# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  Facemask Mandate

## Jersey Boss

City Council votes 8-1 for mask mandate. Expires Nov. 30, 2020.

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## Ronnie Jackson

That is F’ing Leadership. 

Bee Clark and Lincoln Riley are leaders.

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## LocoAko

Good. And she's stupidly getting hell for it in the comments section, too.

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## HangryHippo

And arent the recall petitions getting filed this week? Unreal.

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## chuck5815

Stillwater also delivering a mask rule. Looks like some folks in the State want D1 Football to be played this year.

Of course, I think that ship has sailed.

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## FighttheGoodFight

I happened to tune into the Youtube stream yesterday. Oh boy the comments were rough. A lot of people seemed like they were about to move to Moore haha!

Happy to see this passed and I hope it will slow the spread here in Norman.

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## Jersey Boss

Also passed last night is a provision that bars close at 10 on weekdays, 11 on weekends.

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## Jersey Boss

> And aren’t the recall petitions getting filed this week? Unreal.


Looks to be a partisan GOP effort. 

Petitions for council, mayor recall to be filed Friday | Don't Miss This | normantranscript.com
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nor...c93e8.amp.html

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## emtefury

Norman businesses will suffer the most.

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## RustytheBailiff

> Norman businesses will suffer the most.


Except for those that catch Covid-19 and die or never fully recover....




STAY SAFE WEAR MASKS.

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## emtefury

> Except for those that catch Covid-19 and die or never fully recover....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> STAY SAFE WEAR MASKS.


The economy plays a large role in mental health and people’s well being. A loss of jobs. Income, and ability to support oneself and family can have a greater effect than a sickness from a virus. 

MY BODY MY CHOICE

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## RustytheBailiff

> The economy plays a large role in mental health and people’s well being. A loss of jobs. Income, and ability to support oneself and family can have a greater effect than a sickness from a virus. 
> 
> MY BODY MY CHOICE


Dead people don't care about the economy!

If your "My Body My Choice" tag is reference to wearing masks, then you are not only disrespectful to community members you encounter,  you are also deluding yourself into a false sense of security.



BE SAFE WEAR MASKS

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## PoliSciGuy

> MY BODY MY CHOICE


Co-opting this as an anti-mask mantra is just the dumbest take. It’s not just about your body but every single person you interact with. Also, this claim doesn’t work for pants, so it’s not going to work for masks.

Other than that though, great stuff.

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## onthestrip

> Norman businesses will suffer the most.


How will a mask mandate make businesses suffer? Maybe it will allow places like restaurants not get an outbreak and have to close down like a handful of OKC restaurants have had to do. Because thats makes businesses suffer.

Also, national retailers are actually asking for mask mandates as its become, what for it, bad for business without them.

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## jedicurt

i'm very glad for the mandate... it was crazy going to Crest the last week and being one of just a handful of people wearing the masks.  and people not even paying attention to the floor marking to keep distance.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> i'm very glad for the mandate... it was crazy going to Crest the last week and being one of just a handful of people wearing the masks.  and people not even paying attention to the floor marking to keep distance.


I went to crest this morning. The management was working on getting signs up to make sure people wear masks. It looks like they plan to enforce it at least.

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## dankrutka

> the economy plays a large role in mental health and people’s well being. A loss of jobs. Income, and ability to support oneself and family can have a greater effect than a sickness from a virus. 
> 
> My body my choice


mask policies are good for the economy. No mask policies are bad for the economy. 

Not wearing a mask is about hurting other people's bodies, not your own.

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## jedicurt

> I went to crest this morning. The management was working on getting signs up to make sure people wear masks. It looks like they plan to enforce it at least.


great to know. i have to head there today after i finish work. hopefully more people will be covered

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## jedicurt

> I went to crest this morning. The management was working on getting signs up to make sure people wear masks. It looks like they plan to enforce it at least.


great to know. i have to head there today after i finish work. hopefully more people will be covered

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## Bunty

> I happened to tune into the Youtube stream yesterday. Oh boy the comments were rough. A lot of people seemed like they were about to move to Moore haha!
> 
> Happy to see this passed and I hope it will slow the spread here in Norman.


