# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  New Apartment proposal at NW 36th and Tecumseh.

## ou48A

There is a proposed for a new apartment complex at the SW corner of NW 36th and Tecumseh in Norman.

It still needs to be approved by the city of Norman but a very high percentage of people (several thousand) who live on the NW side of Norman strongly opposed this 3 story apartment complex on this property. There are rumors of opposition coming from some of Normans most influential and wealthy people.

 Most people know how bad rental apartments of this type look after about 10 years. 
If these were higher end condos they wouldnt be facing nearly as much opposition IMHO.

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## rcjunkie

> There is a proposed for a new apartment complex at the SW corner of NW 36th and Tecumseh in Norman.
> 
> It still needs to be approved by the city of Norman but a very high percentage of people (several thousand) who live on the NW side of Norman strongly opposed this 3 story apartment complex on this property. There are rumors of opposition coming from some of Normans most influential and wealthy people.
> 
>  Most people know how bad rental apartments of this type look after about 10 years. 
> If these were higher end condos they wouldnt be facing nearly as much opposition IMHO.


I know live at Tenkiller, and having lived West Norman for 15 years prior to moving, I'm not surprised by the opposition. Just more elitist, not in my backyard mentality. Sad

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## kevinpate

People often want to decide what purpose a piece of someone else's property will get put to when it is near their own property or might otherwise impact them.  

All in all, seems like a not so bad place.  Medical, retail and churchs on three direct sides.  If I lived in the addition to the immediate west, I could think of worse scenarios for that piece of land.

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## ou48A

> I know live at Tenkiller, and having lived West Norman for 15 years prior to moving, I'm not surprised by the opposition. Just more elitist, not in my backyard mentality. Sad


This will devalue home owner’s property values…
 It’s hardly elitist to oppose something that is against your own interest.

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## ou48A

> People often want to decide what purpose a piece of someone else's property will get put to when it is near their own property or might otherwise impact them.  
> 
> All in all, seems like a not so bad place.  Medical, retail and churchs on three direct sides.  *If I lived in the addition to the immediate west, I could think of worse scenarios for that piece of land*.


Like what?


According to a very large land developer that I talked with virtually nothing worse could be approved by the city to devalue property in the surrounding areas. I am told that even the churches are against this.

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## blangtang

> Like what?
> 
> 
> According to a very large land developer that I talked with virtually nothing worse could be approved by the city to devalue property in the surrounding areas. I am told that even the churches are against this.


What's the current zoning of the parcel?  Didn't that area used to be zoned agricultural until recently?  IIRC, when something was proposed to the planning commission involving special use or a zoning change, they sent out notices to _only_ those withing 300 ft of the land parcel.  And then they tallied the protest rate from those parcel owners...

Also I heard from a large strip mall and commercial property developer than the continued approval of large scale tract home development in the vicinity is negatively affecting his commercial property values  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I have trouble seeing how land near a large hospital with helicopter deliveries and ambulance sirens could be negatively impacted by a multifamily development.  Those opposed to the proposed use of the property that they do not own should pool their money, buy the parcel and use the land as they wish.   :Stick Out Tongue:  

Really the way the Norman city council works is if the planning commission doesn't object overwhelmingly out of the gate then the council members will pass the proposal.  If its already out of the planning commission hearings and going to be heard by the council already its likely too late to stop it.  Unless of course, like 300 nearby landowners show up and want to speak at the council meeting. Good luck with that on a Tuesday night!  If so, then they might just table it or delay the thing.  Usually the time has passed when the local residents who might be whipped into a frenzy get around to mobilizing.  I haven't looked lately, so let me know if this is to be heard at the next council meeting or where it is in the process...

But who knows in Norman, after all the builders developers realtors and bankers run things so its whatever they want  :Stick Out Tongue: 

On another thought, I used to have some junk stored in a nearby storage locker, over by 36th and Bart Conner Dr, down toward Rock Creek.  That area had multi story spec office buildings sitting empty and for lease last fall.  I have trouble seeing how that is any worse than multifamily.  That whole area has a lot of undeveloped land, so the people who rent their houses from the banks should get used to more parcels filling in the next few years.  JMHO  :Smile: 

If they do build apartments in the area, they will be priced appropriately for the area, so that shouldn't negatively affect residential single family property values any more than all the foreclosures going on the last couple years have.

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## Spartan

This will not come to pass. Noooo way.

