# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  New West Norman Apartment Complex?

## Questor

Stumbled upon this recently... 



250,000 square feet slated for the NE corner of 36th Ave NW and Rock Creek Road.  The property is listed as "office/general purpose" but that rendering definitely looks like an apartment complex to me.

Anyone heard any rumors?

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## pure

I workout at Fitness One right across the street and I could have sworn there is a sign that says something about senior living, I'll confirm this tomorrow when there's light.

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## JimTrabersColostomyBag

I believe a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Grocery has been announced for that corner.

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## rcjunkie

> I workout at Fitness One right across the street and I could have sworn there is a sign that says something about senior living, I'll confirm this tomorrow when there's light.


The senior living complex is just south of 36th near the NW corner.

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## cas

This is different than the senior living complex.  There is an apartment complex they are trying to put in just west of the bank and daycare.  You can find it on the Norman Planning Commission's November 8th agenda.  It's called The Falls at Brookhaven.

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## rcjunkie

> This is different than the senior living complex.  There is an apartment complex they are trying to put in just west of the bank and daycare.  You can find it on the Norman Planning Commission's November 8th agenda.  It's called The Falls at Brookhaven.


They are doing dirt work in this area so it must have been approved.

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## Questor

I really do not understand Norman planning.

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## venture

> I really do not understand Norman planning.


No one does.

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## t3hwookiee

I think it's because they don't actually "plan" per se.

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## cas

> They are doing dirt work in this area so it must have been approved.


From what I can see the dirtwork is for the senior living center and the apartments will be on the east side of the current dirt work.

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## rcjunkie

> From what I can see the dirtwork is for the senior living center and the apartments will be on the east side of the current dirt work.


They are doing dirt work for the assisted living center S. of the bank, but they are also doing lots of dirt work W. of the bank/ office building.

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## Questor

Looks like senior living and apartments to the west of 36th. I think I am also hearing of apartments north of Rock Creek on the east side of 36th... Can anyone confirm that?  There is an existing complex just north of that. 

It looks like east of 36th, south of Rock Creek (next to the new fitness place) is zoned commercial. I wonder if that is where Wal-Mart is going?

There is also talk and proposals floating around out there for more and more home-style small office complexes throughout that area. 

Much further north, on Tecumseh, it looks like construction of medical offices (possibly sports rehab) has already been approved.

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## ou48A

> Looks like senior living and apartments to the west of 36th. I think I am also hearing of apartments north of Rock Creek on the east side of 36th... Can anyone confirm that?  There is an existing complex just north of that. 
> 
> It looks like east of 36th, south of Rock Creek (next to the new fitness place) is zoned commercial. I wonder if that is where Wal-Mart is going?
> 
> There is also talk and proposals floating around out there for more and more home-style small office complexes throughout that area. 
> 
> Much further north, on Tecumseh, it looks like construction of medical offices (possibly sports rehab) has already been approved.


The city said they would be medical offices.

Any idea how many apartments there will be and what there demographic target will be?

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## rcjunkie

> Looks like senior living and apartments to the west of 36th. I think I am also hearing of apartments north of Rock Creek on the east side of 36th... Can anyone confirm that?  There is an existing complex just north of that. 
> 
> It looks like east of 36th, south of Rock Creek (next to the new fitness place) is zoned commercial. I wonder if that is where Wal-Mart is going?
> 
> There is also talk and proposals floating around out there for more and more home-style small office complexes throughout that area. 
> 
> Much further north, on Tecumseh, it looks like construction of medical offices (possibly sports rehab) has already been approved.


Walmart is going on the NE corner of 36th Ave. NW and Rock Creek.

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## jedicurt

> Walmart is going on the NE corner of 36th Ave. NW and Rock Creek.


Walmart Neighborhood Market is what i heard, not a full Walmart

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## JimTrabersColostomyBag

Just drove by there.... on the west side of 36th south of Rock Creek Road Brookhaven Mansions assisted senior living is being constructed. West of 36th on Rock Creek Road dirt work is underway for something. NO sign yet but it looks like they're laying out some streets.
Also on the north side of Rock Creek right before the overpass there is dirt work going on.

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## MsProudSooner

Has anyone heard of an estimated completion date for these apartments?

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## john48

Assisted living centers are become a necessary part of our life its need of modern world. To help old people its a beautiful idea,
Norman is going to right way, we should support the project. Old people are needy to such projects..,

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## Just the facts

> Assisted living centers are become a necessary part of our life its need of modern world. To help old people its a beautiful idea,
> Norman is going to right way, we should support the project. Old people are needy to such projects..,


What old people need are walkable high density neighborhoods where they can still function as a member of society without depending on a shuttle van.

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## ou48A

> Stumbled upon this recently... 
> 
> 
> 
> 250,000 square feet slated for the NE corner of 36th Ave NW and Rock Creek Road.  The property is listed as "office/general purpose" but that rendering definitely looks like an apartment complex to me.
> 
> Anyone heard any rumors?


The Norman City Planning Commission held a meeting this past Thursday night regarding the proposed apartment construction. The vote was split 3 votes for the approval of the apartments, and 3 votes against the approval. There will be more meetings.

The current renderings have been changed very significantly since the original proposal and if built will likely change further. 
The builders current proposal still doesn’t include specifies on several issues.

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## Just the facts

Here you go Sid.  You won't like the positions from the Yea's or the Nay's.  They both are only interested in protecting segregated zoning and ensuring that everything is located next to nothing.

Planning commission split 3-3  The Norman Transcript

I do find it totally ironic that many of the area residents are upset that there isn't enough commercial zoning in the area.  Move to the suburban fringe and then complain everything is too far away.  Doh!

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## ou48A

> What were the concerns of those opposed?


Among other things the possibility of poor quality materials and the lack of specific information about materials. Some are concerned about what it’s going to look like in 10 years and would like all brick buildings. Some don’t like the architecture style and would like to see the collegiate look of the bank across the street.

The lack of an appropriate fence... The neighborhood has a brick fence that’s about 6 or 7 feet high, some feel the new apartments should too, at least where it boarders the neighborhood.

