# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  I240 Revitalization Efforts

## ljbab728

Retail shining crew forming for Interstate 240, south Oklahoma City loop | News OK

----------


## bombermwc

Why do they think it's lost it's reatil luster? I don't know of any blank areas of nothingness there....

----------


## Larry OKC

There are a couple of holes but the most glaring is Crossroads Mall with most of its anchors headed south to Moore, but as far as the rest of it goes, I agree with you *bombermwc*

----------


## Spartan

> Why do they think it's lost it's reatil luster? I don't know of any blank areas of nothingness there....


Because it used to be the southside's premier retail corridor. Now I'd say even MWC has outdone it with the town center. However, it sounds as if they hope to answer sprawl with more sprawl. Yaaayyy planning

----------


## kevinpate

> There are a couple of holes but the most glaring is Crossroads Mall with most of its anchors headed south to Moore, but as far as the rest of it goes, I agree with you *bombermwc*


But that's not really accurate, except for JCP.  
Dillard's dinna go south to Moore, nor did Macy's.  
Nor did the defunct Steve/Barry's that had been in the long ago defunct Monkey Ward space.

----------


## ljbab728

> Because it used to be the southside's premier retail corridor. Now I'd say even MWC has outdone it with the town center. However, it sounds as if they hope to answer sprawl with more sprawl. Yaaayyy planning


Wrong, Spartan.  The "sprawl" is already there and they are hoping to reinvigorate that area.  They aren't planning any developments further out to contribute to sprawl.  Did you note that they are working with the ULI?  You have no idea what they are planning and are already panning it.  Would you prefer that the area become a wasteland?  Any freeway is part of a face of OKC whether it's urban or not and it needs to both look and be successful.

----------


## Brett

I honestly have never been east of Post Rd. on I-240. Is that where the problem lies or is it everything west of Post Rd.(in which I do not see much of a problem)?

----------


## Larry OKC

> But that's not really accurate, except for JCP.  
> Dillard's dinna go south to Moore, nor did Macy's.  
> Nor did the defunct Steve/Barry's that had been in the long ago defunct Monkey Ward space.


 You are correct, but the fact remains, the anchors left at once you lose anchors many of the smaller stores cant survive either...they depend on the foot traffic that the anchors bring

----------


## SoonerDave

The development along I-240 lost quite a bit of steam (what didn't) with the economic meltdown. The 240 Penn Plaza was going to expand to the immediate west, and there was also talk of Home Depot relocating (due to the interchange rebuild) about three miles west to the Walnut Creek plaza, but all those things more or less fizzled. The interchange rebuild, last I heard, was altered such that HD no longer needs to move, but I've heard nothing new about Penn Plaza expanding.

Hobby Lobby's entrance into Walnut Creek has perked up that center more than I expected, but there are still plenty of unoccupied spaces in that mall. I'm not at all convince Conn's is long for the OKC market, esp. given they've already closed their Edmond location and I've heard some folks have been burned by their limited- or no-returns policy. Can't vouch for that either way, as I've never really shopped there. 

The problem for I-240 redevelopment is, IMHO, the stretch that starts approximately a half-mile west of Penn and extends to May on the south side of the expressway. That apartment complex was a rough area back when my wife lived there back in her single days, and it seems rare to go a week without hearing about some sort of criminal activity. Same goes for that nasty little hotel just east of May behind the out-of-business gas station. The abandoned Skaggs/Albertsons on the NE corner of that intersection is already a hard sell, and the strip mall that existed to its south and east was converted to storage facilities about two years ago.

Crossroads is an intractable problem, unfortunately, as we've seen nothing to indicate the new owners are really doing anything with the property. The I-240 interchange rebuild, over the long haul, also casts a shadow over what can be done around that movie theater and the Texas RoadHouse that sits on the outparcels just east of the hotels. Best Buy has moved out of their big location, and I can't see it becoming retail again anytime soon. 

I have a feeling OKC and the S. OKC Chamber missed a chance to manage the 240 corridor by not aggressively seeking out the same kinds of incentives Moore did for its shops, and the rest, as they say, is history. I certainly won't throw dirt on the area, but I also think it will take some creative effort to get interest in the area circulating again. I certainly hope they're successful.

----------


## kevinpate

> You are correct, but the fact remains, the anchors left at once you lose anchors many of the smaller stores cant survive either...they depend on the foot traffic that the anchors bring



I don't know how CR mall shoppes do it, but many there in 07 and before continue to go on without anchors bringing foot traffic.  The anchors have been gone a few years now and somehow enough folks still come to help the small guys rock along.  Some of those have left as well but others seem to keep on plugging.  I don't know if they have such strong following, or if there are that many people who go there purely from habit, but folk still go.  I used to be among them but not so much these days.

----------


## catch22

I think some of those stores might be locked in to leases and will probably move out as leases expire, unless something turns around pretty quick.

----------


## Questor

SoonerDave interesting you mention the apartments. I heard a rumor a while back that someone wanted to raze them and put in more shopping all along that area. No idea how true that might be. 

Crossroads Mall reminds me of Six Flags Mall in Arlington... Just an absolute disaster. Terrible and no idea what might make it better.

----------


## SoonerBoy18

It most certainly isnt a backroad, thousands of people use that for a quicker drive to the Norman area and to Dallas-Ft Worth

----------


## megax11

I want to believe that the city cares about putting lots of retail here on southside (I-240), but I won't believe it until I see it.

With two dorks buying Crossroads Mall, just to twiddle their thumbs like amateurs, I no longer believe anything I hear.

Actions speak louder than words.

----------


## ljbab728

> I want to believe that the city cares about putting lots of retail here on southside (I-240), but I won't believe it until I see it.
> 
> With two dorks buying Crossroads Mall, just to twiddle their thumbs like amateurs, I no longer believe anything I hear.
> 
> Actions speak louder than words.


An update.

http://newsok.com/urban-land-institu...rticle/3656369

As you can see, while the city planning department is involved it is not really a "city" project so I'm not sure what you're saying about if the "city" cares.

----------


## flintysooner

> http://newsok.com/urban-land-institu...rticle/3656369
> Humphreys raises question
> 
> That prompted former Oklahoma City mayor and developer Kirk Humphreys to ask Eitler from the audience *what could be done about aggressive retail recruitment by neighboring municipalities Midwest City and Moore throwing money at retailers, giving them money they can't refuse.*
> 
> Humphreys said, It's almost like the free enterprise system is competing with the governments. It's pretty blatant. I don't think a nuclear strike is an option.


Moore has only passed 4 sales tax incentive packages.  

Shops at Moore received one which has now expired.  I believe the payout was about 1/2 of the maximum.  And Shops at Moore provided a pretty nice power center to replace a rather blighted 1/2 mile on I-35.  

Target only opened 21 stores in 2011 and one was in Moore only because of the incentive.  If the incentive had not been offered there were plenty of other places in the United States that were offering far better packages just to get jobs.  

The Imax received a package.

The most recent is for Dick's which will only be realized if there is a store built. 

If you include what was paid to Shops at Moore plus the maximum of the other 3 it sums to about $8 Million or a little less.

Oklahoma City spent $3.9 Million on infrastructure and gave a $5.5 Million sales tax package to the Outlet Mall project alone.  As stated in the article the Bass Pro incentive was about $17 Million.

----------


## jn1780

nm double post

----------


## jn1780

It was tax incentives AND the fact that the stores wanted to build closer to where the money was. If OKC offered the same amount of tax incentives as Moore the retail shops would have still choose Moore or not built at all.

The city is also competing  with itself with all its efforts to revitalize the urban core. So it kind of has two competing ideas going on at the same time.




> It most certainly isnt a backroad, thousands of people use that for a quicker drive to the Norman area and to Dallas-Ft Worth


Yeah, I wonder how big a difference the new I-40 and boulevard will make when everything is completed.

----------


## Spartan

Let's not forget that what happened with Bass Pro was reprehensible.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Let's not forget that what happened with Bass Pro was reprehensible.


Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro.  It was a great investment for OKC.  Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro.  Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up.  I this case they did and it is still paying off big time.  I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.

----------


## lasomeday

> An update.
> 
> http://newsok.com/urban-land-institu...rticle/3656369
> 
> As you can see, while the city planning department is involved it is not really a "city" project so I'm not sure what you're saying about if the "city" cares.


The planning department can help in changing zoning rules.  They should be contacted and involved in all major developments private or public.

----------


## Larry OKC

> Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro.  It was a great investment for OKC.  Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro.  Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up.  I this case they did and it is still paying off big time.  I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.


Do you have any links on that?  The last I read on it (several years ago now) indicated otherwise. It was considered a failure to the extent that it would be cited by those opposed to their communities offering similar incentives to bring Bass Pro. It is fairly well documented that Bass Pro over promises and under delivers in community after community. Part of the OKC deal: 



> "The PGAV study, which was approved by the city council unanimously in November 2001, promised the city up to 920 new jobs..."


Along with the financial promises made, how many employees does the OKC Bass Pro have? In explaining away the missed projections, Bass Pro used excuses like it being a small store, not having the amenities needed etc. Weren't those factors taken into consideration when the projections were made? Before it opened, Bass Pro made several changes to the building adding to the cost (and rent) yet they still missed projections by multi-millions. Like I said, maybe it turned around and what you said may now be true. I did a google search for updated info and dug 10 pages deep in various searches but didn't come up with anything. Any help would be appreciated.

----------


## Spartan

> Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro.  It was a great investment for OKC.  Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro.  Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up.  I this case they did and it is still paying off big time.  I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.


Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments. 

Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal, did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. The court of public opinion in this city vilified the fellow because he had an ethnic name and wasn't bringing a hillbilly supercenter. 

More recent attempts at retail economic development have in fact been extremely successful, to date at least. Here I'm referring to the outlet mall, and offering that up as a great example. The operative point there however is that at this point OKC is willing to invest in destination retail and big projects that make a difference, but will not leverage incentives for the same level of retail as Moore and MWC (ie., sorry Target). 

And yes, I am going to go ahead and say "Let 240 continue to fall into disrepair." It will probably be better for the southside. Consider the alternatives--what stores are they going to throw large wads of cash at to locate on I-240, Target perhaps? I can easily see that being the first retailer they attempt to lure, which would leave a vital neighborhood anchor at SW 44th and Western completely dark with no foreseeable replacement. This at a time that the city is making significant headway on a SW 44th Street corridor plan, including installing decorative intersections at Walker, Western, and Douglass. 

So if we're going to propose reviving I-240 at the expense of a potential urban comeback along SW 44th, I'm going to be very negative on that. And that is exactly how I see this attempt along I-240. And yes, I do fault the Urban Land Institute for its involvement in this idiotic endeavor, and they should know better than this. 

Metro equality is becoming a problem, there is a growing disparity between north and south in OKC, and this should be addressed, as should sales tax seepage on the south side of the metro. We do not need a temporary patch, and don't need to solve the problem by exacerbating it. When I-240 came into existence, the southside's wealth concentration moved south and you saw areas between downtown and 74th begin to rapidly deteriorate. I believe in south-side revitalization, and I believe that has to happen by taking advantage of unique opportunities along 44th.

----------


## ljbab728

Spartan, you seem to be of the opinion that 44th has to compete against I240 and it's one or the other.  That's no more true than saying Midtown has to compete with Deep Deuce.  Letting one area go downhill just to build up another area makes no sense at all, especially when the area you want to abandon is as "in your face" as I240.

----------


## Spartan

I agree that petty no-sum politics aren't the way to go. The difference though is that downtown is a lot more established and on a lot better footing than the south side right now.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments. 
> 
> Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal, did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. The court of public opinion in this city vilified the fellow because he had an ethnic name and wasn't bringing a hillbilly supercenter. 
> 
> More recent attempts at retail economic development have in fact been extremely successful, to date at least. Here I'm referring to the outlet mall, and offering that up as a great example. The operative point there however is that at this point OKC is willing to invest in destination retail and big projects that make a difference, but will not leverage incentives for the same level of retail as Moore and MWC (ie., sorry Target). 
> 
> And yes, I am going to go ahead and say "Let 240 continue to fall into disrepair." It will probably be better for the southside. Consider the alternatives--what stores are they going to throw large wads of cash at to locate on I-240, Target perhaps? I can easily see that being the first retailer they attempt to lure, which would leave a vital neighborhood anchor at SW 44th and Western completely dark with no foreseeable replacement. This at a time that the city is making significant headway on a SW 44th Street corridor plan, including installing decorative intersections at Walker, Western, and Douglass. 
> 
> So if we're going to propose reviving I-240 at the expense of a potential urban comeback along SW 44th, I'm going to be very negative on that. And that is exactly how I see this attempt along I-240. And yes, I do fault the Urban Land Institute for its involvement in this idiotic endeavor, and they should know better than this. 
> ...


I am gald to see thay you realize that you are struggling with being enthusiastic.  Bass Pro is an embassasment?  In who's eyes?  Yours? (certainly not a suprise to anyone there) It is certainly not the tens of thousands of out of state visitors that stop there and spend there money in Oklahoma City every year. That is also a factor that impacts other local businesses. And you continue on saying that Bass Pro did not care about Bricktown and just wanted to be by the I-40/I -35 coridor.  So what?  No one ever said that they came her because they "cared deeply for Bricktown"  It is BUSINESS.  It sounds like you have a lot of negative issues about Oklahoma City that you need to deal with.

----------


## catch22

What frustrates me is this city works without knowing what the other hand is doing. The airport and city planning are trying to get a retail corridor going on the new Portland Ave east of the airport when Portland gets realigned more as a frontage road along I-44 between 104th and 54th....

Yet this city planning group working on this project has no idea of this project and is trying to get even more development on I-240 sucking away any potential interest in the other planning staff trying to get a new retail corridor going on the other side of the highway.

----------


## GaryOKC6

You are correct in that it does happen a lot with city projects.  The efforts to fill the retail vacancies are primarily the effort of the South and Greater OKC Chambers.  The Greater OKC Chamber focuses on economic development for the city and the South Chamber has a direct interest in seeing that portion of the city grow.  Then you have property owners and commercial realtors that have a working interest in the area as well.  I this case they have all joined forces to try and stimulate the area.  There is one new retailer that is coming into this market and  currently building the first 50,000 + store in north okc.  I am wondering if they are considering one of the vacant big box stores on south I-240.

----------


## G.Walker

> I honestly have never been east of Post Rd. on I-240. Is that where the problem lies or is it everything west of Post Rd.(in which I do not see much of a problem)?


That is what I don't understand, the City is targeting an area that ia already vibrant with retail luster. If anything they need to focus on the area along east I-240 between I-35 and Post Rd. This area has a new heart hospital, and constructing new office building which will bring some good traffic to the area.

----------


## Spartan

> I am gald to see thay you realize that you are struggling with being enthusiastic.  Bass Pro is an embassasment?  In who's eyes?  Yours? (certainly not a suprise to anyone there) It is certainly not the tens of thousands of out of state visitors that stop there and spend there money in Oklahoma City every year. That is also a factor that impacts other local businesses. And you continue on saying that Bass Pro did not care about Bricktown and just wanted to be by the I-40/I -35 coridor.  So what?  No one ever said that they came her because they "cared deeply for Bricktown"  It is BUSINESS.  It sounds like you have a lot of negative issues about Oklahoma City that you need to deal with.


Unbelievable. First of all, the city regularly utilizes its right to intervene in property matters. That is also "business," the city's that is. Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those rednecks out on the edge of town, maybe that fancy area along Memorial Road. Inappropriate in Bricktown, especially for a project that wouldn't have happened without major government backing.

----------


## ljbab728

> What frustrates me is this city works without knowing what the other hand is doing. The airport and city planning are trying to get a retail corridor going on the new Portland Ave east of the airport when Portland gets realigned more as a frontage road along I-44 between 104th and 54th....
> 
> Yet this city planning group working on this project has no idea of this project and is trying to get even more development on I-240 sucking away any potential interest in the other planning staff trying to get a new retail corridor going on the other side of the highway.


catch, what do you base that statement on?  Again we have someone saying that we should pit one development area against another one.  If you want to argue about Moore vs OKC development that's a different matter.  This is all in OKC and not that far apart.  One area can compliment the other if done correctly.

----------


## ljbab728

> Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those *rednecks* out on the edge of town,


Spartan, that statement is a little elitist and beneath you.  I'm not defending Bass Pro but that's not cool.

----------


## oneforone

> Unbelievable. First of all, the city regularly utilizes its right to intervene in property matters. That is also "business," the city's that is. Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those rednecks out on the edge of town, maybe that fancy area along Memorial Road. Inappropriate in Bricktown, especially for a project that wouldn't have happened without major government backing.


Bass Pro is higher end outdoor store. The unwashed rednecks your bashing are not shopping there. They are going to Academy and Walmart because of the cheaper prices. Just because you shop at Bass Pro does not mean you live in a trailer and drive a 1985 Primer Gray Camaro. 

Your Bass Pro shopper is like a shopper at Dillards or Macy's. He's not there to buy the cheap stuff. He/she is there to drop a few hundred to few thousand on new hunting, fishing or camping gear. Sure Bass Pro has a few country boys in there browsing but, most of them are window shopping and heading down to Academy or Walmart afterward.  If the place had an REI logo on it you would be just fine with it.

----------


## soonerliberal

> Bass Pro is higher end outdoor store. The unwashed rednecks your bashing are not shopping there. They are going to Academy and Walmart because of the cheaper prices. Just because you shop at Bass Pro does not mean you live in a trailer and drive a 1985 Primer Gray Camaro. 
> 
> Your Bass Pro shopper is like a shopper at Dillards or Macy's. He's not there to buy the cheap stuff. He/she is there to drop a few hundred to few thousand on new hunting, fishing or camping gear. Sure Bass Pro has a few country boys in there browsing but, most of them are window shopping and heading down to Academy or Walmart afterward.  If the place had an REI logo on it you would be just fine with it.


Please tell me you are kidding.

Bass Pro doesn't even have a solid selection of North Face!

REI and Dick's have much higher-end products than any of the other competitors.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Spartan, that statement is a little elitist and beneath you.  I'm not defending Bass Pro but that's not cool.


I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.


It sounds like he has some other personal issues with Bass Pro.

----------


## metro

> Please tell me you are kidding.
> 
> Bass Pro doesn't even have a solid selection of North Face!
> 
> REI and Dick's have much higher-end products than any of the other competitors.


 This. Not sure what one forgone was smoking. It's not even a matter of opinion as far as quality is concerned.

----------


## metro

> I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.


This.

----------


## Spartan

Rednecks are a race?

You guys are putting metro in heaven.

----------


## Questor

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable:  nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing. 

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas.  It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types?  Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin?  No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

----------


## MDot

> Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable:  nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing. 
> 
> Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas.  It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types?  Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin?  No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.


The more I read your post, the more I agreed with it. Great post, IMO.

----------


## mcca7596

> Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable:  nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing. 
> 
> Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas.  It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types?  Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin?  No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.


