# OKCpedia > General Real Estate Topics >  Mystery Tower( speculation, news and ideas) post here!

## coov23

This is another BIG and exciting time for our city! Let the talks begin here!

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## Jesseda

A guy that i go to church who has been working on the devon tower told me a awhile back that there was talk about a 40 story tower, but just the other day he was telling me that there is talk that sandridge is building a tall tower but it will be smaller then devon but a little bit bigger then chase building, he joked saying seems like sandridge always wants to compete with devon lately but it looks like they will settle for 2nd when it comes to how tall the building will be.. To me I thought I read sandridge was only going to be 1020 stories? Could it atually be bigger then 1020 stories? Anybody hear this yet? also about the mystery tower, I wonder if it will be a whole new company relocating into our state and buildinga huge tower, is there any rumors about a fortune 500 company relocating to okc?

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## bombermwc

I've never seen anything from Sandridge that indicated anything more than 10-20 floors. And unless they have 50ft ceilings, you're not looking at the height of Chase either. They have plenty room to grow in the KMG tower and their new extra buildings they're doing give them even more room. I know we would all love to see it, but i feel like it's more rumor than substance.

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## Bellaboo

> A guy that i go to church who has been working on the devon tower told me a awhile back that there was talk about a 40 story tower, but just the other day he was telling me that there is talk that sandridge is building a tall tower but it will be smaller then devon but a little bit bigger then chase building, he joked saying seems like sandridge always wants to compete with devon lately but it looks like they will settle for 2nd when it comes to how tall the building will be.. To me I thought I read sandridge was only going to be 1020 stories? Could it atually be bigger then 1020 stories? Anybody hear this yet? also about the mystery tower, I wonder if it will be a whole new company relocating into our state and buildinga huge tower, is there any rumors about a fortune 500 company relocating to okc?


I'm sure it will be less than 1020 storys. lol    you probably mean 10/20 storys  ?

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## lasomeday

I was walking by the Century Center Parking Garage today and I was thinking what a waste of space.  That would be a great place for a 30 story residential tower.  It is caddy corner to the Myriad Gardens and next to a lot of office towers.  It could have a parking garage included in the design and actually increase the number of parking spaces.

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## Jesseda

> I'm sure it will be less than 1020 storys. lol    you probably mean 10/20 storys  ?


yes 10-20 stories, but 1020 stories would be something to see

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## lasomeday

> yes 10-20 stories, but 1020 stories would be something to see


From Dallas!

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## Jesseda

haha, that would put a stop to texans saying everything is bigger and better in texas. I can just see them in Dallas trying to say everything is bigger and better, while that 1020 story okc tower is shadowing over them, oh well, we can dream lol

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## coov23

This thread already has digressed. That didn't take long.

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## CurtisJ

A friend of my cousin's houscleaners mom said that he heard a rumor that Exxon Mobil was moving their corprate headquarters to OKC!

Sorry, couldn't resist.  I do know that a certain CEO of a large energy company has been contacting some very large companies to try and convince them to relocate headquarters to Oklahoma City.  I do not know if those efforts have yeilded any success, the one concrete example that I know of seemed incredibly ambitious (Fortune 100 company).  Either way, this is a very exciting time for OKC.

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## G.Walker

> A friend of my cousin's houscleaners mom said


this....

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## king183

> he heard a rumor that Exxon Mobil was moving their corprate headquarters to OKC!



Heh. Just wait.

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## metro

> This thread already has digressed. That didn't take long.


It regressed by starting the thread.

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## Pete

> I do know that a certain CEO of a large energy company has been contacting some very large companies to try and convince them to relocate headquarters to Oklahoma City.  I do not know if those efforts have yeilded any success, the one concrete example that I know of seemed incredibly ambitious (Fortune 100 company).


Since we are just throwing around speculation, why not name the company?

There has been lots of smoke about the Chamber making strong progress with a large company but I have no idea who it its.  "Fortune 100" is a pretty short list, especially when you eliminate about 75% due to complete implausibility.


The one company from that list that leaps out to me is Sunoco.  Energy company HQ'd in Philadelphia #68 on the list.

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## Jesseda

it really has not disgressed, you title mystery tower, so yeah people are going to talk about what they hear, predicting how big it might be, who will build it, who will be jealous of it, the title of the starting thread says keyword "MYSTERY" so yeah your going to get a lot of, a friend of a friend and rumors, or how cool would it be if it was a mega tower, etc  thats what makes things a mystery. i would say people posting these things on this thread is the opposite of digressed, because most people are focusing and trying to solve the mystery.

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## king183

> Since we are just throwing around speculation, why not name the company?
> 
> There has been lots of smoke about the Chamber making strong progress with a large company but I have no idea who it its.  "Fortune 100" is a pretty short list, especially when you eliminate about 75% due to complete implausibility.
> 
> 
> The one company from that list that leaps out to me is Sunoco.  Energy company HQ'd in Philadelphia #68 on the list.



I've heard ConocoPhillips is undergoing a major restructuring, splitting into two different units.  One of those units would fit nicely here.

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## Bellaboo

> I've heard ConocoPhillips is undergoing a major restructuring, splitting into two different units.  One of those units would fit nicely here.


I understand they are either relocating to or building a large structure in a complex a few miles northwest of downtown Denver....they have a complex in the tech center (south of Denver) and are moving it.

But that would make sense, they already have a large state presence and I heard a rumor they want out of Bartlesville, due to lack of the ability to recruit in a smaller town, same as CR.

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## CurtisJ

> Since we are just throwing around speculation, why not name the company?..."Fortune 100" is a pretty short list, especially when you eliminate about 75% due to complete implausibility


Because I am unsure of how gaurded this information is, and I would not want to violate the trust of someone close to me.  And for the record, the company I was refering to probably falls in that 75% that is completely implausible, the point that I was trying to make is that there are some VERY ambitious efforts being made to bring companies to OKC and it would be interesting if this mystery tower wasn't being built by a company that currently has little or no current presence in OKC.

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## Pete

ConocoPhillips is separating it's pipeline/refinery business from it's exploration arm.

I can't imagine either moving away from Houston.

I know they have different units scattered around so perhaps one could be coming to OKC -- hopefully not at the expense of Bartlesville.

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## Jesseda

> Because I am unsure of how gaurded this information is, and I would not want to violate the trust of someone close to me.  And for the record, the company I was refering to probably falls in that 75% that is completely implausible, the point that I was trying to make is that there are some VERY ambitious efforts being made to bring companies to OKC and it would be interesting if this mystery tower wasn't being built by a company that currently has little or no current presence in OKC.


I sure hope its a  major outside company, can you just imagine how many people will be relocating to okc if that happens!!!

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## Just the facts

Maybe we should start with what we know:

http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-...rticle/3647036




> Beffort said another new corporate headquarters will be built downtown starting this year, but he didn't say what company.
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-...#ixzz1loC10EqV


From OKC-Central

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ine-will-grow/




> This also means we’re tracking a new building for SandRidge that will likely be 10 to 20 stories high, a convention center hotel that will be at least 15 stories high, and this mystery corporate headquarters


My questions is this - is the tower talked about by Beffort the same one being speculated on the Preftakes block?

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## Jesseda

A new headquarters could mean anything, a from local companies to out of state companies. wish it would have said if the company is currently located in okc, and is building a new HQ, or that its a outside company buildinga new HQ in okc. But at least we know for a fact we are gettinga new building in okc

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## Pete

> is the tower talked about by Beffort the same one being speculated on the Preftakes block?


From all indications, yes.

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## Skyline

Mr. Beffort states in his interview.... 


> He compared Oklahoma City to Austin, Texas, and Charlotte, N.C., which 30 years ago took steps Oklahoma City is only starting.
> 
> *They nursed local business.* Oklahoma City has two Fortune 500 companies in Devon Energy and Chesapeake Energy, he said; Austin has two in Dell Computer and Whole Foods, and Charlotte has seven, anchored by Bank of America  *and all are homegrown and committed to each city.*
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-...#ixzz1loDYvvxY


These statements make me think that it will not be an out of state relocation.

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## Jesseda

I think, my dear Watson, that you are on to something.

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## lasomeday

> Mr. Beffort states in his interview.... 
> 
> These statements make me think that it will not be an out of state relocation.


I still think the only logical choice is Midfirst Bank.  They used to be downtown, their corporate office is in the Chesapeake Empire target zone.  They have the capital to do it.

It would be nice to have a large bank downtown to diversify from oil and gas.

American Fidelity would be the second choice.  They are massive and could build a nice tower.  I don't know how much money they would have.  I know a company like that would benefit from having their name out more.  A tower would be a great way to do it.

As for ConocoPhillips and Sunoco.  They aren't moving.  Sunoco will be in northeast where its refineries are located, and ConocoPhillips won't be moving until they get the CEO out.  So any talks of them moving any jobs out of Houston and Bartlesville won't happen.  They should logically split the jobs out of Bartlesville for the new Phillips 66 company to Ponca City, but the CEO hates Ponca, so he is bound and determined to make that town go down.

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## lasomeday

> I still think the only logical choice is Midfirst Bank.  They used to be downtown, their corporate office is in the Chesapeake Empire target zone.  They have the capital to do it.
> 
> It would be nice to have a large bank downtown to diversify from oil and gas.
> 
> American Fidelity would be the second choice.  They are massive and could build a nice tower.  I don't know how much money they would have.  I know a company like that would benefit from having their name out more.  A tower would be a great way to do it.


Also, these two companies have not down any work on their corporate offices in the last 10-15 years.  They might be saving up for a move?

Midfirst has expanded throughout the city in former Wal-Marts and such and other odd locations.  They would benefit from a large tower to have everyone centrally located.

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## adaniel

> ConocoPhillips is separating it's pipeline/refinery business from it's exploration arm.
> 
> I can't imagine either moving away from Houston.
> 
> I know they have different units scattered around so perhaps one could be coming to OKC -- hopefully not at the expense of Bartlesville.


COP has actually increased their Bartlesville presence since the days of just Conoco and Phillips, largely at the expense of Ponca City. So I don't think its them. Plus, between that and Continental could you imagine the howling that would flare up at the state capitol of "big, bad OKC poaching our little towns"? 

In the spirit of wild speculation based off of questionable sources, I don't believe SandRidge is the new tenant for the mystery office building. But my uncle, who works for a large concrete company in town, indicated that SR wants to start on its building right away. At this point it is just waiting for Devon to be completely finished on its building to free up contractors.

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## Pete

I think you are right Skyline because Preftakes has been acquiring those properties for several years, which indicates this plan has been long in the making.

Also, Beffort's quote was "corporate headquarters", which is very different than just an employer like Boeing that is bringing in lots of jobs but still staying HQ'd in Seattle.


My guess this is either American Fidelity (who has expressed interest in downtown), MidFirst (in the path of CHK growth and bursting at the seams) or less likely, Continental.

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## Bellaboo

The CEO of AT&T is from Moore, OK. Does that mean anything ?

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## Pete

One other thing about MidFirst...

They have a built in buyer for their properties in Chesapeake.  As has been well documented, CHK has been buying every office building within a 5 mile radius of their campus and the two MidFirst buildings are actually surrounded by their holdings.  MF also owns a good chunk of acreage adjacent to one of their buildings.

The way CHK splashes around money, you can bet they would pay about $100 million for those properties -- maybe more.  That combined with a possible sweetheart deal on the Pretakes properties and downtown TIF money would go a long way towards a brand new 40-story building.


American Fidelity has lots of money too but would not be able to readily liquidate their properties on Classen.  That wouldn't necessarily stop them because they don't have a ton of money sunk in there, but they wouldn't be able to move with the nice chunk MidFirst would be getting.

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## UnFrSaKn

If it's a local company, it'll probably be pretty modest in size. Could be wrong.

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## Just the facts

> From all indications, yes.


If that is the case then this plan has been in place for a long time, which means we will most likely see ground breaking this year and not just an annoucement for a future building.

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## metro

> A new headquarters could mean anything, a from local companies to out of state companies. wish it would have said if the company is currently located in okc, and is building a new HQ, or that its a outside company buildinga new HQ in okc. But at least we know for a fact we are gettinga new building in okc


That's what I said on Steve's "blog", but I guess that was too controversial for him so he deleted it. While I doubt it is a small HQ, keep in mind a company like Sonic has a large presence, but a small HQ, just 4 stories. I doubt this is the case on this one, but could be the case, but I'd take it even if it is. 

As others stated, Midfirst is the likely candidate for the reasons stated, plus their is already speculative renderings we found and posted here (of course it could possibily have been another tenant). We also know Midfirst is busting at the seams and scattered throughout town. It just makes sense for them to centralize.

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## Steve

> Maybe we should start with what we know:
> 
> http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-...rticle/3647036
> 
> 
> 
> From OKC-Central
> 
> http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ine-will-grow/
> ...


I believe they are the same one, but with a caveat. Here's another thought to contemplate; what if, as we keep looking in the pond to figure out what fish is swimming around, teasing us but never stopping long enough for us to be sure of what we're seeing, and always darting through from unexpected locations so we're left totally bewildered ... what if there are two fish, and not just one? As an aside, I have not deleted any comments. But some comments, posters, do end up caught up in the spam filter.

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## G.Walker

I'm all in with my chips for CLR. It just makes sense. They already have a good relationship with Devon, they already stated they are tripling in size in the next few years, and they own the most real estate in the biggest oil play in the US via Bakken Shale. With that being said, growth of CLR will put them close to 1,000+ in the next 5 years or so. I am sure Devon had a big hand in convincing CLR to move to Oklahoma City and buying their old headquarters. So I wouldn't be surprised if Devon is helping them build corporate headquarters on the Preftakes block.

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## G.Walker

> I believe they are the same one, but with a caveat. Here's another thought to contemplate; what if, as we keep looking in the pond to figure out what fish is swimming around, teasing us but never stopping long enough for us to be sure of what we're seeing, and always darting through from unexpected locations so we're left totally bewildered ... what if there are two fish, and not just one? As an aside, I have not deleted any comments. But some comments, posters, do end up caught up in the spam filter.


Man, wouldn't it be something to have two major skyscrapers, CC Hotel, and Sandridge Tower all started around the same time? Talk about sea of cranes across downtown!

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## s00nr1

That would be phenomenal but I still believe the CC hotel needs to be at least 20 stories to make a significant impact on the downtown hotel market. I'm really hoping someone like Westin, Marriott, or Grand Hyatt will be the brand.

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## Pete

Another tidbit on Midland Mortgage is they recently had to place a bunch of people at Shepherd Mall of all places, which shows they are well out of space.

They really came out of the recent financial crisis in good shape and are extremely well positioned.  If they are already sending employees to Class C properties, you can imagine they are going to need lots more space in the near future.

They own the acreage immediately north of the MidFirst building and have done nothing with it despite needing the room to grow.  This is another hint they might not be staying in that area much longer.

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## s00nr1

Something like this would be my ultimate dream:

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## lasomeday

> I'm all in with my chips for CLR. It just makes sense. They already have a good relationship with Devon, they already stated they are tripling in size in the next few years, and they own the most real estate in the biggest oil play in the US via Bakken Shale. With that being said, growth of CLR will put them close to 1,000+ in the next 5 years or so. I am sure Devon had a big hand in convincing CLR to move to Oklahoma City and buying their old headquarters. So I wouldn't be surprised if Devon is helping them build corporate headquarters on the Preftakes block.


G, it is not CLR!  They are going to need more office space but it will be about 3-5 years from now.  They will be like Devon leasing in neighboring office buildings until then.  Then I see them building.  But not for at least 3 years not 2012.

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## lasomeday

> Another tidbit on Midland Mortgage is they recently had to place a bunch of people at Shepherd Mall of all places, which shows they are well out of space.
> 
> They really came out of the recent financial crisis in good shape and are extremely well positioned.  If they are already sending employees to Class C properties, you can imagine they are going to need lots more space in the near future.
> 
> They own the acreage immediately north of the MidFirst building and have done nothing with it despite needing the room to grow.  This is another hint they might not be staying in that area much longer.


From what I have heard that Shepard Mall office space is a huge disaster.  I could see them wanting to get out of that soon!

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## lasomeday

Something like this will be a great change!

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## UnFrSaKn

I wonder if Chesapeake would ever lure a HQ here with their new campus and move downtown someday in the future. They would really stand out more with a building rising up along with the others instead of away from downtown.

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## G.Walker

> G, it is not CLR!  They are going to need more office space but it will be about 3-5 years from now.  They will be like Devon leasing in neighboring office buildings until then.  Then I see them building.  But not for at least 3 years not 2012.


it will take 2 1/2 years just to build it, lol. Let's say just for pure speculation it is CLR, and it is announced this year, and its slated for the Preftakes block. And lets say its announced this Summer after Devon is completed. More than likely it would take Preftakes the remainder of 2012 for demolition of buildings on that block and site prep. So we would be looking at 2013 for actual construction starting, and then tack on another 2 1/2 for construction and move in, puts us close to 2016. 4 years from now, CLR would probably have outgrown their space, so why not start now?

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## Pete

If you are a growing company in the OKC suburbs, good luck finding any decent property to rent.  CHK has bought up everything in sight while at the same time pushing out existing tenants who all have to land somewhere.

Speculative building is still super-tough to get funded so I don't see this changing any time soon.

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## BG918

> ConocoPhillips is separating it's pipeline/refinery business from it's exploration arm.  I can't imagine either moving away from Houston.
> 
> I know they have different units scattered around so perhaps one could be coming to OKC -- hopefully not at the expense of Bartlesville.


They are planning a major campus in Louisville (suburb between Denver and Boulder) which many in the industry think could be the new exploration/R&D HQ while refining side (Phillips 66) will remain in Houston, or vice versa.  Bartlesville could be majorly impacted once they are settled in at their new Colorado HQ, or eliminated altogether.

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## Pete

I don't believe that Louisville, CO site will be any sort of HQ...  They are calling it their Global Technology and Corporate Learning Center and are only planning a maximum of 2.5 million square feet.  That's only slightly larger that what Devon is building.

I know they have lots of land there but it also sounds like they are struggling to get the community to even agree to the initial 1.6 million sq. ft.

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## G.Walker

Glad we are getting a new skyscraper, but its going to take a whole lot of money, and one hell of architect to top Devon Tower!

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## Just the facts

I just hope the new tower is not a glass monolith.

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## BoulderSooner

> I just hope the new tower is not a glass monolith.


i hope it is

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## Bellaboo

> I just hope the new tower is not a glass monolith.


I hope it is, with curves, angles and all kinds of lighting.

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## soonermike81

> Something like this will be a great change!


Barcelona?

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## catch22

If this is really being done by someone in close partnership (wrong term...) with Devon, then I will imagine it will compliment Devon tower. Not copy it, but compliment it. I think we are getting too far along in this discussion...we don't even know if they meant a 5 story new headquarters building or 65 story office tower....or anything in between. We know nothing except one new company will be announced this year and starting the process of building a new headquarters downtown. Could be anything and I think we are getting ahead of ourselves to already judge the appearance of this "building".

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## Just the facts

> i hope it is


Thank goodness it is up to the two of us - we would probaby never agree  :Smile:  .  I would just like to see more stonework and detail.

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## G.Walker

it will be a skyscraper, no question about that, too many hints/rumors refer to it as being a skyscraper, so sorry to bust your bubble. But the main question is who, when, and where will they be building it?

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## Oil Capital

> They are planning a major campus in Louisville (suburb between Denver and Boulder) which many in the industry think could be the new exploration/R&D HQ while refining side (Phillips 66) will remain in Houston, or vice versa.  Bartlesville could be majorly impacted once they are settled in at their new Colorado HQ, or eliminated altogether.


They have already announced that both companies will remain headquartered in Houston.  The Colorado deal is for renewable energy.

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## catch22

> it will be a skyscraper, no question about that, too many hints/rumors refer to it as being a skyscraper, so sorry to bust your bubble. But the main question is who, when, and where will they be building it?


I'm not saying it *won't* be a skyscraper, I believe it will be. But Beffort did not say skyscraper, he said headquarters which really could mean anything. Sorry to burst *your* bubble.

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## lasomeday

> Thank goodness it is up to the two of us - we would probaby never agree  .  I would just like to see more stonework and detail.


Stonework is so 1995.  I don't see that happening.  It will be glass with some steel supports.  The stone buildings of the 1990s past OKC.  I just hope the building isn't a blocklike structure and has some character.  I like diversity in the skyline.  It would be nice if they used a different architect than Devon just so it would have a different style.

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## lasomeday

> Barcelona?


Yep, it says it right there on the small building....

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## G.Walker

I hope the new skyscraper is all glass.

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## Just the facts

> I hope the new skyscraper is all glass.


You will probably get your wish.

Does anyone remember the proposed building that was presented here about 5 or 6 years ago?  The drawing was spotted at an OSU function and posted here.  At the time it was rumored to be the Devon Tower - which we now know it wasn't.  If I remember correctly it was 40 storeis.

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## Bellaboo

> Barcelona?


The water works building at that......

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## metro

> Glad we are getting a new skyscraper, but its going to take a whole lot of money, and one hell of architect to top Devon Tower!


 No one said they were trying to top Devon Tower, this isn't a grade school contest.

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## KayneMo

I wouldn't mind if it was to be all glass or not, but I would rather it be NOT glass.
Something like One Atlantic Center in Atlanta comes to mind:

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## lasomeday

> I wouldn't mind if it was to be all glass or not, but I would rather it be NOT glass.
> Something like One Atlantic Center in Atlanta comes to mind:


Yawn!  We already have a better version of that First National knock off.  I think modern and unique! Something to put us on the map like Devon Tower has done, but different.

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## LuccaBrasi

> One other thing about MidFirst...
> 
> They have a built in buyer for their properties in Chesapeake.  As has been well documented, CHK has been buying every office building within a 5 mile radius of their campus and the two MidFirst buildings are actually surrounded by their holdings.  MF also owns a good chunk of acreage adjacent to one of their buildings.
> 
> The way CHK splashes around money, you can bet they would pay about $100 million for those properties -- maybe more.  That combined with a possible sweetheart deal on the Pretakes properties and downtown TIF money would go a long way towards a brand new 40-story building.
> 
> 
> American Fidelity has lots of money too but would not be able to readily liquidate their properties on Classen.  That wouldn't necessarily stop them because they don't have a ton of money sunk in there, but they wouldn't be able to move with the nice chunk MidFirst would be getting.



If it is in fact a local company, this scenario seems to me to be the most logical by far.

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## Urban Pioneer

Caltrava's Turning Torso.  We need one.

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## swilki

My vote is for something that incorporates some sort of stone or marble. The Comerica or Chase buildings in Dallas are good examples of what I am talking about.

As far as a tennet/builder goes - I've got my money on MidFirst for the same reasons stated above. It's only a mater of time before they move downtown. 

 

or

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## G.Walker

> My vote is for something that incorporates some sort of stone or marble. The Comerica or Chase buildings in Dallas are good examples of what I am talking about.
> 
> As far as a tennet/builder goes - I've got my money on MidFirst for the same reasons stated above. It's only a mater of time before they move downtown. 
> 
>  
> 
> or


the last skyscraper is my fav in Dallas...

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## swilki

Me too G Walker. I have loved it since I was a kid. They also have it lit in blue lights at night...looks pretty slick.

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## Pete

It sees all the newer skyscrapers are almost 100% glass and steel.

If you look at Pickard Chilton's site, I didn't see one building with any other building material.

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## Just the facts

> It sees all the newer skyscrapers are almost 100% glass and steel.
> 
> If you look at Pickard Chilton's site, I didn't see one building with any other building material.


That is why I said glass has become the new EIFS - it's cost less and is easier to install.

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## Pete

I also think glass is the easiest material to maintain.

And it's become as energy efficient as anything else.

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## lasomeday

So, are we looking at 3 possible towers.  Stories and possible construction start dates?

Mystery Tower..... lets just call it Midfirst Bank Tower               35 stories (2012)
Convention Hotel Tower..... lets just call it Four Season Tower   30 stories (2013)
Sandridge Tower....AKA Sandridge Tower                                30 stories (2012)

Could there possibly be more???

Highrise Residential Tower? 30 stories (2013)
American Fidelity Tower?   40 stories  (2013)
Continental Resources Tower?  55 stores (2014)

Am I dillusional or is there a lot of concrete, glass, and steal that could be upon us?

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## Pete

I would also add that a speculative tower and a tower by a new-to-OKC business are not outside the realm of possibility.

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## Midtowner

Why not something like this?

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## lasomeday

Gross!

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## Thundercitizen

> Why not something like this?


New to OKC rather than new to earth.  :Smile:

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## Just the facts

> Why not something like this?


That is what is wrong with architecture today.  That building only makes sense if it is sitting by itself so it can be viewed all at once in its totality.  I am hoping for something that looks good viewed from 10 feet away - (ie - the sidewalk).

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## s00nr1

> Why not something like this?


This looks like something out of the movie "Inception"

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## BDP

Give me even money on MidFirst, 3-1 each on Continental and American Fidelity, 5-1 on the local field, and 10-1 on the national relocation field.

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## s00nr1

I will take the 3-1 on American Fidelity.

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## Bellaboo

> Give me even money on MidFirst, 3-1 each on Continental and American Fidelity, 5-1 on the local field, and 10-1 on the national relocation field.


King183, who seems to know something, said it will 'shock you' when the anouncement is made, that the 1,000 Boeing jobs would be small time. He could be talking about something besides MidFirst....could be 2 towers here.

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## lasomeday

> That is what is wrong with architecture today.  That building only makes sense if it is sitting by itself so it can be viewed all at once in its totality.  I am hoping for something that looks good viewed from 10 feet away - (ie - the sidewalk).


So, something like the Beekman Tower in NYC would be perfect?

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## skanaly

ART DECO!! that's all I have to say...what ever it is, I would love to see beautiful details. Also, in my opinion, downtown would look much better with a 720-780 ft tower. After that...let the giants be built!!

----------


## Popsy

Cemex

----------


## MDot

> Cemex


What do you mean?

----------


## s00nr1

I assume he is speculating that Cemex will be making some sort of corporate move to OKC.

----------


## MDot

> I assume he is speculating that Cemex will be making some sort of corporate move to OKC.


I recall not to long ago that a few people on here were speculating that a cement company from Mexico was going to relocate here.

----------


## G.Walker

> I assume he is speculating that Cemex will be making some sort of corporate move to OKC.


see post #586, rumors about Cemex started a year ago:

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23526&page=24

Well if it is Cemex, at least we know they can build skyscraper very cheap, since they are one of the largest building material suppliers in the world, lol.

----------


## MikeOKC

> I recall not to long ago that a few people on here were speculating that a cement company from Mexico was going to relocate here.


If CEMEX were to consolidate their operations and announce it would be Oklahoma City, that would be nothing short of a stunner. CEMEX is huge - as in 46,000+ employees worldwide huge.

Interesting: "This is a world-class company; there certainly aren't many based in Latin America," says Stanford Business School professor John Roberts, who has studied Cemex.

The third largest building materials company in the world.

I'm curious as to why CEMEX was thrown out in this thread. Has it ever been discussed here? Where's the connection? That would be incredible.

----------


## MikeOKC

> see post #586, rumors about Cemex started a year ago:
> 
> http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23526&page=24
> 
> Well if it is Cemex, at least we know they can build skyscraper very cheap, since they are one of the largest building material suppliers in the world, lol.


Thanks, G. Walker...here's the post on March 25, 2011:




> Please take this with a grain of salt, but a few weeks ago I was talking with a co-worker about how downtown was on the up and up. Her husband works for Devon and she was talking about Continental Resources moving downtown (this was before it was officially announced the other day) and she mentioned CEMEX was moving to OKC. This is an international company based out of Mexico. She may honestly have had no idea what she was talking about, but she was right about Continental (which most already assumed) and I just found it odd that she mentioned this specific international company....


*Here's the website for the international headquarters of CEMEX.*

----------


## Just the facts

> So, something like the Beekman Tower in NYC would be perfect?


That is a Thunder Moneyball

----------


## Skyline

This thread has exploded today in less than 12 hours since created. Look at the number of views and replies!

----------


## Pete

Shows you how much interest there is in downtown.

Lots more people on the site the last several days as well.

----------


## metro

> So, are we looking at 3 possible towers.  Stories and possible construction start dates?
> 
> Mystery Tower..... lets just call it Midfirst Bank Tower               35 stories (2012)
> Convention Hotel Tower..... lets just call it Four Season Tower   30 stories (2013)
> Sandridge Tower....AKA Sandridge Tower                                30 stories (2012)
> 
> Could there possibly be more???
> 
> Highrise Residential Tower? 30 stories (2013)
> ...


Dilusional. I still don't see why people think Amercan Fidelity can build a monster tower. They do t have that many employees on Classen, maybe 500 tops. They don't even occupy most of the third building they do have, if you were to stack all 3 on top of each other, you'd only have a 15 story building, and not much girth at that, as far as mid rises are concerned.

I honestly see them building a Sonic type of HQ only slightly larger, in the C2S area.

----------


## Pete

I'm not saying this new tower is for them but American Fidelity currently occupies four buildings:  1 10-story, 2 seven-story, and 1 2-story.

The three biggest buildings all have full basements as well, so that's a total of 29 levels.

----------


## metro

Pete, ok, I could be wrong on my levels on the Classen buildings, but I'm pretty sure they don't occupy much if any of the 3rd building, as they have a for lease sign out front and have for some time. So subtract the northern most building on Classen.

----------


## redrunner

> The way CHK splashes around money, you can bet they would pay about $100 million for those properties -- maybe more.  That combined with a possible sweetheart deal on the Pretakes properties and downtown TIF money would go a long way towards a brand new 40-story building.


Exactly what I was thinking.

----------


## Pete

Just FYI, the Chamber updated it's numbers in October '11 and lists Devon with 2,600 employees, MidFirst with 1,150 and American Fidelity with 1,000.

Devon is building 1.8 million square feet (don't forget the massive Garden Wing), which equates to almost 700 per employee.

If you take 700 and multiply by 1,000 employees that is 700,000 square feet.  Assuming about 20,000 square feet per floor (Devon is more like 26,000 but is unusually thick), that's a about 35 floors.

Another comparison is that Oklahoma Tower is 31 floors and 610,000 square feet.  It's floor plates are just under 20,000 square feet each.

----------


## SWOkie66

I live in rural SW Oklahoma, but used to have ambitions of being an architect.  That didn't pan out for me, but I drew pictures of and built cardboard models of a couple of buildings.  One of them had a slanted roof and looked much like the Citibank building in New York.  The other was much like the Chase Building in OKC, but was square and had a rotating dome on top, which was a restaurant.  I wish I still had the drawings, they're well over 25 years old by now, so the designs are well outdated by now, but I thought they would really stand out in the current OKC skyline.  

I'm still fascinated by construction and high-rise buildings, so I've been following the Devon Tower thread and related topics.  I've enjoyed reading everyone's input and I'm excited to see what future construction is done in OKC.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Just FYI, the Chamber updated it's numbers in October '11 and lists Devon with 2,600 employees, MidFirst with 1,150 and American Fidelity with 1,000.
> 
> Devon is building 1.8 million square feet (don't forget the massive Garden Wing), which equates to almost 700 per employee.
> 
> If you take 700 and multiply by 1,000 employees that is 700,000 square feet.  Assuming about 20,000 square feet per floor (Devon is more like 26,000 but is unusually thick), that's a about 35 floors.


But I believe Devon built to accommodate a lot of fast-paced future growth. Does American Fidelity expect to grow by any significant amount?

----------


## Pete

I don't know how fast AF or MidFirst are growing, but I'm sure they plan to expand as they always have.


And also keep in mind that Devon placed a huge data center and storage facility over by the airport (another 150,000 square feet), which is why they ended up reducing the size of their entire complex.

----------


## Richard at Remax

Something like this would be awesome. Biased cause it's my favorite building out there. 

Westend Strasse 1 (208 M) in Frankfurt, Germany

----------


## MikeOKC

I've been investigating this CEMEX thing ever since my last post. It's interesting in that some business observers are surprised they're still in Mexico due to various import/export laws. But it looks like they have a pretty nice corporate office, they also have a CEMEXUSA subsidiary in Houston and various offices all over the world. *They're a Fortune Global 500 company.* Here's some pix of their current world headquarters in Monterey...







Okay, that's all. Hope this rumor turns out to be true.

----------


## Just the facts

> Something like this would be awesome. Biased cause it's my favorite building out there.


What about this - Mellon Bank Center in Philadelphia.

----------


## G.Walker

Hopefully Steve will break the story in the next few months, this will be exciting. Never thought OKC would get two major skyscrapers back to back, many researchers stated OKC wouldn't see another significant skyscraper for at least another 10-15 years, guess we proved them wrong.

----------


## dankrutka

> Hopefully Steve will break the story in the next few months, this will be exciting. Never thought OKC would get two major skyscrapers back to back, many researchers stated OKC wouldn't see another significant skyscraper for at least another 10-15 years, guess we proved them wrong.


Haven't skyscrapers in OKC almost always come in spurts?

----------


## G.Walker

The Frost Bank Tower in Austin is in my top 5, but I don't think something like this would fit in architecturally in the OKC skyline:


The Frost Bank Tower by Paul Lowry, on Flickr

----------


## ctchandler

lasomeday,
Reminds me of the London building commonly referred to as the "Gherkin" (as in the pickle).  
C. T.



> Something like this will be a great change!

----------


## lasomeday

> That is a Thunder Moneyball


Ugh, That is the Beekman Hotel not Beekman Tower.  This is the Beekman Tower.  They built a skyscraper ontop existing 4 story buildings and utilized the bottom floors for a school and retail.

----------


## redrunner

If only we could have the cancelled Signature Tower that was proposed for Nashville.

----------


## G.Walker

Frost Bank Tower @ night:



Frost Bank Tower at Night by Matt Pippen, on Flickr

----------


## Bellaboo

> Dilusional. I still don't see why people think Amercan Fidelity can build a monster tower. They do t have that many employees on Classen, maybe 500 tops. They don't even occupy most of the third building they do have, if you were to stack all 3 on top of each other, you'd only have a 15 story building, and not much girth at that, as far as mid rises are concerned.
> 
> I honestly see them building a Sonic type of HQ only slightly larger, in the C2S area.


I thought the AMF buildings were 8 floors each  ?   3 X 8  =  24...?

----------


## Questor

The Barcelona building also reminds me of the London "Gherkin."  I like the London building a bit better because of its wacky spiral pattern on its glass:

----------


## Questor

Someone mentioned that maybe the new HQ would be a Fortune 100 company, so here is a list of Fortune 100 companies to review and speculate over:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...011/full_list/

----------


## Just the facts

Do you think Wal-Mart could ever be in play - #1 on th list?

How about RiteAid - #100 on the list?

----------


## MDot

> Do you think Wal-Mart could ever be in play?


Wal-Mart is always in play in Oklahoma.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Don't make them like they used to. A shame.



(hundred years old next year...)

----------


## OKC@heart

> Because I am unsure of how gaurded this information is, and I would not want to violate the trust of someone close to me.  And for the record, the company I was refering to probably falls in that 75% that is completely implausible, the point that I was trying to make is that there are some VERY ambitious efforts being made to bring companies to OKC and it would be interesting if this mystery tower wasn't being built by a company that currently has little or no current presence in OKC.


I think that most may have missed what it was that CurtisJ was insinuating.  That someone like Devon or Chesepeake might be trying to lure corporations here to the City, and one way to do so is to mitigate some of the risk associated with making a move and building a new class A structure worthy of the company.  So, in steps a cash laden booster who then funds the building and construction and then leases the space back to the incoming company, with an arangement for them to buy at a specific time in the near future after the dust settles.  It would be beneficial to the sponsoring party as well as the new corporation.  It could also be quite large providing space for several major tenants.  

I think it is also interesting to apply that logic to the other speculation that has been floating about Chesepeake building a skyscraper which in and of itself does not make much sense considering their campus and masterplan just north of the CBD.  But if you cast in this light the two rumors just may both be true, and one and the same.  Which to me seems the most likely.  Although the actions seem more like something that I could see Devon orchestrating.  It will be no doubt interesting to see unfold!  Go Oklahoma City!

----------


## Questor

When I think of really cool modern looking buildings that I would love to see emulated here, I think of some of the condo developments that they have in Vancouver.  Unfortunately I couldn't tell you what they are called but maybe one of the architecture aficionados here will understand the gist and post a picture.  They are glass with a partial external structure I think.  I don't know how to describe them other than to say modern but tasteful.  Maybe something sort of in that style but adopted for business.

----------


## UnFrSaKn



----------


## Pete

> someone like Devon or Chesepeake might be trying to lure corporations here to the City, and one way to do so is to mitigate some of the risk associated with making a move and building a new class A structure worthy of the company. So, in steps a cash laden booster


Both those companies are publicly traded and there is a big difference in spending lots of money to keep your employees happy and to fuel your growth and spending half a billion dollars to build a skyscraper for someone else.

Also, CHK cannot be described as cash laden.


I think the big efforts being made are by the Chamber with guys like Nichols & McClendon helping recruit.  Other big initiatives come from various incentive programs for relocating/expanding companies and also a new push to reduce state income tax.

----------


## Beastboii

Well a couple weeks ago my brother (who works for chesapeke)told me that that there is a big oil company that is looking to build its headquarter here, I wish I would've paid attention  to the name!

----------


## shawnw

Who knows how this will all turn out, but I think it's reasonably safe to say that if Cemex does come to OKC, we will NOT have another glass and steel structure.

----------


## Pete

BTW, I think it's great that the Chamber, business leaders and now even the governor are all working hard to bring new businesses in and to help the existing ones grow.

I started a thread about a year ago saying I could feel a corner being turned in OKC and I really do think that has happened in lots of ways.  I've also said I thought OKC could be the next Charlotte or Austin and I stand by that.  I don't think there is a city that is better positioned to make the jump from 10-15% growth each decade to the 20%+ club.  I think Albuquerque is the other town that is really ready to take off.

I think the biggest change is just that there are lots of progressive thinkers and plenty of people looking well into the future.  I also think the average citizen is excited about the growth and change and is obviously willing to keep investing in the community through initiatives like MAPS.  This is more rare than you may think, as most cities have a complicated relationship with growth and change, while at every turn it's full speed ahead in OKC.

----------


## UncleCyrus

> Something like this would be awesome. Biased cause it's my favorite building out there. 
> 
> Westend Strasse 1 (208 M) in Frankfurt, Germany


Have you also seen the Capella Tower in Minneapolis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capella_Tower

----------


## redrunner

Once the tower announcement is made it will definitely put another dagger in Tulsa's ego.

----------


## UncleCyrus

I have always been fond of the Pei-designed Fountain Place in Dallas.  Of course mentioning the Pei name could start a whole 'nother heated discussion in these parts!

----------


## ZYX2

> Once the tower announcement is made it will definitely put another dagger in Tulsa's ego.


Sigh. I sit here and read about all the exciting things going on in OKC, of which I am proud of, and then I read this.

There is definitely something unfolding down there, it will be exciting to watch in the near future.

----------


## Just the facts

> Well a couple weeks ago my brother (who works for chesapeke)told me that that there is a big oil company that is looking to build its headquarter here, I wish I would've paid attention  to the name!


Do you have your brother's phone number?  If so, call him and ask.  Post the answer here.

----------


## Pete

The brother could have been talking about Continental.

----------


## dankrutka

> Once the tower announcement is made it will definitely put another dagger in Tulsa's ego.


Dumb.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

> Well a couple weeks ago my brother (who works for chesapeke)told me that that there is a big oil company that is looking to build its headquarter here, I wish I would've paid attention  to the name!


Call your brother, IMO.

----------


## redrunner

> Dumb.


How long have you lived in Tulsa?

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

Why hate on Tulsa? It's a great city. And they don't have to fail for us to succeed.

----------


## redrunner

It's not a slam on Tulsa, I'm just pointing out a well known belief that they see OKC as inferior and with OKC progressing while they're not doesn't do good for their ego.

----------


## skanaly

How about something like this? The black part would be detailed black marble, and the blue is glass of course. Also, on the round marble part, there would be glass square windows. -780 ft, 40fls
[IMG][/IMG]

----------


## Beastboii

> The brother could have been talking about Continental.


That sounds right but I'll hit him up sometime and ask

----------


## Beastboii

> How about something like this? The black part would be detailed black marble, and the blue is glass of course. Also, on the round marble part, there would be glass square windows. -780 ft, 40fls
> [IMG][/IMG]


I thought of that too but with a little rock at the bottom, would look pretty cool downtown

----------


## soonermike81

> That sounds right but I'll hit him up sometime and ask


dude, shoot him a quick text if you don't feel like bugging him with a phone call.  i am also intrigued by the possibilities!

----------


## metro

> Hopefully Steve will break the story in the next few months, this will be exciting. Never thought OKC would get two major skyscrapers back to back, many researchers stated OKC wouldn't see another significant skyscraper for at least another 10-15 years, guess we proved them wrong.


And what researchers said this? Please give examples. History shows skyscraper construction usually comes on heels of another.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> BTW, I think it's great that the Chamber, business leaders and now even the governor are all working hard to bring new businesses in and to help the existing ones grow.
> 
> I started a thread about a year ago saying I could feel a corner being turned in OKC and I really do think that has happened in lots of ways.  I've also said I thought OKC could be the next Charlotte or Austin and I stand by that.  I don't think there is a city that is better positioned to make the jump from 10-15% growth each decade to the 20%+ club.  I think Albuquerque is the other town that is really ready to take off.
> 
> I think the biggest change is just that there are lots of progressive thinkers and plenty of people looking well into the future.  I also think the average citizen is excited about the growth and change and is obviously willing to keep investing in the community through initiatives like MAPS.  This is more rare than you may think, as most cities have a complicated relationship with growth and change, while at every turn it's full speed ahead in OKC.


Very well said!  I work with businesses everyday and the excitement is wide spread.  In fact we have leaders from other progresssive communities that visit OKC to benchmark because we are known as a city that is willing to invest in itself.  They all want to know how we do it!

----------


## ZYX2

> It's not a slam on Tulsa, I'm just pointing out a well known belief that they see OKC as inferior and with OKC progressing while they're not doesn't do good for their ego.


Um...never mind. Don't want to start that on this thread.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I think the biggest change is just that there are lots of progressive thinkers and plenty of people looking well into the future. I also think the average citizen is excited about the growth and change and is obviously willing to keep investing in the community through initiatives like MAPS. This is more rare than you may think, as most cities have a complicated relationship with growth and change, while at every turn it's full speed ahead in OKC.


There's ample evidence of solid citizenry support for improving OKC and attracting jobs to the local landscape. 
The PR impact of the NBA cannot be overestimated either.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

768 ft.  Perfect.

----------


## ZYX2

^^
Disgusting

----------


## metro

Pete, I'd have to disagree about ABQ. That town is dead. Yes, they have landed some major tech companies (I think due to their proximity to the west coast more than anything).  My recently former employer, a nationwide retailer, opened an ABQ store a few months back.  I warned against it looking at the marketing numbers, they didn't make sense. The store isn't doing that well, and after visiting the town and meeting with key influencers, Chamber, business leaders, etc. also their business laws make it impossible to open a business there, and permits are hard to get and help to get set up is lacking. They also tax you for services AND for your inventory unlike most states. very business unfriendly. It is a night and day difference compared to OKC. I drove the whole city multiple times and saw ZERO new construction of any kind, not even a house or fast food restaurant, unlike all the major construction we are seeing all over the metro here. The biggest thing there Chamber peeps were touting was Chipotle was going to open a store their soon. Whoa Chipotle..... What a big development......not!  Most businesses are dead or dying out there, the place is dirty, and most people I talked to are broke.  On the plus side they have a MUCH better airport and public transportation system.

----------


## MDot

> And what researchers said this? Please give examples. History shows skyscraper construction usually comes on heels of another.


I'm not sure which honest researchers believe that it would take us 10-15 years for another significant skyscraper but I've heard a lot of average Joe's state that Devon would be the only skyscraper built for the next 25+ years but those people are also the ones that think Oklahoma City is still an inferior dust bowl town with a population of 250 and we still have cowboy and indian fights on our downtown dirt road, those people are also known as "haters".

----------


## dankrutka

Haters gonna hate.

----------


## Bellaboo

Story in the paper the other day about Plains All American Pipeline, putting huge investment in the Mississippi Lime play. They are in the fortune 100, maybe it's them  ???

----------


## G.Walker

> And what researchers said this? Please give examples. History shows skyscraper construction usually comes on heels of another.


metro, I was referring to the ULI C2S report http://www.okc.gov/resources/ulifinal.pdf presented to the Oklahoma City Council back in March of 2010, *pg. 16, under Market Potential*. They emphasized that since Devon will be vacating a lot of space, downtown Oklahoma City should not expect any speculative office towers in the future. However, they did emphasize that a corporation could locate downtown and build its own tower, so they didn't rule that out. I was basing my statement on that section of the report. Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but it had been 2 years since I actually read the report, so I had a misunderstanding.

----------


## Bellaboo

> metro, I was referring to the ULI C2S report http://www.okc.gov/resources/ulifinal.pdf presented to the Oklahoma City Council back in March of 2010, *pg. 16, under Market Potential*. They emphasized that since Devon will be vacating a lot of space, downtown Oklahoma City should not expect any speculative office towers in the future. However, they did emphasize that a corporation could locate downtown and build its own tower, so they didn't rule that out. I was basing my statement on that section of the report. Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but it had been 2 years since I actually read the report, so I had a misunderstanding.


If I'd had read that, i'd have taken it the same way you did G.

----------


## lasomeday

> Story in the paper the other day about Plains All American Pipeline, putting huge investment in the Mississippi Lime play. They are in the fortune 100, maybe it's them  ???


Plains is in Houston.  No oil company from Houston is going to move to OKC.  They have a field office off of Broadway Ext.  That is all we can get from them.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Pete, I'd have to disagree about ABQ. That town is dead. Yes, they have landed some major tech companies (I think due to their proximity to the west coast more than anything).  My recently former employer, a nationwide retailer, opened an ABQ store a few months back.  I warned against it looking at the marketing numbers, they didn't make sense. The store isn't doing that well, and after visiting the town and meeting with key influencers, Chamber, business leaders, etc. also their business laws make it impossible to open a business there, and permits are hard to get and help to get set up is lacking. They also tax you for services AND for your inventory unlike most states. very business unfriendly. It is a night and day difference compared to OKC. I drove the whole city multiple times and saw ZERO new construction of any kind, not even a house or fast food restaurant, unlike all the major construction we are seeing all over the metro here. The biggest thing there Chamber peeps were touting was Chipotle was going to open a store their soon. Whoa Chipotle..... What a big development......not!  Most businesses are dead or dying out there, the place is dirty, and most people I talked to are broke.  On the plus side they have a MUCH better airport and public transportation system.


Agreed.  I was wondering about that when I read Pete's post too.

----------


## lasomeday

> Story in the paper the other day about Plains All American Pipeline, putting huge investment in the Mississippi Lime play. They are in the fortune 100, maybe it's them  ???


Mewbourne Oil in Tyler, TX could be one that could move.  Its founder is an OU graduate with the the University of Oklahoma named the Mewbourne School of Petroleum and Geological Engineering in his honor in May of 2000.

That would be an awesome addition to OKC!

Also, there are a few in New Mexico or Wichita, KS that could move to OKC.

----------


## skanaly

I talked with a man that is with continetal resources, and according to him, he knows nothing about them moving downtown...he could be keeping a secret, but we can probably scratch them off the list.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I talked with a man that is with continetal resources, and according to him, he knows nothing about them moving downtown...he could be keeping a secret, but we can probably scratch them off the list.


they already bought devon's building and are moving in this year

----------


## Pete

I mentioned Albuquerque because it has been showing up on more and more best-places-to-live lists, and from 2000-10 it's MSA grew by almost 25% (OKC only grew 14% in that same period).  It will soon pass Tulsa (probably already has) and a bunch of other cities above it.

I have friends that live there and love it...  Tons of recreation / bike paths and mountains are very nearby, nice climate and low cost of living.  Also lots of green, progressive initiatives.

If I were to relocate, it would be on my short list of places to consider.

----------


## Oil Capital

> they already bought devon's building and are moving in this year


LOL. Apparently, that guy hasn't gotten the memo.

----------


## G.Walker

Skyscraper development doesn't come easy to Tier 3 cities like OKC. So we are in a very fortunate position even just to have Devon Tower, let alone another significant skyscraper in the near future. Larger cities like Memphis, Louisville, Richmond, New Orleans, Jacksonville, and Kansas City, haven't seen a significant skyscraper built in decades. So we are in a great position to separate ourselves in skyscraper development from these cities, if we can keep the momentum. 

But young and upcoming cities like Austin, Salt Lake City, and Charlotte...I don't see us gaining any ground, I see no end in site for these cities.

My dark horse is Nashville though, they have a lot of good things going on for them right now. Omaha is gaining momentum to, I wouldn't be surprised if they get a significant skyscraper in a few years.

----------


## skanaly

I obviously didn't..i apologize.
Is there enough room for one to built directly north of the Skirvin. It's kind of wasted space with just a garage

----------


## dmoor82

650'FT-750'FT is the height range I've been hearing for over 8 Months.With all these jobs moving into downtown,and with Class A office space at a premium,there might be two skyscrapers going up at the same time.

----------


## Pete

> Larger cities like Memphis, Louisville, Richmond, New Orleans, Jacksonville, and Kansas City, haven't seen a significant skyscraper built in decades.


Neither has Dallas!  All of their 25 tallest buildings were built before 1987...  A quarter of a decade!

In the U.S. anyway, there have been very few tall buildings built outside of a few cities since the 80's.

----------


## lasomeday

> 650'FT-750'FT is the height range I've been hearing for over 8 Months.With all these jobs moving into downtown,and with Class A office space at a premium,there might be two skyscrapers going up at the same time.


Yeah, I was hoping Preftakes was going to build a residential skyscraper in the 400-600' range.  That location near the new school would be a great place to build one.  Maybe he is looking at two skyscrapers in his block.  I wish they would build a residential tower where the Century Center Parking garage is.  That place is perfect so close to the Myriad Gardens.  Kind of something like Aqua in Chicago that is near one of their parks.

----------


## metro

> I mentioned Albuquerque because it has been showing up on more and more best-places-to-live lists, and from 2000-10 it's MSA grew by almost 25% (OKC only grew 14% in that same period).  It will soon pass Tulsa (probably already has) and a bunch of other cities above it.
> 
> I have friends that live there and love it...  Tons of recreation / bike paths and mountains are very nearby, nice climate and low cost of living.  Also lots of green, progressive initiatives.
> 
> If I were to relocate, it would be on my short list of places to consider.


I agree about the recreation and forward progress on green initiatives, but the business climate sucks and is dead.

----------


## Just the facts

> I obviously didn't..i apologize.
> Is there enough room for one to built directly north of the Skirvin. It's kind of wasted space with just a garage


The Skirvin had proposed a 30 story addition on that site if the North Bricktown Lot had been choosen as the convention center location - so yes, there is enough room but it would probably have to be residential/hotel.  It probbaly doesn't have enough room for offices.

----------


## G.Walker

> Neither has Dallas!  All of their 25 tallest buildings were built before 1987...  A quarter of a decade!
> 
> In the U.S. anyway, there have been very few tall buildings built outside of a few cities since the 80's.


However, they are finishing up construction on Museum Tower which is around 560' if I'm not mistaken.

----------


## G.Walker

> In the U.S. anyway, there have been very few tall buildings built outside of a few cities since the 80's.


What is the reason behind lagging skyscraper development since the 80's?

----------


## Pete

Commercial real estate is notorious for boom and bust.

The 80's were a big boom cycle that resulted in a glut of office space which took a long time to absorb.  Then, the recession and banking crisis hit and things really died.

----------


## Just the facts

> What is the reason behind lagging skyscraper development since the 80's?


Despite news to the contrary, the 1980's were very good economic years and was probably the peak of high rise construction in the US.  It also depends on the City, I worked in Atlanta from 2006 to 2010 and on any give day I could count no less the 40 cranes on the skyline.  Of course, the Olympics really helped Atlanta (that and Hartsfield Airport).

----------


## Bellaboo

> Despite news to the contrary, the 1980's were very good economic years and was probably the peak of high rise construction in the US.  It also depends on the City, I worked in Atlanta from 2006 to 2010 and on any give day I could count no less the 40 cranes on the skyline.  Of course, the Olympics really helped Atlanta (that and Hartsfield Airport).


I think that a lot of the tech expansion around 2000 came in the form of warehouse/factory type facilities being built. Lot of low rise offices.

----------


## G.Walker

Could Oklahoma City be behind the times, even with significant skyscrapers going up? Is OKC just now experiencing that 80's boom it missed out on? The reason why I make this plausible claim is that it seems that recent/proposed high-rise/skyscraper development in the US is for mostly housing/condos and not office. And that more corporations are shifting to the more campus style development? So did Chesapeake foster the right idea, or Devon?

----------


## metro

Another one of G walkers conspiracy theories.

----------


## Bellaboo

Devons reason for consolidation into one office is efficencies of being together as one unit, not sure about CHK.

----------


## Just the facts

> Could Oklahoma City behind the times, even with significant skyscrapers going up? The reason why I make this plausible claim is that it seems that most high-rise/skyscraper development in the US is for mostly housing/condos and not office. And that more corporations are shifting to the more campus style development? So did Chesapeake adopt the right idea, or Devon?


1) OKC missed out on the high-rise housing boom by 100%.
2) Corporate campuses are nearly a total failure.  Many campuses have numerous building that sit empty and the employees I know that work in them hate them.  It was an attempt by tech companies to recreate the college campus because for many of the people in charge of these companies 'college life' was all they knew.  Places like Microsfot, Cisco, etc - they are stuck in them now.  They can't sell them, rent out the space, or anything.  Chesapeake is at full employment so they fill up their campus but let them lay off 500 and see what happens to their campus.  Even companies like Amazon dropped the suburban campus and moved into high rise buildings.

----------


## G.Walker

Good response, thanks...

----------


## G.Walker

A look back in history, can help you see the future. Anyone remember this article by Steve, about a year ago? 

http://newsok.com/economic-developme...rticle/3535769

First Paragraph:
_
Following the successful recruitment of Whole Foods and 550 Boeing jobs, executives with the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber say they're in the hunt for a North American headquarters for a “large international company” and also are in talks with two grocery stores looking to open locations downtown.
_

----------


## MDot

> A look back in history, can help you see the future. Anyone remember this article by Steve, about a year ago? 
> 
> http://newsok.com/economic-developme...rticle/3535769
> 
> First Paragraph:
> _
> Following the successful recruitment of Whole Foods and 550 Boeing jobs, executives with the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber say they're in the hunt for a North American headquarters for a “large international company” and also are in talks with two grocery stores looking to open locations downtown.
> _


I don't mean to keep this going but CEMEX doesn't sound quite as crazy as it first did.

----------


## G.Walker

Cemex expected to move out of corporate tower in Houston by this month!

http://www.chron.com/business/sarnof...me-2277485.php

----------


## Pete

Remember that OKC built 5 of our tallest 15 buildings in the 80's:  Oklahoma Tower, Leadership Square, Valliance Bank Tower, Mid-America (Devon) and Union Bank.

----------


## Oil Capital

> 1) OKC missed out on the high-rise housing boom by 100%.
> 2) Corporate campuses are nearly a total failure.  Many campuses have numerous building that sit empty and the employees I know that work in them hate them.  It was an attempt by tech companies to recreate the college campus because for many of the people in charge of these companies 'college life' was all they knew.  Places like Microsfot, Cisco, etc - they are stuck in them now.  They can't sell them, rent out the space, or anything.  Chesapeake is at full employment so they fill up their campus but let them lay off 500 and see what happens to their campus.  Even companies like Amazon dropped the suburban campus and moved into high rise buildings.


1.  Most cities "missed out" on the high-rise housing boom.  Many that did not miss out might wish they had.

2.  There is no evidence I am aware of that corporate campuses are a total failure.  If they were, companies would not still be building them.

Amazon?   From an April 2010 news article:  "It's the beginning of a new era for Amazon.com. The first Amazon employees began moving into the company's new headquarters campus in Seattle's South Lake Union neighborhood this week. The move will take place over stages until 2013, with the online retail giant eventually occupying a dozen buildings totaling nearly 2 million square feet of office space."   They moved from scattered sites around the Seattle area to a corporate campus.  It's an urban corporate campus (although not downtown, but nevertheless a corporate campus.  Not a single building.  And I believe the tallest building is no taller than 12 stories.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Cemex expected to move out of corporate tower in Houston by this month!
> 
> http://www.chron.com/business/sarnof...me-2277485.php


Uh, yeah.  And into another building just down the block.

----------


## G.Walker

> Uh, yeah.  And into another building just down the block.


however, maybe its just tempory, until they finalize everything up here, and they didn't want to resign major lease?

----------


## BoulderSooner

cemex lost a lot of money the last few Q

----------


## G.Walker

> cemex lost a lot of money the last few Q


which gives them even more reason to come here, with our incentives and low cost of doing business. It might be cost effective for them in the long run to consolidate offices, and start headquarters in OKC.

----------


## Swake2

> 1.  Most cities "missed out" on the high-rise housing boom.  Many that did not miss out might wish they had.
> 
> 2.  There is no evidence I am aware of that corporate campuses are a total failure.  If they were, companies would not still be building them.
> 
> Amazon?   From an April 2010 news article:  "It's the beginning of a new era for Amazon.com. The first Amazon employees began moving into the company's new headquarters campus in Seattle's South Lake Union neighborhood this week. The move will take place over stages until 2013, with the online retail giant eventually occupying a dozen buildings totaling nearly 2 million square feet of office space."   They moved from scattered sites around the Seattle area to a corporate campus.  It's an urban corporate campus (although not downtown, but nevertheless a corporate campus.  Not a single building.  And I believe the tallest building is no taller than 12 stories.


Yeah,

Check this one out. Apple’s new 4 story, 2.8 million square foot headquarters in Cupertino. It will hold 13,000 employees. Due to be completed in 2015. 
http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/13/app...-headquarters/






campuses are far from dead. Steve Jobs called this the office building of the future.

----------


## OklahomaNick

Why can't we just build a replica of the "Death Star?"

----------


## Bellaboo

> Why can't we just build a replica of the "Death Star?"


That'd fit right there on boathouse row !

----------


## Oil Capital

> Plains is in Houston.  No oil company from Houston is going to move to OKC.  They have a field office off of Broadway Ext.  That is all we can get from them.


and they just entered into a new, expanded, long-term lease for the HQ in downtown Houston.

----------


## CurtisJ

> Story in the paper the other day about Plains All American Pipeline, putting huge investment in the Mississippi Lime play. They are in the fortune 100, maybe it's them  ???


As I was the first person to bring up the idea of a fortune 100 company I feel like I need to clarify something.  What I said was I knew of a (probably unrealistic) effort, by a CEO of one of our larger metro corporations, to bring in a certain fortune 100 company to headquarters in OKC.  It stands to reason then that other large (not necessarily fortune 100, but possibly) companies have also been contacted by this CEO, with the same premise in mind.

My the intention behind my comment was to put into scope the ambition of some of the bigwigs in oklahoma to bring in new companies, I did not (at least not intentionally) imply that there IS a fortune 100 company moving there HQ to OKC.

----------


## Oil Capital

> however, maybe its just tempory, until they finalize everything up here, and they didn't want to resign major lease?


Even if that made some sense, it's not the case.  They are under lease with the same landlord, different building.  They were not under any pressure to resign any major lease.

----------


## G.Walker

> As I was the first person to bring up the idea of a fortune 100 company I feel like I need to clarify something.  What I said was I knew of a (probably unrealistic) effort, by a CEO of one of our larger metro corporations, to bring in a certain fortune 100 company to headquarters in OKC.  It stands to reason then that other large (not necessarily fortune 100, but possibly) companies have also been contacted by this CEO, with the same premise in mind.
> 
> My the intention behind my comment was to put into scope the ambition of some of the bigwigs in oklahoma to bring in new companies, I did not (at least not intentionally) imply that there IS a fortune 100 company moving there HQ to OKC.


huh?  :Whiteflag1:

----------


## BDP

> Steve Jobs called this the office building of the future.


Well, we know he could design tech products, but I would hate to work in a building like that. And can you image suburbia filled with those things? It may have some aesthetic advantages over some suburban offices and campuses, but it still looks like it has all the downside or sprawl and inefficiency.

----------


## MikeOKC

> Even if that made some sense, it's not the case.  They are under lease with the same landlord, different building.  They were not under any pressure to resign any major lease.


CEMEX-USA is what's in Houston, CEMEX's world headquarters is in Mexico in Monterrey. I did quite a lot of research yesterday regarding CEMEX and it's very interesting. There are apparently some Mexican laws hampering their growth, many business observers are surprised they're still in Mexico, etc. 

Remember, we're speculating on two tracks here. A large "Fortune 100" firm that a CEO has been lobbying *and* a "large international company" that a chamber representative mentioned. CEMEX, by the way, is a Fortune GLOBAL 500 company.

At any rate, a consolidation of CEMEX corporate offices would be off-the-radar huge.

Here's my earlier post about CEMEX with pix of their current offices in Monterrey:
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...080#post507080

----------


## metro

> Well, we know he could design tech products, but I would hate to work in a building like that. And can you image suburbia filled with those things? It may have some aesthetic advantages over some suburban offices and campuses, but it still looks like it has all the downside or sprawl and inefficiency.


Actually Jony Ives is the design genius behind Apple. Jobs was simply the idea man, not the designer. 

I agree with your sprawl comments. Steve Jobs was no Donald Trump or xyz Commercial real estate developer.

----------


## SharkSandwich

I still think the legislature's current initiative to eliminate the state income tax is the last piece of the puzzle before an out of state company announces re-location to OK.  The Cemex angle is interesting.  It also may be a factor in why the DOK and state chamber have fought so hard against recent state immigration reforms from Rep Terrill & Co.  Not trying to stir the political pot.  Just a thought.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Yeah,
> 
> Check this one out. Apples new 4 story, 2.8 million square foot headquarters in Cupertino. It will hold 13,000 employees. Due to be completed in 2015. 
> http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/13/app...-headquarters/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still only one building. Just not vertical.

----------


## Rover

> 1.  Most cities "missed out" on the high-rise housing boom.  Many that did not miss out might wish they had.
> 
> 2.  There is no evidence I am aware of that corporate campuses are a total failure.  If they were, companies would not still be building them.
> 
> Amazon?   From an April 2010 news article:  "It's the beginning of a new era for Amazon.com. The first Amazon employees began moving into the company's new headquarters campus in Seattle's South Lake Union neighborhood this week. The move will take place over stages until 2013, with the online retail giant eventually occupying a dozen buildings totaling nearly 2 million square feet of office space."   They moved from scattered sites around the Seattle area to a corporate campus.  It's an urban corporate campus (although not downtown, but nevertheless a corporate campus.  Not a single building.  And I believe the tallest building is no taller than 12 stories.


Why let some facts stand in the way of theory:  http://www.newgeography.com/content/...ed-not-so-fast  My experience coast to coast the last decade has not indicated a growing trend to increasing growth of office space in center cities vs. suburbs. Most data I see does not support the opinions of this mass movement to the cores except in a few cities like OKC which doesn't have an already developed core.  And, in fact, even in cities like Vancouver, the worry now is that there is so much housing downtown that it is crowding out opportunities for businesses and people are having to commute OUT to jobs more on the outlying areas.

----------


## skanaly

That's why it would be great for companies to move downtown first. Then that's when we can build residential areas and new condos in the future (just like whats proposed in core to shore)

----------


## Oil Capital

> CEMEX-USA is what's in Houston, CEMEX's world headquarters is in Mexico in Monterrey. I did quite a lot of research yesterday regarding CEMEX and it's very interesting. There are apparently some Mexican laws hampering their growth, many business observers are surprised they're still in Mexico, etc. 
> 
> Remember, we're speculating on two tracks here. A large "Fortune 100" firm that a CEO has been lobbying *and* a "large international company" that a chamber representative mentioned. CEMEX, by the way, is a Fortune GLOBAL 500 company.
> 
> At any rate, a consolidation of CEMEX corporate offices would be off-the-radar huge.
> 
> Here's my earlier post about CEMEX with pix of their current offices in Monterrey:
> http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...080#post507080


Yeah, we get it.  I was just responding to a post speculating that their moving out of their current leased space in Houston might mean something.

----------


## MikeOKC

> *Yeah, we get it.*  I was just responding to a post speculating that their moving out of their current leased space in Houston might mean something.


Sorry! Your post didn't make the distinction and I thought you might not realize Houston wasn't their world headquarters. I know you don't care for me due to my posting news about Chesapeake that local news media censors, but really, why carry it over into other threads? "Yeah, we get it," is nothing more than dismissive. I happen to think it _could_ be a major part of this story.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Oil Capital, new assignment.  Take the Forbes Top 100 and do a detailed internet search, leases on headquarters, yadi yada and get back to us with your judgement on which companies have an 80% chance of moving into downtown.  I know you love doing the research ;-)

----------


## Swake2

> Still only one building. Just not vertical.


And the parking is all under it, underground.

----------


## Just the facts

> Yeah,
> 
> Check this one out. Apple’s new 4 story, 2.8 million square foot headquarters in Cupertino. It will hold 13,000 employees. Due to be completed in 2015.


That is going to be some crappy traffic to wait around in.  They better put a gas station in the parking garage.

----------


## OKCNDN

It's Hertz.  They are going to be moving the rest of the their headquarters from Park City, New Jersey to OKC.  The big question is when.  Most of the land around their current headquarters is already owned by Hertz.

----------


## windowphobe

> Why can't we just build a replica of the "Death Star?"


We'd get sued, by either George Lucas (who owns the design) or AT&T (which earned it).

----------


## Pete

> It's Hertz.  They are going to be moving the rest of the their headquarters from Park City, New Jersey to OKC.  The big question is when.  Most of the land around their current headquarters is already owned by Hertz.


Where did you hear this?

Hertz owns the large building it occupies near Quail Springs -- built in 2001/2.

----------


## CurtisJ

> As I was the first person to mention a fortune 100 company I feel like I need to clarify something.  
> 
> What I said was I knew of a (probably unrealistic) effort, by a CEO of one of our larger metro corporations, to bring in a certain fortune 100 company to headquarters in OKC.  It stands to reason then, that other large (not necessarily fortune 100, but possibly) companies may have also been contacted by this CEO, with the same premise in mind.
> 
> The intention behind my comment was to put into scope the ambition of some of the bigwigs in oklahoma to bring in new companies.
> 
>  I did not (at least not intentionally) imply that there IS a fortune 100 company moving there HQ to OKC.


... 



> Oil Capital, new assignment.  Take the Forbes Top 100 and do a detailed internet search, leases on headquarters, yadi yada and get back to us with your judgement on which companies have an 80% chance of moving into downtown.  I know you love doing the research ;-)


I give up...

----------


## dankrutka

> It's Hertz.  They are going to be moving the rest of the their headquarters from Park City, New Jersey to OKC.  The big question is when.  Most of the land around their current headquarters is already owned by Hertz.


This would make sense.

----------


## Pete

Hertz owns two large parcels near QS, each about 30 acres and only half of one developed:

----------


## dankrutka

So... Hertz probably wouldn't be building downtown?

----------


## Just the facts

> It's Hertz.  They are going to be moving the rest of the their headquarters from Park City, New Jersey to OKC.  The big question is when.  Most of the land around their current headquarters is already owned by Hertz.


I already tried that rumor as the buyer of Devon's current building.

----------


## Questor

Thanks UnFrSaKn for posting the pictures of the Vancouver condos.  Those were the ones I was thinking of.  If I remember correctly the design looks really cool at night.

----------


## MikeOKC

Hertz reportedly has 640 employees in Park Ridge. It's a mostly high-skill workforce. Would they really ask these people to move from NYC to Oklahoma City and expect them to say "oh boy!"? Park Ridge is NJ alright, but it's also 29 miles from Mayor Bloomberg's office. I can't see it. There would be a revolution. Nothing against our great city - but we're talking major cultural changes. The county itself, Middlesex, is one of the 50th wealthiest counties in the United States and an exclusive NYC burb - I don't see it.

Those who think it's a possibility - what's the gameplan?

----------


## Just the facts

I don't know Mike, Exxon moved from Rockefeller Center to Irving, TX.

----------


## Bellaboo

> It's Hertz.  They are going to be moving the rest of the their headquarters from Park City, New Jersey to OKC.  The big question is when.  Most of the land around their current headquarters is already owned by Hertz.


Not Hertz, the CEO is from NY and it will never move from Park Ridge, New Jersey, as long as he is in control.

I know them way too well.......for that matter, Ford threatened to move them back in 1998 but it never happened.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Sometimes "change" gets facilitated with bold moves like that.

----------


## Bellaboo

> So... Hertz probably wouldn't be building downtown?


Hertz isn't building anywhere..they downsized here and had the old res center for sale for a while....in fact, Chesapeake bought the res center (on North Penn) and rescinded a month later.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Hertz reportedly has 640 employees in Park Ridge. It's a mostly high-skill workforce. Would they really ask these people to move from NYC to Oklahoma City and expect them to say "oh boy!"? Park Ridge is NJ alright, but it's also 29 miles from Mayor Bloomberg's office. I can't see it. There would be a revolution. Nothing against our great city - but we're talking major cultural changes. The county itself, Middlesex, is one of the 50th wealthiest counties in the United States and an exclusive NYC burb - I don't see it.
> 
> Those who think it's a possibility - what's the gameplan?


Absolutely not ask anyone to move here.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Hertz owns two large parcels near QS, each about 30 acres and only half of one developed:


At one time, they were going to build 2 more 4 story buildings identical to what is there now, plus put a lake in between them.....I actually think they sold those parcels that are marked in yellow.

----------


## MikeOKC

> I don't know Mike, Exxon moved from Rockefeller Center to Irving, TX.


Yes, but those are temporary digs. They're building a HUGE campus in Houston (Spring, TX) that everyone in the business and their dog believes will be the consolidated headquarters of Exxon/Mobil. They denied it a couple of years back, but since the full-scale plans went public - there's no question and even they've backed off and said that everything is on the table. Have you seen how big this project is, btw?
http://swamplot.com/a-first-look-at-...on/2011-03-17/
http://constructioncitizen.com/blog/...ojects/1107061

And, there's a big difference in moving from the NYC metro to DFW or Houston and from NYC metro to Oklahoma City.

----------


## MikeOKC

> Absolutely not ask anyone to move here.


I didn't mean it like that. Seriously, metropolitan New York City to Oklahoma City? It's a great place, our city, but we might do better recruiting companies from someplace other than one of the world's great metropolitan areas. I mean, I love Oklahoma City, but let's get real. That's just not going to happen. If I have to eat my words, I owe you, Bellaboo, lunch anywhere of your choice.

----------


## Just the facts

You guys are aware NYC is bleeding companies, jobs, and people right.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/US-...0/11/id/413989

----------


## Pete

> At one time, they were going to build 2 more 4 story buildings identical to what is there now, plus put a lake in between them.....I actually think they sold those parcels that are marked in yellow.


No, they still own them as per the County Assessor.

----------


## lasomeday

> You guys are aware NYC is bleeding companies, jobs, and people right.
> 
> http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/US-...0/11/id/413989


New York not New Jersey.  I don't see Hertz moving, but maybe another company....

----------


## MikeOKC

> You guys are aware NYC is bleeding companies, jobs, and people right.
> 
> http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/US-...0/11/id/413989


That article specifically states these are Wall Street jobs lost in the securities industry and the domino effect that has hurt.

But, what a difference four months (since the article above) can make.

Just a few days ago, CBS News says that New York City has gained back *52%* of jobs lost in the recession. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505245_1...-around-state/

They've been hurt like everyone else, but _would you bet against New York City?_

I was reading something the other day that said Houston is outpacing everybody else in new jobs by a very wide margin. There's your next great American city. I'll standby as OKCPulse will be here within minutes to tell us we need my head examined. He hasn't liked it there. I love Houston. Its growth has been nothing short of phenomenal.

I'd love to see a new tower downtown and there's a lot of smoke - I'm guessing if there's a fire of real news we'll hear about soon. I hope.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I didn't mean it like that. Seriously, metropolitan New York City to Oklahoma City? It's a great place, our city, but we might do better recruiting companies from someplace other than one of the world's great metropolitan areas. I mean, I love Oklahoma City, but let's get real. That's just not going to happen. If I have to eat my words, I owe you, Bellaboo, lunch anywhere of your choice.


I've known Hertz for 27 years, they outsourced 210 programmers and systems folks 3 years ago to India......they are in the business of downsizing...I'm amazed that Mark P Frissora has let the money fly on the Thunder though.

----------


## OKCNDN

I used to work there in the mid-2000s.  I worked in their company mailroom and delivered mail to all the offices including the top dogs in the OKC offices.  It was always mentioned as in the plans but when?, that was the question.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I used to work there in the mid-2000s.  I worked in their company mailroom and delivered mail to all the offices including the top dogs in the OKC offices.  It was always mentioned as in the plans but when?, that was the question.


Like I said, there was pressure from Ford when they actually were majority owners, but it was just for a few years............. but it won't happen now folks, so we need to move on to someone else.

----------


## Bellaboo

> No, they still own them as per the County Assessor.


It might be that they sold some that was just to the west of their current facility.....like 20 acres about 5 years ago.

----------


## OKCNDN

> Like I said, there was pressure from Ford when they actually were majority owners, but it was just for a few years............. but it won't happen now folks, so we need to move on to someone else.


My governmental accounting instructor told the class that at one time OKC promised big tax breaks to businesses to get them to relocate here.  A few companies came but OKC and the state withdrew their tax incentives.  Now OKC has a bad reputation out there as far as taking back things that were promised.

If OKC and OK make th epromises they need to live up to them or not make them in the first place.

----------


## okcpulse

> My governmental accounting instructor told the class that at one time OKC promised big tax breaks to businesses to get them to relocate here.  A few companies came but OKC and the state withdrew their tax incentives.  Now OKC has a bad reputation out there as far as taking back things that were promised.
> 
> If OKC and OK make th epromises they need to live up to them or not make them in the first place.


I believe you are referring to GM.  The tax break promised to GM was actually against the state constitution.  It was a property tax break that cost the Mid-Del school district ad valorem tax revenue.  It was battled in court and ultimately the constitution prevailed, so GM had to pony up.  It was bad communication and bad circumstances.  OKC did not withdraw any tax incentives.  GM was dealt a blow, and lawmakers failed to show spine and make sure it was a win-win for both GM and the school district.   And no, OKC does not have that reputation.  Everyone knows about the history with GM, but that was 1984.  Almost 30 years later?  Let it go.

I can't believe an instuctor told an entire class that.  Now that's an entire class that is running around with misinformation that will be relayed to more people in conversation, and so on.  Misinformation makes me sick.

----------


## MikeLucky

> My governmental accounting instructor told the class that at one time OKC promised big tax breaks to businesses to get them to relocate here.  A few companies came but OKC and the state withdrew their tax incentives.  Now OKC has a bad reputation out there as far as taking back things that were promised.
> 
> If OKC and OK make th epromises they need to live up to them or not make them in the first place.


Yeah that was GM and it happened about 25 years ago...  quite obviously that's not how business is done here anymore.

----------


## Just the facts

The GM deal was done in 1974 - 38 years ago.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Sorry! Your post didn't make the distinction and I thought you might not realize Houston wasn't their world headquarters. I know you don't care for me due to my posting news about Chesapeake that local news media censors, but really, why carry it over into other threads? "Yeah, we get it," is nothing more than dismissive. I happen to think it _could_ be a major part of this story.


Sorry to burst your bizarrely paranoid little bubble, but not only do I not " not care for you", I had not previously even noticed your existence.  I was also not aware you had been posting "news" about Chesapeake, having not been interested enough to have even opened that particular thread.  

In any event, it is quite hard to see how Cemex moving their US headquarters 100 yards dwn the street in Houston gives any indication whatsoever that they might be moving their world headquarters anywhere.  

FWIW, you have apparently been overlooking a crucial part of the quote from the Chamber of Commerce.  It is not the headquarters of an international company that is considering the move to OKC.  It is the North American headquarters of an international company.  Your Cemex thory does not fit so well under those circumstances.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Yes, but those are temporary digs. They're building a HUGE campus in Houston (Spring, TX) that everyone in the business and their dog believes will be the consolidated headquarters of Exxon/Mobil. They denied it a couple of years back, but since the full-scale plans went public - there's no question and even they've backed off and said that everything is on the table. Have you seen how big this project is, btw?
> http://swamplot.com/a-first-look-at-...on/2011-03-17/
> http://constructioncitizen.com/blog/...ojects/1107061


I thought I was the only one who thought the Exxon HQ was on the move to the new campus.  Glad to hear others have noticed that too.  That campus looks way too spectacular to not be the corporate HQ.  (As an aside, apparently the Exxon Mobil honchos haven't gotten the memo re: the total failure of corporate campuses)

----------


## MikeOKC

> Sorry to burst your bizarrely paranoid little bubble, but not only do I not " not care for you", I had not previously even noticed your existence.  I was also not aware you had been posting "news" about Chesapeake, having not been interested enough to have even opened that particular thread.  
> 
> In any event, it is quite hard to see how Cemex moving their US headquarters 100 yards dwn the street in Houston gives any indication whatsoever that they might be moving their world headquarters anywhere.  
> 
> FWIW, you have apparently been overlooking a crucial part of the quote.  It is not the headquarters of an international company.  It is the North American headquarters of an international company.  Your Cemex thory does not fit so well under those circumstances.


Oil Capital, Come on. About the first part of your post, I don't even know what to say.

As for CEMEX - maybe you missed the whole point. *I was the one* saying you all were discussing CEMEXUSA and that's not at issue. The question is if the *world headquarters in Monterrey* could be considering a move here.* I said that* in response to two of you discussing the CEMEXUSA building in Houston. I said it has nothing to do with anything. That's why you made your "Yeah, we get it" comment in the first place; it was in response to *my explaining in this post* what you just told me(!) 

Paranoid? Maybe you should read through the thread and you'll see who's confused.

You're a snarky one, by the way. Rarely friendly and that's too bad on this forum. By and large, we have a lot of good people that I may disagree with, but make this a great place for discussion because there's no hard feelings despite differences. You? You're nothing but snark and more snark. (Well, it's true.)

ON EDIT: Yeah, I noticed the Exxon/Mobil campus. Imagine that - paranoid, Mike. Maybe we can start over. I've only had "problems" with one person on this board in all these years and we've started over and I find I actually like him very much. Maybe we can start over, too?

----------


## Oil Capital

> Oil Capital, new assignment.  Take the Forbes Top 100 and do a detailed internet search, leases on headquarters, yadi yada and get back to us with your judgement on which companies have an 80% chance of moving into downtown.  I know you love doing the research ;-)


I'll get right on that. ;-)

----------


## Just the facts

> I thought I was the only one who thought the Exxon HQ was on the move to the new campus.  Glad to hear others have noticed that too.  That campus looks way too spectacular to not be the corporate HQ.  (As an aside, apparently the Exxon Mobil honchos haven't gotten the memo re: the total failure of corporate campuses)


Are you saying companies don't make mistakes?

----------


## Oil Capital

LOL.  No.  Obviously not.  But if you want to further your case that corporate campuses are total failures, some kind of evidence (beyond a couple of friends who don't like their particular workplaces) might be useful.

----------


## Just the facts

How about this - I retract the comment.

----------


## soonermike81

> Yes, but those are temporary digs. They're building a HUGE campus in Houston (Spring, TX) that everyone in the business and their dog believes will be the consolidated headquarters of Exxon/Mobil. They denied it a couple of years back, but since the full-scale plans went public - there's no question and even they've backed off and said that everything is on the table. Have you seen how big this project is, btw?
> http://swamplot.com/a-first-look-at-...on/2011-03-17/
> http://constructioncitizen.com/blog/...ojects/1107061
> 
> And, there's a big difference in moving from the NYC metro to DFW or Houston and from NYC metro to Oklahoma City.


My girlfriend works for ExxonMobil, and she doesn't think they're going to move the corporate HQ to the new campus.  Exxon's operations are spread all over the place in Houston and also in Virginia, and the purpose of the campus is to bring all these people together.  Exxon's corporate headquarters in Irving is just that, and office for the top-level executives, attorneys, admins, etc.  There's probably not more than a couple hundred employees there.  She thinks if they wanted to be in Houston, they could have been down there a long time ago.  There haven't been any talks of the execs moving to the new campus.

----------


## MikeOKC

> My girlfriend works for ExxonMobil, and she doesn't think they're going to move the corporate HQ to the new campus.  Exxon's operations are spread all over the place in Houston and also in Virginia, and the purpose of the campus is to bring all these people together.  Exxon's corporate headquarters in Irving is just that, and office for the top-level executives, attorneys, admins, etc.  There's probably not more than a couple hundred employees there.  *She thinks if they wanted to be in Houston, they could have been down there a long time ago.  There haven't been any talks of the execs moving to the new campus.*


Hi, Mike...from Mike...

Oh, there's been _a lot_ of "talk" about moving the 300-400 employees from Irving to Houston after they complete the campus. First, they denied they were building _anything at all_ in Houston, then they finally fessed up (after too many contractors got involved and they put the pieces of the puzzle together about "Project Delta").  It was revealed to be ExxonMobil. After it turned out to be not just a building project, but a massive complex on a grand scale, the rumors started that this was the new world headquarters for ExxonMobil. Consolidate Fairfax, Houston and yes - the crown jewel, the world headquarters from Irving. ExxonMobil finally told everyone about the project but said that the headquarters would stay in Irving. _Huh?_ The more improbable that sounded, the more they stuck to the story. Finally, a top executive is said to have told Houston city leaders that "all options are on the table." To me, it's obvious - they just can't tell the people in Irving now and risk chaos, division, job losses and "taking sides." As the saying goes...when the time is right. A little like college football coaches are never leaving - ignore the rumors - until they announce they're leaving. The denials are shrugged off.

Yes, it's just 300-400 people in Irving. That's not the point at all. It's the prestige, the feather in the cap for Houston - and for Exxon! Think realistically, why would they consolidate office operations at this uber-luxurious new campus _and then leave the executive team in Irving?_ It would make no sense. ExxonMobil wants to be in these statement-making digs they're building as much as Houston city leaders do. When the new mega-campus is completed, why wouldn't ExxonMobil want their world headquarters in the energy capital of the world?

Your girlfriend may be right, Mike. As odd as that would be at a logical level, it's always possible. But, I'd wager hard cash. We'll see.

----------


## metro

> Sorry to burst your bizarrely paranoid little bubble....
> 
> FWIW, you have apparently been overlooking a crucial part of the quote from the Chamber of Commerce.  It is not the headquarters of an international company that is considering the move to OKC.  It is the North American headquarters of an international company.  Your Cemex thory does not fit so well under those circumstances.


LOL, although this wasn't directed at me, you do realize that Mexico is considered North America dont you? Now I don't think it's Cemex, but I suppose there is a slight chance.

----------


## Bellaboo

> My girlfriend works for ExxonMobil, and she doesn't think they're going to move the corporate HQ to the new campus.  Exxon's operations are spread all over the place in Houston and also in Virginia, and the purpose of the campus is to bring all these people together.  Exxon's corporate headquarters in Irving is just that, and office for the top-level executives, attorneys, admins, etc.  There's probably not more than a couple hundred employees there.  She thinks if they wanted to be in Houston, they could have been down there a long time ago.  There haven't been any talks of the execs moving to the new campus.


My step son works in R&D on Buffalo Speedway in Houston. It's the unit bought from Standard years ago. Some of the commercils for E/M that we've seen in the last few years were filmed there. That unit is closing down and moving to the new campus in Spring.

----------


## Oil Capital

LOL. Yes, indeed, I do realize that Mexico is in North America.  The Cemex HQ that MikeOKC and others are discussing moving to OKC from Monterrey, however, is not a North American HQ.  It is a world corporate HQ,  You do realize there is a difference between North America and the world, don't you?   ;-)

----------


## G.Walker

Read the last 15 posts, and its a great example on how a thread dies. :Boxing2:

----------


## Oil Capital

> Hi, Mike...from Mike...
> 
> Oh, there's been _a lot_ of "talk" about moving the 300-400 employees from Irving to Houston after they complete the campus. First, they denied they were building _anything at all_ in Houston, then they finally fessed up (after too many contractors got involved and they put the pieces of the puzzle together about "Project Delta").  It was revealed to be ExxonMobil. After it turned out to be not just a building project, but a massive complex on a grand scale, the rumors started that this was the new world headquarters for ExxonMobil. Consolidate Fairfax, Houston and yes - the crown jewel, the world headquarters from Irving. ExxonMobil finally told everyone about the project but said that the headquarters would stay in Irving. _Huh?_ The more improbable that sounded, the more they stuck to the story. Finally, a top executive is said to have told Houston city leaders that "all options are on the table." To me, it's obvious - they just can't tell the people in Irving now and risk chaos, division, job losses and "taking sides." As the saying goes...when the time is right. A little like college football coaches are never leaving - ignore the rumors - until they announce they're leaving. The denials are shrugged off.
> 
> Yes, it's just 300-400 people in Irving. That's not the point at all. It's the prestige, the feather in the cap for Houston - and for Exxon! Think realistically, why would they consolidate office operations at this uber-luxurious new campus _and then leave the executive team in Irving?_ It would make no sense. ExxonMobil wants to be in these statement-making digs they're building as much as Houston city leaders do. When the new mega-campus is completed, why wouldn't ExxonMobil want their world headquarters in the energy capital of the world?
> 
> Your girlfriend may be right, Mike. As odd as that would be at a logical level, it's always possible. But, I'd wager hard cash. We'll see.


I think you have it exactly right, Mike.  

XOM has given conflicting and very ambiguus information from the beginning.  One day a spokesman says that all offices and real estate are being studied.  Another day they say the HQ is not even part of this study (which may mean nothing at all).  I don't think they have ever really definitively said what is and what is not moving to the new campus, although IIRC, they have said they have not yet decided anything about the Virginia campus.  Of course That may be more about keeping the Virginia operation running smoothly until the new campus is ready for them.

----------


## OKCNDN

The GM deal may have happened 28-38 years ago but there is no doubt in my mind that OKC and OK in general have a bad image about it nonetheless.  Look, you guys know that whenever someone mentions OK they think of a podunk town and backwards state.  They think of the Dust Bowl.  Despite changes and improvements to OKC and OK people still think like that.  People already have a bad image of OK and when things like the rebate being taken back (and it was given but against the state constitution as mentioned earlier so indeed it was taken back but not by those who granted it) people just use that as further proof that OK is backwards, whether that's fair or not.

The fact that the rebates were against the state constitution makes OK seem all the more backwards 1000 times worse.  If OK officials don't even know if a rebate is within their power to grant the rebate that just makes them seem even more ignorant and not to be believed.

----------


## dankrutka

> The GM deal may have happened 28-38 years ago but there is no doubt in my mind that OKC and OK in general have a bad image about it nonetheless.  Look, you guys know that whenever someone mentions OK they think of a podunk town and backwards state.  They think of the Dust Bowl.  Despite changes and improvements to OKC and OK people still think like that.  People already have a bad image of OK and when things like the rebate being taken back (and it was given but against the state constitution as mentioned earlier so indeed it was taken back but not by those who granted it) people just use that as further proof that OK is backwards, whether that's fair or not.
> 
> The fact that the rebates were against the state constitution makes OK seem all the more backwards 1000 times worse.  If OK officials don't even know if a rebate is within their power to grant the rebate that just makes them seem even more ignorant and not to be believed.


I agree people hold stereotypical views of Oklahoma, but every state does dumb stuff. I do not think people are dwelling on something that happened in the 1970s. I guarantee you very few people nationally have any clue that happened.

----------


## okcpulse

> The GM deal may have happened 28-38 years ago but there is no doubt in my mind that OKC and OK in general have a bad image about it nonetheless.  Look, you guys know that whenever someone mentions OK they think of a podunk town and backwards state.  They think of the Dust Bowl.


Most of the younger generation today who think of OK as a dust bowl state won't even come close to associating the GM incident with the image they have of Oklahoma.  Most don't even have a clue it happened.  My take on this whole dust bowl image fiasco is this... if misinformation hadn't occurred to begin with, it never would have been a problem.  The fact that John Steiback's grossly inaccurate novel was part of the national school curriculum greatly exacerbated the problem.  Not to even mention the author never set foot in our state.  I won't even go into the Henry Fonda flick.




> Despite changes and improvements to OKC and OK people still think like that.  People already have a bad image of OK and when things like the rebate being taken back (and it was given but against the state constitution as mentioned earlier so indeed it was taken back but not by those who granted it) people just use that as further proof that OK is backwards, whether that's fair or not.


That's evidence of ignorance.  We can accomplish a million feats to improve our image and people's mind will never change.  




> The fact that the rebates were against the state constitution makes OK seem all the more backwards 1000 times worse.  If OK officials don't even know if a rebate is within their power to grant the rebate that just makes them seem even more ignorant and not to be believed.


Again, this was the legislature in the 1980s.  They made a lot of mistakes that cost the state's economy.  Thanks to term limits, they are not in office any more.  OK officials today have created rebates and incentives to lure jobs and create jobs.  The Oklahoma Quality Jobs Act didn't exist until 9 years after GM's rebate was rescinded.  In fact, the state can create a laundry list of incentives and rebates as long as it doesn't impact ad valorem taxes.  

Besides, the strides the OKC Chamber of Commerce has made along with the State Legislature is gaining traction across the country.  Here we are with Boeing adding over 1,000 high-paying jobs, and we are still muddling over GM.  We can't focus on past mistakes.  Civic leaders are staying focused on better programs and ways to make Oklahoma attractive to companies.  As long as they are successful, which they have been, the rest will take care of itself.

----------


## Pete

> It might be that they sold some that was just to the west of their current facility.....like 20 acres about 5 years ago.


Not according to any records I could find through the County Assessor.

----------


## BDP

> Look, you guys know that whenever someone mentions OK they think of a podunk town and backwards state. They think of the Dust Bowl.


There are a lot of reasons for this and some of them are still true. However, we have seen real change recently and we are beginning to have more to sell the city on than just its relative cheapness. You can offer all the incentives and cheap cost of living you want, but, honestly, a most of the big time players, or any players really, are not looking for cheapness just to be cheap. They are looking for quality and/or value. The difference now is that there is a lot more value to the city, more upside, and a better quality of life than there has been since the dust bowl and Steinbeck.

I think the podunk image is eroding some with the relatively stronger economy we've had the last few years and higher profile exposure, like the NBA. It's going to take a longer time to shake the "backwards" image of the state as a whole, mainly due to the focus of our legislature. But even there, I have seen more vocal resistance from prominent business leaders against the often self righteous nature of our state's legal sessions than I remember hearing before.

I don't think you're going to change the state's overall image, but it is very possible for Oklahoma City to achieve some bit of antithesis status like Austin has in Texas or Charlotte in North Carolina. Both cities have been fairly successful at shaking the negative connotations, justified or not, that are often attributed to their states as a whole.

----------


## Pete

Yes, I was just going to mention that just about every emerging boom town started with a small-town, at least somewhat backwards image.  I don't think anyone would have listed Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, Austin, Salt Lake, Tampa, Nashville, or even Phoenix as great centers of cosmopolitan life before they really took off.

But they all experienced a tipping point where the attitudes shifted, internally and externally.  That is clearly happening with OKC now and in many ways has already occurred.

And I think Americans are very used to these shifts taking place...  It's been happening in the south and west for the better part of a century -- it's very much a big part of how this country has grown and excelled.

----------


## Rover

> The GM deal may have happened 28-38 years ago but there is no doubt in my mind that OKC and OK in general have a bad image about it nonetheless.  Look, you guys know that whenever someone mentions OK they think of a podunk town and backwards state.  They think of the Dust Bowl.  Despite changes and improvements to OKC and OK people still think like that.  People already have a bad image of OK and when things like the rebate being taken back (and it was given but against the state constitution as mentioned earlier so indeed it was taken back but not by those who granted it) people just use that as further proof that OK is backwards, whether that's fair or not.
> 
> The fact that the rebates were against the state constitution makes OK seem all the more backwards 1000 times worse.  If OK officials don't even know if a rebate is within their power to grant the rebate that just makes them seem even more ignorant and not to be believed.


This is such an outdated view of reality I think the poster hasn't been in the real world for awhile.  This isn't the contemporary view of OK.

----------


## dankrutka

> if misinformation hadn't occurred to begin with, it never would have been a problem.  The fact that John Steiback's grossly inaccurate novel was part of the national school curriculum greatly exacerbated the problem.


I'm sorry that this is off topic, but I'm one of those teachers that uses Steinbeck. The problem is not with Steinbeck, but with people who are unable to understand it (i.e. YOU). Steinbeck portrays the Joads as kind and hard working people who are stereotyped by a cruel society. Maybe you need to read the book again. I do not think it portrays Oklahoma negatively at all. People that think this either haven't read it or hold highly stereotypical beliefs themselves. Some of these stereotypes are present in this thread. What's wrong with a "podunk" town? Small towns are a big part of Oklahoma? Of course, there are negative things that sometimes come along with them, but to dismiss them all is pretty arrogant. Everywhere in Oklahoma isn't going to be cosmopolitan and we need to be okay with that.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm sorry that this is off topic, but I'm one of those teachers that uses Steinbeck. The problem is not with Steinbeck, but with people who are unable to understand it (e.g. YOU). Steinbeck portrays the Joads as kind and hard working people who are stereotyped by a cruel society. Maybe you need to read the book again. I do not think it portrays Oklahoma negatively at all. People that think this either haven't read it or hold highly stereotypical beliefs themselves.


What does this have to do with the mystery tower ?

----------


## Bellaboo

I remember someone here, it may have been EDCRUNK, who worked at the Colcord, who overheard some businessmen talking about some new big building being built....about 6 to 9 months ago ???   could this be it ?

----------


## dankrutka

> What does this have to do with the mystery tower ?


Nothing. Did you read the first six words of my post? I apologized for being off-topic, but when people throw ignorant comments out there I think it's appropriate to respond... even if it's off topic.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Nothing. Did you read the first six words of my post? I apologized for being off-topic, but when people throw ignorant comments out there I think it's appropriate to respond... even if it's off topic.


I understand, I was just trying to 'right the ship' here.

----------


## metro

> The GM deal may have happened 28-38 years ago but there is no doubt in my mind that OKC and OK in general have a bad image about it nonetheless.  Look, you guys know that whenever someone mentions OK they think of a podunk town and backwards state.  They think of the Dust Bowl.  Despite changes and improvements to OKC and OK people still think like that.  People already have a bad image of OK and when things like the rebate being taken back (and it was given but against the state constitution as mentioned earlier so indeed it was taken back but not by those who granted it) people just use that as further proof that OK is backwards, whether that's fair or not.
> 
> The fact that the rebates were against the state constitution makes OK seem all the more backwards 1000 times worse.  If OK officials don't even know if a rebate is within their power to grant the rebate that just makes them seem even more ignorant and not to be believed.


No, not really N-D-N, I travel fairly regularly and have either encountered positive opinions of OK, or no preconceived opinions or perceptions at all.

----------


## king183

> I'm sorry that this is off topic, but I'm one of those teachers that uses Steinbeck. The problem is not with Steinbeck, but with people who are unable to understand it (i.e. YOU). Steinbeck portrays the Joads as kind and hard working people who are stereotyped by a cruel society. Maybe you need to read the book again. I do not think it portrays Oklahoma negatively at all. People that think this either haven't read it or hold highly stereotypical beliefs themselves. Some of these stereotypes are present in this thread. What's wrong with a "podunk" town? Small towns are a big part of Oklahoma? Of course, there are negative things that sometimes come along with them, but to dismiss them all is pretty arrogant. Everywhere in Oklahoma isn't going to be cosmopolitan and we need to be okay with that.


Well said.

----------


## MDot

> What does this have to do with the mystery tower ?


Dude, we haven't talked about the mystery tower for like 6 pages now. LOL

----------


## Bellaboo

> Dude, we haven't talked about the mystery tower for like 6 pages now. LOL


I know it, but i'm trying to, see post #261....

----------


## Skyline

Any chance they keep the name "Mystery Tower"?

I like it!

----------


## Just the facts

I prefer Tower X.

----------


## MDot

> I know it, but i'm trying to, see post #261....


Yeah, I seen that and I never heard anyone say anything about it so I'm just as curious as you are.

----------


## G.Walker

I think we will get an announcement sooner than later. Mark Beffort wouldn't have mentioned something that strong, unless he knew it was going to happen for sure, and it was close to being announced. However, I would rather wait until 12-31-2012 and hear announcement of the new skyscraper, with 100% chance construction would start, then to get an announcement tomm, only for it to get shot down because it was announced to early without everything being a done deal.

----------


## G.Walker

My prediction is an announcement within 90 days...

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I prefer Tower X.


How 'bout MidCemHertz Tower?

----------


## okcpulse

> I'm sorry that this is off topic, but I'm one of those teachers that uses Steinbeck. The problem is not with Steinbeck, but with people who are unable to understand it (i.e. YOU). Steinbeck portrays the Joads as kind and hard working people who are stereotyped by a cruel society. Maybe you need to read the book again. I do not think it portrays Oklahoma negatively at all. People that think this either haven't read it or hold highly stereotypical beliefs themselves. Some of these stereotypes are present in this thread. What's wrong with a "podunk" town? Small towns are a big part of Oklahoma? Of course, there are negative things that sometimes come along with them, but to dismiss them all is pretty arrogant. Everywhere in Oklahoma isn't going to be cosmopolitan and we need to be okay with that.


Please read my response in Steve's thread.

----------


## Just the facts

> How 'bout MidCemHertz Tower?


You might actually be on to something there.  What about a single tower with two high profile tennants - MidFirst and American Fidelity.  The BNY Mellon Center houses the headquarters of FMC and Sunoco (both Fortune 500 companies).

----------


## skanaly

These would look good:



http://www.techpin.com/wp-content/up...-buildings.jpg
http://tuhinternational.com/wp-conte...e-by-SOM_3.jpg

----------


## metro

> I think we will get an announcement sooner than later. Mark Beffort wouldn't have mentioned something that strong, unless he knew it was going to happen for sure, and it was close to being announced. However, I would rather wait until 12-31-2012 and hear announcement of the new skyscraper, with 100% chance construction would start, then to get an announcement tomm, only for it to get shot down because it was announced to early without everything being a done deal.


  That's not possible, that's 10 days after the world ends. Try again.

----------


## Questor

Skanaly I really like that third picture, minus the bottom floors.

On the subject of pre-conceived notions, when I travel and when we talk to our peers at work about moving here it seems that the only states that still really have something against us are California and Texas.  I think in both cases it is because there are generational relationships of dislike that go back with our states (e.g. California and many of their Oklahoman roots, Texas and various TX/OK rivalries, etc.).  Besides the two of them by and large it doesn't seem to me like people think anything at all about our state either way, but they sure do love the Thunder.

----------


## dmoor82

After bugging the sh** out of my neighbor for Months upon months I tould him about this mystery tower news and He said"I told You",He also said prbably two scrapers might rise at almost the same time!Take it for what it's worth,but every detail this guy has told me about has come true!

----------


## Steve

> After bugging the sh** out of my neighbor for Months upon months I tould him about this mystery tower news and He said"I told You",He also said prbably two scrapers might rise at almost the same time!Take it for what it's worth,but every detail this guy has told me about has come true!


This is quite possible... it would clear up a lot of weird things I've been tracking in chasing this story.

----------


## dmoor82

Steve,You know alot more than Me,but I know some city leaders and construction workers who have loose lips,Take it for what it's worth,it's all speculation until confirmation.All it took was One local company to invest in vertical development,now others see the benefit of vertical consolidation,just makes good buisness sense!

----------


## dankrutka

> I know some city leaders and construction workers who have loose lips,Take it for what it's worth,it's all speculation until confirmation.


Nope. You said it. Two skyscrapers at once. FACT. I wonder if they'll be connected?  :Wink:

----------


## Just the facts

> Skanaly I really like that third picture, minus the bottom floors.
> 
> On the subject of pre-conceived notions, when I travel and when we talk to our peers at work about moving here it seems that the only states that still really have something against us are California and Texas.  I think in both cases it is because there are generational relationships of dislike that go back with our states (e.g. California and many of their Oklahoman roots, Texas and various TX/OK rivalries, etc.).  Besides the two of them by and large it doesn't seem to me like people think anything at all about our state either way, but they sure do love the Thunder.


I can tell you first hand that the people I worked with in Philadelphia were stunned and pleasantly surprised when seeing pictures of downtown OKC on my laptop.  They said they never expected OKC to have skyscrapers and almost fell out their chairs when they asked how many people lived in OKC and I told them nearly 1.3 million metro wide.  They thought OKC had 100,000 people.  Mind you, these were not stupid people, it was just that OKC was not part of their realm of knowledge.

----------


## Steve

Guys, I don't know if there will be two skyscrapers. I don't know FOR CERTAIN whether there will be one new skyscraper (though the smoke is getting awfully thick). But there sure are a lot of my trip wires being set off....

----------


## Rover

> I can tell you first hand that the people I worked with in Philadelphia were stunned and pleasantly surprised when seeing pictures of downtown OKC on my laptop.  They said they never expected OKC to have skycrapers and almost fell out their chairs when they asked how many people lived in OKC and I told them nearly 1.3 million metro wide.  They thought OKC had 100,000 people.  Mind you, these were not stupid people, it was just that OKC was not part of their realm of knowledge.


They may not be stupid, but they are sure ignorant.  I deal with business people all over the country and fortunately I don't deal with any that uninformed.  Sorry that is your work clientele.  Most reasonably informed people in this country don't have such ignorance.  Certainly this isn't common.

----------


## Just the facts

Whatever Rover.

----------


## dmoor82

> Nope. You said it. Two skyscrapers at once. FACT. I wonder if they'll be connected?


Take it for what its worth!I mean,who am I?I know You were jokin',but some people on here take things to seriously,that why I've taken a break from here!

----------


## OKC1987

I just wanted to throw this out there in the world of speculation, but in terms of a new potential Headquarters heading to Oklahoma City the chamber was quoted as saying “A North American Headquarters for an international company” and I can’t help but point out, 

CNOOC (Chinese National Offshore Oil Corporation)

They are a large Chinese Energy company that over the past two years has forged a huge partnership with Chesapeake Energy on more than one occasion. 

10/2010

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...69A0T520101011

http://www.ogfj.com/articles/2010/11...hesapeake.html 

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/...-billion-deal/

January 2011

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...835369458.html 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...17000120110131

CNOOC Press Release

http://www.cnoocltd.com/encnoocltd/n...011/1590.shtml

Another large Chinese Energy Company called Sinopec, which is considered a sister company of CNOOC, just inked a deal with Devon

January 2012

http://www.gordonenergysolutions.com...-Resource-Deal 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8C36L720120103 

Both of these companies have become huge global energy companies, with Sinopec listed as 22nd, and CNOOC listed as 34th. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...purchases.html

While this is pure idle speculation, it does seem to fit at least some of the tidbits that people have been hearing. 

	Per the Chamber – North American Headquarters for large International Company
        Many people have posted that they heard that “An Energy Company” wants to establish a headquarters in Oklahoma City. 

Both companies are expanding rapidly and also have been going through great lengths to get established in North America. 

With Multi-Billion Dollar Partnerships with two prominent Oklahoma City Companies, is it such a stretch that they would need to establish a North American Headquarters? And if so, what better place to establish said Headquarters than next to their large business partners right here in Oklahoma City??

----------


## dmoor82

I know We're all excited over the things that have recently happened,here in OKC but We have only seen a fraction of what is to come!Only the tip of the iceburg.The economy is picking up and OKC is very attractive to investors,and We might even see an actual "boom" in OKC,that some people would never have even dreamed of!Watch what additional develpment/investment OKC will see for the next few Years and it will rival the past decade!That's just my two cents,take it for what it's worth,but I mean hey who am I to speculate on these matters?

----------


## Just the facts

As I have said many times - just wait until streetcar tracks start get put down.

----------


## Rover

Yea, it isn't the jobs and the money pouring in, it's the streetcars causing the boom.  Lol

----------


## Steve

I've said this before, I'll say it again. This is feeling like 1982 again... trust me when I say you don't want to relive 1983.

----------


## G.Walker

In 1982, Oklahoma Tower was just completed, and Valliance Bank Tower and Leadership Square was under construction.

----------


## David Pollard

This is a true feeding frenzy!! But the speculation is fun so have at it!

----------


## Pete

This has been stated before but high standards have been set by Devon, the Myriad Gardens and SandRidge.

Whatever comes next almost has to be a cut above what we saw with the Oklahoma, Corporate and Mid America Towers.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

It'll be great when people do a Google image search of Oklahoma City and see Devon Tower in the photos instead of the old skyline. The average person has to search a little to find anything new that's going on here still.

----------


## lasomeday

> As I have said many times - just wait until streetcar tracks start get put down.


Yeah JTF, I see the streetcar spurring midrise residential more than skyscrapers.  I see 8-10 story residential with retail on the ground floor following the tracks.  

I hope it spurs some infill on Automobile Alley.  I just love that area.  It is the red headed step child of the OKC Chamber and City Big Wigs.  They leave it out of every presentation and any pr that it should have.

It would be nice if we had one or two 15-30 story residential along the streetcar route.  Kind of like what has been happening in Portland.

----------


## HotStuff80

For me, I can easily understand why California and Texas are negative...   OKC is certainly in the center of the nation; the cost of many things there are lower and, your city is also advantaged due to the fact that the old way of thinking (by old city govt) "We don't want to be like Dallas", is beginning to see the light.

My only concern is that there will still remain another energy bust.  This is why I hope that OKC will try to diversify their industries.

Whatever you decide to do, *GO FOR IT!!!!*  :Yourock:

----------


## DelCamino

nm

----------


## Teo9969

> I've said this before, I'll say it again. This is feeling like 1982 again... trust me when I say you don't want to relive 1983.


Is that actually at risk of happening? Obviously OKC could take some hits for a variety of reasons: Chesapeake leaving OKC one way or another because of Aubrey's riskiness the entire country's economy crashing, or oil plummeting to like $40/barrel. But unless all those things happen simultaneously OKC should continue to press forward. Furthermore, it seems to me natural gas is undervalued. If natural gas were to take off all over the country, I would harbor a guess that more than a couple skyscrapers will arise.

----------


## Bellaboo

The problem with 1983, was the 10 year recovery correction it took from the failure of Penn Square Bank. I think our local banking industry is much stronger and less reckless than back in the early eighties. The mild winter has hindered natural gas prices, but the break even cost of NG is somewhere around the $2.50 range per thousand, lets hope it doesn't dip below that.

----------


## Pete

I moved about 20 posts to the streetcar thread.

----------


## G.Walker

> I moved about 20 posts to the streetcar thread.


thank you, people need to learn to discuss topics in the appropriate thread...

----------


## G.Walker

back to subject...I hope the mystery tower is not by an energy company. This will make Oklahoma City more attractive to different corporations wanting to relocate. I think if a city focuses on recruiting companies from one industry, it can hinder development. I am hoping the new skyscraper is for a major bank or aviation company. It would be nice to see a major corporation undertake corporate responsibility and invest in downtown, other than Devon, Chesapeake, Sandridge, or Continental Resources.

----------


## Skyline

This new "Mystery Tower" speculation, is really gaining some serious word on the street type of momentum.  Over the weekend I bumped into a few people that are in the contracting and engineering professions and the unconfirmed reports are spreading with real excitement. 

I am guessing that somebody is actually very close to breaking this news story with factual evidence soon, seems to be to many people talking now.

----------


## G.Walker

Yea, I think the more and more the skyscraper speculation spreads, the company will eventually give in and do formal announcement, since everybody already knows. I think once we know what company is building it, an announcement will soon follow.

----------


## MikeLucky

> They may not be stupid, but they are sure ignorant.  I deal with business people all over the country and fortunately I don't deal with any that uninformed.  Sorry that is your work clientele.  Most reasonably informed people in this country don't have such ignorance.  Certainly this isn't common.


This statement shows how ignorant you are to the reality of this situation... Most people that don't live in Oklahoma DO NOT spend the time or effort to remain knowledgeable about places like Oklahoma... Just like most people in Oklahoma have precoceived notions about places like Mississippi, Wyoming, Alaska... etc...

It's just human nature, and it means little of their character or intelligence...  It's just life.  And if you think it's bad in regards to Oklahoma, try New Mexico... you wouldn't believe the amount of smart, educated, level headed americans don't realize that New Mexico is NOT part of Mexico.  It's unbelievable...

----------


## Teo9969

> This statement shows how ignorant you are to the reality of this situation... Most people that don't live in Oklahoma DO NOT spend the time or effort to remain knowledgeable about places like Oklahoma... Just like most people in Oklahoma have precoceived notions about places like Mississippi, Wyoming, Alaska... etc...
> 
> It's just human nature, and it means little of their character or intelligence...  It's just life.  And if you think it's bad in regards to Oklahoma, try New Mexico... *you wouldn't believe the amount of smart, educated*, level headed americans don't realize that New Mexico is NOT part of Mexico.  It's unbelievable...


I just don't know that I could call someone smart or educated who is not aware what states are part of the union.

----------


## lasomeday

> just thoughts, and I hope multiple skyscraper announcements happen (2+ Class A leasable towers, 2+ owner-occupied office towers, X residential towers, Y hotel and hotel/condo towers) and that they are all big and glass/modern. We can hope for smaller infill projects to be other architectural schools (Art Deco, Art Moderne, .....) but we need our tallest and biggest to be modern/post modern/futuristic IMO.


I agre HOT ROD, modern/post modern/futuristic glass buildings are the only way to go.  The marble/concrete/stone is 15-30 years ago.  Here are some designs that I really like.  *Maybe something like these*.

*Infinity Tower*  (this would look awesome and kind of look like the strong Oklahoma wind is making the building twist)

http://realestate.theemiratesnetwork...nity_tower.php

[/URL]*The Pinnacle* (Like the spinning look, kind of like a drill bit.)



*Rolex Tower* (A similar building to this for the future Sandrige Tower...The windows would be a great contrast and compliment to the Sandridge Tower)


*Aqua* (Residential Tower Perfection!)

http://archichoong.blogspot.com/2010...-illinois.html

Some other towers that would be nice.

Zlota Tower in Poland.
Gerken in London.
Absolute World North in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

----------


## king183

> This statement shows how ignorant you are to the reality of this situation... Most people that don't live in Oklahoma DO NOT spend the time or effort to remain knowledgeable about places like Oklahoma... Just like most people in Oklahoma have precoceived notions about places like Mississippi, Wyoming, Alaska... etc...
> 
> It's just human nature, and it means little of their character or intelligence...  It's just life.  And if you think it's bad in regards to Oklahoma, try New Mexico... you wouldn't believe the amount of smart, educated, level headed americans don't realize that New Mexico is NOT part of Mexico.  It's unbelievable...


Whether you know it or not, you just agreed 100% with what Rover said. He didn't call them unintelligent, by the way. He said they were ignorant.  You then went on to explain that they were ignorant and why.  The fact is, people are ignorant of Oklahoma (and of other states).  

Oklahoma has a reputation out there-- some think it's bad, some don't.  Either way, I think it's improving quite a bit.  The Thunder, Devon, and hopefully the new corporate HQ will help to continue the improvement.

----------


## catch22

> Yea, I think the more and more the skyscraper speculation spreads, the company will eventually give in and do formal announcement, since everybody already knows. I think once we know what company is building it, an announcement will soon follow.


In other words, keep talking about it until it is true?

Just let it develop naturally, if the company is going to be building for sure, talking about it won't force them to come out with plans any sooner than they want. 

This forums is like high school all over again.....it didn't used to be this desperate for news releases/information. I admire the enthusiasm but, really? Lol.

----------


## king183

So we're looking at a new tower for this new corporate HQ, a high-rse for a convention hotel, the new Sandridge tower, and probably a high/mid-rise residential tower.  That alone will transform the OKC skyline to something unrecognizable compared to just a year ago.  

Then, of course, there's the possibility of an additional corporate tower.  So, close to five new high/mid rises by 2020.  That'll be realllll nice.

----------


## Pete

Preconceived notions go both ways...

There are many in Oklahoma that think California is nothing but left-wing, gay vegans and that the whole place is nothing but gangs and fault lines.

There are ignorant people everywhere and many who love to cling to these types of ideas because it makes them feel better about where they are.  That's never going to change.


BTW, I posted that cool nighttime photo of Devon Tower with CHK Arena in the foreground to my Facebook page a couple of weeks ago and lots of my California friends were impressed and most here realize that Oklahoma is really moving up in the world.

A couple of more tall buildings on our skyline would certainly help to further our national image.

----------


## lasomeday

> This statement shows how ignorant you are to the reality of this situation... Most people that don't live in Oklahoma DO NOT spend the time or effort to remain knowledgeable about places like Oklahoma... Just like most people in Oklahoma have precoceived notions about places like Mississippi, Wyoming, Alaska... etc...
> 
> It's just human nature, and it means little of their character or intelligence...  It's just life.  And if you think it's bad in regards to Oklahoma, try New Mexico... you wouldn't believe the amount of smart, educated, level headed americans don't realize that New Mexico is NOT part of Mexico.  It's unbelievable...


What does this have to do with anything?  Can you please comment on the Mystery Tower or the Company building the tower.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> So we're looking at a new tower for this new corporate HQ, a high-rse for a convention hotel, the new Sandridge tower, and probably a high/mid-rise residential tower.  That alone will transform the OKC skyline to something unrecognizable compared to just a year ago.  
> 
> Then, of course, there's the possibility of an additional corporate tower.  So, close to five new high/mid rises by 2020.  That'll be realllll nice.


it truly is a great time to be living in OKC

----------


## Pete

People scoffed when I drew the comparison to Charlotte of 15 years ago but I stand by it.  There is a lot to say about raising the bar and for momentum.

OKC currently has more going on it's downtown than all but a few of the biggest cities in the U.S.

I know there can be lots of complaining about the things done here and they way they are handled, but the bottom line is that things ARE getting done and it seems we are just getting started.

----------


## Rover

> This statement shows how ignorant you are to the reality of this situation... Most people that don't live in Oklahoma DO NOT spend the time or effort to remain knowledgeable about places like Oklahoma... Just like most people in Oklahoma have precoceived notions about places like Mississippi, Wyoming, Alaska... etc...
> 
> It's just human nature, and it means little of their character or intelligence...  It's just life.  And if you think it's bad in regards to Oklahoma, try New Mexico... you wouldn't believe the amount of smart, educated, level headed americans don't realize that New Mexico is NOT part of Mexico.  It's unbelievable...


I will stand by my statements.  It is based on dealing daily with businesspeople from across the US, and indeed, around the world.  Does someone in hicksville New Jersey have a backward opinion of Oklahoma...sure some do.  Does someone in Yukon, OK have a backward opinion of Oklahoma...sure some do.  Do people in OKC have a caricature view of New Yorkers....you bet some do.  However, by in large, OKC is more respected by people making real business decisions than many Oklahomans want to believe.  It is easy to play the victim.  But, OKC has more going for it than many even here in OKC recognize.

----------


## dcsooner

I just hope all this wild axx speculation of new building(s) or corporate expansion,  doesn't end up making a whole lot of good people look foolish if/when it doesn't happen.

----------


## lasomeday

Back to the subject!  This isn't a what do people think of OKC thread!

I think a residential tower Condo/Apartment should be in the works.  We have a lot of potential tenants..... Downtown workers coming in by the droves from Devon, Enogex, Continental, and Sandridge, UCO ACM students, Thunder players, Red Hawk players, Baron players, Medical District doctors, dentists and students, and anyone that wants to live in an urban environment.  We have the market just need the building.  

Location of the building is another topic that we could delve into!  I think Century Center Parking Garage is an option as well as Preftakes block.  Maybe one in Midtown.  Even a 15 story tower in bricktown would be filled once built with just UCO ACM students..... (2014 finish date... School would have tripled in size by then)

----------


## shawnw

> Even a 15 story tower in bricktown would be filled once built with just UCO ACM students..... (2014 finish date... School would have tripled in size by then)


My daughter plans to go to ACM and graduates from Classen in 2014. Please make this happen!  :-)

----------


## Pete

Here's how I would handicap all these possible projects:

1. SandRidge Tower.  90% likelihood as they've gone on record several times.  I have the feeling they may not want to top their current tower, so best guest is 15 to 25 floors.

2. Convention Center Hotel.  80% likelihood.  The big players and money really want this to happen but a big chunk of city funds will be needed.  Given the chosen location for the CC, it's going to have to go vertical:  20 to 30 floors.

3. Mystery Tower.  60% likelihood.  Lots and lots of smoke around this from many reputable sources, although not specific announcement as of yet.  If it happens, it will probably be on the SW corner of Main & Hudson and everything points to 30 to 50 floors.

4. Mystery Tower II.  30% likelihood.  Could be there are two new towers in the works, not just one.  But we don't have a site for this or anything specific.  Best guess would be 20 to 40 floors.

5. Residential Tower.  10% likelihood.  The condo market is still really tough and there is plenty of space for mid-rise residential, so I don't see anything tall (as in over 15 floors) happening for a while.

----------


## king183

> People scoffed when I drew the comparison to Charlotte of 15 years ago but I stand by it.  There is a lot to say about raising the bar and for momentum.
> 
> OKC currently has more going on it's downtown than all but a few of the biggest cities in the U.S.
> 
> I know there can be lots of complaining about the things done here and they way they are handled, but the bottom line is that things ARE getting done and it seems we are just getting started.


Pete, you were the first person I heard make that comparison, but you haven't been the last.  I've heard quite a few connected people bring up Charlotte when talking about what's in store for OKC.  So either you were the opinion leader on that comparison or it is based on good news--or both.

----------


## soonermike81

> Hi, Mike...from Mike...
> 
> Oh, there's been _a lot_ of "talk" about moving the 300-400 employees from Irving to Houston after they complete the campus. First, they denied they were building _anything at all_ in Houston, then they finally fessed up (after too many contractors got involved and they put the pieces of the puzzle together about "Project Delta").  It was revealed to be ExxonMobil. After it turned out to be not just a building project, but a massive complex on a grand scale, the rumors started that this was the new world headquarters for ExxonMobil. Consolidate Fairfax, Houston and yes - the crown jewel, the world headquarters from Irving. ExxonMobil finally told everyone about the project but said that the headquarters would stay in Irving. _Huh?_ The more improbable that sounded, the more they stuck to the story. Finally, a top executive is said to have told Houston city leaders that "all options are on the table." To me, it's obvious - they just can't tell the people in Irving now and risk chaos, division, job losses and "taking sides." As the saying goes...when the time is right. A little like college football coaches are never leaving - ignore the rumors - until they announce they're leaving. The denials are shrugged off.
> 
> Yes, it's just 300-400 people in Irving. That's not the point at all. It's the prestige, the feather in the cap for Houston - and for Exxon! Think realistically, why would they consolidate office operations at this uber-luxurious new campus _and then leave the executive team in Irving?_ It would make no sense. ExxonMobil wants to be in these statement-making digs they're building as much as Houston city leaders do. When the new mega-campus is completed, why wouldn't ExxonMobil want their world headquarters in the energy capital of the world?
> 
> Your girlfriend may be right, Mike. As odd as that would be at a logical level, it's always possible. But, I'd wager hard cash. We'll see.


Yeah, you may be right as well.  She just feels like over the past several years that she's been with the company, the execs have created the idea that they want to stay isolated from operations.  Sort of to keep a prestige amongst the big dogs... that kind of mentality.  

Also note that after purchasing XTO Energy a couple of years ago, the company isn't planning to move any of the Fort Worth personnel to Houston.  And from what I understand, they're actually planning to relocate hundreds of Houston employees in US Production to Fort Worth.  So, I guess you never know what they might do until it actually happens.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> thank you, people need to learn to discuss topics in the appropriate thread...


FYI, I may have discussed the streetcar but my post was relevant to the actual topic.  Let me open another window and copy and paste what was relevant to it here:

"I've always thought two new highrises would be Mystery Tower X (International Company) and a two tenant tower (American Fidelity/Midfirst Bank type)."

----------


## Teo9969

> Here's how I would handicap all these possible projects:
> 
> 1. SandRidge Tower.  90% likelihood as they've gone on record several times.  I have the feeling they may not want to top their current tower, so best guest is 15 to 25 floors.
> 
> 2. Convention Center Hotel.  80% likelihood.  The big players and money really want this to happen but a big chunk of city funds will be needed.  Given the chosen location for the CC, it's going to have to go vertical:  20 to 30 floors.
> 
> 3. Mystery Tower.  60% likelihood.  Lots and lots of smoke around this from many reputable sources, although not specific announcement as of yet.  If it happens, it will probably be on the SW corner of Main & Hudson and everything points to 30 to 50 floors.
> 
> 4. Mystery Tower II.  30% likelihood.  Could be there are two new towers in the works, not just one.  But we don't have a site for this or anything specific.  Best guess would be 20 to 40 floors.
> ...



If 1-4 come to fruition, I'd rather see two 10 story condos than one 20 story.

----------


## OklahomaNick

Does anyone have the actual quote from Mark Beffort saying that a "tower" is going to be built?
I attended the CBRE Commercial Real Estate Forecast and all he told the group was that there was a "possibility" of a a large corporate re-location coming to OKC. No mention of that company officially coming, or who it was, or that they were going to build a tower downtown. 

When and where did he say an out of state company would build a tower downtown?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> When and where did he say an out of state company would build a tower downtown?


s-p-e-c-u-l-a-t-i-o-n

----------


## Bellaboo

> Does anyone have the actual quote from Mark Beffort saying that a "tower" is going to be built?
> I attended the CBRE Commercial Real Estate Forecast and all he told the group was that there was a "possibility" of a a large corporate re-location coming to OKC. No mention of that company officially coming, or who it was, or that they were going to build a tower downtown. 
> 
> When and where did he say an out of state company would build a tower downtown?


This thread, post # 21.....first DOK article, he said it would be built this year. No mention of where this company was coming from.

----------


## OklahomaNick

> This thread, post # 21.....first DOK article, he said it would be built this year. No mention of where this company was coming from.


Thanks Bellaboo.

My money is on a current OKC company

----------


## MDot

> My money is on a current OKC company


Same here.

----------


## G.Walker

Beffort stated in the article that "another new corporate headquarters will be built downtown, staring this year". So he didn't specifically say a skyscraper, he didn't say what company nor did he say where, but sources are saying Beffort's announcement is in connection with speculation of a possible new skyscraper. What would be nice is if there was no connection, and the rumors we have been hearing were for a another skyscraper, and what Beffort stated was brand new information....

----------


## MikeLucky

> I just don't know that I could call someone smart or educated who is not aware what states are part of the union.


Have you ever met an engineer? lol.  I can't tell you how many engineers I have met that are not only genius level intelligence but also have PhD's (so they are obviously smart AND educated) yet they don't know how to wash their dishes or comb their hair.  So, yes there plenty of people that are very smart and educated that are ridiculously ignorant about things that seem impossible for them to be ignorant about.




> Whether you know it or not, you just agreed 100% with what Rover said. He didn't call them unintelligent, by the way. He said they were ignorant.  You then went on to explain that they were ignorant and why.  The fact is, people are ignorant of Oklahoma (and of other states).  
> 
> Oklahoma has a reputation out there-- some think it's bad, some don't.  Either way, I think it's improving quite a bit.  The Thunder, Devon, and hopefully the new corporate HQ will help to continue the improvement.


Rover said he was fortunate to not have to work with "that clientele."  He was quite obviously casting an aspersion if not saying it outright...




> I will stand by my statements.  It is based on dealing daily with businesspeople from across the US, and indeed, around the world.  Does someone in hicksville New Jersey have a backward opinion of Oklahoma...sure some do.  Does someone in Yukon, OK have a backward opinion of Oklahoma...sure some do.  Do people in OKC have a caricature view of New Yorkers....you bet some do.  However, by in large, OKC is more respected by people making real business decisions than many Oklahomans want to believe.  It is easy to play the victim.  But, OKC has more going for it than many even here in OKC recognize.


It's great that most of the people you deal with are informed about things of this nature... but I can assure you it is FAR from the norm or the majority.... that was my point.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that we need to drop the "victim" mentality....  The way we as Oklahoman's can lose the victim mentality is to not let that ignorance bother us.  The more we laugh it off and handle it humbly, the more others become informed.  And of course, the more new development of this nature we keep getting here, the more it'll change perceptions...  (there, it's on topic now.  :Smile:  )

----------


## OKCRT

If this mystery tower being built this year is real then some bid request's should be coming out soon. Things should start leaking out soon....

----------


## Thundercitizen

Do we have a Commerce Business Daily scout?

----------


## Pete

One of the very first steps would be the Downtown Design Review Committee and a bunch of us monitor that.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> One of the very first steps would be the Downtown Design Review Committee and a bunch of us monitor that.


Keep on monitoring The Matrix, Pete.

----------


## holm1231

[QUOTE=FWIW, you have apparently been overlooking a crucial part of the quote from the Chamber of Commerce.  It is not the headquarters of an international company that is considering the move to OKC.  It is the North American headquarters of an international company.  Your Cemex thory does not fit so well under those circumstances.[/QUOTE]

Just to let you know, his theory would work, because Mexico is in North America.  North America doesn't mean USA.

----------


## metro

> Just to let you know, his theory would work, because Mexico is in North America.  North America doesn't mean USA.


See page 10, post 247.

----------


## MDot

> See page 10, post 237.


Post 247.

----------


## holm1231

> Just to let you know, his theory would work, because Mexico is in North America.  North America doesn't mean USA.


Please ignore!!

----------


## holm1231

Steve and Pete, would it be possible or even, more likely, that Beffort knows of companies coming to OKC, and he, himself and other investors, would build a high-rise/skyscraper with class A office space?  Instead of a company saying they are moving and are just going to wait 3 years for it to be built.  To me, it makes more since that someone like, Beffort, would be wanting to build a tower on his lot, so that the luring companies would want to move into his space!!

Just an Idea

----------


## lasomeday

> Steve and Pete, would it be possible or even, more likely, that Beffort knows of companies coming to OKC, and he, himself and other investors, would build a high-rise/skyscraper with class A office space?  Instead of a company saying they are moving and are just going to wait 3 years for it to be built.  To me, it makes more since that someone like, Beffort, would be wanting to build a tower on his lot, so that the luring companies would want to move into his space!!
> 
> Just an Idea


Beffort is not building anything.  He is just friends with the people in the "know".  

We probably won't know anything until some press conference and *BAM* they unveil a massive tower like they did with the Devon Tower.

----------


## G.Walker

> Steve and Pete, would it be possible or even, more likely, that Beffort knows of companies coming to OKC, and he, himself and other investors, would build a high-rise/skyscraper with class A office space?  Instead of a company saying they are moving and are just going to wait 3 years for it to be built.  To me, it makes more since that someone like, Beffort, would be wanting to build a tower on his lot, so that the luring companies would want to move into his space!!
> 
> Just an Idea


Hmmm. Never thought of it that way...sounds plausible

----------


## Pete

We had wind of Devon Tower about a year before it was officially announced.  We knew where it would be located, the approximate size and that it would be a tower, garden wing and rotunda.

We didn't know the specifics but when it was unveiled the information I and others had received was darn close to what was ultimately revealed.  It actually turned out to be taller and larger than we had thought, but otherwise we were pretty close.

This time around, we aren't sure who is behind this, so that is a pretty big difference.  But we are pretty sure about the location and approximate size and I bet both will be darn close to what actually happens.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'd take odds that we'll know something by June 1. Like Steve said, there's too much floating around about this.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> I'd take odds that we'll know something by June 1. Like Steve said, there's too much floating around about this.


Speaking of Steve...

Downtown Oklahoma City skyline is set for more growth

Heh, "mystery tower"... where'd he possibly get that term?

----------


## Steve

I'll be interesting in seeing if things play out as I think they will....

----------


## BDK

There you go again Steve.  :Wink:

----------


## G.Walker

Great solid article Steve,and after reading the article we got answers to some key questions, if all goes as planned we know it will be at least 40 stories, and that construction would begin this year. And the location has a good possiblity to be the Preftakes block.

----------


## Pete

Steve's mention of the proposed (and now on indefinite hold) Chamber HQ site at the SE corner of 4th and Broadway/EKG is an interesting idea.

It's a big chunk of completely empty grassland.  It's also a great location with close proximity to Bricktown, Auto Alley and the emerging residential neighborhood of Deep Deuce.

Interestingly that property is about 2/3rds owned by OPUBCO with the City owning the remainder.


It would be awesome to see a tower go up at Main & Hudson AND this site...  Would really stretch out the skyline.

----------


## dmoor82

This "mystery" tower will happen folks!I bet another nice sized scraper ontop of the mystery tower will also be announced by mid to late 2012,and other big announcments will come, that just a few years ago people would have laughed at!Mark my words,The economy is climbing and OKC has momentum and I believe We have only seen the very start of a possible Charlotte,Austin type boom,but maybe not as high population growths!Devon set the skyscraper bar high and The City of OKC was behind them 100%,any other company/investor that thought of moving or building in OKC has taken notice of what this city has been doing-OK river,MAPS,NBA etc.....!The city of OKC will bend over backwards to attract big comapanies to move here or developers to build here,and believe Me,those people are taking notice!I know I'm sounding like an OKC tourism commercial,but these things WILL happen!My prediction for the "mystery" tower-45 stories,730'ft tall,all glass w/LED capability,the tower will be 425-525 Million$!

----------


## Pete

I did want to point out one discrepancy in what Steve wrote and what Richard Mize originally reported.

From Mize's article, it could just a be a local company (i.e. American Fidelity or MidFirst) moving it's HQ downtown, which is quite different than a company relocating to OKC.

Steve:



> Mark Beffort, a major player in the downtown real estate game, got everyone talking this past week when he declared that, yes, there will be another office building built downtown as part of a yet *unidentified company moving its headquarters to Oklahoma City*.


Mize:



> Mark Beffort said *another new corporate headquarters will be built downtown* starting this year, but he didn’t say what company. He also said would-be tenants are vying for Devon Energy’s current space, but he didn’t say who.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Just to let you know, his theory would work, because Mexico is in North America.  North America doesn't mean USA.





> See page 10, post 247.



And more importantly, see the response to post 247, to-wit:  

"LOL. Yes, indeed, I do realize that Mexico is in North America. The Cemex HQ that MikeOKC and others are discussing moving to OKC from Monterrey, however, is not a North American HQ. It is a world corporate HQ, You do realize there is a difference between North America and the world, don't you? ;-)"

To clarify once again, the CoC rumor is that an international company is moving its North American headquarters to OKC.  The Cemex headquarters in Mexico City that is the object of some of the overheated speculation is not a North America. Headquarters.  It is a global, corporate headquarters.  That is not what the CoC has told us they are expecting.  

Further, the Cemex office in Houston is the U.S. headquarters for the company,  not a North American headquarters. 

Cemex is indeed an international company, but they do not currently have a North American headquarters, and the evidence suggests they are not about to create one in OKC.

----------


## MDot

> This "mystery" tower will happen folks!I bet another nice sized scraper ontop of the mystery tower will also be announced by mid to late 2012,and other big announcments will come, that just a few years ago people would have laughed at!Mark my words,The economy is climbing and OKC has momentum and I believe We have only seen the very start of a possible Charlotte,Austin type boom,but maybe not as high population growths!Devon set the skyscraper bar high and The City of OKC was behind them 100%,any other company/investor that thought of moving or building in OKC has taken notice of what this city has been doing-OK river,MAPS,NBA etc.....!The city of OKC will bend over backwards to attract big comapanies to move here or developers to build here,and believe Me,those people are taking notice!I know I'm sounding like an OKC tourism commercial,but these things WILL happen!My prediction for the "mystery" tower-45 stories,730'ft tall,all glass w/LED capability,the tower will be 425-525 Million$!


I really do love it when you post, dmoor.

----------


## pw405

Has anybody attempted to as Mark Beauffort any details?  Steve?

----------


## Steve

> I did want to point out one discrepancy in what Steve wrote and what Richard Mize originally reported.
> 
> From Mize's article, it could just a be a local company (i.e. American Fidelity or MidFirst) moving it's HQ downtown, which is quite different than a company relocating to OKC.
> 
> Steve:
> 
> 
> Mize:


Yep, makes a big difference when you leave out a single word (in this case "downtown"). Fix made. Thanks Pete. 
Yes, Beffort and I have talked. 
I'm going to suggest something I've hinted at ... I EMPHASIZE, I DO NOT KNOW THE FOLLOWING TO BE TRUE ... but.... I am wondering more and more if we're not looking at two buildings and not just one. I'll also add that I hear NOBODY talking about Cemex as one of the possible new additions to downtown other than folks on this board. I've heard, seen nothing to indicate it's Cemex.

----------


## dankrutka

This thread is out of control. It's pretty much the equivalent of a bunch of 13 year-old girls at a Justin Bieber concert. Lol.

----------


## lasomeday

I had started a post earlier, but stopped because I got carried away.  I did some research and Illinois is losing companies left and right.

John Deere and Caterpillar both are located in Illinois and would be more centrally located if they moved to Oklahoma.  

Caterpillar has made lots of PR announcements about moving.

----------


## MDot

> This thread is out of control. It's pretty much the equivalent of a bunch of 13 year-old girls at a Justin Bieber concert. Lol.


I am officially insulted. LOL

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> This thread is out of control. It's pretty much the equivalent of a bunch of 13 year-old girls at a Justin Bieber concert. Lol.


+1

----------


## NickFiggins

> I had started a post earlier, but stopped because I got carried away.  I did some research and Illinois is losing companies left and right.
> 
> John Deere and Caterpillar both are located in Illinois and would be more centrally located if they moved to Oklahoma.  
> 
> Caterpillar has made lots of PR announcements about moving.


No they have not read this OP-ED from CEO: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...,6505309.story

----------


## Just the facts

> No they have not read this OP-ED from CEO: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...,6505309.story


The CEO also said this:




> SPRINGFIELD — The chairman and CEO of Peoria-based Caterpillar Inc. is raising the specter of moving the heavy equipment maker out of Illinois.
> 
> In a letter sent March 21 to Gov. Pat Quinn, Caterpillar Chief Executive Officer Doug Oberhelman said officials in at least four other states have approached the company about relocating since Illinois raised its income tax in January.
> 
> “I want to stay here. But as the leader of this business, I have to do what’s right for Caterpillar when making decisions about where to invest,” Oberhelman wrote in the letter obtained Friday by the Herald & Review’s Springfield Bureau. “The direction that this state is headed in is not favorable to business, and I’d like to work with you to change that.”
> 
> Oberhelman said he’s being actively courted to move.
> 
> “I have been called, ‘cornered’ in meetings and ‘wined and dined’ — the heat is on,” Oberhelman wrote. “Before, I never really considered living anywhere else and certainly never considered the possibility of Caterpillar relocating. But I have to admit, the policymakers in Springfield seem to make it harder by the day.”
> ...


So he got his seat at the table - we'll see what he does with it.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Speaking of Steve...
> 
> Downtown Oklahoma City skyline is set for more growth
> 
> Heh, "mystery tower"... where'd he possibly get that term?


 Aww shucks, you're welcome.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...779#post506779




> So should we start a thread entitled "Mystery Tower", later to be renamed?

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I really do love it when you post, dmoor.


Agreed.  
Two of my favorite Tony-Robbins-disciple posters:

dmoor82
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...593#post508593

and 

Hot Rod
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...100#post502100

----------


## mrktguy29

> People scoffed when I drew the comparison to Charlotte of 15 years ago but I stand by it.  There is a lot to say about raising the bar and for momentum.
> 
> OKC currently has more going on it's downtown than all but a few of the biggest cities in the U.S.
> 
> I know there can be lots of complaining about the things done here and they way they are handled, but the bottom line is that things ARE getting done and it seems we are just getting started.


I have a friend via Facebook who lives in Charlotte and is always posting pictures of the skyline and commenting on how much her loves it. He has made comments about photos I have shared on FB from this site, I have friends from DFW, Denver, NYC and LA who have loved watching the Devon Tower go up. One guy from Denver was surprised we had skyscrapers - since he visited last he always comments on the latest photo I post of the progress.

----------


## HOT ROD

> I have a friend via Facebook who lives in Charlotte and is always posting pictures of the skyline and commenting on how much her loves it. He has made comments about photos I have shared on FB from this site, I have friends from DFW, Denver, NYC and LA who have loved watching the Devon Tower go up. One guy from Denver was surprised we had skyscrapers - since he visited last he always comments on the latest photo I post of the progress.


honestly, I think it is pretty stupid if somebody over the age of 16 that doesn't live under a rock, doesn't know OKC has skyscrapers. I mean, the city does have over 1.3m. .... Is Denver all that - that this person thinks it is the only city in this region with skyscapers not named Dallas or KC? 

Maybe this proves that people in the USA need to get out or at least turn on the freaking TV and see the OKC skyline during NBA games. ...

----------


## Bellaboo

Just throwing this out there.......... the Gaylord family sold out and more than likely are setting on more cash than we could imagine. Is it possible they are involved ? Maybe a spec tower ?  At one time, they owned the Oklahoma Tower.

Just a thought to add to the hysteria.

----------


## lasomeday

> Just throwing this out there.......... the Gaylord family sold out and more than likely are setting on more cash than we could imagine. Is it possible they are involved ? Maybe a spec tower ?  At one time, they owned the Oklahoma Tower.
> 
> Just a thought to add to the hysteria.


They still have offices in the Oklahoma Tower.  

I like Steve's idea of having a skyscraper at 4th and Gaylord....what what....  A Gaylord skyscraper at the end of Gaylord Blvd?

----------


## G.Walker

If construction starts on the new skyscraper this year, we should get an official announcement soon. Especially if the new skyscraper is going on the Preftakes block, they would need to get something in front of the DDRC soon for demolition of buildings, and then get final approval from City council, this process could take a few months. Then the demolition of the buildings could take a few months. So at best, we could see construction starting in the Fall.

----------


## lasomeday

How long did it take for the Devon approval process to happen before their construction started?

----------


## bombermwc

I just hope that we don't get made a joke of again. Time and time we are used as a pawn for a company to get a deal from their current city. Sports franchises did it, other companies have done it....it sure would suck to have it be of the cailber of a skyscraper.

----------


## G.Walker

> How long did it take for the Devon approval process to happen before their construction started?


I am not sure about the approval process but the official announcement about Devon Tower was in March of 2008, the Devon Energy press conference releasing renderings was 5 months later in August of 2008, and groundbreaking ceremony was over a year later in October of 2009.

----------


## lasomeday

> I just hope that we don't get made a joke of again. Time and time we are used as a pawn for a company to get a deal from their current city. Sports franchises did it, other companies have done it....it sure would suck to have it be of the cailber of a skyscraper.


Why are you such a negative Nellie!

If we do, then something better will become of it.  Look what happened when United Airlines Maintence Center said, "no thank you OKC". We are going to Indianapolis.  We voted MAPS I to improve the quality of life in OKC.  That was the best thing that ever happened to us. Later United Airlines closed the Maintenance center, but we still have MAPS.  And we have the Thunder, which is 10 times better than any NHL team in my opinion!


So, if a company turns us down and the Chamber/State learn from what happened then I am OK with it.

----------


## G.Walker

As for the company, have we forgot about Boeing? They are an international company, and they have strong presence in Oklahoma City. Moreover, they have a good relationship with City leaders and the Chamber. With that being said, there still has been no announcement of where they will house the 1,000 jobs coming here. I can easily seem them relocating their North American headquarters from Chicago to Oklahoma City. Governor Fallin recently restored the Aerospace Industry Engineer Workforce Tax Credit for Oklahoma.

----------


## lasomeday

Boeing just moved to Chicago.  I don't see them making a move anytime soon.  Well not until the President is not from Chicago.

----------


## plmccordj

Since the process took over a year last time and there is no reason to think it would be any different this time, wouldn't this mystery company already have submitted the necessary documents to city officials to start this year?  If I am not mistaken, city meetings are open for public review and somewhere there would be a record of this meeting or two taking place in the past.  If these have not happened, then it is hard to believe that construction would start this year.

What do you think?

----------


## G.Walker

> Boeing just moved to Chicago.  I don't see them making a move anytime soon.  Well not until the President is not from Chicago.


Just moved? lol...I don't consider 11 years as just moved...they have been in Chicago since 2001, then you add another 2 years for construction, and another 1 year for employee transition, you are looking at 14 years.

----------


## G.Walker

> Since the process took over a year last time and there is no reason to think it would be any different this time, wouldn't this mystery company already have submitted the necessary documents to city officials to start this year?  If I am not mistaken, city meetings are open for public review and somewhere there would be a record of this meeting or two taking place in the past.  If these have not happened, then it is hard to believe that construction would start this year.
> 
> What do you think?


Every company is different, and Devon Tower was a totally different animal. This new skyscraper has probably been in the works for years, and its just now starting to come to fruition. As long as it has support from the City, it wouldn't take long to get the ball rolling. But if it meets some resistance, then it could be a while.

----------


## Pete

> Since the process took over a year last time and there is no reason to think it would be any different this time, wouldn't this mystery company already have submitted the necessary documents to city officials to start this year? If I am not mistaken, city meetings are open for public review and somewhere there would be a record of this meeting or two taking place in the past. If these have not happened, then it is hard to believe that construction would start this year.


With Devon, nothing was made public until after the press conference when they unveiled the tower.

It still had lots of necessary steps to go through, but they had their act together and those things happened pretty quickly.

----------


## king183

I can understand why Steve thinks it might be a possibility that two buildings will go up, one on the Preftakes block and one at the Chamber grass site.  We've heard for a long time that Devon was taking particular interest in the Preftakes block due to its proximity to their new HQ, so it's entirely possible that they, Devon, not another corporation, plans on building something there that will benefit their employees (perhaps residential) or as a tower for businesses they want to come OKC and work with closely.  

That would mean the new corporate HQ could go on the Chamber's land.  It's easily attainable from the Chamber, very little demolition is required, there's room there for a parking garage, and it's close to a ton of amenities for employees (restaurants, YMCA, apartments, condos, townhouses, etc). If a new, large HQ is built there, I wonder if the Skirvin would want to move forward on building a second hotel tower.

With that said, I haven't heard that the Chamber is no longer interested in building their HQ there, so, of course, that's pure speculation.

----------


## lasomeday

> I can understand why Steve thinks it might be a possibility that two buildings will go up, one on the Preftakes block and one at the Chamber grass site.


I really like the grass site.  The odd shape could inspire a unique design for the building.  It would be pretty cool to have a triangle shaped base that was somehow construed to the top with some sort of twisting or curving design in glass.

----------


## Just the facts

> With Devon, nothing was made public until after the press conference when they unveiled the tower.
> 
> It still had lots of necessary steps to go through, but they had their act together and those things happened pretty quickly.


And the only reason that press conference had to occur is because it was being built on land put out for bid by OCURA.  Devon was the only bidder if I recall.

----------


## SharkSandwich

Yes, this is a bit Ferris Bueller at 31 flavors, but my boss is VERY plugged in to the energy industry.  Right now, a prominent energy services group based in Midland who has a small presence (15-20 employees) in OKC is looking to move their current OKC office.  They are considering Gallardia or the outskirts of downtown.  He said that there is a lot of pressure for this office to move downtown because of the presence of DVN, CLR and SD.  But he went on to say that company reps mentioned a strong possibility of another sizable energy company locating downtown in the near future.

I'm not sure this really adds much to this thread.  I just thought it was interesting considering my boss does not dabble in downtown development rumors/speculation.  He was the last guy I expected to hear mention a rumor of a new, sizable downtown energy tenant.  

Just some more specualtion for the fire.

----------


## plmccordj

Pete,
Maybe I am missing what you are saying or you are misunderstanding what I am asking.  You said that with Devon nothing was made public until after the press conference when they unveiled the tower but yet it took more than a year after they went public before they started building.  It seemed that you were implying that a lot of work had already been done behind the scene but it still took over a year after the press conference.  Am I missing something?
With this new mystery tower people are talking about it starting construction this year when this company has not even acknowledged that a tower will be built at all.  My point is that if it is going to start construction THIS year, something must have been going on behind the scene.  It is difficult for me to see all this planning, obtaining city approval, engineering, logistics planning etc could be going on without a single meeting with city officials.
I am just wondering if it is even possible to be this far along in the process without having obtained some sort of consultation, approval of some sort with the city council or committee.  If this is true, then maybe these records can be found.
I am not disagreeing that something is going on, just wondering if there may be a record of it.

----------


## SharkSandwich

According to a video I have seen narrated by Larry Nichols, the decision to build the Devon Tower was made in 2006 and the official announcement was made in 2008.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Pete,
> Maybe I am missing what you are saying or you are misunderstanding what I am asking.  You said that with Devon “nothing was made public until after the press conference when they unveiled the tower” but yet it took more than a year after they went public before they started building.  It seemed that you were implying that a lot of work had already been done behind the scene but it still took over a year after the press conference.  Am I missing something?
> With this new “mystery tower” people are talking about it starting construction this year when this company has not even acknowledged that a tower will be built at all.  My point is that if it is going to start construction THIS year, something must have been going on behind the scene.  It is difficult for me to see all this planning, obtaining city approval, engineering, logistics planning etc could be going on without a single meeting with city officials.
> I am just wondering if it is even possible to be this far along in the process without having obtained some sort of consultation, approval of some sort with the city council or committee.  If this is true, then maybe these records can be found.
> I am not disagreeing that something is going on, just wondering if there may be a record of it.


if this is to be built on a private owed site in the CBD   the only approval it would require is the demo permits for the existing buildings .. and DDR to ok the "look" of the building ....   and those things would not take much time

----------


## Pete

Fair points!

The Devon unveiling was 8/20/08 and ground breaking wasn't until October 2009.

----------


## catch22

Yes if the land is privately owned you could do all of the site engineering, planning, etc. without having to even speak to the city until you are ready to demolish buildings or start construction, and obtain permits to do so. And given the opportunity of a new tower, obtaining approval, would be more of a administrative paperwork function to make it "legal" -- I doubt any of the city departments would kill a new tower.

----------


## Pete

If someone was looking to demolish historical buildings, you can bet they'd have their act together and ready to go before trying to get approvals.

But remember, when Devon made their announcement they have very detailed plans already in place; they even provided cutaway drawings of the tower, floorplans, etc.  Pickard Chilton had already done the design, they had hired a contractor and landscape architect, etc.  And it still took them over a year to break ground.

----------


## catch22

> If someone was looking to demolish historical buildings, you can bet they'd have their act together and ready to go before trying to get approvals.
> 
> But remember, when Devon made their announcement they have very detailed plans already in place; they even provided cutaway drawings of the tower, floorplans, etc.  Pickard Chilton had already done the design, they had hired a contractor and landscape architect, etc.  And it still took them over a year to break ground.


That is true...perhaps the land was caught in the middle of the OCURA/OKC paperwork jungle? Or did Devon already purchase the land and have it in title when they revealed their announcement? In other words did they unveil their full design before securing the ground space?

----------


## Pete

The OCURA part went very quickly.

Remember, they took a bunch of time to fully program their space and decided to locate their data center and records storage near the airport, and they ultimately reduced the height of both the tower and garden wing as a result.

----------


## G.Walker

We shouldn't compare the Devon Tower construction timeline to this mystery tower. Devon Tower is a larger project, more expensive, and originated from a different economic standpoint. We don't know what has been going on behind the scenes, so we shouldn't base future skyscraper developments against the Devon Tower development. Every company is different with different issues.

----------


## catch22

Considering we have nothing else to really go by....I think we'll be okay.

----------


## Teo9969

I wouldn't think anyone here would be disappointed if the plans were announced this year and the building started on 2013...As long as the building indeed starts in 2013, and the final product is relatively close to the renderings/specifications originally released.

----------


## Steve

Flashback (written before any of these deals took place):

Who will take over Kerr-McGee office space?
Multiple sources confirm deals are in the works

By Steve Lackmeyer
Business Writer
Friday, July 6, 2007
Edition: CITY, Section: BUSINESS, Page 1B 	
ANALYSIS

One year after Kerr-McGee Corp. was acquired by Houston-based Anadarko Petroleum, its downtown Oklahoma City campus is empty, its fate still unknown.

But a deal could be announced soon that is expected to trigger the potential development of three new downtown headquarters for SandRidge Energy, Devon Energy Corp. and American Fidelity Assurance Co.

The official stance from Anadarko Petroleum is that there are no pending buyers for the now-empty, former Kerr-McGee headquarters at 123 Robert S Kerr Ave. and that the property remains for sale.

But multiple sources confirm a deal is imminent that would allow SandRidge Energy to move from its temporary digs at 1601 Northwest Expressway into the 30-story McGee Tower.

From the moment Tom Ward bought Riata Energy and moved it from Amarillo to Oklahoma City, the renamed company has made its intentions clear to grow and find a permanent home either downtown or in a suburban campus setting.

In March, the company reported employing 1,600, including more than 200 at its headquarters. A move by SandRidge to McGee Tower would be a welcome relief among downtowners who still are struggling with an office vacancy rate that hasn't dipped below 25 percent in almost two decades.

But the stakes on this deal go beyond McGee Tower.

With the sale of Kerr-McGee last year, Devon Energy became downtown's undisputed leading corporate resident. The company is spread out among four downtown buildings, including Mid-America Tower and Chase Tower, and rumors have persisted for the past few years that the company might build a new downtown office tower to consolidate its operations.

Human relations consultant Jim Farris said a company can benefit from having a highly visible headquarters. He recalled his days at Wachovia Financial when the company's 30-story tower in Winston-Salem, N.C., became the tallest in that city when it opened in 1995.

"You could see that building for miles," Farris said. "And that helped in recruiting employees, especially in a smaller town like that. It's always nice when you drive into major cities, and you see 'XYZ Company' on it, and you know that's their building."

Office vacancy

Devon Chief Executive Officer Larry Nichols has been tight-lipped about any possible move, but when Kerr-McGee's fate became known last year, Nichols dismissed a move to McGee Tower saying it's too small to be considered for a new Devon headquarters.

Some who know Nichols privately say he is reluctant to build a new headquarters if it would further weaken the downtown office market.

The loss of Devon from its existing space would be noticeable.

The company employs 1,200 people spread out in three buildings: 14 floors of Mid-America Tower, 16 floors of the 34-story Chase Tower and five floors at the 14-story Corporate Tower. The company also leases two floors at First National Center that are used for files and storage.

But the market has improved in recent months, and Brett Hamm, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., said 60 percent of downtown's 25 percent vacancy consists of Class C space that needs to either be renovated or converted into housing or other uses.

Hamm concludes the downtown Class A and Class B office spaces are in good shape compared to the rest of the city.

A source involved in a potential Devon Tower project has told The Oklahoman that Nichols is preparing to move ahead with construction but is awaiting a resolution to McGee Tower.

"That's crucial," said Tim Strange, a commercial real estate agent with Sperry Van Ness, who is among those keeping a close eye on the market. "We need to fill up that building, and we need to fill up First National. You've got 450,000 square feet empty at Kerr-McGee, and 350,000 square feet at First National."

Strange said even with a potential move by SandRidge into McGee Tower, a new Devon Tower would leave downtown with one block of empty space replacing another.

"The chamber (of commerce) says large prospects are out there," Strange said. "They've shown us the numbers, and I agree they are out there. But the challenge has been for us to provide large blocks of continuous space."

American Fidelity

A more immediate prospect may be the final key.

Nichols, whose commitment to downtown includes serving as chairman of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber and as an Urban Renewal commissioner, and who is involved in numerous civic sponsorships, may be further reassured about maintaining a stable office market by the prospect of American Fidelity Assurance Co. being the third domino to fall in this scenario.

American Fidelity employs 1,500, including 1,000 at its Oklahoma City headquarters at NW 20 and Classen Boulevard. The company previously acknowledged an interest in buying McGee Tower. Or it could consider moving into Devon's current space, or build a downtown headquarters, as well.

Strange points out a Devon Tower, once announced, would take at least two years to come to fruition. A scenario that brings both SandRidge and American Fidelity to downtown, with Devon building a new tower, has Strange wondering whether such momentum could attract other companies downtown to take up any remaining space.

"That will have people talking," Strange said. "But in the overall scheme, if they do it, if Devon builds a new tower, are we better off? I don't know. But if SandRidge comes in, yes, absolutely, we're better off."

City hall

Add one more element into this entire scenario: city hall in recent months has been very aggressive in promoting downtown office space, agreeing to parking subsidies to convince two companies to move into downtown office space. Its most recent deal resulted in Simons Petroleum moving its 150-employees from suburban offices to space last occupied by the NBA Hornets at downtown's Oklahoma Tower.

Pending lawsuit

So what's the hold-up on all these deals?

Part of the former Kerr-McGee downtown campus is clouded by a lawsuit that has waged this past year between Anadarko Petroleum and partners in the failed Braniff Towers development. The project, which Kerr-McGee announced two years ago, called for renovation of three empty buildings on the campus, including the former headquarters of Braniff Airlines, into housing.

The trial was to begin in April but was pushed back to Sept. 11 following the case's reassignment to a new judge.

The lawsuit, filed last July by Corporate Redevelopment Group LLC, seeks $8 million in damages alleging Kerr-McGee and Anadarko violated terms of the development deal.

Those watching the case closely include Hamm, who previously urged both sides to settle the case quickly to avoid adding about 500,000 square feet to downtown's vacancy rate.

"I am very disappointed as it's important to resolve this case in the most expeditious manner as possible," Hamm said. "I am hopeful that interested buyers are not dissuaded by this delay in the process and that we are able to ensure progress regarding a permanent tenant for the Kerr-McGee building."

----------


## kevinpate

I wouldn't be disappointed if it dinna begin until 2015 or later.  I'm slowly learning patience.  It's starting to be less irritating than it used to be.

----------


## G.Walker

So Steve, when could we "expect" an official announcement?

----------


## Bellaboo

This kind of puts American Fidelity back into the picture. IMO

----------


## king183

So signs seem to point to American Fidelity.

----------


## BoulderSooner

that was from 2007

----------


## Skyline

> This kind of puts American Fidelity back into the picture. IMO





> So signs seem to point to American Fidelity.


That is the way I am reading this too, 2 of the 3 mentioned, have made their move. 

Steve may be trying to tell us something without actually saying anything. Although this doesn't answer the question of "Out of State, International, World, North American" (take your pick), etc, ... corporate Justin Beiber crazed fan HQ's that is also being brought up.

----------


## Pete

But it does illustrate that American Fidelity has been interested in a downtown HQ for some time.

----------


## G.Walker

I am beginning to realize there might be two skyscrapers going up, one from local company, and the other from an out of state company. With one that Steve mentioned in his article, that has gained the most ground and getting close to announcement.

----------


## Richard at Remax

It is not american fidelity. My aunt who is a higher up told me last week that they have been begged to come to downtown for the past year or so, but want to stay put. of course anything can happen

----------


## SharkSandwich

I feel like a mule, with Steve on my back dangling a carrot on a string in front of my nose!

----------


## G.Walker

> I feel like a mule, with Steve on my back dangling a carrot on a string in front of my nose!


 :Kicking:

----------


## GaryOKC6

There are two companies that have OKC on their short list and are suposed to announce a decision with in the next 30 days.  At this point, it is likely they will chose OKC.

----------


## ChaseDweller

A few posts back, there was some speculation about some tenant taking Devon's space.  Just FYI, we have been told by Chase Tower management that the building is fully leased, even after Devon leaves.  Much of that space is being taken by Continental Resources, but there are other tenants as well.  I'm hearing Continental is out of space already and may be thinking of building its own tower and selling the old Devon building when it is done.  The "grassy knoll" former chamber site would be perfect.

CD

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> It is not american fidelity. My aunt who is a higher up told me last week that they have been begged to come to downtown for the past year or so, but want to stay put. of course anything can happen


FYI, aunts have been known to lie.

I said it before and I'll say it again... my prediction is for a two tenant tower. AF/Midfirst sounds good!

----------


## Pete

> A few posts back, there was some speculation about some tenant taking Devon's space.  Just FYI, we have been told by Chase Tower management that the building is fully leased, even after Devon leaves.  Much of that space is being taken by Continental Resources, but there are other tenants as well.  I'm hearing Continental is out of space already and may be thinking of building its own tower and selling the old Devon building when it is done.  The "grassy knoll" former chamber site would be perfect.


This would not surprise me, as Devon's old building isn't that big and CLR has very ambitious growth plans.

The building they are buying is considerably smaller than SandRidge Tower, and SR is not only taking all of that space, but the Braniff Building, a new amenities building and will be constructing a new tower as well.

----------


## Steve

Worthy Cook, your aunt probably has not been privy to some discussions....

----------


## Pete

> There are two companies that have OKC on their short list and are suposed to announce a decision with in the next 30 days.  At this point, it is likely they will chose OKC.


There have been lots of rumors about a large company moving to OKC and that the Chamber was hoping to announce the specifics in the 1st quarter of this year.

----------


## G.Walker

My prediction CLR builds skyscraper on the Gaylord Blvd. site, and Boeing builds skyscraper on Preftakes block.

----------


## Richard at Remax

> Worthy Cook, your aunt probably has not been privy to some discussions....


Fine by me, Id love for her to be wrong

----------


## G.Walker

Getting an official announcement in the next couple months would be nice....

----------


## jedicurt

is Continental Resources that large?  last market analysis i saw for them still had them listed as having fewer than 500 total employees, and last march only about 250 were told that they would be moving to OKC... the 307,000 sq ft of the old "Devon" Building seems more than able to handle that load.   and as for the comparison to SandRidge filling a much larger building, they have some 2,200 employees (yes i know not all of these are office employee's) so one would think that a company almost 5 Times as large as Continental would easily fill a building that is less than twice as big (SandRidge 490,000 sq ft)

----------


## OklahomaNick

> My prediction CLR builds skyscraper on the Gaylord Blvd. site, and Boeing builds skyscraper on Preftakes block.


Boeing is NOT building downtown.
They have plenty of room to expand out where they are and they want to be close to their customer; Tinker Air Force Base!

----------


## Pete

Good points, jedicurt.

About a year ago Hamm said their plans were to triple their workforce in five years.  They are probably well on their way to making that happen.

Also, remember that there is a large law tenant in the old Devon building, so CLR will only have about 200,000 square feet to work with and that would not be enough for 750 employees, let alone growth beyond the five-year term.

As we've seen, it takes about four years for a building to go from announcement to occupancy.  Part of their plan could be to build a large structure then grow into it, leasing out space until they need it.


Just speculation, but some things to consider.

----------


## Bellaboo

> is Continental Resources that large?  last market analysis i saw for them still had them listed as having fewer than 500 total employees, and last march only about 250 were told that they would be moving to OKC... the 307,000 sq ft of the old "Devon" Building seems more than able to handle that load.   and as for the comparison to SandRidge filling a much larger building, they have some 2,200 employees (yes i know not all of these are office employee's) so one would think that a company almost 5 Times as large as Continental would easily fill a building that is less than twice as big (SandRidge 490,000 sq ft)


CLR said their ambition was to triple in just a few years. Which would put them around 750 - 800.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> There are two companies that have OKC on their short list and are suposed to announce a decision with in the next 30 days.  At this point, it is likely they will chose OKC.


this will be huge news ..... what size companys are we talking about??

----------


## Steve

Guys, I want to throw some caution out now. What I'm hearing from my sources is that planning is underway for a new building and that a new headquarters is coming to downtown Oklahoma City. I also want to point out, however, that we are in a very turbulent economy. It's just as possible that nothing will happen.

----------


## G.Walker

When can we expect an official announcement?

----------


## Pete

> I'm hearing from my sources is that planning is underway for a new building and that a new headquarters is coming to downtown Oklahoma City.


Meaning TWO different new buildings?


And of course, even after things are officially announced they can die or go on indefinite hold.

----------


## jedicurt

> Good points, jedicurt.
> 
> About a year ago Hamm said their plans were to triple their workforce in five years.  They are probably well on their way to making that happen.
> 
> Also, remember that there is a large law tenant in the old Devon building, so CLR will only have about 200,000 square feet to work with and that would not be enough for 750 employees, let alone growth beyond the five-year term.
> 
> As we've seen, it takes about four years for a building to go from announcement to occupancy.  Part of their plan could be to build a large structure then grow into it, leasing out space until they need it.
> 
> 
> Just speculation, but some things to consider.



ok... that makes more sense then.  I was just trying to figure out the speculation as to why people thought that, and if they really do plan to triple their size in 5 years, then i guess now would be the time to start considering a much larger building...

----------


## dankrutka

> Guys, I want to throw some caution out now. What I'm hearing from my sources is that planning is underway for a new building and that a new headquarters is coming to downtown Oklahoma City. I also want to point out, however, that we are in a very turbulent economy. It's just as possible that nothing will happen.


This whole thread seems to assume that these projects are happening. While speculation is fun, deals fall apart all the time. It's just good to keep perspective so G.Walker doesn't have a mental breakdown if none of this happens.

----------


## okcpulse

> Guys, I want to throw some caution out now. What I'm hearing from my sources is that planning is underway for a new building and that a new headquarters is coming to downtown Oklahoma City. I also want to point out, however, that we are in a very turbulent economy. It's just as possible that nothing will happen.


This is news I have taken cautiously from the get-go.  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.  However, I do wonder if it is possible that BHP Billiton is interested in Oklahoma City?

----------


## Oil Capital

> This is news I have taken cautiously from the get-go.  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.  However, I do wonder if it is possible that BHP Billiton is interested in Oklahoma City?


Any particular reason to wonder about BHP Billiton?

----------


## G.Walker

It is good to keep things in perspective, and face reality. Its good to know that downtown Oklahoma City is even being considered for more skyscrapers, nonetheless we got Devon Tower. Let's hope for the best! Even if we just get one more, that would be great!

----------


## TStheThird

Continental Resources has a market cap of 14.58 Billion vs Sandridge with a market cap of 3.14 Billion (CHK 14.49B, DVN 26.9B). Upon moving to OKC, Continental will not have much trouble growing their workforce.

----------


## lasomeday

> Continental Resources has a market cap of 14.58 Billion vs Sandridge with a market cap of 3.14 Billion (CHK 14.49B, DVN 26.9B). Upon moving to OKC, Continental will not have much trouble growing their workforce.


Yeah, CLR did all of their growth with the drill bit while Devon and Chesapeake had some major acquisitions. 

I still don't see them building or announcing anything this year.  Maybe next or in 2014. I know people there that know people.

----------


## TStheThird

I would agree. I was more referencing the idea that it would be "hard" for them to grow to 750 employees... not so much a new tower.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I honestly think we won't see any announcements until December 22...just to verify that the world will go on.

----------


## G.Walker

> I honestly think we won't see any announcements until December 22...just to verify that the world will go on.


Really? Lol we will have announcement soon!

----------


## okcpulse

> Any particular reason to wonder about BHP Billiton?


Just a wild guess

----------


## knightrider

http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-...lick=columnist

Things are looking good.  I like how he referenced this thread in his article.

----------


## knightrider

Not sure where this goes but I thought I'd throw it out there.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8DEFN920120214

----------


## soonermike81

> Any particular reason to wonder about BHP Billiton?


Last year, they purchased all of Chesapeake's Fayetteville shale assets. And they just finalized the acquisition of Petrohawk, who drills in Texas and NW Louisiana. An Oklahoma City office would make sense if they didn't already have their US HQ in Houston.

----------


## stjohn

> No they have not read this OP-ED from CEO: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...,6505309.story


In regards to Caterpillar, to me, this is all posturing and is probably a better sign that they're leaving than that they're staying.  Sort of a "Yeah don't hate us Illinois, we really tried to stay, but Springfield politicians...", IMO.

Something energy would be the obvious choice, but wouldn't Caterpillar make a lot of sense too?

----------


## knightrider

Has anyone thought about Trans-Canada Corporation building a US HQ in downtown?  They are highly involved in the Keystone XL pipeline and John Richels, current President and CEO of Devon used to be the Pres/CEO of Devon Canada.  There could be some major connections there.  To me this would make sense.

----------


## PhiAlpha

This may not mean anything for OKC other than an international company owning part of a local oil company, but can add fuel to the fire.

Need an international company with very little presence in N. America that is interested in investing in exploration and production and possibly OKC... Cue this:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2012...energy-yonhap/

Search SK Energy and read about them.

----------


## mmonroe

No mention of OKC in that article... hmm.

----------


## lasomeday

So, it sounds like the Mystery Tower may be built with local money (Gaylords or other investors) to house a company or two looking to come to OKC.  Or would the city/state provide incentives to move people and then TIF funding for the construction of parking structures or the building?  

I still feel that a local company could be looking at building downtown.  I think Midfirst could do it as well as American Fidelity.  Both would have better presence and free advertising for building a tower.  

Midfirst is a bank/(mortgage giant), and having a tower would remind people it is a local bank unlike Bank of America.  People would also see that they are investing in OKC.

American Fidelity could gain market share by having a tower that brings more attention to the great local company.  I personally don't know much about why they do or what services they provide.  I just know they do insurance?

Also, there are two locations (Preftakes possibly having two sites) mentioned in Steve's article.  Could the Century Center Parking garage be a third.  That spot is perfect for a high rise.  I would love to see a residential tower go there, but would be happy to see a tower other than that parking garage!

It does sound like at least one of the two company's they are courting is an oil and gas company.  I think this would be great!  I would love to see some diversification downtown, but having more oil and gas companies downtown creates more opporutunities for that industry.  It would mean that people would move here for jobs instead of Houston.  We would be the family friendly version of Houston (insane commutes not good for family time).   This would also create more smaller companies wanting to open offices or move offices to OKC...downtown!  I know people are making comparisons to Charlotte, but Denver would be another dream city to compare us too. They have hit a size where new buildings just pop up every few years and people yawn because it just happens in a big city!

----------


## lasomeday

> No mention of OKC in that article... hmm.


Ah, Chaparral is in OKC.  No need to mention it.

----------


## edcrunk

Lol 


> i honestly think we won't see any announcements until december 22...just to verify that the world will go on.

----------


## Teo9969

> This may not mean anything for OKC other than an international company owning part of a local oil company, but can add fuel to the fire.
> 
> Need an international company with very little presence in N. America that is interested in investing in exploration and production and possibly OKC... Cue this:
> 
> http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2012...energy-yonhap/
> 
> Search SK Energy and read about them.


I served dinner during that business meeting...

We should know in the next month, I do believe.

----------


## plmccordj

> Maybe Oklahoman's are not yet ready for it, but I think it would be awesome to see Korean on the side of a skyscraper.  What a statement that would make!


That would be cool. I really hope these rumors end up being true.  The scary part is that we have seen out of state companies take over local companies and they take the local company with them sort of like Anadarko and Kerr McGee.  I hope that doesn't happen.

----------


## Teo9969

> That would be cool. I really hope these rumors end up being true.  The scary part is that we have seen out of state companies take over local companies and they take the local company with them sort of like Anadarko and Kerr McGee.  I hope that doesn't happen.


While I don't know a whole lot about business...that would seem to be counterproductive in this situation. The point of an international company buying out a company in another country is so that they can have more presence in said country. If SK were to remove Chaparral over to South Korea, then they would no longer have that presence. Now if SK is buying multiple US companies and consolidates them all into one place, then that could be bad for OKC, or it could be a home-run for OKC if those companies are consolidated here.

----------


## plmccordj

> While I don't know a whole lot about business...that would seem to be counterproductive in this situation. The point of an international company buying out a company in another country is so that they can have more presence in said country. If SK were to remove Chaparral over to South Korea, then they would no longer have that presence. Now if SK is buying multiple US companies and consolidates them all into one place, then that could be bad for OKC, or it could be a home-run for OKC if those companies are consolidated here.


You make a good point.  I guess if they were being purchased by a company in Houston then we would have something to worry about.

----------


## Teo9969

Also, Even if the SK thing happens, I have heard nothing about whether or not they would be building a tower over here, so that may have zero to do with anything we've heard pertaining to the thread.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Also, Even if the SK thing happens, I have heard nothing about whether or not they would be building a tower over here, so that may have zero to do with anything we've heard pertaining to the thread.


Yeah, I don't think they will. Chaparral has an expanding campus around britton and 235 so it probably isn't likely that they would build a tower even if the deal closes. I posted that as speculation more about an international company adding a north America HQ in OKC more than anything but you never know. It's just one more thing that shows what a good position OKC is in.

----------


## architect5311

I've heard could be a Chinese Company may be involved and potential site close to Devon site perhaps Preftakes, aka Devon.....?

----------


## Patrick

Guys, guys, guys.  You're thinking way too hard.  I mean really, mentioning international companies building skyscrapers as headquarters in downtown OKC?  Nada.  

There is one tower for sure, and possibly another.  One being American Fidelity, which has made it clear to their shareholders that they're moving to downtown OKC from their current headquarters (if the economy continues to do well).  The second being Midfirst Bank, which is a growing bank that has well outgrown their headquarters building on Grand Blvd, and Chesapeake has already offered to buy from them.  Not sure which one will be the 40 story tower, but my guess would be American Fidelity.   I could see Midfirst building a 20-30 story tower.

----------


## metro

Here a better idea - cool the speculation rumors and have patience!

----------


## Rover

> Here a better idea - cool the speculation rumors and have patience!


Why?  It is way fun to speculate on this and a way to show our extreme confidence as OKC as a business magnet.  It is good to speculate about gaining a company rather than who we might lose.

----------


## Kokopelli

During the Fox post game show for the Thunder game last night you could see in the background behind the announcers  a group of Asians, most dressed in blue,  taking pictures on the court. Made me wonder if it was a tourist group or perhaps a business group.

----------


## knightrider

What about Trans Canada Corporation?  The current President and CEO of Devon, John Richels, used to be the President/CEO of Devon Canada Corporation  could be a connection there.  Trans Canada is the biggest player in the Keystone Pipeline that will be running through Cushing.  Trans Canada's market Cap is double that of Chesapeake.  I know they are in North America but they do not have a US HQ.  Devon could have some major connections there and be trying to recruit them to build a US HQ in DT OKC.  Devon also has Canada operations in and around the same locations that Trans Canada does.  This is speculation but would be a great addition to OKC.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I served dinner during that business meeting...
> 
> We should know in the next month, I do believe.





> Here a better idea - cool the speculation rumors and have patience!


Note the title of the thread. It's purpose is news, ideas, and speculation, so posting that we should quit speculating on a thread dedicated to just that is pointless...

----------


## Oil Capital

> During the Fox post game show for the Thunder game last night you could see in the background behind the announcers  a group of Asians, most dressed in blue,  taking pictures on the court. Made me wonder if it was a tourist group or perhaps a business group.


Some of these speculations are reminding me of the breathless pronouncements we enjoyed a couple years ago someone's sister's brother's babysitter's mother had seen the board of directors and senior management in town, and therefore Hertz must be moving their headquarters to OKC.  ;-)

----------


## Rover

Except this time reliable resources seem to be strongly indicating the reality of the possibility (or probability).  All we are doing is having fun speculating on the who.  I do think it is interesting how many reasonable targets there are.   Especially for the companies that could make a case for moving here.  A few years ago there wasn't much reason to believe any would move in and lots of reasons to suspect who might move out.

----------


## Pete

Yes, speculation is fun and interesting, hence the great popularity of this thread.


And I will never, ever forget how this contrasts with the late 80's.  I wish I would have kept it but the Gazette ran a little cartoon circa 1988 that said, "What do you say about a town when the only construction downtown is a new jail?"  It still makes my stomach hurt a little to think about that.

At that time, people would have been excited about even one of the small renovation projects in AA or Midtown.  Now, those barely get a mention because there are huge things happening (and on the verge of happening) everywhere.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Yes, speculation is fun and interesting, hence the great popularity of this thread.
> 
> 
> And I will never, ever forget how this contrasts with the late 80's.  I wish I would have kept it but the Gazette ran a little cartoon circa 1988 that said, "What do you say about a town when the only construction downtown is a new jail?"  It still makes my stomach hurt a little to think about that.
> 
> At that time, people would have been excited about even one of the small renovation projects in AA or Midtown.  Now, those barely get a mention because there are huge things happening (and on the verge of happening) everywhere.


Agreed!

----------


## Kokopelli

> Some of these speculations are reminding me of the breathless pronouncements we enjoyed a couple years ago someone's sister's brother's babysitter's mother had seen the board of directors and senior management in town, and therefore Hertz must be moving their headquarters to OKC.  ;-)


Wondering  whether a group is a tourist group or a business group is a big step from speculation and even a bigger step from some sort of breathless pronouncement. Especially since I didn't say I had interviewed any of the groups members or their sister's brother's babysitter's manacurist to determine their intent. ;-)

----------


## plmccordj

> At that time, people would have been excited about even one of the small renovation projects in AA or Midtown.  Now, those barely get a mention because there are huge things happening (and on the verge of happening) everywhere.


I remember in 1986 Tinker announced there were 100 jobs coming available and people were to apply at Rose State college.  There were thousands of people that showed up to a point that the local TV station was showing helicopter views of the people waiting in line along the fence all the way down Tinker Diagonal.  After it was over there was garbage from Sooner Road all the way to Rose State.  It was sad. Also, I remember going to basic training in the Air Force in 1987 when entire shopping centers were boarded up and houses were for sale everywhere.  I read an article that convinced me to go in the Air Force that said that if another house was not built it would take 10 years to fill the ones that were already there.  It was very disheartening.  I agree with Pete on this.  It cannot be overstated how fortunate we are to be able to have this conversation in the first place.

Very fortunate!

----------


## lasomeday

> During the Fox post game show for the Thunder game last night you could see in the background behind the announcers  a group of Asians, most dressed in blue,  taking pictures on the court. Made me wonder if it was a tourist group or perhaps a business group.


http://newsok.com/official-invites-o...rticle/3649068

They were Chinese here visiting Hobby Lobby.  They are wanting us to do business with them not move here.

----------


## HotStuff80

As a resident of San Francisco, I can tell you that we have thousands of eastern visitors.  I also believe that it is in their DNA to love photography.  They disembark from their tour bus and immediately begin photographing EVERYTHING (grocery stores, including the produce and all departments; they photograph curbs of streets, flower stands and people on the street.)

It would be difficult to tell, unless you actually approach and ask them.

----------


## Kokopelli

> http://newsok.com/official-invites-o...rticle/3649068
> 
> They were Chinese here visiting Hobby Lobby.  They are wanting us to do business with them not move here.


Thanks for responding. Hope the group enjoyed the Thunder win as much as I did.

----------


## Urbanized

We regularly have many, many visitors in OKC from mainland China, Taiwan, Japan, Germany, Sweden, Scotland, Italy, you name it. The number is much greater during summer months thanks to Route 66, but the average OKC resident would be SHOCKED if they poked their noses out a little bit and/or worked in places like museums, attractions, the airport, Bricktown, Route 66 destinations, etc.

----------


## kevinpate

> Here a better idea - cool the speculation rumors and have patience!


oh phffft.  speculation and patience need not be treated as incompatible.  Both can be quite enjoyable.

----------


## 5alive

As someone who rarely posts, I LOVE reading this thread. Lots of fun  :Smile:

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I originally found this forum by looking for "oklahoma city new skyscraper" or something close to that. I think everyone who reads, lurks and posts here is excited for Round #2. This time around, I'll be more experienced, have a new SLR and we have Cooper Ross covering things from the air.

----------


## Just the facts

> This time around, I'll be more experienced, have a new SLR and we have Cooper Ross covering things from the air.


That sounds like the intro to a TV news broadcast.

----------


## Fantastic

> We regularly have many, many visitors in OKC from mainland China, Taiwan, Japan, Germany, Sweden, Scotland, Italy, you name it. The number is much greater during summer months thanks to Route 66, but the average OKC resident would be SHOCKED if they poked their noses out a little bit and/or worked in places like museums, attractions, the airport, Bricktown, Route 66 destinations, etc.


Absolutly right!  And they are always amazed.  It's pretty cool to work at one job durring the day with a bunch of locals that take everything for granted and have no faith in this city, and then go to work in the evening with a bunch of tourists from all over the world and see how they see the city.  I can't wait to see what both groups they think over the next 5-10 years.

----------


## Fantastic

> I originally found this forum by looking for "oklahoma city new skyscraper" or something close to that. I think everyone who reads, lurks and posts here is excited for Round #2. This time around, I'll be more experienced, have a new SLR and we have Cooper Ross covering things from the air.


Same here... and I'm honestly looking forward to seeing what you can do with an SLR... Keep up the good work!

----------


## mrktguy29

As crazy as some of these posts are... It's a nice chuckle after a long day. It also keeps the other pages less cluttered with speculation.

----------


## soonerguru

> What about Trans Canada Corporation?  The current President and CEO of Devon, John Richels, used to be the President/CEO of Devon Canada Corporation  could be a connection there.  Trans Canada is the biggest player in the Keystone Pipeline that will be running through Cushing.  Trans Canada's market Cap is double that of Chesapeake.  I know they are in North America but they do not have a US HQ.  Devon could have some major connections there and be trying to recruit them to build a US HQ in DT OKC.  Devon also has Canada operations in and around the same locations that Trans Canada does.  This is speculation but would be a great addition to OKC.


I've thought this for some time after overhearing TransCanada execs conversing on my flight from Chicago to OKC.

----------


## knightrider

> I've thought this for some time after overhearing TransCanada execs conversing on my flight from Chicago to OKC.


Also of note, one of the vice presidents of Trans Canada was recently in Oklahoma City to discuss the Keystone Pipeline with the OKC Rotary Club.  Then the VP spent some time with the Gov. and other Oklahoma oil and gas executives during his stay.

----------


## G.Walker

Another bad reaction from http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...86#post5592986 from username Cashville:

_"Lackmeyer is a sunshine pusher and everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. If you listen to him OKC will be adding 8-10 300+ foot towers in the next 5 years and attracting a fortune 100 company or two along the way. He seems to not really grasp reality and run with any rumor he hears. Maybe there will be a new 'tower' built, but I assure you it wont be in the 700 foot range"._ 

I guess with a name like Cashville, you shouldn't be disrespecting anyone. I remember when people swore up and down Devon Tower would never happen, now look! I hope this joker Cashville gets proved wrong.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Another bad reaction from http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...86#post5592986 from username Cashville:
> 
> _"Lackmeyer is a sunshine pusher and everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. If you listen to him OKC will be adding 8-10 300+ foot towers in the next 5 years and attracting a fortune 100 company or two along the way. He seems to not really grasp reality and run with any rumor he hears. Maybe there will be a new 'tower' built, but I assure you it wont be in the 700 foot range"._ 
> 
> I guess with a name like Cashville, you shouldn't be disrespecting anyone. I remember when people swore up and down Devon Tower would never happen, now look! I hope this joker Cashville gets proved wrong.


He's a nerd jerk from Nashville, hence the name cashville. He's been dogging OKC for years....he's sick (and jealous), take him with a grain of salt. Devon Tower really kicked his tail as if any of it matters. Those guys over there get on him pretty good though.

----------


## lasomeday

There were a bunch of executives walking around getting a tour of downtown this morning.  I couldn't tell what company they were with, but they were talking oil and gas.

----------


## G.Walker

> There were a bunch of executives walking around getting a tour of downtown this morning.  I couldn't tell what company they were with, but they were talking oil and gas.


how do you know so much?

----------


## lasomeday

> how do you know so much?


I lingered!

----------


## G.Walker

you always seem to to be everywhere at the right place and the right time... :Sofa:

----------


## kevinpate

The first rule about Mystery Tower  .. you must speculate about Mystery Tower

----------


## semisimple

> He's a nerd jerk from Nashville, hence the name cashville. He's been dogging OKC for years....he's sick (and jealous), take him with a grain of salt. Devon Tower really kicked his tail as if any of it matters. Those guys over there get on him pretty good though.


He's just saying what many others are thinking--that the local enthusiasm about OKC's recent progress has hit extreme levels, and thus the speculation (and expectations) about future growth seems to have become detached from reality.

Because OKC is a small city and has long been playing catch-up to similar cities (like Nashville) in terms of development, the recent "boom," highlighted by the Devon Tower, has been highly visible and well-publicized which has resulted in the rather warped perceptions some people evidently have about how OKC has grown and will grow relative to other cities. 

I seem to remember a similar phenomenon with MAPS and the canal.  Years ago there were grand visions and expectations for lower Bricktown and many people were eager to fuel the fire--the rumor mill was on overdrive.  IIRC, the DOK provided a rare dose of sanity by running a front page article on the greatly exaggerated portrayals of future canal-side development by the water taxi drivers. 

I think the newfound civic pride is a great thing, but now that the rumor mill is abuzz again and has the DOK for a mouthpiece, don't be surprised to see plenty of outsiders--particularly from equally or even more dynamic locales--happy to provide a reality check.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> He's just saying what many others are thinking--that the local enthusiasm about OKC's recent progress has hit extreme levels, and thus the speculation (and expectations) about future growth seems to have become detached from reality.


I would agree, especially when reading this forum and some of it's hyperbolic prognosticators. However, where that "nerd jerk" OKC-hater is most egregiously wrong is his characterization of Steve Lackmeyer. If anything, it shows he simply doesn't have a clue and should be summarily disregarded on that reason alone.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Another bad reaction from http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...86#post5592986 from username Cashville:
> 
> _"Lackmeyer is a sunshine pusher and everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. If you listen to him OKC will be adding 8-10 300+ foot towers in the next 5 years and attracting a fortune 100 company or two along the way. He seems to not really grasp reality and run with any rumor he hears. Maybe there will be a new 'tower' built, but I assure you it wont be in the 700 foot range"._ 
> 
> I guess with a name like Cashville, you shouldn't be disrespecting anyone. I remember when people swore up and down Devon Tower would never happen, now look! I hope this joker Cashville gets proved wrong.


Yeah that cashville idiot has to spew at skyskraperpage because his incessant OKC hate actually got him banned from skyscrapercity long ago...

He's a sad little man.

----------


## Bellaboo

> He's just saying what many others are thinking--that the local enthusiasm about OKC's recent progress has hit extreme levels, and thus the speculation (and expectations) about future growth seems to have become detached from reality.
> 
> Because OKC is a small city and has long been playing catch-up to similar cities (like Nashville) in terms of development, the recent "boom," highlighted by the Devon Tower, has been highly visible and well-publicized which has resulted in the rather warped perceptions some people evidently have about how OKC has grown and will grow relative to other cities. 
> 
> I seem to remember a similar phenomenon with MAPS and the canal.  Years ago there were grand visions and expectations for lower Bricktown and many people were eager to fuel the fire--the rumor mill was on overdrive.  IIRC, the DOK provided a rare dose of sanity by running a front page article on the greatly exaggerated portrayals of future canal-side development by the water taxi drivers. 
> 
> I think the newfound civic pride is a great thing, but now that the rumor mill is abuzz again and has the DOK for a mouthpiece, don't be surprised to see plenty of outsiders--particularly from equally or even more dynamic locales--happy to provide a reality check.


Don't give that jerk too much credit.... he's a complete AZZ....

----------


## Teo9969

> He's just saying what many others are thinking--that the local enthusiasm about OKC's recent progress has hit extreme levels, and thus the speculation (and expectations) about future growth seems to have become detached from reality.
> 
> Because OKC is a small city and has long been playing catch-up to similar cities (like Nashville) in terms of development, the recent "boom," highlighted by the Devon Tower, has been highly visible and well-publicized which has resulted in the rather warped perceptions some people evidently have about how OKC has grown and will grow relative to other cities. 
> 
> I seem to remember a similar phenomenon with MAPS and the canal.  Years ago there were grand visions and expectations for lower Bricktown and many people were eager to fuel the fire--the rumor mill was on overdrive.  IIRC, the DOK provided a rare dose of sanity by running a front page article on the greatly exaggerated portrayals of future canal-side development by the water taxi drivers. 
> 
> I think the newfound civic pride is a great thing, but now that the rumor mill is abuzz again and has the DOK for a mouthpiece, don't be surprised to see plenty of outsiders--particularly from equally or even more dynamic locales--happy to provide a reality check.


A couple thoughts:

1. The local enthusiasm has not seemed to hit extreme levels to me. Being in my early-mid twenties, I still hear PLENTY of people who are ready to "get the hell out of Oklahoma"...and still complain about the place being boring, etc. etc. Certainly OKC is seeing some really cool things go on, particularly if you're close to or in the Urban Core, and people are excited about that, but I haven't noticed some major shift in thought process locally.

2. The local enthusiasm, if it genuinely exists and is exaggerated, is being driven by non-local entities. All the articles including OKC as "#1 Recession Proof", "Top 5 place to start a business", etc., all the talks on national radio declaring the great things about OKC, the glamour sometimes associated with the Thunder...are all things that are feeding any pride that OKC residents are carrying. Again, I don't think it's some major amount of pride, but what is there can be blamed as much on Forbes as it can Chesapeake.

3. I have seen nobody make unreasonable predictions about OKC's demographics, economics, or infrastructure. The people who are most excited about this city (people who post on this forum, and those like them) are often the most critical about even the best things happening in the city.

Just because people aren't predicting the worst case scenario, doesn't mean they aren't being unreasonable. If people were saying OKC is going to have 3 million people with 2 more professional sports franchises, 6 total fortune 500 companies, and 10 more towers, I'd be inclined to agree with the assessment that the current "speculation...(is) detached from reality". Pete's 5 point post (#322), minus the percentages, is as optimistic and lofty of an outlook as I have seen about the skyline speculation in this thread. I think most would agree with the percentages Pete gave, which is pretty cool.

The unique position that OKC is in over against many other cities is that OKC's economy is not running parallel to the National economy. OKC is likely to continue to excel over against the National economy, either direction that the National economy takes has the potential to make OKC a more attractive option: If it goes down, OKC is relatively insulated. If it goes up, OKC's growth seems likely to be more pronounced.

----------


## G.Walker

Outside of the OKCTALK family, most people are not this enthused about skyscrapers coming to OKC, or its economic development. Most of my co-workers didn't know about Devon Tower until they saw cranes in the area, and even then, someone said "man, Chesapeake is building new skyscraper downtown", all I could do is laugh. But it goes to show most people don't care about the economic development of Oklahoma City or skyscrapers.

----------


## adaniel

You cannot observe what is said on "da interwebz" and automatically conclude that this is what's going on in real life. This board is but a snapshot of the community, and people here in general will probably be more excited about the goings on than the average joe.

There have definitely been some hyperbole here lately, like the declarations that OKC will be the next Dubai. But in a weird way I really don't see it as a bad thing. I mean, people for so long, both in and outside of OKC, use to s**t on this town so bad, and many still do. Now, there is a general sense of pride and excitement in this city, especially among my generation (20 somethings). It wouldn't surprise me if people are defensive when others rehash old stereotypes. 

A little overenthusiasm can get on your nerves, but considering our past its a good problem to have.

----------


## G.Walker

Exactly, Oklahoma City has been through some hard times, and received harsh criticism. It's our time now, it's our time to shine, we deserve everything we having coming us. And if someone says we are getting 1, 2, 3, or 4 new skyscrapers, I will support it. Oklahoma City is the only city I know that turned itself around like it has. Let's Go!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> There have definitely been some hyperbole here lately, like the declarations that OKC will be the next Dubai.)


"For the spirit of Thunder endured..."

----------


## progressiveboy

> Outside of the OKCTALK family, most people are not this enthused about skyscrapers coming to OKC, or its economic development. Most of my co-workers didn't know about Devon Tower until they saw cranes in the area, and even then, someone said "man, Chesapeake is building new skyscraper downtown", all I could do is laugh. But it goes to show most people don't care about the economic development of Oklahoma City or skyscrapers.


 I have to agree with you. When I did reside in OKC, I was always perplexed as to the average resident of OKC did not know what was happening in their community and did not care. My experience was alot of complacency and apathy among "some" of OKC residents. It is great that many great things are occuring in OKC and reinforces by belief that OKC has the "potential" to become a city that residents are proud to call it home. My attitude has changed for the better of my hometown as there was a time when I was "guilty" bashing OKC.

----------


## mrktguy29

> I have to agree with you. When I did reside in OKC, I was always perplexed as to the average resident of OKC did not know what was happening in their community and did not care. My experience was alot of complacency and apathy among "some" of OKC residents. It is great that many great things are occuring in OKC and reinforces by belief that OKC has the "potential" to become a city that residents are proud to call it home. My attitude has changed for the better of my hometown as there was a time when I was "guilty" bashing OKC.


I work on Memorial and we always joke that some of our associates never go south of 63rd Street and then when presented with information about happenings downtown its like "tower?!?! Where did that come from?"

----------


## UnFrSaKn

For all the positive changes to our image to the rest of the country, there's always something that balances it out...

Not to be confused with....

----------


## ZYX2

I actually really like "Hillbilly Handfishin'."

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Mudcats is actually on now. It seems to be all in Oklahoma... Anyway, this shouldn't get off topic.

----------


## jbrown84

Really enjoying the speculation. Definitely a thread to watch.

I'd like to see the Preftakes block get some residential. Either in a second tower or one big mixed-use tower.

----------


## lasomeday

> Really enjoying the speculation. Definitely a thread to watch.
> 
> I'd like to see the Preftakes block get some residential. Either in a second tower or one big mixed-use tower.


I like the Mixed-Use Tower idea!  I do hope they are thinking of a residential tower.  I think the location of the school across the street is due to some planning by the people in the Know!

It would be cool if we could have a combination of new towers with the Charlotte corporate towers and the Austin residential towers.  The best of both worlds!  

I think the ACM will have more impact on downtown/bricktown in the next few years and more 20 and 30 somethings will want to live downtown.  Just like in Austin with the live music venues on 6th street and the surrounding area.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'll put 20 bucks on one of the two Chinese oil companies. Kind of makes sense, they are involved with both CHK and Devon on lease holdings, and they obviously have cash.

----------


## lasomeday

> I'll put 20 bucks on one of the two Chinese oil companies. Kind of makes sense, they are involved with both CHK and Devon on lease holdings, and they obviously have cash.


I'll take your twenty and put ten on Midfirst and ten on American Fidelity!

----------


## MDot

> I'll take your twenty and put ten on Midfirst and ten on American Fidelity!


And I'll take Bellaboo's twenty and your double ten's and go to a Thunder game. =)

----------


## RadicalModerate

I can't believe that nobody has picked up on the fact that this "Mystery Tower" was built long ago, but downward instead of upward and is supplied with water from that pipe under Lake Hefner.

You think that old cartoon in Playboy magazine showing a foreman, hollering at workers way down in a deep hole--apparently immediately after consulting with an architect, an engineer, and a couple of other suits up at street level: "Stop digging!  The plans are upside down!!" was just a joke?

----------


## Bellaboo

> And I'll take Bellaboo's twenty and your double ten's and go to a Thunder game. =)


I'll put the second tower as MidFirst or AFA, I'll take both 20's for the Chinese Oil Co, and I'll go to the Thunder game.... I'm going anyway though..........have club level season tickets.

----------


## MDot

> I'll put the second tower as MidFirst or AFA, I'll take both 20's for the Chinese Oil Co, and I'll go to the Thunder game.... I'm going anyway though..........have club level season tickets.


Sounds like you're in good shape all around homie. Wish I was you, or at least friends with you. =/ lol

----------


## Bellaboo

> Sounds like you're in good shape all around homie. Wish I was you, or at least friends with you. =/ lol


MDot,

If for some reason my wife and I can't go to a game sometime this year, I'll PM you and give you our tickets. I've lived a blessed life so far.

----------


## MDot

> MDot,
> 
> If for some reason my wife and I can't go to a game sometime this year, I'll PM you and give you our tickets. I've lived a blessed life so far.


Wow, thank you, Bellaboo. Even if that never happens, thank you for even suggesting it.

----------


## mrktguy29

> MDot,
> 
> If for some reason my wife and I can't go to a game sometime this year, I'll PM you and give you our tickets. I've lived a blessed life so far.


If for some reason MDot can't make it I'll be happy to put them to good use!  :Smile:

----------


## Bellaboo

> Wow, thank you, Bellaboo. Even if that never happens, thank you for even suggesting it.


Last year I gave them away once. You never know when something comes up and you can't go.

----------


## BDP

In the early stage of these rumors, a lot of the sources were tied to construction workers working on the Devon tower. I think the suggestion was that they should prepare to stay a bit longer, alluding to that the resources would simply be reallocated to the new project(s) rather than be moving on. If this is the case, then wouldn't it stand to reason we'll see an official announcement sooner rather than later. With both Devon cranes coming down, it seems the bulk of the heavy lifting is complete and, with that, some of the resources will be moving on soon. If there is some sort of synergy play here, it's probably getting close to putting it into action, yes?

----------


## Bellaboo

I'd go with sooner rather than later. I don't think the real estate people would make a bold comment about a new headquarters if it wasn't close.

----------


## Pete

I'm sure a lot of the guys that worked on the tower in the initial stages are already done.  They moved on to the "trades" for the final finish out of the interior some time ago.

It's not like these are big teams that stay together...  They are hired as needed for particular jobs for their particular skills.  I would imagine a good number that worked on the Devon project have moved on to SandRidge, CHK, Project 180, highway work or the dozens of other big construction jobs around town.

There have been thousands of construction workers on this project but it certain hasn't been the same people the entire time.

----------


## G.Walker

> In the early stage of these rumors, a lot of the sources were tied to construction workers working on the Devon tower. I think the suggestion was that they should prepare to stay a bit longer, alluding to that the resources would simply be reallocated to the new project(s) rather than be moving on. If this is the case, then wouldn't it stand to reason we'll see an official announcement sooner rather than later. With both Devon cranes coming down, it seems the bulk of the heavy lifting is complete and, with that, some of the resources will be moving on soon. If there is some sort of synergy play here, it's probably getting close to putting it into action, yes?


A good way to monitor progress on an announcement of a potential skyscraper, is to monitor the OCEDT agenda every month. They only meet once a month, and researching their agenda would give hints to what company is moving here and other developments. I think we will get an official announcement  before FY12 comes to a close, which is June 30, 2012. I am sure they will announce a big project like this before the end of the fiscal year.

----------


## Patrick

Speculation is all good and fine, but it all becomes a little silly when you happen to know what's really going to happen.  When you know reality, hearing comments about Canadian and Chinese corporations building skyscrapers in downtown Oklahoma City just sounds a little crazy, because there's no truth to it at all.  When you're a shareholder in a group of local corporations there's a lot of things you learn that the general public simply isn't aware of. I'll make it simple for you: lasomeday's comment is about the most on target of any I've read here, and I think he/she would win the bet he/she wagered, if indeed the economy continues to improve.  I wouldn't bet $1 on a Chinese oil company.  But I would bet $1,000 on either Midfirst or AFA.

----------


## KayneMo

Did a little SketchUp-ing :-)

----------


## UnFrSaKn

That really would be a great addition to the skyline. Perfect height. That Preftakes block is the perfect place.

----------


## Pete

> Could you make a version of those with the tower on Gaylord on the grass lot?


And with a 20-story building just east of Sandridge Tower and a 30-story convention hotel just west of the CHK Arena?


And I agree, a 40-story building at Main/Hudson would really round out our skyline.

----------


## KayneMo

Something like this?

----------


## Oil Capital

> Wondering  whether a group is a tourist group or a business group is a big step from speculation and even a bigger step from some sort of breathless pronouncement. Especially since I didn't say I had interviewed any of the groups members or their sister's brother's babysitter's manacurist to determine their intent. ;-)


I realize your post was far removed from a breathless pronouncement.  Nevertheless, the speculation is comparable, and amusing.  Just having a little fun here... no need to get defensive.

----------


## lasomeday

> Something like this?


Maybe one more residential tower about 30 stories in the Preftakes block!

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Did a little SketchUp-ing :-)


 Great visualization "fuel".  Thanks!

----------


## Kokopelli

> Unless you have changed your name, it wasn't your posting I was referring to.  Go back and review the posts if you like...


Oil Capital no I haven't changed my name, I did go look you should do the same as it was my post. Right there on page 19 post # 460 2-15-12 at 4:00 pm and in case you can't find it I copied it here for you.

Re: Mystery Tower( speculation, news and ideas) post here! 

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

During the Fox post game show for the Thunder game last night you could see in the background behind the announcers a group of Asians, most dressed in blue, taking pictures on the court. Made me wonder if it was a tourist group or perhaps a business group.
 Some of these speculations are reminding me of the breathless pronouncements we enjoyed a couple years ago someone's sister's brother's babysitter's mother had seen the board of directors and senior management in town, and therefore Hertz must be moving their headquarters to OKC. ;-)

----------


## Pete

[QUOTE=KayneMo;510172]Something like this?/QUOTE]


Yes!!  Thanks so much -- very cool.

And I love the way all these proposed locations and buildings are placed/spaced.  I hope at least some of them come into being because any would make a big impact on our skyline.

----------


## dmoor82

If in 20 years the OKC skyline looks like this,I will be ecstatic!This rendered skyline of OKC would put us on par with MUCH LARGER city skylines!

----------


## Oil Capital

> Oil Capital no I haven't changed my name, I did go look you should do the same as it was my post. Right there on page 19 post # 460 2-15-12 at 4:00 pm and in case you can't find it I copied it here for you.
> 
> Re: Mystery Tower( speculation, news and ideas) post here! 
> 
> Originally Posted by Kokopelli
> 
> During the Fox post game show for the Thunder game last night you could see in the background behind the announcers a group of Asians, most dressed in blue, taking pictures on the court. Made me wonder if it was a tourist group or perhaps a business group.
>  Some of these speculations are reminding me of the breathless pronouncements we enjoyed a couple years ago someone's sister's brother's babysitter's mother had seen the board of directors and senior management in town, and therefore Hertz must be moving their headquarters to OKC. ;-)


I initially misunderstood your post.  Please read my edited response.  (Your response to my unedited post must have been made nearly simultaneously with my edit.)

----------


## sroberts24

I would LOVE something like this building proposed in Austin to go where Stage Center is... I know that prolly not a popular option to place a high rise on this site but I hate Stage Center and always have

http://utorange.wordpress.com/2012/0...ut-of-towners/

----------


## Architect2010

In my perfect scenario, the Preftakes Block would be saved/augmented with a parking garage and the mystery tower built where the Stage Center stands now. Keep the old and increase density on the adjacent block where it does not exist.

----------


## silvergrove

From unsubstantiated rumors about the mystery tower, I'm not sure if we're going to like this new mystery company relocating here...

----------


## kevinpate

> From unsubstantiated rumors about the mystery tower, I'm not sure if we're going to like this new mystery company relocating here...


LOL.  My 2nd thought at this was 'oh great, who moved the Legislature over there'

----------


## Architect2010

I also think that the Century Center Plaza site would be perfect for a skyscraper taller than the Chase and shorter than Devon. It would do wonders for the skyline, visually connecting the isolated Chase with our other tallest. It would also block the ugly southern facade of the First National Bank complex. [Not the tower itself]

----------


## Pete

The City said they were in talks to sell the Century Center Garage but I'm afraid it's probably to the Sheraton people who have done absolutely nothing with the Century Center itself.

----------


## plmccordj

I disagree with putting a building where there is already a building. I am not sure where this feeling is coming from that we have to keep downtown in a six block square.  How about leaving the buildings that are there alone and just find an empty block on the edge?

----------


## Just the facts

> I disagree with putting a building where there is already a building. I am not sure where this feeling is coming from that we have to keep downtown in a six block square.  How about leaving the buildings that are there alone and just find an empty block on the edge?


After seeing Cooper's pictures of downtown I decided to make a map of Oklahoma City's core showing the extent of continuous urban development.  I tried to keep it to blocks that are completely covered by buildings of 2 stories or more and has buildings pushed out to the sidewalk.  I agree we should try and focus on expanding the coverage.

----------


## Architect2010

> I disagree with putting a building where there is already a building. I am not sure where this feeling is coming from that we have to keep downtown in a six block square.  How about leaving the buildings that are there alone and just find an empty block on the edge?


In the perfect world, a lot of buildings shouldn't have been built in the first place. IE Stage Center, Century Center, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with wishing those sites could return to something more grand as they had been in the past and could be in the future. However, that definitely will not happen in their current forms. 

This is a speculation thread btw.

----------


## wsucougz

The take on the ground amongst the Devon crew smokers is that there are two more towers on the way - one slightly taller than Devon.  Done deal, according to them.  Take it for what it's worth.  I'm certainly taking it with a grain of tabaccy.

----------


## edcrunk

> The take on the ground amongst the Devon crew smokers is that there are two more towers on the way - one slightly taller than Devon.  Done deal, according to them.  Take it for what it's worth.  I'm certainly taking it with a grain of tabaccy.


Dang Cougz.... that'd be outta control! 
Or maybe you're just being sarcastic. I can't tell on the internet.

----------


## plmccordj

> In the perfect world, a lot of buildings shouldn't have been built in the first place. IE Stage Center, Century Center, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with wishing those sites could return to something more grand as they had been in the past and could be in the future. However, that definitely will not happen in their current forms. 
> 
> This is a speculation thread btw.


I don't disagree with you at all on that building.  Where I differ is that new skyscrapers are very very hard to come by.  I would hate to waste that opportunity by putting it right in the middle of an already teeny tiny footprint that is our downtown.  I would rather expand the area on these opportunities.  Heck, That Century Center is so small that you cannot even see it five miles away.  That building could be removed separately from a new skyscraper.

----------


## Patrick

> The City said they were in talks to sell the Century Center Garage but I'm afraid it's probably to the Sheraton people who have done absolutely nothing with the Century Center itself.


The Sheraton people plan on buying it and turning it into more ballroom and meeting space.  They've had these plans for sometime now, but they've just been delayed.

----------


## Patrick

> In the perfect world, a lot of buildings shouldn't have been built in the first place. IE Stage Center, Century Center, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with wishing those sites could return to something more grand as they had been in the past and could be in the future. However, that definitely will not happen in their current forms. 
> 
> This is a speculation thread btw.


I don't know if I'd go as far as saying that they shouldn't have been built.  Stage Center and Century Center both served their purpose for some time.  It's just now the purpose they were originally built for isn't needed anymore.

----------


## wsucougz

> Dang Cougz.... that'd be outta control! 
> Or maybe you're just being sarcastic. I can't tell on the internet.



No sarcasm.  That's what one of the supervisors told me.

----------


## edcrunk

> No sarcasm.  That's what one of the supervisors told me.


That is so ill!

----------


## sroberts24

> The take on the ground amongst the Devon crew smokers is that there are two more towers on the way - one slightly taller than Devon.  Done deal, according to them.  Take it for what it's worth.  I'm certainly taking it with a grain of tabaccy.


Can you go into more detail about this talk you had with them?  This is very interesting!

----------


## Teo9969

I kinda hope no one builds taller than Devon for at least a decade...But I'm all for two more towers. I would also say that they are not done deals until they are announced and ground is broken.

----------


## Architect2010

> I don't know if I'd go as far as saying that they shouldn't have been built.  Stage Center and Century Center both served their purpose for some time.  It's just now the purpose they were originally built for isn't needed anymore.


Either way, it still goes back to the original notion that they should be replaced and not left just because they may have once served some needless purpose. Honestly, I hate these structures because they replaced meaningful and historic structures of use. Of course, I don't want them torn down based on speculation, but if there were plans for a tower to go on the Century Center site then I would be ecstatic. I feel as if they are both scars on our urban fabric and second only to the numerous vacant lots we stand to infill.

----------


## wsucougz

He told me they are currently in the bidding process.  One smoke turned into three.  We'll see... I too will remain skeptical until something actually happens.

----------


## Pete

I doubt there is anything being bid at this point, as several of us monitor bidding databases and there has been nothing big for downtown.  They could be doing it very secretly but if the construction crews know about it, how secret could it be?

The people most likely to know would be the crane operators.  That is a very specialized skill and there aren't a lot of big projects for them currently.  So it could be that they have been put on notice there will be more work in OKC and that information has trickled down.

All the workers pretty much freelance or work for specialized trades and the large-scale construction world is pretty small.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of the broad rumors are circulating and maybe even reinforced by construction management, wanting them to stick around for the next big job.


It sure is fun to speculate.  And with Devon having set the bar so high in so many ways, it's exciting to think about developers/architects/corporations sitting around trying to dream up the next big thing.

----------


## king183

Confirmed: A tower is being planned by a company involved in finance, which is what most of us already guessed. I'm going to confirm whether it's MidFirst or American Fidelity soon, but at this point, I'd put money on American Fidelity.

----------


## Pete

king, are you hearing this is for the Main/Hudson site or is that part unclear?

----------


## king183

> king, are you hearing this is for the Main/Hudson site or is that part unclear?


I'm entirely unclear on the location right now. I'll try to pin that down if I can.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Confirmed: A tower is being planned by a company involved in finance, which is what most of us already guessed. I'm going to confirm whether it's MidFirst or American Fidelity soon, but at this point, I'd put money on American Fidelity.


Confirmed....by you?

Source??

Thanks...

----------


## Just the facts

I wonder how much circular reference is taking place.

----------


## lasomeday

I also heard that an oil and gas company is coming to OKC.  Not sure where they will be located but it should happen soon.

----------


## lasomeday

> Confirmed: A tower is being planned by a company involved in finance, which is what most of us already guessed. I'm going to confirm whether it's MidFirst or American Fidelity soon, but at this point, I'd put money on American Fidelity.


If the builiding being planned is taller than Devon, I think it will be Mid-First Bank.  If it is smaller than Devon I thinkn it could be American Fidelity.

I am getting excited!  I think we should hear something soon!  

We are definitely about to see a lot of good things happen in 2012!

----------


## shavethewhales

> If the builiding being planned is taller than Devon, I think it will be Mid-First Bank.  If it is smaller than Devon I thinkn it could be American Fidelity.
> 
> I am getting excited!  I think we should hear something soon!  
> 
> We are definitely about to see a lot of good things happen in 2012!


Nothing is going to be built taller than Devon. I'm not sure some people understand quite how much of an anomily it is to have a 850ft building be built in a smaller city like OKC. Buildings 1000ft and higher are still fairly rare in America, although a few are being built in New York simply because of high demand for space. Devon is ridiculously big enough as it is, I can't imagine anyone building anything larger in our lifetimes. 

How big is Midfirst bank? I've seen a few of their locations in the metro, but they don't strike me as a company that would need a really huge tower, maybe something mid rise to what we have in the CBD now.

----------


## Doug Loudenback

Since we are all guessing (perhaps with the exception of King who appears to say that he/she has some degree of actual knowledge), I'll venture my own.

Of the two frontrunners, I'd pick MidFirst which doesn't have a significant (if any) downtown presence ... and perhaps it wants to have one which matches its Oklahoma and Okahoma City status. As reported by Finance Learners, 

*Top Banks in Oklahoma* 
The top largest banks in Oklahoma (US) are BancFirst, Bank of Oklahoma, MidFirst Bank, First United Bank, SpiritBank, among others.

BancFirst is Oklahoma's largest state-chartered bank. The Company was recognized for the third consecutive year as one of America’s Best Banks by Bank Director magazine and has been ranked 11th among the largest publicly traded banks and thrifts nationwide.

Bank of Oklahoma is Oklahoma's largest locally owned business lender, offering a comprehensive lending program tailored to fit the needs of businesses.

*MidFirst Bank is one of the largest privately owned banks in the United States*, offering a full range of commercial, trust, private banking and mortgage banking products and services. It is consistently ranked as one of the best performing banks in the United States and well capitalized with a diversified asset portfolio.
On the other hand, *American Fidelity* has a well established modern campus along Classen, complete with plenty of employee parking. The three buildings along Classen appear to be a combined of somewhere around 26-28 stories, excluding basements. Why it would abandon that convenient and presumably paid-for near-downtown location is beyond me.

Just guessing in all respects, of course.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Confirmed: A tower is being planned by a company involved in finance, which is what most of us already guessed. I'm going to confirm whether it's MidFirst or American Fidelity soon, but at this point, I'd put money on American Fidelity.


Isn't AF an insurance company ? That would make this lean to MidFirst if it's finance ???   just a thought.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> The Sheraton people plan on buying it and turning it into more ballroom and meeting space.  They've had these plans for sometime now, but they've just been delayed.


that garage is being sold   but not to the sheraton people .. and the buyers have big plans for the space

----------


## Pete

Boulder, can you elaborate on the Century Center plans?

----------


## Doug Loudenback

> Isn't AF an insurance company ? That would make this lean to MidFirst if it's finance ???   just a thought.


Yes.

----------


## lasomeday

> Boulder, can you elaborate on the Century Center plans?


Big plans I hope mean tear it down!  I hate that building!

----------


## lasomeday

> Nothing is going to be built taller than Devon. I'm not sure some people understand quite how much of an anomily it is to have a 850ft building be built in a smaller city like OKC. Buildings 1000ft and higher are still fairly rare in America, although a few are being built in New York simply because of high demand for space. Devon is ridiculously big enough as it is, I can't imagine anyone building anything larger in our lifetimes. 
> 
> How big is Midfirst bank? I've seen a few of their locations in the metro, but they don't strike me as a company that would need a really huge tower, maybe something mid rise to what we have in the CBD now.


Do some research buddy.  They have offices scattered all over town and are one of the largest and fastest growing mortgage companies in the country. They only do low risk usually government backed mortgages. They are private so they aren't in the public eye as much. They also have the usually banking facilities across OKC.  They have the capital to do it and used to be downtown.  I am not sure how many people they employee but I would say it is over 1,000 maybe close to 1,500.

----------


## G.Walker

I don't know at this point, there are so many different ways this can turn out. If AF was going to build a skyscraper on Main/Hudson, I don't see them building anything taller than Devon. I'd rather see MidFirst build 40 story tower on that block, and have AF build a corporate campus next to C2S as originally stated, with like 4-5 12 story buildings,  which would spark a lot of development in that area.

----------


## Just the facts

The final height depends on the design.  If it has a 200' spire it could easily surpass Devon in height even if the highest useable floor is lower than Devon.

----------


## king183

> Isn't AF an insurance company ? That would make this lean to MidFirst if it's finance ???   just a thought.


I consider insurance, especially their type of life insurance, and the other business they do (flex spending, HSAs, retirement) to be finance.  It's not precise, but when I said finance, they met the definition.

----------


## G.Walker

It really doesn't matter to me what company builds a skyscraper on that block, either way, it will be a great private investment in downtown, and a testament of premier corporate responsibility, whether it be 40, 50, or 60 stories.

----------


## bombermwc

MidFirst's office space isn't that large though folks. Given the employee base for the branches, you have to reduce the number of employees by MF by a LOT. It's not as though they are spread out over 20 different office buildings in town. I don't see any reason for them to move downtown compared to where they are...in a relatively small space. They would simply be infill if they moved downtown...taking over Vacant Devon space. But remember, the vas majority of Devon space will be taken within a year and we'll be left with crappy Class C FNC junk. Same as with American Fidelity, why give up the space they have for a far less convenient, no parking, higher rent option downtown?

----------


## architect5311

Can someone make "Tower", in the thread title, plural?

----------


## catch22

I'd be in favor of changing the title to Mystery Development..... Let's not fan the flame here....

----------


## BDP

Didn't MidFirst acquire a bank in Phoenix in the last few years? Maybe they want to consolidate some of their out of state operations here as well, requiring more corporate space?

----------


## lasomeday

> MidFirst's office space isn't that large though folks. Given the employee base for the branches, you have to reduce the number of employees by MF by a LOT. It's not as though they are spread out over 20 different office buildings in town. I don't see any reason for them to move downtown compared to where they are...in a relatively small space. They would simply be infill if they moved downtown...taking over Vacant Devon space. But remember, the vas majority of Devon space will be taken within a year and we'll be left with crappy Class C FNC junk. Same as with American Fidelity, why give up the space they have for a far less convenient, no parking, higher rent option downtown?


Another negative response from Bomber.  Wow, could we expect less.

They have a lot of mortgage services around the city.  More than we know.  I have two friends that work in large call center type offices that used to be Wal-Marts.  They say each has 200-250 employees in each.  Then their corporate offices have about 200 people.  They have been making acquisitions that will increase their work force bringing in jobs from all over.  My friends aren't sure where these people will be located when they get here.

----------


## Urbanized

> Didn't MidFirst acquire a bank in Phoenix in the last few years? Maybe they want to consolidate some of their out of state operations here as well, requiring more corporate space?


They did. I flew out to Phoenix last year to see a Thunder/Suns game and was surprised to see MidFirst splashed all over everything. Their sponsorship of the Suns was perhaps even more front-and-center than their Thunder relationship is here; probably a holdover from the bank they acquired.

----------


## Bellaboo

> They did. I flew out to Phoenix last year to see a Thunder/Suns game and was surprised to see MidFirst splashed all over everything. Their sponsorship of the Suns was perhaps even more front-and-center than their Thunder relationship is here; probably a holdover from the bank they acquired.


Go figure, Jeff Records is one of the principle original owners of the Thunder.....They also have a lot of space at Sheperd Mall for one of their units.

----------


## Urbanized

That's why I said their "Thunder relationship" rather than simply "sponsorship."

----------


## Urban Pioneer

> Nothing is going to be built taller than Devon. I'm not sure some people understand quite how much of an anomily it is to have a 850ft building be built in a smaller city like OKC. Buildings 1000ft and higher are still fairly rare in America, although a few are being built in New York simply because of high demand for space. Devon is ridiculously big enough as it is, I can't imagine anyone building anything larger in our lifetimes.


I disagree.  I think that OKC might be one of the next "great cities".  We could easily see a comparable or bigger tower in our lifetime.  Certainly, economic stability will help.  But having travelled Portland and lived in Austin during similar periods, one gets the sense that we're on the edge of tipping over into some major sustainable base growth.  It also feels like living on an island as well based on where we are geographically located.

----------


## BoomerThunder

American Fidelity/Cameron Oil

----------


## G.Walker

I think we are all in for a big surprise!

----------


## MDot

> I think we are all in for a big surprise!


Gut feeling?

----------


## Bellaboo

> I think we are all in for a big surprise!


I'm ready................. back in the Boeing thread king said we'd all be shocked......

----------


## Pete

Yes, MidFirst swept up some failed banks in Phoenix in 2009 and employ a bunch of people out there.  Have at least 20 branches now.

Their name is on top of a 28-story building in downtown Phoenix so they must occupy a good portion of it.  Also, they are leasing that space when they obviously prefer to own their buildings.

The idea of consolidating that office with those in OKC is an interesting idea.  They are definitely growing and have the money to build.  And has been mentioned before, has a built-in buyer for it's present property in Chesapeake.

----------


## SharkSandwich

> I think we are all in for a big surprise!


Nothing against G. Walker (one of my favorite posters), but I hate posts like this.

----------


## G.Walker

thanks for the compliment, but all I was simply stating is that I think we will all be surprised on how this all turns out, meaning we are all probably not even close to what is about to take place...

----------


## dankrutka

> thanks for the compliment, but all I was simply stating is that I think we will all be surprised on how this all turns out, meaning we are all probably not even close to what is about to take place...


What is your basis for this comment? Just speculation on this board? The over-the-top pronouncements without any credible sources or knowledge don't add anything... Worst case, they just set everyone up for disappointment.

----------


## catch22

> What is your basis for this comment? Just speculation on this board? The over-the-top pronouncements without any credible sources or knowledge don't add anything... Worst case, they just set everyone up for disappointment.


+1.

This thread is out of control. Each post of "in-the-know", vague teasers just fans the flame. What if nothing is announced this year? What if nothing is announced next year? Let's just wait it out and not get excited in our pants over something that isn't a sure deal yet.

----------


## G.Walker

I mean think about, we have heard everything from MidFirst, American Fidelity, Chesapeake, Boeing, Continental Resources, Devon, Cemex, BancFirst, Exxon, and Chinese oil company, I have no clue at this point.

----------


## G.Walker

> +1.
> 
> This thread is out of control. Each post of "in-the-know", vague teasers just fans the flame. What if nothing is announced this year? What if nothing is announced next year? Let's just wait it out and not get excited in our pants over something that isn't a sure deal yet.


um well it is a speculation thread... :Doh:

----------


## G.Walker

take it for what its worth, you can take my posts with a grain of salt, because I know nothing, I am just a good researcher, its my job. The only inside info I have and can obtain is about Sandridge, because a good friend of mine works there, other than that, I am just your ordinary speculative poster.

----------


## Bellaboo

> What is your basis for this comment? Just speculation on this board? The over-the-top pronouncements without any credible sources or knowledge don't add anything... Worst case, they just set everyone up for disappointment.


Hey, this is fun stuff. All of the resources on this board will eventually nail this down before the general public knows...I hope this new tower goes 925'.

----------


## catch22

> um well it is a speculation thread...


Which is the problem. This forum acts like 12 year old school girls talking about Justin Beiber at the hint of new development. So making a thread to bait that enthusiasm is just asking to run wild with rumors and high expectations of things that have not been confirmed or signed on. Perhaps this should be moved out of the development forum since there is nothing factual or firm in this thread, and move it to the Open Topic forum.

I like to stay at ground level and talk about done deals. Not vague rumors from people who's poolboy's mom's hairdresser's daughter's schoolteacher's babysitter's brother who works at so-and-so company who does business with XYZ company said they were building a 100 story tower in OKC and moving all operations from the Death Star to OKC.

----------


## SharkSandwich

In considering Steve's articles and what I believed to be credible posts on this forum, I surmised that a new tower would be built on the Carpenter Square location, along with the three small buildings to the west.  However, in looking at the area this afternoon, I don't see that happening.  Project 180 has almost completely finished new streets, curbs, pipelines and sidewalks all around CS.  It seems terribly inefficient to tear all of that out for construction of a new tower in the immediate future.  In the end, it would be a huge waste of city time, money and resources to have done all of that work just to see it undone.  

Am I wrong?

I'm starting to think the better (more likely) location is the Stage Center area.

----------


## metro

I agree with catch22, this thread is way out of control and I think many people are going to sound utterly ridiculous when a formal announcement is made. Most of the fanning of the flames are by new or unreliable posters. The only one who has commented I'd trust is Boulder, as I know him personally and he is well tied to the DT community.

----------


## BDP

PSA: reading and participating in speculation on internet message boards is not a requirement of the boards. Also, if it's hard to discern whether a post is credible or not, ignore it. If the general content of the post boils down to "I know something and can't/won't tell you yet", ignore it. If you do choose to participate speculation threads, just remember that it's just for fun and no one, most importantly yourself, will get hurt.

----------


## G.Walker

its funny how people get so mad and offended over "posts" from people they never met and know nothing about. This thread will continue, and people will continue to make stupid, obscene, creative, trustworthy, or reputable posts, so just deal with it. We will all know soon enough, then is thread will disappear and a new one will emerge over something else. 

but I did hear that there is a 65 story tower planned for the old Cox Center site, lol...just joking.... :Dizzy:

----------


## Pete

One thing that might help is to be clear when you are just guessing/wishing as opposed to actual information of some sort.

It's an easy distinction to make and I try my best to do it.  When I state something, it means I have it on pretty good authority and if you look over my posts, you will see these things almost always pan out.  I'll also point out when I've been "hearing" things, which is not the same as being relatively certain.  And lastly, sometimes it's interesting to throw out an idea or dream but again, that should be clearly stated.

Many here make no distinction between these three categories which does lead to confusion and usually, a loss of credibility.

----------


## lasomeday

OK, I am going to hijack this thread.

Has anyone seen drawings or images of the 17 story office building being built in Tulsa to house Cimarex?  I was just wondering?

----------


## G.Walker

yea, it  look likes a hospital

----------


## MDot

> OK, I am going to hijack this thread.
> 
> Has anyone seen drawings or images of the 17 story office building being built in Tulsa to house Cimarex?  I was just wondering?


I've seen them. Nothing impressive but still a good project overall.

----------


## G.Walker

just for the record, I started speculating about a new skyscraper over a year ago, before rumors even started...funny how I had the possible height and location right, huh?

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=24539&page=1

----------


## Pete

> OK, I am going to hijack this thread.
> 
> Has anyone seen drawings or images of the 17 story office building being built in Tulsa to house Cimarex?  I was just wondering?


http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...665#post480665

----------


## jedicurt

> http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...665#post480665


wow, it does look like a hospital

----------


## lasomeday

> http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...665#post480665


Thank you!  I am glad that is in Tulsa and not here!  I hope our new buildings are all glass and as glamorous as the Devon Tower!

----------


## Spartan

They don't have to be all glass, but I seriously hope that something like the Cimarex tower would get a certain amount of design criticism. But we know there's no way that happens...

----------


## dankrutka

> I think we are all in for a big surprise!





> I mean think about, we have heard everything from MidFirst, American Fidelity, Chesapeake, Boeing, Continental Resources, Devon, Cemex, BancFirst, Exxon, and Chinese oil company, I have no clue at this point.


These two quotes pretty much sum it up for me and I think Pete explained it well also. I'm not trying to make this personal, but G.Walker has been the ring leader of grand speculative claims that have caused this thread to degrade into random guessing. People click on this thread looking for information and an informed discussion. Ignoring ignorant posts means ignoring 80% of this thread. Like someone else said, if it's not based in reality then it should just be moved somewhere else on the board.

----------


## Oil Capital

> yea, it  look likes a hospital


Yeah, an ugly hospital.  ;-)

----------


## G.Walker

> These two quotes pretty much sum it up for me and I think Pete explained it well also. I'm not trying to make this personal, but G.Walker has been the ring leader of grand speculative claims that have caused this thread to degrade into random guessing. People click on this thread looking for information and an informed discussion. Ignoring ignorant posts means ignoring 80% of this thread. Like someone else said, if it's not based in reality then it should just be moved somewhere else on the board.


Wow...

----------


## catch22

> Wow...


Truth hurts, unfortunately. Not just this thread, but the Boeing one too you would criticize and almost attack anyone who said Boeing wasn't the one moving downtown, or wasn't likely to.

----------


## G.Walker

> Truth hurts, unfortunately. Not just this thread, but the Boeing one too you would criticize and almost attack anyone who said Boeing wasn't the one moving downtown, or wasn't likely to.


attack? criticize? that is borderline funny...I really don't care what people think of my posts, at the end of the day its just another thread...

----------


## dankrutka

> Wow...


How would you react to someone that said to you, "I have a big surprise!!! Well, maybe. I actually am just guessing. There may not be a surprise or it may not be big. I have no clue." 

That pretty much summarizes your contribution. Again, this isn't personal. Just maybe this form of speculation belongs in a different place than the urban development section of the board.

----------


## G.Walker

all I said was that "I THINK WE ARE ALL IN FOR A BIG SURPRISE!" what is wrong with that? the key word in that sentence is "I" as in my own opinion, own speculation. People do have opinions you know...

----------


## G.Walker

back to subject...should American Fidelity build a skyscraper, or proceed with a campus style development in C2S, which would have the bigger economic impact?

----------


## CurtisJ

> These two quotes pretty much sum it up for me and I think Pete explained it well also. I'm not trying to make this personal, but G.Walker has been the ring leader of grand speculative claims that have caused this thread to degrade into random guessing. People click on this thread looking for information and an informed discussion. Ignoring ignorant posts means ignoring 80% of this thread. Like someone else said, if it's not based in reality then it should just be moved somewhere else on the board.


This is about the third time in this thread that a complaint on all of the speculation has been made...

*clearing my throat and nodding towards the title of the thread*

I can't think of a more appropriate place for speculation.

----------


## Patrick

> MidFirst's office space isn't that large though folks. Given the employee base for the branches, you have to reduce the number of employees by MF by a LOT. It's not as though they are spread out over 20 different office buildings in town. I don't see any reason for them to move downtown compared to where they are...in a relatively small space. They would simply be infill if they moved downtown...taking over Vacant Devon space. But remember, the vas majority of Devon space will be taken within a year and we'll be left with crappy Class C FNC junk. Same as with American Fidelity, why give up the space they have for a far less convenient, no parking, higher rent option downtown?


Well most banks don't occupy the entire tower they own.  Just look at Chase Tower.  The build more as an investment and skyline presence. And with increasing demand for Class A space, it only makes sense for them to build a tower downtown just like other banks.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Well most banks don't occupy the entire tower they own.  Just look at Chase Tower.  The build more as an investment and skyline presence. And with increasing demand for Class A space, it only makes sense for them to build a tower downtown just like other banks.


Most banks don't own the office towers they occupy.   Just look at Chase Tower -- not owned by Chase Bank.    Banks most often lease space in buildings owned by others.

----------


## windowphobe

Aw, crud.  Turns out "mysterytower.com" is already registered.

----------


## metro

> Most banks don't own the office towers they occupy.   Just look at Chase Tower -- not owned by Chase Bank.    Banks most often lease space in buildings owned by others.


Exactly. Cotter Ranch owns "Chase Tower". The trolls have taken over the thread.

----------


## Doug Loudenback

Metro, I don't think of you as a troll.

----------


## kevinpate

fwiw, if you're hoping for mainly hard news in something called mystery tower (speculation, news and information) you may need to adjust the percept-o-meter a wee bit.  It is what it is, and that ain't a collection of hard news and press releases.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Metro, I don't think of you as a troll.


That's a pretty good low-blow Doug...made me laugh....lol

----------


## Bellaboo

This thread is titled 'Mystery Tower', not 'Factual Tower'. Let the speculation and circumstance continue.

----------


## jedicurt

What if it were 'Fractal Tower'?  now that would be amazing

----------


## stlokc

I hope American Fidelity stays where they are. We don't need all that space to become vacant on Classen. Might be very hard to fill.

----------


## plmccordj

> I hope American Fidelity stays where they are. We don't need all that space to become vacant on Classen. Might be very hard to fill.


Do you think they can turn them into apartments like the building next to the Golden dome?  I am going blank on the name of the place but I know most people will know.

----------


## Patrick

> Exactly. Cotter Ranch owns "Chase Tower". The trolls have taken over the thread.


Duh.  I'm not sure what I was thinking. Sorry.

----------


## kevinpate

Needs a pub on the first floor - Frac House

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Truth hurts, unfortunately. Not just this thread, but the Boeing one too you would criticize and almost attack anyone who said Boeing wasn't the one moving downtown, or wasn't likely to.


My god guys! Its not that freaking hard!!! Give G. Walker a break! Look at the freaking thread title!!!! If you absolutely can't stand this thread then do what I do with politics---stay out!

And start a thread entitled 'Mystery Tower (reality, news & ideas) Post Here!

Is it really that hard?!?

----------


## lasomeday

Still think its Midfirst Bank.  Didn't they have some drawings of a tower get out.  Coincidence?  I think they might have been thinking about building where they are and have seen what is going on with the Devon Tower and decided to build downtown instead.  Maybe a few people convinced them not to build up there and build downtown. Nichols and Preftakes maybe?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I think Chesapeake can be pretty influential when it comes to not building or staying at a spot that's surrounded by them. Be a good reason to have a future presence downtown ;-)

PS, I remember that tower. It was curved... roughly 15 stories tall IIRC.

----------


## stlokc

PLMcCord...I have no idea but think it might be very hard. And I'm not sure if the market exists for two tall vertical apt buildings on Classen. Would probably be easier and draw a different market to leave Classen building as offices and do a residential high rise downtown at a later date.

----------


## metro

Here we're the discovered renderings from 2010 believed to be Midfirst.




http://www.smallarchitects.com/

----------


## Watson410

What if they were to cut that tower down the middle and stack both sides on top of each other... BAM! 30-40 floors!

----------


## metro

With a very small diameter/floor plate

----------


## shawnw

> I hope American Fidelity stays where they are. We don't need all that space to become vacant on Classen. Might be very hard to fill.


Being a neighbor of AF, I also worry about this. While it would be nice to have them dowtown in a lot of ways, I would almost rather they expanded by building a parking garage and another building or two on their existing surface lots.

----------


## stlokc

I can't believe that I am about to add to the absurd speculation on this thread (Ferris Bueller at 31 flavors) but I will:

My father is very well connected in Oklahoma City business. He has an insurance company that specializes in writing bonds for contractors. In a note to me that he mailed with a package of unrelated things, he wrote -completely unsolicited by me- that he "hears rumors daily" of an international company moving to OKC and building a tower downtown." This man has probably never heard of this site, and has certainly never visited this thread. He likely has read anything that Steve has written in the paper, but if he's hearing "rumors daily" they are probably from people in the construction industry. To me, this does lend some added credibility.

----------


## wsucougz

LOL you idiots actually believe they're going to build something called "Mystery Tower" in OKC?  What do you think this is, a Scooby Doo Episode???

----------


## MDot

> LOL you idiots actually believe they're going to build something called "Mystery Tower" in OKC?  What do you think this is, a Scooby Doo Episode???


I guess I skipped over that conversation about it being named "Mystery Tower" but this is still one of the funnier posts I've ever read on here.

EDIT: Then I look up and see Sid's post and realized how awesome some of the posters can be on here.

----------


## architect5311

> American Fidelity/Cameron Oil


MidFirst and Sinopec, two towers....

----------


## MDot

> MidFirst and Sinopec, two towers....


Will Sinopec build one of them CrAzY looking Chinese towers?

----------


## Doug Loudenback

> Here we're the discovered renderings from 2010 believed to be Midfirst.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smallarchitects.com/


If MidFirst would do this downtown as shown above, I'd much prefer the design rather than a taller structure which loses the design. Very pretty, and thanks, Metro.

----------


## Just the facts

Keep in mind that the rendering above was located right next to their existing buildings so a move downtown might mean that a taller building would be required.  If they are able to secure another large tennant then even more floors would be required.  The width of that building might also be too wide for downtown blocks (unless it sat diagonally on the block which is probably against city code)

----------


## Bellaboo

> Keep in mind that the rendering above was located right next to their existing buildings so a move downtown might mean that a taller building would be required.  If they are able to secure another large tennant then even more floors would be required.  The width of that building might also be too wide for downtown blocks (unless it sat diagonally on the block which is probably against city code)


It would drop right in on the old chamber site.

----------


## swilki

Width be too big for downtown........clearly the city could care less about superblocks.

On a side note, when that black tower first appeared and everyone thought MidFirst was going to build that at their current location I asked a friend of mine who works at their corporate headquarters right now. She is pretty high up and deals a lot with these types of projects in other cities. She said she didn't know much other than she had seen the building's rendering in a certain persons office at MidFirst (a decision maker if you will) and that there had been guys in the parking lot spray painting lines and such. Now, that was well over a year ago so maybe they did decide to not build at that location, sell the land to CHK and reconfigure this rendering to work downtown. 

Please take that with a grain(s) of salt.....but this is a speculation thread after all.

----------


## bombermwc

I was speaking to a contact at MidFirst when that rendering came out....they said it wasn't theirs and was actually a totally different group...just building an office tower. They could be saying that just because they don't want to say, or it could be true. Who knows....but at least on the surface, they were saying it wasn't theirs.

----------


## G.Walker

> I can't believe that I am about to add to the absurd speculation on this thread (Ferris Bueller at 31 flavors) but I will:
> 
> My father is very well connected in Oklahoma City business. He has an insurance company that specializes in writing bonds for contractors. In a note to me that he mailed with a package of unrelated things, he wrote -completely unsolicited by me- that he "hears rumors daily" of an international company moving to OKC and building a tower downtown." This man has probably never heard of this site, and has certainly never visited this thread. He likely has read anything that Steve has written in the paper, but if he's hearing "rumors daily" they are probably from people in the construction industry. To me, this does lend some added credibility.


good deal, even more support for the rumors, I like this...

----------


## G.Walker

> Will Sinopec build one of them CrAzY looking Chinese towers?


the Chinese have some nice modern looking skyscrapers, especially in Hong Kong...I like their architecture, I wouldn't mind having some Chinese architecture in our skyline

----------


## lasomeday

So, the people that say they have the most reliable sources are saying an international company and a finance company.  

Hmmmm lets see....  I believe it will not be a Chinese company. 

I think with all the problems in Europe it could be a bank from Europe. Probably not from Switzerland.  

So probably an English speaking company..... Hmmmm  UK?

With their income tax hitting 50%.  I think it could be a UK bank.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...-revenues.html

Barclays or HSBC?

Barclays has commodity trading that is integrated with the oil and gas industry.  They do have offices in NYC, but have offices all over the world.

HSBC also has offices in NYC, but not a big one.

----------


## Just the facts

> Width be too big for downtown........clearly the city could care less about superblocks.


Tru dat.  And to Bellaboo's point - it might fit right on the EKG Curve as is.  The only problem being a curved building is keep 80% (or whatever the requirment is) adjacent to the sidewalk.  Although that is only for the ground floor so it could be set on top of a podium that was pushed to the sidewalk but keep the same design for the tower.

----------


## lasomeday

> Tru dat.  And to Bellaboo's point - it might fit right on the EKG Curve as is.  The only problem being a curved building is keep 80% (or whatever the requirment is) adjacent to the sidewalk.  Although that is only for the ground floor so it could be set on top of a podium that was pushed to the sidewalk but keep the same design for the tower.


They are not going to build that downtown.  I just mentioned it because it was a building that didn't happen. It was just the fact they had the money to build this and didn't.  So, they probably have that money to build something else.  And if CHK pays them for their land and building they will have enough to build a tower downtown! 

If they build something it will be relivant to the site and downtown.  That building was suited to that that site.  This is ARCH 101!

----------


## Just the facts

> If they build something it will be relivant to the site and downtown.  That building was suited to that that site.  This is ARCH 101!


Isn't that what I said?

----------


## wschnitt

What is the history witht the grassy lot?  Left over from IM Pei street realignment?

----------


## SharkSandwich

> MidFirst and Sinopec, two towers....


I just heard that Sinopec was looking at office space in the downtown area for about 10-12 employees.  Don't know if that supports or discredits the Sinopec tower rumors.

----------


## fromdust

midfirst can keep that faux urban design in the burbs whet it belongs! Bahahaha!

----------


## lasomeday

If it is an international company that is building. We can only expect a world class building.  Kind of hard not to get excited!

With the last crane coming down we should hear something within the next month or two.  I doubt they would tell the construction workers to hang around for 6 months doing nothing.  That would be a hard thing to ask someone to put their lives on hold for 6 months until a new job may happen.

If they are building downtown. Would they just need to present to the Downtown Design Review Board?  Unless they are getting TIF or other funding or building on city land.  If they do that it will take longer having to get City Council approval.

Just trying to get a timeline together here to see how long it would take and how long these crane operators will be out of work.

----------


## Pete

From all indications, that rendering had nothing to do with MidFirst and was just a conceptual idea by the architects.  I was the one that found and and speculated about MidFirst but I really do think there was nothing to it.

And of course, absolutely no chance it gets built downtown.

----------


## Pete

Sinopec Tower in China:

----------


## lasomeday

Beautiful tower!  I seriously doubt it is them.  They are non-operated holders of interest in wells.  They won't have any operations in OK.  They will just get information from the operators.  

So 0% chance it is them!

----------


## G.Walker

Sinopec also just closed a major deal with Devon, interesting...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...192325500.html

----------


## lasomeday

> Sinopec also just closed a major deal with Devon, interesting...
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...192325500.html


NON-OP!  That means they don't drill or operate any wells.  They just fork over money and get information about the wells.  They don't need people or a tower.  

ITS NOT SINOPEC!

----------


## Bellaboo

> NON-OP!  That means they don't drill or operate any wells.  They just fork over money and get information about the wells.  They don't need people or a tower.  
> 
> ITS NOT SINOPEC!


I wouldn't go out on a limb here and claim who it is or isn't, 'cause not sure any of us here is in the know. I just saw their Chinese Headquarters building that Pete posted.....they obviously have a need for office space......maybe if this will be their US headquarters, they'll have a need here..I sure don't know but wouldn't discredit anything at this point, other than it's NOT Hertz. lol

----------


## SharkSandwich

> NON-OP!  That means they don't drill or operate any wells.  They just fork over money and get information about the wells.  They don't need people or a tower.  
> 
> ITS NOT SINOPEC!


Non-op partners still have a significant interest in keeping abreast of all information and oversight relating to the operations and accounting of their investments.  Sinopec has a $2.5B JV with Devon that we know about.  Imagine what could be on the horizon for their future mid-con investments.  CHK alone has about $10B on the table...

----------


## sroberts24

> From all indications, that rendering had nothing to do with MidFirst and was just a conceptual idea by the architects.  I was the one that found and and speculated about MidFirst but I really do think there was nothing to it.
> 
> And of course, absolutely no chance it gets built downtown.


If I recall correctly, I found it... I might be wrong about that but pretty share I started a thread on it more than 2 years ago.

----------


## G.Walker

according to the article, it looks like they are just now entering U.S. oil plays, and they currently don't have U.S. headquarters.

----------


## G.Walker

from the article:
_
"Sinopec agreed to pay Oklahoma City-based Devon $900 million at closing for the 33% stake in the five fields. Sinopec will also pay $1.6 billion to drill wells in those areas over the next three years.
 Devon will operate the fields, which are located in Ohio, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Michigan and the midcontinent."_

----------


## Bellaboo

In early January, Sinopec bought 1/3 of a play in south Texas....from Chesapeake. They definately have partners located here.

----------


## BDP

> PLMcCord...I have no idea but think it might be very hard. And I'm not sure if the market exists for two tall vertical apt buildings on Classen. Would probably be easier and draw a different market to leave Classen building as offices and do a residential high rise downtown at a later date.


Then again, the Classen is fully leased and starting a wait list. Those go for $1500-$2300 a month. I don't know if the AF buildings would work as apartments, but there is demand.

But I do agree. I want to see something downtown. In fact, if you could plop something like the Classen downtown and have it be a more efficient and modern building with the same amenities, I'd call it home.

----------


## G.Walker

its seems that Sinopec is establishing a U.S. presence, and with major deals with CHK and Devon is stating they have good ties here in Oklahoma. Remember, Devon already stated they will help in recruiting companies to locate here. 

International Company  (check)
No U.S. Headquarters  (check)
Oil & Gas Industry (check)
Relationship with Devon (check)
Money to pull it off (check)

----------


## Just the facts

If the streetcar follows the same pattern as other cities, demand will not be the issue - neighborhoods will be begging for it.

----------


## lasomeday

> its seems that Sinopec is establishing a U.S. presence, and with major deals with CHK and Devon is stating they have good ties here in Oklahoma. Remember, Devon already stated they will help in recruiting companies to locate here. 
> 
> International Company  (check)
> No U.S. Headquarters  (check)
> Oil & Gas Industry (check)
> Relationship with Devon (check)
> Money to pull it off (check)


Whatever!  Keep thinking it is them......

----------


## MDot

> Whatever!  Keep thinking it is them......


Let him do that while you keep thinking it's not them....... =)

----------


## Jesseda

So we all knowa new building will be built.. wonder when we find out who, does anybody know of any future press conferences about new development in downtown

----------


## Bellaboo

> So we all knowa new building will be built.. wonder when we find out who, does anybody know of any future press conferences about new development in downtown


Guaranteed, we'll be the first to know.....

----------


## jccouger

I appreciate and enjoy the speculation G. Walker! These haters need to get their panties out of a bunch.

*sorry for not providing any valuable input, I just wanted to support a poster that I enjoy reading which is what I typically stick to doing on this site.

----------


## Skyline

G. Walker ...... Can you explain your Avatar picture?

It appears to look like the Mystery Tower?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> G. Walker ...... Can you explain your Avatar picture?
> 
> It appears to look like the Mystery Tower?


I sent him a personal message asking him about that... he said he wished!  My guess (since I have to squint at it) is that it's a new WTC design.

----------


## MDot

> I sent him a personal message asking him about that... he said he wished!  My guess (since I have to squint at it) is that it's a new WTC design.


I think it's a rendering of a building in San Francisco.

----------


## MDot

> Yeah, I think it is the Millennium Tower


You are correct, Sid. I didn't know the name, otherwise I would have called it by name.

----------


## G.Walker

yea it is, besides Devon Tower this is my favorite new skyscraper...

----------


## MDot

> yea it is, besides Devon Tower this is my favorite new skyscraper...


My favorite besides Devon is 1180 Peachtree in Atlanta. I have quite a few besides Devon that are new and I really like but that one stands out to me the most.

----------


## GaryOKC6

I just was told from a pretty good source that American Fidelity is going to build a tower.  I am told that it will probably be on the corner of 5th & Broadway.

----------


## lasomeday

> I just was told from a pretty good source that American Fidelity is going to build a tower.  I am told that it will probably be on the corner of 5th & Broadway.


That's a great location!

----------


## gracefor24

> That's a great location!


That's owned by Sandridge.  They haven't shown any inclination to sell those and also it puts you out of the CBD.  Doubtful that's the location.

----------


## Bellaboo

> That's a great location!


+1......

----------


## GaryOKC6

I need to drive by there but I believe they said that there was an old parlikg garage on the location.

----------


## lasomeday

> I need to drive by there but I believe they said that there was an old parlikg garage on the location.


On the Northeast corner of 5th and Broadway there is a parking garage a half block away that is massive! I think the YMCA people use it.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I need to drive by there but I believe they said that there was an old parlikg garage on the location.


I wonder if it's actually the old chamber site ????   that's real close to where were talking here.

----------


## Bellaboo

This may be why the city is 'scouting' where to build a new garage.....

----------


## G.Walker

> I wonder if it's actually the old chamber site ????   that's real close to where were talking here.


that's what I was thinking

----------


## Bellaboo

If that's the case, it's just a vacant field....with a few stacks of big industrial plastic pipe rolled up laying on it, saw it coming home after the game last night.

----------


## SharkSandwich

I think the southwest corner of 5th and Broadway is a surface lot owned by Sandridge.  I believe the northwest corner is a large surface lot used by the YMCA.  The other two corners don't seem to be likely candidates for a new building.

----------


## Urbanized

Parking garage is the former OPUBCO parking garage. It is a half-block east of Broadway on 5th. It was closed after the bombing but re-opened by some investors a number of years ago. It is barely used and would be a great resource for future development in the Automobile Alley district.

The land owned by Sandridge is on the west side of Broadway between 4th and 5th. They also own a similarly-sized lot on the EAST side of Broadway between 5th and 6th, just south of the (currently abandoned) Hale Photo building. Both of these parcels were part of the former Kerr McGee property that was included in the sale from Anadarko to SR through Chesapeake.

I would be surprised if you saw high-rise construction north of 4th on Broadway. It would be counter to the type of development encouraged along that part of that street. The Planning Department's guidelines there suggest buildings with an emphasis on horizontal rather than vertical construction, in keeping with the historic architecture of the district. Due to its proximity to the Pioneer Telephone Building and other taller structures, I could see it being a transitional mid-rise height, but would be surprised if you saw 30 stories or whatever is being guessed at.

----------


## lasomeday

> Parking garage is the former OPUBCO parking garage. It is a half-block east of Broadway on 5th. It was closed after the bombing but re-opened by some investors a number of years ago. It is barely used and would be a great resource for future development in the Automobile Alley district.
> 
> The land owned by Sandridge is on the west side of Broadway between 4th and 5th. They also own a similarly-sized lot on the EAST side of Broadway between 5th and 6th, just south of the (currently abandoned) Hale Photo building. Both of these parcels were part of the former Kerr McGee property that was included in the sale from Anadarko to SR through Chesapeake.
> 
> I would be surprised if you saw high-rise construction north of 4th on Broadway. It would be counter to the type of development encouraged along that part of that street. The Planning Department's guidelines there suggest buildings with an emphasis on horizontal rather than vertical construction, in keeping with the historic architecture of the district. Due to its proximity to the Pioneer Telephone Building and other taller structures, I could see it being a transitional mid-rise height, but would be surprised if you saw 30 stories or whatever is being guessed at.


I think Steve knows, that is why he has disappeared the last few days!

----------


## OKCTalker

> One advantage to turning the AF buildings into housing -- it will create demand for streetcar extension up Classen from the CBD.


"What's old is new again." The ORIGINAL streetcar line went up Classen Boulevard, all the way to the Belle Isle power station which was essentially out in the country back then. That's the reason Classen Boulevard is divided - the rail lines were in the median.

----------


## Skyline

Someone needs to start a tally and keep track of people and their speculating predictions. Especially the people that are saying they have a source, such as this latest with American Fidelity.

----------


## knightrider

Just thought I'd throw this out there.  Insurica and First Fidelity are sister companies to AF.  Currently in the First Fidelity building on classen and NW Expressway, Insurica and First Fidelity might go right along with AF into their new tower if they decide to build one downtown.  Insurica has been acquiring lots of agencies in Texas and California lately and are expanding very rapidly.  Also I know that there was a partership between AF and Alcott HR Group back in 2008. I'm not sure if this was a partnership where AF would gain decision making power or it was simply an affiliation type partnership.  Alcott is out of New York and employs roughly 4,000 people nationwide.  However, I'm not sure if this partnership would be justification for Alcott moving its New York HQ's to OKC.  

http://www.insurica.com/home/company...oubles-in-size

----------


## Pete

Great insight knightrider!

I had not made the First/American Fidelity connection even though they are both owned by the Cameron family and have similar logos.  AF owns the First Fidelity building at 5100 N. Classen but they only paid $5 million for it and could easily sell/lease it, given the dearth of space in that area due to the Chesapeake expansion.  Perhaps CHK would even buy it.

Here's that building; they also own the little "Classen Circle" property due east:






And thanks for the information about their other business relationships.  If you combine all these things under one roof, you'd certainly need a big building and they would no doubt want lots of space for future growth.

----------


## BB37

> "What's old is new again." The ORIGINAL streetcar line went up Classen Boulevard, all the way to the Belle Isle power station which was essentially out in the country back then. That's the reason Classen Boulevard is divided - the rail lines were in the median.


For that matter, many of the older streets with medians (Linwood, Exchange, NE 13th, Lottie, NW19th west of Penn), were streetcar lines.

----------


## Pete

More information about First Fidelity...

They have about $1.2 billion in assets, which isn't huge by any means, but also nothing to sneeze at.

MidFirst has about $10 billion.

----------


## knightrider

The list of Cameron family companies include INSURICA, American Public Life, First Fidelity Bank, First Financial, Asset Services/InvesTrust and Alcott HR Group.  Some of these companies are in the First Fidelity Bank Building some are in the AF HQ's .  They may want to put all these companies under one building but I'm not sure they could currently fill 40+ stories. However, they may have a plan to aggressively grow over the next few years.

----------


## Pete

That's fantastic information, knightrider.  Because these are private companies and the Camerons shun publicity, even those of us that try and stay on top of such things have difficulty.

I was reported in the media several years ago that American Fidelity was definitely interested in downtown and even considered buying what is now SandRidge Tower.  They also expressed interest in the Core to Shore area.

Perhaps they have just been sitting back and watching things unfold and the economy continue to improve.  It may be the time is right to make their move.  If I was them, I wouldn't wait much longer.

Also, they clearly have the capital to finance a big development out of their own pockets.  Plus, they may want the extra space to lease out as an investment.  They clearly have lots of business interests.

----------


## OKCRT

With all these companies being talked about we might see 4-6 new towers downtown in the near future. I really like the idea of the Chinese Co. moving in. OKC is about to hit the BigTime! Are we gonna grow similar to Charlotte or Atlanta? 


BTW,someone please plow the eyesore grain mill with the steel buildings that are in the view from the new westbound 1-40. I drove that stretch yesterday and what an eyesore that is for our city. It needs to be a top priority to get those fugly things bulldozed.

----------


## dmoor82

^^maybe I'm the only one who likes the grittyness the mill adds to the core?

----------


## UncleCyrus

> With all these companies being talked about we might see 4-6 new towers downtown in the near future. I really like the idea of the Chinese Co. moving in. OKC is about to hit the BigTime! Are we gonna grow similar to Charlotte or Atlanta?


While it is exciting to think about more additions to the skyline, I am NOT looking forward to more vehicle traffic in the CBD.

----------


## Teo9969

> ^^maybe I'm the only one who likes the grittyness the mill adds to the core?


I don't mind it. I'd rather it stay than be grass or surface parking.

----------


## metro

4-6 new towers, why stop there, why not 100! Let's move the Eiffel tower and Dubai here too. Manmade islands, indoor skiing, yachts!

----------


## MDot

> I don't mind it. I'd rather it stay than be grass or surface parking.


I remember someone saying it would be tore down in a year or 2.

----------


## dmoor82

> 4-6 new towers, why stop there, why not 100! Let's move the Eiffel tower and Dubai here too. Manmade islands, indoor skiing, yachts!


Lol,while funny,remember this is also a SPECULATION thread!

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> 4-6 new towers, why stop there, why not 100! Let's move the Eiffel tower and Dubai here too. Manmade islands, indoor skiing, yachts!


Metro, yooooou craaaaaazy!

----------


## dmoor82

4-6 new towers?Maybe not but 2-3 within the next few Years is not that far fetched!

----------


## Dustin

> indoor skiing


Now this I wouldn't mind!

----------


## metro

> Metro, yooooou craaaaaazy!


LOL it was an exaggerated post of how many on this thread sound.

----------


## wschnitt

> 4-6 new towers, why stop there, why not 100! Let's move the Eiffel tower and Dubai here too. Manmade islands, indoor skiing, yachts!


We are already getting indoor surfing in the new boathouse!!

----------


## gracefor24

SD owns the lots on the SW and NE corner of 5th and Broadway.  Either way a tower might be out of place at that place.  I'd rather see a 10 story building that filled the whole lot and interacted with AA better.  Build the tower in the CBD.  This is assuming it's at least 30 stories.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> LOL it was an exaggerated post of how many on this thread sound.


Oh, I know. I hear it (you crazy) in my head from a movie but I just can't think of it...

----------


## Just the facts

> 4-6 new towers?Maybe not but 2-3 within the next few Years is not that far fetched!


Once the streetcar starts laying some track I can easily see multiple residential towers in the 10 to 20 story range being built.  It was mentioned earlier but what are there height restrictions along the proposed streetcar route?

----------


## OKCRT

So 4-6 new towers downtown in the next 10 years is far fetched? 

Don't think so... When a city starts to take off it doesn't just stop all of a sudden.

----------


## Teo9969

> So 4-6 new towers downtown in the next 10 years is far fetched? 
> 
> Don't think so... When a city starts to take off it doesn't just stop all of a sudden.


Depends on what we're defining as towers.

I think 4-6 400ft+ (~25 stories+) is probably a little ambitious to even be announced for the next 10 years. But if we're talking about including towers between 10 and 20 stories, I think that it's perfectly reasonable.

----------


## sroberts24

> Depends on what we're defining as towers.
> 
> I think 4-6 400ft+ (~25 stories+) is probably a little ambitious to even be announced for the next 10 years. But if we're talking about including towers between 10 and 20 stories, I think that it's perfectly reasonable.


Well yeah if you think about it... 

- Sandridge Ammenities Building - 4 stories
- Sandridge New Tower - 10-30 stories
- Bricktown Hotel next to Hampton - 11 stories
- Aloft - 7 Stories
- Convention Center Hotel - 15-30 stories
- Mystery Tower - 20-40 stories
- Possible 2nd Mystery Tower - 20-40 stories
- Hopefully Residential - 15-30 stories

i really think it is quite possible if you believe some of the rumors

Might be wishful thinking but we are already getting a bunch of infill and thats not including all the appartments goin in at midtown and deep duece

----------


## lasomeday

Maybe in 3 to 4 years a Continental Tower. They are growing at an insane pace!  At the rate they are growing the will double in size every three years.

----------


## G.Walker

here is what I realistically see happening in the next few years:

*ONE* 40+ story skyscraper
27 story CC Hotel
25 story Sandridge Tower

----------


## dmoor82

I can see two towers over 500'ft tall being constructed within 3 years!Just my opinion!

----------


## Teo9969

> I can see two towers over 500'ft tall being constructed within 3 years!Just my opinion!


constructed = finished or constructed = announced?

----------


## dmoor82

> constructed = finished or constructed = announced?


announced and construction started!Like I said,I dont want to get people all rowled up,it's just what I see happening.

----------


## BrettM2

> here is what I realistically see happening in the next few years:
> 
> *ONE* 40+ story skyscraper
> 27 story CC Hotel
> 25 story Sandridge Tower


I don't think anyone could be unhappy if this is "all we got."  That would be amazing boost for downtown.  Anything more than this is just gravy.

----------


## G.Walker

yep!

----------


## dmoor82

> here is what I realistically see happening in the next few years:
> 
> *ONE* 40+ story skyscraper
> 27 story CC Hotel
> 25 story Sandridge Tower


I would add one more!But if there were a "like" button here on OKCTalk like there is on Facebook,I would like this!

----------


## G.Walker

I personally don't want to see any high-rise residential. Why should be we like other cities? I would rather have more residential developments like The Edge and Level with massive shiny office towers in the background! That would be something!

----------


## dmoor82

G.Walker,I take it your not a big fan of the Miami skyline?

----------


## G.Walker

No, I am more of a fan of office tower skylines like Houston, Philadelphia, and LA. Not high rise condo skylines like Miami, Austin, and Vancouver.

----------


## Richard at Remax

> I personally don't want to see any high-rise residential. Why should be we like other cities? I would rather have more residential developments like The Edge and Level with massive shiny office towers in the background! That would be something!


Dislike. You wouldn't want this? Museum Tower - Dallas - 42 Floors - 560' 



Sign me up

----------


## dmoor82

^^Looking into OKC's future?I bet we see a residential tower about this height going up about the same time as the mystery tower!

----------


## G.Walker

> Dislike. You wouldn't want this? Museum Tower - Dallas - 42 Floors - 560' 
> 
> 
> 
> Sign me up


that is a beautiful high rise condo, but I would rather have 4 of these below, to that 1 high rise condo:

----------


## knightrider

Does anyone have any insight on the vacancy rates of Park Harvey Apartments, Regency Tower, Founders Tower?  Are they full?  I understand that these tower style condos/apartmets are no where near the neatness of the Museum Tower concept above.  But what is the true likelyhood OKC gets a residencial tower downtown.  Is the OKC market really ready for a residential tower.  I don't know for sure but to me a residential tower seems to be the most speculative of the ideas posted.

----------


## dmoor82

Regency is at 97-98 %!

----------


## knightrider

> Regency is at 97-98 %!


Wow I had no idea.  That is pretty amazing.  Maybe a residential tower is not too lofty of an idea after all.

----------


## Just the facts

> ^^Looking into OKC's future?I bet we see a residential tower about this height going up about the same time as the mystery tower!


Didn't you come within a few feet of telling us the exact height of Devon Tower while it was still a rumor?

