# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Midwest City/Del City >  Professional Business Park Development (15th & Douglas)

## mmonroe

This is a few months old, but none the less.

Professional business park fills need, MWC developer says - Eastword News - Midwest City, OK

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## bombermwc

unfortunately, it's a strip mall, he just HOPES to attract that type of tenant. If it were a traditional office building like M.D. Tower, it would go a lot further to keep it professional. Betcha that the lots end up with more of those damned house-type structures...bleh

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## Drake

> unfortunately, it's a strip mall, he just HOPES to attract that type of tenant. If it were a traditional office building like M.D. Tower, it would go a lot further to keep it professional. Betcha that the lots end up with more of those damned house-type structures...bleh


What leads you to say this is strip mall?

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## mmonroe

it does seem kind of small with the number of parking spaces...

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## bombermwc

Is it a building with a bunch of glass vista walls where the suites all face the parking lot? That's a strip mall. Just because the developer WANTS to put professionals in it, 1 - doesn't mean that's who is going to buy a lease and 2 - doesn't change that the place is still a strip mall. And remember, the article mentions lots. The rendering above is just one of those lots POSSIBLE structures. If someone buys the lot, they can put in more of those stupid house structures like countless dentists and insurance offices.

Here's a good strip mall test. If you take out the lawyers office and gut the space back down, can a nail salon go in the same spot and it not be weird? If so, you built a strip mall.

The old Locke Wholesale building on Midwest next to McDonalds (where Sprint is) is a real mirror of this place. It's a small structure, but the tenants inside could be anything. MiddlePoint on Douglas is actually the same exact concept as this, just across the street and on a larger scale. It's currently mostly medical, but they could all convert to little shops just the same....ie a strip mall.

You want to call it NOT a strip mall, then turn the suite doors to the inside. THAT is step 1 to making it a professional building. Think of a physician's building at a hospital. Or really any office structure out there. A hotel is less strip mall than this thing. At least with them facing inside, you don't have the option of it turning into a nail salon. From the developer's point of view, it leaves them open to be able to have those nail salons in the future. But to call it a professional building....meh, just lipstick on a pig and yet ANOTHER strip mall in MWC.

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## Drake

So you want something built that there is very little market demand for in this area and would not be economically feasible for the developer. 

Have you have any idea how much money has been spent and is being spent bring that piece of dead property out of the flood zone and installing proper drainage? Then you want a speculative multi story office "professional" building built there on top of that? 

Doctors, attorneys, insurance agents accountants don't want to lease space in office buildings. With commercial lending rates at an all time low, they want to build their own buildings and not throw money on a lease

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## mmonroe

The article implies that the developer wants a professional building and office space, but what we've seen from similar projects, we get these small $125k houses that they call "office buildings".  

Before Pablanos there was a golf shop and driving range.  A lot of dirt was trucked in to level and elevate that space for correcting the flood plane, so the amount needed to "spend" to do so has already been done.  This is not a professional building, but a strip mall.

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## bombermwc

Well see what the developer is saying is that this is something MWC was lacking. So he thinks that this is something needed in the community.

I'm not really concerned with how much the developer spends to bring the land up. If they want to do that, it's part of the cost they have to absorb for developing that piece of land. They can always choose to move to another location. In case you missed it, Dell built on an old land fill on 15th and Portland. They had a LOT more to worry about than this little plot.

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## Drake

> The article implies that the developer wants a professional building and office space, but what we've seen from similar projects, we get these small $125k houses that they call "office buildings".  
> 
> Before Pablanos there was a golf shop and driving range.  A lot of dirt was trucked in to level and elevate that space for correcting the flood plane, so the amount needed to "spend" to do so has already been done.  This is not a professional building, but a strip mall.


It was a driving range with no buildings. A driving range was one of the few uses for it. You have any idea how much dirt has been put in that spot since the range closed to elevate it so they allow building on it?

Obviously spoken from someone that has never built or developed anything or has no clue about engineering. FEMA nor the city does not let you truck some dirt in and call it all good.