Yep, what is considered a lower/middle class suburb out here (Mesa) has the only one in the Phoenix metro area, and I'm sure half of the valley doesn't even know it's there. The one in OKC is a weekend vacation for people from small town Oklahoma. lol

----------


## mcca7596

So... can someone enlighten me as to why the city didn't throw out $17 million in incentives to a multi-tenant shopping center for Lower Bricktown, even if it wasn't urban in design? Did they think that Bass Pro was the only type of retail attraction that would make good 'ol "Okies" come downtown? Talk about selling yourself short...

----------


## Snowman

> So... can someone enlighten me as to why the city didn't throw out $17 million in incentives to a multi-tenant shopping center for Lower Bricktown, even if it wasn't urban in design? Did they think that Bass Pro was the only type of retail attraction that would make good 'ol "Okies" come downtown? Talk about selling yourself short...


I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable:  nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing. 
> 
> Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas.  It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types?  Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin?  No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.


OK, Let me see if I have this correct.  You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs?  Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC.  It makes no sense.  The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw.  Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday?  Yes the tags are from all over.  That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC.  The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else.  OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown.  A wonderful addition.

----------


## mcca7596

> I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.


Thanks.

----------


## Larry OKC

> Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, *resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro*--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments. 
> 
> *Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal,* did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. ....


Are you sure about that? What I remember recently re-reading was Bass Pro asked for some upgrades (like the "lake" in front "connecting" to the Canal) and according to the City that additional cost was passed on to Bass Pro resulting in slightly higher rent??

They reportedly are paying below market rent though



> The city has agreed to build the 110,000-square-foot store and make other improvements valued at $17.2 million, which would then be leased to Bass Pro Shops at *below market rates*.


While it was taken to court, it was decided that the funding mechanism used to finance it (including MAPS 4 Kids Use Tax) was perfectly legal, that the City could change their "intent" at any time. Something that we have discussed when debating the MAPS 3 ballot/Ordinance language. Accurate/truthful or not, this is what the City Manager had to say about it in the '03-'04 budget:



> ... A good example of this is the Bass Pro project. We estimate the project will bring in approximately $24.6 million in direct revenue and $129.9 million in indirect revenue over a 20-year period.
> There has been a lot of misinformation about Bass Pro. To set the record straight, we are NOT taking, borrowing or spending from the MAPS Sales Tax or any other restricted fund. Dedicated sales tax revenue must be kept in special, separate funds. These funds are audited  internally and externally  every year.
> So how are we paying for the building construction? We are borrowing from three Use Tax reserve funds established by Council resolution: the MAPS Operations, City Schools Use Tax and Public Safety Capital Equipment Use Tax Funds.
> *Borrowing Use Tax is not only legal and above-board, it actually benefits the three funds because the loans will be repaid at above-market interest rates.*


 Hmmm, the lease is below market rates but the loan is being paid back at above market rates????






> ...The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else.  OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown.  A wonderful addition.


I don't get that way often but whenever I have driven by (usually on the weekends), Bass Pro's parking lot has been mostly vacantnot even approaching the typical Wal-mart SuperCenter





> I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.


OKC tried to get a clause that would prohibit them building another one in the state but the best they could get an agreement on was a mile radius restriction. Bass Pro was already thinking about the Tulsa area and made sure that the limit would still allow it to be built. Also, at the time, it was reported that Tulsa/Broken Arrow (where it is located) didn't have to put up near the incentives that OKC did (some reports indicated that NO public incentives were offered.. Much, much later, it was revealed their was a behind-closed doors deal. See here for more info: http://www.batesline.com/archives/20...ro-quid-p.html

----------


## Questor

> OK, Let me see if I have this correct.  You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs?  Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC.  It makes no sense.  The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw.  Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday?  Yes the tags are from all over.  That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC.  The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else.  OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown.  A wonderful addition.


1. It's one of the only free parking lots down there. The fact that the lot is full may or may not actually reflect the state of Bass Pro. Since Bass Pro won't release such figures, we have no way to confirm what you have said and can only speculate. 

2.  I don't doubt that Bass Pro makes money. The point of my argument was that we should have thought bigger and tried to attract much larger entities that would have drawn more people and added more tax dollars to city budgets than what we settled for. Here's a great example:  I work for a company that doesn't even go after million dollar projects anymore because they aren't big enough to worry about. For the same amount of effort wooing, bidding, and perusing we can go after and win contracts worth 10 or more times that. So why waste the effort... It actually is a waste because every hour you spend perusing and securing that 1 mil project loses perhaps another 9. That's sort of my view with Bass Pro.  "it's making money" isn't a high enough standard. Pawn shops make money, yet I have no desire to see one in Bricktown. 

3.  Businesses feed off of each other and like minds try to gravitate towards one another. Rather than just accepting any business tht makes money whatsoever, the city should have considered this collaboration effect and considered wht types of businesses a Bass Pro would cause to cluster around it. The effect is well known and seen every day, even in OKC. There was nothing strategic at all about the decision to go after Bass Pro from this respect. It did cause a hotel and a Toby Keith's to be built in close proximity.

----------


## Larry OKC

*Questor*: While I can certainly see the synergy between Toby Keith's and Bass Pro in theory (the same "redneck" clientele...and I don't use that it a pejorative way, more in the Jeff Foxworthy definition), they are both along the canal and in Lower Bricktown but it isn't like they area next door to each other. Besides, I haven't heard/read of a single business that built on the Canal because of Bass Pro, but it was the Canal itself

That said, I do agree about what you said in #3. What the City should have done is convince a Wal-mart Supercenter to build there if they wanted other retail to flourish. Just look at up at Memorial or just about any other place where they have put one in. Other retail can't build/open stores fast enough just to be near them. Heck, they could have put the Bass Pro inside the Wal-mart and it could have been the sporting goods dept...LOL

----------


## GaryOKC6

> 1. It's one of the only free parking lots down there. The fact that the lot is full may or may not actually reflect the state of Bass Pro. Since Bass Pro won't release such figures, we have no way to confirm what you have said and can only speculate. 
> 
> 2.  I don't doubt that Bass Pro makes money. The point of my argument was that we should have thought bigger and tried to attract much larger entities that would have drawn more people and added more tax dollars to city budgets than what we settled for. Here's a great example:  I work for a company that doesn't even go after million dollar projects anymore because they aren't big enough to worry about. For the same amount of effort wooing, bidding, and perusing we can go after and win contracts worth 10 or more times that. So why waste the effort... It actually is a waste because every hour you spend perusing and securing that 1 mil project loses perhaps another 9. That's sort of my view with Bass Pro.  "it's making money" isn't a high enough standard. Pawn shops make money, yet I have no desire to see one in Bricktown. 
> 
> 3.  Businesses feed off of each other and like minds try to gravitate towards one another. Rather than just accepting any business tht makes money whatsoever, the city should have considered this collaboration effect and considered wht types of businesses a Bass Pro would cause to cluster around it. The effect is well known and seen every day, even in OKC. There was nothing strategic at all about the decision to go after Bass Pro from this respect. It did cause a hotel and a Toby Keith's to be built in close proximity.


1.  Rather than guessing that the parking lot is full of free parkers you may be better served by actually going inside.  I personally shop there and have for 30 years.  I either ordered from the catalog or actually went to the store in Springfield before they came here.  The store is always full when I am there.  They also do a pretty good job of watching who is parking there.  I have seen them tow cars as well.

2.  You Say that the city should have thought bigger.  How?  What do you want ...a mall there?  The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown.  If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here.  We are very interested.  I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years.  Bricktown has entertainment and dining.  We need more retail to round it out.  We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects.  I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.

3.  Bass Pro locating to bricktown was in fact very strategic.  When they decided to come in in 2003 Bricktown was still very young and consisted of a few restaurants and clubs, and a ball park.  It is easy to sit back now and criticize how or why they are there but the fact is that there are and always have been long range visions for bricktown.  Again, I certainly invite you to share your ideas if you have something concrete that you want to share.

----------


## Snowman

> *Questor*: While I can certainly see the synergy between Toby Keith's and Bass Pro in theory (the same "redneck" clientele...and I don't use that it a pejorative way, more in the Jeff Foxworthy definition), they are both along the canal and in Lower Bricktown but it isn't like they area next door to each other. Besides, I haven't heard/read of a single business that built on the Canal because of Bass Pro, but it was the Canal itself
> 
> That said, I do agree about what you said in #3. What the City should have done is convince a Wal-mart Supercenter to build there if they wanted other retail to flourish. Just look at up at Memorial or just about any other place where they have put one in. Other retail can't build/open stores fast enough just to be near them. Heck, they could have put the Bass Pro inside the Wal-mart and it could have been the sporting goods dept...LOL


Walmart hardly lets other retail flourish, they usually kill off small businesses when they move in, most of the flourishing retail areas with a Walmart among them were a destination shopping location or smaller cities main shopping area before the Walmart got there.

----------


## Questor

This thread makes me sad.

----------


## Questor

> 1.  Rather than guessing that the parking lot is full of free parkers you may be better served by actually going inside.  I personally shop there and have for 30 years.  I either ordered from the catalog or actually went to the store in Springfield before they came here.  The store is always full when I am there.  They also do a pretty good job of watching who is parking there.  I have seen them tow cars as well.


Tell me specifically which store you are talking about when you say the Bass Pro store tows cars, OKC or Springfield?  I believe you are talking about the Springfield store because the OKC store does not tow cars from the lot adjacent from it because the lot is owned, just like the building itself that the Bass Pro is located in, by the city and that is part of the agreement.  I am just pointing this out because it misrepresents the original point, that being that the OKC lot is full because everyone is inside shopping at Bass Pro is not necessarily a true statement.

Actually I've been to the OKC, Springfield, and Grapevine (I believe that is where it's at) BP stores.  I wish people wouldn't always assume that simply because someone holds a different opinion on things than you that this must obviously mean they have no first-hand knowledge of whatever subject it is that is being discussed.  That's a very arrogant view to take on things.  Okay, so we both have shopped at a few BPs and live in OKC (or at least I assume you do).  Great, so far we're on the same page.  You responded to tell me I'm wrong.  So instead, here's where we start talking about why we think differently about the same thing.

The first point I was trying to make was that you really can't assume success, or failure, from the standpoint of that store helping out OKC from looking at the parking lot, which was specifically your original point.  Now if what you really meant, but did not actually say in your first point, is that the inside of the store is busy... yeah, I've been in there several times and on one occasion it was completely and utterly dead.  On another it was pretty busy.  I'd have to stand at the entrance for days on end with a clicker to really get a sense of the true story.  I haven't done that.  Have you done that?  I am sure that BP has done that.  Have they published that information?  No, BP is a private entity and they do not release that kind of data.  But let's go ahead and continue down this path.  In what way does the store being busy help out Bricktown?  Is your argument that they are generating people, or generating tax money?  Let's start with the money argument.  So first, let's assume that there are a lot of people going in that store.  Are they browsing around, or are they actually buying?  You can answer with an anecdote and so can I, but neither one of us can answer with facts to know how well that store is really performing because the store is a private entity and it doesn't release that information to the public.  So then all we are doing is spewing BS at one another.  That was sort of what I was trying to convey in my first message, maybe it wasn't clear, so that is why I am writing so much now.  It make no sense to argue this point whatsoever because neither of us knows the facts and cannot.  So then maybe your argument was the second, that BP is generating a lot of people traffic.  From the standpoint of Bricktown that's probably good even if they aren't buying anything.  But it's only good if those people are staying in Bricktown for a while after looking over Bass Pro.  Surely some percent of the people are.  But do we know how many?  Maybe there's a survey out there, but I haven't seen it.

I do know this though, and this ties into my strategic thinking comment:  If OKC were truly thinking strategically, and the only good argument for the store we can come up with above is the people traffic argument, then WHY OH WHY did we locate the thing as far away from the rest of Bricktown as we did?  WHY OH WHY did we make it so gosh darn easy to pull in, park, walk in, shop, leave, and zoom away by car without having to go through the rest of Bricktown?  Is it strategic thinking to build something so suburban in an area that is dependent on urban foot traffic?  Is it strategic thinking to build a "magnet" as far away from the rest of your retail in the area as possible?  Please explain to me the strategic thinking that I am missing here.




> 2.  You Say that the city should have thought bigger.  How?  What do you want ...a mall there?  The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown.  If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here.  We are very interested.  I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years.  Bricktown has entertainment and dining.  We need more retail to round it out.  We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects.  I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.


This is kind of a ridiculous question because the responses are limitless.  Travel through this world.  Look around.  There are so many things that we could have built in Bricktown with public funding that would have offered better strategic direction and possibly better revenues.  Okay, let's start with retail.  Why couldn't we have built a Classen Curve in Bricktown?  If you ask the genius marketers of the world this city couldn't support a CC then and it still can't now.  The only reason we have a CC here is because guys with money, vision, and the tenacity to make it happen made it happen and have proven the marketing firms wrong.  The demand was and is there.  Why couldn't someone have had the vision to make that happen 10 years ago?  Why couldn't it have been Bricktown?  Why couldn't we have used public and private funds to do that?  Don't tell me it couldn't have been successful, CC is its own proof that contrary to marketing data something like that can be successful here, probably even in Bricktown.  Why wouldn't it have been better, and must more intelligent of a business decision from a "diversified portfolio" standpoint, to create a massive mixture of retail, each one with its own up and down cycles, rather than one giant monolithic big box at that site?  Why didn't it make more sense to, in your most urban area of the city, locate something that focuses on WALKING, strolling, MOVING, and so on like the Classen Curve does?  Why on earth would we build a giant box with one entrance at the front whose job is to get you in and out as quickly as possible?  Why would we not see that is exactly what we were doing, all while the same time paying lip service to wanting to do away with all of our one-way streets downtown because we want to keep people in the core longer?  Did anyone stop and think about the big picture like this at all, or was it simply they had to perform, they needed something, and they panicked?  It sure seems like the latter to an outside observer.  You say we have dining... we have like 147 steak shops.  Except for the occasional here and then gone sushi place ethnic dining has had a very tough time surviving in Bricktown.  Remember the Indian place that went out?  Or the Chinese place?  Or the various incarnations of Japanese restaurants?  We don't even have very good coverage of dining let alone other things entirely.  One Italian, one I guess it's Italian, a smattering of Mexican, and a tapas place that seems half dead every time I go in.  That can't be healthy.  Perhaps it is because the clientele in Bricktown likes steak and BBQ?  Now how did that happen?  

How about some more entertainment options?  It's great that we have bowling and movies.  What about art house movies?  What about, I don't know, heck, indoor golf, high-end arcades... why did Dave and Busters have to locate so far from downtown?  Why did we never get the GameWerks we were promised?  I know the backstory, I know why they backed out that is not my question... why did that particular idea of a type of retail die with GameWerks?  Clearly there are other successful businesses in that genre... one of them just located on NW Expressway.  Did we not even try to get them downtown?  If we did, why did we fail?  Was it a density issue?  Perhaps we should think more urban than suburban if that is the case!  

How about an art house movie theater... Alamo Drafthouse is one of the most successful in our region and they don't exactly compete with the traditional theaters.  They are sort of different markets.  

What about cool outdoor, public, structures that by their very nature just attract people?  What about public art by nationally recognized artists?  I'm happy we have what we have from our local artists, but why not go for a bigger draw?  Why don't we have other weird entertainment options... if you go to Hollywood you see a wax museum is right there on the strip full of wacky items that revolve around movie stars.  What is OKC known for?  What can we leverage off of and create a story such as that that folks would want to come here and see?  Why do we have nothing more than a banjo museum here that even comes close to addressing that market?  That's not a knock against that museum, it's a question of why it is the only thing down there like that?  

If this is your business then surely you must have more ideas than me... the answer to this question should be limitless.  It's been done before in every major metropolitan area in this country... I know it has, I like them and have been to them!  Fly to any one of them.  Fly to all of them.  Take notes.  Bring them back.  Let me know how many contain a Bass Pro in their urban core.  Actually I already know the answer to that because I have been to BP's website and reviewed every location myself... None!  This city's worst problem is that it thinks like a small town.  Even when it is trying not to, if we lose focus that is exactly where we end up back at.  BP is a suburban retailer.  It's clear as day.  The reasons you don't want that in an area that you want to become your most walkable urban area are clear as day.




> 3.  Bass Pro locating to bricktown was in fact very strategic.  When they decided to come in in 2003 Bricktown was still very young and consisted of a few restaurants and clubs, and a ball park.  It is easy to sit back now and criticize how or why they are there but the fact is that there are and always have been long range visions for bricktown.  Again, I certainly invite you to share your ideas if you have something concrete that you want to share.


I've gotten wordy, so you may have gotten bored with me and not seen it, but at the beginning of this post I had a lot to say about this point.  Basically, explain to me what the strategy was then?  If the strategy was to get people down there and that BP would do that, then please tell me how it makes sense to locate BP as far away from the rest of Bricktown (at the time)?  How it makes sense to build a suburban big box with parking directly in front of it and easy access to come and go without ever having to set foot in Bricktown?  How it makes sense to build one giant big box as opposed to multiple items and generate density and people walking around back and forth between them?  What was the strategy?  Surely that wasn't it because it makes no sense whatsoever from that standpoint.  So what am I missing, what was the strategy???

----------


## ljbab728

I guess I"d like to know what the strategy is to start talking about I240 revitalization again.

----------


## Questor

Honestly the answer is the exact opposite of my Bricktown rant above.  240 is suburban... so all the 'mistakes' of Bricktown... bring them to 240.  That is where they are best suited.

What would be hysterical would be if we tried to build a big mixed use walkable outdoor retail center along 240.  I only mention it because it occurs to me that seems like something we would do.

----------


## Spartan

> OK, Let me see if I have this correct.  You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs?  Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC.  *It makes no sense.  The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw.  Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday?*  Yes the tags are from all over.  That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC.  The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else.  OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown.  A wonderful addition.


It sounds to me like you would think a Wal-Mart Supercenter is a tourist draw and should also be in Bricktown.

I always park in their lot whenever I go to Thunder games, and no, they don't tow. There is no way for them to tow. Plus, that lot is part of the Lower Bricktown parking ecosystem, which means that technically all you have to do is patronize a LB business and then you're entitled to park there. There are 10-20 such businesses and there is no way for them to enforce that at the huge lots, although I have seen them enforce parking covenants at the smaller lots such as next to the Centennial. If they wanted to enforce the parking covenants for the huge lots like the Bass Pro one (which would draw huge flack from City Hall if Bass Pro became a parking racket), it would take hours to go through the line to get out as they check for LB receipts at the exits onto Reno. Talk about a nightmare strategy.

The Thunder are a huge tourist draw and belong downtown, not Bass Pro. And I see we have attracted one of the very few people who still think that Bass Pro was a good deal, which is further proof that on the Internet anyone can say anything and doesn't have to know what they're talking about in order to demand to be taken seriously.