----------


## G.Walker

As for my opinion, its not about height, its about creating a ground level urban environment, with urban corners, and pedestrian interaction. Gosh I am starting to sound like Kerry!  :Sofa:

----------


## dmoor82

> Wow I had no idea. That is pretty amazing. Maybe a residential tower is not too lofty of an idea after all.


Maybe Pete or someone knows but I think all of dt residential is doing very well!

----------


## Just the facts

> As for my opinion, its not about height, its about creating a ground level urban environment, with urban corners, and pedestrian interaction. Gosh I am starting to sound like Kerry!


I'm telling you - that is a slippery slope.

----------


## Pete

Here is a survey done by Price Edwards at the end of 2011.

Properties of interest are highlighted...  All are very full:

----------


## dmoor82

Yeah,I would take either of those buildings G.Walker posted,both are very nice!

----------


## Just the facts

So the lowest on the list is Park Harvey at 89% and they don't even have parking.

----------


## dmoor82

Thanks Pete!

----------


## Pete

Park Harvey has also had to endure the cacophony and mess from the Devon and P180 projects.

That 89% is pretty remarkable, especially given the parking situation as mentioned.

----------


## lasomeday

Its possible to have both.  It can have the retail on the bottom floor and rise up 40 stories.  I think a mix of residential and office towers would make us more attactive to the younger crowd.  They can choose between high rise downtown or Deep Deuce.  

I think the more options available the more people will want to live here.  Kind of like having a larger variety of jobs!

My favorite residential tower is definitely Aqua in Chicago. 

http://www.dailytonic.com/aqua-tower...tects-chicago/

----------


## dmoor82

So maybe a new residential tower might be a mix between condos,apartments and retail?Whats the biggest need?

----------


## dmoor82

> Its possible to have both. It can have the retail on the bottom floor and rise up 40 stories. I think a mix of residential and office towers would make us more attactive to the younger crowd. They can choose between high rise downtown or Deep Deuce. 
> 
> I think the more options available the more people will want to live here. Kind of like having a larger variety of jobs!
> 
> My favorite residential tower is definitely Aqua in Chicago. 
> 
> http://www.dailytonic.com/aqua-tower...tects-chicago/


ohhh,Aqua is stunning!

----------


## Teo9969

IMO, Museum Tower is just flat not that good looking. The last two times I've been to Dallas in the past year, I have thought it to be a very uninteresting building.

That being said, both days it was grey outside...it may be better in the sunlight.

I'm between G. Walker and those wanting a skyscraper residential. I'd rather have two high-rise residential buildings in the 15 to 20 story range (200 to 300 ft...a la The Classen or Mid-America) than one 40 story building or four 5 to 10 story buildings.

----------


## G.Walker

My ideal downtown urban environment would consist of one 800ft skyscraper, two 700ft skyscrapers, three 600ft skyscrapers, with the majority of them all glass with a modern curtain wall. But I would have one thrown in there with late 70's box style architecture (I am a fan of these building, don't ask me why). My urban core would be surrounded with mid-rise residential consisting of mostly brick architecture, mostly all 6-10 stories, all with streetcar access and pedestrian friendly walkways, and bicycle lanes.

----------


## dmoor82

> Basically, I would love to see everything on Classen Curve downtown. Imagine if CHK had built a tower and brought all those businesses downtown...


No doubt,we all know how much money CHK has invested in that area and if they had invested all that into dt it would be an awesome sight,though I like that area of town and what is has turned out to be!

----------


## knightrider

That is amazing to have that high of occupancy rate.  I'm baffled.  With these occupancy rates it seems it would be easy for a DT grocery store to be successful......but that's for another thread.

----------


## Just the facts

You need to go to Philadelphia G.Walker.

----------


## Pete

> Those numbers seem really incredible Pete.  Is that normal for a DT our size to have that high of an occupancy rate?   Based on those numbers, do you think that a residential tower is imminent?


Keep in mind all these projects are relatively new and our total number of units downtown is still pretty microscopic.

The real test of the market will be when both Level and The Edge open...  If all the other properties maintain their occupancy rates (and higher-than-average rents), then I think you'll see a bunch more projects get queued up.

The condo market is a different animal but that seems to be firming up as well.  The one for-sale project that was a homerun was the Centennial so that tells me that a well-located project with amenities and views might do well even in the current market.  Let's face it, it's the one thing we still don't have:  downtown high-rise condos.

----------


## lasomeday

> So maybe a new residential tower might be a mix between condos,apartments and retail?Whats the biggest need?


ALL of the above!  I think condos between $120k-200k would sell.  The demand for apartments is very high though.  A lot of Health Science and ACM want to live downtown, but there aren't a lot of options.

Does anyone know how the leasing of Level is doing?  I heard it is filling fast.  I heard that over 250 have applied.

If they start a residential tower now. In 2 years it would be full depending on the rates and how many they have.

----------


## lasomeday

It would be awesome if they converted all of City Place and First National into residential.

----------


## Pete

The lack of parking for those two structures is a big issue.

I'm hoping that once downtown really gets raging that it will finally make financial sense to tear down the eastern sections of the FNC and build a new parking structure, perhaps with a pool and recreation facilities on top.  Then, First National Tower would make a perfect hotel or condo project, or a combo of the two.

----------


## dmoor82

Steve hasn't posted on this thread in a while,wonder what He's hearing?

----------


## lasomeday

> The lack of parking for those two structures is a big issue.
> 
> I'm hoping that once downtown really gets raging that it will finally make financial sense to tear down the eastern sections of the FNC and build a new parking structure, perhaps with a pool and recreation facilities on top.  Then, First National Tower would make a perfect hotel or condo project, or a combo of the two.


NO!  The don't need to touch that block!  That is the worst idea I have ever heard.  They could redo the parking garage to the south of it and make it taller with better access to the First National and add the facilities you suggested.  That way you don't see the back of the First National block.  Then get rid of the Century Century and build residential there and a parking facility at the base with retail.

----------


## lasomeday

> Steve hasn't posted on this thread in a while,wonder what He's hearing?


He has disappeared from his blog too!  He is up to something!  I know it!

----------


## mcca7596

> NO!  The don't need to touch that block!  That is the worst idea I have ever heard.


Unless said parking structure had really cool street level retail.

Maybe the new buyers of the Century Center garage are going to buy the First National and convert it into housing. They'll have parking right south of them. (I can dream :Smile: )

----------


## dankrutka

> He has disappeared from his blog too!  He is up to something!  I know it!


He's writing a book.

----------


## king183

> He has disappeared from his blog too!  He is up to something!  I know it!


Yes, he's doing his day job as a reporter plus writing an ambitious book.

----------


## Pete

At one time, the parking structure south of First National was part of the same ownership.  It got spun off in the 80's then the tower donated to charity.  Also, I seriously doubt they could just build on top of it as it's older and wasn't built with that idea in mind, unlike the garage Devon bought.  In fact, the almost new City Center East garage can't even be expanded.

I'm hearing that the Century Center will be bought by a local group and renovated, but probably not expanded.  Just remodel the empty space for office use and keep the parking as-is.


There is a serious need for parking for both City Place and FNC and without it, both will be limited.

----------


## wschnitt

> the lack of parking for those two structures is a big issue.
> 
> I'm hoping that once downtown really gets raging that it will finally make financial sense to tear down the eastern sections of the fnc and build a new parking structure, perhaps with a pool and recreation facilities on top.  Then, first national tower would make a perfect hotel or condo project, or a combo of the two.


awful idea!!

----------


## BoulderSooner

if tearing down FNC east(not fnc) .. to build a big garage .. meant that FNC became a hotel/condo tower ...   then IMHO it would be 100% worth it

----------


## BrettM2

> awful idea!!


Pete's not wanting to touch any of the actual tower, just the annexes built at later dates.  I'm with Boulder on this one... if a parking garage is all it takes to bring the FNC back to life then I hope it gets done ASAP.

----------


## edcrunk

Those annexes are such an eyesore.

----------


## lasomeday

> At one time, the parking structure south of First National was part of the same ownership.  It got spun off in the 80's then the tower donated to charity.  Also, I seriously doubt they could just build on top of it as it's older and wasn't built with that idea in mind, unlike the garage Devon bought.  In fact, the almost new City Center East garage can't even be expanded.
> 
> I'm hearing that the Century Center will be bought by a local group and renovated, but probably not expanded.  Just remodel the empty space for office use and keep the parking as-is.
> 
> 
> There is a serious need for parking for both City Place and FNC and without it, both will be limited.


I didn't say build on top.  Tear both of those parking garages down and start from scratch with something more modern like I said above.  That is the best solution.  We don't need to touch the street wall we aleady have on Park.

----------


## Pete

Most people don't understand that the tower itself extends almost half-way down that block.  And the far east end is not part of the owner property.

It's the two crappy buildings in the middle that are an eyesore and generally empty.  Believe me, a parking garage with ground-floor retail would be an aesthetic improvement over what is there and would finally make the property viable.

The tower doesn't make sense as a modern office building and it can't be a hotel or condos without parking and amenities, which is why it is still floundering while everything around them is surging.

There is the current ownership issue but once that is settled there is going to have to be a bigger plan for that complex otherwise it's going to continue to rot.  And be a big hole in the middle of downtown.

----------


## wschnitt

> Pete's not wanting to touch any of the actual tower, just the annexes built at later dates.  I'm with Boulder on this one... if a parking garage is all it takes to bring the FNC back to life then I hope it gets done ASAP.


Let me look on google maps.  I might want to recant my statement.

----------


## wschnitt

I hope he is talking about the buildings midblock on park.  I envisioned the sandstone building on Broadway.

----------


## Pete

You can keep the street wall on Park, just do it with parking and retail at the bottom.  Would be no less dead than the ugly, empty office space currently above.

The Century Center is in the process of being sold, and there are already plans for it which actually takes the parking away from the city and puts it into private hands.

The large garage immediately south of FNC is already nine levels.  You really couldn't make it much taller and have it be practical.


The buildings in the center of the CBD are choked for parking and unless the Myriad comes down, I don't see many suitable sites anywhere close.

----------


## Pete

Here's a link to the diagrams for First National Center:

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...231#post452231

----------


## G.Walker

shouldn't all this talk about FNC, be in the FNC thread? just sayin...

----------


## lasomeday

> Most people don't understand that the tower itself extends almost half-way down that block.  And the far east end is not part of the owner property.
> 
> It's the two crappy buildings in the middle that are an eyesore and generally empty.  Believe me, a parking garage with ground-floor retail would be an aesthetic improvement over what is there and would finally make the property viable.
> 
> The tower doesn't make sense as a modern office building and it can't be a hotel or condos without parking and amenities, which is why it is still floundering while everything around them is surging.
> 
> There is the current ownership issue but once that is settled there is going to have to be a bigger plan for that complex otherwise it's going to continue to rot.  And be a big hole in the middle of downtown.


It will be a big mess.  The inside of this block is park of the Concourse (underground) that connects the city. It is a walkway that everyone downtown uses on windy/cold/wet days.  It serves its purpose and functions.  The buildings are a throw back to the 50s and aren't that bad. The building at the corner of Park and Broadway is a beautiful building.  They are not empty.  Cafe 7 is moving in and there is also retail that faces the street and the inside walkway.  If you worked downtown you would see this.

Anyways. This block should not be destroyed for parking. The block to the south is the biggest eyesore!  It should be replaced.  The streetwall that you want to destroy will not be the same.

Century Center is the biggest blight for downtown!  The horrible relationship to the street and the short stature of the building makes it a waste of space. Not to mention the ugly orange color!

The Myriad has parking. Lots of parking!

----------


## Just the facts

If you replaced the annex with parking garages you could put residential ammenites on the roof of the parking garage (tennis courts, basketball, swimming pool, garden).  Who wouldn't want to lay by the pool 200' above Park Ave?

----------


## lasomeday

> I just was told from a pretty good source that American Fidelity is going to build a tower.  I am told that it will probably be on the corner of 5th & Broadway.


So, if this guy knows then we should be pretty close to hearing something.  The dismantling of the last crane will be done tomorrow!  I think if news is leaking they are getting close. I think we should hear something by the first of April!

----------


## Pete

> The building at the corner of Park and Broadway is a beautiful building. They are not empty. Cafe 7 is moving in and there is also retail that faces the street and the inside walkway.


The building at Park & Broadway is not part of the First National Center and not what I am talking about.

Cafe 7 is going into the tower...  And I'm not saying the retail is empty, I'm saying the office space above it is and has been for a very long time.

I'm very familiar with the First National concourse and what is there; all that could be rebuilt or preserved.  It's a far cry from what it once was even in the 80's.


The Cox Center has 900 spaces making it the smallest of the city-owned garages in an area of four complete city blocks.  If the Cox was demolished, you could have a much larger vertical garage plus plenty of room for more development.

----------


## BDP

There you go. Tear down the cox center. Restore Broadway to Reno. Build 3-4 towers there with street front retail and a big fat parking garage than can serve the CBD during the day and bricktown at night. EVEREYONE would be happy. More praking. More development. And more than on street that goes all the way through downtown.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> There you go. Tear down the cox center. Restore Broadway to Reno. Build 3-4 towers there with street front retail and a big fat parking garage than can serve the CBD during the day and bricktown at night. EVEREYONE would be happy. More praking. More development. And more than on street that goes all the way through downtown.


we are a long way away from even talking about the cox going away

----------


## Pete

> There you go. Tear down the cox center. Restore Broadway to Reno. Build 3-4 towers there with street front retail and a big fat parking garage than can serve the CBD during the day and bricktown at night. EVEREYONE would be happy. More praking. More development. And more than on street that goes all the way through downtown.


The problem with that is 1) it's not going to happen any time soon and 2) is completely outside the control of anyone that might be interested in redeveloping FNC.

So, unless a developer was to add their own on-site parking, nothing is going to happen to FNC for at least another 10 years.

And that parking study only identifies possible locations nowhere near FNC.


This is a big issue if we ever hope for the middle of the CBD to come back to life.

----------


## lasomeday

The biggest problem is the ownership of the building.  After that is resolved then we will see some change. Until then nothing will happen.  

Anyways!  Back to the Mystery Tower or Towers!

So, has anyone heard anything about the Preftakes block?  There has to be something happening there!  That is what I am going to call Tower 2!

----------


## betts

I hope, if the Preftakes block goes, that they can somehow preserve the stonework on the city building.  It's really beautiful and I hate to see it end up in a landfill somewhere.  I was thinking Sandridge had bought the 5th and  Broadway parking lot, so I don't know why that would be the location of a MidContinent tower, but I suppose I could be thinking of a different lot.

----------


## BDP

> we are a long way away from even talking about the cox going away





> The problem with that is 1) it's not going to happen any time soon and 2) is completely outside the control of anyone that might be interested in redeveloping FNC.


I know, I know. I was just seeing how far I could take it (speculation/absurdities thread.)

But it does make you realize that, one day, that massive block will be a huge void and its redevelopment will be key to tying everything together.

----------


## lasomeday

> Well a couple weeks ago my brother (who works for chesapeke)told me that that there is a big oil company that is looking to build its headquarter here, I wish I would've paid attention  to the name!


A guy in my Sunday School class that works at Chesapeake said the same thing.  He said he couldn't remember the name of the company. I guess Chesapeake people are in the know!  I am having dinner with a few of them tomorrow night and will see the guy again on Sunday!  Hopefully I can get some info then.

----------


## G.Walker

> I hope, if the Preftakes block goes, that they can somehow preserve the stonework on the city building.  It's really beautiful and I hate to see it end up in a landfill somewhere.  I was thinking Sandridge had bought the 5th and  Broadway parking lot, so I don't know why that would be the location of a MidContinent tower, but I suppose I could be thinking of a different lot.


MidContinent?

----------


## Pete

> I hope, if the Preftakes block goes, that they can somehow preserve the stonework on the city building.  It's really beautiful and I hate to see it end up in a landfill somewhere.  I was thinking Sandridge had bought the 5th and  Broadway parking lot, so I don't know why that would be the location of a MidContinent tower, but I suppose I could be thinking of a different lot.


The city building would never be razed -- it's protected.

I think they meant 4th & Broadway, the grassy lot by the YMCA.

----------


## Pete

> I know, I know. I was just seeing how far I could take it (speculation/absurdities thread.)
> 
> But it does make you realize that, one day, that massive block will be a huge void and its redevelopment will be key to tying everything together.


Completely agree.  At the very least I wish they would try and do something with the west side that faces Robinson.  It's just a windowless, lifeless concrete monolith on a major downtown artery and facing the park.  It's difficult to even walk past it on the west and especially the east side.

----------


## betts

> MidContinent?


I meant American Fidelity.  Don't know where Midcontinent came from.





> The city building would never be razed -- it's protected.
> 
> I think they meant 4th & Broadway, the grassy lot by the YMCA.


Glad to hear that about the city building.  It's too nice to tear down, on the exterior, at least.  And, the grassy knoll makes more sense, although it might spoil some of my view!

----------


## Pete

> The biggest problem is the ownership of the building.  After that is resolved then we will see some change. Until then nothing will happen.


That building will have had six different owners since the 80's and it's only gone downhill.  I don't see that changing unless one of the scenarios I've outlined plays out.

Given the choice, I'd much rather see FNC completely renovated and brought back to life than a new tower built.

----------


## metro

Here is the latest Mystery Tower rendering, subject to slight modifications.

----------


## MDot

^^it appears to be REALLY tall.

----------


## lasomeday

A lot of girth too!

----------


## skanaly

A big hairy face in a bunch of grass would really tie the skyline together! amazing! lol

----------


## lasomeday

Kind of off the topic again.  (Its what I do)  Discovered a new website today.

Skyscraper Center 

http://skyscrapercenter.com/index.php

----------


## BlackmoreRulz

Apologies for my ignorance but what is Preftakes?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Apologies for my ignorance but what is Preftakes?


It is the owner of all the properties on the block due west of the Devon Tower.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Kind of off the topic again.  (Its what I do)  Discovered a new website today.
> 
> Skyscraper Center 
> 
> http://skyscrapercenter.com/index.php


Need to get some Cooper and/or Hider Photos on that site...no photos of the Devon Tower, yet.

----------


## lasomeday

How about this in place of the Century Center?

----------


## Beastboii

> How about this in place of the Century Center?


Sexy

----------


## OKCRT

That thing looks like a piece of costume jewelry.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Put together with toothpicks...must be photoshop.

----------


## Spartan

> How about this in place of the Century Center?


Lasomeday, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT RENDERING?!?!? oO

----------


## Just the facts

I would like to see what the street level activity is like at that corner.  Does anyone know what City that is in?

----------


## Jesseda

that building looks ugly, it reminds me of a boat caught in a fishing net

----------


## metro

3 of the same pictures in 5 posts, really? Why?

----------


## lasomeday

> I would like to see what the street level activity is like at that corner.  Does anyone know what City that is in?


Its in Tokyo and the street is busy like any other Tokyo street. The building is not suburban look at me style.  It has great interaction with the sidewalk and street.

----------


## lasomeday

> How about this in place of the Century Center?


Its the Mode Gakuen Cocoon Tower in Tokyo, Japan.  I love it!  It is totally different than anything else built in North America.

----------


## soonermike81

> Its the Mode Gakuen Cocoon Tower in Tokyo, Japan.  I love it!  It is totally different than anything else built in North America.


I was in Tokyo about 6 years ago and don't recall seeing that one, is it newer?  Personally, I think it looks terrible and doesn't seem to blend with the rest of the buildings in any way.

----------


## Rover

Most new architecture in the US is boring compared to what is happening in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Shanghai, Tokyo and any number of other international cities.  Architects here tend to play it pretty safe and boring....and their corporate clients tend to water it down.  I would love to see something here with a little imagination with some local flare (giant teepee shape, or twisting tornado like tower, or futuristic oil derrick, or.......)  Instead we get basically square, symmetric, boring designs.  I love Devon and it is a HUGE leap for OKC, and one of the most striking in the US, but it really isn't creative or imaginative.  Would love to have a STATEMENT building.

----------


## Rover

> I was in Tokyo about 6 years ago and don't recall seeing that one, is it newer?  Personally, I think it looks terrible and doesn't seem to blend with the rest of the buildings in any way.


They don't want it to "blend in with the rest of the buildings".  They want distinct.  They want noticeable.  They want it posted on sites halfway around the world with people asking whose building it is and where it is. They want you to look at it and comment.  Bravo to them and the board that approved it. This is the red bow tie with a tuxedo.

----------


## Just the facts

> Its in Tokyo and the street is busy like any other Tokyo street. The building is not suburban look at me style.  It has great interaction with the sidewalk and street.


Have you seen that buidling at street level?  There is almost zero interaction between the sidewalk and that building.  I didn't see anything that would invite someone walking by to enter unless they worked in it.  Many of the surrounding building were the same way and seperated from the sidewalk by large plazas.  The top 500' might be cool but the first 10' leave much to be desired.  Of course, there do appear to be access point to underground areas so maybe most of the activity is taking place below street level.

----------


## Rover

> Have you seen that buidling at street level?  There is almost zero interaction between the sidewalk and that building.  I didn't see anything that would invite someone walking by to enter unless they worked in it.  Many of the surrounding building were the same way and seperated from the sidewalk by large plazas.  The top 500' might be cool but the first 10' leave much to be desired.  Of course, there do appear to be access point to underground areas so maybe most of the activity is taking place below street level.


Of course this isn't worthy in your eyes.  It was only the 2008 Skyscraper of the Year by Emporis.com.  It was awarded by the jury for its "expressive design and the remarkable environment it provides its users".  It serves almost 10,000 students, including students of a major design institute and is a gateway building for arriving commuters at the business district. But it doesn't involve flat-front up to the sidewalk surface at ground level with retail stores lining the sidewalk, and it has some greenery around it..so it doesn't meet the JTF 5 star urban scale.  LOL.

----------


## Teo9969

> of course this isn't worthy in your eyes.  It was only the 2008 skyscraper of the year by emporis.com.  It was awarded by the jury for its "expressive design and the remarkable environment it provides its users".  It serves almost 10,000 students, including students of a major design institute and is a gateway building for arriving commuters at the business district. But it doesn't involve flat-front up to the sidewalk surface at ground level with retail stores lining the sidewalk, and it has some greenery around it..so it doesn't meet the jtf 5 star new urban scale.  Lol.


fify ;-)

----------


## Teo9969

> ,,,I would love to see something here with a little imagination with some local flare (giant teepee shape, or twisting tornado like tower, *or futuristic oil derrick,* or.......)  Instead we get basically square, symmetric, boring designs.  ...


Would love to see someone design this kind of building and throw it in a "my dream skyline" rendering.

----------


## Pete

That's a cool looking building but like so many radical designs, it sacrifices a lot for aesthetics.

Virtually every window would be somewhat blocked by that outside structure, which is why so many buildings are all-glass.

The crazier you get with design the less practical they are bound to be.  Considering most the companies building in the U.S. are owned by thousands of shareholders, there is a certain level of responsibility that needs to be maintained.

----------


## Just the facts

> Of course this isn't worthy in your eyes.  It was only the 2008 Skyscraper of the Year by Emporis.com.  It was awarded by the jury for its "expressive design and the remarkable environment it provides its users".  It serves almost 10,000 students, including students of a major design institute and is a gateway building for arriving commuters at the business district. But it doesn't involve flat-front up to the sidewalk surface at ground level with retail stores lining the sidewalk, and it has some greenery around it..so it doesn't meet the JTF 5 star urban scale.  LOL.


Stage center won an award also - big deal.  They give them out every year so getting one is no great accomplishment.  It's not like winning the Triple Crown.

The fact is the building might look cool from an aerial shot or from 5 miles away - but up close and personal, it doesn't get the job done to create a vibrant pedestrian atmosphere.  I want a downtown OKC that functions for the people living in it - not one that looks great from I-40 and Air Depot.

----------


## Rover

> Stage center won an award also - big deal.  They give them out every year so getting one is no great accomplishment.  It's not like winning the Triple Crown.
> 
> The fact is the building might look cool from an aerial shot or from 5 miles away - but up close and personal, it doesn't get the job done to create a vibrant pedestrian atmosphere.  I want a downtown OKC that functions for the people living in it - not one that looks great from I-40 and Air Depot.


LOL.  There is no idea that is worthy if it differs from your own, I guess.    I assume you have been at the building in Tokyo to render the expert opinion, or like so many, live life through google.

I have been involved around the world with some fabulous construction projects that were aesthetically unique and wonderful and also quite functional.  The idea that the two are incompatible is just dismissive thinking.  There are architects who consider both very well and some great buildings in the world.  I know first hand.

----------


## soonermike81

> They don't want it to "blend in with the rest of the buildings".  They want distinct.  They want noticeable.  They want it posted on sites halfway around the world with people asking whose building it is and where it is. They want you to look at it and comment.  Bravo to them and the board that approved it. This is the red bow tie with a tuxedo.


I understand wanting distinct and noticeable, but that building is a little too much if you ask me.  From what I remember of Tokyo's skyline, there was little to be desired.  There are just ton of buildings that all looked alike with nothing that tall (I understand that it's due to earthquakes).  They could have easily done something a little less obnoxious and have it stand out by a mile and look somewhat normal at the same time.  Just my opinion.

----------


## soonermike81

Then again, it's been 6-7 years since I've been so I'm not even sure how their skyline has evolved since then.

----------


## metro

> They don't want it to "blend in with the rest of the buildings".  They want distinct.  They want noticeable.  They want it posted on sites halfway around the world with people asking whose building it is and where it is. They want you to look at it and comment.  Bravo to them and the board that approved it. This is the red bow tie with a tuxedo.


 This. US architecture is too safe. I love that building, would show off OKC's new image VERY well.

----------


## kevinpate

> Here is the latest Mystery Tower rendering, subject to slight modifications.


what the AICCM could look like once they kill the project and some eccentric putz takes over the land?

----------


## Just the facts

> LOL.  There is no idea that is worthy if it differs from your own, I guess.    I assume you have been at the building in Tokyo to render the expert opinion, or like so many, live life through google.
> 
> I have been involved around the world with some fabulous construction projects that were aesthetically unique and wonderful and also quite functional.  The idea that the two are incompatible is just dismissive thinking.  There are architects who consider both very well and some great buildings in the world.  I know first hand.


I am not saying that design and function are not compatible.  A building can be attractive in its totality - meaning what it looks like when you can see the whole thing all in one field of vision.  Then there is how the building interacts with the users inside the building.  But there is also an element of how the building interacts with the surrounding neighborhood.  I am talking about this third type of interaction.  Look at some of the building around this one that are much shorter but have retail, restaurants, and professional service space.  They add life and vibrancy to the people on the sidewalk - this building does not do that.  To the pedestrian it is a really tall thing that stands between them and where they want to go, even if it does look good in the picture taken from the helicopter.

Most architects are only interested in designing buildings.  For the most part, their concerns end at the property line.  I am interested in creating neighborhoods and urban districts.  That is the only point I was trying to make.

----------


## soonerguru

What do you guys do for a living? I would love to work someplace where I could post on OKCTALK all day. Lol

----------


## MikeLucky

> What do you guys do for a living? I would love to work someplace where I could post on OKCTALK all day. Lol


If you don't work at a place where you are able to post on a message board all day... well then... it's YOUR fault. lol

----------


## architect5311

> I understand wanting distinct and noticeable, but that building is a little too much if you ask me.  From what I remember of Tokyo's skyline, there was little to be desired.  *There are just ton of buildings that all looked alike* with nothing that tall (I understand that it's due to earthquakes).  They could have easily done something a little less obnoxious and have it stand out by a mile and look somewhat normal at the same time.  Just my opinion.


What? You just said in above post the building doesn't blend with surrounding buildings?


Tokyo Skyline...looks pretty good to me.

----------


## Just the facts

> What do you guys do for a living? I would love to work someplace where I could post on OKCTALK all day. Lol


Some people take smoke breaks or chat around the water cooler/coffee pot.  And some people chat on OKCTalk.  Personally, I work for myself and don't smoke.  It's not a bad way to live.

----------


## Rover

> I am not saying that design and function are not compatible.  A building can be attractive in its totality - meaning what it looks like when you can see the whole thing all in one field of vision.  Then there is how the building interacts with the users inside the building.  But there is also an element of how the building interacts with the surrounding neighborhood.  I am talking about this third type of interaction.  Look at some of the building around this one that are much shorter but have retail, restaurants, and professional service space.  They add life and vibrancy to the people on the sidewalk - this building does not do that.  To the pedestrian it is a really tall thing that stands between them and where they want to go, even if it does look good in the picture taken from the helicopter.
> 
> Most architects are only interested in designing buildings.  For the most part, their concerns end at the property line.  I am interested in creating neighborhoods and urban districts.  That is the only point I was trying to make.


So, you are saying you have been to *this* site at ground level and analyzed the interactions with the neighborhood?  It brings 10,000 people to the business district.  Seems to me that would make a lot of neighborhood things possible.  I just don't think every building has to look like 1920's New York City at street level to be effective and vital in the neighborhood.  And every business district is not a residential/shopping district anyway.

----------


## soonermike81

> What? You just said in above post the building doesn't blend with surrounding buildings?
> 
> 
> Tokyo Skyline...looks pretty good to me.


Yeah, I think either someone just got an amazing photo or a lot has happened since I was there; or I could just be flat out wrong.  From my memory, the Tokyo Tower (Eiffel Tower look-a-like) was by far the tallest structure there, and nothing around it was even close to as tall.  My fiancee, who spent a semester there, agrees.  Maybe it just looked that way to us while we were there, and we never got a good view from afar.  That view of the Tokyo skyline is pretty awesome though!  And I actually can't even tell where that building in question is located from this picture... so maybe it does blend in well after all.  Still looks ugly up close if you ask me.

----------


## Rover

> What do you guys do for a living? I would love to work someplace where I could post on OKCTALK all day. Lol


Probably do take to much time on the site.  Also LOL.

I travel a lot and read and post from airports, coffee shops, on the plane, etc.  And, I often work very long days into the evening, so I take breaks occasionally during all times of the day and open the OKCTalk window. I am the boss, so I rarely get in trouble for doing this.  I enjoy the varying viewpoints (yes, JTF, even yours :-) ) and like the interaction among the core posters.  I am intensely interested in the city I have loved for several decades and having been involved in the construction industry for 3 decades, I enjoy the information on all the developments.  OKCTalk is interesting and entertaining.

----------


## betts

> Yeah, I think either someone just got an amazing photo or a lot has happened since I was there; or I could just be flat out wrong.  From my memory, the Tokyo Tower (Eiffel Tower look-a-like) was by far the tallest structure there, and nothing around it was even close to as tall.  My fiancee, who spent a semester there, agrees.  Maybe it just looked that way to us while we were there, and we never got a good view from afar.  That view of the Tokyo skyline is pretty awesome though!  And I actually can't even tell where that building in question is located from this picture... so maybe it does blend in well after all.  Still looks ugly up close if you ask me.


The perspective on buildings changes dramatically, depending on location.  From my house, the Devon tower looks very proportional to the other buildings downtown, albeit a little bit taller.  From I-40 driving east, it looks gargantuan and totally out of proportion to the rest of the city.  So perhaps your usual vantage point was such that buildings looked smaller relative to the tower.

----------


## metro

> what the AICCM could look like once they kill the project and some eccentric putz takes over the land?


Ha! Post of the day!

----------


## metro

> Probably do take to much time on the site.  Also LOL.
> 
> I travel a lot and read and post from airports, coffee shops, on the plane, etc.  And, I often work very long days into the evening, so I take breaks occasionally during all times of the day and open the OKCTalk window. I am the boss, so I rarely get in trouble for doing this.  I enjoy the varying viewpoints (yes, JTF, even yours :-) ) and like the interaction among the core posters.  I am intensely interested in the city I have loved for several decades and having been involved in the construction industry for 3 decades, I enjoy the information on all the developments.  OKCTalk is interesting and entertaining.


 This.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> What do you guys do for a living? I would love to work someplace where I could post on OKCTALK all day. Lol


This.  I would love to post longer, more elaborate contributions to the architecture-related threads on this site, but I'm too busy DOING architecture, lol.  

Oh well.  It's hard to complain about business being good.

----------


## catch22

> What do you guys do for a living? I would love to work someplace where I could post on OKCTALK all day. Lol


I work 5 hours out of 10 I am on the clock.....oh overpaid union worker.... :Kicking:

----------


## Pete

There is much more activity on this site during the weekdays versus evenings and weekends, that's for sure.

----------


## MDot

> There is much more activity on this site during the weekdays versus evenings and weekends, that's for sure.


Definately this.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

More photos today after work. Clouds were perfect. Got a lot of skyline shots. It's at the end of a very long queue now.

----------


## Architect2010

Of the Mystery Tower? ;P

----------


## edcrunk

> What? You just said in above post the building doesn't blend with surrounding buildings?
> 
> 
> Tokyo Skyline...looks pretty good to me.


 That pic is sort of deceptive. Tokyo has a lot of clusters of towers together but nothing overly tall tho. I never saw any particular place that was a postcard skyline shot such as this. I thought there was a ton of interesting buildings.

----------


## lasomeday

Devon cranes are officially gone!  People are moving into the building in the next few weeks.  So, we should start to hear more rumors about the Mystery Tower/s.

We can't have these construction workers go unemployed!  Maybe with an announcement soon, some of the workers will only get a few weeks of vacation between the Devon Tower and the new Tower/s.

----------


## Teo9969

> Devon cranes are officially gone!  People are moving into the building in the next few weeks.  So, we should start to hear more rumors about the Mystery Tower/s.
> 
> We can't have these construction workers go unemployed!  Maybe with an announcement soon, some of the workers will only get a few weeks of vacation between the Devon Tower and the new Tower/s.


I mean, if by only a few weeks you mean a few months? If the tower were announced right now, it would probably be at least 2 months before demolition for buildings on whatever lot(s) is chosen began. Then another 2 to 4 months before official "ground breaking", and then another 2 or so months before foundation work started. 

They are talking about having the top 2 floors of the Devon Tower open for business in 9 months. So I imagine there looking at being totally done no later than March of next year, and the workforce for Devon at that point will likely be minimal.

Devon made all the progress on the height of the building in the last year and a half. 1.5 years ago. The first year and a half was pretty straightforward stuff. Not a whole lot of construction workers required, I wouldn't think.

----------


## G.Walker

If Flintco gets construction bid for new skyscraper, more then likely they dont have to wait for Devon Tower to be completed, Flintco has hundreds of construction workers waiting for bids.

----------


## metro

Think many people have misconceptions about the construction industry. These people don't get paid if they don't work. They aren't waiting for a vacation, they are trying to figure out where to work to put food on the table. I imagine many will leave state, regardless of if other projects are announced soon, they won't have a choice.

----------


## Pete

There is still tons of construction happening all over town and there is plenty more getting ready to start independent of any new tower announcement:  SandRidge Amenities building, Convention Center, Downtown Elementary School, Central Park, Bricktown Hotels, Convention Hotel, the Boulevard, demolition of the old crosstown, scores of projects in Midtown and AA, lots of road projects and of course tons of stuff in the suburbs.  Project 180 still has several big packages to put out and there are several other parts of MAPS3 that haven't even commenced.

I'd be curious to know how many of those working on the Devon project were/are from OKC.  Some of the specialists (like the crane operators) probably move around but I bet most the others don't.

----------


## Bellaboo

Okay,

Got some info from a reliable source. The old lumber yard site just south of the U-haul building, has received an unsolicited offer of $29.00 per sq foot......7 + acres. Very hush about any intentions from the buyer....could this be another site to add to the list  ?

----------


## Pete

Interesting!  I doubt that site would be for an office tower...  But it will front on the new boulevard.

The County Assessor shows that parcel at 5.9 acres.  $29 per square foot would be $1.2 million an acre which is less than Chesapeake has been routinely paying in the 63rd & Western area.

----------


## catch22

It's a pretty large site for it to be single use.

----------


## kevinpate

> It's a pretty large site for it to be single use.



Big enough to easily hold two projects the size of, say for example, the Centennial Lofts and its assorted retail and the Sonic HQ bldg, with surface parking for both.  Be interesting to see what ends up there.

----------


## Bellaboo

I thought this site may not be for a large tower, then I saw a city proposal for one of the high rise parking garages just north of the old lumber yard site. We will find out in due time.

----------


## edcrunk

Here's some buildings I found interesting in Tokyo - I'd be happy with any of these here. 

(some were taken with a disposable camera)











there's an album with more pics here 
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...8&l=0ea292c7fc

----------


## lasomeday

> I thought this site may not be for a large tower, then I saw a city proposal for one of the high rise parking garages just north of the old lumber yard site. We will find out in due time.


Yeah, I think the parking garage is a coincidence.  If it was for the tower it would be on the same side of the massive boulevard.  

Maybe this is a mixed use development or the city realizes that the Lumber Yard is the best spot for the Convention Center realizing the limitations of the spot they forced down our throats.

----------


## Pete

^

I bet the SandRidge building will end up similar.

----------


## BoomerThunder1

> Okay,
> 
> Got some info from a reliable source. The old lumber yard site just south of the U-haul building, has received an unsolicited offer of $29.00 per sq foot......7 + acres. Very hush about any intentions from the buyer....could this be another site to add to the list  ?


Great friends with the owner of this site and his family.  This is 100% not true.

----------


## YO MUDA

Nice pics edcrunk. I like the 2nd one.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Great friends with the owner of this site and his family.  This is 100% not true.


Heard this from a man in the wholesale lumber industry that is also good friends with the owner, who he said is where his info came from......FWIW, he had some other info that made sense too, but will not repeat in confidence.

----------


## Spartan

> I think some mid-rise structures with a solid mixed-use podium would be excellent in that location.  
> 
> 
> 
> Would be a great asset to the boulevard the the streetcar.  This site is certainly close enough that TOD design should be considered, if not proactively zoned and enforced.


Ooooh Toronto projects

----------


## UnFrSaKn

The middle one looks like a modern version of SandRidge Center.

----------


## edcrunk

> Nice pics edcrunk. I like the 2nd one.


appreciate it! just found a couple more

----------


## metro

> The middle one looks like a modern version of SandRidge Center.


Sure does, minus the _I am legend_ forest

----------


## Spartan

Nah, not at all. I love Toronto, but come on, that project just screams TORONTO!! Or really what it screams is "Canadian skyscrapers," being yet another set of "twin" towers against a backdrop of...hundreds of twin towers.

----------


## mike1k

Could it be Trans Canada coming to OKC?
http://newsok.com/pipeline-from-cush...rticle/3652745

----------


## Questor

Suddenly this thread reminds me of...

----------


## Jake

I love that movie!

----------


## kbsooner

This thread has grown too quiet.  Someone knows something by now and is holding out...

----------


## architect5311

Yea, what Pete said...







Asian, Highrise, Energy...???

----------


## MDot

^^nice mock-up!

----------


## betts

Hopefully there will be more access between Sheridan and the Boulevard than the above convention center mock-up shows.  Talk about a super block - that's a super-duper.  There HAS to be a way to walk between the Myriad Gardens and the park.  No way a convention center is important enough to ruin that connection.

----------


## G.Walker

> This thread has grown too quiet.  Someone knows something by now and is holding out...


I just think we have speculated every possible scenario, and there is nothing else to speculate about. Moreover, people are probably just tired of talking about it without any official announcement, now we just have to wait.

----------


## catch22

> I just think we have speculated every possible scenario, and there is nothing else to speculate about. Moreover, people are probably just tired of talking about it without any official announcement, now we just have to wait.


Do you feel better that you speculated and are now waiting? You are excited and waiting. Waiting while being excited is hard...that's why I don't like the speculation. It's quiet now.

----------


## wschnitt

I was under the impression walker would not be closed for the convention center

----------


## Pete

Walker definitely won't be closed and they really want to keep Harvey at least somewhat open, too.

----------


## Teo9969

Hopefully city planners learn that you can build OVER streets.

----------


## wschnitt

> Walker definitely won't be closed and they really want to keep Harvey at least somewhat open, too.


So the above rendering is wrong in that regard?

Where did you hear that they what to keep harvey somewhat open?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> So the above rendering is wrong in that regard?
> 
> Where did you hear that they what to keep harvey somewhat open?


it has been said in CC sub committee and other places .. that they want to keep Harvey as a pedestrian "gateway/path" from MBG to the Park ..

----------


## skanaly

I was just worried if the park was going to be seperated from the gardens. I'm glad

----------


## richosh

If all the posts in reference to the mystery tower were stacked on top of each other, we would have another fifty story tower!!!

----------


## BDP

Even if they kept it completely open, it will still feel separated. The convention center itself will serve as a divider for the most part. People are more inclined to walk from point A to point B when there is stuff to see and/or do along the way. There usually isn't much done with convention centers that is attractive to anyone but convention attendees. I mean they could put some retail in it, but that would cut down convention space, so I doubt they will do that. They could surprise us, but all indications is that the city is set on establishing another superblock, which always results in disruption of pedestrian flow and, in this case, a divider between the CBD and future C2S area.

----------


## Pete

Yes, if you are in the Myriad Gardens all you will see is the massive hulk of the convention center to the south, even if there is a corridor on Harvey.

With the way the CC is planned to be placed, the two parks will be very separate.

----------


## knightrider

I know we've touched on this time and time again and have speculated every possible scenario.  But a relative of mine who works at one of the Cameron family companies says one of the executives has a meeting in the middle of March relating to "office relocation".  Also a friend of mine who works for First Fidelity Bank in their headquarters in the First Fidelity Bank building has heard lots of rumblings about American Fidelity and the other Cameron family companies moving downtown.

----------


## Pete

^

This all would make good sense.

I'm convinced that either American/First Fidelity or Midland/Midfirst will be moving downtown very soon.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> ^
> 
> This all would make good sense.
> 
> I'm convinced that either American/First Fidelity or Midland/Midfirst will be moving downtown very soon.


both please

----------


## G.Walker

I think American Fidelity moving downtown is a given, they have been talking about it for years, and probably now is finally coming to fruition, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I am more anxious to find out about this mystery international company building a headquarters in downtown Oklahoma City.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I know we've touched on this time and time again and have speculated every possible scenario.  But a relative of mine who works at one of the Cameron family companies says one of the executives has a meeting in the middle of March relating to "office relocation".  Also a friend of mine who works for First Fidelity Bank in their headquarters in the First Fidelity Bank building has heard lots of rumblings about American Fidelity and the other Cameron family companies moving downtown.


Maybe Steve will have an anouncement in the middle of March.....Devon had theirs in the middle of March, Continental had theirs in the middle of March... Can't wait till the middle of March 2013.

----------


## knightrider

> I think American Fidelity moving downtown is a given, they have been talking about it for years, and probably now is finally coming to fruition, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I am more anxious to find out about this mystery international company building a headquarters in downtown Oklahoma City.


When the chamber stated they were pursuing an international company to move its North American HQ to DT do you think they had someone specific in mind or do you think that was more or less wishful thinking? As stated before, I really think Transcanada makes sense. The reasons: Keystone pipeline running to Cushing; There has to be connections to John Richels current Devon CEO and former CEO Devon Canada Corp; Continental, Devon, Transcanada are some of the major players in Bakken shale and Canadian oil sands region.

----------


## Just the facts

> Hopefully city planners learn that you can build OVER streets.


That doesn't work either.  I submit the elevated I-40 as exhibit A.  It was only 100 feet wide and still created a barrier between downtown and the area south of it.

----------


## Rover

I wonder how many people would naturally move from park to park even if connected.  They seemingly serve two different functions.  And, I thought the idea was to create neighborhoods around the park and to the west.  Anyway, how would it be any different if a 30 story mixed use went there instead of the cc?  Just wondering.  Seems like unless we turn those lots into more park, we would still have the same problem with any large structures.

----------


## G.Walker

> When the chamber stated they were pursuing an international company to move its North American HQ to DT do you think they had someone specific in mind or do you think that was more or less wishful thinking? As stated before, I really think Transcanada makes sense. The reasons: Keystone pipeline running to Cushing; There has to be connections to John Richels current Devon CEO and former CEO Devon Canada Corp; Continental, Devon, Transcanada are some of the major players in Bakken shale and Canadian oil sands region.


With Mark Beffort coming out publicly, I am sure there is a company that will build a headquarters here. However, the term "international company" can put it in a broad scope. A company can be headquartered in U.S. and still can be considered "international". So we don't know if its a U.S., Chinese, or Canadian company. I could care less whether its international or not, as long as its an out of state company. A major out of state company relocating here and building a skyscraper downtown and investing millions will say a lot about Oklahoma City. 

When was the last time a major company from out of state relocated and invested millions in downtown Oklahoma City? My point exactly...

I am not too picky on what companies will relocate or what they will build, there are not too many cities out there our size that can even have discussions like this. I think OKC is in a great position to boom.

----------


## BDP

> They seemingly serve two different functions.


If they can manage that, that would be a reason to have flow from one to the other. C2S and the CBD will always be different and they should be, but you want the flow from one to the other so that they both get used by visitors/users of each one. And you certainly want businesses and potential residents of C2S to feel connected to the rest of downtown as a value add. It'll certainly help kick start it if it feels part of everything else that's going on downtown instead of a completely separate entity. Sometimes it's not even about literally moving from one to the other on the same day. C2S will need the CBD and other established downtown districts to establish its own relevance initially. It needs the flow from one to the other for exposure. Ultimately I don't think it's really about connecting the parks, but connecting the districts and as much in perception as in function.

----------


## G.Walker

I would be happy if we just got one more major skyscraper downtown, anything after that is simply amazing for a city our size. There are many cities out there that haven't seen a skyscraper/high-rise built in their downtown for decades, so for the possibility of 2-3 coming to fruition in OKC is truly a testament to how far we come, and how we continue to grow as a city.

----------


## soonerguru

Allow me to join the soft chorus of posters who believe it's going to be TransCanada.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Allow me to join the soft chorus of posters who believe it's going to be TransCanada.


Doesn't Devon have newly acquired presence in Canada?  I remember seeing an article with their new shiny glass building they purchased.  I don't think it's necessarily that hard to imagine a Canadian company setting up a headquarters in this country.  The company has already expressed that they are going to build the pipeline from Cushing down to the gulf.  

Add me to the count.

----------


## metro

> Doesn't Devon have newly acquired presence in Canada?  I remember seeing an article with their new shiny glass building they purchased.  I don't think it's necessarily that hard to imagine a Canadian company setting up a headquarters in this country.  The company has already expressed that they are going to build the pipeline from Cushing down to the gulf.  
> 
> Add me to the count.


 Devon has had a presence in Canada for some time. The OIL business is GLOBAL, they have interests all over the world.

----------


## Rover

> Devon has had a presence in Canada for some time. The OIL business is GLOBAL, they have interests all over the world.


I think they sold off all their non North American assets didn't they?

----------


## knightrider

> I think they sold off all their non North American assets didn't they?


Yes they sold off their offshore and west africa assets if I remember correctly.  and it seemed like they sold them for a gizillion $$.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yes they sold off their offshore and west africa assets if I remember correctly.  and it seemed like they sold them for a gizillion $$.


They sold off their Brazilian assets also. I believe they are strictly North American now.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'm giving it up to King183,

He confirmed a new tower last week or the week before, then pointed us towards AF as the company. Now others are hearing the same whispers.

----------


## lasomeday

> I believe they are strictly North American now.


Something like that.........

----------


## GaryOKC6

> I just was told from a pretty good source that American Fidelity is going to build a tower.  I am told that it will probably be on the corner of 5th & Broadway.


I heard it again today from the horses mouth.  I am pretty sure this is it.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I heard it again today from the horses mouth.  I am pretty sure this is it.


Pray tell. What other utterances came forth concerning our beloved mystery tower(s)?

----------


## OKCRT

So will it be taller than Chase and shorter than Devon? 5th & Broadway?

----------


## BoulderSooner

putting a new sky scraper at 5th and broadway would be very very hard to get passed

----------


## metro

Weird location for a tall tower, but at least would be on the street car route

----------


## wschnitt

I would think the remaining deep duce plots would fill in quickly if that kind of development went it.

----------


## Bellaboo

> putting a new sky scraper at 5th and broadway would be very very hard to get passed


Why ?

----------


## G.Walker

> putting a new sky scraper at 5th and broadway would be very very hard to get passed


I highly doubt its going to be @ 5th/Broadway, more then likely they meant 4th/Gaylord Blvd, a block south. 

4th/Gaylord would be great location, and could start very quickly as there are no demolition permits to be obtained, there is nothing but a small parking lot at that site.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

The Oklahoman and Pioneer Buildings could use some company...

----------


## Pete

Anyone developing that 4th & Broadway/EKG site should have enough room to build their own parking garage as well.

Also, if this proves to be true, I still think the Main & Hudson tower is happening as well.

----------


## Just the facts

> Anyone developing that 4th & Broadway/EKG site should have enough room to build their own parking garage as well.


There is enough land at 4th and Broadway for two towers.

----------


## G.Walker

> Anyone developing that 4th & Broadway/EKG site should have enough room to build their own parking garage as well.
> 
> Also, if this proves to be true, I still think the Main & Hudson tower is happening as well.


I believe there are two skyscrapers going up. The first being a new headquarters on Preftakes block for new company moving to Oklahoma City. And the other being American Fidelity @ 4th/Gaylord, which is probably in early planning stages. I suspect that the skyscraper on Preftakes block is probably further along in fruition and we will probably here an official announcement from them first. Moreover, an announcement from AF probably won't come until this Fall, and construction starting in 2013.

----------


## bombermwc

Why do we think AF is doing anything though? They have a campus on cheaper land near downtown already. They have plenty room where they are and their bank business is just up the road. Sure they would be able to consolidate into one building, but since they are different divisions (and there are more than 2), it doesn't really mean that much for workflow. 

And as much as we all would like to know what is up Preftakes sleeves, we still don't have any reason to believe he bought it all to tear it down. There is too much land availble downtown for cheaper for that to make sense.

----------


## Pete

AF has talked openly about it's desire to move downtown for years.  Like Devon and Chesapeake, they frequently land on the best-places-to-work lists which demonstrates how much they value their employees, and a beautiful place to work is a big part of treating people right.  I'm sure there are synergies in having all the businesses under one roof...  And CEO Bill Cameron is a part owner of the Thunder and probably just wants to be part of an emerging downtown.  I'm sure it would be easier to recruit top talent in a new downtown skyscraper as opposed to a bunch of unremarkable buildings in random parts of town.

As far as Preftakes, I've documented that he's spent a ton of money on all those adjoining sites.  No way that investment an be justified unless something large is built there.

----------


## OKCTalker

> AF has talked openly about it's desire to move downtown for years.  Like Devon and Chesapeake, they frequently land on the best-places-to-work lists which demonstrates how much they value their employees, and a beautiful place to work is a big part of treating people right.  I'm sure there are synergies in having all the businesses under one roof...  And CEO Bill Cameron is a part owner of the Thunder and probably just wants to be part of an emerging downtown.  I'm sure it would be easier to recruit top talent in a new downtown skyscraper as opposed to a bunch of unremarkable buildings in random parts of town.


Pete - I'm calling "Booooooo" on your theory, and I'll bet you a round of drinks that they don't move. Specific wager: No announcement by AF in 2012 that they'll be moving to the CBD. 1) They're a great employer, meaning that they're also a "destination employer" - people won't consider them geographically undesireable unless they're in a horrible part of town, which they aren't; 2) Bill honors his father's and grandfather's legacies by staying where they built and grew the company on Classen; 3) The Thunder is but one of Bill's interest, but not enough for him to join Clay & Aubrey on the baseline at home games - I don't see him relocating his company closer to the arena until/unless he moves his rear end closer to courtside. 

BTW, winner picks the bar. OKC or Cali, I'll go to either!

----------


## G.Walker

> AF has talked openly about it's desire to move downtown for years.  Like Devon and Chesapeake, they frequently land on the best-places-to-work lists which demonstrates how much they value their employees, and a beautiful place to work is a big part of treating people right.  I'm sure there are synergies in having all the businesses under one roof...  And CEO Bill Cameron is a part owner of the Thunder and probably just wants to be part of an emerging downtown.  I'm sure it would be easier to recruit top talent in a new downtown skyscraper as opposed to a bunch of unremarkable buildings in random parts of town.
> 
> As far as Preftakes, I've documented that he's spent a ton of money on all those adjoining sites.  No way that investment an be justified unless something large is built there.


In support of Pete's theory, AF was trying to move downtown way back in 2006, until they slept on and lost out on Sandridge Tower. This AF move should not be a surprise to anyone. What would be better stamp on the Cameron Family legacy, than building a iconic skyscraper that will forever grace the skyline? 

When a company wants to build a skyscraper, they will, regardless of what people say, or because they have history on Classen, companies change, move, and grow all of the time.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Why ?


for 1 it is outside of the CBD (central business district) and in Auto ally ...

----------


## G.Walker

if the 4th/EKG is the site for new AF skyscraper, it would be great, as it will compliment new Sandridge Tower, it will be close to Deep Deuce, and street car access, nice....

----------


## Bellaboo

Nm.

----------


## Pete

> Pete - I'm calling "Booooooo" on your theory, and I'll bet you a round of drinks that they don't move. Specific wager: No announcement by AF in 2012 that they'll be moving to the CBD. 1) They're a great employer, meaning that they're also a "destination employer" - people won't consider them geographically undesireable unless they're in a horrible part of town, which they aren't; 2) Bill honors his father's and grandfather's legacies by staying where they built and grew the company on Classen; 3) The Thunder is but one of Bill's interest, but not enough for him to join Clay & Aubrey on the baseline at home games - I don't see him relocating his company closer to the arena until/unless he moves his rear end closer to courtside. 
> 
> BTW, winner picks the bar. OKC or Cali, I'll go to either!


You're on!

Except I want to extend the announcement deadline through 2013.

----------


## Bellaboo

> for 1 it is outside of the CBD (central business district) and in Auto ally ...


I'm surprised the city would stop a project this massive due to these reasons...? There are large buildings on NW Expwy too. Just wondering.

----------


## Pete

4th/EKG would be a fantastic site for a new tower:  easy ingress/egress through EKG to I-40 and 5th takes you right to I-235.  Plus, employees could easily walk from lots of rent/buy housing options in Deep Deuce and you have a built-in health club right across the street at the new Y.  And it's a nice little stroll up Broadway to all the places on Auto Alley.  It would also really help bring along the south section of AA as well.

----------


## Steve

> Pete - I'm calling "Booooooo" on your theory, and I'll bet you a round of drinks that they don't move. Specific wager: No announcement by AF in 2012 that they'll be moving to the CBD. 1) They're a great employer, meaning that they're also a "destination employer" - people won't consider them geographically undesireable unless they're in a horrible part of town, which they aren't; 2) Bill honors his father's and grandfather's legacies by staying where they built and grew the company on Classen; 3) The Thunder is but one of Bill's interest, but not enough for him to join Clay & Aubrey on the baseline at home games - I don't see him relocating his company closer to the arena until/unless he moves his rear end closer to courtside. 
> 
> 
> BTW, winner picks the bar. OKC or Cali, I'll go to either!


NO. 2 is completely off base. It's in the official record that AF tried unsuccessfully to buy the Kerr McGee tower and make it their headquarters. They previously bought land at Britton Road and Broadway for an hq before they were convinced by downtown leadership to drop that plan, reconsider the urban core.
As for NO. 3... not sure that really has any baring on this at all either way. As for NO. 1, I'll leave it up to others to decide whether their current location is all that hot or not....

----------


## Pete

It has been mentioned that in 1997 American Fidelity transferred ownership rights in it's headquarters properties to a partnership in New Jersey called Eaton Enterprises.  On the county assessor site it's shown as a "non-sale" event, which usually means the transfer of assets to another entity under the same ownership umbrella.  It's done frequently for tax purposes.

But in doing further research it appears they did actually sell those properties for $9.5 million.  I'm sure a part of this agreement was a lease-back of the space, as they've been there ever since.

But that was 15 years ago and I'm sure they are well into an option period where it's the tenant's option to renew or not.

As Steve mentioned, several times in the recent past they have explored buying elsewhere and moving.

What better time would there be for them than now?

----------


## G.Walker

According to the Oklahoma County Assessor website, the 4th/EKG site is broken up into 3 parcels, 1 which is owned by the City, and 2 which are owned by OPUBCO.

----------


## BDP

> NO. 1, I'll leave it up to others to decide whether their current location is all that hot or not....


Uptown, asian district, historic neighborhoods, easy access to midtown and downtown. It's not a bad spot at all. If I worked there, I wouldn't complain at all and would certainly prefer it to expressway, memorial or 235, but downtown would probably be even more appealing.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Whether 5th & Broadway or 4th and EKG, the skyline, approaching the core from I-40 E or W, will put a nice exclamation point at the end of the taper from south to north.

----------


## Pete

It's not a bad spot but essentially functions like a suburban one in that it's a cluster of mid-rise buildings with big surface parking lots.

I doubt employees walk to any place on 23rd or Classen, either.


Unless you are a hipster (and I doubt AF employs many of those) this is a less desirable spot than most those further out, which is probably why they were considering Britton & Broadway.  I bet most their employees live in north OKC and Edmond.

At least downtown is more accessible from all over the metro, has come cache and also lots of amenities.

Frankly, I think for most workers the 20th & Classen location combines the worst aspects of downtown and suburbia without offering many of the benefits of either.

----------


## DelCamino

> ....3) The Thunder is but one of Bill's interest, but not enough for him to join Clay & Aubrey on the baseline at home games - I don't see him relocating his company closer to the arena until/unless he moves his rear end closer to courtside...


Not that this has real bearing on anything, but Cameron already has seats courtside - opposite the opposing team's bench.

----------


## Oil Capital

> With Mark Beffort coming out publicly, I am sure there is a company that will build a headquarters here. However, the term "international company" can put it in a broad scope. A company can be headquartered in U.S. and still can be considered "international". So we don't know if its a U.S., Chinese, or Canadian company.


But I believe he also said it was to be the "North American headquarters" of an "international company".  If it was a U.S. company, it would logically be the world headquarters, not a North American HQ.  That suggests that it is indeed a company based outside the United States, that will put its "North American" (but not world) Headquarters in Oklahoma City.

----------


## Pete

The statements from Beffort and the Chamber are getting confused.  Here is what Richard Mize reported about the Beffort hint:




> Mark Beffort said another new corporate headquarters will be built downtown starting this year, but he didn’t say what company. He also said would-be tenants are vying for Devon Energy’s current space, but he didn’t say who.

----------


## knightrider

Who was it that said it would be an international company moving its North American HQ here?  Was it the OKC Chamber that said they were actively recruiting and international company to place its North American HQ in OKC?  Is there a press release or something that shows this statement?

----------


## G.Walker

> Who was it that said it would be an international company moving its North American HQ here?  Was it the OKC Chamber that said they were actively recruiting and international company to place its North American HQ in OKC?  Is there a press release or something that shows this statement?


Economic development officials try to lure next big catch to Oklahoma City
BY STEVE LACKMEYER Oklahoman
January 27, 2011

Following the successful recruitment of Whole Foods and 550 Boeing jobs,* executives with the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber say they’re in the hunt for a North American headquarters for a “large international company” and also are in talks with two grocery stores looking to open locations downtown.*

The development prospects were revealed this week as part of a quarterly report delivered to the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust, which reviews potential retail and jobs incentives issued by the city.

Robin Roberts-Kreiger, executive vice president of Economic Development, said the chamber has visited with some of the companies over the past couple of weeks.

*“We showed Oklahoma City to a large company last week,” said Roberts-Kreiger, who is not permitted to discuss names of prospects. “It’s a very large project, and we’re on their short list. This week we have a large international company in town looking at North American headquarters.”*

Alison Oshel, who oversees retail recruitment for the chamber, reported prospects are up as well in the effort to lure shops, stores and restaurants not currently found in Oklahoma City.

“We have 30 really solid leads to locate retailers in Oklahoma City,” Oshel said. “Two are downtown grocery stores, which we feel as optimistic as we’ve felt yet and we think we may see a downtown grocery store in the next few years.”

The activity, Oshel said, isn’t just a “blip on the radar screen.”

“We feel as if the worst of the recession may be over,” Oshel said.

Roberts-Kreiger echoed Oshel’s sentiments.

“We’re seeing increased activity,” Roberts-Kreiger said. “Based on trends, we believe it’s based on the economy and some companies that were sitting on cash are starting to move because of that.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/economic-developme...#ixzz1CridGIJz

----------


## Bellaboo

> Not that this has real bearing on anything, but Cameron already has seats courtside - opposite the opposing team's bench.


He likes his basketball, I think he is the majority owner of the Tulsa Shock of the WPNBA.

----------


## Urbanized

The site at NW 4th and Broadway is in the CBD. The Automobile Alley district does not officially begin until the north side of Broadway, though we always unofficially included the building that now houses TAP because, well, it fit.

----------


## Rover

What is there to prohibit high rises in the midtown area anyway?  There are lots of vacant lots crying for development.

----------


## Bellaboo

> What is there to prohibit high rises in the midtown area anyway?  There are lots of vacant lots crying for development.


I could see not putting one within a block of the memorial, but isn't Regency Tower 25 or 26 stories anyway...?

----------


## MikeOKC

> I could see not putting one within a block of the memorial, but isn't Regency Tower 25 or 26 stories anyway...?


I agree about restrictions around the memorial. The existing Regency Tower was 'part of the story' as it were.

----------


## Urbanized

> What is there to prohibit high rises in the midtown area anyway?  There are lots of vacant lots crying for development.


Design guidelines. They are written in such a way so as to encourage similar building types stay grouped together.

----------


## Jesseda

> The statements from Beffort and the Chamber are getting confused.  Here is what Richard Mize reported about the Beffort hint:


so is it a company that is already in downtown? wonder if the the hype is just the new sandridge tower?

----------


## Jim Kyle

> I doubt employees walk to any place on 23rd or Classen, either.


I suspect that a fair number of them walk up Western a few blocks to Someplace Else, though. Every time I drop in there around lunch time, the place is packed.

----------


## DelCamino

> Design guidelines. They are written in such a way so as to encourage similar building types stay grouped together.


Not necessarily.  The downtown zoning districts (DBD, DTD-1 and DTD-2) have no height restrictions, although there are areas on the outskirts of the zoning districts, such as N. 13th Street that require a building height plane.  The ordinance does not limit the height of buildings in most of the downtown area (defined as N. 13th Street, I-235, Classen/Shartel and south to the river).

The Downtown Design Reivew may have "guidelines" but those are not ordinances and are not codified.  They may raise questions about compatibility and impact of a building's height, and could deny a request, but that could easily be appealed, and imo, unless there was something drastically negative about the proposal, it would get approved.  After all, it is downtown and large, tall developments are specifically allowed there.

----------


## G.Walker

> I suspect that a fair number of them walk up Western a few blocks to Someplace Else, though. Every time I drop in there around lunch time, the place is packed.


no, its already been confirmed that the mystery tower(s) would be in addition to Sandridge Tower and CC Hotel...

----------


## Urbanized

> Not necessarily.  The downtown zoning districts (DBD, DTD-1 and DTD-2) have no height restrictions, although there are areas on the outskirts of the zoning districts, such as N. 13th Street that require a building height plane.  The ordinance does not limit the height of buildings in most of the downtown area (defined as N. 13th Street, I-235, Classen/Shartel and south to the river).
> 
> The Downtown Design Reivew may have "guidelines" but those are not ordinances and are not codified.  They may raise questions about compatibility and impact of a building's height, and could deny a request, but that could easily be appealed, and imo, unless there was something drastically negative about the proposal, it would get approved.  After all, it is downtown and large, tall developments are specifically allowed there.


Good info, thanks. I do recall the guidelines published in late nineties used a lot of language like "generally encouraged" etc. I wasn't thinking necessarily code, but like you say I recall lots of strong _emphasis_ placed on horizontal rather than vertical in AA, for instance.

----------


## OKCRT

So it says that OKC is on the North American HQ list. OKC was on AA list as well and we lost out to Indy. What makes some people act as if this co. is for sure building here?

----------


## Pete

^

No one is sure about anything but in addition to that article in the Oklahoman there have been lots of rumors floating around in this vein.

And by rumors, I don't mean just the ones on this board.  I've heard rumblings for several different sources myself.

----------


## Just the facts

I am going to channel my inner metro - it was not AA, it was United that selected Indy over OKC.

----------


## knightrider

I don't know why I didn't think of this before but does anyone think the Chamber could have been refering to Frac Tech International?  Chesapeake owns a 30% interest (though likely trying to sell it off to Sinopec/CNOOC), Aubrey and Chesapeake's current CFO sit on the board.  Sinopec is currently in talks to acquire a 30% interest for 2.2 billion putting this companies market cap value near $7.3 billion.  This seems kind of small, however the 2.2 billion in cash could help build a nice new tower in downton OKC.  Not a likely contender but an interesting one.

----------


## Urbanized

> I am going to channel my inner metro - it was not AA, it was United that selected Indy over OKC.


One of the best things that ever happened to OKC...

----------


## betts

Well. at least if we get a downtown grocery store, people will no longer be able to use that as an excuse for not moving downtown.  But I agree that Steve's article doesn't exactly make you think it's time to relocate the construction cam.

----------


## Urbanized

The article was from a year ago...

----------


## plmccordj

Please don't take offense to this but can people please try to get in the habit of posting the full name before using acronyms? If someone is not directly involved in what you are talking about then most people have no idea what they are.  Start at the top of page 39 and read down the page and look at all the symbols, acronyms.  Just to name a few... DBD, DTD-1, DTD-2, CBD, TAP, AA, WPNBA, CNOOC, CC

I understand a few of them but some of them I am left scratching my head. I know that no one including myself likes to have someone correct grammar or spelling but I am just trying to understand the posts.

Thanks.

----------


## catch22

CBD - Central Business District
AA - American Airlines (in the context of above), can also mean Alternative Analysis when it comes to the transit study, or Automobile Alley.
WPNBA - Women's Professional National Basketball Association (I think?)
CC - Convention Center

----------


## plmccordj

Thank you catch22 and I apologize for getting off subject.

----------


## OKCTalker

> One of the best things that ever happened to OKC...


+1

----------


## MikeOKC

> One of the best things that ever happened to OKC...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by OKCTalker
> 
> ...


+2

----------


## metro

> Well. at least if we get a downtown grocery store, people will no longer be able to use that as an excuse for not moving downtown.  But I agree that Steve's article doesn't exactly make you think it's time to relocate the construction cam.


 I thought we were getting Native Roots across the street from you. Shouldn't you say when it opens instead?

----------


## ljbab728

> I thought we were getting Native Roots across the street from you. Shouldn't you say when it opens instead?


Picky, picky, metro.

----------


## catch22

I am very excited about this project! I am reserving judgment until I see some site plans, but this has potential to be a winner to bring that side of Bricktown to life; and as mentioned help tie in the Deep Deuce area with Bricktown a little more. That corner of Sheridan may very well be our next true "urban" corner, all that needs to be developed to achieve that will be the SE corner north of the IHOP.

Hopefully the city doesn't drop the ball....

----------


## bombermwc

Pete - the reasons you give don't add up for me. It's all speculative and it doesn't make business sense. People don't move downtown unless it makes some overwhelming dollar sense to them because it costs so much more to BE downtown. Why do you think so many places build on memorial? Simply being under one roof doesn't do it. And especially if you build your own building. It's far more economical to lease space than own in the office world. Mostly because you are then mobile and not tied to something later. It's not like manufacturing. There are ups and downs both ways, but generally speaking, if you are going to build a tower, you better have a damned good reason for doing it (like being spread out in 6 different buildings and requiring 50 floors to even consolidate)....cough cough. 

But for AF, there's no reason. It's not like OG&E and their pipeline company where it moves the B2B closer together so you can walk over (which i would still argue is a poor decision...ever heard of the phone or video conferencing). Rent is higher, your commute for sure increases no matter what because of downtown traffic in/out. Telecom downtown SUCKS! All that copper down there rather than fiber is worthless and power is flakey. 

Where AF is, they aren't out of growth room either. They don't need to work closely with anyone downtown. And as I've said before, they don't get anything out of consolidating under one roof for two divisions....remember there are several other divisions of the family's company that wouldn't be included. 

We can speculate and say how cool it would be to have them move and all, but at the end of the day, i don't buy it. And what's worse in the whole thing is if they do move, you won't be able to fill their old buildings up. So yeah you've moved WITHIN the city to downtown and simply left a big block of office space on classesn to sit abandoned. It's sort of like Wal-Mart. YAY, you got your Super Center, but what the crap are you going to do with the old building now. Simply shuffling within the city doesn't get you jack. What you want, it someone moving in from outside the city....like CR taking over Devon space. That's where you do the happy dance.

----------


## metro

> Picky, picky, metro.


My point wasn't the grammar, but that we ARE getting a DT grocer!

----------


## metro

After driving by the 5th and Broadway lot on the NE corner, I'd say it'd be perfect for a midrise, and maybe would be just the catalyst Auto Alley needs to be a thriving urban district and take it to the next level. Man, with a mid-rise, some housing, and the street car, AA would be the place to be.

----------


## Urbanized

TAP = TAP Architecture (originally The Architectural Partnership, though they almost exclusively brand as TAP Architecture now)
AA = Automobile Alley historic district

----------


## Urbanized

> After driving by the 5th and Broadway lot on the NE corner, I'd say it'd be perfect for a midrise, and maybe would be just the catalyst Auto Alley needs to be a thriving urban district and take it to the next level. Man witha mid-rise, some housing, and the street car, AA would be the place to be.


I agree; mid-rise housing with retail/mixed use street level would be a fantastic fit on that spot, and really help better tie AA to the CBD.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Pete - the reasons you give don't add up for me. It's all speculative and it doesn't make business sense. People don't move downtown unless it makes some overwhelming dollar sense to them because it costs so much more to BE downtown. Why do you think so many places build on memorial? Simply being under one roof doesn't do it. And especially if you build your own building. It's far more economical to lease space than own in the office world. Mostly because you are then mobile and not tied to something later. It's not like manufacturing. There are ups and downs both ways, but generally speaking, if you are going to build a tower, you better have a damned good reason for doing it (like being spread out in 6 different buildings and requiring 50 floors to even consolidate)....cough cough. 
> 
> But for AF, there's no reason. It's not like OG&E and their pipeline company where it moves the B2B closer together so you can walk over (which i would still argue is a poor decision...ever heard of the phone or video conferencing). Rent is higher, your commute for sure increases no matter what because of downtown traffic in/out. Telecom downtown SUCKS! All that copper down there rather than fiber is worthless and power is flakey. 
> 
> Where AF is, they aren't out of growth room either. They don't need to work closely with anyone downtown. And as I've said before, they don't get anything out of consolidating under one roof for two divisions....remember there are several other divisions of the family's company that wouldn't be included. 
> 
> We can speculate and say how cool it would be to have them move and all, but at the end of the day, i don't buy it. And what's worse in the whole thing is if they do move, you won't be able to fill their old buildings up. So yeah you've moved WITHIN the city to downtown and simply left a big block of office space on classesn to sit abandoned. It's sort of like Wal-Mart. YAY, you got your Super Center, but what the crap are you going to do with the old building now. Simply shuffling within the city doesn't get you jack. What you want, it someone moving in from outside the city....like CR taking over Devon space. That's where you do the happy dance.


a private company .. (AF /FF)   need no reason to move downtown (or anywhere else)  other than the owners wishes ....   period end of story ..  

and as far as what they vacate .. it could very likely be filled or redeveloped into a better use

----------


## Pete

> Pete - the reasons you give don't add up for me. It's all speculative and it doesn't make business sense. People don't move downtown unless it makes some overwhelming dollar sense to them because it costs so much more to BE downtown. Why do you think so many places build on memorial? Simply being under one roof doesn't do it. And especially if you build your own building. It's far more economical to lease space than own in the office world. Mostly because you are then mobile and not tied to something later. It's not like manufacturing. There are ups and downs both ways, but generally speaking, if you are going to build a tower, you better have a damned good reason for doing it (like being spread out in 6 different buildings and requiring 50 floors to even consolidate)....cough cough.


But they've already made it known they would like to move downtown; we could speculate why all day long but they made that leap years ago so the reasons don't really matter.

Using your logic no one would be downtown.

If I was a CEO of a large enterprise in OKC I guarantee you I'd move downtown and I know lots of others feel that way.  For a project that is going to cost hundreds of millions, a few million extra for land is not going to make a big difference.

----------


## BDP

> Using your logic no one would be downtown.


And every building would be exactly the same.

----------


## Bellaboo

> We can speculate and say how cool it would be to have them move and all, but at the end of the day, i don't buy it. And what's worse in the whole thing is if they do move, you won't be able to fill their old buildings up. So yeah you've moved WITHIN the city to downtown and simply left a big block of office space on classesn to sit abandoned. It's sort of like Wal-Mart. YAY, you got your Super Center, but what the crap are you going to do with the old building now. Simply shuffling within the city doesn't get you jack. What you want, it someone moving in from outside the city....like CR taking over Devon space. That's where you do the happy dance.


If I remember correctly, you were the one dogging CR for moving to OKC..........because it was going to crush Enid. At least they didn't move to Houston.

As far as AF is concerned, they don't own those 3 buildings on the East side of Classen, therefore they could care less if they set empty, they wouldn't care if they were dozed down.

Obviously, AF wants to move out of one century and into the next, for whatever reasons - it's their choice.

----------


## ChaseDweller

We just heard from a source here in the downtown real estate market that it is American Fidelity and that they are planning a 40 story tower in the 4th and Broadway triangle.  Might be accurate, might not, but that's what we were told.

----------


## skanaly

not a fan of that location for a tower that tall

----------


## G.Walker

> not a fan of that location for a tower that tall


I think this will be a great location, as it will expand skyline to the east, and it will compliment the new Sandridge Tower, and add synergy to Deep Deuce/AA developments...

----------


## knightrider

Are we talking about the SE corner of 4th and Broadway or the NW corner? Or are we talking about 4th and broadway in general?

----------


## progressiveboy

> I think this will be a great location, as it will expand skyline to the east, and it will compliment the new Sandridge Tower, and add synergy to Deep Deuce/AA developments...


 Agree. The Skyline needs to grow East to balance it out.

----------


## OKCTalker

I heard from two key players last week that no new highrise was being planned for downtown. They would know, they're aware of the rumors and discussion, and they were both having a good laugh about it. 

Because I can't tell you who they were - I'm just adding grist to the mill. But with that said...

----------


## OKCTalker

... Pete - I won't give you through 2013 for an AF announcement, but I'll double down on my bet of a round of drinks if another company - ANY company - announces a highrise (10+ stories) in the CBD in 2012. You can buy me drinks at the restaurant atop the Devon tower.

----------


## G.Walker

thats funny, because I am 100% sure Sandridge is building a new tower 20+, if nothing else...

----------


## G.Walker

read posts 995 and 996 slowly, until you get it,  and see if that makes any sense at all...lol...funny stuff...

----------


## skanaly

pardon me, i thought it was SW4th street

----------


## Pete

> I heard from two key players last week that no new highrise was being planned for downtown. They would know, they're aware of the rumors and discussion, and they were both having a good laugh about it. 
> 
> Because I can't tell you who they were - I'm just adding grist to the mill. But with that said...


How could anybody know this conclusively?

You can't prove a negative...  There is no one person or two people in Oklahoma City that could possibly know with absolute certainty that no new high rise was being planned.

Unless your source is Kreskin or someone with a crystal ball.

----------


## Jesseda

> How could anybody know this conclusively?
> 
> You can't prove a negative...  There is no one person or two people in Oklahoma City that could possibly know with absolute certainty that no new high rise was being planned.
> 
> Unless your source is Kreskin or someone with a crystal ball.


great we can get these questions and speculations answered finally... Does anyone have a crystal ball!!!

----------


## ljbab728

> My point wasn't the grammar, but that we ARE getting a DT grocer!


I know what your point was and my statement still applies.

----------


## Spartan

> great we can get these questions and speculations answered finally... Does anyone have a crystal ball!!!


I do. It just says "concentrate and ask again." Darn.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

How about something like what First National was originally supposed to look like? Or just keep it in the 1930's?

----------


## MDot

I would love it if First National looked like that today but I say keep it in the 30's.

----------


## Milan

Is the first national center almost completely vacant right now?

----------


## hoya

I really wish someone would build a new Art Deco skyscraper here.  That would be awesome.

----------


## Teo9969

I would really like someone to build a skyscraper with the same materials as Valliance. I love that building, and I think that color would add a lot to the skyline.

----------


## bombermwc

> But they've already made it known they would like to move downtown; we could speculate why all day long but they made that leap years ago so the reasons don't really matter.
> 
> Using your logic no one would be downtown.
> 
> If I was a CEO of a large enterprise in OKC I guarantee you I'd move downtown and I know lots of others feel that way.  For a project that is going to cost hundreds of millions, a few million extra for land is not going to make a big difference.


You missed the point i made. For several companies, it is adventageous. B2B relationships spell a need for that. However, there's also a reason why so many business AREN'T downtown. So by reversal, your logic would say that everyone should only be downtown. That's obviously not the case either. The point here is, it doesn't make sense for everyone. But for some folks it does.

----------


## Pete

> Pete - the reasons you give don't add up for me. It's all speculative and it doesn't make business sense. *People don't move downtown unless it makes some overwhelming dollar sense to them because it costs so much more to BE downtown*. Why do you think so many places build on memorial? Simply being under one roof doesn't do it. And especially if you build your own building. It's far more economical to lease space than own in the office world. Mostly because you are then mobile and not tied to something later. It's not like manufacturing. There are ups and downs both ways, but generally speaking, if you are going to build a tower, you better have a damned good reason for doing it (like being spread out in 6 different buildings and requiring 50 floors to even consolidate)....cough cough. 
> 
> But *for AF, there's no reason*. It's not like OG&E and their pipeline company where it moves the B2B closer together so you can walk over (which i would still argue is a poor decision...ever heard of the phone or video conferencing). Rent is higher, your commute for sure increases no matter what because of downtown traffic in/out. Telecom downtown SUCKS! All that copper down there rather than fiber is worthless and power is flakey. 
> 
> Where AF is, they aren't out of growth room either. They don't need to work closely with anyone downtown. And as I've said before, they don't get anything out of consolidating under one roof for two divisions....remember there are several other divisions of the family's company that wouldn't be included. 
> 
> We can speculate and say how cool it would be to have them move and all, but at the end of the day, i don't buy it. And what's worse in the whole thing is if they do move, you won't be able to fill their old buildings up. So yeah you've moved WITHIN the city to downtown and simply left a big block of office space on classesn to sit abandoned. It's sort of like Wal-Mart. YAY, you got your Super Center, but what the crap are you going to do with the old building now. Simply shuffling within the city doesn't get you jack. What you want, it someone moving in from outside the city....like CR taking over Devon space. That's where you do the happy dance.


Actually, you stated that there MUST be a business reason for someone to pay more to be downtown and I was pointing out there are lots of reasons rather than purely economical ones, otherwise almost no one would be there.

----------


## hoya

Every decision a business makes should make economic sense.  You don't move a successful business from the suburbs to downtown if you expect it to become unsuccessful as a result.  I don't think any of the companies we are talking about are in that position, where the extra cost associated with moving downtown would be the difference between sleeping on piles of cash and begging for change.

Officing in a thriving downtown brings with it a certain amount of prestige.  It positions the company to be a more prominent presence in the city.  Remember that "economic sense" does not always equal "cheapest thing we can find".  While a penny saved may equal a penny earned, you also have to spend money to make money.  If a large company really wanted to go cheap, they could always get space in a strip mall.  There are lots of old Wal-Marts around the city.  I bet you could get Crossroads Mall for next to nothing.  Lots of available square footage there.  Where would you rather work?  Will Devon have an easier time getting in-demand employees at their new gorgeous skyscraper than they would if they were at Crossroads Mall?  If you were an executive, would you prefer to look out over the city from 50 stories up, or have easy parking?

It doesn't make sense for every business to move downtown.  Some have spent a lot of money establishing themselves in their current locations.  Chesapeake isn't going to move downtown after spending all that money building their campus.  Bob the dentist would probably lose most of his business if he moved from Moore to downtown.  But for a company that was looking to move from their current location anyway, who could afford higher rents and were looking to take a higher-profile position in the city, moving downtown could make a lot of business sense.

----------


## Bellaboo

It's also advantageous for attracting employees from all parts of the metro. No one wants to commute to Memorial and May from Norman if their commute could be half of that to downtown.

----------


## G.Walker

> Every decision a business makes should make economic sense.  You don't move a successful business from the suburbs to downtown if you expect it to become unsuccessful as a result.  I don't think any of the companies we are talking about are in that position, where the extra cost associated with moving downtown would be the difference between sleeping on piles of cash and begging for change.
> 
> Officing in a thriving downtown brings with it a certain amount of prestige.  It positions the company to be a more prominent presence in the city.  Remember that "economic sense" does not always equal "cheapest thing we can find".  While a penny saved may equal a penny earned, you also have to spend money to make money.  If a large company really wanted to go cheap, they could always get space in a strip mall.  There are lots of old Wal-Marts around the city.  I bet you could get Crossroads Mall for next to nothing.  Lots of available square footage there.  Where would you rather work?  Will Devon have an easier time getting in-demand employees at their new gorgeous skyscraper than they would if they were at Crossroads Mall?  If you were an executive, would you prefer to look out over the city from 50 stories up, or have easy parking?
> 
> It doesn't make sense for every business to move downtown.  Some have spent a lot of money establishing themselves in their current locations.  Chesapeake isn't going to move downtown after spending all that money building their campus.  Bob the dentist would probably lose most of his business if he moved from Moore to downtown.  But for a company that was looking to move from their current location anyway, who could afford higher rents and were looking to take a higher-profile position in the city, moving downtown could make a lot of business sense.


This is one of the best posts I have heard in a while, a post that actually makes sense.  :Yourock:

----------


## jedicurt

> This is one of the best posts I have heard in a while, a post that actually makes sense.


I think that means that we should ban Hoyasooner from these forums... how dare people get on here and post things that make sense!!!

----------


## Teo9969

> It's also advantageous for attracting employees from all parts of the metro. No one wants to commute to Memorial and May from Norman if their commute could be half of that to downtown.


This.

It's called the CENTRAL business district for a reason.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Im going to LOL next year when there's no building announcement and this thread is 150 pages deep...

----------


## catch22

Next year it will be a bigger thread than the Devon thread.

Edit: And by then we'll have about 25 towers rumored (CONFIRMED BY THE INTERWEBS) to be going in.

----------


## Pete

There was a huge thread about Devon Tower long before it was announced.

There almost certainly will be some sort of announcement(s) in the next year.

----------


## adaniel

> Every decision a business makes should make economic sense.  You don't move a successful business from the suburbs to downtown if you expect it to become unsuccessful as a result.  I don't think any of the companies we are talking about are in that position, where the extra cost associated with moving downtown would be the difference between sleeping on piles of cash and begging for change.
> 
> Officing in a thriving downtown brings with it a certain amount of prestige.  It positions the company to be a more prominent presence in the city.  Remember that "economic sense" does not always equal "cheapest thing we can find".  While a penny saved may equal a penny earned, you also have to spend money to make money.  If a large company really wanted to go cheap, they could always get space in a strip mall.  There are lots of old Wal-Marts around the city.  I bet you could get Crossroads Mall for next to nothing.  Lots of available square footage there.  Where would you rather work?  Will Devon have an easier time getting in-demand employees at their new gorgeous skyscraper than they would if they were at Crossroads Mall?  If you were an executive, would you prefer to look out over the city from 50 stories up, or have easy parking?


This probably sounds silly, but I actually ended up passing on a job opportunity with an energy company because, among other reasons, it was way out on Northwest Expressway past Rockwell. As far as the energy sector is concerned, it has more or less coalesced around downtown (and to a lesser extent, 63rd and Western for obvious reasons). These two areas have a synergy to them that facilitates networking and business relationships, much in the same sense you see in Silicon Valley with tech companies or Wall Street in NYC with banks. It would very very difficult to do the same thing being halfway to Piedmont.

----------


## Just the facts

> Every decision a business makes should make economic sense.


You would like to think that, but that is only true about half the time.  Don't give corporate America too much credit, they are still run by Humans (not Vulcans).

----------


## BDP

> Im going to LOL next year when there's no building announcement and this thread is 150 pages deep...


You're going to laugh if downtown doesn't get another high rise? Maybe OKC isn't that OK for you...

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> You're going to laugh if downtown doesn't get another high rise? Maybe OKC isn't that OK for you...


Maybe you don't know that I'm generally 125% sarcastic when I say things like that...SMH

----------


## Skyline

> I heard from two key players last week that no new highrise was being planned for downtown. They would know, they're aware of the rumors and discussion, and they were both having a good laugh about it. 
> 
> Because I can't tell you who they were - I'm just adding grist to the mill. But with that said...





> ... Pete - I won't give you through 2013 for an AF announcement, but I'll double down on my bet of a round of drinks if another company - ANY company - announces a highrise (10+ stories) in the CBD in 2012. You can buy me drinks at the restaurant atop the Devon tower.


You are saying that two key Okc individuals were laughing at the rumor of the mystery tower and yet you won't extend the bet for 2013?

How hard were they laughing, was it LOL, LMAO, or ROFLMAO?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> How hard were they laughing, was it LOL, LMAO, or ROFLMAO?


"like"

----------


## Skyline

What is today's Mystery Tower word on the street?

----------


## MDot

> What is today's Mystery Tower word on the street?


It's still a mystery.

----------


## OKCTalker

> You are saying that two key Okc individuals were laughing at the rumor of the mystery tower and yet you won't extend the bet for 2013?
> 
> How hard were they laughing, was it LOL, LMAO, or ROFLMAO?


Confident smirks. 

You want me to risk a round of drinks on Pete on a timeline that extends 21 months? He'd order a round of Pousse Cafes or a bottle of Cristal.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I really like this one in Detroit.

One Detroit Center





Mixture of old and new. I wish we could get an original idea like this that is ultra modern but has a classical style.

----------


## okcpulse

> Confident smirks. 
> 
> You want me to risk a round of drinks on Pete on a timeline that extends 21 months? He'd order a round of Pousse Cafes or a bottle of Cristal.


OKCTalker, the only issue I have with your claim is that we have had Mark Beffort, a major player in the Oklahoma City real estate industry publicly confirm a new tower, but did not reveal the identity.  Do we quickly forget these things?  Or is there confusion as to what do we speculate?

If there was absolutely zip in the press about this, I'd have more confidence in what you have said.  Because this has been discussed in the paper, I do not.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Off topic but I wish every new building constructed downtown had this level of creative detail and imaginitivity. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Washington_Library



Is it just the sheer cost or what?

----------


## Pete

Yes, cost and maintenance.  Back when all these ornate buildings were constructed, they were basically employing slave labor.


Plus, that building scares me!

----------


## Just the facts

Buildings are still made like that today, but mostly it is limited to homes.  Corporate America only cares about cost per sq foot which is why most skyscrapers today use glass walls on the exterior.  Individual people still like living in something more substantial than glass.

----------


## Rover

I can't believe corporations care about things like cost and functionality.  How dare they...those evil corporate America execs.  ;-)

Actually, the use of lots of glass started in the mid 1800s in England and the first glass clad high-rise was in Chicago shortly thereafter.  Technology advances in steel fabrication and pane glass production was the underlying catalyst.  The desire for simple and functional buildings drove things to steel and concrete core and glass cladding.  Thankfully, architects are more inclined to do things like the Devon Center now...really functional buildings using current technology to create glass buildings with elegant design form.  I hope we are so lucky to have the new tower(s) be as attractive.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

To me, this will always be more impressive then sheer size and glass. Structures like this will probably always be one of a kind and never repeated. 


Tribune Tower

----------


## BDP

> Maybe you don't know that I'm generally 125% sarcastic when I say things like that...SMH


Me too.

Don't worry, I didn't really mean that OKC was not OK 4 U anymore... PoTB.

----------


## BDP

> Confident smirks. 
> 
> You want me to risk a round of drinks on Pete on a timeline that extends 21 months? He'd order a round of Pousse Cafes or a bottle of Cristal.


Leverage the bet with the smug bastards and you can't lose. Either way, Cristal with Pete!

----------


## Just the facts

> To me, this will always be more impressive then sheer size and glass. Structures like this will probably always be one of a kind and never repeated.


One Atlantic Center in Atlanta was built in 1987.  However, like many other buildings constructed in the time period - they screwed up the street level aspect.  They spent so much time making sure the crown looked good from 10 miles away they forgot to make sure the first floor looked good from 10 feet away.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

*Generally* never repeated.

----------


## OKCNDN

I would like to see a building with gargoyles on it at the top.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Whatever we get, I hope it looks nothing like Devon Tower in any way and is completely unique.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Neither Oklahoma City or Tulsa architecture is featured on GlassSteelAndStone.com.

----------


## Thundercitizen

I love how the Devon Tower interacts with the horizon. There will always be a handful of architectural critiques of any building, but I'd like to see at least one more shimmering structure on the skyline...particularly in contrast to the other relatively drab buildings.  After that, then go for an ornate, eclectic, mixed exterior finish.

----------


## MikeLucky

Some TransCanada news... sort of...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73686.html

----------


## architect5311

> Yes, cost and maintenance.  Back when all these ornate buildings were constructed, they were basically employing slave labor.
> 
> 
> Plus, that building scares me!



FYI, This is the Harold Washington Library in Chicago, completed in 1991...not too old

----------


## UnFrSaKn

That's what I'm getting at.

----------


## Pete

There have been SOME ornate buildings over the last few decades, just an incredibly low percentage as compared to the first half of the 20th century, which is what I was addressing.

----------


## NoOkie

> I don't know why I didn't think of this before but does anyone think the Chamber could have been refering to Frac Tech International?  Chesapeake owns a 30% interest (though likely trying to sell it off to Sinopec/CNOOC), Aubrey and Chesapeake's current CFO sit on the board.  Sinopec is currently in talks to acquire a 30% interest for 2.2 billion putting this companies market cap value near $7.3 billion.  This seems kind of small, however the 2.2 billion in cash could help build a nice new tower in downton OKC.  Not a likely contender but an interesting one.


Chiming in late here, but I did want to say that this is probably completely unlikely.  I have a friend that works for them in Ft. Worth.  I doubt they would need a tower, they just have three or four floors of a building in down town Ft. Worth.

He would also be incredibly bummed, he just moved down there to work for them and is loving being in a major city after living in OKC for years.

----------


## dankrutka

> He would also be incredibly bummed, he just moved down there to work for them and is loving being in a major city after living in OKC for years.


Yeah, it would stink to have to move back to a barn in OKC and live with the farm animals after being in a major city like Fort Worth. Lol.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yeah, it would stink to have to move back to a barn in OKC and live with the farm animals after being in a major city like Fort Worth. Lol.


Fort Worthless............as my sister who lives there calls it.

----------


## amaesquire

> Fort Worthless............as my sister who lives there calls it.


The only thing good about Fort Worth is it's next to Dallas.

----------


## dankrutka

> Fort Worthless............as my sister who lives there calls it.


I like Fort Worth a lot actually, but Fort Worthians shouldn't be dissing OKC because, on its own, Fort Worth isn't that different from OKC. I spend a ton of time in both. Of course, it's really silly to insult any city. Every city has it's plusses and minuses. Harsh criticism often says more about the person leveling it than the place.

----------


## NoOkie

> Yeah, it would stink to have to move back to a barn in OKC and live with the farm animals after being in a major city like Fort Worth. Lol.


He's living downtown there and enjoying it, says it's more active and interesting than ours is at the moment.

A large part of it may be the presence of a Flying Saucer and their 300 kinds of beers within walking distance of his office.

----------


## Teo9969

> He's living downtown there and enjoying it, says it's more active and interesting than ours is at the moment.
> 
> A large part of it may be the presence of a Flying Saucer and their 300 kinds of beers within walking distance of his office.


Tapwerks and McNellie's both have quite a selection...Not quite 300, but enough that you wouldn't have to drink a beer twice all month if you didn't want to. Now, Texas gets some great beers we don't, but that's another story.

----------


## Bullbear

> Tapwerks and McNellie's both have quite a selection...Not quite 300, but enough that you wouldn't have to drink a beer twice all month if you didn't want to. Now, Texas gets some great beers we don't, but that's another story.


Actually McNellies has 350 beers and counting... rivals most beer selections around the country.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> He's living downtown there and enjoying it, says it's more active and interesting than ours is at the moment.
> 
> A large part of it may be the presence of a Flying Saucer and their 300 kinds of beers within walking distance of his office.


Fort Worth has an interactive downtown with plenty of shopping, restaurants and bars & night life.  I went there last March.  It is also extremely walkable.  Great city.  So unfortunate that it's that close to Dallas...

I like Fort Worth myself and if I ever lived in the area, I'd choose that side.

----------


## OKCRT

If you like living in Cowtown USA then you will like Ft. Worth. Much more of a cowtown than OKC is. Go out and count the cowboy hats you see there in a day and do the same in OKC and you will understand.

----------


## soonermike81

I have hung out in Dallas and Fort Worth, and not sure which one I like better.  They're two completely different vibes.  Fort Worth is much more laid back than Dallas, probably more so than OKC if you ask me.  I guess you do see a lot of cowboy hats, but that' not that big of a deal if you ask me.  There's seems to be much more going on in downtown FTW than there is in OKC.  It's weird b/c their entertainment districts don't necessarily seem bigger than OKC's, but much more people seem to hang out in at Sundance Square than people do in Bricktown.  Hopefully we can get there in the near future.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> If you like living in Cowtown USA then you will like Ft. Worth. Much more of a cowtown than OKC is. Go out and count the cowboy hats you see there in a day and do the same in OKC and you will understand.


No doubt.  Heck, there were people riding horses for leisure in Fort Worth when I was there...

----------


## stjohn

> Some TransCanada news... sort of...
> 
> http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73686.html


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the word on this first rumored tower is that it will be a North American headquarters for an international company, right?

Now, I'm no geographizer, but I think TransCanada's current Calgary, Alberta HQ is still in North America.

So... We're assuming either they're going to have a main HQ in North America and a separate North American HQ also in North America?  Or is TransCANADA going to completely move their HQ outside of Canada?  If that first part about a North American headquarters is still correct,TransCanada doesn't make sense.

----------


## bombermwc

I would agree. it doesn't make sense for it to be TransCanada. Remember, we're getting a pipeline through OK (like most oil companies) at Cushing. If you didn't know already, pretty much every major oil pipeline makes its way through Cushing at some point. But why would someone based in Calgary want to move to a whole new country...especially when Canada is part of the company's name? Pipelines do not equal moving HQ's folks. Otherwise Devon, Chesapeake, Exon, etc. would have HQ's all over the world...and obviously you don't get to call yourself HQ if there are 20 of you. Now, would they maybe open an office for U.S. HQ as a smaller operation? Could be. Moving the whole company....no.

----------


## G.Walker

When I first read this article http://newsok.com/chaparral-headquar...rticle/3655497 , I was like ok, its Chaparral Energy thats building headquarters downtown, then I kept reading, lol.

----------


## king183

> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the word on this first rumored tower is that it will be a North American headquarters for an international company, right?
> 
> Now, I'm no geographizer, but I think TransCanada's current Calgary, Alberta HQ is still in North America.
> 
> So... We're assuming either they're going to have a main HQ in North America and a separate North American HQ also in North America?  Or is TransCANADA going to completely move their HQ outside of Canada?  If that first part about a North American headquarters is still correct,TransCanada doesn't make sense.


I honestly cannot understand why people keep getting confused on this.  No one has said an international company is planning to build a tower downtown, nor has anyone implied it that I know of.  

Some of you keep conflating two different reports: one which said a company is planning to build their new, corporate headquarters downtown, and another that said the Chamber is attempting to bring an international company to OKC. They aren't the same. Nothing says that if the Chamber is successful in their efforts, then that international company will be building a tower downtown (nothing even says they'll necessarily locate downtown).

----------


## G.Walker

> I honestly cannot understand why people keep getting confused on this.  No one has said an international company is planning to build a tower downtown, nor has anyone implied it that I know of.  
> 
> Some of you keep conflating two different reports: one which said a company is planning to build their new, corporate headquarters downtown, and another that said the Chamber is attempting to bring an international company to OKC. They aren't the same. Nothing says that if the Chamber is successful in their efforts, then that international company will be building a tower downtown (nothing even says they'll necessarily locate downtown).


calm down, most people call this SPECULATION....

----------


## king183

> calm down, most people call this SPECULATION....


No, G. Walker, this isn't speculation.  This is simply having established information incorrect and conflating two pieces of news.  Speculation is fine; persistently ignoring what people have said is not.

----------


## dankrutka

> No, G. Walker, this isn't speculation.  This is simply having established information incorrect and conflating two pieces of news.  Speculation is fine; persistently ignoring what people have said is not.


This.

----------


## metro

> I honestly cannot understand why people keep getting confused on this.  No one has said an international company is planning to build a tower downtown, nor has anyone implied it that I know of.  
> 
> Some of you keep conflating two different reports: one which said a company is planning to build their new, corporate headquarters downtown, and another that said the Chamber is attempting to bring an international company to OKC. They aren't the same. Nothing says that if the Chamber is successful in their efforts, then that international company will be building a tower downtown (nothing even says they'll necessarily locate downtown).


This. People jump the rumor bandwagon too much.

----------


## Pete

One of the things adding to the confusion is the suggestion by Steve that there might be two downtown towers in the offing and many instantly made the leap to tie that in with the chamber's efforts.

----------


## metro

I agree, his purposeful comments are fueling much of the over-zealous rumor mill.

----------


## NoOkie

> Tapwerks and McNellie's both have quite a selection...Not quite 300, but enough that you wouldn't have to drink a beer twice all month if you didn't want to. Now, Texas gets some great beers we don't, but that's another story.


I haven't been to McNellie's, but I may need to try it out.  Tapwerks is a good idea, but I end up getting annoyed with them.  It seems that every time I go there, they're out of my first three or four picks.

----------


## stjohn

> I honestly cannot understand why people keep getting confused on this.  No one has said an international company is planning to build a tower downtown, nor has anyone implied it that I know of.  
> 
> Some of you keep conflating two different reports: one which said a company is planning to build their new, corporate headquarters downtown, and another that said the Chamber is attempting to bring an international company to OKC. They aren't the same. Nothing says that if the Chamber is successful in their efforts, then that international company will be building a tower downtown (nothing even says they'll necessarily locate downtown).





> No, G. Walker, this isn't speculation.  This is simply having established information incorrect and conflating two pieces of news.  Speculation is fine; persistently ignoring what people have said is not.





> One of the things adding to the confusion is the suggestion by Steve that there might be two downtown towers in the offing and many instantly made the leap to tie that in with the chamber's efforts.


Is that just speculation?  I feel like I read that either here or otherwise from a credible source, but maybe not.  Obviously I can't speak first-hand to it, but then again it's been pretty widely discussed throughout the thread.

----------


## Jchaser405

I tried to end this speculation last night. 
I had a class where Russell Claus (City Planning Director) was our main speaker and during his presentation he mentioned how the city's CBD planning has had to adapt to the possibility of a "potential" Headquarters moving to OKC. Later another class member and I asked who was building a tower downtown? Without hesitation and with a slight smirk he said "What tower? There is no tower." The end. I tried guys but my efforts failed....... Let the speculation continue!

----------


## Bellaboo

They're so tight lipped it must be - project X.

----------


## BDP

I don't know why we have to argue about whether something is speculation in a thread specifically dedicated to speculation. I also don't understand why some are feeling the need to attack people for participating in speculation or offering up possibilities here. This is exactly what it is for.

I would suggest that if you don't like speculation or discussion of rumors, then stay off any threads that are designed (and titled) specifically for that type of discussion. The best part about having such a thread is that it can help keep the rumors off threads dedicated to supported and sourced development news.

Everything posted up to this point IS rumor, speculation, conjecture, and/or wishful thinking in the spirit for which the thread was created and it should and will continue to be just that until a name is attached to a confirmed project.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> They're so tight lipped it must be - project X.


It is standard proceedure, especially with companies that have not yet mad announcement, to not reveal information about new companies coming in.  We learned our lession with Harley Davidson in the early 1990's.  We were on the short list for a new plant (top 3 cities) and word leaked out.  They immediately took us off the list entirely.

----------


## MikeLucky

It's AF...  So, I'm inclined to believe the info coming out about them....

----------


## MDot

> It's AF...  So, I'm inclined to believe the info coming out about them....


You're saying you know it's AF or that that's who you think it'll be?

----------


## MDot

> I don't know why we have to argue about whether something is speculation in a thread specifically dedicated to speculation. I also don't understand why some are feeling the need to attack people for participating in speculation or offering up possibilities here. This is exactly what it is for.
> 
> I would suggest that if you don't like speculation or discussion of rumors, then stay off any threads that are designed (and titled) specifically for that type of discussion. The best part about having such a thread is that it can help keep the rumors off threads dedicated to supported and sourced development news.
> 
> Everything posted up to this point IS rumor, speculation, conjecture, and/or wishful thinking in the spirit for which the thread was created and it should and will continue to be just that until a name is attached to a confirmed project.


I can understand someone correcting someone else on a misperception of an already stated fact but I agree with you for the most part.

----------


## Patrick

> You're saying you know it's AF or that that's who you think it'll be?


If you were a shareholder in AF you'd know where he is getting his information from. But, I guess you're not.

----------


## SharkSandwich

> If you were a shareholder in AF you'd know where he is getting his information from. But, I guess you're not.


Very cryptic...  What does it mean?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Very cryptic...  What does it mean?


Shareholder  ??? AF is privately owned isn't it ???

----------


## Just the facts

Even privately owned companies have shareholders.

----------


## MDot

> If you were a shareholder in AF you'd know where he is getting his information from. But, I guess you're not.


Haha, no, I'm not. I haven't even graduated high school yet, being a shareholder of AF or any company for that matter is the last thing on my mind. But, I guess you are so please explain to me.

----------


## jbrown84

> I don't know why we have to argue about whether something is speculation in a thread specifically dedicated to speculation. I also don't understand why some are feeling the need to attack people for participating in speculation or offering up possibilities here. This is exactly what it is for.
> 
> I would suggest that if you don't like speculation or discussion of rumors, then stay off any threads that are designed (and titled) specifically for that type of discussion. The best part about having such a thread is that it can help keep the rumors off threads dedicated to supported and sourced development news.
> 
> Everything posted up to this point IS rumor, speculation, conjecture, and/or wishful thinking in the spirit for which the thread was created and it should and will continue to be just that until a name is attached to a confirmed project.


Well said.

----------


## HOT ROD

Did Devon shareholders know about Devon tower ahead of time, or even before it was publicly announced?

Shareholders dont run companies, they invest in the stock and vote on who will represent the Board. Decisions are decided by the Board and executed by the Executive Team (hence, their Executive this or that titles). The Board decides how to invest corporate dollars and it is up to the CEO to implement it, along with his other chiefs on his team.

ok, now we know corporate 101.

----------


## Just the facts

A shareholder in a private company knows way more about corporate decisions than the shareholder of a public company.

----------


## Bellaboo

> A shareholder in a private company knows way more about corporate decisions than the shareholder of a public company.


A private company 'shareholder' is the ownership group.........they are called the 'Owners'.

----------


## Just the facts

AFLAC is a company similar to AF and they have an 18 story (246') headquarters building in Columbus, GA.  I could go for a new 18 story building downtown (just not like this one).

----------


## dankrutka

Any indication that they're interested in moving,  much less to OKC?

----------


## Just the facts

> Any indication that they're interested in moving,  much less to OKC?


No they are not moving.  I am just saying here is company in the same business and they have an 18 story tower while AF is in the 3 buildings.  If AF moves downtown and builds an owner-occupied tower it might also be about 18 stories.  That's all.

----------


## dankrutka

Gotchya. I didn't catch that that was what you were getting at. If there's any case to be made for moving into a nice corporate tower it should be made making a Devon/Chesapeake comparison.

----------


## Just the facts

Chesapeake is to Devon as AF is to _______.

Answer - AFLAC.

----------


## HOT ROD

im sure Aflac has significant operations in Atlanta and other cities, and that the Columbus HQ is just that - executive offices.

AF, on the other hand, has ALL of their ops in OKC including exec. So that probably would substantiate a building taller than 18 floors.

----------


## Just the facts

> im sure Aflac has significant operations in Atlanta and other cities, and that the Columbus HQ is just that - executive offices.
> 
> AF, on the other hand, has ALL of their ops in OKC including exec. So that probably would substantiate a building taller than 18 floors.


I am pretty sure everything is operated out of Columbus (The 'C' in AFLAC) except for their local agents in the US and Japan, and their Cancer Research Center at Emory University.  AF has about 1,000 OKC based employees so they could easily fit an 18 story tower and it isn't like the insurance industry is subject to growth spurts requiring large jumps in employment numbers.

If it is a MidFirst/AF joint tower then it would be much taller.

----------


## dhawkins

AF's current buildings at 2000 Classen are 10 stories, 8 stories and 7 stories for a total of 25 stories + basements. According to the county there is about 316,000 square feet. How does that compare to the other DT buildings?
Don

----------


## Snowman

> AF's current buildings at 2000 Classen are 10 stories, 8 stories and 7 stories for a total of 25 stories + basements. According to the county there is about 316,000 square feet. How does that compare to the other DT buildings?
> Don


That would depend entirely on how wide and long the building's floors are, 18 floors of Devon tower would be enough to replace all their space and leave room to grow.

----------


## Bellaboo

Maybe they'd also consolidate their other banking and Oil companies in the same building ? That would justify a much larger facility.

----------


## bombermwc

I've already commented on that possibility....it doesn't make sense to combine them...they don't work together...they don't even do similar things. The trouble you run into with that is if you squeeze together, then when a department grows, they end up in weird various points in the building. So if American Fidelity is on floors 2-10, and the bank is on 11-15, AF grows and takes over 16. You're not much better off than being in different buildings.

BTW - i've been to several lunch events with AF IT folks over the years. Never has a single employee ever been told about any plans for anything like this. And the IT would HAVE to be involved because they would be planning the infrastructure of the place. So they would need to be involved from day 1 of the architects. You CANNOT build a building without including IT infrastructure for cabling, power, network, etc. So as it stands, i still see no reason to believe it's AF.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I've already commented on that possibility....it doesn't make sense to combine them...they don't work together...they don't even do similar things. The trouble you run into with that is if you squeeze together, then when a department grows, they end up in weird various points in the building. So if American Fidelity is on floors 2-10, and the bank is on 11-15, AF grows and takes over 16. You're not much better off than being in different buildings.
> 
> BTW - i've been to several lunch events with AF IT folks over the years. Never has a single employee ever been told about any plans for anything like this. And the IT would HAVE to be involved because they would be planning the infrastructure of the place. So they would need to be involved from day 1 of the architects. You CANNOT build a building without including IT infrastructure for cabling, power, network, etc. So as it stands, i still see no reason to believe it's AF.


Yes, and Devon's IT was moved off site.......so much for IT in control. I've been in IT for 32 years and have seen it all. How many different companies are located in lets say Chase ? I'd bet several and i'm sure there are issues with expansion and contraction of office space. It's not like the first time for any floor situation like that. For that matter, consolidation would be more profitable. The state agencies are going through an IT consolidation as we speak within State Finance.

----------


## bombermwc

Actually Devon did plan it.....they had several floors. It made sense for them to be able to create a hardended facility so they moved. But they were still intimently involved. In fact, I would say IT pushed for the move rather than administration. 

You assume that the companies don't already make use of their synnergies where it makes sense. Even if you have multiple companies around town, you can still have centralized IT, HR, Accounting, etc. However, putting the dispirate companies in one building does NOT equate to consolidation of those resources if they aren't already. You simply have one roof with islands under it. That is not efficient.

----------


## Steve

> I've already commented on that possibility....it doesn't make sense to combine them...they don't work together...they don't even do similar things. The trouble you run into with that is if you squeeze together, then when a department grows, they end up in weird various points in the building. So if American Fidelity is on floors 2-10, and the bank is on 11-15, AF grows and takes over 16. You're not much better off than being in different buildings.
> 
> BTW - i've been to several lunch events with AF IT folks over the years. Never has a single employee ever been told about any plans for anything like this. And the IT would HAVE to be involved because they would be planning the infrastructure of the place. So they would need to be involved from day 1 of the architects. You CANNOT build a building without including IT infrastructure for cabling, power, network, etc. So as it stands, i still see no reason to believe it's AF.


No offense, but having had an inside view of the Devon project, the average IT person would not be involved in planning for a new headquarters. Department head? Yes. But they would be under orders not to discuss the project with co-workers and even family. Once the book by Jack and I is released later this year on Devon tower, I think those who read it will have a better grasp on how these things are done. There is so much being said in this thread that obviously involves speculation, guessing, etc. And I understand that.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Yes, and Devon's IT was moved off site.......so much for IT in control. I've been in IT for 32 years and have seen it all. How many different companies are located in lets say Chase ? I'd bet several and i'm sure there are issues with expansion and contraction of office space. It's not like the first time for any floor situation like that. For that matter, consolidation would be more profitable. The state agencies are going through an IT consolidation as we speak within State Finance.


IT was not moved "off site"   a data storage facility was moved off site ..  tons of IT people will be in the new building

----------


## Pete

> the average IT person would not be involved in planning for a new headquarters. Department head? Yes. But they would be under orders not to discuss the project with co-workers and even family.


100% true.

I've managed a bunch of new office projects for a large financial services company and the IT department was also under me.  All the advance planning -- including IT and telecom infrastructure -- was done by the engineers, construction company and outside IT specialists that we contracted with.  The only time the full-time IT staff became involved was near move-in time after most the key decisions had already been made.

Also, before there are public announcements of sensitive company information (like a relocation or merger) usually only the senior management team -- about a dozen key executives -- are included.  They may tell a few key people on their staff but only on a strict need-to-know basis.

I had VP's reporting to me that never knew a lot of big company news until it was made public.

----------


## Bellaboo

> IT was not moved "off site"   a data storage facility was moved off site ..  tons of IT people will be in the new building


All that I know of them is what I read, and it said 4 floors removed for 2 reasons. 1) office configuration change and 2) data center located at WRWA.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> All that I know of them is what I read, and it said 4 floors removed for 2 reasons. 1) office configuration change and 2) data center located at WRWA.


right the data center was moved ... that in no way = all IT ...

most of the IT will be in the tower ... including help desk ...

----------


## Teo9969

> I've already commented on that possibility....it doesn't make sense to combine them...they don't work together...they don't even do similar things. The trouble you run into with that is if you squeeze together, then when a department grows, they end up in weird various points in the building. *So if American Fidelity is on floors 2-10, and the bank is on 11-15, AF grows and takes over 16. You're not much better off than being in different buildings.
> *
> BTW - i've been to several lunch events with AF IT folks over the years. Never has a single employee ever been told about any plans for anything like this. And the IT would HAVE to be involved because they would be planning the infrastructure of the place. So they would need to be involved from day 1 of the architects. You CANNOT build a building without including IT infrastructure for cabling, power, network, etc. So as it stands, i still see no reason to believe it's AF.


I mean, that's just kind of silly. Of course it would still be better than having to drive to another building or walk across a street. The difference in time between going 5 floors and 20 floors in an elevator is insignificant. Even so, if that is a genuine problem, you simply start FF at floors 2-10 and start AF on the top floor and work down and leave expansion room in between. Once you outgrow the building, you start pushing parts of your smaller operation (FF) out of the building into leased office space.

----------


## BoulderSooner

roy williams is giving a Chamber update at tomorrows council meeting ... it should be interesting

----------


## Bellaboo

> right the data center was moved ... that in no way = all IT ...
> 
> most of the IT will be in the tower ... including help desk ...


Makes sense.....I always liked it when my users were in the same building. At times i'd work with users world wide and it could get painful.

----------


## metro

> roy williams is giving a Chamber update at tomorrows council meeting ... it should be interesting


Hopefully he doesn't tell us about MAPS, he tends to be on auto-pilot.

----------


## bombermwc

I'm not stupid, of course the IT people themselves didn't move, just the data center. That's not what I said....not even close. Good lord.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I'm not stupid, of course the IT people themselves didn't move, just the data center. That's not what I said....not even close. Good lord.


wasn't responding to you ..

----------


## Steve

I know this will sound self-promoting, and there's not much I can do about it, but for those of you who found "OKC Second Time Around" a great look behind the scenes at how downtown redevelopment really takes place, there's a book Jack Money and I will have coming out later this year, also to be published by Full Circle Press, that provides the same sort of in-depth look at the planning, development, design and construction of Devon Energy Center. I think it will be a great help in better understanding how these projects proceed from conception to reality....

----------


## SharkSandwich

> I know this will sound self-promoting, and there's not much I can do about it, but for those of you who found "OKC Second Time Around" a great look behind the scenes at how downtown redevelopment really takes place, there's a book Jack Money and I will have coming out later this year, also to be published by Full Circle Press, that provides the same sort of in-depth look at the planning, development, design and construction of Devon Energy Center. I think it will be a great help in better understanding how these projects proceed from conception to reality....


"Jack Money" is one awesome name.

----------


## king183

> I know this will sound self-promoting, and there's not much I can do about it, but for those of you who found "OKC Second Time Around" a great look behind the scenes at how downtown redevelopment really takes place, there's a book Jack Money and I will have coming out later this year, also to be published by Full Circle Press, that provides the same sort of in-depth look at the planning, development, design and construction of Devon Energy Center. I think it will be a great help in better understanding how these projects proceed from conception to reality....


Do you have a release date set yet?

----------


## Steve

Tentatively this fall.

----------


## okcpulse

Awesome.  I will be back in OKC before then.  Perfect excuse to pay a visit to Full Circle.  Starting to accumulate OKC history books.  Now all I need is a historical wall map of OKC.

----------


## metro

> roy williams is giving a Chamber update at tomorrows council meeting ... it should be interesting


 How did Roys update go? Anything of note, or the same ole cheerleading speech?

----------


## edcrunk

> "Jack Money" is one awesome name.


 Almost as good as "Creflo Dollar".

----------


## Just the facts

M favorite name is OU alum - EZ Million




> Elmer Zen "E.Z." Million   |   Visit Guest Book 
> 
> 
> Elmer Zen 'E.Z.' Million, a multifaceted activist who pushed hard for the Oklahoma-Texas football game to be played in Norman every other year, died Saturday in his Norman home. He was 68. A graduate of Weatherford High School, Million became a Norman resident in 1957 and earned his bachelor's degree in mathematics and master's degree in engineering from OU. He ran for public office on numerous occasions, but never won. Published in The Oklahoman from October 26 to October 31, 2009

----------


## skanaly

Nothing new? getting second thoughts on all this...

----------


## lasomeday

I think we won't hear anything this week with the Devon people moving in.  That is probably the big news for the Chamber for this week.  Maybe after that we may hear something.  I think the people in the know don't want to step on anyone's toes and give them the credit they deserve for an incredible feat for OKC.  

I am wondering if we will hear about those two companies looking at OKC?  If the word on the street is right we should hear by mid April on if they chose OKC.  I doubt they would be building a tower, but they may fill some of the office space Devon is leaving behind.

----------


## poe

> I know this will sound self-promoting, and there's not much I can do about it, but for those of you who found "OKC Second Time Around" a great look behind the scenes at how downtown redevelopment really takes place, there's a book Jack Money and I will have coming out later this year, also to be published by Full Circle Press, that provides the same sort of in-depth look at the planning, development, design and construction of Devon Energy Center. I think it will be a great help in better understanding how these projects proceed from conception to reality....


Thanks for the heads-up, Steve.  I've bought "OKC Second Time Around" and "Skirvin" and both books are such great reads.  Thanks for what you've done so far; I'm definitely looking forward to future books.

----------


## YO MUDA

HELLO....HELLooooo....... Helloooooooooo.....

----------


## Bellaboo

> Hey, anyone here with a connection at Baker Hughes?
> 
> They are doing a lot of hiring in OKC it looks like: http://jobs.bakerhughes.com/oklahoma-city-jobs


They are building a large field ops facility over near El Reno. Supposed to hire several hundred. Also, a couple of other O & G servicing companies are doing the same between El Reno and Yukon. An article a couple of months ago was out that 1,500 jobs would be added over the next year or two.

----------


## CurtisJ

I worked for Baker Hughes in Tulsa for a couple of years, now I work for a competitor.  They have a couple small facilities
in S.E. OKC near sooner and 59th.

----------


## fromdust

> Hey, anyone here with a connection at Baker Hughes?
> 
> They are doing a lot of hiring in OKC it looks like: http://jobs.bakerhughes.com/oklahoma-city-jobs


i work for bj's largest competitor. we are building a bigger yard in el reno. they said they wanted to hire 200 more people by summer. don't know if that is going to happen seeing they are cutting people right now. drilling is already down some because of gas being in the crapper and i suspect it could get worse for us. 
bj wouldn't be building a large tower, tho.

----------


## CurtisJ

> I worked for Baker Hughes in Tulsa for a couple of years, now I work for a competitor.  They have a couple small facilities
> in S.E. OKC near sooner and 59th.


Also, looking at the jobs posted, they align pretty well to the technology they work at in those facilities.  Baker Hughes has about 10 distinct product lines each with their own HQ, one is in Claremore, OK the rest are all in Houston/surrounding areas, corporate HQ is also in Houston.  Many of the big wigs in the company don't like having the one rogue product line up in Oklahoma as it is, so I doubt any sort of Baker Hughes HQ would be moving to OKC in the near future.

Good to see that they are hiring though.

----------


## Normanish

> Also, looking at the jobs posted, they align pretty well to the technology they work at in those facilities.  Baker Hughes has about 10 distinct product lines each with their own HQ, one is in Claremore, OK the rest are all in Houston/surrounding areas, corporate HQ is also in Houston.  Many of the big wigs in the company don't like having the one rogue product line up in Oklahoma as it is, so I doubt any sort of Baker Hughes HQ would be moving to OKC in the near future.
> 
> Good to see that they are hiring though.


I can assure you they arent hiring in OKC at the moment They are pretty much at a hiring freeze now. *Even the positions posted in March on their site now say No longer available when you try to add to job cart. *There may be a few random positions that need to be filled in the office or something, but word is they may actually be starting layoffs soon (especially for field guys) Oh and back to the mystery tower info!

----------


## fromdust

> I can assure you they aren’t hiring in OKC at the moment… They are pretty much at a hiring freeze now. *Even the positions posted in March on their site now say “No longer available” when you try to add to job cart. *There may be a few random positions that need to be filled in the office or something, but word is they may actually be starting layoffs soon (especially for field guys)… Oh and back to the mystery tower info!


exactly what i was saying. my company is doing the same. 
if an energy company was thinking about building downtown i dont think its happening now...and chesapeake? forgetitaboutit.

----------


## Pete

On the agenda for today's Economic Development Trust meeting, the posted agenda stated:  "One or more files are marked confidential and are hidden".

This group is the one that deals with incentives for employers to move downtown and/or drastically increase hiring in the next several years.

They also function as the modern-day OCURA, negotiating deals for development of city-owned properties.


Obviously, this item could be almost anything but something is brewing and this is the first time I've ever seen anything on their docket marked confidential.

----------


## MDot

This has grabbed my attention again.

----------


## adaniel

> On the agenda for today's Economic Development Trust meeting, the posted agenda stated:  "One or more files are marked confidential and are hidden".
> 
> This group is the one that deals with incentives for employers to move downtown and/or drastically increase hiring in the next several years.
> 
> They also function as the modern-day OCURA, negotiating deals for development of city-owned properties.
> 
> 
> Obviously, this item could be almost anything but something is brewing and this is the first time I've ever seen anything on their docket marked confidential.


This is why I love OKCTalk....on it like a hawk!!

----------


## soonerguru

> I can assure you they aren’t hiring in OKC at the moment… They are pretty much at a hiring freeze now. *Even the positions posted in March on their site now say “No longer available” when you try to add to job cart. *There may be a few random positions that need to be filled in the office or something, but word is they may actually be starting layoffs soon (especially for field guys)… Oh and back to the mystery tower info!


Not that it means anything, but driving by Deep Fork tonight, the following was on their sign in the parking lot: "Welcome Baker Hughes." It was actually on both sides of the sign. Again, it's not really a big deal that Baker Hughes execs are dining at Deep Fork, but I found it interesting in light of the discussion about them upthread.

----------


## Skyline

> On the agenda for today's Economic Development Trust meeting, the posted agenda stated:  "One or more files are marked confidential and are hidden".
> 
> This group is the one that deals with incentives for employers to move downtown and/or drastically increase hiring in the next several years.
> 
> They also function as the modern-day OCURA, negotiating deals for development of city-owned properties.
> 
> 
> Obviously, this item could be almost anything but something is brewing and this is the first time I've ever seen anything on their docket marked confidential.


Now we have a Mystery File and a Mystery Tower. 

They could be one and the same or they could have no connection.... So many Mysteries!

----------


## NWOKCGuy

> On the agenda for today's Economic Development Trust meeting, the posted agenda stated:  "One or more files are marked confidential and are hidden".
> 
> This group is the one that deals with incentives for employers to move downtown and/or drastically increase hiring in the next several years.
> 
> They also function as the modern-day OCURA, negotiating deals for development of city-owned properties.
> 
> 
> Obviously, this item could be almost anything but something is brewing and this is the first time I've ever seen anything on their docket marked confidential.


I <3 Pete

----------


## edcrunk

> I <3 Pete


I concur. He does so much for us and I totally appreciate it!

----------


## Sheetkeecker

> Read the last 15 posts, and its a great example on how a thread dies.


From over a month ago.   :Gossip: 

The Mystery Tower will never die until it is built.

Any bets on the quarter/year that the announcement will come?

----------


## Pete

Just to stoke the embers a bit, the word I'm hearing on the street is MidFirst/Midland.  Given the way Chesapeake is growing, it makes more sense than ever.


And American Fidelity was definitely poking around but not sure if that is still active.

----------


## Sheetkeecker

The crystal ball says it will be someone deeply involved in natural gas, and perhaps partnered with T. Boone Pickens, or a consortium he might conjure up.

----------


## Spartan

T. Boone would have something in Dallas (or might lavish Stillwater with something).

----------


## Sheetkeecker

A 100-story skyscraper on the OSU campus. 
Making Stillwater look like Pyongyang!    :Bright Idea: 

A real pointy one!

----------


## Beastboii

> A 100-story skyscraper on the OSU campus. 
> Making Stillwater look like Pyongyang!   
> 
> A real pointy one!


Lol

----------


## Spartan

> Just to stoke the embers a bit, the word I'm hearing on the street is MidFirst/Midland.  Given the way Chesapeake is growing, it makes more sense than ever.
> 
> 
> And American Fidelity was definitely poking around but not sure if that is still active.


You guys will crucify men, but who is Midland?

I think American Fidelity will make more sense when a streetcar line is proposed for Classen, because then that land could possibly bankroll the new tower.

----------


## Pete

> You guys will crucify men, but who is Midland?
> 
> I think American Fidelity will make more sense when a streetcar line is proposed for Classen, because then that land could possibly bankroll the new tower.


MidFirst Bank and Midland Mortgage and sister companies that each own/occupy office buildings at the south end of the Chesapeake properties, along I-44.

American Fidelity no longer owns the buildings they occupy.  They sold them to investors several years ago, and lease them back.

----------


## lasomeday

> You guys will crucify men, but who is Midland?
> 
> I think American Fidelity will make more sense when a streetcar line is proposed for Classen, because then that land could possibly bankroll the new tower.


Wow Spartan!  Where have you been?  Midland Mortgage is one of/is the largest privately held mortgage company in the US.  Midfirst owns Midland Mortgage.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> Wow Spartan!  Where have you been?  Midland Mortgage is one of/is the largest privately held mortgage company in the US.  Midfirst owns Midland Mortgage.


Not to get too technical, but MidFirst and Midland Mortgage are actually sister companies (i.e. one doesn't own the other); both are owned by privately-held Midland Financial Company.

----------


## TeriOKC

Actually that is incorrect. Midland Mortgage is a division of MidFirst Bank.

----------


## Spartan

Right, I assumed that the "mid" theme was meaningful somehow. The question I have, does MidFirst considered themselves "invested" in the area around Grand and Western? Granted, they've expanded a LOT since they built the office building they currently occupy, but the "flagship branch" they have on Western is pretty nice inside.

I also didn't realize American Fidelity sold their buildings to investors. They're good as gone, that just makes too much sense. I also agree that that CHK taking over MidFirst's offices makes too much sense, considering A, how much office space they have along Grand (outside the periphery of their main campus), and B, the purchase of the Enogex/BCBS buildings on Lincoln.

Those both seem like very solid possibilities. Also, take into consideration that MidFirst wanted the naming rights of the Chesapeake Arena really bad. They want a downtown icon with their name on it.

----------


## Pete

As a reminder, here are the Mid* properties in relation to the CHK holdings.  MidFirst owns that acreage due north of their building.

----------


## metro

Nvm, read map wrong.

----------


## Thundercitizen

So the purple highlighted areas are those that MidFirst doesn't own?

 :Smile:

----------


## Spartan

Purple is all CHK.

----------


## gurantula35

this is the longest, most painful tease i have ever been apart of.

----------


## Spartan

> this is the longest, most painful tease i have ever been apart of.


Try dating Swedish girls.

----------


## lasomeday

> Try dating Swedish girls.


Good thing you are back to the easy girl in Canada!

----------


## Spartan

Not as easy as Okie girls, where all you need is a nice set of wheels (pref a truck) and some swag...grease lightning! lol. (but you all know it's true)

----------


## catch22

Okie girls are definitely the easiest. Just need a cowboy hat and a Ford F350 King Cattle Ranch Super Powerstroke Diesel Tri-ton Dully with a 8" lift kit and a cattle guard and you can get just about any girl in Oklahoma. There is something in our water, it's not like this in any other state I have been to. I did well for myself despite not having a cowboy hat and the fact that I drive a small sedan....I am one of the lucky few

----------


## dankrutka

> Okie girls are definitely the easiest. Just need a cowboy hat and a Ford F350 King Cattle Ranch Super Powerstroke Diesel Tri-ton Dully with a 8" lift kit and a cattle guard and you can get just about any girl in Oklahoma. There is something in our water, it's not like this in any other state I have been to. I did well for myself despite not having a cowboy hat and the fact that I drive a small sedan....I am one of the lucky few


Wow. Where did you guys grow up? This crap didn't fly in Tulsa. There were about 2 people in my school of almost 2,000 who wore a cowboy hat and they were pretty unsucessful. While these stereotypes that Okie girls undress if they see Garth Brooks may be true in your experiences, the fact that you're bragging about it on a message board makes me a little skeptical. Either way, TMI!

----------


## catch22

> Wow. Where did you guys grow up? This crap didn't fly in Tulsa. There were about 2 people in my school of almost 2,000 who wore a cowboy hat and they were pretty unsucessful. While these stereotypes that Okie girls undress if they see Garth Brooks may be true in your experiences, the fact that you're bragging about it on a message board makes me a little skeptical. Either way, TMI!


I grew up in OKC! All of my girlfriends friend's go crazy if they see guys in cowboy hats ... one of her friends will only go out with a guy if he has a big truck. Maybe it's just a OKC thing. I do see far fewer trucks in Tulsa than OKC, that's for true...

----------


## Spartan

I don't know about Tulsa, but try growing up and going to Westmoore High School..

----------


## Bellaboo

How about a back on topic movement here.....

----------


## catch22

> How about a back on topic movement here.....


Do you have any news to share?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Do you have any news to share?


Yes, 2.00 per thousand NG prices are slowing things down.

----------


## Spartan

> Yes, 2.00 per thousand NG prices are slowing things down.


Well that's a buzz kill. We'd rather just talk about the easiness of...well nevermind.

----------


## catch22

> Well that's a buzz kill. We'd rather just talk about the easiness of...well nevermind.


You could say that CHK would be easy right now, not many buyers....

----------


## Spartan

> You could say that CHK would be easy right now, not many buyers....


This is true, and I hear they do tend to go for guys with big trucks...

----------


## catch22

> This is true, and I hear they do tend to go for guys with big trucks...


As long as they buy NG.

----------


## Bellaboo

> As long as they buy NG.


That's CNG......lol

I guess we'll hear something when the powers that be lets it out.

----------


## SOONER8693

> I don't know about Tulsa, but try growing up and going to Westmoore High School..


It shouldn't matter what you drive if you are a guy and go to Westmoore. There is no shortage of outstanding looking females at WHS, compared to the guy population. Pickins are pretty darn thin for Westmoore girls to choose from.

----------


## Watson410

Someone send me a PM when something important is said on this thread. Preferably something to do with this "So-called" tower.

----------


## Architect2010

Creepers.

----------


## metro

> Someone send me a PM when something important is said on this thread. Preferably something to do with this "So-called" tower.


Nothing important has been said in this thread, hence the title. When real news comes out, it'll have it's own thread.

----------


## BDP

> Nothing important has been said in this thread,


Yet you keep coming back for more...

----------


## bombermwc

I keep coming back to watch the fire burn. It's sort of like a car accident, it's hard to keep yourself from looking. 

I'm in the same camp of everyone is full of crap and i'll believe it when i see it actually being built. Forget "proposed" or foundations done....let me see some structure going up. Far too many buildings in the U.S. have died after their foundations were prepped. Louisville Museum Center (bleh), and the Chicago Spire to think of two big name ones.

----------


## Just the facts

> I keep coming back to watch the fire burn. It's sort of like a car accident, it's hard to keep yourself from looking. 
> 
> I'm in the same camp of everyone is full of crap and i'll believe it when i see it actually being built. Forget "proposed" or foundations done....let me see some structure going up. Far too many buildings in the U.S. have died after their foundations were prepped. Louisville Museum Center (bleh), and the Chicago Spire to think of two big name ones.


What about the Corning plant?  It was rising out of the ground when it died.  Just to be safe, you should wait until employees are moving in before you believe it.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I like the look of Two California Plaza in L.A. 
A modern building with a post-modern look at the bottom would be really unique.



Map

----------


## Just the facts

That building in downtown OKC would be a disaster.  It gets a -3 on the JTF urban development scale (meaning it would actually do more harm than good).  Now if you wanted to rework the first 50 feet of that building then it would be a different story.

----------


## BoulderSooner

"disaster" ... not close to reality ... 

that would look GREAT in okc

----------


## Just the facts

> "disaster" ... not close to reality ... 
> 
> that would look GREAT in okc


Just what part of downtown would it look great in?  Before you answer go to google earth and look at the sidewalk around it.  Do you see anything that looks like something you would like to emulate?

----------


## Spartan

It would be nice to have buildings that were also a part of the human environment.

----------


## Just the facts

> I am pretty sure we get to pick how we build the sidewalk and that an architect who was inspired by this building's design is capable of ensuring that it is pedestrian friendly.  I don't think Will is suggesting we must also adjust the environment around a new building so that it exactly mimics this one.


So what exactly did he mean by "this building would look great" in OKC?  Was he meaning a tall glass building would look great because I can agree with that (sort of).  But if he meant a building with no visible entrance from the sidewalk, large grassy setbacks from the street, and a total lack of retail or any other public amenity then I stand by my comment.  It try to look at a building in its entirety, as if it was meant to be used and interacted with by humans, not something to be viewed and appreciated from 5 miles away.

----------


## Just the facts

> It would be nice to have buildings that were also a part of the human environment.


This.

----------


## Just the facts

That is the problem though - you can pick any building at random in the world and say that would be great in downtown OKC if your only criteria are height and glass.  For me a building starts the second it emerges from the ground.  Some people think buildings only start when the emerge up out of the surrounding urban fabric.  That is why we have 3 million pictures of Devon's crown and not any of the front door.

----------


## dankrutka

> So what exactly did he mean by "this building would look great" in OKC?  Was he meaning a tall glass building would look great because I can agree with that (sort of).  But if he meant a building with no visible entrance from the sidewalk, large grassy setbacks from the street, and a total lack of retail or any other public amenity then I stand by my comment.  It try to look at a building in its entirety, as if it was meant to be used and interacted with by humans, not something to be viewed and appreciated from 5 miles away.


Your ideological rigidity makes it unenjoyable to converse with you. You have one thing to contribute to any "conversation" - new urbanism (I put conversations in quotes because real conversations consist of caring what others have to say... which you don't) . Are you able to even look up at a building, 10 feet off the ground? Or does your vision no longer capable of seeing anything but street level interaction? In sum, lighten up.

This building is beautiful (even if it could have better street level interaction).

----------


## Spartan

Yeah, I don't know if Will was endorsing the entire skyscraper from top to bottom. I think he was referring more to the general addition on the skyline of our city.

----------


## YO MUDA

I like it......but what do I know. Im just a lowly gardner.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

The last few posts are why I'm beginning to get burnt out on keeping up around here.

----------


## ljbab728

> The last few posts are why I'm beginning to get burnt out on keeping up around here.


Stick around Will.  There are always those here who are waiting to pounce on anything that doesn't coincide with their idea of a perfect world but don't let that keep you from giving your ideas.

----------


## Spartan

> The last few posts are why I'm beginning to get burnt out on keeping up around here.


Don't quit Will.

----------


## Just the facts

> The last few posts are why I'm beginning to get burnt out on keeping up around here.


Sorry, I am just trying to get an understanding of why people think certain buildings would make a 'great addition" to downtown OKC.  What makes THIS building a better addition than say the building that is right across the street from this one in LA?  Why is 2 California Place a better addition than US Bank Tower?

US Bank Tower


For the record, I am not endorsing US Bank Tower.  At street level it is just as bad.

----------


## Rover

There are certain people on this board often try to demean other opinions instead of offering their own in a constructive or informative way.  The constant tone of arrogance by some tend to make some hesitant to participate.  There are some bright people contributing...but they need to work on their communication skills and their attitudes.

Will, don't disappear.

----------


## Just the facts

> This building is beautiful (even if it could have better street level interaction).


I actually said that in my post.




> That building in downtown OKC would be a disaster.  It gets a -3 on the JTF urban development scale (meaning it would actually do more harm than good).  Now if you wanted to rework the first 50 feet of that building then it would be a different story.

----------


## Just the facts

> There are certain people on this board often try to demean other opinions instead of offering their own in a constructive or informative way.  The constant tone of arrogance by some tend to make some hesitant to participate.  There are some bright people contributing...but they need to work on their communication skills and their attitudes.
> 
> Will, don't disappear.


Point noted.  So let me rephrase from the beginning:

The building as some very likeable architectural features but if it was in OKC I would hope that it would have better interaction with the sidewalk.

----------


## lasomeday

> Point noted.  So let me rephrase from the beginning:
> 
> The building as some very likeable architectural features but if it was in OKC I would hope that it would have better interaction with the sidewalk.


15 Penn Plaza which was one proposed in NYC a few years ago that didn't happen.  A similar building would be a great addition.  It is tall glass, but had retail on the bottom floors with great interaction to the sidewalk/street.  It looks too much like the Devon tower, but the base could stay the same yet have a different tower arise from it.

----------


## Just the facts

> 15 Penn Plaza which was one proposed in NYC a few years ago that didn't happen.  A similar building would be a great addition.  It is tall glass, but had retail on the bottom floors with great interaction to the sidewalk/street.  It looks too much like the Devon tower, but the base could stay the same yet have a different tower arise from it.


Yes - that would be a good addition to OKC.

----------


## lasomeday

My favorite new building in NYC is 8 Spruce Street  (Beekman Tower).  I could see a similar building being built at Main and Hudson on the Builder's Square building.

This building kept the originall small buildings and built a tower through it.  It kept the street interaction while creating a breathtaking tower.   The building is futuristic sleak yet has the classic interaction with the street.  The first few floors are actually a school.

I wish I was in NYC to take pictures of this building to show the interaction with the street because I cannot find any online.

----------


## BDP

I agree with the sentiment that environmental interaction is more important than height or even aesthetics when it comes to a development increasing the appeal of Oklahoma City and, specifically downtown. I'm all for pretty buildings with 50+ stories, but the end game is to create an vibrant urban option in Oklahoma City that people want to go to, not just look at.

----------


## mdeand

> That is the problem though - you can pick any building at random in the world and say that would be great in downtown OKC if your only criteria are height and glass.  For me a building starts the second it emerges from the ground.  Some people think buildings only start when the emerge up out of the surrounding urban fabric.  That is why we have 3 million pictures of Devon's crown and not any of the front door.


I don't think the Devon "front door" area is finished yet (on the Myriad Gardens side), so getting photos there now would be premature.  I'm not an urban architect or engineer, but I agree the street view of buildings should get first attention when designed.  The Devon project does that, as we'll see more of once the ground-level outside work is finished.  In the meantime, the significant change to the downtown skyline understandably gets the greatest public reaction.

----------


## Rover

I think the size Is important in that housing large numbers of well paid employees creates a volume of traffic in the vicinity.  Without that, there won't be a lot of interaction going on anyway.  The street level environment will always be of prime importance too, of course.  Devon won't create any excitement along the street, except on the west side and at the Colcord.  I agree we don't need another Devon building right now, but we sure need the bodies it houses.

----------


## Just the facts

It will be interesting to see how much sidewalk traffic Devon creates.  Most employees will drive to work, park in an on-site garage, eat in an on-site restaurant, and then leave in their car.  My hope is that a highrise residential building will open a few blocks away and we will see people walk to and from work during the day and remain in the area after 6PM.

----------


## workman45

> point noted.  So let me rephrase from the beginning:
> 
> The building as some very likeable architectural features but if it was in okc i would hope that it would have better interaction with the sidewalk.


*bravo!!!*

----------


## MikeLucky

> That makes no sense. Talking about how a building looks without any context of how it functions is much more akin to building porn. Some are just more pragmatic in their approach and consider a development's total impact on an area. I would certainly consider that much less masturbatory than simply musing only about a building's size and form.


No it makes complete sense to normal people.  I want to see a cool building... my assumption is that all that mundane crap you say here will be done by the people that are paid to make those decisions...  And why would a company in OKC put up the kind of money necessary for a new tower, suddenly decide to absolutely ignore the more pragmatic design elements?

Your argument is the equivalent of saying, "I only like that ferrari if they make sure to properly install brakes and that all the tires are the proper size for the vehicle."

----------


## Just the facts

> No it makes complete sense to normal people.  I want to see a cool building... my assumption is that all that mundane crap you say here will be done by the people that are paid to make those decisions...  And why would a company in OKC put up the kind of money necessary for a new tower, suddenly decide to absolutely ignore the more pragmatic design elements?
> 
> Your argument is the equivalent of saying, "I only like that ferrari if they make sure to properly install brakes and that all the tires are the proper size for the vehicle."


You would like to think that, but yet there is 2 California Plaza and they didn't do it.  Go figure.

----------


## Jim Kyle

Have you walked around downtown L.A.? I've not been out there since 1996, but the photo certainly looks as if it's not far from the old Angel's Flight area and if that's the case, those stairs might well be leading up to what is indeed "street level" on the other side of the building, and the two rows of windows with no doors that we see could be the first and second basement level!

----------


## Just the facts

> Have you walked around downtown L.A.? I've not been out there since 1996, but the photo certainly looks as if it's not far from the old Angel's Flight area and if that's the case, those stairs might well be leading up to what is indeed "street level" on the other side of the building, and the two rows of windows with no doors that we see could be the first and second basement level!


If you look on Google Earth street-view the entire building is very close to (or worse than) what you see in that picture.  It literally looks like they never intended anyone to walk to it.  BTW - it is close to Angel's Flight.

----------


## Rover

> It will be interesting to see how much sidewalk traffic Devon creates.  Most employees will drive to work, park in an on-site garage, eat in an on-site restaurant, and then leave in their car.  My hope is that a highrise residential building will open a few blocks away and we will see people walk to and from work during the day and remain in the area after 6PM.


Agreed

----------


## Rover

I will say that it seems most skyscraper designers are so in love with their project and it's size that they forget or worse, don't care, about how it interfaces in the neighborhood.  They tend to think that ,since they are the big dog that they are the only important thing and the neighborhood will conform to them.  These big project designers tend to be fairly arrogant, by my experience.

----------


## Okie Yorker

> My favorite new building in NYC is 8 Spruce Street  (Beekman Tower).  I could see a similar building being built at Main and Hudson on the Builder's Square building.
> 
> This building kept the originall small buildings and built a tower through it.  It kept the street interaction while creating a breathtaking tower.   The building is futuristic sleak yet has the classic interaction with the street.  The first few floors are actually a school.
> 
> I wish I was in NYC to take pictures of this building to show the interaction with the street because I cannot find any online.


I should be down in SoHo / Financial District sometime in the next few days....I'll try to take some pics of the Beekman tower & post for u.

----------


## Pete

How about this as a solution for the conflict that comes from this thread:

1) When there is something new and specific, a new thread will be created with that information
2) Until then, this thread is for speculation and dreaming


Therefore, if you don't like #2, stay away and wait for #1.


Thanks.

----------


## Sheetkeecker

> How about this as a solution for the conflict that comes from this thread:
> 
> 1) When there is something new and specific, a new thread will be created with that information
> 2) Until then, this thread is for speculation and dreaming
> 
> 
> Therefore, if you don't like #2, stay away and wait for #1.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Perfectly stated.

One would think the title, "Mystery Tower" would allude to that, to most people.

----------


## skanaly

> how about this as a solution for the conflict that comes from this thread:
> 
> 1) when there is something new and specific, a new thread will be created with that information
> 2) until then, this thread is for speculation and dreaming
> 
> 
> therefore, if you don't like #2, stay away and wait for #1.
> 
> 
> Thanks.


agreed

----------


## lasomeday

> I should be down in SoHo / Financial District sometime in the next few days....I'll try to take some pics of the Beekman tower & post for u.


That would be awesome!  I have never seen any street level pictures. They just zoom up to the tower and don't show how it looks walking down the street.

----------


## bombermwc

Agreed

----------


## BDP

> And why would a company in OKC put up the kind of money necessary for a new tower, suddenly decide to absolutely ignore the more pragmatic design elements?


I don't know, but it happens all the time. And if you acknowledge that there are pragmatic elements to consider, then why the hostility towards the conversation about those elements? The point is that if a developer did indeed build a tower just for "oohs and ahhhs" from a distance, then it would be a missed opportunity to improve downtown as whole as it will inevitably command a great deal of prime real estate. Without interaction with the street, it actually just ends up being a large barrier in the middle of a district trying to improve itself. The reality is that the better it interacts with the whole neighborhood, the better the districts becomes and the more motivation other companies and developers have to locate and build there. That's the best way to see exponential growth and improvement. If companies are going to pay a premium to be downtown, there has to be justification for that premium. If all it is is a tower farm with no real difference in interaction with its surroundings, then that premium makes no sense and it's much more sensible to just build a neato looking tower in a cheaper, more isolated location in the suburbs. Some are just looking at the big picture of downtown development as a whole and acknowledge the importance of each development working together with what is already there. The best way to make sure the developments keep coming is for each individual development to make downtown a better place to work, live and play for everyone there, instead of just making it a better place to look at from the freeway.

----------


## Larry OKC

> You would like to think that, but yet there is 2 California Plaza and they didn't do it.  Go figure.


At first I didn't understand *JTF's* opposition to it as it looks like the building is as close to the sidewalk as you can get (no suburban style setbacks etc) but the no interaction part makes more sense now but then again if it is the "basement side" of the building that is a consideration (but why can't "basements" be accessible too?)

----------


## Just the facts

> At first I didn't understand *JTF's* opposition to it as it looks like the building is as close to the sidewalk as you can get (no suburban style setbacks etc) but the no interaction part makes more sense now but then again if it is the "basement side" of the building that is a consideration (but why can't "basements" be accessible too?)


Larry, if you go to Google Earth street-view you can go around the entire building.  The other side of this building does have suburban style setbacks, 120' from the street and no sidewalk interaction.  The parking garage is accessed via an 800' tunnel under Grand Ave.  The whole area is screwed up.  The only Humans they ever intended to walk to this buildings are the ones dropped off by a taxi.

----------


## knightrider

Could this be the company building a tower downtown.?  Dippin' dots!  hahaha 

http://newsok.com/article/3665878?click_action=1

----------


## Just the facts

> Could this be the company building a tower downtown.?  Dippin' dots!  hahaha 
> 
> http://newsok.com/article/3665878?click_action=1


No.




> He said the company's operations and management will *remain* in Paducah.
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-firm-will...#ixzz1rvreNetc

----------


## OklahomaNick

I am NOT a one of the ones that is buying into the possibility of a new tower..
I was at Mark Befforts Forecast presentation and he did NOT say anything about a new tower.
I think this has been TREMENDOUSLY blown out of proportion. 

However.. I keep hearing about out of state construction workers staying in the area because for whatever reason they were told that a new huge project is coming down the pipe. Workers are taking odd jobs all around the metro just to stay and wait. This IS happening. I dont know if their union is lying to them? Probably wouldn't be the first time a union has lied, but because of this; consider myself less of a skeptic. It is fun to dream though!

----------


## Pete

The MidFirst rumors are still running strong and it seems it's just a matter of time before they announce a downtown tower.  However, I don't think it will be on the Pretakes block (immediately west of Devon).

I'm also hearing things about American Fidelity but that is less firm.

----------


## MDot

^^I was curious if American Fidelity was still being talked about.

----------


## OklahomaNick

Being connected to the commercial real estate industry I know that it is a "sexy" trend to no longer own your own building, but rather have someone else own it and long term lease it. That removes a great deal of debt and operations cost from the company balance sheet.

With that said, why would American Fidelity want to BUY a building again when they sold their current space and are in a long term lease on Classen? AND they don't even occupy all their space they have available in their current location.

Midfirst is by far the more reasonable choice for my rational.

----------


## jedicurt

A friend with whom i went to High school with here in Oklahoma, now lives in Arizona with her husband and she is a loan officer at a MidFirst somewhere around Glendale.  and she was talking to me the other day that they are hearing rumors all the way out there about a possible move my MidFirst offices to downtown OKC

----------


## lasomeday

I hung out with three of the construction workers a few weeks ago.  Two are leaving and one will be working one the Sandridge buildings.  They didn't know of any new towers.

----------


## lasomeday

I know this has nothing to do with the towers, but has anyone heard anything about the two mystery companies that might be relocating to OKC?  I heard one was definitely an oil and gas company.

----------


## metro

I heard it was a space rocket company....

----------


## Beastboii

> I heard it was a space rocket company....


Whaa????????

----------


## skanaly

Ha, lots of people including myself, (based on the information that was given) said there would probably be an announcement sometime about now..

----------


## jn1780

> The MidFirst rumors are still running strong and it seems it's just a matter of time before they announce a downtown tower.  However, I don't think it will be on the Pretakes block (immediately west of Devon).
> 
> I'm also hearing things about American Fidelity but that is less firm.


Its hard to sort through all of the Midfirst rumors because as long as the Cheaspeake expansion continues at a rapid pace, everyone and their mother will be spreading Midfirst relocation rumors.

----------


## Spartan

> Ha, lots of people including myself, (based on the information that was given) said there would probably be an announcement sometime about now..


Over mystery tower, or new headquarters?

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Its hard to sort through all of the Midfirst rumors because as long as the Cheaspeake expansion continues at a rapid pace, everyone and their mother will be spreading Midfirst relocation rumors.


Let me contribute another MF rumor.  I've heard they have looked at the OPUBCO complex.

----------


## G.Walker

I can't wait until we hear something solid.

----------


## LuccaBrasi

To add to the "for what's it's worth" department, a colleague of mine is friends with someone who would definitly be "in the know" at AF, and during a recent lunch, he inquired about it the rumored tower. The AF person said it was most definitly not them and it was likely going to be MF for many of the speculative reasons already posted on this thread.

----------


## catch22

> To add to the "for what's it's worth" department, a colleague of mine is friends with someone who would definitly be "in the know" at AF, and during a recent lunch, he inquired about it the rumored tower. The AF person said it was most definitly not them and it was likely going to be MF for many of the speculative reasons already posted on this thread.


Don't say that! The people of this thread can only handle positive space speculation!

----------


## Patrick

One thing to consider about AF as well....they already own a big chunk of land at Santa Fe and Wilshire.

----------


## Patrick

And one thing to consider about Midfirst....they own the large chunk of land directly behind their current building.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> And one thing to consider about Midfirst....they own the large chunk of land directly behind their current building.


....which Chesapeake has been trying to buy for quite a while along with their two buildings.

----------


## Patrick

> ....which Chesapeake has been trying to buy for quite a while along with their two buildings.


True!

----------


## BDP

> Don't say that! The people of this thread can only handle positive space speculation!


And some can't handle any of it at all.

----------


## dankrutka

> I can't wait until we hear something solid.


It seems like there are enough sources recently that point to the possibility of there being no tower in OKC's immediate future. So "if" should be a part of this statement too. Hopefully, the positive info is right.

----------


## G.Walker

> It seems like there are enough sources recently that point to the possibility of there being no tower in OKC's immediate future. So "if" should be a part of this statement too. Hopefully, the positive info is right.


I was meaning something solid either way, so some people can find some closure with this whole thing. For every rumor stated that there is no new tower, there are 3 rumors that there will be a new tower, so who knows what will happen.

----------


## okcpulse

> It seems like there are enough sources recently that point to the possibility of there being no tower in OKC's immediate future. So "if" should be a part of this statement too. Hopefully, the positive info is right.


If this is the case, then why would a major real estate player go on record in The Oklahoman discussing a new tower?  This thread reminds me of how quickly people forget.

----------


## king183

I've been one who has passed on "positive" information from those I know who would be aware of such a tower, so let me also pass on some "negative" information I received pretty recently. I had drinks with a guy heavily involved in downtown commericial real estate. He says Mark Beffort says only a new HQ will be moving downtown and there won't be a new tower. Further, he said there are plans for something like a 5-8 story building for this HQ--again, not a tower.

Now, I spoke with Pete about this in more detail awhile ago because this same guy said some stuff that caused me to question the depth of his knowledge (e.g., some stuff clearly wrong about Sandridge) and made me think he was probably just trying to sound important to me.  Pete raised some excellent points that call into question what the guy is saying, despite his alleged closeness to the situation.  Given everything I've heard, I remain optimistic, but since we're reporting on speculation, I wanted to include the good speculation with the bad.

----------


## Just the facts

To be honest - I would be more than happy with  5 to 8 stories.

----------


## Pete

Meanwhile, there continue to be secret/hidden documents and agenda items for both the Economic Development Trust and City Council.

----------


## G.Walker

First of all, why would a company build only a 5-8 story building downtown, when there is clearly available space  for that size? Second, remember Beffort talked about 200,000+ sqft being soaked up after Devon completes their move. Third, remember there is the possibility of two towers being built, therefore, while one person is hearing a rumor about a particular tower situation, another person might be hearing a rumor about a totally different possible new tower situation. Fourth, Lackmeyer went on record to state a 40 story is possible, so with that being said, there is something going on, but we just don't know all the facts.

----------


## Midtowner

> Meanwhile, there continue to be secret/hidden documents and agenda items for both the Economic Development Trust and City Council.


There's an AG opinion directly on point as to whether not-for-profit corps can hold onto documents pertaining to public-private partnerships.  Goes back to the old OIA days, which Alliance is basically replicating.  Trouble is--now we have an AG who has zero interest in public accountability.

----------


## Oil Capital

> If this is the case, then why would a major real estate player go on record in The Oklahoman discussing a new tower?  This thread reminds me of how quickly people forget.


Perhaps there were legitimate "plans" that are just not coming to fruition.  You work in downtown Houston.  Remember the "ground-breaking" for 6 Houston Center?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> There's an AG opinion directly on point as to whether not-for-profit corps can hold onto documents pertaining to public-private partnerships.  Goes back to the old OIA days, which Alliance is basically replicating.  Trouble is--now we have an AG who has zero interest in public accountability.


are not ongoing negotiations in exec council/board  whatever exempted from open records??

----------


## Pete

We certainly didn't see anything in public records about Continental even for a long time after 20 N. Broadway was sold.

There must have been tons of discussion before that time that were never included in any agendas or minutes.

----------


## Midtowner

> are not ongoing negotiations in exec council/board  whatever exempted from open records??





> 9. All nonprofit foundations,  boards,
> bureaus, commissions, agencies, trusteeships,
> authorities, councils, committees, public trusts,
> task forces or study groups supported in whole
> or part by public funds or entrusted with the
> expenditure of public funds for purposes of conferring on matters pertaining to economic
> development, including the transfer of property,
> financing, or the creation of a proposal to entice
> a business to locate within their jurisdiction if
> ...


^ Never mind.  That's been added since the last time I really had anything to do with the Act, or I just wasn't familiar with that particular provision.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> ^ Never mind.  That's been added since the last time I really had anything to do with the Act, or I just wasn't familiar with that particular provision.


thanks for looking that up  i didn't know what the exact language was.

----------


## Skyline

> Meanwhile, there continue to be secret/hidden documents and agenda items for both the Economic Development Trust and City Council.


Can you explain how these documents are being handled?  Who is viewing these docs and are there votes being taken for the items outcome?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Can you explain how these documents are being handled?  Who is viewing these docs and are there votes being taken for the items outcome?


the council and edt meeting packets are public ...   these are documents that are in the packets that are "hidden" ...   there are and can not be votes taken on hidden items .. just updates on legal matters/negotiations

----------


## Pete

> the council and edt meeting packets are public ...   these are documents that are in the packets that are "hidden" ...   there are and can not be votes taken on hidden items .. just updates on legal matters/negotiations


But they can go into executive session to discuss matters they deem private.

----------


## Okieboy80

Has there been any conceptual sketches/plans for this "mystery" tower? It seems there are lots of debate on whether or not this is in fact a true possiblity?!? I think we could use another High-rise tower to offset the massive Devon tower for our skyline.

----------


## G.Walker

From the Oklahoma City Economic Development Foundation 3rd Quarter report, under Projects/Initiatives completed Jan 1 - March 31

*"The project consultant for the Headquarters Strategy will be in OKC in early April for another purpose; the contract for this work has not been executed and has been put on hold due to the consultant working an active project in OKC; we anticipate that the work will be commence later this year."
*
maybe I am reading too much into this, maybe I'm not, just thought I would add some flame to the fire....

----------


## skanaly

Soooo, nothing big's going to happen soon

----------


## BDP

> From the Oklahoma City Economic Development Foundation 3rd Quarter report, under Projects/Initiatives completed Jan 1 - March 31
> 
> *"The project consultant for the Headquarters Strategy will be in OKC in early April for another purpose; the contract for this work has not been executed and has been put on hold due to the consultant working an active project in OKC; we anticipate that the work will be commence later this year."
> *
> maybe I am reading too much into this, maybe I'm not, just thought I would add some flame to the fire....


I can't even tell what that is saying. When it says "the contract for this work", is it talking about a contract for the consultant to work for the Headquarters Strategy, or is it talking about the "another purpose". By the same token, when it says "the work will be commence later this year", to what work are they referring: consulting work for the Headquarters Strategy or this other project for which the mystery consultant is in town.

More questions than answers, but someone is in town working on something and will start some other work some other time. : )

----------


## OKCRT

> I can't even tell what that is saying. When it says "the contract for this work", is it talking about a contract for the consultant to work for the Headquarters Strategy, or is it talking about the "another purpose". By the same token, when it says "the work will be commence later this year", to what work are they referring: consulting work for the Headquarters Strategy or this other project for which the mystery consultant is in town.
> 
> More questions than answers, but someone is in town working on something and will start some other work some other time. : )


When it says that the work will commence later this year they must be talking about the new tower. Since that is what everyone wants it just has to be. I say get off your lazy azzses and get to work now. I want to see that shiny new tower start rising soon,at least by May...

Seriously,that little snippet could mean just about anything. Not enough inf. there to even make a guess to what they are talking about.

----------


## G.Walker

> When it says that the work will commence later this year they must be talking about the new tower. Since that is what everyone wants it just has to be. I say get off your lazy azzses and get to work now. I want to see that shiny new tower start rising soon,at least by May...
> 
> Seriously,that little snippet could mean just about anything. Not enough inf. there to even make a guess to what they are talking about.


I don't know, but if you have to hire an out of town/state consultant for a project labeled "Headquarters Strategy", it must be something big.

----------


## Spartan

The headquarters project is nothing new though. There has been an ongoing focus on trying to attract new headquarters, similar to Houston's MO.

----------


## JWil

> Yes, MidFirst swept up some failed banks in Phoenix in 2009 and employ a bunch of people out there.  Have at least 20 branches now.
> 
> Their name is on top of a 28-story building in downtown Phoenix so they must occupy a good portion of it.  Also, they are leasing that space when they obviously prefer to own their buildings.
> 
> The idea of consolidating that office with those in OKC is an interesting idea.  They are definitely growing and have the money to build.  And has been mentioned before, has a built-in buyer for it's present property in Chesapeake.


MidFirst is definitely up to something in the long-term. They just struck an interesting agreement with Arizona State to turn the school's ID cards into ID cards/debit cards connected with a MF bank account. Currently, ASU has 72,000 students and the deal is for 10 years. Basically, that's an entirely new market to bring in future customers. With over 10,000 freshmen each year, that's a big opportunity for MF to expand its banking presence in Arizona and maybe even California after that, as ASU gets kids from California like OSU/OU get kids from Texas. 

It might not have a ton to do with the mystery tower, but I can see something like this really growing the company, which I'd think would bode well for them being the mystery tower company. 

cfo.asu.edu/cardservices-pitchfork

https://asu.midfirst.com/pitchfork-card

----------


## Skyline

Somewhere in this topic is the discussion of a rumor with Centex as a mystery corporation possibility. 

After reading this story the name Centek comes up and was probably the international company name being discussed instead. http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-cons...rticle/3669063

----------


## jedicurt

so i would assume the north west corner of the intersection is where they would build?  or i wonder if they would just move into an already empty building... if $200,000 is all they need as an incentive, i would think they would be moving into an existing structure, right?

----------


## OklahomaNick

I can assure you that a "Headquarters Strategy" is not a plan to move a company here, but a strategic 10 to 20 year plan to attract and market companies to OKC for the purposes of establishing their headquarters here. This is NOT connected to all this mystery tower speculation.

----------


## Pete

I would imagine Centek will build on the property highlighted in yellow below, which is currently owned by Precor Ruffin (Pretakes).

All that vacant property on the west side of MacArthur is owned by the State.  Just west of that is the massive Hobby Lobby complex.

That area is really becoming a significant center of distribution and light manufacturing facilities.

----------


## Skyline

> I would imagine *Centex* will build on the property highlighted in yellow below, which is currently owned by Precor Ruffin (Pretakes).
> 
> All that vacant property on the west side of MacArthur is owned by the State.  Just west of that is the massive Hobby Lobby complex.
> 
> That area is really becoming a massive center of distribution and light manufacturing facilities.


?^^ Pete, I think you just did it. That is how rumors get started, Lol. Centek is not Centex.

----------


## Pete

Thanks for pointing out the error!  I've now corrected it.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Somewhere in this topic is the discussion of a rumor with Centex as a mystery corporation possibility. 
> 
> After reading this story the name Centek comes up and was probably the international company name being discussed instead. http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-cons...rticle/3669063


Centek is opening a manufacturing facility here to serve the US market. They manufacture a colar used in the oil and gas industry.  Below is the news article from November 2011.  They won't build anything downtown.

November 17 2011
OKLAHOMA CITY  Two oil-field service manufacturing companies, U.K.-based Centek Inc. and Oklahoma City-based UE Manufacturing, plan to create more than 250 new jobs in the city over the next five years to keep pace with increased demand for oil-field equipment in the region.

The Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust will consider entering into negotiations with both companies this week for job creation incentive money through the citys $75 million Strategic Investment Program.

Based in southwestern England, Centek makes well casing stabilizers used in oil and gas drilling. The company plans to open its first manufacturing plant in the United States in Oklahoma City to serve its customers in the United States and Mexico.

Oklahoma is kind of at the center geographically as to where they will provide equipment, so Oklahoma City made a lot of sense to them, said Cathy OConnor, general manager of the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust.

Attempts to contact company officials in Newton Abbot, Devon, in the U.K. were unsuccessful on Monday.

I believe the proximity to their market was really a key factor, said Robin Roberts-Krieger, executive vice president of economic development for the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber. They liked what they saw, liked the cost of doing business here and we were able to make it work for them.

Centek wants to begin negotiations with the city for $200,000 in job creation incentives for opening its new North American manufacturing plant here, according to a report to the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust. The company would create anywhere from 60 to 100 new jobs in Oklahoma City over the next three to five years. The jobs would have an average first-year wage of $41,850.

Oklahoma City-based UE Manufacturing, a subsidiary of oil-field equipment company UE Engines, has plans to add 170 new manufacturing jobs in the city over the next five years with an average first-year wage of $37,428.

The company manufactures oil-field service equipment that is distributed across the continental United States, with a concentration of customers in Oklahoma and Texas, said Ronnie Stover, vice president of UE Manufacturing.

The company is expanding to keep pace with growing demand because of new oil and gas activity across the country, Stover said.

Business is good, along with activity in the oil field, he said. If its good, then we are too.

The company had considered moving some of the new jobs to Texas, because of its customer base there. The availability of incentive money factored into the companys decision to keep the jobs in Oklahoma City, Stover said.

The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber has recommended that the city give UE Manufacturing $340,000 in Strategic Investment Plan money for the new jobs.

The citys Strategic Investment Plan was created in 2007 to encourage companies to expand or move their operations to the city by providing cash payments to companies that meet certain annual payroll and wage requirements.

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## bombermwc

> It might not have a ton to do with the mystery tower, but I can see something like this really growing the company, which I'd think would bode well for them being the mystery tower company.


While it does create growth, it doesn't require any extra manpower. That sort of electronic transaction system is really a cash crop for the bank. It's a lot of transactions with little manpower requirements to support it. Yes, it will help the bank grow in terms of cash flow (on the transaction fee), but not in terms of bodies needing more room to sit...ie a new building. Remember though, banks make money by making loans. Debit transactions like this aren't as big of a deal. You have to have an agreement with a major card carrier (mastercard in this case) and that takes away profit from the deal as well. 

To be honest, it's not really a win for the school. If you're looking for an internal payment card for institution based facilties, an internal card system would be more beneficial and have far less overhead. Most of the major schools in the state already do it that way without requiring a bank to be part of the system. Then they leave the "OU Card" or whatever to the banks as an item seperate from student services. Or more clearly as an example, the student ID at OCU was used for copies/printing/library/etc as well as your payment for cafeteria/coffee/etc. While you could still get a credit card that had a big OCU logo on it from Mastercard (notice a pattern with the education instituations with mastercard and NOT visa?). Down side is, the mastercards carried a 20+% interest rate...ie screw job.

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## Rover

Centek won't be building a tower.  These are blue collar jobs.  Good for Oklahoma City, but not a downtown addition.  I know mgmt there.  Trust me, not a tower unless it is a secret kept from the US management staff.

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## Pete

Somebody's been reading this thread:


April 26th, 2012 - Kelley Chambers
*Whatever happened to that?!?*

In the Oklahoma City metro area and its surrounding communities, many development projects have been planned, talked about or reported as forthcoming. Some projects took off and did well, while others never came to fruition. Some just fell off the radar. okcBIZ takes a look at some of these commercial projects to see whether these deals are moving forward or dead in the water. Simply put, “Whatever happened to that?!?”


*1. Mystery tower and Main Street Properties*
Southwest corner of the intersection at Hudson Avenue and Main Street

The plan: While nothing ever was proposed for several properties along Main Street and Hudson Avenue Downtown, developer Nick Preftakes purchased the buildings for more than $12 million, closed a parking garage, and left the remaining space vacant. With the properties just across the street from the Devon World Headquarters, some speculated he bought them as the site for a future office tower due to the vacant space and no call for new tenants. Some ears perked up when, in February at the Commercial Real Estate Council’s yearly forecast, Mark Beffort, a commercial real estate broker with Grubb & Ellis Levy Beffort, told attendees that work on a new corporate headquarters would begin Downtown this year. The Preftakes properties were again mentioned, especially with their proximity to Devon.

The problem: Years have passed with no activity on the buildings. Preftakes’ only properties on the block that were occupied were by the Lunch Box on Sheridan Avenue, and the tower at 1 N. Hudson Ave. As of press time, no plans have been announced for a new tower Downtown.

The prospect: It seems unlikely that Preftakes has plans for a tower at the Main and Hudson site. In March, his firm, Precor Ruffin, advertised about 50,000 square feet of the vacant space for lease at a rate of $15 per square foot for properties in the 400 block of W. Main Street. Rick Pritchett, with Precor Ruffin, stated in the marketing materials that the buildings can be modified to suit tenant specifications. The properties include about a fourth of the block on the northeast corner.

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## lasomeday

So, is Blue Knight the company we have been talking about relocating to OKC?  I hope not. They might be moving 10 people at most while leaving the rest in Tulsa.

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## king183

No, it's not. We've known about Blue Knight moving here for a very long time.

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## BoulderSooner

> Somebody's been reading this thread:
> 
> 
> April 26th, 2012 - Kelley Chambers
> *Whatever happened to that?!?*
> 
> In the Oklahoma City metro area and its surrounding communities, many development projects have been planned, talked about or reported as forthcoming. Some projects took off and did well, while others never came to fruition. Some just fell off the radar. okcBIZ takes a look at some of these commercial projects to see whether these deals are moving forward or dead in the water. Simply put, “Whatever happened to that?!?”
> 
> 
> ...


is my memory bad or did we not discover that the properties were always being "advertised" .. and that it was not a new listing

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## Pete

They had listed some of those properties for a while but I don't think all of them.

I'm still not convinced that listing them now represents any sort of major shift.  When Preftakes actually puts some money into one of those structures I'll believe that his intention is to renovate rather than scrape.  He has already demolished the one building west of the Lunch Box.

He's sat on most of them for years and hasn't invested a dime as far as I can tell.

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## G.Walker

I believe this is still the location for the mystery tower. Acquiring the Union Bus Station was the last piece of a major puzzle Preftakes needed to complete before considering redeveloping the block. Everything is in place now, and with a new parking garage going across the street, and Project 180 wrapping up in this area, we might get an official announcement sooner than later.

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## Pete

BTW, for lots of reasons I'm still convinced Preftakes is operating as a proxy for Nichols/Devon.

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## BoulderSooner

> BTW, for lots of reasons I'm still convinced Preftakes is operating as a proxy for Nichols/Devon.


i agree with you

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## OklahomaNick

> BTW, for lots of reasons I'm still convinced Preftakes is operating as a proxy for Nichols/Devon.


But what would Devon want for that site? Other than to control what type of building is designed next to them..

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## Bellaboo

> But what would Devon want for that site? Other than to control what type of building is designed next to them..


I remember when Preftakes was getting a demolition permit for the building on Sheridan, that some of Devon's corporate attorneys were present.
FWIW

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## G.Walker

It could be a two-fold scenario. Preftakes acting as a proxy for Devon with Devon acting as a proxy for mystery company.

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## Pete

> But what would Devon want for that site? Other than to control what type of building is designed next to them..


Several possible reasons:  1) general downtown improvement; 2) future expansion; and 3) brokering a deal to bring another large company downtown.


I will also say that the fact none of these properties have been improved -- especially assuming Devon's huge resources are behind all this -- is very telling.

Preftakes has owned some of those buildings for over six years.

----------


## metro

> BTW, for lots of reasons I'm still convinced Preftakes is operating as a proxy for Nichols/Devon.


Me too




> But what would Devon want for that site? Other than to control what type of building is designed next to them..


 ding ding ding

----------


## Just the facts

Devon parking - on site
Devon food - on site
Devon entertainment - on site

Is it hard to imagine Devon residential - on site?

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## OKCisOK4me

> Devon parking - on site
> Devon food - on site
> Devon entertainment - on site
> 
> Is it hard to imagine Devon residential - on site?


Granted, it's more of a campus, but isn't there something like that in the long term master plan for Chesapeake? IIRC, they were going to build housing units on the most eastern side of their property closest to the railroad tracks.

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## Rover

> Devon parking - on site
> Devon food - on site
> Devon entertainment - on site
> 
> Is it hard to imagine Devon residential - on site?


Devon understands its core business is oil and gas, not real estate development.  Smart companies know their core competency and don't stray. I also think that Larry wants others to share in the development of downtown. I do not believes he wants this to turn into Devon City, OK.  I think their interest is more as Pete has suggested...hold a strategic property to enable a big dog to come to town.  Or if Devon chooses to make a large acquisition soon, it gives them a place to fully expand with Energy Center II.

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## Spartan

> I will also say that the fact none of these properties have been improved -- especially assuming Devon's huge resources are behind all this -- is very telling.
> 
> Preftakes has owned some of those buildings for over six years.


I agree, but why would the bus station be the property that is rehabilitated if the rest of the block is scraped?

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## Snowman

> I agree, but why would the bus station be the property that is rehabilitated if the rest of the block is scraped?


If they were going to agree to a rehabilitation that may be demolished later the bus station is one of the smaller properties and more likely a condition of the seller, thus indicating they tried for legal reasons.

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## Spartan

Oh, I wouldn't doubt that it was a condition of the seller--and I think it would be successful in keeping the building standing.

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## SoonerBoy18

I am probably the least optimistic person about this whole mystery tower, I'll beleive it when I see it. But a crazy thought; since they say "Ford is the best in Oklahoma" wouldnt it be great if they relocated here.

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## catch22

> I am probably the least optimistic person about this whole mystery tower, I'll beleive it when I see it. But a crazy thought; since they say "Ford is the best in Oklahoma" wouldnt it be great if they relocated here.


They do the same advertising in every state, and for products that match the demographics. So in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, North Florida, etc. They push their trucks and how they are the best in Oklahoma. In states with less of a pickup mentality, they push their cars, and how they are the best in XXXXXXX.

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## blangtang

bump for the mystery of the mystery tower

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## skanaly

Lets go back to the quote, "a new headquarters will be built downtown starting this year..." This is the quote that gotr this all started...now what has happened to that? Was that all just an assumption, or is it actually a true statement. The fact that Beffort said this makes us all think it's legit, but could it very well be wrong? I would think he would've said something else by now...

----------


## HangryHippo

> Lets go back to the quote, "a new headquarters will be built downtown starting this year..." This is the quote that gotr this all started...now what has happened to that? Was that all just an assumption, or is it actually a true statement. The fact that Beffort said this makes us all think it's legit, but could it very well be wrong? I would think he would've said something else by now...


That quote has been quite the source of consternation and now seems to have been nothing but wishful thinking.

----------


## kevinpate

in the fwiw category ... today is merely May 18.  That leaves a whole lotta potential start days remaining.

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## Oil Capital

> in the fwiw category ... today is merely May 18.  That leaves a whole lotta potential start days remaining.


+1

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## Dustin

> in the fwiw category ... today is merely May 18.  That leaves a whole lotta potential start days remaining.


I was just thinking this.  We still have more than half a year left.

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## OKCisOK4me

> I was just thinking this.  We still have more than half a year left.


...and what was it, a year and a half between Devon's official announcement and actual construction?

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## CuatrodeMayo

I see the collective OKC Talk ADD is kicking in.

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## Pete

I moved all the posts about American Fidelity and OPUBCO to a new thread:  http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=OPUBCO

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## lasomeday

> I moved all the posts about American Fidelity and OPUBCO to a new thread:  http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=OPUBCO


So, have the mystery two companies looking at OKC opt out and decide not to move here.  It was two months ago we starting hearing stuff.  I have no hope for this tower now after the AF news.  They were our best hope besides the outsided chance of a new company.  Midfirst is still a 5% chance.  With Preftakes taking a different stance on their property.  I don't see much hope for a new Mystery Tower.

The only tower in the future will be the convention center hotel, and small chance for a residential tower.

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## Spartan

I think lasomeday is right.

----------


## betts

Me too.  I suspect AF was thinking about building downtown, which started all the rumors, and went for existing space instead.

----------


## Pete

MidFirst is still very much a possibility.

----------


## BrettM2

> MidFirst is still very much a possibility.


How is Chesapeake going to play into this?  Will they still be able to buy MidFirst's existing properties or will it not matter?

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## Pete

Chesapeake is still splashing out plenty of cash for real estate.

Just in the last few months they have spent millions for building permits to renovate the Central Park and Atrium Towers buildings, bought a bunch of land north of their campus, announced a big development at 50th & Western, had plans approved to expand Classen Curve, started renovation of Nichols Hills Plaza, continued construction on about half a dozen major campus projects, etc., etc.

But if I was MidFirst, I would take CHK's offer sooner rather than later.

----------


## G.Walker

Looks like AF is out of the running for the Mystery Tower, or were they even there to begin with? Not many prospects left...this speculation is slowing fading...maybe some posters were right, we are not getting new tower anytime soon...

----------


## Pete

AF was definitely in the hunt, but now completely out.

MidFirst is still a very real possibility.

----------


## soonerguru

This seems like a big blow to midtown/uptown areas. Losing a big tenant like that to the 'burbs is a bummer.

----------


## G.Walker

> This seems like a big blow to midtown/uptown areas. Losing a big tenant like that to the 'burbs is a bummer.


Like

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## soonerguru

And what a drag for the AF employees. So many of them live in Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, etc. Now they have to do the reverse commute to nowhere.

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## jedicurt

how far of a move is this for AF?... i was thinking in my mind like 6 miles, right?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> And what a drag for the AF employees. So many of them live in Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, etc. Now they have to do the reverse commute to nowhere.


Not to mention, they are now going to have to deal with the 8 year plan of the I-44/Broadway Extension interchange...have fun!

----------


## G.Walker

At least we still have MidFirst to hope for, but if they move somewhere other than downtown, then we maybe out of luck for a new tower in the near future.

----------


## catcherinthewry

FWIW I heard from a friend of mine at Flintco the OG&E was considering building downtown.

----------


## lasomeday

> FWIW I heard from a friend of mine at Flintco the OG&E was considering building downtown.


It would be nice, but they have already moved all their offices downtown.  It would be great if they sold their current building and built a tower.  I don't know if it would be soon because they just moved their offices from over by CHK to Leadership.

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## lasomeday

Still don't have a strong feeling that Midfirst will build.  They are not known for having quality workspace for their employees.  I don't see them making a push to build a nice new tower.  It would be a serious PR and employee perk for them to build a new nice building instead of the sub par offices they have for most of their employees in converted old Wal-Marts.

----------


## betts

Jeff Records has held the same two lots in Nichols Hills for years without building on them.  Maybe it takes him a long time to make decisions.  Regardless, I agree that it's as likely Midfirst won't build a tower as that they will.

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## Pete

MidFirst made on offer on the OPUBCO property and they are very much out of space in their current locations.  And we all know Chesapeake really wants their two buildings and land.

I've heard that Records wants a fortune for those properties; that Chesapeake's typical 2 to 5 times market value might not even be enough.

However, I believe CHK's days of extravagant spending are about to come to a quick end and that will leave MidFirst without an obvious buyer.

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## G.Walker

> It would be nice, but they have already moved all their offices downtown.  It would be great if they sold their current building and built a tower.  I don't know if it would be soon because they just moved their offices from over by CHK to Leadership.


It could just be temporary, it does take 2-3 years to build a good size tower.

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## lasomeday

> It could just be temporary, it does take 2-3 years to build a good size tower.


G,

OG&E is not growing as fast as other companies. I see Continental running out of space before them and OG&E leasing more office space in Leadership.

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## Spartan

> FWIW I heard from a friend of mine at Flintco the OG&E was considering building downtown.


I overheard this exact same rumor last week. Asked Pete and Steve about it and it was news to them. OG+E is a weird company...

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## bombermwc

I still say don't hold your breathe on MidFirst. They really haven't been given any reason to move. And for a bank to move, is a real total horrible pain the rear. If they use PO box addresses (which can still be delivered to the business' address...we do it every day to our office), then it's not as big of a deal. 

Anyone know if they have a data center on-site? If they do, it's an opportune time to move it out to a hosted facility. It makes it easier to be more "mobile" in the future as well. 

But we interact with the business side of MidFirst daily and if they are planning anything at all, they sure aren't telling their employees. That's not typical these days though. Most folks with get some information about things like that at an early point in the process. They might not know the minor details, but they would know about a move in the works. The smart companies figured out long ago, that when you keep secrets from your employees, it only harms your relationship with them. But if you allow the general employee base to knows general plans (like a masterplan), it can often turn from being "problematic" to enthusiastic...just by telling them upfront and openly. What could be "those corporate so-and-so are gonna make me drive twice as far now", turns into "'im going to get a whole spanking new office, which makes a little bit longer drive worth it".

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## GaryOKC6

I had a lunch meeting with a group of architects today and they were talking about Cemex coming to Oklahoma City.  None of them had any specific details.  I remembered that I had seen the name kicked around on this thread and thought that it was worth mentioning again.

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## Bellaboo

> I had a lunch meeting with a group of architects today and they were talking about Cemex coming to Oklahoma City.  None of them had any specific details.  I remembered that I had seen the name kicked around on this thread and thought that it was worth mentioning again.


They must be confusing 'Cemex' with Centex, the British oil field service company..

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## Spartan

Isn't Cemex taking up space in One Place in Tulsa?

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## GaryOKC6

> They must be confusing 'Cemex' with Centex, the British oil field service company..


They were specificaly talking about cement companies when the mentioned Cemex.  I know someone at Centek.  They manufacture a collar use on oil wells.  It sounded like Cemex was going to open a plant here.  I just remembered seeing them mentioned in this string and found it interesting.

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## Bellaboo

> Isn't Cemex taking up space in One Place in Tulsa?


Cimarex - O&G firm based in Denver.

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## Bellaboo

> They were specificaly talking about cement companies when the mentioned Cemex.  I know someone at Centek.  They manufacture a collar use on oil wells.  It sounded like Cemex was going to open a plant here.  I just remembered seeing them mentioned in this string and found it interesting.


I think Cemex has been covered pretty thoroughly, US base in Houston, headquartered in Monterrey Mx.

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## G.Walker

> Isn't Cemex taking up space in One Place in Tulsa?


No, you are thinking of Cimarex Energy, that is based in Denver, CO. Who has offices in Tulsa. They are leasing the majority of the new One Place Tower, that is why its being called Cimarex Tower.

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## G.Walker

The rumors about Cemex moving to Oklahoma City started about a year ago, this was one the first company names thrown around the rumor mill, when the speculation of a new headquarters in Oklahoma City started...so we will see...

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## bombermwc

So those rumors sound like someone getting the names confused then. I'd call bunk on that one.

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## Spartan

Bomber... sigh... these are all rumors, they begin their life as bunk, and then we'll see what comes to fruition.

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## MikeLucky

> So those rumors sound like someone getting the names confused then. I'd call bunk on that one.


Actually it sounds like the person talking about the Cemex rumor is the one person that knows exactly what he's saying... it's everyone else that is confusing the issue.

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## Cocaine

looks like the mystery is dead.. for now at least.

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## Watson410

I wish someone would announce something, so we would have something to look forward to... SOMETHING! ANYTHING!!

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## Spartan

> looks like the mystery is dead.. for now at least.


This.

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## Cocaine

> This.


*That.*

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## HangryHippo

The other.

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## Pete

I'm afraid the mystery tower may be dead as well.

I know there was something happening on this front but everything seems to have cooled down, especially with the American Fidelity purchase of the OPBUCO properties.

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## G.Walker

Then I wonder what Beffort/Lackmeyer were talking about? I wish we could get some type of update or something.

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## Pete

I think they both were talking about AF and/or MidFirst.

MidFirst may still happen but frankly I think the changes at Chesapeake will result in a domino effect wherein MidFirst will no longer be able to parlay their existing properties into enough cash to make it worth their while to build new -- at least downtown.

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## G.Walker

Being that our most reliable sources like Steve/Unfraskn/Metro have been pretty absent from this thread in months is kinda fishy....

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## catch22

Oh C'mon...... Grasping at straws now G. Walker.

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## Pete

Steve & I have pretty much the same information.

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## Plutonic Panda

I'm sorry but I like to dream little  :Wink:

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## Spartan

I'd bring your hopes a little more in line with this lol:

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## Plutonic Panda

> I'd bring your hopes a little more in line with this lol:


 haha yeah right. I love to dream man lol. When/if do you think that they might announce a new tower? I know that alot of people were saying later this year, but is it just speculation or is there really a strong possibility?

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## CuatrodeMayo

> haha yeah right. I love to dream man lol. When/if do you think that they might announce a new tower? I know that alot of people were saying later this year, but is it just speculation or is there really a strong possibility?


There are 1356 posts above yours that will give you as much infomation as anybody here knows...

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## Plutonic Panda

> There are 1356 posts above yours that will give you as much infomation as anybody here knows...


 ok

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## dankrutka

> ok


I'll save you time. A few months ago there were wild rumors of one or two towers. Those rumors, partly because of American Fidelty's move into OPUBCO's building (picture above), have almost completely died down. At this time it does not seem like there will be any towers coming... at least in the short term...

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## Just the facts

To add to what KilgoreTrout said, with AF opting to buy the OPUBCO Tower instead of vacant OPUBCO land downtown it is safe to say that the prospects for a new tower have greatly diminished.  Couple that with the uncertainty around Chesapeake, it seems unlikely MidFirst will have a motivated buyer for their current headquarters.  With AF buying such a small tower I am not sure how big of a downtown building they were even going to construct - certainly wouldn't have been anything as big as Devon Tower.

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## mmonroe

Maybe the Oklahoman is making some changes and now they will build downtown... speculation of course.

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## OklahomaNick

> Maybe the Oklahoman is making some changes and now they will build downtown... speculation of course.


The reason they sold their building was because they have greatly diminished their staff and they simply were not using almost half of their building. That's one of the big reasons why they sold. If the Oklahoman moves downtown (BIG if) they won't need a lot of space.. Thus unlikely to build.

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## GaryOKC6

> The reason they sold their building was because they have greatly diminished their staff and they simply were not using almost half of their building. That's one of the big reasons why they sold. If the Oklahoman moves downtown (BIG if) they won't need a lot of space.. Thus unlikely to build.


Yea, I believe that they are moving towards a digital publication.  You do not need a huge staff or space for that.  Print is a dying breed.

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## Just the facts

If there is no paper - will it still be called a newspaper?

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## Larry OKC

Why not, even though vinyl is dead, we still call them "records"

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## sgt. pepper

Maybe the Oklahoman can move into there old building downtown?

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## gurantula35

Any chance that Continental could start building a tower within the next 3-5yrs? they are expanding rapidly and are hiring people like crazy.  i wouldnt think it would be too far fetched.

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## Snowman

> Any chance that Continental could start building a tower within the next 3-5yrs? they are expanding rapidly and are hiring people like crazy.  i wouldnt think it would be too far fetched.


It would need unexpected growth on top of what they are already doing to be needed in 3-5 years, they planed to triple in size over the next five years, which is why they moved here.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I'll save you time. A few months ago there were wild rumors of one or two towers. Those rumors, partly because of American Fidelty's move into OPUBCO's building (picture above), have almost completely died down. At this time it does not seem like there will be any towers coming... at least in the short term...


 Thanks  :Smile:

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## G.Walker

I honestly think there is still a possibility for a new tower soon. No one has officially announced that there will or will not be building a new tower, until that happens, I think there is still a possibility. Everything is still pure speculation until someone announces something either way. You would think that if Beffort announced there will be a new headquarters, he would announce that that project is no longer being pursued. I am also beginning to realize that a lot of people on here really don't half of what's going on, and most comments are based on rumors, opinions, and speculation.

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## bombermwc

Well derr....

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## dankrutka

> I honestly think there is still a possibility for a new tower soon. No one has officially announced that there will or will not be building a new tower, until that happens, I think there is still a possibility. Everything is still pure speculation until someone announces something either way. You would think that if Beffort announced there will be a new headquarters, he would announce that that project is no longer being pursued. I am also beginning to realize that a lot of people on here really don't half of what's going on, and most comments are based on rumors, opinions, and speculation.


And here goes G.Walker again. Why on earth would a company announce that they are NOT building a tower? You have to be kidding.

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## 1972ford

I'm surprised Boral industries has yet to relocate their american headquarters in OKC yet as most of their US operations are in OKC and surrounding areas.  Maybe this is something city leaders could look into and entice them to their US HQ in OKC.

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## G.Walker

> And here goes G.Walker again. Why on earth would a company announce that they are NOT building a tower? You have to be kidding.


Whatever, I take most of what you say with a grain of salt...I can say what I want...

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## GaryOKC6

> I'm surprised Boral industries has yet to relocate their american headquarters in OKC yet as most of their US operations are in OKC and surrounding areas.  Maybe this is something city leaders could look into and entice them to their US HQ in OKC.


That would be a good fit.  They have offices in Yukon at the former Schwarz Ready Mix location.  they bought it about 4 years ago.  They mostly run their sales out of there.

----------


## 1972ford

They also have a brick manufacturing plant in Union city and I think one or 2 more companies that are subsidiaries of Boral I think they recently aquired a sand plant somewhere in the state and possibly a rock plant(if the deal went through) in Davis.

----------


## 1972ford

Now that I think about it Bricktown would be would be a good spot for a US HQ for Boral being that they have that brick plant in Union City they probably make a killing on bricktown projects anyway it would be a good way to capture more of the sales as well

----------


## SharkSandwich

Guys:  This is just a rumor, but I'm hearing things from unrelated people that are starting to match up and make me believe there is a little bit of smoke.  The gist is this: Devon is planning significant company expansion in the next several years (could be through gradual hiring or acquisition of another company).  The new tower is filling up fast, but not unexpectedly.  Devon is behind several of the Preftakes purchases on the block to the west.  Devon plans to tear down several buildings on that block to make way for a medical clinic and, as much as I cannot believe it, another tower.  

I don't know if this is true, but like I said I have now heard similar bits and pieces from several unrelated sources that are not urban speculators or rumor-mongers.  I don't know about a timeline.  I know this scenario has been brought up before in this thread.  In fact, I believe I said it was highly unlikely.  In any event, I just thought I'd share the info.

----------


## Teo9969

I think it's reasonable to assume that there are plans for several new towers...we just need to be patient about timelines and expectations. This thread has been more about spreading rumors of a 2012 announcement than actual towers. I think we all still expect Towers to go on the Preftakes block and on the NE side of the CBD...the question is when...and it only makes sense for companies to wait and see what is going to happen with the economy /election ... It would be more reasonable to expect 3 to 6 new 10+ story structures to be under construction by 2020. Than one announced by the end of the year.

----------


## dankrutka

You say that this thread is all about rumors, and then you go on to randomly guess that a bunch of new towers will be built in a specific place by a specific time without any evidence. I guess your point is to make up rumors that go beyond this year as opposed to the rumors for just this year?

----------


## catch22

> You say that this thread is all about rumors, and then you go on to randomly guess that a bunch of new towers will be built in a specific place by a specific time without any evidence. I guess your point is to make up rumors that go beyond this year as opposed to the rumors for just this year?


His post was speculation. A rumor would be, I have heard that a company is looking to build 8 new towers by 2020. Speculation is: I bet we see the development of...by....

----------


## Pete

> Guys:  This is just a rumor, but I'm hearing things from unrelated people that are starting to match up and make me believe there is a little bit of smoke.  The gist is this: Devon is planning significant company expansion in the next several years (could be through gradual hiring or acquisition of another company).  The new tower is filling up fast, but not unexpectedly.  Devon is behind several of the Preftakes purchases on the block to the west.  Devon plans to tear down several buildings on that block to make way for a medical clinic and, as much as I cannot believe it, another tower.


I've heard this too but have also heard Devon is interested in Oklahoma Tower if their long-term needs require more office space.  The two buildings are now joined through a pedestrian walkway on the 3rd level of the City Center East parking garage AND O.T. has been up for sale (asking a lot of money, but would sell if they could get it) so you could easily see that scenario as well.

We know from the current Devon Tower project that it takes about 3 years to get a new downtown building open for business once you decide to move forward; and that's with an aggressive round-the-clock schedule.

But also remember that Devon scaled back their tower plans by five floors after looking at their long-term needs, and we know there is considerable empty space in their current tower.  Of course, something may have changed since then or is about to change; i.e. faster growth than had been anticipated and/or an acquisition.


I do believe Devon/Nichols is behind Preftakes and started backing his purchases without a clear idea of their plans; just that's it's a great, underutilized block right next to their new corporate HQ.  I could see them doing another tower plus residential and a parking structure.  But that may be 10 years down the road.

----------


## Spartan

Yeah, I've heard a decent amount of stuff will be preserved after all, but the thing that concerns me about Devon is that I've heard they have no interest at all in workforce housing.

----------


## kevinpate

Pete, wasn't the scale back of Devon tower not so much a scale back as it was a strategic separation.  IIRC, those floors were still built, but they were built out near(ish) the airport as an off-site data center.

----------


## Larry OKC

Read that part of the "scaling back" was the configuration of office space on the remaining floors

----------


## Pete

> Pete, wasn't the scale back of Devon tower not so much a scale back as it was a strategic separation.  IIRC, those floors were still built, but they were built out near(ish) the airport as an off-site data center.


Partly, yes.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

The river taxi in the Bricktown canals told everybody that OKC would not allow Devon to build 65 stories because safety issues with the "Oklahoma" wind. Now I thought to myself that is crazy because Dallas is pretty much the same climate as we are and they have a Bank of America building which is 70 stories. So is this true?

----------


## kevinpate

When it comes to riverboat tales, might be best to treat most of it as harmless misinfotainment.

----------


## CaptDave

Too bad all the talk and speculation has died down. It was fun to imagine the possibilities - both realistic and not. I hope some news is forthcoming soon and we will have another "Devon - like" project to watch.

----------


## Pete

> The river taxi in the Bricktown canals told everybody that OKC would not allow Devon to build 65 stories because safety issues with the "Oklahoma" wind. Now I thought to myself that is crazy because Dallas is pretty much the same climate as we are and they have a Bank of America building which is 70 stories. So is this true?


No.

Devon Tower is almost exactly the same height as the tallest building in Dallas (BofA Tower) even though it's only 50 floors.

Lots of cities with high winds and bad weather (like Chicago) have buildings much higher.  Even here in California earthquake country there are a bunch of buildings taller than Devon.


Modern engineering can conquer pretty much anything.

----------


## G.Walker

> Too bad all the talk and speculation has died down. It was fun to imagine the possibilities - both realistic and not. I hope some news is forthcoming soon and we will have another "Devon - like" project to watch.


I really don't think anybody knows anything solid at this point. It seems we have made no progress, and are right back where we started with this thread 6 months ago.

----------


## ljbab728

> No.
> 
> Devon Tower is almost exactly the same height as the tallest building in Dallas (BofA Tower) even though it's only 50 floors.
> 
> Lots of cities with high winds and bad weather (like Chicago) have buildings much higher.  Even here in California earthquake country there are a bunch of buildings taller than Devon.
> 
> 
> Modern engineering can conquer pretty much anything.


I'm not trying to be argumentitive, Pete, because I agree with your points.  California, however, has only three buildings taller than Devon.  Two are in LA and one in San Francisco.  Two of those are only a couple of feet taller.

----------


## Urbanized

> The river taxi in the Bricktown canals told everybody that OKC would not allow Devon to build 65 stories because safety issues with the "Oklahoma" wind. Now I thought to myself that is crazy because Dallas is pretty much the same climate as we are and they have a Bank of America building which is 70 stories. So is this true?


Good grief. Not true. Thanks for the heads-up.

----------


## Urbanized

> When it comes to riverboat tales, might be best to treat most of it as harmless misinfotainment.


Geez, I hope not. We provide them with 60 pages of thoroughly-vetted and regularly-updated material that has been at various times reviewed by people from the Oklahoma Historical Society, Downtown OKC Inc., The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce, and the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau. We heavily stress the importance of accuracy and positivity in tours, and in fact do everything we can to make it a condition of employment. If you ever ride on a boat with inaccurate info, I would appreciate a PM with the name of the captain so that I can take corrective measures with them.

----------


## Pete

> Geez, I hope not. We provide them with 60 pages of thoroughly-vetted and regularly-updated material that has been at various times reviewed by people from the Oklahoma Historical Society, Downtown OKC Inc., The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce, and the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau. We heavily stress the importance of accuracy and positivity in tours, and in fact do everything we can to make it a condition of employment. If you ever ride on a boat with inaccurate info, I would appreciate a PM with the name of the captain so that I can take corrective measures with them.


Wow, had no idea you guys were so thorough!

Credit to you for wanting to share as much good information on OKC as possible.

----------


## OSUPeterson

> Geez, I hope not. We provide them with 60 pages of thoroughly-vetted and regularly-updated material that has been at various times reviewed by people from the Oklahoma Historical Society, Downtown OKC Inc., The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce, and the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau. We heavily stress the importance of accuracy and positivity in tours, and in fact do everything we can to make it a condition of employment. If you ever ride on a boat with inaccurate info, I would appreciate a PM with the name of the captain so that I can take corrective measures with them.


This just completely changed my opinion of the river boats. May need to get down and ride one sometime soon now.

----------


## ljbab728

> This just completely changed my opinion of the river boats. May need to get down and ride one sometime soon now.


OSU, I think he's talking about the canal boats instead of the river boats, but try both of them.  I think you'll enjoy it.

----------


## SharkSandwich

Well, it looks like it won't be CNOOC building their headquarters here.


Nexen backing $15-billion takeover bid by China
 Calgary to become North American headquarters for CNOOC
 By Dina O'Meara, Calgary Herald July 23, 2012 12:01 PM  

CALGARY — Nexen Inc. has agreed to a friendly $15-billion takeover bid by China’s largest offshore oil producer in a deal which will see Calgary become the site of one of CNOOC’s international headquarters.

The oil and gas producer’s board, which last year mulled over selling the company, threw their unanimous support behind the deal which see CNOOC increase investments in Nexen’s existing Canadian and international assets.

The bulk of Nexen’s oil and gas production comes from North Sea operations in the United Kingdom.

The Calgary-based company has been struggling with disappointing results from its oilsands project at Long Lake and last week announced a $120-million hit on second quarter earnings on a dry well in the U.S. Gulf of Mexico.

The transaction, if approved by Canada’s investment and competition bureaus, will see China pay 61 per cent premium on Nexen’s closing share price Friday in New York, $27.50 US per share.

“As one of the largest oil and gas companies in the world, they have the balance sheet and the resources to help move our projects forward at a faster pace than we might have been able to do independently,” said Kevin Reinhart, Nexen’s interim chief executive, in a conference call Monday morning. “This transaction will enable us to accelerate our growth by leveraging CNOOC Limited’s considerable financial resources, global network and operational expertise.”

The transaction also will establish Calgary as one of CNOOC’s global headquarters, Reinhart said.

“From here, we will continue to manage Nexen’s global operations, plus their existing operations for North and Central America. This will result in a contribution of approximately $8 billion worth of their existing assets.”

Although CNOOC president Li Fanrong said he intends to keep Nexen’s management team and staff, Reinhart declined commenting on his future with the new company.

The two producers were not strangers, as Nexen’s original partner at Long Lake, Opti Canada, filed for court protection from creditors last summer and was later acquired by CNOOC for $2.1 billion.

The Chinese company has made several other investments in Canadian companies over the past seven years, including buying stakes in MEG Energy Inc. and a 60-per cent investment in Northern Cross (Yukon) Ltd.

The state-owed company was attracted to Nexen’s production base in some of the world’s most significant plays, including oilsands and offshore North Sea, U.S. Gulf of Mexico and West Africa, said Fanrong.

Federal Minister of Industry Christian Paradis confirmed Monday the proposed Chinese takeover would be scrutinized by Ottawa under the Investment Canada Act and by the Competition Bureau.

Under the act, Pardis will review if the takeover will benefit or not Canada on an industrial, employment and competitive level.

“Where an investment is subject to review under the act, my approval is required prior to implementation,” Pardis said in a statement. “I approve applications where I am satisfied that a proposed investment is likely to be of net benefit to Canada.”

Analysts suggested given Nexen’s relatively small Canadian asset base — in British Columbia’s Horn River shale gas play, and its oilsands operations — foreign ownership rules likely would not be an issue.

Nexen has faced numerous challenges over the past few years, most recently the troubled launch of its Long Lake oilsands project in northern Alberta. The project has yet to come close to its design capacity of 72,000 barrels of bitumen per day due to a number of operational glitches.

Last week, the company reported that second-quarter profits tumbled more than 50 per cent as it took a charge on an unsuccessful well in the Gulf of Mexico.

Nexen’s net income was $109 million, or 20 cents per share, missing analyst estimates by seven cents. The results were also down from $252 million, or 48 cents per share, a year earlier.

In January, Nexen announced a major management shakeup, with Marvin Romanow leaving his post as CEO and Gary Nieuwenburg stepping down as the executive vice-president of the company’s Canadian operations.

Reinhart was previously the company’s chief financial officer.


With files from Canadian Press


Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...#ixzz21TK6fc1S

----------


## Pete

Just to throw a rumor out there...

Rick Dowell has recently told people he may build a 30-story residential structure at 5th & Walker.

That he hoped to build something there is not news, but I don't think anyone believed it would be on this scale.


Of course, he moves very methodically (being kind here) and he likes to self-finance, so none of us may live to see it happen.

----------


## Just the facts

I would think an invenstment of that size might want to wait until the streetcar route is finalized.

----------


## SharkSandwich

> Just to throw a rumor out there...
> 
> Rick Dowell has recently told people he may build a 30-story residential structure at 5th & Walker.
> 
> That he hoped to build something there is not news, but I don't think anyone believed it would be on this scale.
> 
> 
> Of course, he moves very methodically (being kind here) and he likes to self-finance, so none of us may live to see it happen.


Rick told me the very same thing about six years ago.  I'm not going to hold my breath... (first let's see if he can get the Dowell Center (old Journal Record building) up and going in the next decade or so)

----------


## TaurusNYC



----------


## Steve

> The river taxi in the Bricktown canals told everybody that OKC would not allow Devon to build 65 stories because safety issues with the "Oklahoma" wind. Now I thought to myself that is crazy because Dallas is pretty much the same climate as we are and they have a Bank of America building which is 70 stories. So is this true?


Someone alert Urbanized ... this is not true. Just more water taxi noise....

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> 


Austin?

----------


## TaurusNYC

It is a new building in San Francisco.  I like it because it is one of the few new tall buildings that doesnt have a glass curtain wall.  It reminds me of a cool update of the Sandridge building in OKC and I think it could look cool as a companion to it.

----------


## TaurusNYC



----------


## BoulderSooner

> I would think an invenstment of that size might want to wait until the streetcar route is finalized.


street car route is basically finalized

----------


## Just the facts

> street car route is basically finalized


All I am saying is if you are plopping down $35 million 'basically' might not be good enough.  To my knowledge they still haven't done the engineering assesment so we don't know where it is going yet.  Missing by even a block will make a big difference.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> All I am saying is if you are plopping down $35 million 'basically' might not be good enough.  To my knowledge they still haven't done the engineering assesment so we don't know where it is going yet.  Missing by even a block will make a big difference.


either way the odds that it goes down walker are slim and none

----------


## Urbanized

> Someone alert Urbanized ... this is not true. Just more water taxi noise....


Uh...did you read further into the thread?

----------


## MDot

> It is a new building in San Francisco.  I like it because it is one of the few new tall buildings that doesnt have a glass curtain wall.  It reminds me of a cool update of the Sandridge building in OKC and I think it could look cool as a companion to it.


While that's a cool building, I would rather see a building like the BofA Corporate Center in Charlotte if it's anything other than glass built in OKC.

----------


## Just the facts

BofA building as viewed from the sidewalk.

[IMG][/IMG]

----------


## Bellaboo

One lonely security guard..........and this place is considered as a boom town....?


Maybe this was Sunday morning about 7:00 am.

----------


## Just the facts

> Maybe this was Sunday morning about 7:00 am.


If you go to Google Earth street view you can see for yourself.  Tons of people on the streets around this area - there just isn't any reason for them to go to the BofA building since there is nothing there for them.  The blank wall even discourages pedestrians from using that side of the street to go other place.  BofA is one of those building that looks better from 10 miles away than it does from 10' away.

----------


## MDot

Figured you would do that, but as others have explained to you before, when we mention a building that we think would be cool to have in OKC, we don't mean the foot traffic of the building as well, just the building itself with a cafe, coffee shop, barber shop or whatever you can imagine. Everybody here (I think/hope) wants Oklahoma City to have foot traffic downtown, so just imagine that same picture of the BofA Corporate Center with hundreds of people walking in front of it as well as street level interactions within the building itself.

Thanks for the picture, BTW. I've always wondered how it looked at street level but have never been to Charlotte or thought to use Google Earth street view.

----------


## Urbanized

I like how instead of simple bollards they use benches, bike racks and trees to keep a secure perimeter around the building. Looks completely natural and you'd have to think about it for a minute to realize they are actually there for security. Really nicely-executed pedestrian-scale sidewalk presence for a skyscraper. Someone was obviously placing high priority on the sidewalk environment.

----------


## MDot

> I like how instead of simple bollards they use benches, bike racks and trees to keep a secure perimeter around the building. Looks completely natural and you'd have to think about it for a minute to realize they are actually there for security. Really nicely-executed pedestrian-scale sidewalk presence for a skyscraper. Someone was obviously placing high priority on the sidewalk environment.


I thought it seemed pretty peaceful just from a quick glance and then I went back and looked at it harder and made the same observations you did.

----------


## Just the facts

> Figured you would do that, but as others have explained to you before, when we mention a building that we think would be cool to have in OKC, we don't mean the foot traffic of the building as well, just the building itself with a cafe, coffee shop, barber shop or whatever you can imagine. Everybody here (I think/hope) wants Oklahoma City to have foot traffic downtown, so just imagine that same picture of the BofA Corporate Center with hundreds of people walking in front of it as well as street level interactions within the building itself.
> 
> Thanks for the picture, BTW. I've always wondered how it looked at street level but have never been to Charlotte or thought to use Google Earth street view.


I would like to think everyone wants foot traffic as well which is why I pause every time someone says it would be cool to have (pick a building) in OKC, when that building does nothing to support or encourage ANY foot traffic.  As Urbanized pointed out they spent a lot of time on the sidewalk, but then didn't make a single reason for anyone to use the sidewalk.  Meanwhile, right across the street are retails stores, restaurants, etc.. with lots of people walking (and even sitting on the exact same benches you see empty in front of BofA).  I would rather have the 10 story building across the street.

----------


## MDot

> I would like to think everyone wants foot traffic as well which is why I pause every time someone says it wold be cool to have (pick a building) in OKC, when that building does nothing to support or encourage ANY foot traffic.  As Urbanized pointed out they spent a lot of time on the sidewalk, but then didn't make single reason for anyone to use the sidewalk.  Meanwhile, right across the street are retails stores, restaurnats, etc.. with lots of people walking (and even sitting on the exact same benches you see empty in front of BofA).


We're on the same page then. I meant the building as a design, not including the street level interaction. I know that sounds shallow but I'm generalizing when I talk about buildings I'd like to plop into OKC. Overall, my dream is that every building OKC has -- and will have -- could implement well executed street level interactions (I'm dreaming, I know).

----------


## Just the facts

> We're on the same page then. I meant the building as a design, not including the street level interaction. I know that sounds shallow but I'm generalizing when I talk about buildings I'd like to plop into OKC. Overall, my dream is that every building OKC has -- and will have -- could implement well executed street level interactions (I'm dreaming, I know).


I know what you are saying.  Somewhere out there are buildings that are tall, have stylish architecture, AND provide a quality street life.  To be honest though, 'tall' is way down on my list of features.

----------


## Spartan

> I like how instead of simple bollards they use benches, bike racks and trees to keep a secure perimeter around the building. Looks completely natural and you'd have to think about it for a minute to realize they are actually there for security. Really nicely-executed pedestrian-scale sidewalk presence for a skyscraper. Someone was obviously placing high priority on the sidewalk environment.


I was about to say. I'm not sure Kerry wants to use this as an example for another one of his points..

Not every corporate skyscraper can or will be mixed-use.

----------


## G.Walker

I would like to see new skyscrapers with residential components in the area. Some type of corporate housing for employees.

----------


## G.Walker

According to Steve, via his live chat today, he is still seeing evidence that this project is still moving forward, with a mixed-use tower thrown in the mix...good deal...with an announcement this next year or so, whatever that means, lol:

_10:31 Comment From Joe  

We have a couple new high rises expected to be built within the next several years: the convention center hotel and Sandridge's new tower. What are the true chances we add a couple more to that list?

10:34 Steve Lackmeyer: 

I am sticking with what I wrote in a column earlier this year: we are likely to see an announcement of another office or mixed-use tower downtown sometime this next year or so. I am seeing and hearing too much related to such a development to think otherwise. Add in the already announced intention by Sandridge Energy that it will build an office tower at Broadway and Robert S. Kerr and the city's determination to include a new conference hotel with the convention center and we are likely to see an ongoing transformation of the downtown Oklahoma City skyline._ 

_10:47 Comment From Dave: 

Any news on the mystery tower or new international company headquarters. I believe that article came out in February and we were supposed to know something within six months.

10:48 Steve Lackmeyer: 

Dave, I commented earlier in this chat about the tower. I have no new news to report other than I am continuing to see evidence this "mystery" project is continuing to move forward...._

----------


## jedicurt

I have a contact whom i would say is very credible for being in the know of this specific situation, that MidFirst is still looking at the UPUBCO owned land just south of 4th st between EK Gaylord and the railroad tracks for a new corporate office.  

They said that things kinda calmed down a bit after some of the issues with Chesapeake and with American Fidelity buying the UPUBCO Tower, but that more chatter has been happening about this still possibly going through

----------


## Pete

We know that MidFirst made an offer on the OPUBCO tower and surrounding property so that clearly indicates 1) the are looking to move/expand and 2) they have been talking with the OPUBCO people.

I wish Chesapeake would hurry up and buy their buildings for their usual outlandish prices so MidFirst can spend that money elsewhere.

I'm just worried the CHK gravy train has already come to a halt (which is probably a good thing when you take the bigger view).

----------


## G.Walker

I wonder if MidFirst was looking at the 4th/Gaylord site, but now that the Stage Center site is available, they switched gears...It would be nice if we get a high rise residential on the Stage Center site, and a high rise commercial on the OPUBCO site...but MidFirst may be pushing hard for the Stage Center site...More questions, I wonder who is behind the mixed-use tower? Hall/Howard?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I wonder if MidFirst was looking at the 4th/Gaylord site, but now that the Stage Center site is available, they switched gears...It would be nice if we get a high rise residential on the Stage Center site, and a high rise commercial on the OPUBCO site...but MidFirst may be pushing hard for the Stage Center site...More questions, I wonder who is behind the mixed-use tower? Hall/Howard?


also of note is that a bank may be much more willing to include "spec" space in any tower that they choose to build

----------


## jedicurt

> We know that MidFirst made an offer on the OPUBCO tower and surrounding property so that clearly indicates 1) the are looking to move/expand and 2) they have been talking with the OPUBCO people.
> 
> I wish Chesapeake would hurry up and buy their buildings for their usual outlandish prices so MidFirst can spend that money elsewhere.
> 
> I'm just worried the CHK gravy train has already come to a halt (which is probably a good thing when you take the bigger view).



apparently MidFirst was looking at the 4th street land when UPUBCO just kinda mentioned that they tower and surround property could also be an option, and so they stopped talking about the downtown site and looked at the tower then, and then of course as we know AF came in and went over midfirst in a bid... 

but like i was saying, it sounds like the chatter for the 4th street site is back again.  I am of the same hope that G.Walker is that perhaps Midfirst does build on the 4th street site and then we get a completely different high rise development on the Stage Center site.   add in the CC hotel and the new sandridge tower, and the completely look of the OKC skyline could be changed again in just a few years

----------


## HangryHippo

Count me among fans of MidFirst building on the 4th ST site as well.

----------


## lasomeday

A tower on 4th and Gaylord would really expand the skyline to the northwest!  Hopefully a 700+ foot tower. 

So, Sandridge, Midfirst, Convention Center, Mixed Use, and then hopefully in 2-3 years Continental will be ready for a massive tower.  Their growth is still staggering and could fill a massive tower in 5 years.  Then in 3-4 years I see Devon needing more room as well possibly building a tower again in 5 years.

Then rumors of a new company and possibly OG&E building a new tower and putting all their people in one building downtown would be awesome!  They could sell their building to another growing company.  They could use a modern building and one up OneOK in Tulsa with a tower 100'+ taller than OneOK.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Sorry if this article has been posted elsewhere on OKC Talk. 

http://newsok.com/steve-lackmeyer-do...rticle/3697833

----------


## Spartan

I have been hearing the OG+E rumors pop up here and there. I tend to think somebody is blowing smoke. I talked to Pete and Steve about the rumor a few months ago when I first overheard it, and the insider consensus (which I _don't_ consider myself part of in case anyone thinks I'm blowing smoke) is that it's just a cool rumor. 

It makes a lot of sense for OG+E to consolidate, but keep in mind what they'd be moving up from... metal buildings on S. High Street.




> Count me among *fans* of MidFirst building on the 4th ST site as well.


Absolutely, but I just have to ask: Are there opponents?  :Tongue:

----------


## HangryHippo

> Absolutely, but I just have to ask: Are there opponents?


God only knows, but in this town, I wouldn't be surprised to hear of some.

----------


## adaniel

4th and Gaylord? That's an odd (and rather small) triangular shaped plot of land. If someone can make it work, more power to them.

Isn't this the same piece of land the Chamber of Commerce wanted its HQ at?

----------


## dankrutka

> A tower on 4th and Gaylord would really expand the skyline to the northwest!  Hopefully a 700+ foot tower. 
> 
> So, Sandridge, Midfirst, Convention Center, Mixed Use, and then hopefully in 2-3 years Continental will be ready for a massive tower.  Their growth is still staggering and could fill a massive tower in 5 years.  Then in 3-4 years I see Devon needing more room as well possibly building a tower again in 5 years.
> 
> Then rumors of a new company and possibly OG&E building a new tower and putting all their people in one building downtown would be awesome!  They could sell their building to another growing company.  They could use a modern building and one up OneOK in Tulsa with a tower 100'+ taller than OneOK.


Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard. This is exactly what the thread was like 6 months ago... And nothing happened. It's great to think about possibilities, but let's just slow down a little.

----------


## MDot

> Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard. This is exactly what the thread was like 6 months ago... And nothing happened. It's great to think about possibilities, but let's just slow down a little.


Agreed. Nothing against enthusiasm, but let's not get over-enthusiastic yet.

----------


## metro

> apparently MidFirst was looking at the 4th street land when UPUBCO just kinda mentioned that they tower and surround property could also be an option, and so they stopped talking about the downtown site and looked at the tower then, and then of course as we know AF came in and went over midfirst in a bid... 
> 
> but like i was saying, it sounds like the chatter for the 4th street site is back again.  I am of the same hope that G.Walker is that perhaps Midfirst does build on the 4th street site and then we get a completely different high rise development on the Stage Center site.   add in the CC hotel and the new sandridge tower, and the completely look of the OKC skyline could be changed again in just a few years


Why do you keep referring to them as UPUBCO?

----------


## metro

> A tower on 4th and Gaylord would really expand the skyline to the northwest!.


northEAST

----------


## metro

> I have been hearing the OG+E rumors pop up here and there. I tend to think somebody is blowing smoke. I talked to Pete and Steve about the rumor a few months ago when I first overheard it, and the insider consensus (which I _don't_ consider myself part of in case anyone thinks I'm blowing smoke) is that it's just a cool rumor. 
> 
> It makes a lot of sense for OG+E to consolidate, but keep in mind what they'd be moving up from... metal buildings on S. High Street.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely, but I just have to ask: Are there opponents?


I noticed within the last few weeks that the OG&E signage came off the two multi-story office buildings at I-44 and Lincoln.

----------


## lasomeday

> I noticed within the last few weeks that the OG&E signage came off the two multi-story office buildings at I-44 and Lincoln.


Northeast....whatever...everyone knew what I meant.

Its been a year since the announcement of OG&E leaving that building and moving Enogex to Leadership Square.  We have talked about them redoing floors in the Leadership Square building on here.  We also talked about Chesapeake buying those two buildings.  Chesapeake will be selling/leasing those buildings to the new company that bought their Midstream assets and that is where they will be headquartered.  I don't know if anyone knew the last one.

----------


## G.Walker

I think what happened was that speculation about this project started way too early given comments by Beffort and Steve in February. Beffort stated we will know this year, and Steve's latest article, 7 months later, is just a repeat of what he has been saying for a while. But his latest comments about a new tower seem a little more solid now versus 7 months ago. We still have a lot time left in 2012, but it seems like this will actually come to fruition.

----------


## Pete

Several key things changed since all the serious speculation started: 1) the OPUBCO properties became available and American Fidelity jumped on the opportunity; 2) it started to look like the Stage Center property would be available and now it is; and 3) the changes at Chesapeake mean it's unlikely they are going to be paying an obscene sum to MidFirst for their properties.

So, this took one big player (AF) completely out of the downtown development derby, has perhaps slowed the plans of another (MidFirst), and also created an situation where others probably wanted to take a wait-and-see attitude.

----------


## Teo9969

> 4th and Gaylord? That's an odd *(and rather small)* triangular shaped plot of land. If someone can make it work, more power to them.
> 
> Isn't this the same piece of land the Chamber of Commerce wanted its HQ at?


Look at Google Maps...It's bigger than you think. You could fit Devon Tower, Podium and Rotunda on that plot if you reorganized the three pieces. Towers by themselves take up such a small amount of land, which is the whole point of going vertical.

----------


## soonerguru

> Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard. This is exactly what the thread was like 6 months ago... And nothing happened. It's great to think about possibilities, but let's just slow down a little.


LOL. True.

----------


## soonerguru

> Why do you keep referring to them as UPUBCO?


Unscrupulous Publishing Company?

----------


## Spartan

> Unscrupulous Publishing Company?


Guru FTW

----------


## jedicurt

> Why do you keep referring to them as UPUBCO?


apparently, i don't double check when i type... i hadn't even noticed i was doing that... OPUBCO... sorry

----------


## Spartan

I like UPUBCO..I'm gonna use that now

----------


## metro

> apparently, i don't double check when i type... i hadn't even noticed i was doing that... OPUBCO... sorry


I was just curious as you were doing it on multiple posts in multiple threads. Thought you were implying something.

----------


## Spartan

Metro, it's officially UPUBCO now, the publishing company formerly known as OPUBCO.. now more honestly-named

----------


## metro

Is that what you call it in Canada eh?

----------


## Spartan

Huh?

----------


## soonerguru

metro is back! Your snarky comments have been missed (even though I often disagree). You've been very quiet. Where ya been, bro?

----------


## Skyline

Funny how the "Mystery Tower" speculation is now become "Mystery Towers". Like solving one mystery wasn't enough fun for us.

----------


## G.Walker

> Funny how the "Mystery Tower" speculation is now become "Mystery Towers". Like solving one mystery wasn't enough fun for us.


Yes, recent comments by Steve state this mystery tower is still moving forward, now whether its an office tower or residential tower, or maybe both, have not been confirmed. I am sure we will know something either way, within the next few months. And to wonder where it will be located, one will just have to look to the Stage Center site.

----------


## dankrutka

There's a difference between Steve stating that "this mystery tower is moving forward," and Steve saying that he sees some evidence that it could possibly happen in the future... but, as always, you have solidified the information in your own mind, thus confusing people and making them overly optimistic about what we really know.  

What is so hard for you to just wait for solid information before running with it? You've done it repeatedly on this thread. Just sllllloooooooowwwwww dooooooooowwwwwwnnnnnn.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> And to wonder where it will be located, one will just have to look to the Stage Center site.


Or the grass site next to the railroad viaduct on EK Gaylord.

----------


## G.Walker

> There's a difference between Steve stating that "this mystery tower is moving forward," and Steve saying that he sees some evidence that it could possibly happen in the future... but, as always, you have solidified the information in your own mind, thus confusing people and making them overly optimistic about what we really know.  
> 
> What is so hard for you to just wait for solid information before running with it? You've done it repeatedly on this thread. Just sllllloooooooowwwwww dooooooooowwwwwwnnnnnn.


First of all, I can say what I want, and if I want to comment on this thread everyday, I can, and you can control it. Second of all, you didn't read his full transcript:

10:47 Comment From Dave:

Any news on the mystery tower or new international company headquarters. I believe that article came out in February and we were supposed to know something within six months.

10:48 Steve Lackmeyer:

Dave, I commented earlier in this chat about the tower. I have no new news to report other than I am continuing to see evidence *this "mystery" project is continuing to move forward....*

so how is that confusing people KilgoreTrout? I just simply repeated what he said...

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Walker, if you could step in anyone's shoes tomorrow I already know who it would be....Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve. LOL

----------


## G.Walker

Actually no, Mark Beffort, lol...he knows more than Steve...lol...

----------


## Steve

Heck, I'd love to step in Mark Beffort shoes myself....

----------


## ljbab728

This certainly doesn't hurt the prospects for a future office tower.

http://newsok.com/office-space-is-ge...rticle/3699962

----------


## MDot

> This certainly doesn't hurt the prospects for a future office tower.
> 
> http://newsok.com/office-space-is-ge...rticle/3699962


I saw this earlier and was thinking this thread would be the place to put it; I was also thinking what you said. Great minds think alike, I suppose (or it's just that obvious to put together). :-)

----------


## G.Walker

This recent report is good news also:

http://www.levybeffort.com/Websites/...nds_report.pdf

----------


## Pete

Yes, interestingly, there is absolutely no for-lease office space under construction anywhere in the City.

----------


## G.Walker

And, there is roughly only 200,000SF of available Class A space in all of Oklahoma City. It would nice to see a spec tower go up, but developers just don't do spec anymore these days, especially on a large scale. What company in Oklahoma City has the capital to build spec, and take that chance? The only company I can see capable of pulling it off would be Chesapeake Land Development Company.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

^^you just killed your own thread^^

----------


## G.Walker

Then who could pull it off?

----------


## lasomeday

> And, there is roughly only 200,000SF of available Class A space in all of Oklahoma City. It would nice to see a spec tower go up, but developers just don't do spec anymore these days, especially on a large scale. What company in Oklahoma City has the capital to build spec, and take that chance? The only company I can see capable of pulling it off would be Chesapeake Land Development Company.


There are more than just Chesapeake out there.  Midfirst could do it.  Should do it......

----------


## metro

> metro is back! Your snarky comments have been missed (even though I often disagree). You've been very quiet. Where ya been, bro?


Been too busy with my kid and career.

----------


## Spartan

It's not just OKC where developers don't do spec anymore. Spec is a dying breed world-wide, even internationally except for a few places where development gets significant government backing (like Russia, Norway, UAE, etc). Even places right next to those locales, like Sweden, Netherlands, Baltics, Israel, etc (more moderate free market economies) have seen spec office construction fall off a cliff. In the U.S., skyscrapers are being built for corporate tenants (build-to-suit) or hotel, mixed-use, or residential. 




> metro is back! Your snarky comments have been missed (even though I often disagree). You've been very quiet. Where ya been, bro?


You mean his personal vendettas against myself, Steve, and others - and his jabs that make no sense whatsoever. "in Canada eh?" No, he just missed that OPUBCO has been officially renamed UPUBCO, on just the other page. I have no idea what that has to do with Canada and "eh?" which most Canadians don't actually use (we don't all say "y'all")

----------


## Pete

Spec died in the financial crisis.  Developers can't get spec buildings built, so unless you have a big tenant in tow -- and even then -- it's darn hard.

Look at how good the economy has been in OKC and how tight the office market is, and there isn't one single office building under construction outside those being built by companies for their own use (Devon, CHK, SandRidge, Paycom, etc.).

In fact I can't even think of when the last "for lease" office building was built in OKC.  It's been a loooong time.

----------


## adaniel

> Spec died in the financial crisis.  Developers can't get spec buildings built, so unless you have a big tenant in tow -- and even then -- it's darn hard.
> 
> Look at how good the economy has been in OKC and how tight the office market is, and there isn't one single office building under construction outside those being built by companies for their own use (Devon, CHK, SandRidge, Paycom, etc.).
> 
> In fact I can't even think of when the last "for lease" office building was built in OKC.  It's been a loooong time.


Back in the good ole' days pre 2008 you usually saw spec construction when vacancy was around 10-15%.

As of May, Class A Vacancy downtown is 9.9% and about 11% in the suburbs.

There has even been a noticeable slowdown of construction in those hideous "garden office" projects that were so popular in this area last decade.

----------


## Spartan

> Spec died in the financial crisis.  Developers can't get spec buildings built, so unless you have a big tenant in tow -- and even then -- it's darn hard.
> 
> Look at how good the economy has been in OKC and how tight the office market is, and there isn't one single office building under construction outside those being built by companies for their own use (Devon, CHK, SandRidge, Paycom, etc.).
> 
> In fact I can't even think of when the last "for lease" office building was built in OKC.  It's been a loooong time.


Vince Carrozza.

----------


## Pete

Just a fun rumor from today's on-line chat with Steve Lackmeyer...




> I heard this from a family member who is in construction. Devon is seeking bids for another tower, and Oneok doing to same, for a potential move from T-town. 
> 
> Read more: http://newsok.com/unedited-transcrip...#ixzz23pkEhZgz

----------


## adaniel

^
I've heard that ONEOK was looking to establish an office here, but it was something along the lines of a satellite office, probably fewer than 50 employees. Keep in mind I heard this in 2010.

That would be awesome if they moved down here, but I won't hold my breath. ONEOK is very committed to Tulsa, and it seems to go deeper than the lip service most companies pay to their communities. If they should decide to leave, I'm sure Tulsa would throw them gobs of incentive money to stay. Plus, I could only imagine the political meltdown that would happen among the cities and in the state ("OKC is STEALING our companies!!")

The Devon thing seems far more likely. My co. works a lot with Devon. I can tell you they are filling up their tower very fast, and their plans to lease other office space in other downtown buildings when the need arises is being stymied by the high amount of leasing activity by other companies.

----------


## Pete

ONEOK is the size of Devon, and I agree that it's highly unlikely they would just up and leave Tulsa.

However, I hope they are looking at a significant OKC presence in what is emerging as a great concentration of energy companies, especially if SandRidge and Continental continue on their current projectories.

Perhaps they would partner with Devon to take part of a new tower??

----------


## G.Walker

If anything, ONEOK would build a new skyscraper in Tulsa, before OKC. Tulsa is due for a new skyscraper, and ONEOK could pull it off...

----------


## CurtisJ

> If anything, ONEOK would build a new skyscraper in Tulsa, before OKC. Tulsa is due for a new skyscraper, and ONEOK could pull it off...


The ONEOK building in Tulsa was designed to be much taller than it is, it was scaled back at the last minute due to a rough patch.  I would imagine that if they were wanting to expand, they might just pick up where they left off and add a dozen more floors to the current building.

----------


## lasomeday

I could see Devon announcing a new building in 3 years or so.  The tower is filling up fast.  It would definitely be very close to the existing tower.

I would love to see OneOK move to OKC, but I doubt it will happen.  I am sure they meant OG&E.  I have heard rumors of OG&E possibly building a new tower.

----------


## 1972ford

I've seen Boral trucks otherwise known as Schwarz around town its an Australian company that has been expanding in the US they would help bring some balance to OKC if they were to build an American.headquarters here.  They have been building a new concrete plant downtown on the same property as the Schwarz has an exiting unused plant now.  I think they keep delaying the project due to I-40 realignment and crosstown.  I also know there are some mandates the city has put on its appearanve.

Boral is one of the largest construction supply companies in australia.  They own Schwarz and Boral Brick in Union City as well as some companies in fever those are just the ones I still remember.  With OKCs continuing growth and future projects and anticipated growth I am surprised Boral has not expanded in Oklahoma more Than it already has with the Oklahoma companies still sending checks to HQ throughout the recession.

----------


## Spartan

ONEOK is not leaving Tulsa.

----------


## Oil Capital

> Just a fun rumor from today's on-line chat with Steve Lackmeyer...



I think it should be clarified that it was not Steve Lackmeyer who made the quoted statement.  It was some random person named Chris.

I agree with Spartan.  Oneok is not leaving Tulsa.  

(FWIW, Oneok already has a significant presence in OKC.  It's subsidiary Oklahoma Natural Gas is headquartered in OKC, having been moved here from Tulsa a decade or so ago)

----------


## Nunu

Sorry, Im an outsider here and couldnt find the info with a quick Google search, but does anybody know how many employees the current Devon Tower can hold? Im guessing it is well over 5,000 due to the square footage of the building.

----------


## adaniel

^^
More like 2600-2800.

Thats still about 55 employees per floor. That's a pretty full load for most modern day office needs.

----------


## Snowman

> Sorry, Im an outsider here and couldnt find the info with a quick Google search, but does anybody know how many employees the current Devon Tower can hold? Im guessing it is well over 5,000 due to the square footage of the building


Part of it is planing to have room to expand, they had been distributed in six large buildings to get enough space for everyone, so they did not want to have to repeat that anytime soon

----------


## BoulderSooner

> ONEOK is not leaving Tulsa.


but it would be great if they did

----------


## mmonroe

My dream would be to have all current building owners (Corporations of course) to sell to developers for residential needs, retaining a lease with the developers until a new building is built.  This grows our skyline and makes ready buildings for condo's and other residential suites.

----------


## Bellaboo

I like the revived OGE rumor, back before PSB died it was rumored they were going to build a 28 story tower......

----------


## Nunu

> ^^
> More like 2600-2800.
> 
> Thats still about 55 employees per floor. That's a pretty full load for most modern day office needs.



That seems like the most inefficient floor plan possible. PNC is building an 800,000 sqft tower in Pittsburgh that will host 3,000 employees. Just doesnt add up for Devon to build a tower with twice as much space to house less employees.

PNC Tower Pittsburgh:

The new headquarters will feature more than 800,000 square feet of space and house some 3,000 employees.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz248KwOcCI


Duke Energy Center Charlotte:

Size: 48 floors, 1.5 million square feet

Already fully leased, the new tower, which will be Charlotte’s largest by square footage, could hold more than 6,500 employees.

http://www.charlottemagazine.com/Cha...The-New-Stuff/



The only reason I bring it up is because I find the speculation of Devon possibly building a new tower to be really far down the road, just doesnt seem like a legit rumor atm.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Have you seen the core of the Devon Tower?  It is rather massive with all the elevator bays, stairwells and what not.  The floor plans are not spacious like a WTC type environment.

----------


## Just the facts

Oh the irony - this from the people who made $500,000 homes entry-level.




> Wachovia condo tower
> Size: 46 floors, 326 units
> Opens: 2010
> Highlight: Huge balconies.
> 
> OK, so the name needs work, but when this baby fills with people, you’ll be able to notice the difference day and night on South Tryon. Wachovia’s Bob Bertges says the two-bedroom units in the tower "are not going to be entry level." Meaning, they’ll be large, with upscale finishes. The tower is still two or three years away, so not many details are available.


Of course, Wachovia bit the dust shortly after that was announced.

----------


## BG918

> If anything, ONEOK would build a new skyscraper in Tulsa, before OKC. Tulsa is due for a new skyscraper, and ONEOK could pull it off...


BOK and Williams could easily build new towers in Tulsa as well.  I imagine one of the three will eventually have a new tower there.  Not many people had even heard of Denver-based Cimarex but they are currently building an 18 story tower downtown.  BOK is back in acquisition mode and is already one of the bigger regional banks in the south-central/southwest region and the largest bank in Oklahoma.

----------


## Oil Capital

> ^^
> More like 2600-2800.
> 
> Thats still about 55 employees per floor. That's a pretty full load for most modern day office needs.


Everything I can find says it is designed to house 3000 employees, and roughly 2100 are moving in now.   That leaves room for about a 43% growth.

----------


## Lafferty Daniel

> BOK and Williams could easily build new towers in Tulsa as well.  I imagine one of the three will eventually have a new tower there.  Not many people had even heard of Denver-based Cimarex but they are currently building an 18 story tower downtown.  BOK is back in acquisition mode and is already one of the bigger regional banks in the south-central/southwest region and the largest bank in Oklahoma.


Why would BOK build a new tower when they don't even fill their current one? The BOK tower might be full, but it's not all BOK employees. It's leased to other companies as well.

----------


## Bellaboo

> BOK and Williams could easily build new towers in Tulsa as well.  I imagine one of the three will eventually have a new tower there.  Not many people had even heard of* Denver-based Cimarex* but they are currently building an 18 story tower downtown.  BOK is back in acquisition mode and is already one of the bigger regional banks in the south-central/southwest region and the largest bank in Oklahoma.


Cimarex has been in the Cana shale play out by Calumet for a few years now. They are also heavy into the Mississippi Lime just west of Tulsa. They are not the ones building the building in Tulsa, but they will be the primary tenant and thus the building name.

----------


## G.Walker

I don't think there is a mystery around if downtown OKC will get an announcement of a new office building soon, its more of what company will be building it. I was privileged to briefly talk to Beffort himself about this matter, though his answer wasn't detailed, it assured me that something is still in the works. The most recent information that I received from Beffort was that new office buildings will be announced for downtown by the end of 1st quarter '13.

----------


## Bellaboo

Guess we'll have to wait 6 or 7 months then.

----------


## mmonroe

Building(S) Plural!   :Smile:

----------


## MDot

> Building(S) Plural!


Caught that as well.  :Smile:

----------


## Teo9969

I don't even care if they're super tall...just so long as they make their presence visible in the skyline (10 stories+)...but would be awesome if at least one could bridge the gap between Chase and Devon.

----------


## BG918

> Why would BOK build a new tower when they don't even fill their current one? The BOK tower might be full, but it's not all BOK employees. It's leased to other companies as well.


BOK has a lot of office space in the Tulsa area outside of downtown, likely more combined than in their namesake tower which also includes the HQ for both Williams/WPX and Magellan Midstream, a large regional office for Newfield Exploration and a number of other companies such as Ernst & Young.  If they ever decided to pull a Devon and consolidate their office space they would likely need a new tower..

----------


## metro

Did anyone Scooby or Shaggy at the mystery tower meeting?

----------


## maverickbroncho

I work for Midland at the Grand Blvd location and we received notification today to clean our work spaces because Jeff Records would be touring our building with a 'special guest' tonight. Typically if we have auditors etc we have more notice and they arrive on a Monday, not a Thursday night. My guess is that a prospective buyer is coming in. If so, we would have to have a contingency (maybe downtown) to move people into. My hope is that this results in the new tower we all are anticipating.

----------


## jedicurt

> I work for Midland at the Grand Blvd location and we received notification today to clean our work spaces because Jeff Records would be touring our building with a 'special guest' tonight. Typically if we have auditors etc we have more notice and they arrive on a Monday, not a Thursday night. My guess is that a prospective buyer is coming in. If so, we would have to have a contingency (maybe downtown) to move people into. My hope is that this results in the new tower we all are anticipating.


I'm hearing something very similar from my source who has been providing me with information on MidFirst

----------


## Pete

The most obvious potential buyer would be Chesapeake, either for their own use or for the pipeline company they just spun off.

That business is housed in the Central Park buildings right across I-44 and Chesapeake Land still owns those properties.

----------


## Pete

Ooooh...  I can supply a webcam!

----------


## catch22

> LOL! I can just see it now.  The whole of OKCTalk members eagerly hovering over their laptops tonight waiting to see who the special guest is.  
> 
> You might break a traffic record on the site!


I think Catch22 might make a special appearance tonight....

Paparazzi?

----------


## maverickbroncho

Sounds like this visit will happen tonight. We were going to get notice if jean Friday was cancelled due to the visit and that didn't happen. Anyone want to stake out the parking lot?  :Smile:

----------


## okcfollower

> I think Catch22 might make a special appearance tonight....
> 
> Paparazzi?


How many wanna-be okctalk reporters are sitting in the parking lot to be the first to break the story on here about who the special guest is...

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> How many wanna-be okctalk reporters are sitting in the parking lot to be the first to break the story on here about who the special guest is...


My guess is zero.

----------


## kevinpate

> My guess is zero.


Not a bad guess.

----------


## maverickbroncho

Update: The visit has been ongoing this morning floor by floor in the building and has been with 'out-of-towners'. Lots of pointing and directing in the tour. (supports the prospective buyer idea) Also, the word here is that Records has refused to sell to Chesapeake, which raises the question of who else would want these properties?

----------


## Pete

Thanks for the updates.

It could be CHK Board members; all the new ones are from out of town.

Chesapeake really wants those properties and traditionally pays 2 to 5 times market value, so why the heck wouldn't Records want to sell to them?  I can understand holding out for as much money as possible but it doesn't make sense he would take less just to sell to someone else.

Remember, CHK owns all the parcels around the MidFirst/Midland buildings including everything between the two.

----------


## HangryHippo

I simply do not understand Records' refusal to sell.

----------


## kevinpate

Perhaps the current lookers, if not Chesapeake, are folks who want to buy and flip it to Chesapeake (given that whole overpay practice they've been known for)

----------


## Pete

He also owns Nichols Hills Tower which CHK desperately wants as part of the NH Plaza renovation.

----------


## metro

> How many wanna-be okctalk reporters are sitting in the parking lot to be the first to break the story on here about who the special guest is...


Dang, I woulda done it with my binoculars had I thought about it. Someone PM me next time we have a chance to scoop a story like this.

----------


## soonerguru

> I simply do not understand Records' refusal to sell.


Maybe he hates AM's guts.

----------


## Pete

I've heard from several different people that Records absolutely does not want to sell to Chesapeake.

Given the way CHK throws money around on far lesser properties, you have to know that they've offered Records a king's ransom, so perhaps it is indeed some sort of personal thing.

----------


## G.Walker

Maybe he did want to sell to CHK at one time, but with all the heat CHK has been taking lately, it would not be a good look for MidFirst to do business with them. Nonetheless, Records can't stop whoever does by the MidFirst properties from selling to CHK in the future, which will probably happen.

----------


## Pete

The rumors about Records not wanting to sell to CHK started long before all of Chesapeake's bad PR.

----------


## metro

> Maybe he hates AM's guts.


Maybe, but their both co-owners of the Thunder and roll around in the same clique.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

How many employees does MidFirst have?  In Steve's chat he mentioned that if everything he's tracking happens, over 1,000 new employees will be added to downtown.

----------


## Bellaboo

> How many employees does MidFirst have?  In Steve's chat he mentioned that if everything he's tracking happens, over 1,000 new employees will be added to downtown.


What was interesting was the 1,000 employee count was the minimum, otherwise the high end was 'much much more'.

----------


## okcfollower

> What was interesting was the 1,000 employee count was the minimum, otherwise the high end was 'much much more'.


Between Midland and Midfirst...they probably have quite the employee count

----------


## maverickbroncho

Total company (Midfirst and Midland including Arizona) is just over 2,000 last I heard.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Update: The visit has been ongoing this morning floor by floor in the building and has been with 'out-of-towners'. Lots of pointing and directing in the tour. (supports the prospective buyer idea) Also, the word here is that Records has refused to sell to Chesapeake, which raises the question of who else would want these properties?


Anyone ever find out who the 'visitors' were ???

----------


## Praedura

I heard tell that the visitors had very tall cone-shaped heads and reportedly were "from France"...
 :Wink:

----------


## Bellaboo

In todays online chat with Steve, he said a new tower is likely more so than before, even after AF.

----------


## Fantastic

> In todays online chat with Steve, he said a new tower is likely more so than before, even after AF.


Encouraging to say the least

----------


## Teo9969

> Encouraging to say the least


Fantastic, even  :Wink:

----------


## Bellaboo

From todays DOK land sales - 

'4th Street Properties LLC from the Oklahoman Publishing Company,
 property near NE 4 and N. E.K. Gaylord Blvd.,
 $1,970,000.00'


Is this the site of a possible new tower ?

----------


## catch22

Saw that this morning as well and was thinking the same thing...

That's the clear triangle shaped plot, right?

----------


## Easy180

MidFirst recently moved a lot of Midland Mortgage employees to Shepherd Mall and is just starting renovations on their operations center on Rockwell and Hefner

----------


## Bellaboo

> Saw that this morning as well and was thinking the same thing...
> 
> That's the clear triangle shaped plot, right?


I would think it is, at one time it was going to be the Chamber site.

----------


## catch22

Well hopefully we hear something soon and this wasn't bought purely on speculation. I haven't thought about this angle before, but having an iconic building on this would anchor the appearance of the dead end on Shield's as seen from the bridge over the highway. And would help tie Deep Deuce and AA by expanding the core a little bit more towards those districts. It would probably also slow traffic down by having a large streetwall against the curve of that turn.

----------


## Pete

> Saw that this morning as well and was thinking the same thing...
> 
> That's the clear triangle shaped plot, right?


Yes, most of it (yellow).  The remainder is owned by the City (pink).

Of course, this is owned by an LLC but I know the attorney that filed and will see what I can find out.  My hunch is MidFirst.

----------


## maverickbroncho

Wanted to follow up on the Midfirst/Midland news. Highly unlikely the visit last week regarded a potential buyer, but it was said to center around a type of expansion. Can't really elaborate.

Seperatley, pending a lease being signed, more employees will be moving from the 3Grand location to shepherd mall before the end of the year, maybe as soon as October 1. Unsure who will replace these openings at 3G, but with the growth, building or buying an additional facility still seems likely.

----------


## Pete

If it was MidFirst/Midland behind the downtown purchase, they are at least three and probably four or five years from being able to move into a new building if they were to build something new.

So, they certainly wouldn't need to sell this far in advance and in fact, it would probably be difficult to find a buyer who wants to commit now and wait that long.

Except for Chesapeake, of course.

----------


## Steve

Pete, I'm not going to speculate on names, etc. But one would be amazed at how much work might be done at this point. If a company was buying this land for a tower, one could be up and open in less than three years. I suspect the upcoming Devon book will bring a lot of clarity to how these projects proceed.

----------


## Pete

I know from the time Devon started construction, they were moving people in within about 2.5 years.

But my point still stands:  If it is MidFirst they wouldn't be able to completely turn over their buildings for at least 3 years, and that's the best possible scenario.

Even after the Devon announcement, it took about a year to start construction, and we all know a ton of work was done before that announcement.


Steve, when does you book come out??

----------


## G.Walker

Hate to let everyone down, but 4th Street Properties, LLC is the same company that is developing the Maywood Apartments, so it looks like this site may just be for a future residential project, possibly phase 2 of the Maywood Apartments, unless they are acting as a proxy for a particular company.

http://www.okc.gov/agendapub/cache/2...2011530357.PDF

----------


## Pete

> Hate to let everyone down, but 4th Street Properties, LLC is the same company that is developing the Maywood Apartments, so it looks like this site may just be for a future residential project, possibly phase 2 of the Maywood Apartments, unless they are acting as a proxy for a particular company.
> 
> http://www.okc.gov/agendapub/cache/2...2011530357.PDF


Nope, completely different entities.

Maywood Apartments is being developed by 4th Street Investors LP and this property was purchased by 4th Street Properties LLC.

Similar names but completely different ownership groups; this new one was just formed August 12, 2012.

----------


## G.Walker

Did you not read the PDF file? It specifically said 4th Street Properties, LLC.

----------


## G.Walker

Google this: "4th Street Properties, LLC" oklahoma city 

And tell me what you see...

----------


## Pete

I saw that...  But the Ron Bradshaw group never registered that name -- were just using it temporarily as they were 4th Street Apartments LLC.

They own the Maywood Land under 4th Street Investors and the mailing address and contact people are completely different than 4th Street Properties.


These are not the same groups.

----------


## Spartan

> Pete, I'm not going to speculate on names, etc. But one would be amazed at how much work might be done at this point. If a company was buying this land for a tower, one could be up and open in less than three years. I suspect the upcoming Devon book will bring a lot of clarity to how these projects proceed.


This is to say that using the Devon model timeline, there could already be architects and engineers working behind the scenes, and land surveyors could have already done as much without being noticed...this way a project of magnitude could pop at any moment. We all knew something was up with Devon, just as we know stuff is going on riot now... But here's the kicker, is that Devon could have easily been scared by 2008 and shut the whole thing down making us feel stupid for expecting a new skyscraper.

We will either feel very stupid or very smart, and either be bummed or elated, and this could pop tomorrow, in a year, or never...

----------


## Pete

We know MidFirst put a bid in on the OPUBCO properties on Broadway Extension and were topped by American Fidelity.

We also know they have been taking more and more space at Class B/C Shepherd Mall.


All signs point to MidFirst/Midland.

----------


## Steve

I can pretty much guarantee Bradshaw isn't banking this property....

----------


## stdennis

I wonder if the city would sell the rest of the property between 3rd and 4th so they can build out that property to EK

----------


## Pete

> I wonder if the city would sell the rest of the property between 3rd and 4th so they can build out that property to EK


I am sure that is part of the deal.

----------


## Just the facts

It seems to me that $2 million for a parcel of land would be one of the last pieces of the development puzzle, not one of the first.

----------


## Spartan

> We know MidFirst put a bid in on the OPUBCO properties on Broadway Extension and were topped by American Fidelity.
> 
> We also know they have been *taking more and more space at Class B/C Shepherd Mall*.
> 
> 
> All signs point to MidFirst/Midland.


Wow, didn't know...that's big. This is looking very Devon pre-2009.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Wow, didn't know...that's big. This is looking very Devon pre-2009.


No, that's not big.  They're not going to build a tower at $400/sf so that they can consolidate call center staff.  That being said, I wouldn't rule them out.

----------


## Easy180

> No, that's not big.  They're not going to build a tower at $400/sf so that they can consolidate call center staff.  That being said, I wouldn't rule them out.


I wouldn't really focus on call center staff...Decent amount of em but the vast majority are operations

----------


## Pete

Again, we know they wanted to consolidate all their personnel at the Broadway/Britton site, so it does seem to be a priority.

With AF out of the picture, I can't imagine who else would be in line to put up a significant downtown structure at this point.

Continental would be a good candidate, but it may be a little soon for them.

----------


## Pete

I know the attorney who is the official registrant for the LLC that bought the property at 4th & EK Gaylord.

He said the buyers wish to be completely confidential at this point and wouldn't say anything more.


This tells me something big is brewing for that site otherwise there wouldn't be the need for such secrecy.

----------


## plmccordj

I know some people don't like the speculation if it is not a fact but I really enjoy the possibilities.  I really appreciate this board and this thread.  Thank you all for posting information as you get it.

----------


## Pete

Yes, it's fun to think about the possibilities.


If we could get a 30-40 story building at 4th & Gaylord and another on the Stage Center or Preftakes site, plus the CC hotel and a new SandRidge building, our skyline would be extended in every direction and we would have some really nice density in the CBD.

----------


## plmccordj

If all of those were to come into being, that would be incredible.  We would be the most photographed city in America  :Smile:  Just kidding.

----------


## Just the facts

> If we could get a 30-40 story building at 4th & Gaylord and another on the Stage Center or Preftakes site, plus the CC hotel and a new SandRidge building, our skyline would be extended in every direction and we would have some really nice density in the CBD.


Not to mention the 3 new hotel in Bricktown along Sheridan.  The will make the Sheridan street wall just over one 1 mile long.

----------


## Naptown12713

Could this be the building that will be built at this proposed site.

----------


## lasomeday

> Could this be the building that will be built at this proposed site.


I sure hope not!  I hope they build something that suits the site.  A building that calls  you to look up Shields and pulls you in as you look up from Deep Deuce.

----------


## G.Walker

> Could this be the building that will be built at this proposed site.


A taller version of this wouldn't be to shabby for that site...This architectural style is outdated though, this says mid 90's to me...I woul expect something more modern...

----------


## Teo9969

> If all of those were to come into being, that would be incredible.  We would be the most photographed city in America  Just kidding.


Build the right buildings and it might be...but likely those right buildings would have to be so very wrong  :Wink:

----------


## OKCnBA

...isn't "banking" this property...  Steve, is that a subtle hint?

----------


## Teo9969

> Yes, it's fun to think about the possibilities.
> 
> 
> If we could get a 30-40 story building at 4th & Gaylord and another on the Stage Center or Preftakes site, plus the CC hotel and a new SandRidge building, our skyline would be extended in every direction and we would have some really nice density in the CBD.


Do we know the site of the new SandRidge tower? Is it going on the Chase Bank plot just to the east of SR tower?

It seems somewhat obvious that Preftakes is either a future Devon project or residential, and I would assume that's not an ideal spot for high-rise residential, so Devon seems like the best answer there (unless it's maybe Continental)

Also, to the density point...I've noticed after going through Austin and Tulsa recently and seeing some other Tier-3/Tier-2 skylines, that OKC's skyline is actually dense in comparison. Austin's skyline is incredibly sprawled and Tulsa's is minimal, but could be made to look denser if the buildings were plotted differently.

----------


## Pete

> Do we know the site of the new SandRidge tower? Is it going on the Chase Bank plot just to the east of SR tower?


Immediately east -- between the current tower and Broadway.  Estimated at 15-20 floors.

----------


## G.Walker

> I know the attorney who is the official registrant for the LLC that bought the property at 4th & EK Gaylord.
> 
> He said the buyers wish to be completely confidential at this point and wouldn't say anything more.
> 
> 
> This tells me something big is brewing for that site otherwise there wouldn't be the need for such secrecy.


Don't know if this means anything, but noticed utility marker flags in the ground at this site today, and alot of black plastic conduit.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Don't know if this means anything, but noticed utility marker flags in the ground at this site today, and alot of black plastic conduit.


That black plastic conduit was there in the spring......maybe this has been in the works a little longer than expected, or just some utility upgrade.

----------


## Spartan

> No, that's not big.  They're not going to build a tower at $400/sf so that they can consolidate call center staff.  That being said, I wouldn't rule them out.


Give me a break. The biggest knock on MidFirst building anew a year ago is that they hadn't outgrown their current digs on 44.

----------


## G.Walker

One thing that I also noticed about this site, is that it sits lower than the rest of downtown, at a bottom of a hill, so a 40 story at this site won't look like a true 40 story office tower compared to the rest of downtown.

----------


## catch22

You're only talking a 20 foot elevation change at most. So yes, it might look like a 39 story building. Just getting into too small of details before we even know anything about this.

----------


## G.Walker

> You're only talking a 20 foot elevation change at most. So yes, it might look like a 39 story building. Just getting into too small of details before we even know anything about this.


I just thought I'd throw that out there, but looks more than a 20 foot dip to me...

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Maybe said fantasy development will have steps leading up to it so it will be level with the average plain of downtown. No, probably not...

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Give me a break. The biggest knock on MidFirst building anew a year ago is that they hadn't outgrown their current digs on 44.


And like I said BEFORE.  They aren't going to build at $400 sf downtown so they can consolidate their call center staff that they are currently housing in B/C Shepherd Mall space.  If they build downtown, which I hope happens, don't look for them to move their call center staff downtown when they can place them in any number of spaces around the city for much cheaper.

----------


## Just the facts

I don't know about that.  When I worked for a large company in Tampa we had several floors of customer sevice in our downtown Tampa office tower because the CEO wanted all of his employees (minus the data center staff) in one location.  We found we actualy got a better class of applicant and the employees were more productive by having them in a more high profile location.  Nice surrounding have a way of bringing out the best in people.  One of the problem with remote locations is that it create high turn-over because the employee doesn't see any opportunity for advancement and builds resentment between low level employees and upper management.  Companies that have a mix-use of employee type in the same building seem to work the best.

----------


## Bellaboo

At the Data Center on NW Expwy, Hertz had 90% of their IT and 30% of their Reservation at that location for a while. This was due to needed overflow of the reservation center, but no adverse effects came from it. They had about half of one floor out of the 5 floors at that location.

----------


## Praedura

Ok, this is not our presumed "Mystery Tower". However, it is a cool video rendering of a fantasy residential tower in OKC that incorporates a vertical garden:




I like!

----------


## Praedura

The guy who created that video is Kevin Barrett. Here's a link with some more info:

Vertical Garden (3D) Project

There are a few screenshots that show the software renderings when he was designing the tower.
Obviously, the guy is really talented.

----------


## Teo9969

I can't figure out where that photo is shot from.

Looks to be just a little west of Classen and somewhere between 10th and 23rd

----------


## CaptDave

How about dropping that building on the Stage Center site? The Myriad Gardens would cross the street and go vertical.

----------


## Spartan

> And like I said BEFORE.  They aren't going to build at $400 sf downtown so they can consolidate their call center staff that they are currently housing in B/C Shepherd Mall space.  If they build downtown, which I hope happens, don't look for them to move their call center staff downtown when they can place them in any number of spaces around the city for much cheaper.


Well that's one thing OGE in weighing....

----------


## betts

I heard something depressing last night and I certainly hope it's not true. I heard Sandridge bought the  4th and Broadway land for a parking garage. You'd think they could build on one of the closer existing parking lots. They'd better be planning for street level retail or I'll be bitterly disappointed.

----------


## Pete

Steve has said its definitely not SR.

----------


## betts

I certainly hope you're right.  I heard it from a source that I would expect to have reasonably reliable information.  But, I want to be wrong.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I certainly hope you're right.  I heard it from a source that I would expect to have reasonably reliable information.  But, I want to be wrong.


Some of us think that MidFirst is going to build a new tower at that location................this is just a big guess though.

----------


## Pete

betts, I think there may be some confusion because it's been long known that SandRidge wants to buy the Chase Bank property at 3rd & EKG, immediately north of the Broadway/Kerr parking garage they recent purchased.

There are some SR renderings showing that garage expanded into that space.

----------


## betts

I guess we'll just have to wait to find out.  I would be a lot more excited to have a new tower as a neighbor than a new parking garage.  It didn't make sense to me, because there is closer open land to Sandridge than it and commuters hate to get their feet wet, much less cross streets.  But the source was a pretty good one.

----------


## G.Walker

Yea, it doesn't make sense to me, if SR was behind the purchase, why would they do it under 4th Street Properties, LLC? Moreover, why would they be so confidential about the purchase if it just was for a parking garage? I guess we will just have to wait and find out, like everything else....

----------


## Pete

From Steve's last chat:




> Steve Lackmeyer
> 10:00 a.m.
> An LLC is behind the purchase at NW 4 and E.K. Gaylord and so far Ive been unable to determine who is behind the LLC. For this site to work, keep in mind half of it is owned and controlled by the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority. Its pricey piece of dirt now, so I can understand why some may think the block could be a potential skyscraper site. *I do know that SandRidge Energy was trying to acquire the property earlier this year, but officials with the company say they ended the effort and they are not the buyer*.
> 
> 
> Read more: Unedited transcript of OKC Central Chat with Steve Lackmeyer, Sept. 7, 2012 | NewsOK.com

----------


## G.Walker

Well I guess that answers our question, lol  :Cool:

----------


## pickles

> From Steve's last chat:


I am relieved.

----------


## kevinpate

Oh piddle.  I found my tin foil hat and tried it on a moment ago. And dang it, the first thought I had was ... not the buyer doesn't equal not the ultimate owner.

But, because I kinda like betts, I ripped the hat off my head, scrunched it up and used it for nerf-batting practice.  I sure hope that's enough.

----------


## HOT ROD

I think Betts' source was talking about Sandridge buying the Chase Triangle and misnamed it as 4th and Broadway. ....

the source probably just thought the triangle is on 4th (which it is close enough). ..

----------


## Steve

> I certainly hope you're right.  I heard it from a source that I would expect to have reasonably reliable information.  But, I want to be wrong.


SR says they did not buy the "triangle" at 4th and Broadway. Don't be surprised if SR has or will buy the Chase drive-in at Robert S. Kerr (3rd) and Broadway for an expansion of the BK garage. This is probably what Betts' source is talking about.

----------


## HOT ROD

isn't that what I said? <shrug?>

----------


## Easy180

Just noticed this open job position at MidFirst on jobsok.com....Hmmm

Corporate Space Planner - MidFirst Bank

----------


## Pete

From Steve's chat today:

Do you have any news on the new high rise or where it will be built?

*It's still very possible a story might break on a new high rise before the end of the year. Keep your sights set on what develops with the Stage Center property.*


Read more: Steve Lackmeyer: Tower Theater still key to revival of NW 23, but owner struggling to tackle tough renovation | NewsOK.com

----------


## Spartan

> Ok, this is not our presumed "Mystery Tower". However, it is a cool video rendering of a fantasy residential tower in OKC that incorporates a vertical garden:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like!


So this looks like it would be on the AF parking lots were it real?

----------


## Bellaboo

All hypothetical here, but in todays chat with Steve, someone asked the question if Continental was going to build a new headquarters since they are busting at the seams. I think his answer was 'You never know'.....

Maybe he knows something but has to be in denial at this point.

----------


## Pete

All off-topic posts have been deleted.

Back to subject please.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Id say lets let Continental settle into their new digs first and then get some press about five years down the road. Can't necessarily bank on it quite yet.

----------


## SharkSandwich

> All hypothetical here, but in todays chat with Steve, someone asked the question if Continental was going to build a new headquarters since they are busting at the seams. I think his answer was 'You never know'.....
> 
> Maybe he knows something but has to be in denial at this point.


I heard Harold Hamm speak on Friday at the Governor's Energy Conference and he said they are on schedule to reach their 5 year employee growth plan in 3 years.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I heard Harold Hamm speak on Friday at the Governor's Energy Conference and he said they are on schedule to reach their 5 year employee growth plan in 3 years.


You know, if they are a couple of years ahead of schedule, maybe they realize they'll need more space sooner than previously thought. With 3 years being the estimated minimum for a major structure, they just could be the one.

----------


## Pete

Also, Devon has provided a pretty good blueprint for any growing OKC company who wants to build their own tower.  The process of working with the City to acquire land, the approval process, budgets, timelines, etc.

And, I bet Larry Nichols would be more than happy to provide guidance.  These guys all know each other well after all.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'm convinced that any new major tower other than from AF, which won't happen now, or Midfirst has to be energy related. The only two I could see is OG&E or Continental. If I recall, Continentals plan was to employ over 750 within 5 years, and with only 13 or 14 available floors in their office building, they will be in the same position that Devon was in being spread out in multiple buildings. It will probably depend on the election results in November as to where this will all end up.

----------


## catch22

Maybe Mid America tower is our incubator for downtown towers!

----------


## HangryHippo

> I'm convinced that any new major tower other than from AF, which won't happen now, or Midfirst has to be energy related. The only two I could see is OG&E or Continental. If I recall, Continentals plan was to employ over 750 within 5 years, and with only 13 or 14 available floors in their office building, they will be in the same position that Devon was in being spread out in multiple buildings. It will probably depend on the election results in November as to where this will all end up.


I really wish MidFirst would move downtown.  That'd be a nice coup.  It wouldn't upset me to see OG&E consolidate down there either.  And if Continental had to build, well damn, that'd be the icing on a very sweet cake.