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## ou48A

> What's the current zoning of the parcel?  Didn't that area used to be zoned agricultural until recently?  IIRC, when something was proposed to the planning commission involving special use or a zoning change, they sent out notices to _only_ those withing 300 ft of the land parcel.  And then they tallied the protest rate from those parcel owners...
> 
> Also I heard from a large strip mall and commercial property developer than the continued approval of large scale tract home development in the vicinity is negatively affecting his commercial property values 
> 
> I have trouble seeing how land near a large hospital with helicopter deliveries and ambulance sirens could be negatively impacted by a multifamily development.  Those opposed to the proposed use of the property that they do not own should pool their money, buy the parcel and use the land as they wish.   
> 
> Really the way the Norman city council works is if the planning commission doesn't object overwhelmingly out of the gate then the council members will pass the proposal.  If its already out of the planning commission hearings and going to be heard by the council already its likely too late to stop it.  Unless of course, like 300 nearby landowners show up and want to speak at the council meeting. Good luck with that on a Tuesday night!  If so, then they might just table it or delay the thing.  Usually the time has passed when the local residents who might be whipped into a frenzy get around to mobilizing.  I haven't looked lately, so let me know if this is to be heard at the next council meeting or where it is in the process...
> 
> But who knows in Norman, after all the builders developers realtors and bankers run things so its whatever they want 
> ...


It has been zoned for some type of commercial development but not apartments. Informed residents bought homes with the expectation that there would not be rent apartments at this location. Currently there is very little to no apartments in this area of Norman but the change in zoning is working its way through the city’s process.
I have heard no complaints about helicopter deliveries but the frequency of fire and ambulance sirens is said to be more noticeable.
There are apparently lot more than 300 nearby property owners who do not like this apartment project but the exact number and what they do remains to be seen but I expect to see a petition against this project. 
The biggest issue I see is that very often apartments like this start looking run down after about 10 years. Then they start charging lower rents and that will drive property values down in the area.
We will just need to wait and see how this unfolds but at least one person with the city was report to have been very shocked at the amount and of the strong reaction so far received against this project with some of it apparently coming from people of wealth and influence…. so we will see…..

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## Questor

It's zoned commercial.  Lawyers representing the land owner and the company that wants to build the apartment complex are petitioning the city to have it rezoned for medium/high density residential.  Rcjunkie, it's not an issue of elitism, actually it is more of an issue of keeping the land zoned as it currently is and as it was when the additions around it were built.  Also, this three-story complex, if built, will add something like 300 new dwellings to the area... when you look at the number of homes in the surrounding area, that means this proposal would increase the total number of living space in that immediate area by something like 50%.  That will increase traffic dramatically.  In addition, the area's elementary school is literally right down the street...  I imagine a lot of parents are concerned for the safety of their children who walk to school.  Also, I agree with ou48a who said there isn't a worse development possible with respect to area property values.

If the city of Norman allows this I am moving back to OKC on principal alone.  Norman planning, or whatever they want to call it, is horrible.  The ridiculous things that have been allowed to go on with UNP, a propensity of running away great new businesses with multitudes of red tape that as far as I can tell isn't worth what it is costing us, a horribly mismanaged HealthPlex development that ended with a Frankenstein building that has questionable aesthetic value, what I view as a lack of urban planning in areas of high density in town, a bizarre acceptance of high-density new developments scattered around the edges of the city in areas I would consider clearly low density, a council that doesn't even bother to pursue federal grant money for rail in a city with perhaps one of the largest pedestrian communities in this entire state, and a strange propensity for allowing trailer parks next to highly priced homes makes me think the city has no idea what it is doing.

It's an election year.  Press the Norman Council members and their campaigning opponents to tell you, point blank, what side of the fence they are on with respect to this apartment complex and all the other bad planning that has been going on in town recently.  Don't vote for them if you don't like their answers.

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## BoulderSooner

> It's zoned commercial.  Lawyers representing the land owner and the company that wants to build the apartment complex are petitioning the city to have it rezoned for medium/high density residential.  Rcjunkie, it's not an issue of elitism, actually it is more of an issue of keeping the land zoned as it currently is and as it was when the additions around it were built.  Also, this three-story complex, if built, will add something like 300 new dwellings to the area... when you look at the number of homes in the surrounding area, that means this proposal would increase the total number of living space in that immediate area by something like 50%.  That will increase traffic dramatically.  In addition, the area's elementary school is literally right down the street...  I imagine a lot of parents are concerned for the safety of their children who walk to school.  Also, I agree with ou48a who said there isn't a worse development possible with respect to area property values.
> 
> If the city of Norman allows this I am moving back to OKC on principal alone.  Norman planning, or whatever they want to call it, is horrible.  The ridiculous things that have been allowed to go on with UNP, a propensity of running away great new businesses with multitudes of red tape that as far as I can tell isn't worth what it is costing us, a horribly mismanaged HealthPlex development that ended with a Frankenstein building that has questionable aesthetic value, what I view as a lack of urban planning in areas of high density in town, a bizarre acceptance of high-density new developments scattered around the edges of the city in areas I would consider clearly low density, a council that doesn't even bother to pursue federal grant money for rail in a city with perhaps one of the largest pedestrian communities in this entire state, and a strange propensity for allowing trailer parks next to highly priced homes makes me think the city has no idea what it is doing.
> 
> It's an election year.  Press the Norman Council members and their campaigning opponents to tell you, point blank, what side of the fence they are on with respect to this apartment complex and all the other bad planning that has been going on in town recently.  Don't vote for them if you don't like their answers.


of course before the additions around it were built the entire area was zoned AA ...