----------


## Larry OKC

> Walmart hardly lets other retail flourish, they usually kill off small businesses when they move in, most of the flourishing retail areas with a Walmart among them were a destination shopping location or smaller cities main shopping area before the Walmart got there.


Look at Memorial Road & Penn and all the retail that sprang up after the WalMart Super center moved in...yeah there was some along there with Quail Springs mall but once the Wal-mart went in it just exploded...even caused Target to build a Supercenter

Course the danger is that Walmart likes to move around...ove rin Norman they were on one side of I-35 on main street, then moved across the highway on the other side of Sooner Fashion Mall, then back on the other side of I-35 on the frontage road.

They did similar things here in the City. Had a store at Rockwell & NW Expressway (current Hobby Lobby), moved it to just east of MacArthur (currently a GattiTown) and then split that one up into 2 Supercenters on opposite ends of NW Expressway. Sometimes it makes a huge difference where it is at because that small move they made may have changed what city they were located in. If you are a Bethany or Warr Acres, you may be taking a huge hit to your sales tax base, where OKC can take that in stride more readily.

----------


## Larry OKC

> 2.  You Say that the city should have thought bigger.  How?  What do you want ...a mall there?  The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown.  If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here.  We are very interested.  I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years.  Bricktown has entertainment and dining.  We need more retail to round it out.  We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects.  *I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.*


Doesn't that beg the question, are the convention group visitors shopping at Bass Pro with the intent purpose of doing so or because that is one of the view retail options within the convention center area?  Or is it just a happy coincidence, they are shopping there only because it is there? That is why I thought the perfect place for the Outlet Mall would have been in lower Bricktown or even as a southern anchor of Core to Shore...a variety of retail all in one location. As successful as the Outlet Mall has been, why did OKC offer incentives for them to build near the burbs?

Or to get back to the subject of the thread, why not offer incentives for the outlet mall developers to take over Crossroads Mall...the most needful area of I-240 that needs retail revitalization??

----------


## GaryOKC6

> It sounds to me like you would think a Wal-Mart Supercenter is a tourist draw and should also be in Bricktown.
> 
> I always park in their lot whenever I go to Thunder games, and no, they don't tow. There is no way for them to tow. Plus, that lot is part of the Lower Bricktown parking ecosystem, which means that technically all you have to do is patronize a LB business and then you're entitled to park there. There are 10-20 such businesses and there is no way for them to enforce that at the huge lots, although I have seen them enforce parking covenants at the smaller lots such as next to the Centennial. If they wanted to enforce the parking covenants for the huge lots like the Bass Pro one (which would draw huge flack from City Hall if Bass Pro became a parking racket), it would take hours to go through the line to get out as they check for LB receipts at the exits onto Reno. Talk about a nightmare strategy.
> 
> The Thunder are a huge tourist draw and belong downtown, not Bass Pro. And I see we have attracted one of the very few people who still think that Bass Pro was a good deal, which is further proof that on the Internet anyone can say anything and doesn't have to know what they're talking about in order to demand to be taken seriously.


You could not be farther from being wrong and I never mentioned walmart. You created that.  You have an obvious problem with MAPS, Bricktown and I am sure that the rest will come out.  I have my facts.  You on the other hand are the okc enthuiast who is NEVER enthusiatic.

----------


## Spartan

Yeah, I have an obvious problem with MAPS and Bricktown because I'm still fuming about the Bass Pro deal....DaRN THoSE REDNecKS IN TheiR LOfTz aND CoOL BuILDInGS!!

----------


## jn1780

> Doesn't that beg the question, are the convention group visitors shopping at Bass Pro with the intent purpose of doing so or because that is one of the view retail options within the convention center area?  *Or is it just a happy coincidence*, they are shopping there only because it is there? That is why I thought the perfect place for the Outlet Mall would have been in lower Bricktown or even as a southern anchor of Core to Shore...a variety of retail all in one location. As successful as the Outlet Mall has been, why did OKC offer incentives for them to build near the burbs?
> 
> Or to get back to the subject of the thread, why not offer incentives for the outlet mall developers to take over Crossroads Mall...the most needful area of I-240 that needs retail revitalization??


I believe that is the case nowadays and BP depends on BT bringing them business rather than it being the other way around. Maybe when Bricktown didn't have as many draws and Bass Pro didn't build stores all over the place and lower their uniqueness did they actually draw in more people than other attractions in Bricktown. 

I have never seen a car get towed from the Bass Pro parking lot. They don't really put any effort at preventing people parking there.

----------


## Lindsay Architect

Just a thought...if one could turn back time and Bass Pro (very SUB-urban?) located to an established suburban area like crossroads, and something as popular as The Warren followed, how would the area look today?  It seems like a better place for Bass Pro or Cabelas or something, if you had those as 'anchors' and could remove all of the run-down strip malls facing I-35 traffic, the mall would be visable again and something would survive.  The area will never compete with the Penn Square area for the same type of retail, but would be a great Redneck Mecca, maybe J.R.'s could resurface in the food court...  Moore has re-sprawled with horribly unplanned developments stacked on top of each other - that you can barely get to without waiting on 5 stop lights once you exit the poorly planned off-ramps, 240 should have _moore_ potetial than Moore.

----------


## Lindsay Architect

Questor..... didn't mean to repeat your thought on Bass Pro, I just now went back and more clearly read your post.

----------


## Snowman

> Just a thought...if one could turn back time and Bass Pro (very SUB-urban?) located to an established suburban area like crossroads, and something as popular as The Warren followed, how would the area look today?  It seems like a better place for Bass Pro or Cabelas or something, if you had those as 'anchors' and could remove all of the run-down strip malls facing I-35 traffic, the mall would be visable again and something would survive.  The area will never compete with the Penn Square area for the same type of retail, but would be a great Redneck Mecca, maybe J.R.'s could resurface in the food court...  Moore has re-sprawled with horribly unplanned developments stacked on top of each other - that you can barely get to without waiting on 5 stop lights once you exit the poorly planned off-ramps, 240 should have _moore_ potetial than Moore.


It likely would have taken more money to get Bass Pro to go in near Crossroads, while I don't think what we game them was worth it, what we gave them was still about 10 million less than the average incentive package they have gotten over the last ten years to build a store. It being downtown was probably why it got as much money from the city as it did, near Quail Springs Mall would probably be the only other place I would would expect them to prefer and have space to build easily.

----------


## rcjunkie

> It likely would have taken more money to get Bass Pro to go in near Crossroads, while I don't think what we game them was worth it, what we gave them was still about 10 million less than the average incentive package they have gotten over the last ten years to build a store. It being downtown was probably why it got as much money from the city as it did, near Quail Springs Mall would probably be the only other place I would would expect them to prefer and have space to build easily.


During negotiations with Bass Pro, they were given a list of 5 locations. They were intent on building in Bricktown, they wouldn't even consider the other 4 locations.

----------


## jn1780

> Just a thought...if one could turn back time and Bass Pro (very SUB-urban?) located to an established suburban area like crossroads, and something as popular as The Warren followed, how would the area look today?  It seems like a better place for Bass Pro or Cabelas or something, if you had those as 'anchors' and could remove all of the run-down strip malls facing I-35 traffic, the mall would be visable again and something would survive.  The area will never compete with the Penn Square area for the same type of retail, but would be a great Redneck Mecca, maybe J.R.'s could resurface in the food court...  Moore has re-sprawled with horribly unplanned developments stacked on top of each other - that you can barely get to without waiting on 5 stop lights once you exit the poorly planned off-ramps, 240 should have _moore_ potetial than Moore.


I don't really see what makes I-240 that much different than I-35 other than having less traffic because the area is dead compared to 19th St. If the sprawl actually developed along I-240 it would be just as bad I-35.  

The problem is that it is difficult to equally distribute the wealth across a city based on suburban sprawl. There are two types of wealthy people. Those who like to build a new house way out Suburbs on untouched land and those who like to buy places deep in the urban core. Neither wants to move into the middle layer of that suburban sprawl.  The large retailers simply follow the money, bad planning or not. 

I can almost guarantee you that the "locusts" will spread somewhere along I-44 between 89th and 149th streets leaving I-240 double screwed. Just watch and see. I give it less than 5 years. Well, their already planning on developing the airport area. Not sure what kind of businesses their hoping to attract there.

----------


## Larry OKC

> During negotiations with Bass Pro, they were given a list of 5 locations. They were intent on building in Bricktown, they wouldn't even consider the other 4 locations.


What were the other 4 locations?

----------


## ljbab728

An update:

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-citys-int...rticle/3665876

----------


## proud2Bsooner

This thread...oh this thread!

The main problem with I240 is the apartments. If they could raze the ones between Western and Penn (south side of 240), and all the garbage at May (north and south sides), the area would stand a chance. All of these apartments have high levels of violent crime. The first set I mentioned are owned by a Pakistani dude from Cali that bought them up during the real estate bubble because he thought they were so cheap, by Cali standards. He has no interest in the area, and it would take someone with big dough and an even bigger vision to do something about these eyesores.

I'm not sure why Hump is on this committee. I guess he gives the committee name recognition. He's more well-known for attaching himself to the City teet, than coming up with solutions that don't necessarily benefit him. Gosh, I hope I haven't started another thread tangent! The subject is I240, and I have have my doubts about the insight this committee (or whatever they call it) could provide.

----------


## Snowman

> This thread...oh this thread!
> 
> The main problem with I240 is the apartments. If they could raze the ones between Western and Penn (south side of 240), and all the garbage at May (north and south sides), the area would stand a chance. All of these apartments have high levels of violent crime. The first set I mentioned are owned by a Pakistani dude from Cali that bought them up during the real estate bubble because he thought they were so cheap, by Cali standards. He has no interest in the area, and it would take someone with big dough and an even bigger vision to do something about these eyesores.
> 
> I'm not sure why Hump is on this committee. I guess he gives the committee name recognition. He's more well-known for attaching himself to the City teet, than coming up with solutions that don't necessarily benefit him. Gosh, I hope I haven't started another thread tangent! The subject is I240, and I have have my doubts about the insight this committee (or whatever they call it) could provide.


Razing the apartments would just shifts the problem elsewhere in the city.

----------


## oneforone

> Razing the apartments would just shifts the problem elsewhere in the city.


Yeah, the last thing we want is Southside to prosper. Every city has to have a ghetto it might as well be South OKC. 

Save the good developments for places like Bricktown, Penn Square and Memorial where they whitewash over things like gang shootings, robbery, kidnapping and sexual assault that all happen in public in broad daylight.

----------


## Tavia

They could start by mowing on each side of I-240.  It has never been maintained well...always looks awful.

----------


## mmonroe

I use to work at 104th and Western but lived in MWC, every day, without fail, on my way home, there was always a wreck on 240 just before the I35 interchange.  That stretch of highway is dangerous.  

Disclaimer: I don't know what my post has to do with this thread, just adding it in.

----------


## kevinpate

I can't speak on all the apartments and townhomes along that stretch of 240, but when I worked in south OKC a while back, one of our new hires lived in a place along there.  It looked nicer than the others from the highway and frontage road, and even up close from the outside.  However, it was truly a terrible place, structurally and mechanically.  He hated it, but he stayed because he felt the rent was cheap (wasn't for what what he endured in my opinion) and having cheap to him rent made it easier to cover the nut on the way too much car for his pay grade that he drove.

----------


## SoonerBoy18

I drove on I 240 numerous times and the road surface was very smooth, and there are lots of buisness along the highway, can somebody explain exactly WHY odot wants to waste money on this project instead repairing portions of i-44 by Penn Square mall. Its much busier than I-240 and the roads are in serious need of repair. That part of OKC needs the revitalization because it just looks too ghetto, in my opinion.

----------


## Snowman

> I drove on I 240 numerous times and the road surface was very smooth, and there are lots of buisness along the highway, can somebody explain exactly WHY odot wants to waste money on this project instead repairing portions of i-44 by Penn Square mall. Its much busier than I-240 and the roads are in serious need of repair. That part of OKC needs the revitalization because it just looks too ghetto, in my opinion.


Your perceptions of i44 near Penn being busier than i240 do not seem to be supported by ODOT's statistics. It would not surprise me that i44 would feel busier due to the way it merges with Lake Hefner Parkway, left side exits near Penn and i235 cloverleafs made it prone to slowing down even before construction on i44/i235 juncture was underway.

----------


## Just the facts

> Just a thought...if one could turn back time and Bass Pro (very SUB-urban?) located to an established suburban area like crossroads, and something as popular as The Warren followed, how would the area look today?  It seems like a better place for Bass Pro or Cabelas or something, if you had those as 'anchors' and could remove all of the run-down strip malls facing I-35 traffic, the mall would be visable again and something would survive.  The area will never compete with the Penn Square area for the same type of retail, but would be a great Redneck Mecca, maybe J.R.'s could resurface in the food court...  Moore has re-sprawled with horribly unplanned developments stacked on top of each other - that you can barely get to without waiting on 5 stop lights once you exit the poorly planned off-ramps, 240 should have _moore_ potetial than Moore.


Bass Pro is an anchor tenant at the Discover Mills Mall in Lawrenceville, GA (suburba of Atlanta).  It is a former outlet mall turned entertainment complex.

----------


## ljbab728

> Your perceptions of i44 near Penn being busier than i240 do not seem to be supported by ODOT's statistics. It would not surprise me that i44 would feel busier due to the way it merges with Lake Hefner Parkway, left side exits near Penn and i235 cloverleafs made it prone to slowing down even before construction on i44/i235 juncture was underway.


And there is also the matter that ODOT is not invoved in this project so SoonerBoy can rest a little easier since it doesn't involve the roadway at all.

----------


## Questor

I was driving in this area earlier this week and I noticed something I had been meaning to comment on... an old car dealership with its signage removed at I-240 and I-35 (just east of).  There were tons of either OHP or OCPD cruisers and trucks parked in the lot, so it appeared to be some sort of government storage.  The place didn't look so great, and in the past it has looked absolutely awful, overgrown with weeds.  Who is utilizing this space?

----------


## Questor

> Your perceptions of i44 near Penn being busier than i240 do not seem to be supported by ODOT's statistics. It would not surprise me that i44 would feel busier due to the way it merges with Lake Hefner Parkway, left side exits near Penn and i235 cloverleafs made it prone to slowing down even before construction on i44/i235 juncture was underway.


That map is really interesting.  It looks like the busiest highways in the city are I-40 and everything south of it.  It's kind of amazing that so much focus is placed on everything north of 40.

----------


## Larry OKC

> I was driving in this area earlier this week and I noticed something I had been meaning to comment on... an old car dealership with its signage removed at I-240 and I-35 (just east of).  There were tons of either OHP or OCPD cruisers and trucks parked in the lot, so it appeared to be some sort of government storage.  The place didn't look so great, and in the past it has looked absolutely awful, overgrown with weeds.  Who is utilizing this space?


If it is the one I am thinking of, it was a relatively new dealership that moved again "around the corner" on I-35 (Southwest Ford that used to be located off 59th & Penn...where the Wal-Mart Market is now?)???

----------


## jn1780

> I was driving in this area earlier this week and I noticed something I had been meaning to comment on... an old car dealership with its signage removed at I-240 and I-35 (just east of).  There were tons of either OHP or OCPD cruisers and trucks parked in the lot, so it appeared to be some sort of government storage.  The place didn't look so great, and in the past it has looked absolutely awful, overgrown with weeds.  Who is utilizing this space?


Im guessing thats exactly what it is: State of Oklahoma storage. Or maybe somewhere OHP officers can take naps? LOL The state bought the right of way for the interchange back when they thought it would be under construction by now. The new dealership is on 89th and I-35, I think? Somewhere in that area anyway.

They also bulldozed the apartments and homes on the otherside of I-240. So they bulldozed peoples homes, but left the car dealership because of a  project delayed over 10 years. Go figure.

----------


## cas

Can we get somebody to mow along I-240?  I don't understand why this highway rarely seems to get mowed?

----------


## Questor

Larry and jn1780, I think you're right, it's a dealership that moved down the way and it looks like huge numbers of state vehicles parked there now.  I just happened to notice it because it seems like maybe they need to mow and weed eat the place more often.

----------


## oneforone

It was Bob Moore Ford until they moved to 89th and I-35. The state bought it because a flyover ramp or on ramp for I-35 South is going to go right through there when they re-build the interchange. The project is not slated to begin until 2018. In the meantime they are acquiring land and relocating utilities. 

OHP is using it as a facility to put new cars in service and take old ones out of service. They usually do this at a ODOT yard located just NE of the FT Smith Junction. The dealership was being vandalized pretty frequently until they started parking OHP cars over there. OHP likely moved this operation over to the old dealership because of the space at the old dealership.

----------


## bombermwc

I had asked about the Ford dealership months ago. They're using it for a staging/storage area until it's demolished for the new interchange.

They are also mowing the 240 area as we speak.

----------


## Chop

I do wish the I-240 area would get a good cleaning up starting with bulldozing Crossroads mall & all the apartments west all the way to May Ave.

----------


## ljbab728

An update.

Oklahoma City to study interest in unified Interstate 240 redevelopment plan | NewsOK.com

----------


## bombermwc

Step 1 - repave the whole length of the service road!!!!!!!!!

----------


## ljbab728

An update on this effort.

Promoters of Oklahoma City's I-240 area look to Fort Worth, Texas, for an example | News OK

----------


## bchris02

> An update on this effort.
> 
> Promoters of Oklahoma City's I-240 area look to Fort Worth, Texas, for an example | News OK


It's good to see some pro-activeness considering the I-240 corridor.  It has declined but its not so far gone it can't be easily revitalized.  I think getting rid of the run-down, outdated apartment complexes along I-240 will go a long ways.  It would be cool if it could become something similar to how Memorial Rd/Kilpatrick Turnpike is on the north side.  That corridor is adjacent to the fast growing SW OKC (West Moore) area so there is a lot of potential.  The problem is directly north of I-240 are some of the worst neighborhoods in OKC.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

So, what I'm curious about, and I've emailed them several times regarding this question and each time they respond, my question is never directly answered. What is the scale of this "project"? I'll try and come up with a rendering soon of what I think it should be (and don't hate if I overkill this), but are we talking completely reconstructing this highway and it's service roads? 

It would be better if they lowered the highway slightly below grade and obviously reconstruct it in cement and widen it to 8 lanes(this wouldn't be too important, they could just keep it six lanes, but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead) and widen the service roads to 3 lanes in each direction. Add nice landscaping and internally illuminated signs and if they really wanted to plan ahead, put in HOV lanes. I know this would be very costly and right now, OKC has higher priorities, but I just hope they don't halfass this if they are considering a complete rebuild of the highway. . . IF

The highway seems to be in good shape, it's just freakin ugly and very narrow shoulders. The service roads are in horrible condition (arguably some of the worst in the country) and very small merging time (although better than some highways around here). Well, whatever happens, I hope they are innovative and don't halfass anything.