----------


## SharkSandwich

> I'm convinced that any new major tower other than from AF, which won't happen now, or Midfirst has to be energy related. The only two I could see is OG&E or Continental. If I recall, Continentals plan was to employ over 750 within 5 years, and with only 13 or 14 available floors in their office building, they will be in the same position that Devon was in being spread out in multiple buildings. It will probably depend on the election results in November as to where this will all end up.


Don't forget the very real possibility that Devon could be adding another building/tower sooner than expected, too.

----------


## catch22

> Don't forget the very real possibility that Devon could be adding another building/tower sooner than expected, too.


Not doubting you at all, but where are you getting this info?

How full is the current tower?

----------


## bombermwc

I'm pretty sure the Devon tower has ample space folks...chill.

----------


## Pete

Actually, a couple of Devon employees have posted that the tower is already pretty full.

If that is the case, then they may already be in the planning stages for expansion, as we now know it takes almost a full 3 years to bring office space on-line.


Also, keep in mind they are in a very strong financial position; they paid cash for their $750 million complex after all.  So, they could very easily buy a ton of new assets or even a smaller energy company or two and that would drive the need for a lot more space.

----------


## G.Walker

> Actually, a couple of Devon employees have posted that the tower is already pretty full.
> 
> If that is the case, then they may already be in the planning stages for expansion, as we now know it takes almost a full 3 years to bring office space on-line.
> 
> 
> Also, keep in mind they are in a very strong financial position; they paid cash for their $750 million complex after all.  So, they could very easily buy a ton of new assets or even a smaller energy company or two and that would drive the need for a lot more space.


I honestly think that Devon will be expanding on the Preftakes block in conjunction with a medical facility. Don't they have a Devon Tower completion ceremony on 10/23? I wonder if they will announce or hint to something then? Or could Devon be behind developments with Stage Center, a lot of questions will be answered in the next 6 months.

----------


## Pete

Yes, it's pretty clear Devon is behind the Preftakes acquisitions, so it's just a matter of time before they start doing something on that block.

I'm sure they are at least some conceptual plans they've been working on.

----------


## Teo9969

I kind of hope Devon is not behind stage center.

High-Rise residential (obviously with street level retail/restaurant) is almost surely the best use of that plot. It's right between the downtown elementary and MBG, super close and centrally located to all the CBD entertainment options like Civic Center and the Arena, and would really increase foot traffic around the Convention Center (if it ends up being built on the Ford Site) since Central Park would only be 3 blocks away. It would also have a fantastic view for the foreseeable future.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Yes, it's pretty clear Devon is behind the Preftakes acquisitions, so it's just a matter of time before they start doing something on that block.
> 
> I'm sure they are at least some conceptual plans they've been working on.


Forgive my ignorance, but when did it become pretty clear that Devon is behind the Preftakes acquisitions?  I apparently missed something.

And not to be a Debbie Downer, but it seems that a lot of this talk of Continental needing a new facility and Devon looking to expand seems awfully premature.  Throw in some of these calls for Maps IV, and it seems totally irrational.  We're still mired in the mess that is Maps 3 that is overrun with problems and cutbacks and we're talking about what may be in the next package and Continental is still moving in... /endrant

----------


## Pete

"Pretty clear" is a bit of an overstatement but Devon's attorneys have been helping Pretakes and there are other little signs of their involvement.

I would say lots of people who follow downtown closely all believe Devon is the money behind the acquisitions.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Forgive my ignorance, but when did it become pretty clear that Devon is behind the Preftakes acquisitions?  I apparently missed something.
> 
> And not to be a Debbie Downer, but it seems that a lot of this talk of Continental needing a new facility and Devon looking to expand seems awfully premature.  Throw in some of these calls for Maps IV, and it seems totally irrational.  We're still mired in the mess that is Maps 3 that is overrun with problems and cutbacks and we're talking about what may be in the next package and Continental is still moving in... /endrant


I don't think I dreamed this, but when Preftakes got a demolition permit for the property just east of the Bus station that ended up being a parking lot, at one of the public meetings, some of Devons attorneys were present.....that may be where some of this is coming from. About 3 years ago I think.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I don't think I dreamed this, but when Preftakes got a demolition permit for the property just east of the Bus station that ended up being a parking lot, at one of the public meetings, some of Devons attorneys were present.....that may be where some of this is coming from. About 3 years ago I think.


Well, after your and Pete's responses, it's very clear I missed that little nugget.  Thanks for sharing.

----------


## LakeEffect

> I don't think I dreamed this, but when Preftakes got a demolition permit for the property just east of the Bus station that ended up being a parking lot, at one of the public meetings, some of Devons attorneys were present.....that may be where some of this is coming from. About 3 years ago I think.


Devon wrote a letter of support, which on its face seemed really odd...

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Forgive my ignorance, but when did it become pretty clear that Devon is behind the Preftakes acquisitions?  I apparently missed something.
> 
> And not to be a Debbie Downer, but it seems that a lot of this talk of Continental needing a new facility and Devon looking to expand seems awfully premature.  Throw in some of these calls for Maps IV, and it seems totally irrational.  We're still mired in the mess that is Maps 3 that is overrun with problems and cutbacks and we're talking about what may be in the next package and Continental is still moving in... /endrant


i'm sorry but i think it is really early to say we are "mired in the mess that is Maps 3"

----------


## soonerguru

> Forgive my ignorance, but when did it become pretty clear that Devon is behind the Preftakes acquisitions?  I apparently missed something.
> 
> And not to be a Debbie Downer, but it seems that a lot of this talk of Continental needing a new facility and Devon looking to expand seems awfully premature.  Throw in some of these calls for Maps IV, and it seems totally irrational.  We're still mired in the mess that is Maps 3 that is overrun with problems and cutbacks and we're talking about what may be in the next package and Continental is still moving in... /endrant


The MAPS III tax has been overperforming projections. It's not true that there have been "cutbacks." There are other issues with MAPS III, primarily concern that the most expensive project, the convention center, will not be able to be built for the price tag approved by voters, but the MAPS III tax collections have been robust.

----------


## bombermwc

> Actually, a couple of Devon employees have posted that the tower is already pretty full.
> 
> If that is the case, then they may already be in the planning stages for expansion, as we now know it takes almost a full 3 years to bring office space on-line.
> 
> 
> Also, keep in mind they are in a very strong financial position; they paid cash for their $750 million complex after all.  So, they could very easily buy a ton of new assets or even a smaller energy company or two and that would drive the need for a lot more space.




Didn't they say that they hadn't even finished building out the new tower yet? How can it already be full when they've said themselves that they weren't going to fill it up? I'd say check the sources.

3 years is a overblown estimate as well. If you're talking building a new building, yes. But you can get office space converted from a precious tenant, even if you gut it, in a few months.

----------


## HangryHippo

> i'm sorry but i think it is really early to say we are "mired in the mess that is Maps 3"


As a contrarian, you never disappoint.  Perhaps it's not mired in a mess, but it sure as hell doesn't look like it's going swimmingly.

Guru, the tax collections may be going well, but they surely have talked about cutting back the sidewalks (if no other funding is found in addition to these robust collections you mentioned) and the convention center is still a major concern.  So let's not pretend that all is well with Maps 3 and then move right along to discussing Maps 4.

----------


## Just the facts

All you have to do is watch last weeks city council meeting to see the problems with MAPS 3.  It isn't a money problem, it is a process problem.

----------


## betts

> As a contrarian, you never disappoint.  Perhaps it's not mired in a mess, but it sure as hell doesn't look like it's going swimmingly.
> 
> Guru, the tax collections may be going well, but they surely have talked about cutting back the sidewalks (if no other funding is found in addition to these robust collections you mentioned) and the convention center is still a major concern.  So let's not pretend that all is well with Maps 3 and then move right along to discussing Maps 4.


Unless you have been regularly attending all the subcommittee meetings, it's difficult to know precisely how swimmingly MAPS 3 is going or not.  While I agree that the sidewalk problem is a major disappointment, it is only one of 7 projects. The problem with it seems to be related to poor analysis of cost factors prior to the vote, but the committee has clearly been hard at work and we will get sidewalks, if not as many as were touted. While many of us have concerns about the convention center site, I'm not sure that qualifies as not "going swimmingly".  The committee has picked a site and a designer.  If anything, it may be going too swimmingly for a lot of people.  The new central park is almost done with land acquisition for the north half of the park and they've got an architect.  They're having public meetings.  It looks as if they are doing very well.  The streetcar committee has a route and an engineer.  Public meetings are in the offing, once we've had the engineer give the route a hard look and make suggestions for changes, if necessary.  The river subcommittee work also, pardon my enjoyment of the pun, seems be be moving along swimmingly as well.  It's still fairly early in the process, as we don't even have the final MAPS for Kids project completed, but I'm excited about what we're going to get with MAPS 3, and I suspect that once all the dust has cleared, the public will be as well.  What we don't need to do is create a bunch of sturm und drang about it that helps mire the process.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Unless you have been regularly attending all the subcommittee meetings, it's difficult to know precisely how swimmingly MAPS 3 is going or not.  While I agree that the sidewalk problem is a major disappointment, it is only one of 7 projects. The problem with it seems to be related to poor analysis of cost factors prior to the vote, but the committee has clearly been hard at work and we will get sidewalks, if not as many as were touted. While many of us have concerns about the convention center site, I'm not sure that qualifies as not "going swimmingly".  The committee has picked a site and a designer.  If anything, it may be going too swimmingly for a lot of people.  The new central park is almost done with land acquisition for the north half of the park and they've got an architect.  They're having public meetings.  It looks as if they are doing very well.  The streetcar committee has a route and an engineer.  Public meetings are in the offing, once we've had the engineer give the route a hard look and make suggestions for changes, if necessary.  The river subcommittee work also, pardon my enjoyment of the pun, seems be be moving along swimmingly as well.  It's still fairly early in the process, as we don't even have the final MAPS for Kids project completed, but I'm excited about what we're going to get with MAPS 3, and I suspect that once all the dust has cleared, the public will be as well.  What we don't need to do is create a bunch of sturm und drang about it that helps mire the process.


Betts, I have been as active in the processes as my schedule and other factors has allowed me to be.  It is difficult to gauge the success of Maps 3 at this early juncture, which was really my original point about exercising a little patience as we wait to see how Maps 3 unfolds before we go touting a potential Maps 4/new Continental building/Devon expansion/whatever else.

----------


## betts

I don't think anyone is really touting a MAPS 4.  Or at least, not that I've heard.  Obviously, we all speculate as to what other projects or expansions we'd like to see, and since at this point in time our best model for projects is MAPS, it's natural to think ahead.  But, while I think it's perfectly reasonable to start thinking about what might be in a MAPS 4 election, we need a lot more concrete in the ground before it would be politically wise to start talking publicly about it.  That being said, I do believe that the public will be very happy with the MAPS 3 projects once they're completed.  The general voting public is probably far less interested in the location of the convention center than most of us and if it looks nice, they'll be happy.  In fact, if no one published the fact that we're not going to get as many miles of sidewalks as promised, the public probably wouldn't question the end result.  That is, unless they thought they were voting for putting sidewalks throughout the city.  Which is possible.  I've been shocked that a few people thought they were voting for a few more rubber tire trolleys when they voted for a streetcar.

----------


## jedicurt

So getting back to the possibilites of a Mystery Tower... I'm hoping for a 50 story tall building to be built by the guy who just bought Dipping Dots!  And i hope the building looks just like a big cup of dipping dots, and i want it to go on the site just south of the arena where we all kinda thought the CC should have gone originally.  (which btw is kinda crazy now that i think about it, cause i actually hope they decide to move the CC to the Bricktown site, cause the more i think about it, the more i like that site the best.  Just imagine the 20-30 story convention center hotel that is a full brick building, well probably partially brick)

----------


## Just the facts

> So getting back to the possibilites of a Mystery Tower... I'm hoping for a 50 story tall building to be built by the guy who just bought Dipping Dots!  And i hope the building looks just like a big cup of dipping dots, and i want it to go on the site just south of the arena where we all kinda thought the CC should have gone originally.  (which btw is kinda crazy now that i think about it, cause i actually hope they decide to move the CC to the Bricktown site, cause the more i think about it, the more i like that site the best.  Just imagine the 20-30 story convention center hotel that is a full brick building, well probably partially brick)


So you want something like this ...

The Basket Building in Ohio

----------


## jedicurt

> So you want something like this ...
> 
> The Basket Building in Ohio


o my gosh... how did i not know that building existed until today... haha

----------


## soonerguru

> As a contrarian, you never disappoint.  Perhaps it's not mired in a mess, but it sure as hell doesn't look like it's going swimmingly.
> 
> Guru, the tax collections may be going well, but they surely have talked about cutting back the sidewalks (if no other funding is found in addition to these robust collections you mentioned) and the convention center is still a major concern.  So let's not pretend that all is well with Maps 3 and then move right along to discussing Maps 4.


Not pretending everything is going swimmingly. The issue with the sidewalks is that the costs came in way above projections, like by 40%. There was no fiduciary "cutback," it's just that the folks doing the projecting obviously screwed the pooch.

----------


## hoya

MAPS 4 will happen or it won't.  That will probably be determined by how happy people are with MAPS 3.  The MAPS program has a huge amount of goodwill because it gets credit for giving us the Thunder.  Whenever MAPS 3 is completed, if the convention center looks nice and the streetcar is cool, then there'll be all the support in the world for the next version.  I can't help but think people will want to build a football stadium where the Cotton Seed Mill is now.

----------


## Spartan

A football stadium makes about as much sense as a high-speed commuter rail connection to Anadarko. The NFL still needs to figure out how to get a franchise in LA.

Maps 4, if we don't screw it up with what a boondoggle Maps 3 has turned into, will be a big push for transit.

----------


## wschnitt

> MAPS 4 will happen or it won't.


Hard to disagree with this statement.




> I can't help but think people will want to build a football stadium where the Cotton Seed Mill is now.


This would be such a bad idea.  An underused football team-less football stadium

----------


## jedicurt

if a football stadium is what people think needs to be built, it should be the size of Taft stadium and be used for high school games, and maybe a UFL team (or a USFL team since they claim to be coming back this spring) (also should be set up to be used for soccer).  And if that is the size, then why waste good real estate like that for it... i would say build it at the State Fair Grounds.  OKC will not have an NFL team in my lifetime, and i am a fairly young man

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## BoulderSooner

> if a football stadium is what people think needs to be built, it should be the size of Taft stadium and be used for high school games, and maybe a UFL team (or a USFL team since they claim to be coming back this spring) (also should be set up to be used for soccer).  And if that is the size, then why waste good real estate like that for it... i would say build it at the State Fair Grounds.  OKC will not have an NFL team in my lifetime, and i am a fairly young man


all it would take is someone to buy a team that wanted to move it to OKC

----------


## dankrutka

I agree that a football stadium makes no sense. Now, if OKC had a lead on an MLS team then a soccer stadium that could also be used for football might be worth doing, but I'm not sure there's even a market for that. This topic has been discussed many times before in other threads.

----------


## jedicurt

> all it would take is someone to buy a team that wanted to move it to OKC


and while that is true... i'm just saying we won't get one.  i think that's a pretty easy statement to make.

----------


## hoya

I didn't say it was a good idea. I just think that's what people will want. Personally I'd want to see money to renovate First National and have it owned by the city.

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## BDP

> The NFL still needs to figure out how to get a franchise in LA.


Yeah, and they're spending like a billion + dollars on their new stadium. We're talking 30% more than we'll spend on all the MAPS 3 projects combined.

I'd rather us just pump more money into the park and make it super awesome.

----------


## OKCRT

> I didn't say it was a good idea. I just think that's what people will want. Personally I'd want to see money to renovate First National and have it owned by the city.



Many people said the same thing about building an arena. They cried about spending money on a arena with no team to play in it. Well guess what?

No arena and the Hornets wouldn't have even sniffed OKC and the Thunder sure as hell wouldn't be here.

Look at Jacksonville,they are about to lose that team in the next few yrs. They have a new owner from somewhere around St. Louis/Ill. area that tried to buy the Rams. He's not going to keep that team there when he can't draw flies. 

So there is a chance that a deal could be made to bring an NFL team to the city. A small chance but if there are deep enough pockets that want it to happen then there's a chance. One thing that I don't think anyone would disagree with is that the cotton mill site would be perfect for a stadium. It screams stadium in fact. Too bad OKC doesn't have more forward thinking people.

----------


## jedicurt

> Many people said the same thing about building an arena. They cried about spending money on a arena with no team to play in it. Well guess what?
> 
> No arena and the Hornets wouldn't have even sniffed OKC and the Thunder sure as hell wouldn't be here.
> 
> Look at Jacksonville,they are about to lose that team in the next few yrs. They have a new owner from somewhere around St. Louis/Ill. area that tried to buy the Rams. He's not going to keep that team there when he can't draw flies. 
> 
> So there is a chance that a deal could be made to bring an NFL team to the city. A small chance but if there are deep enough pockets that want it to happen then there's a chance. One thing that I don't think anyone would disagree with is that the cotton mill site would be perfect for a stadium. It screams stadium in fact. Too bad OKC doesn't have more forward thinking people.


That theory sure worked out for San Antonio as well... they built a stadium specifically to get an NFL team, and how long have they been waiting?

----------


## bigsmooth

Once we get the stadium built, let's go after the Seahawks !!   LOL

----------


## betts

I was just thinking of the cities bigger than OKC that don't have an NFL team.  That was not really the case for the NBA.  We were right about the size of the smallest NBA markets.  LA has no team, nor does Portland or San Antonio.  Memphis is just a little bit bigger than us, although they've got the Titans and Salt Lake City doesn't really have any geographic ties to teams.  Not to mention the fact that Jerry Jones would probably lobby extremely hard against us getting a team.  I don't see it happening, even though I think we could and would support an NFL team.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I hate to be "that guy", but it seems like almost every thread on this site is getting sidetracked.

----------


## dankrutka

> I didn't say it was a good idea. I just think that's what people will want. Personally I'd want to see money to renovate First National and have it owned by the city.


Okay. I also disagree that people would want that.

----------


## dankrutka

> I hate to be "that guy", but it seems like almost every thread on this site is getting sidetracked.


Great now we're talking about sidetracked threads... now we're even more sidetracked.

----------


## ABryant

> Great now we're talking about sidetracked threads... now we're even more sidetracked.


It is a mystery, and you need many red herrings to help with the surprise twist at the end.

----------


## SharkSandwich

> Didn't they say that they hadn't even finished building out the new tower yet? How can it already be full when they've said themselves that they weren't going to fill it up? I'd say check the sources.
> 
> 3 years is a overblown estimate as well. If you're talking building a new building, yes. But you can get office space converted from a precious tenant, even if you gut it, in a few months.


Well, the tower just got a little "fuller" today, Bomber...

Devon Energy Announces Consolidation of U.S. E&P Operations
October 11, 2012 8:00 AM ET

Devon Energy Corporation DVN today announced plans to consolidate its U.S. personnel into a single operations group centrally located at the company’s corporate headquarters in Oklahoma City. As a result, Devon will close its office in Houston and transfer operational responsibilities for assets in South Texas, East Texas and Louisiana to Oklahoma City. The company expects to relocate a number of employees from Houston to Oklahoma City. The completion of this initiative is expected to be substantially complete by the end of the first-quarter 2013.

“Consolidating our U.S. operations will improve our ability to quickly shift the focus of our workforce between project areas as economic conditions dictate,” said Dave Hager, Devon’s executive vice president of exploration and production. “In addition, this move will improve the sharing of best practices and enhance overall operational efficiency.”

Devon expects the announced changes to deliver savings of approximately $80 million annually. The cost reductions will materialize through both lower general and administrative expenses and reduced capitalized personnel costs.

Reorganization charges are expected to approximate $125 million, with $100 million estimated to be incurred in the fourth-quarter 2012. The remaining costs will be incurred in the first half of 2013. In aggregate, roughly 20 percent of the total restructuring charges are non-cash.

Devon Energy Corporation is an Oklahoma City-based independent energy company engaged in oil and gas exploration and production. Devon is a leading U.S.-based independent oil and gas producer and is included in the S&P 500 Index. For additional information, visit Devon Energy.

----------


## Bellaboo

Now this is pretty big news..................I wonder how many workers would transfer ?

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## jn1780

> Interesting:
> 
> Devon Energy Tower (Houston)
> 
> Devon Energy Tower (Houston) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I wonder how many floors of this tower is for Devon?

 You would think that even after finding synergies this new group would still use a few floors of the new tower just by themselves.

----------


## Just the facts

My guess would be that space for these employees was already considered when the new building was constructed.  They just had to wait until it was done to make the announcement.

----------


## HangryHippo

This is excellent news.  Glad to see jobs coming here from Houston.  Devon continues to impress.

And now all we need is a post from Rover extolling Larry Nichols!  (I kid, I kid!!)

----------


## Pete

Yes, HUGE news!

According to the last report from the OKC Economic Development Trust, Continental Resources -- who's move to OKC brought massive amounts of attention -- has just over 400 employees in town.

This is equivalent to that and keep in mind that these energy jobs customarily average into six figure salaries.


Devon must be looking at building more space.  I don't think there is any way they could fit hundreds more into their tower, which means they will be back leasing at one or more downtown buildings.  AND there isn't much space available outside FNC.

----------


## dankrutka

> And now all we need is a post from Rover extolling Larry Nichols!  (I kid, I kid!!)


Lol. Well , this would be an appropriate time for praise. Great news!

----------


## Pete

From what I have been able to research, Devon had taken at least 424,000 square feet in the Houston building, also known as Two Allen Center.

That is well more than in what is now the Continental Resources building, and close to the amount of space they had been leasing outside their old building before they built the new one.  (They had been leasing about 500,000 s.f. in several buildings around downtown).

----------


## Pete

> Didn't they say that they hadn't even finished building out the new tower yet? How can it already be full when they've said themselves that they weren't going to fill it up? I'd say check the sources.
> 
> 3 years is a overblown estimate as well. If you're talking building a new building, yes. But you can get office space converted from a precious tenant, even if you gut it, in a few months.


They were saying that even when all the floors are open, they will be largely full.  They still are moving people over from other buildings.

And yes, I was talking about them constructing a new building, since they have demonstrated they would much rather build than rent and it seems they have an interest in property directly west of their existing campus (the infamous Preftakes block).

I fully understand how long it takes to get rental space ready; I was a commercial real estate broker in OKC for seven years.  I still see that as a short-term solution and one they would probably like to avoid.  If they have the need for a lot more space, I'm sure they are already looking into possible construction options.

----------


## BDP

Wow, if even just half those jobs still exist after consolidation to OKC, that's still pretty significant, given that these people usually make pretty decent salaries.

----------


## adaniel

FWIW, Devon has about 617 employees in their office downtown.

http://downtownhouston.org/site_medi..._2012-6-28.pdf

From what it sounds like, their Houston ops will become a glorified field office, so they will probably keep about 50-70 employees there. So we are talking about a move of 550+ high paying jobs. Bigger than Continental. This is great news for OKC. 

I wonder if this is what was behind the secretive OKC economic trust meetings?

----------


## Pete

You also know Devon must have been working on this for some time, with a specific plan of where all these people are going to go.

Perhaps they will go into the FNC space they recently renovated and would be otherwise completely vacating?

But I'm beginning to believe they have also been working on plans for a significant new building on the Preftakes block.  We had heard strong rumors of a 40-story building there, and maybe this news could kick that off.


Remember also that Devon has their big grand opening of the entire Devon Energy Center on Oct. 24.  That will signal the completion of almost all the work, the formal opening of Vast, etc.

Perhaps the timing of this announced move will dovetail into that celebration, along with another announcement?

----------


## Bellaboo

40 floors would be almost 700 ft tall, wouldn't that be something...

If it was at the old Carpenter Square location, they could skylink it with the West Garden wing.

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## GoThunder

Also, assuming that the building would be located at Sheridan & Hudson (pure speculation), our skyline would be expanded west, tying in MBG even more than the Devon tower has already.

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## jn1780

> From what I have been able to research, Devon had taken at least 424,000 square feet in the Houston building, also known as Two Allen Center.
> 
> That is well more than in what is now the Continental Resources building, and close to the amount of space they had been leasing outside their old building before they built the new one.  (They had been leasing about 500,000 s.f. in several buildings around downtown).


Its funny how that some of the office space Devon just left will be occupied by Devon again.

----------


## jedicurt

and after all the talk during construction of the current tower about how it looked like Lord Surons tower, this would then bring on the Two Towers of Devon...

----------


## Pete

We had also heard that Devon wanted to build a health clinic west of their campus, so perhaps that would be part of a large tower.

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## Praedura

The plot thickens...

 :Whisper: 

I tell ya, these are exciting times for this town.

----------


## Bellaboo

Also, one of Steve's tips as to where development was to happen is where the city locates any new parking structures. 

Guess what....

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## hoya

It's staggering to think that one company could cause our city's skyline to grow as much as it has.  Honestly when people kept saying Devon was going to build another tower, I just shook my head.  Now I am starting to believe they will.

So if Devon builds a 40 story, Sandridge builds a 20 story, Midfirst builds, we build a convention hotel, we'd be looking at 4 new towers in the next 5 to 10 years?  That's not bad at all.  This city would be booming.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> It's staggering to think that one company could cause our city's skyline to grow as much as it has.  Honestly when people kept saying Devon was going to build another tower, I just shook my head.  Now I am starting to believe they will.
> 
> So if Devon builds a 40 story, Sandridge builds a 20 story, Midfirst builds, we build a convention hotel, we'd be looking at 4 new towers in the next 5 to 10 years?  That's not bad at all.  This city would be booming.


Continental will almost certainly build a tower in the next 10 years

----------


## hoya

Didn't want to over-reach.  I think the more important issue might be Devon moving their employees here.  Companies like to be near other companies of the same type.  It makes it easier to hire people if you're in a city that has a lot of people trained for whatever it is you do.  Bob leaves Initech to go work at Globotron, doing the same type of job.  Devon is making a show of faith that OKC is going to be a huge energy city.  Them moving all their operations here may be the beginning of a trend.  Other companies might (again, might) follow Devon's lead.  I think it's too soon to predict that we'll see a bunch of companies moving here from Houston, but if we did this would be the first sign.

----------


## BDP

> I think it's too soon to predict that we'll see a bunch of companies moving here from Houston, but if we did this would be the first sign.


I would not expect a trend of Houston energy companies moving here, but I could see a trend start where smaller companies in smaller markets move in. It would upgrade their competitiveness for human resources and give them the market synergy you mentioned, while being a much less daunting and less expensive move than going to a market like Houston. Oklahoma City's low operating costs may actually start to matter now than it can actually provide improved quality of life over some markets.

----------


## Pete

You can see how OKC is starting to present a pretty good alternative to Houston for energy companies.

Houston is a massive, sprawling city with terrible traffic.  Yes, it's a big city with all the associated amenities, but the average employee is much more concerned about ease and cost of living.  And for the employer, cost of space and salaries are significantly lower.

As much as we gripe about sprawl in OKC, you simply can't fathom having to commute from a good public school system to the middle of a city like Houston or Los Angeles.  I live in L.A. and I can assure you traffic takes about 2 hours of your day, no matter what you do.

In OKC, even if you decide to live in Edmond, you are no more than 30 minutes from pulling into your downtown parking garage.  Same for Norman, Yukon, Choctaw, etc.  And of course, there are lots of good and affordable options much closer than that.

With the significant critical mass of energy businesses in the Metro, I could see some Houston companies starting to strongly consider the OKC option.

----------


## adaniel

^
Good stuff. 

I did an internship in Houston for a major O&G company while still in college during the summer of 2007. I'm grateful for the experience but that town is not for me. Hideous sprawl, terrible weather (including FLOODING) and the traffic! The definition of hell is the West Loop (I-610) at 5:30. I thought I was being whiny at first, but I was quite surprised to hear native Houstonians I worked with bemoan the deterioration of the quality of life there.  

With that in mind, I wouldn't expect a flood of companies to bail on Houston for QOL issues. Instead, the shift in E&P activity from the Gulf of Mexico (which was being billed as the future savior of American energy until Katrina and BP) to inland shale plays has allowed oil companies to give cities like OKC a second look. I don't expect Chevron or Exxon to as so much create a field office here, but the Noble's, Apache's and XTO's of the world will fit in nicely here. 

If we can get our air service to improve (flights to NYC area especially) we could really make a run.

----------


## Praedura

> I would not expect a trend of Houston energy companies moving here, but I could see a trend start where smaller companies in smaller markets move in. It would upgrade their competitiveness for human resources and give them the market synergy you mentioned, while being a much less daunting and less expensive move than going to a market like Houston. Oklahoma City's low operating costs may actually start to matter now than it can actually provide improved quality of life over some markets.


That's an interesting idea, BDP, about smaller companies. I'm trying to find some energy companies that might fit the bill. 
A quick search yields these names:

Scandrill Inc.  - Employment - Scandrill Inc, Drilling Contractor, Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas
Performance Drilling - Performance Drilling :: Contact Us
Big E Drilling Co. - http://www.bigedrilling.com/bige/about.html
Aquila Drilling Co. - Aquila Drilling
Energy Drilling Company - Energy Drilling Company
Cypress Drilling - Cypress Drilling-Company

Could any of these be potential candidates for a relocation to OKC? Or possibly others can come up with some better suggestions.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> FWIW, Devon has about 617 employees in their office downtown.
> 
> http://downtownhouston.org/site_medi..._2012-6-28.pdf
> 
> From what it sounds like, their Houston ops will become a glorified field office, so they will probably keep about 50-70 employees there. So we are talking about a move of 550+ high paying jobs. Bigger than Continental. This is great news for OKC.


Don't get too far ahead of yourself. First of all not all of those jobs are moving here. They are not going to duplicate administrative people, so there go several dozen to maybe a hundred people right off the top. Then you have to consider that much of Devon'd Houston office is made up of Houston lifers who came to Devon from various acquisitions (PennzEnergy, Ocean, etc.). These people have lives in Houston and may not be keen on leaving, expecially considering how hot the labor market is for skilled technical people in the oil and gas industry (Engineers especially, but also geologists and geophysicists). Many of the high-salary types will opt to stay in Houston, take a package and find work with another Houston company. Devon will need to recruit workers to do the work of all the people who do not make the move, but this process will take much longer than many probably think, especially when you consider the above-mentioned shortage of skilled technical people in the industry. So yes, with this move Devon is committing to adding substantially to the OKC workforce, but it is not going to happen overnight, as many Houston employees will walk away from Devon rather than move to OKC.

----------


## SharkSandwich

I know several people in the energy industry who reluctantly moved from Houston to OKC that now say they would NEVER go back to Houston because the quality of family life is so much better here.

----------


## Pete

> Don't get too far ahead of yourself. First of all not all of those jobs are moving here. They are not going to duplicate administrative people, so there go several dozen to maybe a hundred people right off the top. Then you have to consider that much of Devon'd Houston office is made up of Houston lifers who came to Devon from various acquisitions (PennzEnergy, Ocean, etc.). These people have lives in Houston and may not be keen on leaving, expecially considering how hot the labor market is for skilled technical people in the oil and gas industry (Engineers especially, but also geologists and geophysicists). Many of the high-salary types will opt to stay in Houston, take a package and find work with another Houston company. Devon will need to recruit workers to do the work of all the people who do not make the move, but this process will take much longer than many probably think, especially when you consider the above-mentioned shortage of skilled technical people in the industry. So yes, with this move Devon is committing to adding substantially to the OKC workforce, but it is not going to happen overnight, as many Houston employees will walk away from Devon rather than move to OKC.



Thanks for the insight; sounds like you have a good handle on what is going on and what is about to transpire.

Welcome to the board and please post more.

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## DoctorTaco

> I know several people in the energy industry who reluctantly moved from Houston to OKC that now say they would NEVER go back to Houston because the quality of family life is so much better here.


I don't disagree. But put yourself in this position: You've lived in Houston ~20 years. You own a home. Your kids are in high school. You have friends, a church, etc. Your phone has been ringing off the hook today from headhunters once news broke about Devon closing their Houston office. You think you'd be interested in moving?

My sense from talking to people at Devon is that everyone within the company saw this coming a mile away. If you worked at Devon and were interested in leaving Houston you probably already did, in anticipation of this closure.

----------


## Pete

DoctorTaco, do you have a feel for how full Devon Tower is at the present?

----------


## Lafferty Daniel

> I don't disagree. But put yourself in this position: You've lived in Houston ~20 years. You own a home. Your kids are in high school. You have friends, a church, etc. Your phone has been ringing off the hook today from headhunters once news broke about Devon closing their Houston office. You think you'd be interested in moving?
> 
> My sense from talking to people at Devon is that everyone within the company saw this coming a mile away. *If you worked at Devon and were interested in leaving Houston you probably already did, in anticipation of this closure*.


This part confuses me. If someone worked at Devon, wanted to leave Houston, and saw this coming a mile away, why would they have already left? They would stick around so that they could get a free move and still be able to keep their job.

----------


## Debzkidz

> I know several people in the energy industry who reluctantly moved from Houston to OKC that now say they would NEVER go back to Houston because the quality of family life is so much better here.


This is my family exactly. However, we moved here by choice. But when we told our friends and family in Houston that we were moving here, you would have thought we had just told them we were moving to the outback or something. They looked at us like we were insane. No one, I repeat no one we told thought we were smart or doing a good thing. 

My brother in law lives in Houston and had a chance to move here a few years ago. His wife, a native Houstonian, wouldn't hear of it. Now mind you, she'd never been here. In her mind, Houston is the only place worth living. When she actually came to visit us last year for the first time since we moved here over 6 years ago, she was absolutely shocked at how nice it was. It was almost like she was surprised that we had freeways, stores she'd heard of and real restaurants. She actually asked me "do they have a museum here?" "Um, yeah. Actually more than one." Unfortunately, too many of those people there, are just like her.

----------


## soondoc

I absolutely agree with the poster that said we need to upgrade our flights.  We have made so many improvements to the downtown area as well as other areas in OKC.  What MUST happen if we want to be taken seriously by companies to relocate here is to make huge improvements and expansion of our airport.  It is nice but very minor league and it is the first impression people see when they come here.  We need to have another terminal with many more flights to more cities.  Until this is done we will never be a major player but only fight for scraps and get companies from time to time.  How and who do we need to contact to try and beg our leaders to consider this.  If we could just become a smaller hub that would be great.  I could then see business and our skyline growing more than ever.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Unfortunately, too many of those people there, are just like her.


 You'd be surprised (or maybe not, now) how many people are/were ingorant of OKC.  Having been in the military for over 20 years and moving around, I've met plenty of people that really just never had the inclination to check out OKC in sincerity. A builder near St. Louis thought Tulsa had maybe 75,000 people (in 1994) for instance.
The Thunder are doing wonders for OKC, in this respect.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> This part confuses me. If someone worked at Devon, wanted to leave Houston, and saw this coming a mile away, why would they have already left? They would stick around so that they could get a free move and still be able to keep their job.


You are totally right. The way I phrased that sentence I can see why it made no sense.

----------


## SharkSandwich

Heard a rumor that 40% of the 500-600 Devon employees in Houston will be offered positions in OKC.

----------


## soonerguru

> Heard a rumor that 40% of the 500-600 Devon employees in Houston will be offered positions in OKC.


Houston is a total ****ehole. It sucks compared to virtually every other big city. It has all of the problems of big city living with fewer amenities, terrible weather, ungodly sprawl, unconscionably bad traffic, etc. 

OKC has improved itself in the amenities group -- and needs to do more -- but has a better overall quality of life.

----------


## 1972ford

> Don't get too far ahead of yourself. First of all not all of those jobs are moving here. They are not going to duplicate administrative people, so there go several dozen to maybe a hundred people right off the top. Then you have to consider that much of Devon'd Houston office is made up of Houston lifers who came to Devon from various acquisitions (PennzEnergy, Ocean, etc.). These people have lives in Houston and may not be keen on leaving, expecially considering how hot the labor market is for skilled technical people in the oil and gas industry (Engineers especially, but also geologists and geophysicists). Many of the high-salary types will opt to stay in Houston, take a package and find work with another Houston company. Devon will need to recruworkers to do the work of all the people who do notmake the move, but this process will take much longer than many probably think, especially when you consider the above-mentioned shortage of skilled technical people in the industry. So yes, with this move Devon is committing to adding substantially to the OKC workforce, but it is not going to happen overnight, as many Houston employees will walk away from Devon rather than move to OKC.



The people that decide to stay in Huston could theoretically be replaced by people losing jobs at cheasapeake or cheasapeake employees fearful of cheasapeakes future.  Taking a job at Devon would provide a sure placement in Okc for the long haul

----------


## dankrutka

It gets a little annoying when people on here just bash on other cities with anecdotal evidence (e.g., even my friend that lives there hates it!) specifically because OKC has a glass ceiling right now because of uninformed people saying similar things about OKC. Constructive and measured criticism is fine. But growing up in Oklahoma I learned of the silly stereotypes that others hold against the state and I decided long ago that I wasn't going to participate in bashing other places the way a lot of people bash OKC. I've been to Houston and enjoyed it. End of rant.

----------


## ljbab728

> I absolutely agree with the poster that said we need to upgrade our flights.  We have made so many improvements to the downtown area as well as other areas in OKC.  What MUST happen if we want to be taken seriously by companies to relocate here is to make huge improvements and expansion of our airport.  It is nice but very minor league and it is the first impression people see when they come here.  We need to have another terminal with many more flights to more cities.  Until this is done we will never be a major player but only fight for scraps and get companies from time to time.  How and who do we need to contact to try and beg our leaders to consider this.  If we could just become a smaller hub that would be great.  I could then see business and our skyline growing more than ever.


Keep in mind that the city has little influence over the airlines in deciding about flights.  They look after their bottom line first.  The airport has expansion plans in place but the airlines have to be in place before that can happen.  We currently have more terminal space than will be needed in the near future.  There is absolutely no need for an additional terminal.

----------


## Thundercitizen

The Airport Trust had an expansion plan in place at least 7 years ago that included a mirror image terminal just to the south of the existing one and an additional runway along with runway extensions for others.  
They are prepared for whatever contingency/funds may come their way for various increments of construction.

----------


## bombermwc

I, for one, wish they would put in the other terminal. Even if it doesnt have a full load on the gates, it would be nice to have the extra space there. The current terminal can get a little busy/full and could use a good scrubbing. There is so much activity squeezed in on the one end, it would just be nice to spread it out. 

We're spoiled with our airport though, so i take this with a grain of salt. It's not like we're talking about O'Hare busy, we're talking OKC busy. I wouldn't trade my airport for the world though. It's so stinking quick!!!!! 

I was at the NOLA airport this year and it's probably twice the size of OKC's. But the place was so empty. And what's odd is, they're still adding to it. I think they're actually working on getting everything behind security so you dont have to leave and come back in, but it was weird seeing so many gates emtpy. To counter that in OKC, i'd like to see an every other gate approach. Not being in the airlines, i don't know if that makes things logistically stupid though.

----------


## Bellaboo

We have an airport thread over in transportation...Thanks

----------


## metro

> I absolutely agree with the poster that said we need to upgrade our flights.  We have made so many improvements to the downtown area as well as other areas in OKC.  What MUST happen if we want to be taken seriously by companies to relocate here is to make huge improvements and expansion of our airport.  It is nice but very minor league and it is the first impression people see when they come here.  We need to have another terminal with many more flights to more cities.  Until this is done we will never be a major player but only fight for scraps and get companies from time to time.  How and who do we need to contact to try and beg our leaders to consider this.  If we could just become a smaller hub that would be great.  I could then see business and our skyline growing more than ever.


Last I checked this is a supply vs. demand issue, not a buy flights with tax money and they will come issue

----------


## soonermike81

> With that in mind, I wouldn't expect a flood of companies to bail on Houston for QOL issues. Instead, the shift in E&P activity from the Gulf of Mexico (which was being billed as the future savior of American energy until Katrina and BP) to inland shale plays has allowed oil companies to give cities like OKC a second look. I don't expect Chevron or Exxon to as so much create a field office here, but the Noble's, Apache's and XTO's of the world will fit in nicely here.


Not sure about Noble or Apache, but XTO (subsidiary of Exxon) actually already has a divisonal office here. I think they have about 90 employees in the Oklahoma Tower.

----------


## jbrown84

I honestly think OKC's airport is the nicest I've been in. Just because it's small doesn't mean it leaves a bad first impression.

But to stay on topic, it's great to see Devon pulling out of Houston. That will relieve any concerns that they might go the opposite direction.

----------


## CaptDave

I agree - have people forgotten what WRWA was like before the rebuild? THAT was a horrible airport. I think they did a nice job with the remodel. 

But yes, glad to have those new OKC Devon employees using WRWA flying _out_ to visit Houston rather than the other way around.

----------


## Teo9969

> Something like this?


Bump from February...to give perspective and help visualization.

To me, it seems like the skyline needs something upward of 30 stories on the north side of Robert S. Kerr Right against the street and somewhere between the NE corner @ Harvey and NW corner @ Hudson. It would fill the massive hole between City Place and SR from an Eastern perspective and would help extend the skyline to the west

----------


## hoya

I was walking yesterday and trying to visualize where certain things could go.  Carpenter Square could have a tower, and another could go behind the city offices on main, right where the old bus station is.  There's a huge amount of empty space behind those offices and a building with a similar footprint of Devon could fit easily.  If you replace Stage Center you could have another Devon-sized building there.  You could have 3 buildings right in the same area that would really add to the appearance of downtown.

It makes me wonder, because the historical buildings on that block pretty much prevent whatever replaces Carpenter Square from being connected to whatever replaces the bus station.  If Devon is behind those acquisitions, they've probably got a plan for each location.  Then we hear that another group is interested in the Stage Center region, and so there's potential for three _somethings_ to get built in that area.

----------


## Spartan

> I was walking yesterday and trying to visualize where certain things could go.  Carpenter Square could have a tower, and another could go behind the city offices on main, right where the old bus station is.  There's a huge amount of empty space behind those offices and a building with a similar footprint of Devon could fit easily.  If you replace Stage Center you could have another Devon-sized building there.  You could have 3 buildings right in the same area that would really add to the appearance of downtown.
> 
> It makes me wonder, because the historical buildings on that block pretty much prevent whatever replaces Carpenter Square from being connected to whatever replaces the bus station.  If Devon is behind those acquisitions, they've probably got a plan for each location.  Then we hear that another group is interested in the Stage Center region, and so there's potential for three _somethings_ to get built in that area.


We need to make sure the entire Stage Center block doesn't become one building...that would be a mistake

----------


## tucy

> DoctorTaco, do you have a feel for how full Devon Tower is at the present?


I spoke with a person in the know at Devon last week and was told that, especially with the consolidation of the Houston operation, the tower is pretty much full.  In fact, they are going to start using some space in Oklahoma Tower (IIRC) for re-stacking.

----------


## Pete

> I spoke with a person in the know at Devon last week and was told that, especially with the consolidation of the Houston operation, the tower is pretty much full.  In fact, they are going to start using some space in Oklahoma Tower (IIRC) for re-stacking.


Thanks for the info.

I'm more and more convinced Devon is and has been working on plans for a new tower.  Way too much smoke now for this not to be true.

It also sounds like they'll need to get going on this soon.

----------


## Spartan

> Thanks for the info.
> 
> I'm more and more convinced Devon is and has been working on plans for a new tower.  Way too much smoke now for this not to be true.
> 
> It also sounds like they'll need to get going on this soon.


Where is Steve on this? I've watched this rumor gain a lot of steam in the last 2 weeks or so? It sounds much more significant than just an employee health center.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Where is Steve on this? I've watched this rumor gain a lot of steam in the last 2 weeks or so? It sounds much more significant than just an employee health center.


Perhaps his silence infers that an announcement is imminent, so he waits just a little longer to drop some tangible knowledge on us.

----------


## Bellaboo

I believe the grand opening ceremony for the world HQ is next week. I'd be shocked if anything came out official until after the ceremony.....

----------


## Pete

From a journalistic perspective, there isn't really anything to report.

Steve has heard all the same rumors and is drawing inferences but that's not a newspaper story.  Same with the Journal Record.


We all thought something was going to break earlier in the year and that didn't happen (I believe primarily due to American Fidelity's late audible on the OPUBCO properties) so you really have to wait until there are more specifics.

But as message board fanboys, we don't have to wait...  It's our job to speculate!   :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

> But as message board fanboys, we don't have to wait...  It's our job to speculate!


And I want you to know, I take that job seriously.
 :Wink:

----------


## Pete

All kidding aside, the collective knowledge of this on-line community is pretty powerful as long as you learn to cut through the crap, recognize when people really know something, then piece it all together using logic and common sense.

Really, we've been out in front of every major real estate story for some time now.  I don't mean in the we-make-hundreds-of-wild-claims-and-a-few-come-true vein.  I mean that when we start to assemble multiple pieces of what seems to be real information, then pair that with good discussion that brings even more people into the dialog (often, just behind the scenes PM's) we have always been right.

I wish I could say more, but you would all be simply amazed by who frequents this site.  And human nature being what it is, people want to tell SOMEBODY what they know and once engaged, we get the benefit of lots of people who really *know*.

----------


## Jesseda

> And I want you to know, I take that job seriously.


Wonder what next week will bring. hopefully something exciting. I have a  feeling that we are going to be getting a couple tall  :Smile:  buildings that will be announced soon. Fingers crossed.

----------


## Praedura

> I wish I could say more, but you would all be simply amazed by who frequents this site...


Yeah, I've always wondered what Mick Cornett's online name is here.
 :Wink:

----------


## Spartan

> Yeah, I've always wondered what Mick Cornett's online name is here.


What if it's popsy or "one of the trolls" ...  :LolLolLolLol:

----------


## catch22

Look no further than my signature! That's a decoy so no one will know it's I!

----------


## betts

> I wish I could say more, but you would all be simply amazed by who frequents this site.  And human nature being what it is, people want to tell SOMEBODY what they know and once engaged, we get the benefit of lots of people who really *know*.


Yes.  I walked by Le Cep today - which unfortunately still hasn't opened - and I noticed they'd taken down the maligned iron work on the walls.  I don't know if they got the idea here, but it wouldn't surprise me.  At least it looks less like a tapas bar at this point.

----------


## dankrutka

> All kidding aside, the collective knowledge of this on-line community is pretty powerful as long as you learn to cut through the crap, recognize when people really know something, then piece it all together using logic and common sense.


I honestly believe this board has had a tremendous impact in putting pressure on OKC decision-makers while also providing a source for ideas. If you want OKC to be a better city this board is a great place to start. Props to Pete.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Wonder what next week will bring. hopefully something exciting. I have a  feeling that we are going to be getting a couple tall  buildings that will be announced soon. Fingers crossed.


I bet there was some 30 year olds in the early 80s that got together, in person, and drempt up ideas like this too.  I'm not gonna let the joy swirl until I see an article ;-)

----------


## Pete

> I bet there was some 30 year olds in the early 80s that got together, in person, and drempt up ideas like this too.  I'm not gonna let the joy swirl until I see an article ;-)


I was one of them, although I was only in my early 20's.

Before I even graduated college, I went into the shiny-new One Galleria Building to personally view the model of that entire project, which included a 50-story building where the Norrick Library now sits, as well as an enclosed mall where there is now structured parking.  I remember how exciting that all was and the leasing agents were very nice to me.

I was also a commercial real estate broker from '82-'89 and watched Leadership Square and Two Galleria (now Oklahoma Tower) from inception to move-in.  In fact, my company was the first to move into Leadership Square.


Even for those in the RE business, information was much, much harder to come by.

----------


## Pete

In today's on-line chat, Steve mentioned he would have an article in Sunday's Oklahoman touching on the future of the skyline.

I know one subject will be the infamous Preftakes block, Stage Center, etc.

I wouldn't expect a lot of specifics but probably some interesting information about where all this may be headed.

----------


## CaptDave

Steve was being rather coy - as usual.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I hope something is announced that is on the same level as the Devon announcement three years ago.

----------


## G.Walker

> In today's on-line chat, Steve mentioned he would have an article in Sunday's Oklahoman touching on the future of the skyline.
> 
> I know one subject will be the infamous Preftakes block, Stage Center, etc.
> 
> I wouldn't expect a lot of specifics but probably some interesting information about where all this may be headed.


I hope its not another skyline speculation article like he did back in February Downtown Oklahoma City skyline is set for more growth | NewsOK.com, touching on what MIGHT be in store for the skyline, we already know about this information. I am hoping he comes with something a little more solid this time. But with the article being saved for the Business section of the Sunday Oklahoman, means its an featured/important article, so we just have to wait and read...

----------


## metro

> I hope its not another skyline speculation article like he did back in February Downtown Oklahoma City skyline is set for more growth | NewsOK.com, touching on what MIGHT be in store for the skyline, we already know about this information. I am hoping he comes with something a little more solid this time. But with the article being saved for the Business section of the Sunday Oklahoman, means its an featured/important article, so we just have to wait and read...


This, unless he announces more than we figure out here on our own in OKCTalk, it's not worth the read.

----------


## 1972ford

Watch Devon buy the first national building

----------


## skanaly

^They would clean it up sooo nice

----------


## CaptDave

> Watch Devon buy the first national building


With their track record of supporting OKC, I would not be surprised in the least. They would probably be better than 95% of any other possible buyer. Their facilities are certainly top tier and there is no reason to doubt they would not do a fantastic job with FNC.

----------


## ljbab728

> Anyone else staying up late tonight wearing out their refresh button trying to see Steve's article as soon as it is published?


Of couse not, Sid.  You're the only one.  LOL

----------


## betts

> Anyone else staying up late tonight wearing out their refresh button trying to see Steve's article as soon as it is published?


I was definitely thinking about it.

----------


## plmccordj

I am

----------


## Bellaboo

> I am


I thought about running to walmart to check out the business section in the early edition.....

----------


## catch22

It's like waiting for Christmas as a child! Hurry 12:00!! (Or 11:35 like most nights it updates!)

----------


## catch22

Oklahoma City's downtown skyline is set for more growth | NewsOK.com

----------


## ljbab728

Oklahoma City's downtown skyline is set for more growth | NewsOK.com

LOL, we have a tie.

----------


## catch22

Up to 3 new buildings? Devon Chesapeake and Sandridge?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Up to 3 new buildings? Devon Chesapeake and Sandridge?


Up to 3 new headquarters. I think these will be related energy companies, but I just don't see Chesapeake moving considering their situation.

And it was an affiliate of SandRidge who bought the OPUBCO property......

----------


## ljbab728

> Up to 3 new headquarters. I think these will be related energy companies, but I just don't see Chesapeake moving considering their situation.
> 
> And it was an affiliate of SandRidge who bought the OPUBCO property......


I agree.  This has nothing to do with Chesapeake.

----------


## catch22

I bet Midfirst is still in the deck somewhere. They are tied in very closely with the OKC power players.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I bet Midfirst is still in the deck somewhere. They are tied in very closely with the OKC power players.


I'd guess MidFirst, OG&E and Continental. And Devon may be doing something on the Preftakes block.

----------


## Steve

> Up to 3 new headquarters. I think these will be related energy companies, but I just don't see Chesapeake moving considering their situation.
> 
> And it was an affiliate of SandRidge who bought the OPUBCO property......


Read the story twice. If you read the story carefully, you will realize there is more in that story, between the lines, than you might realize... I've been saying for a while that we're likely looking at multiple towers....  I'm really not trying to be coy. I'm delivering as much accurate information as I can. My challenge is I can't get into speculation with these stories. And there are A LOT of moving pieces at play here. American Fidelity was indeed once serious about moving downtown. That changed when the OPUBCO property was bought. Keep in mind American Fidelity wasn't the only company that sought to buy the OPUBCO property. Again, I emphasize, there is are a lot of moving pieces at play. If I were to name names, there would be just too much risk that something would change (as it did with American Fidelity) and then people would be questioning my credibility.

----------


## ljbab728

> If I were to name names, there would be just too much risk that something would change (as it did with American Fidelity) and then people would be questioning my credibility.


Steve, that's not possible.  No one here would ever question your credibility.  LOL

----------


## Bellaboo

> Read the story twice. If you read the story carefully, you will realize there is more in that story, between the lines, than you might realize... I've been saying for a while that we're likely looking at multiple towers....  I'm really not trying to be coy. I'm delivering as much accurate information as I can. My challenge is I can't get into speculation with these stories. And there are A LOT of moving pieces at play here. American Fidelity was indeed once serious about moving downtown. That changed when the OPUBCO property was bought. Keep in mind American Fidelity wasn't the only company that sought to buy the OPUBCO property. Again, I emphasize, there is are a lot of moving pieces at play. If I were to name names, there would be just too much risk that something would change (as it did with American Fidelity) and then people would be questioning my credibility.


I guess Chesapeake could be considered an affiliate of SandRidge, at least they had common ownership. I'll go read it again. Also, could OPUBCO be moving back after being absent 22 years ?

----------


## ljbab728

Even if OPUBCO was moving back downtown there is no possibility that they would need enough space to consider a new tower.

----------


## Bellaboo

I read it again, and the only thing I saw between the lines is that Devon is holding space for affiliates in Corporate Tower. Maybe Devon would build another tower for these affiliates    ?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Read the story twice. If you read the story carefully, you will realize there is more in that story, between the lines, than you might realize... I've been saying for a while that we're likely looking at multiple towers....  I'm really not trying to be coy. I'm delivering as much accurate information as I can. My challenge is I can't get into speculation with these stories. And there are A LOT of moving pieces at play here. American Fidelity was indeed once serious about moving downtown. That changed when the OPUBCO property was bought. *Keep in mind American Fidelity wasn't the only company that sought to buy the OPUBCO property*. Again, I emphasize, there is are a lot of moving pieces at play. If I were to name names, there would be just too much risk that something would change (as it did with American Fidelity) and then people would be questioning my credibility.


I think MidFirst also bid on that property.

----------


## 1972ford

I hope to see a Huston or Colorado company move their headquarters here.  Maybe we will.see one of the big hospital build a headquarters but I'm sticking to a 30 to 40 story Devon tower maybe a 20 to 30 story continental anouncement in early 2014 if growth keeps outpacing projections I have been hearing rumors of a mostly residential tower maybe breaking ground in 2015 along with that I hear they are just waiting to see if downtown headquarters keep expanding and adding new names as well.  A developer I know says a lot has to do with cheasapeake waiting to see if it can overcome its cash crunch before an out of state company buys it out.  Guess they have alot to do.with people waiting to put their money into downtown.  We need something downtown outside of oil something big to give investors more confidence in building downtown on a larger scale.midfirst does not count to to its exposure to our oil companies.  Basically they want more diversity in business downtown just as the people want diversity in residential office and commercial downtown.

Hopefully we get out of state companies moving here orout of country would be better having companies move from within the state is not enough.  Oklahoma city has to prove that we can attract those companies and not just the ones based in small towns.

Only time will tell but at least we do know that we have a crapton of midrise hotels going up in the downtown vicinity while we wait


Also elections matter not just the presidential but congress too a lot of people are tired of gridlock on capital hill I think one party or the other grab both the congress and the presidency.  Many just want to see some form of unity on capital 
hill at least then those with money can know what to expect of the government for a couple years

----------


## betts

> Up to 3 new headquarters. I think these will be related energy companies, but I just don't see Chesapeake moving considering their situation.
> 
> And it was an affiliate of SandRidge who bought the OPUBCO property......


So while I said I was told this was purchased by Sandridge to (sadly) build a parking garage, and my information as to the purchaser wasn't 100% accurate, it was close enough that I worry the second half of the info was also correct. As I said then, the source was an excellent one. A parking garage would be a terrible waste of that prime real estate, IMO.

----------


## Just the facts

I don't think Sandridge would create an LLC to build a parking garage considering they just bought a parking garage under the Sandridge name.  That lot is also pretty big and could house multiple structures including a parking garage along the tracks.  It is bigger than their current block which not to long ago had 8 buildings on it.

----------


## betts

> I don't think Sandridge would create an LLC to build a parking garage considering they just bought a parking garage under the Sandridge name.  That lot is also pretty big and could house multiple structures including a parking garage along the tracks.  It is bigger than their current block which not to long ago had 8 buildings on it.


I hope you're right.

----------


## G.Walker

> This, unless he announces more than we figure out here on our own in OKCTalk, it's not worth the read.


Again, just another skyline speculation article, similar to the one in February, nothing solid. We still only know what we knew almost a year ago. The only difference now is that we have 3 mystery towers now instead of 1. Somebody wake me up when this is all over, lol.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I'm glad they're taking the proper time. A lot goes into building skyscrapers and they will stand in place for the life of the city.

----------


## plmccordj

While you could say "We don't know anymore than we did" I think there is one thing that we did learn.  We learned that this 71 page thread has not been a waste of time. We learned that our suspicions and hopes are real.  To me it was a subtle message to us that not only was our thoughts correct but that it could be better than we thought.  I completely understand Steve's reluctance to start throwing out names because to do that would make him lose access to the news makers. If he were to start naming names, he would likely not be invited to those meetings, leaks, etc.  If he were to leak this information with specifics, those involved would deem him as non trustworthy and not tell him anything in the future.  The mere action of writing a second piece, eight months later with his name attached tells me there is substance to our suspicions. He is staking his reputation to this and in that business, I suspect that carries a lot of weight.  Throwing us a bone is good enough for me considering the circumstances.

I am content to know that something is likely coming.  Of course, I would like more information but I also understand the environment where these deals are made.  I know one of the Mayor's of one of the suburbs and have seen how he is entrusted with potential developments and too is unable to tell anyone until the allowed to.  Thank you Steve for keeping us in mind on this story.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> At the start of construction on Devon Energy Center, Kimker was among a few veteran downtown observers who pointed to the experience of Charlotte, N.C., which saw its downtown skyline expand with construction of the Bank of America headquarters in the late 1980s. He questioned three years ago whether the emergence of Devon Energy Center might lead to future growth of downtown Oklahoma City.
> 
> Now, he's more hopeful such growth will occur.
> 
> “The building Hugh McColl (then chairman of North Carolina National Bank) built, now the Bank of America, they told him he could only fill half of it when it was built,” Kimker said. “But he anticipated growth with Bank of America (the eventual successor to North Carolina National Bank). And he anticipated it would jump-start the economy of Charlotte when it was built.”
> 
> Kimker notes that a couple of years later, the downtown Charlotte skyline did grow with the addition of towers built by Wachovia and Duke Energy.
> 
> “So there is precedent for my hope that will be the case here,” Kimker said. “I'm optimistic we'll see some change.”

----------


## G.Walker

I can see how this article would be intriguing to readers not in OKCTALK network, but for us it's like, eh. However, it seems like now we are in the home stretch of all this speculation with solid announcements around the corner.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

If the dice fall perfectly and we get three new headquarters, then possibly a residential highrise, then we could look a lot like the photo of Charlotte. That's not including separate buildings like the convention center building, future Devon buildings, Continental Resources etc.

----------


## Pete

> Gary Pierson, chief executive officer of the Oklahoma Publishing Co., said the company has sold land it owned at NW 4 and E.K. Gaylord to an affiliate of SandRidge Energy. Representatives of SandRidge declined to comment on the purchase.


Looks like at least all the speculation around Midfirst and this property has now been refuted.

But remember, the City still owns the surrounding property and they are not going to sell unless they feel whatever SandRidge has in mind will be a good use for that very key piece of land.

After all, the Chamber of Commerce was ultimately shot down in their attempts to build a low-rise, big-setback building.

----------


## vaflyer

> Looks like at least all the speculation around Midfirst and this property has now been refuted.
> 
> But remember, the City still owns the surrounding property and they are not going to sell unless they feel whatever SandRidge has in mind will be a good use for that very key piece of land.
> 
> After all, the Chamber of Commerce was ultimately shot down in their attempts to build a low-rise, big-setback building.


If SandRidge plans on building on that property to expand their campus, why use the LLC? Maybe it is possible that SandRidge is acting as a middleman for someone else (i.e. Midfirst) on this property just like Chesapeake did for them when SandRidge purchased their current property.  Aren't Jeff Records and Tom Ward (co-owners of the Thunder) old friends? Just a thought (no insider information).

----------


## Pete

> If SandRidge plans on building on that property to expand their campus, why use the LLC? Maybe it is possible that SandRidge is acting as a middleman for someone else (i.e. Midfirst) on this property just like Chesapeake did for them when SandRidge purchased their current property.  Aren't Jeff Records and Tom Ward (co-owners of the Thunder) old friends? Just a thought (no insider information).


I agree that is a possibility and that is also my hope.  Considering SR's big plan for a new building on their own campus is only a mid-rise, I can't imagine they'll need much more space any time soon and if they do build, it would like be something not very tall.

This whole one-company-fronting-for-another has become the norm in OKC and I don't doubt it's due at least in part to this site, which researches and exposes the smallest move.

Just recently we have had:  Chesapeake buying the old KM properties and working a deal to SandRidge; CHK using a multitude of ever-changing  and oddly-named LLC's for their own expansion; a real estate firm holding the old Devon building for Continental; Nick Preftakes obviously holding properties for someone else (most likely Devon); this new LLC formed just for holding the 4th & EKG property in secrecy, etc.

No doubt Tom Ward and Jeff Records know each other well but Midfirst could just as easily acquire this property through their own LLC and have it registered to an attorney.  But then again, if they had, I guess we'd be reading today about the property being sold to one of their subsidiaries since OPUBCO outed SR anyway.


And, I am confident in the information I received that Midfirst had made a bid on the OPUBCO properties on Broadway Extension, but were topped by AF.

We also know CHK continues to expand all around the existing Midfirst/Midland properties which are already completely maxed out with employees.

Something is almost certain to happen with Midfirst.

----------


## Pete

Since Steve can't speculate -- which is to his eternal credit -- I'll be happy to do so.


I still think we are looking at a new building on the Preftakes block (likely Main & Hudson) that will tie in with the Devon complex.  They are going to need the space themselves, may want to provide space for affiliates and vendors, and/or might want to provide ample space for more energy companies in their attempt to build OKC into a legitimate alternative to crazy, traffic-strangled Houston.  That's one.

Something is going to happen at 4th & EKG.  Possibly MidFirst?  I really do believe that MF along with AF were the companies Beffort has been referencing in terms of a new downtown HQ.

We know SandRidge has plans for at least one mid-rise.  We also know there will likely be a convention hotel.

Beyond that, it seems our next big player is Continental.  But it's hard to imagine them announcing a new tower next year, as Beffort said there may be as many as three.  On the other hand, if it takes at least two years (and more like three) for a new building to house employees after ground-breaking, Continental may be planning that far ahead given their projected growth.  You've got to believe they are at least thinking about it.


Ordinarily, you would think in terms of a speculative tower (remember those??) with some sort of anchor tenant in tow.  But virtually none are being built these days and it's hard to imagine that changing in the next year.

----------


## catch22

If all three come to fruition, I am putting money on Devon, MidFirst, and Continental. Devon on Preftakes, Continental on Stage Center, and MidFirst on 4th/EKG.

----------


## SOONER8693

> Again, just another skyline speculation article, similar to the one in February, nothing solid. We still only know what we knew almost a year ago. The only difference now is that we have 3 mystery towers now instead of 1. Somebody wake me up when this is all over, lol.


Bingo.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Photo from 2009 with Duke Energy.

----------


## Pete

BTW, not sure if Belaboo has posted this elsewhere but James Cotter (of Chase / Cotter Tower fame) recently bought a $3.2 million mansion near Lake Arcadia.  Seems like he may be moving his permanent residence from Texas to the Edmond area.

He's always been an investor/buyer and not a developer, but it's still an interesting development.

----------


## Naptown12713

> BTW, not sure if Belaboo has posted this elsewhere but James Cotter (of Chase / Cotter Tower fame) recently bought a $3.2 million mansion near Lake Arcadia.  Seems like he may be moving his permanent residence from Texas to the Edmond area.
> 
> He's always been an investor/buyer and not a developer, but it's still an interesting development.


Hopefully, this will influence him to reinvest in the building that carrys his name.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I think we'll hear something more concrete from all of this after December 21st.  I laugh because I'm sure time will continue on as always, but there are a lot of people that keep this date in the back of their head...

----------


## G.Walker

> If all three come to fruition, I am putting money on Devon, MidFirst, and Continental. Devon on Preftakes, Continental on Stage Center, and MidFirst on 4th/EKG.


You would think if Devon was going to announce a new tower or future expansion it would be Tuesday at their grand opening ceremony, I mean it makes sense, right? Furthermore, isn't it ironic Steve would right such a story so close to Devon's grand opening ceremony? Seems like a lead story to an official announcement from Devon, the article was written in such a way he was practically telling us what companies were building a tower, but not actually telling us.

----------


## Teo9969

Plus he has Beffort upping the ante:




> “I still believe, absolutely, we will see a new building announced,” Beffort said. “It just hasn't happened yet. But there are multiple people looking, and there are opportunities for one, maybe up to three buildings to be announced in 2013.”
> 
> Read more: Oklahoma City's downtown skyline is set for more growth | NewsOK.com


While Beffort doesn't say that one will be announced by the end of the year, if he's making that statement in the context of his previous "before 2012 is over" it seems as if Beffort expects at least one to be announced this year, and maybe one or two more next year.

----------


## Teo9969

> Photo from 2009 with Duke Energy.


Seeing this makes me really appreciate the density of our skyline.

----------


## kevinpate

Maybe it's just me, but if I were deciding announcements from Devon, I wouldn't do anything during a grand opening event of the biggest office structure and multiple great eateries on site that would detract or minimize in any way having the bright spotlight on those awesome accomplishments.

Plenty of time to add a "But Wait! There's more!" presser later this year without redirecting well deserved accolades prematurely.

----------


## G.Walker

> Maybe it's just me, but if I were deciding announcements from Devon, I wouldn't do anything during a grand opening event of the biggest office structure and multiple great eateries on site that would detract or minimize in any way having the bright spotlight on those awesome accomplishments.
> 
> Plenty of time to add a "But Wait! There's more!" presser later this year without redirecting well deserved accolades prematurely.


But how many ceremonies and featured articles can Devon have. They had a groundbreaking ceremony, a topping out ceremony, a moving in ceremony, and now a grand opening ceremony. Not to mention numerous featured articles in The Oklahoman over the past couple years, I think now would be the perfect time for Devon to announce a new tower, letting the public know they are continuing their momentum.

I wouldn't be surprised if they make a soft announcement on Tuesday, nothing with specific details, but just letting the public know they will be expanding next door...

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Seeing this makes me really appreciate the density of our skyline.


 I certainly like the photo. Much more impressive, to me, if there isn't the equivalent of a large pyramid or Borg cube in the middle of the city. This type of development allows the character, for better or worse, of each structure to be seen and enlarges the skyline.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Steve just told me that Devon will be very tight on who gets in for the ceremony. They were even that way with The Oklahoman staff. I took the day off and I'll be down there but I'm not expecting to get in. Just FYI.

----------


## G.Walker

Between Devon announcing moving all Houston operations here, Steve's article, and Devon's ceremony on Tuesday, it's all starting to make sense.

----------


## kevinpate

I have no issue with a GO ceremony that is focused on, well, a grand opening.

In similar fashion I have no issue with later down the road, be that a week, or ten, with the same company taking a RonCo(ish) moment and delivering still more good news to the metro.  Nor with later having a ground break ceremony, a top out ceremony, etc., etc.

And if 3-4 companies end up needing to schedule around each other because they are all building on a similar timeline, I'll be good with that too.  What a neat problem for the local media to have to contend with.

----------


## king183

My source, when I contributed to these rumors at the very beginning, told me a headquarters being built downtown would be that of a financial company, which could have been either Midfirst or AF.  My source was higher up at the OKC Chamber of Commerce at the time (he no longer works there), so I put a lot of weight into his information. I'm just hoping it was Midfirst and not AF's aborted effort. 

I think Pete has guessed best: there's going to be something Devon-related on the Preftakes block and then there will probably be a headquarters built downtown.  I'm guessing the other of the three Beffort is referring to is Sandridge's building.

----------


## Easy180

Thinking the logical choice is MidFirst since their locations are so spread out (I44 & Western, Rockwell & Hefner and Shepherd Mall)...Have video conferencing for sure but it is much more efficient to have your groups within an elevator ride of each other especially in a crisis

----------


## SharkSandwich

I think Stage Center is an important key in all of this.  It is a large piece of real estate that will be easily re-developed after demolition.  Plus, there seems to be a quiet, yet powerful push to get rid of it.  My guess is that it will be the site of one of these new towers.

----------


## ljbab728

> I'm glad they're taking the proper time. A lot goes into building skyscrapers and they will stand in place for the life of the city.


Well, maybe not.  Can anyone say Biltmore Hotel?

----------


## Jim Kyle

And there was another one begun in the mid-30s at Park and Walker, where the library stands today, that got its steel framework up to four stories before the builder went broke. Only the ground floor was ever finished, and for years housed a florist and other retail while the bare skeleton reached into the sky. Not all skyscrapers that are started ever get topped out! Might be an interesting story there for someone to dig up. Steve???

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Hudson and Park? Was this before the YWCA was built?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Doug Dawgz Blog: The Gladish Building -- What?




On the right

----------


## Praedura

Just found this pic from the OKCMOA website:



This is a view from the 41st floor of Devon Tower, taken back in June 2011. So a little bit out-of-date, but not much.

It's interesting comparing the old park in front of the Civic Center to the new one. Nice mature trees back then, but the arrangement is definitely more chaotic -- nowhere as slick as the new layout.

This has a good aerial view of where the new parking garage on Main will go. Another thing I notice is how interesting the OKCMOA building looks from this high vantage point -- like a big Mississippi steamboat. I think it actually looks better from aerial shots than at ground level.

But the main thing that grabs me is the lots immediately to the west and immediately to the north of the museum. These two spots seem to be screaming for some kind of development. Ok, not 700 foot skyscrapers. But something.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Doug Dawgz Blog: The Gladish Building -- What?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the right


Is this the Mystery thread or the History thread?  I'm confused...

----------


## HangryHippo

> Just found this pic from the OKCMOA website:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a view from the 41st floor of Devon Tower, taken back in June 2011. So a little bit out-of-date, but not much.
> 
> It's interesting comparing the old park in front of the Civic Center to the new one. Nice mature trees back then, but the arrangement is definitely more chaotic -- nowhere as slick as the new layout.
> 
> This has a good aerial view of where the new parking garage on Main will go. Another thing I notice is how interesting the OKCMOA building looks from this high vantage point -- like a big Mississippi steamboat. I think it actually looks better from aerial shots than at ground level.
> ...


I understand that the loss of those great, old trees was sad, but I really like the layout of the new park.  I think it really turned out well, and one day, these trees will be old too.  I drove by today and noticed that they're redoing most of the pavers in the park and doing it right, since they hurried to get it finished for the celebration.

----------


## Skyline

The first thing that grabs me is the nice view of "The Legacy".

----------


## HangryHippo

> The first thing that grabs me is the nice view of "The Legacy".


HAHA, that was what I noticed first as well.  That fake, white stucco exterior is truly nauseating.

----------


## Spartan

It's better than most blocks.

----------


## sroberts24

All I are surface lots and potential for major infill!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Just found this pic from the OKCMOA website:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a view from the 41st floor of Devon Tower, taken back in June 2011. So a little bit out-of-date, but not much.
> 
> It's interesting comparing the old park in front of the Civic Center to the new one. Nice mature trees back then, but the arrangement is definitely more chaotic -- nowhere as slick as the new layout.
> 
> This has a good aerial view of where the new parking garage on Main will go. Another thing I notice is how interesting the OKCMOA building looks from this high vantage point -- like a big Mississippi steamboat. I think it actually looks better from aerial shots than at ground level.
> ...


wow there is a lot of parking lots!!!!

----------


## G.Walker

In order to know where we are going, let's take a step back, enjoy:

January 27, 2011: Economic development officials try to lure next big catch to Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

July 17, 2011: Office market thriving in downtown Oklahoma City, observers say | NewsOK.com

July 17, 2011: New public parking cited as downtown challenge | NewsOK.com

February 8, 2012: Downtown Oklahoma City office market shines compared to U.S. | NewsOK.com

February 14, 2012: Downtown Oklahoma City skyline is set for more growth | NewsOK.com

August 10, 2012: Office space is getting tight and tighter in downtown Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

October 21, 2012: Oklahoma City's downtown skyline is set for more growth | NewsOK.com

----------


## OKCisOK4me

July 9, 2020:  Streetcar has been a huge success, Time for Commuter Trains  (sorry, no link available)

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> July 9, 2020:  Streetcar has been a huge success, Time for Commuter Trains  (sorry, no link available)


By 2020 Hopefully, it will be more like the Street Cars huge success leads to the approval of a Light Rail system across the metro  :Wink:

----------


## Steve

> In order to know where we are going, let's take a step back, enjoy:
> 
> January 27, 2011: Economic development officials try to lure next big catch to Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com
> 
> July 17, 2011: Office market thriving in downtown Oklahoma City, observers say | NewsOK.com
> 
> July 17, 2011: New public parking cited as downtown challenge | NewsOK.com
> 
> February 8, 2012: Downtown Oklahoma City office market shines compared to U.S. | NewsOK.com
> ...


Thanks for reading!

----------


## hoya

> Just found this pic from the OKCMOA website:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a view from the 41st floor of Devon Tower, taken back in June 2011. So a little bit out-of-date, but not much.
> 
> It's interesting comparing the old park in front of the Civic Center to the new one. Nice mature trees back then, but the arrangement is definitely more chaotic -- nowhere as slick as the new layout.
> 
> This has a good aerial view of where the new parking garage on Main will go. Another thing I notice is how interesting the OKCMOA building looks from this high vantage point -- like a big Mississippi steamboat. I think it actually looks better from aerial shots than at ground level.
> ...


As much as I love the idea of us getting 3-4 new skyscrapers downtown, what I think we really need are another 50 buildings like the Hightower (very bottom left red brick).  Nice looking buildings with relatively small footprints between 6 and 10 stories tall, to replace all those parking lots.  The biggest barrier to the kind of downtown we all want is all the empty space.  And while 40 story office towers require massive investment by huge companies, I think smaller developments like this are much easier to fund.  There are a lot more entities in this city who can afford to build projects like those.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

It's just a matter of attracting those entities to invest in downtown rather than where they are. What would be the benefits of being downtown rather than say in the suburbs or further out? I'm sure there are folks here who know, but why did all the developments pop up out on NW Expressway rather than downtown? Was it because of the busts in previous decades?

----------


## BDP

> All I are surface lots and potential for major infill!


Yeah, but the reality is that we'll probably see more demolition before anything is ever built on those lots.

----------


## Bellaboo

Back to these Mystery tower(s). I noticed in the January 2011 article that a major International company was being courted. It's been almost 2 years, anyone figure that it might have come and gone ? Or could it still be in the mix as one of the three options ?

----------


## Jim Kyle

> I'm sure there are folks here who know, but why did all the developments pop up out on NW Expressway rather than downtown? Was it because of the busts in previous decades?


I don't know, but my best guess is it was because that was where most of their potential customers (or employees) were, thanks to the federal incentives that encouraged our sprawl. I'm not sure how many of the folk following this thread know it, but in the late 1950s OKC was in an actual, acknowledged, competition with Houston to become the largest city (in land area) in the nation. That was when we extended the city limits into Pottawatomie County, and northwest past Okarche. Every time the lead changed hands, it would be a front-page story (albeit not the lead piece) for The Oklahoman... As residential development followed, retail and office space came right along on its trail.

Not everyone finds the compact urban residential experience to be their cup of tea. When I moved from the Cleveland Neighborhood near Shepherd Mall to my present home 30 years ago, the new location was well out into the boonies, less than a mile from the Canadian County line and just over four miles south of Edmond Road. We chose it specifically to get away from having our neighbors crammed up against our back yard, even though the closest supermarket was more than two miles away, and the only retail closer than that was a small convenience store. We still prefer it to the more compact urban approach, although it would be nice to have a bus stop closer than five miles from the house...

----------


## G.Walker

I asked a co-worker what he thought of Steve's latest article on the possibility of 3 new headquarters being built downtown. He told me that he used to work for ConocoPhillips and that he still has friends who work for ConocoPhillips, and they told him that they heard rumblings in Houston that ConocoPhillips were splitting up and Conoco was moving its headquarters to Oklahoma City, just thought I throw that out there.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I asked a co-worker what he thought of Steve's latest article on the possibility of 3 new headquarters being built downtown. He told me that he used to work for ConocoPhillips and that he still has friends who work for ConocoPhillips, and they told him that they heard rumblings in Houston that ConocoPhillips were splitting up and Conoco was moving its headquarters to Oklahoma City, just thought I throw that out there.


I love these types of rumors :-)

----------


## NWOKCGuy

ConocoPhillips split was official May 1.

----------


## Spartan

I guess no announcement from Devon today.

Amazing how many towers we are tracking right now.

----------


## king183

Awhile ago I said the "rumors" I heard of what mystery corporation was looking to relocate to OKC would make people's jaws drop if it came to fruition.  ConocoPhillips was the corporation I was referring to, or at least one of the split portions of the corporation. I thought it would be announced by now, but the fact that it hasn't makes me wonder if the plans are off or are delayed (or on schedule and I was just led to think it would happen sooner). I know people were skeptical at the time that any part of CP would move from Houston, but my information came directly from someone involved in the talks for relocation, so at the very least the idea is not as absurd as some thought.

----------


## king183

> I assumed that Phillips was perhaps one of the major corps because they were looking for a new home.  But they settled for Houston.
> 
> Phillips 66 plans Westchase headquarters - Houston Chronicle


Yep, very interesting. I know for a fact the Chamber and other important state leaders were in intense negotiations with CP for relocation. At the time I spoke to them, they were very optimistic.  So, who knows?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

We need more merged corporations to divorce each other ;-)

----------


## king183

> Does this Phillips move good or bad then?


I'm not sure since I wasn't told which portion of the company was negotiating to move here.  But on the surface that story doesn't look good since it appears Phillips was definitely moving--and they chose somewhere else.

----------


## G.Walker

My co-worker told me it is Conoco, Inc. wanting to move back to Oklahoma and they never wanted to move to Houston in the first place when they merged, but Phillips pushed relocating to Houston. But it looks like Conoco wants to come back, and I wouldn't be surprises if Devon has their hand in it...

----------


## G.Walker

My co-worker told me it is Conoco, Inc. wanting to move back to Oklahoma and they never wanted to move to Houston in the first place when they merged, but Phillips pushed relocating to Houston. But it looks like Conoco wants to come back, and I wouldn't be surprises if Devon has their hand in it...

----------


## G.Walker

Ok, I figured it out...Even though Phillips demerged from ConocoPhillips, ConocoPhillips is still keeping the same name, and Phillips goes by Phillips 66 now. So ConocoPhillips is probably looking to relocate to OKC, as Phillips 66 is staying in Houston.

----------


## catch22

Anyone know anyone who works at their regional office in OKC? If something were happening I'm sure the rumors would be flooding at the regional office?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Does this Phillips move good or bad then?


If either ConocoPhillips or Phillips 66 were going to move here, I wouldn't think it would make much sense for Phillips 66 (the downstream, refining end) to move here when the majority of their business (refineries they operate, other refineries, other refining companies, and other downstream stuff) are in and around Houston. It would seem that they would really have no reason to move here. 

ConocoPhillips on the other hand is the exploration and production spinoff and would have a great deal in common with the exploration and production companies in Oklahoma City and Tulsa. In addition, OKC is fairly centrally located between all of their North American assets. At one point someone said that a "multinational company" was looking to move their North American HQ to OKC. CP is classified as a multinational company and operates in North America as well as offshore and in many countries all over the world. Maybe, in the spirit of fitting CP into this situation, because CP is still massive even after jettisoning downstream operations, they are looking to further divide the company location wise, leaving their international HQ in Houston to manage international and offshore operations and moving their North American HQ to OKC to manage on-shore North American assets. Houston would still be better as an international hub given it's international airport and near coastal situation, but OKC/Will Rogers has become very accessible from most cities within the US and as I said before, OKC is fairly Central to CP's NA assets. CP already has a large presence in Bartlesville, and I would be interested to learn what properties the Bartlesville office manages. Maybe they are interested in consolidating management of all North American assets to OKC. 

That is all completely speculation but intriguing none the less. Still seems farfetched but looking at it from that standpoint, it almost makes sense. I've attached maps of CP's North American Ops and Worldwide Op Locations.

----------


## PhiAlpha

To add to that. One of their largest emerging play acreage positions is in the Williston Basin (Bakken Shale). Who is the largest producer in the Bakken Shale and just moved to OKC? Continental Resources. They also have large acreage positions in the Fort Worth Basin (Barnett Shale), the Permian Basin in West Texas, the San Juan Basin in NM, and general OK area plus the TX panhandle. A move to OKC would bring them closer to all of these plays/areas as well as anything else they own in the Rockies and Arkansas. They would be moving further from large southern Texas plays, such as the Eagle Ford Shale, and Southern Louisiana and it wouldn't make much distance difference between Northern Lousiana plays, but it seems like OKC is definitely more central to the majority of their NA operations. Follow the link below for an explanation of their Lower 48 operating areas.

Lower 48

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I hope we snag a corporation that has nothing to do with energy for diversity. To many looking at our city, it may seem that it's just another energy bubble and a short-term boom with all the energy corporations here.

----------


## Teo9969

> *I hope we snag a corporation that has nothing to do with energy for diversity.* To many looking at our city, it may seem that it's just another energy bubble and a short-term boom with all the energy corporations here.


Me too...

In the mean time, I'll take any and every energy company that wants to move this direction...

----------


## Teo9969

> Are they also a "Sandridge Affiliate?


That was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the Conoco name.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> That was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the Conoco name.


When I think affiliate, I think of subsidiary companies or companies otherwise under the same ownership, So I don't think They would be considered an affiliate. However as it pertains to the 4th and Gaylord property, an LLC owned by SD could have bought the property as a holding group for CP or another entity. Chesapeake did something similar for Riata/Sandridge and Devon sold its old tower to Harorld Hamm's holding company. While it wouldn't be exactly the same or likely, similar things have happened.

----------


## Teo9969

So say Conoco does indeed move up here...How many people are they bringing? That would seem to me to be a huge factor in determining what kind of space they need...if downtown is likely etc.

Does Conoco have the cash to buy Chesapeake? If so, would a purchase and consolidation/relocation simply mean CHK's campus balloons?

----------


## 1972ford

No one wants to step into cheasapeakes mess unless cheasapeake is really close to bankruptcy and stock gets to about half of what it is now.  Thier contracts and debt make it very prohibitive to take over at anywhere near its current market valuation.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

OK, no matter what half of ConocoPhillips moves here, I can see it creating a HQ that would require new diggs, but remember, there are energy companies like Gulfport (Top 5 business in the state of Oklahoma for the past couple of years) that don't require massive amounts of space or require a skyscraper.  Don't get me wrong, I hope we see this "North American Headquarters", albeit CP or whoever, come in and take care of business.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I'd like to see something in the 500 foot range but resembles something like Mid-Continent Tower in Tulsa. Since that was added in the early 80's, it's possible to still construct something new but harkening back to hundred year old architectural styles. I guess I just wished they had never ruined the Petroleum Building (Dowell Center). 





Of course something 21st Century modern is fine too but I'd hope it's iconic either way.

----------


## Bellaboo

Not to upset the apple cart, but if Conoco wants the Stage Center site, I don't see how anyone could complain about that. That would be a better and higher use for that location.

Actually ConocoPhillips was first brought up in post #16 on this thread.

----------


## Pete

I'm in town and on the prowl...

Hopefully after some meetings this week I can throw some gas (as opposed to cold water) on the fire.  :Smile:

----------


## catch22

Some.....Natural Gas?

Enjoy your stay Pete!

----------


## G.Walker

If ConocoPhillips does relocate to downtown Oklahoma City consolidating its operations, and building a new skyscraper, it would be a game changer for downtown Oklahoma City, maybe more than Devon's impact. The reason I say that is because to have a major Fortune 500 company relocate from Houston to Oklahoma City, says a lot more about Oklahoma City's and Oklahoma's economy, rather than a local company building a new headquarters. However, Devon could have a hand in ConocoPhillips wanting to relocate here anyways...lol

----------


## okcfollower

I would love for this I happen...but I can't see them moving. I would love to be wrong though.

Also I believe Phillips66 has already annouced building plan for new HQ in Houston.

----------


## G.Walker

> I would love for this I happen...but I can't see them moving. I would love to be wrong though.
> 
> Also I believe Phillips66 has already annouced building plan for new HQ in Houston.


Exactly, Phillips 66 demerged from ConocoPhillips, and Phillips 66 is staying in Houston, but the million dollar question now is ConocoPhillips relocating to Oklahoma City?

----------


## Praedura

> ... but the million dollar question now is ConocoPhillips relocating to Oklahoma City?


Probably more like a "billion dollar question"!
 :Eek:

----------


## Spartan

Does anyone know what went on at the Devon ceremony this week? Any ConocoPhillips people in attendance? For some reason I have a hunch that Devon's deal this week holds the key to a lot of this.

By the way, who wants to guess what architecture firm designed CP's current Houston HQ...

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> I'm in town and on the prowl...
> 
> Hopefully after some meetings this week I can throw some gas (as opposed to cold water) on the fire.


Hey Pete I sent a PM.

----------


## G.Walker

> Does anyone know what went on at the Devon ceremony this week? Any ConocoPhillips people in attendance? For some reason I have a hunch that Devon's deal this week holds the key to a lot of this.
> 
> By the way, who wants to guess what architecture firm designed CP's current Houston HQ...


Pickard Chilton

----------


## Bellaboo

For something like this to happen, you'd need to look for a fairly large block of space for temporary digs for C/P.

That's where Beffort comes in and why he would be in the know. Where is there a fairly large block that would be readily available ?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> For something like this to happen, you'd need to look for a fairly large block of space for temporary digs for C/P.
> 
> That's where Beffort comes in and why he would be in the know. Where is there a fairly large block that would be readily available ?


it wouldn't have to  ... the announce a move .. start building and move into the new office in 2 years ...  and just have some limited space for a transition team in the mean time

----------


## Bellaboo

> it wouldn't have to  ... the announce a move .. start building and move into the new office in 2 years ...  and just have some limited space for a transition team in the mean time


They actually have a regional office on 63rd and Broadway extension. But remember how Continental leased space in the Corporate tower for a group of lawyers etc to get it started.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Just curious.. On a scale of 1-10, how likely is this????(Conoco Phillips relocation)

----------


## HangryHippo

> Just curious.. On a scale of 1-10, how likely is this????(Conoco Phillips relocation)


-1.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> -1.


Not according to some people apparently "in the know" here.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Not according to some people apparently "in the know" here.


I think there was an exodus of Oklahoma companies to Houston when the Gulf was really cooking. Don't think it is as active as the mid-continent is with the shale plays and Mississippi lime formation that has come into play in the last 2 years.

----------


## tucy

> Just curious.. On a scale of 1-10, how likely is this????(Conoco Phillips relocation)



-50.

This is not happening.  There was NEVER anything to this rumor and there has never been any chance of it happening.  From shortly after the first announcement of the separation of ConocoPhillips into ConocoPhillips and Phillips66 it was clear that the spun-off Phillips 66 would move out of the ConocoPhillips HQ but remain in the Houston area.  There has never been any reason whatsoever to think that ConocoPhillips would relocate after the spinoff.

The answer to Spartan's question:

Kevin Roche John Dinkeloo and Associates were the architects of the Conoco campus.  Pickard Chilton designed the more-recent "west campus".

----------


## G.Walker

> Just curious.. On a scale of 1-10, how likely is this????(Conoco Phillips relocation)


8, there are more reasons why this makes sense, then reasons why it doesn't make sense. There is a lot of smoke around this...we just have to wait it out...

----------


## Bellaboo

Pickard Chilton designed Exxon/Mobile's new campus north of Houston also.

The E/M R&D is relocating from the Galleria area to the new campus.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Not according to some people apparently "in the know" here.


Great, but it is not happening.  Neither Conoco, Phillips, nor any derivation of the two is relocating to OKC.

----------


## G.Walker

Even if we get only 1 out of 3 potential new headquarters to build a tower in downtown, that would be 2 major skyscrapers in just the last few years, that is unheard of for a city our size. To get all 3 would be simply ridiculousness...lol...

----------


## jedicurt

wasn't there a lot of smoke about ConocoPhillips moving their HQ or research facilities or something to just outside of Denver a few years ago?

----------


## tucy

> My co-worker told me it is Conoco, Inc. wanting to move back to Oklahoma and they never wanted to move to Houston in the first place when they merged, but Phillips pushed relocating to Houston. But it looks like Conoco wants to come back, and I wouldn't be surprises if Devon has their hand in it...


This is one of the red flags in this whole silly rumor.  Conoco was already headquartered in Houston long before their merger with then-Bartlesville-based Phillips.  This makes it pretty clear your co-worker doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

----------


## tucy

> wasn't there a lot of smoke about ConocoPhillips moving their HQ or research facilities or something to just outside of Denver a few years ago?


I believe they built an alternative energy research facility out there.

----------


## G.Walker

> This is one of the red flags in this whole silly rumor.  Conoco was already headquartered in Houston long before their merger with then-Bartlesville-based Phillips.  This makes it pretty clear your co-worker doesn't know what he/she is talking about.


Wrong, Conoco was based in Ponca City, Ok, and Phillips in Bartlesville, they merged and formed ConocPhillips and moved to Houston, do your research buddy...

----------


## tucy

> Wrong, Conoco was based in Ponca City, Ok, and Phillips in Bartlesville, they merged and formed ConocPhillips and moved to Houston, do your research buddy...


Wow.  Look it up dude.  Conoco has not been headquartered in Ponca City since 1949.

----------


## G.Walker

> I believe they built an alternative energy research facility out there.


Wrong again:

Boulder County Business Report | Today's News | Phillips won't build, to sell Louisville land

----------


## Spartan

> 8, there are more reasons why this makes sense, then reasons why it doesn't make sense. There is a lot of smoke around this...we just have to wait it out...


It does make a lot of sense, but a lot of things make a lot of sense. I'm hesitant to be as firmly negative as OnlyOne, but the reality is that this is an economic development deal that is still in the works. If OKC scores, it will require a LOT in the way of state incentives, OKC schmoozing, and so on. 

The first problem with corporate relocation to OKC is that our educational attainment is too low. CP may have concerns about being able to attract top talent while competing against DVN/CHK and other local companies that have better-established pipelines from OU/OSU. No doubt CP relocating would dramatically increase OKC's pull factor for the young, educated demographic, but in order to get the companies that left for Texas to come back north you've also got to get the college graduates to come north. 

We have the ED infrastructure in place to pull off deals like this, with the Chamber having some of the top ED professionals in the field, and the Alliance providing such an effective, smooth pipeline for public-private partnerships. So we'll just have to see. Getting a major relocation at this point in the game may be a little ahead of schedule, but I'd say that OKC has a fair chance. Keep in mind last time there was a major relocation project (Boeing), OKC made it to the final round but did not come out on top, but obviously made a good impression with Boeing that turned into thousands of jobs a few years later.

----------


## Spartan

Um... Conoco _was_ HQ'd in Ponca City. Are we really debating that fact?

----------


## tucy

> Wrong again:
> 
> Boulder County Business Report | Today's News | Phillips won't build, to sell Louisville land


I had not noticed that the plan had been canceled, but the plan was indeed for an alternative energy research facility, not for any HQ relocation.  (from the linked article:  "Phillips 66's corporate focus did not seem to be aligned with the vision for the research center, which was to develop alternative fuels,").

Instead of wasting your time on that non-issue, why don't you do a little research in to the history of Conoco?  Here, let me help you out.  This is from the Federal Trade Commission:

Parties to the Transaction

*Headquartered in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, Phillips* is an integrated oil company engaged in the worldwide exploration, production, and transportation of crude oil and natural gas; the gathering of natural gas; the fractionation of raw mix into certain products; refining, marketing, and transportation of petroleum products; and the production and marketing of chemicals. Phillips has approximately 10 percent of the nation's refining capacity and has about nine percent of the nation's gasoline sales. In 2001 it had revenues of $47.7 billion.

*Conoco, headquartered in Houston, Texas,* is also a fully integrated petroleum company engaged in the worldwide exploration, production, and transportation of crude oil and natural gas; gathering of natural gas; fractionation; and refining, marketing, and transportation of petroleum products. In 2001, the company had revenues of $39.5 billion.

----------


## G.Walker

> Um... Conoco _was_ HQ'd in Ponca City. Are we really debating that fact?


That's what I said...lol...

----------


## G.Walker

The "Roaring 20s" came to an end for Ponca City shortly before the Great Depression. After a successful takeover bid by J.P. Morgan, Jr., son of financier J.P. Morgan, Marland Oil Co. merged with *Continental Oil Co. (Conoco) in the late 1920s.[9] It was known as Conoco for more than 70 years. The company maintained its headquarters in Ponca City during this time and continued to grow into a global corporation.*

During the oil boom years of the 1980s, *Conoco was owned by the DuPont Corp., which took control of the company in 1981.[9] After nearly two decades of ownership and an oil bust that crippled Oklahoma's economy in the late 1980s, DuPont sold off its Conoco assets in 1998.[9] In 2002, Conoco had merged with Phillips Petroleum (another major petroleum player with roots in northern Oklahoma) to become ConocoPhillips.*[9] ConocoPhillips was then the sixth-largest publicly traded oil company in the world, and the third largest in the United States.[9] It maintains a significant presence in its historic home state.

----------


## tucy

> Um... Conoco _was_ HQ'd in Ponca City. Are we really debating that fact?


No, we are not debating whether Conoco was at one time in its distant past HQ'd in Ponca City.  

We are debating whether they were headquartered in Ponca City at the time they merged with Phillips.  This being the premise of the whole rumor that Conoco now wants to relocate its HQ to OKC, it's truth (or non-truth, as it happens) is key to appraising the rumor.

----------


## Spartan

> I had not noticed that the plan had been canceled, but the plan was indeed for an alternative energy research facility, not for any HQ relocation.  (from the linked article:  "Phillips 66's corporate focus did not seem to be aligned with the vision for the research center, which was to develop alternative fuels,").
> 
> Instead of wasting your time on that non-issue, why don't you do a little research in to the history of Conoco?  Here, let me help you out.  This is from the Federal Trade Commission:
> 
> Parties to the Transaction
> 
> *Headquartered in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, Phillips* is an integrated oil company engaged in the worldwide exploration, production, and transportation of crude oil and natural gas; the gathering of natural gas; the fractionation of raw mix into certain products; refining, marketing, and transportation of petroleum products; and the production and marketing of chemicals. Phillips has approximately 10 percent of the nation's refining capacity and has about nine percent of the nation's gasoline sales. In 2001 it had revenues of $47.7 billion.
> 
> *Conoco, headquartered in Houston, Texas,* is also a fully integrated petroleum company engaged in the worldwide exploration, production, and transportation of crude oil and natural gas; gathering of natural gas; fractionation; and refining, marketing, and transportation of petroleum products. In 2001, the company had revenues of $39.5 billion.


Tucy.. why don't you go check out Ponca City? It's a beautiful little town, great historic downtown and neighborhoods. Their city hall was recently renovated with CP money and they just put in an awesome streetscape for their downtown area. The monolithic big office buildings south of town were Conoco's, still are, but mostly empty I think. Kinda sad, but Ponca's done an awesome job of holding on. Most importantly, I believe they have a museum about the Conoco legacy there. Also, check out the Marland Mansion.

----------


## Spartan

ConocoPhillips split is deja vu for Ponca City, Bartlesville | Tulsa World

Employed 1,900 in Ponca at the merger. 

By the way, Wiki says Conoco moved to Houston in 1994, not the 1940s, not 2002. However even in the late 90s the corporate bigwigs were in Ponca. Also, Hamm lived in Nichols Hills for years before Continental made the trip downtown..

----------


## Bellaboo

> No, we are not debating whether Conoco was at one time in its distant past HQ'd in Ponca City.  
> 
> We are debating whether they were headquartered in Ponca City at the time they merged with Phillips.  This being the premise of the whole rumor that Conoco now wants to relocate its HQ to OKC, it's truth (or non-truth, as it happens) is key to appraising the rumor.


This relocation would have little to do with the past, you have to look at the present and future for an E&P company. The focus is on oil and the shale fields are now more mid-continent rather than the gulf. Forget the past, look to the future.

----------


## Spartan

> This relocation would have little to do with the past, you have to look at the present and future for an E&P company. The focus is on oil and the shale fields are now more mid-continent rather than the gulf. Forget the past, look to the future.


Yeah, I think the Anadarko and Bakken and other Great Plains plays rule the roost right now.

----------


## tucy

> The "Roaring 20s" came to an end for Ponca City shortly before the Great Depression. After a successful takeover bid by J.P. Morgan, Jr., son of financier J.P. Morgan, Marland Oil Co. merged with *Continental Oil Co. (Conoco) in the late 1920s.[9] It was known as Conoco for more than 70 years. The company maintained its headquarters in Ponca City during this time and continued to grow into a global corporation.*
> 
> During the oil boom years of the 1980s, *Conoco was owned by the DuPont Corp., which took control of the company in 1981.[9] After nearly two decades of ownership and an oil bust that crippled Oklahoma's economy in the late 1980s, DuPont sold off its Conoco assets in 1998.[9] In 2002, Conoco had merged with Phillips Petroleum (another major petroleum player with roots in northern Oklahoma) to become ConocoPhillips.*[9] ConocoPhillips was then the sixth-largest publicly traded oil company in the world, and the third largest in the United States.[9] It maintains a significant presence in its historic home state.



Not sure what the point of this post was.  But Conoco moved its headquarters to Houston in approximately 1949.  When it was bought  by DuPont the headquarters were officially in Connecticut and then Delaware, but operations HQ was still in Houston.  Then sometime the HQ was shifed back to Houston, certainly no later than 1999, when DuPont spun off Conoco.  Even the Wikipedia page from which you copied your information states that the headquarters was moved to Houston in 1994, 8 years before the merger with Phillips.  (someone apparently transposed the numbers.  It is an absolute fact that Conoco has been headquartered in Houston for many decades.

History of ConocoPhillips &ndash; FundingUniverse

Link to a 1989 story about Conoco's new headquarters campus in western Houston, completed in 1985, including a mention of their relocation from, not Ponca City, but Greenway Plaza.  (Prior to Greenway Plaza, Conoco's headquarters was in downtown Houston.)

----------


## tucy

> Tucy.. why don't you go check out Ponca City? It's a beautiful little town, great historic downtown and neighborhoods. Their city hall was recently renovated with CP money and they just put in an awesome streetscape for their downtown area. The monolithic big office buildings south of town were Conoco's, still are, but mostly empty I think. Kinda sad, but Ponca's done an awesome job of holding on. Most importantly, I believe they have a museum about the Conoco legacy there. Also, check out the Marland Mansion.


Yeah, I've been there.  Several times.  Very nice indeed.

----------


## tucy

> This relocation would have little to do with the past, you have to look at the present and future for an E&P company. The focus is on oil and the shale fields are now more mid-continent rather than the gulf. Forget the past, look to the future.


Yes, this imagined relocation has little to do with the past, including the long-ago past of Conoco's headquarters having once been in Oklahoma many decades ago.  ;-)

----------


## G.Walker

> ConocoPhillips split is deja vu for Ponca City, Bartlesville | Tulsa World
> 
> Employed 1,900 in Ponca at the merger. 
> 
> By the way, Wiki says Conoco moved to Houston in 1994, not the 1940s, not 2002. However even in the late 90s the corporate bigwigs were in Ponca. Also, Hamm lived in Nichols Hills for years before Continental made the trip downtown..


It's ok Spartan, don't worry about it, give tucy the benefit of the doubt, he is just a rookie to OKCTALK...

----------


## tucy

> ConocoPhillips split is deja vu for Ponca City, Bartlesville | Tulsa World
> 
> Employed 1,900 in Ponca at the merger. 
> 
> By the way, Wiki says Conoco moved to Houston in 1994, not the 1940s, not 2002. However even in the late 90s the corporate bigwigs were in Ponca. Also, Hamm lived in Nichols Hills for years before Continental made the trip downtown..


You are flat-out wrong about the Conoco corporate bigwigs still being in Ponca in the nineties.  I've been in the oil business in Oklahoma and Texas since the mid-80s and have done deals directly with Conoco.  That is just incorrect.  The top guys at Conoco have been in Houston for many many many years.  (Yes, I'm sure there were still a few people in Ponca that might have been categorized as "big-wigs", but the biggest of big-wigs and the vast majority of all big-wigs were in Houston long before the 1990s.

----------


## Bellaboo

Wilmington Deleware was never Conoco's HQ. It might have been incorporated there like 90% of the other companies in the US, but never had a presence.

----------


## jedicurt

the museum is great in ponca city.  in fact here is part of their educational curriculum from the museum

http://www.conocomuseum.com/EN/Docum...iculum-web.pdf

and if you scroll down to page 53 and look at Conoco Museum Jeopardy on this page, you will see this question

"2. 200 pts. Texas city where Conoco was headquartered.
Answer: What is Houston?"

The HQ has been many places... it was in Manhattan for a couple decades if i remember correctly (i think this was when they were a subsidiary of Dupont).  They have just always had a large presence and offices in Ponca because of the refinery and the history...   But at the time of the merger in 2002, the World Headquarters for Conoco, INC was in Houston TX


correction... i was wrong... the move of the World Headquarters to Manhattan occurred in 1965... and the Dupont purchase was after that

----------


## Spartan

Chesapeake is currently incorporated in Delaware, too.

I guess they were never HQ'd in OKC after all!

----------


## jedicurt

> Chesapeake is currently incorporated in Delaware, too.
> 
> I guess they were never HQ'd in OKC after all!


who cares about where something is incorporated?   the facts are that while Conoco still had a very large presence in Ponca City in the spring of 2002, the World HQ was located in Houston, TX, by their own admission.  All that tucy was trying to make the point of was that it was not Phillips who convinced Conoco to move their HQ to Houston after the merger in 2002, because the World HQ for Conoco was already in Houston, at the Conoco Center.  

Now i'm not saying that this means that ConocoPhillips isn't looking at moving their HQ to OKC.  and i'm not saying that when the merger happened in 2002, that the people at Conoco in Ponca City (of which there were many) didn't want to stay in Ponca City.  And i'm not saying that after the merger, that people from Ponca City weren't moved to Houston.  I'm trying to say that the person who said that Phillips is the one that wanted them to move to Houston is wrong, cause Conoco was already there...

----------


## G.Walker

Hopefully Pete has some good inside news for us after his "meetings"...I just want to know one, I don't care about the other 2, lol...

----------


## tucy

> Chesapeake is currently incorporated in Delaware, too.
> 
> I guess they were never HQ'd in OKC after all!


Dude, the state of incorporation has NOTHING to do with the location of the headquarters.

----------


## tucy

> Wilmington Deleware was never Conoco's HQ. It might have been incorporated there like 90% of the other companies in the US, but never had a presence.


Actually I think it was.  During part of the time they were owned by DuPont.  The operational HQ was clearly in Houston during the times referenced in the article linked below, but they apparently had a small east coast executive HQ.

STAMFORD TO LOSE CONOCO - NYTimes.com

----------


## jedicurt

articles from Houston Chronicle in 2001 (before merger)   And all refer to Conoco as a Houston based company, and talk about companies headquarters in houston
Conoco moving 125 workers here - Houston Chronicle
Conoco to purchase Gulf Canada for $4.3 billion - Houston Chronicle
Conoco, Phillips agree to merge - Houston Chronicle

infact in that last article i think i understand that issue... Phillips shareholders actually had the majority (56.6%) and they chose for the new corporations HQ to be in Houston (at the location where Conoco's HQ already was) instead of Bartlesville... maybe that is what they meant about Phillips making the HQ in Houston

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Awhile ago I said the "rumors" I heard of what mystery corporation was looking to relocate to OKC would make people's jaws drop if it came to fruition.  ConocoPhillips was the corporation I was referring to, or at least one of the split portions of the corporation. I thought it would be announced by now, but the fact that it hasn't makes me wonder if the plans are off or are delayed (or on schedule and I was just led to think it would happen sooner). I know people were skeptical at the time that any part of CP would move from Houston, but my information came directly from someone involved in the talks for relocation, so at the very least the idea is not as absurdP as some thought.


This is what I was basing my speculation off of more than Gwalker's statement.

I'm still very skeptical as well but people also doubted whether the Devon tower would get built and whether continental would move here with firm "absolutely not" type statements that Onlyone and tucy have made. Yes, this is rumor is a lot further out there than those, but people don't just post crazy things on this site to get a rise out of people. If someone is claiming that they have reason to believe something is more than speculation, given what people have predicted here, I have a difficult time completely dismissing it.

----------


## tucy

Here's another source - a 2009 Tulsa World story:

Conoco moved its headquarters to Houston decades ago but kept a strong presence in Ponca City.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Actually I think it was.  During part of the time they were owned by DuPont.  The operational HQ was clearly in Houston during the times referenced in the article linked below, but they apparently had a small east coast executive HQ.
> 
> STAMFORD TO LOSE CONOCO - NYTimes.com


I'm not sure if that was Conoco's HQ, or Dupont's HQ that ran Conoco, that was moved to Delaware. I would think that Conoco's HQ, no mattter where it was located, had more than 180 employees

----------


## tucy

> This is what I was basing my speculation off of more than Gwalker's statement.
> 
> I'm still very skeptical as well but people also doubted whether the Devon tower would get built and whether continental would move here with firm "absolutely not" type statements that Onlyone and tucy have made. Yes, this is rumor is a lot further out there than those, but people don't just post crazy things on this site to get a rise out of people. If someone is claiming that they have reason to believe something is more than speculation, given what people have predicted here, I have a difficult time completely dismissing it.



I'm guessing the person referred to by King183 works for the OKC Chamber of Commerce, or something similar. 

No doubt the minute the CP split-up hit the news, every chamber of commerce anywhere near the oil patch was making pitches for the potential relocation of one or both pieces.  The problem is, those talks for relocation were pretty much one-sided.  There MIGHT have been some glancing at other cities for the new Phillips HQ, but that contest was over 4 months after the split was announced.  There has NEVER been any interest in relocating the CP HQ after the split.  

Think about it for a moment.  Why would Phillips be moving out to temporary offices and buying property and preparing to start construction on a brand new world HQ facility if there was any possibility of CP vacating their huge campus? 

The beauty of these web forums is that you can post rumors that may or may not seem crazy to you and benefit from the insight of another set of eyes, including those of people who have a whole different set of experiences and knowledge.  Thus, we exposed GWalker's source as not really knowing what he was talking about.  

There is nothing wrong with posting crazy rumors and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the holes in the rumors.

----------


## s00nr1

> Here's another source - a 2009 Tulsa World story:
> 
> Conoco moved its headquarters to Houston decades ago but kept a strong presence in Ponca City.


OK the last two pages of this thread have gone completely off topic.

----------


## tucy

> I'm not sure if that was Conoco's HQ, or Dupont's HQ that ran Conoco, that was moved to Delaware. I would think that Conoco's HQ, no mattter where it was located, had more than 180 employees


According to the linked story, it was clearly the Conoco HQ.  When companies have their executive HQ separated from the operations, the HQ can be quite small.  ExxonMobil, the world's largest company, with over 80,000 employees worldwide, has executive HQ at an office park in Irving TX, with around 400 employees (I think fewer than 400).

----------


## tucy

> OK the last two pages of this thread have gone completely off topic.


No they haven't.  We  are discussing a rumored headquarter relocation to OKC.  ;-)

----------


## s00nr1

No there has been a pissing contest about where the Conoco HQ was located years ago -- irrelevant to the topic.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Why can't we all get along and just agree that if they moved here it would badass!!!!!

----------


## G.Walker

> No there has been a pissing contest about where the Conoco HQ was located years ago -- irrelevant to the topic.


I am confident that CP might relocate here as well as other energy companies, we just have to wait and see. But I would be even more excited if a non-energy company would relocate and add some diversity to our industry...but we need to take what we can get...lol... :Texas Sucks:

----------


## SOONER8693

> No there has been a pissing contest about where the Conoco HQ was located years ago -- irrelevant to the topic.


Bingo.

----------


## Bailey80

> I'm not sure if that was Conoco's HQ, or Dupont's HQ that ran Conoco, that was moved to Delaware. I would think that Conoco's HQ, no mattter where it was located, had more than 180 employees


Well, Conoco has never been shy about moving its headquarters in the past. Five HQ moves in less than 30 years. 


Conoco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


From Wikipedia:


Before the merger, Conoco had its headquarters in what is now the current ConocoPhillips headquarters in the Energy Corridor of Houston; the complex was formerly known as the Conoco Center.[4][5]

The headquarters of Conoco moved to Houston, Texas, in 1949.[1] In 1965, the headquarters moved to Manhattan, New York City. In 1972, the headquarters moved to Stamford, Connecticut; in Stamford Conoco occupied space in the three story High Ridge Park complex.[6] In 1982, DuPont announced that Conoco's headquarters would move from Stamford to Wilmington, Delaware.[7] The move occurred in 1982.[3] Edward G. Jefferson, the chairperson of DuPont, said that the headquarters relocation was to bring the head workforces of DuPont and Conoco together. DuPont also announced that it was closing the Conoco offices in Stamford; the lease in the Stamford complex was originally scheduled to expire in 1992.[6]

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> OK the last two pages of this thread have gone completely off topic.


Uhhhh yeah, the thread has been derailed over an argument that should be created in and of its own thread.  G. Walker should know better as he is a veteran on this site.  I don't blame tucy one bit, although he's reminding me of the "2013 and trains still have to blow their horns" guy.

----------


## Spartan

> Dude, the state of incorporation has NOTHING to do with the location of the headquarters.


You insinuated it first. I know I was just responding to a series of posts with Delaware in it, so don't get all assertive with me. I don't have a horse in this Ponca-Houston race, but I tend to think G.Walker is more credible than you. I tend to think Thunder is more credible than you because you were saying something about leaving Ponca in the 1940s.

The problem is that you raise a good point that it was obviously Conoco that made the Houston plunge first and brought Phillips into the mix there, not vice versa. That got shrouded by your personal warring with G.Walker and making ludicrous claims about leaving Ponca in the 40s and then getting defensive about who killed Princess Diana and who invented peanut butter, among a host of other ancillary issues.

I had a fairly matter-of-fact post about CP strictly from an economic development deal perspective that got completely passed up by this nonsense you initiated. I'd rather talk about that, bringing this down to earth, examining ALL that it would take to get CP here. Hint: It's a helluva lot more than just a building.

----------


## Snowman

> ...Think about it for a moment.  Why would Phillips be moving out to temporary offices and buying property and preparing to start construction on a brand new world HQ facility if there was any possibility of CP vacating their huge campus? ...


I do not think Phillips is moving here and most of the discussion has been CP moving. Why would they stay if CP was vacating, it is roughly three times the size they would need that they would have to operate and maintain.

----------


## tucy

> You insinuated it first. I know I was just responding to a series of posts with Delaware in it, so don't get all assertive with me. I don't have a horse in this Ponca-Houston race, but I tend to think G.Walker is more credible than you. I tend to think Thunder is more credible than you because you were saying something about leaving Ponca in the 1940s.
> 
> The problem is that you raise a good point that it was obviously Conoco that made the Houston plunge first and brought Phillips into the mix there, not vice versa. That got shrouded by your personal warring with G.Walker and making ludicrous claims about leaving Ponca in the 40s and then getting defensive about who killed Princess Diana and who invented peanut butter, among a host of other ancillary issues.
> 
> I had a fairly matter-of-fact post about CP strictly from an economic development deal perspective that got completely passed up by this nonsense you initiated. I'd rather talk about that, bringing this down to earth, examining ALL that it would take to get CP here. Hint: It's a helluva lot more than just a building.



Surely, you're smart enough to know I made no such insinuation.

If being wrong is so hard on you, perhaps you should try remaining silent on topics about which you don't know anything.

I sincerely apologize to the forum if some are offended by the topic going ever-so-slightly off-course.  It seems to me to be useful to examine rumors and to share information that makes the rumors either more or less credible.  That is all I attempted to do.  When the facts I posted were attacked, I'm sorry that I posted more sources and backup to support my statements.  I thought the forum members would appreciate getting to the truth of the matter.

It is a simple, easily verifiable fact, that Conoco's headquarters was not located in Oklahoma at the time of the merger with Phillips (and it indeed moved its HQ out of Oklahoma in the 1940s).  When the source of the relocation rumor thinks that Conoco moved its HQ to Houston in 2002 as a result of Phillips' insistence, well, it seems useful to me to know that information is false, making the rumor source less than credible.  

Anyone interested in facts rather than just making points on a forum (or whatever floats their boats),  could have taken a couple minutes to research rather than just throw out false information regarding the history of Conoco.

----------


## tucy

> It does make a lot of sense, but a lot of things make a lot of sense. I'm hesitant to be as firmly negative as OnlyOne, but the reality is that this is an economic development deal that is still in the works. If OKC scores, it will require a LOT in the way of state incentives, OKC schmoozing, and so on. 
> 
> The first problem with corporate relocation to OKC is that our educational attainment is too low. CP may have concerns about being able to attract top talent while competing against DVN/CHK and other local companies that have better-established pipelines from OU/OSU. No doubt CP relocating would dramatically increase OKC's pull factor for the young, educated demographic, but in order to get the companies that left for Texas to come back north you've also got to get the college graduates to come north. 
> 
> We have the ED infrastructure in place to pull off deals like this, with the Chamber having some of the top ED professionals in the field, and the Alliance providing such an effective, smooth pipeline for public-private partnerships. So we'll just have to see. Getting a major relocation at this point in the game may be a little ahead of schedule, but I'd say that OKC has a fair chance. Keep in mind last time there was a major relocation project (Boeing), OKC made it to the final round but did not come out on top, but obviously made a good impression with Boeing that turned into thousands of jobs a few years later.


Here, Spartan.  I bumped your post up so it can get the attention it deserves.

----------


## Spartan

> Surely, you're smart enough to know I made no such insinuation.
> 
> If being wrong is so hard on you, perhaps you should try remaining silent on topics about which you don't know anything.
> 
> I sincerely apologize to the forum if some are offended by the topic going ever-so-slightly off-course.  It seems to me to be useful to examine rumors and to share information that makes the rumors either more or less credible.  That is all I attempted to do.  When the facts I posted were attacked, I'm sorry that I posted more sources and backup to support my statements.  I thought the forum members would appreciate getting to the truth of the matter.
> 
> It is a simple, easily verifiable fact, that Conoco's headquarters was not located in Oklahoma at the time of the merger with Phillips (and it indeed moved its HQ out of Oklahoma in the 1940s).  When the source of the relocation rumor thinks that Conoco moved its HQ to Houston in 2002 as a result of Phillips' insistence, well, it seems useful to me to know that information is false, making the rumor source less than credible.  
> 
> Anyone interested in facts rather than just making points on a forum (or whatever floats their boats),  could have taken a couple minutes to research rather than just throw out false information regarding the history of Conoco.


Our disagreement is just between 1940 and 1994, and I have a source too. Sorry if I came down too hard on you, I just don't like seeing flame wars initiated on posters I like since I know how annoying it is

----------


## s00nr1

Awaiting Pete's intervention in 3....2....1....

----------


## Spartan

Shyeah, this is all so getting deleted..lol

----------


## G.Walker

As a personal preference, I would just like to see one 40-45, 650'+ tower on the Stage Center or Preftakes block, whether it be ConocoPhillips, Midfirst, or whoever, I really don't care, just as long as they embrace street-level pedestrian interaction.Then 6-8 story mixed used infill developments in and around the CBD, I would be content with that.

----------


## Bellaboo

This thread is 'speculation, news and ideas'. It's basically wide open for input from all sources, whether we agree or not to an expressed opinion, it's very good to hear from all sources as a means to put the next project in the forefront as soon as possible.

Thanks to everyones knowledge and contributions, hopefully we'll be 'in the know' when something does happen.

----------


## jedicurt

I'm still hoping we see several things put on Stage Center site, one of which being a 650+ tower.   And i still want to see a 350+ tower on the 4th and EKG plot.  And I want to see a large (hopefully 350+) High Density Residential built right off the new central park soon.

----------


## Praedura

> I'm still hoping we see several things put on Stage Center site, one of which being a 650+ tower.   And i still want to see a 350+ tower on the 4th and EKG plot.  And I want to see a large (hopefully 350+) High Density Residential built right off the new central park soon.


 :Iagree: 

all that... and more!

 :Smiley173:

----------


## hoya

My friends have commented that I want to see OKC turn into New York.  I want lots of towers, lots of development, lots of people.  And that's probably an accurate statement.  A large tower on the Stage Center site, another on the back side of the Preftakes block, Sandridge putting up a new building, then another building on 4th and EKG, a convention hotel tower, and then maybe a good sized residential tower.  Get all that started within the next 5 years and I'll be thrilled.  I doubt all that will happen, but it's on the edge of possible.  Of course, once those are built, I'd push for more to come later.

I want to see infill in the rest of the downtown area, turning parking lots into 6-10 story buildings.  I think we'll start to see things like this talked about once Deep Deuce fills up and demand for downtown apartments still exists.  I'd love it if we surrounded our central park with nice midrises like Central Park West in New York.



This kind of development will take decades, but I think we need to steer development in that direction.  That's my vision for OKC anyway.

----------


## BDP

> My friends have commented that I want to see OKC turn into New York.  I want lots of towers, lots of development, lots of people.  And that's probably an accurate statement.  A large tower on the Stage Center site, another on the back side of the Preftakes block, Sandridge putting up a new building, then another building on 4th and EKG, a convention hotel tower, and then maybe a good sized residential tower.  Get all that started within the next 5 years and I'll be thrilled.  I doubt all that will happen, but it's on the edge of possible.  Of course, once those are built, I'd push for more to come later.


The thing is that this kind of development does not really get us any closer to a New York feel. I'm not saying it's not a good thing, but the super structures are not really what make cities desirable urban locations. Lots of places have a downtown with big buildings but little life and even a lot of cities with great urban living have downtowns or financial districts that go dead after 5.




> I want to see infill in the rest of the downtown area, turning parking lots into 6-10 story buildings.  I think we'll start to see things like this talked about once Deep Deuce fills up and demand for downtown apartments still exists.  I'd love it if we surrounded our central park with nice midrises like Central Park West in New York.


I think this is what will make it feel like a city with areal functioning urban core. Granted your phase one may be the chicken that lays this egg, but if this doesn't happen, we'll still only be left with half the urban experience and be missing probably the most important half of it.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

A few related questions. 

Steve Lackmeyer: More local companies are looking for new office construction downtown | NewsOK.com

----------


## G.Walker

Several months? Looks like Beffort's notion at the beginning of year stating we would have an announcement and construction starting this year has changed. They way its sounding is that we probably won't get an official announcement from anybody until next year, and nobody really has any solid information to share, seems like a lot of this is still up in the air.

----------


## okcfollower

If I were a company thinking about building...I Absolutely wouldn't be announcing anything until after the elections or even until after the innuguration.

----------


## Spartan

> If I were a company thinking about building...I Absolutely wouldn't be announcing anything until after the elections or even until after the innuguration.


Huh?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Huh?


Barring an economic collapse because Obama would still be in office...that's what he means.

----------


## betts

Although this isn't the political forum.  Seriously?  If Obama has been in office four years and the economy has slowly improved, why on earth would one expect his presence if office to cause economic collapse?  The election hyperbole is getting thick.

----------


## G.Walker

> Barring an economic collapse because Obama would still be in office...that's what he means.


Devon Tower was built during a recession and Obama was President, lol. If a company is building a tower, I am sure they have been planning this for years, has nothing to do with who is President, if they want to build it, they will build it.

----------


## Just the facts

> Although this isn't the political forum.  Seriously?  If Obama has been in office four years and the economy has slowly improved, why on earth would one expect his presence if office to cause economic collapse?  The election hyperbole is getting thick.


I think he meant if Romney is elected there would be a collapse.  Although, Obama did say he would be free to pursue his own agenda in a second term (he didn't say whose agenda he has been pursuing).  Anyhow, if it is an out of state company relocating I wouldn't expect to hear anything until after Jan 1 (why stress out employees during the holidays).  If it is a local company I would expect something before Thanksgiving.

----------


## Spartan

> Devon Tower was built during a recession and Obama was President, lol. If a company is building a tower, I am sure they have been planning this for years, has nothing to do with who is President, if they want to build it, they will build it.


This. Some of you guys are insane at times? I also agree with what Kerry said...

I'll rank these in order of how ready the developer may be at this point:

Devon's expansion..they may be locked and loaded
Stage Center mixed-use redevelopment
MidFirst headquarters..thinking it over for long enough
OG+E..really the wild card
ConocoPhillips..would require major state/city dealings
Anyone else..last

----------


## ljbab728

> Several months? Looks like Beffort's notion at the beginning of year stating we would have an announcement and construction starting this year has changed. They way its sounding is that we probably won't get an official announcement from anybody until next year, and nobody really has any solid information to share, seems like a lot of this is still *up in the air*.


Which is, of course, exactly where information about a skyscraper should be.  LOL

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

----------


## catch22

Joshua Paradise Holdings LLC from First National Building I LLC, property located near the northwest corner of E Reno Avenue and N E.K. Gaylord Blvd., $5,300,000.

Land sales | NewsOK.com

This address doesn't make sense. NW corner of Reno and EKG is the Cox Convention Center. "N" streets don't start until Main St, so the Cox site is Reno and S EKG.


Typos? Is this the sale of FNC (as the selling party's name implies)? Or something else?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Sorry to blow up a political debacle there, which in the first place is why I never go to that thread, I too don't really see anything wrong with announcing now or later or why that would have anything to do with the election.  A company builds in a location for its future.  Yes, Devon built in a recession and it put us on a map..recession proof and should well add political proof.

----------


## Pete

> Joshua Paradise Holdings LLC from First National Building I LLC, property located near the northwest corner of E Reno Avenue and N E.K. Gaylord Blvd., $5,300,000.
> 
> Land sales | NewsOK.com
> 
> This address doesn't make sense. NW corner of Reno and EKG is the Cox Convention Center. "N" streets don't start until Main St, so the Cox site is Reno and S EKG.
> 
> 
> Typos? Is this the sale of FNC (as the selling party's name implies)? Or something else?


They just got the address wrong.

This is the transfer of all three FNC Buildings (Tower, Center and East) to this entity, who everybody suspects is just another shell company for Yashouafar.

----------


## Spartan

> Sorry to blow up a political debacle there, which in the first place is why I never go to that thread, I too don't really see anything wrong with announcing now or later or why that would have anything to do with the election.  A company builds in a location for its future.  Yes, Devon built in a recession and it put us on a map..recession proof and should well add political proof.


Except we are extremely politic-vulnerable in reality

----------


## metro

Ever ask a business owner in the O&G business how an Obama re-election will affect them? Probably not.

----------


## CaptDave

> Ever ask a business owner in the O&G business how an Obama re-election will affect them? Probably not.


They might say something about overtaking Saudi Arabia in production and building 50 story towers with cash..... which means another tower is likely regardless of who occupies the Oval Office. All we need to do is remain positive and patient - while having fun speculating who might be erecting cranes downtown in the next year or so. Sheesh.

----------


## bchris02

> 


Right now Charlotte is about a decade ahead of OKC in terms of growth/development.  I do think however with a couple more towers downtown OKC may trump downtown Charlotte.  OKC's downtown is already more dense and compact than Charlotte.  A couple new corporate towers and then some residential towers would be great to get more people living downtown. Charlotte has quite a few people living downtown or close to it now and if OKC can get there it will really improve street life there seven days a week. Charlotte just opened one called "The Vue" which is a extremely nice luxury apartment tower. 

The VUE Charlotte on 5th | Luxury High-Rise Apartments in Uptown Charlotte, North Carolina

Does anybody think such a concept could work in OKC?

----------


## Easy180

> Ever ask a business owner in the O&G business how an Obama re-election will affect them? Probably not.


Do we ask whether they profit more from the higher oil prices that Obama brought on or low prices Romney promises?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

One can only hope.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

bitly.com/RYjdwG

----------


## Easy180

I'm digging the One Wells Fargo design

----------


## Just the facts

Charlotte Chamber - Demographic Profile Maps




> Although Downtown shows the least amount of population, it has grown by over 10,000 residents in the past ten years and is projected to reach 100,000 by the year 2027


I wonder if they are still on-track for that.

----------


## bchris02

> Charlotte Chamber - Demographic Profile Maps
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if they are still on-track for that.


It's possible, but its also sadly possible that Charlotte is about to go through some rough patches economically.  They have one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation and with trouble brewing for Bank of America it could get worse.  Charlotte today is viewed as "hip" and a lot of young people want to relocate there, even with its economic problems.  20 years ago though, Charlotte suffered from an image problem just like OKC does.  I think image issues can be turned around that is slowly happening in OKC.  OKC is really in the position Charlotte was in in the '90s when they still had the Hornets and their boom was just getting off the ground.  This matters because making OKC a place young people want to relocate to and/or stopping natives from leaving for Dallas or Houston will help make ambitious downtown living projects such as The Vue possible.

----------


## plmccordj

Without fail someone has to blame people of faith. Typical.

----------


## bchris02

> Without fail someone has to blame people of faith. Typical.


It's not people of faith at all, its people such as Sally Kern who say outlandish things that bring negative national attention to OKC.  I personally don't fault her for her comments because the media took them out of context, but you can't deny they did strengthen the stereotype people have of Oklahoma.

----------


## Just the facts

> Without fail someone has to blame people of faith. Typical.


I don't get it either.  No one, I repeat no one, is saying "I would move to downtown OKC if it wasn't for Sally Kern".  You ask a 1000 people in OKC who Sally Kern is and maybe 100 of them will know.  You ask a million people outside of Oklahoma who Sally Kern is none of them will know.

I know the young creative class likes to think they are the economic engine that will fuel downtown growth but downtown isn't going to be sustainable until it can attract families.  10 young people renting at Level can't hold an economic candle to a 40 years old with kids (this is why suburbia has held on as long as it has).  Now that is not to say that today's renter at Level won't be tomorrows 40 years old with kids.

Ultimately downtown and the surrounding area needs to have something for everyone at each stage of life and income level.  That is how you build a neighborhood that can be sustained for more than 20 years.  Picking one group and targeting it won't get it done long term because you have to keep retargeting that group every year as people move through it.  Miss a few years and it all falls apart.

----------


## stlokc

I want downtown to attract families, sure. But to say "10 young people renting at Level can't hold an economic candle to a 40 year old with kids" is a little ridiculous. 10 young people will be visiting restaurants and bars to a degree that a 40 year old with kids never will. I know lots of young people and I know lots of 40 year olds with kids. The families with kids may have a higher income, they also have lots more demands on their disposable income.

----------


## Bellaboo

> This. Some of you guys are insane at times? I also agree with what Kerry said...
> 
> I'll rank these in order of how ready the developer may be at this point:
> 
> Devon's expansion..they may be locked and loaded
> Stage Center mixed-use redevelopment
> MidFirst headquarters..thinking it over for long enough
> *OG+E..really the wild card*
> ConocoPhillips..would require major state/city dealings
> Anyone else..last


I threw this out there a while back for only one reason. I remember back in the early 1980's, they had actually proposed building a 28 floor tower, thus doubling their 14 floor headquarters. I know a lot has changed, but I believe they are forward thinking enough, especially when ENOGEX relocated downtown to LS. There could be something said about consolidation, since that trend is what Devon just accomplished.
I have no inside information, just trying to see the future a bit.

----------


## Just the facts

> I want downtown to attract families, sure. But to say "10 young people renting at Level can't hold an economic candle to a 40 year old with kids" is a little ridiculous. 10 young people will be visiting restaurants and bars to a degree that a 40 year old with kids never will. I know lots of young people and I know lots of 40 year olds with kids. The families with kids may have a higher income, they also have lots more demands on their disposable income.


Does that restaurant tab add up to $350,000 to $500,000 investment in a downtown home and the accompaning property tax?

----------


## Snowman

> Does that restaurant tab add up to $350,000 to $500,000 investment in a downtown home and the accompaning property tax?


The owner of the apartments invested and pays property tax too

----------


## stlokc

Just The Facts - No, of course it doesn't. You're right about that, of course, but that's not what I was thinking about. I wasn't thinking about the money being paid to a bank for a mortgage. I was thinking about the money actually being spent throughout downtown on a regular basis, circulating through restaurants, retail establishments, sporting venues. A younger person with some means (professional positon) hits above their weight when it comes to pumping money into an area. Lots more fixed costs going elsewhere associated with a hefty mortgage.

----------


## Just the facts

Before we get too far off base, I'm not knocking the renter.  Yes the apartment owner made a sizable investment but he has to find a new renter every 12 months.  When The Hill finds a buyer they never have to sell that unit again.  Like I said, downtown needs everyone of every background, at every income level, and at every age.  Trying to only 'target' a specific demographic isn't going to work, especially a demographic that bases a lot of their decision making on trends.  Trends by definition aren't sustainable.  In the early stages of downtown housing development it makes since to go after the single young person because they have the flexability to move quickly and follow their current desires, but those desires can take them out of downtown just as fast as it took them into downtown.  Put a $500,000 anchor in the ground and most people don't go anywhere for a long time - even if they want to.

So how does all this tie back to a mystery tower?  It doesn't.

----------


## Pete

Back to the topic of mystery tower(s) I have some new, solid information.

Yesterday, I spoke in person to someone who most would consider the ultimate authority on this topic and would certainly know at least as much as any one person, and here is what I learned:

1.  That large grassy lot at 4th & EK Gaylord purchased by a SandRidge LLC is just for their future use.  "They just want to control that property for now" and have no specific plans, especially since they already plan a new building next to their tower and own several other properties in the area.  Also, they have not made much progress on obtaining the Chase drive-in bank immediately north of the Broadway/Kerr garage which they recently purchased.  So, I consider this disappointing news, as nothing new or exciting is imminent at 4th & EKG. I suppose they could be holding for another company but that doesn't seem to be the case right now.

2. MidFirst is probably not going to be building downtown any time soon.  As I have feared, it seems that Chesapeake has backed off trying to buy their existing properties and therefore they no longer have the motivation to move. Yes, the MidFirst / Midland operations are split between multiple buildings and they are pretty much out of space, but since they have multiple businesses it isn't critical they are all in one place.  Also, they did in fact make a run at the OPUBCO properties on Broadway Extension, but that was when Chesapeake was still hot for their properties and before all the board shake-up at CHK.

3. Devon is definitely going to build something but I'm not sure it's as imminent as most of us are hoping.  I get the impression they are just starting to do serious planning, so don't expect any sort of announcement in the next few months.

4. There are multiple parties interested in Stage Center and it should be sold in the near future.

5. There is one local company and one company that is not local looking to build HQ's downtown, and this excludes Devon.  Since MidFirst seems to be out of the picture, I would speculate it may be Continental but that's just an educated guess.  I really don't know who else it could be.  As for as the non-local company, I have no clue and nobody seems to be talking.

----------


## Pete

Trying to remember more from a somewhat long conversation...

6.  Also as I had speculated, it looks like Chesapeake will be consolidating employees to their main campus and away from a bunch of the buildings they recently bought like Caliber Center, Atrium Towers, etc.  They have several new buildings finishing up on campus, are selling off assets and therefore won't have as much need for these out-lying properties.  They will either lease out the space or sell them at some point.  (Interesting note:  Even though they completely sold the business that occupies the two Central Park buildings, they still own those properties.  Not sure if they will be eventually transferred but it seems CHK might want to stay in the landlord / real estate investment business.

7. Devon still has several floors in Corporate Tower and they are planning to keep them for the foreseeable future.  I believe this is for their employees, not just affiliates.  So, that underscores their need for space and why everyone is pretty sure they will soon be building again.

----------


## G.Walker

That makes sense...Steve said potential headquarters would be built by mostly but not totally local companies. Which would suggest 2 of the 3 headquarters would be built by local companies, hence Devon and Continental. The other company would be a relocation, prob what the Chamber has been working on for the last couple years. If Devon is buliding a new tower, they will prob be first to announce, they have been pretty transparent with the public re their developments.

----------


## Frustratedoptimist

Thanks Pete - Any mention of Preftakes properties?

----------


## kevinpate

> ... 
> 
> 1.  That large grassy lot at 4th & EK Gaylord purchased by a SandRidge LLC is just for their future use.  *"They just want to control that property for now"* and have no specific plans, especially since they already plan a new building next to their tower and own several other properties in the area.  Also, they have not made much progress on obtaining the Chase drive-in bank immediately north of the Broadway/Kerr garage which they recently purchased.  So, I consider this disappointing news, as nothing new or exciting is imminent at 4th & EKG. I suppose they could be holding for another company but that doesn't seem to be the case right now. ...


What an excellent quote for inclusion in a mystery tower thread, even with the caveat at the end.

----------


## Pete

> Thanks Pete - Any mention of Preftakes properties?


Still think this is controlled by Devon and things will happen there when they are ready to start expanding and probably not before.

My impression is that Devon won't be announcing anything new for at least a year.

----------


## CaptDave

Well.... way to throw a wet blanket of my hopes for the "home run" of 3 or more new towers Pete!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Thanks for the update though. I still hope we will see cranes in the CBD again soon, but this is a good reminder we need to temper our enthusiasm with cold hard reality every now and then.

----------


## Pete

Back to SandRidge, I get the impression they are taking the Chesapeake route in buying and controlling properties around their HQ without a specific long-term plan.

With everything they now own, they would probably never need it just for employee office space.

----------


## Praedura

Yikes. Pete, your post is like a big splash of ice cold water on my hopes.

Sigh. Oh well. Back to where we were. Which is hoping that somewhere down the line somebody may announce something. Maybe.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Yikes. Pete, your post is like a big splash of ice cold water on my hopes.
> 
> Sigh. Oh well. Back to where we were. Which is hoping that somewhere down the line somebody may announce something. Maybe.


Thank you Pete for your updates.  I think a lot of this was already sort of known, but I don't think some of our optimistic posters were willing to admit that we knew.  Pete had long mused that Chesapeake was backing off their attempts to buy the MidFirst properties and we all sort of bemoaned Jeff Records' refusal to sell while he had an offer.  And we've known that Devon isn't in any sort of rush.  We've also figured that Sandridge was behind the purchase and thinking anything else was in store was just being incredibly hopeful.  It just seems that we all actually did get quite caught up in some excitement and hype but that there's still a long way to go but we're working slowly toward a better downtown.

----------


## G.Walker

I don't know what people are getting so upset for? There are still 3 headquarters planned for downtown, it's just we don't know when or by who. This just goes to show we don't know as much as we think, and we just need to wait and see what happens, the best part about all this is the anticipation. Then once it's finally announced, we will be like "oh ok...so when is the next one going up"? Lol...

----------


## CaptDave

Not upset I don't think, just had some wind taken out of a few sails. It is probably for the best, slow and steady is best for OKC long term any way.

----------


## bchris02

> Not upset I don't think, just had some wind taken out of a few sails. It is probably for the best, slow and steady is best for OKC long term any way.


If OKC gets just one more tower in the next few years that will be great, and if it gets two that will just be icing on the cake.  Building booms like what happened in Charlotte in the 2000s decade are very exciting but not always the best for a city.  One just has to look at where Charlotte is today.  I doubt anything significant is going to happen in their downtown for a long, long time.

I definitely hope OKC can get some residential highrises though.

----------


## G.Walker

Even if we only get 1 out 3 companies to build significant tower within the next few years, thats pretty good for a city our size. The only way OKC can go from here, is up!

----------


## stlokc

As always, Pete, thanks for your updates. Let's not forget when speculating about "towers" that a convention center hotel is practically a certainty in the next 2 or 3 years. That will be a "tower" of some heft. Even if there's only 1 or possibly 2 office towers, we'll also be adding that building to the mix.

----------


## jedicurt

Well that kinda stinks about MidFirst.   I hadn't been able to talk to my source "in the know" involving them for quite some time, but nice to know that their telling me with absolute certainty that an offer was made from Midfirst for the OPUBCO property on Broadway Extension was accurate.  

Knowing several people who have been with Continental for quite some time (really from the beginning for a few of them),  I think that the election really does dictate some of the immediate plans for them.  As i am still hearing that if Romney wins, his first choice for Secretary of Energy is Harold Hamm...   Now while i don't think that will slow them down too much, it will be interesting to see how it shakes things at the top, if this does happen.

----------


## HangryHippo

I really thought MidFirst Bank would move downtown, especially with American Fidelity securing the Oklahoman's facilities.  I'm pretty bummed they won't be moving downtown.

----------


## metro

> Even if we only get 1 out 3 companies to build significant tower within the next few years, thats pretty good for a city our size. The only way OKC can go from here, is up!


not true, but we should choose to be optimistic!

----------


## Pete

Okay more information today and this is a bit more exciting.

OG&E is in the process of looking for a downtown site for a new HQ.  Don't know the building size or height but this is an active process where they have retained a national real estate firm to aid them in site selection.  It seems that this is almost certainly going to happen, it's just a matter of where, when and how tall.Something is going to happen on the Stage Center site and it may very well be a new HQ for Continental.  I hear they are definitely one of the companies making a bid on the site.  They are already out of space at the building they bought from Devon and as well all know, continuing to out-pace their very aggressive growth plans.  OG&E may make a bid as well.The Conoco / Phillips rumors are still out there.  They were definitely interested at one time and from what I'm hearing, this may still be a possibility.There has been info. flying around about Bank of Oklahoma for a while and they may be the "non-local" company looking to set up shop downtown.  More than likely, if they do something it may be for one of their affiliates / subsidiaries / business partners.


So, let's recap and do some educated speculation:

1. SandRidge is going to build a new tower just east of their existing 29-story HQ.  From all indications, it will be 15-20 floors.  I'm quite certain they don't want it to overwhelm their existing tower, as they have a large conference center on the 28th floor and the execs are on the 29th.  They have this setup to be the centerpiece of their holdings and I don't think they will do anything to change that.  The property they just acquired at 4th & EK Gaylord may not be for SandRidge's use but will be developed by SD or it's principals.

2. OG&E is almost certainly going to build downtown.  They are probably one of the companies counted among those interested in Stage Center but that may go to Continental and they have certainly scouted other sites.  No idea of the size/height but they are serious and I would expect it would be at least 20 floors.

3. Continental is actively looking to build a new tower and will make a strong run at Stage Center.  If they get that property, they may develop that whole block as their HQ and we know they will need more than the 19 floors they presently own.  If they don't get Stage Center, I have every reason to believe they will select another downtown site and go from there.

4. I'm completely convinced that Devon is behind Nick Preftakes and all the properties he controls directly west of their HQ.  They are holding onto several floors in Corporate Tower, which shows that even in the short term they believe they will need it in addition to the massive complex they just built.  Hard to tell how far along they are in their planning but I do know this project is being talked about pretty openly within the organization.  I would expect a new tower around Main & Hudson tied into their existing complex, and possibly a medical clinic as a part of that or as a separate structure.  When the new tower is announced, I would also expect to see at least preliminary plans for the rest of that block (working in concert with the City who owns a large building there).

5. We know there will be a large convention hotel built adjacent to the new CC.  Still very early in terms of the City attracting and negotiating with a hotel operator, but this is another project that is almost certain to happen and be at least 20 floors.

6. A company somehow related to Bank of Oklahoma has been showing interest in a downtown HQ.  Conoco / Philips as well.  Hard to tell which if either of these are real and/or still on-going but the City and people that know downtown real estate seem pretty certain a non-local company is going to build downtown and that an announcement could be coming in the next six months or so.

7. Residential is going to come, but it will probably be as a second wave in relation to projects 1-6.  Not hearing anything about active development of mid- or high-rise residential, other than Rick Dowell's long-term plans.

8. Almost certainly more hotels are coming but again, there does not seem to be any active projects other than the CC hotel and the ones already announced.

----------


## catch22

THAT'S more like it!

 :Smile:  Thanks Pete.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Okay more information today and this is a bit more exciting.
> 
> OG&E is in the process of looking for a downtown site for a new HQ.  Don't know the building size or height but this is an active process where they have retained a national real estate firm to aid them in site selection.  It seems that this is almost certainly going to happen, it's just a matter of where, when and how tall.Something is going to happen on the Stage Center site and it may very well be a new HQ for Continental.  I hear they are definitely one of the companies making a bid on the site.  They are already out of space at the building they bought from Devon and as well all know, continuing to out-pace their very aggressive growth plans.  OG&E may make a bid as well.The Conoco / Phillips rumors are still out there.  They were definitely interested at one time and from what I'm hearing, this may still be a possibility.There has been info. flying around about Bank of Oklahoma for a while and they may be the "non-local" company looking to set up shop downtown.  More than likely, if they do something it may be for one of their affiliates / subsidiaries / business partners.
> 
> 
> So, let's recap and do some educated speculation:
> 
> 1. SandRidge is going to build a new tower just east of their existing 29-story HQ.  From all indications, it will be 15-20 floors.  I'm quite certain they don't want it to overwhelm their existing tower, as they have a large conference center on the 28th floor and the execs are on the 29th.  They have this setup to be the centerpiece of their holdings and I don't think they will do anything to change that.  The property they just acquired at 4th & EK Gaylord may not be for SandRidge's use but will be developed by SD or it's principals.
> 
> ...


Great update Pete!  Thanks for you hard work.

----------


## Pete

One other bit of info. that is very interesting yet depressing at the same time.

There was at least one great local owner/developer ready to buy First National Center from Capmark as soon as they could seize control from Yashouafar.  This particular group would have been the near perfect ownership to lead that property forward, with their great track record and ample resources.

Reading between the lines of Steve's posts in the FNC thread, this is probably why he (and Capmark) were so upset with Judge Graves.


I don't think this is over by any means, as everyone still doubts Yashouafar can make this project work over time, so the positive spin is that we have local people ready to do something great with that complex and they will likely get another shot at it.

----------


## HangryHippo

Fantastic news, Pete.  Thanks for the exciting update!

----------


## Bellaboo

> This. Some of you guys are insane at times? I also agree with what Kerry said...
> 
> I'll rank these in order of how ready the developer may be at this point:
> 
> Devon's expansion..they may be locked and loaded
> Stage Center mixed-use redevelopment
> MidFirst headquarters..thinking it over for long enough
> *OG+E..really the wild card*ConocoPhillips..would require major state/city dealings
> Anyone else..last


Okay, I stated I'd called this out a while back and that it was purely speculation, I actually have a couple of former co-worker business analysts over there that told me a couple of years back that they were busting at the seams.

Like I said earlier, back in the 80's, they had proposed a 28 story tower.

----------


## Praedura

Thanks Pete. What a difference a day makes! First you bring me down, then you take me back up again, heh.

Well, 1 is ongoing and thus a certainty, 4 is largely what we've been assuming (yeah, that) for awhile -- just uncertain on the scope or timetable, and 5 is also pretty much assumed to be in the bag. But that's all good. Very good.

But 2, 3, and 6 are great items. Well, number 6 is still speculative, but let's hope something cool pans out there. Items 2 and 3 are awesome and do wonders for my optimism.

Item 7 is quite the sticking point. Will residential be added to the new parking garage on Main? Will other spots appear? There seems to be a number of places downtown that could support residential through renovations without new housing units being built. Though, of course, new residential buildings would be great.

About the OG&E expansion, do we know whether this is an addition, i.e. reside in both buildings, or is this intended to be a complete move with all workers/facilities in the new building and the old one abandoned? The latter possibility makes one wonder what would become of that old building.

----------


## Pete

There are definitely going to be proposals submitted for residential atop the new downtown parking garage.  Should be interesting to see what comes of that.  I think residential will continue to be the trailing development, i.e. comes after other large development is announced or finished in a particular area.

Have no idea about the particulars with OG&E, just they are seriously looking for a site downtown to build.

----------


## Bellaboo

Could #6 be Kaiser Francis Oil out of Tulsa ? They are a sister company to BOK.

OKC is becoming one of the bigger energy centers which may be the allure....

----------


## hoya

> There are definitely going to be proposals submitted for residential atop the new downtown parking garage.  Should be interesting to see what comes of that.  I think residential will continue to be the trailing development, i.e. comes after other large development is announced or finished in a particular area.
> 
> Have no idea about the particulars with OG&E, just they are seriously looking for a site downtown to build.


If they're looking for a site to build, I'd assume they'll be leaving their old building behind.  If they wanted to be separated out into multiple buildings I'm sure they could find space in Oklahoma Tower or somewhere else nearby.

This news is incredibly exciting.  I think it's great that it doesn't even take into account MidFirst bank.  And while the current rumors are that MidFirst has backed off the idea of moving, if Chesapeake gets sorted out and starts to expand again, MidFirst might start to look again.  I don't think it will happen soon, but that's potentially another tower in 10 years or so.

----------


## Spartan

> Okay, I stated I'd called this out a while back and that it was purely speculation, I actually have a couple of former co-worker business analysts over there that told me a couple of years back that they were busting at the seams.
> 
> Like I said earlier, back in the 80's, they had proposed a 28 story tower.


Well I think we've both gone back-and-forth on this in this very thread before. I had a family friend who is fairly high in OG+E idly mention that they want a downtown skyscraper. It also makes a lot of sense, but as previously concluded, they are a very weird company.

----------


## Pete

There seems to be a sense of a little urgency with some of these companies, in that they saw that Devon seized a fantastic opportunity and now has not only an amazing complex but was able to place it on what is a primo location.

The unique opportunity represented by the Stage Center site (and I do believe it is very unique and thus quite valuable) has flushed out several players, and maybe provided the motivation to move sooner rather than later.

With the CC seemingly set on the south side of Myriad Gardens, the better spots downtown are starting to get snatched up.  This realization may have motivated SandRidge to pull the trigger at 4th & EKG without any specific plans...  Just knowing that things are heating up and they didn't want to miss this window of opportunity.

We still have plenty of vacant and under-developed parcels all around but considering the compact nature of our CBD, I don't think anyone wants to be blazing completely new frontiers for a large corporate HQ...  At least without being able to link it pretty directly to existing infrastructure.

It seems the CBD is going to continue to grow concentrically, rather than a big new development being separated from the CBD by an "emerging" area.  And with that assumption, Continental, OG&E and others might not want to stay on the sidelines watching a few great opportunities taken by others.

----------


## G.Walker

A trend that I noticed with companies wanting to build new headquarters downtown bring an influx of employees downtown before they do so. So let's put this in perspective, Devon had employees downtown before they considered building a new tower, and now they have more coming. Continental has brought employees downtown and will now probably build. OG&E brought 400 Enogex workers downtown, and now they are going to build a new tower also. I would suspect OG&E and Enogex to occupy new headquarters. So a good thing would be to follow companies that  currently or recently moved to downtown.

----------


## Teo9969

If both OGE and Continental build downtown, then that leaves a lot of space open to be grabbed up by other companies. I think there is only so much support for local companies to build towers before it becomes more cost effective to lease/buy existing structures.

----------


## G.Walker

> Okay more information today and this is a bit more exciting.
> 
> OG&E is in the process of looking for a downtown site for a new HQ.  Don't know the building size or height but this is an active process where they have retained a national real estate firm to aid them in site selection.  It seems that this is almost certainly going to happen, it's just a matter of where, when and how tall.Something is going to happen on the Stage Center site and it may very well be a new HQ for Continental.  I hear they are definitely one of the companies making a bid on the site.  They are already out of space at the building they bought from Devon and as well all know, continuing to out-pace their very aggressive growth plans.  OG&E may make a bid as well.The Conoco / Phillips rumors are still out there.  They were definitely interested at one time and from what I'm hearing, this may still be a possibility.There has been info. flying around about Bank of Oklahoma for a while and they may be the "non-local" company looking to set up shop downtown.  More than likely, if they do something it may be for one of their affiliates / subsidiaries / business partners.
> 
> 
> So, let's recap and do some educated speculation:
> 
> 1. SandRidge is going to build a new tower just east of their existing 29-story HQ.  From all indications, it will be 15-20 floors.  I'm quite certain they don't want it to overwhelm their existing tower, as they have a large conference center on the 28th floor and the execs are on the 29th.  They have this setup to be the centerpiece of their holdings and I don't think they will do anything to change that.  The property they just acquired at 4th & EK Gaylord may not be for SandRidge's use but will be developed by SD or it's principals.
> 
> ...


Wow Pete, you and OKCTALK have provided us with more information in the last two days, than others have provided in the last year. OKCTALK is better than The Journal Record, Newsok.com, and OKC.biz combined! Keep it up!

----------


## hoya

> If both OGE and Continental build downtown, then that leaves a lot of space open to be grabbed up by other companies. I think there is only so much support for local companies to build towers before it becomes more cost effective to lease/buy existing structures.


That's true, but I think we're still talking about 5 or more years even if they announced today.  That's a lot of time for smaller companies to grow, and Devon by all accounts has really been pushing for more companies to move here.  I have a feeling that office space will be filled.

----------


## Pete

AND as more and more large companies come downtown and expand, they tend to attract affiliates and related businesses who want to be in close proximity.

As long as the existing buildings are willing to up their game and renovate, they should have plenty of interest from tenants.

----------


## Just the facts

> We still have plenty of vacant and under-developed parcels all around but considering the compact nature of our CBD, I don't think anyone wants to be blazing completely new frontiers for a large corporate HQ...  At least without being able to link it pretty directly to existing infrastructure.


I wish this would translate into the absence of radiant towers (office tower in a park); more City Place/FNC and less Sandridge Forest/Devon Green.

----------


## huskysooner

This is a strange coincidence, but my brother in law, who does not live in OKC nor follow real estate happenings here outside of what is in the Oklahoman, mentioned the OG&E downtown tower plans this weekend. He has two relatives that work for Enogex in Eastern OK and they told him that everyone at their company is "excited about the new downtown HQ." This totally caught me by surprise as I know he doesn't keep up with this stuff. He said they talked about it as if was openly discussed at Enogex. Take it for what it's worth.

----------


## Bellaboo

> This is a strange coincidence, but my brother in law, who does not live in OKC nor follow real estate happenings here outside of what is in the Oklahoman, mentioned the OG&E downtown tower plans this weekend. He has two relatives that work for Enogex in Eastern OK and they told him that everyone at their company is "excited about the new downtown HQ." This totally caught me by surprise as I know he doesn't keep up with this stuff. He said they talked about it as if was openly discussed at Enogex. Take it for what it's worth.


Enogex moved their HQ to Leadership Square in downtown this past year. Are you sure they are not talking about the new LS headquarters ?

----------


## Steve

> Wow Pete, you and OKCTALK have provided us with more information in the last two days, than others have provided in the last year. OKCTALK is better than The Journal Record, Newsok.com, and OKC.biz combined! Keep it up!


I think Pete will make it clear that he isn't bound by the same rules I am ... I'll just leave it at that.

----------


## gsan

I love this thread and love to hear all the new speculation. I did want to add a little. I have a friend that works at OG and E and has mentioned them possibly building a new head quarters downtown. I also have a friend that works at Devon and she had mentioned that they will be building an additional building and she believes it will be 30 stories. They have already bought the land under another name.
Take this all as a grain of salt, but the more I here the more I believe that there is truth in what my friends have told me.
This is all very exciting!

----------


## hoya

Well I feel left out.  But... I have a friend who works at 7/11 and apparently they're building a new one in Del City.  So there.

----------


## dankrutka

> I think Pete will make it clear that he isn't bound by the same rules I am ... I'll just leave it at that.


I don't think anyone could discount your contributions, Steve. And we understand the difference between this board and your job. We can post information based on speculation, but you have to maintain credibility with final, reliable information. We appreciate it.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I don't think anyone could discount your contributions, Steve. And we understand the difference between this board and your job. We can post information based on speculation, but you have to maintain credibility with final, reliable information. We appreciate it.


What he said.

Actually better if I'd just "Liked" KT's post, I suppose.

----------


## ljbab728

> About the OG&E expansion, do we know whether this is an addition, i.e. reside in both buildings, or is this intended to be a complete move with all workers/facilities in the new building and the old one abandoned? The latter possibility makes one wonder what would become of that old building.


I think the current OG&E building would be an excellent candidate for conversion to residential at some point.

----------


## Teo9969

> I think Pete will make it clear that he isn't bound by the same rules I am ... I'll just leave it at that.


To be sure, I don't think he was implying that Pete is somehow more informed than you, Steve. More the medium in which you operate is lesser than OKC Talk, which I would have to agree with him.

Considering that you throw your hat into many of the discussions that don't come up in the D.O. I think it's fair to say you're part of what makes OKC Talk the best source for news regarding major OKC development  :Wink: .

----------


## soonerguru

I'm trying to imagine downtown after the new hotel and apartment projects in Bricktown are done; after the new apartment project in Deep Deuce is done with the Aloft Hotel done; with two or three more significant highrise corporate towers; with The Edge project being finalized and Midtown exploding; with a functioning streetcar system; with a world-class Central Park. This is a stunning vision of the near future of our city. We are building a world-class downtown and it's very exciting.

----------


## dankrutka

> To be sure, I don't think he was implying that Pete is somehow more informed than you, Steve. More the medium in which you operate is lesser than OKC Talk, which I would have to agree with him.
> 
> Considering that you throw your hat into many of the discussions that don't come up in the D.O. I think it's fair to say you're part of what makes OKC Talk the best source for news regarding major OKC development .


I'm not sure this is fair (maybe you were kidding?). Both OKCTalk and the Oklahoman have their roles. I'm not sure one is better than the other. They serve different functions. A lot of this new info was still gleaned from Steve's recent article...

----------


## huskysooner

> Enogex moved their HQ to Leadership Square in downtown this past year. Are you sure they are not talking about the new LS headquarters ?


I'm sure. I asked him about this specifically after letting him know that Enogex moved several hundred employees downtown last year. He specifically mentioned a NEW headquarters building.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm sure. I asked him about this specifically after letting him know that Enogex moved several hundred employees downtown last year. He specifically mentioned a NEW headquarters building.


Thanks, I'm surprised a rendering or more specifics aren't out there yet.

----------


## hoya

> I'm trying to imagine downtown after the new hotel and apartment projects in Bricktown are done; after the new apartment project in Deep Deuce is done with the Aloft Hotel done; with two or three more significant highrise corporate towers; with The Edge project being finalized and Midtown exploding; with a functioning streetcar system; with a world-class Central Park. This is a stunning vision of the near future of our city. We are building a world-class downtown and it's very exciting.


The most exciting thing is that our downtown was so stagnant for so long.  Seeing this kind of growth is amazing.

Deep Deuce is really our first urban neighborhood.  As these apartments start filling up, we'll basically be going from a downtown population of zero to one of several thousand.  All the things we have wanted downtown, like grocery stores, retail, etc, will follow because we'll have a local population that can support them.  The increased density will lead to higher quality projects.  We won't have any more Legacy Apartments.  My kids (which I don't have yet) will grow up in a much different Oklahoma City than I grew up in.

----------


## Pete

> I'm trying to imagine downtown after the new hotel and apartment projects in Bricktown are done; after the new apartment project in Deep Deuce is done with the Aloft Hotel done; with two or three more significant highrise corporate towers; with The Edge project being finalized and Midtown exploding; with a functioning streetcar system; with a world-class Central Park. This is a stunning vision of the near future of our city. We are building a world-class downtown and it's very exciting.


The cool thing all this is very real, not just some pie-in-the-sky hope.

As the gaps are filled in and inbetween our various central city districts, we will see the urban fabric starting to be knit together and that's when the city will be truly transformed and be a continual catalyst for even bigger and better things.

Very, very exciting to think about and the toughest part is just being patient because we all want everything NOW.   :Smile:

----------


## catch22

> The cool thing all this is very real, not just some pie-in-the-sky hope.
> 
> As the gaps are filled in and inbetween our various central city districts, we will see the urban fabric starting to be knit together and that's when the city will be truly transformed and be a continual catalyst for even bigger and better things.
> 
> Very, very exciting to think about and the toughest part is just being patient because we all want everything NOW.


Very exciting times indeed. In my opinion, the ball is just now starting to roll.

----------


## Just the facts

I'm trying to remember, what is the problem with Legacy Apartments?  I know they weren't built as proposed and some people don't like the building material, but other than that what is wrong with them?

----------


## Pete

> I'm trying to remember, what is problem with Legacy Apartments?  I know they weren't built as proposed and some people don't like the building material, but other than that what is wrong with them?


Huge gap between what was promised and what was actually built.  Also, the developer (Mike Henderson) missed many deadlines and was still allowed to control and develop the property, then promptly sold it for a big profit.

The final product is about 90% EIFS and the retail on the ground floor has the ugliest green awnings with HUGE lettering.  The net impression is not good at all, which is scary considering this is a new development.

Still, they seem to stay leased.

----------


## Just the facts

If any downtown complex is an urban disaster it is Sycamore Square.  But they stay full as well.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Huge gap between what was promised and what was actually built.  Also, the developer (Mike Henderson) missed many deadlines and was still allowed to control and develop the property, then promptly sold it for a big profit.
> 
> The final product is about 90% EIFS and the retail on the ground floor has the ugliest green awnings with HUGE lettering.  The net impression is not good at all, which is scary considering this is a new development.
> 
> Still, they seem to stay leased.


Is there any way for the exterior to be redone?  The awnings could easily be replaced, but what can be done about that hideous exterior?

----------


## catch22

From a pure urban *form*standpoint, Legacy is OK. 

Sustainability and aesthetics.......

----------


## soonerguru

> I'm trying to remember, what is the problem with Legacy Apartments?  I know they weren't built as proposed and some people don't like the building material, but other than that what is wrong with them?


They look like they belong at 122nd and Penn. FUGLY.

----------


## Pete

Doing something with the awnings would be a good start.

The EIFS could be painted to breakup the monolithic mass of beige cheapness.  And of course, another exterior finish could be applied, but that's certainly not going to happen any time soon.

They also used high-pitched gables for the roof all the way around and that always conveys a distinctly suburban feel, and I'm afraid we're stuck with that forever.

----------


## okcpulse

> Doing something with the awnings would be a good start.
> 
> The EIFS could be painted to breakup the monolithic mass of beige cheapness.  And of course, another exterior finish could be applied, but that's certainly not going to happen any time soon.
> 
> They also used high-pitched gables for the roof all the way around and that always conveys a distinctly suburban feel, and I'm afraid we're stuck with that forever.


If I wasn't well-versed in Oklahoma City I would confuse that street for May Avenue in the Quail Springs area.   :Smile:

----------


## Just the facts

I was wondering if someone was going to mention the roof line.  At first I thought urban roof needed to be flat but after reading The Geography of Nowhere and thinking about it more, I realized that pitched roofs on residential is more common and historically significant than I thought.

I think the problem isn't the roof line, it is the monolithic exterior (as was also pointed out).  We need more variation in the building material and more finishing detail.

Amsterdam


Brussels


London


Paris


Given the blank slate Legacy is now it could easily become one the most decorative buildings in OKC.  Maybe when they have to compete for tenants they will step it up.

----------


## Just the facts

One of the big problems is size.  Legacy was all built by one entity, but that same street frontage 100 years of ago would have had 10 different structures built by 10 different people.  Look at the Preftakes block and the Devon block.  Devon takes up the entire super block and is all exactly the same and how many different buildings are on the Preftakes block – 15?  Is building on a smaller scale just not economically feasible now?  If not, why not?

----------


## Teo9969

> If I wasn't well-versed in Oklahoma City I would confuse that street for May Avenue in the Quail Springs area.


I'd agree with you, except ever since really following this site, I've realized how suburban those areas are.

It's going to take 50 years or more, but it would be incredible if some day everything on May Avenue were pushed reasonably close to the street. It's possibly the most business dense street in all of OKC (particularly the 5 miles between 23rd and Wilshire).

----------


## CaptDave

> Is building on a smaller scale just not economically feasible now?  If not, why not?


This is what I want to explore. Even for someone simply wanting to build a small bungalow/cottage downtown, is the ground prohibitively expensive? When compared to greenfield developments, the city basically giving away infrastructure has made it significantly more cost effective for developers and individuals alike to build outside the city core. Since the sewer, water, etc is already in place downtown, why does it seem lots cost so much more? Simple demand? 

Is this why suburban office parks will continue to be built? Is this the main impediment to affordable downtown residential? Where does one "break even" on the land cost when building vertical? I really need to spend some time working with an experienced developer to learn some of this stuff.

----------


## tucy

Can you put any more meat on the bones of the ConocoPhillips rumors?  With respect, we all know the rumors are still out there (and being spread here), but there are rumors worth paying attention to and there are rumors that are pretty easily dismissed upon examination.

I noted that you did not specify headquarters.  Are the rumors specifically with reference to a headquarters relocation (which is NOT happening), or are they possibly with reference to an expansion and relocation of the existing OKC regional office (which seems well within the realm of possibility)?

(As an aside, if a headquarters relocation were ever going to have happened it probably needed to have happened at the time of or before the split, while James Mulva (former Phillips chairman) was still chairman.  Now ConocoPhillips has nobody on their board or senior executive ranks with any Oklahoma connections.)

----------


## Jesseda

Okay I was at my churchs harvest festival this past weekend and I asked one of the church member who worked on the devon tower. I asked him if there was anymore talk about some new tall buildings in downtown and he responded " funny you should ask because my boss told me just last week to get ready to be busy for the next few years downtown he said that they will be working on the new Continental HQ downtown and possibly another large project after that". Now I trust this man, and there would be no reason to lie to me about something like this.

----------


## G.Walker

A couple years ago I mentioned on here Continental would probably be next to build new tower downtown, and most people thought I was crazy...

----------


## hoya

If Continental is growing as quickly as people say, and they've already filled 19 floors and need more room, then if they're going to build they probably build for the future and go bigger than they currently need.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think we might get a 30-40 story building out of this.  Perhaps I'm letting my excitement get the better of me, but if they're going to spend the money to build, why not?

----------


## G.Walker

I can see Continental Resources building new tower on Stage Center site. They have a very good relationship with Devon, and it makes sense for them to be right next to them. I wonder if they would use the same architect as Devon to design new tower? I would suspect they would announce something in early 2013, and start construction in early 2014. Then we are looking at 3 years for construction and move in, so that puts them to 2017, 5 years from now, which would be on target with their expected growth.

----------


## Just the facts

> This is what I want to explore. Even for someone simply wanting to build a small bungalow/cottage downtown, is the ground prohibitively expensive? When compared to greenfield developments, the city basically giving away infrastructure has made it significantly more cost effective for developers and individuals alike to build outside the city core. Since the sewer, water, etc is already in place downtown, why does it seem lots cost so much more? Simple demand? 
> 
> Is this why suburban office parks will continue to be built? Is this the main impediment to affordable downtown residential? Where does one "break even" on the land cost when building vertical? I really need to spend some time working with an experienced developer to learn some of this stuff.


Let me know what you come up with.  If I had 100K to start with could I not build a 5 to 8 story small footprint building with ground floor retail, second floor office, and 3 to 6 levels of residential (12 to 24 units)?  I wouldn't have any interest in providing parking.

----------


## Bellaboo

> If Continental is growing as quickly as people say, and they've already filled 19 floors and need more room, then if they're going to build they probably build for the future and go bigger than they currently need.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think we might get a 30-40 story building out of this.  Perhaps I'm letting my excitement get the better of me, but if they're going to spend the money to build, why not?


I'd go out on a limb with a 40 - 48 story prediction, knowing that their growth has accelerated, and here we go again, there could be some political clout going on with Harold Hamm.

Harold Hamm was at Devon's grand opening with the rest of the big oilies.......His ego is probably up there with the rest of them and might just be a Jones factor getting ready to happen.

----------


## hoya

> Let me know what you come up with.  If I had 100K to start with could I not build a 5 to 8 story small footprint building with ground floor retail, second floor office, and 3 to 6 levels of residential (12 to 24 units)?  I wouldn't have any interest in providing parking.


I'd love it if we could get a cost estimate on how much it would cost to build something just like that.  How much to build a new brick building, 5-8 stories tall, with a footprint of maybe Carpenter Square? That might even be a bit bigger than you're talking about, but I think it would be quite feasible for most developers.

----------


## CaptDave

I am going to try to learn more about this stuff in the coming months. I will share whatever I can learn. If I had unlimited funds, I would spend a lot of time refurbishing small to medium sized buildings downtown and developing new construction sites. I can learn anything a developer is willing to teach/share, but alas, I still lack the unlimited funds.

----------


## Teo9969

The only thing that makes me wary of an announcement coming soon is that by many accounts, we're looking at another recession in 2013. It would be nice to have an idea of the magnitude of that recession before plans are announced. I would hate to see Continental announce a 45 story tower, get our hopes and, and end up with a 30 story tower.

----------


## Bellaboo

> The only thing that makes me wary of an announcement coming soon is that by many accounts, we're looking at another recession in 2013. It would be nice to have an idea of the magnitude of that recession before plans are announced. I would hate to see Continental announce a 45 story tower, get our hopes and, and end up with a 30 story tower.


I have close immediate family who own 2 small oil companies. They told me the other day that oil would never go below $70 in their opinion and that NG is only going to go up from this point on. Let's hope for our local economy's sake that this holds true.

----------


## BDP

> The only thing that makes me wary of an announcement coming soon is that by many accounts, we're looking at another recession in 2013. It would be nice to have an idea of the magnitude of that recession before plans are announced. I would hate to see Continental announce a 45 story tower, get our hopes and, and end up with a 30 story tower.


Well, even at 30 stories, that's around the height of the Chase building by today's standards. Still a decent sized project that would add to the skyline.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> The only thing that makes me wary of an announcement coming soon is that by many accounts, we're looking at another recession in 2013. It would be nice to have an idea of the magnitude of that recession before plans are announced. I would hate to see Continental announce a 45 story tower, get our hopes and, and end up with a 30 story tower.


If said companies have plenty of extra cash to build and still grow, even during a recession, like Devon, then they're going to weather the storm and Oklahoma City will continue to do so as well.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Construction labor is cheap during a recession, or before, if corporations really see one coming.  All in the timing.

----------


## Rover

> Let me know what you come up with.  If I had 100K to start with could I not build a 5 to 8 story small footprint building with ground floor retail, second floor office, and 3 to 6 levels of residential (12 to 24 units)?  I wouldn't have any interest in providing parking.


$100 k total?  At 8 floors your footprint would be about 12 x 12.  Then take out floors space for elevators, fire escape stairs, hvac ducting, mechanical rooms, etc and you might have room to turn around on each floor.

----------


## Just the facts

Well, I assume 100K in cash would translate into a $500,000 construction loan at 80/20.

I am thinking of something 1606 Walnut St in Philadelphia.  24 feet wide and 6 stories tall.

----------


## tucy

> If Continental is growing as quickly as people say, and they've already filled 19 floors and need more room, then if they're going to build they probably build for the future and go bigger than they currently need.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think we might get a 30-40 story building out of this.  Perhaps I'm letting my excitement get the better of me, but if they're going to spend the money to build, why not?


Keep in mind that Continental has NOT filled 19 floors.  The law firm still occupies the top 4 floors of the building.  So IF Continental has in fact filled all their space, it is just a little more than 14 floors of space they have filled (and it's also a building with a relatively small footprint).

----------


## Pete

Continental leases space in Chase Tower as well.

----------


## soonerguru

> The only thing that makes me wary of an announcement coming soon is that by many accounts, we're looking at another recession in 2013. It would be nice to have an idea of the magnitude of that recession before plans are announced. I would hate to see Continental announce a 45 story tower, get our hopes and, and end up with a 30 story tower.


So? That is not going to hurt oil and gas companies. Also, if there is a recession, which is unlikely next year, it would only make construction materials cheaper.

----------


## 1972ford

I wonder if our low unemployment rate is holding off companies from wanting to relocate here or affecting decisions otherwise

----------


## Just the facts

> I wonder if our low unemployment rate is holding off companies from wanting to relocate here or affecting decisions otherwise


I guess that would depend on if a company needs a steady supply of the unemployed.  If the unemployment rate was higher we would have a better chance and landing the first soylent green factory.

----------


## Pete

> Keep in mind that Continental has NOT filled 19 floors.  The law firm still occupies the top 4 floors of the building.  So IF Continental has in fact filled all their space, it is just a little more than 14 floors of space they have filled (and it's also a building with a relatively small footprint).


The current Continental building has 17,200 square feet per floor.

By way of comparison, Chase Tower has 15,500 and Oklahoma Tower 19,790.

----------


## Bellaboo

Here's a thought, good or bad.

OG&E can look no further for a site for their new HQ. They already own one, all they need to do is move the existing substation south of the arena and the land is ready, it's in their name.  lol

----------


## Just the facts

> Here's a thought, good or bad.
> 
> OG&E can look no further for a site for their new HQ. They already own one, all they need to do is move the existing substation south of the arena and the land is ready, it's in their name.  lol


For a $30 million relocation assitance package I am sure they would be happy to do that.  Or, CLR builds a new tower and moves into it, then sells their current tower to OG&E.

----------


## Bellaboo

> For a $30 million relocation assitance package I am sure they would be happy to do that.  Or, CLR builds a new tower and moves into it, then sells their current tower to OG&E.


I think the old Devon tower will then become the new incubator of OKC HQ's.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Doing something with the awnings would be a good start.
> 
> The EIFS could be painted to breakup the monolithic mass of beige cheapness.  And of course, another exterior finish could be applied, but that's certainly not going to happen any time soon.
> 
> They also used high-pitched gables for the roof all the way around and that always conveys a distinctly suburban feel, and I'm afraid we're stuck with that forever.





> I was wondering if someone was going to mention the roof line.  At first I thought urban roof needed to be flat but after reading The Geography of Nowhere and thinking about it more, I realized that pitched roofs on residential is more common and historically significant than I thought.
> 
> I think the problem isn't the roof line, it is the monolithic exterior (as was also pointed out).  We need more variation in the building material and more finishing detail.
> 
> Amsterdam
> 
> 
> Brussels
> 
> ...


You know I am far from an "urbanist" but, holy hell, the Legacy DOES look out of place. lol.

My first thought was to AT LEAST go with some multicolor paint to simulate the look of that Amsterdam pic...  SOMETHING to break up that white space... and with the amount of corners on the structure I would think you could easily do that without making it look too blatant.

EDIT:  I'm thinking even this would look better than what it is currently...  Crimson Park apartments in Norman

----------


## CaptDave

I agree - Legacy would be much improved with modern "classier" (for lack of a better word) awnings and some color on those huge expanses of blank wall.  The building itself isn't _that_ terrible but they definitely went cheap with the finish.

----------


## Pete

Guys, we are way, way off topic here.

Thanks.

----------


## HangryHippo

Driving around this morning I noticed that Level's exterior is similar (read on before you lose your mind over such blasphemy) in their exterior colors on the upper floors.  They both have exterior brick for the first floor.  Level's brick is a much more appropriate shade in my opinion as I hate the color brick that Legacy used.  But I think the awnings on Level show what a nice change it would be if Legacy redid their awnings.  But in thinking about these two developments, I realized that the white exterior on Level is what I dislike the most.  They did spice areas of it up with bits of color here and there, but I just don't like white stucco-esque finishes.  But the ground floor is what really separates Level and Legacy for me, even though with their bones, they've very similar.

----------


## jccouger

So we just got all this delicious amazing info from pete on 8+ towers and you guys are talking about legacy apartments....

It appears that almost all of the 8 points you made have very legitimate legs, I can't help but to count my chickens before the "official" announcements. As far as I see it these are chances (completely made up) of each happening in the next 5 years.


Convention Hotel -100%
Sandridge - 100%
Continental - 99%
OGE - 99%
Devon - 99%
Highrise residential - 80%
Other Hotels - 80%
BOK/Conoco phillips - >2%


That is at least 7 buildings practically GUARANTEED, when this could actually be more if there are multiple highrise residential or hotel buildings built. This is very exciting!!!

----------


## Pete

Even though the BOK/Conoco stuff is very foggy and long shots when considered individually, there is certainly a non-local company actively looking for a downtown HQ -- we just don't know who it is.

I've heard multiple times from multiple credible sources that a non-local company is almost certain to build downtown, and I wouldn't be surprised if that news comes out before anything else.

----------


## Praedura

> So we just got all this delicious amazing info from pete on 8+ towers and you guys are talking about legacy apartments....
> 
> It appears that almost all of the 8 points you made have very legitimate legs, I can't help but to count my chickens before the "official" announcements. As far as I see it these are chances (completely made up) of each happening in the next 5 years.
> 
> 
> Convention Hotel -100%
> Sandridge - 100%
> Continental - 99%
> OGE - 99%
> ...


I basically agree. Although, based on what I've read in this forum and elsewhere, I would set the percentages more like this:

Convention Hotel -100%
Sandridge - 100%
Other Hotels - 100% (assuming this includes bricktown/DD/midtown)
Devon - 98%
Continental - 90%
OGE - 80%
Highrise residential - 50% (because of possibility in new parkage garage, otherwise much lower)
BOK/Conoco phillips - >1%

Anyway, I'm definitely with you on the excitement of all this!

----------


## Jesseda

> Even though the BOK/Conoco stuff is very foggy and long shots when considered individually, there is certainly a non-local company actively looking for a downtown HQ -- we just don't know who it is.
> 
> I've heard multiple times from multiple credible sources that a non-local company is almost certain to building downtown, and I wouldn't be surprised if that news comes out before anything else.


I wonder if they mean non local as in not it okc or as in the united states? wasnt there rumors of a company in Mexico looking to build a HQ out in this area?

----------


## Pete

Non-local just means not currently HQ'd in OKC.

I have absolutely no idea if that means outside of the U.S. but odds are they would be someone already in this region.

----------


## PhiAlpha

ConocoPhillips could just be looking into moving their Bartlesville personnel here, that would probably seem more plausible.

----------


## jedicurt

with BOK being as involved with as many energy companies as they are... i have a feeling that the info about them is probably true, just i don't think they are moving from Tulsa... i think they will be the purchasers on behalf of a company that they have dealings with.   Which could be anything from a Kaiser Francis or one of the other smaller energy companies, to something as large as Conoco Phillips.

I'm saying there is 0.000% chance that BOK is moving their offices here, but i do believe that they very well and probably are working on the behalf of one of their clients that they work with regularly

----------


## jedicurt

> I wonder if they mean non local as in not it okc or as in the united states? wasnt there rumors of a company in Mexico looking to build a HQ out in this area?


Cemex out of Mexico...  and i don't know if there were any rumors, or just hopes that it would happen.

----------


## Just the facts

Just for fun I decided to go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read it.  Let me save everyone a lot of future typing.

towercount = towercount +1
2042 goto 1
Run

----------


## jccouger

I just think there is too much $$$ to be made with a highrise residential building for a tycoon to pass up. Everytime residential is built in the core it is quickly snatched up. A 25-30 story highrise apartment/condo building would be THE premiere place to live in the greater OKC metro area. I would imagine it having at least 95% occupancy within 1 year tops. 

I could see Devon possibly building one close to or on their campus, especially if they are considering building some kind of medical center. It could serve as basically a incredibly fancy dormitory for employees of multiple Energy companies to network and build relationships with.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Cemex out of Mexico...  and i don't know if there were any rumors, or just hopes that it would happen.


That might have been Centek  (sp) that did build a HQ here, and just a small mfg along with it. Oil field equip.

----------


## G.Walker

> I just think there is too much $$$ to be made with a highrise residential building for a tycoon to pass up. Everytime residential is built in the core it is quickly snatched up. A 25-30 story highrise apartment/condo building would be THE premiere place to live in the greater OKC metro area. I would imagine it having at least 95% occupancy within 1 year tops. 
> 
> I could see Devon possibly building one close to or on their campus, especially if they are considering building some kind of medical center. It could serve as basically a incredibly fancy dormitory for employees of multiple Energy companies to network and build relationships with.


IDK, the most recent Downtown Housing Study is promoting low-rise residential developments (3-4 stories) for the CBD. The next big residential development will probably be West Park in C2S, but everything I have seen so far is that this will just be Deep Deuce 2. I would like for high-rise residential to come, but as long as we keep building low-rise developments like The Edge and LEVEL we get further away.

----------


## Teo9969

OGE seems more like 65% to me. As soon as Continental and Devon announce new towers, that will open up a decent amount of current office space, and I bet OGE just fills that.

----------


## dankrutka

Yeah. It's an exciting time, but to put a lot of these at 99% is a little too much. Deals fall though, companies change, the economy changes. Until something is announced and construction starts, I wouldn't even put any of those above 80%, which is really great odds!

----------


## sroberts24

Nothing in my mind in 99% unless they are literally breaking ground, and that is still closer to a 95% in my book.

----------


## Thundercitizen

There is no "100%" building until it shows up on Google Maps.

----------


## Just the facts

> Nothing in my mind in 99% unless they are literally breaking ground, and that is still closer to a 95% in my book.


There is an office tower in suburban Orlando that has been 99% done for 12 years.  I can't believe how close they were to finishing it - but it just sits there wasting away.

Seminole's tallest building almost a decade old ? and still not finished - Orlando Sentinel




> *November 25, 2010*|By Mary Shanklin, Orlando Sentinel
> ALTAMONTE SPRINGS — A lot of things have come to pass since work began a decade ago on a Christian TV station's 18-story office tower alongside Interstate 4 here — but completion of the high-profile structure isn't one of them.
> 
> Construction started in February 2001 on SuperChannel 55's Majesty Building — the tallest building in Seminole County and possibly the highest between Orlando and Jacksonville — and the complex was initially expected to be completed within two years. Local property appraisers suspect the blue-glass shell, its lower floors still open to the elements, is now one of the longest-running office-construction jobs anywhere in the state.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

You might as well add the tower in Tulsa at Oral Roberts. The top 20 or so floors are yet to be constructed in a sense of how the top floors looked in the movie Die Hard.

----------


## jedicurt

> in a sense of how the top floors looked in the movie Die Hard.


Littered with the corpses of German Terrorist/Thieves???

----------


## Dubya61

This is simply feeding y'all's optimism with pure speculation, I know, but everytime someone mentions a ConocoPhillips move to OKC, I think of Chesapeake's new Chairman.  I wonder if his presence here (did he move here?) has anything to do with the rumors or likelihood.

----------


## ABryant

> There is an office tower in suburban Orlando that has been 99% done for 12 years.  I can't believe how close they were to finishing it - but it just sits there wasting away.
> 
> Seminole's tallest building almost a decade old ? and still not finished - Orlando Sentinel


Wow. That's what you get when you build a building in an empty wasteland. It reminds me of the feeling i get when I drive buy the OPUBCO dark tower in OKC. Why would you build there?

----------


## Just the facts

> Wow. That's what you get when you build a building in an empty wasteland. It reminds me of the feeling i get when I drive buy the OPUBCO dark tower in OKC. Why would you build there?


Who knows what they were thinking, or even if they were thinking.  Like OKC, the trend in most cities is moving everything back to the urban core.  Downtown Orlando has added multiple towers while this one sits there.

----------


## Skyline

It still surprises me that American Fidelity chose to buy OPUBCO and will be making a move to this location. For a company that is already invested in downtown community to make this move seems strange. Midfirst on the other hand would have seemed like a better fit for the OPUBCO considering their current location.

----------


## Just the facts

I still think over next 10 years AF is going to say Doh! to that move.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I still think over next 10 years AF is going to say Doh! to that move.


doubtfull

----------


## Pete

> It still surprises me that American Fidelity chose to buy OPUBCO and will be making a move to this location. For a company that is already invested in downtown community to make this move seems strange. Midfirst on the other hand would have seemed like a better fit for the OPUBCO considering their current location.


American Fidelity already owned adjacent land, so they had been looking to move there for some time.  They almost built out there earlier.

They got a lot of great property for a pretty good price and it suits their needs.

As much as I'd love to see them build downtown, it was a smart business decision on their part prompted by a unique opportunity.

----------


## HangryHippo

Why did the Oklahoman build out that far in the first place?  Did they need the land for the press or what was it?

I'm skeptical that AF looks back and thinks it was a poor idea, but I do think it was a misstep to leave downtown and that area.  I still hold out hope MidFirst comes downtown in spite of turning away CHK's offers.  Should've taken them up on it.

----------


## catch22

> Why did the Oklahoman build out that far in the first place?  Did they need the land for the press or what was it?


To bury reporters who revealed their sources or to bury sources who provided fake information.  :Smile:  nothing like a little land on the country side!

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Why did the Oklahoman build out that far in the first place?  Did they need the land for the press or what was it?
> 
> I'm skeptical that AF looks back and thinks it was a poor idea, but I do think it was a misstep to leave downtown and that area.  I still hold out hope MidFirst comes downtown in spite of turning away CHK's offers.  Should've taken them up on it.


They probably needed space for their massive printing facility. There isn't much land closer to downtown that could've accommodated it, especially at the low price they probably got it for. 

As far as AF regretting the decision, I seriously doubt it. I know it's hard to believe but not everyone wants to be downtown. This is a good location between Edmond and Downtown which is probably right in the middle of where most of its employees live. It's better than downtown for employees that live in Edmond...20-30 minutes less time in bumper to bumper traffic on 235 between 7:30 and 8 or a quick entrance from 35 off britton for people on the east side on Edmond.

----------


## PhiAlpha

Don't get me wrong, it would've been much cooler for them to have built downtown, but there are benefits to both locations.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Don't get me wrong, it would've been much cooler for them to have built downtown, but there are benefits to both locations.


No doubt.  I just sometimes get to thinking about how nice it would be if OKC's employers centered around downtown, a big game of what if (the Valliance Bank Tower, Founder's Tower, and the Oklahoman buildings were downtown, or if Baptist and Mercy had built around the OUHSC and St. Anthony's to give us a medical district like Houston) those types of silly games.

----------


## Pete

It is important to note that other than Chesapeake, all the significant new office space is being built and remodeled downtown.

There seems to be a strong trend towards the city core and away from the suburbs, although both will always be needed.

----------


## jccouger

Man, a lot of yall are really negative. I swear some of yall would let your house fill up with smoke and wait until you actually were burned until you believed it was on fire. 

I'll choose to put my faith in Mark Beffort, Steve Lackmeyer and Pete Ownerofokctalk over a bunch of negative nancys. Of course I realize nothing can ever be "100%", nothing in life is, but when there are this many signs pointing to an outcome you should probably follow them.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> It is important to note that other than Chesapeake, all the significant new office space is being built and remodeled downtown.
> 
> There seems to be a strong trend towards the city core and away from the suburbs, although both will always be needed.


True and I think that's definitely a good trend. It's just a little annoying when people act like companies are stupid for deciding not to move downtown. I'm sure AF put a lot of planning an thought into their move i dont think it was a knee jerk decision. 

Onlyone, I have often thought about the NW Expressway towers were built downtown too. It would definitely improved the skyline.

----------


## Just the facts

> Onlyone, I have often thought about the NW Expressway towers were built downtown too. It would definitely improved the skyline.


Not as much as you might think.  A couple of years ago someone on OKCTalk moved them downtown in a simulation and they were so small you couldn't even see them.  They only look big because there is nothing around them to compare them to.  It would have an impact at the sidewalk level but Valliance Bank Tower is about the same height at the old Pioneer Telephone building as is very skinny compared to other downtown buildings.

----------


## metro

> So? That is not going to hurt oil and gas companies. Also, if there is a recession, which is unlikely next year, it would only make construction materials cheaper.


youre not accounting for inflation

----------


## Spartan

> There is an office tower in suburban Orlando that has been 99% done for 12 years.  I can't believe how close they were to finishing it - but it just sits there wasting away.
> 
> Seminole's tallest building almost a decade old ? and still not finished - Orlando Sentinel


Next time you're in OKC you should drive the west Kilpatrick Turnpike.

----------


## Dubya61

> Next time you're in OKC you should drive the west Kilpatrick Turnpike.


For those of us who hate guessing games, can you tell me what you're refering to?

----------


## Spartan

A half-built structural frame for an office building.. I forget, was it Seagate? Something like that..

----------


## metro

> A half-built structural frame for an office building.. I forget, was it Seagate? Something like that..


No, Owens Corning Fiber Optic plant, big deal its like 4 stories, and just the steel only. not near as a blunder as this Orlando tower

----------


## Spartan

Well, that's because we occupy our blunders -> OPUBCO

...and love mediocrity. No other metro is building strip malls like we have for the last 5 years (esp if you throw out metros in distasteful places like Florida).

----------


## soonerguru

> youre not accounting for inflation


Yes I am.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Well, that's because we occupy our blunders -> OPUBCO
> 
> ...and love mediocrity. No other metro is building strip malls like we have for the last 5 years (esp if you throw out metros in distasteful places like Florida).


So, for the life of me I can't figure out why you are so interested in OKC... given how dumb, lackluster, and devoid of taste you think we are. lol

----------


## Spartan

> So, for the life of me I can't figure out why you are so interested in OKC... given how dumb, lackluster, and devoid of taste you think we are. lol


Just want it to be better than Wichita

----------


## metro

> Yes I am.


How much will inflation be in 2013, be precise please.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Who thinks this thread will be longer than the Devon Tower thread?

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Who thinks this thread will be longer than the Devon Tower thread?


Good point.  Hopefully, this thread never dies.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Just want it to be better than Wichita


OKC is already quite a bit better than Wichita.  Is that the level of city you think should be OKC's goal to be better than? lol

Your attempt at trolling is not only lame, but quite ineffective.  Especially considering I couldn't wait to move from Wichita to the OKC area and did so full-time about 11 years ago.  Yes, I actually LIVE HERE.  But, I also don't feel like this is a place full of dumb, lackluster people devoid of taste.

Oh, and even IF your little attempted jab at me was even close to being something that would work... it only proves that you thrive and wallow in nothing but negativity.

Sooo... you got anything else sparky?  Any other explanation why you are so concerned with a city comprised of people you find so beneath your level of taste and sensibility?

----------


## Teo9969

> Good point.  Hopefully, this thread never dies.


I hope it dies tomorrow with 5 official announcements, and we can start a new thread in 12 months when even more new towers are being speculated.

----------


## CaptDave

> So, for the life of me I can't figure out why you are so interested in OKC... given how dumb, lackluster, and devoid of taste you think we are. lol


Spartan = Moriarty   :Big Grin:

----------


## Just the facts

One of the all time great war movies.

----------


## Lafferty Daniel

> Spartan = Moriarty


haha, I've always thought of Spartan as the guy in the ponytail in this scene. And that everyone else on OKCTalk is Matt Damon:

----------


## CaptDave

I'm just poking a little fun at Spartan. I like his enthusiasm even if from his angle the glass looks half empty. Most people realize things are not too bad here and the areas with room for improvement are being addressed.

----------


## Praedura

> I hope it dies tomorrow with 5 official announcements, and we can start a new thread in 12 months when even more new towers are being speculated.


Only 5?
 :Wink:

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I hope it dies tomorrow with 5 official announcements, and we can start a new thread in 12 months when even more new towers are being speculated.


...it would be the same thread. Always room for more here!  :Smile:

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm just poking a little fun at Spartan. I like his enthusiasm even if from his angle the glass looks half empty. Most people realize things are not too bad here and the areas with room for improvement are being addressed.


If you've ever gone out to other cities threads where they are ripping OKC out of jealousy, Spartan is ripping them right back on the good things about OKC......He just wants OKC, as all of us do, to be better.

I can think of the ABQ site off the top a few years back.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

We need to have a thread that provides easy access links to these other websites. Id like to compare prides.

----------


## Teo9969

> We need to have a thread that provides easy access links to these other websites. Id like to compare prides.


I'd really like to see a list of other sites that are ______ city's respective "OKC Talk" It would be really helpful in taking a trip to see the different things that the locals *really* care about, see progress in progress, ask questions about things to do without having to google and see what a bunch of other tourists or journalists say.

----------


## Just the facts

A lot of cities don't have an OKCTalk equivalent and the ones that do are near as well maintained and monitored like OKCTalk is.

----------


## Bellaboo

> A lot of cities don't have an OKCTalk equivalent and the ones that do are near as well maintained and monitored like OKCTalk is.


You can find them by looking for a regions architectural's forums. I know there is one in the DFW area.

----------


## Just the facts

Maybe it is time for Pete to expand is his talk empire.

BoiseTalk
SacTalk
AustinTalk
KCTalk
etc...

----------


## ILoveMalania

I know this doesn't involve a mystery tower and I appologize for interrupting this thread, but do any of you remember this beautiful piece of architecture? All the talk of "what ifs" about the OKC skyline got me thinking.



Built in 1932 The Biltmore Hotel was 33 stories tall and at the time, the states largest building. It was on the corner of Harvey and Grand.
My father has photos in sequence of the implosion. Maybe someday I can find them again.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

See I'm not the only one who posts old photos and has a great interest.  :Smile: 

I have a couple dozen photos of it including the implosion ones. That's for another thread though.

----------


## Teo9969

Anybody know how many 10+ story buildings have been razed in OKC?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Commerce Exchange Building

----------


## UnFrSaKn

This is going to get way off topic...

Many, many in the 7-8 story range. 




Herskowitz Building

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Huckins Hotel


Kingkade Hotel

----------


## ILoveMalania

I'm sorry I got us way off topic. I just think all of the "what would the skyline look like if" is interesting. People may recognize the land the Biltmore was on today as the Myriad Gardens. It would have looked cool seeing it and the Devon side by side. Old school and new school. I hope we do get more hi-rise buildings. They make great photos. =)

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Midwest Theatre

----------


## kevinpate

enjoying the old buildings, besides, in a speculation threas, it's easy enough to ask, should new construction for new towers, when they get announcedm mimic the past, or be fresh, even edgy?

see, back on topic already.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Then there was this one...




"Local Federal Savings and Loan Association, 201-207 N. Robinson Ave., Oklahoma City"

----------


## Just the facts

> Anybody know how many 10+ story buildings have been razed in OKC?


Probably not that many.  Lower the threshold to 5 stories and I'll bet it is a bunch.  Most of downtown OKCs original urban buildings were built before the elevator was common place which limited how high a building could be.

----------


## Teo9969

> Then there was this one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Local Federal Savings and Loan Association, 201-207 N. Robinson Ave., Oklahoma City"


Ah, ah ah



See the resemblance?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

How about something like this for residential?  :Smile:

----------


## Just the facts

Great - now I am ticked off again.  Thanks alot for showing those old pictures of OKC.  :Frown:

----------


## mugofbeer

> Midwest Theatre


Thanks for showing this one.  My grandparents had a printing company in this building.  Threw many a paper airplane into the alley on the left side as you look at it here.  Brings back a lot of memories..........

----------


## Bellaboo

> Then there was this one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Local Federal Savings and Loan Association, 201-207 N. Robinson Ave., Oklahoma City"


I think this one was torn down way past urban renewal. It came down because it would have been in front of the Leadership Square south tower, in about 1982 or 1983.

----------


## ljbab728

> I know this doesn't involve a mystery tower and I appologize for interrupting this thread, but do any of you remember this beautiful piece of architecture? All the talk of "what ifs" about the OKC skyline got me thinking.
> 
> Attachment 2847
> 
> Built in 1932 The Biltmore Hotel was 33 stories tall and at the time, the states largest building. It was on the corner of Harvey and Grand.
> My father has photos in sequence of the implosion. Maybe someday I can find them again.



I remember that hotel very well and it was never 33 floors.  It was 26 floors with a couple of lower levels.

----------


## Teo9969

> Great - now I am ticked off again.  Thanks alot for showing those old pictures of OKC.


Cheer up:

----------


## Just the facts

Thanks - I needed that.

----------


## ILoveMalania

> I remember that hotel very well and it was never 33 floors.  It was 26 floors with a couple of lower levels.


Sorry. It's weird. on the okhistory.org site it says this:

"Located on the southeast corner of Grand and Harvey, the Biltmore Hotel was conceived and built during the Great Depression by prominent civic leaders, headed by Charles F. Colcord. Designed by architects Hawk and Parr, by the time it was completed in 1932, the Biltmore was *thirty-three* stories high and was heralded as the state's tallest building. Financial woes plagued the hotel throughout most of its life and the doors were closed in June 1973. Thousands of citizens turned out to watch as the massive structure was dynamited on October 16, 1977. Many cried openly, knowing that they were witnessing a singular episode of the destruction of historic Oklahoma City." 

Everywhere else I read it said 26. Strange.

Sorry again for getting off topic. Maybe we should get back to the "Mystery Tower" of this thread before someone gets their hand slapped. =)

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I'd rather see one page of history and old buildings, than five pages of EIFS.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Count the floors.

Biltmore Hotel (Hotel Oklahoma)* - Discussion - OKCTalk

----------


## UnFrSaKn

June 27 1970

This is about the peak of urban renewal. Chase Tower going up, but no Oklahoma Tower, Sandridge Tower, Corporate Tower, Mid-America Tower, BOK Plaza, IRS building, Renaissance Hotel, or Devon Tower.

----------


## HangryHippo

> June 27 1970
> 
> This is about the peak of urban renewal. Chase Tower going up, but no Oklahoma Tower, Sandridge Tower, Corporate Tower, Mid-America Tower, BOK Plaza, IRS building, Renaissance Hotel, or Devon Tower.


My god.  This is the first picture I've seen that really showed how much was destroyed in the name of "renewal."  Unbelievable.  And nauseating.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Consider if you took this shortly before steel went up for Chase Tower, the tallest buildings downtown were built around 1932

----------


## Just the facts

That picture is proof that man will never invent time travel.  If we did that, among other things, would have been 'corrected'.

----------


## Just the facts

> Consider if you took this shortly before steel went up for Chase Tower, the tallest buildings downtown were built around 1932


Considering what followed was the Great Depression, dustbowl, WWII, the 1949 Housing Act, interstate highways, and then IM Pei - we are darn lucky anything survived.  Paradise Lost - OKC style.

----------


## s00nr1

> June 27 1970
> 
> This is about the peak of urban renewal. Chase Tower going up, but no Oklahoma Tower, Sandridge Tower, Corporate Tower, Mid-America Tower, BOK Plaza, IRS building, Renaissance Hotel, or Devon Tower.


And no county jail either :/

----------


## Praedura

> June 27 1970
> 
> This is about the peak of urban renewal. Chase Tower going up, but no Oklahoma Tower, Sandridge Tower, Corporate Tower, Mid-America Tower, BOK Plaza, IRS building, Renaissance Hotel, or Devon Tower.


No Myriad Gardens, no OKCMOA, no Norick Library, no Chesapeake Arena, no Cox Convention Center (well, at least it's under construction), no... on and on. That photo looks like a wasteland compared to modern OKC.

Compare with later images:

July 2006



May 2008




March 2012

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I have over a hundred from 1972 in color at street level I'm adding to the Reference Articles page.

----------


## KayneMo

> June 27 1970
> 
> This is about the peak of urban renewal. Chase Tower going up, but no Oklahoma Tower, Sandridge Tower, Corporate Tower, Mid-America Tower, BOK Plaza, IRS building, Renaissance Hotel, or Devon Tower.


What I REALLY love about this image is that Main Street goes all the way through.

----------


## Just the facts

> What I REALLY love about this image is that Main Street goes all the way through.


So did Harvey - and at one time California did as well (with terminal view of Santa Fe Station I might add).

----------


## MikeLucky

> My god.  This is the first picture I've seen that really showed how much was destroyed in the name of "renewal."  Unbelievable.  And nauseating.


That's funny... because when I look at that pic I thought something quite different.  It struck me how much we've done and how far we've come since then...  In fact it created quite a strong feeling in me how happy I am I live here NOW as opposed to THEN...

----------


## CaptDave

> So did Harvey - and at one time California did as well (with terminal view of Santa Fe Station I might add).


Hopefully it will again in a few years.....CA Ave at least.....

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Imagine living in New York when the first skyscrapers were going up.

New York Architecture Images- THE PARK ROW BUILDING

----------


## UnFrSaKn

In case anyone needed a refresher... 




Stage Center at 6:20

----------


## CaptDave

Good, but misguided, intentions. That is sad to watch nearly the entire downtown gleefully demolished.

----------


## Just the facts

I didn't know if I should laugh or cry - so I did both.

----------


## SOONER8693

The individuals that promoted the rape of downtown OKC should have been or should be strung up in a tall tree.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> In case anyone needed a refresher... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stage Center at 6:20


Interesting, kinda funny, and sad at the same time... close to nothing he promoted came to pass...

But the acting was awesome!!!

----------


## s00nr1

> In case anyone needed a refresher... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stage Center at 6:20


Wow how about all the sunshine pumping regarding the Galleria? Facepalm on that one.

----------


## Bellaboo

I think #33 above is Alvin Adams, of OU and Phoenix Suns Glory. It looks like him at an ALL-College game possibly ??? He played in the early '70's.

Would the Cox have been open at that time ?

----------


## Pete

> I think #33 above is Alvin Adams, of OU and Phoenix Suns Glory. It looks like him at an ALL-College game possibly ??? He played in the early '70's.
> 
> Would the Cox have been open at that time ?


Yes, that was Alvan at what was then the INCOMPARABLE Myriad.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I like the diversity of Philadelphia.



List of tallest buildings in Philadelphia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## HangryHippo

I lived in Philadelphia for awhile and it has a very cool downtown.  However, I really hate the Liberty Place towers.

----------


## kevinpate

very excellent image that you used. thanks for sharing that.

----------


## metro

Philly is perhaps the coolest urban city in the country.

----------


## Just the facts

> I lived in Philadelphia for awhile and it has a very cool downtown.  However, I really hate the Liberty Place towers.


Liberty Place is one of those building that look better from 10 miles away than they do from the sidewalk 10 feet away.  In a city filled with sidewalk interaction Liberty Place provides none of it.  Even though it provides retail space (and quite a bit of it), most of it is only accessible via interior corridors which results in a lot vacancies, especially on the 2nd floor.  Even if you see something in the display window you like, you have to walk a 100' or more to find an entrance and then navigate a maze of interior hallways to find the store you were just standing in front of.

Shops At Liberty / Store Map | 1625 Chestnut Street - (215) 851-9055

----------


## Just the facts

> Philly is perhaps the coolest urban city in the country.


No doubt about it.  Everyone should go to Philly.  I said it before but standing in Rittenhouse Sq is one of my favorite places on the planet.

----------


## Teo9969

> No doubt about it.  Everyone should go to Philly.  I said it before but standing in Rittenhouse Sq is one of my favorite places on the planet.


It's fantastically gorgeous...that being said, It's the only place I've ever gotten a parking ticket. So until I go back and visit it, it will not be one of my favorite places on the planet.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Parking Wars?

----------


## Just the facts

> It's fantastically gorgeous...that being said, It's the only place I've ever gotten a parking ticket. So until I go back and visit it, it will not be one of my favorite places on the planet.


That is what you get for driving a car in a walkable city  :Smile: 

I lived there for 2 months and never once got in a car.  No kidding - not once.

Of course, I got a parking ticket in San Francisco about 23 years ago.  I still haven't paid it.

----------


## CaptDave

Scofflaw!   :Police:

----------


## Teo9969

> That is what you get for driving a car in a walkable city 
> 
> I lived there for 2 months and never once got in a car.  No kidding - not once.
> 
> Of course, I got a parking ticket in San Francisco about 23 years ago.  I still haven't paid it.


Kind of hard, the express I was in Philadelphia was for a car...I bought a car up there, flew out and drove it back...

----------


## Just the facts

> Scofflaw!

----------


## CaptDave

JTF is the white whale.... who would have guessed?!

----------


## Pete

There is more and more news about Continental's rapid growth and a recent discovery could be huge.

I really think they are going to end up buying the Stage Center property and building a tower.  And considering that the foundation is in the process of accepting proposals for that property, I would expect it to change hands soon.

----------


## Spartan

If that site goes to Continental, it sits for a good while, especially after demo...bad idea. Even if the market looks stable for a few years, I don't feel comfortable with there not being immediate development plans.

I think mixed-use is absolutely the best idea for this site, hands down. First two levels of retail, maybe 100,000 sf of office, and maybe 20-25 floors of residential.

----------


## catch22

I bet Continental would start construction pretty soon. Devon announced their tower in 2008, and they are now moved in 4 years later. If they announced tomorrow morning that they bought the site and were going to start construction Tuesday (wouldn't happen but just for the sake of this conversation), it'd be 3 years before they moved in fully. By that time, if they do grow according to their growth plan, which they have been meeting, they would need more space in 3 years.

I doubt Continental would sit too long on the site, and I don't think they'd demo before they were ready to set the foundation so to speak, much like Devon.

Something is definitely going to happen, and I am anxious to see!

----------


## Spartan

I also think that site needs to be active after 5

----------


## catch22

That's a good point. It is a very transitional point between MBG/CBD and Film Row.

----------


## jedicurt

Just had dinner with someone who normally doesn't just spread rumors, and he told me that he has heard from several people that he works with (all in the energy sector, and most from Tulsa) that Williams may be looking at OKC to reloate. That would be a huge loss for Tulsa if it were to happen. 

We weren't even talking about companies moving or anything like that, he just brought it up and asked if I had heard anything about it

----------


## Just the facts

> I also think that site needs to be active after 5


That is going to be a tricky area since the lot next door is an elementary school that will be vacant after 4PM and on weekends.

----------


## kevinpate

> That is going to be a tricky area since the lot next door is an elementary school that will be vacant after 4PM and on weekends.


Maybe, maybe not.  When my children were little, there was one event or another at their grade school almost every weeknight, and occasionally on weekends (though usually weekend matters were daytime events.) Not hordes of folks, but not just 1-3 families either.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Just had dinner with someone who normally doesn't just spread rumors, and he told me that he has heard from several people that he works with (all in the energy sector, and most from Tulsa) that Williams may be looking at OKC to reloate. That would be a huge loss for Tulsa if it were to happen. 
> 
> We weren't even talking about companies moving or anything like that, he just brought it up and asked if I had heard anything about it


If they were to relocate, I would rather have them relocate to OKC than Houston though........

----------


## Pete

You can bet that if Continental develops the Stage Center site, they will go through a process and approach very close to Devon, in that they do their best to make the property at least somewhat multi-purpose and have it be open to the public.


Interesting about Williams...  Perhaps they would just move part of their company?  Very hard to believe they would pull up stakes on Tulsa, as they are such a big part of that community.

----------


## Bellaboo

Williams is such a large company, at one time they bought the Transco Tower in Houston, which is at the Galleria and in excess of 900 feet tall. It wouldn't surprise me if they moved some division here.

----------


## Spartan

> That is going to be a tricky area since the lot next door is an elementary school that will be vacant after 4PM and on weekends.


But the pressure is on because it may be the only side of the MBG that we even get the opportunity to make vibrant

----------


## Pete

Devon built their massive complex next to several other structures, so the elementary school shouldn't be a big issue.

For the school, the dropoff/pickup point is in the back anyway, as is the playground.  With modern building techniques, the classrooms shouldn't be too disturbed by construction noise.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I think it would have been really cool to be in elementary school and have such a huge potential operation going on right next door to watch every day. I'm sure if this all does pan out, the kids would enjoy watching the construction workers and it would be a cool learning experience for them. Whatever gets built there, they would just have to be involved together and make it happen and have it be a safe area for workers and students.

----------


## Just the facts

> Devon built their massive complex next to several other structures, so the elementary school shouldn't be a big issue.
> 
> For the school, the dropoff/pickup point is in the back anyway, as is the playground.  With modern building techniques, the classrooms shouldn't be too disturbed by construction noise.


I meant post-construction.  It will be difficult to create a walkable environment with 400' feet of off-limit space.  I'm thinking the school should have been built in the center of where future housing is planned (between Dewey and Lee and between 5th and 6th), not on the edge of it.  That location would have put the school right in the middle of the very people who will use it in the future.

----------


## metro

> There is more and more news about Continental's rapid growth and a recent discovery could be huge.
> 
> I really think they are going to end up buying the Stage Center property and building a tower.  And considering that the foundation is in the process of accepting proposals for that property, I would expect it to change hands soon.


The more financial blogs I read, the more I think this is correct. Domestic energy is poised to make a HUGE comeback, barring any unforeseen foreign policy or domestic regulation blunders. Most of the financial gurus have Continental at the top of the list.

----------


## catch22

I'm going to take Steve's recommendation of trusting Beffort's word. I bet we have an announcement by the end of the year (within 7 weeks).

----------


## Spartan

> I meant post-construction.  It will be difficult to create a walkable environment with 400' feet of off-limit space.  I'm thinking the school should have been built in the center of where future housing is planned (between Dewey and Lee and between 5th and 6th), not on the edge of it.  That location would have put the school right in the middle of the very people who will use it in the future.


The school isn't just for C2S, and nobody lives down there right now (except for a few way-early things happening down in Hubcap Alley). Deep Deuce is the unequivocal epicenter of downtown housing and will be for a LONG time, as I would expect it to retain a lead of a few thousand residents for at least 15 years. And that's assuming C2S takes off as we hope.

----------


## Teo9969

Just a thought, but if Continental does build, They don't necessarily have to take up the whole block. Also, if they are going to build there and grow into a big company, I can think of no better place to build a residential high-rise than right between Devon and Continental. That place would lease out/sell in about 3 minutes with that many highly paid employees with in 400 yards of each other.

----------


## Teo9969

On that note, is there any precedent in other cities for companies building residential? I would think Devon/Continental could go in on that together, or even just one of them. It would almost surely be cake for them to make it a profitable endeavor for them. If not monetarily, economically. Imagine the incentives you could do with employees to live there and how that would help recruitment efforts.

----------


## Pete

Since Devon and Continental are so tight (Devon did a lot to lure them to OKC, after all) perhaps we'll see the two develop in concert with each other.

If and when Continental gets serious about developing the Stage Center site, that means those ratty properties on the Preftakes block (immediately west of Devon) are going to look even worse and be a barrier between Continental, the school, the new Bicentennial Park & Civic Center, and Film Row.

I could be that once Continental announces plans for SC, Devon will follow suit for the Preftakes block.

----------


## Just the facts

> On that note, is there any precedent in other cities for companies building residential?


Kerr McGee, until they got bought out.

----------


## jccouger

That's what I've been saying. A highrise residential would sell out in no time flat. Somebody with enough money to build one would be stupid not too.

----------


## HangryHippo

> That's what I've been saying. A highrise residential would sell out in no time flat. Somebody with enough money to build one would be stupid not too.


Be nice if we could have gotten such a development where the new convention center is slated to go.  But then again, we had a development possibly for this site already and we decided the CC was more important.  What a nightmare that has been and will continue to be.

----------


## kevinpate

Pondering ... if Chesapeake had taken some of the generous property payments made in the northern portion of the city, and applied the funds instead to land & new residential highrise construction near their campus and near DT, oh, how much more additional housing might exist today.

----------


## Spartan

> Since Devon and Continental are so tight (Devon did a lot to lure them to OKC, after all) perhaps we'll see the two develop in concert with each other.
> 
> If and when Continental gets serious about developing the Stage Center site, that means those ratty properties on the Preftakes block (immediately west of Devon) are going to look even worse and be a barrier between Continental, the school, the new Bicentennial Park & Civic Center, and Film Row.
> 
> I could be that once Continental announces plans for SC, Devon will follow suit for the Preftakes block.


So we're now calling our last remnants of our historic Main Street "those ratty properties" ??? Sheesh, Pete..

----------


## Snowman

> On that note, is there any precedent in other cities for companies building residential?


There used to be at least some companies that did, though I think it is much rarer now than it use to be.

----------


## Pete

> So we're now calling our last remnants of our historic Main Street "those ratty properties" ??? Sheesh, Pete..


In their current state, 'ratty' is a compliment.

----------


## Spartan

I hope nobody thinks a single preservationist wants those buildings to stay in their current state.

----------


## Pete

Preftakes has owned those Main Street properties for quite a while and hasn't even bothered to clean them up, repair broken windows, etc.

They are not going to renovate those buildings, otherwise they would have done *something* by now.  I'm sure they are leaving them in their crappy state so when it comes time to tear them down, there will be less money invested and less objection.

----------


## Spartan

Then we really are playing zero-sum infill...

----------


## fromdust

> The more financial blogs I read, the more I think this is correct. Domestic energy is poised to make a HUGE comeback, barring any unforeseen foreign policy or domestic regulation blunders. Most of the financial gurus have Continental at the top of the list.


yup, check this article out.Move Over Saudi Arabia, Uncle Sam is Moving Up!

----------


## Just the facts

> Then we really are playing zero-sum infill...


Only if what is built is just as crappy as what is there now and doesn't led to adjacent development.  The naural progression is for property to ascend to higher and better use.  That includes vacant lots AND lots with something already on them.  What sucks is when we try lower and worse use.

----------


## jedicurt

> Only if what is built is just as crappy as what is there now and doesn't led to adjacent development.  The naural progression is for property to ascend to higher and better use.  That includes vacant lots AND lots with something already on them.  What sucks is when we try lower and worse use.


which brings up the four possibilities

Higher And Better use (which i think i can easily say that we are all in favor of)
Lower And Better use (which i personally am okay with, as long as the use is significantly better for the land than what was previously used for)
Higher and Worse use (some on here will be still infavor of this cause it means taller buildings.  i would venture that the majority would not like this)
Lower and Worse use (what the City of Oklahoma City is a master of)

----------


## hoya

I really think we're looking at 2 separate structures that will be built on the Preftakes block.  The corner of Main and Hudson, Carpenter's Square area, will be some kind of smaller medical center or something for Devon.  You could squeeze in a skyscraper if you wanted, but it's not the ideal location.  I'm thinking probably something on par height-wise with the city office building there, in the same style as the rest of the Devon complex.

The second structure on that block will be where Johnny's Lunch Box and the old Greyhound station are.  There's a huge amount of parking behind those buildings in the center of that block, and you could put a truly ginormous skyscraper there without having to tear much down.  Maybe whoever doesn't get Stage Center builds there.  It would be kind of cool to get two skyscrapers being built at the same time, right across the street from one another.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> It would be kind of cool to get two skyscrapers being built at the same time, right across the street from one another.


You mean like we had at First and Robinson more than 80 years ago? Doug's blog has some photos that show just how cool that was!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

A repeat of this...

----------


## hoya

That's exactly how I mean.  That kind of competition really improves the spirit of the community, it gets everyone excited and involved.

----------


## Pete

Fortunately for all of us, Devon and now SandRidge (and really Chesapeake, for that matter) have set very high standards.

I doubt OG&E would build to that same level but it would be hard for any private entity or developer to set a lower bar.

----------


## Spartan

> Only if what is built is just as crappy as what is there now and doesn't led to adjacent development.  The naural progression is for property to ascend to higher and better use.  That includes vacant lots AND lots with something already on them.  What sucks is when we try lower and worse use.


Can you think of ANY higher and better use than restoring those buildings as a natural mixed-use transition between CBD and Film Row, and filling in the two vacant lots with a condo tower and a Devon 2 tower..something with smaller floor plates

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Can you think of ANY higher and better use than restoring those buildings as a natural mixed-use transition between CBD and Film Row, and filling in the two vacant lots with a condo tower and a Devon 2 tower..something with smaller floor plates


tearing the buildings down to build a modern corp headquarters .. that is 35+ stories .. is a better use

----------


## Just the facts

Anything that produced more than $0 per sq foot in economic activity would be a higher and better use assuming it was still built to urban development design standards.  If towers can be wedged into the existing space as you described then that is great also.

----------


## Spartan

> tearing the buildings down to build a modern corp headquarters .. that is 35+ stories .. is a better use


Is there anything that a modern corporate headquarters is not a better use than, including anything site-specific?

I think we _really, really, really_ have to start getting more nuanced about corporate headquarters placement. There should be a voice of reason saying to spread these out a little more, DO have mixed-use in between, and also it's easier on the parking demands because you can do garages that also have business after 5 from mixed-use around the corporations.

----------


## HangryHippo

I drove around this area today and I agree wholeheartedly with Spartan about this.  To lose the Preftakes block and those last remnants of our Main St. is not a higher use.  It's a different use.  We all gripe all the time about all the empty lots and all the space and how we need infill and then we suddenly support an idea to wipe out what could be a perfectly good block if Preftakes opened it up for use and made some renovations.  WTF?  Why can't Devon and Continental and whoever else looks at some of the empty lots and build on those?  My god, we have plenty!  Why can't the Preftakes block be saved or added onto with something innovative as opposed to clearing it?  I really think they should try and look at some empty lots and start there.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Is there anything that a modern corporate headquarters is not a better use than, including anything site-specific?
> 
> I think we _really, really, really_ have to start getting more nuanced about corporate headquarters placement. There should be a voice of reason saying to spread these out a little more, DO have mixed-use in between, and also it's easier on the parking demands because you can do garages that also have business after 5 from mixed-use around the corporations.


sure lots of things are better than corporate headquarters .... just not many that i can think of that are 1 story

----------


## Spartan

> sure lots of things are better than corporate headquarters .... just not many that i can think of that are 1 story


Then take out the 1-story building. That will rip my heart out because I love that terra cotta and black/white checkerboard tile facade, but if we can get a compromise that restores most of the historic buildings on the Preftakes block and enables new construction as well, then everyone wins - OKC wins. Modern towers can also be built ON TOP of historic 1-story structures.

----------


## Spartan

> I drove around this area today and I agree wholeheartedly with Spartan about this.  To lose the Preftakes block and those last remnants of our Main St. is not a higher use.  It's a different use.  We all gripe all the time about all the empty lots and all the space and how we need infill and then we suddenly support an idea to wipe out what could be a perfectly good block if Preftakes opened it up for use and made some renovations.  WTF?  Why can't Devon and Continental and whoever else looks at some of the empty lots and build on those?  My god, we have plenty!  Why can't the Preftakes block be saved or added onto with something innovative as opposed to clearing it?  I really think they should try and look at some empty lots and start there.


We need to start looking at moving downtown forward in ways that don't involve clear-cutting downtown first. It is shocking how we have learned absolutely nothing from our city's storied and tragic past.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

The Coney Island building is one of the only ones left from the original Main St. In the style of these buildings from the first decade since the city was founded. Similar to Guthrie. It's probably around a 1904 building. It still stands because it's further away from downtown.

----------


## hoya

As I understand it, the Coney Island building is privately owned by the old guy who runs Coney Island.  He ain't selling.  The building beside it is owned by the city and they aren't selling either.  There's the old auto hotel on that block, as well as the large building beside it whose name I can't think of right now.  Both are in use and neither will be torn down.  So what we're talking about as far as clear cutting the Preftakes block are the 3 or 4 one and two story buildings that are on the corner of Hudson and Main.  All look pretty bad and haven't had any money put into them in a decade or more.  All could probably be cleaned up and turned into a small law firm office or something like that.

If I were in charge of building a new corporate headquarters and had selected that site, I'd level those old buildings, then build the first 8-10 floors of my skyscraper out of brick and limestone to evoke the same turn-of-the-century feeling of those old buildings, and then have my glass and steel tower rise out of that base.  You still get the appearance of preserving old Main Street.  Personally those particular buildings look awful to me, in part due to their dilapidation.  But even if you spent the money to make them look new, at most you're getting a Grace Cleaners style series of buildings that are kinda nice and add a bit of character.  Call me an enemy of preservation, but I'd take a 35 story tower over that.  I think we're actually looking at some sort of 10 story glass building for Devon in that spot, but I've got no real info on that.

I would agree, if you were talking about leveling the entire block, a corporate HQ isn't worth it.  Too many good old buildings on that block to lose.

Why doesn't anyone propose tearing down 100 N Walker?  I don't think anyone would shed a tear if we lost that building.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Maybe this will end up like Batteries Not Included and the Coney Island building will be surrounded by much taller skyscrapers on each side of it!  That would be awesome.

----------


## jedicurt

> Maybe this will end up like Batteries Not Included and the Coney Island building will be surrounded by much taller skyscrapers on each side of it!  That would be awesome.


wow... now that is a movie you don't se referenced very often

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Stage Center site is ripe for tower development

Steve Lackmeyer: Stage Center site is ripe for tower development | NewsOK.com

----------


## jedicurt

As always, thanks for the update Steve!

----------


## G.Walker

Building momentum: Brokers say Hobby Lobby, energy industry driving OKC industrial market | The Journal Record

----------


## Spartan

Hobby Lobby??

Edit: oh, industrial...yeah when you take an entire square mile it tends to have an impact :/

----------


## Dustin

Please post the full text of the article for those without a subscription.

----------


## Spartan

Yeah that's always a must with the JR

----------


## KayneMo

Is a new park being built at the SW corner of Broadway and Kerr? That would be a great spot for a new tower!

----------


## MikeLucky

> Please post the full text of the article for those without a subscription.





> Yeah that's always a must with the JR


Anything else you guys want for free?  lol

----------


## OKCDrummer77

> Anything else you guys want for free?  lol


Courtside seats for the Thunder.  :Cool:

----------


## SoonerBoy18

Why is this thread still up and running? Off topic discussions, i have heard nothing about this so called "mystery tower" in...... Well never.

----------


## catch22

> Why is this thread still up and running? Off topic discussions, i have heard nothing about this so called "mystery tower" in...... Well never.


I bet we hear something soon. Patience, my friend.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I've said it once before and I'll say it again....they're waiting until after December 21st...there are more people than you think that are seriously weary of this date, lol.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I've said it once before and I'll say it again....they're waiting until after December 21st...there are more people than you think that are seriously weary of this date, lol.


I think it will be in March, near the end of the first quarter.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I've said it once before and I'll say it again....they're waiting until after December 21st...there are more people than you think that are seriously weary of this date, lol.


I don't want anyone that is leery of that date making important decisions.

----------


## Spartan

> I don't want anyone that is leery of that date making important decisions.


Like? No, love.

----------


## HangryHippo

In this article (Oklahoma City businesses plan to keep hiring, chamber official says | NewsOK.com) posted this morning on NewsOK.com, reporter Michael Kimball wrote this:

"Uncertainty in the national economy and the ever-closer edge of the fiscal cliff, threatened by federal government inaction, has given pause to some of the largest employers.

*Earlier this year, optimistic statements and hints from civic leaders predicted a big job boost from major development and relocation news from big corporations, but Williams implied Tuesday that concerns about the economy have delayed that, at least for now.*

'We're still a hesitancy and a reluctance to grow, to make large capital investments and (add) new employees and new equipment, particularly among the larger companies,' Williams said."

Perhaps throwing a little cold water on all these rumors...?

----------


## Spartan

More like calling for a mulligan

----------


## Pete

The major employers in town are adding people at record levels so I don't know what Williams is talking about.

And Devon, Chesapeake, Continental and SandRidge are all in the middle of massive capital improvements.


As for the possible relocations, that's always been vague so it's hard to know exactly what he means there.

----------


## Thundercitizen

If nobody else is building, and you *can*, now would be the time.  
Labor and materials in low demand and still in relatively moderate/high supply.
...maybe.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

To be realistic, time is running out on this year.  There will be no announcements this year.  Look for it to be in 2013.  March time frame sounds good to me too...

----------


## CaptDave

WSJ article about skinny towers. Might we see one or more in OKC?

Slim Pickings: The Rise of Skinny Skyscrapers - WSJ.com

----------


## Spartan

We may finally get some skinny low-rise developments lol... At least according to the latest OCURA rfp.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Anyone ever see the variety of the Doha, Qatar skyline?

----------


## Dustin

Why is one of them wrapped in a condom?  ;D  

Beautiful skyline!  I love the one furthest to the left.  The way they layed the glass is beautiful.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I like the vase in the middle...imagine those flowers!

----------


## Just the facts

> We may finally get some skinny low-rise developments lol... At least according to the latest OCURA rfp.


I hope so.  Something around 6 to 8 stories would fit there nicely.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

That skyline is unique, but also think it is kinda ugly. How many of those buildings would look good in OKC besides the one on the left?

----------


## Just the facts

> That skyline is unique, but also think it is kinda ugly. How many of those buildings would look good in OKC besides the one on the left?


Look good from how far away?  It is a shame that place with the resources don't have more regional planners and less traffic engineers and architects.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Look good from how far away?  It is a shame that place with the resources don't have more regional planners and less traffic engineers and architects.


I suppose any building's would make a skyline look good from far away, but I' talking anywhere from 1-10 miles. Also, that is like one of the most spread out cores I have ever seen (assuming it is the core of the city).

----------


## Just the facts

> I suppose any building's would make a skyline look good from far away, but I' talking anywhere from 1-10 miles. Also, that is like one of the most spread out cores I have ever seen (assuming it is the core of the city).


Go check it out on Google Earth.  To get from a building to the one next door you have to drive.  I guess the good news is they made more than their share of giant round-a-bouts.  In a place with no other city to even drive to I wonder why the fixated on the automobile as the only method of transportation.

----------


## soonerguru

> Go check it out on Google Earth.  To get from a building to the one next door you have to drive.  I guess the good news is they made more than their share of giant round-a-bouts.  In a place with no other city to even drive to I wonder why the fixated on the automobile as the only method of transportation.


Looked like that to me from the pics provided, kinda like Miami. No thanks.

----------


## Rover

For much of the year the heat and humidity is oppressive...not to mention the sandstorms.  People don't just get out and wander the cute streets there.  You have to have context before you judge everything.

----------


## Just the facts

> For much of the year the heat and humidity is oppressive...not to mention the sandstorms.  People don't just get out and wander the cute streets there.  You have to have context before you judge everything.


4 months out of the year average high is pretty darn hot.  The other 8 months, not to bad (average highs in the 70's and 80's).  Funny thing about being on sand and near water, even on the hottest day it tends to cool down quickly after about 4 PM.  Context indeed.

Average Weather for Doha, * - Temperature and Precipitation

----------


## Rover

> 4 months out of the year average high is pretty darn hot.  The other 8 months, not to bad (average highs in the 70's and 80's).  Funny thing about being on sand and near water, even on the hottest day it tends to cool down quickly after about 4 PM.  Context indeed.
> 
> Average Weather for Doha, * - Temperature and Precipitation


I love it when people never experience anything but have read it all to be an expert.  Go there sometime and experience the great eight months.  Lol.  Living life through google.

----------


## CaptDave

> Anyone ever see the variety of the Doha, Qatar skyline?


The vast majority of those buildings have been built in the last 5 years. Several were under construction at the same time when I was last there in 2008.

----------


## CaptDave

> I suppose any building's would make a skyline look good from far away, but I' talking anywhere from 1-10 miles. Also, that is like one of the most spread out cores I have ever seen (assuming it is the core of the city).


That is the "new city" - the older section is across the bay to the south. I like the old market in Doha a lot. If you look at Doha on Google Earth, you should be able to see a clam/pearl sculpture on the corniche, then go south and that is the old market area.

----------


## Rover

Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Doha are all really interesting contrasts of ultra modern and ancient.  Not sure I like all the new architecture as many are sort of garish.  But it is impressive in scale and the fact that architects are given such free rein to create.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Go check it out on Google Earth.  To get from a building to the one next door you have to drive.  I guess the good news is they made more than their share of giant round-a-bouts.  In a place with no other city to even drive to I wonder why the fixated on the automobile as the only method of transportation.


Haha that is crazy and regarding the weather in Phoenix people walk around all the time in 100+ degree heat, same thing with Vegas. So I'm sure people in Doha are used to it and would walk (if they could).




> That is the "new city" - the older section is across the bay to the south. I like the old market in Doha a lot. If you look at Doha on Google Earth, you should be able to see a clam/pearl sculpture on the corniche, then go south and that is the old market area.


I couldn't find the sculpture, but I'm not near desktop that has the actual application. I will go check it again though soon.  :Smile:

----------


## UnFrSaKn

The Pearl Monument, Corniche - Doha - Reviews - TravBuddy

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Off topic alert! Warning!

----------


## huskysooner

To get the conversation back on track....did anyone catch Flash Point on KFOR last Sunday morning? A family member who follows dowtown develop and general happenings across the city told me that Kirk Humphreys went out of his way to mention that although he couldn't reveal any names, a new oil company will be relocating to downtown Oklahoma City soon. I am not sure of the exact phrasing as I didn't catch the segment, but I know Mr. Humphreys wouldn't have deliberately brought this up (it was off topic based on their discussion topic) if he didn't have a high level of confidence in a forthcoming announcement.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Heh for all we know, Kirk Humphreys gets his inside information from the Mystery Tower thread on here.

----------


## Pete

You can hear the comments by Kirk Humphreys at the 7:35 mark here:

Flash Point: 1st Segment, Nov. 25th, 2012 | KFOR.com


Here's the quote (the group was talking about energy companies and their positive impact on OKC):

"We've been blessed -- we have a number of corporate headquarters.  Word's out we're supposed to get another one downtown.  I don't know what's gonna happen.  Don't know who it is.  If I knew I'd talk."

----------


## UnFrSaKn

You know I looked for that segment earlier and just saw old clips.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Yep, Will is right.  "Word's out" could just mean that he read it on here.  Oh well...

----------


## Bellaboo

This could be old news - I work with a guy who has a nephew in management at Devon. Over the weekend he told him that 70 folks have rejected the transfer offer from their Houston office closure, and that they expect at a minimum of 300 to transfer up to the OKC HQ office. Said a new large tower was definately in the works.

----------


## Spartan

The uncertain economy definitely helps with that.

----------


## Just the facts

> This could be old news - I work with a guy who has a nephew in management at Devon. Over the weekend he told him that 70 folks have rejected the transfer offer from their Houston office closure, and that they expect at a minimum of 300 to transfer up to the OKC HQ office. Said a new large tower was definately in the works.


Not that I doubt you Bellaboo, but when we start getting into 4 degrees of separation I have to hold my enthusiasm.

----------


## Pete

Devon is going to build another tower and I don't think they will wait much longer before announcing, as they will soon be out of space.

I still think Continental is going to build on the Stage Center site.

Good chance we get a building from OG&E and there is still plenty of talk about a company outside of OKC moving downtown and building.


There is a little uncertainly with the economy but remember Devon paid cash for their new complex and still has tons of liquidity.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Does anybody else wish they would've just build a super tower?

----------


## Pete

I would much rather have the current buildings plus another 30- to 40- story tower rather than one 90-story structure.

We need more new buildings and more balance to our skyline.

Would love to see 3 or 4 30- to 50-story towers...  Would then be very comparable to Charlotte which has one of the nicest skylines around.

----------


## Just the facts

I would rather have 10 fifteen story towers assuming they have adequate street-level interaction.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I would much rather have the current buildings plus another 30- to 40- story tower rather than one 90-story structure.
> 
> We need more new buildings and more balance to our skyline.
> 
> Would love to see 3 or 4 30- to 50-story towers...  Would then be very comparable to Charlotte which has one of the nicest skylines around.


Yeah, I guess. I just like super-tall buildings. I could see how multiple towers would appeal better though than one giant.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I would rather have 10 fifteen story towers assuming they have *adequate street-level interaction.*


You mean retail and stuff like that?

----------


## Pete

Devon Tower is already completely out of proportion with our existing CBD.

We need more buildings to bridge that gap -- plus we need more new buildings in general.


Remember, the more new buildings, the more new stuff at street level.

----------


## Just the facts

> You mean retail and stuff like that?


Retail, sidewalk dining, hotel lobbies, professional services, etc...  Anything that invites people to interact with the building and makes it easy to do so.

----------


## soonerguru

I heard they actually let a lot of people go in Houston. Not sure what to believe at this point.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Not that I doubt you Bellaboo, but when we start getting into 4 degrees of separation I have to hold my enthusiasm.


Oh I know, what I have is about 3 or 4 hand info.

I did ask my contact more specifics earlier today and he said his nephew told him that the building would be 'right next door', to the current tower.

----------


## jccouger

Any chance devon would build in the big grassy space between the current tower and the auditorium where the big giant christmas ball is? Seems pretty silly of them to just keep a big patch of grass for no reason.

----------


## Just the facts

> Any chance devon would build in the big grassy space between the current tower and the auditorium where the big giant christmas ball is? Seems pretty silly of them to just keep a big patch of grass for no reason.


That would be too good to be true, but we can always hope.  It is sad that they left enough vacant space along the stree that a whole other tower could be built in the first place.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Any chance devon would build in the big grassy space between the current tower and the auditorium where the big giant christmas ball is? Seems pretty silly of them to just keep a big patch of grass for no reason.


I wouldn't think so, it's their visual connection to the MBG.

----------


## Just the facts

> I wouldn't think so, it's their visual connection to the MBG.


If Nichols can't pull that off with his tower, how is he going to pull it off with the convention center?

----------


## Bellaboo

> If Nichols can't pull that off with his tower, how is he going to pull it off with the convention center?


That grassy area is not as large when a person gets down there and walks it...not compared to the scale of the rest of the complex. It's a nice little area that fits well with their outside ammenities.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Don't think it's very big either. Where would they put their giant Christmas ornament?

----------


## Just the facts

Just the grass area is is 80' X 150'.  That is a bigger plot of ground than the FNC tower is on.  And that assumes they only use the grass.

This tower would easily fit.  At only 50' x 70' they could get two of them on their front lawn.

----------


## Bellaboo

Something tells me they wouldn't put a skinny tower on their lawn................when they have 3/4 of a block next door.

----------


## Anonymous.

Having another tower _that_ close to our current tallest tower would be very awkward, IMO.

Until the rest of the skyline starts filling up, putting a bunch of tall modern buildings side-by-side is not my cup of tea.

----------


## jccouger

I wouldn't expect devon to build anything even close to the size of their current tower. I'd compare it to what Sandridge is doing with the new tower they are going to build which will be about half as tall as the current main building.

----------


## Just the facts

I'm just saying that the lawn is big enough to get a new tower (of any height) on.  Devon might have lots of reason not to build one there, but none of those reason have anything to do with "can't".

----------


## Pete

> I heard they actually let a lot of people go in Houston. Not sure what to believe at this point.


Here's what to believe:

Of the 600 Devon jobs in Houston, about 100 will be relocated to OKC.  Many more were offered the opportunity to move but declined.

Another 200 will be hired in OKC to cover these responsibilities.

----------


## Pete

Absolutely ZERO chance Devon is going to build on their existing lawn.  The whole complex was designed around keeping that space open.  The garden wing in particular relies on natural light from the south and has light wells that go from top to bottom.  The auditorium has a glass wall that specifically looks out upon the lawn area.  I could go on and on.

They also own almost a full block immediately west.

----------


## jccouger

I agree, I think the lawn would be the perfect place. It just seems very calculated, even to the point that the atrium's SW corner is somewhat jolting out that appears to be for a connection to something else. I just walked by the Devon Center and there is plenty of space on the lawn for another tower without creating a cramped environment and without it creating an awkward skyline. This just seems way more logical than having employees walk across the street to another tower when there is plenty of space available right next to everything else a part of the Devon Center.

----------


## hoya

They've got the green square they could build on, or the light blue square.  Either one could easily fit a tower.  They're not going to cram it into their lawn when they own both these spaces.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> They've got the green square they could build on, or the light blue square.  Either one could easily fit a tower.  They're not going to cram it into their lawn when they own both these spaces.


I'd agree this may be the solution.  No need to walk across the street when you can walk over it...or under it.

----------


## Pete

They already have skybridges connecting the Garden Wing to the auditorium and the rotunda to the City Center Garage and then Oklahoma Tower.

You can bet they are going to build west of Hudson and have another skybridge into the Garden Wing and/or parking garage.

Nichols has stressed them importance of inter-connecting all their buildings and making sure they were all part of the Underground / Skybridge system.

----------


## Just the facts

> They've got the green square they could build on, or the light blue square.  Either one could easily fit a tower.  *They're not going to cram it into their lawn when they own both these spaces*.


I think we all agree on that.  However, a very small minority of us think they should.  There is a big difference between what they want to do, can do, will do, and should do.

And of course, LN wants skybridges.  He is in love with Le Corbusier.  You can see it in everything he touches.  Sadly, Le Corbusier destroyed more cities than godzilla.

----------


## HangryHippo

I'm sorry, but the idea of Devon putting their next skyscraper on the lawn out in front of their current tower just seems horrible to me.  Why in the hell would they do that?  That's a very nice green space.

----------


## Just the facts

> I'm sorry, but the idea of Devon putting their next skyscraper on the lawn out in front of their current tower just seems horrible to me.  Why in the hell would they do that?  That's a very nice green space.


Do you want a serious answer or will "for the same reason Sandridge is planning to put their new tower 20 feet from their current one" suffice?

----------


## HangryHippo

> Do you want a serious answer or will "for the same reason Sandridge is planning to put their new tower 20 feet from their current one" suffice?


I'll take a serious answer, if you have one.  It would look terrible.

----------


## heyerdahl

Devon's lawn is a world-class public space and an extension of the Myriad Gardens, not a vacant lot. JTF doesn't understand that there's room for urban design 101 rules to be broken even in the highest quality urban design.

----------


## Just the facts

Devon should build on their current open space because it will promote urban density, push their development out to the sidewalk like City code requires, preserve other available space for additional development, keep their employees closer together, push their current open space users over in to MBG so a future food operator (if they can ever find one) will have a customer base, define a positive space within their complex ... and those are just off the top of my head.  As far as ugly, that would be up to Devon but I don't think most people find the Colcord ugly even though it is the same distance away from the main tower as the grass is.  In fact, I think a lot people like the old and new so close.

Don't get me wrong though, I know Devon isn't going to do it.

----------


## Spartan

The Devon lawn is mid-block. It's a good place for a green space. Le Corbusier would have inverted the green space and the auditorium, so as to retreat from the intersection. Instead Devon wanted to frame Sheridan & Hudson and does so nicely. The edge along Sheridan is also nicely reinforced. It creates a very beneficial definition of space.

It's not that the rules of urbanism were meant to be broken, it's just that they're much more nuanced than people realize. 

The skybridge on the other hand is something I'm inclined to be against, but there are just some things that you concede. Are you going to hope to get Devon to work with you on preserving Hudson's viewshed, or actual buildings that have aged elegantly and should be preserved? You can only do so much and make so many demands, especially when whatever Devon does is still a huge win for OKC.

A skybridge is going to be very complicated however. It will involve some negotiations for the air rights over the city's ROW, or at least it should. That gives the city leverage to request Devon to preserve some stuff on the Preftakes block.

----------


## CaptDave

> Devon's lawn is a world-class public space and an extension of the Myriad Gardens, not a vacant lot. JTF doesn't understand that there's room for urban design 101 rules to be broken even in the highest quality urban design.


I often - heck, usually - agree with JTF on urban design and the reasons new urbanism are good ideas, but not on this one. Once you walk the streets around the Devon complex, it makes sense. The lawn is an integral part of the streetscape and the Devon building and it connects the Myriad and the office tower very well. I would like to see more streetwalls in our CBD too, but this complex has been designed and constructed at such a high level, it works very well. 

New urbanism provides very good _guidelines_ for urban design and is a well thought out group of principles, but it is not an inviolable rule.

----------


## Just the facts

Well, no point in really dwelling on it.  I understand mine isn't a popular position.  I look at activism like a coal mine.  Anyone can shovel coal out of the mine, but someone has to be down at the mine face drilling holes and putting the dynamite in.  Rock has a lot of resistance so it is dangerous work.  And of course, there are people who turn on their lights and don’t even know why it works.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

If they build a new tower, will it be a duplicate of their existing one or will they have a completely different design?

----------


## Bellaboo

> If they build a new tower, will it be a duplicate of their existing one or will they have a completely different design?


I have no clue, but I would think that they would use the same architectural firm (Pickard-Chilton) so they would at least have the same look, as in glass and steel finish. But I'd be surprised if they were identical in design.

----------


## OKCRT

So will their new tower be taller than the one they have now? Or will they go for a twin towers look?

----------


## Bellaboo

> So will their new tower be taller than the one they have now? Or will they go for a twin towers look?


Everyone is guessing 30 - 40 floors, where as their HQ is 50 floors.

----------


## Spartan

I think anyone guessing 30-40 should not be disappointed to see around 20-25. I'm not so sure we'll see them do another massive skyscraper.

I did have a thought though... I wonder if we could possibly do a second tower TIF to finish the rest of P180...

----------


## hoya

> I think anyone guessing 30-40 should not be disappointed to see around 20-25. I'm not so sure we'll see them do another massive skyscraper.
> 
> I did have a thought though... I wonder if we could possibly do a second tower TIF to finish the rest of P180...


I think they should use part of that to clean up the city building on Main Street so it looks better.

----------


## Spartan

The City really may want to look at selling their property to Preftakes in exchange for assurances that it and others will be preserved and build a new city office building.

I feel as though the 420 building could use another renovation NOW in order to be viable for another 100 years that it won't get under the city's ownership.

----------


## Pete

> I did have a thought though... I wonder if we could possibly do a second tower TIF to finish the rest of P180...


I think that's a very real possibility and wouldn't be surprised if Continental does something similar.

----------


## OKCRT

The height of next tower needs to be between the Chase and Devon IMO to balance out the skyline. Devon looks out of place with it being so massive and makes the others look small. We need several in the 40 story range to make the city skyline look right IMO.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I agree, I think the lawn would be the perfect place. It just seems very calculated, even to the point that the atrium's SW corner is somewhat jolting out that appears to be for a connection to something else. I just walked by the Devon Center and there is plenty of space on the lawn for another tower without creating a cramped environment and without it creating an awkward skyline. This just seems way more logical than having employees walk across the street to another tower when there is plenty of space available right next to everything else a part of the Devon Center.


Maybe medical marijuana needs to be approved in OK so you can go get a toke lol. They're not going to build in the lawn space. It was designed that way for a purpose.

----------


## Pete

One thing to keep in mind is that new buildings are taller now because of increased floor heights, so even a 25 story building may end up being almost as tall as Chase Tower (36 floors) and a 30-story one would almost certainly exceed it in height.

2 or 3 in the 30 to 40 floor range would slot right in between Chase and Devon.

----------


## Pete

Sid, I'm sure no one actually paying for these buildings will care about balancing the skyline, but remember that Pickard Chilton took cues from First National and also considered the surrounding building stock for their design of Devon Tower.

Although it's not a prime consideration, companies and developers do care about how their building is going to fit into the surroundings and/or how it can be distinctive without being completely out of place.

----------


## Pete

Yes, I agree with that!

And also, I think we sometimes care too much about how something looks from a distance, where how the buildings actually interact with the street and people are factors often overlooked.

That's why something like the Braniff Building is so exciting...  That building is fantastic from street level.

----------


## soonerguru

> I think anyone guessing 30-40 should not be disappointed to see around 20-25. I'm not so sure we'll see them do another massive skyscraper.
> 
> I did have a thought though... I wonder if we could possibly do a second tower TIF to finish the rest of P180...


Maybe they should use the TIF to pay for the convention center Larry Nichols obviously wants.

----------


## soonerguru

> I love the speculation but I certainly hope that no one picks the size of their tower based on how to balance our skyline.  I'm more interested in seeing sound, business decisions that will drive them to build towers that will stay full. 
> 
> I know that is what everyone wants but I guess I've always found the "balance the skyline" discussions purely aesthetic and shouldn't have any bearing on actual building height.  Or am I missing something?


Buzzkill.

----------


## 1972ford

Can someone link me to the producers coop thread I'm having a hard time locating it

----------


## Just the facts

> Maybe they should use the TIF to pay for the convention center Larry Nichols obviously wants.


Don't give them any ideas because they might actually try to do that one.

----------


## catch22

> Don't give them any ideas because they might actually try to do that one.


Better than using all of MAPS3 money.

----------


## Rover

I'm just worried that we might get another big company to move here, hire lots of people, build expensive buildings and then actually exert influence with their activist executives who might want to bring some business accumen to the city and to get involved.  Imagine the horror if we got another Larry Nichols to contend with.

----------


## Just the facts

OKC isn't big enough for two Larry's.  There aren't enough fawners to go around.

----------


## catch22

> OKC isn't big enough for two Larry's.  There aren't enough fawners to go around.


I really fail to understand the bitterness towards LN. If it weren't for him and his company, downtown would not be anywhere near what we see today. Continental would be in Houston and a lot of civic pride would not exist. Just because he is on the convention center committee is not enough to outweigh every other positive thing he has done for this city.

----------


## Just the facts

> I really fail to understand the bitterness towards LN. If it weren't for him and his company, downtown would not be anywhere near what we see today. Continental would be in Houston and a lot of civic pride would not exist. Just because he is on the convention center committee is not enough to outweigh every other positive thing he has done for this city.


I don't have any issue with Larry (although I don't like it when a person has political power/influence because he is rich).  My biggest issue is with the fawners and apologist.  Anyhow, once again I realize I am in the minority and that is okay with me.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I don't have any issue with Larry (although I don't like it when a person has political power/influence because he is rich).  My biggest issue is with the fawners and apologist.  Anyhow, once again I realize I am in the minority and that is okay with me.


After seeing the positives LN has done for our city, I guess i'm a fawner then......He could very easily not care and we'd have more of a ghost town to praise.

----------


## Popsy

[QUOTE=Just the facts;599503]I don't have any issue with Larry (although I don't like it when a person has political power/influence because he is rich).  My biggest issue is with the fawners and apologist.  Anyhow, once again I realize I am in the minority and that is okay with me.

[/QUO                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     The facts are that Larry is a winner and most of the Chamber of Commerce are winners because they risked their money to start their companys and became successful in doing so.  They didn't sit at a keyboard posting their complaints on an OKC message board. To simplify it, I say the first group referenced are winners and the second group are losers.  I would love to see some posters clamoring for retail downtown put their money up to invest in what they want to see in downtown and the success they would achieve.  The credibility of the winners is hardly a bad choice to get behind most of the time.

----------


## Just the facts

No, there was a time when things were built for the benefit of the public realm as well as the property owner.  Then companies start selling public stock and acquired a bunch of shareholders who would rather have 25 extra cents in their pocket than a .... ah, never mind.

----------


## jedicurt

> No, there was a time when things were built for the benefit of the public realm as well as the property owner.


And when was this time?  had to have been before Medieval Europe, correction... had to have been before the expansion of Rome...   This entire continent was built so that the rich of Europe could get more rich...   

have there been particular times in a particular place in which what you say took place did? yes.  but this was never the norm, it was the exception.  and that exception can occur again, if the right people with the right vision are allowed to be heard

----------


## Just the facts

> Did I say otherwise?


Sorry, I went back and read your post again and it had a different meaning the second time around  :Smile: 

Does LN do great things for OKC?  Yes he does.  Probably 95% of the time I agree with or like the things he does.  But when that other 5% comes up I don't weigh that againt the 95%, I look at it with regard to the subject at hand.  My wife and I don't agree on everything but when the differences come up I blow it off and chalk it up to the 'better or worse' clause.  But I'm not married to LN so when we disagree on something he doesn't get a pass from me (not that he cares).  I have my own agenda.  When LN helps with that agenda great, we he doesn't, that is great also but I'm not going to defer everything to him.

----------


## Just the facts

> And when was this time?  had to have been before Medieval Europe, correction... had to have been before the expansion of Rome...   This entire continent was built so that the rich of Europe could get more rich...   
> 
> have there been particular times in a particular place in which what you say took place did? yes.  but this was never the norm, it was the exception.  and that exception can occur again, if the right people with the right vision are allowed to be heard


I would say for the most part that era ended in 1949.  Look at the old Penn Station as an example.  It wasn't built with profit and loss in mind.  It was built as a monument to the railroad owners, the people it served, and the people who worked for the railroad.

The new Penn Station was built soley for profit and loss considerations.

----------


## okctalkaccount

'm a longtime lurker, this is not my normal account because I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

To fuel the wild speculation, someone close to me that works at continental resources was told by someone who would know, that seemed excited, that they would be building a new building because they do not have enough room in the current one for their growth goals for 2015. They said "you'll hear more about it soon trust me" and that that was all they could say. No mention of location/size/etc or when "soon" would be.

I can't go into details, but I will say that it is my opinion that it is highly likely that the source is both reliable and in the know, and unless something changes clr will announce something relatively soon.

----------


## hoya

> I would say for the most part that era ended in 1949.  Look at the old Penn Station as an example.  It wasn't built with profit and loss in mind.  It was built as a monument to the railroad owners, the people it served, and the people who worked for the railroad.
> 
> The new Penn Station was built soley for profit and loss considerations.


A lot of the grand architecture you love was built when construction costs were very low.  You had a lot of poor people working for little money to build those large impressive buildings.  I love all that old stuff, but when costs went up you stopped seeing it.

----------


## GaryOKC6

I truely believe that OKC is Darn lunck to Have Larry Nichols here.  He had done a lot for this city and continues to do so. after all he could have built his tower in another cith and received tax incentives for doing so. I especiallly like (and use) the improvements at the Myriad Gardens.   I personally wish we had more like him.

----------


## OKCRT

> I truely believe that OKC is Darn lunck to Have Larry Nichols here.  He had done a lot for this city and continues to do so. after all he could have built his tower in another cith and received tax incentives for doing so. I especiallly like (and use) the improvements at the Myriad Gardens.   I personally wish we had more like him.


Yes,OKC would welcome many Larry Nichols types. 

I believe that Harold Hamm is much richer than LN. Lets hope he has some of the same visions for OKC as LN does. OKC will be much better off if he does.

----------


## Rover

> I don't have any issue with Larry (although I don't like it when a person has political power/influence because he is rich).  My biggest issue is with the fawners and apologist.  Anyhow, once again I realize I am in the minority and that is okay with me.


Maybe he and the others you resent actually got rich BECAUSE they learned to succeed and to get productivity out of those around them, EARNING them power and influence.  You happen to think that respecting someone and not being jealous of their success is fawning.  Tells us more about you than him.  Don't understand the resentment.

----------


## Rover

> No, there was a time when things were built for the benefit of the public realm as well as the property owner.  Then companies start selling public stock and acquired a bunch of shareholders who would rather have 25 extra cents in their pocket than a .... ah, never mind.


You aren't naive enough to think that profit wasn't always the motive, are you?  You seem smarter than that.

Just curious...do you work for a non-profit company?  Would you go to your boss and propose building a billion dollar building just for the benefit of the public?  Let me know their reaction when you do.

----------


## Rover

> No, there was a time when things were built for the benefit of the public realm as well as the property owner.  Then companies start selling public stock and acquired a bunch of shareholders who would rather have 25 extra cents in their pocket than a .... ah, never mind.


And 40 years later was hemorrhaging money and is no longer there.  Grand edifices in the corporate domain are not sustainable.  And the public has no stomach for them.  Heck, we can't approve of a measly $250 million convention center that is modest.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I believe that Harold Hamm is much richer than LN. Lets hope he has some of the same visions for OKC as LN does. OKC will be much better off if he does.


This is my thought. I really hope this is the case.

----------


## Spartan

> Maybe they should use the TIF to pay for the convention center Larry Nichols obviously wants.


Already got "Project280" :/

----------


## Just the facts

@Rover - I'm done talking about it.

----------


## Rover

> @Rover - I'm done talking about it.


Good.

----------


## KayneMo

I still have the SketchUp model of downtown OKC I did a while ago with the conceptual, new towers. Shall I do an update? For example, a tower at the Stage Center site? Where else?

----------


## catch22

> I still have the SketchUp model of downtown OKC I did a while ago with the conceptual, new towers. Shall I do an update? For example, a tower at the Stage Center site? Where else?


Stage Center, Preftakes, 4th/EKG (even though that site has recently been cooled off by some reports, it's still possible something could happen there).

----------


## Just the facts

> I still have the SketchUp model of downtown OKC I did a while ago with the conceptual, new towers. Shall I do an update? For example, a tower at the Stage Center site? Where else?


Can you throw about a 250 footer on the Sandridge lawn just to see what it looks like?

----------


## KayneMo

Gotcha. Exactly where on the Preftakes block, btw?

----------


## Pete

> Gotcha. Exactly where on the Preftakes block, btw?


Yes please update your model!

The most likely spot on the Preftakes block is the SW corner of Main & Hudson.

----------


## Bellaboo

Duplicate post.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I still have the SketchUp model of downtown OKC I did a while ago with the conceptual, new towers. Shall I do an update? For example, a tower at the Stage Center site? Where else?


Be sure to put a 400' tower on Devons open lawn so we can see how that would ruin their vision of tying their complex into MBG.

----------


## Just the facts

> Be sure to put a 400' tower on Devons open lawn so we can see how that would ruin their vision of tying their complex into MBG.


See post 2336.

----------


## catch22

> Be sure to put a 400' tower on Devons open lawn so we can see how that would ruin their vision of tying their complex into MBG.


They did an excellent job of creating a sense of place on their lawn. JTF thinks that in order for something to be urban, the buildings MUST be pushed to the sidewalk. That is false, you can create a sense of place with trees and landscaping.

The row of trees along Sheridan wall in the street, and define the public space and wall the public space off from the street. Devon and MBG is a terrific example of using trees to define public space instead of buildings. One or the other can be used, or both. Devon uses both. They define the corner of Sheridan and Hudson with the performance theater, and they define the public space in front of the Garden Wing with trees and landscaping. 

JTF, your opinion of Devon's complex will change when you experience it at street level, not from satellite view or from pictures we take. It truly is a world class complex. The only drawback I have is the superblock. But even then, the front facing Sheridan is extremely walkable and has no feeling of "superblock", and the north side of the block is also very walkable.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> See post 2336.


Yeah...you said S A N D R I D G E. I double checked before I posted Kerry.

----------


## KayneMo

Something like this?

----------


## Just the facts

> Yeah...you said S A N D R I D G E. I double checked before I posted Kerry.


Oops - you're right.  I meant Devon.  Those oil companies all look the same to me  :Smile:

----------


## Just the facts

> JTF, your opinion of Devon's complex will change when you experience it at street level, not from satellite view or from pictures we take. It truly is a world class complex. The only drawback I have is the superblock. But even then, the front facing Sheridan is extremely walkable and has no feeling of "superblock", and the north side of the block is also very walkable.


I'll see it in 2 weeks.  Last time I saw it the building was still under construction.  Who knows, I might change my mind.

----------


## jccouger

> They did an excellent job of creating a sense of place on their lawn. JTF thinks that in order for something to be urban, the buildings MUST be pushed to the sidewalk. That is false, you can create a sense of place with trees and landscaping.
> 
> The row of trees along Sheridan wall in the street, and define the public space and wall the public space off from the street. Devon and MBG is a terrific example of using trees to define public space instead of buildings. One or the other can be used, or both. Devon uses both. They define the corner of Sheridan and Hudson with the performance theater, and they define the public space in front of the Garden Wing with trees and landscaping. 
> 
> JTF, your opinion of Devon's complex will change when you experience it at street level, not from satellite view or from pictures we take. It truly is a world class complex. The only drawback I have is the superblock. But even then, the front facing Sheridan is extremely walkable and has no feeling of "superblock", and the north side of the block is also very walkable.




I walk by the Devon Center nearly every single day and I think that grass lawn is a huge waste of space. It just doesn't look good to me. Don't get me wrong, I love everything about the structures that Devon built. I just think that somethign could go in that space and still have it function and look great. I had no idea so many of you would get so defensive about some grass in the middle of our downtown. Especially after so many of you got mad at sandridge for their forest.

----------


## catch22

> I walk by the Devon Center nearly every single day and I think that grass lawn is a huge waste of space. It just doesn't look good to me. Don't get me wrong, I love everything about the structures that Devon built. I just think that somethign could go in that space and still have it function and look great. I had no idea so many of you would get so defensive about some grass in the middle of our downtown. Especially after so many of you got mad at sandridge for their forest.


Devon's ties into an existing park. It blends from park to the building wonderfully.

SandRidge is surrounded by buildings and is trying to create a park. That's the difference.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Something like this?


I like that first angle the best ;-) Looks well balanced from the SE.

----------


## Pete

Love it!  Thanks KayneMo!

----------


## CaptDave

Nicely done KayneMo - the building on the Stage Center site looks like a small version of Willis (Sears) Tower.

----------


## Spartan

Reminds me more of the Museum Plaza in Louisville.

----------


## OKCNDN

How many employees are working in the new Devon tower?  How about average employee capacity in any tower in OKC?

----------


## Bellaboo

> How many employees are working in the new Devon tower?  How about average employee capacity in any tower in OKC?


You should probably ask this in the Devon Tower thread.

----------


## Jesseda

So the speculation is still going on.. So how many towers are still a mystery, I thought it started with one then moved to two. How many total tower rumors are running around and how many do you think are true?

----------


## hoya

> So the speculation is still going on.. So how many towers are still a mystery, I thought it started with one then moved to two. How many total tower rumors are running around and how many do you think are true?


2nd Devon tower
Continental Resources tower
OG&E tower  -- all these are probably true

2nd Sandridge tower
Convention Hotel tower -- these are supposed to be true as long as money holds out

New Oil Co HQ moving in from out of town tower -- keep your fingers crossed but don't hold your breath

----------


## Jesseda

> 2nd Devon tower
> Continental Resources tower
> OG&E tower  -- all these are probably true
> 
> 2nd Sandridge tower
> Convention Hotel tower -- these are supposed to be true as long as money holds out
> 
> New Oil Co HQ moving in from out of town tower -- keep your fingers crossed but don't hold your breath


so any predictions on when something might be announced? also who do you think will announce first?

----------


## Bellaboo

Since the crystal ball is still a little dim, it's all just guessing at this point.

My, not in the know prediction is -

1) - Continental Resources
2) - OG&E
3) - 2nd Sandridge Tower 
4) - Devon
5) - New HQ 
6) - CC Hotel

If half of these come true it would be wonderful.

----------


## jedicurt

> so any predictions on when something might be announced? also who do you think will announce first?


I have been hearing word that IF Continental announces anything it wouldn't be until the second quarter of 2013 at the earliest.  

OG&E... i have a friend who would be in the know about this and has said that he has yet to hear anything internally other than just dreams and future ambitions.  Granted he has told me that it could change at anytime once a decision were to be made by the higher ups... but that he would definitely be in the loop once that decision was made.  

as for Devon... that i don't know.  my information about them comes 3rd and 4th hand

as for a new Energy company moving here... i still keep hearing something about Williams (and it was previously mentioned on here that it might be Williams Partners).   But IF they are the company, who knows when they would announce  

And i can't completely rule out XTO.  They are spread out among several buildings in downtown Fort Worth, and while i know that they are currently looking at what they can do to stay in Fort Worth, there is a single proposal to look into elsewhere around the country to find their best options for consolidating all of their office space.  (i really don't think that they are the company that is rumored, even if they do end up moving here... and i think they are a real long shot, because they seem very happy in Fort Worth and seems like staying there is their first priority if feasible)

And please take all of this as just my opinions based upon what i have heard talking to friends who either work for these companies in positions that they would atleast have some knowledge, or are people that i trust when it comes to what they decide to share from sources that they have talked to

----------


## G.Walker

I think its safe to say we can close the "Mystery Tower" window for the next couple months, if something was going to be announced this year, they would have done it by now. The good thing is that more sources are coming out stating towers are in the works, more than a year ago. I would suspect either Devon or Continental to announce first, as they are the most logical choices to build big, the others I am still very skeptical.