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## cas

I live right by here and I hope it does not happen.  The traffic is already bad enough.  There is a new addition going in a mile down the road on 48th.  Roosevelt Elementary can't handle much more growth in the area either and Norman doesn't put up new elementary schools everywhere like Moore does.  Does the project have a name? Is it in the planning commision minutes?  I would like to see the study to show the impact on the area.

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## ou48A

> I live right by here and I hope it does not happen.  The traffic is already bad enough.  There is a new addition going in a mile down the road on 48th.  Roosevelt Elementary can't handle much more growth in the area either and Norman doesn't put up new elementary schools everywhere like Moore does.  Does the project have a name? Is it in the planning commision minutes?  I would like to see the study to show the impact on the area.


While its an important issue to area residents and to the schools the city council supports diversity. 
Eventually when these apartment start looking ratty as most do they will attract people who are not as successful as the residents in this area. In time this means a lower preforming elementary school.
But a very liberal city council views exposure to kids with lower abilities as being good.

Very few on  the Norman city council really care how this impacts the nearby elementary school.

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## ou48A

> It's zoned commercial.  Lawyers representing the land owner and the company that wants to build the apartment complex are petitioning the city to have it rezoned for medium/high density residential.  Rcjunkie, it's not an issue of elitism, actually it is more of an issue of keeping the land zoned as it currently is and as it was when the additions around it were built.  Also, this three-story complex, if built, will add something like 300 new dwellings to the area... when you look at the number of homes in the surrounding area, that means this proposal would increase the total number of living space in that immediate area by something like 50%.  That will increase traffic dramatically.  In addition, the area's elementary school is literally right down the street...  I imagine a lot of parents are concerned for the safety of their children who walk to school.  Also, I agree with ou48a who said there isn't a worse development possible with respect to area property values.
> 
> *If the city of Norman allows this I am moving back to OKC on principal alone*.  Norman planning, or whatever they want to call it, is horrible.  The ridiculous things that have been allowed to go on with UNP, a propensity of running away great new businesses with multitudes of red tape that as far as I can tell isn't worth what it is costing us, a horribly mismanaged HealthPlex development that ended with a Frankenstein building that has questionable aesthetic value, what I view as a lack of urban planning in areas of high density in town, a bizarre acceptance of high-density new developments scattered around the edges of the city in areas I would consider clearly low density, a council that doesn't even bother to pursue federal grant money for rail in a city with perhaps one of the largest pedestrian communities in this entire state, and a strange propensity for allowing trailer parks next to highly priced homes makes me think the city has no idea what it is doing.


If these apartments are built I don’t know if I would move to another community or not but my wife and I along with 3 other nearby households are actively discussing it.

I would agree with you Questor that Norman’s planning has been very poor, in some respects it’s been going on for many decades. The city study’s issues to death but they don’t do nearly enough to solve problems and then too frequently they deviate from their stated planning….. Like allowing these apartments to be built.

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## ou48A

> It's an election year.  Press the Norman Council members and their campaigning opponents to tell you, point blank, what side of the fence they are on with respect to this apartment complex and all the other bad planning that has been going on in town recently.  Don't vote for them if you don't like their answers.



As far as the Norman city council goes for this part of Norman (ward 8) we have a choice of voting for a guy who says he is against these apartments but he has apparently has taken money from some property developers. He is running against a known lesbian who teaches woman’s rights at OU and who apparently supports costly radical environmentally positions. I have been told by a well-connected source that she was handpicked by the Norman mayor who also teaches woman’s rights at OU and who once admitted that she had been a dues paying member of an organization that supported UN Agenda 21. This is a radical plan that would require us to give up control over many aspects of our lives and cost each tax payer big time money.

I am going to take a chance and vote for the guy who says he is against the apartments.

