# OKCpedia > Restaurants & Bars >  Kd's Restaurant / Legacy Grill

## sacolton

[category=]Restaurants[/category]
[category=]Bricktown[/category]
[category=]Current[/category]
[category=]Lower Bricktown[/category]
[toc]no[/toc]
*Address:*  308 Johnny Bench Drive
*Phone:*  (405) 701-3535
*Hours:*  Mon-Thu 4 pm - 10 pm
Fri-Sat 11 am - 11 pm
Sun 11 am - 10 pm
*Development:*  Lower Bricktown
*Status:*  Opened Dec 2013
*Links:*  
Official Website
Menu
Facebook Page
Yelp
Urban Spoon
Eat Around OKC




*Information & Latest News*Operated by the Hal Smith Group
County Assessor Record
*Gallery*

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## Spartan

This is what was supposed to go there:

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## catch22

1 story?

Odd.... Steve?

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## Pete

Yes, one story.

And 10,200 square feet is a lot.  Toby Keith's is 14,000.

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## Chicken In The Rough

Suburbanization of Bricktown?

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## kevinpate

perhaps a small dining spot, and an even smaller pub, and a bit of retail?  Nice thing about shells, they are flexible little boxes.

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## onthestrip

Seems like a bit of a waste to only go one story

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## jedicurt

> Seems like a bit of a waste to only go one story


my thoughts as well... i was hoping for at least two stories... but was really thinking a 3/4 story, with the upper level (2 levels if it's 4) be residential, and the lower two floors be low end retail and restaurant

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## wschnitt

> Curious, how is that building in the picture that Nick posted one story?  Sure looks two to me.


I read that caption as being "this was what was originally planned"

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## CuatrodeMayo

> Curious, how is that building in the picture that Nick posted one story?  Sure looks two to me.


It's a fake second story (fake architecture in Bricktown, imagine that).  Spring Creek Plaza in Edmond is the same way.

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## Just the facts

> Suburbanization of Bricktown?


It will just be less that has to be torn down when we get around to fixing Lower Bricktown.

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## Watson410

> Seems like a bit of a waste to only go one story


Do you consider Toby Keith's a waste of space only being one story? Seems pretty successful to me... There wouldn't be much foot traffic on the second floor either, IMO, since the second level from Earl's Rib Palace wouldn't be connected to it. I don't see many people walking up stairs to go to one store...

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## Spartan

> It's a fake second story (fake architecture in Bricktown, imagine that).  Spring Creek Plaza in Edmond is the same way.


So that rendering is still accurate? I just recalled when that was originally proposed in 2008...

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## Just the facts

> Do you consider Toby Keith's a waste of space only being one story? Seems pretty successful to me... There wouldn't be much foot traffic on the second floor either, IMO, since the second level from Earl's Rib Palace wouldn't be connected to it. I don't see many people walking up stairs to go to one store...


The main problem with LB is that the buildings are too wide.  Instead of a single building with 100 feet of canal frontage they should of had 5 to 7 individual storefronts covering the same space.  The volume should come from depth and height, not width.

Like this except with a canal, not a street.

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## Ginkasa

Supposedly its another restaurant from the Hal Smith group.  Word on the street says its going to be a steak house with another celebrity name attached, but that name hasn't been decided yet.

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## BoulderSooner

> Do you consider Toby Keith's a waste of space only being one story? Seems pretty successful to me... There wouldn't be much foot traffic on the second floor either, IMO, since the second level from Earl's Rib Palace wouldn't be connected to it. I don't see many people walking up stairs to go to one store...


toby keith's has a second floor ..

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## Pete

Toby Keith's is 26 feet high and this one will be 22.

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## Spartan

I wasn't really following the TK Warrior responses, but did that one slip past the general past consensus that TK's I Love This Bar and Grill is in fact precisely a big EIFS waste of space?

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## CuatrodeMayo

> toby keith's has a second floor ..


More like a small mezzanine.

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## onthestrip

> Do you consider Toby Keith's a waste of space only being one story? Seems pretty successful to me... There wouldn't be much foot traffic on the second floor either, IMO, since the second level from Earl's Rib Palace wouldn't be connected to it. I don't see many people walking up stairs to go to one store...


Toby Keith's does have a sort of second story but it's a giant themed restaurant that also is a concert hall. So some heighth is needed. And Of course you wouldn't put retail on the second floor of this new building. Office or residential is what the second floor would be used for. 
Seems like a waste of canal frontage for wide, expansive, one story, single use buildings to be placed there. But hey, that's just me.

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## catch22

> Toby Keith's does have a sort of second story but it's a giant themed restaurant that also is a concert hall. So some heighth is needed. And Of course you wouldn't put retail on the second floor of this new building. Office or residential is what the second floor would be used for. 
> Seems like a waste of canal frontage for wide, expansive, one story, single use buildings to be placed there. But hey, that's just me.


That's lower bricktown for you. Harkins, Sonic (albeit multi story), Toby Keiths, Bass Pro...

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## Spartan

What do any of you guys expect for Lower Bricktown though, honestly?

I'm curious where exactly any of us are getting these expectations that quality development should be happening around downtown. What makes us feel like we have the right to demand development that doesn't harm our public investment in downtown areas? On what basis are we wanting to tell a private property owner what they can do with their property when there isn't even a political will in City Hall or BUDC or DDRC to do so?

This is just the exact same crap from the last 10-20 years. Are you all not just over it by now? Face the facts. Stop pretending this isn't Oklahoma City.

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## skanaly

I think this will be nice, but yes, i think thats just wasted space up top. Either a really tall roof, or a big attic.

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## Spartan

> I think this will be nice, but yes, i think thats just wasted space up top. Either a really tall roof, or a big attic.


It sounds like you're basing this on the rendering that I posted up there. Let me again stress that the above rendering is what was supposed to go on this site. I will be mildly surprised if the above rendering comes to fruition, since I haven't seen any renderings yet actually attached to this building permit application.

The proof will be in the pudding.

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## catch22

> What do any of you guys expect for Lower Bricktown though, honestly?
> 
> I'm curious where exactly any of us are getting these expectations that quality development should be happening around downtown.


Exactly. As long as suburban OKC continues to build itself around the automobile, we will see half-baked attempts at downtown development. Although lately, we have been getting better developments....

Without sending this thread off on a tangent, Bricktown's success and uphill struggle is it's tourism. We could probably get better development if it weren't for the tourist aspect and creating parking spaces for all of those tourists. But Bricktown's lifeline is also it's tourist traffic.

Bricktown is good, I just think it could be a lot better.

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## Skyline

I was really hoping for a new parking lot at this location.

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## Spartan

I was really hoping for a Toby Keith's I Love This Town and Parking.

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## sooner88

You all are on the right track with a new restaurant...

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## Spartan

> You all are on the right track with a new restaurant...


How about Tim McGraw's Hee-Haw Saloon and I Love My Bar Even More Than That Other Washout?

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## BDP

> I was really hoping for a new parking lot at this location.


Ha! Give USA Screenprinting a call!

The reality is that there is really NO WAY to urbanize lower bricktown at this point without a complete overhaul. That section of the canal has been totally wasted. At the end of the day, as long as it isn't surface parking, filling that lot is good. What's interesting, is that this is IT for lower bricktown. Nothing more can be added without rethinking the parking layout. The problem is though that it has been so poorly developed that I doubt any demand significant enough to rethink it will ever surface. This will be built and then it will pretty much have to wallow in mediocrity until it gets to the point where it has to be put to sleep and re-imagined. However, even that is predicated in bricktown proper getting it stuff together, filling up the canal spaces and stop wasting its available development space on more surface parking.

Soon though, we'll start to see more demand influence from residents from deep deuce. If bricktown is to have a development resurgence, that will be the key, imo.

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## catch22

> Ha! Give USA Screenprinting a call!
> 
> The reality is that there is really NO WAY to urbanize lower bricktown at this point without a complete overhaul. That section of the canal has been totally wasted. At the end of the day, as long as it isn't surface parking, filling that lot is good. What's interesting, is that this is IT for lower bricktown. Nothing more can be added without rethinking the parking layout. The problem is though that it has been so poorly developed that I doubt any demand significant enough to rethink it will ever surface. This will be built and then it will pretty much have to wallow in mediocrity until it gets to the point where it has to be put to sleep and re-imagined. However, even that is predicated in bricktown proper getting it stuff together, filling up the canal spaces and stop wasting its available development space on more surface parking.
> 
> Soon though, we'll start to see more demand influence from residents from deep deuce. If bricktown is to have a development resurgence, that will be the key, imo.


I agree with this. Looking at satellite pictures, it's difficult to fill lower bricktown in anymore....which is a shame with how much space is there. The layout destroys most reasonable ideas to fill it in. We need a creative solution.

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## Dubya61

Spartan, not just this thread, but is OKC Talk your favorite place to vent vitriol?  Really, fellas.  The only way to develop LBT, CBD, DD, SOSA, MOUSE, etc the way you want is to scrap capitalism completely, turn OKC into a city state and then nationalize everything to develop it just the way you want it.  Should you like the way a free-market economy takes your favorite district?  Not necessarily, and I agree that some restrictions should be placed on development in concert with a well-thought out plan.  Sim City, now, THAT is the way to make sure you  get just development you want, eh?

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## Larry OKC

Toby Keiths looks like a 2 story building from the outside, but it is largely a tall one-story on the inside (with the exception of Mr. Keith's private dining space behind the bar/above the kitchen area

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## BoulderSooner

> Toby Keiths looks like a 2 story building from the outside, but it is largely a tall one-story on the inside (with the exception of Mr. Keith's private dining space behind the bar/above the kitchen area


not a private dining space .(it is used for parties) but is also used daily

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## Spartan

> Spartan, not just this thread, but is OKC Talk your favorite place to vent vitriol?  Really, fellas.  The only way to develop LBT, CBD, DD, SOSA, MOUSE, etc the way you want is to scrap capitalism completely, turn OKC into a city state and then nationalize everything to develop it just the way you want it.  Should you like the way a free-market economy takes your favorite district?  Not necessarily, and I agree that some restrictions should be placed on development in concert with a well-thought out plan.  Sim City, now, THAT is the way to make sure you  get just development you want, eh?


Not at all, Dubya. In fact today I'm having a change of heart, if you can't tell from my questioning of these people's unreasonable ideas. I think we need more free market in Bricktown development, and the only way we can get that is with lower expectations, lower standards, and lower results. Vote for me.

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## catch22

> Spartan, not just this thread, but is OKC Talk your favorite place to vent vitriol?  Really, fellas.  The only way to develop LBT, CBD, DD, SOSA, MOUSE, etc the way you want is to scrap capitalism completely, turn OKC into a city state and then nationalize everything to develop it just the way you want it.  Should you like the way a free-market economy takes your favorite district?  Not necessarily, and I agree that some restrictions should be placed on development in concert with a well-thought out plan.  Sim City, now, THAT is the way to make sure you  get just development you want, eh?


Capitalism built urban environments for years until the 1950's The problem is with the mindset of car. Capitalism works in suburban environments and urban environments. It depends on the vision of the developer. The developers like Richard McKnown (spelling?) understand that a pedestrian friendly mixed-use development can provide good profit opportunities as well as long term advantages. You have developers like Chris Johnson who see that Bricktown has a high number of people visiting it, and decide to build his business there. He just doesn't understand what downtown is about, and just sees potential dollars. I'm sure Chris has good intentions, he just has a different fundamental understanding of downtown. And his development reflects that. We need more developers who understand how downtown environments work , and less who are still stuck in the suburbs trying to get a slice of the pie of downtown, without understanding the difference fully.

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## Urbanized

> Exactly. As long as suburban OKC continues to build itself around the automobile, we will see half-baked attempts at downtown development. Although lately, we have been getting better developments....
> 
> Without sending this thread off on a tangent, Bricktown's success and uphill struggle is it's tourism. We could probably get better development if it weren't for the tourist aspect and creating parking spaces for all of those tourists. But Bricktown's lifeline is also it's tourist traffic.
> 
> Bricktown is good, I just think it could be a lot better.


I disagree with the assessment that the big swaths of parking in Bricktown are primarily for "tourists." I interact with tourists, out-of-town business people, Bricktown workers and locals on a daily basis, and have for 10 years. "Tourists" mostly use the district the way many on here would like to see it used; IF THEY ARE IN A CAR AT ALL, they find a parking lot somewhere - anywhere - get out of their cars, and WALK the district. They are now the largest users of the Power Alley garage (hotel guests), followed by Bricktown employees. Locals mostly can't be bothered to use the garage, because they see it as an inconvenience and want surface parking instead.

Many tourists have told me they like downtown OKC and Bricktown specifically because they feel they don't even need a car at all when here.

Tourists are the ONLY people who utilize the trolleys, as far as I can tell. They don't gripe about walking, ever (and also never gripe about paying to park; in fact most of them think it's funny that Okies get riled up over $5 parking).

The giant swaths of parking in Bricktown are there to satisfy suburban OKC visitors who pack the place on weekends and event nights, want parking as close to their venue as possible, of course want this strip-mall style parking for nothing or next to it. They want to roll in for lunch, park a few feet away, and roll right back out. Those are the people who have created the demand, and many of those are the people who have griped about a "lack" of parking for years to anyone who would listen, creating a relatively baseless perception that drove development of even more spaces.

OKC folks should really get over viewing "tourists" or visitors in a negative light. While I agree that "tourist-Y" is not good (we need authenticity in downtown, which oddly enough most tourists would prefer anyway), touristS are just people who drop off new money in our economy without asking that much in return.

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## Larry OKC

> not a private dining space .(it is used for parties) but is also used daily


When built, that is what we were told by management...it was private dining space reserved for Mr. Keith and his invited guests. But thanks for the updated info.

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## Just the facts

Thanks for that post Catch22.  I guess the car culture is so ingrained into the general populace that they don't realize capitalism existed centuries before the automobile.  If anything, the automobile is the exact opposite of free market.  Subsidies for automakers, roads, taxpayer funded traffic enforcement, oil subsidies, wars for oil, cash for clunkers, UAW political influence, etc etc etc...  A world has been created since the 1950s that require a car.  If you don't think so, try living without one for 7 days.  So sit back and enjoy $4 gas - you don't have a choice.  So much for free-market.

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## Larry OKC

> I disagree with the assessment that the big swaths of parking in Bricktown are primarily for "tourists." I interact with tourists, out-of-town business people, Bricktown workers and locals on a daily basis, and have for 10 years. "Tourists" mostly use the district the way many on here would like to see it used; IF THEY ARE IN A CAR AT ALL, they find a parking lot somewhere, get out of their cars, and WALK the district. They are now the largest users of the Power Alley garage (hotel guests), followed by Bricktown employees. Locals mostly can't be bothered to use the garage, because they see it as an inconvenience and want surface parking.
> 
> Many tourists have told me they like downtown OKC and Bricktown specifically because they feel they don't even need a car at all when here.
> 
> Tourists are the ONLY people who utilize the trolleys, as far as I can tell. They don't gripe about walking, ever (and also never gripe about paying to park, in fact most of them think it's funny that Okies get riled up over $5 parking).
> 
> The giant swaths of parking in Bricktown are there to satisfy suburban OKC visitors who pack the place on weekends and event nights, want parking as close to their venue as possible, of course want this strip-mall style parking for nothing or next to it. Those are the people who have created the demand, and *those are the people who have griped about a "lack" of parking for years to anyone who would listen, creating a relatively baseless perception.*
> 
> OKC folks should really get over viewing "tourists" or visitors in a negative light. While I agree that "tourist-Y" is not good (we need authenticity in downtown, which oddly enough tourists would prefer anyway), touristS are just people who drop off new money in our economy without asking that much in return.


Funny how that "perception" is quickly becoming reality (even the City admits this now in recent articles by Steve)

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## Urbanized

The parking shortage problem is almost entirely on the other side of the tracks, Larry. There is rarely a shortage of spaces in Bricktown, even on the busiest of nights. Sometimes there is certainly a shortage of just-across-the-street parking, but frankly I'd be happy if it was always that way. That is the sign of a thriving area.

While I would LOVE to see centralized, structured parking added in Bricktown, it would mostly be to consolidate existing spaces, allowing for development of surface lots. The perception that there is a "shortage" in Bricktown is still that; a relatively baseless perception.

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## Just the facts

I think by 'tourist' catch22 was including anyone who doesn't live/work downtown.  A visitor from Edmond is still a tourist in Bricktown.

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## Dubya61

> Not at all, Dubya. In fact today I'm having a change of heart, if you can't tell from my questioning of these people's unreasonable ideas. I think we need more free market in Bricktown development, and the only way we can get that is with lower expectations, lower standards, and lower results. Vote for me.


Spartan, I don't think you should lower your standards -- maybe your volume, though. Just realize that unless you're the developer or city planner who has enacted codes in advance based on a credible plan for the area, you probably don't have a say in what happens there.  What you can do is snipe and declare your displeasure on a message board.  Yeah, I guess I will vote for you.  What are you running for?  The OKCTalk Court Jester?

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## mmonroe

If a certain family would pull a certain part of their body out of another part of their body, this could all be fixed.  Flat surface parking should rarely exist in my opinion, for areas like this.  Imagine these lots charging $5 - $20 depending on the event and their location, actually building a desired and much needed parking garage, the problem would be solved.  End of story.

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## Bullbear

looks as uninteresting as Toby keiths. I think that building is just horrible looking. so cheap.
if it is only going to be one story and a resteraunt then put a roof top patio on it.. at least that is a bit more interesting.. but for the most part that area of bricktown is not very interesting.. it looks cheap

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## Just the facts

> LBT is so confusing to me.  I honestly don't see a long-term vision for it.  Not without another MAPS investment.  It needs some pretty drastic corrections.


Enter the CAT D8 Urban Do-over Tool (aka The Mulligan).  We have had enough half-ass.  It is time for some full-ass.

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## OKCTransplant

> $700,000 building permit today for a 10,200 square foot shell building to be located between Harkins Theater and Toby Keith's on the canal.
> 
> Anybody know what this is for?


It's Kevin Durant's new southern cuisine restaurant with a price point slightly higher than Toby Keith's.

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## Architect2010

We just need to get rid of everything south of Reno save the plaza, The Centennial, Harkins and its accessory building, and... umm. The U-Haul building. I would care less if all the rest went.

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## Urbanized

> I think by 'tourist' catch22 was including anyone who doesn't live/work downtown.  A visitor from Edmond is still a tourist in Bricktown.


Yeah, but by that definition most retail/restaurant clusters in central OKC (Plaza, Paseo, Western Avenue, Midtown, 9th, Automobile Alley) are all primarily supported by "tourists." When any of them are busy at all, most of the people got there by automobile. The painfully slow nights are the ones where only neighborhood folks are eating'drinking/shopping.

It's going to be a long, long time before most of these places are populated enough to be busy based only on the people who live immediately around them, especially in downtown proper.

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## BDP

> The only way to develop LBT, CBD, DD, SOSA, MOUSE, etc the way you want is to scrap capitalism completely, turn OKC into a city state and then nationalize everything to develop it just the way you want it.


This is a strange response on a lot of levels. Mainly, no one even suggested any nationalization or even government influence to guide lower bricktown developers. The irony, though, is that lower bricktown would not even exist were it not for significant public investment and the developer was hand picked by a government agency. Besides that, the reality is that pure capitalism can and DOES create well thought out redevelopments that are both dense and urban that are VERY successful. At the same time, it creates a lot of uninspiring disposable developments. But, criticism of any development based on its merits is in no way inherently a criticism on the economic model that produced it. I don't even understand where that came from, especially since pure free market principles had very little to do with the development of lower bricktown in the first place.

The reality is that, in this specific case, the model used was the currently popular "public-private" model where significant public investment precedes the investment of a private investor who is hand picked by local government agencies. Public incentives were even later used to entice a tenant to locate there, one which many view as completely counter to the purpose of the original public investment. You would think that after all this risk was eliminated for the developer using public resources, that it would go above and beyond to create something special. In this case, the opposite was true and there is now very little room, if any, for capitol improvements, be they private or public, and little demand to warrant it.

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## Just the facts

Harkins could go as well.  It will back up to the new boulevard.  It should have been built with it's back against the railroad viaduct.  The fountain is where Mickey Mantle should have been extended across the canal (along with Joe Carter and Byers).  Businesses then could have then fronted these roads as they went across the property.  Each building would been 15 to 20 feet wide with the volume coming from deep lots and height.

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## BoulderSooner

> Harkins could go as well.  It will back up to the new boulevard.  It should have been built with it's back against the railroad viaduct.  The fountain is where Mickey Mantle should have been extended across the canal (along with Joe Carter and Byers).  Businesses then could have then fronted these roads as they went across the property.  Each building would been 15 to 20 feet wide with the volume coming from deep lots and height.


the BLVD behind Harkins will not be at grade .. so i'm not sure how much that matters

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## Just the facts

> the BLVD behind Harkins will not be at grade .. so i'm not sure how much that matters


It will be as it goes behind Harkins.  It is going have an intersection at Oklahoma Ave.

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## BoulderSooner

> It will be as it goes behind Harkins.  It is going have an intersection at Oklahoma Ave.


oklahoma is the last (or first) depending on which way your driving ..   intersection where the blvd will be at grade

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## Just the facts

> oklahoma is the last (or first) depending on which way your driving ..   intersection where the blvd will be at grade


It will return to at-grade as soon as it clears the canal somewhere to the east of where Joe Carter would be.  I am pretty sure there will at a minimum be an intersection at S. Walnut as well.

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## Spartan

Does anyone else think it's sad that so little of this boulevard will be at-grade?

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## Spartan

> Spartan, I don't think you should lower your standards -- maybe your volume, though. Just realize that unless you're the developer or city planner who has enacted codes in advance based on a credible plan for the area, you probably don't have a say in what happens there.  What you can do is snipe and declare your displeasure on a message board.  Yeah, I guess I will vote for you.  What are you running for?  The OKCTalk Court Jester?


I have seen the light. Now I'm waiting for all those other pesky urbanists who keep demanding standards to also catch on to this breath of enlightenment that Dubya speaketh.

But my say would be that if an area is going to develop without regard to public demands, then it should be deprived of public resources. In a perfect world, we should all be descending on Bricktown, threatening to pick up and move the Ballpark and canal to Mid-town. 

Or at least get the naming rights back...

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## mcca7596

> Does anyone else think it's sad that so little of this boulevard will be at-grade?


Yes.

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## Just the facts

The City gets naming right to the ballpark back in 13 more years.

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## BoulderSooner

> It will return to at-grade as soon as it clears the canal somewhere to the east of where Joe Carter would be.  I am pretty sure there will at a minimum be an intersection at S. Walnut as well.


It doesnt but whatever

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## kevinpate

> The City gets naming right to the ballpark back in 13 more years.


Unless of course they permit it to remain with the owners de jour.  After all, the world will have gone to seed about five years before then according to some timetables.

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## Pete

> It's Kevin Durant's new southern cuisine restaurant with a price point slightly higher than Toby Keith's.


You say this pretty emphatically...

Are you sure of this information?

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## Just the facts

> It doesnt but whatever


I'll tell you what - point me to a link that shows it being elevated for whatever distance and I will concede the point.  The only thing I have ever seen that even suggest it will be elevated is an animation done about 4 years ago.  I happen to think that once the plans are done it will be taken to grade as soon as possible so it will open the Co-op site for development and provide access to the LB parking lots in anticipation of Reno being reduced to two lanes.  Granted, that is just my guess.  We will know for sure in another year or so.

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## Urbanized

JTF, the problem is that the flyover that has to land and become the boulevard is actually higher in the air than the old I-40 when it enters LBT immediately adjacent to Bass Pro. I've been down there looking at it trying to imagine the transition and I think BoulderSooner is probably right. It would require a very steep downward incline to land it much before Harkins.

Also, it still has to stay somewhat elevated as it flies over the Bass Pro lot to accommodate the traffic that loops through down by the Land Run monument, which includes RVs and semi trailers (high clearance) and the canal itself. I'm not sure it won't be still be elevated by the time it gets to Harkins.

Next, it almost immediate would start going BELOW grade, so that it can get to the required height to make it under the railroad viaduct. They are going to be giving that crossing quite a bit more overhead clearance than Reno or Sheridan have as it goes underneath. All of that ads up to make me think the boulevard will still have quite a bit of highway character east of the viaduct, and won't interact much with LBT.

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## Pete

Guys, what do you think about this being a Kevin Durant restaurant?

Pretty big news and could turn into a great, fun place.

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## Urbanized

I thought that might have been a tongue-in-cheek comment. You're reading it as a real possibility?

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## Pete

It's a done deal but I can't reveal my source.

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## kevinpate

Oh, you and Steve and your sources, lol.

Nah, that's good news to hear.  Not only to see that grass patch turn into something, but to see a top notch player tie himself to it in a community when some (very wrongly it turns out) thought he would bail at the first opportunity.  

Good on him.

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## Pete

They don't stay sources if you reveal who they are!

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## Dubya61

Gosh, now we'll have to debate whether or not it's a blight on LBT.  KD:  Good.  Low density building with parking lot:  Bad.  Choices, choices.

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## Pete

Let's make this easy:  That spot was always going to be a 1- or 2-story structure of about this size.

So given that, I'll just be happy that KD is investing in OKC and lending his name to something that will sure to be a draw.  Could become the de-facto Thunder fan hang-out.

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## kevinpate

That's easy.  New dining offering v. grass patch that had lots of potential, but no one willing to make something happen other than leave it a grass patch.  I vote Let's eat!

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## Stew

That's awesome.

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## Urban Pioneer

I like this.  A KD hangout.  Way cool.  Be awesome if they incorporated a basketball court... but that would take up too many parking spaces.

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## BoulderSooner

> I'll tell you what - point me to a link that shows it being elevated for whatever distance and I will concede the point.  The only thing I have ever seen that even suggest it will be elevated is an animation done about 4 years ago.  I happen to think that once the plans are done it will be taken to grade as soon as possible so it will open the Co-op site for development and provide access to the LB parking lots in anticipation of Reno being reduced to two lanes.  Granted, that is just my guess.  We will know for sure in another year or so.


The chances of Reno ever being two lane are slim to none

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## Spartan

I love this. KD is making himself a permanent fixture in town. Wow.

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## Just the facts

> The chances of Reno ever being two lane are slim to none


So you don't think the Bricktown Strategic Plan will be put into effect?

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## Spartan

Yeah, Boulder. The plan is for Reno's excess lane capacity to be restriped into angled or parallel street parking.

----------


## Richard at Remax

LIke i said in boulevard design thread, the guy who works for Hogan that runs the building we own a unit in and is designing/had a hand in this project said there will be some sort of wall that will hide the theater/toby keiths. And he said it will be a few feet below grade at the theater cause there is a slight elevation chang from the toby keiths parking lot to the theater. and are sill hoping for an intersection at oklahoma. hope that makes sense but take that for what its worth. not reporting that's the final design.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Yeah, Boulder. The plan is for Reno's excess lane capacity to be restriped into angled or parallel street parking.


That is bricktowns plan   Little to no chance of it happening   Just like no chance of broadway becoming 2 lane

----------


## Spartan

> That is bricktowns plan   Little to no chance of it happening   Just like no chance of broadway becoming 2 lane


Holy crap, what a ray of sunshine you are. I remember a lot of things that people had said had little to no chance of happening, even as they were obviously happening. Like the NBA, Devon Tower, MAPS3 passage, MAPS3 post-election changes, a downtown housing boom, Whole Foods, NW9th Street, renovating historic buildings, the Bricktown Canal, an OKC streetcar system, I could go on for a long time. All of these were (or will be in the streetcar's case) the most successful ideas we've had, and these bold, powerful ideas didn't gain strong public and city support without a lot of prominent skeptics along the way.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Holy crap, what a ray of sunshine you are. I remember a lot of things that people had said had little to no chance of happening, even as they were obviously happening. Like the NBA, Devon Tower, MAPS3 passage, MAPS3 post-election changes, a downtown housing boom, Whole Foods, NW9th Street, renovating historic buildings, the Bricktown Canal, an OKC streetcar system, I could go on for a long time. All of these were (or will be in the streetcar's case) the most successful ideas we've had, and these bold, powerful ideas didn't gain strong public and city support without a lot of prominent skeptics along the way.


the city is already on record that broadway will not be 2 lane with angled parking on both sides ...   at best it will two lanes south and 1 lane north with angled parking on 1 side ..   

and i would expect the city will have the same thoughts on reno

i will say i am just being a realist ..  with out any judgement on whether 2 lane streets would be better or not

----------


## catch22

> I think by 'tourist' catch22 was including anyone who doesn't live/work downtown.  A visitor from Edmond is still a tourist in Bricktown.


That's what I was getting at, thank you. The weekend dinner trip to Bricktown to see the big city lights people.

----------


## G.Walker

Sources: Eric Maynor is considering opening up a Bar & Grill, but it will be in Edmond.

----------


## BDP

> Let's make this easy:  That spot was always going to be a 1- or 2-story structure of about this size.
> 
> So given that, I'll just be happy that KD is investing in OKC and lending his name to something that will sure to be a draw.  Could become the de-facto Thunder fan hang-out.


Totally agree. There really wasn't much potential for this lot other than something like this and nothing could be done on it that would have "turned around" the development approach of Lower Bricktown. That ship has sailed. And if it actually interacts with the canal instead of ignoring it as much of LBT does, it could actually be a real improvement to the canal as a whole.

I guess the only thing to really lament is that this could have been cool on the corner lot that's getting the surface parking treatment. It would at least have more of a chance to create some flow from Micky Mantle to the canal and help the canal properties up there...

----------


## Spartan

> the city is already on record that broadway will not be 2 lane with angled parking on both sides ...   at best it will two lanes south and 1 lane north with angled parking on 1 side ..   
> 
> and i would expect the city will have the same thoughts on reno
> 
> i will say i am just being a realist ..  with out any judgement on whether 2 lane streets would be better or not


Fair enough.

----------


## MDot

> Sources: Eric Maynor is considering opening up a Bar & Grill, but it will be in Edmond.


Nice.

----------


## jedicurt

> Sources: Eric Maynor is considering opening up a Bar & Grill, but it will be in Edmond.


he might want to wait and see if he is still in OKC next season

----------


## Bellaboo

A lot of times it's just a restuarant group buying a players name rights for their establishment.

----------


## MDot

> he might want to wait and see if he is still in OKC next season


I think he will still be here next season since he missed most of this season. The 2013-2014 season is the one he needs to worry about I think.

It's confusing how it works out that way but that's what I've heard.

----------


## BrettM2

> I think he will still be here next season since he missed most of this season. The 2013-2014 season is the one he needs to worry about I think.
> 
> It's confusing how it works out that way but that's what I've heard.


He's under contract through June 2013.

----------


## jedicurt

> He's under contract through June 2013.


but there were enough rumors that teams were interested in him before he hurt his knee this year... a trade is always possible

----------


## BrettM2

> but there were enough rumors that teams were interested in him before he hurt his knee this year... a trade is always possible


Absolutely a possibility. He's an upgrade for several teams, so there will probably be interest. Just depends on if OKC can keep him. If so, I think we resign him. If he wants more than we can offer, a trade may net us a draft pick or another back up PG. I don't think we'll just let him walk away, but it isn't a one-sided decision.

----------


## MDot

> He's under contract through June 2013.


Yeah, I know. I shouldn't have opened my mouth because now I'm confused about what I heard.

----------


## Steve

How will you guys feel if this Durant restaurant report is true but the building is designed to match the one that is home to Earl's BBQ and the ice cream shop?

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

Meh.  Par for the course in Lesser Bricktown.  

I'll put it this way:  I'd be less upset if it matched those buildings than if it matched TK's.

----------


## kevinpate

> How will you guys feel if this Durant restaurant report is true but the building is designed to match the one that is home to Earl's BBQ and the ice cream shop?


That would not bother me at all.  On the other hand, being next to TK's, I wouldn't flip if it complemented that, both being on a lower elevation than Earl's and points west.  But if I had my druthers, looking like Earl's or Sonic HQ would be the druthers.

----------


## Spartan

> How will you guys feel if this Durant restaurant report is true but the building is designed to match the one that is home to Earl's BBQ and the ice cream shop?


I would be disappointed, but I probably wouldn't criticize the project out of deference to #35.

----------


## Urbanized

> but there were enough rumors that teams were interested in him before he hurt his knee this year... a trade is always possible


Fisher's contract ends this year, and while it was a good move to pick him up, doubtful they'll re-sign him next. If Maynor is healthy next year he'll get his job back and they'll continue to bring Reggie Jackson along. If they can't afford to re-sign Maynor after re-upping (hopefully both) Harden and Ibaka, they can deal Maynor. Again, assuming he's healthy, he'll be appealing to a lot of teams. I think he's good enough to start on 6-10 teams in the league.

Either way, Fisher will not be a complication. That's the beauty of the way they picked him up. No risk to anyone.

----------


## betts

_Steve, you were being coy:_

Thunder star Kevin Durant is preparing to open a restaurant in Lower Bricktown, just a short walk from the Chesapeake Energy Arena where he is routinely greeted by a devoted fan base of 18,000.  The restaurant is being developed by Randy Hogan and will be operated by the Hal Smith Restaurant Group. A building permit filed this week shows the $700,000 restaurant will be one-story tall (similar to an adjoining building that is home to Earl's Rib Palace), 10,000 square feet, and will be located just west of Toby Keith's I Love this Bar and Grill (also operated by the Hal Smith Restaurant Group).


Read more: http://newsok.com/okc-thunders-kevin...#ixzz1rJHjT1Dg

----------


## Steve

Pete scooped me.

----------


## Just the facts

One story is disappointing but at least it replaces some grass.

----------


## Larry OKC

> The City gets naming right to the ballpark back in 13 more years.


really? Do you have a link on that? they weren't given away to the team in perpetuity???

----------


## Larry OKC

> Let's make this easy:  That spot was always going to be a 1- or 2-story structure of about this size.
> 
> So given that, I'll just be happy that KD is investing in OKC and lending his name to something that will sure to be a draw.  Could become the de-facto Thunder fan hang-out.





> A lot of times it's just a restuarant group buying a players name rights for their establishment.


This sounds like it is the case, from Steve's article...



> It was a deal I couldn't pass up, Durant said. That's something in Oklahoma City that I always wanted to do  No matter what's going to happen, my name is going to be clear, and *I'm not putting up money or nothing like that.* So it was a perfect deal.

----------


## Rover

The Kevin Durant brand is worth a lot of money these days.  Him lending his name save the enterprise immeasurable amounts of advertising dollars and greatly enhances the odds for significant success.  And, his name is growing even bigger than ever outside of OKC, so it will draw out of towners at a greater pace.  This is good for KD, Hal Smith, and OKC.

----------


## BDP

> How will you guys feel if this Durant restaurant report is true but the building is designed to match the one that is home to Earl's BBQ and the ice cream shop?


I'm kind of indifferent to how it looks, as long as it interacts with the canal better than anything else does on that side of Reno. If it has no canal patio or bar, it will be a lost opportunity.

----------


## Urbanized

> I'm kind of indifferent to how it looks, as long as it interacts with the canal better than anything else does on that side of Reno. If it has no canal patio or bar, it will be a lost opportunity.


Agree 100%, but it sounds like it might be too late for that.

----------


## catch22

> Agree 100%, but it sounds like it might be too late for that.


Despite having walked by Toby Keith's 200 times in my life, I just realized yesterday that patio does not open up to the sidewalk, or at least was open-air to the sidewalk... The patio is enclosed in glass with zero access to the canal. Is this developer the same? I know the operator is Hal Smith, the same guy, so I'd say it will be a KD-version of Toby Keiths.

"KD's I love this 35 and Grill" ?

----------


## BDP

> Despite having walked by Toby Keith's 200 times in my life, I just realized yesterday that patio does not open up to the sidewalk, or at least was open-air to the sidewalk... The patio is enclosed in glass with zero access to the canal.


Yep, it's weird. I guess it could be changed, but it's been sitting there ignoring the canal for a long time now...

----------


## Urbanized

Same developer and same restaurant group. The patio at Toby's used to be open air, but they enclosed it with glass so that they could have more climate-controlled seating. They were averse to bringing the patio all the way to the water front because there is a lot of pre-existing infrastructure under where the patio would have had to go, which would have had to be re-located or built over in such a way that it could be easily accessed. I can't remember if it is sewer or water main.

I'm not aware of the same restrictions for the KD site.

----------


## soonerguru

Trying desperately not to be a negative Nelly here, but Hal Smith Restaurants offer conveyer belt food, in my opinion. How are they going to make this menu differentiated? It will probably offer the same steaks and chops one can already find better in other Bricktown establishments. Hope desperately to be wrong on this.

----------


## MDot

> Trying desperately not to be a negative Nelly here, but Hal Smith Restaurants offer conveyer belt food, in my opinion. How are they going to make this menu differentiated? It will probably offer the same steaks and chops one can already find better in other Bricktown establishments. Hope desperately to be wrong on this.


Someone always has to play the role of the bad guy who tries to brings everyone's spirit down, whether it be on purpose or not, and that guy just happens to be you in this thread.

Hand clap to you for stepping up to the plate. =)

(I'm just being sarcastic (incase my response upsets you)

----------


## Bellaboo

> Trying desperately not to be a negative Nelly here, but Hal Smith Restaurants offer conveyer belt food, in my opinion. How are they going to make this menu differentiated? It will probably offer the same steaks and chops one can already find better in other Bricktown establishments. Hope desperately to be wrong on this.


I think Hal Smith Group is a pretty good value for the cost.....I'd be fine if it's just another Charlestons with KD's name.

----------


## Rover

Somebody must like the Hal Smith restaurants...they seem to always be busy when I go...both here and Wichita.  I enjoy their food, but I don't consider them my "special event" restaurants, except for Mahogany.  I bet they will put a fine enough product out at KD's Court as they are pretty smart operators.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Trying desperately not to be a negative Nelly here, but Hal Smith Restaurants offer conveyer belt food, in my opinion. How are they going to make this menu differentiated? It will probably offer the same steaks and chops one can already find better in other Bricktown establishments. Hope desperately to be wrong on this.


so mahogany prime/louie's/mama roja/red rock/charlestons all have the same food?

----------


## Bill Robertson

> Somebody must like the Hal Smith restaurants...they seem to always be busy when I go...both here and Wichita.  I enjoy their food, but I don't consider them my "special event" restaurants, except for Mahogany.  I bet they will put a fine enough product out at KD's Court as they are pretty smart operators.


Yep. Toby Keith's seems to get knocked a lot on this board. Go there and see how long it takes you to get a table any Friday or Saturday night between 6 and 8. Fairly full most other times I've been there also.

----------


## Bullbear

> Yep. Toby Keith's seems to get knocked a lot on this board. Go there and see how long it takes you to get a table any Friday or Saturday night between 6 and 8. Fairly full most other times I've been there also.


Mcdonalds usually has a line at the drive-thru. Doesn't mean the food is good.  Some people like cookie cutter food joints where others prefer something else. I think Koby Teeths buiilding is just ugly with no character or charm. I have never ate there and anyone I have talked to who has said it was just OK. I just hope that the KD version next door will have a bit more character and not just look like a boring box like Koby Teeths. a rooftop patio would be nice.

----------


## Rover

Good food is very subjective.  As well, the food market is like every other market...highly segmented.  Hal Smith restaurants know the segments they serve.  Mahogany is anything but cookie cutter.  The food is generally excellent there.  Red Rock is not trying to be a gourmet restaurant but is a casual mid-upper scale establishment with nice variations of familiar foods and a fun atmosphere with an excellent view.  Mama Roja's is very average Mexican cuisine, in my opinion, but then again, there aren't any true and good Mexican restaurants on the north side in OKC.  Charlestons is a better version of Houstons....great salads and other lunches in an nice atmosphere.  

I am sure that KD isn't going to be a gourmet upscale restaurant.  If you want pretentious, go somewhere else.  If you want avaunt guard cuisine, well, good luck finding that in OKC anyway.  If you want good food, fun/pleasant atmospheres, and moderately upscale, go to most Hal Smith places. 

Bottom line is that I would be willing to bet KD's will be a success and around for a long time.

And to compare this restaurant, or any of the Hal Smith food to McDonalds is more hyperbole.  Using that logic, anything successful has to be "cookie cutter".  LOL and simple but WRONG logic application.  The only good places then are starved for business.

And, for the building, two story restaurants are hard to manage....not impossible, but hard.  If this is a single use building, it is understandable that it is one story.  However, I hope it opens to a patio on the canal so that more energy is created on the canal.  It is way too calm now.

----------


## Bullbear

Well of course it isn't McDonalds. it was an extreme comment a bit tongue in cheek. My point is just because a place is busy on a friday and saturday doesn't mean its much to brag about. many middle of the road type of joints are busy. just not my Scene. My point is I would rather it be a little different. Hal Smith definately knows his market and has a variety of levels of Cuisine. Some I am a fan of others I am not it is just my opinion. It is difficult to run a multi-level establishment but I would love a roof top terrace for drinks. I know it wont happen here but I can dream. But I agree with you on the patio. It is a total waste to have canal front property and not have a nice patio.

----------


## FritterGirl

All I've got to say is if they are doing "upscale Southern" cuisine, I hope the menu looks a lot like this: http://www.screendoordallas.com/menu.html

Hal Smith, are you reading?

----------


## Ginkasa

> Well of course it isn't McDonalds. it was an extreme comment a bit tongue in cheek. My point is just because a place is busy on a friday and saturday doesn't mean its much to brag about. many middle of the road type of joints are busy. just not my Scene. My point is I would rather it be a little different. Hal Smith definately knows his market and has a variety of levels of Cuisine. Some I am a fan of others I am not it is just my opinion. It is difficult to run a multi-level establishment but I would love a roof top terrace for drinks. I know it wont happen here but I can dream. But I agree with you on the patio. It is a total waste to have canal front property and not have a nice patio.



Not every restaurant can be a high-concept, high-dollar place.  Sometimes I want Texas Roadhouse instead of Red Prime (and more often, I can only afford the one and not the other).  Also, as Rover stated, opinions are going to differ on whether a restaurant is "middle of the road" or not.

----------


## Bullbear

> Not every restaurant can be a high-concept, high-dollar place.  Sometimes I want Texas Roadhouse instead of Red Prime (and more often, I can only afford the one and not the other).  Also, as Rover stated, opinions are going to differ on whether a restaurant is "middle of the road" or not.


Notice I said that is my opinion

----------


## Ginkasa

> Notice I said that is my opinion


And that was mine.  Yay, discussion boards.

----------


## soonerguru

Hal Smith knows how to make money selling food to Okies.

----------


## Skyline

Isn't this going to be a sports bar concept?

Does Hal Smith operate a true sports bar?... I don't think he does, so I'm guessing they will go all out and make this one of a kind and the best sports bar in Okc. I think many people have been calling for more / better sports bars in Okc especially downtown / bricktown for a few years now. This should give the people what they want. 

Think something like a better version of Buffalo Wild Wings / only with KD's name attached to it.

----------


## onthestrip

> Isn't this going to be a sports bar concept?
> 
> Does Hal Smith operate a true sports bar?... I don't think he does, so I'm guessing they will go all out and make this one of a kind and the best sports bar in Okc. I think many people have been calling for more / better sports bars in Okc especially downtown / bricktown for a few years now. This should give the people what they want. 
> 
> Think something like a better version of Buffalo Wild Wings / only with KD's name attached to it.


I'm with you on hoping for better sports bars. There really aren't many options. Louie's has done a great job of saturating and watering down the sports bar market. It seems like theyve stifled any competition by opening on every block. I would think someone would have noticed the success of Republic by know and replicated something like that somewhere else. All in all, there aren't many options to have great sports viewing while enjoying food and a drink, without smelling like an ashtray.

----------


## Bullbear

> I'm with you on hoping for better sports bars. There really aren't many options. Louie's has done a great job of saturating and watering down the sports bar market. It seems like theyve stifled any competition by opening on every block. I would think someone would have noticed the success of Republic by know and replicated something like that somewhere else. All in all, there aren't many options to have great sports viewing while enjoying food and a drink, without smelling like an ashtray.


Well since Louie's is a Hal Smith project I am hoping KD's isn't just a Louie's with KD memorabilia instead of a variety of other stuff the way Louie's is now. I'd like them to at least try to make an origional space. The city does need more places to have brew and food and watch a game without all the smoke. Would be great if we Finally got on board with no smoking in Bars like most other Cities.

----------


## dankrutka

The only really good local sports bars IMHO are Republic and Brix.

----------


## Pete

Let's please get back to the subject, which is the new Kevin Durant Restaurant.

If you want to discuss the smoking laws -- and they are important -- please start a new thread for that.


Thanks.

----------


## twade

[moved to new smoking thread]

----------


## Ginkasa

> Let's please get back to the subject, which is the new Kevin Durant Restaurant.
> 
> If you want to discuss the smoking laws -- and they are important -- please start a new thread for that.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Per the above from Pete, here's the correct place to continue discussion about smoking laws, etc.

So, anyway, I'm pretty excited about this new restaurant.  I'm always up for something new in Bricktown.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

As if drinking or eating fattening foods don't kill us....

----------


## Spartan

I can't eat fast food for you.

----------


## warreng88

Hogan plots new Bricktown building for two restaurants
By Brianna Bailey
Journal Record
Oklahoma City reporter - Contact 405-278-2847	
Posted: 06:06 PM Wednesday, April 18, 2012

OKLAHOMA CITY – Developer Randy Hogan unveiled plans Wednesday for a 10,000-square-foot building he plans to build in Bricktown to house two new restaurants, including one bearing the name of Oklahoma City Thunder star Kevin Durant.

Hogan shared preliminary designs for a brick building overlooking the Bricktown Canal with the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority, but declined to discuss specifics about the restaurants.

“We don’t really talk about tenants until all the I’s are dotted and the T’s are crossed,” Hogan told the authority.

Durant has spoken publicly about plans to put his name on one of the restaurants, which would be operated by Hal Smith Restaurant Group.

The new building would be between the Harkins Bricktown 16 movie theater and Toby Keith’s I Love This Bar and Grill, which is also operated by Hal Smith Restaurant Group.

One of the building’s two restaurant tenants would have an enclosed patio overlooking the Bricktown Canal.

“It’s a great view,” Hogan said.

A contractor filed for a $700,000 building permit to begin work on the new restaurant building earlier this month, according to city records.

Inspired by stone and brick architecture in Aspen, Colo., Rees Associates Inc. is designing the new restaurant development.
Hogan hopes to break ground on the project this spring and have construction completed in about 12 months, he said.

----------


## Beastboii

So wait, two resturaunts?im confused

----------


## Just the facts

Sounds like two stories as well.  Now I have to spend the rest of the night looking up brick and stone architecture in Aspen.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

Lloyd: What the hell are we doing here, Harry? We gotta get out of this town! 
Harry: Oh yeah, and go where? Where are we gonna go? 
Lloyd: I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen. 
Harry: Oh, I don't know, Lloyd. The French are assholes.

----------


## Patrick

> “We don’t really talk about tenants until all the I’s are dotted and the T’s are crossed,” Hogan told the authority.


What a joke.  Randy Hogan is such a loser.  This is the same guy that promised us a first class urban development in Bricktown, and won over Urban Renewal's selection for this project, over then competing developer Moshe Tal (who had a partnership with David Cordish, one of the better urban developers of entertainment districts in the nation), through using good ole boy network tactics and lies.   Let's see, he first promised us an Edwards Cinema with 22+ screens and the largest IMAX theater in the region, he released photos of his development showing multi-level buildings looking much like an extension of the north canal, he promised themed restaurants like Dick Clark's American Bandstand Grill and others (glad these didn't occur anyways, but you get my point), he promised a Sega Gameworks, and the list goes on and on.  So for him to say that he doesn't talk about tenants until leases are signed is just a flat out lie, because that's exactly what he's done for years and years with his Bricktown development disaster. 1 level wasted space buildings sporting Sonic and other fast food establishments as well as office space and condos for the corporate elite, were only part of the plan later after his plan was already accepted.  He even tried to claim that he was part of the Torchmark Corp, a Fortune 500 company, that he claimed was his financial backer.  What a joke.  Where is this financial backing now?  Whatever happened to Torchmark? 

