# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  5/26 Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Outlet Shoppes Update

## bbhill

Sorry if its a repost. I hadn't seen this anywhere else.

Oklahoma City projects stall, look for momentum. via okcBIZ

 Pamela A. Grady
5/26/2009 12:00:00 AM


In the Oklahoma City metro area and its surrounding communities, many development projects have been planned, talked about or reported as forthcoming. Looking back, some projects took off and did well, while others never came to fruition, or simply fell off of peoples radar.

OKCBiz takes a look at some of these commercial projects to see whether these deals are moving forward or dead in the water. Simply put, Whatever happened to that?!?

Tuscana

THE PLAN: Two years ago, local developer Larry Owsley of RCL Mortgage Corp. purchased 233 acres north of Quail Springs Mall for his Tuscana project, a Mediterranean-style, mixed-use development. He purchased the vacant land with plans to build Oklahoma Citys largest mixed-use destination project. Initially, the plan was to be completed within five to seven years.

THE PROBLEM: Weve been pushed back a year or two, Owsley says, blaming delays on economic circumstances and retailers struggling to find new finance options. Everybodys just in slow-motion or holding back until their own financing can get worked out. A lot of their major financing from Wall Street, major investment firms or the REITs have gone away.

THE PROSPECT: Nonetheless, Owsley says hes not waiting any longer to begin working on the projects infrastructure at its ceremonial entrance on May Avenue, where an 18-foot-tall, triple-layered, Tuscany-style fountain will be placed. He says roads are being paved on the Stillwater National Bank-financed project.

Two years ago, our market feasibility study indicated (Tuscana) would be $700 million to $800 million in bricks and mortar, he says, but admits the cost may be much higher once all is said and done.

Under the projects planned unit development, the pedestrian-friendly Tuscana will provide more than 800,000 square feet of retail space, with an emphasis on family recreation.

Around the perimeters, we have 10 acres on 150th that will be upscale boutique retail, he says. On the May Avenue frontage, the area is set up for restaurants with water features and more retail. The concept is everything is driven to the center of the development where the hub of activity will be.

Additionally, more than 600,000 square feet of residential-size offices and larger corporate structure areas will be available. The project also will feature five to six different styles of residential living, including mid-rise, row homes, townhomes, condominiums and lofts.

The demographics here in Oklahoma City, in terms of education, number of people, and the income in certain areas of Oklahoma City, is very strong, Owsley says. And our development center is in the center of the bulls eye.


Quail Springs Ranch

THE PLAN: Local commercial real estate broker Bob Sullivan of NAI Sullivan Group planned for Quail Springs Ranch at Western Avenue and Memorial Road to be a 90-acre, 1.5 million-square-foot, mixed-used project, including The Shops at Highland Park and The Offices at Highland Park, built by Retail Endeavors Group.

THE PROBLEM: Signs onsite indicate the project was to open in summer 2009, but the project has yet to break ground. Sullivan says it has been delayed due to the economy, but only for about 12 months.

THE PROSPECT: The project is still on track, but with the national slowdown, its been pushed back, he says.

Plans for the site include a 235,965-square-foot anchor, a 65,000-square-foot fitness center, 302,781 square feet of additional retail, 305,300 square feet of commercial offices, a 62,900-square-foot cinema, a 64,917-square-foot entertainment anchor, 23,225 square feet of freestanding restaurants, 243,100 square feet of residential and a 131,400-square-foot hotel. An IMAX theater by Dickinson Theaters is expected as a major tenant, as well as a Legoland theme park and boat rides.


The Outlet Shoppes at Oklahoma City

THE PLAN: In early 2008, Oklahoma City Council members signed a contract to approve $8 million in economic incentives for Horizon Group Properties and Cousins Properties to co-develop Oklahoma Citys first outlet center at Interstate 40 and Council Road, with the understanding that the developers would provide an initial $50 million investment. Depending on the success of the center, another 75,000 square feet could be added later.

The team retained Timberlake Construction as general contractor for its $65 million, 350,000-square-foot retail center, to be called The Outlet Shoppes at Oklahoma City.

THE PROBLEM: Construction was scheduled to begin in November 2008, then was delayed until this spring due to the economy.

THE PROSPECT: Horizon Group Properties Senior Vice President Thomas Rumptz says his group remains cautiously optimistic that construction will begin on the project this summer, with a target completion date of July 2010.

We have some strong tenants in the marketplace that weve worked with and have had in the last 45 to 60 days, Rumptz says. So we hope to start construction by the latter part of summer and open by the latter part of 2010. This facility will be similar to our El Paso center (The Outlet Shoppes at El Paso). We built 380,000 square feet of retail in El Paso, and Oklahoma Citys will be 350,000 square feet, but still with 90 retailers on site.
Despite the current economy, Rumptz says he believes outlets will continue to remain strong in the retail industry.

If you look at the retail segments right now, the strongest retail segment is the outlet centers, he says. And its not always that way, so I dont have the pleasure of saying that all of the time. Most of the retailers that were working with have stayed with the outlet project. Its part of their growth plan, and their corporate success is outlet centers.

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## fromdust

this is good new to me! especially the tuscana project, but i was under the assumption that the imax would be here and not at the other project on the other side of the mall. not that thats important.

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## jbrown84

I thought that about the Dickinson Theatre as well, fromdust.  A mistake, possibly?

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## andimthomas

OMG at Tuscana
Tuscana

My jaw literally dropped.

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## Luke

> OMG at Tuscana
> Tuscana
> 
> My jaw literally dropped.


I hope it still happens.

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## warreng88

> this is good new to me! especially the tuscana project, but i was under the assumption that the imax would be here and not at the other project on the other side of the mall. not that thats important.


Not exactly sure what you are saying. For the record, Tuscana IS the development just north of Quail Springs Mall.

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## fromdust

> Not exactly sure what you are saying. For the record, Tuscana IS the development just north of Quail Springs Mall.


okay, i guess i didnt make it clear. i thought the imax was going to be part of the tuscana project, not the development on the other side of quail.