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## jedicurt

> As far as the Norman city council goes for this part of Norman (ward 8) we have a choice of voting for a guy who says he is against these apartments but he has apparently has taken money from some property developers. He is running against a known lesbian who teaches woman’s rights at OU and who apparently supports costly radical environmentally positions. I have been told by a well-connected source that she was handpicked by the Norman mayor who also teaches woman’s rights at OU and who once admitted that she had been a dues paying member of an organization that supported UN Agenda 21. This is a radical plan that would require us to give up control over many aspects of our lives and cost each tax payer big time money.
> 
> I am going to take a chance and vote for the guy who says he is against the apartments.


i'm attempting to figure out how her being a lesbian has any reason to do with the rest... you keep talking about policy positions that involve spends lots of money for little return, and yet only mention her being a lesbian in a passing statement...

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## blangtang

Is this the project?  

THE TECUMSEH PROJECT, generally
located south of Tecumseh Road at Astor Drive.

http://www.ci.norman.ok.us/node/348/...ommission/2012 

its from the April 12 agenda

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## rcjunkie

> It's zoned commercial.  Lawyers representing the land owner and the company that wants to build the apartment complex are petitioning the city to have it rezoned for medium/high density residential.  Rcjunkie, it's not an issue of elitism, actually it is more of an issue of keeping the land zoned as it currently is and as it was when the additions around it were built.  Also, this three-story complex, if built, will add something like 300 new dwellings to the area... when you look at the number of homes in the surrounding area, that means this proposal would increase the total number of living space in that immediate area by something like 50%.  That will increase traffic dramatically.  In addition, the area's elementary school is literally right down the street...  I imagine a lot of parents are concerned for the safety of their children who walk to school.  Also, I agree with ou48a who said there isn't a worse development possible with respect to area property values.
> 
> If the city of Norman allows this I am moving back to OKC on principal alone.  Norman planning, or whatever they want to call it, is horrible.  The ridiculous things that have been allowed to go on with UNP, a propensity of running away great new businesses with multitudes of red tape that as far as I can tell isn't worth what it is costing us, a horribly mismanaged HealthPlex development that ended with a Frankenstein building that has questionable aesthetic value, what I view as a lack of urban planning in areas of high density in town, a bizarre acceptance of high-density new developments scattered around the edges of the city in areas I would consider clearly low density, a council that doesn't even bother to pursue federal grant money for rail in a city with perhaps one of the largest pedestrian communities in this entire state, and a strange propensity for allowing trailer parks next to highly priced homes makes me think the city has no idea what it is doing.
> 
> It's an election year.  Press the Norman Council members and their campaigning opponents to tell you, point blank, what side of the fence they are on with respect to this apartment complex and all the other bad planning that has been going on in town recently.  Don't vote for them if you don't like their answers.


This is zoned commercial, would you prefer a Walmart Super Center over an apartment come ?

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## ou48A

> i'm attempting to figure out how her being a lesbian has any reason to do with the rest... you keep talking about policy positions that involve spends lots of money for little return, and yet only mention her being a lesbian in a passing statement...


Im not saying she would be anything like Barney Frank. But when it comes to representing the view points of the majority of residents in this part of Norman odds are very high that most would not vote for her if this was widely known. As far as I know she has not publically acknowledged it. At the very least she should be open enough to make a public acknowledgment.
By all appearances she has every appearance of another extremely liberal person running for the Norman city council. Most of the liberals on the city council including the mayor have been far more interest in making Norman an inclusive community rather than making Norman a more prosperous community. Norman has a well-known reputation for being the most difficult place for a new business to open in Oklahoma and is said to be one of the more difficult places to open a business in the middle part of the country. We need a different brand of leadership.

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## ou48A

> This is zoned commercial, would you prefer a Walmart Super Center over an apartment come ?


There isn’t nearly enough room for a Wal Mart supper center. Besides Wal Mart is building a small store about a mile south of this location. A grocery store is needed in this area, it’s in an ok location, and I haven’t heard any complaints about it.
As far as development goes medical office space or similar or condominiums like we have north of the Sooner mall would be ideal IMHO.

Its 16 acres and they are reserving 2 acres for who knows what? Probably something like a 7/11 or a Wall Greens.

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## ou48A

> Is this the project?  
> 
> THE TECUMSEH PROJECT, generally
> located south of Tecumseh Road at Astor Drive.
> 
> http://www.ci.norman.ok.us/node/348/...ommission/2012 
> 
> its from the April 12 agenda


No….this^ project is medical offices and such that I did not mind. 
It is located about 1/8 of a mile west of the proposed apartment complex and just south of the Catholic Church.

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## Questor

> This is zoned commercial, would you prefer a Walmart Super Center over an apartment come ?


I would prefer any commercial over any residential.  A WMSC would not be my first choice, but if it closes at a reasonable time of day (e.g. not 24/7) I could deal with it.  In my perfect world it would be additional medical buildings, upscale or fast casual dining like maybe a new Panera Bread, and so forth.  In other words, how it is currently zoned.