Just for fun, here's a link to the original proposal site.  This is what we were promised: http://www.specialtyretail.net/issue...inments_OK.htm

And here's the pictures of what Randy Hogan promised us. Notice it looks much different from the 1 story buildings of today:

----------


## king183

> Sounds like two stories as well.  Now I have to spend the rest of the night looking up brick and stone architecture in Aspen.


It's not. The renderings I've seen clearly show it to be 1 story.  I don't think people on here are going to be very happy with the architecture.  It looks like a typical strip mall building with larger windows. Fits in with lower Bricktown.


Edit:  See here.

----------


## pickles

> It's not. The renderings I've seen clearly show it to be 1 story.  I don't think people on here are going to be very happy with the architecture.  It looks like a typical strip mall building with larger windows. Fits in with lower Bricktown.
> 
> 
> Edit:  See here.


I am typically more lenient than most here regarding design standards, but Hogan should probably be run out of town on a rail.  This is shameful.

----------


## Just the facts

> It's not. The renderings I've seen clearly show it to be 1 story.  I don't think people on here are going to be very happy with the architecture.  It looks like a typical strip mall building with larger windows. Fits in with lower Bricktown.
> 
> 
> Edit:  See here.


Yep, that sucks.  Thank goodness I didn't get my hopes up (I know better by now).  BTW - someone needs to warn those two senior citizens they are about walk right into the canal.

----------


## dankrutka

HOW DO NONE OF THESE BUSINESSES HAVE PATIOS OPENED UP TO THE CANAL?!? The stupidity is infuriating! Terrible design and project.

----------


## king183

> Yep, that sucks.  Thank goodness I didn't get my hopes up (I know better by now).  BTW - someone needs to warn those two senior citizens they are about walk right into the canal.


Personally, I'm chalking up lower Bricktown as a complete loss with regards to urban architecture.  We should no longer be concerned or interested in it--it's done for from that perspective.

----------


## onthestrip

Steve just tweeted a rendering of it. Its one story and doesnt even show a patio...which is joke. To not even have a patio on canal frontage...thats unbelievable.

----------


## jn1780

> It's not. The renderings I've seen clearly show it to be 1 story.  I don't think people on here are going to be very happy with the architecture.  It looks like a typical strip mall building with larger windows. Fits in with lower Bricktown.
> 
> 
> Edit:  See here.


It looks like a copy of the building that Marble Slab and Earls is in.

----------


## betts

> What a joke.  Randy Hogan is such a loser.  This is the same guy that promised us a first class urban development in Bricktown, and won over Urban Renewal's selection for this project, over then competing developer Moshe Tal (who had a partnership with David Cordish, one of the better urban developers of entertainment districts in the nation), through using good ole boy network tactics and lies.   Let's see, he first promised us an Edwards Cinema with 22+ screens and the largest IMAX theater in the region, he released photos of his development showing multi-level buildings looking much like an extension of the north canal, he promised themed restaurants like Dick Clark's American Bandstand Grill and others (glad these didn't occur anyways, but you get my point), he promised a Sega Gameworks, and the list goes on and on.  So for him to say that he doesn't talk about tenants until leases are signed is just a flat out lie, because that's exactly what he's done for years and years with his Bricktown development disaster. 1 level wasted space buildings sporting Sonic and other fast food establishments as well as office space and condos for the corporate elite, were only part of the plan later after his plan was already accepted.  He even tried to claim that he was part of the Torchmark Corp, a Fortune 500 company, that he claimed was his financial backer.  What a joke.  Where is this financial backing now?  Whatever happened to Torchmark? 
> 
> Just for fun, here's a link to the original proposal site.  This is what we were promised: http://www.specialtyretail.net/issue...inments_OK.htm
> 
> And here's the pictures of what Randy Hogan promised us. Notice it looks much different from the 1 story buildings of today:


I'm not sure it would have mattered.  The above buildings just look like a Disneyworld version of something.  They may have had a few more stories, but I don't think it would have looked much better.  I agree that Lower Bricktown is a sad place, architecturally.  But, this new restaurant will barely be visible.  There's no way it was going to save LBT regardless.

----------


## soonerguru

Hogan may be a total scumbag, and his lower Bricktown development is total crap, but he's honestly the only person who has succeeded in selling downtown condos in OKC.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Hogan may be a total scumbag, and his lower Bricktown development is total crap, but he's honestly the only person who has succeeded in selling downtown condos in OKC.


not true ...   as i am someone that lives in a 4 story condo building that has been completely sold for several years



i will also say i believe that the theatre was under contract ... and then was the delayed because of several lawsuits

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> it's not. The renderings i've seen clearly show it to be 1 story.  I don't think people on here are going to be very happy with the architecture.  It looks like a typical strip mall building with larger windows. Fits in with lower bricktown.
> 
> 
> Edit:  See here.


wtf!?!?

----------


## Pete



----------


## G.Walker

People complained about when they were going to put something on that vacant lot, then somebody stepped up to put something on that vacant lot, and people are still complaining, go figure. Reminds me of the same conversations re Chris Johnson's House of Bedlam development on the canal.

Hogan's building is for a restaurant people, a restaurant. I wouldn't expect more for a restaurant.

----------


## sroberts24

I know Mr. Hogan and worked for him for a year at their management office in Lower Bricktown.  He is in no way a scumbag! He is a really good guy and was really great towards me and my wife and gave me a great job while I was still in school.  I can't say enough about the guy! 

Yes what has been developed in LB isn't structurally what we all want to see for the area but it is something, and that is better than nothing.  And it has arguably been the most successful development in Bricktown.  

I had also heard the the Aloft was originally planned to be next to the land run monuments but the city vetoed that because they thought it would cover the land run monuments.  That may have changed some people's views of LB as a whole, maybe not.

----------


## Just the facts

doing something =/= doing the right thing.

----------


## onthestrip

> Hogan's building is for a restaurant people, a restaurant. I wouldn't expect more for a restaurant.


You can and should expect more, especially a patio. How do you have a restaurant on the canal and not have patio dining? Absurd really. I just hope that they will have one and the rendering isnt showing it.

----------


## betts

I was once at a home tour at the same time as a local architect. He leaned over and said to me, "Oh to have their money and my taste!"  Perhaps that's what we're dealing with here.  Maybe this all looks good to Randy Hogan et al. Obviously people have differing tastes, and perhaps lower Bricktown was someone's idea of beautiful.  It is true that the Centennial condos sell really quickly.  It's a sterilized version of urban living you get there, and it may be that in a city where people aren't accustomed to living in an urban area, it feels safe.  If you're used to suburban "North Dallas" style architecture, this looks good perhaps.

----------


## Larry OKC

> People complained about when they were going to put something on that vacant lot, then somebody stepped up to put something on that vacant lot, and people are still complaining, go figure. Reminds me of the same conversations re Chris Johnson's House of Bedlam development on the canal.
> 
> Hogan's building is for a restaurant people, a restaurant. *I wouldn't expect more for a restaurant.*


Why not???

----------


## Just the facts

The problem with low standards is that they are usually met.

----------


## sooner88

How is Hogan a scumbag?  Because he is not building what you all want?  I know him very well and know that he is anything but a "scumbag". The proposals at the beginning of LBT were all plans that were followed through on until they failed for different reasons (Edwards theatre, gameworks, etc)

----------


## Larry OKC

What do you call what can be typical developer bait-n-switch? Presenting renderings in their proposals to get the job and the final product bearing little resemblance to what was pitched??? You know, saying they are going to build what people want and then don't.

----------


## BDP

> Hogan's building is for a restaurant people, a restaurant. I wouldn't expect more for a restaurant.


?

Why not? There are many examples of restaurants in interesting developments all over the place. But this is different. As a tax payer, you actually invested in this property. If there were a case where you SHOULD expect more, this is it.

However, like I said before, the boat has sailed on lower bricktown. To do a development right down there now would almost look out of place and only server to shame the rest of it.

We need to learn from this though. We never should have given the canal to a developer that was going to totally ignore it. We need to acknowledge that we seem to have had some bad luck with a lot of developments to which we have given significant public assistance. It has worked out sometimes, but the amount of unimpressive results seems to warrant some reevaluation of the process and some better oversight in the future. We can all easily point out how much better the city is before these projects, but I'm afraid any competitive advantage gained will be short lived as more ambitious projects are taken on in the region and that support for public investment in other developments will be tempered as a result of some of the uninspiring results we have had.

The reality is that mid-town and uptown now have most of the potential and, in a lot of ways, are already more interesting districts to visit than lower bricktown.

----------


## BDP

> The above buildings just look like a Disneyworld version of something.


True, but it certainly had a lot more space for a better mix and density of tenants that Hogan could probably be leasing now. As it is now, it still looks fairly disneyfied, albeit half assed, and LBT is pretty much done.

----------


## Larry OKC

Having lived 10 miles from Disney property and having a season pass to the Magic Kingdom/EPCOT (was out there at least once a month if not more) back in my high school/college days, I would welcome anything Disneyesque. Certainly an improvement over what is being proposed now.

----------


## BDP

> Having lived 10 miles from Disney property and having a season pass to the Magic Kingdom/EPCOT (was out there at least once a month if not more) back in my high school/college days, I would welcome anything Disneyesque. Certainly an improvement over what is being proposed now.


Yeah. If that's the choice, I would take it, too. And honestly, I would just take anything that had more density of leaseable space at this point and maybe at least acknowledged the existence of the canal.

----------


## Just the facts

> Yeah. If that's the choice, I would take it, too. And honestly, *I would just take anything that had more density of leaseable space at this point and maybe at least acknowledged the existence of the canal*.


Why? The customers all arrive by car on the other side of the building.  That is the real failure of Lower Bricktown.  People arrive at Upper Bricktown by car also, but they park in a garage and walk to their destination.  If Lower Bricktown had built a large parking garage instead of 20 acres of surface parking the canal would have been the focus.

----------


## BDP

> Why?


Because then there would be more stuff to do. Strange, but I think we said the same thing. If a garage was built instead of surface parking, that would allow for more leasable space configured more densely. leading to more attractions and making it worth driving to in the first place.

----------


## Just the facts

BDP - I understand that and you understand that (and I venture to say that most of OKCTalk understands that) - but Randy Hogan doesn't understand that.  The LB mistake was made long ago and I am just waiting 15 more years for the Lower Bricktown Business Improvement District plan (ala Meridian and I-240) to be annouced so they can find a way to 'fix' it - when the solution is soooooo simple and could be put in effect today.  Make people walk and density will take care of itself.

----------


## soonerguru

> How is Hogan a scumbag?  Because he is not building what you all want?  I know him very well and know that he is anything but a "scumbag". The proposals at the beginning of LBT were all plans that were followed through on until they failed for different reasons (Edwards theatre, gameworks, etc)


You're right. He seems like a nice guy. I was trying to point out that he's the only guy who has truly succeeded in selling downtown condos. Not a fan of his development project, and I fervently supported him over Moshe Tal. 

Hogan is not scummy, he just overpromises and underdelivers, as he has on most of his development projects. But he was able to sell downtown condos!

----------


## G.Walker

The harsh reality of it, is that there are more people who don't care about how Lower Bricktown is developed, than the people who do.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> You're right. He seems like a nice guy. I was trying to point out that he's the only guy who has truly succeeded in selling downtown condos. Not a fan of his development project, and I fervently supported him over Moshe Tal. 
> 
> Hogan is not scummy, he just overpromises and underdelivers, as he has on most of his development projects. But he was able to sell downtown condos!


he is not the only guys that has succeeded in selling downtown condos

----------


## dankrutka

Again, he's building next to a nice canal and not even putting a patio outside of his building. How can this guy take pride in himself professionally? What a joke of a development. I would much rather this land remained vacant until at least an average developer could get ahold of it. It's dumbfounding.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Again, he's building next to a nice canal and not even putting a patio outside of his building. How can this guy take pride in himself professionally? What a joke of a development. I would much rather this land remained vacant until at least an average developer could get ahold of it. It's dumbfounding.


Maybe Hal Smith Group requested it without a patio ?

----------


## Bill Robertson

> Maybe Hal Smith Group requested it without a patio ?


 Or maybe they looked at the fact that their future neighbors enclosed their patio because it does better business wise enclosed than it did open. It is a business after all.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

Look closer.  The building does have a patio.

----------


## G.Walker

I don't understand why people get so worked up about renderings. Out all people, OKCTALK people should know projects never turn out exactly like their renderings.

----------


## Spartan

Hmm. I'm not sure how this deal makes Hogan a scumbag, and while I still would never call him that, I can think of a few deals that are at least a little closer to that in reality. Not the KD restaurant.

This isn't bad. I am actually pleasantly surprised here. I still wish CenterPoint Market was being built with the KD restaurant on the canal level, but oh well. I would have thought KD would want a little more monumental design for his namesake, but if it were my namesake I guess this would be good enough...

----------


## Spartan

Ok, I take that back, one negative comment..




> Inspired by stone and brick architecture in Aspen, Colo., Rees Associates Inc. is designing the new restaurant development.


Huh? What about being inspired by, gee I don't know, the BRICK architecture of BRICKTOWN. Holy crap... Next they'll be justifying EIFS by claiming inspiration from the Moorish stucco dwellings of Sevilla. Bricktown is not supposed to have architecture inspired by Aspen or anywhere else no matter how cool. Bricktown is supposed to have a branded aesthetic, it's kinda important to the district's image.

Maybe Hogan is a scumbag...hmm I guess I rushed too soon to discount that theory. Scumbag is probably way too strong. I think we could safely say that Hogan is unphased by suggestions of building standards and has very low regard for anyone's hopes for what Bricktown could (or could have) become. Perhaps he has a moral objection to doing high-quality development.

It also sounded like the KD restaurant is going to be shacked up in a duplex with some other restaurant? Does KD realize what he has signed his name away for, and is there any way for him to save face or demand that they put his name on a little higher quality product? I am legitimately worried for the guy because he strikes me as one of the most genuinely nice guys in all of professional sports, and I would hate for him to have a bad experience in OKC because of Randy Hogan.

----------


## Just the facts

I think Durant is well aware that it won't be a flashy upscale restaurant.  That seems to be his style.  His basketball shoe was priced so the average family could afford them.

http://newsok.com/kevin-durant-keeps...rticle/3581780




> Durant's memory of not being able to have the shoes he wanted had a big impact when it came time to price his own line of shoes.
> 
> While NBA stars like Kobe Bryant and LeBron James have shoe lines that cost around $150, Durant offers his Nike KD line at $88. His shoe has become one of the most popular on the market.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/kevin-durant-keeps...#ixzz1sXTOSoaM

----------


## dankrutka

> Look closer.  The building does have a patio.
> 
> Attachment 1232


Nice catch. This "patio" just doesn't seem very integrated into the design though. I mean, there's tables there, but it doesn't look like there's any room for a decent patio. How many tables are in the design... still not very promising.

----------


## onthestrip

In the Journal Record it did state that one of the restaurants would have an enclosed patio. Not sure what that means exactly. Maybe big sliding glass doors, garage doors open...?

----------


## metro

What another underwhelming design in Lower Bricktown.

----------


## Larry OKC

> In the Journal Record it did state that one of the restaurants would have an enclosed patio. Not sure what that means exactly. Maybe big sliding glass doors, garage doors open...?


Am guessing but think it is probably along the lines of Toby Keith's patio, originally it was open air but someone said it is now enclosed???

----------


## Patrick

> Hogan may be a total scumbag, and his lower Bricktown development is total crap, but he's honestly the only person who has succeeded in selling downtown condos in OKC.


He's also one of the few who was given free land to build them on.

----------


## Patrick

> This isn't bad. I am actually pleasantly surprised here.


You're pleasantly surprised with a 1 level strip mall that could be found anywhere along May Ave? This really doesn't look much different from the strip building on the west side of the Belle Isle Station Shopping Center! LOL!

----------


## pickles

> This isn't bad. I am actually pleasantly surprised here.


I'd love to hear why you consider this a pleasant surprise, and why it may exceed whatever expectations you may have had.

----------


## kevinpate

> Am guessing but think it is probably along the lines of Toby Keith's patio, originally it was open air but someone said it is now enclosed???


The new KD's branded eatery and TK's eatery are to be operated by the same group.  TK's formerly open patio has been enclosed.  It's not real surprising the same operating group would begin with an enclosed patio at their place next door.  

The real surprise would be if, having gone to the trouble/expense to enclose the patio at TK, they would have decided an open patio next door made sense to them.

----------


## Spartan

> I'd love to hear why you consider this a pleasant surprise, and why it may exceed whatever expectations you may have had.


It has brick.

Now I have some concerns that they're talking about Aspen being their architectural inspiration (I didn't realize pad sites required distant architectural inspiration??) which is very concerning for BRICKTOWN.

But just as a heads up, I'm pretty much taking back my "not bad" earlier assessment. This is actually pretty bad, but again, what else do you expect for LB? The entire development, sans Sonic and Centennial, is a carbon copy of anything along Memorial.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Careful, OKC is in love with fake brick.  It might not actually be laid brick. =)


Can you point me to a "fake brick" project in the downtown area?

----------


## onthestrip

> Can you point me to a "fake brick" project in the downtown area?


I believe part of Harkins exterior concrete walls had a brick pattern stamped on it and is painted red. That is what I would assume he's talking about.

----------


## Spartan

Interestingly, this depiction here from AHMM has them depicting this as one of their 12 projects in OKC...

----------


## Bellaboo

> Can you point me to a "fake brick" project in the downtown area?


The Chesapeake Arena has 90 % fake brick doesn't it  ...?

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

To clarify:

The vast majority of the buildings and homes in our city are constructed with brick veneer.  Brick veneer is full-depth brick laid piece by piece and tied with masonry anchors to the building.  It is one of the most durable and long-lasting exterior finish material available.  Since it can also be relatively economical, it is a popular exterior material.  "Fake" brick is what would be called thin brick.  It is only 1/2" thick and is installed like tile on a mastic.  Many older buildings in Bricktown are actually constructed of structual brick masonry.  Structural brick masonry consists of 2 or more layers or "wythes" of brick.  For various reasons, structural brick masonry is rarely ever used.

----------


## BDP

> Can you point me to a "fake brick" project in the downtown area?


I think the first floor of the parking garage is fake brick as well.

----------


## JayhawkTransplant

> To clarify:
> Many older buildings in Bricktown are actually constructed of structual brick masonry.  Structural brick masonry consists of 2 or more layers or "wythes" of brick.  For various reasons, structural brick masonry is rarely ever used.


Is this why my 1920s brick house has a crazy high replacement cost estimate?

----------


## Urbanized

It's doubtful that your 1920s house was build using structural brick masonry. Brick veneer was the preferred choice even at that point. At one time I owned a 1927 G.A. Nichols home in Gatewood that used...brick veneer.

If the cost to replace brick on your home was exceptional, it was probably due to the type of brick and/or mortar used. The bricks and mortar we use today is considerably different in size, material and often color/texture, making it difficult (expensive) to match old brick.

----------


## Beastboii

Anybody see the cover of 2k13? *hint* *hint* *hintity* *hint* *hint*. Any news on te resturaunt

----------


## wschnitt

> Interestingly, this depiction here from AHMM has them depicting this as one of their 12 projects in OKC...


Will you give a link for this image? I want to look at it.

----------


## Larry OKC

According to our server at Toby Keiths, they were told that the servers will be working in all of the restaurants and not tied to a particular one.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> According to our server at Toby Keiths, they were told that the servers will be working in all of the restaurants and not tied to a particular one.


by "all" ... do you mean both?

----------


## oakhollow

Is everyone 100% sure that Kevin Durant's restaurant is still going as planned?  I have reason to believe this project might be put on hold.

----------


## Larry OKC

> by "all" ... do you mean both?


I don't know for sure, someone had posted (and confirmed by the server) that the building is going to house 2 restaurants, so the when he said "all" it meant the 3 of them.

----------


## Spartan

> Will you give a link for this image? I want to look at it.


http://archpaper.com/news/articles.asp?id=4978

----------


## skanaly

Do they even have permit yet?! This is taking a while

----------


## Teo9969

This isn't inside information, but I would imagine that this project is going to take longer due to Red Rock on the Lake burning down.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> This isn't inside information, but I would imagine that this project is going to take longer due to Red Rock on the Lake burning down.


doubt that has anything to do with it .. HSRG is building a bunch a places at once ..

----------


## catch22

Kevin Durant Restaurant Soon to Become a Reality | OKC Central

Although doesn't mention a start/open date, Steve does provide an update for this project.

----------


## Pete

> A lot of Kevin Durant fans were excited when I broke news earlier this year that the Thunder star was preparing to open a restaurant in Lower Bricktown.


With all due respect to Steve, he didn't "break" this story; we did here on OKCTalk.

Glad to see this project is still moving forward.

----------


## wschnitt

> With all due respect to Steve, he didn't "break" this story; we did here on OKCTalk.
> 
> Glad to see this project is still moving forward.


You don't think Steve can take credit for one story in exchange for his participation on the forums?

----------


## Pete

Just setting the record straight.

And this forum is a two-way street for Steve, the Journal Record, the Gazette, etc.  They get lots of information, story ideas and traffic from here, I can assure you.

----------


## Spartan

Steve had a huge break this week alone, and he has been the go-to guy for breaking news downtown for over a decade now. Nobody in their right mind would discredit the guy.

----------


## Steve

Sigh.
Language changed.
"A lot of Kevin Durant fans were excited when I was the first to get official confirmation  earlier this year that the Thunder star was preparing to open a restaurant in Lower Bricktown."
I will acknowledge, and do acknowledge, when stories are inspired by posts at OKC Talk. This story was not one of them. I was chasing the Kevin Durant restaurant story early on.... I'm not looking to get into a flame war or debate on this.

----------


## Pete

No reason to get testy over me simply stating something that is 100% true.

And I never said this story was inspired by OKCTalk, just that we were first to break the news.


We should be able to have these exchanges without using terms like "flame war".  I purposely only posted this here and not on OKCCentral, Twitter or FB.

----------


## Just the facts

Hopefully they spent the extra time coming up with a better design.  Otherwise it will just get added to the other junk that will need to bulldozed in the future.

----------


## Spartan

Steve actually genuinely enjoys crediting OKC Talk when he feels it appropriate from what I've seen. Everybody loves the credible engagement, few places have resources like OKC Talk or Steve.

----------


## metro

> No reason to get testy over me simply stating something that is 100% true.
> 
> And I never said this story was inspired by OKCTalk, just that we were first to break the news.
> 
> 
> We should be able to have these exchanges without using terms like "flame war".  I purposely only posted this here and not on OKCCentral, Twitter or FB.


What Pete said.

----------


## Steve

> No reason to get testy over me simply stating something that is 100% true.
> 
> And I never said this story was inspired by OKCTalk, just that we were first to break the news.
> 
> 
> We should be able to have these exchanges without using terms like "flame war".  I purposely only posted this here and not on OKCCentral, Twitter or FB.


Not testy. Just tired. This  is one of those days where tones and intent are lost on the keyboard. I never meant a slam on you or the site. But I worked very hard to get the story verified, and then I got ripped off repeatedly by tv news who did none of their own work on this. So then, well, hell ....  I'm not mad or upset with you. I hope you're not mad or upset with me.

----------


## Pete

Steve, you know no one respects you more than me.

I'm one of the few people that understands how hard you work and what goes into what you do.


I'm also proud of OKCTalk and want to make sure the site is given due credit, similar to how you fight for your own work and that of your colleagues.

----------


## Steve

I want to see OKC Talk thrive as well and you know I value it's role in our community. So why are we at odds here? Let's move on and talk about whether anyone thinks this building design would go through if it didn't have Durant's name attached....

----------


## HangryHippo

I sure as hell don't think it would cut the mustard.  However, I feel that way about every building in Lower Bricktown except for the Centennial, so...

----------


## Urbanized

The only thing I *REALLY* care about here is that James Harden is named honorary General Manager of the restaurant and paid around $5 million per year for his role.

----------


## HangryHippo

Perhaps so he can _"SETTLE"_ for $10 mil a year and keep us away from luxury tax territory??  ;  )

----------


## Urbanized

I would never admit to such chicanery.

----------


## onthestrip

> Perhaps so he can _"SETTLE"_ for $10 mil a year and keep us away from luxury tax territory??  ;  )


I dont think there is any way we can resign Harden without getting into the luxory tax territory. Lets hope our owners decide its worth it.

----------


## dankrutka

> I dont think there is any way we can resign Harden without getting into the luxory tax territory. Lets hope our owners decide its worth it.


This is true, but that is assuming we don't make other changes via amnesty or trades. I think that management is planning on paying some of the luxury tax, but they're trying to minimize it. I still think Harden gets signed, Perkins gets amnestied, Maynor gets let go, and the rest of the roster remains dirt cheap for the foreseeable future... Sorry. Way off topic.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I hope they don't just make it a wall on the south side of the building considering it will be ground level with the new boulevard.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I hope they don't just make it a wall on the south side of the building considering it will be ground level with the new boulevard.


the south side will NOT be ground level with the new BLVD    the BLVD will be above ground bridge getting ready to link up with I235  in this area ..

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> the south side will NOT be ground level with the new BLVD    the BLVD will be above ground bridge getting ready to link up with I235  in this area ..


It's not like it matters.  There is quite a buffer of parking separating the two.

I fully expect this building to follow the Toby Keith model and have the main entrance facing the parking lot and treat the canal frontage as an afterthought.

----------


## Snowman

> the south side will NOT be ground level with the new BLVD    the BLVD will be above ground bridge getting ready to link up with I235  in this area ..


According to some of the ODOT progress maps the boulevard is intended to be at ground level near Joe Carter Ave.

----------


## TechArch

I am excited to see a restaurant from Kevin Durant and something to fill this hole, but I am disappointed in the design.  However, it matches the rest of the area of Lower Bricktown - suburban in nature that happens to be along a canal.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> the south side will NOT be ground level with the new BLVD    the BLVD will be above ground bridge getting ready to link up with I235  in this area ..


The new boulevard is an above ground bridge over the canal and then will come down to ground level just to the west of the canal crossing.  It may be cutting it close and there may even be some kind of landscaping berm between the building and the road.  Who knows, just saying, it'd be worth it not to have to look at the back side of a building when you're looking over at the Brick from the Boulevard since we're looking at a different perspective in this new future.

----------


## Pete

Here are the final plans for the Kevin Durant restaurant plus one other restaurant space:

----------


## Dubya61

Thank goodness they finally steered that fictional elderly couple away from the canal!

----------


## BoulderSooner

have to wonder if the other spot will be an upper crust ..

----------


## onthestrip

A slender and small patio on half of the building....what a pathetic use of prime canal frontage. An absolute joke

----------


## dankrutka

Just terrible. How can people who do this for a living be so bad at it? Why would you not have your business interact with the canal more?!? A huge patio would likely be a hit!

----------


## HangryHippo

Hogan continues to disappoint.  I seriously don't understand his ineptitude here.

----------


## jn1780

The other tenent will have no patio at all.

----------


## catch22

Pathetic waste of land...

----------


## Just the facts

Keep this thread in mind when thinking about how you want the new boulevard developed.  Do you want a parkway or an urban street?

As for this abomination, there won't be many protest when they have to scrape this area clear in 20 years.

----------


## metro

> A slender and small patio on half of the building....what a pathetic use of prime canal frontage. An absolute joke


Randy Hogan has to be the most boring, unimaginative person in OKC. Your statement is an understatement. I guess it's infill though.

----------


## Just the facts

I agree Metro - as bad as it is, atleast it takes up some vacant space.

----------


## jn1780

> I agree Metro - as bad as it is, atleast it takes up some vacant space.


I guess at the end of the day its just an extension of what was built directly to the west of this property.

----------


## Pete

It will also be easy to replace down the road.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I guess at the end of the day its just an extension of what was built directly to the west of this property.


Would you guys rather have a dang grass lot....?

----------


## jn1780

> Would you guys rather have a dang grass lot....?


Nope, but that doesn't mean I can't dream of something better that could go there.

Edit: I would like to think are city has grown out of the "its better than a dang grass lot" phase of our development, I guess not. At least were not waving carrots for sporting good stores anymore. BP is about to have more competition from all four corners of the metro in a couple of months.

----------


## Richard at Remax

Id rather have the grass

----------


## Just the facts

> Would you guys rather have a dang grass lot....?


If the choice is between grass lots and this, then what does that say about this development?  If I was a developer and someone even entertained the thought that my development was even comparable to a grass lot, I would be ashamed.

----------


## Bellaboo

If it's a Hal Smith Group chain, it'll last. The building may not be so cool, but it'll have more people traffic than the empty grass lot. Several years ago, we went to San Antonio twice in about 15 months. What we were amazed by was the 'turnover' in resturants, what we had enjoyed were either something else or completely vacant, and it was in the urban canal wall of buildings.

----------


## Rover

I love San Antonio Riverwalk, however, past two times I have been there I have been practically alone on the river at 9 pm.  It was mid week, but I would have expected more life and traffic.   As for historic, the river was a sewer..that's the history.  

We should hope this restaurant is good and draws people.  Whether there is a lively patio or not, the restaurant will bring people IN to the city and they will spend time before, after, or both.  It will give people one more reason to go downtown and/or to stay, and that is good.  

As for it being scraped later...maybe after years and years.  But, there is so much undeveloped and under-developed land downtown there will be lots of other places to scrape before businesses with cash flow and profit will be replaced.

----------


## catch22

> Very true.  Sad to hear that about SARW. Haven't been in over 10 years.
> 
> In general, I am for just about any kind of development in OKC for the reason you stated.  But then why have the design committee?  That is where my beef is.  I fail to grasp their vision for BT.  Is it simply an ED one?  Perhaps they are just miss-labeled.


I believe the Bricktown Design Committee does not have jurisidction south of Reno Ave.... Maybe I was dreaming that up.

----------


## catch22

> I'd that is true, I apologize.  I have misplaced 'blame' then.


Wasn't dreaming, according to this map. Hardly any of Lower bricktown is subject to any special review commitee. Just the planning department for building permits.
http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-d...districts.html

----------


## Steve

Lower Bricktown is under design control - but it's overseen by the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority, which has historically been more flexible than the design review committees.

----------


## soonerguru

> I believe the Bricktown Design Committee does not have jurisidction south of Reno Ave.... Maybe I was dreaming that up.


Correct. Which is why there was nothing stopping Randy Hogan from recreating Memorial Blvd. on the Canal. 

And with a couple of exceptions, Hal Smith Restaurants pretty much blow.

----------


## Spartan

> Hogan continues to disappoint.  I seriously don't understand his ineptitude here.


It's extremely easy to understand...he can build cheap **** and rake in the cash doing it because people will still go.

----------


## Rover

> It's extremely easy to understand...he can build cheap **** and rake in the cash doing it because people will still go.


Perhaps rather than vilifying capitalists, maybe the people who set the standards should really be the ones held accountable.  This is a commercial venture with intention to make money.  The building it goes in is controlled by other entities.  Don't blame those merely playing the game fairly.  Change the restrictions and make the investor decide what is worth the investment considering the risk.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Correct. Which is why there was nothing stopping Randy Hogan from recreating Memorial Blvd. on the Canal. 
> 
> And with a couple of exceptions, *Hal Smith Restaurants pretty much blow*.


Not...... I've been to resturants in 24 countries, and I've eaten at much worse than Charlestons and Red Rock.......and for a lot heftier price.

I just spent the last 4 days in Niagara Falls Canada, and wow was that expensive for what you get......

----------


## Spartan

> Perhaps rather than vilifying capitalists, maybe the people who set the standards should really be the ones held accountable.  This is a commercial venture with intention to make money.  The building it goes in is controlled by other entities.  Don't blame those merely playing the game fairly.  Change the restrictions and make the investor decide what is worth the investment considering the risk.


Do you think I would object to heightened design requirements downtown? Or OCURA/Alliance holding them to a higher standard on land relinquished to them by the public, along a canal that the public built for Hogan...etc.

----------


## Just the facts

> I agree with everything you said.  But it is sad that the era of capitalists building things of value beyond the bottom line.  Seeing buildings that don the names of their builders -- the merchants that built this country, brings me great joy. 
> 
> Something fundamental has changed over the years.  I don't fault people for looking at cheap development and having an emotional prick when they see it.  I do too.


This is exactly right Sid and the problem is Wall Street.  Just look at Chesapeake here in OKC.  Clearly AM did not operate the company at peak profitability, but he created a great place to work, was a great corporate citizen, and shared his wealth with everyone in the state.  Thanks to shareholders (and their greed for maximum short-term profitablity) people are already losing their jobs and who know what the future holds.  When is the last time you saw a new building constructed that had the owners name cast in stone?  Now days we are lucky if they put their name on the building at all.

Somehow profit at all cost got confused as capitalism.  Freaking left and right wing statist always looking to government to set the minimum standards.  Randy Hogan should hold himself to a higher standard.

----------


## Rover

> This is exactly right Sid and the problem is Wall Street.  Just look at Chesapeake here in OKC.  Clearly AM did not operate the company at peak profitability, but he created a great place to work, was a great corporate citizen, and shared his wealth with everyone in the state.  Thanks to shareholders (and their greed for maximum short-term profitablity) people are already losing their jobs and who know what the future holds.  When is the last time you saw a new building constructed that had the owners name cast in stone?  Now days we are lucky if they put their name on the building at all.
> 
> Somehow profit at all cost got confused as capitalism.  Freaking left and right wing statist always looking to government to set the minimum standards.  Randy Hogan should hold himself to a higher standard.


There is an easy solution. Don't start public companies and invest people's money when they expect security and profit.  Btw, profit drives capitalism.  And by "at all costs" I assume that means as long as companies do what YOU think is best then it is okay, but maximizing profit is not.  Communists tried it and it failed.

----------


## Steve

I'm greatly amused by this discussion of capitalism. This was land acquired by the city through eminent domain to take an area that was considered blighted and turn it into a vibrant commercial extension of Bricktown. Randy Hogan was sold the land at a very uncapitalistic price of $2.50 per square foot with the understanding he was to develop the area into a mix of entertainment and shops, and not just restaurants. His renderings showed a development that primarily had two- and three-story buildings. Hogan bid for this urban renewal land with the understanding they expected a higher standard than pad development. But.....

----------


## Just the facts

I try not to think about it Steve - it just pisses me off.

This is what Randy Hogan told the City we would get.

----------


## okcboy

The $2.50/ft. was then spent back on infrastuctre if I recall.  All while dirt north of reno was going for $35+/ft.

----------


## Rover

Then all they have to do is deny the plans.  Or if we are so outraged, sue for not getting what was promised.  If there are solid guidelines that are legally derived at, then enforce it.  Otherwise, don't be surprised when the most advantageous commercial plan is executed.  I know of no reputable private company that would grant rights at a discount without an enforceable contract.

----------


## Rover

> I'm greatly amused by this discussion of capitalism. This was land acquired by the city through eminent domain to take an area that was considered blighted and turn it into a vibrant commercial extension of Bricktown. Randy Hogan was sold the land at a very uncapitalistic price of $2.50 per square foot with the understanding he was to develop the area into a mix of entertainment and shops, and not just restaurants. His renderings showed a development that primarily had two- and three-story buildings. Hogan bid for this urban renewal land with the understanding they expected a higher standard than pad development. But.....


It takes more than "understandings".  It takes enforceable contracts. Otherwise, no one should be surprised when the profit incentives drive the project and not a sense of public duty.

----------


## Just the facts

The problem is that what Hogan has built ISN'T the most profitable style of development in the long run.  If he would go with the most profitable method of development we wouldn't have a problem.  What Hogan has done is gone with the cheapest to build.

----------


## Steve

"You could say they got free land," - Garner Stoll (planning director at the time this project was put out for RFP).
And this, friends, is why I was amused that the word "capitalism" was being mentioned in this discussion....

----------


## BoulderSooner

> The problem is that what Hogan has built ISN'T the most profitable style of development in the long run.  If he would go with the most profitable method of development we wouldn't have a problem.  What Hogan has done is gone with the cheapest to build.


you wrong .. but whatever ..

----------


## Pete

While none of Lower Bricktown is to write home about, this newest development really crosses the line into the absurd.

1 story plan box without any real patio right on the canal??


This area is outside the purview of any of the design review committees (which is a problem in itself) but OCURA needs to draw the line and demand better.

Someone needs to go to this meeting next week and raise an objection:

105 N. Hudson Avenue, Suite 101
Wednesday September 19, 2012
10:30 a.m.

----------


## metro

> If the choice is between grass lots and this, then what does that say about this development?  If I was a developer and someone even entertained the thought that my development was even comparable to a grass lot, I would be ashamed.


Even moreso, if I was KD and putting my name on this dump of a building, I'd be ashamed to be associated with it.

----------


## metro

> I'm going to try to go.


If I can I'll try and join you.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> While none of Lower Bricktown is to write home about, this newest development really crosses the line into the absurd.
> 
> 1 story plan box without any real patio right on the canal??
> 
> 
> This area is outside the purview of any of the design review committees (which is a problem in itself) but OCURA needs to draw the line and demand better.
> 
> Someone needs to go to this meeting next week and raise an objection:
> 
> ...



how is this builidng any different than the earls/marble slab building

----------


## Skyline

> how is this builidng any different than the earls/marble slab building


It's not and I think that is the point.

----------


## Pete

The Earl's / Marble Slab building is certainly not very good, but it actually has 20 outdoor tables up on a terrace.  It was also wedged in to fit between the theater and the canal.

Even the Sonic Building has a nice terrace and plaza facing the canal.

This building looks worse than most the generic tilt-up crap you see on NW Expressway and Memorial road with virtually no patio or any type of interaction with the canal.  And it's in  a prime spot that is more or less at canal level with plenty of room to building something decent.


AND it happens not yet to be built.  So, it's a bigger issue because there is time to do something about it.

----------


## jn1780

> Even moreso, if I was KD and putting my name on this dump of a building, I'd be ashamed to be associated with it.


Good point. I doubt he really thinks about it, though.

Maybe if people write KD about their thoughts and feelings they can get him on their side.

----------


## JayhawkTransplant

> This building looks worse than most the generic tilt-up crap you see on NW Expressway and Memorial road with virtually no patio or any type of interaction with the canal.  And it's in  a prime spot that is more or less at canal level with plenty of room to building something decent.


This.  When I saw the rendering, I was immediately reminded of the 'Marketplace' building on the SW corner of 33rd and Broadway in Edmond.

----------


## BDP

Can someone point out the canal to Mr. Hogan? I am pretty sure he is unaware it's there.

----------


## metro

> Good point. I doubt he really thinks about it, though.
> 
> Maybe if people write KD about their thoughts and feelings they can get him on their side.





> Anyone have an email address that we could use to reach KD's people?


Best way to reach important people these days is Twitter, it's a guaranteed direct conduit to them.

@KDTrey5

I already got the ball rolling with 2 tweets!

----------


## Fantastic

> Can someone point out the canal to Mr. Hogan? I am pretty sure he is unaware it's there.


 :Lol2:

----------


## Just the facts

I love the idea of going right at the person with the name on the door.  If you put your name on a pile of crap don't be surprised if someone tries to flush it.  I'll laugh if this make ESPNews as one of those quirky side stories.

----------


## Pete

What's particularly appalling about this project is there is now a decent critical mass in Bricktown and even Lower BT, that should make it easier to build and lease BETTER buildings and get more rent for them.

So why is Hogan going backwards here?  You know he's made tons of money off the existing buildings because the condos all sold in record time and everything else seems to be completely leased.

Why is he choosing to build something cheaper with less features than what is already there and thriving??

The obvious answer:  Because the area has enough demand that tenants will pay decent rent for crappy buildings; Hogan is just trying to maximize profit without any concern about how his heavily subsidized properties impact the broader community.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Best way to reach important people these days is Twitter, it's a guaranteed direct conduit to them.
> 
> @KDTrey5
> 
> I already got the ball rolling with 2 tweets!


KD doesn't have a dime invested in this......................he's just selling his name. Go after HSG.

----------


## Just the facts

> KD doesn't have a dime invested in this......................he's just selling his name. Go after HSG.


Are you saying the name "Kevin Durant" doesn't have any value?  Why would HSG put a worthless name on their restaurant?

----------


## OKCTalker

You're invested when your name is on a business, or when the business pays to use your name. KD is in this big time. 

Why do athletes follow such bad advice?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Are you saying the name "Kevin Durant" doesn't have any value?  Why would HSG put a worthless name on their restaurant?


I will quote him - 'Ive been wanting something like this for awhile, I didn't have to pay anything and I'll have my name on a restraunt'. KD has nothing other than his name vested, he's out zero dollars.

How this goes will not effect his marketability on a national scale whatsoever......

----------


## Just the facts

> I will quote him 'Ive been wanting something like this for awhile, I didn't have to pay anything and I'll have my name on a restraunt'. KD has nothing other than his name vested, he's out zero dollars.
> 
> How this goes will not effect his marketability on a national scale whatsoever......


Maybe KD should care what his name is on.

----------


## sooner88

He has been directly involved though, just not financially. He has had input on many things including the menu. While this doesn't have anything to do with the physical design of the building, it's cool to know that he is actually involved with the process and excited to have it open.

----------


## jn1780

> I will quote him - 'Ive been wanting something like this for awhile, I didn't have to pay anything and I'll have my name on a restraunt'. KD has nothing other than his name vested, he's out zero dollars.
> 
> How this goes will not effect his marketability on a national scale whatsoever......


One word: Ego. If he cares enough about having his name on a restaurant than he will care enough when people start bad mouthing the design of the building his name is on. He can have his name put on any building or restaurant in the city.

Its kind of hard for HSG to ignore the guy whose name is on the building. He won't be as enthusiastic about marketing the restaurant.

----------


## Stew

I think the restraunt design looks pretty good. I'd bet a majority of Oklahomans would agree. This is only controversial to a very small segment of the population. I'd also bet dollars to donuts Kevin Durant fans don't  give a fiddlers fart about the design of the building sporting his name.

I'm looking forward to the restaurant's opening.

----------


## Mr. Cotter

Yeah, while I don't like the design (for where it is, not necessarily what it is), the average Oklahoman will be very excited to see this.  I don't think this will, nor do I think it should, deminish Durant's immage.

----------


## Popsy

> One word: Ego. If he cares enough about having his name on a restaurant than he will care enough when people start bad mouthing the design of the building his name is on. He can have his name put on any building or restaurant in the city.
> 
> Its kind of hard for HSG to ignore the guy whose name is on the building. He won't be as enthusiastic about marketing the restaurant.


I had hoped that KD would not be exposed to the somewhat rare form of mental illness experienced by some of our resident urbanists, but it looks like he will be exposed.  I hope he just says WTF to the wind and goes on about his business.

----------


## jn1780

> I had hoped that KD would not be exposed to the somewhat rare form of mental illness experienced by some of our resident urbanists, but it looks like he will be exposed.  I hope he just says WTF to the wind and goes on about his business.


This is our urban area were talking about. I am not about to give up on it. You can keep your surburbia out of the heart of OKC.

At least people living in the city will be able to afford the medication to treat their "mental illness" since their not using all their money toward gas. Lol

----------


## Bellaboo

> One word: Ego. If he cares enough about having his name on a restaurant than he will care enough when people start bad mouthing the design of the building his name is on. He can have his name put on any building or restaurant in the city.
> 
> Its kind of hard for HSG to ignore the guy whose name is on the building. He won't be as enthusiastic about marketing the restaurant.


They will talk about two things, and the building is not one of them. 1). The memorabilia inside and 2) the food.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I had hoped that KD would not be exposed to the somewhat rare form of mental illness experienced by some of our resident urbanists, but it looks like he will be exposed.  I hope he just says WTF to the wind and goes on about his business.


I don't think KD reads or even knows that OKCTALK even exists or about any urbanistic opinions......I also heard him say in an interview one time that he grew up around lots of buildings and liked the wide open spaces and low key atmosphere of OKC. It's a great place to play basketball, he said.

----------


## TechArch

Developer will seek OK of plan for site in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown: early promises compared to actual development | NewsOK.com

Another good article by Steve on this topic.

----------


## Pete

> When asked Monday why he abandoned previous plans for the Kevin Durant restaurant site that called for a two-story building, Hogan responded that parking in the area already is tight, and a larger building would require structured parking. He said the construction of a new boulevard in the old Interstate 40 alignment south of Lower Bricktown will provide space for some additional spaces  but not enough to allow for denser development.
> 
> Read more: Developer will seek OK of plan for site in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown: early promises compared to actual development | NewsOK.com


Oh brother, there is tons of directly adjacent parking with more to come.

----------


## Urbanized

The important thing to note is that he says more density would be possible with structured parking, though he doesn't indicate much interest in going there. I've thought for years that structured parking would fix most of the perceived inadequacies of LB. I don't even think Randy would have to come as much out-of-pocket as you might think, as I'm certain TIF would assist in funding . We've seen examples of this with Legacy and Level.

He is correct in saying that the current surface parking is routinely maxed. It happens several times a week, but in part because regular Bricktown visitors (and even, unfortunately, employees) utilize LB's free parking while visiting the rest of Bricktown. It's also always maxed on game and large event (concert, etc.) nights.

Personally I think it's fine and appropriate for OCURA and others to look closely at the design of this restaurant - and I have a personal interest in hoping it eventually relates more to the canal - but I think the more important issue is encouraging him to explore structured parking to allow for increased density and even more development.

----------


## Pete

I think there is only one more pad site left for Hogan to develop, so I think Lower BT is pretty much finished now.

----------


## BDP

> The important thing to note is that he says more density would be possible with structured parking, though he doesn't indicate much interest in going there. I've thought for years that structured parking would fix most of the perceived inadequacies of LB. I don't even think Randy would have to come as much out-of-pocket as you might think, as I'm certain TIF would assist in funding . We've seen examples of this with Legacy and Level.


I agree. He seems to be blowing smoke and maybe setting up for another hand out. As in, "well, this is the best I can do, unless you want to put millions more into my property for structured parking". Problem is, why put more money into his property if he is just going to squander the gift?

I also think he should make the parking in lower bricktown paid with validation from any Bricktown establishment or at least any lower bricktown establishment. This could mitigate the fact that the parking lot itself has become a hang out for many people who are not even patronizing any of the area businesses. It would create more parking for the actual businesses without adding spaces and make the district as a whole a more enjoyable area to visit.

----------


## Just the facts

> He is correct in saying that the current surface parking is routinely maxed. It happens several times a week, but in part because regular Bricktown visitors (and even, unfortunately, employees) utilize LB's free parking while visiting the rest of Bricktown. It's also always maxed on game and large event (concert, etc.) nights.


If only there was a way to generate a customer base who doesn't have to bring a car with them.

On a side note, I was in Wendy's yesterday and I watched a person park their car and go into the bank next door.  They came out, got in their car, backed out, drove to the connecting Wendy's lot, parked, and came into Wendy's.  They moved their car a grand total of 9 parking spaces just so they could go from parking at the front door of the bank to the front door of Wendy's.

----------


## Richard at Remax

People who use Edmond as a source for all their problems sound like insecure little babies. Get over yourselves.

----------


## Mr. Cotter

I don't think anyone has said Edmond was the source of their problems.  But there is a clear mentality from the suburbs that development needs close parking; Edmond just makes a nice shorthand (I currently live there).  

Anecdotally, I know the owner of one Bricktown business who can identify if a customer is from Edmond based on whether or not they complain about having to pay for parking.  He is also from Edmond.

The perceived needs of commuters should not dictate development in the urban core.  I don't think that makes me sound line an insecure little baby.

----------


## Richard at Remax

No it doesn't. Because you bring logic and thought into your arguement. I grew up in Edmond, live in Edgemere Park now, and I and the people I know from Edmond could give two craps about how close parking is. 