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## Tex

> okay, i guess i didnt make it clear. i thought the imax was going to be part of the tuscana project, not the development on the other side of quail.


It's not even on the other side of Quail. It's over there by Western & Memorial.

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## Patrick

I see Oklahoma City supporting an outlet mall better than what's been proposed for Tuscana.  Folks at Penn Square have told me that retailers like Nordstrom, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus, Saks, etc. aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics.  Just look at Macy's......our Macy's aren't real Macy's.  They've cheapened them to fit in our market.  I don't think a lot of upscale retailers want to tarnish their names like that.  I still don't think building an outdoor shopping mall right next to an enclosed indoor shopping mall is a good idea.   I'm not opposed to a mixed use development there.

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## Jesseda

great thats what developers and possible retailers need to read (negativity) that if high end retailers come to okc they will hav to cheapen themselves to fit our okc class lol...

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## circuitboard

> I see Oklahoma City supporting an outlet mall better than what's been proposed for Tuscana.  Folks at Penn Square have told me that retailers like Nordstrom, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus, Saks, etc. aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics.  Just look at Macy's......our Macy's aren't real Macy's.  They've cheapened them to fit in our market.  I don't think a lot of upscale retailers want to tarnish their names like that.  I still don't think building an outdoor shopping mall right next to an enclosed indoor shopping mall is a good idea.   I'm not opposed to a mixed use development there.


Wow, love your enthusiasm for OKC. I disagree; I believe OKC is more than ready to handle high end retail. OKC should not be saturated with it like Dallas and promote major credit card debt, but we could defiantly handle a few. Tulsa has had a wannabe saks for years, and they are fine.

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## Patrick

> Wow, love your enthusiasm for OKC. I disagree; I believe OKC is more than ready to handle high end retail. OKC should not be saturated with it like Dallas and promote major credit card debt, but we could defiantly handle a few. Tulsa has had a wannabe saks for years, and they are fine.


I agree with you, but what you believe, and what the retailers are actually saying are two different things.  Reality is that the high end retailers ARE NOT considering OKC because of our demographics.   In regards to Tulsa, if you look at demographics, they're actually better in Tulsa.  That's not to say we don't have areas of concentrated wealth in OKC.  But, from all of the demographic studies, Tulsa is stronger in this area.  Also, Saks is getting dirt cheap rent in Utica Square.

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## Patrick

Tulsa Demographics show 1% of population with salaries over 200K.   OKC shows 0.6% of population with salaries over 200K.   

Of note, Dallas has 1.3% of its population with salaries over 200K.  LA and NY have similar results.

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## circuitboard

Yeah it is unfortanate that our demographics reflect that. We are really spread out in the metro. Hopefully retailers will look closely.

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## Patrick

Tulsa: 
Avg HH Income $50,270
Median HH Income $35,316
Per Capita Income $21,534


Oklahoma City: 
Avg HH income: $43,373
Median HH Income: $31,345
Per capita income: $18,311

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## FritterGirl

> Tulsa: 
> Avg HH Income $50,270
> Median HH Income $35,316
> Per Capita Income $21,534
> 
> 
> Oklahoma City: 
> Avg HH income: $43,373
> Median HH Income: $31,345
> Per capita income: $18,311


Patrick,

Are those figures factoring the whole MSA, or just OKC proper?  Can make a difference, especially if you throw in Norman and Edmond, the residents of which would likely travel to a central location if the right high-end retail was there.

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## bluedogok

Wow, most Macy's that used to be Foley's are not much different than most other Macy's around. We have a brand new one at the new "high-end lifestyle center" (outdoor mall) where I work, it seems no different than the one at Penn Square. This is a two year old Simon lifestyle center (The Domain) with Needless Markups, Tiffany and all the other name brand stores. There is also a planned Nordstrom's and a relocation of Sak's destined for the third phase that was put on hold late last year.

ALL of the Macy's stores that I have been in pale in comparison to the original in NYC.

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## Oil Capital

> Tulsa Demographics show 1% of population with salaries over 200K.   OKC shows 0.6% of population with salaries over 200K.   
> 
> Of note, Dallas has 1.3% of its population with salaries over 200K.  LA and NY have similar results.


You need to look at metro numbers, not city numbers (which I presume is what you did.)   The city numbers are pretty much worthless for this purpose.

According to the US Census Bureau, 2.6% of households in OKC have income over 200K, compared to 2.5% of Tulsa households.

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## Oil Capital

> Tulsa: 
> Avg HH Income $50,270
> Median HH Income $35,316
> Per Capita Income $21,534
> 
> 
> Oklahoma City: 
> Avg HH income: $43,373
> Median HH Income: $31,345
> Per capita income: $18,311


Again, you need to look at metro numbers.  According to the US Census Bureau, as of 2007:

Tulsa metro:
Median HH Income:  $43,749
Mean HH Income:  $59,075
Per Capita Income:  $23,723

OKC Metro:
Median HH Income:  $ 43,652
Mean HH Income:  $59,937
Per Capita Income:  $24,075


(and, btw, not sure where you got your numbers, but they don't agree with the Census Bureau's city numbers either)

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## CuatrodeMayo

> ALL of the Macy's stores that I have been in pale in comparison to the original in NYC.


Yea...it doesn't even feel like the same company.

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## kevinpate

tradin' on the presump, and hopin' the sheeple don't notice.  Seems to be workin' by and large.

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## okcpulse

> Again, you need to look at metro numbers.  According to the US Census Bureau, as of 2007:
> 
> Tulsa metro:
> Median HH Income:  $43,749
> Mean HH Income:  $59,075
> Per Capita Income:  $23,723
> 
> OKC Metro:
> Median HH Income:  $ 43,652
> ...


Actually, Oklahoma City MSA's per capita income is $38,834 in 2007 according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.  In Tulsa, the per capita income was $41,307.  Dallas-Ft. Worth's per capita income in 2007 is $40,893.

However, Oklahoma City is outpacing both Tulsa and Dallas in per capita income growth.

