# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  NW Expressway & Classen

## Pete

Over the last couple of years I've noticed a slew of demolition permits for a small stretch of 49th Street at the intersection of NW Expressway and Classen.

Further investigation shows the majority of properties on that block have been recently acquired by 49th Street Rentals LLC, which tracks back to Dusty Burchfield and Burchfield Commercial Real Estate.

Not sure what is planned here but obviously the property would have to be rezoned for anything other than single family homes.

Great corner...  Keep your eyes on it.

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## Teo9969

I would KILL for another high rise right here. Oh my God would I.

Downtown isn't going to win every business development, and if there's anywhere else other than downtown that I think would not be a total waste for that type of development, it would be right here.

Also Pete, this is technically Urban Core development...

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## LakeEffect

> I would KILL for another high rise right here. Oh my God would I.
> 
> Downtown isn't going to win every business development, and if there's anywhere else other than downtown that I think would not be a total waste for that type of development, it would be right here.
> 
> Also Pete, this is technically Urban Core development...


Heck no. No high rise here. It is far too close to the existing single family neighborhood. Maybe a good spot to highlight 3 story mixed use that integrates well into the neighborhood, but in no way should a high rise go here.

The next best place for high rise development would be an extension of the core in Core to Shore. See http://www.batesline.com/archives/20...velopment.html

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## Plutonic Panda

> Heck no. No high rise here. It is far too close to the existing single family neighborhood. Maybe a good spot to highlight 3 story mixed use that integrates well into the neighborhood, but in no way should a high rise go here.


i think this would make an awesome place for a high rise

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## LakeEffect

> i think this would make an awesome place for a high rise


Why? Explain more.

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## bchris02

Yeah another high rise on NW Expressway will likely face significant NIMBY opposition. I wouldn't mind seeing 10-15 story glass office buildings though. Either that or a true lifestyle center anchored by H&M or Belk. I think it could be a great compliment to Penn Square Mall which is a very small mall as far as malls go.

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## DoctorTaco

> Heck no. No high rise here. It is far too close to the existing single family neighborhood. Maybe a good spot to highlight 3 story mixed use that integrates well into the neighborhood, but in no way should a high rise go here.



My cynical prediction is suburban-style strip mall completely seperated (by a high wall, say) from the surrounding single-family homes. This spot is over a quarter mile from a CVS/Walgreens, so that is a safe bet. I just hope it turns out as a CVS/Starbucks/Chipotle and not a CVS/Dollar General.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Why? Explain more.


i think it would look really cool there. Sure one could look cool elsewhere, but I wouldn't be opposed to one here at all

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## Spartan

Whatever the project is it will have to justify prohibitively high land assembly costs. So probably office.

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## Teo9969

The absolute main reason why is because it would be another high-rise to view from my porch. Love sitting out smoking a cigar and staring at Valliance...Although, maybe another high rise would block Valliance :-O.

I don't pretend to think that's going to happen, but I do think a 10 to 15 story building would be a really good deal here. Would be a great place for a large facility, and surely, with the amount of land it looks like this developer will be amassing, it is going to be such. It's certainly not big enough for a big strip center with a sea of parking.

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## Plutonic Panda

I would like to see some of the developments North Dallas is getting(like the State Farm Regional Facility in Plano. HALF A BILLION DOLLARS!!!!! It is huge and I think it tops out somewhere in the 15-20 stories range although most is shorter. I'll see if I can find a rendering) and place them along NW Expressway, C2S and hopefully Memorial and Penn will someday be widened to 6 lane roads and we will see huge infill projects like the regional manufacturing and managing complexes N Dallas seems to be getting announced on a weekly basis.


I would love to see the GE research facility in C2S. That would jump start that area like no other and might get us something like the C2S renderings.

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## mugofbeer

1) What kind of vacancy rates are there in the NW burbs and

2) Maybe is in prep for some sort of expansion/interchange of Classen and NW Hiway to make it more high speed?

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## Chicken In The Rough

This area has been ideal for a scrape 'n build for years.

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## bchris02

> The absolute main reason why is because it would be another high-rise to view from my porch. Love sitting out smoking a cigar and staring at Valliance...Although, maybe another high rise would block Valliance :-O.
> 
> I don't pretend to think that's going to happen, but I do think a 10 to 15 story building would be a really good deal here. Would be a great place for a large facility, and surely, with the amount of land it looks like this developer will be amassing, it is going to be such. It's certainly not big enough for a big strip center with a sea of parking.