I don't think I'd trust those people to wear a mask in public even if they tested positive for the virus.

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## PhiAlpha

Agree with the policy though it’s a bit ironic that they’re giving the police one more thing to enforce after cutting their funding by 3% for no good reason other than virtue signaling...as evidenced by the fact that even after an 11 hour meeting and now several weeks...they still don’t know what they want to reallocate the funding to. Good leadership on the mask mandate...bad leadership for cutting funding to the police (who everyone thinks need better training, need to hire better and need more resources...all of which require funding) before having any idea where they were going to reallocate it and how much would be needed for those causes because it was the trendy thing to do. I would be willing to bet that the city council will have difficulty enforcing this after pointlessly torching the bridge with law enforcement.

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## GoGators

> Agree with the policy though its a bit ironic that theyre giving the police one more thing to enforce after cutting their funding by 3% for no good reason other than virtue signaling...as evidenced by the fact that even after an 11 hour meeting and now several weeks...they still dont know what they want to reallocate the funding to. Good leadership on the mask mandate...bad leadership for cutting funding to the police before having any idea where they were going to reallocate it and how much would be needed for those causes because it was the trendy thing to do. I would be willing to bet that the city council will have difficulty enforcing this after pointlessly torching the bridge with law enforcement.


I would assume police are adults and will do their job. If they wont then they shouldnt be police in the first place.

We cut the education budget and still expect teachers to teach. Whats the difference?

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## PhiAlpha

> I would assume police are adults and will do their job. If they won’t then they shouldn’t be police in the first place.
> 
> We cut the education budget and still expect teachers to teach. What’s the difference?


This was done for no reason other than for show...not to save money or divert to anything else hence the fact that no other purpose has been chosen...It was done just for the hell of it because it was the cool thing to do...all the hip liberal cities were doing it so they thought they should do it too. It was virtue signaling as opposed to attempting to save money, that’s the difference. Cutting funding to education isn’t something I agree with either but this isn’t remotely the same thing.

Teachers probably don’t teach as well when they aren’t paid as much and when they have fewer resources.

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## TheTravellers

> I would assume police are adults and will do their job. If they won’t then they shouldn’t be police in the first place.
> 
> We cut the education budget and still expect teachers to teach. What’s the difference?


Not all cops think like adults, and you're right, this guy should not be a cop.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ohio-...b67a80bc033b8e

"But the sheriff, who supports President Donald Trump, insisted, “I’m not going to be the mask police. Period.”"

Um, yes, yes, you are literally the mask police and you should be disciplined for not enforcing the mask mandate.

Having said that, I agree w/PhiAlpha, they shouldn't've cut the funding.  Figure out how to fix the broken parts, then do *that*. There are tons of resources available on the net for anybody to see on how to restructure/reallocate things in the force for a better result, not hard to find at all, and if they can implement a defunding initiative, they can figure out how to do the *right* thing.

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## jerrywall

> I would assume police are adults and will do their job. If they won’t then they shouldn’t be police in the first place.
> 
> We cut the education budget and still expect teachers to teach. What’s the difference?


Do we?  They walked out over it not to long ago, and we've seen a mass exodus of teachers from Oklahoma to states like Texas, and it's been routinely pointed out how that's resulting in lower qualified teachers in the classrooms. Surely that would be a bad thing in law enforcement as well?   Also, the fix was more show than actually addressing issues.  Would you fix institutional racism in colleges by cutting higher ed funding? "Defund the police" doesn't really mean just cut some funding and call it done.

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## mattjank

> Agree with the policy though it’s a bit ironic that they’re giving the police one more thing to enforce after cutting their funding by 3% for no good reason other than virtue signaling...as evidenced by the fact that even after an 11 hour meeting and now several weeks...they still don’t know what they want to reallocate the funding to. Good leadership on the mask mandate...bad leadership for cutting funding to the police (who everyone thinks need better training, need to hire better and need more resources...all of which require funding) before having any idea where they were going to reallocate it and how much would be needed for those causes because it was the trendy thing to do. I would be willing to bet that the city council will have difficulty enforcing this after pointlessly torching the bridge with law enforcement.