And you are right and the point I wanted to make, WHO CARES what the suburbs think of an urban parking situation. Adapt or don't come. I just think it was a weak excuse on Hogans part to scale back the size of his building due to the size of the parking lot.

----------


## Just the facts

Anyone who says he can't build high density because of the size of the parking lot was lost before he even got started.

----------


## BDP

> Anyone who says he can't build high density because of the size of the parking lot was lost before he even got started.


Ha! Good point!

----------


## CaptDave

> Anyone who says he can't build high density because of the size of the parking lot was lost before he even got started.


Indeed.....I have an extremely difficult time taking seriously anyone who complains about a lack of parking in Bricktown. Just look at an aerial photograph for crying out loud. Urbanized nailed it when he stated we need more parking structures to open up land for development. Just take the horizontal parking vertical, add some capacity to account for more businesses, then get the earthmovers moving on those huge surface lots ASAP.

----------


## catch22

Unfortunately, it will be a long time before Lower Bricktown gets fixed the right way. The only way for that to happen will be organically, and the current design will make that a slow and complicated process. A big part of the problem, IMO is the fact that south of Reno, the canal turns into a winding and wandering moat. When it is straight on the north side, it defines the pedestrian environment. And makes walking distances shorter (a perception issue). For all intents and purposes for design around the canal, the canal must be considered a street. Wandering streets  (without a purpose such as terrain, etc.) don't make good pedestrian environments or set off an urban vibe. And the buildings that build along it, will follow the lead of suburban architecture created by the wandering 'street'.

----------


## onthestrip

The idea that he has to have structure parking to build 2 story is bogus. If he were to build 2 story it would be 90% likely that the top floor would be office. A) office space would require much parking and B) parking demand is obviously low during the day and thats when any office would need parking.

----------


## Bellaboo

He's lying. He would have the same footprint no matter how tall, 1, 2 or 3 floors. He's just being cheap. The email campaign needs to go to whatever group approves or nixes the current plan.

----------


## Just the facts

> The idea that he has to have structure parking to build 2 story is bogus. If he were to build 2 story it would be 90% likely that the top floor would be office. A) office space would require much parking and B) parking demand is obviously low during the day and thats when any office would need parking.


This is called 'time deiversity' and should be one of the goals of any urban development.  If you are going to spend money building a parking space ideally you want it used as many hours during the 24 cycle as possible.  As one group of users move out of an area a second group of users should move in (and preferabbly of the same numerical size).  This allows businesses to have more customers spread across a longer time period which make for sustainable retail.

----------


## Richard at Remax

No apologies necessary, I overreacted myself, but it just can be frustrating from someone from edmond to to be on a pro-urban forum to always hear about lets not be like edmond. I mean its a suburb, like any other one. And there are some entitled bad apples that live there too, also like any other ones. 

But back to the main problem, until we have a transportation system that encourages us to not use our cars in the urban center then there will always be parking issues down there. But until then tastefully designed parking structures should be encouraged. LIke the Sonic parking lot between the sonic building and the Rensaissance Hotel, there could be a parking garage there on the north side and on the south side could be a multilevel hotel/apartments with retail on the bottom.

----------


## jn1780

I always see that parking lot south of Bass Pro half empty. Even on a Friday night. People going to the baseball game were paying for parking even though this lot was practically empty. Only on Thunder game nights does it fill up.

The parking problem is cultural.

----------


## Pete

Look at the acres of surface parking surrounding this site:

----------


## Just the facts

...and you didn't even capture the north Bricktown lots.

----------


## Rover

We can gripe all we want, but it is simple economics.  There is too much supply of cheap surface sites.    The higher the demand/cost of the land, the higher the density of the development and better roi.  No one will voluntarily build structured parking if low cost land or cheap existing parking is close.  We are simultaneously expecting to grow high density in multiple areas of downtown and it will take time.  You don't see 2,000 ft one story homes built in Nichols Hills...not on lots costing $200-500,000.  You see structures that are in balance with the lot costs, and almost all are at least 2 story.  But, it is a catch 22 for downtown.  We have made Film Row, Midtown, SOSA, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, Deep Deuce, core to shore, Medical District, the cotton gin site and the river, ALL development areas.  That is a lot of area and it will take time to develop density. If we had tighter focus and built demand one area at a time then I believe high density would happen quicker, but in smaller neighborhoods.  Just look at what is happening in DD now. Lots are disappearing, rates are increasing, and higher density development isn't as much a risk so money is really starting to pour in.

----------


## Just the facts

> You don't see 2,000 ft one story homes built in Nichols Hills...not on lots costing $200-500,000.  You see structures that are in balance with the lot costs, and almost all are at least 2 story.


Good point, but that is the arguement the urbanist have been making.  Hogan got free land, so what does he care if 80% of it is parking - it isn't like he had to buy it.  He got it for free so any crap development will do - for him.  I'll bet my a$$ if he had to shell out true market value there wouldn't be acres of surface parking.

----------


## catch22

Red: Current buildings
Blue: Future buildings

1. 4 story mixed use. First floor retail/restaurant. Floors 2-4 office.
2. 8 story hotel
3. 2 story mixed use. Ground floor retail, top floor office. (see Auto Alley)
4. 5 story mixed use. Ground floor retail/restaurant/office. Floors 2-5 Residential or office. Approx 25,000 sq. feet ground floor.
5. 5 story mixed use. Large ground floor restaurant space. Floors 2-5 Residental.
6. 4 story mixed use. Large ground floor restaurant or retail space. Office above.
7. 5 story mixed use. Restaurant/retail ground floor. Residential above.
8. Parking garage with ground floor retail and restaurant.
9. 4 story mixed use. Ground floor restaurant/retail. Top floors office.
10. 10 story residential tower. Ground floor grocery space/retail.

That was just about a 30 minute sketch. I'm sure the creative minds at okctalk could improve that drastically. Obviously, probably would not happen anytime soon. But even with the planning failures, it can still be corrected without demolition (would be easier to just demo everything and start over though, not cost efficient though).

----------


## Just the facts

I would prefer to start over and put in a proper street grid.

----------


## catch22

> I would prefer to start over and put in a proper street grid.


I would too. But I doubt we can expect that anytime in the future with the way our planning works. See the boulevard debacle.

----------


## Rover

> Good point, but that is the arguement the urbanist have been making.  Hogan got free land, so what does he care if 80% of it is parking - it isn't like he had to buy it.  He got it for free so any crap development will do - for him.  I'll bet my a$$ if he had to shell out true market value there wouldn't be acres of surface parking.


At the time that deal was done there was very little value to the land.  The incentives are ways to try to create value.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Good point, but that is the arguement the urbanist have been making.  Hogan got free land, so what does he care if 80% of it is parking - it isn't like he had to buy it.  He got it for free so any crap development will do - for him.  I'll bet my a$$ if he had to shell out true market value there wouldn't be acres of surface parking.


if you wanted tenets .. he would have lots of parking

----------


## Just the facts

> At the time that deal was done there was very little value to the land.  The incentives are ways to try to create value.


I understand that. which is why the City was promised a development that didn't reflect the value of the land.

----------


## Just the facts

> if you wanted tenets .. he would have lots of parking


In a parking garge yes, but even at the lower end of urban population densities there could be housing for 2000 to 3000 people on this property, in addition to everything that is there now.  This is where Bricktown missed the boat and will be problematic when other urban districts around downtown take off.

----------


## Rover

Maybe as a part of the incentives packages, the subsidized business could be made to disclose the financials on the project to see if there is inordinate profit taking on the transactions.  If the financial reality is that even with $0 cost of land that the rest of the cost has to be returned at a fair rate.  If the subsidized party is making an exceptional profit either through operations or appreciation due to the city's investment, then that is a different story.  To require developments that will be doomed to financial failure isn't smart either.  Unless we know the particulars then we don't really know whether what is proposed is fair or not.

----------


## Spartan

> We can gripe all we want, but it is simple economics.  There is too much supply of cheap surface sites.    The higher the demand/cost of the land, the higher the density of the development and better roi.  No one will voluntarily build structured parking if low cost land or cheap existing parking is close.  We are simultaneously expecting to grow high density in multiple areas of downtown and it will take time.  You don't see 2,000 ft one story homes built in Nichols Hills...not on lots costing $200-500,000.  You see structures that are in balance with the lot costs, and almost all are at least 2 story.  But, it is a catch 22 for downtown.  We have made Film Row, Midtown, SOSA, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, Deep Deuce, core to shore, Medical District, the cotton gin site and the river, ALL development areas.  That is a lot of area and it will take time to develop density. If we had tighter focus and built demand one area at a time then I believe high density would happen quicker, but in smaller neighborhoods.  Just look at what is happening in DD now. Lots are disappearing, rates are increasing, and higher density development isn't as much a risk so money is really starting to pour in.


The free market created all of those areas. How do you suppose were we to prevent cool urban development in areas like SoSA or far Midtown because it's too far from the core?

----------


## Rover

> The free market created all of those areas. How do you suppose were we to prevent cool urban development in areas like SoSA or far Midtown because it's too far from the core?


First, Urban Renewal/Government and the then "correct" view of urban planning created many of the huge gaps.  And yes, free enterprise contributed.  And if you believe JTF then GM and the government colluded to do the damage along with Satan. Second, no one is saying that SOSA, Midtown, etc. shouldn't develop and I agree they are cool and fresh.  But that doesn't change the economic catch 22 that exists - way more supply than demand.  It is why this is a long term development project to urbanize OKC.  It is changing and in some areas it is happening quickly as demand increases and supply decreases.

----------


## Spartan

Rover... Your posts are seeping with venom more than usual these days. Kerry is a little crazy but there is a lot of truth to what killed downtowns everywhere. 

But did you just say way more supply than demand? What universe are you on? Also I'm not sure what this has to do with LB...

----------


## betts

At the time lower Bricktown was started, clearly the city was happy to have anything there. Times have changed, and city planning needs to change with it. We are seeing a resurgence in activity in downtown and surrounds, and it is now becoming a seller's market. The city needs to value its property more and be more discriminating about what is built where. I think lower Bricktown could use a parking garage, and perhaps better use can be made of some of that surface parking. 

And while I agree that there is a dilutional effect due to simultaneous development of other areas near downtown, that sort of thing is not surprising and not easily subject to control, given the fact that most of it is private development and acceptable urban architecture or renewal.

----------


## Spartan

How have we diluted downtown development?

I can't believe this thing about too much supply is gaining traction.

----------


## Rover

The fact is that there are LOTS of development opportunities and LOTS of vacant spaces.  That is the excess supply.  What we are trying to do is drive up demand which will eventually meet or exceed supply.  Then we will see more valuable and taller structures, less wasted space, and higher priced buildings....more density that we all want.

I also think lower BT will be marginally valuable until the future of the cotton mill is known.  That too is a game changer property because of its size and location.

----------


## Rover

> Rover... Your posts are seeping with venom more than usual these days. Kerry is a little crazy but there is a lot of truth to what killed downtowns everywhere. 
> 
> But did you just say way more supply than demand? What universe are you on? Also I'm not sure what this has to do with LB...


Btw, sorry for unintended venom....not intended.  I agree with a lot of what he says.  I'm just less rigid and, IMHO, more pragmatic.

----------


## Spartan

> The fact is that there are LOTS of development opportunities and LOTS of vacant spaces.  That is the excess supply.  What we are trying to do is drive up demand which will eventually meet or exceed supply.  Then we will see more valuable and taller structures, less wasted space, and higher priced buildings....more density that we all want.
> 
> I also think lower BT will be marginally valuable until the future of the cotton mill is known.  That too is a game changer property because of its size and location.


Can't disagree here. I think some of you would be surprised at how land speculation costs have driven up in the last 5 years though... Of course land spec really sucks.

----------


## Urbanized

> Red: Current buildings
> Blue: Future buildings
> 
> 1. 4 story mixed use. First floor retail/restaurant. Floors 2-4 office.
> 2. 8 story hotel
> 3. 2 story mixed use. Ground floor retail, top floor office. (see Auto Alley)
> 4. 5 story mixed use. Ground floor retail/restaurant/office. Floors 2-5 Residential or office. Approx 25,000 sq. feet ground floor.
> 5. 5 story mixed use. Large ground floor restaurant space. Floors 2-5 Residental.
> 6. 4 story mixed use. Large ground floor restaurant or retail space. Office above.
> ...


Very similar to what I have suggested for years, with a few interesting wrinkles I had not considered. To respond to Pete's earlier post that said only one pad site left, LB is done, I say that is only if you accept that the original use plan is the right plan. I think with the benefit of hindsight most would agree that more density in LB would be desirable. If you introduce structured parking you open up broad swaths of land currently used as parking (some canal-front!!) as NEW pads. The limits on development are only imposed by a 15-year-old plan that many now feel (and some felt all along) is too suburban in nature from a land use standpoint.

I think that the pressure on OCURA/Hogan to build the best possible structure for the KD restaurant is fine, and even appropriate, but I think a much more important effort would be for OCURA and others to work with Randy to amend the original development plan and make better use of the REST of that property.

----------


## catch22

> I'd also like to see a pedestrian mall from Reno south through where you have the building labeled "1".  Transecting pedestrian access along the canal is key.


Yes pedestrian egress was a challenge in this due to the location of existing buildings (Sonic, etc.). Do you mean leave that space empty but turned into a public pedestrian space or leave the building but create a pedestrian corridor through the bottom floor?

----------


## shawnw

> My friend and I just about LOL'ed...which would have been a mistake because we quickly realized, she was serious.  The irony is, neither of us arrived in AA by car.  Both of us walked and met at the Slingers.


I was wondering if this story would make "the talk".  :-)

I like your version of it better than mine. Maybe we just need to have some "re-education" sessions with her, bring her around to the better way of thinking with regard to parking...

----------


## shawnw

So, is the official southern boundary of lower bricktown? Where is the dividing line with the boathouse district? Will it be the boulevard? I ask because I interpreted Steve's article as referring to Hogan building south of the boulevard eventually...

----------


## Pete

Can we get OCURA to cede Lower BT to either catch22 or Sid???

Both plans are excellent and represent how the area can grow in the future and do it right.


Unfortunately, Randy Hogan will merely slap up one last single-story, plain-Jane restaurant pad and call it good, with tons of money in his pocket and leaving OKC a massive missed opportunity.

----------


## Spartan

> Not sure if that image works, if not, here is the link:
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...72911130443330
> 
> 
> Bascially, blue is new retail.  Notice next to Harkins we need to fill that void on the west side of that new pedestrian walkway headed south.  Ramp stays.  Everything else is just ideas for new retail.  The green is a new plaza space that will compliment Toby Keith's place and Kevin Durant's.  If I was king, I'd theme the plaza after the "stars" of Oklahoma.  Even try to see if we could get more retail in that space branded the same way.  So it would be a major tourist destination. 
> 
> The large red square is a new, major parking structure.  The route south from there could be easily redone as the that intersection is essentially a 3-way.  Right now it just feeds into the hotel but there already is an entrance for it.  So I'd redo that intersection to make the pedestrian plaza start just to the north of it so that people feel like parking in the structure is an easy walk.  No light jumping or anything like that.  Signals prioritized for pedestrians with significant crossing times.  I'd even prefer to see it as an "all-way" crossing for pedestrians, just like Mickey Mantle and Reno needs to be.
> 
> So the brown color is basically pedestrian space. 
> ...


I don't see why the Alliance couldn't just do another big garage deal in conjunction to finding a redeveloped for the garbage heap that is LB.

----------


## LandRunOkie

> The fact is that there are LOTS of development opportunities and LOTS of vacant spaces.  That is the excess supply.  What we are trying to do is drive up demand which will eventually meet or exceed supply.  Then we will see more valuable and taller structures, less wasted space, and higher priced buildings....more density that we all want.


Bricktown was created  to be an "entertainment district" and it will probably always be that.  I would like to see the new building be two stories just so the profit-taking by Hogan isn't so one-sided.  But I would never live in a tourist trap district and have to believe few reasonable people would.

----------


## Just the facts

> Bricktown was created  to be an "entertainment district" and it will probably always be that.


The problem is that 'entertainment districts' aren't sustainable.  Bricktown either needs to evolve or die.

----------


## mgsports

National Retail would be good like maybe a NBA Store next to his Restaurant.

----------


## Steve

> The problem is that 'entertainment districts' aren't sustainable.  Bricktown either needs to evolve or die.


Say what? (this will be a shock to folks in several decades-old entertainment districts across the country)

----------


## BoulderSooner

> The problem is that 'entertainment districts' aren't sustainable.  Bricktown either needs to evolve or die.


actually they are ..

----------


## BoulderSooner

steve is tweeting that the OCURA board is not happy with the way the building interacts with the parking lots instead of the canal

----------


## Pete

Hooray!  Let's see where this leads.


Remember that OCURA has been completely restructured of late, with Joe Van Bullard demoted, Cathy O'Connor more or less over-seeing it and Larry Nichols as the chairman.

This is one of their first opportunities as newbies to assert themselves and demand more.

----------


## Larry OKC

> ...At this point, as Pete has already said, Hogan's work is almost finished.  I don't see Lower Bricktown changing much.  *But this needs to be ammo for any future public investment projects* where any notion of urbanism is rested upon.  No crystal ball here obviously but there are cities like Minneapolis, Omaha, and others that are emerging competitors and if they get it better than we do, this investment wont return as envisioned.


I agree but I can hear them now: "What are you talking about? What has been developed there has been a great success. We need more of the same"

----------


## Pete

Once the boulevard is in place, the light will shine even more brightly on LBT to the point it will look even worse.

The biggest problem with this development (apart from the developer himself) was there was no real design oversight other than by a very weak OCURA.  Hogan's plans have always been outside the purview of the big three design review committees:  Bricktown, Downtown and Urban.

----------


## G.Walker

All Randy has to do is have it redesigned as a fake two story building, he can design it to have really high ceilings, and make it look like a two story building, when it really is not, and have it pushed more to the canal, which he will probably do, then it will be approved,

----------


## dankrutka

> "Urban Renewal commissioners are NOT willing to approve the latest Lower Bricktown restaurant design proposed by Randy Hogan.."
> 
> -Tweet from Steve : https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer/s...56033436041217


Good news that they're not just rubber stamping anything. Hopefully this has some teeth for real change. At the very least let's see some real interaction with the canal.

----------


## Pete

Steve's next Tweet said their issue was with how the building interacts with the surface parking, not the canal.

So much for hope.

----------


## king183

> Steve's next Tweet said their issue was with how the building interacts with the surface parking, not the canal.
> 
> So much for hope.


I read that tweet as the commissioners being upset that the building is designed to interact with surface and not with the canal. In other words, they want the building to interact with the canal.

----------


## Pete

Yes, I think I misinterpreted.  Thanks for the correction.

Here it is:




> Commissioners unhappy with how the building is designed to interact with surface parking, not the Bricktown Canal.

----------


## Just the facts

> Say what? (this will be a shock to folks in several decades-old entertainment districts across the country)


I think you will find that those 'entertainment districts' evolved.  I'm not saying Bricktown isn't evolving, I was countering the argument putforth that said Bricktown was built as an entertainment district and this is all it will ever be.  Bricktown is obviously already moving beyond an 'entertainment district' with the addition of office, retail, education, hotel/conference center, and housing.  If after 20 years Bricktown was still just bars and restraunts it would have died a long time ago.

An entertainment district isn't going to make it long term on Friday and Satruday night crowds and lunch rush.  It has to be more than that - which Bricktown is.  That was my only point.

----------


## Steve

> Steve's next Tweet said their issue was with how the building interacts with the surface parking, not the canal.
> 
> So much for hope.


They don't like the building either.

----------


## Steve

> I think you will find that those 'entertainment districts' evolved.  I'm not saying Bricktown isn't evolving, I was countering the argument putforth that said Bricktown was built as an entertainment district and this is all it will ever be.  Bricktown is obviously already moving beyond an 'entertainment district' with the addition of office, retail, education, hotel/conference center, and housing.  If after 20 years Bricktown was still just bars and restraunts it would have died a long time ago.
> 
> An entertainment district isn't going to make it long term on Friday and Satruday night crowds and lunch rush.  It has to be more than that - which Bricktown is.  That was my only point.


Ok, that makes more sense...

----------


## Pete

> They don't like the building either.


Good news.

Thanks for your stories about this issue, as they bring awareness and certainly help to influence the subsequent decisions.

----------


## mcca7596

Why didn't they bring these issues up with Toby Keith's?

----------


## Pete

This is a completely different OCURA group since Toby Keith's was built.

----------


## Just the facts

> Why didn't they bring these issues up with Toby Keith's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pete
> 
> ...


Let's not rule out the presence of an engaged public, made possible in part by OKCTalk and other social media.  We had Oklahomas Own at the time, but the audience was very small.

----------


## CaptDave

Imagine something like this in place of the single story strip mall in front of the theater.....

http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/wp...ity-center.png

----------


## Just the facts

> Imagine something like this in place of the single story strip mall in front of the theater.....
> 
> http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/wp...ity-center.png


That looks almost like what Hogan promised.

----------


## Pete

> Let's not rule out the presence of an engaged public, made possible in part by OKCTalk and other social media.  We had Oklahomas Own at the time, but the audience was very small.


Yes, and Steve's articles and blog definitely brought attention to the issue.


Just six months ago, OCURA didn't even publish it's agenda or minutes.  Folding it into the Economic Development Trust has already brought massive changes.

Up until very recently, most of their dealings were very much out of the public eye.

----------


## Mr. Cotter

> That looks almost like what Hogan promised.


Looking at the renderings used initially by Hogan, it reminds me of something we had in Dayton:  The Greene | Dayton Ohio | Stores Restaurants Activities 

For what it is, it's really nice.  It functions as a national chain shopping mall, but adds a large ammount of office space and rented apartments.  There is no canal, but it's a very walkable development, and is a nice place spend a day.  Had Lower Bricktown been developed like this, I don't think anyone would have too much to complain about.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Imagine something like this in place of the single story strip mall in front of the theater.....
> 
> http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/wp...ity-center.png


Where is this? Carmel, Indiana? Oklahoma just doesn't get things like that.

----------


## CaptDave

> Where is this? Carmel, Indiana? Oklahoma just doesn't get things like that.


Yes, Carmel, IN. 

I think we CAN do things like this if we insist on great rather than settling for "good enough" or "it is better than nothing".

----------


## Rover

> Where is this? Carmel, Indiana? Oklahoma just doesn't get things like that.


Looks similar to one in downtown Pasadena, CA.

----------


## Bellaboo

Tip of the hat to everyone on this board for making an impact in OKC. First the boulevard and now hopefully KD's cafe.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Looks similar to one in downtown Pasadena, CA.


This illustrates my point.  I never hear someone say that a nice development like that looks similar to anything here. I just would like to see better here.

----------


## Pete

There are tons of developments like this in Cali, even in not very dense areas.

Given that the condos at the Centennial sold out in no time flat at very high prices, it shows the interest in housing in that immediate area.

----------


## BBatesokc

> Let's not rule out the presence of an engaged public, made possible in part by OKCTalk and other social media.  We had Oklahomas Own at the time, but the audience was very small.


Speaking of..... I was really hoping Griffin Communications was going to do something cool with Oklahomasown.com when they bought it from me, but, as of yet, it hasn't panned out that way.

----------


## soonerguru

I didn't attend the meeting, but does Hogan still sport that mullet?

----------


## soonerguru

> Speaking of..... I was really hoping Griffin Communications was going to do something cool with Oklahomasown.com when they bought it from me, but, as of yet, it hasn't panned out that way.


You mean, a repository for archived "My Two Cents" from Kelly Ogle doesn't make sticky online content?

----------


## OKCTalker

Excellent quotes from Larry Nichols and Jim Tolbert in Steve's story in the DO this morning. I hope Randy was listening, but he seemed more interested in defending an unappealing proposal. I hope v 2.0 is better.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Yes, and Steve's articles and blog definitely brought attention to the issue.
> 
> 
> Just six months ago, OCURA didn't even publish it's agenda or minutes.  Folding it into the Economic Development Trust has already brought massive changes.
> 
> Up until very recently, most of their dealings were very much out of the public eye.


this can't be stated enough ......  just a small correction ... it is really now part of the Alliance for economic development .. not the ED trust ..

the Alliance has a pretty good website now OCURA has a good site now as well ...       and i believe that OCURA will be on SIRE soon as well

----------


## Richard at Remax

> There are tons of developments like this in Cali, even in not very dense areas.
> 
> Given that the condos at the Centennial sold out in no time flat at very high prices, it shows the interest in housing in that immediate area.


Im not dissagreeing with you that there is an interest in housing in that area, but when the Centennial opened a large chunk of the units were bought up by Devon/chk to use as corporate housing. So the numbers look better than they should. My folks just bought one of the units Devon was trying to unload back in January. Now there is a unit in forclosure and still some devon units that still havent sold yet. CHK has 2/3 for sale as well.

----------


## Skyline

I would like to see Mr. Hogan step up to the plate and hit a home run with a "Centennial II" type project. Ground floor restaurant / retail and upper level either offices or condos. He has done it before and the Centennial is his crown jewel of Lower Bricktown. There is absolutely no reason that Hogan can not be successful with a higher quality development here.

----------


## betts

And yet I know people who are buying at Centennial, and I know someone who sold their apartment there almost as soon as it went in the market recently. It wouldn't be my choice, but there are certainly sales occurring. 

We still don't have the demographic interest in downtown living that many bigger and more well-established cities have, but I do see opinions changing. I suspect there is housing that could be built in lower Bricktown that would have even more appeal than the Centennial. Parking is a Bricktown issue, but its the perfect location for true loft living and might provide a closer to entry level housing than new construction. I wonder why that isn't being explored more for unused upper floors in Bricktown.

----------


## CaptDave

> Parking is a Bricktown issue, but its the perfect location for true loft living and might provide a closer to entry level housing than new construction. I wonder why that isn't being explored more for unused upper floors in Bricktown.


I've wondered this for quite a while now. I think most larger buildings' upper floors are vacant from appearances from the street save for a few offices here and there and ACM@UCO. It seems to be a perfect opportunity to convert several of the upper floors to lofts.

----------


## king183

> I would like to see Mr. Hogan step up to the plate and hit a home run with a "Centennial II" type project. Ground floor restaurant / retail and upper level either offices or condos. He has done it before and the Centennial is his crown jewel of Lower Bricktown. There is absolutely no reason that Hogan can not be successful with a higher quality development here.


Yeah, but there is absolutely no way he's going to do that. Based on his first design for this restaurant, he's just trying to do the minimum "nice" thing allowable. He has no interest in making this a "homerun" project. He'll update the design to placate the commissioners, we'll all be pissed about it, he'll go ahead and build it, and for the next 20 years we'll be lamenting what could have been and the missed opportunities.  We've seen this show before.

----------


## Steve

Attention Architects, Designers, Architectural Students! | OKC Central

----------


## Buffalo Bill

> And yet I know people who are buying at Centennial, and I know someone who sold their apartment there almost as soon as it went in the market recently. It wouldn't be my choice, but there are certainly sales occurring.


According to the Assessor site, 7 units have changed hands so far this year.

----------


## CaptDave

> Attention Architects, Designers, Architectural Students! | OKC Central


Great idea Steve. I have seen what these talented people can do when their creative talents are used. It wouldn't surprise me to see half a dozen viable concepts that far exceed the least common denominator mess thrown out previously.

----------


## Steve

Apparently some OKC Central readers aren't happy with this post....

----------


## Just the facts

> Apparently some OKC Central readers aren't happy with this post....


LOL Steve, you seemed to hit a nerve.  I only wish I possed even a minimal amount of drawing/design skills.

----------


## CaptDave

> Apparently some OKC Central readers aren't happy with this post....


They are the ones that would be ok with a metal arch span building thrown up there because of property owner rights. There will always be a number of people who won't care about good design if they do not have to look at it every day. They completely ignore the public side of the public/private partnership and the duty of the public side to protect the tax payer's interests from cheap, lowest common denominator development.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Apparently some OKC Central readers aren't happy with this post....


What is their problem? 

My earlier assertion that hogan is a fool is ringing truer and truer.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Shawn and I were talking about this yesterday and he mentioned something really important to note.  Toby Keith's restaurant used to have a decent canal frontage but once they were allowed to close that patio off, they lost it.


they closed the patio off because no one ever used it

----------


## Pete

Hogan's argument that the "tenant is king" doesn't even make sense.

Hal Smith restaurants occupy lots of beautiful elaborate buildings:  Redrock Canyon Grill, Mahogany Steakhouse, Charlestons, even Louies have great patios and curb appeal.

I don't believe for a minute Hal is demanding a plain Jane building with absolutely zero character or interaction with one of the most unique settings in all of OKC.  It would be like having Redrock oriented to the parking lot instead of Lake Hefner.

I think this is the case of a developer putting in the least amount of effort and investment while still pulling good rent from restaurants anxious to take advantage of a very heavily tax-supported development.

----------


## Mr. Cotter

You're right.  The Louie's in Midtown has a great sidewalk patio, and most of the Lake Hefner locations take full advantage of their location.

----------


## Larry OKC

> Why didn't they bring these issues up with Toby Keith's?


While TK's main entrance was the parking lot side, it did interact with the canal with patio seating and an entrance. Didn't it also have a Canal drop off/on as well? TK is pushed fairly close to the Canal edge too IIRC. I know they enclosed the patio area but isn't it still accessable from the Canal side?  Plus TK looks like a 2 story building from the outside. As someone suggested, if he doesn't want to build 2 "real" stories and the increased density, he can fake it again.

----------


## Bellaboo

Red Rock Canyon Grill has it's entry oriented on the side of the building, as not to cater to the parking lot. The same could be done here, thus putting the emphesus on the canal.

----------


## Larry OKC

> they closed the patio off because no one ever used it


It was used often (weather permitting)




> It wasn't attached to the canal would be the reason I would speculate.


??? It is very close to the Canal

*Pete*: true, there is the small 2nd level "private" dining area. From what I heard, it was intended for Mr. Keith's personal use for his friends & family etc. Don't know if it is open to the general public for private events or not.

----------


## Pete

Toby Keith's does have a 2nd level, it's just a small area:



And besides, TK's was allowed under the old OCURA regime which also allowed all the other half-arsed development in Lower Bricktown.  AND it has a significant patio on the canal (now enclosed):




Our expectations and requirements of developers should be increasing, not rolling backwards.

----------


## Skyline

Is there anyway that a new building in this location could interact with the canal and the new boulevard?

----------


## Fantastic

> TK is pushed fairly close to the Canal edge too IIRC.


I wouldn't say it is all that close to the Canal.  Toby's patio, even before it was enclosed was NOTHING like Bourbon Street's patio (which is right next to the canal, unlike Toby's)




> I know they enclosed the patio area but isn't it still accessable from the Canal side?


It is not.  The canal side entrance has been closed, and there is a sign telling people to go to the other side.

----------


## Rover

> It was used often (weather permitting)


Not to be argumentative, but why would any business close a section that is used often and is profitable, or at least creates a draw for the rest of their business?  And, if they determined it to be not-profitable, should they be forced to keep it open and in service at a loss?  What would you do as a business owner?  

I think sometimes we want things to be what they are not.  Wishful thinking doesn't make facts.  The truth is there is very little on-canal eating/drinking now.  OKCitians prefer the comfort of indoor and the bug free climate controlled eating areas except on 25-30 really fine evenings.  On top of that, their is very little foot traffic along the canal level in lower BT, even in front of the theaters.  It is lively at street level, not so much at canal level.  The most exciting thing for patio diners to see at TKs or the new restaurant is the back of the Sonic building - an area devoid of complementary activity.  People arrive and park in the lot and enter from the south...nobody walks there from the canal or takes a canal boat there.  

Like shopping centers place anchor stores at each end to get people traffic throughout the mall when they walk between them, the Canal needs a popular draw at the east end of the current TK parking lot.  Build the structured parking at the boulevard facing side on the west end of the parking lot and make the people walk past these places.  Activity will beget activity.  Instead of trying to force them to do something that will be unsuccessful, try creating an atmosphere that will make it profitable to do what is preferred.

----------


## Rover

Possible answer...don't build anything on the lot, but make it a passageway to create traffic.  Line it on East and West with small shops & outdoor seating.  Entrance to the shops from the canal side.  Boulevard side for drop off and pick up only.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Possible answer...don't build anything on the lot, but make it a passageway to create traffic.  Line it on East and West with small shops & outdoor seating.  Entrance to the shops from the canal side.  Boulevard side for drop off and pick up only.


that is not a possible plan

----------


## Fantastic

> The most exciting thing for patio diners to see at TKs or the new restaurant is the back of the Sonic building - an area devoid of complementary activity.


Only partially true.  Asside from the organized break dancing, I have seen other activities (mostly music related) on that little stage area.  True these events are few and far between, but they do happen on occasion.  I would like to see that area put to more use for entertainment.




> People arrive and park in the lot and enter from the south...nobody walks there from the canal or takes a canal boat there.


Again, only partially true.  Yes the majority of people enter from the parking lot side.  But there is a large number of people (tourists and locals alike) that enjoy walking the Canal from end to end.  Usually they complain about the parking lot only entrance.  As far as Water Taxi passengers go... you are DEAD WRONG on that one, friend.  The Toby Keith's dock is BY FAR the most popular drop off point along the tour (and it's not because that's where they parked).  There is a very large number of people who ask to be let off there.  When asked if they are eating there or if this is where they parked, a vast majority say are eating there, and will eventually be picked up there again with to-go boxes (either that or they are going up the ramp to Earl's)

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> that is not a possible plan


I really don't know why you post these useless bits of commentary on this site if you don't bother to provide any shred of supporting reasoning.

Stating the reason or reasons _why_ this idea is not possible would be a good start.

----------


## Rover

> that is not a possible plan


Okay, I'll bite...why not?

----------


## Rover

If we put parking at the ends and the primary entances and exits on the canal side with destinations in between, would it not help? The boulevard will see the back of the theaters and the parking lots....pretty bad.  

Using the exiting opening as a passage/plaza might encourage funneling more foot traffic from parking and walking in bricktown and less that just drives into the backside and goes ONLY to a single destination.

----------


## Just the facts

I like the idea of adding side retail between the canal and parking.  Heck, even a side enterance to the restraunt wouldn't be bad, especially if it had a covered canopy leading out to the canal.

----------


## Rover

> Only partially true.  Asside from the organized break dancing, I have seen other activities (mostly music related) on that little stage area.  True these events are few and far between, but they do happen on occasion.  I would like to see that area put to more use for entertainment.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, only partially true.  Yes the majority of people enter from the parking lot side.  But there is a large number of people (tourists and locals alike) that enjoy walking the Canal from end to end.  Usually they complain about the parking lot only entrance.  As far as Water Taxi passengers go... you are DEAD WRONG on that one, friend.  The Toby Keith's dock is BY FAR the most popular drop off point along the tour (and it's not because that's where they parked).  There is a very large number of people who ask to be let off there.  When asked if they are eating there or if this is where they parked, a vast majority say are eating there, and will eventually be picked up there again with to-go boxes (either that or they are going up the ramp to Earl's)


I think rather than catagorizing is as "partially" true, it is more accurately "mostly" true.  There is nothing that creates continuous foot traffic at the bottom end.  There is no energy and excitement created along the canal itself.  Nobody wants to sit outside in marginal weather and watch water in a concrete ditch.  It is the activity and the liveliness that people want to see and be a part of.  Otherwise, you may as well be grilling burger on your backyard patio in the burbs.  The outdoor store might have helped if it would have been on the west side of the property with the parking lot on the south and east sides with the main entrance abuting the corner of the canal.  People exit their cars and walk away from the canal.  And, there is nothing to attract that clientel to the upper part of the canal where the restaurants, etc. are.  People just get back in their car and drive away.  The anchors need to be ON the canal.

----------


## Rover

The Residence Inn does not funnel their clientel onto the canal, but rather onto the parking lot OPPOSITE the canal.  They even created their own barrier on the backside, something you RARELY see occupied.  

Even Sonic failed to create a connection to the canal.  

And the theater creates traffic above the canal, not on it.  It almost makes the canal something to be overcome, not something that feeds it and it feeds the canal.  

Red Pin...well, you have to know it is there and it doesn't create any substantial traffic or great interaction with the canal.  

All in all, it is no wonder that there is no great rush to put another "patio" on the canal in an area that is woefully underutilized.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> Attention Architects, Designers, Architectural Students! | OKC Central


I'll repost my comment from the blog here:




> While I doubt “they don’t know how to design this building differently”, the blame for this must fall on the developer.  The architect can’t make his client spend more money or “do the right thing” from an urban design standpoint.  Ultimately the developer is the client of the architect and unless the developer is asking for something illegal, the architect will design what his client desires within the constraints of budget.  As an employee of Rees, Jason Wint does not have much say in the decision to take the job.  His directive from his firm is to design a building to meet the requirements of their client.  If he did make that statement about lacking the ability to design the building any other way, then that is unfortunate.  However, his responsibility is to his client and it is unfair to call him out this way.  The portions of the design that are in question are 100% the results of client requirements and not a lack of skill or understanding on the part of the design team.  I realize this is frustrating, but to throw blame around wherever it will stick is reckless.
> 
> I’d love to take a crack at this design problem, but I don’t want to step on the toes of a fellow architect.  I have no doubt, that if Mr. Wint didn’t have the constraints of budget, client requirements, etc., he could design a building that would make all of us happy.


If I am going to spend my time designing a better OKC, I'd rather devote my effort to other places.  I'm particularly excited about some ideas for the Plaza District, but that is a discussion for another time and thread...

----------


## Fantastic

> I think rather than catagorizing is as "partially" true, it is more accurately "mostly" true.  There is nothing that creates continuous foot traffic at the bottom end.  There is no energy and excitement created along the canal itself.  Nobody wants to sit outside in marginal weather and watch water in a concrete ditch.  It is the activity and the liveliness that people want to see and be a part of.  Otherwise, you may as well be grilling burger on your backyard patio in the burbs.  The outdoor store might have helped if it would have been on the west side of the property with the parking lot on the south and east sides with the main entrance abuting the corner of the canal.  People exit their cars and walk away from the canal.  And, there is nothing to attract that clientel to the upper part of the canal where the restaurants, etc. are.  People just get back in their car and drive away.  The anchors need to be ON the canal.


Don't get me wrong, I absolutly agree with you, I was just pointing out that there are things going on, and people walking around in that part of the Canal.  But it is true and you are 100% correct when you say that the anchors need to be on the Canal, and that would bring more activity.





> If we put parking at the ends and the primary entances and exits on the canal side with destinations in between, would it not help? The boulevard will see the back of the theaters and the parking lots....pretty bad.  
> 
> Using the exiting opening as a passage/plaza might encourage funneling more foot traffic from parking and walking in bricktown and less that just drives into the backside and goes ONLY to a single destination.


Very much agree.

----------


## Fantastic

> The Residence Inn does not funnel their clientel onto the canal, but rather onto the parking lot OPPOSITE the canal.  They even created their own barrier on the backside, something you RARELY see occupied.  
> 
> Even Sonic failed to create a connection to the canal.  
> 
> And the theater creates traffic above the canal, not on it.  It almost makes the canal something to be overcome, not something that feeds it and it feeds the canal.  
> 
> Red Pin...well, you have to know it is there and it doesn't create any substantial traffic or great interaction with the canal.  
> 
> All in all, it is no wonder that there is no great rush to put another "patio" on the canal in an area that is woefully underutilized.


All true

----------


## dankrutka

> I'll repost my comment from the blog here:
> 
> 
> If I am going to spend my time designing a better OKC, I'd rather devote my effort to other places.  I'm particularly excited about some ideas for the Plaza District, but that is a discussion for another time and thread...


OKC needs this area and others to develop positively. A tourist is 100 times more likely to see Bricktown than the Plaza District...

----------


## onthestrip

> OKC needs this area and others to develop positively. A tourist is 100 times more likely to see Bricktown than the Plaza District...


A city has to focus on things for its residents too, not just worry about tourist districts.

----------


## bluedogok

> The problem is that 'entertainment districts' aren't sustainable.  Bricktown either needs to evolve or die.





> Say what? (this will be a shock to folks in several decades-old entertainment districts across the country)


Practically the only "new" buildings being built on many of the existing surface parking lots in Denver's LoDo area is residential, most with ground floor retail and this areas life as an entertainment district is almost 30 years old. On our street there are many office/residential in many of the original buildings, an apartment on the top floor of our building and in the building next to us. Most vibrant entertainment districts morph into a mixed use district. The Dallas West End is a prime example of an entertainment district that stagnated because it stayed mainly an entertainment district. There were a few offices, my former company in Dallas was located next to Dick's last Resort and moved out because of the issues of being located down there, many of the same issues we face being located in LoDo. I would actually prefer being in another part of Downtown Denver rather than right in LoDo.

----------


## dankrutka

> A city has to focus on things for its residents too, not just worry about tourist districts.


Agreed. That's why I said "AND." We need both and more...

----------


## Praedura

A nice shot of where the restaurant will go:



Taken from this blog entry:
The Fantastic Adventures Of Oklahoma City: Cha-Ching! A Lower Bricktown Moneyball!

That blog post is from April, long before the current controversy, but still a good read.

----------


## Fantastic

> A nice shot of where the restaurant will go:
> 
> 
> 
> Taken from this blog entry:
> The Fantastic Adventures Of Oklahoma City: Cha-Ching! A Lower Bricktown Moneyball!
> 
> That blog post is from April, long before the current controversy, but still a good read.


Hmmm... I was about to delete that (didn't feel it was well written).

----------


## Praedura

Ah, so that's you!

No, don't delete that -- it's a good read. Informative and funny. Especially like your description of the spousal disagreement on the tastiness of Mickey Mantle's food, and the attempt by water taxi guides to draw away attention from the dull/empty sections of the canal.

----------


## Fantastic

> Ah, so that's you!
> 
> No, don't delete that -- it's a good read. Informative and funny. Especially like your description of the spousal disagreement on the tastiness of Mickey Mantle's food, and the attempt by water taxi guides to draw away attention from the dull/empty sections of the canal.


Thanks!  That's the best compliment I've recieved in a while!  And for the record... when I said in the blog that I had no problem with the development, I was more focused on the idea of it shielding the parking from the canal (I don't want anyone confused by what I ment there)... I would have gone further into detail in future blogs about how the development could be better, but I quit writing the blogs due to a summer long crisis (I plan on writing again soon)

----------


## Pete

Revised plan for restaurant building to be considered by OCURA on Wednesday:

----------


## CaptDave

An improvement over the original and relatively easy  reconfiguration. Not sure why this wasn't the design submitted from the beginning. I would prefer more height - at least 3 floors - but what would occupy that space? Is it cost prohibitive to build that space as a blank slate that could be configured as commercial, residential, or retail eventually? I know it would only add to the large amount of upper floor empty space in Bricktown, but that location should be in demand for something in the relatively near future.

----------


## Praedura

That is much, much better!

Love the sign and the patio deck.

----------


## Pete

Big Improvement but why not make the deck bigger?

I wonder if there is some reason they can't extend it further to the west.  Seems strangely truncated.

----------


## dankrutka

Definitely an improvement. I also wish it were taller, but I appreciate the interaction with the canal.

----------


## Just the facts

oops - never mind.  Looked at it backwards.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> An improvement over the original and relatively easy  reconfiguration. Not sure why this wasn't the design submitted from the beginning. I would prefer more height - at least 3 floors - but what would occupy that space? Is it cost prohibitive to build that space as a blank slate that could be configured as commercial, residential, or retail eventually? I know it would only add to the large amount of upper floor empty space in Bricktown, but that location should be in demand for something in the relatively near future.


i agree i wish the would build it taller .. but this is much better than the origional ...    as to why this wasn't the original this ... remember it is a negotiation, if they presented this first there is a good chance that people would have wanted more ...now they come back to this and people are happy

----------


## BoulderSooner

> An improvement over the original and relatively easy  reconfiguration. Not sure why this wasn't the design submitted from the beginning. I would prefer more height - at least 3 floors - but what would occupy that space? Is it cost prohibitive to build that space as a blank slate that could be configured as commercial, residential, or retail eventually? I know it would only add to the large amount of upper floor empty space in Bricktown, but that location should be in demand for something in the relatively near future.


i agree i wish the would build it taller .. but this is much better than the original ...    as to why this wasn't the original this ... remember it is a negotiation, if they presented this first there is a good chance that people would have wanted more ...now they come back to this and people are happy

----------


## Praedura

Love the hallway allowing visitors from the south side to walk straight through to the canal side (or at least see the canal from that side even if they don't walk through).

Love those exterior lights. This looks so much better than the original submission.

----------


## kevinpate

> Big Improvement but why not make the deck bigger?
> 
> I wonder if there is some reason they can't extend it further to the west.  Seems strangely truncated.



Maybe to make it easier to wall it in after a year or so?

----------


## soonerguru

Much improved. Can't believe they wanted to face the parking lot in the first place.

----------


## catch22

What does the south face look like? Also they got "West Elevation" and "Easy Elevation" mixed up.

----------


## BDP

> Much improved. Can't believe they wanted to face the parking lot in the first place.


Yeah. This was so easy, it's embarrassing that the city had to ask them to consider the canal in their development.

----------


## Pete

> What does the south face look like? Also they got "West Elevation" and "Easy Elevation" mixed up.


I just added the south elevation above.

----------


## MonkeesFan

Are they really going to name it "Kevin Durant restaurant"? If so, that is really dumb because what if Kevin goes to another team in the future? What will happen to the restaurant then?

I know you all are going to say "Kevin will never leave" etc etc but anything can happen

----------


## Bellaboo

> What does the south face look like? Also they got "West Elevation" and "Easy Elevation" mixed up.


I thought that at first, but I believe that the 'East elevation' is looking East, such as the same for the West.

----------


## catch22

> I thought that at first, but I believe that the 'East elevation' is looking East, such as the same for the West.


Then the North and South elevations are mixed up then.

----------


## catch22

> I just added the south elevation above.


Thank you!

----------


## Bellaboo

> Then the North and South elevations are mixed up then.


Yep, I think so too.

----------


## jn1780

> Are they really going to name it "Kevin Durant restaurant"? If so, that is really dumb because what if Kevin goes to another team in the future? What will happen to the restaurant then?
> 
> I know you all are going to say "Kevin will never leave" etc etc but anything can happen


Why do they sell Kevin Durant products that say Oklahoma City Thunder on it when he may move to another team?

 A restaurant is no different than anything else that is marketed with his name. They would just change the menu and the sign above the door if for some reason he moved.

----------


## MonkeesFan

> Why do they sell Kevin Durant products that say Oklahoma City Thunder on it when he may move to another team?
> 
>  A restaurant is no different than anything else that is marketed with his name. They would just change the menu and the sign above the door if for some reason he moved.


Nah, I bet they will shut it down

----------


## Matt

> Nah, I bet they will shut it down


They'll probably implode it.

----------


## metro

While an improvement, OKC deserves better QC standards. What an unimaginative stiff who designed this. Randy Hogan is a blemish on OKC development.

----------


## metro

Yes, creative limitations by the builder....

----------


## Snowman

> Are they really going to name it "Kevin Durant restaurant"? If so, that is really dumb because what if Kevin goes to another team in the future? What will happen to the restaurant then?
> 
> I know you all are going to say "Kevin will never leave" etc etc but anything can happen


As long as he does not pull a Lebron James exit, he probably has enough good will that it would not have to be changed, especially if we win a championship or keep making deep runs for the next few years.

----------


## ljbab728

Revised plans for Kevin Durant restaurant in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown are set for review | NewsOK.com

----------


## Bellaboo

> Are they really going to name it "Kevin Durant restaurant"? If so, that is really dumb because what if Kevin goes to another team in the future? What will happen to the restaurant then?
> 
> I know you all are going to say "Kevin will never leave" etc etc but anything can happen


Anything can happen in the twilight years of an NBA professional, but KD has stated he'd like to play for just one organization in his career as long as they were competitive...and hopefully the Thunder will be.