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## rcjunkie

> No….this^ project is medical offices and such that I did not mind. 
> It is located about 1/8 of a mile west of the proposed apartment complex and just south of the Catholic Church.


This office project was fought tooth and nail by several residents, planning commission denied the request, but the council approved it anyway.

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## ou48A

> This office project was fought tooth and nail by several residents, planning commission denied the request, but the council approved it anyway.


Yes it was fought but this will be fought by many times that number of people and if what I am hearing is true by far more influential people. There may be some big talk going on right now by some people but with several attorneys and other experts in this field of work now on board clearly and without question the apartments will face dramatically larger and far more motivated organized opposition.  
Will that make a difference who knows? We will just need to wait and see? It should be interesting!
But my gut feeling is that if the city officials approve this they will eventually come to regret their decision?

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## ou48A

It looks like the large amount of people who were against this and other projects may have gotten the city’s attention.

The Norman city planning commission suggested it was time for the city to have “a discussion of high-density development and where it would be appropriate in Norman.”

Click for full article
http://normantranscript.com/headline...zoning-request
NORMAN — City staff recommends high-density talks


Council member Carol Dillingham said the city needs to create policy to deal with emerging high-density requests and infills that can involve multi-story dwelling spaces. 



City staff, in its notes on the request, recommended a discussion on high density. The planning commission unanimously recommended rejecting the zoning change and* suggested it was time for the city to have “a discussion of high-density development and where it would be appropriate in Norman.”*

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## ou48A

Several subdivisions containing thousands of people and Normans largest concentration of wealth who live near the proposed apartment complex have band together and are actively prepared to fight this proposal. They have several attorneys and industry experts who live in the area that have volunteered their free services. 
As a result City officials may be having second thoughts about how they effect others?

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## blangtang

yet they approved the new Wal-mart...

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## venture

> yet they approved the new Wal-mart...


Maybe the "largest concentration of wealth" folks loving rollback prices? LOL  Beh...typical NIMBYs.

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## Questor

Yes exactly right, they voted for the Wal-Mart, right after a massive hand-ringing session on buying local and protecting the city.  Just like they moaned about the new proposed apartment on Tecumseh for half an hour... and then DID NOT reject the application... they simply tabled it for another day.  Just like how they moaned about the UNP extension and penality restructure last week... and then gave the developer EVERYTHING HE ASKED FOR.  Accck!!

Let me spell it out for everyone:  the council and the planning commission are being two faced, talk out of the side of your mouth, politicians here.  Given their choice I am sure they'll just kick the thing out for approval another 30-60 days when they meet in October, and then conveniently approve the apartment complex just after election season has ended.

It is so obvious.  Don't allow them to do this.  Force a no vote now.  If they won't do it, vote every last one of them out.  Push for budgets to be slashed in the planning departments.  Screw a bag of this crap.  The writing is on the wall, at this point they are just jacking with everyone and really it is quite obscene.

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## ou48A

> Maybe the "largest concentration of wealth" folks loving rollback prices? LOL  Beh...typical NIMBYs.



No…… not at all….. it’s called people trying to preserve the value of their property and hold the city accountable for the zoning they had long been committed to.

Due to the way this was zoned people moved to this area of Norman with the expectation that they would not have these types of apartments on this property. Now they are trying to do the old bait and switch.

I would honestly rather has an operating oil well in the vacant lot across the street from my home than to have these apartments built.

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## ou48A

> Yes exactly right, they voted for the Wal-Mart, right after a massive hand-ringing session on buying local and protecting the city.  Just like they moaned about the new proposed apartment on Tecumseh for half an hour... and then DID NOT reject the application... they simply tabled it for another day.  Just like how they moaned about the UNP extension and penality restructure last week... and then gave the developer EVERYTHING HE ASKED FOR.  Accck!!
> 
> Let me spell it out for everyone:  the council and the planning commission are being two faced, talk out of the side of your mouth, politicians here.  Given their choice I am sure they'll just kick the thing out for approval another 30-60 days when they meet in October, and then conveniently approve the apartment complex just after election season has ended.
> 
> It is so obvious.  Don't allow them to do this.  Force a no vote now.  If they won't do it, vote every last one of them out.  Push for budgets to be slashed in the planning departments.  Screw a bag of this crap.  The writing is on the wall, at this point they are just jacking with everyone and really it is quite obscene.


You are probably right, but we need to keep the pressure on. 
The fact that it’s even been delayed means they are hearing us. 
But they need to understand very well that we will not be going away now or years from now and that they will very much be held accountable in many ways!

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## kevinpate

fwiw, suggesting the push, to be followed by another suggested push to get past the fall election cycle is a tad off-base.  Isn't the Norman municipal election process still springtime based?  Articles I read seemed more like a concern for proceeding with apartments on the west side while trying to deal with the proposal over near campus as well.

