# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  Downtown Grocery Store

## bchris02

One of the things many people who live downtown or support downtown's growth want to see is a full-service grocery store.  Native Roots is a start, but most people desire something larger.  The thing is, we have to be careful what we wish for.  Wal-Mart could easily put in a SuperCenter downtown which would be detrimental to developing the type of urban environment most want downtown to become.  Steve mentioned a SuperTarget which could work if done right like this one in Charlotte.



Another option would be something like a 2-story Crest Fresh Market, creating a lower overall footprint for the store but still enough square footage to have a full store.  Something like that would also attract people from outside the downtown area being that people drive all the way from NW OKC to shop at Crest at 104th and S May.

Whatever ends up coming, somebody needs to get there before Wal-Mart does.

Does anybody think downtown is ready today for a grocery store and is anything possibly in the works?

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## Mississippi Blues

I have no idea where OKC stands on being able to support one or if one is already in the works, but I think Target's CityTarget concept would be a great addition here. Even an urban Wal-Mart/Wal-Mart Express wouldn't be devilish, although I'd prefer a Target.

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## BDP

Personally, I would not like to have anything of the "super" variety. For me the appeal of urban areas is the varitety of small shops in a walkable environment. I certainly wouldn't be outspoken against a super mart, as long as it didn't involve demolition or the creation of a vast parking lot that interrupts the urban landscape. But something more along the lines of a 10-20k square foot full service grocery would be more appealing. However  just not sure how much interest the industry has in those type of stores. The best would be a collection of specialty markets and I like that those seem to be what we're seeing so far. If they can gain footing before a mega store comes in, then I think we can create a real urban option for people in Oklahoma City.

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## bchris02

> I have no idea where OKC stands on being able to support one or if one is already in the works, but I think Target's CityTarget concept would be a great addition here. Even an urban Wal-Mart/Wal-Mart Express wouldn't be devilish, although I'd prefer a Target.


The problem with Wal-Mart is anything they build is always suburban in nature and given the track record in places like Bricktown, I doubt the city would force them to change their design.  Plus, fair or not, Wal-Mart has a stigma.

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## CaptDave

A local alternative would be for Buy 4 Less to take their Uptown Grocery concept from Edmond to ... well, to town. The basic building design of the Edmond store would work very well in many locations but I think somewhere in Midtown would be great. Maybe on one of those huge open areas north of 10th?

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## bchris02

> A local alternative would be for Buy 4 Less to take their Uptown Grocery concept from Edmond to ... well, to town. The basic building design of the Edmond store would work very well in many locations but I think somewhere in Midtown would be great. Maybe on one of those huge open areas north of 10th?


I didn't think about this, but it would be perfect.

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## Just the facts

One of the biggest problems with the CityTarget concept is Wall Street.  The concept was launched in early 2012 and by mid-2012 the Wall Street analyst were already calling it a failure and of course, we know what happens to companies who don't increase their stock value every quarter.  Outside a few cities in the US urban living hasn't existed in any meaningful way for 50 years - and 6 months into rebuilding it one of the corporate pioneers is already taking the arrows.

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## warreng88

I am curious what is the hold up on Braum's putting in one of their Fresh Market concepts in OKC around the DT/Midtown area. Their farm is in Tuttle and I would think a basic selection of bread, milk, eggs, cheese, meat, fruits, vegetables, not to mention ice cream and all the other stuff they offer would be a slam dunk.

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## BoulderSooner

i think that they have a plan to replace their 16th and classen store

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## Pete

> i think that they have a plan to replace their 16th and classen store


Yes, they purchased land to the west of that site and will at some point rebuild with their new concept.  And I'm sure they feel they are serving downtown and Midtown through that location.

Same can be said of the Safeway at 18th & Classen.  That IS an urban grocery store and while not great, people tend to dismiss it.

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## Plutonic Panda

> A local alternative would be for Buy 4 Less to take their Uptown Grocery concept from Edmond to ... well, to town. The basic building design of the Edmond store would work very well in many locations but I think somewhere in Midtown would be great. Maybe on one of those huge open areas north of 10th?


Don't you take my store away from meh now!!! lol, I think Up(Down)town grocery would be a huge success downtown no doubt though

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## Buffalo Bill

> Yes, they purchased land to the west of that site and will at some point rebuild with their new concept.  And I'm sure they feel they are serving downtown and Midtown through that location.
> 
> Same can be said of the Safeway at 18th & Classen.  That IS an urban grocery store and while not great, people tend to dismiss it.


Pete, you're showing your age.  

I swear, it took me 5 years to stop calling that place Safeway.

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## adaniel

> Yes, they purchased land to the west of that site and will at some point rebuild with their new concept.  And I'm sure they feel they are serving downtown and Midtown through that location.
> 
> Same can be said of the Safeway at 18th & Classen.  That IS an urban grocery store and while not great, people tend to dismiss it.


The Homeland (formerly Safeway) could really be a decent store. Why they chose to not fix it up is beyond me. It can be borderline depressing to go there sometimes. 

Its going to be a while before there are enough rooftops to support any sort of full scale grocery store downtown, which is usually about 10K households. At last check, we were slightly more than halfway there when including Heritage Hills and Mesta Park.

Until then, I am really trying to support Native Roots. Its not practical for basic everyday needs, but its very good for meats and veggies.

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## GaryOKC6

> The Homeland (formerly Safeway) could really be a decent store. Why they chose to not fix it up is beyond me. It can be borderline depressing to go there sometimes. 
> 
> Its going to be a while before there are enough rooftops to support any sort of full scale grocery store downtown, which is usually about 10K households. At last check, we were slightly more than halfway there when including Heritage Hills and Mesta Park.
> 
> Until then, I am really trying to support Native Roots. Its not practical for basic everyday needs, but its very good for meats and veggies.


Homeland simply will not put any money into their stores.  They have some nice stores but they are former Albertsons stores that were already nice when they bought them.  I used to sell equipment to homeland and they were always looking for used stuff.

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## bchris02

> Homeland simply will not put any money into their stores.  They have some nice stores but they are former Albertsons stores that were already nice when they bought them.  I used to sell equipment to homeland and they were always looking for used stuff.


I am not sure that is completely the case. They are just very selective on the stores the put money into and they neglect the rest of them. Both Edmond locations are pretty nice. One was a former Albertson's and the other was not.  I sometimes wish though a larger chain would buy up Homeland and actually put money into the currently neglected stores.

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## metro

Target has a new "Citi" concept, I emailed them the other day to get OKC on the list. Not very likely I'm sure, but at least it gets OKC's name out there for interest.

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## OKCisOK4me

> Pete, you're showing your age.  
> 
> I swear, it took me 5 years to stop calling that place Safeway.


Safeway's still exist out west...

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## Pete

Yes, sorry for the old Safeway reference!

Actually, Safeway only spun off the Oklahoma stores and remains the 2nd largest grocery chain in the U.S. with over 1,600 stores.

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## HangryHippo

> Yes, sorry for the old Safeway reference!
> 
> Actually, Safeway only spun off the Oklahoma stores and remains the 2nd largest grocery chain in the U.S. with over 1,600 stores.


