# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  Asian District

## metro

Well I noticed about two weeks ago ground finally broke for Sun Moon Plaza in the Asian District. Several concrete form walls have already gone up. I'll try and take some pics soon. For more information read this old thread and here is a pic as well.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...updates-2.html

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## Doug Loudenback

I noticed this also but took no pics as they seem to be moving at a snail's pace. Maybe it will pick up soon.

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## metro

The couple days I saw them out there, they were working pretty fast and put walls up overnight. Pretty large crew from what I've seen. I guess time will tell, hopefully Laredo's construction crew is not working on this project.

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## wsucougz

This thing is garbage.

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## Doug Loudenback

> This thing is garbage.


Why do you say that? The plan, at least, looks pretty good. But you may have other info ...

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## metro

> This thing is garbage.


yeah, why do you say that, and it's way better than what was there before, and it is at least adding more to the "Asian look" of the district. I'd much rather see that than Rent-A-Center or a Taco Mayo.

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## wsucougz

It's a tilt-up strip mall with a pagoda.

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## Doug Loudenback

> It's a tilt-up strip mall with a pagoda.


Sooo ... what? BTW, it looks like the Rent-A-Center is not going to be included ... at least I've not seen any signs of destruction of that facility.

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## metro

Yeah, that was my observation too Doug, unfortunately.

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## wsucougz

> Sooo ... what?


I don't know, Doug.  Just not too excited about it I guess.  Maybe it will turn out better than it's shaping up.

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## onthestrip

I agree with wsu. Seems like the Asian district has had too many of these slightly dressed up concrete tilt up shopping centers built recently. None of which, up to this point, look all that Asian or have any real character to speak of.

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## LakeEffect

> Sooo ... what? BTW, it looks like the Rent-A-Center is not going to be included ... at least I've not seen any signs of destruction of that facility.


It will be part of the new buildings, but they want to stay in operation as long as possible before moving.

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## Doug Loudenback

> It will be part of the new buildings, but they want to stay in operation as long as possible before moving.


Good. Please tell what else you know?  :Tiphat:

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## Platemaker

> I agree with wsu. Seems like the Asian district has had too many of these slightly dressed up concrete tilt up shopping centers built recently. None of which, up to this point, look all that Asian or have any real character to speak of.


They at least have Asian _elements_... look a modern Asia... they aren't build recreations of Himeji Castle or the Forbidden City... we can't expect the same.

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## BG918

All I would ask is that they build up to the sidewalk so you can go to multiple stores and restaurants.  Some have, most haven't...not sure about this one.

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## metro

Seems to be coming along now. I am afraid it is probably going to look like a very cheap strip mall. They modified the design quite a bit from what I can tell and they attached the Asian Pagoda thingy to the SE corner of the building instead of having it free standing in the middle of the shopping center.  

Steve, do you have any inside scoop on this one yet?

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## Platemaker

There was poster/sign in front of what I thought was going to be Sun Moon Plaza along 23rd and Western with two views of the photo above... then the same sign was moved to the strip mall being built at Classen and 26th.  Now that sign is missing from Classen and 26th (Maybe because it's open now?)  So I wonder if there will be two similar projects?

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## Spartan

> I agree with wsu. Seems like the Asian district has had too many of these slightly dressed up concrete tilt up shopping centers built recently. None of which, up to this point, look all that Asian or have any real character to speak of.


Well I wouldn't say that, I mean, SURELY there's crappy strip mall architecture in Asia as well..what about Haikou, China..that would be where I would go first to find crappy strip mall architecture in Asia because that is OKC's sister city in Asia. And yes, I just looked that up.

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## disinfected

> Well I wouldn't say that, I mean, SURELY there's crappy strip mall architecture in Asia as well..what about Haikou, China..that would be where I would go first to find crappy strip mall architecture in Asia because that is OKC's sister city in Asia. And yes, I just looked that up.


Apparently "sister cities" aren't determined by similarity.  :Wink:

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## earlywinegareth

It's in the northside, so by definition it's world-class, right?
 :LolLolLolLol:

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## okclee

WOW, If only Okc Urban Renewal could get their hands on that. 

Just think of the possiblities, Plazas, Parks, Pastures, Parking Lots....etc.

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## Rover

If we could only get a hold of their 1.3 BILLION people there wouldn't be any room for parks and plazas.  

I've traveled and done business in China.  I hope people here don't want to use their Communist planned cities as urbanization examples.  Outside of some areas  architecture and city planning is definitely not exciting.

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## mheaton76

> I've traveled and done business in China. I hope people here don't want to use their Communist planned cities as urbanization examples.


Yes, they love their empty plazas ... look at how lively Olympic plaza is in Beijing these days ... this pic is less than a year old. 



But ... I see another one in our future too, maybe not with the Sun Moon Plaza per se, just sayin':

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## soonerguru

Hey, don't pick on SandRidge. They did put the cheap-looking, cheesy Thunder banner atop their building, so everything's cool.

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## rcjunkie

You can please some of the people, some of the time---but you can't please all of the people, all of the time.

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## Spartan

And then you can also piss mostly everyone off and show zero regard for what everyone generally wants for downtown..

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## decepticobra

> All I would ask is that they build up to the sidewalk so you can go to multiple stores and restaurants.  Some have, most haven't...not sure about this one.


..and how bout building a light rail in the district to connect Little Saigon to the rest of OKC once a light rail system gets developed. They could call it the Orient Express.

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## decepticobra

> They at least have Asian _elements_... look a modern Asia... they aren't build recreations of Himeji Castle or the Forbidden City... we can't expect the same.


why would they build those in OKC to begin with? Little Saigon is chiefly Vietnamese,... not Japanese, Chinese, or any other Asian ethnicity.

