# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Tulsa & Suburbs >  Why is Tulsa so butt hurt?

## RedDirt717

Honestly I've never understood it?

I didn't even know there was a rivalry between the cities until I got to college and some friends from Tulsa would dog on OKC as a manure factory every chance they got.

Now with the Devon tower going up, the Thunder, the MAPS 3 projects it seems like the hate is at an all time high. I read through some comments in the Tulsa papers from the bombing anniversary, some of the commenters where trying to tie Oklahoma City's success to the bombing, and said we'd still be a cow town if not for the tragedy.

Today I read comments from Tulsans about the Thunder and some of the comments were like this: "The 'Oklahoma Thunder' I would love to support. The 'okc thunder' I could care less." 

Like they live in another state of something...Bizarre stuff. Seems OKC citizens are pretty supportive of Tulsa, I actually tried doing some research to see if there was some kind of historical event that catapulted this anger, but I haven't found anything. 

Anyone have any clue?

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## jn1780

Just your typical city rivalry.  It was not that long ago when Tulsa was progressing at a much faster rate and now their upset that OKC has seen more progress the past decade.  If the shoe was on the other foot, OKC residents would be the bitter ones.

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## OKCisOK4me

Tulsans are just retards, unless they are transplants that used to live here, or really old like my Grandma who loves the Thunder!  As far as the bombing being tied to our success or whatever that's all about, MAPS started in 1993 and the bombing happened in 1995.  I doubt some city official paid Timothy McVeigh to kill innocents.  Tulsans saying that is like conspiracy nuts saying that Bush actually set up the World Trade Center bombing so that he'd have a reason to go after Saddam Hussein.  This morning I was listening to ESPN Radio and Dari Noka was talking about the top 3 match ups tonight.  Not once did he mention the Thunder vs. the Nuggets.  I don't know if he's actually from Tulsa but he sure acted like it this morning.

The only reason they don't like us is because we're more Western than they are and obviously they're more Eastern.  They were a city with culture and we're just finding ours.  We're getting all the love and they're living off the rich history of them being an oil capitol of the world in the early 1900's.  It's our time, not theirs.  That's why...

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## bombermwc

Envy. Plain and simple.

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## Kerry

> Like they live in another state of something...Bizarre stuff. Seems OKC citizens are pretty supportive of Tulsa, I actually tried doing some research to see if there was some kind of historical event that catapulted this anger, but I haven't found anything. 
> 
> Anyone have any clue?


It goes back to statehood.  Eastern Oklahoma wanted to form the State of Sequoyah instead of joining with the rest of the area to form present day Oklahoma.  It would have happened if eastern states were not opposed to forming two new western states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Sequoyah

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## ZYX2

> Tulsans are just retards, unless they are transplants that used to live here, or really old like my Grandma who loves the Thunder!  As far as the bombing being tied to our success or whatever that's all about, MAPS started in 1993 and the bombing happened in 1995.  I doubt some city official paid Timothy McVeigh to kill innocents.  Tulsans saying that is like conspiracy nuts saying that Bush actually set up the World Trade Center bombing so that he'd have a reason to go after Saddam Hussein.  This morning I was listening to ESPN Radio and Dari Noka was talking about the top 3 match ups tonight.  Not once did he mention the Thunder vs. the Nuggets.  I don't know if he's actually from Tulsa but he sure acted like it this morning.
> 
> The only reason they don't like us is because we're more Western than they are and obviously they're more Eastern.  They were a city with culture and we're just finding ours.  We're getting all the love and they're living off the rich history of them being an oil capitol of the world in the early 1900's.  It's our time, not theirs.  That's why...


What an idiot. Most Tulsan's love Oklahoma City. We think it is a great city and we're cheering it on. And no, we're not bitter we don't have the Thunder. I love the Thunder. All my friends love the Thunder.  I am glad it is in Oklahoma. I would like for it to be in Tulsa, but its not. Big deal. 

And "It's our time, not theirs"........are you kidding????? Need I provide you with a list of development and other things going on in Tulsa?

Overall, I don't think the majority from either city hate the other. It's just a few angry idiots that stir the pot.

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## TulsaRobert

True, ZYX. In fact, I hear more OKCitians talking about how much Tulsans bad-mouth OKC than I actually hear from Tulsans themselves.

That's not to say that I don't make the occasional jab at OKC. But no-more-so than I do about any other regional city. My complaints usually reflect why I chose to live in Tulsa as opposed to any other city. But hatred from myself and Tulsans in general toward OKC? I think that's just projecting the voice of a few over the region as a whole...

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## Spartan

This thread is stupid. C'mon, give me a break...OKC is incredibly easy to make fun of. Also, this thread presupposes that Tulsans just sit around complaining about OKC stuff happening because they don't have any of their own stuff happening in their area. Just in toto, as Sean Hannity would say, this thread is a big ignorant baloney sandwich.

Why are some thread starters so butt hurt? If some of the OKC jokes are pretty sharp, it's okay to laugh, I know I do...

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## BG918

> Overall, I don't think the majority from either city hate the other. It's just a few angry idiots that stir the pot.


This.  For God sake don't take the Tulsa World comment section as what the vast majority of Tulsans think.  Same for NewsOK and their comment section and OKC.  

There will always be a rivalry just as there is in every state with two similarly sized cities, and especially in Oklahoma where it's basically just OKC and Tulsa (and their suburbs) while the rest of the state is rural and poor.  Both cities are also very different for being in the same state only 95 miles apart.  The people themselves are not different but the cities are..

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## RedDirt717

I'm not saying "all" Tulsans. 

I'm talking about a significant portion though. Like I said, I didn't even know there was a rivalry until I heard a significant amount of people from there, in my life, talk about the vast superiority of Tulsa. Just yesterday a guy I know made a snide comment about having to live in OKC and went on to say that Tulsa University was a superior school academically, culturally, and geographically to OU, my alma mater. I quote: "The only thing OU has on TU is a football team." The Tulsa World comment section was just an example. 

I honestly dont understand it.

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## mcca7596

I personally much prefer the geography of Oklahoma City, seriously.

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## TulsaRobert

> I'm not saying "all" Tulsans. 
> Just yesterday a guy I know made a snide comment about having to live in OKC and went on to say that Tulsa University was a superior school academically, culturally, and geographically to OU, my alma mater.


Not to be a killjoy, but TU does tend to rank higher than any other university in Oklahoma in academics. But there's nothing wrong with most of the other state schools. As for "culturally", I'm on the fence. TU's arts programs are okay, but if I wanted to go for school for performing arts, OCU would win hands-down with OU following closely behind.

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## OKCisOK4me

> What an idiot. Most Tulsan's love Oklahoma City. We think it is a great city and we're cheering it on. And no, we're not bitter we don't have the Thunder. I love the Thunder. All my friends love the Thunder.  I am glad it is in Oklahoma. I would like for it to be in Tulsa, but its not. Big deal. 
> 
> And "It's our time, not theirs"........are you kidding????? Need I provide you with a list of development and other things going on in Tulsa?
> 
> Overall, I don't think the majority from either city hate the other. It's just a few angry idiots that stir the pot.


Talk about butt hurt, LOL. First off, my grandma lives in Tulsa. If you read the post you might have made that connection. Second, I actually like Tulsa. I haven't spent much time there as a plus 21 year old and I'm 33, but I have loved the city of Tulsa since I can remember.  It looks better cause its in Green Country, actually has a real river that needs real bridges to span it & your bike path along the Creek Turnpike is longer than all those combined in OKC! I don't know about the streets on the northside but 6 lanes streets on the southside go a long way (ex. 71st and Yale). Plus, they're made of concrete and not cheap asphalt like OKC likes to do it.  Thank God we have project 180
I know other newer streets here locally are being widened using concrete but the Tulsa area is far more pleasing to the eye and to the car.  Glad Tulsa has development. Please feel free to post about it in the Tulsa forum. And if I said, all Tulsans then that's my bad.

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## Spartan

> This.  For God sake don't take the Tulsa World comment section as what the vast majority of Tulsans think.  Same for NewsOK and their comment section and OKC.  
> 
> There will always be a rivalry just as there is in every state with two similarly sized cities, and especially in Oklahoma where it's basically just OKC and Tulsa (and their suburbs) while the rest of the state is rural and poor.  Both cities are also very different for being in the same state only 95 miles apart.  The people themselves are not different but the cities are..


The problem is that the infamous Paul from Yukon really does represent the views of an incredible amount of people in the OKC region.

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## RedDirt717

Michael Bates 
"Evidently a team in Oklahoma City (happy to take tax money from the whole state but not take the whole state's name) won a big game tonight."

http://twitter.com/#!/BatesLine


Wow....