----------


## catch22

8 highway lanes and 6 service lanes?

I hope not. 14 lanes is not the answer....

----------


## catch22

And I think this is more about the corridor than the road itself. Beautification projects, landscaping, encouraging better developments, etc.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> 8 highway lanes and 6 service lanes?
> 
> I hope not. 14 lanes is not the answer....


Well, traffic would flow more smoothly, but however you want it done, you can spend a ton of money rebuilding it 6 highway lanes  and 2 service lanes. When I said 6 service, I probably should've specified what's already there. So, really you would only have 2 service lanes through and at the intersection, 2 left turn lanes, texas u turn, dedicated right lane, new 8 ft. sidewalks, 10ft. crosswalk sections, 2 through lanes, so not 6 service lanes, I over stated that.

Regarding the highway, 8 lanes wouldn't hurt to plan ahead, but I don't see them doing that. Really, the traffic flows real smooth on this stretch of highway and I just think it doesn't hurt to plan ahead. You're right about 14 lanes, I don't ever see this highway needing that in the long-term future. Also, incorporating wider sidewalks to allow for biking as bike lanes obviously wouldn't work. But, I would like to see the city do this on all the new streets it builds. Do I think this will happen, no.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Beautification projects, landscaping, encouraging better developments, etc.


Yes and I think this would be great. I also think, as been mentioned above, the service roads need to be repaved. I this highway has quite a bit more life in it before it needs to be rebuilt. Like I said, I think OKC has much higher priories than spending a couple hundred mill. on this right now. lol  :Smile:

----------


## ljbab728

> The problem is directly north of I-240 are some of the worst neighborhoods in OKC.


And directly south of Memorial and the turnpike are some the worst neighborhoods/apartments in OKC.  Your comparison doesn't wash.  Many people are not particularly enamored of some of the developments along the Kilpatrick.

----------


## RadicalModerate

> And directly south of Memorial and the turnpike are some the worst neighborhoods/apartments in OKC.  Your comparison doesn't wash.  Many people are not particular enamored of some of the developments along the Kilpatrick.


Very true . . . very true . . .
But this is about I-240 . . .  how about . . . A New Home For Stage Center!!! (no?)

----------


## ljbab728

> Very true . . . very true . . .
> But this is about I-240 . . .  how about . . . A New Home For Stage Center!!! (no?)


Lovely idea, but no.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

lol

----------


## bchris02

> And directly south of Memorial and the turnpike are some the worst neighborhoods/apartments in OKC.  Your comparison doesn't wash.  Many people are not particularly enamored of some of the developments along the Kilpatrick.


122nd and Penn is a blight on what otherwise is a great area.  Outside of those apartments, that part of town is pretty good.  It's my opinion they should just bulldoze them and eradicate the problem before it spreads to the surrounding neighborhoods.

Question for you.  What don't you like about the development along Kilpatrick?

----------


## ljbab728

> 122nd and Penn is a blight on what otherwise is a great area.  Outside of those apartments, that part of town is pretty good.  It's my opinion they should just bulldoze them and eradicate the problem before it spreads to the surrounding neighborhoods.
> 
> Question for you.  What don't you like about the development along Kilpatrick?



You are obviously not that familiar with the area.  You might want to try looking around the area along Britton Road and near Western. The apartments along I240 and other areas to the north have nothing on that area.   Some of the development along the Kilpatrick is nice surburban development and some of it is typical throwaway development which you can find anywhere.  I think many are hoping for something better and more urban along the I240 corridor.

----------


## Easy180

> It's good to see some pro-activeness considering the I-240 corridor.  It has declined but its not so far gone it can't be easily revitalized.  I think getting rid of the run-down, outdated apartment complexes along I-240 will go a long ways.  It would be cool if it could become something similar to how Memorial Rd/Kilpatrick Turnpike is on the north side.  That corridor is adjacent to the fast growing SW OKC (West Moore) area so there is a lot of potential.  The problem is directly north of I-240 are some of the worst neighborhoods in OKC.


74th to 59th is still somewhat hanging in there which could be bolstered by a revitalization of 240

----------


## bombermwc

I'll have to diagree with bchris on the neighborhood statements. The area north of 240 is NOT the worst in OKC. I can rattle off a large number of areas that are far worse, and if you drive around, you'll see how wrong you are. It does, however, get more rough once you get up to 44th. But the same can be true of any area....a few miles in any direction is a big difference. A few miles from Gallardia gets you 122nd and Penn.....some of the worst statistical gang-land in OKC.

----------


## SoonerDave

> The problem is directly north of I-240 are some of the worst neighborhoods in OKC.


I think this paints _waaaay_ too broad a brush for I-240. Incorrectly conveys this notion that the entire stretch is some sort of desperate, crime-ridden area, which simply isn't true. I drive that corridor _every day._

Are there some less than four-star apartment complexes in that area? Absolutely. I would say that the worst of them are "clotted" in a strangely gnarled street arrangement that starts where SW 74th and the I-240 service road splits west of Penn, and then goes west to May. In that area, too, is a nasty old motel that gets mentioned in the news way too often. And the north side of I-240 in that same area around May hosts an empty former Albertson's location, in front of which there's a sign indicating a desire to subdivide/rework a la Palagio on SW 104th and Penn, and there's an apartment complex immediately north of there that is maybe marginally better than the one along SW 74th. 

But tracing the area immediately north of I-240 between May and Penn reveals the Walnut Creek golf course and country club, including the pending construction of a new clubhouse, and then a decent but not thriving shopping center that includes Hobby Lobby, Big Lots, Conn's, and Olive Garden. I think Hobby Lobby has done a lot to perk up that center, actually. On the south side of I-240 east of Penn is the old Southern Hills Shopping Center that is approaching full occupancy, with a Starbucks in an outparcel, an electronics resale place (CDR), a fabric store, a PetsMart, and a Mazzios, with one of the other outparcels being remodeled and given an exterior facelift. 

Keep going east, and you'll find decent retail names like McDonald's, Office Depot, Staples, and Lowe's in fairly short order. Is it perfect? Of course not, hence the ideas being circulated to revitalize it. But to cast this notion that its "some of the worst in OKC" is simply unfair and inaccurate. South OKC has to work hard enough to overcome the predispositions many hold for it without perpetuating inaccuracies like this.

----------


## Zuplar

> I think this paints _waaaay_ too broad a brush for I-240. Incorrectly conveys this notion that the entire stretch is some sort of desperate, crime-ridden area, which simply isn't true. I drive that corridor _every day._
> 
> Are there some less than four-star apartment complexes in that area? Absolutely. I would say that the worst of them are "clotted" in a strangely gnarled street arrangement that starts where SW 74th and the I-240 service road splits west of Penn, and then goes west to May. In that area, too, is a nasty old motel that gets mentioned in the news way too often. And the north side of I-240 in that same area around May hosts an empty former Albertson's location, in front of which there's a sign indicating a desire to subdivide/rework a la Palagio on SW 104th and Penn, and there's an apartment complex immediately north of there that is maybe marginally better than the one along SW 74th. 
> 
> But tracing the area immediately north of I-240 between May and Penn reveals the Walnut Creek golf course and country club, including the pending construction of a new clubhouse, and then a decent but not thriving shopping center that includes Hobby Lobby, Big Lots, Conn's, and Olive Garden. I think Hobby Lobby has done a lot to perk up that center, actually. On the south side of I-240 east of Penn is the old Southern Hills Shopping Center that is approaching full occupancy, with a Starbucks in an outparcel, an electronics resale place (CDR), a fabric store, a PetsMart, and a Mazzios, with one of the other outparcels being remodeled and given an exterior facelift. 
> 
> Keep going east, and you'll find decent retail names like McDonald's, Office Depot, Staples, and Lowe's in fairly short order. Is it perfect? Of course not, hence the ideas being circulated to revitalize it. But to cast this notion that its "some of the worst in OKC" is simply unfair and inaccurate. South OKC has to work hard enough to overcome the predispositions many hold for it without perpetuating inaccuracies like this.


I agree 100%. Southwest OKC is becoming to developed with nice new homes, and letting this area go would just continue to drive these shoppers elsewhere.

----------


## adaniel

OKC is the type of place where you can't make sweeping generalizations about an entire side of town. There are some very nice areas north of 240. 

SoonerDave, did you you mean Willow Creek? I agree with you though that is a very nice neighborhood. I actually got lost one day and found that place. I would live there in a heartbeat, although I'm a sucker for mid-century architecture. In fact, I would say the vast majority of the area south of 44th is tidy working to middle class neighborhoods. Sure there's plenty of decaying commercial strips and ratty apartment complexes, but that's how OKC rolls unfortunately. 

Heck, even my parents old stomping grounds of Wildewood in the terrible, crime filled northeast side is actually made up of very nice, owner occupied homes and large, oak filled lots.

In any event, I'm glad to see that 240 is getting its act together. Just cleaning up some of the apartments would do wonders for that corridor.

----------


## bombermwc

Repave the frontage roads though, PLEASE!

----------


## SoonerDave

> OKC is the type of place where you can't make sweeping generalizations about an entire side of town. There are some very nice areas north of 240. 
> 
> *SoonerDave, did you you mean Willow Creek?* I agree with you though that is a very nice neighborhood. I actually got lost one day and found that place. I would live there in a heartbeat, although I'm a sucker for mid-century architecture. In fact, I would say the vast majority of the area south of 44th is tidy working to middle class neighborhoods. Sure there's plenty of decaying commercial strips and ratty apartment complexes, but that's how OKC rolls unfortunately. 
> 
> Heck, even my parents old stomping grounds of Wildewood in the terrible, crime filled northeast side is actually made up of very nice, owner occupied homes and large, oak filled lots.
> 
> In any event, I'm glad to see that 240 is getting its act together. Just cleaning up some of the apartments would do wonders for that corridor.


Yes, but many years ago it was "Walnut Creek" and the name stuck in my head. 

I really think part of the "revitalization" of that area is going to have to take the routing of SW 74th at May Avenue into consideration. That is part of what has created that "island" of nasty hotels/gas station/really bad apts. Not quite sure how you fix that part of it, but I think it needs to be a big part of the update. If that nasty motel, the chronically defunct former Sinclair gas station in that "island," and even that first block of apts to the east could magically go away it sure would be a bonus, but I don't know how that can happen. I wonder what kind of occupancy rate those apts immediately east of Motel Nasty (Cambridge Inn, I think, or at least it was at one point??) are experiencing? 

And, yes, bombermwc, they need to repave the frontage roads!  :Smile:

----------


## ljbab728

An update from the Mayor's Development Roundtable:

Oklahoma City planners see future retail tied to neighborhoods | News OK

----------


## MWCGuy

I think 240's ramps need to be reworked. 

May full service
Penn Enter Only East/West Bound (Too Many Close calls from both off ramps)
Western full service
Close Walker (Too Many close calls especially on the on/off in front of David Stanley)
Santa Fe Full Service
Close Shields (The ramps are too dangerous from all directions)

Repave/widen the service roads running each direction between Shields and May. Post new signage showing how to access the streets like the new stretch of I-40.

----------


## catch22

They need to put the off ramps one street away from the actual arterial. For example, going west on I-240 you'd get off just after Western Ave. to get off on Penn. This would put traffic on the service road sooner and keep away last second lane changes to access the strip malls from being dangerous. The on ramps would be one mile down. To get on westbound from Western the actual on ramp would be right before the Penn bridge.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> They need to put the off ramps one street away from the actual arterial. For example, going west on I-240 you'd get off just after Western Ave. to get off on Penn. This would put traffic on the service road sooner and keep away last second lane changes to access the strip malls from being dangerous. The on ramps would be one mile down. To get on westbound from Western the actual on ramp would be right before the Penn bridge.


That would do wonders, but wouldn't they have to make the highway below grade for this to work efficiently, none the less, I'd still be for it and actually prefer this particular stretch to be below grade.

----------


## catch22

> That would do wonders, but wouldn't they have to make the highway below grade for this to work efficiently, none the less, I'd still be for it and actually prefer this particular stretch to be below grade.


No? You're just moving the ramps. Instead of the on ramp being right after the intersection, it would be a street down right before the next intersection. Off ramps, instead of dumping traffic right into the intersections, would dump traffic just after the intersection.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> No? You're just moving the ramps. Instead of the on ramp being right after the intersection, it would be a street down right before the next intersection. Off ramps, instead of dumping traffic right into the intersections, would dump traffic just after the intersection.


Ah, I see ok. Makes sense now.  :Smile:

----------


## catch22

> Ah, I see ok. Makes sense now.


Here's an example of what I mean, these are common in Austin.



And then closer up view of that mile:




I doubt they even have considered using these in Oklahoma, to me they make sense.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Yes, the North Dallas Tollway is like that. It is an excellent highway and a good example of what a great highway system is. The highway is 6 lanes and has a six lane service road (one way 3 lanes each direction) and I know you didn't like that idea, but the ramps flow right onto the service roads and there is an exit every other road(sometimes the same) and same for entry. It is very nice. Hopefully they will build a nice interchange for the I-35/240 junction as well.

----------


## Spartan

Er.... I think that Envision 240 is more of a land use planning process than a road rehabilitation project. If you have road surface-related concerns, you should take that up with ODOT.

This process isn't so much concerned with repaving the feeder roads so that it is a nicer, smoother 50 mph ride for you NOW, as it is with making sure that this area is competitive enough to weather changes in lifestyle and economic trends. This is looking much further into the future and looking much more broadly at ways to redevelop land.

----------


## catch22

> Er.... I think that Envision 240 is more of a land use planning process than a road rehabilitation project. If you have road surface-related concerns, you should take that up with ODOT.
> 
> This process isn't so much concerned with repaving the feeder roads so that it is a nicer, smoother 50 mph ride for you NOW, as it is with making sure that this area is competitive enough to weather changes in lifestyle and economic trends. This is looking much further into the future and looking much more broadly at ways to redevelop land.


Yes I agree with this, the only thing I have seen mentioned regarding the actual transit infrastructure from the leaders of this project have been beautification efforts along the 240 corridor.

----------


## Spartan

> Yes I agree with this, the only thing I have seen mentioned regarding the actual transit infrastructure from the leaders of this project have been beautification efforts along the 240 corridor.


Which also aren't going to make it easier for you (generally speaking) to blaze past strip malls at 50 mph. So if that's "the life" in a decade or so you'll need to go to Moore. 

I am beginning to believe Envision 240 may actually be the kind of progressive vision to reposition this important corridor to sustain success for decades to come and ward off the urban blight process that is beginning to circle around.

Let's talk about that, the real issues.

----------


## catch22

My main concern with the highway through the corridor is the fact that it is dangerous, with the previous level of planning that went into it.

People get off the highway, slam on their brakes and try to dart across to the far lane, to make the nearest entry to the strip mall, instead of slowing down gradually and merging into the lane and taking the second entrance to the strip mall....

I'd be all for reducing highway access to that corridor to every other arterial, and making better use of city streets to move traffic around.

Since I know you are in this field and I do want your opinion about what could be done for this area?

I am having a difficult time envisioning exactly what can be done. Are we talking about urbanizing suburbia?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> *Er.... I think that Envision 240 is more of a land use planning process than a road rehabilitation project*. If you have road surface-related concerns, you should take that up with ODOT.
> 
> This process isn't so much concerned with repaving the feeder roads so that it is a nicer, smoother 50 mph ride for you NOW, as it is with making sure that this area is competitive enough to weather changes in lifestyle and economic trends. This is looking much further into the future and looking much more broadly at ways to redevelop land.


Is ODOT responsible for the service roads as well?

----------


## Spartan

> My main concern with the highway through the corridor is the fact that it is dangerous, with the previous level of planning that went into it.
> 
> People get off the highway, slam on their brakes and try to dart across to the far lane, to make the nearest entry to the strip mall, instead of slowing down gradually and merging into the lane and taking the second entrance to the strip mall....
> 
> I'd be all for reducing highway access to that corridor to every other arterial, and making better use of city streets to move traffic around.
> 
> Since I know you are in this field and I do want your opinion about what could be done for this area?
> 
> I am having a difficult time envisioning exactly what can be done. Are we talking about urbanizing suburbia?


We are talking exactly about urbanizing suburbia, or to employ a buzz phrase, "retrofitting suburbia" (check out the Ellen Dunham-Jones book on this). I am not with OKC's Planning Dept so I can't speak to their goals beyond being a native southsider, but it is my understanding that they are very serious about this process. I was initially very skeptical and even callous toward the idea of a redevelopment focus on 240 because I feel it's needed more in Capitol Hill, and not on the suburban corridor that was eventually the death knell for Capitol Hill.

That said, I think that for anyone who is skeptical that interesting, progressive things could happen here, there is solace that this seems to be a very serious endeavor with all options on the table. There are easy fixes and there are harder fixes, just as there are public fixes and private fixes for this corridor. I think 240 would make a great BRT corridor, which in particular is a transit mode that I hope to not see anywhere else in OKC.

An easy public fix, so in other words a first step, has to be limiting ingress and egress. I know exactly what you are talking about along the 240 service road, primarily at Penn, but also at other interchanges. That Schlotzsky's curb cut to the right about 100 yards ahead of the westbound offramp is a true menace - as long as traffic isn't already backed up all the way to the offramp from another accident or rush hour traffic. 

Many other high volume sprawl corridors where the infrastructure is over-capacity have taken to proactively limiting ingress and egress, and not just eliminating left turn opportunities, but also limiting right turn opportunities so that to enter a pad site you have to go all the way to the light and then navigate through a development. It's kind of insane for Oklahoma City to allow every single pad site to have ample access to the main frontage road as a standalone development (when it's not, by definition of being a pad site).

Without even talking about truly retrofitting suburbia, here is an excellent example of a seriously over-capacity strip mall wasteland in Summit County (Akron area) that most urban planners in Ohio despise:



Without purchasing more ROW for widening the roadway, the city of Cuyahoga Falls just made the best of eliminating most curb cuts. See the bottom side of Howe Road in particular where there are countless pad sites that have no curb cut. This is a cheap, easy way to maximize safety by concentrating turning traffic in expected places, at traffic lights.

So the moral of the story is that even if you don't necessarily want to talk about revolutionizing land use policies and urbanizing certain corridors, reducing curb cuts is a win-win and won't really threaten anyone's sprawly suburban dreamland. I think the Ed Noble Pkwy in Norman is another good example, but not as good.

----------


## jedicurt

I have been saying this for a long time... i think that we curb cut far too often and allow each developed lot to be completely separate from the others.  by limiting curb cuts and making dedicated turn in locations and then connections between lots, you shift the traffic that is just going from shop to shop off of the main road, and are increasing safety, and drive times

----------


## HangryHippo

> I have been saying this for a long time... i think that we curb cut far too often and allow each developed lot to be completely separate from the others.  by limiting curb cuts and making dedicated turn in locations and then connections between lots, you shift the traffic that is just going from shop to shop off of the main road, and are increasing safety, and drive times


I hate that we curb cut so often in OKC.  I'm all for anything that limits this.