That's a damn shame we were the only ones spun off. We might have seen some investment in this store.

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## Pete

I'm amazed the Kroger chain hasn't ventured into Oklahoma.

The markets in OK are generally sub-standard and Kroger does a great job and offers excellent prices.

They operate out here in Cali as Ralph's and they are my go-to regular grocery store, supplemented by Costco and Trader Joe's.

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## soonerguru

> One of the biggest problems with the CityTarget concept is Wall Street.  The concept was launched in early 2012 and by mid-2012 the Wall Street analyst were already calling it a failure and of course, we know what happens to companies who don't increase their stock value every quarter.  Outside a few cities in the US urban living hasn't existed in any meaningful way for 50 years - and 6 months into rebuilding it one of the corporate pioneers is already taking the arrows.


Who gives an F what these flipping vampires think?

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## Plutonic Panda

> Target has a new "Citi" concept, I emailed them the other day to get OKC on the list. Not very likely I'm sure, but at least it gets OKC's name out there for interest.


I'll email them as well. Do they have a specific email to reach at for the Citi stores or just whatever I find?

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## Plutonic Panda

> I'm amazed the Kroger chain hasn't ventured into Oklahoma.
> 
> The markets in OK are generally sub-standard and Kroger does a great job and offers excellent prices.
> 
> They operate out here in Cali as Ralph's and they are my go-to regular grocery store, supplemented by Costco and Trader Joe's.


Kroger and Tom Thumb both. I was recently in Dallas and had a manager from Tom Thumb tell me that OKC is being looked at, but he said nothing more. Same story for almost everything it seems like. :/

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## bluedogok

> Safeway's still exist out west...


We have them in Denver. Kroger is operated under the King Soupers brand here, we rarely go to Safeway. Wal Mart Neighborhood Markets have opened up in the last year here as well.




> Yes, sorry for the old Safeway reference!
> 
> Actually, Safeway only spun off the Oklahoma stores and remains the 2nd largest grocery chain in the U.S. with over 1,600 stores.


They were also spun off in Texas because of the Milken junk bond scandal, in the Austin area they were called Apple Tree. My wife said the store by our house in South Austin was originally a Safeway, then was an Apple Tree, she isn't sure if they were bought out or closed up shop. A Hobby Lobby moved in there until they moved to Southpark Meadows and then a Sunflower opened up in there. Safeway now owns the Randall's/Tom Thumb chain in Texas.

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## soonergooner

> I am not sure that is completely the case. They are just very selective on the stores the put money into and they neglect the rest of them. Both Edmond locations are pretty nice. One was a former Albertson's and the other was not.  I sometimes wish though a larger chain would buy up Homeland and actually put money into the currently neglected stores.


I have worked all three stores and while the former Albertsons are relatively nice, I can't portray 208 as anything but a dead store awaiting closing papers.  Edmond Homelands are suffering from terminal lack of volume, the lifeblood of any grocery store. 208 is as nasty a place as I have been, but is probably more healthy than the other two as the lease expense difference so it may outlast the others. They are currently suffering from the pissing contest to see who shares Edmonds' grocery future . There are actually three Edmond homelands, Bryant, Broadway n 208. Broadway was also a former Albersons, former corp homeland office, that rocked many moons ago. It has since contracted the same disease as the other two and I believe is the most likely be the first to fall.

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## Just the facts

> Originally Posted by Just the facts
> 
> 
> One of the biggest problems with the CityTarget concept is Wall Street.  The concept was launched in early 2012 and by mid-2012 the Wall Street analyst were already calling it a failure and of course, we know what happens to companies who don't increase their stock value every quarter.  Outside a few cities in the US urban living hasn't existed in any meaningful way for 50 years - and 6 months into rebuilding it one of the corporate pioneers is already taking the arrows.
> 
> 
> Who gives an F what these flipping vampires think?


I share your disdain - but what can you do when companies sell their souls to a master that measures success and failure in nano-seconds.  Look at our very own Chesapeake - 75% of the new CEO's income is tied directly to the stock price.

Couple that kind of corporate mentality with Oklahoma's liquor distribution laws and in the world of corporate grocery shopping Oklahoma is lucky to have a place to even buy groceries.  Why should a national company build better stores in Oklahoma when they can spend that same money in other states and make more money off it?  Oklahoma is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.  If you want better grocery stores, then allow the grocery chains to earn a higher return buy selling higher margin products.  You guys would wet your pants if you could shop at even an average Publix we enjoy here in Florida.

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## bchris02

> I have worked all three stores and while the former Albertsons are relatively nice, I can't portray 208 as anything but a dead store awaiting closing papers.  Edmond Homelands are suffering from terminal lack of volume, the lifeblood of any grocery store. 208 is as nasty a place as I have been, but is probably more healthy than the other two as the lease expense difference so it may outlast the others. They are currently suffering from the pissing contest to see who shares Edmonds' grocery future . There are actually three Edmond homelands, Bryant, Broadway n 208. Broadway was also a former Albersons, former corp homeland office, that rocked many moons ago. It has since contracted the same disease as the other two and I believe is the most likely be the first to fall.


I haven't been in 208, but the one on N Bryant has been remodeled similar to the N May/Britton flagship store. It would surprise me, as few stores as they actually put money into, they would close that one. 208 on the outside looks the worst of the three.

Unfortunately Wal-Mart will probably win out just like it has everywhere else in the metro area.

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## bchris02

> I share your disdain - but what can you do when companies sell their souls to a master that measures success and failure in nano-seconds.  Look at our very own Chesapeake - 75% of the new CEO's income is tied directly to the stock price.
> 
> Couple that kind of corporate mentality with Oklahoma's liquor distribution laws and in the world of corporate grocery shopping Oklahoma is lucky to have a place to even buy groceries.  Why should a national company build better stores in Oklahoma when they can spend that same money in other states and make more money off it?  Oklahoma is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.  If you want better grocery stores, then allow the grocery chains to earn a higher return buy selling higher margin products.  You guys would wet your pants if you could shop at even an average Publix we enjoy here in Florida.


Wal-Mart is the only national chain in OKC. Whole Foods and Sprouts are specialty so they don't count. For regular shopping, Albertson's was the last one left and Wal-Mart ran it out of town back in 2007. Liquor isn't the only reason grocery shopping in OKC is so dismal. It's because where else has Wal-Mart built such a high concentration of Supercenters and Neighborhood Markets? Others simply cannot compete.  In addition, Tulsa has Reasor's and Fresh Market and they are under the same liquor laws as OKC.

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## GaryOKC6

Wal-Mart is not the cheapest by far.  I live by the Belle Isle Wal-Mart and drive to buy for Less to buy groceries.  I am a very careful grocery shopper and know the prices of the items that I buy most.  When I am in Wal-Mart I notice that they are definitely higher.

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## Rover

> Wal-Mart is not the cheapest by far.  I live by the Belle Isle Wal-Mart and drive to buy for Less to buy groceries.  I am a very careful grocery shopper and know the prices of the items that I buy most.  When I am in Wal-Mart I notice that they are definitely higher.