Belle Isle was supposed to have several 10-20 story towers in its original plan before it became a Wal-Mart Supercenter.

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## Rover

Interesting.  Who was doing that development with multiple towers and why didn't they proceed?  Guess I had missed that proposal.  All the office I saw proposed was the residential style offices that are there between the shops and the cemetery.

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## Spartan

> Interesting.  Who was doing that development with multiple towers and why didn't they proceed?  Guess I had missed that proposal.  All the office I saw proposed was the residential style offices that are there between the shops and the cemetery.


And don't forget Pearl's Graveside.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Belle Isle was supposed to have several 10-20 story towers in its original plan before it became a Wal-Mart Supercenter.


do you know that never happened???? That area would be so much cooler. I love this, but man sometimes I think of it could be today and I just shake my head.

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## Spartan

It was an epically botched urban development. We don't even talk about it.

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## ljbab728

> It was an epically botched urban development. We don't even talk about it.


Thunder, I don't think it was ever intended to be an "urban development".  That term wasn't even talked about much at the time.  It just didn't happen as was originally presented.

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## Teo9969

Even with towers, it likely wouldn't have been particularly urban. The area where Wal-Mart currently rests would have been a great area for a lifestyle center and some 10 to 20 story towers, both residential and office, with a variety of entertainment and shopping options, not to mention the Mall being right there. The location is unparalleled  on the NW side...It really is .the connection between the core and the NW burbs...you can get anywhere in the city in 20 minutes or les.

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## OKCTalker

I hope they don't allow ingress/egress onto NWX from any point except Independence. Eastbound traffic on NWX moves smoothly and quickly right now, and any curb cut will cause problems (and likely require acceleration/deceleration lanes).

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## Rover

> Even with towers, it likely wouldn't have been particularly urban. The area where Wal-Mart currently rests would have been a great area for a lifestyle center and some 10 to 20 story towers, both residential and office, with a variety of entertainment and shopping options, not to mention the Mall being right there. The location is unparalleled  on the NW side...It really is .the connection between the core and the NW burbs...you can get anywhere in the city in 20 minutes or les.


Lifestyle centers haven't been a popular concept here.  Actually, Aubrey was working towards it at 63rd and Western area.  And, one was blocked at 36th and Bway Extension.  Until the urbanized lifestyle is shown and adopted here, downtown is the best and seemingly only area where it is totally embraced.  As people see the value in it they will be more understanding and accepting of the quasi urban suburban life centers.  But, rather than artificially create one, I think they will come from places like Capitol Hill, Britton, Bethany, 63rd, and May, etc., where there is already a concentration of people and business.  While I agree Belle Isle would have been a great location for one, I don't really think one was ever planned for.

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## bluedogok

Has the land where Horn Seed was been sold yet? I saw it on a Loop Net listing even before David closed the store down. That could make an interesting mid-rise type of development with the properties between Pearl's and the hotels.

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## mugofbeer

> Lifestyle centers haven't been a popular concept here.  Actually, Aubrey was working towards it at 63rd and Western area.  And, one was blocked at 36th and Bway Extension.  Until the urbanized lifestyle is shown and adopted here, downtown is the best and seemingly only area where it is totally embraced.  As people see the value in it they will be more understanding and accepting of the quasi urban suburban life centers.  But, rather than artificially create one, I think they will come from places like Capitol Hill, Britton, Bethany, 63rd, and May, etc., where there is already a concentration of people and business.  While I agree Belle Isle would have been a great location for one, I don't really think one was ever planned for.


Wish someone would replace Shepherd Mall with one.

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## bchris02

It may not have been urban, but it would have been 100x better than a Wal-Mart.  Here is what was originally planned.  It even took into account the old power plant and saved it.

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## bchris02

> Lifestyle centers haven't been a popular concept here.  Actually, Aubrey was working towards it at 63rd and Western area.  And, one was blocked at 36th and Bway Extension.  Until the urbanized lifestyle is shown and adopted here, downtown is the best and seemingly only area where it is totally embraced.  As people see the value in it they will be more understanding and accepting of the quasi urban suburban life centers.  But, rather than artificially create one, I think they will come from places like Capitol Hill, Britton, Bethany, 63rd, and May, etc., where there is already a concentration of people and business.  While I agree Belle Isle would have been a great location for one, I don't really think one was ever planned for.