----------


## Bellaboo

Let's fan the flames here a bit -

Williams CEO is Alan Armstrong, he became CEO this past January. He also obtained a bachelors degree from Oklahoma City University in 1985.

He has ties to OKC.

----------


## jedicurt

> Let's fan the flames here a bit -
> 
> Williams CEO is Alan Armstrong, he became CEO this past January. He also obtained a bachelors degree from Oklahoma City University in 1985.
> 
> He has ties to OKC.


my info on Williams kind of caught me off guard as it was brought up to me over dinner awhile back saying that they have been hearing rumors that they were looking to build in OKC.  This was not something that i asked about and we weren't even talking about downtown or development.  They has worked in the energy industry for over 40 years... and because of that has close connections to a lot of people in a lot of energy companies.   And they aren't one to just pass a rumor along.   typically they don't say anything about something they have heard unless they believe it to be true.

----------


## PhiAlpha

Heard from a VP for a large O&G company in Houston that ConocoPhillips is still discussing moving to OKC in some way. Pretty vague but interesting none the less.

----------


## lasomeday

> And i can't completely rule out XTO.  They are spread out among several buildings in downtown Fort Worth, and while i know that they are currently looking at what they can do to stay in Fort Worth, there is a single proposal to look into elsewhere around the country to find their best options for consolidating all of their office space.  (i really don't think that they are the company that is rumored, even if they do end up moving here... and i think they are a real long shot, because they seem very happy in Fort Worth and seems like staying there is their first priority if feasible)


Seriously doubt it is XTO.  They are owned by Exxon.  

I am hoping we can lure an oil company from California.  Oxy and Chevron both will be seeing their taxes sky rocket.  I don't see a reason why they would want to stay there!

I doubt ConocoPhillips is moving, but Phillips 66 just split off of ConocoPhillips and is stuck in Houston.  They both have offices in Bartlesville.....  It would be great if we could lure Phillips 66 back to Oklahoma!

Williams would be a great addition, but I don't see them leaving Tulsa..... I hope I am wrong!

Continental and Devon are just a matter of time.....  Hopefully we can have them going up at the same time!

----------


## Dale

> Seriously doubt it is XTO.  They are owned by Exxon.  
> 
> I am hoping we can lure an oil company from California.  Oxy and Chevron both will be seeing their taxes sky rocket.  I don't see a reason why they would want to stay there!
> 
> I doubt ConocoPhillips is moving, but Phillips 66 just split off of ConocoPhillips and is stuck in Houston.  They both have offices in Bartlesville.....  It would be great if we could lure Phillips 66 back to Oklahoma!
> 
> Williams would be a great addition, but I don't see them leaving Tulsa..... I hope I am wrong!
> 
> Continental and Devon are just a matter of time.....  Hopefully we can have them going up at the same time!


I have a friend in Fort Worth who'd be tickled to death if XTO consolidated in a new tower, in Fort Worth. Do you suppose that's a possibility ?

----------


## CaptDave

> I have a friend in Fort Worth who'd be tickled to death if XTO consolidated in a new tower, in Fort Worth. Do you suppose that's a possibility ?


I recall hearing Chesapeake is selling a building in Ft Worth. Not sure about size but it may be possible.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Seriously doubt it is XTO.  They are owned by Exxon.  
> 
> I am hoping we can lure an oil company from California.  Oxy and Chevron both will be seeing their taxes sky rocket.  I don't see a reason why they would want to stay there!
> 
> I doubt ConocoPhillips is moving, but Phillips 66 just split off of ConocoPhillips and is stuck in Houston.  They both have offices in Bartlesville.....  It would be great if we could lure Phillips 66 back to Oklahoma!
> 
> Williams would be a great addition, but I don't see them leaving Tulsa..... I hope I am wrong!
> 
> Continental and Devon are just a matter of time.....  Hopefully we can have them going up at the same time!


TBH I would actually like Williams to build a new tower in Tulsa. Hopefully if any "out of towner" comes into OKC it will be "out of state". I think all these other possibilities are good enough.

----------


## Just the facts

CNBC said this afternoon that oil could be about to have the bottom fall out of it because of decreasing demand in the US, fiscal cliff concerns, and the likelyhood that we go back into recession next year.  That won't bode well for any new oil-related towers.

Pro: Oil Is a Sell On 'Fiscal Cliff' Deal

----------


## PhiAlpha

> CNBC said this afternoon that oil could be about to have the bottom fall out of it because of decreasing demand in the US, fiscal cliff concerns, and the likelyhood that we go back into recession next year.  That won't bode well for any new oil-related towers.
> 
> Pro: Oil Is a Sell On 'Fiscal Cliff' Deal


True, but the bottom fell out in 2008 right after Devon announced their tower plans and they still built it. Same goes for Sandridge and Chesapeake with their construction projects that have continued despite less than ideal pricing. 

I doubt CP would relocate as well, but CP would be more likely to move than Phillips 66. CP is an upstream company and has a lot more in common with other companies here than phillips 66, which is primarily a downstream company. There is a lot more refining in the Houston area than here so it wouldn't seem to make sense for them to move from Houston. 

XTO tried to consolidate in to one Large tower in ft worth a few years ago but something fell through and they didn't build one. They have bought and renovated several buildings downtown and seem to be continuing that strategy. I think they are up to 5 or 6 now.

----------


## G.Walker

I agree, I think having the capital to engage in a massive project like a new tower is the least of Devon's and Continental's worries, they have money that has money, lol.

----------


## Just the facts

Having money to do it is one thing - having people to put in the building when you are done is another.  Devon was already in 5 other buildings so they needed a space for all of them.  Continental and Sandridge are building based on expected growth.  If the expected growth goes away so does the need for the building.  I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just relaying the economics of the day.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Having money to do it is one thing - having people to put in the building when you are done is another.  Devon was already in 5 other buildings so they needed a space for all of them.  Continental and Sandridge are building based on expected growth.  If the expected growth goes away so does the need for the building.  I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just relaying the economics of the day.


Continental is already in the Chase 'Cotter Ranch' Tower, and I believe the Corporate Tower also.

----------


## sgt. pepper

> I think its safe to say we can close the "Mystery Tower" window for the next couple months,


This thread will never close. Once another tower is built, another mystery tower will come along...once that one is built....another mystery tower will be mentioned. i guess it will have to end sometime.

----------


## skanaly

Does anybody else remember the article that started this thread? "Preftakes said a new headquarters will be built starting this year"...

----------


## HangryHippo

> Does anybody else remember the article that started this thread? "Preftakes said a new headquarters will be built starting this year"...


Looks like he was wrong.

----------


## skanaly

> Looks like he was wrong.


Ha, your right! The disapointing thing though was that he was a reliable source

----------


## G.Walker

It wasn't Preftakes, it was Mark Beffort. He started the speculation with his comments made at the 2012 Forecast Conference of the Commercial Real Estate Council of Oklahoma City back in February. But you have to remember a lot of things have changed since then, Stage Center property coming available, OPUBCO going up for sale, and new companies looking at downtown. Deals are in the works, its just things got sidetracked with those three things I have just stated. Did Beffort jump the gun with his comments, maybe, but I am sure he is reliable source.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Does anybody else remember the article that started this thread? "Preftakes said a new headquarters will be built starting this year"...


Not that it matters much, but it wasn't Preftakes, it was Beffort. I believe both are credible folks.

----------


## HangryHippo

Looks like Beffort was wrong too, haha.

----------


## Pete

It seems there are several companies taking a bit of wait-and-see approach before making an official announcement.

I bet we here something no later than 2Q of next year.

----------


## dankrutka

> But you have to remember a lot of things have changed since then


Things almost always change. That's why some of us were a little more hesitant into buying into the hype until there was something more solid. A new corporate headquarters could still move here or one of the local companies could build new, or the rumors that started much of this could have never panned out. It's good to be optimistic, but you have to expect possible change of plans and/or false rumors also. Hopefully something still happens soon...

----------


## Bellaboo

This probably isn't the correct thread, but just a paragraph in the DOK today about Equal Energy relocating it's substantial operations from Calgary to OKC.

----------


## Pete

Here's the blurb...  Not sure how many employees this will be:




> EQUAL ENERGY LOOKS TO OKLAHOMA
> Equal Energy Ltd. plans to strengthen its presence in Oklahoma after it concluded a strategic review, the Canadian company announced last week. Equal intends to relocate its technical leadership team from Calgary to Oklahoma City, while adding financial and other specialists focused on its U.S. operations. “The strategic review and our plans for the future are based on a balanced and prudent approach,” CEO Don Klapko said. “We foresee an increase in commodity prices as the global economy improves, but we also need to be mindful of the risks involved in the volatile sector in which we operate.” Equal sold its last western Canadian assets last month, leaving its holdings in central Oklahoma’s liquids-rich Hunton natural gas field as its principal remaining asset.

----------


## Pete

Looks like Equal Energy has about 125-150 employees but I'm sure some of those are out in the field and not all in the corporate HQ.

And from that blurb, it doesn't sound like they are moving all their operations, just "technical, financial and other specialists".

----------


## Just the facts

They already have an office in OKC out in the Memorial area.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Looks like Equal Energy has about 125-150 employees but I'm sure some of those are out in the field and not all in the corporate HQ.
> 
> And from that blurb, it doesn't sound like they are moving all their operations, just "technical, financial and other specialists".


No complaints here, but lets hope the international HQ rumored is more than 100 jobs. But we'll take what we can get.

----------


## HangryHippo

> No complaints here, but lets hope the international HQ rumored is more than 100 jobs. But we'll take what we can get.


I'm with you, Bellaboo.  But every little bit helps.

----------


## Spartan

> I love their name.


Yeah they're gonna have to change that if they want cred in this Cowtown :P

----------


## metro

Not to mention their white collar jobs.

----------


## G.Walker

Today is the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber Annual meeting highlighting Oklahoma City's accomplishments in 2012, and what Oklahoma City can look forward to in 2013. Something to note, is that OG&E is the signature sponsor of the event, and Pete Delaney, CEO of OG&E, is being named the new Chairman of the Chamber at this event, there is not a better stage for OG&E to announce a new tower, or at least hint to it!

----------


## Anonymous.

I think the meeting is happening right now, isn't it? [posted ~11:00am]

----------


## Pete

> Today is the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber Annual meeting highlighting Oklahoma City's accomplishments in 2012, and what Oklahoma City can look forward to in 2013. Something to note, is that OG&E is the signature sponsor of the event, and Pete Delaney, CEO of OG&E, is being named the new Chairman of the Chamber at this event, there is not a better stage for OG&E to announce a new tower, or at least hint to it!


Today is their Annual Meeting:



> Local leaders from all walks of life will be informed and motivated about our great city as we look forward to 2013.
> 
> Chamber Chairman Carl Edwards with Price Edwards & Company will share highlights from 2012 as he passes the gavel to incoming Chairman Pete B. Delaney with OGE Energy Corp



On January 24 they will hold their State of the City event:




> Mayor Mick Cornett will share key initiatives and visions for Oklahoma City's future. Additionally, Chamber Chairman, Pete Delaney, OGE Energy Corp., will share highlights of the Chamber's major strategic objectives.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

If OG&E builds new digs I don't think it'll be that one we want to see fill the gap between Chase and Devon.  It'll be more like a Frost Tower in Austin--which is still fine by me.  As long as it's on the fringe of the CBD to extend it.

----------


## Buffalo Bill

> If OG&E builds new digs I don't think it'll be that one we want to see fill the gap between Chase and Devon.  It'll be more like a Frost Tower in Austin--which is still fine by me.  As long as it's on the fringe of the CBD to extend it.


If it's Frost Tower size, both height and gross square footage, it will be between Devon and Chase.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> If it's Frost Tower size, both height and gross square footage, it will be between Devon and Chase.


Nevermind, lol.  I thought it was 430 feet...but alas, it is 15 feet taller than Chase--still not enough in my book to fit the bill (no pun intended).  That fantasy tower people are looking for needs to be like the BOK Tower in Tulsa.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Today is their Annual Meeting:
> 
> 
> 
> On January 24 they will hold their State of the City event:


I was at the Chamber's Annual Meeting today.  It was a good event but no mention of a Tower.  The State of the City event next month would be perfect.  That is usually a forum for looking ahead at the city's future development.  I guess we will have to go there and find out.

----------


## Pete

I deleted a bunch of posts that were off topic.

However, I do think it's fair to say that the current national financial instability may be causing some potential developers and business owners to take a wait-and-see attitude before making a major announcement and obligating hundreds of millions.

Hopefully that will soon be at least somewhat resolved and businesses can make decisions accordingly.

----------


## kbsooner

Pretty sure I saw a surveying truck at the 4th and Broadway location this afternoon.  Anyone else happen to see it?

----------


## Steve

> Pretty sure I saw a surveying truck at the 4th and Broadway location this afternoon.  Anyone else happen to see it?


Yes, I saw the surveying as well.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Yes, I saw the surveying as well.


I noticed it as well.

----------


## kbsooner

> Yes, I saw the surveying as well.


Did you happen to ascertain on whose behalf said survey truck was working for and for what new tower?

----------


## ljbab728

> Did you happen to ascertain on whose behalf said survey truck was working for and for what new tower?


If Steve knows that he probably won't be breaking that story here.  LOL

----------


## Bellaboo

OKC Live Chat today - 

Steve's seeing 2 new towers for 2013, but no specifics.

----------


## Jesseda

Any more info from the chat with steve?

----------


## G.Walker

Nothing new, Steve has been sticking to what he has been saying for the last year, that one of the towers will be 40 stories, and we should hear something early next year. Nothing more, nothing less, all reports from Steve about a new tower(s) have been the same.

----------


## Pete

Devon and/or Continental are the best bets for 2013 announcements IMO.

----------


## bchris02

> Nothing new, Steve has been sticking to what he has been saying for the last year, that one of the towers will be 40 stories, and we should hear something early next year. Nothing more, nothing less, all reports from Steve about a new tower(s) have been the same.


That sounds awesome.  OKC needs another tower taller than Chase but shorter than Devon to balance out the skyline.  I wonder what the second one will be?

Also, is there any chance OKC could ever get any high-rise condo/apartment towers downtown?  Cities were building them like crazy in the mid '00s.

----------


## Spartan

40 stories would be between the Chase Tower and Devon Tower.

----------


## Pete

If a new 40-story building averaged the same height per floor as Devon, that would place it almost exactly between Devon and Chase:

Devon: 850
New Tower: 680
Chase: 500

----------


## OKCRT

> If a new 40-story building averaged the same height per floor as Devon, that would place it almost exactly between Devon and Chase:
> 
> Devon: 850
> New Tower: 680
> Chase: 500


2 towers of that (680) size would really help the skyline. And then a couples more around 600 would be nice. OKC would look more like a big city if this happens. Right now the Devon makes all the other building look really short.

----------


## Spartan

> 2 towers of that (680) size would really help the skyline. And then a couples more around 600 would be nice. OKC would look more like a big city if this happens. Right now the Devon makes all the other building look really short.


You're getting ahead...

----------


## jedicurt

i firmly believe we will hear something from Continental in the second quarter of this next year

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I guess I can wait 6 months......

----------


## OKCRT

> You're getting ahead...



I bet within the next 5 years it happens. Only a matter of time so maybe I am looking ahead but it will happen.

----------


## Spartan

Skyscrapers aren't really a matter of time.

You're setting yourself up for despair. Be realistic.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Busy year awaits for downtown Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com




> What's yet to be announced will likely dwarf that figure. An anticipated announcement on a new office tower did not take place in 2012, but multiple sources have indicated that information about the mystery project should become public this year. Don't be surprised if plans for two separate tower projects are announced.

----------


## lasomeday

Still have my money on OG&E!  Devon won't build anything this year and Contintental is 50/50 in my book.  Midfirst I would bet is the other 50/50 chance.  Unless there is an unexptected company moving in that will build.  

Those are my guesses for the two towers.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'd bet on -

1). Continental

2). Devon

3). OG&E

4). Midfirst

5). Some relocation

Just because oil is king right now. And I'd pick the Stage Center site first, EKG second, Preftakes third.

Another reason I've got Continental first, Beffort knows something, and he was involved with Continental on their current HQ building transaction.

----------


## Praedura

I'm thinking Devon at Preftakes and Continental at Stage Center, and in that order (possibly switch the order, though, if the Stage Center sale goes through quickly). Both announcements in early to mid spring this year, probably not all that far apart.

Since SandRidge pro-actively purchased the parcel near EKG & 4th, I'm ruling out anything happening there any time soon.

OG&E and MidFirst are likely candidates for additional highrises, but I'm guessing this will be later on, probably not in 2013. And I have no idea where.

Of course, this is sheer speculation on my part -- I have zero expertise (or insider knowledge) to base this on. But hey, speculation is fun.

----------


## jedicurt

> I'm thinking Devon at Preftakes and Continental at Stage Center, and in that order (possibly switch the order, though, if the Stage Center sale goes through quickly). Both announcements in early to mid spring this year, probably not all that far apart.
> 
> Since SandRidge pro-actively purchased the parcel near EKG & 4th, I'm ruling out anything happening there any time soon.
> 
> OG&E and MidFirst are likely candidates for additional highrises, but I'm guessing this will be later on, probably not in 2013. And I have no idea where.
> 
> Of course, this is sheer speculation on my part -- I have zero expertise (or insider knowledge) to base this on. But hey, speculation is fun.


I agree with you on Devon (preftakes), Continental (stage center), and SandRidge (keeping EKG a grassy spot)...

OG&E i don't know, i hope they build, but i don't know... and a year ago i would have told you i was almost certain that MidFirst was going to build, then they made the offer that AF came over the top on for the OPUBCO building, and now i'm not so sure that they are still looking at moving.  I'm starting to think that they regret not taking the money from Chesapeake when they had the chance.  Cause now if they decide to move, they may actually have to sale their current offices for around fair market value

----------


## s00nr1

Call me a skeptic but I just can't see Devon building a new tower in the current energy climate. It's fair to say DVN's stock price is a reflection upon where the market is right now and does not bode well for new sizeable construction.

Now Continental on the other hand is in a completely different position considering the lack of space they currently have and their exponential growth in the Bakken.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> Call me a skeptic but I just can't see Devon building a new tower in the current energy climate. It's fair to say DVN's stock price is a reflection upon where the market is right now and does not bode well for new sizeable construction.


I agree with you. I think that even if Devon _wants_ to build the tower and _is planning_ on building the tower, they will hold off on announcing it until their stock price improves, as it might be bad optics to do it now.

----------


## okcfollower

I think we should all just hope sandridge doesn't fall apart or get sold. That would probably stop a new tower from being built because their current space would be what one of these other companies would probably be building and could just buy from then (Midfirst or continental) so if we want to see a new tower we better hope SD doesn't collapse.

----------


## BoulderSooner

i have heard from a very good source that 3 new towers will most likely be announced in 2013 with one being an out of state company

----------


## jedicurt

> i have heard from a very good source that 3 new towers will most likely be announced in 2013 with one being an out of state company


any idea of who/where this out of state company is/is from?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> any idea of who/where this out of state company is/is from?


i don't

----------


## Bellaboo

> i have heard from a very good source that 3 new towers will most likely be announced in 2013 with one being an out of state company


Any possible time line clues given for announcements ? Which qtr in 2013 ?

----------


## catch22

> Any possible time line clues given for announcements ? Which qtr in 2013 ?


Well, if there's 3. I'll say Q1 2013, Q2 2013, and Q3 2013.  :Smile:

----------


## OKCRT

Like I said,just a matter of time before we see these towers built.

----------


## dankrutka

> i have heard from a very good source that 3 new towers will most likely be announced in 2013 with one being an out of state company


Yeah, we've been hearing this for a year now. Except they were supposed to be announced in 2012. Forgive me, but I'll wait for something a little more solid than "my friend said towers will be built but I know absolutely nothing about who will build them" line. We've seen it many times before.

----------


## catch22

> Yeah, we've been hearing this for a year now. Except they were supposed to be announced in 2012. Forgive me, but I'll wait for something a little more solid than "my friend said towers will be built but I know absolutely nothing about who will build them" line. We've seen it many times before.


BoulderSooner never really has been one to throw out information unless he is fairly certain or confident in what he is being told. So I wouldn't dismiss it that quickly, although I do understand what you are saying. There has been a lot of circular reference going on with these Mystery Projects.

----------


## Teo9969

> i have heard from a very good source that 3 new towers will most likely be announced in 2013 with one being an out of state company


Was the term specifically "out of state" or "out of town"? Based on what has been passed around the thread, that detail is pretty significant.

----------


## Praedura

> Was the term specifically "out of state" or "out of town"? Based on what has been passed around the thread, that detail is pretty significant.


Hey, even if they're "out of their mind"... if it means building a 3rd new tower downtown, then I say bring it on baby!  :Wink:

----------


## dankrutka

> BoulderSooner never really has been one to throw out information unless he is fairly certain or confident in what he is being told. So I wouldn't dismiss it that quickly, although I do understand what you are saying. There has been a lot of circular reference going on with these Mystery Projects.


Just to clarify, no disrespect meant to BoulderSooner as he has been a solid poster. We've just seen the same rumors over and over now so I'm just not going to get too excited until there's more information to go on...

----------


## soonerguru

> i have heard from a very good source that 3 new towers will most likely be announced in 2013 with one being an out of state company


Here we go again! 

Seriously, though, I hope you're right.

----------


## LuccaBrasi

I've not read this thread in a while and know this has been endlessly tossed around, but for what it is worth, I was in a multi-person discussion with Mark Beffort a couple of months back and had the chance to specifically ask him about rumors that Devon might be building a 2nd tower. His response was "yep, it's already in the works", so let your mind wonder what exactly that meant because I unfortunately did not have the chance to ask any follow-up questions before he took off......

----------


## Teo9969

There's no reason to think that nothing is in the works. I think most people assume that there are plenty of towers being planned. I think many are just hesitant to believe that it's a foregone conclusion that they'll actually be built.

In terms of timeline...based on the way that AF moved to the old building, it wouldn't be surprising if they were the company many thought may announce in 2012. That may have (though not likely) motivated someone else to announce before 2012 ended, driving the speculation of multiple towers being announced in 2012. I would assume though, that the companies that many are expecting to announce in 2013, were originally anticipating announcing this year anyway...

----------


## Praedura

I want a new tower in downtown OKC.



And another one.



And another one.



I just want...
.
.
.
Towers!!!




More, more, more!!!



(...sorry...)

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I want a new tower in downtown OKC.
> More, more, more!!!
> (...sorry...)


I understand.

----------


## Praedura

> I understand.


Thanks man, 'preesh.

Sometimes the wait, wait, waiting just gets to ya, ya know...
 :Smiley099:

----------


## Bellaboo

Okay,

I've read this several times that these announcements are in motion, 'in the works' as they say. Well, they need to work a little harder, longer and faster. lol

----------


## okcfollower

> Okay,
> 
> I've read this several times that these announcements are in motion, 'in the works' as they say. Well, they need to work a little harder, longer and faster. lol


I think those with connections have worked hard & long and already know something official...but they can't tell yet. For the rest of us...it's a waiting game.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Okay here's a question. Lets say, Continental is planning a new tower. If they wanted to keep this as classified as the U.S. governments does when they find aliens, how many people would know about this new tower. 5-10 people maybe? Also, I don't fully understand why they would keep this a top secret project. I know they wouldn't want to go scream it off of a mountain, but would they really go to the end of the earth to keep their new tower a secret until everyone knows?

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Okay here's a question. Lets say, Continental is planning a new tower. If they wanted to keep this as classified as the U.S. governments does when they find aliens, how many people would know about this new tower. 5-10 people maybe? Also, I don't fully understand why they would keep this a top secret project. I know they wouldn't want to go scream it off of a mountain, but would they really go to the end of the earth to keep their new tower a secret until everyone knows?


Continental may not want to say anything until they have bought the land and have plans in hand to prevent someone from buying the land out from under them.  With that being said.  I know of a new energy company that will make an announcement in the next week or so that they are moving to okc.  they bought son operations in Shawnee and plan to integrate them into their operations.  I will be a big deal but there is no mention of a new building from them either.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

The ADHD exhibited in this thread is constant entertainment.

----------


## catch22

> Okay here's a question. Lets say, Continental is planning a new tower. If they wanted to keep this as classified as the U.S. governments does when they find aliens, how many people would know about this new tower. 5-10 people maybe? Also, I don't fully understand why they would keep this a top secret project. I know they wouldn't want to go scream it off of a mountain, but would they really go to the end of the earth to keep their new tower a secret until everyone knows?


Need to make sure all of your ducks are in a row before you make an announcement.

----------


## Praedura

> Need to make sure all of your ducks are in a row before you make an announcement.


"all your ducks in a row..." Aha! This is a hint!!!

Something to do with ducks... or water... or hunting. I get it! Bass Pro is expanding -- needs a new world headquarters.

No wait... birds, fowl, poultry... Yes, Tyson chicken is building a new HQ in OKC!

No wait... ducks... Daffy Duck... entertainment... Good gracious, Warner Brothers is building a new theme park in OKC! 

No wait...




> The ADHD exhibited in this thread is constant entertainment.


What ever, sir, could you be talking about?

 :Wink:

----------


## Steve

Since I've been quoted a lot on this topic, let me just add this: there are so many names floating around, I really wonder which ones are correct. My sources insist a deal is about to pop soon, but they've got me very confused as to who will own the thing!

----------


## Spartan

> Since I've been quoted a lot on this topic, let me just add this: there are so many names floating around, I really wonder which ones are correct. My sources insist a deal is about to pop soon, but they've got me very confused as to who will own the thing!


Any timetable update on the Stage Center decision?

On a side note, I'm hearing from about 10 different people in the last month...OG+E is for real. Interesting site possibly...

----------


## Teo9969

I hate this thread...

I love this thread, but I hate it.

----------


## 1972ford

Here's the announcement everyone is waiting for...


.....



.....






.....




I'm building a 10" Lego tower downtown.  The announcement is finally out.  I shall build this tower on a 5"x5" parcel of land just south of the peake

----------


## SoonerBoy18

> i have heard from a very good source that 3 new towers will most likely be announced in 2013 with one being an out of state company


I will make sure NOT to forget this post in all of 2013.

----------


## Just the facts

> Here's the announcement everyone is waiting for...
> I'm building a 10" Lego tower downtown.  The announcement is finally out.  I shall build this tower on a 5"x5" parcel of land just south of the peake


You might want to use this to get your design down first.  Even a Lego tower needs to start with a blueprint.

LEGO.com Digital Designer Virtual Building Software

----------


## Jesseda

Now this is just a rumor but I heard from a good source that Hugh Hefner is looking at launching a new magazine and that he is planning on building a HQ for his new adventure right here in OKC, the new Magazine is going to be called Thunder Bunnies.

----------


## Just the facts

I am actually afraid to Google 'Thunder Bunnies' to see if this is remotely true.  :Smile:

----------


## Jesseda

lol, dont do it, it was just a rumor joke. But hey with all the other rumors flying around on this mystery tower I just wanted to throw one funny one in.

----------


## Bellaboo

This is just another one of life's lessons in patience....

Now, adding to the speculation of location, let's find some good vantage points for the camera(s), when that day finally does come......

----------


## Just the facts

Myth Busted:

Turns out 'Thunder Bunny' is a 225hp version of a VW Rabbit



Neuspeed's Volkswagen Rabbit - Thunder Bunny II




> In the early '80s, Automotive Performance Systems--a company we know today as Neuspeed--modified a VW Rabbit and made history. Volkswagen was still trying to convince an air-cooled-Bug-loving public that its water-cooled technology was the future. This Rabbit traced a big, smoky burnout across the pages of Road & Track magazine, which coined the term Thunder Bunny. That's when the water-cooled VW tuning scene took off in the United States.

----------


## Praedura

> Myth Busted:
> 
> Turns out 'Thunder Bunny' is a 225hp version of a VW Rabbit
> 
> 
> 
> Neuspeed's Volkswagen Rabbit - Thunder Bunny II


That's it! Volkswagen is building a new tower in OKC!!!  Who would have ever guessed?  :Wink:

----------


## Just the facts

> That's it! Volkswagen is building a new tower in OKC!!!  Who would have ever guessed?


You heard it here first.

----------


## Jesseda

> That's it! Volkswagen is building a new tower in OKC!!!  Who would have ever guessed?


and for some of you to think that I was making Thunder bunnies up.. Shame on you  :Smile:

----------


## Pete

Hearing more and more chatter about OG&E building downtown.

No idea about the exact location (they had hired a real estate firm to assist them) or height, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get an announcement within a few months.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Hearing more and more chatter about OG&E building downtown.
> 
> No idea about the exact location (they had hired a real estate firm to assist them) or height, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get an announcement within a few months.


I have zero inside info, but back in the day (early '80's), they were planning a 28 story building. This source coming from a man whose son was a developer at the time. I know this is in no way connected to what might happen now.

----------


## Pete

Yes, OG&E proposed building a new tower next to it's existing HQ -- there is an old rendering somewhere and it was very underwhelming.

Seems they are committed to doing it right this time.  Just another sign the standards have been raised downtown.

----------


## Praedura

> Hearing more and more chatter about OG&E building downtown.
> 
> No idea about the exact location (they had hired a real estate firm to assist them) or height, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get an announcement within a few months.


Kewl! I hope this is more than just rumors.

Now that I think about it... if OG&E is expanding and needs a new building... why not build... (drumroll please)... 4 new highrises?
They could build an 'O' tower, a 'G' tower, a '&' tower, and a 'E' tower! All right next to each other so that it spells out the company name.

After all, you want to have plenty of room for future expansion, right?
 :Wink:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Kewl! I hope this is more than just rumors.
> 
> Now that I think about it... if OG&E is expanding and needs a new building... why not build... (drumroll please)... 4 new highrises?
> They could build an 'O' tower, a 'G' tower, a '&' tower, and a 'E' tower! All right next to each other so that it spells out the company name.
> 
> After all, you want to have plenty of room for future expansion, right?


I just hope they build a massive tower. I know I keep complaining about this, but, I think Devon scaling back was OKC'S one true chance for a super-tall and we missed it.  :Frown:  I don't know if that will ever happen again. I mean there's nothing in Dallas that I would consider a super-tall. But, who knows. Just out of curiosity how long (if ever) was the Devon Tower anticipated?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

OKC doesn't need a super tall until there's more balance to the skyline.  Imagine that sore thumb or middle finger had it been any taller.  I'm glad Devon scaled back.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> OKC doesn't need a super tall until there's more balance to the skyline.  Imagine that sore thumb or middle finger had it been any taller.  I'm glad Devon scaled back.


I understand that would stick out. But, I still think Devon should've built higher while they had the chance. More building can always come in and fill/balance out the skyline, but a super-tall??? That's very common to get in almost any city. I know SanFran had a massive skyscraper in the works and was like twice the size of any building they currently had. Don't know if that is still going through. I love to see cities grow.  :Smile:

----------


## catch22

There's no shame in the size of Devon...

The general public doesn't really care if it's considered a super-tall on a list. People from larger cities still slam us even after this tower was built. A friend of mine from DFW that comes up to OKC frequently commented on a picture of Devon on Facebook, saying how Dallas has about 25 towers taller than Devon and they even use other colors than green. Also, that they should have just built it in a real city such as Dallas or Houston. (All untrue statements) A friend of mine from New York City mentions how we have absolutely nothing here, besides a few dive bars in Bricktown. (Also untrue statements) A buddy of mine who lives in a uch smaller city, gives me grief about living in North Dallas and not having anything here.

Haters gonna hate, a extra 75 feet on the top of Devon to put it in a group of super-tall towers will not change that. Having more smaller towers and a denser and more vibrant urban environment will change that over time.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

No not all!!! Don't get me wrong, I love Devon and am so happy they built their tower. We could have nothing and that would be awful. I guess once something is built, is in me to find something wrong with it and try and think what could've been done to make it better. I don't know why I do that though. :/

----------


## UnFrSaKn

One of the reasons I don't care for either cities.

----------


## bchris02

> There's no shame in the size of Devon...
> 
> *The general public doesn't really care if it's considered a super-tall on a list. People from larger cities still slam us even after this tower was built. A friend of mine from DFW that comes up to OKC frequently commented on a picture of Devon on Facebook, saying how Dallas has about 25 towers taller than Devon and they even use other colors than green. Also, that they should have just built it in a real city such as Dallas or Houston. (All untrue statements) A friend of mine from New York City mentions how we have absolutely nothing here, besides a few dive bars in Bricktown. (Also untrue statements) A buddy of mine who lives in a uch smaller city, gives me grief about living in North Dallas and not having anything here.*
> 
> Haters gonna hate, a extra 75 feet on the top of Devon to put it in a group of super-tall towers will not change that. Having more smaller towers and a denser and more vibrant urban environment will change that over time.


OKC has a deeply ingrained negative stereotype in the national consciousness.  On City-Data forum, every time a "worst city" thread comes up or "most boring city", watch out because there is going to be a lot of OKC bashing.  Anytime this city is mentioned with outsiders it seems like few people have anything good to say about it.  When I told me friends in Charlotte I was moving to OKC, one asked me if they had electricity here and another asked me if people still used outhouses.  While thanks to the Pei Plan, some of its reputation is deserving, much of it is greatly exaggerated in 2013.  

OKC today, even after all the improvements, probably still isn't where it should be for its size but its much better than 20 years ago and barring a local economic disaster will only continue to improve.  That said, people who believe stereotypes generally get defensive when you try to tell them they aren't accurate and there is little anybody can do to change their mind about them.

My hope is that downtown OKC continues to become more dense and vibrant, much like it was prior to the Pei Plan.  I would like to see more shops, bars, entertainment, etc outside of Bricktown.  Many cities have retail and eateries on the first floor of their skyscrapers at street level.  In Charlotte, they have the Epicentre area which can be compared to OKC's bricktown, but the rest of downtown is pretty vibrant as well.  It looks as if OKC is slowly starting to head in that direction even today.  I hope new towers that get built are built with that in mind.

Personally, a clear sign that this city has turned a corner in the national consciousnesses is when major national retailers start to opt for OKC for their first location in the state rather than Tulsa.  I don't think we are there yet.

----------


## dankrutka

I think having a super tall downtown is very unimportant. Density is more important. If rather have 2 well designed 450 feet towers then one 900 foot one to be honest.

----------


## MDot

> I think having a super tall downtown is very unimportant. Density is more important. If rather have 2 well designed 450 feet towers then one 900 foot one to be honest.


Same here. Especially now that we have an 850 ft tower, but even before that density is better. It just adds to what's already there.

----------


## ThePlainsman

> There's no shame in the size of Devon...
> 
> The general public doesn't really care if it's considered a super-tall on a list. People from larger cities still slam us even after this tower was built. A friend of mine from DFW that comes up to OKC frequently commented on a picture of Devon on Facebook, saying how Dallas has about 25 towers taller than Devon and they even use other colors than green. Also, that they should have just built it in a real city such as Dallas or Houston. (All untrue statements) A friend of mine from New York City mentions how we have absolutely nothing here, besides a few dive bars in Bricktown. (Also untrue statements) A buddy of mine who lives in a uch smaller city, gives me grief about living in North Dallas and not having anything here.
> 
> Haters gonna hate, a extra 75 feet on the top of Devon to put it in a group of super-tall towers will not change that. Having more smaller towers and a denser and more vibrant urban environment will change that over time.


Did you tell your boy that 1) Dallas only has two taller than the Devon tower, and 2)Ugh...Dallas.  I can't imagine living there.  It's so pretentious.  I've never seen the appeal man. I'd probably never go there if it weren't for the OU/tx game.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Never know where to share these...

Oklahoma City pops back to No. 1 slot in economic rankings - The Business Journals

----------


## Bellaboo

> Did you tell your boy that 1)* Dallas only has two taller than the Devon tower*, and 2)Ugh...Dallas.  I can't imagine living there.  It's so pretentious.  I've never seen the appeal man. I'd probably never go there if it weren't for the OU/tx game.


Actually only 1. The other building has an add on antenna, if you check the roof height on that building, it's more around 700 ft.

----------


## soonerguru

Can someone send these reporters / media organizations updated images of our skyline? The ones you see accompanying these stories are usually hideous. It's almost like they troll the net for the worst-possible images of our city they can find.

----------


## bchris02

> Can someone send these reporters / media organizations updated images of our skyline? The ones you see accompanying these stories are usually hideous. It's almost like they troll the net for the worst-possible images of our city they can find.


Agreed. Even Pre-Devon tower, there were much better skyline shots than what is typically shown. I sometimes wonder if the national media displays the worst shots on purpose. At least they are showing the skyline rather than a two-lane road with a blowing tumbleweed (I've seen that before).

----------


## Praedura

> Never know where to share these...
> 
> Oklahoma City pops back to No. 1 slot in economic rankings - The Business Journals


That really is pretty amazing. For all the grousing done on this forum... hey, we must be doing something right.

----------


## MikeLucky

> That really is pretty amazing. For all the grousing done on this forum... hey, we must be doing something right.


I compare it to Sooner fans...  Bob Stoops won a National Championship in his second season, and now because he has the audicity to finish in the top 15 and only win 10 games, you have many OU fans wanting him fired.

It's the equivalent of OKC passing and executing something like MAPS and experiencing unprecedented growth, only now to see people on this message board clamor for Choctaw to look like Philadelphia.

----------


## Just the facts

Some times it pays to be the cleanest dirty shirt in the hamper.

----------


## adaniel

> That really is pretty amazing. For all the grousing done on this forum... hey, we must be doing something right.


Friend is a Realtor and says relocation from other parts of the county to here is still quite strong. 

There was recently a Slate article that touted this area's low unemployment. Pretty good write up, although I found it funny the author's Tulsa friends made sure to mention to him how culturally superior Tulsa is to OKC.

Still for an area that supposedly has a "deeply ingrained negative stereotype" we're not doing half bad.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Comments on that article are a joke.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Comments on that article are a joke.


Usually the people that have negative comments on some type of business article have extreme issues and  complexes......or they're about 14 years old...or they are from Seattle and still mad.....those folks can stay away as far as i'm concerned.

----------


## Rover

> Some times it pays to be the cleanest dirty shirt in the hamper.


What is that supposed to mean?

----------


## okcpulse

> There's no shame in the size of Devon...
> 
> The general public doesn't really care if it's considered a super-tall on a list. People from larger cities still slam us even after this tower was built. A friend of mine from DFW that comes up to OKC frequently commented on a picture of Devon on Facebook, saying how Dallas has about 25 towers taller than Devon and they even use other colors than green. Also, that they should have just built it in a real city such as Dallas or Houston. (All untrue statements) A friend of mine from New York City mentions how we have absolutely nothing here, besides a few dive bars in Bricktown. (Also untrue statements) A buddy of mine who lives in a uch smaller city, gives me grief about living in North Dallas and not having anything here.
> 
> Haters gonna hate, a extra 75 feet on the top of Devon to put it in a group of super-tall towers will not change that. Having more smaller towers and a denser and more vibrant urban environment will change that over time.


People like your friend in Dallas have zero clues as to how cities really develop.  Their mental complex disallows them from truly appreciating urban development on many levels.  

For those who say we have nothing here... They can never identify what okc is missing.  Only that it has 'nothing'.  That's not a well backed up claim.  These people truly believe that simply living in a major market grants them instant access to all the credibility in the world.  I would never allow these people to sit in a conference room to provide input on a design meeting.  I have had enough conversations with Texans that make me all too familiar with this scenario.

----------


## mmonroe

At least OPUBCO is moving back downtown...

----------


## bchris02

> Comments on that article are a joke.


Having lived in several places around the country, that is indeed how most people view OKC. If you try to defend it they will laugh at you because they have already made up their mind that the stereotype is true. 

Tulsa and Little Rock also share this kind of perception.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> Comments on that article are a joke.


Only the worst people comment on news articles.  The newsok comments kill me.

Anonymous internet commentary is an extremely inaccurate gage of public opinion.

----------


## Just the facts

> What is that supposed to mean?


It means this index has only been out for 6 months and the rest of the country is still on shaky financial ground left over from 2008.  I like the fact that OKC is in first pace but anyone can lead a NASCAR lap while everyone else is in the pits during a caution.  I would like to see OKC up front when the pack is running at full speed.

Now back to mystery towers.

----------


## bchris02

> It means this index has only been out for 6 months and the rest of the country is still on shaky financial ground left over from 2008.  I like the fact that OKC is in first pace but anyone can lead a NASCAR lap while everyone else is in the pits during a caution.  I would like to see OKC up front when the pack is running at full speed.
> 
> Now back to mystery towers.


Well to be fair OKC's unemployment rate was down around 3% I think prior to 2008, still one of the lowest even in that time. This city is unlikely to be a true boomtown though until it can shake its stereotypes.

----------


## Just the facts

I don't know bchris02.  I think OKC is poised to be the next great urban city.

----------


## okcpulse

> Having lived in several places around the country, that is indeed how most people view OKC. If you try to defend it they will laugh at you because they have already made up their mind that the stereotype is true. 
> 
> Tulsa and Little Rock also share this kind of perception.


But here is the best part, a lot of people who have made up their mind about their OKC stereotype drop their jaw when they see OKC for themselves.  Famke Jensen was impressed, filming crews of numerous shows were impressed, including the American Idol staff and cast, The Bachelor and several other traveling shows.  Even some of my own inlaws and friends from California were so impressed with OKC they have either made return visits or they plan to come back.

Others won't be impressed, and that is fine.  You can't please everyone.  My greatest satisfaction is selling someone on OKC.  When I accomplish that, I always feel like I have moved mountains.

----------


## okcpulse

I especially like Nigel Lythgoe's quote... "Oklahoma City was nothing how I imagined it."

It'll keep happening until the general public throws in the towel, tosses their hands in the air and gasp "alright, alright, so I was wrong."

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Oklahoma City's growth to shine on "American Idol" | NewsOK.com

----------


## bchris02

> But here is the best part, a lot of people who have made up their mind about their OKC stereotype drop their jaw when they see OKC for themselves.  Famke Jensen was impressed, filming crews of numerous shows were impressed, including the American Idol staff and cast, The Bachelor and several other traveling shows.  Even some of my own inlaws and friends from California were so impressed with OKC they have either made return visits or they plan to come back.
> 
> Others won't be impressed, and that is fine.  You can't please everyone.  My greatest satisfaction is selling someone on OKC.  When I accomplish that, I always feel like I have moved mountains.


Agreed.  People from out of state who actually make a visit are more often impressed with the city than not.  They come in with such low expectations their mind is blown when they see what this city does in fact offer.  The stereotype is greatly exaggerated and is largely holdover from the 1980s and 90s.  The more positive publicity OKC gets the better.

----------


## Thundercitizen

The success of the Thunder will continue to be a prime vehicle for projecting a positive OKC impression.

----------


## Rover

> It means this index has only been out for 6 months and the rest of the country is still on shaky financial ground left over from 2008.  I like the fact that OKC is in first pace but anyone can lead a NASCAR lap while everyone else is in the pits during a caution.  I would like to see OKC up front when the pack is running at full speed.
> 
> Now back to mystery towers.


Why try so hard to always put a negative spin on something positive about our city?  Instead of realizing that OKC has done amazing things over the past few years, because of your obvious disdain for the business and civic leaders here, you are loathe to give the city it's due.  Sometimes we can be proud.  We aren't all stupid and just happen to succeed because others didn't.

----------


## Teo9969

I think perception will change a lot over the next 5 years. Though I feel we need to focus on other markets/demographics that can project our image to more people. I think the sports and business/energy markets are fine. We need to find ways to get the word out in relatively untapped markets like the entertainment industry or the arts (of course, that means finding a way to negotiate the fact that we're not strong in either of those markets).

Probably the biggest demographic that needs to "get out there" more is the center and left political demographics. This is definitely a conservative city, but a lot of people seem to think that there is nary a liberal in the entire 600+ square miles.

----------


## bchris02

> I think perception will change a lot over the next 5 years. Though I feel we need to focus on other markets/demographics that can project our image to more people. I think the sports and business/energy markets are fine. We need to find ways to get the word out in relatively untapped markets like the entertainment industry or the arts (of course, that means finding a way to negotiate the fact that we're not strong in either of those markets).
> 
> Probably the biggest demographic that needs to "get out there" more is the center and left political demographics. This is definitely a conservative city, but a lot of people seem to think that there is nary a liberal in the entire 600+ square miles.


The city, in my opinion, needs to also market itself to young professionals, and that also means focusing on things that would attract young professionals.  Cities like Austin and Charlotte have realized this over the past decade and it has paid off.  Charlotte has managed to retain its family-friendly image yet still attract young professionals with it's downtown and hipster enclaves.  OKC is very family oriented and that's great, but if this city is going to keep its college graduates and attract in-migrant twentysomethings, there needs to be more catered to that demographic.  A lot of people in their early 20s coming out of college will take a lesser job elsewhere over a better job in OKC simply because the other city is more desirable for them and offers more for them.  OKC being so conservative is going to have a more difficult time with that demographic, but it can be done.  Yes, its a transient demographic, but young professionals also have plenty of disposable income, more-so than a family with children.

41% of Oklahoma County voted for Obama so this county is actually reddish-purple.  If every liberal or liberal leaning moderate in Oklahoma County would have voted in 2012, the county maybe could have been turned blue.  Oklahoma voter turnout is pretty low since this state is pretty much guaranteed to the Republican candidate.

----------


## ljbab728

> The city, in my opinion, needs to also market itself to young professionals, and that also means focusing on things that would attract young professionals.


How would you suggest that the city do that and what things can the city focus on in your opinion.  Also, when you say the city, exactly what does that mean?

----------


## Teo9969

> *How would you suggest that the city do that and what things can the city focus on in your opinion.*  Also, when you say the city, exactly what does that mean?


Being one of the recent college graduates, this city desperately needs a late-night district that's nothing like Bricktown. It needs a place where there are 10 bars within close walking distance and where hundreds of the under 40 crowd congregate every weekend with decent turnout on the weeknights as well.

OKC needs a district where Edna's, Speakeasy, Drunken Fry, Kamps, Nova, McNellie's, Deep Deuce Grill, and Saints are all right next to each other (okay, too many different concepts for that to actually be a good idea, but you get the point). I don't think we need a 6th street...and honestly, I don't want one, as all of those bars on 6th street feel the same. We need something like Rainey Street in Austin.

I expect that MidTown will become that district...but OKC could really use an entrepreneur (single or entity) to develop 3 to 5 bars in that area.

Aside from the bar scene...at some point this city needs to address the fact that all we care about is sports and that the rest of the entertainment industry suffers greatly here, music and art particularly. OKC needs more music of all types badly.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Being one of the recent college graduates, this city desperately needs a late-night district that's nothing like Bricktown. It needs a place where there are 10 bars within close walking distance and where hundreds of the under 40 crowd congregate every weekend with decent turnout on the weeknights as well.
> 
> OKC needs a district where Edna's, Speakeasy, Drunken Fry, Kamps, Nova, McNellie's, Deep Deuce Grill, and Saints are all right next to each other (okay, too many different concepts for that to actually be a good idea, but you get the point). I don't think we need a 6th street...and honestly, I don't want one, as all of those bars on 6th street feel the same. We need something like Rainey Street in Austin.
> 
> I expect that MidTown will become that district...*but OKC could really use an entrepreneur (single or entity) to develop 3 to 5 bars in that area*.
> 
> Aside from the bar scene...at some point this city needs to address the fact that all we care about is sports and that the rest of the entertainment industry suffers greatly here, music and art particularly. OKC needs more music of all types badly.


Give me a little bit and I might that "entrepreneur" if things happen in my favor.  :Wink:  .... Someone will likely come along before me though. Anyway I agree with you.  :Smile:

----------


## Teo9969

> Give me a little bit and I might that "entrepreneur" if things happen in my favor.  .... Someone will likely come along before me though. Anyway I agree with you.


Be the one to get a group together...Use other people's money ;-P

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Be the one to get a group together...Use other people's money ;-P


Yeah I know right. haha

----------


## dankrutka

> Being one of the recent college graduates, this city desperately needs a late-night district that's nothing like Bricktown. It needs a place where there are 10 bars within close walking distance and where hundreds of the under 40 crowd congregate every weekend with decent turnout on the weeknights as well.
> 
> OKC needs a district where Edna's, Speakeasy, Drunken Fry, Kamps, Nova, McNellie's, Deep Deuce Grill, and Saints are all right next to each other (okay, too many different concepts for that to actually be a good idea, but you get the point).


I've been saying this for a while. It's amazing how OKC has no bar districts outside of Bricktown (which is great, but much more appealing to tourists than young local yuppies). OKC needs something like Tulsa's Brady District, which has 10-15 bars within walking disitance (and just half a mile from another bar district (Blue Dome). OKC has nothing comparable.

----------


## adaniel

To get this back on topic (and throw a little fuel on the fire), had dinner with a friend last night who works for OG&E in their procurement and contracting department. She did not know of any pending announcements, but had something of a "now that I think about it" moment later on. It seems that OG&E has not renewed their leases for quite a bit of their office space. Their staff has been complaining for years about how scattered they are. Also, their midstream subsidiary Enogex is growing like a weed and are already running tight on office space in Leadership Square. 

Just something to think about....

----------


## bchris02

> Being one of the recent college graduates, this city desperately needs a late-night district that's nothing like Bricktown. It needs a place where there are 10 bars within close walking distance and where hundreds of the under 40 crowd congregate every weekend with decent turnout on the weeknights as well.
> 
> OKC needs a district where Edna's, Speakeasy, Drunken Fry, Kamps, Nova, McNellie's, Deep Deuce Grill, and Saints are all right next to each other (okay, too many different concepts for that to actually be a good idea, but you get the point). I don't think we need a 6th street...and honestly, I don't want one, as all of those bars on 6th street feel the same. We need something like Rainey Street in Austin.
> 
> I expect that MidTown will become that district...but OKC could really use an entrepreneur (single or entity) to develop 3 to 5 bars in that area.
> 
> Aside from the bar scene...at some point this city needs to address the fact that all we care about is sports and that the rest of the entertainment industry suffers greatly here, music and art particularly. OKC needs more music of all types badly.


You hit the nail on the head here. These weaknesses in OKC are enough to cause young professionals who don't have ties to a specific area to look elsewhere. I have coworkers who drive to Tulsa a couple times per month for the nightlife. In a city of 1.3 million, that should not be necissary. I also fully agree on there being an increased focus on the arts and other forms of entertainment besides sports. I think there is a market for it here it just hasn't been tapped into. If OKC can overcome those two hurdles, it can become a more attractive place for young professionals.

----------


## Bellaboo

> To get this back on topic (and throw a little fuel on the fire), had dinner with a friend last night who works for OG&E in their procurement and contracting department. She did not know of any pending announcements, but had something of a "now that I think about it" moment later on. It seems that OG&E has not renewed their leases for quite a bit of their office space. Their staff has been complaining for years about how scattered they are. Also, their midstream subsidiary Enogex is growing like a weed and are already running tight on office space in Leadership Square. 
> 
> Just something to think about....


Not sure how old their wiki link is, bit I checked their employee count the other day and they were around 3,600. I'm sure there are a lot of field workers, but a considerable amount would be in a headquarters building if they were to consolidate. They could have a very large structure built.

----------


## bchris02

> Not sure how old their wiki link is, bit I checked their employee count the other day and they were around 3,600. I'm sure there are a lot of field workers, but a considerable amount would be in a headquarters building if they were to consolidate. They could have a very large structure built.


A friend of mine said he heard they were working on a tower that would be taller than Devon. Not sure how reliable of a source he has but it's interesting.

----------


## maverickbroncho

Not sure if it would spur growth locally, but MidFirst will be announcing the acquisition of a company out of Atlanta later today... As they will operate as a subsidiary, hard to tell if this means jobs moving to OKC just yet.

----------


## ThomPaine

> To get this back on topic (and throw a little fuel on the fire), had dinner with a friend last night who works for OG&E in their procurement and contracting department. She did not know of any pending announcements, but had something of a "now that I think about it" moment later on. It seems that OG&E has not renewed their leases for quite a bit of their office space. Their staff has been complaining for years about how scattered they are. Also, their midstream subsidiary Enogex is growing like a weed and are already running tight on office space in Leadership Square. 
> 
> Just something to think about....


At one time, their HQ building was very modern and state of the art.   :Smile:   On a serious note, when you compete for high quality employees, it's tough to compete with the Devons and Chesapeakes of the world, and their older building doesn't help.

----------


## Jesseda

So from everything that has been rumored the past year or so of possible mystery towers

Devons second tower
contenintal tower
midfirst tower
OG&E tower
NEW relocation of myster HQ tower
Sandridge Tower (which I read that one was planned but was only 10-15 stories high)

so that gives us as least 5 building that are maybes? It seems like this mystery thing will be going on and on and collecting more possible companies rumors into the mix. 2012 was a possible might 1st, 2nd, 3rd quarter info release of a tower and now it seems like the same rumor recylcing itself for 2013 only difference is that more companies are added to the possible tower mix. Wonder if we will be doing the same thing in 2014 if nothing is announce this year

----------


## Thundercitizen

Yes.......[sigh].........we will.

----------


## metro

> So from everything that has been rumored the past year or so of possible mystery towers
> 
> Devons second tower
> contenintal tower
> midfirst tower
> OG&E tower
> NEW relocation of myster HQ tower
> Sandridge Tower (which I read that one was planned but was only 10-15 stories high)
> 
> so that gives us as least 5 building that are maybes? It seems like this mystery thing will be going on and on and collecting more possible companies rumors into the mix. 2012 was a possible might 1st, 2nd, 3rd quarter info release of a tower and now it seems like the same rumor recylcing itself for 2013 only difference is that more companies are added to the possible tower mix. Wonder if we will be doing the same thing in 2014 if nothing is announce this year



I'd count Sandridge out given their recent news in other business threads. We'll be lucky if they don't get sold.

----------


## dankrutka

> I'd count Sandridge out given their recent news in other business threads. We'll be lucky if they don't get sold.


Which, by the way, if Sandridge was sold, reolcated, went under, or downsized that could take 2 towers off the market as a possible tower could be scrapped and a company could move into the Sandridge Tower/campus.

----------


## zookeeper

> 41% of Oklahoma County voted for Obama so this county is actually reddish-purple.  If every liberal or liberal leaning moderate in Oklahoma County would have voted in 2012, the county maybe could have been turned blue.  Oklahoma voter turnout is pretty low since this state is pretty much guaranteed to the Republican candidate.


I'm sure the 2012 presidential election votes in Oklahoma County wouldn't be on the list for 95% of people looking to move to OKC. The idea that everyone in your demographic voted for Obama, or would have had they gone to the polls, is wrong. I know some to the left of Obama that were mad at him about drone hits and kill lists. Your comment here was off base in my opinion.

----------


## HangryHippo

Let's not turn this political.  Take the musings to the political forum, please.

----------


## zookeeper

> Let's not turn this political.  Take the musings to the political forum, please.


I agree completely. I felt his political shot deserved a response because it was wrong thinking relating to city growth.

----------


## bchris02

> I'm sure the 2012 presidential election votes in Oklahoma County wouldn't be on the list for 95% of people looking to move to OKC. The idea that everyone in your demographic voted for Obama, or would have had they gone to the polls, is wrong. I know some to the left of Obama that were mad at him about drone hits and kill lists. Your comment here was off base in my opinion.


I was simply stating that fact in response to a poster above who said some people think there isn't a single liberal in the 600k square miles of OKC. The fact is the county is more purple than a lot of people probably think. I agree with you that 95% of people looking to move to OKC aren't going to care what the election results were.

----------


## metro

Not to mention why does every place in the nation have to be "liberal" to be "progressive"?

----------


## Teo9969

> Not to mention why does every place in the nation have to be "liberal" to be "progressive"?


To clarify my original statement...It's not about shifting OKC's politics. I think we have a great balance in terms of who is actually leading the city.

I'm just saying that I think that demographic needs to "advertise" more to potential future residents. There is are plenty of people of the progressive/liberal persuasion in this city, but again, you would think the way many people talk, that the most liberal person in the city is Brad Henry. I get the sense that many people who firmly believe in their progressive/liberal politics feel like they don't belong here, and I think that has more to do with perception than reality.

----------


## Teo9969

> Not to mention why does every place in the nation have to be "liberal" to be "progressive"?


To clarify my original statement...It's not about shifting OKC's politics. I think we have a great balance in terms of who is actually leading the city.

I'm just saying that I think that demographic needs to "advertise" more to potential future residents. There are plenty of people of the progressive/liberal persuasion in this city, but again, you would think the way many people talk, that the most liberal person in the city is Brad Henry. I get the sense that many people who firmly believe in their progressive/liberal politics feel like they don't belong here, and I think that has more to do with perception than reality.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I think it'd be really cool to wake up one day and not get on okctalk at all because I'm tired of reading about rumors and speculation and walk into work to hear my boss say, "I bet your website you go to has been abuzz today with that new announcement."  To hear it from her first would be a breath of fresh air, lol.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

This is a thread for speculation too. So, yeeaaaah. I want news on a tower too though. :/

----------


## dankrutka

> Not to mention why does every place in the nation have to be "liberal" to be "progressive"?


They don't, but major cities often lean liberal because they're more accepting of diversity and change in many forms. Conservatives tend to be wary of change and diversity in general (not everyone). It's social issues that primarily result in urban areas leaning left.

----------


## bchris02

> To clarify my original statement...It's not about shifting OKC's politics. I think we have a great balance in terms of who is actually leading the city.
> 
> I'm just saying that I think that demographic needs to "advertise" more to potential future residents. There is are plenty of people of the progressive/liberal persuasion in this city, but again, you would think the way many people talk, that the most liberal person in the city is Brad Henry. I get the sense that many people who firmly believe in their progressive/liberal politics feel like they don't belong here, and I think that has more to do with perception than reality.


Completely agree.  America, like it or not, is becoming more politically segregated.  A lot of people, seemingly moreso on the liberal side of the spectrum but you also see it on the conservative side, place living around politically like-minded people very high on their priority list or at least being around people that will accept their views.  This is because politics and culture is becoming more and more merged.  Several people mentioned wanting more for the arts and music in OKC, but those things are generally associated with liberal politics.  It shouldn't have to be that way, but it is.  Simply look at the neighborhoods in this city and what I am talking about speaks for itself.  The most diverse, vibrant areas of OKC like midtown, Plaza, 23rd St, Paseo etc are also the most liberal.  122nd and Council on the other hand is very conservative and its culture reflects that.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Man, this thread is really making me want to check out the political forum.....NOOOOOOOOOOT!!!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Wow. I know. Is there anything that can't be made into politics these days? >_<

----------


## dankrutka

The discussion really isn't political. People aren't arguing politics (yet...), but discussing demographics. A very pertinent topic in urban and changing communities. Anyway... back on topic.

----------


## Just the facts

> They don't, but major cities often lean liberal because they're more accepting of diversity and change in many forms. Conservatives tend to be wary of change and diversity in general (not everyone). It's social issues that primarily result in urban areas leaning left.


Major cities lean left because of the 1949 Housing Act and the 1956 Federal Aid Highway Act.

----------


## dankrutka

> Major cities lean left because of the 1949 Housing Act and the 1956 Federal Aid Highway Act.


It is not that simple.

----------


## Just the facts

> It is not that simple.


Yes, it is just that simple.  We have allowed ourselves to be sifted and located by income courtesy of the Federal Housing Authority and the interstate and US highway system.  After 60 years America has just begun to undo that damage.  I am happy to say that it is finally catching on in OKC.

----------


## SoonerBoy18

*Sigh* Okay... ......... I think it will be best if we just rely on 4,5 and 9 about any new tower coming here.

----------


## 1972ford

I was told my Lego building will not due for the city so I must plan a k'nex tower that will be taller and more modern

----------


## dankrutka

> Yes, it is just that simple.  We have allowed ourselves to be sifted and located by income courtesy of the Federal Housing Authority and the interstate and US highway system.  After 60 years America has just begun to undo that damage.  I am happy to say that it is finally catching on in OKC.


Nevermind. Everything in our complex world fits within your simplistic explanations for everything. Wisdom does not come from being so sure of yourself.

----------


## Just the facts

Sounds good KilgoreTrout.  Let's get back to talking about things that don't exist.  :Smile:

----------


## MDot

> A friend of mine said he heard they were working on a tower that would be taller than Devon. Not sure how reliable of a source he has but it's interesting.


Just for reference, does your friend have any affiliation with OG&E? Sorry to be such a snoop, but it's relevant IMO.

----------


## G.Walker

http://www.levybeffort.com/Websites/...andout_OKC.pdf

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Only 'a new...'?  Come on Mark!

----------


## Pete

To add another name to the tower derby, in Steve's chat today someone said that Shell Oil is on the lips of a bunch of people in the commercial construction field.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

So is that possibly the rumored HQ that's suppose to be coming in?

----------


## SharkSandwich

> To add another name to the tower derby, in Steve's chat today someone said that Shell Oil is on the lips of a bunch of people in the commercial construction field.


That would be shocking, but great.

----------


## okc_bel_air

I have two family members that both work for Shell in Houston, one is an upper level analyist and the other is in the marketing arena. Both of them said Shell will never leave Houston for OKC.  Shell occupies over 1.2 million sqft of office space in 2 towers in Houston and have over 6,500 employeed in downtown houston alone.  They see no need to build and move employees to the midwest.

They have heard about the Cononco Phiilips rumors and would not be to surprised if they cam e back to Oklahoma.

----------


## metro

> I have two family members that both work for Shell in Houston, one is an upper level analyist and the other is in the marketing arena. Both of them said Shell will never leave Houston for OKC.  Shell occupies multiple buildings in Houston and have thousands employeed there.  They see no need to build and move employees to the midwest.
> 
> They have heard about the Cononco Phiilips rumors and would not be to surprised if they cam e back to Oklahoma.


1. OKC is not Midwest, it's Great Plains.
2. I too think it's unlikely, but maybe they're putting some sort of division office here if the rumor was true? That seems likely vs. moving HQ here.

----------


## Rover

> Major cities lean left because of the 1949 Housing Act and the 1956 Federal Aid Highway Act.


What a one dimensional view of the world and a complete and utter denial of the power of choice.

----------


## HangryHippo

> What a one dimensional view of the world and a complete and utter denial of the power of choice.


Rover, while I definitely tend to take whatever JTF says with a grain of salt, sometimes there's far less ability to choose than you like to proclaim in some of your posts.

----------


## Just the facts

What was the polititcal leaning of Detroit (or pick any city) prior to 1950?

List of mayors of Detroit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From 1900 to 1950 Detroit had 15 Republican Mayors and only 6 Democrats.  Then white people started moving to the suburbs using the Federal Housing Authority loans and the newley created interstate highways to get back into town for work.  By 1961 the transformation was complete.  The rest is history.

----------


## Rover

> Rover, while I definitely tend to take whatever JTF says with a grain of salt, sometimes there's far less ability to choose than you like to proclaim in some of your posts.


Just saying that claiming that the evolution of our demographics and urban geography evolved the way it did because it was forced on us by some government road agenda is just a one dimensional look at it.  Suburbs actually evolved because of railroads...yes railroads.  People CHOSE to prefer to get away from the expensive, crowded urban centers and found they could trade some commute time for what they perceived to be a higher standard of living for less.  

Some people romanticize all the facets of urban living.  For some, particularly those with money, the urban life can be full of exciting and convenient opportunities.  For many others it is much less glamerous.  For centuries, those that could afford it had their city residences and their country homes outside the city.  

The interstate and other highway systems were as much about moving goods as moving people.  The transportation infrastructure is in great part responsible for the great expansionist economy we have enjoyed for decades.  It wasn't an evil plot to kill cities or create a suburban hell.  

And, if some people think that urbanization eliminates social stratification....well they haven't spent much time in cities.  I can guarantee there are lines of social/economic differences in virtually all cities.  In a dense urban setting it is divided by certain streets, and in suburbs by developments.  

People with free-will will always make choices based on finances, opportunities, personal priorities, etc., and they will take advantage of the assets available to them.  If a dense urban area offers the best alternatives for lifestyle, economics, opportunities, etc., people will choose it.  But don't blame the roads if they don't.

----------


## hoya

> What was the polititcal leaning of Detroit (or pick any city) prior to 1950?
> 
> List of mayors of Detroit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> From 1900 to 1950 Detroit had 15 Republican Mayors and only 6 Democrats.  Then white people started moving to the suburbs using the Federal Housing Authority loans and the newley created interstate highways to get back into town for work.  By 1961 the transformation was complete.  The rest is history.


A lot of things have changed since the 1950s, including the Civil Rights Movement.  The parties today aren't even that similar to what they were back then.  You can't convince me that people's feelings about things like abortion and gay marriage are rooted in the foundation of the interstate highway system.

One of the biggest barriers to bringing in young educated people is the perception of OKC as a backwards place to be.  Part of that perception, for some people, is OKC's conservative political slant.  San Francisco has a similar problem, perceived as being too left wing for "normal" people.  However, I do not believe that the political aspect is going to be a substantial factor for most people when they decide where to move.  Obviously Bob the Atheist Pot-Smoking Hippy Who Hates Guns will probably not have OKC high on his list of destination cities.  But most people will consider a lot of other, less philosophical factors before they ever get to politics.

So what we need to do is fight against the perception of being backwards.  A prospering economy and the success of the Thunder help with that a lot.  But the biggest thing that will do that is time.  People who have visited OKC in the past and came away with a bad impression aren't going to be swayed by a handful of online top 10 lists.  Right now there's a negative perception of this city, which we are slowly moving to be a neutral perception of the city.  The biggest positive force for change, however, is a sense of civic pride that has started to develop.  Too often, Oklahoma Citians have been poor ambassadors for our city.  We have had a negative view of our home, and wasted no opportunities to cut it down.  Others see this and it affects their view of this city.  Now people are actually becoming proud of our town, and I think that will shine through as well.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled daydreams of tall buildings.

----------


## CaptDave

I think it is more unintended consequences that were facilitated by those policies Rover. I doubt many people really thought about the cost of extending infrastructure and the inherent inefficiency in doing so. Nothing evil or subversive going on - except for maybe the automobile manufacturers buying up and killing off urban rail systems, but I wouldn't say that was evil. Misguided is more like it; simply because short term perceived benefits were preferred overlonger term effects. 20/20 hindsight is nice.

Many people today are deciding they would rather get back the time spent commuting instead of some idyllic suburban life. Nothing wrong with either one, but one definitely has higher and different costs associated with it.

The highway system in OKC is overbuilt for the population we have. That enables fast commute times with little or no traffic. I favor maintaining what we have to a high level (and completing projects like the I44/235 interchange) but shifting transportation funds from highway construction to other forms of transportation over a period of several years.

The easy commute is an advantage for us in recruiting new businesses and enticing people to live here, but we should also recognize that most cities that are successful in luring young, educated professionals develop means of transportation other than the automobile and roads.

----------


## G.Walker

This is the only thread that I know of that is this long that is dedicated to a project that doesn't exist, wow.

----------


## jedicurt

I feel like we are in the Game Of Thrones Universe.... A Tower Is Coming....

----------


## progressiveboy

> 1. OKC is not Midwest, it's Great Plains.
> 2. I too think it's unlikely, but maybe they're putting some sort of division office here if the rumor was true? That seems likely vs. moving HQ here.


 Actually OKC is the considered in the Upper South, SW. Google clearly spells it out. Also in many circles considered a Southwestern City or maybe "Southern" Plains. Would be great for OKC if they could land a huge HQ, the city needs high incomes to support luxury dept stores and upscale stores.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> To add another name to the tower derby, in Steve's chat today someone said that Shell Oil is on the lips of a bunch of people in the commercial construction field.


That would make some sense based on their acquisitions up in Kansas. Shell picked up 1 million + acres in the Kansas Mississippian play and it appears that they making a strong push to get back into the domestic onshore exploration picture. OKC is the closest large city to their new position up there and is located somewhat in middle of many large domestic oil plays. Having said that I think it would more likely be an onshore regional office than their whole North American HQ, but who knows. It would be a significant developement either way.

----------


## metro

> Actually OKC is the considered in the Upper South, SW. Google clearly spells it out. Also in many circles considered a Southwestern City or maybe "Southern" Plains. Would be great for OKC if they could land a huge HQ, the city needs high incomes to support luxury dept stores and upscale stores.


I wasn't aware Google was the authority on history now. Oklahoma has historically been part of the great plains, although I could agree with Southwest. The poster said Midwest, in which OK is clearly not. Never read of an "Upper South" in the history books, bu then again, the "progressive" movement is rewriting history anyways.

----------


## MDot

Lets just say that Oklahoma is a mixture of different cultures and leave it at that. It doesn't matter that much anyway. Love both of you.

And fwiw, Oklahoma is more popularly known to be either a part of the South or SW.

----------


## ABryant

My favorite regional description of Oklahoma is "Diet Texas". Not sure who penned the term.

----------


## Dustin

> My favorite regional description of Oklahoma is "Diet Texas". Not sure who penned the term.


A narcissistic Texan.   :Wink:

----------


## Just the facts

I don't want to detract from this thread anymore than it has been so as a final follow-up to comments from Rover, Hoyasooner, CaptDave, and others - here you go.

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...tml#post613076

----------


## Rover

> I don't want to detract from this thread anymore than it has been so as a final follow-up to comments from Rover, Hoyasooner, CaptDave, and others - here you go.
> 
> http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...tml#post613076


This whole discussion needs moved to another, more appropriate thread.  While this video shows A perspective, the presenter presents the occurrences and gives his opinion on WHY it happened.  It fails to address all the reasons why people made and make the choices they do.  It is still simplistic in its view.  For instance, I think there are some flaws in such statements like where he states as fact that the real reason the Europeans defeated the native Americans and took the country because the Europeans became more healthy/resistant by sleeping with their pigs.  And his claim that oil will be $170-$500 a barrel within 5 years of whenever he made this presentation.

----------


## Bellaboo

Back to topic please -

I believe if we do see a large relocation, it will be oil and gas related. I remember Tom Ward making a statement that the Mississippi Lime formation in Northern Oklahoma would spur thousands of jobs for Oklahoma and Oklahoma City in particular. It wasn't long ago that Sandridge bought that parcel over on EKG for 1.9 million. What the intent is who knows, but I don't think it's just a speculative buy, since they already own land up and down Broadway.

Maybe ConocoPhillips or Shell is in play for some type of large office...?

----------


## bchris02

> A lot of things have changed since the 1950s, including the Civil Rights Movement.  The parties today aren't even that similar to what they were back then.  You can't convince me that people's feelings about things like abortion and gay marriage are rooted in the foundation of the interstate highway system.
> 
> One of the biggest barriers to bringing in young educated people is the perception of OKC as a backwards place to be.  Part of that perception, for some people, is OKC's conservative political slant.  San Francisco has a similar problem, perceived as being too left wing for "normal" people.  However, I do not believe that the political aspect is going to be a substantial factor for most people when they decide where to move.  Obviously Bob the Atheist Pot-Smoking Hippy Who Hates Guns will probably not have OKC high on his list of destination cities.  But most people will consider a lot of other, less philosophical factors before they ever get to politics.
> 
> So what we need to do is fight against the perception of being backwards.  A prospering economy and the success of the Thunder help with that a lot.  But the biggest thing that will do that is time.  People who have visited OKC in the past and came away with a bad impression aren't going to be swayed by a handful of online top 10 lists.  Right now there's a negative perception of this city, which we are slowly moving to be a neutral perception of the city.  The biggest positive force for change, however, is a sense of civic pride that has started to develop.  Too often, Oklahoma Citians have been poor ambassadors for our city.  We have had a negative view of our home, and wasted no opportunities to cut it down.  Others see this and it affects their view of this city.  Now people are actually becoming proud of our town, and I think that will shine through as well.
> 
> I now return you to your regularly scheduled daydreams of tall buildings.


Agree with this for the most part. Young professionals are usually very liberal especially on cultural issues like abortion and gay marriage. They are also a pretty political generation in comparison with Generation X. There is a perception among young, educated professionals that they don't belong here due to the extreme right wing culture. Sadly, there is some truth to that. I thought I was conservative prior to my move to OKC but in this city I am center-left. The conservative culture permeates aspects of life beyond politics. The quick-to-marriage syndrome is one example. This can be a lonely city for anyone educated and still single past age 22, especially if church isn't their thing. I think it's slowly starting to change as more young professionals are moving into OKC and fewer educated natives are leaving for DFW, but there is still a ways to go in my opinion.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Agree with this for the most part. Young professionals are usually very liberal especially on cultural issues like abortion and gay marriage. They are also a pretty political generation in comparison with Generation X. There is a perception among young, educated professionals that they don't belong here due to the extreme right wing culture. Sadly, there is some truth to that. I thought I was conservative prior to my move to OKC but in this city I am center-left. The conservative culture permeates aspects of life beyond politics. The quick-to-marriage syndrome is one example. This can be a lonely city for anyone educated and still single past age 22, especially if church isn't their thing. I think it's slowly starting to change as more young professionals are moving into OKC and fewer educated natives are leaving for DFW, but there is still a ways to go in my opinion.


Thats a pretty weird mystery tower. lol jk :P

----------


## edcrunk

> They don't, but major cities often lean liberal because they're more accepting of diversity and change in many forms. Conservatives tend to be wary of change and diversity in general (not everyone). It's social issues that primarily result in urban areas leaning left.


 I think it has more to do with it being easier to be anonymous and deviate from traditional morality in larger cities since people aren't all up in your business. Being extremely conservative, I invite change... I just don't believe that morality is relative. I know this has nothing to do with a mystery tower... sorry.

----------


## okcpulse

> Agree with this for the most part. Young professionals are usually very liberal especially on cultural issues like abortion and gay marriage. They are also a pretty political generation in comparison with Generation X. There is a perception among young, educated professionals that they don't belong here due to the extreme right wing culture. Sadly, there is some truth to that. I thought I was conservative prior to my move to OKC but in this city I am center-left. The conservative culture permeates aspects of life beyond politics. The quick-to-marriage syndrome is one example. This can be a lonely city for anyone educated and still single past age 22, especially if church isn't their thing. I think it's slowly starting to change as more young professionals are moving into OKC and fewer educated natives are leaving for DFW, but there is still a ways to go in my opinion.


I was educated and single in OKC past the age of 22 and I wasn't lonely.  AND church wasn't my thing.  This was 13 years ago.  Maybe I just got lucky.

Not sure why all of this correlates to a speculative tower other than the prospect of young professionals flocking to OKC in a company relocation.  I believe OKC is changing more quickly than it is given credit.  

I can also safely say that I am starting to here a lot of talk in my field regarding what is happening in Oklahoma City.  I think a lot of you are underestimating the city's near future without realizing it.  You will be quite surprised.

----------


## skanaly

I'd like to hear what people say about this, how many towers 300 ft and over do you think will be built by the year 2023? A decade.

----------


## ljbab728

My guess is 3 - 5 tops.

----------


## lasomeday

> My guess is 3 - 5 tops.


7, I think once we get a few more commercial skyscrapers, residential skyscrapers will start going up like everywhere else.

----------


## bchris02

> 7, I think once we get a few more commercial skyscrapers, residential skyscrapers will start going up like everywhere else.


I am surprised they haven't already.  Even Little Rock has had pretty substantial mid-rise residential development.

----------


## skanaly

I'm just thinking all the jobs downtown, I think in the next 10 years there will be more residential built then commercial

----------


## ljbab728

> I am surprised they haven't already.  Even Little Rock has had pretty substantial mid-rise residential development.


The original question was about buildings that were 300 feet or higher.  Little Rock has six of those and none are residential.

----------


## bchris02

> The original question was about buildings that were 300 feet or higher.  Little Rock has six of those and none are residential.


River Market Tower and 300 Third come close, which is impressive for a city that small.  Even projects on that scale in downtown OKC would be welcome, though I would prefer something more like this.

The VUE Charlotte on 5th | Luxury High-Rise Apartments in Uptown Charlotte, North Carolina

----------


## catch22

> River Market Tower and 300 Third come close, which is impressive for a city that small.  Even projects on that scale in downtown OKC would be welcome, though I would prefer something more like this.
> 
> The VUE Charlotte on 5th | Luxury High-Rise Apartments in Uptown Charlotte, North Carolina


I think we are getting close to seeing some projects like those come online. Just a hunch, no inside info.

----------


## ljbab728

> River Market Tower and 300 Third come close, which is impressive for a city that small.  Even projects on that scale in downtown OKC would be welcome, though I would prefer something more like this.
> 
> The VUE Charlotte on 5th | Luxury High-Rise Apartments in Uptown Charlotte, North Carolina


300 Third is 218 feet, River Market is close at 285 feet.  Regency is OKC is 288 feet.

----------


## hoya

Every building that goes up in the downtown area contributes to accelerated growth.  With places like the Edge, and the renovated boutique hotels, we'll have hundreds more people downtown than we did before.  That means more restaurants that are open later, it means the appearance of convenience stores, it means more amenities for people in the area.

It also means fewer open plots of land.  Downtown OKC has large sections of grassy field or old torn up pavement scattered throughout.  I think hopes for downtown residential skyscrapers will remain vain hopes until we have more density.  As happy as I am with the developments in Deep Deuce and Midtown, these are just the low-hanging fruit.  No one is going to build a residential high-rise until the downtown housing market is better established and the low-hanging fruit is gone.  These developments we're seeing right now are necessary, they are the precursors to the 25 story residential towers we'd all love to see.

My completely uneducated, uninformed _guess_ is that Deep Deuce and Midtown will need to fill up, and stay filled up for 5 years or more, before investors start to consider residential towers.  Perhaps a few floors of housing on top of the new parking garage on Main will help ease investor fears.  But we're talking about a type of housing that hasn't been proven yet in this market.  It works in other markets, but it hasn't been seen here yet.  If I'm an investor, and I know for a fact that I'm going to make money on something like the Edge or LEVEL, versus taking a gamble on a high-rise, I'm going with the sure thing.  No one is going to build something like The VUE above, until they are convinced they will make money.

I'd say that Deep Deuce and Midtown will be full 5 years from now.  Automobile Alley will be fully developed.  Core to Shore will still be in planning stages and no one will be building there yet.  The new OG&E tower will be going up.  A new Devon tower will be going up.  A Continental Resources tower will be going up.  And any new company that has moved to OKC will at least be filling up these other companies' older spaces.  It's quite realistic we'll be seeing 3 new towers downtown in that time.  Once all this has taken place, barring an oil crash or any economic disasters, then I think the city will be ready for high-rise residential.  Maybe they start building one of these in 10 years, but I don't think it's realistic to expect one sooner than that.

Unless, of course, Devon decides to build one just on a whim or something, some combination more office space/residential.

----------


## metro

I get your point, but one could argue that it HAS been proven. The Classen, 360 and Lakeshore Tower have been around 5 years or more and have been very successful. The Tiffany is supposively going that route as well.

----------


## catch22

Also, I think urban development is exponential. Once you get the ball rolling, it gets larger and faster. Saying Deep Deuce is 5 years from being full, I think is underestimating. That ball is quickly getting larger and faster. 2-3 more large developments (other than the few that are planned), and Deep Deuce will be full.

----------


## Teo9969

I would think if Continental builds a new office tower that Residential high-rise is going to happen. It seems to me that having a Downtown high-rise that will be largely used by DVN, CLR, SD (hopefully), OGE, and all the other downtown businesses makes a good case for at least one residential high rise coming soon.

Museum Tower in Dallas is 42 stories @ 560 ft. It has 125 Condos
The Vue in Charlotte is 50 stories @ 600 ft. It has 409 Units
The Austonian in Austin is 56 stories @ 683 ft. It has 188 Units

I think a 400 to 600 foot building w/ 200 to 275 units would be perfectly feasible and a realistically good investment. In the OKC market I think it would need to be both lease units and condos. Say it was a 40 stories @ 480ft, then I think it's realistic to see 200 units, ~50 of which are condos and 150 of which start out as lease units. Maybe even a mixed-use, part hotel/part residential high rise could be built.

Hey...and the perfect site is right there on the Stage Center site next to whatever other tower is going up there.

----------


## hoya

> Also, I think urban development is exponential. Once you get the ball rolling, it gets larger and faster. Saying Deep Deuce is 5 years from being full, I think is underestimating. That ball is quickly getting larger and faster. 2-3 more large developments (other than the few that are planned), and Deep Deuce will be full.


I'm trying to be conservative in my estimates.  When I say DD being full, I mean The Hill will be completed, the Brownstones finished out, any reasonable empty space will be filled.  It will be at the point where we will have to tear something down to build something else.  I think it might take a little longer than 5 years for all that to take place.  You'd have to be in a position where the developers are losing money by _not_ building.

Let me put it this way, I will be surprised if a residential tower is announced within the next two or three years.  I will be equally surprised if one is _not_ announced within 10.  We have ample space for new towers downtown.  There are a lot of crappy little one story buildings and surface parking lots scattered around that could be replaced.  As I walk around downtown, I see lots of places where I say "we could put something there, or there, or there..."  That's why high rises developed in the first place, because it was cheaper to go up rather than out.  Right now, it's still cheaper in downtown OKC to go out.  It's cheaper to build a 3, 4, or 5 story apartment complex like Legacy or LEVEL than build something like the Regency.  As those empty spaces fill, I think we become more and more likely to get developments that go up.

Eventually the Cox Center will be torn down, and that's a huge amount of empty space that we could fill.  You could put 3 or 4 towers in that space and have room left over.  That's probably 15+ years down the road, however.  I'd like to see us get more infill and take up a lot of the empty spaces we have before we started on that.

Edit:  Basically everything on Hudson north of the Museum of Art until you get to the bus station could be replaced by new towers quite easily.  There might be two or three buildings worth saving, not because of any architectural merit, but just because they are clean and functional little office buildings.  The rest of it is junk or surface parking.  I think we could squeeze in another 20 midrise to high-rise buildings without tearing down much of anything.  And that's part of why it's going to take some time before a high-rise residential building becomes profitable.

----------


## BoulderSooner

cox center future site of the new downtown arena

----------


## skanaly

> cox center future site of the new downtown arena


I always saw the CCC a great site for more business and commercial towers. If I understood correctly, the Cox Convention Center would be a good site for a new arena? I don't see why we would build a new arena when we have a perfectly good functioning one across the street.

On another subject, with the core to shore and central park developement, I think they play a big role in expanding OKC's skyline, weather people start building
residential, commerical, or corporate. Looking at the Central park site, I cannot but think of all the potential the sites east and west to it have. 5-6 story apartment complexes all along the east side I think would be ideal for that area. On the west, more residential of course, but it would make an enourmous impact if they were 200-300 ft tall.

----------


## plmccordj

I am doubtful that the Cox center will be torn down in the next 30 years.

----------


## okctalkaccount

There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I always saw the CCC a great site for more business and commercial towers. If I understood correctly, the Cox Convention Center would be a good site for a new arena? I don't see why we would build a new arena when we have a perfectly good functioning one across the street.
> 
> On another subject, with the core to shore and central park developement, I think they play a big role in expanding OKC's skyline, weather people start building
> residential, commerical, or corporate. Looking at the Central park site, I cannot but think of all the potential the sites east and west to it have. 5-6 story apartment complexes all along the east side I think would be ideal for that area. On the west, more residential of course, but it would make an enourmous impact if they were 200-300 ft tall.


Okc will need a New arena in 2030

----------


## skanaly

> I am doubtful that the Cox center will be torn down in the next 30 years.


But if it was, would we actually need a whole new arena, I do think it will be a bit out-dated. 




> Okc will need a New arena in 2030


But that's pretty soon when you think about it. Maybe 2050

----------


## Just the facts

Cox will be torn down 6 months after the new convention center opens.  You can take that to the bank.

We might get a new mid/high rise residential tower in the next 12 to 18 months but once streetcar rail start getting put in the ground you are going to be shocked how much residential construction takes off.  They won't be able to build it fast enough.

----------


## plmccordj

Just the facts, I could see what you mean about the Cox center if all there was in there was convention space but there is an arena that gets used frequently. It is my understanding that the new convention center will not have an arena.  If that is true, then we need the Cox arena until another one is built.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

SMG manages both Cox and Chesapeake arenas.  Any chance they can intertwine all of the current events that go on?  Other than the Barons, it's not like Sesame Street and cheer competitions can't be moved to the State Fair arena.  Also, this is why parking garages need to be built between now and whenever the new convention center gets built and this site is torn down.  How many spaces are there underneath the Cox Center?

----------


## Pete

> There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.


I still think they are going to buy the Stage Center site and build a new HQ tower.

But of course, they have a short-term problem as well as best case, a new building is a 2-3 year project.

They will probably end up like Devon was before they built:  Scattered all over downtown in various buildings.

----------


## Just the facts

> Just the facts, I could see what you mean about the Cox center if all there was in there was convention space but there is an arena that gets used frequently. It is my understanding that the new convention center will not have an arena.  If that is true, then we need the Cox arena until another one is built.


The Peake can handle everything OKC is capable of throwing at it.

----------


## plmccordj

There is no such place as the Peake. You must be talking to Bob Barry Jr.

----------


## Snowman

> There is no such place as the Peake. You must be talking to Bob Barry Jr.


The Peake is at least a commonly used nickname, it is Barry Trammel who tends to make up his own nicknames that no one else will ever use.

----------


## Bellaboo

> The Peake is at least a commonly used nickname,* it is Barry Trammel who tends to make up his own nicknames that no one else will ever use*.


Like the 'Boomers', I hate that when he throws that out there.......

----------


## Bellaboo

> There is a big internal meeting this week at *CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already*, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.


This could be Tower # 1.  stay tuned....

----------


## Teo9969

> I still think they are going to buy the Stage Center site and build a new HQ tower.
> 
> But of course, they have a short-term problem as well as best case, I new building is a 2-3 year project.
> 
> They will probably end up like Devon was before they built: * Scattered all over downtown in various buildings.*


Would it be in FNC best or worst interest if CLR occupied space in there? Would it give Yash enough money to just hold on but not make upgrades or would it be the income needed to make necessary improvements?

----------


## okcfollower

I think chase tower still had some space open. I bet that is where continental has their first overflow.

----------


## 1972ford

They may overflow into the cheasapeake campus lol

----------


## Rover

With the Chesapeake situation so fluid, if there is an energy company looking towards OKC for relocation the Chesapeake campus could in fact become an attractive option vs building a new tower.  They could acquire a company and a hq at the same time.  I could see this affecting the prospects of a new tower downtown ala OPUBCO sale and AF.

----------


## Urbanized

The worst nightmare I can imagine is an acquisition of CHK (I know the board is discounting this possibility, but I wouldn't rule it out). That campus would put such a huge amount of class A space on the market that it would be years before the city could absorb it. The ripple effect would without question be very detrimental to the _downtown_ market, since companies who might have leased or built downtown might be able to get into that place on the cheap. We ALL have to hold our breath and hope that the new board and new CEO charts a course that stabilizes that company and keeps them rooted firmly where they are now.

----------


## bchris02

Even if Chesapeake was to be bought out its doubtful they would abandon their presence in OKC at least in the short run. The absolute worst case scenario would be a Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

----------


## Bellaboo

> There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.


Anyone have any info on this ???

----------


## Just the facts

One of the biggest problems with the Chesapeake campus is that it is not easily subdivided to multiple tenants.  While companies have gotten very good at 'right-sizing' their employees, some are very poor at creating a scalable physical workplace.  I always think back to the Cisco Campus with large non-productive buildings just sitting there empty because they will never have the employee count they once had and no company wants to lease a building that looks exactly like the other 20 buildings right next to it.  At least with an offer tower you can lease un-used floors, and even subdivide individual floors.

----------


## LakeEffect

> One of the biggest problems with the Chesapeake campus is that it is not easily subdivided to multiple tenants.  While companies have gotten very good at 'right-sizing' their employees, some are very poor at creating a scalable physical workplace.  I always think back to the Cisco Campus with large non-productive buildings just sitting there empty because they will never have the employee count they once had and no company wants to lease a building that looks exactly like the other 20 buildings right next to it.  At least with an offer tower you can lease un-used floors, and even subdivide individual floors.


Really? I don't think that would be true at CHK-land. The entire structure could be changed and buildings separately leased if necessary. With Classen Curve adjacent, I think the area could easily develop into a walkable community (by easily, I mean with a little extra investment in a few items). The visual impact of the CHK buildings isn't so odd that no one would want to lease them.

----------


## Bellaboo

> There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.


Anyone know what this was about last week ?

----------


## Praedura

While we're waiting around for some magical tower announcement...... I'll post a random pic of NYC:



Free lollipop to anyone who can tell me exactly how many buildings are in that shot.

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## OKCisOK4me

39?

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## skanaly

6031, check it, and mail me my lollipop porfavor

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## stlokc

I had forgotten the Jersey City/Hoboken skyline was that impressive in its own right.

----------


## ChaseDweller

Over 9,000!

----------


## ThomPaine

> 42.  Of course it is 42.


Ah!  So that was the question...

----------


## Bellaboo

5,212.

----------


## zookeeper

> I had forgotten the Jersey City/Hoboken skyline was that impressive in its own right.


I agree. Have you been to Hoboken recently? Amazing little city and quite the trendy place to live these days in metropolitan New York City. It's a very expensive place to live but it's the place I'd like to be if I weren't here in OKC. The Hoboken Terminal is a sight to behold, Grand Central couldn't have been busier in its heyday. To me, it's the little city that could and has a certain quaintness about it that takes me back in time and is there a city with a better view? From the shores across the river, Manhattan just looks stunning.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

"Oh cool, maybe there's an relevant update on the Mystery Tower thread..." 

New York...

----------


## stlokc

I have spent time in Hoboken. A good friend lived in Greenwich Village and she moved across the river because it's a little cheaper. She's a few blocks from the ferry, 5 minutes by train to lower Manhattan. I was very, very impressed with Hoboken. Great place!

OK...realize this was off topic, but really, this whole thread has been off the rails for so long that I don't feel that bad  :Smile:

----------


## Rover

Home of Frank Sinatra so it has to be cool.

----------


## metro

> "Oh cool, maybe there's an relevant update on the Mystery Tower thread..." 
> 
> New York...


There has never been a relevant post in this thread

----------


## Jesseda

> There has never been a relevant post in this thread


You mean to tell me people actually believed that there was a new tower in the works???? Its been what almost two years since the start of the mystery tower thread.( if it really was in the works at the starting of this thread then ground should have been broken or at least an announcement) LOL of course a tower will be built in the future, my prediction is 2018 give or take a few years  :Smile:  . this thread will probably be still going on, then a bunch of people would be like " oh I told you so, or you heard it here first that there was plans" lol

----------


## HangryHippo

Yeah, this tower thing has become a joke.  Let's close this up and have one less thread to check.

----------


## G.Walker

> Yeah, this tower thing has become a joke.  Let's close this up and have one less thread to check.


+1

----------


## Teo9969

> You mean to tell me people actually believed that there was a new tower in the works???? *Its been what almost two years since the start of the mystery tower thread.*( if it really was in the works at the starting of this thread then ground should have been broken or at least an announcement) LOL of course a tower will be built in the future, my prediction is 2018 give or take a few years  . this thread will probably be still going on, then a bunch of people would be like " oh I told you so, or you heard it here first that there was plans" lol


It has been less than a year.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Hasn't Steve in his online chat mentioned that there are processes in the works right now but he just can't comment on them or do an article about them quite yet?  How many years do you think the process took to wrap up the site for the Devon Tower?  Truth be told, this thread was started 363 days ago...not 2 years ago.  No time has gone by at all.

post edit:

I hate to do this, but this thread needs to get back on track for speculation.  In the 'Project Map' tab, on this site

it shows 'Future Sandridge Project'.

What I would like to speculate on is that it will not be a new tower for their future growth but that they're trying to hold on to this site to sell it to a residential developer.  Think about how good of a spot this would be for a mid rise residential tower!  You're more key to everything and anything in terms of being in the middle of it all.  

Obviously if the streetcar is built down Broadway, this will be a big sell since it will be along the route.

IDK, but I got goosebumps thinking of a residential tower going in here and it would just bridge the gap even more between downtown and all the residential building going on in Maywood Park/Deep Deuce.

----------


## tillyato

> Hasn't Steve in his online chat mentioned that there are processes in the works right now but he just can't comment on them or do an article about them quite yet?


This is what Steve said in his Feb. 1 chat:

OklahomaNick  - 
10:48 a.m. How much of the mystery tower is speculation vs. actual inquiry work being done to find a site? 
Steve Lackmeyer -  
10:49 a.m. Proposals, land purchase bids, etc. are taking place. 

Seems like the Mystery Tower is more than pure speculation, but not going as fast as many would want...

----------


## HangryHippo

> Hasn't Steve in his online chat mentioned that there are processes in the works right now but he just can't comment on them or do an article about them quite yet?  How many years do you think the process took to wrap up the site for the Devon Tower?  Truth be told, this thread was started 363 days ago...not 2 years ago.  No time has gone by at all.
> 
> post edit:
> 
> I hate to do this, but this thread needs to get back on track for speculation.  In the 'Project Map' tab, on this site
> 
> it shows 'Future Sandridge Project'.
> 
> What I would like to speculate on is that it will not be a new tower for their future growth but that they're trying to hold on to this site to sell it to a residential developer.  Think about how good of a spot this would be for a mid rise residential tower!  You're more key to everything and anything in terms of being in the middle of it all.  
> ...


I love the idea of a residential tower going here.  Doubt it happens.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I love the idea of a residential tower going here.  *Doubt it happens*.


That was your evil post since it was #666.  Be gone evil spirit!!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

So whats the word? Now none thinks we will get a new tower anytime soon? What happened at that meeting the other week?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Wasn't there talk about "fixing" EK Gaylord and 3rd St.?

----------


## DowntownMan

I'm still thinking we hear something soon. Didn't continental make their announcement to move around this time of the year to their employees?? Think we could see a similar type meeting soon if they need more space? I do believe they are probably getting full as they seem to be hiring a lot I think....wishful thinking I guess. We need to just keep posting what we hear from people with connections and hope we see something develop publicly soon!

----------


## G.Walker

> I'm still thinking we hear something soon. Didn't continental make their announcement to move around this time of the year to their employees?? Think we could see a similar type meeting soon if they need more space? I do believe they are probably getting full as they seem to be hiring a lot I think....wishful thinking I guess. We need to just keep posting what we hear from people with connections and hope we see something develop publicly soon!


I heard Devon was building a spec tower...which does make sense if you really think about...

----------


## DowntownMan

> I heard Devon was building a spec tower...which does make sense if you really think about...


A spec tower would be a good way to have vendors housed close by...

----------


## ljbab728

> Yeah, this tower thing has become a joke.  Let's close this up and have one less thread to check.


Is someone forcing you to check this thread?  LOL

----------


## HangryHippo

> Is someone forcing you to check this thread?  LOL


Haha, no.  It's just a compulsive behavior.  I see that bold thread title and I just have to click!

----------


## G.Walker

During last Friday's chat with Steve, he mentioned him and Brianna Bailey were working on a special project that we should see in a couple weeks.

_"I've been taking some leave time to deal with some personal matters the past couple weeks. Brianna Bailey just started with the paper a couple of weeks ago. We're working on a special project that you should see in the next week or two. In the meantime, the energy team has been filling up the section with incredible coverage on the departure of Aubrey McClendon as CEO of Chesapeake Energy."_

Not saying this has do with office tower, but there is the possibility, but evidently its something big.

----------


## metro

Or it could just be a special section about the OPUBCO move?

----------


## dankrutka

I love how any vague reference gets posted here. 

"Hey, man, I need to talk to you later..." 

*Runs to computer to post comment to the mystery tower thread because he might be talking about a mystery tower...*

----------


## skanaly

Here's another question, I wonder if it will be unanimous. Rather have density with 5-6 more low rises? ( 150-280ft ) Or 1-2 more highrises? ( 400-780ft )


Easy visual, but the pics are kinda small

----------


## OKCisOK4me

#3 and 4

----------


## zookeeper

Just look at the off topic posts in this thread as intermission as we wait for more word. Reading through this thread, it's derailed many times when there wasn't any real news, but a lot of it has been interesting.

----------


## Bellaboo

The title of this thread suggest that anything goes, 'Speculation, News and Ideas'. 

Sooner or later, something with substance will surface on this thread.

----------


## Just the facts

> Here's another question, I wonder if it will be unanimous. Rather have density with 5-6 more low rises? ( 150-280ft ) Or 1-2 more highrises? ( 400-780ft )


I would be happy if the tallest building downtown was 10 stories.  The most important part of the building is where it meets the ground.  Height should only be used to define the space around it which most architects and city planners put at a ratio of between 1:1 and 1:2, meaning a street 40 feet wide feels most comfortable to pedestrians if the buildings are between 20 and 40 feet tall (2 to 4 stories).

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Time to break the boredom:




> Comment From Brent  
> Steve, you and your downtown coverage/blog/chats seem to be some of the most popular coverage for the Oklahoman. Are there any plans for you to get some more help to cover developments and ongoing construction, etc.? Especially with you being one person and with everything going on, it would appear to be a good idea to give the people more of what they want.
> 
> 10:44
> Steve Lackmeyer: No. Normally I'm pretty much able to stay on top of it all. Again, forgive me for lapses the past few weeks. I can tell you I've been involved in some serious discussions involving the "mystery tower" as it is referred to by some, and I am tantalizingly close to being able to expand my reporting on the topic.

----------


## G.Walker

10:16	
Comment From Paul T.  
With the Class A office market being so tight downtown, why hasn't any developers stepped up to develop speculative office buildings?

10:20	
Steve Lackmeyer: 
I'm going to go on memory here, so forgive me if I end up a bit off. But to build a modern Class A office building downtown, it's going to cost up to $325 a square foot. At best, this market will support $18 a square foot for rent - maybe $20 if someone really pushes it. Go to a bank, try to get financing for a speculative office building with no guaranteed tenants and those numbers. The project with those numbers just doesn't cash flow and it's seen as a big risk by lenders. *But ... even with all that said ... I am still tracking a new downtown tower. I am not seeing or hearing anything that discourages me from the notion that we are about o see a major expansion in Class A space*

----------


## Pete

I suspect both Continental and OG&E are getting close to announcing something.

We know the Stage Center foundation has been accepting bids on their property and we are pretty darn sure Continental is in the running.  From everything I've heard, they will prevail; I would bet there is already a hand-shake agreement.  However, I doubt anyone wants to make an announcement until there are more specifics, and I"m sure it's taking time for CLR to put together their general plan.  In other words, I don't think Stage Center or CLR want anything to come out until they can make a simultaneous announcement, because it will have to involve scraping the existing structure which will be controversial.

I also know that OG&E has employed a professional real estate firm to scout locations for a new building.  I became aware of that almost a year ago, so they would have to be pretty far along in their plans.  But of course, they also don't want to make any sort of announcement until all their ducks are in a row.

Beyond that, there are lots of possibilities but the actions of those two companies are for real, it's just that there are lots of little steps (and possible pitfalls) before either can announce a big building project.

----------


## Praedura

If what you say is true Pete (and I hope that it is), then I see three towers in our near future, because it seems inevitable that Devon will build another one, presumably in the Preftakes area.

----------


## BDP

> I would be happy if the tallest building downtown was 10 stories.  The most important part of the building is where it meets the ground.  Height should only be used to define the space around it which most architects and city planners put at a ratio of between 1:1 and 1:2, meaning a street 40 feet wide feels most comfortable to pedestrians if the buildings are between 20 and 40 feet tall (2 to 4 stories).


I agree. Certainly tall structures are needed in thriving business districts, but height alone does not equate to a good urban experience. Most of the best neighborhoods in truly urban cities are not the ones with the skyscrapers.

----------


## Bellaboo

And some of you folks wanted to lock down and close this thread up.....It's just now getting interesting, because it's getting ready to happen.

----------


## metro

and as soon as something is announced it will have it's own thread...........

----------


## catch22

I think everyone just needs to be patient. A $700 million dollar office tower project will take a lot longer to coordinate and get organized than a $30 million dollar hotel project. Just need to keep it in perspective, with that large amount of money, they want to be sure they have everything secured before they go public. If they came out publicly and announced they were building a tower before they had anything secured, land prices all over the CBD would soar. 

They are going to find the piece of land they really want, organize a payment offer, and then directly approach that buyer (possibly even under a different name or LLC) with that offer and secure their land. If they don't keep it on the down low, every vacant parcel would be on the market for 10x what they were asking before. They also need to secure a contractor, architect, etc. Again -- you don't want your plans out there publicly for this. Don't forget about the bank and their finance and legal departments. Even if they can pay cash, they still need to communicate with finance or the bank to work out plans for paying cash for it. Much more complicated than literally writing a check for the grand total and having a tower over night. 

These are all the same things every project goes through, and things that need to be taken care of in private instead of out in the open. 

And if the deal falls through or they change their mind -- guess what, you don't have to make an announcement saying so. No announcement is needed at all.

----------


## G.Walker

I am going go out on a limb and say we will have an official announcement by March 31, 2013.

----------


## Praedura

> I think everyone just needs to be patient. A $700 million dollar office tower project will take a lot longer to coordinate.....


Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah... where's my tower announcement!

Just kidding.  :Wink: 

Of course, you're right. That's a very sober assessment of the situation. I understand.

And yes, I'll try to be patient. Don't have any choice, do I? I am being forced to be patient against my will!
 :Smile:

----------


## Steve

I think that limb might hold up...

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I think that limb might hold up...


tease tease tease  .... lol

----------


## dmoor82

I can't wait to see a lot more cranes in dt OKC!!!

----------


## HangryHippo

> I think that limb might hold up...


Aw hell, Steve.  Why'd you do that to us?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I am going go out on a limb and say we will have an official announcement by March 31, 2013.


I'm going to go with my sister's birthday, April 22nd.

----------


## skanaly

> I am going go out on a limb and say we will have an official announcement by March 31, 2013.


You are now being held accountable for anything that comes after that....lol

----------


## MikeLucky

> I am going go out on a limb and say we will have an official announcement by March 31, 2013.





> I think that limb might hold up...





> tease tease tease  .... lol





> Aw hell, Steve.  Why'd you do that to us?


Lol... that is awesome.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> You are now being held accountable for anything that comes after that....lol


I'll be accountable for anything after 4/22 as well.

----------


## MDot

Go figure. The day I don't have time to check OKCTalk or Steve's blog is the day all this tower talk comes about. Makes me excited!

----------


## bchris02

I think a 2700 feet Burj Oklahoma should be built.  It would be a huge tourist attraction and would bring a ton of people to Oklahoma that would otherwise never come.  There could be an entire city in a building.  Imagine the possibilities! Plus it would be a one of its kind in the United States (the other one being in Dubai).

----------


## Dustin

> I think a 2700 feet Burj Oklahoma should be built.  It would be a huge tourist attraction and would bring a ton of people to Oklahoma that would otherwise never come.  There could be an entire city in a building.  Imagine the possibilities! Plus it would be a one of its kind in the United States (the other one being in Dubai).

----------


## Plutonic Panda

We could build a tower that goes to the moon. A moon tower. Anyone else know where a moon tower is? I do! Here, in Downtown OKC in about 5 years.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Without nanotechnology, the base of a moon tower would have to be 620 sq miles wide.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Yeah, I figured the base would have to be pretty massive and then you have the orbiting issues. Maaan...

----------


## ljbab728

> I agree. Certainly tall structures are needed in thriving business districts, but height alone does not equate to a good urban experience. Most of the best neighborhoods in truly urban cities are not the ones with the skyscrapers.


Of course, I would consider a neighborhood and an office district to be two different things and OKC certainly could use both.

----------


## ljbab728

> Aw hell, Steve.  Why'd you do that to us?


Because we love it.  LOL

----------


## dankrutka

> I think a 2700 feet Burj Oklahoma should be built.  It would be a huge tourist attraction and would bring a ton of people to Oklahoma that would otherwise never come.  There could be an entire city in a building.  Imagine the possibilities! Plus it would be a one of its kind in the United States (the other one being in Dubai).


Can't... tell... if... kidding.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> *Which happens to be the size of OKC*.  Hmmmmm....maybe there is something to this theory after all.


IDK if it'd really have to be that big, but that's the only reason I mentioned it  :Tongue:

----------


## bchris02

> Can't... tell... if... kidding.


Yeah was joking.

----------


## Bellaboo

Come Thursday, I'll be out of the country for 10 days. The way my luck is, it'll probably be announced during that time span. So be it.

----------


## ljbab728

> Come Thursday, I'll be out of the country for 10 days. The way my luck is, it'll probably be announced during that time span. So be it.


If that's what it takes to get an announcement, so long.  LOL

----------


## bchris02

How long was the speculation about the Devon tower before it was actually announced?  Not just random speculation (that has probably been going on since the completion of the Chase tower) but concrete evidence something would soon be built yet no announcement?

----------


## Teo9969

> How long was the speculation about the Devon tower before it was actually announced?  Not just random speculation (that has probably been going on since the completion of the Chase tower) but concrete evidence something would soon be built yet no announcement?


I think I remember hearing that OKC Talk started talking about what eventually turned out to be the Devon Tower about a year before the initial announcement. We're just a few days past the start of this thread (although talk of a mystery tower surfaced shortly before this thread).

I'd think this forum is even more well connected than in 2007 when rumors RE: Devon first started floating. So it would make sense that the rumor mill would last longer, even on a project smaller than Devon Tower (which I think we all expect to see). 

I just hope we're not getting our hopes up for something on the same scale as Devon: in height, money, or quality.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I don't expect anything better than Devon.

----------


## Dustin

> I don't expect anything better than Devon.


I don't think anyone does.  I, for one, am just excited for a denser skyline.

----------


## Spartan

> Without nanotechnology, the base of a moon tower would have to be 620 sq miles wide.


Good. We have just enough room, especially since we're so keen to demo anything for a new tower!

----------


## tillyato

Well, Steve seems to think the Mystery Tower is really moving along behind the scenes. From today's chat:

Comment From Eugene: 
what happened to all the buzz about new skyscrapers? Why no new announcements by now?  

Steve Lackmeyer: Real estate transactions take time. And thats exactly what is happening right now. This is not speculation, this is not a guess; I am telling you, a complicated real estate transaction is underway, and when the deal is done, that is when the involved parties will be ready to discuss what is planned.

 :Big Grin:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

^^^^arghhhh, I so want to LIKE that post!^^^^

----------


## Praedura

> ....I am telling you, a complicated real estate transaction is underway, and when the deal is done, that is when the involved parties will be ready to discuss what is planned.


A new downtown McDonalds? Cool!!!

just kidding

----------


## Just the facts

> A new downtown McDonalds? Cool!!!
> 
> just kidding


If it looks like this - bring it on.

----------


## jedicurt

> If it looks like this - bring it on.


Like +1

----------


## Pete

I think we are getting very close to an announcement by Continental and/or OG&E.

----------


## Praedura

> I think we are getting very close to an announcement by Continental and/or OG&E.


Oh no, don't do that to me!

----------


## jedicurt

> I think we are getting very close to an announcement by Continental and/or OG&E.


my bet is on Continental... i don't know anything about OG&E's plans... but i keep hearing a lot from the same people who were telling me a few months ago to be paying attention in the 2nd quarter of 2013... so i'm thinking possibly an end of March or first part of April announcement

----------


## G.Walker

I think we are to...I am still holding firm that we will have an announcement by March 31st, 2013. Hopefully it won't be a soft announcement...like just them saying 'we are building a tower', lol. It would be nice to have a hard announcement with details of the project, like what architecture firm they will use, renderings, and projected start dates etc...

----------


## HangryHippo

Pete, how likely is it that we see new towers from both Continental and OG&E?  Or do you see it happening where Continental builds something new and OG&E takes the tower that Continental is currently in?  Or some other way?

----------


## Just the facts

> It would be nice to have a hard announcement with details of the project, like what architecture firm they will use, renderings, and projected start dates etc...


I would suspect that a model of the building already exists somewhere.

----------


## G.Walker

I wouldn't mind seeing another Pickard Chilton project...but I also like Cesar Pelli, Boka Powell, and HKS.

----------


## progressiveboy

Since were speculating and forming ideas on the new DT tower, perhaps a partnership with CR and OG&E building a new 50 story tower. Sounds like a reasonable possibility!

----------


## jedicurt

i'd much rather see 2 30-story  than 1 50-story

----------


## Plutonic Panda

See, I know I might be less popular with this idea, but, I love height. So if we could get a another 50 or better yet, a 65-70 story tower, I would explode(in a good way lol). But, I know that is most likely not going to happen.

----------


## G.Walker

> i'd much rather see 2 30-story  than 1 50-story


I agree

----------


## Just the facts

> i'd much rather see 2 30-story  than 1 50-story


I agree as well.  It is kind of funny how the urbanist seem to favor low-rise high density and people who are more suburban-minded like tall buildings.  I guess it so so they can see downtown from the suburbs.

----------


## G.Walker

I am really feeling this design of this new 30 story office tower proposed for downtown Austin (of course), lol:

----------


## jedicurt

> I agree as well.  It is kind of funny how the urbanist seem to favor low-rise high density and people who are more suburban-minded like tall buildings.  I guess it so so they can see downtown from the suburbs.


i think for me it's a matter of just density... anything over 25-story, i just want more of... so i'm not opposed to 2 more 50-story if that is what is coming... but i will always take 2 buildings over 1.   and i think i will fill that way until that image in the Banner of OKCTalk is filled with buildings from one side to the other... then we can start talking about height and getting some super tall builds to rival Dubai

----------


## jedicurt

> I am really feeling this design of this new 30 story office tower proposed for downtown Austin (of course), lol:


i like... but i just hope that if we really are getting two announcements in the next year... i'm okay with one of them being the modern glass look... but i think i'd like for one of them to be something other than just a giant piece of glass...

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I agree as well.  It is kind of funny how the urbanist seem to favor low-rise high density and *people who are more suburban-minded like tall buildings.  I guess it so so they can see downtown from the suburbs*.


Well if you haven't figured out by now, I am more suburban lol. I think it looks cooler driving into the city and provides better skyline shots for the city image.

----------


## swilki

> i like... but i just hope that if we really are getting two announcements in the next year... i'm okay with one of them being the modern glass look... but i think i'd like for one of them to be something other than just a giant piece of glass...


agreed

----------


## Just the facts

> Well if you haven't figured out by now, I am more suburban lol. I think it looks cooler driving into the city and provides better skyline shots for the city image.


That is exactly what I was saying.  The urbanist see downtown as a place to live, work, and play and they think it should be scaled to the humans that use it.  The suburbanist see downtown as a collection of pieces of art and they want to see them from where they live.

----------


## Pete

> Pete, how likely is it that we see new towers from both Continental and OG&E?  Or do you see it happening where Continental builds something new and OG&E takes the tower that Continental is currently in?  Or some other way?


I think we'll see something from both, just not sure how far along they both are.

But I do know this:

1. The Stage Center site is actively seeking bids and has been for a while.  I'm a very certain Continental is the leading candidate to purchase that property and I don't think the current owners want to keep sitting on it much longer.  I think the only delay is CLR getting it's act together so it can announce a major development, because that would counterbalance any negativity about demolishing the current structure.  Don't think anyone wants to make an announcement until they can frame it in the "this is a good thing for downtown" vein.  I'm sure they'll want to present some renderings so people can visualize how cool it will be instead of focusing on the loss of the Stage Center structure.

2. OG&E hired a national real estate company to scout sites for a new downtown HQ, and this has been going on for a while -- like at least a year.  I suspect they are looking north of the OKC Museum of Art along Hudson, although I'm sure they've looked at other sites as well.  I think we'll hear something definite before the end of the year and maybe much sooner.

3. I think Devon is cooling it's heals right now.  Eventually, they'll expand into the neighboring 'Pretakes' block but it seems they are in no hurry.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Perhaps they are just letting CLR and OG&E have their turn as not to steal the spot light.

----------


## Pete

> Perhaps they are just letting CLR and OG&E have their turn as not to steal the spot light.


I think that is part of it, as Larry Nichols really wants to shift focus to the new companies that are moving downtown and expanding.

This was a big part of him insisting on the Project 180 improvements:  To lure more HQ's to downtown OKC.

The next major tower would signal to the word this isn't just about Devon.

----------


## Teo9969

> I think we'll see something from both, just not sure how far along they both are.
> 
> But I do know this:
> 
> 1. The Stage Center site is actively seeking bids and has been for a while.  I'm a very certain Continental is the leading candidate to purchase that property and I don't think the current owners want to keep sitting on it much longer.  I think the only delay is CLR getting it's act together so it can announce a major development, because that would counterbalance any negativity about demolishing the current structure.  Don't think anyone wants to make an announcement until they can frame it in the "this is a good thing for downtown" vein.  I'm sure they'll want to present some renderings so people can visualize how cool it will be instead of focusing on the loss of the Stage Center structure.
> 
> 2. OG&E hired a national real estate company to scout sites for a new downtown HQ, and this has been going on for a while -- like at least a year.  *I suspect they are looking north of the OKC Museum of Art along Hudson*, although I'm sure they've looked at other sites as well.  I think we'll hear something definite before the end of the year and maybe much sooner.
> 
> 3. I think Devon is cooling it's heals right now.  Eventually, they'll expand into the neighboring 'Pretakes' block but it seems they are in no hurry.


Dear God, please yes.

A building right there, especially if it were >500 ft. would not only balance the skyline (especially the fantastic view from the East), it would bring more life to that part of the CBD. It seems like Hudson is a wall of parking garages that separates the CBD from the western portion of downtown.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> That is exactly what I was saying.  The urbanist see downtown as a place to live, work, and play and they think it should be scaled to the humans that use it.  The suburbanist see downtown as a collection of pieces of art and they want to see them from where they live.


Well I want downtown to be a place to live, work and play for sure!!!! I also want taller buildings. I think I want everything lol.... But, I do see what you're saying. It's cool... Either way, it will be good to see anything really. As long as it's not crap.  :Smile:

----------


## Steve

> I think we are getting very close to an announcement by Continental and/or OG&E.


Or someone else totally unexpected.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Steve's the master of suspense.

----------


## Spartan

> Or someone else totally unexpected.


What a shameless tease!  :Tiphat:

----------


## kbsooner

> Or someone else totally unexpected.


Oh no he didn't!  RUTHLESS.

----------


## DowntownMan

Didn't Devon release their tower to a gathering of their employees? Shall we watch for one of these companies to be meeting with employees for a big announcement soon??

----------


## kevinpate

> Or someone else totally unexpected.


Mental note - Clark Kent isn't the only reporter with a secret, or a bit of a mean streak.
 :Smile:

----------


## G.Walker

I don't know who it could be outside of CR, Devon, OG&E, or MidFirst. We have been talking about those companies for over a year, and everyboody expects its one those companies, so if its none of these then who? I will go out on a limb and say Boeing. They have brought thousands of employees here in the last few years, and probably looking to bring more, or create new jobs. No one is really expecting Boeing to build a tower...that is the only company I can think of. Not too mention Boeing has recently secured some multi-billion dollar contracts...hence needing to create new jobs.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I don't know who it could be outside of CR, Devon, OG&E, or MidFirst. We have been talking about those companies for over a year, and everyboody expects its one those companies, so if its none of these then who? I will go out on a limb and say Boeing. They have brought thousands of employees here in the last few years, and probably looking to bring more, or create new jobs. No one is really expecting Boeing to build a tower...that is the only company I can think of. Not too mention Boeing has recently secured some multi-billion dollar contracts...hence needing to create new jobs.


0% chance it is Boeing     But there have been rumors of an out of state relocation to Okc.      Which would be one of the reasons of this staying so quiet

----------


## Praedura

> I don't know who it could be outside of CR, Devon, OG&E, or MidFirst.....


Trump Tower OKC?

----------


## DowntownMan

Im predicting its CLR as they will be needing new space soon whether its leased or built. Will wait and see.

And if I remember correctly...when they moved here they released an article with excitement for being all in one building for the first time...so they wont want to lease all over downtown like they will probably need to do soon.

----------


## therondo

Just thinking about this gives me goosebumps! I keep a low profile on here, just taking in all the information, trying to piece it together. Everyone knows that something is brewing and that it is just a matter of time before an announcement (or several :-D) is made. When I get on here and read all of the threads and drive downtown and see all the development and such going on, the pride I have in this city nearly overcomes me! It's kind of crazy how little the average Oklahoma City resident knows about the fantastic and dramatic changes going on in their own hometown! Days like today make me wanna shake people and say, 'Don't you know what a great place this is?' Maybe I'm just eccentric, but being 28 yo and watching OUR city come alive throughout the course of my life, makes my sense of pride even greater. Call me crazy! Cuz I'm DOWNTOWN PROUD!!! lol  :Dance:

----------


## UnFrSaKn

As a 31 year old who found this forum about four years ago by searching for "new Oklahoma City skyscraper", I know exactly how you feel. The Devon Tower announcement was one of the most genuinely excited times in recent memory. I was on my iPhone at work constantly refreshing the Devon Tower thread and my jaw dropped when I first saw the rendering. I went around showing people at work, who didn't really share my excitement. I'm so thankful people my age can finally have pride in our city and smile at that skyline I grew up seeing. (Growing up about two miles of downtown). Can't wait to get back into the swing of things once construction starts. (My hobbies)

----------


## therondo

I understand about people not sharing the same excitement over the things that are happening here! If everyone in this city felt like the majority of us on here, can you imagine what this city would feel and look like? My interest started with the groundbreaking of the Ballpark and Canal. I clipped every single article in the Oklahoman having to do with downtown development and the initial Maps projects. My family thought I was crazy! What a great time to be an Oklahoma Citian!

----------


## G.Walker

> 0% chance it is Boeing     But there have been rumors of an out of state relocation to Okc.      Which would be one of the reasons of this staying so quiet


I remember an article by Steve a few years back where he interviewed Cathy O'Connor re downtown development. Her words were, "We would like to see Boeing have a downtown prescence, I wouldn't rule that out, its something that we could look forward to in the future".

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I remember an article by Steve a few years back where he interviewed Cathy O'Connor re downtown development. Her words were, "We would like to see Boeing have a downtown prescence, I wouldn't rule that out, its something that we could look forward to in the future".


As someone that works in the aerospace business. I think that is very very unlikely   But I hope that I am wrong

----------


## Spartan

> 0% chance it is Boeing     But there have been rumors of an out of state relocation to Okc.      Which would be one of the reasons of this staying so quiet


I think this is a very interesting possibility. Obviously a major out of state relocation will involve state and city incentives. I have definitely heard of some quiet economic development negotiations, that could be a coincidence or related. We also have good reason to believe the local companies are building, including MidFirst, Continental, definitely OG+E, possibly still SandRidge, and once again Devon. Or we could see a mixed-use tower on some of the most prime land, like Stage Center.

Can it be a coincidence that we have heard so little lately from all these things: Stage Center site redevelopment, economic development, corporate relocation, Devon development, Continental's growth, MidFirst's north side property, and so on.

----------


## maestro6

I'm another of those regular readers but infrequent posters on here. Always eager for downtown construction updates. A few weeks back, while visiting my daughter, who is a student in the architecture program at one of our state universities, she told me that she has recently seen either sketches or a model of a new tower that is planned for downtown OKC. I've been pestering her since then to try to get more details--who is having it built, can she get a photo of the renderings, etc., but no luck yet. I hope to visit with her again next weekend, so maybe I can learn more about it.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Does Boeing even have any high-rise towers anywhere?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Boeing International Headquarters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Ok, now something like that would be awesome for OKC!!!!!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> OG&E hired a national real estate company to scout sites for a new downtown HQ, and this has been going on for a while -- like at least a year.  I suspect they are looking north of the OKC Museum of Art along Hudson, although I'm sure they've looked at other sites as well.


I've wondered what that Star of David shaped building is north of that parking lot on Dean McGee & Hudson but never asked. Could that whole block be developed? I can't name from memory the other structures there and the likelihood they would move.

----------


## hoya

> I've wondered what that Star of David shaped building is north of that parking lot on Dean McGee & Hudson but never asked. Could that whole block be developed? I can't name from memory the other structures there and the likelihood they would move.


It's some kind of bank security vault or something.  Armored cars pick up and drop off there.  Other than that, there's a small law firm or tax firm or something over across from Legacy, and a small drive-through bank.  Just tiny one story buildings that could easily go somewhere else.

----------


## CaptDave

I have no reason for this idea other than a wild guess, but could it be a major operating division of a large corporation such as GE Oil & Gas, GE Energy, etc? Are they large enough to need a separate building? With GE's wind and alternative energy business and their O&G operations OKC might be an attractive location for their management and administrative staff. Just a thought. The Boeing discussion caused me to think of this tangent.

----------


## soonerguru

> I think that is part of it, as Larry Nichols really wants to shift focus to the new companies that are moving downtown and expanding.
> 
> This was a big part of him insisting on the Project 180 improvements:  To lure more HQ's to downtown OKC.
> 
> The next major tower would signal to the word this isn't just about Devon.


Isn't Larry Nichols pretty much retired from Devon at this point?

----------


## cagoklahoma

Hearsay has indicated that Larry had to "retire" because he was required to begin taking withdrawls from his company retirement, but he still maintains an office at Devon as the executive chairman and goes to work most days. Guys at that level don't retire. I bet he is still very much involved in the Devon decision making.

----------


## Spartan

> Isn't Larry Nichols pretty much retired from Devon at this point?


So he can be even more involved locally. He'll probably still be involved in Devon since this isn't a forced ouster like CHK.

----------


## plmccordj

> Or someone else totally unexpected.


I know this is a crazy guess but read his post again. What other company is based out of Norman, Oklahoma and has the slogan. "Totally Unexpected".  Taco Mayo. Hardly a candidate for a tower but since we are reading between the lines.  :Smile:

----------


## DowntownMan

> I know this is a crazy guess but read his post again. What other company is based out of Norman, Oklahoma and has the slogan. "Totally Unexpected".  Taco Mayo. Hardly a candidate for a tower but since we are reading between the lines.


They are not based out of Norman. They are located off SW 104th and Penn in a building the size of a single doctors office.  They might fit on half of a floor in a building downtown if they were to move.

----------


## plmccordj

> They are not based out of Norman. They are located off SW 104th and Penn in a building the size of a single doctors office.  They might fit on half of a floor in a building downtown if they were to move.


I guess you are right. I guess Norman is where they started.  Anyway, I was just having some fun with his comment.

----------


## DowntownMan

> I guess you are right. I guess Norman is where they started.  Anyway, I was just having some fun with his comment.


I knew you were just joking, just wanted to let you know they were located in OKC.

----------


## Steve

> I know this is a crazy guess but read his post again. What other company is based out of Norman, Oklahoma and has the slogan. "Totally Unexpected".  Taco Mayo. Hardly a candidate for a tower but since we are reading between the lines.


I've been meaning to strike out just one candidate from this discussion, to allow all of you to better focus on who might be behind the new tower. So here we go... it's not Taco Mayo. I hope this helps.

 :Wink:

----------


## plmccordj

> I've been meaning to strike out just one candidate from this discussion, to allow all of you to better focus on who might be behind the new tower. So here we go... it's not Taco Mayo. I hope this helps.


I hope everyone knows I was just kidding.  :Smile:  Thanks for clearing that up. My next guess was going to be 7-11.

----------


## therondo

> I hope everyone knows I was just kidding.  Thanks for clearing that up. My next guess was going to be 7-11.


7-11 Oklahoma is too small for any building of significant size. Plus the Browns are tightwads, except when it comes to employee benefits.

----------


## Steve

Humor is sometimes lost online. Horribly, terribly so.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I've been meaning to strike out just one candidate from this discussion, to allow all of you to better focus on who might be behind the new tower. So here we go... it's not Taco Mayo. I hope this helps.


So Steve... has the candidate been mentioned in this discussion?

----------


## dmoor82

Steve how many times a day do you get a mystery tower question? Just wondering,because I assume it gets old, I'm guessing.

----------


## Praedura

> ..... it's not Taco Mayo.


Too bad. Their tower could have been in the shape of a giant jalapeno.

----------


## okcpulse

> I've been meaning to strike out just one candidate from this discussion, to allow all of you to better focus on who might be behind the new tower. So here we go... it's not Taco Mayo. I hope this helps.


I am going to assume, Steve, that when this announcement happens, it is going to blow away even the greatest of doubters.  I can't wait to see the reaction on the faces of Houstonians.  They are still trying to wrap their head around Devon moving its Houston offices to OKC.

----------


## Praedura

> ... I can't wait to see the reaction on the faces of *Houstonians*.


Hmmm, that reminds me. I always wonder what we are.

OKCitians?
OKCites?
OKCians?
OKCers?

*scratches head

----------


## BrettM2

So... should we go ahead close this useless thread down or leave it open a wee bit longer? :Tongue:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Steve how many times a day do you get a mystery tower question? Just wondering,because I assume it gets old, I'm guessing.


Hey, Steve, how many times a month do you reply to emails asking about mystery towers?  Sincerely, Still Waiting  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Hmmm, that reminds me. I always wonder what we are.
> 
> OKCitians?
> OKCites?
> OKCians?
> OKCers?
> 
> *scratches head


OKCtalkers? lol

----------


## Steve

> Hey, Steve, how many times a month do you reply to emails asking about mystery towers?  Sincerely, Still Waiting


 Today:
I was asked about this at breakfast. I was asked about it at a press conference I had to cover. I was asked about it at the coffee shop. I was asked about it at lunch. Can't recall anyone asking at the office.... day ain't over yet.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Everyone waits for the latest post on this thread to be from you...

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Today:
> I was asked about this at breakfast. I was asked about it at a press conference I had to cover. I was asked about it at the coffee shop. I was asked about it at lunch. Can't recall anyone asking at the office.... day ain't over yet.


haha

I don't blame you if you can't respond.  You probably don't have the time!

----------


## Zack232

I added a few buildings to the skyline. I know this is slightly unrealistic, but it's still fun to dream.

----------


## mcca7596

I honestly don't think that's unrealistic within the next 10 years. It looks really cool!

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I added a few buildings to the skyline. I know this is slightly unrealistic, but it's still fun to dream.


Looks like you put the Biltmore back, cool though.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Awesome man!!!!! When I get my CAD and 3dsmax training together, I will render my fantasy of our skyline and you'll see unrealistic lol... (I won't go to crazy  :Stick Out Tongue: )

----------


## dankrutka

> I am going to assume, Steve, that when this announcement happens, it is going to blow away even the greatest of doubters.  I can't wait to see the reaction on the faces of Houstonians.  They are still trying to wrap their head around Devon moving its Houston offices to OKC.


Not sure "stunned" is the right word. Devon had limited operations there. "Stunned" would be if a major HQs relocated to OKC from Houston.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Not sure "stunned" is the right word. Devon had limited operations there. "Stunned" would be if a major HQs relocated to OKC from Houston.


If I was to guess what he is saying, it's that a big company is going to be relocating here from Houston. Don't know if he has solid proof and is in the know per say or if he is just going out on a limb. I know Conoco was a name brought up quite a few times, but I don't know what the deal is with them anymore.

----------


## dankrutka

> If I was to guess what he is saying, it's that a big company is going to be relocating here from Houston. Don't know if he has solid proof and is in the know per say or if he is just going out on a limb. I know Conoco was a name brought up quite a few times, but I don't know what the deal is with them anymore.


Yeah. I'm not even sure where I got "stunned" from now... Lol. A major HQs leaving Houston would be big time.

----------


## ljbab728

> Everyone waits for the latest post on this thread to be from you...


Of course this won't be the place that Steve unveils any happenings.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> A major HQs leaving Houston would be big time.


Definitely. It would make this whole wait worth it if that ends up happening.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> Of course this won't be the place that Steve unveils any happenings.


No, but I would expect something like, "You guys will like my story I'm working on for (fill in the blank)"

----------


## ljbab728

> No, but I would expect something like, "You guys will like my story I'm working on for (fill in the blank)"


Yes, he's big on teasers for posts here and that brings readers to his blog and stories at the Oklahoman.

----------


## dmoor82

I'll admit it I check Steve's blog and this thread about ten times a day!lol

----------


## kevinpate

> Too bad. Their tower could have been in the shape of a giant jalapeno.


 ... on a stick

<rimshot & apologies to Jeff and Jose>

----------


## DoctorTaco

Steve, if you had your way everyone would quit bugging you about this until around when?

----------


## betts

Regardless, I seriously doubt we'll find out about the theoretical new tower in this thread. Which makes me wonder why I read it.

----------


## G.Walker

I think the suspense and excitement of a new tower has just grown on everybody. There was not this much excitement leading up to Devon Tower...but it seems like the coverage and construction of Devon Tower has more people interested in downtown development, so now we have more people researching, asking questions, and investigating. I think the greatest part of all this is the anticipation leading up to the announcement, it causes for great conversation and speculation, but once announced I think some interest will die down a bit, at least for me.

----------


## AP

> I added a few buildings to the skyline. I know this is slightly unrealistic, but it's still fun to dream. 
> 
> Attachment 3357


That's beautiful. I really don't think it unrealistic for the future, though.

----------


## Steve

> Steve, if you had your way everyone would quit bugging you about this until around when?


Take a 45-day moratorium....

----------


## HangryHippo

> Take a 45-day moratorium....


Steve, you tease.

----------


## G.Walker

Steve usually only starts teasing like this when we are getting close...lol...but it adds to the anticipation which is great. Moreover, I really do appreciate Steve pushing the limit, and giving us as much information as possible without breaking his silence, its just goes to show how passionate and proud he is about his stories and reputation.

----------


## G.Walker

UnFrSakn...you are hilarious!

----------


## okcpulse

> Not sure "stunned" is the right word. Devon had limited operations there. "Stunned" would be if a major HQs relocated to OKC from Houston.


When discussing the greatest doubters, I was referring to anyone in general, not particularly Houston.  The reason I mentioned Houston is some of my die-hard Texas colleagues had a few choice words when news traveled that Devon was closing its Houston office.

I was trying to gauge from Steve just how major this deal might be.

Speaking of Houston, Devon's sign at Two Allen Center is officially dismounted.

----------


## metro

My prediction is that one of us posters will break the news first, then Steve will report with official details that we don't have access to.

----------


## G.Walker

> Take a 45-day moratorium....


I will take an "Oath Of Post", and not post on this thread until April 5, 2013...or until we have official announcement, whichever comes first. This will be my last post...Anybody with me?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

*crickets*

----------


## Praedura

> I will take an "Oath Of Post", and not post on this thread until April 5, 2013...or until we have official announcement, whichever comes first. This will be my last post...Anybody with me?


Why on earth would I do something like that? I don't think you understand what this thread is for.

----------


## hoya

I check this thread because just about anyone with any sort of source will post their stuff here.  We get Pete saying that CR and OG&E are both trying to purchase land, and then Steve comes in and mentions a third party that he thinks will announce soon.  That doesn't mean Pete is incorrect though.  I am a generally positive person, and I take this to mean we could have up to 3 towers announced within a year or two.  And that's without another Devon building on the Preftakes block.

With the accelerated development of Deep Deuce and East Bricktown, I would suspect that within the next 5 years, those areas will fill up, and we may start seeing development spill over past EK Gaylord/Broadway and start filling up some of the empty land in the CBD.  We have had so much available land downtown that it's hard to get the benefits of real density.  But we're getting there.  Every project that goes up puts us a little closer.  A few new towers will eat up a decent amount of land that is either currently empty or might as well be empty.  Moreso than a lack of tall towers, downtown OKC suffers from too much one-story construction and too much surface parking or just empty space.  Success breeds success, and the more construction that takes place in this area will result in higher and better uses for the remaining land.

The real excitement comes from not just several new towers, but from knowing that each one brings us a big step closer to having a real 24 hour downtown again.

----------


## Praedura

> My prediction is that one of us posters will break the news first, then Steve will report with official details that we don't have access to.


Bingo.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> When discussing the greatest doubters, I was referring to anyone in general, not particularly Houston.  The reason I mentioned Houston is some of my die-hard Texas colleagues had a few choice words when news traveled that Devon was closing its Houston office.
> 
> I was trying to gauge from Steve just how major this deal might be.
> 
> Speaking of Houston, Devon's sign at Two Allen Center is officially dismounted.


So you don't have any knowledge of the company behind the tower being from Houston?

----------


## Jesseda

steve said a 45 moratorium.. In some definition of moratorium it describes "An authorization to a debtor, such as a bank or nation, permitting temporary suspension of payments".. hmmm could this be a hint to a large bank company building a 45 story building downtown???

----------


## MikeLucky

> Take a 45-day moratorium....


Great.... so, there will be an announcement on April 1st, and we will all wonder if it's an April Fools prank...

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pete

I'm thrilled to learn there may be another legitimate player beyond OG&E and Continental, which both seem to be very real.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> steve said a 45 moratorium.. In some definition of moratorium it describes "An authorization to a debtor, such as a bank or nation, permitting temporary suspension of payments".. hmmm could this be a hint to a large bank company building a 45 story building downtown???


Riddle me this, Batman...

----------


## sroberts24

> I'm thrilled to learn there may be another legitimate player beyond OG&E and Continental, which both seem to be very real.


By the beard of Zeus!

----------


## CaptDave

Generic Calendar/Clock - Countdown to Apr 5, 2013 9:04 AM in Oklahoma City

----------


## Teo9969

> generic calendar/clock - countdown to apr 5, 2013 9:04 am in oklahoma city


oh. My. God.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Ha, I had already made one...

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown...r+Announcement

By the way this would be the Live NewsOK Business chat...

----------


## sroberts24

This is such an AMAZING time for OKC!  We have some many things going on right now.  5 years ago we would have been going crazy over just 2 of the many things either under construction, proposed or on the drawing board.  The Maywood Apartments alone would have caused an uproar 5 years ago.  Now we have that, Level, Edge, 8 or so UC/Proposed hotels, convention center, the River projects, streetcar, the garages, Sandridge updates (Fingers crossed they will continue momentum,) retail being added what seems like daily and not to mention 1, 2 or maybe even 3 new towers!!!!!  I am taking this for granted, as much as I am trying not to.  So excited and proud to live in OKC!

----------


## CaptDave

> oh. My. God.


I was cracking up as I made it, I can't wait for Steve's reaction!  :Big Grin:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I will take an "Oath Of Post", and not post on this thread until April 5, 2013...or until we have official announcement, whichever comes first. This will be my last post...Anybody with me?


I'm with you.  I'll view, but I'm not going to post until it's in the new thread for the next new tower.




> Great.... so, there will be an announcement on April 1st, and we will all wonder if it's an April Fools prank...


Starting tomorrow, 45 days is April 3rd  :Wink:

----------


## Steve

A countdown clock? You're taking me quite literally, aren't you? 
Can I add "give or take" a few weeks depending on due diligence? Also keep in mind, if a fall off the fiscal cliff does take place, and if it's a worst case scenario, nothing is certain. Ditto for if Chesapeake and SandRidge are sold and moved out of state in the next 90 days.

----------


## MikeLucky

> A countdown clock? You're taking me quite literally, aren't you? 
> Can I add "give or take" a few weeks depending on due diligence? Also keep in mind, if a fall off the fiscal cliff does take place, and if it's a worst case scenario, nothing is certain. *Ditto for if Chesapeake and SandRidge are sold and moved out of state in the next 90 days*.


Oh, for the love of gawd...

----------


## pickles

Not gonna happen.

----------


## Steve

Not saying it's going to happen. But I'm just wanting to remind everyone - the situation is still very fluid.

----------


## CaptDave

> A countdown clock? You're taking me quite literally, aren't you? 
> Can I add "give or take" a few weeks depending on due diligence? Also keep in mind, if a fall off the fiscal cliff does take place, and if it's a worst case scenario, nothing is certain. Ditto for if Chesapeake and SandRidge are sold and moved out of state in the next 90 days.


Ha ha - just having a little fun Steve. I promise I won't ask you about "The Tower" for another 44 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes!   :Big Grin:

----------


## OKCRT

All I know about an out of towner coming in is that I have heard Shell 5 times this week.

I don't believe it but for some reason people keep mentioning Shell. Why would Shell build a tower in downtown OKC? Is there any connection here in OKC that would bring Shell into the picture? Like I said,I don't believe it but just throwing it out there because I keep hearing this.

----------


## adaniel

^
Shell could be in the facilitator in all of this, possibly relocating staff to, say, Continental's buildings, and CRT possibly building a tower.

I have actually heard rumors of Shell, and I did notice at a convention I attended in Houston a few weeks ago that some Shell landmen were hunting for mid-continent acreage. Of course this means nothing and any new ventures into this area could probably be administered from their Houston office. Just throwing some wood on the fire.....

----------


## Steve

Shell is a rumor out there....

----------


## tillyato

> Shell is a rumor out there....


Steve, you horrible tease!

----------


## Just the facts

Shell sold their Houston headquarters buildings last year; all 1.8 million sq feet.  They agreed to a 15 year lease as part of the deal but OKC is well aware of how leases can be broken.

Shell Oil Headquarters Selling for Record $550M in Houston | Real Capital Analytics

----------


## soonerguru

> Not saying it's going to happen. But I'm just wanting to remind everyone - *the situation is still very fluid.*


So, it's definitely an oil company, per Steve. Clever.

----------


## wdj

Forgive me if this is irrelevant, but when I was at the Thunder/Warriors game on the 6th, I noticed during a break that then they do the little welcome thing to corporate attendees, they had mentioned Exxon-Mobil. Do they have any type of presence in OKC? I was kind of curious...

----------


## okcpulse

> Forgive me if this is irrelevant, but when I was at the Thunder/Warriors game on the 6th, I noticed during a break that then they do the little welcome thing to corporate attendees, they had mentioned Exxon-Mobil. Do they have any type of presence in OKC? I was kind of curious...


Not even a slight possibility.  They are building a giant campus south of The Woodlands for 12,000 employees.  Anadarko Petroleum is building a second 31 story tower next to their current tower in The Woodlands.

Since Texas has a history of reacting to growth rather than proacting, this is going to cause a major strain.  I hope I am not here much longer.  We are long overdue on relocation.

----------


## okcpulse

> So you don't have any knowledge of the company behind the tower being from Houston?


See my PM, PhiAlpha.

----------


## PhiAlpha

Shell has closer to 1 million acres in Kansas, they've been leasing there in addition to the purchase that gave them the 600,000 acres listed in the article. They are trying to expand their North American shale/unconventional oil and gas presence and their primary focus right now is the northern Oklahoma and southern Kansas Mississippian play. 

Shell definitely fits better with the "multinational company seeking a North American HQ" deal that the chamber of commerce through out there last year. There have also been rumors out there about Shell purchasing sandridge or CHK to increase their presence in onshore North America. There could be something to the shell rumor.

----------


## Just the facts

Does this mean McClendon and Ward could be putting the band back together?

----------


## PhiAlpha

^ awesome

----------


## catch22

> Shell has closer to 1 million acres in Kansas, they've been leasing there in addition to the purchase that gave them the 600,000 acres listed in the article. They are trying to expand their North American shale/unconventional oil and gas presence and their primary focus right now is the northern Oklahoma and southern Kansas Mississippian play. 
> 
> Shell definitely fits better with the "multinational company seeking a North American HQ" deal that the chamber of commerce through out there last year. There have also been rumors out there about Shell purchasing sandridge or CHK to increase their presence in onshore North America. There could be something to the shell rumor.


If they bought Sandridge, they'd also have bought a prime piece of land at 4th and EKG.  :Smile:

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Not even a slight possibility.  They are building a giant campus south of The Woodlands for 12,000 employees.  Anadarko Petroleum is building a second 31 story tower next to their current tower in The Woodlands.
> 
> Since Texas has a history of reacting to growth rather than proacting, this is going to cause a major strain.  I hope I am not here much longer.  We are long overdue on relocation.


Exxon owns XTO and they kept them in Ft Worth as their unconventional group and exxon itself is firmly planted in Houston. Don't see any reason they would want  another campus in another city.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Shell is a rumor out there....


I said I wouldn't comment in this thread again, but Steve, you're worse than a $2 hooker on S. Shields.  Wave at Bates for us! lolololol




> Shell said that the next two big markets for them are Asia and North America.  They have already announced several months ago they are building a large headquarters in Asia. 
> Then just read this article: UPDATE 1-Fund claims SandRidge CEO's family has big land stake | Reuters
> 
> Notice anything in particular?


Other than the article having today's date, I give up...

----------


## Just the facts

> Other than the article having today's date, I give up...


5 Largest Lease Holders

1)  Sandridge (OKC)
2)  Chesapeake (OKC)
3)  Shell (???)
4)  Devon (OKC)
5)  WTC Resources (OKC)

----------


## Just the facts

I wonder if WTC means "Ward, Tom - Children".

----------


## Lafferty Daniel

> I wonder if WTC means "Ward, Tom - Children".


It's WCT. Not WTC. I'm guessing "Ward Children's Trust"?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> 5 Largest Lease Holders
> 
> 1)  Sandridge (OKC)
> 2)  Chesapeake (OKC)
> 3)  Shell (???)
> 4)  Devon (OKC)
> 5)  WTC Resources (OKC)


Not all of us are smarties on here.  What does this mean?




> It's WCT. Not WTC. I'm guessing "Ward Children's Trust"?


Maybe, Ward's Children Torn.

----------


## Teo9969

> Not all of us are smarties on here.  What does this mean?


It doesn't "mean" anything. It's just juxtaposing information for the purpose of extrapolation.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> It doesn't "mean" anything. It's just juxtaposing information for the purpose of extrapolation.


Well, that's just stupid then.

Moving on....

----------


## Teo9969

> *Well, that's just stupid then.*
> 
> Moving on....


Have you forgotten what thread we're posting in  :Wink:

----------


## Just the facts

WCT Resouces is a trust setup for the children of Tom Ward and is run by his oldest son.  Their holdings boarder some of the holdings of Sandridge and that is the one of the primary issues behind the TPG-Axon attempts to oust Tom Ward.

----------


## HangryHippo

> It's WCT. Not WTC. I'm guessing "Ward Children's Trust"?


Haha!  Nicely done.

----------


## HangryHippo

How likely is it that SandRidge and/or Chesapeake are sold and moved out of town?  I know they're in trouble, but is it likely that they'll actually be moved?

----------


## pickles

In the next three months?  Not very likely.

----------


## HangryHippo

In the next year?

----------


## okcpulse

But how much trouble are they really in?  We all know know that Reuters screwed up and stuck their foot in their mouth with their "reports" of wrongdoings by McClendon, which turned out to be nothing.  

Now we have TPG-Axom, who wants to stir up drama instead of meeting with company officials in a constructive manner to see what can be done to raise what they call undervalued stock.  These theatrics are causing damage more than they are helping.

----------


## Teo9969

> How likely is it that SandRidge and/or Chesapeake are sold and moved out of town?  I know they're in trouble, but is it likely that they'll actually be moved?


I think the only company that would be able to absorb CHK is Exxon Mobil.

SD, well, just from the little information that I have come across, I'm wondering if there's potential for Shell to buy out SD and make OKC it's N.A. Headquarters

----------


## AP

> But how much trouble are they really in?  We all know know that Reuters screwed up and stuck their foot in their mouth with their "reports" of wrongdoings by McClendon, which turned out to be nothing.


I love Chesapeake as much as the next Oklahoman, but I don't think it turned out to be nothing. He was doing some pretty sketchy things, which ultimately led to his ousting as CEO.

In any case, I don't see them being sold and moved anytime soon.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

What's the latest on that new signage they had renderings for on the tower?

----------


## jccouger

If Shell is moving here they are buying Sandridge as well. Its gotta be a package deal.

----------


## Teo9969

> I love Chesapeake as much as the next Oklahoman, but I don't think it turned out to be nothing. He was doing some pretty sketchy things, *which ultimately led to his ousting as CEO.*
> 
> In any case, I don't see them being sold and moved anytime soon.


He wasn't ousted, he resigned.

----------


## catch22

He was fired according to financial documents submitted to the govt. by CHK.

----------


## jedicurt

> He was fired according to financial documents submitted to the govt. by CHK.


Out of curiosity, when was he asked to step down as Chairman?  wasn't that like may of last year?  That will also be remembered as being Aubrey's decision by many in Oklahoma

----------


## Teo9969

> He was fired according to financial documents submitted to the govt. by CHK.


Link?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> He was fired according to financial documents submitted to the govt. by CHK.


That is semantics    If he "resigned" he wouldn't get a severance

----------


## Teo9969

Regardless of whether or not he was "fired", he had not intentions of remaining the CEO at CHK with a board that demanded he operate under the cash flow of the company.

----------


## huskysooner

It is amazing how many people post on this forum with authority yet have no idea as to the true facts regarding what goes on at CHK. Back to the tower discussion...my money is on OG&E and Enogex.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> it is amazing how many people post on this forum with authority yet have no idea as to the true facts regarding what goes on at chk. Back to the tower discussion...my money is on og&e and enogex.


*like*

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> It is amazing how many people post on this forum with authority yet have no idea as to the true facts regarding what goes on at CHK. Back to the tower discussion...my money is on OG&E and Enogex.


"Mississippi Blues and Plutonic Panda like your comment"

----------


## Plutonic Panda

lol..... I also like your comment as well, Mississippi Blues. . . hahahahaha..  :Smile:

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I think the only company that would be able to absorb CHK is Exxon Mobil.
> 
> SD, well, just from the little information that I have come across, I'm wondering if there's potential for Shell to buy out SD and make OKC it's N.A. Headquarters


Any major could buy out CHK, Exxon already bought a large, gas heavy unconventional exploration company in XTO Energy. No way they by another one, especially as debt ridden as CHK is.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I love Chesapeake as much as the next Oklahoman, but I don't think it turned out to be nothing. He was doing some pretty sketchy things, which ultimately led to his ousting as CEO.
> 
> In any case, I don't see them being sold and moved anytime soon.


The Reuters reports were over nothing, it was excessive debt and low stock price combined with low commodity prices that drove Aubrey out. Don't believe everything in the media... but not going to get into a CHK business practice discussion.

----------


## Just the facts

> Or someone else totally unexpected.


If I was down to my last dollar would I be better off putting it on 13-Black or betting on Gaylord Square (a mixed use residential/hotel/retail development)?

----------


## MikeLucky

> If I was down to my last dollar would I be better off putting it on 13-Black or betting on Gaylord Square (a mixed use residential/hotel/retail development)?


Always bet on black...




Lol

----------


## zookeeper

My prediction is Shell buys Sandridge and builds another tower nearby.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Always bet on black...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol


haha, this!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Via today's live business chat from Steve Lackmeyer:




> A whole half hour before anyone hit me with a tower question. You folks are getting slow to the draw. A councilman recently (and jokingly) accused me of being "sadistic" and teasing readers with just tidbits about the tower. I try to give you what I can, and I not intended to tease at all!
> 
> So, all of you, who are great readers, who make OKC Central a great discussion, keep hitting me with new creative questions aimed at dragging more information from me.
> 
> I'm going to stick with what I've said: a deal is being done, but it's not done yet. It will involve the Stage Center site. Other groups/companies are interested in building high-rises downtown beyond the one in the works for the Stage Center site. But I cannot say with certainty whether they will be built. We have too many moving pieces right now, and too much uncertainty involving Chesapeake Energy and SandRidge Energy.

----------


## Pete

Now, the word is that it is NOT Continental (or OG&E) that is in the process of trying to work a deal on the Stage Center site, but a third company...

Still hoping for CLR & OG&E but if/when they build, it's not going to be at Stage Center.

Have no idea who this new company is, so this will be very, very interesting news when it finally breaks.

Sounds like all types of deals are being worked on in the background, which is why this is slow to develop.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Another live chat quote:




> Comment From Guest  
> You've hinted that we could see an announcement by the end of March, that it involves the Stage Center site, and that the company involved could be a surprise. Have you seen the name of this company in either your chat or on OKC Talk? Can you confirm if this would be a North American or Corporate HQ?
> 
> 11:05
> Steve Lackmeyer: No.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Via live chat:




> 11:07
> Comment From Nick  
> There are lots of rumors on OKCTalk regarding Shell. Lots of interesting tidbits about Shell having sold their Houston headquarters and owning a lot of acreage here in Oklahoma. Is something brewing with Shell?
> 
> 11:09
> Steve Lackmeyer: OKC Talk is a great site, a wonderful community forum. What you read there is a mix of links to news stories by The Oklahoman and other news organizations, items dug up by the site's owner, and then a lot of rumors that may or may not be true. And then there are the conversations involving cranky weird people (and a lot of fun, smart folks who make up 95 percent of its membership!)
> 
> 11:13
> Comment From Nick  
> ...


*drumroll*




> Comment From Nick  
> haha, but you're sadistic Steve. So tell us something!
> 
> 11:25
> Steve Lackmeyer: Taco Mayo is building a 60-story headquarters that will be shaped like a taco and will have an elaborate courtyard with fountains flowing with mild salsa sauce.

----------


## jedicurt

i'm putting myself in the cranky weird people category!

----------


## HangryHippo

So, do you all think OG&E is looking further north for their new digs?  And surely CLR will have to do something.  They're growing so fast.

----------


## Steve

Pete is a smart man.

----------


## Praedura

> Now, the word is that it is NOT Continental (or OG&E) that is in the process of trying to work a deal on the Stage Center site, but a third company...
> 
> Still hoping for CLR & OG&E but if/when they build, it's not going to be at Stage Center.
> 
> Have no idea who this new company is, so this will be very, very interesting news when it finally breaks.
> 
> Sounds like all types of deals are being worked on in the background, which is why this is slow to develop.


Wow. I really thought Continental was going for the Stage Center site. It just seemed so perfect.

I hope this doesn't mean Continental doesn't have plans for a downtown tower.

I also hope that this mystery company that is apparently going to gobble up the Stage Center site is actually interested in building a tower and not some 3-story office complex or something like that.

The plot thickens...

----------


## Praedura

> 11:25
> Steve Lackmeyer: Taco Mayo is building a 60-story headquarters that will be shaped like a taco and will have an elaborate courtyard with fountains flowing with mild salsa sauce.


I knew it!

Hey wait a minute... didn't their original proposal call for hot salsa in the fountains? Now it's down to mild?
Another bait and switch!

----------


## plmccordj

> I knew it!
> 
> Hey wait a minute... didn't their original proposal call for hot salsa in the fountains? Now it's down to mild?
> Another bait and switch!


The worst part is that they've announced that they are putting their data center somewhere else, making it only 59 stories!  The INJUSTICE!!!!!

----------


## kevinpate

_



			
				11:25
			
		

_


> _Steve Lackmeyer: Taco Mayo is building a 60-story headquarters that will be shaped like a taco and will have an elaborate courtyard with fountains flowing with mild salsa sauce._


_

Best laugh of the day._

----------


## Anonymous.

This is just something I have put together myself, this is not from a credited source other than me, but I have been putting some things together.

Linn Energy relocated to Houston in 2006 with about 200 employees, and has grown to 800+ since then [out of space]. Linn Energy announced this week that they have acquired the company known as Berry Petroleum, located in Denver CO that has 300+ employees. 

Linn currently leases space in primarily the JPMorgan Chase Tower in Houston. 

This is from September last year (2012):
_The 75-story tower, Houstons tallest office building, is now more than 96 percent leased. The increase in occupancy is in large part due to the towers most rapidly growing tenant, Linn Energy , which recently signed a lease expansion for 58,944 square feet, bringing their total leased space in the tower to approximately 175,000 square feet. Their initial lease seven years ago was for 3,044 square feet._


Perhaps there is a chance Linn Energy is trying to move somewhere centrally for all their growth and new acquirement of employees?

----------


## Praedura

> 11:25
> Steve Lackmeyer: Taco Mayo is building a 60-story headquarters that will be shaped like a taco and will have an elaborate courtyard with fountains flowing with mild salsa sauce.





> _
> 
> Best laugh of the day._


I would love to see the renderings!
 :Wink:

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Listening to the webinar and the speaker said something about them wanting to bring in an out of state company but it was brief and didn't catch it all.

https://www2.gotomeeting.com/register/409179050

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The worst part is that they've announced that they are putting their data center somewhere else, making it only 59 stories!  The INJUSTICE!!!!!


WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!? REALLY AGAIN, We had ANOTHER chance for a super tall, and now we never see anything. 2 Chances and we blew it! Makes me so mad!!!! lol jk..  :Wink:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I would love to see the renderings!


If I had my Macbook with me, I'd hope on photoshop and put a giant taco into our skyline. Unfortunately I don't and won't for another week. But, if someone else is up to it.  :Big Grin:  lol

----------


## metro

> This is just something I have put together myself, this is not from a credited source other than me, but I have been putting some things together.
> 
> Linn Energy relocated to Houston in 2006 with about 200 employees, and has grown to 800+ since then [out of space]. Linn Energy announced this week that they have acquired the company known as Berry Petroleum, located in Denver CO that has 300+ employees. 
> 
> Linn currently leases space in primarily the JPMorgan Chase Tower in Houston. 
> 
> This is from September last year (2012):
> _The 75-story tower, Houston’s tallest office building, is now more than 96 percent leased. The increase in occupancy is in large part due to the tower’s most rapidly growing tenant, Linn Energy , which recently signed a lease expansion for 58,944 square feet, bringing their total leased space in the tower to approximately 175,000 square feet. Their initial lease seven years ago was for 3,044 square feet._
> 
> ...


Doesn't Lynn/Linn Energy lease space in the building in the Quail Springs Executive Park, just west of May? They have their sign up on the very angular building, just behind Mahogany Steakhouse and the hotel there.

----------


## sroberts24

> Doesn't Lynn/Linn Energy lease space in the building in the Quail Springs Executive Park, just west of May? They have their sign up on the very angular building, just behind Mahogany Steakhouse and the hotel there.


Yes they do, I have a close family friend that works for them at the OKC site.

----------


## BDP

> Taco Mayo is building a 60-story headquarters that will be shaped like a taco and will have an elaborate courtyard with fountains flowing with mild salsa sauce.


Great. More OKCTalk rumors.




> Steve, why do developers maintain such secrecy about their projects?


So the weird and cranky people don't talk about them.

----------


## BDP

> A councilman recently (and jokingly) accused me of being "sadistic" and teasing readers with just tidbits about the tower.


At least your tidbits are teasers from someone's friend's uncle who works for a company that sells stuff to a company that wants to build a supertall in OKC.

----------


## fromdust

I don't think I've ever thrown out a guess on this thread. So, for the out of state company I'm going with Cimarex.

----------


## MikeLucky

Hey now... I'm not weird OR cranky...  If you don't believe me, just ask my Mom.

As to the topic, this is some really good stuff guys...  The thread slowed down a bit for a while, but made up a lot of ground today.

----------


## adaniel

> I don't think I've ever thrown out a guess on this thread. So, for the out of state company I'm going with Cimarex.


They've already built a building in Tulsa and are moving into it next month. I know at one point they were considering OKC or consolidating their operations in Denver a few years back, but they seem happy with Tulsa for now.

----------


## OKCRT

> They've already built a building in Tulsa and are moving into it next month. I know at one point they were considering OKC or consolidating their operations in Denver a few years back, but they seem happy with Tulsa for now.


Don't why any growing co. would build in Tulsa when they have a chance to build in a growing metropolis like OKC. They must be out of their minds!

Shell

----------


## bchris02

> My prediction is Shell buys Sandridge and builds another tower nearby.


That would be a best-case scenario.  I hope if Sandridge or CHK get purchased, whatever company is the buyer expands OKC presence rather than moves jobs elsewhere.

----------


## DowntownMan

> Via today's live business chat from Steve Lackmeyer:


I honestly hoped CLR was the company behind Stage Center...they could still be...they HAVE TO be looking for somewhere to build...It will be close to their year of reaching their production goal by the time one would be done meaning they would have at least double the employees they have now i would think

----------


## HOT ROD

Im actually glad it's not CLR at Stage because that gives us the very real chance of having more than one tower pop up (rather than the sure one from CLR). ...

More IS Better!

----------


## DowntownMan

Makes me wonder if considering the relationship of devon and clr that maybe they will sell the preftakes area to clr for their site and still have room there for their own 2nd tower. possibly??

----------


## hoya

The area behind the Preftakes buildings, where the old bus station is and the Lunch Box, has ample room for a tower.  It would be right across the street from Stage Center.

----------


## catch22

I'm entering the "wait and see" mode. Tired of speculating (it is fun, but ready for something concrete)

One of these days...

----------


## SoonerBoy18

Austin is taking jobs from us, i hate hearing about the developments going on down there

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Austin is taking jobs from us, i hate hearing about the developments going on down there


How are they taking jobs from us exactly? 

I love hearing of the things going on in Austin, they're a good "example" city for us.

----------


## ljbab728

> How are they taking jobs from us exactly? 
> 
> I love hearing of the things going on in Austin, they're a good "example" city for us.


I agree, I've not heard of any jobs that Austin is taking from us.

----------


## lasomeday

> This is just something I have put together myself, this is not from a credited source other than me, but I have been putting some things together.
> 
> Linn Energy relocated to Houston in 2006 with about 200 employees, and has grown to 800+ since then [out of space]. Linn Energy announced this week that they have acquired the company known as Berry Petroleum, located in Denver CO that has 300+ employees. 
> 
> Linn currently leases space in primarily the JPMorgan Chase Tower in Houston. 
> 
> This is from September last year (2012):
> _The 75-story tower, Houstons tallest office building, is now more than 96 percent leased. The increase in occupancy is in large part due to the towers most rapidly growing tenant, Linn Energy , which recently signed a lease expansion for 58,944 square feet, bringing their total leased space in the tower to approximately 175,000 square feet. Their initial lease seven years ago was for 3,044 square feet._
> 
> ...


ITS NOT LINN ENERGY!  They bought out the Mid-Continent assets of Dominion Exploratoin and Production, which had all of the mid-continent offices here on Memorial.  They have slowly been more and more of those employees to Houston.  They just this last week moved some more to Houston.  So it is not them!  IT IS NOT LINN!

It is not SHELL and it is Not Exxon!  They are all focused on having offices in Houstons!  Now ConocoPhillips or Phillips66 are better chances of moving to OKC, but I don't think it is them either.

----------


## betts

I have a friend in the oil business and so I said to him today, "If I told you a new company was moving to town and looking for land downtown, what would be your guess?"  He immediately said "Shell. They've been sniffing around OKC."  

I would assuming having some of their operations based here would not preclude a major presence elsewhere.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I asked my dad who is a higher up at Gulfport (which does a lot of production in Canada, the Gulf and up in the Midwest, particularly Ohio) and he said he didn't know of any big oil companies.  But he's so busy, I doubt he really pays too much attention to it all OR he's playing dead so I won't spill the beans on here, lol.

----------


## Praedura

I'm concerned about Continental not bidding for Stage Center. It might mean that they simply don't intend to build a tower, right now anyway. They may be content with spreading their employees around the available office space downtown.

And since we don't know the company that is purchasing the Stage Center site, we don't know their plans for it either. May not be a tower at all.

Color me worried.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I'm concerned about Continental not bidding for Stage Center. It might mean that they simply don't intend to build a tower, right now anyway. They may be content with spreading their employees around the available office space downtown.
> 
> And since we don't know the company that is purchasing the Stage Center site, we don't know their plans for it either. May not be a tower at all.
> 
> Color me worried.


Continental has barely been downtown for a year, Give them a break. It took Devon 20 years downtown to build a tower. Though the energy business is considerably different now, Devon was spread out all over downtown before building a tower and had considerably more employees than continental does now. Continental is rapidly growing, but I don't think we'll see  anything out of them for a year or so. Having said that, downtown office space is a lot tighter than it was 5 years ago so I don't know if being that spead out is even possible anymore. Though If something happened to sandridge, that would provide them a larger building to expand into. There are so many different variables right now that its kind of ridiculous to get that worried about it right now. Besides, Steve has said on multiple occasions that whoever is bidding on the stage center site intends to build a tower on it.

----------


## Praedura

> Continental has barely been downtown for a year, Give them a break.


I'm not jumping on Continental. They can do whatever they want. I'm just expressing concern about one tower that I thought would be built that now may not be.





> Besides, Steve has said on multiple occasions that whoever is bidding on the stage center site intends to build a tower on it.


Has he? I don't remember him ever saying that. I know that he has been saying that a new tower is in the works, and that Stage Center is one of the possible sites. But I don't recall him specifically saying that the Stage Center site buyer is for sure building a tower.

----------


## catch22

> Steve Lackmeyer 10:36 a.m. A whole half hour before anyone hit me with a tower question. You folks are getting slow to the draw. A councilman recently (and jokingly) accused me of being "sadistic" and teasing readers with just tidbits about the tower. I try to give you what I can, and I not intended to tease at all!
> So, all of you, who are great readers, who make OKC Central a great discussion, keep hitting me with new creative questions aimed at dragging more information from me.
> I'm going to stick with what I've said: a deal is being done, but it's not done yet. It will involve the Stage Center site. Other groups/companies are interested in building high-rises downtown beyond the one in the works for the Stage Center site. But I cannot say with certainty whether they will be built. We have too many moving pieces right now, and too much uncertainty involving Chesapeake Energy and SandRidge Energy.


From Steve's chat on Friday re: mystery tower

----------


## MDot

Sometimes it's best to just take a chill pill and study the information to verify if what you believe is true is indeed true, Praedura.  :Wink:

----------


## Praedura

> From Steve's chat on Friday re: mystery tower


Thanks. I think last Friday's chat was one of the few that I actually hadn't read yet. In any event, I've read so much speculation on this (and other projects) that it's all a swirl in my head.

Well, that's good news!

----------


## Praedura

39 days, 18 hours, 49 minutes.....

Generic Calendar/Clock - Countdown to Apr 5, 2013 9:04 AM in Oklahoma City

 :Wink:

----------


## kbsooner

> Sinopec.


Sinopec to Buy Chesapeake Energy Assets for $1.02 Billion - Bloomberg

----------


## Just the facts

You know what is funny, the pro-drill baby drill people think increasing US production will get us off foriegn oil and drive prices down here in the US but increasingly the people who will actually be doing the drilling are Chineese companies and they are going to send the oil to China.




> Chinese companies are seeking energy assets globally to lock in supplies for the world’s fastest growing major economy and learn how to access technology to retrieve fuel trapped in rocks that has driven U.S. oil production to the highest in almost 21 years.

----------


## SharkSandwich

Sinopec is not operating the Miss plays with Devon or CHK.  They do not need a lot of physical support staff in OKC.  I believe they only have about 5-10 people in OKC supporting the Devon JV.

----------


## plmccordj

deleted by me.

----------


## Urbanized

If you read between the lines, Aubrey's "philosophical differences" with the reconstituted board may very well have been over then-formulating moves like this, with others yet to play out. It totally fits the script. Ironic that CHK shares took it in the shorts on an asset sale by the "new and improved" board.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> You know what is funny, the pro-drill baby drill people think increasing US production will get us off foriegn oil and drive prices down here in the US but increasingly the people who will actually be doing the drilling are Chineese companies and they are going to send the oil to China.


FYI, these are investment JV transactions. The foreign companies as of right now are not drilling or opperating anything nor are they exporting oil to china etc. They are financing CHK's operations and profiting from the sale of the product domestically, that is the intent. It's not any different than if Conoco decided to buy into 50% of CHK's miss play. Its a 50% working interest across the play. In reality it might actually help drop the price by bringing more oil to the market, doubt it though as oil is a globally traded commodity. Some speculate that international companies are buying in so that they can learn how to expoit these types of reservoirs from American companies that has the technology and knowledge of how to do so, then bring it back to their countries.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> If you read between the lines, Aubrey's "philosophical differences" with the reconstituted board may very well have been over then-formulating moves like this, with others yet to play out. It totally fits the script. Ironic that CHK shares took it in the shorts on an asset sale by the "new and improved" board.


Aubrey was doing deals like this years prior to the board shake up and his resignation.

----------


## Just the facts

> FYI, these are investment JV transactions. The foreign companies as of right now are not drilling or opperating anything nor are they exporting oil to china etc. They are financing CHK's operations and profiting from the sale of the product domestically, that is the intent. It's not any different than if Conoco decided to buy into 50% of CHK's miss play. Its a 50% working interest across the play. In reality it might actually help drop the price by bringing more oil to the market, doubt it though as oil is a globally traded commodity. Some speculate that international companies are buying in so that they can learn how to expoit these types of reservoirs from American companies that has the technology and knowledge of how to do so, then bring it back to their countries.


I only know what I read:

Chesapeake Deal Values Oklahoma Oilfield Below Estimate - Bloomberg




> Chinese companies are seeking energy assets globally to lock in supplies for the world’s fastest growing major economy


That sounds to me like they want lock in the supplies to use in the world's fastest growing major economy - China.


Anyhow, this might be better suited to the Chesapeke Business Parctice thread.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I only know what I read:
> 
> Chesapeake Deal Values Oklahoma Oilfield Below Estimate - Bloomberg
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds to me like they want lock in the supplies to use in the world's fastest growing major economy - China.
> 
> 
> Anyhow, this might be better suited to the Chesapeke Business Parctice thread.


From your article, this means they will not operate:

"Sinopec, as China’s second-largest energy producer is known, will pay $1.02 billion in cash for a *50 percent interest in 850,000 acres Chesapeake* controls in the Mississippi Lime formation, the companies announced in separate statements." 

As does this from the newsok article: 

"Sinopec will buy an interest in half of Chesapeake's 850,000 net acres in the oil-rich Mississippi Lime, then share future exploration and development costs in the play."

Your quote put in context:

"Chinese companies may pursue more U.S. energy acquisitions after Cnooc Ltd. (883), a unit of China’s largest offshore oil producer, this month won approval from the U.S. Committee on Foreign Investment to buy Nexen Inc. (NXY) for $15.1 billion. Chinese companies are seeking energy assets globally to lock in supplies for the world’s fastest growing major economy and learn how to access technology that has driven U.S. oil production to the highest in almost 21 years. 

*“While Chesapeake has many quality assets, Chinese oil companies care more about their drilling and shale-fracking technology,” Laban Yu, a Hong Kong-based analyst at Jefferies Group Inc. (JEF), said in a telephone interview. “The reason Chinese oil companies have gone after Chesapeake in the past year was also because they wanted to apply the technology to tap the world’s No. 1 shale gas reserves in China.”* "

CHK's deal is not the same as CNOOC purchasing an operating company. In CNOOC/Nexan's case, I'm not really sure why the US Foreign Investment Committee had to approve anything as Nexan is a Canadian Company developing Canadian Assets. They have no onshore operated US assets. Regardless it would seem that if CNOOC was locking up anything for export, it's in Canada, which we knew was a possiblity after seeing Canada's reaction to all the issues surrounding the Keystone Pipeline getting approved. I haven't seen anything in any of these JV deals that seems to indicate that we are exporting oil oversees. Even Royal Dutch Shell, BP, and Statoil are not exporting anything from Onshore North American assets and they all do have operations on US soil. Natural gas though may be another story eventually.

----------


## jedicurt

> From your article, this means they will not operate:
> 
> "Sinopec, as China’s second-largest energy producer is known, will pay $1.02 billion in cash for a *50 percent interest in 850,000 acres Chesapeake* controls in the Mississippi Lime formation, the companies announced in separate statements." 
> 
> As does this from the newsok article: 
> 
> "Sinopec will buy an interest in half of Chesapeake's 850,000 net acres in the oil-rich Mississippi Lime, then share future exploration and development costs in the play."


anybody else read both of these statements and get two completely different answers?

i read the first and it tells me that they purchased 50% interest in 850,000 acres

when i read the newsok article, i read that they purchased an unreleased % of interest in 425,000 acres


Am i wrong in reading it that way?

----------


## tillyato

> anybody else read both of these statements and get two completely different answers?
> 
> i read the first and it tells me that they purchased 50% interest in 850,000 acres
> 
> when i read the newsok article, i read that they purchased an unreleased % of interest in 425,000 acres
> 
> 
> Am i wrong in reading it that way?


I just re-read the NEWSOK article, I didn't see anything about an unreleased % of interest in 425,000 acres, it just discusses a half-interest in 850,000 acres. Maybe they had it wrong and have since updated the article...

----------


## OKCSteel

Not to turn this political but there is no way our government should allow our energy resources to be sold to China or any other foreign entity. China has publically stated they want to be the world power and destroy the US. I am not typically for regulation but to me, this will jeopardize our national defense.

----------


## tillyato

> Not to turn this political but there is no way our government should allow our energy resources to be sold to China *or any other foreign entity*. China has publically stated they want to be the world power and destroy the US. I am not typically for regulation but to me, this will jeopardize our national defense.


This goes against our current economic policy (advocated by both mainstream republicans and democrats), and would require us to rescind numerous free trade agreements the U.S. has already signed. If other countries took that kind of protectionist stance with us, we would be in a much worse position that we are now, looking at $8-12/gallon gas without imports we bring into the country every day. As it is, the U.S. is set to be a net exporter or oil and gas within the next 15-20 years. If we already have enough for our own uses, why shouldn't we export the remainder? If nothing else, energy exports could be HUGE for our local economy in the next 20 years.

Sorry, for the thread-jacking, back to the Mystery Tower...

----------


## PhiAlpha

Jeez everyone quit freaking out, re-read my post... no one is exporting oil to the chinese.

----------


## Urbanized

> Aubrey was doing deals like this years prior to the board shake up and his resignation.


He was usually in asset acquisition mode. They got bludgeoned on this deal, just for the sake of cashing out. That is the course charted by the new influence on the company; that is...unload at all costs to right the ship.

----------


## jedicurt

> Jeez everyone quit freaking out, re-read my post... no one is exporting oil to the chinese.


the Russians are exporting a lot of oil to the Chinese...

----------


## PhiAlpha

> the Russians are exporting a lot of oil to the Chinese...


Touch

----------


## OKCRT

The red army and the ruskies are buddies. That's all.

I still want Shell to build a 50 story tower in OKC.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Stage Center - OKCTalk

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The red army and the ruskies are buddies. That's all.
> 
> *I still want Shell to build a 50 story tower in OKC*.


Is there anyone who doesn't? lol  :Wink:

----------


## bchris02

> Stage Center - OKCTalk


Anything involving the Stage Center site is going to be a fight, even if its a 50 story tower.  This is one reason I agree with Steve that any transaction involving the Stage Center should not be public until the tower is proposed and the renderings are complete.  Whoever wants to redevelop the site must present something that will in essence be worth losing the Stage Center for.  Even then, it will still probably be a fight.

----------


## Rover

Hefner was helping the Chinese deep drilling program decades ago.  They have been buying technology and know how a very long time.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Anything involving the Stage Center site is going to be a fight, even if its a 50 story tower.  This is one reason I agree with Steve that any transaction involving the Stage Center should not be public until the tower is proposed and the renderings are complete.  Whoever wants to redevelop the site must present something that will in essence be worth losing the Stage Center for.  Even then, it will still probably be a fight.


there will be much less fight then you think ...

----------


## Bellaboo

I know the numbers do not favor it, but i'm starting to wonder if the SC site will be a spec building ? Especially with class A at a premium.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Whoever wants to redevelop the site must present something that will in essence be worth losing the Stage Center for.


Yeah, like a 2 story McDonalds.

----------


## Just the facts

> Yeah, like a 2 story McDonalds.


If it looks like one of these I'll take it.

----------


## BDP

> If it looks like one of these I'll take it.


Yeah, but you only get stuff like that when you don't tear anything down and land to build cheap new junk becomes scarce. If you remember the Sandridge battle, downtown leaders said we were "generations away" from that being feasible.

----------


## Just the facts

Yes - and Stage Center IS that junk.  Anyhow, that will be my only comment about the Stage Center structure so we don't get off topic  :Smile: .

----------


## pickles

> there will be much less fight then you think ...


You're correct.

----------


## bchris02

> Yeah, like a 2 story McDonalds.


I would be against destroying the Stage Center for a fast food chain. Little Rock recently destroyed a low-rise office tower to put in a Chipotle Mexican Grill which I thought was incredibly stupid.

----------


## Mr. Cotter

That is stupid.  This is the building: 100 S. University Ave. Little rock, Arkansas - Google Maps 

A 98% occupied five story office building being leveled for a Chopotle.  Way to go, Little Rock.

----------


## plmccordj

One question... Who owns the building? If it is the owner that wants to destroy the building then it is no one's business if he or she wants to tear it down.  This whole line of thinking is right out of the Soviet Union.  Who are you to say what another person does with THEIR OWN property?  If yo don't want a building destroyed then make an offer, buy it and save it.  Despite this Communist way of thinking, you have zero right to another person's property.  If Sandridge owns 10 buildings around their big one, it is their property and no one should have ANY say whatsoever on whether it gets saved or not.  This whole topic just pisses me off.  There is a reason that most Conservatives label liberals, Progressives, Socialists etc as Communists. (Yes! I know the difference)  They all are rooted in this twisted collectivist mentality that makes them think they (community) has authority over individual rights. If the owner of the building wants to tear their building down and put in a shoe shine place, as long as it falls within zoning laws, it is their property.

----------


## plmccordj

Sid,

Obviously you misse the entire point. I guess I will troll elsewhere. I'll let you go back to your tree hugging dope smoking, confiscation of other people's property.

This is BS!

----------


## Just the facts

I think you answered your own question




> One question... Who owns the building? If it is the owner that wants to destroy the building then it is no one's business if he or she wants to tear it down.  This whole line of thinking is right out of the Soviet Union.  Who are you to say what another person does with THEIR OWN property?
> 
> ...
> 
> They all are rooted in this twisted collectivist mentality that makes them think they (community) has authority over individual rights. If the owner of the building wants to tear their building down and put in a shoe shine place, as long as it *falls within zoning laws*, it is their property.


Also, thanks to property tax laws a pretty good case could be made that no one actually owns property anyhow; they only lease it from their local government, and since the local government is all of us....  Alas, I don't think anyone was saying it should have been against the law, just that it was a shame it happened.

----------


## hoya

> One question... Who owns the building? If it is the owner that wants to destroy the building then it is no one's business if he or she wants to tear it down.  This whole line of thinking is right out of the Soviet Union.  Who are you to say what another person does with THEIR OWN property?  If yo don't want a building destroyed then make an offer, buy it and save it.  Despite this Communist way of thinking, you have zero right to another person's property.  If Sandridge owns 10 buildings around their big one, it is their property and no one should have ANY say whatsoever on whether it gets saved or not.  This whole topic just pisses me off.  There is a reason that most Conservatives label liberals, Progressives, Socialists etc as Communists. (Yes! I know the difference)  They all are rooted in this twisted collectivist mentality that makes them think they (community) has authority over individual rights. If the owner of the building wants to tear their building down and put in a shoe shine place, as long as it falls within zoning laws, it is their property.


Zoning laws?  Freaking communist.  Why don't you take your winter storms back to Sovetskii-stan, Ivan!

If I want to build a strip club across the street from a high school, I'll do it.  It's my property.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> If the owner of the building wants to tear their building down and put in a shoe shine place, *as long as it falls within zoning laws,* it is their property.


Hold it right there. If the property owner's rights are to be unrestricted, then you can't have zoning laws either -- and in that case, if I want to start a dairy farm right next to your high-dollar residence, all I need do is buy out your neighbor and move the cattle in. If you can't stand the smell, then you're free to move elsewhere -- but I can follow you there if I want.

Can't have it both ways!

----------


## metro

good point comrades! carry on. oy vey!

----------


## MikeLucky

I like russian women...


That's all I got...  the troll/noob was dispensed with quite effectively already.  lol

----------


## jedicurt

> I like russian women...


As do i.... and also their Vodka.  Now if only those darn laws would let me build my own still in my house so that i could make my own vodka.   How dare they care if i burn down my house, and endanger the lives of my neighbors... If i wanted to live like this, i would have voted for Mao Zedong back in November!

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I would be against destroying the Stage Center for a fast food chain.


Even Chic-Fil-A?

----------


## MikeLucky

> Even Chic-Fil-A?


They should make it a triple decker - Chick-Fil-A, Krispy Kreme, In-and-Out Burger.  The traffic line would extend continuously to Albuquerque... except on Sundays....

----------


## Zack232

We need the tower announcement soon. This thread is becoming crazy.

----------


## AP

The Triple Decker Heart Stopper is the announcement. It will fit in nicely in this city.

----------


## bchris02

> I think you answered your own question
> 
> 
> 
> Also, thanks to property tax laws a pretty good case could be made that no one actually owns property anyhow; they only lease it from their local government, and since the local government is all of us....  Alas, I don't think anyone was saying it should have been against the law, just that it was a shame it happened.


I agree. What Little Rock did should not have been legally stopped. It was however a shame and so stupid it's almost laughable. I can't imagine that property will be more of a cash generator for the owner as a Chipotle than it was as an office building.

Little Rock also destroyed a historic theater downtown recently to put in a parking lot. Shouldn't be illegal but it was a huge shame and major loss. Little Rock doesn't have the community pride that OKC does so there is little to stand in the way of situations like these. If it were OKC there would have been enough people who would have rallied together to stop the destruction of that theater and instead have it revitalized.

----------


## Bellaboo

One thing we've nailed down the past few weeks is the Stage Center site IS the location for the mystery tower.

----------


## Pete

> One thing we've nailed down the past few weeks is the Stage Center site IS the location for the mystery tower.


True!

Or at least, the first of what could be several (Continental, OG&E, Devon and an unnamed company).

----------


## tillyato

> One thing we've nailed down the past few weeks is the Stage Center site IS the location for the mystery tower.


And a time frame for an announcement. Steve has indicated on several occasions that, assuming everything goes according to plan, we should have some sort of public announcement by early April.

----------


## Pete

Yes, here is everything somewhat pieced together:

1. A yet-to-be-named company (not Continental, OG&E or Devon) is working on plans to build a new tower on the Stage Center site.  The foundation that owns that site has fielded several offers and is the process of deciding to whom it will sell.  Sounds like that decision will be made sometime around April and we can expect to see renderings at that time.

2. OG&E is still actively looking downtown for a site for a new building HQ.  They have employed a national firm to help in their site selection.  From all indications they may end up somewhere along Hudson north of the OKC Museum of Art.

3. Continental is going to do something but isn't quite ready.  They were interested in the Stage Center site but the timing isn't right.  However, they are already leasing space in Chase Tower and if their current growth projections hold, they will need much more space soon.

4. Devon still controls almost the entire block (the 'Preftakes Block') west of their existing complex.  They are still leasing space in other buildings and are in the process of consolidating a bunch of employees from Houston.  They will need more space and you can expect them to eventually build on that block.

5. The proposed SandRidge building to the immediate east of their existing tower is very much up in the air as is the control of their business.  An almost inevitable shakeup of their board and possibly the ouster of Tom Ward would almost certainly have a negative impact on any more downtown development.

6. There is still a strong push for a convention hotel near the CHK Arena and the proposed CC.

----------


## Grant

If a tower is built on the stage center site, I hope its footprint is urban and pedestrian friendly. A successful development here would echo the buildings surrounding New York's Central Park.






> They should make it a triple decker - Chick-Fil-A, Krispy Kreme, In-and-Out Burger.  The traffic line would extend continuously to Albuquerque... except on Sundays....

----------


## DowntownMan

Where is everyone getting the information that CLR has space in Chase tower?? I havent seen or heard anything about that...and Im not sure they do.

----------


## Pete

IIRC some posters who work in Chase have said that CLR is renting space there.

----------


## Grant

Harold Hamm's investment group rents (rented?) space in Chase Tower. This may be what people are referring to. I'm not so sure Continental itself has employees anywhere but their tower.

----------


## soonerguru

> One question... Who owns the building? If it is the owner that wants to destroy the building then it is no one's business if he or she wants to tear it down.  This whole line of thinking is right out of the Soviet Union.  Who are you to say what another person does with THEIR OWN property?  If yo don't want a building destroyed then make an offer, buy it and save it.  Despite this Communist way of thinking, you have zero right to another person's property.  If Sandridge owns 10 buildings around their big one, it is their property and no one should have ANY say whatsoever on whether it gets saved or not.  This whole topic just pisses me off.  There is a reason that most Conservatives label liberals, Progressives, Socialists etc as Communists. (Yes! I know the difference)  They all are rooted in this twisted collectivist mentality that makes them think they (community) has authority over individual rights. If the owner of the building wants to tear their building down and put in a shoe shine place, as long as it falls within zoning laws, it is their property.


You seem angry -- and clueless about land use rights. Not a good combination.

Something tells me you would NOT be cool if I bought up all the houses on your street, razed them, and opened strip bars in their place. Just a hunch.
.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Something tells me you would NOT be cool if I bought up all the houses on your street, razed them, and opened strip bars in their place. Just a hunch.
> .


I have a feeling that a few strip bars on his street is what he needs. He seems quite upset & perhaps needs a "breather" from the stress of no one taking his trolling seriously.

----------


## DowntownMan

I think that space in chase tower might just be the old Devon Mail room in the basement of chase tower. I saw some continental people there a few weeks back.

----------


## s00nr1

Wow, I go out of town for a week and come back to this mess.

----------


## trousers

Here's another name for the rumor mill, ConocoPhillips.

----------


## trousers

> Pics or it didn't happen. 
> 
> That name has been tossed around several times.  Why are you tossing it again?  New news?


I'll say just say it was very drunken, unreliable source  :Tongue:   but still no less credible then a lot of the other rumors on here.

----------


## Spartan

> Now, the word is that it is NOT Continental (or OG&E) that is in the process of trying to work a deal on the Stage Center site, but a third company...
> 
> Still hoping for CLR & OG&E but if/when they build, it's not going to be at Stage Center.
> 
> Have no idea who this new company is, so this will be very, very interesting news when it finally breaks.
> 
> Sounds like all types of deals are being worked on in the background, which is why this is slow to develop.


Wow.

----------


## lasomeday

Hmmmm.....

Was it just me or did Steve mention a developer proposing a new development with 1,000+ apartments overwhelming the market???  Maybe its not a company but a mixed use high rise with retail on the bottom and 40 stories of condos/apartments?  How awesome would that be?  I would definitely look at moving there!

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Not to turn this political but there is no way our government should allow our energy resources to be sold to China or any other foreign entity. China has publically stated they want to be the world power and destroy the US. I am not typically for regulation but to me, this will jeopardize our national defense.


FYI to the prior conversation a few pages back with everyone freaking out about exportig oil to china, etc... This article supports what I was trying to say. Hate to stray from the topic again but at one point it was relavent.

Wilmoth: Foreign partnerships benefit domestic energy companies | NewsOK.com

----------


## Just the facts

> Hmmmm.....
> 
> Was it just me or did Steve mention a developer proposing a new development with 1,000+ apartments overwhelming the market???  Maybe its not a company but a mixed use high rise with retail on the bottom and 40 stories of condos/apartments?  How awesome would that be?  I would definitely look at moving there!


With Steve you have to sometimes put things together and follow clues but I read what you read - a single development with 1000 units.  That would be the equivalent of two Deep Deuces.  A development like that would take 5 or more years to finish and there is no way 1,000 units could all open on the same day.  If they were all tower units that would be around 5 highrises.

----------


## tillyato

Hopefully Steve gives some more clues about the Mystery Tower in today's chat, or at least some more teasers...

----------


## DoctorTaco

> Hopefully Steve gives some more clues about the Mystery Tower in today's chat, or at least some more teasers...


Give the man his 45 days for goodness sakes! We're killing him!

----------


## Praedura

> Give the man his *45 days* for goodness sakes! We're killing him!


Actually, it's 34 days, 23 hours, 38 minutes...

Generic Calendar/Clock - Countdown to Apr 5, 2013 9:04 AM in Oklahoma City

 :Smile:

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Steve's Blog:




> You know the routine; you can begin logging in with questions and comments on the Business page at NewsOK at 9:30 a.m., the chat begins at 10 a.m., and *somewhere in the first 30 minutes, someone will ask again about the mystery tower*…. - See more at: OKC Central Live Chat 10 a.m. Today | OKC Central

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Will you be handling the updates today Sid? It's a pain on an iPad.

----------


## Just the facts

Good stuff Sid.  I guess we will know in 30 days or so.

----------


## Pete

> "You keep referring to Stage Center as "the mystery tower site." How do you know it's not just "one of the mystery tower sites"?" - Steve Lackmeyer


I believe the Stage Center site will be the first new tower development to be announced; probably in the next 2-3 months.

But as stated elsewhere, there are clearly other projects in the works.

----------


## HangryHippo

Wow, there's a lot of butthurt in the Houston thread over OKC.  They don't seem to want to admit that there big companies were mostly taken from Oklahoma.

I wish we could have kept them here in the first place though.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Ha...




> There is a lot of wishful (delusional) thinking on that board about companies moving to OKC and building new skyscrapers in downtown OKC.  There have been similarly fact-challenged "rumors" in that same thread about ConocoPhillips moving its HQ to OKC and Phillips 66 moving its HQ to OKC and BHP Billiton movings its North American HQ to OKC and the latest was Linn Energy (which very recently expanded its HQ lease in downtown Houston). Cemex was another one.  The thread is fed by a hyper-cheerleading business reporter for the local paper.

----------


## s00nr1

That was good for a laugh or two.




> Why not?  Question about Shell NA Headquarters - Downtown - HAIF - Houston's Leading News Forum

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Not wanting to go off topic but huge, sprawling, traffic-choked cities like Houston are full to the brim with people like that and the reason I would never live in such cities. The hilarious thing is that some Tulsans think the exact same way about OKC yet they are an even smaller city. 

Ok back on topic.

----------


## bchris02

> Wow, there's a lot of butthurt in the Houston thread over OKC.  They don't seem to want to admit that there big companies were mostly taken from Oklahoma.
> 
> I wish we could have kept them here in the first place though.


I agree with some of the posters on that forum that Houston's size and talent base dwarfs that of OKC. Last time I was in Houston I thought to myself "compared to this, OKC is a small town." I disagree with them that its all delusional thinking though. We have concrete evidence something is in the works and it isn't just a wish. I really like Houston but they also have an advantage due to their size and economic diversity to absorb the loss of a corporate HQ while OKC's gain would be monumental.

----------


## Pete

Houston is the 4th largest city in the U.S. and the city and MSA are about 4-5 times the size of OKC.

So, they are worlds apart but I would also say that Houston has tons of problems (traffic, polution and sprawl being chief among them) and thus I could see why companies might prefer the easy lifestyle offered by Oklahoma City.

Houston is one of my least favorite cities...  It's got all the problems of L.A. and almost none of the benefits.  I know I'm biased, but I would much, much rather live in OKC and I'm sure I am not alone.

----------


## Bellaboo

We should have guessed - Steve says March will more than likely be the revealing month (30 days).......such as was for Devon and the relocation announcement for CLR.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I agree with some of the posters on that forum that Houston's size and talent base dwarfs that of OKC.


There's no arguing this, but as the United States' 4th largest city, of course their size and talent base dwarfs us.  But it was funny that little ole' OKC might gain one of their big companies.  I emphasize might, but it would just irk them to no end.

----------


## HangryHippo

Double post

----------


## Bellaboo

This may be insignificent, but a couple things have changed in OKC's favor the last couple of years over Houston. One, the drilling has been slowed in the Gulf for reasons other than the deepwater rig explosion and pollution that followed, and the most significant is the fact that the Woodford shale is 400 feet thick, and very wet with oil. This is why I believe E&P offices will come into OKC more than ever.

----------


## Bellaboo

> There's no arguing this, but as the United States' 4th largest city, of course their size and talent base dwarfs us.  But it was funny that little ole' OKC might gain one of their big companies.  I emphasize might, but it would *just irk them to no end*.


It probably irked them when Devon closed up shop in Houston.

----------


## Praedura

> We should have guessed - Steve says March will more than likely be the revealing month (30 days).......such as was for Devon and the relocation announcement for CLR.


March madness!  :Smiley259:

----------


## Bellaboo

I would much rather put up with our temporamental winter weather than Houston's dreadful 3 months of horrible summers. It's like you'd have to change underware more than once daily down there.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I would much rather put up with our temporamental winter weather than Houston's dreadful 3 months of horrible summers. It's like you'd have to change underware more than once daily down there.


No kidding.  I personally love the cold so our winters don't bother me much, but the humidity in Houston is unrelenting.  What a horrible city.

----------


## Bellaboo

My step son has lived down there for 4 years now, and I can testify to their summer season humidity, among other things. Not to fool ourselves, there some great things about the place too.

----------


## GaryOKC6

I looked at the blog in question and they sound a little defensive.  I guess that is normal.  After all what would I expect them to say.....OKC is a great place to livve and by the way we may lose some of our corporate community to them!  They don't want to hear that in Houston.

----------


## Just the facts

> I would much rather put up with our temporamental winter weather than Houston's dreadful 3 months of horrible summers. *It's like you'd have to change underware more than once daily down there*.


And this just from the morning freeway commute.



Talk about 2 guys that don't get it.

----------


## Rover

Anybody have a link to today's chat archive?

----------


## Bellaboo

Boy, the traffic really sucks down there too, and no those guys don't get it. Houston added the camera system to catch 'red light' runners 2 years back. After less than a year, they removed them due to the increase in accidents involving 'rear-ending' when people would slam on their brakes not to get the ticket.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

There isn't one up yet.

----------


## catch22

> Anybody have a link to today's chat archive?


Usually they get it posted mid-afternoon.

----------


## Teo9969

> And this just from the morning freeway commute.
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about 2 guys that don't get it.


BAHAHAHA @ them saying "Light Rail is not the answer...it will never get used".

----------


## OKCbrew

Folks don't like it when their world view is challenged. A lot of people enjoy thinking OKC is a dusty little town with old guys on porches and spittoons and like to make sure we know it should stay that way. It's not something I really understand, I rather enjoy an ever changing view of the world, especially since it is an ever changing world. Likewise, this city is nothing like it was just a few years ago, and accepting that might require a bit of mental dexterity - even for some of our own Oklahomans. :P

----------


## Bellaboo

You have to keep in mind that most (but not all) Texans were brainwashed from birth that they are better by being bigger. They were butt hurt in 1958 when Alaska showed up, and it hurts so much when their football teams looses to any school from an inferior state. 
I have a good friend from the DFW area, who worked up here in the late '90's before marrying an Okie girl and moving back. He always had nothing good to say about OKC until they visited this past summer. He made comments how the downtown was very pretty, well done and quite impressive since he'd left 15 years ago.

I couldn't believe it.....he'd seen the light, that there is life outside of Texas.

----------


## bchris02

> I would much rather put up with our temporamental winter weather than Houston's dreadful 3 months of horrible summers. It's like you'd have to change underware more than once daily down there.


Personally I would rather put up with the brutal summers than the ever-present threat of an F5 tornado here during the spring months. That said, I agree with the poster above that Houston has all the problems of LA but few of the benefits. I like Houston, but can see why cities the size of OKC offers a better quality of life. The traffic is probably one of the worst downfalls of Houston. I-45 is a parking lot from downtown to the Woodlands. If you live in Houston there is a feeling of being trapped there due to how difficult it is to leave town with the traffic. Overall, Houston and OKC are completely different places with their own benefits and I could live in either.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Houston is not a bad city. I prefer OKC over it and of course you are going to have some people talk bad about OKC from there, but Houston is a massive city and last I heard it was expected to overtake Chicago pretty soon in terms of population. Texas is a very nice state and has some of the nicest freeways and cities I've seen so far. Houston's downtown is massive and has great projects going on. I like Houston a lot, however I agree with Pete that L.A. is better and if funds were not an issue I would choose L.A. over Houston, but this notion that Houston is a horrible awful city doesn't sit right with me. Houston is obviously doing something right as fast as it is growing. To each and their own. I'm sure there is thousand reasons not to like any city.

----------


## lasomeday

Corporate offices aren't going to leave Houston for OKC for three main reasons.

1. Corporate tax structure is better in Texas than in Oklahoma.
2. Direct international flights are more abundant in Houston and Dallas.
3. Most see the mass of companies as an advantage to attacting experienced employees.  (We are getting better at this one.)

The first one will take an act of congress!  OK not federal and the second probably will never happen, but with #1 changing it could help #2 as US companies would be inclined to move here.

----------


## OKCbrew

> Corporate offices aren't going to leave Houston for OKC for three main reasons.
> 
> 1. Corporate tax structure is better in Texas than in Oklahoma.
> 2. Direct international flights are more abundant in Houston and Dallas.
> 3. Most see the mass of companies as an advantage to attacting experienced employees.  (We are getting better at this one.)
> 
> The first one will take an act of congress!  OK not federal and the second probably will never happen, but with #1 changing it could help #2 as US companies would be inclined to move here.


Just out of curiosity, how is #1 changing? And what makes the tax structure in OK less attractive? I ask because I don't know. All I know is that in Sim City you lower the $$$ commercial tax to get tall buildings!  :Wink:

----------


## adaniel

> You have to keep in mind that most (but not all) Texans were brainwashed from birth that they are better by being bigger. They were butt hurt in 1958 when Alaska showed up, and it hurts so much when their football teams looses to any school from an inferior state. 
> I have a good friend from the DFW area, who worked up here in the late '90's before marrying an Okie girl and moving back. He always had nothing good to say about OKC until they visited this past summer. He made comments how the downtown was very pretty, well done and quite impressive since he'd left 15 years ago.
> 
> I couldn't believe it.....he'd seen the light, that there is life outside of Texas.


As a reformed Texan myself, this is so true its not even funny. I can't even tell you the crap I got when I decided to first attend OU, then stay in OKC after graduation. The arrogance some have down there is unreal. I remember a girl here who moved here from Amarillo and would not shut up about "Texas is so much better blah blah blah..." and I was like, "Um, need I remind you that you are from _Amarillo_"

Considering that Oklahoma is a net receiver of Texans now, I'm sure there has been plenty of exploding heads when people confront the reality that there is a world north of the Red River. 




> Personally I would rather put up with the brutal summers than the ever-present threat of an F5 tornado here during the spring months.


The vast majority of people in this state have never personally experienced a tornado, much less an F4/5 one. Now the hailstorms on the other hand.....

In addition to all that humidity, Houston can have some very frightening flash flooding, since its pretty much a concrete slab built on a swamp. I've experienced it myself. I would much rather worry about tornadoes than that.

----------


## cagoklahoma

I like Houston, but their downtown seems to experience similar problems with downtown OKC. After 5pm, it's a ghost town when compared to daytime. I took a picture of the downtown Macy's hours, 9:30-6:00 M-F, 9:30-5:30 Sat, & Closed on Sunday. It's all about the suburban life style in this part of the country. I will say to Houston's credit, with its flaws, at least it's not Dallas. Dallas has a "Trashy Texas" feel which is complete with the Dale Earnhardt "Gone to Race in a Better Place" collection dinnerware, where Houston doesn't and I appreciate that about Houston. Keep it classy Houston!

----------


## Skyline

> Actually, it's 34 days, 23 hours, 38 minutes...
> 
> Generic Calendar/Clock - Countdown to Apr 5, 2013 9:04 AM in Oklahoma City


How soon will Okctalk (Pete or someone else) have the real inside scoop to the "Mystery"?

----------


## Bellaboo

He actually said within the next '30 days', so the clock is a little late being April 5th.

----------


## bchris02

> I like Houston, but their downtown seems to experience similar problems with downtown OKC. After 5pm, it's a ghost town when compared to daytime. I took a picture of the downtown Macy's hours, 9:30-6:00 M-F, 9:30-5:30 Sat, & Closed on Sunday. It's all about the suburban life style in this part of the country. I will say to Houston's credit, with its flaws, at least it's not Dallas. Dallas has a "Trashy Texas" feel which is complete with the Dale Earnhardt "Gone to Race in a Better Place" collection dinnerware, where Houston doesn't and I appreciate that about Houston. Keep it classy Houston!


I too prefer Houston to DFW, though many would disagree with you that Houston is classier. Houston and Dallas within Texas has somewhat of an OKC/Tulsa relationship on a larger scale. Houston is considered the larger but more down to earth, working class city while Dallas is known to be white collar, pretentious, culturally superior. Both cities however are large enough and well-balanced enough there is little need to go to DFW if you live in Houston and vice versa.

I found uptown Houston to be more active than downtown. One has to remember Houston has several "downtowns" scattered throughout the city, most of which have skylines larger than OKC's CBD. In Houston, you don't have to be downtown to find dense, urban living.

----------


## Teo9969

> I too prefer Houston to DFW, though many would disagree with you that Houston is classier. Houston and Dallas within Texas has somewhat of an OKC/Tulsa relationship on a larger scale. Houston is considered the larger but more down to earth, working class city while Dallas is known to be white collar, pretentious, culturally superior. Both cities however are large enough and well-balanced enough there is little need to go to DFW if you live in Houston and vice versa.
> 
> I found uptown Houston to be more active than downtown. One has to remember Houston has several "downtowns" scattered throughout the city, most of which have skylines larger than OKC's CBD. In Houston, you don't have to be downtown to find dense, urban living.


Dallas may think they are culturally superior, but I have not seen that that is the case in the arts at all. I also think Houston's food is better.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Dallas may think they are culturally superior, but I have not seen that that is the case in the arts at all. I also think Houston's food is better.


This has been my experience as well.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Corporate offices aren't going to leave Houston for OKC for three main reasons.
> 
> 1. Corporate tax structure is better in Texas than in Oklahoma.
> 2. Direct international flights are more abundant in Houston and Dallas.
> 3. Most see the mass of companies as an advantage to attacting experienced employees.  (We are getting better at this one.)
> 
> The first one will take an act of congress!  OK not federal and the second probably will never happen, but with #1 changing it could help #2 as US companies would be inclined to move here.


Don't forget that since they don't have state income tax, that helps them also attract more employees...  That also hurts us in a comparison with any of the Texas metros...

My parents are currently selling their house in Wichita and getting ready to retire in the Houston area.  When they first told me they were considering it, I groaned...  But, for them it's a little different.  They are looking in the Woodlands/Conroe area, and it's a definite given that they MIGHT drive south of the Woodlands maybe once or twice a year.  Being retired, they will have everything they need within 5-10 miles of their house.  And, I guess my folks and I are strange people, because we all LOVE the heat and humidity.  Everytime we go down there for a weekend to look at real estate, we enjoy the weather.

Personally, I don't really want to live anywhere but OKC metro area, but my Dad is looking for somewhere with a good buyer friendly housing market where he can also play golf year round... so, it fits the bill for them.  And, honestly I was really surprised by how nice the Woodlands area is.

----------


## Praedura

> How soon will Okctalk (Pete or someone else) have the real inside scoop to the "Mystery"?


Tomorrow?!!!

probably not  :Frown: 


But yeah, I'm hoping "the scoop" happens earlier than March 30. Surely somebody in-the-know will mess up along the way and accidentally reveal something.  :Smile:

----------


## Pete

> Don't forget that since they don't have state income tax, that helps them also attract more employees...  That also hurts us in a comparison with any of the Texas metros...


Texas has higher state sales and excise taxes.

In terms of total taxes, the two states are very close:

CNN/Money: Taxes state by state


Also, I believe Oklahoma's property taxes are lower and I know gasoline taxes are lower.  I'm not sure when you consider all taxes paid -- especially as a property owner -- that Oklahoma doesn't have a lower overall tax rate.

----------


## metro

OK, the verdict is out, the mystery tower will be a Houston shaped parking lot.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Texas has higher state sales and excise taxes.
> 
> In terms of total taxes, the two states are very close:
> 
> CNN/Money: Taxes state by state
> 
> 
> Also, I believe Oklahoma's property taxes are lower and I know gasoline taxes are lower.  I'm not sure when you consider all taxes paid -- especially as a property owner -- that Oklahoma doesn't have a lower total tax rate.


My sister has lived in the Ft Worth area for 20 years, she has half the house that I do and pays 4 times the property tax.

----------


## adaniel

> Don't forget that since *they don't have state income tax*, that helps them also attract more employees...  That also hurts us in a comparison with any of the Texas metros...
> 
> My parents are currently selling their house in Wichita and getting ready to retire in the Houston area.  When they first told me they were considering it, I groaned...  But, for them it's a little different.  They are looking in the Woodlands/Conroe area, and it's a definite given that they MIGHT drive south of the Woodlands maybe once or twice a year.  Being retired, they will have everything they need within 5-10 miles of their house.  And, I guess my folks and I are strange people, because we all LOVE the heat and humidity.  Everytime we go down there for a weekend to look at real estate, we enjoy the weather.


Just because there is no income tax doesn't mean the government doesn't get their money some way or another. In that light, make sure they completely understand the property tax structure down there. 

As a rule, property taxes run about 3-3.5% of assessed value down there. It could vary wildly depending on what county or school district you are in. There's also MUD taxes if you live in a new development or outside the city limits. And homestead exemptions are not a given. So in a 250K home, even with a 15K exemption you are paying close to 8K in property taxes, if not more. 

For these reasons and more you see a lot of people_ leave_ Houston when they retire, usually to the Hill Country or East Texas. Sounds like your parents will make due but just make sure they understand it.

----------


## Pete

Just looked it up...

Texas property tax rate is about 2 - 2.5 times (!!) that of Oklahoma.

----------


## MikeLucky

> The have higher state sales and excise taxes.
> 
> In terms of total taxes, the two states are very close:
> 
> CNN/Money: Taxes state by state
> 
> 
> Also, I believe Oklahoma's property taxes are lower.  I'm not sure when you consider all taxes paid -- especially as a property owner -- that Oklahoma doesn't have a lower total tax rate.


Yeah, and their property taxes usually more than make up for the lack of state income taxes.  We've done all the math and with the majority of their retirement being a federal government retirement (which also exempts them from state income taxes here in Oklahoma), and their age (which gives them a good break on the property taxes in Texas to Oklahoma levels), there really was almost no difference between the cost of living there versus here in Oklahoma.

The surprising difference we DID discover is that homes in the price range they are looking for, the north Houston suburb area actually has more home for the money than even here in OKC.  Add in the fact that they have some pretty specific things they are looking for in a home, there is a much larger inventory for them to choose from down there.  Combine that with warm weather year round, and that's why they are really focusing on ending up there.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Just because there is no income tax doesn't mean the government doesn't get their money some way or another. In that light, make sure they completely understand the property tax structure down there. 
> 
> As a rule, property taxes run about 3-3.5% of assessed value down there. It could vary wildly depending on what county or school district you are in. There's also MUD taxes if you live in a new development or outside the city limits. And homestead exemptions are not a given. So in a 250K home, even with a 15K exemption you are paying close to 8K in property taxes, if not more. 
> 
> For these reasons and more you see a lot of people_ leave_ Houston when they retire, usually to the Hill Country or East Texas. Sounds like your parents will make due but just make sure they understand it.


I didn't see your post since I was typing up my reply to Pete... but yeah, we've done all the math.  As retired folk, they get a really good break on the taxes.  The homes they are looking at have normal tax bills of something like $8,000 to $12,000 a year depending on which house they go with... the break they get will bring them down to something like $5,000 to $8,000.

Here in Oklahoma, the taxes for the same range of house is about the same as the reduced amount for them in Texas... maybe a little bit lower.  But, here in OK only my Mom's retirement is exempt from state income tax, but all of my Dad's is still subject to the taxes.  So, all in all, it comes out about the same either way for their particular situation.

And, my Dad's brother lives in Tyler in a very similar sized home with pretty much the same things that my parents house will have.  My folks think it's okay out there, but they really prefer the Woodlands/Conroe area more and even if it is going to cost them a tad more, they are okay with that.

----------


## progressiveboy

> Houston is the 4th largest city in the U.S. and the city and MSA are about 4-5 times the size of OKC.
> 
> So, they are worlds apart but I would also say that Houston has tons of problems (traffic, polution and sprawl being chief among them) and thus I could see why companies might prefer the easy lifestyle offered by Oklahoma City.
> 
> Houston is one of my least favorite cities...  It's got all the problems of L.A. and almost none of the benefits.  I know I'm biased, but I would much, much rather live in OKC and I'm sure I am not alone.


 Was traveling to Galveston last week and drove through Houston. To say the least, Houston traffic is horrendous. On the way back stopped in Houston driving on Loop 610 West traffic was god awful and this was in the evening around 8pm. However, lots to see and do in the city!

----------


## progressiveboy

> I looked at the blog in question and they sound a little defensive.  I guess that is normal.  After all what would I expect them to say.....OKC is a great place to livve and by the way we may lose some of our corporate community to them!  They don't want to hear that in Houston.


 It did sound a little defensive, however, Houston or Texas for that matter is in no way jealous of Oklahoma City. Living in Dallas, my friends poke fun of me and say how could I have ever lived in a State like Oklahoma. To them, Oklahoma is a vast wasteland full of people who feel of the turnip truck. Texas has a better mindset for attracting businesses and has a great business climate. I wish Oklahoma could emmulate Texas in luring big companies and making the State more wealthy and diverse! Just 2 weeks ago, Amazon announced a major facility to open in the suburb of Coppell. Also, lots of California companies opening and moving offices to Texas.

----------


## Pete

Here is more from today's chat with Steve.

He seems to think an announcement is imminent for the Stage Center site:





> Q. What's the latest on Mystery Tower? Now you can say there's nothing new and we can get the repeat questions started.
> 
> A.* I believe an announcement will occur within the next 30 days.*
> 
> 
> Q. Question about who is going to build an office tower downtown ... just kidding. With all the speculation about the Stage Center site, how would a redevelopment of it affect the Arts Festival?
> 
> A. Redevelopment of the Stage Center site could very well have a significant impact on the annual Festival of the Arts. I cannot say whether the bid now under consideration by the owner of Stage Center, the Oklahoma City Community Foundation, calls for *incorporation of the surrounding arts plaza and properties. But I can say that at least one of the original proposals did require clearance of the entire block. Don't be surprised if that ends up to be the case* with the winning bid as well. The good news is that the Myriad Gardens, revamped as part of Project 180, is much better suited to incorporate more of the festival than it was in prior years. Of course, we could see an entirely different outcome where Stage Center stays in place. But that would be a big surprise to me.
> 
> ...

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK

----------


## Pete

If negotiations are underway for the entire block, perhaps this is why everything has been "complex", to use Steve's term.

The City controls that entire block except for the little bit in blue, which is a small building held by a local man.

----------


## Snowman

> BAHAHAHA @ them saying "Light Rail is not the answer...it will never get used".


Realistically, if they do light-rail or commuter rail they will probably need to pair that with a major sustained push for dense development near the stops for it to be well utilized.

----------


## bchris02

> It did sound a little defensive, however, Houston or Texas for that matter is in no way jealous of Oklahoma City. Living in Dallas, my friends poke fun of me and say how could I have ever lived in a State like Oklahoma. To them, Oklahoma is a vast wasteland full of people who feel of the turnip truck. Texas has a better mindset for attracting businesses and has a great business climate. I wish Oklahoma could emmulate Texas in luring big companies and making the State more wealthy and diverse! Just 2 weeks ago, Amazon announced a major facility to open in the suburb of Coppell. Also, lots of California companies opening and moving offices to Texas.


Agreed.  Houston is on an entirely different level than OKC.  Comparing OKC to Houston is like comparing Poteau to OKC.  OKC should compare itself to peer cities like Louisville, Memphis, Jacksonville, Richmond, etc.  If Houston were to lose a HQ (or two) to OKC, Houston is so large and diverse it could easily absorb it.  The positive effect it would have on OKC would be exponentially higher than the negative effect it would have on Houston.  We are talking about a metro of 1.3 million vs one of 6 million.  

The Houston metro is one single entity unlike DFW which is a metroplex, with Dallas and Ft Worth being two completely different yet connected entities. That along puts Houston ahead of DFW and the only larger beasts in the US are Chicago, LA, and New York.

----------


## okcpulse

> I didn't see your post since I was typing up my reply to Pete... but yeah, we've done all the math.  As retired folk, they get a really good break on the taxes.  The homes they are looking at have normal tax bills of something like $8,000 to $12,000 a year depending on which house they go with... the break they get will bring them down to something like $5,000 to $8,000.
> 
> Here in Oklahoma, the taxes for the same range of house is about the same as the reduced amount for them in Texas... maybe a little bit lower.  But, here in OK only my Mom's retirement is exempt from state income tax, but all of my Dad's is still subject to the taxes.  So, all in all, it comes out about the same either way for their particular situation.
> 
> And, my Dad's brother lives in Tyler in a very similar sized home with pretty much the same things that my parents house will have.  My folks think it's okay out there, but they really prefer the Woodlands/Conroe area more and even if it is going to cost them a tad more, they are okay with that.


The Woodlands/Conroe area housing costs aren't going to stay at these levels for long.  Exxon is building a major corporate campus near the Hardy toll road split.  The campus will house 12,000 of its employees, some of which are being relocated to the area from other parts of the country.  Include the general rapid growth Texas normally experiences, and the congestion is going to get bad.  It already is unbearable.

If your parents are willing to deal with that, more power to them.  Please note that in 5-10 years, their property taxes will increase to the point where they will be protesting their property taxes on an annual basis.

----------


## okcpulse

> It did sound a little defensive, however, Houston or Texas for that matter is in no way jealous of Oklahoma City. Living in Dallas, my friends poke fun of me and say how could I have ever lived in a State like Oklahoma. To them, Oklahoma is a vast wasteland full of people who feel of the turnip truck.


Exactly what turns me off about Texas.  It is filled with the stench of elitism.  However, there are people in Houston who do long for the different QOL Oklahoma City offers.  I can say for a matter of fact that in Houston, it is not about jealousy.  They can't seem to digest the reverse migration of some jobs to Oklahoma.  They get the dear in the headlights look.




> I wish Oklahoma could emulate Texas in luring big companies and making the State more wealthy and diverse.


We are trying, and it would be much easier for us to succeed if some media outlets in other parts of the country will stop characterizing Oklahoma as the inexperienced junior college grad.  Thankfully, there are media outlets that are taking notice and doing there homework.  To them, let me quote Sam Kenison in 'Back to School' when he harshly asked Rodney Dangerfield about how President Truman handled the communist movement in China...

"Good answer.  Good answer.  I like the way you think.  I'll be keeping my eye on you."

----------


## okcpulse

> Here is more from today's chat with Steve.
> 
> He seems to think an announcement is imminent for the Stage Center site:


This is good news!  I will be keeping a close eye on The Oklahoman.  Need to renew my subscription.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

Reading all this stuff & realizing just how close we may be, it makes me excited! I love the momentum in this city.

----------


## Just the facts

I noticed the 1,000 residential unit question appeared in the "Mystery Tower" section of Steve's recap of today's chat.  Hmmm.

Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK

----------


## lasomeday

> I noticed the 1,000 residential unit question appeared in the "Mystery Tower" section of Steve's recap of today's chat.  Hmmm.
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK


I was thinking the same thing.  Maybe the Stage Center site will have two towers on it, one office tower and one residential, or just one huge tower with both!

----------


## Just the facts

> I was thinking the same thing.  Maybe the Stage Center site will have two towers on it, one office tower and one residential, or just one huge tower with both!


If they buy the whole area from Reno to Sheridan there is enough room to get far more than 2 towers.  The Stage Center block alone could easily fit 4 to 6 residential towers.  Residential towers don't have near the footprint of an office tower.

----------


## Bellaboo

I think it'll be the international corporate relocation that was anticipated in 2012. It could be a complex only second to Devon. Hopefully we'll find out within the next 29 days.

----------


## Praedura

> I think it'll be the international corporate relocation that was anticipated in 2012. It could be a complex only second to Devon. Hopefully we'll find out within the next 29 days.


That's positive thinking. I like it!

----------


## HOT ROD

> I think it'll be the international corporate relocation that was anticipated in 2012. It could be a complex only second to Devon. Hopefully we'll find out within the next 29 days.


I agree, that site would be quite attractive to a large Int'l Corp HQ but I say make it a supertall!


I do want to say; after reading the first few posts from Steve's OKC Central posting, Im beginning to believe it is OG&E that is the buyer/developer in play for Stage Center. Look at the third, fourth, and fifth postings:

 * an announcement will be made when it is ready for Prime Time,
 * Mystery Tower to be corp HQ -OR- corp HQ + residential? an announcement to be made in Prime Time,
* Is OG&E consolidating, could it be Stage Center? when I have something ready for Prime Time, I PROMISE I'll do so  :Smile: 
* Negotiations under way with a single party
* * Perhaps MORE than one Mystery Tower, sites

Anyway, it is fun to speculate nonetheless! and I totally agree that this is great for OKC's renaissance momentum.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I agree, that site would be quite attractive to a large Int'l Corp HQ but I say make it a supertall!
> 
> 
> I do want to say; after reading the first few posts from Steve's OKC Central posting, Im beginning to believe it is OG&E that is the buyer/developer in play for Stage Center. Look at the third, fourth, and fifth postings:
> 
>  * an announcement will be made when it is ready for Prime Time,
>  * Mystery Tower to be corp HQ -OR- corp HQ + residential? an announcement to be made in Prime Time,
> * Is OG&E consolidating, could it be Stage Center? when I have something ready for Prime Time, I PROMISE I'll do so 
> * Negotiations under way with a single party
> ...


Steve said it was someone other than OG&E -- & Continental -- that is planning to build on the Stage Center site if I recall correctly.

----------


## Praedura

> If negotiations are underway for the entire block, perhaps *this is why everything has been "complex"*, to use Steve's term.




 :Smile:

----------


## hoya

If discussions are underway to use the entire block, then we're looking at a massive investment.  Steve still referred to it as a "tower", otherwise I would think a company might consider a series of smaller buildings.  Stage Center is on a huge piece of land, you could put three or four Devon towers there (though not the accompanying buildings) without problem.  So... we're looking at at least one tower, with probably a parking structure and smaller amenities buildings, I would say.  The idea that they were considering purchasing all the way down to Reno indicates that there are many buildings in the plan.

We'd have to look at a significant corporate relocation to need that much space, I would say.

----------


## lasomeday

> If discussions are underway to use the entire block, then we're looking at a massive investment.  Steve still referred to it as a "tower", otherwise I would think a company might consider a series of smaller buildings.  Stage Center is on a huge piece of land, you could put three or four Devon towers there (though not the accompanying buildings) without problem.  So... we're looking at at least one tower, with probably a parking structure and smaller amenities buildings, I would say.  The idea that they were considering purchasing all the way down to Reno indicates that there are many buildings in the plan.
> 
> We'd have to look at a significant corporate relocation to need that much space, I would say.


The only company that hasn't been said in a while is Midfirst Bank/Midland Mortgage. They have the money and the people to build a massive tower.....

----------


## Just the facts

> If discussions are underway to use the entire block, then we're looking at a massive investment.  Steve still referred to it as a "tower", otherwise I would think a company might consider a series of smaller buildings.  Stage Center is on a huge piece of land, you could put three or four Devon towers there (though not the accompanying buildings) without problem.  So... we're looking at at least one tower, with probably a parking structure and smaller amenities buildings, I would say.  The idea that they were considering purchasing all the way down to Reno indicates that there are many buildings in the plan.
> 
> We'd have to look at a significant corporate relocation to need that much space, I would say.


When Steve said "mystery towers" a bet a lot of us took it to mean "mystery sites" as well, but maybe he meant multiple towers on one site.  They could easily build towers for OG&E, Continental, Mid-First, Relocation, and a Spec tower - and have room for 2 or 3 residetial/hotel towers.

----------


## catch22

> When Steve said "mystery towers" a bet a lot of us took it to mean "mystery sites" as well, but maybe he meant multiple towers on one site.  They could easily build towers for OG&E, Continental, Mid-First, Relocation, and a Spec tower - and have room for 2 or 3 residetial/hotel towers.


Doubt it. I don't think anyone would ever build with that much density in OKC.

----------


## Just the facts

> Doubt it. I don't think anyone would ever build with that much density in OKC.


At least not now, but they did at one time.  Could - should - would.  All different.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> The only company that hasn't been said in a while is Midfirst Bank/Midland Mortgage. They have the money and the people to build a massive tower.....


Unfortunately, it is not going to be Midfirst.  I've heard they are in the process of buying 3-5 buildings from CHK(not on the campus).  They are busting at the seams in their Grand Blvd location, but this purchase should alleviate that problem.

----------


## Easy180

> Unfortunately, it is not going to be Midfirst.  I've heard they are in the process of buying 3-5 buildings from CHK(not on the campus).  They are busting at the seams in their Grand Blvd location, but this purchase should alleviate that problem.


They are also renovating the operations center at Hefner and Rockwell...We can pretty much rule them out

----------


## jn1780

Yeah, a Midfirst tower went out the widow when CHK pretty much went bust. There's a lot of CHK carcass's for Midfirst to feast on and there maybe more in the future.

----------


## progressiveboy

I am hoping it is a major out of state relocation! OKC can use another Fortune 500 company headquartered in the CBD. OKC needs new blood and new companies along with new forward thinking residents. To me, this will add wealth to the city with HQ's firmly planted and more philanthrophic money flowing into the city! Lets hope this is the case.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> To me, this will add wealth to the city with HQ's firmly planted and more philanthrophic money flowing into the city! Lets hope this is the case.


 The more corporate sponsors for the Thunder, the better!

----------


## Pete

> Unfortunately, it is not going to be Midfirst.  I've heard they are in the process of buying 3-5 buildings from CHK(not on the campus).  They are busting at the seams in their Grand Blvd location, but this purchase should alleviate that problem.


Yes, with Chesapeake opening almost 700,000 square feet of new office space this year (Building 14 just opened, Building 15 is close, as is Building #1, the RTC Lab, the new Data Center and Central Plant plus two huge parking garages) I've speculated for a while that they would like sell off the former Grand Park buildings along I-44 and next to Midland/Midfirst.

CHK is selling off assets, laying off employees and contractors and will almost double the amount of square footage on their campus.  Makes sense they would start consolidating back from the Grand Park sites, as they are somewhat separate from the main campus.

They have already sold Caliber Center and the Harvey Parkway and sold the business that occupies the two Central Park buildings.


So, not only is CHK no longer a buyer for the MidFirst properties adjoining their campus, their buyer/seller roles have completely reversed.  And that means MidFirst is not a good candidate to be moving downtown.

----------


## HangryHippo

That really sucks.  I always thought MidFirst Bank would be a nice addition to the downtown rolls, and I really think Jeff Records messed up by not taking what CHK offered.  No matter now though, I hope they continue to grow and do well.

----------


## metro

> I think it'll be the international corporate relocation that was anticipated in 2012. It could be a complex only second to Devon. Hopefully we'll find out within the next 29 days.


Heck, why not think bigger, how about the 1st intergalactic corporate relocation!

----------


## Pete

> That really sucks.  I always thought MidFirst Bank would be a nice addition to the downtown rolls, and I really think Jeff Records messed up by not taking what CHK offered.  No matter now though, I hope they continue to grow and do well.


At least there is a ready buyer to take over those surplus CHK buildings and fill them with employees.

I've been worried for a while about the consequences of Chesapeake dumping a lot of their properties on the market at the same time, but at least in the office segment that no longer seems to be a risk.

Will be very, very interesting to see what they do with all their vacant land and retail properties.  Hopefully they will trickle into the market as well and find buyers who will do good things.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I really think Jeff Records messed up by not taking what CHK offered.


From what I heard JR likes having his office 10 minutes from his house and doesn't want to move downtown.

----------


## Just the facts

> From what I heard JR likes having his office 10 minutes from his house and doesn't want to move downtown.


I can buy that.  Most people would prefer to live close to work and if you have the power to make work close to home then it would make sense to do so.

----------


## OKCbrew

> Doubt it. I don't think anyone would ever build with that much density in OKC.


Speaking of density, did you know OKC is apparently the least dense city of the 50 largest cities in the US? Oh, and also that Tulsa is WAAAAY denser than OKC? Check out this Wikipedia edit that happened a couple of days ago -http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=541779716

Someone must have been really compelled that some information was missing from that first paragraph!

----------


## OKCbrew

Holy crap! That same dude changed the height of the Devon building to 644 feet, made BOK the tallest building again, bumped up Tulsa's population and made Will Rogers the second busiest airport next to Tulsa's:

User contributions for Fciman06 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Speaking of density, did you know OKC is apparently the least dense city of the 50 largest cities in the US? Oh, and also that Tulsa is WAAAAY denser than OKC? Check out this Wikipedia edit that happened a couple of days ago -http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=541779716
> 
> Someone must have been really compelled that some information was missing from that first paragraph!


such a flawed stat ... the reason okc is the least dense is because it is the biggest city in America (not counting city counties)

----------


## OKCbrew

> such a flawed stat ... the reason okc is the least dense is because it is the biggest city in America (not counting city counties)


I'm not even sure it's correct now that I've seen the other edits by the same user. I'm looking to see if I can find actual numbers.

----------


## OKCbrew

> https://twitter.com/fciman06


Weird. 
Oh well - looks like some of yous have corrected the stuff already. I know it had nothing to do with the "mystery tower" but I just happened to have this thread open when I noticed.  :Tongue:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Is Wikipedia building a new tower here???? jk.. lol

----------


## adaniel

> Speaking of density, did you know OKC is apparently the least dense city of the 50 largest cities in the US? Oh, and also that Tulsa is WAAAAY denser than OKC? Check out this Wikipedia edit that happened a couple of days ago -http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=541779716
> 
> Someone must have been really compelled that some information was missing from that first paragraph!


Tulsa haters are cute. Don't let those facts get in the way. 

The Village, Bethay, and Warr Acres are the densest cities in the state. 

We are the least dense top 50 city, though. That is a fact, although very misleading. The OKC and Tulsa urbanized area density is pretty much the same. 

List of United States urban areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## OKCbrew

I think the Taco Tower should go on there, 60 stories, 900 feet. Also a rendering complete with flowing salsa fountains!

Interesting - a bit of googling suggests the rogue editor is a Tulsa firefighter.  :Eek:

----------


## jedicurt

i guess this shows the difference between living in reality and living in wikiality

----------


## okcpulse

> Holy crap! That same dude changed the height of the Devon building to 644 feet, made BOK the tallest building again, bumped up Tulsa's population and made Will Rogers the second busiest airport next to Tulsa's:
> 
> User contributions for Fciman06 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Oklahoma City Will Rogers World Airport passenger traffic in 2011:
3.56 million

Tulsa International Airport passenger traffic in 2011:
2.79 million

Man, this guy has a vendetta, or an odd sense of humor.

----------


## Snowman

> Holy crap! That same dude changed the height of the Devon building to 644 feet, made BOK the tallest building again, bumped up Tulsa's population and made Will Rogers the second busiest airport next to Tulsa's:
> 
> User contributions for Fciman06 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Looks like he feels like keeping up trolling, he is making more edits on OKC's wiki, apparently the only page they edited (may just create a new account each time wants to troll)

----------


## mcca7596

> I can buy that.  Most people would prefer to live close to work and if you have the power to make work close to home then it would make sense to do so.


I think you are underestimating the amount of people that enjoy and have to have a mental and literal distance between their home and work lives to stay sane.

----------


## kevinpate

OKC is rumored to host a truly impressive level of density ... with an epicenter near 23rd and Lincoln

----------


## OKCbrew

> Looks like he feels like keeping up trolling, he is making more edits on OKC's wiki, apparently the only page they edited (may just create a new account each time wants to troll)


Unless this is some kind of elaborate attempt to throw people off his trail, he used the same name for the twitter account that Sid found, complete with his first and last name. I'm pretty sure I found his facebook page full of Tulsa photos and a comment about Will Rogers being busy because folks are leaving OKC. It all looks a bit weird.

----------


## Decious

> Looks like he feels like keeping up trolling, he is making more edits on OKC's wiki, apparently the only page they edited (may just create a new account each time wants to troll)


I "undid" some of the edits(under the handle nondorkokc) the troll made and gave reasoning for doing so. Unfortunately, he seems really motivated and "purposed". Crusade-like. Lol! So... I won't distract from this thread any more but from Sid's twitter link, he may be miffed regarding the sorting facility in Tulsa since it is scheduled for closure in deference to the facility here. If so... he won't stop and I don't have time or any desire to monitor our Wiki page. :-) May be best to just let him get it out of his system and then go back and clean it up in a couple of weeks.

Also... I check this thread every single day. Can't wait for an announcement!

----------


## Snowman

> Weird. 
> Oh well - looks like some of yous have corrected the stuff already. I know it had nothing to do with the "mystery tower" but I just happened to have this thread open when I noticed.


I thought cluttering up the wiki page for OKC was odd till I read some of the twitter feed, if I had seen it with no idea about odd compulsive behavior to change our wiki page I would have thought the twitter account was hacked

----------


## Bellaboo

Back to topic -

I wonder if the announcement will be one of those 'in awe' announcements or if it will be one of 'well we expected this' type of deals. I know the SC site was being put out for bids about a year ago, and statements have been made that a dozen groups have looked at the site..

thoughts anyone ?

----------


## Decious

I vote 'in awe'. If we've gleaned the amount of info we have via tidbits collected here and there... you'd think that the main players have maybe been able to find some synergy to build into... and maybe we'll see that manifested at the SC site. I have no idea, but I'm thinking I'll be shocked in a good way. Another one of those "I can't believe this is happening in OKC... maybe I need to start viewing my town in a different way type moments." Here's to hoping.

----------


## catch22

> Back to topic -
> 
> I wonder if the announcement will be one of those 'in awe' announcements or if it will be one of 'well we expected this' type of deals. I know the SC site was being put out for bids about a year ago, and statements have been made that a dozen groups have looked at the site..
> 
> thoughts anyone ?


I'm telling myself we're getting a 15 story midrise. That way I won't be disappointed if it is, and I will be shocked if it's something much greater.

----------


## OKCbrew

> I'm telling myself we're getting a 15 story midrise. That way I won't be disappointed if it is, and I will be shocked if it's something much greater.


I know how that is. I get psyched every time I go up 235 and can see the new Hilton sprouting up under that crane even if it is only 11 stories. I'm hoping there will be two cranes simultaneously when the Holiday inn starts going up!

----------


## Just the facts

> I'm telling myself we're getting a 15 story midrise. That way I won't be disappointed if it is, and I will be shocked if it's something much greater.


I would be happy with a 15 story mid-rise.  I only care about the first 5 floors anyhow.

----------


## jedicurt

> I would be happy with a 15 story mid-rise.  I only care about the first 5 floors anyhow.


i would be happier with a 15 story over nothing... but it being a cooperate tower, i would hope more for the 20-40 story range.   I think 15 would be great for a mixed-use, or full residential tower.  that i would be very happy with.   But i am also just hoping for more places downtown to buy... as i am tired of renting, and having no equity, and would like the move downtown...

----------


## MikeLucky

> i would be happier with a 15 story over nothing... but it being a *cooperate* tower, i would hope more for the 20-40 story range.   I think 15 would be great for a mixed-use, or full residential tower.  that i would be very happy with.   But i am also just hoping for more places downtown to buy... as i am tired of renting, and having no equity, and would like the move downtown...


Man, I hope it is a cooperate tower... Can you imagine trying to go to work in an uncooperative tower??  Everyday you'd have to sneak up on it... maybe switch up which entrance you go in.  And, think about the plumbing issues!





 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## tillyato

> I would be happy with a 15 story mid-rise.  I only care about the first 5 floors anyhow.


In general I would rather see four 15 story mid-rise buildings built downtown than one 60 story super-tall tower, assuming the mid-rises all interacted well with the street and had some ground-floor mixed-use component. That said, I certainly won't be unhappy with a big tower at the stage center site, especially if it moves more high-paying jobs downtown from other parts of the city (or hopefully out-of-state).

----------


## jedicurt

> Man, I hope it is a cooperate tower... Can you imagine trying to go to work in an uncooperative tower??  Everyday you'd have to sneak up on it... maybe switch up which entrance you go in.  And, think about the plumbing issues!



sorry... sometimes i type faster than i think, and don't go back and re-read it... a CORPORATE Tower! lol

----------


## pickles

If I knew nothing about the company, I would still be inclined to think Hertz made sense.  I don't think it does though.

----------


## kevinpate

> I would be happy with a 15 story mid-rise.  I only care about the first 5 floors anyhow.


May the occupants and/or residents of floors 6 through 15 drop many water balloons as you pass by.

----------


## Bellaboo

> If I knew nothing about the company, I would still be inclined to think Hertz made sense.  I don't think it does though.


It's NOT Hertz.....They've been selling buildings due to downsizing over the past few years. Even buying Dollar Thrifty, they are not building anything downtown, and if they do build, it'll be next to their Quail Springs HAC center. They have empty space at their Data Center on NW Expwy after sending 230 IT jobs to India in 2008.

----------


## Bellaboo

Here is another possibility - the oil industry is in the process of spinning off their midstream operations into seperate entities. I think CHK did this and moved them to the Central Park buildings. 
Maybe it's possible that some big company is relocating their MLP to the SC site ??

----------


## HangryHippo

> Here is another possibility - the oil industry is in the process of spinning off their midstream operations into seperate entities. I think CHK did this and moved them to the Central Park buildings. 
> Maybe it's possible that some big company is relocating their MLP to the SC site ??


This was a question when it was announced that Devon was looking into creating a MLP.  I don't know, but something tells me it's not a MLP.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> It's NOT Hertz.....They've been selling buildings due to downsizing over the past few years. Even buying Dollar Thrifty, they are not building anything downtown, and if they do build, it'll be next to their Qual Springs HAC center. They have empty space at their Data Center on NW Expwy after sending 230 IT jobs to India in 2008.


Hertz also owns the land behind their Quail Springs facility.  They have it for future expansion.

----------


## GaryOKC6

"Here is another possibility - the oil industry is in the process of spinning off their midstream operations into seperate entities. I think CHK did this and moved them to the Central Park buildings. 
Maybe it's possible that some big company is relocating their MLP to the SC site ?? "

You are referring to Access midstream.  They bought Chesapeake Midstream and moved the offices off of the campus.

----------


## JosephYost

I thought I should post this article from News OK.
Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK

----------


## Just the facts

> May the occupants and/or residents of floors 6 through 15 drop many water balloons as you pass by.


If they built sidewalk awnings like they should they can drop all they want  :Smile: .

----------


## Teo9969

Steve,

My birthday is March 20th...let the powers that be know that I won't require a birthday gift if they just announce the plans on that day.

TIA

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> I thought I should post this article from News OK.
> Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK


This was posted on March 1st, but wouldn't blame you not going three pages back through off-topic discussions.

----------


## Skyline

There should be an Okctalk reward for anyone that knows the details of the real Mystery Tower.

----------


## PhiAlpha

^ Everybody throw in 5 bucks...group bribery.

----------


## okcpulse

Steve, I will give you the intellectual property rights to my OKC book. I kid.  Just wanted you to laugh a little  :Wink:

----------


## tillyato

Details are still sketchy, but I can confirm the mystery tower will NOT be in the shape of a taco. Salsa fountains still a possibility...

Seriously though, I'd throw in $5 for concrete info on the mystery tower at this point. I can already tell this is going to be a looooooooong month of waiting for the official announcement.

----------


## sooner88

Was told today that the CHK employees at the 63rd locations will be moving out May 1st and that MidFirst had bought the buildings.

----------


## Rover

Which 63rd locations?  I assume you at implying 63rd street.

----------


## sooner88

63rd and NW Expressway I believe?

----------


## Steve

> There should be an Okctalk reward for anyone that knows the details of the real Mystery Tower.


What's the reward?
 :Wink:

----------


## DowntownMan

> What's the reward?


^^^someone obviously knows something but won't share yet. I can't wait to see what you have to say Steve. Looking forward to an article from you in the near future..

----------


## s00nr1

I'm hearing the complex will have 4 30-story commercial towers with 1 20-story residential tower and a park in the middle. Here is the initial design:

----------


## lasomeday

> What's the reward?


Steve!  You are such a tease!  But I love it!  It means we are close and you have been great with what you have been able to tell us!

----------


## okcpulse

> What's the reward?


I will be hitting Newsok.com four times a day instead of twice.  I have a gut feeling a major announcement with come during my vacation in OKC next week.

----------


## bchris02

> Speaking of density, did you know OKC is apparently the least dense city of the 50 largest cities in the US? Oh, and also that Tulsa is WAAAAY denser than OKC? Check out this Wikipedia edit that happened a couple of days ago -http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=541779716
> 
> Someone must have been really compelled that some information was missing from that first paragraph!


I wish Tulsa boosters would stop belittling OKC and focus on what makes Tulsa great.  Tulsa does indeed have some attributes that are ahead of OKC.  Tulsa is slightly more progressive when it comes to arts and culture, has better parks, much better concerts, and has significantly better shopping than OKC does.  That should be enough to satisfy Tulsa boosters but they are starting to get jealous of OKC because this is where more of the recent development is happening and they have to go out of their way to belittle it.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I wish Tulsa boosters would stop belittling OKC and focus on what makes Tulsa great.  Tulsa does indeed have some attributes that are ahead of OKC.  Tulsa is slightly more progressive when it comes to arts and culture, has better parks, much better concerts, and has significantly better shopping than OKC does.  That should be enough to satisfy Tulsa boosters but they are starting to get jealous of OKC because this is where more of the recent development is happening and they have to go out of their way to belittle it.


Tulsa has better shopping, but I think saying it is significantly better than OKC's is a stretch. OKC has caught up quite a bit with whole foods, the outlet mall, etc. What does Tulsa have now that OKC doesn't outside of a scaled down Saks?

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> What does Tulsa have now that OKC doesn't outside of a scaled down Saks?


Nothing. It's just a good arguing point for Tulsa that was true over the years but is becoming more & more outdated, although bchris02 makes very good points. His posts are usually pretty accurate -- IMO -- though.

EDIT: I just realized this is the "Mystery Tower" thread. Why must we veer so far astray from the topic in pretty much every thread?

----------


## adaniel

> Tulsa has better shopping, but I think saying it is significantly better than OKC's is a stretch. OKC has caught up quite a bit with whole foods, the outlet mall, etc. What does Tulsa have now that OKC doesn't outside of a scaled down Saks?


Well OKC does have a Saks Off 5th, which I've heard is actually very comparable to the actual store, so can they claim that? They do have a Restoration Hardware, I'll give them that.

----------


## Teo9969

Steve...how about these odds for the announcement that is expected to come in the next 30 or so days?:

*Type*

Corporate Tower ... 3:1
--- Out-of-State 6:1
--- In State 10:1
Residential (Mixed-Use) ... 4:1
--- 100% Apts ... 12:1
--- 100% Condos ... 20:1
--- Mixed Apts/Con ... 25:1
--- Mixed Office/Res ... 50:1
Spec Office (Mixed-Use) ... 10:1
Hotel ... 20:1

*Location*

Stage Center ... 3:4
Kerr/Hudson ... 10:1
4th/Gaylord ... 50:1
Preftakes ... 75:1

*Who*

Unknown Company ... 15:1
Shell ... 30:1
Conoco ... 35:1
OGE ... 50:1
Sinopec ... 80:1
Cimarex ... 80:1
Continental ... 75:1
Devon ... 100:1

----------


## okcpulse

> Tulsa has better shopping, but I think saying it is significantly better than OKC's is a stretch. OKC has caught up quite a bit with whole foods, the outlet mall, etc. What does Tulsa have now that OKC doesn't outside of a scaled down Saks?


We might want to note that, according to one of Steve's Friday chats, word is that Tulsa officials convince future retailers that Tulsa is better for them than OKC.  May or may not be true, however it is in keeping with what we know about Tulsa's practices.  

Now, about our mystery tower, I am curious more than anything else as to what the conceptual designs will be.  Will architects compliment the Devon Tower?  Or will they fashion a style all their own?

----------


## Decious

> Steve...how about these odds for the announcement that is expected to come in the next 30 or so days?:
> 
> *Type*
> 
> Steve's guess ... 1:1
> 
> *Location*
> 
> Steve's guess ... 1:1
> ...


Fixed it. I think he knows. He just can't say. Don't think the "mystery" part of this thing is relevant to him any longer.

----------


## Bellaboo

I think the good thing about this, is that whoever is building will already know what they want, which might allow for a late summer to early fall start....

now this is looking ahead.

----------


## OKCbrew

Can we put a 111 Huntington Ave there please?

----------


## HangryHippo

That would actually be a pretty sweet addition.

Also, in the event that the Cox center ever gets torn down, there is going to be some pretty awesome redevelopment opportunities available on those parcels.  More mystery towers??

----------


## metro

Hopefully we will see something with a wider footprint along Hudson.

----------


## bchris02

> Nothing. It's just a good arguing point for Tulsa that was true over the years but is becoming more & more outdated, although bchris02 makes very good points. His posts are usually pretty accurate -- IMO -- though.
> 
> EDIT: I just realized this is the "Mystery Tower" thread. Why must we veer so far astray from the topic in pretty much every thread?


I agree that the Outlet mall has gone a long way to bridge the retail gap between OKC and Tulsa. There are still areas where Tulsa is ahead though and most retailers new to the state open in Tulsa before OKC. Once that changes, I will say the corner has been turned.

What I don't understand is why big name concerts usually play in Tulsa rather than OKC.

----------


## adaniel

> Can we put a 111 Huntington Ave there please?


Ya know that's a cool building. But now that I see it on the stage center site, IMO anything that's built on that site will mess up the balance and consistency of the skyline. It just seems very separated from the core of downtown. Of course it could have just been the angle the picture was taken.

----------


## catch22

> Ya know that's a cool building. But now that I see it on the stage center site, IMO anything that's built on that site will mess up the balance and consistency of the skyline. It just seems very separated from the core of downtown. Of course it could have just been the angle the picture was taken.


Then imagine a building on the Preftakes block.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

The Preftakes block will.... Beat me to it.  :Smile:

----------


## Bellaboo

> Ya know that's a cool building. But now that I see it on the stage center site, IMO anything that's built on that site will mess up the balance and consistency of the skyline. It just seems very separated from the core of downtown. Of course it could have just been the angle the picture was taken.


Some day, when something is built on the Preftakes block, it will all connect.

----------


## rlewis

I was told by someone that was very familiar with the management company of both OKC's and Tulsa's arenas, SMG, that they have been steering a lot of the big-name concerts to Tulsa to try and fill dates at the underutilized BOK center.  With the Thunder filling 40-50 dates every year, Chesapeake Arena doesn't have to be stocked with concerts any more.  SMG knows that people from OKC will travel to Tulsa for the significant concerts.

----------


## Praedura

> Can we put a 111 Huntington Ave there please?


Nice mockup!

I wouldn't mind the tower being just a wee bit taller than shown in your pic so as to better bridge the gap between Chase and Devon.

----------


## Praedura

> ...It just seems very separated from the core of downtown...


By what, about 50 feet?  :Smile: 

In my mind, a see an OKC of the future with highrises to the west of Devon (Preftakes and even further), to the south in the Core To Shore area, and even a bit to the east in the Cotton Mill area. In this future city, Devon Tower is closer to the center of the cluster of downtown skyscrapers rather than at the edge. Of course, this city only exists in my imagination at this time.

----------


## OKCbrew

> Nice mockup!
> 
> I wouldn't mind the tower being just a wee bit taller than shown in your pic so as to better bridge the gap between Chase and Devon.


Thanks! I tried to eyeball an accurate height for that building but I think it would be nice with a few more floors as well.

I think that angle does makes it look a bit separated because it's perpendicular to the line between Stage Center and Devon, but I bet the view directly from the east or west would make it look a bit more connected.

----------


## adaniel

> Some day, when something is built on the Preftakes block, it will all connect.


Completely forgot about the Preftake's block. OK, false alarm lol. That will smooth it out much better. 




> I was told by someone that was very familiar with the management company of both OKC's and Tulsa's arenas, SMG, that they have been steering a lot of the big-name concerts to Tulsa to try and fill dates at the underutilized BOK center.  With the Thunder filling 40-50 dates every year, Chesapeake Arena doesn't have to be stocked with concerts any more.  SMG knows that people from OKC will travel to Tulsa for the significant concerts.


If I had a choice between seeing some of the greatest athletes in the nation play 40 times a year vs seeing some pop-tart 15 times a year...yeah I'm probably going with the former. Although just a quick spot check on the calendar shows 10 concerts at BOK through October and 8 at CHK arena during the same time, including 5 during basketball season. So maybe not a huge advantage.

----------


## Snowman

> If I had a choice between seeing some of the greatest athletes in the nation play 40 times a year vs seeing some pop-tart 15 times a year...yeah I'm probably going with the former. Although just a quick spot check on the calendar shows 10 concerts at BOK through October and 8 at CHK arena during the same time, including 5 during basketball season. So maybe not a huge advantage.


It seems like Tulsa's music scene has generally had the biggest advantage in the gap between in the small bands playing everywhere and the big acts hitting the larger cities.

----------


## bchris02

> I was told by someone that was very familiar with the management company of both OKC's and Tulsa's arenas, SMG, that they have been steering a lot of the big-name concerts to Tulsa to try and fill dates at the underutilized BOK center.  With the Thunder filling 40-50 dates every year, Chesapeake Arena doesn't have to be stocked with concerts any more.  SMG knows that people from OKC will travel to Tulsa for the significant concerts.


The BOK center is overkill for Tulsa in my opinion. Unless Tulsa gets an NHL franchise, it will probably always be underutilized. Their primary purpose for building it was to outdo OKC.

----------


## metro

Can someone photoshop a wide base building like the UN building (only hopefully a more modern design) instead? I'd like to see a 1/2 block or more width building with the wide side street fronting Hudson facing the park. I think that would be the most appropriate fit, and have a good size base and possibly other towers on that block. Or a One NY Plaza or Carnegie Tower would work too.

----------


## MikeLucky

> If I had a choice between seeing some of the greatest athletes in the nation play 40 times a year vs seeing some pop-tart 15 times a year...yeah I'm probably going with the former. Although just a quick spot check on the calendar shows 10 concerts at BOK through October and 8 at CHK arena during the same time, including 5 during basketball season. So maybe not a huge advantage.


I agree with your sentiment completely... however I only have one minor correction... lol.

If you want to see "some of the greatest athletes in the nation" you can just go to Norman (and as much as I don't want to, I'll say Stillwater too  :Stick Out Tongue: ).  The Thunder and the teams that come through here as opponents are some of the greatest athletes in the WORLD.  And, I only comment so that nobody is short-changed... you know those pro athletes and their delicate egos...  lol

----------


## adaniel

> I agree with your sentiment completely... however I only have one minor correction... lol.
> 
> If you want to see "some of the greatest athletes in the nation" you can just go to Norman (and as much as I don't want to, I'll say Stillwater too ).  The Thunder and the teams that come through here as opponents are some of the greatest athletes in the WORLD.  And, I only comment so that nobody is short-changed... you know those pro athletes and their delicate egos...  lol


True dat....I've even give credit to the Stillwater crew.

----------


## LuccaBrasi

Could today be the day that Steve will break the story we've all been waiting to hear....................

----------


## kbsooner

> Could today be the day that Steve will break the story we've all been waiting to hear....................


Steve's OKC Central (@stevelackmeyer) tweeted at 1:08 AM on Thu, Mar 07, 2013:
Why am I still working on a story at 1 a.m.? Get ready....

----------


## Just the facts

> Steve's OKC Central (@stevelackmeyer) tweeted at 1:08 AM on Thu, Mar 07, 2013:
> Why am I still working on a story at 1 a.m.? Get ready....


Ah crap!  Now how am I supposed to get any work done today?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer/s...61141481324545

----------


## sroberts24

I'm hitting refresh on every website I can think of right now!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> No, not the tower...


Oh well.

----------


## Just the facts

> No, not the tower...
> 			
> 		
> 
> Oh well.


So we can confirm there is in fact a tower even if this latest development is not associated with it.

----------


## sroberts24

> So we can confirm there is in fact a tower even if this latest development is not associated with it.



Touch!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> No, not the *tower*...

----------


## HangryHippo

> 


HAHA, nice.

When will we see the article that kept him up so late?

----------


## Kokopelli

Wonder if OKC was ever in the race to be the new home for Metlife?

MetLife to move 2,600 jobs to NC from NE, Calif. | News OK

----------


## Thundercitizen

Sooooooooo.......nuthin'?

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Sooooooooo.......nuthin'?


So far, no.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer/s...83128766427136

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Y'all are falling for hook line and sinker...  Let's all have wet dreams after April 5th, lol.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer/s...83128766427136


It must be getting really close. Steve has been hinting at it a lot lately.

----------


## Pete

From today's chat with Steve Lackmeyer:


Good Morning Steve, To the point, in your opinion, will the tower at Stage Center exceed 30 floors ? Thanks

NewsOK: Magic 8 Ball says: "Outlook is good." Magic 8 Ball is feeling chipper today.

----------


## Bellaboo

It's safe to say, if and when it happens, it will change the skyline.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Sounds like Steve is behind the 8 Ball.

----------


## Pete

I would be really happy with anything over 30 floors, as with today's modern floor heights, even a 30 story building would be taller than Chase.

40 floors would be really sweet and help bridge the big cap between the older buildings and Devon.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'm kind of wondering, if it is ConocoPhillips, If it will be more of a relocation for the firms assests in Bartlesville ?

Just a thought.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Full transcript:

OKC Central Chat transcript, March 8, 2013 | News OK

----------


## Midtowner

> Sid,
> 
> Obviously you misse the entire point. I guess I will troll elsewhere. I'll let you go back to your tree hugging dope smoking, confiscation of other people's property.
> 
> This is BS!


So your idea of freedom involves prohibitions on the substances people put in their own bodies, but land use being sacred?

Twisted, but it's a free country!

----------


## Just the facts

I don't know about Steve, but as a reader the mystery tower questions are starting to get old.

----------


## catch22

> I don't know about Steve, but as a reader the mystery tower questions are starting to get old.


I agree. I'm tired of hearing about the whole subject until some more concrete news comes out. Speculation, rumors, and teases are only fun for so long....

----------


## OKCbrew

> I don't know about Steve, but as a reader the mystery tower questions are starting to get old.


I'm sure it gets old for him if it does for us. While I am very interested in any new information, it does get a bit tiresome to read the same questions and the same answers every week.

That said - Assuming he has control over which questions appear and which don't, I noticed Steve will sometimes let through questions about the tower that he doesn't answer. Today someone asked if it was a Texas company associated with a new tower and as far as I can tell he didn't respond to it.

Could be meaningless though.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Bellaboo

> I agree. I'm tired of hearing about the whole subject until some more concrete news comes out. *Speculation, rumors, and teases* are only fun for so long....


Kind of the title for this thread isn't it ?      Not sure if anyone is making anybody look at this thread ...  LOL

----------


## HangryHippo

> Kind of the title for this thread isn't it ?      Not sure if anyone is making anybody look at this thread ...  LOL


You're absolutely right, but I definitely see Catch's and Brew's point.  It's become very annoying and tiresome at this point.  Same questions, same answers, every single week.

----------


## Bellaboo

> You're absolutely right, but I definitely see Catch's and Brew's point.  It's become very annoying and tiresome at this point.  Same questions, same answers, every single week.


Oh I agree.......but today, he more or less revealed that it'll be very sizeable, in excess of 30 stories.

----------


## catch22

> Kind of the title for this thread isn't it ?      Not sure if anyone is making anybody look at this thread ...  LOL


Definitely not saying this thread hasn't been fun to read and participate in, it's just the topic in general is getting worn out with little new solid information.

----------


## Pete

There has been LOTS of new information:

1. An announcement of a new tower is likely within the next 30 days
2. Will probably involve the Stage Center site
3. Is not Continental, Devon or OG&E -- likely an outside company
4. The three mentioned above are still likely to build as well and we'll probably see another announcement this year

----------


## Praedura

^ What Pete said.

And don't forget, there's the giant taco tower with flowing salsa fountains coming too!
 :Wink:

----------


## Pete

Forgot to add that it sounds like the Stage Center tower will be at least 30 stories.

----------


## catch22

> ^ What Pete said.
> 
> And don't forget, there's the giant taco tower with flowing salsa fountains coming too!


Now that's a project we can all get excited about.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

This has almost certainly been mentioned here (I just don't want to look back page through page), but does anyone have any idea how tall the new CC will be?

----------


## Thundercitizen

Steve is becoming Nostradamus cryptically scripting quatrains

----------


## Praedura

> Steve is becoming Nostradamus *cryptically scripting quatrains*


*admiring the phrasing*
 :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

> Now that's a project we can all get excited about.


H-E-<double hockey sticks> yeah!  :Wink:

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> anyone else with any ideas to the potential clue "prime time"?


Perhaps ESPN?  :Wink:

----------


## catch22

> Anyone else with any ideas to the potential clue "Prime Time"?


K&D/Prime Time Drilling Inc. | Facebook

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Anyone else with any ideas to the potential clue "Prime Time"?


Giant deion sanders statue?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> K&D/Prime Time Drilling Inc. | Facebook


I don't think a company with only 22 likes and two head men wearing t-shirts are gonna build a 30+ story tower, lol.  But it was a nice attempt ;-)

----------


## Steve

> i don't know about steve, but as a reader the mystery tower questions are starting to get old.


yes!

----------


## hoya

> yes!


So let me follow up with another one then.  :Smile: 

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being KD's new restaurant and 10 being Devon Tower, how excited are you?

----------


## Richard at Remax

Maybe Aubrey is continuing his love for real estate and is building a condo high rise

----------


## Steve

> So let me follow up with another one then. 
> 
> On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being KD's new restaurant and 10 being Devon Tower, how excited are you?


No deal is done. I won't get excited until a deal is done.

----------


## hoya

Dang you, Steve.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> No deal is done. I won't get excited until a deal is done.


Steve, if something falls through on the stage center site, does this company have backup locations or is this an all or nothing type deal?

----------


## okcpulse

I think at this point in time it is best for us to sit back, relax and let this deal run its course.  In the meantime, we have bigger fish to fry, like the implementation of MAPS 3 and keeping an eye on Project 180.  

We simply aren't going to hear anything until all parties involved are sure.  I quote Richard Dreyfuss in 'Jaws'.  "Look, I want to be sure, you want to be sure.  We all want to be sure."

----------


## Steve

> Steve, if something falls through on the stage center site, does this company have backup locations or is this an all or nothing type deal?


Keep your eyes on the Stage Center site - that's the key to everything right now.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Oh...my...gosh...what else?


Hello,

My name is Thundercitizen, 
I'm a mystery towerholic.

----------


## Praedura

Oy, he's cryptically scripting quatrains again!  :Eek:

----------


## Bellaboo

*
"11:41 a.m. Will this supposed new tower result in more new jobs to okc?

NewsOK 11:41 a.m. no and yes"*

This one throws me a bit........................Does this mean it's a local relocation ? Initially 'NO' to new jobs in OKC, then 'YES' as if it will grow and hire.

----------


## Snowman

> *
> "11:41 a.m. Will this supposed new tower result in more new jobs to okc?
> 
> NewsOK 11:41 a.m. no and yes"*
> 
> This one throws me a bit........................Does this mean it's a local relocation ? Initially 'NO' to new jobs in OKC, then 'YES' as if it will grow and hire.


Yea that one had me wondering too, the only other thing that a local relocation I was thinking it could imply was that it was moving more existing jobs to OKC like Boeing's recent relocation where there may not be new job openings

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yea that one had me wondering too, the only other thing that a local relocation I was thinking it could imply was that it was *moving more existing jobs to OKC like Boeing's recent relocation where there may not be new job openings*




I think you may have it with this. Jobs will be relocated from elsewhere, and if some folks do not relocate, then jobs will be created, or the company is in the process of expanding.

----------


## hoya

Actually I think Steve was responding to two questions at once.  The question before that was something else.

----------


## Steve

Hoya is correct.

----------


## hoya

> Keep your eyes on the Stage Center site - that's the key to everything right now.


To me, this indicates that the Stage Center site is the target of the first actor.  Others are waiting to see what they do.  Like the NBA draft, you get an idea of who you want but you can't finalize it until Portland officially passes up Michael Jordan/Kevin Durant.  Like I said earlier, I think Continental Resources has their sights set across the street from Stage Center where the Lunch Box sits.  That would be my guess.  But they won't make any move until they know for sure what this new company is going to do.

----------


## Just the facts

It is like this - but more complicated

----------


## SharkSandwich

> Hoya is correct.


Perhaps Steve is saying that a local company will be building the tower and not necessarily bringing new jobs.  However, there will be new jobs created through construction of the tower.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Perhaps Steve is saying that a local company will be building the tower and not necessarily bringing new jobs.  However, there will be new jobs created through construction of the tower.


Steve clarified it in post 3184 that it is YES to new jobs to OKC.

----------


## sroberts24

The answer to that question is obviously yes as towers take a lot of construction workers to build.

----------


## Bellaboo

> The answer to that question is obviously yes as towers take a lot of construction workers to build.


True, but I believe the reference was to a company that would fill the tower would be bringing or creating jobs in OKC.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> True, but I believe the reference was to a company that would fill the tower would be bringing or creating jobs in OKC.


This is the way I took it when I first read it.

----------


## ljbab728

I'm going to be out of town on vacation from March 23rd until March 30th with little access to internet.  I demand that no announcements take place during that time.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I'm going to be out of town on vacation from March 23rd until March 30th with little access to internet.  I demand that no announcements take place during that time.


Well hey, that's all part of the fun coming back isn't it? Come to see a new sky scraper being born? lol  :Wink:

----------


## okcpulse

On the contrary, I will be in Oklahoma City all week this week, so I will be picking up a copy of The Oklahoman each morning looking for a possible announcement.  Either way, I love having my old routine back any time I am in town (trip to 7-Eleven each morning for the paper and coffee).

----------


## ljbab728

> Well hey, that's all part of the fun coming back isn't it? Come to see a new sky scraper being born? lol


Nope, I want to be here when it happens.  I want to be the first on OKC Talk to criticize it.  LOL

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Nope, I want to be here when it happens.  *I want to be the first on OKC Talk to criticize it*.  LOL


Think you can beat Rover or Spartan???? lol I'm just kidding, we all love Rover aaaaannnnndddd Spartan   :Wink:

----------


## zookeeper

I'm still banking on a huge deal involving Sandridge and Shell with Shell in the U.S. bringing their office to a spanking new tower in Oklahoma City.

Meets International criteria
Lots of talk it's coming from Texas
This would be a BIG deal

----------


## Thundercitizen

Okay, we're all sure it's not Kerr McGee, right?

 :Smile:

----------


## Teo9969

> I'm still banking on a huge deal involving Sandridge and Shell with Shell in the U.S. bringing their office to a spanking new tower in Oklahoma City.
> 
> Meets International criteria
> Lots of talk it's coming from Texas
> This would be a BIG deal


I don't know...I feel like if Shell buys SD, then they'll build on the 4th/EKG plot.

If it's the Stage Center site, some sort of Conoco-Phillips idea makes sense.