What do you think engineers costs? What do you think bulldozer work costs? 
What do think concreting the drainage & putting in that bridge that costs? 
How much time & money you think it costs to get all the proper permits and hoops that the city makes you jump through - much of which requires attorney work?  

If you think those buildings cost $125K to build I don't know what to tell you. 


So we have all those costs above + the land acquisition that already has been spent on this piece of dirt with no income.

But you & Bomber are going to sit behind your computer and piss on a project that you have very little real information on. Typical

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## Drake

> Well see what the developer is saying is that this is something MWC was lacking. So he thinks that this is something needed in the community.
> 
> *I'm not really concerned with how much the developer spends to bring the land up. If they want to do that, it's part of the cost they have to absorb for developing that piece of land. They can always choose to move to another location. In case you missed it, Dell built on an old land fill on 15th and Portland. They had a LOT more to worry about than this little plot.*


*
*

Of course message board RE developers don't concern yourself with pesky details feasibility and like actual costs.

WTH does the Dell project have to do with this? I'm sure if you had occupant like Dell ready to occupy a building like that it would be a little easier to spend money on the land development. 

Kind of plays into my point. This guy is spending a lot of money to improve a previously worthless parcel on speculation. But you are upset because he has the opportunity to recoup some of his investment by selling off pieces to medical groups. I'm sure his bankers would disagree with your view.

But lets build a professional building in MWC and lease it out. Ask Joe Atkinson how well that works in MWC

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## bombermwc

Whoa there grumpy pants. Lets tackle these....

Dell had more than one site in mind. One was on the north side and would have cost far less to develop. Secondly, Dell, not the city, did the dirt work on the current site. They spent months bringing in dirt and force compacting the land. They also had to pour the pilings deeper because it was a landfill. It actually cost them MORE to build where they are now...which is across the street from a low income housing project as well. In most aspects, the current site was the less-desirable option. However, it did have "river"front (it's still really a creek there since it's not very wide until further downstream) property though and room to grow in an area that COULD be a big player. What does it have to do with it? It's a CHOICE by the developer to spend more of their own money on a project because of the location. That is exactly what Jeff Johnson would be doing and it's his CHOICE. There's even a more suitable plot on Douglas on the other side of the nursery lot that's been built up for FREE by residents dumping dirt there. That area has been raised a good 20 feet with no cost to the developer.

So this guy isn't spending a "ton of money" on dirt work. If there is any infrastructure going in, the city does that (like drainage), utilities do their thing, etc. Every project has some level of dirt work to be done to prep the site. But it's the choice of this developer to put it where it is, so no, I'm not going to feel bad for him having to do it. He chose to build there with all of that in mind. No one forced him to build there as opposed to somewhere else. Heck, if it's professional building, why not go in on the perfectly flat vacant lots on 29th just east of Douglas?...former R/V shop. 

Atkinson didn't build anything, he rehabbed a building that was poorly designed for ANYTHING because of the way the thing was built. Not only that, North Star is some of the more shortsighted and moronic people around. They'd rather let a site sit empty for a decade than negotiate a price. They love to complain about wanting a certain type of tenant, and then roll over for Family Dollar while letting Michaels and Old Navy slip through their fingers. Every project Joe does is worse than the last. He holds absolutely no candle to his Bill and is only working off of the name. He's had failed project after another in the area that you probably don't even know existed because it never even got to dirt work. Copper Creek is a perfect example of that kind of crap. You can thank he and his team for totally screwing up Uptown. Don't be fooled by the faade of the structures. None of it is nearly as "new" as they look, which is why no one wants to move in. A new fake brick front doesn't change the way the roof leaks or the way the 1960's design causes non-contiguous space (ie a pole in the middle of the room). Bad HVAC, insufficient electrical, etc. He would have been better off dozing all three plots, and creating a master plan that made much better use of the land...but nope. Now we just have a lot of empty square footage.