I appreciate being a smart shopper, but this lowest price regardless mentality and practice in OKC is what lends companies to believe OKC will not support more up scale and full service businesses.  Many people buy on price only and don't recognize the differences in offerings or quality and view groceries (and clothes, and other consumer goods) as commodities only.

Until we consistently prove we will recognize and reward quality, the better retailers aren't coming in.  That is why the success of stores like Whole Foods is essential.

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## Rover

BTW, I am not saying WalMart is quality...far from it.

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## Spartan

Yeah, Wal-Mart is definitely not the cheapest. I find that up here Target is cheaper, and of course Trader Joe's simply can not be beat. That is what OKC needs to be in an uproar trying to get. TJ's has changed my life... that and the local indoor market which has the best fresh Amish cheese, bratwurst and other sausage varieties, corned beef, artisan bread, pierogies, etc. But TJ's is awesome, too.

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## kbsooner

> The problem with Wal-Mart is anything they build is always suburban in nature and given the track record in places like Bricktown, I doubt the city would force them to change their design.  Plus, fair or not, Wal-Mart has a stigma.


This is not wholly true. In the central US, yes, where land is ample and cheap.  They made a big push in Cali last year, and they are buying/leasing many old and empty retail spaces in semi dense neighborhoods.  That being said, I doubt the Downtown OKC area has enough density yet to make them take notice, but it could in a couple of years.  They are always playing with smaller concepts, article below is an excellent example.

UFCW 324

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## bluedogok

The WB Neighborhood Markets here have gone into former Albertson's stores. There are still three Albertson's that I know of here, one is the closest grocery store to our house in Aurora.

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## traxx

> A local alternative would be for Buy 4 Less to take their Uptown Grocery concept from Edmond to ... well, to town. The basic building design of the Edmond store would work very well in many locations but I think somewhere in Midtown would be great. Maybe on one of those huge open areas north of 10th?


I think this is an idea that hasn't gotten talked about enough. This would be perfect downtown. If you could just take the Edmond store, right click, copy, paste - it would fit in well downtown.

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## Praedura

> I think this is an idea that hasn't gotten talked about enough. This would be perfect downtown. If you could just take the Edmond store, right click, copy, paste - it would fit in well downtown.


Some photos, just for reference:

A rendering:




The real thing:

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## HangryHippo

What does the inside look like?

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## mkjeeves

My kids in Chicago use Peapod delivery a fair amount. (When they aren't shopping at whole foods.) I also see where Amazon is expanding their home grocery delivery too. Seems like a bizop for someone bullish on OKC downtown (if only short term until Amazon or a major player takes over the territory).

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## traxx

> What does the inside look like?


uptown grocery edmond - Bing Images

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## Praedura

> uptown grocery edmond - Bing Images


Yeah, based on those pics, I'd say it looks pretty nice inside.

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## CaptDave

> What does the inside look like?


One section looks like a conventional grocery store and the other side has a deli with prepared foods, large cheese bar, bakery, and small cafe area. Kind of like a smaller reasonably priced WF.

Thanks for posting the photos Traxx - I thought about doing it after realizing many people may not have seen Uptown.

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## HangryHippo

Impressive.  Looks like it'd be a great fit downtown.

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## bchris02

Uptown Grocery is the kind of store that is the standard in most cities. Crest Fresh Market is a similar concept though not quite as upscale in appearance. I would love for both of these Oklahoma companies - Crest and Buy 4 Less to build several more stores in the metro to finally challenge Wal-Mart's dominance and to force Homeland to compete or go out of business.

Uptown Grocety would be perfect for downtown.

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## Pete

While we wait for Uptown and perhaps Sprouts downtown, I wanted to point out a few things...

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the Homeland at 18th and Classen isn't that bad.  Far, far better than not having that store at all and since I'll be living in SoSA, it will be my go-to store.

But there are actually quite a few food stores in downtown nobody talks about.  In addition to the awesome Native Roots, there is also now a pretty good home delivery service.

Also, while not glamorous, there is a Family Dollar at 11th & Classen that I can and have walked to.  I was pretty darn surprised to find out how much food they carry, both packaged stuff and a large frozen section.  They also have tons of sundries and drug store type stuff and most the big brand names.  I had never in my life been in a dollar store but was pleasantly surprised.  I'll walk over there a lot to get a small item when needed.   There is another on 23rd near Robinson.

I guarantee that Family Dollar on Classen will get tons of business once the neighboring LIFT and Frank apartments open for business.  It's darn handy.

There is also a Circle K in Bricktown, a Shell station at 6th & Walker and the Downtown Market on Broadway just north of the Buick Building.  And a 7-11 at 10th & Western.


There are simply more options than apparent.  Even if a Sprouts opened at 4th & EKG and/or an Uptown Market opened in Midtown, I'd still walk to Family Dollar or even that Shell station for little things.

Considering most people living downtown are just one or two people in a household, you simply don't need a huge grocery store most the time.

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## bchris02

CVS at Classen and 23rd also has quite a few basics.

I haven't been in them, but there are a few Asian supermarkets in the Asian district.  I am not sure how much regular food they sell but I know they at least have produce.

Uptown Grocery in Midtown will be amazing and hopefully it happens sooner rather than later.  If not, hopefully the rumor of Homeland upgrading their Classen store pans out.

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## Pete

I don't think many people are walking to that CVS or Walgreens at 23rd & Classen.

However, especially after LIFT and the Frank open, you can bet lots of people will be walking to that Family Dollar.  It's a nice little amenity for that area and I'm darn glad it's there.

I can also ride my bike to the Homeland.

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## sooner88

> CVS at Classen and 23rd also has quite a few basics.
> 
> I haven't been in them, but there are a few Asian supermarkets in the Asian district.  I am not sure how much regular food they sell but I know they at least have produce.
> 
> Uptown Grocery in Midtown will be amazing and hopefully it happens sooner rather than later.  If not, hopefully the rumor of Homeland upgrading their Classen store pans out.


Super Cao Nguyen is great for produce, seafood (haven't bought chicken, beef, etc.) and has tons of other groceries, Asian or otherwise. A lot of restaurants buy from them, so you can buy in bulk sizes if you need to.

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## zookeeper

> I don't think many people are walking to that CVS or Walgreens at 23rd & Classen.
> 
> However, especially after LIFT and the Frank open, *you can bet lots of people will be walking to that Family Dollar.  It's a nice little amenity for that area and I'm darn glad it's there.*
> 
> I can also ride my bike to the Homeland.


Family Dollar is a guilty pleasure of mine. I love that store and I think some of it has to do with its layout reminding me of TG&Y. It's also a very handy store to have close by as they really do have a little of everything.

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## Pete

There is also something called the Nutritional Food Center on the SE corner of 10th & Classen.

In one of my many walks, I checked it out because I had no idea what was inside.

Simply put, it was the most shockingly depressing food store I have ever seen.

They are in the process of consolidating to the northern half of the building but even with that the place looked like a Russian supermarket, the shelves were so bare.

The floor was this nasty old carpet that was tattered and bunched up and the whole place smelled off.

In talking to the woman working there, it's been owned by the same family for quite a while and they also own the building they occupy and the land to the south.  An enterprising developer could buy them out and do something great there.  I've never quite seen anything like that place and of course, there was absolutely no one else in there the entire time.