----------


## Pete

Steve notes in his story that it looks like the KD restaurant will now take the full building, about 10,000 s.f.

----------


## dankrutka

KD's chances of staying past this contract will greatly increase if OKC wins a title.

----------


## MonkeesFan

> KD's chances of staying past this contract will greatly increase if OKC wins a title.


And that is a big IF, they did came close last year though and they have a bright future so they will probably win a title in the future

----------


## Spartan

I don't like the new building much more but it is enough of an improvement that it will probably be allowed by OCURA. I still wish OCURA would hold Hogan to doing more than 1-store pad sites..ugh

----------


## Pete

The reality is that if they had first presented what we see now, there would have been just as big an outcry as with the original submittal.

Hogan basically worked all of us by presenting something so incredibly horrible that we're all now prepared to accept something well below what should be built.

Come to think of it, he's been doing that for about the last 10 years.

----------


## dankrutka

Yeah. I think the strategy worked on me. The first design was so terrible that I was happy just to not get that. I think everyone can agree that Hogan is not good for Bricktown.

----------


## metro

I basically said what Pete said in my previous post, only I'm NOT buying the new proposal either, it's still cheap crap and horrible urban design and Id be embarrassed to put my name on it if I were KD.

----------


## iMAX386

Watching the recent ESPN 30 for 30 "Broke" makes me wonder if this restaurant will become a weight around KD's neck financially at any point in the future like so many of those stories in that documentary.  Anyone else watch that and think of this?

----------


## rcjunkie

> Watching the recent ESPN 30 for 30 "Broke" makes me wonder *if this restaurant will become a weight around KD's neck financially* at any point in the future like so many of those stories in that documentary.  Anyone else watch that and think of this?


NONE AT ALL, he has very little, if any, financial responsibility in this venture. (other then what he's being paid to use his name)

----------


## rcjunkie

> Watching the recent ESPN 30 for 30 "Broke" makes me wonder *if this restaurant will become a weight around KD's neck financially* at any point in the future like so many of those stories in that documentary.  Anyone else watch that and think of this?


NONE AT ALL, he has very little, if any, financial responsibility in this venture. (other then what he's being paid to use his name)

----------


## Bellaboo

> Watching the recent ESPN 30 for 30 "Broke" makes me wonder if this restaurant will become a weight around KD's neck financially at any point in the future like so many of those stories in that documentary.  Anyone else watch that and think of this?


KD has ZERO money invloved......HSG paid him for naming rights, that's all.

----------


## onthestrip

> Watching the recent ESPN 30 for 30 "Broke" makes me wonder if this restaurant will become a weight around KD's neck financially at any point in the future like so many of those stories in that documentary.  Anyone else watch that and think of this?


As said, KD probably has zero investment in this but also the guys in that 30 for 30 made only a fraction of what KD is guaranteed. Many of those on "Broke" probably didnt make more than $15-20mil over their careers, which after taxes, agent/managers fees and some unwise spending can leave you with very little. KD has a contract for over a $100million, or somewhere around that....hes going to be alright.

----------


## Spartan

Well, if it's not a ridiculous position, I'm all for excoriating this new proposal too. There are more impressive pad sites fronting I-240.

----------


## Skyline

Which building would 'Hogan' say is his most successful in Lower Bricktown? Other than the theater? I think it would be the Centennial. 

Many developers find what works best for them in a certain area and then duplicate it at least a few times. Not sure why Hogan wouldn't want to duplicate the centennial with a KD restaurant being the primary tenant on the ground floor.

----------


## BDP

> Not sure why Hogan wouldn't want to duplicate the centennial with a KD restaurant being the primary tenant on the ground floor.


No doubt, but it seems Hogan is completely satisfied with mediocrity. Apathy is strong with this guy. With the freeway gone, there is so much potential to make it something really nice. But he just isn't interested in doing something to change the course of the development. It's hard for me to get too worked up about this development, because there is NOTHING he could put there that would make a significant impact on the area. The whole thing has to be redone before it becomes a real destination and I'm afraid that's only going to happen after a long period of decline and sustained vacancies. Unfortunately, I think the elevation of lower bricktown's status beyond "downtown's biggest free parking lot and strip mall" is predicated on it completely failing.

----------


## Spartan

How is Steve's contest going?

----------


## Steve

Architects didn't like the contest, even though most admitted to hating the original design.

----------


## Skyline

It's been officially Approved.

----------


## betts

> It's been officially Approved.


That's no surprise.  It will fit right in.  I'm just glad it now faces the canal and has outdoor dining (for now).

----------


## Larry OKC

The caption to the article pic mentioned more "balcony seating"... are they talking roof top seating or what?

----------


## Spartan

> It's been officially Approved.


OCURA has been had again..by Hogan. I at least hope drinks were on him.

----------


## bluedogok

> As long as he does not pull a Lebron James exit, he probably has enough good will that it would not have to be changed, especially if we win a championship or keep making deep runs for the next few years.


There is still a Shanahan's steak house in the Denver Tech Center area and he has been gone from the Broncos for awhile and with the Redskins for a few years. He still has a house here, Peyton Manning and family stayed there while they were looking for a house.




> NONE AT ALL, he has very little, if any, financial responsibility in this venture. (other then what he's being paid to use his name)





> KD has ZERO money invloved......HSG paid him for naming rights, that's all.


That is how most of those places are, Mickey Mantle's family has no investment in the Mickey Mantle Steak House, the Kirby's chain out of Dallas licensed his name for the OKC location. Vince Young has no involvement in his namesake restaurant in Downtown Austin, which for the owners is probably a good thing.

----------


## jbrown84

Well the obvious question is: Is Toby Keith in the same situation or is he actually invested in his restaurants? 

I like this new design aesthetically, but it's a real shame he didn't stack at least a couple floors of residential on top.

----------


## ljbab728

Oklahoma City panel approves revised plans for Bricktown restaurant tied to NBA star Kevin Durant | NewsOK.com

----------


## ABryant

Hogan is definitely leaving a future generation a legacy of crap (probably the buildings crumble in 50 years).

----------


## G22

> Well the obvious question is: Is Toby Keith in the same situation or is he actually invested in his restaurants? 
> 
> I like this new design aesthetically, but it's a real shame he didn't stack at least a couple floors of residential on top.


If the condos above Redpin bowling are so successful I can't understand why they wouldn't want to duplicate the same success with the KD restaurant.  I realize it's a smaller building but I'm sure several executive lofts or high end studio apartments could be built above the restaurant.  It would add so much more to this project and increase the bricktown vibe.

----------


## Spartan

> Wint told commissioners part of the challenge the design team faced was balancing the interest in *maintaining the historic warehouse district architecture* while also acknowledging its emergence as an urban entertainment district.


Huh?? This section of the article is sub-titled creative solutions... should instead be titled smoking some good ****

This whole Lower Bricktown thing is absurd.

----------


## Pete

Another rendering from Newsok.com:

----------


## HangryHippo

> Another rendering from Newsok.com:


The whole thing is just a joke.  Hogan's "developments" are jokes, save the Centennial, which was so nice he decided that he shouldn't replicate it anywhere else.

----------


## Spartan

I am more and more even wondering how the Centennial even got through his head.

We're talking about someone who clearly understands how to do quality urban development. He just chooses not to.

Then he goes to Jenks and proposes an urbanist's wet dream, not that he's going to deliver that either, but still.

----------


## HangryHippo

That's an excellent question.  I really, really don't understand how the hell he even got the idea for the Centennial.  I really loathe that ugly rust/vomit color he used on the exterior upper levels, but that building is nice and has good interactions and does well with retail, but the rest of his work just makes me want to demolish it all.




> I am more and more even wondering how the Centennial even got through his head.
> 
> We're talking about someone who clearly understands how to do quality urban development. He just chooses not to.
> 
> Then he goes to Jenks and proposes an urbanist's wet dream, not that he's going to deliver that either, but still.

----------


## Pete

A big part of the problem is that the land Hogan is developing is very cheap (virtually free) to him, therefore if he builds anything and gets rent, it's all profit.

Yes, he might make more if he built vertically but why bother with that when you go throw up a quick and cheap 1-story building that is pre-leased?

If he had to pay market value for the land he's been developing, he could never make these short, low-density projects work.


Just goes to show the perils of giving developers artificially cheap property in an urban area.

----------


## Spartan

> A big part of the problem is that the land Hogan is developing is very cheap (virtually free) to him, therefore if he builds anything and gets rent, it's all profit.
> 
> Yes, he might make more if he built vertically but why bother with that when you go throw up a quick and cheap 1-story building that is pre-leased?
> 
> If he had to pay market value for the land he's been developing, he could never make these short, low-density projects work.
> 
> 
> Just goes to show the perils of giving developers artificially cheap property in an urban area.


Pete, you've made some brilliant observations before, but this is up there at the top.

"You could say he got free land.." Paul Brum, right?

----------


## Larry OKC

> Well the obvious question is: Is Toby Keith in the same situation or is he actually invested in his restaurants? 
> 
> I like this new design aesthetically, but it's a real shame he didn't stack at least a couple floors of residential on top.


Couldn't find a definitive answer with a quick google search but the indications are that he either owns them or is heavily invested in them. I recall reading an article (think it was in the Oklahoman) back when it opened talking about how he taste tested all of the menu items.

*ON EDIT:* this from Wiki, looks like he owns some and has franchised others




> In 2005, Keith opened Toby Keith's I Love This Bar & Grill in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, as well as Tulsa, Oklahoma, and now also has restaurants in Thackerville, Oklahoma; Auburn Hills, Michigan; Kansas City; Las Vegas; Mesa, Arizona; St. Louis Park, Minnesota; Foxborough, Massachusetts;Cincinnati, Ohio and Denver, Colorado. Keith does not actually own the new restaurants; the new restaurant is the first in a franchise under Scottsdale, Arizona-based Capri Restaurant Group Enterprises LLC, which purchased the master license agreement to build more Toby Keith restaurants nationwide. Capri Restaurant Group is owned by Frank Capri, who opened the restaurant in Mesa in the shopping center known as Mesa Riverview and is planning on opening multiple locations across the country.[9]
> 
> In 2009, Capri Restaurant Group announced that it will open another I Love this Bar & Grill location in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania's South Side Works shopping and entertainment district.[10]
> February 2010 marked the opening of the Toby Keith's I Love This Bar & Grill in the Winstar World Casino, exit 1 on Interstate 35 in Oklahoma. Other locations opened in 2010 by the Capri Restaurant Group included those in Great Lakes Crossing in Auburn Hills, Michigan and in the Shops at West End in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. Expected to open in late 2011 is the location at The Shops at Oyster Point in Newport News, Virginia.[11][12]

----------


## jbrown84

Thanks, Larry!

----------


## Urbanized

Ground breaking was today around 4 PM. It was fun. KD attended and spoke a bit. Hal Smith said should take a little less than a year to complete, depending on weather. Hoped-for opening around September. KD half-jokingly said he would be seeing what he could do to hurry them along.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Fantastic, hopefully this will be a restaurant that I'll be more than happy to go to down in Bricktown.  Still never been to TKILTB&G because I've heard the food is nothing exceptional and the experience is just blah...

----------


## Urbanized

The food at Toby's is actually a near-carbon-copy of the menu at Red Rock Canyon Grill, with a few minor additions/subtractions. The main menu difference between the two is that the portions are larger (and prices slightly smaller) at Toby's. If you like RRCG, you would like Toby's.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I've been to RR maybe twice since it was open.  Hopefully the Durant restaurant will have more ambiance...  Sounds as if the food will be blah since it's a Hal Smith restaurant.

----------


## grandshoemaster

It looks like we have a name and some menu items.
Durant expands reach into restaurant business | Business | Oklahoma County News

----------


## mcca7596

> It looks like we have a name and some menu items.
> Durant expands reach into restaurant business | Business | Oklahoma County News


A hookah room!? That's pretty sweet...

----------


## Praedura

> A hookah room!? That's pretty sweet...


A hookah? You mean a streetwalkah?
 :Wink:

----------


## RadicalModerate

> The food at Toby's is actually a near-carbon-copy of the menu at Red Rock Canyon Grill, with a few minor additions/subtractions. The main menu difference between the two is that the portions are larger (and prices slightly smaller) at Toby's. If you like RRCG, you would like Toby's.


If what you said here is accurate, then apparently there is little to no control over the "Toby Keith" brand.

I attended a little "Family B-Day Get-Together up Nord" at what is apparently the only "Toby Keith" franchise in "The Cities" (Min/StP) and what hit the plate at that location was more like a poorly-managed Fridays/Chiles than Red Rock Canyon Grill on its worst day.  Including cooking stuff over charcoal burners, by the lake, in the parking lot right after the fire.

Red Rock Canyon Grille cannot be justifiably dissed.
I trust the same will be true of Durant's.
Unlike the "Harden's" that will inevitably "break ground" across the street. =)

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Construction begins on KD's restaurant | NewsOK.com

----------


## BoulderSooner

> If what you said here is accurate, then apparently there is little to no control over the "Toby Keith" brand.
> 
> I attended a little "Family B-Day Get-Together up Nord" at what is apparently the only "Toby Keith" franchise in "The Cities" (Min/StP) and what hit the plate at that location was more like a poorly-managed Fridays/Chiles than Red Rock Canyon Grill on its worst day.  Including cooking stuff over charcoal burners, by the lake, in the parking lot right after the fire.
> 
> Red Rock Canyon Grille cannot be justifiably dissed.
> I trust the same will be true of Durant's.
> Unlike the "Harden's" that will inevitably "break ground" across the street. =)


different ownership and different menus and various toby Kieth's

----------


## BoulderSooner

kd is a 25% equity partner

----------


## betts

The menu for KD's restaurant sounds interesting, and is different from anything else in the area.  I think.  I have been to Toby Keith's just once and can't remember the menu.  Whatever was on it, I wasn't really inclined to go again.  I've always thought Red Rock's food was very good so I'd be surprised if the menu at Toby Keith's was the same.  However, it might have been the atmosphere that turned me off - can't remember.

----------


## Urbanized

Well, believe it or don't believe it, but I know both places well and for many years have also known the GMs of both places. Essentially, they took recipes from RRCG (the steaks, meatloaf, rotisserie chicken and Caesar salad, for instance are basically identical), added some Toby-inspired flourishes (calf fries, fried bologna, etc.) and introduced them to a new customer. The menu has obviously had additions and subtractions through the years, and I do know that they had to dial up portions and dial down prices to make the typical TK customer happy, but the two places still have substantial menu and flavor similarities.

I understand it might go against the grain of some here who can't abide the thought that their relatively upscale lakefront open-kitchen place might (gasp!) share similarities with the cretin-frequented feed trough they appear to think TKs must be, but it's the truth. Just because food was cooked in a display kitchen doesn't make it taste better.

----------


## jedicurt

> Just because the food was cooked in a display kitchen doesn't make it taste better.


I seem to think this is the problem when a lot of people post talking about restaurants...  People think before they go in that they are going to get a great meal, and so regardless of whether it is or not, they come out saying it was.   I'm very particular about who i ask for recommendations of restaurants when i travel, just for this reason.

----------


## Urbanized

Hey, I'm not representing that either place (TK or RR) are covering new culinary ground. They mostly only aspire to be fresh and tasty comfort food in an environment that appeals to their respective clientele. In the case of RRCG that means a really picturesque lakefront location, great sunsets, stylish interior that actually aged pretty well for a place built in the '90s (I understand from a friend who serves as AGM there that the fire has afforded them the opportunity to do some modernizing/updating). In the case of TK, the folks going there are more appreciative of the roadhouse feel with lots of TK memorabilia and the impression that a great live country song might break out on stage at any minute. Neither experience is more valid than the other; environmental taste is completely subjective. There's room for everybody at the table.

What TK's is NOT is the overpriced, crappy food you find in most entertainment/entertainer-themed establishments. It's actually worth eating, if you're in the mood.

If Anthony Bourdain comes to visit me and wants me to show him around the food scene in Oklahoma City, I won't likely take him to either place, but I also wouldn't hesitate for a second to take out-of-town friends or family there and proclaim them Oklahoma favorites. What both places do well is provide (in my experience) fresh-tasting comfort dishes that are a major step above national chain places they probably most directly compete with, like Chili's, Texas Roadhouse, Outback, etc. They also enjoy a high degree of consistency.

Yesterday Hal Smith suggested KD's will probably fall somewhere between those places and (perhaps) Mickey Mantle's Steakhouse, and if that is how it turns out I think it will be a great and appropriate addition to Bricktown as a brand and as a dining choice.

----------


## onthestrip

What urbanized said about the food is what I thought when I first ate at TK, that it was very similar to RR, just maybe a little less fancy. However it's been a couple years since I've been to TK so not sure if much has changed

----------


## Pete

December 27th, 2012 - Kelley Chambers okc.biz

Durant's Dish

Co-owned by the Oklahoma City Thunders Kevin Durant and the Hal Smith Restaurant Group, KDs is slated to open by fall 

The Hal Smith Restaurant Group and Thunder star Kevin Durant plan to invest $5 million in construction of KDs, a Lower Bricktown restaurant branded with Durants initials. Smith says that, barring unpredictable Oklahoma weather, he expects the restaurant should be completed and open by fall.

Durant plans to be on-site often at the 10,000-square-foot restaurant, which sits along the Bricktown Canal between Toby Keiths I Love this Bar & Grill and Earls Rib Palace. It will be worth Durants while to be there because he is not just lending his famous name to the eatery; he will own 25% of the business.
He doesnt get a royalty. Hes an owner. Hes an equity player, Smith says. If we make money, he makes money.

What might help with that endeavor will be the presence not only of Durant, but also of his famous friends. Dont be surprised to see LeBron James or Kobe Bryant dining on some honey-dipped fried chicken, stuffed catfish with crab, slow smoked southern ribs, or chicken and shrimp jambalaya.

Ive told all my friends in the NBA whenever they come in town next year or so to come by KDs, he says. Theyre all looking forward to it as well.

Durant cant run the show since he does have a day job. And Smith has about 60 restaurants in seven states. So they brought in Joe Jungmann, from Paseo Grill and Sauced, to operate the new eatery.

----------


## Praedura

^^^ That's cool in so many ways. And given how KD is, I'm sure he means it as well.

Of course, it's good business first and foremost. Since he's a co-owner (and not just lending his name, as many have assumed) he has a stake in the success of the restaurant. And the possibility of having a KD encounter will do wonders for the place. I mean, you know so many folks will head down there in the hopes of seeing/meeting the Thunder star up close -- tourists and locals alike. What a draw.

It also shows how serious Kevin is about committing to the OKC area, promoting and boosting its downtown. Of course, he's already been promoting OKC for a long time, but this is on another and more personal level.

Great to hear Kevin say this.

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## Praedura

Oh, and speaking of Kevin Durant promoting OKC...

Big League City Commercial | OKC Central

----------


## soonerguru

Yay to Joe Jungmann! Good guy and good operator.

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## Urbanized

Agree completely. Joe will be a great asset for Bricktown.

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## Plutonic Panda

Shouldn't the status on this be changed to under-construction?

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## catch22

> Shouldn't the status on this be changed to under-construction?


Besides the ground breaking (which is extremely ceremonial and not really when ground is actually broken), dirt has not moved on this site.

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## Praedura

> Besides the ground breaking (which is extremely ceremonial and not really when ground is actually broken), dirt has not moved on this site.


That's kind of bizarre. Look, I know that ground breakings are media events, but they are supposed to correspond, more or less, to the beginning of construction. If you have a ground-breaking a month or more before absolutely anything starts... well, it just turns the whole notion of a ground-breaking into meaningless baloney.

----------


## catch22

> That's kind of bizarre. Look, I know that ground breakings are media events, but they are supposed to correspond, more or less, to the beginning of construction. If you have a ground-breaking a month or more before absolutely anything starts... well, it just turns the whole notion of a ground-breaking into meaningless baloney.


It's more of a milestone for the people who worked behind the scenes planning and designing and investing in the project. Signaling its finally not a paper project anymore and will be tangible.

----------


## OSUMom

> Oh, and speaking of Kevin Durant promoting OKC...
> 
> Big League City Commercial | OKC Central


Oh, is that what was going on along Robinson and Park?  Might we see an actual Durant sighting?

----------


## Praedura

There's a rendering that was recently posted to the LowerBricktown facebook page:




I don't think we've seen this exact one before, although it's obviously just a different angle from the same design shown earlier, as in this rendering released several months ago:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> The Kevin Durant restaurant is extremely disappointing for such prime real estate.


Quote taken from the Candlewood Suites thread, lol....

Anyway, I think the design of this restaurant is a whole lot better than a much more former famous restaurant at this address:

500 N. LaSalle
Chicago, IL

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## HangryHippo

> Quote taken from the Candlewood Suites thread, lol....
> 
> Anyway, I think the design of this restaurant is a whole lot better than a much more former famous restaurant at this address:
> 
> 500 N. LaSalle
> Chicago, IL


Forgive me, but what are you talking about here?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Forgive me, but what are you talking about here?


I only phrased it that way so that whomever read my post would research the address in a surprise discovery  :Wink:

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## HangryHippo

> I only phrased it that way so that whomever read my post would research the address in a surprise discovery


Which I did, only to find a sandwich chain...

----------


## Buffalo Bill

> Which I did, only to find a sandwich chain...


MJ

500 N. LaSalle St., Chicago, IL, 60610 - Free Standing Bldg Property - Off-Market on LoopNet.com

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## Just the facts

> Which I did, only to find a sandwich chain...


Jimmy Johns - and to be honest, it is still a way better building than KDs.

----------


## Mr. Cotter

You're suggesting that a renovated 125 year old three story building in the middle of Chicago is worse than a single level pad develpment in Lower Bricktown?

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## jedicurt

I do think that this development looks much better than what was originally proposed... but putting a pile of poo on a plate and putting parsley next to it might make it look better than it first did, but it still poo

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## HangryHippo

> You're suggesting that a renovated 125 year old three story building in the middle of Chicago is worse than a single level pad develpment in Lower Bricktown?


The audacity!

----------


## Mr. Cotter

> The audacity!


I just wanted to clarify your position.  I don't hate the KD design for what it is, and if all suburban pad developments looked like this, Edmond would be a much prettier place, but it will not be there to be renovated in 125 years.  I think develpments downtown should be built to last.

----------


## jedicurt

> I just wanted to clarify your position.  I don't hate the KD design for what it is, and if all suburban pad developments looked like this, Edmond would be a much prettier place, but it will not be there to be renovated in 125 years.  I think develpments downtown should be built to last.


this is exactly how i feel aswell

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## OKCisOK4me

> You're suggesting that a renovated 125 year old three story building in the middle of Chicago is worse than a single level pad develpment in Lower Bricktown?


The newer renderings are better than what was originally proposed and compared to the MJ restaurant, the only thing that made that location stellar was the accolades associated with the superstar himself by the time it took off.  To me, it looks awfully gaudy in the link provided.  I went to Chicago for my high school senior trip at the beginning of Summer '97 and I don't remember it looking like that.  I'd much rather enjoy the KD spot if it truly comes away the way it has been envisioned. 




> I do think that this development looks much better than what was originally proposed... but putting a pile of poo on a plate and putting parsley next to it might make it look better than it first did, but it still poo


What would you prefer then?  Deer droppings?

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## jedicurt

I would prefer a multi story building that is mixed use (perhaps have a couple of floors of apartments, and a non ground floor level of retail) and have it sit closer to the water, and to fully utilize the prime space that it is going to be sitting on, rather than looking like a building that could be sitting anywhere else in OKC.  If this were going in Midtown, or Classen Curve, or up on Memorial, i would love it... but it is going to be on the canal, in Bricktown, our attempt to revitalize, what OKC used to be, and making a spectacular entertainment district.   I want something that stands out as an example, something we can point to and say that represents OKC, and where we want to go...  

think of it in this theme... Kevin Durant is a wonderful spokesman for OKC, so is the Thunder... it has shown the rest of the country that we are much more than they thought we were.  since the restaurant is named for him, why can't that development do the same thing?

and maybe what i would prefer of a multistory mixed used building isnt the right idea to get that accomplished... but neither is the development that they have come up with

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## dcsooner

> I would prefer a multi story building that is mixed use (perhaps have a couple of floors of apartments, and a non ground floor level of retail) and have it sit closer to the water, and to fully utilize the prime space that it is going to be sitting on, rather than looking like a building that could be sitting anywhere else in OKC.  If this were going in Midtown, or Classen Curve, or up on Memorial, i would love it... but it is going to be on the canal, in Bricktown, our attempt to revitalize, what OKC used to be, and making a spectacular entertainment district.   I want something that stands out as an example, something we can point to and say that represents OKC, and where we want to go...  
> 
> think of it in this theme... Kevin Durant is a wonderful spokesman for OKC, so is the Thunder... it has shown the rest of the country that we are much more than they thought we were.  since the restaurant is named for him, why can't that development do the same thing?
> 
> and maybe what i would prefer of a multistory mixed used building isnt the right idea to get that accomplished... but neither is the development that they have come up with


I could not agree more!!!  OKC has the most mundane/ unimaginative looking architecture (aside from Devon Tower) of any major city (?) I have ever visited

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## Spartan

Is it built yet? &

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## HOT ROD

> *I would prefer a multi story building that is mixed use (perhaps have a couple of floors of apartments, and a non ground floor level of retail) and have it sit closer to the water, and to fully utilize the prime space that it is going to be sitting on, rather than looking like a building that could be sitting anywhere else in OKC.  If this were going in Midtown, or Classen Curve, or up on Memorial, i would love it*... but it is going to be on the canal, in Bricktown, our attempt to revitalize, what OKC used to be, and making a spectacular entertainment district.   I want something that stands out as an example, something we can point to and say that represents OKC, and where we want to go...  
> 
> think of it in this theme... Kevin Durant is a wonderful spokesman for OKC, so is the Thunder... it has shown the rest of the country that we are much more than they thought we were.  since the restaurant is named for him, why can't that development do the same thing?
> 
> and maybe what i would prefer of a multistory mixed used building isnt the right idea to get that accomplished... but neither is the development that they have come up with


THAT!! Couldn't have said it better. 

Not a bad design for OKC, but it is horrible for Downtown OKC!!.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Is it built yet? &


No, but it has been approved after 2-3 redesigns and awaiting construction. Also take into the fact that hell was raised with the original design it "improved" somewhat.

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## ljbab728

> I could not agree more!!!  OKC has the most mundane/ unimaginative looking architecture (aside from Devon Tower) of any major city (?) I have ever visited


So you're actually going to call OKC a major city?  Maybe you aren't as negative as you always seem.  LOL

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## dankrutka

> No, but it has been approved after 2-3 redesigns and awaiting construction. Also take into the fact that hell was raised with the original design it "improved" somewhat.


As others have pointed out, the first design lowered the expectations so low that people were happy with a slightly-less-terrible design. Good strategy by Hogan, but it's still a crappy development for that spot.

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## dcsooner

> So you're actually going to call OKC a major city?  Maybe you aren't as negative as you always seem.  LOL


Duh, the question mark means I question the major city moniker being applied to OKC

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## G.Walker

Went to Fuzzy's Tacos today for lunch (which was really good), noticed dirt work as begun on this project, with construction fence up, and earth mover on site.

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## OKCisOK4me

> Went to Fuzzy's Tacos today for lunch (which was really good), noticed dirt work as begun on this project, with construction fence up, and earth mover on site.


That's good to hear.

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## CCOKC

I was down there Sunday and noticed the same thing.  The fence has taken a few of the prime parking spots in the lot to the south of the space.  I can imagine there will be a few complaints about that.

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## Larry OKC

Construction Starts on Kevin Durant Restaurant | OKC Central

----------


## Pete

From Sid:

----------


## Praedura

Mention of this project on Savoy Network:

Kevin Durant announces plans to bring upscale Southern dining to Oklahoma City | Savoy Network



Is anything happening on this? Any dirt flying?

----------


## metro

pretty sure they started a week or two ago

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## shawnw

Yes, dirt is flying. Walked by last week. Didn't get a pick...

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## metro

> Yes, dirt is flying. Walked by last week. Didn't get a pick...


How about a shovel?

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## OKCisOK4me

> How about a shovel?


I would have asked for a backhoe...

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## skanaly

Today, by me

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## skanaly

Thats just my breakfast^^^ My bad, here it is lol

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## jedicurt

> Thats just my breakfast^^^ My bad, here it is lol


hopefully you got further along with your breakfast this morning than they are with this project!

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## kevinpate

your breakfast was far more impressive than their dirt waffle.

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## shawnw

From today, 4/7

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## bchris02

> THAT!! Couldn't have said it better. 
> 
> Not a bad design for OKC, but it is horrible for Downtown OKC!!.


It fits with the standard that has been set in Lower Bricktown however.  Lower Bricktown is suburban and has been since Bass Pro was allowed to plop in a standard big box right on the canal with surface parking up to the canal's edge.  More of this stuff is going to be built until ordinances are enacted to require denser, more inspiring architecture in Bricktown.  It's the same thing we are fighting with the Staybridge Suites.

The new KD restaurant isn't that bad looking though and is far from the worst looking construction on the Canal.

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## Urbanized

> ...More of this stuff is going to be built until ordinances are enacted to require denser, more inspiring architecture in Bricktown.  It's the same thing we are fighting with the Staybridge Suites...


This statement is not accurate. People seem to have the most difficult time understanding that Lower Bricktown (everything south of Reno) and Bricktown itself are separate entities with separate guidelines and oversight. Bricktown proper has very stringent guidelines regarding setback, use of materials and other issues. Those guidelines are what forced the Holiday Inn Express, for instance, to be built at zero setback and almost entirely of brick. Same for the two hotels going up along Sheridan. If the Staybridge Suites prevails with its suburban design, it will be in spite of the guidelines and likely thanks to a Board of Adjustment ruling.

LOWER Bricktown, OTOH, has no specific design oversight, other than the OCURA board, who awarded the land to the developer. It is effectively a shopping mall, and operates under its own rules in many ways.

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## Praedura

From the Lower Bricktown facebook page, pics showing recent progress:

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## Praedura

A couple more:

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## jn1780

Still not too late to toward it into a strip mall. They have until the project is 95% complete and the LED Kevin Durant sign is installed. lol

Ok, I have to give credit where it is due. It took a lot of work to add that overhang on the east side.

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## ourulz2000

The entire frame on this done yet?

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## Pete

Looks like the official name of this restaurant will be "KD's Southern Cuisine".

$1,000,000 building permit to finish the space in that name today.

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## jedicurt

> Looks like the official name of this restaurant will be "KD's Southern Cuisine".
> 
> $1,000,000 building permit to finish the space in that name today.


ugh... i was hoping for a back east type feel.  something from the Maryland, DC, Virginia area (who know, where he is from)... not just to slap his name on a restaurant in which the menu was designed completely separate and without him in mind at all.  i'm not exactly sure what the menu should look like... but it wouldn't be "Southern Cuisine"

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## BoulderSooner

> ugh... i was hoping for a back east type feel.  something from the Maryland, DC, Virginia area (who know, where he is from)... not just to slap his name on a restaurant in which the menu was designed completely separate and without him in mind at all.  i'm not exactly sure what the menu should look like... but it wouldn't be "Southern Cuisine"


the menu is based on things that kevin likes and eats

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## Rover

And on things that will be popular here.

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## HangryHippo

> ugh... i was hoping for a back east type feel.  something from the Maryland, DC, Virginia area (who know, where he is from)... not just to slap his name on a restaurant in which the menu was designed completely separate and without him in mind at all.  i'm not exactly sure what the menu should look like... but it wouldn't be "Southern Cuisine"


I think you're reading too much into the name.  There have been several articles that stated the menu will reflect Kevin's east coast favorites (obviously along with stuff that will sell well here).  And Maryland and Virginia are southern states.

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## Bellaboo

> I think you're reading too much into the name.  There have been several articles that stated the menu will reflect Kevin's east coast favorites (obviously along with stuff that will sell well here).  And Maryland and Virginia are southern states.


This is a direct quote from the article in post # 516 -

about the menu -

Guests will be able to choose from items such as chicken satay, popcorn lobster, honey-dipped fried chicken, center cut pork chops, blackened catfish stuffed with crab meat, slow-smoked barbecue ribs and other comfort foods.

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## adaniel

> I think you're reading too much into the name.  There have been several articles that stated the menu will reflect Kevin's east coast favorites (obviously along with stuff that will sell well here).  And Maryland and Virginia are southern states.


Was just about to type something similar. 

One can be forgiven for thinking that food found in and around DC is typical "east coast" food given the fact that Northern Virginia and suburban Maryland have more in common with New Jersey than the south. But trust me, the roots of that area are very much of the old south. Some of the best crab cakes and fried chicken I ever had was in St Charles County MD, which is just a bit south of where KD is from in Prince Georges County.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Kevin Durant's Restaurant To Open In Bricktown In October - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

----------


## Just the facts

> I think you're reading too much into the name.  There have been several articles that stated the menu will reflect Kevin's east coast favorites (obviously along with stuff that will sell well here).  And Maryland and Virginia are southern states.


You would be surprised how many people don't know the Mason-Dixon line is between Maryland and Pennsylvania.  Probably even less know the capitol of the Confederacy was in Virginia.

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## BoulderSooner

> You would be surprised how many people don't know the Mason-Dixon line is between Maryland and Pennsylvania.  Probably even less know the capitol of the Confederacy was in Virginia.


and before that it was in Montgomery ..    survey those in north and south carolina, georgia, alabma and mississippi .. is they think maryland is in any way the south

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## HangryHippo

> and before that it was in Montgomery ..    survey those in north and south carolina, georgia, alabma and mississippi .. is they think maryland is in any way the south


You annoy me to no end with your insatiable desire to be a contrarian and constant one line responses of drivel.  What in the hell are you talking about is Maryland the south?  I polled 17 different family members - 3 from Georgia, 2 from South Carolina, 3 from Alabama, and 9 from North Carolina - and every one of them considered Maryland to be a part of the south.

----------


## jedicurt

ok... yes. both Maryland and Virginia were south of the Mason-Dixon line and therefor "Southern" States (something geographically that i was aware of).  and so technically their food is "Southern" Cuisine.  But Maryland and Virginia see much more use of pork and crap as the chief sources of protein rather than shrimp, chicken, and beef that you see across the rest of the south.  you also see much more use of Sorgum and Honey as opposed to sugar or molasses as a sweetener.  So while they are "Southern" States with "Southern" cuisine, they are much different than even the Low Country Cuisine area of the Carolinas and Georgia, and share much more in common with the cuisine of the Delaware and the Appalachian areas of Pennsylvania and West Virginia (which i know was also south of the Mason-Dixon line), than it does with what is common thought of as "Southern" Cuisine.

----------


## Just the facts

Local sourcing of food died with the interstate highway.  National chains covered the casket with dirt.

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## jedicurt

> Local sourcing of food died with the interstate highway.  National chains covered the casket with dirt.


but it didn't kill the cuisine associated with it... people still make that food.   and that is the food i was hoping for

----------


## Stew

> Local sourcing of food died with the interstate highway.  National chains covered the casket with dirt.


That's truer than most people know or are willing to admit.

----------


## Pete

Moving right along...  From today:

----------


## Urbanized

That photo was taken more or less from the vantage point from where folks were concerned that the roof and mechanicals might be visible.

----------


## catch22

I walked next to it the other day from that same vantage point and it appeared to be the same height as the Earl's Rib Palace building. I guess they will use a tall ceiling like Toby Keith's.

----------


## soonerguru

> I walked next to it the other day from that same vantage point and it appeared to be the same height as the Earl's Rib Palace building. I guess they will use a tall ceiling like Toby Keith's.


Ceilings have to be high to allow KD clearance in his own joint.

----------


## CaptDave

> Ceilings have to be high to allow KD clearance in his own joint.


LMAO! Great point.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

KD's (June 17 2013) - a set on Flickr

----------


## UnFrSaKn



----------


## UnFrSaKn

http://youtu.be/smAIFsL2RSo

----------


## HOT ROD

thanks for the pics, it looks somewhat better situated than I thought and actually appears to give a bit of 'urban' density to that section of the canal. I wonder if other buildings could rethink their back ends and extend a bit to open up canal side patio seating? That would really set LBT in motion IMO without razing all of Hogan's development.

One question about this thread, shouldn't it now say "Under Construction" instead of "proposed"?

----------


## Praedura

Great shots Will.

I especially like the canal panorama. But it seems as though that view towards downtown would be even more interesting if a certain (ahem) additional item was on the skyline....

So, I took that section of the photo and added in a new tower:



 Yes, I know the design is rather lame. There's a limit to what I can do with my mad graphics editing skillz (slapping rectangles together, basically).

----------


## UnFrSaKn



----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Yes, I know the design is rather lame. There's a limit to what I can do with my mad graphics editing skillz (slapping rectangles together, basically).


...and as that building will be further back, your rendering indicates it's actually 975 feet tall.  Sorry PluPan, no supertall for you!

----------


## kevinpate

Not a big fan of the little triangle peaks on the canal side. Makes it look like the builder just hurled up a mini strip mall between the B&G and Earl's.

----------


## Praedura

> ...and as that building will be further back, your rendering indicates it's actually 975 feet tall.  Sorry PluPan, no supertall for you!


Yeah, it's too tall. That's one of several problems with it -- the biggest being that it's a bit lame looking and not very realistic. But hey, I gave it a shot!

Anyway, just squint when you look at it, use your (vivid) imagination, and consider that future date when there really will be something there.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Yeah, it's too tall. That's one of several problems with it -- the biggest being that it's a bit lame looking and not very realistic. But hey, I gave it a shot!
> 
> Anyway, just squint when you look at it, use your (vivid) imagination, and consider that future date when there really will be something there.


I was just jiving with ya...I once did a rendering on Microsoft Paint for my vision of downtown with a new skyscraper (pre-Devon days).  Trust me, my work was that of a preschooler.  Yours is waaaaaay better ;-)

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> ...and as that building will be further back, your rendering indicates it's actually 975 feet tall.  *Sorry PluPan, no supertall for you!*


 :Frown:

----------


## Praedura

More construction shots -- these are from Sunday (June 23):


















Source: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...3569654&type=1

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## HangryHippo

Randy Hogan should be barred from further downtown development.  His designs suck.

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## jedicurt

> Randy Hogan should be barred from further downtown development.  His designs suck.


I will not say that his designs suck... i will say that he should be barred from further downtown development as his designes are more suited for a non-urban environment.  If this were being build on Meridian, or Memorial, or Ed Nobel Parkway, i'd have no problems with it.   It's just not what Bricktown needs

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## HangryHippo

> I will not say that his designs suck... i will say that he should be barred from further downtown development as his designes are more suited for a non-urban environment.  If this were being build on Meridian, or Memorial, or Ed Nobel Parkway, i'd have no problems with it.   It's just not what Bricktown needs


I do think his designs suck.  But you have point in that they would fare much better in a non-urban environment.  But the disappointment is certainly magnified because of where they've been built.

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## UnFrSaKn

KD's (July 5 2013) - a set on Flickr

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## ljbab728

A slight delay in the opening according to Steve.

Weather sets back opening for KD's in Bricktown | News OK

And no, I didn't have lunch with him to already know that a story about this would be coming.  LOL

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## UnFrSaKn



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## UnFrSaKn



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## Pete

Thanks, Will!

They are moving right along.

I actually like the brick they are using...  And look forward to seeing lots of people out on the patio along the canal.

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## Urbanized

Yeah, the masonry work is comparatively intricate and ornate. It's nice, especially close-up.

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## Plutonic Panda

Just curious(sorry if I sound stupid), if Hogan owns Lower Bricktown, do people still pay a sales tax and if so, I'm assuming it does go to the city.

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## Bill Robertson

> Thanks, Will!
> 
> They are moving right along.
> 
> I actually like the brick they are using...  And look forward to seeing lots of people out on the patio along the canal.


I'm looking forward to seeing how much the patio is patronized. Toby Keith's reason for enclosing their patio was that it wasn't used. Always too hot, too cold, too windy. I hope KD's patio works and proves TK's wrong. I liked TK's patio.

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## Bill Robertson

> I will not say that his designs suck... i will say that he should be barred from further downtown development as his designes are more suited for a non-urban environment.  If this were being build on Meridian, or Memorial, or Ed Nobel Parkway, i'd have no problems with it.   It's just not what Bricktown needs


I'm really not trying to cause a urban-suburban debate. But could it be that Bricktown designs tend toward the suburban because most of the patrons commute to Bricktown from suburbia?

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## dankrutka

> I'm really not trying to cause a urban-suburban debate. But could it be that Bricktown designs tend toward the suburban because most of the patrons commute to Bricktown from suburbia?


I'd say it's more that suburban developers start projects there. Suburban people love, at least visiting, vibrant urban areas. For example, who doesn't want to visit to NYC? If Lower Bricktown was developed according to urban principles I don't think a family from Edmond heading downtown for a Thunder game is going to say, "No. That area is too urban. Lets find somewhere to eat that looks more like our subdivision." I don't think most people even define the urban/suburban concepts consciously. People will frequent the options you give them based on a number of factors. Lower Bricktown provides some decent options with easy nearby parking, but if you put these options in an urban setting with a parking garage I think even more people would be there because the area would attract more by other modes of transportation.

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## ljbab728

> Just curious(sorry if I sound stupid), if Hogan owns Lower Bricktown, do people still pay a sales tax and if so, I'm assuming it does go to the city.


Plupan, who owns a building or the land it's on has nothing to do with paying sales tax.  It's based on what sales tax district the business is in.  If there are multiple sales taxes, such as city, county, or state it is split between them based on the amount of the tax.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Plupan, who owns a building or the land it's on has nothing to do with paying sales tax.  It's based on what sales tax district the business is in.  If there are multiple sales taxes, such as city, county, or state it is split between them based on the amount of the tax.


Ah, well the reason I ask is that it was said the police didn't police patrol the area and that the Sheriffs department was contracted during big events, so that got me wondering.

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## zorobabel

Excluding the overhang, it's a very strip mall-y design. Not quite how I imagined this area developing.

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## ourulz2000

When its finished and it's night, the building is lit up and people are on the canal it won't be half bad. Just looks small and lame from the backside during the day.

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## catch22

Thru poor planning the back of Tobys is on the canal and the front of KD's is on the canal. And opposite for the parking lot side. Identity crisis? 

Lower bricktown is a joke.

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## HangryHippo

> Thru poor planning the back of Tobys is on the canal and the front of KD's is on the canal. And opposite for the parking lot side. Identity crisis? 
> 
> Lower bricktown is a joke.


It absolutely is.  What I wouldn't give for that area to be able to start over.

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## Snowman

> I'm really not trying to cause a urban-suburban debate. But could it be that Bricktown designs tend toward the suburban because most of the patrons commute to Bricktown from suburbia?


Probably a mix of they did not make any real enforcement mechanism for making him do what was originally promised, along with helping get him the land for far under market value so additional streams of revenue like residential or office space above the first flow was not pursued

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## Rover

I think we are finding that the canal by itself is not a big economic generator.  It has been a great rallying point and an interesting feature, but not a magnet.  The real development has been further north and in Midtown. It is the proximity to opportunity that will draw attention and value.  Higher priced real estate follows that opportunity, it doesn't create it.  Adding to the cost of development on the canal wouldn't automatically make someone build an apartment building on it.  Having more canal traffic would.

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## ourulz2000

> I think we are finding that the canal by itself is not a big economic generator.


Give it time. The River Walk in San Antonio got rolling in the 80s. OKC needs another 10 years to develop business, population around it. Need more people in the area.

SA is the 7th most populous city in America, so they have plenty of foot traffic on top of being #1 destination in Texas.

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## Pete

Moving right along:

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## architect5311

> Moving right along:


What a shame...such a weak design.

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## Anonymous.

Yea, it just looks so underwhelming. 

If I didn't know it was going to be a restaraunt I would think it was a little shopping strip with a yoga class and a hair salon.

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## HangryHippo

> What a shame...such a weak design.


Yep.  Another disappointment courtesy of Randy Hogan.

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## Dustin

The food better be good!  Thats all I gotta say!

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## soonerguru

It's kinda sad that the second hottest brand name in the NBA was steered toward doing such a maudlin concept. I'm sure Lebron's restaurant would be pretty rad.

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## ljbab728

I"m not defending the design but just remember what the original proposal looked like.

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## OKCisOK4me

> What a shame...such a weak design.


The sign looks better than the real thing, but remember, everything in OKC looks better at night.  This place will probably look pretty smooth when it's all lit up with lighting...

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## jccouger

I actually like it.

The brick tone is a lot darker and more red as apposed to tannish as renderings had me believe. We are getting a view from the parking lot, not the canal, which will have the front signage. As somebody else has already pointed out it will be lit up at nighttime, and like it or not bricktown and the canal is more of a night time district. It could have been taller, but hey its a restaurant. You don't really see too many 2 story dining options.

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## Bellaboo

I walked by it last Saturday night from the canal side and it didn't look bad at all. Actually better than everything else except maybe the Sonic HQ building.

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## Bill Robertson

Put me down for another "I like it" vote.

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## BDP

> I think we are finding that the canal by itself is not a big economic generator.


True, but I think that is because it was ignored from the beginning. A large part of it basically surrounded by surface parking and attractions found everywhere else. So, naturally, it's hard to get anyone excited about that.

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## bchris02

> True, but I think that is because it was ignored from the beginning. A large part of it basically surrounded by surface parking and attractions found everywhere else. So, naturally, it's hard to get anyone excited about that.


Agreed.  Lower Bricktown is pretty much like Memorial Rd South.  It's literally sickening when you look at the images of what Lower Bricktown was supposed to be compared to what was actually developed.  It is expected that projects will be scaled down from original renderings but it should be expected that the final product come out at least somewhat resembling what was proposed.  Incredible wasted opportunity.  I wasn't living in OKC when most of it was developed, but was there anybody who tried to stand up and demand something better for Bricktown than fast food restaurants and surface parking?  Who thought it was a good idea to build N Penn and 122nd as downtown and the city's cornerstone attraction?  Who thought that a Sonic and an IHOP and an Earl's, all with no interaction with the canal, would be the best way to showcase the city? It really is no wonder people in Tulsa scoff at Bricktown and say it is inferior to their districts - because it is.

In Lower Bricktown's defense however, it has been a hit with tourists, especially people from rural Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Kansas.  They like the chain fast food establishments and surface parking.  Having family that fits that demographic, Lower Bricktown is perfect for them.  It offers a 'big city' experience for people who don't like big cities.   Lower Bricktown's target demographic likely doesn't see anything wrong with the development or any need to change it.

Lower Bricktown's failure has also opened up the market for what we are seeing now with the gentrification of districts like Midtown, Auto Alley, and Uptown.  I am sure if Bricktown was done right it would be the center of OKC's urban development which would mean the city would be on a much different path.  I hope Lower Bricktown as well as other colossal failures like Belle Isle are learned lessons to this city regarding wasted investment and acceptance of mediocrity.  It appears things are at least improving.  At one time, the original proposal for this KD restaurant with no canal interaction and nothing unique about the building would have passed.  Now, that plan was rejected and they were forced to step it up a notch.

Lastly, I think this KD restaurant will probably be the best thing on the canal east of the Harkins Theatre.  The rest of it's pretty much wasted space.

