# Civic Matters > Ask Anything About OKC >  OKC/Tulsa Metroplex?

## Plutonic Panda

Do any of you think that Oklahoma City and Tulsa might one day form a metroplex, similar to Dallas/Fort Worth, and maybe build joint projects like an international airport(DFW International), high speed rail, super highway ect.? I was thinking it could be a possibility but then again Oklahoma City and Tulsa are very different cities and are farther apart than Dallas and Fort Worth.

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## kevinpate

There's at least a couple of decades of infill needed locally before trying to gobble and fill the 90 or so miles of open land and small town Americana between okc and t-town.

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## bombermwc

I'd say that distance is one that will never be brought together. Both cities seem to be growing in opposite directions anyway. Tulsa to the South and East, OKC to the North and West....or really any direction.

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## mmonroe

Well, some day I'd like to see us link Lawton, Enid, OKC, Tulsa, Muskogee, Pauls Valley, Ardmore, and Ft. Smith all in High Speed (Bullet Train Japan Style *ninja sound) rail...  These are our states "Big City's" (Don't quote me on that) but i'd like to see us all connected.

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## adaniel

If it weren't for the fact that the major highway between the 2 is a turnpike with very restricted access you may see some more growth between the two. Plus 100 miles is quite a distance for two cities to grow together. 

I will say if Tulsa were located near, say Stroud, that would put it approximately 55 miles from downtown OKC. That would be far enough for two cities to retain separate identities yet close enough for more interaction between the two, similar to Baltimore-Washington.

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## venture

Yeah have to agree. TUL/OKC would likely never grow together. Just too far apart. Still have a lot more local infill to grow. Especially between OKC and Norman. Though I will say over the last 5-10 years that has really boomed and there isn't as much open land as their use to be. Heck I-35 has lights all the way now (when they are on).  :Smile: 

For the size of Oklahoma though, geographically, it would be disappointing to see things consolidated between just the two biggest cities. It would be incredibly painful for the Western parts of the state that would be left out in the cold. Especially in terms of air service adding another hour or more to their drive to fly would be devastating to some communities. Though I guess it would help prop LAW up more. Oklahoma has a lot more growing to do first and expanding the smaller communities we have to bring more balance to the state.

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## Spartan

Oh noes it's this thread again

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## venture

> Oh noes it's this thread again


http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=29164

Perhaps you should read that before posting a response in these threads?

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## RadicalModerate

I think that I heard that a Mega-Airport Site is for sale somewhere in the vicinity of Stroud.
And that The Price is Right. (it may even be a long-term bargain).
Yet we are all aware of the pitfalls of actually buying into humbug.
Plus the recent outbreaks of earthquakes in that vicinity
could up the costs of runway construction/maintenance.

(although, i must say that FortCollinsradoSprings, CO seems to be doing OK . . .
or so i've heard, along with all of the expected grumbling about now as compared
to how it used to be.... =)

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## mmonroe

Can someone explain to me why we still have a turnpike?  I thought we were to end it when it was paid for?  Why does the Memorial Road area have a Turnpike?  It all just seems nutty to me.

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## Drake

> Well, some day I'd like to see us link Lawton, Enid, OKC, Tulsa, Muskogee, Pauls Valley, Ardmore, and Ft. Smith all in High Speed (Bullet Train Japan Style *ninja sound) rail...  These are our states "Big City's" (Don't quote me on that) but i'd like to see us all connected.


So what would the cost on something like that run and who would utilize it?

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## Snowman

> I think that I heard that a Mega-Airport Site is for sale somewhere in the vicinity of Stroud.
> And that The Price is Right. (it may even be a long-term bargain).
> ...


You may be thinking of the Clinton/Sherman Airport, though it is not where you expect it to be.

I do not see OKC/Tulsa sprawling together, certainly not in our lifetimes, even the widest tips of LA are not that far apart. It looks like Bristow may be the only rural city along i44 between OKC & Tulsa that did not have negative population growth, even then it's growth was roughly 1/3 of either of OKC or Tulsa.

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## Larry OKC

> Can someone explain to me why we still have a turnpike?  I thought we were to end it when it was paid for?  Why does the Memorial Road area have a Turnpike?  It all just seems nutty to me.


I hate turnpikes.