What makes OKC different from smaller markets like Wichita, Tulsa, Little Rock, etc that have all embraced the lifestyle center concept?  That's not even considering what similar-sized cities have.  Memphis, Louisville, Birmingham, Charlotte, etc have lifestyle center developments that are but a pipe dream in OKC.  Personally, I don't think its OKC's fault for not embracing that type of development, but its developers' fault for not getting anything proposed until shortly before the 2008 crash, which of course resulted in the proposed projects being cancelled.  Lifestyle centers aren't being built in the numbers they were built before 2008 anywhere.  I wonder if maybe OKC missed its chance to ever have a real one.

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## bluedogok

I agree, it isn't that OKC won't accept them. The big issue is most developers don't want to do anything more than the bare minimum. I worked in The Domain for two and a half years, while a horrible layout there is no reason why it couldn't work in OKC.

As far as that proposal for Belle Isle, there were many proposals to save the power plant but without major assistance on the remediation of the power plant any kind of project was not feasible. When I was at Benham I worked on potential plans for Benham buying the facility and moving our offices over there, excluding environmental remediation it was feasible. The only reason why the Seaholm Plant redevelopment in Austin is working is because the City of Austin and the city owned utility paid for the remediation before development started. That option wasn't present for Belle Isle as it was not owned by the city and OG+E had sold it many years prior.

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## Chicken In The Rough

Belle Isle would have made a spectacular REI. Pity.

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## bchris02

> Belle Isle would have made a spectacular REI. Pity.


Honestly in my opinion, Belle Isle was the biggest recent wasted opportunity in OKC development that I am aware of.  Virtually anything else would have been better for that location than a Wal-Mart.  Not developing it at all would have been better.  Development like this is what has long contributed to the lower standard of living in OKC as compared to other cities similar sized and even smaller.  Hopefully the recent opposition to the Springhill Suites signals things have changed in this city and people will no longer let developers give this market their scraps.

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## Spartan

> Honestly in my opinion, Belle Isle was the biggest recent wasted opportunity in OKC development that I am aware of.  Virtually anything else would have been better for that location than a Wal-Mart.  Not developing it at all would have been better.  Development like this is what has long contributed to the lower standard of living in OKC as compared to other cities similar sized and even smaller.  Hopefully the recent opposition to the Springhill Suites signals things have changed in this city and people will no longer let developers give this market their scraps.


That was also the beginning of a dark age in which Wal Mart was officially using OKC as their test market, because nowhere else did they have such a huge chunk of market share. OKC's retail and development progress should really be viewed based on how dominant WM still is. Real progress may include even closing a super center or two.

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## Teo9969

> That was also the beginning of a dark age in which Wal Mart was officially using OKC as their test market, because nowhere else did they have such a huge chunk of market share. OKC's retail and development progress should really be viewed based on how dominant WM still is. Real progress may include even closing a super center or two.


Starting with Belle Isle...

And I shop there all the time, so it's not like someone could accuse me of being anti wal-mart.

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## Urbanized

I'm no fan of either Wal-Mart or that development, but you know that store is surely one of the top-performing (if not THE top-performing) units in the metro, right? Do you really think the owners of a wildly (commercially) successful development will be tearing it down soon because they'll start wishing it had been built better? With MASSIVE swaths of undeveloped and underdeveloped land all over the city, if they suddenly get an itch to "do things right" do you think they might not instead do it elsewhere and let that development keep happily flowing rivers of cash? Do you honestly believe that Wal-Mart will close and/or move from a hugely profitable location because they are concerned that they might have created a blight on the neighborhood?

It's completely fair to look at that development as a learning experience for the city, and to use it as an example of what we should strive to do better than in the future. But the bulldozer fantasies we have on this board sometimes are so greatly-disconnected from reality, economics and the business world that it causes a loss of credibility when posting other subjects.

Yeah, Belle Isle was completely disappointing, but probably only about 1 in 100 people in OKC knows this or cares. It makes mountains of cash. Hate it? OK. But don't waste your time hoping for it to be gone anytime soon.

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## onthestrip

Regarding the SW corner of Expressway and Classen, expect retail. The folks behind it are retail people. I imagine they still have some acquiring to do to have enough land to develop a decent project.

