# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  The Transcript article about Normans future water supply.

## ou48A

On the day that we started mandatory water restrictions in the middle of winter this seems like an urgent issue for a growing city.


Planning for Norman?s future water supply  Headlines  The Norman Transcript

----------


## ou48A

Ideas, solutions, and thoughts.

Drill as many wells as possible for a stop gap measure.


How could we expand the use of Gray water? We could identify places of high irrigation. As we dig up major streets for reconstruction it might be possible to install gray water lines that could eventually service more customers who could use gray water.


In the long run secure and develop a large new water source.


Should Norman really be spending millions of dollars on a luxury like a new park when we have fundamental basic needs for increased water supply?

----------


## Dubya61

Would the Elm Creek Reservoir service only OKC?

----------


## venture

> Drill as many wells as possible for a stop gap measure.


The underground water sources are only going to have so much supply, you can't drill out of this.




> How could we expand the use of Gray water? We could identify places of high irrigation. As we dig up major streets for reconstruction it might be possible to install gray water lines that could eventually service more customers who could use gray water.


Gray water will help, but that is a lot of extra cost that you are going to ask Norman residents to pay on their utility bills.




> In the long run secure and develop a large new water source.


This is probably the best option. We need to evaluate areas, if there are any along the Canadian River and such, that we can dam up and create more storage areas for water. Not to mention just the overall impact of having a full river will have on property values and such.




> Should Norman really be spending millions of dollars on a luxury like a new park when we have fundamental basic needs for increased water supply?


Should Norman be approving new developments on the fringes of town that require resources when that money should stick to the urban core to upgrade services? The city is still going to have to move forward with development. Maybe we just need to make sure that anyone North of Tecumseh south to the River and between West 48th and East 36th aren't connected to the Norman water system. If you want to live there, dig a well. Stupid? Absolutely. Just like putting any other developments on hold for this.

That whole cutting off one's nose thing.

----------


## ou48A

> The underground water sources are only going to have so much supply, you can't drill out of this.
> 
> 
> 
> Gray water will help, but that is a lot of extra cost that you are going to ask Norman residents to pay on their utility bills.
> 
> 
> 
> This is probably the best option. We need to evaluate areas, if there are any along the Canadian River and such, that we can dam up and create more storage areas for water. Not to mention just the overall impact of having a full river will have on property values and such.
> ...





> The underground water sources are only going to have so much supply; you can't drill out of this.


 Drilling new water wells is probably the cheapest and quickest fix but it clearly isn’t going to be the solution, but it will help.

QUOTE=venture79;610148]Gray water will help, but that is a lot of extra cost that you are going to ask Norman residents to pay on their utility bills. .[/QUOTE] It would be a very slow process to expand and lines would only be run to major consumers. I suppose small users could use the service if they had a gray water line close enough to them. For example if someone lived next to a major city owned gray water line and wanted to water their yard with it that seems like it should be ok.

QUOTE=venture79;610148]This is probably the best option. We need to evaluate areas, if there are any along the Canadian River and such, that we can dam up and create more storage areas for water. Not to mention just the overall impact of having a full river will have on property values and such. .[/QUOTE]
The quality of Canadian River water is very poor and would require some very expensive equipment to clean up the water. I can tell you that I have lived in a place where Canadian river water was used from Lake Meredith in the Texas panhandle and it was terrible.
QUOTE=venture79;610148]Should Norman be approving new developments on the fringes of town that require resources when that money should stick to the urban core to upgrade services? The city is still going to have to move forward with development. Maybe we just need to make sure that anyone North of Tecumseh south to the River and between West 48th and East 36th aren't connected to the Norman water system. If you want to live there, dig a well. Stupid? Absolutely. Just like putting any other developments on hold for this. That whole cutting off one's nose thing.[/QUOTE]
Like it or not the development on the city’s fringes is going to continue unabated so we might as well concentrate on workable solutions. But over time the vacant areas will slowly fill in. New construction pays a $4000 sewage hookup fee. I am not sure, but new construction might also pay higher water rates.

----------


## YO MUDA

Being a Gardner at OU, everyear I hear complaints about OUs use of water. Just remember we have our own wells. Regardless, most of us tone down our water usage during the summer to only keeping shrubs, trees and flower beds alive.

----------


## Dubya61

> Being a Gardner at OU, everyear I hear complaints about OUs use of water. Just remember we have our own wells. Regardless, most of us tone down our water usage during the summer to only keeping shrubs, trees and flower beds alive.


Do those wells magically only take water that's under OU and magically not deplete the water other wells may be able to use?

----------


## ou48A

> Being a Gardner at OU, everyear I hear complaints about OUs use of water. Just remember we have our own wells. Regardless, most of us tone down our water usage during the summer to only keeping shrubs, trees and flower beds alive.


Doesn’t OU use gray water for part of it needs?
In your estimation how hard would it be to expand gray water usage on OU’s campus?

----------


## venture

> Do those wells magically only take water that's under OU and magically not deplete the water other wells may be able to use?


Exactly. I remember growing up before we had city water and some idiot would be watering their entire yard and drained the water table. Had to redrill the well to get to a better water source.

----------


## ou48A

> Do those wells magically only take water that's under OU and magically not deplete the water other wells may be able to use?


