# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  Campus Corner to Main Street Master Plan

## Geographer

I believe the city and university are now working together on a master plan for the area between main street and campus corner...something like a "center city master plan".

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## Mr T

Gosh, and they have such a great track record!  The UNP is magnificent, and Lindsey Street will be amazing!  I betcha we can do some cool visioning with OU experts!  Maybe we can even tie this in with the expensive drawings we purchased of the lovely Porter Street.

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## kevinpate

Aww, ain't no thang. 
Another parking lot or two here, an apartment bldg. or two there, another church expansion here, one there, and yer done.

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## Just the facts

> Gosh, and they have such a great track record!  The UNP is magnificent, and Lindsey Street will be amazing!  I betcha we can do some cool visioning with OU experts!  Maybe we can even tie this in with the expensive drawings we purchased of the lovely Porter Street.


Kind of make you wonder how many balls they plan on dropping doesn't it.  It seems every college town in America has rediscovered 'walking' except Norman.  If they want to attract students 10 years from now they need to get their act together.  If someone was ever to build a college campus in/adjacent to downtown OKC it could put a dent in OU and OSU enrollment.

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## BG918

> If someone was ever to build a college campus in/adjacent to downtown OKC it could put a dent in OU and OSU enrollment.


I don't see that happening.  Why would you spread already thin resources over an even larger area?  Though OCU could move some other things downtown.  The only urban university in Oklahoma is OSU-Tulsa and it has been a fight to get it expanded because of fear that it will eat too much into the enrollment in Stillwater (which it would).

I am hopeful a master plan can be developed for central Norman that promotes walkability and transit because the way that area is set up is perfect for it but needs a better plan so suburban interests don't compromise it.

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## Just the facts

> I don't see that happening.  Why would you spread already thin resources over an even larger area?  Though OCU could move some other things downtown.  The only urban university in Oklahoma is OSU-Tulsa and it has been a fight to get it expanded because of fear that it will eat too much into the enrollment in Stillwater (which it would).
> 
> I am hopeful a master plan can be developed for central Norman that promotes walkability and transit because the way that area is set up is perfect for it but needs a better plan so suburban interests don't compromise it.


You don't see what happening?  I think your example of OSU-Tulsa is exactly what I was saying (although I wouldn't call it urban despite the location).  I was thinking more along the lines of Georgia Tech, Georgia State, Univ of Wisconsin, Chico St (where I used to live), etc...

For OU to compete for students going forward they are going to have to create the type of environment future students are going to want to live and learn in.  My son, who I mentioned in another thread doesn't have any interest in driving, is looking at Palm Beach Atlantic University in downtown West Palm Beach.  Everything he could want is within walking distance of the campus, including a substantial business community, Tri-rail station, and soon an All-Aboard Florida rail system that will allow him to ride the train back home to Jacksonville.

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## BG918

I meant I don't see a new university being built by downtown OKC.  But yes OU can be a much more urban campus even in suburban Norman.  Lawrence, KS is a good example of that , and one Norman should look up to as an example.

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## Just the facts

Thought I would put this here instead of muddying the waters on the Memorial Stadium Master Plan thread.

Imagine a downtown Norman 12,000-14,000 seat arena owned by the city and rented to OU for men's and women's basketball, but also available for hosting other functions like high school games, State basketball tournaments, concerts, conventions/trade shows, graduations, etc... with the ability to sell alcohol.  A parking garage adjacent to the arena could provide parking to downtown Norman businesses during the day, restaurants in the evening and on weekends, and the arena on game nights.

NCAA Sued Over Forcing High School Tournaments Off Its Campuses - Forbes




> In past posts, Ive written about the National Collegiate Athletic Associations quest to remove high school events from member campuses, just in case a program was receiving a recruiting benefit from hosting one  or faced the threat of a recruiting deficit if it didnt. In particular, the NCAA has banned high school basketball tournaments (except for those events sanctioned by a state association, which basically means postseason tournament games), and 7-on-7 elite football tournaments.

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## Just the facts

We went to a Jacksonville University basketball game on Saturday afternoon.  They play off-campus at Jax Veterans Memorial Arena.  Despite a small crowd (which wouldn't be any bigger if held on-campus) it made for a nice day because we could partake in the area's amenities.  Restaurants adjacent to the arena were open and people were on the street - in part because the Jacksonville Giants (ABA) has their own basketball game about 3 hours after the JU game ended.  Instead of the city-owned parking garages and arena only serving one event on Saturday, it served two.  While I am not a 'drinker' alcohol sales were allowed because it was not a university campus.