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## Spartan

Except nobody has called it Little Saigon since 1990.

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## okclee

Nice article about the Okc Asian District. 

http://www.okc.biz/article/11-24-201...olling_on.aspx




> Asian District improvements, renovations just keep rolling on
> Pamela A. Grady
> 11.24.2010
> 
> During the past two decades, Oklahoma Citys Asian District, which stretches along Classen Boulevard between NW 23 and NW 30 streets, has undergone numerous transformations.
> 
> Many buildings in the area have changed ownership time and time again as residents and business owners continue to invest in the community. Some structures have undergone major renovations, while other dilapidated buildings have been torn down, with new buildings constructed in their place...........read more...........

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## Spartan

Glorifying the good and the bad. The bad being that a lot of the development in the Asian District has been pretty emblematic of a city that doesn't encourage dense, cool development.

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## soonerfan_in_okc

hopefully the district continues to thrive in the future.  W/O any major asian immigrations on the horizon, the strength of the community will depend on the kids of these people deciding to live and interact in the area, and not take their talents elsewhere.

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## okclee

Not to completely disregard how far this district has come, but the city has put millions into cleaning up this area and in return has only seen a few "asian style" strip malls for new development. With future demolition for another strip mall coming soon, 30th and Classen. 

It's seems like another example of how this city as a whole keeps missing the mark. After reading the Okc Asian District Plan, http://www.okc.gov/planning/document...ict%20plan.pdf , written in Oct 2005, the plan looks very good but once again the execution is average. 

It seems like Okc.gov held up to it's end of the plan, but private developers haven't completely lived up to theirs, and are constantly trying to degrade their new developments, with only a few exceptions. 

My question is, Why does this happen regularly? Or does Okc need to face the facts.

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## krisb

Developers don't like the city trying to tell them what to do or how to build, even though city planners likely have the community's best interest in mind.

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## leprechaun

If at all possible, the time is now for putting an end to bait and switch tactics by developers.

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## Spartan

> Developers don't like the city trying to tell them what to do or how to build, even though city planners likely have the community's best interest in mind.


How could that be, when surely city planners trying to tell developers what to do are part of the Obama-Pelosi-UN cartel? It's all a big conspiracy out to get us.

I don't want to say the Asian District is a joke, because the city has done a really good job with the streetscape, and there are a few really good developments. The Super Cao Nguyen Market thing is pretty awesome. There are other good things. I think Sun Moon Plaza will eventually be a +, even though the building materials certainly seem pretty shoddy, but that's almost too much to ask for.

In other cases you almost cringe to see another development happen in there. This isn't supposed to be a recreation of Houston's Little Saigon area, which is waaaay out in the burbs.  This is 3 miles from downtown, about as inner city as it gets. This was an opportunity given to them. The city didn't have to do that streetscape. OKC rarely does, it must have taken a lot to compel them to invest in Classen.

It's the only nice part of Classen (streetscape-wise) and it has the worst development of anywhere along Classen.

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## okclee

The Asian District needs to do something with housing and making this area that people choose to live. The neighborhoods on both sides of Classen between 23rd and 36th are a little sketchy. Once again we have another example of Okc having a good place to visit but not a great place to live, being the Asian District. 

Many of us visit this area for various reasons (restaurants, shopping, grocery, offices space) but how many of us really would want to live in this area?

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## ljbab728

> The Asian District needs to do something with housing and making this area that people choose to live. The neighborhoods on both sides of Classen between 23rd and 36th are a little sketchy. Once again we have another example of Okc having a good place to visit but not a great place to live, being the Asian District. 
> 
> Many of us visit this area for various reasons (restaurants, shopping, grocery, offices space) but how many of us really would want to live in this area?


What would you suggest that they do?  Is the Asian District an entity that it able to make decisions about the housing areas surrounding it?

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## dcsooner

OKC's asian population really is relatively small for a"district". Area really needs greater population of asian citizens to truly become a district.  OKC as a whole needs a more diverse populous to become a interesting city with multiple cultural options

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## Bunty

> The Asian District needs to do something with housing and making this area that people choose to live. The neighborhoods on both sides of Classen between 23rd and 36th are a little sketchy. Once again we have another example of Okc having a good place to visit but not a great place to live, being the Asian District. 
> 
> Many of us visit this area for various reasons (restaurants, shopping, grocery, offices space) but how many of us really would want to live in this area?


Maybe some of the small apartment buildings need to be remodeled into single family homes.

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## Spartan

> OKC's asian population really is relatively small for a"district". Area really needs greater population of asian citizens to truly become a district.  OKC as a whole needs a more diverse populous to become a interesting city with multiple cultural options


OKC actually has a significant history of Vietnamese immigration. And a significant Vietnamese population.

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## Reggie Jet

In fact, dcsooner, Oklahoma City's Vietnamese/Southeast Asian community is quite well known. A few years ago, National Geographic did a profile of Little Saigon as part of their Zip Code snapshots. You can find it online here...

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ng...re6/index.html

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## wsucougz

> In fact, dcsooner, Oklahoma City's Vietnamese/Southeast Asian community is quite well known. A few years ago, National Geographic did a profile of Little Saigon as part of their Zip Code snapshots. You can find it online here...
> 
> http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ng...re6/index.html


Interesting article.  I've been to see the old doc a few times.  One of the questions on the patient questionnaire is "you want shot?"