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## zookeeper

> There is also something called the Nutritional Food Center on the SE corner of 10th & Classen.
> 
> In one of my many walks, I checked it out because I had no idea what was inside.
> 
> Simply put, it was the most shockingly depressing food store I have ever seen.
> 
> They are in the process of consolidating to the northern half of the building but even with that the place looked like a Russian supermarket, the shelves were so bare.
> 
> The floor was this nasty old carpet that was tattered and bunched up and the whole place smelled off.
> ...


Oh, yes. They've had it since the '50s. It was once the premier vitamin shop/health store in Oklahoma City. I remember they had a cardboard Jack LaLane in a display selling his products that tied into his TV show. It wasn't run down then, but it's always had an old-time feeling.

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## Pete

> Family Dollar is a guilty pleasure of mine. I love that store and I think some of it has to do with its layout reminding me of TG&Y. It's also a very handy store to have close by as they really do have a little of everything.


Haha...  It IS like a TG&Y!  I hadn't thought of that.

CVS and Walgreens are like modern day versions of TG&Y but Family Dollar is more like the old school version.  A little of everything packed in tight on cheap shelving and usually pretty messy.


When I was last in town, I really needed some Advil and it was a great pleasure to walk through SoSA to that store and get exactly what I needed in no time flat, and for a decent price -- much better than a convenience store.  I can see doing that sort of thing often and it's a million times easier than jumping in your car, parking, dealing with a big store and the inevitable check out lines...  All for just a thing or two.

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## chuck5815

it would be amazing if the CBD could get a concept like Cosentinos. the one in downtown KC strikes the perfect balance between prepared food and generic grocery items. 

Downtown | Cosentino's

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## soonermike81

> it would be amazing if the CBD could get a concept like Cosentinos. the one in downtown KC strikes the perfect balance between prepared food and generic grocery items. 
> 
> Downtown | Cosentino's


Yes, something like this would be awesome.  Seems very similar to Jimmy's Food Store in Dallas.  Many grocery items, but a huge deli for prepared foods as well.  Some of the sandwiches at Jimmy's are amazing!

https://www.jimmysfoodstore.com/

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## Brett

> Yes, something like this would be awesome.  Seems very similar to Jimmy's Food Store in Dallas.  Many grocery items, but a huge deli for prepared foods as well.  Some of the sandwiches at Jimmy's are amazing!
> 
> https://www.jimmysfoodstore.com/


I can vouch that Jimmy's hot Italian beef sandwiches are excellent.

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## soonermike81

> I can vouch that Jimmy's hot Italian beef sandwiches are excellent.


MMMM, with hot giardiniera! Closest thing I could find in Dallas to an actual Chicago Italian Beef sandwich.

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## Jessica N

Hi All - I received an email earlier this week informing me that representatives from Homeland would like community help completing the survey linked below in order to gain insight on how to make the Homeland at Classen and 18th more enjoyable to shoppers. 

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Homeland153

Please, please, please take the survey so that Homeland can capture our feedback and strive to better provide for the community's needs. Feel free to pass along the link as well!

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## Canoe

Done. Thank you for the link.

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## Pete

Thanks for that!

I completed the survey.

This is a good sign!

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## bchris02

I filled it out as well.  Hopefully a renovation ends up happening!

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## ljbab728

Surely they have to understand that, if they are ever going to consider upgrading that store, it needs to be done before another one opens up anywhere in the downtown area.

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## HangryHippo

Yep.  If a Sprouts pops up along Broadway or in Midtown, they're going to kill it and that Homeland will be in trouble.

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## no1cub17

I would just as soon that Homeland close down and a larger grocer move into midtown/AA/DD (but hopefully not at the expense of Native Roots!). That land (and parking lot) could be developed into a mixed use development that would be of far more benefit to everyone. Fantastic location so close to both midtown and plaza district.

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## bchris02

Steve posted this yesterday on his twitter.

"Downtown thinks it wants a Whole Foods. It needs an Uptown Market for Crest Foods. Locally owned better selections great service, pharmacies"

I agree with this and thing a mainline supermarket like Uptown Grocery or Crest Foods (conformed to urban standards) would be more beneficial than a Whole Foods.

A lot of people responded to their tweet saying that OKC doesn't need a supermarket downtown and instead should shoot for bodega-style corner stores.  They said a full supermarket would simply make downtown more auto-centric.  Personally I don't agree with this.

1) How can you get more auto-centric than the current situation where you have to drive from downtown out to NW Expressway for a quality grocer?

2) I don't believe OKC's population density is near high enough for bodega-style grocery shopping to work here.  I could be wrong on that though.  I think a supermarket within the next five years would be preferable to waiting 15-20 years for population density to reach the needed point for bodega-style shopping.

A supermarket also doesn't need to be in downtown proper to serve the downtown market.  An Uptown Grocery or Crest in Midtown, on 23rd, or on Classen would be a huge step forward for the entire urban core.  Broadway might also be a good location north of Automobile Alley headed towards 23rd.

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## LakeEffect

I thought his tweet and basis of analysis was odd. If local = better selections/great service, then I'd be shopping at the Homeland at 18th & Classen every time we needed groceries... Whole Foods has fantastic service and I like their selection. Rarely do they NOT have something we need.

He's got a point on the pharmacy angle though.

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## bchris02

> I thought his tweet and basis of analysis was odd. If local = better selections/great service, then I'd be shopping at the Homeland at 18th & Classen every time we needed groceries... Whole Foods has fantastic service and I like their selection. Rarely do they NOT have something we need.
> 
> He's got a point on the pharmacy angle though.


Homeland is a very, very poorly run local grocer though.  If OKC had Reasor's instead, people wouldn't have the same complaints.  Local doesn't always equal better, but I believe the newer Crests and Uptown Market stores can hold their own against the nice mainline grocery stores common in other cities.

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## Pete

There is a pharmacy at Homeland, St. Anthony Hospital, and Walgreens and CVS at 23rd and Classen.

What we don't have is a full-service, quality grocery store.

I don't think anyone gives a flip if it's local or not, just like a CVS or Walgreens would be warmly welcomed in the heart of downtown.

People living down here would do cartwheels for Trader Joe's, Sprouts or Whole Foods.

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## bchris02

> There is a pharmacy at Homeland, St. Anthony Hospital, and Walgreens and CVS at 23rd and Classen.
> 
> What we don't have is a full-service, quality grocery store.
> 
> I don't think anyone gives a flip if it's local or not, just like a CVS or Walgreens would be warmly welcomed in the heart of downtown.
> 
> People living down here would do cartwheels for Trader Joe's, Sprouts or Whole Foods.


Looking at some of the old posts on this board, people were saying the same things 10 years ago in regards to a grocery store downtown.  It's hard to believe we are almost in 2016 and with all the development over the past decade downtown that a grocery store has not been part of the equation.

Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, or Sprouts would all be very welcome additions to downtown as would Uptown Market or Crest.  At this point, I would even support a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market as long as it conformed to urban standards.

----------


## Pete

An urban Braum's would be awesome but that's never going to happen.

I'd settle for a renovation of their Classen location, which is every bit as bad as the Homeland across the street.