Patrick, while demographics do play a role in what stores locate to a metro area, I still have a hard time believing Tulsa is THAT much stronger.  According to my sources. Oklahoma City alone... not including Edmond, Nichols Hills and Norman... has 3,048 people that make more that $200K a year.  Tulsa alone... not including Owasso, Jenks and Broken Arrow... has 3,862 people that make more than $200K a year.

Now, lets take a closer look at the 'burbs for both cities...

Individuals making more than $200K per year in...

Edmond - 1,017
Nichols Hills - 378
Norman - 675
Total including OKC - 5,118

Broken Arrow - 351
Jenks - 50
Owasso - 33
Total including Tulsa - 4,296

Please understand, I am not saying you are wrong Patrick.  Tulsa no doubt has good demographics, percentage-wise.  But Oklahoma City's tangible numbers are getting overlooked.  If these retailers are looking at solely Oklahoma City and not the suburbs, therein lies our problem.  Anyone in Oklahoma City and Edmond knows that Edmondites do the bulk of their weekend shopping in Oklahoma City (when they are not in Dallas, mind you).  And given the geography of those demographics, between Nichols Hills, the Quail Springs Region and Edmond, and there is a lot of missed opportunity.  Why?

Those figures above are based on the 2000 census as well.  Given the growth in per capita income over the last eight years, OKC's demographics have gotten stronger.  So I fail to see why OKC is getting overlooked.  If it were 1995, I can understand why.  But with the major presence of two energy companies, not to mention the gradual influx of bio-tech jobs and the full recovery from the oil bust 11 years ago, this is why I am such a strong ambassador for OKC.

I value your opinion, Patrick, so what are your thoughts?

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## Patrick

I think at this point in the game, Tulsa and OKC are pretty equal.  That's why we're getting similar retailers, NOW.   But, you have to remember, Saks has been in Utica Square a long time.......and things were different back when they located there.  OKC has moved up some in regards to per capita income, but in regards to Tulsa, as oil companies have left the former oil capital, I think what we've seen more is Tulsa go down in comparison to say 30-40 years ago......factoring in inflation of course.  So, maybe Tulsa at one time was ahead of OKC in per capita income, but times have changed.  

I think a lot of it has to due with population density too.  You tend to see more upscale retailers in larger metro areas.  We're just not there yet.  And you're seeing it in faster growing cities like Austin and Albuqurque before you're seeing it here.  Our growth rate just isn't as large as some of these other cities.

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## Oil Capital

> Actually, Oklahoma City MSA's per capita income is $38,834 in 2007 according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.  In Tulsa, the per capita income was $41,307.  Dallas-Ft. Worth's per capita income in 2007 is $40,893.


Interesting that the BEA numbers are so different from the Census Bureau numbers.  Any idea why?   (FWIW, the BEA numbers show the Houston metro (where I believe you live) with a Per capita income of $46,471)

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## LIL_WAYNE_4_PREZIDENT08

im more exctied about the new outlet mall being built right up the street with stuff I can afford to buy then that stuff up in edmond with stuff I can afford to look at

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## okcpulse

> Interesting that the BEA numbers are so different from the Census Bureau numbers.  Any idea why?   (FWIW, the BEA numbers show the Houston metro (where I believe you live) with a Per capita income of $46,471)


The U.S. Census Bureau uses per capita income estimates derived from the Economic Census, whose most recent figures are from 2000.

The BEA uses income reported each year during tax return season, which is not just place of work, the only category in which the Economic Census reports.  BEA derives data on income collected from place of work, rental income, proprietary income (royalties), dividends and interest income.

Yes, Houston MSA's income is the highest in the Texas-Oklahoma region, and is more reliant on energy than is Oklahoma City.  In Montgomery County, where I live, The Woodlands boosts the average significantly.

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## Oil Capital

> The U.S. Census Bureau uses per capita income estimates derived from the Economic Census, whose most recent figures are from 2000.
> 
> The BEA uses income reported each year during tax return season, which is not just place of work, the only category in which the Economic Census reports.  BEA derives data on income collected from place of work, rental income, proprietary income (royalties), dividends and interest income.


Not true.  

(1) The Census Bureau numbers I quoted are from the "American FactFinder, which is updated on an ongoing basis.  The most recent numbers are 2007 (same as the BEA's, I believe).  

(2) "Income" for these purposes is:   "‘‘Total income’’ is the sum of the amounts reported separately for wage or salary income; net self-employment income; interest, dividends, or net rental or royalty income or income from estates and trusts; Social Security or railroad retirement income; Supplemental Security Income (SSI); public assistance or welfare payments; retirement, survivor, or disability pensions; and all other income."  (As you can see, not just "place of work")

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## okcpulse

> Not true.  
> 
> (1) The Census Bureau numbers I quoted are from the "American FactFinder, which is updated on an ongoing basis.  The most recent numbers are 2007 (same as the BEA's, I believe).  
> 
> (2) "Income" for these purposes is:   "Total income is the sum of the amounts reported separately for wage or salary income; net self-employment income; interest, dividends, or net rental or royalty income or income from estates and trusts; Social Security or railroad retirement income; Supplemental Security Income (SSI); public assistance or welfare payments; retirement, survivor, or disability pensions; and all other income."  (As you can see, not just "place of work")


Right, which is the basis of per capita income.  I looked on the census.gov website for the source, and that source was from the Economic Census on the QuickFacts page.

But of American FactFinder's source is the BEA, then that makes their numbers disputable, because if you go straight to U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) - bea.gov Home Page and select State and Local Area Personal Income, the tables are all there, and are significantly different from what American FactFinder made available.

BEA's site releases new income figures each year at the end of April.  State per capita income figures are available for 2008, while the counties and metro areas are a year behind in 2007 (BEA takes an extra year to break down the state figures by county).

When I used to research from the U.S. Statistical Abstract book, the Economic Census only reported per capita income from place of work, but that was in the 1990s and probably changed.

Either way, American FactFinder's 2007 figures do not match BEA's 2007 figures.

