another church. There was previously a church that was inside the mall that was trying to purchase the building. LifeChurch came in and just before the contract was signed, offered more money. 

I don't think that was very nice of them to pull the rug out from under another church, which then had to fold when the building closed.

A lot of people seem to get something out of Life Church, and that's great. Not for me. I've had some family situations with the church that expose their focus on income for the church more than the message....but who's to say that's not common for a lot of churches out there. Heck, the same thing could be said for Meadowood right around the corner...depends on who you talk to.

I will find it interesting to see if they still let Meadowood folks park and shuttle over like they have for how ever many decades. I guess they can just move over one lot if Life Church says no. If they do say no, it would just be another example of them not playing nice with others.

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## kevinpate

> Actually Kevin, what they did was steal the buidling from another church. There was previously a church that was inside the mall that was trying to purchase the building. LifeChurch came in and just before the contract was signed, offered more money. 
> 
> I don't think that was very nice of them to pull the rug out from under another church, which then had to fold when the building closed.
> 
> ...


Wasn't aware of that information.  Were it any entities other than churches involved, it would be a simple straight forward better business deal for the seller to have a more motivated buyer appear on the scene.  Even with churches involved, I imagine that's all it was from the seller's standpoint - take the higher offer and let God deal with those making the offers as God elects.  I can however see where it seems sort of claim jumpery for one church to push another aside.

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## metro

Thunder, I go to Lifechurch.tv, it's one of the largest and most respected churches in the world, especially for its' generosity. FYI, the .tv domain was obtained simply because .com was not available, that's it. Plenty of churches and businesses use .tv and aren't "on tv". I invite you toncheck put the church for yourself before you form an uneducated opinion. FYI, the space has been empty for years, so if anything, it will help bring to life that part of MWC. As far as bringing new retail, it's possible, several thousand people attend each campus, except the main campus, which has tens of thousands.

As far as bombermwc's claims, I'd like to see factual evidence and not word of mouth libel. I've attended for 12 years and never seen anything of the sorts. I don't think they would be One of the fastest growing and most respected churches in the world for so long, and be one of only a few churches who is accredited by a well respected independent 3rd party on their financial transparency. The annual statement is on the website for anyone to read, and the church gives away it's sermons, sermon notes, kids videos, and much more for FREE to thousands of churches globally every year, when most churches charge good money. Bombermwc has proven himself to be anti- lifechurch for quite some time, but I've never seen once any factual evidence of his claims.

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## Thunder

Metro, what bombermwc said was true.  I remember it being discussed about the transactions last year or so.

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## bombermwc

You want to hear the story metro, here you go.

I have family, my sister and her family, that went there for years...basically since Life Church came into existence. They travled from MWC to Edmond every Sunday because they liked it so much. South campus opens, great, less travel time. So for a decade, they've been worshiping there and have enjoyed it. It was a way for them to connect in a way that a traditional church couldn't get them to.

And let me stop right here for a second. If you read my post, you'd see that I said this church isn't for me...not that it was bad. And I prefaced my financial comment with how I feel like a lot of churches are this way and that LC isn't something special in that regard. So stop making a bigger deal of it that it is. If you get something out of LC, more power to you. I don't care.

So they decided one day this last year to tithe in a great way. They wanted to give an amount that would financially stress them a little...really make an effort to give to those that could use it...even when they could have really used the money for so many things in their own little family. So after years of being ignored (no one ever spoke to them unless they made the effort first, no one ever invited them to church events, the pastor didn't know their names, etc....they were a number), all of a sudden after that check flows in a letter comes to their house inviting my brother-in-law (not my sister...no mention of her name, even though it's on the check) to coffee and to "hang out" some time. And magically the next Sunday, someone recognizes them and talks to them...pastor is all buddy-buddy. Again, ONLY to my brother-in-law, my sister still doesn't exist. They try to brush it off and give the benefit of the doubt...maybe it would look bad for the pastor to have coffee with a female (although i thought a pastor should be able to spend time with either sex without someone making a deal about it). Whatever.

Fast forward a few months and they give again and guess what, the same freaking thing happens again. Again only my brother-in-law is mentioned in the letter and spoken to at church. No mention of my sister. Nothing. Same crap happens at the service the next Sunday. At that point, they stopped going there.

So don't feed me a line about how it doesn't happen, beacuse I've experienced it. Not to mention how they ask you "what group are you a part of", not "can we help find you a group that fits you". They force it.