----------


## Spartan

I think Broadway in Edmond is another good example of making curb cuts sparingly.

----------


## Just the facts

If it was me I would eliminate the frontage roads and plant trees there instead.  I would then focus the retail on the adjacent neighborhoods instead of on freeway traffic.  I would then reconnect the street grid and get rid of the large parking lots.  I would also make overpasses across I-240 that didn't have on/off ramps to relieve traffic on main arterials while making it safer for people to walk and bike.

----------


## ljbab728

In other words, you would just like to bulldoze the entire area and start over.  LOL

Most of the businesses there are not in that area to just service the adjacent neighborhoods so that would require a total change in the make up of the types of businesses also.  Nice thought, Kerry, but it's not going to happen.  We'll just have to make the best choices based on what can realistically occur.

----------


## Dubya61

There's some dirt work on the north side of 240 inbetween Walker and Santa Fe (specifically, inbetween The Rib Crib and Jordans Crossing (nursing home?).  Does anybody know what's going in there?

----------


## Rover

> In other words, you would just like to bulldoze the entire area and start over.  LOL
> 
> Most of the businesses there are not in that area to just service the adjacent neighborhoods so that would require a total change in the make up of the types of businesses also.  Nice thought, Kerry, but it's not going to happen.  We'll just have to make the best choices based on what can realistically occur.


Face it, some people are just isolationists and aren't about to change.  They have no concept of free market economics and free trade, let alone free will.  It's all about forcing things to be according to a philosophical notion.

----------


## Spartan

> If it was me I would eliminate the frontage roads and plant trees there instead.  I would then focus the retail on the adjacent neighborhoods instead of on freeway traffic.  I would then reconnect the street grid and get rid of the large parking lots.  I would also make overpasses across I-240 that didn't have on/off ramps to relieve traffic on main arterials while making it safer for people to walk and bike.


Sorry you gotta harness the traffic that 240 brings through the area. Have you ever seen/been to 240? Because idk what street grid you talkin bout, Willis... Those aren't even the nicest neighborhoods. You're just not gonna have a little newurbanist neighborhood village shopping utopia in the hood behind 240/May.

Your dedication to new urbanism is nice but sometimes your ideas are so doggedly insane and completely lacks contextual appropriateness.

----------


## rcjunkie

> There's some dirt work on the north side of 240 inbetween Walker and Santa Fe (specifically, inbetween The Rib Crib and Jordans Crossing (nursing home?).  Does anybody know what's going in there?


It's a new car dealership, Kia If I remember correctly

----------


## MWCGuy

It will be a part of the David Stanley dealerships. They have been buying up land in that area under the name David Stanley Imports.

----------


## bombermwc

> Sorry you gotta harness the traffic that 240 brings through the area. Have you ever seen/been to 240? Because idk what street grid you talkin bout, Willis... Those aren't even the nicest neighborhoods. You're just not gonna have a little newurbanist neighborhood village shopping utopia in the hood behind 240/May.
> 
> Your dedication to new urbanism is nice but sometimes your ideas are so doggedly insane and completely lacks contextual appropriateness.


Write it down folks, i agree with Spartan! SHOCK!

240 is one of the bright spots to the area. You absolutely can't ignore it because it's where most of the sales tax come from in the area. Why do you think the South Chamber is so concerned with bringing some life back to the area?

----------


## MWCGuy

You could really clean that area up you closed some of the driveways and re-tooled the exits/entrances on 240. We really have to get away from having on/off ramps at every major street in this city. You can have overpasses/underpasses at each street and have a service road that accesses two or three streets. The new I-40 section is proof that traffic flows so much better and accidents are fewer and far between.

----------


## Snowman

> You could really clean that area up you closed some of the driveways and re-tooled the exits/entrances on 240. We really have to get away from having on/off ramps at every major street in this city. You can have overpasses/underpasses at each street and have a service road that accesses two or three streets. The new I-40 section is proof that traffic flows so much better and accidents are fewer and far between.


There still is an entry/exit ramp roughly every mile on the new i40 so I am not sure how that is proof, though I think the one diamond interchange per mile is a better arrangement than the shared entry exit lane that merges traffic into a service road right before a stoplight.

----------


## Spartan

240 has them every half mile entering the left side of the access road, and then a curb cut every 100 feet on the right side of the same access road. It's an utter mess, and MWCGuy is right that it is a huge traffic safety problem.

Limited access is needed. Smarter access.

----------


## Snowman

> 240 has them every half mile entering the left side of the access road, and then a curb cut every 100 feet on the right side of the same access road. It's an utter mess, and MWCGuy is right that it is a huge traffic safety problem.
> 
> Limited access is needed. Smarter access.


When he was talking about every 2 or 3 major streets I was thinking the mile line roads, I did not realized they did the half mile ones in that area too. The only other part I remember about the area is the some of the ramps and merge zones felt pretty short.

----------


## Spartan

Well the merging zones are limited because of the number of exits when the next signed exit is 1/4 mile away. Penn and May are full-length but between Western and Eastern there's exits for Western, Walker, Santa Fe, Shields, I-35, Crossroads, then Eastern. The I-35 exit handles a lot of traffic and gets backed up to Walker between 2-6.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> You could really clean that area up you closed some of the driveways and re-tooled the exits/entrances on 240. We really have to get away from having on/off ramps at every major street in this city. You can have overpasses/underpasses at each street and have a service road that accesses two or three streets. The new I-40 section is proof that traffic flows so much better and accidents are fewer and far between.


It may get better when the BLVD is opened up but ingress and egress to downtown is much worse with the new 140 crosstown.  The highway may flow smoother but the Western ramps start backing up around 300 pm and by five, Western is backed up from the onramp all the way back to Reno and sometimes as far back as Sheridan.  Taking the off ramp coming from the west in the morning and it is backed up sometimes onto the actual interstate...don't think that is safe.  The afternoon problem could be greatly help if they would build a dedicated right turn only lane.  I understand that the designers wanted Shields to be the main exit but the public will do what it wants regardless of the designers ideas.  Most people are not going to drive past downtown and then thread their way back in to the city if they work at Devon, the City, the courthouse, etc.  They should have left a ramp at Hudson or Walker

----------


## Snowman

> It may get better when the BLVD is opened up but ingress and egress to downtown is much worse with the new 140 crosstown.  The highway may flow smoother but the Western ramps start backing up around 300 pm and by five, Western is backed up from the onramp all the way back to Reno and sometimes as far back as Sheridan.  Taking the off ramp coming from the west in the morning and it is backed up sometimes onto the actual interstate...don't think that is safe.  The afternoon problem could be greatly help if they would build a dedicated right turn only lane.  I understand that the designers wanted Shields to be the main exit but the public will do what it wants regardless of the designers ideas.  Most people are not going to drive past downtown and then thread their way back in to the city if they work at Devon, the City, the courthouse, etc.  They should have left a ramp at Hudson or Walker


I am guessing it might help if they programmed the lights on Western from Reno through the interchange to work together, though I am not there daily, it seems like most of the times I have been there they were terribly ordered or maybe it is just not at all.  For instance the last time I was there this week going south on Western after the light at Reno turns green and before the first car can get to sw 3rd it's stoplight will turn red, so you sit and watch 4th be green and then have to stop at it too.

----------


## Just the facts

Say what you want but if they want to fix the problem the solution has already been identified.  It is called greyfield development.  It has been used in lots of cities - just not in OKC yet.

http://www.usmayors.org/brownfields/...goldfields.pdf

http://www.cmap.illinois.gov/strateg...urban-retrofit

----------


## Zuplar

> Say what you want but if they want to fix the problem the solution has already been identified.  It is called greyfield development.  It has been used in lots of cities - just not in OKC yet.
> 
> http://www.usmayors.org/brownfields/...goldfields.pdf
> 
> Greyfield / Suburban Retrofit -- Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning


Is this not what they are doing with Crossroads? Turning a failing mall into a mixed use center?

----------


## Just the facts

> Is this not what they are doing with Crossroads? Turning a failing mall into a mixed use center?


I'm not sure.  I know they are redoing it to turn it into a Hispanic themed market place but I don't know if it will be mixed use.  However, if the I-240 rehab is just about repainting the parking lot lines and some building remodels they won't solve anything.  They need to bulldoze it and start over and this time focus on the adjacent neighborhoods and not people driving by on the interstate (which is the strategy that led to the area declined in the first place).

----------


## Snowman

> Is this not what they are doing with Crossroads? Turning a failing mall into a mixed use center?


While it was talked about possibly doing that at one time, I think it shifted to being a reginal mall again with a focus on the Hispanic population.

----------


## traxx

> I'm not sure.  I know they are redoing it to turn it into a Hispanic themed market place but I don't know if it will be mixed use.  However, if the I-240 rehab is just about repainting the parking lot lines and some building remodels they won't solve anything.  They need to bulldoze it and start over and this time focus on the adjacent neighborhoods and not people driving by on the interstate (which is the strategy that led to the area declined in the first place).


Her message gets lost in a horrible PowerPoint. Talk about death by Powerpoint. It started off well enough with pictures used as examples but she then moved flow charts and words. She should've used more real world examples to walk through the planning and exection of good or successful suburban landscapes. She should've made it visual.

----------


## Just the facts

If you are interested in the subject there are lots of other videos out there on YouTube - but I know exactly what you mean.  I actually prefer James Howard Kunstler - lots of visuals and is funny.

----------


## Spartan

> Her message gets lost in a horrible PowerPoint. Talk about death by Powerpoint. It started off well enough with pictures used as examples but she then moved flow charts and words. She should've used more real world examples to walk through the planning and exection of good or successful suburban landscapes. She should've made it visual.


That's funny because she's one of the most renowned faculty members at GT and in planning nationally. You'd think she'd have a captivating presentation style.

----------


## bombermwc

Some folks just can't get away from using the ppt file as a script rather than a talking point reminder. A good idea can be ruined when someone starts reading each line in a ppt. If that's all you're going to do, then just give me the file and i'll go through it myself. Especially seems to be an issue in university schools of business.

----------


## RadicalModerate

I HATE it when presenters do that.  Especially when you are also provided with a handout to look at that consists basically of all the PowerPoint slides . . .

----------


## traxx

I'm really not trying to highjack this thread, but as long as we're on teh PPT subject... This is a few years old but I try to point people to it because it has good design ideas. http://www.telecomassociation.com/ad...sentations.pdf

----------


## MWCGuy

This may have been mentioned already in another thread. The Department of Public Safety is moving the Driver's License Exam Center from Troop A Headquarters to the old Bob Moore Dealership  at 240 and 35 where they have been processing/storing new and retired OHP fleet vehicles. This should speed up the process and provide more space for people waiting in line for driver's license testing.

----------


## ljbab728

> This may have been mentioned already in another thread. The Department of Public Safety is moving the Driver's License Exam Center from Troop A Headquarters to the old Bob Moore Dealership  at 240 and 35 where they have been processing/storing new and retired OHP fleet vehicles. This should speed up the process and provide more space for people waiting in line for driver's license testing.


I'm not sure that will have any affect on I240 revitalization but I hope it helps with driver's license exam issues.

----------


## Architect2010

> I'm not sure that will have any affect on I240 revitalization but I hope it helps with driver's license exam issues.


Well it does put the vacant dealership to more use than car storage. Another building not sitting empty and underutilized.

----------


## bombermwc

And if it's going to be there until the interchange on that side is done, then they'll get like 10 years out of it anyway right?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Not sure if this has been posted before.

Some cool concepts:







The new interchange to be built: I-240/I-35



They still have the damn cloverleafs at two ramps. Very annoying. I hope they might change this, but I'm very doubtful. This just sucks though. I just wish ODOT would get with the program and build all flyovers.

Granted, I still think the highway should be reconfigured to this: 8 lanes, cement, have every other ramp removed and more limited access, reconstruct the service roads in cement and continue the over the interchange, add dual left turn lanes, right turn lane, add 10 ft. sidewalks for ped and bikes. I would not support bike lanes on the service roads. 

Anyways, here is the PDF file: http://www.okc.gov/planning/envision240/envision240.pdf

I believe also heard from Steve somewhere, that ODOT will be releasing its new 8 year plan on Monday, will be interesting to see that.

----------


## SoonerDave

Loathe the traffic circles.

What gets me is that, as a kid, we had the Classen traffic circle that became a nightmare of accidents and congestion, and the wisdom finally emerged that while they (circles) were pretty, they weren't very practical, and tore it out. Now we're forgetting what we've learned and talking about putting them back in. Alas.

----------


## SoonerDave

So do I see in that diagram that I-240 is going to be rebuilt to go _above_ Shields Blvd??

I just wish they'd kill off the eastbound on-ramp to I-240 from Shields RIGHT NOW. Its a prime source of the rush-hour accidents there.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Loathe the traffic circles.
> 
> What gets me is that, as a kid, we had the Classen traffic circle that became a nightmare of accidents and congestion, and the wisdom finally emerged that while they (circles) were pretty, they weren't very practical, and tore it out. Now we're forgetting what we've learned and talking about putting them back in. Alas.


that is an apples and oranges comparison

----------


## HangryHippo

> The new interchange to be built: I-240/I-35
> 
> 
> 
> They still have the damn cloverleafs at two ramps. Very annoying. I hope they might change this, but I'm very doubtful. This just sucks though. I just wish ODOT would get with the program and build all flyovers.
> 
> Granted, I still think the highway should be reconfigured to this: 8 lanes, cement, have every other ramp removed and more limited access, reconstruct the service roads in cement and continue the over the interchange, add dual left turn lanes, right turn lane, add 10 ft. sidewalks for ped and bikes. I would not support bike lanes on the service roads. 
> 
> Anyways, here is the PDF file: http://www.okc.gov/planning/envision240/envision240.pdf
> ...


They're still going to use the cloverleaf ramps??  Honest to god, what a joke.

----------


## bchris02

So I am guessing this isn't even going to be a stack interchange?

----------


## OKVision4U

Yes, that is the ODOT that says "we can't have flyovers because of freezing roads and they want to limit them because of safety".  I told them that in OKC, we only have a handful of poor / icy conditions each year, but we have to drive on your treachorous engineering for 365 days a year, 24/7.  Now what is the SAFETY issue?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> They're still going to use the cloverleaf ramps??  Honest to god, what a joke.


2 of them that feed on to ramps not the interstate ..   so not a joke

----------


## adaniel

Hybrid cloverleaf-flyover interchanges have been built in quite a few cities and are very safe and efficient, provided that the cloverleaf portion of the interchange serves lower traffic ramps and have dedicated lanes for merging (so no weaving). Not everything needs to be a four layer stack, and given the piecemeal way ODOT is funded it would be 2030 before one would be built here.

----------


## HangryHippo

> 2 of them that feed on to ramps not the interstate ..   so not a joke


Oh, pardon me.  You're right.  Not a joke.

----------


## OKVision4U

> 2 of them that feed on to ramps not the interstate ..   so not a joke


No, look again.  The loop from E bound 240 to N bound 35 is still the major problem in congestion.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> They're still going to use the cloverleaf ramps??  Honest to god, what a joke.


I know, I'm still not quite sure if they are really going to do that. Nearly every city our size and bigger is going to flyovers and we're still going back to the cloverleafs. It's insanity. ODOT really needs help.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Yes, that is the ODOT that says "we can't have flyovers because of freezing roads and they want to limit them because of safety".  I told them that in OKC, we only have a handful of poor / icy conditions each year, but we have to drive on your treachorous engineering for 365 days a year, 24/7.  Now what is the SAFETY issue?


Agreed, from what I've seen, Denver has tons of 5 stack interchanges and we can't do that here in OKC, in a subtropical climate???? Thats a new one.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> 2 of them that feed on to ramps not the interstate ..   so not a joke


It is a joke, cloverleafs are outdated and inefficient designs. That is one thing I love about Dallas is the interchanges are a breeze. You don't even really have to slow down at all going through them.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Hybrid cloverleaf-flyover interchanges have been built in quite a few cities and are very safe and efficient, provided that the cloverleaf portion of the interchange serves lower traffic ramps and have dedicated lanes for merging (so no weaving). Not everything needs to be a four layer stack, and given the piecemeal way ODOT is funded it would be 2030 before one would be built here.


Well, they need to change the way they fund it then, because this is ridiculous.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> So I am guessing this isn't even going to be a stack interchange?


Unfortunately not. Tulsa will probably decide to build one first lol

----------


## ljbab728

> It is a joke, cloverleafs are outdated and inefficient designs. That is one thing I love about Dallas is the interchanges are a breeze. You don't even really have to slow down at all going through them.


Plupan, that's because you can't go more than 5 MPH already on most DFW freeways.  LOL

----------


## bchris02

> Unfortunately not. Tulsa will probably decide to build one first lol


I don't think Tulsa could at the moment, because its not the city that determines these things.  All the interchange designs are in the hands of ODOT.  The only way Tulsa is getting a major stack interchange is if there is a change of ODOT policy and the first project after the change happens to be in Tulsa.

This isn't just an Oklahoma thing though.  North Carolina only has one four-level stack in the state and it was built fairly recently in Charlotte.  Tennessee on the other hand has them everywhere.  Driving through Nashville on I-40 makes me think of Texas cities because of how the freeways are built.  Tennessee's transportation department I believe gets far more funding and it shows.

So back onto this interchange, is it at least going to be three-levels or will it be ground level like the current interchange?

----------


## bchris02

> Plupan, that's because you can't go more than 5 MPH already on most DFW freeways.  LOL


I disagree.  Dallas freeways, when not clogged, actually move much faster than OKC freeways do.  It's custom there to drive 10-15 mph over the speed limit vs 5 under the limit in OKC.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Plupan, that's because you can't go more than 5 MPH already on most DFW freeways.  LOL


Well, that's only true during rush hour, but imagine how worse it would be if they were still all cloverleafs? Dallas still has plenty of cloverleaf interchanges, but the 5 stack interchanges are breathtaking and magnificent, so efficient and ease of use.

I was doing 90MPH and still had a few people passing me on the North Dallas Tollway. I loved it!!!!!!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I don't think Tulsa could at the moment, because its not the city that determines these things.  All the interchange designs are in the hands of ODOT.  The only way Tulsa is getting a major stack interchange is if there is a change of ODOT policy and the first project after the change happens to be in Tulsa.
> 
> This isn't just an Oklahoma thing though.  North Carolina only has one four-level stack in the state and it was built fairly recently in Charlotte.  Tennessee on the other hand has them everywhere.  Driving through Nashville on I-40 makes me think of Texas cities because of how the freeways are built.  Tennessee's transportation department I believe gets far more funding and it shows.
> 
> So back onto this interchange, is it at least going to be three-levels or will it be ground level like the current interchange?