It almost entirely depends on the geology and recharge rates of the aquifer in question.
FYI This water is being pumped from the Garber-Wellington aquifer.

----------


## Bunty

Norman needs to do the same as Stillwater did years ago.  Find a man made lake kept fed by a major river and build a 3 ft. wide pipeline to it.

----------


## venture

> Norman needs to do the same as Stillwater did years ago.  Find a man made lake kept fed by a major river and build a 3 ft. wide pipeline to it.


If you haven't noticed, there aren't many of those in this state. LOL

----------


## ou48A

> Norman needs to do the same as Stillwater did years ago.  Find a man made lake kept fed by a major river and build a 3 ft. wide pipeline to it.


Which major river would that be? and what lake is this?

----------


## yellowfever13

venture79, I am trying to contact you.  I guess you have disabled any messaging on this forum.  If you could email me at chadwilliamson1@gmail.com I would greatly appreciate it!  Thanks very much!

----------


## Bunty

> Which major river would that be? and what lake is this?


deleted

----------


## Bunty

> Which major river would that be? and what lake is this?


The only major river in Oklahoma is the Arkansas, the 6th longest one in the nation.  The reservoir is Kaw Lake, which would probably be too far away and costly for Norman to build a pipeline to it.  Interesting that the water level at Kaw Lake is only 6 inches below normal.

----------


## TAlan CB

The Red River is considered a major river by Geographers (only 100mile shorter than the Arkansas), but the water is too salty until it enters the far southeast of Oklahoma.  There has been a "final" settlement on the border between OK&TX, and so the rivers' meandering is now "in and out" of both states.  But, this aside, the Red is predominately in Oklahoma, historically the border was the southern bank.  Recently, Dallas and N.Tx have been trying to purchase water from SE OK - Hugo Lake, etc.  Thunderbird (Norman) needs to build a pipeline from there.  Draper gets its water from Atoka Res.  These rivers in SE OK enter the Red making it fresher water.  Texoma is considered non-potable for dinking purpose.

Don't let the large Arkansas River entering the next state fool you, in recent years it has been entering Oklahoma from Kansas nearly dry.  The Canadian(s), Neosho and Illinois River rivers turn the Arkansas into a major river in the east.
The same happens to the Red, with the  Kiamichi River, Blue, and Muddy Boggy turning the Red into a major river before it leaves the state.  These tributary rivers in SE Ok are untouched by large cities and this is what Dallas is after.

----------


## Bunty

Thanks for some interesting insight.  Lake Eufaula is much bigger and closer than Hugo Lake.  Is it no better than Texoma?  Edmond is better positioned to tap onto Kaw Lake, which is much bigger than Hugo Lake.

----------


## YO MUDA

> Doesn’t OU use gray water for part of it needs?
> In your estimation how hard would it be to expand gray water usage on OU’s campus?


  Yes sir we use non potable water for landscape. Your other question is above my pay grade and my education as well.

----------


## ou48A

> The Red River is considered a major river by Geographers (only 100mile shorter than the Arkansas), but the water is too salty until it enters the far southeast of Oklahoma.  There has been a "final" settlement on the border between OK&TX, and so the rivers' meandering is now "in and out" of both states.  But, this aside, the Red is predominately in Oklahoma, historically the border was the southern bank.  Recently, Dallas and N.Tx have been trying to purchase water from SE OK - Hugo Lake, etc.  Thunderbird (Norman) needs to build a pipeline from there.  Draper gets its water from Atoka Res.  These rivers in SE OK enter the Red making it fresher water.  Texoma is considered non-potable for dinking purpose.
> 
> Don't let the large Arkansas River entering the next state fool you, in recent years it has been entering Oklahoma from Kansas nearly dry.  The Canadian(s), Neosho and Illinois River rivers turn the Arkansas into a major river in the east.
> The same happens to the Red, with the  Kiamichi River, Blue, and Muddy Boggy turning the Red into a major river before it leaves the state.  These tributary rivers in SE Ok are untouched by large cities and this is what Dallas is after.



Good post^

Norman and the entire OKC area is going to grow probably well beyond what any of us can image.
I agree that the best long term option is the water in SE Oklahoma. But we should act before Texas has a chance to get their hand on this very high quality water.

----------


## ou48A

As water in the USA becomes a more valuable commodity having a good supply of very high quality water would give our area an advantage in attracting new business to our area.

I would like to see a major new water pipeline built that would be shared by several municipalities.
Our grand kids and beyond will thank us.

----------


## ou48A

> Yes sir we use non potable water for landscape. Your other question is above my pay grade and my education as well.


Thanks.
I hope OU and the city of Norman are looking at ways that could expand the usage of gray water.

The sewage plant in Moore is located just north of Norman. Maybe its gray water could be piped to parts of Norman, if they would agree and are not using it?

----------


## ou48A

> The only major river in Oklahoma is the Arkansas, the 6th longest one in the nation.  The reservoir is Kaw Lake, which would probably be too far away and costly for Norman to build a pipeline to it.  Interesting that the water level at Kaw Lake is only 6 inches below normal.


During heavy rains the Arkansas River picks up a lot of salt near Hutchinson Kansas…
It also picks up a lot of farm pollution run off….