That said, while that is what we were told, there is a loophole that as long as any of the State's turnpikes are still being paid for, none of the turnpikes are paid for. To avoid having them be paid for, they will expand and add ones from time to time. Reportedly, if they ended the turnpike, it would be turned over to ODOT(?) and then the Legislature would have to come up with funds for maint. etc. As they are, the Turnpikes don't receive appropriated money from the Legislature and are largely self supporting.

The Memorial area turnpike serves as another option for folks that want to bypass all of the stop-n-go traffic on Memorial, at highway speeds. You can get from the northern edge of the City out to Yukon without having to go through the congestion of downtown traffic either.Although if one doesn't have a Pike Pass, you still have to stop for those pesky toll booths from time to time.

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## BoulderSooner

> I hate turnpikes.
> 
> That said, while that is what we were told, there is a loophole that as long as any of the State's turnpikes are still being paid for, none of the turnpikes are paid for. To avoid having them be paid for, they will expand and add ones from time to time. Reportedly, if they ended the turnpike, it would be turned over to ODOT(?) and then the Legislature would have to come up with funds for maint. etc. As they are, the Turnpikes don't receive appropriated money from the Legislature and are largely self supporting.
> 
> The Memorial area turnpike serves as another option for folks that want to bypass all of the stop-n-go traffic on Memorial, at highway speeds. You can get from the northern edge of the City out to Yukon without having to go through the congestion of downtown traffic either.Although if one doesn't have a Pike Pass, you still have to stop for those pesky toll booths from time to time.


not a loophole ..... it was voted on and passed by the public to combine all the turnpikes in the state into 1 authority .. and combine debt

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## RadicalModerate

> Well, some day I'd like to see us link Lawton, Enid, OKC, Tulsa, Muskogee, Pauls Valley, Ardmore, and Ft. Smith all in High Speed (Bullet Train Japan Style *ninja sound) rail...  These are our states "Big City's" (Don't quote me on that) but i'd like to see us all connected.


A "bullet train" . . . Yeah . . . That's the ticket . . .

All of the folks in (for example)
Moore--Norman--Noble--Purcell--Wynnewood--Davis and Dougherty
or
Edmond--Arcadia--Luther--Wellston--Chandler--Stroud--Bristow and Sapulpa
could go out to the tracks and watch the train speed by for free entertainment . . .

It would be sort of like The Interstate Highway System for The New Millennium.

Another benefit of this plan would certainly be the huge improvments in the taxi fleets of Ardmore, Enid, Tulsa, Muskogee and that town in Western Arkansas. (Unless you meant Fort Supply  =). Well . . . Taxis or Ride-and-Share Bicycles/Pedalcabs.

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## mmonroe

Radical.... really?  You take something fun and make it not fun.

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## Larry OKC

> not a loophole ..... it was voted on and passed by the public to combine all the turnpikes in the state into 1 authority .. and combine debt


When was this? I just figured it was more shenanigans by our elected public servants, so thanks for the correction. Was that provision understood by the voters in the summation that appeared on the ballot, or was it even mentioned?

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## RadicalModerate

> Radical.... really?  You take something fun and make it not fun.


Not fun for whom?
Even the people standing at the train station watching the thing "whoosh" by are having fun.
Unless they expected to actually be able to board the train, of course.  That wouldn't be fun.

And at the "Termini" of the bullet train routes, they could even have horse-drawn carriages in addition to the extra taxis and so forth so that you can get around town.

It would really be fun if they developed a New! Improved!! train horn to add to the excitement.
Maybe like something from Star Trek.
Even though there is no actual point to any sounds emanating from a spaceship because there is no air to carry the sound waves.
(And who are all those decorative flashing lights on all those sorts of vehicles for, anyways?)

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## BoulderSooner

> When was this? I just figured it was more shenanigans by our elected public servants, so thanks for the correction. Was that provision understood by the voters in the summation that appeared on the ballot, or was it even mentioned?


it was in 1954 ..        so you will have to forgive that i can't really tell you how well the voters understood     :Smile:

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## RadicalModerate

In 1954 few people questioned The Government.
(i certainly didn't, but i was only two years old)

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## venture

I guess I look at the turnpikes and enjoy that they are mostly well kept when I have to use them. Do we really want ODOT to take them over to where they eat out of the same budget as the rest of the highway budget? I'm good with them still have tolls. I don't use them that much, but when I have to go the direction they do I have no problem paying.