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## bombermwc

I'd agree that it's housing. The area has some really awesome homes in it, and some really bad ones. The Paseo is just down the road with an equal issue. Unfortunately, unless you want to start tearing down homes, you don't really get much of an option to change...and who/how does it get decided that one house goes but another can stay?

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## Spartan

> I'd agree that it's housing. The area has some really awesome homes in it, and some really bad ones. The Paseo is just down the road with an equal issue. Unfortunately, unless you want to start tearing down homes, you don't really get much of an option to change...and who/how does it get decided that one house goes but another can stay?


Well that's not how neighborhood improvement is carried out anyway.

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## SSEiYah

> The neighborhoods on both sides of Classen between 23rd and 36th are a little sketchy. Once again we have another example of Okc having a good place to visit but not a great place to live



I live in the area. It is a great place to live for a 20 or 30 something year old with no kids. No crime, good neighbors. Just west of Edgemere park is a great place to live if you are in your 20s/30s or retired. Obviously if I had kids I would move to Edmond or far NW OKC however since I have no kids this area is perfect. It is diverse ethnically and near many good restaurants. 

I cant say the same for the neighborhoods west of Western Ave, they get shady quick as you head toward Penn. I would say anything west of western is cool, however east of western gets ghetto until you get to Nichols hills on the north or mesta park on the south.

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## Bunty

> I live in the area. It is a great place to live for a 20 or 30 something year old with no kids. No crime, good neighbors. Just west of Edgemere park is a great place to live if you are in your 20s/30s or retired. Obviously if I had kids I would move to Edmond or far NW OKC however since I have no kids this area is perfect. It is diverse ethnically and near many good restaurants.


By the way, are you missing a black, stray cat in your neighborhood off NW 26th and Classen since last month?  If so, don't worry.  I made friends with him, grabbed him, took him to a vet to have him fixed, checked and vaccinated.  He's mine now.  His picture is below:

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## Spartan

You probably saved him from being dinner in the Asian District.

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## MikeOKC

I've had more than one cop tell me the Asian District is one of the safer areas to live. Fewer burglaries and robberies at the business establishments as well. These people work for a living as it's part of their culture to work hard and not expect government handouts. They say certain criminal elements that terrorize Oklahoma City stay away from the Asian District. The Asians aren't intimidated by the gangsta ways of these groups and don't put up with it. Those gangstas also know most all of the business people in the AD are ARMED and aren't afraid to defend themselves. One officer said he worked in two divisions and the difference was startling: for every one call in the Asian District there are dozens and dozens in the Lyrewood area alone. Two cultures, two outcomes.

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## Spartan

Well, the Asian District is not a ghetto, it just has some streets that are still rundown, and a main corridor that has had some disappointing development mixed in with awesome development. Lyrewood is a ghetto. And the south side would be more like the Asian District if people would leave the Latinos alone. Very similarly strong cultural values.

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## BG918

> I live in the area. It is a great place to live for a 20 or 30 something year old with no kids. No crime, good neighbors. Just west of Edgemere park is a great place to live if you are in your 20s/30s or retired. Obviously if I had kids I would move to Edmond or far NW OKC however since I have no kids this area is perfect. It is diverse ethnically and near many good restaurants. 
> 
> I cant say the same for the neighborhoods west of Western Ave, they get shady quick as you head toward Penn. I would say anything west of western is cool, however *east of western gets ghetto* until you get to Nichols hills on the north or mesta park on the south.


East of Western is ghetto?  That's Crown Heights/Edgemere Park.

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## edcrunk

I lived in the Asian district for a long time and never had any problems. I have tons of friends that live all over that area. Bunches of my friends are all about some pho and are regulars at the restaurants. Greenhouse and prohibition room seem to be thriving and we average 400 people every Wednesday at kamp's... so there's starting to be some nightlife there as well. 
But I agree with you, Spartan, in regard to them tearing down interesting, old brick buildings and slapping up cheap, EIFS covered ones.

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## metro

This is the oddest thread about the "Asian District" I've ever seen on here. Nothing but drivel.

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## Architect2010

> And the south side would be more like the Asian District if people would leave the Latinos alone. Very similarly strong cultural values.


So incredibly true.

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## metro

Sun Moon Plaza is finally picking up some steam again, looks like Rent A Center will move in and be torn down soon. Also, T-Mobile is moving in to the round rotunda like suite on the SE corner of the complex.

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## Rover

> Originally Posted by Spartan  
> And the south side would be more like the Asian District if people would leave the Latinos alone. Very similarly strong cultural values.


Spartan,
What are you referencing to when indicating the Latino businesspeople haven't been left alone?  Have they tried to create a district and invest like the Asian district but some people or groups are stopping them?

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## pickles

> So incredibly true.


I would hope I could be forgiven if I suggest that the industriousness and entreprenuerial vigor on display in most Asian immigrant communities has not been evident to quite the same degree in most of America's latino communities.  I'm not sure what "cultural values" are being referred to by Spartan, but I suspect it has more to do with some romantic conception of family life than with the values that drive people to achieve and produce.  There is no conspiracy to prevent development on the south side of Oklahoma City.

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## bornhere

There's a ton of Latino business development in OKC. It may not be as noticeable because it's more spread out, but it's definitely happening.

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## Spartan

> Spartan,
> What are you referencing to when indicating the Latino businesspeople haven't been left alone?  Have they tried to create a district and invest like the Asian district but some people or groups are stopping them?


A business is not just reliant on good business owners, but it's reliant on the target demographic as well. HB 1804 caused a very marked decline (some experienced 30-50% decline immediately, and I don't know if that's been recovered, but there's been a little recession since then) in business in most Latino-owned businesses of the southside. If the legislature is successful in more Latino community-killing pieces of legislation (like Randy Terrill's new proposed "Arizona-Plus," if he can pull it off while under indictment), then obviously that's even worse for business. I don't want to get political at all, but it's hard to not note the ramifications these and other things have for revitalizing the Latino part of OKC.