I use to swim and fish in Kaw Lake but I stopped when I realized that that the toilet content of my numerous Kansas relatives
 was in that lake.

Note to self, drink only bottled water while in Stillwater.

----------


## venture

> Note to self, drink only bottled water while in Stillwater.


Stoolwater in Stillwater?  :Wink: 

I really think at some point we need to start building more water reservoirs in this state. From what I keep hearing, SE OK is the best place for that to happen. We don't have the luxury of the Great Lakes to feed us fresh drinking water, but whose to say we can' expand our own lake system to help compensate.

----------


## ou48A

> I really think at some point we need to start building more water reservoirs in this state. From what I keep hearing, SE OK is the best place for that to happen. We don't have the luxury of the Great Lakes to feed us fresh drinking water, but whose to say we can' expand our own lake system to help compensate.


I agree with you about the need to build more reservoirs in Oklahoma. 

However finding enough money won’t be easy. But much tougher would be to overcome all the new environmental laws and regulations in place. The Endangered Species Act needs to be reformed because it’s made it very difficult to construct new dams.



On the link below is an article disusing difficulties along with a map of potential Oklahoma dam sites.

The Barriers to Another Reservoir Building Boom in Oklahoma | StateImpact Oklahoma

----------


## ou48A

> Stoolwater in Stillwater?


As an avid follower of the Sooners I have enjoyed watching 3 of 4 parts of the OU produced history of OU football series. According to the film one hundred or more years ago a football game was often a side note to the main event which was a debate between the 2 universities. Out of the debates came university chants and cheers that were used later at the football games. Some of these chants and cheers still live on today at various university’s across the nation often reflecting something about that state or university’s heritage. One such OU chant that the OU debate team came up with went as follows………

*Stillwater! Stalewater! Muddy water too!
 A. and M. College is a Stale-water slough!*

I guess the more something’s change the more some stay the same even after all these years.
The OU debate team must be pretty good, because they have won several recent national championships.

----------


## venture

> I agree with you about the need to build more reservoirs in Oklahoma. 
> 
> However finding enough money won’t be easy. But much tougher would be to overcome all the new environmental laws and regulations in place. The Endangered Species Act needs to be reformed because it’s made it very difficult to construct new dams.
> 
> On the link below is an article disusing difficulties along with a map of potential Oklahoma dam sites.
> 
> The Barriers to Another Reservoir Building Boom in Oklahoma | StateImpact Oklahoma


Money shouldn't be that hard to find, but with them refunding taxes to Oil/Gas companies (up to what...96% for 2012) doesn't help matters. What's more important...drinking water for people or making sure Devon is all cushy in their pretty new tower.

----------


## ou48A

> but with them refunding taxes to Oil/Gas companies (up to what...96% for 2012) doesn't help matters.


What are you talking about?

----------


## venture

> What are you talking about?


It's been in the papers the last few days.

Holiday shopping helps boost tax revenues  Headlines  The Norman Transcript




> Total tax collections on oil and gas production last month were $8.3 million, a nearly 85 percent decrease from December 2011. For the first six months of the fiscal year, *oil and natural gas tax collections have plummeted nearly $231 million, or 94 percent*, from the same time a year ago, again *due almost entirely to the generous rebates* the state offers to energy companies.
> 
> The tax rebates that apply to most deep and horizontal wells were suspended for two years as lawmakers scrambled to fill a budget hole in 2010. Now the credits have come back on line and the state also is paying back those that were suspended for two years.


With the estimate that it will cost $100-150M for new water reservoirs, that is almost enough for 2 new ones right there.

----------


## onthestrip

Yes, there are some outdated tax incentives that are costing our state millions, while helping the large oil companies make millions more. Extreme corporate welfare going on. Read here:

Unnecessary and Unaffordable: The Case for Curbing Oklahoma?s Oil and Gas Tax Breaks | Oklahoma Policy Institute

----------


## ou48A

> It's been in the papers the last few days.
> 
> Holiday shopping helps boost tax revenues  Headlines  The Norman Transcript
> 
> 
> 
> With the estimate that it will cost $100-150M for new water reservoirs, that is almost enough for 2 new ones right there.


The oil and NG industry is responsible for paying far more in taxes than they would ever receive from state rebates. (See below) The rebates were put in place to help protect this source of revenue to state and local governments during times when prices are low….. Natural gas prices have been very low.

These are a few highlights of what the Oil & NG sector does for our state. 
As anyone can see it’s well worth the state’s efforts to keep the industry afloat when prices are low.

