# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  Bricktown Strategic Plan

## Urban Pioneer

Here is a Jpeg of the handout given to council today.



I would strongly recommend watching the video presentation by  AJ Kirkpatrick and Russell Claus.  The video of that segment of council ought to be retrieved and imbedded if someone knows how to do it.  Lot's of dialogue and content.

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## Urban Pioneer

Interesting dialogue with Greenwell and Russell Claus with regard to the Bricktown Urban Design Commission and recent issue with the parking design.  Lots of discussion between Shadid and AJ regarding the new streetcar system and Intermodal hub planned for Bricktown as well.

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## Steve

For what it's worth, I was completely bewildered by Russell Claus' claim that the Chris Johnson story wasn't reported right by "local media." There are only two of us covering it - myself and Brianna Bailey - and we've both delved into the very issues Claus claimed wasn't represented in local coverage. Have Bailey or I left any doubt that the committee does not agree with the idea of creating parking lots along the canal?

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## Urban Pioneer

Steve, I thought it was weird too.  It sounded more like politics as usual.  "Blame somebody else when things get gritty."

Anyways, glad you are covering the Strategic Plan and grand developments that will help Bricktown maintain its relevance in downtown renaissance.  And Chad, it is great to see a book store emerge in the marketplace and Guestroom find another outlet!

*OKC CENTRAL BLOGGING*

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...room-part-one/

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...room-part-two/

*NEWSOK ARTICLE*

*Study suggests more emphasis on retail, housing for Bricktown to prosper*
The slow emergence of retail along the Bricktown Canal in Oklahoma City is seen as one of the key steps toward the area not being reduced to a restaurant and bar district, according to a study released Tuesday.

BY STEVE LACKMEYER slackmeyer@opubco.com    Comment on this article 1
Published: October 19, 2011

The latest retail offerings popping up in Bricktown likely will not be seen as a threat to Penn Square Mall or other popular shopping areas around town.

After all, the addition of an outlet of Edmond's Signature Books in the Bricktown Marketplace along the Bricktown Canal only occupies a few hundred square feet. And when Guestroom Records opens

Read more: http://newsok.com/study-suggests-mor...#ixzz1bCGSwPlj


*Read the Bricktown Report*

Summary Recommendations for Bricktown by NEWSOK

The Bricktown Strategic Plan lists several actions that can be taken by property owners and merchants, including moving the Bricktown Association into a more visible location, collective marketing and working together on a master plan. The plan also suggests several actions that can be pursued by the city:

Add curbside parking, especially along Reno Avenue between the Bricktown “core” and Lower Bricktown.

Create a pedestrian pathway from Deep Deuce to Bricktown through the Main Street surface parking lots.

Reconnect Oklahoma Avenue from NE 2 in Deep Deuce to Main Street.

Add sidewalks and lighting along Russell M. Perry Avenue between Deep Deuce and Bricktown.

Encourage mixed-use development with parking.

Consider eliminating automatic alcohol and beverage zoning in east Bricktown.

Strengthen parking lot design standards, require existing lots to upgrade to any new standards.

Examine existing rules prohibiting dog walking along the canal, limitations on street vendors.

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## betts

There's a prohibition on dog walking along the canal?  I didn't know about that.  We regularly walk our dogs along the canal.  We're very careful to clean up after them, if needbe, so perhaps a prohibition on not picking up after your dog would be more pedestrian friendly.  

I'm all for encouraging mixed use development, but how do we encourage that?  We've all been saying we'd like it and I don't see that having any effect.  Is there some sort of stimulus the city could create for Bricktown to encourage development?  

I'm not sure I'm that excited about reconnecting Oklahoma.  With the creation of LEVEL and the  Aloft hotel, street parking for people who want to park in Deep Deuce and walk into Bricktown will be severely limited.  It would remove the nicer of our two pocket parks and increase through traffic.  I'm pretty happy with the Walnut Bridge and Broadway being the access options.  But, I would like a set of steps going down what we call the "cliff route" into Bricktown, which is behind the pocket park where Oklahoma would connect.  Most of us who live in my part of Deep Deuce use that to get into Bricktown, and when it rains or there's not much vegetation on the hill, it can be a little tricky to descend.

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## lasomeday

> There's a prohibition on dog walking along the canal?  I didn't know about that.  We regularly walk our dogs along the canal.  We're very careful to clean up after them, if needbe, so perhaps a prohibition on not picking up after your dog would be more pedestrian friendly.  
> 
> I'm all for encouraging mixed use development, but how do we encourage that?  We've all been saying we'd like it and I don't see that having any effect.  Is there some sort of stimulus the city could create for Bricktown to encourage development?  
> 
> I'm not sure I'm that excited about reconnecting Oklahoma.  With the creation of LEVEL and the  Aloft hotel, street parking for people who want to park in Deep Deuce and walk into Bricktown will be severely limited.  It would remove the nicer of our two pocket parks and increase through traffic.  I'm pretty happy with the Walnut Bridge and Broadway being the access options.  But, I would like a set of steps going down what we call the "cliff route" into Bricktown, which is behind the pocket park where Oklahoma would connect.  Most of us who live in my part of Deep Deuce use that to get into Bricktown, and when it rains or there's not much vegetation on the hill, it can be a little tricky to descend.


It would be nice if they had the residents of the two there at the meeting. 

Also, zoning would be a  way to require mixed use.

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## Doug Loudenback

Here is the AJ Kirkpatrick video clip from yesterday's council meeting. YouTube arbitrarily selected David Greenwell's image as the starting image, but that should change since I've selected manually AJ's image instead ... that small matter should be rectified later today.




Actually, there were some other interesting matters at yesterday's council meeting, as well, and these items will be covered in a separate omnibus thread covering the 10/18/2011 council meeting as soon as all videos have been uploaded to YouTube.

ON EDIT: See the other videos from the 10/18/2011 council meeting at http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=27555.

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## Just the facts

> Also, zoning would be a  way to require mixed use.


Zoning doesn't generate mixed-use.  A lack of zoning controls generates mixed-use.  Land use is over-regulated.  The first thing they should do is eliminate all parking requirements associated with new development.  Reconnecting Oklahoma back up would also be a big step in the right direction because it will eventually connect back to the new boulevard when I-40 is relocated.  Reno and Sheridan should be reduced to two lanes and diagonal parking installed.  Reno should also have a grass median installed.

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## Architect2010

You basically reiterated the same steps the Strategic Plan outlined.

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## lasomeday

> Zoning doesn't generate mixed-use.  A lack of zoning controls generates mixed-use.  Land use is over-regulated.  The first thing they should do is eliminate all parking requirements associated with new development.  Reconnecting Oklahoma back up would also be a big step in the right direction because it will eventually connect back to the new boulevard when I-40 is relocated.  Reno and Sheridan should be reduced to two lanes and diagonal parking installed.  Reno should also have a grass median installed.


Zoning can generate mixed use.  I am not sure if zoning is the solution for Bricktown, but a change in zoning needed for all of OKC.  The zoning in OKC kills mixed use and promotes automobiles.

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## Rover

Zoning promotes automobiles?  You are kidding right?  Houston has had very little zoning and it is one of the most spread out and automobile congested cities in America.  LA, the same.  This is pretty simplistic overview.

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## EBAH

I think he's trying to say the specific style of zoning used in most of Oklahoma City promotes automobile use because it stands in the way of high density commercial/residential mixed development.

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## Rover

In what parts of town does the zoning prohibit high density and or mixed use?  And when has it been denied?  There are a few instances I can specifically recall...one at 36th and Bdway when the neighborhood objected so strongly that it wasn't approved, and secondly, the Bob Funk proposal in btown.  I can't recall zoning prohibiting any and I believe that zoning changes can be applied for anyway.

When people WANT to give up their autos they will.  When people WANT to quit living in the suburbs they will.  To claim the use of autos is caused by zoning is wrong.

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## Just the facts

Rover - there are tons of zoning regulations that not only promote automobile use - but requires it.  OKC requires X parking spaces for each residential unit, per 1000 sq feet of office space, per 1000 sq feet of retail space, per movie screen, etc...  Zoning laws prevent bars and schools for being located near each other so you can't have a neighborhood school and a neighborhood bar.  Landscaping plans practically prevent walking between adjacent developments without having to jump rows of bushes, walk through flower beds, or have the path totally blocked by a retention pond.  I didn't even realize how bad it was until I started riding a bike, I suggest you give it a try.  It will probably change your mind.

When walking or riding a bike the phrase “You can’t get there from here” takes on a whole new meaning.

Segregated zoning absolutely has required the use of a car.  Residential pod development (aka subdivision) funnels all traffic into usually 1 collector road that makes trying to cross it a death wish.  And while Houston might not a have a formal zoning code, it has instead a land-use code.  They regulate minimum lots size, minimum impervious area ratios, etc...


OKC has non-buildable lots.  Why?

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## BG918

> Reconnecting Oklahoma back up would also be a big step in the right direction *because it will eventually connect back to the new boulevard* when I-40 is relocated.


We assume that is still the case.  It would definitely make sense to have Oklahoma as the first at-grade intersection on the boulevard from the east.  Connecting Bricktown to Deep Deuce all the way to NE 10 is important IMO as that is the main spine of new development on the east side of downtown.

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## Rover

> Rover - there are tons of zoning regulations that not only promote automobile use - but requires it.  OKC requires X parking spaces for each residential unit, per 1000 sq feet of office space, per 1000 sq feet of retail space, per movie screen, etc...  Zoning laws prevent bars and schools for being located near each other so you can't have a neighborhood school and a neighborhood bar.  Landscaping plans practically prevent walking between adjacent developments without having to jump rows of bushes, walk through flower beds, or have the path totally blocked by a retention pond.  I didn't even realize how bad it was until I started riding a bike, I suggest you give it a try.  It will probably change your mind.
> 
> When walking or riding a bike the phrase “You can’t get there from here” takes on a whole new meaning.
> 
> Segregated zoning absolutely has required the use of a car.  Residential pod development (aka subdivision) funnels all traffic into usually 1 collector road that makes trying to cross it a death wish.  And while Houston might not a have a formal zoning code, it has instead a land-use code.  They regulate minimum lots size, minimum impervious area ratios, etc...
> 
> 
> OKC has non-buildable lots.  Why?


Having a parking lot doesn't REQUIRE people to have a car. You confuse cause and effect.  What you are implying is the opposite.  People naturally want to drive so FORCE them to leave their cars at home if they want to partake of the activity in that building.  LOL.  

Not serving alcohol in the same area as a school is not a zoning issue, it is a state alcohol law.  Don't see how that makes people drive cars.

Landscaping doesn't prohibit walking, but not having sidewalks or bike lanes is the issue.  Not having mass trans is the issue.  

You have to learn to correctly associate cause and effect.  You continuously confuse the two.  Associating two things, even if they have the same trends, doesn't mean one causes the other.

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## Just the facts

It is called a facilitator.

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## Spartan

> For what it's worth, I was completely bewildered by Russell Claus' claim that the Chris Johnson story wasn't reported right by "local media." There are only two of us covering it - myself and Brianna Bailey - and we've both delved into the very issues Claus claimed wasn't represented in local coverage. Have Bailey or I left any doubt that the committee does not agree with the idea of creating parking lots along the canal?


Well, I think we have been pretty adamant in reinforcing a bad rap if BUD approved this thing. We've been pretty hostile almost, even. However I don't think that's in play just because we all know that application is going to be denied more than likely. However, in case it is approved, our angst is there, and obviously we are standing ready to...write lots of mean things on the Internet. 

Maybe from his perspective he just sees the chain of events as BUD meets > Lackmeyer story > mean things on Internet about BUD.

However in our defense, BUD still doesn't have a great reputation and hasn't established a strong precedent EITHER way. So it's very much in limbo at the moment, and someone could probably make either argument.

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## Rover

As an outsider, it has always seemed to me that while the city has promoted a grand vision for btown the private sector has been totally fragmented and everyone out for themselves.  They give the appearance that they are only interested in their own deals and have not understood that a more coordinated plan that also works with the public plan would, in the end, benefit everyone better.  If they can agree on a strategic plan that leverages what the public has spent and they can coordinate their efforts then they can more likely insure long term success.  While I appreciate small local entrepreneurs, none of them apparently has had the resources to do anything remotely close to ground breaking.  We have pitiful development on lower btown canal and a future magnet site in the old cotton mill.  We have the old steel buildings on the east end that could be razed and provided a site for a great mixed used development done at one time that would have a dynamic effect on btown.  That takes a developer of substance and vision to pull those things off.  It won't happen a motel at a time or a few apartments at a time.  It will take decades at that rate.  We need to entice a world class developer to come in and help us fulfill a vision.

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## BDP

> To claim the use of autos is caused by zoning is wrong.


Maybe, but we wouldn't know. What our zoning does do is force you to accommodate automobiles at the expense of pedestrians. If you wanted to build a pedestrian friendly development, in many cases in OKC you could not, because the zoning MAKES you accommodate the automobile. So, really we don't know if people want to give up their automobiles and move out of the suburbs here, because we are not allowed to build for any other market except that one. 

I understand you're trying to invoke a free market argument, but there is no free market in this case. The regulations dictate that the automobile be accommodated and this is at the cost of pedestrian minded development. So, even if part of the market demanded developments that favored pedestrians, the government regulations do not allow it. So, as it is now, what people, i.e. the market wants is irrelevant, the government has decided what they want. In the face of our zoning, you can not conclude off hand that people do not want more pedestrian developments or that some do not want to give up their cars. There is no choice.

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## Rover

You mean to tell me that zoning prohibits developers from building sidewalks?  Or prohibits parking in the rear?  Or prohibits high-rise buildings?  Or prohibits mixed use developments?  Or that zoning changes can't be applied for and if they could be, they aren't allowed?  That the only reason people want the ability to travel point to point in their own way and time is because the government wants them to drive cars?  And all this time I thought I was just enjoying the freedom to choose my own way.  

This is all way off the thread topic anyway.  You all can argue the evil and stupid intentions of the government on another thread.

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## Urban Pioneer

> Here is the AJ Kirkpatrick video clip from yesterday's council meeting. YouTube arbitrarily selected David Greenwell's image as the starting image, but that should change since I've selected manually AJ's image instead ... that small matter should be rectified later today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there were some other interesting matters at yesterday's council meeting, as well, and these items will be covered in a separate omnibus thread covering the 10/18/2011 council meeting as soon as all videos have been uploaded to YouTube.
> 
> ON EDIT: See the other videos from the 10/18/2011 council meeting at http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=27555.


Thanks for posting Doug.  An interesting meeting with more to come.

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## Just the facts

I would like to get all these same people in the same room again but this time forbid using the words "automobile" and "parking" and see what kind of plan they can come up with.  It is like GM, Goodyear, and Standard Oil are financing the whole deal behind the scenes.

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## J. Pitman

We suggested that the city make parking free. That put downward pressure on the property owners that own surface lots, but refuse to develop their property.  That downward pressure would force them to find other avenues of income besides parking. This would also lure real retail. 

But, that didn't make it into the report.

Oh well.

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## Steve

Jonathan, there's nothing stopping me from putting it into my report. If you guys want to visit w/ me about this, or email me your thoughts, we'll get it out there!

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## J. Pitman

> Jonathan, there's nothing stopping me from putting it into my report. If you guys want to visit w/ me about this, or email me your thoughts, we'll get it out there!


What's your time frame?  I'm sure we'd like to participate.

I'll just PM you.

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## Just the facts

Just curious Steve, as the downtown business writer do you work out of the suburban Oklahoman building or do you have a small office downtown?

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## betts

> *Read the Bricktown Report*
> 
> Summary Recommendations for Bricktown by NEWSOK
> 
> The Bricktown Strategic Plan lists several actions that can be taken by property owners and merchants, including:
> 
> Create a pedestrian pathway from Deep Deuce to Bricktown through the Main Street surface parking lots.
> 
> Reconnect Oklahoma Avenue from NE 2 in Deep Deuce to Main Street.
> ...


When the strategic plan mentions reconnecting Oklahoma Avenue, are they talking about doing so for pedestrians or cars?  As I was walking my dog today, I was thinking about what we want for Deep Deuce.  We have three through streets into Bricktown:  Broadway, Walnut and Russell M. Perry.  Why would we want a fourth?  If we're trying to make the area more pedestrian friendly, why would we make it more automobile friendly?  Why would we spend the money to create a big bridge over the railroad when there's one at Walnut?  Oklahoma is a quiet street, which makes it great for walkers.  It's now got dedicated bike lanes as well.  Do we really want people using it as a shortcut to Bricktown, when there is already plenty of access?  So, I'm hoping I'm misreading this.

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## Just the facts

The more through streets the less congestion it makes on exsiting streets.  I could understand your pedistrian concerns if the were making Oklahoma Ave a new collector or arterial road, but it won't be.  It will be two lanes with on-street parking and a 25mph speed limit.  I also don't think you are going to see a bridge at Oklahoma Ave.  Pretty sure it will be an at-grade crossing (if a train track is put back in at all).

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## betts

There's no significant congestion on existing streets.  Even after a Thunder basketball game, or at rush hour, traffic flows very smoothly.  Again, haven't we been discussing the fact that we need to get away from catering to automobiles?  Why should we be concerned with future congestion when we hope to make the automobile less necessary downtown?  Also, I believe the Union Pacific is about to take possession of the line, and it lies immediately adjacent to a six to eight foot hill and any street would bisect the small parking lot at the west end of the Aloft hotel and the property to the west.  That would create a rather unattractive canyon with potential drainage issues and remove a very nice pocket park enjoyed by residents.  I see no need to make Oklahoma a through street, when we have 3 through streets in a five block area.

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## Doug Loudenback

> Thanks for posting Doug.  An interesting meeting with more to come.


You're very welcome.

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## Just the facts

> There's no significant congestion on existing streets.  Even after a Thunder basketball game, or at rush hour, traffic flows very smoothly.  Again, haven't we been discussing the fact that we need to get away from catering to automobiles?  Why should we be concerned with future congestion when we hope to make the automobile less necessary downtown?  Also, I believe the Union Pacific is about to take possession of the line, and it lies immediately adjacent to a six to eight foot hill and any street would bisect the small parking lot at the west end of the Aloft hotel and the property to the west.  That would create a rather unattractive canyon with potential drainage issues and remove a very nice pocket park enjoyed by residents.  I see no need to make Oklahoma a through street, when we have 3 through streets in a five block area.


Making thru streets isn't catering to automobiles and the lack of congestion is because of the existing thru streets.  The reason for multiple thru streets is to prevent traffic from building up on a single street which creates a barrier to pedestrians and bicyclist.  While traffic might not be an issue right now, a new hotel and two major apartment complexes will be coming on-line soon, with even more coming behind that.  If traffic on Walnut gets to heavy it will effectivly cut-off east Deep Duece from West Deep Deuce.  Walnut is already four lanes, it doesn't need to be a congested four lanes.