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## PhiAlpha

I agree with a lot of what your criticisms on lower bricktown but As far as Tulsa scoffing at Bricktown, let them. Tulsa doesn't and won't ever have anything like Bricktown. Brady and the blue dome are nice, but they are just like brookside and cherry street on steroids located downtown. At least OKC will have some variety with a touristy club scene area, and several more local, trendy type bar districts. Bricktown also has the canal which eventually will not not be as ignored as it is now and the land run monument, which is pretty cool if you haven't seen it. The Bricktown canal water taxis are often full when I've been down there and more patios are finally starting to develop on the canal. The canal also now has a pedestrian connection to the river...which despite Tulsa having every natural advantage in this department, will likely not ever have anything up to the level of our boathouse/river districts. As far as fast food restaurants...it's right next to the sonic HQ, what do you expect? I wish the buildings they are in interacted with the canal but I think it's fine to have Sonic down there. Earls is not really a fast food restaurant and other than texadelphia, neither are any of the other restaurants down there or in the main part of Bricktown in general. Also, IHOP is not fast food, on the canal, or in lower Bricktown. Having cheaper chain options in addition to nice restaurants adds some variety for people that frequent the area.

Finally, while I agree that lower Bricktown is a failure in design, it has definitely not been a collosal failure as far as usage goes and definitely can't be lumped in with belle isle or memorial in terms of quality. It's always packed and restaurants like fuzzies, bolero, in the raw, and red pin have been a big draw. Also its at least somewhat visually appealing and somewhat urban in design which cannot be said of belle isle or memorial. Again could it be a lot better, absolutely, but just like several other "this is terrible in okc because:" rants you've posted here and on other forums, it greatly exaggerates the problem. I'll add that I'm a major critic of lower Bricktown, so much so that my girlfriend gets annoyed at me for talking about it everytime I'm down there, but it is far from as bad as you're describing it.

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## Rover

There is always a big crowd around the theaters and the area in front.  It isn't a total failure except the theater itself is not very appealing. If the idea is to get people to the area and to frequent the businesses, it seems to be doing okay at the theater and TKs, Earls, Fuzzy's, Bolero, Starbucks, etc.  The hotel always seems full and at a pretty high room rate.  Now, we can agree, the area does not LOOK like downtown Chicago and doesn't fit the urbanist design template.  But, it seems to have lots of foot traffic around.

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## bchris02

> There is always a big crowd around the theaters and the area in front.  It isn't a total failure except the theater itself is not very appealing. If the idea is to get people to the area and to frequent the businesses, it seems to be doing okay at the theater and TKs, Earls, Fuzzy's, Bolero, Starbucks, etc.  The hotel always seems full and at a pretty high room rate.  Now, we can agree, the area does not LOOK like downtown Chicago and doesn't fit the urbanist design template.  But, it seems to have lots of foot traffic around.


Pretty much everything there can be done on Memorial Rd. Nobody is asking for downtown Chicago but given the investment that was the Canal, its justified to have expected better than an Earl's, Sonic, and surface parking, especially given what was originally proposed. What's the purpose of the canal if everything is built like a strip mall primarily around the surface parking? Lower Bricktown is an embarassment and probably one of the biggest wastes of potential I have ever seen. Why not just build a Wal-Mart Supercenter with a canal-side Tire & Lube Center?

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## Rover

Why not be angry at what HASN'T happened along the main upper part of the canal?  Go throw a fit at all of the undeveloped canal side property in the main area where it should be.  I think that the lower part can still be salvaged, but it needs to start in the upper part.  

And if it is the biggest waste of potential you've seen, you are either being hysterical or haven't been anywhere else.  If you think that the canal in San Antonio started off with great development along it all the way then you aren't old enough to know.  Sometimes things evolve.

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## bchris02

> Why not be angry at what HASN'T happened along the main upper part of the canal?  Go throw a fit at all of the undeveloped canal side property in the main area where it should be.  I think that the lower part can still be salvaged, but it needs to start in the upper part.  
> 
> And if it is the biggest waste of potential you've seen, you are either being hysterical or haven't been anywhere else.  If you think that the canal in San Antonio started off with great development along it all the way then you aren't old enough to know.  Sometimes things evolve.


Hopefully the huge empty lot eventually gets developed into something of the same quality as the JDM Place, maybe even with mid-rise residential above it?  That would be awesome and a game changer for Bricktown.

As for the lower part, it can be fixed but somebody other than Randy Hogan needs to be put in charge.  People say he is a good guy, but his development has underdelivered compared to what was proposed to such an extent that he should have been "fired" years ago.  All of the canal-side surface parking needs to go and be replaced with mixed use developments.  Maybe build a couple of garages on each side of the Harkins to satisfy the parking needs.

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## bchris02

> I agree with a lot of what your criticisms on lower bricktown but As far as Tulsa scoffing at Bricktown, let them. Tulsa doesn't and won't ever have anything like Bricktown. Brady and the blue dome are nice, but they are just like brookside and cherry street on steroids located downtown. At least OKC will have some variety with a touristy club scene area, and several more local, trendy type bar districts. Bricktown also has the canal which eventually will not not be as ignored as it is now and the land run monument, which is pretty cool if you haven't seen it. The Bricktown canal water taxis are often full when I've been down there and more patios are finally starting to develop on the canal. The canal also now has a pedestrian connection to the river...which despite Tulsa having every natural advantage in this department, will likely not ever have anything up to the level of our boathouse/river districts. As far as fast food restaurants...it's right next to the sonic HQ, what do you expect? I wish the buildings they are in interacted with the canal but I think it's fine to have Sonic down there. Earls is not really a fast food restaurant and other than texadelphia, neither are any of the other restaurants down there or in the main part of Bricktown in general. Also, IHOP is not fast food, on the canal, or in lower Bricktown. Having cheaper chain options in addition to nice restaurants adds some variety for people that frequent the area.
> 
> Finally, while I agree that lower Bricktown is a failure in design, it has definitely not been a collosal failure as far as usage goes and definitely can't be lumped in with belle isle or memorial in terms of quality. It's always packed and restaurants like fuzzies, bolero, in the raw, and red pin have been a big draw. Also its at least somewhat visually appealing and somewhat urban in design which cannot be said of belle isle or memorial. Again could it be a lot better, absolutely, but just like several other "this is terrible in okc because:" rants you've posted here and on other forums, it greatly exaggerates the problem. I'll add that I'm a major critic of lower Bricktown, so much so that my girlfriend gets annoyed at me for talking about it everytime I'm down there, but it is far from as bad as you're describing it.


Good points.  I definitely hope to see more canal interaction in the future.  I am excited that the new KD restaurant, despite being only one story, will have canal interaction and will also be unique.  Earl's might as well be City Bites.  I agree that the chain options are successful, especially for rural tourists, and am also excited that OKC has other districts starting to come into their own that will be the urban entertainment and living district everyone hoped Bricktown would be.  Just because they are successful though doesn't make it acceptable design.  However, from a rural perspective who don't look at the same things that urbanists do, Lower Bricktown works.  

Not all of Lower Bricktown is bad.  The building that houses RedPin, In the Raw, Bolero, etc is pretty nice in my opinion and I actually like the Harkins Theatre (though sometimes I wish the Warren were in its place in downtown OKC rather than in Moore).  Pretty much everything east of there - Earl's, Cold Stone, Toby Keith's, Bass Pro, and all of the surface parking is hideous.  There should be NO visible surface parking from the canal.  Lower Bricktown could be fixed, despite all the bad development, by simply developing the surface parking and developing it right.  There is so much surface parking that developing it into mixed use development would completely change the face of Lower Bricktown.

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## RodH

> Good points.  I definitely hope to see more canal interaction in the future.  I am excited that the new KD restaurant, despite being only one story, will have canal interaction and will also be unique.  Earl's might as well be City Bites.  I agree that the chain options are successful, especially for rural tourists, and am also excited that OKC has other districts starting to come into their own that will be the urban entertainment and living district everyone hoped Bricktown would be.  Just because they are successful though doesn't make it acceptable design.  However, from a rural perspective who don't look at the same things that urbanists do, Lower Bricktown works.  
> 
> Not all of Lower Bricktown is bad.  The building that houses RedPin, In the Raw, Bolero, etc is pretty nice in my opinion and I actually like the Harkins Theatre (though sometimes I wish the Warren were in its place in downtown OKC rather than in Moore).  Pretty much everything east of there - Earl's, Cold Stone, Toby Keith's, Bass Pro, and all of the surface parking is hideous.  There should be NO visible surface parking from the canal.  Lower Bricktown could be fixed, despite all the bad development, by simply developing the surface parking and developing it right.  There is so much surface parking that developing it into mixed use development would completely change the face of Lower Bricktown.


Perhaps if you contact Hogan with your proposal and financial commitment he would be willing to work with you on the changes that you feel need to be made.  Or maybe, make an offer and buy the whole thing outright.  That way you could show all of us backwoods Okies how to really do urban development right.  Good luck on your endeavor.  Be careful not to make it too intensely urban because that might drive away all of us rural folks who don't understand big city living.

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## PhiAlpha

> Good points.  I definitely hope to see more canal interaction in the future.  I am excited that the new KD restaurant, despite being only one story, will have canal interaction and will also be unique.  Earl's might as well be City Bites. * I agree that the chain options are successful, especially for rural tourists,* and am also excited that OKC has other districts starting to come into their own that will be the urban entertainment and living district everyone hoped Bricktown would be.  *Just because they are successful though doesn't make it acceptable design.*  However, from a rural perspective who don't look at the same things that urbanists do, Lower Bricktown works.  
> 
> Not all of Lower Bricktown is bad.  The building that houses RedPin, In the Raw, Bolero, etc is pretty nice in my opinion and I actually like the Harkins Theatre (though sometimes I wish the Warren were in its place in downtown OKC rather than in Moore).  Pretty much everything east of there - Earl's, Cold Stone, Toby Keith's,* Bass Pro,* and all of the surface parking is hideous.  There should be NO visible surface parking from the canal.  Lower Bricktown could be fixed, despite all the bad development, by simply developing the surface parking and developing it right.  There is so much surface parking that developing it into mixed use development would completely change the face of Lower Bricktown.


On chain restaurants working for rural people... how about people that live near in or near bricktown? I enjoy being able to walk down to the canal and not pay $15 for a meal every once and awhile. As long as the majority of restaurants are not fast or non-sitdown restaurant chains, I'm more than ok with a few of them down there. There are McDonalds', Chilies, Good Times, Chipotle and Subway franchises along the 16th St mall and in parts of LoDo in Denver, which are their main entertainment areas, and that is not detracting from either of those districts. If we are truly turning Bricktown into a mixed use district that will include residential, we need to be a variety of restaurant options, not just high end or local restaurants.

On design being a failure, that is exactly what I said. You originally said "Lower Bricktown has been a colossal failure" which would imply a lot more than just poor design. You also compared Lower Bricktown to both Memorial Rd. and Belle Isle Station which is a laughable exaggeration. Again, yes it could be better, but it is not near as suburban or poorly designed as those areas. Honestly I would have been ok with the style in general had they added retail space at the canal level. Lack of canal interaction is the only real complaint I have and the lack of it in that area/all over BT is ridiculous. I also would've prefered that Harkin be built as a Warren Theater, but it was built about 5-10 years prior Warran even coming to OK. There is still time for it to improve, especially with the boulevard going behind it. 

On the Bass Pro being poorly designed, I don't think the design of the building itself is bad. It just looks like a Bass Pro. However, the large parking lot does suck and the buildings position in that lot is what makes it the design terrible. If it fronted Reno, the canal or the future boulevard, I would like it much better. This is another establishment that completely ignored the canal as well. They could've made the canal/rivertaxies run through it, in front of it or something cool like that...basically any way other than how they decided to interact with it. It should be interesting to see how that lot will develop after the boulevard goes in, it will be a sea of parking between two 4 lane roads. I don't think it will go undeveloped long after the boulevard is built, the real estate will eventually be too valuable. At that point something cool could happen and integrate the Bass Pro into it. The back of the parking lot, on the portion that will front the boulevard, would be another of my dream locations for an REI. It could probably find a cool way to interact with the canal, the river extension, and the new boulevard.

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## bchris02

> On chain restaurants working for rural people... how about people that live near in or near bricktown? I enjoy being able to walk down to the canal and not pay $15 for a meal every once and awhile. As long as the majority of restaurants are not fast or non-sitdown restaurant chains, I'm more than ok with a few of them down there. There are McDonalds', Chilies, Good Times, Chipotle and Subway franchises along the 16th St mall and in parts of LoDo in Denver, which are their main entertainment areas, and that is not detracting from either of those districts. If we are truly turning Bricktown into a mixed use district that will include residential, we need to be a variety of restaurant options, not just high end or local restaurants.
> 
> On design being a failure, that is exactly what I said. You originally said "Lower Bricktown has been a colossal failure" which would imply a lot more than just poor design. You also compared Lower Bricktown to both Memorial Rd. and Belle Isle Station which is a laughable exaggeration. Again, yes it could be better, but it is not near as suburban or poorly designed as those areas. Honestly I would have been ok with the style in general had they added retail space at the canal level. Lack of canal interaction is the only real complaint I have and the lack of it in that area/all over BT is ridiculous. I also would've prefered that Harkin be built as a Warren Theater, but it was built about 5-10 years prior Warran even coming to OK. There is still time for it to improve, especially with the boulevard going behind it. 
> 
> On the Bass Pro being poorly designed, I don't think the design of the building itself is bad. It just looks like a Bass Pro. However, the large parking lot does suck and the buildings position in that lot is what makes it the design terrible. If it fronted Reno, the canal or the future boulevard, I would like it much better. This is another establishment that completely ignored the canal as well. They could've made the canal/rivertaxies run through it, in front of it or something cool like that...basically any way other than how they decided to interact with it. It should be interesting to see how that lot will develop after the boulevard goes in, it will be a sea of parking between two 4 lane roads. I don't think it will go undeveloped long after the boulevard is built, the real estate will eventually be too valuable. At that point something cool could happen and integrate the Bass Pro into it. The back of the parking lot, on the portion that will front the boulevard, would be another of my dream locations for an REI. It could probably find a cool way to interact with the canal, the river extension, and the new boulevard.


I can see where you are coming from on the chain restaurants.  If there was better canal interaction it wouldn't be near as bad.  Chains also definitely have their place for quick meals during events or for tourists.  Many tourists will always go to chains over local options because they know what they are getting.  I have been very hard on Lower Bricktown for being mostly chains but it definitely serves its purpose and has been an economic success.  I also agree with you about Bass Pro.  Personally I think it's better suited for between Moore and Norman, but if it must be in Bricktown, it would have been better flipped, with the structure on the canal and the parking behind it.  Building the parking up to the canal as if it's a suburban street wasn't a good idea. 

It will be interesting to see what happens when the Boulevard goes in.   I have a hard time believing all of that surface parking will remain.

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## PhiAlpha

> I can see where you are coming from on the chain restaurants.  If there was better canal interaction it wouldn't be near as bad.  Chains also definitely have their place for quick meals during events or for tourists.  Many tourists will always go to chains over local options because they know what they are getting.  I have been very hard on Lower Bricktown for being mostly chains but it definitely serves its purpose and has been an economic success.  I also agree with you about Bass Pro.  Personally I think it's better suited for between Moore and Norman, but if it must be in Bricktown, it would have been better flipped, with the structure on the canal and the parking behind it.  Building the parking up to the canal as if it's a suburban street wasn't a good idea. 
> 
> It will be interesting to see what happens when the Boulevard goes in.   I have a hard time believing all of that surface parking will remain.


Eh, Bass Pro brings a lot of people to Bricktown that may not otherwise go there and vice versa. So I don't mind it being there. 

The parking will certainly be somewhat of an eyesore it does remain. I mixed use garage of some sort on Reno and some other type of development fronting the boulevard. I would say that anything would be better than the Parking lot, but...

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## UnFrSaKn

KD's (September 16 2013) - a set on Flickr

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## Pete

Thanks Will!

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## catch22

Memorial Canal is looking, Memorialy.

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## Teo9969

> Memorial Canal is looking, Memorialy.


Ha!

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## bchris02

> Memorial Canal is looking, Memorialy.


What's sad is this is actually a big improvement over the prior standard for lower Bricktown (which shows how low the standard really was/is).

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## Plutonic Panda

I think it will be fine. It looks good and I really love the landscaping in the canal.

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## MikeLucky

> Memorial Canal is looking, Memorialy.


lol... I just don't understand the consternation about this.... I mean it is BRICKTOWN.  And this building looks like it definitely belongs in BRICKtown.

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## Teo9969

Not too worried about Lower Bricktown...it's really not as bad as the board makes it out to be (save for the UHaul, which is horrendous). By no means is it my favorite, but OKC is so far away from being an Urban mecca with so much land that we can develop correctly, that this really isn't worth any time or energy save for not allowing something that is totally unacceptable.

Let Lower Bricktown make its mistakes and if it can't compete in 25 years, it will be redeveloped.

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## Urbanized

The U-Haul building is the best building in all of Bricktown. And I'm being dead serious. It is just covered up with a bunch of tin siding. Which in itself might actually be a blessing in disguise. It will have its day.

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## Urbanized

This is all still there, and intact:

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## MikeLucky

Yeah, we need to get that beyotch naked... seriously....

(cue barry white music and the tequila shots)

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## Teo9969

> The U-Haul building is the best building in all of Bricktown. And I'm being dead serious. It is just covered up with a bunch of tin siding. Which in itself might actually be a blessing in disguise. It will have its day.


Right, even in its current state I was referring less to the building itself and more to the usage.

----------


## kevinpate

> Yeah, we need to get that beyotch naked... seriously....
> 
> (cue barry white music and the tequila shots)



funniest post of the day.

----------


## bchris02

> This is all still there, and intact:


Looks perfect for residential.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I never knew! That's an awesome building.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

KD's September 16 2013) - YouTube

----------


## David

Has an opening date been announced yet?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

On their Facebook it says they are now hiring for all positions.

----------


## Urbanized

I saw work being done on the canal-side deck patio the other day when I walked by, and I must say it looks more spacious than I was expecting. Hopefully customer demand helps reinforce their decision to build it, and even encourages them to expand the outside presence.

----------


## Pete

> I saw work being done on the canal-side deck patio the other day when I walked by, and I must say it looks more spacious than I was expecting. Hopefully customer demand helps reinforce their decision to build it, and even encourages them to expand the outside presence.


This is from the Downtown OKC Builds Twitter feed...  And you are right, the deck does look bigger than I would have expected:

----------


## Bellaboo

Anyone know when this opens ?

----------


## Pete

As Will posted above, they are hiring.

When they broke ground a year ago, the opening date was announced as October 2013.

----------


## Patrick

What kind of food are they going to have?  I heard it was going to be soul food.  Wasn't too sure about this.

----------


## PWitty

> What kind of food are they going to have?  I heard it was going to be soul food.  Wasn't too sure about this.


Could have changed a bit, but last I heard it was supposed to be based around KD's favorite southern dishes

----------


## Pete

Here are a couple of site plans -- first one shows the deck configuration:

----------


## Patrick

Does Hogan plan to develop any of the surface parking lots?  Or is KD's the last official project for Lower Bricktown?

----------


## GoThunder

Bricktown tweeted this, signage going up.

----------


## Pete

> Does Hogan plan to develop any of the surface parking lots?  Or is KD's the last official project for Lower Bricktown?


Nope, no plans to change any of the surface lots.

Only one more lot for development, down near the land run monument:

----------


## adaniel

> Could have changed a bit, but last I heard it was supposed to be based around KD's favorite southern dishes


More specifically, Chesapeake Bay cuisine: crab cakes, oysters, fried chicken. And the typical soul food fare (greens, mac & cheese casserole, yams). Can't wait!

----------


## warreng88

> Does Hogan plan to develop any of the surface parking lots?  Or is KD's the last official project for Lower Bricktown?


I would think they would need to wait until the placement of the Boulevard is done before deciding to build anything facing it. It they decide to go with six lanes with sidewalks on either side, they might need a different amount of room than if it was going four lanes with bike lanes, sidewalks and a median.

----------


## dankrutka

> More specifically, Chesapeake Bay cuisine: crab cakes, oysters, fried chicken. And the typical soul food fare (greens, mac & cheese casserole, yams). Can't wait!


*mouth watering*

----------


## soonerguru

> More specifically, Chesapeake Bay cuisine: crab cakes, oysters, fried chicken. And the typical soul food fare (greens, mac & cheese casserole, yams). Can't wait!


YUM!!!! Hoping like hell the crab cakes are legit!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> This is from the Downtown OKC Builds Twitter feed...  And you are right, the deck does look bigger than I would have expected:


Hate to be "that guy" to bring this up and it really isn't that big of an issue, but I would think they could at least use composite instead of lumber. It looks better and it last waaaaaaay longer.

----------


## Pete

^

Looks like the deck itself is composite and the framing is lumber.

You wouldn't use composite for the framing anyway.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Oh, my mistake. I didn't know if it was just stained wood or not.

----------


## Pete

Just checked their building plans and it specifies "synthetic wood plank decking".

----------


## ljbab728

I love the way they have incorporated the existing trees in that deck.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

That deck is not that big at all...

----------


## ljbab728

> That deck is not that big at all...


You could fit probably at least a dozen tables there so that's not bad.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> You could fit probably at least a dozen tables there so that's not bad.


More like half a dozen... maybe 5.  Unless you want to back out of your seat and shove a fork down a person's throat behind you...

Look at the two guys standing there.  That's less than one table space...  I'm a good judge of space.  I'll eat crow on the patio if I'm wrong, lol.

----------


## ljbab728

> More like half a dozen... maybe 5.  Unless you want to back out of your seat and shove a fork down a person's throat behind you...
> 
> Look at the two guys standing there.  That's less than one table space...  I'm a good judge of space.  I'll eat crow on the patio if I'm wrong, lol.


That looks very comparable to the size of the patio I've been to a number of times at the Louie's in Midtown.  It certainly has more than six tables.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> That looks very comparable to the size of the patio I've been to a number of times at the Louie's in Midtown.  It certainly has more than six tables.


Who am I talking to?  All I see is a profile silhouette picture and an 'online' green dot above 'gold member'.  (nevermind, it shows up after I post...)

Regardless...I still don't think it's that big of a patio...

----------


## Anonymous.

I agree that the patio is weak.

For a restaraunt along the CANAL, and there NOT be an emphasis on outdoor dining, is just further solidifying the joke that is Lower BT.

----------


## metro

> I agree that the patio is weak.
> 
> For a restaraunt along the CANAL, and there NOT be an emphasis on outdoor dining, is just further solidifying the joke that is Lower BT.


What else would we expect from this group? Lame.

----------


## betts

At least there is a patio.  IIRC, there was no patio on the original plans.

----------


## onthestrip

> I agree that the patio is weak.
> 
> For a restaraunt along the CANAL, and there NOT be an emphasis on outdoor dining, is just further solidifying the joke that is Lower BT.


Well at least the left the trees for some natural shading in the warmer months. Many restaurants simply place a table on an open concrete slab and then wonder why no one wants to eat there with a hot sun beating on their back.

----------


## betts

> Well at least the left the trees for some natural shading in the warmer months. Many restaurants simply place a table on an open concrete slab and then wonder why no one wants to eat there with a hot sun beating on their back.


We need to get an ordinance passed like they have in Chicago.  All outdoor eating areas are required to have flower boxes, shrubs or a combination of the two.  Some of the downtown outdoor patios are stunning. It's not necessarily size, but rather, how appealing the patio is, IMO.

----------


## Urbanized

OKC has a lot to learn about outdoor drinking/dining and rooftops, etc., though admittedly there has been lots of improvement of late. Ten years ago about your only decent outdoor dining options in the metro were the Mont in Norman and the original Pearls on NW 63rd (RIP).

----------


## bchris02

> Nope, no plans to change any of the surface lots.
> 
> Only one more lot for development, down near the land run monument:


Is there a chance another developer could purchase the surface lots from Hogan and develop them? Lower Bricktown can still be saved if that were to happen. There is almost as much canal-side surface parking as there is development in lower Bricktown. Why does Hogan insist on canal-side surface parking anyways? Surely he must realize from the development this city is seeing in other districts that the bare minimum is no longer acceptable development standards.

----------


## LakeEffect

> Is there a chance another developer could purchase the surface lots from Hogan and develop them? Lower Bricktown can still be saved if that were to happen. There is almost as much canal-side surface parking as there is development in lower Bricktown. Why does Hogan insist on canal-side surface parking anyways? Surely he must realize from the development this city is seeing in other districts that the bare minimum is no longer acceptable development standards.


Possibly. However, Randy tied much of the development up with the lots - Harkins and others are guaranteed a certain number of spots per their leases (if I understand correct). Therefore, if Randy sells off a lot for development, he'd have to have a garage somewhere on site to make up for the change in parking.

----------


## Teo9969

> Possibly. However, Randy tied much of the development up with the lots - Harkins and others are guaranteed a certain number of spots per their leases (if I understand correct). Therefore, if Randy sells off a lot for development, *he'd have to have a garage somewhere* on site to make up for the change in parking.


OH THE HORROR!!!!! And Double the HORROR if he were to make it a mixed-use garage!!!!

----------


## Pete

Actually, the guaranteed number of spaces almost requires him to build a parking structure if he adds anything more.

Desire for more profit will almost certainly drive him to build something along the new boulevard and he could do that with parking above.

----------


## metro

> okc has a lot to learn about outdoor drinking/dining and rooftops, etc., though admittedly there has been lots of improvement of late. Ten years ago about your only decent outdoor dining options in the metro were the mont in norman and the original pearls on nw 63rd (rip).


this

----------


## shawnw

Sign lit up

----------


## Pete

Here's one from KD's Facebook page:

----------


## soonerguru

The logo kinda sucks, but I'm looking forward to some crab cakes.

----------


## metro

hashtag fugly

----------


## JarrodH

I did a walk through of this space last week and it is simply stunning. The amount of stone and granite used inside is absurd. They have an 1,100 bottle wine cellar, a huge bar, and tons of seating. 

I'm still curious to see how they plan to serve both $9 entrees and $200 bottles of wine. It seems like they tried to include too big of a demographic here for one concept. 
I can't imagine having a table of thunder fans in one booth drinking coke and eating chicken fried steaks and another table directly behind them eating $50 steak and seafood plates and drinking $200 bottles of wine. I am afraid they will scare off the clientele who will spend the money on the larger ticket items due to the fact that they wont have the environment conducive to the expected experience of fine dining.

----------


## sooner88

I heard that they will have two entirely separate menus. One regular menu, and one they refer to as the "Baller's Menu" that will include the higher priced menu items.

----------


## JarrodH

That is indeed  what I have been told as well. Having two menus doesn't change the fact that everyone will still be sitting in the same restaurant eating completely different meals. I just cant see the ambiance or experience being there for people eating on the "ballers menu". If im spending $200-$300 on a meal, I want somewhere such as the ranch or mickey mantles, a place where I can get an intimate experience and fine dining service.

----------


## shawnw

> That is indeed  what I have been told as well. Having two menus doesn't change the fact that everyone will still be sitting in the same restaurant eating completely different meals. I just cant see the ambiance or experience being there for people eating on the "ballers menu". If im spending $200-$300 on a meal, I want somewhere such as the ranch or mickey mantles, a place where I can get an intimate experience and fine dining service.



Wouldn't the "ballers" be in the VIP room?

----------


## JarrodH

The "Ballers" cant all be put in the VIP Room. Even if that were the case, are you going to ask people at the door how much they plan to spend and then seat them accordingly?

----------


## shawnw

I guess I was reading that literally. As in, KD and his basketball playing friends and associated folks in the business.

----------


## lasomeday

I can't wait to see both menus to compare....  Might have to order from both to throw them through a loop.

Foi gras appetizer, a chicken fried steak, mac and cheese, bottle of wine and a creme brule.  Sounds good to me.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I guess I was reading that literally. As in, KD and his basketball playing friends and associated folks in the business.


Maybe the "ballers" sign up for an exclusive member card and either flash it on a walk-in or call ahead to make a reservation for the VIP room.  Who knows though...

----------


## Dustin

> I heard that they will have two entirely separate menus. One regular menu, and one they refer to as the *"Baller's Menu"* that will include the higher priced menu items.


Hahaha!  That is awesome!

----------


## metro

Sounds like the two concept menu came from the same people who brought us the wonderful architecture that is Lower Bricktown.

----------


## jccouger

Don't understand why d is lower case...

----------


## PWitty

Man, you guys must not be too big into basketball shoes huh? While it's not exactly the same, Kd is the brand/logo that is on all of KD's basketball shoes. All of his newer shoes have a "Kd" logo on them somewhere, with the lowercase D like on the sign.

----------


## Pete

Yeah, I'm sure he can't use that exact logo without Nike's permission, but the one on the restaurant is pretty similar and thus leverages Durant as a brand:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I'm surprised he got clearance for that K............mart.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## metro

> Man, you guys must not be too big into basketball shoes huh? While it's not exactly the same, Kd is the brand/logo that is on all of KD's basketball shoes. All of his newer shoes have a "Kd" logo on them somewhere, with the lowercase D like on the sign.


LOL. Why don't you just say it's his personal logo/trademark. Kd is more than just shoes "homie".

----------


## PiePie

For some reason, the logo looks good when it is lit up but when it is not, it looks horrible

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> For some reason, the logo looks good when it is lit up but when it is not, it looks horrible


Kinda like how OKC looks awesome at night but crappy during the day...

----------


## PiePie

> Kinda like how OKC looks awesome at night but crappy during the day...


So true!

----------


## OKC4me

I think you should automatically get taken to the VIP room if you're wearing his jersey or shoes. I've spent enough money on all that stuff, I should be in the baller's room!  :Smile:

----------


## Urbanized

What if you are wearing a pair of his GAME-WORN shoes? I have a pair, but I might look like a clown in them. They're HUGE!

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> What if you are wearing a pair of his GAME-WORN shoes? I have a pair, but I might look like a clown in them. They're HUGE!


Do it! :-P

----------


## Urbanized

I enjoyed a preview/training dinner there last night with a friend who is general manager of Wes Welker's. The interior is VERY nice (decor is still going up). The bar area is beautiful and somewhat unusual. The wine room is a glass-enclosed tower with a spiral staircase leading up to a tiny secluded room at the top, just big enough of a single small table (not yet placed) for private wine tastings.

KD's private dining room faces the canal, with a private bar and a DJ booth. Private entrance. Seats 50. Available for private bookings on night when KD won't be using it.. There are also two connected public/private rooms on the other side of the restaurant. I say public/private because they are glass-enclosed...BUT the glass can be rendered instantly opaque at the flick of a switch. There are also retractable glass windows (think automobile side windows as far as operation) that roll up and down to block noise between the bar and dining room. The dining room has a stage for live performance, and the sound system is apparently crazy good/expensive. The bar itself is fronted by backlit, translucent stone panels (we were told it was onyx..?). The whole place is very comfortable and modern feeling, bathed in warm light with pops of Thunder blue LED lighting. Lots of great LED TVs including a couple of 90 inchers.

As for the food they are of course still dialing it in, but off to an excellent start. The filet is prime, and seriously one of the most tender steaks I've ever eaten. Also unbelievably reasonable for a prime filet with two non-a la carte sides, if the shown price holds (the menu was a sample menu and a work-in-progress). The smothered pork chop was really excellent. It came with a good corn succotash and HSRG stalwart standby red skin mashed potatoes, always good.

Predictably there were other Hal Smith crossover dishes on the menu, such as the meatloaf, but personally I love that meatloaf so I don't mind. The chicken fried steak was NOT like other HSRG CFS (notably Toby's) in that it is more fluffy/floury than crusty on the outside. Still GIANT. A couple of real high points of the meal were the mac and cheese (with smoked Gouda as an ingredient) and the unreal-good house-made sweet potato pie (I can't tell you how delicious this was).

Overall, I'm really pleased with the vibe and the menu. I think it's going to be a very nice addition.

----------


## catcherinthewry

^ Very exciting! I Can't with to try it.

----------


## David

Same here, I will have to try the mac & cheese and that pie.

----------


## OKVision4U

Thank you Kevin !  We are excited here.  This is going to be a fantastic "first class" addition to OKC and give our house something new to experience.  We can't wait. ...you had me at "sweet potato pie".  Thank you again.

----------


## OKC4me

I'm getting excited about this place. I'm sure the wait to eat here is going to be crazy!

I wonder if they will be selling tshirts for the restaurant?

----------


## metro

Gaudy architecture, tshirts, and first class don't usually belong in the same sentence.

----------


## Urbanized

I seriously doubt that they will be selling T-shirts, but who knows? Doesn't seem to fit what I saw inside. Not sure about the gaudy architecture comment. Most of the complaints I have heard on here seemed to be that the single story plains commercial styling wasn't aspiring to be anything special. When I think of gaudy architecture I think of Vegas.

----------


## Bellaboo

Anyone know the opening date   ?

----------


## betts

They have hats, or at least some of their employees have them.  I know one of the employees and she was wearing a KD's hat at the Thunder game last night.

----------


## Paseofreak

December 9th per an HSG manager.

----------


## Urbanized

> They have hats, or at least some of their employees have them.  I know one of the employees and she was wearing a KD's hat at the Thunder game last night.


My employees wear company logo hats. I don't sell them to the public. And we're a lot more low rent than the place where I had dinner the other night. But who knows.

----------


## Urbanized

By the way, I'm not sure how whether or not a place with a famous namesake sells logo merchandise has become the litmus test for whether or not it is nice. Mickey Mantle's has often had logo merchandise available (depending upon the whim of the GM), yet they also carry Louis XIII de Rmy Martin cognac behind the bar and regularly feature a $130 steak on their menu.

----------


## OKC4me

I think Kd was having a party there tonight. There were a lot of nice cars out front, and I saw Kd's van there. The redskins are playing tonight, so I'm sure that's whats going on.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I think Kd was having a party there tonight. There were a lot of nice cars out front, and I saw Kd's van there. The redskins are playing tonight, so I'm sure that's whats going on.


Fundraiser

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I think Kd was having a party there tonight.* There were a lot of nice cars out front,* and I saw Kd's van there. The redskins are playing tonight, so I'm sure that's whats going on.


Just curious, are we talking Lamborghini's, Ferrari's, Bentley's etc or Audi's, BMW's, Mercedes and that such.

----------


## dankrutka

Lots of pictures of the party on Mick Cornett's Twitter account...

----------


## Pete

Here's a decent photo of the bar area:

----------


## warreng88

Yeah, Desmond Mason, Perk and Serge Ibaka were all there last night according to Mick twitter page. I am sure there were more people than that, but those are the ones he posted.

----------


## JarrodH

Last night was the private viewing for friends and investors. All of the usual suspects were around including the HSRG Group and most of the players. The place looks fantastic and everyone had a great time.

----------


## Urbanized

That photo is not the best representation of the bar area. It's much larger than it appears in that photo. Also, below the bar top, the base is faced with backlit, translucent stone. And the white ceiling you see above the bar actually mimics the dimensions of the bar itself, and is suspended from a much taller ceiling. The light fixtures you see coming through the hole in the center create a very nice effect, and the bar definitely feels modern and upscale.

----------


## betts

> Yeah, Desmond Mason, Perk and Serge Ibaka were all there last night according to Mick twitter page. I am sure there were more people than that, but those are the ones he posted.


The pictures on Twitter are so funny.  If they show the player's full face at the bottom of the picture you can barely see Mick's face.  If they show Mick's face, part of the player's head is missing.  There's that much of a height disparity.

----------


## Pete

Here is a floor plan:

----------


## warreng88

KD just posted on facebook "Thanks to my OKC Thunder teammates for coming out to the opening of KD's!" and a picture of him with PJ3, Serge, Russ, Thabeet, Thabo, Fisher. Reggie and Ryan Gomes.

----------


## kevin lee

This place has an ample amount of private areas (I like it), almost New Yorkish. Anyone know if there's valet parking or do the high rollers have designated spots up front by the door.

----------


## Ginkasa

Those lots are shared by the other LB businesses. I'm not sure they can have reserved spaces. Valet has been done before, though that was several years ago.

----------


## onthestrip

Sounding like it will be a nice alternative to Mickey Mantles, which is a place good for before and after games but last couple times I tried to go after a Thunder game you couldnt get in the bar without a reservation. Wasnt a big fan of that.

----------


## warreng88

So is the entrance to the restaurant actually on the northeast side facing the Canal and Toby Keith's? Glad it's not facing the parking lot. Gives it more interaction with the canal.

----------


## Pete

> So is the entrance to the restaurant actually on the northeast side facing the Canal and Toby Keith's? Glad it's not facing the parking lot. Gives it more interaction with the canal.


Yes.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> So is the entrance to the restaurant actually on the northeast side facing the Canal and Toby Keith's? Glad it's not facing the parking lot. Gives it more interaction with the canal.





> Yes.


I never really noticed that in the renderings but that is a great thing.  Hopefully more people will enter from the canal stretch than from parking in the lots directly to the south.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> KD just posted on facebook "Thanks to my OKC Thunder teammates for coming out to the opening of KD's!" and a picture of him with PJ3, Serge, Russ, Thabeet, Thabo, Fisher. Reggie and Ryan Gomes.


No Perk, should we read something into this? (please)

----------


## warreng88

> No Perk, should we read something into this? (please)


I didn't see Perk in that particular picture, but I saw him in several other pictures.

----------


## Urbanized

To reiterate, the area marked "private dining" in that drawing is two separate glassed-in rooms (that can be made into a single room). The rooms are completely visible to the rest of the dining room through the floor-to-ceiling glass walls, but can be instantly rendered private and the glass opaque/frosted at the flick of a switch. I thought that was a particularly cool feature.

----------


## JarrodH

The privacy features are great but it still doesn't fix my concern regarding the separate menus and clientele. If its a couple that's a party of two, they aren't going to be placed in "private dining" and therefore still have to be in the main dining area. I am eager to see how the atmosphere compares to some of the nicer restaurants in which I order nicer entrees, wine, etc. I just cannot seeing this having the ambiance or feel of places such as Mickey's or the Ranch, yet still demanding the same price.

----------


## Urbanized

I didn't feel at all that the menus were "separate" when I looked them over (again, it was a draft menu). Like I said, I was there on a training night, so the "Baller" menu wasn't an option, but everything on the other menu was reasonably upscale, and there was nothing I would really consider downmarket about the menu or the restaurant. I can tell you for a certainty that I wouldn't feel comfortable going into the place in shorts and a T-shirt (which is funny, because I do that at the Mickey Mantle's bar ALL OF THE TIME).

I would place the REGULAR menu probably somewhere between Red Rock and Mickey Mantle's/Red Prime/Ranch as far as its offerings. That's the REGULAR menu. Preliminary prices on the menu _were_ surprisingly reasonable (less than $30 for an 8 oz prime filet WITH two sides), but there is nothing about the place that says Hooters or sports bar. It is unmistakably upscale.

----------


## Teo9969

> I didn't feel at all that the menus were "separate" when I looked them over (again, it was a draft menu). Like I said, I was there on a training night, so the "Baller" menu wasn't an option, but everything on the other menu was reasonably upscale, and there was nothing I would really consider downmarket about the menu or the restaurant. I can tell you for a certainty that I wouldn't feel comfortable going into the place in shorts and a T-shirt (which is funny, because I do that at the Mickey Mantle's bar ALL OF THE TIME).
> 
> I would place the REGULAR menu probably somewhere between Red Rock and Mickey Mantle's/Red Prime/Ranch as far as its offerings. That's the REGULAR menu. Preliminary prices on the menu _were_ surprisingly reasonable (less than $30 for an 8 oz prime filet WITH two sides), but there is nothing about the place that says Hooters or sports bar. It is unmistakably upscale.


Probably not a prime filet…Mahogany doesn't offer prime filets, and Mahogany is Hal's baby….I doubt he's bringing them into KD's.

How's the price on the Meatloaf compared to Toby Keith's and Red Rock?

----------


## Urbanized

> Probably not a prime filet…Mahogany doesn't offer prime filets, and Mahogany is Hal's baby….I doubt he's bringing them into KD's.
> 
> How's the price on the Meatloaf compared to Toby Keith's and Red Rock?


Other than the fact that the general manager of HSRG's Wes Welker's, (and former longtime GM of Mickey Mantle's) who I was dining with pointed out to us that they were prime. Now, they might have just been for that night, but who knows. All I know is what was there that night was indeed prime. And outstanding.

Regarding the meatloaf, I forgot to check the price. The whole evening was a comp (due to being a training night), so I didn't pore over pricing like I probably should have. The filet just stuck out to me because it was outstanding...AND served with two sides rather than a la carte...AND was sub-$30....

----------


## Pete

More photos from Kd's Facebook page:

----------


## catch22

I walked by the north side of the building today. Absolutely no interaction. The patio is very small and not connected directly to the canal pathway. Also on a different elevation. 

Someone get hogan out of this city.

----------


## Rover

It is very open to the canal.  In the spring with people sitting outside it should be nice. I know a 10" step up may be a major barrier to some people, but I just don't get it being a problem.  More of a problem is the lack of anything interesting across the canal from them.  The Sonic building is dead at night and people don't hang out there.

----------


## bchris02

> I walked by the north side of the building today. Absolutely no interaction. The patio is very small and not connected directly to the canal pathway. Also on a different elevation. 
> 
> Someone get hogan out of this city.


The design is far better than what Hogan originally proposed which had NO interaction with the canal.  This is probably the best thing west of the Harkins, by far.  It's still underwhelming compared to what could have been though.  All of Lower Bricktown is such a catastrophic waste of an opportunity.  It is the epitome of all that is wrong with OKC.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> The design is far better than what Hogan originally proposed which had NO interaction with the canal.  This is probably the best thing west of the Harkins, by far.  It's still underwhelming compared to what could have been though.  All of Lower Bricktown is such a catastrophic waste of an opportunity.  It is the epitome of all that is wrong with OKC.


Not all, most. The centennial is fine.

----------


## bchris02

> Not all, most. The centennial is fine.


The Centennial is west of the Harkins.  I said everything east of it is a joke with the exception of the new KD restaurant, which is _barely_ acceptable.

----------


## BG918

I've never liked the Centennial because of two things: 1) not all brick with cheap looking EIFS/stucco on the upper floors and 2) it misses an opportunity to create a defined corner on Reno and has a setback/parking in front of Starbucks.  If only the original designers had replicated the look of the existing buildings on the canal..

----------


## catch22

> It is very open to the canal.  In the spring with people sitting outside it should be nice. I know a 10" step up may be a major barrier to some people, but I just don't get it being a problem.  More of a problem is the lack of anything interesting across the canal from them.  The Sonic building is dead at night and people don't hang out there.


Sure the small part of the patio that is butting next to the canal. The rest is set back by a nice green lawn. And then tapers off to where the grass is a huge buffer between the building and the canal. Nice suburban yard .

----------


## Rover

Yes, we all hate green, even a few feet of it. Darned anti urban grass. (btw, if that's considered equivalent of a nice suburban yard, then I understand the lack of understanding of the appeal of single family residences many on here have.)

Why not focus first on actually getting a good canal side experience in upper BT?  Serious lack of inter connectivity there, but lets gripe about a couple of feet of grass where someone actually has created a nice canal side dining area despite a serious lack of canal ambiance on either side or across the canal.  Lol.

----------


## soonerguru

I walked past KDs on the canal last night and thought it was a marked improvement over what was there before. I suspect when weather improves it will have some decent patio action.

----------


## shawnw

> The Sonic building is dead at night and people don't hang out there.


Not _entirely_ correct. On many weekend evenings during the warm months, some of the city's teenaged breakdancers duck-tape cardboard to the stage there and perform (which would be in view of that patio). Last time I was there during such a performance I was surprised to find more than 20 people sitting there watching them (and putting money in the tip jar).

----------


## shawnw

> The Sonic building is dead at night and people don't hang out there.


Not _entirely_ correct. On many weekend evenings during the warm months, some of the city's teenaged breakdancers duck-tape cardboard to the stage there and perform (which would be in view of that patio). Last time I was there during such a performance I was surprised to find more than 20 people sitting there watching them (and putting money in the tip jar). I know it's not enough, but it's SOMEthing...

----------


## Bellaboo

> Not _entirely_ correct. On many weekend evenings during the warm months, some of the city's teenaged breakdancers duck-tape cardboard to the stage there and perform (which would be in view of that patio). Last time I was there during such a performance I was surprised to find more than 20 people sitting there watching them (and putting money in the tip jar). I know it's not enough, but it's SOMEthing...


I saw this same thing, except there was a fairly large crowd.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I saw this same thing, except there was a fairly large crowd.


There's a pic of this action somewhere on this website.  Pretty sure Praedura posted the pic since he finds 'em all the time...

----------


## shawnw

> There's a pic of this action somewhere on this website.  Pretty sure Praedura posted the pic since he finds 'em all the time...


I may have posted mine, but I didn't take a picture of the crowd... here it is again...

----------


## Praedura

> There's a pic of this action somewhere on this website.  Pretty sure Praedura posted the pic since he finds 'em all the time...


Yep, I'm a pretty obsessive photo trawler.  :Redface: 

I believe that you're referring to this pic:



Which comes from this thread:

http://www.okctalk.com/current-event...to-thread.html

Btw -- that's a great thread to go back through and browse the photos. With wintry madness heading our way, the sunny spring pics should cheer anyone up.  :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

I've also come across some videos from time to time that show activity around that area of LB.

An example:
*Blush Crew* Adorn - YouTube

This is some kids who shot a performance video in front of the canal by the Sonic HQ.

A couple of screenshots:





In the second one, you see how they're in front of what is now KD's Restaurant.

So yeah, I think this part of the canal will have people and life and things going on.

----------


## shawnw

And the crowds have been much bigger than what you see here.

----------


## Praedura

Another pic showing activity along that section of the canal:

----------


## Pete

Kd's Facebook page is now saying Wednesday December 11th will be the official opening.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Time for a Twitter update?  :Wink:

----------


## PhiAlpha

> It is very open to the canal.  In the spring with people sitting outside it should be nice. I know a 10" step up may be a major barrier to some people, but I just don't get it being a problem.  More of a problem is the lack of anything interesting across the canal from them.  The Sonic building is dead at night and people don't hang out there.


Maybe if the patio proves successful (I don't know why it wouldn't) they'll expand it in the future. There aren't just a ton of patios on the canal so you never know. If more patio seats = more $$$ there's always a chance.

----------


## Rover

Here's hoping people choose/insist on sitting outside.  It is amazing what demand will do.  If people start going their BECAUSE they can sit outside, then we will see more doing it.  People need to ASK the restaurant for outside seating.

----------


## Bellaboo

kd's site -

Kd's Southern Cuisine

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Here's hoping people choose/insist on sitting outside.  It is amazing what demand will do.  If people start going their BECAUSE they can sit outside, then we will see more doing it.  People need to ASK the restaurant for outside seating.


Here's to that.

----------


## kevinpate

Maybe t is because I grew up with picnics, bbq's, backyard munching, church suppers, political bean dinners and pie suppers galore.  But I really have never understood the near complete fascination/obsession some folks seem to have with being able to dine outdoors when they go out with friends, on date nights, with out of town guests, etc. If it floats yer boat, have at it, but give me a comfortable chair and no car noise or exhaust any day.

----------


## Bellaboo

I like kd's Resturant phone number -    701.3535

----------


## Urbanized

No car noise OR exhaust there; and the boats are electric!

----------


## circuitboard

So what is the food like? Anything to write home about? I cant try it... since I moved.

----------


## Urbanized

Read my review some posts prior. Admittedly it was a training session when I ate there.

----------


## Pete

Some new photos from Kd's Facebook page -- they officially open today:


Private dining room; private bar on right:

----------


## jccouger

I want you guys to take this moment to soak in how nice the inside dining area of this establishment is. And then after you do that, I want you to question why anyone would want to dine out on a patio compared to inside in these surroundings. Some of you guys..... SMH

----------


## kevinpate

> i want you guys to take this moment to soak in how nice the inside dining area of this establishment is. And then after you do that, i want you to question why anyone would want to dine out on a patio compared to inside in these surroundings. Some of you guys..... Smh


*like*

----------


## andrew3077

> I want you guys to take this moment to soak in how nice the inside dining area of this establishment is. And then after you do that, I want you to question why anyone would want to dine out on a patio compared to inside in these surroundings. Some of you guys..... SMH


Same reason that people will sit outside on the wildly popular patio at Packard's. There's no reason you can't have a nice interior and nice outdoor dining space too.