Some say that if it has to be built why can’t they build 2 story instead of 3. Some feel that there is not enough demand for Apartments in this part of Norman. There are concerns about the already over crowed grade school.
Many have indicated that they would drop opposition if these where quality condos being built.

Here’s what the Transcript wrote.
Planning commission split 3-3  Local news  The Norman Transcript

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## kevinpate

One ponders what would happen if instead of the current 36/Tecumseh proposal the developer were to decide to put in a tiny gasoline & c-store and either budget condos or vinyl sided starter homes.  But, hey, at least it wouldn't be a bunch of renters.

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## ou48A

At nearly midnight last night the Norman city council approved the new apartments at NW 36 &Tecumseh in a 5 to 3 vote with one recusal.
While the local area did not succeed in blocking this development they did succeed in having many of their concerns addressed and as a result the plan was significantly changed from the original plan.

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## venture

Was reading in the Transcript that they didn't have the outcome at press time. Good to see it passed. It also appears the developer was more than supportive in address the issues by the residents. At times it appeared that they (the residents) were more stubborn for the sake of being stubborn than anything. I do hope that the area does see some more commercial development, that they have been requesting, to help balance the area out more. However, this portion of town is more suburban than anything and likely filled with commuters going to OKC...so some higher density infill should help.

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## HangryHippo

Are there any pictures of what is now to be built there?  I didn't see any with the article in the Transcript this morning.

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## ou48A

Because there will likely be 1000’s more higher than average income home owners being built  in the  NW Norman area in the next 10 to 20 years…… I would have much rather seen high end retail built on this corner property. Because this corner will now not be retail of any type many Norman residents who move to this area will be more likely to make the much shorter trip to Moore to spend their sales tax money. Many already do this anyway.

The apartments are much better IMHO and on that point the residents did have a significant impact. So I guess you could say it’s not an entire loss for the current residents of the area.
Other apartments are going up and apparently others are on the drawing boards for Northwest Norman.

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## ou48A

> Are there any pictures of what is now to be built there?  I didn't see any with the article in the Transcript this morning.


They had a new rendering but I don’t have any idea where to find it on line.

There will be no west facing windows.
They have moved the building back several feet further away from existing homes.
There will be a 6 foot fence. I think they said it would be concrete panels?
The far western sides of the apartments will be 2 story’s’ instead of 3.
They have decreased the entrances / exits from 3 to 2.
Rent is projected to be $800 for a one bed room $1200 for a 2 bed room unit.
Many apartments will have garages with covered parking for most others.
Their target demographic is the young professional, single, or young married couple without kids.

They sold this as very high / or upscale project and that may well be true for Norman, but compared to what I have seen in other larger markets this is nothing special.

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## venture

> Because there will likely be 1000’s more higher than average income home owners being built  in the  NW Norman area in the next 10 to 20 years…… I would have much rather seen high end retail built on this corner property. Because this corner will now not be retail of any type many Norman residents who move to this area will be more likely to make the much shorter trip to Moore to spend their sales tax money. Many already do this anyway.
> 
> The apartments are much better IMHO and on that point the residents did have a significant impact. So I guess you could say it’s not an entire loss for the current residents of the area.
> Other apartments are going up and apparently others are on the drawing boards for Northwest Norman.


If the home owners in that area were really wanting retail in that part of Norman, they would be showing it by patronizing stores closer. Right now developers see that the residents there have no problem driving to Moore so why bother?

1000's more...single family suburban houses in typical subdivisions. Oh let me control my excitement. 

Thanks for the recap on the changes...pretty much everything the Transcript already covered.

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## ou48A

> If the home owners in that area were really wanting retail in that part of Norman, they would be showing it by patronizing stores closer. Right now developers see that the residents there have no problem driving to Moore so why bother?
> 
> 1000's more...single family suburban houses in typical subdivisions. Oh let me control my excitement. 
> 
> Thanks for the recap on the changes...pretty much everything the Transcript already covered.


I hadn’t read the Transcript.

The mayor talked about the 1000’s of lots that would be someday developed in northwest Norman and the desired to keep this future sales tax revenue in Norman... Good shopping options will be need to accomplish this goal. The loss of this corner reduces the opportunists to meet this goal. It would have been better for the city’s future revenue had these apartments been located on nearby vacant land.

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## kevinpate

A brief look at the fast food, churches and offices that are already at/near the corner never really suggested that anything higher end than housing would end up there.  Glad it went through, and it sounds like the final target audience is the same as the initial target audience, albeit now apparently no one will be permitted to enjoy a sunset via a window or a balcony (or at least those furthest west won't.

No one gets all they want.  Many get most of what they want. close enough to win-win to tip a hat to all.

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## Questor

> If the home owners in that area were really wanting retail in that part of Norman, they would be showing it by patronizing stores closer. Right now developers see that the residents there have no problem driving to Moore so why bother?


Wow, I don't even know how to respond to this.  The whole problem is that there is no closer retail... there's a CVS, two fast food places, a Subway and an Asian place.  The next closest retail is literally over a mile away.  That's the whole reason this area was originally zoned commercial... Sadly, there's no more commercial land left in the area.  It's all been taken up by medical buildings and banks.  So I don't know where you are coming from here, other than perhaps ignorance of the actual layout of the area.  There's no more nearby retail, and now there will never be any more nearby retail, except for the tiny lot that the complex carved out for a gas station at the corner.

Nearly a thousand residents protest this development, and there are so many people in protest the night of the meeting that the council chambers, the foyer, and the parking lot are completely full of people, and the council votes for it anyway and somehow that is good governance?

I don't see how anyone familiar with the area could say with a straight face that this corner couldn't support commercial.  The area residential makeup is loaded with six figure salaries, many of the homes in the area didn't exist 5 years ago, there are tons of medical professionals in the area during the day, and there is massive, massive new development of houses occurring to the west of this location which will be completing its first phase sometime next year.  The corner could have been 'the new Brookhaven Village.'  That's how the area was zoned prior to last night.  The whole thing is a planning disaster in my opinion and does nothing but further west Norman's quest into being exactly like the suburban housing Armageddon that is north OKC, north of Memorial Road... just acres and acres of houses with the only sizable commercial requiring a drive down to Memorial.  What a horrible, horrible layout.