And we all know that Belle Isle sucks. Sure it was a probably easier deal for the developers to do a wal mart there but with a little more effort it could easily have been the upscale lifestyle center we have been craving.

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## OKCTalker

> Has the land where Horn Seed was been sold yet? I saw it on a Loop Net listing even before David closed the store down. That could make an interesting mid-rise type of development with the properties between Pearl's and the hotels.


John Kennedy, Irish Realty. Experience with shopping center development, First National Center & Waterford among other things.

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## bchris02

> I'm no fan of either Wal-Mart or that development, but you know that store is surely one of the top-performing (if not THE top-performing) units in the metro, right? Do you really think the owners of a wildly (commercially) successful development will be tearing it down soon because they'll start wishing it had been built better? With MASSIVE swaths of undeveloped and underdeveloped land all over the city, if they suddenly get an itch to "do things right" do you think they might not instead do it elsewhere and let that development keep happily flowing rivers of cash? Do you honestly believe that Wal-Mart will close and/or move from a hugely profitable location because they are concerned that they might have created a blight on the neighborhood?
> 
> It's completely fair to look at that development as a learning experience for the city, and to use it as an example of what we should strive to do better than in the future. But the bulldozer fantasies we have on this board sometimes are so greatly-disconnected from reality, economics and the business world that it causes a loss of credibility when posting other subjects.
> 
> Yeah, Belle Isle was completely disappointing, but probably only about 1 in 100 people in OKC knows this or cares. It makes mountains of cash. Hate it? OK. But don't waste your time hoping for it to be gone anytime soon.


Correct. The Belle Isle Wal-Mart has to be one of the top performing in the metro area. It's not going anywhere. Belle Isle was a catastrophic wasted opportunity and should be an example of what not to do with prime real estate going forward, but its there now and successful. Hopefully this new development brings with it a higher standard than Belle Isle.

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## adaniel

> Regarding the SW corner of Expressway and Classen, expect retail. The folks behind it are retail people. I imagine they still have some acquiring to do to have enough land to develop a decent project.
> 
> And we all know that Belle Isle sucks. Sure it was a probably easier deal for the developers to do a wal mart there but with a little more effort it could easily have been the upscale lifestyle center we have been craving.


Good to hear. I guess I'll take the minority opinion and say the Northwest Expressway corridor is not ready for spec office space. It's doing well, but there still is quite a bit of open space in some of those buildings. 

As far as Belle Isle is concerned, yeah its very meh but I can't bust it too hard since it's no different from any other "power center" in this area. The Wal Mart is terrible and detracts from the entire center, but the other stores are usually well kept. The Nordstrom Rack won't be a game changer, but will hopefully inspire them to step it up a little. 

If we want to talk about "lost opportunities", take issue with the owners of 50 Penn and Classen Curve. Those were supposed to be the properties that were to cater to upscale stores in that area from the get go. Their record has been less than stellar.

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## bchris02

^^^ I have a feeling Classen Curve is about to come together now that they are opening it up to chains. At first they wanted to keep it entirely local and in my opinion that killed the center. Chain stores, like them or not, are what creates draw.

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## Patrick

> Lifestyle centers haven't been a popular concept here.  Actually, Aubrey was working towards it at 63rd and Western area.  And, one was blocked at 36th and Bway Extension.  Until the urbanized lifestyle is shown and adopted here, downtown is the best and seemingly only area where it is totally embraced.  As people see the value in it they will be more understanding and accepting of the quasi urban suburban life centers.  But, rather than artificially create one, I think they will come from places like Capitol Hill, Britton, Bethany, 63rd, and May, etc., where there is already a concentration of people and business.  While I agree Belle Isle would have been a great location for one, I don't really think one was ever planned for.


I don't know if I agree with this.  The Outlet shoppes is an outdoor lifestyle center. Classen Curve is an outdoor lifestyle center.  Spring Creek Plaza and Spring Creek Village in Edmond are upscale lifestyle centers. Your outdoor shopping centers like Quail Springs MarketPlace and Belle Isle Station are outdoor strip centers.Then you have all of the new lifestyle centers in Moore (Riverwalk crossing) and the new one in Norman.