And this isn't directed at you Rover, but at a few others, that I won't respond to purely political replies...

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## Rover

> And this isn't directed at you Rover, but at a few others, that I won't respond to purely political replies...


Thanks for your explanation.  I didn't take it as a personal response.  I just thought I had missed something, but now you have clarified.  

Regardless of the politics, it would seem to be wise for the Latino community to focus on a fairly compact area as the center of their community and develop from that point out.  I would assume Capital Hill to have the most potential to do that.  That way, regardless of political action and consequences, the core will stand and development radiate from there and the question will be "how far".  If the Latino business community can come together that is something they can build on, but if their efforts are scattered over a wide area with disjointed agendae then the kinds of population degradation will undermine any ethnic oriented efforts.

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## Spartan

All I know is before Latinos arrived in Oklahoma, the south side was largely abandoned and vacant. Now that they're here, houses have been fixed up and become occupied. There is a community where there used to be a vacuum. A world of difference.

Good post, by the way.

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## Larry OKC

And in some neighborhoods the houses they have moved into have fallen into more disrepair, cars parked on the grass (my dads next door neighbor even had the nerve to park on his grass and tear up the lawn when he ran out of room on his own property). Graffiti has become widespread and once where you felt safe walking down to the local convenience store or Braums after dark, well, lets just say not any more. Guns being fired on New Years and other holidays...etc.

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## Rover

> And in some neighborhoods the houses they have moved into have fallen into more disrepair, cars parked on the grass (my dads next door neighbor even had the nerve to park on his grass and tear up the lawn when he ran out of room on his own property). Graffiti has become widespread and once where you felt safe walking down to the local convenience store or Braums after dark, well, lets just say not any more. Guns being fired on New Years and other holidays...etc.


Well, many old neighborhoods go through the same, regardless of ethnicity.  Neighborhoods age, some decay and the low cost then brings in a level of resident that may be unsavory.  Then, when superceding dynamics occur there is a value placed on the area not by current demand but by future demand due to location, expanding other areas, etc.  Then there is acquisition and improvement.  If the Latino business community is forward thinking and gets a head start on profiting from the location value of Capital Hill with its views and proximity to the new park, downtown, etc., then it can create a vibrant area with ethnic highlights and create long term value for their community.  What you describe actually might open the door to the reclamation by making acquisition affordable for risk takers.

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## NWOKCGuy

Asian District listed as one of 10 must see, previously blighted neighborhoods on MSN.

http://realestate.msn.com/10-neighbo...es?gt1=35006#8

Slide 8 of 12.

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## MustangGT

If the blight that is the old KAMPS market would burn down as that is an eyesore in its current ownership/management.

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## Doug Loudenback

Thanks, NWOkcGuy. Pretty cool.

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## Skyline

Love the Asian District!

Has anyone tried out the New Car Wash? 

It looks to be very nice, fully automated.

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## Architect2010

> If the blight that is the old KAMPS market would burn down as that is an eyesore in its current ownership/management.


How so? It's a nice old building. Not to mention, KAMPS is one of the more popular youth-oriented clubs; and clean on the inside too. Please, don't let it burn down for the sake of the building and decent night-life that isn't concentrated in the 21+ zone of Bricktown. All because of "management."

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## metro

Also, Sun Moon Plaza is shaping in nicely, Tmobile opened awhile back, Rent a Center moved in and tore down their old metal warehouse type building, and the Super Buffet is undergoing a major facelift.

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## oakhollow

Kamps is for sale btw....

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## Architect2010

Let's hope they get a good buyer willing to invest some TLC into the exterior.

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## Rover

If one drove Classen from 23rd to 36th a few years ago and again now they would be mightily impressed with the turn-around.  It was a rotting street and surroundings that is now dotted with new structures and cleaned up and reinvigorated new ones.  Local owners have shown faith in themselves and their community and it looks like it will pay off.  I think OKC is much better because of the Asian district advances.  

I hope Kamps makes it...it has a lot of memories in it.

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## Spartan

> If the blight that is the old KAMPS market would burn down as that is an eyesore in its current ownership/management.


Are you serious?

The construction along Classen just needs to stop including enormous setbacks. That is frustrating, I am totally opposed to spending a dime on public improvement if it is only going to be a catalyst for adding more parking. I want to see more sustainable or at least more attractive development as a return on the public investment.

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## metro

> are you serious?
> 
> The construction along classen just needs to stop including enormous setbacks. That is frustrating, i am totally opposed to spending a dime on public improvement if it is only going to be a catalyst for adding more parking. I want to see more sustainable or at least more attractive development as a return on the public investment.


this ^

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## Skyline

This reminds me a little of Bricktown. The public tax dollars were spent to spark private dollar investing, and it has worked. But once the first few new construction projects got started with less than desirable design aspects, it is now time to up the criteria for new developments in the Asian District. 

Again much like Bricktown has done. Lower quality and design was allowed to be built initially, but later the standards changed and are now more stringent as to the design and sustainability. 

It will be interesting to see the project that is to be built at NW 30th & Classen, were the fire destroyed building once stood.

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## Rover

These projects develop over time.  Run down buildings are being replaced by better ones.  People want to be there.  Business increases making the area even more valuable.  Soon land becomes worth more and sprawling surface lots get replaced with higher density development.  