As for the park, there are plenty of places for that.

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## betts

We're going to have to agree to disagree.  As a resident of Deep Deuce, I'm strongly against this. Walnut has a light that is triggered by the pedestrian, so traffic on Walnut is not an issue for pedestrians. If Walnut is adequate on nights when there are Thunder games, I don't anticipate worse congestion from a few hundred residents and visitors.  And the alternate locations  for the park are where?

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## Rover

OMG.  There are new hotels being built in Btown and DD.  Doesn't everyone know, hotels attract cars.  We don't want cars downtown.  Maybe we should ban hotels in btown and dd.

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## wschnitt

It would be excellent if Oklahoma hooked up.

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## wschnitt

> We suggested that the city make parking free. That put downward pressure on the property owners that own surface lots, but refuse to develop their property.  That downward pressure would force them to find other avenues of income besides parking. This would also lure real retail. 
> 
> But, that didn't make it into the report.
> 
> Oh well.



Mr. Pitman,

I agree, however I think there would have to be a much greater amount of free parking than what is already there for there to be any real impact.

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## Just the facts

> Mr. Pitman,
> 
> I agree, however I think there would have to be a much greater amount of free parking than what is already there for there to be any real impact.


As we know, for a lot of people perception is reality.  If a small amount of free parking was in a highly visible location it would cause people to search out other free parking that might not be so visible.

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## betts

> OMG.  There are new hotels being built in Btown and DD.  Doesn't everyone know, hotels attract cars.  We don't want cars downtown.  Maybe we should ban hotels in btown and dd.


Being ridiculous doesn't really make your point, you know. So, if you have a logical reason for your argument, that might be a better approach.  My point was, we don't have congestion when we've got thousands of extra cars downtown on Thunder game nights.  The hotel and LEVEL apartments will add a few hundred extra cars daily, which will not overwhelm the area if thousands don't. In addition, most of the people going to the hotels and LEVEL will not be driving to their apartment or hotel from Bricktown. If they're coming to the hotel from the airport, they're on I-40, which doesn't have a Bricktown exit.  If they're driving to LEVEL, chances are they're coming from the Broadway extension or I-40, and the logical way to get to LEVEL or the Aloft from either is via Walnut. Regardless, how many people in cars are actually arriving at the hotel at any given point in time?  One or two, right.  How does that change the access requirements?  Once you're at LEVEL or the Aloft, if you want to go into Bricktown, you're going to walk.  There's no reason to drive a car, as you'll have to walk as far from your parking lot as it is into Bricktown from either. The railroad line is NOT going away, regardless of who owns it, as that's the adventure line route, or it belongs to the Union Pacific, depending on what happens.   

As far as cars downtown, I believe I've said cars aren't going away. I do not think we should ban cars.  But, I believe the people posting here actually believe in walkability.  Why spend taxpayer money to create an unnecessary piece of road just so the 10 people a day who might want to drive straight down Oklahoma into Bricktown can do so when they could go one block either way to get to Broadway or Walnut, neither of which is significantly congested any time of the day or week?  

I do think it would be nice to have a pedestrian walkway, or at least stairs down the cliff.  But, I don't believe the Union Pacific is going to allow much more, short of a fancy bridge, over their rail line.

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## wschnitt

But where are those other free spots they would find?  Downtown?  Deep Duce?

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## Just the facts

> But where are those other free spots they would find?  Downtown?  Deep Duce?


There are a ton of free parking spaces south of Reno.  Bass Pro alone has like 500 free parking spaces.  If existing City lots were converted to free there would be thousands of spaces.

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## wschnitt

Ok.  I see.  I like this plan.

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## Just the facts

> Ok.  I see.  I like this plan.


Of course, this could only apply to Bricktown parking becasue OKC is selling off it's downtown garages to companies and they plan to build new garages,  Typically those garages have been built using revenue bonds that were supposed to be paid back using revenue generated from the parking.  If they make parking free all over downtown there won't be any revenue so where would the money come from?  I am sure whatever City owner parking there is in Bricktown has already been paid for several times over.  I don't really like the idea of the City driving parking lot owners out of business by under-cutting them but something has to be done or the place will die.

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## BoulderSooner

> There's no significant congestion on existing streets.  Even after a Thunder basketball game, or at rush hour, traffic flows very smoothly.  Again, haven't we been discussing the fact that we need to get away from catering to automobiles?  Why should we be concerned with future congestion when we hope to make the automobile less necessary downtown?  Also, I believe the Union Pacific is about to take possession of the line, and it lies immediately adjacent to a six to eight foot hill and any street would bisect the small parking lot at the west end of the Aloft hotel and the property to the west.  That would create a rather unattractive canyon with potential drainage issues and remove a very nice pocket park enjoyed by residents.  I see no need to make Oklahoma a through street, when we have 3 through streets in a five block area.


i 100% agree with you that oklahoma should go be connected ... maybe paved steps and a path for pedestrians ..  but that is all ..

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## Just the facts

If it was up to me Oklahoma would be made a thru street and Walnut would be reduced to two lanes and on-street parking added.

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## betts

Why?  Walnut connects directly to the 6th St. exit off the Broadway Extension. It also connects directly to the 8th St. bridge across the Broadway extension that goes into the Research Park and over to the Health Sciences Center. Cutting it down to two lanes _would_ increase congestion on the street there.  Plus, it's already connected to Bricktown via a bridge for which people fought vigorously.  Oklahoma is only a two lane street and it's going to stay two lane because of existing buildings.   Oklahoma only connects to 10th St. and is illogical to use coming off the 6th St. exit.  As I said, making it cross the tracks at grade would create a very awkward canyon with potential drainage issues.  Thank goodness it's not up to you.

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## shane453

> Thank goodness it's not up to you.


Someone had to say it

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## Spartan

> We suggested that the city make parking free. That put downward pressure on the property owners that own surface lots, but refuse to develop their property.  That downward pressure would force them to find other avenues of income besides parking. This would also lure real retail. 
> 
> But, that didn't make it into the report.
> 
> Oh well.


Hey J. Pitman,

Have you seen the plan to re-do the parallel parking along North Broadway with new angled parking that will add about 500 new parking spots to A-Alley? How would you feel about redesigning all of the on-street parking, which could easily add hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of new spots while still being sensitive to the streetscapes... It seems like adding such a glut of free on-street parking spaces would really drive down the incentive to pave lots over. *ahem* particularly along Mickey Mantle where the on-street parking is mysteriously missing for a very long stretch, where the limos and taxis all line up during after hours.

I've always wondered if the relative disappearance of on-street parking was in some way, at any point in time, the city's part in helping out the Bricktown parking lot operators. Reno too needs to be redone, narrowed, and parking needs to be incorporated there especially. Changing it away from parallel parking to the angled parking would make an amazing difference too. 

Simply put, Bricktown is not dense enough nor crowded enough, even on Friday nights, for the parking demands to be so far ahead of the street capacity that we're paving the entire district over for new parking. Especially considering that all the hotels have made parking arrangements one way or another.

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## Spartan

> Why?  Walnut connects directly to the 6th St. exit off the Broadway Extension. It also connects directly to the 8th St. bridge across the Broadway extension that goes into the Research Park and over to the Health Sciences Center. Cutting it down to two lanes _would_ increase congestion on the street there.  Plus, it's already connected to Bricktown via a bridge for which people fought vigorously.  Oklahoma is only a two lane street and it's going to stay two lane because of existing buildings.   Oklahoma only connects to 10th St. and is illogical to use coming off the 6th St. exit.  As I said, making it cross the tracks at grade would create a very awkward canyon with potential drainage issues.  Thank goodness it's not up to you.


Betts is right about Walnut. People don't realize it, but between 5 and 5:30, Walnut handles an immense amount of traffic. It is always very congested right at the onset of rush hour.

However I am with all the others echoing the concerns about Oklahoma. I don't think Oklahoma needs to become a major artery N/S, even though the new part they just finished adjacent to A-Alley (yet across the tracks) has enormous development potential IMO, I just think Walnut is already firmly established as a major road. Soon it will be a major urban road. Soon, I think we will regard Walnut's improvement as our REAL urban "boulevard" (or perhaps Sheridan or Broadway?) as Deep Deuce continues to densify and as the C2S boulevard proves it's a huge, expensive flop to bring in suburbanized elements.

The important thing about Oklahoma however is that connecting it into the Maywood Park developments not only improves circulation and access to a relatively quiet corner of Bricktown, but it also opens up excellent development opportunities. There is some room for significant development back there, which could front a new extended Oklahoma Avenue. While we need to be careful to keep that area compatible with future transit uses, the Skirvin-CC proposal did highlight the potential development opportunities that exist which could create linkages between Bricktown and Deep Deuce. 

I understand that our resident DDers on this board such as betts have argued that there is already access because they can simply walk across the Rock Island ROW, however that is not a real linkage, and I do think those are two neighborhoods that combined really deserve dedicated, official, well-developed linkages. The Walnut bridge is excellent for auto traffic and pedestrians who want a truly breathtaking skyline view, yet it is kind of a long uninterrupted pathway which makes for an uninteresting walk aside from that breathtaking skyline view, and furthermore, you can only use it to get from Point A (Sheridan) to Point B (NE 2nd Street). 

If you're trying to get to the Wedge on NE 1st, you back track and walk two extra blocks. If you're wanting to go into that quiet corner of Bricktown I mentioned earlier, somewhere along Main Street (that area has so much potential and always has), then again backtracking and walking an extra two blocks. Should the Merc/Meineke bldg ever get converted to apartments and its residents want some pizza at the Wedge? Well that's a lot of backtracking, for a total of walking an extra 4 blocks altogether in addition to the distance from your apartment to the pizzeria.

Furthermore, Walnut Street being the only legit linkage between the neighborhood IS contributing heavily to that stretch of Main Street being such a quiet little corner of Bricktown.

----------


## betts

There is a sneaky way to the Wedge, however. If you walk down Walnut towards the bridge you can walk behind the Deep Deuce apartments there, go down the hill and you're right there.  It isn't handicapped friendly though.

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## Rover

> Being ridiculous doesn't really make your point, you know. So, if you have a logical reason for your argument, that might be a better approach.  My point was, we don't have congestion when we've got thousands of extra cars downtown on Thunder game nights.  The hotel and LEVEL apartments will add a few hundred extra cars daily, which will not overwhelm the area if thousands don't. In addition, most of the people going to the hotels and LEVEL will not be driving to their apartment or hotel from Bricktown. If they're coming to the hotel from the airport, they're on I-40, which doesn't have a Bricktown exit.  If they're driving to LEVEL, chances are they're coming from the Broadway extension or I-40, and the logical way to get to LEVEL or the Aloft from either is via Walnut. Regardless, how many people in cars are actually arriving at the hotel at any given point in time?  One or two, right.  How does that change the access requirements?  Once you're at LEVEL or the Aloft, if you want to go into Bricktown, you're going to walk.  There's no reason to drive a car, as you'll have to walk as far from your parking lot as it is into Bricktown from either. The railroad line is NOT going away, regardless of who owns it, as that's the adventure line route, or it belongs to the Union Pacific, depending on what happens.   
> 
> As far as cars downtown, I believe I've said cars aren't going away. I do not think we should ban cars.  But, I believe the people posting here actually believe in walkability.  Why spend taxpayer money to create an unnecessary piece of road just so the 10 people a day who might want to drive straight down Oklahoma into Bricktown can do so when they could go one block either way to get to Broadway or Walnut, neither of which is significantly congested any time of the day or week?  
> 
> I do think it would be nice to have a pedestrian walkway, or at least stairs down the cliff.  But, I don't believe the Union Pacific is going to allow much more, short of a fancy bridge, over their rail line.


Sorry Betts...wasn't commenting on anything you said.

I do think however that a more coordinated and thought out plan is in order for btown.  I think that future form will be better served by being proactive on deciding what kind of businesses are needed and wanted and then a coordinated recruiting effort made.  Though my sarcasm was extremely tongue in cheek, the idea that there will be more and more hotels and more and more eating establishments and more bars and clubs means there will be much more auto traffic as well.  Therefore traffic planning and parking will continue to take a high priority.  I think that at some time btown has to decide to be almost exclusively an entertainment area or a business area serving a neighborhood.  If it is just entertainment then traffic and parking will always be a problem.  Keeping as many arteries open will be the priority.  If it is there to serve as a neighborhood, then you are right in saying we have enough streets and access now.  

I also think the merchants in btown could do more to provide trams to shuttle people around.  I see this in other cities and it works well.  They are not city owned but paid for by the local businesses who want people to walk around and not go get back in their cars.  These trams replace multiple cars which would otherwise be on the streets.

Anyway, I think the master plan renewal is a good first step to get everyone moving in the same direction and hopefully coordinated with the city.

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## Urbanized

A couple of Bricktown history notes relevant to the last few posts:

There's no mystery as to why there aren't parking spaces (other than 15 minute in front of the ballpark, one disabled spot in front of Mickey's) along Mickey Mantle south of the trolley stop. When MM was lightly streetscaped and resurfaced with brick around the time the ballpark opened and canal was built, the OKC traffic folks were concerned that allowing parallel parking on the street would somehow interrupt the postcard view between canal and the ballpark. Someone decided there should be no visual clutter.

I have always thought that was a mistake. This leaves the street artificially wide and turns it into a raceway, among other things. People go down this stretch at 40-50 mph daily. It's deadly.

Parallel parking there would be fine, but the street could actually support angled parking very easily due to its width. It should be metered, however, to keep employees from day parking.

Also, regarding parking shuttles: it has been tried repeatedly (with significant effort, marketing, PR and expense from various parties), and has failed miserably every time. No ridership. There is no demand even on nights when the district is PACKED, which only bolsters the argument that the parking "issue" is mostly a red herring.

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## Steve

Urbanized is absolutely correct on the shuttles. Now, when it comes to Reno Avenue... that design is a remnant of Paul Brum thinking....

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## Urban Pioneer

> Now, when it comes to Reno Avenue... that design is a remnant of Paul Brum thinking....


It is hard to criticize Project 180.  Particularly when it is not completed.  However, I do hope, that the city is wise enough to develop a "kit of parts" that enable future projects to duplicate and extend the P180 design and precedents set there forth, to wipe out Paul Brum's dinosauric engineering relics.

However, I get the sense that city staff is on a mission to complete Project 180 and get it over with.  Hopefully, someone will stick around long enough afterward to put a binder together of exactly what makes up a P180 street for future use and dissemination.  

I grabbed a manufacturers label and a scrap chip of charcoal brick from a street construction site today in hopes of doing my own P180 sidewalk outside the slated area of renovation as I could find no information readily available in hopes to duplicate some of this.

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## Just the facts

Everyone loves new urbanism until it comes to their street, then suburban NIMBYism kicks in.  As Spartan pointed out, traffic along Walnut is only going to get heavier and faster unless traffic calming techniques are implemented now.  Do you really Walnut to be a major urban boulevard through a residential area?  Oklahoma Ave would connect OKC Boulevard, Lower Bricktown, Upper Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Flatiron District and 10th Ave Corridoor all with out cars having to make left turns.  Since the entire street would be two lanes with on-street parking, traffic will remain slow and the area will remain pedestrian and bicycle friendly.  It will also encourage in-fill through the current parking lot and north of 4th.

I also wish there was a way to put Central back through.

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## Urban Pioneer

> I also wish there was a way to put Central back through.


In think there is a historic building in the way.  Lol. Not sure it ever went through after the Rock Island RR line was installed.  

Plus, a new at grade crossing on Oklaohoma would involve adding clanging signals and blaring train horns in the future.  Not sure loft, apt, hotel occupants will like that.

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## betts

> In think there is a historic building in the way.  Lol. Not sure it ever went through after the Rock Island RR line was installed.  
> 
> Plus, a new at grade crossing on Oklaohoma would involve adding clanging signals and blaring train horns in the future.  Not sure loft, apt, hotel occupants will like that.


I forgot about train horns.  Yeah, that would be popular with the hotel residents especially.  The rest of us would have time to get used to the noise, but hotel visitors don't.  I'm all about living downtown and "new urbanism"  but having at least one street where I can walk without having to wait for traffic lights at every corner is nice.  Walnut is going to be a busy street regardless, because, as I said, it is the direct line to Bricktown off the 6th St. exit, as well as the street you take to enter the Broadway Extension.  It's also a great route to 8th St. and the Health Sciences Center.  People are going to preferentially drive it because they don't have to turn to get on or off the Broadway Extension.  That won't change.  I don't even want a boulevard so, of course, I'm not excited about having a connection to it either.

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## Spartan

> In think there is a historic building in the way.  Lol. Not sure it ever went through after the Rock Island RR line was installed.  
> 
> Plus, a new at grade crossing on Oklaohoma would involve adding clanging signals and blaring train horns in the future.  Not sure loft, apt, hotel occupants will like that.


It is going to be at-grade?

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## Spartan

> As Spartan pointed out, traffic along Walnut is only going to get heavier and faster unless traffic calming techniques are implemented now.  Do you really Walnut to be a major urban boulevard through a residential area?


I don't believe that Walnut is particularly special when it comes to traffic speeds. The congestion I was describing at rush hour is just a lot of cars not moving, trying to get onto 235. As for Walnut's frontage, this will be a busy street. This will be a busy area. There's a flashy hotel, tons of street-level retail, and some historic structures across the street. Of course the city doesn't have a grand plan for what Walnut will become, but I think without us realizing it, it will become something impressive. That's what I meant. I believe you were arguing that we need to widen Oklahoma so that we can have -A- important N/S street, and I was explaining that I believe that will become Walnut.




> Oklahoma Ave would connect OKC Boulevard, Lower Bricktown, Upper Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Flatiron District and 10th Ave Corridoor all with out cars having to make left turns.  Since the entire street would be two lanes with on-street parking, traffic will remain slow and the area will remain pedestrian and bicycle friendly.  It will also encourage in-fill through the current parking lot and north of 4th.


Just what we need, to have our main N/S artery be "Oklahoma Avenue" while our new main E/W artery is "Oklahoma City Boulevard." Shoot me now...

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## Just the facts

No, Oklahoma Ave doesn't need to be widened, just connected.  If Walnut becomes a main road, which it is on its way to becoming, it will cut Deep Deuce in half; so they will end up with Deep Deuce and Deeper Deuce.  Arterial roads should run adjacent to neighborhoods, not cut them in half.  As for a bridge or at-grade crossing at Oklahoma, either one is possible but if you remember, Walnut was supposed to be an at-grade crossing until the Civil Rights issue came up.