I don't understand Norman at all.  The council will talk until they are blue in the face about trying to create mixed use on the east side of town, but when it comes time to vote they do the exact opposite on the west side of town and ensure that there will forever be nothing but miles of houses, apartments, and medical buildings there.  It's just insane.

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## Questor

Norman approves apartments despite giant protest | KFOR.com

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## Questor

"High end" apartments.  Just like "high end" UNP.

Renaissance at Norman off of SH-9 has garages.  I guess those are "high end" too.  I guess that makes perfect sense since it's located next to Perfect Swing, which is such an attractively "high end" although whats the word I'm looking for... dilapidated... business establishment.  But hey I hear someone might tear it down in the near future and build a "high end" Wal-Mart or Lowe's on that land.  Glad to see that Norman is thinking like a big city these days.  I can clearly see how we are the next Austin, what with all the classy "high end" development going on here.

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## venture

> Wow, I don't even know how to respond to this.  The whole problem is that there is no closer retail... there's a CVS, two fast food places, a Subway and an Asian place.  The next closest retail is literally over a mile away.  That's the whole reason this area was originally zoned commercial... Sadly, there's no more commercial land left in the area.  It's all been taken up by medical buildings and banks.  So I don't know where you are coming from here, other than perhaps ignorance of the actual layout of the area.  There's no more nearby retail, and now there will never be any more nearby retail, except for the tiny lot that the complex carved out for a gas station at the corner.
> 
> Nearly a thousand residents protest this development, and there are so many people in protest the night of the meeting that the council chambers, the foyer, and the parking lot are completely full of people, and the council votes for it anyway and somehow that is good governance?
> 
> I don't see how anyone familiar with the area could say with a straight face that this corner couldn't support commercial.  The area residential makeup is loaded with six figure salaries, many of the homes in the area didn't exist 5 years ago, there are tons of medical professionals in the area during the day, and there is massive, massive new development of houses occurring to the west of this location which will be completing its first phase sometime next year.  The corner could have been 'the new Brookhaven Village.'  That's how the area was zoned prior to last night.  The whole thing is a planning disaster in my opinion and does nothing but further west Norman's quest into being exactly like the suburban housing Armageddon that is north OKC, north of Memorial Road... just acres and acres of houses with the only sizable commercial requiring a drive down to Memorial.  What a horrible, horrible layout.
> 
> I don't understand Norman at all.  The council will talk until they are blue in the face about trying to create mixed use on the east side of town, but when it comes time to vote they do the exact opposite on the west side of town and ensure that there will forever be nothing but miles of houses, apartments, and medical buildings there.  It's just insane.


Has any serious developer come forward looking to build any type of "worthy" retail in that area? 

You would think if it is as great as you say, especially with all those high income residents and the new medical officers, they could show there is demand for something more than a McD's. If people really wanted to live in an area that has good retail access, then maybe they shouldn't have moved into another cookie cutter suburban zone? They could have easily spent their money on a home or plot of land (to build on) closer into town. However, because they decided to move out on the fringes of town (to drive more sprawl) they are going to pout because they aren't getting the services they feel they are entitled to?  Wah.

Eeesh. I feel like I'm turning into Kerry on this whole sprawl issue.  :Smile:

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## blangtang

> Here you go Sid.  You won't like the positions from the Yea's or the Nay's.  They both are only interested in protecting segregated zoning and ensuring that everything is located next to nothing.
> 
> Planning commission split 3-3  The Norman Transcript
> 
> *I do find it totally ironic that many of the area residents are upset that there isn't enough commercial zoning in the area.  Move to the suburban fringe and then complain everything is too far away.  Doh!*



Thousands are protesting this?  Really!

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## Questor

I said nearly a thousand people. If you will read today's Norman transcript, you will see that 835 people had signed the petition against rezoning this land. Above and beyond that there were additional folks who didn't sign for whatever reason but who didn't want to see the rezoning occur either.  If you watch the KFOR video above the city planning director says it was the largest zoning protest the city has ever had.  So yes exactly as I said, nearly a thousand people protested this.  Or in other words orders of magnitude more people than all recent east side protests combined. 

Norman Transcript : Controversial zoning change moves forward

As far as getting the services we are entitled to... Perhaps residents thought they knew what they were getting into when they bought real estate in this part of town because the city's own plans and zoning said that commercial was exactly what they were supposed to get in this part of town. Last night's council meeting really wasn't about approving an apartment complex, it was about the city revising plans that had always been in place for this area to be commercial, forever removing the only available commercial land in this area. On paper, prior to last night, the setup of the area looked a lot like the Brookhaven area's setup. 

Prior attempts to develop the land were all done many years ago, before most any of the houses in the area were even built. The developers own presentation stated that. With hundreds more houses on the way over the next several years (entire sections of 48th are being bulldozed and house construction is beginning) future residential growth for the area is very strong. To me it looks like a situation where the land owner just didn't want to wait any longer, and now isn't exactly a great time for commercial development but it is a good economy for apartments. Looking forward the area would have been great for commercial.

Longer term I think it was a very poor _financial_ decision for Norman. I think area residents are probably going to go out of their way to head up to 19th Street in Moore to do their shopping now, rather than down to Robinson or Main or UNP. Especially when you consider this lot was the last prime commercial lot on the upper west side. The mayor stated that was her rationale for voting against the rezoning.

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## ou48A

It’s very safe to say that money will flow from residents of  this part of Norman to candid’s who will be running in the next election against the members of the city counsel who voted for this.

When past city leadership had zoned this property correctly its pretty clear that the members of the city counsel who voted for this don’t respect the city’s past leadership decisions or do they care enough about a very large number residents who protested this or do they care about what is in the best long term interest of the city.