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## Urbanized

How are either of those lifestyle centers, exactly, as opposed to strip retail centers? Nicer finish and more upscale mix, no doubt. But my understanding of lifestyle centers is that they usually include housing and are set up so that some people (residents or guests at a hotel, if included in the development) can interact  with them much like urban residents connect with their own environments. Those places, while obviously nicer, are still just shopping centers.

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## bchris02

Spring Creek is a "tiny" lifestyle center. Classen Curve and the Outlet Mall are not though.

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## edcrunk

I guess I'm an A-hole cuz I'm glad Walmart is right where it's at. It's very convenient.

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## Rover

> I don't know if I agree with this.  The Outlet shoppes is an outdoor lifestyle center. Classen Curve is an outdoor lifestyle center.  Spring Creek Plaza and Spring Creek Village in Edmond are upscale lifestyle centers. Your outdoor shopping centers like Quail Springs MarketPlace and Belle Isle Station are outdoor strip centers.Then you have all of the new lifestyle centers in Moore (Riverwalk crossing) and the new one in Norman.


Lifestyle centers are not the same as shopping centers.  And those areas you mention are not designed like lifestyle centers even in their retail areas.  They are just shopping centers.  Big difference.  OKC has no lifestyle centers, in any way.

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## bchris02

> I guess I'm an A-hole cuz I'm glad Walmart is right where it's at. It's very convenient.


Convenience is nice, but there is a Wal-Mart at virtually every major intersection in this town. Belle Isle was the perfect location for something unique and special.

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## RodH

> ^^^ I have a feeling Classen Curve is about to come together now that they are opening it up to chains. At first they wanted to keep it entirely local and in my opinion that killed the center. Chain stores, like them or not, are what creates draw.


Including Wal-Mart.

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## Patrick

My bad.  I thought you were referring to basically an outdoor shopping mall, which is what some mean when they refer to lifestyle centers these days.  Tuscana was planned to be a lifestyle center, but the recession of 2008 killed it.

The downtown areas like Bricktown, Midtown, and Deep Deuce are about as close as we get to a lifestyle center.

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## Plutonic Panda

A Walmart being there is fine. It would be better if they cut that parking lot in half and built more store, face lifted the Walmart, put 30 stories on top of it, expand that parking garage by PS and reduce that parking lot to add more store there, ect. I have no problem with the Walmart being there, they could make it look nicer though.

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## bluedogok

I was not happy a Walmart went in there but they were the ones to make a redevelopment work. The amazing thing is Walmart really didn't have much of an OKC presence until the mid to late 80's.

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## Rover

> I was not happy a Walmart went in there but they were the ones to make a redevelopment work. The amazing thing is Walmart really didn't have much of an OKC presence until the mid to late 80's.


Walmart wasn't in large cities until that time.  Their strategic focus was on being the big retailer and dominant in small cities.

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## bchris02

> Walmart wasn't in large cities until that time.  Their strategic focus was on being the big retailer and dominant in small cities.


Wal-Mart has done many small towns even worse than they have OKC.  Wal-Mart's strategy in the early 90s was to come into small towns and run out all competition entirely, becoming the only place to shop.  When I lived in Central Missouri, the saying used to be "If Wal-Mart doesn't have it, you're out of luck."   They succeeded in many towns.  Many small town main streets are boarded up to this day as a result of Wal-Mart.  On the positive side, there are many big box chains that follow Wal-Mart and open wherever they do, so many small towns today have chain stores they would never have had if not for Wal-Mart.

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## bluedogok

In this part of the country Walmart started out in the smaller towns in the 70's before moving into the larger cities in the 80's.

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## Spartan

> I'm no fan of either Wal-Mart or that development, but you know that store is surely one of the top-performing (if not THE top-performing) units in the metro, right? Do you really think the owners of a wildly (commercially) successful development will be tearing it down soon because they'll start wishing it had been built better? With MASSIVE swaths of undeveloped and underdeveloped land all over the city, if they suddenly get an itch to "do things right" do you think they might not instead do it elsewhere and let that development keep happily flowing rivers of cash? Do you honestly believe that Wal-Mart will close and/or move from a hugely profitable location because they are concerned that they might have created a blight on the neighborhood?
> 
> It's completely fair to look at that development as a learning experience for the city, and to use it as an example of what we should strive to do better than in the future. But the bulldozer fantasies we have on this board sometimes are so greatly-disconnected from reality, economics and the business world that it causes a loss of credibility when posting other subjects.
> 
> Yeah, Belle Isle was completely disappointing, but probably only about 1 in 100 people in OKC knows this or cares. It makes mountains of cash. Hate it? OK. But don't waste your time hoping for it to be gone anytime soon.