----------


## Urbanized

Not every visit there will be for a formal-ish dinner. The restaurant is scheduled open for lunch several days a week. Some folks will just want to have drinks pre-game or pre-concert, and not sit for a full dinner. Some people might feel under-dressed when they stumble across the place during the summer, wearing shorts and sandals. Some people just love sitting outside, especially when the setting is as nice as it is there. I can think of a thousand reasons why the outside dining area is worthwhile.

----------


## Urbanized

> Some new photos from Kd's Facebook page -- they officially open today:
> 
> 
> Private dining room; private bar on right:
> 
> ...


This room is represented as KD's private dining room (though it is available for other private bookings). As you mention, it has a private bar on the right. To the left of the door is an alcove that serves as a DJ booth (pre-wired). The windows on the left look onto the canal, to help orient you. Behind the spot where the photo was taken is a private entrance/exit, which opens directly to the outside.

----------


## Urbanized

In the bottom two photos in that series you can see the other private dining area(s) both from the inside and the outside. They are separated from the main dining room with clear glass (looks cloudy in the photo, but it is clear). They are also divided from each other with a folding glass wall (it is retracted in the photo, making it one room). When a switch is flipped, all of the glass surrounding these spaces instantly turns opaque white, making them totally private.

Also, in the second pic from the top you can see the spiral staircase tower inside the wine room. When you get to the top of the stairs, there is room for a single small table for private wine tastings. Bring a sweater!

----------


## jccouger

None of these replies are validation for all the negative feedback this establishment has received on this board (before it was even open, nonetheless). 

If you want to eat outside (yeah, on the 5 days of the year where sitting outside is actual a good idea in OKC due to weather: Wind/heat/cold/severe) there are a few patio spots. So why complain? Most of the people on this board felt like the patio should be the defining feature and focus of this restaurant/bar. 

Believe it or not, a lot of companies shift their focus to a defined consumer market THAT YOU ARE NOT A PART OF. Get over it, or eat inside and enjoy the pleasant decor and aesthetics while dining at one of the premier establishments in the entire city.

----------


## onthestrip

> If you want to eat outside (yeah, on the 5 days of the year where sitting outside is actual a good idea in OKC due to weather: Wind/heat/cold/severe) there are a few patio spots. So why complain? Most of the people on this board felt like the patio should be the defining feature and focus of this restaurant/bar. 
> 
> Believe it or not, a lot of companies shift their focus to a defined consumer market THAT YOU ARE NOT A PART OF. Get over it, or eat inside and enjoy the pleasant decor and aesthetics while dining at one of the premier establishments in the entire city.


Well first, what would be the point of building a canal if we just put up blank walls along it?
Second, Im not sure I saw anyone say that a patio should be the defining feature, only that it should have an actual canal side patio. I think early permitting plans had zero patio.
Lastly, there are much more than 5 temperate days a year that allow you to enjoy a patio. And on the many slightly warm/cold days, its quite easy to provide shade/space heaters. If you sweat uncontrollably when its 80 or shiver when its 60, you have tons of space inside to eat. But several of us like the option of dining al fresco

----------


## warreng88

Yeah, if done right, there are a solid several months of outdoor dining weather. You can put space heaters for the colder days and shaded areas and fans for the warmer days. Look at all the restaurants on 23rd street who have outdoor dining and how busy it was in the spring, fall and sometimes in the summer, like this past July. That comment about 5 days of the year only being a good idea is ignorant at best.

----------


## bchris02

> Well first, what would be the point of building a canal if we just put up blank walls along it?
> Second, Im not sure I saw anyone say that a patio should be the defining feature, only that it should have an actual canal side patio. I think early permitting plans had zero patio.
> Lastly, there are much more than 5 temperate days a year that allow you to enjoy a patio. And on the many slightly warm/cold days, its quite easy to provide shade/space heaters. If you sweat uncontrollably when its 80 or shiver when its 60, you have tons of space inside to eat. The several of us like the option of dining al fresco


Yeah I completely agree. Most of Hogan's work, with the exception of this and the Centennial, completely ignore the canal. There is no point in even having the canal if you aren't going to build a unique experience that relates to it. Secondly, there is plenty of time when outdoor dining is still enjoyable despite not having the greatest climate in the nation. It's very popular in Dallas and they have hotter summers than OKC does.

----------


## jccouger

I thought my exaggeration would be obvious.. guess not. Hold one one second, I'll go count all the days over the last 5 years that fell between 65-80 degrees during dining hours with less then 5 mph wind and no precipitation and average them on a per yearly basis...

....

...

Okay, I only counted 3. :/

More then half of the discussion in this thread has been about the patio. That in it self leads me to believe some people here expect the patio to be the defining feature whether or not I can get an exact quote saying that, and guess what, I won't even bother to look for one. 

The point of everything I said (and you guys can find points right? and not discuss individual exaggerated points like 5 year old would describing a movie) is that this place was made to be an upscale dining experience. "patio dining" is for a more relaxed, laid back setting. This place is not that. They even put in a patio despite not wanting too, and there are still people on here complaining about there not being enough space. If you don't like it, then don't eat there. I'm 100% positive Kd's will be a raging success with or without your business or patio dining. 

P.S. Don't go around throwing "ignorant" remarks towards me either Warren. Even I can have a heated conversation without taking a ridiculous insult at somebody.

----------


## jccouger

The canal creates a a walkable median to and from places in a district. Just because its there doesn't mean it has to be the focus of the establishment. 

Despite everything I've said, I'm glad there is a patio. But even after they put the patio in there was still constant bickering about it not being nice enough. Ugh.

----------


## warreng88

> I thought my exaggeration would be obvious.. guess not. Hold one one second, I'll go count all the days over the last 5 years that fell between 65-80 degrees during dining hours with less then 5 mph wind and no precipitation and average them on a per yearly basis...
> 
> ....
> 
> ...
> 
> Okay, I only counted 3. :/
> 
> More then half of the discussion in this thread has been about the patio. That in it self leads me to believe some people here expect the patio to be the defining feature whether or not I can get an exact quote saying that, and guess what, I won't even bother to look for one. 
> ...


You can have an "upscale dining experience" and patio dining together. Look at urbanspoon and some of the upscale eateries on there. Cheever's, Redrock, Republic, Paseo Grill, Cafe do Brasil, Ranch Steakhouse, Ludivine, Cafe 501, Pearl's, Flint, West, I could keep going, but I won't. Most of these have pretty descent outdoor dining areas and are pretty upscale, restaurants. You can have both, especially on the canal.

PS, I never said you were ignorant, I said the comment was ignorant. You even stated it was an exaggeration, so that is fine.

----------


## jccouger

Ok, I was wrong about saying that patio dining is exclusive to a lower then high end class dining establishments. Though I still think the higher end you go on the scale, the less dining on a patio becomes desirable to the patrons. 

I'd much rather eat inside Kd's after seeing these pictures and I consider myself more of a outside person in general. I don't have any problem with them having a patio, I have a problem with all the people talking down on this place for the SOLE REASON of them not having a patio that meets their unrealistic expectations.

----------


## warreng88

> Ok, I was wrong about saying that patio dining is exclusive to a lower then high end class dining establishments. Though I still think the higher end you go on the scale, the less dining on a patio becomes desirable to the patrons. 
> 
> I'd much rather eat inside Kd's after seeing these pictures and I consider myself more of a outside person in general. I don't have any problem with them having a patio, I have a problem with all the people talking down on this place for the SOLE REASON of them not having a patio that meets their unrealistic expectations.


I think people are excited about the restaurant's food and the interior, but think the exterior could be better, especially being one of the last large lots on the canal. 10 years ago, I don't think many people would have cared because we just wanted something, anything to go down there to give it more life. I do agree that the patio could interact better with the canal, much like Bourbon Street just a few hundred feet upstream, but it's not the end all, be all of this restaurant.

----------


## dankrutka

> P.S. Don't go around throwing "ignorant" remarks towards me either Warren. Even I can have a heated conversation without taking a ridiculous insult at somebody.


Actually "ignorant" is not really an insult in my opinion. Ignorance just means lacking knowledge. We are all ignorant on specific topics. I am ignorant on many topics. Calling someone stupid is an insult. Calling someone ignorant means they lack knowledge on some specific topic. There are a lot of people who post on this board without knowledge on a topic and actually should be called out in that respect.

----------


## warreng88

> Actually "ignorant" is not really an insult in my opinion. Ignorance just means lacking knowledge. We are all ignorant on specific topics. I am ignorant on many topics. Calling someone stupid is an insult. Calling someone ignorant means they lack knowledge on some specific topic. There are a lot of people who post on this board without knowledge on a topic and actually should be called out in that respect.


Thanks for the clarification. I admit that I am completely ignorant on how weather works or architecture. I use this site a lot of times to help my ignorance.

----------


## bchris02

> The canal creates a a walkable median to and from places in a district. Just because its there doesn't mean it has to be the focus of the establishment. 
> 
> Despite everything I've said, I'm glad there is a patio. But even after they put the patio in there was still constant bickering about it not being nice enough. Ugh.


Except most of Hogan's work is focused toward the surface parking rather than the canal as the median of access. I think the patio's importance in this restaurant is overemphasized simply because almost everything else Hogan has built down there would have been underwhelming even if built on Memorial Rd. People wanted _something_ that interacts with the canal. KD's, while it doesn't have the perfect canal-side patio dining experience, is better than anything else Hogan has done.

----------


## dankrutka

> Thanks for the clarification. I admit that I am completely ignorant on how weather works or architecture. I use this site a lot of times to help my ignorance.


I agree. I'm interested in urbanism, but pretty much everything I've learned about the topic has been from those with more knowledge than me on this site. I've been ignorant on many issues discussed in this forum, but I hope to keep learning more...  :Big Grin:

----------


## BDP

> The canal creates a a walkable median to and from places in a district.


Actually, that's just what it has become in lower bricktown. That is not what was intended. Mainly because Hogan has largely ignored the canal, it is now just a median down there, instead of an integrated attraction. However, when the canal was pitched people were thinking more along the lines of this:



or this:




than a wall lined water ditch. Above Reno, it still can be and is getting closer, but it's taking a long time. Now, lower bricktown will never come close to that and that's a failure, imo, considering this was a public project to add value and attraction to an area and the developer ignored the very thing the community spent money on. It was not supposed to just be a median.

And the reality is that KD's place looks awesome and, after seeing the pictures of the inside, feels even more out of place than I thought it would. It's kind of an odd ball down there. But anyway, yes, any place built on the canal should NOT ignore the canal and if patios don't fit an establishment's business model, image, or target demographic, then it's simply a bad idea to put in on the canal. This is not like there was a waterway there that the city spruced up to facilitate development. It was completely dreamed up from scratch as a way to add value and to create an attraction. The truth is that by Hogan ignoring the canal the way he did, he has completely undermined the city's intent and vastly limited what the canal could do for the district.

----------


## BDP

> KD's, while it doesn't have the perfect canal-side patio dining experience, is better than anything else Hogan has done.


Yep. Too bad it can't set a new trend down there.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Actually, that's just what it has become in lower bricktown. That is not what was intended. Mainly because Hogan has largely ignored the canal, it is now just a median down there, instead of an integrated attraction. However, when the canal was pitched people were thinking more along the lines of this:
> 
> 
> 
> or this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly this.

----------


## PWitty

First off, I think Kd's looks amazing.

Second, I have a question. I'm from KC, and have only started keeping up with OKC developments for about the last year and a half after I knew I would end up living here after graduation. So I don't know any of the past details about these projects or what was initially envisioned back when they were proposed. But if the canal was initially proposed to mirror SA's riverwalk (more canal interaction) more so than what it has become, then why in the world did whoever is responsible for real estate development along the canal ever agree to any designs that didn't center around having a fantastic canal interaction? I have seen a lot of people blame the developers, like Hogan, but I would imagine if designs were continually shot down until they proposed one with superb canal interaction then this would have never become a problem.

----------


## BDP

> But if the canal was initially proposed to mirror SA's riverwalk (more canal interaction) more so than what it has become, then why in the world did whoever is responsible for real estate development along the canal ever agree to any designs that didn't center around having a fantastic canal interaction?.


Oh boy.

It's a crazy mix of lawsuits, incompetent oversight, and financing woes. It really wasn't just one thing. But the city did in fact offer incentives to Bass Pro to build a store in lower bricktown. That's kind of indicative of the type of leadership we had at the time and it very much set the tone for what below Reno could ever be.

Here's kind of a summary from Lackmeyer:

Developer will seek OK of plan for site in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown: early promises compared to actual development | News OK

----------


## bchris02

> Yep. Too bad it can't set a new trend down there.


It could if Hogan would just sell the thing to another developer who could develop some of the canal-side surface parking.  There is more surface parking bumped up to the edge of the canal than there is development.




> First off, I think Kd's looks amazing.
> 
> Second, I have a question. I'm from KC, and have only started keeping up with OKC developments for about the last year and a half after I knew I would end up living here after graduation. So I don't know any of the past details about these projects or what was initially envisioned back when they were proposed. But if the canal was initially proposed to mirror SA's riverwalk (more canal interaction) more so than what it has become, then why in the world did whoever is responsible for real estate development along the canal ever agree to any designs that didn't center around having a fantastic canal interaction? I have seen a lot of people blame the developers, like Hogan, but I would imagine if designs were continually shot down until they proposed one with superb canal interaction then this would have never become a problem.


OKC has historically had extremely low standards for what is considered acceptable development.  In the early 2000s, this city was so desperate for any downtown development that they pretty much accepted whatever came its way.  The result has been, like so many other OKC projects prior to 2010, the absolute bare minimum and cheapest thing the developer could get away with.  Allowing Bass Pro to build a standard, suburban style big box with surface parking facing the canal set the precedent and then the dominoes just fell.  Fortunately, the standards here are slowly starting to increase.  Luckily, the city made Hogan design KD's with at least some canal interaction (I don't believe ANY was originally proposed, not even an entrance facing it).  That's a sign that people are fed up with the status quo and are demanding better.  Unfortunately what could have been the crown jewel of downtown OKC has already been squandered and its going to take somebody with deep pockets and major vision to salvage it.

----------


## dankrutka

> Now, lower bricktown will never come close to that and that's a failure, imo, considering this was a public project to add value and attraction to an area and the developer ignored the very thing the community spent money on. It was not supposed to just be a median... But anyway, yes, any place built on the canal should NOT ignore the canal and if patios don't fit an establishment's business model, image, or target demographic, then it's simply a bad idea to put in on the canal. This is not like there was a waterway there that the city spruced up to facilitate development. It was completely dreamed up from scratch as a way to add value and to create an attraction. The truth is that by Hogan ignoring the canal the way he did, he has completely undermined the city's intent and vastly limited what the canal could do for the district.


Thank you for taking the time to explain why Lower Bricktown severely misused taxpayer money and missed an opportunity to create something special. Considering what it should have been, it is an absolute disaster that took quite a bit of incompetence to come to fruition.

----------


## bchris02

> Thank you for taking the time to explain why Lower Bricktown severely misused taxpayer money and missed an opportunity to create something special. Considering what it should have been, it is an absolute disaster that took quite a bit of incompetence to come to fruition.


I completely agree and I get angry every time I think about it. Especially considering the designer of Kansas City's Power and Light district ALMOST got to design Lower Bricktown.  The P&L district is vastly superior to anything currently in OKC in my opinion.  It isn't necessarily in terms of the venues in the district, but the sense of place it provides.  What OKC is desperately lacking downtown is not specific amenities but acceptable placemaking.

Here is what was orignially promised by Hogan.

----------


## PWitty

> Oh boy.
> 
> It's a crazy mix of lawsuits, incompetent oversight, and financing woes. It really wasn't just one thing. But the city did in fact offer incentives to Bass Pro to build a store in lower bricktown. That's kind of indicative of the type of leadership we had at the time and it very much set the tone for what below Reno could ever be.
> 
> Here's kind of a summary from Lackmeyer:
> 
> Developer will seek OK of plan for site in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown: early promises compared to actual development | News OK


That's interesting. I didn't know the designer of P&L made a bid to develop Lower Bricktown. I would be curious to see what kind of conceptual renderings he would have come up with for the area. I like P&L a lot but overall it has a very small footprint, especially compared to Lower Bricktown. His design style would have to be much different. 

I don't know if I would go as far as saying P&L is vastly superior to anything in OKC. P&L is great but my only complaint is that it feels more like a single establishment, because of how it is constructed and it's smaller overall footprint, rather than a bunch of individual establishments that make it up. I don't know how to really explain it, but I don't get a feeling of uniqueness from any of the bars/restaurants. It kinda feels like a big amusement park where certain areas have a different theme, but you still feel like you're in the same place. Plus, it's ridiculous the amount of times you have to pay cover!  :Icon Evil:  My buddies and I usually stick to Westport or Waldo when I'm back home and save P&L for special occasions (Big 12 tourny, concert, etc.) because of how expensive everything there is. 

Hanging out in P&L during the Big 12 Basketball Tournament is by far the most fun I've ever had at P&L though. I would encourage anyone who hasn't been to check that out. 

Sorry for getting off topic  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## bchris02

> That's interesting. I didn't know the designer of P&L made a bid to develop Lower Bricktown. I would be curious to see what kind of conceptual renderings he would have come up with for the area. I like P&L a lot but overall it has a very small footprint, especially compared to Lower Bricktown. His design style would have to be much different. 
> 
> I don't know if I would go as far as saying P&L is vastly superior to anything in OKC. P&L is great but my only complaint is that it feels more like a single establishment, because of how it is constructed and it's smaller overall footprint, rather than a bunch of individual establishments that make it up. I don't know how to really explain it, but I don't get a feeling of uniqueness from any of the bars/restaurants. It kinda feels like a big amusement park where certain areas have a different theme, but you still feel like you're in the same place. Plus, it's ridiculous the amount of times you have to pay cover!  My buddies and I usually stick to Westport or Waldo when I'm back home and save P&L for special occasions (Big 12 tourny, concert, etc.) because of how expensive everything there is. 
> 
> Hanging out in P&L during the Big 12 Basketball Tournament is by far the most fun I've ever had at P&L though. I would encourage anyone who hasn't been to check that out. 
> 
> Sorry for getting off topic


You are right that P&L lacks real uniqueness but its still cool nonetheless and better than Hogan's Lower Bricktown.  It's very similar to 4th St Live in Louisville or even the Epicentre in Charlotte.  I mean, what is Lower Bricktown other than Toby Keith's, now KD's, a suburban hotel, the Sonic HQ, Earl's BBQ, Cold Stone, the theater, and surface parking?  That's hardly what I would call a "Bricktown Entertainment District."  I think the Centennial is part of it and if so thats by far the best thing there.  I would consider that an acceptable building but everything but that and KD's is absolute crap.

----------


## PWitty

> You are right that P&L lacks real uniqueness but its still cool nonetheless...


I agree that it is still a cool development. I also probably take it for granted a little because I'm so used to it, but then again I think everybody is guilty of the "grass is greener" mindset about where they're from.

----------


## soonerguru

Tried it.

Atmosphere: Amazing (once they figured out how to operate their audio system). The decor is top notch. Elegant and comfortable. There's a soaring lighted chamber with wines that serves as a focal point. The bar area features a huge rectangular setting that would make a great place to enjoy a drink and a game -- or even to dine at the bar.

Food: Mediocre. FROZEN FRENCH FRIES. The floor manager said they have frozen French fries, because, you know, "costs." Let's just say this: there isn't a lot on the menu you can't find at any other Hal Smith joint, chicken fry, okra, meatloaf, middling BBQ, etc. Make no mistake, to the person who said this would be "Maryland-style Southern Cuisine," well, no. NO CRABCAKES ON THE MENU! When I asked about the "Maryland style," I was promptly corrected that, no, this is "Southern style" (and they kept pushing the fried green tomatoes, for which I've never carried a torch).

To be charitable, there were a few things on the menu that were quite good:  I had some oysters, which were delish. The collared greens were excellent. The Caribbean slaw they serve with the catfish was good. The honey fried chicken was quite good. Other things were blah. I was somewhat surprised they have very little seafood on the menu. They have trout and catfish on the main menu, and a cold shellfish appetizer on the "Baller" menu. They did have a snapper special tonight but it didn't excite.

It's a great space but the food is all Hal Smithed up. If you like that kind of thing, Enjoy!


Overall, it's a weird place. The atmosphere is very cool and energetic, with a fabulous selection of wines and drinks, and very friendly and accommodating service, but the food menu is fairly pedestrian and uninteresting. With the right menu, however, this could be one of OKC's best dining destinations.

----------


## Dustin

Are you ####ing serious?  Frozen fries?  The manager told you that?  I don't think he knows how cheap potatoes are and how easy it is to cut them yourself.  He's actually wasting money buying them frozen.  

I'm definitely gonna have to wait for more reviews before I hit up this place.

----------


## Pete

The have their menus up -- both main and 'baller' -- here:

Kd's Southern Cuisine

----------


## soonerguru

Follow up: I spoke to Joe, the GM (owner of Paseo Grill). I shared my thoughts and he said they are still tweaking the menu to get things going. It is a really fun place to go, but the food isn't particularly inspired. I trust that he will make changes to improve it. He's a great operator.

----------


## Urbanized

Joe is not the GM. Greg is the GM. Joe is Greg's boss. He's in charge of multiple restaurants.

----------


## soonerguru

> Joe is not the GM. Greg is the GM. Joe is Greg's boss. He's in charge of multiple restaurants.


Thank you.

----------


## Urbanized

You're welcome, of course!

----------


## pure

Front page on Yahoo. Y! SPORTS

----------


## cferguson

A buddy of mine went there last night. KD was out in the front taking pictures with people. He said that there were a bunch of laker players there too. (Kobe was not there). He said that KD was super nice to him and did not act annoyed about taking pictures. Definitely cool to be dining next to KD and other NBA players!

----------


## Bellaboo

I went tonight. Got to tour Kd's private dining room. Thunder and the Lakers team both are to be there after the game tonight. I questioned that the Lakers had another game in Charlotte tomorrow, but he said he was told that they were supposed to be over after the game.

He said Jordan Farmar and a few bench players were there last night.

----------


## BoulderSooner

Lakers left to fly out right after the game

----------


## Bellaboo

> Lakers left to fly out right after the game


I questioned the waiter about that, and he told me twice they were scheduled to come after the game.....My daughter in law went after the game, had her picture taken with Clay Bennet and mentioned she saw Kendrick Perkins talking to some folks.. She did not mention the Lakers at all, which leads me to believe they flew out right after the game.

Clay Bennett told her that he hoped that the fans would not get apathetic about the team winning so much. I think this was in reference that the crowd is leaving early on blowouts.....

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I questioned the waiter about that, and he told me twice they were scheduled to come after the game.....My daughter in law went after the game, had her picture taken with Clay Bennet and mentioned she saw Kendrick Perkins talking to some folks.. She did not mention the Lakers at all, which leads me to believe they flew out right after the game.
> 
> Clay Bennett told her that he hoped that the fans would not get apathetic about the team winning so much. *I think this was in reference that the crowd is leaving early on blowouts.....*


This is the only thing I can't stand during TV broadcasts, especially national broadcasts.  Thank God NBA games are at 7PM for home crowds.  Any later and OKC would be in trouble.

***side note thinking is that most of the ticket holders in the lower bowl are "older" and get tired earlier so in games that are blowouts, they leave early so they can go home back to the suburbs and get to bed.  That's why OKC needs the influx of affordable downtown living for singles and younger couples that can afford to live downtown and be downtown where everything happens.  Spend money on season tickets instead of that car and the maintenance that comes along with it!***

----------


## soonerguru

Most of the empty seats I see at Thunder games are where the ultra-richies are sitting. Maybe Clay ought to have a talk to some of his friends about leaving early.  :Smile:

----------


## betts

> This is the only thing I can't stand during TV broadcasts, especially national broadcasts.  Thank God NBA games are at 7PM for home crowds.  Any later and OKC would be in trouble.
> 
> ***side note thinking is that most of the ticket holders in the lower bowl are "older" and get tired earlier so in games that are blowouts, they leave early so they can go home back to the suburbs and get to bed.  That's why OKC needs the influx of affordable downtown living for singles and younger couples that can afford to live downtown and be downtown where everything happens.  Spend money on season tickets instead of that car and the maintenance that comes along with it!***


I think you have people who go to the games because they truly love basketball.  Those people not only want to see KD, Russ and Serge play, but they want to see how the rookies and second team are progressing.  They don't consider the last quarter "garbage time", even in a blowout.  These are the people who will be in the arena even when the team has bad years.  They're the core fans.

Then there are people who like watching the stars only and/or who are obsessed with traffic.  They think they'll be in an end of OU football type traffic jam if they stay til the end. They aren't geniuses at math. Or they park in the $20 garage immediately adjacent to the Peake, which actually does take forever to empty for some reason. 

It sure helps regardless to live downtown where you can walk home after the game.

----------


## Garin

> Tried it.
> 
> Atmosphere: Amazing (once they figured out how to operate their audio system). The decor is top notch. Elegant and comfortable. There's a soaring lighted chamber with wines that serves as a focal point. The bar area features a huge rectangular setting that would make a great place to enjoy a drink and a game -- or even to dine at the bar.
> 
> 
> 
> Food: Mediocre. FROZEN FRENCH FRIES. The floor manager said they have frozen French fries, because, you know, "costs." Let's just say this: there isn't a lot on the menu you can't find at any other Hal Smith joint, chicken fry, okra, meatloaf, middling BBQ, etc. Make no mistake, to the person who said this would be "Maryland-style Southern Cuisine," well, no. NO CRABCAKES ON THE MENU! When I asked about the "Maryland style," I was promptly corrected that, no, this is "Southern style" (and they kept pushing the fried green tomatoes, for which I've never carried a torch).
> 
> To be charitable, there were a few things on the menu that were quite good:  I had some oysters, which were delish. The collared greens were excellent. The Caribbean slaw they serve with the catfish was good. The honey fried chicken was quite good. Other things were blah. I was somewhat surprised they have very little seafood on the menu. They have trout and catfish on the main menu, and a cold shellfish appetizer on the "Baller" menu. They did have a snapper special tonight but it didn't excite.
> ...



Sounds like Charleston's to me.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Most of the empty seats I see at Thunder games are where the ultra-richies are sitting. Maybe Clay ought to have a talk to some of his friends about leaving early.


This.

----------


## kevinpate

> Most of the empty seats I see at Thunder games are where the ultra-richies are sitting. Maybe Clay ought to have a talk to some of his friends about leaving early.



A shame they can't/don't  hire seat sitters to come in and watch the last quarter in their place.  I bet there are any number of folks, young and not so alike, who would be more than happy to come in and have great seats for even just a part of a game.

----------


## kevinpate

Back on topic though, the menu does look interesting.  I need to get me up there soon.

----------


## shawnw

Stepped in tonight just to see what the wait was like... 2.5 hours. Now that I know they are on open table I'll just book something far out and walk in and sit...

BTW approach from the canal level. It's a tad annoying to walk completely around the building if you come from the Earl's level. Would be nice if they added stairs right at that corner (where the ramp starts) down to the canal like they added stairs near the north side of the fountain a few years ago. It used to not make sense to not have stairs right there, but now I think it would makes sense to add them.

----------


## David

Tried to go yesterday, didn't realized until we got there that it wasn't open for lunch (yet?). It was mildly irritating, but at least there are other choices in the area and it wasn't a waste of a drive.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Tried to go yesterday, didn't realized until we got there that it wasn't open for lunch (yet?). It was mildly irritating, but at least there are other choices in the area and it wasn't a waste of a drive.


Hours for Sunday are 4-10PM

----------


## Pete

Not a very good pic, but this was just taken at Kd's -- that's Kendrick Perkins (he's the tall one):

----------


## betts

I tried to get a reservation there to take my boys over Christmas and couldn't until January.  Ah well, I'm glad its busy.

----------


## Pete

^

Wow, that's a good sign.

I bet you could still go into the bar without reservations.

----------


## Bellaboo

> ^
> 
> Wow, that's a good sign.
> 
> I bet you could still go into the bar without reservations.


It's not that it's booked full until January. They are not taking reservations until January 1. I went last friday night, got there 15 minutes before they opened and got right in. It did fill up fast though, was probably 100 people in line by 4:00 o'clock.

----------


## betts

> It's not that it's booked full until January. They are not taking reservations until January 1. I went last friday night, got there 15 minutes before they opened and got right in. It did fill up fast though, was probably 100 people in line by 4:00 o'clock.


Ah, thanks!

----------


## Teo9969

Here's the menu:

The Starters TV Clips: A tour of Kevin Durant?s restaurant menu  The Starters | NBA.com

----------


## Bellaboo

> Here's the menu:
> 
> The Starters TV Clips: A tour of Kevin Durant?s restaurant menu  The Starters | NBA.com


Teo,
I know you know that's all just for fun from Starters...

----------


## dankrutka

Ha ha! I love The Starters. Great show.

----------


## Teo9969

> Teo,
> I know you know that's all just for fun from Starters...


Yeah..but it's funnier not to tell everyone up front.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Yeah..but it's funnier not to tell everyone up front.


You'd think...

----------


## skanaly

Went there on Wednesday with some friends...I must say there meatloaf and potatoes are amazing! The staff is also really cool and its just a great atmosphere! Def going back!

----------


## Steve

What's the best item on the menu?

----------


## soonerguru

Collared greens were scrumptious.

----------


## Bellaboo

> What's the best item on the menu?


Chicken fry is huge and the same as Charlestons. The people next to us had a wedge salad and shrimp cocktail and it looked great.

I had the honey chicken and it was okay, good but different. Wife had the meatloaf. Is was okay, but hers is much better.

----------


## Sonny_Crockett

What kind of beer do they serve? Please more variety than Bud/Bud Light/Miller Lite/Coors Light!!

----------


## dankrutka

Went there for the first time last night. Pretty impressed overall. The place was packed. Oh, and they serve F5, but I think that's the only local brew.

----------


## GoOKC1991

Just ate there. Had the honey fried chicken with green beans and Mac and Cheese. Absolutely delicious! Some of the best food I've had and one of the best restaurants I've ever been too.

----------


## Pete



----------


## Dustin

Met some family here on Saturday.   We sat at the bar and the bartender was really good.  I cant remember his name but he was the only male working the bar.  We ordered the quiche, shrimp and grits, chicken salad, and the chicken fried steak.  All were really good except for the quiche which was a little burnt

----------


## Sonny_Crockett

Just a quick question to those who have been to KD's:

1. If you just want to sit at the bar and have a few drinks before a Thunder game or whatever can you or do you have to wait to be seated at the bar?

2. What kind of beer do they have and do they have more variety than the crappy Bud/Bud Light/Miller Lite/Coors Light crap?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Just a quick question to those who have been to KD's:
> 
> 1. If you just want to sit at the bar and have a few drinks before a Thunder game or whatever can you or do you have to wait to be seated at the bar?
> 
> 2. What kind of beer do they have and do they have more variety than the crappy Bud/Bud Light/Miller Lite/Coors Light crap?


1. While I have not been, I've been told that if that is what you want to do then you can do that.

2.  IDK, but I bet they have quite this list ala Wes Welkers since that is also the Hal Smith Group and they carry domestic, imports & locals.

----------


## soonerguru

> Just a quick question to those who have been to KD's:
> 
> 1. If you just want to sit at the bar and have a few drinks before a Thunder game or whatever can you or do you have to wait to be seated at the bar?
> 
> 2. What kind of beer do they have and do they have more variety than the crappy Bud/Bud Light/Miller Lite/Coors Light crap?


They have good beers, including F5. Haven't been there on a Thunder game night but went right after it opened and had no problem finding a seat at the bar.

----------


## Dustin

> Just a quick question to those who have been to KD's:
> 
> 1. If you just want to sit at the bar and have a few drinks before a Thunder game or whatever can you or do you have to wait to be seated at the bar?


You don't need a reservation to sit at the bar.  Just walk up and take a seat.

----------


## Sonny_Crockett

How expensive are they on drinks?

----------


## John Knight

> How expensive are they on drinks?


I am not sure regarding cocktails, but a large 23oz Coop F5 is only $7.00. Pretty good deal if you ask me!

----------


## Sonny_Crockett

Went there last night. Overrated!! There are much better places to eat/drink in Bricktown.

Plus the people who work at KD's are stuck up A**holes!!

----------


## Urbanized

So...bartender wouldn't give you her phone number?

----------


## Urbanized

Made you wear a shirt when dining?

----------


## Urbanized

Offered to sell you wine by the bottle?

----------


## Sonny_Crockett

> So...bartender wouldn't give you her phone number?


I had a guy bartender. He was a P.O.S. The other bartenders were just stuck up bia bias. Plus no one welcomed me when I walked in (sounds like LifeChurch??).

There are other and better places/bars in Bricktown. The people that were working there that night, To Hell with 'em.

----------


## Urbanized

Just giving you a hard time. Every place can have a bad night, for sure.

----------


## bucktalk

Ate at KD's this evening. First time. Atmopshere/mood: 9.5  Service: 9  Food quality: 8.5
Overall - pretty nice.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I had a guy bartender. He was a P.O.S. The other bartenders were just stuck up bia bias.* Plus no one welcomed me when I walked in* (sounds like LifeChurch??).
> 
> There are other and better places/bars in Bricktown. The people that were working there that night, To Hell with 'em.


When we went we were greeted by 3 different people...not sure what to think about this.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> When we went we were greeted by 3 different people...not sure what to think about this.


I think it's safe to say a lot of people are way to quick to judge new restaurants. It takes a while to work out kinks, people need to chill out. I really hope Sonny_Crockett's life wasn't ruined by his dinner there, sounds like it was a really negative, life altering experience that he may not recover from.

----------


## betts

> Ate at KD's this evening. First time. Atmopshere/mood: 9.5  Service: 9  Food quality: 8.5
> Overall - pretty nice.


I ate there Sunday and would pretty much agree with this. We didn't have a chance to try the ribs, which the waitress said is their best dish, because they were out.

----------


## SoonerFP

> I ate there Sunday and would pretty much agree with this. We didn't have a chance to try the ribs, which the waitress said is their best dish, because they were out.


That would follow then that their ribs are truly popular if they ran out!  Hoping to take my wife sometime soon.  Sounds great!

----------


## Sonny_Crockett

The stupid bartender didn't even thank me or said goodbye. He can go straight to hell. Same with the other morons who just eye balled me and didn't say anything. No hospitality at all but there's better places to eat/drink in Bricktown.

----------


## mcca7596

Were you dressed in a very unusual manner? Give us some more context to what happened.

----------


## PWitty

> The stupid bartender didn't even thank me or said goodbye. He can go straight to hell. Same with the other morons who just eye balled me and didn't say anything. No hospitality at all but there's better places to eat/drink in Bricktown.


I'm going to assume you didn't say anything to them either from what you've said. They probably thought the same thing about you!  :Smiley122:

----------


## Ginkasa

> The stupid bartender didn't even thank me or said goodbye. He can go straight to hell. Same with the other morons who just eye balled me and didn't say anything. No hospitality at all but there's better places to eat/drink in Bricktown.


Testimonials like this tend to say more about the customer than the business, especially since you haven't provided any details - only personal insults. There may have been an issue, but it sounds like you're blowing it way out of proportion, at least.

----------


## shawnw

I know the bricktown twitter recently posted a nice pic of the patio, but just to get an idea of how much patio we're not getting...

----------


## Urbanized



----------


## HangryHippo

> I know the bricktown twitter recently posted a nice pic of the patio, but just to get an idea of how much patio we're not getting...


When you compare what Hogan has managed to do with that portion of the canal and what San Antonio has with the Riverwalk, we're not even in the ballpark.  Hell, we're not even playing the same game.

----------


## RodH

You must remember that San Antonio has more than a sixty year head start.  The Riverwalk has evolved over time and is still evolving.  I expect the Bricktown canal to do the same.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> I know the bricktown twitter recently posted a nice pic of the patio, but just to get an idea of how much patio we're not getting...


Lesser Bricktown continues to to disappoint.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Ok, lower Bricktown sucks. That is fine. Just accept that it will be this way for awhile. Here in lies the beauty: down the road, we can tear it down and/or reconstruct it to make it 1000x better than the monstrosity that it is.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I know the bricktown twitter recently posted a nice pic of the patio, but just to get an idea of how much patio we're not getting...


I would bet that the reason it doesn't go all the way accross is because the VIP section start about halfway accross from the middle of the building to the West. Don't think they want a patio outside of it...?

----------


## warreng88

> I would bet that the reason it doesn't go all the way accross is because the VIP section start about halfway accross from the middle of the building to the West. Don't think they want a patio outside of it...?


I wish they would have thought of a seperate smaller patio for VIPs only. That would have been cool.

----------


## shawnw

> I would bet that the reason it doesn't go all the way accross is because the VIP section start about halfway accross from the middle of the building to the West. Don't think they want a patio outside of it...?


Valid point I had not considered. However that also validates some design issues...

----------


## TheTravellers

Unimpressed and disappointed.  Went there Sat at 2:30, was told there'd be a 45-60 minute wait, but we could sit in the bar area immediately since they had a few tables free.  Took 10 minutes for a bartender/server to bring menus (first and second bad things - bartenders do not need to also be servers, and it shouldn't take 10 minutes to get menus), she brought out a Guinness draft and slopped it all over the table, it hadn't finished settling yet, took her another 7-8 minutes to come back and ask for our order.  Appetizers took 20 minutes to come out.  Ordered fried green tomatoes (good), soul rolls (too much rice and the wrapping fell apart, tasted OK, though), honey chicken (standard fried chicken drizzled with honey, green beans that tasted barely better than coming out of a can, and mac & cheese that was fairly decent), smothered pork chop (standard tasting, mashed potatoes that were also standard tasting, and black-eyed peas that were the best thing we had all night).  Went to the restroom and there were puddles all around the floor of the urinal.  Didn't affect us directly, but wife said the "bartenders" (all young women when we went) had a bunch of the same drinks all lined up with varying amounts of alcohol in them and they were evening them up (badly) by pouring alcohol from one glass to another.  She also said that our "bartender" pulled one beer away from the tap way before she turned the tap off, losing quite a bit of beer in the process.  They honestly need to hire servers for the bar (or move the "bartenders" to servers and hire real bartenders), service was pathetic in the bar area.

Manager happened to come by and ask how things were, told him everything, he comp-ed our appetizers, said restrooms were supposed to be cleaned every 20 minutes (I checked again when we left, 20 minutes later, they still hadn't been cleaned, which would make it about 40+ minutes since they were cleaned), appetizers should be out in 10 minutes, not 20, he had worked at Charleston's before, so he knew how a restaurant should be run, maybe things will change, but we're going back once more to try different menu items, and make a reservation and sit in the restaurant area, but probably not going back after that.  Hal Smith Group/KD won't care, though, since there's way more than enough folks that accept mediocre service and food to make them both way richer without worrying about the food snobs like us...

----------


## shawnw

Just to balance things out... we had reservations (for 6) on 1/25 (with tickets to the Thunder game after). We were seated immediately, and they accommodated the fact that we came with 7 instead of 6. The kids (3 under 12) were all super hungry, so they ordered from the kids menu right away while they adults reviewed the menus. The kids received their food not long after the adults ordered, and the adults didn't wait all that much longer for their food. Everybody enjoyed their food, the kids (young basketball fans) had a blast, and we made it to the game with plenty of time to spare.

----------


## ljbab728

> about 40+ minutes since they were cleaned),  but we're going back once more to try different menu items, and make a reservation and sit in the restaurant area, but probably not going back after that.  Hal Smith Group/KD won't care, though, since there's way more than enough folks that accept mediocre service and food to make them both way richer without worrying about the food snobs like us...


Just curious, why would you go back to try it again if you're probably not going back after that?  It sounds like you've made up your mind no matter what happens.

----------


## TheTravellers

There are a couple of menu items we were interested in that we didn't get to eat.  We're not really trying it again to see if it gets better so we might choose to go there regularly, we just want to try the things we didn't get to and to sit in the restaurant area.  Then we'll probably forget about it (small chance, very small, that they will have improved dramatically and we decide to go back after that, it sometimes happens) and go on to the next restaurant we haven't eaten at yet to see how they stack up...

----------


## dankrutka

> There are a couple of menu items we were interested in that we didn't get to eat.  We're not really trying it again to see if it gets better so we might choose to go there regularly, we just want to try the things we didn't get to and to sit in the restaurant area.  Then we'll probably forget about it (small chance, very small, that they will have improved dramatically and we decide to go back after that, it sometimes happens) and go on to the next restaurant we haven't eaten at yet to see how they stack up...


Sounds like a blast! Can I join in on your impending disappointment?  :Wink:

----------


## TheTravellers

> Sounds like a blast! Can I join in on your impending disappointment?


Anytime, it happens fairly often in restaurants here in OKC, you'd have plenty of chances...  Our expectations are now set for KD's, though, so we won't be *as* disappointed.   :Smiley122:  To be fair, though, some restaurants here have their **** together and we end up being repeat customers (Ludivine; Irma's; Museum Cafe used to, but not so much last time we ate there; Pearl's, but not Crabtown; Hideaway; Saii; Shartel Cafe; Kitchen 324; Cafe do Brasil; Jimmy's Egg on May & Memorial; .....).

----------


## kevinpate

Hate to hear Crabtown is on the disappointment list for you.  Been a while since we went in, but always has decent service and a yummy meal when we have been there.

----------


## TheTravellers

> Hate to hear Crabtown is on the disappointment list for you.  Been a while since we went in, but always has decent service and a yummy meal when we have been there.


Went there probably 2 years ago.  Krabby Balls weren't very special, much rather have Rococo's crab cakes (and yeah, I know they can't even really be compared, but the Krabby Balls were just kind of.......there and I actually wonder if they have real crab meat in them since they're spelled with a K), crawfish etoufee wasn't even close to the quality you get at Pearl's (taste and texture and the way they served it), can't remember what my wife ordered, but she was also less than impressed.  Had some weirdness ordering wine, think it was due to a very limited selection (and yeah, I know that their target audience probably isn't full of wine-drinkers).  Not a horrible experience, just an average one and average restaurant meals are a necessity sometimes, but mostly, life's too short for them...

----------


## Richard at Remax

Since it seems like your taste buds are beyond superior of the average mans, why even go out? why not just make your own meals at home that you know you will like?

----------


## TheTravellers

> Since it seems like your taste buds are beyond superior of the average mans, why even go out? why not just make your own meals at home that you know you will like?


Because I don't have a restaurant-quality kitchen in my house.  Why does it bother you that I like good food and don't like bad food?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

There has been quite a bit of negative reviews on this place. I still haven't tried it and plan on doing so and will give my honest opinion when I do. I really hope it is great though!

----------


## Richard at Remax

It bothers me when someone admits themselves a food snob and have very high expectations of restaurants and they talk down on the vast majority of restaurants they try (or go back and try again knowing their mind wont change). Seems like a waste of time and money for you. But hey, you are making those guys way richer so props to them.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Why does it bother you that I like good food and don't like bad food?


Qu'ils mangent du gateau, n'est-ce-pas?

----------


## TheTravellers

> It bothers me when someone admits themselves a food snob and have very high expectations of restaurants and they talk down on the vast majority of restaurants they try (or go back and try again knowing their mind wont change). Seems like a waste of time and money for you. But hey, you are making those guys way richer so props to them.


We didn't have "very high" expectations, we had normal expectations (which are waiting less than 5 (not 10) minutes to get a menu, 10 (not 20) minutes to get our appetizers, no puddles of urine on the restroom floor, etc.).  We are going back to Kd's for a very specific reason, not because we expect them or our minds to change (although if everything is stellar, we *might* go back after that, but I don't expect that to happen).  To be perfectly honest, we went because my wife wanted to, I had no desire to even try it.  As far as going back to a place we were disappointed in - we are not so dull as to patronize the same restaurants again and again and again and again, we like trying new places and foods, hence going to a restaurant we haven't been to so we can see what it's like and maybe more times if it's good and maybe not again after that if they're not good.  Sometimes, however, the first visit is pretty much all we need to figure out if it's worth a shot again.

----------


## Stew

> Because I don't have a restaurant-quality kitchen in my house.  Why does it bother you that I like good food and don't like bad food?


I too don't like bad food.

----------


## TheBishop

I went recently on a Thursday just before 5. I didn't have reservations and didn't wait at all. I ate with three other adults and two children. I had no expectations. I was promptly brought a menu (that lights up). I ordered the wings with buffalo sauce as an appetizer. The sauce was perfect. I ordered the meatloaf. It came with bacon green beans and mashed potatoes. Everything was excellent. It was the perfect southern style dish that tasted like grandma's home cooking.  I sampled all my family's plates. Bacon wrapped shrimp and cheese grits melted in my mouth, red beans and rice with chicken was perfectly flavored, and the country fried steak (half the plate), was a big southern boys dream. I didn't dare eat dessert but we ordered anyways. The cobbler and ice cream was the perfect ending. The bathrooms were nice and clean.  My wife and I can't wait to go back again.

----------


## Mel

> Qu'ils mangent du gateau, n'est-ce-pas?


hors de l des ttes

----------


## TheTravellers

> Qu'ils mangent du gateau, n'est-ce-pas?


Ou la patate douce tarte.

----------


## TheTravellers

> I went recently on a Thursday just before 5. I didn't have reservations and didn't wait at all. I ate with three other adults and two children. I had no expectations. I was promptly brought a menu (that lights up). I ordered the wings with buffalo sauce as an appetizer. The sauce was perfect. I ordered the meatloaf. It came with bacon green beans and mashed potatoes. Everything was excellent. It was the perfect southern style dish that tasted like grandma's home cooking.  I sampled all my family's plates. Bacon wrapped shrimp and cheese grits melted in my mouth, red beans and rice with chicken was perfectly flavored, and the country fried steak (half the plate), was a big southern boys dream. I didn't dare eat dessert but we ordered anyways. The cobbler and ice cream was the perfect ending. The bathrooms were nice and clean.  My wife and I can't wait to go back again.


One of the hallmarks of a good restaurant is consistency.  Kd's just ain't there quite yet, but glad your experience was better than mine...

----------


## warreng88

Indice m'en veuillez

----------


## catcherinthewry

I apologize for turning this into a bilingual thread.  My only intention was to compare Travellers' snobbery to that of Marie Antoinette. Point being, no one likes a snob.

----------


## TheTravellers

> I apologize for turning this into a bilingual thread.  My only intention was to compare Travellers' snobbery to that of Marie Antoinette. Point being, no one likes a snob.


Well, since my husband has dragged me into this, I must respond. The fried green tomatoes were fabulous, as were the black-eyed peas and mashed potatoes. The bar area is very cool. But it seems to me that if you are going to offer full restaurant service in the bar area, it shouldn't be the bartender's job to take food orders, seemingly as an afterthought. I almost felt sorry for those girls, the way they were running around (not too sorry because I was hungry). Why not have a waitress? 

As for the snob part, we paid a lot to each at Kd's, and tipped appropriately. It is not unreasonable to expect to get our money's worth. Thanks for the attempted French lessons, but I don't think Marie Antoinette ever worried about getting her money's worth!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## TheTravellers

> I apologize for turning this into a bilingual thread.  My only intention was to compare Travellers' snobbery to that of Marie Antoinette. Point being, no one likes a snob.


For decades, I have never cared if anyone likes me or not.

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## catcherinthewry

> For decades, I have never cared if anyone likes me or not.


Quelle surprise!






Apologies for going bilingual again.

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## OKC4me

Wife and I tried to eat there last week after a thunder game. It was about 10:15pm, and they told us they weren't seating anybody else to eat, but we could order a drink from the bar if we could find a seat. Of course, we couldn't find a seat. We left, and ate at Toby Keith's right next door.
By the way, we saw lots of empty tables at KD's, left side of bar. Kind of confused why we couldn't eat, but oh well. Kind of lame if you ask me.