I still would really like to see a couple new highways added and the turnpike program would probably be the only way for them to happen. 
1) Eastern Loop from East Norman to I-44 - to finally provide a true 2nd option to go north.
2) Extension from I-44/SH 34 near Newcastle to North Norman.

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## HangryHippo

> A "bullet train" . . . Yeah . . . That's the ticket . . .
> 
> All of the folks in (for example)
> Moore--Norman--Noble--Purcell--Wynnewood--Davis and Dougherty
> or
> Edmond--Arcadia--Luther--Wellston--Chandler--Stroud--Bristow and Sapulpa
> could go out to the tracks and watch the train speed by for free entertainment . . .
> 
> It would be sort of like The Interstate Highway System for The New Millennium.
> ...


Why in the hell do you write your posts like some cryptic poem with all the weird formatting?  It's beyond annoying.

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## Larry OKC

*OnlyOne*: Thats just his "style", ran across it over in Steve's blog 1st, quickly adjusted to it...just scroll by his posts or go to the extreme of blocking them if they are that annoying.

*venture79*: I generally agree but object when told one thing and they did another (even if voter approved eons ago...sorry, I wasn't born until '63) also think you should get some sort of discount if you have to slow down for construction etc along the way, after all one of the reason folks are willing to pay to use a turnpike is for the higher speed limits and quickly getting from point A & B...

Isn't there a "spur" from Newcastle to Norman already? Was pretty sure we were on it the last time I was down near Chickasha a couple of years ago???

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## venture

> Isn't there a "spur" from Newcastle to Norman already? Was pretty sure we were on it the last time I was down near Chickasha a couple of years ago???


There is, but that is only going to help get you from Norman to SW OK. It does little in the way of providing a western loop to get you up to WRWA or the West Metro area any faster.

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## Spartan

> http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=29164
> 
> Perhaps you should read that before posting a response in these threads?


Ouch. I was just commenting that this Tulsa-OKC CMSA idea seems to come up every other year, cyclically.

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## RadicalModerate

_Why in the hell do you write your posts like some cryptic poem with all the weird formatting? It's beyond annoying._ 

Obviously, the only rational answer to your question would be that I apparently have a previously unknown mission. That mission is to annoy you.  I would venture a guess that you also find Sudoku, M. C. Escher, Mitch Hedberg, Firesign Theater and e.e. cummings annoying, but I could be wrong about that too. So, is this version any less annoying?

_a bullet train yeah that's the ticket all of the folks in for example moore norman noble purcell wynnewood davis and dougherty or edmond arcadia luther wellston chandler stroud bristow and sapulpa could go out to the tracks and watch the train speed by for free entertainment it would be sort of like the interstate highway system for the new millennium another benefit of this plan would certainly be the huge improvements in the taxi fleets of ardmore, enid, tulsa, muskogee and that town in western arkansas unless you meant fort supply well taxis or ride-and-share bicycles/pedalcabs._

Probably not (less annoying). I find James Joyce's "stream of consciousness" style a bit annoying and cryptic myself.

Did I just hear the sound of one hand clapping?  Or was it the sound of one "Ignore" button being pushed by a formerly upraised middle finger? In retrospect, I suppose that a simple "ouch" or {sob} would have sufficed, and I apologize, in advance, for any further annoyance on your part.  Not that I can do anything about it.

Nor can I do anything about the fact that I doubt seriously that the answer to the question *OKC/Tulsa Metroplex?* is yes.

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## Edgar

we can't even managed to repair our crumbling capital and folks are talking about high speed rail? Never in this joint. Ok once had leaders of vision, Kerr, Bellman- no more.

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## Just the facts

> A "bullet train" . . . Yeah . . . That's the ticket . . .
> 
> All of the folks in (for example)
> Moore--Norman--Noble--Purcell--Wynnewood--Davis and Dougherty
> or
> Edmond--Arcadia--Luther--Wellston--Chandler--Stroud--Bristow and Sapulpa
> could go out to the tracks and watch the train speed by for free entertainment . . .
> 
> It would be sort of like The Interstate Highway System for The New Millennium.
> ...


https://sites.google.com/site/okcrail/home

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## Rover

I am glad I found this thread.  I had started to believe reality was breaking out on the board.  Now I know that isn't so.