They may talk a good game, but this is not quality leadership with the long range vision that the city of Norman needs.

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## kevinpate

Between this new complex and the rental units going in a mile south, and others under consideration in the general area and elsewhere in Norman, it appears there is quite an anticipated demand for more than single family residential property all across the community, and of course, there is still a lot of demand for more and more single family land tracts as well.  Grow on Norman, and where ever possible, may we grow up as well. Lots of sky available for more than than typical 2-3 floors you see around here.

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## venture

> It’s very safe to say that money will flow from residents of  this part of Norman to candid’s who will be running in the next election against the members of the city counsel who voted for this.


If it gets rid of Dave Spaulding, who voted for it, then by all means - donate away!

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## DirtLaw

> Its very safe to say that money will flow from residents of  this part of Norman to candids who will be running in the next election against the members of the city counsel who voted for this.
> 
> When past city leadership had zoned this property correctly its pretty clear that the members of the city counsel who voted for this dont respect the citys past leadership decisions or do they care enough about a very large number residents who protested this or do they care about what is in the best long term interest of the city.
> 
> They may talk a good game, but this is not quality leadership with the long range vision that the city of Norman needs.


I think your premise of the property being zoned "correctly" is off. Zoning is not a static thing. It is subject to constant change as the market demands. Just because it was zoned commercial in the past does not mean that is the use that is currently best suited for that property. Here, the market clearly did not demand the type of high end retail that some desire. Anytime a controversial zoning decision is cast, people call for change in council members and most times things stay the same.

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## ou48A

> I think your premise of the property being zoned "correctly" is off. Zoning is not a static thing. It is subject to constant change as the market demands. Just because it was zoned commercial in the past does not mean that is the use that is currently best suited for that property. Here, the market clearly did not demand the type of high end retail that some desire. Anytime a controversial zoning decision is cast, people call for change in council members and most times things stay the same.


Once NW Norman has been much more build up in several years city leaders will look back at this as a mistake. We have seen this same lack of vision for the future over and over again in Norman. This zoning change goes against past recommendations. Yes, zoning is not a static thing, but that doesn’t make this zoning change right for the long term interest of Norman.
The property at this corner is far better suited for upscale shopping that would easily follow the development of more high end homes in this area.

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## venture

> Once NW Norman has been much more build up in several years city leaders will look back at this as a mistake. We have seen this same lack of vision for the future over and over again in Norman. This zoning change goes against past recommendations. Yes, zoning is not a static thing, but that doesn’t make this zoning change right for the long term interest of Norman.
> The property at this corner is far better suited for upscale shopping that would easily follow the development of more high end homes in this area.


Probably the biggest mistake was zoning it residential to begin with permitting more sprawl. Exactly what "upscale" shopping is really going to go in there?

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## ou48A

> I said nearly a thousand people. If you will read today's Norman transcript, you will see that 835 people had signed the petition against rezoning this land. Above and beyond that there were additional folks who didn't sign for whatever reason but who didn't want to see the rezoning occur either.  If you watch the KFOR video above the city planning director says it was the largest zoning protest the city has ever had.  So yes exactly as I said, nearly a thousand people protested this.  Or in other words orders of magnitude more people than all recent east side protests combined. 
> 
> Norman Transcript : Controversial zoning change moves forward
> 
> As far as getting the services we are entitled to... Perhaps residents thought they knew what they were getting into when they bought real estate in this part of town because the city's own plans and zoning said that commercial was exactly what they were supposed to get in this part of town. *Last night's council meeting really wasn't about approving an apartment complex, it was about the city revising plans that had always been in place for this area to be commercial, forever removing the only available commercial land in this area. On paper, prior to last night, the setup of the area looked a lot like the Brookhaven area's setup.* 
> 
> *Prior attempts to develop the land were all done many years ago, before most any of the houses in the area were even built. The developers own presentation stated that*. With hundreds more houses on the way over the next several years (entire sections of 48th are being bulldozed and house construction is beginning) future residential growth for the area is very strong. To me it looks like a situation where the land owner just didn't want to wait any longer, and now isn't exactly a great time for commercial development but it is a good economy for apartments. Looking forward the area would have been great for commercial.
> 
> Longer term I think it was a very poor _financial_ decision for Norman. I think area residents are probably going to go out of their way to head up to 19th Street in Moore to do their shopping now, rather than down to Robinson or Main or UNP. Especially when you consider this lot was the last prime commercial lot on the upper west side. The mayor stated that was her rationale for voting against the rezoning.


Very good post

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## Questor

> Probably the biggest mistake was zoning it residential to begin with permitting more sprawl. Exactly what "upscale" shopping is really going to go in there?


It (the commercial property) didn't have to be upscale.  'Upscale' was simply mentioned in this thread because the lawyer for the developer keeps championing how 'upscale' these apartments will be.  That was never the requirement for commercial development.

It was just simply zoned commercial.  Residents would have been happy with a gas station, grocery store, and a restaurant or two.  Statements like that were said by residents over and over during planning commission deliberations.  The lawyer would slickly point to prior protests against commercial in the area, and say residents were just being anti-development, but would never mention that the prior protests had to do with gobbling up all the surrounding commercial land and putting medical complexes on them.  That has always been the problem... the message has always been consistent... commercial property that nearby residents could utilize for shopping and incidentals was what was always desired.

That's why the situation is so frustrating... it's really almost impossible to come up with a scenario where a gas station wouldn't do well in the area, when the nearest one is a 7-11 a mile and a half south of there, and there are no gas stations within many miles to the north, west, or east.  Same goes for full-service restaurants... same sentiment goes for grocers.

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## Questor

> It’s very safe to say that money will flow from residents of  this part of Norman to candidate’s who will be running in the next election against the members of the city counsel who voted for this.


I would say if a "PAC," much like the one that was previously created during the Ward 8 (e.g. this neighborhood's) 2012 election cycle, were formed in a year or two with the sole intent of rebooting the entire council you would find many residents in the area willing to donate large sums to it....