I think this one will be at least 3 or 4 levels.

----------


## ljbab728

> Well, that's only true during rush hour, but imagine how worse it would be if they were still all cloverleafs? Dallas still has plenty of cloverleaf interchanges, but the 5 stack interchanges are breathtaking and magnificent, so efficient and ease of use.
> 
> I was doing 90MPH and still had a few people passing me on the North Dallas Tollway. I loved it!!!!!!


I've driven on Dallas freeways for at least 40 years and totally disagree.  I've been in very slow traffic at 11PM at night.  I'm sure you enjoy doing 90, plupan, but please be careful.  That's totally dangerous on a city freeway.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I've driven on Dallas freeways for at least 40 years and totally disagree.  I've been in very slow traffic at 11PM at night.  I'm sure you enjoy doing 90, plupan, but please be careful.  That's totally dangerous on a city freeway.


Huh, well I was there last weekend, and it had better traffic then OKC, guess it's bipolar. 

As for me speeding, I actually have been slowing down and driving the speed limit lately, but you are completely right about it being dangerous. I've actually been looking into a good track around here, but haven't found much. :/

Anyways, perhaps there was a wreck or a football game going on when you there?

----------


## ljbab728

> Huh, well I was there last weekend, and it had better traffic then OKC, guess it's bipolar. 
> 
> As for me speeding, I actually have been slowing down and driving the speed limit lately, but you are completely right about it being dangerous. I've actually been looking into a good track around here, but haven't found much. :/
> 
> Anyways, perhaps there was a wreck or a football game going on when you there?


Nope, no wrecks and no football games.  It's just extremely busy almost any time of the day.  And I'm glad you're slowing down.  I did the same thing when I was your age so I understand the thrill.  It only takes one quick slip up at 90 MPH per hour to be fatal for you or someone in another car.  Please try to remember that.  It could ruin your life.

----------


## MWCGuy

What I consider crazy are folks doing 20+ over the speed limit in the city during the day. You never know when a tire will blow, you might debris in the road or someone may pullout in front of you causing you to crash and take out as many as dozen other cars. 

If any of you have the time to take OSU-OKC's Precision Driving Course I would encourage you to do so. It's worth the time and the money, not to mention it will save you a few dollars on car insurance. I took through work and I came away with a whole new set of driving skills.

In regards to the topic, I think 240 needs to be reconfigured to where the service road can only be accessed at certain points instead of driveway cutaways every 50 feet. The westbound Penn off ramp and eastbound Walker off ramp are nightmares to navigate on most days.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> What I consider crazy are folks doing 20+ over the speed limit in the city during the day. You never know when a tire will blow, you might debris in the road or someone may pullout in front of you causing you to crash and take out as many as dozen other cars. 
> 
> *If any of you have the time to take OSU-OKC's Precision Driving Course I would encourage you to do so. It's worth the time and the money, not to mention it will save you a few dollars on car insurance. I took through work and I came away with a whole new set of driving skills.*
> 
> In regards to the topic, I think 240 needs to be reconfigured to where the service road can only be accessed at certain points instead of driveway cutaways every 50 feet. The westbound Penn off ramp and eastbound Walker off ramp are nightmares to navigate on most days.


I've been thinking of doing that for some time now.

I also completely agree with limiting the access of the highway.

----------


## OKVision4U

The skill set I like to use at the I-240 area is my ability to manage our " On / Off " Ramps that provide 50 ft. for decision making & life saving skills!  Why do we still have On / Off Ramps in the year 2013?  ...This is the best of our Okie Engineering.  ... it makes me proud.

----------


## bchris02

> The skill set I like to use at the I-240 area is my ability to manage our " On / Off " Ramps that provide 50 ft. for decision making & life saving skills!  Why do we still have On / Off Ramps in the year 2013?  ...This is the best of our Okie Engineering.  ... it makes me proud.


I am not sure I understand.  Unless you are proposing downgrading I-240 from a freeway to a boulevard, it has to have on and off-ramps.  Maybe they should only have them at the mile thoroughfares though i.e. getting rid of the Walker exit and possibly choosing either than Shields or Santa Fe and getting rid of the other.

I-240 is too important in my opinion to downgrade.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

There are no highways in OKC that should be downgraded to a street or divided BLVD. If people want to remove the portion of I-235 that runs near downtown, well, that is for the community to decide. I would vote against it, but that's just me. Maybe I'm biased towards cars.

----------


## bchris02

> There are no highways in OKC that should be downgraded to a street or divided BLVD. If people want to remove the portion of I-235 that runs near downtown, well, that is for the community to decide. I would vote against it, but that's just me. Maybe I'm biased towards cars.


I can see the point in wanting to downgrade I-235 but I too am against it.  I-235 is very important in bringing people into downtown from Edmond and the north metro.  If there is one freeway in OKC that I would say isn't that important, it is I-35 between I-40 and I-44, but I doubt that area will ever be in play.

----------


## OKVision4U

> I am not sure I understand.  Unless you are proposing downgrading I-240 from a freeway to a boulevard, it has to have on and off-ramps.  Maybe they should only have them at the mile thoroughfares though i.e. getting rid of the Walker exit and possibly choosing either than Shields or Santa Fe and getting rid of the other.
> 
> I-240 is too important in my opinion to downgrade.


OK, when you try to exit on I-240 from Western & Walker, the one exiting does NOT have their own exit (or even space) drive on.  The on-coming traffic is using the same (dedicated space) to merge on-to the freeway.  And to make it worse, it is a very very short ramp.  A person has to hit their breaks while on the freeway until you (both) find a space to merge in-to.

----------


## bombermwc

Someone must have listened, because they're repaving the frontage road on the west end, north side. That wasn't really where it was needed the most, but maybe they're starting on one end and moving down??

----------


## Zuplar

> Someone must have listened, because they're repaving the frontage road on the west end, north side. That wasn't really where it was needed the most, but maybe they're starting on one end and moving down??


Now that you say that I noticed that when I went to Outback last week. One late had already been done at that time.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

These people were walking out of a McDonalds and having pull the stroller up over the curbs and push it through the grass and repeat it over and over again. I took this picture after the the lady tripped and fell on the curb trying to get the stroller over it. There really needs to be sidewalks here. 


They should widen these service roads to three lanes each way anyways, it is getting way to congested. This highway needs to have some of its on/off removed to, that would help some.

----------


## Spartan

Just read through this thread. Suburb worship is so weird to me. So is a 4-stack freeway interchange like the D cup of sprawl?

----------


## bchris02

> Just read through this thread. Suburb worship is so weird to me. So is a 4-stack freeway interchange like the D cup of sprawl?


A healthy city has a strong downtown and healthy suburbs.  The I-240 area really needs a shot in the arm but I wouldn't say it is yet so far gone that it can't come back.  If something doesn't change though it could end up that way.  As for stack interchanges, they move traffic much more efficiently than do the cloverleafs that OKC currently has.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Stack interchanges are great

----------


## Spartan

> A healthy city has a strong downtown and healthy suburbs.  The I-240 area really needs a shot in the arm but I wouldn't say it is yet so far gone that it can't come back.  If something doesn't change though it could end up that way.  As for stack interchanges, they move traffic much more efficiently than do the cloverleafs that OKC currently has.


I agree but they're also a lot more expensive.

As for the "shot in the arm" I-240 needs, what do you propose? Just reworking the feeder road, widening it, reducing curb cuts, and then tearing down some of the strip mall dreck and replacing with new strip mall dreck that will last 20 years?

I am curious how you think suburban planning should "work" to solve the obvious problems that are inherent with...suburbs

----------


## bchris02

> I agree but they're also a lot more expensive.
> 
> As for the "shot in the arm" I-240 needs, what do you propose? Just reworking the feeder road, widening it, reducing curb cuts, and then tearing down some of the strip mall dreck and replacing with new strip mall dreck that will last 20 years?
> 
> I am curious how you think suburban planning should "work" to solve the obvious problems that are inherent with...suburbs


Suburban development is going to always have inherent problems.  Making I-240 conform to urbanist standards is not economically feasible nor is it the shot in the arm the area needs. What the I-240 area needs is a commercial focal point like Crossroads Mall used to be.  It needs something to draw people there who wouldn't otherwise go. Most of the economic development on the south side of the metro has migrated to south Moore and Norman.  If current trends continue, the I-240 area will continue to rot and become blight.  When I lived in OKC the first time in the late '90s, I-240 was a much nicer corridor than it is today with many prominent retailers and restaurants doing business there.  Today, it's barely still relevant but give it ten more years and it will no longer be.

----------


## OKVision4U

> *I agree but they're also a lot more expensive*.
> 
> As for the "shot in the arm" I-240 needs, what do you propose? Just reworking the feeder road, widening it, reducing curb cuts, and then tearing down some of the strip mall dreck and replacing with new strip mall dreck that will last 20 years?
> 
> I am curious how you think suburban planning should "work" to solve the obvious problems that are inherent with...suburbs


For our major corridors, why would we want anything less?  If the stack is the obvious solution, then why wouldn't we hold them to this standard?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Because they're too expensive and we can't afford it while tons of other cities are going the stack interchange route. /sarcasm

----------


## macfoucin

Maybe we could add a few roundabouts at I240, that seems to be a cureall for some.  :Wink:

----------


## SoonerDave

> I agree but they're also a lot more expensive.
> 
> As for the "shot in the arm" I-240 needs, what do you propose? Just reworking the feeder road, widening it, reducing curb cuts, and then tearing down some of the strip mall dreck and replacing with new strip mall dreck that will last 20 years?
> 
> I am curious how you think suburban planning should "work" to solve the obvious problems that are inherent with...suburbs


Think in this vein we have to be diligent about distinguishing our likes and dislikes from what constitutes good planning. Those who pre-emptively hate the suburbs for whatever reason will _never_ like _any_ plan to modify or update them _unless_ that plan forces them into being what they prefer in the first place - urban areas. That is, it wouldn't be sensible to me, given my preference for the suburbs, to start referring to concrete jungles as "urban dreck" merely because I don't prefer them.

I-240 needs a variety of things to help improve - in terms of simple eye appeal, a great first step would be the elimination of the pole-mounted signs and replacement with monument-mounted variety. Second, the traffic flow along the entire breadth of that stretch needs to be re-thought, especially in terms of the (eventual?) I-35 interchange rebuild - and a great first step would be to close off the Shields Avenue on-ramp. I have also wondered if widened service roads would be beneficial in this area, as traffic on the westbound service road at Penn can become _especially_ congested during rush hour and into the early evenings. 

In terms of business, however, there's not a great deal you can do because the tenancy along that stretch varies so widely - lesser apartments and a fairly nasty hotel (with no small crime history) at one end, a police facility at the other, and a variety of new-to-damaged-credit car dealerships and a varying retail mix in between, all couched amid some decent if older (60's/70's era) residential areas. Some here old enough to remember can hearken the days when the Southern Hills Shopping Center on the south side of I-240 at Penn was actually the grand old TG&Y Family Center that spanned nearly the entire center - and thankfully, when that place was rehabbed many moons ago, they at least maintained the brick veneer. The Walnut Creek center on the north side, west of Penn, has been problematic for years, although I will say Hobby Lobby's decision to move into the old Price Chopper/PriceMart (whatever) seems to have perked up that area some. The problem is that particular shopping area is so far pushed back from the street its just not very "accessible" (or at least doesn't seem that way). 

All this blathering is to say I don't think there's a single magic bullet that will revive the area. As bchris02 pointed out, there's movement south and southwest of that area - even out of OKC as I-240 turns SW into I-44 - and hence a lot of sales tax $$ are heading to the Tri City area. Heck, figure that has to be why they're working hard to develop that Portland area near the airport into some nicer retail options. Would also have to think Odom would be invested in getting that area rehabbed/upgraded, as I believe he still owns/develops the 240 Penn Plaza (with the PetsMart/Mardel/Old Navy etc).

----------


## Spartan

I'm not saying to urbanize it. Yes, we need to find ways to revitalize this stretch or else we will lose out to Moore but I can't say enough doubling down on the failures isn't the right way. 240 isn't going to out-Moore Moore. Let Moore worry about the consequences of it's strip mall dreck in 20-30 years.

----------


## SouthSide

For those in the know,  has any action being taken on the Envision 240 study? I believe the study was completed in 2014 and I have not seen any action on improving this area.

----------


## Architect2010

Does anyone know what is being built on the northside of 240, between Walker and Santa Fe? Probably another car dealership...

----------


## Dubya61

> Does anyone know what is being built on the northside of 240, between Walker and Santa Fe? Probably another car dealership...


IIRC:  David Stanley Kia

----------


## catch22

Correct ^ (not sure on who, but it is a dealership)

----------


## MWCGuy

It will be a David Stanley Dealership for sure the Kia brand name is the only thing that is in the rumor mill at the moment. The county assessor lists the property owner as David Stanley Imports.

----------


## bombermwc

It's got the David Stanley Kia sign out front...or at least it used to.

----------


## JesStang

Anyone know what they're building on 240 and Penn (northeast corner)? It's the building next to Schlotzsky's and Denneys that has been a hundred different things but was finally torn down. They're moving dirt around but I haven't seen a sign for anything.

----------


## Spartan

Wow I-240 really is seeing revitalization!

----------


## Tavia

Cane's Chicken

----------


## Spartan

Now that's a boom

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Now that's a boom


Maybe so because this will be the biggest Canes Chicken I've seen anywhere, unless 70% of the lot will be parking.

----------


## Spartan

> Maybe so because this will be the biggest Canes Chicken I've seen anywhere, unless 70% of the lot will be parking.


Would that surprise you?

----------


## bombermwc

I wish they would get back on repaving the frontage road. They did the west end (that didn't really need it...and I don't think they striped it yet).

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Envision 240 kicks off petition drive for BID | The Journal Record

----------


## SouthSide

With a BID the property owners have to agree, right? I will be surprised if that happens with all the apartments.

----------


## Geographer

State statutes requires that petition support from ownership be greater than 50% of the area liable to be assessed. If there are 100 acres of land eligible to be assessed, then the process requires petitions with a “yes” from owners who collectively own greater than 50 acres. Although the City may technically approve a BID with barely over 50% support, a higher percentage of support will set a stronger foundation with less resistance.

----------


## SouthSide

Thanks for the clarification. The Envision 240 study was undertaken in 2012. I wonder why it has taken so  long to move to the next step.

----------


## Spartan

> Envision 240 kicks off petition drive for BID | The Journal Record


What the hell are they going to use a BID for? This is putting the cart way before the horse. They don't have a district, and that's not to say they shouldn't embark on some BI, but for a BID you need a District.. just having a geography selected doesn't give you a district. 

This is typical laughable city planning on the part of OKC. This is becoming systemically helpless.

----------


## SouthSide

> What the hell are they going to use a BID for? This is putting the cart way before the horse. They don't have a district, and that's not to say they shouldn't embark on some BI, but for a BID you need a District.. just having a geography selected doesn't give you a district. 
> 
> This is typical laughable city planning on the part of OKC. This is becoming systemically helpless.


In your opinion, what makes a district having excluded geography? What districts if any do you see in the south OKC  besides Capitol Hill?

----------


## boitoirich

Other than Capitol Hill, there are none. It will take time for the Wheeler District and Core 2 Shore to come together, the Farmer's Market has a shot (the OKC Freeway Boulevard certainly doesn't help), and Hubcap Alley is still premature. Those are the only places any concerted public effort begin to make since on the south side. I240 is what it is. But it ain't a district.

----------


## Just the facts

Whatever they call it or how they fund it, if they repeat the same design mistake of targeting I-240 as if it was Main St they are going to end up with the exact same result.  OKC needs to get away from frontage road retail - and fast.  We need Place Making, not Drive-by Place Making.

----------


## SouthSide

So an area is only a district when it is referred to by a place name ? I don't see why an identity or brand can't be created for this area just like Core to Shore or Wheeler. With Crossroads in its current state, it is the main shopping area for southwest okc.

----------


## ljbab728

> Other than Capitol Hill, there are none.


Stockyards?

----------


## Just the facts

I-240 is a sea of sprawl catering to the automobile.  Applying new urbanism terms to sprawl doesn't solve the problem, solving the problem solves the problem.  My question is, do they really even know what the primary problem is?  If all they want to do is rebuild what already decayed then expect to keep rebuilding it every 20 to 30 years.  Just make sure they collect enough taxes to pay for it.

----------


## baralheia

For those of us (like me) who are unfamiliar with how New Urbanism would apply to neighborhoods outside of the downtown core, could you give a brief description of how the problems with the I-240 corridor could be solved? Thanks!

----------


## Urbanized

^^^^^^^
Here is an excellent resource to help answer this question (5-10 minute read): Sprawl Repair: From Sprawl to Complete Communities, by Galina Tachieva : Articles : Terrain.org

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Lets keep this highway a suburban area please and not urbanize it. Widen it to 8 lanes plus 3 lanes of service road each way with concrete, led lights, and new & better landscaping.

----------


## Dubya61

> Lets keep this highway a suburban area please and not urbanize it. Widen it to 8 lanes plus 3 lanes of service road each way with concrete, led lights, and new & better landscaping.


It's unfortunate that you cannot see the value to new urbanism.  First of all, applying new urbanism principles would not turn this area into the high-rise ghettos of Hong Kong.  New urbanism has plenty of room for a suburban lifestyle and highways.  Applying new urbanism principles to this area would allow many more stores to use the same plot of ground, maybe even get a store or two there that you like -- maybe a store that sells Armani suits.  It would reward denser populations -- maybe even encourage a residential skyscraper that I bet you'd like.  It would allow a better property tax revenue for the city which would in turn (with decent governance) allow better funding for city streets -- maybe even a 6-lane city street like you seem to appreciate in Dallas.  It would allow a better semblance of neighborhood.  It would allow a better lifestyle for many which could, in turn, allow them to better accumulate wealth.  Maybe one of these newly wealthy OKC citizens would start up a film production business and you would be able to stay in this wonderful city AND pursue your acting career.

----------


## Just the facts

> For those of us (like me) who are unfamiliar with how New Urbanism would apply to neighborhoods outside of the downtown core, could you give a brief description of how the problems with the I-240 corridor could be solved? Thanks!