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## Bunty

> Well, some day I'd like to see us link Lawton, Enid, OKC, Tulsa, Muskogee, Pauls Valley, Ardmore, and Ft. Smith all in High Speed (Bullet Train Japan Style *ninja sound) rail...  These are our states "Big City's" (Don't quote me on that) but i'd like to see us all connected.


Why Pauls Valley?  Why not Stillwater, so people in the other cities can ride the bullet train to Pickens Stadium and other events at OSU and Stillwater.  People from organizations in OKC and Tulsa might like to get together in Stillwater for meetings.

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## Bunty

> I am glad I found this thread.  I had started to believe reality was breaking out on the board.  Now I know that isn't so.


Right.  Reality is usually too dang boring to contemplate.

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## RadicalModerate

_Ref. GoogleMapLink, above (Post #28)(c/o Just the facts)_

In the "reality" currently under discussion, wouldn't a "bullet train"--by defintion and interpretation--necessarily involve the by-passing of every possible passenger pickup target on the way to/between The Biggest Cities in Oklahoma?  Stopping and starting at all intermediate points would be more like The Freight Trains o' The Late Fifties (with a couple of antique passenger cars attached) or a two year old throwing his model train at The Legoland Christmas Village in a pouting fit of jealous rage.

It certainly could not be defined as what many people think up when they hear the phrase--or read the words--representing "bullet train".  I think even the Japanese who invented them would agree.

(Note: Please do not misconstrue/misinterpret any of that as a statement that I don't think the idea of passenger trains is a bad idea. I think it is an excellent idea. I LOVE "trains" and don't even turn up my nose at the recent "Union Pacific" ads on television. It's just all those pesky details, and financing alternatives in order to realize the vision and so forth.)

PS: NPR is doing some pro/antipaganda on this very issue right now
on All Things Considered
. . . 4:19PM  =)

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## Just the facts

> _Ref. GoogleMapLink, above (Post #28)(c/o Just the facts)_
> 
> In the "reality" currently under discussion, wouldn't a "bullet train"--by defintion and interpretation--necessarily involve the by-passing of every possible passenger pickup target on the way to/between The Biggest Cities in Oklahoma?  Stopping and starting at all intermediate points would be more like The Freight Trains o' The Late Fifties (with a couple of antique passenger cars attached) or a two year old throwing his model train at The Legoland Christmas Village in a pouting fit of jealous rage.


Lawton, OKC, and Tulsa would be connected by non-stop express trains running hourly.  They would also be served by local trains that made all the intermediate stops.  If you live in Chickasha and want to go to Tulsa you take the local train to OKC and then connect to a non-stop express to get to Tulsa.

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## RadicalModerate

I guess that a bullet train would require a whole new set of tracks running next to the existing track anyway so I guess that would work . . .  I wonder if enough local people share the love of trains and train travel to make all of this feasible.

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## Snowman

A true bullet train would need a straighter and leveler path than existing tracks, the current ones look every bit the part they were payed by the mile to construct.

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## Just the facts

> I guess that a bullet train would require a whole new set of tracks running next to the existing track anyway so I guess that would work . . .  I wonder if enough local people share the love of trains and train travel to make all of this feasible.


It is about being able to keep the economy moving with $5, $6, and $7 gasoline.  When gas gets to $4 per gallon the economy tanks and gas goes back down.  This causes the economy to show signs of improvement which causes gas to go back up, which leads to the next downturn.  We have to break the cycle.

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## Just the facts

> A true bullet train would need a straighter and leveler path than existing tracks, the current ones look every bit the part they were payed by the mile to construct.


Not only that but there are tons of at-grade crossings as well thanks in large part to section line roads.  Those crossings will all need to be removed.

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## RadicalModerate

Why couldn't they just make the "bullet train" run in an underground tunnel?  Or "a barrel for the bullet" so to speak. (Like a high speed subway). They could make the grade of the bottom of the tunnel as level as they wanted to.  Plus a tunnel is probably less expensive than an elevated, monorailesque track.  They could have video screens, where the windows would be, showing the scenery that is being passed. Plus this would obviate the need for those pesky, annoying train horns.