The 2011 a statewide average compensation per job was more than $113,000. (Find that anywhere else in Oklahoma)

Industry activity in 2011 set off long run economic impacts estimated to be:

 *$52 billion in gross state product, or one out of every $3 in GSP.*


o $28 billion in state personal income, or one out of every $5.
o 344,503 jobs, representing one out of every six jobs in the state.
Nearly $1 billion in direct gross production tax payments, including $504 million
in oil gross production taxes and another $459 million in natural gas gross
production tax payments.
o $2.35 billion in Federal Personal Income Tax payments.
o $700 million in State Personal Income Tax payments.
o $563 million in State Sales Tax payments.
o $503 million in Local Sales Tax payments

 Google…. : Oklahoma Oil and Natural Gas Industry Economic Impact ... - OERB

----------


## onthestrip

Great, they do good things. Its no reason to penalize our state or the citizens because of it. In 2010 the state couldnt even afford to pay out the credits to producers. We had to make a deal to extend the payments out for 3 years. Read more here:
The incredible disappearing gross production tax | Oklahoma Policy Institute

http://okpolicy.org/over-a-barrel-ho...of-294-million

----------


## Bunty

> During heavy rains the Arkansas River picks up a lot of salt near Hutchinson Kansas
> It also picks up a lot of farm pollution run off.
> 
> I use to swim and fish in Kaw Lake but I stopped when I realized that that the toilet content of my numerous Kansas relatives
>  was in that lake.
> 
> Note to self, drink only bottled water while in Stillwater.


You make a good case for OSU campus housing, since OSU gets its water from nearby Blackwell Lake and probably doesn't fluoridate its water, unlike Stillwater.

----------


## ou48A

> Great, they do good things. Its no reason to penalize our state or the citizens because of it. In 2010 the state couldnt even afford to pay out the credits to producers. We had to make a deal to extend the payments out for 3 years. Read more here:
> The incredible disappearing gross production tax | Oklahoma Policy Institute
> 
> Over a Barrel: How we ended up on the hook to oil and gas producers to the tune of $294 million | Oklahoma Policy Institute



The benefit to the state and local governments of paying rebates over the long run far outweighs any downside to the state. 
On this, it’s not even remotely close. 

When 1 out of 3 dollars of our states GSP is produced by the states oil and NG industry….. it’s really not even worth the time of further discussion.


Back to water…. Everybody needs to include prayers for generous rains in their normal prayers this Sunday.

----------


## venture

> The benefit to the state and local governments of paying rebates over the long run far outweighs any downside to the state. 
> On this, it’s not even remotely close. 
> 
> When 1 out of 3 dollars of our states GSP is produced by the states oil and NG industry….. it’s really not even worth the time of further discussion.
> 
> Back to water…. Everybody needs to include prayers for generous rains in their normal prayers this Sunday.


Nice deflection. Maybe once you get off the teet of oil companies you can be more reasonable in your discussions. We are in a water emergency in this state and we are letting tax dollar fly out the door for NO REASON. It's alright, let it continue. If what it takes is this state to have the house of cards come crumbling down to wake people up than so be it. If this drought continues to get worse water rates will have to go up which is going to make this place less desirable to live. The state needs to be collecting revenue it is do to take care of its citizens. If they aren't going to be doing that and we all have to go to well water, than so be it. So in an era of record profits and the oil industry doing very well...how is it they can't afford to pay their taxes?

----------


## onthestrip

> The benefit to the state and local governments of paying rebates over the long run far outweighs any downside to the state. 
> On this, it’s not even remotely close. 
> 
> When 1 out of 3 dollars of our states GSP is produced by the states oil and NG industry….. it’s really not even worth the time of further discussion.
> 
> 
> Back to water…. Everybody needs to include prayers for generous rains in their normal prayers this Sunday.


You dont even get it. The state HAD to make a deal to pay out over 3 years because the amount owed was A)way more than anticipated and B) we simply couldnt afford it all at once. 

But I guess the bigger and more profitable a industry gets we should give them more welfare? That doesnt make much sense.

----------


## ou48A

> Nice deflection. Maybe once you get off the teet of oil companies you can be more reasonable in your discussions. We are in a water emergency in this state and we are letting tax dollar fly out the door for NO REASON. It's alright, let it continue. If what it takes is this state to have the house of cards come crumbling down to wake people up than so be it. If this drought continues to get worse water rates will have to go up which is going to make this place less desirable to live. The state needs to be collecting revenue it is do to take care of its citizens. If they aren't going to be doing that and we all have to go to well water, than so be it. So in an era of record profits and the oil industry doing very well...how is it they can't afford to pay their taxes?


1 out of 3 dollars of our GSP comes from the oil and gas industry. Hurt it and you hurt your revenue tax base in a very big way and thus your ability to fund water infrastructure and many other things. You have got to see beyond the immediate moment and the immediate crisis.
 Our states leaders have on this issue. With NG prices so low they know it’s a wise investment.
It’s just this simple… Doing away with the rebates reduces the amount of our states energy production. This substantially reduces the total amount of taxes that are paid to federal, state, and local governments, not to mention all the other things they do.

We have been down this road before…. It would be very stupid to go back to the old methods as you sujest that have failed us before.

----------


## venture

> 1 out of 3 dollars of our GSP comes from the oil and gas industry. Hurt it and you hurt your revenue tax base in a very big way and thus your ability to fund water infrastructure and many other things. You have got to see beyond the immediate moment and the immediate crisis.
>  Our states leaders have on this issue. With NG prices so low they know it’s a wise investment.
> It’s just this simple… Doing away with the rebates reduces the amount of our states energy production. This substantially reduces the total amount of taxes that are paid to federal, state, and local governments, not to mention all the other things they do.
> 
> We have been down this road before…. It would be very stupid to go back to the old methods as you sujest that have failed us before.