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## kevinpate

> ... 
> That's why the situation is so frustrating... it's really almost impossible to come up with a scenario where a gas station wouldn't do well in the area, when the nearest one is a 7-11 a mile and a half south of there, and there are no gas stations within many miles to the north, west, or east.  Same goes for full-service restaurants... same sentiment goes for grocers.


Huh?
7/11 is a mile (36th and Rock Creek) from the north end (36th and Tecumseh) of the new apt. site.
There's a Shell convenience store on Flood, just south of Tecumseh, about 1.3 miles east of NW36th/WTecumseh.
There's a new and large OnCue going in at Tecumseh/Flood, also under 1.3 miles eat of NW36th/WTecumseh.
Numerous food outlets, QSR and sit-down, and retail are within 2.5 miles to south, a touch farther to eastsoutheast. 
Fast food in immediate vicinity.

Oh well.

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## Questor

Flood is over 10 minutes away in morning and evening rush hour traffic.  There are no options north... which most of the residents in the area are commuting to and from.  The 7-11 at Rock Creek is overwhelmed with business... just go observe it some evening.  It is obvious that the area is in need of additional gas stations, and this is before the large developments on 48th have even completed (ECD summer).  I mean blatantly obvious. 

I guess you and I just have differing opinions on the idea of what numerous nearby food options means.  Sonic, McDonald's, and Subway?  No full service?

Yes I agree that Brookhaven is the west side's best option right now.  (But seriously even that is kind of sad... what's it consist of, a Chinese place, a Louie's, and a salad place?).  It's actually more than 2.5 miles away for the additions north of Tecumseh and also the ones closer to 48th, which are both still part of Norman.  

So you are inadvertently proving my point right?  The 1, 3, and 5 mile marketing bullseyes clearly show nothing much within the one mile sweet spot for a big chunk of the far NW.  Draw the bullseye over just about any other part of Norman where there is substantial population and you're going to find something within the one mile bullseye.  Not here.

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## blangtang

> Flood is over 10 minutes away in morning and evening rush hour traffic.  There are no options north... which most of the residents in the area are commuting to and from.  The 7-11 at Rock Creek is overwhelmed with business... just go observe it some evening.  It is obvious that the area is in need of additional gas stations, and this is before the large developments on 48th have even completed (ECD summer).  I mean blatantly obvious. 
> 
> I guess you and I just have differing opinions on the idea of what numerous nearby food options means.  Sonic, McDonald's, and Subway?  No full service?
> 
> Yes I agree that Brookhaven is the west side's best option right now.  (But seriously even that is kind of sad... what's it consist of, a Chinese place, a Louie's, and a salad place?).  It's actually more than 2.5 miles away for the additions north of Tecumseh and also the ones closer to 48th, which are both still part of Norman.  
> 
> So you are inadvertently proving my point right?  The 1, 3, and 5 mile marketing bullseyes clearly show nothing much within the one mile sweet spot for a big chunk of the far NW.  Draw the bullseye over just about any other part of Norman where there is substantial population and you're going to find something within the one mile bullseye.  *Not here.*


You're making it sound like a terrible place to live!

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## kevinpate

No, noting the misrepresentations doesn't prove your point.  
It simply notes the misrepresentations existed, without assigning any motive to why the same were presented in the first instance.

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## rcjunkie

> It (the commercial property) didn't have to be upscale.  'Upscale' was simply mentioned in this thread because the lawyer for the developer keeps championing how 'upscale' these apartments will be.  That was never the requirement for commercial development.
> 
> It was just simply zoned commercial.  Residents would have been happy with a gas station, grocery store, and a restaurant or two.  Statements like that were said by residents over and over during planning commission deliberations.  The lawyer would slickly point to prior protests against commercial in the area, and say residents were just being anti-development, but would never mention that the prior protests had to do with gobbling up all the surrounding commercial land and putting medical complexes on them.  That has always been the problem... the message has always been consistent... commercial property that nearby residents could utilize for shopping and incidentals was what was always desired.
> 
> That's why the situation is so frustrating... it's really almost impossible to come up with a scenario where a gas station wouldn't do well in the area, when the nearest one is a 7-11 a mile and a half south of there, and there are no gas stations within many miles to the north, west, or east.  Same goes for full-service restaurants... same sentiment goes for grocers.


Before I moved to Lake Tenkiller, I lived in West Norman so I know this area very well. If I'm correct, wasn't it over a mile to a gas station or restaurant before you moved there.

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## Edgar

Ask any real Norman- the town's only problem is it's 35miles from OKC and the Bible thumpers and angry conservatives are oozing down I-35. The proposed Boyd St complex would have looked stupid , out of place like the Devon Tower, been a traffic nightmare and ruined a historic neighborhood. 
 I notice the chamber junta is feilding a heavy hitter to oppose Cindy next term. He'll no doubt enjoy massive funding to spread all sorts of free speech bunkum against the honorable Ms Rosenthall. Look, the signs at the town gates announce Norman as an inclusive community. If that rankles, buy your chicken sandwiches elsewhere. Have respect.

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## venture

> Flood is over 10 minutes away in morning and evening rush hour traffic. ...


Are you really that freaking lazy to drive your butt over I-35 to the new OnQue that is going to be massive? I live in a part of East Norman where there isn't any fast food or other food service with in a mile. I still have to go pretty much all the way to 12th to get any decent variety. However, I knew that before buying here and I'm not going to sit here and rant an rave. That's just silly.




> You're making it sound like a terrible place to live!


Indeed. How can those poor people manage to survive in their  $300-600K homes in that area. It is a social injustice I tell ya!




> Before I moved to Lake Tenkiller, I lived in West Norman so I know this area very well. If I'm correct, wasn't it over a mile to a gas station or restaurant before you moved there.


Sort of like people that build a house next to an airport, that's been there for 60 years, and then complain about airplane noise.