THIS. The development review process is all you have. Reality is that once something is built, it's built.mi hate when people say, well we can always fix it later..

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## Spartan

> Spring Creek is a "tiny" lifestyle center. Classen Curve and the Outlet Mall are not though.


CC could easily be turned into one...

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## Rover

> Spring Creek is a "tiny" lifestyle center. Classen Curve and the Outlet Mall are not though.


Spring Creek has no "living" part to it.  It is shops surrounding a parking lot.

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## bchris02

> Spring Creek has no "living" part to it.  It is shops surrounding a parking lot.


Many lifestyle centers in other cities, such as Pinnacle Hills for instance in Rogers, AR, do not have residential.  Neither of the Little Rock lifestyle centers have residential.  In my opinion, that isn't a requirement for it to be a lifestyle center, but it definitely is a nice amenity.  Spring Creek is tiny compared to those developments but it does have the feel of a lifestyle center, and is the only place in metro OKC that does.

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## Spartan

Little Rock has lifestyle centers?

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## bchris02

> Little Rock has lifestyle centers?


Yes, unless your criteria for lifestyle center is that residential must be part of the development.  If not, it has two of them, both putting most OKC development to shame.

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## foodiefan

not trying to be snarky, I"m asking a serious question. . .I've never really understood the "life style" concept as "talked about" in the metro area.  Before Penn Square was enclosed, would it have been considered a "life style center".   The ones without residential/walk-ability just seen to me to be new style "strip malls"/"shopping centers". . albiet very nice ones (i.e. Spring Creek, CC, Utica Square. . .although it is not new).

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## bchris02

> not trying to be snarky, I"m asking a serious question. . .I've never really understood the "life style" concept as "talked about" in the metro area.  Before Penn Square was enclosed, would it have been considered a "life style center".   The ones without residential/walk-ability just seen to me to be new style "strip malls"/"shopping centers". . albiet very nice ones (i.e. Spring Creek, CC, Utica Square. . .although it is not new).


You are right. A lot of urbanists criticized lifestyle centers as being basically glorified strip malls. I can see their point, but in my opinion if you are going to do suburbia, do it with dignity and the lifestyle center is really the best way to do that.

As far as true lifestyle centers with upscale retail and dining on the first floor and a few floors of residential on top, Charlotte has too many to count.

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## Spartan

> Yes, unless your criteria for lifestyle center is that residential must be part of the development.  If not, it has two of them, both putting most OKC development to shame.


Okay lol, show us these lifestyle centers...

Edit: ...that put us to shame

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## bchris02

> Okay lol, show us these lifestyle centers...
> 
> Edit: ...that put us to shame


I can post pics later of some of the development there, but I do want to say the Little Rock developments really aren't much to write home about. However, compared to developments like Belle Isle they hit it out of the park. The problem is OKC developers always go for the absolute bare minimum in terms of architectural design.

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## Spartan

> I can post pics later of some of the development there, but I do want to say the Little Rock developments really aren't much to write home about. However, compared to developments like Belle Isle they hit it out of the park. The problem is OKC developers always go for the absolute bare minimum in terms of architectural design.


We have a lot more retail development here in OKC than just Belle Isle...

If anyone needs a new shirt, by the way, I'd recommend NW 16th (they've got about 4 cool shops) or N Broadway (which has about (5-6 clothing shops now). Most of my friends in OKC don't exactly wear Old Navy...

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## PhiAlpha

I would consider these two districts in suburban Houston lifestyle centers:

Sugar Land's Townsquare: Sugar Land Town Square | Sugar Land Shopping, Dining, & Events



And in the Woodlands, probably the nicest I've been to, a combination of the Town Centre, Market Street, and the Woodland's Waterway. It also incorporates the Woodland's Mall. These blow nearly all of the planned developments in OKC out of the water and in some ways has a leg up on Bricktown as it currently stands. The woodland's is an elaborate example, but there is no reason that Belle Isle couldn't have become a lite version of this and certainly no reason Edmond, which doesn't have much in the way of urban areas at all, or any suburb for that matter couldn't still build something like this. 