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## Oil Capital

> Right, which is the basis of per capita income.  I looked on the census.gov website for the source, and that source was from the Economic Census on the QuickFacts page.
> 
> But of American FactFinder's source is the BEA, then that makes their numbers disputable, because if you go straight to U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) - bea.gov Home Page and select State and Local Area Personal Income, the tables are all there, and are significantly different from what American FactFinder made available.
> 
> BEA's site releases new income figures each year at the end of April.  State per capita income figures are available for 2008, while the counties and metro areas are a year behind in 2007 (BEA takes an extra year to break down the state figures by county).
> 
> When I used to research from the U.S. Statistical Abstract book, the Economic Census only reported per capita income from place of work, but that was in the 1990s and probably changed.
> 
> Either way, American FactFinder's 2007 figures do not match BEA's 2007 figures.


The Census numbers I quoted are not from the "Economic Census".  They are from the American Community Survey.  The American Community Survey is done every year.  Its source is not the BEA.  Its source is the survey it does every year.  You can find all of the tables in the Census Bureau Home Page website, under American FactFinder, then under American Community Survey.  Apparently, the BEA and the Census are counting different things as part of income.

*Edit*:  Here's some additional info I found:   " Without going into the detailed differences we can say that BEA counts more things than the Census does. The Census asks about your specific income sources. The sources of income counted by the Census are:

    * Wages, salary, commissions, bonuses, or tips from all jobs

    * Self-employment income from own non-farm businesses or farm businesses, including proprietorships and partnership (Net income after business expenses).

    * Interest, dividends, net rental income, royalty income, or income from estates and trusts

    * Social Security or Railroad Retirement

    * Supplemental Security Income (SSI)

    * Any public assistance or welfare payments from the state or local welfare office

    * Retirement, survivor, or disability pensions — Do NOT include Social Security.

    * Any other sources of income received regularly such as Veterans’ (VA) payments, unemployment compensation, child support, or alimony — Do NOT include lump-sum payments such as money from an inheritance or sale of a home. 


Apparently, the BEA calculation of income also adds in such things as: imputed income, lump-sum payments not received as part of earnings, certain in-kind personal current transfer receipts—such as Medicaid, Medicare, and food stamps—and employer contributions to private health and pension funds and to government employee retirement plans....and more.

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## okcpulse

> The Census numbers I quoted are not from the "Economic Census".  They are from the American Community Survey.  The American Community Survey is done every year.  Its source is not the BEA.  Its source is the survey it does every year.  You can find all of the tables in the Census Bureau Home Page website, under American FactFinder, then under American Community Survey.  Apparently, the BEA and the Census are counting different things as part of income.
> 
> *Edit*:  Here's some additional info I found:   " Without going into the detailed differences we can say that BEA counts more things than the Census does. The Census asks about your specific income sources. The sources of income counted by the Census are:
> 
>     * Wages, salary, commissions, bonuses, or tips from all jobs
> 
>     * Self-employment income from own non-farm businesses or farm businesses, including proprietorships and partnership (Net income after business expenses).
> 
>     * Interest, dividends, net rental income, royalty income, or income from estates and trusts
> ...


That makes sense.  Either way, though, I prefer the BEA data because it is dollars you get in your bank account regardless of the source.  It is tangible dollars that can be spent.  It paints the most accurate picture of our overall well being.

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## Oil Capital

> That makes sense.  Either way, though, I prefer the BEA data because it is dollars you get in your bank account regardless of the source.  It is tangible dollars that can be spent.  It paints the most accurate picture of our overall well being.


No, it is not actual tangible dollars that are in your bank account.  Read the listings of what is included in the calculations again (the BEA numbers include imputed income, contributions to company and government retirement accounts made on your "account", etc.  These are decidedly NOT money that is in one's bank account, not very tangible and cannot be spent, at least in any current short- or mid-term time line.  

If what you are looking for is a number that reflects tangible dollars in your bank account, you should prefer the Census Bureau American Community Survey numbers.

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## metro

:Ot:

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## geterdone

Good news drove by Tuscana today, and it looks like they have started on the development again.  Two large holes have been dug, probably for the ponds, and also heavy equipment is operating.

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## megax11

I'm more anxious in the ranch so they can get that IMAX put in.

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## Patrick

I actually heard a report today that ponds may be put in, but that the owner of the development may be considering selling the land to homedevelopers, since the retail market may not recover for some time.  With Quail Springs Mall nearby, as well as strip malls surrounding the area, the place would be hard to sell now as a retail development.  The current owner is considering a mix of office and home development instead of retail, so the concept of upscale retail being included may be forever off the table.  Also, and IMAX development has been tabled.  So, it looks like this land may be put to other uses, as the owner is looking for a quicker return.

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## bbhill

great all we need are more generic suburban neighborhoods!! /sarcasm

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## MikeOKC

> I actually heard a report today that ponds may be put in, but that the owner of the development may be considering selling the land to homedevelopers, since the retail market may not recover for some time.  With Quail Springs Mall nearby, as well as strip malls surrounding the area, the place would be hard to sell now as a retail development.  The current owner is considering a mix of office and home development instead of retail, so the concept of upscale retail being included may be forever off the table.  Also, and IMAX development has been tabled.  So, it looks like this land may be put to other uses, as the owner is looking for a quicker return.


Where did you hear that? Tuscana is _helped_ by having Quail Springs Mall nearby, as well as other retail. Tuscana wants to bring a touch of the urban lifestyle to the burbs as an upscale mixed-use development. Having such a variety of amenities nearby is the very reason that particular location was chosen for Tuscana. I have it on very good authority that your information is incorrect.

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## Patrick

> Where did you hear that? Tuscana is _helped_ by having Quail Springs Mall nearby, as well as other retail. Tuscana wants to bring a touch of the urban lifestyle to the burbs as an upscale mixed-use development. Having such a variety of amenities nearby is the very reason that particular location was chosen for Tuscana. I have it on very good authority that your information is incorrect.


That info is from some pretty solid real estate developers with Blanton Property group and Price Edwards and Co.  I believe Blanton is actually representing the possible sale to a suburban home developer.  Developers of Tuscana have come to the conclusion that almost all interest from retailers has dropped off, and thus they're wanting to move to something that will be more profitable and more realistic in this market.