Walnut has 5,310 cars a day thru Deep Deuce and Oklahoma only has 342.  Spreading that traffic out across two roads and the addition of on-street parking along Walnut would do wonders for retail in the area - otherwise, Deep Deuce just becomes some place people drive thru to get somewhere else; and usually as fast as they can.

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## Spartan

> No, Oklahoma Ave doesn't need to be widened, just connected.  If Walnut becomes a main road, which it is on its way to becoming, it will cut Deep Deuce in half; so they will end up with Deep Deuce and Deeper Deuce.  Arterial roads should run adjacent to neighborhoods, not cut them in half.  As for a bridge or at-grade crossing at Oklahoma, either one is possible but if you remember, Walnut was supposed to be an at-grade crossing until the Civil Rights issue came up.
> 
> Walnut has 5,310 cars a day thru Deep Deuce and Oklahoma only has 342.  Spreading that traffic out across two roads and the addition of on-street parking along Walnut would do wonders for retail in the area - otherwise, Deep Deuce just becomes some place people drive thru to get somewhere else; and usually as fast as they can.


This is a very good post of yours, Kerry. Not that you need our approval, but you've been fetching and scrambling for a few, and here's a solid post. I think you threw people off when you were talking about widening Oklahoma. If it's just a matter of connecting Oklahoma, I think almost all of us can agree with this point. It just makes sense. 

I doubt that an at-grade crossing is really at play, although when you think that through, then you realize it may take a long time to get around to connecting Oklahoma. I'd just say don't hold your breath, even though it would be really nice to get that HSR connection sooner rather than later. You're right about Walnut though, now that I think about it. However it doesn't mean that would have been a good idea. Betts and UP are right, an at-grade crossing there would be a nightmare--literally.

I'm surprised that Walnut's traffic numbers are as low as 5,000, yet that street really only has an hour a day where it's very busy, and only on weekdays. Besides when it's jammed at rush hour, right now there's not a whole lot going on just because the area is pending. I wouldn't be surprised if traffic soars to at least 15,000 within 4-5 years, once Walnut-to-BNSF is totally filled in with new rooftops and businesses. As for dividing Deep Deuce, I think this is already the case. The Deep Deuce apartment area and the Maywood Park area are already splitting off it seems. The best way to prevent that? Walnut could bind the area together if it emerges as a truly great avenue.

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## betts

I don't consider Deep Deuce or Maywood Park to be divided from each other at all.  I would love to see retail down Walnut, but regardless, there's plenty of traffic between the two already.  People in Maywood go to Deep Deuce to eat at Sage, the Deep Deuce Grill and the Wedge very frequently.  I walk my dog every day and usually it involves a stroll though Deep Deuce.  As I've said, Walnut is incredibly easy to cross, because of the lights that can be triggered, and it happens almost instantaneously, so crossing Walnut is as simple as pushing a button.  In addition, there's not going to be any room for retail on Oklahoma, unless you go north of 4th St.  There's almost none at the Maywood Lofts, there will be none at LEVEL, save Native Roots, which is on Walnut, the Brownstones only have the photography studio and the new apartments on Oklahoma and 4th have no plans for retail.  North of 4th, Oklahoma is going to be less attractive for cars because of what will take place at the at-grade railroad crossings on the east-west streets in order to create a quiet zone.  Traffic will be funneled over to Broadway primarily, because it's going to be slow crossing over the tracks.  I don't really see Oklahoma being a retail hot spot in the near future anywhere, unless it's local foot traffic.  Maybe the Triangle will be developed, but we've seen no evidence of that, and it's going to be most easily accessible via Walnut or Harrison/6th St.

Most of the current traffic jam-up on Walnut is because of the fact that there are frequently construction vehicles in one lane, or one lane is blocked off completely.  There are a few rubberneckers too who slow down to watch what's going on. Traffic moves very smoothly on Walnut, including onto the Broadway Extension. In addition, almost all of that traffic comes across on Second or Third Sts. from the CBD.  Very little of it comes from Bricktown, so making Oklahoma a through street into Bricktown wouldn't even significantly affect Walnut traffic. Perhaps some day there will be more traffic on Walnut, but certainly right now there's no need for concern.  As I've said, even post basketball games, traffic moves very quickly.

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## Urban Pioneer

> It is going to be at-grade?


It is likely.  Otherwise, it would have to be a underpass.  Also, you reference HSR.  That's decades away.  I'm more concerned about connections to the NE and Tinker AFB which are potentially much sooner.

Also, I don't think the traffic debate holds water (at least it may change).  I lived at that intersection for 10 years.  Walnut is a busy street, but it is not excessively wide and it is signalized with pedestrian crosswalk triggers.  If your worried about highway traffic landing in Bricktown via the Harrison exit and further becoming worse, keep in mind that the northbound exit on I-235 moves to 10th street severing traffic volume at Harrison.

Also, the first, most convenient exit off the new Boulevard will be Oklahoma directly off of the new Crosstown.  Bricktown will get it's own exit right next to the Harkins.  I think that traffic volume will at least stabilize once these exits change/open.

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## king183

> Hey J. Pitman,
> 
> Have you seen the plan to re-do the parallel parking along North Broadway with new angled parking that will add about 500 new parking spots to A-Alley? How would you feel about redesigning all of the on-street parking, which could easily add hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of new spots while still being sensitive to the streetscapes... It seems like adding such a glut of free on-street parking spaces would really drive down the incentive to pave lots over. *ahem* particularly along Mickey Mantle where the on-street parking is mysteriously missing for a very long stretch, where the limos and taxis all line up during after hours.
> 
> I've always wondered if the relative disappearance of on-street parking was in some way, at any point in time, the city's part in helping out the Bricktown parking lot operators. Reno too needs to be redone, narrowed, and parking needs to be incorporated there especially. Changing it away from parallel parking to the angled parking would make an amazing difference too. 
> 
> Simply put, Bricktown is not dense enough nor crowded enough, even on Friday nights, for the parking demands to be so far ahead of the street capacity that we're paving the entire district over for new parking. Especially considering that all the hotels have made parking arrangements one way or another.


After reading The Oklahoman's editorial on the issue, I decided to come over here and post my thoughts on parking, which mirror Spartan's expressed view here.  Thankfully, I decided to go back and read the thread before posting.  

Anyway, if we created angled parking on Reno, that would help reduce its highway-like speeds and make the area 100% more friendly to pedestrians.  Same thing with Mickey Mantle's.  At the same time, we make it far less profitable for surface lots, which is always a good thing in an (ostensibly) urban area.

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## Spartan

> I don't consider Deep Deuce or Maywood Park to be divided from each other at all.  I would love to see retail down Walnut, but regardless, there's plenty of traffic between the two already.  People in Maywood go to Deep Deuce to eat at Sage, the Deep Deuce Grill and the Wedge very frequently.  I walk my dog every day and usually it involves a stroll though Deep Deuce.  As I've said, Walnut is incredibly easy to cross, because of the lights that can be triggered, and it happens almost instantaneously, so crossing Walnut is as simple as pushing a button.  In addition, there's not going to be any room for retail on Oklahoma, unless you go north of 4th St.  There's almost none at the Maywood Lofts, there will be none at LEVEL, save Native Roots, which is on Walnut, the Brownstones only have the photography studio and the new apartments on Oklahoma and 4th have no plans for retail.  North of 4th, Oklahoma is going to be less attractive for cars because of what will take place at the at-grade railroad crossings on the east-west streets in order to create a quiet zone.  Traffic will be funneled over to Broadway primarily, because it's going to be slow crossing over the tracks.  I don't really see Oklahoma being a retail hot spot in the near future anywhere, unless it's local foot traffic.  Maybe the Triangle will be developed, but we've seen no evidence of that, and it's going to be most easily accessible via Walnut or Harrison/6th St.
> 
> Most of the current traffic jam-up on Walnut is because of the fact that there are frequently construction vehicles in one lane, or one lane is blocked off completely.  There are a few rubberneckers too who slow down to watch what's going on. Traffic moves very smoothly on Walnut, including onto the Broadway Extension. In addition, almost all of that traffic comes across on Second or Third Sts. from the CBD.  Very little of it comes from Bricktown, so making Oklahoma a through street into Bricktown wouldn't even significantly affect Walnut traffic. Perhaps some day there will be more traffic on Walnut, but certainly right now there's no need for concern.  As I've said, even post basketball games, traffic moves very quickly.


LEVEL will have more than just Native Roots, right? And there will be some stuff on the ground-floor of the Aloft, too, such as a cafe and a coffee shop, etc. 

As for Walnut, my experience is that it's mostly that right lane where people are trying to turn onto the 235 on-ramps that get really backed up at 5, and then the street is totally empty pretty much every other time. But I can't speak to how construction has affected the traffic...the recent downtown experience on that would have to be if you can still get through, even if there's a bottle-neck, that's an amazingly good thing.

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## Spartan

> It is likely.  Otherwise, it would have to be a underpass.  Also, you reference HSR.  That's decades away.  I'm more concerned about connections to the NE and Tinker AFB which are potentially much sooner.
> 
> Also, I don't think the traffic debate holds water (at least it may change).  I lived at that intersection for 10 years.  Walnut is a busy street, but it is not excessively wide and it is signalized with pedestrian crosswalk triggers.  If your worried about highway traffic landing in Bricktown via the Harrison exit and further becoming worse, keep in mind that the northbound exit on I-235 moves to 10th street severing traffic volume at Harrison.
> 
> Also, the first, most convenient exit off the new Boulevard will be Oklahoma directly off of the new Crosstown.  Bricktown will get it's own exit right next to the Harkins.  I think that traffic volume will at least stabilize once these exits change/open.


So why are the railroad crossings going to be at-grade? Granted it would have been very expensive, but I thought that would be necessary to maintain a grade on that curve that HSR can use. Has reality set in that we "aint gettin" any Amtrak money any time soon?

I know you guys have been meeting a lot lately and talking about the commuter rail and other non-streetcar modes, so my apologies if I'm asking stuff in the open that's currently very much in-flux.

----------


## betts

> LEVEL will have more than just Native Roots, right? And there will be some stuff on the ground-floor of the Aloft, too, such as a cafe and a coffee shop, etc. 
> 
> As for Walnut, my experience is that it's mostly that right lane where people are trying to turn onto the 235 on-ramps that get really backed up at 5, and then the street is totally empty pretty much every other time. But I can't speak to how construction has affected the traffic...the recent downtown experience on that would have to be if you can still get through, even if there's a bottle-neck, that's an amazingly good thing.


It is my understanding that everything that is not residential will be restaurant, with the exception of Native Roots.  There's always some traffic on Walnut, but it's true, rush hour at 5 is when the traffic is significant, and really no other times.  In the morning, for some reason, the traffic isn't nearly as bad.  Again, too, the majority of the traffic was off 2nd or 4th St., although 2nd is difficult to negotiate right now.  The only time significant traffic extends into Bricktown on Walnut is on Thunder game nights.

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## Spartan

> It is my understanding that everything that is not residential will be restaurant, with the exception of Native Roots.  There's always some traffic on Walnut, but it's true, rush hour at 5 is when the traffic is significant, and really no other times.  In the morning, for some reason, the traffic isn't nearly as bad.  Again, too, the majority of the traffic was off 2nd or 4th St., although 2nd is difficult to negotiate right now.  The only time significant traffic extends into Bricktown on Walnut is on Thunder game nights.


I think the reason traffic is smoother in the morning is because the bottlenecks are still caused by the volume of people using a few on-ramps, but that would back up 235 instead of Walnut in the morning.

That's going to be a LOT of restaurant space then.

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## Rover

Wanting it to be all restaurants and it actually winding up to be all restaurants may be two different things.  I think the strategic plan even says that just being a restaurant/club district doesn't make it a real neighborhood.  Maybe if they are calling bakeries, coffee houses, etc. restaurants then maybe that will be a little better.  But a good neighborhood book store, drug store, barber/style shop, etc. make for a balanced neighborhood.  Maybe they can get Nichols Hills drug store to move down to the Level or across the street.  That is a great "neighborhood" drug store and a really good fit.

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## Just the facts

You are correct Rover.  The district needs to move away from food service and more towards daily living needs.  If Nichols Hill drug store isn't interested a CVS or Walgreens would be a huge addition.  Of course, services like hair cuts (Flux Salon), dentist/doctor, financial planners, or a bank branch (no drive through) would be huge as well.

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## Rover

> You are correct Rover.


I am going to print and frame this.  It is a red letter day.   :LolLolLolLol:

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## Just the facts

> I am going to print and frame this.  It is a red letter day.


LOL - I thought you would like that.  It was weird though - I kept trying to type it in Word and the auto-correct kept changing it.  I had to use notepad.

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## MDot

Rover, I couldn't agree more with the points you made.

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## MDot

And this is also the first time I recall seeing you two agree. This is gonna be a good day.  :Woowoo:

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## Just the facts

Just for fun I started keeping a log in my car of where I drive and how many miles I go.  In the 2 weeks I have been doing it I have found that about 90% of my driving is taking kids to football, golf, and karate practice.  By tracking where I go it gives me an idea of what I need to look for in a walkable neighborhood, as well as business ideas for what other people might be looking for in a walkable neighborhood.

If I lived near a karate school I could eliminate half of my driving.

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## David

> And this is also the first time I recall seeing you two agree. This is gonna be a good day.


Either that or the start of the apocalypse.  :Tongue:

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## MDot

> Either that or the start of the apocalypse.


 :Omg:  you're right!

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## betts

Pre economic downturn, it was my understanding that CVS was looking at the Walnut corridor in Deep Deuce.  However, when I contacted them, they said they needed a certain population within a short distance, and I believe that population was about 10,000.  We're not going to be close to that for the forseeable future.  While bakeries and book stores would be nice, I am not expecting them in Deep Deuce for a while either.  I'd be happy to get non gift store retail in Bricktown, honestly.  Bricktown is so close that most of us really consider it part of our neighborhood.  Retail there would be a huge boon to our neighborhood.  Coffee Slingers and Starbucks are close enough that I can walk to both.  I think that most of us consider our neighborhood to be a much bigger area than Deep Deuce.  When you can walk to restaurants on 9th St. or Coffee Slingers on Broadway, as well as easily get to anything in Bricktown or Lower Bricktown, in your mind it's part of your neighborhood.

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## Rover

Actually, I often agree with JTF often, except that he presents the ideal and I am the grumpy old pragmatist.  The truth is somewhere between. I have lived long enough, seen a lot, been around the world (literally) a few times, and have seen how long it takes for cities, states, nations, and peoples to change their beliefs and habits.  I think the ideal always has to be established as an ultimate end game, but, as they say, perfection is the enemy of progress.  Smaller, shorter term projects that incrementally improve while still moving towards the ultimate goal are usually more productive.  One problem with the Pei plan was it was overreaching and the citizens can't connect with those things.  What they connect with are things like the MG make-over.  BT, DD and MidTown have the greatest opportunity to change the way people think about downtown and living in a more urban environment.  However, if it becomes all restaurants, bars, hotels, and apartments for 20 somethings, then it won't really appeal to the general citizenry as that is not what most people's lives are about.  These areas need to be about everyday living the way most of us would like it to be.  Those mundane daily living things are what will keep the citizens of OKC offering to pay for downtown improvements.

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## Just the facts

> Pre economic downturn, it was my understanding that CVS was looking at the Walnut corridor in Deep Deuce.  However, when I contacted them, they said they needed a certain population within a short distance, and I believe that population was about 10,000.


I understand the local population base requirment but I constantly see both CVS and Walgreens with their own stores just a mile apart.  The nearest Walgreens to me is 3 miles away.  Are they saying there are 10,000 people within 3 miles of Walnut and NE2?  This is probably a situation where the City needs to step in with BID funding and get the ball rolling.  If the City can spend $20 million to lure Bass Pro, I think a few hundred thousand to lure CVS/Walgreens would offer a better return on the investment.

In what I call the Urban Core of OKC there are only 6 Walgreens and 4 CVS's despite a population of several hundred thousand.  If their threshold is 10,000 there should be about 20 of them.

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## Rover

If the city is going to put someone in business, I vote for Nichols Hills Drugs, not CVS or Walgreens.

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## Snowman

> I understand the local population base requirment but I constantly see both CVS and Walgreens with their own stores just a mile apart.  The nearest Walgreens to me is 3 miles away.  Are they saying there are 10,000 people within 3 miles of Walnut and NE2?  This is probably a situation where the City needs to step in with BID funding and get the ball rolling.  If the City can spend $20 million to lure Bass Pro, I think a few hundred thousand to lure CVS/Walgreens would offer a better return on the investment.
> 
> In what I call the Urban Core of OKC there are only 6 Walgreens and 4 CVS's despite a population of several hundred thousand.  If their threshold is 10,000 there should be about 20 of them.


Minimum requirements do not mean that every place that meets it will get one, generally the reason you see ones almost next to each other is they are in areas that have the best metrics for income, population and traffic. Which for decades has not been a lot of places in the core, one or two decades of improvement will not fix all of over half a century of decline of the factors they choose location on. If they are subsidizing it it would be a lot better to go local since as Shadid points out local businesses spends more than double the percentage of revenue taken in within the city than national chains. However if they are subsidizing a decent grocery store in the future then a CVS/Walgreens would only duplicates most of the same things, granted which departments are the priority is slightly different.

----------


## Just the facts

> If the city is going to put someone in business, I vote for Nichols Hills Drugs, not CVS or Walgreens.


I guess it would come down to who applies for the BID money.  Of course, I am sure current zoning laws require 50 parking spaces for a drug store which might explain why many of them stay out of neighborhoods in the urban core.  When 2/3 of your lot has to go to parking and landscaping it greatly reduces the sales/per foot.  The CVS at 23rd and Classen has 89 parking spaces.  The Walgreens across the street has 67 parking spaces.  And as if 156 parking spaces isn't enough, they both have drive-thru lanes.

----------


## betts

> I guess it would come down to who applies for the BID money.  Of course, I am sure current zoning laws require 50 parking spaces for a drug store which might explain why many of them stay out of neighborhoods in the urban core.  When 2/3 of your lot has to go to parking and landscaping it greatly reduces the sales/per foot.  The CVS at 23rd and Classen has 89 parking spaces.  The Walgreens across the street has 67 parking spaces.  And as if 156 parking spaces isn't enough, they both have drive-thru lanes.


I use the CVS at 23rd and Classen and I'm not sure I've ever seen more than a dozen cars in the parking lot at any given time.  I used to use the Walgreens at Britton and Penn and they have far less parking, but I never had to leave because there wasn't a space.  It sounds as if these stores need to make a more reasonable estimate of how many people are in the store at a given time.