Also, can we really call it a cut? The police were asking for just over a 3% increase in their budget for next year, and they only received an increase of .15% or so. More money next year is a cut? 

Personally all for it if they redirect it to mental health services as discussed. That is much needed in the community.

But back to the facemasks, good on them for trying to slow the spread.

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## PhiAlpha

> Not all cops think like adults, and you're right, this guy should not be a cop.
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ohio-...b67a80bc033b8e
> 
> "But the sheriff, who supports President Donald Trump, insisted, Im not going to be the mask police. Period."
> 
> Um, yes, yes, you are literally the mask police and you should be disciplined for not enforcing the mask mandate.
> 
> *Having said that, I agree w/PhiAlpha, they shouldn't've cut the funding.  Figure out how to fix the broken parts, then do *that*. There are tons of resources available on the net for anybody to see on how to restructure/reallocate things in the force for a better result, not hard to find at all, and if they can implement a defunding initiative, they can figure out how to do the *right* thing*.


We agree on something!!! :Wink:  lol

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## TheTravellers

> We agree on something!!! lol


I think there were one or two other things, but yeah, blue moon....  :Smiley199:

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## PhiAlpha

> Also, can we really call it a cut? The police were asking for just over a 3% increase in their budget for next year, and they only received an increase of .15% or so. More money next year is a cut? 
> 
> *Personally all for it if they redirect it to mental health services as discussed.* That is much needed in the community.
> 
> But back to the facemasks, good on them for trying to slow the spread.


This was my main issue...they did it without/before even deciding where they would divert the funding. It just screamed virtue signaling and something that was done for no reason other than the sake of doing it.  I still don't think they should've cut funding to a department that is already strapped for resources, especially when additional training, more/better hiring, and additional resources are what would actually help solve some of the issues that they want to "fix" but at least have a better plan in place so it at least looks like it's being done for a purpose other than publicity. I really would've preferred that they find another funding source and put that into mental health than cut it out of the police dept.  Hell, find a way to get some (or more) psych professionals into the police dept to accompany the police on calls where a mental health issue may be a suspected cause.

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## PhiAlpha

> I think there were one or two other things, but yeah, blue moon....


Yes, there definitely have been others haha. But still  :Smiley077:

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## TheTravellers

> ...Hell, find a way to get some (or more) psych professionals into the police to accompany the police dept on calls where a mental health issue may be a suspected cause.


Absolutely this, we (USA) need to find a way to start swinging the pendulum back the other way WRT mental health funding, it's gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far to the bad side (and has been happening for waaaaaaaaaaaaay too many decades).

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## dankrutka

> This was done for no reason other than for show...not to save money or divert to anything else hence the fact that no other purpose has been chosen...It was done just for the hell of it because it was the cool thing to do...all the hip liberal cities were doing it so they thought they should do it too. It was virtue signaling as opposed to attempting to save money, that’s the difference. Cutting funding to education isn’t something I agree with either but this isn’t remotely the same thing.
> 
> Teachers probably don’t teach as well when they aren’t paid as much and when they have fewer resources.


I mean, there are very clear plans from those advocating for defunding police about where the diverted money should go. Many cities are implementing those types of plans, but it also doesn't happen overnight. 

Having said that, I didn't follow closely enough... did they not suggest the diverted money would go to, for example, mental health councilors? I've seen very clear plans on how to divert funds so it's disappointing if they didn't have a plan.

Note: Please know the difference between defunding some police funds to provide that money to other services like mental health councilors and social workers and abolishing police. They're not the same thing.

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## Jersey Boss

630k to Community Outreach & development. The city will review community needs before allocation.
235k for an internal auditor to monitor O.T.
The cut reps a 3.6 % of a 23M cop budget.
My guess is the tax loss is greater than 3.6%.
No Norman Music Fest, Midevil Fair, and Jazz in June.