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## ljbab728

> Wife and I tried to eat there last week after a thunder game. It was about 10:15pm, and they told us they weren't seating anybody else to eat, but we could order a drink from the bar if we could find a seat. Of course, we couldn't find a seat. We left, and ate at Toby Keith's right next door.
> By the way, we saw lots of empty tables at KD's, left side of bar. Kind of confused why we couldn't eat, but oh well. Kind of lame if you ask me.


I'm guessing that the kitchen had already closed or was in the process of closing.

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## kevinpate

> I'm guessing that the kitchen had already closed or was in the process of closing.


Probably, though if ever an eatery was one that oughta stay open later hours to cater to b ball fans on game nights, one would think this should be it.

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## Mel

I can't eat out at a fancy joint like this very often. I'm hanging on to my money until the bugs get worked out at this place.

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## ljbab728

> Probably, though if ever an eatery was one that oughta stay open later hours to cater to b ball fans on game nights, one would think this should be it.


Can't argue with that.

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## Jeepnokc

My anniversary is Saturday and my bride of almost 17 years vetoed my thought of a nice juicy strip steak at Red Prime because she has been wanting to try KD's.  Managed to swing a Saturday night reservation yesterday so we are heading that way this weekend. Has anyone tried the strip at KD's?  Do they know what they are doing or should I just get the meatloaf and save the steak to be eaten another night at Red Prime?  Is there a decent wine list at KD's?  We are ubering so the vino may flow.

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## OKVision4U

This is a great addition to OKC's menu of eateries !

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## FighttheGoodFight

> My anniversary is Saturday and my bride of almost 17 years vetoed my thought of a nice juicy strip steak at Red Prime because she has been wanting to try KD's.  Managed to swing a Saturday night reservation yesterday so we are heading that way this weekend. Has anyone tried the strip at KD's?  Do they know what they are doing or should I just get the meatloaf and save the steak to be eaten another night at Red Prime?  Is there a decent wine list at KD's?  We are ubering so the vino may flow.


Vetoed a Red Prime steak?!!? NOOOO

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## soonermike81

Does anyone else think Red Prime is over rated?

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## Roger S

> Does anyone else think Red Prime is over rated?


I've only been there for a Christmas party so I don't want to rate them on that and until I get a bad steak at Mahogany..... I'm not sure I want to change prime steakhouses.... Although I did notice recently thet Red Prime offers fried chicken and have considered giving it a try.

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## AP

> Does anyone else think Red Prime is over rated?


Nope. I went last night and nothing about it, IMO, is overrated.

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## Jeepnokc

> Does anyone else think Red Prime is over rated?


I don't and consider it the best steak in OKC hands down.  However, steak is a personal preference.  Dry ages versus wet age, cut of steak, grass fed or corn fed, served with sauce or on hot butter rubbed or just salt and pepper, etc.  I had dinner in Vegas last month at at the Cut steak house in the Palazzo where I got the steak sampler which was 4 ounces each of Nebraska corn fed 35 day dry aged prime and American Wagyu along with 2 oz of true Japanese Wagyu.  I preferred the dry aged prime and thought the Wagyu was not very good and extremely fatty all the way through.  Others would call it buttery and melt in mouth where to me...it was just fatty.  Some people love Ruth Chris which serves their steaks on a hot plate of butter and I think they suck whereas I go out of my way for a strip at Mortons so much that I am on their VIP list.  Red Prime uses the same strips from Allen Brothers in Chicago where Mortons get theirs.  Even though I would rather eat a steak at IHOP than go to Ruth Chris, they own Mitchells Steakhouse in Columbus Ohio and it was outstanding.

OK BBQ Eater likes Mahogany.  Others swear by Mickey Mantles or the Ranch.  They all are very successful and a lot of people like them.  I ate at Mahogany when they opened and was non plussed by it.  Doesn't make Red Prime better...just preference.  I am anxious for the new chophouse to open up.   My standard for steak is that 1) It doesn't need any sauce, butter or seasoning other than a little salt and 2) when you take the first bite, you get a shiver though your body from the wave of flavor that comes out of the first bite.  High standard but I get that when I get a strip at Mortons, Red, Capital Grill, Del Frisco, Pappas, Mitchell's, Bern's in Tampa and will be checking out Peter Lugers in July to see how they match up.

I mentioned Bern's which is a sight to see.  Bern's Steak House is a unique culinary experience   They hand cut the steaks there to order but even more impressive is the wine list and the dessert room upstairs.  They have over 6800 labels and over a 1/2 million bottles of wine.   They serve 200 different wines but the glass with ventages offered from the 70's.  The dessert room upstairs is very cool with over 1000 dessert wines and spirits offered.  We enjoyed a glass of 1827 sherry here.  The bottle was so old, it was hand painted.  If you are near tampa...you need to check this out.

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## FighttheGoodFight

> Does anyone else think Red Prime is over rated?


I believe The Ranch and Red Prime take the best steak in OKC award.

I have only been to Mahogany once and it was all right. I can't judge unless I have it a few more times.

There are better steak places in other states but in Oklahoma I think these are best three.


Cattlemens is terrible and the service was bad the last two times I went to Micky Mantles.

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## Jeepnokc

> I believe The Ranch and Red Prime take the best steak in OKC award.
> 
> I have only been to Mahogany once and it was all right. I can't judge unless I have it a few more times.
> 
> There are better steak places in other states but in Oklahoma I think these are best three.
> 
> 
> Cattlemens is terrible and the service was bad the last two times I went to Micky Mantles.


I have been to the Ranch once and can not honestly remember what I had but I am sure it was a steak.  It wasn't that the meal was not memorable but was with my business partner and we drank a lot of wine before we ever sat down to dinner so I don't remember.  I need to give it another go.

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## Roger S

> I have been to the Ranch once and can not honestly remember what I had but I am sure it was a steak.


I had the unfortunate pleasure of watching an elderly couple dip their prime steaks at The Ranch into a bowl of catsup..... It was hard to control my urge to shout at them "JUST EAT A FREAKING HAMBURGER!!!!!".

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## pickles

> I had the unfortunate pleasure of watching an elderly couple dip their prime steaks at The Ranch into a bowl of catsup..... It was hard to control my urge to shout at them "JUST EAT A FREAKING HAMBURGER!!!!!".


On my last visit, the guy at the next table asked for A-1.

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## soonermike81

> I don't and consider it the best steak in OKC hands down.  However, steak is a personal preference.  Dry ages versus wet age, cut of steak, grass fed or corn fed, served with sauce or on hot butter rubbed or just salt and pepper, etc.  I had dinner in Vegas last month at at the Cut steak house in the Palazzo where I got the steak sampler which was 4 ounces each of Nebraska corn fed 35 day dry aged prime and American Wagyu along with 2 oz of true Japanese Wagyu.  I preferred the dry aged prime and thought the Wagyu was not very good and extremely fatty all the way through.  Others would call it buttery and melt in mouth where to me...it was just fatty.  Some people love Ruth Chris which serves their steaks on a hot plate of butter and I think they suck whereas I go out of my way for a strip at Mortons so much that I am on their VIP list.  Red Prime uses the same strips from Allen Brothers in Chicago where Mortons get theirs.  Even though I would rather eat a steak at IHOP than go to Ruth Chris, they own Mitchells Steakhouse in Columbus Ohio and it was outstanding.
> 
> OK BBQ Eater likes Mahogany.  Others swear by Mickey Mantles or the Ranch.  They all are very successful and a lot of people like them.  I ate at Mahogany when they opened and was non plussed by it.  Doesn't make Red Prime better...just preference.  I am anxious for the new chophouse to open up.   My standard for steak is that 1) It doesn't need any sauce, butter or seasoning other than a little salt and 2) when you take the first bite, you get a shiver though your body from the wave of flavor that comes out of the first bite.  High standard but I get that when I get a strip at Mortons, Red, Capital Grill, Del Frisco, Pappas, Mitchell's, Bern's in Tampa and will be checking out Peter Lugers in July to see how they match up.
> 
> I mentioned Bern's which is a sight to see.  Bern's Steak House is a unique culinary experience   They hand cut the steaks there to order but even more impressive is the wine list and the dessert room upstairs.  They have over 6800 labels and over a 1/2 million bottles of wine.   They serve 200 different wines but the glass with ventages offered from the 70's.  The dessert room upstairs is very cool with over 1000 dessert wines and spirits offered.  We enjoyed a glass of 1827 sherry here.  The bottle was so old, it was hand painted.  If you are near tampa...you need to check this out.


Very well put!  I guess it does become a matter of preference, as I love The Ranch and have also had pretty good experiences at Mickey Mantle's and Mahogany.  I will say that my one and only visit to Red Prime was during restaurant week, so not sure if they provided a lower quality cut of steak.  It wasn't necessarily the flavor of the steak that I was disappointed in, but rather the tenderness.  I felt like my steak was super chewy, definitely not a prime cut.  I will have to try them again during a normal night to see if it was a fluke.

It's funny though that you bring up some of these other national steakhouses.  Out of the ones you named that I have tried, I didn't enjoy Morton's, which might make sense knowing that they get their steaks from the same place as RP.  And I actually love Ruth's Chris and Capital Grille.  I have also eaten Ruth's Chris during restaurant week, and didn't feel like the quality of their steak fell off at all.  By no means am I a steak connoisseur; I just know what I like and what I don't.  I have also eaten at Vic & Anthony's and Fleming's, and thought both places were great.  Vic & Anthony's is probably the best fine steakhouse that I've tried.  Have always wanted to try Peter Luger as well.  Funny though that my only two nice steakhouses that I didn't enjoy were RP and Morton's, so must be a matter of preference.

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## Chadanth

> Does anyone else think Red Prime is over rated?


No

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## Teo9969

> On my last visit, the guy at the next table asked for A-1.


It's so sad to me because so many good toppings or sauces are offered that aren't generic crap you eat with everything else in your daily diet. $3 for Au Poivre, $5 for Fromage, $3 Jalapeos and Onions, or $5 for Truffle Butter, etc. You're already dropping $100+ for the meal, if you must have a sauce, then drop the extra $3 - $5 for something that actually works well with steak and that you can't find at McDonald's. In fact, I generally get sauces as I like multiple flavors.

What's great is when they ask for it when they order…at least at that point, you know who you're working with...

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## Teo9969

> I have been to the Ranch once and can not honestly remember what I had but I am sure it was a steak.  It wasn't that the meal was not memorable but was with my business partner and we drank a lot of wine before we ever sat down to dinner so I don't remember.  *I need to give it another go.*


Just Do It.

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## soonerguru

> I have been to the Ranch once and can not honestly remember what I had but I am sure it was a steak.  It wasn't that the meal was not memorable but was with my business partner and we drank a lot of wine before we ever sat down to dinner so I don't remember.  I need to give it another go.


You should give the Ranch another shot. Their ribeye is the best steak I've had in OKC -- and most chefs I talk to agree it is the standard. Red Prime is very good, too.

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## Will

> I've only been there for a Christmas party so I don't want to rate them on that and until I get a bad steak at Mahogany..... I'm not sure I want to change prime steakhouses.... Although I did notice recently thet Red Prime offers fried chicken and have considered giving it a try.


I have a friend who is a chef, and he was telling me this weekend that their Fried Chicken was the best he's had.

As to it being over rated.  No way.  It's our favorite steakhouse in OKC.

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## Roger S

> I have a friend who is a chef, and he was telling me this weekend that their Fried Chicken was the best he's had.


I was sitting next to one of Red Prime's grill chefs that was getting burgers to go at Nic's Grill the other day and was asking him about it.... Now obviously he's going to be a little biased with his opinion but hearing other good reviews definitely is moving it up my list to go try.

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## Rover

> OK BBQ Eater likes Mahogany.  Others swear by Mickey Mantles or the Ranch.  They all are very successful and a lot of people like them.  I ate at Mahogany when they opened and was non plussed by it.  Doesn't make Red Prime better...just preference.  I am anxious for the new chophouse to open up.   My standard for steak is that 1) It doesn't need any sauce, butter or seasoning other than a little salt and 2) when you take the first bite, you get a shiver though your body from the wave of flavor that comes out of the first bite.  High standard but I get that when I get a strip at Mortons, Red, Capital Grill, Del Frisco, Pappas, Mitchell's, Bern's in Tampa and will be checking out Peter Lugers in July to see how they match up.
> 
> I mentioned Bern's which is a sight to see.  Bern's Steak House is a unique culinary experience   They hand cut the steaks there to order but even more impressive is the wine list and the dessert room upstairs.  They have over 6800 labels and over a 1/2 million bottles of wine.   They serve 200 different wines but the glass with ventages offered from the 70's.  The dessert room upstairs is very cool with over 1000 dessert wines and spirits offered.  We enjoyed a glass of 1827 sherry here.  The bottle was so old, it was hand painted.  If you are near tampa...you need to check this out.


Wow.  You just nailed practically all my favorites.  I do business in Columbus and love Mitchell's - downtown.  BTW, Berns has the largest restaurant wine collection in the world.  Hopefully you got a tour of the main wine cellar from which they brought you the sherry - it's a treat and they will take you through it.  I would also add Lord Fletchers in Rancho Mirage (Prime Rib).   Based on your list, you will LOVE Peter Lugers...assume you are going to the one in Brooklyn.  It's legendary.  You might also enjoy Gallaghers in NYC while you are there.

By the way, the original Capital Grille in Providence is still the best IMHO.

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## Jeepnokc

We did tour the cellar and was very impressive.  Steak was excellent.  I have not tried Vic and Anthonys.  I tried a place in Boston called Abe and Louies that was decent.  We are planning on the lugers in Brooklyn.  My business partner is in NY and has reservations for tomorrow and is going to make our July reservations while he is there.

I do plan on going and trying Ranch while sober so I can give it a fair try.  I don't remember it being bad...I just don't remember.  (we had a lot of wine as we were celebrating).  As far as Red's fried chicken, I have had it and it is good fried chicken.  We get that for the kids to share when we go as they don't have a portion/value kid options

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## Teo9969

Mahogany, Boulevard, Ranch and Red all have 80%+ ratings on Urban Spoon. Mickey's is at 79% and nobody cares about Opus (like 62%).

KD's is at 73%. For comparison sake, Cheever's has an 89% and Guernsey an 88%

I think Urban Spoon tends to be correct for the AVERAGE experience. That being said, you can have a horrible meal at a great restaurant and a great meal at a terrible restaurant.

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## Chadanth

Not sure why this thread turned so much to a steakhouse comparison. That said, I love that we have very good and diverse options for steaks, from red, being more trendy, to the ranch, to mickey mantles. 

Kd's is more a casual restaurant with decent food, at a reasonable price, and is a pretty cool place to take people before a home game. Is it the best meal in town? No. Is it fun and very convenient, absolutely! 

We have options, enjoy them.

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## Teo9969

I don't think anything was meant to be a disparagement of KD's, somebody brought up steak and…well…we're in OKC…what do you expect?

I really would like to get to KD's pretty quickly when I get back, but the places are piling up. Who wants to take me?!

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## Chadanth

> I don't think anything was meant to be a disparagement of KD's, somebody brought up steak and…well…we're in OKC…what do you expect?
> 
> I really would like to get to KD's pretty quickly when I get back, but the places are piling up. Who wants to take me?!


Fair enough. I'm sure the steak at KDs is ok, but not my first choice. We do take out of town guests to KDs for the overall experience and the value, though. It works.

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## Roger S

> Not sure why this thread turned so much to a steakhouse comparison. That said, I love that we have very good and diverse options for steaks, from red, being more trendy, to the ranch, to mickey mantles.


Refer to post 933 and you will see how we derailed this train like Jesse James.

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## Jeepnokc

Went last night for dinner.  Here is my rundown of our experience.  Arrived about 640 for 7 pm reservation and they were absolutely packed.  Checked in and was told they were behind even on reservations but would text us when table ready.  We were able to find 2 seats at the bar.  The male bartender was on top of it and suggested we eat at bar.  Drinks prices were good and the thundertini my wife had was excellent.  Decided not to eat at the bar and we were buzzed for our table right at 7.  My wife went and was seated while I paid the bar tab.

Found my wife and then we waited, and waited, and waited.  It was 8-10 minutes later that our waitress finally appeared to see if we wanted drinks or water.  This was after I had flagged down someone else to see if we had a server.  We were ready to order at this point so we ordered drinks and dinner.  For appetizer, we order the lemon pepper parmesan wings and a cup of gumbo.  It took a long time for the items to come (to the point we were concerned that it was all going to come out at once but didn't say anything).  The food arrived and the wings were excellent.  Great flavor, juicy inside and crisp on the outside.  The gumbo was full of goodies and tasted great,  Not a very dark Roux but great taste.

For dinner, my wife ordered the smothered porkchop and I ordered the strip (medium) off the baller menu with a side of mac and cheese and fried okra.  Dinner arrives and upon being asked to cut into the meat, it is well done with absolutely no pink inside whatsoever.  They take it back and I told the missus not to wait on me.  The porkchop was cooked right and the gravy had a good flavor.  The gravy was on the thick side and my wife wished they had added a little more to really smother it.  My wife tried to eat very slow but still finished her meal before my steak ever came out.  They definitely were not rushing my redo.  We finally got our server's attention and told her at this point, really didn't want the steak as it was taking so long.  She said it was just about out and let her check on it.  Shortly thereafter, the manager (who had been standing at Shaq's table during this entire time) brings my steak over and asks me to check it.  Then he asks my wife what she ordered so he could check on it.  He had no clue that my steak was a reorder and that she had already eaten at that point.

The steak quality was ok but it was completely drenched in the creole butter which took away from it.  I had been told shortly after Mahogany opened that Hal Smith gets their steaks all from the same place and that the steak at Mahogany is the same steak you get at Lakeside and other Hal Smith Concepts.  I was told this from one of the management staff that works for Hal Smith.  After eating at Mahogany the one time and eating this steak at KD's from the Baller menu, it appears to be so at least when it comes to strip steaks.  The okra was frozen okra put in the fryer but was hot and crispy.  The mac and cheese was lukewarm to cold and tasted like macaroni thrown in with a processed cheese sauce. 

The price of the steak on the baller menu was $52 and that includes two side.  They did comp my steak without me asking but when the check came, the comp'd amount was $44.  I am guessing they literally comp'd _just the steak_ as sides were $4 each on the menu and mine came with two sides included in the $52. so they didn't comp those maybe?

As mentioned in other posts, service was horrible at the table.  Server disappeared for long periods of time.  Not sure if their policy is to have runners run the food but none of our food was ever delivered by the server.  I think this may be luck of the draw as the server in the next section appeared to be doing a great job with his tables and actually refilled our water and did some light prebussing of barware as he would walk by our section.  He also ran his own food.    

It would be nice to have a little better homemade sides and raise the price from $4.00 to $6.00 for the sides.  Make the mac and cheese with real cheese and skillet fry the okra like they do in the south.

Overall, we will go back as I want to try the meatloaf and the fried chicken and the missus wants to try the shrimp and grits. We will go on a week night and see if that helps service.   I would not recommend getting a steak here.  This is basically another Hal Smith restaurant where it is a cool casual atmosphere with some highlights on the menu but backed up by the corporate approach to feed the masses.

edit... Had afterdinner drinks at Red Pin.  The red grapefruit mojito is excellent and worth a visit to try one.

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## catch22

> I don't think anything was meant to be a disparagement of KD's, somebody brought up steak and…well…we're in OKC…what do you expect?
> 
> I really would like to get to KD's pretty quickly when I get back, but the places are piling up. Who wants to take me?!


They definitely are. I've been pretty busy with work lately, and haven't been able to really go out at night for the past 3-4 months. So much has changed just in that last 3-4 months, I feel when I finally get some time to start going out again, I won't have enough money to try all the new places. Amazing growth we are seeing!

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## Pete

Thanks for the detailed review, jeep.

That type of service and food quality is really unacceptable, comp or not.  No way to get an evening back, especially a special occasion.

But, they certainly seem to be doing a great business.

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## pickles

Finding personnel to carry out a high quality concept seems to be an increasingly major challenge for new restaurants in Oklahoma City.  Talent seems to be spread pretty thin - both kitchen staff and front of house.

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## Pete

> Finding personnel to carry out a high quality concept seems to be an increasingly major challenge for new restaurants in Oklahoma City.  Talent seems to be spread pretty thin - both kitchen staff and front of house.


I've made this point several times because it simply would have to be a huge challenge.

There has been an absolute avalanche of new, locally-run restaurants, bars and hotels in just the last two years.  Couple that with nation-leading employment rates and you just have to know that finding good people to do these jobs has got to be a struggle.

The chains have a bit of an advantage in that they have a whole management team and training programs in place.  Plus, they can easily move at least managers in from other markets.


This is going to get worse before it gets better as there are still tons of restaurants, bars and hotels in the queue and the pace of expansion only seems to be increasing.

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## Urbanized

I've had a ridiculously difficult time hiring qualified service industry type folks for at least the past two years. Very tough market. And I'm sure in the food industry it's worse do to the nearly daily emergence of new places. That said, HSRG has many of the advantages of chains when it comes to corporate structure and trainers.

I happened to accompany a Brazilian television crew last night during the taping of a travel program (they are following Route 66), and i took them by KD's at one point right around dinner time. There was a line out the door. I think they have been experiencing some overwhelming business, which is probably contributing to spotty service at times when it does happen. On the times when I have been there, service has been of a pretty high quality, though I don't doubt some occasional let downs due to volume.

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## Pete

One other trend...

Hal Smith and some others are starting to lose managers and other staff to their own start-ups.

This is the case at Broadway 10 and Sidecar and I know there are a bunch of other examples I can't think of right now.


Seems like there is a very strong trend towards younger people wanting to do it themselves as soon as they can.  The advent of food trucks and various festivals allows for an intermediate step; same can be said of retail via pop-up shops.  But it sure helps when you get experience from someplace like HSRG, A Good Egg, Interurban, Deep Fork, etc.

In fact, look at what is happening on 10th:  McNellie's, Fassler Hall and Dust Bowl (Elliott Nelson), Ludivine's new concept (Stranger & Johnson), Bleu Garten (Hunter Wheat), Sara Kate Shoppe (Sara Kate Huff), Women's Clothing at 1100 N. Broadway (Ashley Liddell), Broadway 10 & Sidecar (Hal Smith managers).   All of these people are in their 20's or early 30's.

Same can be said of many of the places in the Plaza.

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## kevinpate

Jeep's review of KD's was as I feared it might be. There have been enough such reviews, not only of KD's but other new places as well, that I've lost all interest in exploring new places until they have several months to  work things out.  

And some, not even then.  One example.  I want to try Vast, if solely for the view, but the price points are not consistent with accepting a low level of service.  Coming into OKC primarily to have drinks with a view, when a return trip down 35 is necessary afterwards ... not a good plan.

And sadly, it is not just the new places, and it is not just OKC.  Chain or indie, nice eatery or fast food, the quality of service today is in a downward spiral as often as not. In Norman, except for T Bell of all places, if we do take out we don't leave the parking lot without emptying and repacking the sacks or checking the containers.  It's long been an issue that a correct order is an exception, not the general rule it once was. Most table service down here is still acceptable, though some just barely so.  As a result, we're eating more and more as time goes forward.

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## Teo9969

> Jeep's review of KD's was as I feared it might be. There have been enough such reviews, not only of KD's but other new places as well, that I've lost all interest in exploring new places until they have several months to  work things out.  
> 
> And some, not even then.  One example.  I want to try Vast, if solely for the view, but the price points are not consistent with accepting a low level of service.  Coming into OKC primarily to have drinks with a view, when a return trip down 35 is necessary afterwards ... not a good plan.
> 
> And sadly, it is not just the new places, and it is not just OKC.  Chain or indie, nice eatery or fast food, the quality of service today is in a downward spiral as often as not. In Norman, except for T Bell of all places, if we do take out we don't leave the parking lot without emptying and repacking the sacks or checking the containers.  It's long been an issue that a correct order is an exception, not the general rule it once was. Most table service down here is still acceptable, though some just barely so.  As a result, we're eating more and more as time goes forward.


Ironically, it's the places that are being opened by local operators that are having the most success with opening at a high quality. Guernsey Park and Kitchen No. 324 and Urban Johnnie are all great examples of the opposite of your concern. These places all opened fantastically. The more corporate places are the ones who seem to be struggling, in spite of the fact that they have corporate manuals, training, and standards that should help things to run smoother.

That's not a hard and fast rule, and there's certainly nothing wrong with waiting, but plenty of places are doing great as soon as they open.

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## kevinpate

I completely agree about Kitchen 324. That shop is a shining example of how to consistently do things right. Whatever team tuck does to train their folk, a bunch of other eateries out there ought to be begging them to operate a training academy, and pay well for the opportunity.

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## soonerguru

I find the service at HSRG joints to be phony and annoying. Multiple server types buzz around you and ask how you're doing, but it you express any displeasure, they just get this blank stare. They really don't care, honestly. It's just this robotic style of communication. 

I sincerely hope we get more Good Egg type establishments and fewer HSRG type places. The difference in food quality and genuinely good service is stark.

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## Paseofreak

I would submit to you that the difference between AGEDG and HSG is that selective hiring and transplanting current staff from other concepts results in AGEDG staff actually understanding and caring about the stated goals for the customer experience.  Their people are well educated about their job, they are frequently foodies themselves and when something isn't up to snuff they don't have to consult a procedure manual to fix it.  It's second nature.  Whereas, HSG needs bodies at such a rate that a pulse and passing a cursory background check will do. For these folks, the only incentive is the cash they walk with at the end of the shift.  They are force fed voluminous manuals with rules and penalties that de-personalize the dining experience to a one size fits all repeatable process.  If something goes awry, they are at a total loss because the manual didn't lay out a script or permission to fix it on their own.  I don't mean to pick on HSG at all.  They are just the entity under discussion here.  This is a common phenomenon when great restaurants try to multiply their efforts using a cookie cutter.  Just look at Ruby Tuesday, S&B Burger Joint since expansion beyond the first two, or Chili's.  Quality will almost always suffer when you try to synthesize it through a notebook full of rules.

----------


## coov23

Been to KD's 3 times and haven't had bad service yet. I also get reservations a day, or two, ahead of time. You have to there. Food is great and setting is great.

----------


## shawnw

Same here, 3 times (including Sunday with my sister from NYC), no issues so far.

----------


## dcsooner

Very excited about all the new and unique dining options recently opened and pending in OKC. I am planning a trip back home later this summer and intend to spend a couple days in OKC. Look forward to stopping in to many of the new dining options. Really great to see this taking place :Smile:

----------


## OKC4me

So Shaq was eating there?

----------


## Jeepnokc

> So Shaq was eating there?


Not sure if he ate or just had drinks.  He was sitting behind me in a table at the end of the bar.  Walked by me as I was coming out of restroom and I didn't recognize him at first but definitely noticed him as he was a foot taller than my 6'.   I sent the pic to Pete to post so maybe he will post if he gets chance.

----------


## Pete

From Jeepnokc:

----------


## Joe Kimball

A friend of mine posted a photo on Facebook on the 24th, allegedly of Mr. O'Neal, and he was wearing an identical shirt.

So, even money chance?  :Wink:

----------


## Edgar

> Finding personnel to carry out a high quality concept seems to be an increasingly major challenge for new restaurants in Oklahoma City.  Talent seems to be spread pretty thin - both kitchen staff and front of house.


Paying greater than poverty wages would help. A certain "restaurant group" in OKC said to be one squealing loudest about the horrific possibility municipalities could dodge our chamber of commerce legislature and set their own min. wage. How can you expect to present a multiple star dining experience paying TacoBell wages?

----------


## TheTravellers

> Paying greater than poverty wages would help. A certain "restaurant group" in OKC said to be one squealing loudest about the horrific possibility municipalities could dodge our chamber of commerce legislature and set their own min. wage. How can you expect to present a multiple star dining experience paying TacoBell wages?


Jeez, seriously?  Does their name come to mind if you say "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"?

----------


## Teo9969

> Paying greater than poverty wages would help. A certain "restaurant group" in OKC said to be one squealing loudest about the horrific possibility municipalities could dodge our chamber of commerce legislature and set their own min. wage. How can you expect to present a multiple star dining experience paying TacoBell wages?


Ummm…because every restaurant in this city pays their servers the same wage…$2.13/hour. Doesn't seem to be a problem for a host of restaurants who provide excellent dining experiences.

----------


## RadicalModerate

> Ummm…because every restaurant in this city pays their servers the same wage…$2.13/hour. Doesn't seem to be a problem for a host of restaurants who provide excellent dining experiences.


Perhaps all of the restaurants in the city need to hire a motivational speaker/morale builder like this to bring up the level of basic service to their patrons?


As for me . . . I will continue to hope for the best, enjoy what I get and tip 20%.
(before taxes)

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Ummmbecause every restaurant in this city pays their servers the same wage$2.13/hour. Doesn't seem to be a problem for a host of restaurants who provide excellent dining experiences.


Very true.  Consider also the higher the prices, the more they make as the tip is based on what they sell.   In our case, we were at the table approximately one hour after she made contact with us.  Due to the bad service, I tipped her 15% of the total before the steak was taken off so the tip was approx. $18.00.  Add the 18 to the 2.13 hour equals 20.13 hour.  She probably had to tip out 2.5% of her sales so let's say $3 which leaves her making about $17.50 per hour and I was just one table.   More than likely, she had four tables. Thus, on any busy night, she should be pulling 40-80 per hour.  There may be a slow hour she she comes on and usually there is about an hour of work after the shift cleaning and restocking condiments, etc.  With as busy as KD's is and the higher per person average (PPA) of the checks, every server should be earning far more than the "taco Bell" employee.

----------


## Teo9969

> Very true.  Consider also the higher the prices, the more they make as the tip is based on what they sell.   In our case, we were at the table approximately one hour after she made contact with us.  Due to the bad service, I tipped her 15% of the total before the steak was taken off so the tip was approx. $18.00.  Add the 18 to the 2.13 hour equals 20.13 hour.  She probably had to tip out 2.5% of her sales so let's say $3 which leaves her making about $17.50 per hour and I was just one table.   More than likely, she had four tables. Thus, on any busy night, she should be pulling 40-80 per hour.  There may be a slow hour she she comes on and usually there is about an hour of work after the shift cleaning and restocking condiments, etc.  With as busy as KD's is and the higher per person average (PPA) of the checks, every server should be earning far more than the "taco Bell" employee.


HSRG, I believe, is 3.5% of the post-tax total. $1000 in sales = $35 tip-out.

Generally you don't get much business in the first hour or hour and a half you're in a restaurant, and like you said, there are sometimes slow hours and post-table work to do.

Most places in the city, a regular dinner shift looks something like:

Arrive at 4/4:30
1 or 2 tables between 4:30 and 7
4 to 8 tables between 7 and 9
1 or 2 tables after 9
Close down, and leave around 10:30/11

Sales between $600 and $1000 (including tax), and you tip-out generally 3% on that amount. So if you average x% on the total with tax you make:

15% you walk with $72 to $120
17.5% you walk with $87 to $145
20% you walk with $102 to $170

At most places, best case scenario is highly improbable Sunday through Thursday, but literally, there are 1,000 variable that go into it. Another factor is that when things are "dead", people get cut/sent home super early without any chance to make substantive money, if any at all. 

I'd guess that the average OKC server makes between $10 and $20/hour, but they tend to work only 25 to 35 hours per week.

----------


## Edgar

All taxpayers subsidise the restaurant industries poverty wages, and when a petition drive in OKC to locally raise the min wage looked to be gaining mo a "restaurant group" in OKC threw a fit and got their way with our patsy lege. Do with that info what you wish. Know I will. No more Sun brunches at Lakeside.

----------


## Teo9969

Oh yes…HSRG must have swayed the entire legislature all by themselves.

You're kidding me right? You think HSRG was the only one who made a big deal out of everything?

----------


## kevinpate

Edgar, you appear to be as misinformed on the min. wage legislation preemption as you were the past mayoral race.

Perhaps consider some research from sources other than the ones you have been relying upon?

At best that eatery group would be a small insignificant voice amongst far larger employers.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> HSRG, I believe, is 3.5% of the post-tax total. $1000 in sales = $35 tip-out.
> 
> Generally you don't get much business in the first hour or hour and a half you're in a restaurant, and like you said, there are sometimes slow hours and post-table work to do.
> 
> Most places in the city, a regular dinner shift looks something like:
> 
> Arrive at 4/4:30
> 1 or 2 tables between 4:30 and 7
> 4 to 8 tables between 7 and 9
> ...


I think that is a good average overall but I think it will be higher somewhere like this.  I averaged $12-15 hour twenty years ago waiting tables at Chilis on S. Meridian and our PPA was about $11-12.  Hopefully they have good management that knows how to schedule in so you don't have excessive staff during slow times.

Also, I imagine at KD's they are running 1000-1500 per shift on weekends.

----------


## soonerguru

> Ummm…because every restaurant in this city pays their servers the same wage…$2.13/hour. Doesn't seem to be a problem for a host of restaurants who provide excellent dining experiences.


Actually, there are plenty of restaurants that pay a higher base wage than that.

----------


## Dennis Heaton

Compared to what employees working 60-80 hours per week get paid at some of these stand alone, independently owned convenience stores in OKC/Edmond (not one red cent for overtime), folks working in a restaurant, waiting on others, are doing pretty doggone well.

----------


## RadicalModerate

Pardon my lack of knowledge here, but do several previous posts imply that the actual server/waitperson at a restaurant only gets 3-4% of the 20% tip that you leave?  Or am I completely misreading the interesting information provided by Teo9969?  I know that the cooks and buspersons get a share of the tip (or at least I think they do), but I have to be mis-interpreting what was written because that small of an amount just doesn't seem right at all.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Pardon my lack of knowledge here, but do several previous posts imply that the actual server/waitperson at a restaurant only gets 3-4% of the 20% tip that you leave?  Or am I completely misreading the interesting information provided by Teo9969?  I know that the cooks and buspersons get a share of the tip (or at least I think they do), but I have to be mis-interpreting what was written because that small of an amount just doesn't seem right at all.


The waitstaff will tip out a set percentage of total sales.  It is 2-3.5% depending on location.  This is split with the bartender, hostess, and busser.  So if a waiter has $1000 in sales, he will make $150-200 in tips assuming he is getting 15-20% gratuity.  If the tip out is 3%, he will tip out $30.00 of his tips to be split with the other service personnel leaving the waiter walking with $120-170 in tips (all cash)

----------


## Edgar

I see the hip progressive city of Seattle just voted to increase the min wage to $15/hr to give employees the dignity of working for a living wage- meanwhile voters in municipalities in the great corporate state of Ok couldn't have the chance if they wanted to.

----------


## SoonerDave

> One other trend...
> 
> Hal Smith and some others are starting to lose managers and other staff to their own start-ups.
> 
> This is the case at Broadway 10 and Sidecar and I know there are a bunch of other examples I can't think of right now.
> 
> 
> Seems like there is a very strong trend towards younger people wanting to do it themselves as soon as they can.  The advent of food trucks and various festivals allows for an intermediate step; same can be said of retail via pop-up shops.  But it sure helps when you get experience from someplace like HSRG, A Good Egg, Interurban, Deep Fork, etc.
> 
> ...


Given that the historical failure rate of new restaurants is something, I think, well over 70% (More?), it does give a bit of concern over how many of these places can/will endure for the long haul. Great to have options, great that there are young entrepreneurs willing to take the risk, but seems like there's also a pretty high risk of a lot of empty storefronts in a year or so as these places shake out to the ugly realities of the food biz. Be interesting to see how it works out.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> I see the hip progressive city of Seattle just voted to increase the min wage to $15/hr to give employees the dignity of working for a living wage- meanwhile voters in municipalities in the great corporate state of Ok couldn't have the chance if they wanted to.


Cost of living is higher in Seattle than here.  If you make $3300 month in OKC, you would have to make $4838.94 month for the same level of living in Seattle,

Here are some more comparisons:


Indices Difference

Info

Consumer Prices in Seattle, WA are 28.67% higher than in Oklahoma City, OK 
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Seattle, WA are 46.63% higher than in Oklahoma City, OK 
Rent Prices in Seattle, WA are 92.16% higher than in Oklahoma City, OK 
Restaurant Prices in Seattle, WA are 40.33% higher than in Oklahoma City, OK 
Groceries Prices in Seattle, WA are 23.70% higher than in Oklahoma City, OK 
Local Purchasing Power in Seattle, WA is 1.72% higher than in Oklahoma City, OK 

Source and more great info:

Cost of Living Comparison Between Oklahoma City, OK, United States And Seattle, WA, United States

----------


## RadicalModerate

> The waitstaff will tip out a set percentage of total sales.  It is 2-3.5% depending on location.  This is split with the bartender, hostess, and busser.  So if a waiter has $1000 in sales, he will make $150-200 in tips assuming he is getting 15-20% gratuity.  If the tip out is 3%, he will tip out $30.00 of his tips to be split with the other service personnel leaving the waiter walking with $120-170 in tips (all cash)


Thank you for the clarification there. I guess I had it inside out or backwards or something.
(I guess that mainly it was centered on not understanding what "tip out" meant.)

I have a marginal interest in all of this sort of thing because I'm a hobby cook, a reader of "Kitchen Confidential" (Bourdain), and my coolest sister-in-law is an expert in the Hospitality/Restaurant/Service Industry.  She's been at it long enough to be a "Trainer" at some "upscale" eating places in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area.  She showed me her "Menu/Specials of the Day" notebook once.  It would be as hard to memorize all that as it would be to cook it.  And it changes all the time. =)

----------


## Edgar

> Cost of living is higher in Seattle than here.  If you make $3300 month in OKC, you would have to make $4838.94 month for the same level of living in Seattle,
> 
> Here are some more comparisons:
> 
> 
> Indices Difference
> 
> Info
> 
> ...


The ole cost of living cop out. where would the chamber be without it.  Lots of wiggle room between $7.25 and $15.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> The ole cost of living cop out. where would the chamber be without it.  Lots of wiggle room between $7.25 and $15.


It is amazing how much facts don't matter to you.  If you increase min. wage to 15 then unskilled labor costs more which means your big mac is going to cost more so the end result is still no net gain.

----------


## traxx

> I see the hip progressive city of Seattle just voted to increase the min wage to $15/hr to give employees the dignity of working for a living wage- meanwhile voters in municipalities in the great corporate state of Ok couldn't have the chance if they wanted to.


Some jobs were never meant to be living wage jobs or careers. Such as fast food worker, convenience store employee, grocery store checker etc. For decades, these type of jobs were held by high schoolers. It was always meant to be supplemental income, not a career. Not every job can be a high paying or living wage job. This is not Lake Wobegon,  not all pay can be above average. Econimics dictate that.

----------


## Edgar

The cost of living is low for the sacred job creators as well. That doesn't seem to factor in.

----------


## Edgar

> Some jobs were never meant to be living wage jobs or careers. Such as fast food worker, convenience store employee, grocery store checker etc. For decades, these type of jobs were held by high schoolers. It was always meant to be supplemental income, not a career. Not every job can be a high paying or living wage job. This is not Lake Wobegon,  not all pay can be above average. Econimics dictate that.


bs- the stateless international corproatists like McDonald could pay a living wage and chose not. souless greed

----------


## Teo9969

> The waitstaff will tip out a set percentage of total sales.  It is 2-3.5% depending on location.  This is split with the bartender, hostess, and busser.  So if a waiter has $1000 in sales, he will make $150-200 in tips assuming he is getting 15-20% gratuity.  If the tip out is 3%, he will tip out $30.00 of his tips to be split with the other service personnel leaving the waiter walking with $120-170 in tips (all cash)


A lot of restaurants, especially local ones, are going to a tip-check model where all your credit card tips go on a check that you get every week. They take taxes out of those tip checks that they can't take out of your (nearly guaranteed) $0.00 pay check. 

And as for what people make, it just really depends on so may factors, but I imagine KD's sits between places like Charleston's, Outback, Republic and the Prime Steakhouses, Coach House, etc.

Places that are more casual dining can be pretty rough at times, because they're a lot harder to manage the pacing on the floor. When I was at Outback in college, I had plenty of really bad nights and rarely any absolutely fantastic nights (which at Outback is like $150+). Once you get into the upscale dining, you start making pretty dang good money for what you're doing. I wonder about the money available at KD's because at Mahogany I rarely broke $200, which really shouldn't be very hard over there…but at Mahogany they also have the horrible partner-service model. Blech.

----------


## traxx

> bs- the stateless international corproatists like McDonald could pay a living wage and chose not. souless greed


But it's a low skill job. If you start paying $15-20/hour for the low and no skill jobs then the people who are in the current $15-20/hour mid skill level jobs will demand that they be paid more for their skill levels than a McDonald's employee and it will continue to go up the chain. That is not economically viable. We're not talking about just McDonald's et al, we're talking about the whole interedependant economy as a whole. Nothing can happen in an economy without it affecting something else.

----------


## Bellaboo

> The ole cost of living cop out. where would the chamber be without it.  Lots of wiggle room between $7.25 and $15.


Edgar, Please remove those tarnished colored glasses now !     lol


I know, I know...... everyones against you.

----------


## BrettM2

> bs- the stateless international corproatists like McDonald could pay a living wage and chose not. souless greed


Chamber junta! Chamber junta! CHAMBER JUNTA!!!!

----------


## Edgar

I see middle age men employed at my local Sonic. Dude rides a bike to work.  You can't live proper on min working full time. That's not right in America. We sent all our good jobs overseas. people are having to work fast food, a paper route. You all are cool with subsidizing McDonalds' poverty wages? You know the food really sucks.

----------


## Richard at Remax

These are entry level minimum wage jobs. You aren't supposed to be a millionaire working there. They are short term jobs meant to give you work experience and a small paycheck. and more most inspires them to better themselves employment wise. if someone is 40 years old and is still working at those places, its on the person not the employer.

I am happy mcdonalds, and others, provide those type of jobs. I would rather them be a productive member in society rather than sitting at home collecting unemployment.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> I see middle age men employed at my local Sonic. Dude rides a bike to work.  You can't live proper on min working full time. That's not right in America. We sent all our good jobs overseas. people are having to work fast food, a paper route. You all are cool with subsidizing McDonalds' poverty wages? You know the food really sucks.


When I was in law school, there were late middle age men and women sitting next to me getting an education.  If he is not happy working at Sonic and riding his bike...he can always take the initiative and enroll in vo-tech or college and get some more skills.  Like my daddy would say...pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.  No one owes a person a living.  He is living with the choices he made over the years.  My father was a 10th grade drop out.  Realized when he and mom had a bay on the way that it wasn't going to cut it so went into the military and ended up with a degree and retired an officer.  You live with the choices you make.  There are a lot of very successful people that come from very bad/poor/abusive backgrounds that succeed through drive and determination.

----------


## soonerguru

While I agree with many of the arguments here in spirit, there's no reason why we shouldn't raise the minimum wage. I'm completely supportive of the proposal to raise it to 10.50.

----------


## Teo9969

> While I agree with many of the arguments here in spirit, there's no reason why we shouldn't raise the minimum wage. I'm completely supportive of the proposal to raise it to 10.50.


All this talk is really tertiary to the original (ridiculous) point that was asserted by Edgar (and that he has yet to verify or even make a good case for), which is that somehow a restaurant group (HSRG presumably) threw a hissy fit and got an entire legislature to bend over backward to accommodate what was going on…

I think there's a lot of people on both sides who think raising the minimum-wage at least deserves to be looked at, especially in cities, and it's crap that the State passed the no-municipal minimum statute, but again tertiary to the discussion.

Anyway…Who can tell me about the wine list at KD's?

----------


## Edgar

Really no one had to throw a fit. The chamber people have a red phone to our lege. The bill written overnight and signed by fallin the next day, lickety split.

----------


## BrettM2

> Really no one had to throw a fit. The chamber people have a red phone to our lege. The bill written overnight and signed by fallin the next day, lickety split.


I think you need to see someone about your delusions.  It's just sad.

----------


## kevinpate

Edgar, while I am no fan of the current crop of Legizards, it's almost summer time.  try a big soothing glass of sweet tea and take a break from the kool-aid for a few days.

----------


## Mel

Is the chicken fried steak good there?

----------


## Edgar

> Edgar, while I am no fan of the current crop of Legizards, it's almost summer time.  try a big soothing glass of sweet tea and take a break from the kool-aid for a few days.


It's not just the lege Kevin. Our patsy AG changed the language on Joe Dorman's bill to put tornado shelters in schools because the funding would come from the franchise tax which the chamber has dreams of ending. that pretty much just leaves the little people to pay taxes. Perhaps you need to clean the glasses. we live in a corporate oligarchy.

----------


## Urbanized

I really like the macaroni and cheese.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I really like the macaroni and cheese.


You know, for the life of me, I've never been here. I really need to give it a shot. I'm not the biggest fan of macaroni and cheese, but it seems this place might have some good cajun food, is that right?

----------


## TheTravellers

> You know, for the life of me, I've never been here. I really need to give it a shot. I'm not the biggest fan of macaroni and cheese, but it seems this place might have some good cajun food, is that right?


No.  If you want Cajun, go to Pearl's Graveside (not Crabtown), off the top of my head I don't know of any other good Cajun places here.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> No.  If you want Cajun, go to Pearl's Graveside (not Crabtown), off the top of my head I don't know of any other good Cajun places here.


Bourbon street is pretty decent also

----------


## ctchandler

Plu Pan,
Bayou Grill and Bakery in Edmond on Danforth is really nice.
C. T.


> You know, for the life of me, I've never been here. I really need to give it a shot. I'm not the biggest fan of macaroni and cheese, but it seems this place might have some good cajun food, is that right?

----------


## warreng88

Fried. Chicken. And. Waffles. Don't ask questions, just do it...

----------


## Bellaboo

> No.  If you want Cajun, go to Pearl's Graveside (not Crabtown), off the top of my head I don't know of any other good Cajun places here.


The Big Easy in Yukon is excellent. On 39th just 1 block east of Green Chili Cafe.

----------


## RadicalModerate

I thought this thread was about KD's.
(still . . . somehow . . . Chicken and Waffles sound pretty good . . . wherever . . .)

For me . . . It's a Flat Pork Pie with Coleslaw Deluxo on the side. =)

Uh . . . Mr. Durant . . . do you have a couple of seconds to improve the dining facility with your name written all over it?
Or, at least, your initials . . .

----------


## ctchandler

RM,
Are you going to share the recipe for "Flat Pork Pie" on DIY?
C. T.  


> For me . . . It's a Flat Pork Pie with Coleslaw Deluxo on the side. =)

----------


## TheTravellers

TLO Restaurant Review: KD?s Southern Cuisine :: The Lost Ogle

Sadly, almost exactly mirrors our experience there, but he makes it funnier than I did.  :Big Grin:

----------


## cagoklahoma

I attended a business luncheon earlier in the week and the host said "The steaks we are having are about $100." I honestly thought those comments were tongue in cheek, but then the staff brought out tomahawk ribeyes for everyone! When I got back to work I looked at the menu to see that it indeed was $98 and is the most expensive thing on the "Baller Menu." I then let my wife know she is now married to a "baller" and that comes with a certain privileges, so I'm not taking out the trash for at least two weeks! That's a non-baller duty. The steak itself was... well... just okay. Not close to being worth $100! It was rather fatty and hard to cut off the gigantic bone sticking out of it. The sides, green beans and mashed potatoes, on the other hand were terrific! I'd probably punch an old lady for some more. (Yeah, that good). For dessert they brought out some kind of red cake, which was really good. Overall the place is cool, but if I'm buying my own steak give me any of the locals over here...maybe event Texas Roadhouse.

----------


## rx7guy

The two times we have gone, the gf and I have not been pleased. I think both times I tried the babyback ribs. I will say they were second the better time, but really nothing special at all. Gf was not happy with her meal both times. Service was sub-par also.