Home - Market Street The Woodlands
The Woodlands Commercial Development- Where Business Lives Well



Also, Montgomery Plaza on 7th St. in Ft. Worth is probably somewhat of a lifestyle center.

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## bchris02

^^^ Those developments look amazing. While I wouldn't expect OKC or even Tulsa to be able to support something of that caliber, we certainly could do better than Belle Isle. Unfortunately developers will never propose anything like that because they know they can get away with the bare minimum here. It would have been nice though to at least see something closer to that in lower Bricktown rather than more generic suburbia that completely ignores the canal.

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## Spartan

Everyone here knows what a lifestyle center is.... Y'all will just tempt Kerry to post a million pics of something in France that we should aspire to

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## bchris02

> Everyone here knows what a lifestyle center is.... Y'all will just tempt Kerry to post a million pics of something in France that we should aspire to


Its fun to dream and speculate, but we also need to be realistic.  Those extravagant developments in the Houston suburbs are far out of OKC's league.  Something like these would be more doable in OKC.

Promenade on Providence - Charlotte



Promenade at Chenal - Little Rock



Park Avenue - Little Rock (currently under construction)



Shopps of Saddle Creek - Memphis (could not find picture)

All would be a significant step above the existing retail centers while not too risky for this market.

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## Larry OKC

RE: lifestyle centers, would the development over there in front of the big box stores by Tinker qualify? I don't have pics but was surprised by the "main street" feel of it???

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## bchris02

> RE: lifestyle centers, would the development over there in front of the big box stores by Tinker qualify? I don't have pics but was surprised by the "main street" feel of it???


It, like Spring Creek, has a very small section of it that has a lifestyle center feel.  Overall that development is more of a power center, like Belle Isle, though done better.

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## Spartan

> It, like Spring Creek, has a very small section of it that has a lifestyle center feel.  Overall that development is more of a power center, like Belle Isle, though done better.


They're two separate developments, the MWC Towne Center Blvd was a separate phase from the strip mall, and actually, the lifestyle center there is now being expanded into the neighborhood behind it. It's a surprisingly nice project and it really underscores how backwards metro OKC retail development is that MWC has the first lifestyle center.

If your land of milk and honey in Little Rock is surrounded by strip malls as well or pad sites then it is the exact same thing.

Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck. The outlet mall, which isnt a lifestyle center IMO but is at least as much as these Arkansas digs, is a step forward but that's a separate market that pulls from out of state. We need more progressive retail developers, but once again, retail in OKC was eviscerated in the 90s by Walmart taking over like nowhere else and is still recovering now.

Maybe if Arkansas was as cannibalized as we were by their largest corporation they wouldn't have Pinnacle or Chenal unless it was a new WM format...

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## bchris02

> They're two separate developments, the MWC Towne Center Blvd was a separate phase from the strip mall, and actually, the lifestyle center there is now being expanded into the neighborhood behind it. It's a surprisingly nice project and it really underscores how backwards metro OKC retail development is that MWC has the first lifestyle center.
> 
> If your land of milk and honey in Little Rock is surrounded by strip malls as well or pad sites then it is the exact same thing.
> 
> Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck. The outlet mall, which isnt a lifestyle center IMO but is at least as much as these Arkansas digs, is a step forward but that's a separate market that pulls from out of state. We need more progressive retail developers, but once again, retail in OKC was eviscerated in the 90s by Walmart taking over like nowhere else and is still recovering now.
> 
> Maybe if Arkansas was as cannibalized as we were by their largest corporation they wouldn't have Pinnacle or Chenal unless it was a new WM format...


You are probably right.  OKC's entire retail problem can probably be traced back to the same root causes as to why there aren't very many nice grocery stores here.  Wal-Mart pretty much called all the retail shots during the 2000s when other cities were getting these nicer developments.  Nothing was built in OKC unless it was anchored by a Wal-Mart. By the time it looked like the corner was about to be turned in OKC, the 2008 recession hit and the few proposed developments, ones that would have completely changed retail here and brought us more on the level of peer cities, were cancelled.  There are signs of life but what OKC really needs is a slam dunk development that's nice enough to make retailers that have been holding out to give this market a second look.  I could be wrong, but I am not aware of such a development currently being in the works so OKC is likely SOL for the time being.