How is $300M going to really hurt all of them when they are making billions? Why is corporate welfare good for one industry but not another? NG prices are so low because they overdrilled. There is too much supply. Well, they say there is too much supply but yet we still rely on foreign oil without making the changes needed to switch over to this mass supply that apparently exists. 

Our state needs revenue to fix its problems. Unless these oil and gas companies want to go out there and build the new water systems for us, we need to retain revenue and stop giving it away.

----------


## ou48A

> Nice deflection. Maybe once you get off the teet of oil companies you can be more reasonable in your discussions. We are in a water emergency in this state and we are letting tax dollar fly out the door for NO REASON. It's alright, let it continue. If what it takes is this state to have the house of cards come crumbling down to wake people up than so be it. If this drought continues to get worse water rates will have to go up which is going to make this place less desirable to live. The state needs to be collecting revenue it is do to take care of its citizens. If they aren't going to be doing that and we all have to go to well water, than so be it. So in an era of record profits and the oil industry doing very well...how is it they can't afford to pay their taxes?


For better or worse and like it or not this state lives on the teet of oil and natural gas companies. The numbers that I previously posted show this to be true. Like it or not! 
The house of cards did come crumbling down in the 1980’s ENERGY bust and it did wake up the leaders of our state up. Having lived through this chapter of our states history I know the pain that was felt state wide.
 Part of the solution that came from our states leaders was to help the industry during its down periods so that it could help provide revenue to the state on a more sustainable level. 

Not all energy is oil! Natural gas prices have been depressed qualifying companies for rebates as allowed by law…

----------


## ou48A

> How is $300M going to really hurt all of them when they are making billions? Why is corporate welfare good for one industry but not another? NG prices are so low because they overdrilled. There is too much supply. Well, they say there is too much supply but yet we still rely on foreign oil without making the changes needed to switch over to this mass supply that apparently exists. 
> 
> Our state needs revenue to fix its problems. Unless these oil and gas companies want to go out there and build the new water systems for us, we need to retain revenue and stop giving it away.


Apparently you don’t follow natural gas prices…. they are very low!
There are some natural gas companies who are losing money….. That qualifies them for state rebates. Its the law!

----------


## ou48A

> How is $300M going to really hurt all of them when they are making billions? Why is corporate welfare good for one industry but not another? NG prices are so low because they overdrilled. There is too much supply. Well, they say there is too much supply but yet we still rely on foreign oil without making the changes needed to switch over to this mass supply that apparently exists. 
> 
> Our state needs revenue to fix its problems. Unless these oil and gas companies want to go out there and build the new water systems for us, *we need to retain revenue and stop giving it away*.


We are not giving it away….. The rebates are like paying and insurance premium to insure future state revenue that pays off in far larger amounts and by many times…….That’s why it’s a state law.

----------


## venture

> Apparently you don’t follow natural gas prices…. they are very low!
> There are some natural gas companies who are losing money….. That qualifies them for state rebates. Its the law!


Then maybe they should start using more NG for power generation and cars? If it is so cheap, you would think these gas companies would be putting everything they could into making all cars use CNG.

----------


## venture

> We are not giving it away….. The rebates are like paying and insurance premium to insure future state revenue that pays off in far larger amounts and by many times…….That’s why it’s a state law.


Interesting spin. So every tax rebate is an insurance premium? So are you will to apply that to everything or are you going to show bias and only use it in special interests that you hold close?

----------


## onthestrip

> Apparently you don’t follow natural gas prices…. they are very low!
> There are some natural gas companies who are losing money….. That qualifies them for state rebates. Its the law!


Shouldnt be Oklahoma citizens that have to pay because Chesapeake is lousy at running a business.

----------


## ou48A

> How is $300M going to really hurt all of them when they are making billions? .


They are not all making billions…. 
This shows an extreme lack of knowledge on your part about the industry in our state!


Oklahoma has many very small oil and gas companies that collectively employ thousands. 
Many are basically mom and pop companies……
Doing away with the rebates would be a big blow to them. It would kill off much of their production and the taxes they pay to the state…..just as it has before when prices were low….

 Our states economy has lost untold billions because of lost production just like this.

----------


## ou48A

> Interesting spin. So every tax rebate is an insurance premium? So are you will to apply that to everything or are you going to show bias and only use it in special interests that you hold close?


I have received several tax credits for energy efficiency improvements at my home.
Using your brand of logic we should stop those too!

----------


## venture

> They are not all making billions…. 
> This shows an extreme lack of knowledge on your part about the industry in our state!
> 
> 
> Oklahoma has many very small oil and gas companies that collectively employ thousands. 
> Many are basically mom and pop companies……
> Doing away with the rebates would be a big blow to them. It would kill off much of their production and the taxes they pay to the state…..just as it has before when prices were low….
> 
> Our states economy has lost untold billions because of lost production just like this.


So does every mom and pop business get the ability to stop paying taxes then for the betterment of the economy? Heck we should just stop charging taxes at all with that way of thinking.




> I have received several tax credits for energy efficiency improvements at my home.
> Using your brand of logic we should stop those too!


Government is broke...so yes. I made several improvements to my home (new doors, roof, appliances, etc)...big deal. I'll enjoy the lower utility bills. There is my rebate.