Mentioned the idea of Shell to a senior manager at a local energy firm and he said he could definitely see it because of their holdings in KS and OK.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> The answer to that question is obviously yes as towers take a lot of construction workers to build.


I think you are correct.  A local company that builds a tower will create lots of new construction jobs.  Weren't there about 3000 people working on the Devon tower at one point?

----------


## Just the facts

I agree Sid.  The biggest error with Sandridge is that their tower was built in the geographic center of the block.  It should have been built adjacent to the street.  As for Chesapeake, that was one huge campus mistake and I don't know how you recover from that short of just doing as you suggest and saying - ooops.  The shear cost to maintain the acreage alone must be staggering.  The question becomes what do you do with what is there - private university maybe?

----------


## Bellaboo

> I think you are correct.  *A local company that builds a tower* will create lots of new construction jobs.  Weren't there about 3000 people working on the Devon tower at one point?


The Stage Center site is not being looked at (at least at this process) by a local company. Construction jobs are temporary.

----------


## Rover

Construction work is good work.  And though you may consider them temporary, getting those skills here to the city and keeping them here is a strong economic tool.  Putting local construction personnel to work on great paying jobs and luring more here would be great.

----------


## hoya

> Construction work is good work.  And though you may consider them temporary, getting those skills here to the city and keeping them here is a strong economic tool.  Putting local construction personnel to work on great paying jobs and luring more here would be great.


Those people will be hired regardless, as long as a tower gets built.  I think what people are talking about is the influx of new workers that a company moving here will bring.

----------


## Pete

I would bet a good number of construction workers have moved to OKC for various projects and then chosen to stay due to the constant flow of new development.

And there are several big things on the horizon...  Not only the Mystery Tower(s) but the convention center, streetcar, fairgrounds improvements, scores of hotels and apartments and of other stuff that hasn't even been announced.

----------


## Praedura

> I would bet a good number of construction workers have moved to OKC for various projects and then chosen to stay due to the constant flow of new development.
> 
> And there are several big things on the horizon...  Not only the Mystery Tower(s) but the convention center, streetcar, fairgrounds improvements, scores of hotels and apartments and of other stuff that hasn't even been announced.


OKC: continuous construction zone

----------


## s.hoff

From the OKC Central Chat on Friday:

11:41 a.m. Guest - Hmmm....could the Magic 8 ball then answer the question if there will be any announcement on Stage Center/tower by the end of March?  :Smile: 
11:41 a.m. Tom - Will this supposed new tower result in more new jobs to okc?
11:41 a.m. NewsOK - no and yes

From post #3183 by hoyasooner:

Actually I think Steve was responding to two questions at once. The question before that was something else.

From post #3184 by Steve:

Hoya is correct.

----------


## HOT ROD

can we put the 'no and yes' answer by Steve to a rest?

there were two questions asked, and Steve answered both with one response. I forget the first question (which was answered with the 'no') but the second question asked if the tower(s) would result in new jobs for OKC (which was answered 'yes'). 

I'm sure Steve was NOT indicating that the new jobs would be construction related, but instead they would be new office jobs in the tower(s). ... Think about it from a common sense pov, isn't that why a company would build a skyscraper (fill it with people working?).


I hope there soon is a landslide of development announcement; beginning with Shell+Sinopec and ConocoPhillips announcements then ending with Continental, OG&E, and MidFirst. Throw in Aubrey's new 5-star hotel-condo tower(s) and possibly a spec/multi-tenant office tower; along with a slew of retail filling in the existing and new storefronts.

----------


## Pete

I deleted a bunch of posts that started off in jest and then devolved into mean-spiritedness.

Let's please remember to be nice to one another, even if we may disagree.



Thanks, now back to obsessing about buildings that don't yet exist.   :Cool:

----------


## s00nr1

Honestly, I am kind of shocked with the connections some of us on the site have that we haven't discovered anything concrete about a project that is supposed to be revealed within 3 weeks. And I know we all love Steve here but he can't really get annoyed with people continually asking questions about the tower when he continues to hang bait in the form of small teased tidbits every week. All he had to say was "I know nothing concrete" and it more than likely would have been the end of it until a formal announcement. Now that doesn't mean I am opposed to these fun tidbits, I'm just saying that if you keep throwing breadcrumbs to the geese you're only going to attract many more coming for the whole loaf.

----------


## Bellaboo

I think Steve has been very forth coming about not 'spilling the beans' until the deal is finalized. He's had a little fun with the tidbits, and I believe he's pretty confident that it'll happen very soon. 

I give him credit, he's piked our interest to the point that something cool is about to happen.

I'll go out on a limb and guess we'll find something more concrete late next week, the 20th- 24th. 

And I have zero knowledge of this project.

----------


## Just the facts

> And I know we all love Steve here but he can't really get annoyed with people continually asking questions about the tower when he continues to hang bait in the form of small teased tidbits every week. All he had to say was "*I know nothing concrete*"


...and people would take that as a 'tidbit/bread crumb/small tease' that Cemex was the company.

----------


## dteagle

> I'll go out on a limb and guess we'll find something more concrete late next week, the 20th- 24th.


I very much hope you don't end up in traction.  I'm also eager for an announcement.

----------


## Pete

It is amazing that we haven't been able to figure out who this Mystery Company is that is set to announce a Mystery Tower.

Perhaps they've already been named but I can't put my finger on who this may be.


In a way, it's a bit reassuring that in this day and age that some things can still remain somewhat of a secret until people want the information out.

I hope it also means there is more great stuff happening behind the scenes that we don't yet know about.

----------


## Skyline

I thought that Steve said that the mystery tower company has not ever been mentioned in this "Mystery Tower" thread. That is now over 3000 posts of mystery discussion.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Honestly, I am kind of shocked with the connections some of us on the site have that we haven't discovered anything concrete about a project that is supposed to be revealed within 3 weeks. And I know we all love Steve here but he can't really get annoyed with people continually asking questions about the tower when he continues to hang bait in the form of small teased tidbits every week. All he had to say was "I know nothing concrete" and it more than likely would have been the end of it until a formal announcement. Now that doesn't mean I am opposed to these fun tidbits, I'm just saying that if you keep throwing breadcrumbs to the geese you're only going to attract many more coming for the whole loaf.


Excellent post!  I completely agree with everything you said.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> It is amazing that we haven't been able to figure out who this Mystery Company is that is set to announce a Mystery Tower.
> 
> Perhaps they've already been named but I can't put my finger on who this may be.
> 
> 
> In a way, it's a bit reassuring that in this day and age that some things can still remain somewhat of a secret until people want the information out.
> 
> I hope it also means there is more great stuff happening behind the scenes that we don't yet know about.


It is pretty surprising given how fast everyone knew about Devon's tower plans (though not the enormity of them) and continental's relocation. Those were both instate deals which probably allowed more frequenters of this board to have some inside information. Maybe the fact that no one here, outside of Steve, has more insight on this lends additional credibility to the out of state relocation theory.

----------


## Pete

Besides the awesome information that gets posted here, I get tons of emails and PM's from people whispering things they know but don't want to post.

And yet with this particular company, I'm hearing very little other than who it *won't* be.


So, that's even more reinforcement of the notion it is probably not a local company. I can assure you we have tons of posters/lurkers from all the major Oklahoma entities and I haven't heard anything from them.

----------


## BDP

> It is amazing that we haven't been able to figure out who this Mystery Company is that is set to announce a Mystery Tower.
> 
> Perhaps they've already been named but I can't put my finger on who this may be.
> 
> 
> In a way, it's a bit reassuring that in this day and age that some things can still remain somewhat of a secret until people want the information out.
> 
> I hope it also means there is more great stuff happening behind the scenes that we don't yet know about.


No doubt. If it is as significant as has been hinted at, then this company has done an amazing job of keeping things quiet, especially since something of that magnitude would certainly require several external entities that are usually harder to control. One reason for this could be that it is far from finalized and only those with direct interest in keeping it quiet are at the table at this point.

The success of keeping it quiet, though, kind of hints that it is not a relocation, imo, or, if it is one, that we would get a relocation announcement before a building announcement. Anything is possible, but it would be pretty impressive if there was an announcement of a relocation came out that goes as far as to say all of "we're moving to okc, we're going to build in this location, and it should be about this tall with x number of square feet". I wouldn't expect all of that to come out at once and to have not known more details before hand. But, amazingly, everything points to that actually happening right now...

----------


## HangryHippo

I wonder if this deal is actually close to not happening?  It's being kept extremely quiet, and with the turmoil at SandRidge and CHK, I just don't see how we're going to have a new company building something new here.  I guess I just have a gut feeling that this whole thing is going to fall through.

----------


## Pete

Steve seems very confident an announcement is imminent, and he never puts things out there unless he is pretty darn sure.


CHK actually seems to have stabilized and whatever happens at SandRidge it won't happen for a while.  Plus, they really don't occupy that much space downtown...  Just the one tower -- haven't even moved into the Braniff Building yet.

Worse case is that the SandRidge properties come on the market and even though that is highly unlikely any time soon, even if they did someone would snap them up quickly.  There is strong demand for quality office space downtown and that campus would make it easy to recruit yet another larger employer to the core.

----------


## Teo9969

I would imagine that the SD campus being vacated has 0% chance of happening in 2013. Seeing the process with CHK, it would take time just to figure out where SD is at enough to even consider a sale. Then if the sale does happen it would likely be late this year at the earliest making the actual move sometime in 2014 at the earliest.

----------


## HotStuff80

Perhaps a single story Burger King with a 500 foot spire?  (forgive me... I had to say it.)

----------


## pickles

> I wonder if this deal is actually close to not happening?  It's being kept extremely quiet, and with the turmoil at SandRidge and CHK, I just don't see how we're going to have a new company building something new here.  I guess I just have a gut feeling that this whole thing is going to fall through.


Some here seem to want to talk themselves out of any optimism for the sake of saving themselves a bit of potential disappointment.  Somebody is buying that site and building something large on it.  That is all but assured at this point.  Turmoil at Sandridge could complicate other transactions, I would think, but probably not something as advanced as this one.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Some here seem to want to talk themselves out of any optimism for the sake of saving themselves a bit of potential disappointment.  Somebody is buying that site and building something large on it.  That is all but assured at this point.  Turmoil at Sandridge could complicate other transactions, I would think, but probably not something as advanced as this one.


I highly doubt that this is "all but assured at this point".  It would be awesome if you're right though.

----------


## hoya

Things always have the potential to go bad.  Even the beginning of construction is no guarantee that it will be completed.  But right now what little information we have is good.  I'm trying not to get too invested in this until an announcement is made.  Then I'll let myself be really excited for a few days and I will wildly speculate on every other possible tower that might be built in the next few years.  This one will go here, that one will go there, etc.  Then I'll be cautiously optimistic that things will work out as announced and that nothing will go wrong, until construction begins and then I'll just be happy.

That's the hoya plan, anyway.

----------


## Thundercitizen

I will be emotionally torn to shreds should my mystery skyscraper not come to fruition soon. I will be crushed. 
I hardly know the names of my family members anymore...I spend every waking and working (quasi-working) hour checking this forum and imagining a new cityscape for my city.  I really need to up the dosage of my meds to stay coherent whilst I await another quatrain from our prophet, Steve. 

Sorry, my alter ego just reared its wishful head again.

----------


## BigD Misey

Xie Xie Steve!
 :Smile:

----------


## PhiAlpha

> No doubt. If it is as significant as has been hinted at, then this company has done an amazing job of keeping things quiet, especially since something of that magnitude would certainly require several external entities that are usually harder to control. One reason for this could be that it is far from finalized and only those with direct interest in keeping it quiet are at the table at this point.
> 
> The success of keeping it quiet, though, kind of hints that it is not a relocation, imo, or, if it is one, that we would get a relocation announcement before a building announcement. Anything is possible, but it would be pretty impressive if there was an announcement of a relocation came out that goes as far as to say all of "we're moving to okc, we're going to build in this location, and it should be about this tall with x number of square feet". I wouldn't expect all of that to come out at once and to have not known more details before hand. But, amazingly, everything points to that actually happening right now...


I think the fact that it has been so quiet makes it more likely to be a corporate relocation. It would cause a lot more shock and panic to a workforce to announce a big corporate relocation then someone deciding they are going to open a big office in another city. It could cause a lot of employee defections to other companies and other problems, and for no reason if it falls through. If you're going to announce something of that magnitude, you have to be sure. It's not the kind of thing you want rumors going around about or to make a premature announcement on. 

Also, continental bought their building about 6 months prior to their announcement. Similarly, the sc site could be purchased by a 3rd party and we may not find out anything for awhile.

----------


## boitoirich

> Xie Xie Steve!


I'm sure if Steve spoke Mandarin, he would reply -- in a cryptic quatrain no less -- with a hearty Bu Ke Qi.

----------


## Steve

Why do I get the feeling I'm going to end up getting blamed if things fall through???

----------


## Praedura

> Why do I get the feeling I'm going to end up getting blamed if things fall through???


You don't mind, do you? I mean, every community needs a fall guy.
 :Wink:

----------


## BigD Misey

> I'm sure if Steve spoke Mandarin, he would reply -- in a cryptic quatrain no less -- with a hearty Bu Ke Qi.


Do Canadian Birds chirp Chinese? And would 40 billion Chinese Canadian birds migrate south? (or even north from the Gulf?)

riddle me that!

Hows that for quatrain! Ill give the 8 ball a rest.

----------


## Pete

> Why do I get the feeling I'm going to end up getting blamed if things fall through???


We all appreciate what you've shared to date, Steve.

If this happens to come off the rails and blame gets aimed in your direction, I will summon the OKCTalk dogs of war to defend your honor!    :Fighting32:

----------


## ljbab728

> Honestly, I am kind of shocked with the connections some of us on the site have that we haven't discovered anything concrete about a project that is supposed to be revealed within 3 weeks.




Even Chinese hackers haven't got a clue yet.  That tells you how closely guarded this is.

----------


## Praedura

Who does Guy Smiley think will build our new downtown tower?



I think this is key.

----------


## BigD Misey

> Who does Guy Smiley think will build our new downtown tower?
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is key.


By the silence: 


NO GNewwws, is GOOD Gnewwws!

----------


## betts

I think the only problem with hints and such is that people get their hopes up and are extremely disappointed if things falls through.  Perhaps it's just better to say nothing until there's a done deal, because opening up your paper or Newsok.com to a big surprise is not a bad thing.

----------


## flintysooner

> I think the only problem with hints and such is that people get their hopes up and are extremely disappointed if things falls through.  Perhaps it's just better to say nothing until there's a done deal, because opening up your paper or Newsok.com to a big surprise is not a bad thing.


Or people, especially those who profess more than passing interest in development, might actually endeavor to understand the process.

----------


## Jesseda

Predictions. The Announcement will be made March 29th and the tower will be 38 floors and it will be a new U.S headquarters for an out of country company. anyone else like to predict.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Predictions. The Announcement will be made March 29th and the tower will be 38 floors and it will be a new U.S headquarters for an out of country company. anyone else like to predict.


that sounds good

----------


## DoctorTaco

Prediction: Consolidation of Shell's North American Onshore teams to Oklahoma City. They will retain their primary corporate HQ in Houston, with all the execs, R&D, US Offshore and certain international asset teams (other international teams being based in the Netherlands, Indonesia, etc.). OKC will be home to their rapidly growing unconventional gas and other North American onshore assets. This relocation might be concurrent with the closure of their New Orleans office and and overall corporate consolidation.

Problem with this prediction: It is hard to envision the above move bringing more than 2000-4000 employees to OKC. No small change, but maybe not enough to build a gleaming new 40 story tower.

----------


## Steve

> I think the only problem with hints and such is that people get their hopes up and are extremely disappointed if things falls through.  Perhaps it's just better to say nothing until there's a done deal, because opening up your paper or Newsok.com to a big surprise is not a bad thing.


Yes, that would be nice. But that's not the way the world works these days. Was I supposed to withhold from everybody that Mark Beffort, the man overseeing negotiations for the sale of Stage Center, was openly forecasting a new tower for downtown? Or that others were saying the same thing? Keep in mind, most of the tower discussion over the past few months has been generated by questions thrown at me and others.... 
I've said this before, I'll say it again: this is not like buying or building a house. This is a complicated transaction, and there are a lot of variables being thrown into the mix.

----------


## tillyato

> Prediction: Consolidation of Shell's North American Onshore teams to Oklahoma City. They will retain their primary corporate HQ in Houston, with all the execs, R&D, US Offshore and certain international asset teams (other international teams being based in the Netherlands, Indonesia, etc.). OKC will be home to their rapidly growing unconventional gas and other North American onshore assets. This relocation might be concurrent with the closure of their New Orleans office and and overall corporate consolidation.
> 
> Problem with this prediction: It is hard to envision the above move bringing more than 2000-4000 employees to OKC. No small change, but maybe not enough to build a gleaming new 40 story tower.


A 40 story tower wouldn't be built for 2000-4000 employees. The Devon tower is 50 stories and they have around 2000 employees in OKC. Especially if the new tower had a smaller footprint and/or a mixed use component, I could see a company building a 40 story tower for as few as 1000 employees.

----------


## betts

> Yes, that would be nice. But that's not the way the world works these days. Was I supposed to withhold from everybody that Mark Beffort, the man overseeing negotiations for the sale of Stage Center, was openly forecasting a new tower for downtown? Or that others were saying the same thing? Keep in mind, most of the tower discussion over the past few months has been generated by questions thrown at me and others.... 
> I've said this before, I'll say it again: this is not like buying or building a house. This is a complicated transaction, and there are a lot of variables being thrown into the mix.


Oh, I understand.  I rarely look at this thread, because I know if there is a tower it will get its own thread. As a supporter of Stage Center preservation, I don't really want to think about anything going there.  But the 130 pages of this thread show that there are some people pretty invested in the idea and I hate to see them disappointed if it comes to nothing. I'm going to be disappointed if it comes to something, but that's beside the point.

----------


## kevinpate

Steve, if it is any consolation, should things get derailed, I fully intend to blame the Not _This_ Tower coalition.

----------


## jedicurt

> Steve, if it is any consolation, should things get derailed, I fully intend to blame the Not _This_ Tower coalition.


I still intend to blame I.M. Pei... he has become my scapegoat for every problem with OKC...  terrible traffic on May? well it's because someone is following the Pei plan and it didn't say anything about fixing traffic on May!

----------


## bchris02

> I still intend to blame I.M. Pei... he has become my scapegoat for every problem with OKC...  terrible traffic on May? well it's because someone is following the Pei plan and it didn't say anything about fixing traffic on May!


Well to be fair, most of the urban renewal and revitalization from MAPS onward is simply rebuilding what was lost in the Pei Plan. OKC today, even with all the improvements, is a good 15-20 years behind where it would have been without I.M Pei.

I am hoping this tower happens. What I hope doesn't happen is it get derailed due to Stage Center preservationists, and then absolutely nothing cool is done with the Stage Center.

----------


## HangryHippo

Of all the reasons to obstruct a new tower, preserving the stage center should be the last one.

----------


## Praedura

> Predictions. The Announcement will be made March 29th and the tower will be 38 floors and it will be a new U.S headquarters for an out of country company. anyone else like to predict.


The Announcement will be made April 2nd - the tower will be 40 floors - it will be a local headquarters for an out of state company.

----------


## jedicurt

> The Announcement will be made April 2nd - the tower will be 40 floors - it will be a local headquarters for an out of state company.


April 5th - 42 floors - out of state company

----------


## MikeLucky

> Why do I get the feeling I'm going to end up getting blamed if things fall through???


Wait, are you saying it fell through???  There's no more deal for a tower, you say????


NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS... MOVE ALONG...






 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## catch22

The deal has weakened and he no longer feels confident in his earlier predictions. He is entering CYA mode.

----------


## Praedura

Less than 3 weeks left in March.

Longest... three weeks... ever

 :Frown:

----------


## adaniel

> The deal has weakened and he no longer feels confident in his earlier predictions. He is entering CYA mode.


I think some of you are reading WAY too much into every little comment he makes. Damn, I actually feel sorry for Steve at this point. You all realize he is just the messenger.  

I'm with others in taking a break from this thread. Its fun to speculate, not so fun to obsess and overanalyze.

----------


## Steve

> Wait, are you saying it fell through???  There's no more deal for a tower, you say????
> 
> 
> NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS... MOVE ALONG...


NO! I am absolutely NOT saying that.... Adaniel is right. Now go outside and enjoy some sunshine!

----------


## Bellaboo

Steve,

I think he was just teasing.

I think it's a true concensus that most of us want something great to happen to that site, and were being taught a little lesson in patience.

----------


## Steve

Yes, but Catch 22 wasn't....

----------


## BDP

> What I hope doesn't happen is it get derailed due to Stage Center preservationists, and then absolutely nothing cool is done with the Stage Center.


lol.

With the abundance of available property downtown, including a bunch that has NOTHING on it, not moving a company or not building a building just because that ONE site wasn't available would be ludicrous. In fact, I bet we could find a way for the city to GIVE them some land if they're going to drop hundreds of millions of dollars on a development.

Seriously, it's a nice corner, but it's not like it's in Manhattan or on the Chicago river. If it becomes unavailable for redevelopment, there's _plenty_ of other options for anyone who wants to be in OKC or anyone who needs to expand. In fact, at face value, it actually seems like a pretty big bonehead move to insist on tearing something down to build here, especially something that people are attached to.

----------


## Praedura

> ...Now go outside and enjoy some sunshine!


yes, but when I go outside I see the Devon Tower on the horizon and it makes me think of the Mystery Tower...
 :Wink:

----------


## MikeLucky

> Yes, but Catch 22 wasn't....


I was most definitely teasing, but I posted it in jest because I KNEW some jackwagon on this board would interpret it that way and be serious about it. lol

I equate it to how the fairer sex has an uncanny ability to "build bridges" when there isn't really one there...

Man: Wow, our gas mileage on this trip is quite a bit lower than it was when I made the trip by myself last time.
Woman:  Are you calling me fat?!?!

bridge building...  lol

----------


## hoya

My guess is that a purchase is made within the next two or three weeks, and then nothing is announced for a while.  "Stage Center sold to Comstar National Incorporated Holdings" or some other generic sounding company name.  Then in July a new tower is announced and we find out it was really Shell or Conoco or someone like that.  In the end we get something in the 600-700 ft range, with its design intended to stand apart from Devon.  Something about the architecture will be "wow cool" because if it's just a regular mirrored surface it'll just look like a smaller, less impressive Devon building, and you don't move to a new city and build a new tower just for that.

----------


## Steve

Wichita, forgive me for not highlighting Catch instead of you ... quite honestly, I'm pretty worn out right now...

----------


## Bellaboo

> Wichita, forgive me for not highlighting Catch instead of you ... quite honestly, I'm pretty worn out right now...


I hope you're worn out for working hard at the grindstone on the Mystery Tower story !!!   LOL

----------


## catch22

> Steve,
> 
> *I think he was just teasing.*
> 
> I think it's a true concensus that most of us want something great to happen to that site, and were being taught a little lesson in patience.




We all appreciate the hard work you have done on this project and the many others you cover for us. You are one of the last few real journalists in this state or even region, your hard work does not go unnoticed and perhaps we don't always give you enough thanks for your work.

Don't take it too seriously.  :Smile:

----------


## Steve

Thanks Catch. Not meaning to pick on you either. I've now worked more than two weeks straight without a break. ... I think I'll go to sleep now. Oh wait ... can't ... working on yet another CHK package ....

----------


## shawnw

So what's the over/under on floor count?

----------


## Bellaboo

> So what's the over/under on floor count?


If it's not drastically changed, the low end is 30 floors. My guess will be 38 - 42.

----------


## shawnw

> If it's not drastically changed, the low end is 30 floors. My guess will be 38 - 42.


In that case I'll take the under, though I want the over.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I'll take the over on anything taller than 36 stories cause any new tower has to beat the floor count of Cotter.  Until we can fill that gap between the two, only after will I take the under.

----------


## shawnw

Like I said I WANT the over. But I think it might be ambitious to expect this new tower to be 40. So, if I were betting, I'd bet on the under.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

That's why I'm gonna roll with 37...

----------


## BigD Misey

Lets build Turbinomics Tower. Now that would be OKCs unique draw like St Louis arch.
Elliott would be so proud!

----------


## s.hoff

> Lets build Turbinomics Tower. Now that would be OKCs unique draw like St Louis arch.
> Elliott would be so proud!


Something like this?
Preview of World's First Rotating Skyscraper - YouTube

----------


## jccouger

Rolls Royce parked outside Stage Center with a chauffeur. Gotta mean something, right?

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Rolls Royce parked outside Stage Center with a chauffeur. Gotta mean something, right?


If we can run the tag number we can find out who it is.  he he!

----------


## Pete

> Rolls Royce parked outside Stage Center with a chauffeur. Gotta mean something, right?


I'd say so!

Quick, somebody get over there and snap a photo of the passenger!

----------


## jn1780

Or he is just looking for somewhere free to park while he waits. lol

----------


## Praedura

> I'd say so!
> 
> Quick, somebody get over there and snap a photo of the passenger!


Gotcha!

Ok, managed to grab this photo before he stepped back into the car.



 :Wink:

----------


## G.Walker

My Prediction:

Floors: 40
Feet: 600' - 650' 
Site: Stage Center
Company: Boeing
Announcement: March 31, 2013 on the front page of the Sunday Oklahoman
Start Date: Spring 2014
Developer: Hines
Construction Firm: Flintco
Architect: Pickard Chilton
Price: $400 - $500 million

----------


## Jchaser405

> Gotcha!
> 
> Ok, managed to grab this photo before he stepped back into the car.


Laugh of the day!

----------


## metro

dude, did you at least see what STATE the plates were from? My prediction is it's still Continental despite the rumors otherwise, but it could be a Houston firm. I'll check my sources at CR and see if Hamm has a Rolls. Whomever it was, you'd think they'd be smart enough not to roll such high profile for such a secure mission/announcement.

----------


## Bellaboo

That Rolls is more than likely an executive chauffeur service. I doubt some big wig from out of town would be driven from where ever they are from. They'd show up on a private jet and then get driven around.

If this vehicle is related to the 'Mystery Tower', then my bet it's form out of state and could be from out of the country.

----------


## DowntownMan

> That Rolls is more than likely an executive chauffeur service. I doubt some big wig from out of town would be driven from where ever they are from. They'd show up on a private jet and then get driven around.


Must not be CLR...that would be unlike Hamm. Pretty sure he just has a nice pickup truck.

----------


## lasomeday

> Rolls Royce parked outside Stage Center with a chauffeur. Gotta mean something, right?


We saw the Japanese family get out.   They got out and went in Devon tower and up to vast.

----------


## Anonymous.

This is hilarious. I love you guys. 

>See nice car outside Stage Center.
>Stalk.
>Post about it on OKCTalk.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

"Hmm... I wonder if there's anything new on the Mystery Tower thread..."

Rolls Royce.

*facepalm*

----------


## BigD Misey

Ok...so no takers on Rand Elliotts Turbinomics tower, and the Jedi's want to throw IM Pie under the bus...
So, what about a nice Frank Gehry concept. 'What buildings look like in a carnival hall of mirrors' type thing?

----------


## YO MUDA

> Rolls Royce parked outside Stage Center with a chauffeur. Gotta mean something, right?


Oh thats just Booker T. He won the lottery a few months back. Now he dresses up like a chauffeur and parks downtown and fills out his racing forms.  :Smiley122:

----------


## warreng88

Steve just tweeted "White smoke indicating plans for new downtown tower are soon to be released." Thought it might go good on this thread.

----------


## Steve

Um, no, I never tweeted that (oy).
Keep in mind, a law firm pays to park their cars in that drive....

----------


## ljbab728

> Um, no, I never tweeted that (oy).
> Keep in mind, a law firm pays to park their cars in that drive....


Steve, you're always such a downer.  LOL

----------


## warreng88

> Um, no, I never tweeted that (oy).
> Keep in mind, a law firm pays to park their cars in that drive....


Well crap. I was just duped by an imitation Steve twitter account (yes there is one and it is Leve Stackmeyer) that was retweeted by Brianna Bailey. My mistake. Move along people, nothing to see here.

----------


## tillyato

> Well crap. I was just duped by an imitation Steve twitter account (yes there is one and it is Leve Stackmeyer) that was retweeted by Brianna Bailey. My mistake. Move along people, nothing to see here.


You know you've made it in the world when people start creating parody twitter accounts for you. Congrats on being a local celebrity Steve.

----------


## Just the facts

So I tossed and turned for 3 hours last night for nothing.  That's just great؟

----------


## GaryOKC6

> We saw the Japanese family get out.   They got out and went in Devon tower and up to vast.


Well Devon is working with a Japanese company called Sumitomo Corp

----------


## Anonymous.

AMD sold their Austin campus the other day. However they claim they will be leasing it. Doesn't seem like the type of company to move to OKC, but it would be cool to have a tech giant here.

----------


## metro

Maybe we can build AMD a crappy call center or warehouse on the river by Dell.............

----------


## HangryHippo

> Maybe we can build AMD a crappy call center or warehouse on the river by Dell.............


Like.  haha.

----------


## Dan

OGE Energy, CenterPoint Energy to combine pipeline assets for master limited partnership | News OK

Anyone care to lay odds on this announcement ultimately solving the mystery?

----------


## HangryHippo

I think this means Enogex is now headed to Houston.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Interesting.




> A general partner will manage the partnership with governance shared by CenterPoint Energy and OGE. The partnership's leadership team will be announced after the deal closes, *as will the location of its headquarters*.

----------


## Dan

I will start the bidding at 4/1.  I wonder what what the magic 8 ball says?

----------


## PhiAlpha

No it doesn't mean they are moving to Houston.

----------


## PhiAlpha

It does look to fit Steve's timeline though.

----------


## HangryHippo

> No it doesn't mean they are moving to Houston.


Please share more of your expert analysis.

----------


## Anonymous.

This is huge news. This has gotta be the tower. CenterPoint is a massive company. This new midstream company would be a substantial amount of employees collaborating together.

Here is CenterPoint Energys current tower in Houston:




If this doesn't mean the new partnership would be in OKC, then it very well could mean losing employees to Houston, but I really doubt it. The timing and everything is too coincidental and perfect.

----------


## Anonymous.

The only thing that makes me think this is not the Stage Center tower is Steve saying the announcement of a new tower would be around this time. But this partnership could take months to finalize. And the news clearly states that the announcement of the headquarters would be at the close of the deal.

----------


## Pete

Yep, this has got to be the tower.

Remember Enogex was already in Leadership Square and that building is owned by Mark Beffort who happens to be brokering the Stage Center sale.


And I still think OG&E is going to build a new HQ as well, just not on the Stage Center site.

----------


## Anonymous.

Couple days ago




> Yes, that would be nice. But that's not the way the world works these days. Was I supposed to withhold from everybody that Mark Beffort, the man overseeing negotiations for the sale of Stage Center, was openly forecasting a new tower for downtown? Or that others were saying the same thing? Keep in mind, most of the tower discussion over the past few months has been generated by questions thrown at me and others.... 
> I've said this before, I'll say it again: this is not like buying or building a house. This is a complicated transaction, and there are a lot of *variables* being thrown into the mix.


Mark, you sly dog, you! 


Replace "variables" with companies and this is gold.

----------


## G.Walker

I don't think this will result in tower for Stage Center. Remember there was always the notion than more than one  tower are in the works. Maybe this is the rumored new OGE tower everybody was referring to, but they didn't have all the facts. I think whatever company is behind tower for Stage Center will be a surprise to most people.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Please share more of your expert analysis.


Not expert analysis by any means, but I would say at least reasonably informed. It isn't the 80/90s, not every energy company is looking to move to Houston. It's a merger of subsidiaries and OKC is central to the core of both companies' pipeline assets, the natural gas industry, and the United States in general. When companies like ConocoPhillips and Kerr McGee moved to Houston, it was at least partially due to the rise of their international and Gulf of Mexico assets and refinery proximity as they were both integrated oil companies. OGE/Enogex and CenterPoint are natural gas transportation and utility companies dealing solely in a domestic asset with OKC being at the center of a heavy natural gas producing state in the middle of several natural gas producing states, and in the middle of the country's pipeline infrastructure. You could even through wind energy in there as OK is a leading generator of that as well. It would be cool if it was a complete relocation of CenterPoint and not just the pipeline spinoff, but I would gladly take it either way.

----------


## Dan

Key sentence from the article Sid posted:

"*CenterPoint Energy and OGE Energy will hold 40 percent and 60 percent interests, respectively, in the incentive distribution rights of the general partner*."

So the overall MLP interests are 59% centerpoint, but (unless this is a typo), OGE owns 60% of the general partnership (read: controlling management?) interest?  Seems pretty favorable to OKC if I'm reading that right. 

Hopefully a hardworking OKC reporter or two can focus on clarifying the impact of this provision... In the meantime,  I'm taking my odds off the board.

----------


## s00nr1

Anyone else plan to listen in with me?




> Joint Conference Call and Webcast Detail
> 
> CenterPoint Energy and OGE Energy will hold a conference call tomorrow, March 15 at 10:30 a.m. Central time/11:30 Eastern. The telephone number is (800) 653-1761, domestic, or (706) 645-9680, outside the U.S.  The conference ID number is 19799901 and the leader is Carla Kneipp. 
> 
> A replay of the call can be accessed approximately two hours after completion of the call and will be available through Friday, March 22, 2013, at 6 p.m. Central time. To access, dial (855) 859-2056, domestic, or (404) 537-3406, outside the U.S. The conference ID number 19799901.
> 
> CenterPoint Energy and OGE Energy will also provide a live, audio webcast of the conference call, which can be accessed at CenterPointEnergy.com or OGE.com.  Click on the Investors tab and the link, “Joint Announcement.”  The webcast will be archived on each company’s website for at least one year.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I don't think this will result in tower for Stage Center. Remember there was always the notion than more than one  tower are in the works. Maybe this is the rumored new OGE tower everybody was referring to, but they didn't have all the facts. I think whatever company is behind tower for Stage Center will be a surprise to most people.


How is this not a surprise to most people?

----------


## s00nr1

> How is this not a surprise to most people?


+1 -- we are talking about an employee count in the thousands for this MLP and a tower that could come close to the size of Devon.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> +1 -- we are talking about an employee count in the thousands for this MLP and *a tower that could come close to the size of Devon*.


Perhaps bigger.

----------


## s00nr1

> Perhaps bigger.


Haha perhaps......but I would personally take 2 30-story towers instead of a 60-story tower.

----------


## Dan

> "CenterPoint Energy will own 59 percent of the joint venture, OGE Energy will own 28 percent, and ArcLight will own 13 percent."
> 
> CenterPoint plans $11B midstream joint-venture MLP - Houston Business Journal


So, in case i wasn't clear, in a limited partnership, the general partner basically runs things -- day to day management --that's why I flagged in my last post that it was weird that the general partner interests were 60% OGE, while the overall MLP interest was 59% CenterPoint.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> The only thing that makes me think this is not the Stage Center tower is Steve saying the announcement of a new tower would be around this time. But this partnership could take months to finalize. And the news clearly states that the announcement of the headquarters would be at the close of the deal.


In response to a tower question, Steve said: "I believe an announcement will occur within the next 30 days." "An announcement" could just as easily mean an announcement that they are moving their HQ here as it could a new tower design or something.This could even be the extent of the announcement that we get within that time period. Also, Sid's article indicates that they want to close the deal in the second or third quarter of this year so that still could be pretty close.

http://newsok.com/steve-lackmeyer-an...rticle/3760305

----------


## DowntownMan

I now feel sorry for Steve as you know almost every question he gets tomorrow will be relating to this.

----------


## bchris02

> Haha perhaps......but I would personally take 2 30-story towers instead of a 60-story tower.


I would take either, as long as the tower(s) are taller than the Chase tower.

A long time ago I heard OG&E was planning a tower taller than the Devon tower.  Wouldn't it be something if OKC could get a 1,000 footer?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Please share more of your expert analysis.


Also see these maps of the US natural gas pipeline network to further support my last post. Especially interesting is the map showing major transportation lines overlaid on a map of major US has producing basins.

EIA - Natural Gas Pipeline Network - Combined Natural Gas Transportation Maps

----------


## s00nr1

You're right, I wouldn't complain if it was only one supertall if it were 1,000 feet. Otherwise, give me 2 smaller towers  :Smile: 




> I would take either, as long as the tower(s) are taller than the Chase tower.
> 
> A long time ago I heard OG&E was planning a tower taller than the Devon tower.  Wouldn't it be something if OKC could get a 1,000 footer?

----------


## HangryHippo

> The challenge and strength of $CNP is that they can get our gas to market.  So local companies with holdings will benefit from this.  I really can't say more but there are likely more announcements forthcoming as companies capitalize on this.  This will shake smaller companies free and if the MLP locates here, will attract more industry services to OKC.  It will also simply keep more of the profits here as well.


Sid, we don't even know if they're coming here. Don't you think this is putting the horse in front of the cart?

----------


## s00nr1

I'm not sure how I'm going to feel when the Mystery Tower thread is left behind and a new "CNP/Enogex Tower" thread is created.

----------


## Zack232

I'm trying my hardest not to get excited about this, just in case it's nothing. But I've been anticipating an announcement for so long, and the fact this seems highly related is making me antsy. I know it's just a tower, but I don't think I'm going to be able to sleep. haha

----------


## Naptown12713

> I would take either, as long as the tower(s) are taller than the Chase tower.
> 
> A long time ago I heard OG&E was planning a tower taller than the Devon tower.  Wouldn't it be something if OKC could get a 1,000 footer?


Save the 1000 footer for that hip city of Tulsa!

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> So, in case i wasn't clear, in a limited partnership, the general partner basically runs things -- day to day management --that's why I flagged in my last post that it was weird that the general partner interests were 60% OGE, while the overall MLP interest was 59% CenterPoint.


Dont' worry, I observed your post correctly, I just didn't know how to respond.  :Wink: 




> I'm not sure how I'm going to feel when the Mystery Tower thread is left behind and a new "CNP/Enogex Tower" thread is created.


It will still exist..considering that there's the possibility of more towers.




> Save the 1000 footer for that hip city of Tulsa!


Screw that!

----------


## Bellaboo

> Here is another possibility - the oil industry is in the process of spinning off their midstream operations into seperate entities. I think CHK did this and moved them to the Central Park buildings. 
> *Maybe it's possible that some big company is relocating their MLP to the SC site ??*


I know I spew some crap some times, but I spewed the MLP possibilities 10 pages back.

----------


## Rover

> Sid, we don't even know if they're coming here. Don't you think this is putting the horse in front of the cart?


Shouldn't the horse go before the cart?

----------


## s00nr1

> Shouldn't the horse go before the cart?


I laughed.  :Smile:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I know I spew some crap some times, but I spewed the MLP possibilities 10 pages back.


What does OG&E have to do with the Mississippi Lime Play?

----------


## bchris02

> Save the 1000 footer for that hip city of Tulsa!


I think a couple of years ago there was talk of a 1200 footer in Tulsa but it never materialized.

The next building boom is in OKC.  I don't see anything on the horizon in Tulsa.

----------


## Bellaboo

> What does OG&E have to do with the Mississippi Lime Play?


Gas and Oil. Enogex is an energy production company. The Mississippi Lime is listed in their assets.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> What does OG&E have to do with the Mississippi Lime Play?


MLP = Master Limited Partnership, but Enogex does likely transport gas from the Mississippian play.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I think a couple of years ago there was talk of a 1200 footer in Tulsa but it never materialized.
> 
> The next building boom is in OKC.  I don't see anything on the horizon in Tulsa.


Agreed. I also think it would be cool fior a 1000+ ft tower.

----------


## Soonerus

The announcement is next week...

----------


## Thundercitizen

> The announcement is next week...


In 30 minutes, next week is 2 days away.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Gas and Oil. Enogex is an energy production company. The Mississippi Lime is listed in their assets.





> MLP = Master Limited Partnership, but Enogex does likely transport gas from the Mississippian play.


Thank you guys...I read that "Master Limited Partnership" part.  I just didn't put one and one together.  With all the Mississippi Lime Play talk and Chesapeake selling their assets in the area, this merger, the mystery tower talk and all, it's hard to keep everything straight.  When I hear OG&E, I think of coal coming down the line from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming and going straight to the Red Rock factory which then sends power through the transmission lines into my house.  I guess that's the elementary view of OG&E, lol.

----------


## Praedura

> Shouldn't the horse go before the cart?


Not if the cart had one of those rear-horse drives.
 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Since this is the speculation thread, I don't mind posting 'speculation' but I'm being told more announcements are coming.


From the same groups or others? Large or small?

----------


## s00nr1

Haha now sid is taking cues from Steve with the cryptic posts. 




> Since this is the speculation thread, I don't mind posting 'speculation' but I'm being told more announcements are coming.

----------


## Praedura

> Since this is the speculation thread, I don't mind posting 'speculation' but I'm being told more announcements are coming.


wow... this is cool

----------


## Praedura

This is a VERY, VERY strange day!

----------


## hoya

Perhaps Stage Center will be the site for more than one tower.  I think Steve mentioned that some plans for redevelopment went all the way down to Reno.  That would be impressive.  I think it would also be the final nail in the coffin for a new convention center to be on the southern border of the Myriad Gardens.  The asking price for that land would skyrocket, and the temptation to eventually have all four sides of the park bordered by big nice towers would be to much to resist.

It's probably because I'm excited, but I could see this being a catalyst for a huge construction boom in OKC.  I think even conservatively, we're looking at 3 or 4 new towers going up within the next 5 years or so.  If that is the case, more companies will come.

----------


## s00nr1

You could always PM me with the info and then I could post it. Just a thought  :Wink: 




> I'm in a difficult position because I don't want to breach trust.  And it's family, so there you have it.  But said person told me after this news broke that that person was told more news would break soon after this MLP was announced.  Beyond that, I'm just going to leave it up to speculation. This is one of those situations where using my real name isn't handy.

----------


## hoya

> I'm in a difficult position because I don't want to breach trust.  And it's family, so there you have it.  But said person told me after this news broke that that person was told more news would break soon after this MLP was announced.  Beyond that, I'm just going to leave it up to speculation. This is one of those situations where using my real name isn't handy.


Send Pete a private message.  In a few days he'll be like "oh I heard this from a source".  And no one will ever know...

----------


## s00nr1

There are a couple of OKCTalk regulars who are going to wake up in the morning, see that this thread has exploded overnight, and then have a WTF moment.

----------


## Praedura

Ok, so CenterPoint Energy and OG&E are creating a NEW energy company that will start out with $11 billion in assets (ELEVEN BILLION!) and we are all expecting this new company to HQ here in OKC at the stage center site. And in the process, build a new tower at least the equal (if not bigger) than Devon Tower.

My head is spinning....

Still spinning...

My head has just spun 360 degrees around....

Whoa.

----------


## Praedura

You have now entered...

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Ok, so CenterPoint Energy and OG&E are creating a NEW energy company that will start out with $11 billion in assets (*ELEVEN BILLION*!) and we are all expecting this new company to HQ here in OKC at the stage center site. And in the process, build a new tower at least the equal (if not bigger) than Devon Tower.
> Whoa.


 Excellent.  Another Thunder owner/sponsor to take Chesapeake's place...or add to it.  Hello free agency and luxury tax!

----------


## Praedura

I thought I had a good imagination, but I did not think of this. 

This development... surprises me...

----------


## Praedura

> Excellent.  Another Thunder owner/sponsor to take Chesapeake's place...or add to it.  Hello free agency and luxury tax!


Heh, looking ahead there a bit? Remember, don't count your chickens before they're even zygotes!

----------


## shawnw

Does this new midstream thing with CLP/OGE create a sense of competition with Devon's recent midstream efforts and accelerate the possibility of them building a small tower for their midstream? Or do we think they have plenty of existing capacity for that?

Am I even making sense?  I don't know the terminology in this business... sorry...

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Should be a good one. 




> I dont have all the answers, but I dont sense that Oklahoma City is about to enter into another 1980s oil bust tail spin. The experts I talk to say that even the worst case scenarios with SandRidge and Chesapeake, which are far from certain to take place, can be overcome and absorbed, much as the city was able to recover quickly from the once unthinkable demise of Kerr-McGee. The momentum downtown, from what I can tell, is still in good shape.


OKC Central Live Chat 10 a.m. Today | OKC Central

----------


## G.Walker

Not to be a downer, but this new company can end up in Houston, they are building spec class A office space left & right, and CenterPoint Energy is headquartered there. I guess I am trying not to get my hopes up, until official announcement is made. I hope I am wrong...

----------


## Bellaboo

> Not to be a downer, but this new company can end up in Houston, they are building spec class A office space left & right, and Centerpoint Energy is headquartered there. I guess I am trying not to get my hopes up, until official announcement is made.


If you look at the physical attributes of this new company, (pipelines, natural resources, etc) the majority if not all is more mid-continent. It would make better sense to be in OKC.

----------


## Bellaboo

Now i'm wondering if the new MLP with Devon will be Mystery Tower #2...?

----------


## tillyato

> If you look at the physical attributes of this new company, (pipelines, natural resources, etc) the majority if not all is more mid-continent. It would make better sense to be in OKC.


Here is a map of the new MLP's combined assets:



From a geographic point of view, Oklahoma City would certainly be central to most of their assets. Also, A good deal of their customers are based out of Oklahoma City, such as Chesapeake and Devon, so maintaining a commercial presence here would make sense.

----------


## G.Walker

I have a feeling this might be the mystery tower & OGE tower people have been talking about. Steve mentioned that no one has guessed the right company for new tower, which makes sense because the company has not been created yet, lol. And we have pretty muched named every possible company it could be. People could have been confused that the rumored OGE tower was just for OGE and did not realize it could be part of a merger. So basically we knocked out two birds with one stone.

----------


## Decious

Well... gotta think the decision has already been made and that info is just being withheld because of various logistical reasons. I'm optimistic. Seems that the "tone" coming out of quotes from Enogex would be layered and colored a little differently if an exodus was planned. The people at Enogex know what this would mean for the city if a positive outcome arose and they know what it would mean were in a net negative. They've seen the way Devon and the other larger entities have been lauded and appreciated here. The overall tone fits in line with the hints that Steve has given... the confidence that Mark B has been speaking with etc. It also fits in terms of complexity. Multiple firms involved. I'm thinking a pseudo spec tower with an anchor tenant being this new MLP. I would think that they may already have commitments from other tenants as well. I have a good feeling about this. Why? Because as of yet there is no reason NOT to have a good feeling about it. IMO.


EDIT: Also... Steve has no doubt seen this thread since this came to light last night. He hasn't chimed in. That speaks volumes and is understandable... because ANYTHING he would say would be viewed as confirmation one way or another. He cannot give his voice to confirming something like this here. If correct, this is a story for the medium that employs him... from one or one hundred different angles. Just a thought. Maybe he's on strike concerning this thread. :-)

----------


## boitoirich

Right... What could possibly go wrong...

----------


## Decious

> Right... What could possibly go wrong...


Only everything. Ha ha! But I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Why live the emptiness twice? Lol! Happy now - disappointed later I'm cool with. Worrisome now - disappointed later is for the birds.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Not to be a downer, but this new company can end up in Houston, they are building spec class A office space left & right, and CenterPoint Energy is headquartered there. I guess I am trying not to get my hopes up, until official announcement is made. I hope I am wrong...


It just doesn't make sense from an operational prospective, the bulk of their combined pipeline infrastucture would be in Oklahoma and Oklahoma is centrally located to all of the oil and gas plays listed as having access to on the news release as well as other states that CenterPoints midstream group serves.

----------


## bchris02

Yeah I'm not getting my hopes up until its confirmed this new company will be in OKC. It makes sense that it would but if Houston is building towers left and right it might make sense from a cost standpoint to locate there.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Shouldn't the horse go before the cart?


Haha, yes.  Too much beer with dinner.

----------


## jccouger

I don't know why you guys are so worried. The rolls Royce was parked in OKC, not Houston (just ignore the fact that there are probably 10 Rolls Royce driving around Houston at any given time)

Its completely OK to have your hopes up at this point, if you can't see the writing on the wall then pick up a copy of hooked on phonics.

----------


## Anonymous.

Steve has been online while this thread errupted last night. And he was on again this morning. Looks to be avoiding it 8).

Anyways his Live Chat thing is now open for questions as of 9:44am.

----------


## Bellaboo

[QUOTE=bchris02;627866]Yeah I'm not getting my hopes up until its confirmed this new company will be in OKC. It makes sense that it would but if Houston is building towers left and right* it might make sense from a cost standpoint to locate there.[/*QUOTE]

Disagree on this one. This midstream MLP is Mid-Continent, not Gulf coast. The asset base is 80% in Oklahoma, and the rest is close by, such as the Haynesville and Barnett shale plays. It makes more sense to be here, especially from an operational cost standpoint.

----------


## dankrutka

> I don't know why you guys are so worried. The rolls Royce was parked in OKC, not Houston (just ignore the fact that there are probably 10 Rolls Royce driving around Houston at any given time)


Can't tell if kidding....

----------


## HangryHippo

> Not expert analysis by any means, but I would say at least reasonably informed. It isn't the 80/90s, not every energy company is looking to move to Houston. It's a merger of subsidiaries and OKC is central to the core of both companies' pipeline assets, the natural gas industry, and the United States in general. When companies like ConocoPhillips and Kerr McGee moved to Houston, it was at least partially due to the rise of their international and Gulf of Mexico assets and refinery proximity as they were both integrated oil companies. OGE/Enogex and CenterPoint are natural gas transportation and utility companies dealing solely in a domestic asset with OKC being at the center of a heavy natural gas producing state in the middle of several natural gas producing states, and in the middle of the country's pipeline infrastructure. You could even through wind energy in there as OK is a leading generator of that as well. It would be cool if it was a complete relocation of CenterPoint and not just the pipeline spinoff, but I would gladly take it either way.


Phi, my apologies for being snarky earlier in the thread.  I'm not optimistic about the chances of this MLP locating in OKC, but you've made very sound arguments.  Thanks for the insight and I hope you're right.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Can't tell if kidding....


This...

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Guess which one is Steve.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Sid you got an honorable mention on the live chat this morning.  :Smile:

----------


## Mississippi Blues

Judging Steve's responses this morning so far, the CemterPoint & OG&E deal will be good for OKC.

----------


## Anonymous.

This company is smaller compared to the big dogs we are speaking of currently. But this company has said they are beginning a move to OKC from Canada.


Equal Energy Announces its Results for the Fourth Quarter and Year Ended December 31, 2012 - Yahoo! Finance




> The culmination of the strategic review process also resulted in the complete exit of Equal from its Canadian operations.  We are in the process of relocating our head office and transitioning management to Oklahoma City.  The combined interest and general and administrative cost savings total over $7 million as a result of the debt reduction and focus of our operations in Oklahoma.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> This company is smaller compared to the big dogs we are speaking of currently. But this company has said they are beginning a move to OKC from Canada.
> 
> 
> Equal Energy Announces its Results for the Fourth Quarter and Year Ended December 31, 2012 - Yahoo! Finance


Always nice gaining a company.

----------


## okcpulse

> Not to be a downer, but this new company can end up in Houston, they are building spec class A office space left & right, and CenterPoint Energy is headquartered there. I guess I am trying not to get my hopes up, until official announcement is made. I hope I am wrong...


Where?  I work in downtown Houston and at this time there are not any major projects underway.  They finished a class A tower two years back, and Hess recently completed their new tower, but outside of that, towers are not going up left and right.

----------


## Pete

I'm very sure this newly-formed company will be in OKC, not Houston.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Phi, my apologies for being snarky earlier in the thread.  I'm not optimistic about the chances of this MLP locating in OKC, but you've made very sound arguments.  Thanks for the insight and I hope you're right.


No worries, I was typing from a cell phone so I didn't want to add all the back up until I got home. Typing large amounts of text on this board from an iPhone can get incredibly frustraiting.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I'm very sure this newly-formed company will be in OKC, not Houston.


So is Steve. He's had several questions about the chances of Houston gaining a company & OKC losing one & every time he says "I'm not worried".

----------


## Dan

Pete:  Please explain why you're so sure?

----------


## Pete

> Pete:  Please explain why you're so sure?


Let's just say that people who know are sure that this will be an OKC-based company.

It also makes total logical sense for a number of reasons.

----------


## HangryHippo

> No worries, I was typing from a cell phone so I didn't want to add all the back up until I got home. Typing large amounts of text on this board from an iPhone can get incredibly frustraiting.


You're not kidding.  And that's if I can get the reply function to even work on my iPhone.

----------


## HangryHippo

So, does OG&E still want to build new digs as well or was the rumor about OG&E scouting space related to this MLP?  If Continental expands and SandRidge stays put, we're going to see some pretty incredible growth downtown here in the not too distant future.

----------


## Pete

Remember, OG&E and Enogex are already in completely different buildings and are separate in pretty much every way.

I would see a new HQ for the new Enogex MLP and another for OG&E HQ.

But it's also possible they may be looking to combine. If so, I don't think it would be on the Stage Center site, as that's too high profile and controversial for OG&E.

----------


## Praedura

Mayor of Liberal, Kansas - Tim Long - may move to OKC:

Mayor Long may be moving to OKC

In his letter to the community:




> we are prepared to announce the possibility of bringing in a new majority partner for our family-owned business, 
> Panhandle Oilfield Services, which could result in a relocation for us in the Oklahoma City area.


Not sure of the significance of this, but it's interesting. Panhandle Oilfield Services is already in OKC, but I don't know who the new majority partner is.

----------


## AP

Is anyone else listening in on this conference call?

----------


## HangryHippo

Anything good?

----------


## Praedura

> Anything good?


Probably so laden with corporate-ese speak that it's difficult to say.
 :Wink:

----------


## tillyato

> Anything good?


Most of the questions are from investors or financial consultants, so the focus has been on tax issues, earnings potential, EBITDA, etc.

----------


## Skyline

I didn't see any cryptic messages from steve's chat today in regards to the "mystery".

Next question is .....  what factual media outlet will break this story first? 

And will the Houston media beat Okc with the scoop?

----------


## Skyline

Today was my first time to log in to the chat. I didn't ask any questions but only as an observer.  I'm sure the chat was a good idea when it first started but, I don't see anything that would make me return for another visit.

----------


## ljbab728

> Just a small note. I love the chat Steve does, but if every asks the same question about the mystery tower, so that he gets 10 questions about it each week, it doesn't reflect well (in my humble opinion) on our ability to show some self-control.  A lot of the questions are answered and then asked again. Scroll up and read through answered questions.
> 
> Frankly, I enjoy the chats but a few people are pretty much asking 'questions' that go like this... "This is my opinion on x (with a tone). What do you think about that Steve?"  
> 
> I hope we don't run people off or make these less valuable because of that. I think Steve should strictly stick with one hour and if you don't have a useful question, it gets skipped.  Just my .02.  I can completely understand why these chats are starting to get old for Steve.  
> 
> /rant



Sid, you may be right, but what I think happens sometimes is that someone types a question which is similar to a previous question because at the time they type it the previous question hasn't shown up yet in the chat window.  Or else they could just be inconsiderate jerks who don't read all of the previous questions first.  LOL

----------


## adaniel

> Today was my first time to log in to the chat. I didn't ask any questions but only as an observer.  I'm sure the chat was a good idea when it first started but, I don't see anything that would make me return for another visit.


I will agree the chat quality has deteriorated. Too many of the questions are whiny (Tulsa bars are better than OKC's blah blah blah), stupid (Are you glad that fist pumps are dying out?), or offensive (What does your daddy do-mind you Mr. Lackmeyer's father recently passed). And yes, the mystery tower questions are absolutely played out at this point. 

It might be best in the future for people to submit questions and have Steve select them. Let me say that the chats are the highlight of my Friday and I am so glad that Mr. Lackmeyer volunteers his time for these. It just might need some tweeking to prevent the increased "trolling" I've seen lately.

----------


## BoulderSooner

The moderator gets to/can chose which ? Are posted in the chat

----------


## Just the facts

> The moderator gets to/can chose which ? Are posted in the chat


No.  You could probably type anything and it will show up.  Steve does respond to most questions/comments but he does let some go by without comment.  While the chats are informative to a degree, the real value to Steve (and to us ultimately) is that he gets a sense of what us, the customers, are interested in so he can provide us with the news and stories we care most about.

----------


## Rover

I would guess there is a short delay and that the moderator can delete rude, slanderous, obscene, or otherwise offensive posts to the chat, just as there is a delay on most "live" radio.  There are always verbal terrorists out there.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> No.  You could probably type anything and it will show up.  Steve does respond to most questions/comments but he does let some go by without comment.  While the chats are informative to a degree, the real value to Steve (and to us ultimately) is that he gets a sense of what us, the customers, are interested in so he can provide us with the news and stories we care most about.


No what I posted is 100%true.  Now what they chose to delete is their choice

----------


## catch22

There is a long delay. The moderator posts one question at a time. If not, the posts would keep coming faster than Steve could respond.

----------


## Just the facts

> I would guess there is a short delay and that the moderator can delete rude, slanderous, obscene, or otherwise offensive posts to the chat, just as there is a delay on most "live" radio.  There are always verbal terrorists out there.


There is a 30 minute delay which is why 10 people ask the same question.  At one point today it was closer to a 40 minute delay.

----------


## Lafferty Daniel

Sorry if this has been asked before:

If/when this Stage Center deal goes down, is California Ave going to be restored to run along the south side of the Stage Center block?

----------


## HangryHippo

> The moderator gets to/can chose which ? Are posted in the chat


Just today, Steve said that he was "the only guy in the kitchen."  He chose what was displayed today.  It's his choice, but maybe he's had a moderator or someone editing things in the past.  But it appears to be Steve's discretion that rules the roost in these chats.

----------


## jedicurt

> Sorry if this has been asked before:
> 
> If/when this Stage Center deal goes down, is California Ave going to be restored to run along the south side of the Stage Center block?


that all depends upon the deal... so no one knows at this point.

----------


## Just the facts

> Sorry if this has been asked before:
> 
> If/when this Stage Center deal goes down, is California Ave going to be restored to run along the south side of the Stage Center block?


I sure hope so.  A terminal view of the MBG tube (both day and night) is far better than a terminal view of the back of a building.

----------


## jccouger

I really hope it doesn't obscure the view of the Myriad Gardens from California Ave, re opening that grid would be fanfreakingtastic

----------


## Lafferty Daniel

> that all depends upon the deal... so no one knows at this point.


Right, I didn't know if Steve had ever mentioned anything about this since he knows of a potential deal and if that deal included the entire block as it is or if they were going to split it up.

----------


## dankrutka

> I will agree the chat quality has deteriorated. Too many of the questions are whiny (Tulsa bars are better than OKC's blah blah blah), stupid (Are you glad that fist pumps are dying out?), or offensive (What does your daddy do-mind you Mr. Lackmeyer's father recently passed). And yes, the mystery tower questions are absolutely played out at this point. 
> 
> It might be best in the future for people to submit questions and have Steve select them. Let me say that the chats are the highlight of my Friday and I am so glad that Mr. Lackmeyer volunteers his time for these. It just might need some tweeking to prevent the increased "trolling" I've seen lately.


I think you guys are being a little picky. The bar district issue was a legitimate topic and certainly as worthy of discussion as a 50th mystery tower question. The "daddy" question was a line from a famous movie and not intended as mean, just silly (not that that makes it a good question). 2 hours is just too long of a chat time, especially when Steve is limited in answering a lot of questions.

----------


## bchris02

> I think you guys are being a little picky. The bar district issue was a legitimate topic and certainly as worthy of discussion as a 50th mystery tower question. The "daddy" question was a line from a famous movie and not intended as mean, just silly (not that that makes it a good question). 2 hours is just too long of a chat time, especially when Steve is limited in answering a lot of questions.


I agree. This is something that is necessary for OKC to improve on because its a quality of life issue and necessary for retaining and attracting young professionals. I know a few young professionals in OKC who take weekend trips to Tulsa for its bar/pub scene which they claim is more sophisticated. This is a sensitive issue for a lot of people, but OKC is a good deal larger than Tulsa so there is no reason it shouldn't have equal or superior bar/pub districts for a variety of nightlife preferences.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I think you guys are being a little picky. The bar district issue was a legitimate topic and certainly as worthy of discussion as a 50th mystery tower question. The "daddy" question was a line from a famous movie and not intended as mean, just silly (not that that makes it a good question). 2 hours is just too long of a chat time, especially when Steve is limited in answering a lot of questions.


+1

----------


## AP

> I think you guys are being a little picky. The bar district issue was a legitimate topic and certainly as worthy of discussion as a 50th mystery tower question. The "daddy" question was a line from a famous movie and not intended as mean, just silly (not that that makes it a good question). 2 hours is just too long of a chat time, especially when Steve is limited in answering a lot of questions.


I don't think it has anything to do with being picky. The chat has gotten out of hand with all of the stupid questions that get asked. Who cares if the daddy question is from a movie and was just being silly, no one reads those chats to see people ask totally unneccesary questions. We read them to get information about what's going on downtown.

adaniel, I agree. I really enjoy the chats as well and also wish he would just hand select the questions.

----------


## Just the facts

> I think you guys are being a little picky. The bar district issue was a legitimate topic and certainly as worthy of discussion as a 50th mystery tower question.


I think the problem is that in the US for the most part people think of a bar as place you get so drunk you can't walk.  They need to think more of a European pub, where yes - you can get drunk, but it is more a social hangout without social status playing any part.  Just people coming together to enjoy each others company.

Third Place

Third place - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





> The third place (also known as third space) is a term used in the concept of community building to refer to social surroundings separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. In his influential book The Great Good Place, Ray Oldenburg (1989, 1991) argues that third places are important for civil society, democracy, civic engagement, and establishing feelings of a sense of place.
> 
> Oldenburg calls one's "first place" the home and those that one lives with. The "second place" is the workplace — where people may actually spend most of their time. Third places, then, are "anchors" of community life and facilitate and foster broader, more creative interaction. All societies already have informal meeting places; what is new in modern times is the intentionality of seeking them out as vital to current societal needs. Oldenburg suggests the following hallmarks of a true "third place":
> 
> Free or inexpensive
> Food and drink, while not essential, are important
> Highly accessible: proximate for many (walking distance)
> Involve regulars – those who habitually congregate there
> Welcoming and comfortable
> ...

----------


## HangryHippo

> I don't think it has anything to do with being picky. The chat has gotten out of hand with all of the stupid questions that get asked. Who cares if the daddy question is from a movie and was just being silly, no one reads those chats to see people ask totally unneccesary questions. We read them to get information about what's going on downtown.
> 
> adaniel, I agree. I really enjoy the chats as well and also wish he would just hand select the questions.


Thankfully, Steve is not unnecessarily censoring the transcripts.  The questions may only be unnecessary to you.  I hope the chats continue as they are.

----------


## OKCRT

> I didn't want to derail the thread. But since most of the questions were about the tower I thought I'd just drop it here.


Came here he to get info on the new tower and now I just want to go have a drink. Think I'll just stay here and drank.

----------


## lasomeday

So, it will take a year to get the OGE/Centerpoint off the ground and running.  That timeline plays well in building a new tower for the company or them committing to lease in a new tower.  They may just use OGE or Centerpoint's office space until they get their own place.

Also did you see Phillips 66 is also doing an MLP IPO.  I wonder if we could get that too.  Then if Devon does an MLP, we could be the new MLP place to be for midstream companies already having Chesapeake's spinoff MLP.

----------


## soonerfan_in_okc

would this new company be made up of staff from OGE & Centerpoint? how would that all work out? I don't really have an idea about the characteristics of an mlp

----------


## PhiAlpha

It would be made up of enogex and centerpoint's midstream group.

----------


## G.Walker

OGE Energy, CenterPoint Energy shares rise on pipeline partnership deal | News OK

According to the article...the new MLP name and location of headquarters will be revealed before the transaction is done, so we should have more details soon.  However, the tone of Alford's comments suggests that there will be little change in operations here in Oklahoma City, which leads me to think this might not be as grand as we want it to be, and no new tower.

----------


## Bellaboo

> OGE Energy, CenterPoint Energy shares rise on pipeline partnership deal | News OK
> 
> According to the article...the new MLP name and location of headquarters will be revealed before the transaction is done, so we should have more details soon.  However, the tone of Alford's comments suggests that there will be little change in operations here in Oklahoma City, *which leads me to think this might not be as grand as we want it to be, and no new tower*.


I took it as the exact opposite. As they said very little job overlap between the two entities, and that Enogex will not lose employees. If it was going to Houston, there would have been a loss. I felt like when they combine, the midstream employees would go to the new HQ, and from Steve's chat yesterday, it would be here. Remember, 3 or 4 times, he said he was not worried about it locating to Houston.

----------


## shawnw

> Sorry if this has been asked before:
> 
> If/when this Stage Center deal goes down, is California Ave going to be restored to run along the south side of the Stage Center block?


As much as I would like this, there's public art that I'm not sure can be move there at California and Walker...

----------


## lasomeday

> Remember, OG&E and Enogex are in two different, not ideal locations.  There is synergy within OG&E and it's subsidiary, to relocate. Unless the MLP is going to locate on 50th & Lincoln, if it is OKC, they are going to have to build something in my opinion.


Sid oge/enogex do not have any offices on 50th and Lincoln.   They moved that office/people to leadership square about a year ago.......  So all of the office functions for enogex and oge are downtown.

----------


## lasomeday

So moving to a new tower would be cake!

----------


## DowntownMan

> So moving to a new tower would be cake!


So does this company replace enogex or is it just a branch of enogex that will basically expand??

----------


## G.Walker

Remember Beffort and company are still marketing and trying to sell Oklahoma Tower...

----------


## tillyato

> Ah, my mistake. I thought OGE staff moved to Leadership Square and Enogex took over the 50th building.


OGE has some space at Leadership Square, but still resides mainly in the OGE building downtown. Enogex moved all of its staff from Central Park to Leadership Square about this time last year. The Central Park buildings at 50th and Lincoln were sold to Chesapeake, and are now occupied by Access Midstream, the former Chesapeake MLP.

----------


## tillyato

> So does this company replace enogex or is it just a branch of enogex that will basically expand??


According to the investor presentation yesterday, the new MLP will combine all of CenterPoint's midstream assets with Enogex's assets in a new, single entity.

----------


## Anonymous.

I think it's going to go kinda like this.

Enogex disappears (as in new name as the MLP) and CenterPoint's midstream employees are sent/recruited to OKC as the new name of the MLP with Enogex's existing employees.

End result is massive amounts of employees for one new entity and thus they will need a new building for consolidation. This means Stage Center.

----------


## coov23

I just wanted to drop in and say hi. I figured I owed it to you all after 139 pages on a thread I started. Good read. Interesting scenarios. Keep it up. I read it everyday.

----------


## Praedura

Pic of Frankfurt skyline:



The tower in the center of the photo -- how about something like that for ours? Would work well with Devon Tower, methinks.

----------


## dankrutka

> I just wanted to drop in and say hi. I figured I owed it to you all after 139 pages on a thread I started. Good read. Interesting scenarios. Keep it up. I read it everyday.


Hey! Glad you said hi. I suspect, and Pete probably has stats on this, that there are a lot of lurkers who don't post, but read regularly. Welcome.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> Pic of Frankfurt skyline:
> 
> 
> 
> The tower in the center of the photo -- how about something like that for ours? Would work well with Devon Tower, methinks.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

This one?

Trianon (Frankfurt am Main) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



...or this one?

Messeturm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Frankfurt does have a nice skyline.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/frawolf77/8144246484/

----------


## Dustin

Something like the BOA Center tower in Charlotte would be awesome!  It's my second favorite skyscraper right behind Devon!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I like a pointed skyscraper but I want to see something as unique as possible.

----------


## Dustin

Can't get much more pointed than this



lol

----------


## zookeeper

> I just wanted to drop in and say hi. I figured I owed it to you all after 139 pages on a thread I started. Good read. Interesting scenarios. Keep it up. I read it everyday.


If you look at the stats on the entire forum page, it lists the views of each thread. More than it being 139 pages long is that it's closing in on a quarter million views!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I actually like Turbonomic Tower but most here seem to hate it.

----------


## HangryHippo

I agree with you, Sid

----------


## stlokc

Although I drop in from time to time (mostly to check if there is any REAL news), I've avoided posting in this thread - because quite frankly it's all a little ridiculous. But I do really like that second Frankfurt tower. If there is to be a tower, I like the idea of something that blends our traditional skyline with the jarring majesty of the Devon Tower. Ideally, the best looking tower would be something - say - halfway between the height of Devon and Chase with glass and traditional elements. 

I'm sure Steve L just laughs and hangs his head at everything written over lo these many pages. I'd still rather see ten five story buildings spread across MidTown in infill lots than any kind of tower but I suppose we'll all see whatever we shall see soon enough!

----------


## OKCRT

> Although I drop in from time to time (mostly to check if there is any REAL news), I've avoided posting in this thread - because quite frankly it's all a little ridiculous. But I do really like that second Frankfurt tower. If there is to be a tower, I like the idea of something that blends our traditional skyline with the jarring majesty of the Devon Tower. Ideally, the best looking tower would be something - say - halfway between the height of Devon and Chase with glass and traditional elements. 
> 
> I'm sure Steve L just laughs and hangs his head at everything written over lo these many pages. I'd still rather see ten five story buildings spread across MidTown in infill lots than any kind of tower but I suppose we'll all see whatever we shall see soon enough!


I want 5 more towers started/finished within the next 5 years. Height needs to be between Chase and Devon or all taller than Devon. Don"t need and any shorter than Chase till after these next 5 are built.

----------


## stlokc

As long as we're at it, how about WANTING 5 towers to be started in calendar year 2013 - to hell with waiting 5 years! LOL. Not meaning to be flippant. I realize this thread is 90% about dreaming.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> i want 5 more towers started/finished within the next 5 years. Height needs to be between chase and devon or *all taller than devon*. *don"t need and any shorter than chase till after these next 5 are built*.


yes!!!!!!!!

----------


## dankrutka

> Although I drop in from time to time (mostly to check if there is any REAL news), I've avoided posting in this thread - because quite frankly it's all a little ridiculous.





> I want 5 more towers started/finished within the next 5 years. Height needs to be between Chase and Devon or all taller than Devon. Don"t need and any shorter than Chase till after these next 5 are built.


A _little_ ridiculous... On cue.

----------


## bchris02

> Although I drop in from time to time (mostly to check if there is any REAL news), I've avoided posting in this thread - because quite frankly it's all a little ridiculous. But I do really like that second Frankfurt tower. If there is to be a tower, I like the idea of something that blends our traditional skyline with the jarring majesty of the Devon Tower. Ideally, the best looking tower would be something - say - halfway between the height of Devon and Chase with glass and traditional elements. 
> 
> I'm sure Steve L just laughs and hangs his head at everything written over lo these many pages. I'd still rather see ten five story buildings spread across MidTown in infill lots than any kind of tower but I suppose we'll all see whatever we shall see soon enough!


I agree.  I hope its something that compliments the existing skyline well, and bridges the gap between the Chase tower and the Devon tower.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I want 5 more towers started/finished within the next 5 years. Height needs to be between Chase and Devon or all taller than Devon. Don"t need and any shorter than Chase till after these next 5 are built.


Winner, hands down.

----------


## bchris02

Unfortunately, towers don't get built just because we 'want' them.  Things are looking good that one is going to be built soon, but 5 towers over 500 ft within 5 years is pushing it a little.  OKC would have to become a serious boom town ala Charlotte, Miami, or Las Vegas in the 2000s and I just don't see that happening.

----------


## Architect2010

> Unfortunately, towers don't get built just because we 'want' them.  Things are looking good that one is going to be built soon, but 5 towers over 500 ft within 5 years is pushing it a little.  OKC would have to become a serious boom town ala Charlotte, Miami, or Las Vegas in the 2000s and I just don't see that happening.


So, why did you reply seriously to those posts?

----------


## Teo9969

> Unfortunately, towers don't get built just because we 'want' them.  Things are looking good that one is going to be built soon, but 5 towers over 500 ft within 5 years is pushing it a little.  OKC would have to become a serious boom town ala Charlotte, Miami, or Las Vegas in the 2000s and I just don't see that happening.


Pushing it.....LOL

Pretty much no chance of happening. 10 years if we're lucky.

----------


## Just the facts

If we get to pick, I vote for something like this.

----------


## bchris02

> If we get to pick, I vote for something like this.


Is stuff like that still getting built?

Most recent stuff I know of are pretty much glass boxes.

----------


## hoya

If we get to pick, I want something like the NBC tower.

----------


## dankrutka

> Pushing it.....LOL
> 
> Pretty much no chance of happening. 10 years if we're lucky.


Or 50.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> If we get to pick, I vote for something like this.


JTF, this would be one of those rare moments I heavily agree with you. THIS WOULD SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!! One can only hope for such a building in OKC, but I don't of any place anywhere, besides the new hotel in Saudi Arabia which is kind of similar. What a beauty. I'm just not a big fan of cities that have their entire skyline filled with glass buildings.

----------


## Dustin

China's WTC

----------


## Just the facts

> Is stuff like that still getting built?
> 
> Most recent stuff I know of are pretty much glass boxes.


Let's just say the quality of architectural design has gone downhill.

I wish there was a way to move this building from Detroit to OKC.  How cool would this be on the SC site, or better yet, on the new CC site.

----------


## ljbab728

I'm thinking that there is no reason we necessarily have to look to the past for great design.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I'm thinking that there is no reason we necessarily have to look to the past for great design.


I'm thinking you're right.  Not to take away from the beauty of the building, but design transcends even ornamentation/articulation.

----------


## Bellaboo

Center Point Energy has a workforce totaling in the neighborhood of 9,000. I could not determine how many of those are midstream operations. Enogex is right at 400. I could see this operation having in excess of 2000 employees.

Access Midstream (formerly Chesapeake) has an employee count of 1,235, with a market cap of 6.6 billion. The CNP/Enogex MLP will have a market cap in excess of 11 billion. Not sure if a size comparison ratio can be done at this point.

----------


## tillyato

> Center Point Energy has a workforce totaling in the neighborhood of 9,000. I could not determine how many of those are midstream operations. Enogex is right at 400. I could see this operation having in excess of 2000 employees.
> 
> Access Midstream (formerly Chesapeake) has an employee count of 1,235, with a market cap of 6.6 billion. The CNP/Enogex MLP will have a market cap in excess of 11 billion. Not sure if a size comparison ratio can be done at this point.


Just to clarify, Enogex has around 400 at its corporate headquarters at Leadership Square, but about 800 employees company-wide, most of which are in the field at various locations across Oklahoma. Also, according to CenterPoint Energy's latest 10-K report, its interstate pipeline and field services (gathering and processing) divisions employed a total of 1,084 people, so I would guess that would roughly be the number of employees that would be involved in this MLP. Overall it looks like there are about 2,000 employees total, and I would guess about half would be in the corporate setting, with half working in the field.

----------


## Bellaboo

I just read the Houston Bizjournal and they claim that this will be the largest (or possibly the 2nd largest next to Phillips66 MLP) midstream MLP in the country. This is really big, and if we score the HQ, WOW.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

CenterPoint plans $11B midstream joint-venture MLP - Houston Business Journal

----------


## Bellaboo

This is the article I read -

CenterPoint MLP likely one of largest in the U.S. - Houston Business Journal

----------


## Bellaboo

Since this thread is all about speculation, and with the MLP being a popular Federal tax free entity, I'm wondering when Sandridge bought the triangle property on EKG for an affiliate, if it was intended to be their midstream MLP Offices ?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> Let's just say the quality of architectural design has gone downhill.
> 
> I wish there was a way to move this building from Detroit to OKC.  How cool would this be on the SC site, or better yet, on the new CC site.


Like

----------


## Rover

There are beautiful buildings being built all over the world using modern materials, techniques and styles.  It is narrow thinking that only appreciates a single style of architecture or thinks everything else is regression.  Trying to make OKC look like Detroit is not a noble goal.  We should just try to be our own city.  Let's not be Disneyland.  We didn't try to steal the Supersonic history...we shouldn't try to steal someone else's character.  Let's be us.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I like the architecture part, not the Detroit part.

----------


## Praedura

> This one?
> 
> Trianon (Frankfurt am Main) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...or this one?
> 
> Messeturm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I meant the first one, but the second one is pretty interesting as well.

It seems like a sleek glass tower is likely the kind that an energy company would build.

----------


## Praedura

> If we get to pick...


Yes, we do. CenterPoint and OGE have their architects reviewing this forum for ideas. So guys, choose carefully!
 :Wink:

----------


## OKCRT

> I like the architecture part, not the Detroit part.


Nah we don't want these new towers to look like Old Detroit. We want glass and maybe brick combined with some nice shiny steel. 5 years 5 Towers. They need to start 2 this year.

----------


## G.Walker

I would like something like this, my fav tower, hands down:


Frost Bank Tower, Austin, TX by rcd, on Flickr


Frost Bank Tower by • ian, on Flickr

----------


## lasomeday

> I would like something like this, my fav tower, hands down:
> 
> 
> Frost Bank Tower, Austin, TX by rcd, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Frost Bank Tower by • ian, on Flickr


I love this tower too! It and the one in Nashville with the two towers look like some evil headquarters that could launch Dr. Evil!

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I always thought that the top of the Frost Tower looks like the inner leaves on an artichoke!

----------


## SOONER8693

I've liked this building in Atlanta for a while. Something like it, both style and color, would look awesome in OKC. I guess I'm not smart enough to post the pic, but, here is a link.
Redirect Notice

----------


## UnFrSaKn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of...laza_(Atlanta)

----------


## SOONER8693

> Bank of America Plaza (Atlanta) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Thank you.

----------


## Rover

That would be great here.

----------


## Just the facts

Once again I notice a trend with people focusing on the crowns of really tall buildings.  I guess I am one of the few who focus on the part humans interact with - the first floor.  The building in Atlanta is another one of those that look great from miles away but at the sidewalk level that building sucks.  It sits back 200 feet from the street and isn't even visable from the sidewalk because it is hidden behind so many bushes and trees.  The only part that does front a street has the portal for the parking garage and a 20 foot blank wall along the sidewalk.  I hope that would never get approved in OKC in a million years.

----------


## Just the facts

Which Atlanta highrise would you rather have?

----------


## hoya

I want the ground interaction of the second.  I want the height of the first.

----------


## SOONER8693

> Which Atlanta highrise would you rather have?


I believe you've selected the north side of red building. I've walked into that building from the east side and it looks nothing like that at all. But, whatever. I'm sorry now I even mentioned the building. At least it gave you someone/something else to attack since it obviously is not what YOU want.

----------


## Just the facts

> I believe you've selected the north side of red building. I've walked into that building from the east side and it looks nothing like that at all. But, whatever. I'm sorry now I even mentioned the building. At least it gave you someone/something else to attack since it obviously is not what YOU want.


Sorry, I didn't mean for you take it personal, but if you walked into that building you know exacatly what I am talking about.  You have to walk 200 feet through a garden that shields the building from the sidewalk and there is no reason for a member of the general public to have any interaction with it at all.  There seems to be a continual focus on the top 200 feet of tall buildings.  All I am saying is if people are going to pick buildings they 'like' they should try to pick while considering the whole package, and not what looks good from 10 miles away.  Otherwise just say, "I like the top of this one."  Of the buildings posted over the last 2 pages I like the tops of all of them, but it is impossible to build only the top.  The General Lee was a cool car, but I wouldn't want it because the doors don't open.

Like I said though, I understand I am the odd man out.  I see buildings as tools that are meant to be touched, used, handled, have multiple uses during different times of the day, and have some level of interaction with people across all social and economic ranges.  However, the vast majority of people seem to see them as works of art, to be admired from a distance but only touched by the staff.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Sorry, I didn't mean for you take it personal, but if you walked into that building you know exacatly what I am talking about.  You have to walk 200 feet through a garden that shields the building from the sidewalk and there is no reason for a member of the general public to have any interaction with it at all.  There seems to be a continual focus on the top 200 feet of tall buildings.  All I am saying is if people are going to pick buildings they 'like' they should try to pick while considering the whole package, and not what looks good from 10 miles away.  Otherwise just say, "I like the top of this one."  Of the buildings posted over the last 2 pages I like the tops of all of them, but it is impossible to build only the top.  The General Lee was a cool car, but I wouldn't want it because the doors don't open.
> 
> Like I said though, I understand I am the odd man out.  I see buildings as tools that are meant to be touched, used, handled, have multiple uses during different times of the day, and have some level of interaction with people across all social and economic ranges.  However, the vast majority of people seem to see them as works of art, to be admired from a distance but only touched by the staff.




If it's an office building for a specific company and their employees then it really shouldn't matter at all how much it interacts with the public.  The fact that places like Devon have made the decision to open their tower to the public is a LUXURY, not a requirement.  But, you think even Devon is somehow fatally flawed because there's space with grass and trees near the tower.  lol

Personally, as an employee of a company that has a downtown tower, I would greatly value a garden type area that leads to the front doors of the building.  And, in case the point is somehow forgotten, the building is built for the employees of the company.  Period

----------


## Just the facts

I'll just leave it at that then.  I think the contrast in development preferences is pretty clear so there is no point left to be made.

----------


## Rover

If you only show the service entrances to any building it will look relatively bad to horrible.  It is a technique to discredit any building not fitting a personal opinion.   At least honest discussions should be honest.

----------


## Buffalo Bill

> If you only show the service entrances to any building it will look relatively bad to horrible.  It is a technique to discredit any building not fitting a personal opinion.   At least honest discussions should be honest.


From Google Streetview, it's hard to find a side of that building that _doesn't_ look like a service entrance.

----------


## hoya

> If it's an office building for a specific company and their employees then it really shouldn't matter at all how much it interacts with the public.  The fact that places like Devon have made the decision to open their tower to the public is a LUXURY, not a requirement.  But, you think even Devon is somehow fatally flawed because there's space with grass and trees near the tower.  lol
> 
> Personally, as an employee of a company that has a downtown tower, I would greatly value a garden type area that leads to the front doors of the building.  And, in case the point is somehow forgotten, the building is built for the employees of the company.  Period


I disagree completely.

Any time you build, the public has an interest.  That's why we have zoning laws and design standards.  It's well within the city's rights to insist that the ground floor of a building, even one built by a private company, be accessible to the public.  We aren't talking about a private residence, we're talking about a place of business downtown.  If you're looking for a secure facility where you have to scan a key card for the front door to open, then downtown is the wrong place for you.  Go build somewhere else.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Hoyasooner vs. WichitaSooner

Fight! 

 :Smile:

----------


## jedicurt

> Hoyasooner vs. WichitaSooner
> 
> Fight!



Street Fighter OKCTalk edition

----------


## HangryHippo

We could set up a march madness bracket to pit posters against one another for one true champion of skyscraper ideals!

----------


## Urbanized

A great tower and excellent street-level interaction are not mutually exclusive. See: Chrysler Building, Empire State Building. If you want an example of a tower with a setback for security purposes or whatever, check out the prototypical corporate plaza - before corporate plazas were designed as dead zones - Rockefeller Center. There's no reason to argue the issue of tower vs. human scale street level. It's possible to have both.

----------


## soonerguru

> Sorry, I didn't mean for you take it personal, but if you walked into that building you know exacatly what I am talking about.  You have to walk 200 feet through a garden that shields the building from the sidewalk and there is no reason for a member of the general public to have any interaction with it at all.  There seems to be a continual focus on the top 200 feet of tall buildings.  All I am saying is if people are going to pick buildings they 'like' they should try to pick while considering the whole package, and not what looks good from 10 miles away.  Otherwise just say, "I like the top of this one."  Of the buildings posted over the last 2 pages I like the tops of all of them, but it is impossible to build only the top.  The General Lee was a cool car, but I wouldn't want it because the doors don't open.
> 
> Like I said though, I understand I am the odd man out.  I see buildings as tools that are meant to be touched, used, handled, have multiple uses during different times of the day, and have some level of interaction with people across all social and economic ranges.  However, the vast majority of people seem to see them as works of art, to be admired from a distance but only touched by the staff.


You are definitely NOT the odd man out here. What you're saying has particular resonance in OKC, where we have virtually zero street-level retail access in our highrise buildings. This is a legitimate concern.

Having visited Atlanta twice in the last three years, it is not a city that has much in the way of pedestrian activity in the downtown core. It is pretty to look at, however.

With new highrises, OKC has the ability to right this problem. 

One only need to look at the excitement generated by that new women's clothing store downtown to see how important this issue is. If you're the odd man out, consider me a fellow traveler.

----------


## HangryHippo

> You are definitely NOT the odd man out here. What you're saying has particular resonance in OKC, where we have virtually zero street-level retail access in our highrise buildings. This is a legitimate concern.
> 
> Having visited Atlanta twice in the last three years, it is not a city that has much in the way of pedestrian activity in the downtown core. It is pretty to look at, however.
> 
> With new highrises, OKC has the ability to right this problem. 
> 
> One only need to look at the excitement generated by that new women's clothing store downtown to see how important this issue is. If you're the odd man out, consider me a fellow traveler.


+1.

----------


## BDP

> Like I said though, I understand I am the odd man out.


I agree with you as well. It is nice to have a downtown that is cool to look at from half a mile away, but it's even nicer to have a downtown you want to spend time in.

The reality is that many cities, even tier one cities, have long had a problem with their financial and business cores being very sterile and limited in use. Many have made great strides in this areas, but, you know, Oklahoma City is still very much a blank slate and there's nothing wrong with trying to maximize the positive impact of each new development in every way. At the very least it would be nice to have services that benefit the workers housed in that building, but are also beneficial and open to the whole community. It's not a bad idea for any tower development to do this anyway, as it takes what would be the least desirable real estate for offices and turns it into some cash flow, while enhancing the value and experience of the whole property.

----------


## metro

We need JTF and sid to replace Eric Wenger and Jim Couch, LOL.

----------


## HangryHippo

> We need JTF and sid to replace Eric Wenger and Jim Couch, LOL.


It would be an improvement.

----------


## Rover

> We need JTF and sid to replace Eric Wenger and Jim Couch, LOL.


+1

----------


## Skyline

Any coincidence that this story came out last Friday after the Centerpoint/OGE announcement?
Hines moves ahead with downtown office tower, reports say - Houston Business Journal



> Hines Interests is pushing ahead with plans to construct another major downtown Houston office tower on the southwest corner of Main and Texas Avenue ............   CultureMap reports that the 41-story tower would be known as 609 Main at Travis, and would contain 815,000 square feet of space, according to a new Hines marketing brochure. Construction of the project would not begin unless an anchor tenant was secured, the company said. CultureMap reports that commercial real estate sector observers say Hines is close to securing a key tenant and that the tower could be finished by 2016.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsde...ntown-houston/

HOUSTON | 600 Main | ? FT | 48 FLOORS - SkyscraperPage Forum

----------


## pw405

So... did we just confirm this won't be happening in OKC?

----------


## dankrutka

> So... did we just confirm this won't be happening in OKC?


No. Nothing will be confirmed until its confirmed. This thread should be renamed the jump-to-conclusions thread.

----------


## pw405

Haha good point.... upon closer inspection I concluded that _if_ this Hines project _happens_ to be linked to the CP/OGE deal, then it _may_ happen to be this.  

That rendering does have quite a few similarities to the Devon building's architecture

----------


## Praedura

A bit more info on the MLP here:

OGE Energy, CenterPoint Energy shares rise on pipeline partnership deal | News OK




> The partnership's name and the location of its headquarters are expected *to be revealed before
>  the transaction closes*. Its management team will be announced after regulatory approvals.


I should hope so, as the deal looks like it won't be closed for months -- all the regulatory hurdles, etc.




> The new company will continue to have a significant presence in Oklahoma City, Houston and Shreveport, La., Alford said


Hmm... "will continue to have"? That's awkward phrasing, given that the new company doesn't exist yet.
Presumably it means they'll try to minimize disruptive relocations, but I hope that it mainly refers to field workers.

What's a significant presence in Houston mean, I wonder? And who is in Shreveport?

I'm still a bit confused about the whole thing.

----------


## G.Walker

> So... did we just confirm this won't be happening in OKC?


The Hines project has been in the works for a few years, but just now coming to fruition. The Houston economy is booming, this tower could be for anybody, lol.

----------


## G.Walker

Fitch Affirms OGE's Ratings Following JV Announcement | Reuters

Key blurb:

OGE's leverage metrics will slightly benefit from the JV formation in the near
term due to the disproportionate allocation of economic interest. OGE's portion
of Enogex's earnings currently represents approximately 27% of the total
earnings at the JV while it will receive 28% of the economic interest.* However,
such uplift will be offset by the expected large capital expenditure program at
its regulated subsidiary Oklahoma Gas and Electric (OG&E)* which will also likely
incur an elevated level of environmental capital spending in the next several
years.

(in my terms, OGE is about to start spending some serious money, lol)

----------


## Praedura

> Fitch Affirms OGE's Ratings Following JV Announcement | Reuters
> 
> Key blurb:
> 
> OGE's leverage metrics will slightly benefit from the JV formation in the near
> term due to the disproportionate allocation of economic interest. OGE's portion
> of Enogex's earnings currently represents approximately 27% of the total
> earnings at the JV while it will receive 28% of the economic interest.* However,
> such uplift will be offset by the expected large capital expenditure program at
> ...


Exactly! 

Let's look at the phrase "expected large capital expenditure program at... OG&E".

From dictionary.reference.com



> capital expenditure:
> noun Accounting, Finance.
> an addition to the value of fixed assets, as by the purchase of a new building.


Another quote from the Fitch Ratings report, further down:




> Fitch expects OGE's liquidity to improve as a result of the transaction.


(where "transaction" refers to the MLP)

So... the auditors are expecting large capital expenditures from OG&E in the near future, and the new MLP is expected to be a good source of liquidity for the company (as Enogex probably already is)

Therefore... more fuel for the speculation that OG&E is planning to build a new tower downtown.

----------


## Kokopelli

I still think that OGE will build a new tower but, the expected large capital expenditure that the article is refering  would be a new power plant.  

Look at the phrase again and focus on the word "enivormental" then remember that OG+E is currently in court with the EPA. The EPA has said that OG+E has to either put scrubbers in place or build a new plant.

----------


## Kokopelli

Here is a link to the Hines project that is mentioned above. The articles also has some interesting comments about the new Conoco Phillips hq. 

Latest Hines project in Houston gets splashy unveiling next week - Houston Business Journal

Seems as though details about the new Conoco Phillips hq are very hard to come by. hummmmmm

----------


## Praedura

> I still think that OGE will build a new tower but, the expected large capital expenditure that the article is refering  would be a new power plant.  
> 
> Look at the phrase again and focus on the word "enivormental" then remember that OG+E is currently in court with the EPA. The EPA has said that OG+E has to either put scrubbers in place or build a new plant.


Ah bummer. Well I was afraid that there was a more mundane explanation.
 :Frown: 

Still, it would appear that the new MLP is going to help OG&E's bottom line.

----------


## soonerguru

> I still think that OGE will build a new tower but, the expected large capital expenditure that the article is refering  would be a new power plant.  
> 
> Look at the phrase again and focus on the word "enivormental" then remember that OG+E is currently in court with the EPA. The EPA has said that OG+E has to either put scrubbers in place or build a new plant.


Why is OG&E still building coal-fired plants? Geez.

----------


## soonerguru

> A bit more info on the MLP here:
> 
> OGE Energy, CenterPoint Energy shares rise on pipeline partnership deal | News OK
> 
> 
> 
> I should hope so, as the deal looks like it won't be closed for months -- all the regulatory hurdles, etc.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm trying to be optimistic here, but this does not sound good for OKC. Looks like we'll lose some jobs at the minimum.

----------


## Skyline

Both Houston and Okc have "mystery towers" being discussed for a new corporate HQ, both set to be officially announced very soon?

----------


## Bellaboo

> A bit more info on the MLP here:
> 
> OGE Energy, CenterPoint Energy shares rise on pipeline partnership deal | News OK
> 
> 
> 
> I should hope so, as the deal looks like it won't be closed for months -- all the regulatory hurdles, etc.
> 
> 
> ...


The Haynesville shale play distribution network. Just like the 5 plays in Oklahoma that OG&E is in, CNP is in the Haynesville around Shreveport and Barnett just north of Ft. Worth. The resource base and pipeline grid is closer to OKC than Houston, and that is a good thing.

I think it's coming here, just too much confirmation from Beffort and Steve in a roundabout way.

----------


## boitoirich

Stay calm an re-read Steve.

"I'm not worried." -Steve 3:16

----------


## NWOKCGuy

Oh no ---- this MLP must be the tenant in the 59 story tower proposed for Midland. 

j/k... there really is a tower proposal there though.

Developer: New tower to help show Midland as the ?Oil Capital of America? - Mywesttexas.com: Top Stories

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Midland | Energy Tower at City Center | 53 FLOORS - SkyscraperPage Forum

State of The Art Building Coming To Downtown Midland - KWES NewsWest 9 / Midland, Odessa, Big Spring, TX: newswest9.com |

----------


## Dustin

> Midland | Energy Tower at City Center | 53 FLOORS - SkyscraperPage Forum
> 
> State of The Art Building Coming To Downtown Midland - KWES NewsWest 9 / Midland, Odessa, Big Spring, TX: newswest9.com |


Sweet Jeebus that is a pretty skyscraper.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Bank of America Plaza (Atlanta) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It's funny, I saw this post as I was standing at a crosswalk on Baker St NW & looked up to cross the street & saw the BoA Plaza. One of those "hey, that's pretty cool" moments.

----------


## Praedura

> Sweet Jeebus that is a pretty skyscraper.


Yep, that's a nice looking tower in the rendering:




Cmon, OKC... we can't let Midland beat us out on the tower front, for goodness sake!
 :Wink:

----------


## G.Walker

Wow, talk about out of place...this will really stick out, Midland, really? When places like Midland, Tx start building 900ft skyscrapers, something is wrong, lol.

----------


## dcsooner

> The Haynesville shale play distribution network. Just like the 5 plays in Oklahoma that OG&E is in, CNP is in the Haynesville around Shreveport and Barnett just north of Ft. Worth. The resource base and pipeline grid is closer to OKC than Houston, and that is a good thing.
> 
> I think it's coming here, just too much confirmation from Beffort and Steve in a roundabout way.


For all the talk of a company or companies coming to OKC and building a significant tower in DT OKC, we seem to forget the number of times cities, Houston in particular has absorbed one of OKC's companies.  With the problems being faced by Chesapeake and Sandridge, how can any of us really be confident in OKC's long term oil future outside of Continental and Devon? I really suggest we not forget how many times the city has been changed by takeover and move of a corporate presence. A company moving a major corporate entity TO OKC FROM Houston, I'll believe it when I see it.

----------


## okcpulse

dcsooner, we don't know if the corporate entity is coming from Houston.  But a deal for a new tower for a new corporate entity is in the works.  That's all we know.  Given the struggles of Chesapeake and Sandridge, we are missing the positives.  Chesapeake is performing better than it has in the recent past.  Sandridge ended its proxy fight with TPG-Axon.  That isn't to say we are in the clear.  We are certainly not.  However, failure is not a guarantee, either.  We over-react every time an OKC company so much as eeks.

Lest we forget that Larry Nichols admits that if OKC didn't experience the resurgence, Houston would have been the location for their HQ.  And Continental could have gone to Houston, but did not.  And, Devon moved its Houston office to OKC.  To me, that is 3 solid victories over Houston.  I hope for more.

----------


## dcsooner

> dcsooner, we don't know if the corporate entity is coming from Houston.  But a deal for a new tower for a new corporate entity is in the works.  That's all we know.  Given the struggles of Chesapeake and Sandridge, we are missing the positives.  Chesapeake is performing better than it has in the recent past.  Sandridge ended its proxy fight with TPG-Axon.  That isn't to say we are in the clear.  We are certainly not.  However, failure is not a guarantee, either.  We over-react every time an OKC company so much as eeks.
> 
> Lest we forget that Larry Nichols admits that if OKC didn't experience the resurgence, Houston would have been the location for their HQ.  And Continental could have gone to Houston, but did not.  And, Devon moved its Houston office to OKC.  To me, that is 3 solid victories over Houston.  I hope for more.


OKCpulse, I truly hope you are correct in your outlook, because I so badly want OKC to break out as a Corporate location.  I'm just hedging my bet to avoid disappointment. Thanks for reminding me of the postives

----------


## okcpulse

Nothing wrong with hedging.  I totally understand where you are coming from.  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

----------


## GaryOKC6

I was told last summer bt one of their executives that OG&E was forced by the feds to build a coal fired plant several years ago (I assume to support the coal industry) and now the feds want it closd down.  It is not that easy when OGE was forced to invest millions ina coal plant only to have that reversed years later.  They have at least one coal plant but I don't think they are building more.

----------


## HangryHippo

> For all the talk of a company or companies coming to OKC and building a significant tower in DT OKC, we seem to forget the number of times cities, Houston in particular has absorbed one of OKC's companies.  With the problems being faced by Chesapeake and Sandridge, how can any of us really be confident in OKC's long term oil future outside of Continental and Devon? I really suggest we not forget how many times the city has been changed by takeover and move of a corporate presence. A company moving a major corporate entity TO OKC FROM Houston, I'll believe it when I see it.


+1

----------


## MikeLucky

> I disagree completely.
> 
> Any time you build, the public has an interest.  That's why we have zoning laws and design standards.  It's well within the city's rights to insist that the ground floor of a building, even one built by a private company, be accessible to the public.  We aren't talking about a private residence, we're talking about a place of business downtown.  If you're looking for a secure facility where you have to scan a key card for the front door to open, then downtown is the wrong place for you.  Go build somewhere else.


I've never said that I think downtown towers SHOULD NOT have good public interaction...  But, the fact is it isn't REQUIRED... and, Devon actually has really awesome public interaction, yet JTF thinks it's not done correctly.  So, I have a hard time taking his complaints in this area very seriously.

And, I couldn't agree more with you that if you want a more secure facility, then downtown probably isn't your best bet... but, the irony in that is if any company builds in OKC somewhere other than downtown (maybe even for that reason) they are immediately chided on this forum for not building downtown.  lol

So, again, I find it hard to take some of the opinions of the "urbanists" on the board seriously when they are quite obviously very single minded in their scope and vision.  I'm all for making downtown better and to keep the current momentum going in the right direction.  But, that still doesn't mean EVERYTHING must be done there and done one certain way.

----------


## G.Walker

> Where?  I work in downtown Houston and at this time there are not any major projects underway.  They finished a class A tower two years back, and Hess recently completed their new tower, but outside of that, towers are not going up left and right.


Houston's downtown skyline to be reshaped - Houston Chronicle

----------


## Bellaboo

> Houston's downtown skyline to be reshaped - Houston Chronicle


okcpulse is right, nothing going up at this time, the article is proposals for the future.

----------


## jedicurt

> Houston's downtown skyline to be reshaped - Houston Chronicle


This article properly explains why Oklahoma and more specifically OKC should be trying to persuade some of these companies to relocate.  With rent prices going up, and a major lack of space,   OKC should be able to be presented as a much cheaper alternative

----------


## G.Walker

Houston has several office projects going up outside of downtown...needless to say Houston is booming, and they have various projects under construction and on drawing boards.

----------


## hoya

I don't think we need to worry about Houston.  We don't need to directly compete with them for every company.  Our economy will do very well if we can just protect our own businesses.  We'll succeed tremendously if we just pick off one of their companies.  Both cities can do well without having to harm the other.  Sure it would be great if Exxon relocated to OKC, but that's a battle to be fought in 20 or 30 years.

----------


## bchris02

OKC and Houston really can't be compared in this manner. They are booming and have been for years now. They get new 'Mystery Towers' all the time and due to their lack of zoning laws, they aren't always downtown.  Houston has so much momentum as well. OKC is quite frankly a small town compared to Houston.

It is a very exciting time for people living in Houston with these new towers going up.

----------


## jedicurt

> I don't think we need to worry about Houston.  We don't need to directly compete with them for every company.  Our economy will do very well if we can just protect our own businesses.  We'll succeed tremendously if we just pick off one of their companies.  Both cities can do well without having to harm the other.  Sure it would be great if Exxon relocated to OKC, but that's a battle to be fought in 20 or 30 years.


at no point did i even think about Exxon or any of the other major companies in Houston.   I was more thinking the smaller companies that could significantly benefit by the move.   I also never said that we needed to go after every company.  I just said that we need to be trying to do what we can to show these companies what OKC has to offer.   I'd be happy with 5 or 6 100-300 employee energy companies moving to OKC, it doesn't have to be a single massive company.   I say lets go for the companies that Houston wouldn't even know were gone, let them become successful Oklahoma companies and grow here.   

If we get a large company to come, that's great.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'd say go after some of these newly formed midstream Master Limited Partnerships !   lol

----------


## hoya

> at no point did i even think about Exxon or any of the other major companies in Houston.   I was more thinking the smaller companies that could significantly benefit by the move.   I also never said that we needed to go after every company.  I just said that we need to be trying to do what we can to show these companies what OKC has to offer.   I'd be happy with 5 or 6 100-300 employee energy companies moving to OKC, it doesn't have to be a single massive company.   I say lets go for the companies that Houston wouldn't even know were gone, let them become successful Oklahoma companies and grow here.   
> 
> If we get a large company to come, that's great.


I'm fine with that.  It just seems like everyone is getting depressed around here because they think Houston is going to run away with our girlfriends.

----------


## adaniel

^
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised at the glumness here. 

As far as OKC is concerned, the only company that "moved" to Houston was Kerr-Mcgee, and by the time they were purchased by Anadarko they were a shell of themselves. 

Also, the Devon acquisition of both Mitchell and Ocean Energy brought several hundred Houstonians up here last decade. Continental, SandRidge, etc. are filled with people from Houston who worked for the majors. So don't assume the flow of people and capital is one-way. 

In terms of the energy industry, we will always play second fiddle to Houston, in the same way Austin is towards San Jose/San Francisco is with the IT industry. But this isn't 1998. The industry is far more domestic and onshore focused, so the need to be down there is nowhere near what is was even a few years ago.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> In terms of the energy industry, we will always play second fiddle to Houston


Some perspective.

----------


## Praedura

> Some perspective.


You know, I'm not really that jealous of Houston's skyline per se -- not in terms of the individual buildings. Yes, they have a jillion more towers than we do, but a lot of them are just dull rectangular boxes.

Admittedly, that changes at nightfall. Then the light display of all those buildings becomes quite spectacular.

----------


## Just the facts

For all the towers in downtown Houston - what they seriously lack is 'urban fabric'  They have about 20X the vacant lots downtown OKC has.  They would have been better off to cut all of their heights by 1/3 and fill in the area a little.

----------


## Teo9969

> You know, I'm not really that jealous of Houston's skyline per se -- not in terms of the individual buildings. Yes, they have a jillion more towers than we do, but a lot of them are just dull rectangular boxes.
> 
> Admittedly, that changes at nightfall. Then the light display of all those buildings becomes quite spectacular.


Ironically that Centerpoint Tower is pretty flipping sweet. It and the BoA tower are the best in downtown Houston (I also like the William's Tower)

----------


## Decious

> You know, I'm not really that jealous of Houston's skyline per se -- not in terms of the individual buildings. Yes, they have a jillion more towers than we do, but a lot of them are just dull rectangular boxes.
> 
> Admittedly, that changes at nightfall. Then the light display of all those buildings becomes quite spectacular.


Agreed. The skyline is stunning at night. As is the Galleria area skyline. I've spent a lot of time in Friendswood and Spring through my 20s. Went downtown a lot to party. The picture posted sums it up quite nicely. Empty-ish streets. Ton of towers. Not much if any retail. Their own Legacy-like apartment complex... as seen in the foreground. I love Houston, but OKC is closer to being Houston than Houston is to being NYC or Chicago. It's a more extreme version(for better and worse) of what OKC currently is.... but is it a place to pine after? No. If we don't plan well... we'll be exactly what Houston currently is... in 80-100 years.  :Eek:

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> For all the towers in downtown Houston - what they seriously lack is 'urban fabric'  They have about 20X the vacant lots downtown OKC has.  They would have been better off to cut all of their heights by 1/3 and fill in the area a little.



No kidding...

----------


## bchris02

> For all the towers in downtown Houston - what they seriously lack is 'urban fabric'  They have about 20X the vacant lots downtown OKC has.  They would have been better off to cut all of their heights by 1/3 and fill in the area a little.


Houston's skyline is hard to beat. I really like it and find it superior to OKC's no matter how you slice and dice it. I definitely agree they need more infill though. I also think OKC's skyline will look far better after there is another tower or two to balance it out.

I do wonder though, what would be the logistical standpoint of a company relocating from Houston to OKC?

----------


## Decious

> Houston's skyline is hard to beat. I really like it and find it superior to OKC's no matter how you slice and dice it. I definitely agree they need more infill though. I also think OKC's skyline will look far better after there is another tower or two to balance it out.
> 
> I do wonder though, what would be the logistical standpoint of a company relocating from Houston to OKC?


Houston's skyline IS hard to beat. It's awesome. So is Kim Kardashian's rear end. Wouldn't want to marry her though. I don't think ANYONE would say that OKC's skyline is superior to Houston's. That's just too obvious a fact to even talk about it. The downtown experience though... is effectively no different than OKC's. Boston or Philly it is not. 

As far as logistical reasons to locate/consolidate in OKC opposed to Houston? The reasoning in the Centerpoint/Enogex case has been clearly stated multiple times in this thread. More broadly? No idea... the answer would be too objective. We'll see what happens.  :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

> Houston's skyline IS hard to beat. It's awesome. So is Kim Kardashian's rear end. Wouldn't want to marry her though. I don't think ANYONE would say that OKC's skyline is superior to Houston's. That's just too obvious a fact to even talk about it. The downtown experience though... is effectively no different than OKC's. Boston or Philly it is not.


 :Lol2: 




> As far as logistical reasons to locate/consolidate in OKC opposed to Houston? The reasoning in the Centerpoint/Enogex case has been clearly stated multiple times in this thread. More broadly? No idea... the answer would be too objective. We'll see what happens.


OKC has a brilliant personality?
 :Smile:

----------


## MikeLucky

> Houston's skyline IS hard to beat. It's awesome. *So is Kim Kardashian's rear end*. Wouldn't want to marry her though. I don't think ANYONE would say that OKC's skyline is superior to Houston's. That's just too obvious a fact to even talk about it. The downtown experience though... is effectively no different than OKC's. Boston or Philly it is not. 
> 
> As far as logistical reasons to locate/consolidate in OKC opposed to Houston? The reasoning in the Centerpoint/Enogex case has been clearly stated multiple times in this thread. More broadly? No idea... the answer would be too objective. We'll see what happens.


Speaking of great public accessiblity...

 :Wink:

----------


## dankrutka

> Wow, talk about out of place...this will really stick out, Midland, really? When places like Midland, Tx start building 900ft skyscrapers, something is wrong, lol.


This what pretty much everyone said about OKC with Devon. People still rag on OKC unecessarily. That's why I make a point of never putting down other cities, like Midland.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> This what pretty much everyone said about OKC with Devon. People still rag on OKC unecessarily. That's why I make a point of never putting down other cities, like Midland.


SkyscraperPage Forum - View Single Post - MIDLAND | Energy Tower at City Center | 869 FT | 53 FLOORS

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...postcount=1463

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...&postcount=227

----------


## Rover

Midland, Kansas City, St. Louis, Tulsa, Little Rock, Wichita, Omaha, Memphis.....those are the cities we need to try to take headquarters away from -especially the Oil and Gas businesses.  First rule in warfare is to avoid going heads up against a superior foe, especially against their strength.  It's hard to argue taking an energy business from Houston.   But taking one from Kansas City should be easier for us.  We need to not be obsessed with Houston or think we are ready to flex our muscle next to them.  It might happen occasionally when there is some unique reason, but as a matter of common occurrence.....it just isn't going to happen.

----------


## sroberts24

> SkyscraperPage Forum - View Single Post - MIDLAND | Energy Tower at City Center | 869 FT | 53 FLOORS
> 
> SkyscraperPage Forum - View Single Post - OKLAHOMA CITY | Devon Headquarters | 850 FT / 259 M | 54 FLOORS | U/C
> 
> SkyscraperPage Forum - View Single Post - OKLAHOMA CITY | Projects & Construction



BAHAHA I love how cashville has trolled OKC for years, and 90% of what he spits out is false and just trying to bash OKC... the guy literally has nothing better to do than bash us.  I find it quite humorious and love how he takes a few people making speculations about companies and twisting it to make it look like we all think Shell or enter your dream company will be headed to OKC.  Always gives me a half chuckle.

----------


## hoya

> Speaking of great public accessiblity...


BAM!

That was good.  :Smile: 

Personally, I'm not at all impressed with Houston's skyline.  It's very generic.  I can generally recognize the skylines of big US cities.  You could have posted that picture above and told me it was Omaha and I'd have believed you.  Nothing against big ugly boxes, because every city has those and they add depth to the skyline, but that's about all Houston has.  There's very little variation in architectural style there.

And when you consider that Houston has nearly as many people as Chicago, it's got a really pathetic skyline for its size.

----------


## Bellaboo

> BAHAHA I love how cashville has trolled OKC for years, and 90% of what he spits out is false and just trying to bash OKC... the guy literally has nothing better to do than bash us.  I find it quite humorious and love how he takes a few people making speculations about companies and twisting it to make it look like we all think Shell or enter your dream company will be headed to OKC.  Always gives me a half chuckle.


He's just mad cause Nashville lost the Signature Tower.......talk about a bunch of dreamers

----------


## Bellaboo

> BAM!
> 
> That was good. 
> 
> Personally, I'm not at all impressed with Houston's skyline.  It's very generic.  I can generally recognize the skylines of big US cities.  You could have posted that picture above and told me it was Omaha and I'd have believed you.  Nothing against big ugly boxes, because every city has those and they add depth to the skyline, but that's about all Houston has.  There's very little variation in architectural style there.
> 
> And when you consider that Houston has nearly as many people as Chicago, it's got a really pathetic skyline for its size.


The only difinitive building in downtown Houston is the former PenzTower.....looks like 3 staggered towers merged together. It's on the left side of the picture.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Midland, Kansas City, St. Louis, Tulsa, Little Rock, Wichita, Omaha, Memphis.....those are the cities we need to try to take headquarters away from -especially the Oil and Gas businesses.  First rule in warfare is to avoid going heads up against a superior foe, especially against their strength.  It's hard to argue taking an energy business from Houston.   But taking one from Kansas City should be easier for us.  We need to not be obsessed with Houston or think we are ready to flex our muscle next to them.  It might happen occasionally when there is some unique reason, but as a matter of common occurrence.....it just isn't going to happen.


Like!  Exactly this.  We need to capitalize on being Oklahoma City, we're better for your O&G company but without all the mess of Houston.

----------


## hoya

> The only difinitive building in downtown Houston is the former PenzTower.....looks like 3 staggered towers merged together. It's on the left side of the picture.


The red one with the triangular tops?  That was the only one I liked.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Pennzoil Place - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## okcpulse

Guys, I don't mean to sound short, but this is my only escape from Houston.  I spend every weekday in downtown Houston.  I come on here to read about Oklahoma City, not Houston.  Let's please get back on topic, or at least something OKC related.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

How about this:  Steve releases an amazing article about a new downtown tower within the next 2 months.  Sincerely do not think it will be within the next 17 days.  Sorry if I burst someone's time capsule bubble...

----------


## G.Walker

I'm done talking about a mystery tower, this is getting ridiculous already. When it happens, it happens.

----------


## dankrutka

> I'm done talking about a mystery tower, this is getting ridiculous already. When it happens, it happens.


You've posted this same thing about 15 times in this thread... Something tells me Youll be back.

----------


## metro

> Midland, Kansas City, St. Louis, Tulsa, Little Rock, Wichita, Omaha, Memphis.....those are the cities we need to try to take headquarters away from -especially the Oil and Gas businesses.  First rule in warfare is to avoid going heads up against a superior foe, especially against their strength.  It's hard to argue taking an energy business from Houston.   But taking one from Kansas City should be easier for us.  We need to not be obsessed with Houston or think we are ready to flex our muscle next to them.  It might happen occasionally when there is some unique reason, but as a matter of common occurrence.....it just isn't going to happen.


Do you think we are seriously "at war" with Houston? I doubt our Chamber folk are savvy enough to proactively fly to Houston and such to try and lure companies away, as much as they are fielding INBOUND requests from companies CONSIDERING RELOCATION.  I agree with the premise you mention, but I would be surprised if we have much proactivity on outbound recruiting.

----------


## Bellaboo

This came out a couple of days ago from Fitch on ratings for the new CNP/OGE midstream MLP. Some interesting info, some we've seen, some we've not seen -

Fitch Expects to Assign an Initial Rating of 'BBB' to CenterPoint and OGE's Midstream Joint Venture

----------


## Rover

> Do you think we are seriously "at war" with Houston? I doubt our Chamber folk are savvy enough to proactively fly to Houston and such to try and lure companies away, as much as they are fielding INBOUND requests from companies CONSIDERING RELOCATION.  I agree with the premise you mention, but I would be surprised if we have much proactivity on outbound recruiting.


Yes, our Econ development staff does recruit if they feel we have a chance.  And no, don't parse each word for literal translation...  We are not at WAR.  LOL.  But competitive principals apply.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Do you think we are seriously "at war" with Houston? I doubt our Chamber folk are savvy enough to proactively fly to Houston and such to try and lure companies away, as much as they are fielding INBOUND requests from companies CONSIDERING RELOCATION.  I agree with the premise you mention, but I would be surprised if we have much proactivity on outbound recruiting.


Well I geuess that everyone allowed to be wrong every once in a while.  So....the fact is that the Chamber's ED group DOES make regular call trips to other major cities including Houston.  They actually wre in Houston as recently as 2 months ago as well as the west coast, Boston, Ohio....well I think you can get the drift.

----------


## zookeeper

> Well I geuess that everyone allowed to be wrong every once in a while.  So....the fact is that the Chamber's ED group DOES make regular call trips to other major cities including Houston.  They actually wre in Houston as recently as 2 months ago as well as the west coast, Boston, Ohio....well I think you can get the drift.


I think we're a great city for most any business. I'd like to see more diversification of our local economy and see some companies look our way that aren't directly related to oil and gas..

----------


## GaryOKC6

> I think we're a great city for most any business. I'd like to see more diversification of our local economy and see some companies look our way that aren't directly related to oil and gas..


You are correct.  There are several no companies that are not oil and gas related who are looking at us right now.  One that I know is looking to locate in 100,000sf of calss A office space.  OKC is on the short list.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> You are correct.  There are several no companies that are not oil and gas related who are looking at us right now.  One that I know is looking to locate in 100,000sf of calss A office space.  OKC is on the short list.


What industries?

----------


## BDP

> No kidding...


Wow, that is awful. I'm sure it's not all like that, but that's exactly what we should avoid. Unfortunately, every time something gets torn down, we just delay more infill.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> What industries?


The one that I mentioned previously is a Finanacial services company.  Looking to open a central office.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> You are correct.  There are several no companies that are not oil and gas related who are looking at us right now.  One that I know is looking to locate in 100,000sf of calss A office space.  OKC is on the short list.


Several no companies or several number of companies?  The latter would be great since everyone here knows that that is what OKC needs in order to sustain as a big league city when energy use transitions away from fossil fuels.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Several no companies or several number of companies?  The latter would be great since everyone here knows that that is what OKC needs in order to sustain as a big league city when energy use transitions away from fossil fuels.


The really are several different types. Yes a lot of energy realred as well. OKC had 2 site visits last week.  Neither of wich are potential tower candidates

----------


## HangryHippo

> The really are several different types. Yes a lot of energy realred as well. OKC had 2 site visits last week.  Neither of wich are potential tower candidates


Gary, slow down, take a breath and spell check. Haha

----------


## Just the facts

> Wow, that is awful. I'm sure it's not all like that, but that's exactly what we should avoid. Unfortunately, every time something gets torn down, we just delay more infill.


I know a lot of people are fixated on the skyline, but I am more interested in the hemline.  What’s going on around the bottom is much more interesting.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Gary, slow down, take a breath and spell check. Haha


Yea, I hear you.  My Ipad is a little touchy.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Yea, I hear you.  My Ipad is a little touchy.


I'm just giving you a hard time. No worries!

How likely is it OKC lands some of these companies you're hearing about?

----------


## OU Adonis

> I know a lot of people are fixated on the skyline, but I am more interested in the hemline.  Whats going on around the bottom is much more interesting.


We still talking about buildings, JtF?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Bellaboo

> I know a lot of people are fixated on the skyline, but *I am more interested in the hemline.  Whats going on around the bottom* is much more interesting.


Get your mind out of the gutter JTF.

----------


## Just the facts

> Get your mind out of the gutter JTF.


That all depends on the gutter.  :Smile:

----------


## SoonerBoy18

I wanted to stop by this thread, since I havent done so in over over 2 months, to say that I'll believe this mystery Tower once I see it all over channels  4, 5, and 9

----------


## Bellaboo

> I wanted to stop by this thread, since I havent done so in over over 2 months, to say that I'll believe this mystery Tower once I see it all over channels  4, 5, and 9


Hey Soonerboy18,
This is about 'speculation & ideas', we have figured out 1). Someone is looking at the Stage center site 2). It's going to be a very large tower and 3). It's pointing to an MLP with Enogex and CenterPoint.

You have not heard any of that on Channels 4, 5 or 9 yet have you ?

This is like figuring out a puzzle.....fun

----------


## SoonerBoy18

> Hey Soonerboy18,
> This is about 'speculation & ideas', we have figured out 1). Someone is looking at the Stage center site 2). It's going to be a very large tower and 3). It's pointing to an MLP with Enogex and CenterPoint.
> 
> You have not heard any of that on Channels 4, 5 or 9 yet have you ?
> 
> This is like figuring out a puzzle.....fun


Well I hope it doesn't lead to failure

----------


## Plutonic Panda

So what's the situation here? Is "thee" tower still expected to be announced very (VERY) soon?

----------


## SOONER8693

> So what's the situation here? Is "thee" tower still expected to be announced very (VERY) soon?


Was wondering the same thing. Have we heard anything from Steve lately, or has he gone into seclusion on this?

----------


## Dustin

> Was wondering the same thing. Have we heard anything from Steve lately, or has he gone into seclusion on this?


He is putting the finishing touches on his latest story about the new stage center tower.

Not really.

----------


## GoThunder

> He is putting the finishing touches on his latest story about the new stage center tower.
> 
> Not really.


Wouldn't that be nice!  But on a serious note (as serious as you can get in a speculative thread) as soon as the MLP announcement was made, Steve pretty much went silent.  This indicates, in my very humble and naive opinion, that we are getting close to more concrete information.

----------


## Dustin

> Wouldn't that be nice!  But on a serious note (as serious as you can get in a speculative thread) as soon as the MLP announcement was made, Steve pretty much went silent.  This indicates, in my very humble and naive opinion, that we are getting close to more concrete information.


We know for a fact that we are getting a new... something.  Otherwise Beffort is getting burned at the stake (figuratively).  We just don't know when, which is driving everyone on this board bat-s#it insane.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Nice avatars, gentlemen.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

What was that tower being built in Midland for? Is it really being built or was it just speculation? Anyone who has been to Midland will know, it's not exactly a 5 star city. I couldn't believe that someone building a building of that size would choose Midland over Houston(if it had to built in Texas). Was it the MLP everyone was talking about?

----------


## dankrutka

> We know for a fact that we are getting a new... something.


No. We don't. Deals fall through all time. While indications are good, there's no such thing as a done deal until its done. This assumption is rampant on this thread, and I've been warning against this logic for a year now. We'll see...

----------


## Plutonic Panda

^^^^ Tru dat

----------


## Dustin

> no. We don't. Deals fall through all time. While indications are good, there's no such thing as a done deal until its done. This assumption is rampant on this thread, and i've been warning against this logic for a year now. We'll see...


Lalalala!  I can't hear you!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

New live chat rules:

OKC Central Live Chat 10 a.m. Today ? Please Read This Special Request! | OKC Central

Also:

No new information on the "mystery tower".

----------


## Just the facts

> New live chat rules:
> 
> OKC Central Live Chat 10 a.m. Today ? Please Read This Special Request! | OKC Central
> 
> Also:
> 
> *No new information on the "mystery tower"*.


So don't ask.

----------


## SOONER8693

> So don't ask.


I'm beginning to fear we've been set up for the biggest dissapointment in the the history of this board. Hope like heck I'm wrong.

----------


## HangryHippo

> No. We don't. Deals fall through all time. While indications are good, there's no such thing as a done deal until its done. This assumption is rampant on this thread, and I've been warning against this logic for a year now. We'll see...


+1.

----------


## modernism

I don't post often, but thought I would chime in, doesn't look like a tower is coming anytime soon, maybe next year.

----------


## Jesseda

> I don't post often, but thought I would chime in, doesn't look like a tower is coming anytime soon, maybe next year.


Well that sucks, it sounds like someone was just playing fun little games. simple yes or no on this issue would have been nice, it would have saved us at least 50 pages on this thread. Oh well. We will all know is a couple weeks if it was all true or not, if nothing is announced, then we all know we got played  :Smile:

----------


## Steve

> I don't post often, but thought I would chime in, doesn't look like a tower is coming anytime soon, maybe next year.


Um, sure. OK.....

----------


## Bellaboo

> *I don't post often*, but thought I would chime in, doesn't look like a tower is coming anytime soon, maybe next year.


You've posted twice in 3 years, come join in more often.

----------


## jedicurt

> Um, sure. OK.....


Steve... why must you keep teasing us!!!!!

----------


## Jesseda

> Steve... why must you keep teasing us!!!!!


I think to get a kick out of it  :Smile: .. We all have a couple more weeks of finding out. Lets all calm down and chill out, if nothing comes to this by mid april them I say we can string him up.....Who would have thought a possible mystery tower would make such a big deal.

----------


## Pete

I still think there will be an announcement regarding the Stage Center site within the next 1-3 months.

----------


## Jesseda

> I still think there will be an announcement regarding the Stage Center site within the next 1-3 months.


I was hoping for 1-3 weeks!!!! now maybe 1-3 months!!! hope the next post will not be 1-3 years

----------


## HangryHippo

Haha.  Someone asked Steve what they could expect in 3 years when they return from the big apple, and Steve said he expects a skyscraper to be coming out of the ground.  So, there's your 3 years prediction.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Construction will be going on, not a complete tower too.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Construction will be going on, not a complete tower too.


Keep in mind, what we know is that it'll be a very big tower. Not every company would have such a rigorous building schedule that Devon did. It could be topped out but not finished in 3 years.

----------


## metro

Not to mention it could be announced in 1-3 months and still be going up in 3 years. People need to chill.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Not to mention it could be announced in 1-3 months and still be going up in 3 years. People need to chill.


Metro, I think you need to relax a little.  It was just ironic that Jesseda said she hoped the next post wouldn't be 1-3 years and then someone in the chat got Steve's prediction of a tower going up in 3 years this morning.  It was humorous.  Chill pill, bro!

----------


## metro

LOL, I am relaxed, I was advising the others freaking out about a tower may or may not happen in 3 years to chill.....

----------


## Teo9969

Alright everybody

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Well that sucks, it sounds like someone was just playing fun little games. simple yes or no on this issue would have been nice, it would have saved us at least 50 pages on this thread. *Oh well. We will all know is a couple weeks if it was all true or not, if nothing is announced, then we all know we got played*


No one got played here. I actually still think something is happening, I can't say for sure though. I really appreciate all that Steve has contributed and the effort he has put into this and if the "deal" were truly dead, I'm sure he would've said something about it. So, I wouldn't just say "it's over" or "were certainly going to get a tower". As a previous poster pointed out, nothing is certain until an official deal is done. Even if a deal were to happen, it could put on hold or even canceled, so I wouldn't be completely satisfied until we have a tower built and standing.

----------


## Dustin

Steve Lackmeyer: In three years, Deep Deuce will be Oklahoma's first mixed-use downtown neighborhood | News OK




> What will downtown and the surrounding Oklahoma City area be like in three years?
> The Bricktown skyline will be dramatically different in three years. A new skyscraper will likely be coming out of the ground. The boathouse district will be a 21st Century Delmar Gardens. Work will be underway on the new boulevard and park. MidTown will be as densely built up as Deep Deuce is now. And Deep Deuce will be fully developed as the first fully mature mixed use downtown neighborhood in the entire state. Yes, I see all this being quite possible in three years. Copy and paste this prediction. I'm sticking with it.

----------


## OKCRT

> Steve Lackmeyer: In three years, Deep Deuce will be Oklahoma's first mixed-use downtown neighborhood | News OK



That's all great! I predict that the 1st tower will be or near completed within 3 years and another one will be sprouting out of the earth. Maybe more.

----------


## kevinpate

I once asked God for patience. Shortly afterward, I discovered okctalk, okccentral and steve.  

That's one wicked sense of humor ya got there God.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Another reason to block this thread.  Kinda makes me want to subscribe to the Daily Jokelahoman...since this thread is its papa...

----------


## dteagle

I'm just as eager for details of potential tower developments as everyone else on this thread, but on a positive note, I am impressed with the quality of our citizens.  Given the popularity of this board, there are almost certainly participants in these forums with partial or even complete knowledge of the potential tower projects that are out there.  The high level interest would make it tempting to spill the beans, but it has not happened.  

I give credit to highly professional unknown knowers, as well as Steve Lackmeyer, who has shown great restraint and in my view, shown that he can be trusted with early tips about not-yet-completed deals.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Do not feel belittled if you are eagerly anticipating a new tower to soon grace our skyline. 
Face facts, most of us visitors to this thread are Mystery Tower fanboys, don't let the grown ups tell you it's childish.   :Smile:

----------


## modernism

Regarding new MLP via OGE/CenterPoint:

The location of the new company along with company name will be decided once the transaction closes, which is expected in 30-60 days. Enogex has approximately 700 employess in Oklahoma, and many of those are key field personnel servicing customer in the state. Regardless of where the company is headquarted, Enogex will continue to have a large prescense in the state, thank you.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Regarding new MLP via OGE/CenterPoint:
> 
> The location of the new company along with company name will be decided once the transaction closes, which is expected in 30-60 days. Enogex has approximately 700 employess in Oklahoma, and many of those are key field personnel servicing customer in the state. Regardless of where the company is headquarted, Enogex will continue to have a large prescense in the state, thank you.


You're welcome?????

 :Headscratch:

----------


## SOONER8693

Looks like everyone has given up.

----------


## jedicurt

> Looks like everyone has given up.


given up on what?  i think we are all waiting for the new MLP to announce, or whomever else might be making a bid for the Stage Center site

----------


## hoya

I am virtually positive that a new tower will be announced soon.  However we've gotten just about all the clues we're going to get.  Nothing to do but wait now.

----------


## Pete

> I am virtually positive that a new tower will be announced soon.  However we've gotten just about all the clues we're going to get.  Nothing to do but wait now.


Yep.

And I think we'll see another one announced within the next year as well.

----------


## Bellaboo

I think we'll hear something as soon as the OCCF sells the SC site, but that should coincide with the official formation of the MLP. That could be 30 to 60 days.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Looks like everyone has given up.


haha, I was just thinking this as well.  But I guess I'm the only one that's given up.  Fitting given the user name.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## SOONER8693

> given up on what?  i think we are all waiting for the new MLP to announce, or whomever else might be making a bid for the Stage Center site


I guess I wasn't clear. I meant given up on any new news short of an announcement.

----------


## dankrutka

> I guess I wasn't clear. I meant given up on any new news short of an announcement.


You make it seem like this is effort thing... Like if OKCTalk posters all just try harder then we'll get more news and an announcement.

All that's changed is the ridiculous level of baseless speculation has died down. Only about one in probably 100 posts has really added to our knowledge of realistic possibilities. This has never been important to an actual announcement...

----------


## PhiAlpha

Probably has nothing to do with the mystery towers but does anyone know why two 737s for a Turkish/Dutch airline are sitting out at Will Rogers right now? Corendon Airlines is headquartered in Turkey with a secondary HQ in Amsterdam and only flies scheduled service in Europe but does charter flights. These are two of their 8 planes. Seems like OKC would be a strange random charter location.

Corendon Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## kbsooner

> Just speculation but maybe maintenance or inspection of some kind?


Landing in Stillwater: Belgian aerospace company buys building for parts plant | The Journal Record

Maybe these guys?

----------


## catch22

Someone probably bought the airframes from that airline and are in OKC for maintenance, refurb, and repaint.

Has nothing to do with a tower.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I noticed those coming in to work early this morning but it was dark and didn't see anything special about them. There's always different kinds of airlines parked over there. Nothing special.

----------


## modernism

?Mystery Tower? Update | OKC Central

Like I said a few days ago, a new tower is not coming any time soon, now everybody can go back to living their daily lives, thank you.

----------


## Just the facts

I think news like this is only an indicator of how big an operation we are talking about.  It's all good.

----------


## Pete

Yep, I see this as confirmation of solid progress.

And you know something big is coming.

----------


## jedicurt

> ?Mystery Tower? Update | OKC Central
> 
> Like I said a few days ago, a new tower is not coming any time soon, now everybody can go back to living their daily lives, thank you.


guess your definition of soon and mine are slightly different.  when it comes to a massive deal such as this... even 6 months is soon.  We need to get out of this mindset of instant gratification and expecting everything to be right now, or else we don't care anymore

----------


## Dustin

I see this as confirmation as well!  Good times in OKC!

----------


## Anonymous.

I posted this shortly after the MLP announcement:




> The only thing that makes me think this is not the Stage Center tower is Steve saying the announcement of a new tower would be around this time. But this partnership could take months to finalize. And the news clearly states that the announcement of the headquarters would be at the close of the deal.



This basically only helps to solidify that this MLP is indeed the tower. It takes a long time to close a deal of this magnitude, so when Steve said announcement by end of March, it turns out the announcement was only the companies involved, and not the physical headquarter of said company. Could have been misunderstanding by Steve or that someone said to him "you will hear something by the end of March" and Steve may have innocently assumed this would be a more OKC oriented announcement as opposed to the blanket announcement of the deal.


Regardless, toting yourself as "I knew nothing would happen yet, I was right! you were wrong!" is like the kid in middle school claiming he heard a song before it got popular.



Times are good in OKC, let's enjoy them!

----------


## HangryHippo

I agree with Modernism on this one.  Just too much uncertainty floating around between Reuters' investigations into every OKC O&G company they find, the respective CEOs of CHK and SandRidge doing what they can to tank their companies, and whatever is going to happen with Hamm and Continental.  I just don't think a tower is coming and this deal is done.

----------


## modernism

The new MLP formed by OGE/CentertPoint is not going to be on Stage Center property, thank you.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I agree with Modernism on this one.  Just too much uncertainty floating around between Reuters' investigations into every OKC O&G company they find, the respective CEOs of CHK and SandRidge doing what they can to tank their companies, and whatever is going to happen with Hamm and Continental.  I just don't think a tower is coming and this deal is done.


Nothing is going to happen with Hamm and continental, that's kind of ridiculous. Sandridge and CHK's situations have nothing to do with the MLP and when they will announce something. Anything with SD and CHK regarding available office space will not develop quickly enough and will not have definite enough results to affect someone currently 90 days out from announcing that they are building or relocating to OKC. I'm not sure what is slowing this down, but the status of other companies' office space related to the slight chance of them relocating, at this point, doesn't have anything to do with it.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> The new MLP formed by OGE/CentertPoint is not going to be on Stage Center property, thank you.


Do you know, or is that an inference based on Steve's announcement.

----------


## BDP

> Nothing is going to happen with Hamm and continental, that's kind of ridiculous.


Well, the Street is not as comfortable as you are right now:

Oil Billionaire Harold Hamm's Divorce Could Be World's Most Expensive At Over $5 Billion - Forbes

----------


## HangryHippo

> Nothing is going to happen with Hamm and continental, that's kind of ridiculous. Sandridge and CHK's situations have nothing to do with the MLP and when they will announce something. Anything with SD and CHK regarding available office space will not develop quickly enough and will not have definite enough results to affect someone currently 90 days out from announcing that they are building or relocating to OKC. I'm not sure what is slowing this down, but the status of other companies' office space related to the slight chance of them relocating, at this point, doesn't have anything to do with it.


It actually could have a lot to do with it.  Continental is in a precarious spot with these divorce proceedings.  SandRidge and CHK's situations do have influence on whether a company would build a new building or wait it out for their space when they're sold off to the highest bidders.

----------


## hoya

I take this as confirmation that we're dealing with the MLP.  90 days is what we've been hearing for them to make an announcement, and now we find out no news on Mystery Tower for 90 days.

----------


## G.Walker

> Regarding new MLP via OGE/CenterPoint:
> 
> The location of the new company along with company name will be decided once the transaction closes, which is expected in 30-60 days. Enogex has approximately 700 employess in Oklahoma, and many of those are key field personnel servicing customer in the state. Regardless of where the company is headquarted, Enogex will continue to have a large prescense in the state, thank you.


This was Modernism's post a few days ago, and if you read it closely it states that the location of new headquarters has not been decided, and won't be decided until after transaction is done. So how can new MLP be at Stage Center if they don't even know for sure if company will be here in OKC?

----------


## Bellaboo

> The new MLP formed by OGE/CentertPoint is not going to be on Stage Center property, thank you.


I think you'd loose if you took this bet. Why do think the newly announced MLP will not be on the SC site ?

----------


## Bellaboo

> This was Modernism's post a few days ago, and if you read it closely it states that the location of new headquarters has not been decided, and won't be decided until after transaction is done. So how can new MLP be at Stage Center if they don't even know for sure if company will be here in OKC?


I think they already know, how many times did Steve say 'I'm not worried' when asked about the SC site falling through..?

----------


## G.Walker

> ?Mystery Tower? Update | OKC Central
> 
> Like I said a few days ago, a new tower is not coming any time soon, now everybody can go back to living their daily lives, thank you.


I am beginning to believe this.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Well, the Street is not as comfortable as you are right now:
> 
> Oil Billionaire Harold Hamm's Divorce Could Be World's Most Expensive At Over $5 Billion - Forbes


Fortunately the street is often wrong.

----------


## modernism

> I think you'd loose if you took this bet. Why do think the newly announced MLP will not be on the SC site ?


 :Sofa:

----------


## Bellaboo

> 


That's funny !

To be resalistic, When Devon announced that they were going to build an iconic tower for their new headquarters, it took a year and a half before they broke ground, and they were well into the process before their announcement. These kind of deals, especially when a major structure, take a lot of time to put together.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> It actually could have a lot to do with it.  Continental is in a precarious spot with these divorce proceedings.  SandRidge and CHK's situations do have influence on whether a company would build a new building or wait it out for their space when they're sold off to the highest bidders.


Harold Hamm is in a precarious position, not Continental. SD and CHK are far from guaranteed to be going anywhere even if sold. If someone did buy and completely move them, which given the location of the majority of their assets, I don't think will happen, it would take a while to go from deciding to move to actually doing it. If someone does move them, who is to say they would vacate all of either campus? Who is to say a purchaser would move them at all? If a company is strongly looking at or planning to move here within the next year or so, they aren't going to wait around to find out what happens. Why would a company not build a tower or find office space, just based on the slight chance that either CHK or SD is going to pack up and move? Say this company waits two years and both CHK and SD are still occupying their current locations and showing no signs of moving...that company just set itself behind 2 years in building its HQ. if a large company is that serious about moving here, they are going to base their decision on available office space, not what might be available in 2-3 years.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Harold Hamm is in a precarious position, not Continental. SD and CHK are far from guaranteed to be going anywhere even if sold. If someone did buy and completely move them, which given the location of the majority of their assets, I don't think will happen, it would take a while to go from deciding to move to actually doing it. If someone does move them, who is to say they would vacate all of either campus? Who is to say a purchaser would move them at all? If a company is strongly looking at or planning to move here within the next year or so, they aren't going to wait around to find out what happens. Why would a company not build a tower or find office space, just based on the slight chance that either CHK or SD is going to pack up and move? Say this company waits two years and both CHK and SD are still occupying their current locations and showing no signs of moving...that company just set itself behind 2 years in building its HQ. if a large company is that serious about moving here, they are going to base their decision on available office space, not what might be available in 2-3 years.


It's clear we disagree, so I suppose we'll just wait and see what happens with all four of these situations.

----------


## G.Walker

I think what happened was Beffort got excited and jumped the gun, saying something too early, which got everybody talking. I think we fed into it too early, and now we have to wait. Just think of that person who just now found out the possibility a new tower could be announced in 90 days, they are probably estactic. But us followers are suffering from knowing too much too early, and we all suffer from the same curse of following downtown Oklahoma City development.

----------


## adaniel

> Harold Hamm is in a precarious position, not Continental.


Not to get off topic, but that Reuters article on Continental really glossed over a lot of things and I thought it was highly premature. In a backhanded way, it inferred that Mrs. Hamm is a cold, bitter woman who is going to take her husband and the company to the cleaners and these are all the legal ways she can do it, because that's how all divorces play out right? 

Very few of the facts are known. We don't even know if they had a prenup or not. And given the fact they filed for divorce twice, only for it to be pulled, whats to say this won't either? Of course, adding all of these things in that story and making it less sensationalistic would garner less reads, clicks, ratings, etc. 

I'm not going to worry about them. If they have solid financial fundamentals they will be fine. Has a company worth anything close to what Continental is have to be sold or split off due to its company's CEO's divorce proceedings?

----------


## tillyato

For what it's worth, I don't think the new MLP will be the tower announcement. Continental, OGE, or an out-of-state company looking to move OKC are all much more likely IMHO.

----------


## G.Walker

Maybe the rumored new OGE tower is the new MLP tower we are thinking of? OGE would partially own the new tower, so technically it is an OGE tower, just a thought.

----------


## SOONER8693

> I agree with Modernism on this one.  Just too much uncertainty floating around between Reuters' investigations into every OKC O&G company they find, the respective CEOs of CHK and SandRidge doing what they can to tank their companies, and whatever is going to happen with Hamm and Continental.  I just don't think a tower is coming and this deal is done.


Agree. I think we been had on  this one.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Not to get off topic, but that Reuters article on Continental really glossed over a lot of things and I thought it was highly premature. In a backhanded way, it inferred that Mrs. Hamm is a cold, bitter woman who is going to take her husband and the company to the cleaners and these are all the legal ways she can do it, because that's how all divorces play out right? 
> 
> Very few of the facts are known. We don't even know if they had a prenup or not. And given the fact they filed for divorce twice, only for it to be pulled, whats to say this won't either? Of course, adding all of these things in that story and making it less sensationalistic would garner less reads, clicks, ratings, etc. 
> 
> I'm not going to worry about them. If they have solid financial fundamentals they will be fine. Has a company worth anything close to what Continental is have to be sold or split off due to its company's CEO's divorce proceedings?


For what it is worth.  When it comes to divorce, Oklahoma is an equitable distribution state not equal distribution.  So what it boils down to is how much growth there is beyond what he already had.  Of course I am sure that is sizable.

----------


## Dustin

I just look at this post by Steve and I know everything is going to be alright...

----------


## G.Walker

To note, Steve said *up to* 90 days, so it doesn't necessarily mean it will take a full 90 days, maybe just 30, who knows!

----------


## okcpulse

My goodness.  People are reading WAY too much into Hamm's divorce.  No one knows for sure what's involved in his divorce proceedings, and this isn't the first time Hamm has divorced, and Continental is still ticking.  All of the speculation isn't even rational.

Reuters is definitely stirring up trouble in OKC.  I am very irritated with Reuters right now.  But then again, they are no different than any other national media outlet that loves dirty laundry.  There are plenty of other companies they can investigate, some that are seriously corrupted.

----------


## BDP

> My goodness.  People are reading WAY too much into Hamm's divorce.


Well, it's hard to make too much out of the division of $11 billion in assets, but no doubt a soft landing is possible. She may not get half, but she'll get some and it just depends on what she does with it. It's likely Hamm will lose majority ownership (she'd only needs to be receive a little over 20% of his holdings for that to happen), so it depends on if she cashes in on it and how and what kind of affect will that have on the executive make up of the company. But, she also might just serve on the board and all is fine, la de dah.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Well, it's hard to make too much out of the division of $11 billion in assets, but no doubt a soft landing is possible. She may not get half, but she'll get some and it just depends on what she does with it. It's likely Hamm will lose majority ownership (she'd only needs to be receive a little over 20% of his holdings for that to happen), so it depends on if she cashes in on it and how and what kind of affect will that have on the executive make up of the company. But, she also might just serve on the board and all is fine, la de dah.


And which one is more likely?  Exactly...  Continental is in a precarious situation, as I said earlier.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Note to self...

Hmmm....the Devon Tower has roughly been done for a year, year and a half tops...all that time we were so focused on the everyday happenings of the Devon Tower that other companies had all the time and non interference/head scratching from skyscraper nuts like myself that there was plenty of time for them to work behind closed curtains.  Now that OKC is without construction I'm getting ancy for a new announcement, but I should realize that these are complicated processes and take time to finalize.  I shouldn't believe everything Mark Beffort says.  I'm just happy if new ground is broken on a new skyscraper no later than 2015.  Man, with all the MAPS3 projects and this and whatever else there may be, my city is gonna look and be grand in 2020!

----------


## Teo9969

> Well, it's hard to make too much out of the division of $11 billion in assets, but no doubt a soft landing is possible. She may not get half, but she'll get some and it just depends on what she does with it. It's likely Hamm will lose majority ownership (she'd only needs to be receive a little over 20% of his holdings for that to happen), so it depends on if she cashes in on it and how and what kind of affect will that have on the executive make up of the company. But, she also might just serve on the board and all is fine, la de dah.


It's actually about 30% of Hamm's holdings for him to lose "majority ownership". However the more I think about this, the more I think she's going to need to get close to 50% of his holdings for Hamm to lose his power. If she takes 30% of his holdings, he'd still have something like 47.5%...that's just so much power for a single entity in a public company. Just look at the largest shareholders in the link below. Combined, they account for just under 10%...Combined...

Even losing half of his shares, he will still yield more power than anyone else in the company...except his ex-wife. That will be the only way that this becomes a big ordeal. But 1. I think it's unlikely she gets half and 2. I tend to think she'll liquidate the stocks she gets, rather than trying to wield power in the board room.

Shareholder Overview for CLR Continental Resources Inc including Fund Owner Activity, Style, Equity & Debt Ownership, and Enterprise Value

----------


## G.Walker

This thread is officially dead...

----------


## Dustin

> This thread is officially dead...


Wut?

----------


## pickles

Some people are super emotional about buildings.

----------


## G22

> Some people are super emotional about buildings.


I think it's more about the potential for OKC. Towers provide evidence of big things happening.  If another major company comes downtown and CHK and SD survive it will have a major impact on the state.   If three new towers get built over the next seven years that will mean thousands of new high paying jobs.  

With thousands of high paying jobs in OKC more business will move to Oklahoma, we will get even more jobs (high and low paying) and new retailers will come to OKC.  More entertainment venues will follow the high paying jobs. Entrepreneurs will come where big things are happening and they will create jobs too.  People that make major business and political decisions will come to OKC for business reasons and they will do business with Oklahoma companies and this will create even more business opportunities.   Outsiders will begin to respect OKC as a major player and we will stop being known across the country as a backwards sleepy state.  We don't have a beach or mountains with ski resorts so we really need major companies that provide great jobs to raise the local profile and make our city a household name across the nation.  Oklahoma City may not get another chance like this for decades.  We need to get things right this time and the positive impact will last for decades.   Progress happens when people have money to spend.  A couple thousand jobs that pay employees $30,000 a year would be good but a couple thousand jobs that pay employees $65,000 a year will really make a major difference to OKC.

----------


## Steve

I am not worried.

----------


## SoonerBoy18

Like I have been saying all along. This thread needs to r.i.p. Good Night. Thanks too every body counting their chicken before they hatch haha.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Like I have been saying all along. This thread needs to r.i.p. Good Night. Thanks too every body counting their chicken before they hatch haha.


We have all been enlightened. Thank you. :P

----------


## HOT ROD

> I am not worried.


I trust in Steve!!! I also am not worried!

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I trust in Steve!!! I also am not worried!


Ditto.

----------


## hoya

> This was Modernism's post a few days ago, and if you read it closely it states that the location of new headquarters has not been decided, and won't be decided until after transaction is done. So how can new MLP be at Stage Center if they don't even know for sure if company will be here in OKC?


I don't think it's official.  They certainly can't know where the new HQ building will be if they don't know which city it is going to be in.  And no one is going to "know" until everything is properly in place.  That said, in this case it is easy to see which way the wind is blowing.

----------


## GoThunder

> I am not worried.


Everyone can be pessimistic and predict that there is going to be no tower.  But if Steve is not worried, I am not worried.

----------


## dankrutka

> This thread is officially dead...


It really is amazing how much your opinion fluctuates on this thread. Less emotion, more patience will serve you well.

----------


## kevinpate

I sometimes worry about three new things a day.  A new tower ain't one of them.

----------


## MikeLucky

Oh good... so how about all of you that think the tower and this thread are dead, just go ahead and stay the hell out of the thread completely?  You officially have no reason to be posting in here anymore.  That should make everyone happy.

----------


## Bellaboo

I waited almost 30 years for the last significant tower (Devon), waiting a few more months is nothing.

----------


## modernism

> Yep, I see this as confirmation of solid progress.
> 
> And you know something big is coming.


This big?

----------


## Anonymous.

Phillips 66 forms pipeline and terminal MLP | Big News Network

----------


## Bellaboo

> This big?


Now that one is big.  The* rumor* we've heard for the last year was somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 floors.

----------


## Dustin

> This big?


Pretty tower.  What lucky city is getting it?

----------


## MikeLucky

> Pretty tower.  What lucky city is getting it?


That's The CTF Guangzhou...  Guangzhou, China

----------


## Dustin

> That's The CTF Guangzhou...  Guangzhou, China


China, of course.

----------


## Urbanized



----------


## Mississippi Blues

> This big?


This is a pretty skyscraper. Shame something similar will probably never be built in OKC.

----------


## OKCRT

> This is a pretty skyscraper. Shame something similar will probably never be built in OKC.


I bet the new Phillips tower will look better. Might OKC be the new hub for these MLPs? I am still looking for Shell to pop up with a new tower also.

----------


## Dustin

> I bet the new Phillips tower will look better.


?  

I don't remember hearing about this.  Is there a link?

----------


## Just the facts

> ?  
> 
> I don't remember hearing about this.  Is there a link?


You're reading it  :Smile:

----------


## OKCRT

You heard it here 1st.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I bet the new Phillips tower will look better. Might OKC be the new hub for these MLPs? I am still looking for Shell to pop up with a new tower also.





> You heard it here 1st.


I'm assuming you're making a prediction? Or are you talking about Houston?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I am not worried.


I call Steve's bluff.  He just wants us masses to go easy into the night...........ANNNNNNNNND.....the months ahead.....

----------


## Teo9969

> I bet the new Phillips tower will look better. *Might OKC be the new hub for these MLPs?* I am still looking for Shell to pop up with a new tower also.


While that would be AWESOME, I think if that were the case our heads would be spinning with rumors and information from many reliable sources. If Phillips, Shell, and Enogex/Centerpoint were all slated for OKC then we'd have heard a lot more sites than the 3 major (non-Preftakes) sites that have come up, because there would have been a lot more movement in the market of purchasing these properties.

----------


## Praedura

Just read through Steve's online chat today...

Wow! Steve has ABSOLUTELY 100% GUARANTEED that a major massive new tower for downtown OKC will be announced by (or before) July 1, 2013!!!

And he even backed it up by saying that if, for some reason, it doesn't come to pass, he will personally stand in the middle of Myriad Gardens and eat his hat.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

 :Lies: 

Ok, I lied. He said no such thing. I'm a disgraceful liar.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Three words.

I'm. Not. Worried.

----------


## Teo9969

> 


Thanks for making a better version of this for me. most consistent text and of course, Thunder colors.

----------


## Dustin

> Three words.
> 
> I'm. Not. Worried.


Three more words.

Neither. Am. I.

----------


## Urbanized

> Thanks for making a better version of this for me. most consistent text and of course, Thunder colors.


LOL, sorry I must have missed your version. Here I was thinking I was pretty clever. Thanks for noticing the Thunder colors; that part was NOT an accident...

----------


## edcrunk

> I sometimes worry about three new things a day.  A new tower ain't one of them.


I can't imagine having 3 new things each day to worry about.

----------


## dcsooner

> Just read through Steve's online chat today...
> 
> Wow! Steve has ABSOLUTELY 100% GUARANTEED that a major massive new tower for downtown OKC will be announced by (or before) July 1, 2013!!!
> 
> And he even backed it up by saying that if, for some reason, it doesn't come to pass, he will personally stand in the middle of Myriad Gardens and eat his hat.
> 
> .
> .
> .
> ...


Call me a pessimist, but, I have lived in and/or followed Oklahoma goings on all my life and I know of too many "projects" to recount planned in Oklahoma that never see the light of day. In this case, I will believe it when I see it. If something does occur expect it to be "less" than what we expect, Hope I am wrong, but history says I won't be.

----------


## Bellaboo

> *Call me a pessimist,* but, I have lived in and/or followed Oklahoma goings on all my life and I know of too many "projects" to recount planned in Oklahoma that never see the light of day. In this case, I will believe it when I see it. If something does occur expect it to be "less" than what we expect, Hope I am wrong, but history says I won't be.


Yep, you are a pessimist.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> ...Hope I am wrong, but history says I won't be...


History also says Oklahoma City shouldn't be a city that is considered by many people that are looking for a new start in one of the best economies in the nation. History can tell you a lot of things, but it can also show how fast things change. History says a lot of things that the present & recent past are proving to be just that, history.

I expect something to happen & I expect it to be on par or above what we've expected. But just like you're a pessimist, I may be too optimistic. We'll see soon enough.

----------


## GoThunder

> History also says Oklahoma City shouldn't be a city that is considered by many people that are looking for a new start in one of the best economies in the nation. History can tell you a lot of things, but it can also show how fast things change. History says a lot of things that the present & recent past are proving to be just that, history.


Exactly.  If you look around at all the development going on in DT and Bricktown, as well as other districts, it takes about two seconds to realize things are different here now.

----------


## okcpulse

It is easy to remember the projects that went unrealized.  It is equally as easy to forget those that are realized.  Most of all, it is easy to take for granted those that exceed our expectations.  Devon Energy Center was discussed as a 37 story tower.  Now, it is a 50 story icon.  None of us, not even the original visionaries of MAPS, ever expected private investment downtown to run into billions of dollars.  

And yet, when one project goes unrealized, we forget the entire success story.  My fellow OKCitians, enjoy our city now, each and every day.  Before we notice, new proposals for downtown will catch us by surprise.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Three more words.
> 
> Neither. Am. I.


Want. A. Surprise.

----------


## OU Adonis

Three words here.

We.Are.Going.Nuts.Here!

----------


## lasomeday

It amazes me seeing the developments in NYC and Houston.  I just can't believe so many new projects in the last 5 months being announced in NYC with the economy and increasing taxes.  The projects in Houston just seem to be multiplying.  It was funny seeing one picture of the projects and you could see the humidity and smog hazing the buildings in the distance.  I just hope we can get one of these projects here.  I would love to see a 30-40 story residential tower somewhere downtown.  Something new and modern, I would definitely move into one.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

I know that this has absolutely nothing to do with Oklahoma City or the mystery tower, but can someone point me in the direction of some sort of talk forum for Houston that shows the projects going up, if one does exist?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I know that this has absolutely nothing to do with Oklahoma City or the mystery tower, but can someone point me in the direction of some sort of talk forum for Houston that shows the projects going up, if one does exist?


Yes, SidBurgess created a wonderful collection of websites. (I just checked the website and its not working for me at the moment)

Here's the thread: http://www.okctalk.com/current-event...forums-us.html

Here's the Houston forum: HAIF - Houston's Leading News Forum

Hope this helps  :Smile:

----------


## lasomeday

> I know that this has absolutely nothing to do with Oklahoma City or the mystery tower, but can someone point me in the direction of some sort of talk forum for Houston that shows the projects going up, if one does exist?


Here is what I saw.


Houston
[wiki=http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=673634][/wiki]

New York City
[wiki=http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=341146&page=128][/wiki]

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Yes, SidBurgess created a wonderful collection of websites. (I just checked the website and its not working for me at the moment)
> 
> Here's the thread: http://www.okctalk.com/current-event...forums-us.html
> 
> Here's the Houston forum: HAIF - Houston's Leading News Forum
> 
> Hope this helps





> Here is what I saw.
> 
> 
> Houston
> [wiki=http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=673634][/wiki]
> 
> New York City
> [wiki=http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=341146&page=128][/wiki]


Sweet! Thanks guys!!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

HOUSTON | Projects & Construction - SkyscraperCity

NEW YORK | Projects & Construction - Page 128 - SkyscraperCity

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I really like this one in China. 



Wuhan Greenland Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## Easy180

> I really like this one in China. 
> 
> 
> 
> Wuhan Greenland Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Really understated

----------


## HotStuff80

> I really like this one in China. 
> 
> 
> 
> Wuhan Greenland Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Ditto!  Too bad they didn't build that 2,000 foot (Condos) in Chicago.   :Frown:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Ditto!  Too bad they didn't build that 2,000 foot (Condos) in Chicago.


You talking about The Spire? That would have been awesome!

----------


## soonerguru

How does everyone feel about the circumcision of the Chinese tower?

----------


## Thundercitizen

Looks a little more Buck Rogers'sy to me.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Though I would honestly rather trade all the smaller Chase Tower sized buildings around it for one really tall tower.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

^^^^^ YES! lol

----------


## Just the facts

Give me the skyline of Edmonton any day over a couple 1000' buildings.  Their tallest building is only 479'.

----------


## s00nr1

If only our CBD sat up on a hill like that....

----------


## Just the facts

> If only our CBD sat up on a hill like that....


Most of it does.  The north bank of the historic flood plain starts at about Main St.

----------


## Praedura

Folks, this is amazing! Chesapeake to build a giant skyscraper in downtown OKC:

Chesapeake Energy announces plans for large skyscraper in downtown Oklahoma City

Here's the text:

April 1, 2013
Royters News Service

Chesapeake Energy revealed plans today for a massive new skyscraper in downtown Oklahoma City.
The plans call for a 1300 foot tower to be built on the current site of the First National Center
building, which will be demolished to make room for the new structure.

"We're excited to announce this new building", said Fred, a spokesperson for Chesapeake. 
"In fact, we're plumb ecstatic. We feel that this new skyscraper will not only symbolize the
strength and solidity of our company, but it will just plain knock people's socks off.
You could say we're putting the 'Peak' into Chesapeake!"

This development comes as a surprise to many given the financial trouble that the company has
recently experienced. In the past, Chesapeake has concentrated on purchasing and developing
real estate far from downtown, much of which is being divested now. But according to Fred,
that was all part of the master plan.

"You know, we all got stuck in Aubrey's campus style development plans for a number of years.
And we went along, because, as you know, Aub is a very persuasive guy", Fred said with a smile.
"But after awhile, we began to realize it was a little nuts. Now that we've gotten rid of him,
we can return to our original idea which is to build ginormous skyscrapers in downtown OKC."

Originally, the company sought to build on the Stage Center site, which had recently been
placed on the market. But another company got there first. "Yes, we were quite interested in
the Stage Center site, but then we found out the Exxon Mobil had already purchased it and
plans to build a 1200 foot tower there." Fred related. "Well, you can imagine our disgust
at this. I mean, we're not going to let a bunch of bozos from south of the Red River upstage
us! So, if they can build a 1200 footer, we can build a 1300 footer. See how that works?"

But with their original desired site no longer available, the company had to scramble to find a 
suitable location. "We were thinking of building in Bricktown because we heard that's where
all the action is in downtown. In fact, there was a great spot available next to Toby Keith's
that really had our eye, but what do you know? Kevin Durant decided to build his little
restaurant there. What are we, cursed or something?", Fred stated with a smile. "But you know,
we all love Kevin in OKC, so it's alright -- we wish him the best".

Finally, they managed to find the perfect location. "Well, looking all around downtown we
realized that there was this old building just sitting there that nobody cared about and so
we decided, hey, why not." Fred commented. "I mean, the First National Center was cool and all
back in the day, but it's really old now. Really, really old. So who's going to miss this
thing? Problem solved."

When asked if the First National Center might be considered a historical building that will
be missed by lovers of great architecture, Fred was taken a little by surprise. "Oh really?
Well, I guess there are always a few of those types that will complain. Anyway, that's the way
it goes".

Aubrey McClendon, former CEO of Chesapeake was contacted for comment on this new downtown
skyscaper. "Wha, really? Man, that's so childish", said McClendon as he rolled his eyes.
"Look guys, while they're building their meaningless downtown phallic symbol, I will be
amassing a giant swath of land in the true heart of America, suburbia. And there I will 
create a community of inter-connecting intellectual and social hubs that will rival the greatest
institutes of learning in the world. Lots of big trees and flowing fountains -- the whole works".

Construction of the new Chesapeake skyscraper is set to begin July 1, 2013. It will take
six days to build. On the seventh day they will rest.

----------


## betts

I doubt too many people had to get farther than the first line to see its an April Fools post.  But it was funny.

----------


## bchris02

April First is the dumbest holiday on the face of the planet.

----------


## Bellaboo

I believe this would have been last Friday - says 4 days ago. I do not have a login to see the details, but it says 2.5 billion in loans (secured and Unsecured) had been approved...?



Sign In


4 days ago – Centerpoint Energy and Enogex have secured a three-year, US$1.05 billion term loan facility, as well as a five-year, US$1.4 billion unsecured ...

----------


## Praedura

> This was initially reported: CenterPoint Energy, OGE Energy Corp. and ArcLight Capital to Combine Assets to Form Leading Midstream Partnership - MarketWatch


No, this is new info -- obtaining two substantial loans, one secured, one unsecured. A total of 2.45 billion dollars. That's a lot of kale!

----------


## Praedura

They're in a hurry to get something going. The loans mean they don't want to wait for an IPO to generate funds. Maybe it's all just infrastructure. But two and a half billion is a lot of infrastructure. Makes you wonder....

----------


## Teo9969

> They're in a hurry to get something going. The loans mean they don't want to wait for an IPO to generate funds. Maybe it's all just infrastructure. But two and a half billion is a lot of infrastructure. Makes you wonder....


$500M to $1.5B for a headquarters and the rest to hire employees and conduct normal business operations.

It's a lot of money, but a very large chunk of that will be spent on things other than a headquarters.

----------


## Bellaboo

> No, this is new info -- obtaining two substantial loans, one secured, one unsecured. A total of 2.45 billion dollars. That's a lot of kale!


I was wondering if they now have an official name, since they have actually secured loans ?

How about CenterGex for a name ???

----------


## Praedura

I think I may have to amend my response to Sid just a bit.

The info about actually obtaining the loans is new, but the intent of getting the loans may have been out for awhile. A least it appears in the following investor summary:

http://mlpprotocol.files.wordpress.c...ion-031513.pdf

This is a good read and has TONS of info about the new MLP. Go grab it.

----------


## Praedura

According to the investory summary pdf, the 1.05 billion (secured) loan is being used to pay off debt CenterPoint owes to a subsidiary. The 1.4 billion (unsecured) loan is being used for liquidity -- i.e. startup cash. So any new headquarters would have to come out of the 1.4 B.

----------


## OKCRT

> According to the investory summary pdf, the 1.05 billion (secured) loan is being used to pay off debt CenterPoint owes to a subsidiary. The 1.4 billion (unsecured) loan is being used for liquidity -- i.e. startup cash. So any new headquarters would have to come out of the 1.4 B.


I bet a billion would buy a nice sparkly tower in downtown OKC!

How much did the Devon tower cost BTW?

----------


## MikeLucky

> I bet a billion would buy a nice sparkly tower in downtown OKC!
> 
> How much did the Devon tower cost BTW?


It was reported at $750 million.

----------


## Just the facts

> It was reported at $750 million.


...but I think it came in closer to $500 million, thus the P180 funding problem.

----------


## catch22

I was thinking today, there better not be announcement today. Would make all of our head's spin off trying to decide if real or not.

----------


## Pete

> ...but I think it came in closer to $500 million, thus the P180 funding problem.


No, it was still around $750 million.

What affected P180 was the fact that more went towards labor and less towards materials; the latter being taxable.

----------


## huskysooner

Hate to be so cryptic, but I want to give everyone something to look forward to this week following Steve's guidance on another 90 days until something is solid on the Stage Center site. Look for an exciting announcement soon that will be very impressive for OKC. NOT tower or Enogex/CNP related.

----------


## lasomeday

> Hate to be so cryptic, but I want to give everyone something to look forward to this week following Steve's guidance on another 90 days until something is solid on the Stage Center site. Look for an exciting announcement soon that will be very impressive for OKC. NOT tower or Enogex/CNP related.


Is this announcement for something permanent, or an event?

----------


## hoya

> Give me the skyline of Edmonton any day over a couple 1000' buildings.  Their tallest building is only 479'.


I agree.  It's hard to tell how tall buildings are in the distance.  A skyline like the above looks great.  I wish ours had that density.  I think it really becomes impressive when buildings start to overlap each other, when you look past one and see part of another behind it.

----------


## hoya

Just for fun, I was looking for cost estimates to build a generic office building.  I didn't think I'd actually find anything.  But I wanted at least a ballpark figure to see what it would cost to build, say, a 10 story brick building similar to the Hightower.  I think OKC could use a ton more buildings of this size, and there should be many, many entities in the city that could afford to finance something of that scale (as opposed to Devon Tower, where there are a tiny handful of businesses that could afford it and you just have to keep your fingers crossed and hope that they do it).

Anyway, I ran across this website:

Construction costs

If these are accurate, I think it's quite reasonable to think we could spur much more downtown development with a lot more midrises.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

I'd kill to see more midrises in downtown. I love sleek, shiny buildings like Devon, but smaller scale buildings will do so much more for the skyline in terms of density. I like huge skyscrapers, but OKC's skyline is not matured enough to be worried about a super-tall. I do think we'll see some 350-750 footers though over the next 10 years or so.

----------


## coov23

> Hate to be so cryptic, but I want to give everyone something to look forward to this week following Steve's guidance on another 90 days until something is solid on the Stage Center site. Look for an exciting announcement soon that will be very impressive for OKC. NOT tower or Enogex/CNP related.


You mean, like a movie being filmed in okc?

----------


## Just the facts

> Just for fun, I was looking for cost estimates to build a generic office building.  I didn't think I'd actually find anything.  But I wanted at least a ballpark figure to see what it would cost to build, say, a 10 story brick building similar to the Hightower.  I think OKC could use a ton more buildings of this size, and there should be many, many entities in the city that could afford to finance something of that scale (as opposed to Devon Tower, where there are a tiny handful of businesses that could afford it and you just have to keep your fingers crossed and hope that they do it).
> 
> Anyway, I ran across this website:
> 
> Construction costs
> 
> If these are accurate, I think it's quite reasonable to think we could spur much more downtown development with a lot more midrises.


Thanks for posting that link.  As my curent line of work seems to be a dying industry I have been working on what to do next and I would love to get into developing 5 to 10 story buildings.  I agree with your assesment of the Edmonton skyline.  My favorite skylines are the ones where buildings are all about the same size and close together.

----------


## betts

JTF, are you at all involved in Jacksonville stuff? Do they have a forum like this one?  As you know, my son lives in Springfield and he tells me things are starting to stir there and on Main St. If he weren't leaving for business school in Chicago this fall,  I'd tell him to start a site like this and get involved in JAX politics.  I think there's a lot of potential there.

And back to topic, not holding my breath on any tower.  Surprise me, someone!

----------


## HangryHippo

> Hate to be so cryptic, but I want to give everyone something to look forward to this week following Steve's guidance on another 90 days until something is solid on the Stage Center site. Look for an exciting announcement soon that will be very impressive for OKC. NOT tower or Enogex/CNP related.


Is this to do with William H. Macy's directorial debut filming in Guthrie?  Can you give us a little more so we'll at least know when the announcement is made?  Or are you just blowing smoke?

----------


## Just the facts

> JTF, are you at all involved in Jacksonville stuff? Do they have a forum like this one?  As you know, my son lives in Springfield and he tells me things are starting to stir there and on Main St. If he weren't leaving for business school in Chicago this fall,  I'd tell him to start a site like this and get involved in JAX politics.  I think there's a lot of potential there.
> 
> And back to topic, not holding my breath on any tower.  Surprise me, someone!


Jacksonville has something a little similar but not on this level.

Metro Jacksonville | Covering Downtown Jacksonville FL, Northeast Florida, Jacksonville Transit, History, Neighborhoods, Photos

The problems here in Jax are really hard to put a finger on.  We have all the right ingredients but for some reason it taste like crap when you mix them together.  In addition to downtown we have no less than 9 really great walkable urban neighborhoods, and several more that could easily be revitalized.

The challenge is that a lot of our residents come from the NE and all they want to do is buy a single family home on 1/5 acre in a subdivision and complain about suburban traffic.  There is also a lot on animosity between the oldtimers as well.  Back in the 60's Jacksonville had a lot of suburbs but they started annexing all of them to create the City/County combo.  A lot of the oldtimers hated that so you get pockets of resistance every time an initiative is announced.

And finally, the suburban mindset is just too ingrained into too many people.  A lot of businesses in Jacksonville are back-office operations of NE companies and they are 100% sold on the office park idea.  We have some really high profile companies here that employ 10’s of thousands, but they want them spread across 50 acres with parking lots all around them.  It would take 20 years or more to get people here to the same spot the residents of OKC are now.  That is a fight I am not up for.

Jacksonville claim to fame: Home of the first office park and we took it to the extreme.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/art...st-office-park

----------


## pickles

> Is this to do with William H. Macy's directorial debut filming in Guthrie?  Can you give us a little more so we'll at least know when the announcement is made?  Or are you just blowing smoke?


This week's news is substantially more important than this guy's movie.

----------


## Bellaboo

> This week's news is substantially more important than this guy's movie.


Please give us a clue. Thanks

----------


## HangryHippo

> This week's news is substantially more important than this guy's movie.


So, pickles knows about huskysooner's mystery news, but no one else does...?

----------


## pickles

Not that it isn't a nice thing that he's filming here, but still...

----------


## bchris02

Maybe its Trader Joe's opening downtown.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Not that it isn't a nice thing that he's filming here, but still...


So can you give us a better clue as to what this might be?

----------


## 1972ford

Anything new in the last month have not been around for awhile

----------


## Just the facts

> Anything new in the last month have not been around for awhile


Not really - everyone is just in 'wait and see' mode.  The biggest item is that OG&E and CenterPoint are forming a joint $11 billion company and the hope is that it will be located in OKC.

Oh, and also there is a guy who knows someone who overheard something and a big annoucement is coming up in a few weeks, or maybe it was few months.  Anyhow, once the big annoucment is made he'll let us know that is what he was talking about.

----------


## metro

Grand Prix race in OK maybe? I know it's still a strong possibility.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> So can you give us a better clue as to what this might be?


Announcement is tomorrow!  Gov. Fallen is going to hold a press conference.

----------


## bchris02

> Jacksonville has something a little similar but not on this level.
> 
> Metro Jacksonville | Covering Downtown Jacksonville FL, Northeast Florida, Jacksonville Transit, History, Neighborhoods, Photos
> 
> The problems here in Jax are really hard to put a finger on.  We have all the right ingredients but for some reason it taste like crap when you mix them together.  In addition to downtown we have no less than 9 really great walkable urban neighborhoods, and several more that could easily be revitalized.
> 
> The challenge is that a lot of our residents come from the NE and all they want to do is buy a single family home on 1/5 acre in a subdivision and complain about suburban traffic.  There is also a lot on animosity between the oldtimers as well.  Back in the 60's Jacksonville had a lot of suburbs but they started annexing all of them to create the City/County combo.  A lot of the oldtimers hated that so you get pockets of resistance every time an initiative is announced.
> 
> And finally, the suburban mindset is just too ingrained into too many people.  A lot of businesses in Jacksonville are back-office operations of NE companies and they are 100% sold on the office park idea.  We have some really high profile companies here that employ 10’s of thousands, but they want them spread across 50 acres with parking lots all around them.  It would take 20 years or more to get people here to the same spot the residents of OKC are now.  That is a fight I am not up for.
> ...


Interesting perspective on Jax. Over on City-Data forums they insist that Jacksonville is a good ways ahead of OKC. With the exception of having beaches nearby, I don't think that is the case. OKC is fortunate to have people that get that a great downtown makes a great city. A lot of places, even today, are still focused on suburbs.

----------


## Praedura

> Announcement is tomorrow!  Gov. Fallen is going to hold a press conference.


Aha! Some corporation is opening a new branch (or expanding an existing one) in OKC that will result in hundreds of new high paying jobs -- a la Boeing!

That's my guess anyway.

----------


## coov23

Call me naive, but it sure does feel like a drawn out April Fools joke. I started this thread 152 pages ago. I'm becoming cynical. Yep, the guy who started this thread is becoming OnlyOne. A very cynical poster.

----------


## bchris02

Anything announced April 1 you can't believe until you see it.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Call me naive, but it sure does feel like a drawn out April Fools joke. I started this thread 152 pages ago. I'm becoming cynical. Yep, the guy who started this thread is becoming OnlyOne. A very cynical poster.


There can only be one OnlyOne!

----------


## BigD Misey

> Hate to be so cryptic, but I want to give everyone something to look forward to this week following Steve's guidance on another 90 days until something is solid on the Stage Center site. Look for an exciting announcement soon that will be very impressive for OKC. NOT tower or Enogex/CNP related.


Possibly the Astros minor league contract will be signed with Red Hawks? Fc Oklahoma schedule? HSR update. Do tell!

----------


## pickles

> Aha! Some corporation is opening a new branch (or expanding an existing one) in OKC that will result in hundreds of new high paying jobs -- a la Boeing!
> 
> That's my guess anyway.


That would be a good thing, right?

----------


## lasomeday

Governor Mary Fallin
6 hours ago.

Tomorrow, we'll have a major jobs and economic development announcement for Oklahoma! Stay tuned for the details!


That is from Gov Fallin's facebook page.

----------


## huskysooner

> Not really - everyone is just in 'wait and see' mode.  The biggest item is that OG&E and CenterPoint are forming a joint $11 billion company and the hope is that it will be located in OKC.
> 
> Oh, and also *there is a guy who knows someone who overheard something and a big annoucement is coming up in a few weeks, or maybe it was few months.  Anyhow, once the big annoucment is made he'll let us know that is what he was talking about*.



Not exactly - endeavoring not to be one of those types. Guess we'll find out tomorrow! Hold on to your hats boys and girls...

----------


## HangryHippo

I'm definitely not the only one that thinks this mystery tower isn't happening. But I'll take the cynical poster title.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> ...I started this thread 152 pages ago. I'm becoming cynical. Yep, the guy who started this thread...


Well, ahem, as the guy who owns the intellectual property for this thread (http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-d...tml#post506779), I am still quite optimistic about our chances of getting another towering masterpiece to grace our fair skyline soon, or a little later than soon.

----------


## dankrutka

> I'm definitely not the only one that thinks this mystery tower isn't happening. But I'll take the cynical poster title.


That is pretty cynical based on the evidence. I don't assume anything is done until its announced and construction is underway (and even then it's not guaranteed). I also know plans can change, but if I had to guess, I think there will be one announced this year, and possibly within the next couple months. Time will tell.

----------


## bchris02

> I'm definitely not the only one that thinks this mystery tower isn't happening. But I'll take the cynical poster title.


Steve has said repeatedly he isn't worried.  Yes, there is a chance the tower could not happen, but I think its more likely it will than wont until we hear differently.

----------


## Just the facts

> Not exactly - endeavoring not to be one of those types. Guess we'll find out tomorrow! Hold on to your hats boys and girls...


Sorry, that comment wasn't aim at you or anyone else in particular.  Just a general comment that we were still living off rumors and educated guesses.  However, the press conference seems promissing.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Gov. Fallin Planning Announcement On Major Economic Development - News9.com


Okay, about 3 weeks ago, I sat next to an executive with the Chrysler Corporation from New York at the Thunder game. He told me that he was presenting 15 CNG trucks to the state and had a meeting with the Governor the next day. My tickets are Club level and the Thunder controls the six next to me. I meet all kinds of interesting people in those seats.


And by the way, this was his first visit to OKC, said he was duly impressed with the downtown area, and wanted to know how to get to the Memorial.

----------


## Pete

I've moved all the posts on the GE Global Research Center here:

http://www.okctalk.com/local-busines...ch-center.html

----------


## Praedura

Looks like the Midland tower may actually come to pass:

MIDLAND | Energy Tower at City Center | 869 FT | 53 FLOORS - Page 2 - SkyscraperPage Forum

----------


## Just the facts

I hope not.  It will be an urban disaster for them and will be a case study for the next 50 years on how NOT to rehab a downtown.  But, people like tall shinny things so it will probably be built.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I hope not.  It will be an urban disaster for them and will be a case study for the next 50 years on how NOT to rehab a downtown.  But, people like tall shinny things so it will probably be built.


urban disaster?

----------


## Just the facts

> urban disaster?


Yep, but 1) This isn't the right thread to discuss it, and 2) It's Midland, I really don't care that much what mistakes they make other than being able to reference them later as an example to others.

----------


## hoya

I will not say it will be a disaster.  I will say it is not optimal.

----------


## dcsooner

> I've moved all the posts on the GE Global Research Center here:
> 
> http://www.okctalk.com/local-busines...ch-center.html


So does anyone know if this was the long anticipated announcement wrt a Tower but really is a really significant research center. If so can we close this thread so that we can quit waiting for some sort of announcement of a DT tower?

----------


## Just the facts

The GE faciility was a topic just passing through on the Mystery Tower Thread.  They aren't related.

----------


## Anonymous.

> So does anyone know if this was the long anticipated announcement wrt a Tower but really is a really significant research center. If so can we close this thread so that we can quit waiting for some sort of announcement of a DT tower?



_Really?_

Did you even try to find out that answer for yourself?

----------


## dcsooner

No

----------


## MikeLucky

> I hope not.  It will be an urban disaster for them and will be a case study for the next 50 years on how NOT to rehab a downtown.  But, people like tall shinny things so it will probably be built.


Or, it could serve it's intended purpose perfectly and become iconic beacause it stands out...  even if it doesn't spur any other growth, it is still far from being a disaster.  In fact, just being built will make it a success by pretty much any measure.

----------


## Bellaboo

> So does anyone know if this was the long anticipated announcement wrt a Tower but really is a really significant research center. If so can we close this thread so that we can quit waiting for some sort of announcement of a DT tower?


The Mystery Tower is rumored to be at the Stage Center location, it's presumed to be Enogex/Centerpoint Midstream MLP's combined functions to be a new HQ.

General Electrics research center is not related to the Mystery Tower, but a lot of icing on the cake.

----------


## dcsooner

Thank you Mr. Bellaboo

----------


## Bellaboo

> Thank you Mr. Bellaboo


You're welcome, I really think we'll find out all the details on this MLP in June. It seems the folks in the know are pretty confident it'll happen, but then again, if N. Korea starts shooting nukes..... who knows.

----------


## OKCRT

> You're welcome, I really think we'll find out all the details on this MLP in June. It seems the folks in the know are pretty confident it'll happen, but then again, if N. Korea starts shooting nukes..... who knows.


I want the new tower info. by the end of this month or else!

----------


## TulsaOkie

Just another long time spectator and fan of anything that helps our state of Oklahoma in general here. 

I, just like all of you, have been long anticipating another announcement ever since the rumors began flying. Although, at this point, my optimism has fallen. There's really nothing we can do but shut up and wait at this point.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> You're welcome, I really think we'll find out all the details on this MLP in June. It seems the folks in the know are pretty confident it'll happen, but then again, if N. Korea starts shooting nukes..... who knows.


North Korea nukes can only make it to the west coast.  I'd be more concerned with foreign or domestic terrorism with a dirty bomb (biological or nuclear being detonated deep within the US borders).  I think fallout from the west coast would highly dissipate as it makes its way east.  To be discovered, though...

----------


## dankrutka

> North Korea nukes can only make it to the west coast.  I'd be more concerned with foreign or domestic terrorism with a dirty bomb (biological or nuclear being detonated deep within the US borders).  I think fallout from the west coast would highly dissipate as it makes its way east.  To be discovered, though...


I don't think the previous poster was seriously worried about North Korea nukes in relation to a possible tower project.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I don't think the previous poster was seriously worried about North Korea nukes in relation to a possible tower project.


Correct, I'd be more concerned over some kind of bank failure financial crisis than N. Korea, or even the bottom falling out of energy prices for that matter.

----------


## jedicurt

> North Korea nukes can only make it to the west coast.  I'd be more concerned with foreign or domestic terrorism with a dirty bomb (biological or nuclear being detonated deep within the US borders).  I think fallout from the west coast would highly dissipate as it makes its way east.  To be discovered, though...


there is also a lot of belief that the DPRK doesn't even have any missiles that could reach Hawaii, let alone the west coast

----------


## Praedura

Very cool animation of the proposed tower in Midland:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> there is also a lot of belief that the DPRK doesn't even have any missiles that could reach Hawaii, let alone the west coast


That's fine by me  :Smile:

----------


## CaptDave

Nice looking development - I like the exoskeleton and multi floor atrium like levels a lot. It sure would look nice at Stage Center.....

----------


## metro

Yeah I hope our next tower is exoskeleton style architecture, I love this one, the NYT and others like it.

----------


## OklahomaNick

It's interesting to me that a city of 111,000 (270,000 MSA) residents is building a 53 story SPEC building 870 feet tall.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> It's interesting to me that a city of 111,000 (270,000 MSA) residents is building a 53 story SPEC building 870 feet tall.


They have a lot of large energy companies moving their operations (not headquarters) there because that is where they are working.  I met with the Midland Texas Chamber of Commerce in January and they told me that Shell is opening a pretty good sized operation there.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Friday Night Lights (the movie/television show on NBC) was/is based out of the Midland/Odessa area.  Tell us so how many OKC based shows are on TV...  All I say is build the crap and let us enjoy a laugh at M/O and how off kilter their skyline is compared to OKC.  At least we can fill the gap.  They'll have to add 7 towers to fill their gap, where we'll need only 1 or 2.  For the theory of future headquarters building and the productivity of new digs being built since the recession, I'll take odds on OKC filling the gap any day over M/O, lol...

----------


## hoya

> Friday Night Lights (the movie/television show on NBC) was/is based out of the Midland/Odessa area.  Tell us so how many OKC based shows are on TV...


Saving Grace (TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I didn't watch it, but I don't watch Friday Night Lights either.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Yeah, I don't have cable so I forgot about that one...lol.

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## kevinpate

Been to Midland. Been to Odessa. Would take quite a bit to ever get me to return. Luck to the building folks all the same.

----------


## OKCRT

That thing really looks out of place there. They need to stop right now and think about building that in OKC. Seriously,who wants to live in Midland Tx? Most people there are looking for a way out.

----------


## coov23

> Very cool animation of the proposed tower in Midland:


Nice song. 'The Killers' want their song back.

----------


## HOT ROD

I think we can show class and be happy for other cities who are getting skyscrapers. OKC will get more and more because it is bigger and more important than Midland, so why be jealous of them? 

Large skyscrapers could very well be the trend going forward, and if so that speaks volumes for OKC's skyline ambitions. ....

----------


## bchris02

> That thing really looks out of place there. They need to stop right now and think about building that in OKC. Seriously,who wants to live in Midland Tx? Most people there are looking for a way out.


Having lived in many different cities, a lot of people from elsewhere say the same thing about OKC.  Many of them _were_ saying that back when the Devon Tower was announced and will say it again when the new tower is announced.

Midland is a large town that has always had an impressive skyline for its size.  Think about it, Midland is a peer to Amarillo or Fort Smith, yet its skyline would have you believe its much more important than that.

----------


## Rover

It IS much more important than Amarillo or Ft. smith.  It is about the size of Lawton but has wealth and influence WAY beyond its size.  It actually is a pretty nice city.  Odessa, not so much.

----------


## Just the facts

> I think we can show class and be happy for other cities who are getting skyscrapers. OKC will get more and more because it is bigger and more important than Midland, so why be jealous of them? 
> 
> Large skyscrapers could very well be the trend going forward, and if so that speaks volumes for OKC's skyline ambitions. ....


For me personally, I have nothing agant the city of Midland or its people.  My comments are based 100% of the design of the proposal.  I don't care where it is built, bad urban design is still bad urban design.  This project claims to be an effort to revitalize downtown Midland.  It won't and most likely will make it worse with large setbacks, keeps a super block, 2,000 cars added to the streets around it, enough office space to put the rest of the downtown property owners out of business, out of scale with the buildings around it, etc...

On the plus side, what it is replacing is just as bad.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I wonder what the chances would be that OKC offering them incentives or something to try and lure them here. . .

----------


## Rover

Oil companies flock there because it is the heart of the Permian Basin reserves.  Incentives aren't why they move there, or away.  Profit is their incentive.

----------


## Bellaboo

crickets......  which could be good.

----------


## Praedura

> crickets......  which could be good.


What's this? A new clue?

Aha! Cricket Wireless is building a new tower in downtown OKC!!!!

...just kidding...

----------


## DAE

I am as excited about the prospect of a large new tower at the SG cite as anyone, but I heard some distressing news today. Today Beffort was speaking to the current Leadership OKC class and was asked about the "mystery tower."  He said there were discussions concrning that site, but the deal did not develop.  He believes a new office building (not tower) will be built somewhere downtown over the next few years, but there are no specific plans at the moment.  This is second hand information from a person who attended the discussion today, so please don't shoot the messenger.  Beffort may not be in the know, or was being intentionally effasive, but his comments (if accurately reported to me) don't seem to match up with what has been previously written about the subject.  I hope my friend and/or Beffort are wrong.

----------


## Bunty

> Been to Midland. Been to Odessa. Would take quite a bit to ever get me to return. Luck to the building folks all the same.


Yeah, in case they need it.  Downtown Midland looks pretty substantial for a city its size.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yeah, in case they need it.  Downtown Midland looks pretty substantial for a city its size.


Yes, complete with a herd of cattle.

----------


## Just the facts

> Yeah, in case they need it.  Downtown Midland looks pretty substantial for a city its size.


That is how cities should be settled - with well defined centers and edges.  They should be a destination you arrive at, not something you slowly ease into over miles and miles.  Well defined edges and centers is what seperates US cities from the pretty much the rest of the world.   It reminds me of this picture of Chartres, FR.

----------


## lasomeday

> Very cool animation of the proposed tower in Midland:


Wow, if Midland can do it?  Why can't we build a mixed use tower even taller?  They may have the Permian Oil, but we have Mississippian and other plays nearby that are emerging.  Maybe it could be on top of the convention center hotel.  Have the offices like theirs on top. That could be the extra $50 million they need to build the convention center hotel. They could have the first 20 or 30 floors be convention  center hotel 10-15 floors of residential and then 20-30 floors of office space. Then restaurants/bars/pool/workout facilities on the first floor. Their 53 story tower is quoted at being $350 Million.

----------


## CaptDave

I hope our convention center hotel is a similar concept to the Ft Worth Omni - it has several floor of condos on top of the hotel. Combining the two could make both easier to attain - it should reduce the cost and risk for the condos and possibly reduce overall cost for the CC hotel. It might be a way to get our first residential high rise in OKC.....

----------


## adaniel

> Wow, if Midland can do it?  Why can't we build a mixed use tower even taller?  They may have the Permian Oil, but we have Mississippian and other plays nearby that are emerging.  Maybe it could be on top of the convention center hotel.  Have the offices like theirs on top. That could be the extra $50 million they need to build the convention center hotel. They could have the first 20 or 30 floors be convention  center hotel 10-15 floors of residential and then 20-30 floors of office space. Then restaurants/bars/pool/workout facilities on the first floor. Their 53 story tower is quoted at being $350 Million.


This thing is not getting built...sorry to burst everyone's bubble. I was in Midland just last year and there are large office buildings that are completely abandoned. It could get built in a smaller form, but dumping 1 million square feet of spec office space on a city the size of Norman? Not gonna happen. At least with the Devon Tower, a company wrote a check for it and had a concrete plan to use the all the space. Last I've heard they've only gotten about 20 percent of space with this accounted for, and negotiations were "ongoing" (a/k/a no leases have been signed). 

Frankly, as someone who works in the oil and gas industry, stuff like this scares me. Once you start hitting the level of irrational exuberance like this, it usually means things are peaking.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> This thing is not getting built...sorry to burst everyone's bubble. I was in Midland just last year and there are large office buildings that are completely abandoned. It could get built in a smaller form, but dumping 1 million square feet of spec office space on a city the size of Norman? Not gonna happen. At least with the Devon Tower, a company wrote a check for it and had a concrete plan to use the all the space. Last I've heard they've only gotten about 20 percent of space with this accounted for, and negotiations were "ongoing" (a/k/a no leases have been signed). 
> 
> Frankly, as someone who works in the oil and gas industry, stuff like this scares me. Once you start hitting the level of irrational exuberance like this, it usually means things are peaking.


I definitely don't think it's peaking right now, at least I hope not because it's a really crappy peak. Things natural gas wise peaked in 2007 - 2008, unfortunately we were a little too good at finding it. The energy industry is cyclical though and I would expect things to get better as the natural gas market grows. I think the biggest danger to the industry is a global oil price crash due to economic issues in China and/or India. Many of the wells they're drilling around Midland would be uneconomic if the price of oil dropped below about $50 per bbl and only moderately economic between $60 and $80 per bbl. As long as the price of oil stays above $80 per bbl, the industry will be in decent shape. If the price of natural gas comes up, the industry will be in great shape. 

As far as this building goes, I think it is a little ridiculous. At least the devon tower has a few 400- 500 foot buildings accompanying it in the skyline. The current tallest in Midland is around 330' tall and this building as currently proposed would be taller than Devon. Spliting in half would probably be a better idea if they are deadset on building something. Having said that, if they really want to build it, more power to them. Though the Devon Tower probably made more sense in OKC due to our population size and the fact that a single tenant was building it, people were saying some of the same things about it that are now being said about Midland's tower proposal. 

Do you know if the buildings that are empty are class C space or something? I had heard that the empty building(s) in downtown midland were in a situation similar to First National here. I've also heard from contractors doing work for me down there that it is extremely difficult to find office and living space right now. Given that, I would assume something having to do with the condition of that building is preventing it from being redeveloped. Look at downtown OKC, given the demand for office space and downtown living, it makes no sense that First National hasn't been redeveloped, but a bad owner and the estimated cost to renovate it are the major roadblocks preventing it from happening.

----------


## ou48A

> Wow, if Midland can do it?  Why can't we build a mixed use tower even taller?  They may have the Permian Oil, but we have Mississippian and other plays nearby that are emerging.


The west Texas oil plays and their prospects make our combined prospects in Oklahoma look tiny.
I have been to Midland many times… The area oil prospects have changed a lot just in the past few months. They will have a lot more oil money that will last for many years. There oil prospect are so great that it’s hard for me to fully comprehend.

----------


## ou48A

> *This thing is not getting built*...sorry to burst everyone's bubble. I was in Midland just last year and there are large office buildings that are completely abandoned. It could get built in a smaller form, but dumping 1 million square feet of spec office space on a city the size of Norman? Not gonna happen. At least with the Devon Tower, a company wrote a check for it and had a concrete plan to use the all the space. Last I've heard they've only gotten about 20 percent of space with this accounted for, and negotiations were "ongoing" (a/k/a no leases have been signed). 
> 
> Frankly, as someone who works in the oil and gas industry, stuff like this scares me. Once you start hitting the level of irrational exuberance like this, it usually means things are peaking.



I sure would not bet against this being built. 

There are a lot of Oklahoma’s who have never understood west Texans, what they have and what they think.
Midland TX is a very affluent city….where a flashy living life style is still very common.
Midland TX has been in the top 10 wealthiest places in the USA by per capita income several times and in fact was ranked #1 at one time. Even if oil prices stay low for a period of time there is so much new and old oil in the entire area that many fortunes will be made and they will be able to survive until prices recover. 
Ever see the movie Giant? That’s sort of what’s going on now, but bigger.

I was told just yesterday that over 200,000 new homes were planned or under construction in that area of west Texas.

----------


## adaniel

> Do you know if the buildings that are empty are class C space or something? I had heard that the empty building(s) in downtown midland were in a situation similar to First National here. I've also heard from contractors doing work for me down there that it is extremely difficult to find office and living space right now. Given that, I would assume something having to do with the condition of that building is preventing it from being redeveloped. Look at downtown OKC, given the demand for office space and downtown living, it makes no sense that First National hasn't been redeveloped, but a bad owner and the estimated cost to renovate it are the major roadblocks preventing it from happening.


Yes, they are largely unoccupied due to being in unusable condition i.e. First National Center. They are largely unusable due to hasty improvements that were made during the last boom in the 70's and now not practical for today's office needs. And while yes, office space is very tight, the type of rents that can be demanded in that market that size simply make remodeling stuff like this (or building an overly elaborate, massive office building) uneconomical. IIRC there are quite a few office parks on the NW side of Midland that seem to be rapidly expanding. 




> I sure would not bet against this being built. 
> 
> There are a lot of Oklahomas who have never understood west Texans, what they have and what they think.
> Midland TX is a very affluent city.where a flashy living life style is still very common.
> Midland TX has been in the top 10 wealthiest places in the USA by per capita income several times and in fact was ranked #1 at one time. Even if oil prices stay low for a period of time there is so much new and old oil in the entire area that many fortunes will be made and they will be able to survive until prices recover. 
> Ever see the movie Giant? Thats sort of whats going on now, but bigger.
> 
> I was told just yesterday that over 200,000 new homes were planned or under construction in that area of west Texas.


OU48, my dad was in the air force and my family did a 6 year "tour" of West Texas bases, so yes, I am quite aware of the brand of arrogance that dominates that area. Don't get me wrong, lots of nice people out there, but maybe a bit too prideful for their own good. 

I actually saw where Midland Odessa has a very high per capita income. However, when looking at the most recent median household income list, Midland County was nowhere near the top 100. I don't want to throw cold water on them, but household income is a far better measure of what is going into people's pocket, whereas per capita income measures only general economic output. The fact that there is such a discrepancy between the 2 confirms my observations. There's lots of oil gushing out of that place, and plenty of high paid field workers, roustabouts, etc. but the white collar workers who are pulling down the big bucks are all probably still in Houston, OKC, Denver, etc. Which is the main reason I think they're going to have big problems filling this tower up. I mean, do you see companies relocating their white collar workers en masse to North Dakota? Quality of life and employee retention still do matter nowadays. I'm glad the leaders in OKC are starting to realize this. 

I know people like to say, "its different this time," but the old rules still apply. For a place to have true prosperity, you need F500/F1000 headquarters, not just field offices, diversified employment base, mix of white collar and blue collar, educational opportunities, etc. No doubt you can make a lot of money NOW in Midland, but this stuff is fleeting. If you think they are building 200K homes out that way, I've got some pets.com stock and real estate in Vegas to sell you.

----------


## ou48A

> OU48, my dad was in the air force and my family did a 6 year "tour" of West Texas bases, so yes, I am quite aware of the brand of arrogance that dominates that area. Don't get me wrong, lots of nice people out there, but maybe a bit too prideful for their own good. 
> 
> I actually saw where Midland Odessa has a very high per capita income. However, when looking at the most recent median household income list, Midland County was nowhere near the top 100. I don't want to throw cold water on them, but household income is a far better measure of what is going into people's pocket, whereas per capita income measures only general economic output. The fact that there is such a discrepancy between the 2 confirms my observations. There's lots of oil gushing out of that place, and plenty of high paid field workers, roustabouts, etc. but the white collar workers who are pulling down the big bucks are all probably still in Houston, OKC, Denver, etc. Which is the main reason I think they're going to have big problems filling this tower up. I mean, do you see companies relocating their white collar workers en masse to North Dakota? Quality of life and employee retention still do matter nowadays. I'm glad the leaders in OKC are starting to realize this. 
> 
> I know people like to say, "its different this time," but the old rules still apply. For a place to have true prosperity, you need F500/F1000 headquarters, not just field offices, diversified employment base, mix of white collar and blue collar, educational opportunities, etc. No doubt you can make a lot of money NOW in Midland, but this stuff is fleeting. If you think they are building 200K homes out that way, I've got some pets.com stock and real estate in Vegas to sell you.


Fair enough.
However the Midland Odessa still has a good number of regional offices of all sizes of oil companies. There are a number of locally owned very prosperous O&G companies that any community would love to have. If I understand this new tower correctly besides being office space, it’s going to have apartments designed to attract young professionals that the area desperately needs. I’m sure you remember the surrounding land is butt ugly. They need to do something to set them self’s apart.
I would completely agree that there are lots of nice people but the brand of Texas arrogance is probably stronger in that part of Texas than anywhere else. My wife was born in Midland. I have frequently said .., you can take the Texans out of Texas but you can’t take the Texas out of the Texan. I find this to be the most true with west Texans.

----------


## progressiveboy

I personally would not have any desire to live in Midland Odessa. West Texas including Lubbock and Amarillo, they can have it. It is too flat, treeless and gritty for my taste. Very blue collar in that area so I do not get the arrogance part for that area??? OKC is much more likely to get another skyscraper before Midland.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I am as excited about the prospect of a large new tower at the SG cite as anyone, but I heard some distressing news today. Today Beffort was speaking to the current Leadership OKC class and was asked about the "mystery tower."  He said there were discussions concrning that site, but the deal did not develop.  He believes a new office building (not tower) will be built somewhere downtown over the next few years, but there are no specific plans at the moment.  This is second hand information from a person who attended the discussion today, so please don't shoot the messenger.  Beffort may not be in the know, or was being intentionally effasive, but his comments (if accurately reported to me) don't seem to match up with what has been previously written about the subject.  I hope my friend and/or Beffort are wrong.


Has no one heard anything about this or if this is true?

----------


## HangryHippo

This would kinda match up with what was in the okc.biz article where Beffort said they were looking at plans but nothing firm. I think this dream is dead.

----------


## SharkSandwich

> This would kinda match up with what was in the okc.biz article where Beffort said they were looking at plans but nothing firm. I think this dream is dead.


This is how I'm starting to feel about all of this....

----------


## dankrutka

Just like everyone earlier in this thread was jumping to conclusions that a tower (or 4) would definitely be built, I wouldn't jump to conclusions that one won't be built now. I don't have any inside information, but people are way too quick to run with one tidbit of information (And haven't we already learned that Beffort may not know everything?). Once Steve or Pete are confident there's nothing in the works then I'll be convinced. There seemed to be more evidence than just Beffort's statements...

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Just like everyone earlier in this thread was jumping to conclusions that a tower (or 4) would definitely be built, I wouldn't jump to conclusions that one won't be built now. I don't have any inside information, but people are way too quick to run with one tidbit of information (And haven't we already learned that Beffort may not know everything?). Once Steve or Pete are confident there's nothing in the works then I'll be convinced. There seemed to be more evidence than just Beffort's statements...


This is what I'm gonna amount it to. Until Steve or Pete or someone who is in the know says the tower is no longer in the works, then I'll close this chapter of Oklahoma City's development.

----------


## Steve

> This would kinda match up with what was in the okc.biz article where Beffort said they were looking at plans but nothing firm. I think this dream is dead.


Not dead.

----------


## HangryHippo

Dying?

----------


## Steve

Not dying.

----------


## dankrutka

> Not dying.

----------


## Praedura

Imaginary next post from OnlyOne:

Sick?

Imaginary next post from Steve:

Not sick.


Just thought I'd play along.
 :Smile:

----------


## kevinpate

Sometimes it's almost like an episode of Monday Mornings around here.
 :Wink:

----------


## Steve

Pete, can you please share with these folks how real world, big time real estate transactions take place, and why sometimes involved parties might want to downplay whether a deal is in play? I've got a book manuscript to get finished!

----------


## lasomeday

> Pete, can you please share with these folks how real world, big time real estate transactions take place, and why sometimes involved parties might want to downplay whether a deal is in play? I've got a book manuscript to get finished!


With those words Steve..... back to the odds.


These are Mystery Tower odds....not necessarily Stage Center site.....and more than one tower of course!

OG&E 50% 
OG&E/Centerpoint 30%
Devon MLP 25%
Some random company 25%
Phillips 66 10%
Continental 10%
Mixed use tower 10%

----------


## DoctorTaco

> With those words Steve..... back to the odds.
> 
> 
> These are Mystery Tower odds....not necessarily Stage Center site.....and more than one tower of course!
> 
> OG&E 50% 
> OG&E/Centerpoint 30%
> Devon MLP 25%
> Some random company 25%
> ...


FWIW, I heard from a guy who heard from a guy, etc., that John Richels is telling concerned employees that if Devon sets up an MLP, it would be a book-keeping exercise only, and that no one involved in the day-to-day would be able to tell the difference, i.e. Devon MLP =/= new tower.

----------


## lasomeday

> FWIW, I heard from a guy who heard from a guy, etc., that John Richels is telling concerned employees that if Devon sets up an MLP, it would be a book-keeping exercise only, and that no one involved in the day-to-day would be able to tell the difference, i.e. Devon MLP =/= new tower.


DT,  I talked to JR and the Devon MLP = more money for Devon = more people = new tower.....down the road, but if an acquisition happens it would also mean new tower.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I heard from a guy, who heard from a guy, who heard from his cousin's doctor's mother-in-law's, son's. . .  kid's friend's dad, that the People's Bank of China, was planning on building a 123 story building high-rise. The people on the second floor from the top, will keep watch on Dallas to find out why they have so many developments going on and the top floor will be dedicated to taking pictures of Midland new tower and how out of place it looks, while here in OKC we have a 123 story tower surrounded by 5 other 35-50 story buildings.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Real talk though, I still think we're getting a tower, if not more than one. From what I've read about Steve, he seems to be really "in the know" and wouldn't go out on a limb and said what he's already said unless he was confident something was in the works.

----------


## ljbab728

> I heard from a guy, who heard from a guy, who heard from his cousin's doctor's mother-in-law's, son's. . .  kid's friend's dad, that the People's Bank of China, was planning on building a 123 story building high-rise. The people on the second floor from the top, will keep watch on Dallas to find out why they have so many developments going on and the top floor will be dedicated to taking pictures of Midland new tower and how out of place it looks, while here in OKC we have a 123 story tower surrounded by 5 other 35-50 story buildings.


I know you're joking but that's not a huge leap from Korean Airlines building this in LA.  

Downtown Los Angeles to get tallest skyscraper in the West - The Reporter

----------


## lasomeday

> I know you're joking but that's not a huge leap from Korean Airlines building this in LA.  
> 
> Downtown Los Angeles to get tallest skyscraper in the West - The Reporter


Wow, first Houston, then Midland, and now LA......  Looks like everyone is getting one this year.  Hopefully Santa will bring us one too!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I know you're joking but that's not a huge leap from Korean Airlines building this in LA.  
> 
> Downtown Los Angeles to get tallest skyscraper in the West - The Reporter


That is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...167291&page=39

Wilshire Grand Tower, AC Martin, world architecture news, architecture jobs



http://www.acmartin.com

----------


## Mississippi Blues

That tower in LA has been known about for awhile. Not the specifics, but how tall it would be.

----------


## Spartan

> That is how cities should be settled - with well defined centers and edges.  They should be a destination you arrive at, not something you slowly ease into over miles and miles.  Well defined edges and centers is what seperates US cities from the pretty much the rest of the world.   It reminds me of this picture of Chartres, FR.


I don't think Midland could be any further from France nor is it an urban model. Just to get that off my chest.

----------


## Just the facts

> I don't think Midland could be any further from France nor is it an urban model. Just to get that off my chest.


Then I suggest you read up on urban edges and centers (Charter for New Urbanism Principles 1 and 4), or better yet, just go look at the very defined edges of Midland, TX and Chartes, FR on Google Earth and compare it to the blurred urban boundary surrounding most of OKC.  You see a little sprawl on the south side of Midland but other than that - it is pretty darn dense, especially for Texas (about 1,600 people per sq mile).

Charter of the New Urbanism | Congress for the New Urbanism

----------


## Rover

> I don't think Midland could be any further from France nor is it an urban model. Just to get that off my chest.


I doubt JTF has been to either Midland or France.

----------


## Just the facts

Spartan should know urban design at the regional level a little better - he has a college degree in a related field.  Rover, I'm not surprised you don't know what I am talking about (although I suspect you are well aware I was not comparing Midland, TX and Chartes, FR culturally, surrounding land use, natural beauty, or historically).

Urbanism occurs on 3 basic levels: the region, the neighborhood, and the block.  My only point is that both places have well defined center and edges vs. places like OKC whose built environment slowly transitions from rural to high density over miles.  If I asked 10 people to start at Reno and Robinson and walk east until they perceived they were out of an urban areas I would get 10 different answers (and they would be miles apart).  If I asked the same 10 people to go to Midland and do the same thing all 10 answers would most likely be the exact same spot.

----------


## hoya

I don't always agree with everything JTF says, but he's got a real point here.  I live out in MWC, and as I was driving in to work today, I paid attention to all the empty land.  I went down NE 10th from Air Depot, and on one side of the street there's nothing but fields for well over a mile.  On the other side of the street, there's nothing but fields for a half mile.  There are a lot of places like that in the metro, large chunks of undeveloped or sparsely developed land.  You'll think you're starting to reach the country, and then you come across a big shopping center.

This is _not_ the type of development we should be supporting.  Now there's nothing magical about going from farmland to skyscraper in 2.5 miles, but denser development is more economical.  The "Bridge to Nowhere" in Alaska was supposed to cost $400 million to reach an island of 50 people.  But how many extra miles of road are we maintaining to reach a very spread out population?

----------


## Rover

> Spartan should know urban design at the regional level a little better - he has a college degree in a related field.  Rover, I'm not surprised you don't know what I am talking about (although I suspect you are well aware I was not comparing Midland, TX and Chartes, FR culturally, surrounding land use, natural beauty, or historically).
> 
> Urbanism occurs on 3 basic levels: the region, the neighborhood, and the block.  My only point is that both places have well defined center and edges vs. places like OKC whose built environment slowly transitions from rural to high density over miles.  If I asked 10 people to start at Reno and Robinson and walk east until they perceived they were out of an urban areas I would get 10 different answers (and they would be miles apart).  If I asked the same 10 people to go to Midland and do the same thing all 10 answers would most likely be the exact same spot.


I know what you are saying, but I have spent time in Midland and it isn't as clear as the medieval cities of France.  Midland has a definite business center devoid of mixed uses and is surrounded by suburban style neighborhoods.  Because of the major oil companies it has taller buildings downtown than would normally be found in a small city of its size.  And, most of the people work for the oil companies downtown so there is less of a distributed work force.  Odessa is more of their "suburb" in that those jobs reside there.   It goes against your mantra of a diversified urban area.  Its population does not look like the those towns in France nor does its development.  I have spent a lot of time in both and find little in common.  If you had spent time in both you would know what I am talking about.

----------


## traxx

> I don't always agree with everything JTF says, but he's got a real point here.


Wait...JTF's a dude?

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Wait...JTF's a dude?


JTF's been a dude ever since I started lurking on here, which he was "Kerry" back then before he created a new account.

----------


## G.Walker

Yea, JTF is a real cool guy, he knows what he is talking about when it comes to urbanism discussions.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Yea, JTF is a real cool guy, he knows what he is talking about when it comes to urbanism discussions.


Yes he does.

----------


## Duane821

This is my first ever post here on OKCTALK. I'm a big fan of this site and have been following it over the past three years. I heard something interesting the other today from my grandma who lives in The Montgomery in downtown OKC regarding the "Mystery Tower." She told me that one of the managers here told her that Devon is the company who is building a new tower on the Stage Center site. I got excited when she told me this thinking Devon had made an announcement but when I searched on Internet and here at OKCTALK, I found nothing. Have any of you heard anything about this? I just thought it was interesting and wanted to share. This has been driving me crazy! Maybe the manager/owner here at The Montgomery knows something that we haven't heard yet.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> This is my first ever post here on OKCTALK. I'm a big fan of this site and have been following it over the past three years. I heard something interesting the other today from my grandma who lives in The Montgomery in downtown OKC regarding the "Mystery Tower." She told me that one of the managers here told her that Devon is the company who is building a new tower on the Stage Center site. I got excited when she told me this thinking Devon had made an announcement but when I searched on Internet and here at OKCTALK, I found nothing. Have any of you heard anything about this? I just thought it was interesting and wanted to share. This has been driving me crazy! Maybe the manager/owner here at The Montgomery knows something that we haven't heard yet.


Dick Tannenbaum owns the Montgomery.  He certainly runs in those circles and could possibly know something.  I doubt that he would let it out though.

----------


## kevinpate

never underestimate the capabilities or curiosity of a Nana. 

 :Wink:

----------


## LakeEffect

> never underestimate the capabilities or curiosity of a Nana.


And Dick is a talker. Get him going and he won't shut up.  :Smile:

----------


## Bellaboo

The* rumor* has always been that Devon would build on the Preftakes block, which is just North of the Stage Center.......

We'll know eventually.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> And Dick is a talker. Get him going and he won't shut up.


Yes, on second thought I guess you are right.  He definately says what is on his mind.

----------


## Duane821

I talked with her more about it today and she told me that the manager told her that the new tower is going to be 40 stories. I thought that was strange as well because she gave me an exact story count so obviously this manager heard that as well from somebody else...maybe Dick Tannenbaum? I don't know. I'm assuming that Dick and the manager know each other and possibly could have had a discussion about this. It's just strange because why else would this manager be going around randomly telling residents who is building on the Stage Center site and even throwing exact story counts out there. Interesting. I'll talk with her more about it and I'll even talk to the manager myself next time I go down there for a visit.

----------


## traxx

> JTF's been a dude ever since I started lurking on here, which he was "Kerry" back then before he created a new account.


I remember Kerry from when I used to come here.

----------


## Spartan

> Spartan should know urban design at the regional level a little better - he has a college degree in a related field.  Rover, I'm not surprised you don't know what I am talking about (although I suspect you are well aware I was not comparing Midland, TX and Chartes, FR culturally, surrounding land use, natural beauty, or historically).
> 
> Urbanism occurs on 3 basic levels: the region, the neighborhood, and the block.  My only point is that both places have well defined center and edges vs. places like OKC whose built environment slowly transitions from rural to high density over miles.  If I asked 10 people to start at Reno and Robinson and walk east until they perceived they were out of an urban areas I would get 10 different answers (and they would be miles apart).  If I asked the same 10 people to go to Midland and do the same thing all 10 answers would most likely be the exact same spot.


Well I think walking east they'd run into 235. But the keys that using Midland as an example fails to acknowledge are mixed uses and the new buzzword of place-making (however sense of place is an older, more established buzzword). Those are things you can't get by looking at stats or google street view. Midland doesn't even seem very pleasant from street view...

Besides, I feel obligated to scoff at anything west of OKC not named Denver.

----------


## Just the facts

> Well I think walking east they'd run into 235. But the keys that using Midland as an example fails to acknowledge are mixed uses and the new buzzword of place-making (however sense of place is an older, more established buzzword). Those are things you can't get by looking at stats or google street view. Midland doesn't even seem very pleasant from street view...
> 
> Besides, I feel obligated to scoff at anything west of OKC not named Denver.


That is why I specifically referred to the well-defined edge and center of Midland, and nothing else.  Catch22 posted some pictures in the Future Highway or Interstate thread that illustrates the point quite well.  It is kind of weird how all of these different threads on multiple subjects are also all interconnected (it is like a daytime soap).

----------


## ljbab728

> Besides, I feel obligated to scoff at anything west of OKC not named Denver.


Spartan, surely you don't have anything against San Francisco.   :Frown:

----------


## Bellaboo

From todays chat -

Steve 'still not worried'.

----------


## Spartan

Good, bc I was starting to.




> That is why I specifically referred to the well-defined edge and center of Midland, and nothing else.  Catch22 posted some pictures in the Future Highway or Interstate thread that illustrates the point quite well.  It is kind of weird how all of these different threads on multiple subjects are also all interconnected (it is like a daytime soap).


Ah, poignant comparison.

----------


## bchris02

Steve said he still thinks there will be a Mystery tower, a CC hotel tower, and a high-rise apartment tower of some sort. Beyond that its all up in the air due to the situation at Sandridge.

----------


## Teo9969

> Steve said he still thinks there will be a Mystery tower, a CC hotel tower, *and a high-rise apartment tower of some sort.* Beyond that its all up in the air due to the situation at Sandridge.


uhhh, that's new to this thread...

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> uhhh, that's new to this thread...


Yep. Definitely the first I've heard of that & I'm usually all over the downtown stuff. Unless he is referring to a project already known about & he just used a new term for it.

----------


## BoulderSooner

He said CBD housing not "high rise apt tower"

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> He said CBD housing not "high rise apt tower"


He did say CBD housing, not high-rise apt's. I went through & read the transcript earlier. I still hope downtown OKC gets a high-rise apt building before its all said & done.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Out of curiosity, define "High-rise Residential" for me in OKC terms.


Well, in my fair & honest opinion, one needs not look any further than 333 NW 5th Street -- The Regency.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> That's have I have in mind too.  Was curious what others thought.  Wasn't sure if that was borderline mid-rise.


I suppose it depends on the person, but in OKC terms I would call it a high-rise.

----------


## Just the facts

> He did say CBD housing, not high-rise apt's. I went through & read the transcript earlier. I still hope downtown OKC gets a high-rise apt building before its all said & done.


But didn't he say it in the context of tower developement?  I'm pretty sure he was talking about Rick Dowell's oft mentioned but never verfied midrise.

----------


## Just the facts

> That's have I have in mind too.  Was curious what others thought.  Wasn't sure if that was borderline mid-rise.


For me I would say it depends on its relationship to the immediate surrounding urban fabric.  Something the might be a mid-rise in Deep Deuce would only be a low rise downtown and 20 story downtown mid-rise would be a high-rise in Bricktown.

----------


## bchris02

> Well, in my fair & honest opinion, one needs not look any further than 333 NW 5th Street -- The Regency.


That is probably about the scale that is needed.  It would be really nice to get one (or more) of these towers in OKC.  Other cities, some much smaller than OKC were getting them like crazy in the 2000s but OKC got left out of that boom.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> But didn't he say it in the context of tower developement?  I'm pretty sure he was talking about Rick Dowell's oft mentioned but never verfied midrise.


He may have been. Rick Dowell was mentioned today so his "project" may be the "mystery residential project". I don't feel like going back & reading it right now, otherwise I would to verify it.

----------


## Rover

> For me I would say it depends on its relationship to the immediate surrounding urban fabric.  Something the might be a mid-rise in Deep Deuce would only be a low rise downtown and 20 story downtown mid-rise would be a high-rise in Bricktown.


I would pretty much agree that context is always important.  Generally though, 1-4 Stick built is a low rise.  4-10 or 12 floors generally are referred to as mid-rise, and over 10-12 is high rise.  With taller floor to floor heights as is more common these days, high rise starts more at the 10 floor level rather than 12 it used to be.

----------


## BoulderSooner

Dowel residential tower in not in the CBD

----------


## Spartan

It is if he uses the former office tower he's renovating.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Totally off topic but...

----------


## skanaly

Woah! (The one on the left) Nuh Uh....

----------


## Just the facts

This will increase your pulse rate.

----------


## Spartan

> Totally off topic but...


What exactly is the topic? Lol

----------


## UnFrSaKn



----------


## OKCNDN

> Pete, *can you please share with these folks how real world, big time real estate transactions take place*, and why sometimes involved parties might want to downplay whether a deal is in play? I've got a book manuscript to get finished!


OK, I have $600 million to spend for a new high-rise, let's negotiate.



 :Stick Out Tongue:  :Cool:

----------


## OKVision

Steve, is one of the holdups for the tower announcement (especially an out of state company) the state income tax rate going below 5%?  This thread has been going for almost 15 months.  I wondered last year if that was an issue when the state legislature would not cut the income tax rate to below 5 percent.  If this is one of the issues, then the leadership announced today that agreements have been reached for a tax cut deal, workers compensation reform, and long term infrastructure planning.  The agreement is to lower the top income tax rate from 5.25 percent to 5.0 percent on January 1, 2015 and to lower the top income tax rate from 5.0 percent to 4.85 percent on January 1, 2016.   The bill will also reserve $60 million in FY 2014 and an additional $60 million in FY 2015 for Capitol repars.

PS I have been a member for 3 and a half years, but this is my first post.  Pete, thank you, thank you, thank you a million times over for this forum.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> Steve, is one of the holdups for the tower announcement (especially an out of state company) the state income tax rate going below 5%?  This thread has been going for almost 15 months.  I wondered last year if that was an issue when the state legislature would not cut the income tax rate to below 5 percent.  If this is one of the issues, then the leadership announced today that agreements have been reached for a tax cut deal, workers compensation reform, and long term infrastructure planning.  The agreement is to lower the top income tax rate from 5.25 percent to 5.0 percent on January 1, 2015 and to lower the top income tax rate from 5.0 percent to 4.85 percent on January 1, 2016.   The bill will also reserve $60 million in FY 2014 and an additional $60 million in FY 2015 for Capitol repars.
> 
> PS I have been a member for 3 and a half years, but this is my first post.  Pete, thank you, thank you, thank you a million times over for this forum.


I am not Steve (as far as either of us can tell), but I will say that cutting the state income tax by 0.25% will have little to no effect on business relocation. Corporations move sometimes because of large, _specific_ tax breaks tailored to them. Sometimes they move because of the quality of life and overall cost of living for their employees. Sometimes they move for industry-specific reasons. But despite all the bluster out of the state capital, a miniscule change in individual income tax is not going to make or break anything.

----------


## Steve

> Steve, is one of the holdups for the tower announcement (especially an out of state company) the state income tax rate going below 5%?  This thread has been going for almost 15 months.  I wondered last year if that was an issue when the state legislature would not cut the income tax rate to below 5 percent.  If this is one of the issues, then the leadership announced today that agreements have been reached for a tax cut deal, workers compensation reform, and long term infrastructure planning.  The agreement is to lower the top income tax rate from 5.25 percent to 5.0 percent on January 1, 2015 and to lower the top income tax rate from 5.0 percent to 4.85 percent on January 1, 2016.   The bill will also reserve $60 million in FY 2014 and an additional $60 million in FY 2015 for Capitol repars.
> 
> PS I have been a member for 3 and a half years, but this is my first post.  Pete, thank you, thank you, thank you a million times over for this forum.


No, to be honest, I've yet to see this mentioned as an issue in any economic development project I've ever tracked. It's quite the talking point for legislators and talk radio, however. To be honest, quality of life is a far bigger issue with those I've talked to over the years (you folks can chew on this for a bit and extrapolate what this all could mean in years to come)

----------


## OKCRT

> No, to be honest, I've yet to see this mentioned as an issue in any economic development project I've ever tracked. It's quite the talking point for legislators and talk radio, however. To be honest, quality of life is a far bigger issue with those I've talked to over the years (you folks can chew on this for a bit and extrapolate what this all could mean in years to come)



It means that OKC better get an NFL team.....Get er done!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

AquaDom

AquaDom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wonder if this would work in a highrise?

----------


## Thundercitizen

> It means that OKC better get an NFL team.....Get er done!


...and better weather...oops.

----------


## kevinpate

That's one big fish bath.  Thanks for sharing.

----------


## OKCRT

> ...and better weather...oops.


Might as well thrown in an ocean and a few mountains as well. 
But where is this mystery tower that Steve said would be announced in 30 days?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Might as well thrown in an ocean and a few mountains as well. 
> But where is this mystery tower that Steve said would be announced in 30 days?


Due to the complexity of the transactions with all parties involved, IIRC, he's postponed any annoucements until more concrete facts transpire. I'll suggest maybe we'll know more in June....?

----------


## Bellaboo

Spoke to a woman last night whose husband is a 27 year employee of Enogex in their corporate office. I asked her if he knew anything about the merger with CNP. She said it was pure speculation on his part, but due to the infrastructure and logistics of the facilities, that he felt the new HQ would be located here. Pure speculation on his part, but what was interesting is that they are supposed to have some kind of announcement about the merger in July.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> ...they are supposed to have some kind of announcement about the merger in July.


I'm suppose to go on vacation to Arizona last weekend of July...over/under on tower announcement before or after my vacation?  I'll say after...

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Rise of The Super Towers: The Next Big Thing In Luxury Housing - Forbes

----------


## HangryHippo

> Rise of The Super Towers: The Next Big Thing In Luxury Housing - Forbes


For whatever reason, I love how the Museum Tower in Dallas ended up looking.  I really wish we had something like that as a housing option for downtown OKC.  I'd move in a heartbeat.

----------


## Rover

Even Austin has a 50 story residential tower.

----------


## zookeeper

> For whatever reason, I love how the Museum Tower in Dallas ended up looking.  I really wish we had something like that as a housing option for downtown OKC.  I'd move in a heartbeat.


No kidding. That's a great building in a perfect location for art and theatre lovers. I love it.

----------


## bchris02

OKC pretty much missed the mid/high-rise housing boom in the mid-2000s.  Even Little Rock has decent sized residential towers constructed recently for its standards.  Nothing too extravagant, but more than has been constructed in OKC.  It would be nice if this city can get a residential tower or two before its all said and done.

Austin doesn't surprise me because it's pretty much America's favorite city right now.

----------


## zookeeper

> OKC pretty much missed the mid/high-rise housing boom in the mid-2000s.  Even Little Rock has decent sized residential towers constructed recently for its standards.  Nothing too extravagant, but more than has been constructed in OKC.  It would be nice if this city can get a residential tower or two before its all said and done.
> 
> Austin doesn't surprise me because it's pretty much America's favorite city right now.


I agree about Austin. It IS America's favorite city right now, until people visit and have to drive around town. Worst transportation infrastructure I've ever seen, but Austin was a town that really never planned on growing up to be a big city. Regardless, I love the place.

----------


## SharkSandwich

> I agree about Austin. It IS America's favorite city right now, until people visit and have to drive around town. Worst transportation infrastructure I've ever seen, but Austin was a town that really never planned on growing up to be a big city. Regardless, I love the place.


I was in Austin a few weeks ago.  Great place.  OKC could get there with some good urban planning and more high paying jobs.  However, the traffic was HORRIBLE!  It took me over an hour to crawl six miles into downtown southbound on I-35.  Traffic was even worse going north from downtown to Round Rock.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Even Austin has a 50 story residential tower.


Austin's population is around 2.3 million as well. But, I think OKC could support of 50 story res tower

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Austin's population is around 2.3 million as well. But, I think OKC could support of 50 story res tower


Excuse me, I was notified Austin's pop. was only at 1.7 and that is correct and I was wrong about that. Just fyi.

I still believe OKC could support a 50 story residential tower, I have absolutely no evidence to back that up and as any logical person, if I had the hundreds of millions of dollars required for such a project, my opinion could change and I would look into it further, but at this time, I think it would be a success.

----------


## Teo9969

OKC *could* support a 50 story residential tower...probably even several 50 story residential towers. The question is *would* it?

If I had to guess...we won't see one of that magnitude until the Cox site opens up for development. I don't see anything remotely close to 50 stories going up around the Park, there's no draw as of now to build residential in the Arts District/Film Row, and 50 stories doesn't seem at all likely anywhere north of 4th. 

Now, I could see some 15 to 30 story residential in really any part of the downtown area, but most likely surrounding the park, but I'd guess that unless there is high-rise residential on the Stage Center block(s), then it's not happening before Union Park is finished.

----------


## Praedura

> ...then it's not happening before *Union Park* is finished.


I see what you did there... and I approve.  :Smile: 




> ... I think we need to see *Union Park*, new CC, StreetCar, FilmRow, etc.....


I see what you did too... and I still approve.  :Smile:

----------


## Teo9969

> The Regency had a penthouse for lease when we moved down here last fall. I wanted it and it was within our budget.  I wanted it mostly because of the view.  I just couldn't get myself to commit to the neighborhood, especially with kids.
> 
> I think the issue with high-rise residential is people start to get picky when they are paying the rates common with those types of offerings.  I think we need to see Union Park, new CC, StreetCar, FilmRow, etc...all make significant progress or even be completed before you will see the critical mass of interest needed to support a tower.  
> 
> If one was built today in that neighborhood, I'd probably stay put in Deep Deuce. Just not enough going for the area.
> 
> Which brings up an important point.  Something I hope developers really sink their teeth into in Downtown.  Urban dwellers really have a keen eye for neighborhood they want to settle in.  It isn't all about the finishes or the appliances.  People who want to buy a condo or lease an apartment in a high-rise downtown, have lifestyle needs that Oklahoma developers need to not just be aware of - but cater to and assist the city in providing.  It isn't enough to just plop a tall building with really nice stuff inside.  People who will be drawn to that building are going to want local amenities and a competitive, urban street-life. 
> 
> I'm not actually sure I'd like to see a mystery high-rise right now. Not for 'new urbanists' reasons but for those I've already stated, I'd rather see a few mid-rise buildings come in and do some valuable infill and get more people in the area.  Right now, we just need people. Lots more people.  Tall buildings in the middle of no-where aren't good at attracting them.


Agreed, and that's what I was alluding to with the "though OKC *could*, *would* it?" I think the answer is no as of now.

But Deep Deuce will be at the 1,000 units mark in the next 3 years (assuming Mosaic, Maywood Phase II, and The Hill's next phase are finished) and both MidTown and Bricktown will have more residential in the next 5 years. So hopefully by 2020 those amenities that are needed (Grocery AND Convenience Store, Daycare, Transportation, Entertainment) will be finished or announced.

If all that is around by 2020, then I think the 15 to 30 story developments start looking more attractive and profitable.

The only reason I think that residential high-rise on Stage Center site would work now is because of its central location and what immediately surrounds it: Devon, Elementary, Myriad Gardens...and it's proximity to both Union Park, 'Peake and the Civic Center, with the likelihood that a residential tower in that spot easily brings several amenities along with it (either through the developer of the tower, or other developers who see the opportunity).

----------


## bchris02

> Agreed, and that's what I was alluding to with the "though OKC *could*, *would* it?" I think the answer is no as of now.
> 
> But Deep Deuce will be at the 1,000 units mark in the next 3 years (assuming Mosaic, Maywood Phase II, and The Hill's next phase are finished) and both MidTown and Bricktown will have more residential in the next 5 years. So hopefully by 2020 those amenities that are needed (Grocery AND Convenience Store, Daycare, Transportation, Entertainment) will be finished or announced.
> 
> If all that is around by 2020, then I think the 15 to 30 story developments start looking more attractive and profitable.
> 
> The only reason I think that residential high-rise on Stage Center site would work now is because of its central location and what immediately surrounds it: Devon, Elementary, Myriad Gardens...and it's proximity to both Union Park, 'Peake and the Civic Center, with the likelihood that a residential tower in that spot easily brings several amenities along with it (either through the developer of the tower, or other developers who see the opportunity).


I definitely get what you are saying, but why can Little Rock of all places support mid-rise residential but OKC can't?  How can Charlotte, which is a tier above OKC but not _that_ far ahead, support several high-rise developments while OKC can't support any?  I don't know if I necessarily believe that it couldn't support it.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Density...



 










...or, im-mobile homes.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

I don't know what those have to do with the mystery tower, but I'm gonna ask my question anyway. What city(ies) are those renderings / pictures from?

----------


## Thundercitizen

Primarily San Francisco and New York City....high rise residential seemed to be a recent trend in this thread.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Primarily San Francisco and New York City....high rise residential seemed to be a recent trend in this thread.


Ahh, I can see it now that you say it. But I was thinking that it was London in some of the pictures. In some of the London development threads it seems that the same architectural style is very similar to those in the pictures above.

----------


## ljbab728

An update on OGE and CenterPoint Energy.

Deal closes for Enogex, CenterPoint master limited partnership for midstream assets | News OK

----------


## G.Walker

Things are happening, it looks like we may rounding 3rd base on this whole thing, shouldn't be too much longer before we have a clearer picture of how the mystery tower will play out.

----------


## Bellaboo

I posted #3937, that some info regarding the merger was to be announced to the Enogex employees in July. I was also told another announcement regarding Enogex/CNP would be made next January.......that was all the info I was told. 
I think were on the cusp of a major announcement soon for the Stage Center site.

----------


## Teo9969

> I definitely get what you are saying, but why can Little Rock of all places support mid-rise residential but OKC can't?  How can Charlotte, which is a tier above OKC but not _that_ far ahead, support several high-rise developments while OKC can't support any?  I don't know if I necessarily believe that it couldn't support it.


Like I said OKC *CAN* support it. I just don't see that OKC for sure will. How long have the brownstones been available and people haven't purchased them, same thing with the Hill? Both of those developments slow starts don't help developers trust the market. And I get that you can't *really* compare single-family townhouses to high-rise residential, but that's the market OKC comes from. I don't know much about Little Rock or Charlotte, but is downtown living (on any scale) something that has been part of the fabric of those cities for a long time...because it's essentially less than a decade old for OKC.

It's coming, but it's going to take some time...I also think that once the first developer builds and is successful, then we'll get several more really soon thereafter. The skyline may look entirely different in 2025 because of new residential development.

----------


## Praedura

> ....The skyline may look entirely different in 2025 because of new residential development.


A tantalizing thought.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Final piece



http://news.yahoo.com/photos/spire-w...ter-slideshow/

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...re-scrapes-sky

----------


## BDP

> How long have the brownstones been available and people haven't purchased them, same thing with the Hill?


This is no longer true. They started slow, but that was more about the general economy as it was for any lack of market demand for downtown living. Over half the brownstones have sold and all will be sold if a pending deal goes through. The Hill is now on Phase II.

Also, when you combine downtown apartment lease rates in general and occupancy of the few high rise residential buildings we have, it seems the demand is already there. Everything else being equal, I can't imagine that many of those living in Level, Deep Deuce, or soon to be living in the Edge would prefer those low rise blocks over a high rise. I think it has more to do with the abundance of undeveloped land downtown and the lower expense of building three store complexes compared to 30 story complexes.

----------


## hoya

> This is no longer true. They started slow, but that was more about the general economy as it was for any lack of market demand for downtown living. Over half the brownstones have sold and all will be sold if a pending deal goes through. The Hill is now on Phase II.
> 
> Also, when you combine downtown apartment lease rates in general and occupancy of the few high rise residential buildings we have, it seems the demand is already there. Everything else being equal, I can't imagine that many of those living in Level, Deep Deuce, or soon to be living in the Edge would prefer those low rise blocks over a high rise. I think it has more to do with the abundance of undeveloped land downtown and the lower expense of building three store complexes compared to 30 story complexes.


Yeah, if you can make a good return on your investment with a 3 story complex, why go through the trouble of building a 30 story high-rise?  Even if you make more on the high-rise, you can just build additional 3 story buildings to make up the difference.  We're going to need to see a lot of the vacant land disappear before someone becomes adventurous enough to build taller.

----------


## BDP

> Yeah, if you can make a good return on your investment with a 3 story complex, why go through the trouble of building a 30 story high-rise?  Even if you make more on the high-rise, you can just build additional 3 story buildings to make up the difference.  We're going to need to see a lot of the vacant land disappear before someone becomes adventurous enough to build taller.


It's possible we see it happen before its all developed, mainly because a lot of it is already owned by developers and there may not be much land for a new player to do anything but a high rise. But, yeah, I think it's more likely to happen after we see more in fill and some of the fill may be (or should be) more like 6-7 story mixed use type stuff. I could see that in Midtown below 10th.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I think were on the cusp of a major announcement soon for the Stage Center site.


 Excellent…I certainly hope that's the case!

----------


## buylow

Were i a betting man, I'd say oge/enogex/CPT are building a tower.

----------


## Bellaboo

From todays chat on the Mystery Tower -

Steve -   'Still not worried'.

----------


## zookeeper

> From todays chat on the Mystery Tower -
> 
> Steve -   'Still not worried'.


If Steve's not worried, I'm not worried. Time and patience is all we need.

----------


## dcsooner

> From todays chat on the Mystery Tower -
> 
> Steve -   'Still not worried'.


That quote is not a real indication of anything "firm" with regards to a new corporate presence in OKC or Tower.  He may not be worried, but I am "not sold"

----------


## HangryHippo

> That quote is not a real indication of anything "firm" with regards to a new corporate presence in OKC or Tower.  He may not be worried, but I am "not sold"


Exactly. I feel the same way.

----------


## edcrunk

I trust Steve.

----------


## coov23

DC, you find ways to take jabs at okc any chance you can. I live in the same area as you-- between Balt/DC and Philly-- and love it. The difference is I have pride and faith in a community where I grew up. OKC has had a great transformation. Pessimistic attitude, like yours, is not the reason why. I trust Steve has the inside source. You should too.

----------


## Bellaboo

> DC, you find ways to take jabs at okc any chance you can. I live in the same area as you-- between Balt/DC and Philly-- and love it. The difference is I have pride and faith in a community where I grew up. OKC has had a great transformation. Pessimistic attitude, like yours, is not the reason why. I trust Steve has the inside source. You should too.


He's just a hater !!!    LOL       

I think he's actually wanting to be proven wrong on the Mystery Tower.

----------


## adaniel

^
Nope, just a hater. Just shake 'em off...dcsooner has been saying ridiculous, inflammatory, and insulting things at least since I've been a regular poster. For an area he seems to have a disdain for, he sure is on here a lot. Oh well. 

And for what its worth, I've heard from at least 3 other people that tell me something is brewing on the stage center site. Of course I am assuming these people are not actual posters on this site, but they pretty much tell me the same thing that Steve has said.

----------


## dcsooner

> ^
> Nope, just a hater. Just shake 'em off...dcsooner has been saying ridiculous, inflammatory, and insulting things at least since I've been a regular poster. For an area he seems to have a disdain for, he sure is on here a lot. Oh well. 
> 
> And for what its worth, I've heard from at least 3 other people that tell me something is brewing on the stage center site. Of course I am assuming these people are not actual posters on this site, but they pretty much tell me the same thing that Steve has said.




It is obvious that many on this forum misunderstand my oft stated reservations with regards to some of the "major announcements" forthcoming for OKC. You could not be more wrong to suggest that I am a "hater", or taking jabs at anything OKC. Chill out people, I am just relying on history in taking a cautious approach to these possible announcements. If you have been in Oklahoma/Oklahoma City for any length of time, you know the checkered history of potential OKC economic wins.

Boeing Jobs is a win !, GE is a win! I as you are am estactic about these major wins, however, I cannot remember one MAJOR corporation that has moved to OKC from ouside the State and established a HQ presence and I am in my 50's. I hope this will change, but show me evidence that should cause me to be "all in" because Steve  is 'not worried". OKC has made tremendous strides over the last 20 years and I am as proud of that progress as any of you, but, I also know of Oklahomas "boom and bust" cyclical economic history. Example, two of our largest Corporations are in leadership flux, one with large undeveloped real estate parcels in the NW and the other with one part of DT OKC depending on what its new board of directors decide.

Just know that when OKC announces a major economic coup, I am celebrating, but, I also know to not spike the ball before you cross the finish line.

----------


## Bellaboo

He's not a hater...... he wants the Mysery Tower to happen. 

Even though small but growing, Flogistix did move their HQ from Texas to downtown OKC last year......if you watch the Thunder games, they advertise all the time.

----------


## Praedura

> Even though small but growing, Flogistix did move their HQ from Texas to downtown OKC last year......if you watch the Thunder games, they advertise all the time.


Oh yeah, baby, that's what I'm talkin' about! lol

Here's a video about the making of those commercials by VI Marketing:

Behind the Camera - The Making of Flogistix Commercials - YouTube

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> It is obvious that many on this forum misunderstand my oft stated reservations with regards to some of the "major announcements" forthcoming for OKC. You could not be more wrong to suggest that I am a "hater", or taking jabs at anything OKC. Chill out people, I am just relying on history in taking a cautious approach to these possible announcements. If you have been in Oklahoma/Oklahoma City for any length of time, you know the checkered history of potential OKC economic wins.
> 
> Boeing Jobs is a win !, GE is a win! I as you are am estactic about these major wins, however, I cannot remember one MAJOR corporation that has moved to OKC from ouside the State and established a HQ presence and I am in my 50's. I hope this will change, but show me evidence that should cause me to be "all in" because Steve  is 'not worried". OKC has made tremendous strides over the last 20 years and I am as proud of that progress as any of you, but, I also know of Oklahomas "boom and bust" cyclical economic history. Example, two of our largest Corporations are in leadership flux, one with large undeveloped real estate parcels in the NW and the other with one part of DT OKC depending on what its new board of directors decide.
> 
> Just know that when OKC announces a major economic coup, I am celebrating, but, I also know to not spike the ball before you cross the finish line.


I agree with you. I want this tower to happen, and at this time, I do trust Steve just because of the fact he predicted the Devon tower, or from what I've heard on this board and Skyscraper forum. He seems knowledgeable and confident that this will happen, so I trust him. But, in my everyday mindset, I go about as we're not getting a tower and it will come to a shock to me when/if they announce one. 

I also hate to say this, but, it would really be a tough choice for most it seems like building a huge tower here with Dallas just down the road lol. . . So, if a major corporate does decide to relocate here, that's better than the Thunder, imo. That would signify OKC as a true boom city and would really boost our already up and coming city by HUGE proportions!!! I really hope this happens.

----------


## Teo9969

dc and plutonic,

The assumption made by Steve and many others should not be thought of in any way, shape, or form as a corporate relocation. OKC is not stealing anything from anywhere with the deal that is being assumed as a possibility...a local OKC company is teaming up with a Houston company to form a new company which the local OKC company will operate.

----------


## Anonymous.

> dc and plutonic,
> 
> The assumption made by Steve and many others should not be thought of in any way, shape, or form as a corporate relocation. OKC is not stealing anything from anywhere with the deal that is being assumed as a possibility...a local OKC company is teaming up with a Houston company to form a new company which the local OKC company will operate.




Yea I am not sure why people keep posting in this thread saying how "it's never going to happen, keep dreaming" etc. It is pretty blatant that this CenterPoint/Enogex/OGE thing is the mystery, that was no longer a mystery since mid-March.

Patience is something that is helpful when anticipating anything in the future. Learn it.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

People that say they don't care, really do care.  People that dish out the most love are usually the ones that need more love than anyone.  People that live their lives alone really want to be with everyone.  I think Steve says he's not worried, but in reality he's worried.  He just doesn't want to cause major panic amongst those of us on here or his readers on newsok or in the actual print of the paper.

----------


## Teo9969

> People that say they don't care, really do care.  People that dish out the most love are usually the ones that need more love than anyone.  People that live their lives alone really want to be with everyone.  I think Steve says he's not worried, but in reality he's worried.  He just doesn't want to cause major panic amongst those of us on here or his readers on newsok or in the actual print of the paper.


This is just silly. Tell you what...if you can find a modicum of evidence that demonstrates this is a tendency of Steve's, I'd consider this line of thought. Otherwise it's just platitudinous and baseless.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> This is just silly. Tell you what...if you can find a modicum of evidence that demonstrates this is a tendency of Steve's, I'd consider this line of thought. Otherwise it's just platitudinous and baseless.


So, it's baseless that he wouldn't want OKCtalk to go into meltdown mode?  Look at the cookey for cocoa puffs this thread is and has become...  This thread itself is baseless.  Tell me you don't agree with that, lol...

----------


## dankrutka

> So, it's baseless that he wouldn't want OKCtalk to go into meltdown mode?  Look at the cookey for cocoa puffs this thread is and has become...  This thread itself is baseless.  Tell me you don't agree with that, lol...


Yes. It's baseless. I pretty much guarantee Steve does not put the possibility of this thread going "into meltdown mode" above his credibility (which, by the way, is kind of important for a journalist). Besides, what does meltdown mode even mean? This thread would just die and people would move on to posts with substance. 

This thread has many absurd comments, many guesses, and some leads that might or might not pan out, but its not entirely baseless.

----------


## Teo9969

> So, it's baseless that he wouldn't want OKCtalk to go into meltdown mode?  Look at the cookey for cocoa puffs this thread is and has become...  This thread itself is baseless.  Tell me you don't agree with that, lol...


To answer your question, unequivocally YES it is baseless that Steve is concerned about OKCTalk going into meltdown mode over an unannounced tower. And yes I think 95% of this thread is baseless (I'm pretty sure I've read almost every word of it).

However...

The thread got a shock of "OH...this is probably what we've been talking about for a year now" in early march when the Centerpoint/Enogex MLP was announced. The baseless was taken out of the equation when articles outright said (something along the lines of): "This partnership will be funded more by Centerpoint and operated more by OGE/Enogex". The assumption, which seems particularly rational, is that the headquarters will be where the operating company is located.

Furthermore, I think it's safe to say that if this were going to be built in Houston, we'd be hearing BAD news that Enogex employees are leaving the state...that's really the only option: OKC gets a new HQ (probably a tower) or OKC loses employees to Houston.

What boggles my mind is that for all the bright people on this board, people are letting their impatience get in the way of very simple realities: An $11Billion company (which is bigger than the market caps of SD and OGE combined) doesn't just happen overnight. In fact, the dealings started behind closed doors well before March I'm sure...Long enough that not many people know that ACMP (formerly Chesapeake Midstream now Access Midstream) was involved in the deal early on to help the two companies figure out how to set up an MLP. With that piece no longer in the picture, it may be that they're behind schedule because of unforeseen issues in setting up the company correctly. Or any number of ducks that must all be perfectly in a row for an $11,000,000,000 company to just appear out of thin air...

And smart people on this board are worried about a 90 day "setback"?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Most smart people on this board just stay away from this thread.  The lunacy is enough to drive a sane person mad.  Speaking of... lol.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Most smart people on this board just stay away from this thread.  The lunacy is enough to drive a sane person mad.  Speaking of... lol.


Nah. This thread is like a puzzle. It's kind of fun watching it come together, how the pieces are starting to fall into place. Just this past week the Enogex/CNP MLP finally got government approval. This process takes time.

----------


## Just the facts

Since I have a disdain for tall out of scale building anyhow, if the Mystery Tower never materialized I would be just as happy.  However, I would like the additional downtown employment such a headquarters would bring.  I actually wouldn't mind if OKC adopted a 400' height limit for anything that doesn't cover 100% of the lot.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> To answer your question, unequivocally YES it is baseless that Steve is concerned about OKCTalk going into meltdown mode over an unannounced tower. And yes I think 95% of this thread is baseless (I'm pretty sure I've read almost every word of it).
> 
> However...
> 
> The thread got a shock of "OH...this is probably what we've been talking about for a year now" in early march when the Centerpoint/Enogex MLP was announced. The baseless was taken out of the equation when articles outright said (something along the lines of): "This partnership will be funded more by Centerpoint and operated more by OGE/Enogex". The assumption, which seems particularly rational, is that the headquarters will be where the operating company is located.
> 
> Furthermore, I think it's safe to say that if this were going to be built in Houston, we'd be hearing BAD news that Enogex employees are leaving the state...that's really the only option: OKC gets a new HQ (probably a tower) or OKC loses employees to Houston.
> 
> What boggles my mind is that for all the bright people on this board, people are letting their impatience get in the way of very simple realities: An $11Billion company (which is bigger than the market caps of SD and OGE combined) doesn't just happen overnight. In fact, the dealings started behind closed doors well before March I'm sure...Long enough that not many people know that ACMP (formerly Chesapeake Midstream now Access Midstream) was involved in the deal early on to help the two companies figure out how to set up an MLP. With that piece no longer in the picture, it may be that they're behind schedule because of unforeseen issues in setting up the company correctly. Or any number of ducks that must all be perfectly in a row for an $11,000,000,000 company to just appear out of thin air...
> ...


Actually this is one of the more sensible comments that I have seen on this thread.  I had lunch with several OG&E execs last week and they all act like the new company will be here.  Of course when I tried to pin them down on specifics they were all very tight lipped.

----------


## HangryHippo

> To answer your question, unequivocally YES it is baseless that Steve is concerned about OKCTalk going into meltdown mode over an unannounced tower. And yes I think 95% of this thread is baseless (I'm pretty sure I've read almost every word of it).
> 
> However...
> 
> The thread got a shock of "OH...this is probably what we've been talking about for a year now" in early march when the Centerpoint/Enogex MLP was announced. The baseless was taken out of the equation when articles outright said (something along the lines of): "This partnership will be funded more by Centerpoint and operated more by OGE/Enogex". The assumption, which seems particularly rational, is that the headquarters will be where the operating company is located.
> 
> Furthermore, I think it's safe to say that if this were going to be built in Houston, we'd be hearing BAD news that Enogex employees are leaving the state...that's really the only option: OKC gets a new HQ (probably a tower) or OKC loses employees to Houston.
> 
> What boggles my mind is that for all the bright people on this board, people are letting their impatience get in the way of very simple realities: An $11Billion company (which is bigger than the market caps of SD and OGE combined) doesn't just happen overnight. In fact, the dealings started behind closed doors well before March I'm sure...Long enough that not many people know that ACMP (formerly Chesapeake Midstream now Access Midstream) was involved in the deal early on to help the two companies figure out how to set up an MLP. With that piece no longer in the picture, it may be that they're behind schedule because of unforeseen issues in setting up the company correctly. Or any number of ducks that must all be perfectly in a row for an $11,000,000,000 company to just appear out of thin air...
> ...


This is, by far, the most persuasive case that has been made for why the Mystery Tower might be the Centerpoint/Enogex MLP.  Great post, Teo.  I have my doubts, but I hope you're right.

----------


## Steve

> People that say they don't care, really do care.  People that dish out the most love are usually the ones that need more love than anyone.  People that live their lives alone really want to be with everyone.  I think Steve says he's not worried, but in reality he's worried.  He just doesn't want to cause major panic amongst those of us on here or his readers on newsok or in the actual print of the paper.


No. I say I'm not worried because I'm not worried. From what I'm seeing, hearing, everything is moving forward with development of the Stage Center site. It's not my job to try to cause or not cause panic. It's my job to navigate all the information I get, maintain confidentiality when required, and balance all that to try to keep readers informed.

----------


## Praedura

> ...*This thread has many absurd comments*, many guesses, and some leads that might or might not pan out, but its not entirely baseless.


That is simply not anti-untrue. I have many a thus floundered the light fantastic and that which behooves us. What's the frequency, fnord? Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down. 
And don't forget to floss your elephant.

Long live cabbage!

----------


## hoya

> That is simply not anti-untrue. I have many a thus floundered the light fantastic and that which behooves us. What's the frequency, fnord? Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down. 
> And don't forget to floss your elephant.
> 
> Long live cabbage!


Now someone is talking sense.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> This process takes time.


I'm not unaware of that like some people on here.  I do realize that the world today is an instant society.  I do realize that the whole Devon process probably took 6+ years to go from an idea in one man's head to a reality.

----------


## metro

> I agree with you. I want this tower to happen, and at this time, I do trust Steve just because of the fact he predicted the Devon tower, or from what I've heard on this board and Skyscraper forum. He seems knowledgeable and confident that this will happen, so I trust him. But, in my everyday mindset, I go about as we're not getting a tower and it will come to a shock to me when/if they announce one. 
> 
> I also hate to say this, but, it would really be a tough choice for most it seems like building a huge tower here with Dallas just down the road lol. . . So, if a major corporate does decide to relocate here, that's better than the Thunder, imo. That would signify OKC as a true boom city and would really boost our already up and coming city by HUGE proportions!!! I really hope this happens.


hello, he's a journalist, he he has first hand access by default to the story, it's not coincidence.

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## Plutonic Panda

> hello, he's a journalist, he he has first hand access by default to the story, it's not coincidence.


Ummmmm, yeah, I understand that. what's your reasoning behind that response??????? (on a cowboy boot). . . said by Steve Brule, "FOR YOUR HEALTH!"

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Ummmmm, yeah, I understand that. what's your reasoning behind that response??????? (on a cowboy boot). . . said by Steve Brule, "FOR YOUR HEALTH!"


What you said in the post metro quoted looks like you're saying Steve doesn't have inside information, just that he's good at predicting & he seems confident on this prediction. I know that's not what you meant, but it still comes across that way. Especially if someone is just glancing through the posts and reads that.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> What you said in the post metro quoted looks like you're saying Steve doesn't have inside information, just that he's good at predicting & he seems confident on this prediction. I know that's not what you meant, but it still comes across that way. Especially if someone is just glancing through the posts and reads that.


Oh, no no. . . Yeah, that's not what I meant at all haha. . . I believe Steve does have inside info on this and I firmly think he is in the know and I trust him no doubt.  :Smile:  Sorry about that misunderstanding. I have a hard time explaining my thoughts on the internet sometimes haha  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## HangryHippo

> Oh, no no. . . Yeah, that's not what I meant at all haha. . . I believe Steve does have inside info on this and I firmly think he is in the know and I trust him no doubt.  Sorry about that misunderstanding. I have a hard time explaining my thoughts on the internet sometimes haha


Steve, without naming names/providing hints (whatever you need to do to maintain confidentiality), can you confirm if you have inside information on the proceedings for the Stage Center site or are you basing your lack of worry on hearsay?  I mean, are you that close to the proceedings and know what's likely in the pipeline (I'm here all week!) or are you dealing in rumors just like we are?

----------


## Bellaboo

Not to speak for Steve, but...........

Steve is more 'fact than fiction'......

----------


## hoya

Anything Steve knows is hearsay unless he's the one negotiating the deal. That said, he's not testifying in court on this. His sources are certainly better than mine.

----------


## Steve

I'm not dealing with rumors or hearsay. What I tell you is based on what I know.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I'm not dealing with rumors or hearsay. What I tell you is based on what I know.


Thank you for answering.

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## OKCisOK4me

Steve could easily give a hint at some concrete information as opposed to just saying "I'm not worried" "I'm not worried" "I'm not worried" every time a question is brought up about the tower whether on here or on his Friday morning chats.  There's going to be 15,000 more "I'm not worried" quotes by him between now and any story he releases on the subject which is why this thread should be locked...lol.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Steve could easily give a hint at some concrete information as opposed to just saying "I'm not worried" "I'm not worried" "I'm not worried" every time a question is brought up about the tower whether on here or on his Friday morning chats.  There's going to be 15,000 more "I'm not worried" quotes by him between now and any story he releases on the subject which is why this thread should be locked...lol.


I wish it was as simple as he could easily give away hints. People try to make reality a lot more simple than it truly is.

& we shouldn't lock a read because of an answer that Steve gives in his Friday chats. Here's been a lot more "rumors" in this thread than Steve saying "I'm not worried". I don't see a need for this thread to be closed when no one has said "gotcha, the mystery tower never existed. Jokes on you".

----------


## Jim Kyle

> People try to make reality a lot more simple than it truly is.


I like the quote from Einstein: "Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler."

----------


## Bellaboo

FWIW - Steve's not going to break any new Tower story on OKCTALK. But it'll be posted here about 5 nano seconds after the story is released.

----------


## dankrutka

> Steve could easily give a hint at some concrete information as opposed to just saying "I'm not worried" "I'm not worried" "I'm not worried" every time a question is brought up about the tower whether on here or on his Friday morning chats.  There's going to be 15,000 more "I'm not worried" quotes by him between now and any story he releases on the subject which is why this thread should be locked...lol.


Steve has a job. He gives us veiled hints because that's all he can do considering his responsibilities as a journalist. Is this really so hard to understand? Steve has never relied on rumors like the rest of this board. If you want more information then you'll have to wait for the story to break. Beggars can't be choosers.

I recommend you not visit the thread, Steve's chats, ect. if you're so worried about the information provided. It's a pretty easy solution.

----------


## adaniel

I'm not sure some on here know how business and real estate work. These things are dependent upon certain levels of confidentiality. Blabbing intimate details, even ones that are not true, could blow a multi-million dollar deal, and probably get the Oklahoman sued and Steve fired. I wouldn't ask that of anyone to satisfy the impatient masses on the interwebs.

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## bchris02

> I'm not sure some on here know how business and real estate work. These things are dependent upon certain levels of confidentiality. Blabbing intimate details, even ones that are not true, could blow a multi-million dollar deal, and probably get the Oklahoman sued and Steve fired. I wouldn't ask that of anyone to satisfy the impatient masses on the interwebs.


Good points. The mystery tower will be revealed as soon as Steve is able to do so. Until then we can keep speculating but we can't expect him to reveal information that he isn't yet able to reveal.

----------


## OKCRT

> Good points. The mystery tower will be revealed as soon as Steve is able to do so. Until then we can keep speculating but we can't expect him to reveal information that he isn't yet able to reveal.


Agree.In Steve we trust... Relax,I am not worried either.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Steve, without naming names/providing hints (whatever you need to do to maintain confidentiality), can you confirm if you have inside information on the proceedings for the Stage Center site or are you basing your lack of worry on hearsay?  I mean, are you that close to the proceedings and know what's likely in the pipeline (I'm here all week!) or are you dealing in rumors just like we are?


Any particular reason you quoted me?

----------


## Bellaboo

Just to show how complicated this Enogex/CNP MLP formation is - from yesterday 5/7/2013 -


Form 8-K for CENTERPOINT ENERGY INC 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7-May-2013

Completion of Acquisition or Disposition of Assets, Other Events, Financia



Item 2.01 Completion of Acquisition or Disposition of Assets. 
Formation of Midstream Partnership 

As previously reported, CenterPoint Energy, Inc. ("CenterPoint") entered into a Master Formation Agreement ("MFA") on March 14, 2013 with OGE Energy Corp. ("OGE") and two affiliates of ArcLight Capital Partners, LLC, Bronco Midstream Holdings, LLC ("Bronco I") and Bronco Midstream Holdings II, LLC (together with Bronco I, the "Bronco Group"), pursuant to which CenterPoint, OGE and the Bronco Group agreed to form a midstream partnership (the "Midstream Partnership") to own and operate the midstream businesses of CenterPoint and OGE that will initially be structured as a private limited partnership. On May 1, 2013, the parties closed the formation of the Midstream Partnership. 

In connection with the closing (i) CenterPoint Energy Resources Corp., a wholly owned subsidiary of CenterPoint ("CERC"), converted its wholly owned subsidiary, CenterPoint Energy Field Services, LLC ("CEFS"), into a Delaware limited partnership that became the Midstream Partnership, (ii) CERC contributed to the Midstream Partnership its equity interests in each of CenterPoint Energy Gas Transmission Company, LLC, CenterPoint Energy-Mississippi River Transmission, LLC, certain of its other midstream subsidiaries, and a 24.95% interest in Southeast Supply Header, LLC and (iii) OGE and ArcLight indirectly contributed 100% of the equity interests in Enogex LLC ("Enogex") to the Midstream Partnership. 

Certain of the entities contributed to the Midstream Partnership by CERC are obligated on approximately $363 million of indebtedness owed to a wholly owned subsidiary of CERC that is scheduled to mature in 2017. In addition at closing, Enogex was obligated on approximately $700 million, in the aggregate, in indebtedness under its term loan and two series of its senior notes maturing in years 2014 and 2020. 

Organizational Documents of Midstream Partnership 

Under the First Amended and Restated Agreement of Limited Partnership of the Midstream Partnership (the "LP Agreement"), as of the closing, CERC holds an approximate 58.3 percent of the limited partner interests in the Midstream Partnership and OGE and the Bronco Group hold approximately 28.5 and 13.2 percent, respectively, of the limited partner interests. The LP Agreement provides that transfers of any limited partner interests will be subject to specified conditions, including, for a period of time, rights of first offer and rights of first refusal. 

Following the closing, CERC has certain put rights, and the Midstream Partnership has certain call rights, exercisable with respect to the interest in SESH retained by CERC, under which CERC would contribute to the Midstream Partnership CERC's retained interest in SESH at a price equal to the fair market value of such interest at the time the put right or call right is exercised. If CERC were to exercise such put right or the Midstream Partnership were to exercise such call right, CERC's retained interest in SESH would be contributed to the Midstream Partnership in exchange for consideration consisting of a specified number of limited partnership units and, subject to certain restrictions, a cash payment, payable either from CERC to the Midstream Partnership or from the Midstream Partnership to CERC, in an amount such that the total consideration exchanged is equal in value to the fair market value of the contributed interest in SESH. 

Prior to an initial public offering of the Midstream Partnership (the "IPO"), 100% of Distributable Cash (as defined in the LP Agreement) will be distributed to the limited partners each quarter. After an IPO, 100% of Available Cash (as defined in the LP Agreement) will be distributed to the limited partners each quarter. Following an IPO, the general partner will also own incentive distribution rights that will entitle it to an increasing percentage of quarterly cash distributions after specified distributions have been made to the limited partners. The LP Agreement also includes provisions governing the treatment of capital accounts, tax treatment and withdrawal of partners. The general partner may be removed by the vote of 75 percent of the limited partner interests. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Amended and Restated Limited Liability Company Agreement of the general partner of the Midstream Partnership (the "LLC Agreement") provides that the general partner will be equally controlled by CERC and OGE, who each own 50% of the management rights in the general partner. CERC and OGE will also own a 40% and 60% interest, respectively, in any incentive distribution rights to be held by the general partner of the Midstream Partnership following an initial public offering of the Midstream Partnership. The LLC Agreement provides that, until May 1, 2016, no transfers (other than transfers to affiliates) of membership interests in the general partner will be permitted. 
The general partner of the Midstream Partnership will initially be governed by a board made up of an equal number of representatives designated by each of CenterPoint and OGE. Actions of the board of directors generally will require majority approval. Under the terms of the LLC Agreement, if the board of directors is unable to reach a majority approval, specified procedures, including potentially a separate vote of the independent directors (if any) or mediation, will be implemented to resolve the deadlock. For a period of time after formation, the Bronco Group will have board observation rights and approval rights over certain material activities of the Midstream Partnership, including material increases in capital expenditures and certain equity issuances, entering into transactions with related parties and acquiring, pledging or disposing of certain material assets. 

CenterPoint has designated David M. McClanahan, President and Chief Executive Officer of CenterPoint, and Gary L. Whitlock, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer of CenterPoint, and OGE has designated Pete Delaney, Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer of OGE, and Sean Trauschke, Vice President and Chief Financial Officer of OGE, as their initial representatives on the board of directors of the general partner. While the Midstream Partnership's leadership team is being assembled, C. Gregory Harper and Keith Mitchell will continue to be responsible for the former CenterPoint and Enogex midstream operations, respectively. 