Whatever they do for either, I hope they do it sooner rather than later, just so folks will know there is a plan going forward.

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## Questor

The ward that we are talking about is in a runoff. It is up for grabs on June 26. Get out and vote.

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## soonerguru

> As far as the Norman city council goes for this part of Norman (ward 8) we have a choice of voting for a guy who says he is against these apartments but he has apparently has taken money from some property developers. He is running against a known lesbian who teaches womans rights at OU and who apparently supports costly radical environmentally positions. I have been told by a well-connected source that she was handpicked by the Norman mayor who also teaches womans rights at OU and who once admitted that she had been a dues paying member of an organization that supported UN Agenda 21. This is a radical plan that would require us to give up control over many aspects of our lives and cost each tax payer big time money.
> 
> I am going to take a chance and vote for the guy who says he is against the apartments.


Oh my God, you believe in that Agenda 21 crap? Cindy Rosenthal is not a cult member. Pull your head out. I didn't take you for the tinfoil type. My advice is to vote for the "known lesbian." Who cares if she's a lesbian? Geez.

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## ou48A

> Oh my God, you believe in that Agenda 21 crap? Cindy Rosenthal is not a cult member. Pull your head out. I didn't take you for the tinfoil type. My advice is to vote for the "known lesbian." Who cares if she's a lesbian? Geez.



No… I don’t believe in the agenda 21 but the mayor of Norman does or did!

 I personally heard her admit that she and one other member of the city council had once been a dues paying member of an organization that supported Agenda 21. Rosenthal did this during a city council meeting that was shown on local TV.
                                                           ROSENTHAL IS ON OFFICIAL RECORD! 

I recently had a conversation about this with a former city of Norman Mayor….. If someone is paying close attention or is well connected they would likely know about this. It is Rosenthal who wears the tin foil agenda 21 hat.

 If you vote for the Lesbian you are voting for a person works in lock step with Rosenthal. Jacky Farley has worked VERY closely with Rosenthal while teaching at OU in a program that offers such courses as Queer Theory. I would much rather have someone who lives a mainstream traditional life and someone who is not coming from academia. I am convinced that we have had way to much academia running our city government and that its part of the reason we have some of the problems we do. I would much rather have people who have operated a business with a significant number of staff. 

If you like Rosenthal vote for Farley, but please know that I have been told that Farley’s opponent says he does not support the construction of these apartments.

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## venture

Why are you continuing to include the fact that she is a lesbian in any of this? Other than to reinforce your prejudice viewpoints. By all accounts it should not be an issue who she shares a bed with. Yet it amazes me how obsessed some on the radical right are with homosexuality. 

So back to things that should actually matter. Her opponent doesn't support the apartment complex. Great...a real issue you can get behind, for a change. Now the next part of your question to her is what does she support in being built there. If she struggles, even for a second, to answer that question she's filling you with BS in order to make you like her and will eventually flip flop and probably vote for the apartments.

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## kevinpate

I don't typically get real excited with Norman council races.  Maybe it's time I do.  Perhaps even encourage others in the neighborhood to do the same.

Anyone have campaign hq numbers for the ward 8 run-off folk?

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## heyerdahl

> Due to the way this was zoned people moved to this area of Norman with the expectation that they would not have these types of apartments on this property. Now they are trying to do the old bait and switch.


What about the people who lived in that area of Norman before all the very average subdivisions were built? Those neighborhoods were zoned for agriculture- was that a bait and switch?

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## ou48A

> What about the people who lived in that area of Norman before all the very average subdivisions were built? Those neighborhoods were zoned for agriculture- was that a bait and switch?


There were very few people that would have been impacted in the way that you are suggesting….compared to at least several thousand people who do not want these apartments built.

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## rcjunkie

> There were very few people that would have been impacted in the way that you are suggesting….compared to at least several thousand people who do not want these apartments built.


Poor Normanites, what a bunch of elitist. Just another reminder of why I moved away as soon as I could.

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## ou48A

> Why are you continuing to include the fact that she is a lesbian in any of this? Other than to reinforce your prejudice viewpoints. By all accounts it should not be an issue who she shares a bed with. Yet it amazes me how obsessed some on the radical right are with homosexuality. 
> 
> So back to things that should actually matter. Her opponent doesn't support the apartment complex. Great...a real issue you can get behind, for a change. Now the next part of your question to her is what does she support in being built there. If she struggles, even for a second, to answer that question she's filling you with BS in order to make you like her and will eventually flip flop and probably vote for the apartments.