----------


## onthestrip

> They are not all making billions…. 
> This shows an extreme lack of knowledge on your part about the industry in our state!
> 
> 
> Oklahoma has many very small oil and gas companies that collectively employ thousands. 
> Many are basically mom and pop companies……
> Doing away with the rebates would be a big blow to them. It would kill off much of their production and the taxes they pay to the state…..just as it has before when prices were low….
> 
>  Our states economy has lost untold billions because of lost production just like this.


How many mom and pops are drilling horizontal or deep wells? Which is what the credit that im referring goes to. And if you are drilling horizontal and deep wells, youve left the distinction of mom and pop a long time ago and moved on to large company status.

----------


## ou48A

> How many mom and pops are drilling horizontal or deep wells? Which is what the credit that im referring goes to. And if you are drilling horizontal and deep wells, youve left the distinction of mom and pop a long time ago and moved on to large company status.


When prices are low there are tax breaks that are granted for production. That’s what I was referring to.

----------


## ou48A

> So does every mom and pop business get the ability to stop paying taxes then for the betterment of the economy? Heck we should just stop charging taxes at all with that way of thinking.


A short term tax break is better than losing the business and tax revenue forever.
It’s a net win for the states residents.

----------


## ou48A

> Then maybe they should start using more NG for power generation and cars? If it is so cheap, you would think these gas companies would be putting everything they could into making all cars use CNG.


There are government tax incentives and in some cases company incentives to make the switch to NG.
The Fed government just lowered the price of NG for trucks and cars by 50 cents per gallon equivalent.

But you say the government is broke. So it looks like we can’t afford any tax help.




> Government is broke...

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I don't really want to get into another argument, but the government is broke. Sometimes it's best to try and to live within your means instead of relying on the government for everything.

----------


## ou48A

> I don't really want to get into another argument, but the government is broke. Sometimes it's best to try and to live within your means instead of relying on the government for everything.




I agree with you that the GOV is broke. But I also believe in prosperity and security for our state and nation.

If we can do things that add to our states prosperity and security it’s smart.
If we can decreases spending of the type that does not add to our prosperity and security, that’s smart too. 
But we never seem to get around to making enough of those types of cuts. 
In fact we have been rapidly increasing our spending in areas that do not add to our prosperity or security.

----------


## venture

> A short term tax break is better than losing the business and tax revenue forever.
> It’s a net win for the states residents.


So we should be giving them back tax dollars because they have a failed business model and over produced instead of properly planning? What next? Tax dollars going back to airlines when fuel prices are too high or people didn't feel like going to Florida that year? Funny. They seem to remain one of the highest taxed industries in the world, but yet I don't see people saying they should get huge rebates so they pay in next to nothing.

----------


## Dubya61

> During heavy rains the Arkansas River picks up a lot of salt near Hutchinson Kansas
> It also picks up a lot of farm pollution run off.
> 
> I use to swim and fish in Kaw Lake but I stopped when I realized that that the toilet content of my numerous Kansas relatives
>  was in that lake.
> 
> Note to self, drink only bottled water while in Stillwater.


Friend, there's only so much water out there, and unless you're collecting it straight from some sort of purification system (natural or man-made), you should probably consider it tainted in some fashion.  I would not characterize Kaw Lake's water (or that of any reservoir) as toilet water, but surely you realize that even fish defecate.  They've been doing it for some time, now.

Lots of people I've worked with agree with the idea that energy supplies are far less important and valuable than water supplies.  I wonder if the future solution to water problems won't be desalinization and transportation of (the rising level of) sea water.

----------


## ou48A

> So we should be giving them back tax dollars because they have a failed business model and over produced instead of properly planning? What next? Tax dollars going back to airlines when fuel prices are too high or people didn't feel like going to Florida that year? Funny. They seem to remain one of the highest taxed industries in the world, but yet I don't see people saying they should get huge rebates so they pay in next to nothing.



Many oil producers have operated under the thumb of OPEC which they have absolutely no control over their business model. This has a direct impact on you and everyone else.
OPEC has taken actions that include everything from an oil embargo against the USA to flooding the worlds markets with very cheap crude as they did in the 90’s when our economy boomed.
Normal business models don’t work for long in the oil business on the production side.

Most everyone has long known that it makes the US economy more prosperous when we protect our self to the extent we can from OPEC actions that have caused great impact to ordinary Americans.

----------


## ou48A

> So we should be giving them back tax dollars because they have a failed business model and over produced instead of properly planning? What next? Tax dollars going back to airlines when fuel prices are too high or people didn't feel like going to Florida that year? Funny. They seem to remain one of the highest taxed industries in the world, but yet I don't see people saying they should get huge rebates so they pay in next to nothing.


The world goes around because of oil….. No other industry except for agriculture which is another strategic resource has such an impact on the modern world and it won’t likely change much in our lifetimes. These dwarf the airline industry and most other industries in scale and impact. All need good water.