Registration Rights Agreement 

Pursuant to a Registration Rights Agreement among the parties entered into at the closing (the "Registration Rights Agreement"), OGE and CenterPoint have agreed to initiate the process for the sale of an equity interest in the Midstream Partnership in an IPO. CenterPoint and CERC can give no assurances that the IPO will be consummated. Prior to consummating the IPO, CenterPoint, OGE and the Midstream Partnership will need to complete the negotiation of the financial and other terms, including the initial public offering price. In addition, consummation of the IPO is subject to market conditions. For so long as the Bronco Group maintains a minimum ownership percentage, the Bronco Group is entitled to consult with the Midstream Partnership in connection with the IPO. The Midstream Partnership has agreed to file a registration statement for the IPO no later than May 1, 2014 and, subject to limited exceptions, consummate the IPO within 180 days of the filing of the registration statement. This report does not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of any offer to buy, the equity of the Midstream Partnership. Any offers or solicitations of offers to buy, or any sales of securities, will only be made in accordance with the registration requirements of the Securities Act of 1933 (the "Securities Act") or an exemption therefrom. 

The Registration Rights Agreement also provides that, subject to certain limitations, (i) each of CenterPoint and OGE is entitled, beginning 180 days after the IPO, and (ii) the Bronco Group is entitled, beginning on the date that the Midstream Partnership is first eligible to file a registration statement under Form S-3, to demand that the Midstream Partnership effect the registration under the Securities Act of the common units of the Midstream Partnership held by such party. In connection with the preparation and filing of any registration statement, the Midstream Partnership will bear all costs and expenses incidental to any registration statement. Any underwriting discounts and commissions will be borne by the seller of the common units of the Midstream Partnership. 

Omnibus Agreement 

Pursuant to the terms of an Omnibus Agreement among the parties entered into at the closing (the "Omnibus Agreement"), CenterPoint, OGE and the Bronco Group have agreed to certain indemnification obligations in favor of the Midstream Partnership with respect to, among others, environmental, title, permits, rights-of-way and tax matters. The indemnification obligations are subject to certain deductibles and caps. The Omnibus Agreement also provides that, as soon as reasonably practicable following the selection of a new name for the Midstream Partnership or in any event by May 1, 2014, the Midstream Partnership will cease to use the names "CenterPoint," "OGE" and "Enogex." 

. . . 




Item 8.01 Other Events. 
In connection with the formation of the Midstream Partnership, on May 1, 2013, the Midstream Partnership entered into a $1.05 billion three-year senior unsecured term loan facility (the "Term Loan Facility") with Citibank, N.A., as administrative agent, UBS Securities LLC, as syndication agent, JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. ("JPMCB") and Wells Fargo Bank, National Association ("Wells Fargo") as co-documentation agents, and the several lenders thereto. The proceeds of the loans advanced pursuant to the Term Loan Facility were used to repay $1.05 billion of intercompany indebtedness owed by the predecessor entity to the Midstream Partnership to CERC. CERC has guaranteed collection (not payment) of the Midstream Partnership's obligations under the Term Loan Facility, which guarantee is subordinated to all senior debt of CERC. 

On May 1, 2013, the Midstream Partnership also entered into a $1.4 billion five-year senior unsecured revolving credit facility (the "Revolving Credit Facility") with Citibank, N.A., as administrative agent, UBS Securities LLC, as syndication agent, JPMCB and Wells Fargo, as co-documentation agents, the lenders from time to time party thereto and the letter of credit issuers from time to time party thereto. 

The Term Loan Facility and the Revolving Credit Facility each permits outstanding borrowings to bear interest at the London Interbank Offered Rate ("LIBOR") and/or an alternate base rate, at the Midstream Partnership's election, plus an applicable margin. The applicable margin is based on the Midstream Partnership's applicable credit ratings. As of May 1, 2013, the applicable margin for LIBOR-based borrowings under the Term Loan Facility and the Revolving Credit Facility was 1.625% based on the Midstream Partnership's credit ratings. 

In addition, the Revolving Credit Facility requires the Midstream Partnership to pay a fee on unused commitments. The commitment fee is based on the Midstream Partnership's applicable credit rating from the Rating Agencies. As of May 1, 2013, the commitment fee under the Revolving Credit Facility was 0.25% per annum based on the Midstream Partnership's credit ratings. 

As of May 1, 2013, Moody's Investors Service, Inc., Standard & Poor's Ratings Services, a division of The McGraw-Hill Companies, and Fitch, Inc. (the "Rating Agencies") had assigned the following credit ratings to the debt of the Midstream Partnership: 


                                  Moody's                 S&P                  Fitch
                            Rating   Outlook(1)   Rating   Outlook(2)   Rating   Outlook(3)
Revolving Credit Facility     -          -         BBB-      Stable      BBB       Stable
Term Loan                    Baa3      Stable      BBB-      Stable      BBB       Stable
Senior Unsecured Debt         -          -         BBB-      Stable      BBB       Stable




(1) A Moody's rating outlook is an opinion regarding the likely direction of an issuer's rating over the medium term. 

(2) An S&P rating outlook assesses the potential direction of a long-term credit rating over the intermediate to longer term. 

(3) A Fitch rating outlook encompasses a one- to two-year horizon as to the likely ratings direction. 

CenterPoint cannot assure you that the ratings set forth above will remain in effect for any given period of time or that one or more of these ratings will not be lowered or withdrawn entirely by a rating agency. CenterPoint notes that these credit ratings are included for informational purposes and are not recommendations to buy, sell or hold its securities and may be revised or withdrawn at any time by the rating agency. Each rating should be evaluated independently of any other rating. A decline in these credit ratings could increase borrowing costs under each of the facilities and commitment fees under the Revolving Credit Facility. In addition, any future reduction or withdrawal of one or more of these credit ratings could have a material adverse impact on the Midstream Partnership's ability to obtain short-and long-term financing, the cost of such financings and the execution of its commercial strategies. 

Advances under the Revolving Credit Facility are subject to certain conditions precedent, including the accuracy in all material respects of certain representations and warranties and the absence of any default or event of default. Initial advances under the Revolving Credit Facility were used for general corporate purposes and to refinance the Enogex revolving credit facility, which was terminated in connection with closing of the Midstream Partnership formation, and existing indebtedness owing by Enogex to OGE as of May 1, 2013. As of May 1, 2013, there was approximately $107.1 million in principal advances and approximately $2.0 million in letters of credit outstanding under the Revolving Credit Facility. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Term Loan Facility and the Revolving Credit Facility each contains a financial covenant requiring the Midstream Partnership to maintain a ratio of consolidated funded debt to consolidated earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization ("EBITDA") as of the last day of each fiscal quarter of less than or equal to 5.00 to 1.00; provided that, for a certain period of time following the consummation by the Midstream Partnership or certain of its subsidiaries of any one or more related acquisitions with a purchase price of at least $50 million in the aggregate, the consolidated funded debt to EBITDA ratio as of the last day of each such fiscal quarter during such period would be permitted to be up to 5.50 to 1.00. 
The Term Loan Facility and the Revolving Credit Facility also contain covenants that restrict the Midstream Partnership and certain subsidiaries in respect of, among other things, mergers and consolidations, sales of all or substantially all assets, incurrence of subsidiary indebtedness, incurrence of liens, transactions with affiliates, designation of subsidiaries as Excluded Subsidiaries (as defined in the Term Loan Facility and the Revolving Credit Facility), restricted payments, changes in the nature of their respective businesses and entering into certain restrictive agreements. The Term Loan Facility and the Revolving Credit Facility are each subject to acceleration upon the occurrence of certain defaults, including, among others, payment defaults on such facility, breach of representations, warranties and covenants, acceleration of indebtedness (other than intercompany) of $100 million or more in the aggregate, change of control, nonpayment of uninsured money judgments in excess of $100 million, and the occurrence of certain ERISA and bankruptcy events, subject where applicable to specified cure periods. 

The foregoing descriptions of the Term Loan Facility and the Revolving Credit Facility do not purport to be complete and are qualified in their entirety by reference to the full text of such documents. Copies of the Term Loan Facility and the Revolving Credit Facility are filed as Exhibits 99.1 and 99.2 hereto and are incorporated herein by reference. 

Forward-Looking Statements 

This filing contains forward-looking statements, which are subject to risks, uncertainties, assumptions and other factors that are difficult to predict and that could cause actual results to vary materially from those expressed in or indicated by them. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially include, but are not limited to (1) the inability to consummate the proposed IPO in a timely manner or at all; (2) risks that the transaction disrupts current plans and operations of CenterPoint or CERC; (3) potential difficulties in employee retention as a result of the transaction; (4) the ability to recognize the benefits of the proposed transaction; and (5) other factors described in CenterPoint's and CERC's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Many of the factors that will determine the outcome of the subject matter of this filing are beyond the ability of CenterPoint or CERC to control or predict. Except as required by law, CenterPoint and CERC undertake no obligation to revise or update any forward-looking statement, or to make any other forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise. 





Item 9.01 Financial Statements and Exhibits. 
(a) Financial statements of businesses acquired. 

As permitted by Item 9.01(a)(4) of Form 8-K, the Registrant will, if required, file the financial statements required by Item 9.01(a)(1) of Form 8-K pursuant to an amendment to this Form 8-K not later than 71 calendar days after the date this initial report on Form 8-K must be filed. 

(b) Pro forma financial information. 

As permitted by Item 9.01(b)(2) of Form 8-K, the Registrant will, if required, file the financial statements required by Item 9.01(b)(1) of Form 8-K pursuant to an amendment to this Form 8-K not later than 71 calendar days after the date this initial report on Form 8-K must be filed. 

(d) Exhibits 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exhibit
  No.        Description

  2.1        Master Formation Agreement dated March 14, 2013 by and among
             CenterPoint Energy, Inc., OGE Energy Corp., Bronco Midstream Holdings,
             LLC and Bronco Midstream Holdings II, LLC. (incorporated by reference
             to Exhibit 2.1 to the Registrant's Current Report on Form 8-K filed on
             March 18, 2013).

 10.1        First Amended and Restated Agreement of Limited Partnership of
             CenterPoint Energy Field Services LP dated as of May 1, 2013.

 10.2        Amended and Restated Limited Liability Company Agreement of CNP OGE GP
             LLC dated as of May 1, 2013.

 10.3        Registration Rights Agreement dated as of May 1, 2013 by and among
             CenterPoint Energy Field Services LP, CenterPoint Energy Resources
             Corp., OGE Enogex Holdings LLC, and Enogex Holdings LLC.

 10.4        Omnibus Agreement dated as of May 1, 2013 among CenterPoint Energy,
             Inc., OGE Energy Corp., Enogex Holdings LLC and CenterPoint Energy
             Field Services LP.

 99.1        Term Loan Facility dated as of May 1, 2013 by and among CenterPoint
             Energy Field Services LP and Citibank, N.A., as administrative agent,
             UBS Securities LLC, as syndication agent, JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A.
             and Wells Fargo Bank, National Association as co-documentation agents,
             and the several lenders thereto relating to a $1,050,000,000 3-year
             unsecured term loan facility.

 99.2        Revolving Credit Agreement dated as of May 1, 2013 by and among
             CenterPoint Energy Field Services LP and Citibank, N.A., as
             administrative agent, UBS Securities LLC, as syndication agent,
             JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. and Wells Fargo Bank, National Association,
             as co-documentation agents, the several lenders from time to time
             party thereto and the letter of credit issuers from time to time party
             thereto relating to a $1,400,000,000 5-year unsecured revolving credit
             facility.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Exactly as I thought.

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## OKCisOK4me

Gimme 20 years and I should be able to finish the above contract with an excess of 4 new skyscrapers...

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## tillyato

Sadly the above is the cliff notes version of what the agreements between Enogex and CenterPoint actually look like...

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## BigD Misey

So...you're sayin' theres a chance!!

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## OKCisOK4me

> So...you're sayin' theres a chance!!


Great movie...lmao

----------


## Steve

Message board version of reality: Hey, let's merge two companies and build a new corporate headquarters tower in downtown OKC. Cool. Announce it, design it, build it. Quick.
Real world reality: Take post 4015 (great work Bellaboo), extrapolate that by 100, mix in about two dozen lawyers, throw in some complicated real estate and title issues just for fun, spice it up with secret incentive negotiations, make it even more interesting by throwing in a couple of competing cities trying to steal the deal, and then sit back and patiently realize these deals are done when they are done.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

2014 basically.

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## Rover

> Message board version of reality: Hey, let's merge two companies and build a new corporate headquarters tower in downtown OKC. Cool. Announce it, design it, build it. Quick.
> Real world reality: Take post 4015 (great work Bellaboo), extrapolate that by 100, mix in about two dozen lawyers, throw in some complicated real estate and title issues just for fun, spice it up with secret incentive negotiations, make it even more interesting by throwing in a couple of competing cities trying to steal the deal, and then sit back and patiently realize these deals are done when they are done.


+1000

Steve, there is an old adage:  "No job is hard for those who don't have to do it".  I get amused by all the simplistic thinking on this board.  But then again, it is hard for people to understand things of which they have no specific training, knowledge or experience either in the tasks or in the magnitude.  People just don't know what they don't know.  Unfortunately, that doesn't keep them from claiming they do.  LOL.

----------


## Steve

> 2014 basically.


An announcement in 2014? Nah. The real world reality has been going on for quite some time now... I suspect it won't be much longer...

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## vaflyer

> Message board version of reality: Hey, let's merge two companies and build a new corporate headquarters tower in downtown OKC. Cool. Announce it, design it, build it. Quick.
> Real world reality: Take post 4015 (great work Bellaboo), extrapolate that by 100, mix in about two dozen lawyers, throw in some complicated real estate and title issues just for fun, spice it up with secret incentive negotiations, make it even more interesting by throwing in a couple of competing cities trying to steal the deal, and then sit back and patiently realize these deals are done when they are done.


Steve, thanks for the post. I can not wait to hear all of the details of this process when everything is finalized. Another book, maybe?

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## SharkSandwich

> An announcement in 2014? Nah. The real world reality has been going on for quite some time now... I suspect it won't be much longer...

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## Teo9969

> Message board version of reality: Hey, let's merge two companies and build a new corporate headquarters tower in downtown OKC. Cool. Announce it, design it, build it. Quick.
> Real world reality: Take post 4015 (great work Bellaboo), extrapolate that by 100, mix in about two dozen lawyers, throw in some complicated real estate and title issues just for fun, spice it up with secret incentive negotiations, make it even more interesting by throwing in a couple of competing cities trying to steal the deal, and then sit back and patiently realize these deals are done when they are done.


Any chance you can tell us which other cities are trying to steal this company? Or at least after the deal is over?

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## HangryHippo

Have we thwarted the attempts of the other two cities to steal or are they still in the running with us?

----------


## OKCRT

> Any chance you can tell us which other cities are trying to steal this company? Or at least after the deal is over?


Well 2 cities that are pretty obvious would be Dallas and WhoStun. Now you might even throw in Midland since they seem intent on on trying to be the "next" Texas city to pop up.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

> Well 2 cities that are pretty obvious would be Dallas and WhoStun. Now you might even throw in Midland since they seem intent on on trying to be the "next" Texas city to pop up.


I'd put money on Houston and Denver.

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## vaflyer

> I'd put money on Houston and Denver.


+1

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## OKCRT

> I'd put money on Houston and Denver.



Well OKC needs to do what it takes to get these Giants to come in. Just do whatever it takes......

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## Bellaboo

> I'd put money on Houston and Denver.


I wouldn't. You guys must be the ultimate pessimist or just bored to death. Go re-read post 2018 and 2024.....there's some evidence in both of those.

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## Teo9969

I think NWOKCGuy was just saying that he'd bet those are the competing cities, not that they will beat out OKC for the company...

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## dcsooner

> I wouldn't. You guys must be the ultimate pessimist or just bored to death. Go re-read post 2018 and 2024.....there's some evidence in both of those.


Regardless, the specter of competition here to fore has not been mentioned.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Regardless, the specter of competition here to fore has not been mentioned.


True, but some of these guys feel like it could go to another city at this point.

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## dcsooner

> True, but some of these guys feel like it could go to another city at this point.


Well, couldn't it?

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## Bellaboo

> Well, couldn't it?


I would not bet that it would be anywhere than OKC. I have a connection to a source who says we will not be disappointed.

----------


## Rover

> I would not bet that it would be anywhere than OKC. I have a connection to a source who says we will not be disappointed.


So, your source isn't worried?

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## Bellaboo

> So, your source isn't worried?


My source is not 100 %, but they are not worried. My source is the wife of an Enogex employee. She told me that he told her some announcement would be made by July. Let's put it this way, she said they were not moving.....

My source is also about 3 deep info too. so FWIW.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I wouldn't. You guys must be the ultimate pessimist or just bored to death. Go re-read post 2018 and 2024.....there's some evidence in both of those.


I went back and read those posts.  What evidence were you talking about?

----------


## HangryHippo

> So, your source isn't worried?


Bellaboo's source is Steve?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Bellaboo's source is Steve?


Not Steve, but I trust Steve and he's not worried. My source's husband is a corporate employee of Enogex for over 20 years.......let's stop right here before we all get in trouble.  haha

----------


## Bellaboo

> I went back and read those posts.  What evidence were you talking about?


Those posts are telling you they know something without being openly blatant about it......like reading between the lines.

----------


## Teo9969

Like I said awhile ago: If OKC is *not* getting this company, then we probably would be hearing that we are losing Enogex. There need not be any rumors/speculation as far as that goes. We *know* Enogex is the managing partner in this company. So either they move or the company comes here. There are zero other options. Well, I mean, I guess Option C is that this MLP never actually forms, but that seems ridiculous.

----------


## Bellaboo

My source explained it like this - 80% of the entire physical infrastructure of the new MLP is in Oklahoma. It's logical to be located near the source.

----------


## Spartan

> Well OKC needs to do what it takes to get these Giants to come in. Just do whatever it takes......


Were far from desperate and we have the lowest unemployment rate. No need to offer up a whiff of desperation for no reason. These talks are being handled by the best professionals in the biz. The OKC Chamber is one of the largest in the country and the chamber junta knows how to wine and dine up on the 54th floor. Anything dealing with the state legislature scares da crap outta me though..

----------


## NWOKCGuy

> Any chance you can tell us which other cities are trying to steal this company? Or at least after the deal is over?


When I mentioned Houston and Denver, I was answering this post, not saying we were losing to them.

----------


## Jeepnokc

I am finalizing the financing on my new building two blocks away.  My commercial banker included this in his email today: 

"In related news: I have it under good authority that another corporate tower will be named at the current Stage Center location sometime next week!  That certainly bodes well for the neighborhood!"

I pressed him further on whom and he responded "OG&E's midstream company".

I have no clue who is source is or how reliable it is...just the messenger/gossiper.

----------


## Pete

^

Very interesting.

Consistent with other rumors and I hope the timing is right, as it would be nice to get an official announcement.

----------


## Teo9969

Oh this place is going to be a mess if we don't have an announcement by the end of May...

Steve said "up to 90 days" in an address on the 3/27, which makes this day 50...sometime next week being ~day 60. Seems a little early considering how long things have been going on, but I guess it's reasonable.

Of course, if this happens, it will be a little bit easier to handle the Thunder not making the WCF.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Of course, if this happens, it will be a little bit easier to handle the Thunder not making the WCF.


Ha! Precisely.

----------


## db411

> My source explained it like this - 80% of the entire physical infrastructure of the new MLP is in Oklahoma. It's logical to be located near the source.


Not exactly.  As far as pipeline it’s more like 56%. According to third party datasets CenterPoint has 3650 miles in OK with Enogex having 8750 and CenterPoint has 9400 in other states and Enogex with about 275 in Texas (12400 in OK vs 9675 other).  This is 3rd party data so give or take 1000 miles or so in either direction but no way it’s close to 80%. From the slideshow, there are 8 gas plants in OK vs 3 in other states (72%) but when you consider capacity (1.1 in OK vs .8 in TX) its 58%.  There is storage and compression infrastructure to consider but there is not much to a storage well and I cannot imagine compression being that out of balance with the pipeline and gas plants the stations support.

It is true that OKC is more central to the facilities than Houston (even if it is not 80% of the infrastructure) but there is also a commercial side to the midstream business.  Look at where the producer customer base is located (by volume shown on slide 10): Encana – Denver, Shell – Houston, XTO – Ft Worth, Chesapeake  - OKC, Apache – Houston, QEP – Denver, Devon – OKC, Sampson – Tulsa, BHP – Houston, BP – Houston and just to be nice to OKC count Continental Resources in at #11.  Yes OKC has 3 of the top 11 but Devon and Chesapeake together are about equal to Shell and the top three (Encana, Shell, and XTO) are all from CenterPoint.  As far as the transportation side – the pipeline companies they deliver gas from/to – where are most of them based? Yes, Oneok and parts of Williams are in Tulsa but Houston is probably where you would want to have a strong presence. 

As far as being central to your pipeline system, look at a few of the major companies:
Kinder Morgan – Houston - http://www.kindermorgan.com/asset_ma...System_Map.pdf
DCP – Denver - https://www.dcpmidstream.com/Operati...acilities.aspx
Enbridge – Houston - http://www.enbridgeus.com/media/map.swf
HQ location does not seem to be a strong predictor of infrastructure location.

Do not forget CenterPoint has the majority of the interest in the company and just look at the EBITDA on the last slide of the investor PowerPoint, money talks. I would love to see OKC get the HQ but they have said they are going to at least maintain a presence in Houston and Shreveport so even if they do locate here it will not be as if the entire company will be based out of downtown. Aside from OGE/Enogex and all of us who want it here, the cards are not exactly in OKC's favor so it will definitely be worthy of celebrating if we do get the HQ.

Back to the skyscraper discussion, if/when the Stage Center site is redeveloped, where is the parking for 2000 cars going to go? Preftakes block is north, the new school is west, the park is east, is it going to be on Reno on the south portion of the Stage Center block? Or a tall narrow tower with the rest of the site a garage?

----------


## ljbab728

> Back to the skyscraper discussion, if/when the Stage Center site is redeveloped, where is the parking for 2000 cars going to go? Preftakes block is north, the new school is west, the park is east, is it going to be on Reno on the south portion of the Stage Center block? Or a tall narrow tower with the rest of the site a garage?


I understand your question but my thoughts are that anyone considering spending hundreds of millions on a new tower will likely take parking into consideration.  I'm sure that question will be answered.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Not exactly.  As far as pipeline it’s more like 56%. According to third party datasets CenterPoint has 3650 miles in OK with Enogex having 8750 and CenterPoint has 9400 in other states and Enogex with about 275 in Texas (12400 in OK vs 9675 other).  This is 3rd party data so give or take 1000 miles or so in either direction but no way it’s close to 80%. From the slideshow, there are 8 gas plants in OK vs 3 in other states (72%) but when you consider capacity (1.1 in OK vs .8 in TX) its 58%.  There is storage and compression infrastructure to consider but there is not much to a storage well and I cannot imagine compression being that out of balance with the pipeline and gas plants the stations support.
> 
> It is true that OKC is more central to the facilities than Houston (even if it is not 80% of the infrastructure) but there is also a commercial side to the midstream business.  Look at where the producer customer base is located (by volume shown on slide 10): Encana – Denver, Shell – Houston, XTO – Ft Worth, Chesapeake  - OKC, Apache – Houston, QEP – Denver, Devon – OKC, Sampson – Tulsa, BHP – Houston, BP – Houston and just to be nice to OKC count Continental Resources in at #11.  Yes OKC has 3 of the top 11 but Devon and Chesapeake together are about equal to Shell and the top three (Encana, Shell, and XTO) are all from CenterPoint.  As far as the transportation side – the pipeline companies they deliver gas from/to – where are most of them based? Yes, Oneok and parts of Williams are in Tulsa but Houston is probably where you would want to have a strong presence. 
> 
> As far as being central to your pipeline system, look at a few of the major companies:
> Kinder Morgan – Houston - http://www.kindermorgan.com/asset_ma...System_Map.pdf
> DCP – Denver - https://www.dcpmidstream.com/Operati...acilities.aspx
> Enbridge – Houston - http://www.enbridgeus.com/media/map.swf
> HQ location does not seem to be a strong predictor of infrastructure location.
> ...


Let's expand on this - if you take Oklahoma's border and extend it by 50 miles, then you probably, and this is just a guess, have 85 % of the infrastructure..... my source is a 25+ year employee in the Enogex corporate office.

Now parking - the city is building an 800 plus space garage just a short block away, and IIRC the Mystery Tower is possibly looking at the entire block. The site would be about the same size as Devons, and I believe their garage is in excess of 1500 spaces. Also, it's been mentioned that another is likely to be built just accross the street in the new civic center location......the bottom line, you can put structured parking just about anywhere.

----------


## SharkSandwich

I think that site is large enough for a building and parking garage.

Edit:  Now that I look at it a little closer, I'm not sure the site is big enough for both....

----------


## Pete

Remember, there is talk about taking the city-owned properties to the south of Stage Center, all the way to Reno.

Also, the city has proposed several large parking garages for that area.

----------


## Anonymous.

Headquarters relocation conference being held in Dallas this weekend. Look who is showing up on the list of attendees.




> The balance of the LiveXchange conference program will present comprehensive, practical and strategic information to help corporate executives better plan and manage their companies relocation or expansion projects.





> Executives will also meet one-on-one to discuss their projects with the economic development agencies from across the U.S. who are sponsoring the event:
> ...
> * Greater Houston Partnership/Centerpoint Energy (TX)
>  Greater Oklahoma City Chamber*
> ...


Business Facilities LiveXchange To Kick Off This Weekend

----------


## HangryHippo

> Headquarters relocation conference being held in Dallas this weekend. Look who is showing up on the list of attendees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Business Facilities LiveXchange To Kick Off This Weekend


I wonder if we're going to lose to Houston.  That would suck.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I wonder if we're going to lose to Houston.  That would suck.


Oh don't you know, CNP's midstream operation is coming here........

----------


## dcsooner

> Oh don't you know, CNP's midstream operation is coming here........


Steve's not worried

----------


## Just the facts

Don't read too much into that - here is the full list.

•AdvantageWest Economic Development Group(NC)
•Choose New Jersey, Inc.
•Clarksville-Montgomery County Industrial Development (TN)
•Greater Houston Partnership/Centerpoint Energy (TX)
•Greater Oklahoma City Chamber
•Hernando County Florida & Brooksville-Tampa Bay Regional Airport
•LocateSC
•Louisiana Department of Economic Development/AEP:SWEPCO
•North Carolina’s Northeast Commission
•Overland Park Economic Development Council (KS)
•Piedmont Triad Region of North Carolina
•Quad Cities First (IA)
•Regional Growth Partnership [Toledo] | JobsOhio
•Rio South Texas Economic Council
•Santee Cooper and Myrtle Beach Regional Economic Development Corporation (SC)
•Seymour-Jackson County/Harrison County, Indiana: South Central Indiana
•Tennessee Department of Economic & Community Development
•The Joplin Regional Partnership (MO)

Anything with Choose New Jersey has to be open to anyone  :Smile:

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Anything with Choose New Jersey has to be open to anyone



That's funny.  As far as parking......don't forget the NW corner of Walker and Reno.  The peacock restaurant is for sell and includes the parking lots on both sides which would make for a huge parking garage.  It could stretch all the way from Walker to Dewey and take the south side of the block

----------


## Just the facts

When I worked in Tampa the floors 2 thru 9 or our building were all parking.  It could hold a couple of hundred cars.  Several of the other downtown buildings have parking on the first 10 floors or so.  I can't think of any towers in downtown OKC that has their own parking within the tower itself (other than Leadership Sq).

----------


## Pete

> That's funny.  As far as parking......don't forget the NW corner of Walker and Reno.  The peacock restaurant is for sell and includes the parking lots on both sides which would make for a huge parking garage.  It could stretch all the way from Walker to Dewey and take the south side of the block


This is one of the sites the City has identified (Downtown Site 2):

----------


## mrokc777

Theres rumors of OG&E building a tower, so now that rumors of  Centerpoint and OG&E partnership building a tower would this mean two towers or one?

----------


## Teo9969

> Theres rumors of OG&E building a tower, so now that rumors of  Centerpoint and OG&E partnership building a tower would this mean two towers or one?


If I've read Pete's posts correctly, He's hearing OGE is snooping around, I believe, at the NW corner of RSKerr/Hudson (I think specifically, he's said "North of the Arts Museum"). That would make financial sense: half the block is surface parking, it's right by their current headquarters and (I assume) parking garage.

----------


## Bellaboo

> If I've read Pete's posts correctly, He's hearing OGE is snooping around, I believe, at the NW corner of RSKerr/Hudson (I think specifically, he's said "North of the Arts Museum"). That would make financial sense: half the block is surface parking, it's right by their current headquarters and (I assume) parking garage.


I kind of wonder if they wouldn't share the Stage Center site in one facility ? It would justify the large building rumor we've been hearing..

----------


## mrokc777

> If I've read Pete's posts correctly, He's hearing OGE is snooping around, I believe, at the NW corner of RSKerr/Hudson (I think specifically, he's said "North of the Arts Museum"). That would make financial sense: half the block is surface parking, it's right by their current headquarters and (I assume) parking garage.


.

 If  Centerpoint partnership with OG&E  were to build on the  stage center, would it make sense for OG&E to build next to them?  (I belive it was stated before of a possibility of two towers on the stage center)

----------


## mrokc777

> I kind of wonder if they wouldn't share the Stage Center site in one facility ? It would justify the large building rumor we've been hearing..


Maybe a supertall  :Big Grin:

----------


## CaptDave

From Steve's chat - Steve still not worried. It was stated two towers are possible....

----------


## Pete

Don't think OG&E would go on the Stage Center site for political reasons.  Also, it's a bit too high profile for a public utility.

I believe the midstream entity would take the SC site and OG&E would build elsewhere downtown.  Two completely separate projects.

----------


## hoya

Two projects, both on Hudson, would be really awesome. Would give us a great deal more density.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Don't think OG&E would go on the Stage Center site for political reasons.  Also, it's a bit too high profile for a public utility.
> 
> I believe the midstream entity would take the SC site and OG&E would build elsewhere downtown.  Two completely separate projects.


Are you still hearing that OG&E continues to sniff around?  What's the latest?

----------


## bchris02

Last fall, I heard OG&E wanted to build a tall, skinny tower taller than the Devon tower. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing that.

----------


## Bellaboo

From todays chat -


10:18 a.m. Steve, I've now heard from two separate, credible sources that we can expect an announcement within the next two weeks on the so-called mystery tower that has been plaguing the minds of internet forum luminaries for more than a year. What do you think?



Steve Lackmeyer - 10:18 a.m. I am not worried.

----------


## LakeEffect

> From todays chat -
> 
> 
> 10:18 a.m. Steve, I've now heard from two separate, credible sources that we can expect an announcement within the next two weeks on the so-called mystery tower that has been plaguing the minds of internet forum luminaries for more than a year. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer - 10:18 a.m. I am not worried.


I didn't see it mentioned in the thread. For what it's worth, the Mayor made some odd/interesting statements at the annual Mayor's Development Roundtable on Wednesday. He specifically asked his co-panelists during the roundtable about how to treat historical structures and what their recommended thresholds for demolition were. 

He made some other odd comments too, but that's for another thread.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I didn't see it mentioned in the thread. For what it's worth, the Mayor made some odd/interesting statements at the annual Mayor's Development Roundtable on Wednesday. He specifically asked his co-panelists during the roundtable about how to treat historical structures and what their recommended thresholds for demolition were. 
> 
> He made some other odd comments too, but that's for another thread.


Well, a rotting Stage Center should certainly be a candidate for demolition if a higher use project (Mystery Tower) comes along.

----------


## mrokc777

I just cant wait for an announcement, I hope too see the two possible mystery towers and the cc hotel go up all at the same time.

----------


## OKCRT

Boom Town! 5 towers in 5 years...

----------


## Bellaboo

> Boom Town! 5 towers in 5 years...


That's a little much in my opinion, but I think 3 would be reasonable in 5 years.

----------


## Just the facts

I don't know if 5 in 5 is a boomtown.  I drove thru downtown Orlando earlier this week and they have 6 cranes adding to their skyline.

----------


## catch22

I was in Denver last week and they had 4 or 5 tall developments. (Mid rise for them, high rise for us) under construction.

----------


## hoya

5 new skyscrapers in even 10 years would be phenomenal for us.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I was in Denver last week and they had 4 or 5 tall developments. (Mid rise for them, high rise for us) under construction.


Devon Tower 'towers' over Denver's tallest - about 140 feet taller. If the Mystery Tower comes in at the purported 40 floors, we'll have 2 towers taller than Denver's tallest.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I don't know if 5 in 5 is a boomtown.  I drove thru downtown Orlando earlier this week and they have 6 cranes adding to their skyline.


two years ago, counting the Health Science center, we had 9 cranes up at one time.

----------


## catch22

> Devon Tower 'towers' over Denver's tallest - about 140 feet taller. If the Mystery Tower comes in at the purported 40 floors, we'll have 2 towers taller than Denver's tallest.


I'd take Denver's downtown over ours. Height means nothing. They have about 20x more buildings and hundreds of millions of dollars of more development than us.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'd take Denver's downtown over ours. Height means nothing. They have about 20x more buildings and hundreds of millions of dollars of more development than us.


20 X, no, 5 or 6 X, yes.

----------


## Bellaboo

Denver overbuilt it's downtown in the early 80's. I remember 12 high rises going up at once. I also remember that they had to lease for 50 cents a sq foot just to get people in them....at one time (late 80's) it was like a ghost town downtown.

----------


## catch22

> 20 X, no, 5 or 6 X, yes.

----------


## Bellaboo

Put 5 vertical lines spaced evenly against that picture.....like I said 5 or 6 X.

----------


## hoya

Really only about 2 1/2 to 3 times as many.  Still a lot.  But I think we're hitting a big construction phase in OKC.  I'll bet in 10 years you would be amazed at what it looks like.

----------


## Teo9969

> Really only about 2 1/2 to 3 times as many.  Still a lot.  But I think we're hitting a big construction phase in OKC.  I'll bet in 10 years you would be amazed at what it looks like.


15 years*

Most things won't go up as quickly as Devon does, and hopefully more things are announced in 2017 - 2020 than are announced in 2013 - 2016.

----------


## HOT ROD

ya, I too gasped when someone said Denver was midrise what OKC would consider highrise. I was like, YOU do know OKC has a tower taller than anything in Denver. ....

I used to work in the #2 tallest Denver tower back in the day on the 45th floor. Good times, but Bella is correct that leases back then were dirt cheap and it was clear Denver overbuilt. I personally don't think Denver has an attractive downtown anymore, it seems like a bunch of messy buildings now with no clear focus or architectural effort (as a skyline). But sure, OKC could definitely take a few Denver towers to enlarge our CBD.

----------


## hoya

I think the most noticeable thing will be when Deep Deuce, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, Midtown, etc, all start to connect with one another.  Part of that will be the streetcar, but really as each establish their own identity, and then grow together, our entire perception of our downtown will change.  At the moment we have a few neat little areas but they are separated from one another.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I will be in Denver for ten days in July. Will be doing all kinds of stuff besides downtown, even out of town. I will have plenty of photos and video to do. I may even be moving there but I've been saying that for at least five years. 

Denver Vacation 2012 - Downtown Denver (June 24 2012) - a set on Flickr







http://vimeo.com/22867208

----------


## catch22

> ya, I too gasped when someone said Denver was midrise what OKC would consider highrise. I was like, YOU do know OKC has a tower taller than anything in Denver. ....
> 
> I used to work in the #2 tallest Denver tower back in the day on the 45th floor. Good times, but Bella is correct that leases back then were dirt cheap and it was clear Denver overbuilt. I personally don't think Denver has an attractive downtown anymore, it seems like a bunch of messy buildings now with no clear focus or architectural effort (as a skyline). But sure, OKC could definitely take a few Denver towers to enlarge our CBD.


Okay, by the facts then:

Oklahoma City has:

17 buildings taller than 252 feet:

Denver has:

32 buildings taller than 350 feet. (Their list stops at 350 feet)

To keep the list relative and since I don't feel like finding the rest of Denver's 250-350 foot tall buildings, we will use 350 feet:

Oklahoma City has:

6 buildings greater than 350 feet

Denver has:

32 buildings greater than 350 feet


A midrise in Denver would be a highrise for us. Just because we have one building taller than denver doesn't mean squat for relative building size. 

Denver has 7 buildings taller than Chase tower.

----------


## Bellaboo

Give it up catch22........... it's not 20 X...... more like 3 - 4 X....   LOL

----------


## catch22

> Give it up catch22........... it's not 20 X...... more like 3 - 4 X....   LOL


My point remains the same, Denver has a much more expansive skyline. Regardless if it does not have a tower taller than us, it has much more mass. My point remains the same, a mid rise in Denver would be a high rise for us.

----------


## Rover

Definition of mid rise or high rise is commonly accepted and not a localized definition.  Posting a new definition justification on a board doesn't change it, regardless of how stubborn or argumentative any poster may be.

----------


## zookeeper

Today's Sunday New York Times had a story on the front page about a boom in luxury towers in NY. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/ny...te-market.html Somebody mentioned just recently in this thread about how a tall skinny tower might be nice somewhere downtown. Check out this 84 story tower going up in NYC. They call it "slender".

"Intended to be the tallest residential building in the Western Hemisphere  a slender, 84-story tower on Park Avenue at 56th Street in Manhattan."

----------


## Spartan

Yeah the Great Recession is really taking its toll on luxury high-rise condos...

----------


## Spartan

> I will be in Denver for ten days in July. Will be doing all kinds of stuff besides downtown, even out of town. I will have plenty of photos and video to do. I may even be moving there but I've been saying that for at least five years. 
> 
> Denver Vacation 2012 - Downtown Denver (June 24 2012) - a set on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Will - Have you discovered Vine yet? You should really utilize that to show off your video footage. It breaks each segment up into easily-digestible 7 second bits and you can start-stop in edgy ways. I think that you and that medium would be a perfect match (whereas I've personally taken more to instagram for showing off my daily city pics).

----------


## Chicken In The Rough

There is no doubt that downtown Denver is currently booming. According to DenverInfill, there were over 4,200 residential units under construction within 1.5 miles of downtown as of March 2013. 

Downtown Denver Residential Boom: March 2013 Update  DenverInfill Blog

Driving around downtown, you will see at least 10 construction cranes. Construction in the Union Station area is impressive.

----------


## catch22

> There is no doubt that downtown Denver is currently booming. According to DenverInfill, there were over 4,200 residential units under construction within 1.5 miles of downtown as of March 2013. 
> 
> Downtown Denver Residential Boom: March 2013 Update  DenverInfill Blog
> 
> Driving around downtown, you will see at least 10 construction cranes. Construction in the Union Station area is impressive.


Exactly. Development in downtown OKC pales in comparison to what is happening in Denver. I've never seen so much construction before. Every corner it seems has a construction site. big projects too. Makes our Holiday Inn Express seem pretty amateur.

----------


## zookeeper

> Exactly. Development in downtown OKC pales in comparison to what is happening in Denver. I've never seen so much construction before. Every corner it seems has a construction site. big projects too. Makes our Holiday Inn Express seem pretty amateur.


Aren't we comparing apples and oranges though? Wouldn't Denver be expected to have a lot more activity?

The 2011 estimated population of Denver was *619,968* which ranks it as the 23rd most populous U.S. city.[12] The 10-county Denver-Aurora-Broomfield, CO Metropolitan Statistical Area had an estimated 2011 population of *2,599,504* and ranked as the 21st most populous U.S. metropolitan statistical area.[13] The 12-county Denver-Aurora-Boulder Combined Statistical Area had an estimated 2011 population of *3,157,520*, which ranks as the 16th most populous U.S. metropolitan area.[14] Denver is the center and the most populous city of the Front Range Urban Corridor, an oblong urban region stretching across 18 counties in two states with an estimated 2011 population of *4,423,936*.[9] *Denver is the most populous city within a 500-mile (800 km) radius and the second most populous city in the Mountain West and the Southwestern United States after Phoenix, Arizona.*
from Denver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## catch22

There's a common notion on this website that OKC is the only city with rapid downtown growth. Just correctly pointing out that we are not the only ones with explosive downtown growth, and to not take it for granted either.

----------


## bchris02

> There's a common notion on this website that OKC is the only city with rapid downtown growth. Just correctly pointing out that we are not the only ones with explosive downtown growth, and to not take it for granted either.


Agreed.  OKC's downtown growth is actually small potatoes compared to places like Austin, Nashville, and Charlotte.  The trend right now is downtown revitalization and its happening nationwide.  It's a great thing OKC is getting the growth and revitalization it is.

----------


## HOT ROD

not at all catch, we know other cities are developing as well. I just chimed in at your notion that a OKC would call a Denver midrise a highrise; I completely disagree with that as OKC has midrises and highrises that are true and the same as in Denver or anywhere else. I also pointed out to you that if you DID want to make that claim, said city should at least have a tower(s) that is taller than in OKC (like you probably could make the claim for Chicago, NY, etc); Denver doesn't have anything as tall as OKC and then you became defensive and pushy about their Denver's density.

The point is, we all know other cities have development (and surely cities larger than OKC likely would); but this thread is about OKC development and you can't fault people here being excited about OKC's downtown skyline and its renaissance.

----------


## hoya

This is the week of the rumored announcement...

It brings a smile to my face. 



Though I went to Deep Deuce this weekend and had a chance to really appreciate the growth that is going on in that neighborhood.  And that kind of development has a larger impact on the day to day life of more people than just another skyscraper.  If we can promote the growth of urban communities like that, it will really help establish OKC's identity as more than a commuter city.

----------


## Just the facts

I think what Catch22 is saying is that a 600' tower in OKC would be a dominant feature on the skyline.  In Denver it wouldn't rise out of the urban fabric.

----------


## catch22

> I think what Catch22 is saying is that a 600' tower in OKC would be a dominant feature on the skyline.  In Denver it wouldn't rise out of the urban fabric.


Precisely what I was getting at.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I think what Catch22 is saying is that a 600' tower in OKC would be a dominant feature on the skyline.  *In Denver it wouldn't rise out of the urban fabric.*


There are not that many over 600 in Denver, the 3 tallest are right around the 700 mark. After that their newest tops 600 but the roof is way shorter, it just has a spire. The majority of Denvers building are little different than OKC's.

If the new mystery tower tops 720, then it's easy to say that our last 2 towers will dominate everything in Denver at this time.

----------


## BDP

> I'd take Denver's downtown over ours. Height means nothing.


There is a lot of truth to that. It's much more important to do it right, than to do it tall. Height can be good from a density stand point, which can greatly increase demand for services in a smaller area, resulting in good urban infill. However, when no consideration is paid to the urban layout, the benefits of the density a tall building creates can be drastically marginalized. 

I was in Dallas last week and I think the victory park area is a good example of how taller doesn't necessarily make for a great urban experience. It's definitely a cool area with some nice high rise residential and hotels. However, despite the number of 20+ story high buildings, it hasn't really realized the benefits of a typical urban area and is less walkable than it should be given the density. There seemed to be relatively little foot traffic and while it has some restaurants and services, they were fairly spread out. By contrast North Bishop street is mostly one story shops and restaurants, but had a ton of foot traffic and a much more urban feel.

Even in Denver, the reasons to hang out or live in downtown are usually dense areas of shorter structures like in LoDo. Lots of downtown areas have several tall buildings, but it wasn't until the 90s when many cities began revitalizing downtown neighborhoods surrounding their CBDs and financial districts, often compromised of smaller structures, did they see a true resurgence in downtown activity and occupancy. 

I'm not saying that I don't want some cool new skyscrapers, but, in most cases, they are not the key to successful urban areas. Many major cities, including Denver, know all too well that you can have lots of tall buildings and still have a dead urban district. On the flip side, many successful and lively urban districts don't have a single building over 60' tall. Tall structures can obviously be done in a very urban way, but they are in no way the defining element of successful urban development. In fact, there is more evidence showing that height is irrelevant to the end.

----------


## zookeeper

> Though I went to Deep Deuce this weekend and had a chance to really appreciate the growth that is going on in that neighborhood.  And that kind of development has a larger impact on the day to day life of more people than just another skyscraper.  If we can promote the growth of urban communities like that, it will really help establish OKC's identity as more than a commuter city.


I think hoyasooner makes a very poignant observation above. We're all excited about the Mystery Tower, but the above really is true. It seems like much of the discussion has become, at least to me, juvenile. The old mine is bigger than yours playground talk. We're talking about buildings. The development of the urban neighborhoods are far more important than another skyscraper. I'm excited too, but I just think hoyasooner's point should make us stop and really think about what's important. We shouldn't be disappointed if there's only one tower and not two or three and be upset at how tall they are or are not. A vibrant urban neighborhood downtown, or two or three, would say much more about our city in real life than another skyscraper. Thanks for reminding us, hoya.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I think hoyasooner makes a very poignant observation above. We're all excited about the Mystery Tower, but the above really is true. It seems like much of the discussion has become, at least to me, juvenile. The old mine is bigger than yours playground talk. We're talking about buildings. The development of the urban neighborhoods are far more important than another skyscraper. I'm excited too, but I just think hoyasooner's point should make us stop and really think about what's important. We shouldn't be disappointed if there's only one tower and not two or three and be upset at how tall they are or are not. A vibrant urban neighborhood downtown, or two or three, would say much more about our city in real life than another skyscraper. Thanks for reminding us, hoya.


Hey, I want both !!!   lol

----------


## HangryHippo

> Hey, I want both !!!   lol


+1, haha.

----------


## hoya

> I think hoyasooner makes a very poignant observation above. We're all excited about the Mystery Tower, but the above really is true. It seems like much of the discussion has become, at least to me, juvenile. The old mine is bigger than yours playground talk. We're talking about buildings. The development of the urban neighborhoods are far more important than another skyscraper. I'm excited too, but I just think hoyasooner's point should make us stop and really think about what's important. We shouldn't be disappointed if there's only one tower and not two or three and be upset at how tall they are or are not. A vibrant urban neighborhood downtown, or two or three, would say much more about our city in real life than another skyscraper. Thanks for reminding us, hoya.


Thanks.  :Smile: 

It was the first time I'd been to Deep Deuce on a Saturday afternoon.  Usually I just drive through it on the way home, admire new construction, and that's it.  This time I stopped at Native Roots just to check it out.  It was fairly busy, and the hippie guy behind the counter was very friendly.  It was a much different envirnoment than my local grocery store, with the variety of people who were coming in and out and all the activity on the street.  I was quite impressed.  And they have some of the best bacon I've ever eaten.

----------


## s.hoff

Maybe this is too soon...but assuming there was going to be an announcement this week, do you think the weather events of the week will cause the announcement to be delayed? Praying for all those affected.

----------


## Spartan

> Aren't we comparing apples and oranges though? Wouldn't Denver be expected to have a lot more activity?
> 
> The 2011 estimated population of Denver was *619,968* which ranks it as the 23rd most populous U.S. city.[12] The 10-county Denver-Aurora-Broomfield, CO Metropolitan Statistical Area had an estimated 2011 population of *2,599,504* and ranked as the 21st most populous U.S. metropolitan statistical area.[13] The 12-county Denver-Aurora-Boulder Combined Statistical Area had an estimated 2011 population of *3,157,520*, which ranks as the 16th most populous U.S. metropolitan area.[14] Denver is the center and the most populous city of the Front Range Urban Corridor, an oblong urban region stretching across 18 counties in two states with an estimated 2011 population of *4,423,936*.[9] *Denver is the most populous city within a 500-mile (800 km) radius and the second most populous city in the Mountain West and the Southwestern United States after Phoenix, Arizona.*
> from Denver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


We also know that OKC's downtown boom is being greatly hindered by A, uncertainty, and B, wrongheaded decisions. IF we can make smarter, more strategic plans AND once the uncertainty of huge pending projects is lifted, I would expect us to be within a reasonable scale of that.

A skyline like the Big D isn't going to spring up overnight. But people like bchris need to view our downtown boom within the context of our recent history. There are still so many moving parts. Denver has one of the nation's most comprehensive LRT systems. We are still fighting to ensure that our first phase of streetcar actually gets done.

If you want to see Denver-type downtown development, you need to get behind the streetcar right now. It's as simple as that, and that's the difference that we can make together.

----------


## okcpulse

Very much agree with Spartan in his observation of downtown.  I explain this to anyone who I show around downtown.

----------


## Spartan

For okcpulse and I to agree on something, that must mean we are on to something ;P

----------


## edcrunk

With the way trends are goin... I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing some midrise towers in Midtown in the late teens. There's so many spots available where Downtown ends and Midtown begins.

----------


## Just the facts

The thing about the streetcar, and regional rail, is that it changes the economics because parking doesn't have to be provided.  It isn't just "stealing" developments from the suburbs, it fundamentally changes the rules.

----------


## HangryHippo

It'd be cool if they announced something. I need a little pick me up this week.

----------


## Bellaboo

My source says some kind of announcement around the first of July.

----------


## dankrutka

> My source says some kind of announcement around the first of July.


And it is stretched out further... On July 7th we'll hear October 3rd.  :Wink:

----------


## Bellaboo

I asked my source again today and she said she has heard nothing from her husband..... all she knows is they were to hear some details of the merger around the first of July....you would think more info would be floating around.

----------


## Spartan

Yeah so it's almost June.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Why oh why did I open this thread...

----------


## Spartan

Well it's still more promising than the AICM thread

----------


## metro

> Why oh why did I open this thread...


This

----------


## Bellaboo

> This


Because it's just this  -  ( speculation, news and ideas)

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Because it's just this  -  ( speculation, news and ideas)


I know, I know.  I'm not the only one that's guilty of opening this thread, but it's like the title of this thread should be "Beware of Impending Derail..."  lol.

----------


## OKCNDN

> I know, I know.  I'm not the only one that's guilty of opening this thread, but it's like the title of this thread should be "Beware of Impending Derail..."  lol.


Or "Go ahead, get your hopes up"

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Or "Go ahead, get your hopes up"


Haha

----------


## Mississippi Blues

Not exactly "Mystery Tower" related, but in yesterday's chat Steve said to expect more mid-rise residential towers in the next few years.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Did anyone ask how many stories mid-rise is in the eyes of Oklahoma developers planners and architects?

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Did anyone ask how many stories mid-rise is in the eyes of Oklahoma developers planners and architects?


I don't know what Oklahoma developers, planners, and architects would say, but Steve said under 20 stories.

----------


## Rover

> Did anyone ask how many stories mid-rise is in the eyes of Oklahoma developers planners and architects?


In most places, >4 to about 12-15 is considered mid-rise.  But, it isn't an absolute.  >4 shouldn't be stick built, so is another category, but the top end is subjective and often a matter of local perspective.  To me, in OKC, 20 would be a high rise.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I was thinking 25+, but yeah, I think if they're developed closer to the core then taller is better...if away from the core, infill is better.

----------


## G.Walker

I am not worried.

----------


## OKCRT

> I am not worried.


Me either.....Towers are getting ready to shoot up like daisies

----------


## coov23

He said they would be 20 and under.

----------


## OKCRT

> He said they would be 20 and under.


A bunch of 20 stories and under and 5 biguns will do for now... :Big Grin:

----------


## hoya

Yeah, a bunch of 15-20 story buildings on the edges of the C2S park will go a hell of a long way to improving the appearance of our downtown.  Add to that the new MLP tower on the Stage Center site at 800-900 feet tall (Steve mentioned that one of them would be "transformational" to the city skyline), a 500 foot tall OG&E tower on Hudson and Robert S Kerr, a residential high rise and a convention hotel high rise, and we'll be in business.

----------


## GoThunder

> Yeah, a bunch of 15-20 story buildings on the edges of the C2S park will go a hell of a long way to improving the appearance of our downtown.  Add to that the new MLP tower on the Stage Center site at 800-900 feet tall (Steve mentioned that one of them would be "transformational" to the city skyline), a 500 foot tall OG&E tower on Hudson and Robert S Kerr, a residential high rise and a convention hotel high rise, and we'll be in business.


Sounds great. The question is.... "when?"

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Sounds great. The question is.... "when?"


Tomorrow....three years from now.

----------


## Harvey Hudson

Do we win a prize for announcing the correct business and its location?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Do we win a prize for announcing the correct business and its location?


You will win the prize for announcing the date of the announcement........!

----------


## dankrutka

> Do we win a prize for announcing the correct business and its location?


Yes. Sid will buy you a drink at Skinny Slim's... if you buy him one first.

----------


## bchris02

The Mystery tower will not be a second Devon tower, so we can scratch that one off the rumor list.

No second Devon Tower, company says in internal memo | News OK

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> The Mystery tower will not be a second Devon tower, so we can scratch that one off the rumor list.
> 
> No second Devon Tower, company says in internal memo | News OK


See post #11375 by Pete at 11:04am yesterday:

Devon Energy Center (Devon Tower) - OKCTalk

----------


## Pete

I'm very sure that article came directly from reading this site.

That's completely fine -- Brianna and Steve and I stay in close contact and there is great mutual benefit -- but it also should be said this happens fairly often without any credit to OKCTalk.

----------


## AP

> I'm very sure that article came directly from reading this site.
> 
> That's completely fine -- Brianna and Steve and I stay in close contact and there is great mutual benefit -- but it also should be said this happens fairly often without any credit to OKCTalk.


I wondered about that. I've noticed that articles pop up a couple hours after I read it on OKCTalk. It seems a little hypocritical for a journalist not to cite their source. Then again, maybe OKCTalk was never the source and it was just a coincidence.

----------


## Pete

I don't expect them to cite us as a source every time they pick up on something here then go get / confirm information.  Or, for that matter, when I write or call them and share something.

But it would be nice to show us the same courtesy I've always shown them:  To advocate for their work, promote them whenever possible, express great respect and to give credit where credit is due.

Steve does that here to some extent but not in his articles, which have a much broader audience.  At the same time, he's taken some pretty big swipes at OKCTalk in his chats and blog, and I'm not referring to just the latest incident that has been discussed and led to his at least temporary hiatus from posting here.

Ironic, given his chats are about 90% driven by OKCTalk regulars.  And no doubt there is a lot of overlap with his blog visitors as well.


BTW, there is no way to know if this particular article was instigated by me posting the Devon internal memo, but I'd bet it was.

And even if it wasn't, I'm speaking in broader terms here because there are many times where I have provided direct information.

----------


## Jim Kyle

Pete, you have to remember that they are probably constrained by company policy. Back when I was one of the handful of staff writers for the Oklahoman, that policy was (to quote my city editor, the late Chan Guffey) "It isn't news until we print it" and by extension, that meant absolutely no citation of other media as sources... Dunno if it's still the same today, almost 60 years later, but I'd not be amazed to learn that it is.

----------


## Pete

At some point -- and it may be soon -- I want to start an entire separate conversation on this topic.

There is much to be said and discussed on the broader subject of traditional vs. new media and the important roles they both play.


As I've stated emphatically many, many times:  I'm a huge advocate for the Oklahoman and traditional reporting.

But what we do here is very valuable as well and I probably need to do a better job of taking credit for the site and our entire on-line community.

----------


## jn1780

Well, to be fair the source was the Devon Intranet which is available to all Devon employees. I would find it hard to believe she and Steve dont have at least one or two sources thats keeps them informed of what goes on in the company. At least whats going on openly.

Not to say they havent looked on here for leads before.

----------


## Pete

> Well, to be fair the source was the Devon Intranet which is available to all Devon employees. I would find it hard to believe she and Steve dont have at least one or two sources thats keeps them informed of what goes on in the company. At least whats going on openly.
> 
> Not to say they havent looked on here for leads before.


There is a big difference between getting confirmation once something is posted here versus an insider sending them something at the outset.  I don't think the latter happens very often, if at all.  They do have the ability to call official spokespeople for Devon and the like and they will almost always respond.  But that's only after the cat is out of the bag.

And there was a recent incident where I posted an internal communication and was contacted by an Oklahoman reporter asking me to help verify the source.  So clearly, this site was the source for the primary information and they asked ME for a contact to confirm.  I never reveal sources, which is why so many share with me and the site.  In the end, the Oklahoman either found another source to confirm or felt confident enough in the information to go with the story.


But again, I'm not talking just about this story or even a few of them.  There have been many times where I have sent them direct information and they have never once mentioned OKCTalk in any of their mainstream articles.

That's fine and dandy, but I did want to point out that this site does deserve credit, even if we are never mentioned by reporters.

----------


## Pete

Keep in mind that one of the greatest benefits of this site is we have hundreds / thousands of people on the inside and/or that know things first hand, and they can either post anonymously or forward something to me.

No exaggeration, I have received hundreds of messages from those that don't want to post something directly, even with an anonymous screen name.  I can assure you these people are not contacting the Oklahoman.


Also, it's not that difficult to tell when someone really knows what they are talking about.  We've been out front on lots of stories and haven't been wrong yet.

It's true we don't have to get multiple confirmations or run the same risks as traditional media, but that's part of the beauty of OKCTalk and why it's such a great compliment to the Oklahoman.

----------


## king183

> At some point -- and it may be soon -- I want to start an entire separate conversation on this topic.
> 
> There is much to be said and discussed on the broader subject of traditional vs. new media and the important roles they both play.
> 
> 
> As I've stated emphatically many, many times:  I'm a huge advocate for the Oklahoman and traditional reporting.
> 
> But what we do here is very valuable as well and I probably need to do a better job of taking credit for the site and our entire on-line community.


I agree--start asserting credit.  I get as much of, if not more of, my news about these developments from OKCTalk as I do The Oklahoman.  I remember "breaking" a minor development story on here a year ago and an Oklahoman reporter insisted I was wrong (because that reporter hadn't kept up with the story), even though I had first-hand, direct knowledge of the development.  A couple weeks later that same reporter printed a story confirming everything we discussed/posted at OKCTalk because that reporter followed up with their sources to check into the claims we were making and found them to be correct.

----------


## Pete

king, you are one of those here that have provided a good deal of advanced information and it's all proven out.

We actually have a lot that fit this category, although many prefer that I post on their behalf.


If I wasn't so careful about revealing sources, you'd all be amazed at who frequents this site and shares information.

Like any internet site, we have some crackpots but that in no way diminishes all the fantastic stuff that gets posted here.  It's really not hard to get past the fluff and those that lack credibility to get the firm information.


Way too easy for traditional journalists to dismiss things like OKCTalk by pointing out the bad in an attempt to completely discredit the good.

----------


## Praedura

> ...Like any internet site, we have some crackpots...


Hey, I resemble that remark!  :Wink:

----------


## jccouger

I don't post much, but you regular posters keep me coming back here daily with your info and I wish yall got more credit for it. Nobody loves OKC more then you guys and I know multiple people who never post here that love this site! OKCTalk is the GO-TO news source for everything OKC related, no news station or paper has anything on the stuff that is posted here. Don't get discouraged, you all are loved for the work and knowledge you all provide.

----------


## Pete

> I don't post much, but you regular posters keep me coming back here daily with your info and I wish yall got more credit for it. Nobody loves OKC more then you guys and I know multiple people who never post here that love this site! OKCTalk is the GO-TO news source for everything OKC related, no news station or paper has anything on the stuff that is posted here. Don't get discouraged, you all are loved for the work and knowledge you all provide.


Thanks so much.  Made my day!


I try not to be overly sensitive as this is the Internet after all, but I do take pride in what has been built here, especially since it's in aid of helping Oklahoma City be a better community.

And obviously, I've personally put a lot of blood, sweat and money into this site and like to think it's a pretty awesome resource.  Far from perfect to be sure, but for a message board even the bad stuff is pretty darn minimal.


I should do a better job of documenting and promoting all the great things that get posted here and how OKC has benefited as a result.  It's getting to be a pretty long list.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Pete, I heavily agree with all of your statements. When I saw the article, I was almost certain that OkcTalk was going to be mentioned in it, and nothing. :/

----------


## HangryHippo

Pete, are you still hearing anything about mystery tower possibilities from other sources/companies?  Anything you can share with us?

----------


## Pete

Still think there is going to be an announcement regarding the Stage Center site in the next couple of months.

Wouldn't be surprised to hear something about a new OG&E HQ before the end of the year, too.


We know Devon, Continental and SandRidge are all out of the running for the time being.

Still suspect the Stage Center site will be for the new OG&E/Enogex entity, which will be completely separate from the OG&E HQ.

----------


## MikeLucky

I am a classically trained journalist and an Okie down to my core.  I have lived in different places, but now I'm in Oklahoma and I'm doing to die here.  The issues of OKC civic development and civic pride are very, very important to me.

Having said all that...  I will also say that this forum is my #1 go-to spot for anything regarding these very topics.  I don't go to the newspaper and I don't go to the local news.  For discerning citizens that have their eyes open, the newspaper and other local news outlets are tantamount to snail mail.  While I'm not saying they are obsolete or unnecessary, the ways they are required to do business has shackled them in many ways.  And, in response to this you have seen those folks often look for creative ways to gain some ground back.  I can't blame Steve or any other reporter/journalist for using this forum as a way to try to stay a step ahead of their competitors...  However, it only highlights the painfully obvious fact that in many ways they are attached to an industry that is behind the 8-ball, if not already on the clock.

We definitely live in a world with a sense of "new media."  Unfortunately any yahoo with a twitter account and even just a glimmer of knowledge of Wordpress can present himself/herself to the world as a "news outlet."  And, while this group of people should at least be universally discounted and categorized as non-entities... this site and the work Pete does should not be viewed anywhere near the same stratosphere.  In my eyes what we have here is a valuable resource for folks that care about OKC and its future.

Keep doing what you are doing!

----------


## metro

> I'm very sure that article came directly from reading this site.
> 
> That's completely fine -- Brianna and Steve and I stay in close contact and there is great mutual benefit -- but it also should be said this happens fairly often without any credit to OKCTalk.





> I wondered about that. I've noticed that articles pop up a couple hours after I read it on OKCTalk. It seems a little hypocritical for a journalist not to cite their source. Then again, maybe OKCTalk was never the source and it was just a coincidence.


I'm sure sometimes it's coincidence, but I know certain journalists I've tipped off at Oklahoman on breaking news, and they didn't cite me (not that I care much), but I know the Oklahoman is very bad about citing sources. I'm sure they view it as a "threat" to their "credibility".

----------


## Harvey Hudson

> Umm, do you know something the rest of us don't know?


Sid, I always know something....its my job

----------


## AP

> Sid, I always know something....its my job


Please tell, please tell

----------


## Bellaboo

> Sid, I always know something....its my job


I'm sure you can't say......but how 'bout a clue or two ?

----------


## Spartan

> Still think there is going to be an announcement regarding the Stage Center site in the next couple of months.
> 
> Wouldn't be surprised to hear something about a new OG&E HQ before the end of the year, too.
> 
> 
> We know Devon, Continental and SandRidge are all out of the running for the time being.
> 
> Still suspect the Stage Center site will be for the new OG&E/Enogex entity, which will be completely separate from the OG&E HQ.


Then it doesn't sound like whatever goes onto the Stage Center site will be significant enough to justify demolition of an AIA gold theater venue. OG+E needs two large skyscrapers like SR needed its corporate campus vision. Something's gotta give.

This whole OKC skyscraper speculation thing was a bubble. Now that the bubble has simmered down, perhaps we can enjoy another era of reasonable land use and downtown development vision.

----------


## SOONER8693

> Then it doesn't sound like whatever goes onto the Stage Center site will be significant enough to justify demolition of an AIA gold theater venue. OG+E needs two large skyscrapers like SR needed its corporate campus vision. Something's gotta give.
> 
> This whole OKC skyscraper speculation thing was a bubble. Now that the bubble has simmered down, perhaps we can enjoy another era of reasonable land use and downtown development vision.


Buzz Killington.

----------


## Pete

The one for the Stage Center site will not be for OG&E -- this will be a completely separate, free-standing entity.

Think Devon, not OG&E.

----------


## Rover

> Then it doesn't sound like whatever goes onto the Stage Center site will be significant enough to justify demolition of an AIA gold theater venue. OG+E needs two large skyscrapers like SR needed its corporate campus vision. Something's gotta give.
> 
> This whole OKC skyscraper speculation thing was a bubble. Now that the bubble has simmered down, perhaps we can enjoy another era of reasonable land use and downtown development vision.


So you are saying the cc site may be affordable after all and maybe there isn't such a long list of developers bidding on it?

----------


## jedicurt

> This whole OKC skyscraper speculation thing was a bubble. Now that the bubble has simmered down, perhaps we can enjoy another era of reasonable land use and downtown development vision.


perhaps you remember a time i don't... when was the era or reasonable land use and downtown development vision?  the 1930's?

----------


## hoya

New Devon MLP?

Devon Energy launching new publicly traded firm | News OK

Maybe Devon itself isn't building a new tower, but what about Devon Jr?

----------


## Pete

Yeah, if and when they are really out of space in their tower it would make sense that this somewhat independent entity could be moved across the street.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yeah, if and when they are really out of space in their tower it would make sense that this somewhat independent entity could be moved across the street.


I've always thought SandRidge had plans to spin off their Midstream into an MLP and build at the EKG site, when we found out that it was bought for an affiliate of SD.  A lot of tax advantage for the MLP's.

----------


## HangryHippo

I know they're out of the mystery for now, but does Continental begin to look at new digs again once this divorce issue is settled for Mr. Hamm?

----------


## Pete

> I know they're out of the mystery for now, but does Continental begin to look at new digs again once this divorce issue is settled for Mr. Hamm?


They have to be looking at options once they run out of space, which is going to happen in the near future given their growth and goals.

I believe they were interested in the Stage Center site but the timing wasn't right.

----------


## G.Walker

> New Devon MLP?
> 
> Devon Energy launching new publicly traded firm | News OK
> 
> Maybe Devon itself isn't building a new tower, but what about Devon Jr?


I don't know, there has been a lot smoke surrounding Devon this week. With the announcement of receiving $67M in incentives from the state to create 989 jobs over the next 10 years, to the internal memo stating no new tower is being built, to now this new MLP being launched, something is cookin', and it ain't grits, lol.

----------


## Pete

Hold onto your hats because I have some new and very solid information...


I'm told that the Stage Center deal is done but pending the release of the easement of what was California street.

This probably means what we suspected all along:  That entire block will be redeveloped all the way to Reno (see graphic below).

I'm also told that as soon as this issue is resolved, there will be an almost immediate announcement of a new tower, and that it will be for a local company which will be consolidating it's operations to that site, ala Devon.  Don't know the company but there are only a few that fit the profile:  MidFirst and OG&E being my best guesses.


There is also a second tower very much in progress and that will involve bringing in jobs from out of state.  I suspect this is the new Enogex entity, but can't be sure.  Also not sure if this would go on this same block or elsewhere.


However, it seems one tower announcement for the Stage Center site is imminent and another tower could be revealed before the end of the year.

----------


## BoulderSooner

thanks

----------


## Pete

By the way, Steve commented on the recent Devon internal memo that emphatically stated they don't have any current plans to build a new tower...

Said that's pretty much what they were saying right up until they announced their HQ.

I don't think they are involved in either one of these towers, other than as a recruiter.  But you can bet they will eventually be building again downtown, and maybe not too far into the future.

----------


## Praedura

> Hold onto your hats because I have some new and very solid information...


I don't wear a hat, so I held onto something else.

----------


## Praedura

> Hold onto your hats because I have some new and very solid information...


Like is not a strong enough term for my reaction to that post. We need a PASSIONATELY LOVE button!

----------


## jccouger

Also asked about Devon, Steve said "I'm not worried". A phrase he has used continuously throughout the questions regarding the "mystery tower". I may be reading too much in to that, but with the email Devon sent out and Steve's comments I believe a new Devon tower announcement is coming.

----------


## HangryHippo

I'm as giddy as a kid on Christmas morning!  Thanks, Pete!

When will that easement be released?  Any insight?

----------


## Praedura

Ok, I take away two major things from Pete's post:

1) the phrase "very solid information"
2) two towers mentioned

----------


## Pete

The bus station is getting very close to closing down and that will leave almost the entire Preftakes block not only dark, but in very sad shape.

We know Devon is behind all those purchases (well, 99% sure) and there is no way they are going to let that block continue to rot with all this big new construction happening on all sides.

Very exciting to think how that area of downtown is going to look in about 5 years.

----------


## HangryHippo

If it could somehow turn out that OG&E or MidFirst built something downtown, then that means in 10 years we could potentially have new digs for Devon's new project, Continental, MidFirst, OG&E, and an out of state firm.  We'd start to have a damn fine looking skyline with those additions.

----------


## zookeeper

I thought it was almost a given that the next tower announcement would be for the new Centerpoint/Enogex company at the Stage Center site. Have things changed?

----------


## CaptDave

> I don't wear a hat, so I held onto something else.


TMI!!  :Wink:

----------


## Bellaboo

> I thought it was almost a given that the next tower announcement would be for the new Centerpoint/Enogex company at the Stage Center site. Have things changed?


Back in March, Steve said he was having a hard time with knowing who was going to end up at the SC site, but that it was a huge project involving hundreds of millions.

I think we'll all find out soon.

----------


## king183

> Hold onto your hats because I have some new and very solid information...
> 
> 
> I'm told that the Stage Center deal is done but pending the release of the easement of what was California street.
> 
> This probably means what we suspected all along:  That entire block will be redeveloped all the way to Reno (see graphic below).
> 
> I'm also told that as soon as this issue is resolved, there will be an almost immediate announcement of a new tower, and that it will be for a local company which will be consolidating it's operations to that site, ala Devon.  Don't know the company but there are only a few that fit the profile:  MidFirst and OG&E being my best guesses.
> 
> ...


Pete and OKCTalk does it again.  Great job and great information.

I remember when this discussion first started, a source who was then at the OKC Chamber and involved in incentive negotiations told me the tower (at this point it was thought only one tower was a possibility in the near term) would be a financial company and so we thought it was Midfirst or American Fidelity.  We know it's not AF and I can't recall, but I thought we were able to rule out Midfirst after a while--is that right?  

So based on the information Pete and others have been able to get, it sounds like the most likely candidate is OGE for one of them.

----------


## OKCDrummer77

> Hold onto your hats because I have some new and very solid information...


"I can feel it coming in the air tonight.  Hold on.
And I've been waiting for this moment for all my life.  Hold on."

----------


## lasomeday

With all these jobs downtown, hopefully a new residential tower will happen. Austin didn't have near as many jobs downtown.... besides that little college.... and they had res towers emerge.

I feel that if our state gov can get us better incentives then OKC could be the next Austin, but of course better!

I am so excited!  We need some good news after all the tornados!  This will show how strong we are!

I really hope it is Midfirst building downtown!  I would love people to see that we are more than just natural gas and oil companies.

----------


## jedicurt

I have reason to believe after making a phone call regarding Pete's post, that it is "probably" not MidFirst.  my source said that they are not aware, and is in the position that they would be aware before something was announced.  They couldn't rule out the possibility of something eventually getting announced, and said that they wouldn't confirm, but couldn't deny that there are many rumors about MidFirst still looking after losing out on the OPUBCO land.   So if an announcement is coming that is imminent, then my guess would be not them.

----------


## Anonymous.

Cool, will keep an eye out for info.

----------


## Pete

The reason we all cooled off on MidFirst is because of the big changes at Chesapeake.

For a while, Aubrey & Co. really wanted to acquire all the MidFirst/Midland property along I-44 so CHK could have that entire contiguous area.  But with Chesapeake now in selling mode, we started to hear that Mid* might be buying the former Grand Park buildings *from* CHK to provide for their own expansion.  They are bursting at the seams in their two I-44 buildings, have people at Shepherd Mall, etc.

So, maybe this is back on.  I know they took a hard run at the OPUBCO properties but that was also before things changed drastically at Chesapeake.


OG&E had hired a national real estate consultancy to help them find a new location downtown, and that search has been going on for a while.  However, it was my understanding they didn't want to get involved at Stage Center because it was too high profile and controversial.  I have a hard time believing that anything has changed, other than maybe wanting to combine forces with the new, yet separate, mid-stream company.

----------


## Pete

Also, I just got some more information on the Devon situation...

I'm told that all the Houston employees have already made the move to OKC and that any open positions created in this transition have been filled.  So, even with this consolidation there is still a decent amount of space in Devon Tower.

BUT...

The formation of the new independent mid-stream entity will almost require them to separate that group from the rest of their employees, which almost certainly means moving them out of Devon Tower.  They may do this sooner rather than later, once that company gets rolling.

There are about 3 floors of employees devoted to these operations now, but it's expected to grow rapidly.  So, don't be surprised if you see construction on the Preftakes block just for them in the next few years, and at the same time making more room in Devon Tower for the main company's growth.


Having said all that, Devon is a very conservative company so don't expect any big movements soon.

----------


## hoya

The real question in all of this is... what is going to happen to La Luna?

I'm not sure I can do without so-so Mexican food.

----------


## HangryHippo

> The real question in all of this is... what is going to happen to La Luna?
> 
> I'm not sure I can do without so-so Mexican food.


HAHA, post of the day.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I have reason to believe after making a phone call regarding Pete's post, that it is "probably" not MidFirst.  my source said that they are not aware, and is in the position that they would be aware before something was announced.  They couldn't rule out the possibility of something eventually getting announced, and said that they wouldn't confirm, but couldn't deny that there are many rumors about MidFirst still looking after losing out on the OPUBCO land.   So if an announcement is coming that is imminent, then my guess would be not them.


Hmm...  Pete said that OG&E wouldn't want to get involved with this site because of the negative press it's probably going to generate and your source is indicating it's most likely not MidFirst.  Who else is big enough around town that they'd need to consolidate their employees here and has the money to do it?

----------


## jedicurt

> Hmm...  Pete said that OG&E wouldn't want to get involved with this site because of the negative press it's probably going to generate and your source is indicating it's most likely not MidFirst.  Who else is big enough around town that they'd need to consolidate their employees here and has the money to do it?


I don't know. that is what i'm trying to figure out as well.  

And i can't say 100% that it isn't MidFirst.  I just know that my source would be "in the know" before an announcement, and was very much involved in the dealing to try and get the OPUBCO land.  So i have no reason to question them now.  Just from my phone call a bit ago, i have to conclude that they are not the ones building here, but they are still looking to build somewhere downtown.

Is this Continental?

----------


## HangryHippo

> I don't know. that is what i'm trying to figure out as well.  
> 
> And i can't say 100% that it isn't MidFirst.  I just know that my source would be "in the know" before an announcement, and was very much involved in the dealing to try and get the OPUBCO land.  So i have no reason to question them now.  Just from my phone call a bit ago, i have to conclude that they are not the ones building here, but they are still looking to build somewhere downtown.
> 
> Is this Continental?


It surely could be.  It seemed the timing was off given Hamm's divorce deal and a couple other things, but maybe it wasn't that off...  I was really hoping for something other than an oil/gas company just to throw something else into the mix, but I'll take whoever is dealing!

----------


## lasomeday

> I don't know. that is what i'm trying to figure out as well.  
> 
> And i can't say 100% that it isn't MidFirst.  I just know that my source would be "in the know" before an announcement, and was very much involved in the dealing to try and get the OPUBCO land.  So i have no reason to question them now.  Just from my phone call a bit ago, i have to conclude that they are not the ones building here, but they are still looking to build somewhere downtown.
> 
> Is this Continental?


Its not Continental....  My inside source I talked to said NO!

----------


## G.Walker

I will go out on a limb and say both towers will be on the Stage Center site all the way to Reno Ave. I would say that those towers would be from OG&E and their new MLP, just makes logical sense for them to be next to each other, hence why they need the extra land to accomodate two towers and parking garages.

----------


## king183

What is required for an easement to be released? Is it a long or complicated process?

----------


## cagoklahoma

This is the type of news that could lead to a major erection…of a new tower! 
Come on! The definition of an erection is “The act of erecting.” Or “something erected, as in a building.” Geeze, you perves. 
 :Tongue:

----------


## jedicurt

> It surely could be.  It seemed the timing was off given Hamm's divorce deal and a couple other things, but maybe it wasn't that off...  I was really hoping for something other than an oil/gas company just to throw something else into the mix, but I'll take whoever is dealing!


I'm really hoping for something else as well.   But on the bright side.  I hadn't talked to my source for a few months and last time i had talked with them, they said that consolidation of offices had kinda died down with Chesapeake not actively pursuing their buildings, but this time they made it pretty clear that while they "wouldn't" confirm that MidFirst was looking, they also "Couldn't" Deny the rumors that they are looking.  So this gives me hope that MidFirst is up to something, and hopefully it will happen soon!  I'd still really love to see them at 4th and EKG

----------


## HangryHippo

> This is the type of news that could lead to a major erection…of a new tower! 
> Come on! The definition of an erection is “The act of erecting.” Or “something erected, as in a building.” Geeze, you perves.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I'm really hoping for something else as well.   But on the bright side.  I hadn't talked to my source for a few months and last time i had talked with them, they said that consolidation of offices had kinda died down with Chesapeake not actively pursuing their buildings, but this time they made it pretty clear that while they "wouldn't" confirm that MidFirst was looking, they also "Couldn't" Deny the rumors that they are looking.  So this gives me hope that MidFirst is up to something, and hopefully it will happen soon!  I'd still really love to see them at 4th and EKG


That would be an awesome site for them!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

So, it looks like they're reconnecting California to the grid, is that right?

----------


## G.Walker

When speculation started almost two years ago, I think that OG&E was the company wanting to build on the Stage Center all along, then I think during that time frame Centerpointe Energy approached them with the proposal of forming an MLP. OG&E jumped on that deal, which required them to buy more land beside Stage Center, which slowed the process, which delayed announcements. I wouldn't be surprised if both towers were announced at the same time, that would be great, and makes sense, because you have both the rumors of local company and new out of state company satisfied.

----------


## Pete

> So, it looks like they're reconnecting California to the grid, is that right?


Usually when you are seeking to have an easement vacated it means you want to own it / build on it.

I suspect the buyer is trying to assemble all the parcels south to Reno.

----------


## HangryHippo

> So, it looks like they're reconnecting California to the grid, is that right?


I think they're wanting to close it off so whatever company can have the whole block down to Reno...

----------


## Pete

> What is required for an easement to be released? Is it a long or complicated process?


You sure wouldn't think so.

I suspect this is just the last step in a series of complex issues around that site: Different owners, fair valuation of publicly-owned land, relocation of existing tenants, etc.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Oh, I wonder if there's any chance they would reconnect it anyways and build something like a tunnel going through their new tower? That would pretty cool, imo. I'll find a pic in a bit to try describe more what I'm talking about.

----------


## zookeeper

> Oh, I wonder if there's any chance they would reconnect it anyways and build something like a tunnel going through their new tower? That would pretty cool, imo. I'll find a pic in a bit to try describe more what I'm talking about.


A tunnel? That's the last thing we need is two major buildings connected by a tunnel. Greenbelt walkway would be my personal choice. A skywalk would be better than a tunnel.

----------


## Teo9969

Pete, did the "new and solid information" come from one source, and if so, would the source it came from sort of give away who is at play here? By that I mean, if it's the right source, then for them to be confident that a second tower for a company bringing jobs in from out of state is definitely in the works, doesn't it seem kind of obvious that the entities involved in this are OGE and Centerpoint/Enogex MLP?

Obviously if this is a conglomerate of sources, that line of reason would not work. Just curious.

Really, if it's not OGE/Centerpoint, then OKC has a lot more going on than I think any of us realize.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> A tunnel? That's the last thing we need is two major buildings connected by a tunnel. Greenbelt walkway would be my personal choice. A skywalk would be better than a tunnel.


No, not really an underground tunnel, but more like a long arch over the road, does that make sense?

----------


## Pete

Don't want to say anything more about my source for fear of being cut off from further info!   :Wink: 

But this person knows what they are talking about, I am very, very sure.

----------


## Dustin

Yes!  I love this website!

----------


## s.hoff

I just think it is awesome that even though it seems that an announcement could be made any day now, this "mystery tower" is still mysterious! While there are obviously a few people on here who know which companies are doing what, there are still legitimate arguments that could be made for several different companies to build a new tower!

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Hopefully on the day of the announcement, there will be a Rolls Royce parked out in front of the Stage Center...

----------


## hoya

I'm just wondering why they need all the land from Sheridan to Reno.  That's a huge amount of space.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm just wondering why they need all the land from Sheridan to Reno.  That's a huge amount of space.


Looking at the site picture back on the last page, I don't think it's as large a footprint that Devon has considering their parking garage... I imagine we'll see them build their own garage along with the tower.

----------


## G.Walker

> I'm just wondering why they need all the land from Sheridan to Reno.  That's a huge amount of space.


two office towers?

----------


## Praedura

Oops, I think I've got the day after blues.

After the excitement of finding out that the Stage Center tower may be finallly coming to pass... I've got to deal with the fact that weeks may go by before we get any kind of announcement. Oh the agony of waiting...........

----------


## Pete

The City may also be looking to provide parking for this development, as they had identified the block immediately west as a possible location for a new garage (Downtown Site 2, 1054 spaces):

----------


## Praedura

Ok guys, if OKC can get a few more corporate towers, and some high rise residential towers, and some more mid-rise buildings...

before you know it, the city looks like this:



(click on the pic to see the full size image)

Well... maybe in a hundred  years, anyway.  :Smile:

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Weren't they doing improvements to that building on the site of the California Ave. garage?

----------


## Pete

> Weren't they doing improvements to that building on the site of the California Ave. garage?


Yes, the one larger building on that block was recently purchased and renovated by Allen Contracting:

516 W. California - OKCTalk

----------


## Spartan

Well soon we will have a Central Park surrounded by nothing but corporations and convention centers and a downtown elementary school surrounded by nothing but corporations and parking garages.

I wonder what's missing...

----------


## Spartan

> I'm just wondering why they need all the land from Sheridan to Reno.  That's a huge amount of space.


Yeah that's an insane amount of space. I don't get it either.

----------


## Rover

Any chance part of that large amount of land is for GE Institute?

----------


## Pete

That block isn't that big if you also need to include parking for 2,000 employees or so.

Also, there could be more than one office tower for that site, or one tower and some mixed-use.

----------


## Praedura

> That block isn't that big if you also need to include parking for 2,000 employees or so.
> 
> Also, there could be *more than one office tower* for that site, *or one tower and some mixed-use*.


Either of those two possibilities is exhilarating.

----------


## Jchaser405

So I  don't recall Devon Towers timeline, but do you think by now they have been working on sight plans behind closed doors fo a while and already have renderings of whats going to be built and just haven't released them or has that process just begun?

----------


## Pete

> So I  don't recall Devon Towers timeline, but do you think by now they have been working on sight plans behind closed doors fo a while and already have renderings of whats going to be built and just haven't released them or has that process just begun?


Pretty sure they already have conceptual plans for the Stage Center tower.

I'm sure a big part of the negotiation with the foundation that owns Stage Center and the various government entities involved regarding approvals and incentives is presenting their plan.

----------


## Bellaboo

> So I  don't recall Devon Towers timeline, but do you think by now they have been working on sight plans behind closed doors fo a while and already have renderings of whats going to be built and just haven't released them or has that process just begun?


I think Steve has seen the renderings or proposal. He's stated it'd be greater than 30 floors. Taller than Chase but not as tall as Devon.

----------


## CaptDave

> That block isn't that big if you also need to include parking for 2,000 employees or so.
> 
> Also, there could be more than one office tower for that site, or one tower and some mixed-use.





> Either of those two possibilities is exhilarating.


In a perfect world we would get the commercial tower on the SC site and a mixed use development on the south with a reopened California St running between them - in CaptDave's perfect world that is. Either way, it is nice to see some movement on the mystery tower.

----------


## Pete

More solid information this morning...

Yes, the tower will be the second tallest in OKC.  "Not as tall as Devon, but close."

We've heard all along that 40 stories were likely and that seems to be the case.  Preliminary plans call for retail on the first couple of levels.



Even though Chase is 36 stories, new buildings -- like Devon -- tend to feature significantly higher floors due to cabling and modern open office configurations.

So, if close to the 17 feet per floor average of Devon, that would place this building near 700 feet, significantly taller than Chase's 500' but not quite the 850' of Devon Tower.

Still, this would be a massive addition to the skyline both in height and expansion to the west.


Still trying to find out more about the second tower.  I know it's not quite as far along but things do sound very promising.

----------


## s00nr1

What great timing for the like function to return.

----------


## Bellaboo

If this isn't CNP/Enogex, then it's got to be MidFirst...don't see anyone else local that could do this.

----------


## Praedura

Yowzers!

----------


## Praedura

So it's actually, really, honestly, and for true about to happen???

WOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

----------


## HangryHippo

> More solid information this morning...
> 
> Yes, the tower will be the second tallest in OKC.  "Not as tall as Devon, but close."
> 
> We've heard all along that 40 stories were likely and that seems to be the case.  Preliminary plans call for retail on the first couple of levels.
> 
> 
> 
> Even though Chase is 36 stories, new buildings -- like Devon -- tend to feature significantly higher floors due to cabling and modern open office configurations.
> ...


For whatever reason, I'm unable to like this post.  But that's okay, because I love it!

----------


## HangryHippo

> If this isn't CNP/Enogex, then it's got to be MidFirst...don't see anyone else local that could do this.


I don't know enough about MidFirst's staffing levels.  Do they have that amount of people?

Pete, where are you thinking this second tower might go?

----------


## Rover

Since it is a fair amount of retail on the bottom (2 floors), does this mean the developer is not the primary tenant?  Is there an anchor tenant and other leasable space?

----------


## Pete

I believe one of the issues to be resolved with this project is the future of the food tents at the Arts Festival.

If the California easement is vacated, the tents would have to move elsewhere and they require plumbing and electricity.  In order for the Myriad Gardens and streets to accommodate these changes, some infrastructure would be required.

I'm sure there are a million complexities involving this deal, but it seems this is one of them and I'm also sure they don't want to make any public announcements until they have everything pretty well sorted out.

----------


## soonerguru

OK, we need our resident modelers to put something together with a 650-700 foot structure on the southwest corner of Walker and Sheridan. What will the skyline look like?

----------


## warreng88

> I don't know enough about MidFirst's staffing levels.  Do they have that amount of people?
> 
> Pete, where are you thinking this second tower might go?


They are completely full at their home office on Grand and Western. They are also occupying most if not all of the building on the NW corner of Hefner and Rockwell. They are basically busting at the seams, but instead of building something new, I could see them buying one of CHK's buildings like One or Two Grand for expansion. I would bet this is someone besides Midfirst, but I don't know.

----------


## OklahomaNick

> I believe one of the issues to be resolved with this project is the future of the food tents at the Arts Festival.
> 
> If the California easement is vacated, the tents would have to move elsewhere and they require plumbing and electricity.  In order for the Myriad Gardens and streets to accommodate these changes, some infrastructure would be required.
> 
> I'm sure there are a million complexities involving this deal, but it seems this is one of them and I'm also sure they don't want to make any public announcements until they have everything pretty well sorted out.


I bet your right Pete. The Community Foundation (owners) are probably working closely with the Arts Council to decide where the future of the Arts Festival is going to grow. They were already a little tight for space. This was definitely not something they considered when the renovated the Myriad Gardens.

----------


## warreng88

> OK, we need our resident modelers to put something together with a 650-700 foot structure on the southwest corner of Walker and Sheridan. What will the skyline look like?


Go ahead and throw in a 15 story convention center hotel butting up against Robinson while you are at it  :Big Grin:

----------


## Pete

> So you haven't gotten any kind of timeline for an announcement, correct?


It could come almost any time.

However, by all indications the deal is done and they are just trying to iron out some details before going public.


I'm sure they want all their ducks in a row before announcing a plan that will involve demolishing Stage Center, because there will be a lot of opposition to that.

----------


## warreng88

> I bet your right Pete. The Community Foundation (owners) are probably working closely with the Arts Council to decide where the future of the Arts Festival is going to grow. They were already a little tight for space. This was definitely not something they considered when the renovated the Myriad Gardens.


A temp fix would be placing them on the future convention center site, but what about long term? In five years, the myriad gardens will be surrounded by a new tower to the west, DT school to the SW and convention center and hotel to the south. What is the long term fix? Move it to the new park? This makes the redevelopment of the CCC site more important.

----------


## Pete

And more information...


Now I understand the Stage Center Tower will only occupy the property up to / including the California easement, not the properties south of there.

----------


## Praedura

Oh yeah!!!!!!!

----------


## warreng88

> And more information...
> 
> Now I understand the Stage Center Tower will only occupy the property up to / including the California easement, not the properties south of there.


I am thinking a building with an approximate footprint of the Chase building on the eastern side of the land with a parking garage to the west. That area to the south of this will become prime real estate once work on everything around it starts.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I bet your right Pete. The Community Foundation (owners) are probably working closely with the Arts Council to decide where the future of the Arts Festival is going to grow. They were already a little tight for space. This was definitely not something they considered when the renovated the Myriad Gardens.


Thinking out loud here, but could they put it in the parking lot south of the Myriad Gardens where the car dealership used to be?  Lots of space, but still in the general area.

----------


## Anonymous.

:Rock On:

----------


## Rover

Moving the Arts Festival should probably be a thread unto itself.

----------


## warreng88

> Thinking out loud here, but could they put it in the parking lot south of the Myriad Gardens where the car dealership used to be?  Lots of space, but still in the general area.


Again, it would only be a temp fix if the Convention Center would go on that site.

----------


## Pete

I really think the only local companies capable of building something like this are MidFirst and OG&E and I just can't believe OG&E would go for such expensive, high-profile and controversial property.  There is going to be backlash due to the Stage Center demolition and it's hard to imagine a public utilities company putting themselves in the middle of that.

We KNOW MidFirst made a bid on the OPUBCO properties on Broadway Extension and that they are out of space.  With Chesapeake no longer being a buyer for their I-44 buildings, we assumed they would look to purchase Grand Park One & Two from Chesapeake for their expansion needs.

That still may happen but the recent quick sale of other CHK office properties shows there is a strong demand in the market, even with Chesapeake now being a seller rather than buyer.  So, while they might not get the CHK premium, it shouldn't be hard to market those properties -- or keep them as investments and lease them out.


This is going to be an expensive and elaborate project and I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff Records (CEO) saw this property as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something special for his company and for the community as a whole, not unlike Larry Nichols and Devon.

----------


## Thundercitizen

This tower may also be the second tallest in entire the state.  
May have to take another video of the completed tower from I-40 with my iPhone 8.

----------


## Pete

> This tower may also be the second tallest in entire the state.


Interesting point!

Bank of Oklahoma Tower in Tulsa is 667' and this new tower should be very close to that.

----------


## Bellaboo

The only thing I'm have a hard time with is the fact that all of the block to Reno will be bought, but this tower will only be on the SC site plus the easement on California...This tells me maybe OG&E is involved, and that the rest of the block could be for CNP/Enogex to be announced later this year.....I don't know, it's bewildering.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Interesting point!
> 
> Bank of Oklahoma Tower in Tulsa is 667' and this new tower should be very close to that.


There is a big cringe going on with a few folks in Tulsa right about now.

----------


## Pete

It seems the second tower would not be on this same block but elsewhere.

----------


## Praedura

Given that Pete's source is dishing out some concrete details, it sounds like an announcement it quite imminent.

But when?

Tomorrow is Tuesday. Tuesdays are excellent days for announcements like these. So my guess is tomorrow.

Or maybe that's too soon. So my next guess is Friday.

If it isn't announced by Friday, then I'll be a little bummed (but only a little, so long as it's coming)

----------


## Praedura

> Interesting point!
> 
> Bank of Oklahoma Tower in Tulsa is 667' and this new tower should be very close to that.


Oh, they can't be unaware of that. I think that this guarantees that we're getting at least a 668 foot tower.  :Smile:

----------


## Bellaboo

As soon as this is announced, my friend DCsooner, I'm coming after you !!!  LOL   Not the bridesmaid, but the Bride this time.

----------


## Pete

> Given that Pete's source is dishing out some concrete details, it sounds like an announcement it quite imminent.
> 
> But when?
> 
> Tomorrow is Tuesday. Tuesdays are excellent days for announcements like these. So my guess is tomorrow.
> 
> Or maybe that's too soon. So my next guess is Friday.
> 
> If it isn't announced by Friday, then I'll be a little bummed (but only a little, so long as it's coming)


I don't think things are that imminent.

It could still be a month or more before there is an official announcement.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I don't think things are that imminent.
> 
> It could still be a month or more before there is an official announcement.


I don't like this post as much as some of your others from today.   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Praedura

> I don't think things are that imminent.
> 
> It could still be a month or more before there is an official announcement.


More than a month? Egads, I hope that's not the case. Well, I'll have to hold tight and attempt something resembling patience in the interim regardless.

But my gut instinct tells me it won't be that long. It just feel that your source wouldn't be leaking such info if he didn't think the official announcement was quite close. Call it Praedura's intuition.  :Smile:

----------


## Pete

This has been in the works for quite some time, it's just that a lot of this info is new to us.

The wheels have been grinding on this for several months and it's only coincidence I am just now hearing some of the specifics.


We could hear something very soon, but it also wouldn't surprise me if it took another month or two.  These things take time.

However, it IS going to happen and there is work being done now to move things forward.

----------


## Bellaboo

To back up the MidFirst probabilities, a couple of years ago, some design firm had produced renderings for a client near Broadway extension and 63rd st. IIRC, it was a 29 story, curved and tiered building, very nice looking....it's somewhere on OKCTALK.

----------


## Praedura

> ...but it also wouldn't surprise me if it took another month or two.


Don't say that! Do you want to see a grown man cry?  :Frown: 

But hey, if it does take that long, then the least your source could do is leak a rendering or two, so that at least we have something to look at and drool over in the mean time!

Just kidding  (sort of)
 :Smile:

----------


## BDP

> Well soon we will have a Central Park surrounded by nothing but corporations and convention centers and a downtown elementary school surrounded by nothing but corporations and parking garages.
> 
> I wonder what's missing...


This is true. It seems our newer high rise developments are aiming more for the typical financial centers of 40-50 years ago with large complexes gathered in sterile environments that have little life to them outside of the 8-5 work day, as opposed to the more mixed use / mixed services type of developments that are more common now. In this case, there's not much there anyway and what little life was there has been sucked out of it with Stage Center dying and everything north of it going empty.

Either way, at least Deep Deuce and MidTown are still coming along to create a nice urban environment downtown that's worth visiting / living in. Hopefully, the new park will be developed with more of a neighborhood feel that will be cool to BOTH live and work in. Certainly this could be too, but it doesn't seem to headed that way.

----------


## Bellaboo

> This is true. It seems our newer high rise developments are aiming more for the typical financial centers of 40-50 years ago with large complexes gathered in sterile environments that have little life to them outside of the 8-5 work day, as opposed to the more mixed use / mixed services type of developments that are more common now. In this case, there's not much there anyway and what little life was there has been sucked out of it with Stage Center dying and everything north of it going empty.
> 
> Either way, at least Deep Deuce and MidTown are still coming along to create a nice urban environment downtown that's worth visiting / living in. Hopefully, the new park will be developed with more of a neighborhood feel that will be cool to BOTH live and work in. Certainly this could be too,* but it doesn't seem to headed that way*.


Not too sure we know enough about it to make much judgement. Pete did say that the first 2 floors were possibly some type of mixed use retail.

----------


## Praedura

I'm trying to read the other threads on this board today, but it's a feeble attempt. My heart is only in one thread.

How many times can I keep hitting refresh, hoping that Pete tosses out another morsel?

(answer: many, many times)

----------


## Pete

There is lots of room for residential infill to the west of the Stage Center property, and I bet we start to see that before long.

----------


## Thundercitizen

I'll be glad when all these silly, thoughtless towers are thrown up in the middle of our DT.  
Perhaps we can then enjoy another era of reasonable land use and downtown development vision.

 :Smile: 
 j/k

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm trying to read the other threads on this board today, but it's a feeble attempt. My heart is only in one thread.
> 
> How many times can I keep hitting refresh, hoping that Pete tosses out another morsel?
> 
> (answer: many, many times)


About time to back away from the keyboard....lol  take a deep breath and walk around the block, get your bearings.

----------


## Rover

Either you all over estimate the amount of corporate headquarters to be built in OKC or totally underestimate the amount of space there is to build life centers.  Bricktown, Midtown, CTS, Film Row, SOSA would all be considered core in many many cities.  This crowd gets too myopic and hates businesses way to much.  Even in NYC every block isn't mixed use.  There are many, many areas that are predominately business and others predominantly residential.  We have the opportunity to provide 1-2000 more jobs downtown in this project alone, which means we can support thousands more who might want to walk or ride the ungastly 2-10 blocks to a home in btown, dd, mt, sosa.  OMG.

Why do so many see the worst in everything good.  Even when we don't know what it is.  (I may have to side with Steve.  LOL)  For all we know, this is 2 floors of retail, 28 floors of offices and 10 floors of condos.  Maybe the south part is for their new hotel.  Let's just take a breath and see.

----------


## Praedura

> About time to back away from the keyboard....lol  take a deep breath and walk around the block, get your bearings.


Yeah but...... while I'm out there walking (and sweating bullets in the heat), Pete could be posting some spiffy, tantalizing, interesting, evocative, and amazing tidbit of info about the new tower.

And I would not be there to read it the nanosecond it arrived on the board. Horrors!
 :Wink:

----------


## CaptDave

> There is lots of room for residential infill to the west of the Stage Center property, and I bet we start to see that before long.


I still hope that building private residences atop the CC Hotel similar to Ft Worth Omni is explored. That would be a pretty sweet location.

----------


## dankrutka

> There is a big cringe going on with a few folks in Tulsa right about now.


As a proud Tulsa native I am very happy for OKC. I've never understood the binary OKC/Tulsa thinking. I hope both are successful.

----------


## bchris02

> As a proud Tulsa native I am very happy for OKC. I've never understood the binary OKC/Tulsa thinking. I hope both are successful.


No matter how many towers OKC builds, Tulsa still has the advantage of having so much Art Deco in their skyline. Those are beautiful buildings that just don't get built anymore. This is off topic, but Tulsa already has an outstanding skyline for its size. What it needs is infill. Get rid of the surface lots and build more low-rise, street-level residential.

----------


## hoya

I find myself spending more and more time staring at Google Maps trying to figure out where the next development will go.  I visualize what the city would look like with a tower here, a midrise there, etc.  I'm very glad this development is going to stay north of California.  Much as I want a tower, we want to keep it from being a completely sprawling development.  You could fit several towers along that side of the Myriad Gardens, and while I understand the need for parking, we don't want to take up the entirity of the west side with a big garage.

A 700' tower for what is probably the new MLP would be a huge addition to our skyline.  Clearly they have a lot to live up to with the success of the Devon building.

----------


## Rover

I think Devon has set a new standard that I hope this new tower will aspire to reach for.  Devon is a world class (truly - I know it is an overly worn phrase) tower which would fit in any of the leading cities.  We can hope that all to follow will use it as motivation.  That isn't to say I prefer another glass tower, but rather the quality of the design and execution.

----------


## hoya

> No matter how many towers OKC builds, Tulsa still has the advantage of having so much Art Deco in their skyline. Those are beautiful buildings that just don't get built anymore. This is off topic, but Tulsa already has an outstanding skyline for its size. What it needs is infill. Get rid of the surface lots and build more low-rise, street-level residential.


Tulsa is a beautiful city, but yeah they need infill just as much as we do.  I think we'll eventually start seeing midrise condos and apartments filling in our city.  That will change the feel of our entire downtown.

Though if I was an eccentric billionaire, I'd build a giant art deco skyscraper.  Just because.  And I'd take my zeppelin in to work each day.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> No matter how many towers OKC builds, Tulsa still has the advantage of having so much Art Deco in their skyline. Those are beautiful buildings that just don't get built anymore. This is off topic, but Tulsa already has an outstanding skyline for its size. What it needs is infill. Get rid of the surface lots and build more low-rise, street-level residential.


I agree but it's not like OKC's skyline is devoid of historic Art Deco buildings. Tulsa has more, but OKC still has a few.

----------


## BDP

> Either you all over estimate the amount of corporate headquarters to be built in OKC or totally underestimate the amount of space there is to build life centers.  Bricktown, Midtown, CTS, Film Row, SOSA would all be considered core in many many cities.  This crowd gets too myopic and hates businesses way to much.  Even in NYC every block isn't mixed use.  There are many, many areas that are predominately business and others predominantly residential.  We have the opportunity to provide 1-2000 more jobs downtown in this project alone, which means we can support thousands more who might want to walk or ride the ungastly 2-10 blocks to a home in btown, dd, mt, sosa.  OMG.
> 
> Why do so many see the worst in everything good.  Even when we don't know what it is.  (I may have to side with Steve.  LOL)  For all we know, this is 2 floors of retail, 28 floors of offices and 10 floors of condos.  Maybe the south part is for their new hotel.  Let's just take a breath and see.


Oh God, another over reaction to a speculative post. I said the area doesn't _seem_ to be headed towards a neighborhood type development and then you say I hate businesses and I'm myopic, which is ironic because I am clearly speaking of the possible long term nature of the whole district, not just how cool it will be to have another tall building in the area. Just thinking and, yes, SPECULATING, about the impact of another possible two block long development in a square that is nothing but. And yes, since we don't know what it is, no one's prediction, including yours of thousands of new people wanting to live in downtown because of this, can be considered a judgement on what IS.

It's all blowing smoke right now. I don't know why people take this personally to the point of attacking others.

----------


## hoya

> I think Devon has set a new standard that I hope this new tower will aspire to reach for.  Devon is a world class (truly - I know it is an overly worn phrase) tower which would fit in any of the leading cities.  We can hope that all to follow will use it as motivation.  That isn't to say I prefer another glass tower, but rather the quality of the design and execution.


I'd prefer if the new tower had its own architectural style.  While I wouldn't turn down any of the companies who wanted to build one, if 10 years from now the 5 tallest buildings in OKC are all blue reflective glass, it'll look funny.

So we have the potential of:

New MLP (Stage Center)
OG&E (north of art museum)
maybe MidFirst (?)
maybe new Devon or Devon MLP (Preftakes block)
Convention Hotel (south of MG)

with the potential of several midrise residential towers as well.  This city could look totally different in 10 years.

----------


## CaptDave

> Though if I was an eccentric billionaire, I'd build a giant art deco skyscraper.  Just because.  And I'd take my zeppelin in to work each day.


Buy First National - you could tie your zeppelin up to the mast!

----------


## Bellaboo

Continental possible also.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Continental possible also.


SandRidge too!  Oh wait...  :  /

----------


## hoya

With all these rumors of new towers, I think we have to ask how many contractors are capable of this type of construction?  I don't think we've had a high-rise boom like this since the 30s.  FlintCo built Devon, right?  I'd assume they'd work on at least one of the new ones.  I really don't know how specialized this kind of construction is.  Are we talking about a bunch of people coming in from Texas or elsewhere to build these?  Or are we talking about a limited group of companies being kept busy, building one tower after the other?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Oh God, another over reaction to a speculative post. I said the area doesn't _seem_ to be headed towards a neighborhood type development and then you say I hate businesses and I'm myopic, which is ironic because I am clearly speaking of the possible long term nature of the whole district, not just how cool it will be to have another tall building in the area. Just thinking and, yes, SPECULATING, about the impact of another possible two block long development in a square that is nothing but. And yes, since we don't know what it is, no one's prediction, including yours of thousands of new people wanting to live in downtown because of this, can be considered a judgement on what IS.
> 
> It's all blowing smoke right now. I don't know why people take this personally to the point of attacking others.


I didn't read it as a personal attack.  Obviously I'm a little insensitive...




> With all these rumors of new towers, I think we have to ask how many contractors are capable of this type of construction?  I don't think we've had a high-rise boom like this since the 30s.  FlintCo built Devon, right?  I'd assume they'd work on at least one of the new ones.  I really don't know how specialized this kind of construction is.  Are we talking about a bunch of people coming in from Texas or elsewhere to build these?  Or are we talking about a limited group of companies being kept busy, building one tower after the other?


All I know is Dolese should be happy that a future project is in the pipeline again...

----------


## Teo9969

There's a huge part of me that hopes that this is the MLP, to the extent that I my hopes be a little let down if this is MidFirst (though I'll still be as giddy as a school girl). A new building is nice, don't get me wrong...but an $11B company headquartered in OKC is far more appealing to me than getting one more tower. Not that these are mutually exclusive, but it would be nice to know that the MLP is locked up.

Should this Stage Center tower happen to be MidFirst, then I really hope for skyline aesthetics that OGE/the new MLP, should we get it, nabs up the NW Block of Hudson/Robert S Kerr and builds a 600+ ft. tower on the SE corner. It would fill the hole in the view from East to West between City Place and Sandridge almost perfectly. And with the new tower on the SC site, the Skyline would become be pretty damn impressive...use your imagination with this photo:

----------


## traxx

Someone help me out here...what's MLP? The only thing I could come up with is My Little Pony. And that sounds like a lot of space for a My Little Pony HQ.

----------


## hoya

> Someone help me out here...what's MLP? The only thing I could come up with is My Little Pony. And that sounds like a lot of space for a My Little Pony HQ.


Master Limited Partnership, I think.  New oil and gas company that is forming and rumor has it is coming to OKC.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

> Someone help me out here...what's MLP? The only thing I could come up with is My Little Pony. And that sounds like a lot of space for a My Little Pony HQ.


Master Limited Partnership.

----------


## CaptDave

Master Limited Partnership - I believe the one talked about in OKC is a company that moves hydrocarbons from the well to the refinery. That is pretty much the extent of what I can tell you. But there are plenty of oil & gas industry people here that will educate both of us.

Edit - I was thinking Midstream LP.

----------


## HangryHippo

> There's a huge part of me that hopes that this is the MLP, to the extent that I my hopes be a little let down if this is MidFirst (though I'll still be as giddy as a school girl). A new building is nice, don't get me wrong...but an $11B company headquartered in OKC is far more appealing to me than getting one more tower. Not that these are mutually exclusive, but it would be nice to know that the MLP is locked up.
> 
> Should this Stage Center tower happen to be MidFirst, then I really hope for skyline aesthetics that OGE/the new MLP, should we get it, nabs up the NW Block of Hudson/Robert S Kerr and builds a 600+ ft. tower on the SE corner. It would fill the hole in the view from East to West between City Place and Sandridge almost perfectly. And with the new tower on the SC site, the Skyline would become be pretty damn impressive...use your imagination with this photo:


My hopes won't be let down if it's MidFirst mainly because I'd be so ecstatic over another addition to the skyline.  But I'm with you on holding out hope that the MLP will announce sometime this year that they're going to be headquartered here.  That would be HUGE, because there aren't a lot of $11B companies looking for homes.  I hope MidFirst develops something ala Devon on the Stage Center site and that the MLP takes up the corner you've suggested.  That could (and this is wild speculation/irrational hope) leave the site at EK Gaylord and 4th St for Continental's new tower.  Then if Devon's MLP builds on the Preftakes block, that would leave OG&E to find a suitable site.  At that point, I'm probably fine with wherever they choose, ha.

----------


## hoya

When we are looking at potentially 5 new corporate HQ buildings coming downtown, that is amazing potential for a city our size.  Then you consider that we have other, smaller oil and gas companies that are still growing, companies that may take up space the more established companies are vacating.  Things are looking really good for OKC right now.

----------


## Pete

As we discussed several years ago, this is shaping up very much like Charlotte, as once they built their huge centerpiece tower, they had a flurry of about 10 buildings over 30 floors.


I really do hope it's MidFirst building the next tower because it would be nice to get them back downtown and help diversify the employment / tower base there.

Too bad OPUBCO had to implode and lure American Fidelity to buy it's campus, otherwise they would almost certainly looking to build downtown as well.

----------


## catcherinthewry

I asked my MidFirst buddy over the weekend about the possibility of building downtown and he said "no, and I would know". Since he reports directly to JR I'm going to take his word for it.

----------


## HangryHippo

> As we discussed several years ago, this is shaping up very much like Charlotte, as once they built their huge centerpiece tower, they had a flurry of about 10 buildings over 30 floors.
> 
> 
> I really do hope it's MidFirst building the next tower because it would be nice to get them back downtown and help diversify the employment / tower base there.
> 
> Too bad OPUBCO had to implode and lure American Fidelity to buy it's campus, otherwise they would almost certainly looking to build downtown as well.


Imagine the skyline if Valliance Bank and Founder's Tower and the OPUBCO buildings were all located downtown.

I really do wonder how much of this is actually going to come to pass...  Probably not all, but it'd be cool if it did.

----------


## Pete

> I asked my MidFirst buddy over the weekend about the possibility of building downtown and he said "no, and I would know". Since he reports directly to JR I'm going to take his word for it.


And you've had good inside info. about MidFirst in the past, such as them taking a run at the OPUBCO properties.

So, it sounds like it's not MidFirst.  I guess we are down to OG&E?

----------


## coov23

You guys realize that the new MLP, Devon's MLP, Continental hiring and growing at a steady rate, MidFirst bringing employees from Phoenix, Boeing still moving employees in and Aubrey's new company growing fast, that OKC could have 1.5 million people, with the domino effect of retail businesses moving in etc, in the next 4 to 8 years in the metro? That's exciting.

----------


## bchris02

> As we discussed several years ago, this is shaping up very much like Charlotte, as once they built their huge centerpiece tower, they had a flurry of about 10 buildings over 30 floors.
> 
> 
> I really do hope it's MidFirst building the next tower because it would be nice to get them back downtown and help diversify the employment / tower base there.
> 
> Too bad OPUBCO had to implode and lure American Fidelity to buy it's campus, otherwise they would almost certainly looking to build downtown as well.


Charlotte's skyline is very impressive today. It didn't used to be in the '90s though. If things keep moving in this direction, OKC will have a very impressive skyline compared to its peers by 2020.

----------


## Pete

I just hope Chesapeake stabilizes and stays put, because they are still our largest private employer and pay very, very well.

We could digest the loss of SandRidge without too much trouble but if CHK completely went away, it would undo a lot of the growth being driven by others.


And BTW, even though they are not a candidate to build downtown, Hobby Lobby may have already passed CHK as the largest private employer in OKC, and they are growing faster than anyone in town.

They get overlooked but they have a massive financial impact on the area.

----------


## bchris02

> Imagine the skyline if Valliance Bank and Founder's Tower and the OPUBCO buildings were all located downtown.
> 
> I really do wonder how much of this is actually going to come to pass...  Probably not all, but it'd be cool if it did.


I don't know, I kind of like having the high-rise structures in the NW expressway corridor, giving the city a solid suburban skyline.

----------


## zookeeper

> I don't know, I kind of like having the high-rise structures in the NW expressway corridor, giving the city a solid suburban skyline.


Valliance has one of the best buildings in Oklahoma City and I agree it's great where it's at.

----------


## Teo9969

> Imagine the skyline if Valliance Bank and Founder's Tower and the OPUBCO buildings were all located downtown.
> 
> I really do wonder how much of this is actually going to come to pass...  Probably not all, but it'd be cool if it did.


Valliance and Founder's aren't that tall. I like that they've helped establish the NW skyline actually. OPUBCO even smaller. They wouldn't really help that much.

If Domestic Energy stays hot for the next 10 years, I'd bet many towers will come to pass.

OKC needs to continue to focus on the urban districts as much as anything though. It would be great if the Health Sciences center exploded with development, jobs, housing. Driving up I-35 or in from the east on I-40, the HSC makes a big impact on the urban fabric, and it also helps provide a better economic foundation. 

If C2S could become a mid-rise based (8 to 20 stories) epicenter of technology and mixed-use development, and if we could expand the CBD to have more financial companies, OKC's economy and core would be astounding for a non-major city...

----------


## Teo9969

> I just hope Chesapeake stabilizes and stays put, because they are still our largest private employer and pay very, very well.
> 
> We could digest the loss of SandRidge without too much trouble but if CHK completely went away, it would undo a lot of the growth being driven by others.
> 
> 
> And BTW, even though they are not a candidate to build downtown, Hobby Lobby may have already passed CHK as the largest private employer in OKC, and they are growing faster than anyone in town.
> 
> They get overlooked but they have a massive financial impact on the area.


CHK will be fine. They just need to not get bought out.

I don't think people think seriously enough about the "second largest NG producer only to Exxon" reality. The company will not continue to grow at the same pace, and will probably contract a bit...but I doubt it's in any danger of going under.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I don't know, I kind of like having the high-rise structures in the NW expressway corridor, giving the city a solid suburban skyline.


I don't mind where they're at, just thought it'd be cool if they had bolstered the skyline.  No matter.

----------


## HangryHippo

> CHK will be fine. They just need to not get bought out.
> 
> I don't think people think seriously enough about the "second largest NG producer only to Exxon" reality. The company will not continue to grow at the same pace, and will probably contract a bit...but I doubt it's in any danger of going under.


Is Exxon the likely buyer of CHK were they to be sold?  How likely is it that they could "not get bought out" as you say?

----------


## bchris02

> If C2S could become a mid-rise based (8 to 20 stories) epicenter of technology and mixed-use development, and if we could expand the CBD to have more financial companies, OKC's economy and core would be astounding for a non-major city...


This sounds very much like what Charlotte has become. By the strictest definition of the Charlotte MSA, they have 1.8 million people but pull far above their weight in terms of downtown amenities and urban fabric and today they have numerous high-rise luxury condo developments along with significant low-rise development.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I don't know, I kind of like having the high-rise structures in the NW expressway corridor, giving the city a solid suburban skyline.


Yes, it looks really nice from the dam on Lake Hefner  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Just the facts

> Imagine the skyline if Valliance Bank and Founder's Tower and the OPUBCO buildings were all located downtown.


On the skyline level you would never see them.  Not only are they not tall, but they have very small footprints.  However, at the sidewalk level they would make a hug difference.

----------


## zookeeper

> On the skyline level you would never see them.  Not only are they not tall, but they have very small footprints.  However, at the sidewalk level they would make a hug difference.


Actually the Valliance Bank Tower is almost the exact same height as Sandridge and is the 7th tallest building in Oklahoma City. Taller than several of the towers downtown.

----------


## Praedura

Oklahoma City 2013 now appearing......






Just replace the oil derricks with construction cranes!

 :Smiley112:

----------


## Bellaboo

> As a proud Tulsa native I am very happy for OKC. I've never understood the binary OKC/Tulsa thinking. I hope both are successful.


I feel the same as you do Dankrutka, but here is a comment from a poster in the Tulsa World on a story about Devon -

'So the BOK Tower is 52 stories, CityPlex has 60 stories and Devon Energy has 50 stories and Devon is the tallest building in Oklahoma? I guess in OKC they only go by feet high than number of stories. *Just took OKC about 34 years to accomplish this.*'

----------


## Kokopelli

Working this mystery tower riddle backwards, approximately how many employees would the speculated tower handle. Granted there are many things we don't know, but what is known is a 40 story tower approximately the same diameter as the Devon tower. Let's take away 1 floor for IT, 1 floor for lobby and perhaps a restaurant and 1 more floor for grins and giggles. *So anyone care to speculate on how many employees a 37 story tower would accommodate?* 


To answer an earlier question CHK and Hobby Lobby are tied for number of employees at 4,000 each.   Mid First is listed at having 1,150 employees, their mortgage department isn't listed as the survey seem to list those with a thousand and above employees. 

Here is the link to the Greater OKC major employees list.   Greater Oklahoma City Economic Development - Major Employers

OG+E is listed at 3,450 not sure how many of those work in the downtown office.

Of interest from that list is Farmers Ins Grp with 1500 employees, do they need to consolidate?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Is Exxon the likely buyer of CHK were they to be sold?  How likely is it that they could "not get bought out" as you say?


Doubt it. Exxon bought XTO to become the largest domestic producer of natural gas back in 2010. It was a move that wasn't that highly regarded by their stockholders at the time and even less as the natural gas price continued declining. At any rate, Exxon already has their domestic unconventional energy subsidiary in Ft. Worth and wouldn't have any reason to purchase another one. If it were anyone, I would guess Shell or Chevron, but I still doubt it. 

Edit: CHK is listed as number 7 on the O&G Journals top 150 energy companies by assets, so even if something did happen, it would most likely be a merger of some sort. If it was a complete change of control, like XTO's situation, that would probably be the worst case scenario. Even then, there is a good chance that it would remain in OKC in some form. XTO's headquarters has remained in Ft. Worth, nearly independently operated, and is actually expanding there right now. Exxon has shown no intention of adding them to their Houston mega campus and are actually relocating onshore asset employees to Ft. Worth.

In summary, a CHK buyout is definitely not the preferred scenario, but it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. 

Domestic companies ahead of CHK:
1. ExxonMobil
2. Chevron
3. ConocoPhillips
4. OXY
5. Apache
6. Anadarko

----------


## Pete

> So anyone care to speculate on how many employees a 37 story tower would accommodate?


I'd say 1,200 to 1,500, depending on size of offices, cube to office ratio, etc.

----------


## windowphobe

> Someone help me out here...what's MLP? The only thing I could come up with is My Little Pony. And that sounds like a lot of space for a My Little Pony HQ.


Canterlot Mountain, I'm sure, is taller than 667 feet.  Or hooves.

----------


## Teo9969

> Actually the Valliance Bank Tower is almost the exact same height as Sandridge and is the 7th tallest building in Oklahoma City. Taller than several of the towers downtown.


VBT is ~80% the height of SR

----------


## hoya

> Canterlot Mountain, I'm sure, is taller than 667 feet.  Or hooves.


...

I'm worried about you dude.

----------


## Kokopelli

All of this is in the thread, just thought I would update it to current.

Based on a paraphrase of Pete’s original announcement



> I'm told it will be for a *local company* which will be consolidating it's operations to that site, ala Devon.  Don't know the company but there are only a few that fit the profile:  MidFirst and OG&E being my best guesses.
> 
> There is also a second tower very much in progress and that will involve bringing in jobs from out of state.  I suspect this is the new Enogex entity, but can't be sure.  Also not sure if this would go on this same block or elsewhere.


And his estimate of  the employee count of a 37 story tower.




> I'd say 1,200 to 1,500, depending on size of offices, cube to office ratio, etc.


Then looking at the largest employer in Greater OKC  (link here  Greater Oklahoma City Economic Development - Major Employers  )

We come up with;
OG+E - but already ruled out -kinda
AT&T  - has 3000 employees - but how many work in office
Hertz - 1650 workers - ruled out early in process
Farmers Ins Group -1500 - do they need to consolidate
Mid First Bank - 1150 employees, can’t find number for their mortgage div - insiders saying not them

Two companies with less than a thousand employees come to mind; Considering completion time of tower.
Continental Resources -are expanding - but insiders are saying no not them
AAA - thinking they have 800 employees here currently but have heard they would like to add to that

Surprise candidates;  
Conoco Phillips - not technically local but perhaps sale of Sandridge is closer that anyone  knows. 

And the top 4 are still
OG+E
Mid First
Continental Resources
Mystery candidate

----------


## dankrutka

This thread is back to it's old form. We get sources on one tower and now 10 are going to be built. Lol.

----------


## Pete

I created a separate thread for direct OKC vs. Charlotte comparison:

http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-d...-skylines.html

----------


## Kokopelli

> This thread is back to it's old form. We get sources on one tower and now 10 are going to be built. Lol.


I guess I am not seeing that, my post from today are trying to figure out who is building that one tower  that we have sources on. :Smile: 

And my top three candidates are OG+E, Mid First and Continental even though insiders from all three are saying it is not them.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> This thread is back to it's old form. We get sources on one tower and now 10 are going to be built. Lol.


Some people have gotten giddy & proposed the idea that we could have a number of towers within the next few years, but not everyone is talking like that. I think people are more interested in figuring out who's building this tower rather than how many will be built. But people that would be in in the know (Pete & Steve) do say there is another tower in the works, so maybe it's okay to talk about the potential of more towers, no?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I still want a super-tall bigger than Devon, rather than two smaller buildings.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I still want a super-tall bigger than Devon, rather than two smaller buildings.


Sorry, but you won't get that due to the close proximity of downtown with Will Rogers World Airport.  If downtown were where the antenna farm is, you'd maybe get your wish.

----------


## Just the facts

Huh?  As the crow flies downtown OKC is the same distance to WRWA as downtown Atlanta is to Hartsfield (give or take about a mile).

----------


## catch22

> Sorry, but you won't get that due to the close proximity of downtown with Will Rogers World Airport.  If downtown were where the antenna farm is, you'd maybe get your wish.


There are no FAA building height restrictions downtown.

----------


## zookeeper

> Sorry, but you won't get that due to the close proximity of downtown with Will Rogers World Airport.  If downtown were where the antenna farm is, you'd maybe get your wish.


Have you ever flown into San Diego? You feel like you're flying between skyscrapers it's so close.

----------


## bchris02

> I still want a super-tall bigger than Devon, rather than two smaller buildings.


I would rather two smaller buildings.  Devon is great as our city's tallest.  Now we need more towers to feel in the gap between it and our classic towers.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I would rather two smaller buildings.  Devon is great as our city's tallest.  Now we need more towers to feel in the gap between it and our classic towers.


Don't get me wrong, I would some infill to balance our skyline out, I just love super-talls lol

----------


## bchris02

> This thread is back to it's old form. We get sources on one tower and now 10 are going to be built. Lol.


Well we know one is definitely coming and a second is likely.  Add the CC hotel and a couple of residential towers in which Steve has said are likely.  That's at least 5, which will dramatically change the skyline.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> There are no FAA building height restrictions downtown.


Hmmmm...my mistake then.  Swear I had read it somewhere.  Oh well.

----------


## Spartan

Wait. How did this thread just explode? Oo

----------


## Spartan

OK, I've read through this thread now in its entirety. One useful comment that I can add to this discussion (everything else has already been said and I hate reiterating anything)




> I really think the only local companies capable of building something like this are MidFirst and OG&E and I just can't believe OG&E would go for such expensive, high-profile and controversial property.  There is going to be backlash due to the Stage Center demolition and it's hard to imagine a public utilities company putting themselves in the middle of that.
> 
> We KNOW MidFirst made a bid on the OPUBCO properties on Broadway Extension and that they are out of space.  With Chesapeake no longer being a buyer for their I-44 buildings, we assumed they would look to purchase Grand Park One & Two from Chesapeake for their expansion needs.
> 
> That still may happen but the recent quick sale of other CHK office properties shows there is a strong demand in the market, even with Chesapeake now being a seller rather than buyer.  So, while they might not get the CHK premium, it shouldn't be hard to market those properties -- or keep them as investments and lease them out.
> 
> 
> This is going to be an expensive and elaborate project and I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff Records (CEO) saw this property as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something special for his company and for the community as a whole, not unlike Larry Nichols and Devon.


I think that now that the drama surrounding CHK has calmed down and CHK is doing what CHK needs to do in order to ensure its future viability and success, I think that Midfirst is back in play as a hot card. 

We could have been looking at them dumping everything including their campus in a firesale (should they go under or have had to reduce a lot more staffing) and possibly putting the entire North OKC commercial real estate market in a depression after they artificially raised the value of the same real estate.

We are now instead looking at probable stability, more than I would have optimistically expected this time a year ago, and can go on about our lives and business. And most pertinent, we can go on with plans for development (unless it involves CHK building more for now).





> Well we know one is definitely coming and a second is likely.  Add the CC hotel and a couple of residential towers in which Steve has said are likely.  That's at least 5, which will dramatically change the skyline.


Steve said within the next 5 years it could be announced, but it seemed mostly based on the general trajectory of downtown development and the obvious fact that we are running out of large sites for 4-5 story infill and would expect the demand for more new development to continue well into the next 5-10-15 years.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I was looking at a panorama of the downtown school construction site. It got me thinking about where the "mystery tower" construction workers will park now that the old empty lot Devon Tower construction workers used. I know there's more than enough empty lots south of there though.

----------


## Spartan

I think having construction parking down in C2S "North" would be the perfect way to get us to start thinking seriously about development there.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> I was looking at a panorama of the downtown school construction site. It got me thinking about where the "mystery tower" construction workers will park now that the old empty lot Devon Tower construction workers used. I know there's more than enough empty lots south of there though.

----------


## Pete

Confirmed that the Stage Center tower is NOT MidFirst.

----------


## hoya

Gotta be the MLP.

The good part of that is, MidFirst is not going away.  They might not be planning a tower right now, but they aren't getting smaller and they'll need more space eventually.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Gotta be the MLP.
> 
> The good part of that is, MidFirst is not going away.  They might not be planning a tower right now, but they aren't getting smaller and they'll need more space eventually.


Sounds like the probable winners are likely OG&E and Enogex/Centerpoint (not necessarily in that order) for both towers.

----------


## Pete

Don't think it's the Enogex/Centerpointe entity because I was told emphatically the Stage Center tower will be "a local company consolidating their operations" and would not represent new jobs for the area.

However, the second tower would involve new jobs so that could be the Enogex deal.

----------


## Pete

> Do know for a fact that this is a business?  Are we sure this isn't spec office, housing and retail?


Yes, local company consolidating their employees to one HQ.


By default, it almost has to be OG&E.

----------


## Just the facts

Hertz?

----------


## HangryHippo

> By default, it almost has to be OG&E.


Well, that's kind of surprising.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Hertz?


Absolutely *NOT* Hertz.

Hertz has the equivilent of about 16 floors of a typical building in OKC combined.....plus they are cutting back on their reservation space.. they now have a lot of the agents operate out of their own house.

Hertz also just announced their new HQ going to the Ft Myers area.

----------


## Bellaboo

I have a step sister who at one point before she retired, almost had to spend her last 6 months with OG&E commuting to Ardmore at a sattelite center just to get her time in. So they could be having a statewide consolidation if it is them.

The other thought, could it be a state wide consolidation of ConocoPhillips..? I know we've been here before.

----------


## okcpulse

> There are no FAA building height restrictions downtown.


The FAA did have objections to Devon's original height of 925 feet.  That was mentioned in Devon's tour video.

----------


## catch22

> The FAA did have objections to Devon's original height of 925 feet.  That was mentioned in Devon's tour video.


Link to the FAA ruling?

It was probably fluff by Devon.

"our tower is so big the FAA told us to make it smaller!"

----------


## Just the facts

> Absolutely *NOT* Hertz.
> 
> Hertz has the equivilent of about 16 floors of a typical building in OKC combined.....plus they are cutting back on their reservation space.. they now have a lot of the agents operate out of their own house.Hertz also just announced their new HQ going to the Ft Myers area.


Yes - hence the consolidate their workforce issue.  As for the Ft Meyers headquarter, they are building it with incentives which are also available to companies moving into downtown OKC, even if it is from suburban OKC.  Also, Hertz just acquired a Tulsa workforce.

According the OKC Chamber Hertz has nearly 1700 local employees.

----------


## Spartan

Guys, I just don't know if any other company fits the narrative that is unfolding.

OG+E is super spread out. Different corporate offices here and there, including the one by the METRO bus transfer at NW 5th and Harvey. Tons of technical workers in little metal warehouses near I-35 and SE 15th.

OG+E has been saving a ton of money on overhead in the last few decades. I guess they're ready to plan for the future and look more like a real company. I first started hearing about OG+E's very real efforts about 2-3 years ago, including from a friend in the energy sector who asked me if I knew anything, and then from a family friend at a funeral. My money has always been on OG+E.

So now let's roll... I would expect an announcement at the end of this week or next week. *Pete, pardon me for such an elementary question*... but is there a way for this alley ROW to be closed in a secret meeting? I know they can and will form an LLC to obfuscate what company needs it closed. It just seems like the tell-tale sign of announcement timing would be seeing the ROW closure appear on a docket.

----------


## Bellaboo

Take my word, it's NOT Hertz, trust me on this one.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Don't think it's the Enogex/Centerpointe entity because I was told emphatically the Stage Center tower will be *"a local company consolidating their operations"* and would not represent new jobs for the area.
> 
> However, the second tower would involve new jobs so that could be the Enogex deal.


This is quite the mystery, I know we've been told NO....but is this Continental, consolidating their other 3 companies from Enid within a new HQ ?

----------


## Rover

If Hertz wants to move its Tulsa addition here, they have lots of ground to build on adjacent to their current building at QS.  I believe they originally planned to expand it anyway.  I can't see them building a new and more expensive tower.

----------


## adaniel

> Guys, I just don't know if any other company fits the narrative that is unfolding.
> 
> OG+E is super spread out. Different corporate offices here and there, including the one by the METRO bus transfer at NW 5th and Harvey. Tons of technical workers in little metal warehouses near I-35 and SE 15th.
> 
> OG+E has been saving a ton of money on overhead in the last few decades. I guess they're ready to plan for the future and look more like a real company.


Well, I stated in another post a long time ago my ex GF worked for them (now Enogex) and stated they were not renewing their leases on their current office space. But this was nearly a year ago. 

The only reason I see that this is not OGE is as a public utility they are highly regulated. I have some doubts about how okay their stockholders and the OCC are in a public utility getting involved in a massive real estate development. But if they can make it work more power to them.

----------


## jedicurt

> And you've had good inside info. about MidFirst in the past, such as them taking a run at the OPUBCO properties.
> 
> So, it sounds like it's not MidFirst.  I guess we are down to OG&E?


So two sources saying it's not MidFirst.  I'm still not willing to rule out Continential yet, so my guess would be down to them and OG&E

----------


## Bellaboo

> If Hertz wants to move its Tulsa addition here, they have lots of ground to build on adjacent to their current building at QS.  I believe they originally planned to expand it anyway.  I can't see them building a new and more expensive tower.


Hertz has 5 floors at the Data Center on NW EXPY. The last I heard, most of top floor of building 2 was empty...but that's been a couple of years ago.

----------


## Snowman

> Working this mystery tower riddle backwards, approximately how many employees would the speculated tower handle. Granted there are many things we don't know, but what is known is a 40 story tower approximately the same diameter as the Devon tower. Let's take away 1 floor for IT, 1 floor for lobby and perhaps a restaurant and 1 more floor for grins and giggles. *So anyone care to speculate on how many employees a 37 story tower would accommodate?* 
> 
> 
> To answer an earlier question CHK and Hobby Lobby are tied for number of employees at 4,000 each.   Mid First is listed at having 1,150 employees, their mortgage department isn't listed as the survey seem to list those with a thousand and above employees. 
> 
> Here is the link to the Greater OKC major employees list.   Greater Oklahoma City Economic Development - Major Employers
> 
> OG+E is listed at 3,450 not sure how many of those work in the downtown office.
> 
> Of interest from that list is Farmers Ins Grp with 1500 employees, do they need to consolidate?


Farmers just built a new building like a year or two ago by rockwell & memorial

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I asked OG&E via their Facebook Page if they are planning on building a tower downtown and they replied no.    Take that for what it's worth with a huge 'ole grain of salt.


I highly doubt they're going to say "why yes we are!" to some regular Joe's like us lol.

----------


## LakeEffect

> Guys, I just don't know if any other company fits the narrative that is unfolding.
> 
> OG+E is super spread out. Different corporate offices here and there, including the one by the METRO bus transfer at NW 5th and Harvey. Tons of technical workers in little metal warehouses near I-35 and SE 15th.
> 
> OG+E has been saving a ton of money on overhead in the last few decades. I guess they're ready to plan for the future and look more like a real company. I first started hearing about OG+E's very real efforts about 2-3 years ago, including from a friend in the energy sector who asked me if I knew anything, and then from a family friend at a funeral. My money has always been on OG+E.
> 
> So now let's roll... I would expect an announcement at the end of this week or next week. *Pete, pardon me for such an elementary question*... but is there a way for this alley ROW to be closed in a secret meeting? I know they can and will form an LLC to obfuscate what company needs it closed. It just seems like the tell-tale sign of announcement timing would be seeing the ROW closure appear on a docket.


OG&E has an extremely good handle on the Corporation Commission. They would be building the HQ with their profits; I don't believe it would be considered contributed capital that would then go into rate making. The OCC would want to make sure that it doesn't impact their ability to fund activities on a day-to-day basis, but I think politically it's a defensible position.

----------


## Pete

The California easement is a City of OKC issue and I'm sure it's being handled behind closed doors.

At some point the final decision may need to take place at a public hearing, but I'm sure by then it would just be a formality.

----------


## Bellaboo

> The California easement is a City of OKC issue and I'm sure it's being handled behind closed doors.
> 
> At some point the final decision may need to take place at a public hearing, but I'm sure by then it would just be a formality.


It will be listed as 'Company X' more than likely.

----------


## LakeEffect

> The California easement is a City of OKC issue and I'm sure it's being handled behind closed doors.
> 
> At some point the final decision may need to take place at a public hearing, but I'm sure by then it would just be a formality.


Yeah. An easement has to go to Planning Commission (two hearings, I think - Intro and Final), and then City Council (same two hearings). But if they developers are smart, they work out all the political kinks before approaching the bodies, not after.

----------


## Pete

At almost every public meeting there are confidential items on the agenda.

The Planning Commission may have already looked this over.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> At almost every public meeting there are confidential items on the agenda.
> 
> The Planning Commission may have already looked this over.


i don't think rezoning or the closing of easements can be done with confidential items ... i believe they have to be public hearings ..

----------


## LakeEffect

> i don't think rezoning or the closing of easements can be done with confidential items ... i believe they have to be public hearings ..


Correct. The name of the entity requesting it may be hidden (via LLC, etc), but the action itself cannot be done that way.

----------


## Pete

But couldn't it be discussed in private before formal action is taken?  That's what I meant.

----------


## Teo9969

Surely it's OGE. Between the fact that sources have said no to CLR and MidFirst, and no source has outright said no to OGE (Only the assumption that the lot is too high-profile...and that is, in fact, an assumption) coupled with the probability that the 2nd mystery tower is likely the MLP, and that OGE and the MLP have a major connection and would ostensibly be benefitted by building on the same lot, it just seems so obvious that OGE is the company.

I'm going to wager on a July 3rd/4th announcement. Probably the 3rd, as it seems a particularly high-profile day to announce such a development, going into what will be a 4 day weekend for many.

----------


## LakeEffect

> But couldn't it be discussed in private before formal action is taken?  That's what I meant.


Oh, yes, you are correct about that.

----------


## Pete

> Surely it's OGE. Between the fact that sources have said no to CLR and MidFirst, and no source has outright said no to OGE (Only the assumption that the lot is too high-profile...and that is, in fact, an assumption)


Just to be clear, I had heard from someone who has been following this that OG&E ruled out the Stage Center site.

That may have changed, but it was for this reason that I had discounted them as a likely candidate to develop that site.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Surely it's OGE. Between the fact that sources have said no to CLR and MidFirst, and no source has outright said no to OGE (Only the assumption that the lot is too high-profile...and that is, in fact, an assumption) coupled with the probability that the 2nd mystery tower is likely the MLP, and that OGE and the MLP have a major connection and would ostensibly be benefitted by building on the same lot, it just seems so obvious that OGE is the company.
> 
> I'm going to wager on a July 3rd/4th announcement. Probably the 3rd, as it seems a particularly high-profile day to announce such a development, going into what will be a 4 day weekend for many.


I stated this same correlation in post #4277. It has to be OG&E.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

A mystery within a mystery.

----------


## Teo9969

> Just to be clear, I had heard from someone who has been following this that OG&E ruled out the Stage Center site.
> 
> That may have changed, but it was for this reason that I had discounted them as a likely candidate to develop that site.


Right. I think since this thread was started in 02/12, every entity has probably been believably ruled out at some point. But this close to an announcement, we haven't had anybody recently come out and say it's not OGE. I'm not sure when you heard it, but I would think that much has changed over the last year in terms of site location.

Plus, depending on the timeline of the MLP, OGE may have originally decided against considering this site, but reneged on that decision after the MLP's headquarters location was ostensibly determined to be in OKC. It seems like it would be a hard site for OGE to develop by itself, but with an $11B company as a co-tenant on the lot, that reality may have been negated.

----------


## Pete

While it would be nice to know WHO I have to say that part is much less interesting to me than the fact it looks pretty solid that we will be getting a pretty tall building on that site.

I'm pretty sure it's a local company so there is no real business / job news involved, so the real story is the building and development itself.

----------


## warreng88

*IF* it is OG&E, I am curious how many people will complain that they are building a new HQ and not offering lower rates to their customers... I can see the newsok article comments now.

----------


## Anonymous.

> *IF* it is OG&E, I am curious how many people will complain that they are building a new HQ and not offering lower rates to their customers... I can see the newsok article comments now.


Yes. NewsOK comment section is the most predictable comment section on a website that I have ever encountered. I thought it may have gotten less extreme when they switched to facebook login - nope.

I say they just rename it the Suburban-middle-class-white-conservative-forum.

----------


## HangryHippo

Teo, are you speculating that there will be two towers (eventually) to the west of the Myriad Gardens - one for OG&E (Mystery #1) and then another one for the MLP (Mystery #2)?

----------


## Spartan

> i don't think rezoning or the closing of easements can be done with confidential items ... i believe they have to be public hearings ..


That's what my question was trying to get to the gist of. Thanks cafeboeuf..

Another question, Pete: Do you have any idea if the ED talks behind locating another new headquarters (relocation from out of state) is still looking positive?

----------


## Teo9969

> Teo, are you speculating that there will be two towers (eventually) to the west of the Myriad Gardens - one for OG&E (Mystery #1) and then another one for the MLP (Mystery #2)?


Pure speculation, yes. Everything seems to fit that narrative pretty well with what established sources have posted on this thread and information Steve has given us.

I wouldn't really bet money on it until I knew whether or not the MLP was going to be headquartered in OKC. But for OGE to change it's mind on considering the SC site surely something big happened to make that a possibility.

----------


## s00nr1

One thing's for sure -- Steve has been interestingly absent since Pete broke the Stage Center news.

----------


## GoThunder

He did tweet this today however...

Steve's OKC Central @stevelackmeyer

Good grief... I can't begin to explain how crazy downtown development is right now behind the scenes. Get ready...
10:46 AM - 11 Jun 2013

----------


## HangryHippo

> One thing's for sure -- Steve has been interestingly absent since Pete broke the Stage Center news.


He's on a self-imposed ban from OKCTalk.  Hopefully he'll come back before too long.

----------


## Teo9969

> One thing's for sure -- Steve has been interestingly absent since Pete broke the Stage Center news.


You need to go read the SpringHill Suites thread.

----------


## Anonymous.

Jack a bunch of content from his blog with no credit. He will be back.


Just kidding  :Smiley063:

----------


## GaryOKC6

> That's what my question was trying to get to the gist of. Thanks cafeboeuf..
> 
> Another question, Pete: Do you have any idea if the ED talks behind locating another new headquarters (relocation from out of state) is still looking positive?


My ED sources are saying that a company that is already here locally is bringing in other operations.  Not sure if this is the mystery tower but this is definitely happening.

----------


## s.hoff

> Pure speculation, yes. Everything seems to fit that narrative pretty well with what established sources have posted on this thread and information Steve has given us.
> 
> I wouldn't really bet money on it until I knew whether or not the MLP was going to be headquartered in OKC. But for OGE to change it's mind on considering the SC site surely something big happened to make that a possibility.


Twin towers, maybe? That would be something else.

----------


## soonerguru

> He did tweet this today however...
> 
> Steve's OKC Central @stevelackmeyer
> 
> Good grief... I can't begin to explain how crazy downtown development is right now behind the scenes. Get ready...
> 10:46 AM - 11 Jun 2013


News at eleven. Nice tease.

----------


## dankrutka

> He did tweet this today however...
> 
> Steve's OKC Central @stevelackmeyer
> 
> Good grief... I can't begin to explain how crazy downtown development is right now behind the scenes. Get ready...
> 10:46 AM - 11 Jun 2013


He also said there will be articles in the Oklahoman on new downtown development every day this week. Then this tweet later:

@stevelackmeyer: By the time this week is done, I will have written about more than $100 million in new downtown development. Ponder that.
6/11/13, 4:48 PM

----------


## Thundercitizen

I HOPE it's more than a hunnerd mil.

----------


## Just the facts

Whatever Steve is selling - I'm buying.

----------


## Dustin

> He did tweet this today however...
> 
> Steve's OKC Central @stevelackmeyer
> 
> Good grief... I can't begin to explain how crazy downtown development is right now behind the scenes. Get ready...
> 10:46 AM - 11 Jun 2013


I got goosebumps.  I hope my brain explodes when the details come out!

----------


## kevinpate

> I HOPE it's more than a hunnerd mil.


Had to laugh.  I read that post and instantly flashed on Steve wearing silver and doing a Dr. Evil spoof.  

After all, it wasn't all that long ago that one hun-dred millllllll-ion dollars was a big deal round these parts.

----------


## DowntownMan

If Continental isn't building a tower anytime soon..where are they placing their employees as they have to be busting at the seams by now or soon to be within the next 12 months I would assume given their growth.

I'm excited to see who is the first company to make a big announcement about a tower soon as it seems someone is going to.

----------


## Pete

I've heard that Continental has put Crowe & Dunlevy on notice they will not be renewing their lease, which I believe expires in 2015.

C&D has four floors in the Continental building: 16 through 19.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Yeah cause $100 million is 7.5 times less what Devon dropped on their headquarters. He said that to tease anyone that thinks he's talking about a mystery tower. What he's talking about is probably small cookies and multiple properties that the average Joe is not aware of.

----------


## Pete

Steve is probably referencing Maywood Phase II, the East Bricktown development and House of Bedlam developments set to be shown at tomorrow's Bricktown Design Review Committee, and a couple of other things.

I hope some of it are projects not previously announced.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Yeah cause $100 million is 7.5 times less what Devon dropped on their headquarters. He said that to tease anyone that thinks he's talking about a mystery tower. What he's talking about is probably small cookies and multiple properties that the average Joe is not aware of.


I doubt he said that to tease anyone about the mystery tower. He doesn't tweet promos like that everyday, so for him to tweet that makes me think he's about to report some legit stuff happening downtown. Or what Pete said.

----------


## Teo9969

Maywood Phase II is going to be $15M+, and East Bricktown is estimated ~$75M, so there's definitely some room for several nice projects in there. Would like to hear more concrete plans about some things going on in MidTown.

----------


## Pete

Yes, something big is brewing with the MidtownR people and the empty lots they own north of 10th.

Looking forward to learning more as they do fantastic work and it will be very interesting what they come up with from a blank slate rather than renovation.

----------


## Bellaboo

> My ED sources are saying that a company that is already here locally is bringing in other operations.  Not sure if this is the mystery tower but this is definitely happening.


Boeing  ???

----------


## HangryHippo

I wondered earlier today if it was Boeing. But I just don't think it is.

----------


## Spartan

> One thing's for sure -- Steve has been interestingly absent since Pete broke the Stage Center news.


Steve is probably busy already writing the articles for the newspaper..

----------


## dankrutka

> Yes, something big is brewing with the MidtownR people and the empty lots they own north of 10th.
> 
> Looking forward to learning more as they do fantastic work and it will be very interesting what they come up with from a blank slate rather than renovation.


This may have already been confirmed, but the Dust Bowl/Fassler Hall concept is should be announced before too long along 10th street just east of Brown's. It's my understanding that it'll be new construction even though that's not characteristic of Elliot Nelson's previous developments. That'll be a great concept.

----------


## lasomeday

So who is it?  If its not oge or Midfirst?

Bancfirst?
http://www.okcommerce.gov/Libraries/...oyers_1238.pdf

----------


## Kokopelli

And since it is just 100 million that means we still don't know whether the new 125 million GE Energy Research Center is going to be in Norman or OKC.

----------


## dankrutka

Is one of the seemingly guaranteed "towers" now in doubt?: Oklahoma City convention center hotel study put on hold | News OK

----------


## coov23

> Is one of the seemingly guaranteed "towers" now in doubt?: Oklahoma City convention center hotel study put on hold | News OK


Has nothing to do with the towers. Hotel will still be built. The council just doesn't want to pay 100k on research they could probably have done for way less.

----------


## Just the facts

Well finally we might get to see the secret chamber document that said we need a 2-phase convention center and large hotel.  To echo Shadid's comments in the article, the hotel and second phase were suppressed in the MAPS III discussions.  In fact, even the tripling of convention business doesn't happen until phase 2 is done.  It was a typical political smoke and mirrors operation where the best possible out-come was pitched but only 1/3 of the cost was revealed.  At least the streetcar group was up front that the MAPS III streetcar was only a starter system (while still being fully functional if next phases never materialized).

----------


## warreng88

> Well finally we might get to see the secret chamber document that said we need a 2-phase convention center and large hotel.  To echo Shadid's comments in the article, the hotel and second phase were suppressed in the MAPS III discussions.  In fact, even the tripling of convention business doesn't happen until phase 2 is done.  It was a typical political smoke and mirrors operation where the best possible out-come was pitched but only 1/3 of the cost was revealed.  At least the streetcar group was up front that the MAPS III streetcar was only a starter system (while still being fully functional if next phases never materialized).


I don't have the research to back it up, but I do remember hearing that the convention center would be phase 1 of 2 and that a hotel would be need to be subsidized after the initial proposals and before the vote actually happened. I voted yes knowing all of those things.

----------


## betts

> I don't have the research to back it up, but I do remember hearing that the convention center would be phase 1 of 2 and that a hotel would be need to be subsidized after the initial proposals and before the vote actually happened. I voted yes knowing all of those things.


I think you might have heard that here, as speculation.  I don't remember that being said officially, prior to the MAPS 3 vote.  Looking at the price tag, I knew they were going to be asking for more money eventually.  I just figured it would be a MAPS 4 vote, most likely.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> He did tweet this today however...
> 
> Steve's OKC Central @stevelackmeyer
> 
> Good grief... I can't begin to explain how crazy downtown development is right now behind the scenes. *Get ready...*
> 10:46 AM - 11 Jun 2013






The tower, I mean  :Wink:

----------


## zookeeper

> Has nothing to do with the towers. Hotel will still be built. The council just doesn't want to pay 100k on research they could probably have done for way less.


The amount was staggering to me. Especially when you consider they said would deliver their final report "this summer." That's a very fast turnaround for $100,000.00.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Well finally we might get to see the secret chamber document that said we need a 2-phase convention center and large hotel.  To echo Shadid's comments in the article, the hotel and second phase were suppressed in the MAPS III discussions.  In fact, even the tripling of convention business doesn't happen until phase 2 is done.  It was a typical political smoke and mirrors operation where the best possible out-come was pitched but only 1/3 of the cost was revealed.  At least the streetcar group was up front that the MAPS III streetcar was only a starter system (while still being fully functional if next phases never materialized).


Our Convention business is bustiung at the seams.  It will take care of itself.  Just looking at the next 30 days, there are over 20ooo convention room nights booked.  I don't think that we can build a new convention center fast enough.

----------


## bchris02

The article made it seem like the building of the hotel is in question. It makes it seem like with the Staybridge Suites, Aloft, etc there won't be enough demand for another full service hotel.

Personally I would love to see an Omni.

----------


## s00nr1

Omni, Grand Hyatt, W, Westin -- anything but these second-tier hotels we are saturating downtown with.




> The article made it seem like the building of the hotel is in question. It makes it seem like with the Staybridge Suites, Aloft, etc there won't be enough demand for another full service hotel.
> 
> Personally I would love to see an Omni.

----------


## bchris02

> Omni, Grand Hyatt, W, Westin -- anything but these second-tier hotels we are saturating downtown with.


Agreed. It seems like every second-rate, roadside hotel chain is wanting to get a piece of the pie as of late. It will be great to see another full-service, top tier hotel downtown and hopefully all these garbage hotels don't ruin our chances of it.

----------


## Pete

I know here in Los Angeles, the Gas Co. has a 52-story downtown tower they built about 15 years ago, and they consolidated employees for other downtown building when it opened.

I had a project in there for a while and it's extremely nice.  They also lease some space to outside tenants, and that may happen here as well to help them offset the cost.  After all, there seems to be great demand for nice, Class A space.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> ... They also lease some space to outside tenants, and that may happen here as well to help them offset the cost...


That's why I wonder if this won't just be for one company and maybe some residential (another reason why no one has responded to the RPF put out for the Main Street Parking garage because there are other parties in the know about this deal being worked on at the SCC) as well as retail presence downtown.  Along with the easement issue, there are a lot of contracts that have to be tied down.

----------


## Kokopelli

Pete 

Is the LA Gas Co bldg. the 2nd tall bldg. from the left with the curved glass top or the far right bldg. with the rounded right front corner.

Something along the lines of the 2nd tall bldg. from the left with the curved glass at the top has more character in my humble opinion. And the Stage Center site needs to have a quality  looking bldg.

----------


## Pete

> Is the LA Gas Co bldg. the 2nd tall bldg. from the left with the curved glass top or the far right bldg. with the rounded right front corner.


2nd tall building from the left.

It's completely in keeping with the other new, corporate towers in downtown L.A. even though it's owned by a utility company.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Something like the JP Morgan Chase building in Dallas would make me happy.  Hopefully this new "mystery" tower has a throwback to the late '80s design so we can fill the gap, both physically and historically.

----------


## G.Walker

My guess is that Steve nor any other news source will break this story. This is a pretty big deal, so the company will probably have a major press conference announcing the news to everyone at the same time, with Governor Fallin, Mayor Cornett, and other City officials present, then follow up stories will be written after that.

----------


## Bellaboo

Since this has been in the works for a couple of years, does anyone think they'll start actual construction by this fall ? Seems like they should be a long ways down the road.

----------


## bradh

> *Well finally we might get to see the secret chamber document that said we need a 2-phase convention center and large hotel.*  To echo Shadid's comments in the article, the hotel and second phase were suppressed in the MAPS III discussions.  In fact, even the tripling of convention business doesn't happen until phase 2 is done.  It was a typical political smoke and mirrors operation where the best possible out-come was pitched but only 1/3 of the cost was revealed.  At least the streetcar group was up front that the MAPS III streetcar was only a starter system (while still being fully functional if next phases never materialized).


I don't know you and I'm a relatively new poster here, but I think you're in for a let down.  My wife worked for the Chamber for 5 years and that document has been seen by the media already, and has been reported on, so if there was earth shattering corrupt data you'd know about it already.  The hotel was not part of the MAPS discussions but was/in not intended to be paid for with MAPS funds.

I know most of us for the most part view OKC as a place we live, but in reality the city does compete with other cities, just like we all do in our own jobs with other companies, and like the Thunder compete against other teams, for convention business, corporate relocations and expansions, etc.  The release of that document in full could have jeopardized OKC's competitive advantages over other cities.

Again, not to ruffle any feathers, just tossing that out there.  We were transplants here 5 years ago due to my job and we love it here.  We've seen much more cooperation in local government here over any other place we've lived, and the results speak for themselves.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Since this has been in the works for a couple of years, does anyone think they'll start actual construction by this fall ? Seems like they should be a long ways down the road.


Devon Energy made their announcement in March of 2008 and construction officially started October 1st, 2009.  Being that that was just over 1 1/2 years it's probably going to be a wait and see game.

----------


## G.Walker

> Since this has been in the works for a couple of years, does anyone think they'll start actual construction by this fall ? Seems like they should be a long ways down the road.


I am guessing the majority of the work is already done behind the scenes. With that being said, demolition and site prep would only take a few months. If announced next month, we should start seeing cranes in early Spring of 2014.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Devon Energy made their announcement in March of 2008 and construction officially started October 1st, 2009.  Being that that was just over 1 1/2 years it's probably going to be a wait and see game.


There will obviously be a little more demolition involved with this project. Wouldn't surprise me to see that phase start by late fall or early next year.

----------


## Just the facts

> I don't know you and I'm a relatively new poster here, but I think you're in for a let down.  My wife worked for the Chamber for 5 years and that document has been seen by the media already, and has been reported on, so if there was earth shattering corrupt data you'd know about it already.  The hotel was not part of the MAPS discussions but was/in not intended to be paid for with MAPS funds.


Well, here is the thing, the MAPS III sales pitch was that the new convention center would triple the convention business, and that may very well be, BUT, and this is a big big BUT, it was never publicized that to get the triple business a second phase and hotel had to be built.  While the second phase and hotel might not have been targets for MAPS funding the reality is that voting for phase 1 obligated the people of OKC to also fund phase 2 and a portion of the hotel - or else funding phase 1 via MAPS would be a waste of money.

Now having said that, I am all for a new convention center but not because I believe some pie in the sky economic boom prediction, but because the real value in a new convention center is in freeing up the land the Cox currently sits on.

----------


## Kokopelli

It would be nice if all this convention center & hotel conversation would find its way back to the Convention Center & Hotel thread.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> It would be nice if all this convention center & hotel conversation would find its way back to the Convention Center & Hotel thread.


Pete will move it.  Pete always moves it...eventually.

With regard to the StageCenterSite, I'd be more than happy if a year and a half didn't go by before we started to see demo.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> 12:07
> Comment From Lackmeyer Fan  
> What is this mystery tower everyone is referencing?
> 
> 12:07
> Steve Lackmeyer: It's a cell phone tower.
> 
> 12:08
> Steve Lackmeyer: Maybe.


Cell phone company? Just kidding.

----------


## G.Walker

Steve did say in his chat that he might have a big story for us in this Sunday's Oklahoman, and that it would be a surprise, not sure it will be regarding a tower, but I am anxious to know what it could be.

----------


## G.Walker

10:45 a.m. You referenced on twitter earlier this week how crazy things have been behind the scenes in downtown okc, and I don't want to sound greedy, but is there more development in "the pipeline" for downtown okc than what you reported on this week? If so, any hits as to what or where these projects may be?


Steve Lackmeyer - 10:48 a.m. Well, on my blog yesterday I reported that Jeannette Smith is stepping down as director of the Bricktown Association. I've also reported the House of Bedlam project in Bricktown is going to be bigger than first planned. I've shown how extensive the east Bricktown project will be. We've seen a major potential split begin on whether to build a large conference hotel. We now know a Hyatt Place may be in the works for the east Bricktown project. Is there more coming? *You bet. I might have a surprise in tomorrow's Oklahoman.*

----------


## G.Walker

Jane - 12:04 p.m. Are you going to have a big story in Sunday's Oklahoman?



Steve Lackmeyer - 12:04 p.m. *No.* 


Steve Lackmeyer - 12:04 p.m. *Yes.*

----------


## Praedura

> Jane - 12:04 p.m. Are you going to have a big story in Sunday's Oklahoman?
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer - 12:04 p.m. *No.* 
> 
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer - 12:04 p.m. *Yes.*


I'll take that as a definitive No/Yes.   :Noldus:

----------


## Spartan

So does this mean we will see it tonight at 1am?

Given that that's when most news pieces go live unless they're breaking, I'm not sure that's when OG+E wants the announcement to get out.

Further, as to how long Devon took between announcement and ground breaking, we seem to have forgotten the major reason for that was e design phase. It seems like the preliminary design phase may be quite well underway here.

----------


## HangryHippo

Steve had an interesting response to a question in the NewsOK chat this morning that left me wondering if Mystery Tower is someone other than the new MLP/OG&E.

Bethany Sooner 10:41 a.m. - Steve, you mentioned the area around Robert S Kerr and Hudson as a potential tower location. Is this site still in play regarding a probable future tower?

Steve Lackmeyer 10:44 a.m. - Is it in play? I won't go that far. But consider this: let's say that the Enogex midstream deal does result in a new tower being built in downtown Oklahoma City. What are the possibilities that they would want to build immediately west of the garage currently used by their sister company OG&E and the county and be just a block away from OG&E? The block could easily be redeveloped...

I'm probably reading too much into it, but he's openly talking about that site making sense for the new MLP because it's close to OG&E.  Anyway, it left me wondering if someone else is behind Stage Center site.

----------


## Kokopelli

> Steve had an interesting response to a question in the NewsOK chat this morning that left me wondering if Mystery Tower is someone other than the new MLP/OG&E.
> 
> Bethany Sooner 10:41 a.m. - Steve, you mentioned the area around Robert S Kerr and Hudson as a potential tower location. Is this site still in play regarding a probable future tower?
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer 10:44 a.m. - Is it in play? I won't go that far. But consider this: let's say that the Enogex midstream deal does result in a new tower being built in downtown Oklahoma City. What are the possibilities that they would want to build immediately west of the garage currently used by their sister company OG&E and the county and be just a block away from OG&E? The block could easily be redeveloped...
> 
> I'm probably reading too much into it, but he's openly talking about that site making sense for the new MLP because it's close to OG&E.  Anyway, it left me wondering if someone else is behind Stage Center site.


That would almost go hand in hand with this comment.

George 11:29 a.m. If a mystery tower were to create a lot of new vacant space downtown, how quickly do you think it could reabsorbed?

Steve Lackmeyer 11:29 a.m. I don't think it will.

But as hot as downtown is refilling a building the size of OG+E's current building would be a problem.

----------


## HangryHippo

Who else could it be though that's local but that wouldn't create a sizable chunk of vacant space?  I really have no idea.

----------


## Spartan

> That would almost go hand in hand with this comment.
> 
> George 11:29 a.m. If a mystery tower were to create a lot of new vacant space downtown, how quickly do you think it could reabsorbed?
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer 11:29 a.m. I don't think it will.
> 
> But as hot as downtown is refilling a building the size of OG+E's current building would be a problem.


I'm pretty sure it's roughly the size of Devon's old Mid-Continent Tower?

----------


## Pete

OG&E's building is only 100,000 sq. ft. and the old Devon building is 323,000.

----------


## Spartan

Yeah that would be easily absorbed but I am not sure if it is Class A space...that may be the difficulty Lackmeyer is alluding to, because downtown nobody wants Class C or lower B space right now. I am confident, just from reading his recent comments and knowing his position combined with the fact he's not blogging about this (despite the big business that mystery tower speculation has become) he is using every opportunity he can to be vague and avoid giving any kind of indication.

----------


## Pete

I think his "I don't think it will" comment was in regards to creating lots of vacant space, not it's potential for absorption.

OG&E has the 100,000 s.f. plus employees scattered all over the place.  So moving them into a new tower would not have a big impact on downtown vacancy.

----------


## Kokopelli

Just now noticed my typo, I actually meant to say it wouldn't be a problem to fill the space not would be.

----------


## Kokopelli

> Yeah that would be easily absorbed but I am not sure if it is Class A space...that may be the difficulty Lackmeyer is alluding to, because downtown nobody wants Class C or lower B space right now. I am confident, just from reading his recent comments and knowing his position combined with the fact he's not blogging about this (despite the big business that mystery tower speculation has become) he is using every opportunity he can to be vague and avoid giving any kind of indication.


And sometimes his answered could be contradictions of earlier post.

James 10:58 a.m. If you were a betting man, would you put money on GE ending up in okc or norman? 

Steve Lackmeyer 10:59 a.m. That's a difficult bet to make. Really, genuinely, I can't call this one.  (paraphrased quote)

Then one  post later he said this in an reply to a question about the future development of East Bricktown.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:05 a.m. East Bricktown, 2025. I'm taking the new streetcar from the new GE Energy Research Laboratory in the Health Sciences Center to enjoy an afternoon in Bricktown. (just first line of his answer).

----------


## MikeLucky

Has Love's been mentioned????  I'm not providing any scoop and I don't have any information... Just wondering if Love's has been mentioned at all or even makes sense.

----------


## Pete

Loves just built a new HQ at Hefner & Penn.  And they probably only have a hundred or so in their main office.

----------


## okc_bel_air

I believe Love's is already in the process of building a new building for themselves at the current location.

----------


## Bellaboo

I thought this was somewhat interesting of a comment -


11:10 a.m. Fair enough on most of your points, but you do know enough to report some high points without a lot of details if you wanted. *Such as who the company is*. Correct?


Steve Lackmeyer 11:11 a.m. Yes and no.* My answer in March would be different than what it is today.* The soup isn't done cooking yet. If you want speculation and gossip, there are other sources for that.

Is this out of context, or did he not exactly know in March who is behind the MT ?

----------


## HangryHippo

> I thought this was somewhat interesting of a comment -
> 
> 
> 11:10 a.m. Fair enough on most of your points, but you do know enough to report some high points without a lot of details if you wanted. *Such as who the company is*. Correct?
> 
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer 11:11 a.m. Yes and no.* My answer in March would be different than what it is today.* The soup isn't done cooking yet. If you want speculation and gossip, there are other sources for that.
> 
> Is this out of context, or did he not exactly know in March who is behind the MT ?


This caught my eye as well. Weird. 

Kokopelli made a good point though about contradicting answers sometimes. I think it's partly a result of the way questions are submitted and answered though.

----------


## Kokopelli

> I thought this was somewhat interesting of a comment -
> 
> 
> 11:10 a.m. Fair enough on most of your points, but you do know enough to report some high points without a lot of details if you wanted. *Such as who the company is*. Correct?
> 
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer 11:11 a.m. Yes and no.* My answer in March would be different than what it is today.* The soup isn't done cooking yet. If you want speculation and gossip, there are other sources for that.
> 
> Is this out of context, or did he not exactly know in March who is behind the MT ?


I noticed this one as well and again I wondered if OKC had indeed been in the race for the new Met-Life headquarters that went to Charlotte. On the other hand it could have been another local company. One thing appears to be for sure, Stage Center is an excellent site. Hopefully the company that ends up with it will do the site justice.

----------


## BigD Misey



----------


## OKCisOK4me

> 


That's one tall elementary school!

----------


## BigD Misey

School teachers do not drive a RR

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> School teachers do not drive a RR


If you watch the video on YouTube, Elliott has his building on the block where the school is currently being built.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> If you watch the video on YouTube, Elliott has his building on the block where the school is currently being built.


I can't find the video >_< would you happen  to have a link??

----------


## BigD Misey

True the school will be there but a mystery tower still remains and the "patented" concept has yet to be built. 1 block east.
This would be an iconic structure that would give OKC tourism a boost and fit in with the "energy hub" north persona OKC has built itself into. 
Look i'm not sayin its gonna happen...just speculating and throwing ideas out there. And I would love to see it built.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I can't find the video >_< would you happen  to have a link??

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> True the school will be there but a mystery tower still remains and the "patented" concept has yet to be built. 1 block east.
> This would be an iconic structure that would give OKC tourism a boost and fit in with the "energy hub" north persona OKC has built itself into. 
> Look i'm not sayin its gonna happen...just speculating and throwing ideas out there. And I would love to see it built.


I'm just glad that it has resurfaced, that video above is awesome and a lot better than the still pic I had seen long ago.  Elliott looks like Penn Jillett, so maybe a lil magic is on our future.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

That would be awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Thundercitizen

That would be an awesome OKC-unique feature, but would come with some sort of wind-access envelope, similar to a solar envelope. As long as no significant adjacent structures were planned immediately adjacent...no biggie.

----------


## Dustin

That Rand Elliot concept would be like the space needle in Seattle.  It would be a great landmark for the city!  Instantly recognizable.

----------


## Thundercitizen

If the tower stops spinning, does that mean you're not dreaming?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> If the tower stops spinning, does that mean you're not dreaming?


The floors are stationary.  It's the carbon fiber cylinders between them that rotate.

----------


## hoya

> If the tower stops spinning, does that mean you're not dreaming?


Depends how deep you have gone.  Though with all the parking lots around here, it'll be pretty easy for your wife to find you.

----------


## BigD Misey

Rand may want to consider moving it south along the river to where wheeler park is or to the new development at the old downtown airstrip to ensure full wind and sun exposure. Although a school on the west side and gardens on the east will get good sun exposure at the Stage center site. Not sure about how towers to the north would affect wind exposure.

----------


## Spartan

> School teachers do not drive a RR


Local/pseudo architects do though (as well as porsches)

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I thought the consensus here was that it was hated. I think it's really cool.

----------


## OKCRT

> I thought the consensus here was that it was hated. I think it's really cool.


Would this be a hotel,residential or offices? Build it I say. Maybe the new cc hotel? They would save a ton on the light bill.

----------


## Teo9969

> Would this be a hotel,residential or offices? Build it I say. Maybe the new cc hotel? They would save a ton on the light bill.


It could be any of those things, but @ less than 600,000 square feet, it wouldn't be big enough for the CC hotel.

----------


## stratosphere

thanks for the video,  that's awesome,  I hope they build that.

----------


## HotStuff80

You are right!!!!   It is extremely cool.  It also fits the space in the video with regard as to new construction.   I don't live there, but I'm an Okie from Altus, OK, who spent summers and 3 years in OKC.  Wow!  :Smiley208:

----------


## sroberts24

The only place I would want that building would be down by the river, it wouldn't work immediately downtown with there being 0 street front.  It would be great as housing on the river and maybe some commercial space on the lower levels. Maybe the Olympic Kayak and Rowing could have their offices there

----------


## MikeLucky

> I thought this was somewhat interesting of a comment -
> 
> 
> 11:10 a.m. Fair enough on most of your points, but you do know enough to report some high points without a lot of details if you wanted. *Such as who the company is*. Correct?
> 
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer 11:11 a.m. Yes and no.* My answer in March would be different than what it is today.* The soup isn't done cooking yet. If you want speculation and gossip, there are other sources for that.
> 
> Is this out of context, or did he not exactly know in March who is behind the MT ?





> This caught my eye as well. Weird. 
> 
> Kokopelli made a good point though about contradicting answers sometimes. I think it's partly a result of the way questions are submitted and answered though.


I'm starting to think Steve kind of likes all the drama, question, innuendo, and attention....  And, it's pretty obvious he's talking about us here at OKCTalk when he says, "If you want speculation and gossip, there are other sources for that."

 :Smiley122:

----------


## lasomeday

> I'm starting to think Steve kind of likes all the drama, question, innuendo, and attention....  And, it's pretty obvious he's talking about us here at OKCTalk when he says, "If you want speculation and gossip, there are other sources for that."


Yeah, he is supposed to have a big story in the paper tomorrow..... not sure if its the tower, but it could be....  He said its bigger than the Maywood and East Bricktown announcements....well maybe not bigger but more exciting... to him.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yeah, he is supposed to have a big story in the paper tomorrow..... not sure if its the tower, but it could be....  He said its bigger than the Maywood and East Bricktown announcements....well maybe not bigger but more exciting... to him.


I saw the 'early' Sunday edition and he didn't have a story in it.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I saw the 'early' Sunday edition and he didn't have a story in it.


Did you see what it was the he was referring to?

----------


## HotStuff80

> The only place I would want that building would be down by the river, it wouldn't work immediately downtown with there being 0 street front.  It would be great as housing on the river and maybe some commercial space on the lower levels. Maybe the Olympic Kayak and Rowing could have their offices there


sroberts24,
You would know best.  Since I no longer know the area.  BTW, my "real" last name is... can you guess?  "Roberts"  A strange and small world.  Take care to all on this BB.

----------


## BigD Misey

Maybe its tied to the Battelle story. 7k jobs in 10 yrs is pretty significant. They need PLACES to work. Although that particular story isn't his per say.
Also several mil. In job incentives for a couple of companies means a good influx of workers and they also need places.

----------


## Spartan

> Yeah, he is supposed to have a big story in the paper tomorrow..... not sure if its the tower, but it could be....  He said its bigger than the Maywood and East Bricktown announcements....well maybe not bigger but more exciting... to him.


It might just be announcing the display of a newly uncovered historical relic or something

----------


## soonerguru

Will there be more discussion about OKCTalk?

----------


## Kokopelli

> Yeah, he is supposed to have a big story in the paper tomorrow..... not sure if its the tower, but it could be....  He said its bigger than the Maywood and East Bricktown announcements....well maybe not bigger but more exciting... to him.


Just reread the chat and never seen where Steve said he was going to have a big story in the paper tomorrow.

At the 10:49 mark he said he might have a story in tomorrow's paper. 

And then there was this.

Jane 12:04 p.m.Are you going to have a big story in Sunday's Oklahoman?

Steve Lackmeyer 12:04 p.m. No.

Steve Lackmeyer 12:04 p.m.Yes.


OKC Central Chat transcript, June 14, 2013 | News OK

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Bold prediction:

There's eventually going to be a story in the paper one of these days...

----------


## PhiAlpha

I think it was the story on the new building in film row.

He didnt say anything about it being big, he just said there might be a surprise development story.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

What was the story?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

It was about the plans for the building to be built at 600 W Sheridan. There's a thread on here with that in the title.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

K thanks. . . I guess it was overhyped lol. Figured that would be the case though.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## HangryHippo

> K thanks. . . I guess it was overhyped lol. Figured that would be the case though.


When Steve said "surprise," I thought it would be something good.  Oh well.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> When Steve said "surprise," I thought it would be something good.  Oh well.


Yeah, I'm going to wake up one day and get on and see that this thread has grown by 5-15 pages and THEN I will know something is going down lol

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Yeah, I'm going to wake up one day and get on and see that this thread has grown by 5-15 pages and THEN I will know something is going down lol


The only reason I signed up for Twitter is to read the random thoughts of Steve Lackmeyer...since he doesn't post on here anymore.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The only reason I signed up for Twitter is to read the random thoughts of Steve Lackmeyer...since he doesn't post on here anymore.


I have never used Twitter lol. . . Is that permanent??? Or did he just take a break? From some of his chats it seems like he has hit his limit.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

idk

----------


## HangryHippo

> I have never used Twitter lol. . . Is that permanent??? Or did he just take a break? From some of his chats it seems like he has hit his limit.


Sadly, it's more permanent than not.

----------


## Praedura

I don't suppose that... there's... any... new info... on this....

Nah, I guess not. Well, that's cool. I'm just chillin, ya know. Just waiting.



Yep, just waiting... and waiting.

It's no big deal really. I've got oodles of patience. Seriously. Not a problem.

Of course, if anyone has some new tidbits, any juicy new rumors about the tower, then hey... feel free to jump right in and let us know all about it.

Otherwise, I'll just go about my business. I mean, there's so much more to life than just waiting for some silly announcement about a new downtown skyscraper, right?
It's not like I don't have my priorities straight. C'mon now.

So, like I said, I'll just be patiently waiting for any new info. Yep, just waiting.



Just waiting away...

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Slow down there cowboy...lol

----------


## Spartan

> I have never used Twitter lol. . . Is that permanent??? Or did he just take a break? From some of his chats it seems like he has hit his limit.


It's always permanent, until he comes back..

----------


## hoya

A good way to see Steve come back is to post a picture from one of his articles.  It's like saying "Candyman" 3 times in the mirror.

----------


## Watson410

Is there seriously one hundred eight one pages and four thousand five hundred twenty two post about absolutely NOTHING?!? SMH.

----------


## BlackmoreRulz

nope, 4524 now....

----------


## ljbab728

> nope, 4524 now....


Horrors, and you said absolutely nothing.   :Wink:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I don't suppose that... there's... any... new info... on this....
> 
> Nah, I guess not. Well, that's cool. I'm just chillin, ya know. Just waiting.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, just waiting... and waiting.
> 
> It's no big deal really. I've got oodles of patience. Seriously. Not a problem.
> ...


Yeah, because we all know you're not sitting on the ground with your laptop, looking like this when someone asks if you're still alive. . . 



. . . . . . right?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Is there seriously one hundred eight one pages and four thousand five hundred twenty two post about absolutely NOTHING?!? SMH.


Well, I kind of like the mystery part of it, builds up suspense for the "tower". Also, there has been some pretty cool concepts and possible(fantasy) towers that are being looked here, that I never knew about anyways.

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

> Is there seriously one hundred eight one pages and four thousand five hundred twenty two post about absolutely NOTHING?!? SMH.


You've seriously posted over six HUNDRED times over the course of seven years and I don't recognize your userID?

You must be good at posting about nothing.


/worthless posts are worthless
//worthless

----------


## Bellaboo

> Is there seriously one hundred eight one pages and four thousand five hundred twenty two post about absolutely NOTHING?!? SMH.


This is about the Mystery Tower -  speculation..... and everyone is trying to figure it out. So it's about something.

----------


## CaptDave

> Is there seriously one hundred eight one pages and four thousand five hundred twenty two post about absolutely NOTHING?!? SMH.


What is wrong with it? Is it causing anyone harm? Why not speculate and dream big about OKC? I think it is fun to consider the possibilities even if the thread sometimes gets a little silly. Then, when it is offically announced, we will talk about how it is going to impact the city and move on to watching it rise into the skyline and begin speculating about the next big project.

----------


## Teo9969

The great thing, is that as soon as the tower is announced, it will get it's own thread and in a very real way, will leave this thread to be yet unresolved since there will always be the possibility of a new tower downtown.

Someday, this thread will be 1,000,000 posts long.

----------


## MikeLucky

> The great thing, is that as soon as the tower is announced, it will get it's own thread and in a very real way, will leave this thread to be yet unresolved since there will always be the possibility of a new tower downtown.
> 
> Someday, this thread will be 1,000,000 posts long.


Oh, I thought you were going to say that the great thing is that anyone can make the decision to not click on the thread and read it at all... lol

----------


## Teo9969

> Oh, I thought you were going to say that the great thing is that anyone can make the decision to not click on the thread and read it at all... lol


I'm not sure that's a decision anyone is capable of making. Pretty sure this thread does the same thing to your brain as cocaine.

----------


## BigD Misey

I hope it doesn't take too long I'm about to lose it!

----------


## kevinpate

> I hope it doesn't take too long I'm about to lose it!



Oh pish posh.  If you can make it to 4530+ posts, you can hang in there for another 4500 or so.  Take long, slow breaths, and maybe a jigger or three of good rum. You'll be just fine.

----------


## jedicurt

> Is there seriously one hundred eight one pages and four thousand five hundred twenty two post about absolutely NOTHING?!? SMH.


just like the entire politics section!

----------


## edcrunk

This thread has been entertaining to me. SMH as well.... Up and down tho, not side to side.

----------


## Just the facts

This thread is nothing - wait until something is officially announced and we get 11,407 posts like the Devon Tower thread - which for the first time in over 4 years fell off the front page.

----------


## jccouger

> Comment From BethanySooner  
> Last week you responded to a question regarding the Mystery tower by saying that back in March your answer as to who the company would be is different than today. Either the former frontrunner has fallen off the map or there are indeed currently two towers in the process of being erected. Which is it?  
> 
> 11:47 
> Steve Lackmeyer: 
>  The front-runner was knocked out by a competitor. No one willingly dropped out.


Sounds like pretty good odds 2 towers are in the works in one way or another.

----------


## tillyato

12:36 Comment From Nick  
In your opinion.. and JUST in your opinion. DO you see a Stage Center announcement in the next 30, 60, or 90 days?

12:36 Steve Lackmeyer: Or sooner?

----------


## catch22

Seems like we've heard the 30 days or less each month since February.

----------


## Praedura

> Seems like we've heard the 30 days or less each month since February.


Yeah, no kidding.

It's like that old vaudeville routine where the comic's hat falls off, so he walks over to get it, and just as he's bending down to pick it up, his foot kicks it further down. And so on.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Seems like we've heard the 30 days or less each month since February.


No ****.  It's starting to get really old.

----------


## catch22

> Yeah, no kidding.
> 
> It's like that old vaudeville routine where the comic's hat falls off, so he walks over to get it, and just as he's bending down to pick it up, his foot kicks it further down. And so on.


Just stirring up enough interest to keep people clicking. No one will break this story. Whoever is behind this development will call all of the local and state press organizations to a press conference at the Stage Center. Everyone will have a story on the same day.

----------


## Teo9969

If anyone is going to "break the story" it will probably be OKC Talk. I can't imagine a reputable news entity would be willing to piss off a company in a position to build a $250M+ structure by preempting their press release.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Just stirring up enough interest to keep people clicking. No one will break this story. Whoever is behind this development will call all of the local and state press organizations to a press conference at the Stage Center. Everyone will have a story on the same day.


I'd guess that if anyone breaks the story, it will be OKCTalk. That's how it usually goes.

Edit: Teo beat me with the exact same thought. Ha

----------


## Teo9969

Have we seen anything that might relate to the easement issue in public documents?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Have we seen anything that might relate to the easement issue in public documents?


nope .. that will come to the planning commission

----------


## MikeLucky

> 12:36 Comment From Nick  
> In your opinion.. and JUST in your opinion. DO you see a Stage Center announcement in the next 30, 60, or 90 days?
> 
> 12:36 Steve Lackmeyer: Or sooner?


Lol...  it's a classic case of hyping...

See Steve could have answered that question with, "Well, there's a chance that it could actually be sooner than 30 days.  So, my expectation would be closer to 30 days than the 90 days."

But, that puts him on the hook for too much. His answer was merely a question... and, the actual fact of the matter is that he has actually said NOTHING of any real substance with that sort of response.  If nothing ever happens he can always say that he never specifically said there would be an announcement in 30 days/60 days etc.

To me his answer comes of as nothing more than leading for the sake of readership or some sense of keeping himself in the position of knowledge, so to speak...  Given how he's suddenly turned on this board, his answers and attitude just come of snarky as hell to me now.  Actually it's worse than snarky... it's like that petulant child that has something the other child wants but he knows it and does everything he can to not only deny the other child, but also keep reminding him that there is an "inequality."

----------


## adaniel

I think some of you are taking this way too seriously. I doubt anyone (Steve included) know much more than what has already been said. Its just fun speculation at this point.

Relax kids, its coming.

----------


## dankrutka

I disagree, WichitaSooner. Steve's job is different from a message board. He has to wait until everything is final to provide the solid info in his news story. The fact that he provides hints based on his knowledge is great, but he has to do so without taking away from the actual upcoming story. All he's doing is what he can in a new media environment where we all want more information yesterday. Besides, Steve has repeatedly provide accurate and helpful hints.

----------


## Pete

Yeah, I really think an announcement could come anytime now, but it could also be delayed due to various complexities.

Even people directly involved don't have a specific timeline.

My bet is that we'll know before the end of July.

----------


## Praedura

> Yeah, I really think an announcement could come anytime now, but it could also be delayed due to various complexities.
> 
> Even people directly involved don't have a specific timeline.
> 
> My bet is that we'll know before the end of July.


Yeah, and at the end of July, you'll be saying "we should know by the end of  August"...

Just kidding (I sincerely hope)

----------


## HangryHippo

> Yeah, I really think an announcement could come anytime now, but it could also be delayed due to various complexities.
> 
> Even people directly involved don't have a specific timeline.
> 
> My bet is that we'll know before the end of July.


Pete, didn't you say not too long ago that you'd heard the only thing holding up the official announcement was the release of the California Ave. easement?

----------


## Praedura

Just to be clear, I'm not mad or anything. In fact, I'm basically very happy because I'm quite certain this this tower is going to happen.

It's just that hearing the umpteenth gazillion "we should have an announcement soon", which is then perpetually kicked down the road, can really frazzle the nerves at some point.

Yes, I understand the complexities and uncertainties involved, etc.
I also understand that I may lose my mind at some point.  :Eek: 

 :Smile:

----------


## Pete

> Pete, didn't you say not too long ago that you'd heard the only thing holding up the official announcement was the release of the California Ave. easement?


Yes.

Don't know where they stand with getting that resolved.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Yes.
> 
> Don't know where they stand with getting that resolved.


What exactly does it mean to release this easement?  What will it do for the mystery company?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I'm going on vacation end of July thru that first weekend in August.  I'm hoping the announcement is after so my vacation time will not be ruined by me logging on to okctalk everyday, lol.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> What exactly does it mean to release this easement?  What will it do for the mystery company?


allows them to build on that part of the lot

----------


## Praedura

> I'm going on vacation end of July thru that first weekend in August.  I'm hoping the announcement is after so my vacation time will not be ruined by me logging on to okctalk everyday, lol.


Don't kid yourself... you'll be logging on everyday anyway!  :Evilsmile:

----------


## Kokopelli

Steve also had a bad prediction for fans of the Turbinomics building.

12:21 Comment From Bob What are the chances of ever seeing Turbinomic in downtown Okc?

12:22 Steve Lackmeyer: Zero. Unless Rand Elliott wins a $2 billion lottery. Then it's on!

----------


## jccouger

Yeah, that is a huge pipe dream. The biggest clue that gives it away that it will never be built is that he gave the presentation at OSU.

----------


## Kokopelli

> Yeah, that is a huge pipe dream. The biggest clue that gives it away that it will never be built is that he gave the presentation at OSU.


Ouch!! And you don't even have the word "Sooner" or "OU" as part of your user name.   :Smiley122:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Yeah, that is a huge pipe dream. The biggest clue that gives it away that it will never be built is that he gave the presentation at OSU.


He himself is a product of oSu so don't kid yourself.  I do agree that it will never happen do to what it would cost though.

----------


## SOONER8693

> Ouch!! And you don't even have the word "Sooner" or "OU" as part of your user name.


Because if you do have "Sooner" or "OU" as part of your user name, some people on here automatically consider you a biased dumbass and discount anything you say.

----------


## hoya

> Because if you do have "Sooner" or "OU" as part of your user name, some people on here automatically consider you a biased dumbass and discount anything you say.


Well screw those guys.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Well screw those guys.


You're safe though since you like Georgetown ;-)

----------


## lasomeday

The oge centerpoint mlp is supposed to Close in the second or third quarter.  This fits the next 30 day timeline Steve alluded to.  I have heard they are hoping to be done in july with the close.  Also it says the governance will be 50/50 with oge and centerpoint.  It also says Oge will have 60 % of the distribution rights.

CenterPoint Energy, OGE Energy Corp. and ArcLight Capital to Combine Assets to Form Leading Midstream Partnership

----------


## yukong

> What exactly does it mean to release this easement?  What will it do for the mystery company?


Well depends...if by "release" they mean "vacate" then it is a little more involved.  To vacate an easement, there must be District Court action.  First, the City will have to close the easement, then foreclose any right to reopen the easement, then have an abstractor determine all persons required by law to be notified of the vacation.  Then the party requesting vacation of the easement must file a petition in district court, give notice to the city, all utility companies, and to all property owners within 300 feet of the street/easement being vacated.  Notice to the public must also be printed in the newspaper.  All these notices must be made at least 30 days before a hearing on the petition.  There will be opportunity for protest by anyone required to be notified by the movant, and there will be a hearing in district court.  It is not a difficult thing, but it is involved and somewhat time consuming. 

Now if "release" means only to "close" that can be done by the city council by ordinance.  However, the city would always retain the right to reopen that easement unless or until someone moves to vacate the easement.  

So, until someone clarifies what is meant by "release" then we won't really know.  I would assume that "release" here means "vacate" but I'm not sure.  But if we are waiting for a "vacation" of the easement to know...then there will be council action, and then a court action, with notice to the public.  So we will know something then.

----------


## Snowman

> Now if "release" means only to "close" that can be done by the city council by ordinance. However, the city would always retain the right to reopen that easement unless or until someone moves to vacate the easement.


Isn't that the section that is already closed with vehicle barriers on each end?

----------


## catch22

Would they be able to release it to get the project going, and then later close it during construction?

----------


## Teo9969

> Isn't that the section that is already closed with vehicle barriers on each end?


The street is closed, but the easement is not.

----------


## Teo9969

> Would they be able to release it to get the project going, and then later close it during construction?


See below




> Now if "release" means only to "close" that can be done by the city council by ordinance. However, the city would always retain the right to reopen that easement unless or until someone moves to vacate the easement.


So it sounds like they could go ahead and close the easement and then after plans have been officially announced, then they can move to have it vacated. That way they don't have to spill the beans before the announcement.

----------


## Spartan

Who wants to bet whether the announcement will come by the end of July?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Would love to see something like this. 

Skyscrapers of Warsaw: Lilium Tower

----------


## UnFrSaKn

That one is proposed but these are under construction in Warsaw.

----------


## yukong

> The street is closed, but the easement is not.


The city may have blocked the street to vehicular traffic but that is not the same legally as "closing" an easement. Closing the easement allows abutting property owners the ability to utilize the surface but reserves the right for the city to reopen it. So just because the city blocked the street doesn't mean the easement has ever been closed officially.  It may have been closed, but the street being blocked doesn't mean the easement was closed.

----------


## Teo9969

> The city may have blocked the street to vehicular traffic but that is not the same legally as "closing" an easement. Closing the easement allows abutting property owners the ability to utilize the surface but reserves the right for the city to reopen it. So just because the city blocked the street doesn't mean the easement has ever been closed officially.  It may have been closed, but the street being blocked doesn't mean the easement was closed.


So, in other words...




> The street is closed, but the easement is not.


 :Smile:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Would love to see something like this. 
> 
> Skyscrapers of Warsaw: Lilium Tower


Don't think JFT would approve, but I like it!!! lol

----------


## Urbanized

But - although it could still be greatly improved - I'll bet he'd like the Marriott next door a lot more. The same approach could have been taken to the condo building. Sexy tower shapes and good street-level interaction are in no way mutually exclusive; it's just that tower architects rarely pay attention to the street.

----------


## Spartan

Warsaw is a really cool city. But the street scenes can sometimes be bleak.

----------


## Praedura

Magical Mystery Tower

(roll up)

----------


## bchris02

I had a dream about the Mystery tower last night lol.  I ran into Steve at Target and asked him about it and he said it would be a 951 footer and would be built for the new Centerpoint/OG&E partnership.  He showed me a picture of it and it looked similar to the Columbia center in Seattle.  Then I woke up.

----------


## stratosphere

> Steve also had a bad prediction for fans of the Turbinomics building.
> 
> 12:21 Comment From Bob What are the chances of ever seeing Turbinomic in downtown Okc?
> 
> 12:22 Steve Lackmeyer: Zero. Unless Rand Elliott wins a $2 billion lottery. Then it's on!


 :Frown: 




> Yeah, that is a huge pipe dream. The biggest clue that gives it away that it will never be built is that he gave the presentation at OSU.


 :Smiley181:

----------


## Just the facts

I love being consistent enough in my message that people know exactly what I will say, think, or feel about something before I can even chime in.  Plutonic Panda and Urbanized both hit it right on the head.  Now if we can get politicians to be that consistent.  :Smile:

----------


## dankrutka

> I love being consistent enough in my message that people know exactly what I will say, think, or feel about something before I can even chime in.  Plutonic Panda and Urbanized both hit it right on the head.  Now if we can get politicians to be that consistent.


There are politicians that are consistent. They're called ideologues. That's why people like Ron Paul and Ralph Nader, for better or worse, are generally consistent in their positions.

----------


## dankrutka

Either this has nothing to do with the rumored mystery tower or everyone was really wrong on the company:

AT&T set to unveil plans | News OK

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Thought about posting this here but wasn't sure.

----------


## dankrutka

> Thought about posting this here but wasn't sure.


All the big players are at the announcement so that's a positive sign regardless of the news.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Related news:

AT&T hopes to bolster mobile life with new innovation centers | Mobile - CNET News

----------


## dankrutka

Interesting, but those facilities don't seem to employ many people unlike the "significant employment growth" expected for OKC. Hmmmmmm....

----------


## Praedura

AT&T = Magical Mystery Tower???

I dunno. Doesn't seem likely given what we know -- but then again, what DON'T we know?

It would be quite the turn of events if it did turn out to be them. Talk about flying under the radar! They weren't on anybody's short list (or even long list, at that) for tower contenders.

Anyway, the announcement is probably for something else. All I know is that with all the big-wigs in attendance, it must be something really good for OKC.

----------


## dankrutka

Could it be a large call center? 

AT&T pledges restored jobs if merger is approved, Oklahoma minority business advocates back federal regulatory consent

----------


## Praedura

> Could it be a large call center?


Ugh, that would be extremely underwhelming. I hope it's something far more interesting than that.

----------


## Snowman

> Could it be a large call center?


I really doubt a call center is going to be placed in a new tower downtown, they tend to be pretty cheap buildings and the go to for placing for starting a call center (Shepard Mall) will have plenty of space soon when more than half of the space being leased will be vacated by SSA, OHCA and a few smaller agency finish the buildings they have under construction or renovation.

----------


## catch22

> Either this has nothing to do with the rumored mystery tower or everyone was really wrong on the company:
> 
> AT&T set to unveil plans | News OK


http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...-okc-jobs.html Once again Pete has a story first!

----------


## Thundercitizen

Maybe my ol' high school lunch buddy, Randy Stephenson (AT&T CEO), decided to do something in his hometown, after all.

----------


## dankrutka

> I really doubt a call center is going to be placed in a new tower downtown, they tend to be pretty cheap buildings and the go to for placing for starting a call center (Shepard Mall) will have plenty of space soon when more than half of the space being leased will be vacated by SSA, OHCA and a few smaller agency finish the buildings they have under construction or renovation.


Yeah. I thought it went without saying that if its a call center that no tower is being built.

----------


## Pete

From the articles Sid posted, looks like their recent trend is to sell buildings than lease them back in order to raise capital.

So, it wouldn't make sense that they would be building a new, expensive building in the middle of downtown.

----------


## G.Walker

I don't know, but its starting to make sense. Steve did say in the past that the company building new tower was a company no one mentioned, and AT&T was never mentioned until now. The announcement would fall in the timeline Steve and others predicted. And with Steve making the published report means it has something to do with downtown. Now if it was reported by Richard Mize, then I would think it would be something outside of downtown, because he usually reports on business happenings outside of downtown. But then you have the Governor, the Mayor, Roy Williams in attendance, it has to be something big. I doubt they would make this big deal over a 100 employee call center.

----------


## Pete

They made a big deal (with the governor and mayor) when Dell announced it's 250 jobs, which is pretty much a call center.

----------


## bchris02

I have a hard time seeing this being the mystery tower, but it would be great for economic diversity to have another significant corporate presence downtown that is not oil and gas. I am kind of hoping that's what this is.

----------


## G.Walker

> They made a big deal (with the governor and mayor) when Dell announced it's 250 jobs, which is pretty much a call center.


I don't see Steve reporting on something that has nothing to do with downtown, and the phrase "unveil plans" makes me wonder.

----------


## catch22

> I don't see Steve reporting on something that has nothing to do with downtown, and the phrase "unveil plans" makes me wonder.


I think you're reading into it too much. We'll find something out in a few days.

----------


## Pete

Steve reports mainly but not exclusively on downtown.

He's done quite a few stories and work around the Chesapeake real estate, for example.

----------


## BDP

> They made a big deal (with the governor and mayor) when Dell announced it's 250 jobs, which is pretty much a call center.


True. It's entirely possible that the chamber and governor are appearing not necessarily because it's some real game changer of a deal, but more so because of _who_ is making the announcement. Hopefully, it is something significant, but the AT&Ts and Dell's of the world are used to public displays of appreciation when they add jobs, even if they won't have much effect on the median income stat, so I'm not sure at this point how much we can make out of the fact that the political players are showing up for this one.

----------


## jccouger

Also AT&Ts CEO won't be in attendance, so I doubt it is THAT big.

----------


## circuitboard

> They made a big deal (with the governor and mayor) when Dell announced it's 250 jobs, which is pretty much a call center.


As a former Dell employee, this is an inaccurate statement. Dell pays even its most basic call center employee very well, and in addition the facility in OKC actually houses many non call center jobs; Project managers, program directors, engineers, and marketing jobs. What is even more crazy, is the advanced techs taking calls make about 65-75 a year. The typical call center manager at Dell makes 60-92 based on experience. I think Dell gets underestimated on its economic impact because of the "call center" label and when it lays off Sales employees. I miss the great culture at Dell, it was really a great place to work.

----------


## Bellaboo

> As a former Dell employee, this is an inaccurate statement. Dell pays even its most basic call center employee very well, and in addition the facility in OKC actually houses many non call center jobs; Project managers, program directors, engineers, and marketing jobs. What is even more crazy, is the advanced techs taking calls make about 65-75 a year. The typical call center manager at Dell makes 60-92 based on experience. I think Dell gets underestimated on its economic impact because of the "call center" label and when it lays off Sales employees. I miss the great culture at Dell, it was really a great place to work.


A friend of mine worked in HR and was making 75 a year. She only left because her husband transferred to a job out of state, but she said she loved her job and actually stayed for 4 months after he moved for a different job.

----------


## Pete

> As a former Dell employee, this is an inaccurate statement. Dell pays even its most basic call center employee very well, and in addition the facility in OKC actually houses many non call center jobs; Project managers, program directors, engineers, and marketing jobs. What is even more crazy, is the advanced techs taking calls make about 65-75 a year. The typical call center manager at Dell makes 60-92 based on experience. I think Dell gets underestimated on its economic impact because of the "call center" label and when it lays off Sales employees. I miss the great culture at Dell, it was really a great place to work.


Thanks for the clarification.

I apologize if my previous remarks mischaracterized the Dell jobs.

----------


## Thundercitizen

I have two friends who currently work at Dell. One is a transfer from London via Houston. Decent pay, excellent employer/company.

They say its pretty much a call center.

 :Smile:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

A lot of those articles (posted in the other thread) are from 2008.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I have two friends who currently work at Dell. One is a transfer from London via Houston. Decent pay, excellent employer/company.
> 
> They say its pretty much a call center.


They may say it's pretty much a call center, but I have friends who work there who don't handle issues with Dell products.  No, they sell Dell products.  One of them even works from home and maybe goes to the office but once or twice a week.  Every business has phone business.

----------


## jn1780

> They may say it's pretty much a call center, but I have friends who work there who don't handle issues with Dell products.  No, they sell Dell products.  One of them even works from home and maybe goes to the office but once or twice a week.  Every business has phone business.


I would say half of the IT industry is "Call Center" or basically keeping someone one the other line while you dial in. lol

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I would say half of the IT industry is "Call Center" or basically keeping someone one the other line while you dial in. lol


I get what he's saying, but we do over the phone orders at my work and then the customer comes in to do physical fittings and trying our inventory on...since all of our stores have phones and customers use them to call us, does that deem us a "call center", LOL... think about it in good jest ;-)

----------


## OKCRT

Could this really be the new tower everyone has waiting for? It seems that AT&T was a big seller of their properties in 2008. Well maybe OKC is where they have decided to own and build.

----------


## Spartan

> Could this really be the new tower everyone has waiting for? It seems that AT&T was a big seller of their properties in 2008. Well maybe OKC is where they have decided to own and build.


"OKC, Look we got a 700 ft tall call center, we got it all!"

----------


## OKCRT

> "OKC, Look we got a 700 ft tall call center, we got it all!"



Maybe there's more to it than a call center? But hey,if they want to build a 700 ft. call center in downtown then let it sprout.

----------


## GoThunder

Steve's new Twitter profile picture is him standing in front of a skyscraper.  Coincidence or something else?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Perhaps but that's an old photo.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Perhaps but that's an old photo.


Ahhhh, but the timing.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Could ATT be that North American HQ that will be relocating?

----------


## hoya

That would be such huge news that I can't even fathom it.

----------


## Teo9969

> Could ATT be that North American HQ that will be relocating?


I'm just going to laugh and pretend I didn't read this.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I'm just going to laugh and pretend I didn't read this.


How many times do we have to go over this?!  This thread is pure speculation.  As I stated in the other thread, my feeling is that the AT&T announcement will be nothing greater than the GE Global Research Center.  Feel free to laugh on though...

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I'm just going to laugh and pretend I didn't read this.


Well, you can pretend all you want, but in reality you read it. This is a thread for speculation and it seems a few people have to be reminded of that. No matter though, I'll just laugh and pretend I didn't read your post if AT&T, does in fact build a tower.

----------


## Teo9969

> Well, you can pretend all you want, but in reality you read it. This is a thread for speculation and it seems a few people have to be reminded of that. No matter though, I'll just laugh and pretend I didn't read your post if AT&T, does in fact build a tower.


A tower wouldn't suffice, even if it were the super tall you wanted. They have to abandon Dallas to build their headquarters in OKC to meet the speculation on that post.

And I will be MORE than happy to come back and eat crow.

----------


## Bellaboo

> A tower wouldn't suffice, even if it were the super tall you wanted. They have to abandon Dallas to build their headquarters in OKC to meet the speculation on that post.
> 
> And I will be MORE than happy to come back and eat crow.


It could be a different division HQ of some type ? We'll know something in 24 hours. 'unveil Plans' has me thinking this could be the MT...AT&T is big enough to do it.

----------


## Teo9969

> It could be a different division HQ of some type ? We'll know something in 24 hours. 'unveil Plans' has me thinking this could be the MT...AT&T is big enough to do it.


I was only trying to highlight the absurdity of the speculation that AT&T is moving their "North American HQ" here. Any speculation is "valid" in this thread...but not all of it is useful. I mean, we're at a point that it would make a lot of sense for ATT to be building a tower. 

1. Timeline works out quite well.

2. There were, what, 5 inquiries into the SC site: OGE, Continental, MLP, MidFirst are the names that made the most sense. That leaves at least one more space, and I don't see why AT&T wouldn't be that space.

3. It could fit the "consolidation" bit of information if they move their operations from Memorial to downtown. And it could fit the "local" bit of information if local is pared down to only mean "a company already located in OKC"

4. CEO is from Oklahoma

I still don't think it is AT&T, but it's certainly a viable guess. The North American HQ bit is still laughable. Fortune 25 companies don't move. And we are hearing that the CEO is not going to be at this announcement...that's probably a pretty good indication that this is going to be rather tame.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I was only trying to highlight the absurdity of the speculation that AT&T is moving their "North American HQ" here. Any speculation is "valid" in this thread...but not all of it is useful. I mean, we're at a point that it would make a lot of sense for ATT to be building a tower. 
> 
> 1. Timeline works out quite well.
> 
> 2. There were, what, 5 inquiries into the SC site: OGE, Continental, MLP, MidFirst are the names that made the most sense. That leaves at least one more space, and I don't see why AT&T wouldn't be that space.
> 
> 3. It could fit the "consolidation" bit of information if they move their operations from Memorial to downtown. And it could fit the "local" bit of information if local is pared down to only mean "a company already located in OKC"
> 
> 4. CEO is from Oklahoma
> ...


Could be a good thing, may not want to look like a homer. It could be an HQ for a particular unit.....down to 23 hours now..lol

----------


## Just the facts

Umm, Fortune 25 companies do move.  In fact, AT&T just moved to Dallas 5 years ago.  Also, an AT&T executive was just named President of the State Chamber of Commerce.

----------


## soonerguru

> Umm, Fortune 25 companies do move.  In fact, AT&T just moved to Dallas 5 years ago.  Also, an AT&T executive was just named President of State Chamber of Commerce.


I was thinking the same thing. I remember when AT&T bolted San Antonio for Dallas. But because that was so recent, it's hard to imagine they would move the HQ again.

----------


## BDP

> Also, an AT&T executive was just named President of the State Chamber of Commerce.


Yeah, is that dude going tomorrow?

(Just for reference: AT&T Oklahoma President named chairman of State Chamber | News OK)

----------


## Just the facts

> I was thinking the same thing. I remember when AT&T bolted San Antonio for Dallas. But because that was so recent, it's hard to imagine they would move the HQ again.


They moved NYC to San Antonio about 3 years before that as part of the merger with SWB.

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## Plutonic Panda

> A tower wouldn't suffice, even if it were the super tall you wanted. They have to abandon Dallas to build their headquarters in OKC to meet the speculation on that post.
> 
> And I will be MORE than happy to come back and eat crow.


How many employees do they have in Dallas, do you know?

----------


## okcpulse

Here is something to chew on... Why would Steve Lackmeyer post a business article about AT&T when he does downtown beats?

----------


## Just the facts

> How many employees do they have in Dallas, do you know?


About 5,000

----------


## Pete

As previously noted, Steve isn't exclusive to downtown, having followed Chesapeake's real estate dealings extensively, for example.

However, he is primarily focused downtown and that's a good sign IMO.

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## Plutonic Panda

> About 5,000


Little more than than Pete's number

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## dmoor82

getting closer! Once this first tower is announced,there will be more, so is it safe to say that this thread may be around for a LONG time?

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## OKCRT

> getting closer! Once this first tower is announced,there will be more, so is it safe to say that this thread may be around for a LONG time?


They domino effect. Lets get er done! So will tomorrow bring a new tower? Is that what some are thinking here?

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## HangryHippo

> They domino effect. Lets get er done! So will tomorrow bring a new tower? Is that what some are thinking here?


In another thread, Pete said that he's hearing this announcement will be ~140 project manager jobs starting at 40K per year. Doesn't seem like this will have anything to do with the tower.

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## Plutonic Panda

Maybe they're going to be 140 new jobs and other jobs will be relocated?

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## dmoor82

The AT&T announcement will not involve a dt tower deal! I think some people on here have pretty much nailed it on who will build a tower. The deals are going on as We speak, and things, details are getting ironed out! I don't think it will be too much longer for an official press release!

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## dmoor82

I also don't think I'm crazy to say that I believe OKC is on the verge of an actual BOOM! Think Austin, Charlotte but with less population growth!

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## Bellaboo

Okay,

Just talked to my neighbor whose been with AT&T for years, and he said they are announcing a 'college for hire' program. He said that's the rumor he's been hearing. Nothing about a tower......

----------


## OKCRT

> I also don't think I'm crazy to say that I believe OKC is on the verge of an actual BOOM! Think Austin, Charlotte but with less population growth!


I think Boom & pop. growth go hand in hand. So it may be a smaller Boom and smaller pop. growth than Austin & Charlotte, think dynamite VS firecracker or somewhere in between. So do we get a Sonic boom or a backfire?

----------


## bchris02

> I also don't think I'm crazy to say that I believe OKC is on the verge of an actual BOOM! Think Austin, Charlotte but with less population growth!


A boom will create population growth.  It would be nice to see a Charlotte style boom.  In my opinion, the one thing really standing in the way of a population boom is the national image problems this city has.  Most people from out of state, especially from the coasts don't have a very positive image of OKC.  I'll admit coming from Charlotte it has taken a while for me to warm up to it here but I think its finally starting to happen.

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## Spartan

> I was thinking the same thing. I remember when AT&T bolted San Antonio for Dallas. But because that was so recent, it's hard to imagine they would move the HQ again.


AT&T isn't moving, what are they like the 2nd or 3rd largest company in America? That said, I get kind of a weird sadistic kick out of all this left-field mystery tower chatter, almost as much as Steve Lackmeyer, so here's some fuel for the fire...

5 years ago AT&T moved their headquarters further north up I-35 to Dallas. 5 years later, today, AT&T is ready to move their headquarters once again further north up I-35 to OKC.

Your move, Sprint. They're also prone to moving their headquarters within a certain proximity of I-35, and that's a proven fact.

You heart it here first, on OKC Talk. AT&T and Sprint are both behind the mystery tower, thanks to I-35.

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## bombermwc

Bwahahaha......yeah AT&T isn't moving their HQ. But that is quite funny  :Smile:

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## GaryOKC6

It is definately not AT&T building a tower.  But they are moving an operation here which is a win for OKC.

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## Just the facts

Downtown and downtown adjacent OKC is going to grow like a weed because people under 40 are abandoning suburbia, and OKC has a lot of suburbia.  If you aren't seeing it yet in OKC you will be soon.  This growth is also going to happen in places like Plaza District, Brittany, Capitol Hill, Stocktard City, and other neighborhood based urban clusters.

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## bchris02

> Downtown and downtown adjacent OKC is going to grow like a weed because people under 40 are abandoning suburbia, and OKC has a lot of suburbia.  If you aren't seeing it yet in OKC you will be soon.  This growth is also going to happen in places like Plaza District, Brittany, Capitol Hill, Stocktard City, and other neighborhood based urban clusters.


I know a lot of married couples in their mid 20s buying homes in Edmond. I am not so sure all young people are abandoning suburbia. Transplants who move here from out of state however are much more likely to live downtown than in the suburbs.

----------


## Just the facts

That is because they don't have a choice for the most part.  But just wait.  Recent studies show 70% of this demographic don't want to live in sprawl.  As more local developers figure this out you will see the largest and fastest shift in housing America has ever seen.

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## BillyOcean

I am about to move from Nichols Hills to Heritage Hills, but for full disclosure, it is for greed.....I am getting a historic home for a really good price.  I am planning on fixing it up and parlaying it with the Uptown/Midtown renaissance, selling for a large profit to move back to NH.  Maybe my time down there will change my mind, only time will tell.

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## CaptDave

> I know a lot of married couples in their mid 20s buying homes in Edmond. I am not so sure all young people are abandoning suburbia. Transplants who move here from out of state however are much more likely to live downtown than in the suburbs.


You cannot discount the public school system as being one of the primary reasons people choose to live in Edmond and other OKC suburbs. I know there are good and excellent schools in OKC, but until OKCPS overall can be considered near equal to these suburban school districts, people will do what they believe to be best for their kids' education. I hope OKCPS will get its act together soon - this will be one of the primary obstacles to residential growth downtown and in the close in OKC neighborhoods. It is a vicious circle, public schools with challenges lead to abandonment of those schools and neighborhoods which further reduces funding......

----------


## Richard at Remax

I am 29 and about to leave Edgemere Park for Edmond. Loved it for the last 4 years, but I am getting ready to start family within the next few years and since I work in Edmond I will be close to that as well. A no brainer for me. And I will still spend prob the same about of time in the city center so its a win win for me.

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## CaptDave

> I am 29 and about to leave Edgemere Park for Edmond. Loved it for the last 4 years, but I am getting ready to start family within the next few years and since I work in Edmond I will be close to that as well. A no brainer for me. And I will still spend prob the same about of time in the city center so its a win win for me.


If my kids were finished with school I would move to Edgemere in a second. It is my favorite OKC neighborhood.

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## jedicurt

> If my kids were finished with school I would move to Edgemere in a second. It is my favorite OKC neighborhood.


sorry... went blank for a second.  Edgemere?  that's around 36th and walker right?  just wanting to make sure i'm thinking correctly

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## Richard at Remax

> If my kids were finished with school I would move to Edgemere in a second. It is my favorite OKC neighborhood.


Yes, in between walker and I-235 just south of 36th. 

I love it there. But for the foreseeable future it's not what's right for me. But if you change your mind, in August there will be a good deal going on the market on Edgemere Ct

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## adaniel

> I am 29 and about to leave Edgemere Park for Edmond. Loved it for the last 4 years, but I am getting ready to start family within the next few years and since I work in Edmond I will be close to that as well. A no brainer for me. And I will still spend prob the same about of time in the city center so its a win win for me.


Not that its any of business, but property values are on enough of an upward trajectory in places like Edgemere Park. If you aren't having kids for a few years, why leave so soon? You could be missing out on some serious $$ in the future.

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## Richard at Remax

Well considering that I bought my house on the high end ($140's/sq ft) and that similar houses sold recently have been selling in the high 130's to low 140's, the data suggests that the are has plateaued somewhat, but still holding strong. 

also sorry about the thread highjack, if Pete could move this to the I don't want to live downtown thread I think it would be more appropriate there

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## Mr. Cotter

You will continue to see young families buy in Edmond for quite some time.  A nice, relatively new house can be had for under $200K.  For most of the young families buying there, it's familiar, and similar to what they grew up with.  Many of these houses may not hold up that well, but the young families buying them now will be long gone before that's a problem.  This will continue until it's unsustainable (by which I mean that they actually feel that it is unsustainable, not the recognition that it will be unsustainable at some point in the future). 

Me? I'm 28, married, and just bought a 75 year old house in a beautiful urban core neighborhood.  I work downtown, and my wife just took an excellent job inside the urban core.  We plan on sending our children to our excellent neighborhood public elementary school, and working hard to utilize the best charter schools the city has past there (my wife's excellent new job will be a big help here...).  We're young, and we've gone all in.  We don't plan to leave the city center, and if the bus system improved I would ditch my car in a hurry.  Reaction from our friends has been mixed: some are scared to see a billboard in Spanish on their way to our house, others love the historic details our home has and the easy access to everything.

There's a shift happening, but it's very slow - especially in places like OKC with a long history of sprawl and a perceived lack of affordable quality options inside the core.  If the Mystery Tower brings new jobs downtown, hopefully we'll see more families choosing to live near their great job in a beautiful new building.

----------


## betts

> I am 29 and about to leave Edgemere Park for Edmond. Loved it for the last 4 years, but I am getting ready to start family within the next few years and since I work in Edmond I will be close to that as well. A no brainer for me. And I will still spend prob the same about of time in the city center so its a win win for me.


The best argument is that you have a job in Edmond.  That makes sense. But if millennials want to live in the city, they have to improve the schools themselves.  The teachers in OKC public schools are just as good as those in Edmond. It's parental involvement that improves schools and I would think Edgemere Park has the potential for great parental involvement.

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## adaniel

> Well considering that I bought my house on the high end ($140's/sq ft) and that similar houses sold recently have been selling in the high 130's to low 140's, the data suggests that the are has plateaued somewhat, but still holding strong. 
> 
> also sorry about the thread highjack, if Pete could move this to the I don't want to live downtown thread I think it would be more appropriate there


You are right, at $140/ sq ft., that's probably about as high as a neighborhood in OKC not named Deep Deuce can stand. Good luck with selling! 




> You will continue to see young families buy in Edmond for quite some time.  A nice, relatively new house can be had for under $200K.  For most of the young families buying there, it's familiar, and similar to what they grew up with.  Many of these houses may not hold up that well, but the young families buying them now will be long gone before that's a problem.  This will continue until it's unsustainable (by which I mean that they actually feel that it is unsustainable, not the recognition that it will be unsustainable at some point in the future). 
> 
> Me? I'm 28, married, and just bought a 75 year old house in a beautiful urban core neighborhood.  I work downtown, and my wife just took an excellent job inside the urban core.  We plan on sending our children to our excellent neighborhood public elementary school, and working hard to utilize the best charter schools the city has past there (my wife's excellent new job will be a big help here...).  We're young, and we've gone all in.  We don't plan to leave the city center, and if the bus system improved I would ditch my car in a hurry.  Reaction from our friends has been mixed: some are scared to see a billboard in Spanish on their way to our house, others love the historic details our home has and the easy access to everything.
> 
> There's a shift happening, but it's very slow - especially in places like OKC with a long history of sprawl and a perceived lack of affordable quality options inside the core.  If the Mystery Tower brings new jobs downtown, hopefully we'll see more families choosing to live near their great job in a beautiful new building.


Good for you for trying to stick with the city with kids. I don't have kids myself, and I think it takes some serious commitment to have your kids in OKCPS. I won't blame anyone who is hesitant in doing so. 

We have an Edmond set at my office in Midtown. They are constantly complaining about traffic and how bad it is getting and say things like, "if it weren't for my kids I wouldn't be doing this." Given just how concentrated jobs and entertainment are in the CBD and surrounding area, I think you would have more people consider the city, even with kids, if there was more infill development in the urban core. I am surprised and a bit disappointed to see how little there is outside of the immediate DT/Midtown/Deep Deuce area.   

As for me, a single male under the age of 30 who is in the market for a place, I have no desire to go north of 63rd. I love OKC, but there is way too much of the "you're a weirdo for being 27 and not married" crowd up there for me.

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## Just the facts

In 20 years 80% of households won't have children.  The babyboom is over.

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## Praedura

Cmon people! This thread is for ridiculous tower fantasies and speculation. Not suburban-vs-urban living arguments.

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## Thundercitizen

Any word on "The Call Center" announcement today @ 10:00?

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## Bellaboo

> Any word on "The Call Center" announcement today @ 10:00?


Go read the AT&T thread.......

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## vaflyer

> In 20 years 80% of households won't have children.  The babyboom is over.


The large generation in their 20's will start having kids in the next ten years so this comment is just ridiculous.  Many people can have reasonable discussions while some cannot. After a reading post like this, I can understand why Steve has taken a temporary break from this forum (to our loss).

Now this same discussion (urban vs suburban) has taken place in many threads (with no resolution), so can we return to speculating about the mystery tower(s).

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## macfoucin

> Any word on "The Call Center" announcement today @ 10:00?


AT&T to add 100 management jobs in Oklahoma City | News OK

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## Thundercitizen

> Go read the AT&T thread.......


.................oh........

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## Pete

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...tml#post658569

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## Just the facts

> Cmon people! This thread is for ridiculous tower fantasies and speculation. Not suburban-vs-urban living arguments.


But this is what is going to drive downtown towers in the future.  I am sitting in downtown Atlanta right now.  For every new office tower under construction there 10 residential towers under construction.

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## Just the facts

> The large generation in their 20's will start having kids in the next ten years so this comment is just ridiculous


That is not my stat.  That comes from the US census.  Currently only about 34% of all households have children.

Census reveals plummeting U.S. birthrates - USATODAY.com 

Oklahoma homebuilders are figuratively and literally building homes for a dying breed.

----------


## Rover

EVERY thread has to turn into the same drum beat.  Sheesh.

----------


## vaflyer

> That is not my stat.  That comes from the US census.  Currently only about 34% of all households have children.
> 
> Census reveals plummeting U.S. birthrates - USATODAY.com 
> 
> Oklahoma homebuilders are figuratively and literally building homes for a dying breed.


Nice article but is does NOT say that "(i)n 20 years 80% of households won't have children" as you have claimed.

----------


## Just the facts

Fair enough Rover.  The point has been made so back to a mystery tower.

Some people think downtown towers will come from companies and some of us think it will be driven by population changes.

----------


## Rover

Creative interpretation.  LOL

If you look at the map of forecasted growth in children, OKC is in the +2.6 to +30 percent growth.  So, if the discussion is about OKC, it REALLY doesn't apply.  

Much of the negative growth area is in rural and low population areas, except for the far northeast.  We will have more than enough children to fill all these super-tall towers in OKC downtown.  Lots of tricycles on the sidewalks in all the great mixed use urban areas downtown.  

Hope the new tower has a Toys R Us on the ground floor.

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## OKCisOK4me

I'm still betting the over on a tower announcement if my vacation (late July-early August) is the over under.  I'm better it will be announced before major colleges start school back up though.

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## Just the facts

At this point I would be happy if the year started with a '2'.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> At this point I would be happy if the year started with a '2'.


You mean the month? Lol

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## G.Walker

We were supposed to have announcement back in March, but now we are looking at August, next thing you know, they will say we will have announcement before the end of the year, lol. I don't think no one really knows when announcement will be made, so that's why I don't feed into timelines anymore, when it happens, it happens.

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## OKCRT

> We were supposed to have announcement back in March, but now we are looking at August, next thing you know, they will say we will have announcement before the end of the year, lol. I don't think no one really knows when announcement will be made, so that's why I don't feed into timelines anymore, when it happens, it happens.


Logged on hoping to seem that AT&T was building a 700 ft+ tower in downtown okc,but.... 

I guess we wait another month to hear about the next possible landlord.

----------


## bombermwc

Back to the thread topic - so i heard that now someone's going to build a tower to hold all the bull that people put on forums. It's gonna be massive!!!!

----------


## SOONER8693

> Back to the thread topic - so i heard that now someone's going to build a tower to hold all the bull that people put on forums. It's gonna be massive!!!!


That will probably be the only tower built. At this point, I don't think there was ever going to be another tower. This nonsense is a line of "BS" that has been perpetuated by a few, including SL, to keep people hanging on their every word and message boards and blogs. If these individuals actually knew something, they could give out something more than "I'm not worried" or "I have it from a reliable source".  Tell people what you really know and quit dicking around about it, so others can go on with other real business or dummy up.

----------


## GoThunder

> That will probably be the only tower built. At this point, I don't think there was ever going to be another tower. This nonsense is a line of "BS" that has been perpetuated by a few, including SL, to keep people hanging on their every word and message boards and blogs. If these individuals actually knew something, they could give out something more than "I'm not worried" or "I have it from a reliable source".  Tell people what you really know and quit dicking around about it, so others can go on with other real business or dummy up.


Dude...Chill. Pill. I can now see why Steve has boycotted this board.

----------


## kevinpate

Ok, everyone who actually postponed doing some real business so you could hang out here in hopes of tower news, raise your hand. 
C'mon now, don't be shy.


Popping into this thread is a bit like getting a 1/2 price Sonic shake after 8. i don't need, it, I can live without it, my day isn't revolving around it, but sometimes it just hits the spot and brings on a smile all the same.

----------


## Bellaboo

> That will probably be the only tower built. At this point, I don't think there was ever going to be another tower. This nonsense is a line of "BS" that has been perpetuated by a few, including SL, to keep people hanging on their every word and message boards and blogs. If these individuals actually knew something, they could give out something more than "I'm not worried" or "I have it from a reliable source".  Tell people what you really know and quit dicking around about it, so others can go on with other real business or dummy up.


No one is making you click on this thread.....read the title again, *'speculation, news and ideas'*.

----------


## BDP

> That will probably be the only tower built. At this point, I don't think there was ever going to be another tower. This nonsense is a line of "BS" that has been perpetuated by a few, including SL, to keep people hanging on their every word and message boards and blogs. If these individuals actually knew something, they could give out something more than "I'm not worried" or "I have it from a reliable source".  Tell people what you really know and quit dicking around about it, so others can go on with other real business or dummy up.


Well, the good news is that what's actually happening downtown is much cooler and more varied than an office tower. Certainly an office tower would help with density while adding even more support for the all amenities in place and planned, and another true relocation to OKC involving a few thousand good jobs would be amazing. But all of the additional housing, shopping, entertainment, and education being added is significant, not to mention the improved infrastructure and impending MAPS 3 projects. These the things that are really breathing life back into the core and making Oklahoma City a more desirable place to live, work, and visit.

----------


## metro

> You will continue to see young families buy in Edmond for quite some time.  A nice, relatively new house can be had for under $200K.  For most of the young families buying there, it's familiar, and similar to what they grew up with.  Many of these houses may not hold up that well, but the young families buying them now will be long gone before that's a problem.  This will continue until it's unsustainable (by which I mean that they actually feel that it is unsustainable, not the recognition that it will be unsustainable at some point in the future). 
> 
> Me? I'm 28, married, and just bought a 75 year old house in a beautiful urban core neighborhood.  I work downtown, and my wife just took an excellent job inside the urban core.  We plan on sending our children to our excellent neighborhood public elementary school, and working hard to utilize the best charter schools the city has past there (my wife's excellent new job will be a big help here...).  We're young, and we've gone all in.  We don't plan to leave the city center, and if the bus system improved I would ditch my car in a hurry.  Reaction from our friends has been mixed: some are scared to see a billboard in Spanish on their way to our house, others love the historic details our home has and the easy access to everything.
> 
> There's a shift happening, but it's very slow - especially in places like OKC with a long history of sprawl and a perceived lack of affordable quality options inside the core.  If the Mystery Tower brings new jobs downtown, hopefully we'll see more families choosing to live near their great job in a beautiful new building.


Same situation with us, go all in (urban), or go to boring suburbia.

----------


## BDP

> We have an Edmond set at my office in Midtown. They are constantly complaining about traffic and how bad it is getting and say things like, "if it weren't for my kids I wouldn't be doing this."


I've always found it funny that someone would live 15-20 miles from their job in a city and expect to not experience traffic, especially in a city with no other commuter options. I wonder how these people would react to living in Plano and working in Dallas. They'd probably never see their kids. In LA, half the distance can take you three times the amount of time it takes to drive from Edmond to downtown during "rush hour".

I've said it before, but I think the only people who complain about traffic in Oklahoma City live in Edmond. The irony is that traffic is worse in Edmond than it is in the core of Oklahoma City.

----------


## Richard at Remax

I do think you are right about Edmond commuters are some of the most vocal. However, they do have to deal with probably the worst bottleneck in the city every morning with no end in sight for the next 4 years. I take it northbound from Edgemere to Edmond to work every day and see it.

----------


## warreng88

I have a friend who lives in a subdivision on 178th and Portland. He is constantly complaining about the roads and asking haven't they widened 74/Portland. I would always tell him it is in the process, but will take several years since we work as the money is available. He doesn't care, he wants it done tomorrow since there are so many people in that outlying area, why didn't they do it sooner? I always tell him because 10 years ago, the furthest north most people lived was around 150th. Now, I have friends who off of Coffee Creek who drive 40 minutes/per day to get to work. I told him if he doesn't like it taking so long, he shouldn't live that far north. I live 10 minutes from my job. the only time it takes me more time than that is when there is a wreck.

----------


## Pete

Steve just said in his chat he expects an announcement sometime in July.

I'm also continuing to hear we are very close to an announcement on the Stage Center site.

----------


## BDP

> Steve just said in his chat he expects an announcement sometime in July.
> 
> I'm also continuing to hear we are very close to an announcement on the Stage Center site.


I'm assuming you feel these are for the same project.

----------


## Pete

> I'm assuming you feel these are for the same project.


Yes I do.

----------


## Spartan

I'm sorry, there is nothing new here. Another month, and one set of sources say to expect an announcement in July (the next month), and another set of sources say we are very close to an announcement.

Rinse. Wash. Repeat. The mystery tower enigma.

----------


## Pete

July is very close.   :Smile:

----------


## betts

The farther away the mystery tower announcement, the longer I get to enjoy looking at the Stage Center.  I'm in no hurry at all.   :Wink:

----------


## Thundercitizen

> July is very close.


T minus 2 days, 17 hours, 44 minutes until the announcement of the 700 ft tower.

What obsessive compulsive disorder?
 :Smile:

----------


## OKCRT

> T minus 2 days, 17 hours, 44 minutes until the announcement of the 700 ft tower.
> 
> What obsessive compulsive disorder?



Will there be fireworks in july? I promise you all there will be.

----------


## bradh

> Same situation with us, go all in (urban), or go to boring suburbia.


we're caught in no man's land right now.  probably just gonna try and get ours into the downtown charter and stay put in our Lake Hefner area home

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Will there be fireworks in july? I promise you all there will be.


Why would there be fireworks in July? There's nothing significant about July.

----------


## HotStuff80

> T minus 2 days, 17 hours, 44 minutes until the announcement of the 700 ft tower.
> 
> What obsessive compulsive disorder?


 :Smile: 
OR... it could be compulsive obsessive disorder... depending upon if you ring your hands before you wash them.
 :Smiley173:    Just kidding.

----------


## ljbab728

> The farther away the mystery tower announcement, the longer I get to enjoy looking at the Stage Center.  I'm in no hurry at all.


I agree, betts.  Let's go give it a group hug.   :Smile:

----------


## OKCRT

> Why would there be fireworks in July? There's nothing significant about July.


I am starting to hear fireworks on the horizon. Getting closer everyday.

The grande finally will soon be here.Sparks will fly and bombs bursting in air and all that jazz. Big news around these parts. Downtown will be exploding. 

Of course this is all speculation on my part.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I am starting to hear fireworks on the horizon. Getting closer everyday.
> 
> The grande finally will soon be here.Sparks will fly and bombs bursting in air and all that jazz. Big news around these parts. Downtown will be exploding. 
> 
> Of course this is all speculation on my part.


Sounds like we're going to have a war downtown.

----------


## edcrunk

> The farther away the mystery tower announcement, the longer I get to enjoy looking at the Stage Center.  I'm in no hurry at all.


That was my favorite building when I was a kid. It was so futuristic to me.

----------


## Jesseda

so I have been lout of the loop for awhile. Was their a scheduled announcement on a tower for July? also anymore rumors or possible number of towrs in the works? Sorry I havent been keeping up on all the new info

----------


## HotStuff80

> so I have been lout of the loop for awhile. Was their a scheduled announcement on a tower for July? also anymore rumors or possible number of towrs in the works? Sorry I havent been keeping up on all the new info


Sorry, I do not believe so.

----------


## Pete

There isn't a scheduled announcement for July but it seems very likely we'll have official news on the Stage Center site very soon, hopefully within the next month.

----------


## Praedura

> so I have been lout of the loop for awhile. Was their a scheduled announcement on a tower for July? also anymore rumors or possible number of towrs in the works? Sorry I havent been keeping up on all the new info


No, there's no scheduled announcement for any time. And I doubt that you've missed anything substantial. We've been in the same pattern for a long time. Goes like this:

1. Enticing new tidbits about possible tower are leaked to this board
2. A possible date by which announcement might be made is offered
3. Board goes nuts with excitment, speculation becomes rampant to the point of ridiculousness
4. Date guessed at in #2 arrives with no news, so a new possible date a month or two down the line is mentioned
5. Some folks grumble that it's all a hoax, other say come on now, have faith and hang in there
5. GOTO 1

I assume that this stops at some point. But on my more somber days, I fear that it's an infinite loop, like an old 8-track cartridge.

----------


## modernism

I don't know if this information has anything to do with an office tower, mystery tower, or Stage Center location, but I just heard from an official source that he does not have an exact date, but additional details regarding corporate headquarters and senior management for the new Centerpoint/Enogex MLP "should" be out in a couple weeks, and he told me to "stay tuned".

----------


## Just the facts

> No, there's no scheduled announcement for any time. And I doubt that you've missed anything substantial. We've been in the same pattern for a long time. Goes like this:
> 
> *1. Enticing new tidbits about possible tower are leaked to this board*
> 2. A possible date by which announcement might be made is offered
> 3. Board goes nuts with excitment, speculation becomes rampant to the point of ridiculousness
> 4. Date guessed at in #2 arrives with no news, so a new possible date a month or two down the line is mentioned
> 5. Some folks grumble that it's all a hoax, other say come on now, have faith and hang in there
> *5. GOTO 1*
> 
> ...


LOL - we just went from 5 to 1.

In 20 years a new tower will be built and someone from the last 189 pages will say, "See, I told you the mystery tower was coming."

----------


## Pete

The Enogex/CenterPoint deal closed in early May and they said they wanted to do an IPO within 6-12 months, so they need to announce where they will set up shop, the new entity name, etc.

The deal closed only a couple of months after being announced and this whole thing seems to be moving pretty quickly.

----------


## Pete

> In 20 years a new tower will be built and someone from the last 189 pages will say, "See, I told you the mystery tower was coming."


One announcement is eminent and there may be a second before the end of the year.

There has been hard information all along in this process, such as there were multiple bidders for the Stage Center site and the winning party WILL build a new office tower.

Yes, there is a lot of wild speculation but there is also a great deal of good info and it's really not that hard to distinguish between the two.



Frankly, people that get their hopes up too high and have unrealistic expectations are always going to end up disappointed.  Case in point:  AT&T job announcement thread.

I posted exactly what was going to happen, about 100 new jobs to be announced within a week.  Also said several times I did not think it was in any way related to a downtown office tower.  When an announcement a few days later confirmed all of that, the overwhelming reaction was not only disappointment but in some cases, anger.


It's fun to speculate, especially in this thread.  But if people would merely sift through the pie-in-the-sky(scraper?) dreaming and focus on concrete information, it's pretty easy to anticipate what is going to happen.

----------


## dankrutka

I completely agree, Pete. It's not hard at all to figure out which information is more solid and temper one's expectations to reality. However, some seem to be emotionally invested to the point that they've lost focus of the complexity of such a deal. This isn't SimCity. Things are complicated and deals take time to finalize.

----------


## Pete

Let's take stock of where we are at this point regarding the Mystery Tower(s).


*Here's what I know:*
About a year ago I became aware that OG&E had employed national real estate consultants to help them evaluate a site for a new downtown headquarters.American Fidelity and MidFirst were both very interested in building a new downtown HQ but AF ended up out-bidding MF for the OPUBCO campus and has since purchased that property and started to move some of it's employees from 22nd & Classen.MidFirst's situation changed when Aubrey McClendon was forced out at Chesapeake and thus they no longer had a buyer willing to pay a big premium for their I-44 & Grand properties.  (BTW, OKCTalk broke the story about American Fidelity buying the OPUBCO properties and as far as I know, we are the only ones that have reported about MidFirst making a bid.)The Stage Center site was formally put up for sale several months ago and immediately received interest from multiple parties.  Almost certainly one of those involved was Continental Resources but it seems they have pulled back due to the uncertainty around Harold Hamm's divorce and the possible impact on the company.Stage Center has received at least one firm offer and my understanding is they have accepted a deal pending details with the city, planning, etc.With AF, MF and CLR more or less out of the running, the attention shifted back to OG&E.  I had heard that initially OG&E was shying away from the Stage Center site because 1) it is very high-profile and 2) there will be controversy when the existing structure is demolished. Neither of these things are good for a utility company that has to receive political support for setting it's rates among other things.In the midst of all of this, the ultra-prime grassy lot at 4th & Broadway was acquired by a shadowy LLC.  It now appears that is a group headed by Tom Ward & family for personal investment / future development, not expansion of SandRidge or some other large possible tower-builder.  (And of course, everything has changed dramatically at SD since this purchase).About a month ago I heard from a very reputable source that a deal on the Stage Center was done, a building of approximately 40 stories will go on that site with some retail/restaurant space on the first floor or two, and that “it won't be as tall as Devon but close”.  I was also told this was a local company consolidating existing employees.At the same time I learned there was a second entity looking to build a downtown tower and that they would be bringing new jobs to OKC.I was also told the Stage Center announcement will happen very soon, as a few complexities (such as the easement on the now-closed California street) needed to be hammered out.We also know that the Enogex (partially owned by OG&E) and CenterPoint merger was finalized in early May and that they will soon be announcing where that company will be headquartered.  Several sources are saying that Oklahoma City is the front-runner.

*
Now, based on all of that, here is some educated speculation:*
I believe OG&E will be acquiring the Stage Center site and will make an announcement within the next month or two.  I believe they will build a 40-story tower that will be the second tallest in OKC and perhaps the second tallest in the state.They may be waiting to make an announcement to coincide with the plans for Enogex/CenterPoint.  That entity may be the one rumored to bring lots of new jobs to OKC.It could also be that the E/C MLP will occupy the southern half of the Stage Center block (all the way to Reno) and that that would help diffuse any flak OG&E may receive around the SC site.

----------


## G.Walker

What would be really cool is if we got two towers announced at the same time.

----------


## Praedura

Thanks, Pete! That's a nice recap. Should answer Jesseda's question.

----------


## s.hoff

> What would be really cool is if we got two towers announced at the same time.


And if they were twin towers.

----------


## Just the facts

Is there going to be a press conference about the tower or will it just be a press release?

----------


## Pete

I'm sure there will be a big announcement, just like when Devon announced their tower.

----------


## LuccaBrasi

Thanks, Pete for the very nice summary!

Much appreciated.

----------


## s00nr1

Well, Chevron just announced their new 50-story tower for downtown Houston. Hopefully that means the announcement of our new one is on the horizon.

Chevron to build downtown tower ? UPDATED | Prime Property | a Chron.com blog

----------


## dankrutka

Why would Chevron's announcement be related to one in OKC?

----------


## s00nr1

> Why would Chevron's announcement be related to one in OKC?


It wouldn't......just wishful thinking  :Smile:

----------


## G.Walker

> Well, Chevron just announced their new 50-story tower for downtown Houston. Hopefully that means the announcement of our new one is on the horizon.
> 
> Chevron to build downtown tower ? UPDATED | Prime Property | a Chron.com blog


Wow, I like it, very nice Houston. Houston, Austin, and Dallas are moving at an amazing clip, it seems like they are announcing new towers every month, while Oklahoma City is still "speculating". Austin is going to start looking like Dubai here in the near future, lol.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Well, Chevron just announced their new 50-story tower for downtown Houston. Hopefully that means the announcement of our new one is on the horizon.
> 
> Chevron to build downtown tower ? UPDATED | Prime Property | a Chron.com blog


They're getting $12 million from the Texas enterprise fund and more money from Houston. My goodness.

----------


## Bellaboo

> They're getting $12 million from the Texas enterprise fund and more money from Houston. My goodness.


Texas has big slush funds available to attract business.....

----------


## s00nr1

> Texas has big slush funds available to attract business.....


They will easily recoup that $12M with the addition of 1700 new Chevron jobs.

----------


## Rover

> They're getting $12 million from the Texas enterprise fund and more money from Houston. My goodness.


That is chump change for getting this magnitude of an economic development.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Well, Chevron just announced their new 50-story tower for downtown Houston. Hopefully that means the announcement of our new one is on the horizon.
> 
> Chevron to build downtown tower ? UPDATED | Prime Property | a Chron.com blog


Ok, for those who don't know, I love Texas as well as Houston, and Dallas is one of my favs, but I'm not really impressed by these buildings. To me, they're boring glass towers. I wouldn't mind having them here, but I like Devon better and this won't really add much to Houston's skyline, esp. concerning diversity. Just my two cents. I like the propose tower in Midland better.

----------


## Teo9969

> They're getting $12 million from the Texas enterprise fund and more money from Houston. My goodness.


So they're getting like a break from their 2014 property taxes? $12M to a $241B corporation is a senior manager's expense account. It's a nice gesture from Texas, but it's a bit like giving your millionaire uncle a $125 gift certificate to Ruth's Chris.

----------


## HangryHippo

> So they're getting like a break from their 2014 property taxes? $12M to a $241B corporation is a senior manager's expense account. It's a nice gesture from Texas, but it's a bit like giving your millionaire uncle a $125 gift certificate to Ruth's Chris.


I get that.  But $12 million from the state and then more from Houston is not exactly chump change.  I wonder how Oklahoma's incentives stack up.

----------


## Just the facts

Another set of towers that will look great from 20 miles away and won't do squat for the people standing on the sidewalk right in front of them.  I would prefer that kind of development stays in Houston.

----------


## Rover

It will stay in Houston, along with thousands of jobs it houses....thousands to walk those street level neighborhoods that can be developed near by.  I love how so many new urbanists hate job creation and can't see a connection to a healthy city.  I guarantee that that magnitude of a development in core OKC would hugely increase livable density in DD, Btown, AA, Film Row, Core to Shore, MidTown, SOSA.   

Ironically, Vancouver is now facing a problem with their core because they think they have TOO MUCH housing and too few jobs in the core area, with companies chased out to the burbs.  Their problem is commuting OUT, not in.    

That said, I think it is possible to do both.

----------


## Just the facts

...or Rover, they could make the new develop enhance the skyline AND the street it is on.

----------


## Rover

That is why I said they can do both.  But, I would rather have this development as is than to not have the jobs, like some.

----------


## Just the facts

I guess you have to wonder what the real localized economic impact is of a business whose employees park in a company owned on-site parking garage, eat in a company owned on-site cafeteria, work-out in a company owned on-site gym, and drive home 15 miles in a single occupant vehicle.

----------


## Rover

Another example of absolute and extreme dogma at work.  You seem a lot more intelligent than to actually believe your one note diatribe.  To ignore the economic impact of a business like that locating in our core is absurd. To think it wouldn't contribute to more and better development in and around downtown is silly.  To think Devon's only impact is outside of downtown is crazy.  Do we want ONLY Devon and this type of development downtown....absolutely not.  But to think the core is better off without the jobs and that having a couple more thousand people downtown won't allow for more good livable development downtown is just unreasonable and totally illogical.

----------


## hoya

It is horrible street interaction. The building doesn't interact with the rest of the city in any meaningful way.

That said a $500 million building going downtown, even with bad street interaction, is better than an empty lot.

----------


## Just the facts

> Another set of towers that will look great from 20 miles away and won't do squat for the people standing on the sidewalk right in front of them.  I would prefer that kind of development stays in Houston.


I wish more people read what was written rather than what they think was written.


Improve Reading Comprehension | Scholastic.com

----------


## Rover

Then some things need to be written more clearly and without constant agenda.

----------


## Just the facts

An apology would suffice.

----------


## bchris02

> Texas has big slush funds available to attract business.....


Texas cities also have much more momentum than OKC.  Houston and Dallas are simply massive and Austin is one of America's favorite cities and on the shortlist of cities recent college grads would most like to move to.  For OKC to have come as far as it has - that is to get Devon Tower, the Thunder, and all the other downtown developments - without being a 'boomtown' ala Austin and having the national image it has is simply remarkable.  When these new tower(s) get announced that will further solidify it.  I don't think OKC's peer cities (Tulsa, Memphis, Louisville) are anywhere close to getting the kind of announcement coming to OKC when these new tower(s) finally are announced.

----------


## Rover

> An apology would suffice.


If you are offering, I will be glad to accept for all of us.

----------


## AP

> If you are offering, I will be glad to accept for all of us.


I think everyone wishes both of you would stop.

----------


## soonerguru

> Texas cities also have much more momentum than OKC.  Houston and Dallas are simply massive and Austin is one of America's favorite cities and on the shortlist of cities recent college grads would most like to move to.  For OKC to have come as far as it has - that is to get Devon Tower, the Thunder, and all the other downtown developments - without being a 'boomtown' ala Austin and having the national image it has is simply remarkable.


Agree, but where I disagree is with your term "boomtown." OKC is a boomtown by virtually any measure. Austin is running out of space for development and has become a traffic nightmare. Houston is one of the most sprawling, unappealing cities in the US. Dallas is a sprawling traffic mess. So we're not growing "quite as fast" as these cities? OK by me. 

But OKC is one of the fastest-growing cities in the US, with one of the lowest unemployment rates, and with genuine increases in per capita income. Also, while we are growing, we're growing at a more manageable rate than the Texas cities. 

Austin in particular is losing what was once great about itself: it's laid back, funky bohemianism and it's environmental treasures. it's being transformed from an environmental oasis into an ecological disaster of traffic gridlock, unsustainable cost of living increases, and destruction of water and natural resources.

----------


## Just the facts

> I think everyone wishes both of you would stop.


Fair enough - back to mystery towers and what we can learn from Texas.

----------


## bchris02

> Agree, but where I disagree is with your term "boomtown." OKC is a boomtown by virtually any measure. Austin is running out of space for development and has become a traffic nightmare. Houston is one of the most sprawling, unappealing cities in the US. Dallas is a sprawling traffic mess. So we're not growing "quite as fast" as these cities? OK by me. 
> 
> But OKC is one of the fastest-growing cities in the US, with one of the lowest unemployment rates, and with genuine increases in per capita income. Also, while we are growing, we're growing at a more manageable rate than the Texas cities. 
> 
> Austin in particular is losing what was once great about itself: it's laid back, funky bohemianism and it's environmental treasures. it's being transformed from an environmental oasis into an ecological disaster of traffic gridlock, unsustainable cost of living increases, and destruction of water and natural resources.


I agree about Austin.  I have been only once, back in 2007, but I saw then that its clear the city was never meant to be as large as it has become and with a metro approaching 2 million only served by a single interstate, it has becoming a major traffic nightmare.  I would hate to live in Round Rock and have to commute to downtown Austin, but that's what a lot of people do.  Personally I thought the city was overrated, but then again I didn't really get to experience much of the nightlife.  I wonder if Austin will see a bust like most cities with that type of speculative booms do.

Nonetheless, Austin still has the 'hype' factor surrounding it.  It would be nice to see the kind of building boom they have seen here in OKC, even if on a smaller scale.  The Austin skyline was virtually unchanged for many years and then starting around 2008 towers starting going up like weeds.

----------


## Rover

> I think everyone wishes both of you would stop.


Agreed.

But this thread will continue to wander from the actual subject until new and specific information is found/released.  That is why it deteriorates into gross arguments about generalization in urban building design and community planning.  

I think we need to quit obsessing on Texas.  While we can point out all the flaws, they have done many, many things right.  Austin downtown out to the University is taking on a very urban characteristic with lots of high and mid-rise housing, upscale, mid-scale and lower end hotels, many great restaurants and pockets of club scenes, etc., etc.  Dallas has implemented a wide spread and seemingly successful mass trans rail system.  San Antonio found a way to turn a sewer into a downtown development magnet.  

With regards *THIS* project, from what we know, the first floor or two will be retail/mixed use.  The tower will generate work for hundreds and will improve density downtown and income for hundreds to live and shop downtown.  So, why are we wringing our hands worried about what Houston, or Austin, or Dallas just got and how screwed up they are?  WE appear to be on the brink of a new brick in the downtown structure and it sounds like a winner,_ from what we know_.

----------


## warreng88

Here's an idea to add to more speculation: If we were talking about the CBD, where would be places a company could logically (without tearing down a bunch of buildings) place a tower. Stage Center and the Preftakes block have already been identified. The place where the Chamber of Commerce site at EK Gaylord, 4th and the railroad tracks have been talked about. Also, the parking lot facing Reno in Bricktown in front of the U-Haul building has also been discussed. Obviously there is a lot of space in the Core to Shore area as well. What other areas am I leaving out?

----------


## dankrutka

> Then some things need to be written more clearly and without constant agenda.


No offense, Rover, but you have a pretty consistent agenda/point of view also. It's not bad to come to a situation with a consistent ideology (e.g., Rover is unapologetically pro-business, Just the Facts is unapologetically pro-new urbanism), but its also good to question your own assumptions when having a dialogue with those who don't adhere to your ideological bent. Just my perspective.

----------


## Urbanized

> An apology would suffice.





> If you are offering, I will be glad to accept for all of us.


LOL you two should get a room.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> ...Also, the parking lot facing Reno in Bricktown in front of the U-Haul building has also been discussed...


I must have missed that.  When was that discussed and who was the rumored tenant?  Inquiring mind would like to know :-)

----------


## Rover

> No offense, Rover, but you have a pretty consistent agenda/point of view also. It's not bad to come to a situation with a consistent ideology (e.g., Rover is unapologetically pro-business, Just the Facts is unapologetically pro-new urbanism), but its also good to question your own assumptions when having a dialogue with those who don't adhere to your ideological bent. Just my perspective.


No offense taken.  Thanks for the feedback and apologies to readers of the thread.

I indeed am pro-business AND pro responsible development.  You may be surprised to know I am actually very pro new-urbanism (PRINCIPALS).  But any philosophy taken to its extremes isn't wise.  If we have a new tower, the owners shouldn't have carte blanche to build whatever they want, but whatever is within the rules put in place which reflect the true wishes of the community it wishes to fit in with.  Those wishes should be memorialized in covenents, rules, laws, etc. and enforced properly.  Those rules shouldn't be made to compensate for supposed conspiracies of motor companies and politicians, etc.  I believe heavily in the power of freedom of choice and in the laws of economics.  This city is improving as we mature, become more educated, and learn more about what we want and don't want as a community.  Our community future is not to be found in any book or in any single person's interpretation of the cure to all social ills.  That was tried in many communist communities and has failed miserably.  

From what we have seen on here, there is no reason yet to believe this soon to be announced project will be irresponsible or unwise.  Why don't we wait and see what we are faced with.  Then, judgement will occur and we can debate the merits all day long.  And still, we won't totally know how good or bad it is/will be until years have passed and the entire area develops.  I think we get so myopic we fail to see how we ARE creating all those great neighborhood things, but we don't have to do it on each and every block and it isn't going to happen in a year.

I am looking forward to finding out who is building.  And, I hope it is bringing new jobs. AND, I hope it enhances the market for housing and shopping downtown, not to mention entertainment and the arts.  With all the business energy focusing on downtown, we will have all that we want....in time.

----------


## lasomeday

> I think everyone wishes both of you would stop.


Amen brother!  Preaching to the choir only works the first time!  We are here to talk about this tower that is about to be built in our backyard!  That is all we want to see, hear, smell, drink, and breath!  Not Houston, Dallas, or Austin.  

We are so close, I can breath it!

----------


## warreng88

> I must have missed that.  When was that discussed and who was the rumored tenant?  Inquiring mind would like to know :-)


There was not a rumored tenant, it was more of an idea of where one could go.

----------


## soonerguru

> I agree about Austin.  I have been only once, back in 2007, but I saw then that its clear the city was never meant to be as large as it has become and with a metro approaching 2 million only served by a single interstate, it has becoming a major traffic nightmare.  I would hate to live in Round Rock and have to commute to downtown Austin, but that's what a lot of people do.  Personally I thought the city was overrated, but then again I didn't really get to experience much of the nightlife.  I wonder if Austin will see a bust like most cities with that type of speculative booms do.
> 
> Nonetheless, Austin still has the 'hype' factor surrounding it.  It would be nice to see the kind of building boom they have seen here in OKC, even if on a smaller scale.  The Austin skyline was virtually unchanged for many years and then starting around 2008 towers starting going up like weeds.


It won't be a "bust," it will just change. It already has. Don't get me wrong: it's a great city with many wonderful charms. It has just changed remarkably, and not all for the better. I would like to see OKC grow and change more, but at a more sustainable pace than Austin, and that is what is already happening.

----------


## Pete

OKC has much, much better infrastructure to accommodate boom growth than just about any other city.

Even with the rapid population growth, there is virtually zero traffic any time of day and tons of room for in-fill and new development in every direction.

For those reasons, the City could continue to grow very quickly and even pick up the pace, and you would probably never see the problems in Dallas and Austin.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> ...or Rover, they could make the new develop enhance the skyline AND the street it is on.


I actually think the bottom is great. . . the top is kind of boring.

----------


## HOT ROD

> It will stay in Houston, along with thousands of jobs it houses....thousands to walk those street level neighborhoods that can be developed near by.  I love how so many new urbanists hate job creation and can't see a connection to a healthy city.  I guarantee that that magnitude of a development in core OKC would hugely increase livable density in DD, Btown, AA, Film Row, Core to Shore, MidTown, SOSA.   
> 
> Ironically, Vancouver is now facing a problem with their core because they think they have TOO MUCH housing and too few jobs in the core area, with companies chased out to the burbs.  Their problem is commuting OUT, not in.    
> 
> That said, I think it is possible to do both.


Quick Vancouver Update (as Rover's statement is a little bit old news)

Vancouver is working HARD to solve this problem; they are way ahead of most cities in terms of downtown jobs already but they have 'overbuilt' in residential somewhat so that not everyone who lives downtown works downtown. The real problem is they have view cones which protect views of the northshore mountains from city hall, which limits most of the height that can be achieved in the core. They don't want any supertall towers blocking any mountains from the other side of town. This has put office space in the downtown peninsula at a significant premium, where it is much cheaper to rent out in the suburbs and many companies do so (it also helps to have a subway system in place. ..). Today there are a number of significantly sized office towers under-construction in downtown Vancouver and more proposed, but I do hope city hall will relax those height restrictions to really give the city a much needed boost.

I know this isn't mystery tower but I did want to note this about Vancouver since I am close. ..  :Smile:

----------


## Teo9969

With OKC's current infrastructure, what would be the guess as to how many people we could hold and still function reasonably? Obviously where the extra population is placed would make a difference but assuming the most strategic. Would going from 600k to about 1M and the metro from 1.3M to 2.5M+ be a realistic guess?

----------


## bchris02

> With OKC's current infrastructure, what would be the guess as to how many people we could hold and still function reasonably? Obviously where the extra population is placed would make a difference but assuming the most strategic. Would going from 600k to about 1M and the metro from 1.3M to 2.5M+ be a realistic guess?


That is probably about right.  I would say OKC's current infrastructure could support about 3 million people.  Downtown is going to get denser but there is still a lot of suburban infill that can be done.  I do think existing freeways will need to be widened though to support that many people.  In an OKC with 3 million people, I wouldn't even want to think of what I-35 and I-44 will look like.  I think I-35 could already stand to be widened to at least 4 lanes going each direction between Norman and downtown.  Plan for the future and make it 5 lanes going each direction with one HOV lane.

----------


## Urbanized

Actually it is a pretty well-documented paradox that adding more lanes adds more traffic and congestion rather than alleviating it.

----------


## Spartan

> That is probably about right.  I would say OKC's current infrastructure could support about 3 million people.  Downtown is going to get denser but there is still a lot of suburban infill that can be done.  I do think existing freeways will need to be widened though to support that many people.  In an OKC with 3 million people, I wouldn't even want to think of what I-35 and I-44 will look like.  I think I-35 could already stand to be widened to at least 4 lanes going each direction between Norman and downtown.  Plan for the future and make it 5 lanes going each direction with one HOV lane.


Yikes. Go back to Charlotte if that's your type of city.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> That is probably about right.  I would say OKC's current infrastructure could support about 3 million people.  Downtown is going to get denser but there is still a lot of suburban infill that can be done.  I do think existing freeways will need to be widened though to support that many people.  In an OKC with 3 million people, I wouldn't even want to think of what I-35 and I-44 will look like.  I think I-35 could already stand to be widened to at least 4 lanes going each direction between Norman and downtown.  Plan for the future and make it 5 lanes going each direction with one HOV lane.


I agree completely with this! I am not sold at all on induced demand, like some claim. Obviously, if you only add one lane each way, when a highway gets overcrowded, it won't do much. But if we made I-35 to Norman 8 lanes plus an HOV lane each way(which would amount to 10 lanes to Norman, that would solve the traffic problem for years to come I guarantee it! OKC has really has moderate traffic right now, our interchanges just suck. The two highway's I think will definitely need to be widened is I-35 from downtown to Norman, and that stretch of I-35 from I-44 and I-40. It needs to be 6 lanes now.

Also, I wouldn't mind 5 lanes each direction plus an HOV lane, but I think a better way to do it would be to make it 8 lanes, 2 HOV lanes, and four express toll lanes with high speed limits. I promise that would solve the traffic problem on that highway decades. OKC does have a bit of growing though before something like that would be supported though lol

Oh, and I also think a light-rail would be good going along I-35 to Norman and downtown. That would be a great starter project, from the airport to downtown to Norman.

I know I go against a lot of people on this board saying that, but I like big highways and especially BIG TALL towers!!!!!!! thats just me. ;p

----------


## Spartan

> I agree completely with this! I am not sold at all on induced demand, like some claim. Obviously, if you only add one lane each way, when a highway gets overcrowded, it won't do much. But if we made I-35 to Norman 8 lanes plus an HOV lane each way(which would amount to 10 lanes to Norman, that would solve the traffic problem for years to come I guarantee it! OKC has really has moderate traffic right now, our interchanges just suck. The two highway's I think will definitely need to be widened is I-35 from downtown to Norman, and that stretch of I-35 from I-44 and I-40. It needs to be 6 lanes now.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't mind 5 lanes each direction plus an HOV lane, but I think a better way to do it would be to make it 8 lanes, 2 HOV lanes, and four express toll lanes with high speed limits. I promise that would solve the traffic problem on that highway decades. OKC does have a bit of growing though before something like that would be supported though lol
> 
> Oh, and I also think a light-rail would be good going along I-35 to Norman and downtown. That would be a great starter project, from the airport to downtown to Norman.
> 
> I know I go against a lot of people on this board saying that, but I like big highways and especially BIG TALL towers!!!!!!! thats just me. ;p


Where will we build homes if we need all this room for new mega highways?

----------


## G.Walker

I-35 from Norman to OKC should be at least 4 lanes each way, traffic is horrible during the morning and evening rush hours with just 3 lanes, I have literally witnessed the traffic getting worse over the last few years, and will continue to get worse as OKC continues to grow. ODOT should implement planning for this now to at least add a lane in each direction.

----------


## G.Walker

> OKC has much, much better infrastructure to accommodate boom growth than just about any other city.
> 
> Even with the rapid population growth, *there is virtually zero traffic any time of day* and tons of room for in-fill and new development in every direction.
> 
> For those reasons, the City could continue to grow very quickly and even pick up the pace, and you would probably never see the problems in Dallas and Austin.


Um yea, try driving from OKC to Norman at about 5:30pm during the week, not fun.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I-35 from* Norman to OKC* should be at least 4 lanes each way, traffic is horrible during the morning and evening rush hours with just 3 lanes, I have literally witnessed the traffic getting worse over the last few years, and will continue to get worse as OKC continues to grow. ODOT should implement planning for this now to at least add a lane in each direction.


I believe it was 1996 - 97 when they increased it from  a 4 to a 6 lane road, which wasn't that long ago.

----------


## G.Walker

Well, we are growing a lot faster than we did back in the late 90's. I was in Dallas for the last few days visiting family, and my grandfather in law was telling me that Dallas will be building and underground freeway from Dallas all the way to Plano, I find that very interesting. He stated there is just not anymore room to add lanes, so now they have to go under, wow.

----------


## SOONER8693

> I believe it was 1996 - 97 when they increased it from  a 4 to a 6 lane road, which wasn't that long ago.


And it took over 12 yrs to do it.

----------


## Spartan

> Um yea, try driving from OKC to Norman at about 5:30pm during the week, not fun.


Well we can't have heavy traffic at 5:00, geez then we will really be going downhill..

----------


## Spartan

> Well, we are growing a lot faster than we did back in the late 90's. I was in Dallas for the last few days visiting family, and my grandfather in law was telling me that Dallas will be building and underground freeway from Dallas all the way to Plano, I find that very interesting. He stated there is just not anymore room to add lanes, so now they have to go under, wow.


Are we growing "a lot" faster? I am very confident that we will, but I don't think we were growing all that slow before, either...tbh. Moving to the Rust Belt puts things in perspective.

As for our highway network...it's phenomenal, overbuilt, and puffed up. We don't need more. Lets look at things we don't have maybe?

----------


## modernism

A light rail line from Norman to Edmond, that stops in Downtown OKC, that would work wonders.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Where will we build homes if we need all this room for new mega highways?


THE TOWER SPARTAN!!!! up up up!!!! lol jk. . . I understand not every highway needs to be a huge mega highway. . .hell Dallas still has a bunch of 6 lane highways that serve just fine for a metroplex of 7 mil. A few highways I don't think will ever need to be widened is 235 and the portion of I-44 from I-35 to Hefner Parkway(but I wish they would reconstruct this one and add landscaping and make it below grade near Pennsquare. 

Maybe this would help if I said I am in favor of building a light-rail system before adding any new highways or widening any of them.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Yikes. Go back to Charlotte if that's your type of city.


Does Charlotte have a lot of big highways??? I thought Charlotte was pretty big on new urbanism? Then again, I haven't really seen much of the city other than some of the awesome developments some have posted on here.

----------


## bchris02

> Does Charlotte have a lot of big highways??? I thought Charlotte was pretty big on new urbanism? Then again, I haven't really seen much of the city other than some of the awesome developments some have posted on here.


Charlotte has 4 lanes going in each direction with one of them an HOV lane on I-77, the main highway through the metro area.  

Charlotte and OKC are really on a similar development track, Charlotte is just about 15 years ahead of OKC.  Both cities share numerous similarities in the nature of their development as well as their disastrous urban renewal attempts in the 1970s.  If downtown OKC keeps doing what it's doing, plus gets a few high-rise residential towers, it will look like Charlotte by 2020 or 2025.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Well, we are growing a lot faster than we did back in the late 90's. I was in Dallas for the last few days visiting family, and my grandfather in law was telling me that Dallas will be building and underground freeway from Dallas all the way to Plano, I find that very interesting. He stated there is just not anymore room to add lanes, so now they have to go under, wow.


I have a VERY hard time believing that. I keep up with developments in Dallas all the time and haven't heard anything of it. There is plenty of room to build in Dallas and there is a ton of infill available. . .

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Charlotte has 4 lanes going in each direction with one of them an HOV lane on I-77, the main highway through the metro area.  
> 
> Charlotte and OKC are really on a similar development track, Charlotte is just about 15 years ahead of OKC.  Both cities share numerous similarities in the nature of their development as well as their disastrous urban renewal attempts in the 1970s.  If downtown OKC keeps doing what it's doing, plus gets a few high-rise residential towers, it will look like Charlotte by 2020 or 2025.


Awesome!!!!!! I hope the interchanges in Charlotte are better lol

----------


## bchris02

> Awesome!!!!!! I hope the interchanges in Charlotte are better lol


Charlotte has ONE nice interchange, where I-77 intersects with I-485 with a 4-level stack.  The rest are cloverleaf interchanges much like I-44/I-235.