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## Dustin

> Michael Bates 
> "Evidently a team in Oklahoma City (happy to take tax money from the whole state but not take the whole state's name) won a big game tonight."
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/BatesLine
> 
> 
> Wow....


Wow is right.  What a douchebag.

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## Spartan

I'm not sure Bates is the d bag here. Why do you guys feel he is compelled to root for our team?? I do not understand that logic, or lack thereof, more likely.

I think what we have here is a failure to see things from other people's perspective, on both sides of the turnpike. Good to see my fellow OKCers holding up their end of the tradition... (that's a sarcasm, for those of you on here who don't get that sort of thing)

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## ZYX2

> Wow is right.  What a douchebag.


Even Tulsans don't like him. He is also highly opposed to the BOK Center, among other things...

Spartan does bring up a good point though, but I think in this case, Mr. Bates is just finding another thing to complain about.

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## earlywinegareth

I like both cities a lot and both cities have a lot to poke fun at, so I don't go along with one being "better" than the other at all.  For instance, I am envious that Tulsa has all those great lakes around it, but I wouldn't trade having my beloved OU sports just down the road.  I love spending time in both cities.

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## Spartan

Can we just do away with this idiotic thread altogether? Make it so! lol

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## RedDirt717

> I'm not sure Bates is the d bag here. Why do you guys feel he is compelled to root for our team?? I do not understand that logic, or lack thereof, more likely.
> 
> I think what we have here is a failure to see things from other people's perspective, on both sides of the turnpike. Good to see my fellow OKCers holding up their end of the tradition... (that's a sarcasm, for those of you on here who don't get that sort of thing)


It's pretty obviously a snide remark. The fact that he (falsely) claims the entire state is paying taxes to have the thunder here is indicative of the butt-hurtness. He calls it "a team in Oklahoma City". 

I mean....c'mon...

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## RedDirt717

You can delete it. I don't care.

Just trying to understand the disconnect.

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## dmoor82

> You can delete it. I don't care.
> 
> Just trying to understand the disconnect.


You ever notice how here in OKCTalk there is a Tulsa sub-section,but there is no section at all for OKC subjects on TulsaNow!I noticed when posting anything OKC in The TulsaNow forum you will get bashed,but it's even worse if you try to defend OKC after being bashed,then labled a Troll and banned!OKShi**y this and wasteland down the turnpike and so on...... Just sayin!

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## dmoor82

I dont think Tulsa is Butthurt I just think they want to feel included in the States first pro team!

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## Matt

> You ever notice how here in OKCTalk there is a Tulsa sub-section,but there is no section at all for OKC subjects on TulsaNow!I noticed when posting anything OKC in The TulsaNow forum you will get bashed,but it's even worse if you try to defend OKC after being bashed,then labled a Troll and banned!OKShi**y this and wasteland down the turnpike and so on...... Just sayin!


Couple of your Tulsa Now postings:




> Quote from: dmoor82 on August 28, 2010, 06:29:34 am
> 
> Sounds like your a troll in your own forum YOU CHIT HOLE! GET A LIFE YOU JEALOUS donkey TROLL!





> Quote from: dmoor82 on August 28, 2010, 07:52:56 pm
> 
> How's The WNBA buzz in Tulsa?is it electrifying or is it SHOCKING?LOL!I invite you to OKC to take a stroll thru Bricktown,watch The Devon Tower rise before you and then take in an NBA game or you could take in some Olympic rowing,canoeing,kayacking events on Boathouse row, this is just a few of things you can do!There has been about 5 billion $ investment in OKC since MAPS1 and OKC still has MAPS3(vote passed) projects to build!Sorry Tulsa your WNBA occupied arena with its "great concerts"and your nice DOUBLE A baseball stadium does NOT COMPARE to what is going on in OKC!YOU have NO let me repeat NO chance in hell of getting the olympics NO CHANCE of landing The NBA!Landing The NHL is a possibility in The future!

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## dmoor82

> Couple of your Tulsa Now postings:


If your gonna post my responses then you need to post what prompted those post!GOT IT

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## dmoor82

I also started a thread for Russian Sam on The TulsaNow forum so he could post his model updates there!You forgot to show that Thread and posts'!Did you get butthurt by my post?LOL

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## dmoor82

Here are the two post by an unamed TulsaNow forumer who prompted my response---------Yep...my analogy for what OKC is going through right now?

"You can bronze a turd, but it's still a turd" (bronze=pro sports franchise, turd=OKC).      Agreed.

OKC is a 'chit' hole..

LOL!        both posts' can be seen on TulsaNow in The NBA in Tulsa thread page two!

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## Matt

> If your gonna post my responses then you need to post what prompted those post!GOT IT


Sir, yes sir!  




> I also started a thread for Russian Sam on The TulsaNow forum so he could post his model updates there!You forgot to show that Thread and posts'!Did you get butthurt by my post?LOL


No.  I only wanted to show what a wonderful ambassador you are for our city, is all.  I don't understand why they banned you, either.

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## dmoor82

Back to topic!!!! I don't think Tulsan's are butthurt,I just think they wanted to be included in the States first pro team and they felt a little shafted!

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## Spartan

> Sounds like your a troll in your own forum YOU CHIT HOLE! GET A LIFE YOU JEALOUS donkey TROLL!


This thread has become so epically stupid it's funny. Come on dmoor, I think you're a cool poster, but this is embarrassing, no offense.




> It's pretty obviously a snide remark. The fact that he (falsely) claims the entire state is paying taxes to have the thunder here is indicative of the butt-hurtness. He calls it "a team in Oklahoma City". 
> 
> I mean....c'mon...


Um..yeah. Obviously it's a snide remark. I have an appreciation for things like sarcasm and snide remarks, even if they're about me or my team. Oh, and actually it's true that the state is paying for the Thunder. In case you are unaware, they somehow magically qualified for the state's economic development tax rebate program. 

I am a huge Thunder fan, and I've been to at least 20-30 Thunder games, which should say a lot because I am only in OKC for a few months here and there, anymore. And I also have an economic development way of looking at things, but even I can admit that the argument of an NBA team as economic development is baloney. It relates to other things, and it's worth a tax rebate if that's what it takes, although I don't think the tax rebate made a difference in us getting the team honestly. Perhaps I am even against that, just because come on, let's admit that they're just professional athletes at the end of the day, and we've all had enough of society's special treatment of professional athletes, and I say that as a huge sports buff. Played 3 different sports in high school and have always been a huge OU fb and bb nut, to go along with the Hornets for a while, and now the Thunder.

Oh, and it also is "a team in Oklahoma City." Or, at least I suspect that is where the Oklahoma City Arena is.

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## Soonerus

Typical sibling rivalry, but in tough times Tulsa never comes around to support big brother...

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## dmoor82

[QUOTE=Spartan;425503]This thread has become so epically stupid it's funny. Come on dmoor, I think you're a cool poster, but this is embarrassing, no offense.



No offense taken!They have their fair share of embarrassing forumers also,and I'm sure you have made posts' in the past you werent proud of either!This is all in The past and like I said earlier I will not stand by and let some idiot put down OKC and not get an ear full,childish and stupid as it may be we all have are not so bright moments!

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## BG918

It honestly reminds me of the constant bickering between OU and OSU fans.  OU is OKC and OSU is Tulsa.  Some may argue it's the other way around.  One always wants what the other doesn't have...

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## Jesseda

poor tulsa, is the big bad okc picking on ya again  :Frown:  oh yeah and for the one who said okc is a bronze terd, ya so okc is the poo, take yourself a big long wiffffff

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## Jersey Boss

Looks like there is enough insecurity to fill both cities. Jeeezus, give it a break!

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## Larry OKC

> It's pretty obviously a snide remark. The fact that he (falsely) claims the entire state is paying taxes to have the thunder here is indicative of the butt-hurtness. He calls it "a team in Oklahoma City". 
> 
> I mean....c'mon...


It isn't completely false. The State is giving the Thunder a significant amount of tax money (they rewrote the Quality Jobs Act so pro sport teams could qualify). In that since, the entire state is contributing to it. But it is primarily the taxpayers of OKC that paid for the Arena and the improvements. One could also argue that OKC as the largest population also contributes the most tax dollars into the general fund, so while certainly people outside of the area are paying some of the taxes too, most of it probably comes from here.




> Typical sibling rivalry, but in tough times Tulsa never comes around to support big brother...


Not sure exactly what you meant by that but Tulsa's mayor was here as part of the State representation for the relocation committee(included Stoops, Switzer, Gov Henry and many others). She was in support and the Tulsa World was in support.

But getting back to the rivalry thing...have heard it is a Capitol Envy thing too (heavy concentration of government/State jobs are here) and with OKC being the largest metro area and the seat of government, there is a perception that OKC gets more than its fair share of government allocations.