----------


## BBatesokc

Just got home from eating there..... My overall impression; The wife and I would probably never go there on our own. But, would not argue against it if others we were going out with insisted on going.

The decor of the place is nice and modern and the wait staff was very good. But the place is loud and the tables are packed in.

That said, all the food was 'good', but I didn't think any of it was exceptional or worth returning for. Every entree can be found 'better' at other local restaurants.

I had the meat loaf. It was good, but nothing to get excited about and didn't hold a candle to Red Rock Canyon Grill's meatloaf. My mac and cheese was good. But nothing like the mac and cheese at Iron Starr or several other good places. The salmon was good too, but for the price The Metro does it much better, IMO.

One steak that was ordered had to be recooked because it was ordered Medium Rare and arrived Medium to Well Done.

So, if you go you won't have bad food or service. But, for the price you can have much better food with far less hassle than going to Bricktown.

In no way is this place worth waiting 1-2 hours for a table.

If you do go, download the NoWait app and check-in at home and then arrive and be seated almost immediately (that's what we did).

But, for us, the company we were with made it a great night. But I doubt we'd ever go back.

FYI - Dinner for 2 is gonna run about $50-$60 minimum without drinks or high end steaks.

The wait staff really stood out. The place was extremely busy and the Thunder were playing live on the TV's. Even in all the commotion we never wanted for anything. Orders were taken quickly, and drinks were refreshed without hesitation. Other restaurants could learn from the waitress and her support staff we had tonight.

----------


## Sonny_Crockett

Check out the facebook review and other review sites. KD's has some of the worst stuck up service of any restaurant anywhere.

----------


## BBatesokc

> Check out the facebook review and other review sites. KD's has some of the worst stuck up service of any restaurant anywhere.


I've actually been twice now and both times the service was actually better than most other restaurants I frequent (that have much better food). Regardless, I'll leave this place for the tourists or out of towners who normally consider The Olive Garden fine dinning.

----------


## Chadanth

I ate at KDs this evening and found the service to be great. Didn't have to ask for anything, except, oddly, they delivered my bottled beer without a glass. I think the food might have improved a touch too.

----------


## Teo9969

> I ate at KDs this evening and found the service to be great. Didn't have to ask for anything, except, oddly, *they delivered my bottled beer without a glass.* I think the food might have improved a touch too.


This is one of those things that drives me insane. I don't know if it's the norm in every city, but it needs to be fixed.

----------


## jbkrems

KD's has a new Kitchen Manager and is getting an overhaul.  There may be a new food menu coming, too.

----------


## Chadanth

> KD's has a new Kitchen Manager and is getting an overhaul.  There may be a new food menu coming, too.


There were several new items on the menu, but it's been quite a while since we ate there.

----------


## Chadanth

> This is one of those things that drives me insane. I don't know if it's the norm in every city, but it needs to be fixed.


I just sat and stared at the bottle for a second.

----------


## kevinpate

Beer on tap gets a glass, obviously. Non keg beer?  Bring it cold (not a fan of warm beer) and I am good.  If the bottle/can ain't dusty, you are a good server and your top will reflect it.

----------


## zachj7

I am a fan of KDs. I have been there a few times, both were different though. The first time I went there was May of 2014 and the food was spectacular. The ribs were amazing, and all the sides were delicious. Then, we went there Jan of 2015 and the menu was similar but they changed the food. It just wasn't as good. It was still solid but it wasn't amazing like it was before. I don't know what had changed. The sides seemed a little smaller (that's fine) but the food changed. Some of them were subtle changes and some were more pronounced. I don't know what happened. I will still go there and enjoy the food, but it just isn't like it was when it first opened. I gotta check it out again to see if it has changed again.

----------


## Andon

So....

----------


## jbkrems

Why does it appear additional comments were deleted in this thread?

----------


## OSUMom

Anyone think this restaurant is going to survive?  Can't see it myself.

----------


## stile99

> So....


So.....what, exactly?  I am entirely unaware of anything preventing him from owning/having his name on a restaurant here.

----------


## OSUMom

> So.....what, exactly?  I am entirely unaware of anything preventing him from owning/having his name on a restaurant here.


Other than people not going to it?

----------


## Bill Robertson

It's a Hal Smith restaurant. I don't know what kind of agreement there is to use KDs name but I would think the Hal Smith attorneys left an out for just such a situation.

----------


## dankrutka

Probably should just replace it with a different Hal Smith concept. No chance it can stay.

----------


## catch22

> It's a Hal Smith restaurant. I don't know what kind of agreement there is to use KDs name but I would think the Hal Smith attorneys left an out for just such a situation.


Wasn't it reported that KD did in fact have an ownership stake in that specific location? This would be different than the normal HSRG where they own 100%. Perhaps I am wrong.

----------


## stile99

> Other than people not going to it?


Oh, how quickly OKC has gone from "We love you, please stay" to "don't let the door hit you on the way out".  Why would people not go?  If they liked the food/ambiance/location last week, none of that has changed.  Mickey Mantle's seems to be doing quite well, and he doesn't play here either.  Or anywhere, for that matter.

----------


## Tundra

> Wasn't it reported that KD did in fact have an ownership stake in that specific location? This would be different than the normal HSRG where they own 100%. Perhaps I am wrong.


All of Hal smith joints are owned or financed by multiples of different investors.....

----------


## kevinpate

> Probably should just replace it with a different Hal Smith concept. No chance it can stay.



KD's only fans are fair weather Sooner fans?  Who woulda thunk it.

----------


## dankrutka

> Oh, how quickly OKC has gone from "We love you, please stay" to "don't let the door hit you on the way out".  Why would people not go?  If they liked the food/ambiance/location last week, none of that has changed.  Mickey Mantle's seems to be doing quite well, and he doesn't play here either.  Or anywhere, for that matter.


You're kidding, right? The restaurant existed solely as a by-product of KD's role on the Thunder. That was the brand. He left. Of course it'll change. KD left, not the fans.

----------


## Pete

Remember, the Hal Smith group quickly rebranded the old Wes Welker's on Memorial Road when for whatever reason, that sponsorship / partnership did not work out.

Hal is the the most experienced restaurateur in all of OKC and I'm sure he and his investors have had a contingency plan from the day this deal was hatched.

Would be a good spot for something like Red Rock Canyon.

----------


## Bill Robertson

> KD's only fans are fair weather Sooner fans?  Who woulda thunk it.


He isn't from here like Mickey Mantle. He played here and now he's not. Now it would be like Curry, Thompson or Greene having a restaurant here. Not patronizing it but that's just me.

----------


## stile99

> KD's only fans are fair weather Sooner fans?  Who woulda thunk it.


Dang it, where's that like button?

----------


## chuck5815

> KD's only fans are fair weather Sooner fans?  Who woulda thunk it.



Speaking of fair-weather fans, Gallagher-Iba Arena has looked pretty empty the past, few years

----------


## Pete

Let's please not turn this into an OU / OSU pissing match.

Back to subject.

----------


## SoonerDave

Can't fathom any reason a KD restaurant would continue to operate. Certainly Hal Smith has a provision in their operating agreement covering what happens if KD left the team. I am betting the place is shuttered/rebranded within 30-60 days. They may have some commitments to meet/clean up, but the place can't continue. Let's be honest - I liked the place, but I have no desire to patronize the place any longer. That makes me fairweather? Eh, so be it. KD isn't gonna miss my twice-a-year visit any more than he's gonna miss OKC in general, which is clearly not at all.

----------


## Pete

Has there ever been a restaurant that thrived after it's namesake athlete left for another town?

No way they plan to keep operating this place as KD's for much longer.

I believe they have already taken down their Twitter account.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Has there ever been a restaurant that thrived after it's namesake athlete left for another town?
> 
> No way they plan to keep operating this place as KD's for much longer.
> 
> I believe they have already taken down their Twitter account.


Yup....it was gone after some nasty reaction to a poorly timed July 4 promotional tweet about coming to KD's and having a chicken dinner.....

----------


## stile99

I really can't believe I'm the only one who doesn't think this is the end of the world.  Worst case scenario, they're going to change the sign out front and related logo(s).  This place won't be 'shuttered' for more than two days max, assuming they even close it that long.  They'll change the name to Westbrook's, or if they are smart, they'll take a look at the attitude of this city the last not even 12 hours and go with something "non-denominational".

Kevin Durant is gone.  The Thunder WILL continue.  The restaurant WILL continue.  Some changes will happen to both, that's obvious.  But people, seriously.  The sky is still there, I promise you.  It's not falling.  Not even a little.

----------


## Pete

When they converted Wes Welker's to Pub W, they were closed for 2-3 months.

----------


## Urbanized

I can't imagine they didn't have a contingency plan. And KD's interest was compensation for using his name. I doubt KD invested a dime other than signing his name on the line. I was at the groundbreaking, and KD was asked directly if he was an owner and if so what percentage, and he was completely unsure (not as media-savvy in those days). Hal had to step up and after he and investors shared looks he said "25%."

It'll do fine as a different brand, and I'm sure that will be quite soon.

----------


## chuck5815

> I can't imagine they didn't have a contingency plan. And KD's interest was compensation for using his name. I doubt KD invested a dime other than signing his name on the line. I was at the groundbreaking, and KD was asked directly if he was an owner and if so what percentage, and he was completely unsure (not as media-savvy in those days). Hal had to step up and after he and investors shared looks he said "25%."
> 
> It'll do fine as a different brand, and I'm sure that will be quite soon.


If KD still owns that 25%, you have to think the HSG buys him out immediately and then goes out of its way to publicize that KD has no continuing interest in the new restaurant. Even with the rebranding, some folks won't support it if there is any possibility that KD is still involved.

----------


## Easy180

Pretty sure Singler's is not on the contingency name list

----------


## Urbanized

> If KD still owns that 25%, you have to think the HSG buys him out immediately and then goes out of its way to publicize that KD has no continuing interest in the new restaurant. Even with the rebranding, some folks won't support it if there is any possibility that KD is still involved.


I'm sure there was already verbiage in the partnership agreement that triggered a buyout if/when he left OKC. That is standard. Doubtful it will be drawn out process, either, as it is such a tiny portion of KD's portfolio.

Besides, his portion is a minority portion anyway. The other shareholders can essentially do what they want with the place without his permission, as long as it doesn't violate terms of their agreement.

----------


## catch22

I also don't think KD would put up a fight. He could partner with a Bay Area restraunt operator and have a new place open very soon if he truly wants the restaurant industry

----------


## 2Lanez

Not a bad thing.  This was easily the worst Hal Smith restaurant in town.

----------


## ljbab728

I have to apologize to all of OKC.  I never once went in the door.  I'm sure that's why he left so I'm very sorry.

----------


## jbkrems

The restaurant is very popular not just because of the moniker and brand identity, but for the quality of the food.  Comparing it to Wes Welker's is really not a good comparison.  Wes Welker's had a really serious issue... there were service problems and issues with the food.  The brand was actually suffering within the Hal Smith world, and that is why they closed it and turned it into Pub W.  There is absolutely no reason to go that direction with this restaurant.w  The food and service are superior.  I have heard they may name it "The Thunder Zone," to make it more generic and not tied to a specific player.  I would also recommend Westbrook's or something along those lines, but then what happens if he gets traded or moves on from Oklahoma a year from now.  Clearly Hal Smith would want to avoid dealing with that issue.

----------


## sooner88

> I can't imagine they didn't have a contingency plan. And KD's interest was compensation for using his name. I doubt KD invested a dime other than signing his name on the line. I was at the groundbreaking, and KD was asked directly if he was an owner and if so what percentage, and he was completely unsure (not as media-savvy in those days). Hal had to step up and after he and investors shared looks he said "25%."
> 
> It'll do fine as a different brand, and I'm sure that will be quite soon.


You're right. He didn't invest a dime, only lent his name.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> The restaurant is very popular not just because of the moniker and brand identity, but for the quality of the food. .... The food and service are superior..


We must have gone on different nights as these are not words I would use to describe KD's food or service.

----------


## Pete

Interesting article from the NY Times in May on this subject:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/09/sp...ef=sports&_r=0

----------


## pickles

> We must have gone on different nights as these are not words I would use to describe KD's food or service.


No kidding.

----------


## Pete

I deleted a bunch of posts where people are just attacking each other.

Stick to topic, please.

----------


## jn1780

How about Rumble's? lol

----------


## Urbanized

^^^^^^^
We went to dinner last night, and we got the Rumble's.

Nope.  :Smile:

----------


## progressiveboy

> Oh, how quickly OKC has gone from "We love you, please stay" to "don't let the door hit you on the way out".  Why would people not go?  If they liked the food/ambiance/location last week, none of that has changed.  Mickey Mantle's seems to be doing quite well, and he doesn't play here either.  Or anywhere, for that matter.


 Agree! To much emotional reaction from people.

----------


## Pete

They invested a huge amount of money on the interior build-out, so I'm sure they will keep all/most of that and then re-brand.

Can't do Mahogany since there is one close by and really Red Rock is about the only other more up-scale type of concept in the Hal Smith group that would begin to fit with the decor.

They could do something completely new but you would think the cuisine would change because it was all built around KD and his southern tastes.

----------


## jn1780

> Agree! To much emotional reaction from people.


Emotion goes both ways you know. It was the positive emotion people had for KD that helped draw customers right before Thunder games. Even people had a neutral emotional position toward KD after this. That still brings no value to the restaurant. 

And lets be honest, KD is no Mickey Mantel, Michael Jordan, or even a Lebron James for that matter.  He just guaranteed he never will be either.

----------


## Uptowner

They could re-brand it Serge Ibaka's tapas and wine bar.

Wait they lost Serge too??!

----------


## stile99

> They invested a huge amount of money on the interior build-out, so I'm sure they will keep all/most of that and then re-brand.
> 
> Can't do Mahogany since there is one close by and really Red Rock is about the only other more up-scale type of concept in the Hal Smith group that would begin to fit with the decor.
> 
> They could do something completely new but you would think the cuisine would change because it was all built around KD and his southern tastes.


That's what I'm saying.  I don't think the interior is going to change much, if at all.  All they need to do is change some signs and the related logos.  Reprint some menus.  The restaurant is going to do just fine.  But in the meantime, we can have fun spitballing ideas.  Let's drop the negativity and look to the future.  Spaghetti Warehouse, anyone?

Seriously though, I really don't even see a need for the cuisine to change that much.  So it reflects Southern tastes...that's where we *are*.  I don't care what name is on the building, chicken, fries, and burgers are just plain standard fare around here, if not everywhere.  Why not make it MORE southern?  Shine the light on those po' boys.  Bring those grits front and center, with options.  Shrimp and grits?  No problem.  Chicken and grits?  No problem.  Cheese grits?  No problem.  Throw in some more Cajun influence.  You've got gumbo, you're got collard greens...get some jambalaya on that menu!  While we're reprinting the menus, let's do something about that dessert menu.  Either expand it or get rid of it entirely and have a classic (and classy) dessert cart.  How about a couple tableside options?  Bananas foster, anyone?  Maybe a bourbon pecan pudding set aflame and topped with ice cream?

----------


## Pete

I've never even been in KD's largely because it's always seemed like a very odd mix of upscale and semi-expensive and southern food.

Fried chicken and comfort food at relatively high prices?  It's never seen like a good match, apart from the KD tie-in.

----------


## sooner88

> I've never even been in KD's largely because it's always seemed like a very odd mix of upscale and semi-expensive and southern food.
> 
> Fried chicken and comfort food at relatively high prices?  It's never seen like a good match, apart from the KD tie-in.


Cheever's?

----------


## Pete

> Cheever's?


Fair point, but they do it very, very well while the reviews for KD's were mixed at best.

----------


## Uptowner

I haven't seen a Restraunt flamb table side in years and years. Not even in France. I just don't think the insurance companies will underwrite that **** anymore. "Oh your restaurant burned down, 10 dead? You were cooking bananas and sugar with flaming booze? No problem, here's a check."

How about Scott Brooks Cooks??

----------


## sooner88

> Fair point, but they do it very, very well while the reviews for KD's were mixed at best.


No, I agree. I would choose Cheever's any day of the week. There's definitely a market for it if it's done right.

----------


## Uptowner

Hal's places are just too stretched out. I think they do a very VERY good job at mahogany. But you gotta think each one of these high end concepts takes a consultant, a kick-*** GM, and a wide range of happy, well paid staff to run it all. And parking under the I-40 overpass and being abused by rednecks having their birthday dinner in the big city doesn't sound like a cakewalk.

----------


## Uptowner

> No, I agree. I would choose Cheever's any day of the week. There's definitely a market for it if it's done right.


Whiskey cake too.

----------


## stile99

> I haven't seen a Restraunt flamb table side in years and years.


I've seen it with my very own eyes in both San Antonio and New Orleans, both within this decade, whatever we call it.  The teens, the tens, whatever.  It's very far from dead.

----------


## Uptowner

Damn, now you've got me drooling. I'm going to try making on the BBQ grill this week. Extra cognac  :Smile:

----------


## Bullbear

I have been to KD's twice, First time the food was ok the service was not so good and big mix up on orders ect and they made good on it. the 2nd time was for someone's Birthday celebration. Food wasn't amazing service was better but for me just wasn't on my rotation.   a change might do them good.

----------


## GoldFire

I'm surprised to hear all of the hate for the food/service, I guess we just lucked out the 4 or 5 times we went as I always thought it was very good. But yes, there's no way I'm going back without a re-brand.

----------


## Tundra

Hollies Flat Iron, is a top performer for Hal.., that may be due to the location and the fact Moore doesn't have a steakhouse of any sort, but the food is really good and is very similar to RedRock....

----------


## SoonerDave

> Hollies Flat Iron, is a top performer for Hal.., that may be due to the location and the fact Moore doesn't have a steakhouse of any sort, but the food is really good and is very similar to RedRock....


Second this! Been down there a few times and its a very pleasant atmosphere and consistently good food. Recommended.

----------


## jbkrems

They would have to really gut KDs and renovate in order to get a Hollie's in there.  The dcor would have to be completely re-done.  Plus, I think a Hollie's next to Toby Keith's.... not a good idea.  Anyways, I think the plan is just to change the name slightly to be more inclusive, like "ThunderDome," or something along those lines.  My guess is the food concept stays given the popularity of their southern fried chicken.

----------


## HOT ROD

Personally, I think it should be re-branded as "Russell's Place" and have an upscale cali-style seafood menu.

RW has been the best Thunder player for the past several seasons and now with the team and CITY all his own, perhaps he will truly shine as the league's real MVP and lead OKC to championships. 

Having his own restaurant  would be a bigger hit than "KD's" ever could/would imo, especially if they expanded it with a club/lounge and had fashion shows featuring Russell's lines. .......

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> Personally, I think it should be re-branded as "Russell's Place" and have an upscale cali-style seafood menu.
> 
> RW has been the best Thunder player for the past several seasons and now with the team and CITY all his own, perhaps he will truly shine as the league's real MVP and lead OKC to championships. 
> 
> Having his own restaurant  would be a bigger hit than "KD's" ever could/would imo, especially if they expanded it with a club/lounge and had fashion shows featuring Russell's lines. .......


Perhaps after next summer, such a concept could/should be considered, but to do so before that would be foolish at best given we're likely to see the same process next summer and the odds are no better in keeping Westbrook than in keeping Durant — in fact, a few weeks ago, the conventional wisdom was that between the two Durant was more likely to stay. To haphazardly rebrand to a Russell-themed restaurant with the future so readily in doubt would be a big (and expensive) gamble for Hal Smith — not worth it, IMHO.

----------


## Jesseda

To bad they just don't rename it "The Thunderdome" and have each current player inspire a dish for the menu. So there wouldn't be the constant name changing and remodeling

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> To bad they just don't rename it "The Thunderdome" and have each current player inspire a dish for the menu. So there wouldn't be the constant name changing and remodeling


Honestly, that's a DAMNED good idea! 

Otherwise, I'm thinking...just turn it into Bricktown Charlestons (With Flair).

----------


## gopokes88

> Personally, I think it should be re-branded as "Russell's Place" and have an upscale cali-style seafood menu.
> 
> RW has been the best Thunder player for the past several seasons and now with the team and CITY all his own, perhaps he will truly shine as the league's real MVP and lead OKC to championships. 
> 
> Having his own restaurant  would be a bigger hit than "KD's" ever could/would imo, especially if they expanded it with a club/lounge and had fashion shows featuring Russell's lines. .......


Russell's Brussels 

http://youtu.be/mJjw2oYL8A0

----------


## White Peacock

Call it Steven Adams' Stomphouse, specializing in Maori cuisine.

----------


## kevinpate

Aww shoot, maybe just go ahead and rebrand it as Hal's Pals and use removable signage and easily replaceable digital menus.

----------


## catch22

Call it The Sellout Cellar.

----------


## Martin

with sonic hq around the corner, they could buy the space from hsrg and turn it into an upscale sonic concept... a _super sonic_, if you will. -M

----------


## Roger S

> with sonic hq around the corner, they could buy the space from hsrg and turn it into an upscale sonic concept... a _super sonic_, if you will. -M


HAHA.... I thought it would have been funny if Sonic had bought the naming rights to the Arena a few years back and named it the Super Sonic Center.

----------


## Bullbear

ZOMBIE KD.. zombiefy everything..lol

----------


## dankrutka

Is it still open?  If so, I wonder how business is doing.

----------


## Laramie

So disappointed that K. D. just abandoned everything he invested in Oklahoma City.

*Yes, let's not forget all the good he did for our city.* 

Would love to see something like a version of the Spaghetti Warehouse where KD's now stand.   It's time to forget about Durant's decision and move on.   The best way we can adjust: 

*KILL DURANT WITH KINDNESS.*

. . . show him what he really missed.   Oklahoma City doesn't have to chase a ring to cement our legacy.   Our future is bright.

----------


## Urbanized

> Is it still open?  If so, I wonder how business is doing.


Closed with a sign on the door that says it is closed temporarily with a new concept coming soon.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Closed with a sign on the door that says it is closed temporarily with a new concept coming soon.


http://www.news9.com/story/32523761/...porarily-close

----------


## Pete

So, sounds like the will only make minor changes to the menu and interior and reopen under a new name around Labor Day.

----------


## SoonerDave

> So, sounds like the will only make minor changes to the menu and interior and reopen under a new name around Labor Day.


Sure sounds like that. Betting a lot of the collective theories here pan out - some sort of agreement with the team for a generically Thunder-themed restaurant. 

It'll take a while to have a bonfire big enough to get rid of all the paraphernalia for the person-who-shall-no-longer-be-named.

----------


## Pete

I bet it will have nothing to do with the Thunder.

Their endorsement deal was with KD directly, not the team.

They would likely have to pay much more to get that type of arrangement.

Remember, after the arrangement with Wes Welker changed, they just rebranded as a Pub W.   I suspect in this case, it would be a completely new name.

----------


## Urbanized

Honestly doubt it will have anything to do with the Thunder. Just guessing though.

----------


## Urbanized

Oops. Pete beat me to it.

----------


## jbkrems

I am very disappointed that they will not open until after Labor Day.  Opening before Labor Day weekend would be better so people can use their time off and holiday weekend to try the new concept.

----------


## JDSooners

> I am very disappointed that they will not open until after Labor Day.  Opening before Labor Day weekend would be better so people can use their time off and holiday weekend to try the new concept.


Naw as long as its open before the Thunder season opener or preseason games.

----------


## OSUMom

https://twitter.com/Enes_Kanter/stat...68645191823360

----------


## jbkrems

Brianna Bailey has a sister article just out which suggests a LLC subsidiary of Hal Smith Restaurant Group has trademarked 3 new names.  Legacy Grill was trademarked on July 21st most recently, and Henry Bar and Buzz Breakfast Club were trademarked back in June.  I could see Legacy Grill being the new moniker for the former KDs.

----------


## AP

^That would be a perfect fit considering KD's consistent talk of legacy.

----------


## warreng88

Hal Smith to rebrand, reopen KD’s in September

By: Molly M. Fleming  The Journal Record	July 25, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – University of Denver professor HG Parsa said the changes underway at KD’s Southern Cuisine are more about the venue than the name.

Parsa has studied restaurant closures for 15 years and authored a four-part study on why eateries shut their doors.

“Usually, honestly, no one closes a restaurant because a player left,” he said. “I don’t buy that the restaurant is closing because Kevin Durant left.”

KD’s is owned and operated by Hal Smith Restaurant Group. Hal Smith told The Journal Record on July 13 – a week after Durant announced his plans to leave – that the restaurant’s sales were better than he expected. He said Durant’s plans hit him and his partners out of left field.

Smith said in a prepared statement that he is working on a new concept to replace KD’s, which sits east of the Harkins Theatre in Bricktown. He said the new restaurant will open after Labor Day, with a menu similar to its predecessor.

This is the second time that Hal Smith Restaurant Group has had to rebrand a celebrity-related eatery. In August 2015, the company changed Norman restaurant Big Dog Daddy’s Ice House to Toby’s American Grill.

Parsa said he thinks the situation at KD’s was not as positive as Smith said, and that the restaurant probably wasn’t doing well financially. A celebrity’s name accounts for only 20 percent of most restaurant sales, he said.

“The name brings people one time,” he said. “Otherwise, it’s the service, food, and ambience that brings them back.”

Parsa gave the example of Shanahan’s Steakhouse in Denver. The restaurant is named after former Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. He was fired from the team in 2008. The restaurant remains open.

Reviews on the website Yelp.com for KD’s were mixed. Some people praised the food, and other customers gave the restaurant low ratings because of the wait staff, the food quality, and because the experience did not match the price.

University of New Orleans professor David Njite said the rebranding and reopening should be a lesson to other restaurant operators. He said it’s too early in Durant’s career to name a restaurant after him, especially one in Oklahoma City.

“(Restaurant operators) need to wait until someone has a base,” he said. “KD’s a baby. He still has a career and place to go.”

Njite studies consumer behavior in the hospitality and tourism context. He said he can understand why the name is being changed. If people don’t like Durant, they will not visit the restaurant because of sentiment toward him.

He said he doesn’t think the restaurant failed. He said it’s a smart move in terms of reaching customers.

“When you do branding, you try to get to the peoples’ emotions,” he said. “When they have KD’s, people have hurt feelings. Closing down, I think was a good thing.”

----------


## Pete

> This is the second time that Hal Smith Restaurant Group has had to rebrand a celebrity-related eatery. In August 2015, the company changed Norman restaurant Big Dog Daddy’s Ice House to Toby’s American Grill.


Forgetting Wes Welker's, which is a far more relevant comparison.

Interestingly, Pub W seems to be doing better than Welker's ever did.  Hope it turns out the same for this restaurant, as feedback had been mixed long before KD left.

----------


## SoonerDave

> Hal Smith to rebrand, reopen KD’s in September
> 
> By: Molly M. Fleming  The Journal Record	July 25, 2016
> 
> OKLAHOMA CITY – University of Denver professor HG Parsa said the changes underway at KD’s Southern Cuisine are more about the venue than the name.
> 
> Parsa has studied restaurant closures for 15 years and authored a four-part study on why eateries shut their doors.
> 
> “Usually, honestly, no one closes a restaurant because a player left,” he said. “I don’t buy that the restaurant is closing because Kevin Durant left.”
> ...


No offense to whomever posted it, but that's five minutes of my life I won't get back. Essentially a worthless article. Irrelevant academic insight into why KD leaving really wasn't why the namesake restaurant closed, which is absurd, then an equally unrelated comment about a coach-named restaurant in a different city, different sport staying open. I guess they gotta fill the column-inches somehow...

----------


## Pete

Yeah, this situation with KD is  completely unprecedented in many ways.

I doubt their business only dropped 20% after his announcement.

----------


## Urbanized

Irrespective of the quality of the food/service, the KD brand is now toxic in OKC. They really had no choice. And the restaurant didn't "close" in the sense that the professor meant. It's not closing at all. It's specifically only a brand reboot;; heck they apparently intend on keeping much of the old menu.

He obviously has little insight into this particular situation.

A coach who won a ring for a city and who is later fired is a TERRIBLE comparison. Heck, if SCOTT BROOKS had partnered with someone here to open "Brooksie's Pub" or something like that, HIS place probably wouldn't have had to change the name when he was fired. People here still generally have a fondness for him.

The perception of OKC fans is that KD rejected them. No way could that brand survive here, even if they had previously been KILLING IT (and honestly, there often WERE lines out the door, immediately prior to his departure).

----------


## Pete

I've heard there is a very good chance this restaurant will be re-branded as 'Rumble's' and keep the most the Thunder memorabilia.

Also, my understanding is that they bought out KD's 20% share for around $1.6 million.

----------


## Bill Robertson

I wish I could get someone to pay me millions to go away!

----------


## sooner88

Interesting. I assume that they'll have to pay a license fee to use Rumble... but from a tourist attraction it's probably better to be affiliated with Thunder still vs. not.

----------


## FighttheGoodFight

Out-of-towners are going to love a Rumble restaurant. Safe move.

----------


## jrod

Heard a rumor they were considering turning this into another Pub W, but Rumble's would definitely make sense.

----------


## jbkrems

KDs is too big to be turned into a Pub W type place.  I was just at the Memorial Rd. store last night.  Also, if they plan on keeping much of the menu the same, it will NOT be Pub W.  My bet is on Rumble's, or Legacy Grill.

----------


## Pete

They spent a fortune on the interior and certainly don't want to pull a lot of it out, and it's far too nice for a Pub W in my opinion.

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## dankrutka

It's not a great location in my opinion. It's kind of off the beaten path a bit and doesn't get the foot traffic that other areas of Bricktown get. I think whatever goes in this location needs a local or national brand to be successful. I'm not sure Rumble's will resonate the same way KD's did. Kevin Durant is a global brand and when people came to OKC they wanted a piece of that. That draw is gone now. The interior is great though so I hope they figure out something that works.

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## loveOKC

Pappadeaux would be so dope in this spot!!

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## dankrutka

> Pappadeaux would be so dope in this spot!!


Agreed! I actually think that would be the perfect type of establishment for this spot (with the exception that the interior decor would probably have to be re-done).

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## jbkrems

Unfortunately HSRG doesn't own Pappas Restaurant Group.

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## Plutonic Panda

Are there any Pappadeaux's in urban areas? Is Bubba Gump Shrimp owned by Pappa's? If so, they have urban Bubba Gump restaurants I have seen.

Bricktown would be great for a Bubba Gump Shrimp and a White Castle similar to the one in Las Vegas. If I ever get rich, I will make that happen.

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## bradh

Someone wanna get Tillman Fertita on the horn for this space?

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## jbkrems

Yes, there is a Pappadeaux's in Arlington, Texas which is a Dallas suburb and a fairly urban area.  However, I am not sure if the Bubba Gump Shrimp restaurant is owned by Pappas Restaurant Group.  According to the Pappas Restaurant website, Bubba Gumps is not listed as one of their concepts.  Also, the building is owned by HSRG (Hal Smith), and in general they do not sell their properties to other operators.

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## Plutonic Panda

By urban I mean in a downtown type walkable area. I haven't been to the one Arlington.

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## jbkrems

The one in Arlington is actually kind of sad and run down.  It is actually near Six Flags or the stadium or both in the Arlington area.  But, that isn't going to happen, anyways... Hal Smith owns the property of the former KD's and it appears they are going to try a "fan favorites," kind of restaurant, capitalizing on southern fried chicken and the former KD bestsellers.

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## Jeepnokc

Bubba Gumps is owned by the Landry's chain.

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## Urbanized

Guys, this isn't a failed restaurant. There is no reason to sell. I also don't get the obsession here to make it a Thunder-related brand. Yeah, it's a hit to lose the KD affiliation, but I'm not sure replacing it with a different Thunder theme will bring back the customers that were previously coming because they wanted to eat at KD's restaurant.

HSRG has plenty of other brands to choose from - all successful - or could tweak a brand slightly, or could create a new brand altogether. This is something at which they're actually pretty good. Honestly, I think some sort of twist on Red Rock would be a great fit. But who knows? All I DO know is that they won't be selling to a national brand.

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## sooner88

> Yes, there is a Pappadeaux's in Arlington, Texas which is a Dallas suburb and a fairly urban area.  However, I am not sure if the Bubba Gump Shrimp restaurant is owned by Pappas Restaurant Group.  According to the Pappas Restaurant website, Bubba Gumps is not listed as one of their concepts.  Also, the building is owned by HSRG (Hal Smith), and in general they do not sell their properties to other operators.


 I could be wrong, but he doesn't own the building does he? Just leases the space? I could be off on that, but regardless I agree he is not going to sell or give up his lease.

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## Pete

Hogan owns the KD's buildiing.

Interestingly, Hal Smith owns the Toby Keith building.

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## OKCisOK4me

I'm not worried about what's going to replace KD's. I only ever purchased a gift card from there and never ate there nor do I regret the decision. While it may have been a tourism draw, it's not like  it's the go to destination in Bricktown or downtown for that matter.

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## jbkrems

Bump.  Any word yet on the new concept which will replace this?  Brianna Bailey reported HSRG would release the new name/concept this month.

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## sooner88

Heard that it will be in fact called Legacy Grill as suspected here. The concept won't change much and the "legacy" will focus on athletes close to Oklahlma.

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## Pete

Yep, Legacy Grill it is:

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## Zuplar

Maybe this has been answered, but is KD still going to have an ownership stake in it?

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## Pete

> Maybe this has been answered, but is KD still going to have an ownership stake in it?


He is being or has already been bought out.

It was a big chunk of money.

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## Urbanized

> Maybe this has been answered, but is KD still going to have an ownership stake in it?


No, his minority interest was bought out.

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## catch22

Too bad he didn't own the restaurant 100%. Would be nice to see him take a huge loss from an empty restaurant.

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## Zuplar

> He is being or has already been bought out.
> 
> It was a big chunk of money.


Something they may consider is telling people this. I have a feeling some may not go to it thinking he still owns part of it, simply because they don't want to put a dime in his pocket.

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## Pete

From legacygrill.com (elsewhere on the front page is the date of September 12th):

"OPENING IN SEPTEMBER

Hal Smith Restaurants is headquartered right here in central Oklahoma. We’ve always had a dream of adding a restaurant to our family that honors the contributions of great Oklahomans.

Starting in September, join us at Legacy Grill for top-notch cuisine, a relaxed, service-oriented atmosphere and an ambience that surrounds you with artifacts commemorating more than 200 past and present Oklahoma greats, from astronauts and actors, to civil rights activists and civic leaders, to sports stars and singers, and many more.

We’ve made a few updates to our menu to help keep things exciting. (Don’t worry – our famous fried chicken isn’t going anywhere!) Seven days a week, whether you’re in the mood for fried or fresh, we know you’ll find something you love at Legacy Grill."

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## chuck5815

> Something they may consider is telling people this. I have a feeling some may not go to it thinking he still owns part of it, simply because they don't want to put a dime in his pocket.


Yeah, that's my thought at the moment. Although whatever stake he had (or might still have) is small potatoes to him.

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## kevinpate

Whatever his legacy will or will not be in OKC, it ain't this grill.

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## dankrutka

> Something they may consider is telling people this. I have a feeling some may not go to it thinking he still owns part of it, simply because they don't want to put a dime in his pocket.


"Hi, welcome to Legacy Grill. That snake Kevin Durant is not an owner of this restaurant. How many in your group?"

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## Bill Robertson

> "Hi, welcome to Legacy Grill. That snake Kevin Durant is not an owner of this restaurant. How many in your group?"


Dammit! Where's that like button!

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## Thomas Vu

I think it'll be more like HSRG is going to make a killing cause people don't want to put a dime in his pocket.

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## SoonerDave

> Yeah, that's my thought at the moment. Although whatever stake he had (or might still have) is small potatoes to him.


I believe a story ran fairly recently that his entire interest in the place was bought out. 

He. Has. Been. Exorcised.

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## SoonerDave

> I think it'll be more like HSRG is going to make a killing cause people don't want to put a dime in his pocket.


And I find it interesting that it is *not* a sports-themed place now. "Legacy" covering a *lot* of bases in OK history - neat idea.

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## Pete

Believe it or not, I will now be more likely to go.

I never set foot in KD's and there are very few places in OKC where that is the case.

I was a bit turned off by the attempt at upscale while combining with a basketball player...  Weird combo IMO.  And the "baller menu" only enhanced those feelings.

Now, I think Hal & Co. will work their usual magic and get the kinks out of the menu and have the theme more aligned with the price points and setting.  I also think the changes will make it a better place to take visitors.

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## stile99

> And I find it interesting that it is *not* a sports-themed place now. "Legacy" covering a *lot* of bases in OK history - neat idea.


Maybe if we're really lucky Brad Pitt and Chuck Norris will play along.  Me, I want to sit at the Owen K Garriott table.  

So what defines an 'Oklahoma Great'?  Is it just people who were born here, or people who have made Oklahoma their home?  Ronnie Kaye wasn't born in Oklahoma, but he has a history here.  On the flip side, Sam Walton was born in Kingfisher, but absolutely nobody thinks of Oklahoma when they hear his name.

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## Zuplar

> Believe it or not, I will now be more likely to go.
> 
> I never set foot in KD's and there are very few places in OKC where that is the case.
> 
> I was a bit turned off by the attempt at upscale while combining with a basketball player...  Weird combo IMO.  And the "baller menu" only enhanced those feelings.
> 
> Now, I think Hal & Co. will work their usual magic and get the kinks out of the menu and have the theme more aligned with the price points and setting.  I also think the changes will make it a better place to take visitors.


Exact same for me.

I noticed yesterday on FB that there were a couple comments asking about ownership, because if he still owned they wouldn't go there. Might be in their best interest to issue a press release with "details" one of which could be that ownership is changed or been shifted. I think once people figure it out though it will be a big hit. Good location IMO.

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## Thomas Vu

From a reviews standpoint, the "baller menu" positively affected the restaurant.  When conceived the reviews indicated it was sub par nothing special.  Granted that took a dive when he left.

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## 2Lanez

> So what defines an 'Oklahoma Great'?  Is it just people who were born here, or people who have made Oklahoma their home?


What about Oklahoma Hall of Famers?  Er, wait...

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## Roger S

Legacy Grill officially opens today...

http://kfor.com/2016/09/12/legacy-gr...to-the-public/

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## jbkrems

I checked the menu and they deleted the BBQ chicken that I always enjoyed.  I won't be going there now.

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## Pete

Here is the menu.

For those who know, has it changed much?





Click here to view or download the file directly.

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## jbkrems

Like I said above, no BBQ chicken.  I am significantly disappointed and won't be returning there.

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## theanvil

[QUOTE=OK BBQ Eater Anonymous;966898]Legacy Grill officially opens today...

Meh.

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## jerrywall

> Here is the menu.
> 
> For those who know, has it changed much?


Doesn't seem like it....

https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/kds-...ity-2?tab=menu

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## Pete

^

Thanks.

Yes, not much change at all.

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## Roger S

Looks like they just dropped the Baller menu and apparently someones favorite BBQ Chicken.

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## Colbafone

What are the chances KD took his BBQ Chicken recipe with him? Can't believe they would drop the BBQ Chicken otherwise. Ive heard from several sources that the BBQ Chicken was the only reason they would go. Count me in as one who won't be frequenting this establishment without KD's delicious BBQ Chicken.

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## stile99

I believe the phone number is (405) 701-3535.  (When I say believe, I mean I confirmed it by calling.)  If you really feel that strongly about the BBQ chicken, I am quite certain they would appreciate the feedback.

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## Urbanized

Can we change that number so that it ends with 0000?

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## Roger S

> I believe the phone number is (405) 701-3535.





> Can we change that number so that it ends with 0000?


Ok... that actually made me laugh out loud!

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## FighttheGoodFight

I never went to the place but this BBQ Chicken must have been the greatest thing on the planet based on the replies.

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## catcherinthewry

I loved the Fried Chicken and Waffles, but in solidarity with jbkrems I won't go there anymore because they dropped the awesome BBQ Chicken.

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## catcherinthewry

Like I said above I loved the Fried chicken and Waffles.

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## Pete

http://okcfox.com/news/local/the-nam...o-legacy-grill

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## David

Count me also fairly curious about this BBQ Chicken I never managed to try.

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## Colbafone

I feel like not including KD's Delicious BBQ Chicken will wind up being the final nail in the coffin for Hal Smith. I just don't understand how you screw up this badly. Total injustice not having the BBQ Chicken on the menu any longer.

However, like I mentioned, it is possible KD himself owns the recipe. It's possible he took his talents AND his BBQ Chicken with him to Oakland. And if that is true, I have lost ALL respect for him. It's one thing to play for a different team, but to take his delicious BBQ Chicken with him? The man has no soul.

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## Pete



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## Teo9969

> I feel like not including KD's Delicious BBQ Chicken will wind up being the *final nail in the coffin for Hal Smith.* I just don't understand how you screw up this badly. Total injustice not having the BBQ Chicken on the menu any longer.
> 
> However, like I mentioned, it is possible KD himself owns the recipe. It's possible he took his talents AND his BBQ Chicken with him to Oakland. And if that is true, I have lost ALL respect for him. It's one thing to play for a different team, but to take his delicious BBQ Chicken with him? The man has no soul.


. . .

. . .

. . .

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## Roger S

> I feel like not including KD's Delicious BBQ Chicken will wind up being the final nail in the coffin for Hal Smith. I just don't understand how you screw up this badly. Total injustice not having the BBQ Chicken on the menu any longer.


I totally agree.... Mahogany Prime, Red Canyon Grill, Charleston's, and all those Garage locations springing up here, and in other states, should be closing any day now! ALL BECAUSE OF BBQ CHICKEN!!!

Pete... You can be pretty certain I'm not being what you questioned with that pic.  :Wink:

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## AP

I'm pretty sure he was poking fun at jbkrems....

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## Colbafone

> I'm pretty sure he was poking fun at jbkrems....


I most certainly am. I get the love for a particular item, but to not try a restaurant because of a lack of said item is pretty goofy in my mind. But to each their own. 

BBQ Chicken or not, I'll certainly try the place out.

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## Pete

My understanding is that the space itself hasn't changed much apart from wallpaper and the artwork.

Will be very interesting to see how they do on a go-forward basis.

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## Roger S

> Will be very interesting to see how they do on a go-forward basis.


I think they will be fine. All they really needed to do was get KD's name off the building.... and as pointed out earlier maybe get rid of that 3535 in the phone number.

Hal Smith provides solid, safe, dining options. It's why the HSG has been so successful...... well except for that BBQ chicken gaffe.... and when I say "safe" I don't mean as in secure, even though they are that too, but I mean for the less adventurous diner.... Hal Smith restaurants fit the average diners comfort zone.

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## Roger S

Well if the lack of BBQ Chicken doesn't bring about HSG's demise. Whoever is handling their social media might.

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## HOT ROD

definitely need to drop the 35's in the phone number, how could that have been missed? .....

And for the question of the day: 

Is KD still in the 'Oklahoma Hall of Fame' or has he been moved to the new 'Oklahoma Hall of Shame'. ....?

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## Scott5114

> definitely need to drop the 35's in the phone number, how could that have been missed? .....


No, they're obviously now there to pay tribute to the road that goes to Dallas... :P

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## JesStang

If I read "BBQ chicken" one more time! 
Nah, actually y'all had me laughing out loud at work.  :Wink: 

I went to KD's once and had the chicken fried steak; it was delicious!! Definitely the best I've ever had. And if I liked leftovers, it was big enough for another meal. I also had the mac n cheese & rolls, both were amazing. Hopefully the new place keeps up the quality. It was expensive but I won't be the person who complains about that.

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## BillyOcean

this place will not survive without the KD angle....I give it a max of one year.  hope I am wrong.

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## jerrywall

Because Hal Smith Group has no experience running successful restaurants?

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## Roger S

> Because Hal Smith Group has no experience running successful restaurants?


Nope.... Because there is no BBQ Chicken!!!!!

Actually I'll bet BillyOcean a plate of chicken and waffles it will be there in a year..... If it is they buy me chicken and waffles there. If it's not then I'll buy them chicken and waffles there.  :Wink:

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## jerrywall

I have to say, I'm really regretting never trying the BBQ Chicken.  I've heard around somewhere it was pretty good.  :P

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## Pete

> I have to say, I'm really regretting never trying the BBQ Chicken.  I've heard around somewhere it was pretty good.  :P


Consider it a blessing...

You would have become addicted then driven to madness by its sudden disappearance.

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## Urbanized

^^^^^^
lol

----------


## dankrutka

Even though I never tasted the BBQ chicken, I'm having withdrawal symptoms just reading this thread...  :Wink:

----------


## jerrywall

Ah, just buy a Roasted Chicken at Crest and dip it into a vat of Head Country BBQ.  That's the Okie way to getrdone!

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## Roger S

Well I'm starting to see a market for KD's BBQ Chicken on the canal...... Wonder if they'd let me setup a smoker on one of the boats?

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## Urbanized

^^^^^^^
I can answer that one: yes, if I get unlimited BBQ chicken.

----------


## jerrywall

Now I'm just picturing a bunch of these on the canal...

----------


## Urbanized



----------


## Roger S

Well my boat would look more like this....

----------


## jerrywall

I could see flagging that down while walking along the canal....

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## Urbanized

"How much for just one rib?"

----------


## Roger S

> "How much for just one rib?"


Look. We're going to need an orthopedic surgeon to remove my foot from your a$$!

----------


## Martin

well... it seems people around here have good taste in movies. -M

----------


## Roger S

> well... it seems people around here have good taste in movies. -M


That was from a movie?  :Wink:

----------


## jerrywall

... You got change for a hundred?

----------


## Roger S

Man... I just wish I could get 5 ribs for $2.50!

We pay anywhere from $22 to $31 for a slab of 11-12 ribs at each stop on the Rib Tour.

----------


## jerrywall

Now I have to hit klemms on the way home...

----------


## Roger S

> Now I have to hit klemms on the way home...


Do they have BBQ Chicken?

----------


## jerrywall

> Do they have BBQ Chicken?


Boom!  And we're done here folks.  lol

----------


## shawnw

Urbanized you need to make this happen. Food Boats (vs Food Trucks) need to be a thing...

----------


## sbs

I was in Bricktown this weekend and happened to walk by Legacy Grill around dinner time. The place was a complete ghost town. Bricktown was PACKED with people, especially Ohio State fans, but no one was in Legacy Grill. Sad to see.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I was in Bricktown this weekend and happened to walk by Legacy Grill around dinner time and the place was a ghost town. Bricktown was PACKED with people, especially Ohio State fans, but no one was in Legacy Grill. Sad to see.


#BringBackThe BBQChicken

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I was in Bricktown this weekend and happened to walk by Legacy Grill around dinner time. The place was a complete ghost town. Bricktown was PACKED with people, especially Ohio State fans, but no one was in Legacy Grill. Sad to see.


It isn't that sad, I mean it did just reopen last week.

----------


## Laramie

Barbecued chicken (quarters/halfs) is a difficult product to keep fresh which last only for 4-6 hours.  Chicken breaks down; quickly loses its flavor.   

Restaurants (regulated by most health departments) are not allowed to refrigerate BBQ chicken or any meat for resale unless used in a gravy--example, turkey giblets. 

Contact the Legacy Grill; let them know that the BBQ chicken was your favorite.   If they have rights to the recipe, you bet they will quickly add it to the menu.

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## sbs

> It isn't that sad, I mean it did just reopen last week.


Which is a reason you would think it would be busy. It was the first weekend the restaurant was open.

----------


## Urbanized

KD, is that you?

----------


## Pete

I stopped by last night for a beer at the bar.

I had never been in before but from photos, not much seems to have changed.  Which is fine, because it's beautiful space.

Even at 7:30/8:00PM it was relatively busy.

The more Hal Smith places I try, the more I'm impressed by the service.  The bartender asked me my name, offered hers and then addressed me by name the rest of the time.  The other people working there seemed similarly friendly and professional.

I really like the bar area and a pint of Coop Native Amber in a frosty glass was only $5...  But the lighting is all wrong.  Way too bright and  harsh for those sitting at the bar.

----------