> Ask any real Norman- the town's only problem is it's 35miles from OKC and the Bible thumpers and angry conservatives are oozing down I-35. The proposed Boyd St complex would have looked stupid , out of place like the Devon Tower, been a traffic nightmare and ruined a historic neighborhood. 
>  I notice the chamber junta is feilding a heavy hitter to oppose Cindy next term. He'll no doubt enjoy massive funding to spread all sorts of free speech bunkum against the honorable Ms Rosenthall. Look, the signs at the town gates announce Norman as an inclusive community. If that rankles, buy your chicken sandwiches elsewhere. Have respect.


I've not be a major fan of Cindy, but she hasn't done anything to warrant losing her job at this point. It isn't like she is really going to get many votes from people that live in this specific area. Precinct 73, which includes the neighborhood being discussed, voted 65% for Romney. Precinct 89 on the north side of this area voted 71% for Romney. Precinct 91, on the east side of this area, voted 79% for Romney. These aren't your typical open minded, moderate, inclusive thinking people. They are just typical suburbanite conservatives that love sprawl and feel entitled to services in their neighborhood.

Personally if I had a spent the money on a house in this value, I would want to be nice and tucked away from most of the city and the services that draw traffic. That will typically mean crime and other elements I don't want to put up with are going to be further away.

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## vaflyer

Rush hour traffic on the Tecumseh Rd. bridge over I-35 is terrible which will prevent the new On-Cue from being a viable option for those living west of I-35. The 7-11 at Rock Creek is always busy in the morning and evening. The new Wal-Mart service station at Rock Creek and NW 36 St. will help but a service station is clearly needed west of I-35 and north of Rock Creek. All of the new rooftops in that area are creating a demand for a service station and the new apartments will only make the situation worse.

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## kevinpate

Maybe I recall incorrectly, but I was thinking the plan for the new apt complex included a change that would reserve out part of the ne corner of the land for the apt. development to be used for a c store and pumps. Did that not happen?  If it did, many of the folk up there will be spared making that long, harrowing mile or so drive to the existing pump locations.

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## ljbab728

> Rush hour traffic on the Tecumseh Rd. bridge over I-35 is terrible which will prevent the new On-Cue from being a viable option for those living west of I-35. The 7-11 at Rock Creek is always busy in the morning and evening. The new Wal-Mart service station at Rock Creek and NW 36 St. will help but a service station is clearly needed west of I-35 and north of Rock Creek. All of the new rooftops in that area are creating a demand for a service station and the new apartments will only make the situation worse.


Have any of the people who are worried about trying to get gas during rush hour ever considered going at another time?  Surely they don't get up in the morning to go to work and have it dawn on them that they are almost out of gas.  I have plenty of options for gas near me but I still never go during rush hour.

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## venture

> Have any of the people who are worried about trying to get gas during rush hour ever considered going at another time?  Surely they don't get up in the morning to go to work and have it dawn on them that they are almost out of gas.  I have plenty of options for gas near me but I still never go during rush hour.


First world problems?  :Wink:

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## pw405

> First world problems?


I live here and deal with this all the time.... You have so many options in this area,  you can exit 77 south, Tecumseh road, or Indian hills.  From there you can go south on about 3-4 streets depending on where you are and or need to go.  There is an airport in the way, so consider that.  Since the opening of the Robinson street underpass, north Norman has never been easier to get around in.  Love it here (in terms of easy car usage).  From what I have seen, Norman builds streets faster and way higher quality than okc does.  

Basically, if you are complaining about traffic in this area, you don't know what traffic is, or you just need to learn a new route.

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## ljbab728

Many people always find a way to a problem to coincide with what they believe to be true.

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## Questor

Thank you Kevin for your reasoned replies.  It's unfortunate that so many of our fellow board members have so little to retort with that they feel they must stoop to juvenile antics.

You're right, as a concession to the neighborhood opposition the land owner did revise his site plans late in the game to include a small corner of commercial.  No promises were made, but it was in a lawyery way suggested that _perhaps_ that would end up being a small gas station.  I am not even sure if that small area was carved out and zoned as commercial... it could still be lumped in with everything else that got rezoned.  I don't recall hearing the specifics of that.

I think what many folks have missed in this discussion is that it is one about planning, the future, and where this portion of the city will be in the next five years.  Over the last five years hundreds of new houses were built in this area.  In the next two years another hundred or more houses are going to be added to the area along 48th St. NW.  The proposed apartment complex is going to be three stories and will likely add several hundred more people to the area.  In addition, immediately south of this area a large apartment-like complex is being built as a retirement community which will undoubtedly bring more people to the area.  Across the street from that another complex is being kicked around that would bring a few hundred more.  And behind the 7-11 on Indian Hills and across the street is another complex which is already under construction, I believe it is three stories as well if memory serves correctly.  That will undoubtedly add many more people and traffic.  It is conceivable that over 1,000 new people will be moving to this area within the next 12 months, perhaps doubling the population of the 36th Street corridor.

Over the same five year period two mega churches have been built north of Tecumseh Road near 36th, and a giant medical complex and surrounding spin-off businesses have been built to the east.  The churches drive additional traffic on the weekends and the medical facilities drive traffic 24/7.

The 7-11 is busy around the clock.  You can go at 8:30 p.m. at night and all lanes will be full. The traffic in that area is actually somewhat dangerous during peak times due to all the goofy driving going on around the place.  Half a mile south of there, south of Robinson is a small gas station on 36th Street.  The gas station further down 36th that some has mentioned is only four nozzles, has no credit card scanner, and closes at 7 or 8.  In other words it's not built for capacity.  The gas station across Flood is still under construction the last time I checked.  Maybe that will help.  The one further south on Flood is a nice thought, but realistically no one in this neck of the woods is using it.  It's too out of the way.  I'm speaking collectively here, and that is not going to change.  So then that drives more traffic on 36th waiting for gas, or it drives sales away from Norman and to the travel origination point (probably OKC).  We have to be realistic... people are going to be people, so we have to consider what that will do to our infrastructure/traffic patterns/etc.  

And none of this even addresses any of the mayor's concerns about the loss of this area as a sales tax revenue base, or concerns about a lack of other types of retail in the area not including gas stations.