Norman City Council votes to cut police funding
https://www.google.com/amp/s/oklahom...ce-funding/amp

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## jedicurt

> Figure out how to fix the broken parts, then do *that*. There are tons of resources available on the net for anybody to see on how to restructure/reallocate things in the force for a better result, not hard to find at all, and if they can implement a defunding initiative, they can figure out how to do the *right* thing.


the problem is that in some cases the broken part is the Union, and the only way to fix that broken part is to completely disband the current police force.    Go look at Camden NJ  before the got rid of the unionized police force, it cost them $182,168 per office, but Officers were only paid an average of around 62,000.   after getting rid of the union, the reason they were able to bring most of the police officers back to their newly created department was because the cost per officer dropped to 99,605 and the average officer pay went from 62,000 to just above 80,000 (the rest is training, insurance, etc.)     Police Unions have created a system where police are more expensive than they need to be, because of the bureaucracy that is the Union, also the Unions have in some places created a culture where it is impossible to get rid of a bad officer, and good officers are discouraged from reporting bad officers.

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## TheTravellers

> the problem is that in some cases the broken part is the Union, and the only way to fix that broken part is to completely disband the current police force.    Go look at Camden NJ  before the got rid of the unionized police force, it cost them $182,168 per office, but Officers were only paid an average of around 62,000.   after getting rid of the union, the reason they were able to bring most of the police officers back to their newly created department was because the cost per officer dropped to 99,605 and the average officer pay went from 62,000 to just above 80,000 (the rest is training, insurance, etc.)     Police Unions have created a system where police are more expensive than they need to be, because of the bureaucracy that is the Union, also the Unions have in some places created a culture where it is impossible to get rid of a bad officer, and good officers are discouraged from reporting bad officers.


Great points, I hadn't even considered the unions, thx for the enlightenment.

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## BoulderSooner

> the problem is that in some cases the broken part is the Union, and the only way to fix that broken part is to completely disband the current police force.    Go look at Camden NJ  before the got rid of the unionized police force, it cost them $182,168 per office, but Officers were only paid an average of around 62,000.   after getting rid of the union, the reason they were able to bring most of the police officers back to their newly created department was because the cost per officer dropped to 99,605 and the average officer pay went from 62,000 to just above 80,000 (the rest is training, insurance, etc.)     Police Unions have created a system where police are more expensive than they need to be, because of the bureaucracy that is the Union, also the Unions have in some places created a culture where it is impossible to get rid of a bad officer, and good officers are discouraged from reporting bad officers.


this is spot on

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## Jersey Boss

> the problem is that in some cases the broken part is the Union, and the only way to fix that broken part is to completely disband the current police force.    Go look at Camden NJ  before the got rid of the unionized police force, it cost them $182,168 per office, but Officers were only paid an average of around 62,000.   after getting rid of the union, the reason they were able to bring most of the police officers back to their newly created department was because the cost per officer dropped to 99,605 and the average officer pay went from 62,000 to just above 80,000 (the rest is training, insurance, etc.)     Police Unions have created a system where police are more expensive than they need to be, because of the bureaucracy that is the Union, also the Unions have in some places created a culture where it is impossible to get rid of a bad officer, and good officers are discouraged from reporting bad officers.


Another area that needs to be addressed is the DA .
I can cite several cases of selective enforcement/non enforcement of cases directly involving cops, city council.

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## jerrywall

There's a whole lot that could be said about the problems with the concept of public sector unions, but it's far afield from the thread topic.

On the facemasks side, the big surprise for me is the length of time.  I would have expected it to be put into place for 30 days chunks or such.  5 months is a pretty significant commitment.  I wonder if they'll second guess that decision at some point.

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## Jersey Boss

I'm sure the CC has the authority and power to amend any ordinance .
Also I would like to add it serves more as a notice of the seriousness Norman looks at this then a very limited 2 week time span that the OKC mayor implemented.