There IS a demand for professional space in MWC. Why do you think so many of those stupid little house projects go in? But no one is building a structure that does it properly. If you build a class A space, people come to it. They build these stupid little things because they don't have any other options. Some dentist decides, "I want a new place" and there's no where to move in to, so he builds a house. We all suffer for that because when he moves out, "house" structures can't exactly be re-purposed. You can't gut one of those like you can commercial space. In 30 years, you're either going to have to bulldoze that house or hope another dentist moves in. My bet, is that you'll find yourself with a whole lot of empty house structures.

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## Drake

After reading your first paragraph I still have no idea what a project with a company like Dell has any relevance to a project like this. Its comparing apples to oranges.

As far as your 2nd paragraph goes, its my whole point. If there is any infrastructure work going on? Are you kidding me? NO, the city does not pay for the drainage work on a private site. That is a cost to the deveolper.
He is not developing one of the other sites you mention because he doesn't own those sites. That usually is kind of an important factor when doing a development. With your comments its apparent you are not the well versed in actual development costs. 

Nobody is asking you feel bad for anybody. I was just trying to shed some light on this particular project and why it wouldn't be feasible or smart to build your ideal professional building. I see former dead piece of unusable land that somebody is taking the financial risk to develop. These projects have to work financially.

He already owns the land. He could just let it sit there. Would you rather that happen?

You are also wrong on these "stupid house projects". There is more demand for those than places to build. The people want ownership of their own places. They are trying to get out from leasing from someone else. For $350K + they can do that. You think these dentists are thinking "boy I sure would rather lease a place instead of building my own place where I can build equity" - I assure the demand is high for those structures. Office space in buildings? Not so much

I agree with you in that I would love see some office buildings like you are talking about. Maybe it will happen. But I haven't heard one peep about anyone trying to develop anything like that. There might be a reason

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## mmonroe

Drake... you know nothing about me, my knowledge, or my history.  Thanks for judging.  

Do you have a level of commitment to this project or are you just running your mouth?

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## Drake

> Drake... you know nothing about me, my knowledge, or my history.  Thanks for judging.  
> 
> Do you have a level of commitment to this project or are you just running your mouth?


I have zero level of commitment in the project but I have do have a knowledge of the project. I also know that the developer does do quality projects. So I'm not the running at the mouth.

I admit I simultaneously get a laugh and irritated a segment of these message boards that seem to piss on every project & developer that comes down the pipeline. There is very little regard for any financially viability of projects. There is reason so many of these projects never happen or get off the ground. There is a large amount of financial risk & time involved. Its not some fantasy world out there where banks are throwing endless money at speculative commercial projects 

You and Bomber are certainly entitled to your opinion. I have read this board long enough that I know what Bomber's view is on the office building. He is consistent and I can appreciate that. It's his opinion and it doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. 

Again I was pointing on out that you might try and look at is ever going to financially viable for a site and the behind the scenes costs that go into these projects before actual construction begins.From reading the preceding posts, it does not appear that this fully grasped. There are very few developers in this part of town capable and that are willing to do this kind of project

What I see being platted & built is an office park with covenants and restrictions, geared towards medical groups and other professional services . You guys sound like its bunch of tilt up construction 3 bay buildings.

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## mmonroe

While I do NOT know Jeff Johnson personally, I am familiar with his "development" work.  

You have missed the mark entirely on why "Bomber" and I do NOT qualify this as a professional building, what I see instead is quick development to fill the influx of medical doctors/specialists who need cheap office space. (If you haven't noticed lately, Mercy is increasing the number of small offices around MWC) 

Mr. Johnson is a business man, while he says he wants to help MWC because he lives here, he's also trying to make money, if it's not, then why is he a business man?  

I lived on the other side of Strahorns Nursery before it was taken over by the driving range and later plablanos, then later dirt work that brought in the burger place and later henry hudsons.  I can say that for over 20 years they have been bringing dirt into that area and raising the elevation.  Because of this, the cost NOW with development work would not be near as much as it would have been, so I still stand by my previous statement.   As a long time resident of MWC, I know I personally would like to see an actually professional building but I also know that level of risk in dealing with such a large development is not something that some of these so called developers are going to stick it out for.  What we have seen is what we call the home office buildings.  These are what we refer to as the "125k" houses.  NOT that they LITERALLY cost $125,000 (obviously any idiot knows there is more to home/building development besides just the cost of the building materials).  