----------


## soonerguru

> Actually, I often agree with JTF often, except that he presents the ideal and I am the grumpy old pragmatist.  The truth is somewhere between. I have lived long enough, seen a lot, been around the world (literally) a few times, and have seen how long it takes for cities, states, nations, and peoples to change their beliefs and habits.  I think the ideal always has to be established as an ultimate end game, but, as they say, perfection is the enemy of progress.  Smaller, shorter term projects that incrementally improve while still moving towards the ultimate goal are usually more productive.  One problem with the Pei plan was it was overreaching and the citizens can't connect with those things.  What they connect with are things like the MG make-over.  BT, DD and MidTown have the greatest opportunity to change the way people think about downtown and living in a more urban environment.  However, if it becomes all restaurants, bars, hotels, and apartments for 20 somethings, then it won't really appeal to the general citizenry as that is not what most people's lives are about.  These areas need to be about everyday living the way most of us would like it to be.  Those mundane daily living things are what will keep the citizens of OKC offering to pay for downtown improvements.


Great post. However, I read that OKC has one of the fastest growing populations of twentysomethings in the country, so this is an important demographic for OKC to consider in its present and future plans. Also, there's no guarantee that these twentysomethings will have the same lifestyle habits and interests when they are older as, say, today's Gen Xers. In fact, it's likely that they won't.

----------


## Just the facts

> It sounds as if these stores need to make a more reasonable estimate of how many people are in the store at a given time.


It is not the stores, it is the City parking requirements.  The City mandates how many parking spaces they are required have based on the sq footage of the store.  I think the city should get out of the parking requirment business and let businesses do exactly what you think they are already doing; and that is calculate their own parking demands.

Here - you can see the parking requirements for yourself:
http://library.municode.com/HTML/170...150GEREOREPAAR

For example, a bowling alley must have 5 parking space per lane.  Which is obvious because 4 people bowl on a lane at a time and everyone at the bowling alley drives their own car.  Plus, at least one person is watching and not bowling at each lane, and they also drove their own car.




> TABLE 10600.2 I: RETAIL1  
> For the first 12,000 sf GLA 1 space/200 sf GLA 
> From 12,001 to 48,000 sf GLA 1 space/225 sf GLA 
> From 48,001 to 120,000 sf GLA 1 space/300 sf GLA 
> Over 120,001 sf GLA 1 space/325 sf GLA 
> 
> TABLE 10600.2 II: OFFICE  
> For the first 8,000 sf GLA 1 space/200 sf GLA 
> From 8,001 to 12,000 sf GLA 1 space/250 sf GLA 
> ...

----------


## betts

> It is not the stores, it is the City parking requirements.  The City mandates how many parking spaces they are required have based on the sq footage of the store.


Then perhaps those requirements need to be changed.  As times change, so should our regulations.

----------


## Snowman

> Then perhaps those requirements need to be changed.  As times change, so should our regulations.


I believe they have been looking at changing that at least in the downtown areas (or might have already done so), but I do not remember if what I heard was going to apply outside of the 4-ish square miles of the classic downtown area.

----------


## Just the facts

> Then perhaps those requirements need to be changed.  As times change, so should our regulations.


They need to be done away with completely.  Let CVS figure out how much parking they need.  They only have 6,267 stores; I am sure they know by now how much parking they need for one.  A standard 13,000 sq foot CVS would require 65 parking space.  That won't be happening in Deep Deuce.

----------


## Urbanized

The City removed parking requirements in downtown proper in the late '90s.

----------


## Just the facts

> The City removed parking requirements in downtown proper in the late '90s.


Do you by chance know the boundary of "downtown proper".  And of course, that only solves part of the problem.  These parking requirments are most problematic where new development is occuring along the suburban fringe which is preventing the development of new walkable neighborhoods.  And then people wonder why cars are required to get around (or maybe they don't wonder).

----------


## Urbanized

I don't recall the exact boundaries, but do know that all of Automobile Alley was included, which is the area I was specifically concerned with at the time. Perhaps Steve or some of the planning people I know are on here can answer the boundary question as it relates to relaxed parking requirements.

----------


## Rover

If you leave it up completely to the business, they will have too few and expect the city to accommodate.  There is a compromise.  The requirements should change depending on availability of public transit, total parking space availability in the area, population within walking distances, etc.  There is an algorithm that makes sense.

----------


## Just the facts

> If you leave it up completely to the business, they will have too few and expect the city to accommodate.  There is a compromise.  The requirements should change depending on availability of public transit, total parking space availability in the area, population within walking distances, etc.  There is an algorithm that makes sense.


Do you really think a business would make it impossible to have customer?  In traditional neighborhood development parking was provided off-street in a common lot in addition to on-street parking and individual buildings didn't provide their own parking.  Then the idea came along that each building should provide their own parking and surprise, sprawl happened.

As for algorithms based on X, Y, and Z I quote Thomas Paine

The simpler something is the less likely it is to become disordered, and if it does become disordered, the easier it is to repair.  Solutions to problems should be simpler than the previous solution that led to the new problem in the first place.  In other words, if over regulation created the problem then why would even more complex regulations solve the problem?

----------


## Rover

> Do you really think a business would make it impossible to have customer?


Yes, of course that's what I was saying and what I think.   :Frown:   Frown

If you impose strict parking lot development standards and make it more expensive, then businesses will avoid putting any more spaces in than they have to.  They will rely on the public spots.  To not believe this is as naive as to think the proposed development on the canal with the parking spots is working with the public's good in mind.

----------


## Snowman

> Do you by chance know the boundary of "downtown proper".  And of course, that only solves part of the problem.  These parking requirments are most problematic where new development is occuring along the suburban fringe which is preventing the development of new walkable neighborhoods.  And then people wonder why cars are required to get around (or maybe they don't wonder).


I don't think they wonder at the suburban fringe it is generally expected, the boundary apparently does not cover at least parts of bricktown since that was what was being discuses in the meeting.

----------


## bluedogok

> I understand the local population base requirment but I constantly see both CVS and Walgreens with their own stores just a mile apart.  The nearest Walgreens to me is 3 miles away.  Are they saying there are 10,000 people within 3 miles of Walnut and NE2?  This is probably a situation where the City needs to step in with BID funding and get the ball rolling.  If the City can spend $20 million to lure Bass Pro, I think a few hundred thousand to lure CVS/Walgreens would offer a better return on the investment.
> 
> In what I call the Urban Core of OKC there are only 6 Walgreens and 4 CVS's despite a population of several hundred thousand.  If their threshold is 10,000 there should be about 20 of them.


When I was at Benham and we were doing Walgreens stores we went to an architects conference at the Walgreens HQ in Deerfield, Illinois, they discussed a lot fo this type stuff. They have a different criteria than just number of residents, there are a lot of other things that go into store locations and the demographic factors they look at are what determines the locations and the "service area". A higher concentration of elderly people will pump that factor up because older people tend to need more prescriptions and are typically less willing to travel as far. That is just one of the many factors they assess when doing store location studies.




> If you leave it up completely to the business, they will have too few and expect the city to accommodate.  There is a compromise.  The requirements should change depending on availability of public transit, total parking space availability in the area, population within walking distances, etc.  There is an algorithm that makes sense.


That is not entirely true, I know Walmart typically does 1.5 times the amount of spaces required by code because they don't want the parking lot to "appear crowded" and have people leave because of that. Most of the national retailers that I have done work for want more than the absolute minimum, the same for office complexes and those financing those projects typically require more than city code. Sometimes those expectations have to be modified, especially here in Southwest Austin over the Edwards Aquifer were the impervious cover limits are highly restrictive. If you are doing a project in that area you can only have 15% impervious cover. The project we did on Southwest Parkway had only 11 surface parking spaces for a 4 story office building, every other space was in the parking garage. It was also designed for another 4-story building and an addition to the garage in the future. Our impervious cover calculations had to include all impervious cover to the centerline of the main divided road instead of just to our property line. To achieve the parking ratio the group financing the project wanted we had to add a level to the parking garage.

----------


## Rover

> That is not entirely true, I know Walmart typically does 1.5 times the amount of spaces required by code because they don't want the parking lot to "appear crowded" and have people leave because of that. Most of the national retailers that I have done work for want more than the absolute minimum, the same for office complexes and those financing those projects typically require more than city code. Sometimes those expectations have to be modified, especially here in Southwest Austin over the Edwards Aquifer were the impervious cover limits are highly restrictive. If you are doing a project in that area you can only have 15% impervious cover. The project we did on Southwest Parkway had only 11 surface parking spaces for a 4 story office building, every other space was in the parking garage. It was also designed for another 4-story building and an addition to the garage in the future. Our impervious cover calculations had to include all impervious cover to the centerline of the main divided road instead of just to our property line. To achieve the parking ratio the group financing the project wanted we had to add a level to the parking garage.


I guess I was reflecting more on downtown settings where there are more public parking garages, other surface lots, etc. than for stand alones and big box developments.  I have been to many inner city drug stores, etc. that have NO dedicated parking.  Land is relatively cheap and available in suburban environments so the cost of adding more surface spaces is generally fairly inexpensive.  I am wondering if your clients in the inner city have different thoughts.

I am also curious if customers of the businesses at Level will be able to use the parking there or will have to park on the streets, etc.

----------


## bluedogok

> I guess I was reflecting more on downtown settings where there are more public parking garages, other surface lots, etc. than for stand alones and big box developments.  I have been to many inner city drug stores, etc. that have NO dedicated parking.  Land is relatively cheap and available in suburban environments so the cost of adding more surface spaces is generally fairly inexpensive.  I am wondering if your clients in the inner city have different thoughts.
> 
> I am also curious if customers of the businesses at Level will be able to use the parking there or will have to park on the streets, etc.


You are right, the closer in locations the parking dynamic is different and mainly following whatever parking regulations are set forth by the city if there are any. JDM Place is the only CBD type project that I had a lot of involvement in (other than tenant finish out type of projects) and they had no parking required by the city. I know the new and older retail here in Downtown Austin typically doesn't have their own parking and all is satisfied by street parking or pay parking lots/garages. The only places that do are places like Whole Foods and other areas on West Fifth/Sixth Streets west of Lamar. My new office is in the LoDo area of Downtown Denver, the firm owns the building and there is no on-site parking but street and surface lots are close by.

----------


## Skyline

Great CNBC article about Bricktown.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44929808/

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## mcca7596

http://www.news9.com/story/17105143/...cktowns-future

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## wschnitt

More street parking cool. 

This is how I see the parking thing going.  More street parking will lead to more access to businesses as people will be able to park closer and cheaper.  That will improve the business climate as well as reduce demand for surface lots, making them less economically viable causing the owners to look at other options.

----------


## Just the facts

> Part of the plan is to add sidewalks and lighting to Russell M. Perry Ave.


With the addition of of the East Bricktown Apartments and hotel this is a timely improvement.

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## betts

I would like to see some effort to entice retail to Main Street, where there are still a fair number of empty buildings.  But I don't see any significant retail succeeding without other retail.  Somehow, it all has to happen simultaneously, as to make it a destination for anyone who doesn't live nearby, there has to be enough retail to make it worth the drive or the walk.  Or, it has to start with such a popular store that people are willing to drive there to shop.  Urban Outfitters would have that kind of appeal.  CB2 or West Elm maybe.  If we had something like that down there, other retail would likely follow it.  But, it doesn't sound like that is going to happen as Urban probably doesn't see it as a place that is retail-friendly or where people go to shop.  It's kind of a vicious cycle.  The city is going to need to do something to make it appealing, since almost every retail effort in Bricktown has failed.  Red Dirt Market probably works because it appeals to tourists, but I don't think people from OKC make the trek to Bricktown just to shop there.  It sounds like the Bricktown merchants want retail, but the question is, will they do more than simply wish for it?

----------


## Spartan

They may need to consider some Bass Pro-style incentives (except nothing remotely near $17 million) to lure some destination retailer that would be safe bets to snowball more retail activity.

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## ljbab728

> They may need to consider some Bass Pro-style incentives (except nothing remotely near $17 million) to lure some destination retailer that would be safe bets to snowball more retail activity.


I agree, Spartan.  And nothing approaching anywhere near that amount should be necessary if existing buildings are used.

----------


## Spartan

To expand on the thought, $40 million to lure Bloomingdale's is just not realistic, not a good idea, not going to happen. Maybe a small incentive, match whatever sweetheart deal McClendon has offered UO, or something to lure a GAP? That would seem feasible. Then perhaps go after a grocer, and make sure both locate nearby other fledgling retail to establish synergy and retail destination. That would be how you can effectively go after some small pieces that would combined make a huge difference, and pave the way for retail to coexist as it must.

----------


## Just the facts

> To expand on the thought, $40 million to lure Bloomingdale's is just not realistic, not a good idea, not going to happen.


$10 million to lure Target would be a much better plan.  How cool would it be if Target moved into the un-used floors above Spaghetti Warehouse?

----------


## Fantastic

> $10 million to lure Target would be a much better plan.  How cool would it be if Target moved into the un-used floors above Spaghetti Warehouse?


I hope you are being sarcastic

----------


## Just the facts

> I hope you are being sarcastic


Why would that be sarcastic?  I have been to a 4 story urban K-mart, why not an urban Target?  Multi-story urban department stores used to be the norm in America - from Montgomery Wards to Kress to Woolworths.

----------


## metro

I've been to Urban Target n Miami, tit off the light speed rail line.

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## Tier2City

> I've been to Urban Target n Miami, tit off the light speed rail line.


Now we know who Genghis Duck is!

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## BoulderSooner

there is very little chance of reno having on street parking on both sides ..

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## Architect2010

Could you give a reason for that, perhaps?

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## mcca7596

> there is very little chance of reno having on street parking on both sides ..


Even one side would be significant.

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## Just the facts

I'm pretty sure the plan will be to have on-street parking on both sides.

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## BoulderSooner

> Could you give a reason for that, perhaps?


just very much doubt the city would agree to it ..

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## Just the facts

> just very much doubt the city would agree to it ..


Whom would the City be agreeing with - it is their street and their plan.

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## BoulderSooner

> Whom would the City be agreeing with - it is their street and their plan.


the plan was made by the planning dept and bricktown stakeholders .... 

not public works /traffic /council / ect....  

those groups may have very different ideas on the reno st parking (one small part of the bricktown plan)

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## OKCRT

How about a John A Browns,Rexall Drugs,Streets,CR Anthony ect ect.
Why did all those stores move out of downtown along with all the movie theaters? Malls? Malls help kill downtown OKC right along with the Pee plan. Can or will it ever recover? I just don't know. I only can hope to see some decent retailers move back downtown. I am not getting my hopes up though.

----------


## Just the facts

Thanks for posting Sid.  I don't know why that idea was such a novelty for Duany because it only makes sense to me.  Maybe I am just way ahead of the curve or something.  OKC should be spending money to attract a provider of everyday needs.

I love this quote though:




> I was in Austin,” he said. “... Their urbanism is 190 bars. I was downtown, and I couldn’t find a Q-Tip.”

----------


## Urbanized

O


> ...Red Dirt Market probably works because it appeals to tourists, but I don't think people from OKC make the trek to Bricktown just to shop there...


Have you ever actually BEEN to the Bricktown Marketplace, Betts? Or are you perhaps confusing it with our first (and separate) store, Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium?

If you have been to the marketplace, can you tell me how it differs, other than in size, from Showplace Market or Serendipity in Edmond or the Market at Quail Springs, which are essentially (well done) suburban versions of the same concept?

I ask you this because pretty much every time Bricktown retail comes up in this forum you offer up something vaguely insulting about my stores. Have we offended you in some way? Did one of my staff treat you poorly or something? I'd like to get to the bottom of it.

I will freely admit that Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium was created to appeal to the visitor market, because that is low-hanging fruit in Bricktown. A major reason some operators have failed down there is that they failed to acknowledge the large number of visitors that walk around Bricktown on an annual basis, or at least the event-driven traffic. Those operators failed because they didn't recognize the low-hanging fruit.

We were really the first store that based our concept on what people ALREADY WALKING AROUND BRICKTOWN were asking for. We had an advantage there, because we  ran Water Taxi for nearly a decade before venturing into retail, and noticed that the visitor market was SEVERELY underserved.

Another example of catering to an existing market is how Guestroom Records opened to cater to the ACM crowd (and visitors in the bargain), or how Justin at Bricktown Candy Co. opened to cater to the sneaking-candy-into-Harkins crowd and got visitors and ACM in the bargain. 

Regarding the emporium however, we have made it a point from day one to try to equally appeal to locals who came in, and brought in tons of local music, MIO foods, Oklahoma-themed books in partnership with Full Circle Books, Thunder gear, etc. We made a pledge not to be some trashy rubber tomahawk shop (though we could have sold a TON of them), but rather a place locals would also enjoy and hopefully be proud of.

But the Bricktown Marketplace - opened 3 years after the emporium and on the other end of the building - is home to a huge variety of diverse vendors, and includes an official apparel store for the OKC Barons, one of the largest selections of official Thunder apparel outside of the Thunder Shop, great LOCAL (Tree & Leaf) Thunder themed apparel, product from local retailers like DNA Galleries in the Plaza District, plus ladies clothing, jewelry, home decor, a used book store (Archive Books in Edmond), and a great deal of other merchandise that is hardly visitor-specific. As for locals coming down to our place, our '11 holiday season was TRIPLE our '10 (first) season, and made up mostly of locals.

My places may not be your cup of tea - which is fine - but I believe it is unfair to label the marketplace much differently than the other places I linked to above. We're cut from the same cloth, and our customers are just as surely local soccer moms as visitors.

I don't understand the contempt for visitors, anyway. If catered to, they allow a district and downtown with hardly any rooftops to outperform traditional retail equations. They help stabilize prospects in an area that on the surface doesn't justify real retail investment, and they help create a situation that makes it more likely to ultimately get the nationals people are lusting after on here. I've been biting my tongue for a while on this subject, reading some really uninformed and frankly mean-spirited posts regarding some of the other retailers who have stuck out their shingles - and their necks - downtown.  I'm working on another post on this subject that will probably make all sorts of people on here cranky, but that I need to get off of my chest.

----------


## Urbanized

I can name five places in Bricktown to buy Q-tips, and several in the CBD. Does that mean we're doing better than Austin? ;-)

----------


## Urbanized

Convenience store in the Miller-Jackson Building, The Store in the Power Alley Garage, the Conoco across from Bass Pro, Hampton Inn, and Residence Inn (granted, last two are weak additions, but you can still buy a Q-tip there).

Sometimes being a true downtowner also equals being resourceful.

----------


## Just the facts

> I can name five places in Bricktown to buy Q-tips, and several in the CBD. Does that mean we're doing better than Austin? ;-)


Yes, that would mean OKC is doing better than Austin,unless.... are these tourist priced Q-tips or everyday priced Q-tips?