Always thought Tulsan's did indeed think they were in a different state since they have the Tulsa State Fair (we have the State Fair of Oklahoma, NOT the Oklahoma City State Fair)...LOL

I am definitely not a Tulsa hater and used to drive up there frequently. Being closer to the Ozarks that are of the state is hillier and often greener. They were often considered the more progressive and trendier of the two. Tey would frequently get national chains in Tulsa first, and then a few years later, we might get them here in OKC.

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## Chautauqua

Here is the deal.  It's certainly not the average citizen who makes much of the Tulsa/OKC thing.  If we are competitive, it's simply because it's pretty natural to look at a peer and evaluate how one is doing in comparison.  What I think is amazing about OKC right now is not Bricktown or the Thunder, but the apparent good will and civic pride that the public has about the city.  OKC has had great corporate support/boosterism from two or three of its most visible companies, and that sends a message to the community that things are good.  The interesting thing to me is that both cities have enjoyed similar resiliency during the downturn, with low unemployment rates (compared to the rest of the nation), stable real estate prices, and good economic ratings from unbiased outside organizations and publications.  So why the vast psychological difference?  No question that Tulsa has suffered from a myopia that OKC hasn't... I think the reference to the bombing was that the event served as a benchmark, a low point in OKC's history, that caused the community to rally around a 'rebirth', and your community leaders capitalized on it.

Tulsa, on the other hand, didn't have a low point, so to speak.  Our economy was diversifying, we had Tech and Telecom companies growing at exponential rates, massive growth in Southeast Tulsa, low cost of living, and an idea that downtown was something that needed some attention, but not an alarming retreat from the urban core.

Suddenly, it changed.  MAPS passed.  Project Tulsa failed (due to apathy).  OKC's oil and gas sector grew, The telecom/Tech bubble blew up in Tulsa.  9/11 all but shut down the Aerospace industry (American Air is still Tulsa's largest employer).  It was a perfect storm.  Tulsa has just had a harder economic road to haul over the last decade or so.  I don't see anyone here wishing Bricktown was in Tulsa rather than OKC.  Tulsa has plenty of good energy in terms of midtown revitalization, and downtown.  I do think people here look down the road and see Devon/Chesapeake/SandRidge and can't help recalling Tulsa's Oil glory days.  But envy isn't the right word.  We need good jobs, that is all.

The one major thing I envy is OKC's connection with OU.  Tulsa doesn't have an established four year research institution...TU is a wonderful school, with a huge endowment (larger than OSU's) but its student population is small, and doesn't have the impact that OU does.  Boren's leadership is a big part of that.  The Medical Research that takes place in OKC is huge.  OU-Tulsa has the edge in clinical medicine, but it's the research side that companies evolve from.

As far as the Thunder are concerned...I like the players...no reason not to.  I do agree though that there were State tax incentives used to get the team here.  It is a fact.  It is also a fact that Kathy Taylor assured David Stern that Tulsa would support the team, and that Tulsa's proximity to OKC and that vote of support was a major part of swaying his decision to allow the move from Seattle.  He is quoted left and right saying that.  So, the team should be called "Oklahoma" and they should play 2-3 regular season games at the BOK.  Not to mention, it's just stupid to alienate Tulsa from a marketing standpoint.  NE Oklahoma has damn near half of the states population.  When there are only 3.5 million people in the whole state, you can't afford to do that.  There will be a time when they aren't a playoff team, and they will be needing to fill the stands.  Just ask the Indiana Pacers or the Minnesota Timberwolves.

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## Spartan

> It is also a fact that Kathy Taylor assured David Stern that Tulsa would support the team, and that Tulsa's proximity to OKC and that vote of support was a major part of swaying his decision to allow the move from Seattle.  He is quoted left and right saying that.


When did this happen?

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## Chautauqua

> When did this happen?


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3361374




> "It really puts Oklahoma on a national map, and that's what's important, and it continues to grow the economy of Oklahoma City, which helps Tulsa," Taylor said of the Sonics' impending move. "We are the two most significant contributors to the state economy. Anything that we can do to help Oklahoma City's economy expand is good for Tulsa."
> 
> Tulsa and Oklahoma City are connected by an 86-mile-long turnpike, but the state's two largest cities have long had what sometimes has been a not-so-friendly rivalry. Both Taylor and Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said that 20 years ago, it would have been unlikely for leaders in one town to support a major initiative of the other.
> 
> But Taylor, who grew up in Oklahoma City, didn't hesitate when officials from Oklahoma City and the SuperSonics asked her to be a part of the team's March 25 presentation to members of the league's relocation committee.
> 
> *Her presence -- and the role Tulsa-area residents could play in supporting an Oklahoma City franchise -- was noted by NBA commissioner David Stern. During a press conference following last Friday's vote, Stern mentioned Tulsa a half-dozen times.*
> 
> Stern said the owners learned "how close Tulsa is" to Oklahoma City "and how many citizens of Tulsa will consider the team to be, and did consider the [New Orleans] Hornets when they were there ... a state franchise."
> ...


I mean, it could not be more blatant.  I know she said that she didn't mind the name of the team....but she did.

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## Chautauqua

Also:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3353270




> The rights to those could be a bargaining chip in Bennett's negotiations with the city, with Seattle possible retaining them for a future team. *Stern suggested that calling the club Oklahoma, instead of Oklahoma City, might be desirable because it reflects the importance of other parts of the state such as Tulsa in the franchise's viability.*

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## dmoor82

Go OKLAHOMA CITY THUNDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## BG918

> I do think people here look down the road and see Devon/Chesapeake/SandRidge and can't help recalling Tulsa's Oil glory days.  But envy isn't the right word.  We need good jobs, that is all.
> 
> The one major thing I envy is OKC's connection with OU.  Tulsa doesn't have an established four year research institution...TU is a wonderful school, with a huge endowment (larger than OSU's) but its student population is small, and doesn't have the impact that OU does.  Boren's leadership is a big part of that.  The Medical Research that takes place in OKC is huge.  OU-Tulsa has the edge in clinical medicine, but it's the research side that companies evolve from.


Tulsa has just as many large companies headquartered or with major operations in the city, but they are not as big of boosters as Devon/Chesapeake/Sandridge.  Tulsa-based ONEOK is the largest Fortune 500 company in the state (#189) and Williams is the third (#257).  Devon is #231 and Chesapeake #263.  Both have a similar number of Fortune 1000 HQ's as well.  Energy companies large and small have offices in both cities with one usually having a larger presence in one than the other; for example Halliburton has a larger OKC office than Tulsa while Tulsa has a larger Apache presence than OKC, and many other examples.

Where OKC has a distinct advantage, like you said, is that it's in close proximity to OU which is a major economic engine.  It's also home to the OU Medical Complex which has spurred a growing biotech and research sector.  Tulsa doesn't have the same built-in advantages in that area but could if the state better funded OSU, which has a small campus and medical center downtown.  I think that's more of OU leadership doing a better job of funding its university and medical programs (due to President Boren) than OSU rather than the state screwing Tulsa.  I'm an OU grad and even I think OSU should focus more of its development in Tulsa with more programs, more facilities, more students, and a better-funded medical and research center.  Oklahoma (the state) needs both metros to be economic engines for growth.

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## Richard at Remax

> Go OKLAHOMA CITY THUNDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 :Bow:

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## dmoor82

> 


OKC OKC OKC OKC!Lets go Thunder!

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## Chautauqua

> Tulsa has just as many large companies headquartered or with major operations in the city, but they are not as big of boosters as Devon/Chesapeake/Sandridge.  Tulsa-based ONEOK is the largest Fortune 500 company in the state (#189) and Williams is the third (#257).  Devon is #231 and Chesapeake #263.  Both have a similar number of Fortune 1000 HQ's as well.  Energy companies large and small have offices in both cities with one usually having a larger presence in one than the other; for example Halliburton has a larger OKC office than Tulsa while Tulsa has a larger Apache presence than OKC, and many other examples.


That is precisely my point.  What Larry Nichols, Tom Ward and Aubrey do in terms of vocal leadership is huge.  In terms of generosity, Tulsa is unparalleled. It has the largest Community Foundation in the country, George Kaiser Family Foundation, Zarrow, Schusterman... Yet, it feels different.  It's more of an button down, conservative financially business sector here.  In OKC, people are making 'deals'...I see it in the commercial real estate a lot.  In Tulsa, it's all about who you know, where you went to school, who is your dad, etc.  In OKC, it's, 'Let's make a deal".   That is the best way I can describe it.