----------


## Just the facts

How is traffic in Charlotte at rush hour - free flowing?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Charlotte has ONE nice interchange, where I-77 intersects with I-485 with a 4-level stack.  The rest are cloverleaf interchanges much like I-44/I-235.


Well, it's doing better than OKC I guess lol. . .

----------


## bchris02

> How is traffic in Charlotte at rush hour - free flowing?


It isn't.  Charlotte has grown to a size beyond what its infrastructure was designed to support.  Both highways and city streets are parking lots during rush hour. However, Charlotte is a very easy city to get around when it's not peak times due to better design of their major thoroughfares.

----------


## bchris02

> Well, it's doing better than OKC I guess lol. . .


I would say in terms of highways, OKC has much better infrastructure than Charlotte.  One nice interchange doesn't mean much when the others are terrible. Where OKC could really learn from Charlotte is their design of city streets/boulevards.  Edmond's main thoroughfares are more similar to how they are designed in Charlotte.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

d
e
r
a
i
l
  e
     d
        !

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## BDP

> Um yea, try driving from OKC to Norman at about 5:30pm during the week, not fun.


That's a 20 mile commute during rush hour traffic. Why would anyone expect this to be fun or traffic free?

----------


## BDP

> I would say in terms of highways, OKC has much better infrastructure than Charlotte.  One nice interchange doesn't mean much when the others are terrible. Where OKC could really learn from Charlotte is their design of city streets/boulevards.  Edmond's main thoroughfares are more similar to how they are designed in Charlotte.


But Edmond's layout dumps all traffic on a few streets. Edmond always seems more congested to me than Oklahoma City. And if a street in okc get a little backed up, you can just use the grid. In Edmond when it gets congested, you're just screwed.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Well we can't have heavy traffic at 5:00, geez then we will really be going downhill..





> That's a 20 mile commute during rush hour traffic. Why would anyone expect this to be fun or traffic free?


It's really getting bad though. It would be nice if OKC would stay ahead of it.

----------


## kevinpate

I-35 between Norman and OKC can indeed be a freaking parking lot twice a day ... for about 20-25 minutes in the am and in the pm. 

No big.  One needs to simply slightly adjust departure times.  Then it's just like buttah: smooth, not necessarily good for you, but certainly won't kill you. 
Bumping the lanes up hasn't changed this. Adding another pair of lane won't either. Figuring out making I-35 easier is like figuring out downtown parking.  You can't put 3X cars in X space, but you can shift over slightly and there's room for all, and then some.

----------


## hoya

I-35 is a perfect example of induced demand (or whatever it's counterpart is). I have several friends who used to work downtown, but lived in Norman, who have either quit their jobs and started working in Norman, or moved to OKC. They did it to avoid traffic. Because for each of them there's a tipping point, a certain number of minutes of commute, beyond which they are unwilling to travel. If you open more lanes, you reduce the commute time, meaning those people don't change jobs, and they don't move. They keep commuting. This means even more cars on the highway, until traffic becomes just as bad as it is right now.

Now, yes, it's true that if we add 8 more lanes each direction, it will take us a very long time to fill up the interstate. But you're also talking about spending a billion+ dollars because people don't want to sit in traffic an extra 15 minutes.  I'd much rather we put in a light rail system. If it gets busier we can just run the trains more frequently. A train from Norman to downtown, running every 5 minutes in the morning and after 5 pm, will help alleviate congestion just as well as another highway lane. Even if you don't use it, every guy on that train one less jackass in front of you who you have to honk at.

----------


## OKCRT

> I-35 between Norman and OKC can indeed be a freaking parking lot twice a day ... for about 20-25 minutes in the am and in the pm. 
> 
> No big.  One needs to simply slightly adjust departure times.  Then it's just like buttah: smooth, not necessarily good for you, but certainly won't kill you. 
> Bumping the lanes up hasn't changed this. Adding another pair of lane won't either. Figuring out making I-35 easier is like figuring out downtown parking.  You can't put 3X cars in X space, but you can shift over slightly and there's room for all, and then some.


More like from 4.30-6.30 in afternoon. It is indeed rush hours. That is pretty much the norm for all the freeways in the afternoon.Trust me,I drive them everyday.I can tell a huge difference in the amount of traffic now than it was 10 years ago. Not even close.

----------


## bchris02

> But Edmond's layout dumps all traffic on a few streets. Edmond always seems more congested to me than Oklahoma City. And if a street in okc get a little backed up, you can just use the grid. In Edmond when it gets congested, you're just screwed.


I don't know, to me, NW OKC seems far more congested than Edmond ever does.  Edmond is more congested than the core of OKC is though.

----------


## G.Walker

How about we look at it from a different perspective. Maybe the solution to traffic congestion between Norman/Moore and OKC doesn't lie in adding more transportation infrastructure, but having mid/high paying jobs in Norman or Moore. The reality is, there aren't that many decent paying jobs in Moore or Norman, that is why so many people commute to Oklahoma City, because that is where their jobs are located, hence increased traffic. If Norman and Moore would get some big time employers, many people would not have to commute to OKC. Outside of the University of Oklahoma and Norman Regional Health System, Norman really doesn't have adequate mid/high paying jobs. If you are a college student and need a job at restaurant or retail store, you have it made. But if you are graduate and want a decent job with decent pay, OKC is the only choice. Moreover, Moore virtually has no high paying jobs or big time employers, its a shame. That PETCO deal that Norman lost would have brought 500 high paying jobs to the area, would have made a good start. Looking at it from this perspective, it would be lucrative to have the new GE Research Center in Norman or Moore. You can make this case from people commuting from Edmond to OKC, etc. Downtown Oklahoma City does not need to get every big employer, it would be nice for Norman, Moore, or Edmond to land a big energy company that would build an office complex, with 1,000+ jobs, it would work wonders for that city, and boost retail and other developments.

----------


## Urbanized

> That's a 20 mile commute during rush hour traffic. Why would anyone expect this to be fun or traffic free?


Because Oklahoma City.

----------


## lasomeday

> How about we look at it from a different perspective. Maybe the solution to traffic congestion between Norman/Moore and OKC doesn't lie in adding more transportation infrastructure, but having mid/high paying jobs in Norman or Moore. The reality is, there aren't that many decent paying jobs in Moore or Norman, that is why so many people commute to Oklahoma City, because that is where their jobs are located, hence increased traffic. If Norman and Moore would get some big time employers, many people would not have to commute to OKC. Outside of the University of Oklahoma and Norman Regional Health System, Norman really doesn't have adequate mid/high paying jobs. If you are a college student and need a job at restaurant or retail store, you have it made. But if you are graduate and want a decent job with decent pay, OKC is the only choice. Moreover, Moore virtually has no high paying jobs or big time employers, its a shame. That PETCO deal that Norman lost would have brought 500 high paying jobs to the area, would have made a good start. Looking at it from this perspective, it would be lucrative to have the new GE Research Center in Norman or Moore. You can make this case from people commuting from Edmond to OKC, etc. Downtown Oklahoma City does not need to get every big employer, it would be nice for Norman, Moore, or Edmond to land a big energy company that would build an office complex, with 1,000+ jobs, it would work wonders for that city, and boost retail and other developments.


The problem with your reasoning above is that it is granular.  Okc is not generally competing to get large employers with Moore, Edmond, or Norman.  It's competing with Dallas, Kansas City, Indianapolis, little rock, and Denver. 

So creating infrastructure to support a central location for jobs is important.  Also economies if scale take effect when attracting certain kinds of jobs.  Look at Austin and its growing computer/High tech boom.  These jobs spread to the suburbs eventually, but having a core with high skilled jobs is most important and better for attracting talent.

So getting people to jobs is secondary to bringing in the jobs for the reasons above.  Creating jobs in okc will trickle down.   Until then we need a rail transit system that will balance the growth and stop widening the highways.

----------


## lasomeday

Back to the tower!  Maybe we will hear something this week?

----------


## adaniel

> How about we look at it from a different perspective. Maybe the solution to traffic congestion between Norman/Moore and OKC doesn't lie in adding more transportation infrastructure, but having mid/high paying jobs in Norman or Moore. The reality is, there aren't that many decent paying jobs in Moore or Norman, that is why so many people commute to Oklahoma City, because that is where their jobs are located, hence increased traffic. If Norman and Moore would get some big time employers, many people would not have to commute to OKC. Outside of the University of Oklahoma and Norman Regional Health System, Norman really doesn't have adequate mid/high paying jobs. If you are a college student and need a job at restaurant or retail store, you have it made. But if you are graduate and want a decent job with decent pay, OKC is the only choice. Moreover, Moore virtually has no high paying jobs or big time employers, its a shame.....


This reasoning is ridiculous. I mean, what are we even doing here passing these tax initiatives, investing all this money and time in DT if people are too lazy to even come? There aren't that many jobs in Moore because Moore is a _suburb_. It functions very well as a suburb, cheap housing and decent schools. Norman is a college town that just so happened to grow into a suburb thanks to I-35. I love Norman, but if it weren't for OU Norman would be just your typical run down Oklahoma county seat town, not all that different from El Reno or Chickasha.

Even when downtown was a dump it still had a pretty good percentage of the area's jobs, if for nothing else, it was centrally located so people in Edmond, Norman, Moore, Yukon, MWC, etc. all had equal access. White collar employment is what has made nearly everything DT possible. No jobs=no Devon Tower, no booming culinary scene, no housing, and certainly no "mystery tower." 

Moore is not the only place in the United States that has seen its commute times increase. I think a lot of it is the bottleneck at 35 and 240, which is slated for reconstruction whenever ODOT scrapes together the cash to do it. In the mean time, one will need to put on their big boy/girl pants and make a decision about where to live and if its worth it to do the drive. People _everywhere_ have to do this.

----------


## Spartan

Uh yeah, the job density that OKC has is a strength. And why would a corporate office move to Moore over OKC? I mean i can understand but disagre with Memorial, but Moore? 




> Charlotte has ONE nice interchange, where I-77 intersects with I-485 with a 4-level stack.  The rest are cloverleaf interchanges much like I-44/I-235.


Have you seen the construction there?

----------


## soonerguru

> More like from 4.30-6.30 in afternoon. It is indeed rush hours. That is pretty much the norm for all the freeways in the afternoon.Trust me,I drive them everyday.I can tell a huge difference in the amount of traffic now than it was 10 years ago. Not even close.


That's crazy. It was terrible for me in 1993, so I gave up on Norman and moved to OKC. Never regretted the move. Having that much of my life back, formerly spent commuting, was worth its weight in gold.

----------


## Just the facts

> Back to the tower!  Maybe we will hear something this week?


I heard from some people on-line that a tower announcement is eminent.  Just hang in there a bit longer.  :Smile:

----------


## BDP

> I don't know, to me, NW OKC seems far more congested than Edmond ever does.  Edmond is more congested than the core of OKC is though.


This is true, but I kind of view the two as the same. I will avoid memorial in n okc and broadway in Edmond as much as I can. Both were developed with similar planning strategies that resulted in sprawling corridors of disjointed strip malls and chain restaurants separated by large amounts of parking most of which is navigated by large thoroughfares connected only by streets whose distance from each is measured in half miles instead of blocks. The result is traffic congestion much greater on a daily basis than the core grid of Oklahoma City.

----------


## soonerguru

> How about we look at it from a different perspective. Maybe the solution to traffic congestion between Norman/Moore and OKC doesn't lie in adding more transportation infrastructure, but having mid/high paying jobs in Norman or Moore. The reality is, there aren't that many decent paying jobs in Moore or Norman, that is why so many people commute to Oklahoma City, because that is where their jobs are located, hence increased traffic. If Norman and Moore would get some big time employers, many people would not have to commute to OKC. Outside of the University of Oklahoma and Norman Regional Health System, Norman really doesn't have adequate mid/high paying jobs. If you are a college student and need a job at restaurant or retail store, you have it made. But if you are graduate and want a decent job with decent pay, OKC is the only choice. Moreover, Moore virtually has no high paying jobs or big time employers, its a shame. That PETCO deal that Norman lost would have brought 500 high paying jobs to the area, would have made a good start. Looking at it from this perspective, it would be lucrative to have the new GE Research Center in Norman or Moore. You can make this case from people commuting from Edmond to OKC, etc. Downtown Oklahoma City does not need to get every big employer, it would be nice for Norman, Moore, or Edmond to land a big energy company that would build an office complex, with 1,000+ jobs, it would work wonders for that city, and boost retail and other developments.


I disagree 100% with this sentiment. If these people want to work here, they need to buck up and move to OKC or sit in traffic. The solution to improving this is not to "take jobs away from OKC and add more to Norman and Moore." I'm a Norman native, and I hope it continues to improve, but the relative economic health of OKC is the driver for the entire region. 

There are a lot of folks who want to live in a bedroom community for various reasons. Fine. I support them. But we need to quit bending over for them. They're going to have to sit in a bit of traffic due to their decision. We cannot cater to them.

----------


## Praedura

> I heard from some people on-line that a tower announcement is eminent.  Just hang in there a bit longer.


I'm sure the announcement will be eminent in some way. I just hope it's imminent -- like real soon!
 :Wink:

----------


## bchris02

> Uh yeah, the job density that OKC has is a strength. And why would a corporate office move to Moore over OKC? I mean i can understand but disagre with Memorial, but Moore? 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen the construction there?


I left about a year ago. Maybe they have started rebuilding interchanges since I left.

----------


## Praedura

> I heard from some people on-line that a tower announcement is eminent.  Just hang in there a bit longer.


And what kind of time frame do your sources expect? 24 hours? 48? 72? 73? 74? 75? Be specific.  :Wink:

----------


## Just the facts

> I'm sure the announcement will be eminent in some way. I just hope it's imminent -- like real soon!


Good one.  That is what I meant.  I'm told an announcement is so close I can taste it, but I have must have partaken in the cursed Aztec gold with the Black Pearl crew because I don't taste anything.  :Smile: 

Personally I would rather talk about freeways and spreading jobs across 1,000 sq miles to reduce traffic congestion.

----------


## Praedura

> ......  I'm told an announcement is so close I can taste it, but I have must have partaken in the cursed Aztec gold with the Black Pearl crew because I don't taste anything. .


I've been tasting it for quite awhile now myself, and I have to say... the flavor is getting a bit rancid.  :Frown:

----------


## G.Walker

What? There is a new office tower coming? Wow, I forgot all about it.  :Fighting40:

----------


## stratosphere

> With OKC's current infrastructure, what would be the guess as to how many people we could hold and still function reasonably? Obviously where the extra population is placed would make a difference but assuming the most strategic. Would going from 600k to about 1M and the metro from 1.3M to 2.5M+ be a realistic guess?





> That is probably about right.  I would say OKC's current infrastructure could support about 3 million people.  Downtown is going to get denser but there is still a lot of suburban infill that can be done.  I do think existing freeways will need to be widened though to support that many people.  In an OKC with 3 million people, I wouldn't even want to think of what I-35 and I-44 will look like.  I think I-35 could already stand to be widened to at least 4 lanes going each direction between Norman and downtown.  Plan for the future and make it 5 lanes going each direction with one HOV lane.


I really hope we don't see 3 million people here in my lifetime.  Traffic and crime are bad enough as it is with what we have now.  3 million people...GROSS!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I would love 3 million people, doesn't 3 million come with more towers?????  :Wink:

----------


## Urbanized

> That's crazy. It was terrible for me in 1993, so I gave up on Norman and moved to OKC. Never regretted the move. Having that much of my life back, formerly spent commuting, was worth its weight in gold.


You could have been posting for me, except my move was in '92.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

> You could have been posting for me, except my move was in '92.


People complaining about traffic here are nuts.  It takes what, 40 minutes in the heart of rush hour to get from DT OKC to Norman?  That's hardly a parking lot.  Have you ever driven in the Bay Area?  Dallas?  Houston? That same distances takes HOURS.  And rush hour starts before 3PM and lasts well after 7 in those places.  

Heck even Austin is terrible now.  Now that's a city that outgrew it's infrastructure 10 years ago and is still catching up.

----------


## soonerguru

> People complaining about traffic here are nuts.  It takes what, 40 minutes in the heart of rush hour to get from DT OKC to Norman?  That's hardly a parking lot.  Have you ever driven in the Bay Area?  Dallas?  Houston? That same distances takes HOURS.  And rush hour starts before 3PM and lasts well after 7 in those places.  
> 
> Heck even Austin is terrible now.  Now that's a city that outgrew it's infrastructure 10 years ago and is still catching up.


True, but I don't want to spend 80 minutes of every day sitting in traffic, capisce? That's why I chose to ditch commuting. If I were to live in the other cities you mentioned, I would try to live as close to my employer, or good, reliable public transit, or I simply wouldn't live in those cities at all.

----------


## traxx

> This is true, but I kind of view the two as the same. I will avoid memorial in n okc and broadway in Edmond as much as I can. *Both were developed with similar planning strategies that resulted in sprawling corridors of disjointed strip malls and chain restaurants separated by large amounts of parking most of which is navigated by large thoroughfares connected only by streets whose distance from each is measured in half miles instead of blocks.* The result is traffic congestion much greater on a daily basis than the core grid of Oklahoma City.


This

Why can't these developers get together and come up with a cohesive, people friendly layout? One that's aesthetically pleasing, makes sense and is easy to navigate whether it be by car, foot or otherwise.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Can we start another highway thread?
> 
> Or an urban vs suburban thread?
> 
> Or a thread about attracting new businesses to Norman. 
> 
> Oh wait, we've got those threads already....


No... This^

Nowhere in the thread title does it state that this should be a debate/speculation on urban vs. suburban issues, or highway design. For the love of god, please take the conversion somewhere else. I wish half the threads here would stop disintegrating into that discussion.

----------


## Urbanized

Message board.

----------


## Bellaboo

Just spoke to the wife of a long term Enogex HQ employee and he hasn't told her anything yet....He was told back in April that they'd have some merger news around the first week of July.

----------


## hoya

> Can we start another highway thread?
> 
> Or an urban vs suburban thread?
> 
> Or a thread about attracting new businesses to Norman. 
> 
> Oh wait, we've got those threads already....


Sorry, I open like 8 threads at once, close them as I finish reading.  So the conversation tends to drift sometimes.

Back on topic:

I think a 40 minute commute from Norman to this MYSTERY TOWER is not bad at all.  That becomes part of your analysis when you choose where to live.  Live closer and pay more or live farther away, drive more, and pay less.  If you continue to widen highways then you just encourage people to live farther away from their jobs at the MYSTERY TOWER.

Seriously though, we've basically hit a dead period.  We could be down to a few days before an announcement.  I expect to either log in here and see 20+ pages have been added to this thread overnight, or to see a big press release first.

----------


## Praedura

> Seriously though, we've basically hit a dead period.  We could be down to a few days before an announcement.  *I expect to either log in here and see 20+ pages have been added* to this thread overnight, or to see a big press release first.


That could very well happen. I mean, I'll probably contribute about 10 pages alone that consist of me shouting WOOHOO!!! along with photos of rainbows sprouting and unicorns prancing.

----------


## kevinpate

> That could very well happen. I mean, I'll probably contribute about 10 pages alone that consist of me shouting WOOHOO!!! along with photos of rainbows sprouting and unicorns prancing.


one, you forgot the glitter.
two, perhaps this might be of use to you ... Find Me A Hobby. 101 Hobby Ideas.


I keed, I keed

----------


## TAlan CB

> Charlotte has ONE nice interchange, where I-77 intersects with I-485 with a 4-level stack.  The rest are cloverleaf interchanges much like I-44/I-235.


Interesting, I have driven a 20-30 times through Charlotte between Atlanta and Raleigh on I-85 - the few times on I-77 were much less busy.  Hitting Charlotte at the wrong time means sitting still - or moving slowly for at least an hour.  A couple of times I took the loop - which only goes about 90% around - and it was nearly empty, maybe timing.  In this respect it reminded me of Jacksonville Fl, the loop is large and under-used.  I've driven coast to coast on I-10, I-40, I-20, and north to south on I-95, I-85, I-35, and I-25.  Few sections of interstate in the US (and yes, I have driven others - just not their entire length) are as busy as I-85 is from Raleigh NC to Atlanta GA.  The center of this is I-85 in Charlotte where I-77 adds to the the Northeast (Bosh-Wash) traffic going to the Southern mega-cities of Atlanta, Houston, Dallas.  Only Washington to New York and I - 95 in Miami are as busy over-all.  There are sections in all areas that are just as busy for a while - like OKC at rush hour, but few sustain the traffic.  Dallas, Atlanta, and Houston are busy all the time.  But these are huge metros.  The Raleigh/Durham metro is now larger, but not as centralized as Charlotte, and therefore are more like OKC - rush hour busy.  OKC roads are generally better than Charlotte, but are also more extensive and harder to up-keep.

----------


## Praedura

> one, you forgot the glitter.
> two, perhaps this might be of use to you ... Find Me A Hobby. 101 Hobby Ideas.
> 
> 
> I keed, I keed


Wow. It's like you're William Shatner, and I'm a Trekkie at a convention. The slap, the sting!  :Wink: 

That's ok. I do have a life. Which right now consists mostly of waiting for a tower announcement (well, plus all that unimportant real world stuff too).
 :Smile:

----------


## drinner-okc

My commute will seem much shorter and be Much More enjoyable if i can look up and see Tower Cranes working on a new Tower for the next several years . Hows that? On topic & off at same time! I hope for an announcement soon, I have driven everybody i know away with questions.

----------


## Pete

An announcement will not be an end, it will be a new beginning!

Waiting for it to break ground, obsessively watching the new tower cam (oh yes, there will be one), dissecting every aspect of it's design and construction...

And of course, there will be others, and probably soon!


Still hope to hear something official on Tower #1 by the end of the month.

----------


## Thundercitizen

I know I look like a Pete fanboy by liking the post, but hey, it captures the spirit of the thread.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I know I look like a Pete fanboy by liking the post, but hey, it captures the spirit of the thread.


Is that the spirit if commuting times or the mystery tower?

----------


## warreng88

So, Sid, where are some spots in DT for a tower to go? Stage Center, Preftakes block, Cox Convention Center (when it is redeveloped). Where else? 

::yes, this is to get us back on topic::

----------


## Praedura

> Is that the spirit if commuting times or the mystery tower?


Catch the mist
Catch the myth
Catch the mystery
Catch the drift

 :Rock Guitar:

----------


## jedicurt

> So, Sid, where are some spots in DT for a tower to go? Stage Center, Preftakes block, Cox Convention Center (when it is redeveloped). Where else? 
> 
> ::yes, this is to get us back on topic::


I still really want to see something come out of the 4th and EKG property.   That spot is begging for a 30-35 story tower.

----------


## Praedura

> So, Sid, where are some spots in DT for a tower to go? Stage Center, Preftakes block, Cox Convention Center (when it is redeveloped). Where else?


All of the above. Plus any of the numerous surface parking lots in downtown -- for example, along Hudson.

(No, I'm not Sid -- pardon my protruding  :Wink: )

----------


## BigD Misey

> Sorry, I open like 8 threads at once, close them as I finish reading.  So the conversation tends to drift sometimes.
> 
> Back on topic:
> 
> I think a 40 minute commute from Norman to this MYSTERY TOWER is not bad at all.  That becomes part of your analysis when you choose where to live.  Live closer and pay more or live farther away, drive more, and pay less.  If you continue to widen highways then you just encourage people to live farther away from their jobs at the MYSTERY TOWER.
> 
> Seriously though, we've basically hit a dead period.  We could be down to a few days before an announcement.  I expect to either log in here and see 20+ pages have been added to this thread overnight, or to see a big press release first.



WOW, JUST, WOW! :Treadmill:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Catch the mist
> Catch the myth
> Catch the mystery
> Catch the drift


don't Rush to judge...lol.

----------


## pw405

keeping up with this thread is a part time job.  Idea:  once the tower is actually announced, let's make it a sticky?  (That way, users won't have to check it daily to see updates on non-mystery-tower-related-ramblings)

----------


## bchris02

> keeping up with this thread is a part time job.  Idea:  once the tower is actually announced, let's make it a sticky?  (That way, users won't have to check it daily to see updates on non-mystery-tower-related-ramblings)


I imagine there will be a new thread for the tower and this thread will continue with speculation about the next one.

----------


## G.Walker

We have talked about a mystery tower so much, and even speculated about speculation for so long, it's not even exciting anymore for me, I am burned out on it.

----------


## hoya

It's like when I was a kid and it's now 2 days before Christmas.  I've speculated on my presents so much that there's little to do but wait now.  I'm still excited, but there's only so much I can wonder what is in the boxes.

----------


## traxx

> keeping up with this thread is a part time job.  Idea:  once the tower is actually announced, let's make it a sticky?  (That way, users won't have to check it daily to see updates on non-mystery-tower-related-ramblings)


I'm assuming that once it's announced, the name of the thread will change since it will no longer be a mystery and we will have a name to put to it.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm assuming that once it's announced, the name of the thread will change since it will no longer be a mystery and we will have a name to put to it.


I imagine this thread will stay the same, waiting on the next Mystery tower announcement.....that said, the new building announced will get its own thread.

----------


## catch22

We are now speculating on the thread the speculative tower will be discussed in once announced?

Lord have mercy

----------


## AP

Is this what Inception feels like?

----------


## Just the facts

> I imagine this thread will stay the same, waiting on the next Mystery tower announcement.....that said, the new building announced will get its own thread.


You have discovered the magic of the Mystery Tower thread.  It will never die because there will all be a mystery tower, and no matter how long it takes, everyone speculating in the mystery tower thread will be proven right.  I don't know what OKCTalk will look like in 100 years but I do know that this thread will be alive and well.  :Smile:

----------


## Geographer

> We were thinking the same thing. 
> 
> This is a Mystery Tower Thread in a Mystery Tower in a Mystery Tower Thread...


I believe this is appropriate

----------


## MikeLucky



----------


## Spartan

So anyone yet got an idea for how we celebrate getting to over 200 pages of absolutely nothing? :P

----------


## G.Walker

I don't know, but I highly doubt we will get an announcement this month. This reminds of the beginning March, where "sources" were saying we would have an announcement by the end of March, and we had a countown and everything, but nothing. 5 months later and we are still waiting, so how resourceful are these so called "sources"?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

None of us would be qualified to become a jedi cause none of us have the patience...

----------


## hoya

Dark Side, baby. Faster, easier, more seductive. I'm all about that.

----------


## adaniel

> I don't know, but I highly doubt we will get an announcement this month. This reminds of the beginning March, where "sources" were saying we would have an announcement by the end of March, and we had a countown and everything, but nothing. 5 months later and we are still waiting, so how resourceful are these so called "sources"?


Multi million dollar real estate deals don't work on your schedule.

----------


## G.Walker

> None of us would be qualified to become a jedi cause none of us have the patience...


 :Fighting40:

----------


## jedicurt

> None of us would be qualified to become a jedi cause none of us have the patience...


I take offense to that remark!  :Smile:

----------


## jedicurt

> I don't know, but I highly doubt we will get an announcement this month. This reminds of the beginning March, where "sources" were saying we would have an announcement by the end of March, and we had a countown and everything, but nothing. 5 months later and we are still waiting, so how resourceful are these so called "sources"?


Luckily, all of my sources have said that it wasn't their company, so my sources are still showing to be resourceful

----------


## Pete

These deals often take years to come together and it's always been that way.

The difference is that we now get wind of things much earlier and have many more sources for information.

Used to be we'd find out when there was a press release.  In those cases, the deal had been brewing for a long time, we just didn't know about it.

----------


## bchris02

> "Special" OKC Central Live Chat 10 a.m. Today | News OK


I doubt he would break the Mystery Tower story in a chat, unless its that the deal has fallen through.  It will be interesting to see what he has to say.

----------


## Richard at Remax

maybe the topic is waffle house

----------


## bchris02

> maybe the topic is waffle house


I hope not.  A Waffle House is the last thing downtown OKC needs.  Now an authentic diner with character would be awesome.

----------


## G.Walker

> I doubt he would break the Mystery Tower story in a chat, unless its that the deal has fallen through.  It will be interesting to see what he has to say.


With it maybe getting close to an announcement, he may have more details to share and probably can expand a little more on the topic. But I am sure he won't give specifics on who is building, cost, etc.

----------


## modernism

Not getting my hopes up, the chat will got like this:

Nick: "Steve, any updates on the Mystery Tower and Stage Center location?"

Steve: "I'm not worried."

----------


## Just the facts

I actually hope it is related to downtown housing - like that rumored 1000 unit development.

----------


## sroberts24

As per the link

 "I’m back, I’ve been busy, and today I’m prepared to address a topic that seems to come up every week in OKC Central Live Chat."

----------


## AP

> I actually hope it is related to downtown housing - like that rumored 1000 unit development.


I hope it's announcing what MidtownR is doing with their property at 10th & Hudson. I'm way more interested in that.

----------


## Just the facts

What about a downtown Target?

----------


## adaniel

Doubt it is anything relating to the mystery tower, which will probably release a wave of hand wringing from the peanut gallery on here.

I'm frankly hoping its some sort of for-sale housing, since its been discussed on there a lot lately.

----------


## warreng88

So the tease was that he is at the Waffle House live chatting. This has come up several times in past chats so that is what his tease was about. Moving on...

----------


## Richard at Remax

called it

----------


## bchris02

I don't get why people want a chain, subpar diner downtown when we could have one with character and that could be a destination in our city. I wish somebody would bring a real diner to Midtown or 23rd St or even east Bricktown.

----------


## BDP

> I don't get why people want a chain, subpar diner downtown when we could have one with character and that could be a destination in our city. I wish somebody would bring a real diner to Midtown or 23rd St or even east Bricktown.


Especially when one motivation for many people looking at downtown is to escape the glut of mediocre national chain restaurants in OKC.

----------


## Just the facts

Is the locally owned and operated diner going to be open 24/7 or is it going to be open from 8AM to 2PM M-F like most of the current ones?

----------


## adaniel

> I don't get why people want a chain, subpar diner downtown when we could have one with character and that could be a destination in our city. I wish somebody would bring a real diner to Midtown or 23rd St or even east Bricktown.


You do realize it's a joke, right?

----------


## Romulack

I wish we had this downtown, preferably in place of the Myriad Gardens restaurant building.

----------


## sroberts24

I'm done with these chats.

All Steve does is say something in the title or little tidbits to get everybody excited then says nothing at all.  Literally doesn't say anything or says "yes" "no" or "I don't know"

not that i expect him to announce anything, but don't lead it on to get participants.

----------


## warreng88

> I'm done with these chats.
> 
> All Steve does is say something in the title or little tidbits to get everybody excited then says nothing at all.  Literally doesn't say anything or says "yes" "no" or "I don't know"
> 
> not that i expect him to announce anything, but don't lead it on to get participants.


I think the trick is to get your question in early. An hour in, he is annoyed with all the Waffle House, continuous mystery tower questions and other questions not in his rhelm of coverage. That is why I always get mine in early.

----------


## BrettM2

> I'm done with these chats.
> 
> All Steve does is say something in the title or little tidbits to get everybody excited then says nothing at all.  Literally doesn't say anything or says "yes" "no" or "I don't know"
> 
> not that i expect him to announce anything, but don't lead it on to get participants.


Very true, but one of the posters mentioned that his month-to-month parking lease at Stage Center is ended, effective 31 July, due to impending ownership change.  Granted, Steve replied with a "Yep" but that's still some small amount of new information that this may be getting close.

----------


## Anonymous.

If they're taking soil samples, then I would say things are definitely on the 'imminent' side.

----------


## Pete

One thing that did come up in that chat -- and has also been shared here on this site -- is that those parking at Stage Center are being cut off by 7/31/13 and being told the property will be under new ownership.

I really do think we are going to get an announcement by the end of the month, or very shortly thereafter.

----------


## Bellaboo

The California easement issue should come to head pretty quick. Any way to find if this is scheduled by the appropriate parties ?

----------


## Pete

> The California easement issue should come to head pretty quick. Any way to find if this is scheduled by the appropriate parties ?


I believe this is one of those issues that has been explored and those involved feel confident it can be resolved.

Once there is an announcement, then specifics like the easement will be dealt with in the usual public way.


Remember, Devon had to get all types of assurances from the City about the existing parking garage but it's not like that deal was done before their announcement; and it certainly wasn't discussed in public meetings.  They still had to go through a process, settle on the price, etc.  The sale of the land and garage didn't close until after the announcement.

----------


## modernism

Flashback:

Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK

So 2 for 1?:

Steve Lackmeyer: New tower announcement could be coming later this month | News OK

----------


## bchris02

> I wish we had this downtown, preferably in place of the Myriad Gardens restaurant building.


Agreed. That's exactly what I am talking about. Charlotte had two of them, Little Rock has one, and Tulsa has one. All open 24/7. Such an establishment is probably in my top 5 list of things I wish OKC had but doesn't.

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Very true, but one of the posters mentioned that his month-to-month parking lease at Stage Center is ended, effective 31 July, due to impending ownership change.  Granted, Steve replied with a "Yep" but that's still some small amount of new information that this may be getting close.


I was the poster.  My firm leases the driveway for parking on month to month and they notified us that the property was changing hands and that our month to month was being terminated July 31

----------


## UnFrSaKn

You gotta give it up to whoever the company is, that in today's age with instant communications that it is still a "mystery" up to the end.

----------


## G.Walker

> You gotta give it up to whoever the company is, that in today's age with instant communications that it is still a "mystery" up to the end.


The only company that can pull that off is a company that doesn't exist yet, which would be the Enogex/CenterPoint MLP, lol.

----------


## SOONER8693

> I'm done with these chats.
> 
> All Steve does is say something in the title or little tidbits to get everybody excited then says nothing at all.  Literally doesn't say anything or says "yes" "no" or "I don't know"
> 
> not that i expect him to announce anything, but don't lead it on to get participants.


You are dead right on. I concluded some time ago, he is just jerkin people to keep the attention.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> You are dead right on. I concluded some time ago, he is just jerkin people to keep the attention.


The only reason I ever skim his chats is to find out other useful information that he doesn't have to play the role of Slylock Fox...

----------


## MikeLucky

That's why I just come to this thread after the chats to get a summary of any good info without having to put up with the drama queen.   :Cool:

----------


## OKCDrummer77

> Agreed. That's exactly what I am talking about. Charlotte had two of them, Little Rock has one, and Tulsa has one. All open 24/7. Such an establishment is probably in my top 5 list of things I wish OKC had but doesn't.


I don't remember seeing it the last time I was there, but I ate at a car like that in Wellington, KS (pop. ~8,000) in 2005.

----------


## rcjunkie

I'm hearing it's going to be a 50 story Waffle House that's shaped like a syrup bottle!

----------


## Spartan

> I'm hearing it's going to be a 50 story Waffle House that's shaped like a syrup bottle!


That sounds like a sticky mess for whoever is involved

----------


## soonerguru

> So the tease was that he is at the Waffle House live chatting. This has come up several times in past chats so that is what his tease was about. Moving on...


Seriously? Wow.

----------


## Praedura

Well folks, I'm still here, manning the old keyboard, patiently (ahem) waiting for some kind of news or announcement. Just hanging by in case, ya know, something happens...

----------


## UnFrSaKn

This is the rest of us...

----------


## UnFrSaKn



----------


## OU Adonis

Such a cool looking building too.  Sad to see it go.

----------


## Just the facts

I hope they get to put on-street parking on that side of Sheridan eventually.

----------


## MikeLucky

> 


Am I the only one who imagined the Jaws music while scrolling through those pics? lol

----------


## G.Walker

That would be a great location for a tower cam!

----------


## Bellaboo

Not sure it'd be too logical, but it'd be pretty neat if they could incorporate the small structure next to Sheridan into their parking garage or some other facility. The other two structures take up too much room, they'll more than likely have to go.

It could be a small bar/resturant with an outdoor patio or something.

----------


## Pete

I'd be more conflicted about losing this structure if it hadn't spent almost it's entire existence in extreme disrepair.

I can't remember a time where that place didn't look like absolute crap and/or showed even the smallest amount of life.

And amazingly, I've never even been in it -- one of the very few structures in the central core I can say that about.


As long as we get a great tower in it's place, I'm ready for the next chapter where that corner is teeming with life and activity.

Will also draw many more into the park and downtown in general.

----------


## jedicurt

> I'd be more conflicted about losing this structure if it hadn't spent almost it's entire existence in extreme disrepair.
> ...
> As long as we get a great tower in it's place, I'm ready for the next chapter where that corner is teeming with life and activity.


I just hope that it's a great tower with lots of Curb interaction and appeal.

----------


## Just the facts

Does anyone know what was on this site before it was turned into Stage Center?

----------


## Pete

I've been encouraged by the development trends of late...  Developers and companies making much more of a commitment to doing things right.

Plus, public involvement has made a big difference and the design review committees seem to be stepping up to the plate.

I'm optimistic.

----------


## kevinpate

Made my peace with demise of SC being inevitable a while back. At this point, bring on the machinery, take it down and move on. The only thing sadder than seeing it go would be to see bits of it moved over at the new park to the south. If it isn't worth saving, there is no need to have a shrine to its failure taking up space in the new park (which isn't really all that spacious.)

----------


## betts

I just hope they don't tear it down unless there are plans approved and a company poised to break ground the minute demotion is complete.  I don't want to look at a patch of ground created by a company that suddenly doesn't have the money or interest to build.

----------


## Anonymous.

> I just hope they don't tear it down unless there are plans approved and a company poised to break ground the minute demotion is complete.  I don't want to look at a patch of ground created by a company that suddenly doesn't have the money or interest to build.


I would imagine demolishing SC will be far more expensive than traditional demolitions. So a company spending the money on the land + demo is already a great committment. I would be beyond shocked to see it purhcased, demo'd, and then left to rot.

----------


## BDP

> And amazingly, I've never even been in it


I think that's true of a lot of its critics. It was a really unique place to see plays, art shows, and bands. It was truly one of a kind. We've lost a lot of theater venues in Oklahoma City over the years, many of them ornate treasures, but not necessarily unique. It was certainly unlike any other theater/art complex I have visited and in a lot ways was much more fun and engaging.

----------


## Pete

Yes, but the fact I lived for there for 29 years, get back a couple times of years now, and have always been into the arts/culture/downtown/nightlife...  And yet never happened across an opportunity to go there, speaks volumes.

Might have been cool in the very limited time it was actually functional, but the point is that was a very small amount of time over this structure's life.

And the reason so few people have actually been inside the place.

----------


## yukong

Back in the 70's not too long after it was opened...I performed there during a high school one act play contest.  I also attended another performance or two there after that.  In truth, it wasn't  that great of a venue in my opinion.  It was avant garde, yes...but it wasn't that great.  And the back stage area was poor.  Very small and very little room.  It was only built for minor one act type of plays.  Thrust stages are not designed for Broadway type of productions.  And the smaller in the round type of stage was even more difficult for must in the way of sets and set movement.  I was never a fan of performing there.

----------


## BDP

> Yes, but the fact I lived for there for 29 years, get back a couple times of years now, and have always been into the arts/culture/downtown/nightlife...  And yet never happened across an opportunity to go there, speaks volumes.
> 
> Might have been cool in the very limited time it was actually functional, but the point is that was a very small amount of time over this structure's life.
> 
> And the reason so few people have actually been inside the place.


That is interesting. I moved back in 99 and went there at least half a dozen times since I'd been back. Went to Momentum there one year, a couple of tribute shows, a local production of Hair, a production of Suburbia, and The Arts Festival used to house exhibits there. It actually wasn't until I moved back that I realized what a great multi-use facility it was.

----------


## BDP

> It was only built for minor one act type of plays.


Yeah, and it kicks the sh*t out of most local art theater houses.

No doubt Stage Center is not ideal for housing large traveling productions of Cats or anything. Nor is it some Grand venue. But that doesn't make it worthless. As a performer, I know you know that most playhouses, even in the country's largest cities, are very nondescript rooms with very little seating and modest intimate green rooms, if at all. I'm pretty amazed that a city like Oklahoma City, with it's less than stellar history of supporting local arts, was ever at a place where it was willing to spend the time, energy and money to go out on a limb and build something like Stage Center at all, honestly. Ironically, it is probably more in a position to do so now than it has been for awhile, but instead will be losing another intimate venue.

----------


## Just the facts

Aren't there 2 or 3 intimate theaters at the Civic Center?

----------


## Urbanized

Among other things I've seen a really nice production of Glengarry Glen Ross and an ACM@UCO masterclass with Steven Drozd of the Flaming Lips. I've also been to a couple of parties, including the re-opening after Rand Elliott oversaw preservation work. And as BDP mentions, many times I have been inside during Festival of the Arts for displays, etc. The thing that I came away from at productions there was a feeling of intimacy that you just could not get on a traditional stage. The Glengarry Glen Ross production really stood out in that regard. I felt like I was part of it, and it made me more invested in the characters. I really do think that it added a wonderful wrinkle to the performing arts. It really is a tragedy more people have not been able to interact with the interior of the building, because I believe inside is where the real magic of the structure is revealed, at least to a member of the audience if not the production folks.

The shame of the matter was that group was able to make it work long term for their needs. I personally believe that had more to do with the groups themselves than the building, which makes the whole thing even more difficult to accept.

----------


## Spartan

> I'd be more conflicted about losing this structure if it hadn't spent almost it's entire existence in extreme disrepair.
> 
> I can't remember a time where that place didn't look like absolute crap and/or showed even the smallest amount of life.
> 
> And amazingly, I've never even been in it -- one of the very few structures in the central core I can say that about.
> 
> 
> As long as we get a great tower in it's place, I'm ready for the next chapter where that corner is teeming with life and activity.
> 
> Will also draw many more into the park and downtown in general.


I would be curious to see if some of the pods could be reassembled somewhere else in town. Like in the C2S park, or somewhere in Capitol Hill or Classen-10-Penn or some other neighborhood that is in the early stages of revitalization.

I think Rand would have the expertise in dealing with this building to be able to find some way to reassemble it without the concrete anchor structures.

----------


## Urbanized

> Aren't there 2 or 3 intimate theaters at the Civic Center?


The intimacy of Stage Center production was thanks to the fact that the rooms are in-the-round. Leads to a completely different type of production. But of course, not every (or even very many) company wants to do non-traditional productions. That is probably a part of the problem.

----------


## yukong

> Aren't there 2 or 3 intimate theaters at the Civic Center?


There is a small theatre with a couple of hundred seats and a standard proscenium type of stage.  To my knowledge it has not been updated like the main venue at the CC.  And there is another hall, but I don't think it is set up for stage shows.  

And as to Stage Center being great as a play house type of setting...that is correct.  I think the thing that has really killed it is the lack of up-keep and then the flooding.  I guess the cost of restoration is more than it would take to build a new playhouse.  And the value of the real estate is way more than can ever be recouped by a playhouse.  Playhouses are not money makers.  Sadly.

----------


## Pete

FYI, there are plans to remodel that smaller theater at the Civic Center.

----------


## Spartan

> The intimacy of Stage Center production was thanks to the fact that the rooms are in-the-round. Leads to a completely different type of production. But of course, not every (or even very many) company wants to do non-traditional productions. That is probably a part of the problem.


Shakespeare in the Park uses the water stage which is a half-circle, for lack of having the theater verbiage at my fingertips

----------


## Just the facts

> I guess the cost of restoration is more than it would take to build a new playhouse.  And the value of the real estate is way more than can ever be recouped by a playhouse.  Playhouses are not money makers.  Sadly.


It would cost $30 million to restore.  I haven't heard what the selling price is but I wonder how that money is going to be spent?  Maybe a new playhouse?

----------


## Urbanized

> I would be curious to see if some of the pods could be reassembled somewhere else in town. Like in the C2S park, or somewhere in Capitol Hill or Classen-10-Penn or some other neighborhood that is in the early stages of revitalization.
> 
> I think Rand would have the expertise in dealing with this building to be able to find some way to reassemble it without the concrete anchor structures.


I keep hearing people say this, but other than the walkways and the mechanical rooms perched on top, the building is basically a giant reinforced concrete structure. There is no option whatsoever to "relocate" it; only to rebuild it. And as challenging as it has been to keep the thing going in its current location it would be pure folly to invest tens of millions into rebuilding the same structure elsewhere. When it's gone, it's gone. Real talk. I think the relocation argument is mostly a cop-out that keeps folks from admitting it is (or should be) a tough decision to tear it down.

That said, I have always been consistent in saying while I am 100% against tearing it down speculatively I would not personally be haunted by a decision to demolish it for a real project of measurably higher and better use.

----------


## Pete

Yes, and I also want to say that for the longest time I was not crazy about Stage Center being demolished.

But I've come to a place of acceptance, especially because I think we'll see something great built on that site in the very near future.

----------


## hoya

> Yeah, and it kicks the sh*t out of most local art theater houses.
> 
> No doubt Stage Center is not ideal for housing large traveling productions of Cats or anything. Nor is it some Grand venue. But that doesn't make it worthless. As a performer, I know you know that most playhouses, even in the country's largest cities, are very nondescript rooms with very little seating and modest intimate green rooms, if at all. I'm pretty amazed that a city like Oklahoma City, with it's less than stellar history of supporting local arts, was ever at a place where it was willing to spend the time, energy and money to go out on a limb and build something like Stage Center at all, honestly. Ironically, it is probably more in a position to do so now than it has been for awhile, but instead will be losing another intimate venue.


My opinion on Stage Center has changed over the years I've been on this site.  At first I couldn't wait to see it go.  Now I see it differently.  I understand that there were a lot of people back in the IM Pei days who looked at the Biltmore and other old buildings we'd love to have back, and said "but it's all run down now..."  Today I'd prefer not to repeat those mistakes.  I'd love to see Stage Center saved and renovated.

The question is, how long do we wait?  Do we let it sit empty for another 20 years just on the chance that someone comes along and saves it?  I actually wouldn't mind that, but we seem to have someone who wants to put a 700+ ft tall tower there.  I'm not going to clap if and when this thing gets torn down, but if a new skyscraper does get built there, isn't that an acceptable trade-off?

When I was in grade school they used to take us downtown to go to the arts festival.  I didn't know what Stage Center was back then, but I do remember running around inside of it like it was a big playground/jungle gym.  If there was a concerted effort to turn it into a children's museum or something, someone actively working to save it, maybe we could redirect OG&E/Centerpoint or whoever to some other property (it's not like we are out of empty land downtown).  But unlike some of those old buildings we lost in the 70s, Stage Center has never had that many people who liked it.  I don't think there's much popular support for it.

----------


## Urbanized

> Shakespeare in the Park uses the water stage which is a half-circle, for lack of having the theater verbiage at my fingertips


The Globe and other Elizabethan theaters were very similar to in-the-round theaters of today, with audiences on three sides and the action protruding into the crowd somewhat, so the Water Stage actually lends itself to Shakespeare pretty well.

----------


## Pete

One good thing about any Stage Center demolition controversy:  People will be expecting/demanding something of good quality that interacts with the street & park with guarantees it WILL get built and soon.

Be pretty difficult to reveal plans to develop that site without some big promises.

----------


## yukong

> It would cost $30 million to restore.  I haven't heard what the selling price is but I wonder how that money is going to be spent?  Maybe a new playhouse?


If it will cost that much...there is literally no way that it will ever reach a break even point.  No use of the current structure will ever make a 30 million investment worth while.  No wonder it sits empty.  No one is willing to invest that with no chance of any type of return on that investment.  If it was a large venue that could house large productions and shows, it might work...but this setup will never get there.  I hate to see it go, but a big new beautiful tower that enhances our skyline is built...it needs to go.

----------


## hoya

You know if the city used the money from the sale of the property to build a new avante-garde theater somewhere else, it may more than make up for the loss of a non-functional Stage Center.

----------


## Rover

There is a small theater in the basement of the Civic Center which houses "in the round" plays staged by Oklahoma Repertory Theater - CityRep.  It is great.  We don't really need SC to remain open to support these.  That doesn't mean I want SC to go, just that there is an active theater seen already going on that isn't dependent and wouldn't necessarily expand with SC.  Certainly the sect that will attend these wouldn't be large enough to justify the huge reconstruction expense. If SC is to survive, it needs other and additional justification than this.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> You know if the city used the money from the sale of the property to build a new avante-garde theater somewhere else, it may more than make up for the loss of a non-functional Stage Center.


the city doesn't own the stage center

----------


## hoya

Thought they owned the property and it was under management by someone else.  Who does own it?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Thought they owned the property and it was under management by someone else.  Who does own it?


oklahoma city communtiy foundation

----------


## Spartan

> The Globe and other Elizabethan theaters were very similar to in-the-round theaters of today, with audiences on three sides and the action protruding into the crowd somewhat, so the Water Stage actually lends itself to Shakespeare pretty well.


Right, but would you call that a theater in the round? I'm curious just what kind of stage we would call the water stage.. esp after we've dumped so much money into it in the last five years.

As for re-assembling the Stage Center, I think that you use the brightly-colored pods, the exposed building systems (which in this case would be purely aesthetic and non-functioning), the connecting tubes, and the metal walkways. There is more than enough going on around the concrete anchor structures to be able to re-assemble it into a meaningful and unique park feature.

I'm just angry that we're now bending over backward just to design and build a boilerplate urban park when instead we should be bending over backward to design and build a park that is meaningful and locally relevant and useful. MAPS3 is nothing but money in search of a use and it just so happens to coincide with a very significant period of historic demolition. Sound familiar?

----------


## BDP

> There is a small theatre with a couple of hundred seats and a standard proscenium type of stage.  To my knowledge it has not been updated like the main venue at the CC.  And there is another hall, but I don't think it is set up for stage shows.  
> 
> And as to Stage Center being great as a play house type of setting...that is correct.  I think the thing that has really killed it is the lack of up-keep and then the flooding.  I guess the cost of restoration is more than it would take to build a new playhouse.  And the value of the real estate is way more than can ever be recouped by a playhouse.  Playhouses are not money makers.  Sadly.


Yes. The reality is that Stage Center was probably over reaching for this market to begin with and it really has come down to that. Playhouses don't make much money even in the best of markets and the uniqueness of the structure has made maintenance hard and the flooding made it impossible. The economics of small scale and local independent art productions and showings is the reason why most small scale art venues are often very understated. It was actually ambitious and optimistic, to say the least, to think Oklahoma City could and would support something like Stage Center and those who did get to experience it in multiple ways were always treated to something that's hard to find in a lot of cities. So, even without the infrastructure challenges, it's long term viability in OKC may have been a long shot from the beginning.

Ideas have been floated on how to save it through re-purposing and fundraising, but it seems nothing has gotten close. I realize its just a dream to think that OKC will have both new corporate towers and a one of a kind mufti-faceted community theater to present local works. Without a rich and powerful angel, Stage Center is probably lost either way and, as a result, Oklahoma City will lose something that was unique to the city. If it hadn't run into maintenance problems that created insurmountable funding shortages, we would probably be able to have both new towers and a local performance and visual arts center. There's no doubt that there is no shortage of land in downtown Oklahoma city to build new high rises. Even as a vacant structure that some view as an eyesore, SC is not preventing anyone from building in downtown Oklahoma City. The existence of SC in any capacity and new towers are in no way mutually exclusive. So, I don't really view it as a trade off. I don't feel like "well it's okay to tear it down, if they build another skyscraper". It's just a loss. One that simply reflects the priorities of a community, priorities that are in no way unique to Oklahoma City, that doesn't feel a place like Stage Center is worth subsidizing to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.

And I get that, but I'm not going to pretend that a new tower will enhance my life like Stage Center did or that I don't think it was a very cool place in which to check out some art and some plays.

But, hey, maybe the corporation that tears it down will value local art and build a couple of equally interesting venues for local productions and art shows in its place as part of its new complex. Maybe even some genius tax accountant can come up with some angle to justify it. Not counting on it, but who knows...

----------


## GaryOKC6

> Right, but would you call that a theater in the round? I'm curious just what kind of stage we would call the water stage.. esp after we've dumped so much money into it in the last five years.
> 
> As for re-assembling the Stage Center, I think that you use the brightly-colored pods, the exposed building systems (which in this case would be purely aesthetic and non-functioning), the connecting tubes, and the metal walkways. There is more than enough going on around the concrete anchor structures to be able to re-assemble it into a meaningful and unique park feature.
> 
> I'm just angry that we're now bending over backward just to design and build a boilerplate urban park when instead we should be bending over backward to design and build a park that is meaningful and locally relevant and useful. MAPS3 is nothing but money in search of a use and it just so happens to coincide with a very significant period of historic demolition. Sound familiar?


I guess we can put you down in the columnfor those who are against MAPS 3

----------


## Spartan

> I guess we can put you down in the columnfor those who are against MAPS 3


I promise you I'm really not. I'm  the biggest proponent of investing in the core with capital investment projects. But I cringe at how poorly MAPS3 is being executed. It's gruesome to watch.

----------


## Urbanized

You should have seen the first one. Point being, the butchering of the steer is not pretty, but hopefully we all get a steak in the end.

----------


## Spartan

> You should have seen the first one. Point being, the butchering of the steer is not pretty, but hopefully we all get a steak in the end.


I'm kind of tired of that phrase because it's not accurate. Besides, I did see the first one as I grew up during it, just wasn't as involved as a little runt.

MAPS1 was successful because we were so far behind at the time that we had nowhere to go but up by taking care of all the low-hanging fruit. This is so totally different. This is the art of taking a successful, revitalized mid-sized downtown to the next level altogether. So far our art is lacking vision and clarity.

----------


## Snowman

> Right, but would you call that a theater in the round? I'm curious just what kind of stage we would call the water stage..


It seems like a hybrid between a thrust stage and an amphatheater

----------


## ljbab728

> There is a small theater in the basement of the Civic Center which houses "in the round" plays staged by Oklahoma Repertory Theater - CityRep.  It is great.  We don't really need SC to remain open to support these.


I have been to several productions at the Reduxion Theater on Broadway and it is definitely a true theater "in the round".

----------


## Urbanized

No Spartan, I am saying the controversies surrounding the first MAPS were FAR more mainstream than the ones surrounding this one currently are. For this MAPS the wailing and gnashing of teeth is - believe it or not - generally confined to this board and a few other places where MAPS and downtown are the primary fodder for the gristmill. The rest of the city is blissfully unaware - at least for the time being - that there are ANY significant controversies surrounding MAPS 3 and/or any of its projects.

Between 1993 and 1998, around half of OKC was legitimately convinced that MAPS was a giant scam and that roughly NONE of the projects would come to fruition. There are light years' differences in public perception between today and the mid-nineties. I'm sorry; our particular world(s) is(are) quite insular. The things that we think of as earth-shaking often don't even register with the at-large world of the 405.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> No Spartan, I am saying the controversies surrounding the first MAPS were FAR more mainstream than the ones surrounding this one currently are. For this MAPS the wailing and gnashing of teeth is - believe it or not - generally confined to this board and a few other places where MAPS and downtown are the primary fodder for the gristmill. The rest of the city is blissfully unaware - at least for the time being - that there are ANY significant controversies surrounding MAPS 3 and/or any of its projects.
> 
> Between 1993 and 1998, around half of OKC was legitimately convinced that MAPS was a giant scam and that roughly NONE of the projects would come to fruition. There are light years' differences in public perception between today and the mid-nineties. I'm sorry; our particular world(s) is(are) quite insular. The things that we think of as earth-shaking often don't even register with the at-large world of the 405.


You are right about that.  Everyone still had the failed "String of Pearls" fresh in their minds and had doubts that MAPS would actually materialize.  The biggest outcry was that we were building a new arena across from the cox center. Opponents said "we don't need 2 arenas" and we all know how that turned out.  I personally think the first MAPS projects turned out better that we expected and an fine will waiting for this one to play out.  I am not losing any sleep over it anyway.

----------


## Spartan

> No Spartan, I am saying the controversies surrounding the first MAPS were FAR more mainstream than the ones surrounding this one currently are. For this MAPS the wailing and gnashing of teeth is - believe it or not - generally confined to this board and a few other places where MAPS and downtown are the primary fodder for the gristmill. The rest of the city is blissfully unaware - at least for the time being - that there are ANY significant controversies surrounding MAPS 3 and/or any of its projects.
> 
> Between 1993 and 1998, around half of OKC was legitimately convinced that MAPS was a giant scam and that roughly NONE of the projects would come to fruition. There are light years' differences in public perception between today and the mid-nineties. I'm sorry; our particular world(s) is(are) quite insular. The things that we think of as earth-shaking often don't even register with the at-large world of the 405.


Is this supposed to be of consolation? OKC is a conservative city and opinion of MAPS can turn on a dime if the conservabots feel threatened. So far it's become something they know to just let happen...

----------


## CaptDave

> Is this supposed to be of consolation? OKC is a conservative city and opinion of MAPS can turn on a dime if the conservabots feel threatened. So far it's become something they know to just let happen...


Ironically it isn't "conservabots" that are the most imminent threat to MAPS - instead it is likely to come from the most liberal member of the city council who will attempt to use libertarian/conservative style talking points for political gain. The vast majority of people in very conservative OKC are fairly happy with what MAPS has accomplished for the city despite some bumps along the way.

----------


## betts

> You are right about that.  Everyone still had the failed "String of Pearls" fresh in their minds and had doubts that MAPS would actually materialize.  The biggest outcry was that we were building a new arena across from the cox center. Opponents said "we don't need 2 arenas" and we all know how that turned out.  I personally think the first MAPS projects turned out better that we expected and an fine will waiting for this one to play out.  I am not losing any sleep over it anyway.


I agree.  This is going to have to be an "in hindsight" evaluation of MAPS 3.  Hardly anything is done yet, or certainly none of the big ticket items.  Let's withold some judgement until we're farther along in the process.  And I agree with Urbanized that most people are unaware of any controversies.  Even looking at our best attended meetings, there were generally more positive than negative reactions to the projects and relatively few complaints about the process or timeline.  This forum and a few people outside of it create a skewed idea of what the general public is thinking, in my experience.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> This forum and a few people outside of it create a skewed idea of what the general public is thinking, in my experience.


So true.

----------


## lasomeday

So less than 15 days until we find out !  Is anybody else counting down?

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> So less than 15 days until we find out !  Is anybody else counting down?


See this post

----------


## bradh

> *Ironically it isn't "conservabots" that are the most imminent threat to MAPS* - instead it is likely to come from the most liberal member of the city council who will attempt to use libertarian/conservative style talking points for political gain. The vast majority of people in very conservative OKC are fairly happy with what MAPS has accomplished for the city despite some bumps along the way.


I wouldn't be so sure about that.  I consider myself conservative, and voted for MAPS3, but I have a coworker who is ultra-conservative and didn't believe in any of the MAPS stuff, thought all of them were scams just to increase taxes, and felt that the city should just try to convince private entities to invest that money in projects instead of the taxpayers.  Yeah, like the city doesn't already work it's tail off to get private investment.

----------


## Rover

Can we take all the Maps stuff to another forum PLEASE?  Why does every thread turn into the same posturing?

----------


## Thundercitizen

> ...and felt that the city should just try to convince private entities to invest that money in projects instead of the taxpayers.


Is that guy originally from Seattle...a Sonics fan, perhaps?

And came across this as I was making space on my iPhone 7S.

----------


## Snowman

> I wouldn't be so sure about that. I consider myself conservative, and voted for MAPS3, but I have a coworker who is ultra-conservative and didn't believe in any of the MAPS stuff, thought all of them were scams just to increase taxes, and felt that the city should just try to convince private entities to invest that money in projects instead of the taxpayers. Yeah, like the city doesn't already work it's tail off to get private investment.





> Is that guy originally from Seattle...a Sonics fan, perhaps?


I have heard that type of sentiment more from Tulsa, especially with some that remember how back in the day they had the people writing those kind of checks for seemingly everything, not nearly so much today. It is nice when you have that but really you can not count on it for everything.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Is that guy originally from Seattle...a Sonics fan, perhaps?
> 
> And came across this as I was making space on my iPhone 7S.


Yeah, I had to do a double take on that!

----------


## HangryHippo

Maybe we will find out this month after all:

Downtown moves could signal new tower for Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

----------


## Thundercitizen

Uh oh...here we go.  Put your seatbelts on, everyone.

----------


## ljbab728

> Maybe we will find out this month after all:
> 
> Downtown moves could signal new tower for Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com


I'm totally for the Preftakes' block being redeveloped but I certainly hope that doesn't entail the destruction of the old Hotel Black building.

----------


## HOT ROD

nor the destruction of the auto hotel

----------


## CaptDave

> Maybe we will find out this month after all:
> 
> Downtown moves could signal new tower for Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com


Wonder why comments are disabled by The Oklahoman?  :Wink:

----------


## Teo9969

Out of curiosity, were a spec tower to be built, let's pretend on the Preftakes block, who would (could?) build such a structure? It's not exactly cheap, but could be very profitable for that individual.

----------


## G.Walker

> Maybe we will find out this month after all:
> 
> Downtown moves could signal new tower for Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com


So I guess this is Mystery Tower #2?

----------


## LuccaBrasi

> Out of curiosity, were a spec tower to be built, let's pretend on the Preftakes block, who would (could?) build such a structure? It's not exactly cheap, but could be very profitable for that individual.


Doubtful it's one individual, but possibly a group lead by Mark Beffort if it were spec class A with possibly an anchor company.

Two articles in a week.....it appears things are about to pop. If it is two separate towers, and to leverage the maximum "wow" factor for OKC, I could see where behind the scenes this is being synchronized for a simultaneous announcement, or close to it,  including the likes of the Mayor, Roy Williams, Cathy O'Conner, Mary Falin, CEO's like Pete Delaney, Beffort........

----------


## Dustin

> Maybe we will find out this month after all:
> 
> Downtown moves could signal new tower for Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com


What a great way to start my morning!

----------


## catch22

Just dangling that carrot.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Out of curiosity, were a spec tower to be built, let's pretend on the Preftakes block, who would (could?) build such a structure? It's not exactly cheap, but could be very profitable for that individual.


Do you not buy into the theory that Devon was behind the Preftakes' buy up of that block for a second Devon Tower?

----------


## Pete

Regarding the Preftakes block, keep in mind the City was very aggressive with their timeline for the new Main Street parking garage.

It's already well under construction and they didn't even wait around to see if they could get the housing piece to work.

----------


## SOONER8693

> Just dangling that carrot.


Exactly. Some of the "ususal suspects" trying to keep themselves pertinent.

----------


## Teo9969

> Just dangling that carrot.


Yes and no.

Steve putting as much information out as he has, he really is on the hook for a tower (or two). If it (they) is not announced by the end of the year, he will have alienated readership. To be honest, if some sort of concrete details don't come out within the next 3 months, I can't see Steve not losing some credibility.

The "March" announcement was reasonably well predicted. The MLP was a pretty big deal and that coming to the surface, though it ended up not being a tower announcement, is every bit as sizable of an announcement as a tower announcement.

I think with all this, Steve is probably both very certain and very correct that announcement is imminent. With Pete saying similar things, I'd be willing to make a good wager that we know something before the Red River Shootout.

----------


## Teo9969

> Do you not buy into the theory that Devon was behind the Preftakes' buy up of that block for a second Devon Tower?


No, I buy into it, but I'm leaving open other possibilities. I'm still 85% behind the idea that it's Devon.

----------


## Pete

I think we all need to give Steve a break.

He's a newspaper reporter for a big company with several editors.  Trust me, he would love to be able to say more but he has built-in limitations, and that's how it should be:  He does the fact-checking and we can speculate.

Most of you have no concept of what goes into one of his articles; and he cranks out several a week, plus his blog, plus his chats, tweets all the time and writes comprehensive history books on the side!  I consider myself a prolific writer and I am completely in awe of what he does, especially because there is so much work around research, interviewing, and having to be get everything exactly RIGHT, otherwise people go crazy.

At some point, I should write an extensive piece about my experience in working with Bloomberg on an article about Chesapeake.  Short version:  I worked for weeks with one of their national reporters; even met with him for a whole day in OKC.  And in the end, all of it came to virtually nothing due to their own relationship with CHK, journalistic realities and trying to please multiple editors.  It was one of the most frustrating things I've ever encountered.  And it was incredibly hard work!


Anyway, I really appreciate this article because Steve does present a lot of information, like people being given a hard deadline about moving out by next April, that the Devon sub-contractors leased tons of space in One N Hudson, that Preftakes won't even talk to him, etc.


Imagine OKC without Steve Lackmeyer.  He does a fantastic job and is an incredible champion for downtown.

He and I also share a lot of information and I usually can't give him credit.

----------


## Teo9969

Just to clarify, my post was not meant to dog Steve in anyway.

I think objectively speaking (meaning as someone a non-OKCTalker) Steve has painted a picture that people are going to expect to see come to fruition soon enough. I think the general public has more patience than OKCTalk, and that's why I think you see some here think that a tower isn't even going to happen. But frequent readers of the general public will want information at some point as well and I think that point is approaching.

I also think Steve is very aware of his readership and what their expectations are and I imagine he will meet those expectations. That, or at some point he will have to be vindicated for the delay of a major story.

----------


## coov23

My guess is OG&E will build on Stage center, while Devon does on the Preftakes block and labels it a "multitenant" building so they can house their growing workforce and others who need class A space downtown. 

That leaves the MLP and continental left to build in the meat future. Also, Steve tweeted me yesterday that, with the downtown housing boom, and occupancy rates very low, there are several contractors looking to build mid and high rise residential downtown, as well. 

There could be a construction boom in the works for downtown in the next 5-10 years!

----------


## Pete

> Just to clarify, my post was not meant to dog Steve in anyway.


Understood!

My post was more about the recent frustration by many here; something I inadvertently fueled.

I get frustrated with the traditional media as well and I posted some things that set the wrong tone, and I apologize for that.


Local journalists will never give this site it's proper due, but that will probably never change and in the end, it really doesn't make much difference.

----------


## G.Walker

New Video:

Downtown moves could signal new tower for Oklahoma City | News OK

----------


## Urbanized

Thanks for posting that, Pete. I've kept my mouth shut on this because Steve is a longtime friend of mine, and anything I might say would surely be partisan. But I've become really dismayed how this forum seems to have become a daily referendum on Steve and his work.

Most of the negative posts I see come from people who obviously didn't go to J-school and have no idea how journalism actually works. I often see posts from folks who can't/won't differentiate between (opinion-based) columns, blog posts and hard news. He does an excellent job of staying true to each format.

We (non-journalist users of this board) have the luxury of being able to pass rumor and conjecture here for entertainment's sake and without consequence. Those who are anonymous can even pass falsehoods, with the only risk being the loss of credibility of their anonymous profiles on this board. Steve and other journalists play by a different set of rules. On the record vs. off the record must be respected. Editors must be placated. Facts must be nailed down and sourced.

I personally know of many stories (even a few blockbuster ones) that Steve had basically nailed but could not report because those directly involved remained tight-lipped. Sometimes he can get them nailed anyway thanks to inadvertent public statements by the players, or through open-records requests, but not always. He religiously honors his promises to keep off-the-record conversations and leads exactly that, even though it can be personally frustrating for him. This his how powerful sources are developed; through trust. Steve has powerful sources, largely because they know that they can trust him with off-the-record information. He might not be able to report what they tell him, but he can use it to chase the story and get it nailed elsewhere. He is a master at putting fragments together and figuring out the whole story.

Pete is absolutely correct when laying out how mind-numbing the professional reporting of news stories can be; and they can often take months if not years to come together. Many of us seem to think that major stories (and developments) happen roughly overnight. It often could not be further from the truth. Perhaps scandals reveal themselves suddenly, but large (and real) developments usually do not. For instance, I know for a fact that Steve was on the trail of the Devon Tower story for a couple of years, and had the basic facts nailed months in advance of the official announcement. 

Thanks to my friendship with him, I knew many of the facts that he COULD repeat (because he trusted ME not to repeat them), but much as this thread is frustrating to many, there were a large number of things he could NOT tell me, because he had learned them in confidence. I wanted to know more, but he wouldn't/couldn't tell me. End of story. If he would have REPORTED prematurely, he would have burned sources (and placed them at-risk professionally), lost an opportunity to closely cover the construction with Devon's cooperation, and even perhaps might have jeopardized the project itself. That is weighty responsibility.

That's the way he works. If he were in a position where he had everything nailed and could professionally report the mystery tower story without violating journalistic ethics, he would do it. When he can, he will.  None of us on this board, besides the other true journalists who occasionally post here, are bound by those types of restrictions, except as set by our own consciences.

----------


## Just the facts

> That leaves the MLP and continental left to build in the meat future. Also, Steve tweeted me yesterday that, with the downtown housing boom, and occupancy rates very low, there are several contractors looking to build mid and high rise residential downtown, as well. 
> 
> There could be a construction boom in the works for downtown in the next 5-10 years!


I think over the next few years (and probably even well after that), the number of residential building constructed will vastly out number the office buildings constructed.  Downtown OKC is going to change and residential development will be the primary driver.  It might not change the skyline as much but it will definitely thicken the urban fabric.

----------


## warreng88

> My guess is OG&E will build on Stage center, while Devon does on the Preftakes block and labels it a "multitenant" building so they can house their growing workforce and others who need class A space downtown. 
> 
> That leaves the MLP and continental left to build in the meat future. Also, Steve tweeted me yesterday that, with the downtown housing boom, and occupancy rates very low, there are several contractors looking to build mid and high rise residential downtown, as well. 
> 
> There could be a construction boom in the works for downtown in the next 5-10 years!


I really think we could see someone redoing FNC as well. I know it would work best as a hotel, but I could see Continental coming in, gutting it and redoing it for their own office space. If they did just FNC, they could get a brand new building for under $100 or so.

----------


## Pete

As everything fills in and up around it, a complete redo for FNC becomes more realistic.

It's still a gorgeous, unique property with an incredible location and unlimited potential.  And at least the lights are still on, which will make it much easier to renovate than something like the Skirvin or even Dowell Center.  Once a building completely closes, it seems infinitely harder to get it back on track.

With the complete redevelopment of eastern downtown (all the SandRidge work, Carnegie Centre, etc.), it looking like western downtown is getting ready to explode, and even the lowly Century Center set for a complete makeover, that really leaves First National as the last big piece of the puzzle.  At some point that property just becomes too valuable for something *not* to happen there.

----------


## soonerguru

> I think over the next few years (and probably even well after that), the number of residential building constructed will vastly out number the office buildings constructed.  Downtown OKC is going to change and residential development will be the primary driver.  It might not change the skyline as much but it will definitely thicken the urban fabric.


I think you're right about this. I'm visiting Austin in September and my family member who lives there says the number of high-rise residential projects there is just staggering. We are not the same city but we're witnessing an explosion in residential development that is historic by our own city's standards. That said, mid-rise and high-rise development for housing hasn't yet occurred, but with the trajectory of everything we're seeing, should start happening soon. 

As someone who has been a fan of an improved downtown and inner-city for 20-plus years, it is refreshing to see our city leaders look to other models besides Dallas. For the longest time, it seemed everything discussed was some "little brother of Big D" idea. Now it's nice to see us looking at places like Austin, Portland, Charlotte and other cities for inspiration and ideas.

----------


## hoya

I think everyone here appreciates Steve.  It just becomes frustrating when he teases "big announcement" and then his chat talks about trying Waffle House for the first time.  That doesn't have anything to do with not revealing sources, or maintaining his professional ethics, that's just a tease at a time when this board is already really antsy.  I speak to journalists about some of my cases, and I can definitely appreciate the value of "on the record" vs "off the record".  And I can say that the next time I get screwed over by a reporter for the Oklahoman will be the first time.  My experiences with them have always been pleasant.

But he's totally been in tease mode lately.

As far as the towers go, _something_ is going on at the Preftakes block, unless you think Nick Preftakes is in the business of buying up expensive properties, kicking out paying tenants, and holding empty buildings.  I dunno, maybe he's going to sit on the top floor of the Hotel Black and pee in mason jars or something.  Something is also going on right across the street at Stage Center.  And the city very hurriedly began construction of a parking garage on Main.  Perhaps they want it complete to provide parking for all the new construction workers, given that Devon's old construction parking lot is now going to be a school.

All this points to a big development soon.  I don't know what is going to happen.  My only inside source is I used to represent a homeless guy who sleeps at the bus station.  He says the CIA is involved somehow.  Apart from that, I don't know.  Perhaps there's a spec office tower that will be built on the Preftakes block that will have Devon as an anchor tenant.

----------


## Rover

> Exactly. Some of the "ususal suspects" trying to keep themselves pertinent.


I am not sure who you think needs PR to stay "pertinent".  The usual suspects ARE pertinent.

----------


## HangryHippo

Pete, is your source saying we should finally hear something this month regarding the Stage Center site as well?

----------


## MikeLucky

> Thanks for posting that, Pete. I've kept my mouth shut on this because Steve is a longtime friend of mine, and anything I might say would surely be partisan. But I've become really dismayed how this forum seems to have become a daily referendum on Steve and his work.
> 
> Most of the negative posts I see come from people who obviously didn't go to J-school and have no idea how journalism actually works. I often see posts from folks who can't/won't differentiate between (opinion-based) columns, blog posts and hard news. He does an excellent job of staying true to each format.
> 
> We (non-journalist users of this board) have the luxury of being able to pass rumor and conjecture here for entertainment's sake and without consequence. Those who are anonymous can even pass falsehoods, with the only risk being the loss of credibility of their anonymous profiles on this board. Steve and other journalists play by a different set of rules. On the record vs. off the record must be respected. Editors must be placated. Facts must be nailed down and sourced.
> 
> I personally know of many stories (even a few blockbuster ones) that Steve had basically nailed but could not report because those directly involved remained tight-lipped. Sometimes he can get them nailed anyway thanks to inadvertent public statements by the players, or through open-records requests, but not always. He religiously honors his promises to keep off-the-record conversations and leads exactly that, even though it can be personally frustrating for him. This his how powerful sources are developed; through trust. Steve has powerful sources, largely because they know that they can trust him with off-the-record information. He might not be able to report what they tell him, but he can use it to chase the story and get it nailed elsewhere. He is a master at putting fragments together and figuring out the whole story.
> 
> Pete is absolutely correct when laying out how mind-numbing the professional reporting of news stories can be; and they can often take months if not years to come together. Many of us seem to think that major stories (and developments) happen roughly overnight. It often could not be further from the truth. Perhaps scandals reveal themselves suddenly, but large (and real) developments usually do not. For instance, I know for a fact that Steve was on the trail of the Devon Tower story for a couple of years, and had the basic facts nailed months in advance of the official announcement. 
> ...


I am well aware of the details of Steve's job and limitations therein...  But, even given that he's still being a _LITTLE BIT_ of a drama queen.  But, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the legitimate work that he does.

----------


## Jim Kyle

> But, even given that he's still being a _LITTLE BIT_ of a drama queen.


This seems like a good place to inject a personal anecdote: One of the required courses in OU's J-School when I was there in the early 50s was "Ethics of Journalism" and it was taught by Henry H. Herbert, who founded the journalism school back in 1913 or so. The cornerstone of his teaching method was to have a weekly true-or-false quiz on material covered earlier in the week, with the class grading each others' papers, and every question open to challenge. If any student could convince a majority of the class that Mr. Herbert's answer was wrong, then the "correct" answer would be reversed. As he explained, "ethics" wasn't well enough defined to be teachable, so he was teaching us how to evaluate situations and effectively how to think for ourselves. BTW, it was one of the two most important classes in my four years at OU, so far as I'm concerned 61 years after graduation. The other was Walter S. Cambell's course in professional writing, which has guided my career ever since.

Anyway, at one quiz during the last couple of weeks in the semester, it seemed to me that each and every question was so ambiguous as to have no single correct answer. After about a dozen of them, I asked him, "Are you trying to trick us this week?"

And his reply (delivered in his usual dry tone of voice) was, "Mr. Kyle, after teaching this class for almost 40 years, one DOES become a bit bored at times..."

I imagine the same feeling occurs to Steve occasionally!

----------


## Pete

> I am well aware of the details of Steve's job and limitations therein...  But, even given that he's still being a _LITTLE BIT_ of a drama queen.  But, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the legitimate work that he does.


Yes, and it should also be said that this site is a great outlet and alternative to the traditional journalists and local power brokers that for too long held too much power and frequently abused it.

I think a certain amount of criticism towards the local media is healthy, which is why we have never censored it or much of anything here.  Still, it's best for everyone if things remain respectful.

In fact, I've made this point privately a few times:  This site and other new media outlets have a great deal of power as long as things don't get so carried away that all the leverage and ability to influence gets discredited by extreme hyperbole.


For their own part, traditional journalists also have to adjust to the new realities of two-way public communication.  They may not like to be criticized or challenged -- especially those that spent a good deal of time in the era of the one-directional, loud microphone with heavily censored feedback -- but things have changed forever and there is also a backlog of frustration that is still pouring forth.

Reporters for the Oklahoman will be paying for the sins of their predecessors for quite some time, but that comes with the territory and the paycheck.

----------


## Pete

> Pete, is your source saying we should finally hear something this month regarding the Stage Center site as well?


All I've heard is that the soil tests are complete and it seems all the other preliminary arrangements (easements, etc.) have been resolved as much as they can be at this point.

So, I think they've made all the progress they can until this becomes public and things can move forward in a formal, open manner, such as the various necessary approval processes.


I really do think this is just like the Devon Tower posturing, where they had a ton of meetings behind the scenes but they didn't actually buy the land/garage and jump through any of the other hoops until they had their press conference.

----------


## OU Adonis

Every time i hear soil test come up I think of some old guy in overalls coming out and grabbing some dirt and saying "Yep, this is definitely soil".

----------


## soonerguru

> Yes, and it should also be said that this site is a great outlet and alternative to the traditional journalists and local power brokers that for too long held too much power and frequently abused it.
> 
> I think a certain amount of criticism towards the local media is healthy, which is why we have never censored it or much of anything here.  Still, it's best for everyone if things remain respectful.
> 
> In fact, I've made this point privately a few times:  This site and other new media outlets have a great deal of power as long as things don't get so carried away that all the leverage and ability to influence gets discredited by extreme hyperbole.
> 
> 
> For their own part, traditional journalists also have to adjust to the new realities of two-way public communication.  They may not like to be criticized or challenged -- especially those that spent a good deal of time in the era of the one-directional, loud microphone with heavily censored feedback -- but things have changed forever and there is also a backlog of frustration that is still pouring forth.
> 
> Reporters for the Oklahoman will be paying for the sins of their predecessors for quite some time, but that comes with the territory and the paycheck.


Great points. My instinct is to defend this site most of the time. There may be some occasional flashes of personal animus here, but for the most part the discussions, even when somewhat controversial, remain civil and respectful. So there have been some moments where I've spoken out to defend this site from what I perceived to be patronizing nonsense. The last thing I would ever want to do is undermine OKCTalk's credibility. But let's keep in mind that this is a message forum where people are encouraged to share ideas and opinions, we're not always going to agree, we don't have all the answers (although we may have solid inside information), and some people are always going to blanch a little when they are questioned or challenged. While striving to keep things from being personal in nature, some people just react to things very personally.

To add: as good of a job as many local journalists do, and as hard as they work, that doesn't place them in a special category beyond reproach. Unlike traditional media, a message forum is a true marketplace of ideas, where anyone can join the discourse provided they don't abuse the privilege. So if we do question a particular journalist, or another poster, or a stakeholder or leader in the community, we should strive to do so in a respectful manner. This is something I'm committing to working on myself.

----------


## MikeLucky

> This seems like a good place to inject a personal anecdote: One of the required courses in OU's J-School when I was there in the early 50s was "Ethics of Journalism" and it was taught by Henry H. Herbert, who founded the journalism school back in 1913 or so. The cornerstone of his teaching method was to have a weekly true-or-false quiz on material covered earlier in the week, with the class grading each others' papers, and every question open to challenge. If any student could convince a majority of the class that Mr. Herbert's answer was wrong, then the "correct" answer would be reversed. As he explained, "ethics" wasn't well enough defined to be teachable, so he was teaching us how to evaluate situations and effectively how to think for ourselves. BTW, it was one of the two most important classes in my four years at OU, so far as I'm concerned 61 years after graduation. The other was Walter S. Cambell's course in professional writing, which has guided my career ever since.
> 
> Anyway, at one quiz during the last couple of weeks in the semester, it seemed to me that each and every question was so ambiguous as to have no single correct answer. After about a dozen of them, I asked him, "Are you trying to trick us this week?"
> 
> And his reply (delivered in his usual dry tone of voice) was, "Mr. Kyle, after teaching this class for almost 40 years, one DOES become a bit bored at times..."
> 
> I imagine the same feeling occurs to Steve occasionally!


It's like you and I took the exact same classes at OU... maybe just a year or two apart, though.  lol

I, of all people, would never condemn a good ole funnin.  It's practically all I do anymore.  BUT, when you decide to stop posting on a message board then go out of your way to take snipes at said message board, then it comes off a little more as "childish tantrum" than "oh, look at that prankster."  But, as I said before... I DO appreciate the legitimate work Steve does.  I just wish he'd spend more time here on the board telling people like me to "f*** off" rather than run away and scream at me as he reaches the horizon.

----------


## Spartan

I say next two weeks. I have seen hype, and now i have seen this.

----------


## Just the facts

> My money is on an August 1st announcement: http://files.shareholder.com/downloa..._1_General.pdf


So another month  :Smiley122:

----------


## G.Walker

Steve, if you break the story on new tower this month, I will buy you lunch at Richey's Grill (PHF). I met you there before, and I don't know if you tried their Norwegian Turkey Melts, but let's just say they are the best thing ever created!  :Hungry:

----------


## warreng88

Steve, if you break the story on the new tower this month, I will buy you anything you want from Cuppies and Joe. I have see you there several times but never wanted to impose on your time playing checkers with your children and I don't know if you have tried their frozen hot chocolate, but let's just say it is the best thing ever created!  :Donatello:

----------


## UnFrSaKn

G. Walker, you must be as excited right now as a new father eagerly awaits his first born. (It is exciting I agree)

----------


## hoya

> Steve, if you break the story on new tower this month, I will buy you lunch at Richey's Grill (PHF). I met you there before, and I don't know if you tried their Norwegian Turkey Melts, but let's just say they are the best thing ever created!


Get their pork tenderloin.  It's not on the menu, you just have to ask for it.  They don't always have it, but it's excellent.

----------


## Praedura

Ok folks... all these tidbits and appetizers are great. And I've appreciated them. But enough soup and crackers... bring on the main course!
 :Hungry: 

(translation: I want my tower announcement already!)

----------


## Praedura

I want my tower announcement NOW! NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!!!!!



Will it help if I promise to hold my breath until my face turns blue unless I get some announcement?

 :Smile:

----------


## Patrick

Guys, Midfirst Bank is planning on selling their headquarters to CHK. Midfirst owns several subsidiaries with headquarters in other states. Presidential Financial in Atlanta is one example. Meritax in Dallas is another. They're going to build a new tower in downtown OKC to consolidate all business here. Just FYI from one of my business friends (who will remain nameless) who is on the BOD at Midfirst.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Just dangling that carrot.


Was this the tower you brought back???  :Wink:

----------


## Patrick

Also, from what I've heard from another friend in the business world, OGE is indeed looking to possibly build a tower in downtown to consolidate operations...namely OG&E and Enogex, among others. 

Continental is entertaining the option of building a new tower but that's in their over 5 years out plan. No concrete plans in the next 5 years.

----------


## Pete

> Guys, Midfirst Bank is planning on selling their headquarters to CHK. Midfirst owns several subsidiaries with headquarters in other states. Presidential Financial in Atlanta is one example. They're going to build a new tower in downtown OKC to consolidate all business here. Just FYI from one of my business friends (who will remain nameless) who is on the BOD at Midfirst.


I think that was true at one time but I can't believe Chesapeake would be buying the MidFirst properties while they are selling other buildings.

They are almost doubling the amount of space on their campus just with the buildings they are opening this year, and at the same time, selling off assets and business units.


I really wish it were true about MidFirst but I think the situation has changed and if anything, they may be buying *from* Chesapeake for their own expansion plans.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Guys,* Midfirst Bank is planning on selling their headquarters to CHK.* Midfirst owns several subsidiaries with headquarters in other states. Presidential Financial in Atlanta is one example. Meritax in Dallas is another. They're going to build a new tower in downtown OKC to consolidate all business here. Just FYI from one of my business friends (who will remain nameless) who is on the BOD at Midfirst.


I thought this was shot down, also, CHK is downsizing and not interested in MidFirst HQ location anymore, as someone else has confirmed.

----------


## Patrick

American Fidelity had considered downtown but OPUBCO gave them a pretty good deal with plenty if room to expand.,

----------


## Pete

We have a really good source inside of MidFirst who alerted me about them taking a run at the OPUBCO properties, which is how I knew about American Fidelity actually outbidding them, long before it broke in the press.

And that source told me that MidFirst is not moving now because 1) Chesapeake is no longer in a position to buy their existing properties and 2) Chesapeake may actually sell them the Grand Park buildings.


I would LOVE it if MidFirst built downtown but I really don't think that is going to happen.  I think that ship has sailed, just like it did for American Fidelity.

Hope I'm proven wrong!

----------


## Patrick

> I thought this was shot down, also, CHK is downsizing and not interested in MidFirst HQ location anymore, as someone else has confirmed.


You're probably right about the buyer for their property. I hadn't heard anything about that lately. But MF would like to consolidate operations so a move from their current property is on the horizon for certain.

CHK is selling a lot of their properties around town that have nothing to do with their general operations, and is likely getting out of the real estate business altogether (after all, they are an ENERGY company), but they'll continue expansion (albeit at a slower rate) of their main campus, as they sell off other properties.

----------


## Patrick

Yeah, but MF hasn't made their move yet. AF has.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Also, from what I've heard from another friend in the business world, OGE is indeed looking to possibly build a tower in downtown to consolidate operations...namely OG&E and Enogex, among others. 
> 
> Continental is entertaining the option of building a new tower but that's in their over 5 years out plan. No concrete plans in the next 5 years.


You may want to go back and read the previous 20 pages of this thread......OG&E, Enogex and CenterPoint Energy are all over it.

----------


## Patrick

From all of my sources, I think whoever mentioned OGE corp for the SC site is on the money. From what I've heard, Pete Delaney and co. have made an offer already  for the SC site.

----------


## Patrick

> You may want to go back and read the previous 20 pages of this thread......OG&E, Enogex and CenterPoint Energy are all over it.


Yeah, read my previous post. Delaney and company already put up a bid on the SC site. I know for certain they were one of the 3 finalists bidding for the SC site. Keep in mind that's only for that site though. We have 2-3 companies looking at towers downtown right now.

----------


## Patrick

Look for a 30-40 floor OGE corp tower to share the property with a 6 level parking garage.

----------


## HOT ROD

hopefully 40 floor!

Welcome back Patrick!!

----------


## Patrick

> hopefully 40 floor!
> 
> Welcome back Patrick!!


Hey Hot Rod! Good to see you! We helped start OKC Talk back in 2004! Hope all is well in Seattle. I've read some but haven't posted much in a long time, because my medical practice consumes most of my time now.

----------


## Praedura

Patrick, you're kinda scaring me... but in a very good way.  :Smile: 

You seem quite confident of your sources. Let me ask you this about MF: do you have the slightest inkling of a timeline for when they want to build their tower, and do you have any idea about a possible location?

----------


## Patrick

> Patrick, you're kinda scaring me... but in a very good way. 
> 
> You seem quite confident of your sources. Let me ask you this about MF: do you have the slightest inkling of a timeline for when they want to build their tower, and do you have any idea about a possible location?


You know, my sources are just that. So take it with a grain of salt. I wouldn't go to Vegas on MF, because I think they could easily stay where they're at for 5+ more years, but I'd say that OGE is better than 50-50. Lets just say that the space that Enogex is leasing is not cheap, and it would streamline operations to move OG&E, Enogex, and CenterPoint into one place. Lets just say that OGE is more than just an electricity utility these days. My source is a business friend who happens to be OGE's accounting VP. I'll leave it at that.

----------


## buylow

enogex and centerpoint will be housed in a new tower.

/thread

----------


## progressiveboy

I hope that the new tower will be architecturally stunning and not some generic, boxed tower. Everyone seems to be getting really excited about a changing skyline for OKC!

----------


## Spartan

> enogex and centerpoint will be housed in a new tower.
> 
> /thread


The only hurdle that must be cleared for this is that it will probably involve multi-state bidding (probably against Texas) with incentive packages.

----------


## HangryHippo

> The only hurdle that must be cleared for this is that it will probably involve multi-state bidding (probably against Texas) with incentive packages.


You don't think they're beyond the bidding stage in the planning process?

----------


## bchris02

> I hope that the new tower will be architecturally stunning and not some generic, boxed tower. Everyone seems to be getting really excited about a changing skyline for OKC!


A box would be fine if done right. I do hope it isn't a bland glass structure like so many being built these days. I definitely wouldn't complain if it was, but it would be nice to increase variety in the skyline.

----------


## OKCRT

> A box would be fine if done right. I do hope it isn't a bland glass structure like so many being built these days. I definitely wouldn't complain if it was, but it would be nice to increase variety in the skyline.


I hope it has some windows.I would go crazy being way up there without being able to look outside.

----------


## bchris02

> I hope it has some windows.I would go crazy being way up there without being able to look outside.


Of course.  I don't see many skyscrapers being designed without windows today like they were in the 1970s i.e. the AT&T building.  

I am hoping it turns out to be something like this.

----------


## s.hoff

I have nothing against that building, but I hope that our new tower(s) is (are) more iconic than that. Something people can see the shape of and identify that shape with Oklahoma City. It doesn't have to be a radical design, but, in my opinion, that tower is a just a tad on the generic side (though much better than a glass box).

----------


## hoya

I'll be happy with most anything, but I would prefer something that is visually distinctive from Devon.  If Devon is going to build another tower in the next ten years or so, I'd bet the style would be similar to that of their existing tower.  Not that I'd complain about another shiny blue mirror, but we want variety in our skyline to give it a more timeless appearance.  At some point people will look at shiny blue mirror towers like we look at big boxes.  If you are picking women for a harem you don't necessarily want all blondes.

I think even a 50% bigger version of the Chase Tower on the Stage Center block would contrast against Devon nicely.  My preference would be for a limestone exterior, but I'm not sure if anyone is doing that anymore.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I'll be happy with most anything, but I would prefer something that is visually distinctive from Devon.  If Devon is going to build another tower in the next ten years or so, I'd bet the style would be similar to that of their existing tower.  Not that I'd complain about another shiny blue mirror, but we want variety in our skyline to give it a more timeless appearance.  At some point people will look at shiny blue mirror towers like we look at big boxes.  If you are picking women for a harem you don't necessarily want all blondes.
> 
> *I think even a 50% bigger version of the Chase Tower on the Stage Center block would contrast against Devon nicely.*  My preference would be for a limestone exterior, but I'm not sure if anyone is doing that anymore.


I can't think of a building to be copied that I'd prefer less than Chase Tower, but I do agree some diversity would be nice.

I really like the BOA tower in Charlotte.

----------


## bchris02

> I have nothing against that building, but I hope that our new tower(s) is (are) more iconic than that. Something people can see the shape of and identify that shape with Oklahoma City. It doesn't have to be a radical design, but, in my opinion, that tower is a just a tad on the generic side (though much better than a glass box).


I get what you are saying. I think the Devon Tower is our iconic tower. It would be cool if the building is somewhat unique but not truely radical. Something like 700 Louisiana in Houston. It's not their tallest tower but its their most iconic. Houston is instantly recognizable by it.

----------


## bchris02

> I can't think of a building to be copied that I'd prefer less than Chase Tower, but I do agree some diversity would be nice.
> 
> I really like the BOA tower in Charlotte.


I agree. I am not a huge fan of the 70s box style towers like the Chase tower. Nothing against it, just architecture from that period of time was less than stellar.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I'd say our most iconic building is in the hands of someone who doesn't live here or care about the building or city.

----------


## hoya

> I can't think of a building to be copied that I'd prefer less than Chase Tower


The AT&T building with no windows?  :Smile: 

I really dislike (what I think of as) the 90s towers that went up in Charlotte and other cities.  Ugly, ugly buildings.  I'd rather have a big old 70s box.




> I'd say our most iconic building is in the hands of someone who doesn't live here or care about the building or city.


Perhaps our best loved, but most people think of First National as a much smaller copy of the ESB.

----------


## Pete

I've now heard from two good sources that an announcement is coming very soon, probably next week and possibly as early as Monday.

----------


## bradh

I'm partial because it's where I'm from, but I love the Transco/Williams Tower in Houston (always loved the searchlight at the top as a kid)

----------


## jedicurt

> I've now heard from two good sources that an announcement is coming very soon, probably next week and possibly as early as Monday.


I heard this morning that it could be next wednesday, but this was one of those, i overheard someone who overheard someone who knows someone... I'm just throwing it out because i heard it, not because i believe there is any weight to it.

----------


## HangryHippo

> The AT&T building with no windows? 
> 
> I really dislike (what I think of as) the 90s towers that went up in Charlotte and other cities.  Ugly, ugly buildings.  I'd rather have a big old 70s box.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps our best loved, but most people think of First National as a much smaller copy of the ESB.


Well, I do dislike that AT&T building, but I find the Chase Tower to be equally depressing.  I'll have to look around and see what else might be a good model.

----------


## catch22

I like Chase Tower.

Looks small now, but I like it. Building architecture is like a tree's growth rings. You can see when and how fast downtown was growing. In the future our 20 year building gap will be fairly visible when Devon and the next few mystery towers get constructed. You'll see the tree went into hibernation in the 80's and then came back to life in the late 00's.

----------


## Pete

Let me clarify my previous post:  I am hearing from more than one source that an announcement regarding the Stage Center site and proposed tower will likely happen next week.

Probably not Monday; more likely the second half of the week.

----------


## s00nr1

Thanks for the info Pete. If I had to guess, the announcement will only concern the purchase and demolition and will not reveal the design plans for the new tower.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I said I was using my vacation time as the over/under. I leave on the 27th and I predicted over.

----------


## bchris02

> Thanks for the info Pete. If I had to guess, the announcement will only concern the purchase and demolition and will not reveal the design plans for the new tower.


It would be best to have a rendering at the point of announcing the demolishion of the Stage Center, if only to quell some of the preservationists who will be up in arms about it.

----------


## Praedura

> Thanks for the info Pete. If I had to guess, the announcement will only concern the purchase and demolition and will not reveal the design plans for the new tower.


Boo! Hiss! I hope you're wrong about that.

----------


## pickles

> Thanks for the info Pete. If I had to guess, the announcement will only concern the purchase and demolition and will not reveal the design plans for the new tower.


I think it would be unwise, and bad PR, for a company to announce purchase and demolition without also revealing their plan to replace the demolished structure with something special.  I think this is a highly unlikely scenario.

----------


## kevinpate

> It would be best to have a rendering at the point of announcing the demolishion of the Stage Center, if only to quell some of the preservationists who will be up in arms about it.



The time for being up in arms is long past. To get all pithy and preachy now would be beyond futile.  Those who want the structure saved, and this at one time included me, have had years to act.

It's not like SC flooded out a month ago and someone jumped fast to raze it rather than examine how to save it.  SC has (admittedly somewhat sadly) been a dead dormant and neglected carcass for many years.  We just weren't kind enough to bury it in a more timely manner.

----------


## s00nr1

> It would be best to have a rendering at the point of announcing the demolishion of the Stage Center, if only to quell some of the preservationists who will be up in arms about it.


I completely agree....just trying to keep my hopes in check before the actual announcement considering what we've all witnessed in this thread during the mystery tower process.  :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

> Let me clarify my previous post:  I am hearing from more than one source that an announcement regarding the Stage Center site and proposed tower will likely happen next week.
> 
> Probably not Monday; more likely the second half of the week.


Could you be more specific? As in, the exact day and time of day -- I don't want to be caught off guard, out doing some silly real world activity and miss this. I need to plan my life around this announcement, you know.

Also need to make sure that I have plenty of Kleenex tissues handy in preparation for when the tears of joy start flowing...

 :Wink:

----------


## CaptDave

Interesting.....

11:39
Comment From Guest  
Within the next year, how many towers do you envision being under construction? Stage Center site? Preftakes block? Other?
11:40
Steve Lackmeyer: Next year? Probably none. But the years after? Up to three or more.

----------


## catch22

> Interesting.....
> 
> 11:39
> Comment From Guest  
> Within the next year, how many towers do you envision being under construction? Stage Center site? Preftakes block? Other?
> 11:40
> Steve Lackmeyer: Next year? Probably none. But the years after? Up to three or more.


I predict the thread that the Stage Center tower will be in will break 5,000 replies before construction even starts in 2015.

----------


## Zack232

Pete, do you know what company is behind the Stage Center site? I'm not necessarily asking you to tell me, but I'm just curious.

----------


## Praedura

> Pete, do you know what company is behind the Stage Center site? I'm not necessarily asking you to tell me, but I'm just curious.


LOL. Nice try.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Steve also said that even after an announcement that people will go right into the next "mystery tower" rumors. This thread isn't going anywhere any time soon.

----------


## David Pollard

> Could you be more specific? As in, the exact day and time of day -- I don't want to be caught off guard, out doing some silly real world activity and miss this. I need to plan my life around this announcement, you know.
> 
> Also need to make sure that I have plenty of Kleenex tissues handy in preparation for when the tears of joy start flowing...


   This thread is getting very interesting. Kinda weird, and a little depraved, but very interesting

----------


## lasomeday

> Steve also said that even after an announcement that people will go right into the next "mystery tower" rumors. This thread isn't going anywhere any time soon.


Yeah, that to me, says its not OGE/Centerpoint that will be building there.  I think that we will hear something from them in August about their plans for the MLP.  It is in their timeline for the MLP.....  They will say if it will be in OKC or Houston... then if its here a tower announcement I hope.  

Then we will have to wait until after September to hear about more news of the Devon MLP...  That could result in a tower... I don't think this year, but if successful, which all of them have been... maybe an announcement in early 2015.

----------


## Bellaboo

Another guest on the chat said that their Devon friends were saying they'd heard ConocoPhillips was the Mystery Tower ...?

We've passed that rumor around before.

----------


## G.Walker

> Interesting.....
> 
> 11:39
> Comment From Guest  
> Within the next year, how many towers do you envision being under construction? Stage Center site? Preftakes block? Other?
> 11:40
> Steve Lackmeyer: Next year? Probably none. But the years after? Up to three or more.


I don't think Steve really knows when construction will start on Stage Center tower, just pure speculation on his part probably. I could see them starting Summer of 2014, but Devon Tower did take over a year to start construction after it was announced, so who knows, we will all know more very soon.

----------


## Patrick

Wow! I'm surprised all of the speculation on this still! Pete Delaney will be making an announcement before the end of the year but right now they're working on the contract for the SC site and trying to work out a contract for the land to the south. They hope to start construction end of 2014 or beginning of 2015. All of the speculation about it being an outside company relocating a HQ here is wishful thinking.

----------


## BoulderSooner

i don't think this is the oge site

----------


## Patrick

> i don't think this is the oge site


Okay, talk to Pete Delaney and get back to me.

----------


## Zack232

> Wow! I'm surprised all of the speculation on this still! Pete Delaney will be making an announcement before the end of the year but right now they're working on the contract for the SC site and trying to work out a contract for the land to the south. They hope to start construction end of 2014 or beginning of 2015. All of the speculation about it being an outside company relocating a HQ here is wishful thinking.


Steve and Pete have both said they believe an announcement is coming within a week or two, so "making an announcement before the end of the year" is a little obvious.

----------


## Patrick

Steve also said that back in March!! At that time there were still 3 bids on the property.

----------


## Praedura

> Wow! I'm surprised all of the speculation on this still! Pete Delaney will be making an announcement before the end of the year but right now they're working on the contract for the SC site and trying to work out a contract for the land to the south. They hope to start construction end of 2014 or beginning of 2015. All of the speculation about it being an outside company relocating a HQ here is wishful thinking.


You shouldn't be surprised. We don't have your inside info, and in lieu of anything tangible, speculation is all we have. It's also the very purpose of this thread!

Keep in mind that Pete believes (via his sources) that the Stage Center site will be developed by a local company that is consolidating. And OGE is the best guess on that. Most of us here go along with that. A lot of the other wild speculation is just people having fun (or they just haven't been paying attention).

----------


## G.Walker

Patrick,  :Banned2:

----------


## GoThunder

> Patrick,


Your banned what?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Steve also said that back in March!! At that time there were still 3 bids on the property.


So are you saying there will not be an announcement latter half of next week?  I'll take Pete's sources any day over yours.

----------


## Patrick

> So are you saying there will not be an announcement latter half of next week?  I'll take Pete's sources any day over yours.


I'm not here to prove a point. I'm just saying what I know. I'm a local physician and am part of the chamber...I hang out with these guys all the time. That's all I'm saying. 

For those that may not remember I also announced here that Aubrey bought naming rights to the arena about a year before it was announced, but no one believed it. 

Anyways, proceed on.

----------


## bchris02

Patrick, the out of state company will likely be the Centerpoint MLP if it does end up in OKC.

----------


## CaptDave

You know, this might turn out better than any of us ever dreamed possible.......

----------


## G.Walker

Pardon Patrick, his medical practice has consumed a lot of his time, he is still 6 months behind, time to catch up Patrick.

----------


## Praedura

Patrick, I'm extremely glad that someone with your knowledge is participating on this board. I'm very interested in anything you have to say. And I hope that you're not put off by some of the humorous jabs we sometimes fling around.

But I also hope that you're wrong as heck about the SC announcement being months away.

----------


## okcpulse

> I'm not here to prove a point. I'm just saying what I know. I'm a local physician and am part of the chamber...I hang out with these guys all the time. That's all I'm saying. 
> 
> For those that may not remember I also announced here that Aubrey bought naming rights to the arena about a year before it was announced, but no one believed it. 
> 
> Anyways, proceed on.


Patrick!  Long time no see!  Welcome back and it's good to see you again.

----------


## Pete

This was posted today on Steve's chat:




> Comment From Guest  
> Steve, the Bank of America drive in on Robert S Kerr between Hudson and Walker officially closes today. Is this the next site a tower could pop up?


Can anyone confirm this closure?

This whole block is prime for redevelopment:

----------


## Bellaboo

> Okay, talk to Pete Delaney and get back to me.


I'm not so sure of OG&E either. Steve's chat last week said to imagine what it'd look like if 2 towers were built a few blocks North of the SC site.....

----------


## G.Walker

> This was posted today on Steve's chat:
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone confirm this closure?
> 
> This whole block is prime for redevelopment:


Steve did mention in the past, that this site could be a possibility for a new tower, wow, too much going on right now to keep up with!

----------


## Pete

That building on the corner of McGee & Hudson is a windowless storage facility for B of A, and directly west of there is a Goodyear tire place.

Then you have the B of A drive-thru (highlighted) and a surface parking lot to the east of that.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Wow! I'm surprised all of the speculation on this still! Pete Delaney will be making an announcement before the end of the year but right now they're working on the contract for the SC site and trying to work out a contract for the land to the south. They hope to start construction end of 2014 or beginning of 2015. All of the speculation about it being an outside company relocating a HQ here is wishful thinking.


Why would they still be negotiating the contract but have completed soil sample testing and having the tenants kicked out?

----------


## Patrick

> You shouldn't be surprised. We don't have your inside info, and in lieu of anything tangible, speculation is all we have. It's also the very purpose of this thread!
> 
> Keep in mind that Pete believes (via his sources) that the Stage Center site will be developed by a local company that is consolidating. And OGE is the best guess on that. Most of us here go along with that. A lot of the other wild speculation is just people having fun (or they just haven't been paying attention).


I understand.  And I understand that most of the threads here are speculative.  I was one of the first 10 people on this website when it started in 2004, and one of the original 3 moderators, so I understand how it works.  Specualtion has always been part of the fun of this site.

----------


## modernism

I could have swore I read a thread from Patrick that stated he was in Pete's Men's Bible Study Group, but Pete lives in California, just curious? lol....

----------


## Patrick

> Pardon Patrick, his medical practice has consumed a lot of his time, he is still 6 months behind, time to catch up Patrick.


I've been reading. I've been on this site since 2004, but have posted off and on.  At times, people do get burned out on message boards, so of course my posting hasn't been consistent.  Even my user account isn't the original.  As you can probably see, I started the roll call thread back in 2004, but that account is no longer active, as I left for a time.

----------


## bradh

Pete....that BofA closing has been planned for a couple of months.  I used to go there to make my deposits for work, and it is indeed closing.

----------


## BrettM2

> Pardon Patrick, his medical practice has consumed a lot of his time, he is still 6 months behind, time to catch up Patrick.


Probably best to not be rude with someone who actually has sources.  His information, whether it fits what we know or believe, should be just as welcomed as others.  We can debate the merits and whether we find it likely, but no need to demean him.

----------


## Patrick

Let me just sum up some things here.  I will admit that the last time I talked with Pete Delaney was in May.  At that time he had a good bid on the SC site.  But, as with all developments, OGE was also looking at other sites. Someone mentioned the site just north of the OKC MOA.  Delaney has also looked at that site, as it is just west of their existing building.   The thing to consider is that when corporations consider moving to new buildings and consider building new buildings, they look at a lot of options. And their are many proposals put forth. And sometimes plans are cancelled depending on economic conditions or feasibility studies or environmental studies or what not.  I can say for sure that OGE is looking at building a new tower and that they're pretty far a long in the process. I know for a fact that they put forth a bid for the SC site and were narrowed down to the last 3 bidders.   I also know that American Fidelity considered many options, and were strongly looking at downtown, but instead opted to go with an offer that was a little too good to be true.  I know MidFirst has explored their options.  

So, I don't think we can say anything for certain. That's just the way the business world is.  Just look at Steve. He told us back in March that an announcement would occur in the next few days.  Well, here we are now at July, and still no announcement.  Many factors have to come together before an announcement is made. And the announcement is usually made after most of the i's have been dotted and t's have been crossed.

----------


## modernism

> Probably best to not be rude with someone who actually has sources.  His information, whether it fits what we know or believe, should be just as welcomed as others.  We can debate the merits and whether we find it likely, but no need to demean him.


I don't know, this dude comes on here saying all this stuff, after being gone for a while, I for one don't think he is a good source. And he is downplaying Steve as a source, so it goes both ways.

----------


## Patrick

> I could have swore I read a thread from Patrick that stated he was in Pete's Men's Bible Study Group, but Pete lives in California, just curious? lol....


Pete Delaney. Sorry, I edited it because I didn't want toi divulge too much private information about him or me.

----------


## BrettM2

> I don't know, this dude comes on here saying all this stuff, after being gone for a while, I for one don't think he is a good source. And he is downplaying Steve as a source, so it goes both ways.


I didn't say take his information at face value, just that posters need to lose the rudeness.  Seems be infilitrating these boards more and more lately.

----------


## modernism

So Pete Delaney is in your Men's Bible Study Group, but you haven't spoke to him since May? Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa, keep digging that hole....

----------


## G.Walker

> So Pete Delaney is in your Men's Bible Study Group, but you haven't spoke to him since May? Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa, keep digging that hole....


 :Love Bed:

----------


## Patrick

> Patrick, I'm extremely glad that someone with your knowledge is participating on this board. I'm very interested in anything you have to say. And I hope that you're not put off by some of the humorous jabs we sometimes fling around.
> 
> But I also hope that you're wrong as heck about the SC announcement being months away.


I hope I'm wrong too.  I'm just a little more pessimistic on stuff like this than some others.

----------


## Patrick

> Why would they still be negotiating the contract but have completed soil sample testing and having the tenants kicked out?


A contract is not completed until the property is officially sold.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> A contract is not completed until the property is officially sold.


when the contract is signed the property is sold ...   it can be completed well before

----------


## lasomeday

> A contract is not completed until the property is officially sold.


I'm still hopeful it's Midfirst bank building the tower on the stage center site, or some unknown nonoil and gas company....

----------


## Patrick

> So Pete Delaney is in your Men's Bible Study Group, but you haven't spoke to him since May? Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa, keep digging that hole....


I feel like this is just becoming an attack per se and is straying away from the topic at hand, so I'll just end it with this, so we can get back on topic.  He and I were involved in a men's Bible study group at Crossings, but that study ended at the end of May, as it did not continue into the summer session.  It will be restarting in the fall.

----------


## Patrick

> when the contract is signed the property is sold ...   it can be completed well before


That's what I meant. Geesh. By negotiating the contract, I meant details still need to be worked out, like surveying, assessing, soil tests, etc.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I hope I'm wrong too.  I'm just a little more pessimistic on stuff like this than some others.


I agree that it is better to be pessimistic than optimistic cause people who are way optimistic get crushed when the bubble bursts :-)

----------


## Zack232

*Patrick I hate you and* Just kidding. Haha I thought I'd join in.

----------


## Patrick

> I don't know, this dude comes on here saying all this stuff, after being gone for a while, I for one don't think he is a good source. And he is downplaying Steve as a source, so it goes both ways.


Steve and I have known each other for many years, back to the days when this forum started with a small crew of members on the OKC City Hall website, then known as the "Talkback forum" and run by city webmaster Mark Gilmore, later "The oklahoman MAPS forum", and pror to this site, Brian Bates' Oklahomasown forum message board.  I have nothing against Steve. Steve and I have a lot of the same sources, even at this point.  I think he's just a little more optomistic than I am.  And I have been gone from posting for awhile, mostly because I've had no need to come here, as I'm now in business myself and regularly work with our local business leaders.  But, I still have a lot of friends here, so occasionally I'll return to read and post from time to time.

----------


## Patrick

Just to provide some credentials, here's a NewsOk article link from when I was a moderator on this site.  I got together with then owner of this site, Steve, and Mick, and we organized an OKC Talk tour of the Colcord Hotel before it opened. 

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...oklahoman.html

Back to topic.

----------


## Patrick

Anyways, to get us back to topic (and to leave this thread on good terms), here are some of the proposals I know are in the works for a tower downtown: 

1. OGE Corp (Enogex, OGE, CenterPoint, etc.) - complete within the next 2

2. Midfirst (still a possibility)

3. Residential tower - a good possibility in the next 5 years

4. Continental - a good possibility in the next 5 years. 

5. Devon - completion in 10 years

6. Sandridge - not happening

----------


## BoulderSooner

devon will almost 100% build a new tower in the next 10 years

----------


## hoya

Clearly there are pieces in motion.  Patrick has a very good source with OG&E and his basing his predictions off of what he has been told by that source.  This does not mean that Pete Delaney has solid information on what companies other than OG&E are doing.  We don't have enough information to accurately gauge Mr. Delaney's sources re: outside companies.

We could have an announcement next week about a Midfirst Bank tower on the Stage Center site.  Or an Enogex/OG&E MLP on the Stage Center site.  Apparently there have been 3 companies bidding on that piece of land, and my guess is that all 3 want to build something tall there.  Exactly what will take place is unknown.  Even if Patrick had rock-solid information at the end of May, we don't know that that information is still accurate.

----------


## Patrick

> Clearly there are pieces in motion.  Patrick has a very good source with OG&E and his basing his predictions off of what he has been told by that source.  This does not mean that Pete Delaney has solid information on what companies other than OG&E are doing.  We don't have enough information to accurately gauge Mr. Delaney's sources re: outside companies.
> 
> We could have an announcement next week about a Midfirst Bank tower on the Stage Center site.  Or an Enogex/OG&E MLP on the Stage Center site.  Apparently there have been 3 companies bidding on that piece of land, and my guess is that all 3 want to build something tall there.  Exactly what will take place is unknown.  Even if Patrick had rock-solid information at the end of May, we don't know that that information is still accurate.


Exactly.

----------


## ChaseDweller

And in any event, personal attacks are unwarranted and childish.  We're all excited and just trying to bring and piece together whatever information we have.

Patrick, thanks for your insight.

----------


## Just the facts

> Anyways, to get us back to topic (and to leave this thread on good terms), here are some of the proposals I know are in the works for a tower downtown: 
> 
> 1. OGE Corp (Enogex, OGE, CenterPoint, etc.) - complete within the next 2
> 
> 2. Midfirst (still a possibility)
> 
> 3. Residential tower - a good possibility in the next 5 years
> 
> 4. Continental - a good possibility in the next 5 years. 
> ...


I'm not sure it takes any inside knowledge to compile that list.  I live a 1000 miles away and don't personally know a single person involved in any capacity of City government, or the OKC Chamber, or even a scout leader of a local boy scout troop - and even I could come up with that list.  :Smile:

----------


## jedicurt

> Clearly there are pieces in motion.  Patrick has a very good source with OG&E and his basing his predictions off of what he has been told by that source.  This does not mean that Pete Delaney has solid information on what companies other than OG&E are doing.  We don't have enough information to accurately gauge Mr. Delaney's sources re: outside companies.
> 
> We could have an announcement next week about a Midfirst Bank tower on the Stage Center site.  Or an Enogex/OG&E MLP on the Stage Center site.  Apparently there have been 3 companies bidding on that piece of land, and my guess is that all 3 want to build something tall there.  Exactly what will take place is unknown.  Even if Patrick had rock-solid information at the end of May, we don't know that that information is still accurate.


i'm just really curious who the other 2 bidders have been for that site. because i would like for all 3 to build somewhere downtown...

----------


## Rover

Patrick, I understand you are a Psychiatrist.  That should come in handy on this board.  Lot's of potential clients here.

----------


## Pete

I was told by a good source -- the one that said the Stage Center site will be sold to a local company -- that it is NOT MidFirst.  Also, another source who knew all about MF taking a run at the OPUBCO properties long before it was public does not believe they are the company, either.

When I asked my source specifically if the SC site was being sold to OG&E, he said "I can't say".

It's somewhat telling that in the past he has completely shot down ideas like MidFirst, so not coming outright and saying "No, it's got OG&E" furthers my belief it IS them.

If the information is right that this announcement is about a local company consolidating to the SC site, then it almost has to be OG&E.

Doesn't mean there aren't other companies that are also looking or that Engox/CenterPoint won't be part of the mix.  However, I do strongly believe that the E/C merger will be housed in a separate building from whatever OG&E decides to do.

I also believe Devon will eventually move their own MLP spin-off out of their tower, as there are lots of reasons to create some degree of separation between these entities.


I still think it will be OG&E announcing late next week they are acquiring the Stage Center site and building a tower of approximately 40 stories.  I think it's too soon to make an announcement about Enogex/CenterPoint but I DO believe they will be located in OKC.  I also believe Devon will eventually build on the Preftakes block but in the more immediate term One N Hudson will be converted to housing (or a hotel) and perhaps some other smaller projects.


BTW, I kind of hope I'm wrong about OG&E and that we get a surprise company stepping up.  But I don't think that's going to happen.

----------


## Pete

> i'm just really curious who the other 2 bidders have been for that site. because i would like for all 3 to build somewhere downtown...


I believe Continental was initially interested.

And I don't believe there was any sort of bid...  More of an expression of possible interest.

I'm also not sure there were any others that got very far in the process.  You can imagine they received inquiries from all types.

----------


## jedicurt

> I was told by a good source -- the one that said the Stage Center site will be sold to a local company -- that it is NOT MidFirst.  Also, another source who knew all about MF taking a run at the OPUBCO properties long before it was public does not believe they are the company, either.


My source for all things MF also is very adamant that they do not think the Stage Center will be them.   I spoke with them for a bit yesterday, and they are still saying that they are not aware of any immediate plans to consolidate offices after the bid on OPUBCO and the Chesapeake money river drying up.

----------


## s.hoff

Just throwing out wild ideas since that is allowed here. How possible is it that OG&E and Centerpoint/Enogex to build twin towers on the Stage Center site? People have said in the past that there is plenty of room for two towers on SC. Now THAT would be iconic! Again, I know nothing and am not suggesting that this is even a possibility. Just think it would be really cool!

----------


## Patrick

Yeah, I think Pete is correct. From what I've heard, the new tower would house CenterPoint and Enogex (with Enogex giving up space that they lease at Leadership Square), and OG&E would remain in their current building. The SC site would include one 35-40 floor tower and a parking garage, similar to what you have a tthe Devon complex, possibly with a conference center.

----------


## Spartan

> You don't think they're beyond the bidding stage in the planning process?


From my experience that stage can go right up until groundbreaking on the facility. In this case, the enormity of the physical plant may weather down some of the late risk, but until a deal is announced I don't know if Oklahoma has made an ED deal or not.

----------


## Spartan

> This was posted today on Steve's chat:
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone confirm this closure?
> 
> This whole block is prime for redevelopment:


I have a weird vibe that this is where OG+E wants to be. It's near where they are now.

----------


## Pete

^

Yes, that would make sense but I have the feeling the Stage Center site became too good to pass up.

----------


## Spartan

> Yeah, I think Pete is correct. From what I've heard, the new tower would house CenterPoint and Enogex (with Enogex giving up space that they lease at Leadership Square), and OG&E would remain in their current building. The SC site would include one 35-40 floor tower and a parking garage, similar to what you have a tthe Devon complex, possibly with a conference center.


No, OG+E is not staying in their old tower. I have always refrained from justifying myself on here to any degree, and while I'm away doing planning work in Ohio these days, I'll mention for your benefit that I was one of the earliest informants to both Pete and Steve about OG+E. This corporation does not have a future in its existing office facility.

----------


## Zack232

> Yeah, I think Pete is correct. From what I've heard, the new tower would house CenterPoint and Enogex (with Enogex giving up space that they lease at Leadership Square), and OG&E would remain in their current building. The SC site would include one 35-40 floor tower and a parking garage, similar to what you have a tthe Devon complex, possibly with a conference center.


That's not what Pete said. Pete thinks the new tower will be solely for OG&E, and there will be a separate tower for the MLP.

----------


## Patrick

> That's not what Pete said. Pete thinks the new tower will be solely for OG&E, and there will be a separate tower for the MLP.


Sorry, I read it wrong.  I guess we differ on that.  From everything I've heard the new tower proposed by OGE Corp would house the Enogex/CenterPoint partnership (with the CenterPoint HQ remaining in Houston).  But, I'm less certain on that. Regardless, I think our consensus is that some subsidiary of the OGE Energy Corp (whether that be the Enogex/CenterPoint partnership or OG&E) will be involved with this project.

----------


## Patrick

> ^
> 
> Yes, that would make sense but I have the feeling the Stage Center site became too good to pass up.


I agree. I know OGE Energy Corp looked at the north OKC MOA site, but I'm guessing that the SC site, for it's location, was too good of an opportunity.

----------


## Spartan

> Sorry, I read it wrong.  I guess we differ on that.  From everything I've heard the new tower proposed by OGE Corp would house the Enogex/CenterPoint partnership (with the CenterPoint HQ remaining in Houston).  But, I'm less certain on that. Regardless, I think our consensus is that some subsidiary of the OGE Energy Corp (whether that be the Enogex/CenterPoint partnership or OG&E) will be involved with this project.


Can someone explain the difference between a merger and a master limited partnership and how that would influence whether they retain existing HQ facilities or form new facilities.

My first inclination is to deadpan that these corps are merging and won't be both in OKC and Houston...

----------


## Pete

OG&E only owns 28% of the new Enogex/CenterPoint entity and that will be further diluted with the initial public offering.

I believe the main issue is keeping an arms-length relationship with this new company since there will be so many other investors.

This will not be an OG&E company in any way.  OG&E is merely an investor, and not even the largest one.



Also, I believe there are regulatory issues regarding the degree of involvement by the company that spun off the assets.  This pertains more to Devon and Chesapeake but I still found it interesting:




> Many energy companies have been drawn to MLPs as a way to create tax efficiencies. By placing pipelines, gathering and storage assets into an MLP, the sponsoring firms help avoid taxes and receive back generous distribution payments. Individual investors benefit from the security type’s high tax-advantaged yields. This powerful combo has been a win-win for both issuing firms as well as retail investors. And given the benefits, new MLP spinoffs and issuances have surged.

----------


## kbsooner

> Just throwing out wild ideas since that is allowed here. How possible is it that OG&E and Centerpoint/Enogex to build twin towers on the Stage Center site? People have said in the past that there is plenty of room for two towers on SC. Now THAT would be iconic! Again, I know nothing and am not suggesting that this is even a possibility. Just think it would be really cool!


Hey, that kinda looks like Devon on the right!

----------


## Patrick

> No, OG+E is not staying in their old tower. I have always refrained from justifying myself on here to any degree, and while I'm away doing planning work in Ohio these days, I'll mention for your benefit that I was one of the earliest informants to both Pete and Steve about OG+E. This corporation does not have a future in its existing office facility.


The utility OG&E is growing but not like an energy corp. They don't need more space. Meanwhile, other OGE corp subsidiaries, like Enogex and the Enogex-CenterPoint MLP are growing operations. All 3 divisions of OGE Corp could move into a new tower, but its looking like they're going to keep the utility in their existing building and move the energy company and MLP into the new tower. Would make more sense though for all 3 to move to a new tower and I hope this occurs.

----------


## Patrick

> Can someone explain the difference between a merger and a master limited partnership and how that would influence whether they retain existing HQ facilities or form new facilities.
> 
> My first inclination is to deadpan that these corps are merging and won't be both in OKC and Houston...


CenterPoint and OGE corp (subsidiaries being OG&E utility and Enogex) will remain independent companies but they'll put resources like pipelines into a partnership for tax benefits. The partnership is a separate entity run by both corporations that has its own set of shareholders, but functions like a "partnership" for tax benefits. 

CenterPoint will remain in Houston and retain its 47 story HQ there. OGE energy Corp will remain in OKC. It looks like the MLP may take up space in a new tower on the SC site, either joining with Enogex or OG&E utility or both.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Pete Delaney. Sorry, I edited it because I didn't want toi divulge too much private information about him or me.


That's ironic because just two posts earlier you detailed PD's Tower strategy.  I wonder what PD would think if he knew you were telling everyone on a message board that is read by a lot of well connected people many of his company's moves.  Especially since he's been able to keep them secret for so long.

That is why I'm a little leery of your sources as others are.  That and that I know you are way off on what you originally said about MidFirst

----------


## Patrick

> That's ironic because just two posts earlier you detailed PD's Tower strategy.  I wonder what PD would think if he knew you telling everyone on a message board that is read by a lot of well connected people many of his company's moves.  Especially since he's been able to keep them secret for so long.
> 
> That is why I'm a little leery of your sources as others are.  That and that I know you are way off on what you originally said about MidFirst


Look, if you don't want to believe what I say, then that's fine....go about your business. But in the meantime you've hijacked this thread and turned it into a "let's attack Patrick's credibility and sources" thread. This is exactly why local professionals like myself often times avoid message and forum boards. Forget I even shared any information here. I hang out with these guys and play golf with them on a regular basis. But I'll just keep the information to myself.

----------


## TheSocialGadfly

To what does the acronym "MLP" refer?

----------


## Patrick

> To what does the acronym "MLP" refer?


Master Limited Partnership

----------


## Spartan

> The utility OG&E is growing but not like an energy corp. They don't need more space. Meanwhile, other OGE corp subsidiaries, like Enogex and the Enogex-CenterPoint MLP are growing operations. All 3 divisions of OGE Corp could move into a new tower, but its looking like they're going to keep the utility in their existing building and move the energy company and MLP into the new tower. Would make more sense though for all 3 to move to a new tower and I hope this occurs.


The main point that's missing here is that OG+E's current facilities are vast, substandard, and scattered.

----------


## hoya

Master Limited Partnership

----------


## TheSocialGadfly

> Master Limited Partnership





> Master Limited Partnership


Thank you.

----------


## Just the facts

One or more people are going to look ridiculous in about 5 days.... or not.

----------


## Spartan

> One or more people are going to look ridiculous in about 5 days.... or not.


This is the most bankable thing that has been said in a long time in this thread lol

----------


## jn1780

> One or more people are going to look ridiculous in about 5 days.... or not.


Friendships with "sources" will end. lol

----------


## BoulderSooner

Pretty sure endogex will cease to exist once the mlp forms

----------


## Spartan

> Pretty sure endogex will cease to exist once the mlp forms


That's what I'm thinking

----------


## okcRE

I have a friend who works at Enogex and i have been asking about news/rumor on the new tower and he said no.  This past wed he texted me that he's hearing rumor in the office about a tower.

----------


## mugofbeer

> Look, if you don't want to believe what I say, then that's fine....go about your business. But in the meantime you've hijacked this thread and turned it into a "let's attack Patrick's credibility and sources" thread. This is exactly why local professionals like myself often times avoid message and forum boards. Forget I even shared any information here. I hang out with these guys and play golf with them on a regular basis. But I'll just keep the information to myself.


Just ignore him if he bothers you.  Got to have a little skin to be on here because there are some who will turn rude and even call names the moment you post an opinion.  You just have to accept that some people are like that.  The rest of us enjoy the chat for what it is.

----------


## Spartan

Yeah, Patrick don't think we (including myself) don't appreciate your educated conjecture. We definitely welcome as much informed perspective on here as possible, and your perspective is definitely informed. Some people just don't think you have Pete Delaney on speed dial.

Myself, I certainly don't have any inside executive-level sources for these things anymore. Sometimes I wish I still knew the inside scoop on everything, but I've come to realize that just increases the fun that I get from watching OKC grow by leaps and bounds. Especially when you consider that the OKC I grew up with was one where we accepted the frozen-in-time skyline as an absolute we would always be living with, while all the cities around us including Tulsa and Little Rock were building new scrapers.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Look, if you don't want to believe what I say, then that's fine....go about your business. But in the meantime you've hijacked this thread and turned it into a "let's attack Patrick's credibility and sources" thread. This is exactly why local professionals like myself often times avoid message and forum boards. Forget I even shared any information here. I hang out with these guys and play golf with them on a regular basis. But I'll just keep the information to myself.


This is a message board and you have every right to share your "information", just as I have the right to dispute the credibility of it.  I have no idea if your OG&E sources are good, but I do know that your information about MidFirst building a tower downtown is incorrect, and you, yourself backpedalled from it when you were called on it on page 201 of this thread.




> I thought this was shot down, also, CHK is downsizing and not interested in MidFirst HQ location anymore, as someone else has confirmed.





> probably right about the buyer for their property.


Pete also disputed your information:



> We have a really good source inside of MidFirst who alerted me about them taking a run at the OPUBCO properties, which is how I knew about American Fidelity actually outbidding them, long before it broke in the press.
> 
> And that source told me that MidFirst is not moving now because 1) Chesapeake is no longer in a position to buy their existing properties and 2) Chesapeake may actually sell them the Grand Park buildings.


If you don't like being called on the carpet, then this is not the place for you. I feel like it is my duty when I see something I know to be wrong to point it out to the board. And, although I don't speak for the rest of the board, since I know your information about MF was wrong, I'm going to take the rest of your information with a grain of salt.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Think about what all has changed even in five years. Will 2013 be 2008 again?

Doug Dawgz Blog: Devon Tower

----------


## Bellaboo

Guess this is the week ?   I'll take Thursday as 'the' Day....

----------


## Praedura

> Guess this is the week ?   I'll take Thursday as 'the' Day....


How 'bout Wednesday?  :Smile: 

Really, if it's any time this week, I'll be thrilled. The sooner the better.

----------


## Pete

I'm hearing the announcement will be made Friday.

Press release will go out that day, interviews with the media are being scheduled.

----------


## hoya

Awesome!  Okay, now we have to predict what it will look like.

----------


## adaniel

Bold prediction: I expect half this board to complain about the design.

----------


## Praedura

> i'm hearing the announcement will be made friday.
> 
> Press release will go out that day, interviews with the media are being scheduled.


wow!!!

----------


## Praedura

YEEHAW!!!!!

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> I'm hearing the announcement will be made Friday.
> 
> Press release will go out that day, interviews with the media are being scheduled.


Do you know if renderings will be shown Friday if Friday is indeed the day?

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I'm hearing the announcement will be made Friday.
> 
> Press release will go out that day, interviews with the media are being scheduled.


Very exciting!

----------


## Teo9969

> Do you know if renderings will be shown Friday if Friday is indeed the day?


Not to answer for Pete, but as others have said in this thread, it would not be a good idea for a company to announce that they're buying a piece of iconic architecture and razing it without providing a rendering of what will be replacing the iconic architecture. I doubt we'd know until Wednesday at the earliest if there will be full plans, but this seems obvious.

Everyone knows a tower is going up, we just don't "know" who the company is.

----------


## Praedura

> Do you know if renderings will be shown Friday if Friday is indeed the day?


Surely they would. That would be mighty strange to announce a new tower and then not show a single rendering.

----------


## warreng88

> Awesome!  Okay, now we have to predict what it will look like.


Obviously there will be glass, but I don't think there will be as much as the Devon tower. I predict a much taller, less glass version of Building 1 (The modern one under construction) on the CHK campus.

----------


## Pete

Not sure about renderings but would be surprised if that wasn't part of what was in the press release -- at least a conceptual drawing.

----------


## bchris02

How about something like this?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Surely they would. That would be mighty strange to announce a new tower and then not show a single rendering.


Devon kinda did it when they announced they would build a new tower, but at that point didn't specify a location or have any real estate locked up.

----------


## Bellaboo

> How do we get a copy of that PR?


Steve....

----------


## warreng88

Now we need to start the height, floors, square feet guessing game. I will start: 37 floors (split the difference between 35 and 40 prediction), 550 feet tall, 550,000 square feet.

----------


## Pete

I'm sure as soon as the press release hits the wire we'll get wind of it.

I've heard all the way along the tower will be about 40 stories and have retail/restaurants on the first one or two floors.  I don't think anything has changed.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Should be an interesting live chat this Friday... If the press release it before 10am.

----------


## okc_bel_air

I have a friend who is in the office furniture business and has said that his company has not seen the plans but was given the opportunity to bid early for the project based on requirments submitted by mystery companies design and development staff.  His company is large in Oklahoma and did/does work for the Devon tower. He could not tell me who because of confidentiality reasons. He said is estimates put the tower at 40 to 40+ floors based on what they require in reference to what his company installed in the Devon tower.

----------


## Praedura

> Devon kinda did it when they announced they would build a new tower, but at that point didn't specify a location or have any real estate locked up.


I think this is a different scenario, though. Since the site is already known and involves a potentially controversial demolition, they can't be as vague. I would think that some basic info about height, number of floors, parking, etc. would have to be included along with at least some basic sketches of the proposed tower.

----------


## Pete

I hope there will be at least conceptual drawings but wouldn't be shocked if that didn't happen.

This has all come together pretty quickly and they might not be that far along in the process.  The Devon parallel is a good one...  Made a big announcement long before the big, public reveal of the tower model.  Before that, we didn't see a thing.

This is a little different situation because of the angst over Stage Center, though.  If I was them, I'd at least have a pretty picture to point to when trying to get past the demolition issue.

----------


## jccouger

I predict if it is OGE and with the positive press and public opinion they receive, they will then have "urgent" days throughout the rest of the summer for smart hour users knowing that complaints will be minimum due to the excitement of the new tower.

----------


## Praedura

> How about something like this?


NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

(I hope you're kidding)  :Smile:

----------


## bchris02

How tall does everybody think? Will it be taller than the BOK tower in Tulsa?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> How tall does everybody think? Will it be taller than the BOK tower in Tulsa?


Hopefully, haha.

----------


## warreng88

> How tall does everybody think? Will it be taller than the BOK tower in Tulsa?


I think it will be the second tallest in OKC, fourth largest in the state behind Devon, BOK (667') and Cityplex (648'). The next tallest is First Place Tower in Tulsa at 516'.

----------


## adaniel

> Hopefully, haha.


I know its childish, but I wouldn't mind shutting those folks up the turnpike.

----------


## Pete

It's it's 40 floors or more, I would expect it to be taller than anything in the state other than Devon.

Devon averaged 17 feet per floor and if you take 40 x 17 that yields 680 feet, which would be slightly taller than BOK in Tulsa.

As way of reference, Chase / Cotter Tower is 500 feet.

----------


## hoya

I think it will definitely be taller than the BOK tower.  If it's 40+ floors, modern ceiling heights virtually require it.

----------


## Praedura

700 ft. And not an inch less.  :Smile:

----------


## Bellaboo

> How tall does everybody think? Will it be taller than the BOK tower in Tulsa?


There was rumor that it'd be over 700, but not as tall as Devon.

----------


## warreng88

Are we sure it is going on the Stage Center site? What about Preftakes block? Announcement in July and construction starting in April once everyone is out seems like a possibiity. And which company does everyone think it will be? Enogex? OGE?

----------


## Bellaboo

I'll choose 43 floors at 17 per, = 730 ft.

----------


## jccouger

42, with the bottom 2 being for retail/dining & 40 for office use. 38 floors will be 17 ft, the top 2 and bottom 2 will be 25 ft = 746 ft

----------


## Pete

> So, here's a question for everyone. If both sides of California are being bought, what are the chances that this company may build on the south half and restore and perhaps improve the Stage Center?


My understanding is that the announcement Friday will be to build a tower on the Stage Center site and that the south half of the property will not be included at this time.

----------


## mcca7596

> So, here's a question for everyone. If both sides of California are being bought, what are the chances that this company may build on the south half and restore and perhaps improve the Stage Center?


Ain't nobody got time for that.

----------


## bchris02

> NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
> 
> (I hope you're kidding)


Well it would be an iconic building that would make our skyline stand out.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Not to answer for Pete, but as others have said in this thread, it would not be a good idea for a company to announce that they're buying a piece of iconic architecture and razing it without providing a rendering of what will be replacing the iconic architecture. I doubt we'd know until Wednesday at the earliest if there will be full plans, but this seems obvious.
> 
> Everyone knows a tower is going up, we just don't "know" who the company is.


Yes, I'm aware of what others think. I just wanted to know if Pete knew. Thanks.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Well it would be an iconic building that would make our skyline stand out.


How about a 700 foot tall Indian.

----------


## HangryHippo

> My understanding is that the announcement Friday will be to build a tower on the Stage Center site and that the south half of the property will not be included at this time.


Hmm, perhaps saving it for Enogex's MLP announcement in August?

----------


## Rover

I think Devon has set the standard.  I think this one should have style, but doesn't need to try to out-do Devon.  One of the problems with Dubai is that every new tower tries to out-do the last one announced.  It leads to some pretty gaudy architecture.  We don't need glitz, but class.  Here is where I will absolutely agree with JTF and Spartan...the first two floors that abut the sidewalk are most important on this project.  The tower itself should look good from afar, but I am anxious to see the street level designs.  If it is indeed retail and restaurants, it can be a game changer. Imagine sidewalk dining on the east side overlooking the park and out of the harsh afternoon/evening light.  In fact, I think this building will have an extreme effect on all of the film exchange area and we will see some residential development go west of the school.  

This should be fun.

----------


## Praedura

It's like Christmas in July. Wonder what's in the package?



(a shiny new tower, perhaps?)

 :Smile:

----------


## Teo9969

I just hope it has some Black incorporated. We could use some more dark tones in the skyline.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I just hope it has some Black incorporated. We could use some more dark tones in the skyline.


As long as it isn't tan or brown... too much of that out there already.

----------


## Praedura

> As long as it isn't tan or brown... too much of that out there already.


Chase Tower is essentially black. I'm kind of hoping for more of a blue/silver coloration. Darker than Oklahoma Tower, though.

----------


## Praedura

Feels like I'm doing a new car purchase:

Let's see... 40 floors, 700 feet. Yes, that's good, First floor retail and excellent interaction with the street... fine. 

Black? Well... do you have that in a blue/silver tone? Great. I'll take one please. How much is that? 300 million? Fine. Just put that on my card.

 :Wink:

----------


## G.Walker

I am more interested in founding out who the architect is, rather than height. Knowing what architect will tell you what type of quality and design you will be gettting. Pickard Chilton is ok, but a lot of his towers look the same. I would like to see something from HKS, Inc., Gromatzky Dupree & Associates, or Boka Powell.

----------


## Bellaboo

If this is OG&E, It could have the crown lit up orange.

----------


## catch22

Catch22 Enterprise LLC. 42 floors. 704ft.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Calling Architect 2010!
Virtual massing model, please.

----------


## G.Walker

I doubt they will have model. I hope they have some nice computer generated renderings, not any drawings, lol.

----------


## Teo9969

My Guess:

OGE
40 stories
726 feet tall (Announced on 7/26, HA!)
Approx. $485,000,000

----------


## Thundercitizen

42 stories
693 ft
Primary finish - Glass
Secondary/accent finishes - concrete/stone
Top floor: Mummers Theater replica restaurant/playhouse

----------


## Rover

Wouldn't it be great if they could pay homage to the SC structure by incorporating some of the design elements into the street level interaction...exposed walkways, concrete boxes, colors, etc.  Wonder if there is a tasteful and fun way to do that.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Wouldn't it be great if they could pay homage to the SC structure by incorporating some of the design elements into the street level interaction...exposed walkways, concrete boxes, colors, etc.  Wonder if there is a tasteful and fun way to do that.


i hope not ..

----------


## Bellaboo

*




 Originally Posted by Patrick


Wow! I'm surprised all of the speculation on this still! Pete Delaney will be making an announcement before the end of the year but right now they're working on the contract for the SC site and trying to work out a contract for the land to the south. They hope to start construction end of 2014 or beginning of 2015. All of the speculation about it being an outside company relocating a HQ here is wishful thinking


*


> .


We're going to see how deep in bed you are with Pete Delaney.......If this is OG&E or Enogex/CNP announcing Friday, we'll know this statement was all smoke.....If it's someone else, it's even greater news and OG&E will be the next Mystery Tower.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> i am more interested in founding out who the architect is, rather than height. Knowing what architect will tell you what type of quality and design you will be gettting. Pickard chilton is ok, but a lot of his towers look the same. I would like to see something from hks, inc., gromatzky dupree & associates, or boka powell.


o.m.a.

----------


## Pete

Devon has certainly set a high standard.

I doubt we'll see another $750 million complex any time soon but using a national architect and doing things right at every turn -- including considering existing parkers at the garage they purchased, taking care of the Colcord, etc. -- not only sets an expectation but a road map of how to create a win/win situation for everyone involved.

----------


## Rover

SOM Chicago would be a bid deal.  They are one of the leading, if not the leading hi-rise designer firms in the world.

----------


## buylow

centerpoint/enogex, without a doubt.

----------


## LuccaBrasi

I would imagine (or hope) Pete has had many lessons learned conversations with Larry and would follow their lead in creating a win-win project.

As far as architects go, I hope whoever it is has a well respected portfolio of high-rise design. I'm assuming that's a given, but you never know. 

OG&E has recently being using Burns & McDonnell on most all their work including their transmission line work, space planning and interior architecture, which is the main reason B&M opened an office in Robinson Renaissance and has been hiring ever since.  They are a large AE, or "EA", that does a lot of government and oil & gas work and a lot of engineering lead work. Architecture is typically a by-product of their engineering. They would not being designing a tower, but it might be interesting to see if OG&E relies on them as part of the design process in possibly helping them select a design firm and being their eyes and ears or project manager.

----------


## architect5311

> Calling Architect 2010!
> Virtual massing model, please.




Not 2010 but here's some quick eye candy showing a scaled down version of BOA Tower NY....

----------


## Thundercitizen

5311, sir.

Thanks!

----------


## warreng88

Whoever it is, I hope there is a good street interaction with Hudson, Reno and Sheridan. Imagine the Myriad Gardens in ten years with Devon to the north, possibly two towers to the west, convention center to the south, hopefully a plan in place for a residential tower on the Cox Convention Center site and they newly renovated Century Center to the northeast...

----------


## soonerguru

> Well it would be an iconic building that would make our skyline stand out.


Yes, it would stand out like your screwy uncle at Thanksgiving.

----------


## Patrick

There will likely be a parking garage towards the south of the OGE tower.  Hoping I'm worng and an announcement is made this week.

----------


## CaptDave

I like this building placement because it preserves California. I sincerely hope whatever is built on the Stage Center site does not permanently block the California right of way. Of course this stems from my advocacy of using California as a boulevard from Classen to Myriad Gardens. It would be quite a view to have the Crystal Bridge framed by two high rises in 5 years.




> Not 2010 but here's some quick eye candy showing a scaled down version of BOA Tower NY....

----------


## Pete

Yes, they will have to provide parking somehow, as everything around there and really throughout downtown is maxed out.

There was talk of putting a city-owned garage on the block at the NW corner of Reno & Walker, but I don't think that is part of this deal.


I know we all know this, but a tall building on this site is going to do so much for our skyline.  Extends it, makes it much taller and provides another new building so it isn't just Devon and everything from the 70's and before.  And also will hopefully fill in the gap between Devon's extreme height and everything else.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yes, they will have to provide parking somehow, as everything around there and really throughout downtown is maxed out.
> 
> There was talk of putting a city-owned garage on the block at the NW corner of Reno & Walker, but I don't think that is part of this deal.
> 
> 
> I know we all know this, but a tall building on this site is going to do so much for our skyline.*  Extends it,* makes it much taller and provides another new building so it isn't just Devon and everything from the 70's and before.  And also will hopefully fill in the gap between Devon's extreme height and everything else.


It extends it both East/West and North/South.

----------


## Rover

For those not familiar with OKC, the drive in on I-40 west will be impressive...at least compared to what it was just a couple of years ago.

----------


## Praedura

Yeah, in basketball they always talk about adding an outside shooter so you can "spread the floor".

Well, a tower there would really spread the floor.... er, I mean spread the skyline.

----------


## Thundercitizen

The old rising Cingular cell reception signal bars, seen as one approached from the west, loses some reception.

----------


## OKCSteel

A tower and parking garage can easily fit on the Stage Center property.

----------


## Praedura

Instead of 



```
                 \v/
                 | |
                 | |
                 | |        _
  _    _         | |   _   | |   _     _
_| |__| |________| |__| |__| |__| |___| |_
```

We get:



```
                 \v/
            ^    | |
           | |   | |
           | |   | |        _
  _    _   | |   | |   _   | |   _     _
_| |__| |__| |___| |__| |__| |__| |___| |_
```


(dazzled by my ascii art?  :Smile:  -- ok, I'm no Architect5311)

----------


## bchris02

> For those not familiar with OKC, the drive in on I-40 west will be impressive...at least compared to what it was just a couple of years ago.


I really think the most impressive view currently is coming in from the east at the I-40/I-35 junction. That will be even better with the new tower. It should also improve the view from the west, which currently is a bit too dominated by the Devon tower and really needs another building or two to balance it.

----------


## LuccaBrasi

Think about the message this will send nationally in terms of future business development and potential relocations both small and big. It sends another layer of confidence about OKC from the business savvy to the average family driving through on I-40 or attending a softball tournament. The "cool factor" and branding messaging is endless. The thought of potentially two towers going up at the same time blows my mind. Maybe it could turn into a contest much like First National and City Place once had back in the 30's as to who could top out first!

It also makes me think about the importance of the next mayoral race and how the overall momentum of public private collaboration must be continued and not lost.

----------


## Rover

Often times organizations have more trouble handling success than they do with creating success.  I think this is a critical time in our city.  There are lots of people who want to lead what they view as successful organizations for all the wrong reasons, because of power and prestige it represents and not what they can do for the organization.  It takes real servants to do it when it is at the bottom and requires lots of thankless hard work, is second guessed, and there is no guarantee of success.  We have been fortunate.

----------


## Praedura

> ....I know we all know this, but a tall building on this site is going to do so much for our skyline.  Extends it, makes it much taller *and provides another new building so it isn't just Devon and everything from the 70's and before.*  And also will hopefully fill in the gap between Devon's extreme height and everything else.


Definitely due for another round of build-up. Our development is all bunched up over time into little boom periods:

..20's..early 30's.......................late 60's/early 70's.....early 80's...........now

Those long gaps of 'no activity' were killer. Let's make up for lost time and get going!

----------


## soonerguru

I heard from a mystery man at the corporation in question that this project is being super-fast-tracked for a March 2014 completion date!


j/k: thought I would provide some levity.

----------


## jn1780

> I heard from a mystery man at the corporation in question that this project is being super-fast-tracked for a March 2014 completion date!
> 
> 
> j/k: thought I would provide some levity.


That would mean it is a Chinese corporation. They can build a tower that fast. lol

----------


## jedicurt

> I heard from a mystery man at the corporation in question that this project is being super-fast-tracked for a March 2014 completion date!
> 
> 
> j/k: thought I would provide some levity.


lol.  maybe super-fast-tracked for a March 2014 start date.  unless of course, like jn1780 said, they are a Chinese corporation

----------


## zookeeper

I have been really sick and haven't posted since the 3rd of July, but I've checked in a few times and as I'm feeling better, things are looking better! This is exciting!

----------


## Spartan

Sinopec???

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Bring on the cranes.

----------


## Praedura

> Bring on the cranes...


Or this?



 :Wink:

----------


## Dustin

Oh wow.  It's exciting to log on here and see this thread jumped 4 pages!!!

BRING ON THE CRANES!

----------


## OU Adonis

> Or this?


Oklahoma river is in flood stage there......

----------


## Praedura

> Oklahoma river is in flood stage there......


Yeah, well... you know... with all the rain we've had lately... *ahem*

----------


## Praedura

Ok, I thought I'd take another stab with my mad graphics editing skillz...  :Evilsmile: 

I grabbed the Duke Energy Center from Charlotte for a potential tower, taken from this pic here:
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/367/img5268tc.jpg

That building is actually too similar to the Devon Tower, which likely won't be the case with our new tower, but let's overlook that.

Then I placed it into one of Cooper Ross's awesome nighttime aerials. Here's the result:



Ok, the effect isn't quite right. But still... something to look at.  :Smile:

----------


## BigD Misey

This little guy has my vote:
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...OKC/OKC147.jpg



Remember these? Of all of them i thought this was the sharpest one.

----------


## ljbab728

Very nice, praedura.  It gives a great impression of what a new building will look like in that location.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I like it praedura, but you gotta make it taller man!!!!!!!!!! and add 3-7 more towers while you're at it  :Wink:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> This little guy has my vote:
> http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...OKC/OKC147.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Remember these? Of all of them i thought this was the sharpest one.


They could use a little work but most of them would be cool to see!

----------


## stlokc

I hope it is shorter than that. I really want it to be about half-way between the height of Chase and Devon. And then I want the next one to bridge the differences further.

----------


## Praedura

> I like it praedura, but you gotta make it taller man!!!!!!!!!! and *add 3-7 more towers* while you're at it


Man, you are so greedy! (but hey, I understand... so am I) 
 :Smile:

----------


## pickles

> I hope it is shorter than that. I really want it to be about half-way between the height of Chase and Devon. And then I want the next one to bridge the differences further.


I think we'll see something that's approximately 100 feet shorter than the duke energy center.

----------


## Praedura

> I hope it is shorter than that. I really want it to be about half-way between the height of Chase and Devon. And then I want the next one to bridge the differences further.


Hmm... well, I want it to bridge the gap as well. Although I'd like it closer to DT height than Chase. About three-fourths of the way, rather than half. But that's just me.

----------


## TheSocialGadfly

I'm not trying to stir up another "OKC vs Tulsa" frenzy on OKCTalk, but I sincerely wonder how Tulsa residents are going to react to this kind of news.  If anything, I hope that witnessing this kind of momentum inspires the citizens of Tulsa to work towards what OKC has implemented.  This upcoming announcement is a big deal, especially given that Devon eclipsed the BOK only about two years ago.  Even if this development incites a little negativity from some, I'm all for it if it means that Tulsa residents can get it together.  A little envy and rivalry can be productive sometimes.  I'd really like to see Tulsa flourish as well.  

Anyway, back on topic.  I'm just wondering aloud (metaphorically speaking) about what kind of comments we can expect to see in NewsOK and Tulsa World next weekend.

----------


## architect5311



----------


## bchris02

> I'm not trying to stir up another "OKC vs Tulsa" frenzy on OKCTalk, but I sincerely wonder how Tulsa residents are going to react to this kind of news.  If anything, I hope that witnessing this kind of momentum inspires the citizens of Tulsa to work towards what OKC has implemented.  This upcoming announcement is a big deal, especially given that Devon eclipsed the BOK only about two years ago.  Even if this development incites a little negativity from some, I'm all for it if it means that Tulsa residents can get it together.  A little envy and rivalry can be productive sometimes.  I'd really like to see Tulsa flourish as well.  
> 
> Anyway, back on topic.  I'm just wondering aloud (metaphorically speaking) about what kind of comments we can expect to see in NewsOK and Tulsa World next weekend.


I was going to say something about this earlier.  I wonder how long after the story breaks somebody will slam OKC and say it should be built in Tulsa.

As for Tulsa flourishing, I would say today they are flourishing very well.  OKC may be getting the big economic developments but Tulsa has some advantages that OKC would kill for.  I think there are things OKC can learn from Tulsa as well as things Tulsa can learn from OKC.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I'm not trying to stir up another "OKC vs Tulsa" frenzy on OKCTalk, but I sincerely wonder how Tulsa residents are going to react to this kind of news.  If anything, I hope that witnessing this kind of momentum inspires the citizens of Tulsa to work towards what OKC has implemented.  This upcoming announcement is a big deal, especially given that Devon eclipsed the BOK only about two years ago.  Even if this development incites a little negativity from some, I'm all for it if it means that Tulsa residents can get it together.  A little envy and rivalry can be productive sometimes.  I'd really like to see Tulsa flourish as well.  
> 
> Anyway, back on topic.  I'm just wondering aloud (metaphorically speaking) about what kind of comments we can expect to see in NewsOK and Tulsa World next weekend.


I'm not trying to say that OKC is better than Tulsa, but OKC is better than Tulsa. j/k. Tulsa is a wonderful city for what it is and has one of the most impressive skylines of any city it's size, imo. I really think the days of Tulsa getting the better retail are over and Tulsa's ability to say we have better shopping, bar and entertainment districts, are numbered(VERY NUMBERED)

----------


## bradh

If you're talking "killing for" arts and entertainment that Tulsa has over OKC, I'll glady take booming economic development over that any day.

----------


## bchris02

> I'm not trying to say that OKC is better than Tulsa, but OKC is better than Tulsa. j/k. Tulsa is a wonderful city for what it is and has one of the most impressive skylines of any city it's size, imo. I really think the days of Tulsa getting the better retail are over and Tulsa's ability to say we have better shopping, bar and entertainment districts, are numbered(VERY NUMBERED)


I hope you are right.  I envy the Blue Dome, Brady, and Brookside areas of Tulsa.  I wish OKC had areas with a similar vibe.  Midtown is still pretty underwhelming, though there is amazing potential there.  The Plaza is really the closest we currently have yet its a fraction of the size of Tulsa's districts.

I like where Auto Alley is going, but everything closing up at 9 or 10PM is sure not very 'big city.'

----------


## bchris02

> If you're talking "killing for" arts and entertainment that Tulsa has over OKC, I'll glady take booming economic development over that any day.


The booming economic development _should_ bring more of the arts and entertainment type attractions to OKC.  Both pieces of the puzzle are necessary for a well-balanced city.

----------


## adaniel

> I'm not trying to stir up another "OKC vs Tulsa" frenzy on OKCTalk, but I sincerely wonder how Tulsa residents are going to react to this kind of news.  If anything, I hope that witnessing this kind of momentum inspires the citizens of Tulsa to work towards what OKC has implemented.  This upcoming announcement is a big deal, especially given that Devon eclipsed the BOK only about two years ago.  Even if this development incites a little negativity from some, I'm all for it if it means that Tulsa residents can get it together.  A little envy and rivalry can be productive sometimes.  I'd really like to see Tulsa flourish as well.  
> 
> Anyway, back on topic.  I'm just wondering aloud (metaphorically speaking) about what kind of comments we can expect to see in NewsOK and Tulsa World next weekend.


They are going to chant the same BS they always do. "But we have hills and trees and Cains, and who wants to live in OKSh**ty, and they have the state capitol and hog all the money blah blah blah." 

I would hope, though, that the smart people use it as a kick in the pants to do more. Just today there was an article about how sales tax has dwindled to the point they cannot even maintain their streets, and the tax base continues to lose out to the suburbs. I don't want to say they are desperate, but something big needs to happen. 

I really like Tulsa and wish them the best, they have great potential. But their citizenry and leaders are going to have to stop believing their poo doesn't stink and start making moves.

----------


## kbsooner

> 


Are you hating on the Peake?  whats up with the BOK center transplant?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I hope you are right.  I envy the Blue Dome, Brady, and Brookside areas of Tulsa.  I wish OKC had areas with a similar vibe.  Midtown is still pretty underwhelming, though there is amazing potential there.  The Plaza is really the closest we currently have yet its a fraction of the size of Tulsa's districts.
> 
> I like where Auto Alley is going, but everything closing up at 9 or 10PM is sure not very 'big city.'


Yeah, I'm really hoping all these districts come together and once that happens, that will be awesome and should be able to beat anything Tulsa has. Film Row and Farmers Market are going to be good rising districts too and what is exciting about C2S, is with the right public input and involvement, we can define this area for years to come.

This is one of the rare places me and JTF agree on is the new park needs to be more connected and integrated with the city! Instead of building the city around it, we can build the city with it and make it more connected with everything. C2S is such a large area, it seems like it could have a nice big bar district, urban housing and living on a huge scale, and a new cool entertainment district along the river.

Anyways, C2S gets me really excited thinking about what it can become, almost as excited as a new tower  :Wink: . This is truly a new part of our city we can make and define. Hopefully it turns out a great place to live, visit and show off!

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I hope you are right.  I envy the Blue Dome, Brady, and Brookside areas of Tulsa.  I wish OKC had areas with a similar vibe.  Midtown is still pretty underwhelming, though there is amazing potential there.  The Plaza is really the closest we currently have yet its a fraction of the size of Tulsa's districts.
> 
> I like where Auto Alley is going, but everything closing up at 9 or 10PM is sure not very 'big city.'


Western is by far the most similar district we have to brookside and or cherry street, especially if we can get the street scape improvements going.

----------


## Just the facts

Anyone else notice how 'thin' the urban fabric is getting in these renderings.  I prefer the high density of the existing core.  Hopefully, the Preftakes block will provide some middle ground.

----------


## bchris02

> Yeah, I'm really hoping all these districts come together and once that happens, that will be awesome and should be able to beat anything Tulsa has. Film Row and Farmers Market are going to be good rising districts too and what is exciting about C2S, is with the right public input and involvement, we can define this area for years to come.
> 
> This is one of the rare places me and JTF agree on is the new park needs to be more connected and integrated with the city so instead of building the city around it, we can build the city with it and make it more connected with everything. C2S is such a large area, it seems like it could have a nice big bar district, urban housing and living on a huge scale, and a new cool entertainment district along the river.


I think SoSA is also key.  That entire section of Midtown is still boarded up and abandoned.  It will be great when there is continuous gentrified urban fabric from Midtown, through SoSA, down to Film Row, through the CBD, to Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Auto Alley, and then finally 23rd St.  All of that engulfing Heritage Hills and Mesta Park.  How many years do you think we are from that?

----------


## bradh

> The booming economic development _should_ bring more of the arts and entertainment type attractions to OKC.  Both pieces of the puzzle are necessary for a well-balanced city.


So why didn't you move to Tulsa from NC instead of here  :Wink: 

In all seriousness, I agree, but I certainly like where we are headed and what it could all bring.  I guess I just need minimal arts and entertainment options in my life.  I'm more of a sports guy and OKC Phil is plenty enough for me.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I think SoSA is also key.  That entire section of Midtown is still boarded up and abandoned.  It will be great when there is continuous gentrified urban fabric from Midtown, through SoSA, down to Film Row, through the CBD, to Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Auto Alley, and then finally 23rd St.  All of that engulfing Heritage Hills and Mesta Park.  How many years do you think we are from that?


That would not be a question for me lol, if my life depended on it, I would guess 10-15 years before it all is fully connected. I think DD and Bricktown is going to be the most exciting area for awhile and then the other districts will slowly come together. In what order or fashion, I have no clue  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CaptDave

> Anyone else notice how 'thin' the urban fabric is getting in these renderings.  I prefer the high density of the existing core.  Hopefully, the Preftakes block will provide some middle ground.


Yep. Definitely need something significant to fill the gaps between Stage Center and Devon, Devon and Oklahoma Tower. Preftakes and north of MoA might do it nicely.

----------


## OKCNDN

> Are you hating on the Peake?  whats up with the BOK center transplant?


Even with renovations to Chesapeake Energy Arena, BOK is a better arena, capacity not withstanding.

----------


## bradh

BOK is more appeasing exterior and nicer concourses, but once you are in your seat and watching the game I found the scale shifted back towards the Peake

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Yep. Definitely need something significant to fill the gaps between Stage Center and Devon, Devon and Oklahoma Tower. Preftakes and north of MoA might do it nicely.


Gaps won't get filled when every new skyscraper announcement has a parking garage being built right next to it...

----------


## bchris02

> Gaps won't get filled when every new skyscraper announcement has a parking garage being built right next to it...


That is the typical way of skyscraper development in sunbelt cities.  OKC's skyline is actually much denser than most cities its size in this region of the country with rather minimal parking creating gaps.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Even with renovations to Chesapeake Energy Arena, BOK is a better arena, capacity not withstanding.


Maybe on the outside, but, other than the lobby, I can't think of any way in which the interior of BOK is superior to the renovated interior of CHK.

----------


## zookeeper

> BOK is more appeasing exterior and nicer concourses, but once you are in your seat and watching the game I found the scale shifted back towards the Peake


Are the seats at BOK on top of each other like at our arena? I've never been in such a cramped arena. I always feel uncomfortable.

----------


## bradh

> Are the seats at BOK on top of each other like at our arena? I've never been in such a cramped arena. I always feel uncomfortable.


Honestly I felt it was worse at BOK

----------


## soonerguru

> I think SoSA is also key.  That entire section of Midtown is still boarded up and abandoned.  It will be great when there is continuous gentrified urban fabric from Midtown, through SoSA, down to Film Row, through the CBD, to Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Auto Alley, and then finally 23rd St.  All of that engulfing Heritage Hills and Mesta Park.  How many years do you think we are from that?


Good question, but things have happened much faster in the last five than few here would have predicted.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Even with renovations to Chesapeake Energy Arena, BOK is a better arena, capacity not withstanding.


Absolutely WRONG.......   the BOK does not compare in any such way other than the skin to the 'Peake. I've been in both recently......The 'Peake is NBA standards, the BOK isn't... You obviously have not been down Founders Row inside the Peake...

----------


## Bellaboo

> Are the seats at BOK on top of each other like at our arena? I've never been in such a cramped arena. I always feel uncomfortable.


Stay out of Loud City and you'll be okay.

----------


## okc_bel_air

Back to topic.   Any new news today?  Has invites been sent out to the media yet for a press conference?  If so, who did the invites come from?

----------


## Pete

I don't think we'll hear anything more until Friday.

If the interviews have been scheduled, I'm sure it was with the caveat that the news not be leaked.

----------


## catch22

> I don't think we'll hear anything more until Friday.
> 
> If the interviews have been scheduled, I'm sure it was with the caveat that the news not be leaked.


Read that wrong at first and was disappointed. Thought you said you wouldn't think we'd hear about it on Friday.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I think SoSA is also key.  That entire section of Midtown is still boarded up and abandoned.  It will be great when there is continuous gentrified urban fabric from Midtown, through SoSA, down to Film Row, through the CBD, to Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Auto Alley, and then finally 23rd St.  All of that engulfing Heritage Hills and Mesta Park.  How many years do you think we are from that?


the cottage district will be almost all single family homes .. all be it mostly multi story

----------


## Bellaboo

It's ticking.......2 1/2 days......

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> It's ticking.......2 1/2 days......


Shut up. My anxiety just kicked in & now I'm beyond anxious!!!

----------


## Spartan

> So why didn't you move to Tulsa from NC instead of here 
> 
> In all seriousness, I agree, but I certainly like where we are headed and what it could all bring.  I guess I just need minimal arts and entertainment options in my life.  I'm more of a sports guy and OKC Phil is plenty enough for me.


The OKC Phil is very good, very affordable.

----------


## Patrick

Well, so I saw one of our city leaders at the gym today (who will remain nameless, but his sister was in residency with me), and we got to talking about plans for the SC site. He agrees with Pete and said to expect an announcement either at the end of this week or early next week. Educated guess would be Friday, since Pete has good sources about that date. He said it will be the SC site, but he wouldn't tell me who the company was. I would only guess that its OGE Energy Corp at this point. Anyways, he said plans had progressed faster than originally thought. I hope he's right!

----------


## Pete

I'm trying to confirm that everything is still set for Friday.

----------


## ThomPaine

> I hope you are right.  I envy the Blue Dome, *Brady*, and Brookside areas of Tulsa.  I wish OKC had areas with a similar vibe.  Midtown is still pretty underwhelming, though there is amazing potential there.  The Plaza is really the closest we currently have yet its a fraction of the size of Tulsa's districts.
> 
> I like where Auto Alley is going, but everything closing up at 9 or 10PM is sure not very 'big city.'


I love where we're headed.  I don't know where, C2S maybe, but I would love to see something like Guthrie Green in the Brady District in Tulsa.

Thank you all for your speculation and thoughts, this is why I first started reading OKC Talk...

----------


## Roger S

So will this Mystery Tower be the new home for the Scooby Doo gang? They could park their Mystery Machine right out front They could unmask those crotchety old local businessmen who would have gotten away with it all if it hadn't been for those pesky kids.

----------


## bradh

> The OKC Phil is very good, very affordable.


You're not lying.  I'm definitely not an artsy type of guy, as I said, but I do love some good instrumental music, which is exactly what the symphony provides.

----------


## jn1780

> So will this Mystery Tower be the new home for the Scooby Doo gang? They could park their Mystery Machine right out front They could unmask those crotchety old local businessmen who would have gotten away with it all if it hadn't been for those pesky kids.


That's how it has remained a mystery. The name of the company has been in front of us the whole time: *Mystery Incorporated*

The tower will be shaped as a giant Scooby snack.

----------


## bchris02

> That's how it has remained a mystery. The name of the company has been in front of us the whole time: *Mystery Incorporated*
> 
> The tower will be shaped as a giant Scooby snack.


Or how about a Waffle House world headquarters shaped like a bottle of syrup!

----------


## ljbab728

> Anyways, he said plans had progressed *faster than originally thought.* I hope he's right!


A lot of people here might disagree with that, Patrick.  LOL

----------


## Praedura

Ok, I decided to jump in on the guessing game for the new tower figures. Since I've been playing around with image editing, I decided to make a graphic (could have just typed it in, but what the hay)...



Naturally, I can't really justify the numbers. I'm just speculating (Pete told us it was our job!)

----------


## bchris02

> Ok, I decided to jump in on the guessing game for the new tower figures. Since I've been playing around with image editing, I decided to make a graphic (could have just typed it in, but what the hay)...
> 
> 
> 
> Naturally, I can't really justify the numbers. I'm just speculating (Pete told us it was our job!)


So is that it?  No windows except on the first floor?

----------


## Pete

I hope this doesn't turn out like the AT&T announcement where we get something pretty great but it's not quite as tall or cool as some had wished for.

I also hope the announcement doesn't get delayed past Friday otherwise there may be riots in the streets.   :Smile:

----------


## OKCisOK4me

If its the demise of the Stage Center...Im betting it won't be dismal.

----------


## hoya

> I hope this doesn't turn out like the AT&T announcement where we get something pretty great but it's not quite as tall or cool as some had wished for.
> 
> I also hope the announcement doesn't get delayed past Friday otherwise there may be riots in the streets.


Are you hearing something to temper your enthusiasm?

----------


## Pete

> Are you hearing something to temper your enthusiasm?


No, but the information about the size/height has always been a bit hazy and I haven't been able to find anyone who has seen renderings.

I had heard "almost as tall as Devon" and "about 40 stories" but that was a while ago and I'm not sure if anything has changed.

----------


## Patrick

I was told yesterday that it would be anywhere from 35-40 stories depending on the floor plate they choose.

----------


## Pete

Second source now confirming sale of the Stage Center site is set to close on Friday and press releases to be issued by seller (foundation) and new owner.

Until it closes nothing is certain, but at this point everything seems to be on track.

----------


## kevinpate

I get no vote, but if I did, I'd order up the 40 floor plate special.

With a side of parking garage over a dash of retail.

----------


## Praedura

> So is that it?  No windows except on the first floor?


Windows are over-rated?

Look man, it's a conceptual drawing. Concepts. It's like abstract. You just gotta dig it for what it stands for, you know? Not get all caught up in the realism thingy, you see?

Plus I got too lazy to put in a bunch of windows, so I stopped.
 :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

> I hope this doesn't turn out like the AT&T announcement where *we get something pretty great but it's not quite as tall or cool as some had wished for.*
> 
> I also hope the announcement doesn't get delayed past Friday otherwise there may be riots in the streets.


Hey, whatever size or style we get, it'll be a heckuva lot more tower than is on the site right now. So it's still goodness.

----------


## Praedura

This announcement is giving new meaning to the expression TGIF!
 :Cool:

----------


## Pete

I'm not so sure we are going to get renderings or much in the way of details in terms of the tower.

I hope that happens and it would certainly be in the buyer's best interest, but I have not been able to confirm that that is part of the Friday announcement.  Just that the property will be sold.

----------


## Just the facts

I am going to laugh if it ends up being a Children's Museum.

----------


## Pete

I'm 90% sure it's OG+E but I have to say, the lid has been kept very tight on all this.

Amazing in this day and age!

----------


## Praedura

Oh my, I hope we don't just get a short press release saying that the site has been sold to XYZ Corp. and nothing else. That would suck so bad.  :Frown: 

Even still, once the cat is out of the bag, details would have to follow in fairly short order.

----------


## Pete

One encouraging thing is that they are scheduling interviews with the media, so that will allow for more questions about their future plans if they aren't made obvious through the press release.

----------


## Praedura

Ok, I've been working on another photo mockup for the new tower. I started, once again, with a great Cooper Ross (IVM) pic, specifically this one:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...62114399_o.jpg

(I did crop off a little bit of the north side of that image to focus on the Stage Center area.)

For the tower I used a building from a photo of Hong Kong I had laying around. I have no idea what the name of it is. It was chosen NOT because it was an awesome looking building, but because it was about the right height (around 35 stories, it appears) and it had the right orientation to line up with the perspective of the OKC photo reasonably well.

Here's what I got:



It's not quite everything I was hoping to achieve, but it does provide another perspective on how a tower might look in that spot.

----------


## maestro6

Thanks for that perspective, Praedura. That's my favorite view of downtown, so I'm glad to see how things might shape up with a new tower.

----------


## BDP

> I am going to laugh if it ends up being a Children's Museum.


That'd be awesome, because that would most likely mean we'd get a children's museum AND some new towers.

----------


## Patrick

> Oh my, I hope we don't just get a short press release saying that the site has been sold to XYZ Corp. and nothing else. That would suck so bad. 
> 
> Even still, once the cat is out of the bag, details would have to follow in fairly short order.


My guess is that they will announce the sale of the property and the building of a new headquarters, but I bet actual architectural renderings are still in the works. Just my guess though.

----------


## BDP

> It's not quite everything I was hoping to achieve, but it does provide another perspective on how a tower might look in that spot.


I wonder if we could convince them to tear down the legacy and do it there instead. : )

----------


## Teo9969

If both seller and buyer are releasing press releases, that seems as good of an indication that a rendering/details will not be released Friday. It sounds to me like we're only going to be confirming all of our speculation: OGE, a tower more than 30 stories. Hopefully we at least find out the architect and price....then we can at least set our eyes on a target of relative quality to expect.

----------


## catch22

> If both seller and buyer are releasing press releases, that seems as good of an indication that a rendering/details will not be released Friday. It sounds to me like we're only going to be confirming all of our speculation: OGE, a tower more than 30 stories. Hopefully we at least find out the architect and price....then we can at least set our eyes on a target of relative quality to expect.


Even then, Devon announced a 37 story project. Later to unveil in a meeting the 50 story monster.

If we do not get renderings, any details on the project should be taken with a grain of salt.

----------


## Pete

I now have it under good authority that *the buyer is OG+E AND Enogex/CenterPoint*.


Trying to get more clarification but I believe this means they will be housed in the same tower, which increases the likelihood of it being of significant height.

Also trying to understand if this will be the HQ for Enogex/CenterPoint or just part of that new entity.


On the downside, the announcement may get shifted to Monday due to last minute issues.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I now have it under good authority that *the buyer is OG+E AND Enogex/CenterPoint*.
> 
> 
> Trying to get more clarification but I believe this means they will be housed in the same tower, which increases the likelihood of it being of significant height.
> 
> Also trying to understand if this will be the HQ for Enogex/CenterPoint or just part of that new entity.
> 
> 
> On the downside, the announcement may get shifted to Monday due to last minute issues.


interesting ...

----------


## warreng88

> Ok, I've been working on another photo mockup for the new tower. I started, once again, with a great Cooper Ross (IVM) pic, specifically this one:
> 
> https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...62114399_o.jpg
> 
> (I did crop off a little bit of the north side of that image to focus on the Stage Center area.)
> 
> For the tower I used a building from a photo of Hong Kong I had laying around. I have no idea what the name of it is. It was chosen NOT because it was an awesome looking building, but because it was about the right height (around 35 stories, it appears) and it had the right orientation to line up with the perspective of the OKC photo reasonably well.
> 
> Here's what I got:
> ...


It's amazing how much of a visual disconnect there will be from that angle between the new tower and the rest of downtown, but it won't look that way from other directions. The infill will be better if you were to throw another tower just south of that and another one on the Preftakes block. I would love to see a 20 story residential mid-rise go on the half square block north of the museum bound by RSK, Dean A McGee, Hudson and Walker.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> It's amazing how much of a visual disconnect there will be from that angle between the new tower and the rest of downtown, but it won't look that way from other directions. The infill will be better if you were to throw another tower just south of that and another one on the Preftakes block. I would love to see a 20 story residential mid-rise go on the half square block north of the museum bound by RSK, Dean A McGee, Hudson and Walker.


also if there is a 25-30 story hotel across from the peake

----------


## adaniel

> I now have it under good authority that *the buyer is OG+E AND Enogex/CenterPoint*.
> 
> 
> Trying to get more clarification but I believe this means they will be housed in the same tower, which increases the likelihood of it being of significant height.
> 
> Also trying to understand if this will be the HQ for Enogex/CenterPoint or just part of that new entity.
> 
> 
> On the downside, the announcement may get shifted to Monday due to last minute issues.


Not doubting your source, but the one thing that makes me think that it's not OGE is they just spent millions finishing out Leadership Square.

----------


## G.Walker

I would suspect that the press release will announce the sale, and plans for the site. I think they would give details, like size and scope, but no renderings. I think renderings will come at a later date...as long as they don't say we are going to "redevelop the site", lol.

----------


## SOONER8693

> Ok, I've been working on another photo mockup for the new tower. I started, once again, with a great Cooper Ross (IVM) pic, specifically this one:
> 
> https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...62114399_o.jpg
> 
> (I did crop off a little bit of the north side of that image to focus on the Stage Center area.)
> 
> For the tower I used a building from a photo of Hong Kong I had laying around. I have no idea what the name of it is. It was chosen NOT because it was an awesome looking building, but because it was about the right height (around 35 stories, it appears) and it had the right orientation to line up with the perspective of the OKC photo reasonably well.
> 
> Here's what I got:
> ...


That is awesome work. I wish I could do stuff like that. Thanks.

----------


## Pete

To summarize...

We've heard from two reliable sources that:
A deal has been struck to sell the Stage Center siteIt will close either this Friday 7/26 or next Monday 7/29A press release will be issued by the new owners after the closeInterviews are being scheduled with the mediaOG+E will be the buyer in conjunction with the new Enogex/CenterPoint entity

Less clear but likely that:
There will be a new tower built on that siteIt will be in the 30 to 40 floor rangeThere will be retail/restaurants on the first one or two floors

Educated projections:
A parking garage will be part of thisThis only involves the Stage Center site, not the property directly southAt least some of the new Enogex/CenterPoint entity will be located in OKC, but not necessarily all

Unclear at this point:
If this will be the Enogex/CenterPoint headquartersThe possibility of future expansion to surrounding propertiesIf renderings or building details will be revealed in the press release and/or interviews

----------


## Rover

> It's amazing how much of a visual disconnect there will be from that angle between the new tower and the rest of downtown, but it won't look that way from other directions. The infill will be better if you were to throw another tower just south of that and another one on the Preftakes block. I would love to see a 20 story residential mid-rise go on the half square block north of the museum bound by RSK, Dean A McGee, Hudson and Walker.


Add in the new parking garage by the Hightower building and the mass will help balance some.  Also, any mid-high rise development on the Preftakes block changes it a lot too.

----------


## s.hoff

> I now have it under good authority that *the buyer is OG+E AND Enogex/CenterPoint*.
> 
> 
> Trying to get more clarification but I believe this means they will be housed in the same tower, which increases the likelihood of it being of significant height.
> .


Darn. I was really hoping for twin towers.  :Smile:  Oh well, can't complain!

----------


## CaptDave

> On the downside, the announcement may get shifted to Monday due to last minute issues.


Dammit Pete! On the other hand, we wouldn't want it to interfere with Steve's Livechat.... :Cool:

----------


## G.Walker

> Not doubting your source, but the one thing that makes me think that it's not OGE is they just spent millions finishing out Leadership Square.


a couple million to renovate an office space to house employees for a few years is chump change to them...

----------


## Pete

> Not doubting your source, but the one thing that makes me think that it's not OGE is they just spent millions finishing out Leadership Square.


No matter what, they'll be in that space for several more years.

And yes, there was a building permit for that space just last year for $3.6 million.


But of course, this was all before the merger with CenterPoint.

----------


## HangryHippo

Is the buyer also getting the land to the south and not utilizing at this time, or did they decide to only buy the Stage Center site?

----------


## Praedura

> Darn. I was really hoping for twin towers.  Oh well, can't complain!


I was thinking the same thing!

----------


## Pete

> Is the buyer also getting the land to the south and not utilizing at this time, or did they decide to only buy the Stage Center site?


I believe the only property changing hands in this transaction will be the Stage Center site.

Could be possible there is an option for other properties but I don't think that will be part of this initial deal.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Same here. The fact that OG&E and Enogex and Centerpoint are buyers mean we just lost a projected tower?

----------


## HangryHippo

> Same here. The fact that OG&E and Enogex and Centerpoint are buyers mean we just lost a projected tower?


Looks that way.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I believe the only property changing hands in this transaction will be the Stage Center site.
> 
> Could be possible there is an option for other properties but I don't think that will be part of this initial deal.


Perhaps Continental could take that southern site when they decide to build.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Same here. The fact that OG&E and Enogex and Centerpoint are buyers mean we just lost a projected tower?


But if combined, it'll be a much taller tower at that..

----------


## Pete

> Same here. The fact that OG&E and Enogex and Centerpoint are buyers mean we just lost a projected tower?


Talk about the glass half empty!!   :Wink: 


Perhaps this is just the beginnings of a longer-term plan?

Also, it's fantastic news that at least part of the Enogex/CenterPoint entity will be in OKC.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Same here. The fact that OG&E and Enogex and Centerpoint are buyers mean we just lost a projected tower?


And potentially lost the enogex HQ to Houston. At least that seems more likely now.

----------


## warreng88

Or OG&E and is building on the Stage Center site and Enogex, Centerpoint will build a new tower on the site south of this in the near future...

----------


## Rover

I don't understand the negativity.

OGE is the managing partner, is it not?  I would prefer to read into this that the new venture is remaining in OKC near to its managing partner.

----------


## HangryHippo

> And potentially lost the enogex HQ to Houston. At least that seems more likely now.


Yep, looks like Houston wins.  Although, didn't Sid recently post a link saying that there's another conference call scheduled for August 1st for the new MLP?  We should find out for certain here soon.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yep, looks like Houston wins.  Although, didn't Sid recently post a link saying that there's another conference call scheduled for August 1st for the new MLP?  We should find out for certain here soon.


Having a hard time why anyone thinks Houston won ??? I've read or heard nothing that relates to that. For that matter, if Enogex and Centerpoint are involved in the sale, sounds like it'll be here..?

I read the CNP conference call and it says nothing about the MLP.

----------


## G.Walker

I think OG&E is just purchasing the site on behalf of the Enogex/Centerpoint MLP, and the Enogex/Centerpoint MLP will build tower on that site. OG&E will build tower behind office on N. Hudson.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Having a hard time why anyone thinks Houston won ??? I've seen or heard nothing that relates to that. For thqt matter, if Enogex and Centerpoint are involved in the sale, sounds like it'll be here..?
> 
> I read the CNP conference call and it says nothing about the MLP.


It's a prediction. Lighten up nancy.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Yep, looks like Houston wins.  Although, didn't Sid recently post a link saying that there's another conference call scheduled for August 1st for the new MLP?  We should find out for certain here soon.


i think his link was just the centerpoint earnings call ..

----------


## BoulderSooner

> I think OG&E is just purchasing the site on behalf of the Enogex/Centerpoint MLP, and the Enogex/Centerpoint MLP will build tower on that site. OG&E will build tower behind office on N. Hudson.


i think this could be correct

----------


## HangryHippo

> i think his link was just the centerpoint earnings call ..


My bad. I thought I saw something else for a call coming up in August but I was mistaken.

----------


## Bellaboo

> It's a prediction. Lighten up nancy.


Okay Debbie Downer....lol

----------


## HangryHippo

> Okay Debbie Downer....lol


Touch. Ha

----------


## wsucougz

Well this turned embarrassing quickly.

----------


## bchris02

So why is it people are thinking the MLP HQ is going to Houston? Is there any real info to back up that speculation?

----------


## Thundercitizen

All I wanted was two little 500-600 feet tall towers in lieu of one Devon tower killer.
Is that too much to ask?

 :Smile:

----------


## PhiAlpha

I have a friend over at enogex and speculation around the office is that the HQ will be in houston but that they will still have a very large presence in OKC. He said that he thought the only personnel shuffling would send accounting/finance people to houston and operations oriented people from houston to okc. He mentioned that to me a few weeks ago and I brushed it off, but if both entities will be housed in the same tower, that scenario seems a little more likely. Granted, this guy isn't that high up within the company and its all just "watercooler" speculation, but the rumor is out there none the less. The fact that centerpoint is the majority owner also lends some credibility to that, however wasn't there something that said they would have equal shares in the governance of the new entity?

Having said that, it still isn't a bad scenario. Always would prefer the HQ but nothing wrong with a major office. Look at Exxon, the HQ has been in Irving forever but their major offices are in houston(soon to be the woodlands) and ft worth. Kerr mcgee's HQ was here, but for a long time there major office was in Houston. Operationally the bulk of the mlp's pipeline infrastructure is centered around OK and north Texas so could be a similar scenario.

----------


## soonerguru

> I wonder if we could convince them to tear down the legacy and do it there instead. : )


This is very similar to what I was just thinking. Yikes that building is ugly.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> All I wanted was two little 500-600 feet tall towers in lieu of one Devon tower killer.
> Is that too much to ask?


Yes

----------


## Thundercitizen

> Yes


Dang it.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

I get a little queasy every time I hear "twin towers," so I'm perfectly fine with one big tower and a smaller companion tower.

----------


## dcsooner

> And potentially lost the enogex HQ to Houston. At least that seems more likely now.



I thought this may be the case all along.  Not standing by any longer with baited breath for  signficant announcement

----------


## dcsooner

> I have a friend over at enogex and speculation around the office is that the HQ will be in houston but that they will still have a very large presence in OKC. He said that he thought the only personnel shuffling would send accounting/finance people to houston and operations oriented people from houston to okc. He mentioned that to me a few weeks ago and I brushed it off, but if both entities will be housed in the same tower, that scenario seems a little more likely. Granted, this guy isn't that high up within the company and its all just "watercooler" speculation, but the rumor is out there none the less. The fact that centerpoint is the majority owner also lends some credibility to that, however wasn't there something that said they would have equal shares in the governance of the new entity?
> 
> Having said that, it still isn't a bad scenario. Always would prefer the HQ but nothing wrong with a major office. Look at Exxon, the HQ has been in Irving forever but their major offices are in houston(soon to be the woodlands) and ft worth. Kerr mcgee's HQ was here, but for a long time there major office was in Houston. Operationally the bulk of the mlp's pipeline infrastructure is centered around OK and north Texas so could be a similar scenario.


After all this speculation, it appears OKC once again will lose big to Houston. Not quite a major league player yet in the world of corporate relocations.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

I guess I don't understand all the speculation on Houston getting the MLP.  If OGE/Centerpoint/Enogex are all the buyers on this - why are we assuming this is for OGE and Enogex to share a building and not just the site for the MLP?  Those are the three players in the MLP.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> after all this speculation, it appears OKC once again will lose big to Houston. Not quite a major league player yet in the world of corporate relocations.


Again, if we don't get the hq we will be losing in title only. The mlp's presence would still be larger than enogex currently and we might get the larger of the two offices. Also, no guarantee yet that we won't get two towers out of this deal. I don't think anyone should jump off the cliff yet or anything.

----------


## bchris02

From what it sounds like we will get one tower and a significant presence of the MLP but not the HQ. That may not be the slam dunk many here had hoped for but it's still a pretty big development. Cities like Memphis, Louisville, Wichita, Little Rock, etc would kill for an announcement like this.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I thought this may be the case all along.  *Not standing by any longer with baited breath for  signficant announcement*




If it's a 40 floor major skyscraper would that count as significant ?

----------


## dcsooner

> I guess I don't understand all the speculation on Houston getting the MLP.  If OGE/Centerpoint/Enogex are all the buyers on this - why are we assuming this is for OGE and Enogex to share a building and not just the site for the MLP?  Those are the three players in the MLP.


My speculation is because of the speculation of this thread, to Steve not being worried going from near certainty to now nervous hope.

----------


## BrettM2

> [/B]
> 
> If it's a 40 floor major skyscraper would that count as major ?


Not when the opportunity to be dramatic presents itself.  You should know that after 2,200 posts.

----------


## jedicurt

> I think OG&E is just purchasing the site on behalf of the Enogex/Centerpoint MLP, and the Enogex/Centerpoint MLP will build tower on that site. OG&E will build tower behind office on N. Hudson.


This is what i am hoping is correct.

----------


## bchris02

Pretty much the rule when it comes to major economic development is the reality will almost always fall somewhere between the best and worst case scenario. Rarely will the total optimists or total pessimists get it right. This situation appears to be no different.

----------


## dankrutka

> My speculation is because of the speculation of this thread, to Steve not being worried going from near certainty to now nervous hope.


You don't miss a chance to add some negativity to the conversation do you?

----------


## jedicurt

> I have a friend over at enogex and speculation around the office is that the HQ will be in houston but that they will still have a very large presence in OKC. He said that he thought the only personnel shuffling would send accounting/finance people to houston and operations oriented people from houston to okc. He mentioned that to me a few weeks ago and I brushed it off, but if both entities will be housed in the same tower, that scenario seems a little more likely. Granted, this guy isn't that high up within the company and its all just "watercooler" speculation, but the rumor is out there none the less. The fact that centerpoint is the majority owner also lends some credibility to that, however wasn't there something that said they would have equal shares in the governance of the new entity?


That's actually kind of interesting, because i have a college friend who works at Centerpoint in Houston now, and he says the speculation around their office is that most of them will be moving to OKC. (which he is excited about because he is originally from Moore), so kind of interesting that both offices feel as though the other has won

----------


## Teo9969

> That's actually kind of interesting, because i have a college friend who works at Centerpoint in Houston now, and he says the speculation around their office is that most of them will be moving to OKC. (which he is excited about because he is originally from Moore), so kind of interesting that both offices feel as though the other has won


Bahahaha!!!

People are funny.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> That's actually kind of interesting, because i have a college friend who works at Centerpoint in Houston now, and he says the speculation around their office is that most of them will be moving to OKC. (which he is excited about because he is originally from Moore), so kind of interesting that both offices feel as though the other has won


Normal behavior for a workforce whilst an impending major announcement looms.  Uncertainty and fear abounds and speculation becomes a frame of reference for emotional transaction.

----------


## BrettM2

Here's my prediction:  On either Friday or Monday, we'll know who gets what and what goes where and when it will happen.  I'm going out on a limb with that one.

----------


## PhiAlpha

Haha, that is funny.

----------


## bige4ou

Found this on Youtube. Would look good I think.

----------


## Pete

It's been my experience that the employees of an organization -- apart from a handful of very top brass -- are the last ones to know about a merger/sale/relocation.

I say this as a former business executive and management consultant.

I was a Senior VP of a financial institution, in charge of strategic planning and real estate among other things.  And I only learned my company had been sold a day before i was announced.

And as a consultant, I've been involved with tons of mergers and reorgs and in all those cases, only a handful of people knew the real story and they never, ever leaked it.


This is why the sources I have found to be most helpful in this process are not employees or directly associated with the companies in question.

----------


## Pete

More solid information:

1. Houston has definitely not won anything.  Doesn't seem the HQ issue has been decided.

2. Renderings are likely with press release.

----------


## OU Adonis

> More solid information:
> 
> 1. Houston has definitely not won anything.  Doesn't seem the HQ issue has been decided.
> 
> 2. Renderings are likely with press release.


This part kinda confuses me.  How can you have a building rendering when you are not 100% how much of a workforce is going to be occupying it?  The numbers have to be dependent on if they are HQing here or not.

----------


## PWitty

Eh, either way it sounds like there will be a tower going up about the time I will be moving to OKC. Pretty cool  :Cool:

----------


## Pete

OG+E was going to build a new tower long before the Enogex/CenterPoint merger.

They hired a real estate consultant over a year ago to evaluate sites for them and before the MLP news.  And even then we heard it would be 30-40 floors.

So, they had/have that need regardless.


We also know the tower won't even be under construction until after there is a decision about the Enogex/CenterPoint HQ.  Probably take at least a year to get everything in order before breaking ground and the MLP entity said they wanted to make decisions this year.

So, perhaps the plan is to adjust if need be?

Remember, Devon changed it's plans a couple of times (first saying 37 floors, then 54, then 50) as they stepped through the programming of exactly what departments would be located where and evaluated their future growth.  And even then it seems lots of new things happened, like consolidating the Houston office, forming their own MLP and now running out of space much sooner than anticipated.


Things move fast in business these days and at some point you have to stop waiting for things to be resolved and just make some decisions.  And perhaps the Stage Center site coming available was good enough incentive to pull the trigger.

----------


## BrettM2

> This part kinda confuses me.  How can you have a building rendering when you are not 100% how much of a workforce is going to be occupying it?  The numbers have to be dependent on if they are HQing here or not.


Devon changed multiple times before construction began, so I imagine they can just do the same.  I'm sure they have multiple contigencies or maybe they already have enough of an idea to push forward.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Not when the opportunity to be dramatic presents itself.  You should know that after 2,200 posts.


I can't believe I have 158 posts in this thread alone...scratch that...159!

I hope the announcement is Friday, that way, I can enjoy my vacation.

----------


## Pete

Also...

Maybe OG+E wants to lock down this site and knew the window of opportunity was closing.

If the Enogex/CenterPoint entity is HQ'd in OKC and grows rapidly, perhaps THEY will go on the Stage Center site and OG+E can still build elsewhere.

Regardless, OG+E is going to build a tower.  So why not lock down the best piece of real estate in all of downtown OKC and leave your options open for acquiring more property if needed?

----------


## HangryHippo

> Also...
> 
> Maybe OG+E wants to lock down this site and knew the window of opportunity was closing.
> 
> If the Enogex/CenterPoint entity is HQ'd in OKC and grows rapidly, perhaps THEY will go on the Stage Center site and OG+E can still build elsewhere.
> 
> Regardless, OG+E is going to build a tower.  So why not lock down the best piece of real estate in all of downtown OKC and leave your options open for acquiring more property if needed?


The city could open up some more prime real estate if they weren't dead set on having the convention center just south of the Myriad Gardens.

Of course, we'd still have the minor problem of finding new tenants to build new towers.

----------


## Pete

There are several prime spots for new office towers still available:

South of Stage Center
NE corner RS Kerr & Hudson
SE corner EK Gaylord & 4th

----------


## Teo9969

> There are several prime spots for new office towers still available:
> 
> South of Stage Center
> NE corner RS Kerr & Hudson
> SE corner EK Gaylord & 4th


I'd also like to throw it out there that the SE corner of RS Kerr and Broadway would be a great place for a tower.

----------


## architect5311

Midland, Texas oil capital of America?

Developer: New tower to help show Midland as the ?Oil Capital of America? - Mywesttexas.com: Top Stories

----------


## dcsooner

> You don't miss a chance to add some negativity to the conversation do you?


One man's negativity is another's realism. Potato,  patoto

----------


## Bellaboo

DCsooner is okay, just a pessimist. And if we get something great, I'm coming after him !!!   lol

----------


## Teo9969

> One man's negativity is another's realism. Potato,  patoto


Oh this post is the definition of irony.

----------


## adaniel

What the hell is a patoto?

----------


## king183

I'd just like to say congratulations and a big thanks to Pete for working hard to track this information down and break the news first.  This is all very exciting.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> What the hell is a patoto?


 a quasi-vegetable in the same family as a tamoto.

----------


## Bellaboo

I thought it was going to be - potato / potatoe

----------


## Snowman

> Midland, Texas oil capital of America?
> 
> Developer: New tower to help show Midland as the ?Oil Capital of America? - Mywesttexas.com: Top Stories


While i only wish the best for them. It is not even the oil capital of Texas. Even Tulsa is looking for new branding from old oil capital of the world slogan and they might still have a better claim than Midland.

----------


## hoya

> I thought this may be the case all along.  Not standing by any longer with baited breath for  signficant announcement


Bated breath.  As in "abated" or shortened.  Baited breath means you been eatin' minnows.

Sorry.  :Smile:

----------


## Spartan

> From what it sounds like we will get one tower and a significant presence of the MLP but not the HQ. That may not be the slam dunk many here had hoped for but it's still a pretty big development. Cities like Memphis, Louisville, Wichita, Little Rock, etc would kill for an announcement like this.


We're not cities like Memphis, Louisville, and especially Wichita or LR.

----------


## Spartan

> More solid information:
> 
> 1. Houston has definitely not won anything.  Doesn't seem the HQ issue has been decided.
> 
> 2. Renderings are likely with press release.


Boo yah, take that Houston. I am loving the excitement of going head to head against a world class city for this major HQ. I remember the Boeing deal when OKC also went a lot further than people expected. We were in the final round of 4-5 cities. Got beat by Chicago, oh well lol. Boeing then learned what a cool city OKC would be for a lot of their ops, and we gained a thousand or so jobs anyway.

----------


## Spartan

> There are several prime spots for new office towers still available:
> 
> South of Stage Center
> NE corner RS Kerr & Hudson
> SE corner EK Gaylord & 4th


Pete - any way the south side of this site can be developed into a major mixed use project like KC Live/P&L along with the new tower? Are these sites "too good" for market development?

----------


## Jim Kyle

> What the hell is a patoto?


Perhaps what Toto leaves behind from time to time...

----------


## Praedura

It's beginning to look like a-new-tooooower... in dooooooown-town OOOOOOOh Kaaay Ceee ... (sung to the tune of "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas")
 :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

> Eh, either way it sounds like there will be a tower going up about the time I will be moving to OKC. Pretty cool


Good timing sir!

----------


## Praedura

> a quasi-vegetable in the same family as a tamoto.


I thought tamoto was a Japanese motorcycle.  :Redface:

----------


## Bellaboo

My family owns a few deep gas wells in western Oklahoma, the midstream operators on the wells are Enogex and Centerpoint Energy. I've looked a time or two lately to see if the name has changed to some combination of the two but it hasn't..yet. 

I'm sure it'll take a little time but I thought it was ironic when all this came to be back in March.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I thought tamoto was a Japanese motorcycle.


You're thinking of Quasi Tamoto, the horror film character....but I digress.

About the mystery tower

Best location(s) to mount a camera to monitor construction would be:

1 - The Devon Tower
2 - One North Hudson
3 - GOIVM's helicopter
4 - WIll Hider's tripod

----------


## BG918

> While i only wish the best for them. It is not even the oil capital of Texas. Even Tulsa is looking for new branding from old oil capital of the world slogan and they might still have a better claim than Midland.


Oil Capital of the Permian Basin

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> 4 - WIll Hider's tripod


Thanks. I'm feeling another 2-3 year project but even better this time around.

----------


## Praedura

> You're thinking of Quasi Tamoto, the horror film character....but I digress.


Yeah, that does kind of ring a bell.  :Wink: 





> Best location(s) to mount a camera to monitor construction would be:
> 
> 1 - The Devon Tower
> 2 - One North Hudson
> 3 - GOIVM's helicopter
> 4 - WIll Hider's tripod


Devon Tower absolutely. And I'm sure many will utilize that. One North Hudson would be a great spot, looking through that top floor glass -- I just hope people will be allowed up there.

Also, the Sheridan Parking garage across the street will be a good location. And I believe that the upper floors of the Oklahoma Tower should also have an excellent vantage point for documenting the construction.

----------


## Patrick

Talked to a reliable source at the chamber at lunch time and it looks like it's going to be Monday at 10AM, although I'm still hoping for Friday. Does anyone know who uses the city garage towards the north of the elementary school site? I wouldn't be surprised if OGE just used that garage, although I haven't asked any sources about it.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Talked to a reliable source at the chamber at lunch time and it looks like it's going to be Monday at 10AM, although I'm still hoping for Friday. Does anyone know who uses the city garage towards the north of the elementary school site? I wouldn't be surprised if OGE just used that garage, although I haven't asked any sources about it.


Good.  I'll be on vacation while all y'all are having fun with the new thread...

----------


## Pete

> Does anyone know who uses the city garage towards the north of the elementary school site? I wouldn't be surprised if OGE just used that garage, although I haven't asked any sources about it.


Lots of City workers and the elementary school will use it as well.  It's maxed out.

----------


## rlewis

> Also...
> 
> Maybe OG+E wants to lock down this site and knew the window of opportunity was closing.
> 
> If the Enogex/CenterPoint entity is HQ'd in OKC and grows rapidly, perhaps THEY will go on the Stage Center site and OG+E can still build elsewhere.
> 
> Regardless, OG+E is going to build a tower.  So why not lock down the best piece of real estate in all of downtown OKC and leave your options open for acquiring more property if needed?


I agree with you Pete.  One thing that has never made sense in all this discussion is why would a newly formed company spend several hundred million dollars to build a new skyscraper for its headquarters right out of the chute?  That is fiscally irresponsible.  They're just not going to use 30-40% of their revolving credit line on a skyscraper.  They need that credit line for much more important operational needs.

However, it does make sense that OG&E would fund the building of a tower mainly for its own purposes now, and then sell the tower to the MLP down the road.  By that time the MLP will be well established and will likely have the cash flows to service a debt note.

----------


## zookeeper

> I agree with you Pete.  One thing that has never made sense in all this discussion is why would a newly formed company spend several hundred million dollars to build a new skyscraper for its headquarters right out of the chute?  That is fiscally irresponsible.  They're just not going to use 30-40% of their revolving credit line on a skyscraper.  They need that credit line for much more important operational needs.
> 
> However, it does make sense that OG&E would fund the building of a tower mainly for its own purposes now, and then sell the tower to the MLP down the road.  By that time the MLP will be well established and will likely have the cash flows to service a debt note.


I guess I'll be the first to say it. I don't like the idea of a regulated "public utility" to be building a multimillion dollar skyscraper. I want a skyscraper, but I certainly hope it's not OG&E.

----------


## zookeeper

> I guess I'll be the first to say it. I don't like the idea of a regulated "public utility" to be building a multimillion dollar skyscraper. I want a skyscraper, but I certainly hope it's not OG&E.


To quote myself above, I'll say I'm counting on the MLP. I'll be very disappointed if it's my electric company.

----------


## okcpulse

My guess would be a multi-tenant spec building is developed and then leased to the MLP.  The MLP will need space one way or another, and given the scarcity of Class A space downtown, the default strategy is build space and then lease.

----------


## Spartan

> To quote myself above, I'll say I'm counting on the MLP. I'll be very disappointed if it's my electric company.


Why? They need office space.

----------


## Patrick

They'll probably be building a parking garage then. In the picture that was posted previously with the hypothetical Hong King tower pictured to resemble what the OGE tower could look like, there's a huge gap in the skyline between the Devon Tower and the hypothetical OGE tower. I really hope that the OGE tower is built on the east side of the SC property to close the gap. Something tells me though that they'll probably have a huge park in front of the building on the east side to flow into Myriad Gardens.

----------


## Patrick

My guess is that the building will be built large enough to house OG&E, Enogex, and a growing Enogex/CenterPoint MLP.

----------


## zookeeper

> My guess is that the building will be built large enough to house OG&E, Enogex, and a growing Enogex/CenterPoint MLP.


Patrick, It's my understanding Enogex ceases to exist after the new MLP is formed. Am I wrong?

----------


## Pete

The Enogex/CenterPoint merger closed in early May.

Just waiting on decisions about HQ, name, etc.

When the deal closed, they said they hoped to do an IPO in "6 to 12 months", so they have to be very close to making some big decisions.

----------


## zookeeper

> Why? They need office space.


Not a brand new skyscraper! They are already being sued by the feds for not complying with proper upgrades. OG&E has bigger needs with infrastructure before they build a spanking new skyscraper. I still think it's the MLP anyway.

----------


## Spartan

> Not a brand new skyscraper! They are already being sued by the feds for not complying with proper upgrades. OG&E has bigger needs with infrastructure before they build a spanking new skyscraper. I still think it's the MLP anyway.


Who isn't being sued by the Feds?

----------


## zookeeper

> Who isn't being sued by the Feds?


All the people who should be, but aren't.  :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

I don't really give a flying fish's patooty who's going to build the tower, just that SOMEBODY builds one and gets it going. Need to keep momentum for this town rolling...

----------


## zookeeper

> I don't really give a *flying fish's patooty* who's going to build the tower, just that SOMEBODY builds one and gets it going. Need to keep momentum for this town rolling...


Well, when you put it that way. 

Actually, I've thought about this and realize that if OG&E were to build a new tower, and only take a few floors, and have reasonable expectations to lease the Class A space and actually make money...

----------


## Praedura

> ...I really hope that the OGE tower is built on the east side of the SC property to close the gap. Something tells me though that they'll probably have a huge park in front of the building on the east side to flow into Myriad Gardens.


NO!!!! Please no. They don't need to do that at all. There is plenty of green space already in the Gardens proper. I wouldn't mind if they're set back just a little along Sheridan (but not too much), but along Hudson they should but against the street with nice retail frontage.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Not a brand new skyscraper! They are already being sued by the feds for not complying with proper upgrades. OG&E has bigger needs with infrastructure before they build a spanking new skyscraper. I still think it's the MLP anyway.


I don't see anything wrong with them consolidating, unloading small offices all around town, being more efficient, building state of the art, thus lowering operating costs. Heck CNP has a 42 story building in Houston.....

----------


## PhiAlpha

> To quote myself above, I'll say I'm counting on the MLP. I'll be very disappointed if it's my electric company.


Considering that they would be selling or leasing out their old space, they are going to be saving money at some point. there are also inefficiencies that will be reduced by consolidating into one building. it's not like they are frivolously throwing money into a massive new tower just to build it. It has to make good financial sense as well. As long as it is taking them to announce this, im sure theyve left no stone unturned in their research. Look at center point, they are similar to OG&E in that they are a utility with a large midstream division. They moved into a massive tower in Houston, there are no massive towers with space available and office space downtown is at a premium... Unless they want to be spread out all over downtown, what choice do they have as a growing company?

----------


## Praedura

About the gap thing...

That's a little hard to fix. Devon Tower is really set back from everything around it. To the south you've got the big expanse of the Myriad Gardens... and that's not going away. To the west is the Century Center, that may gain a tiny bit of height with the renovation, but will nevertheless stay low rise for the conceivable future. To the north, nothing is going to get any closer than the Oklahoma Tower, especially with Devon's huge garage on the NW corner that will preclude another tower at that spot. And to the west is the Preftakes area full of historical buildings. Maybe some will go down, but One North Hudson will remain in any event.

Thus Devon Tower is effectively buffered with "air space" around it for the near term (and perhaps long term too). And they very well may like it that way too as it makes their tower stand out and not get buried in a crowd of nearby highrises. Ok, DT is never gonna get buried because of its height, but the lower half of the tower could be blocked by other adjacent towers, if they could actually be built.

The future OKC skyline will likely get more extended and more impressive. But we just may not be able to duplicate the density of towers in the CBD for a long time to come.

----------


## bchris02

Duke Energy, the electric company in Charlotte moved into a tower as well.

----------


## lasomeday

> They'll probably be building a parking garage then. In the picture that was posted previously with the hypothetical Hong King tower pictured to resemble what the OGE tower could look like, there's a huge gap in the skyline between the Devon Tower and the hypothetical OGE tower. I really hope that the OGE tower is built on the east side of the SC property to close the gap. Something tells me though that they'll probably have a huge park in front of the building on the east side to flow into Myriad Gardens.


I hope its not on the east side, so it doesn't cast shadows in the winter on the Crystal Bridge.  Those tropical plants need as much sun in the winter as possible.

----------


## ljbab728

> I hope its not on the east side, so it doesn't cast shadows in the winter on the Crystal Bridge.  Those tropical plants need as much sun in the winter as possible.


The issue about shadows on the Crystal Bridge has been discussed a number of times at OKCTALK.  It's really just not going to be a problem.  The sun moves all day long and the periods of shadows there are minimal compared to what would be necessary to cause a problem.

----------


## Teo9969

> I hope its not on the east side, so it doesn't cast shadows in the winter on the Crystal Bridge.  Those tropical plants need as much sun in the winter as possible.


It's a 600+ foot tower...it could be put on the elementary site and it would cast shadows...

----------


## buylow

> I'm 90% sure it's OG+E but I have to say, the lid has been kept very tight on all this.
> 
> Amazing in this day and age!


its oge.

----------


## Praedura

> its oge.


Care to elaborate?  :Smile:

----------


## Bellaboo

> Care to elaborate?


I think buylow is 100% sure it's OG&E, not 90% sure as Pete is.

----------


## Praedura

> I think buylow is 100% sure it's OG&E, not 90% sure as Pete is.


Uh-huh... and the source of that confidence is...... what, pray tell? Enquiring minds want to know!

----------


## buylow

> Care to elaborate?


i wish i could.

----------


## Praedura

> i wish i could.


Rats!

Ok, I believe you anyway (because I pretty much assumed it was OG&E already, based on others).
But hey, if you feel like getting any other info about the tower off your chest, feel free!  :Smile:

----------


## Praedura

So is it Friday... or Monday?

----------


## catcherinthewry

> i wish i could.


Maybe buylow plays golf with Patrick.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

> Maybe buylow plays golf with Patrick.


No.  They're in the same bible study.

----------


## Patrick

The announcement better not come out tomorrow, because I have an afternoon tee time and an evening Bible study on Friday! Lol!

----------


## catch22

Maybe he'll announce it to you at Bible study. You can share the divine proverb from the mountain before he announces on Monday.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'd like to request that after the 'tower' is announced, maybe we can start a 'Mystery Tower II' thread....for the next one.

----------


## OKCNDN

Whoever bulds it they better put a Del Rancho in there somewhere.  Massive failure without one no matter the size.

----------


## coov23

I started this thread. I think I can manage a Mystery Tower part II thread.

----------


## dankrutka

Just keep the same thread going... It can be a permanent place for tower speculation. Actually, hasn't it already done that? It's not like OG&E tower was the only possible tower discussed. The board doesn't need more threads IMHO.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Just keep the same thread going... It can be a permanent place for tower speculation. Actually, hasn't it already done that? It's not like OG&E tower was the only possible tower discussed. The board doesn't need more threads IMHO.


I just thought we could run into a page limit ?

----------


## buylow

the announcement is not coming Friday.  it is coming before Wednesday of next week...

----------


## modernism

> the announcement is not coming Friday.  it is coming before Wednesday of next week...


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  oo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :Lame:

----------


## G.Walker

Man, an announcement tomm would have made my weekend, now we have to wait until as long as Wednesday? This sucks....then Wednesday will come and next they will say by the end of August, this thing  keeps dragging out...

----------


## Pete

Still trying to get more info on the announcement but it seems likely this is going to be pushed into early next week.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Man, an announcement tomm would have made my weekend, now we have to wait until as long as Wednesday? This sucks....then Wednesday will come and next they will say by the end of August, this thing  keeps dragging out...


I want to tell you to shut up & quit running off whining & saying stuff like that when the announcement doesn't happen when you want it to, but honestly, that's pretty much how this whole thing has gone. Biggest difference is we've never had any particular dates set like we do now, just a bunch of "before the end of the month.... I think" stuff.

----------


## G.Walker

It would have been nice for them to make an announcement tomm while the 900 chamber members from other cities visiting OKC were here for that conference, that would have been a big show off for OKC, but doesn't look like that's going to happen...oh well...

----------


## Romulack

Ok, somebody out there's gotta know something: barber, mechanic, waitress, maid, hooker... Surely someone's overheard stuff.

----------


## modernism

I don't see why what they wanted to announce Friday has to wait until Monday morning, like they will really be working on this over the weekend? Unless they are waiting from people to fly in from out of town who are attending announcement like the archtecture firm, CenterPoint, and ArchLight executives, if need be?

----------


## Pete

I understand there was some sort of scheduling problem; don't know any more than that.

----------


## catch22

I'm sure high ranking public officials and officers of the company would be present. Probably discovered that some of them had meetings or other time that could not be rescheduled at the last moment.

----------


## Bellaboo

> the announcement is not coming Friday.  it is coming before Wednesday of next week...


On the bright side, we're going to get an announcement of something big !

----------


## Patrick

> I understand there was some sort of scheduling problem; don't know any more than that.


In other words, someone is out of town until early next week.

----------


## dcsooner

> Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  oo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Another delay? Keep hope alive

----------


## bchris02

> Another delay? Keep hope alive


I hope the unthinkable doesn't happen and nothing ends up being announced. That's going to make all this hype and speculation very embarrassing.

I don't think that will be the case though. I think OKC is about to get a huge announcement, though not as big as some of what has been speculated here.

----------


## adaniel

> Another delay? Keep hope alive


You seriously kill me with your attitude.

Nobody is asking for constant sunshine pumping, but why do you bother even coming here if all you have nothing positive to add?

----------


## G.Walker

Stage Center sold | The Journal Record

----------


## architect5311

OMG, It's a building boom...!!!

----------


## modernism

> Stage Center sold | The Journal Record


According to the article we still might get some sort of announcement tomm!

----------


## bchris02

> OMG, It's a building boom...!!!


I kind of like that, with the Devon tower remaining the most prominent and also being the dividing line in the skyline between modern and classic.

----------


## bchris02

How about something like this?

----------


## Bellaboo

^     A stack of dirty plates ?

----------


## Rover

> How about something like this?


What the......

----------


## kevinpate

Oh, so that's what happened to all of Boss Hogg's old hats.







> ...

----------


## DowntownMan

Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | News OK


Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower
New high-rise will top 20 stories, and will be built on the current site of the Stage Center theater.

----------


## soonerguru

> How about something like this?


LOL, um, no. That building looks like a mummy.

----------


## dmoor82

Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | News OK

----------


## dmoor82

20 story highrise! Still could be 30-40 floors,Devon first announced 37 for the Devon tower!

----------


## soonerguru

So the "mystery" tenant is still a mystery. But we're getting a building. Yay.

----------


## DoctorTaco

Hmmm...

----------


## Rover

Wow. That still leaves OGE for another tower then.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

I'm getting a sinking feeling that Stage Center gets demo'd then the deal falls through.

----------


## soonerguru

> I'm getting a sinking feeling that Stage Center gets demo'd then the deal falls through.


In the article, the developer said he wouldn't pursue demo unless there's a tenant agreement signed. Still, this is pretty weird.

----------


## Thundercitizen

..............okaaaaayy......so......340' minimum height..............okay.   Probably grows to 30-40 floors.  Better to scale up than down.  Especially initially.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> How about something like this?


That poor dishwasher guy is NOT getting paid enough.

----------


## TheSocialGadfly

Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | NewsOK.com

----------


## ljbab728

Anyone up for posting Steve's article for a 4th time?  LOL 

Good new is always worth hearing more than once.

----------


## SoonerBeerMan

Better to link to his story than the Journal Record's high school level article.

----------


## ljbab728

I have no doubt that Steve has more knowledge about this and has had for a longer time than the Journal's reporter but all input is appreciated.

----------


## bchris02

Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | News OK

----------


## SoonerBoy18

Words cant express how excited I am, but I CANNOT Believe this thread turned out to be true, I was the biggest non believer. Lol

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | News OK

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Words cant express how excited I am, but I CANNOT Believe this thread turned out to be true, I was the biggest non believer. Lol


I never really gave up hope, but I did question just how real it was a few times.

----------


## ljbab728

> Words cant express how excited I am, but I CANNOT Believe this thread turned out to be true, I was the biggest non believer. Lol


Well shame on you.  Don't ever do that again.

----------


## Praedura

> Words cant express how excited I am, but I CANNOT Believe this thread turned out to be true, I was the biggest non believer. Lol


I forgive you.  But I believe you owe me twenty bucks. That was the amount of the bet, wasn't it?

 :Smiley112:

----------


## BlackmoreRulz

I heard Steve had an article in todays paper, anyone know where to find it?

----------


## gsan

> I heard Steve had an article in todays paper, anyone know where to find it?


A great place to start would be today's paper, it is also on Newsok and has been posted in this thread about 3 times.

----------


## Jim Kyle

I think five times, but who's counting?

----------


## s.hoff

So, is that all we are going to get until more details are released sometime in the next 90 days, or is there still going to be an announcement this morning or early next week?

----------


## SoonerTW

I'm not going to read 220 pages of posts so I don't know if this has been mentioned. I have heard that ConocoPhillips is spinning off Phillips and that Phillips is moving to OKC. I wonder if they could be a/the tenant. Their workforce could possibly take 20 floors or more.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm not going to read 220 pages of posts so I don't know if this has been mentioned. I have heard that ConocoPhillips is spinning off Phillips and that Phillips is moving to OKC. I wonder if they could be a/the tenant. Their workforce could possibly take 20 floors or more.


We've heard parts of that rumor.....please elaborate if you have more info ???

----------


## Anonymous.

> I'm not going to read 220 pages of posts so I don't know if this has been mentioned. I have heard that ConocoPhillips is spinning off Phillips and that Phillips is moving to OKC. I wonder if they could be a/the tenant. Their workforce could possibly take 20 floors or more.


I doubt it, considering this is being built in HOU for them:

----------


## OU Adonis

Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | News OK

Not sure if anyone's seen this yet.

----------


## Anonymous.

Okay, you people have to be trolling by now...

----------


## OU Adonis

Anyone else kinda bummed by the 20 story statement?   Based on the conversations here I was expecting this site to house the 2nd tallest building in OKC.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Anyone else kinda bummed by the 20 story statement?   Based on the conversations here I was expecting this site to house the 2nd tallest building in OKC.


Yes... they could have done us a favor and just said '30 minimum', that way we'd know for sure that it'd be taller than Chase aka Cotter.

----------


## Rover

> Anyone else kinda bummed by the 20 story statement?   Based on the conversations here I was expecting this site to house the 2nd tallest building in OKC.


No, because we don't know yet.  It very well may be.  Those who like to feel bummed will and those that are optimistic will be so.

----------


## buylow

> Anyone else kinda bummed by the 20 story statement?   Based on the conversations here I was expecting this site to house the 2nd tallest building in OKC.



20 stories in "today's architecture" will be taller than cotter ranch tower.

----------


## OklahomaNick

Anyone else think it's crazy that the first post in this thread starting the "Mystery Tower" speculation was Feb.8th 2012?!?
That was a year and a half ago! My we have been patient.. and we are going to have to wait a little bit longer!

----------


## BoulderSooner

> 20 stories in "today's architecture" will be taller than cotter ranch tower.


doubtful  that would mean that it would have to average 25 ft a floor ....  devon averaged 17 a floor

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Anyone else think it's crazy that the first post in this thread starting the "Mystery Tower" speculation was Feb.8th 2012?!?
> That was a year and a half ago! My we have been patient.. and we are going to have to wait a little bit longer!


That's the disadvantage of knowing about things far in advance!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Since no one mentioned this yet, Steve said the likely location for "mystery tower 2" is the Preftakes block.

----------


## Snowman

> Since no one mentioned this yet, Steve said the likely location for "mystery tower 2" is the Preftakes block.


So is it time to start speculation on where #3 goes

----------


## OU Adonis

Did he mention the size of MT#2?

----------


## buylow

> doubtful  that would mean that it would have to average 25 ft a floor ....  devon averaged 17 a floor


id bet its more than 500ft tall

----------


## UnFrSaKn

From the live chat:



> 10:48
> Steve Lackmeyer: We are looking at the Preftakes properties being the likely home for a mystery tower 2.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Another:



> 11:07
> Steve Lackmeyer: Here's something that will really drive you guys crazy.... I'm starting to see hints that there maybe a mystery tower 3 in the works.....

----------


## bchris02

Maybe the sunshine optimists will be right after all. 3 towers and the MLP HQ in OKC. We really won't know though until we know where that HQ will end up.

----------


## warreng88

Obviously tower 1 will go on the Stage Center site. Tower 2 is probably going to go on the Preftakes block. I would guess Tower 3 is going to go on the area south of Stage Center and it will take longer since they have properties, not just one, to buy and renegotiate leases.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Obviously tower 1 will go on the Stage Center site. Tower 2 is probably going to go on the Preftakes block. I would guess Tower 3 is going to go on the area south of Stage Center and it will take longer since they have properties, not just one, to buy and renegotiate leases.


I don't think Mystery Tower 3 will end up there.  I'm not sure, but I just don't think that's the spot.

----------


## Praedura

> Obviously tower 1 will go on the Stage Center site. Tower 2 is probably going to go on the Preftakes block. I would guess Tower 3 is going to go on the area south of Stage Center and it will take longer since they have properties, not just one, to buy and renegotiate leases.


Or Tower 3 is a new OG&E HQ going up in the lot north of the museum.

----------


## warreng88

Interesting:

11:21 - I know you mentioned parking will be included. Is this also on the stage center site, or would this possibly be across the street at preftakes block?  

11:22  Steve Lackmeyer: Ah hah.... good question. Now we have someone starting to look at how green might be blue.... *who says a garage in that spot couldn't accommodate two towers?*  I don't know the answer to this. But this is the sort of shift in thinking I'm talking about.

----------


## Will

> Steve Lackmeyer: 
> There are deals in play that, if they come to fruition, will challenge everyone's assumptions about what's going on in this city. Up is down. Left is right. Blue is yellow. Quit making assumptions based on what you've heard and what you know.


I thought this was interesting.

----------


## redrunner

Gosh, the smell of sulphur in this room is too much for me.  I've never seen such a hyperactive speculation obsessed group of people before.  When you over fantasize and the news under delivers...you're gonna have a bad time.

----------


## warreng88

> I thought this was interesting.


Yeah, I am not sure what to make of that. A think outside of the box kind of thing. We know there will be a tower more than 20 stories tall built on the Stage Center site, we know this. Parking will be taken care of, but not necessarily on that site. There are at least three other areas that have been mentioned for tower sites: the area south of SC, Preftakes and Kerr and Hudson. What could be happening that would "challenge everone's assuptions about what's going on in this city"? Maybe something we are not thinking of and not energy related? A major company moving their headquarters to OKC from out of state that is not an energy company?

----------


## Thundercitizen

> I thought this was interesting.


Another cryptic quatrain.

----------


## Thundercitizen

> ...Maybe something we are not thinking of and not energy related? A major company moving their headquarters to OKC from out of state that is not an energy company?


Yeah, that was my initial thought as well...a non-energy company.

----------


## Will

> Yeah, I am not sure what to make of that. A think outside of the box kind of thing. We know there will be a tower more than 20 stories tall built on the Stage Center site, we know this. Parking will be taken care of, but not necessarily on that site. There are at least three other areas that have been mentioned for tower sites: the area south of SC, Preftakes and Kerr and Hudson. What could be happening that would "challenge everone's assuptions about what's going on in this city"? Maybe something we are not thinking of and not energy related? A major company moving their headquarters to OKC from out of state that is not an energy company?


It was in response to a question about MidFirst moving downtown, so the "non-energy company" thought might be right.  It was as cryptic as ever though.  I would love to see a company other than Oil & Gas have a large presence downtown.

----------


## mcca7596

Why is everyone discounting the 4th and E.K. Gaylord site nowadays?

----------


## HangryHippo

> Why is everyone discounting the 4th and E.K. Gaylord site nowadays?


This is the site I'd most like to see developed.

----------


## metro

Because we know the Stage Center site is closing, not to mention is PRIME parkside space that can't be duplicated, 4th and EK is not PRIME space and fronts rail lines, not quite the same.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Someone asked about MT1 if there was any info and Steve said, "it's been announced".  To me, "announced" is when you see a thread on the name of the building, predetermined floor count and height.  We very well can't put 'OKC - MT1, ?, ?' as a thread line for an announcement on skyscraperpage.com or folks like Cashville are going to burn us for being loopy.  The day I see a true thread topic with specs and renderings and it's not called MT1 anymore is when it will be official--for me at least.

----------


## Patrick

Guys, Rainey Williams, new owner of the SC site, is one of the executive directors of Enogex. Remember that when you're thinking who might anchor MT #1. Pete had good sources and wasn't wrong here.

----------


## modernism

> Someone asked about MT1 if there was any info and Steve said, "it's been announced".  To me, "announced" is when you see a thread on the name of the building, predetermined floor count and height.  We very well can't put 'OKC - MT1, ?, ?' as a thread line for an announcement on skyscraperpage.com or folks like Cashville are going to burn us for being loopy.  The day I see a true thread topic with specs and renderings and it's not called MT1 anymore is when it will be official--for me at least.


Guys, this is how big projects usually come to fruition. Soft announcement first, just stating what is going to take place, then a hard announcement usually follows a few months later with more details, renderings, etc. Remember, Devon Tower had a soft announcement first, in March of 2008 with no renderings, etc., but then in August we were all amazed on the final outcome. We are not used to this, people in Austin and Houston are probably laughing at us right now, this is an everyday thing for them, lol.

----------


## s.hoff

So we shouldn't be expecting anything else early next week? I don't mind waiting for the details to come out sometime in the next few months, but I also want to keep a lookout if there is more news coming next week.

----------


## modernism

Here is an example of a soft announcement of new tower in Houston with little details, in March of 2011:

Skyscrapers buck the recession: Hines plans another new office towe... - CultureMap Houston

Now here is the same project but with hard announcment over two years later, needless to say, big projects take time:

Hines touts new skyscraper in downtown Houston - CultureMap Houston

----------


## BoulderSooner

> So we shouldn't be expecting anything else early next week? I don't mind waiting for the details to come out sometime in the next few months, but I also want to keep a lookout if there is more news coming next week.


something in the next 90 days

----------


## hoya

> something in the next 90 days


Which just happens to match up with the plans for the next big announcement from the Enogex MLP.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Guys, this is how big projects usually come to fruition. Soft announcement first, just stating what is going to take place, then a hard announcement usually follows a few months later with more details, renderings, etc. Remember, Devon Tower had a soft announcement first, in March of 2008 with no renderings, etc., but then in August we were all amazed on the final outcome. We are not used to this, people in Austin and Houston are probably laughing at us right now, this is an everyday thing for them, lol.


Don't discount what I said. I joined this site in March of 2008 when that Devon announcement was made. I know it is a long process. Re-read what I wrote.

----------


## OklahomaNick

Has anyone actually seen a press release that was supposed to be going out today?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Has anyone actually seen a press release that was supposed to be going out today?


The only story that went out today was the one that Lackmeyer wrote which came out on newsok.com late last night.  It was linked at least 5 times one page back.

----------


## Bellaboo

The Journal Record had a little bit of a story also.

----------


## Patrick

Yeah, the JR basically discussed the rumors circulating here. My opinion is that they were trying to beat Steve to the punch.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Yeah, the JR basically discussed the rumors circulating here. My opinion is that they were trying to beat Steve to the punch.


I think you're right. I'll give you some credit, I think your prediction of OG&E possibly announcing later this year was spot on.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

So, to understand this right, the "press release", was just an announcement from Steve????? Not discrediting him in any way, but what the hell????????? I thought we were going to get an actually press release from the builder or the company building their new HQ.

Was this how the Devon story was announced? Either way, I really do appreciate Steve and Pete's involvement in trying to get solid info and bringing this forward, though.

----------


## PhiAlpha

If I remember correctly, this is how Devon made their announcement. No big press release or media gathering until they unveiled the renderings and models.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I thought you were told along with everyone else on the forum that an official announcement would be made early next week.


yeah, I looked back at the previous posts and neither Pete nor Steve said anything about a press release, just a major announcement. I'm not sure where I got that from, probably just got over excited and "saw" it somewhere.

----------


## Patrick

The press release will come "before the end of the year" or rather more specifically, within the next 90 days. In other words, once the anchor tenant is sign and its determined exactly how much space they'll need to dictate the size of the tower.

----------


## loveOKC

What happened to this thread, I had to google search it to find it? Did it move?  What is the most up to date news on this tower

----------


## Snowman

Talk on it has moved to the Stage Center Tower thread since we now have a location

----------


## Thundercitizen

There is some discussion about another Mystery Tower (#2), however, directly south of the now less-mysterious tower or at the Preftakes block directly west of the Devon Tower.

----------


## okcRE

I hear from a good source that mystery tower #2 is in the work. We're looking at an announcement in 8 months.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I hear from a good source that mystery tower #2 is in the work. We're looking at an announcement in 8 months.


Any idea of a location ?

----------


## dankrutka

> I hear from a good source that mystery tower #2 is in the work. We're looking at an announcement in 8 months.


And if its not 8 months exactly or doesn't happen, don't have a meltdown. Lol.

----------


## Praedura

> I hear from a good source that mystery tower #2 is in the work. We're looking at an announcement in 8 months.


That's very cool. But I have to say... 8 months is an eternity. So much could change in that time (plans altered, shifted, aborted, postponed). We saw how fluid things were (are) in the Mystery Tower #1.

Still, I'll take solace in the fact that so many are hearing rumors of a second tower firming up. And no doubt -- that kind of timeline would be awesome. That would put the announcement of tower #2 only about six months after the details of tower #1 were released. Now _that_ would be exciting!

----------


## NWOKCGuy

If I remember correctly, Steve did say we could hear about a second tower before the end of the year.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> If I remember correctly, Steve did say we could hear about a second tower before the end of the year.


I have a feeling the year ends in 4 1/2 months.  Maybe he meant "within a year" from the time he stated that.

----------


## Harvey Hudson

Hudson and Kerr looks talks heating up...

----------


## Bellaboo

> Hudson and Kerr looks talks heating up...


Mystery Tower III

----------


## Thundercitizen

Hey,
Did you hear this about Mystery Tower II (Preftakes site) from LRSooner?:




> My cousin (works at Devon) had a discussion with one of the site managers of the Devon Tower construction a couple of weeks back and is very clued in to the downtown happenings. Take it for what it's worth, he was told the Stage Center tower would be 20-25 stories in height, but didn't share who the main tenant would be. It got interesting when discussing the Preftakes (spelling) site, he confirmed a deal is very much in the closing stages and MIGHT be announced this winter (said the info is very delicate, wouldn't want to mess up a possible deal this late in the game). Believe it or not, the source told him it was a bank (currently without a footprint in state) wanting to set up shop with *a new 40 story tower* (he gave me a possible name, but again, said it's apparently highly classified..ugh) they would inhabit the upper half floors while leasing out the bottom. Again, this is third hand info, so it might be safe to to take with a grain of salt, but my cousin said this guy knows his stuff. We shall see.

----------


## bchris02

> Hey,
> Did you hear about this about Mystery Tower II (Preftakes site) from LRSooner?:


Definite interesting speculation.  I won't bank on it though until it comes from Steve.  It would definitely be huge for OKC's economy to get the presence of a major financial institution here.  While the financial industry is far more dependent on the national economy than energy, it does drive huge white collar job growth which would help take OKC to the next level.

----------


## lasomeday

> Definite interesting speculation.  I won't bank on it though until it comes from Steve.  It would definitely be huge for OKC's economy to get the presence of a major financial institution here.  While the financial industry is far more dependent on the national economy than energy, it does drive huge white collar job growth which would help take OKC to the next level.


I am hoping its an international bank like UBS.  That would be great!

----------


## ljbab728

I won't say this can't happen but it just really seems far out that a bank with no previous presence here would come in and build a tower.

----------


## Teo9969

If I had to guess, it would be Chase, BoA, or Citi. Not unreasonable to think that either Chase or BoA could benefit from more presence in OKC, since it is an expanding market.

----------


## hoya

My guess is that they aren't building a tower, but would be an anchor tenant for another spec building.  According to the rumor, anyway.

----------


## sroberts24

what about Wells Fargo?

----------


## GaryOKC6

> If I had to guess, it would be Chase, BoA, or Citi. Not unreasonable to think that either Chase or BoA could benefit from more presence in OKC, since it is an expanding market.


I was at a tailgate party at the OU game on Saturday wirh several people from Chase.  We were discussing the possibility of a new tower and who it could be.  they all agreed that it could very well be them but did not know.  They told me that their corporate leadership came in recently and did not like thier offices ata ll.  They also said that they are now on a month to month lease with Cotter Ranch tower and are looking for a new location.  This could possibly be the new Chase tower.

----------


## Praedura

> I was at a tailgate party at the OU game on Saturday wirh several people from Chase.  We were discussing the possibility of a new tower and who it could be.  they all agreed that it could very well be them but did not know.  They told me that their corporate leadership came in recently and did not like thier offices ata ll.  They also said that they are now on a month to month lease with Cotter Ranch tower and are looking for a new location.  *This could possibly be the new Chase tower.*


Somebody slap me!
 :Cool:

----------


## Pete

Something we haven't talked about...

If we get more 2-3 new towers will a decent amount of spec space, you can bet that lots of existing tenants at Chase and other middling buildings will jump to the new, sexy digs.

This is exactly what happened when Leadership Square opened, as very few new companies were expanding or moving downtown; they merely moved in a bunch of companies that were already officing in the CBD -- I worked for one of them.

This will certainly happen to some degree and may be a kick in the pants to the other building owners to invest in their properties and up their game to compete.

----------


## bchris02

> Something we haven't talked about...
> 
> If we get more 2-3 new towers will a decent amount of spec space, you can bet that lots of existing tenants at Chase and other middling buildings will jump to the new, sexy digs.
> 
> This is exactly what happened when Leadership Square opened, as very few new companies were expanding or moving downtown; they merely moved in a bunch of companies that were already officing in the CBD -- I worked for one of them.
> 
> This will certainly happen to some degree and may be a kick in the pants to the other building owners to invest in their properties and up their game to compete.


As much as I would like to see major business growth downtown accompanied by new towers, I think you may be right, especially with the wave of bad economic news our area has received recently. I hope we get at least one solid corporate tower out of this when all is said and done.

----------


## Bellaboo

Maybe, just maybe, the Stage Center site is connected with Chase ?

----------


## Praedura

> Maybe, just maybe, the Stage Center site is connected with Chase ?


Skybridge?  :Wink:

----------


## bombermwc

We've been fortunate so far in that as space was freed up by Devon, that we had someone to come in and take it back (mostly from Continental). The same is true for Kerr McGee being filled by Sandridge. Those are not the typical scenarios for such large spaces being vacated. It appears that Cotter has actually tried to do some renovations with the building though. The lobby has been renovated, which is more than has been done to the place with the previous 3 owners. So while, at least at first, it seemed he wasn't going to do much to the place, it does appear that he's at least making an effort....you have to start somewhere.

So even if Chase Corp. doesn't like the current office space, do they really occupy enough of the building to warranty the construction of a new one? I don't think so. In most instances, the regional offices like this one occupy space in a tower that they put a sign up on...not that they build new so they can lease out space. Remember, they're a bank, not a real estate developer. They supply capital to those companies, they are not that company. My point here is that if by some weird happenstance Chase moved out and built something, we're going to need to fill that space in order to keep downtown growing.

If your occupancy rate is low, prices are low, and there is little chance of investment in facilities because the ROI from the low rent is so much longer. We've trimmed off a lot of B and C space by converting it to residential and that's helped a LOT in the rates. But it's a bit of a false positive since it is a conversion. The need for tha A space to not be super cheap is what's required to keep NEW developments coming in. A high occupancy rate means downtown is attractive and there might be more market to add space and make money from. A low rate means it's not attractive, and you won't see anyone buildling.

So before we get too excited about what might be coming, we need to be just as excited and ENCOURAGING (dont dog them just because they didn't build something new) of the companies that come in and fill the void. They are just as important as the new construction folks. And don't forget, Sandridge's Amenities building is now going to be the first available Class A generally leasable building built downtown in how many decades? Since Leadership Square? Since it's converted to being leaseable, it's a whole new world that we haven't seen in quite a long time....it's really been almost 30 years folks. You can't count Devon since it was purpose-built. The bread and butter of downtown is genearlly leasable space with the onsie twosie tenants. We NEED that place to be successful before we can even hope to see something major go in at Preftakes or Stage Center.

I know we all want it to happen, but honestly, when was the last time a corporation moved several thousand employees anywhere in the U.S. to warrant the construction of an entirely brand new 30+ floor tower? Steve jumped too quickly on his video report about these two blocks and gave a lot of non-information...mostly just said what has been said here, not actual data from a corporate source. And keep in mind, you'll see data flow in large amounts and quickly should someone decide to build. Remember we saw the blurprints for Devon loaded to the permit office and available online more than a year before groundbreaking....and all we've seen with these two sites has been piecemeal preftakes land grabs and a defunt stage center change hands again.

I'm not a pessimist, im just a realist.

----------


## Bellaboo

Bomber,

What you need to consider is that it would more than likely be a spec tower by a developer, like Rainey Williams, not the bank itself that would build. 
I remember when Boatmans Bank building hopped shortly after they arrived.
Also, Continental is taking up more space in the Chase tower than we could have expected. So it would not put that much space out on the market at any given time.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> We've been fortunate so far in that as space was freed up by Devon, that we had someone to come in and take it back (mostly from Continental). The same is true for Kerr McGee being filled by Sandridge. Those are not the typical scenarios for such large spaces being vacated. It appears that Cotter has actually tried to do some renovations with the building though. The lobby has been renovated, which is more than has been done to the place with the previous 3 owners. So while, at least at first, it seemed he wasn't going to do much to the place, it does appear that he's at least making an effort....you have to start somewhere.
> 
> So even if Chase Corp. doesn't like the current office space, do they really occupy enough of the building to warranty the construction of a new one? I don't think so. In most instances, the regional offices like this one occupy space in a tower that they put a sign up on...not that they build new so they can lease out space. Remember, they're a bank, not a real estate developer. They supply capital to those companies, they are not that company. My point here is that if by some weird happenstance Chase moved out and built something, we're going to need to fill that space in order to keep downtown growing.
> 
> If your occupancy rate is low, prices are low, and there is little chance of investment in facilities because the ROI from the low rent is so much longer. We've trimmed off a lot of B and C space by converting it to residential and that's helped a LOT in the rates. But it's a bit of a false positive since it is a conversion. The need for tha A space to not be super cheap is what's required to keep NEW developments coming in. A high occupancy rate means downtown is attractive and there might be more market to add space and make money from. A low rate means it's not attractive, and you won't see anyone buildling.
> 
> So before we get too excited about what might be coming, we need to be just as excited and ENCOURAGING (dont dog them just because they didn't build something new) of the companies that come in and fill the void. They are just as important as the new construction folks. And don't forget, Sandridge's Amenities building is now going to be the first available Class A generally leasable building built downtown in how many decades? Since Leadership Square? Since it's converted to being leaseable, it's a whole new world that we haven't seen in quite a long time....it's really been almost 30 years folks. You can't count Devon since it was purpose-built. The bread and butter of downtown is genearlly leasable space with the onsie twosie tenants. We NEED that place to be successful before we can even hope to see something major go in at Preftakes or Stage Center.
> 
> I know we all want it to happen, but honestly, when was the last time a corporation moved several thousand employees anywhere in the U.S. to warrant the construction of an entirely brand new 30+ floor tower? Steve jumped too quickly on his video report about these two blocks and gave a lot of non-information...mostly just said what has been said here, not actual data from a corporate source. And keep in mind, you'll see data flow in large amounts and quickly should someone decide to build. Remember we saw the blurprints for Devon loaded to the permit office and available online more than a year before groundbreaking....and all we've seen with these two sites has been piecemeal preftakes land grabs and a defunt stage center change hands again.
> ...


This is after all  Mystery Tower( SPECULATION, news and ideas) not  Mystery Tower( REALISM, news and ideas)

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> This is after all  Mystery Tower( SPECULATION, news and ideas) not  Mystery Tower( REALISM, news and ideas)


I would presume that most on here would prefer that those not be mutually exclusive  i.e. they would prefer realistic / reality-based speculation rather than hopes-and-dreams speculation. 

Do you not care whether or not any speculation is based in some reality? If that's the case, then we can make up anything and guise it as "speculation."

----------


## GaryOKC6

> I would presume that most on here would prefer that those not be mutually exclusive  i.e. they would prefer realistic / reality-based speculation rather than hopes-and-dreams speculation. 
> 
> Do you not care whether or not any speculation is based in some reality? If that's the case, then we can make up anything and guise it as "speculation."


Don't tirn my reply into something that it is not.  Simply put.  that was his opinion just like a lot of others.  To the posters they are as realistic as anyone else.  His reality may not be mine and mine not his or yours.  I do not think that anyone on here is making things up but if you look at the history of this thread it mosty all speculation.

----------


## jn1780

We need a nice 30 story multipurpose Class A space that isn't entirely devoted to one company. Its hard to diversify our econonmy when a few energy companys is taking up all the good space.

----------


## bombermwc

It is true, this is a venue for all opinions. But i believe the INTENT of this thread is to discuss the PROBABLE tower more than sky dreams. If I'm wrong on that, then by all means, dream away. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! I remember back in the early 2000's talking to people about hoping someone would build a 50 floor tower downtown....and lookie now!!! WOOT!

But when we do dream HERE, we should also keep some practicality in mind. That's all i was trying to say. We can dream of an NFL stadium or 5 more 40+ floor towers, or a totally urban core. But whilst we dream our big dreams, lets not abandon the practical conversations as well. As jn1780 just said, Class A needs to be able to survive on more than a single tenant. Single tenant buildings also leave you vulnerable. When (and eventually they all do) that company falters either in downsizing or a change in the use of its product, that building suddenly has to find a new purpose for itself. How do you think every single one of the buildings downton got to where they are today? Braniff, First National, countless I.M. Pei razed structures. So how survivable is that structure later as a multi-tenant building and are there going to be businesses that even want to occupy that space?

Dream high, but keep your feet planted.

----------


## bchris02

> It is true, this is a venue for all opinions. But i believe the INTENT of this thread is to discuss the PROBABLE tower more than sky dreams. If I'm wrong on that, then by all means, dream away. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! I remember back in the early 2000's talking to people about hoping someone would build a 50 floor tower downtown....and lookie now!!! WOOT!
> 
> But when we do dream HERE, we should also keep some practicality in mind. That's all i was trying to say. We can dream of an NFL stadium or 5 more 40+ floor towers, or a totally urban core. But whilst we dream our big dreams, lets not abandon the practical conversations as well. As jn1780 just said, Class A needs to be able to survive on more than a single tenant. Single tenant buildings also leave you vulnerable. When (and eventually they all do) that company falters either in downsizing or a change in the use of its product, that building suddenly has to find a new purpose for itself. How do you think every single one of the buildings downton got to where they are today? Braniff, First National, countless I.M. Pei razed structures. So how survivable is that structure later as a multi-tenant building and are there going to be businesses that even want to occupy that space?
> 
> Dream high, but keep your feet planted.


I agree.  Personally, I think all the OKC skyline really needs is at least one more tower, taller than Chase but shorter than Devon to balance it out.  Beyond that, I think OKC should focus more on street-level density than building towers.  However, as much as I love the Devon Tower it does dwarf the remainder of the skyline and another tower should really help it.  I really don't like comparing OKC to Portland but Portland is one of America's greatest cities because of its streetscape, not its skyline.  Louisville, a city comparable to OKC, doesn't have that impressive of a skyline but their downtown streetscape is a good deal ahead of OKC's.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Two towers...one between the heights of Chase and Devon and one outside and to the southwest of Devon so that it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb on the edge (which will most likely happen).

----------


## HangryHippo

So with Devon's new MLP deciding to locate its headquarters in Dallas, what becomes of the mystery tower speculation for the Preftakes block?

----------


## bchris02

> So with Devon's new MLP deciding to locate its headquarters in Dallas, what becomes of the mystery tower speculation for the Preftakes block?


We are slowly but surely losing possible mystery towers. It wouldn't surprise me when all is said and done, the only thing that gets built is the 20 story Stage Center Tower. Other cities that have seen huge skyline booms in the past decade have seen mostly residential towers. If OKC was to see the 2-3 possible towers Steve was originally tracking, that would be unprecedented for a city this size. OKC is growing but I don't think its growing that fast.

----------


## Teo9969

Just because we're losing potential matches for Mystery Towers does not mean we're losing Mystery Towers.

At one point, we probably had 5 to 8 different entities we were tracking as possible tenants, but we were never thinking that we'd hit 5 towers.

Still on the table:

Continental
Devon Tower Part 2 (It didn't have to be an MLP thing...Devon is still huge and growing)
Enable
OGE
Bank
Residential
Spec

and though I don't personally believe at this point it's part of any of the mystery tower discussion, were a company like Shell to buy out SD, they may decide to have offices in OKC.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> We are slowly but surely losing possible mystery towers. It wouldn't surprise me when all is said and done, the only thing that gets built is the 20 story Stage Center Tower. Other cities that have seen huge skyline booms in the past decade have seen mostly residential towers. If OKC was to see the 2-3 possible towers Steve was originally tracking, that would be unprecedented for a city this size. OKC is growing but I don't think its growing that fast.


We haven't lost any towers. If you read the article a few months ago about the Devon MLP, it said that the new MLP wouldn't have any employees. I imagine that crosstex has partnered with Devon to operate their midstream assets in conjunction with Devon employees. If the MLP wasn't going to have any employees, then this was not tied to a tower rumor.

----------


## cagoklahoma

AHHHHHHHHHH! The sky is falling and there won't be any new towers to catch it! Woe is us. 

In related news, The Gorton's Fisherman company announced they are not relocating to OKC as I had previously thought. So there's another tower that's not coming. (I guess my uncle's friend's nephew's cousin who worked in construction 15 years ago, doesn't actually know what he's talking about)  

We'll probably end up with Devon moving to Houston and then demolishing their tower. 

#CalmDownFolks #CanyouHashtageOnOKCTalk #GoingToAnyway

----------


## Dustin

#thisthreadisridiculous

----------


## Praedura

> AHHHHHHHHHH! The sky is falling and there won't be any new towers to catch it! Woe is us. 
> 
> In related news, *The Gorton's Fisherman company announced they are not relocating to OKC* as I had previously thought. So there's another tower that's not coming. (I guess my uncle's friend's nephew's cousin who worked in construction 15 years ago, doesn't actually know what he's talking about)  
> 
> We'll probably end up with Devon moving to Houston and then demolishing their tower. 
> 
> #CalmDownFolks #CanyouHashtageOnOKCTalk #GoingToAnyway


Dammit!!! And I had been so anticipating their new tower downtown in the shape of a giant fish stick.  :Frown: 
 :Smile:

----------


## adaniel

> AHHHHHHHHHH! The sky is falling and there won't be any new towers to catch it! Woe is us. 
> 
> In related news, The Gorton's Fisherman company announced they are not relocating to OKC as I had previously thought. So there's another tower that's not coming. (I guess my uncle's friend's nephew's cousin who worked in construction 15 years ago, doesn't actually know what he's talking about)


I'm sure they would have come if we had more than 1 Whole Foods. Everyone knows that a city that has fewer than 5 Whole Foods is a ****hole. And every city our size has 20 new skyscrapers under construction. What's your excuse, OKC? 

Seriously, everyone here should just give up and move to Dallas.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I've heard from multiple people that Harold Hamm will not be building a tower for Continental in the near future(10+years). He is just way too conservative and will fill up every vacant building in downtown before he does that. Take it for what it's worth, but this is what I've heard from some very trusted people I know.

----------


## warreng88

> I've heard from multiple people that Harold Hamm will not be building a tower for Continental in the near future(10+years). He is just way too conservative and will fill up every vacant building in downtown before he does that. Take it for what it's worth, but this is what I've heard from some very trusted people I know.


My brother worked at Continental and said the same thing. He said the technology for viewing documents over there was so outdated, it was probably losing them money since only one person at a time could see a well report of title. This is due to nothing being digital and there were only hard copies. My brother brought up several times that Continental needed to invest in the technology and it was shot down about five times. It would increase productivity as well.

----------


## Teo9969

> I've heard from multiple people that Harold Hamm will not be building a tower for Continental in the near future(10+years). He is just way too conservative and will fill up every vacant building in downtown before he does that. Take it for what it's worth, but this is what I've heard from some very trusted people I know.


He's certainly conservative, but if the company grows as fast as he wants it to, then he's going to probably change his mind when he's got 1,000 employees occupying 15 buildings downtown.

That, or he can buy other towers already in existence and someone else will build a spec tower.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> He's certainly conservative, but if the company grows as fast as he wants it to, then he's going to probably change his mind when he's got 1,000 employees occupying 15 buildings downtown.
> 
> That, or he can buy other towers already in existence and someone else will build a spec tower.


Yeah, I'm sure they eventually will, it will just be down the road. I would love for this to happen,  but it just doesn't look very likely in the near future unfortunately(from what I've heard).

----------


## Pete

Hamm isn't so conservative that it stopped him from paying $3 million for a house in Nichols Hills when his business was still in Enid.

He also donated $10 million to the OU Diabetes Center.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

$3 million personal house versus new $500+ million company tower. I'm not trying to be negative here, just looking at realities. I hope this this happens and I would love to be wrong on this.

----------


## Pete

He also just bought the building they are in (20 N. Broadway) for $22 million.


Hamm loves to play up the I-eat-at-Sonic image but he's splashed out plenty of cash and has personal net worth of over $12 billion; it grew by over $2 billion just last year.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Well, then I don't know what to say other than what I've heard from various people about the matter. Really would love to see a new one built though!

----------


## Bellaboo

CLR is worth billions. Some day it will be necessary for them to expand as long as they are still growing.

----------


## Pete

> Well, then I don't know what to say other than what I've heard from various people about the matter. Really would love to see a new one built though!


Didn't mean to be argumentative because I've heard that stuff, too.

Hamm plays that sort of thing up but building a $500 million tower would be pocket change to him.  That's 3 months of income.

----------


## zookeeper

> He's certainly conservative, but if the company grows as fast as he wants it to, then he's going to probably change his mind when he's got 1,000 employees occupying 15 buildings downtown.
> 
> That, or he can buy other towers already in existence and someone else will build a spec tower.


Exactly. Also, remember, he said in a national magazine interview years ago he'd *never* leave Enid. Things change.

----------


## Pete

And keep in mind, in this country there are incredible tax incentives to own versus lease.

It's exactly why so many large companies build/buy their own buildings.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Didn't mean to be argumentative because I've heard that stuff, too.
> 
> Hamm plays that sort of thing up but building a $500 million tower would be pocket change to him.  That's 3 months of income.


You didn't sound argumentative to me, just giving your perspective on it. That's interesting to know he spent that much on a house when he was still in Enid and is a fairly high roller, hopefully we will see something soon!

----------


## kevinpate

> ... 
>  a $500 million tower would be pocket change to him.  That's 3 months of income.


maybe five months if he always wants fries with his burger.

----------


## Dustin

> He also just bought the building they are in (20 N. Broadway) for $22 million.
> 
> 
> Hamm loves to play up the I-eat-at-Sonic image but he's splashed out plenty of cash and has personal net worth of over $12 billion; it grew by over $2 billion just last year.


Wow... He's worth $12,000 million.  To put that into perspective:

1 million seconds is approx 11 days..... 1 billion seconds is about 30 YEARS.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Wow... He's worth $12,000 million.  To put that into perspective:
> 
> 1 million seconds is approx 11 days..... 1 billion seconds is about 30 YEARS.


How about 11 - 12 Billion. He passed George Kaiser this year for the wealthiest Okie.

----------


## Urbanized

Take THAT Tulsa!

----------


## Urbanized

OK, just joking. I love Tulsa. Please don't let this devolve into 405 vs 918.

----------


## Teo9969

> How about 11 - 12 Billion. He passed George Kaiser this year for the wealthiest Okie.


~$15.5 Billion actually 

He's ~70% in CLR, which has a $22.6B market cap.

----------


## Bellaboo

> ~$15.5 Billion actually 
> 
> He's ~70% in CLR, which has a $22.6B market cap.


That's really something, they've had about a 15 buck run up on their stock price in the last 3 weeks and his wallet is about to explode.

----------


## Teo9969

To put it in perspective, if he owns 68% or more then he's in the Top 50 richest people in the world and Top 25 in the US. Absurd.

----------


## PhiAlpha

Also, on the subject of the Devon MLP, if past actions are any indication, Crosstex may end up moving to OKC after we have more office space. Devon closed and relocated their houston employees to OKC shortly after their building openned. They will own a large portion of Crosstex so who knows. With two potential at least partially spec office towers going up around them, they very well might relocate to OKC in the future. Maybe Crosstex is the mystery tenant that will eventually occupy the stage center tower. I definitely don't think anything is set in stone at this point .

----------


## Teo9969

What are you talking about, Phi? we're LOSING Mystery Towers...

 :Wink:

----------


## dankrutka

> Also, on the subject of the Devon MLP, if past actions are any indication, Crosstex may end up moving to OKC after we have more office space. Devon closed and relocated their houston employees to OKC shortly after their building openned. They will own a large portion of Crosstex so who knows. With two potential at least partially spec office towers going up around them, they very well might relocate to OKC in the future. Maybe Crosstex is the mystery tenant that will eventually occupy the stage center tower. I definitely don't think anything is set in stone at this point .


This would actually probably be an effective relocation strategy. Get the employees working for the Devon MLP, treat them well so they're invested in the company, and then ask them to relocate with the company they already like a lot. I have no idea how these things work so maybe that's not a good strategy.  :Wink:

----------


## bchris02

> This would actually probably be an effective relocation strategy. Get the employees working for the Devon MLP, treat them well so they're invested in the company, and then ask them to relocate with the company they already like a lot. I have no idea how these things work so maybe that's not a good strategy.


Yeah it doesn't seem like that would make sense for them to do it that way.  If they wanted the MLP in OKC they probably would put it here to begin with.  Companies usually relocate when merging with another company or consolidating into a larger tower.

----------


## catch22

The company line out of Devon lately is that they are content with what they have. Investors are looking over OKC companies with a microscope right now. They are doing the equivalent of driving the speed limit when you see an undercover cop 4 cars behind you.

----------


## amaesquire

Didn't know where else to post this, but I found this activity at the old Bank of America drive through to be interesting.

----------


## Pete

VERY interesting!

Looks like they are taking soil core samples which is one of the very first steps in engineering.

That whole block is prime territory for a new tower, as has been frequently discussed.

----------


## Pete

Here is that block:

----------


## sroberts24

Would love to see something there.

----------


## Bellaboo

I can just imagine right now, within a couple of years, we could actually have 3 towers under construction at the same time along Hudson.

----------


## Pete

> I can just imagine right now, within a couple of years, we could actually have 3 towers under construction at the same time along Hudson.


Perhaps this was part of the sell to 21c...  That the CBD is getting ready to make a strong push westward.

----------


## GoThunder

> I can just imagine right now, within a couple of years, we could actually have 3 towers under construction at the same time along Hudson.


Three? Stage Center, BOA drive-thru, .....help me out here.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Three? Stage Center, BOA drive-thru, .....help me out here.


Preftakes.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Three? Stage Center, BOA drive-thru, .....help me out here.


Preftakes block.

----------


## hoya

"Preftakes" makes me think of some sort of breakfast cereal.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I can just imagine right now, within a couple of years, we could actually have 3 towers under construction at the same time along Hudson.


That'd be way better than a FNC vs Ramsey Tower race!

----------


## lasomeday

I like the race concept!  Which tower will be announced first.... Rainey, Preftakes, or OGE?

----------


## LakeEffect

> I like the race concept!  Which tower will be announced first.... Rainey, Preftakes, or OGE?


Did I miss something? I thought OG&E's was guessed as Rainey's main tenant?

----------


## Teo9969

> Did I miss something? I thought OG&E's was guessed as Rainey's main tenant?


Enable maybe, but not OGE

----------


## BG918

Devon will likely keep the Houston (Woodlands) presence that Crosstex gives them, but will consolidate the management in OKC.

----------


## lasomeday

1) CrossTex is in Dallas
2) GeoSouthern is in Houston (Woodlands) and they are keeping them there for at least a year.... Only 40 employees.
3) Devon is moving people to Dallas to work at the CrossTex office and some to OKC... (net gain for Dallas)
4) I said OGE not Enable. I know the difference.

----------


## AP

> 4) I said OGE not Enable. I know the difference.


Snarky post.

----------


## Teo9969

> 4) I said OGE not Enable. I know the difference.


There was no confusion on what you said.

----------


## lasomeday

> Snarky post.


No, it wasn't snarky.  I was just being a dick.  Sorry guys!

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> No, it wasn't snarky.  I was just being a dick.  Sorry guys!


I thought it was playful sarcasm...because of the comment of someone else being "snarky" way back when.  I didn't see you as being a dick Curt...  Carry on ;-)

----------


## OKVision4U

ok, so when do we all think we will see some / any renderings with towers on it?  ideas?

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> ok, so when do we all think we will see some / any renderings with towers on it?  ideas?


Many think something will be released sometime this month.

----------


## OKVision4U

...and what are the estimates for Height / Stories for each?

1. Stage Center / Rainey
2.  BOA  drive thru 
3.  Preflakes

----------


## tillyato

From Steve's chat:

10:12 Comment From Nick: It looks like there was some soil testing going on at the Bank of America drive through off Hudson Ave. downtown. Do you know if there are plans for this property?

10:13 Steve Lackmeyer: Soil testing usually indicates someone is planning on doing some significant future construction.

----------


## HOT ROD

Mystery Tower #2

----------


## PWitty

> Mystery Tower #2


!!!

----------


## OKCRT

> !!!


OG&E. Bank it

----------


## Patrick

> Did I miss something? I thought OG&E's was guessed as Rainey's main tenant?


We missed the board on this one.  OGE may be planning a new tower, but it was not on the Stage Center site.  Maybe their MLP will be located in Rainey's building, but still unclear on this one.

----------


## OKCRT

> We missed the board on this one.  OGE may be planning a new tower, but it was not on the Stage Center site.  Maybe their MLP will be located in Rainey's building, but still unclear on this one.


I think we need to keep an eye/ear open on the old bank America site. Some might be "shocked" who builds there.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I think we need to keep an eye/ear open on the old bank America site. Some might be "shocked" who builds there.


Do you know who's looking at that site or are you just guessing?

----------


## adaniel

Should I consider this news "electrifying"?

----------


## OKCDrummer77

Are we "amping" up fo a big announcement?

----------


## Bellaboo

I wonder if the building will be outlined with orange LED effects ?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I wonder if you'll be able to pay bills in the lobby on the weekend?

----------


## dankrutka

So, it's going to be a wheat company that shocks wheat, huh?

----------


## kevinpate

OK, so now that SC will be OGE, hotel TBD, housing and retail, next up to freakishly obsess over is .....

----------


## OKCDrummer77

> OK, so now that SC will be OGE, hotel TBD, housing and retail, next up to freakishly obsess over is .....


(1) Bank of America site
(2) Preftakes block

----------


## warreng88

> (1) Bank of America site
> (2) Preftakes block


Again, I think we will see a Wells Fargo Tower before too long. No other info, just a hunch.

----------


## Bellaboo

> (1) Bank of America site
> (2) Preftakes block


Don't forget the triangle site over on EKG and 4th. It's been mentioned.

----------


## warreng88

> Don't forget the triangle site over on EKG and 4th. It's been mentioned.


And the area south of Stage Center.
And Core to Shore.

----------


## Pete

With little or no spec space in the Stage Center Tower and very little Class A office space available downtown, there is still tons of demand for new construction.

----------


## OKCDrummer77

> Again, I think we will see a Wells Fargo Tower before too long. No other info, just a hunch.


We know that someone was taking soil samples at the BofA site last week.  Does anyone know who that was?

----------


## jn1780

> We missed the board on this one.  OGE may be planning a new tower, but it was not on the Stage Center site.  Maybe their MLP will be located in Rainey's building, but still unclear on this one.


Famous last words. Even though their not the one building the tower and are just leasing. lol

----------


## OKCRT

> We know that someone was taking soil samples at the BofA site last week.  Does anyone know who that was?


Well I heard a rumor a couple of weeks back that we would be hearing something about OG&E soon and I thought it was prob. the old bank Site. Well now we know where OG&E will be so now we look to this site for the mystery builder. If they are doing soil samples then someone def. has some plans. So this is the new mystery site for now I guess. Who is it? I really want to know!

----------


## Snowman

So do we need to start a new mystery tower thread or is this one gonna be used for any tower speculation?

----------


## coov23

> So do we need to start a new mystery tower thread or is this one gonna be used for any tower speculation?


I think we should keep this one, but I'm biased( check who started this thread)!

----------


## shawnw

I think we should keep it but rename it to "Next Tower" or something to that effect...

----------


## bombermwc

We've still got the Preftakes block to speculate widely about.  :Smile:

----------


## OKCRT

> We've still got the Preftakes block to speculate widely about.


That's the site the mother of all towers will be built. What should we name it? Preflakes tower?

----------


## Bellaboo

From Steve over at OKC Central -

More Towers Are Coming* | News OK

He's very positive about 2 or 3 more towers, and that some are already into the development stages...

This has to be the BOA block and Preftakes block.

----------


## shawnw

Let's say for a moment that we are definitely getting 3 towers. You have the convention center hotel, presumably on the convention center block. You have a Devon expansion on the preftakes block presumably. Who is the third, presumably on the BofA site? From elsewhere in this forum, I'm under the impression Enable is staying put in Leadership, Continental is not ready to build yet, Sandridge isn't expanding any time soon, Chesapeake isn't coming downtown, AEP isn't coming downtown, Ward, Inc. isn't ready for a tower (but when they are they'd probably build on 4th/EKG), Midfirst is happy with buying up old Chesapeake space, OG&E is now accounted for, and American Fidelity is good with their new DOK digs. Who's left realistically?