As far as traffic concerns with respect to the addition of more commercial, as I am sure some would at least have a legitimate question about... most area residents felt that the city staff's conclusion that apartments would drive less traffic in the area was flawed or just didn't simply agree with how they quantified their conclusion.  In reality a good commercial property was likely to increase traffic during peak times but not around the clock like an apartment complex will, which do not have specific hours of operation like a business.

The area is about to see a large population increase that is going to strain everything and the city just keeps approving all the developments... and then forgoes ones that would take the pressure off some of these items and rezones the area and replaces them with developments full of even more people.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to be able to look a few years ahead and see that City Planning isn't doing its job.  I think that's what residents have found most frustrating... no one seems to be looking ahead.  Or maybe they are and they just don't care.  Neither option really increases my opinion of Norman's city government.  Even if you disagree or don't care because you don't live in this area, the events that have led up to this should give all of you pause for concern.  Perhaps the council is setting precedent for how things are going to go down with density discussions in your neighborhood next year.  Perhaps now the west side of town just won't care to hear that area resident's concerns and will just rubber-stamp whatever city staff recommends.  We'll see.

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## Questor

Also, just want to point out that in so many other threads people constantly lament about the fact that OKC has no solidly upscale neighborhoods, that new development is often a mis-mash and that old neighborhoods are pocketed with very nice and very bad properties, and that this is what keeps the Whole Foods of the world at bay.  Others words, not mine, in fact many of yours.  Well, all I can say is we've done it to ourselves again....

At this point I just hope that this development now proceeds.  If it falls through, thanks to the city council rezoning the area as multifamily, any crappy development can now go in here without much discussion at all.

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## ou48A

Great posting Quststor….!

It appears there is so much factional infighting with city leaders that it sometimes prevents them from doing what’s in the best long range interest of the city’s residents.

 The loss of future sales tax revenue from probably the wealthiest part of Norman is going to hurt the city in the long run 
AND THAT HURTS EVERBODY.
Regardless of who they are, its pretty sad when people are so short sighted.

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## ou48A

> From what I have seen, Norman builds streets faster and way higher quality than okc does.  
> 
> Basically, if you are complaining about traffic in this area, you don't know what traffic is, or you just need to learn a new route.



Basically you should spend some time in some of the newer Dallas suburbs such as Frisco TX and you would see a much higher quality of thought put into how to plan a citys infrastructure.

We do far too little long range planning in Norman and when we do the city comes back and changes it on a whim and sometimes against the wishes of many.

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## Questor

Thanks.  The reality is that I don't think Norman is any good at understanding, planning, or performing urban development nor suburban development.  It's just bad across the board right now.  This city has room, and a need, for both types of development.  They both need each other to survive... the urban areas create amenities that make this city vibrant, and frankly the suburbs provide the funding to make that possible.  We shouldn't settle for sub-par in either category.  Looking at a city like Frisco, I think, is an example of how suburb development should be.  I think it's success is a foregone conclusion when you consider the number of trips friends, family, etc. have made from as far away as Norman, and how even a few are considering a move to Texas as a result.  I'm sure you have many examples too.  

I think there's an obvious mindset, at least on this board, that the suburbs should just be cast to the wind, but you know planning doesn't mean just thinking about the areas that interest you/the planners.  It means considering everything in the big picture and ensuring that your city is one big functioning system.  I don't think we have that kind of mindset here.

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## heyerdahl

> frankly the suburbs provide the funding to make that possible.


This is extremely untrue... from the public perspective urban areas pay for themselves and suburban sprawl is a net drain on public resources. A single family home development built in the middle of nowhere with newly extended infrastructure. The infrastructure serves fewer dwelling units per acre than it does in central Norman. Suburban development does not "pay for" anything in the long range, it drains public funds that could be used for improvement of existing infrastructure.

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## ou48A

> This is extremely untrue... from the public perspective urban areas pay for themselves and suburban sprawl is a net drain on public resources. A single family home development built in the middle of nowhere with newly extended infrastructure. The infrastructure serves fewer dwelling units per acre than it does in central Norman. Suburban development does not "pay for" anything in the long range, it drains public funds that could be used for improvement of existing infrastructure.


It is true when the incomes are significantly higher as they are in west Norman than they are in the older more urban areas of Norman.

In Norman’s case Quststor has it 100% right. There needs to be much better planning, better balance, higher standards and smart decision makers.

I am always reminded of this whenever I travel to the DFW area and see how they have been building their metro streets and highways for the past few decades. They simply often build it bigger, better and proactively from the very start with very long range goals in mind.

Most quality jobs relocate in areas that have a high quality of life…. Some of these things include higher end affordable homes, schools, above decent shopping with good streets and highways.

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## venture

I guess it depends on what you want. An urban college town or an upscale, high income suburb. 

When I see whining from people because they decided to build an expensive home on the outer fringes of town, while there are still large open areas close to the core of the city and services, then I say too bad. You made your bed by deciding to contribute to sprawl and move out in what was just an open grass field. Now would Norman Regional be part to blame in this? Hard to say since portions of Moore are also being served by them, so they need to be near a halfway point.

There is plenty of open land still along SW 36th that can be developed. Hey, those areas would be 10 minutes or less from a lot of retail venues.

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## ou48A

> I guess it depends on what you want. An urban college town or an upscale, high income suburb. 
> 
> When I see whining from people because they decided to build an expensive home on the outer fringes of town, while there are still large open areas close to the core of the city and services, then I say too bad. You made your bed by deciding to contribute to sprawl and move out in what was just an open grass field. Now would Norman Regional be part to blame in this? Hard to say since portions of Moore are also being served by them, so they need to be near a halfway point.
> 
> There is plenty of open land still along SW 36th that can be developed. Hey, those areas would be 10 minutes or less from a lot of retail venues.


You and countless other act like sprawl is the worst thing that could ever happen…. It’s not and not by a very large amount.

The lack of prosperity and lack of quality is a far bigger problem to quality community development….. 
 With enough prosperity urban sprawl pretty much (over time) takes care of its self.
This is not to say that we shouldn’t better control sprawl when it’s practical.