> Where OKC has a distinct advantage, like you said, is that it's in close proximity to OU which is a major economic engine.  It's also home to the OU Medical Complex which has spurred a growing biotech and research sector.  Tulsa doesn't have the same built-in advantages in that area but could if the state better funded OSU, which has a small campus and medical center downtown.  I think that's more of OU leadership doing a better job of funding its university and medical programs (due to President Boren) than OSU rather than the state screwing Tulsa.  I'm an OU grad and even I think OSU should focus more of its development in Tulsa with more programs, more facilities, more students, and a better-funded medical and research center.  Oklahoma (the state) needs both metros to be economic engines for growth.


Boren's leadership is enormous.  As an OU grad, I don't know how Brad Henry is going to fill those shoes when DB steps down...

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## OKCisOK4me

> As far as the Thunder are concerned...I like the players...no reason not to.  I do agree though that there were State tax incentives used to get the team here.  It is a fact.  It is also a fact that Kathy Taylor assured David Stern that Tulsa would support the team, and that Tulsa's proximity to OKC and that vote of support was a major part of swaying his decision to allow the move from Seattle.  He is quoted left and right saying that.  So, the team should be called "Oklahoma" and they should play 2-3 regular season games at the BOK.  Not to mention, it's just stupid to alienate Tulsa from a marketing standpoint.  NE Oklahoma has damn near half of the states population.  When there are only 3.5 million people in the whole state, you can't afford to do that.  There will be a time when they aren't a playoff team, and they will be needing to fill the stands.  Just ask the Indiana Pacers or the Minnesota Timberwolves.


By this analogy, would it also be fair to say that they should play in Enid too?  That'd be like saying that the Mavericks should be called the DFW Mavericks and that they should play at least 2 to 3 games in the Ft. Worth Coliseum, lol. Yes, Ft. Worth's proximity to Dallas is much closer but I don't hear them complaining.  You seem like a reasonably smart fellow--except for the last paragraph.  If you can't deal with it, bring your business and your family here.  If you're unmovable, then just enjoy the games on FSOklahoma.

----------


## Chautauqua

> By this analogy, would it also be fair to say that they should play in Enid too?  That'd be like saying that the Mavericks should be called the DFW Mavericks and that they should play at least 2 to 3 games in the Ft. Worth Coliseum, lol. Yes, Ft. Worth's proximity to Dallas is much closer but I don't hear them complaining.  You seem like a reasonably smart fellow--except for the last paragraph.  If you can't deal with it, bring your business and your family here.  If you're unmovable, then just enjoy the games on FSOklahoma.



The Dallas Metroplex has 6.5 million people in an area the size of OKC and Tulsa combined, twice the population of the state of Oklahoma.  Dallas is the economic center and the primary identifiable community of the area.  Tulsa and OKC are equals in that regard, unlike Dallas and Fort Worth, so that is a terrible analogy.  Furthermore, are you actually comparing Enid (population 50,000) to  the Tulsa Metro (Population 989,000)?  Does Enid have arena the caliber of the BOK Center?  Does Fort Worth, for that matter?  This appears to be the issue.  In your deluded mind, Tulsa and Enid are the same. It's absurd.  

Look, the owners can name the team whatever they want, but I reserve the right to think it is stupid, and not to mention poor business, to alienate a million potential fans in a state of 3 million people.  And the Commissioner of the National Basketball Association agrees with me.  It is hubris at it's finest.

----------


## okcpulse

> ... to alienate a million potential fans in a state of 3 million people.  And the Commissioner of the National Basketball Association agrees with me.  It is hubris at it's finest.





> When there are only 3.5 million people in the whole state...


I'll keep this simple...

Oklahoma state population (2010 Census): 3,751,351

By now it is likely close to 3.8 million.  And the state will pass the 4 million mark later this decade.  Time to let go of the 20th Century estimates.  

As far as sharing the team between two cities, it doesn't work.  No city in the NBA practices that model.  Kansas City tried it with Omaha years ago, and it was not successful.  As far as calling the team the Oklahoma Thunder, that is something we are all going to have to agree to disagree.  The team was bought and is sponsored by Oklahoma City's business community.  It is an Oklahoma City team.  I appreciate Tulsa's support.

Think about this... naming the team after the city keeps the door open for Tulsa to name it's future pro team the Tulsa xxxx.

----------


## ljbab728

> Look, the owners can name the team whatever they want, but I reserve the right to think it is stupid, and not to mention poor business, to alienate a million potential fans in a state of 3 million people.  And the Commissioner of the National Basketball Association agrees with me.  It is hubris at it's finest.


I seriously doubt that a million fans are anything close to alienated because of the name.  I have been a fan of the Dallas Cowboys for over 40 years.  I never once thought about turning my back on them because they didn't call themselves the North Texas and Oklahoma Cowboys.  LOL

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## BG918

> I'll keep this simple...
> 
> Oklahoma state population (2010 Census): 3,751,351
> 
> By now it is likely close to 3.8 million.  And the state will pass the 4 million mark later this decade.  Time to let go of the 20th Century estimates.  
> 
> As far as sharing the team between two cities, it doesn't work.  No city in the NBA practices that model.  Kansas City tried it with Omaha years ago, and it was not successful.  As far as calling the team the Oklahoma Thunder, that is something we are all going to have to agree to disagree.  The team was bought and is sponsored by Oklahoma City's business community.  It is an Oklahoma City team.  I appreciate Tulsa's support.
> 
> Think about this... naming the team after the city keeps the door open for Tulsa to name it's future pro team the Tulsa xxxx.


Agree.  The whole "debate" is ridiculous.  If one thing's going to change it's the logo, which I still don't like.  Maybe if they changed the logo to a symbol and it didn't say OKC then people in Tulsa would be happy?

----------


## Thunder

Tulsa is the only city in the entire world to whine about this.  That is just the way it is done for all the NBA teams out there. The Thunder is ours, not Tulsa's, so they can whine all they want.  Its fine that some Tulsans can love and support the Thunder. 

I joined their TulsaNow forum, which was quite impressive that no one there attempted to take my nickname previously.  This will be interesting to see what I will find over there.

----------


## Chautauqua

> I'll keep this simple...
> 
> Oklahoma state population (2010 Census): 3,751,351
> 
> By now it is likely close to 3.8 million.  And the state will pass the 4 million mark later this decade.  Time to let go of the 20th Century estimates.  
> 
> As far as sharing the team between two cities, it doesn't work.  No city in the NBA practices that model.  Kansas City tried it with Omaha years ago, and it was not successful.  As far as calling the team the Oklahoma Thunder, that is something we are all going to have to agree to disagree.  The team was bought and is sponsored by Oklahoma City's business community.  It is an Oklahoma City team.  I appreciate Tulsa's support.
> 
> Think about this... naming the team after the city keeps the door open for Tulsa to name it's future pro team the Tulsa xxxx.


Fair enough...It's after the fact, and it is not going to change...I salute the success.   At least you are smart enough to call it what it is.  Oklahoma City's team.  Just don't tell me that it benefits the entire state, because...it doesn't.  

As far as sharing an NBA team...I don't think its that.  I think it's just smart marketing.  Expand your fan base.  What does OKC have to lose by sacrificing 4-5 home games year?  Some sales tax revenue, sure, but you could replace those dates with other non-Thunder events.  You'd have an opportunity to market the team in Tulsa, sell a 5 game package to the business community...gain sponsors... hell, people might even get over the name faldera.




> *Tulsa is the only city in the entire world to whine about this*.  That is just the way it is done for all the NBA teams out there. The Thunder is ours, not Tulsa's, so they can whine all they want.  Its fine that some Tulsans can love and support the Thunder. 
> 
> I joined their TulsaNow forum, which was quite impressive that no one there attempted to take my nickname previously.  This will be interesting to see what I will find over there.


That is absolutely not true.  And it's not whining.  I presented facts regarding the source of the incentive money, the documented support from Tulsa leadership, and the opinion of Commissioner Stern.  All you have come back with is "mine! Get your own toy!"  Whatever.

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## kevinpate

Pardon if this is already asked and answered, but is there an NBA team (or other pro sports team for that matter) out there that divides its regular season home games between two or more cities?  Or is the desire for that more of a unique OK-centric populism notion?

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## Chautauqua

> Pardon if this is already asked and answered, but is there an NBA team (or other pro sports team for that matter) out there that divides its regular season home games between two or more cities?  Or is the desire for that more of a unique OK-centric populism notion?


Not that I am aware of, but it has been suggested recently....

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/n...al-plan-030111




> 8. I’d contract two to four teams. I’d make the remaining teams play four games per season in a satellite home city. The Lakers would partner with Las Vegas. The Clippers would partner with San Diego. The Pacers could play in Cincinnati, the Cavaliers in Columbus.


Having a "satellite" home city could take pressure off of local sales of season tickets, offer affordable prices for packages, and help expand the markets...and not just in OKC.