These "House" developments line the street on Harmony Drive and Post Road.  Sure the aesthetics of the building would look beautiful for a house, but an office environment?  You built a house and placed a parking lot in front, that doesn't scream professional office building to me, but cheap ass business owners who I would think twice in doing business with.  (Call me snobby, but it it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a damn duck.)  

These "House" developments do nothing to address the real need for office space, but only place a bandaid on it.  These buildings will not last over time but will be around for 40-50 years then be gone.

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## bombermwc

Well Drake has made it abundantly clear that he's not interested in anything other than his opinion, so i'm not going to waste my time on it anymore. 

MMonroe, I believe we both see eye to eye on this one. 

Time will be the judge. We've already seen the pattern develop in other areas of MWC, so Drake will soon see what will come of it. If i had a choice, i think i'd rather that land be returned to natural tree growth. It's one of the last refuges of original forrest in MWC left undeveloped. Cleaning the air would do more for us than this crap.

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## Drake

> Well Drake has made it abundantly clear that he's not interested in anything other than his opinion, so i'm not going to waste my time on it anymore. 
> 
> MMonroe, I believe we both see eye to eye on this one. 
> 
> Time will be the judge. We've already seen the pattern develop in other areas of MWC, so Drake will soon see what will come of it. If i had a choice, i think i'd rather that land be returned to natural tree growth. It's one of the last refuges of original forrest in MWC left undeveloped. Cleaning the air would do more for us than this crap.


I am with you about being done with it. I guess you missed the part where I mentioned that you had your opinion and i respected that. Apparently I'm not afforded the same courtesy but that's OK.

I have grown up in this area and been in the real estate business for over 20 years and my family has for over 40 years. So I'm not too worried about your doom & gloom predictions  

You guys don't seem to concern yourself things like cost, feasibility and zoning. Just sit back are hurl insults and every project and developer in town. That is always productive. With this particular project we have one small newspaper article to go off of. In 3 years I might agree with you 

You guys are like those two old men in the balcony of the muppet show. <just a joke>

Again I was the one that stated it was OK to have different opinions. This does not seem sit well with you.

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## mmonroe

I don't care either way, I've ran more than a few businesses in my life time and i've been in Marketing for the better part of my 20's, i'm very familiar with costs, zoning, infrastructure, platting, you name it.  Again, the "125k" reference is to the style not the overall actual cost or TCO if you prefer.

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## RadicalModerate

> I don't care either way, I've ran more than a few businesses in my life time and i've been in Marketing for the better part of my 20's, i'm very familiar with costs, zoning, infrastructure, platting, you name it.  Again, the "125k" reference is to the style not the overall actual cost or TCO if you prefer.


I don't care either way, either, yet I would suggest that "I've run more than a few businesses" would be preferable to "I've ran more than a few businesses" in terms of selling Drake, et.al., for example, on veracity of apparent knowledge of matters financial.  Hopefully, whether it's "ran" or "run", the end of the sentence doesn't include the phrase "into the ground."  Just a thought . . . carry on . . .

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## mmonroe

oh hell, can't expect to get everything right after a few drinks

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## bombermwc

I was going to leave it, but i just can't after that. Drake, you want the same curtousey, they don't make your entire discussion a "you're wrong, i'm right" then. No one says you have to agree, and if you've been reading my posts, you see how often i add that phrase as a preface to my discussions (it's just my take and opinion like everyone else here). 

FYI - i dont piss on every project. I can leave that to Spartan. But i also dont feel like it's wrong for me to want more out of a project in my hometown. In a place where there are as many strip centers as people (at least it feels that way), we've got a vacant mall primed for "professional redevleopment", we have house after house of spec space that can never be re-purposed, so yes i want this to be better than that. And yes, i'm dissapointed in what they've created as a plan. Like so many others, the masterplan is just that and masterplans almost NEVER come to fruition....and not for the better. Quality is always sacrificed for cost because developers all want a quick ROI these days and dont have a commitment to the city to make it better, but take a little longer to get the ROI. This is a perfect example of that. So yes, i'm frustrated with this plan. I'm frustrated with the city for just accepting everything that comes across the table without any critcism just because they think they might scare someone away. And i'm frustrated with the citizens for accepting low-par because they've been told over the years that they shouldn't expect better in MWC because it's MWC. 