When I get to a computer I will be happy to post some examples in addition to what Urbanized posted.  Alas, the very fact that this effort is called I-240 Revitalization tells me they are trying to solve the wrong problem,  Step 1 should be to literally turn their back to I-240 and cater to adjacent residential and building new higher density residential.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> It's unfortunate that you cannot see the value to new urbanism.  First of all, applying new urbanism principles would not turn this area into the high-rise ghettos of Hong Kong.  New urbanism has plenty of room for a suburban lifestyle and highways.  Applying new urbanism principles to this area would allow many more stores to use the same plot of ground, maybe even get a store or two there that you like -- maybe a store that sells Armani suits.  It would reward denser populations -- maybe even encourage a residential skyscraper that I bet you'd like.  It would allow a better property tax revenue for the city which would in turn (with decent governance) allow better funding for city streets -- maybe even a 6-lane city street like you seem to appreciate in Dallas.  It would allow a better semblance of neighborhood.  It would allow a better lifestyle for many which could, in turn, allow them to better accumulate wealth.  Maybe one of these newly wealthy OKC citizens would start up a film production business and you would be able to stay in this wonderful city AND pursue your acting career.


i think new urbanism is great and has its place. I'd love to see the Will Rodgers Eastside Development 100% new urbanism. I'd love to see Glimcher do 100% new urbanism. I'd love it if downtown Edmond would hire Jeff Speck to guide the downtown.

I'd also love to see I240 have some dense developments and a couple mid-high rises. I do not think I240 should retrofit into new urbanism however.

For I240, I want to see cars prioritized, the highway widened, and more wide roads there. Not everything needs to be new urbanism.

----------


## baralheia

As a resident of the general area being discussed, I would love to see more walkable options, but I highly disagree with totally ignoring I-240. That highway is a huge economic driver for this area and ignoring it will leave money on the table for those businesses. That said, ignoring the residential developments surrounding this corridor is a mistake, as well. I think there needs to be a good balance between quality, walkable development that serves the needs of the community and car-oriented development serving the needs of commuters and travelers along the I-240 corridor - and yes, I wholly believe they can coexist.

This area is 4 miles away from downtown but feels a lot like you're in the 'burbs. I personally would love to change that up a bit with some midrise development - the tallest building along that corridor is probably the new Hampton Inn that was finished a year or two ago - and get some more dense residential and commercial areas. There's a TON of vacant land and a fair bit of dis-used or underutilized property along this corridor that could make that happen (car dealerships, I'm looking at you)... not to mention that a few of the apartment complexes towards the west side of that corridor need a LOT of help.

As for I-240: Honestly, it isn't anywhere near capacity, and dumping money into widening it right now would be a complete waste of money. The service roads and on/off ramps definitely need some TLC and some re-engineering (especially the westbound off ramp for Shields/Santa Fe), but aside from cosmetic upgrades the highway itself is fine, and probably will be for a good while. I've never seen traffic jams on this highway that weren't caused by accidents or the I-240 and I-35 interchange (which is absolutely the worst component of that highway). Although ODOT is going to be replacing that interchange "soon" (completed by 2018/19 if I recall correctly), they're halfassing it. The new interchange will be much, much better, than the current one to be sure, but it's still not as good as it could be.

Urbanized, thank you for that link... I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it, but I will soon. And JTF, I'd love to see any examples that you may have. Thanks!

----------


## Dubya61

> i think new urbanism is great and has its place. I'd love to see the Will Rodgers Eastside Development 100% new urbanism. I'd love to see Glimcher do 100% new urbanism. I'd love it if downtown Edmond would hire Jeff Speck to guide the downtown.
> 
> I'd also love to see I240 have some dense developments and a couple mid-high rises. I do not think I240 should retrofit into new urbanism however.
> 
> For I240, I want to see cars prioritized, the highway widened, and more wide roads there. Not everything needs to be new urbanism.


IMO, everything DOES need to be new urbanism.  New urbanism is a design philosophy that promotes growth, livability and walkability.  It does not aim towards the elimination of the automobile.  Why do you want to see cars prioritized?  What about the drivers of the cars? the sentient occupant of the cars?  You know where cars need to be prioritized? in movies where cars are alive and on racetracks (which, by the way, really should be places built around people, too -- drivers and spectators -- otherwise what's the purpose?).
Why do you need more wide roads there?  Is it a race track?  Is it important to get more people to Crossroads Mall? the airport?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

we just completely disagree I guess. That's fine. It's just the kind of development I prefer. I'd rather I240 become like the Sam Rayburn Tollway through Frisco prioritizing cars in the road hat get you to your destination quickly. If you don't want that, there are tons of other walkable developments you can either drive or take DART to. That is kind of how I see I240.

I do agree the area should be more dense.

----------


## Spartan

> In your opinion, what makes a district having excluded geography? What districts if any do you see in the south OKC  besides Capitol Hill?


Well, just to bring it back to Envision 240, doing a BID here will fail for a number of reasons. What kind of services and outputs (results) does a BID produce? It's generally the umbrella of "district services" which usually relate to wayfinding, ambassadors, trash removal, landscaping, marketing, etc. There is nothing under that umbrella that they can do that will produce the same output (revitalization) that would otherwise occur with a BID elsewhere. It's true that 240 is a commercial tax-base development project, but while a BID is often a good tool for that, it's the wrong approach for what 240 is. You do marketing, branding, and on-the-ground relations in a place like Western Avenue, not the I-240 frontage road. 

I don't want to see or hear any "Shop 240!" commercials anytime soon because that's just not what we have here. 240 is not going to be successful by promoting a unique, special shopping environment. It's a strip with a bunch of exits that have stores and restaurants. Let's instead do a BID along Capitol Hill SW 25th or Stockyards City (which has an active Main Street Program, very similar). I also think that S. Western Ave including Wheeler-to-240, while not very picturesque, is the commercial backbone of the southside. That's a street worth investing in, and right now lots of people walk in the grass. Similarly, I'd like to someday see a Downtown-to-Airport rail link traverse SW 29th Street, which has a lot of latent potential. 240 also might be a good fit for a BRT to service all of the apartments and retail workers along the corridor; I would think that could be a huge equity win to augment a downtown or even Capitol Hill-to-Paseo streetcar.

But you have to embrace these south side areas for what they are. 240 is what it is, just as 29th Street is what it is. I say that as a southsider myself that wants the area to thrive as a vibrant, multicultural community.

----------


## Just the facts

> Urbanized, thank you for that link... I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it, but I will soon. And JTF, I'd love to see any examples that you may have. Thanks!


I seem to remember doing a quick and dirty land-use plan for the 240 area, if I can find it I will post it.  In the mean time we can start with this.

----------


## Buffalo Bill

> I'd rather I240 become like the Sam Rayburn Tollway through Frisco.


If that were to happen, there wouldn't be anything left to "vitalize".  You'd have to doze everything within 200 feet north and south of the existing median barrier to install that kind of footprint.

----------


## bombermwc

I'd like to see the frontage roads get repaved. They repaved the section west of Penn up to May, which is one of the least traveled and was in the best shape comparatively, while leaving the horrible pothole-patch that is the rest of the intersections. We've seen Western Ave. repaved for a second time in 15 years too and it was in good shape.

----------


## Spartan

Western was getting course though. It carries the most traffi on the southside so it is probably a very high priority street.

----------


## bombermwc

Yeah but you have to get on/off the highway to get to it  :Smile:  Sometimes I think I'm going off-road on those sections just before the lights (especially on the west-bound side).

----------


## SoonerDave

> *It's unfortunate that you cannot see the value to new urbanism*.  First of all, applying new urbanism principles would not turn this area into the high-rise ghettos of Hong Kong.  New urbanism has plenty of room for a suburban lifestyle and highways.  Applying new urbanism principles to this area would allow many more stores to use the same plot of ground, maybe even get a store or two there that you like -- maybe a store that sells Armani suits.  It would reward denser populations -- maybe even encourage a residential skyscraper that I bet you'd like.  It would allow a better property tax revenue for the city which would in turn (with decent governance) allow better funding for city streets -- maybe even a 6-lane city street like you seem to appreciate in Dallas.  It would allow a better semblance of neighborhood.  It would allow a better lifestyle for many which could, in turn, allow them to better accumulate wealth.  Maybe one of these newly wealthy OKC citizens would start up a film production business and you would be able to stay in this wonderful city AND pursue your acting career.


There are three issues that frustrate me greatly with this. 

1. It takes on this "if you don't agree, you're just stupid" moral sophomorism. It assumes that the benefits of "new urbanism" are universal, and if you don't see them, _you're just uneducated/unaware_. You're not entitled to have a contrary opinion. 
2. It assumes _everyone_ has this nascent desire to live an in urban or one-off urban space. I do not. I have no desire for a quasi-urban-jungle motif in our area, nor cramming people into these 800-sf residental cells that are all the rage in many of these new "urban panaceas." 
3. It presumes the "we know better" notion of "well, you only _think_ you like it here. We can make it better for you." One of the basic freedoms I love about our country is that no one is a paragon of virtue. If person A likes the urban spaces, great. Power to 'em. If person B likes suburban spaces, great. Power to 'em. But the time either side starts superimposing _their_ preference on someone _else_ because "it's better, trust us" is where I get my Irish up. I have *no* problem with a bit of an urban renaissance where apropos. I have a great _deal_ of trouble with the idea that it should be imposed because someone _else_ thinks its "better."

----------


## Just the facts

After driving around on OKC roads for the last 6 weeks I have come to this conclusion.  Either there needs to be a massive tax increase dedicated to street maintenance OR every effort should be made in OKC to remove the automobile as the primary mode of transportation.   Anyone thinking the solution lies in the middle is not living in reality.  The fact is that the current tax rates aren't near enough to maintain the infrastructure, so either raise more money or get less stuff to maintain.

----------


## SOONER8693

> there are three issues that frustrate me greatly with this. 
> 
> 1. It takes on this "if you don't agree, you're just stupid" moral sophomorism. It assumes that the benefits of "new urbanism" are universal, and if you don't see them, _you're just uneducated/unaware_. You're not entitled to have a contrary opinion. 
> 2. It assumes _everyone_ has this nascent desire to live an in urban or one-off urban space. I do not. I have no desire for a quasi-urban-jungle motif in our area, nor cramming people into these 800-sf residental cells that are all the rage in many of these new "urban panaceas." 
> 3. It presumes the "we know better" notion of "well, you only _think_ you like it here. We can make it better for you." one of the basic freedoms i love about our country is that no one is a paragon of virtue. If person a likes the urban spaces, great. Power to 'em. If person b likes suburban spaces, great. Power to 'em. But the time either side starts superimposing _their_ preference on someone _else_ because "it's better, trust us" is where i get my irish up. I have *no* problem with a bit of an urban renaissance where apropos. I have a great _deal_ of trouble with the idea that it should be imposed because someone _else_ thinks its "better."


amen!

----------


## Just the facts

What Soonerdave is missing though is that what he thinks is 'normal' is actually someone elses preference that was forced on all of us.  The free-market small government solution is New Urbanism, which is really just Old Urbanism before the federal government got involved.  It's funny (in a sad way) that many of my fellow right-wingers are so quick to look to government to provide them mobility between their house and their local shopping center.  The founding fathers would be disappointed in the people supposedly carrying their banner of limited government today.

If the public is being asked to contribute to personal transit and restoration of private businesses shouldn't the most financially sustainable solution be the prefered solution?  If not, why not?  The so-called 'private sector' already had their chance in the 240 business area and failed, and now are asking for a bailout.

If their big idea to save the area is to repave streets and put flower beds in 10 acre parking lots, then I say No because we can't afford the tax burden that requires.

----------


## Dubya61

> There are three issues that frustrate me greatly with this. 
> 
> 1. It takes on this "if you don't agree, you're just stupid" moral sophomorism. It assumes that the benefits of "new urbanism" are universal, and if you don't see them, _you're just uneducated/unaware_. You're not entitled to have a contrary opinion. 
> 2. It assumes _everyone_ has this nascent desire to live an in urban or one-off urban space. I do not. I have no desire for a quasi-urban-jungle motif in our area, nor cramming people into these 800-sf residental cells that are all the rage in many of these new "urban panaceas." 
> 3. It presumes the "we know better" notion of "well, you only _think_ you like it here. We can make it better for you." One of the basic freedoms I love about our country is that no one is a paragon of virtue. If person A likes the urban spaces, great. Power to 'em. If person B likes suburban spaces, great. Power to 'em. But the time either side starts superimposing _their_ preference on someone _else_ because "it's better, trust us" is where I get my Irish up. I have *no* problem with a bit of an urban renaissance where apropos. I have a great _deal_ of trouble with the idea that it should be imposed because someone _else_ thinks its "better."


Heres a quick disclaimer:  Im not formally schooled in New Urbanism.
Im schooled in New Urbanism through OKC Talk and a lot of investigation Ive done from the links in the http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...m-library.html and some others.

First, if youre frustrated with my post (mostly TO: Plutonic Panda), you took it to heart when the tone I used was not directed at you, but rather at Plutonic Panda.  I would most definitely talk differently to him than I would to you.   I find his willful ignorance quite frustrating.  I cant imagine that we need/want/can afford the highways in his little McWorld.
Further, I agree with you whole-heartedly.  Ive NO desire to live in a residential cell or a dense urban environment at this time and Im quite satisfied that I have the option to not live there.
So, if the only part of my post that frustrated you was the bolded part, were golden.  You took personally something that was not intended for you.
If, on the other hand, you are in agreement with Plutonic Panda and cannot see that the design principles of New Urbanism are NOT to make everything urban, then maybe youre frustrated that you havent done any real investigation into New Urbanism, that youre reacting to the title of the design principles rather than the principles, themselves.  New Urbanism does not mandate a quasi-urban-jungle.  Perhaps its the inclusion of the word "urban" in the accepted name of the line of thinking that you think you oppose that is the problem.  Perhaps its the fact that "New Urbanists" get all starry-eyed (scarily so) and/or argumentative when discussing new or existing structures and how they adhere to design principles that is the problem.  Perhaps its the fact that these worshiping or public shaming exhibitions mostly take place in reaction to urban structures (but that's where the "battle" is more important) is the problem -- but New Urbanism design principles apply to suburban plots, as well (it's just not as critical and easier to fix, as a rule).
I know youre a long-time participant to OKC Talk.  I like the posts Ive read of yours and value your opinion (especially in regards to education in Oklahoma).  I know youre not the FNG here (hello  4K posts!) and most OKC Talkers also respect your opinion, but Im sorry to say your frustration must stem from a bit of ignorance (note I did NOT say stupid).  Perhaps your ignorance is simply because you are uninterested.  I get it.  There are several threads that I simply dont comment on because of my ignorance and or lack of interest.  If, on the other hand, youre interested, you should take a look at a recent thread:  http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...-suburban.html.  I know you havent posted anything in that thread, so you might not be aware of some of that discussion.  One of the most interesting posts in there was



> Here are just a few of the differences between a New Urbanism suburb and a Euclidian suburb.
> 
> New Urbanism Suburb
> A) Connected street network
> B) Five minute pedestrian shed
> C) Mass transit accessible
> D) Open space consist of public square
> E) Parks and water are accessible and inviting
> F) Homes have uniform setback and front porches with living space at the front of the house to keep eyes on the street
> ...


See?  Its not really Urban .vs. Suburbs (pay no attention to the title of the thread this was taken from).  Its New Urban design .vs. Euclidian design (or worse yet:  New Urbanism design .vs.  NO design).



> Urban vs. suburban is a false question.
> 
> City/Town vs. Sprawl is the real question.
> 
> A city or town can offer suburban neighborhoods with nice homes and yards, as with most parts of Oklahoma built before 1930, and a few built up until the 1940s.
> 
> The difference is that cities and towns can provide those options:
> - Efficiently for better infrastructure
> - Without isolating social groups and land uses
> ...


SoonerDave, I hope I havent offended you.
I cant say the same thing about Plutonic Panda.

----------


## hoya

I grew up in a suburb that was built in the 40s.  When I was a kid, like maybe until I was 5 or 6 years old (probably around '83 or '84), there was a little corner store just two houses down.  I remember walking there with my mom and getting candy, or milk, or whatever.  I'm thinking there was a little old man who ran the store.  Anyway it went out of business a long time ago as the neighborhood declined.  What had been a nice little quiet neighborhood became kind of a dangerous place.

Newer suburbs have no option for things like the corner store.  I don't think there's anything wrong at all with wanting neighborhoods to have little parks, and corner stores, and sidewalks, and places to walk to.  The idea that an area should have a functional "Main Street" with stores and shops that people can easily walk to from their houses shouldn't be all that controversial.  That within a 5 minute walk of my house I should be able to eat at three or four restaurants, buy groceries, do some basic shopping, and have access to a transit system that takes me around the city -- this is pretty basic normal stuff.

----------


## hoya

Now, honestly, I don't know that south I-240 is the best place to pick to start implementing New Urbanism.  There's zero mass transportation there, and zero possibility for mass transportation.  I think our targeted areas for re-urbanization should be places that will be served by the future regional transit system.  That's not here.  Once this type of development is more common and more accepted by people in OKC, then we might look at expanding it to other places.

----------


## baralheia

hoyasooner, I wouldn't say there's _no_ mass transit available through the I-240 corridor... Though there isn't a _dedicated_ local loop, EMBARK route 13 (S Western/I-240 Crosstown) does serve the I-240 corridor from OCCC to the Walmart at Santa Fe at 30-minute intervals.

If they want to get serious about revitalizing the I-240 corridor, one of the first things they need is to establish a Mini-Hub for EMBARK somewhere along or just south of I-240. This would then support a true local loop down here, as well as provide an interchange point for regional operations down to the Moore and/or Norman area(s) - as rail is not our only option for regional transit (nor should it be).

----------


## SoonerDave

> Heres a quick disclaimer:  Im not formally schooled in New Urbanism.
> Im schooled in New Urbanism through OKC Talk and a lot of investigation Ive done from the links in the http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...m-library.html and some others.
> 
> First, if youre frustrated with my post (mostly TO: Plutonic Panda), you took it to heart when the tone I used was not directed at you, but rather at Plutonic Panda.  I would most definitely talk differently to him than I would to you.   I find his willful ignorance quite frustrating.  I cant imagine that we need/want/can afford the highways in his little McWorld.
> Further, I agree with you whole-heartedly.  Ive NO desire to live in a residential cell or a dense urban environment at this time and Im quite satisfied that I have the option to not live there.
> So, if the only part of my post that frustrated you was the bolded part, were golden.  You took personally something that was not intended for you.
> If, on the other hand, you are in agreement with Plutonic Panda and cannot see that the design principles of New Urbanism are NOT to make everything urban, then maybe youre frustrated that you havent done any real investigation into New Urbanism, that youre reacting to the title of the design principles rather than the principles, themselves.  New Urbanism does not mandate a quasi-urban-jungle.  Perhaps its the inclusion of the word "urban" in the accepted name of the line of thinking that you think you oppose that is the problem.  Perhaps its the fact that "New Urbanists" get all starry-eyed (scarily so) and/or argumentative when discussing new or existing structures and how they adhere to design principles that is the problem.  Perhaps its the fact that these worshiping or public shaming exhibitions mostly take place in reaction to urban structures (but that's where the "battle" is more important) is the problem -- but New Urbanism design principles apply to suburban plots, as well (it's just not as critical and easier to fix, as a rule).
> I know youre a long-time participant to OKC Talk.  I like the posts Ive read of yours and value your opinion (especially in regards to education in Oklahoma).  I know youre not the FNG here (hello  4K posts!) and most OKC Talkers also respect your opinion, but Im sorry to say your frustration must stem from a bit of ignorance (note I did NOT say stupid).  Perhaps your ignorance is simply because you are uninterested.  I get it.  There are several threads that I simply dont comment on because of my ignorance and or lack of interest.  If, on the other hand, youre interested, you should take a look at a recent thread:  http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...-suburban.html.  I know you havent posted anything in that thread, so you might not be aware of some of that discussion.  One of the most interesting posts in there was
> 
> ...