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## OKCisOK4me

The suggestions of it are just ludicrous!  It doesn't happen in pro sports...

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## ljbab728

> The suggestions of it are just ludicrous!  It doesn't happen in pro sports...


Actually it has happened before.

http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?ti...ty-Omaha_Kings

But you can see how well that worked out.  LOL

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## OKCisOK4me

Yes, that was mentioned above, LOL. So let me specify...in the modern day era...

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## ljbab728

> Yes, that was mentioned above, LOL. So let me specify...in the modern day era...


Maybe I'm a lot older than you but the 70's is not ancient history for me.

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## HOT ROD

Ok, let's set all of this straight, once and for all.

1) The team is called the Oklahoma City Thunder, because Oklahoma City business men are owners, paid cash to purchase and move the team, and took all of the risk for the sole purpose to bring a major league team to Oklahoma City. The team is also called Oklahoma City Thunder because the city of Oklahoma City and it's residents took a risk on building (and retrofiting/expanding) Ford Center and practice center. No state dollars were used for the purchase or construction, and the state is only missing a small portion of the tax it would otherwise receive from the Thunder and other NBA players.

To my knowledge, Tulsa didn't give anything up nor did Tulsa participate in anything other than the final presentation ON AN INVITATION from Oklahoma City's mayor to ENHANCE the relocation request (since some people voiced concern about OKC's long term committment). We'll talk about this more in a later point. Just because Tulsa built an arena after the fact and are a NEAR million CSA doesn't somehow entitle them to home games of the Thunder.

2) You are so incorrect in your assumption that naming the team Oklahoma City somehow alienates Tulsa from having/developing a fanbase. Case in point, Wichita KS - is a satellite city of the OKC Thunder with a growing base. Are they upset at the name? Is Lawton and Enid upset at the name? Is OKC having trouble filling the arena? 

Spokane and Tacoma people supported the Seattle SuperSonics (as did Vancouver BC people before they got the Grizzlies) arguably more than even the citizens of Seattle. They also heavily support the other SEATTLE named major league teams and so does Portland and the whole state of Oregon. In fact, all major teams in Washington are named for Seattle, are the other cities in that state alienated by this?. Is Colorado Springs alienated by Denver's sports teams? Is Nashville alienated that the Grizzlies are named Memphis? What about San Antonio, does Austin not support that team? I could go on, but you should get the point now - saying a smaller city in the state is alienated due to the team being named for it's home base (and largest) city doesn't hold water. 

I do agree that the Thunder could do more to market the team in Tulsa, but they should do it via their D-LEAGUE team that the same OKC businessmen who own the Thunder gave to Tulsa and named them after Tulsa. The Thunder could also make packages on Tulsa's cable if they aren't already and make promotional tourist packages if they aren't filling the Ford Center for games. This is ditto for Wichita KS, which I understand the Thunder is doing some marketing and there is huge support. They could also open up a store, but all of the merch would be OKC Thunder because that is the team name.

3) Oklahoma Sooners is already synonomous (sp?) with the name 'Oklahoma'. So if we had the 'Oklahoma Thunder', it could cause problems with the Sooners - which most people outside of Oklahoma call OU as, 'Oklahoma' moreso than Sooners or OU. 

4) If the team were named, Oklahoma Thunder, don't you think that might just alienate OSU fans who can't stand any reference that could be tied to OU? Im not trying to start anything with this point, other that to point out that basing the team in Oklahoma City was a wonderful idea for pulling together the state.

5) As mentioned before, Tulsa has a D-League team that is the affiliate of the Thunder. Tulsa also has the WNBA now, also owned by OKC investors if Im not mistaken (but different from Bennett and company). There is no reason to share regular season games with Tulsa and this is not done in the rest of the league. Should we also have a regular season game in Wichita KS? They have a nice new arena and a nice fanbase of the team. 

I do agree we should have at least one preseason home game in Tulsa on an annual basis, and perhaps also one preseason home game in Wichita at least every other year too.

6) Like it or not, Tulsa IS part of Oklahoma City's catchment market. In fact, NBA owners had some initial reservations with the OKC relocation; not because they thought OKC was too small and not because they didn't think there was interest in OKC. The New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets was a great opportunity to showcase Oklahoma City (and the state) while also helping the NBA given what happened to N.O. OKC has 580K+ residents and well over 1.35M in the CSA and tremendous corporate support and ownership, more than enough of the needed requirements to support a major league team on its own.

Nope, the reservations came from the city's market size. OKC's market is not like other major cities where there is a huge catchment area. OKC's market is basically just the current 405 area code + Enid and some of Western Oklahoma [roughly 1.6-1.8M people/700K tv sets]. However, this team came from a market much larger and more populated - Seattle's market covers nearly all of Western Washington, only excluding Clark County (which goes to Portland for NBA) [roughly 4.2M and 1.7M tv sets iirc]. 

This is not the case for OKC, the centre of the state ideally shoul have most of the state outside of the 918 traditional area code as its market (basically 2.5M people and probably 1.3M tv sets), but OKC's current market definition doesnt. Ada has its own market with Sherman. Ponca City is part of Wichita, I believe. The panhandle is part of Amarillo. Ardmore is part of Dallas, iirc. Lawton is part of Wichita Falls. E Oklahoma is part of Ft Smith and SE Oklahoma is part of Texarkana iirc. Im not saying that OKC should get all of these areas, but consider that Salt Lake's market is the entire state. 

If OKC had most of the traditional old 405 area code on paper for its core market, along with 918 and Wichita's 316 as its natural catchment - then the owners would have had no reservation. But the fact that OKC doesn't have most of the state for its core market, making it arguably small in comparison raised a few eyebrows. That is the reason why Tulsa was invited to the presentation, to vouch that they would participate in the cable/marketing package. It wasn't required and OKC would have been awarded the team anyways (but it was a great opportunity to show solidarity and Im sure it made it much easier for Tulsa to get WNBA approval). They could have brought Wichita officials to the presentation as well, imo.

7) The fact that Stern had supported an Oklahoma named team doesn't mean it was the best fit to actually do so. In fact, Stern mainly did this because of OKC's small market size and NOT because he thought the team would otherwise alienate Tulsa. Stern was comparing the team to Salt Lake City, which uses Utah. But there are other small market teams using their base city (Memphis, New Orleans - both smaller markets than OKC btw) that don't alienate their home state or catchment, and given OKC's position as the region's #2 city after Dallas, Stern didn't realize marketing the team as a state team isn't necessary. If anything, it might have alienated Kansas/Wichita a bit whereas OKC does not.


I hope now you and other Tulsans can see, that there is NO way the name of the Oklahoma City Thunder alienates Tulsa from being a fanbase. If there are NBA fans up in Tulsa, they can chose to support the team or be a Bulls fan, Dallas fan, or whatever. They would still fall into OKC's catchment and likely have OKC marketing (which I assume is the case). 

Also - The Oklahoma City Thunder has done wonders for the city AND STATE in that the team has brought positive spotlight to the city and the CITY represents the state of Oklahoma well - as it should, being the capital and largest city/metro. Tell me that does not have a spin effect on the rest of the state, when OKC's skyline, urban offerings, and TEAM is on national tv. ... Im in China, and I get to watch Thunder games and when people ask where I am from and I say OKC - there is instant recognition now. How is that not good for Oklahoma? (particularly since *Oklahoma* City carries the state name in its name, there's no need to say the state when you say Oklahoma City ... ...)

I think you and others up there, might be a bit jealous at the attention that Oklahoma City is getting; you think it should be Tulsa. If anything, I believe Tulsan's feel alienated not due to the name, but due to their continued inferiority complex and competitive/hatred of Oklahoma City - but that's another discussion.

----------


## Spartan

> Ok, let's set all of this straight, once and for all.
> 
> 1) The team is called the Oklahoma City Thunder, because Oklahoma City business men are owners, paid cash to purchase and move the team, and took all of the risk for the sole purpose to bring a major league team to Oklahoma City. The team is also called Oklahoma City Thunder because the city of Oklahoma City and it's residents took a risk on building (and retrofiting/expanding) Ford Center and practice center. No state dollars were used for the purchase or construction, and the state is only missing a small portion of the tax it would otherwise receive from the Thunder and other NBA players.
> 
> To my knowledge, Tulsa didn't give anything up nor did Tulsa participate in anything other than the final presentation ON AN INVITATION from Oklahoma City's mayor to ENHANCE the relocation request (since some people voiced concern about OKC's long term committment). We'll talk about this more in a later point. Just because Tulsa built an arena after the fact and are a NEAR million CSA doesn't somehow entitle them to home games of the Thunder.
> 
> 2) You are so incorrect in your assumption that naming the team Oklahoma City somehow alienates Tulsa from having/developing a fanbase. Case in point, Wichita KS - is a satellite city of the OKC Thunder with a growing base. Are they upset at the name? Is Lawton and Enid upset at the name? Is OKC having trouble filling the arena? 
> 
> Spokane and Tacoma people supported the Seattle SuperSonics (as did Vancouver BC people before they got the Grizzlies) arguably more than even the citizens of Seattle. They also heavily support the other SEATTLE named major league teams and so does Portland and the whole state of Oregon. In fact, all major teams in Washington are named for Seattle, are the other cities in that state alienated by this?. Is Colorado Springs alienated by Denver's sports teams? Is Nashville alienated that the Grizzlies are named Memphis? What about San Antonio, does Austin not support that team? I could go on, but you should get the point now - saying a smaller city in the state is alienated due to the team being named for it's home base (and largest) city doesn't hold water. 
> ...