----------


## Urbanized

> Yes, that would mean OKC is doing better than Austin,unless.... are these tourist priced Q-tips or everyday priced Q-tips?


Excellent point! My guess: two are tourist-priced, one is everyday gas station priced, and two are somewhere between there. I mostly buy my Q-tips at Homeland (18th and Classen) or Walgreens (23rd and Classen). If I'm buying them in one of the other places something has probably gone very wrong in the earwax department.

----------


## okcboy

The special events in Bricktown will probably remain status quo until the city starts pumping in money and services and the ability to close off streets. Would suggest that city leaders look into  the things that Chicago have done with their Cultural and Special Events department within its mayors office. A Baby Disco Event? Really ?  

http://www.cityofchicago.org/content...festivals.html

----------


## okcboy

The on street parking will be a revenue source for the city. Customer puts in 4 Qtrs and stays over an hour and returns to a green envelope with a special
gift inside.  If this great idea is to shoot at surface pay lots it won't work. These will be like any other meters downtown. Filled by employees feeding them all day or
someone dropping something off, picking up, or a short meeting. I think its better when someone parks in a surface lot and stays through meals and into the evening.

----------


## okcboy

The problem with developing upper floors at for example spaghetti warehouse is that the city will not let you do one floor at a time. If you want to bring one floor up to code for office or residential you have to do the whole building. This gets to cost prohibitive.  Spaghetti Warehouse wanted to this several years back but didn't want to remodel every floor. Interested in doing a floor at a time.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> The problem with developing upper floors at for example spaghetti warehouse is that the city will not let you do one floor at a time. If you want to bring one floor up to code for office or residential you have to do the whole building. This gets to cost prohibitive.  Spaghetti Warehouse wanted to this several years back but didn't want to remodel every floor. Interested in doing a floor at a time.


this is not true as far as i know ...   several projects have been built out 1 floor at a time

----------


## Just the facts

> The on street parking will be a revenue source for the city. Customer puts in 4 Qtrs and stays over an hour and returns to a green envelope with a special
> gift inside.  If this great idea is to shoot at surface pay lots it won't work. These will be like any other meters downtown. Filled by employees feeding them all day or
> someone dropping something off, picking up, or a short meeting. I think its better when someone parks in a surface lot and stays through meals and into the evening.


I think the Reno street parking would be free with probably some kind of time limit (2 hours).  We used to go to Ft Bragg, CA every year and their downtown parking was free with a 2 hour time limit.  Parking enforcement came around every hour and put a chalk mark on your tire.  If they found you with two chalk marks you got a ticket.

They look like this:

----------


## BoulderSooner

it would be metered if created just like the rest of the on street parking in bricktown

----------


## Just the facts

> it would be metered if created just like the rest of the on street parking in bricktown


While it might be metered now, I thought part of the Bricktown Plan was to make all city owned street and surface parking free, thus killing the surface parking lot market.

----------


## okcboy

They way I understand it is all floors above the restaurant are not up to current codes.
You can't just do a sprinkler system, plumbing, electric, etc and get an occupancy permit by floor. That they would have to bring all the upper floors to code to get a occupancy permit.  The Bunte Candy building just did this but it was around an 8M investment I heard.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> They way I understand it is all floors above the restaurant are not up to current codes.
> You can't just do a sprinkler system, plumbing, electric, etc and get an occupancy permit by floor. That they would have to bring all the upper floors to code to get a occupancy permit.  The Bunte Candy building just did this but it was around an 8M investment I heard.


ok i understand ... they wouldn't have to do the build out per floor .. but would have to get the "shell" up to code on every floor

----------


## Urbanized

LOL I had a long-winded rant (not the one on the previous page) 95% typed up last night on my office machine, and was going to wrap it up and post this AM. Came in this morning and Windows had applied updates and restarted my computer. Perhaps that means my thoughts on downtown retail are best kept to myself!

----------


## wschnitt

> The problem with developing upper floors at for example spaghetti warehouse is that the city will not let you do one floor at a time. If you want to bring one floor up to code for office or residential you have to do the whole building. This gets to cost prohibitive.  Spaghetti Warehouse wanted to this several years back but didn't want to remodel every floor. Interested in doing a floor at a time.



Dowell Center was done one floor at a time.

----------


## Urbanized

Dowell Center also had semi-modern sprinkler systems, HVAC and electrical service already in place, only requiring upgrades. I'm not 100% certain if okcboy's assertion is correct, but it makes a certain amount of sense if you consider that some of the buildings down here substantially or entirely lack those systems.

----------


## Skyline

This is the Bricktown strategic plan. 

What are the Lower Bricktown strategic plans? ...

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Dowell Center was done one floor at a time.


isn't dowell center still 100% empty??

----------


## Just the facts

> This is the Bricktown strategic plan. 
> 
> What are the Lower Bricktown strategic plans? ...


LOL - there is no strategic plan for Lower Bricktown.  Nothing short of a bulldozer can fix lower Bricktown.  The iconic boulevard is going to have great views of the backs of everything.

----------


## Urbanized

Meh, I think you can "fix" Lower Bricktown with infill. I would start by building structured parking where the large Harkins/Toby Keith lot is, and systematically eliminating the other surface lots by building on them, making sure to build to the streets and the canal. I'm pretty sure you could leverage TIF for the garage.

----------


## mcca7596

> LOL I had a long-winded rant (not the one on the previous page) 95% typed up last night on my office machine, and was going to wrap it up and post this AM. Came in this morning and Windows had applied updates and restarted my computer. Perhaps that means my thoughts on downtown retail are best kept to myself!


I'd like to know if you ever get the time again.

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## mcca7596

> While it might be metered now, I thought part of the Bricktown Plan was to make all city owned street and surface parking free, thus killing the surface parking lot market.


I thought it included making all Bricktown city-owned lots and street spaces free as well.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Meh, I think you can "fix" Lower Bricktown with infill. I would start by building structured parking where the large Harkins/Toby Keith lot is, and systematically eliminating the other surface lots by building on them, making sure to build to the streets and the canal. I'm pretty sure you could leverage TIF for the garage.


would really like to get the empty lot next to toby keith's built upon

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## Skyline

I'm glad you thought that was funny.

Who owns all of the surface parking in Lower Bricktown?

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## soonerliberal

> Meh, I think you can "fix" Lower Bricktown with infill. I would start by building structured parking where the large Harkins/Toby Keith lot is, and systematically eliminating the other surface lots by building on them, making sure to build to the streets and the canal. I'm pretty sure you could leverage TIF for the garage.


Totally agree.  There are plenty of areas in Lower Bricktown that can be filled in.  There are prime spots to the east and west of Toby Keith's and along what will become the new boulevard along with between Residence Inn and Sonic.  There are also plenty of areas of surface parking that have enough space to be repurposed as garages.

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## Just the facts

> I'm glad you thought that was funny.
> 
> Who owns all of the surface parking in Lower Bricktown?


It is owned by a number of different people.  Here is a link that will allow you to find the owner of any property using a map.  Just click the Launch Map Viewer and zoom into the area you are interested in.

http://oklahoma.latitudegeo.com/imf/...ma/launch.html

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## Larry OKC

> ...I don't understand the contempt for visitors, anyway. ...


Exactly. Visitors are NEW money coming into the economy and that can only be a good thing. Most anything else is just redistribution of existing monies spent from one area of town to another

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## Urbanized

Visitors are also downtown and Bricktown's best hope for making the area outperform the current abysmal residential demographics retailers look at when considering an area. Other than more rooftops, the sales tax revenue they bring to downtown zip codes is OKC's best hope for attracting quality retail downtown. Ignoring them is, well, ignorant.

I'm still working on finding time to post some of my thoughts and observations regarding downtown retail recruitment. Much of the stuff I read on this board regarding this subject is frankly comical.

Trust me, nobody would love it more than me if an Urban Outfitters and a West Elm plopped down in Bricktown, but those types of nationals are INCREDIBLY unlikely in the foreseeable future. I understand that now more than ever, between years spent either trying to lure retailers to a district, or listening to highly-qualified real estate people (NOT property speculators) talk about retail development, and now having had the benefit of starting two downtown retail operations from scratch over the past five years. Those things have all made me temper my expectations, without question.

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## lasomeday

Are the zoning laws in Bricktown keeping more residential units from happening or is it the parking lot issues?

I think AA has more potential for new mixed use being built than Bricktown because of the parking for tourists issues.  AA could get a few more retailers once the developers see its potential and as the street cars move in.

Does the plan include the street car route and how it will attract residents?

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## okcboy

It only my opinion, but Bricktown core to me should always be an entertainment
district and not a residential neighborhood. Also, its gonna take a cluster destination
retail development to do the trick downtown. One off retail shops are great 
but we will be in for a long process. Come and go, kinda like what we have seen to this point.  
This will need subsidizing like Bass Pro Shops. Just the reality of today.

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## Just the facts

okcboy - you are right about the retail.  For retail to work on any meaningful level the retail space would need to be consolidated under common management.  If the Cox Center is ever removed it will represent the greatest chance OKC has had in two generations to bring retail downtown.  As for residential development in Bricktown, it will only enhance the entertainment options available in Bricktown.

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## okcboy

I agree and think condos and residential are great. Just worry when you mix a persons home with the sometimes nuances of restaurants, bars, and clubs (next door or above your home) that there might be some conflict unless the residents know what they are getting into going in. I could see someone at a council meeting complaining about something because "this is were my family lives".

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## okcboy

I think maybe a good retail spot would be where the convention center should of been located.

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## betts

> I agree and think condos and residential are great. Just worry when you mix a persons home with the sometimes nuances of restaurants, bars, and clubs (next door or above your home) that there might be some conflict unless the residents know what they are getting into going in. I could see someone at a council meeting complaining about something because "this is were my family lives".


I don't think you'd get a lot of families living in Bricktown.  I think rather you'd get people of pre-family age or singles of any age.  In other cities there are plenty of options to live over bars, restaurants or retail.

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## Rover

Retail follows people. People don't follow retail.  Bring more jobs downtown and you bring more people. More people with well paying jobs who are willing to spend on more than beer and burgers and we will get retail.  Not too complicated.

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## Questor

So back 60+ years ago downtown was full of window shopping... Yet there was no more housing downtown then as there is now, in fact it was likely less... But it worked then. Retail worked then. How did it work then if retail _always_ follows people?

I can think of several outlet malls around our country that have essentially been built up in the middle of nowhere, or at least with a very small surrounding population. Before the tornado took it out the Tanger mall would have fit that description. If retail follows people but people do not follow retail, how does this type of retail (outlet malls) survive?  

I think the key point that is often missed is that yes retail needs people to survive, but that doesn't have to mean those people are living at its doorstep. Many outlet malls simply thrive off of through traffic. The same phenomenon is seen in the restaraunt industry... It's why some of OKC's highest performing restaraunts are located just off interstates. 

People sometimes do follow retail, given there are enough people passing by to make it work. When I think of Bricktown, an area anchored by two massive interstates and immediately surrounded by natural foot traffic attractions, I can't help but think we, once again, have become a bit too suburban in our thinking with respect to what does and doesn't work in a city core.

Just my opinion.

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## Rover

Keep up the positive thinking. Just build an outlet mall downtown and let them come. Lol

People should check out how many downtown malls have failed over the last 30 years.  Just build it and people will come downtown to shop.  That was the thought.  I hope everyone understands there is a reason retailers haven't been clamoring to be downtown.

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## Just the facts

> So back 60+ years ago downtown was full of window shopping... Yet there was no more housing downtown then as there is now, in fact it was likely less... But it worked then. Retail worked then. How did it work then if retail _always_ follows people?


I don't know about 60 years ago but pre-WWII downtown OKC had tons of housing and the people who didn't live in the heart of the city had direct access via streetcars.

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## Rover

And there wasn't shopping all over town...just downtown and Capital Hill.

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## Questor

I'm sure a lot of downtown malls have failed in recent years. Most downtowns are failing. But as a recent national article noted, OKC's downtown has taken the exact opposite track. I just have to wonder if the thought that retail couldn't survive down there is too simple a rationale. 

Outlet malls located in remote areas have been successful regardless, so other factors must come into play. Rover mentioned that downtown was popular back when there weren't other areas of the city competing with it. That certainly makes sense. So then why couldn't a development exist down there that doesn't compete directly with other entities around town?  It's a simple strategy that works in other industries. Put an Old Navy or Kohls down there and it'll fail because you can go anywhere for that. Why wouldn't we try to figure out what OKC residents are Craving, can't get Anywhere else in the metro, and try to put That down there?  Theres a lot of evidence that people are willing to drive for some things....  It's why on any given weekend you'll meet people from all across Oklahoma in Bricktown. So we've established people will drive from afar for entertainment options they can't get in their immediate area. Why wouldn't we assume they might be willing to do the same for specific types of retail?  Why couldn't we compete with that fun weekend retail getaway to Dallas that so many of my friends go on?

So why wouldn't that strategy work?  Have we ever really tried?

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## Questor

I did a very quick google and the very first link was to a paper written by some folks at Cornell. One thing it says is that successful downtown retail has to find a competitive advantage. That's exactly what I am talking about above. 

http://www.downtowndevelopment.com/p...Down_EE0C8.pdf

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## Just the facts

The difference between a shopping mall and downtown is that the mall manager has upwards of 200 store sites to offer retailers.  Store like The Limited operate under multiple brands including Victoria's Secret, Bath and Body Works, Pink, La Senza, and Henri Bendel.  Each brand targets a specific consumer and shopping mall management knows where in the facility those shoppers are and can off multi-tenant deals.  Downtowns don't have this luxury because the retail space is owned by so many different people, many of which would never work together to produce the synergy necessary to land tenants.  The owners of FNC would never offer a 30% discount to Pink so The Limited could move into City Place at market rate.

If all the downtown retail space was brought under a common management company downtown could make a go of it.  Of course, downtown OKC doesn't have very much retail space available anyhow, and as discussed earlier, a lot of space near the urban core doesn't even open to the sidewalk which doesn't allow retailers to set their own hours.

----------


## Questor

So this is a great post, and I understand what you are saying. But you know when I walk around downtown and Bricktown, for a metro area I see a surprisingly large number of vacant grass lots, surface parking lots, and other areas of opportunity. If the issue is the need for a single owner/management for an entire retail property, and our city is lacking in retail sites downtown anyway, then to me rather than a negative all of the points you have made just seem to be positively suggesting we as a city need to make some of these old lots I've mentioned available for retail expansion. Hopefully then an owner buys the lot, builds some sort of retail structure, and performs the site management function you are talking about. It would have to be someone with that kind of experience, but I would hope not an actual mall management company in the traditional sense as we need something unique down there.

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## Urbanized

Successful national retailers don't take risks. Ever. Unlike locals, they don't "believe" in an area. There is NOTHING warm and fuzzy about their decision-making process. They base their decisions 100% on numbers. Simply put, downtown's residential rooftop and per household income numbers suck.

An upscale national retailer, if they consider the OKC metro at all (and the tide there is finally turning) will first locate in 4-5 other zip code clusters before even CONSIDERING downtown, and by the time they do that, they are no longer unique to the market. Places like Classen Curve or Edmond or Norman can offer household incomes in the $60K and up range; downtown zip codes offer average household incomes in the twenties.

I know we all assume that there was a ton of CHK/McClendon money that lured Whole Foods and Anthropologie to Classen Curve, but there is NO amount of money that would have brought them if CC wasn't located between (and closely to) Nichols Hills and Crown Heights.

Unfortunately, those are the cold hard facts when it comes to national retail. They want rooftops, and just as important, rooftops with income. Downtown - despite its progress - has little of either.

What downtown DOES have is some destination status and some movement in the housing market. The best thing we can do is to do everything possible to encourage the downtown housing trend, and in a decade or so we MIGHT be able to compete with other zip codes in the metro.

The destination status downtown enjoys can help in a more immediate fashion; by making the downtown zip codes' sales tax reports out-perform expectations based only on household income for the area. The Chamber uses these numbers in retail recruitment to try to convince retailers that the area is viable despite the poor household figures.

This is why rather than poor-mouthing local retailers who take a chance on downtown, people who are anxious to see more recognizable retail here should actively seek out reasons to patronize the pioneering locals.

Instead of grumbling when a local scuba enthusiast dreams big and puts a store in Automobile Alley, go into the store and see if you can buy your sunblock or sunglasses from him instead of from Target. Instead of going to Macy's or Wal-Mart, buy a watch from B.C. Clark, or a bike from Schlegel. Get your wedding dress in Midtown rather than the 'burbs. Stop by the Bricktown Candy Company or Pinkitzel and get some candy there rather than whatever suburban grocery store you shop at.

Stop into Guestroom records and pick up a CD rather than buying it on iTunes. When Native Roots opens, buy whatever you can from them instead of griping about them not being Whole Foods. It's not always easy, or convenient, or cheap, but it will make a difference in the long run.

And instead of griping about out-of-town and out-of-state visitors somehow "sullying" your downtown, or a convention center that brings even more of them into the equation, understand that visitors are one of the best and most-compelling weapons we have to combat the poor household and residential numbers we currently offer retailers when trying to convince them to locate downtown.

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## ThomPaine

> This is why rather than poor-mouthing local retailers who take a chance on downtown, people who are anxious to see more recognizable retail here should actively seek out reasons to patronize the pioneering locals.
> 
> Instead of grumbling when a local scuba enthusiast dreams big and puts a store in Automobile Alley, go into the store and see if you can buy your sunblock or sunglasses from him instead of from Target. Instead of going to Macy's or Wal-Mart, buy a watch from B.C. Clark, or a bike from Schlegel. Get your wedding dress in Midtown rather than the 'burbs. Stop by the Bricktown Candy Company or Pinkitzel and get some candy there rather than whatever suburban grocery store you shop at.
> 
> Stop into Guestroom records and pick up a CD rather than buying it on iTunes. When Native Roots opens, buy whatever you can from them instead of griping about them not being Whole Foods. It's not always easy, or convenient, or cheap, but it will make a difference in the long run.


Excellent points.  Shopping locally is one of the best things anyone can do, and when you speak to an owner, or even a clerk, let them know you are local.  

Another thing that seems to hurt us in OK, is the unwillingness for people to walk more than 100 feet from their cars.  I have seen people walk out of a store in a strip mall, move their car five rows over, get out, and go in another store.  Spend any time in a large metro area (DC, NYC, Chicago, Seattle, etc), and people walk a lot.  That's why people in those metro areas are thinner too...

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## okcboy

Was at yesterdays Bricktown St. Pats event thats been going on for 21 years and it didn't look like its getting tired. Very busy. Great urban vibe. Wish I new how to post a photo.