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## TheTravellers

> There's a whole lot that could be said about the problems with the concept of public sector unions, but it's far afield from the thread topic.
> 
> On the facemasks side, the big surprise for me is the length of time.  I would have expected it to be put into place for 30 days chunks or such.  5 months is a pretty significant commitment.  I wonder if they'll second guess that decision at some point.


Probably will.  I'd rather see longer times, then remove it if things get better, rather than Holt's 2-week one, which almost undoubtedly will get extended.  Seems better to err on the side of caution with this.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> I'm sure the CC has the authority and power to amend any ordinance .
> Also I would like to add it serves more as a notice of the seriousness Norman looks at this then a very limited 2 week time span that the OKC mayor implemented.


I believe the Nov. 30th is more just a sunset of it. If things change they could revoke the ordinance in two meetings.

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## jerrywall

> Probably will.  I'd rather see longer times, then remove it if things get better, rather than Holt's 2-week one, which almost undoubtedly will get extended.  Seems better to err on the side of caution with this.


I can see that, but I'm more just falling on the side of knowing people and what folks would be happy with.  Doing it in blocks (say 30 days) shows flexibility, and you can keep extending (or just let it expire if it comes to a point that the ordinance is no longer needed).  It's less likely that they would reverse it or end it early though, IMO.  I know any sort of mask ordinance would be a hard sell in Edmond, but even if and when they pass one, I don't think they'll have the public support to put a policy in place for that length of time.  Either way, it wasn't a value judgement, just more of surprise.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> I can see that, but I'm more just falling on the side of knowing people and what folks would be happy with.  Doing it in blocks (say 30 days) shows flexibility, and you can keep extending (or just let it expire if it comes to a point that the ordinance is no longer needed).  It's less likely that they would reverse it or end it early though, IMO.  I know any sort of mask ordinance would be a hard sell in Edmond, but even if and when they pass one, I don't think they'll have the public support to put a policy in place for that length of time.  Either way, it wasn't a value judgement, just more of surprise.


I am sure the city council doesn't want to have to listen to the complaints every thirty days they renew it. The stuff people say at these meetings is mind boggling. 

Went to Sams this morning. Saw maybe 2 people without a mask of about 20 or so there. No sign there yet to mandate mask.

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## Bill Robertson

> Probably will.  I'd rather see longer times, then remove it if things get better, rather than Holt's 2-week one, which almost undoubtedly will get extended.  Seems better to err on the side of caution with this.


Along with the mandate Holt mentioned that his emergency authority is about to run out and the decisions will be transferred to the city council. I wonder if the short time period might have something to do with that. As soon as things are on the city council Holt can say he didn’t make people wear masks, etc.

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## chuck5815

> There's a whole lot that could be said about the problems with the concept of public sector unions, but it's far afield from the thread topic.
> 
> *On the facemasks side, the big surprise for me is the length of time.*  I would have expected it to be put into place for 30 days chunks or such.  5 months is a pretty significant commitment.  I wonder if they'll second guess that decision at some point.


it covers all of the scheduled home games. this mandate is driven, in large part, by a desire to have OU football games take place this Fall.

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## jerrywall

> it covers all of the scheduled home games. this mandate is driven, in large part, by a desire to have OU football games take place this Fall.


Good point.

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## TheTravellers

> Along with the mandate Holt mentioned that his emergency authority is about to run out and the decisions will be transferred to the city council. I wonder if the short time period might have something to do with that. As soon as things are on the city council Holt can say he didn’t make people wear masks, etc.


Ah yes, forgot about the emergency authorizations expiring, and I think the state emergency authority is expiring soon too, good point.  I've written Cooper asking him to implement a mandate.

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## mugofbeer

My COSTCO had a guy handing people sanitized carts and monitoring people for masks.  He stopped a woman who had forgotten to put hers on but was carrying it.  This was besides to guy checking your card.+

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## ZacHolley

So who would the moderator of this board be that decided to go in and delete my post from earlier today? Please private message me so you can explain what I posted that was against the rules 

in the meantime someone please explain with science proof showing where a mask does a single bit of good against a virus....