I think it is very encouraging to see clean new developments happening, even if they aren't perfect.  The only way to completely control it otherwise is to have much tighter restrictions...which would likely tend to drive investments to other areas and make improvement happen much more slowly.  Remember, perfection is the enemy of improvement.

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## Architect2010

People may criticize that particular development, but the plans I saw showed buildings that fronted Classen, were of course Asian-themed, and the parking lot was in the center of the development. It look[ED!] a lot better than some of the older strip projects, like the one that houses Greenhouse.

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## Spartan

I hope you're right 2010, but surely you'll understand that some of us aren't holding our breath.

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## Architect2010

Of course. I can see it being a complete piece of suburban crap too. I'm just hopeful that this could actually be a worthwhile development for Classen/Asian District.

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## Rover

Realistically, 25-30 blocks from the core, how much true high density urban development is going to be done.  Even in Dallas, a city with 3 times our population, at 30 blocks out it isn't developed in a high density way...lots of strip centers, suburban style office buildings, surface parking lots, etc.  So, we need to first accept that the rundown area needs to improve and it is being improved.  Hopefully we will start to see elements of urban style, but it will likely be awhile before that area is truly urban.  Meanwhile, while everyone on here looks down their nose at the suburbs, good projects along here, even if they MIGHT fit in the suburbs will be a great improvement over the rundown, dilapidated and ugly property that has populated the area the last few decades.

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## HOT ROD

Dallas only has double the pop of okc (not 3 times), just sayin.

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## Rover

Guess you are right, but Dallas area is 3 times the population and with FW  5 1/2 times.  

Dallas 1.4 mil, OKC 580,000.  Dallas FW Metro 6.4 million.  OKC 1.25

Anyway, point is that even at substantially bigger population 30 blks out of downtown is developed in a more suburban way than urban.  For us to expect 23-30 blocks out on classen to develop now as a heavily urban neighborhood is just probably wishful thinking.  Would be nice though.  We can hope DD, midtown, CTS, SOSA, etc. will become urban first.

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## MikeOKC

> Dallas only has double the pop of okc (not 3 times), just sayin.


DFW metro is pushing seven million, Hot Rod.

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## dankrutka

I wouldn't count Dallas and Fort Worth as one thing when making comparisons to OKC. People that grow up in the Ft Worth area don't go to Dallas that much. They have their own downtown, urban area. Even if there is some cross over and advantages to the whole DFW area, I think it's fair to compare OKC to Dallas and Fort Worth separately.

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## Rover

OK, compare OKC to Dallas.  But if you are really comparing, use the same criteria.  OKC proper is over 600 square miles.  Dallas proper is about 350.  If you take the same area into account I stand by the assertion that Dallas is MUCH bigger and still not heavily urban 2-3 miles out from downtown.  To expect OKC to be is wishful thinking.

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## Skyline

I think it simply comes down to getting the most out of the citizens tax dollars being invested in this area. 

Phase 1; Okc invests public money in a specific distressed area of Okc. In this case the Asian District between 23rd and 30th along Classen. Tax dollars are spent on aesthetic improvements and infrastructure. 

Phase 2; Private money soon follows with new developments and new businesses sprouting within the area. 

Phase 3; Property values rise for everyone in the district. Tax dollars collected are also increased with the new businesses and developments.

Phase 4; Getting the most out of the area. This is a fine line of implementing design quality code enforcement, while not be viewed as anti-business.

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## chuck johnson

My family was one of the first Vietnamese families in OKC. My dad's first job was washing dishes at the Skirvin Hotel. I also remember when there was nothing other than the original Cao Nguyen. I'm late to this thread, but I think I can give some insight regarding the area, how it came to be, and where it may be headed.

After the Fall of Saigon in 1975, 125,000 Vietnamese made their way to the US. They were sent to refugee camps such as Camp Pendleton and in nearby Ft. Chaffee in Arkansas. Now after processing, they weren't simply allowed to go as you wished. If they were, they would all head to certain areas such as California and thereby overwhelm that area's resources. Rather, they were distributed across the United States relative to an area's resources. 

The exception was if they had a sponsor. Someone who would take a certain level of liability and care for these refugees. In what I consider to be one of this country's finest moments, churches and other civic groups came forward by the hundreds if not thousands. These organizations taught the refugees how to speak English, pass their driving test, citizenship test, pay their taxes, start businesses, and all of the parts of being an American than many take for granted. What do you make for Thanksgiving? What is Thanksgiving? The Vietnamese refugees were given a level of support that few other immigrant group have received.

Oklahoma was no exception to this outpouring of assistance. This wave of refugees was also arguably Vietnam's elite. These were the educated, skilled, or connected. These were the people who would have been imprisoned or punished had they stayed behind.  Additionally, the refugees had members who would become strong leaders within the new community. This confluence of hospitality, strong leadership, and a very determined group is why this district exists. 

There are not a lot of Vietnamese in Oklahoma City. There are certainly more than one would think but not a lot. Despite efforts to spread us out, many did leave for California, Texas, etc. It wasn't a knock against Oklahoma, but a matter of comfort in numbers and other opportunities. Many more though, have stayed and thus the district has grown. It has grown despite most  Vietnamese no longer living in the area. The Asian District will always exist simply because of the quality of the food. If you are Vietnamese or a fan of Vietnamese food, this area is your overall best bet. There are gems hidden elsewhere in the city, but not like this. The food has a created a cultural hub similar to Japantowns and Koreatowns across the country.