By the way, largest doesn't equate to the "greatest" either. In fact, I've seen the opposite is usually true. While they may have more resources, they also become less of a family group the larger the church. At that point, people don't know each other any more...you can go to LC every week and see someone you haven't seen before. Just like with any scale, the larger the group, the less focus there is on the individual. I can call my pastor and know if I need him to come over, he'll be there as soon as his car can get him there no matter the time. Tell me it's the same for LC. Tell me you won't have a "group" you work from first. I'm not a megachurch fan. But hey, if that's what gets the message to you, great fine I'm happy for you.

The point at the end of the day, no matter your opinion on the organized church, is to get the message. If you've got something that's working for you, awesome. I don't really care what the carrier of that message is. You want a megachurch, fine dandy go for it. But don't pretent that everyone magically thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread either. It doesn't catch flack and criticism just because it exists.

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## Thunder

BomberMWC, he want to know about the shady transaction LC did for Dillard's building.

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## Bimmerdude

Yeah, went by HPM yesterday (had to get my Craftsman fix from Sears).  That Lifechurch thing is really taking off.  Still, sad to see the rest of the mall all deserted and all.

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## mmonroe

First, let me say, it's great to be back on OKCtalk after being absent for awhile.  Now to join in.




> What bothers me is this church...is all about vanity and greed.  Their misplaced sign on the building has their web site domain advertising and its ".TV" which is super lame.  If a church want to have a web site, that is fine, as long its .org or any acceptable extension.  But a .TV?!  Its like they are screaming, "Look at me, I'm on TV, and we are number one!"  Not bashing the people attending that kind of church, just saying.  And I still believe this location is just wrong for a church (within a retail/business/whatever mall).  I just hope that someone comes along and buy them out.


Nice to see that your ignorance still keeps you in bliss thunder.  You seem to have an issue with the whole mega church thing.  If you were to ever fly into DFW from OKC, don't look out the window.  You might get a little pissy that another mega church, lifechurch.tv that advertises everything just like that, and more specifically, they do it on their roof, it's HUGE, also advertises with the .tv  Now let me tell you from a marketing standpoint, this is brilliant.  Nothing allows you to say more in this world, than a website that people go to.  Just seeing the name you instantly know they have a website, and for the curious, what do they do, go to the website.  It's brilliant in it's simplicity, you'll never forget that name or url address.  It's catchy, which is what you want if you're a progressive church that fits into reaching a more unchurched society.  If the shiny doors and well kept modern interior says to you that they are just after money, but yet brings in a non-christian to be saved and changes their life (even if it's just 1 person, it's worth it.), then who are you to say what they are doing is wrong.  Are you jealous, are you coveting your neighbors possessions?  If I were to assume, your definition of a church building would be a small group in a shack.  Don't hate on someone who's spreading the message and doing great at it.  Now I won't delve into the human psyche for the part of the population who attends church just to simply fulfill a social engagement in their life or as "something to do."  If you're any type of christian at all, be happy that they are reaching people, that most other churches can not.  From a non religious view, be glad that something is being done with the building that a blighted area in our city is having new life put into it.  




> Lifechurch has not hurt the business at Academy Sports or Johnny Carinos on the South Side.  Nice to see how hostile this board is toward people that attend church.


Want to throw in this quote from plm too, LifeChurch south is booming, so is the retail area.  Academy and Johnny Carinos are perfect examples of what can happen to a retail/business/whatever area.  




> Laddie, fwiw, .tv is an acceptable domain (though my recall is that particular domain extension is often more pricey than it should be, but perhaps that's just me.)  You've got some heartburn about that particular church, and that's your choice, but if memory serves, they dinna go in and kick some retailer out of the space.  It was sitting empty and unwanted until the church made it into something for them.  I can't iamgine it was a better use for it to sit there empty and neglected.


Again, this is great Kevin.  I'm happy they are doing something with the building, it was a big box plain jane store, now it's got sexy lines, lol, if I can say that.  It looks nice.  Good choice for the area.

To also repeat bomber, it was my families church who were in HPM and that were going to buy Dillard's, but then LC.tv stepped in an stole it.  Yes, I was bitter about it at first, but once i've grown up a little bit and look at the bigger picture, I think it's wonderful.

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## Thunder

> To also repeat bomber, it was my families church who were in HPM and that were going to buy Dillard's, but then LC.tv stepped in an stole it.  Yes, I was bitter about it at first, but once i've grown up a little bit and look at the bigger picture, I think it's wonderful.