Here is my proof that it doesnt work

*** LINK DELETED BY MODERATOR DUE TO DISINFORMATION ***

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## Pete

> So who would the moderator of this board be that decided to go in and delete my post from earlier today? Please private message me so you can explain what I posted that was against the rules 
> 
> in the meantime someone please explain with science proof showing where a mask does a single bit of good against a virus....


We've been over this many times and decided science has demonstrated over and over again that masks help.

We're not allowing the site to be used to spread disinformation.

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## RustytheBailiff

> my costco had a guy handing people sanitized carts and monitoring people for masks.  He stopped a woman who had forgotten to put hers on but was carrying it.  This was besides to guy checking your card.+


my (former) costco kicked me out for complaining about others not wearing masks.

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## PoliSciGuy

Here's a small sampling of peer-reviewed studies showing masks work:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...142-9/fulltext

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10...aff.2020.00818

http://ftp.iza.org/dp13319.pdf

https://gh.bmj.com/content/5/5/e002794

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e4.htm

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....27.20115139v5

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v3

Masks aren't a panacea, but they definitely do work.

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## Ross MacLochness

> We've been over this many times and decided science has demonstrated over and over again that masks help.
> 
> We're not allowing the site to be used to spread disinformation.


The "scientists" have been pretending for hundreds of years- inventing, discovering new things about the universe, curing disease, progressing in their knowledge year after year for this moment: so that they can deceive the world about a hoax virus so that Americans in 2020, who will be thinking they are helping the stop the spread of an infectious disease, will actually willfully be giving up their civil rights to totalitarian beta cuck left wing rioting joe biden voters.  Wake up sheeple. smh

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## Jersey Boss

Another failure of this rag tag bunch of the No Nothing crowd, Norman affiliate. 

UPDATED: Judge declines to suspend one of Norman’s mask ordinances | News | normantranscript.com
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nor...96fc0.amp.html

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## Midtowner

> will actually willfully be giving up their civil rights to totalitarian beta cuck left wing rioting joe biden voters.  Wake up sheeple. smh


You do not have the right to disobey public health regulations so long as they are lawfully passed. In Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the Supreme Court holding shows that the states and their political subdivisions have police powers, among them is the regulation of public health. In that particular case, the Court upheld mandatory vaccinations with zero exceptions. In that case, the person complaining about their made up rights was a pastor who had a bad reaction to a vaccine in his childhood and was afraid what would happen should he be vaccinated again.

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## Midtowner

> Another failure of this rag tag bunch of the No Nothing crowd, Norman affiliate. 
> 
> UPDATED: Judge declines to suspend one of Norman’s mask ordinances | News | normantranscript.com
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nor...96fc0.amp.html


The No-Nothing's lawyer made the only argument he could. He basically just took his client's money and filed a definite loser of a case. I believe only once or twice I've ever seen a law overturned for failing the rational basis test--which is the test prescribed in Jacobson, i.e., that the law must be rationally related to some legitimate government goal. 

Hello?

Public health?  CDC recommendations? Untie Norman epic fail as per usual.

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## Pete

> You do not have the right to disobey public health regulations so long as they are lawfully passed. In Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the Supreme Court holding shows that the states and their political subdivisions have police powers, among them is the regulation of public health. In that particular case, the Court upheld mandatory vaccinations with zero exceptions. In that case, the person complaining about their made up rights was a pastor who had a bad reaction to a vaccine in his childhood and was afraid what would happen should he be vaccinated again.


The post you quoted and are responding to was dripping with sarcasm.

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## Midtowner

> The post you quoted and are responding to was dripping with sarcasm.


It's tough to tell these days.

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## Bunty

Don't get why people are more upset about required mask wear than the government shutting down or restricting businesses.   The government doing that is worse on freedom and the economy than masks.

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## mugofbeer

I think it's been pretty clearly stated shutting down business isn't going to happen again.  Shutting down the government is unrealistic and simply won't happen.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I think it's been pretty clearly stated shutting down business isn't going to happen again.  Shutting down the government is unrealistic and simply won't happen.


It’s happening in California again. LA is undergoing another stay at home order for 2 or 3 weeks.

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