----------


## catch22

> BTW, who is Steve to speak for what downtown 'needs' vs. what it 'think it wants'?
> 
> He lives in far north OKC.
> 
> Good grief.


Downtown needs: reliable hours, consistent pricing, predictable product options, a clean shopping experience.

If that is Crest.. Fine. If that is Whole Foods.. Fine. If that is a renovated and upgraded Homeland... Fine. But the bottom line is someone needs to step up and provide a clean grocery store with consistent hours and predictable products and pricing.

----------


## Anonymous.

Honestly I would rather a CVS or Walgreens than Wholefoods.

I want somewhere I can buy toothpaste, sunscreen, batteries. Random things that you would wish you could run down the street and get.

----------


## bchris02

> Honestly I would rather a CVS or Walgreens than Wholefoods.
> 
> I want somewhere I can buy toothpaste, sunscreen, batteries. Random things that you would wish you could run down the street and get.


When I was in Dallas a couple of weekends ago, I saw this development and thought it would be perfect somewhere in OKC.  It's also of a scale and scope appropriate for a city the size of OKC.  I don't see why a development like this couldn't be built.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

> Honestly I would rather a CVS or Walgreens than Wholefoods.
> 
> I want somewhere I can buy toothpaste, sunscreen, batteries. Random things that you would wish you could run down the street and get.


When there was rumblings of a CVS going into the Oklahoma new building I was so excited. Then nothing..

----------


## bchris02

> When there was rumblings of a CVS going into the Oklahoma new building I was so excited. Then nothing..


Yeah they pulled out because there are not enough rooftops.

I wonder how many rooftops are needed downtown to be enough?  Downtown Norman for crying out lout has a Sprouts and a CVS.

----------


## MagzOK

Whoever lives in the downtown area, I recommend hand-writing different companies corporate customer service departments and ask them your questions.  Include different corners and intersections you think one of their stores would go well on.  When I was 13 my family moved to Dallas from Midland and the nearest grocery was miles from our new house.  I wrote letters to three major grocers in the city suggesting the corner at the mile closest to our house.  I received three packets back, one from each, with explanations as to why the location wouldn't work and/or why they put their stores where they do.  Albertson's sent me a bunch of stuff including maps of the city where they were looking to expand, etc.  I know this was years ago, but handwritten still goes a lot further than electronic to some companies.  You may find out just why nobody has moved into the downtown area.

----------


## Spartan

> Looking at some of the old posts on this board, people were saying the same things 10 years ago in regards to a grocery store downtown.  It's hard to believe we are almost in 2016 and with all the development over the past decade downtown that a grocery store has not been part of the equation


Yup. Very little has changed all along regarding the downtown discussion. These old ideas keep cycling back around, too..

----------


## Pete

> Honestly I would rather a CVS or Walgreens than Wholefoods.
> 
> I want somewhere I can buy toothpaste, sunscreen, batteries. Random things that you would wish you could run down the street and get.


The Family Dollar at 11th & Classen serves that purpose for me.  They have a little of everything and I can walk from my place.

----------


## bchris02

> Yup. Very little has changed all along regarding the downtown discussion. These old ideas keep cycling back around, too..


At least downtown is getting more quality developments now.  In 2006, it was pretty much all centered around Hogan's Lower Bricktown and some were giving up hope of OKC ever having an urban downtown.  Back then, Midtown and the Plaza weren't the vibrant nightlife areas they have become and 23rd St was a place you still didn't want to walk around at night. Today things are looking a lot brighter.  Still, as much that has changed, there is much that hasn't, this being one of them.

Hopefully by 2020 this discussion regarding grocery stores will be nothing but a memory.

----------


## tfvc.org

From what I remember of visiting DC and San Fran where they have such a large downtown like area I remember grocery stores, drug stores, and even Whole Foods having locations in regular tower like buildings, some stores were even 2-3 stories worth of storefront if the buildings were smaller than their usual footprint.  In Spain there is a shopping cart design where the wheels will lock into a flat escalator to keep it from rolling down the steep ramp up.  It isn't a matter of finding a location or getting them into an otherwise smaller footprint building, it is convincing them that an urban location is a profitable one.

----------


## Dustin

A Homeland like the one on Britton and May would kill downtown.  

BTW, they've remodeled again and it's fantastic.  It's mostly the produce department and they put in new coolers with doors like in the freezer section so the produce stays fresh longer.  I really liked that addition.

They are definitely preparing for battle with Uptown.

----------


## bchris02

> A Homeland like the one on Britton and May would kill downtown.  
> 
> BTW, they've remodeled again and it's fantastic.  It's mostly the produce department and they put in new coolers with doors like in the freezer section so the produce stays fresh longer.  I really liked that addition.
> 
> They are definitely preparing for battle with Uptown.


It wouldn't surprise me if Homeland announces an upgrade at its 18th and Classen store as soon as a new grocer is announced and not a moment sooner.  Homeland seems to work that way, with their remodel at 122nd and Rockwell being a response to the new Sprouts at 122nd and MacArthur.  

That is unless their long-term plan is to do away with the 18th and Classen location.

----------


## Brett

Now that Boulevard Cafeteria has closed, it would be awesome if the existing building could be renovated into a Trader Joes or Sprouts.

----------


## bchris02

> Now that Boulevard Cafeteria has closed, it would be awesome if the existing building could be renovated into a Trader Joes or Sprouts.


I would rather see the existing building torn down and something new built that conformed to urban standards.  The Boulevard Cafeteria building is not architecture worth saving and it is not urban.  Plus, I don't think its big enough for a full-sized market. I do like the idea though of a grocery store on that lot.

----------


## sooner88

What is the typical sf for a Trader Joes? Boulevard is a little over 11,000 sf. I've never been in so I have no idea if the layout, etc would work for a grocery store renovation.

----------


## DenverPoke

> From what I remember of visiting DC and San Fran where they have such a large downtown like area I remember grocery stores, drug stores, and even Whole Foods having locations in regular tower like buildings, some stores were even 2-3 stories worth of storefront if the buildings were smaller than their usual footprint.  In Spain there is a shopping cart design where the wheels will lock into a flat escalator to keep it from rolling down the steep ramp up.  It isn't a matter of finding a location or getting them into an otherwise smaller footprint building, it is convincing them that an urban location is a profitable one.


Agree with this.  Most chains won't even consider a location until X number of bodies live within a certain radius.   Downtown Denver struggled for years to get a grocery store to consider a location near the CBD. King Soopers only opened earlier this year (a Whole Foods is also currently under construction) and it has taken the recent boom of over 12,000 new units since 2011 in the core to get to the number of bodies they felt comfortable with.

----------


## bchris02

> Agree with this.  Most chains won't even consider a location until X number of bodies live within a certain radius.   Downtown Denver struggled for years to get a grocery store to consider a location near the CBD. King Soopers only opened earlier this year (a Whole Foods is also currently under construction) and it has taken the recent boom of over 12,000 new units since 2011 in the core to get to the number of bodies they felt comfortable with.