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## megax11

From what I understand, the IMAX wasn't even going to be on that property, but rather on a piece of land a mile or two east of Penn and Memorial.

If Tuscana is not going to fly, that should have no impact on the Quail Springs Ranch, where Dickinson wants to put the IMAX.

And if not, oh well... Maybe they will find a different place to put their IMAX. Maybe closer to southside.

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## Dustin

I just got an email back from Matt Owsley, one of the owners of RCL Development Corp. who is building Tuscana.  He said that the project is still a go!

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## Patrick

> I just got an email back from Matt Owsley, one of the owners of RCL Development Corp. who is building Tuscana.  He said that the project is still a go!


The project is a go but with huge changes.  It will be mostly suburban housing and maybe a little office space. Missing from the equation will be any substantial upscale retail space as originally planned to be incorporated into a town center concept.   Retailers simply aren't expanding right now, and probably won't be for some time, possibly years.   There will be some retail, but mostly local chains, and food extablishments.   Don't expect any Saks, Nieman Marcus, Nordstroms, Crate and Barrell, or any other upscale national 
retailer like that.   The retail concept will be scaled back to nothing much better than Spring Creek Village in Edmond, if that.   Also, Dickinson Theatres will not be building their theatre or IMAX as originally planned.  

So, in summary, expect an upscale suburban housing development, a few office parks, and maybe a few retailers.   Think Gaillardia, only not as ritsy.

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## okc_bel_air

Do they have a home builder in mind?  What type of price point?

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## Patrick

> Do they have a home builder in mind?  What type of price point?


More in line with prices in Rose Creek.   I'm not sure if they've selected a home builder yet.

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## Puppet

> I see Oklahoma City supporting an outlet mall better than what's been proposed for Tuscana.  Folks at Penn Square have told me that retailers like Nordstrom, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus, Saks, etc. aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics.  Just look at Macy's......our Macy's aren't real Macy's.  They've cheapened them to fit in our market.  I don't think a lot of upscale retailers want to tarnish their names like that.  I still don't think building an outdoor shopping mall right next to an enclosed indoor shopping mall is a good idea.   I'm not opposed to a mixed use development there.


Case in point... Venture up to Tulsa and their Saks is not even remotely the same store as it would be in Dallas...   Quite depressing...

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## okcpulse

> I see Oklahoma City supporting an outlet mall better than what's been proposed for Tuscana.  Folks at Penn Square have told me that retailers like Nordstrom, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus, Saks, etc. aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics.  Just look at Macy's......our Macy's aren't real Macy's.  They've cheapened them to fit in our market.  I don't think a lot of upscale retailers want to tarnish their names like that.  I still don't think building an outdoor shopping mall right next to an enclosed indoor shopping mall is a good idea.   I'm not opposed to a mixed use development there.


I am beginning to have a hard time buying that upscale retailers aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics.  Now, in the case of Nordstrom's, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Markus and Saks, I can totally understand.  They only operate in the top 20 markets.

However, for other upscale outlets like Whole Foods, I just don't buy their excuse.

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## ronronnie1

^^^There was to be a Nordstroms in Alabama.  Yeah, Alabama lol.  I think they canned the idea due to the economy though.  And don't forget, Tulsa has a Saks.  I don't think it's such a stretch to think  Nordstroms might consider OkC.  Remember, Nordstroms isn't as exclusive as Neiman Marcus or Saks.

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## Oil Capital

> I am beginning to have a hard time buying that upscale retailers aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics.  Now, in the case of Nordstrom's, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Markus and Saks, I can totally understand.  They only operate in the top 20 markets.
> 
> However, for other upscale outlets like Whole Foods, I just don't buy their excuse.


Nordstrom goes well beyond the top 20 markets, e.g., Anchorage, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Tampa Bay, Portland, Cincinnati, Sacramento, Orlando, San Antonio, Norfolk, Las Vegas, Columbus, Charlotte, Salt Lake City, Austin, Nashville (under development), Providence, Raleigh-Durham, West Palm-Boca, Richmond  (smaller than OKC).

In short, there are not all that many metros larger than OKC that do not already have a Nordstrom.

While we're at it, Saks 5th Ave. has quite a few stores outside of top 20 markets as well.  Tulsa, Birmingham, and New Orleans come to mind real quickly.

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## OUGrad05

FYI the Tulsa Saks is given major tax incentives to stay...

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## Patrick

> I am beginning to have a hard time buying that upscale retailers aren't interested in OKC because of the demographics.  Now, in the case of Nordstrom's, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Markus and Saks, I can totally understand.  They only operate in the top 20 markets.
> 
> However, for other upscale outlets like Whole Foods, I just don't buy their excuse.


With Whole Foods it's more the liquor issue, right?

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## Patrick

> ^^^There was to be a Nordstroms in Alabama.  Yeah, Alabama lol.  I think they canned the idea due to the economy though.  And don't forget, Tulsa has a Saks.  I don't think it's such a stretch to think  Nordstroms might consider OkC.  Remember, Nordstroms isn't as exclusive as Neiman Marcus or Saks.



Wha?  Nordstroms prices are way higher than Saks or Neiman.

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## progressiveboy

> Wha?  Nordstroms prices are way higher than Saks or Neiman.


 Disagree. My vote would be Neiman's, aka Needless Markups :Smile: , however, I have been guilty of making a few purchases there myself.

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## Oil Capital

> Wha?  Nordstroms prices are way higher than Saks or Neiman.


Not on this planet.

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## Oil Capital

> FYI the Tulsa Saks is given major tax incentives to stay...


Any source for that?  Never heard that before.  Have long heard they pay very low or no rent for their space.

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## Tex

While we're talking about Saks...
Saks Fifth Avenue Online & In-Stores Friends & Family 25% Off (20% Off Jewelry and 10% Off Beauty and Fragrance) - Slickdeals.net

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## Patrick

Well, okay, maybe Nieman is a little higher than Nordstroms, or more likely similar, but no way Saks is at the top of that list.