So when someone says they're excited about a strip center, yeah, im gonna get defensive and probably a bit on the offense side too. If you dont push for better, it won't come.

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## bombermwc

Anyone know if this fell down the pooper? I can't say i would be sad if it did. Obviously i'm not a supporter of it, so i'd be happy to see it fold. There really hasn't been any work done on the lot. In fact, more work has been going on on the other end than with this mess.

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## bombermwc

Hey, you know what quality product that is actually getting built on this land? MORE STORAGE UNITS YAY!!!! Major Sarcasm. 

FAIL before you even start.

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## mmonroe

Maybe the ol' developer reads these posts and got mad.  YEAH STORAGE UNITS!!  Now only if we can tie in a pawn shop, a check cashing place and a liquor store, then we'd have the best corner in all of OK County!

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## Drake

Just an FYI, the storage units being built are not in this development, nor are being built by the developer.

Separate land and separate owner/developer.

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## bombermwc

Well im sure they're going to make the so called "professional" space less strip-mall like.....not.

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## bombermwc

There is at least finally some construction activity going on with the development. Soon enough we'll see what sort of strip mall they build. Countdown to nail salon.....

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## mmonroe

Liquor store, Nail Salon, Check Cashing and Loans, Cricket... you know.. the usuals.

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## Drake

I know that two of the first two buildings are both medical buildings, one being an office for a  Ear, Nose & Throat  and the other being another Dr group (not sure of specialty, if any)

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## Drake

> Liquor store, Nail Salon, Check Cashing and Loans, Cricket... you know.. the usuals.


Hey it is MWC

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## mmonroe

I honestly feel like you can judge the quality of a community by the types of "well known brand names" that choose to place a brick and mortar location at and the direct correlation to the areas medium income levels.

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## mmonroe

> I know that two of the first two buildings are both medical buildings, one being an office for a  Ear, Nose & Throat  and the other being another Dr group (not sure of specialty, if any)


Why are we popping up with so many medical places.. i'd prefer (this is what we call an opinion) to keep them all in the same area.  i.e. Reno and Midwest Blvd.




> Hey it is MWC


Unfortunately that is the view most people have of Midwest City.

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## bombermwc

Even if they move to a different area, it would be nice to put them together....like that huge plot of land at 15th and Sooner. 

Anyone else notice the Garpette Soda grade has been torn down? I wonder if the bank that bought Sooner Rose owned that land too?

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## Drake

[QUOTE=mmonroe;823271]Why are we popping up with so many medical places.. i'd prefer (this is what we call an opinion) to keep them all in the same area.  i.e. Reno and Midwest Blvd.

Its a free market economy. You can't make a business stay in an area. 

This is the market right now for developers. Many doctors and the medical groups want their own buildings that they own. They don't want to be stuck in a medical plaza/tower and paying rent.

This type of development allows them to purchase a building lot and build their own building. Most don't seem to be interested in being over in that part of MWC anymore. Not sure of any good reason to be over in that area of town any longer.

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## mmonroe

Thats why it's called an opinion.

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## bombermwc

Drake - and that's MWC ended up with countless crappy house-office structures. And the city was short-sighted in allowing permits to be granted for them. 30 years from now, we'll have vacant structures that can't be re-developed into a new layout because their stick structures. Once one of these is a dentist office, it's a dentist office forever...in the same layout...forever. EXTREME pet peeve of mine.

The ROI on one of these doesn't make sense either. It's not like owning a home where you're going to be there 20-30 years and things will pay for themselves. That rarely happens in a business and when it does, there has been so much capital sacrificed that the structure tends to not get updated with time. Check out the McBride Optometry office on Parklawn as a great example....still dated to the 60s inside and out. Leasing space frees the business from the hassle of maintenance, which is HUGE. Of course someone like a dentist doesn't care because it's not like he's going to be actually doing anything, he'll push it on his staff to handle. 