No problem, Dubya - we're all good. I had a lousy morning and hadn't hit the forums in a while, and that post just hit me the wrong way. It's all good. 

I'm all for smarter design, making better use of things. I admit I do get set back a bit these days with the phrase of "urbanism" because I do think there's a decent subculture that really wants to reinvent the world in that image, but I realize that's not a universal notion at all. Some of the notions, like garages on back alleys, sidewalks, etc etc have been tried in a hit-and-miss fashion in various neighborhoods - in fact I remember some of it being tried down in Moore some time ago. 

It's all a matter of balance. Like I said, there are no panaceas, just try as best we can to make things better. That's fine for me. Just don't try to stuff me into a 600 sq ft shoebox on the 40th floor somewhere  :Smile:

----------


## Just the facts

Why shouldn't the I-240 corridor be the best place to implement new urbanism? There are hundreds of examples from around the US where failed retail areas have been rebuilt which have gone on to be some of the most successful and sought after places to live, and generate enough tax revenue to pay for their own upkeep.

As for mass transit, I prefer neighborhood based bus service like baralheia mentioned.  On the Bus System thread I posted a route map that has a bus running within 3 blocks of every house within the OKC core with 15 minute intervals and it uses the exact same number of buses used today.

----------


## Dubya61

> On the Bus System thread I posted a route map that has a bus running within 3 blocks of every house within the OKC core with 15 minute intervals and it uses the exact same number of buses used today.


Rats.  That post no longer has images.  Do you still have those images saved somewhere?

----------


## Just the facts

> Rats.  That post no longer has images.  Do you still have those images saved somewhere?


Keep in mind this is just a proof of concept sketch.  Actual transit hubs and routes could be anywhere.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Why shouldn't the I-240 corridor be the best place to implement new urbanism? There are hundreds of examples from around the US* where failed retail areas have been rebuilt which have gone on to be some of the most successful and sought after places to live*, and generate enough tax revenue to pay for their own upkeep.


I guess why I'm a bit hesitant to suggest anything too drastic for the 240 corridor is that it _isn't_ a "failed retail area." I think we need to keep in mind a clear distinction between areas that are, in fact, failed, and those that perhaps aren't terribly _attractive,_ but are a far cry from _failed._ There are clearly some ugly spots, like the old Albertson's building on May, and the defunct-turned-police-station car lot near I-35, but that's very near the area of the interchange rebuild. The 240 Penn Park seems busy with its variety of stores and restaurants, and even the old Walnut Creek center isn't totally abandoned since Hobby Lobby took over the Homeland space. 

Just want to make sure we keep the idea of balance in place. Surgical strikes could do very well here.

----------


## bombermwc

I definitely agree SoonerDave....240 is far from being a failed area. It continues to attract business. if it didn't, we wouldn't have seen the old walmart torn out and turned into that (ug) strip center. We'd have an empty Krispy Kreme instead of an awesome The Garage. I don't count the old car lot since the state forced them out as part of the interchange construction buyout...the DMV is just using it until its time to doze it.

I'm not shy to point out the paving issues along the interstate, but I would like to see something to green up the space a bit as well. There isn't a lot of space to work with along the frontage at really any part of the road, but it would be nice to get some sort of greenery around. Trees or something (not Bradford Pear please). You can actually do a lot of visual good with simple things like Crepe Merdles (spelling?). Midwest City placed a huge number of them along the "wall" of I-40 on 29th toward the east end of Town Center and beyond. In a space that only has a few feet, it actually helps turn it into something very pretty in spring/summer as they all bud and you get a wall of color instead of industrial Tinker buildings.

The area doesn't really have an identity though either. Yeah it's heavily Hispanic, but really only north of 240 and that identity is more focused at Capital Hill. So I'm not sure if you could create an identity zone out of it (240-land or whatever lol). But is definitely a very unattractive and practical section of road.

----------


## tfvc.org

One thing that they should do is just about every intersection from May to Shields can be a SPUI.  If they were to do some quick simple light changes those intersections can move a lot more smoothly especially traffic going from Northbound to Westbound 240.

----------


## baralheia

Yeah, I would definitely agree that the I-240 corridor is not a "failed retail area" - the South OKC Chamber of Commerce has done somewhat well in this regard - but the area could still use some help with both commercial and residential zones. As mentioned before, Walnut Square, Shields Plaza, and the former Albertsons on May need some work, as do several apartment complexes along the highway. The highway itself needs tweaking done to the ramps and service roads, and some actual greenery along the road would be fantastic. I agree, some crepe myrtles mixed in with a few trees could look super nice. I don't know how maintenance intensive they are, however.

----------


## Spartan

> I definitely agree SoonerDave....240 is far from being a failed area. It continues to attract business. if it didn't, we wouldn't have seen the old walmart torn out and turned into that (ug) strip center. We'd have an empty Krispy Kreme instead of an awesome The Garage. *I don't count the old car lot since the state forced them out as part of the interchange construction buyout...the DMV is just using it until its time to doze it*.


That's still a problem spot though. A planning process may actually be particularly helpful in dealing with that situation. The state has had it for a decade..

As usual, the public sector is the worst building code and community aesthetic offender. People in OKC's public sector have very low aesthetic standards, don't understand the value of them, and they disregard what is best for the city by making land assembly as easy for themselves as possible. 

In this instance the state bought out the car dealership once its interchange plans were announced, because they didn't want land speculation to raise the land costs of the project before they even have funds in hand.

----------


## bombermwc

But if we know the building is going to be torn down, would you be happy as a tax payer if your money was used to spruce up an old car lot that was doomed in the next 10 years? I agree, it's utilitarian, but hey, that's how it was built by Fred Jones. The state hasn't done anything to it, good or bad, but they haven't let it fall to pieces or anything. The place was new enough, that even if they don't do anything, it's not exactly crumbling. The grounds are maintained, there aren't a bunch of grass/weeds growing in the parking lot, there aren't broken windows....it's just a plain white metal/stucco building.

Also keep in mind that the state only had OHP using it as a way-station for vehicles until the DMV moved in relatively recently from their overcrowded space at OHP Troop A (one building I actually would like to see dozed and rebuilt to bring it into this century).

----------


## Firefly831

Does anyone know what going on on 240 beside the 240 stril mall. Its like next to the shopping center and behind Golden COrral and Dennys and Canes. They seem to be moving dirt around.

----------


## Architect2010

> Does anyone know what going on on 240 beside the 240 stril mall. Its like next to the shopping center and behind Golden COrral and Dennys and Canes. They seem to be moving dirt around.


I saw an application in the City Planning Department for something of this nature. They may rework the road a bit too, but it is for the eventual 102,000 sq. ft. expansion of 240 Penn Park. Which is the newish shopping center with BestBuy, Michael's, Old Navy, etc.

----------


## Pete

^

Right.  Conn's is actually moving into a bigger space and then they are building loads of spec space:

----------


## catch22

Glad to see Phase 2 progress. Last time I drove through there a few months ago I was wondering how long that would be vacant.

The airport really is missing the game by taking ages to get their retail project on the east side of the airport going. Pretty soon this stretch of 240 will be well saturated and there won't be a lot of big name tenants left to draw to anchor the airport project.

Speaking of, that is the slowest dang project I have ever seen. They have been talking about it for probably close to 10 years now. It has taken 5+ years just to get 1 mile of the new Portland alignment completed. They still have another mile to go and it hasn't even started! Amazing!

----------


## bombermwc

Im surprised Conns is doing that well. It will be interesting to see what they can get to move into the other space. The tough part about this location, is that it's not visible from the interstate. All of the frontage eateries take up the view.

----------


## Zuplar

So is something going into where the old Conn's was? I hate to see one strip mall picked over for another.

----------


## Pete

> So is something going into where the old Conn's was? I hate to see one strip mall picked over for another.


Their existing space is currently listed for lease.  I'm sure they'll find someone to take it.

----------


## White Peacock

> Their existing space is currently listed for lease.  I'm sure they'll find someone to take it.


I vote for Service Merchandise.

----------


## Kemotblue

Pete I was looking at the drawing. The larger retail on the oposite end of Conn's in the photo it looks like a Cost Plus World Market.

----------


## bombermwc

> Pete I was looking at the drawing. The larger retail on the oposite end of Conn's in the photo it looks like a Cost Plus World Market.


NO WAY!!!! If that's true, I'm going to kiss you!!!!

----------


## baralheia

This is looking great! I can't wait to see the old Albertsons at 240 and May come back to life too - albeit for now, just an OnCue on the pad site fronting 240 - and with any luck, someone will develop the empty lot on the NE corner of 240 and Santa Fe.

----------


## Architect2010

> Im surprised Conns is doing that well. It will be interesting to see what they can get to move into the other space. The tough part about this location, is that it's not visible from the interstate. All of the frontage eateries take up the view.


It's actually not going to be setback much further than it's current location, which is also covered by Hooters, Old Chicago, Gas Station, Fedex Kinkos, and Wright Career College. I would assume that's why the massing is so large in the front, so they can get their name up high on the building for visibility. 

I wouldn't be worried about the empty space Conn's will leave either, I remember 5-8 years ago when that particular shopping center was DEAD. Now it's completely full. It seemed to happen really fast too after 240 Penn Park, although it could definitely benefit from a reconfiguration, or a the very least, a repaving of the parking lot and some landscaping.

----------


## bombermwc

True 'dat Architect. I did notice dirt work was being done there when I went to Green Acres yesterday. So looks like it's moving along....not that there was much dirt work to do since it was flat, but there are already boards out to mark the foundation outline.

----------


## SoonerDave

> This is looking great! I can't wait to see the old Albertsons at 240 and May come back to life too - albeit for now, just an OnCue on the pad site fronting 240 - and with any luck, someone will develop the empty lot on the NE corner of 240 and Santa Fe.


Okay, I'll bite - are you talking about a "real" OnCue coming to that location, or are you just *wishing* for one? I really can't tell. Not trying to be sarcastic - an OnCue there would be a winner.  That old Albertsons's site is an eyesore - it needs help.

----------


## baralheia

To the best of my knowledge, it's in the works... Pete posted that in the OnCue OKC Expansion thread. I'm pretty sure nothing is official on that spot though... At least not yet.

As for the old Albertsons there at I-240 and May, here's what the developer wants to do with it:




According to Pete: "Land Run is subdividing the old Homeland property, adding a retail strip along May and sub-dividing the old grocery store." He thinks the OnCue would go in place of the two proposed buildings fronting I-240.

The subdivision and renovation of the main building is probably waiting for Wild Bill's Furniture, Fixtures, and Equipment's lease to run out.

----------


## SoonerDave

> To the best of my knowledge, it's in the works... Pete posted that in the OnCue OKC Expansion thread. I'm pretty sure nothing is official on that spot though... At least not yet.
> 
> As for the old Albertsons there at I-240 and May, here's what the developer wants to do with it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to Pete: "Land Run is subdividing the old Homeland property, adding a retail strip along May and sub-dividing the old grocery store." He thinks the OnCue would go in place of the two proposed buildings fronting I-240.
> 
> The subdivision and renovation of the main building is probably waiting for Wild Bill's Furniture, Fixtures, and Equipment's lease to run out.


Looks a lot like what they did with the old Albertson's space on SW 104th and Western about 10 years ago or thereabouts. Gotta admit, anything with that old box at that location would be an improvement! Great to hear its on tap.

----------


## Dubya61

It looks like the OnCue at I-240 and Sooner Road is now open.

----------


## Pete

The Olive Garden off I-240 is set for a major remodel.

Building permit just submitted.

----------


## Tavia

Mowing along the service roads would go along way......looks awful!

----------


## SouthSide

The Envision 240 group announced earlier this year that a contract had been signed for another group (county I think ) to take on the mowing and the underpasses were to be painted.  The pace at which this revitalization plan is progressing is frustrating.

----------


## bombermwc

forget mowing....re-pave the freaking frontage roads already!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## catch22

> forget mowing....re-pave the freaking frontage roads already!!!!!!!!!!!


I seem to recall they did that about 2 years ago. 

I do admit, the potholes returned very quickly. 

How often should it be repaved and how do you suggest we pay for it?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

They need to be reconstructed in cement and done right then you wouldn't need to replace them for 30 years or more

----------


## Architect2010

> I seem to recall they did that about 2 years ago. 
> 
> I do admit, the potholes returned very quickly. 
> 
> How often should it be repaved and how do you suggest we pay for it?


It was only the service road(s) (maybe only the north side) between Penn and May and they're still smooth, until you come up on the May intersections where old asphalt still remains. Although they have concreted a small portion of the right turn lane on the Westbound service road at May, right in front of Jack In The Box.

----------


## bombermwc

Yeah, they only did the section west of Penn up to May...the totally ignored the whole rest of the section between Penn and 35. You know, the part that has the MOST traffic.

----------


## SouthSide

Does anyone know if the Envision 240 effort is still active?

----------


## bombermwc

Doesn't seem like it. They stopped and didn't do any of the pavement projects on the frontage roads that could actually use it. Really the intersections need to be converted to concrete. There are a lot of opportunities for landscaping in the grassy areas of 240 to help brighten the strip up....even some crepe myrtles can add color to a gloomy stretch and take zero effort to maintain. I feel like the city basically gave up before they really ever started. All i can say is that hopefully this pavement project with the maps extension will help look at the roads. And 240/35/Shields access is going to be all jacked up after the junction is done, hopefully they can look at something to do to help with that.

----------


## SouthSide

At one time they did have some plantings but the city or ODOT (not sure which) wanted the South OKC Chamber to pay for the maintenance.  I really wish  OKC would let South OKC go to either become its own city or part of Moore since they have no interest in investing in this area.

----------


## Goon

> I really wish  OKC would let South OKC go to either become its own city or part of Moore since they have no interest in investing in this area.


Exactly. Whether it be urban sprawl or whatever, having a more focused say in the growth of the area where I spend literally 99% of my time would be nice for the thousands of us who live there.

----------


## Zuplar

> At one time they did have some plantings but the city or ODOT (not sure which) wanted the South OKC Chamber to pay for the maintenance.  I really wish  OKC would let South OKC go to either become its own city or part of Moore since they have no interest in investing in this area.


Definitely not a terrible idea. At the very least it would probably get mowed which would be an improvement.

Not sure if I'd fit into this area, but I'm really close. The chamber should start a petition for the southside to secede, lol.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Exactly. Whether it be urban sprawl or whatever, having a more focused say in the growth of the area where I spend literally 99% of my time would be nice for the thousands of us who live there.


And give up all the sales tax revenue generated in the area? Not a chance. And let me tell you this...it is going to get worse before it gets better. There's a "hate the suburbs" vibe in city gov't right now. They're glad to parasite off our sales tax revenue but beyond that we're viewed as a pariah. As an example...city wasn't nuts about the new WalMart at I-44 and SW 104th, but they were advised how much sales tax revenue was being lost by shoppers hopping on I-44 and tripping down to TriCity and the WalMart down there. So in it went. Yet the city won't do anything but this minimalist traffic control setup for what's sure to be a traffic nightmare at that location once it opens....argh...

----------


## Goon

> And give up all the sales tax revenue generated in the area? Not a chance. And let me tell you this...it is going to get worse before it gets better. There's a "hate the suburbs" vibe in city gov't right now. They're glad to parasite off our sales tax revenue but beyond that we're viewed as a pariah. As an example...city wasn't nuts about the new WalMart at I-44 and SW 104th, but they were advised how much sales tax revenue was being lost by shoppers hopping on I-44 and tripping down to TriCity and the WalMart down there. So in it went. Yet the city won't do anything but this minimalist traffic control setup for what's sure to be a traffic nightmare at that location once it opens....argh...


Well put. 

And that Wal-Mart is across the highway from (what looks to me like) a replica of the renovated Norman area around the super Target...but still sits empty. I actually come to this board about 99% of the time hoping to see Pete announce a new development out there.  My hope is that the Wal-Mart at least sparks an interest in the area...would love to see a BWW, Chipolte,Starbucks.etc in the not-too-distant future.

----------


## Zuplar

> Well put. 
> 
> And that Wal-Mart is across the highway from (what looks to me like) a replica of the renovated Norman area around the super Target...but still sits empty. I actually come to this board about 99% of the time hoping to see Pete announce a new development out there.  My hope is that the Wal-Mart at least sparks an interest in the area...would love to see a BWW, Chipolte,Starbucks.etc in the not-too-distant future.


I really wonder if after they finish the last phase of the Portland realignment is when this area starts to get some tenants. Fingers crossed.

----------


## tfvc.org

> I really wonder if after they finish the last phase of the Portland realignment is when this area starts to get some tenants. Fingers crossed.


I drive down Portland from 89th to 104th about once a week or so and I see they are still working on infrastructure there, I don't think the area is quite ready for tenants yet.  The realignment will probably coincide with the readiness of the 89th to 104th section.

----------


## Goon

> I drive down Portland from 89th to 104th about once a week or so and I see they are still working on infrastructure there, I don't think the area is quite ready for tenants yet.  The realignment will probably coincide with the readiness of the 89th to 104th section.


Didn't know it was ongoing...thanks for the response. With SOKC's luck, the first tenant will be a wal-mart to pair with the one across the highway.

----------


## SoonerDave

> I drive down Portland from 89th to 104th about once a week or so and I see they are still working on infrastructure there, I don't think the area is quite ready for tenants yet.  The realignment will probably coincide with the readiness of the 89th to 104th section.


What infrastructure? I've driven that stretch several times and it looks to me like the most activity there its seen are drag races as evidenced by the wide, black tire skids at various locations. Light poles have been up and running since the street opened, storm drainage is in place...the grass is getting overgrown on the sides and I don't really see much activity of any kind, and the traffic lights at 104th and Portland have been up and operating for quite some time now.....

----------


## SOONER8693

> What infrastructure? I've driven that stretch several times and it looks to me like the most activity there its seen are drag races as evidenced by the wide, black tire skids at various locations. Light poles have been up and running since the street opened, storm drainage is in place...the grass is getting overgrown on the sides and I don't really see much activity of any kind, and the traffic lights at 104th and Portland have been up and operating for quite some time now.....


Ditto.

----------


## SouthSide

A small group townhouses are being built in this area on SW 74th and Sherwood. Bella Terra Lofts.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

This project should get maps 4 money.

----------