This is true, and why I think at the current time, OKC's best bet is something in Midtown or even a little farther north.  Heritage HIlls/Mesta Park surely has enough rooftops to make a grocer viable.  Remember that today, there really aren't any good options in the core south of NW Expressway.  A quality grocer on Classen or 23rd with easy access from Midtown or downtown would be a huge success.

I think a true downtown grocer in the CBD or in Bricktown is still a ways off.

----------


## oklip955

What I don't understand is why Walmart Neighborhood is not considering building one in the downtown/Uptown area. It seems that they keep building them so close to their other stores that they are robbing customers from their own nearby stores. I know everyone wants a more up scale store but at least the Walmart would be an up grade over the 18th st Homeland. It would be a good test to see if the area could support a more upscale store. I think that if it were built, the Homeland store would close. (hum maybe a Sprouts would take over the location)

----------


## bchris02

> What I don't understand is why Walmart Neighborhood is not considering building one in the downtown/Uptown area. It seems that they keep building them so close to their other stores that they are robbing customers from their own nearby stores. I know everyone wants a more up scale store but at least the Walmart would be an up grade over the 18th st Homeland. It would be a good test to see if the area could support a more upscale store. I think that if it were built, the Homeland store would close. (hum maybe a Sprouts would take over the location)


As long as they built it to urban standards I could accept this.  I don't want Wal-Mart to build its standard big-box format with its sea of surface parking in the middle of downtown or one of OKC's urban districts.

Other cities have shown that Wal-Mart can do good urbanism when they are forced to.

----------


## oklip955

If Walmart can make money , they can put a few more dollars up front on the store. Same on the Sprouts. They spent a few bucks just to make the 2nd st store in Edmond work. The building was in bad shape. Yah, its not fancy but it works for Edmond. They built the store in Owasso from the ground up. If they took over the 18th st location I would think that they could doze it and start over and have a better store and less headaches.

----------


## bchris02

Any of these would be very welcome downtown.







I would be STRONGLY opposed to this...

----------


## onthestrip

The economics simply dont work. And unless the city subsidizes rent or a parking structure, we wont be seeing a grocer downtown soon. There is no large enough space that can charge a low enough rent that grocers are used to paying and still have the land to provide parking for shoppers. It just doesnt add up. For a developer to build a space and provide parking, they would have to get triple or more the rent grocery stores typically pay. And no grocery store will take that risk at this time.

DT residents will just have to utilize Native Roots, Family Dollar, Braums, and Homeland for their food needs.

----------


## bchris02

> The economics simply dont work. And unless the city subsidizes rent or a parking structure, we wont be seeing a grocer downtown soon. There is no large enough space that can charge a low enough rent that grocers are used to paying and still have the land to provide parking for shoppers. It just doesnt add up. For a developer to build a space and provide parking, they would have to get triple or more the rent grocery stores typically pay. And no grocery store will take that risk at this time.
> 
> DT residents will just have to utilize Native Roots, Family Dollar, Braums, and Homeland for their food needs.


In the CBD, Bricktown, and Deep Deuce, I agree.  Like Denver, I think OKC will need 12,000+ new units before a grocer will consider locating in one of these areas.

However, I don't think its economically unfeasible on 23rd St or on Classen or even on Broadway north of 10th.  The right property in Midtown might also be a candidate if the grocer can be a part of a larger mixed-use development.

To put it into perspective, Tulsa has this proposed downtown and they have less rooftops and less development overall than is happening in OKC.



Of course, this development may be in question due to oil prices but to get far enough along to produce this rendering is a sign they have confidence.  Why couldn't something like this work in OKC?

----------


## bchris02

With this development in Tulsa moving forward, is there any hope for a similar development in OKC, even if on a smaller scale?

Development Plans Advance For Downtown Tulsa Parking Lot - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com |

I really think this is the most exciting development currently happening in the state.  It's going to completely change downtown Tulsa.  I wish something similar would be proposed here.

----------


## Just the facts

Funny we have millions to subsidize multi-million dollar corporations along Memorial, but no money to help establish a downtown grocery store.  Priorities I guess.

----------


## bchris02

> Funny we have millions to subsidize multi-million dollar corporations along Memorial, but no money to help establish a downtown grocery store.  Priorities I guess.


What's interesting is that grocers keep saying there aren't enough rooftops in downtown OKC to support a grocery store.  Tulsa on the other hand has even less rooftops in its downtown proper and has a lot more solid grocery stores in its urban core to compete with than OKC does, and Reasor's thinks this is viable.  If Tulsa is ready for this development, OKC is more than ready for something similar downtown, especially considering it wouldn't have any real competition south of NW 50th.

----------


## Pete

^

The difference is that Reasor's is local in Tulsa and this is probably about doing something for downtown rather than purely profit motivated.  It's not a national chain making all their decisions off demographic printouts and by people sitting in some corporate office stacking up the likely profits against hundreds of other potential locations.

The only real local in OKC that is likely to do something similar is Uptown and I think that will happen, just in a couple of years.

----------


## Pete

> Funny we have millions to subsidize multi-million dollar corporations along Memorial, but no money to help establish a downtown grocery store.  Priorities I guess.


Somebody has to apply first.

And BTW, there are tons of subsidies in downtown OKC, so I don't understand your point.  Far, far more than a few out on Memorial Road.

----------


## Swake

> ^
> 
> The difference is that Reasor's is local in Tulsa and this is probably about doing something for downtown rather than purely profit motivated.  It's not a national chain making all their decisions off demographic printouts and by people sitting in some corporate office stacking up the likely profits against hundreds of other potential locations.
> 
> The only real local in OKC that is likely to do something similar is Uptown and I think that will happen, just in a couple of years.


Reasors may also be protecting their turf a bit as they already are the downtown grocery store with their location a mile and a half from downtown in Cherry Street. Opening one actually in downtown stops anyone else from doing it and protects their market share.

And this is years away from happening too. The View, The Edge and Sante Fe Square are all much further along and will all be completed before this project and that's almost 1,000 new units within a few blocks of this proposed store.

----------


## Spartan

> Somebody has to apply first.
> 
> And BTW, there are tons of subsidies in downtown OKC, so I don't understand your point.  Far, far more than a few out on Memorial Road.


I'm confused. We've made TIF available as an option for gap financing, primarily to cover required structured parking downtown.

We have more than just TIF available for retail on West I-40, Memorial Road, and I-240. Same for the Kings Crossing on MLK. Those are all strip malls and we never really ask for anything in exchange for the subsidy - certainly never any design/plan improvements. 

We don't really do retail subsidies downtown. The retail that we have is comprised mostly of locally-owned shops that organically congregated around 9th and Broadway, and NW 16th Street. The ones directly on Broadway have maybe taken advantage of the city's neon sign program, but that's all I can think of for which they may qualify.

What are you talking about? Is there some additional retail effort that I'm not aware of? All I can think of is Bass Pro, which I guess counts. The city's basically doing that for Cabela's.

----------


## Pete

^

Re-read Kerry's post then mine.


Regarding strictly retail subsidies, the only I am aware of on Memorial road are Cabela's and Von Maur.

Downtown, we gave a big subsidy to Bass Pro and the entire Lower Bricktown development.  And the Criterion is getting incentives and so is Steelyard and it's 10,000 SF of retail space.