However, there are not enough Vietnamese in the city for the district to grow. It needs support from those who are not Vietnamese. We need to get beyond the point of tolerating different cultures and truly CELEBRATING different cultures. Vietnamese food is pretty inexpensive and very good. If you haven't had Dim Sum at Grand House you are truly missing out on a spectacle. Lee's Sandwiches has a plethora of inexpensive food adventures. Golden Phoenix does a 7-course beef tasting for about $13. If it's not your thing, take your kids down to the Asian market. It's like poor man's Sea World Aquarium. Pretend you're on No Reservations with Anthony Bourdain.

In regards to the developments in the area, I refer you back to Grand House. That is how it should be done. No front parking, it's all in the back. Instead, the building is closer to the street buffered by a sidewalk and great landscaping.  Picture all of Classen with that design sensibility. It would be really great thoroughfare with an engaging, walkable streetscape. That level intimacy may even calm traffic. This would not cost any more to implement, but it requires a greater vision of what is possible. Unattractive buildings can be greatly mitigated with shrubs and trees. An ocean of parking in front does not help.

Urban planning should not be too rigid, but it should have a set standard with some "wiggle" room or quid pro quo. Developers love parking but if  they want a lot of parking, ask for a lot of landscaping. If they'll agree to a different roofing material, waive some inspection fees. Give them expedited service in return for a few concessions. You certainly want to encourage development, but agreeing to a building that's life cycle may be 50+ years without serious consideration can be a mistake. I'll be the first to admit that some of this Asian inspired architecture is garish and cheap. That extra landscaping may be the best thing that comes out of the whole deal. 

I'm rambling now, but since the comparison was made earlier in this thread I'll say a bit more. I think most Vietnamese here have a great sympathy towards the Hispanic immigrants that have come here. You'll see many of them working in the kitchens and fish markets in the Asian district. These new immigrants are not receiving the same level of support, but both groups have had to endure some of the same struggles. As wonderful as most Oklahomans were to my family, there were more than a few who were not and more than a few who continue to be so. 

I'm aware that more than a few of these new immigrants may be here illegally, but the ones who are here legally are trying to forge their own district. Hopefully they succeed.....if only because of how good authentic Oaxacan, Peruvian, Guatemalan, etc food can be.

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## dankrutka

Wow. Great post with some solid insights. I hope the Asian District becomes even more successful in the future...

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## ljbab728

> I'm rambling now, but since the comparison was made earlier in this thread I'll say a bit more. I think most Vietnamese here have a great sympathy towards the Hispanic immigrants that have come here. You'll see many of them working in the kitchens and fish markets in the Asian district. These new immigrants are not receiving the same level of support, but both groups have had to endure some of the same ugly comments and disdain. As wonderful as most Oklahomans were to my family, there were more than a few who were not and more than a few who continue to be so. 
> 
> I'm aware that more than a few of these new immigrants may be here illegally, but the ones who are here legally are trying to forge their own district. Hopefully they succeed.....if only because of how good authentic Oaxacan, Peruvian, Guatemalan, etc food can be.


This is exactly what came to my mind when I first started reading your post.  I applaud you for bringing this up and agree with you completely.

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## Questor

That was a great post chuck, thanks for sharing. Grand House may be one of my favorite restaurants in the city. I was so happy for them when they moved across the street to their current location years ago. I was in there a while back and was happy to see the older gentleman who has always been at the front greeting guests was still there!  I could not believe it. 

I am a big fan of the Pho places in the area. To me Vietnamese food always strikes me as a healthier, fresher option and I like the fact that so many of the dishes are free of soy sauce (I am not a big fan). For me the district has really helped me to see the fantastic variety of foods and cultures of Asia. At home I often make my own dishes that are combinations of things I like about several of them... The lightness and unique flavors of Vietnamese, spiciness of Thai, the pickled dishes of Korea... It's fantastic. Never would have known without the area. Oddly enough understanding the food has helped me to better understand the people. It is said that math is the universal language, but often times I wonder if it isn't really food.

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## stlokc

Thank you for your post, Chuck, and thanks for the follow up, Questor. I love discussions that demonstrate the diversity of OKC and I learned some things with this one.
Regarding urban design, there is no reason that urban style development can't exist 30 blocks, or 60 blocks, or 100 blocks from downtown. Many if not most successful cities are really patchworks of neighborhoods with small urban clusters at the neighborhoods' hearts. I live in St. Louis and there are dozens of these little urban "nodes", with six or eight square block walkable streetscapes many miles out. These places add character. But in reality, nothing inside the Grand Blvd loop can really be considered "suburban." Look at Western below Chesapeake or Capitol Hill as OKC examples. I say, add the density and grow the "urban" core of OKC.

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## Urban Pioneer

Great, awesome, post!!!

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## Spartan

> In regards to the developments in the area, I refer you back to Grand House. That is how it should be done. No front parking, it's all in the back. Instead, the building is closer to the street buffered by a sidewalk and great landscaping.  Picture all of Classen with that design sensibility. It would be really great thoroughfare with an engaging, walkable streetscape. That level intimacy may even calm traffic. This would not cost any more to implement, but it requires a greater vision of what is possible. Unattractive buildings can be greatly mitigated with shrubs and trees. An ocean of parking in front does not help.
> 
> Urban planning should not be too rigid, but it should have a set standard with some "wiggle" room or quid pro quo. Developers love parking but if  they want a lot of parking, ask for a lot of landscaping. If they'll agree to a different roofing material, waive some inspection fees. Give them expedited service in return for a few concessions. You certainly want to encourage development, but agreeing to a building that's life cycle may be 50+ years without serious consideration can be a mistake. I'll be the first to admit that some of this Asian inspired architecture is garish and cheap. That extra landscaping may be the best thing that comes out of the whole deal.