Everything we see about Jacky Farley gives the impression of someone from the very extreme left.
Farley may win, but long gone are the days going along to get along with radical elements of the extreme. Left. Their words and attempts to brand people are no longer feared. Farley looks like another YES person for the Norman mayor. The Norman city Council has been dominated by far left elements. Many are seeking more balance, Farley should be scrutinized about her values and beliefs.

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## blangtang

Something gave me deja vu...oh yeah this thread...

Thread in the Edmond section about Coffee Creek apartment:

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=20573

What ever happened in Edmond, are these built ?  Did crime go up?

If nothing else, we can see that Edmond and Norman are not all that different

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## kevinpate

Several thousand opposed to the apartments proposed? Given the scant attention seemingly paid to development in Norman, it would almost surprise me if several thousand were even aware of the project, irrespective of their feelings on it.  Just how big are the two or three nearby subdivisions?

Also, there seems to be a fairly large commercial/church area on three sides of the proposed apartment location, a buffer zone separating the apartment dwellers from the area residents in those directions.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but it would seem that the greatest level of opposition would primarily arise from one subdivision due west of the proposed apartment location.  Is that not the case of who is leading the opposition to the project?  

Is there unanimous opposition from that area, or is it primarily the nearest 20-50 residences, with the rest exhibiting the more typical oh well, not my backyard, not my issue attitude?

Also, what was the name of the male ward 8 candidate.  Neither he or the other candidate seem to have much of a campaign going on.  In the past it has been very coming to have a couple of door knocks and mailers.  It's like crickets this time around. Shoot, if it weren't for this thread I would have forgotten, indeed did forget, there was still a contest in play in W8.

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## flintysooner

> Something gave me deja vu...oh yeah this thread...
> Thread in the Edmond section about Coffee Creek apartment:
> http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=20573
> What ever happened in Edmond, are these built ?  Did crime go up?
> If nothing else, we can see that Edmond and Norman are not all that different


Site plan for Edmond's Enclave Apartments to be considered
Read more: http://newsok.com/site-plan-for-edmo...#ixzz1wAWA7nIy

Planning Commission OK's new Enclave apartments
http://www.edmondsun.com/local/x1221...ave-apartments

New fire codes will be used in rebuilding Edmond apartments
Read more: http://newsok.com/new-fire-codes-wil...#ixzz1wAXBcQkd

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## ou48A

> Also, what was the name of the male ward 8 candidate.


The male ward 8 candidate is Chad Williams. From what I have been told he is a very decent man.

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## ou48A

> Several thousand opposed to the apartments proposed? Given the scant attention seemingly paid to development in Norman, it would almost surprise me if several thousand were even aware of the project, irrespective of their feelings on it.  Just how big are the two or three nearby subdivisions?
> 
> Also, there seems to be a fairly large commercial/church area on three sides of the proposed apartment location, a buffer zone separating the apartment dwellers from the area residents in those directions.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but it would seem that the greatest level of opposition would primarily arise from one subdivision due west of the proposed apartment location.  Is that not the case of who is leading the opposition to the project?  
> 
> Is there unanimous opposition from that area, or is it primarily the nearest 20-50 residences, with the rest exhibiting the more typical oh well, not my backyard, not my issue attitude?


At last report their were at least 6 west Norman subdivisions sending out information to their neighborhoods to oppose the apartments. I have been told that the churches in the area also oppose the apartments. Clearly thousands are aware and I have not heard of anybody except for the developers who want these apartments built.

Why do you think the city of Norman finally decided to stop the process and have a discussion about these types of developments? 


It was clearly because of the huge response they got about over these types of projects. This has become much more than a not my backyard affair. It’s about how the city government operates. I will give them credit for being smart enough to stop the process and try and develop some type of set policy. They are going to put this off until October. This delay in its self represents a small victory for the area neighborhoods & churches who are opposed to the apartments.

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## rcjunkie

> At last report their were at least 6 west Norman subdivisions sending out information to their neighborhoods to oppose the apartments. I have been told that the churches in the area also oppose the apartments. Clearly thousands are aware and I have not heard of anybody except for the developers who want these apartments built.
> 
> Why do you think the city of Norman finally decided to stop the process and have a discussion about these types of developments? 
> 
> 
> It was clearly because of the huge response they got about over these types of projects. This has become much more than a not my backyard affair. It’s about how the city government operates. I will give them credit for being smart enough to stop the process and try and develop some type of set policy. They are going to put this off until October. This delay in its self represents a small victory for the area neighborhoods & churches who are opposed to the apartments.



WOW, hard to believe but not surprised at the NIMBY attitudes and I would love to see proof that any Church was against this project

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## heyerdahl

> There were very few people that would have been impacted in the way that you are suggesting.compared to at least several thousand people who do not want these apartments built.