----------


## ou48A

> Friend, there's only so much water out there, and unless you're collecting it straight from some sort of purification system (natural or man-made), you should probably consider it tainted in some fashion.  I would not characterize Kaw Lake's water (or that of any reservoir) as toilet water, but surely you realize that even fish defecate.  They've been doing it for some time, now.
> 
> Lots of people I've worked with agree with the idea that energy supplies are far less important and valuable than water supplies.  I wonder if the future solution to water problems won't be desalinization and transportation of (the rising level of) sea water.


LOL, yes I know…. It was more about the Stoolwater to Stillwater comparisons. :Wink: 

As you probably know there are desalinization plants around the world. As far as I know they all require huge amounts of energy making them pretty impractical for most.
There are 2 sources that I know of where fresh water in or near our state could be cleaned up by having the salt content reduced. One involves building a by-pass starting near the Kansas boarder and around the great Salt Plains Lake in NW Oklahoma. There are 2 places that could be plugged or diverted that would reduce the salt content of the Red River.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I agree with you that the GOV is broke. But I also believe in prosperity and security for our state and nation.
> 
> If we can do things that add to our states prosperity and security its smart.
> If we can decreases spending of the type that does not add to our prosperity and security, thats smart too. 
> But we never seem to get around to making enough of those types of cuts. 
> In fact we have been rapidly increasing our spending in areas that do not add to our prosperity or security.


I agree with you on most points. However, and this just my opinion(don't hate me for it  :Wink:  ), I really don't think you should've gotten a tax rebate or credits for installing energy efficient improvements to your house. The reason being, I think people should have responsibility to make their houses energy efficient and I think as the energy saving technology gets cheaper, the government needs to start forcing people to do it. Our planet only has so many resources and no matter how far out it is until we run out of them, I think it is our duty to be as efficient as possibly when it comes to power. Until we develop the technology to go out and harvest distant suns and maybe even a quasar that is  :Wink:

----------


## ou48A

> I agree with you on most points. However, and this just my opinion(don't hate me for it  ), I really don't think you should've gotten a tax rebate or credits for installing energy efficient improvements to your house. The reason being, I think people should have responsibility to make their houses energy efficient and I think as the energy saving technology gets cheaper, the government needs to start forcing people to do it. Our planet only has so many resources and no matter how far out it is until we run out of them, I think it is our duty to be as efficient as possibly when it comes to power. Until we develop the technology to go out and harvest distant suns and maybe even a quasar that is




Plutonic Panda, I would never hate you!

Many of these types of rebates / credits on energy efficient home improvements are intended to help reduce pollution and help industry’s that are new that produce products that reduce pollution. These types of rebates are often done for ideological reasons… I am not sure if these programs are a net gain for the economy or not but if they are then I am all for them. But if they are not a net gain then IMO they should be ended. But the money I have saved has helped my personal economy. But that’s the way I am with many government program because that’s the path to prosperity.

By far my biggest expense was when I installed a Geo thermal heat and air system to my home. It was manufacture in OKC. It would have been silly of me to have not taken advantage of the tax credit and a rebate from OG&E. 

Most people take advantage of tax rebates & credits opportunities whenever they can.
The mortgage deduction is probably the biggest one that individual use.
If we don’t like these laws / programs then we need to work to repeal them.

----------


## ljbab728

I stopped by this thread, hoping to see something about the Norman water supply issues.  I guess I got to the wrong thread.  LOL

----------


## Bunty

> I stopped by this thread, hoping to see something about the Norman water supply issues.  I guess I got to the wrong thread.  LOL


No wonder.  There are no great solutions.  What if the cost to build a pipeline to Hugo Lake is, let's guess, $500 million?  Would Norman residents want to raise city sales tax by a penny or two to pay for it?  Is Hugo Lake really big enough?

----------


## TAlan CB

Good question, others think so:
Controversy over water sales

In recent years Hugo Lake has been in the middle of a controversy regarding out-of-state water sales between Texas and Oklahoma. The city of Hugo had sought to sell water to the growing suburbs of Dallas that need new sources of water to pay debts related to the lake. Irving, Texas has entered negotiations with the Hugo to obtain a supply of fresh water by building a pipeline and purchasing excess water from Hugo Lake. In 2002 the Oklahoma state legislature passed a moratorium on water sales outside the state. Hugo sued the state in federal court citing that the state's moratorium is unconstitutional.[5]

That was an article found in Wikipedia.....  

As to being big enough?  How big does it need to be especially if it is to add to Thunderbird, not replace.  Thunderbird is about 5,400 acres, Hugo is 13,200 acres.

----------


## TAlan CB

Up the stream from Lake Hugo is Lake Sardis as part of the same drainage basin on the Kiamichi River.  It is even larger than Hugo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ke_and_Dam.jpg

This singular river basin has large capacity that is already being sought after by Texas and Oklahoma City metro.  But there are complications as this article from the New York Times points out....

When the Choctaw did have reservations, their land covered virtually all of southeastern Oklahoma and was watered by the Kiamichi River, whose tributary, Jackfork Creek, was impounded by the Sardis Dam in 1982. The tribes’ goals are to have some ownership and control over the water, to keep as much water as possible in the lake and to enhance southeastern Oklahoma’s recreational industry.

And, assuming the water is valuable, they want to share in the profits from selling or leasing it.