When was the last time you were in Tulsa?

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## Kerry

Texoma Cowboys?  No thanks.  As for Tulsa:  Tulsa Oilers, Tulsa Talons, Tulsa Drillers, Tulsa 66ers, Tulsa Shock, etc...  The last team in Tulsa to be named Oklahoma was the Outlaws of the USFL and they lasted one season.  How come we never see any teams in Tulsa called the Sequoia Whatevers so they could appeal to all of eastern Oklahoma?

The biggest problem with Okahoma is having 2/3 of the states population in 2 cities.  No other state is in that kind of situation.  Most states have one dominant city with the second largest city being way behind in population or there are mutiple large cities.  Imagine if Tulsa didn't exist and OKC had 2.4 million people.  That would put us between Denver and Pittsburg.

Maybe we need to take a second look at the State of Sequoia.

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## earlywinegareth

OMG we already gave them the 66ers _and_ the Shock...can't they do anything for themselves?  What next?  Are they going to expect us to do their complaining for them too?

OK, so I'm being sarcastic...*BUT*, why can't they go after the NHL?  They could attract fanbase from NW Ark easily.

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## Kerry

The NHL in Tulsa would be a problem because it goes on the same time as the NBA.  Tulsa should try MLS.

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## BG918

> OMG we already gave them the 66ers _and_ the Shock...can't they do anything for themselves?  What next?  Are they going to expect us to do their complaining for them too?
> 
> OK, so I'm being sarcastic...*BUT*, why can't they go after the NHL?  They could attract fanbase from NW Ark easily.


I think there is a future for pro sports in Tulsa, just not NBA being so close to OKC.  The metro is nearing 1 million and you do have OKC with 1.3 million 95 miles to the southwest and Northwest Arkansas with nearly 500,000 110 miles to the east.  NHL could work, but that league is not currently in the position to add teams or move them to smaller markets.  I don't see NFL or MLB ever in either OKC or Tulsa's future.  I don't think the WNBA will last very long, there is just not the interest locally or nationally.  Same for MLS, just not enough local interest. 

Tulsa will likely remain a college sports town, and will support the Thunder.  There may be a few that are against them for whatever reason but the people I know in Tulsa are just as excited as people in OKC and are enjoying following the Thunder.  I think that's pretty common.  Will the Thunder ever overtake OU football as king of sports in Oklahoma?  Never.  But it gives us something to watch in the winter/spring, and the state can get behind a team.  

Like I said if the Thunder really wanted to reach out to Tulsa more than they already do, they could eventually change their logo to something that isn't specifically OKC (even if the team name stays OKC Thunder) and maybe open a Thunder store in Tulsa.

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## Chautauqua

> The NHL in Tulsa would be a problem because it goes on the same time as the NBA.  *Tulsa should try MLS.*



This I agree with wholeheartedly.  Tulsa is a soccer city.  I think MLS would kill it here.  In fact, if I had to choose a pro sport for Tulsa, MLS would be at the top of my list...NHL second.

Let me say this...I don't care why OKC decided to name the Thunder "OKC".  I simply believe that it was a mistake.  Let's leave it at that.

Let me also say this.  My observation is being characterized incorrectly.  Hot Rod used the word "entitled" when describing why I believe the Thunder should play some regular season games here.  It's not entitlement.  It's that it is a pain in the ass for most folks to drive 200 (round trip) miles to go see a 2 hour basketball game. I don't believe that Tulsa is an NBA city and I think Tulsa would have a tough time supporting the NBA by itself.  But I do believe it could better support the Thunder if it were more accessible.  And don't give me that BS about the D-League.  Give me a break.

P.S. And David Stern was right.  It did alienate us.

----------


## Pete

I can certainly see Tulsa's side of things all the way around, including the NBA team name and the museum.  In the first case, the Thunder ownership group did more or less use Tulsa to get the relocation approval and really hasn't offered much in return.  You had to know they were always going to name the team after OKC because all the investors are major civic boosters, and I think they pretended to consider the Oklahoma option when it was never really likely.  If not for all that, I don't think people in Tulsa could gripe but because of it, I can see the hard feelings.

And with the museums, if the situation were reversed and OKC was getting stiffed, that would certainly not sit well.  I think in the case of the AICCM, the state has already sunk a bunch of money into the project and there is really no turning back now.  The fairest thing at this point would be to give the museum in Tulsa the same consideration in the next funding go-round.


Apart from the natural rivalry, the two cities do often compete for resources, employers, tax dollars and recognition.  Often, what is good for one is also good for the entire state and thus indirectly the other city but other times there are clear binary winner/loser propositions and there always will be.

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## Kerry

I don't see how anyone can say using the name OKC was a mistake. Only three teams in the NBA have a season ticket waiting list - Lakers, Celtics, and Thunder (although the fair-weather fans in Chicago and Miami might push that number to 5). The Thunder sell-out almost every game and Thunder merchandise is near the tops in NBA sales. How much better could it get?

Does anyone honestly think Tulsa is going to be there to support the Thunder when the team puts together a few consecutive losing seasons?

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## earlywinegareth

...and if they had been called the Oklahoma Thunder, the oSu fans would be complaining even more about the supposed anti-oSu conspiracy waged by the Daily Oklahoman.  They could've been called the Oklahoma City/Tulsa Thunder, but then you'd have a fight over which city name should be first...not to mention be a laughing stock of the NBA.  If you recall, we did that with New Orleans, but those were special circumstances.  I'm still surprised the NBA let us put the name OKC on the Hornets for those 2 years.

I feel certain the owners discussed this issue at length and at the end of the day, had to choose which group to alienate.  Sux to be Tulsa.  And please, don't call Tulsa a college sports town...it's a high school sports town.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Maybe I'm a lot older than you but the 70's is not ancient history for me.


Yeah, I was born in 78, lol, so the disco days are not a part of my eternal memory...

----------


## BG918

> And please, don't call Tulsa a college sports town...it's a high school sports town.


TU is a Division 1 athletics program.  IMO Tulsa needs to better support TU first before they think about adding another pro team.  I lived in Tulsa back in the late 90's/early 00's and remember TU basketball was a hot ticket.  But losing seasons and few NCAA tournament appearances since then have dampered the enthusiasim Tubby Smith and Bill Self created in the 90's.  TU football has been pretty decent since Kragthorpe resurrected the program several years ago but it's tough to compete with bigtime programs like OU, OSU and Arkansas, all less than 2 hours from Tulsa, on the same Saturdays.  You see the same thing with SMU, Baylor, etc. down in Texas though TCU has been able to somewhat breakthrough and build a dedicated fanbase with their recent football success, and the sheer size of the D/FW metro.  TCU is also Fort Worth's team, in a metro where everything is Dallas-centered..

----------


## Thunder

If it make the Tulsans happy, Kevin Durant suggested a trip to Tulsa for Game 7 Celebration.

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## Spartan

Have I mentioned this thread is idiotic?

----------


## Chautauqua

> I can certainly see Tulsa's side of things all the way around, including the NBA team name and the museum.  In the first case, the Thunder ownership group did more or less use Tulsa to get the relocation approval and really hasn't offered much in return.  You had to know they were always going to name the team after OKC because all the investors are major civic boosters, and I think they pretended to consider the Oklahoma option when it was never really likely.  If not for all that, I don't think people in Tulsa could gripe but because of it, I can see the hard feelings.
> 
> And with the museums, if the situation were reversed and OKC was getting stiffed, that would certainly not sit well.  I think in the case of the AICCM, the state has already sunk a bunch of money into the project and there is really no turning back now.  The fairest thing at this point would be to give the museum in Tulsa the same consideration in the next funding go-round.
> 
> 
> Apart from the natural rivalry, the two cities do often compete for resources, employers, tax dollars and recognition.  Often, what is good for one is also good for the entire state and thus indirectly the other city but other times there are clear binary winner/loser propositions and there always will be.