And to show im not hypocritical on this, I had been seeing Dr. Kendrick for my dentist after insurance changes at my office forced me out of my preferred dentist's practice, which i had been going to for 10 years. In the last year, he built one of these very structures on Post. He already overcharged in my opinion because i always had a bill left-over from a visit after insurance. He's the only dentist that I've EVER had a bill like that from for regular cleaning work. And guess what, after the move, his prices went up again. I wonder why? Could it be that he has a new mortgage to pay and loans for all the equipment he bought for the new place (cause we can't be reusing anything now). Plus, since i've only seen him in person a total of 10 minutes in 3 years, what's the point? He wasn't even at the office most times i came in! I voiced all of these concerns when i told them that i wouldn't be back. I doubt it made any difference, but it just points out how these things DO affect the customers/patients. 

My previous dentist made a similar move from MD Tower to Post (Utech) several years ago. He did NOT pass the cost difference on to the patients though. He outgrew the space at MD Tower, which was quickly taken by another tenant. I wasn't terribly excited about them vacating the space to a "house" either, but at least they did right by the patients. 

In terms of spaces like MD Tower, the economy of scale in the development means it can actually be cheaper per sq ft to be in a consolidated space. Parking/HVAC/etc are all more efficiently used as well. Heaven forbid you get out of your car and walk to the office on the 3rd floor though instead of walking 10 feet to the door in the "house". But that's another pet peeve of mine on the laziness of people these days.

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## bombermwc

Looks like they've MAJORLY changed their design. Not only did they toss the strip mall design....and you will never tell me that isn't what it was...and have instead put in a rather large "house" structure. I'm not excited about seeing a house structure, but it's large enough that i'll take it over yet another strip mall.

The whole thing is still a missed opportunity IMHO, but I'm not the one putting my cash into it.

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## Drake

These are individual lots for sale for development. Other than certain parametners to be followed, the owners of teh lots are free to build any style of building they want.

The other lot being developed is a completely different style than the one currently under construction

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## bombermwc

So their supposed masterplan was a complete waste of time then huh? Why am I not surprised.

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## Drake

> So their supposed masterplan was a complete waste of time then huh? Why am I not surprised.


Good lord. I tried to steer this back just to general information from what I know about the project and ignore and stay above the snarky remarks.

The worst part is made you have wrong assumption after wrong assumption about this project. For some reason this project really seems to piss you off. 

What master plan have you reviewed? What I read in article that the developer was developing the property for individual lots to be marketed and sold to professional services.

A conceptual drawing of a building is not a master plan. I would assume the master plan is what was stated in the original article and what appears to be happening

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## bombermwc

For some reason the forum is doing weird crap with comments today...going italic or just loading weird, so if this looks funny,....not my fault.

It gets on my nerves because I get so frustrated with the city approving crap designs like this over and over and over. I'm 100% "house" structures because of the million reasons I've listed here. They're just horrible. I'm tired of seeing strip mall after strip mall (and crap developers creating one and trying to call it something it isn't). Middle Point is a great example.....it's a freaking strip mall that happens to have more professional tenants TODAY. My nail shop test does a pretty good job of sniffing out that kind of crap.

What I want is a GOOD development to come along and put in something that's not crap. You want a professional building? Awesome. Get out there and build a new M.D. Tower or an Arvest Bank tower (del city). I'm continually pissed that the hospital continued down this same pattern and never developed the old Target into the consolidated professional space it was supposed to be and that they never built their 6 floor professional building on campus. Because it would have meant a bunch of crap like Bowling Green would never have been added on to like it was and several of these "house" things wouldn't have been built and we could have seen other things be built instead. 

This one frustrates me so much because of the way they tried to present it, knowing full well that it wasn't going to be that. And it's a prime example of the kind of utter crap that's being allowed blanket approval just for the sake of things being built.

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