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## Oil Capital

> Well, okay, maybe Nieman is a little higher than Nordstroms, or more likely similar, but no way Saks is at the top of that list.


Keep trying. 

Niemans and Saks are both well above Nordstrom.

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## okcpulse

> With Whole Foods it's more the liquor issue, right?


The liquor issue is a moot point now, especially since Whole Foods has locations in the following 3.2 beer states... Kansas, Minnesota, Colorado, Utah and one of course in Tulsa.  

Then they have a location in Little Rock, Arkansas, which based on my data, has demographics that just don't compare to Oklahoma City.

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## betts

> The liquor issue is a moot point now, especially since Whole Foods has locations in the following 3.2 beer states... Kansas, Minnesota, Colorado, Utah and one of course in Tulsa.  
> 
> Then they have a location in Little Rock, Arkansas, which based on my data, has demographics that just don't compare to Oklahoma City.


In New York they've got side-by-side stores, one of which sells liquor and the other groceries.  I'm getting really annoyed with us being passed over for other cities with worse or similar demographics.  Omaha has an Anthropologie.  It's not doing well financially, but they've got one.  I thought the Chamber was supposed to have a branch that was aggressively pursuing new retail in OKC.  Granted, many stores aren't expanding at all right now, but clearly someone had been expanding to Little Rock and Omaha.

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## thatgirl77

I appreciate everyone's input and market demographic statistics etc.  Very interesting. As far as a planned Sak, Neiman's or Nordstorms coming to Oklahoma...it's a safe bet to say that sadly that has all been postponed thanks to our newest recession.  I've waited 30 years for NM so I guess the wait marches on... :Kicking: 

Neiman's sadly has lost over 800 million since last December..haven't seen this last quarters losses. Saks has been quietly closing stores across the US for a year now. For the life of me, cannot figure out how the one in Tulsa hangs on...maybe because of a supposed tax incentive another poster  had mentioned.  Nordstrom's seems to be faring the best out of the three but any expansions this way have been put on hold. Three years ago there were plans for a Nordstom's in Norman where the newest Super Target is located. NM was slated for north of Quail, albeit on a smaller scale.  Saks has been doing poorly way before the recession so there never was one planned for OKC.  Got this info from several execs/ dept store heads ...but no one is talking much now!! 
Oh yeah, Dillards stock has been plummeting and it is reflected in the cheaper merchandise they are stocking.  They are in trouble too.  What's a girl to do for shopping in this town...just kidding!! Still sad for classic retailers such as NM and Saks!!!
Anyone know if Balliet's will make it to Classen Curve.....???  They have been suffering similar losses...on a smaller scale , of course!!!
On another note.....would any gals out there like to see a upscale fashion accessories/shoe store in Classen Curve...or Nichol Hills?? Savy business men can chime in too!!! Would definitely have a online store to coincide with the brick n' mortar concept!!!!

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## thatgirl77

Found this report while researching the retail mkt for 2009 and came upon this Pdf.....ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/.../PDF/.../RetailMarketSummary.pdf

sorry, do not know how to convert to a clickable link..will check  later... :Tiphat:

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## Patrick

> Keep trying. 
> 
> Niemans and Saks are both well above Nordstrom.


Than the Saks in Tulsa must not be very representative of most Saks, because it's way cheaper than Nordstroms.

Regardless, I could care less.  I can't afford any of them, and even if I could, spending that kind of money on clothing is ridiculous.

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## metro

> In New York they've got side-by-side stores, one of which sells liquor and the other groceries.  I'm getting really annoyed with us being passed over for other cities with worse or similar demographics.  Omaha has an Anthropologie.  It's not doing well financially, but they've got one.  I thought the Chamber was supposed to have a branch that was aggressively pursuing new retail in OKC.  Granted, many stores aren't expanding at all right now, but clearly someone had been expanding to Little Rock and Omaha.


I've got the impression from this person at the Greater OKC Chamber (who I will keep nameless) hasn't done a good job in getting retail. That's all I feel comfortable saying at the current time since to my knowledge, Chamber employees aren't public officials like City employees.

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## dismayed

Neiman carries $5,000 men's suits in store and you can buy million-dollar tech goodies through their catalog.  I just don't see OKC really supporting something like that for a long time.

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## betts

> Neiman carries $5,000 men's suits in store and you can buy million-dollar tech goodies through their catalog.  I just don't see OKC really supporting something like that for a long time.


Yeah, I don't see Neiman's coming to OKC anytime soon.  They're basically top of the department store market.  Nordstrom would be nice, but actually, the highest end Dillards have merchandise as nice or nicer than most Saks or Nordstroms (except they don't carry Louis Vuitton, to my knowledge, although the Saks in Tulsa doesn't either).  I think we have a second or third tier Dillards at Penn Square, but the one in Scottsdale is pretty amazing.

I think Classen Curve would definitely support a shoe and accessories store, especially if it carried unique brands not sold at Dillards (which has a pretty nice shoe department, although this is where Nordstroms really shines).  If it carried purses too, that would be even nicer!

I keep hearing Balliet's is moving to Classen Curve.  I think it will improve their business.  50 Penn is pretty dead.

I'd be happy just to get a Restoration Hardware, Anthropologie and a few of the other slightly higher end chains, myself.

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## Oil Capital

> I appreciate everyone's input and market demographic statistics etc.  Very interesting. As far as a planned Sak, Neiman's or Nordstorms coming to Oklahoma...it's a safe bet to say that sadly that has all been postponed thanks to our newest recession.  I've waited 30 years for NM so I guess the wait marches on...
> 
> Neiman's sadly has lost over 800 million since last December..haven't seen this last quarters losses. Saks has been quietly closing stores across the US for a year now.


What stores has Sak's quietly closed in the past year?

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## bluedogok

Not closed but development stalled here in Austin, there was supposed to be a new Saks, Nordstrom's and Whole Foods in The Domain opening this fall. They were relocating the Arboretum Saks and Gateway Center Whole Foods, the Nordstrom's was all new.