Awesome, awesome post, and I agree wholeheartedly with the cultural insights I cut out of your quote, I just have nothing to add to it. As for development, we all know that the city apparatus is not going to become this wonderful proactive development entity. It's going to continue to poorly process projects, fail to apply good planning measures to OKC, and it will fall well short in giving individual attention to certain areas. Expecting more of the same service, in this situation, how do you see the Asian District 5-10-15 years from now?

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## HarryMoto

> Realistically, 25-30 blocks from the core, how much true high density urban development is going to be done.  Even in Dallas, a city with 3 times our population, at 30 blocks out it isn't developed in a high density way...lots of strip centers, suburban style office buildings, surface parking lots, etc.  So, we need to first accept that the rundown area needs to improve and it is being improved.  Hopefully we will start to see elements of urban style, but it will likely be awhile before that area is truly urban.  Meanwhile, while everyone on here looks down their nose at the suburbs, good projects along here, even if they MIGHT fit in the suburbs will be a great improvement over the rundown, dilapidated and ugly property that has populated the area the last few decades.


As a Dallas resident, I agree and somewhat disagree. While much of the city's development is suburban, Dallas has several nodes of urban development that aren't downtown. I would offer Lower Greenville Avenue in East Dallas, McKinney Avenue in Uptown, Cedar Springs Avenue in Oak Lawn, and the Bishop Arts District in Oak Cliff as examples. No one's going to confuse them with Manhattan but they're there. Since moving here, I've yet to make it up to OKC though one of the first places I want to go to when I visit is the Asian District.

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## chuck johnson

> As for development, we all know that the city apparatus is not going to become this wonderful proactive development entity. It's going to continue to poorly process projects, fail to apply good planning measures to OKC, and it will fall well short in giving individual attention to certain areas. Expecting more of the same service, in this situation, how do you see the Asian District 5-10-15 years from now?


I think the newer of generation of urban planners have better grasp of urban needs than their predecessors who were taught to design cities around cars and sprawl. As the "good ol' boys" retire and we get some younger blood into the planning department change will come. Hopefully the new generation will be able to avoid the pitfalls and pressures placed on them by political and financial interests. 

My background is in architecture and I worked as a designer/drafter in the San Francisco Bay Area for a few years. One of my early tasks was to grab permits and go to planning meetings. Much of this was in Silicon Valley where the planning environment was much more progressive. There was a collaborative effort by planners and developers. Planners actually wanted the developments to succeed and consequently the developers seemed to be really proactive in meeting given requirements. 

My first meeting was a debacle. I pretty much did  everything wrong. They were not happy and thought I was trying to pull a fast one. I told the planners that it was my first time and they enthusiastically held my hand through the entire process. They even invited me to come down anytime and sit in on their plan reviews of others. The lead planner promised to call me if there was anything coming up that was relevant to my project. He did too. They not only helped my project succeed but educated me in the process. Keep in mind, we didn't get nearly everything we wanted. I'm no longer in the field and don't know what the atmosphere here is, but it certainly seems as though there is a disconnect, a lack of vision, and lack of "teeth" in the department.

The only recourse is within the community. I lived in San Francisco proper and when any new development occurred, the owner was required to post a giant "poster" on the property and take and ad stating the project intentions and notify the community of the next planning meeting. In an urban/dense environment, a single structure can impact the community greatly. It impacts traffic, safety, business, etc. While it was sometimes contentious and sometimes I saw projects rejected that I thought were great, the community usually turned out to be correct. The developments that succeeded were the ones where the ownership engaged the local community and addressed concerns and questions. 

I understand that we are in a recession and want to encourage as much investment and development as possible, but that's really no excuse to expect more from developers.  The community should not be afraid to engage those who are building in their neighborhood and developers should engage said community. The community gets a better project and the developer makes a nice profit, a product he/she can be proud, and credibility within the community.

As for the Asian district, it's only dilemma is that so few Asians reside in the area. Most have moved to the suburbs. The younger generation is coming back but they aren't coming back to run the businesses for the most part. There really aren't that many businesses and it won't take much for the area to regress. Grand House would be a tremendous loss. That is not only among the best in the area, but the most credible. It defies many stereotypes about Asian restaurants and I think the best Chinese restaurant in the city. (I like the original Dot Wo but it really needs a makeover). It pains me to know that there are people waiting 45+ minutes at PF Chang when the we have the real deal in Grand House. I'll say it again, if you haven't had dim sum and a Sat. or Sun. morning, you are really missing out on what has become a ritual for many.

Overall though, I think the Asian District will stand the test of time. It's become too important within the Vietnamese community and the hub of its culture. Restaurants may come and go but the expectation and demand for quality among food crazy Asians will offset any turnover. I do think Super Cao Nguyen may have become too big and powerful. There have been a few niche businesses that have folded since it arrived. It was just too much competition for Vietnamese dollars. At the same time it serves as a tremendous anchor for the area. 

We live in a time when people are becoming far more adventurous regarding food. We also have a generation+ of young people who grew up with Vietnamese friends and classmates. For the most part, the xenophobia towards Asian people in OKC is gone. I still get a kick out of seeing non-Vietnamese people slurping up bowls of noodles and seeing the wide eyes at Cao Nguyen. As I noted earlier, it's the non-Asian residents who will really determine the future of the district regarding growth.

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## Architect2010

What another awesome post. Very thorough in your thoughts, and I can relate to being the non-Vietnamese kid in the Asian District. I love Cao Nguyen... and any form of noodle they have.