----------


## Just the facts

Did the Criterion and Steelyard get a cash subsidy or loans?  I honestly don't remember.

----------


## Pete

> Did the Criterion and Steelyard get a cash subsidy or loans?  I honestly don't remember.


Cash (TIF).

And Steelyard got preferential price on buying land.

----------


## Spartan

What incentives are Criterion and Steelyard getting? From the city. I know DEQ chipped in a brownfields grant, and I think HUD has a piece of it. I read that it was NSP, so while that would be directed by the city, it would be for an inclusionary affordable housing component, and not for retail.

edit: Well the land deal was typical of an OCURA bid.

----------


## Pete

^

TIF cash.

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## bchris02

Per Steve's twitter, it looks like a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market may be headed for downtown.

Pete, do you have any insight into this?  Wal-Mart can build high-quality urban stores as they have in other cities but the question is, will they in OKC?  I think if they plan on putting in a standard suburban big box like they have all over the suburbs here it should be fought, regardless of how bad downtown OKC needs a full-service grocery store.

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## hfry

Bchris I understand your concern with Walmart mucking this up by judging by Steves story from last Friday on the urban neighborhood Walmart he was in in Arkansas it was obvious this was being looked at. My guess is it's the land on Broadway where the RFP will be issued or over in the Halls 21c district. 
If I remember the article right he was in Arkansa to see a 21c hotel and the Walmart was in a development close to it so the connection to here could make sense.

----------


## bchris02

> Bchris I understand your concern with Walmart mucking this up by judging by Steves story from last Friday on the urban neighborhood Walmart he was in in Arkansas it was obvious this was being looked at. My guess is it's the land on Broadway where the RFP will be issued or over in the Halls 21c district. 
> If I remember the article right he was in Arkansa to see a 21c hotel and the Walmart was in a development close to it so the connection to here could make sense.


If it's going to be implemented as part of the Hall Capital complex, that could be really good.  Something like this would be great.



Let's hope this is what ends up happening, or worst case something like this.



THIS should be fought tooth and nail if proposed.

----------


## bchris02

This makes me feel a lot better.  Didn't see this article when he published it.  If this is what is being proposed, it will be a win.  I dislike Wal-Mart, but in terms of a full grocery store, there aren't any other big chains with deep pockets in OKC and it seems like the local grocers i.e. Uptown want to wait a while before opening downtown considering the lower number of rooftops and higher costs of building an urban store.

http://newsok.com/article/5494918?ut...gn=NIC-Twitter

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## no1cub17

This would be a real shame. Why does everyone act like we don't have a grocery store downtown? Has no one here heard of Native Roots?

----------


## bchris02

> This would be a real shame. Why does everyone act like we don't have a grocery store downtown? Has no one here heard of Native Roots?


I would hate to see them go out of business, but it may be inevitable.  Their selection is just too limited for most people to rely on them as their primary grocery store and as soon as something with a wider selection opens up, they might be in trouble if they don't adapt.  I think a Wal-Mart over by the 21c would have negligible effect on Native Roots as it would be far enough away and they serve different markets.  An Uptown Grocery in Midtown or Sprouts at 4th and EKG would be bad news for them however.

----------


## Urbanized

> ... If I remember the article right he was in Arkansa to see a 21c hotel and the Walmart was in a development close to it so the connection to here could make sense.


It was a ULI peer city trip. 21c in Bentonville happened to be where we stayed, but it was not the focus of the trip, nor was Walmart. The trip involved a number of downtown OKC's prominent developers and real estate brokers; people whose developments dominate the discussions in this forum. You can see the details of the trip here: http://oklahoma.uli.org/event/nw-ark...eer-city-trip/

Several of the people on the trip did acknowledge that Wal-Mart has shown considerable interest in downtown OKC recently, and there was some discussion among the group as to whether it would be more good than bad if it happened.

There was evidence in Bentonville that Wal-Mart is focusing on urban centers as their last remaining expansion frontier, and that the company (and the Walton family) were working to overcome its legacy as a town destroyer and re-cast as a city BUILDER, with a focus on quality urban stores that encourage the success of other businesses around them. A number have been built with structured or very limited parking. The keynote even included images of a DC Wal-Mart with ZERO parking. Not to say that would (or should) happen here; only that it shows a their level of commitment to urban development.

Part of our session was in an Arvest conference center directly across the street from an urban grocery store that was about as nice as any grocery I've been in. It wasn't an especially large store, but the selection and configuration were top-notch, and even included a great number of organic products. I think the entire group was impressed, but of course we also all realized this was in the company's hometown. Also worth noting was that there were few customers when we were there.

As an old Main Street Program manager, I remain highly skeptical of Wal-Mart. I'm concerned about their tendency to quickly and completely abandon efforts based on spreadsheets. But I WILL say that if the store we saw in Bentonville was plopped in downtown OKC - and Wal-Mart remained fully committed to it - it would be about as good as anything else we can imagine, and in many cases better. And, as was pointed out by a few on the trip, it is far more realistic and attainable in the near future than something like a City Target, Whole Foods, or perhaps even Uptown Market.

----------


## David

I remember seeing pictures of that D.C. Walmart posted in a discussion here a few years back, and thinking that it at least wouldn't be a bad solution at all.

To say that we're a heavy market for Walmart would be an understatement, maybe that could work in our favor for once if we ended up with a properly urban variety downtown.

----------


## hfry

Thanks Urbandized! Sounds like a great trip and I remain skeptical but hopefully they can do a store right downtown. For as heavily populated with Walmart as the city is I think it's the least they can do is give downtown an ideal urban store for the growing number of residents.

----------


## zefferoni

When I visited Chicago a couple years ago I was impressed by the Target downtown.  I don't know where something like it could fit in downtown OKC, but I think something like that would be fantastic.

----------


## Pete

> I think a Wal-Mart over by the 21c would have negligible effect on Native Roots as it would be far enough away and they serve different markets.  An Uptown Grocery in Midtown or Sprouts at 4th and EKG would be bad news for them however.


Where are you getting that Walmart is interested in the area around 21c?

----------


## Roger S

> Where are you getting that Walmart is interested in the area around 21c?


See Post #104

----------


## Pete

If Walmart goes downtown, I would expect them to not be on the west side / 21c area just because they have a Neighborhood Market at NW 23rd & Penn.

Just my gut as a former broker to retail tenants.

I suspect they would strongly prefer 4th & EKG, as that would also catch a ton of people on their way out of downtown after work.  Pretty much everyone working downtown and working in North OKC and Edmond head out that direction and it gets tons of evening rush hour traffic as a result.

Also, it would be on the streetcar line and within walking distance of the biggest concentration of housing units in all of downtown:  Deep Deuce.

----------


## HangryHippo

> If Walmart goes downtown, I would expect them to not be on the west side / 21c area just because they have a Neighborhood Market at NW 23rd & Penn.
> 
> Just my gut as a former broker to retail tenants.
> 
> I suspect they would strong prefer 4th & EKG, as that would also catch a ton of people on their way out of downtown out of work.  Pretty much everyone working downtown and working in North OKC and Edmond head out that direction and it gets tons of evening rush hour traffic as a result.
> 
> Also, it would be on the streetcar line and within walking distance of the biggest concentration of housing units in all of downtown:  Deep Deuce.