A reasoned and fair assessment.  Thanks.  I appreciate your trying to put the shoe on the other foot.




> I don't see how anyone can say using the name OKC was a mistake. *Only three teams in the NBA have a season ticket waiting list -* Lakers, Celtics, and Thunder (although the fair-weather fans in Chicago and Miami might push that number to 5). The Thunder sell-out almost every game and Thunder merchandise is near the tops in NBA sales. How much better could it get?
> 
> *Does anyone honestly think Tulsa is going to be there to support the Thunder when the team puts together a few consecutive losing seasons?*


There is a waiting list now...there was one in Portland when I lived there during the Clyde Drexler days too...  and that is precisely my point... these are salad days.  You had a honeymoon period, and now a playoff contender... its great, everyone is happy...but when the going gets tough, and it will, the franchise will have to reach out to their base for support, and what will that be?  You cannot GIVE away Minnesota Timberwolves tickets, for example.  Now they compete with the Twins, Vikes, and Wild, so its not exactly the same, but when KG was in Minnesota, things were pretty good.  Gotta plan for fat and lean times.




> TU is a Division 1 athletics program.  IMO Tulsa needs to better support TU first before they think about adding another pro team.  I lived in Tulsa back in the late 90's/early 00's and remember TU basketball was a hot ticket.  But losing seasons and few NCAA tournament appearances since then have dampered the enthusiasim Tubby Smith and Bill Self created in the 90's.  TU football has been pretty decent since Kragthorpe resurrected the program several years ago but it's tough to compete with bigtime programs like OU, OSU and Arkansas, all less than 2 hours from Tulsa, on the same Saturdays.  You see the same thing with SMU, Baylor, etc. down in Texas though TCU has been able to somewhat breakthrough and build a dedicated fanbase with their recent football success, and the sheer size of the D/FW metro.  TCU is also Fort Worth's team, in a metro where everything is Dallas-centered..


Tulsa is an OU/OSU town, with everyone supporting TU, because how can you hate TU, right?  There are also a ton of Arkansas alums here, as well as a fair number of KU support.  So Tulsa has a good college fan base.  As far as supporting a major league franchise...one day.  probably not NBA, because of the Thunder, but I could see NHL.  I could really see MLS going over.  The Roughnecks were very popular...and in the final couple of years of the NASL, averaged nearly 20k per game.  Plus, Soccer fits our personality as a city...IMO.




> If it make the Tulsans happy, Kevin Durant suggested a trip to Tulsa for Game 7 Celebration.


Shut up...did he really?  *inserts hook in mouth*

----------


## Spartan

It seems hard to see MLS happening again because the league was already so close to going in but the Tulsa leadership lost interest. That would involve bringing many of the same players back to the same table again, whereas the MLS has totally moved on.

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## Thunder

> Shut up...did he really?  *inserts hook in mouth*


According to a report in another thread. :-O

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## OKCDrummer77

> Shut up...did he really?  *inserts hook in mouth*





> According to a report in another thread. :-O


According to The Onion.... So, no, not really.

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## bluedogok

> P.S. And David Stern was right.  It did alienate us.


Only the petty.......

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## Floyd

I don't see how it's petty.  It's Oklahoma City's team, right?  The name wasn't an accident.  You don't get it both ways.  You don't get to have the Oklahoma City Thunder on one hand and expect people who have never lived in OKC and have no connection to OKC to cheer for the team.  Your choice: elevate the city or include the whole state.  But don't get mad and call people "butt hurt" when you elevate one city and people who have an attachment to another city don't come along for the ride.

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## bluedogok

If Tulsa had got a team first and they named it "Tulsa" I could care less, good for them as Tulsa is still part of the state of Oklahoma. It didn't matter to me when the *Tulsa* Roughnecks were in the top level of US soccer and at that time the NASL was much closer to the four other major sports than the MSL is now. So it is petty if there are hurt feelings over a name.

I have always known more Tulsa people that have an issue with anything OKC than the reverse, just like the "perceived little brother" mentality that many cities have towards a larger or more "known" city. Many in St. Paul has that feeling towards Minneapolis, San Antonio/Austin, Fort Worth/Dallas, Houston/Dallas, etc. In most cases "city rivalries" are petty, I like Tulsa, living in Austin now and having lived in Dallas in the past and doing projects all over Texas I get to hear way too much from the petty about their city rivalry crap. Adults shouldn't be so petty about stupid things.

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## Urban Enthusiast

Strangely enough, I saw a car today in downtown Tulsa with Missouri plates and a OKC Thunder flag propped up in the driver side window.

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## Chautauqua

> Strangely enough, I saw a car today in downtown Tulsa with Missouri plates and a OKC Thunder flag propped up in the driver side window.


Cool story, bro.


Sorry.


I never asked...but is "Butt Hurt" a recent euphemism?  I have never heard it before this thread.  It sounds kind of rednecky.

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## earlywinegareth

I wonder which city outside OKC supports the Thunder's fan base the most?  I bet it's Wichita.  I would guess a hundred or more fans drive 2 hours south to root for Collison and Aldrich.  If true, then we shoud rename the team the Oklahoma/Southern Kansas Thunder, or maybe the South Central Plains States Thunder (but excluding Texas).

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## HOT ROD

> If Tulsa had got a team first and *they named it "Tulsa" I could care less, good for them as Tulsa is still part of the state* of Oklahoma. It didn't matter to me when the *Tulsa* Roughnecks were in the top level of US soccer and at that time the NASL was much closer to the four other major sports than the MSL is now. So it is petty if there are hurt feelings over a name.
> 
> *I have always known more Tulsa people that have an issue with anything OKC than the reverse*, just like the "perceived little brother" mentality that many cities have towards a larger or more "known" city. Many in St. Paul has that feeling towards Minneapolis, San Antonio/Austin, Fort Worth/Dallas, Houston/Dallas, etc. In most cases "city rivalries" are petty, I like Tulsa, living in Austin now and having lived in Dallas in the past and doing projects all over Texas I get to hear way too much from the petty about their city rivalry crap. Adults shouldn't be so petty about stupid things.


My points exactly Bluedog. 

And very excellent point, Earthwind. I know Wichita is part of OKC's catchment and I think the team should do more marketing there for packages and cable (if they don't already - been over 1 year since I was last in ICT). Also, if they aren't doing so in Tulsa, they should - and use those OTHER OKC-owned teams that are Tulsa based to promote and expand basketball interest in general. Tulsa was not left out in any of this and got two things handed to it without even blinking. ...

Pete, OKC owners did not USE Tulsa in the NBA presentation, instead the mayor of OKC invited the mayor of Tulsa to show how close the cities are in promoting Oklahoma and how Tulsa usually always supports OKC events. In reality - This really was a no-brainer conclusion, Im not sure why it was even a question from some of the NBA officials other than what I perceived about how OKC's media market is carved up. I mean, is there any state where a city does not support or at least add to the catchment of the team based in a different city in said state, particularly when it is the ONLY team in said state???? (weird face). Tulsa should have been a no-brainer (for OKC's catchment market), imo - Wichita was the one that should have been invited.

Spartan, what does it matter if I've been to Tulsa? ......

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## Spartan

Because you are at it again trying to make us think you're the definitive expert on something you know nothing about, in this case, what you allege is Tulsa's "competitive inferiority complex" or maybe it's just yours... those kinds of things generally tend to be pot-kettle-black.




> Cool story, bro.
> 
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> 
> I never asked...but is "Butt Hurt" a recent euphemism?  I have never heard it before this thread.  It sounds kind of rednecky.


Hey OKC Talk posters: You saw it right here, Tulsa accused OKC people of sounding rednecky. Attack! Get him!

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## Chautauqua

> Because you are at it again trying to make us think you're the definitive expert on something you know nothing about, in this case, what you allege is Tulsa's "competitive inferiority complex" or maybe it's just yours... those kinds of things generally tend to be pot-kettle-black.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey OKC Talk posters: You saw it right here, Tulsa accused OKC people of sounding rednecky. Attack! Get him!


I can honestly say that the only thing that OKC has that I am envious of is the Medical Research facility.  And I do think those boat houses are cool.

and I didn't accuse OKC of being rednecky.  I accused _Oklahoma_ of being rednecky.

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## ZYX2

My God this thread is stupid. Tulsa is not bitter about the OKC Thunder. My gosh. And really, you think Wichita has a bigger fan base than Tulsa? Visit Tulsa and walk around, you'll see a ton of Thunder shirts. I honesty believe the tide has turned on the whole "bitter city" thing. OKC seems to be worse than Tulsa now. Get over yourselves (some of you) and move on to something more productive.