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## Spartan

Anyone know what is going on with Jade Plaza between 23rd and Kamp's? I've noticed scaffolding on the east facade fronting Classen for a while, and now some masonry is tore up in the front - looks like some significant work.

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## Skyline

> Anyone know what is going on with Jade Plaza between 23rd and Kamp's? I've noticed scaffolding on the east facade fronting Classen for a while, and now some masonry is tore up in the front - looks like some significant work.


Jade plaza (_24th & Classen - west side of street_) is about half way finished with an extensive exterior addition. They are adding the ornamental Asian inspired architecture elements to this once run down looking shopping center. This should look really nice once it is finished, big upgrade for the Asian district.

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## metro

Yeah it's been coming along nicely, dramatic improvement.

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## Bits_Of_Real_Panther

> You probably saved him from being dinner in the Asian District.


 rawr!

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## ljbab728

Brianna Bailey's update on the Milk Bottle Building.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5297789?embargo=1




> A quirky Oklahoma City landmark since 1930, the milk bottle grocery building at NW 23 and N Classen is being restored to its original appearance.
> “The windows have been boarded up for a long time and they are going to completely redo the inside and get it ready for another tenant,” said Catherine Montgomery, preservation architect at Preservation & Design Studio, who has assisted with the renovations.

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## Mel

A flavored milk bar also serving soy and almond milk. Or a bubble tea drive thru.

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## trousers

Milk bar?

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## Mr. Cotter

Maybe hometown hero Danny Bowein could convince his good friend David Chang to open a Momofuku Milk Bar: OKC.  

Momofuku Milk Bar | we're momofuku milk bar, a bakery in nyc. we make cookies, cakes, pies and more!

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## Mel

> Milk bar?


Not quite like that one.  :Wink:

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## Pete

Classen Coffee opened today at 2515 N. Classen.

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## luke911

I can't wait to visit Classen Coffee. I was in this building a couple years ago when the church to the south used it as storage. It blew me away that such a beautiful building was just sitting tucked away back there sitting empty. From what I've seen on social media they've done an amazing job on all fronts.

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## Timshel

> I can't wait to visit Classen Coffee. I was in this building a couple years ago when the church to the south used it as storage. It blew me away that such a beautiful building was just sitting tucked away back there sitting empty. From what I've seen on social media they've done an amazing job on all fronts.


I stopped in this morning and the building is great. They did a good job keeping the original character. The interior is a bit "rustic" and reminds me of Elemental in that regard, which I like but may not suit everyone's design taste. Sounds like they're working on finishing out the basement as well which will provide a lot more seating. One of the baristas said that when they began the renovations the basement was completely flooded and the stairs had rotted away. I presume they'll do everything they can to limit the risk of future moisture and look forward to seeing it finished out. 

More importantly, the coffee was good. First time in a long time that I've been able to drink a true dry cappuccino and not what essentially amounts to a tiny latte (yes - I'm particular about my coffee  - is what working at coffee shops through college will do to you). Glad to have this near my house - will become part of the rotation.

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## LocoAko

Not sure if this deserves its own thread (yet) since it is so early in the process, but a Vietnamese fast-food concept called "Classen F&B" has been proposed for Classen and NW 25th on the empty lot, which is a pretty visible corner and should have some (shielded) outdoor seating. It still needs to go through the Urban Design Commission and City Council, but I'm glad to see something being proposed here on such a small lot. As a resident in the area, I'm appreciate the increasing attention to and development in the Asian district beginning to take place (e.g., this, the apartments on NW 26th, the multi-unit developments west of Classen, etc.).

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## Pete

^

It will be a drive-thru Vietnamese noodle place.

It's yet to be named.

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## Bowser214

There’s new MILK signage on the front doors and people in the Milk Bottle building on Classen

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## Bullbear

> There’s new MILK signage on the front doors and people in the Milk Bottle building on Classen


yes it will be a nail salon .. its a cute story actually. she has always wanted to have a salon there is why she named her Salon MILK to begin with. and now that dream is coming true for her.

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## TheTravellers

> yes it will be a nail salon .. its a cute story actually. she has always wanted to have a salon there is why she named her Salon MILK to begin with. and now that dream is coming true for her.


Very cool, wondering how many nail techs and customers it can have inside at one time?

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## Bullbear

> Very cool, wondering how many nail techs and customers it can have inside at one time?


I don't know for sure , but I feel like she will be only tech there, maybe another. but yah I wonder how many people will fit.

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## Bowser214

That was my first thought when I saw the people inside dressed in all black sitting at workstations with ring lights. So cool!

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## Bullbear

This was her post about it.

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## Bits_Of_Real_Panther

Bun bo hue
Bn b Huế

Any recommendations for where to try?

I'm not traveling to Vietnam

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## Roger S

> Bun bo hue
> Bn b Huế
> 
> Any recommendations for where to try?
> 
> I'm not traveling to Vietnam


Pho Lien Hoa .... take cash... they don't take plastic

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## sooner88

> Pho Lien Hoa .... take cash... they don't take plastic


The new location does on Penn does FYI

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## Thomas Vu

> The new location does on Penn does FYI


That's good to know.  Maybe I'll start going there again.  It was a deal breaker for me.

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## Bits_Of_Real_Panther

> Pho Lien Hoa .... take cash... they don't take plastic


Thanks for the recommendation

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## David

> This was her post about it.


That's really cool.

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## BridgeBurner

Oh nice! Good for Zitta she's a cool gal

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## Urbanized

> Oh nice! Good for Zitta she's a cool gal


Agreed.  She worked for me years ago. Funny, smart, a little bit saucy, hardworking and full of good ideas. Glad to see someone who cares about that building get a chance to activate it.

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