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## bombermwc

Well anything can be built given enough cash. If they want to build a fast train, they'll just have to fork out the cash to do it. Although the same problem would exist as does today....what do you do once you GET to Tulsa? Their bus system is a LITTLE better, but still not really a mass transit option. It doesn't even go out to some of the burbs. And in OKC...unless you drive to park to get on the train, then you can't get to it because of our bad busses. And with the time you'd have to wait for a train to leave (cause let's be real, you aren't going to get more than 1 on the line, and it's not going to be every 30 minutes in both directions), so you can really drive to Tulsa more quickly than even a super fast train gets you there (overall time, not just travel). And for less than what a train ride would cost because it's not going to be as cheap as Amtrack. 

You really need a trip like Dallas to make it worth it. And you need transit once you get there. Today, the available resources make it cheaper/faster/more convenient to still take your own car. Now plug in some Go-Cars on either end and you make HUGE progress. But those trains have to be leaving often as well...and given the amount of residential traffic on that road, i doubt we could fill (remember not everyone is going to ride) the train over and over in a regular day. Make it connect up to Kansas City and all points onward, and you get a whole other level of possibilties as well....ie Obama's transit plan.

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, i'm just trying to keep all the parts in mind.

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## Just the facts

> Although the same problem would exist as does today....what do you do once you GET to Tulsa?


Tulsa, Lawton, and OKC are all planning streetcars.  Development follows transportation systems so businesses will locate around train stations.  You already see this happening in OKC with "things to do" locating along the proposed streetcar route.

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## RadicalModerate

I hope they have trolleys or rickshaws to The Philbrook and The Gilcrease.
Near as I can tell, those are about the only reasons to visit Tulsa.
(Just kidding--sort of. There are some interesting restaurants within walking distance of The Philbrook)
(Sorry about the weird/annoying cryptic formatting)

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## Just the facts

I would have to go back and review Tulsa's proposed route but since the train arrives on a fixed schedule Philbrook and Gilcrease could run a dedicated shuttle bus.  However, I suspect most weekday travelers will be business travelers so a supply of Zip cars would be in order.

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## RadicalModerate

Have you ever been to The Philbrook or The Gilcrease?
There is a Holiday Inn Express--an architectually sensitive one involving the recycling of an historic building--within easy walking distance of the latter.

Are the "Zip cars" solar powered? Or do they rely on hydrogen fusion? Maybe solar-powered magnets?

Awaiting the results of your Tulsa review.
Mr. Tesla is getting impatient. =)

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## Just the facts

Zip cars run on gasoline.

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## RadicalModerate

And therin lies the fly in the ointment.
Metaphorically speaking, of course. =)

_"Not only that but there are tons of at-grade crossings . . ."_ 
Are at-grade crossings measured in tons?
Or committed dollars?

(please do not take that as dis-appreciation of Your Vision, JTF. 
with apologies for the weird, annoying formatting.
thank you . . . in advance =)

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## Just the facts

A ton is a numerical unit - only in the US and a few other countries does it mean 2000 pounds (since the vast majority of countries use kilograms as the unit of mass - or Newtons to express metric weight).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton




> The ton is a unit of measure. It has a long history and has acquired a number of meanings and uses over the years. It is used principally as a unit of weight, and as a unit of volume. It can also be used as a measure of energy, for truck classification, *or as a colloquial term*.

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## RadicalModerate

Now, Isaac Newton is standing next to Mr. Tesla . . .
Waiting, to board The Train to (or from) Tulsa.
Without cell phones or computers.
i think he may be munching on an apple?

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## NoOkie

> Why couldn't they just make the "bullet train" run in an underground tunnel?  Or "a barrel for the bullet" so to speak. (Like a high speed subway). They could make the grade of the bottom of the tunnel as level as they wanted to.  Plus a tunnel is probably less expensive than an elevated, monorailesque track.  They could have video screens, where the windows would be, showing the scenery that is being passed. Plus this would obviate the need for those pesky, annoying train horns.


That's actually been proposed off and on for decades.  Except you make the tube a vacuum.  Current estimates are of trains being able to hit 2,500mph in a straight line in a vacuum environment.