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## Spartan

Just upload it anywhere, facebook works, and copy the image url. You can get this by right-clicking on the photo. Copy it into something like this [img][/img] inside the brackets.

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## okcboy

Sorry. Cant figure it out. Not very computer savvy. Bricktownokc on twitter has some.
https://twitter.com/#!/BricktownOKC/...372416/photo/1

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## Just the facts

> So this is a great post, and I understand what you are saying. But you know when I walk around downtown and Bricktown, for a metro area I see a surprisingly large number of vacant grass lots, surface parking lots, and other areas of opportunity. If the issue is the need for a single owner/management for an entire retail property, and our city is lacking in retail sites downtown anyway, then to me rather than a negative all of the points you have made just seem to be positively suggesting we as a city need to make some of these old lots I've mentioned available for retail expansion. Hopefully then an owner buys the lot, builds some sort of retail structure, and performs the site management function you are talking about. It would have to be someone with that kind of experience, but I would hope not an actual mall management company in the traditional sense as we need something unique down there.


It doesn't have to be very complicated and ownership doesn't have to change hands on retail sites, we just need common management across all available space and a revenue sharing program.  Let's say downtown had three spots for retail.  Instead of having all 3 owners compete with each other and none of them being able to offer a multi-tennant deal, bring those three sites under a common manager and split the rent based on sq footage at each site.  All 3 sites get filled and each owner makes the same $per sq foot income.  Of course, this is a simplistic example and there is still the problem of very little retail sites open to the sidewalk, but selecting the right management company could lead to new retail development.

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## Rover

Unless you are putting in a destination shop (like Bass Pro) there will be little retail. It takes feet on the street. No amount of manipulation will convince savy retailers to lose money.  They need traffic with money to spend.  The new housing will certainly help.

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## Just the facts

> Unless you are putting in a destination shop (like Bass Pro) there will be little retail. It takes feet on the street. No amount of manipulation will convince savy retailers to lose money.  They need traffic with money to spend.  The new housing will certainly help.


With the limited retail options in Oklahoma creating 'destination retail' is the easy part.  Half the city went ape **** over Whole Foods and the other half went ape **** over an outlet mall.  A World Market opening would get two days of front page coverage and they have stores in Wichita, Amarillo, and Lubbock.  You have to admit, the bar is set pretty low.

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## betts

World Market?  I would hope not. But I agree we don't need a national anchor tenant downtown, nor are we likely to get one. What has not proved to work is a single store in an isolated location that appeals to one demographic only. That's why I said I'd love the city to target the empty buildings on Main in Bricktown. I'd like to see 3 or 4 stores in close proximity open reasonably close on a timeline. Very few people would make a trip to go to a single store and if you're in Bricktown for dinner or to go to a bar, stores are unlikely to be open.

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## Larry OKC

I dont know anything about World Market, but what about Whole Foods? It seems to be the perfect example of a "single store in an isolated location that appeals to one demographic" (at least based on the cars in the parking lot). Not that I have anything against the cluster approach either. Get the right store in there and they will come. How many of the folks that frequent Whole Foods walk across the street over to Classen Curve?

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## Questor

In many ways I think, regardless of how much one may like the area as there seems to be a wide range of opinion there, that Lower Bricktown is perhaps the most successful part of the Bricktown area.  If one looks at how the area is layed-out, with a large anchor tenant (the theater) in the center portion, condos just 100 feet to the side, and a wide range of walkable restaurants and coffee shops in the immediate area, I think that is why the area enjoys success.  So if that area is successful, and most people probably agree that it is, then I don't understand why we don't replicate that again and again.  In another thread I mentioned that really there is not a whole lot over in east Bricktown.  So why not do Lower Bricktown again, but this time with a different anchor, different stores, and different architecture?  There are plenty of empty spaces for this.  How about a lower Lower Bricktown... or how about just the lower canal... what is wrong with that area anyway.  Bite the bullet and redo it... add more storefront windows and direct entry doorways, partition the areas down to smaller, cheaper square footage, and in the areas where you keep the larger square footage find something of national significance to put in as an anchor.  In LB's case it was just a movie theater.  Like JTS said the bar is pretty low... finding something new and unique to Oklahoma should be "sky's the limit...."

----------


## Questor

> I dont know anything about World Market, but what about Whole Foods? It seems to be the perfect example of a "single store in an isolated location that appeals to one demographic" (at least based on the cars in the parking lot). Not that I have anything against the cluster approach either. Get the right store in there and they will come. How many of the folks that frequent Whole Foods walk across the street over to Classen Curve?


You know me personally I never walk to Classen Curve from Whole Foods because I feel like trying to cross Grand or Classen on foot is taking your life into your own hands.  But it is an interesting point that you bring up, people who shop at WF tends to do things like enjoy walking.  The location of our current and only WF store is a bit isolating, but I could definitely see that store being the type of place that would generate foot traffic in a more urban setting.  

Whole Foods now understands that yes it can be successful in Oklahoma.  So build some large retail center in Bricktown or downtown that has them as the center anchor, with lots and lots and lots of little shops all around it.  Don't design it as a straight line or V-shaped suburban strip mall... make it sort of U-shaped like a "town center" or some uniquely interesting configuration with lots of walking space and a public fountain or art in the center that encourages walking through, around, and across, with parking far away on an outer area that doesn't cross paths with the pedestrians.  I would really love to see something like that here.

----------


## Questor

Also I am sure someone is now going to say oh well yes this is the easy part, it is getting the anchor tenant to locate in OKC that is the hard part... well I don't doubt that, but I also think that if you sign a big enough check anyone will locate here.  Concerned business xyz won't make a profit?  Well pass a penny tax and pour the whole thing into the new retail site and guarantee the tenants an incentive plus sustained revenue until they become profitable on their own.  You basically eliminate the majority of the risk by doing that.  So don't say it isn't possible, anything is possible if we really want something bad enough and are willing to pay for it.

I understand the sentiment of wanting a new convention center and the political necessity of creating senior aquatic centers around town, but I would honestly much rather see us dump $100 million+ into creating walkable commerce areas and attracting the kinds of businesses that everyone I know wants here that won't seem to come here than seeing any of that other stuff built.  But that's just me.

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## Questor

> If they did this, I wonder if they could use the sonic restaurant building (not the HQ building) and the small parking lot behind it.  (new construction for that whole area).  Not sure it that is enough space though.  Would that be a good location?


That's an interesting thought.  That's a great location, and the little parking lot has never made much sense to me because it can serve so few.  Yeah that might be a good location.  It could probably get a bump by being so close to (or in) Lower Bricktown too.

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## Just the facts

> ...make it sort of U-shaped like a "town center" or some uniquely interesting configuration with lots of walking space and a public fountain or art in the center that encourages walking through, around, and across, with parking far away on an outer area that doesn't cross paths with the pedestrians.  I would really love to see something like that here.


I was just at The Jacksonville Landing which is designed exactly like that.  Its history has been riddled with store closures, poor attendance, and a dead-like atmosphere.  I came to the conclusion Saturday that it was designed backwards.  Instead of the shops opening to the inner courtyard or accessible only by an internal hallway, the shops should have all opened to the outside facing the steet.  On the day we were there the place was actually pretty busy but you couldn't tell from the sidewalk because everyone was hidden behind or inside the building.  The back of the stores actually face the street.

----------


## Questor

> I was just at The Jacksonville Landing which is designed exactly like that.  Its history has been riddled with store closures, poor attendance, and a dead-like atmosphere.  I came to the conclusion Saturday that it was designed backwards.  Instead of the shops opening to the inner courtyard or accessible only by an internal hallway, the shops should have all opened to the outside facing the steet.  On the day we were there the place was actually pretty busy but you couldn't tell from the sidewalk because everyone was hidden behind or inside the building.  The back of the stores actully face the street.


That is a good point.  Actually even the Classen Curve suffers a bit from the way in which it tends to obscure itself from the outside area.  I guess I am a bit leery of street-facing frontage because here in OKC if something like that went up for bid that means every local yokal with strip mall experience would be trying to get a piece of it and if they did would ultimately design something more for drive up parking than for pedestrians.  I am not sure how we would reconcile that... giving something enough visibility that passers-through would want to stop and check it out, but also something that is very easily walkable.

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## Larry OKC

^^^
That is the way Classen Curve is built

*ON EDIT:* Questor posted right before me, my ^^^ was to JTF...LOL

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## Urbanized

> ...if you're in Bricktown for dinner or to go to a bar, stores are unlikely to be open.


I have 7200 sq ft of retail in Bricktown (the largest locally-owned retail floorplate in downtown, if I'm not mistaken). The stores are both open 7 days a week, 12 months a year. Like most retailers, during January and February we have limited winter hours (12-6 or 12-7), but currently we are already operating on our regular schedule (10 AM to 9 PM), and do so for 10 months of the year.

The smaller of the two, Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium, is open until 10 PM on Fridays and Saturdays, and will be open until 10 PM 7 days a week come summer. The only reason the marketplace doesn't stay open until 10 is that it is directly below Rok - which starts at 9 PM on weekends - making it unbearably loud in the store.

We often do much of our daily business between 8 PM and 9 PM, when people are finishing dinner and strolling Bricktown.

I know Bricktown Candy Company and Guestroom have similar hours. The Painted Door Gallery is open 6 days I believe, and also extends hours in the summer months. Put a Cork in It winery is open 6 days and extends hours during the busy months. Not sure yet what House of Bedlam's hours will be, but suspect they will be aggressive. Also not sure of Coco Flow. Bass Pro of course also has long hours, though it is obviously a different animal altogether.

I'm pretty sure the shops in Bricktown as a group stay open more hours than retailers anywhere else in downtown. Most stores elsewhere in downtown are closed at 5 or 6 PM and often not open at all on weekends.

I guess if you're wanting Bricktown stores to be open for people stumbling out of clubs at the end of the night, we've failed. Otherwise your statement is not accurate, and inadvertantly discourages readers from even bothering to TRY to find open retail in Bricktown.

----------


## betts

I'm glad your stores are open that late.  I did not know that. But I don't consider any of them destination retail that will bring people in specifically to shop in Bricktown. And really, I was talking about new, as opposed to existing retail, as I thought that was the point of this thread.  I would like to see Bricktown as a destination for shoppers, personally. And i think it would be great if people who come downtown to have dinner can also shop - that's icing on the cake. Most of the single store retail I'm familiar with close at 5, or certainly 9 at the latest, so if survival is dependent on casual shoppers who pass by on their way to dinner, that's a problem. And something like that was a problem for Envy, Firefly and Lit, all of which should have been successful in the right location. I would have liked to see them adjacent, as that would have created more of an impetus to travel there to shop. I drive up to Nichols Hills Plaza to shop, and frequently stop in a store I might not have visited had it been in an isolated location. I have to make an extra effort to go there, but it's worth it, for all the unique retail that is in close proximity.

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## mcca7596

> With the new transit hub, I hope this happens now more than ever.   Sorry, that is a little more "dreamy" than the current strategy discussion.


That's what's planned to happen with the hub though, so it's totally realistic within the next 5-10 years.

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## Rover

> With the limited retail options in Oklahoma creating 'destination retail' is the easy part.  Half the city went ape **** over Whole Foods and the other half went ape **** over an outlet mall.  A World Market opening would get two days of front page coverage and they have stores in Wichita, Amarillo, and Lubbock.  You have to admit, the bar is set pretty low.


Yes Whole Foods has done well...it is smack dab in their demographics in Nichols Hills.  You can put a destination store like Bass Pro which will attract a wide demographic, but high end retailers won't sniff Bricktown for some time.  Bricktown is not a retail destination area and there isn't enough adjacent population yet to attract and make successful very much retail.  Retailers have to make money and the $'s just aren't there....YET.  Someday, maybe.  Local owners with cute businesses that can survive on low volume and will be extremely frugal will have a chance.

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## Just the facts

I don't know Rover, here in Jax we put a shopping center in the middle of a field with no adjacent housing and it is now the #3 shopping center in the US and draws people from over 200 miles away.  The closest housing is all apartments.  They picked the location because it was at the intersection of two freeways - which is a bit odd since it was marketed and named "Town Center" and touts its pedestrian feel, but has parking for 5,000 cars.

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## Rover

> I don't know Rover, here in Jax we put a shopping center in the middle of a field with no adjacent housing and it is now the #3 shopping center in the US and draws people from over 200 miles away.  The closest housing is all apartments.  They picked the location because it was at the intersection of two freeways - which is a bit odd since it was marketed and named "Town Center" and touts its pedestrian feel, but has parking for 5,000 cars.


But you want no highways or roads to service downtown and want to discourage cars, right?  

Seriously, they had traffic count or reason to suspect a huge traffic count there.  And what was the constructions costs?  I don't think any major developer is going to come into OKC and put up a major mall in the middle of the city.  I didn't think that's what you want anyway. I don't know of downtown malls that have or are doing very well.  Mostly the downtown shopping fits the demographics of the locals.

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## Skyline

With the possibility of 4 new Bricktown hotels all in the near future, the Bricktown strategic plan seems to be working.

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## Urbanized

Sid, you hit on what I have said for a long time. The canal is a place you go TO. To have the type of success we all want to see, it needs to become a place people go THROUGH. Locals (rightly) see it as an unnecessary side trip to a visit to Bricktown. If it instead became a shortcut and was used as a nice way to get from point to point -- a super-sidewalk if you will -- it would fundamentally change the viability of canal-front property.

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## Rover

> One of the challenges of businesses on the canal is that they are only serving people who are coming specifically to see them or are strolling along.  I have walked along other canals or river walks when it acted simply as a pedestrian walkway.  Because you have to walk off of Sheridan or Reno to get to California, it makes it a little more challenging to tap into the walking traffic of Bricktown.  Have always wanted to see a pedestrian tunnel under the tracks and west from Bricktown to EKG and into the CBD.  Make that route more prominent for people walking east out of downtown.  
> 
> With the new transit hub, I hope this happens now more than ever.   Sorry, that is a little more "dreamy" than the current strategy discussion.


You are exactly right.  The canal is like a private sidewalk now and has no high count business that opens onto it.  For instance, it seemed like the riverwalk in San Antonio got a lot more foot traffic when the Hyatt opened up on the river and had a main opening to it.

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## Urbanized

> ...I don't consider any of them destination retail that will bring people in specifically to shop in Bricktown...


That's never something we have really positioned them to be. Most shopping in Bricktown is currently impulse/opportunity based, and will be for the foreseeable future. As I have said in another post, it will be strong uphill sledding before a national "destination" retailer appears here. I hope I'm wrong, but the demographic numbers and the way nationals choose sites would indicate we are years if not a decade + from seeing this.




> ...if survival is dependent on casual shoppers who pass by on their way to dinner, that's a problem.


You're right; it is a problem, and one that won't be changing until lots more high earners live downtown. It's the cold hard truth. Therefore, in the meantime the best bet for a retailer to survive is to acknowledge, study and cater to this impulse market. Hopefully the retailer does so in a way that also interests and engages locals, and hopefully some of them WILL treat the retailer as a destination. We have seen an encouraging trend in this regard, with steady upticks every year in holiday shopping, for example.




> ..and something like that was a problem for Envy, Firefly and Lit, all of which should have been successful in the right location...


I think Envy's demise had more to do with a divorce and the opportunity to put Pinkitzel in the same space, but the other two locations failed (in my opinion) because they didn't listen to the market. They were mall stores plopped in Bricktown, and frankly I don't see that working here anytime soon if ever. The thing that will make retail work in Bricktown is offering something YOU CAN'T FIND at the mall, and offering products that will resonate with the many hundreds of thousands of people already walking around down here on an annual basis. If you ignore them and try to create some brand new market out of thin air, you've already got one foot in the grave.




> I would have liked to see them adjacent, as that would have created more of an impetus to travel there to shop. I drive up to Nichols Hills Plaza to shop, and frequently stop in a store I might not have visited had it been in an isolated location. I have to make an extra effort to go there, but it's worth it, for all the unique retail that is in close proximity.


It's obviously not Nichols Hills Plaza, but the Bricktown Marketplace was designed specifically with this idea in mind; 50+ "micro" stores - each merchandised by a different merchant - in one location, with diversity of product and hopefully something for everyone. It's nowhere close to the ultimate goal for Bricktown, but we hope it is a step in the right direction.

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## betts

I don't think we need a national retailer to make Bricktown more of a shopping destination. And I agree that the Bricktown Marketplace is a microcosm of exactly what is needed. I'm going to go shopping there next week to try to find something unique to put in gift bags for out of town visitors to my daughter's wedding. But I can't shop for shoes, a dress or a wedding gift. For all of those items, I prefer local merchants like we have along Western, in Classen Curve and the NH Plaza. And, with the right renovation, promotion and perhaps help from the city, we could recreate shopping like we find along Western in Bricktown. We're going to have some great downtown demographics soon.  A store like Lit could thrive, as long as the owner sought out brands you can't find at the mall. A store like Bebe's might be too upscale, but something like the French Cowgirl could thrive adjacent to a store like that. A shoes store like the one on Campus Corner (forgot its name) or the Shoe Gypsy would work as well.  People wouldn't drive to Bricktown to shop at one of those, but they would for all 3, especially if they could pick up lunch as well.

If I had enough money, I'd renovate Main Street and seek out tenants because I believe we're very close to there.

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## Spartan

Downtown retail is a very complex equation. I would be very wary of anyone who says, "It's simple, all we have to do is focus on _____!"

However, the bottom line is we need to create retail destination somehow. You can create destination in a number of ways, with an anchor, with a high-profile retailer, etc. I think that at some point the city and a cadre of developers are going to have to sit down and offer incentives to different retailers (hopefully locally-owned retailers that are established, ie., Full Circle), and it MUST be done in a very coordinated, concerted manner. 

If one developer offers discounted rent on NW 10th and another makes a competing deal in Bricktown, then you create zero destination, haven't identified the best retail slate, and all that you HAVE done is driven down your potential leasing market for retail in the future by throwing money in a haphazard way at retailers that one person liked, but clearly aren't the best strategy for downtown retail as a whole.

So that's the dilemma. Something bold has to be done, but a lot of planning has to go into whatever is done, and everyone has to be on the same page.

I think Betts also has a great point. Past attempts at downtown retail (and in the past we did have a decent concentration in Bricktown at times) may have been hindered by the relative new-ness of downtown at that time. Now downtown is more established, and most important of all, has great demographics. Each year, thousands of people move into downtown living units, so each year undoubtedly makes a huge difference in attracting the right mixed-use mix.

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## Rover

With retail it IS very simple...feet on the street with money in their pockets.  Cheap rent pales in comparison to their large costs of inventory and inventory has to turn many times.  When btown can prove real traffic made up of shoppers, retail will follow.  Until then, small shops with limited merchandise will be possible, but it will be a slow progression.  The more high end apartments and condos, the better to drive it.