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## ou48A

> NCAA Sued Over Forcing High School Tournaments Off Its Campuses - Forbes


Interesting.... I did not know that.....

OSU still has many high school football playoff games on its campus.
I don't think OU has had any playoff games in the past several years. Maybe this^ is why?

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## hoya

I think mainly they are trying to get rid of association games.  You have high school kids playing is games that are not directly affiliated with the school, and a lot of the guys who run those things are involved with shady recruiters.

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## Just the facts

Hoyasooner, it is an incremental process.  The NCAA doesn't want high school sports being played on college campuses but they can only get there one step at a time.

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## Jersey Boss

The annual Norman v. Norman North FB game is played @ OU every year.

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## ljbab728

And when I was in school at Norman High all of our footballs were played there.

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## UrbanNorman

It sounds like this is going to be a pretty neat process.  Talks of a 5 day public charrette sometime in May, possibly June, with consultants from the National Charrette Institute in Portland.  Bill Lenertz is being discussed as the lead for the charrette.  He is the Executive Director at the NCI.

We shall see. Still much to be decided, but if it turns out anything close to this, it could be pretty special.

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## venture

> It sounds like this is going to be a pretty neat process.  Talks of a 5 day public charrette sometime in May, possibly June, with consultants from the National Charrette Institute in Portland.  Bill Lenertz is being discussed as the lead for the charrette.  He is the Executive Director at the NCI.
> 
> We shall see. Still much to be decided, but if it turns out anything close to this, it could be pretty special.


Sounds interesting. Welcome to the forum as well.  :Smile:

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## Geographer

Also, this isn't directly related to the Core Norman master plan...but there will be a Better Block Norman event happening on Main Street in a couple of months.

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## UrbanNorman

> Sounds interesting. Welcome to the forum as well.


Thanks!  Here is the Norman Transcript that provides some further commentary on the charrette, without mentioning specifics.

Norman Transcript : Council members unanimously approve contract for center city study

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## BG918

I wonder if CVS locating in Campus Corner will make the area even more attractive for high density residential which hopefully this plan recommends.  This would be on the north side between White and Apache, and the church parking lots on the west side of University.

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## boitoirich

The Norman Chamber of Commerce surveyed city council candidates on a number of topics. Question 11 concerned the Center City Master Plan. An easy-to-follow two-page PDF of the results can be found here: http://www.normanchamber.com/userupl...oter_guide.pdf

If those responses are any indication, developing anything resembling an urban village is going to face one hell of a NIMBY attack.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

So vote for Rhett jones over incumbent Greg jungman in ward 4 if we want this to become a reality

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## venture

> So vote for Rhett jones over incumbent Greg jungman in ward 4 if we want this to become a reality


He is an incumbent, so if the trend continues from the last council elections he'll be out of a job since most of them lost re-election last time.

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## BG918

Rhett Jones also lives downtown and is a supporter of the master plan.  From the Transcript:

_The study of the corridor linking Campus Corner and downtown is a primary area of interest to Jones. He said many voters may have trouble keeping up with all of the options and he hopes to aid the city in getting things done in a fiscally responsible manner._

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## Geographer

Core Norman visioning meeting TONIGHT AT 6:30 at the Episcopal Church at the corner of Dewey and Asp. Come!

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## soonerfan_in_okc

> Core Norman visioning meeting TONIGHT AT 6:30 at the Episcopal Church at the corner of Dewey and Asp. Come!


Let us know how it goes

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## Geographer

I just got back from the workshop.  It was fantastic! The upcoming actual charrette in May should be a great experience for the people of Norman.  It looked like there were at least 50 people there this evening.  Tonight, at tables of 6-7 people, we identified current strengths and current weaknesses in the area.  In addition, we did a basic visual preference workshop where everyone was given a certain number of green (good) and red (bad) stickers to place on pictures of different types of form and development.

It looks like the end result, based on what the consultants said, will be a form based code that can be implemented for the core Norman area.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

What were the types of form and development you judged? Like mix use, condos, storefronts? Just curious to know what they have in mind for the area.