The downside is that you have to dig a tunnel long enough make 2,500 mph worthwhile.  So NY to London, or LA to NY.  Given the costs of something like the Chunnel, I suspect we won't see this ever.  The idea showed up in a sci-fi novel a read a few years ago, I thought it was neat.

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## RadicalModerate

I think it is too.  And fun!
Imagine that.  =)

Remember: No Time Machine existed before H.G. Wells (or was it gene roddenberry/timothy leary?) thought of it.
maybe it was kurt vonnegut or that "illuminati trilogy" guy).

I'm thinkin' that maybe OG&E could begin to investigate the Cost/Value/Service concept by actually beginning to bury electrical lines underground, thereby shielding them from the vagaries of nature (e.g. ICE-9 storms).

On "Dune" you would never put trains underground on account of the Spice Worms.
So that is a "neigh" from the Asimov camp.

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## Just the facts

> I'm thinkin' that maybe OG&E could begin to investigate the Cost/Value/Service concept by actually beginning to bury electrical lines underground, thereby shielding them from the vagaries of nature (e.g. ICE-9 storms).


This is one of the problems with true HSR across the plains.  With storms rolling across the plains your trip would greatly dependent on storms 500 miles away because you would be there in 90 minutes and no one want to go into a hail storm at 350 mph.  If you drew a line from Chicago to Dallas how long would it be before a tornado crossed that line.  Now picture trains doing 300 mph traveling along that line.  Not pretty.

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## bluedogok

> This is one of the problems with true HSR across the plains.  With storms rolling across the plains your trip would greatly dependent on storms 500 miles away because you would be there in 90 minutes and no one want to go into a hail storm at 350 mph.  If you drew a line from Chicago to Dallas how long would it be before a tornado crossed that line.  Now picture trains doing 300 mph traveling along that line.  Not pretty.


They would have to stop somewhere until the storm crossed like some freight trains have done, planes have to reroute all the time because of storms. If a 1:1,000,000 chance of a train intersecting a tornado at the exact same moment is what keeps people from taking HSR in this part of the country then they just need to stay in the storm shelters they inevitably have 24 hours a day. Tornadoes do exist in Japan, China and Europe where they do have high speed rail. I'm sure they have dealt with thunderstorms as well, they are not just restricted to the plains states.

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## RadicalModerate

It would take me longer to draw a line from Chicago to Dallas than you could begin to imagine so a tornado would probably cross it before I was done thus rendering the initial postulation moot.  (Speaking of "moot": No cows allowed in the train tunnels.  Not even as passengers.)

You can't stop a bullet train. It would probably take longer to raise and lower the storm sheilds than it would be to dig ten miles of the tunnel.  OG&E really needs to start checking out the technological marvels related to shovels. Heck . . . They're only about .75 Century late . . .

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## Snowman

> Are the "Zip cars" solar powered? Or do they rely on hydrogen fusion? Maybe solar-powered magnets?


Zipcar is a company; it rents cars, vans & trucks. The main benefit over other rental Hertz or Avis is you can be billed hourly so it is often cheaper.

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## NoOkie

> I think it is too.  And fun!
> Imagine that.  =)
> 
> Remember: No Time Machine existed before H.G. Wells (or was it gene roddenberry/timothy leary?) thought of it.
> maybe it was kurt vonnegut or that "illuminati trilogy" guy).
> 
> I'm thinkin' that maybe OG&E could begin to investigate the Cost/Value/Service concept by actually beginning to bury electrical lines underground, thereby shielding them from the vagaries of nature (e.g. ICE-9 storms).
> 
> On "Dune" you would never put trains underground on account of the Spice Worms.
> So that is a "neigh" from the Asimov camp.


Herbert, not Asimov.  :Wink:

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## RadicalModerate

oops.... thank you for setting the record straight. of _course_ it was Frank Herbert . . . i guess i was thinking of The Foundation Trilogy (doh).

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## BDP

> Oklahoma City and Tulsa are very different cities


From what perspective exactly? There are little differences, but you have to compare on a very micro scale to come to the conclusion that they are "very" different. I still have never visited two cities that are more similar to each other in culture, infrastructure, and economy. OKC has been scaling up in more areas than Tulsa has recently, and more large scale changes are on the way, but they're still more similar to each other than any other cities I can think of, certainly any that i have visited.

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