Why do you think it is wonderful?  It was extremely poor and disrespectful business tactic on Life Church's end.  They knew a smaller church was about to close the deal.  Life Church had no right to bully the church out of the way and offer more money.  See... That what it was to Life Church....money talks.  Money, money, its all about the money.  

Anyway, I don't remember you, but welcome back.

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## mmonroe

I think it's wonderful because 1) I knew that my families church could not update the facility, and possible, because of size restraints, not fully be able to support the building.  It was a cart before the horse story, but if you build it they will come, gotta have faith type thing.  2) the amount of people they can reach in our area that don't like the current levels of atmosphere in churches, will attract those people that the mom and pop type churches, traditional churches, and less known denominations, have failed to do.  3) It made me rise above my anger/dislike for LC.tv and see beyond my own self that they could do more for the community than my families church could have.

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## bombermwc

Well that church was also forced into a situation where they knew their building was going away and had to scramble for something to do. I'm not sure why they didn't pursue something like the service merchandise building (maybe it wasn't independently owned like Dillards and Sears?). It was also a very small congregation in comparison. There's no way they would have had the funding to do what LF has done. I still think it's a bit underhanded in the way it was done, but pissing and moaning about it now isn't going to change anything.

If you haven't gone by HPM lately, the entrance for LF is pretty danged cool looking. Talk about a total makeover! I am still curious if Meadowood is still using the parking lot for shuttle parking though.

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## metro

Over 3,000 people opening weekend at LC.tv MWC! praise God!

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## EBAH

I was kind of under the impression that LifeChurch is a "religious corporation" that runs a chain of charitable country/social clubs for folks that can't afford dues at OKC Golf& Country Club

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## mmonroe

> Well that church was also forced into a situation where they knew their building was going away and had to scramble for something to do. I'm not sure why they didn't pursue something like the service merchandise building (maybe it wasn't independently owned like Dillards and Sears?). It was also a very small congregation in comparison. There's no way they would have had the funding to do what LF has done. I still think it's a bit underhanded in the way it was done, but pissing and moaning about it now isn't going to change anything.
> 
> If you haven't gone by HPM lately, the entrance for LF is pretty danged cool looking. Talk about a total makeover! I am still curious if Meadowood is still using the parking lot for shuttle parking though.


Well, the other church before LC couldn't exactly try another option because of time restraints.  When the lease was up, the new management was slow in letting them know if they could renew or not well ahead of time, and got the answer to be out within 30 days.  The process of getting everything refiled and applications filled out again for the help in the purchase of a new building was also time consuming.  

And Meadowood is using Anthony's down the other direction more so than HPs parking lot anymore.  




> Over 3,000 people opening weekend at LC.tv MWC! praise God!


The parking lot was PACKED!




> I was kind of under the impression that LifeChurch is a "religious corporation" that runs a chain of charitable country/social clubs for folks that can't afford dues at OKC Golf& Country Club


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!HZH!KDS:J!!!!!

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## bombermwc

Gotta say i'm sort of of the same opinion as EBAH. If someone else gets something out of the place, great. Just not for me.

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## oneforone

I have never been big fan of the megachurches. I think the best descripition I have ever heard was "Church Lite". Megachurces whitewash all the bad behavior and sell people on the idea of "As long as your happy and you know that God Loves you... It's all good." Who cares if you rob, steal and cheat your way through life. As long as your pray for forgiveness, you never have to change your ways. The biggest thing I don't like is that the Megachurches work too hard to lure me in. 

Yes, I am searching for a church home. No, I don't want you solicit me in the same way Best Buy, McDonalds, Walmart or JCPenney would for my retail business. I'm not looking for a product, I'm looking for a church that will be second family and believe in all of God's teachings not just those that are tied to making me feel good. The teachings of God are supposed to mold people into being better people without being compelled to open their wallet so a new franchise can be opened.

I do know one thing. I am going to have to move or make it a point to stay home on certain days of the week. Reno Air Depot are going to be a nightmare to navigate this fall when Lifechurch and Peoples Church are open.

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## Charlie40

I would invite you to try out Crossroads Church at SW 89th and Shields. Good biblical teaching, awesome worship and a friendly atmosphere.

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## Thunder

Drove by on Sunday and saw some sort of fight out front of the new doors.  One of them was flipping the others off.  Interesting fight.  I should have pulled over and videoed it all for YouTube.

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## bombermwc

I'm so glad the congregation is already getting along so well.....NOT! LOL

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