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## Geographer

> What were the types of form and development you judged? Like mix use, condos, storefronts? Just curious to know what they have in mind for the area.


It was all different kinds of developments...the point of the exercise was to judge the form of each structure, regardless of use.

It was a wide variety.  It varied from buildings and environments where the structures were pulled close to the street to more car-oriented retail strip centers.  Again the focus is on the form, not the use...one of the main things was to get people to start moving away from the USE THEN FORM mindset into FORM THEN USE.  In order to get the kind of environment that people want for this area, it was stressed that form should be the main concern and then then we can plan for uses.

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## Just the facts

> I just got back from the workshop.  It was fantastic! The upcoming actual charrette in May should be a great experience for the people of Norman.  It looked like there were at least 50 people there this evening.  Tonight, at tables of 6-7 people, we identified current strengths and current weaknesses in the area.  In addition, we did a basic visual preference workshop where everyone was given a certain number of green (good) and red (bad) stickers to place on pictures of different types of form and development.
> 
> It looks like the end result, based on what the consultants said, will be a form based code that can be implemented for the core Norman area.


This is something that always amazes me about the visual preference surveys.  When people are give the choice side by side they always (and I really do mean always) pick the traditional neighborhood model, but when they write zoning codes they always pick the Euclidian model and the Euclidian model can never produce what their eyes tell them they like.  I guess the difference is when you see it with your eyes you view it from a Human perspective, but when you write it up on paper you do it from a mathematical/engineering perspective; so instead of the visually appealing 10 foot travel lane you write 12 feet because it is easier to drive with the two extra feet and you can go faster.  They never consider that those 2 extra feet make all the other things they like impossible to achieve.

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## BG918

Hopefully this allows the higher density apartment project on Asp to move forward using the form-based code.  I assume it will include provisions for buildings meeting the sidewalk, parking shielded behind or under and an emphasis on walkable interaction with the rest of the neighborhood. 

I think a project like that one getting off the ground will create demand for others like it in the area, mainly in the north part of Campus Corner south of McFarlin church.  For University I hope the code includes having this area be mixed use.  I could see that being a more retail and dining centric corridor like Asp and Buchanan, but with apartments and condos and maybe a small hotel above the street front businesses,and a parking garage that serves the entire area.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

Where would they put it all though? There aren't too many (if any) vacant lots around. Are people in this area willing to sell?

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## Geographer

Remember, we have to keep looking 20-25 years down the road.  There may not be huge redevelopment possibilities currently, but it's important to have the form based code and visioning process in place now to help guide development in the future.  It provides clear predictability for residents and developers alike.

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## Just the facts

> Remember, we have to keep looking 20-25 years down the road.  There may not be huge redevelopment possibilities currently, but it's important to have the form based code and visioning process in place now to help guide development in the future.  It provides clear predictability for residents and developers alike.


THIS is why it is called PLANNING.

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## BG918

Design charettes planned for the form-based code in central Norman:
_A series of talks on high density in Norman stalled last year, and now the city is working proactively with OU to create a plan for the city’s future within a defined corridor that is bounded by Gray Street on the north, Flood Avenue on the west, Boyd Street on the south and the BNSF Railroad on the east.

The plan includes a charrette process, to be hosted at 127 W. Main St. Three public meetings in May will garner public ideas for the vision, as well as public input on the work in progress by the design team._
Norman Transcript : Leaders to put hold on building permits in Center City Visioning project corridor

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## Geographer

I met the founder of Opticos Design this past weekend at a conference and he said his firm is excited to come back to Norman and get to work!

Opticos is one of the firms Norman/OU hired to collaborate with the Charrette Institute and the Form Based Code firm to work on the Core Norman master plan.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

> Design charettes planned for the form-based code in central Norman:
> _A series of talks on high density in Norman stalled last year, and now the city is working proactively with OU to create a plan for the citys future within a defined corridor that is bounded by Gray Street on the north, Flood Avenue on the west, Boyd Street on the south and the BNSF Railroad on the east.
> 
> The plan includes a charrette process, to be hosted at 127 W. Main St. Three public meetings in May will garner public ideas for the vision, as well as public input on the work in progress by the design team._
> Norman Transcript : Leaders to put hold on building permits in Center City Visioning project corridor


First I thought that was a bad thing, but I think it's good? Pretty much just keeps anything from being built that would screw up the master plan. Or I hope that's what it is intended to do. 


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