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## Spartan

Hey, I'm with you guys. [Except for when you don't like the OKC Thunder name, but other than that, I'm with you guys  :Smile:  ]

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## ZYX2

Go OKC Thunder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  !!!

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## Spartan

By the way, I think you said it yourself with Oklahoma being rednecky. Doesn't "OKC Thunder" sound infinitely better than "Oklahoma Thunder" ? Maybe that's something we can all agree on!

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## Richard at Remax

GO OKC THUNDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## dmoor82

Getting left in the dust?http://www.fox23.com/news/local/stor...HNYnSflbQ.cspx

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## HOT ROD

> Because you are *at it again trying to make us think you're the definitive expert* on something you know nothing about, in this case, what *you allege is Tulsa's "competitive inferiority complex"* or maybe it's just yours... those kinds of things generally tend to be pot-kettle-black.


Spartan:

You need to get over yourself. Talk about 'definitive expert' and 'pot-kettle-black', you need to look at your own posts and behaviour on this forum. You come on here like *YOU* are the only expert at all things urban and Oklahoma. You act like only your opinion matters as fact and that anybody else who has something positive to say or post something you disagree with is-a-fruit or otherwise has a complex. *You spend all day posting rants and raves* about this or that, I'll give you - some of which is somewhat constructive, about OKC should do this or that or doesn't have this or that. Then you cop an attitude to anybody who has an optimistic outlook for OKC or who opposes your stance. 

You called me out numerous times and agove, so now Im going to call you as I see it - *I see you as an arrogant, ignorant, **** anti-OKC troll* who picked on the wrong person. You may be able to do that to others, but expect a response when you post that bs to me. You are an* ignorant fool* hiding behind an internet forum - look at YOUR number of posts (especially posts per day/time) and then tell us how much of an outgoing person you are. You must have no life - You must have nothing better to do with your life other than troll the OKC Talk forum. You clearly refuse to read or try to comprehend posts from people you dislike or concepts you disagree with. 

And for the record; Im not 'trying to make people think' nor do I 'have an inferiourity complex' - *YOU DO* and apparently so does many still in Tulsa which is a shame. That is a fact, and I have and will continue to stand up for OKC whenever I see someone like you trolling ignorant superficial bs against OKC.

I AM more of a 'resident expert' than you are pal, I am older than you, have been to and resided in both OKC and Tulsa, and have never understood the hate Tulsans have always had against OKC back in the day (before you were born) and some of that 'Tulsa hate/entitlement' persists today, and you Spartan are a major catalyst on this forum for that. Take the blinders off and see the posts even on this thread. There are a number of OTHER expats and city residents who have said, like me, that the apparent fued tends to be one-sided from Tulsa like it has always been. You call ME out because I say it? Why didn't you attack others and call them 'inferior complex'?

For the record - I am happy for Tulsa in what they have accomplished and it is a city set in a beautiful area - but I also don't feel the need to always placate Tulsa when I speak highly of OKC. If I were on the Tulsa forum, then perhaps I would have a positive Tulsa counter. But last I checked this is OKCTalk and the Thread was started asking why Tulsa is still butt hurt over OKC accomplishments. There always seems to be an attitude that Tulsa is somehow the ONLY reason why OKC has prospered. 

Am I not correct to stand up for OKC-my hometown, I've always known OKC's potential and I disagree with your OPINION 'that OKC can't become one of the big guys of the nation'. If you don't like OKC so much, perhaps you should spend your time on TulsaNow instead of trolling OKCTalk pretending like you care.

Small man complex? Take a look in the mirror pal, you present the same behaviour online that you argue does not exist. You spend all of your time (supposedly you are in Europe???) on OKCTalk??? ?? I'll give you that some of your posts are somewhat the same tired ol beneficial 'OKC needs to do this from city X' or 'OKC should model itself after some smaller town like Omaha/Des Moines/insert-city-here, blah blah blah' - but when somebody else offers an opinion or criticism you are the first to attack and become UNCONSTRUCTIVE.

My advice to you is perhaps you should refrain from replying to my posts if you can't read them or find something constructive to say if you disagree. It is clear that you want to attack me personally as you almost never read what I write or at least refute my post with a well-thought counter opinion. You should pick on people who wont stand up to you, because I will call you like I see you. You want to attack my posts or call me out - expect the same! 

Better bring your lunch, pal.

Sincerely, 

Hot Rod!

---------

P.S. - my apologies to the forum and the members who had to read this. This post was intended exclusively for Spartan but I wanted everyone else to also see me stand up to him/her. You all know that I am normally a positive contributor to OKCTalk and I always try to find something at least constructive to say, dreaming or not, just as other expats and city residents have. I hope you all know I am a longtime contributor to OKC's renaissance and am one of the early posters on the first OKC forums from back in the mid-1990s. 

I have never made this type of post in the past but I felt the need to call Spartan out because he/she attacked me and my opinion to this thread for-no-reason and I have seen him attack others without any response nor discipline from OKCadmin. I am quite tired of his/her negative tirades with no counter and I am SICK of him/her trolling anything I write. I normally would have PM'd this post directly to Spartan, but I felt the need to call him/her in public to defend myself - as I think he/she would continue to hide behind this forum unless somebody stood up publicly against this bs. I am ready to return to the positive discussion of contributions and opinions on OKC development and the state (including Tulsa) - but I promise that I can not and will not stand-by anymore and let Spartan troll my always constructive-intended posts or opinions.

Hot Rod

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## BG918

Mods might as well just delete/lock this thread...

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## dmoor82

Let's get ready toooooo Ruuuuuumble!

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## Spartan

> Spartan:
> 
> You need to get over yourself. Talk about 'definitive expert' and 'pot-kettle-black', you need to look at your own posts and behaviour on this forum. You come on here like *YOU* are the only expert at all things urban and Oklahoma. You act like only your opinion matters as fact and that anybody else who has something positive to say or post something you disagree with is-a-fruit or otherwise has a complex. *You spend all day posting rants and raves* about this or that, I'll give you - some of which is somewhat constructive, about OKC should do this or that or doesn't have this or that. Then you cop an attitude to anybody who has an optimistic outlook for OKC or who opposes your stance. 
> 
> You called me out numerous times and agove, so now Im going to call you as I see it - *I see you as an arrogant, ignorant, **** anti-OKC troll* who picked on the wrong person. You may be able to do that to others, but expect a response when you post that bs to me. You are an* ignorant fool* hiding behind an internet forum - look at YOUR number of posts (especially posts per day/time) and then tell us how much of an outgoing person you are. You must have no life - You must have nothing better to do with your life other than troll the OKC Talk forum. You clearly refuse to read or try to comprehend posts from people you dislike or concepts you disagree with. 
> 
> And for the record; Im not 'trying to make people think' nor do I 'have an inferiourity complex' - *YOU DO* and apparently so does many still in Tulsa which is a shame. That is a fact, and I have and will continue to stand up for OKC whenever I see someone like you trolling ignorant superficial bs against OKC.
> 
> I AM more of a 'resident expert' than you are pal, I am older than you, have been to and resided in both OKC and Tulsa, and have never understood the hate Tulsans have always had against OKC back in the day (before you were born) and some of that 'Tulsa hate/entitlement' persists today, and you Spartan are a major catalyst on this forum for that. Take the blinders off and see the posts even on this thread. There are a number of OTHER expats and city residents who have said, like me, that the apparent fued tends to be one-sided from Tulsa like it has always been. You call ME out because I say it? Why didn't you attack others and call them 'inferior complex'?
> ...


Seek help. Now. Talk about scary...

P.S. You _could_ send me a PM if you like.





> Mods might as well just delete/lock this thread...


They should have from post 1. Idiotic thread is idiotic.

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## Easy180

> My God this thread is stupid. Tulsa is not bitter about the OKC Thunder. My gosh. And really, you think Wichita has a bigger fan base than Tulsa? Visit Tulsa and walk around, you'll see a ton of Thunder shirts. I honesty believe the tide has turned on the whole "bitter city" thing. OKC seems to be worse than Tulsa now. Get over yourselves (some of you) and move on to something more productive.


This seems to be pretty accurate...Lived in Tulsa for two years enjoyed it and didn't hear a peep about OKC

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## ljbab728

A local news station interviewed a fan outside the arena tonight before the Thunder game.  He was from Tulsa and drove to OKC without a ticket hoping to get one before it started.  He mentioned that he had never really been a basketball fan before.  Evidently the OKC name didn't drive him away.  LOL

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## Pete

I'm locking this thread and probably should have done so from the outset.

There is a way to discuss the obvious rivalry between the state's two largest cities but this thread started off badly and was doomed from the beginning.

I've leaving it (rather than deleting) because there were so good points made, but in the future let's find a less combative approach when it comes to the inevitable comparisons between two great up-and-coming cities.

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