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## thatgirl77

Hey, Oil Capitol....sorry haven't read the info on how to display a former poster's remarks...I guess i am lazy.  lol

Well, all I know is that Saks closed some stores in the Midwest and had planned to close some in south Texas.  They have closed several in Florida with one significant closing in Ft Lauderdale.  I cannot remember the specific cities but can find out form a friend who works at the Dallas stores.  I do remeber that they were smaller stores much like the one located in Tulsa, with the exception of the Ft. Lauderdale store. I do remember that there was much anticipated planned opening in the Willow Bend Shopppes in Plano, Tx.  Sadley, that never happened either. 
On another note, I read in the WSJ that Neiman's , well the huge corporation that owns the stores, was also planning to close some stores if this years huge losses continued. They had planned to expand inot Mexico first and then some other countries. Of course, they hadn't forseen the latest recession...would love to have seen one in Dubaii!!! 
Whenever I get the specifics...will let you know!!!

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## Oil Capital

> Hey, Oil Capitol....sorry haven't read the info on how to display a former poster's remarks...I guess i am lazy.  lol
> 
> Well, all I know is that Saks closed some stores in the Midwest and had planned to close some in south Texas.  They have closed several in Florida with one significant closing in Ft Lauderdale.  I cannot remember the specific cities but can find out form a friend who works at the Dallas stores.  I do remeber that they were smaller stores much like the one located in Tulsa, with the exception of the Ft. Lauderdale store. I do remember that there was much anticipated planned opening in the Willow Bend Shopppes in Plano, Tx.  Sadley, that never happened either. 
> On another note, I read in the WSJ that Neiman's , well the huge corporation that owns the stores, was also planning to close some stores if this years huge losses continued. They had planned to expand inot Mexico first and then some other countries. Of course, they hadn't forseen the latest recession...would love to have seen one in Dubaii!!! 
> Whenever I get the specifics...will let you know!!!


You do that.  Not sure, then, what you meant by "quietly" closing stores, as if they were being secretive about it.  All the store closing I am aware of have been duly announced.  Nothing particularly quiet about it.

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## thatgirl77

Well, to be honest, then i mispoke about the "quiet" part. However, I have been reading the WSJ "Marketplace" for several years now and haven't seen Saks promoting the specifics of their store closings. If you were aware of the closings then why did you ask????????????
Then you tell me, if you know so much!!!

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## thatgirl77

Hey Betts,

Thanks for your input relating to the possibility of an upscale fashion acc. store at Classen Curve. When Balliet's moves in it will help with all the foot traffic etc. If we decide to carry shoes, there definitely will be designers that are currently not sold at Dillard's stores. Also, we plan to have a website so that we will reach others outside of the Oklahoma area!! :Gossip: 

Marlo

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## metro

> Hey Betts,
> 
> Thanks for your input relating to the possibility of an upscale fashion acc. store at Classen Curve. When Balliet's moves in it will help with all the foot traffic etc. If we decide to carry shoes, there definitely will be designers that are currently not sold at Dillard's stores. Also, we plan to have a website so that we will reach others outside of the Oklahoma area!!
> 
> Marlo


Um, who is we? :LolLolLolLol:

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## Oil Capital

> Well, to be honest, then i mispoke about the "quiet" part. However, I have been reading the WSJ "Marketplace" for several years now and haven't seen Saks promoting the specifics of their store closings. If you were aware of the closings then why did you ask????????????
> Then you tell me, if you know so much!!!


Because I wondered what stores they  had "quietly" closed, just like I asked.   Store closing announcements usually consist of one press release.  I don't know of anyone who has ever "promoted" their own store closings.  When you said they had "quietly" closed stores, I presumed you used the modifier intentionally, to mean something other than the usual practice.

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## okcpulse

> I've got the impression from this person at the Greater OKC Chamber (who I will keep nameless) hasn't done a good job in getting retail. That's all I feel comfortable saying at the current time since to my knowledge, Chamber employees aren't public officials like City employees.


That doesn't surprise me seeing as how some of their figures on OKC are about five years out of date.  Could they honestly be the problem?  Someone isn't getting updated information out to retailers.

Retailers request the data when they do their demographics ring study, and it typically comes from data provided to them by the Chamber.  If the pie charts make the bank happy, we got a store.  If not, then OKC is passed up.  And if they are providing data that came from 2001 when OKC was below the national average in per capita income, then we have found the culprit.

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## onthestrip

I doubt that they are dumb or lazy enough to use old data.  Its a tougher job than you guys seem to think it is.  Again, if you are referring to them not being able to lure retailers to bricktown, I think its bricktown and not the chamber employee.  You cant force somebody to open a store, especially in an area that cant support it yet.

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## metro

> I doubt that they are dumb or lazy enough to use old data.  Its a tougher job than you guys seem to think it is.  Again, if you are referring to them not being able to lure retailers to bricktown, I think its bricktown and not the chamber employee.  You cant force somebody to open a store, especially in an area that cant support it yet.


You'd be surprised how many and who in our city still operate in the past. And no, we're not just referring to the overhyped and overplayed Bricktown.

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## betts

The only store I know anything about is Anthropologie, because my daughter is a manager for one.  What she says is that catalog sales play a huge part in their determination of where to put new stores.  If they see a lot of people in one area buying online, you can presume those same people would buy in a store.  The other data that they use is zip codes.  The stores are supposed to ask for the zip code of people purchasing and, if they see a cluster of zip codes from one area, it increases their interest in a store location.  It's entirely possible that other stores that have catalogs use the same kind of data, and if so, all the Chamber personnel in the world won't fix that problem.  Omaha, Myrtle Beach, Nashville and Jacksonville all have Anthropologies and, as far as she knows, we're still not on their list for a store.  She doesn't know about Free People and Urban Outfitters, however.  

So, my recommendation is that if you're shopping in a store that you'd like to see here, ask them if the collect zip codes if you make a purchase, and make sure they get yours recorded.  I've noticed they don't check zip codes at the Anthropologie in Dallas very often, which could be part of our problem, since they're the one the most people from Oklahoma City are likely to shop in.