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## Urbanized

> ...Now downtown is more established, and most important of all, has great demographics...


Unfortunately right now that is far from true. The zip codes a site selector would use (locals go with their gut/heart, regionals and national chains with cold hard data) are far, far from good. In fact, the appropriate term would be bad. That said, they are improving every day. Hopefully there will be good advancements in the retail sector in the next decade as downtown fills with residents. But it probably won't happen this year, or next year, or the year after. And it's nobody's "fault" that it hasn't happened to date. It's a process, and for downtown it's likely to be a long one.

Until then, the proven "real traffic made up of shoppers" that Rover refers to is limited to visitors (high numbers in season) and locals who are visiting downtown/Bricktown for events, dinner, etc. These are opportunistic shoppers who are buying more on impulse than anything else. It's still a significant opportunity for some retailers, and improving sales tax numbers will help in the recruitment of more mainstream retailers.

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## Skyline

As a side note... This morning I noticed new signage for the Bricktown parking lots along Main Street. It looks really good, a retro type design with good lighting placement.

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## Rover

> Unfortunately right now that is far from true. The zip codes a site selector would use (locals go with their gut/heart, regionals and national chains with cold hard data) are far, far from good. In fact, the appropriate term would be bad. That said, they are improving every day. Hopefully there will be good advancements in the retail sector in the next decade as downtown fills with residents. But it probably won't happen this year, or next year, or the year after. And it's nobody's "fault" that it hasn't happened to date. It's a process, and for downtown it's likely to be a long one.
> 
> Until then, the proven "real traffic made up of shoppers" that Rover refers to is limited to visitors (high numbers in season) and locals who are visiting downtown/Bricktown for events, dinner, etc. These are opportunistic shoppers who are buying more on impulse than anything else. It's still a significant opportunity for some retailers, and improving sales tax numbers will help in the recruitment of more mainstream retailers.


Yes, and unfortunately, people on their way to a Thunder, Baron's, or concert event aren't going to shop first and carry merchandise with them to the game/concert, and the shops are closed at 10:30 when they leave.  I doubt families going to dinner are going to go shopping much either (Mom doesn't like to shop with 3 kids and Dad in tow).  So, right now, serious shoppers are in short supply.  When locals (immediate area) aren't even populous enough to support a CVS, it is doubtful they will support much of a retail operation.  So, small local boutiques, specialty book stores, kitschy souvenir and novelty stores, etc. is what will be more realistic for the time being.

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## Spartan

> Unfortunately right now that is far from true. The zip codes a site selector would use (locals go with their gut/heart, regionals and national chains with cold hard data) are far, far from good. In fact, the appropriate term would be bad. That said, they are improving every day. Hopefully there will be good advancements in the retail sector in the next decade as downtown fills with residents. But it probably won't happen this year, or next year, or the year after. And it's nobody's "fault" that it hasn't happened to date. It's a process, and for downtown it's likely to be a long one.
> 
> Until then, the proven "real traffic made up of shoppers" that Rover refers to is limited to visitors (high numbers in season) and locals who are visiting downtown/Bricktown for events, dinner, etc. These are opportunistic shoppers who are buying more on impulse than anything else. It's still a significant opportunity for some retailers, and improving sales tax numbers will help in the recruitment of more mainstream retailers.


I'm not sure they'll be BAD per se. Hundreds of new folks moving into LEVEL, hundreds of people moving into the Edge, hundreds of new folks will be moving into Bradshaw's new apartment project, as well as Gary Clark's East Bricktown project. Then consider the number of smaller-scale projects that don't take up entire blocks, probably at least a dozen housing developments there right now. That does translate into some decent demographics IMO, especially when you question just how many people should be living in a ZIP code. We don't really have uber-high population ZIP codes in OKC because of how sprawled our city is, maybe along the NW Expressway? Still, I wouldn't be surprised if Norman or Stillwater have the highest population density ZIP codes in the state, and look at how that's translated into elite retail for them...

So I just don't think that a huge number in a single ZIP code is the recipe. The presentations I've seen to retailers and developers usually use a 3-mile radius, then a 5-mile radius, and then go as far out as the developer is wanting to make a point.

As for tourist business, because that's basically what it is, I'm going to go ahead and say you undoubtedly know more than any of us about that base. That said, I just don't believe it's as significant as you say it is, but I could be wrong. I have seen you say a few times that it's a lot more people than we'd think, so I'll take your word for it there. I am sure though that no matter how big it is, it's nowhere near big enough to grow the kind of downtown retail that I think we all want to see take root.

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## Spartan

> Yes, and unfortunately, people on their way to a Thunder, Baron's, or concert event aren't going to shop first and carry merchandise with them to the game/concert, and the shops are closed at 10:30 when they leave.  I doubt families going to dinner are going to go shopping much either (Mom doesn't like to shop with 3 kids and Dad in tow).  So, right now, serious shoppers are in short supply.  When locals (immediate area) aren't even populous enough to support a CVS, it is doubtful they will support much of a retail operation.  So, small local boutiques, specialty book stores, kitschy souvenir and novelty stores, etc. is what will be more realistic for the time being.


Now hold on. I wouldn't use CVS' absence as a dig, or anything definitive, for that matter. I doubt CVS has even been asked in a few years, or given a proposal. And if they have and said no, that's their loss. The point being though, I'm pretty sure that downtown could at least support a CVS, the prolonged absence of which is now becoming puzzling.

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## soonerliberal

> Now hold on. I wouldn't use CVS' absence as a dig, or anything definitive, for that matter. I doubt CVS has even been asked in a few years, or given a proposal. And if they have and said no, that's their loss. The point being though, I'm pretty sure that downtown could at least support a CVS, the prolonged absence of which is now becoming puzzling.


CVS' absence is actually very perplexing considering their new approach to how their stores are setup and their product inventory.  Their urban stores have added significantly to their food section, taking away from a lot of the miscellaneous things that are often seen in a CVS.  It seems like there should be one in one of the up and coming districts of OKC.

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## Just the facts

> CVS' absence is actually very perplexing considering their new approach to how their stores are setup and their product inventory.  Their urban stores have added significantly to their food section, taking away from a lot of the miscellaneous things that are often seen in a CVS.  It seems like there should be one in one of the up and coming districts of OKC.


I was shocked when I went into a CVS in Philly - it was more grocery store than drug store complete with a fresh produce section.  Blew my mind!

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## Rover

> Now hold on. I wouldn't use CVS' absence as a dig, or anything definitive, for that matter. I doubt CVS has even been asked in a few years, or given a proposal. And if they have and said no, that's their loss. The point being though, I'm pretty sure that downtown could at least support a CVS, the prolonged absence of which is now becoming puzzling.


Not making a dig.  But your statement is my point exactly.  WHY haven't they?  And like anything, there are trend setters whom other retailers respect (or envy) and whom they follow (they are different than innovators/pioneers).  When one or two trend setter retailers agree to move in, others will quickly follow.  All retailers have their guidelines..some stupid, but they have them.  And demographics isn't just number of people and not even always about income, but more about the specific demographics and what they buy, and disposable income as much as income.  The new developments and growing market size helps, but it may take awhile...or subsidies to help convince a trend setter to come and show what the neighborhood REALLY will support.  Chesapeake subsidized the entry of Whole Foods and guess what....they found they can be VERY successful here.  Now they are looking for other sites.  Downtown needs their "Chesapeake" to kick start the retail side, and then hope that everyone responds and supports them.

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## betts

This sounds like a circular argument. We don't have retail downtown because we don't have enough people and people dont come downtown to shop because we don't have enough retail. I still believe we could create the impetus for people who don't live downtown to come to shop, which might encourage more people to move downtown.  I think, if someone had enough vision or the city helped out financially, that we could create enough interesting retail (not national chains) that it could be destination shopping.  I don't think it is likely to happen by itself, which is why I thought the title of this thread related to strategic planning. Maybe we need some of that.

If the plan is "it's not gonna happen", then it won't.

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## Spartan

> Not making a dig.  But your statement is my point exactly.  WHY haven't they?


I just think you're giving way too much credit to the CVS and other low-level retail site selectors, who frankly aren't experts or else they would be site selectors for better retailers than CVS. Especially to let them characterize the potential of downtown retail for us??

It sounds like you're agreeing with my suggestion that subsidies will need to be involved. I was saying though that subsidies need to be applied very diligently and selectively, to prevent that train from leaving the station. Subsidies are a risky thing to lose control of, especially when you have a city that is run the way OKC is (not very well). 

But I do not believe that CVS should be given a subsidy to come downtown. Or even an equivalent. Honestly, it sounds like some of you all are just being overly-contrarian. I have been arguing all along that the retail picture is complicated, then you all said no it's very simple. Now that I've brought up that downtown demographic picture is actually not as bad as it is made out to be, now it's not simple, it is in fact very complicated--see these reasons, which come from Spartan's post earlier. So it is frustrating that we're circling the wagons here and to see reasoning that I've already put out there.

That said, I think there's a lot to be said for downtown's demographics. I would argue that instead of controversial "stakeholder" studies and recommendations to bury the streetcar project in a barrage of repetitive studies, perhaps a study should be done on just what is the downtown retail demographic. How can all of these restaurants set up shop and thrive, very few of them ever going out of business, and yet retail is just non sequitur? Retail and restaurants are usually considered very similar uses in the planning picture, so on the business side of it, it would be interested to examine the disconnect there.

I think we would be pleasantly surprised. There are a lot of things that are never as bad as they're chalked up to be. Sometimes, the court of public opinion is a vicious thing, and it's often wrong as well. Granted, O.J. did in fact do it, I think downtown's demographics is a great example of where some people who aren't part of that demographic, haven't studied it fully, and just aren't as connected to reality as they should be to make such a definitive statement, ended up declaring downtown premature for retail and then the media went with it and got all of us to go with it, and then the question was never revisited again because everybody thinks it was definitively answered. 

This downtown demographics issue seems more like a lose-lose proposition than a piece of information that can help us correct the problem. The people from whom this statement comes from are also pretty much saying that there's nothing you can do about downtown retail, the facts are this, just give up (which reminds me a LOT about how we used to talk about pro sports in Oklahoma when I was growing up). 

This argument seems to be in no way connected to a strategy to fix the problem, and that's something I have a huge problem with, because it's not helping. It's not a constructive issue. And this issue seems to exist, in the minds of people, in a vacuum that is totally oblivious to the fact that we're seeing about a thousand move-ins a year in terms of rooftops downtown. If that doesn't change things in terms of the equation for downtown retail, then I'm going to go ahead and say that the math is wrong, not downtown. If somebody is oblivious, unaware, or just doesn't care about thousands of living units under construction or proposed, then I am either oblivious, unaware, or just don't care about what they're saying about downtown.

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## Urbanized

Facts are facts. It's not a circular argument. It is not giving up. I have been involved with this issue for a long time (many years before actually becoming a retailer in fact), and I am hardly discouraged about downtown's prospects. I have also been fortunate enough to know many of the people involved - all of them with far more than my own meager horsepower - and I can assure you that some very smart, hardworking and resourceful people have worked incredibly diligently over the years to bring they types of retail being discussed, and at times have been frustrated in their efforts. This is not an issue that is somehow being ignored by the City, and a number of property owners downtown have quietly been very aggressive in trying to make it happen.

I have just come to the understanding that attracting quality retail to downtown is a detailed process, and unfortunately in our case likely to continue to be a lengthy one.

It is NOT a "chicken or the egg" thing where there is a debate as to whether the people attract the retail or the retail attracts the people; it's well-established what has to come first: the people. Lots of them. With disposable income. That simply does not exist in the OKC inner-city in the radius that would be considered by the retailers we all hope for.

The bright side is that it probably will exist one day. Creating a strategy in the meantime is of course very important.

The chain retailers people have been talking about on here (other than services like pharmacies) are very unlikely to be here anytime soon. The inner city zip codes that would be considered in the downtown equation are very sparsely populated overall, and even worse the average income numbers are around $20K, I have been told. The only way that changes is when many more quality developments appear, like the ones we are currently seeing.

If an upscale retailer is going to venture into the OKC market, "taking a chance" on the city at all is as about as much appetite for risk as they will possibly exhibit. They will go to a proven location with the right demographics, not a sparsely-populated, comparatively poor, unproven area they "have a gut feeling about."

You can try all you want to create parallels between downtown and Classen Curve, and talk about incentives like WF supposedly received, but what you cannot change is the amount of relatively high-income housing surrounding CC. There is zero legitimate comparison between the two. It's even more sobering when you consider the fact that they apparently STILL had to provide incentives. Downtown isn't even in that ballgame.

Sorry if it seems like I am a wet blanket, but there is a bit of a need for a reality check here. Realistic expectations will make the journey much more palatable, as the work of the past couple of decades and the next few years finally bear fruit, as they eventually will.

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## Spartan

> and talk about incentives like WF supposedly received, but what you cannot change is the amount of relatively high-income housing surrounding CC. There is zero legitimate comparison between the two. It's even more sobering when you consider the fact that they apparently STILL had to provide incentives. Downtown isn't even in that ballgame.


Wow, if they say I'm depressing to read, I'd hate to see reactions to this no matter what a good point it is. Here's what I'm wondering, on the bright side: We know how likely downtown retail was 5 years ago when we were looking at our first big wave of infill. There was a 2007 wave, most of which never broke ground due to the recession, but some stuff did. How much progress have we at least made? What have we done right, what have we done wrong? How much has the incredible growth downtown made a dent in the numbers we ultimately will need?

Now we've seen a large 2011 wave that is more in line with our optimistic expectations for development. I'm currently working on lists that will quantify the exact number/costs of development and housing units for downtown. But I suspect once we add up all the small projects with 10/15 units a piece, we'll be surprised at how many new units we've seen. As for how that translates into population, I'll figure that each unit will add 1.5 people, because we know that downtown household sizes are much smaller than average. So, first we need an idea of how many people we have downtown and how many more we KNOW we're adding space for.

Then we need a magical number for downtown housing. Some people have said for a grocery store that it's around 20,000, or else you're looking at incentivizing to make up for however much you're short. But, how much do you think the magical number would be for something like this (you're essentially adding 4 more small stores on Broadway):


I think here is how you can strategically target some small retailers, in this case two national clothing brands (GAP, and Urban Outfitters) that have proven to be urban staples, and then getting a local grocer that has already expressed interest in downtown, and a bookstore that is owned by a downtown developer and probably needs new digs. Instead of $40 million in incentives to get a Bloomingdale's or a Saks that isn't happening anyway (and I'm shocked the City has even thought about it), what if each of these retailers could be made eligible for some very generous tax receipts that would make downtown more than worth their while?

In the case of GAP, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not looking to expand in the metro since they have much more of a presence in other similarly-sized metros, and they've gone in on potentially risky downtown areas before. Like Lawrence, KS (whose downtown was revitalized in the 90s)--which also has a UO on their downtown stretch.

So then, by adding that up with what is arguably our fledgling little retail hub, suddenly I think this stretch provides EXCELLENT retail destination. It also has excellent highway access, which retailers will desire, along with the streetcar and a glut of 4-lane roads with potentially high traffic volume. I would say just by bringing in those four stores, two of which are local (important to make sure locals benefit from retail incentives) and all of which contribute to the kind of cool, unique mix that downtown retail needs in order to succeed--then just sit back and see if creating that retail destination adds to any additional activity from developers once this area gets established and makes a name for itself.

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## Spartan

> One of the main reasons I like that location Nick is that it acts as a stepping stone back toward Downtown.  I have always wondered why we don't think of urban renewal more in the context of a reverse suburban flight.  In other words, draw your population rings and start to work inward, building stability and buy-in along the way.  Instead of trying to force activity in abandoned areas and hope people will leave their beaten path to participate.  
> 
> There are other areas too that boarder the peripheral neighborhoods that surround the CBD.  Would be a neat experiment to draw a band about 1-2 miles out around downtown and see what opportunities exist today that can be leveraged - especially retail ones.  
> 
> Granted, this approach takes longer and isn't as sexy as new entertainment districts, but I think it is a viable project that could run parallel to other, downtown-centric efforts. Over time, you could bring that ring in closer to downtown as infill brings people and activity closer.


Well it's just the idea of organic development (what is proven to be successful) versus inorganic development (what we keep trying).

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## Spartan

What, microsoft Paint not good enough for you? Fine, I see how it is...

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## Rover

How about building a large parking garage in Btown and surround it with a charming urban shopping with street parking. The cheap parking is not necessarily for the shoppers, but for downtown workers, not the $150k a yr workers, but the others for whom parking is expensive.  Make them go past the shopping....either walking or by transport.  Get the feet on the street and really encourage them to hang around downtown after work. Add that demographics to that of those who live there.  Too many people leave work and go straight home. Make them want to hang around...give them a reason.  BUILD the kind of demographics beneficial to retail.

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## Spartan

I agree, excellent idea. I would also say that a public parking facility in my little fledgling retail destination would no doubt be necessary and also ensure some degree of success. Available parking is another thing that retailers look specifically for.

It would be very nice if some of these new COTPA parking garages would address non-office land uses, but that seems to be asking for too much. Exnay on the transit, retail, and mixed-use areas apparently.

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## Rover

In many places, the parking is for pay during the day and free after 5.  Make it cheap for the office workers to hang around.  Keep them downtown rather than trying to get other people to come downtown.  Build the garages in areas you want people to be in. If you build them adjoining the offices, they leave the office and drive on out to the burbs. Give them financial incentives to wak from downtown thru btown.

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## betts

> How about building a large parking garage in Btown and surround it with a charming urban shopping with street parking. The cheap parking is not necessarily for the shoppers, but for downtown workers, not the $150k a yr workers, but the others for whom parking is expensive.  Make them go past the shopping....either walking or by transport.  Get the feet on the street and really encourage them to hang around downtown after work. Add that demographics to that of those who live there.  Too many people leave work and go straight home. Make them want to hang around...give them a reason.  BUILD the kind of demographics beneficial to retail.


Thank you. The point I was trying to make is that if we're simply going to say Bricktown isn't ready for more retail and won't be for some time, why bother talking about a strategic plan? If retail can succeed at the Old Market in Omaha, and from my admittedly limited experience with it it has, then we should be able to make it succeed in Bricktown.  I'd rather see people throw out ideas, which perhaps might make people think outside the box a little, than assume it can't be done.

Oh, and as far as CVS is concerned, I actually contacted their management about a possible Deep Deuce store. This was despite the fact that I consider most of their stores decidedly ugly. They gave me population figures they require for a new store, and it was far higher than what we can expect in the next few years.  I suggested they alternatively consider 10th St, because it is an arterial between the Health Sciences Center and St. Anthony's and got no response.