As a former broker to retail tenants, what does your gut tell you about this being part of the possible midrise development you've heard about for this site perhaps as the ground floor retail?

----------


## Teo9969

I wonder if a Wal-Mart could actually HELP Native Roots? With a Wal-Mart in the area, Native Roots could give up on trying to carry something in every cateogry and begin to focus on what is legitimately Wal-Mart's biggest grocery failure: Produce. If I lived downtown and had a choice between the 2 of the places, I'd buy my drinks, my cereals, my non perishibles etc etc etc. @ Wal-Mart and I'd buy my Asparagus, Rib-eye, Chicken and Deli meats at Native Roots.

----------


## bchris02

> I wonder if a Wal-Mart could actually HELP Native Roots? With a Wal-Mart in the area, Native Roots could give up on trying to carry something in every cateogry and begin to focus on what is legitimately Wal-Mart's biggest grocery failure: Produce. If I lived downtown and had a choice between the 2 of the places, I'd buy my drinks, my cereals, my non perishibles etc etc etc. @ Wal-Mart and I'd buy my Asparagus, Rib-eye, Chicken and Deli meats at Native Roots.


Great points.

Native Roots should focus on what it does well: produce and deli.  If they adapt and do that, I believe they can survive. In a space that small, focusing on their specialty is their only path forward as they wont be able to compete with a supermarket as a general purpose grocer.

----------


## Pete

> As a former broker to retail tenants, what does your gut tell you about this being part of the possible midrise development you've heard about for this site perhaps as the ground floor retail?


From the beginning, I had heard Land Run and Mark Ruffin were planning a significant retail component to their development and that's what I'm still hearing.

It really does make sense at that location, with residential and/or office in a mid-rise structure above or directly adjacent.

If I was a grocer, that is where I would want to be downtown for all the reasons I mentioned.

----------


## HangryHippo

> From the beginning, I had heard Land Run and Mark Ruffin were planning a significant retail component to their development and that's what I'm still hearing.
> 
> It really does make sense at that location, with residential and/or office in a mid-rise structure above or directly adjacent.
> 
> If I was a grocer, that is where I would want to be downtown for all the reasons I mentioned.


That's awesome.  I understand the concerns surrounding Walmart, but we need something like this to show it can be done successfully.  Others will take the leap once someone else does.

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## bchris02

Here's Steve's article on it.

http://newsok.com/making-a-market-in...rticle/5495604

----------


## Anonymous.

> Reveal the retailer is Walmart, however, and the response is far less embracing. When I asked hypothetically if readers would welcome Walmart or wait another few years for a different option, more than half of those responding on Twitter said they'd prefer to wait.


I read a lot of those FB comments and Twitter comments. And I would bet more than half of them are from people who don't live downtown. Instead, they are suburbanites jumping on the bandwagon of anti-walmart establishments.

Downtown OKC is ready for this. I hope they don't let suburban background noise contaminate their plans.

----------


## checkthat

> I read a lot of those FB comments and Twitter comments. And I would bet more than half of them are from people who don't live downtown. Instead, they are suburbanites jumping on the bandwagon of anti-walmart establishments.
> 
> Downtown OKC is ready for this. I hope they don't let suburban background noise contaminate their plans.


Heh, yeah, Walmart is great...as long as the downtown workers don't try to unionize:

http://fortune.com/2015/04/20/walmar...ings-plumbing/

----------


## Pete

One of the best things about a WNH for downtown is that they carry lots of household products and sundries, much more than a typical grocery store and way, way more than a place like Sprouts.  And of course, at very good prices.

I prefer to spend my money elsewhere but if there was a good Neighborhood Market downtown I'd shop there all the time, just like I now use Sam's quite a bit as there is no Costco for my bulk dog food and a handful of other items.  And frankly, the Sam's at 39th & May is completely fine and I'm not missing Costco nearly as much as I thought I would.

And I'd certainly rather than give my money than to the Homeland on Classen, as every time I shop there (and it still is my go-to) I feel like I'm enabling them and working against getting a much better option in the core.

----------


## Martin

i generally choose not to shop at anything wal-mart but if they're willing to invest in serving the downtown community where others can't/won't, then more power to them. -M

----------


## Pete

> i generally choose not to shop at anything wal-mart but if they're willing to invest in serving the downtown community where others can't/won't, then more power to them. -M


I feel the same way about the Sam's at 39th & May.

I've been using that location a lot and ditto for the Lowe's just to the south.

----------


## Pete

> i generally choose not to shop at anything wal-mart but if they're willing to invest in serving the downtown community where others can't/won't, then more power to them. -M


I feel the same way about the Sam's at 39th & May.

I've been using that location a lot and ditto for the Lowe's just to the south.

----------


## bchris02

> i generally choose not to shop at anything wal-mart but if they're willing to invest in serving the downtown community where others can't/won't, then more power to them. -M


As long as they build to urban standards, I am fine with it.   I dislike that it's going to be Wal-Mart, but they are currently the only player in the OKC grocery market with deep enough pockets to take the risk on moving downtown right now.  Downtown OKC probably isn't ready for a CityTarget yet and stores like Crest and Uptown seem to be more focused on suburban expansion at the moment.  Homeland is stagnant.  Wal-Mart has some decent stores in other markets where they have done their best to compliment the community rather than work against it.   That's my biggest beef with Wal-Mart, especially the way they have operated in the OKC market, but if they are willing to do this store differently, it could be a great thing.  From everything I've seen posted on here from Pete and otherwise, anything else in terms of a full supermarket downtown would be around 3-5 years away.  Having a supermarket downtown sooner than that would be a huge benefit and may also spur more growth downtown as they would no longer have to drive so far for basic goods.

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## OKCPetro83

I think it should only be approved if it is built to an urban standard. If they want their standard big box store, tell them to take a hike.

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## DenverPoke

> As long as they build to urban standards, I am fine with it.   I dislike that it's going to be Wal-Mart, but they are currently the only player in the OKC grocery market with deep enough pockets to take the risk on moving downtown right now.  Downtown OKC probably isn't ready for a CityTarget yet and stores like Crest and Uptown seem to be more focused on suburban expansion at the moment.  Homeland is stagnant.  Wal-Mart has some decent stores in other markets where they have done their best to compliment the community rather than work against it.   That's my biggest beef with Wal-Mart, especially the way they have operated in the OKC market, but if they are willing to do this store differently, it could be a great thing.  From everything I've seen posted on here from Pete and otherwise, anything else in terms of a full supermarket downtown would be around 3-5 years away.  Having a supermarket downtown sooner than that would be a huge benefit and may also spur more growth downtown as they would no longer have to drive so far for basic goods.


Target has pretty much moved away from the CityTarget brand and now focuses on what was called the smaller TargetExpress (roughly 20,000 sq ft) concept which is basically a Walgreens/CVS model. 
They've since rebranded both as just Target but I could see a TargetExpress type store in midtown as a possibility in 3-5 or so years but a CityTarget (80,000 sq ft)  downtown isn't going to happen, probably ever.

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