Same situation though - in fact the new neighborhoods were a far greater change to the status quo development pattern than these apartments will be. The construction of thousands of homes and large arterials turned that area into an urbanized one where apartments are totally appropriate and even necessary. I say necessary because I don't think low-wage employees (maintenance, secretaries, clerks, etc) of the HealthPlex (or your nice local Starbucks or whatever) should be forced to live miles away where you deem it appropriate for people with less money to live.

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## ou48A

> Same situation though - in fact the new neighborhoods were a far greater change to the status quo development pattern than these apartments will be. The construction of thousands of homes and large arterials turned that area into an urbanized one where apartments are totally appropriate and even necessary. I say necessary because I don't think low-wage employees (maintenance, secretaries, clerks, etc) of the HealthPlex (or your nice local Starbucks or whatever) should be forced to live miles away where you deem it appropriate for people with less money to live.


We are talking about the impact on people, not land. 
There are plenty of living places for “low-wage employees” within 2 -3 miles of the closest Starbucks. 

Besides the developers are calling this a high end development that low wage employees would not be able to afford.

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## rcjunkie

[QUOTE=ou48A;541854]We are talking about the impact on people, not land. 
There are plenty of living places for “low-wage employees” within 2 -3 miles of the closest Starbucks. 

Besides the developers are calling this a high end development that low wage employees would not be able to afford.[/QUOT

WOW, what else can one say. The nerve of a common, hard working, tax paying citizen, wanting to live in one of, of not the nicest, area of Norman.

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## rcjunkie

[QUOTE=ou48A;541854]We are talking about the impact on people, not land. 
There are plenty of living places for “low-wage employees” within 2 -3 miles of the closest Starbucks. 

Besides the developers are calling this a high end development that low wage employees would not be able to afford.[/QUOT

WOW, what else can one say. The nerve of a common, hard working, tax paying citizen, wanting to live in one of, if not the nicest, areas in Norman.

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## HangryHippo

> Same situation though - in fact the new neighborhoods were a far greater change to the status quo development pattern than these apartments will be. The construction of thousands of homes and large arterials turned that area into an urbanized one where apartments are totally appropriate and even necessary. I say necessary because I don't think low-wage employees (maintenance, secretaries, clerks, etc) of the HealthPlex (or your nice local Starbucks or whatever) should be forced to live miles away where you deem it appropriate for people with less money to live.


This is exactly how I feel about the situation.  When they started building all those homes and a large hospital as a draw for the region and every road around there became major thoroughfares, the argument for a bedroom community feel went out the window.

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## ou48A

> This is exactly how I feel about the situation.  When they started building all those homes and a large hospital as a draw for the region and every road around there became major thoroughfares, the argument for a bedroom community feel went out the window.


Nobody that I know of is against most types of commercial development, just as much of the property in this area was zoned.
Building the apartments would represent a significant zoning change that was made many years ago. Many folks feel it would be wrong for the city to make this change.

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## Questor

The ward 8 election is between Jackie Farley and Chad Williams.  Here's some information:

http://normantranscript.com/headline...-Norman-Ward-8


I don't know how true it is, but one of the home owners associations in the area has been saying that they believe Chad Williams supports the apartment development, because the developer (Clagg) has one of his signs posted on some of their property.  The implication is that Jackie Farley does not support the development.  I have not spoken to either, and the Norman media is horrible as usual and reporting nothing, so take this with a grain of salt.

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## ou48A

> The ward 8 election is between Jackie Farley and Chad Williams.  Here's some information:
> 
> http://normantranscript.com/headline...-Norman-Ward-8
> 
> 
> I don't know how true it is, but one of the home owners associations in the area has been saying that they believe Chad Williams supports the apartment development, because the developer (Clagg) has one of his signs posted on some of their property.  The implication is that Jackie Farley does not support the development.  I have not spoken to either, and the Norman media is horrible as usual and reporting nothing, so take this with a grain of salt.



There was an email circulating that talked about a need to support Jackie Farley for city council.
Some had apparently falsely claimed that Chad Williams appeared to support the apartment development because he had campaign signs posted on the property in question. This email was rescinded a day later with the statement that they do not endorse either candidate. 

Chad Williams has told people that I know that he does not support these apartments.

I did not talk to him but Chad Williams did come by my house today and left a brochure.
In the brochure he says….. 
*
“Homeowners believe when they bought their house that they would be protected from certain types of development. A promise is a promise. Chad Williams will fight to restrict changes in zoning when they affect property values and the integrity of our neighborhoods.”*

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## venture

He'll fight up until someone else makes him a better offer like every other politician. Oh well. Not my Ward so that is for you all to deal with. I get to deal with the lazy, do nothing, vote no on everything idiot on this side of town.

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