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## Spartan

That would seem like a pretty easy conundrum to solve to me. Tell CVS and Walgreens that neither of them can expect a building permit for a new store anywhere in OKC unless they look at downtown. Either they go downtown, or they stop littering our city with their ugly suburban stores, so I don't see how we could lose there. I would sure hate to see incentives for a CVS, not that Cathy O'Connor would go there.

And...



> The point I was trying to make is that *if we're simply going to say Bricktown isn't ready for more retail and won't be for some time, why bother talking about a strategic plan?* If retail can succeed at the Old Market in Omaha, and from my admittedly limited experience with it it has, then we should be able to make it succeed in Bricktown. I'd rather see people *throw out ideas, which perhaps might make people think outside the box a little, than assume it can't be done.*


Yes!!

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## BoulderSooner

> That would seem like a pretty easy conundrum to solve to me. Tell CVS and Walgreens that neither of them can expect a building permit for a new store anywhere in OKC unless they look at downtown. Either they go downtown, or they stop littering our city with their ugly suburban stores, so I don't see how we could lose there. I would sure hate to see incentives for a CVS, not that Cathy O'Connor would go there.
> 
> And...
> 
> Yes!!



wow .. just wow

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## rcjunkie

> That would seem like a pretty easy conundrum to solve to me. Tell CVS and Walgreens that neither of them can expect a building permit for a new store anywhere in OKC unless they look at downtown. Either they go downtown, or they stop littering our city with their ugly suburban stores, so I don't see how we could lose there. I would sure hate to see incentives for a CVS, not that Cathy O'Connor would go there.
> 
> And...
> 
> Yes!!


That's right, because we all know Bricktown will cease to exist without a 24 hour Drug Store.

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## Spartan

> wow .. just wow


Don't tell me you're defending precious CVS..

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## BoulderSooner

> Don't tell me you're defending precious CVS..


no but your comment that the city should/could tell CVS and walgreens that neither of them can expect a permit unless the look downtown .. is so out there that is deserved a couple of wow's

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## Spartan

It's also called hardball in bigger cities. If you're going to litter our city with 50 of your crappy suburban boxes, and OKC can't do anything to control that, then at least look downtown. There are a lot of cities that have begun "discriminating" against retailers (like Walmart) who have "too much" market share.

You think it's radical, but it's totally viable. And really, how much "sway" does CVS or Walgreens have in this city? Some cities in Canada are now implementing a "no more than 10 locations" rule (darn you Harvey's), which I think is an awesome idea.

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## BoulderSooner

it very much would be not legal .... and very much effects the rights property holders that lease to CVS/Walgreens ..

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## metro

> Wow, quite the crowd.  Thanks for sharing!


That was a SMALL fraction of the crowd at the St. Patty's parade. I went this year for the first time and was blown away how big an event this is. Several thousand street spectators from AA all the way through Bricktown to Joe Carter. It was packed, the parade itself lasted about 2 hours.

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## Urbanized

> ...Oh, and as far as CVS is concerned, I actually contacted their management about a possible Deep Deuce store. This was despite the fact that I consider most of their stores decidedly ugly. They gave me population figures they require for a new store, and it was far higher than what we can expect in the next few years.  I suggested they alternatively consider 10th St, because it is an arterial between the Health Sciences Center and St. Anthony's and got no response.


You're confirming the point I have been making, which is not so much about Bricktown, but about downtown in general. CVS won't come to downtown due to sparse population (you heard it with your own ears), but Whole Foods or Urban Outfitters will? Sure, UO isn't afraid of urban areas, but in THOSE cities, there is dense and typically affluent population surrounding the site.

We have to crawl before we can walk. Build residential, build residential, build residential. Beyond that, entice other locals to set up shop, and then SUPPORT them. That is the path. Spending a bunch of time hoping for West Elm to be here tomorrow is wasted energy.

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## Urbanized

One other thing that might be instructive to those who keep bringing up relocating Full Circle Books (which I personally have great affection for and would love to see as much as anyone) is that the owner, Jim Tolbert, already owns multiple buildings in downtown and specifically in Bricktown. He has been deeply involved in the redevelopment of Bricktown nearly since the Neal Horton days, and is a downtown treasure.

Since we opened the Emporium in 2007 he has been kind enough to partner with us on our Oklahoma-themed book collection. When we opened the marketplace in 2010, we actively sought him out and offered him space in one of our large booths, hoping he would do a scaled-down version of Full Circle. After a lot of thought he politely declined.

If he desired to move Full Circle to Bricktown, he would have done it already.

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## Just the facts

> You think it's radical, but it's totally viable. And really, how much "sway" does CVS or Walgreens have in this city? Some cities in Canada are now implementing a "no more than 10 locations" rule (darn you Harvey's), which I think is an awesome idea.


That would be counter-productive in OKC.  That strategy works in Canada becasue they don't have urban sprawl the way we do so limiting retail outlets forces chains to locate in high density areas and not spread out.  OKC is already spreadout so limiting the chains to 10 stores would actually prevent them from expanding in the urban core.  If you want to try something radical then limit the number of parking spaces (no more than 1 parking space for every 5,000 sq feet of space).  They could build all the CVS' they want but they could only put in 2 parking spaces which would force them to only locate in walkable areas.

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## Spartan

> it very much would be not legal .... and very much effects the rights property holders that lease to CVS/Walgreens ..





> That would be counter-productive in OKC.  That strategy works in Canada becasue they don't have urban sprawl the way we do so limiting retail outlets forces chains to locate in high density areas and not spread out.  OKC is already spreadout so limiting the chains to 10 stores would actually prevent them from expanding in the urban core.  If you want to try something radical then limit the number of parking spaces (no more than 1 parking space for every 5,000 sq feet of space).  They could build all the CVS' they want but they could only put in 2 parking spaces which would force them to only locate in walkable areas.


But BoulderSooner would tell you that doing that, or exercising any kind of planning on private property, "very much would not be legal."

And you could also include code enforcement, zoning regulations, urban design overlay districts, the entire city building permit process, not to mention HOAs, all under this very broad umbrella of "very much would be not legal." Or property tax.

I'm sorry, but you don't have complete private property rights in a city. Cities have the right to enact ordinances and govern their land however they see fit. OKC is ridiculously lax in terms of its building standards, and I can't drive that point home enough. There are U.S. cities as well that limit the number of franchises in a city. Seriously, a growing list of cities including San Francisco don't even allow plastic bags to be given out in any of their retail establishments, and I'm not even proposing exercising that much control.

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## Just the facts

> I'm sorry, but you don't have complete private property rights in a city. Cities have the right to enact ordinances and govern their land however they see fit. OKC is ridiculously lax in terms of its building standards, and I can't drive that point home enough. There are U.S. cities as well that limit the number of franchises in a city. Seriously, a growing list of cities including San Francisco don't even allow plastic bags to be given out in any of their retail establishments, and I'm not even proposing exercising that much control.


WalMarts are banned in towns all over the country.  South Central LA has banned all fast-food restaurants.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...les&id=7831475




> EXPOSITION PARK, Calif. (KABC) -- New stand-alone fast food restaurants have been banned from setting up shop in South Los Angeles, due to rising health concerns by the city council.

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## Rover

> WalMarts are banned in towns all over the country.  South Central LA has banned all fast-food restaurants.
> 
> http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...les&id=7831475


The only place I can find considering banning Wal Mart is California and mostly the supercenters, and it is mainly a tax situation, not real estate (has to do with non taxed grocery sales ) .  Btw, the permit  was just issued for the one in LA.  I can find no evidence off them beings banned "all over the country".

And the area ban on fast foods was because the fast food business already made up 75% of the restaurant business...twice the national average.  And, it would be doubtful it would hold up if it ever went to the supreme court.  Cali is famous for overreaching.

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## Questor

Didn't Norman just tell Chuy's they couldn't build in UNP?  Seems like it happens.

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## Spartan

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that we become like Edmond, which we all know uses a tight stranglehold on developers to ensure... that only low-quality developments are built there.

I didn't know Norman said no to Chuy's. Chuy's would have been the one good thing about UNP.

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## Questor

If I remember correctly they told them they weren't a good fit for UNP, which was where they originally scouted. I don't understand it either.  So Chuy's is building on Ed Noble, right next door to Ted's.  Norman seems to love placing competitors right next door to each other.

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## rcjunkie

> If I remember correctly they told them they weren't a good fit for UNP, which was where they originally scouted. I don't understand it either.  So Chuy's is building on Ed Noble, right next door to Ted's.  Norman seems to love placing competitors right next door to each other.


They were denied based entirely on construction material and neither side would budge.

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## stjohn

> You're confirming the point I have been making, which is not so much about Bricktown, but about downtown in general. CVS won't come to downtown due to sparse population (you heard it with your own ears), but Whole Foods or Urban Outfitters will? Sure, UO isn't afraid of urban areas, but in THOSE cities, there is dense and typically affluent population surrounding the site.
> 
> We have to crawl before we can walk. *Build residential, build residential, build residential.* Beyond that, entice other locals to set up shop, and then SUPPORT them. That is the path. Spending a bunch of time hoping for West Elm to be here tomorrow is wasted energy.


Ahem.  Smart residential.  The failed/underperforming high end residential housing developments in and around Bricktown/downtown are the reason the area hasn't grown quicker.  How much income is "disposable income"?  You don't need to be wealthy to have money to spend.  Downtown is just now, almost 20 years after MAPS, starting to develop quality, reasonably priced housing for young people, who, yes, aren't rich, but have money to blow.

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## betts

I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing.  The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking.  As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase.  As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal.  That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age.  The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all.  And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land.  Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people.  It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake.  In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.

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## kevinpate

> They were denied based entirely on construction material and neither side would budge.


What Chuy's is building on the frontage rd isn't ugly, but I tend to agree it would look odd if bundled into the UNP area.  Not a bad call overall.  The food row along I-35 was already distinctive brand dressed so another one fits in better there and gets rid of the dead SF building.  win-win as kate would say.

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## Rover

> I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing.  The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking.  As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase.  As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal.  That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age.  The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all.  And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land.  Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people.  It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake.  In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.


 There was a great article at a new urbanism web site that pointed out that without decent amounts of development on the higher end, as urban living became more popular it tends to drive prices up for all properties and tends to force the lower economic groups out.  The higher economic class merely bids up what is on the market because they have the money to do so.

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## Spartan

> I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing.  The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking.  As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase.  As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal.  That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age.  The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all.  And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land.  Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people.  It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake.  In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.


In my opinion the rentals being developed are higher-end, or at least upper-middle. $850/mo for 600 sf aint cheap, although I would also defend it as very reasonable to people who think that's a "rip-off." I think we've found a niche that is both successful and "just right" demographically, and I'd venture a guess that it is going to take more than 20 years for LEVEL to deteriorate. I think if the downtown occupancy rate remains above 95% once LEVEL, Gary Clark's East Bricktown project, Bradshaw's new project, and the Edge all go online, then we may see some apartment towers begin to go up.

I want to go back to something though, the topic of incentives. There is almost no way around this, and I'd like to start seeing incentives leveraged because I think it is time (due to all the rooftops AND hotels going up) to develop retail. I realize everyone says it's premature it won't develop the market isn't there yet for it, etc. I get that. That's why I said incentives. Cathy O'Connor needs to offer incentives strategically to UO and GAP as well as perhaps some locals and make it perfectly clear that these are the only incentives on the table for anywhere in the city. They need to be good incentives as well. Certainly nowhere near the $20 million+ allegedly needed for a Bloomingdale, but maybe a million or two. I think UO or GAP, ideally both as anchors around existing retail niches, would be a worthy investment of the city.

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## Just the facts

> There was a great article at a new urbanism web site that pointed out that without decent amounts of development on the higher end, as urban living became more popular it tends to drive prices up for all properties and tends to force the lower economic groups out.  The higher economic class merely bids up what is on the market because they have the money to do so.


That is why it is important to get in on the ground floor.  If areas like Capitol Hill ever take off new urbanism style the people living/owning there now will be the first to reap the economic rewards.  So far the areas in OKC that are seeing the most redevelopment haven't had ANYONE living there for generations.  I would love to own a home within 3 blocks of the Plaza District because over the next few years their home values are going to skyrocket.  In 10 years they could easily be worth 3X what they are current priced at, especially if gasoline prices keep going up (and it will).  What the current owners do with that increase in value is up to them.

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## Larry OKC

*Spartan*: was thinking that was low but had to look it up. Basically double the incentive amount you mentioned...
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ing-to-happen/



> Furthermore, very few department stores are being built today, and the incentive packages required to attract one to a downtown location start at *$40 million or more*.


More than double what it cost us for Bass Pro to put it into some perspective. _(Not to detract from the rest of your post)_

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## Spartan

Well, when you put it like that, it almost seems very worthwhile all of a sudden...

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## wschnitt

The building between Club Albi and AMCUCO has building permits in the windows.  That corner is developing nicely.  Are those buildings new?

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## Rover

> WalMarts are banned in towns all over the country.  South Central LA has banned all fast-food restaurants.
> 
> http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...les&id=7831475


The only place I can find considering banning Wal Mart is California and mostly the supercenters, and it is mainly a tax situation, not real estate (has to do with non taxed grocery sales ) .  Btw, the permit  was just issued for the one in LA.  I can find no evidence off them beings banned "all over the country".

And the area ban on fast foods was because the fast food business already made up 75% of the restaurant business...twice the national average.  And, it would be doubtful it would hold up if it ever went to the supreme court.  Cali is famous for overreaching.

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## Questor

Didn't Norman just tell Chuy's they couldn't build in UNP?  Seems like it happens.

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## Spartan

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that we become like Edmond, which we all know uses a tight stranglehold on developers to ensure... that only low-quality developments are built there.

I didn't know Norman said no to Chuy's. Chuy's would have been the one good thing about UNP.

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## Questor

If I remember correctly they told them they weren't a good fit for UNP, which was where they originally scouted. I don't understand it either.  So Chuy's is building on Ed Noble, right next door to Ted's.  Norman seems to love placing competitors right next door to each other.

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## rcjunkie

> If I remember correctly they told them they weren't a good fit for UNP, which was where they originally scouted. I don't understand it either.  So Chuy's is building on Ed Noble, right next door to Ted's.  Norman seems to love placing competitors right next door to each other.


They were denied based entirely on construction material and neither side would budge.

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## stjohn

> You're confirming the point I have been making, which is not so much about Bricktown, but about downtown in general. CVS won't come to downtown due to sparse population (you heard it with your own ears), but Whole Foods or Urban Outfitters will? Sure, UO isn't afraid of urban areas, but in THOSE cities, there is dense and typically affluent population surrounding the site.
> 
> We have to crawl before we can walk. *Build residential, build residential, build residential.* Beyond that, entice other locals to set up shop, and then SUPPORT them. That is the path. Spending a bunch of time hoping for West Elm to be here tomorrow is wasted energy.


Ahem.  Smart residential.  The failed/underperforming high end residential housing developments in and around Bricktown/downtown are the reason the area hasn't grown quicker.  How much income is "disposable income"?  You don't need to be wealthy to have money to spend.  Downtown is just now, almost 20 years after MAPS, starting to develop quality, reasonably priced housing for young people, who, yes, aren't rich, but have money to blow.

----------


## betts

I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing.  The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking.  As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase.  As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal.  That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age.  The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all.  And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land.  Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people.  It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake.  In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.

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## kevinpate

> They were denied based entirely on construction material and neither side would budge.


What Chuy's is building on the frontage rd isn't ugly, but I tend to agree it would look odd if bundled into the UNP area.  Not a bad call overall.  The food row along I-35 was already distinctive brand dressed so another one fits in better there and gets rid of the dead SF building.  win-win as kate would say.

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## Rover

> I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing.  The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking.  As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase.  As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal.  That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age.  The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all.  And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land.  Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people.  It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake.  In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.


 There was a great article at a new urbanism web site that pointed out that without decent amounts of development on the higher end, as urban living became more popular it tends to drive prices up for all properties and tends to force the lower economic groups out.  The higher economic class merely bids up what is on the market because they have the money to do so.

----------


## Spartan

> I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing.  The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking.  As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase.  As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal.  That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age.  The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all.  And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land.  Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people.  It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake.  In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.


In my opinion the rentals being developed are higher-end, or at least upper-middle. $850/mo for 600 sf aint cheap, although I would also defend it as very reasonable to people who think that's a "rip-off." I think we've found a niche that is both successful and "just right" demographically, and I'd venture a guess that it is going to take more than 20 years for LEVEL to deteriorate. I think if the downtown occupancy rate remains above 95% once LEVEL, Gary Clark's East Bricktown project, Bradshaw's new project, and the Edge all go online, then we may see some apartment towers begin to go up.

I want to go back to something though, the topic of incentives. There is almost no way around this, and I'd like to start seeing incentives leveraged because I think it is time (due to all the rooftops AND hotels going up) to develop retail. I realize everyone says it's premature it won't develop the market isn't there yet for it, etc. I get that. That's why I said incentives. Cathy O'Connor needs to offer incentives strategically to UO and GAP as well as perhaps some locals and make it perfectly clear that these are the only incentives on the table for anywhere in the city. They need to be good incentives as well. Certainly nowhere near the $20 million+ allegedly needed for a Bloomingdale, but maybe a million or two. I think UO or GAP, ideally both as anchors around existing retail niches, would be a worthy investment of the city.

----------


## Just the facts

> There was a great article at a new urbanism web site that pointed out that without decent amounts of development on the higher end, as urban living became more popular it tends to drive prices up for all properties and tends to force the lower economic groups out.  The higher economic class merely bids up what is on the market because they have the money to do so.


That is why it is important to get in on the ground floor.  If areas like Capitol Hill ever take off new urbanism style the people living/owning there now will be the first to reap the economic rewards.  So far the areas in OKC that are seeing the most redevelopment haven't had ANYONE living there for generations.  I would love to own a home within 3 blocks of the Plaza District because over the next few years their home values are going to skyrocket.  In 10 years they could easily be worth 3X what they are current priced at, especially if gasoline prices keep going up (and it will).  What the current owners do with that increase in value is up to them.

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## Larry OKC

*Spartan*: was thinking that was low but had to look it up. Basically double the incentive amount you mentioned...
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ing-to-happen/



> Furthermore, very few department stores are being built today, and the incentive packages required to attract one to a downtown location start at *$40 million or more*.


More than double what it cost us for Bass Pro to put it into some perspective. _(Not to detract from the rest of your post)_

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## Spartan

Well, when you put it like that, it almost seems very worthwhile all of a sudden...

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## wschnitt

The building between Club Albi and AMCUCO has building permits in the windows.  That corner is developing nicely.  Are those buildings new?

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