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## john48

> Assisted living centers are become a necessary part of our life its need of modern world. To help old people its a beautiful idea, Norman is going to right way, we should support the project. Old people are needy to such projects..,


Any Comments?

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## David

Work on the 36th and Tecumseh apartment complex may be starting up as in the last week or so a construction trailer showed up in the field.

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## Stan Silliman

Do they say the developer is? Sooner Traditions? Someone else?

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## David

Not that I noticed while driving by, but it's kind of out in the middle of the field so I may just have missed the details. I'll try to get a better look.

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## David

I snapped this picture on my way by a few minutes ago:



No clue on how to tell the developer from this. Here is the full size if it helps.

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## kevinpate

That's not near as many apartments as the naysayers were fearing.  Shorter building too.   :Smile:

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## ou48A

> That's not near as many apartments as the naysayers were fearing.  Shorter building too.


And it was the naysayers who caused a lot of that^

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## rcjunkie

> And it was the naysayers who caused a lot of that^


Those "naysayers" make my skin crawl. I live at Tenkiller but own proprty near this location so I have followed this development closely.  It's really sad when I hear people that live near this area refer to potential apartment renters as "those people". Sad and disgusting.

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## Mr T

I'm pretty sure post 76 was a good joke.  Not all of Norman "nay-sayers" live in that area.  We aren't really all that bad - it is just the "newspaper" editor who likes to imply that anything said other than pro-pro-pro-development is just a bunch of nattering old people who should die now and give up their teetering old bungalows and cottages for apartment buildings and Greek Houses.  Not going to happen.  The editor likes to call us naysayers and crunchy green people and NIMBY-types, but he is not a fair judge of what happens here by any stretch of the imagination.

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## Mr T

We are not the naysayers who say "those people."  We are the naysayers who argue with the city and the chamber about water rates and zoning changes and "cat-proof fences."

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## ou48A

> Those "naysayers" make my skin crawl. I live at Tenkiller but own proprty near this location so I have followed this development closely.  It's really sad when I hear people that live near this area refer to potential apartment renters as "those people". Sad and disgusting.


But what's really sad and disgusting is when people complain about intolerant people when in fact their own words make them look even more intolerant and hypocritical.

The fact is that this project is a lot more palatable for most existing property owners than it was before and for many, a reasonable compromise was found that would not have happened without the input from the so called naysayers.

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## David

The construction fence went up today.

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## kevinpate

Mr. T, it was indeed.

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## David

Looks like there's a name.



I've started to collect my pictures of this site into an Imgur album (also, I apparently take terrible pictures, so you get what you pay for):

Windsor Apartments - Imgur

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## Dar405301

Techumseh Road??

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## kevinpate

Dem  naysayers, they be chums.
 :Smile:

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## David

LOL, I didn't even notice the misspelling on the sign.

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## Dubya61

Well, as you get closer to Tecumseh, it's lower tech.

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## Stan Silliman

Moore-Norman Vo-Tech, not far from Techcumseh Road. 

"Franklin, my dear, I don't give a damn."

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## David

We're getting some earth moving on this site now, as well as the office complex site a bit to the west along Tecumseh.

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## David

A solid year into this project, and it turns out to be kind of huge. I'm a big fan of the stretch of the complex that sits right up against the road.

Windsor Apartments - 1.jpg

Windsor Apartments - 2.jpg

Windsor Apartments - 3.jpg

Windsor Apartments - 4.jpg

Amusingly enough I didn't take or make this panorama, Google automatically (and unexpectedly) stitched it together for me after I took the previous four.

Windsor Apartments - PANO.jpg

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## Brownwood

Although I live near and drive by the site each day, I almost forgot about the debate regarding the construction of the apartments. I'm neither for or against the development of the apartments, but I am thoroughly disgusted with the City of Norman (both planning staff and elected officials) for their disregard for the citizens. 

According to KFOR (see post #35 for link) a "giant protest" of 840 nearby homeowners signed a petition to prevent the development. This is a significant percentage of the homeowners who are most affected by the development. The City of Norman, as has been their history, simply ignores the will of the people in favor of the development community. It doesn't seem to matter what the local property owners want as long as the developers are kept happy. 

I think it's very important to remember the City did not approve a building permit for a development currently allowable: The City approved a CHANGE to the zoning and land use guidelines specifically PREVENTING this type of development from occurring. These ordinances were in effect when the home owners purchased their property and they should have a reasonable expectation of stability. At very least, the home owners should have a reasonable expectation of their collective voices being heard when a change was requested.

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## Questor

It's hard to tell from the photos, but not only are the apartments three stories but they are setting on top of a three or four foot high foundation.  They're huge... By far the tallest buildings in this part of NW Norman. 

Yes the city completely ignored its citizens and has since disallowed apartments in other parts of the city for being too big which aren't even close to the size of this complex. One has to wonder what the city's motivations were and are. 

Most of the councillors who voted for it are now gone from the council. The elections in the years following were brutal for several of them. There's still one guy on the council who voted for it. 

Not much has changed with the city planning commission, and the lawyer who represented this property continues to represent many other projects in front of the commission.

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## David

Ehh, I live closer to this complex than possibly anyone else on the board, and I don't mind either their size or their existence in the slightest. If the people who live in the immediate area that don't like what is being built want to live in an area where they can have more influence on their surroundings, *random set of cookie-cutter suburbs* is not that place, especially when said set of suburbs was built out in the middle of empty fields which are close enough to town that more development was eventually going to follow in relative short order.

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## Questor

Earlier this year these apartments were clipped by the May tornado or winds that took out a portion of the nearby Sonic. The building farthest south facing 36th street was visibly leaning to one side afterwards. There was a lot of chatter around town with locals wondering what would happen to the building. Anyway, after setting unchanged for several months one day construction restarted on the building and now it's almost finished. Anyone have any idea what that was all about?

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## Questor

New name and apparently ownership... Now known as Anatole at Norman. 

The Anatole at Norman Apartments

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