That prospect is unsettling for places that could face water shortages, like Oklahoma City and suburbs like Edmond, whose City Council has already voted to issue $102.5 million in bonds to help bring Sardis Lake water 110 miles north, to the taps of new homes. It is even more unsettling in the Southwest, where irrigated agriculture and industries consume most of the available water.

----------


## ou48A

> No wonder.  There are no great solutions.  What if the cost to build a pipeline to Hugo Lake is, let's guess, $500 million?  Would Norman residents want to raise city sales tax by a penny or two to pay for it?  Is Hugo Lake really big enough?


I would like to see a very large pipeline built from the lakes in south eastern OK to the central Oklahoma area with the water going to participating municipalities, including Norman.

When a major job expansion occurs all of central Oklahoma sees growth. I believe we need to look at this as a regional project with the cost and benefits shared by many.

I believe that Norman voters would pass a sales tax increase for water expansion (and for commuter rail). Because Norman has so many visitors spending money in Norman I would be in favor of a sales tax increase to cover at least part of the projects cost.

----------


## ou48A

> Up the stream from Lake Hugo is Lake Sardis as part of the same drainage basin on the Kiamichi River.  It is even larger than Hugo:
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ke_and_Dam.jpg
> 
> This singular river basin has large capacity that is already being sought after by Texas and Oklahoma City metro.  But there are complications as this article from the New York Times points out....
> 
> When the Choctaw did have reservations, their land covered virtually all of southeastern Oklahoma and was watered by the Kiamichi River, whose tributary, Jackfork Creek, was impounded by the Sardis Dam in 1982. The tribes’ goals are to have some ownership and control over the water, to keep as much water as possible in the lake and to enhance southeastern Oklahoma’s recreational industry.
> 
> And, assuming the water is valuable, they want to share in the profits from selling or leasing it.
> ...


Assuming we decided to build a pipeline to SE Oklahoma would we be in for a long court battle with the Choctaw’s over the water?
Hopefully they would be more agreeable to sell to people in their own home state than to out of state cities.

But it would be a wise move on our part to act on this issue ASAP, before an agreement is reached with any of the Texas cities making this source of water no longer available to us!

----------


## LocoAko

Went to Lake Thunderbird today (the western side, under the Alameda bridge). I'm still relatively new to the area, but it was shocking to see how low it was. Pretty depressing, actually. Don't mind the huge dead fish... I thought it was worth documenting, lol.

555302_10151250646039200_1990084147_n.jpg
550637_10151250645999200_1750104853_n.jpg
537434_10151250645634200_1104255888_n.jpg
530676_10151250646024200_253237946_n.jpg
734197_10151250647684200_1824606062_n.jpg
23375_10151250646989200_1782997394_n.jpg

----------


## kevinpate

Reminds me of early summer 2006.

----------


## TAlan CB

Perhaps this may not be as expensive or difficult as we think.  The 5' pipe that comes to Lake Draper from Atoka Res. has recently been repaired.  That is the reason Draper was empty for more than a year.  In SE Ok lakes Atoka, Sardis, & Hugo form a triangle - with Atoka the farthest west in the center.  It is only 50 miles from lake Hugo to Atoka, and about the same from Lake Sardis to Atoka.  Pipe lines could be built from each of these lakes to Atoka.  And from Draper to Thunderbird.  In this manner, the drain on any one lake would be less, the cost for construction less.  This COMBINED with water useage restrictions (habit changes) creates a greatly decreased demand with a more secure supply.  Yes the Indians would charge, but I suspect not much. The Chickasaw are very supportive of growth in a responsible manner - the Choctaw, who knows.

I have lived in the SE US in cities that are seeing their supply lakes dry up in minor (realitive) droughts.  Here, city supported refunds on low-flow toilets, shower heads, and retrictions on yard irrigation greatly decreased water consumption.  I use to laugh at them because they would grow grasses that would require much more watering (like fescues and ryes) just so they could have year-round green yards.  Bermuda grasses grew fine, but all the northern transplants wanted their year-round green.  Slowly they are learning.  By severly restricting irragation - just enough to keep the bermuda alive through the winter, water consumption was greatly reduced.  In the long-run, xeroscaping and using native plants would be best, but there can be lots of saving just by strictly enforcing (expensive fines for repeat violators) irrigation regulations.  This is especially true in Oklahoma where 'summer grasses' are used extensively.

The water is there, if you have the foresight to plan, invest, and use it wisely.  The days of waste are taking their toll.  But the biggest toll is on the minds of the people who expect everything with little or no cost.  Low flow toilets work fine (no, you don't have to flush again), low flow shower heads are easy to get use to.  Our forefathers in Oklahoma sought out and built lakes because of their experience with the great droughts early in the previous century.  It is up to modern Oklahomans to use these new resources wisely, or you to will once again become 'Okies' leaving the land you destroyed.

----------


## BG918

> Reminds me of early summer 2006.


Yeah I remember that summer well.  We had terrible drought and fires, and Norman was worried about running out of water.  Then came summer 2007 and its record rainfall which carried into 2008 and 2009..

Hopefully we have one of those on the horizon.

----------


## venture

We just need one tropical storm to move up from the Gulf and sit for a month again. That will do wonders to fix the problem. We just need to find a way to keep the water though once we have it.

----------