And Little Rock is by no means a retail 'Land of milk and honey.'  Retail there was terrible until just a few years ago but since the Promenade at Chenal, Midtowne Little Rock, and Pleasant Ridge Towne Center opened it has improved sevenfold, attracting many retailers who don't typically open in cities that small.  I would say its arguable whether they are ahead of OKC or not, but that case can be made.  However, they are still a good deal behind Tulsa.

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## onthestrip

> Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck...


This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.

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## bradh

I know this is a bit off topic, but if the old Belle Isle plant could have been turned into something like Gasworks Park in Seattle that would have been cool.

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## bchris02

> This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.


Well even a small quality development would be a good start. OKC's retail environment is so behind and overall so dismal at this point there really isn't anywhere to go but up. It really is disheartening because of that Wal-Mart, the Penn Square area will never come close to reaching the potential it had as a true upscale shopping district. As for NW Expy and Classen, I am thinking a small development with maybe a Container Store, a couple of boutiques and upscale chain restaurants would go good there.

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## Spartan

> This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.


...and Rand Elliot needs to not design it.

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## Teo9969

Pete, how's the amassing gone in the past year? Any ideas of who is behind this?

If the streetcar does indeed come right by this area, it would seem that something would happen here sooner rather than later (3 to 6 years instead of 5 to 10)

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## AP

This was mentioned in another thread and now I'm really interested. Anyone have any updates?

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## warreng88

I received an email from DeShawn Heusel, who works for ULI Oklahoma, with an invite to an event at 50 Penn Place. 

The event is titled "Envisioning Development at Transit Stations". Those present will hear from national experts and be asked to provide input on what they would like future development to be or look like at various locations along NW Expressway and Classen. The workshop is a next step in the NW Corridor planning that began in 2015. 

Not sure exactly what it entails, but could be an interesting discussion. I would assume Pete and Urbanized will be there.

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## progressiveboy

Maybe they will tear down the glass shop directly across Blackwelder, along with the rest of those homes directly east.  A little of an eyesore if you ask me.

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## Teo9969

I think the transit station would honestly be better placed on the north side of Expressway and finding a way to tie in all the development in Belle Isle. 

And of course, creating an intersection at Expressway and Classen that is walkable. 

A lot of thought really needs to given by city leaders toward the half-mile radius centered at Expressway and Classen because it's going to become the key to whether there's true connectivity between the NW quadrant and the rest of the core. Biking specifically needs to be factored in because this is one of the few places that you can effectively ignore I-44.

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## warreng88

It looks like the workshop has more to do with EMBARK and not so much this area. See the article below:

Embark to get strategic help

By: Dale Denwalt  The Journal Record	August 29, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – Metro officials will get help from a national nonprofit to plan land use near transit stops.

Smart Growth America picked Oklahoma City’s public transportation agency, Embark, as one of nine entities to receive technical assistance. Experts will visit Oklahoma City to help plan and manage transit projects using zoning, land use, low-cost housing and commercial development.

Some of those experts will meet with the public Tuesday in northwest Oklahoma City.

Embark has said there are places in the city that could be explored in the project, linking transit stops with mixed-use or other kinds of development that could encourage more use of the transit service.

A press release from the agency identified examples like 23rd and Classen Boulevard, Pennsylvania Avenue and NW 50th, and two other stops along Northwest Expressway.

Cathy O’Connor, president of the Alliance for Economic Development, said those areas have tremendous potential.

“One of the things that is challenging is we don’t have a lot of very dense development,” O’Connor said. “Even though in an area like Northwest 23rd and Classen, there’s development there but it’s not very dense.”

She said there are different ways planners might direct development.

“There’s the carrot and the stick,” O’Connor said. “Sometimes through the city’s development guidelines they can encourage a certain development. Then other times, we can proactively seek out developers for certain kinds of development.”

The meeting Tuesday will be at 6:30 p.m. on the third floor of 50 Penn Place.

Embark spokesman Michael Scroggins said the planning will focus on both future and existing stops.

“What it’s really aiming to do is further develop a corridor,” Scroggins said.

In the future, Embark could operate a transit service that looks like a bus but operates like a rail car with fewer stops and, possibly, dedicated lanes.

“Maybe there’s a pharmacy” at the stop, Scroggins said. “It could be that there’s an eatery nearby or a small grocer. Those things are all built and planned with transit at the forefront.”

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