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## okcpulse

> I doubt that they are dumb or lazy enough to use old data.  Its a tougher job than you guys seem to think it is.  Again, if you are referring to them not being able to lure retailers to bricktown, I think its bricktown and not the chamber employee.  You cant force somebody to open a store, especially in an area that cant support it yet.


The Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce's website lists Oklahoma City's population at 531,000+.  That is 2004's estimate.  Thus, old data.  It's not hard to jump on Census Bureau Home Page to get the latest data.  Sheesh, even I have the latest data.

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## okcpulse

> I actually heard a report today that ponds may be put in, but that the owner of the development may be considering selling the land to homedevelopers, since the retail market may not recover for some time.  With Quail Springs Mall nearby, as well as strip malls surrounding the area, the place would be hard to sell now as a retail development.  The current owner is considering a mix of office and home development instead of retail, so the concept of upscale retail being included may be forever off the table.  Also, and IMAX development has been tabled.  So, it looks like this land may be put to other uses, as the owner is looking for a quicker return.


I just confirmed with RCL Development last week via phone that the Tuscana project is on track and has not been scaled back or altered in any way.

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## megax11

So if it's still on track, we're still getting a legit IMAX here in the city?

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## zrfdude

No; they withdrew their letter of intent with Tuscana.

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## shane453

> So if it's still on track, we're still getting a legit IMAX here in the city?


By next month there will be IMAX at Quail Springs, according to an article yesterday at NewsOK

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## okcpulse

> So if it's still on track, we're still getting a legit IMAX here in the city?


Keep in mind, the project in and of itself has not been changed.  There will still be the same retail/residential ratio as before.  Since the the theater withdrew its letter of intent, I am sure it will be replaced by some other retail/entertainment option.

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## metro

> By next month there will be IMAX at Quail Springs, according to an article yesterday at NewsOK


and as mentioned in the IMAX thread, it's not a full IMAX.

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## jbrown84

> I just confirmed with RCL Development last week via phone that the Tuscana project is on track and has not been scaled back or altered in any way.


I hope they are telling you the truth.  This is the single most exciting suburban development on the drawing board for the metro (as long as it's not scaled back).

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## okcpulse

> I hope they are telling you the truth.  This is the single most exciting suburban development on the drawing board for the metro (as long as it's not scaled back).


What got canceled was Quail Springs Ranch.  It was scaled back and then canceled.  Tuscana is still on schedule.

It didn't make sense anyway to have to lifestyle centers within a couple of miles of each other.

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## Dustin

> What got canceled was Quail Springs Ranch.  It was scaled back and then canceled.  Tuscana is still on schedule.
> 
> It didn't make sense anyway to have to lifestyle centers within a couple of miles of each other.


Do you know if the developers are scaling back any of the proposed projects that are supposed to be opened in Tuscana? For example, the giant pond in the middle with the hotel?

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## jbrown84

> What got canceled was Quail Springs Ranch.  It was scaled back and then canceled.  Tuscana is still on schedule.
> 
> It didn't make sense anyway to have to lifestyle centers within a couple of miles of each other.


Was QSR the one at Western & Memorial with the Dick's Sporting Goods and such?

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## OKCDrummer77

> Was QSR the one at Western & Memorial with the Dick's Sporting Goods and such?


That's the one.

Retail Endeavors Group :: Quail Springs Ranch

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## okcpulse

> Do you know if the developers are scaling back any of the proposed projects that are supposed to be opened in Tuscana? For example, the giant pond in the middle with the hotel?


No, developers are not scaling back.  This is a multi-phase project that is being developed.  RCL is the same group that developed Spring Creek in Edmond.

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## Soonerman

> Was QSR the one at Western & Memorial with the Dick's Sporting Goods and such?


With QSR being canceled maybe Dick's will open a store in the Tuscana center

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## onthestrip

> No, developers are not scaling back.  This is a multi-phase project that is being developed.  RCL is the same group that developed Spring Creek in Edmond.


Wrong group, spring creek plaza was developed by Ward/Zerby and spring creek village was done by Ballinger (sp?).

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## okcpulse

> Wrong group, spring creek plaza was developed by Ward/Zerby and spring creek village was done by Ballinger (sp?).


Why is Sprink Creek on RCL's portfolio?

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## okc_bel_air

I didn't see Spring Creek in their portfolio.

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## Theo Walcott

Any idea on how much the townhomes are going to cost in this development? Hopefully they aren't any more than $600k.

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## okcpulse

> I didn't see Spring Creek in their portfolio.


My apologies, everyone.  I was looking at Massey-Mann's portfolio, not RCL.  Massey-Mann designed both properties.

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## megax11

Big Movie Zone -- Dickinson Theatres Oklahoma City IMAX Theatre

Can someone tell me where this is located?

According to Dickinson, there's already an IMAX here.

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## kevinpate

> Big Movie Zone -- Dickinson Theatres Oklahoma City IMAX Theatre
> 
> Can someone tell me where this is located?
> 
> According to Dickinson, there's already an IMAX here.


Per their website, their theaters in Oklahoma are as follows:

Arrowhead Mall 10 Theatre
Arrowhead Shopping Center 501 N. Main #102 *Muskogee*, OK 74401 918-682-6600

Central Mall 12 Theatre
40 Central Mall *Lawton*, OK 73501-4600 580-353-8855

Oakwood Mall Theatre
Oakwood Mall - Space #A11 4125 Owen K. Garriott Road *Enid*, OK 73703-4820 580-233-7469

Owasso 10 Theatre
12601 E. 86th Street North *Owasso*, OK 74055-2509 918-376-9191

Penn Square 10 Theatre
1901 N.W. Expressway Suite 2100 *Oklahoma City*, OK 73118 405-848-2202

Starworld 20 Theatre
10301 S. Memorial Drive *Bixby*, OK 74133 918-369-7469

West End Pointe Theatre
12825 NW 10th *Yukon*, OK 73099 405-354-7469


Having never been to any of these, I don't know which, if any, has IMAX.

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