(Would this be that long rumored out of state HQ relocation?)

----------


## Pete

^

New company moving in plus tons of demand for spec space.

Remember, the commercial lending market is finally coming back to life and OKC is viewed as a very safe bet these days.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Let's say for a moment that we are definitely getting 3 towers. You have the convention center hotel, presumably on the convention center block. You have a Devon expansion on the preftakes block presumably. Who is the third, presumably on the BofA site? From elsewhere in this forum, I'm under the impression Enable is staying put in Leadership, Continental is not ready to build yet, Sandridge isn't expanding any time soon, Chesapeake isn't coming downtown, AEP isn't coming downtown, Ward, Inc. isn't ready for a tower (but when they are they'd probably build on 4th/EKG), Midfirst is happy with buying up old Chesapeake space, OG&E is now accounted for, and American Fidelity is good with their new DOK digs. Who's left realistically?
> 
> (Would this be that long rumored out of state HQ relocation?)


A spec tower or housing is always a possibility. Who knows, AKM and Tom Ward love downtown, real estate, and partnered (kind of) to purchase the Kerr McGee Building, maybe they will partner for a spec or mixed use tower on the EK Gaylord and 4th location with Tapstone as a tenant. AKM wanted to office near CHK and loves to remind them that AEP is "Still Hiring" with billboards in and out of the CHK campus area...maybe Ward wants to do the same. That would be too funny..

----------


## shawnw

Pete, agreed, but I presume when OG&E moves out that space gets renovated to Class A if it isn't already and goes on the market...

----------


## HangryHippo

> Let's say for a moment that we are definitely getting 3 towers. You have the convention center hotel, presumably on the convention center block. You have a Devon expansion on the preftakes block presumably. Who is the third, presumably on the BofA site? From elsewhere in this forum, I'm under the impression Enable is staying put in Leadership, Continental is not ready to build yet, Sandridge isn't expanding any time soon, Chesapeake isn't coming downtown, AEP isn't coming downtown, Ward, Inc. isn't ready for a tower (but when they are they'd probably build on 4th/EKG), Midfirst is happy with buying up old Chesapeake space, OG&E is now accounted for, and American Fidelity is good with their new DOK digs. Who's left realistically?
> 
> (Would this be that long rumored out of state HQ relocation?)


Pete, do you have any idea at all (I'll settle for your best guess) as to who the out-of-state relocation might be?

----------


## PWitty

> Pete, do you have any idea at all (I'll settle for your best guess) as to who the out-of-state relocation might be?


And so it begins  :Cool:

----------


## David

So, quick question, what is the address of the BofA block?

----------


## shawnw

It's the 300 block of North Hudson... well, that's the parking lot. Not sure about the BofA structure itself.


Edit: 
Bank of America‎
415 Robert S Kerr Avenue
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

----------


## David

Ahh, that makes more sense. My previous searching was turning up a location two blocks east of there that made zero sense for a new tower.

----------


## Pete

Here is that "B of A" parcel:

----------


## shawnw

You think they would really take up the whole block?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Do we think the automotive shop would go bye bye if something is built on that block?  Cause I could see this being the southern half and the NE quadrant...L shaped.

----------


## bchris02

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the out of state relocation is going to be the International Olympic Committee.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I'm going to go out on a limb and say the out of state relocation is going to be the International Olympic Committee.


I smell sarcasm...

----------


## shawnw

Yeah and they're going to build a tower with all that bribe money.

----------


## Pete

> Pete, do you have any idea at all (I'll settle for your best guess) as to who the out-of-state relocation might be?


No, I really don't.  This has all been strangely quiet.

Regarding the BofA lot, remember anything that gets built downtown has to provide it's own parking.  And if it's going to be a tall building, they will need a lot.

----------


## coov23

> No, I really don't.  This has all been strangely quiet.
> 
> Regarding the BofA lot, remember anything that gets built downtown has to provide it's own parking.  And if it's going to be a tall building, they will need a lot.


So, from your sources, do you feel like it's going to be another tower; or should we just continue to focus on Preftakes property, on your opinion?

----------


## Pete

Something is happening on that BofA property because we have photos of them taking a core soil sample last week.

It's the perfect site for an office tower.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Something is happening on that BofA property because we have photos of them taking a core soil sample last week.
> 
> It's the perfect site for an office tower.


It wouldn't surprise me to see this tower begin in the same time frame that the new OG&E tower does. I think it'd be dang cool to have 2 towers going up at the same time on the same block. Being next to the MOA, this is a prime location. 

Steve had made the comment to look around at what is being done where, which I think is his reference to the main street parking garage construction. Which could play into either Preftakes or BOA sites.

----------


## Just the facts

> It wouldn't surprise me to see this tower begin in the same time frame that the new OG&E tower does. I think it'd be dang cool to have 2 towers going up at the same time on the same block. Being next to the MOA, this is a prime location. 
> 
> Steve had made the comment to look around at what is being done where, which I think is his reference to the main street parking garage construction. Which could play into either Preftakes or BOA sites.


In 2014 the official bird of downtown OKC is going to be the Construction Crane.  Rarely seen in OKC over the last 40 years it has found a plentiful feeding ground.  Downtown OKC Inc. should pick up on this.  The cranes will stretch along Sheridan from Classen in the west to Lincoln in the east (a distance of 1.5 miles).  Downtown will go from a few blocks of urban fabric to 1.5 miles.

----------


## Bellaboo

If I were laying a bet on the table, I'd go with Continental Resources as being the next major tenant for a large tower that would rival Devon. I'd say in the next 5 - 7 years. This is just my own speculation on what will drive it, which will be their massive SCOOP and Bakken plays.

This is just my thoughts, I have zero information other than what I've read about their business.

----------


## shawnw

I would have disagreed until I read the SCOOP news....

----------


## Pete

Yes, I believe they were originally interested in the Stage Center site but never bid on it.  Timing just wasn't right.

But they are blowing and going and will soon be out of space, with very little available downtown.

I imagine they will do something similar to Devon:  Build new and then sell or lease their existing building.

----------


## OKCRT

> Yes, I believe they were originally interested in the Stage Center site but never bid on it.  Timing just wasn't right.
> 
> But they are blowing and going and will soon be out of space, with very little available downtown.
> 
> I imagine they will do something similar to Devon:  Build new and then sell or lease their existing building.


Any guesses on how many stories their new digs will be?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Any guesses on how many stories their new digs will be?


I'd say about 95 .......   J/K..     

As far as anyone knows this could be several years down the road, just pure speculation at this point.

----------


## catch22

Given how the reaction to the Stage Center thread has been, maybe the emotional members should not be guessing about the height.

----------


## ljbab728

> Given how the reaction to the Stage Center thread has been, maybe the emotional members should not be guessing about the height.


Well that would certainly spoil all of the fun for the posters and their detractors.  LOL

----------


## catch22

> Well that would certainly spoil all of the fun for the posters and their detractors.  LOL


It would most certainly lead to mass suicide if their predictions did not become real.

----------


## ljbab728

> It would most certainly lead to mass suicide if their predictions did not become real.


I suspect we have lost a few already.  LOL

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> It would most certainly lead to mass suicide if their predictions did not become real.


If only they could find a building tall enough to jump from...

----------


## catch22

> If only they could find a building tall enough to jump from...


They can hold hands and jump off the Holiday Inn Express in unison.

----------


## OKCRT

> They can hold hands and jump off the Holiday Inn Express in unison.


Holiday Inn is not tall enough. We need a real skyscraper :Big Grin:

----------


## Jeepnokc

But how would we get another 5600 posts on this thread?




> Given how the reaction to the Stage Center thread has been, maybe the emotional members should not be guessing about the height.

----------


## Prunepicker

> They can hold hands and jump off the Holiday Inn Express in unison.


I remember when there was a 3 or 4 story Holiday Inn in Downtown.  I 
played some gigs there.  I believe it's called something else right now,.

Maybe it's a kind of convention center.

----------


## ljbab728

> I remember when there was a 3 or 4 story Holiday Inn in Downtown.  I 
> played some gigs there.  I believe it's called something else right now,.
> 
> Maybe it's a kind of convention center.


I believe you're thinking about the building on Main Street that is just west of the Montgomery (The old Montgomery Ward Store). I'm very sure that it was a Holiday Inn at one time but is taller than what you're thinking about.

----------


## Prunepicker

I've always thought that the Stage Center was a monstrosity.  I've gigged 
in it many times and I can tell you that it of obsolete from the very 
beginning.  It should have been built AT LEAST 4x's as big be to be 
anywhere near usable.

It's a waste.  Take some photos, tear it down and build something useful 
in it's place.  Like a parking lot or a storm drain.

----------


## josh

> In 2014 the official bird of downtown OKC is going to be the Construction Crane.  Rarely seen in OKC over the last 40 years it has found a plentiful feeding ground.  Downtown OKC Inc. should pick up on this.  The cranes will stretch along Sheridan from Classen in the west to Lincoln in the east (a distance of 1.5 miles).  Downtown will go from a few blocks of urban fabric to 1.5 miles.


Not to seem dismissive, but how do you go from a few blocks to 1.5 miles with just a handful of projects, many speculative at the moment and most, from what I've seen, on the smallish side sans the stage center tower. 1.5 miles quite a distance, especially in development terms. The densest park of the south Strip in Vegas is about 1.5 miles and that took decades to build out and that includes multi-billion dollar projects like City Centre. 

I'm genuinely curious about that proclamation.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> I believe you're thinking about the building on Main Street that is just west of the Montgomery (The old Montgomery Ward Store). I'm very sure that it was a Holiday Inn at one time but is taller than what you're thinking about.


You are correct. It was Holiday Inn. I used to play there and swim as a child.  One of my friends father was the general manager and the lived on site.

----------


## OKCRT

> You are correct. It was Holiday Inn. I used to play there and swim as a child.  One of my friends father was the general manager and the lived on site.


It was def. a Holiday Inn. Got kicked out of there one night for having a party and making too much noise. Mid-late 70s

----------


## Pete

It is this building:

Institute in Basic Life Principles (old Holiday Inn) - OKCTalk

Was a Holiday Inn until sometime in the late 80's, early 90's.

----------


## GaryOKC6

> It is this building:
> 
> Institute in Basic Life Principles (old Holiday Inn) - OKCTalk
> 
> Was a Holiday Inn until sometime in the late 80's, early 90's.


I am surprised that it has not been sold and brought back to being a hotel.  It is a good location.  I have been in there a few times and it is in sound shape.

----------


## Pete

The current owners seem to make active use of it.

Parking lot always seems full with lots of people coming and going.

They bought it after the hotel closed doors in the midst of the oil bust.

----------


## GaryOKC6

They have some affiliation with promise keepers.  They have youth groups that stay there from time to time.  They also have a meeting space.  I think that the Lions Club used it for their meeting for a while as well.

----------


## Prunepicker

> It was def. a Holiday Inn. Got kicked out of there one night for having a party 
> and making too much noise. Mid-late 70s


Hey, I was probably playing at that party.

----------


## Prunepicker

> It is this building:
> 
> Institute in Basic Life Principles (old Holiday Inn) - OKCTalk
> 
> Was a Holiday Inn until sometime in the late 80's, early 90's.


That was the Holiday Inn decades ago.  A former violin student of mine 
 lives there, now.  I don't know when it changed.  But I played there in 
the 70's and early 80's.

----------


## blangtang

Any updates on the Mystery Tower?  Height, Location, etc?

----------


## Paseofreak

I seem to recall Steve saying in his chat a few weeks ago that we'd not likely hear anything new until after the Festival of the Arts.

----------


## HotStuff80

> I seem to recall Steve saying in his chat a few weeks ago that we'd not likely hear anything new until after the Festival of the Arts.


...and when is the date for that event?  Please remember that all of us are "from" OKC... and not there now.  Thanks!

----------


## shawnw

22-27 April

----------


## LakeEffect

> 22-27 April


I'm liking your time keeping style...  :Smile:

----------


## Pete

> I seem to recall Steve saying in his chat a few weeks ago that we'd not likely hear anything new until after the Festival of the Arts.


I'm sure he was talking about Stage Center Tower.

They have all the required permits and can demolish at any time.  I'm sure they wanted to wait until after the festival for obvious reasons.

----------


## shawnw

> I'm liking your time keeping style...


That's what 17 years as a defense contractor gets you. My devices are using 24hr time as well.

----------


## catch22

> That's what 17 years as a defense contractor gets you. My devices are using 24hr time as well.


It's easier.

I do all my dates and time the same way.

----------


## Just the facts

Interesting side topic about date format.  I prefer the international style

2014/4/17 9:21:00

Time measured biggest to smallest across the board.

----------


## shawnw

> Interesting side topic about date format.  I prefer the international style
> 
> 2014/4/17 9:21:00
> 
> Time measured biggest to smallest across the board.


I use essentially that format when naming files/directories I need to be in the right order...

----------


## David

Speaking as a programmer that is the format I always use.

I always laugh to myself when I see the debates about the European standard vs. the US standard, from my perspective neither are acceptable in any situation where the format itself matters. And in situations were the format doesn't matter, then who cares.

----------


## Bellaboo

I had a system I wrote that was international, all North American dates were MM-DD-YYYY while the rest of the world was carried as YYYY-MM-DD. Bosses orders.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

So lets look at what we have

Most likely

Stage Center Tower 15 stories - downtown
Lumber Yard 43 stories - brick town

Rumored

Preftakes Block 20-40 stories
Bank of America - super tall? would be nice lol

4 possible new towers... very nice. Not to mention the possible ones out in the suburbs (possible dense development in Norman 20 stories? and one or two along Broadway Ext. 15-20 stories)

----------


## catcherinthewry

I'm not sure I'd put the Lumber Yard under Most Likely.  I'm hopeful that it will happen, but it is still in the very early stages.  Fingers crossed though.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Perhaps you're right. I keep thinking I am missing one under speculation though....

----------


## Dustin

Bank of America?  

Where did you hear that?

----------


## Teo9969

> Bank of America?  
> 
> Where did you hear that?


Bank of America sitenot Bank of America as the builder/tenant

----------


## ljbab728

> Perhaps you're right. I keep thinking I am missing one under speculation though....


Convention Center hotel?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Convention Center hotel?


That's riiiiight. Knew I was forgetting something  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Bank of America?  
> 
> Where did you hear that?


Sorry, meant the BOA drive through area....

----------


## Dustin

> Bank of America sitenot Bank of America as the builder/tenant


Ok.  That makes a whole lot more sense.

----------


## bchris02

> Steve Lackmeyer 10:40 a.m. We have a lot of in-fill projects coming throughout downtown that can often be under-estimated in their overall impact. We have some big, big deals coming. And yeah, *I'm still tracking a tower in the Central Business District beyond what's already announced for the Stage Center site*. And no, I've not seen anything to indicate the towers project on the lumber yard site in Lower Bricktown is anything but a fantasy. Whenever you have a developer with no related experience, no financing for a $100 million-plus investment and they don't own the land, I find myself hard-pressed to understand why some renderings posted on an architect's website get people excited.


This brings good news and bad news.  Good news is there is still a mystery tower beyond the Rainey Williams tower that has already been announced.  Bad news is it looks like it isn't likely going to be the Lumber Yard project.

----------


## Bellaboo

Steve mentioned today he's still tracking another Mystery Tower beside the Stage center site. I'd guess the BOA drive through, and I'd also guess Enable as the tenant. I've thought that Tom Ward would hold onto his triangle over on EKG and 3rd for his HQ after they outgrow the Mideke Bldg in 5 or so years..  just thoughts.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Steve mentioned today he's still tracking another Mystery Tower beside the Stage center site. I'd guess the BOA drive through, and I'd also guess Enable as the tenant. I've thought that Tom Ward would hold onto his triangle over on EKG and 3rd for his HQ after they outgrow the Mideke Bldg in 5 or so years..  just thoughts.


Is Enable not going into the OG&E Tower?

----------


## Pete

^

Although there was some confusion when that property on EKG changed hands, the County Asserssor site shows the owner as SandRidge Realty LLC with a mailing address of 123 RS Kerr, the SandRidge HQ.  It's now pretty clear that it's owned by SandRidge and not Tom Ward.

Also remember, the City still owns the southern half of that grassy triangle.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Is Enable not going into the OG&E Tower?


I wouldn't think so, they had to be spun off as an MLP, just like Access was spun off of Chesapeake and moved over on Lincoln. Devon spun their midstream off and it merged with Crosstex in Dallas. I think that is part of the rules, but I wouldn't bet on it. It makes sense that their lease in Leadership Square is up in about 4 years.....there has also been core samples taken over at the BOA drive thru which is just to the west of the OG& E parking garage, I think.

----------


## HangryHippo

> I wouldn't think so, they had to be spun off as an MLP, just like Access was spun off of Chesapeake and moved over on Lincoln. Devon spun their midstream off and it merged with Crosstex in Dallas. I think that is part of the rules, but I wouldn't bet on it. It makes sense that their lease in Leadership Square is up in about 4 years.....there has also been core samples taken over at the BOA drive thru which is just to the west of the OG& E parking garage, I think.


Okay, for some reason I had it in my head that Enable had signed up (for lack of a better term) to be a part of the new tower.  I wouldn't be surprised if they look at the BofA lot.  I remember the core samples being taken, but haven't seen anything else since.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> And no, I've not seen anything to indicate the towers project on the lumber yard site in Lower Bricktown is anything but a fantasy. Whenever you have a developer with no related experience, no financing for a $100 million-plus investment and they don't own the land, I find myself hard-pressed to understand why some renderings posted on an architect's website get people excited.


Interesting that Steve used the term fantasy.  Seems like I've heard that term from someone else about this project. :Tongue:   How does he know they have no financing?  Last I recall, they wouldn't return his phone calls.  So they have told someone else that they want to develop this parcel, they've done renderings and they've done plans and they have the land under contract.  These guys must have a lot of extra time and money on their hands to be wasting it like this on a fantasy. :Smile:

----------


## soonerguru

"Fantasy" seems like strong wording. Punchy even.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

If you go on their website, you'll see a ton of projects they have done.

----------


## HangryHippo

> Interesting that Steve used the term fantasy.  Seems like I've heard that term from someone else about this project.  How does he know they have no financing?  Last I recall, they wouldn't return his phone calls.  So they have told someone else that they want to develop this parcel, they've done renderings and they've done plans and they have the land under contract.  These guys must have a lot of extra time and money on their hands to be wasting it like this on a fantasy.


Didn't Steve say earlier in the chat that he had received information that led him to believe this is nothing more than leaked rumors trying to drum up interest?

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

I have a lot of respect for Steve and the work he does. HOWEVER, I get annoyed with the occasional potshots towards this site. There were quite a few in the chat today.

----------


## Reno and Walker

Thats why I have not posted in over a year... hey Big news coming in The Reno and Walker block possibly next week.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Thats why I have not posted in over a year... hey Big news coming in The Reno and Walker block possibly next week.


Awesome!

----------


## Pete

I've heard that a new tower is coming to the Preftakes block and that Bank of Oklahoma will likely be the main tenant.

Probably on the SW corner of Main and Hudson and to be built by out of state developers, not Preftakes.

Not sure of the height but somewhere around 30 stories.  Also unsure of the timing.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I've heard that a new tower is coming to the Preftakes block and that Bank of Oklahoma will likely be the main tenant.
> 
> Probably on the SW corner of Main and Hudson and to be built by out of state developers, not Preftakes.
> 
> Not sure of the height but somewhere around 30 stories.  Also unsure of the timing.


Wow!  That would be awesome as well.  It sounds like some exciting stuff is right around the corner.  This news along with the NBA playoffs provide a lot of excitement and momentum to OKC!

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Thats why I have not posted in over a year... hey Big news coming in The Reno and Walker block possibly next week.


Big news like bigger than other mystery "tower" news? Sorry...gotta add fuel to the fire ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## bchris02

Maybe a Burj Khalifa replica is being built here.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Maybe a Burj Khalifa replica is being built here.


Like a mini mini mini junior?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## adaniel

> I've heard that a new tower is coming to the Preftakes block and that Bank of Oklahoma will likely be the main tenant.
> 
> Probably on the SW corner of Main and Hudson and to be built by out of state developers, not Preftakes.
> 
> Not sure of the height but somewhere around 30 stories.  Also unsure of the timing.


Does BOK have that many employees in OKC? Is this a HQ relocation situation?

----------


## Pete

> Does BOK have that many employees in OKC? Is this a HQ relocation situation?


They have a decent amount of space in BOK Plaza but it's not huge.

I believe they would be consolidating from elsewhere in the City and expanding in general.

I'm very sure their HQ would stay in Tulsa, but there may be other tenants already lined up for the new tower.

----------


## soonerguru

George Kaiser just made a big play with the Thunder. One wonders if he is trying to boost his profile in OKC. Maybe he's tired of trying to help Tulsa only to be rebuffed by the tea-bagging loons.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Thats why I have not posted in over a year... hey Big news coming in The Reno and Walker block possibly next week.


Is this news related to Pete's comment?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I've heard that a new tower is coming to the Preftakes block and that Bank of Oklahoma will likely be the main tenant.
> 
> Probably on the SW corner of Main and Hudson and to be built by out of state developers, not Preftakes.
> 
> Not sure of the height but somewhere around 30 stories.  Also unsure of the timing.


So that would put it around the height of the Chase Tower(excluding spiral if there is one)?

----------


## OKVision4U

> Thats why I have not posted in over a year... hey Big news coming in The Reno and Walker block possibly next week.


What kind of news... another Tower ? ... or CVS adding another store? ... or the kind of news that will make Dallas & KC jealous?

----------


## Pete

> What kind of news... another Tower ? ... or CVS adding another store? ... or the kind of news that will make Dallas & KC jealous?


I believe this is related to the large property he has for sale at the intersection that coincides with his screen name.

----------


## OKVision4U

"Alrighty then". thanks Pete.

----------


## shawnw

So if BOK builds a tower on Preftakes at that location, what does Devon do when they need a second tower?

----------


## Pete

> So if BOK builds a tower on Preftakes at that location, what does Devon do when they need a second tower?


BOK would only be a tenant.  There would be room for others.

----------


## shawnw

What happens to the current BOK tower?  I was under the impression it was renovated somewhat recently...

----------


## Pete

I'm sure BOK wouldn't have a problem leasing out their old space, especially with at least two years lead time.

----------


## lasomeday

> I'm sure BOK wouldn't have a problem leasing out their old space, especially with at least two years lead time.


BOK already leases out a lot of the space.  Most of the building that I know of is leased out.  I think BOK only has three floors taken up.  The top two floors are a very nice law firm.

----------


## Pete

Remember, Rainey Williams owns BOK Plaza in OKC.

BOK leases several floors in that building but they have several other tenants.

Perhaps they are looking to take an ownership interest in this new building?

----------


## coov23

> George Kaiser just made a big play with the Thunder. One wonders if he is trying to boost his profile in OKC. Maybe he's tired of trying to help Tulsa only to be rebuffed by the tea-bagging loons.


Why do you make everything political? Stay on topic, please.

----------


## hoya

> BOK would only be a tenant.  There would be room for others.


Perhaps Devon wants a different company to be the anchor tenant, so it's not so obvious that they're behind any new tower.  They can say that the tower was for BOK and they just ended up leasing space in it.

----------


## Pete

The point about George Kaiser buying into the Thunder is a good one.

Also, we had heard rumors about BOK upping their presence in OKC some time ago, so all this seems to be fitting together.

----------


## OKVision4U

> BOK would only be a tenant.  There would be room for others.


... have they selcted an architect ?

----------


## Pete

> ... have they selcted an architect ?


I don't know.

----------


## OKVision4U

I hope they get a firm that really knows how to make a statement.

----------


## hoya

I'd be fine with a big box like Chase Tower as long as it gets built.

----------


## bchris02

> I'd be fine with a big box like Chase Tower as long as it gets built.


Agree, although it would likely be more modern and aesthetically pleasing than the Chase Tower.  Cotter Ranch Tower is actually a staple of 1970s architecture and you don't see very many being built in that style.

----------


## Bellaboo

Okay,
Potential sites that seem to be in play for towers here.

1) Stage Center (OG&E)
2) Northeast corner of Preftakes block (Bank of OK)
3) BOA drive through - North of MOA (Possibly Enable Midstream)
4) Convention Center with Hotel
5) Reno & Walker ?

The west and south side of downtown could be 'under construction' for the next few years.

----------


## jccouger

Man, this site really experienced mystery tower fatigue. We get some really exciting news on a new lead and there is barely any chatter about it. I blame the OGE tower, which was the original "mystery tower", that fell well below expectations on this problem.

----------


## bchris02

> Man, this site really experienced mystery tower fatigue. We get some really exciting news on a new lead and there is barely any chatter about it. I blame the OGE tower, which was the original "mystery tower", that fell well below expectations on this problem.


Totally agree.  I know at least I found myself so underwhelmed by the Rainey Williams tower that its difficult to get as excited about other mystery towers.  It wasn't all hype either; early rumors from Steve seemed to support a 30-40 story tower and OKC ends up with a 14-story midrise that may yet be scaled back further.

----------


## Anonymous.

Yup. Until plans are displayed that show the most likely product. The excitement just isn't there. Devon spoiled us.

----------


## Bellaboo

It's just a crying out loud shame that we could be on the verge over the next 5 years to have multiple, as in 2 or 3 or 4 major projects going on at the same time..... and we're disappointed.

----------


## Anonymous.

I think disappointed is the wrong term. I think more_ leary_ is the correct verbage.

----------


## jccouger

I don't think people are disappointed in what could happen, I think people are just a lot more hesitant to raise their hopes after what happened with the Rainey tower. People literally spent years on this website tracking the would be stage center tower, only to have have all that dedication & time spent on a tower that was worth no where near the amount of energy spent waiting for it to unfold. There is just a lot more "wait & see" approach going on with these other "mystery towers" due to this fact.

----------


## HangryHippo

Because it's completely unlikely to happen, and on the small chance it does, it will most likely disappoint.  We've been teased about corporate relocations and skyscrapers and big projects and we saw renderings for a disappointing corporate mid-rise.  So I'm unapologetically skeptical that we see any of these big projects actually happen, much less at a high level.

----------


## bchris02

Yeah its not people are disappointed its they are skeptical, and rightly so.  Nobody would have ever guessed that the Rainey Williams tower would end up being such a small deal considering the hype and rumors out there.

----------


## Bellaboo

Ye of little faith. I think you all are probably right, best be a little cautious or hesitant and not be disappointed. But this thread is all about speculationn news and ideas.

I had a feeling when Rainey said they would design the building to run North and South (wide), that it wouldn't be as tall. It's also a matter of economics.

----------


## shawnw

We're not disappointed, we just have that "pics or it didn't happen" attitude, which is tempering and totally fine.

----------


## Teo9969

> Ye of little faith. I think you all are probably right, best be a little cautious or hesitant and not be disappointed. But this thread is all about speculationn news and ideas.
> 
> I had a feeling when Rainey said they would design the building to run North and South (wide), that it wouldn't be as tall. It's also a matter of economics.


For me, it's not about height…it's about spending barely $100M dollars on one of the Top 3 most important sites available in all of downtown…The convention center is going to beat that for crying out loud.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> Man, this site really experienced mystery tower fatigue. We get some really exciting news on a new lead and there is barely any chatter about it.


I know! I feel like I am taking crazy pills that I didn't wake up to five new pages in this thread!

----------


## OKVision4U

> Okay,
> Potential sites that seem to be in play for towers here.
> 
> 1) Stage Center (OG&E)
> 2) Northeast corner of Preftakes block (Bank of OK)
> 3) BOA drive through - North of MOA (Possibly Enable Midstream)
> 4) Convention Center with Hotel
> 5) Reno & Walker ?
> 
> The west and south side of downtown could be 'under construction' for the next few years.


... and the Lumber Yard ( 43 ) story Tower & ( 2 ) Mid-rise Towers.

----------


## adaniel

Some of you on this thread=

----------


## Bellaboo

> ... and the Lumber Yard ( 43 ) story Tower & ( 2 ) Mid-rise Towers.


Not sure if the Lumber Yard has a lot of substance, for that matter, it's all speculation until it's coming out of the ground.

----------


## PhiAlpha

I also feel like there are a lot more exciting general developments going on now that are taking peoples minds off the potential of another tower being built. There may not actually be a great deal more projects going on now than 2 years ago when this thread started, but it sure seems that way.

----------


## Pete

The lending market has changed pretty dramatically in just the last couple of years.

Up until recently, they only big office projects that could get done were those that were either self-financed (Devon) or that had all the space pretty much pre-leased.  Virtually no spec space, which is why there is suddenly so little vacancy in the Class A category.

The combination of the loosing financial market and the growing confidence in local economies makes it at least feasible to build something in advance of the anticipated demand.

Particularly important when it takes 2-3 years to get these buildings open for business.

----------


## MFracas84

I don't think people want to be negative but I have to admit that over the last couple of years, I've seen promises of this new building and that new building. Two years later, zero evidence other than "a friend of a friend said" that any buildings other than OG&E. I think most of us are hopeful but just do not allow our hopes to get raised over comments from someone's brother's babysitter. I've decided to take everything on this thread as speculation just as the title says until I see a press conference.

----------


## Pete

I think something other than Stage Center is getting ready to pop soon...  The chatter and info is definitely picking up.

----------


## bombermwc

Yeah well we even heard Steve create a whole video for the Oklahoman that was based on rumor rather than fact. And it wasn't even about the OG&E structure. All the so-called "buzz" means nothing. If buzz was it, then we'd have a Preftakes block tower already built before Devon. 

People tend to confuse business moves with construction. They often forget that, like Continental, moving usually means leasing existing space, not building a new tower. So we hear about some company wanting to open an office here, people blow it up to "they're moving their HQ here and gonna build a 50 story building". Not only is that not what any of those companies ever said, but extremely unlikely in any situation.

----------


## Pete

> All the so-called "buzz" means nothing. If buzz was it, then we'd have a Preftakes block tower already built before Devon.


Then stop reading this thread and wait for an official announcement.

This thread was specifically created to consolidate all the various rumors and bits of information.

----------


## bchris02

> I don't think people want to be negative but I have to admit that over the last couple of years, I've seen promises of this new building and that new building. Two years later, zero evidence other than "a friend of a friend said" that any buildings other than OG&E. I think most of us are hopeful but just do not allow our hopes to get raised over comments from someone's brother's babysitter. I've decided to take everything on this thread as speculation just as the title says until I see a press conference.


True.  It's the same way with other developments as well as retailers possibly coming to OKC.  Chatter will begin in OKCTalk years before something is officially announced.  A lot of people who are in the know leak information to this site even if its in its very early stages.  Some of it comes to fruition, some does not.

----------


## BillyOcean

not sure if it means anything or not, but i always use the atm at The BOA site just north of museum cafe.  i went there yesterday to deposit a check and the machine is now gone.

----------


## shawnw

there's been buzz about something going on that site for some time.

----------


## shawnw

(unrelated: I do wish we'd get a "consolidated drive thru ATM site" for downtown so that so much real-estate wasn't taken up by them...)

----------


## Pete

> Some of it comes to fruition, some does not.


Wanted to point out when I post something, it comes from a trusted source.

It's important to distinguish between fun talk and conjecture (which is great and valuable in it's own right) and the things I post personally.

If I'm just thinking out loud or speculating, I'll make that clear.  If I report something, I stand behind it and if there is any element of uncertainty, I state those qualifiers as well.


I keep a list of all the news we've broken first, and it's now at 200+ items.

----------


## Pete

> (unrelated: I do wish we'd get a "consolidated drive thru ATM site" for downtown so that so much real-estate wasn't taken up by them...)


Those facilities date back to the days where OK banking laws limited a drive-thru to only a short distance from your bank (the old anti branch banking legislation).

Unfortunately, most those downtown locations are small and hard to develop as stand-alone properties.

I don't think the service is really even needed, it's a simple matter of finding a higher and better use for the property.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> Wanted to point out when I post something, it comes from a trusted source.
> 
> It's important to distinguish between fun talk and conjecture (which is great and valuable in it's own right) and the things I post personally.
> 
> If I'm just thinking out loud or speculating, I'll make that clear.  If I report something, I stand behind it and if there is any element of uncertainty, I state those qualifiers as well.
> 
> 
> I keep a list of all the news we've broken first, and it's now at 200+ items.


Shame on you for being so reasonable and well-grounded... and shame on you for allowing people to be disappointed even when no guarantees are made... and shame on you for having a forum where people must read every thread — even those that disappoint, disgust and distress them — and forcing them to regurgitate again and again all the negative things they must point out.

----------


## jccouger

> I keep a list of all the news we've broken first, and it's now at 200+ items.


Post that list Pete!!!

----------


## Pete

> Post that list Pete!!!


I'm saving it for the right time.   :Smile:

----------


## Anonymous.

Anniversary!

----------


## Pete

I'm far from shy but have always been uncomfortable with self-promotion and since this site is in many ways tied to me, I don't like to blow our own horn too loudly.  I've only recently started using Twitter and Facebook to promote items of interest, for example.

On the other hand, I keep very good notes and records which come in handy when proper credit is denied or usurped or when someone wants to play games with the truth.

And when I say records, I mean a comprehensive database, not a bunch of post-its and undocumented conversations.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

You mean like when other people say they broke the Tapstone Energy location?

----------


## Pete

A better example is the large distribution center that went to Owasso and ultimately revealed itself to be Macy's.

One way to look at that is to say that I had assumed and posted that I thought it was Amazon and that proved to be incorrect.

But the truth is that if we had not posted about this subject -- and we ultimately got the Macy's part right long before it was in the papers -- that apart from a few people connected with economic development, no one would never have even known they looked at OKC and how close we were to landing it, to the point of having a specific location identified.

Look it up...  Other than OKCTalk there was no mention of this project anywhere, that is until there was an official announcement in the Tulsa paper.  And even then it was never mentioned OKC was one of the finalists, let alone the various details that we documented.


So, you can either give us credit for putting together an amazing amount of information and detail that never would have come out otherwise -- and doing so months in advance of any news release -- or you could fixate on not getting absolutely everything correct until the story evolved.


There are plenty of things that have followed a similar path and I'm 100% fine with taking that approach and being honest about it all along the way.

I've just learned the hard way to document things in great detail.

----------


## OKCRT

> A better example is the large distribution center that went to Owasso and ultimately revealed itself to be Macy's.
> 
> One way to look at that is to say that I had assumed and posted that I thought it was Amazon and that proved to be incorrect.
> 
> But the truth is that if we had not posted about this subject -- and we ultimately got the Macy's part right long before it was in the papers -- that apart from a few people connected with economic development, no one would never have even known they looked at OKC and how close we were to landing it, to the point of having a specific location identified.
> 
> Look it up...  Other than OKCTalk there was no mention of this project anywhere, that is until there was an official announcement in the Tulsa paper.  And even then it was never mentioned OKC was one of the finalists, let alone the various details that we documented.
> 
> 
> ...



I think that Rainey Williams let the wind out of the sails with his project. 1st he tells us a 28 story tower would be built. Well that wasn't really tall enough for the masses as most wanted 35+. But then he comes out and shows us that he isn't really building a tower,as I don't consider what he is building a tower. And now it seems that most people are not falling for anymore bait but rather just sitting back and waiting and if it happens,it happens.

----------


## zookeeper

> And when I say records, *I mean a comprehensive database*, not a bunch of post-its and undocumented conversations.


You are nothing if not organized. You amaze me with this. What do you use to keep all that information? Any specific software (like OneNote) or just roll-your-own?

----------


## bombermwc

> Then stop reading this thread and wait for an official announcement.
> 
> This thread was specifically created to consolidate all the various rumors and bits of information.


You just shot yourself in the foot. My point was, I agree with the type of info you put here. It's qualified and has grounding. What I think is stupid, is the random crap that has no basis that people pull from their butt and then it blows up into something fake that people start peeing their pants over. 

There's honest journalistic interest, and there's smoke-up-the-butt stuff. I just prefer my information to have some grounding outside of hearsay.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> You just shot yourself in the foot. My point was, I agree with the type of info you put here. It's qualified and has grounding. What I think is stupid, is the random crap that has no basis that people pull from their butt and then it blows up into something fake that people start peeing their pants over. 
> 
> There's honest journalistic interest, and there's smoke-up-the-butt stuff. I just prefer my information to have some grounding outside of hearsay.


Then do what Pete says, "stop reading this thread and wait for an official announcement" in the journalism institution(s) you choose to rely on.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> You just shot yourself in the foot. My point was, I agree with the type of info you put here. It's qualified and has grounding. What I think is stupid, is the random crap that has no basis that people pull from their butt and then it blows up into something fake that people start peeing their pants over. 
> 
> There's honest journalistic interest, and there's smoke-up-the-butt stuff. I just prefer my information to have some grounding outside of hearsay.


How did he shoot himself in the foot? He told you to not check this thread and wait for an official announcement since this thread is mainly about speculation and you yourself just said that you don't want to hear speculation, you want grounded information. It makes perfect sense to me. 

A large portion of the stuff in this thread is fantasy (for a lack of better wording) and for the sake of your honest journalistic interests, he's advising you that most of this thread is piecing things together, which may or may not be accurate or come true.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I think mwcbomber wants a BS Mystery Tower thread and a Credible Information Mystery Tower thread so we don't have to drown in all the fantasies...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## BDP

This thread was named to include "speculation, news, and ideas". Those are three different things, but clearly all are welcome.

If there's any issue, it may be that some have a hard time distinguishing between the three.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Dear lord..I don't have an issue, lol. I'm merely pointing out that that may be his reasoning. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## PhiAlpha

> How did he shoot himself in the foot? He told you to not check this thread and wait for an official announcement since this thread is mainly about speculation and you yourself just said that you don't want to hear speculation, you want grounded information. It makes perfect sense to me. 
> 
> A large portion of the stuff in this thread is fantasy (for a lack of better wording) and for the sake of your honest journalistic interests, he's advising you that most of this thread is piecing things together, which may or may not be accurate or come true.


For over two years now the thread has been labeled Mystery Tower *(speculation, news, and ideas)*; the reasoning behind coming here and complaining about the lack of facts or the rampant speculation is beyond me. It's semi annoying that it has had to be explained so many times when it's right there in the title.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Thats why I have not posted in over a year...* hey Big news coming in The Reno and Walker block possibly next week*.


Reno & Walker -   where are you ?

How about some cryptic tease ?

----------


## bombermwc

Hey, don't get your panties in a twist people. I think you're putting more effort in commenting on my view of the thread than into discussing buildings.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> Hey, don't get your panties in a twist people. I think you're putting more effort in commenting on my view of the thread than into discussing buildings.


Pot. Kettle. Black.

And you came back to this thread that cause you so much distress... glutton for punishment, I guess.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Hey, don't get your panties in a twist people. I think you're putting more effort in commenting on my view of the thread than into discussing buildings.


Since you're a man of facts, we're just getting the facts straight.  :Smile: 

Back to your regularly scheduled speculation.

----------


## G.Walker

I think the fascination for towers is downtown OKC has dropped. Think this has much to do with underwhelming announcements. We still have yet to have a major tower announcement since Devon tower finished. Even though we have had numerous articles, rumors, and speculation to elude to such, nothing still has came to fruition. Most answers from sources now are very vague, like, "we should hear something soon", or "I expect to hear tower announcement next year", or "I expect we will see a new tower build in the next 5 to 10 years", lol. That is as vague as you can get, nothing substantial or solid. I for one have jumped off the tower train a long time now. When it happens it happens...and I have realized most sources really don't know what's going on or have any more inside information that the next person.

----------


## Mississippi Blues

Yeah, I'd say I'm off the tower train as well. I still want to see towers and love the thought of having more projects like the conceptual lumber yard project, but I find myself more and more rooting for closer to mainland earth projects like LIFT, Metropolitan, Steel Yard, and so on.

----------


## SOONER8693

> I think the fascination for towers is downtown OKC has dropped. Think this has much to do with underwhelming announcements. We still have yet to have a major tower announcement since Devon tower finished. Even though we have had numerous articles, rumors, and speculation to elude to such, nothing still has came to fruition. Most answers from sources now are very vague, like, "we should hear something soon", or "I expect to hear tower announcement next year", or "I expect we will see a new tower build in the next 5 to 10 years", lol. That is as vague as you can get, nothing substantial or solid. I for one have jumped off the tower train a long time now. When it happens it happens...and I have realized most sources really don't know what's going on or have any more inside information that the next person.


Agree 100%. I believe the Devon tower was an abberation. Apparently OKC just got lucky with the Devon tower. We've been given the "chicken little" runaround too many times now.

----------


## OKCRT

> Agree 100%. I believe the Devon tower was an abberation. Apparently OKC just got lucky with the Devon tower. We've been given the "chicken little" runaround too many times now.


Rainey Williams rained on our parade and let all the wind out of our sails and popped the balloon and just killed all future speculation for a real tower downtown.

After he fabricated the facts about the tower and when the real facts came out it seemed to kill enthusiasms around here. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice,shame on me. Thank you Mr. Williams

Now please sell the stage center property to a developer that has a real vision for downtown okc and move your project up north somewhere before it's too late..

----------


## bombermwc

I'm with G. Walker

----------


## Just the facts

> I think the fascination for towers is downtown OKC has dropped.


This is what is for me.  I have zero interest any floor count above 10.

----------


## lasomeday

> This is what is for me.  I have zero interest any floor count above 10.


I have 0 interest in any floor count lower than 20.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I have 0 interest in any floor count lower than 20.


So if four projects make up 21 stories then you're interested? ;-)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5

----------


## AP

> I have 0 interest in any floor count lower than 20.


No one expects you to. You live in Yukon, so downtown livability doesn't really matter to you.  :Wink:

----------


## lasomeday

> No one expects you to. You live in Yukon, so downtown livability doesn't really matter to you.


For the millionth time!  I LIVE IN OKC!  And if I can't see it from my office window, it doesn't matter to me.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> For the millionth time!  I LIVE IN OKC!  And if I can't see it from my office window, it doesn't matter to me.


I sense hostility...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5

----------


## lasomeday

He knows its all about my view.  I see trees at home and downtown from my office, so I want my office view to improve.

----------


## AP

> For the millionth time!  I LIVE IN OKC!


Oh, I could have sworn it was Mustang.

----------


## lasomeday

> Oh, I could have sworn it was Mustang.


I wish.  Mustang is very nice.

----------


## OKCRT

> I wish.  Mustang is very nice.


And growing. Was driving down 1-52 the other afternoon and it was bumper to bumper. Maybe Mustang needs a tower to call their own.

----------


## Spartan

Let's talk about Mustang

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Mustang Brewing is on Meridian

----------


## Just the facts

> Let's talk about Mustang


Mustang could use a little urbanization.  How about a nice little Main St with some 3 to 5 story building built out to the sidewalk, a few roundabouts, some shopping (besides the Walmart), and 3 or 4 sidewalk cafes.  In short - there is no 'there' there.  If someone said "take me to the center of Mustang" would there be anything worth seeing when they got there?

----------


## ljbab728

> Mustang could use a little urbanization.  How about a nice little Main St with some 3 to 5 story building built out to the sidewalk, a few roundabouts, some shopping (besides the Walmart), and 3 or 4 sidewalk cafes.  In short - there is no 'there' there.  If someone said "take me to the center of Mustang" would there be anything worth seeing when they got there?


Actually, Kerry, I moved to Mustang in the late 60's.  Downtown was on Main street south of Highway 152 and I walked that area often.  It's changed of course for better or worse.  When I was there, everyone who moved there hoped they were the last ones.  Mustang will never be urban, so that is a pipe dream.  Speculation about a mystery tower in Mustang will get you nowhere,   :Smile:

----------


## Martin

ok... let's stay on topic, people.  the topic isn't mustang. -M

----------


## ABryant

What about the rumor that the mystery tower will actually be a 50 story tower that is actually a sculpture of a mustang?

----------


## Urbanized



----------


## Plutonic Panda

So what happened to that news on Reno and Walker(I think?). Someone said something like "possibly big news coming this week" and I was curious if anything came out of it.

----------


## Bellaboo

> 


Here's a fact - the artist that built this Broncho at DIA died in the process - it actually fell on him during the process leading to his death.

----------


## Urbanized

Yep. Sad story. The original sculpture - the model for this one - sits inside the Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art in Norman.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Here's a fact - the artist that built this Broncho at DIA died in the process - it actually fell on him during the process leading to his death.


And for a long time there was a smaller scale replica of it in front of the Fred Jones Art Museum in Norman.


...Urbanized beat me to it.

----------


## bchris02

Steve Lackmeyer: Am I worried that if I confirm talks are getting serious for a tower at Main and Hudson that this chat will get crazy again?

----------


## Anonymous.

He posted the same story/information almost one year ago exactly about the Preftakes tower. 

Gotta see something to get excited anymore.


However, last week Steve said he isn't sure about the Preftakes tower rumor. Then today says that. So perhaps some new development took place this past week.

----------


## Pete

One big change on the Preftakes block:  They are in the process of forcing everyone out at the old Hotel Black by this summer.  That will leave the City building and Coney Island as the only open buildings on that entire block.

Something is about to happen there, but it could still develop very slowly.

But I really do think something is set to pop there soon...  Just too much smoke everywhere lately.

----------


## maverickbroncho

Someone in the chat also stated their source said it'd be within 10-15 floors of Devon. Steve responding by calling the source interesting. All cryptic and not first hand, but still intriguing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## G.Walker

> Steve Lackmeyer: Am I worried that if I confirm talks are getting serious for a tower at Main and Hudson that this chat will get crazy again?


Yea, yea, yea...we've heard this same song and dance for years now, with nothing solid to ride on. We have been fed the same updates for years, with nothing substantial coming to fruition. I wouldn't put any stock in any sources at this point, when it happens it happens.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> Yea, yea, yea...we've heard this same song and dance for years now, with nothing solid to ride on. We have been fed the same updates for years, with nothing substantial coming to fruition. I wouldn't put any stock in any sources at this point, when it happens it happens.


Also Steve engineered the Serge Ibaka announcement just to set us up for a let-down. Typical OKC.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Also Steve engineered the Serge Ibaka announcement just to set us up for a let-down. Typical OKC.


DailyThunder is now reporting Serge may play in game 3.  Let's hope so.

----------


## DoctorTaco

> DailyThunder is now reporting Serge may play in game 3.  Let's hope so.


I know. All promises until the day they cancel the plan. Typical OKC. This kind of thing would never happen with the Charlotte Hornets. :P

----------


## Pete

> Yea, yea, yea...we've heard this same song and dance for years now, with nothing solid to ride on. We have been fed the same updates for years, with nothing substantial coming to fruition. I wouldn't put any stock in any sources at this point, when it happens it happens.


Then stop reading and posting on this thread.

It's really that simple.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Someone in the chat also stated their source *said it'd be within 10-15 floors of Devon*. Steve responding by calling the source interesting. All cryptic and not first hand, but still intriguing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Let's speculate a bit - I could see where this floor count could be realistic due to the footprint of the corner of Main & Hudson. It's not like the Stage Center site where they can stretch it out for half a block.

----------


## G.Walker

> Then stop reading and posting on this thread.
> 
> It's really that simple.


I am entitled to posting my own opinion, hence the title of this thread.

----------


## BrettM2

> I am entitled to posting my own opinion, hence the title of this thread.


And he's entitled to tell you to stop posting nothing of substance. You don't have to listen but I'll sure as hell second him.

----------


## dankrutka

> Steve Lackmeyer: Am I worried that if I confirm talks are getting serious for a tower at Main and Hudson that this chat will get crazy again?


Anyone have a link to the chat transcript. I can't find it on their website?

----------


## Bellaboo

> Anyone have a link to the chat transcript. I can't find it on their website?


OKC Central Chat transcript, May 23, 2014 | News OK

----------


## Pete

I think I mentioned this elsewhere, but I've heard from an excellent source that Pickard Chilton (of Devon Energy Center fame) will be the architect for the rumored BOK/Devon tower at Main & Hudson.

That's a very exciting sign...

Also, the footprint in this area is pretty small so anything built is likely to be somewhat tall.  35-40 stories is a good estimate IMO.


This is a project P/C is doing for Northwestern Mutual in Milwaukee.  It's a 32-story tower that is bridged into a historical structure as well:

----------


## hoya

I'd really love it if they could keep the auto hotel, even if it's just the exterior and they redo everything inside.  It's such a cool looking building and I think it would be a tremendous save.

Any word on what might go on the south part of that block, where the Lunch Box was?  I'd presume a parking structure.

----------


## Pete

^

There will have to be a large parking structure on that site, I presume along Sheridan with retail on the ground level.

----------


## Spartan

How do you know BOK and DVN would team up?

Smells of Burns.

----------


## Pete

> How do you know BOK and DVN would team up?


Because I've heard it from more than one credible source.

----------


## DelCamino

> ^
> 
> There will have to be a large parking structure on that site, I presume along Sheridan with retail on the ground level.


Pete, not so sure I agree.  Unless a large parking facility has been announced, or your source is telling you, why would they need it.  The City is providing a new 500+(?) garage right across the street.  I've long thought this garage has been part of the long term/behind the scene plans for pending development along Main.  There's not been demand in that area to warrant that capacity unless they've been planning for new structures all along.

----------


## Pete

Del, the spaces in that new garage are pretty much spoken for...  Downtown garage occupancy is well over 100%.

No way is there anywhere close to enough spaces for a 30-40 story building plus whatever else will be built / renovated on that block.

Plus, Devon is already out of parking spaces in their massive garage.


And finally, I've heard from a couple of different people there will be a sizable garage on this block.

----------


## DelCamino

^
Thanks for clarifying, Pete.

----------


## Spartan

> Because I've heard it from more than one credible source.


What kind of credible source? (I'm not asking who)

----------


## Pete

> What kind of credible source? (I'm not asking who)


The same people who have provided tons of advance info that has thus far been 100% correct.

I'm not saying this is a done deal, just saying it's in progress.

----------


## Spartan

Well are these design people, finance people, government officials, energy people...

----------


## Pete

> Well are these design people, finance people, government officials, energy people...


Yes.   :Smile: 

Construction, design, government agencies, energy companies, and other entities I can't mention.

----------


## mugofbeer

> Here's a fact - the artist that built this Broncho at DIA died in the process - it actually fell on him during the process leading to his death.


AND it has glow in the dark red eyes............

----------


## ljbab728

> Yes.  
> 
> Construction, design, government agencies, energy companies, and other entities I can't mention.


Good answer Pete.  That sounds exactly like what Steve often says to similar questions.

----------


## HOT ROD

Im thinking this new tower could have frontage that stretched along Main Street encompassing the theatre and adjacent shops to the OKC office tower. That'd be a nice wide tower without infringing on the Auto Hotel or Hotel Black, and a parking garage could be built on the Sheridan frontage between Hotel Black and the Bus Station - if so, this would be tremendous infill and appropriate reuse of that block!! And if it is 40-storeys at say 17 feet, that would make a nice 700 foot tower, maybe more with a spire on top considering P/C is the architect.

Oklahoma's 2nd tallest - I'm super excited.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I used to get excited about this sort of thing since it's how I ended up finding this forum in the first place but I've joined the ranks of those who say show me first, then I'll get excited.

----------


## SOONER8693

> I used to get excited about this sort of thing since it's how I ended up finding this forum in the first place but I've joined the ranks of those who say show me first, then I'll get excited.


Ditto.

----------


## Jeepnokc

This thread is like buying a lottery ticket.  Each new ticket purchased give you a day or two of dreaming what if?  Then it doesn't pan out but we still buy another ticket for the next go around because the moments of dreaming and hoping are kind of exciting.  Each new rumor brings us some hope and What If? dreaming until it doesn't pan out and we do it all over again with the next one.

edit......but you know.....sometimes those lottery tickets do hit and pay off

----------


## Fantastic

> but you know.....sometimes those lottery tickets do hit and pay off


Not always a jackpot, but sometimes you get a little something to help you out...

----------


## Jeepnokc

> Not always a jackpot, but sometimes you get a little something to help you out...


Very true...may only be a 14 story building instead of 30.   :Smiley122:

----------


## kevinpate

I've decided that, for a spell anyway, I'm going to take the dollar movie approach to downtown development. 
Sure, I'll hear a lot of spoilers and won't be the first in the know about nothing, but if there's a flop,  I won't have 
a lot of time invested that I can't get back.

Oh, and I'm bringing my own candy too. Pfffffft.   :Smile:

----------


## modernism

I wish we could get something like this:

New Office Tower in Downtown Houston Awarded LEED V4 Platinum ? a New LEED Category | Realty News Report



Capitol Tower’s sustainable features include:
 a high-performance building faade that significantly reduces solar gain;
 daylight harvesting technology that can significantly reduce energy usage;
 90 percent access to daylight and views for tenants;
 a garage with occupancy lighting sensors and a green rooftop;
 alternative vehicle charging stations;
* a rainwater collection system for reuse in landscape irrigation and water closets;
bicycle racks, lockers and showers to encourage commuting.*

----------


## Spartan

We don't need rainwater collection and reuse systems as much as Houston, and if I had my druthers the LEED scale would change to reflect each urban ecosystem.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

That's the Pickard/Chilton tower in the background right?

----------


## modernism

> That's the Pickard/Chilton tower in the background right?


Yes, BG Group Place, 46 Stories, completed 2011, LEED Platinum

----------


## Just the facts

> We don't need rainwater collection and reuse systems as much as Houston, and if I had my druthers the LEED scale would change to reflect each urban ecosystem.


The LEED neighborhood rating would deduct points for having a parking garage.  Getting an award for environmental design that requires the users to drive a car to get to it is like a woman buying a $10,000 ring that is marked down 5% and she braggs about how much money she saved.

----------


## Spartan

I think it's also important that LEED works in not just NYC but also the Springfields.

----------


## lasomeday

> I think something other than Stage Center is getting ready to pop soon...  The chatter and info is definitely picking up.


It's been two weeks?  Anything new?

----------


## Pete

Nope, I haven't heard anything new.

When I said 'soon', I meant in the next few months.

----------


## Jesseda

Here we go again.  :Doh:

----------


## bombermwc

Well I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say "here we go again", since we know that the development will happen. The question with this one is, when will we see things actually start? When will all the court bull settle enough to get the wrecking ball in? The sooner the better for me. I, like others, just wish they would have pushed the height up about twice the amount. I can appreciate OG&E not wanting to become a leasing company, but it's a bit short-sighted too. If you need a new building, it means you probably need some growing room. If you add some space on to the building now, you'll have that room to grow into later. Can't exactly add another 10 floors on later if you need them...lol.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Here we go again.


Basically y'all need to check back on this thread come end of October. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5

----------


## Rover

> Nope, I haven't heard anything new.
> 
> When I said 'soon', I meant in the next few months.


Pete...don't you know by now, "soon" means "by midnight" on this board.   Short term = this week.  Medium term = this month.  Long term, anything more than 30 days.   :Big Grin:

----------


## David

More like on the internet as a whole.

----------


## modernism

I know its hard to swallow, but the fact remains, downtown OKC has no major developments announced so far in 2014. Everything coming to fruition now like The Metropolitan, LIFT, and the GE Research Center we knew about several months ago, and some almost a year. Somebody in yesterdays chat with Steve asked what happened to major corporate relocations that was supposed to happen for downtown, he brought up the GE Research Center and Continental Resources, lol, that was reaching. Continental Resources has been downtown for a few years, and we knew about GE Research Center for a while now, and its technically not downtown.

What happened to all the rumored big corporate relocations that were supposed to take place downtown? Where are these major office towers, game changers for downtown? 

Yes we had some small, infill projects, but when we start using energy to discuss gas stations and restaurants, something is wrong, lol. The momentum as slowed, lets hope the second half 2014 is better than the first, its been quiet so far.

----------


## bchris02

> I know its hard to swallow, but the fact remains, downtown OKC has no major developments announced so far in 2014. Everything coming to fruition now like The Metropolitan, LIFT, and the GE Research Center we knew about several months ago, and some almost a year. Somebody in yesterdays chat with Steve asked what happened to major corporate relocations that was supposed to happen for downtown, he brought up the GE Research Center and Continental Resources, lol, that was reaching. Continental Resources has been downtown for a few years, and we knew about GE Research Center for a while now, and its technically not downtown.
> 
> What happened to all the rumored big corporate relocations that were supposed to take place downtown? Where are these major office towers, game changers for downtown? 
> 
> Yes we had some small, infill projects, but when we start using energy to discuss gas stations and restaurants, something is wrong, lol. The momentum as slowed, lets hope the second half 2014 is better than the first, its been quiet so far.


I know it.  Going into December, Steve hinted that tons of game-changing developments would be announced that month but it never materialized.  I understand deals take time though, but it seems as if there has been more negative recently than positive.  Hopefully whatever was planned was just delayed and will be announced before the end of 2014.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I know it.  Going into December, Steve hinted that tons of game-changing developments would be announced that month but it never materialized.  I understand deals take time though, but it seems as if there has been more negative recently than positive.  Hopefully whatever was planned was just delayed and will be announced before the end of 2014.


What "negative" has there been? There just hasn't been more additional information announced yet, no one has cancelled or killed a project so far this year. The only real negative news downtown recently announced was last year with the Stage Center Tower being less than expected and that "negative" news will still likely result in a 16 story building and hotel being built.

----------


## catch22

Bchris... Sometimes the market needs a breather. A lot of these investment about to start construction or are in construction are done by a small group of developers. They can't do 10 projects each at once. They also want to see how these new projects perform financially and how the market responds before making the next investment.

----------


## soonerguru

I'm more concerned with the failure of a "major international company" to announce an OKC presence than I am the lack of new towers downtown. There has been discussion of this for about three years. There was also a rumored competition between OKC and Houston for an HQ. Has this been lost? 

Steve didn't hint about any new corporate announcements in his chat Friday. This has me more concerned than anything.

----------


## HOT ROD

I'm worried.

----------


## bchris02

> I'm more concerned with the failure of a "major international company" to announce an OKC presence than I am the lack of new towers downtown. There has been discussion of this for about three years. There was also a rumored competition between OKC and Houston for an HQ. Has this been lost? 
> 
> Steve didn't hint about any new corporate announcements in his chat Friday. This has me more concerned than anything.


I am pretty sure the competition between OKC and Houston was for Enable which ended up going to OKC.

----------


## adaniel

> I'm worried.


I'm not. This notion that $50 million+ developments come every week like they were at one point last year is pretty ridiculous. 

In fact, I am more pleased by the fact that lots of smaller projects, many by out of state clients, are happening rather than just a few big projects. Shows more people have "skin in the game" in DT. Also, it tends to be a rule that most be REITs don't like to make big investments in the 1st or 2nd quarter. The 2nd quarter ends in June.

As an aside, maybe because I work in that industry, but it kind of blows my mind a bit what a collective shrug the GE Research Center announcement reaction was. Few people fail to realize what a big deal this is.

----------


## Pete

We've got 100 projects on our Urban Development summary and the only reason there aren't more is because the site software limits the number of photos in any one post.  And we're talking just about the downtown area.

Just goes to show how important tall buildings are to the psyche of a community, even the relatively well-informed members.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Steve's business chat:




> 11:15
> Steve Lackmeyer: We will be hearing an update soon. But as for designs on the OGE Energy Corp. tower, the next thing we will hear is about the architect hired for the job, not the final designs.
> 
> 11:14
> Comment From Martin  
> Any new news on the pending towers? OGE, Main & Hudson, others? Do you think we will hear announcements or see final designs from OGE soon?

----------


## coov23

> Steve's business chat:


He did say the tower on main and Hudson was more likely to happen, than not.

----------


## Pete

He also said "more diversity may be coming to downtown".

I still believe Bank of Oklahoma is involved in that project.

----------


## shawnw

How are we defining diversity?  You mean sector wise?

----------


## Pete

> How are we defining diversity?  You mean sector wise?


Yes, something other than energy.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> He did say the tower on main and Hudson was more likely to happen, than not.


Good! I thought I had read it as "was more likely not to happen", but I'm glad that is not the case.

It better be 50 stories or I will be pissed.

----------


## HangryHippo

Is the Main & Hudson project the same mystery tower that's been rumored for the Preftakes block or are we looking at two projects?

----------


## Pete

> Is the Main & Hudson project the same mystery tower that's been rumored for the Preftakes block or are we looking at two projects?


The same.

----------


## HangryHippo

> The same.


Muchas gracias.

----------


## bchris02

> It better be 50 stories or I will be pissed.


What if it's 40 stories?

I agree that it better be skyline-changing.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> What if it's 40 stories?
> 
> I agree that it better be skyline-changing.


I was joking because Shawnw has been going ham on me lately for wanting taller buildings haha...

The taller the better for me with this. If it's 40, I won't be disappointed. As long as it's taller than this low-midrise we know as the OG&E building. I don't like how short it is where it's at. This is kind of the same deal, but if I had to place a 50+ story tower, it would be on the OG&E site rather than this site.

----------


## shawnw

Yes, we like to razz PluPlan for wanting all buildings to be 50 stories minimum with 10-lane highways going from each workers window directly to their garage at home in the burbs.  :-)


I hope you appreciate my satirical hyperbole PluPlan...

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Yes, we like to razz PluPlan for wanting all buildings to be 50 stories minimum with 10-lane highways going from each workers window directly to their garage at home in the burbs.  :-)
> 
> 
> I hope you appreciate my satirical hyperbole PluPlan...


oh yes sir

Every highway should look like this 



every interchange like this



from this



to this



 :Wink:

----------


## coov23

> Good! I thought I had read it as "was more likely not to happen", but I'm glad that is not the case.
> 
> It better be 50 stories or I will be pissed.


His quote was, " at this point it's more likely, than not, to happen."

----------


## coov23

What are you hearing,Pete? The same? On pace to actually be a reality?

----------


## Pete

> What are you hearing,Pete? The same? On pace to actually be a reality?


Yes, but it's all pretty preliminary at this point.

----------


## RodH

> oh yes sir
> 
> to this


The garages are too small!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The garages are too small!


What you don't see, are the underground garages beneath them  :Wink:

----------


## TheTravellers

> He also said "more diversity may be coming to downtown".
> 
> I still believe Bank of Oklahoma is involved in that project.


Any more details than that?  I may be able to poke around BOK and see what's going on...

----------


## Pete

> Any more details than that?  I may be able to poke around BOK and see what's going on...


I've heard that BOK is looking to up their presence in OKC and move their existing employees along with the new ones into a new tower.

----------


## TheTravellers

> I've heard that BOK is looking to up their presence in OKC and move their existing employees along with the new ones into a new tower.


Thanks, I'll ask around when I get back to work on Thu...

----------


## soonerguru

> I've heard that BOK is looking to up their presence in OKC and move their existing employees along with the new ones into a new tower.


Makes sense now why George Kaiser is making his presence known in OKC. Good for OKC.

----------


## Pete

Yep.

Remember he bought Tom Ward's share of the Thunder.

----------


## bchris02

When you say "existing employees" are you talking about Tulsa employees or just their current OKC operations?

----------


## Pete

> So is this basically a corporate relocation from Tulsa?


No.

I believe their substantial HQ will stay in Tulsa, they will just be adding more jobs and perhaps even related businesses in OKC.

----------


## Spartan

Keep in mind BOK is much larger than BOK.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

It would be nice to see BOK relocate to OKC

----------


## adaniel

> It would be nice to see BOK relocate to OKC


Tulsa would throw the house at George Kaiser to keep BOK up there. I think the chance is slim they would even consider moving a significant chunk of their ops.

With that in mind, it would be awesome if they moved their oil and gas division to OKC, considering that yours truly tried big time to get a job up there with them. He's a 918er through and through and is pretty much bankrolling _A Gathering Place_ with little public help, so its very interesting that George would choose to invest in the Thunder.

----------


## pickles

> It would be nice to see BOK relocate to OKC


This is fantasy land.

----------


## Pete

> This is fantasy land.


Right, and to be clear absolutely no one is implying this is going to happen.

If anything, they will likely expand their presence in Tulsa as well.

Kaiser is more involved in Tulsa than any one person is involved in OKC; he darn sure isn't going to move his company out of there.

----------


## bchris02

> Tulsa would throw the house at George Kaiser to keep BOK up there. I think the chance is slim they would even consider moving a significant chunk of their ops.
> 
> With that in mind, it would be awesome if they moved their oil and gas division to OKC, considering that yours truly tried big time to get a job up there with them. He's a 918er through and through and is pretty much bankrolling _A Gathering Place_ with little public help, so its *very interesting that George would choose to invest in the Thunder.*


I agree.

----------


## sgt. pepper

I think he will try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa. I will be very surprised if he builds in OKC. I just do not see him having ANY interest in Oklahoma City.

----------


## bchris02

> *I think he will try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa.* I will be very surprised if he builds in OKC. I just do not see him having ANY interest in Oklahoma City.


I didn't want to be the one to say it but that was the thought that came to mind.  Chances he could actually be successful at it though are slim to none.  He may at least try to get some real games played in Tulsa.

Given the attitude that most Tulsans have about OKC, it would surprise me if he had any interest in the betterment of this community at all.

----------


## Urbanized

> I think he will try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa...


Hahahaha good one...

----------


## catch22

And here come the bears!

----------


## Bellaboo

> I didn't want to be the one to say it but that was the thought that came to mind.  Chances he could actually be successful at it though are* slim to none.  He may at least try to get some real games played in Tulsa.*
> 
> Given the attitude that most Tulsans have about OKC, it would surprise me if he had any interest in the betterment of this community at all.


Not even 'slim' here. You don't understand the NBA and the success that the Thunder have had in OKC if this would even cross your mind. Clay Bennet is the majority owner, a minority owner (Kaiser) will not sway games to be played in the BOK. The 66'ers and 1 pre-season game is about all Tulsa will see of the Thunder, along with the rotational training camp scrimmage every 3 or 4 years. Do you know how many years running the Thunder have sold out the 'Peake ? Keep in mind that as cool as the BOK arena looks, it doesn't compare amenity wise to the CHK arena. I'll go ahead and say it...the Thunder will never relocate to Tulsa, not in the next 50 years or so.
Not to sound obnoxious, but hard facts speak loudly in the realm of the NBA. It's important to the Thunder to keep what presence they can in Tulsa though, with what they already do.

----------


## Pete

Speaking of the arena, they are will be completely rebuilding the club level during the offseason and are also installing a new LED ribbon signage system.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Not even 'slim' here. You don't understand the NBA and the success that the Thunder have had in OKC if this would even cross your mind. Clay Bennet is the majority owner, a minority owner (Kaiser) will not sway games to be played in the BOK. The 66'ers and 1 pre-season game is about all Tulsa will see of the Thunder, along with the rotational training camp scrimmage every 3 or 4 years. Do you know how many years running the Thunder have sold out the 'Peake ? Keep in mind that as cool as the BOK arena looks, it doesn't compare amenity wise to the CHK arena. I'll go ahead and say it...the Thunder will never relocate to Tulsa, not in the next 50 years or so.
> Not to sound obnoxious, but hard facts speak loudly in the realm of the NBA. It's important to the Thunder to keep what presence they can in Tulsa though, with what they already do.


LOL at anyone that actually thinks the Thunder moving to Tulsa would ever be a remote possibility.

----------


## Swake

> Right, and to be clear absolutely no one is implying this is going to happen.
> 
> If anything, they will likely expand their presence in Tulsa as well.
> 
> Kaiser is more involved in Tulsa than any one person is involved in OKC; he darn sure isn't going to move his company out of there.


There’s a rumor going around Tulsa that Kaiser is looking to build a new BOK tower on the south side of downtown Tulsa. Remember the current BOK Tower is part of The Williams Center which is owned by and is the headquarters for Williams, along with Williams spinoffs Magellan Midstream and WPX Energy. BOK today has lots of office space outside of downtown that could be moved. Kaiser’s energy Company, Kaiser Francis isn’t currently downtown either. 

There is a lot more to BOK than Bank of Oklahoma, BOK Financial (BOKF) is the parent company of Bank of Oklahoma and owns a lot more banks than just Bank of Oklahoma. 

I'm not sure I really buy this particular rumor, Kaiser's not really into building vanity projects, which a big office tower would be. But then I was shocked when he bought part of the Thunder. 

I don't think he has designs on moving the The Thunder, but I am wondering if he is getting his feet wet in team ownership before bidding on some other professional team.

----------


## Pete

> There’s a rumor going around Tulsa that Kaiser is looking to build a new BOK tower on the south side of downtown Tulsa.


FWIW, I have heard the same thing from the sources telling me BOK is involved in a future OKC tower.

I've heard Kaiser wants to build (or at least be apart of building) in both cities.

----------


## bchris02

^^ That makes sense.  I wouldn't be surprised if Tulsa eventually tried to get an NHL team or something and Kaiser's partial ownership in the Thunder may pave the way for that possibility.  I am just guessing though as I am not very knowledgeable about how sports franchise ownership/relocations happen.

----------


## BG918

The issue as I understand it is that the BOK Tower in Tulsa has very low vacancy with Williams, Magellan and WPX also headquartered in it, as well as large operations of several other companies including Newfield Exploration and accounting giant Ernst & Young.  All are growing operations in Tulsa and making acquisitions such as WPX buying Access Midstream.  No new tower announcements have been made but it's similar to when before Devon announced their intentions for the same reasons, they ran out of space in and wanted to consolidate in one tower.

----------


## betts

> I think he will try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa. I will be very surprised if he builds in OKC. I just do not see him having ANY interest in Oklahoma City.


This is a joke, right? Anyone who would actually think that does not understand how the NBA works, or the fact that Kaiser is only one of multiple owners, all the rest of whom live in OKC.

----------


## Swake

> The issue as I understand it is that the BOK Tower in Tulsa has very low vacancy with Williams, Magellan and WPX also headquartered in it, as well as large operations of several other companies including Newfield Exploration and accounting giant Ernst & Young.  All are growing operations in Tulsa and making acquisitions such as WPX buying Access Midstream.  No new tower announcements have been made but it's similar to when before Devon announced their intentions for the same reasons, they ran out of space in and wanted to consolidate in one tower.


That's all correct, but one clarification. Williams through it's Williams Partners (WPZ) subsidiary is buying out Access, not WPX Energy, WPX is a wholly separate company that was spun off from Williams in 2012 and WPX now has market cap of almost $5 billion all on it's own.

----------


## shavethewhales

> FWIW, I have heard the same thing from the sources telling me BOK is involved in a future OKC tower.
> 
> I've heard Kaiser wants to build (or at least be apart of building) in both cities.


Hmm, could these be two different potential projects, or a question of where BOK will consolidate? We've been discussion Kaiser's dedication to Tulsa, and of course there will be lots of BOK offices in both cities either way, but it seems like if they want to build a new tower somewhere then it would become the central office of _something_. Would they move something out of Tulsa for the OKC tower, or just expand somehow? Just trying to wrap my head around this since it seems like a more complex organization than just some oil company.

I currently work in Tulsa in a midrise building of which 7 or so floors belong to BOK's mortgage division. It's definitely an older building, and you can tell their operations are spread out throughout Tulsa. I'm sure this isn't their only location for mortgage activity. I've been thinking they needed a new building for awhile now.

----------


## Pete

> Hmm, could these be two different potential projects, or a question of where BOK will consolidate?


From my understanding, they would be two separate projects.

----------


## soonerguru

> I think he will try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa. I will be very surprised if he builds in OKC. I just do not see him having ANY interest in Oklahoma City.


Wrong. He has an interest in this state, and OKC happens to be more powerful in the overall scheme of things. He is a very sincere guy -- he's not a corporate raider type -- and the league wouldn't allow it in the first place. 

Kaiser is about to step it up and seriously invest in our city and people are greeting this with trollish comments like yours? Come on.

----------


## soonerguru

> LOL at anyone that actually thinks the Thunder moving to Tulsa would ever be a remote possibility.


Yes, and whoever is suggesting this is also suggesting that someone with Kaiser's brilliant business mind would be stupid enough to believe that. Give the guy some credit.

----------


## BG918

> That's all correct, but one clarification. Williams through it's Williams Partners (WPZ) subsidiary is buying out Access, not WPX Energy, WPX is a wholly separate company that was spun off from Williams in 2012 and WPX now has market cap of almost $5 billion all on it's own.


You're right, meant WPZ.  WPX is the E&P spinoff from Williams that is mostly focused on natural gas and NGL.  Magellan is also a spinoff of Williams and has grown on its own into one of the larger midstream energy companies, along with Williams and fellow Tulsa companies ONEOK (which spun off its gas utility into ONE Gas and just moved into 150,000 SF in First Place Tower downtown), SemGroup, Rose Rock and Explorer Pipeline.

Regarding Kaiser and BOK, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see a larger OKC presence.  They are the largest Oklahoma bank, and one of the largest in the region with subsidiary banks in Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona.

----------


## hoya

I'm sure Kaiser loves Tulsa.  I'll bet he loves his company more, though.  Having a larger presence in OKC would be beneficial for them, given how the city has prospered and increased in national visibility the last few years.  Imagine seeing a BOK tower on the aerial view at night during the NBA playoffs.

----------


## Pete

I've heard for a while Kaiser wants to build a bigger presence in OKC but his heart will always be in Tulsa, so perhaps this is why he may be pursuing a new building up there as well.

Pretty sure what is happening here is that Devon is helping to orchestrate this (they have always been behind Preftakes) and that Kaiser / BOK may take the lead, with Devon keeping a low profile to deflect any possible fallout from activist stockholders.  Devon already is taking space in other buildings and a new tower will take 2-3 years to bring on-line.

I really think this is starting to firm up.  Also pretty darn sure Pickard Chilton will be the architect, so you know it will be first class.

Don't want people to end up disappointed, so let's call it 25-30 stories and hope it's actually a bit taller.

----------


## hoya

I'm guessing 6 months out, before we hear any official announcements?  I know these timelines are guesswork.

----------


## HotStuff80

Message from someone who no longer resides in OKC:  diversify, diversify, diversify...   :Yourock:

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Message from someone who no longer resides in OKC:  *diversify, diversify, diversify*...


What does an old, old wooden ship from the Civil War have to do with the mystery tower?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## sgt. pepper

> I think he will try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa. I will be very surprised if he builds in OKC. I just do not see him having ANY interest in Oklahoma City.


You guys are ridiculous, one mention of Tulsa and every body goes berserk. READ MY POST! Did I say I think the Thunder will relocate to Tulsa??????...NO! I stand by every word in my comment. Now, for everybody who know e v e r y t h I n g about the NBA....have at it.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> You guys are ridiculous, one mention of Tulsa and every body goes berserk. READ MY POST! Did I say I think the Thunder will relocate to Tulsa??????...NO! I stand by every word in my comment. Now, for everybody who know e v e r y t h I n g about the NBA....have at it.


More people were responding to your actual comment, "I think he will try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa." If anything (or anyone) is ridiculous, it is _that_ statement. He is a much smarter person than you give him credit for if that is what you think. And I stand by every word of this comment.

----------


## betts

> You guys are ridiculous, one mention of Tulsa and every body goes berserk. READ MY POST! Did I say I think the Thunder will relocate to Tulsa??????...NO! I stand by every word in my comment. Now, for everybody who know e v e r y t h I n g about the NBA....have at it.


"I think he will try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa."  I repeat my question.  Is this a joke?  Precisely how would he try to relocate the Thunder to Tulsa?  It has nothing to do with some overreaction to the word "Tulsa".  I would have asked the same thing if you stated he would try to relocate the Thunder to Wichita or Kansas City.  Many of us have learned A LOT about the NBA over the past 10 years.  Looks at what has happened with Chris Hansen in Seattle.  Relocating a team to any city is incredibly difficult.  When the majority of Thunder owners live in Oklahoma City, it is difficult to think they would be excited about a move.  The NBA would be decidedly unexcited about the move. There are five major investors, one of whom is now Kaiser and three minor investors.  I may even be wrong about this because Peter Scaramucci may have increased his ownership share - the group is not very forthcoming about information like that. It's hard to act unilaterally to move the team.  Kaiser likely holds a 15% share and so I suspect any vote to do so in the ownership group would go against him.  Clay Bennett is on the NBA relocation committee, so I suspect he would be able to influence the committee to vote against a move as well, even in some pipe dream scenario where Kaiser convinced a majority of the other owners to vote with him to move the team.  It is basically a ridiculous idea.

----------


## Spartan

Kaiser is bldg a new Tulsa skyscraper? He already has a 2/3 WTC replica there.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> What does an old, old wooden ship from the Civil War have to do with the mystery tower?


"I gave that a 'like'"

----------


## Pete

I've now heard that Hines (the construction manager that handled the entire Devon project) will be managing the construction of the proposed BOK Main/Hudson tower.

I'm also hearing it will be about 800,000 square feet.  For perspective, Oklahoma Tower is about 570,000 and Chase a little less than that.

Also, even if all the buildings on Main between Hudson and the City-owned Main Place were demolished (which seems to be the most likely scenairo), the building footprint and floor size would be somewhat limited.

So, I believe we are looking at a 30 to 40 story building although, obviously, all of this is still pretty fluid.

----------


## okclee

You heard it here 1st. Great work once again Pete!

----------


## Bellaboo

I'd guess closer to 40 than 30, with that much square footage.

It'd be pretty cool to have this site and the SC site going up simultaneously.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I've now heard that Hines (the construction manager that handled the entire Devon project) will be managing the construction of the proposed BOK Main/Hudson tower.
> 
> I'm also hearing it will be about 800,000 square feet.  For perspective, Oklahoma Tower is about 570,000 and Chase a little less than that.
> 
> Also, even if all the buildings on Main between Hudson and the City-owned Main Place were demolished (which seems to be the most likely scenairo), the building footprint and floor size would be somewhat limited.
> 
> So, I believe we are looking at a 30 to 40 story building although, obviously, all of this is still pretty fluid.


They must be pretty far into this if Pickard Chilton and Hines are already lined up.....

----------


## Pete

And I'm still hearing that Pickard Chilton will be the architect.

So, this is basically the main players for the Devon Energy Center project teaming up once again.


I fully realize that this could end in disappointment but for now I'm going to fantasize about another world-class P/C tower on that site, which could bring almost the perfect balance to the skyline in terms of height, placement and design.

----------


## okclee

I guess it is just a coincidence that the Stage Center is days away from being demolished as you are sharing this information.  It seems like the Stage Center should be the ones that are further along in the process not the Main St/Hudson developers.

----------


## warreng88

> I've now heard that Hines (the construction manager that handled the entire Devon project) will be managing the construction of the proposed BOK Main/Hudson tower.
> 
> I'm also hearing it will be about 800,000 square feet.  For perspective, Oklahoma Tower is about 570,000 and Chase a little less than that.
> 
> *Also, even if all the buildings on Main between Hudson and the City-owned Main Place were demolished (which seems to be the most likely scenairo), the building footprint and floor size would be somewhat limited.*
> 
> So, I believe we are looking at a 30 to 40 story building although, obviously, all of this is still pretty fluid.


Pete, are you hearing where a parking garage would be built? I know Preftakes said he never intended to tear down the Union Bus Station, but that area seems like the likely place for it.

Note: After I typed that, I realized this would be built across the street from the new parking garage. Still curious.

----------


## Pete

I don't believe the Bus Station will be demolished in any scenario, nor will the old Hotel Black (1 North Hudson) or Main Place.

The fate of the old Auto Hotel is less clear but I would expect it to stay.

So, the Auto Hotel could serve as parking but even with that and the new Main Street Garage to the north, they will still need more for a building that size.

I believe the land east of the Bus Station and the old Lunch Box building will see some sort of parking structure with perhaps more offices or residential as well.

----------


## OkieNate

Pete! Well done again sir! Would it be possible for you or one of our great contributors to make a shaded diagram of the block with potential footprints of the hopefully new tower?!

----------


## Pete

> I guess it is just a coincidence that the Stage Center is days away from being demolished as you are sharing this information.  It seems like the Stage Center should be the ones that are further along in the process not the Main St/Hudson developers.


I think Stage Center Tower is pretty far along.

You would think that before they start to lay waste to the Stage Center they would reveal more info about their plans, like the architect and perhaps even new renderings.  So, that may be coming sooner rather than later.

And remember, for anything to happen at Main/Hudson they would have to file for multiple demolition permits and there is going to be another big outcry over that, so that process could take a while and we are not even to that point yet.

----------


## Bellaboo

An interesting scenario is the economic impact created by two large overlapping construction projects. This could be greater than when the Devon tower was built. If they happen concurrently at least.

----------


## Pete

^

Plus the convention center, which will be going at the same time and in the same general area.

Maybe the CC hotel, too.

And while the entire Stage Center project will come in around $100 million, 21c just down the road will be $50 million just for the hotel, with other projects likely to happen around it.

----------


## Bellaboo

Lets do the math. Oklahoma Tower is 570,000 sq ft. At 32 floors, that means the square footage per floor is apx 18,000.

At 800,000 sq ft, that means if the floor plate is close to the Oklahoma Tower, then were looking at 44 floors..

44 floors by 17 feet average floor height (Devon averages 17 feet) - has it at 748 feet tall.

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## bchris02

> And remember, for anything to happen at Main/Hudson they would have to file for multiple demolition permits and there is going to be another big outcry over that, so that process could take a while and we are not even to that point yet.


Do you think there will be that big of a fight over those buildings?  Especially if a 40-story tower is going in their place?

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## Bellaboo

> Do you think there will be that big of a fight over those buildings?  Especially if a 40-story tower is going in their place?


Maybe this is the real reason they are closing One North Hudson in August. I believe the construction offices were in that building when Devon was built. But due to the proximity, they just might not want anyone in it ?

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## CuatrodeMayo

I'll say it again: It wouldn't be that difficult to retain and restore the historic facades while constructing a tower behind. Here in Seattle, I know of several recent buildings constructed behind old facades.

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## bchris02

> I'll say it again: It wouldn't be that difficult to retain and restore the historic facades while constructing a tower behind. Here in Seattle, I know of several recent buildings constructed behind old facades.


Do you think that is a battle worth fighting?

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## HangryHippo

> I'll say it again: It wouldn't be that difficult to retain and restore the historic facades while constructing a tower behind. Here in Seattle, I know of several recent buildings constructed behind old facades.


This is what I'd like to see done as well, but doubt we see that in this instance.

----------


## okclee

> I'll say it again: It wouldn't be that difficult to retain and restore the historic facades while constructing a tower behind. Here in Seattle, I know of several recent buildings constructed behind old facades.


Has Pickard Chilton ever been involved in this type of development, saving historic facades?

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## CuatrodeMayo

> Do you think that is a battle worth fighting?


In OKC, no.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> An interesting scenario is the economic impact created by two large overlapping construction projects. This could be greater than when the Devon tower was built. If they happen concurrently at least.


Maybe that is why OG&E has yet to release any new renderings because they'll want to release real renderings vs. conceptual at nearly the same time as Main/Hudson as to attempt to defuse public perception of an energy company spending more than $100,000,000 for new digs.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5

----------


## Spartan

> I've now heard that Hines (the construction manager that handled the entire Devon project) will be managing the construction of the proposed BOK Main/Hudson tower.
> 
> I'm also hearing it will be about 800,000 square feet.  For perspective, Oklahoma Tower is about 570,000 and Chase a little less than that.
> 
> Also, even if all the buildings on Main between Hudson and the City-owned Main Place were demolished (which seems to be the most likely scenairo), the building footprint and floor size would be somewhat limited.
> 
> So, I believe we are looking at a 30 to 40 story building although, obviously, all of this is still pretty fluid.


Devon Energy Center is 1.5 m sf right?

----------


## Spartan

> I'll say it again: It wouldn't be that difficult to retain and restore the historic facades while constructing a tower behind. Here in Seattle, I know of several recent buildings constructed behind old facades.


By "not that difficult" to do you mean very easy. It would elevate any project to truly world class status, to incorporate the beautiful storefront remnants of OKC's Main Street.

This IS a battle worth fighting, if only anyone cared to. Preservation Oklahoma ought to be meeting w Devon NOW to proactively guide the plans.

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## Pete

> Devon Energy Center is 1.5 m sf right?


Just the tower (not the rotunda, garden wing, etc.) is 1.42 million SF over 49 floors, so 29,000 SF per floor.  All in, it's a total of 1.9 million.  The parking structure is almost another million square feet.

That's a large average floorplate which likely could not be accommodated at Main & Hudson.

20,000 SF per floor is more likely for this spot (in my estimation), which would yield 40 floors.

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## HangryHippo

Pete, do you have any idea who's looking at the Bank of America lot then if this is BOK/Devon and OG&E is Stage Center?

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## hoya

My guess would be Continental Resources.

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## Bellaboo

> My guess would be Continental Resources.


Or possibly Enable.

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## bchris02

So is there a third mystery tower beyond Stage Center Tower and Main/Hudson?

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## HangryHippo

> So is there a third mystery tower beyond Stage Center Tower and Main/Hudson?


No, probably not.  There was just some drilling that took place on this lot that led to a little speculation and I was just curious about what Pete might have heard about it.  Relax, young'n.

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## hoya

Potentially.

Having 3 towers built at the same time along Hudson would make a big impression upon people.  Add the convention center and a possible hotel and that's a lot of construction downtown.

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## HangryHippo

> My guess would be Continental Resources.





> Or possibly Enable.


Selfishly, I'd like to see Enable build something on the BofA lot and then Continental build on either the NW or SW corner lots of 4th and Broadway.  Then, with those parcels knocked out, I'd love to see something like Dallas' Museum Tower built on the SE corner of 4th and Broadway.  Now that would be awesome.

----------


## Pete

> Pete, do you have any idea who's looking at the Bank of America lot then if this is BOK/Devon and OG&E is Stage Center?


I haven't heard anything about that site in a while.

There were soil samples taken a few months ago (as was posted by someone else here) but then things seemed to go quiet.  Or I should say, I personally haven't heard anything new.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Selfishly, I'd like to see Enable build something on the BofA lot and then Continental build on either the NW or SW corner lots of 4th and Broadway.  Then, with those parcels knocked out, I'd love to see something like Dallas' Museum Tower built on the SE corner of 4th and Broadway.  Now that would be awesome.


My fantasy is that CLR would build just South of the SC site. This gives them courtside to the MBG.

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## Pete

I believe the Hamm divorce is due to wrap up this summer and it seems most the big legal questions have been answered (like Harold keeping almost all his Continental stock).

So, with that dust about to settle, perhaps CLR will get serious about a new HQ.

They are really pushing Crowe Dunlevy out the door...  They already have filled the building permits to rework the four floors they current occupy for their own use.  If it takes at least 2 and closer to 3 years to bring a new building on line, they are going to be overflowing into buildings all over downtown by then.

Ironically, this was exactly the situation with Devon before they built their complex.  CLR is likely to land in some of the Class B space Devon vacated.

----------


## Pete

Assuming Stage Center Tower and the Main/Hudson site, there are three other prime tower spots that leap to mind:

1. As Bellaboo mentioned, the area directly south of Stage Center
2. NW corner of Hudson and RS Kerr (old B of A drive-thru and surrounding parcels)
3. 4th & Broadway triangle, currently owned by SandRidge and certainly attainable

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## HangryHippo

> My fantasy is that CLR would build just South of the SC site. This gives them courtside to the MBG.


That would also be very nice.

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## BG918

Having towers all around the Myriad gardens would be awesome, and what I think will happen someday.  I still wish the convention center was not going to be at the south end but maybe it could be a plus if the design is good ie lots of glass fronting the park.

----------


## Pete

^

And we get a nice, tall convention center hotel.

Then, we can get busy redeveloping the Cox Center block and really surround the park with quality development.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> In OKC, no.


I disagree.

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## OKCDrummer77

> Having towers all around the Myriad gardens would be awesome, and what I think will happen someday.  I still wish the convention center was not going to be at the south end but maybe it could be a plus if the design is good ie lots of glass fronting the park.


IIRC, one of the reasons (excuses?) given for the Stage Center Tower being shorter than we anticipated was that they didn't want a large tower preventing the sunlight from reaching the plant life in the Myriad Gardens.

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## HOT ROD

Does the sun shine from the East in OKC? If not, then I don't think the height of the tower makes a difference.

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## Just the facts

> IIRC, one of the reasons (excuses?) given for the Stage Center Tower being shorter than we anticipated was that they didn't want a large tower preventing the sunlight from reaching the plant life in the Myriad Gardens.


If someone said that then they were full of crap.

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## OKCDrummer77

> If someone said that then they were full of crap.


Yeah, I didn't buy it, either. I knew that excuse wouldn't hold up in the light of day (see what I did there?)

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

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## ljbab728

> If someone said that then they were full of crap.


Very true.  That has been discussed and debunked here several times in the past.

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## BDP

> In OKC, no.


Yeah, futile exercises get old.

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## soondoc

I love the thought of 2-4 more towers in the near future.  Can someone with the knowledge and skills to give us a glimpse of what all this may look like, please do so.  It would be great to see what the downtown area would look like with the OGE Tower, the 32-40 story mystery tower on Hudson street, the Bricktown Tower/Towers, Convention Hotel, and perhaps the other mystery tower on 4th and RS Kerr Street.   Please let us all see what our skyline would look like from various views!  I can hardly wait for all this to happen.  Could you also do any new hotels/construction in Bricktown as well that I didn't mention?

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## Pete

> I love the thought of 2-4 more towers in the near future.  Can someone with the knowledge and skills to give us a glimpse of what all this may look like, please do so.  It would be great to see what the downtown area would look like with the OGE Tower, the 32-40 story mystery tower on Hudson street, the Bricktown Tower/Towers, Convention Hotel, and perhaps the other mystery tower on 4th and RS Kerr Street.   Please let us all see what our skyline would look like from various views!  I can hardly wait for all this to happen.  Could you also do any new hotels/construction in Bricktown as well that I didn't mention?


That was done a while ago by one of our posters let me see if I can dig them up, as I was just thinking about this as well.

----------


## warreng88

> I love the thought of 2-4 more towers in the near future.  Can someone with the knowledge and skills to give us a glimpse of what all this may look like, please do so.  It would be great to see what the downtown area would look like with the OGE Tower, the 32-40 story mystery tower on Hudson street, the Bricktown Tower/Towers, Convention Hotel, and perhaps the other mystery tower on 4th and RS Kerr Street.   Please let us all see what our skyline would look like from various views!  I can hardly wait for all this to happen.  Could you also do any new hotels/construction in Bricktown as well that I didn't mention?


Don't forget about a tower on the site of the current convention center. Would love that NW/C to be a tower, wrapped with or on top of a parking garage and the street grid restored.

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## bchris02

So thus far, this is where we stand in terms of mystery towers.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Certain: Stage Center Tower
Likely: Hudson/Main
Possible: Convention Hotel, BoA Site
Not Likely: Bricktown Towers
Pure Speculation: Cox center site tower

----------


## Pete

> So thus far, this is where we stand in terms of mystery towers.  Correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Certain: Stage Center Tower
> Likely: Hudson/Main
> Possible: Convention Hotel, BoA Site
> Not Likely: Bricktown Towers
> Pure Speculation: Cox center site tower



I'd put it this way:

Certain: Stage Center (16-18 stories)
Likely: Main & Hudson (30 to 45 stories)
Likely: Convention Hotel (20 to 30 stories)
Possible: Hudson & Dean A McGee
Possible: 4th & EK Gaylord
Long shot: Bricktown Towers

----------


## Plutonic Panda

What about the BOA site?

Also is a mid-high rise still possible for hotel on the Steelyard?

----------


## Pete

> What about the BOA site?
> 
> Also is a mid-high rise still possible for hotel on the Steelyard?


The BofA site is Hudson & McGee.

Best we could hope for at the Steelyard would be about 10-12 stories.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> The BofA site is Hudson & McGee.
> 
> Best we could hope for at the Steelyard would be about 10-12 stories.


Gotcha...

----------


## Pete

These were the drawings done by KayneMo last year.  I've sent him a message to see if he could update them.

What you see here is pretty much what we are talking about, without Bricktown Towers or the BofA site.  Also, the Sears Tower looking thing is actually Stage Center Tower before we all got our hopes crushed.

So, shows CC Hotel, 4th & EKG and Main & Hudson sites plus the out-of-proportion Stage Center:

----------


## KayneMo

As per Pete's request, here are updated images!

----------


## Pete

^

You're the man!

Thanks as always.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I really want the pointed tower to give the skyline some character.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I really want the pointed tower to give the skyline some character.


I'd think with Pickard Chilton as the architect there'd be a good chance.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Live chat




> 11:09
> Steve Lackmeyer: Expect a big building.
> 
> 11:08
> Comment From Cinnamon 
> Have you heard any news on the Preftakes block?





> Steve Lackmeyer: I think we'll have to a wait a few more months before we see what may be developed on the block. I doubt a Waffle House is going to happen despite Tyler's campaign.
> 
> 11:09
> Comment From Waffleton 
> will one of the proposed/speculative towers downtown have a wafflehouse on the bottom floor? On a serious note, I think a good old school type diner would do well downtown. What are the plans for the old bus station? Has there been any talk into how it will be repurposed? If a new tower is built on the preftakes block and with the OGE tower there will be lots of new people in that general area.

----------


## Bellaboo

Steve's Live Chat -

11:22


Comment From Kitty 
Do you think we will hear about the "new" company moving to downtown that will not be an energy company this summer?  


11:22

 Steve Lackmeyer:* Yes. But I say that in the broadest sense and it's a play no one is expecting or talking about.*

----------


## Pete

^

Good!

Hope it's someone completely off the radar, because we already know about BOK and the expansion of the various energy companies.

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## bchris02

I agree.  Having a pointed building would do wonders for OKC's skyline.  I really hope it does end up like the picture above.  Of course that is best case scenario being that Bricktown Towers are not likely happening.  If everything else does happen, that would put OKC's skyline pretty far ahead of the other cities in its tier.

----------


## Bellaboo

> ^
> 
> Good!
> 
> Hope it's someone completely off the radar, because we already know about BOK and the expansion of the various energy companies.


I just wonder if this is an air force contractor ? I heard mention that someone from the chamber or city a few years ago remarked they wished Boeing would move downtown ?

----------


## Pete

> I just wonder if this is an air force contractor ? I heard mention that someone from the chamber or city a few years ago remarked they wished Boeing would move downtown ?


Since that time Boeing has entered into long-term leases with Dick Tanenbaum for buildings he specifically constructed for them right by the base.

And there is plenty of room to build more, if needed.

----------


## Pete

Something just occurred to me regarding all the increased chatter (from good sources) about the Main & Hudson tower...

I'm sure that the downtown stakeholders (Devon, OG&E and lots of others) are very sensitive to the fact that there is going to be a lot of negativity when Stage Center starts to come down.  That is going to be an emotional and ugly experience for many and will cast downtown and what is happening there in a very bad light.  And, new construction there won't start for a while and even when it does, it will take years before the new building is open for business.  In other words, this is going to be a negative without much positive for quite a while.

So, in an effort to switch back to progress and positive momentum, they may want to announce the new tower sooner rather than later.

We know the Stage Center is going to be gone by the end of August so it would be wise to have a grand unveiling of new tower renderings to shift the conversation.

----------


## traxx

> * Yes. But I say that in the broadest sense and it's a play no one is expecting or talking about.*

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> I'll say it again: It wouldn't be that difficult to retain and restore the historic facades while constructing a tower behind. Here in Seattle, I know of several recent buildings constructed behind old facades.


Thought I would bump up these old Carpenter Square photos.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Love the traffic "cones" in that last pic.

----------


## lasomeday

That to me says that it is an expansion of a company not currently in OKC..... Not a headquarters but a "field" office or branch for something like GE did.  Although not in oil and gas.

----------


## Anonymous.

The 'too much free time' MS paint OKC:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I dig it!

----------


## ChrisHayes

I'd like something either pointed or a round/tubular skyscraper. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. But something to stand out. Something different than a Devon design or a plain old box skyscraper.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I'd like something either pointed or a round/tubular skyscraper. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. But something to stand out. Something different than a Devon design or a plain old box skyscraper.


Like this?

----------


## Pete

The Main & Hudson site is going to be a challenge for Pickard Chitlon because they already have a huge project (Devon) right across the street.

If you look at their skyscraper designs, most have a lot of similarity to Devon.

But of course, they are world class architects and have all types of creative options to perhaps complement our existing skyline and also having a presence of it's own.

----------


## Thundercitizen

Cylindrical would be a nice addition to the character of the CBD, but I kinda like the No.2 pencil look in the model along with some red brick finishes.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Other than the pointed kind, the ones Plu Pan posted were also what I would like to see. I couldn't find a photo of that one tower in the photos because I couldn't find them again. 

Or this?...

SOM : Pertamina Energy Tower

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I'd love 99 story tower. That would be great. How many other cities have 100 story tower?

----------


## zookeeper

> I'd love 99 story tower. That would be great. How many other cities have 100 story tower?


That would throw the entire skyline out of whack. It's already borderline with Devon. Some say, "Why does Oklahoma City only have one tall building?" That's because the others look small and insignificant in comparison. Without Devon, downtown looked dense and tall, now it looks like it's a small city with one "real" skyscraper. I've rarely heard this discussed here, but I hear it from out-of-towners and have to explain that it's just perspective. Almost an optical illusion from certain angles. Adding a super tall building would just add to this effect.

----------


## ChrisHayes

> Like this?



Yeah, something like that at the top would be awesome. I'm 100% on board with nothing super tall. Maybe something a little shorter than Devon. Something to add balance to the skyline. Downtown isn't big enough for anything super tall.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> That would throw the entire skyline out of whack. It's already borderline with Devon. Some say, "Why does Oklahoma City only have one tall building?" That's because the others look small and insignificant in comparison. Without Devon, downtown looked dense and tall, now it looks like it's a small city with one "real" skyscraper. I've rarely heard this discussed here, but I hear it from out-of-towners and have to explain that it's just perspective. Almost an optical illusion from certain angles. Adding a super tall building would just add to this effect.


i disagree

----------


## LocoAko

> i disagree


I've had the exact same experience with out-of-towners too, and even I have to admit the Devon Tower often makes our skyline looks dwarfed and minimal, particularly from certain angles. I guarantee a 99-story tower would make it looks like OKC had two tall buildings and that was it.

----------


## hoya

My pseudo-realistic dream for OKC would be for us to get two more towers roughly in scale with Devon.  If the one on Hudson and Main had a smaller footprint, but was within 100 feet or so in height, it would make Devon fit better with the rest of the skyline.  A tower on Robert S. Kerr and Hudson (say, for Continental Resources) that was 650' to 700' would help a lot too.

----------


## Pete

I created a new graphic and did my best to summarize what I think will happen on the Preftakes Block:

Preftakes Block - OKCTalk

----------


## OKCRT

What downtown needs is a few towers between 35-45 stories to help even things out between Devon and the others. And hopefully that is exactly what we will get.

----------


## ChrisHayes

> What downtown needs is a few towers between 35-45 stories to help even things out between Devon and the others. And hopefully that is exactly what we will get.


My thoughts exactly! As cool as it would be to have a super tall skyscraper, Oklahoma City doesn't need one of those. Maybe in 20 or so years we'll be able to support somehting like that, but not now. And in reality, I wouldn't want that because that would probably mean we're a huge city like Dallas and that's not the mold I'd like to see OKC take. I want to see OKC take a typical 500-1,000,000 person city mold but become much more modern and be a center of commerce, research, etc. A city that the US looks at as a great place to live and set up shop. You get the idea :-)

----------


## UnFrSaKn

I was going for the design of the 99 story building, not the height of it. Devon Tower should be our tallest building in our lifetimes for sure, just need a bunch of infill and smaller towers.

----------


## HOT ROD

> Something just occurred to me regarding all the increased chatter (from good sources) about the Main & Hudson tower...
> 
> I'm sure that the downtown stakeholders (Devon, OG&E and lots of others) are very sensitive to the fact that there is going to be a lot of negativity when Stage Center starts to come down.  That is going to be an emotional and ugly experience for many and will cast downtown and what is happening there in a very bad light.  And, new construction there won't start for a while and even when it does, it will take years before the new building is open for business.  In other words, this is going to be a negative without much positive for quite a while.
> 
> So, in an effort to switch back to progress and positive momentum, *they may want to announce the new tower sooner rather than later*.
> 
> We know the Stage Center is going to be gone by the end of August so it would be wise to have a grand unveiling of new tower renderings to shift the conversation.


I think you're onto something, particularly when also considering Steve's chat:





> 11:35 a.m. When do you think we will have our next big announcement downtown?
> Steve Lackmeyer 11:36 a.m.Hard to say. But *it could be this next month*. I'm not in control.

----------


## HOT ROD

Chris, needs to be a 600K-1,000,000 person city mold since OKC already has over 610K. Cities in this demo include Seattle, Denver, Indy, and Charlotte - not a bad collection to mold to.

----------


## hoya

> I was going for the design of the 99 story building, not the height of it. Devon Tower should be our tallest building in our lifetimes for sure, just need a bunch of infill and smaller towers.


I don't know how old you are, but I hope to see taller before I die in 200 years.

----------


## Floyd

..

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Much smaller version of this?

Phoenix Towers plans revealed as world?s tallest, pinkest and greenest skyscrapers to be built in China ? but inspired by London - Architecture - Arts and Entertainment - The Independent

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> I was going for the design of the 99 story building, not the height of it. Devon Tower should be our tallest building in our lifetimes for sure, just need a bunch of infill and smaller towers.


I know. That was me speaking for the height. Regardless of what people say, I still think it would look good here and be really cool.

----------


## KayneMo

Some Photoshop fun: 


Original image:

----------


## catcherinthewry

Nice job, KayneMo.

----------


## KayneMo

^Thank you!

More Photoshop fun:


Original image:

----------


## ChrisHayes

I love both of them Photoshop images. Both bring balance to downtown.

----------


## lasomeday

Awesome job Kanye. Those buildings look real and Devon looks fake because of the reflections.

----------


## Urbanized

Man, that photo underscores what an important opportunity the Cox Center will be in the not-too-distant future.

----------


## bchris02

Once the Cox center is gone, I think its a no-brainer to extend the canal to the Myriad Gardens and develop that portion of it the way Lower Bricktown _should_ have been done.

----------


## hoya

> Once the Cox center is gone, I think its a no-brainer to extend the canal to the Myriad Gardens and develop that portion of it the way Lower Bricktown _should_ have been done.


I dunno, you'd have to go right through the Santa Fe train depot.

----------


## Urbanized

I agree that would be a great opportunity to actually make the canal a connector rather than simply an attraction, which I think makes development along the entire length much easier.

I would caution though that there are some engineering challenges at this location including utility tunnels servicing the Chesapeake Arena and also the fact that EK Gaylord will be depressed to meet the Boulevard as it comes through the BNSF viaduct. Since the canal has a fixed elevation it dictates various clearances around these features. This is why when the Bricktown Association was proposing the consideration of extension into the CBD prior to the passage of MAPS 3, engineers advised that the canal be extended south to 4th before crossing the railroad and continuing west. This didn't make sense to the casual observer at the time and was poorly communicated by proponents.

Not saying it can't be done; quite the opposite in fact. I absolutely think it should happen. Just pointing out that there are some limitations regarding where it comes through. Probably at this point the closer to Sheridan the better, if coming through north of the boulevard.

----------


## David

> I dunno, you'd have to go right through the Santa Fe train depot.


It would be a little awkward connecting it to the Gardens as well if you go straight, the Park House and Ice House facilities are a little in the way too.

----------


## 5alive

Also shows what a waste of space Century Center is...what I mean is, think of a 20 or 30 (or more) story building there. Nothing against Century Center per se...just not in that spot.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Also shows what a waste of space Century Center is...what I mean is, think of a 20 or 30 (or more) story building there. Nothing against Century Center per se...just not in that spot.


Yeah I go back and forth on that, every building downtown doesn't need to be a tower, but the century center is in a pretty prominent location. I don't think it will be seen as a waste of space at all after it's renovation and the cox center block is redeveloped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Snowman

> I dunno, you'd have to go right through the Santa Fe train depot.


With it being faux canal, I expect you could pretty much just make them two separate water structures and do something decorative between, I think the more important thing is just establishing a convenient walk (hopefully entirely the canal level) between the current canal end as far as the city would be willing to run the new one. That could tie the underground & canal level together as well. Though utility relocation probably would be a pain. 

The main thing that would miss out with them not being one water pool is that the water taxis could not run all the way and make a stop at the Myriad Gardens/newest part of the CBD, but if they did really want to do it, it could just skirt around the north side of the Santa Fe building. It seems like there was a gap in between the existing and new construction for the hub anyway.

----------


## bchris02

> I dunno, you'd have to go right through the Santa Fe train depot.


Why not something like this?

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## Bellaboo

> Why not something like this?


I think the transit hub would prohibit this design. At one time the proposal had it going from the west end south to Reno, then back west under the train bridge and then along the south end of the CCC.

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## ChrisHayes

I didn't realize that Cox took up such a huge chunk of real estate. I like the idea of extending the canal to Myriad, but also to the Oklahoma River. Maybe on the north side of the canal a couple of high rises. One the south side an extension of lower Bricktown and an entertainment district to go along with Cheseapeake Arena.

----------


## Urbanized

> I think the transit hub would prohibit this design. At one time the proposal had it going from the west end south to Reno, then back west under the train bridge and then along the south end of the CCC.


Two challenges with that:

EK Gaylord will dip sharply below grade starting around Reno to intersect the Boulevard as it passes under the BNSF tracks. Most folks still don't understand the massive rework they will soon be seeing on Gaylord/Shields in front of the Courtyard. The surface of the canal would be above street level at the lowest point, which makes bridges/crossings difficult to say the least.There are massive steam/HVAC tunnels running under Reno between Cox and Chesapeake, which would still remain even if the Cox was redeveloped. also, the Cox parking structure doesn't stop at the edge of the buliding; it extends all of the way under the sidewalk roughly to the curb.
At the very least there are a lot of engineering challenges with this route, though on many levels it makes the most sense. At one point during planning for arena renovations there was even consideration given to exposing the basement level where the Courtside and Founders Clubs were built and giving them canal frontage. THAT would have been amazing.

----------


## MFracas84

I had no idea that the Cox center was up for removal. They sure are pouring a lot of money into it if they are going to tear it down.

----------


## lasomeday

Everything is disposable to our city.

Stage Center, Film Exchange buildings, Cox Center.....  They are just dated buildings in the way.

----------


## MFracas84

So this story about the Cox Center being demolished is just speculation?  While I think the space could be used for other things, I am skeptical that it will be torn down in the next 20+ years.  The city often raves about having two arenas next to each other for playoff games and other events and if I understand correctly, this new convention center will not have an arena.  The Oklahoma City Barons will be without a home for one thing and the idea of sharing the Chesapeake Arena also seems challenging.  The reason I say this is because I am already hearing complaints of Oklahoma City losing concerts and events to Tulsa because the Oklahoma City Thunder games have it booked up.  If the Barons and the Thunder are using our only arena then we are even less available for concerts.

While these buildings may be dated and in the way, I still think the general public may be unaware that this new convention center will not have an arena. I also think that the public will take some convincing to build another arena when we still haven's seen any of the MAPS 3 projects built.  I could be misunderstanding the situation but I am not buying that the Cox Center will be destroyed in less than 20 years.

----------


## Urbanized

There are no official plans to remove the Cox Center, only speculation here that it will be made redundant by the new convention center and that the massive amount of downtown land it occupies could be redeveloped for a higher and better use than (what will become) rarely used exhibit and arena space. If that happens I don't think its removal will be especially tragic OR controversial.

Obviously there are other options for hockey, and the two arena thing became muted when the Big 12 men's and women's tournaments were split from one another. It would even be possible (though not necessarily advisable) for the arena bowl to be retained and for LOTS of redevelopment to take place around it in place of the current exhibit halls. The arena itself is only a relatively small portion of the building's footprint. Compare it to the footprint of the larger-capacity but arena-only Chesapeake Arena and you'll see what I mean.

----------


## lasomeday

> So this story about the Cox Center being demolished is just speculation?


Who said speculation?  The city is planning on tearing it down.

----------


## Urbanized

I agree that this is widely assumed, but I don't recall seeing public acknowledgment of that by City officials in the media. Do you have a source for that statement?

----------


## BrettM2

> Who said speculation?  The city is planning on tearing it down.


Where have you seen this?

----------


## MFracas84

I take back my point.  After asking my wife the question if she thought the Cox Center would be torn down in the next 20 years, she said yes.  She knows nothing of any of the points that I made.  Her point is probably shared by others and so I could and probably am wrong.  I do think it would be tragic to not have two large arenas available, maybe something could be worked out.  I know it is off subject but I would still love to have a football stadium downtown.

----------


## warreng88

> So this story about the Cox Center being demolished is just speculation?  While I think the space could be used for other things, I am skeptical that it will be torn down in the next 20+ years.  The city often raves about having two arenas next to each other for playoff games and other events and if I understand correctly, this new convention center will not have an arena.  The Oklahoma City Barons will be without a home for one thing and the idea of sharing the Chesapeake Arena also seems challenging.  The reason I say this is because I am already hearing complaints of Oklahoma City losing concerts and events to Tulsa because the Oklahoma City Thunder games have it booked up.  If the Barons and the Thunder are using our only arena then we are even less available for concerts.
> 
> While these buildings may be dated and in the way, I still think the general public may be unaware that this new convention center will not have an arena. I also think that the public will take some convincing to build another arena when we still haven's seen any of the MAPS 3 projects built.  I could be misunderstanding the situation but I am not buying that the Cox Center will be destroyed in less than 20 years.


Couple of things here: 

1) The only time having two arenas next to each other mattered is when we were hosting the Big 12 basketball tournament. It is in Kansas City now and has been for several years. That is valid through 2016 and then it is up for renewal again. The State Fairgrounds arena could easily host the women's tourney if it were to come back.

2) I would be shocked if the Barons are here after next season. It seems like the Funk's have become more interested in a soccer team (which is more profitable to them) than a hockey team where we get 2,000-4,000 fans if we are lucky.

3) The arena could be shared by the Thunder, Dallas did it for several years before we had a chance to host and it was fine. You just schedule a stretch of away games during that time. The Peake is host to the 2014 NCAA Women's Volleyball Championship December 18-20 in which the flooring will have to be completely redone and seats reconfigured, but it can be done.

----------


## Pete

Reminder that here in L.A., we have TWO NBA teams in the Staples Center PLUS the Kings of the NHL PLUS way more concerts and events than the Peake.

OKC doesn't need two arenas, especially when the second one is 45 years old and taking up a super block of prime downtown real estate.

----------


## MFracas84

Disregard my last post.

----------


## MFracas84

Disregard my last post.

----------


## MFracas84

Staples Center is the only venue in the entire Los Angeles area that has concerts?

----------


## Pete

> Staples Center is the only venue in the entire Los Angeles area that has concerts?


Not nearly but it still gets an absolute ton.

It's not uncommon for them to have multiple events in there in one day.

----------


## hoya

> Everything is disposable to our city.
> 
> Stage Center, Film Exchange buildings, Cox Center.....  They are just dated buildings in the way.


There's a big difference between the first two you listed and the Cox Center.

----------


## Just the facts

I have yet to see any rendering on future development around MBG - be it the new convention center or the transit hub - that includes the Cox Convention Center.  I seriously doubt extending the canal west of the railroad is ever going to happen.  At most you will probably see some better connectivity to transit hub but that is about it.

Maybe Urbanized can answer this - is the water level in the canal at the same elevation along the whole canal (like a swimming pool), or does it flow downhill?  I thought there was a 13' elevation drop but can't find it anywhere.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I have yet to see any rendering on future development around MBG - be it the new convention center or the transit hub - that includes the Cox Convention Center.  I seriously doubt extending the canal west of the railroad is ever going to happen.  At most you will probably see some better connectivity to transit hub but that is about it.
> 
> Maybe Urbanized can answer this -* is the water level in the canal at the same elevation along the whole canal (like a swimming pool), or does it flow downhill?*  I thought there was a 13' elevation drop but can't find it anywhere.


The water level is the same the entire length of the canal.

----------


## Just the facts

Thanks.  I remember there was a significant elevation difference between the upper and lower canal but didn't remember how they corrected it.  I guess it was a lot of fill dirt.

----------


## OKCSteel

The arena has an ice making system. Getting rid of the Cox would be common for most cities. They have hockey and basketball and concerts, etc. in the same venue.

----------


## bchris02

> The arena has an ice making system. Getting rid of the Cox would be common for most cities. They have hockey and basketball and concerts, etc. in the same venue.


Agree.  That's why I don't by excuse that the reason Tulsa gets most big-name concerts is because of the Thunder occupying the Peake.

----------


## Pete

> Agree.  That's why I don't by excuse that the reason Tulsa gets most big-name concerts is because of the Thunder occupying the Peake.


A lot of that had to do with aggressive off-season renovations.

There are more this time around too; the entire club level is being remodeled.

----------


## warreng88

The reason the BOK is getting more big name concerts than The Peake is because it is newer and partly because of the Thunder. When the Ford Center opened, there were a ton of national big named acts coming to play in OKC. It was a newer market with a good size venue. But, now that the Thunder are playing there, there might only be a night or two that they can play in OKC and the Thunder are playing that night, so instead of changing everything around for one night, they keep it the same and let it go to the BOK in Tulsa. Keep in mind SMG manages the Cox Arena, CHK Energy Arena and the BOK Center. They know what is going where.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Agree.  That's why I don't by excuse that the reason Tulsa gets most big-name concerts is because of the Thunder occupying the Peake.


I'm not really sure what there is to buy. Where is it easier to schedule a concert: in a large venue booked by 45 Preseason and regular season thunder games from October to April and 2 months of potential playoff games that may or may not occur in addition to all other large venue events and concerts or in a large venue with no primary tenant that can still attract people from both markets? The Ford Center was one of the ranked one of the best performing concert venues in the country until the Hornets/Thunder came to town.

----------


## Snowman

> ... is the water level in the canal at the same elevation along the whole canal (like a swimming pool), or does it flow downhill? I thought there was a 13' elevation drop but can't find it anywhere.


The main different elevation talk with the canal has been between the canal and the river (which on at least some engineering documents the tributary path to the canal is still called the Bricktown Canal), the Canal Zone G (which would more appropriately be called the river extension) name comes from early on they were considering another lock to traverse the 17 foot difference. Eventually the lock got cut out and so when they recently completed the river portion that 'connects' the river to the canal, we instead have canal taxi & river cruiser stops a short distance from each other.

----------


## adaniel

> I'm not really sure what there is to buy. Where is it easier to schedule a concert: in a large venue booked by 45 Preseason and regular season thunder games from October to April and 2 months of potential playoff games that may or may not occur in addition to all other large venue events and concerts or in a large venue with no primary tenant that can still attract people from both markets? The Ford Center was one of the ranked one of the best performing concert venues in the country until the Hornets/Thunder came to town.


Don't know where I heard it, but SMG routinely directs shows to BOK over the Peake for financial reasons as well. Despite more concerts in Tulsa, the Peake is considerably more profitable than the BOK because it has a "Big 4" sports tenant in the NBA and can demand a premium in naming rights, ticket prices, concessions, etc. The Shock/Oilers simply do not have the same attendance pull. Arenas make their money off of sports, not concerts. SMG knows that people in OKC will drive for concerts in Tulsa, so it purposefully fattens its margins up there where it can.

----------


## zookeeper

> Don't know where I heard it, but SMG routinely directs shows to BOK over the Peake for financial reasons as well. Despite more concerts in Tulsa, the Peake is considerably more profitable than the BOK because it has a "Big 4" sports tenant in the NBA and can demand a premium in naming rights, ticket prices, concessions, etc. The Shock/Oilers simply do not have the same attendance pull. Arenas make their money off of sports, not concerts. SMG knows that people in OKC will drive for concerts in Tulsa, so it purposefully fattens its margins up there where it can.


Exactly. I also don't mind driving to BOK for concerts - a great concert venue in its own right.

----------


## Urbanized

> I have yet to see any rendering on future development around MBG - be it the new convention center or the transit hub - that includes the Cox Convention Center.  I seriously doubt extending the canal west of the railroad is ever going to happen.  At most you will probably see some better connectivity to transit hub but that is about it.
> 
> Maybe Urbanized can answer this - is the water level in the canal at the same elevation along the whole canal (like a swimming pool), or does it flow downhill?  I thought there was a 13' elevation drop but can't find it anywhere.


It has already been answered for the most part, but the pool elevation is the same the length of the canal. As a captive body of water the only way there could be an elevation change is if there were a lock or locks, which would make no sense as due to size/power characteristics vessels in each respective body of water could not navigate the other even if the two bodies were connected. Simply put, there would be no earthly reason to actually physically connect the two.

Now, there IS a grade difference at the north end of the canal vs the south. At the north end (near the Cox Center) it is well below grade, while at the other end (past the Land Run Monument) it is actually ABOVE the surrounding terrain. In other words, the LAND elevation between Bricktown and the south side of Lower Bricktown drops off considerably.

All of that said, I do believe the surface elevation of the lake at the MBG is SIMILAR (though not identical). It is theoretically possible that if the canal came through the railroad viaduct and connected to MBG that it could actually terminate inside the lake, though it might be visually (a pool within a pool). This was being explored at one point, and I hope that at some point it is considered again. I think connecting the canal to MBG would help the canal, Bricktown, AND the Myriad Gardens, and would create a pretty special "super sidewalk" connecting the CBD to Bricktown.

----------


## KayneMo

I did more Photoshop to the previous photo by taking a section of the Back Bay neighborhood in Boston and putting it over the Cox. This was a lot harder than I expected, lol. But I'm okay with how it turned out:

----------


## HOT ROD

mystery tower ideas, anyone?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Would be better if it had a few towers.... But it's cool

----------


## warreng88

Has there been any speculation as to something buying the property south of the proposed Stage Center tower for another tower development? It's about the same size and then there is a plot of land directly west of that which would be redeveloped as well. There are only three buildings on that whole 3/4 block.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Has there been any speculation as to something buying the property south of the proposed Stage Center tower for another tower development? It's about the same size and then there is a plot of land directly west of that which would be redeveloped as well. There are only three buildings on that whole 3/4 block.


I think that is probably the most prime piece of land downtown, due to the parkside location. Maybe Continental will end up there in a few years.

----------


## Teo9969

I'm thinking the Cox block needs something like the Sony Center in Berlin surrounded by some high-rise residential. 4 stories would be a total waste of that space. Nothing less than 10 stories on that block unless it were a unique attraction like the Sony Center, would be acceptable, as far as I'm concerned. 

it doesn't need to be 50, but 10 to 30 should be standard on that block.

----------


## Chadanth

> I'm thinking the Cox block needs something like the Sony Center in Berlin surrounded by some high-rise residential. 4 stories would be a total waste of that space. Nothing less than 10 stories on that block unless it were a unique attraction like the Sony Center, would be acceptable, as far as I'm concerned. 
> 
> it doesn't need to be 50, but 10 to 30 should be standard on that block.


Multi-use. Open-air shopping/retail/restaurants all on the ground floor, parking below, 2-3 stories of commercial/offices, 5 stories of residential or hotels above. Multiple structures, but internally pedestrian-only.

----------


## zookeeper

KanyeMo, Your Photoshop work shows how important infill is versus building something taller than Devon. Your photos show a truly big city skyline. I must admit, even as a loyal Myriad lover, I really like your Back Bay concept, too.

----------


## Teo9969

> Multi-use. Open-air shopping/retail/restaurants all on the ground floor, parking below, 2-3 stories of commercial/offices, 5 stories of residential or hotels above. Multiple structures, but internally pedestrian-only.


Sony Center:

----------


## catcherinthewry

> I'm thinking the Cox block needs something like the Sony Center in Berlin surrounded by some high-rise residential. 4 stories would be a total waste of that space. Nothing less than 10 stories on that block unless it were a unique attraction like the Sony Center, would be acceptable, as far as I'm concerned. 
> 
> it doesn't need to be 50, but 10 to 30 should be standard on that block.


I like this idea. Plus, isn't there a 10 story minimum on new buildings in the CBD?

----------


## Teo9969

The least important aspect, to me, is the ceiling…No reason we couldn't do *something* to make it stand out without it being a wind hazard…The main thing is that you have a very tight-knit public space in the center of all the activity, shielded but not invisible from the street. There are restaurants, a movie theater, shopping. It's like a small little outdoor mall, but it has such a great sense of place and it's very programmable. It has such a great balance of being part of the larger area (Potsdamer Platz – there are tons of super nice hotels and businesses in this area which help feed the activity) while creating it's own little identity (Sony Center)

You also can't see it, but this is right off a major U/S-Bahn stop (Potsdamer Platz) and means that it's easily accessible to the entire city. This would be sitting right across from the transit hub and would give a lot of people a reason to walk West from the hub rather than East toward Bricktown. It would be the most complete mixed-use PLACE in OKC, and I don't think you can argue that on the Cox site would be the absolute best site for such a development.

God I love Germany…Oh how I vermisse Deutschland.

----------


## Teo9969

> I like this idea. Plus, isn't there a 10 story minimum on new buildings in the CBD?


Don't believe so…there's a lot of stuff under 10 stories in the CBD.

----------


## Teo9969

> It all sounds great. But this is exactly what Bricktown should have been. Lots of density, right up to the canal, etc... But it isn't even close. I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here but the City is going to have to have different rules in place or different people in charge if we are to expect different results. Different results that I really do hope OKC gets.


What will kill this possibility is insistence on having 1,500 parking spaces on this mega block. That's why I think I would prefer the cox center to stay afloat until 2025. By then the city should have enough of an urban taste in its mouth from Deep Deuce and Midtown along with a better idea of the future importance of Santa Fe station that an idea like this is finally approachable and is viewed as perfectly viable without needing all the parking spaces. 

And it doesn't even have to be exactly like this…in fact, I think if there were a straight-line view from the front of Santa Fe station toward the Crystal bridge that pierced through a central-block public space that would be ideal. This is the most important block in the entirety of OKC, and will be for the rest of the city's history. The right development on this block alone could turn OKC into a Tier-II city.

If we put another arena there, I'm done with OKC.

----------


## zookeeper

> It all sounds great. But this is exactly what Bricktown should have been. Lots of density, right up to the canal, etc... But it isn't even close. I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here but *the City is going to have to have different rules in place or different people in charge if we are to expect different results.* Different results that I really do hope OKC gets.


Amen, Sid.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> Don't believe so…there's a lot of stuff under 10 stories in the CBD.


I said new buildings.

----------


## Just the facts

> Multi-use. Open-air shopping/retail/restaurants all on the ground floor, parking below, 2-3 stories of commercial/offices, 5 stories of residential or hotels above. Multiple structures, but internally pedestrian-only.


My wife and kids just took a tour of Palm Beach Atlantic University and they all loved how walkable the area was (I have only been trying to tell them that for 3 years).  In addition to the downtown university campus and downtown buildings, they also have an area like you just described called City Place.  My son is ready to move right now - and he still has 3 years of high school left.

CityPlace :: 700 S. Rosemary Avenue, West Palm Beach, FL. 33401 :: 561.366.1000

----------


## Chadanth

> My wife and kids just took a tour of Palm Beach Atlantic University and they all loved how walkable the area was (I have only been trying to tell them that for 3 years).  In addition to the downtown university campus and downtown buildings, they also have an area like you just described called City Place.  My son is ready to move right now - and he still has 3 years of high school left.
> 
> CityPlace :: 700 S. Rosemary Avenue, West Palm Beach, FL. 33401 :: 561.366.1000


It would bring density, residents, entertainment, shopping, etc. Lots of potential users for the new park, more restaurants and diversions immediately adjacent to the arena, etc.

----------


## huskysooner

Time to post this again...courtesy of one of the OU School of Architecture's 5th year studio classes in 2011.

----------


## bchris02

> It all sounds great. But this is exactly what Bricktown should have been. Lots of density, right up to the canal, etc... But it isn't even close. I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here but the City is going to have to have different rules in place or different people in charge if we are to expect different results. Different results that I really do hope OKC gets.


I agree.  That is what Lower Bricktown should have/could have been.

----------


## boitoirich

For the CCC block, I like the idea of City Creek in Salt Lake City. That is also a dense, mixed use, transit oriented development (office, residential, retail). The attention to detail of that place is simple amazing. If the canal is extended west and a similar development is chosen for the site, it would be a home run.

----------


## BDP

> I agree.  That is what Lower Bricktown should have/could have been.


True. And probably getting something better somewhere else will be the only way Lower Bricktown will ever get fixed. It needs some worthy competition or I think it will wallow in mediocrity for a long time.

----------


## warreng88

I would love to see the CCC superblock street grid restored with a large roundabout in the center and a skinny 25-30 story tower in the middle with ground floor retail on all four quadrants, office space on the NW, housing on the SW, parking garages on the NE and SE with housing and office above each. All four structures on the quadrants being no shorter than five stories. It would make for a cool focal point.

----------


## BG918

> Time to post this again...courtesy of one of the OU School of Architecture's 5th year studio classes in 2011.


I like this idea of extending California and Broadway through the CC site.  Developing it in pieces with different developers/builders for each quadrant would be preferable with a master plan of uses with a majority residential as well as office, hotel and retail.

----------


## TheTravellers

> I've heard that BOK is looking to up their presence in OKC and move their existing employees along with the new ones into a new tower.


From what I got, BOK is thinking about moving lots of folks from around the city and downtown up on Broadway Ext, Wilshire-ish to Britton-ish, and they are looking to move further south in downtown, probably waiting until the park is closer to reality.  Not sure if they're part of the mystery tower or not from that info (unless it's like the Dark Tower on Britton/Broadway).

----------


## ChrisHayes

> From what I got, BOK is thinking about moving lots of folks from around the city and downtown up on Broadway Ext, Wilshire-ish to Britton-ish, and they are looking to move further south in downtown, probably waiting until the park is closer to reality.  Not sure if they're part of the mystery tower or not from that info (unless it's like the Dark Tower on Britton/Broadway).


I had heard rumors of a high rise that's going to be built up off Wilshire near Broadway Extension. The dark tower off Broadway is the former OPUBCO Building. American Fidelity is making that their new corporate headquarters and moving from their current location at 2000 Classen.

----------


## Bellaboo

> *I had heard rumors of a high rise that's going to be built up off Wilshire near Broadway Extension.* The dark tower off Broadway is the former OPUBCO Building. American Fidelity is making that their new corporate headquarters and moving from their current location at 2000 Classen.


You're hearing about AEP.

----------


## zookeeper

> You're hearing about AEP.


Hmmm. A big construction project already? Will McClendon ever learn from his mistakes?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Hmmm. A big construction project already? Will McClendon ever learn from his mistakes?


Well he's already laying the foundation for a company that's virtually impossible to oust him from, so I would say that he definitely has in some respects. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Pete

> Hmmm. A big construction project already? Will McClendon ever learn from his mistakes?


I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

His new office HQ will be very different with different people involved in designing it.

And, he already owns plenty of land so he doesn't have to run around paying millions for hundreds of little lots.

----------


## Spartan

His downfall with CHK campus building was being too generous buying out neighbors for 3-4 times their actual value.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> His downfall with CHK campus building was being too generous buying out neighbors for 3-4 times their actual value.


Yep, knowing where AEP's (or Arcadia Farms' to be more accurate) new location is, I would imagine Aubrey picked it up pretty cheap.

----------


## Spartan

The irony is many of the neighbors still complained vociferously.

----------


## Pete

Aubrey bought 75 acres at Wilshire and Broadway for $5.1 million.

With Chesapeake's money, he paid $3 million for a Shell station on .3 acres and $1.5 million each for two .1 acre parcels that are still vacant.

----------


## zookeeper

> Aubrey bought 75 acres at Wilshire and Broadway for $5.1 million.
> 
> With Chesapeake's money, he paid $3 million for a Shell station on .3 acres and $1.5 million each for two .1 acre parcels that are still vacant.


Yep, definitely a big difference.

----------


## soonerguru

> It all sounds great. But this is exactly what Bricktown should have been. Lots of density, right up to the canal, etc... But it isn't even close. I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here but the City is going to have to have different rules in place or different people in charge if we are to expect different results. Different results that I really do hope OKC gets.


Gotta move traffic. Gotta bend to the developers.

----------


## Just the facts

> Aubrey bought 75 acres at Wilshire and Broadway for $5.1 million.
> 
> With Chesapeake's money, he paid $3 million for a Shell station on .3 acres and $1.5 million each for two .1 acre parcels that are still vacant.


If we think the CHK campus was sprawling I can't imagine what he will do with 75 acres that he paid virtually nothing for in comparison.  I feel like the development version of Iron Eyes Cody who cries because of all the litter.

----------


## UnFrSaKn



----------


## SOONER8693

Looks like this has gone dormant again.

----------


## OKCRT

Yes a grinding halt. Where's the news? We want our towers and we want them now! We live in a world of instant gratification don't we?

----------


## HOT ROD

Steve is mysteriously quiet (was there even a live chat on Friday?, if so I missed it and couldn't find transcripts). 

I think something BIG is about to burst! And I hope/pray it is a revised Stage Centre tower proposal of at least 30 floors (mixed use office on bottom hotel on top) AND the Preftakes block redevelopment proposal which includes a 45+ floor tower and garage(s) with retail on first floors. 

Yes, I am likely dreaming but as I mentioned, Steve is remarkably quiet/absent as is this thread. ...

----------


## Bellaboo

Okay, I'll go out on a limb here, I'm on vacation from Aug 21 thru Sept 1......

That's when the announcement will happen.....smh

----------


## Pete

> Steve is mysteriously quiet (was there even a live chat on Friday?, if so I missed it and couldn't find transcripts). 
> 
> I think something BIG is about to burst! And I hope/pray it is a revised Stage Centre tower proposal of at least 30 floors (mixed use office on bottom hotel on top) AND the Preftakes block redevelopment proposal which includes a 45+ floor tower and garage(s) with retail on first floors. 
> 
> Yes, I am likely dreaming but as I mentioned, Steve is remarkably quiet/absent as is this thread. ...


Absolutely nothing to indicate the OG&E building will be more than 16 to 18 stories.

Something is going to happen at Main & Hudson and I expect we'll learn more in the next few months.

----------


## Spartan

> Looks like this has gone dormant again.


Noooo...must...revive....

----------


## OKCDrummer77

> Noooo...must...revive....


*grabs paddles*  CLEAR!!  *zap*

----------


## mkjeeves

> 


Possibly more appropriate for the thread than intended, Iron Eyes was a Native American impersonator of Italian descent.

----------


## Urbanized

Some Italians would disagree. He was Sicilian.

----------


## catcherinthewry

Inconceivable!

----------


## dmoor82

Pete, or really anyone? What is the chance OKC sees a 700'ft plus tall tower built within the next five years?

----------


## hoya

I don't think anyone can give you a good answer on that.  Pete could be positive that 3 new towers would be announced tomorrow, but what if they all come in at 699 feet?

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> I don't think anyone can give you a good answer on that.  Pete could be positive that 3 new towers would be announced tomorrow, but what if they all come in at 699 feet?


That'd still be 3 towers that bridge the gap...

----------


## Pete

> Pete, or really anyone? What is the chance OKC sees a 700'ft plus tall tower built within the next five years?


Really have no idea, although I believe the Main & Hudson tower could approach that height.

----------


## bchris02

Anything above 500 ft will be a complete game changer for OKC.  Right now, the Devon tower is the only tower above 500 ft.  The Chase tower is right at that mark.

----------


## coov23

> Anything above 500 ft will be a complete game changer for OKC.  Right now, the Devon tower is the only tower above 500 ft.  The Chase tower is right at that mark.


I thought the Chase tower was above 500?

----------


## SOONER8693

> I thought the Chase tower was above 500?


500 ft exactly.

----------


## Bellaboo

Steve references a couple of Mystery Towers in this article -

Investment in ongoing downtown, development could reach $1 billion | News OK

Since this story is locked for some, it states that Main & Hudson and Clayco south of the SC site will more than likely have major high rises.

----------


## modernism

> Steve references a couple of Mystery Towers in this article -
> 
> Investment in ongoing downtown, development could reach $1 billion | News OK


Please let's not go down this road again, we have speculating and reading about possible new towers for years, but nothing has popped yet!

----------


## Bellaboo

> Please let's not go down this road again, we have speculating and reading about possible new towers for years, but nothing has popped yet!


Please read the thread title - ( *speculation*, news and ideas).... all jest aside, he's looking at a 2015 start on these IIRC.

----------


## bchris02

> Please let's not go down this road again, we have speculating and reading about possible new towers for years, but nothing has popped yet!


True.  December 2013, as per Steve, was supposed to see a slew of announcements that would supposedly blow everyone away yet nothing popped.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> True.  December 2013, as per Steve, was supposed to see a slew of announcements that would supposedly blow everyone away yet nothing popped.


I feel like you've mentioned that before...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## BoulderSooner

Investment in ongoing downtown, development could reach $1 billion | NewsOK.com

----------


## zookeeper

> Investment in ongoing downtown, development could reach $1 billion | NewsOK.com


This is exciting. However, driving around Oklahoma City this weekend, I was really taken aback by what I saw. This city is in great disrepair north, south, east and west. I hope we continue downtown growth, but I'd like to see divided thoroughfares, nice looking lamps in the new medians, replace old and aged signage, throw in a few fountains, so many possibilities. This city is in dire need of some TLC in the way of beautification.

I only mention it here because this city won't be worth squat if we have 30 towers downtown and everything else is rundown.

----------


## hoya

We'll never have the money to beautify the city if we keep expanding ever outward.

----------


## zookeeper

> We'll never have the money to beautify the city if we keep expanding ever outward.


While I agree with your sentiment, as they say, "That train done left the depot." If we hadn't expanded another inch over the last ten years, we'd still be in this situation.

----------


## bchris02

> This is exciting. However, driving around Oklahoma City this weekend, I was really taken aback by what I saw. This city is in great disrepair north, south, east and west. I hope we continue downtown growth, but I'd like to see divided thoroughfares, nice looking lamps in the new medians, replace old and aged signage, throw in a few fountains, so many possibilities. This city is in dire need of some TLC in the way of beautification.
> 
> I only mention it here because this city won't be worth squat if we have 30 towers downtown and everything else is rundown.


I completely agree and have been saying this all along.  Much of OKC is mindnumbingly ugly and run down.  There are a few nice corridors but they are the exception moreso than the rule.  A lot of people have called this town "America's largest truck stop."  That perception is somewhat grounded in reality.

----------


## bchris02

> While I agree with your sentiment, as they say, "That train done left the depot." If we hadn't expanded another inch over the last ten years, we'd still be in this situation.


The best solution to this problem is to make sure everything built going forward is built with aesthetics in mind instead of as cheap as possible.  Unfortunately I don't see much of a chance of that in OKC proper.  Places like Edmond and Norman on the other hand are much more aesthetically pleasing and you can immediately tell when crossing into one of them from OKC proper.

----------


## Pete

> I completely agree and have been saying this all along.  Much of OKC is mindnumbingly ugly and run down.  There are a few nice corridors but they are the exception moreso than the rule.  A lot of people have called this town "America's largest truck stop."  That perception is somewhat grounded in reality.


Okay, I think everyone has had enough of your one-note negative diatribe and agenda being interjected into every possible thread.

You're being granted a one-month vacation which will be made permanent if you can't learn to participate in at least a semi-constructive way.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

:Congrats:

----------


## Bullbear

> 


I 2nd that. the constant negativity really gets to me after a while.

----------


## zookeeper

> I completely agree and have been saying this all along.  Much of OKC is mindnumbingly ugly and run down.  There are a few nice corridors but they are the exception moreso than the rule.  A lot of people have called this town "America's largest truck stop."  That perception is somewhat grounded in reality.


Well, it's one thing to see disrepair in many parts of the city and want a beautification program. It's quite another for anybody to call our city "America's Largest Truck Stop." That's not even close to reality - at all.

Edit - Well, I see that ownership has had enough of the over the top negativity. It's one thing to see problems and offer solutions, ideas, etc. It's quite another to jump on every comment as an opportunity to stick the knife deeper into Oklahoma City at every possibility. You dislike it so much here, for your own sanity, you _really_ should consider relocation.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

> You're being granted a one-month vacation which will be made permanent if you can't learn to participate in at least a semi-constructive way.


He's been granted or us?  :Yourock:

----------


## BDP

> While I agree with your sentiment, as they say, "That train done left the depot." If we hadn't expanded another inch over the last ten years, we'd still be in this situation.


Very true. Our last bond issue that included streets and infrastructure repair is spending more on our city than all of MAPS 3 will and it's barely noticeable, save for some streets being smoother for a couple of years.

However, the best thing about doing what we've done with downtown is that it's momentum has been spreading outwards. As other areas improve and the stake holders begin to have more pride (and return) in their investments, they will more than likely be the ones that lead the beautification projects. Other than that, we really just don't have an economy that matches our geographical size. At least, not one that can pay for fountains in every square and decorative lights lining every street.

----------


## ChrisHayes

I'm newer to Oklahoma City, but despite some areas not very appealing to the eye, I still love it here. If I had the money and know how, I'd start a public initiative to beautify the city. Simple things would help. Cleaning up yards, painting ugly buildings (such as along Western Ave), and minor things. Curb appeal can really help. I am a believer that as time goes along we'll see improvements in the city's curb appeal and general looks. Especially if the economy of the city stays on this track.

----------


## s00nr1

While OKC is certainly no "truck stop," the areas along I-35 south of downtown all the way into Moore are very unappealing. Rundown industrial is not a good look to have up and down your most traveled thoroughfare.

With that being said, once you hit the new crosstown, points northward look fantastic.

----------


## lasomeday

> I'm newer to Oklahoma City, but despite some areas not very appealing to the eye, I still love it here. If I had the money and know how, I'd start a public initiative to beautify the city. Simple things would help. Cleaning up yards, painting ugly buildings (such as along Western Ave), and minor things. Curb appeal can really help. I am a believer that as time goes along we'll see improvements in the city's curb appeal and general looks. Especially if the economy of the city stays on this track.


BIG EVENT for OKC!  OU and OSU do it for Norman and Stillwater.  I think focusing on one neighborhood at a time would be the easiest.  Getting neighborhood associations formed to police and maintain the neighborhoods is crucial.  

On another note..... I'm the anti-bchris02

I was having breakfast at Flint Sunday and I sat next to a couple from NY that moved here a few years ago.  They love it.  They had friends driving thru from NY to California sitting with them.  They told their out of town friends, that they love it here because OKC suits their personalities... laid back and friendly.  They were happy to get out of the NE and be in a more welcoming environment.  They were tired of the cold weather and people.

----------


## jccouger

Worlds Largest truck stop? Is Love's moving downtown?

----------


## pickles

> Okay, I think everyone has had enough of your one-note negative diatribe and agenda being interjected into every possible thread.
> 
> You're being granted a one-month vacation which will be made permanent if you can't learn to participate in at least a semi-constructive way.


Thank you for this.

----------


## mugofbeer

> I completely agree and have been saying this all along.  Much of OKC is mindnumbingly ugly and run down.  There are a few nice corridors but they are the exception moreso than the rule.  A lot of people have called this town "America's largest truck stop."  That perception is somewhat grounded in reality.


You are truly the single most negative person I have ever come across.  On the occasion someone else says something negative about OK or OKC, you even "like" the negative comments.  My God, enough already!

----------


## mugofbeer

Sorry......I commented before reading the rest of the thread.....

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Okay, I think everyone has had enough of your one-note negative diatribe and agenda being interjected into every possible thread.
> 
> You're being granted a one-month vacation which will be made permanent if you can't learn to participate in at least a semi-constructive way.


Pete FTW...and the crowd goes wild!!!

There is definitely a difference between constructive criticism and blatant negativity. I think most of us appreciate the former but the latter is never necessary, nor does it add to the discussion. BChris seems incapable of being constructive in his criticisms and is almost becoming a troll. Thank you for giving us a break. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## SOONER8693

> Okay, I think everyone has had enough of your one-note negative diatribe and agenda being interjected into every possible thread.
> 
> You're being granted a one-month vacation which will be made permanent if you can't learn to participate in at least a semi-constructive way.


Thank you, thank you, thank you. Everyones prayers have been answered.

----------


## Eddie1

> While OKC is certainly no "truck stop," the areas along I-35 south of downtown all the way into Moore are very unappealing. Rundown industrial is not a good look to have up and down your most traveled thoroughfare.
> 
> With that being said, once you hit the new crosstown, points northward look fantastic.


This is interesting because the last time I drove down to Dallas I can honestly say the 15-20 miles north of Dallas on the I35. As you are entering the CBD are far less attractive and cluttered than entering OKC from the South and comparing the 10-15 miles through Moore and Norman.  We have a much cleaner "entrance" coming from the south-north route.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

All cities have very unattractive places. OKC is the nicer city I've been to. If you come to OKC you will see its the best city!

----------


## Urbanized

LOL PluPlan you're obviously bipolar.

----------


## jccouger

> This is interesting because the last time I drove down to Dallas I can honestly say the 15-20 miles north of Dallas on the I35. As you are entering the CBD are far less attractive and cluttered than entering OKC from the South and comparing the 10-15 miles through Moore and Norman.  We have a much cleaner "entrance" coming from the south-north route.


Certainly there is a lot of industrial south of the river, but that is crucial to any city. Despite that, I think the Frontier Bank near 59th street has some of the best architecture in the entire city. And the Moore area near the Warren is anything but rundown industrial.

----------


## s00nr1

Without a doubt Frontier State Bank is the most aesthetically pleasing development along I-35 between downtown and 4th St. in Moore. I would love to see more like it. However, there is very little else in that corridor other than the like of Tio Chuy's auto sales, Big Bob's Flooring outlet, machinery plants, etc....Bob Moore Ford isn't terrible.

----------


## Laramie

> While OKC is certainly no "truck stop," the areas along I-35 south of downtown all the way into Moore are very unappealing. Rundown industrial is not a good look to have up and down your most traveled thoroughfare.
> 
> With that being said, once you hit the new crosstown, points northward look fantastic.






> All cities have very unattractive places. OKC is the nicer city I've been to. If you come to OKC you will see its the best city!


In addition to a city being structurally and physically attractive--it has to have character and personality; that's engrained in the fabric of our city--its people.

The era post MAPS I has shown improvements within our city.  Sometimes you don't see those improvements; out of state friends have commented on the cosmetic changes within our city, most notably:

         

*"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.*

----------


## ChrisHayes

Where's that wooden bridge that leads to that Chinese type of structure? I've never seen that before.

----------


## Dustin

It's the elephant habitat at the zoo.

----------


## LakeEffect

> It's the elephant habitat at the zoo.


From the elephant's point of view.

----------


## s00nr1

Lackmeyer taking shots at Pete and OKCTalk on Twitter just now  -- I wasn't able to screencap it before he deleted his tweet but it said something to the effect that posters on OKCTalk are constantly negative and uninformed. 

Basically went something like this (paraphrasing):

@sportstoons crazy questions today @stevelackmeyer (referring to weekly chat)

Reply from @stevelackmeyer
It's crazy to think how people take the posts of constantly negative, uninformed people and treat them as the word of God. 

---------

Keep it classy Steve.

----------


## gopokes88

> Lackmeyer taking shots at Pete and OKCTalk on Twitter just now  -- I wasn't able to screencap it before he deleted his tweet but it said something to the effect that posters on OKCTalk are constantly negative and uninformed. 
> 
> Basically went something like this (paraphrasing):
> 
> @sportstoons crazy questions today @stevelackmeyer (referring to weekly chat)
> 
> Reply from @stevelackmeyer
> It's crazy to think how people take the posts of constantly negative, uninformed people and treat them as the word of God. 
> 
> ...


In Steve's defense he got some ridiculously negative and stupid questions today. Particularly "Rand"

----------


## Bellaboo

> Lackmeyer taking shots at Pete and OKCTalk on Twitter just now  -- I wasn't able to screencap it before he deleted his tweet but it said something to the effect that posters on OKCTalk are constantly negative and uninformed. 
> 
> Basically went something like this (paraphrasing):
> 
> @sportstoons crazy questions today @stevelackmeyer (referring to weekly chat)
> 
> Reply from @stevelackmeyer
> It's crazy to think how people take the *posts of constantly negative, uninformed people* and treat them as the word of God. 
> 
> ...


Hey, Bchris has been banned for 30 days....

----------


## BrettM2



----------


## okclee

More shots fired!

----------


## Plutonic Panda

I understand some people make mistakes and say things they don't mean, but I've just about lost all of my respect for Steve.

----------


## BrettM2

> In Steve's defense he got some ridiculously negative and stupid questions today. Particularly "Rand"


I thought they have the option of choosing which questions they answered.

----------


## Laramie

Leave that mess alone, that's women's talk...

*"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.*

----------


## David

In fairness, it's not like he isn't at least a little right. Bchris wasn't exactly the only poster here who was negative with zero proof, he was just the loudest and most consistent in his negativity.

----------


## catch22

Well, what was the most inaccurate was saying the site is uninformed.

The people who visit this site regularly are more informed on a broader sense of issues, and likely in greater detail than the casual reader of his blogs or the newspaper. And the information Pete delivers via his sources are definitely not uninformed.

I'll take a little bit of negativity as a trade off as a resource for a huge network of detailed and mostly accurate information.

Even then, there isn't a ton of negativity here. Especially now.

----------


## Bellaboo

I'm not sure how he determines how a 'guest' on his chat is a confirmed poster or reader on OKCtalk ?

----------


## Teo9969

> I'm not sure how he determines how a 'guest' on his chat is a confirmed poster or reader on OKCtalk ?


I think the assumption is that negative + uninformed information starts somewhere on a non-NewsOK website, I guess, because of that website?

It doesn't particularly make sense.

----------


## Dustin

> From the elephant's point of view.


Wow.  Malee is growing up so fast!  She knows how to work a camera!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

"Hmm... the Mystery Tower thread got bumped up. I better check it out." 

...

 :Banghead:

----------


## OkieNate

> 


I cannot believe Lackmeyer would be so honest about newsok.com! Good for him!

----------


## adaniel

> I cannot believe Lackmeyer would be so honest about newsok.com! Good for him!


Well played, sir.




> Even then, there isn't a ton of negativity here. Especially now.


I haven't been on here as frequently as I used to, but I must say it is nice coming on here with no mention of how ugly OKC is (America's largest truck stop!), what OKC is "lacking" in, or some circlejerk on the qualities of Charlotte/Dallas/Little Rock, etc. Kind of like a breath of fresh air.

----------


## MFracas84

David is right. I have been guilty of it myself. In all honesty, we in OKC have a lot to be thankful for.

----------


## stlokc

ADaniel...you're right, the lack of knee-jerk, relentless negativity is a breath of fresh air. 

The next way to clear the air? How about no more "he-said, he-said, woe is me, my feelings are hurt, I'm not being acknowledged, I'm being acknowledged incorrectly..." For those of us that get on this site to learn about the goings-on in OKC, the pettiness is time consuming and pointless. It causes me to spend less time on the site, because I assume a significant portion of the conversation in the threads will be personality issues. 

Now, back to the "Mystery Tower."

----------


## BrettM2

> I cannot believe Lackmeyer would be so honest about newsok.com! Good for him!


I asked him if he meant the Oklahoman's editorial page and then he deleted his tweet.

----------


## HOT ROD

> This is exciting. However, driving around Oklahoma City this weekend, I was really taken aback by what I saw. This city is in great disrepair north, south, east and west. I hope we continue downtown growth, but I'd like to see divided thoroughfares, nice looking lamps in the new medians, replace old and aged signage, throw in a few fountains, so many possibilities. *This city is in dire need of some TLC in the way of beautification.
> 
> I only mention it here because this city won't be worth squat if we have 30 towers downtown and everything else is rundown*.


I think this should be the theme of MAPS IV - Civic beautification, along with Transit (expanded streetcar, added bus + commuter bus, express bus during rush hours, implementation of Commuter Rail and possible rapid streetcar). 

Finish the sidewalks, lighting, and bus stops; build tree farms at major entrance points (perhaps with statue(s) of important figures and/or fountains serving as anchors) and line thoroughfares with trees in addition to the aforementioned sidewalks, lighting, and bus stops.

To cement civic beautification, there needs to be zoning enforcement of existing regs + changes to the civic code requiring all new development adapt to design standards that encourage a sense of place and beauty. Obviously, the design standards would be different for the inner city than for the suburban tracts and those industrial vs. residential. However, I think regardless of the type of neighbourhood or location of the thoroughfare we should expect to have a sense of place and it should look pleasing to the eye. Luckily, OKC needs/will have quite a bit of development in all sectors so we could capitalize on the new projects without requiring existing to necessarily adapt beyond their current financial position.

Pete - feel free to move this to MAPS IV thread (or start one if there isn't); but I thought it was worth writing this as an expansion to Zookeeper's thoughts and how we could 'easily' make OKC a better place beyond the mystery towers to come.

----------


## Bellaboo

Steve's got a few Mystery towers mentioned in this article ......

What's next for downtown Oklahoma City? | News OK

'A new mid-rise tower is set to be built in the Arts District for a new OGE Energy Corp. headquarters,* with the prospect of additional mid- to high-rise towers possible on the block that for four decades was home to Stage Center. New mid- to high-rise towers also are quietly being contemplated in the Central Business District*, where office vacancy is scarce.'

----------


## stratosphere

> Wow.  Malee is growing up so fast!  She knows how to work a camera!


She has doubled in size over the last couple of years!

----------


## ChrisHayes

So is OG&E not building where Stage Center is??

----------


## BrettM2

> So is OG&E not building where Stage Center is??


On the north side of the block.

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## OkieNate

I know this is for sure the wrong thread for this but I fell like more people will see it here, rather than its proper place. Enjoy!

Oklahoma City Style Guide - Most Stylish Cities in America - Esquire

----------


## adaniel

Esquire Magazine? Damn, OKC is doin' it big!

Hilariously, I actually know someone who was in that photo of Ednas. And for the record, the burgers there are as gross as you would think...don't know why they would recommend that.

----------


## Teo9969

> Esquire Magazine? Damn, OKC is doin' it big!
> 
> Hilariously, I actually know someone who was in that photo of Ednas. And for the record, the burgers there are as gross as you would think...don't know why they would recommend that.


They recommended the burgers from Nic's, not Edna's

----------


## adaniel

Ummm...




> Edna’s is a classic dive bar that makes you feel at home the second you walk in the door. If the Lunch Box, which has reportedly sold an astounding 1.23 million, isn’t your jam – and there are several other varietals to choose from – you can always just get loose with the 75 cent draft beer special from 4 – 7 P.M. *Oh yeah, and they have food, too.*

----------


## Mississippi Blues

> Ummm...


It seems more likely that they were advertising the bar and they just mentioned the food as well. Not necessarily recommending it.

----------


## dankrutka

> I know this is for sure the wrong thread for this but I fell like more people will see it here, rather than its proper place. Enjoy!
> 
> Oklahoma City Style Guide - Most Stylish Cities in America - Esquire


Not a big fan of OKC being labeled as part of the south. Maybe southeast Oklahoma, but not OKC in my opinion. Of course, Oklahoma is very difficult to label geographically and culturally so I'm not trying to give the writer too hard of a time...

----------


## ljbab728

> Ummm...


That certainly doesn't sound like a recommendation of the food but, about that Mystery Tower now.   :Smile:

----------


## adaniel

> Not a big fan of OKC being labeled as part of the south. Maybe southeast Oklahoma, but not OKC in my opinion. Of course, Oklahoma is very difficult to label geographically and culturally so I'm not trying to give the writer too hard of a time...


While I agree with you, they are from NYC, so take it for what its worth. In my dealings with people up there, everything south of the latitude of Richmond VA and west of the Rockies is the south. OKC does has *some* southern influence and the writer seemed to imply that we are not part of the (in their words) "aw shucks" deep south. 




> That certainly doesn't sound like a recommendation of the food but, about that Mystery Tower now.


Sorry maybe I should be more specific next time. I've had the food from Ednas so I'm trying to prevent anyone from the gastrointestinal hell I suffered. If you want to eat there, you've been warned. Just make sure you're stocked with extra toilet paper  :Dizzy: 

Carry on.

----------


## Spartan

> This is exciting. However, driving around Oklahoma City this weekend, I was really taken aback by what I saw. This city is in great disrepair north, south, east and west. I hope we continue downtown growth, but I'd like to see divided thoroughfares, nice looking lamps in the new medians, replace old and aged signage, throw in a few fountains, so many possibilities. This city is in dire need of some TLC in the way of beautification.
> 
> I only mention it here because this city won't be worth squat if we have 30 towers downtown and everything else is rundown.


Some pigs you can't even put lipstick on. For most of OKC, ugly is its destiny, and it was designed and built with that very intent.

----------


## Spartan

> Okay, I think everyone has had enough of your one-note negative diatribe and agenda being interjected into every possible thread.
> 
> You're being granted a one-month vacation which will be made permanent if you can't learn to participate in at least a semi-constructive way.


As jubilant as this makes me feel, and shocked as well because I know how hard Pete tries to avoid that ban button, I just hope I don't ever come across as annoying and negative. There really is a difference between being worthless and stupid and actually offering good criticisms that come from wanting to see OKC grow and improve.

----------


## Rover

> Some pigs you can't even put lipstick on. For most of OKC, ugly is its destiny, and it was designed and built with that very intent.


This is good criticism?  Hmmm.  Very constructive input.  Come on, you're better than this.

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## Jim Kyle

> For most of OKC, ugly is its destiny, and it was designed and built with that very intent.


I hardly think that any part of the city was designed and built with the specific *intent* of being ugly. I do think that many of the structures were intended simply to be functional, with no care *either way* about beauty or ugliness. For example, there was quite an outcry about the demolition of the Hales Photo building on N Broadway -- but about the best that can be said about *any* (or at least most) of the buildings in Automobile Alley, from 5th north to 13th and excluding the former OPubCo building, is that they were and are functional. I doubt that any of them would win beauty prizes!

Dealing with the problems caused by a century of deferred maintenance, such as old and aged signage, needs doing -- and even a pig can be made attractive (at least to another pig).

----------


## SOONER8693

> Some pigs you can't even put lipstick on. For most of OKC, ugly is its destiny, and it was designed and built with that very intent.


And you expect people to take you seriously with this kind of stuff? Seriously?

----------


## AP

nm

----------


## Just the facts

> This is exciting. However, driving around Oklahoma City this weekend, I was really taken aback by what I saw. This city is in great disrepair north, south, east and west. I hope we continue downtown growth, but I'd like to see divided thoroughfares, nice looking lamps in the new medians, replace old and aged signage, throw in a few fountains, so many possibilities. This city is in dire need of some TLC in the way of beautification.
> 
> I only mention it here because this city won't be worth squat if we have 30 towers downtown and everything else is rundown.


You better get used to it because most of OKC was built without maintenance in mind.  The developers and city authorities relied on the growth model to pay for maintenance and we simply can't grow fast enough to cover the cost, and of course, nothing grows forever.  Another large problem with the growth model is that it requires exponential growth.  Just as nothing grows forever, it sure has heck doesn't exponential grow forever.

So what exactly is the growth model?  The idea is that building a road will open up future development that will then pay for maintenance of the road in the future.  The problem is that the NEW construction of that road doesn't have a source of funding, so they have to borrow the money (i.e. road bonds).  That causes a problem because that growth money is now being spent twice - once to pay back the bond for construction and again to pay for maintenance.  Of course, that defies mathematics because the money can't really be spent twice.  So how do they get around that?  Answer, by building an extension to the road and hope that the tax revenue growth along the NEW segment is enough to cover the short fall on the old segment.  Of course, this doesn't solve anything because the problem with the first segment is just transferred to the second segment.  Then they keep repeating that sequence expecting growth to continue forever, but since cost keep going up and density keeps going down it requires exponential growth.  Eventually it just collapses.

What they should have done is built how humans did it for 10,000 years and that was insure there was enough tax revenue collection along the infrastructure to not only pay for construction but also for maintenance and eventual replacement - but the idea of fiscal responsibility has totally been lost on almost everyone, all in the name of living the "American dream" (which was created by the Federal Government in 1949).




> The idea is that building a road will open up future development that will then pay for maintenance of the road in the future


Coincidentally, this was the exact same mistake made by early builders of OKCs streetcar system.  They had to keep building houses to cover the maintenance costs of what they already built that when the growth stopped they went bankrupt.

----------


## Spartan

I am curious who thinks a Walmart and a Ideal Home subdivision, staples of OKC sprawl, were ever intended to be beautiful. One of the eccentricities that have formed (or deformed) OKC sprawl is near-total market saturation by Walmart. 

We have this ostrich head in the sand mentality about that though, as indicated by the responses along the lines of, "Whaddya mean OKC is ugly? I have always lived at Sunnylane and MacArthur (or wherever makes no difference) and it's beautiful to me, and nothin else matters. We even got a new Oncue comin, and now that's a real big city amenity!"

I am curious how people can live in a state with such regimented liquor laws but then profess that the public sector is utterly powerless to break up a malignant monopoly like Walmart (perhaps limit Supercenter locations based on some criteria). Or just stop gleefully approving the damn building permits. The point is that OKC has to make up ground from how many years the Walmart saturation has set it back. We wonder why these are such exciting times for development and yet the statistical analysis of poverty and quality of life show things getting worse.

We have a great NBA team and towers sprouting out of the ground, which do nothing but give our failed city leadership a pass they don't deserve.

----------


## Just the facts

> I am curious who thinks a Walmart and a Ideal Home subdivision, staples of OKC sprawl, were ever intended to be beautiful. One of the eccentricities that have formed (or deformed) OKC sprawl is near-total market saturation by Walmart. 
> 
> We have this ostrich head in the sand mentality about that though, as indicated by the responses along the lines of, "Whaddya mean OKC is ugly? I have always lived at Sunnylane and MacArthur (or wherever makes no difference) and it's beautiful to me, and nothin else matters. We even got a new Oncue comin, and now that's a real big city amenity!"


All I can think of is this from the Declaration of Independence:




> Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.


While the subject matter is different the mentality is the same.  Familiarity breeds complacency.

Declaration of Freedom from Bad Development

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that developments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that people are more disposed to suffer, while bad developments are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the bad development to which they are accustomed.

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## OKCisOK4me

Wal-Mart is the new mystery tower?

Come on y'all... This thread is being derailed.

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## ABryant

> Wal-Mart is the new mystery tower?
> 
> Come on y'all... This thread is being derailed.


Everyone forgets the taco mayo taco shaped tower.

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## Rover

Some people don't want to discuss what the topics are.  They just want to rail on OKC, add their spin to history, and try to convince everyone that if only our leaders were as smart as them we would have utopia.  Gets old with the preaching.  And if you object to their whining, they accuse you of giving everyone a pass or being too optimistic.  They undervalue the effort the rest of us make towards making things better.  While they have some very good, salient and educated views a lot of the time, it gets lost in their vitriol and arrogance.

How many times can we hear that OKC is ugly, the people are stupid, our leaders are even more stupid (and corrupt), and our visible citizens only work for personal motives?  After a few hundred times it loses its effect.  

Since some of these moved away, it reminds me of the Will Rogers comment about the Okies who moved to California...."it raised the IQ of both states".

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> Everyone forgets the taco mayo taco shaped tower.


Wasn't there Waffle House too?

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## Laramie

Oklahoma City like many other U.S. cities have areas that need repair.  It's not something that you fix overnight;  especially,  if it didn't get that way overnight.  

Our city suffered neglect for many decades, those eyesores grew scabs.  Now, those scabs need to be surgically removed.  Sure, there's beauty on the surface in a lot of cities, the true heart of a city is its citizens.  Oklahoma City tops a lot of cities in that regards. 

   

  
Let's maintain the cosmetics of what we have as we prepare a better place and quality of life for our citizens.  Keep the momentum of MAPS.

*"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.*

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## Jim Kyle

> Since some of these moved away, it reminds me of the Will Rogers comment about the Okies who moved to California...."it raised the IQ of both states".


I note that neither of the most recent negative posters still resides in the state.

It also strikes me that bchris02 was becoming much less negative, yet got sent to timeout. Are some posters more equal than others?

And yes, the thread is so far derailed that it might be best to have it locked. Opinion, Pete?

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## Jim Kyle

> Coincidentally, this was the exact same mistake made by early builders of OKCs streetcar system.  They had to keep building houses to cover the maintenance costs of what they already built that when the growth stopped they went bankrupt.


Have you actually read what happened in those days? According to the histories, it was the exact opposite of what you've said. Anton Classen was first and foremost a developer of housing additions. He got into the streetcar business in order to be able to sell those houses, and he created most of what we now know as historic neighborhoods. While doing so, he helped heal a rift in the Methodist church and donated the land on which the original University in OKC was built (at NW 18, two blocks west of the boulevard that bears his name). He also donated land for Classen High School, and pr3etty much single-handedly led the way to the city's reaching a population of 100,000 by the time he died in 1922.

Blame for the demise of the streetcar system can be placed primarily on Henry Ford's creation of an automobile for the masses (and building an assembly plant for it right here in OKC), and secondarily on lack of a long-term business plan or vision on the part of surviving management after Classen's death.

I don't contest the fact that OKC needs a solid long-range vision, such as that possessed a century ago by Anton Classen, but much of the sprawl problem we have today stems from the disastrous competition with Houston for the title of "Largest City in the Nation Based on Square Mileage" that we undertook in the 50s and have had to live with, ever since. While we won, it was a pyhrric victory...

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## NWOKCGuy

It's almost like Chris was Spartan's alter ego. Now that he's been banned, he's being forced to talk about Walmart saturation and how ugly OKC is with his actual login.

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## PhiAlpha

> I note that neither of the most recent negative posters still resides in the state.
> 
> It also strikes me that bchris02 was becoming much less negative, yet got sent to timeout. Are some posters more equal than others?
> 
> And yes, the thread is so far derailed that it might be best to have it locked. Opinion, Pete?


I agree that BChris has had spurts of less negativity recently, but he still was pretty heavy on the troll type antagonistically negative posts. If not for his history of extreme baseless negativity, people probably wouldn't have been as sensitive to his more recent posts, but they had gotten to a point of completely derailing almost every thread he posted in (and even after he was banned apparently). While I think Sparten and sometimes JTF are way too negative at times (and could probably tone it down a notch), at least their criticisms are mostly free of hyperbole (this thread excluded) and far more often than not, constructive. BChris was almost never constructive or solution oriented and was almost turning into a cartoon character. 

It's the difference between "The suburban areas of OKC have become ugly which has been caused by sprawl and the city's inability to keep up with maintenance because of it. We should do everything we can to slow or stop sprawl" (paraphrasing obviously) and "Much of OKC is mindnumbingly ugly and run down. There are a few nice corridors but they are the exception moreso than the rule. A lot of people have called this town "America's largest truck stop." That perception is somewhat grounded in reality." 

Posts like "everything is better in Charlotte, Tulsa, Dallas, (insert city)", "Tornadoes are the worst thing in the world, why would any one ever want to live here", "OKC is a wasteland for young professionals", "Walmart has ruined all retail in OKC and it can never be fixed", and "OKC suckz" don't add anything to the discussion (I paraphrased and left out many of the hyperbolic adjectives that make these posts more awesome).

----------


## Pete

It's not a good idea to discuss other posters and how we moderate the board on the open forum.

If there are any questions or concerns, please contact me directly.  I'm very good about responding.

Thanks.

----------


## Pete

Now, back to topic please.

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## jccouger

This thread is the cigarette of OKCtalk. I Just keep coming back to it but it never does anything for me but waste time, make the board cancerous (look at how negative this thread has turned over the last half year) & give me a bad taste in my mouth.

Devon center made tower talk cool, and gave us hope that towers were just gonna start sprouting out of the ground. We all need to realize it was an anomaly, and IF another tower is proposed then I want to talk about but I've gotten over the sugar rush and I don't really expect anything to happen anymore. Doesn't mean I won't keep coming back to this thread when I see new posts, but seriously I don't believe ANY new towers will be built within the next decade until I see a public announcement of such. I don't care how much smoke there has been, deals fall through all the time. Call me negative if you want, jut how I see it at this point. 

Maybe each specific "lead" we have on a possible tower needs its own thread. I just think this thread should be locked at this point.

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## Pete

I still think we are close to an official announcement about a tower for Main & Hudson.

Pickard Chilton and Hines have been in town recently, and my contacts tell me this is going to happen; about 800,000 square feet on that site and it will connect into the Devon Energy Center via skybridge.  Best estimate is 30 to 45 stories.

One North Hudson will soon have it's last tenant leave and my understanding is that it will not be redeveloped any time soon, and instead will serve as construction offices as it did for Devon.

We also know that Clayco (and perhaps others) will submit a proposal for the property south of Stage Center, and you can be sure any structures will at least be mid-rise and could be high-rise.  The convention center hotel will be mid-rise and perhaps high-rise.  OG&E will be mid-rise.  There are other projects in various stages of planning.

We seem to be in the eye of the hurricane, with a bit of calm before we see several large projects -- including the redevelopment of First National Center -- take off.

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## ChrisHayes

Approximately how many stories would an 800,000 square foot high rise be?

----------


## Just the facts

> and it will connect into the Devon Energy Center via skybridge


Does Devon ever have any intention of filling their retail space along Hudson?  My guess is No they don't.

----------


## Bullbear

well 800,000 sq ft could be any number of stories. depending on the footprint ect.  Devon Tower is 1,800,000 square feet  however that includes the 6 story Rotunda and base structure to the west of the actual tower.. so it really is anyones guess.  this is excited and look forward to some announcements.

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## BrettM2

> Does Devon ever have any intention of filling their retail space along Hudson?  My guess is No they don't.


I thought those were faux spaces rather than actual retail.

----------


## Pete

> well 800,000 sq ft could be any number of stories. depending on the footprint ect.  Devon Tower is 1,800,000 square feet  however that includes the 6 story Rotunda and base structure to the west of the actual tower.. so it really is anyones guess.  this is excited and look forward to some announcements.


The property at Main & Hudson is not very big which will limit the size of the footprint and floor plates.

But assuming somewhere near 20,000 SF per floor, that would be approx. 40 stories.

With Pickard Chilton involved, you can bet one of the goals is to balance out the skyline; slot this tower somewhere between Devon and Chase.

You may remember that PC said they took cues from First National and athough surrounding buildings when they designed Devon Tower.

----------


## Pete

> I thought those were faux spaces rather than actual retail.


They are false fronts for now; there is concrete block only a few feet behind the glass.

But they were specifically designed to be removed so retail/service could be added at a later date.

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## Bellaboo

I think we'll have action as soon as the main street garage opens up, either in an announcement or the project actually starting. Is the old auto hotel being used today ? Also, the new 3 story addition to the City East garage should be completing around the same time. 

I have zero inside info, just a guess.

----------


## Rover

> Does Devon ever have any intention of filling their retail space along Hudson?  My guess is No they don't.


By itself, Devon's spaces are a non appealing retail area.  But, with retail space in the new parking garage, Devon opening their "faux" space, and a new tower with retail on the bottom, the new OGE tower and possible associated housing/other development on their south, this could actually become a nice pocket of retail.  Then, if the Arcade joins in and with what is happening in Film Row, this could be a great area.  I think 21C knows exactly what they are doing by being on the west side of downtown.  Things are looking way up for retail on this side.

----------


## Pete

The possibility of retail in that Devon space on Hudson would improve if there *wasn't* a skybridge built from the proposed Main & Hudson tower, as it is directly across the street.

----------


## Anonymous.

Skybridges and tunnels need to be discontinued in OKC. However, we all know that will never happen. And with the street interaction that Devon already has, there is virtually zero chance of them not building a bridge if they have a building next door.

----------


## catch22

DowntownOKC Inc. even supports them.

They posted a photo on instagram several weeks back praising them. 

If the people who socially promote walkability and urban design don't "get it" then I don't think anyone in power will. 

Just more stuff my generation will need to tear out when it's our time to be in charge. 2 steps forward and 2 steps backward in this city on walkability issues.

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> Skybridges and tunnels need to be discontinued in OKC.


Why?

----------


## Just the facts

> Originally Posted by Anonymous.
> 
> 
> Skybridges and tunnels need to be discontinued in OKC.
> 
> 
> Why?


The simplest answer is that retail merchants and potential retail customers should be on the same horizontal plane so that commerce can ensue.  That commerce then generates the sales taxes and property taxes that fund the maintenance of the street (and other infrastructure) that both the businesses and customers use.  That block of Hudson already exists so wouldn't it make sense that it also generate tax revenue to help pay for it?

----------


## Of Sound Mind

> The simplest answer is that retail merchants and potential retail customers should be on the same horizontal plane so that commerce can ensue.  That commerce then generates the sales taxes and property taxes that fund the maintenance of the street (and other infrastructure) that both the businesses and customers use.


Sounds good in theory... but as someone who is downtown five to six days every week, the existence of the skywalks and tunnels does not impact whether or not I patronize the downtown retail merchants. On good weather days, based simply on personal, daily observation, there is much more activity on the street than in the skywalks and tunnels and retailers have plenty of opportunity to draw customers. On bad weather days, retailers are not likely to see great benefit to  the absence of skywalks and tunnels as people are inclined to move much  more quickly to their ultimate destination bypassing any retailers. IMHO, the absence of skywalks and tunnels would do more harm than good — more inconvenience and aggravation for downtowners than any additional benefit retailers might see.

----------


## Spartan

> Some people don't want to discuss what the topics are.  They just want to rail on OKC, add their spin to history, and try to convince everyone that if only our leaders were as smart as them we would have utopia.  Gets old with the preaching.  And if you object to their whining, they accuse you of giving everyone a pass or being too optimistic.  They undervalue the effort the rest of us make towards making things better.  While they have some very good, salient and educated views a lot of the time, it gets lost in their vitriol and arrogance.
> 
> How many times can we hear that OKC is ugly, the people are stupid, our leaders are even more stupid (and corrupt), and our visible citizens only work for personal motives?  After a few hundred times it loses its effect.  
> 
> Since some of these moved away, it reminds me of the Will Rogers comment about the Okies who moved to California...."it raised the IQ of both states".


I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make besides something contrarian. I think, from your tone.

----------


## HotStuff80

Just wondering, since I don't live in OKC but have friends and relatives still in the city, could tunnels also be used to weather tornados?  Or... might they fill with water?

----------


## BrettM2

> Just wondering, since I don't live in OKC but have friends and relatives still in the city, could tunnels also be used to weather tornados?  Or... might they fill with water?


I know several sections flooded during the storms last year.  I'm not sure how many areas are problematic or if the whole system is though.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Just wondering, since I don't live in OKC but have friends and relatives still in the city, could tunnels also be used to weather tornados?  Or... might they fill with water?


Knock on wood, but the OKC metro area has yet to even have a tornado watch this year....

----------


## kevinpate

> Knock on wood, but the OKC metro area has yet to even have a tornado watch this year....


oh great now you gone and done it
 :Wink:

----------


## Anonymous.

> Knock on wood, but the OKC metro area has yet to even have a tornado watch this year....


Technically, OKC has been in one tornado watch in 2014.

----------


## G.Walker

If you live in Oklahoma, you are always on tornado watch, lol.

----------


## Bellaboo

> If you live in Oklahoma, you are always on tornado watch, lol.


I did a search on tornados the other day. From 1950 to 2011, Denver, Miami and St. Petersburg, Florida each have had more tornados than OKC. Hard to believe but it's true.

----------


## Rajah

We've replaced our tornadoes with earthquakes.

----------


## soonerguru

> DowntownOKC Inc. even supports them.
> 
> They posted a photo on instagram several weeks back praising them. 
> 
> If the people who socially promote walkability and urban design don't "get it" then I don't think anyone in power will. 
> 
> Just more stuff my generation will need to tear out when it's our time to be in charge. 2 steps forward and 2 steps backward in this city on walkability issues.


Downtown OKC Inc. is not an independent agency. Just look at their board. Other than fluffy, feel-good PR, any opinions expressed by them should be taken with a grain of salt.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Expect a mystery tower(s) story by Steve for Tuesday's paper.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Expect a mystery tower(s) story by Steve for Tuesday's paper.


This is par for the damn course. On vacation starting Wednesday to Pacific Northwest, Canada & Alaska. Guess i'll just have to wait.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> This is par for the damn course. On vacation starting Wednesday to Pacific Northwest, Canada & Alaska. Guess i'll just have to wait.


We have internet here.

----------


## HOT ROD

haha, yep sure do.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

It's up now

----------


## dmoor82

Between two and six more towers? I would be in skyscraper heaven!

----------


## Bellaboo

> We have internet here.


I bet there is, and good internet at that. I just hate to waste time on the hotel computer when we've got other plans......

----------


## G.Walker

Oklahoma City's report of two new downtown towers may prove to be conservative | NewsOK.com

----------


## Bellaboo

> Oklahoma City's report of two new downtown towers may prove to be conservative | NewsOK.com


Nice little tease here.

----------


## Pete

More, more, more!!!

We should see the OG&E and Clayco plans in early October and I'm really hoping plans will break for Main & Hudson before the end of the year.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Expect a mystery tower(s) story by Steve for* Tuesday's paper*.


Oh crap.... I don't leave till Wednesday... life is wonderful !

----------


## HOT ROD

omg, up to six more towers in downtown. Boomtown!

----------


## sroberts24

Steve just said on twitter people might be pleasantly surprised by the height of the OG&E tower when it is announced!!!!!

----------


## HOT ROD

and I LOVE the 'and may be higher when built' reference to the mid-rise tower for OGE Corp.

----------


## Bellaboo

> Steve just said on twitter people might be pleasantly surprised by the height of the OG&E tower when it is announced!!!!!


I'd guess this goes back to Clayco saying they realize height is important.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Considering that Class A office space is still an issue downtown, I don't see the market being an issue.

----------


## BrettM2

Will any of this push Cotter to renovate his building? I know people say he's cheap but it seems he's on the verge of being left behind.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

I'm not worried about Cotter as much as I am Dowell. Have you seen that guy's garage? No telling what his residential tower is gonna look like...smh.

----------


## BrettM2

> I'm not worried about Cotter as much as I am Dowell. Have you seen that guy's garage? No telling what his residential tower is gonna look like...smh.


It'll make Soviet architecture look inspiring...

----------


## ljbab728

The full article also mentions this about the Main and Hudson location.




> Several sources have confirmed to me this tower is likely to be developed as office space, with the tenants including one major company seeking to lease additional space while another tenant might end up consolidating its downtown and suburban operations in the same building.


He also talks about the First National Bank Drive-In site and the possible Dowell residential tower at 5th and Dewey.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5297490?embargo=1

----------


## hoya

> I'm not worried about Cotter as much as I am Dowell. Have you seen that guy's garage? No telling what his residential tower is gonna look like...smh.


Honestly... that doesn't bother me.  Having a few ugly towers downtown will just make the pretty ones look nicer.  I think each building has its own sort of charm.

If you gave me my choice, and Dowell was going to add a half dozen of these to the city, I'd say go for it.  I'd be happy as can be.



or this



As long as it interacts with the street well (curse you, JTF for making me look at that), I'll be happy.

----------


## ChrisHayes

When is the height of OG&E Tower supposed to be announced?

----------


## David

I so cannot wait for all the doom-saying about the OG&E tower to come to nothing.

----------


## G.Walker

The best part of the whole article is the likelihood that the OG&E Tower will end up taller than originally projected, all the other office tower mentions are still up in the air.

----------


## jccouger

> I so cannot wait for all the doom-saying about the OG&E tower to come to nothing.


Or maybe the out crying & disapproval led OGE to reconsider their plans regarding height?

----------


## Urbanized

I love to chew the fat on this board as much as anybody, and I agree that folks on here have influenced some projects - for instance Guyutes - through _actions_. But I'm sorry...do you really think a few people whining about building height on a message board are going to cause a publicly-traded corporation to make height alterations to their headquarters, resulting in tens of millions if not more in additional expense? If they are adding height it is because a pro forma told them to.

To be honest, I always suspected (and hoped) the initially-announced height was intentionally kept low so that the developers could under-promise and then over-deliver.

----------


## jccouger

> I love to chew the fat on this board as much as anybody, and I agree that folks on here have influenced some projects - for instance Guyutes - through _actions_. But I'm sorry...do you really think a few people whining about building height on a message board are going to cause a publicly-traded corporation to make height alterations to their headquarters, resulting in tens of millions if not more in additional expense? If they are adding height it is because a pro forma told them to.
> 
> To be honest, I always suspected (and hoped) the initially-announced height was intentionally kept low so that the developers could under-promise and then over-deliver.


Lol no, I don't. But I like to think my time here isn't completely wasted even though it mostly is. But I do think a company who is looking to invest in Oklahoma City & downtown would keep a pulse on the public perception. And this is the best place to do that.

----------


## hoya

> I love to chew the fat on this board as much as anybody, and I agree that folks on here have influenced some projects - for instance Guyutes - through _actions_. But I'm sorry...do you really think a few people whining about building height on a message board are going to cause a publicly-traded corporation to make height alterations to their headquarters, resulting in tens of millions if not more in additional expense? If they are adding height it is because a pro forma told them to.
> 
> To be honest, I always suspected (and hoped) the initially-announced height was intentionally kept low so that the developers could under-promise and then over-deliver.


If this board reflects the opinions of the community at all, perhaps OG&E saw dissatisfaction with other people as well.

----------


## soondoc

Pete or anyone else, could you do some digging on what you think the height might end up being?  I am going to say 26 stories and 450 feet.  Also, with what was announced could someone photo shop some buildings that you think might apply with what we will end up with so we can get a better picture of what our skyline will look like in a few years.  Please include the Convention Center and a 25 story hotel.

----------


## Urbanized

> If this board reflects the opinions of the community at all, perhaps OG&E saw dissatisfaction with other people as well.


Yeah...I still don't think they (or their developer) make a decision regarding tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars in additional expense based on any reasons other than financial/business projections.

----------


## hoya

> Yeah...I still don't think they (or their developer) make a decision regarding tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars in additional expense based on any reasons other than financial/business projections.


I think guys listen to their wives, even when it comes to hundreds of millions of dollars.  I'm sure OKC's tight market for office space couldn't have hurt.

We don't even know that they're going to release plans for a taller building, we're just guessing.  My guess is the next proposal we see may not increase the square footage of the building all that much, but it's more of a traditional tower.  It will be taller, with a smaller base.  This would allow for a potential second tower in the same space as the original design.  It doesn't cost OG&E any more money, and it satisfies people who want height.

----------


## shawnw

Maybe they can learn from Devon, who made certain projections about their growth, which turned out to be too conservative and now they need more space, just two years later?

----------


## shawnw

> I think guys listen to their wives, even when it comes to hundreds of millions of dollars.


I've heard the way to get otherwise low-priority things done at Tinker is to get in good with the ABW commander's wife and/or her circle of friends...

----------


## sgt. pepper

Somebody said yesterday Steve is to have a mystery tower article Tuesday. Today is Tuesday....are we still looking for an article from Steve?

----------


## catch22

Did you even look at newsok?

----------


## warreng88

> Somebody said yesterday Steve is to have a mystery tower article Tuesday. Today is Tuesday....are we still looking for an article from Steve?


Nope, it's there, you just have to access it through mobile, not the website unless you have access which it feels like so few people on the website do.

----------


## MFracas84

The story is just more of the same. No specifics and generalizations that something "MIGHT" be coming. Pretty similar to the story from two years ago. I hope something comes but it is hard to get excited anymore.

----------


## David

> Oklahoma City's report of two new downtown towers may prove to be conservative | NewsOK.com


^ Tuesday's article.

----------


## Bellaboo

> The story is just more of the same. No specifics and generalizations that something* "MIGHT" be coming*. Pretty similar to the story from two years ago. I hope something comes but it is hard to get excited anymore.


You won't get specifics until there is an official announcement. Other than the first go around for OGE, there haven't been any announcements.

He's pretty much confirmed the Main & Hudson location and Hudson from Reno to Sheridan block.

----------


## sgt. pepper

OK, that is what I thought, Tuesday's article came out Monday. Yes, same stuff that we have been hearing
for years.

----------


## MFracas84

Of course not. I really really hope for something and I am not saying there won't. I am just saying that after two plus years of "a good source" here and a "reliable source" there. I personally have a tough time getting excited about it.

----------


## Pete

There will be specifics revealed on Oct. 6th when OCURA reveals all the responses to the RFP for the land south of the proposed OG&E Tower.

Since Clayco will be one of those submitting plans and they have publicly stated they want to tie into the OG&E development, you can almost be assured that more solid plans for that property will be revealed as well.

Also, the Main & Hudson tower is almost certainly going to happen, it's just a matter of when they release the details.  I really do think it is coming soon.

Hopefully all that will be enough for us to chew on while some of these other projects continue to percolate.

----------


## MFracas84

Sounds great! Thanks.

----------


## modernism

> The story is just more of the same. No specifics and generalizations that something "MIGHT" be coming. Pretty similar to the story from two years ago. I hope something comes but it is hard to get excited anymore.


I agree, we can almost guarantee that they will be a "office towers coming soon" article from Steve at least once or twice a year, lol:

Downtown Oklahoma City skyline is set for more growth | News OK

http://newsok.com/steve-lackmeyer-an...rticle/3760305

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Hmmm.... I guess I just don't see the problem. 

Steve posted articles saying OKC is getting more office towers. Doesn't give a date just says we will see them soon and he is right. So when we do see them, you can't say we weren't warned. So what is the  problem? 

It's quite simple actually :when you see an article that says our skyline is set for growth or we are getting some office towers soon, don't read it. When you see an article that says ONE tower plans revealed 500+ft...... Click and read it

----------


## adaniel

> I agree, we can almost guarantee that they will be a "office towers coming soon" article from Steve at least once or twice a year, lol:
> 
> Downtown Oklahoma City skyline is set for more growth | News OK
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK


You all act like this is the same as building some tract home. 

We are talking about 10's of millions of dollars at stake in what is still a shaky lending market. 

You want the "behind the scene" look. You got it. Don't complain when you don't like what you see.

----------


## Pete

Things are definitely firming up.

Even though we live in the right-now information age, skyscraper projects still take years.

The good news is that between Steve and OKCTalk, you can be assured of getting renderings and solid info. as soon as humanly possible.


As has been stated many, many times:  If you are frustrated with speculation stay off this thread.  Concrete data will be posted to the appropriate threads when available.

----------


## MFracas84

I am sorry guys for throwing in the sarcasm or lack of confidence in my post. I don't want my post to start a trend of negativity. I am cautiously optimistic we'll hear something soon. I do appreciate the information people provide on here.

----------


## gopokes88

I think many on here underestimate the complexity of building a skyscraper in today's world. 
So lots of ideas get shot around constantly, people demand to know all the rumors. So Steve tracks them down and reports them. However, as always, some don't pan out, so people get mad at Steve for reporting it in the first place? :facepalm: 

I do find that if both Steve and Pete are reporting similar vague things, it's probably going to come to fruition.

----------


## Teo9969

> I so cannot wait for all the doom-saying about the OG&E tower to come to nothing.


If the tower is taller but the development of that site still only comes in at $100M, I won't particularly be much happier with the proposal. I never thought it was awful to begin with, just that it wasn't the greatest. $100M for the best (currently available) lot in downtown would be disappointing no matter what.

$250M would still be a 1/3 of Devon's cost, but a lot easier to swallow to say good-bye to Stage Center.

----------


## Spartan

> There will be specifics revealed on Oct. 6th when OCURA reveals all the responses to the RFP for the land south of the proposed OG&E Tower.
> 
> Since Clayco will be one of those submitting plans and they have publicly stated they want to tie into the OG&E development, you can almost be assured that more solid plans for that property will be revealed as well.
> 
> Also, the Main & Hudson tower is almost certainly going to happen, it's just a matter of when they release the details.  I really do think it is coming soon.
> 
> Hopefully all that will be enough for us to chew on while some of these other projects continue to percolate.


Question - how little can they _possibly_ get away with providing?

I've never done an OKC RFP myself but we know proof of financing isn't required. What kind of plans do they want? The 80% complete or just schematics? And I'd even argue you want some wiggle room bc once you've already spent your design budget... You've spent your design budget. The more predevelopment financing you roll into these projects the more it complicates construction financing, etc.

I think it is better to go to the public boards with just a concept so that you set yourself up to actually integrate feedback.

----------


## Spartan

> I agree, we can almost guarantee that they will be a "office towers coming soon" article from Steve at least once or twice a year, lol:
> 
> Downtown Oklahoma City skyline is set for more growth | News OK
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK


My favorite is the one that comes out every few months with a headline like "Actually 6 new skyscrapers may be conservative!"

And so what? Downtown development is a GOOD thing to sensationalize. I love the work that Pete and Steve have done even if I do appreciate the occasional mystery tower wise crack. 3 story mixed use and historic buildings don't capture an entire city's imagination - the only danger is that we put silly dreams ahead of the building blocks we do have and do need.

----------


## Pete

The great thing about RFP responses is that they are designed to impress the recipients, which means they usually go all out with detailed renderings and plans.

And, after Oct. 6th, all the applications are in the public domain.

We will see very detailed plans for the south parcel and in Clayco's case, I'm pretty darn sure we'll see a lot more detail for the OG&E development as well.  Might even included another tower that Clayco is developing, as Rainey Williams had said he wanted to flip at least one and perhaps two parcels.

Keep in mind that Clayco had already approached the City with a development plan for the south parcel but then it was decided -- rightfully so -- that the property should be put out to RFP so others could bid in pursuit of the highest and best use.  All this means that Clayco was ready to buy a couple of months ago, so you can bet they've had a pretty clear idea of what that want to do.

They have their own in-house architecture and construction firms, so come October I expect a great presentation from them.  And keep in mind, one of their main principals is Frankfort who took a run at Stage Center before he joined Clayco.

Pretty sure there will be at least one other serious submission as well.


I expect that come October 6th we'll see plenty of pretty pictures.

----------


## hoya

I don't think Steve would be bringing up 6 potential towers unless he had a pretty good idea that we would be getting several of them.  I don't think anyone can reasonably expect all 6 to come to fruition, there are too many variables and unknowns for that.  We know we're getting one for sure, and another almost for sure, with proposals due on a third.  Those three should make us very happy, and if we get more than that, I'll be ecstatic.

Steve has a pretty solid repuation as far as I'm concerned, and he wouldn't be saying 6 towers unless he had 6 different groups telling him about towers.  While I love OKCTalk, and we get all the news here first, we also get a lot of speculation first.  Somebody can hear a rumor and it's posted within 30 seconds.  But there's also no fallout for being wrong.  If Pete posts that he heard from a good source that XYZ was happening, and then it doesn't, no harm no foul.  Most of us understand that is the nature of message boards and the price of instant updates.  But I expect a full published news article to be backed up by facts in a way that a message board post (even by a well-connected poster with good sources) isn't.

----------


## Pete

Here's my take on this; percentages indicate probability / confidence level.  Heights are best guesses.

1.  OG&E Tower.  99%; 15 to 25 stories.
2. Main & Hudson Tower.  75%; 30 to 45 stories.
3. South of OG&E 1.  60%; 20 to 40 stories.
4. South of OG&E 2.  60%; 20 to 40 stories.
5. OG&E site.  50%; 15 to 25 stories.
6. B of A Drive-Thru.  40%; 20 to 30 stories.
7. Dowell Residential.  30%; 10 to 20 stories.
8. Convention Hotel.  60%; 20 to 30 stories.
9. 4th & EK Gaylord.  10%; 20 to 30 stories.
10. Bricktown Marriott.  60%; 10 to 20 stories.

----------


## soondoc

"So, you're saying there's a chance"!!   :Smile:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Here's my take on this; percentages indicate probability / confidence level.  Heights are best guesses.
> 
> 1.  OG&E Tower.  99%; 15 to 25 stories.
> 2. Main & Hudson Tower.  75%; 30 to 45 stories.
> 3. South of OG&E 1.  60%; 20 to 40 stories.
> 4. South of OG&E 2.  60%; 20 to 40 stories.
> 5. OG&E site.  50%; 15 to 25 stories.
> 6. B of A Drive-Thru.  40%; 20 to 30 stories.
> 7. Dowell Residential.  30%; 10 to 20 stories.
> ...


I thought at one point the BoA drive thru was going to be fairly tall, as in 40+ stories. Not sure why I think that, but is that not the case?

----------


## Pete

I have never heard any specifics about the BofA site, other than people were looking and interested and core samples have been taken.

----------


## warreng88

> I thought at one point the BoA drive thru was going to be fairly tall, as in 40+ stories. Not sure why I think that, but is that not the case?


This might have been where you got that from, but it is the Preftakes block, not BOA:




> The property at Main & Hudson is not very big which will limit the size of the footprint and floor plates.
> 
> But assuming somewhere near 20,000 SF per floor, that would be approx. 40 stories.
> 
> With Pickard Chilton involved, you can bet one of the goals is to balance out the skyline; slot this tower somewhere between Devon and Chase.
> 
> You may remember that PC said they took cues from First National and athough surrounding buildings when they designed Devon Tower.

----------


## catcherinthewry

> If Pete posts that he heard from a good source that XYZ was happening, and then it doesn't, no harm no foul.


In my experience Pete takes this site very seriously and if he attaches his name to speculation then he feels very good about his source.  He is not held to the same standard that Steve is, but I trust his judgment every bit as much as I do Steve's.

----------


## hoya

> In my experience Pete takes this site very seriously and if he attaches his name to speculation then he feels very good about his source.  He is not held to the same standard that Steve is, but I trust his judgment every bit as much as I do Steve's.


I don't disagree.  As I said, I hold print journalism (even if its online now) to a different standard.  It's a different method of communication.  It is more formal, I guess you could say.

----------


## warreng88

If you go to Newsok.com's post of the tower story on facebook, you can see that "Thunder" is still alive and well. And he made fun of Steve in one of the comments...

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> If you go to Newsok.com's post of the tower story on facebook, you can see that "Thunder" is still alive and well. And he made fun of Steve in one of the comments...


I've always wondered about that dude and now I know. Very interesting character.

----------


## dmoor82

Deleted

----------


## dmoor82

I actually liked Thunder, but he was odd and quite young.

----------


## jccouger

> Here's my take on this; percentages indicate probability / confidence level.  Heights are best guesses.
> 
> 1.  OG&E Tower.  99%; 15 to 25 stories.
> 2. Main & Hudson Tower.  75%; 30 to 45 stories.
> 3. South of OG&E 1.  60%; 20 to 40 stories.
> 4. South of OG&E 2.  60%; 20 to 40 stories.
> 5. OG&E site.  50%; 15 to 25 stories.
> 6. B of A Drive-Thru.  40%; 20 to 30 stories.
> 7. Dowell Residential.  30%; 10 to 20 stories.
> ...


I take it by this post that the Lumberyard site is officially a complete pipe dream?

----------


## Pete

I've got some good news and some bad news for the Main & Hudson site.

I'm told it's almost certainly going to happen, and soon.  So that's good.

But I'm also told my height projections are too high; looks like this might turn out to be 20 to 25 stories.

----------


## gopokes88

> I've got some good news and some bad news for the Main & Hudson site.
> 
> I'm told it's almost certainly going to happen, and soon.  So that's good.
> 
> But I'm also told my height projections are too high; looks like this might turn out to be 20 to 25 stories.


If it's 25 at 16ft a floor that's 400ft. Not too shabby at all.

----------


## Spartan

What about the Bricktown Lumberyard Towers? You forgot those 20-45 story towers that we are getting!

----------


## Anonymous.

Main/Hudson would be the Devon #2, right? So I can see how they don't want to undermine their own existing tower.

----------


## JRod1980

> Here's my take on this; percentages indicate probability / confidence level.  Heights are best guesses.
> 
> 1.  OG&E Tower.  99%; 15 to 25 stories.
> 2. Main & Hudson Tower.  75%; 30 to 45 stories.
> 3. South of OG&E 1.  60%; 20 to 40 stories.
> 4. South of OG&E 2.  60%; 20 to 40 stories.
> 5. OG&E site.  50%; 15 to 25 stories.
> 6. B of A Drive-Thru.  40%; 20 to 30 stories.
> 7. Dowell Residential.  30%; 10 to 20 stories.
> ...



Just to make it an easier comparison, here's what we currently have in OKC:

Devon Energy Center
Height 844 ft, Floors 50, Year Completed 2012

Chase Tower
Height 500 ft, Floors 36, Year Completed 1971

First National Center
Height 493 ft, Floors 33, Year Completed 1931	

City Place Tower
Height 440 ft, Floors 33, Year Completed 1931	

Oklahoma Tower
Height 434 ft, Floors 31, Year Completed 1982	

SandRidge Center
Height 393 ft, Floors 30, Year Completed 1973	

Valliance Bank Tower (Outside of Downtown)
Height 321 ft, Floors 22, Year Completed 1984	

Bank of Oklahoma Plaza	
Height 310 ft, Floors 16, Year Completed 1972

----------


## shawnw

I'm good with 25. I'd rather they built something that filled up quickly and spurred demand for yet another tower vs something they had trouble filling thus killing the market.

----------


## JRod1980

If the listed locations were constructed with 16ft floors, here's the minimum and maximum height for each building:

OG&E Tower, 
Height 240ft - 400ft, Floors 15 to 25

Main & Hudson Tower
Height 480ft - 720ft, Floors 30 to 45

South of OG&E 1
Height 320ft - 640ft, Floors 20 to 40

South of OG&E 2
Height 320ft - 640ft, Floors 20 to 40

OG&E site
Height 240ft - 400ft, Floors 15 to 25

B of A Drive-Thru
Height 320ft - 480ft, Floors 20 to 30

Dowell Residential
Height 160ft - 320ft, Floors 10 to 20

Convention Hotel
Height 320ft - 480ft, Floors 20 to 30

4th & EK Gaylord
Height 320ft - 480ft, Floors 20 to 30

Bricktown Marriott
Height 160ft - 320ft, Floors 10 to 20

----------


## Jeepnokc

For comparison, does anyone know off the top of their head the height in feet of Chase, Devon,  and leadership?

----------


## Pete

Chase is 500 feet, Devon is 850.

----------


## warreng88

One Leadership Square (North Tower) is 308 feet/22 stories and Two Leadership Square (South Tower) is 224 feet/16 stories.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

This really shouldn't be much of a surprise, but I'll say it anyways.... I hope it is much higher than 25 stories.

----------


## shawnw

(I almost added to my post:  Cue PluPlan demand for 300 stories)

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> (I almost added to my post:  Cue PluPlan demand for 300 stories)


Hey man... at least I'm not like this Thunder dude who was demanding on Facebook the other every new skyscraper should be required to have a minimum of 800ft.

Don't get me wrong here, I'll take this over nothing. Still very excited even if all of these happen and they're under 30 stories; I'd just prefer taller.

----------


## Laramie

*Reports of new downtown towers take hope sky-high:* 
_By Steve Lackmeyer Published: August 19, 2014_
  
   


_Consider what is already public knowledge: Rainey Williams Jr. is preparing to build a mid-rise tower (though it may end up higher when built) for OGE Energy Corp...

Serious discussions, meanwhile, have been going on for months about another tower to be built at Hudson Avenue and Main Street. The block, acquired by Nick Preftakes over the past decade, has long been associated with potential expansion of Devon Energy, which has its own 50-story headquarters to the east.

...Count it all up and up to six new towers could be added to the downtown Oklahoma City skyline over the next few years  and this does not include the prospect of a 15- to 20-story conference hotel that civic leaders hope to see built next to the future convention center at Reno and Robinson Avenues._

http://oklahoman.com/reports-of-new-...rticle/5299202

Get ready to see some major changes in the Oklahoma City skyline over the next five years.    Lackmeyer did not  elaborate  on the companies  that  need space in the OKC downtown market; however, if just three of these six towers are built you will see some major changes to the skyline.   When they mentioned towers, it's understood to mean something in the range of 25 stories.   Steve refers to the 16-18 story OG&E tower as a mid rise tower.

The article went on to mention that _this does not include the prospect of a 15- to 20-story conference hotel that civic leaders hope to see built next to the future convention center at Reno and Robinson Avenues_.

*"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.*

----------


## Geographer

Whatever the height is, if they don't get the street level correct then it doesn't really matter.

----------


## Teo9969

> I think 25 is a really nice balance. Easier to *spread those out* and manage utilities, traffic, parking etc than the Devon like towers.


 :Ohno: 

SID IS ADVOCATING FOR SPRAWL!!!! WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?!

[/Sarcasm]

----------


## Teo9969

> If OKC was willing to require underground parking and invest HEAVILY in downtown transit then I think I'd be more in favor of the taller towers. Otherwise, we run the risk of being a victim of our own success and if traffic and parking gets horrible, people will start demanding another downtown highway and more silly managed parking garages.


What's the hang-up with parking garages? Obviously they're nobody's favorite development, but when done right, they don't really detract from and can actually quickly fill-in, the urban fabric…even something like the 123 Garage. If they have street-level mixed-use like Main-Street I really don't see the downfall.

Is there really a difference between a parking garage and Maywood I?

----------


## soonerguru

> I love to chew the fat on this board as much as anybody, and I agree that folks on here have influenced some projects - for instance Guyutes - through _actions_. But I'm sorry...*do you really think a few people whining about building height on a message board are going to cause a publicly-traded corporation to make height alterations to their headquarters, resulting in tens of millions if not more in additional expense? If they are adding height it is because a pro forma told them to.
> *
> To be honest, I always suspected (and hoped) the initially-announced height was intentionally kept low so that the developers could under-promise and then over-deliver.


No. But it is fair to say that the conversations here are somewhat reflective of conversations being had elsewhere among influencers in this city. People -- and corporations -- care how they are viewed publicly. That's why they spend so much on PR. 

Ask Pete about the amount of traffic on some of these threads. It is astronomical at times. Most of the people who visit this site don't contribute, but they are influenced and what they read here they pass along to others in conversation. This website if pretty ninja.

----------


## soonerguru

> What's the hang-up with parking garages? Obviously they're nobody's favorite development, but when done right, they don't really detract from and can actually quickly fill-in, the urban fabric…even something like the 123 Garage. If they have street-level mixed-use like Main-Street I really don't see the downfall.
> *
> Is there really a difference between a parking garage and Maywood I?*


Yes. Terrible street walls of nothing. Also, not good portals for retail. Rather have people than stationary cars. You?

----------


## Teo9969

> Yes. Terrible street walls of nothing. Also, not good portals for retail. Rather have people than stationary cars. You?


Maywood I: Terrible Street wall of "nothing" √
Maywood I: Not good portal for retail √
Maywood I: Rather have people than stationary cars…half-check.

Once you're over the first 10 to 20 feet of a building, I don't care what's above me. Main-Street Parking Garage is a better development than Maywood I for street-life.

People actually do drive into downtown and they do actually need places to park. I hope we never again allow something as mammoth and ugly/uninviting and space-killing as the Santa Fe garage…but that doesn't mean that parking garages should be right out…especially for a place like OKC that is starving for infill to complete the urban fabric.

I've said this before, but on any run of the mill street, as long as the corners are developed properly, anything can go in the middle, most especially parking garages. That's the big problem with Santa Fe…it screws up *2* corners and provides nothing in between.

And I'm not saying I want garages galore, or that they shouldn't have to make sense…but they are not death-knells for a street.

----------


## king183

I think 25 stories is great and don't view that as bad news. Tall towers are awesome, but we don't need to be NYC just yet. I'd rather have a bunch of 25 story towers popping up and creating infill than a couple 40-50 story towers that leave a lot of undeveloped space for a while.

----------


## warreng88

I would like to see an interior parking garages, meaning a parking garage in the middle of a block with buildings surrounding it. Kind of like the Devon parking garage if there was something on the west side. I would think something like this would be doable, especially if you are developing an entire block. Have an entrance on a street with the second least amount of traffic and the exit on the street with the least amount of traffic. 

For example, if Rainey were to build a parking garage on the interior area of the SC block, have an entrance off of Hudson and the exit off of Walker. Since most people in the building are probably going to be working 9-5 anyways, you will avoid most of the school traffic.

Then, build the building to the street facing the Myriad Gardens and have the other tower built to the street facing Sheridan. If it is going up an significant amount of height, you can add housing above the garage as well. Not an architect, just love urban development.

----------


## hoya

A 25 story tower is nice, but I'd rather have a 40 story. Something in the 650 to 700 foot range would help balance the skyline.

I think as long as our local economy continues to be as strong as it has, most of these get built. This round of construction really will be a "game changer" for OKC.  We are talking about potentially having 5 new towers on Hudson. It will forever change the city.  Together these projects will have a greater impact than Devon tower.

As long as I'm dreaming about the future (  :Smile:  ), the real test will be how OKC's office market looks after these towers are built.  If we have 25% vacancy of class A space after this construction, then I think the tower boom would be over. If we are still at like 2% vacancy, I think this would be just the start.

----------


## gopokes88

> If OKC was willing to require underground parking and invest HEAVILY in downtown transit then I think I'd be more in favor of the taller towers. Otherwise, we run the risk of being a victim of our own success and if traffic and parking gets horrible, people will start demanding another downtown highway and more silly managed parking garages.


You probably know more about this then I do, but from people I've talked to who design these sort of things tell me underground parking is a no go because the water table isn't deep enough. The sheer cost of it makes it advantageous to build above ground garages.

----------


## Pete

As far as I know, there are no garages downtown that go farther underground than two levels; and I can think of a bunch that go that far but no lower.

Might just be economics -- not sure as to the reasons.

----------


## shawnw

The Murrah garage, which is still in use, goes down 5 stories according to the guards there.

----------


## Urbanized

I know it doesn't seem like it, but the Murrah garage is on a hilltop compared to most of the CBD. I was getting ready to say that stuff in, for instance, Rick Dowell's part of downtown can go deeper without hitting the water table compared to the area around MBG, where water is 15-20 feet below the surface.

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## CuatrodeMayo

It is economics. Underground parking is considerably more expensive than a parking garage. In addition to the obvious stuff, like preventing water intrusion and structural considerations, underground garages require fire protection and a significant mechanical systems for exhausting vehicle fumes.

I understand what Sid is talking about. Here in downtown Seattle, the majority of parking occurs under buildings. Oftentimes is 5-8 levels below grade. It's really nice to have it all completely out of sight and to have the appearance of a people-oriented downtown. But the decision to bury parking is a pragmatic one. Given the geographical barriers of downtown Seattle, land use has to be much more carefully considered to maximize profitability. Dedicating a parcel of land just for the purpose of parking cars often does not make financial sense here.

Building underground structures in areas with high water tables is nothing new and certainly possible. However, it comes with a price tag. In OKC, with all the available, developable land, it doesn't make financial sense to (literally) sink money into an underground parking structure, when one can be built next door for a fraction of the cost.

I would prefer underground parking in DTOKC, but I'm not sure how to encourage it. A sweeping city requirement might have a chilling effect on high-rise construction by making profitable projects unprofitable due to increase costs.  I don't know the answer.

Right now the next best thing is providing street level retail or wrapping the garage with buildings.

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## gopokes88

> It is economics. Underground parking is considerably more expensive than a parking garage. In addition to the obvious stuff, like preventing water intrusion and structural considerations, underground garages require fire protection and a significant mechanical systems for exhausting vehicle fumes.
> 
> I understand what Sid is talking about. Here in downtown Seattle, the majority of parking occurs under buildings. Oftentimes is 5-8 levels below grade. It's really nice to have it all completely out of sight and to have the appearance of a people-oriented downtown. But the decision to bury parking is a pragmatic one. Given the geographical barriers of downtown Seattle, land use has to be much more carefully considered to maximize profitability. Dedicating a parcel of land just for the purpose of parking cars often does not make financial sense here.
> 
> Building underground structures in areas with high water tables is nothing new and certainly possible. However, it comes with a price tag. In OKC, with all the available, developable land, it doesn't make financial sense to (literally) sink money into an underground parking structure, when one can be built next door for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> I would prefer underground parking in DTOKC, but I'm not sure how to encourage it. A sweeping city requirement might have a chilling effect on high-rise construction by making profitable projects unprofitable due to increase costs.  I don't know the answer.
> 
> Right now the next best thing is providing street level retail or wrapping the garage with buildings.


Just camouflage them.

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## shawnw

> I know it doesn't seem like it, but the Murrah garage is on a hilltop compared to most of the CBD. I was getting ready to say that stuff in, for instance, Rick Dowell's part of downtown can go deeper without hitting the water table compared to the area around MBG, where water is 15-20 feet below the surface.


I ride my bike up that dang hill of Harvey, it certainly does seem like it.  :-)

(although that hill is fun to cruise down at night with no one around)

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## CuatrodeMayo

> (although that hill is fun to cruise down at night with no one around)


The spiral ramps at the Santa Fe Garage can be pretty fun too  :Big Grin:

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## shawnw

> The spiral ramps at the Santa Fe Garage can be pretty fun too


I'll have to try that

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## BG918

Cautrode nailed it as to why you don't see underground garages in Oklahoma.  Land values are just not at such a premium where in pencils out to do it in all but the rarest cases.  Devon, for example, has an underground garage for executives.  I've priced several underground garages and the additional excavation, shoring/foundation walls, waterproofing, permanent dewatering (if below the water table) and mechanical exhaust systems add lots of costs.  Whereas a surface parking stall is in the $3-5,000 range an above grade garage can be $15-20,000 and below grade upwards of $30,000.  That's a big difference.

----------


## Laramie

> As far as I know, there are no garages downtown that go farther underground than two levels; and I can think of a bunch that go that far but no lower.
> 
> Might just be economics -- not sure as to the reasons.


If I recall when they built the Myriad Convention Center in the 70s they originally planned to have a double underground parking garage.  
Downtown Oklahoma City was established on a riverbed; therefore they weren't able to dig past one level because of the water tables.

We're going to have to live with the massive parking garages until downtown expands outward or crosses beyond the Oklahoma river.

If you live in the Metropolitan Oklahoma City area, you more than likely will need a vehicle to move about.  Our public transportation is adequate but needs work.

*"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.*

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## Jim Kyle

> Yes. Terrible street walls of nothing. Also, not good portals for retail. Rather have people than stationary cars. You?


Do you remember the glory days of downtown OKC that ended due to urban renewal? In those days, we had a number of large parking garages, and none of them created "street walls of nothing." There was the Terminal Building garage on what is now Sheriday between Harvey and Hudson; it was in the middle of, and took up almost half of, the block. But rather than forming a street wall, it channeled traffic in both directions and actually increased pedestrian involvement. There was even a group of businesses that faced the alleyway between this operation and Harvey to the east, which became a pedestrian paradise.

Up on Main Street, between Broadway and Robinson on the north side of the street, we had First National's competitor to it, which took up very little space that could have been used for retail. It included a basement that formed the drive-through for the bank itself, and most of its ground level remained useful as retail.

The still-here Auto Hotel didn't keep folk from walking past it to reach the only kosher deli in the city, then. Neither did the KerMac private garage up on NW 2 prevent people from strolling by.

Most of these actually *increased* walkability by providing off-street parking, which meant we had to walk the final block or three to our actual downtown destinations. Not many drivers who went downtown expected to find an empty spot on a curb, or to complete their business within the half-hour allowed by most of the meters. We checked into one of the public garages instead, where there was no time limit. And not a few bigger retailers had deals where they would stamp our ticket and give us an hour's parking for free...

Not all public garages are as bad as Santa Fe or the new one on Main Street!

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## Snowman

> You probably know more about this then I do, but from people I've talked to who design these sort of things tell me underground parking is a no go because the water table isn't deep enough. The sheer cost of it makes it advantageous to build above ground garages.


It is almost twenty feet before the water table becomes an issue downtown, though in many places like NY where space is a premium they can just us a blend of concrete designed to form effectively a large reverse bathtub

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## UnFrSaKn

Live chat:




> 12:09
> Steve Lackmeyer: We should know about most or all of them within the next five years, some much sooner.

----------


## BDP

> We should know about most or all of them within the next five years, some much sooner.


That's an economic eon.

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## Plutonic Panda

> Live chat:


and by the time those are announced, we will likely have even more proposed or possibly announced, so this is exciting!

----------


## bchris02

> A 25 story tower is nice, but I'd rather have a 40 story. Something in the 650 to 700 foot range would help balance the skyline.
> 
> I think as long as our local economy continues to be as strong as it has, most of these get built. This round of construction really will be a "game changer" for OKC.  We are talking about potentially having 5 new towers on Hudson. It will forever change the city.  Together these projects will have a greater impact than Devon tower.
> 
> As long as I'm dreaming about the future (  ), the real test will be how OKC's office market looks after these towers are built.  If we have 25% vacancy of class A space after this construction, then I think the tower boom would be over. If we are still at like 2% vacancy, I think this would be just the start.


I agree.  I would really like to see OKC get a new second tallest.  However, that is exciting to this of having all of those towers going up on Hudson at virtually the same time.  Even though they are much shorter than the Devon tower, they will still help balance the skyline from the southwest angle, which is the angle it currently looks worst from.

----------


## lasomeday

Steve mentioned the Main and Hudson site as the Tower he is most excited about in his weekly chat.  I am thinking he knows more than he is letting on and this could be a really great project for us.  If the drawings that Pete showed us where they were looking to save the existing buildings and build up through them is some indication. We could have a project that saves the original buidlings facades and have a unique skyscraper above. That is what I am hoping and predicting with my crystal ball.

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## G.Walker

Most new towers built in this era are between 20 - 30 stories.

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## Bullbear

I think Height is great and a balance of the skyline will make a world of difference. however I have to say that I am more excited to see what possible design ideas may appear rather than just height. I will be just as happy with a 20-30 story structure if it is an interesting addition to the skyline rather than just a tall building that isn't that interesting.

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## Thundercitizen

Yeah, I'm okay with a tall, interesting building, if that's what they want to build.

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## lasomeday

> Yeah, I'm okay with a tall, interesting building, if that's what they want to build.


Yeah, we know its not going to be a mammoth Devon Tower, so I am hoping for something crazy and unique. Vancouver has an awesome residentail tower going up soon that is unique.

Vancouver House

Designed by Bjarke Ingels

Here is his website.

BIG | Bjarke Ingels Group

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## AP

I love Vancouver, and that tower looks awesome. But why are they building a new res tower when the can't even fill the ones they already have because of prices?

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## Plutonic Panda

> Yeah, we know its not going to be a mammoth Devon Tower, so I am hoping for something crazy and unique. Vancouver has an awesome residentail tower going up soon that is unique.
> 
> Vancouver House
> 
> Designed by Bjarke Ingels
> 
> Here is his website.
> 
> BIG | Bjarke Ingels Group


That is awesome! Not only the building, but the features. The beach district with paintings or screens under the bridge, being able to reserve BMW's including the i8, and some of the buildings features is incredible!

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## lasomeday

> I love Vancouver, and that tower looks awesome. But why are they building a new res tower when the can't even fill the ones they already have because of prices?


I did not do the economic analysis on building their towers.  I just like the design and it will be the highest priced Res tower in Vancouver with the great views and amenities.

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## soondoc

Something like that needs to be done on this site- love it!   It would be about 500 plus feet and add so much to the skyline.  It's unique, a conversation piece for people to want to see.  I also think it would once again set the bar, as did Devon, for other future projects as well as buildings like the Cotter, which could be quite cool with some work.

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## adaniel

> I love Vancouver, and that tower looks awesome. But why are they building a new res tower when the can't even fill the ones they already have because of prices?


A large % of condos in Van are sold to Chinese nationals looking to park their cash away from the leery eye of the Communists, not to mention its a nice little escape hatch should the **** hit the fan over there. So as long as China doesn't crater I'm sure these will sell. 

Same with Miami with South Americans or NYC with Russians. While its cool to have gleaming condo towers everywhere, I'm sure this flood of international money is wreaking havoc on any sort of affordability in these places.

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## lasomeday

Maybe our convention center hotel could look like this hotel in Barcelona.  A little color in our skyline would be amazing!

Hotel Porta Fira

Hotel Santos Porta Fira / Toyo Ito & Associates + b720 Arquitectos | Designalmic

This skyscraper had me bending over backwards to take a pic when I was driving in Barcelona.  It is amazing!

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## Plutonic Panda

It looks like a boot ;P

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## CuatrodeMayo

> BIG | Bjarke Ingels Group


Love. One of my current favorite starchitects.

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## CuatrodeMayo

This is a fun book: Yes Is More: An Archicomic on Architectural Evolution: Bjarke Ingels: 9783836520102: Amazon.com: Books

Here ya go, Sid: Yes Is More | The Seattle Public Library | BiblioCommons

----------


## OKCisOK4me

Even if any new tower was like a Frost Tower, I'd still be happy.

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## BDP

> Maybe our convention center hotel could look like this hotel in Barcelona.  A little color in our skyline would be amazing!
> 
> Hotel Porta Fira
> 
> Hotel Santos Porta Fira / Toyo Ito & Associates + b720 Arquitectos | Designalmic
> 
> This skyscraper had me bending over backwards to take a pic when I was driving in Barcelona.  It is amazing!


Cool, but pretty risky in this market. I think we want more common design.

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## Teo9969

Run some streaks of white throughout that Barcelona tower and you could call it Tenderloin Tower!!!

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## metro

> Even if any new tower was like a Frost Tower, I'd still be happy.


Absolutely, I'd love to see something like Frost Bank Tower in Austin here. Would really tie our skyline together nicely. We need something with a spire type feature.

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## zookeeper

> Absolutely, I'd love to see something like Frost Bank Tower in Austin here. Would really tie our skyline together nicely. We need something with a spire type feature.


I agree, Metro, great tower! I'm posting a picture - has anybody ever thought it looks a little like a glass First National Bank building?

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## mmonroe

As long as the above ground parking garage is camouflaged to look like any other building and the bottom outside floor has retail.. i'm cool.

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## bombermwc

I've always liked Frost myself. The last time i said something about wishing we had something like that here instead of just a bunch of boxes, i got flogged on the forum.

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## Bullbear

I love that building. has anyone else ever heard the story of it being designed to look like an owl? one of the main architects being a Rice alumni designed the building to look like an own when veiwed from the corner angles. thus putting a RICE owl rignt smack in the middle of Longhorn country. .I think its a great story. .. Sorry off topic a bit

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## G.Walker

Hmmmm, this is interesting, from Steve's chat today:

11:45 a.m. Is Devon going to build and/or occupy the new tower on the Preftakes block? If not Devon, is it BOK? Both are rumored

Steve Lackmeyer 11:45 a.m. Devon has stated they will not be building a new tower.

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## Teo9969

> I love that building. has anyone else ever heard the story of it being designed to look like an owl? one of the main architects being a Rice alumni designed the building to look like an own when veiwed from the corner angles. thus putting a RICE owl rignt smack in the middle of Longhorn country. .I think its a great story. .. Sorry off topic a bit


Once you hear the story you can totally see it! That's just beautiful artistry.

----------


## hoya

> Hmmmm, this is interesting, from Steve's chat today:
> 
> 11:45 a.m. Is Devon going to build and/or occupy the new tower on the Preftakes block? If not Devon, is it BOK? Both are rumored
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer 11:45 a.m. Devon has stated they will not be building a new tower.


Devon themselves won't be building it.  Someone will build it and Devon will lease most of the space.  That's the current rumor.  :Smile:

----------


## shawnw

> Once you hear the story you can totally see it! That's just beautiful artistry.


I saw it right away never having heard the story.  It seemed obvious (reminded me of the mechanical owl on the original Clash of the Titans). I doubt I have some kind of special perception or anything...

----------


## Thundercitizen

Oh...okay.  Frost Tower, not Frozen Tower.  Just got back from WDW and I thought, well...

----------


## Laramie

Are they going to revive the 

*Energy Tower*




*"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.*

----------


## ChrisHayes

I sure hope not! LOL

----------


## bombermwc

Is anyone else tired of seeing this junk show up on the NewsOK site via Steve? He's as speculative as the comments on this thread. "We're gonna see something in a few years". How less concrete can you be than that? I mean come one, that's about as solid of a lead as me saying I'm going to buy a car at some point in the next few years. It may happen, but it could be anything from a mini to a semi truck....big difference. UGH!

Steve Lackmeyer: OKC will likely see mid- to high-rise residential project within next few years | News OK

----------


## SOONER8693

> Is anyone else tired of seeing this junk show up on the NewsOK site via Steve? He's as speculative as the comments on this thread. "We're gonna see something in a few years". How less concrete can you be than that? I mean come one, that's about as solid of a lead as me saying I'm going to buy a car at some point in the next few years. It may happen, but it could be anything from a mini to a semi truck....big difference. UGH!
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer: OKC will likely see mid- to high-rise residential project within next few years | News OK


I'll take it a step further, I believe we will likely see a new building built in downtown OKC in the future. 
I shall now be know as Nostradumbass.

----------


## bchris02

> Is anyone else tired of seeing this junk show up on the NewsOK site via Steve? He's as speculative as the comments on this thread. "We're gonna see something in a few years". How less concrete can you be than that? I mean come one, that's about as solid of a lead as me saying I'm going to buy a car at some point in the next few years. It may happen, but it could be anything from a mini to a semi truck....big difference. UGH!
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer: OKC will likely see mid- to high-rise residential project within next few years | News OK


Steve's chats are fun speculation and enjoyable to read, but a lot of it is just educated speculation much like what happens on OKCTalk.  Two things we do know.  Something big is coming with the Clayco/OG&E development that we will likely know by the end of the year.  In addition, a tower at Main/Hudson appears to be very imminent.   Anything beyond that is pretty wild speculation at this point.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Is anyone else tired of seeing this junk show up on the NewsOK site via Steve? He's as speculative as the comments on this thread. "We're gonna see something in a few years". How less concrete can you be than that? I mean come one, that's about as solid of a lead as me saying I'm going to buy a car at some point in the next few years. It may happen, but it could be anything from a mini to a semi truck....big difference. UGH!
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer: OKC will likely see mid- to high-rise residential project within next few years | News OK


I enjoy them.

It has been said time and time again and I don't know what it so hard to understand about this, skyscrapers take time to build and even more time to actually get to the point where they break ground.

I appreciate what Steve has reported on and when it gets built, you can't say you weren't warned.

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## dankrutka

> Is anyone else tired of seeing this junk show up on the NewsOK site via Steve? He's as speculative as the comments on this thread. "We're gonna see something in a few years". How less concrete can you be than that? I mean come one, that's about as solid of a lead as me saying I'm going to buy a car at some point in the next few years. It may happen, but it could be anything from a mini to a semi truck....big difference. UGH!
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer: OKC will likely see mid- to high-rise residential project within next few years | News OK


Steve's just answering questions asked of him to the best of his knowledge. Of course it's speculation because there really is nothing to report, but I'm sure he's talked with some folks in the know who anticipate it happening. 

What do you want him to do? I'm sure the digital editor chose to highlight that answer in the story headline. 

This kind of reminds me of people complaining about Bob Stoops answering questions about the SEC. It's not like Stoops is always bringing it up. He's just answering questions.

----------


## Rover

I guess people just want him to make crap up so they can criticize when it doesnt  come true.

----------


## Pete

Steve does not write those headlines -- someone at NewsOK does that.


And in terms of his answers to the questions asked, that's all he can say at this time.  No reason to turn frustration against him (or me!).   :Smile: 

We will should have some great building porn come October 6th, so just hang in there.

----------


## turnpup

Word of the day:  Building porn.

----------


## OKCRT

Need more porn

----------


## ljbab728

> Is anyone else tired of seeing this junk show up on the NewsOK site via Steve? He's as speculative as the comments on this thread. "We're gonna see something in a few years". How less concrete can you be than that? I mean come one, that's about as solid of a lead as me saying I'm going to buy a car at some point in the next few years. It may happen, but it could be anything from a mini to a semi truck....big difference. UGH!
> 
> Steve Lackmeyer: OKC will likely see mid- to high-rise residential project within next few years | News OK


Keep in mind that statement was made in response to a question in his weekly chat.  It was not in a published article he wrote.  There is a big difference.

----------


## Steve

> Steve does not write those headlines -- someone at NewsOK does that.
> 
> 
> And in terms of his answers to the questions asked, that's all he can say at this time.  No reason to turn frustration against him (or me!).  
> 
> We will should have some great building porn come October 6th, so just hang in there.


Thanks Pete. And yeah, I'm not the guy picking out what portions of the chat to highlight or the headlines.

----------


## jccouger

Yeah, there is really not point in attacking Steve for that. It may or may not come true, but Steve is usually pretty quiet on things unless he thinks there is a good chance they could happen. I'm thankful for it, even though the headline blows it out of proportion. Steve, I think you should make a case with the powers that be that you get to choose the headline of your articles. I don't want you to be associated with any "Mr. Unrealiable" tags. No offense to you, but your employer is a pretty big joke that will push volume of readers over quality of content 100% of the time.

----------


## Laramie

> Yeah, there is really not point in attacking Steve for that. It may or may not come true, but Steve is usually pretty quiet on things unless he thinks there is a good chance they could happen. I'm thankful for it, even though the headline blows it out of proportion. Steve, I think you should make a case with the powers that be that you get to choose the headline of your articles. I don't want you to be associated with any "Mr. Unrealiable" tags. No offense to you, but your employer is a pretty big joke that will push volume of readers over quality of content 100% of the time.


So true,

We thought the Daily Oklahoman was bad when it was owned by the Gaylords.   Now that the paper is owned by _The Anschutz Corporation of Denver, Colorado_ has there really been that much of a change? 

The cosmetic appearance of the paper itself does seem much better organized;  we'll leave it at that...

*"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.*

----------


## Jim Kyle

> Steve, I think you should make a case with the powers that be that you get to choose the headline of your articles. I don't want you to be associated with any "Mr. Unrealiable" tags. No offense to you, but your employer is a pretty big joke that will push volume of readers over quality of content 100% of the time.


Having once been one of those "other fellows" who put the headlines onto articles, I can tell you that there's no way in the world that any print publication would allow the writers to choose the headlines above the articles. The workload is divided up into areas of responsibility, and the job of the copy editors is to (1) make sure that the article is both grammatically correct and complies with the definee "style" of the publication, and (2) has a headline that both fits the space assigned for it by the editor higher up the chain and is catchy enough to hook readers into doing more than just scanning the article.

That word "style" refers to such things as capitalization, use of abbreviations, and so on. Most publications have their own defined stylebooks.

----------


## Urbanized

Jim is right; traditionally headlines are NEVER written by the story's author. This is because the reporter usually has no idea exactly where the article will appear on the page (or even which page), how many columns it will span, how much it will be featured, etc.. All of those decisions are made well after the reporter has turned in the story, and even after they have gone home for the night. After all of the stories for the day are turned in, edited, assigned importance, etc., THEN they are given a place on the page, and only THEN are the headlines assigned, usually to someone working late, up against a deadline.

Headline writing is becoming a lost art, and not just at that publication. Cuts/downsizing in the industry have transferred that responsibility many times to inexperienced personnel and even interns. Rather than dependable good headlines from an experienced writer, it instead is left up to an overworked page editor to catch bad ones generated by someone who might not even have a lot of common sense. If the "bad" headline is due mostly to nuance (the kinds of articles we all care about here are often heavily nuanced), it's easy to miss when scanning a page before putting it to bed.

If it is the electronic version, forget about it. In that case you can all but guarantee the headline is coming from an inexperienced youngster, in a hurry. Anytime you see someone blaming a writer for a bad headline you can bet on the fact that person complaining has no idea whatsoever how a newspaper works.

----------


## Pete

^

Not only that, but headlines have to be written all day, every day.

Used to be once, and then the paper was "put to bed".  Now, they are loading articles all day long.


I'm doing some headline writing now for our News page, and like most things, it's not as easy as it seems when someone else is doing it.   :Smile:

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

I was told there was porn here.

----------


## warreng88

> I was told there was porn here.


Um, I'm pretty sure that's at The Edge in Midtown...

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

*fires up car*

----------


## sroberts24

Any new news on Main and Hudson?  Think maybe once OG&E tower is presented next week we might see some more activity on this site?

----------


## Pete

> Any new news on Main and Hudson?  Think maybe once OG&E tower is presented next week we might see some more activity on this site?


Haven't heard anything new but by all indications it's still going to happen.

----------


## HOT ROD

no updates on this? nothing has been leaked?

I'm so surprised. with what? 3 proposals to be announced yet nothing leaked (purpose or not) prior to the Oct 6 deadline. ....

----------


## Bellaboo

> no updates on this? nothing has been leaked?
> 
> I'm so surprised. with what? 3 proposals to be announced yet nothing leaked (purpose or not) prior to the Oct 6 deadline. ....


I don't think the Main and Hudson proposal is supposed to be announced Oct 6, only those on the Sheridan and Hudson block.

But this is nice having multiple prospects in the same area.....

----------


## Pete

Lots of has been leaked about the OG&E and Clayco projects and we'll know all the details on Monday.

Lots has been leaked about Main & Hudson too.

----------


## catch22

Remember, everybody, that Devon had very little "leakage" on their project too. What information was available was very vague, and grossly underestimated than what was actually revealed.

It's no problem getting people to keep secrets on projects -- if it weren't for satellite imagery, Area 51 would still be a secret, despite thousands of individuals working there.

----------


## dankrutka

Not sure where this goes, but Steve tweeted this out a bit ago:

@stevelackmeyer: Everything I've hinted at this past year is starting to roll out ... get ready kids, a massive downtown transformation is set to start.

I guess his story for tomorrow should shed some light.

----------


## Rover

Good news.  Going to Dallas for the weekend....I'll see if they are jealous.

----------


## Dustin

> Not sure where this goes, but Steve tweeted this out a bit ago:
> 
> @stevelackmeyer: Everything I've hinted at this past year is starting to roll out ... get ready kids, a massive downtown transformation is set to start.
> 
> I guess his story for tomorrow should shed some light.


He says new projects will be announced "daily".  GRRRRR....  What a tease!

----------


## Rover

Will his news tomorrow be in addition to the Canopy Hotel just announced in Bricktown?

----------


## Paseofreak

> Will his news tomorrow be in addition to the Canopy Hotel just announced in Bricktown?


 Steve just confirmed on Twitter that indeed it will be.

----------


## bchris02

So it looks like what was teased about in December may finally actually play out.  This is exciting.

----------


## sooner88

"The new or converted hotels will appear in Miami, San Diego, Nashville, London, Oklahoma City, Indianapolis, Savannah, Ga., Portland, Ore., Ithaca, N.Y., Charlotte and Washington, D.C."

With OKC amongst those locations and with Texas completely being left out, I would think this would definitely qualify. It's big news that we're on the first leg and and just as big that OKC will be included on this list to a global audience.

----------


## Dustin

> "The new or converted hotels will appear in Miami, San Diego, Nashville, London, Oklahoma City, Indianapolis, Savannah, Ga., Portland, Ore., Ithaca, N.Y., Charlotte and Washington, D.C."


I can't get over how cool that list is...  Amazing for OKC.

----------


## adaniel

> Good news.  Going to Dallas for the weekend....I'll see if they are jealous.


Well OKC doesn't have ebola. That alone makes me jealous  :Wink:

----------


## fromdust

I wonder what kind of affect a continuing downward trend from oil and wall street, which will influence the economy, will have on these projects? Tremendously scaled back or just kept in the dream stage.

----------


## coov23

> I wonder what kind of affect a continuing downward trend from oil and wall street, which will influence the economy, will have on these projects? Tremendously scaled back or just kept in the dream stage.


According to a lot experts this downward trend hurts on a global scale. All the while, the U.S. making a massive move to become independent from oil imports( other than from Canada). So, Okc will continue to thrive as the U.S. moves towards indepency from foreign oil.

Oil And Gas Prices: How Low Will They Go? - Forbes

----------


## Laramie

* One of 11:*
let's spike the football...
_The Canopy brand is targeted for urban neighborhoods, and Oklahoma City is one of 11 to get the nod for the brand joining London, England; Bathesda North in Washington, D.C.; Portland's Pearl District; Uptown in Charlotte, N.C.; City Centre in Indianapolis; Gaslamp Quarter in San Diego; Brickell in Miami; Savannah, Ga., and The Commons in Ithica, N.Y._

New nine-story boutique hotel planned for Bricktown: http://oklahoman.com/new-nine-story-...rticle/5356893

Our downtown hotel expansion has picked up momentum with reputable brands of late.  This is great news when you consider that there was a period of time when  the Sheraton Century was the only hotel downtown area.

Could this be a precursor of things to come for the CC hotel?

----------


## HangryHippo

> Will his news tomorrow be in addition to the Canopy Hotel just announced in Bricktown?





> Steve just confirmed on Twitter that indeed it will be.


I must have missed where Steve said there would be another announcement today of something beyond the Canopy Hotel.  Does someone have a link to where he said there'd be something else new today?

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I wonder what kind of affect a continuing downward trend from oil and wall street, which will influence the economy, will have on these projects? Tremendously scaled back or just kept in the dream stage.


Way too early to be concerned about projects being scaled back or not completed at all. The last time prices dropped it was part of a major national/global recession that was very detrimental to the real estate/construction industry which probably had more to do with our projects getting scaled back or postponed. OKC did much better than the rest of the country economically partially because of the energy industry which had just weathered a major price decline in both natural gas and oil. If you remember, two major construction projects were proposed and commenced by energy company during the recession, the Devon Energy Center and Sandridge Commons. Most of the projects that took a hit here were housing oriented, so as another national recession doesn't follow the downward trending energy prices, I think we'll be fine. Demand won't keep oil prices depressed that long and natural gas prices usually improve over winter (especially if we get a colder than average one).

----------


## Pete

> I must have missed where Steve said there would be another announcement today of something beyond the Canopy Hotel.  Does someone have a link to where he said there'd be something else new today?


I think people were confused.

Typically, news stories for the following day's paper come out the night before.

----------


## Paseofreak

> I must have missed where Steve said there would be another announcement today of something beyond the Canopy Hotel.  Does someone have a link to where he said there'd be something else new today?


Oops! I mis-read Rovers post.  I missed the "in addition" part.  Steve merely confirmed that the breaking story he tweeted about was the Canopy story.

----------


## bchris02

From today's chat in reference to the Lumber Yard.




> Steve Lackmeyer: I do not see us getting a football stadium! But after having a lot of doubt about the development effort for the lumber yard, doubts I explained on my blog earlier this year, I am now convinced that a development is going to happen. I still don't believe it will be what was shown in renderings posted online.

----------


## Dustin

> From today's chat in reference to the Lumber Yard.


Ohh hallelujah!

----------


## UnFrSaKn

Not sure if I should bump this thread up or not for this but... happened to run across this project in Mumbai and have thought that a tower shaped like this would look awesome in our skyline. Don't really see a lot like these in the States.

Namaste Tower

----------


## s00nr1

Something tells me with the recent collapse in oil prices any announcement of a future "tower" will be put on hold until the market calms.

----------


## bchris02

> Something tells me with the recent collapse in oil prices any announcement of a future "tower" will be put on hold until the market calms.


I think that depends on who is building the tower. If it's somebody like Devon or Contenental then yes I can see it being put on hold. If it's BOK, then I don't see why it would matter as much.

----------


## Teo9969

Banks in this state are pretty well tied to oil as well. They're more diversified than oil to be sure, but a big hit to oil for prolonged periods is a big hit to local banks.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I think that depends on who is building the tower. If it's somebody like Devon or Contenental then yes I can see it being put on hold. If it's BOK, then I don't see why it would matter as much.


Keep in mind that Devon built the Devon Tower during the worst part of the recession. If oil companies believe that prices will eventually increase (they all do), I highly doubt the price decrease will affect their long term plans.

----------


## BDP

> Keep in mind that Devon built the Devon Tower during the worst part of the recession. If oil companies believe that prices will eventually increase (they all do), I highly doubt the price decrease will affect their long term plans.


True, but the Devon tower was kind of an anomaly. There were a lot of projects that were stalled or never happened because of the recession. I don't recall any of the ones that we knew of being corporate towers, but the reality is that it at least delayed everything we're seeing now. At this point, I doubt their long term plans would disappear, but it could easily change the timetable and/or scale.

----------


## Stickman

I'm pretty sure it will go up as scheduled.

----------


## Bellaboo

> I'm pretty sure it will go up as scheduled.


I'd like to know which tower we're talking about going up ? We know of the possibility of 3 at the SC site  (if the hotel happens) and 2 just south of SC.
Then we have the Preftakes block with the possibility of a 43 floor building and maybe another one that is smaller. 
Is there something else ?

----------


## Stickman

> I'd like to know which tower we're talking about going up ? We know of the possibility of 3 at the SC site  (if the hotel happens) and 2 just south of SC.
> Then we have the Preftakes block with the possibility of a 43 floor building and maybe another one that is smaller. 
> Is there something else ?


Preftakes.  I'm of course under the assumption no one would pay taxes and let property set for so long without cash flow.  This is REAL $ behind this.

----------


## PhiAlpha

> True, but the Devon tower was kind of an anomaly. There were a lot of projects that were stalled or never happened because of the recession. I don't recall any of the ones that we knew of being corporate towers, but the reality is that it at least delayed everything we're seeing now. At this point, I doubt their long term plans would disappear, but it could easily change the timetable and/or scale.


If rumors are correct and Devon and BOK are behind the preftakes block development, then I don't see how the situation would be much different. If they plan to build it, they are going to do it regardless of the circumstances.

----------


## Just the facts

> I'm pretty sure it will go up as scheduled.


Is that the same as saying a wizard is never late?

----------


## AP

“A tower is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to.”

----------


## Oh GAWD the Smell!

*YOUUUUUU SHALLLLL NOT PAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSS* a tif for this!!!

----------


## BDP

> If rumors are correct and Devon and BOK are behind the preftakes block development, then I don't see how the situation would be much different. If they plan to build it, they are going to do it regardless of the circumstances.


That sounds pretty reckless and I never got the impression that they do business that way. I'm not predicting anything. I'm just saying that these things are not vanity projects and the economics do matter.

----------


## bchris02

> That sounds pretty reckless and I never got the impression that they do business that way. I'm not predicting anything. I'm just saying that these things are not vanity projects and the economics do matter.


I think what PhiAlpha was trying to say is that a temporary drop in oil prices isn't likely to kill a deal, especially if its been in the works behind the scenes for a while now.  If oil prices keep dropping and they stay there for a prolonged period then yes there could be some changes.

----------


## ChrisHayes

Now that we know the details about the Preftakes block and Clayco, are any other mystery towers in the offing?

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Now that we know the details about the Preftakes block and Clayco, are any other mystery towers in the offing?


At some point Contential has to get more space

----------


## bchris02

> At some point Contential has to get more space


Of the major companies in OKC, Continental may be the current most vulnerable to the oil price plunge. I would guess they are waiting to see how that plays out before considering building.

I think at this point there is the convention center hotel.  On top of that I am not sure what else is in the books. If OKC does get all six towers within the next five years it will be very impressive for a city this size.

----------


## Pete

> At some point Contential has to get more space


Yes, very true.

They are maxed out, growing like crazy, have tons of money and now Hamm's divorce is pretty much wrapped up.

----------


## warreng88

I am curious if Continental will move in to the other commercial building west of the MBG

----------


## Pete

^

That won't be much bigger than where they are now.

Also, Hamm has always owned versus paying rent to someone else.

----------


## NWOKCGuy

I don't see how Continental could possible build a tower downtown.  I can't think of any historic fabric left to tear down. Maybe the FNC deal will fall through and they can tear that down when they're ready for a new HQ.

----------


## Laramie

> I am curious if Continental will move in to the other commercial building west of the MBG





> Yes, very true.
> 
> They are maxed out, growing like crazy, have tons of money and now Hamm's divorce is pretty much wrapped up.


Does anyone know if the present 19 story Continental Oil Center is structural sound enough to support an expansion of additional floors--say 11-21 stories to make it a 30 to 40 story skyscraper (double its size) to allow for future corporate growth?

----------


## soondoc

> Does anyone know if the present 19 story Continental Oil Center is structural sound enough to support an expansion of additional floors--say 11-21 stories to make it a 30 to 40 story skyscraper (double its size) to allow for future corporate growth?


That would be very, very nice!  Can something like this be done or is it a possibility?

----------


## ljbab728

> That would be very, very nice!  Can something like this be done or is it a possibility?


I would guess that there is zero percent possibility of that happening.

----------


## Spartan

> Does anyone know if the present 19 story Continental Oil Center is structural sound enough to support an expansion of additional floors--say 11-21 stories to make it a 30 to 40 story skyscraper (double its size) to allow for future corporate growth?


Why would anyone want a 40-story Mid-America/Continental Tower? That thing is hideous

----------


## PhiAlpha

> Of the major companies in OKC, Continental may be the current most vulnerable to the oil price plunge. I would guess they are waiting to see how that plays out before considering building.
> 
> I think at this point there is the convention center hotel.  On top of that I am not sure what else is in the books. If OKC does get all six towers within the next five years it will be very impressive for a city this size.


Continental's lack of hedges in 2015 makes them vulnerable, but to say they are the most vulnerable in OKC is a major stretch. They can produce oil in the Bakken profitably down to $40 per barrel and have one of the best (if not the best) positions up there.  There activity will likely decrease to a certain extent if prices keep falling, but their large position in the sweet spots of Bakken will more than keep them going. Sandridge on the other hand is only has one position in one inconsistent play in OK and that is going to continue hurting them. Their stock price is down to $1.75 today.

----------


## Spartan

I think the companies that pull back and slow their production down right now are the ones I would personally consider investing in. Anyone who really believes in "drill baby drill!" is a moron; oil is a precious commodity that must be strategically produced like the Norwegians do.

----------


## mugofbeer

It is a precious commodity,  but we need to drill-baby-drill until we no longer pay money to the likes of Venezuela, Iran and anyone who might support ISIS.   

Back to thread

----------


## PhiAlpha

> I think the companies that pull back and slow their production down right now are the ones I would personally consider investing in. Anyone who really believes in "drill baby drill!" is a moron; oil is a precious commodity that must be strategically produced like the Norwegians do.


While I don't completely disagree, it isn't that simple. If companies are hedged at $90 (or anything higher than the current price) for half or all of 2015, it is in their best interest and their investors best interest to produce as much as they can while those hedges are in place, especially if they don't believe prices will rebound quickly. This is of course a Catch 22 as while adding more supply may or may not continue dropping the price, it certainly won't help increase it. 

Companies also may have leasehold drilling obligations that they have to meet in order to maintain their leases or obligations to JV partners that require them to drill a certain number of wells per year (Sandrdige/Repsol, CHK/Senopec, Devon/Senopec, etc). 

We differ from Norway in that we allow private ownership of minerals and the vast majority of oil and gas drilling/production is not controlled by the federal government. The way the mineral ownership, the industry and our economy are set up, it's "lease, baby, lease" and "drill, baby, drill" or get left behind. This is a big reason for why the industry is so cyclical.

----------


## Just the facts

> If OKC does get all six towers within the next five years it will be very impressive for a city this size.


Only if you consider other US cities in your comparison.

Calgary (metro-pop 1,214,839)

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Only if you consider other US cities in your comparison.
> 
> Calgary (metro-pop 1,214,839)


Yeah, well over a million people live in the city itself vs. 600,000 for OKC, so that probably makes a difference. 

Also, Kerry, not to be argumentative here, but I believe Calgary has one of the biggest skyway networks in North America.

+15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Plus 15 or +15 Skyway network in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, is the world's most extensive pedestrian skywalk system, with a total length of 18 kilometres (11 miles) and 62 bridges.[1] The system is so named because the skywalks are approximately 15 feet (approximately 4.5 metres) above street level. (Some Plus 15 skywalks are multi-level, with higher levels being referred to as +30s and +45s.)

----------


## AP

Every Canadian city I've been to look like that. Even the suburbs of Toronto have mid/hi-rise apartments.

----------


## shawnw

that's because everybody needs to huddle together for warmth.  :-P

----------


## AP

It's actually pretty crazy. People walk and use transit and ride bikes no matter the weather. Just like they clear roads when it snows they clear the sidewalks as well. People there are very equipped to deal with the weather. Not just that they are used to it, more that they prepare correctly for it and dress for the weather.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> It's actually pretty crazy. People walk and use transit and ride bikes no matter the weather. Just like they clear roads when it snows they clear the sidewalks as well. People there are very equipped to deal with the weather. Not just that they are used to it, more that they prepare correctly for it and dress for the weather.


They also have sky bridges.

----------


## AP

> They also have sky bridges.


Thank you for pointing that out to me. I was unaware that they had skywalks. Make so much sense now. No wonder there are so many people walking through the snow to bus stops. Skywalks.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Thank you for pointing that out to me. I was unaware that they had skywalks. Make so much sense now. No wonder there are so many people walking through the snow to bus stops. Skywalks.


Just making sure you knew. I honestly didn't know that today until I street viewed a bunch of Canadian cities after Kerry posted a beautiful picture of Calgary, which peaked my interest. 

As for the second part of your comment, there are obviously going to snow tracks from humans around bus stops. I'd expect the same here in OKC, if the buses are running. It's a completely different ball game though, from what I understand, school buses will still run until the snow gets pretty high compared to here if you mention the word snow school is canceled. I suspect about the same with the bus service. So before you make another smartass comment, you might want to re-read my other comment responding to Kerry or perhaps you 'accidentally' missed it.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

Here, I'll make it easier.




> The Plus 15 or +15 Skyway network in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, is the world's most extensive pedestrian skywalk system, with a total length of 18 kilometres (11 miles) and 62 bridges.[1] The system is so named because the skywalks are approximately 15 feet (approximately 4.5 metres) above street level. (Some Plus 15 skywalks are multi-level, with higher levels being referred to as +30s and +45s.)
> 
> - +15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just so this post doesn't accidentally get buried.

----------


## bchris02

Is the culture in Canada really that different?

Economically OKC shares quite a bit in common with Calgary, both on the plains and both being big O&G cities and have similar MSA sizes, yet Calgary is like Boston compared to OKC from an urban perspective.  No cities in the US in 1-1.5 million pop range, even those that are ahead of OKC, can compare to Calgary.

Toronto is an alpha world city with 5 million+ people living in its metro area.

----------


## Just the facts

If OKC had Calgary's downtown density skywalks wouldn't be as big of a problem, but OKC doesn't which means we should be maximizing the pedestrians we do have.  Montreal has the worlds largest underground network, but in a city that size losing a few thousands pedestrians to it isn't as big a deal.  At some point you reach a threshold where street retail can thrive and an increase in pedestrians doesn't help (and in some cases where there are too many pedestrians).

----------


## Just the facts

> Is the culture in Canada really that different?
> 
> Economically OKC shares quite a bit in common with Calgary, both on the plains and both being big O&G cities and have similar MSA sizes, yet Calgary is like Boston compared to OKC from an urban perspective.  No cities in the US in 1-1.5 million pop range, even those that are ahead of OKC, can compare to Calgary.
> 
> Toronto is an alpha world city with 5 million+ people living in its metro area.


Canada doesn't subsidize urban sprawl, so they don't have it.  Could you imagine what would happen in the US if the Mortgage Interest Deduction was done away with or gasoline cost 2X what it does now.  Urban sprawl would vanish in a generation (20 years).

----------


## Rover

That's a very simplistic answer.  To compare Canada  and the development of their cities to most of the US is a much more complex study.

----------


## Just the facts

> That's a very simplistic answer.  To compare Canada  and the development of their cities to most of the US is a much more complex study.


It's complex, but it all comes down to what I said.  Urban sprawl in the United States was created on purpose.  It's is not the result of 'free markets' like some people want to believe.  High density urbanism is the 'free market' solution, which is why it existed in the US prior to WWII.  Post WWII urban sprawl is a creation of government manipulating the markets.  The interstate highways, housing loan guarantees, oil below market price, auto company bailouts, single-use zoning, and the list goes on and on and on - all designed to create sprawl.

On edit - just realized what this thread is about so back to topic.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Canada doesn't subsidize urban sprawl, so they don't have it.  Could you imagine what would happen in the US if the Mortgage Interest Deduction was done away with or gasoline cost 2X what it does now.  Urban sprawl would vanish in a generation (20 years).


They have 14 lane highways.

Edit: I just checked Google Earth, they most certainly do have sprawl.

----------


## AP

> They have 14 lane highways.
> 
> Edit: I just checked Google Earth, they most certainly do have sprawl.


While they do have suburbs, it is not like the sprawl we have here.

Just look at the skylines of some of Toronto's suburbs like Mississauga, Brampton, and Hamilton.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> While they do have suburbs, it is not like the sprawl we have here.


Perhaps you're right, not on the level. But this is 30 miles outside of Montreal.



serviced by this six lane highway

----------


## Urbanized

> that's because everybody needs to huddle together for warmth.  :-P


Beat me to the punch. Great minds think alike! I was just about to quote him and post the same line. Glad I clicked to the next page...

----------


## Spartan

> Yeah, well over a million people live in the city itself vs. 600,000 for OKC, so that probably makes a difference. 
> 
> Also, Kerry, not to be argumentative here, but I believe Calgary has one of the biggest skyway networks in North America.
> 
> +15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Plus 15 or +15 Skyway network in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, is the world's most extensive pedestrian skywalk system, with a total length of 18 kilometres (11 miles) and 62 bridges.[1] The system is so named because the skywalks are approximately 15 feet (approximately 4.5 metres) above street level. (Some Plus 15 skywalks are multi-level, with higher levels being referred to as +30s and +45s.)


So, I used to live in Calgary briefly, which is why I find this discussion marginally intriguing. I'll just say PluPan, and I'll buy you a drink someday at an OKC Talk meetup bc we're all friends here, but sometimes I read your posts and just face palm. Literally just face palm. In this instance you have discovered the secret of Calgary.

P.S. The metro's are nearly the exact same population, but much less geography because of a very strongly enforced GROWTH BOUNDARY combined with a pretty good rail network.

----------


## Tigerguy

Damn, our mystery tower is being built in Calgary now? What a bummer.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> So, I used to live in Calgary briefly, which is why I find this discussion marginally intriguing. I'll just say PluPan, and I'll buy you a drink someday at an OKC Talk meetup bc we're all friends here, but sometimes I read your posts and just face palm. Literally just face palm. In this instance you have discovered the secret of Calgary.
> 
> P.S. The metro's are nearly the exact same population, but much less geography because of a very strongly enforced GROWTH BOUNDARY combined with a pretty good rail network.


Sounds good man.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I'm sorry but I never realized how big Calgary was. I was surfing it on street view and I think it's an amazing city that we should look up to. I don't know much about it other than its massive downtown area, but is incredibly dense and a city I would love to live in for a year or so to experience it. The furthest north I've been Memphis, regrettably. I plan to change that though. All of the vacationing I've done has either been in Hawaii or Central America.

I did notice it was geographically restrained, but I think that helps cities in a way.

----------


## CuatrodeMayo

> The furthest north I've been Memphis,


Wait, what?

----------


## Urbanized

Honestly - and I'm not kidding about this - PluPan is one of my favorite posters.

----------


## Laramie

> So, I used to live in Calgary briefly, which is why I find this discussion marginally intriguing. I'll just say PluPan, and I'll buy you a drink someday at an OKC Talk meetup bc we're all friends here, but sometimes I read your posts and just face palm. Literally just face palm. In this instance you have discovered the secret of Calgary.
> 
> P.S. The metro's are nearly the exact same population, but much less geography because of a very strongly enforced GROWTH BOUNDARY combined with a pretty good rail network.


Calgary's Skyline, that's impressive...
 

List of tallest buildings in Calgary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## Bullbear

> Honestly - and I'm not kidding about this - PluPan is one of my favorite posters.


He is kind of the wild card.. it keeps things interesting

----------


## boitoirich

To broaden his horizons, let's organize a Kickstarter campaign to send him on a trip way up north to Kansas City.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Wait, what?


I've been to several places in the Caribbean, I've been to Hawaii, been to Las Vegas and Kansas City(which is further North the Memphis, but I didn't go anywhere else besides KC and was only there briefly).

Actually, I did go to St. Louis one time to pick up a car my dad bought. Drove it back didn't even stay a day. :/

I've been to Las Vegas, Los Angeles(which I'm moving to in March for acting), St. Louis, Honolulu, Jamaica, Bahamas, Cancun, Tuscon, Dallas, Houston, Tulsa, Little Rock, Jacksonville, Orlando, Port Charlotte, Broken Bow, and that's about it.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Honestly - and I'm not kidding about this - PluPan is one of my favorite posters.





> He is kind of the wild card.. it keeps things interesting


I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> To broaden his horizons, let's organize a Kickstarter campaign to send him on a trip way up north to Kansas City.


Well, I've been to Kansas City and St. Louis, but I didn't stay. I literally was on the highway, got off briefly, and then got back and left.  :Frown:

----------


## Plutonic Panda

It seemed like a beautiful city. I will make it back up that way though. This summer, if I don't end up going to Tehran with my grandfather, I am going to go on a road trip somewhere.

----------


## Just the facts

> Damn, our mystery tower is being built in Calgary now? What a bummer.


Well, now that you mention it.  Here is Devon Tower in Calgary.  Notice the skywalk.

----------


## Spartan

> Sounds good man. 
> 
> I'm sorry but I never realized how big Calgary was. I was surfing it on street view and I think it's an amazing city that we should look up to. I don't know much about it other than its massive downtown area, but is incredibly dense and a city I would love to live in for a year or so to experience it. The furthest north I've been Memphis, regrettably. I plan to change that though. All of the vacationing I've done has either been in Hawaii or Central America.
> 
> I did notice it was geographically restrained, but I think that helps cities in a way.


Get a wool coat and earmuffs.

Memphis..is north of OKC?

----------


## Plutonic Panda

> Get a wool coat and earmuffs.
> 
> *Memphis..is north of OKC?*


Wow. Do I feel stupid. I guess I just never really payed attention to Memphis on a map; I always assumed it was north of OKC. Doesn't seem like I'll have a career in cartography anytime.

----------


## hoya

> Calgary's Skyline, that's impressive...
>  
> 
> List of tallest buildings in Calgary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Interestingly, Calgary has a Devon Tower too.

Canterra Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit:  Dammit, JTF ninja'd me.  I really should finish reading a thread before commenting.

----------


## ljbab728

> So, I used to live in Calgary briefly, which is why I find this discussion marginally intriguing. I'll just say PluPan, and I'll buy you a drink someday at an OKC Talk meetup bc we're all friends here, but sometimes I read your posts and just face palm. Literally just face palm. In this instance you have discovered the secret of Calgary.
> 
> P.S. The metro's are nearly the exact same population, but much less geography because of a very strongly enforced GROWTH BOUNDARY combined with a pretty good rail network.


Spartan, I've never lived in Calgary but I was there earlier this year.  I came into the city on the highway from the Rockies to stay at the Fairmont downtown.  It really does have a very impressive core but I saw a lot of suburban sprawl coming into the city.  All of which has little to do with the "Mystery Tower" in OKC.  LOL

----------


## HOT ROD

> Every Canadian city I've been to look like that. Even the *suburbs of Toronto have mid/hi-rise apartments*.


 ADD: *and office towers*

As does *EVERY* suburb of Vancouver.

----------


## Spartan

LJ - you mean Calgary has suburbs, but not sprawl. No rational urbanists want suburbs gone, mainly bc making cities conform for EVERYONE would ruin them. No one size fits all, and variety and diversity of housing types is so important I can't possibly overstate it. As you're driving into Calgary on the Deerfoot Trail or Crowchild Trail etc you pass miles of single family homes (typically very dense like 8-15 DU/acre), lots of affordable apartments, high-end condos, and so on. PUDs are very popular in high growth areas of Canada.




> Wow. Do I feel stupid. I guess I just never really payed attention to Memphis on a map; I always assumed it was north of OKC. Doesn't seem like I'll have a career in cartography anytime.


All good. What about Stillwater or Tulsa? Baby steps, then we'll getcha to Kansas City like boitoirich said.

----------


## warreng88

From Steve's chat:

*Comment From Gary T*
With the redevelopment of Stage Center and the Preftakes block, what block becomes the most important block for a future tower?

*Steve Lackmeyer*
I think we will likely see mid-rise development at Broadway, E.K. Gaylord and NW 4 across from the YMCA. I think we will see similar development at the former Bank of America drive-through north of the Oklahoma City Museum of Art. Both sites are attractive candidates for high-rises, but again, based on what I'm currently hearing, we're likely looking at mid-rises instead. This leaves us with the SandRidge parking lots at NW 5 and Broadway and the area around the future Core to Shore Park as the only realistic areas left for high-rise development.

Sorry soondoc, looks like you are going to have to deal with midrises...

----------


## Pete

He completely forgot about the Cox Center, which has specifically targeted by a city study for high rise office development.

There is a good chance the Cox Center will be gone by 2019, which is not that far away.

----------


## soondoc

> From Steve's chat:
> 
> *Comment From Gary T*
> With the redevelopment of Stage Center and the Preftakes block, what block becomes the most important block for a future tower?
> 
> *Steve Lackmeyer*
> I think we will likely see mid-rise development at Broadway, E.K. Gaylord and NW 4 across from the YMCA. I think we will see similar development at the former Bank of America drive-through north of the Oklahoma City Museum of Art. Both sites are attractive candidates for high-rises, but again, based on what I'm currently hearing, we're likely looking at mid-rises instead. This leaves us with the SandRidge parking lots at NW 5 and Broadway and the area around the future Core to Shore Park as the only realistic areas left for high-rise development.
> 
> Sorry soondoc, looks like you are going to have to deal with midrises...


Yeah, I'm getting used to the fact that perhaps that is all OKC is capable of.  Sometimes you have to realize we aren't Austin or even Tulsa when it comes to building high rises.  It is what it is I guess.

----------


## Richard at Remax

> Yeah, I'm getting used to the fact that perhaps that is all OKC is capable of.  Sometimes you have to realize we aren't Austin or even Tulsa when it comes to building high rises.  It is what it is I guess.


Im sure someone will respond with facts to show you that statement is just silly but I have to ask. How do you sleep at night with such disappointment in building heights?

----------


## bchris02

> Yeah, I'm getting used to the fact that perhaps that is all OKC is capable of.  Sometimes you have to realize we aren't Austin or even Tulsa when it comes to building high rises.  It is what it is I guess.


I don't forsee Tulsa getting a new tallest any time in the near future.  Austin is another ballgame.  Whenever OKC has the growth and hype that Austin is enjoying, then you can complain about OKC not getting 500+ ft residential towers like they are getting.

----------


## warreng88

> Yeah, I'm getting used to the fact that perhaps that is all OKC is capable of.  *Sometimes you have to realize we aren't Austin or even Tulsa when it comes to building high rises.*  It is what it is I guess.


Which is a completely ignorant statement considering Tulsa has not built a "High rise" in about 30 years. OKC built one two years ago.

----------


## Swake

> Which is a completely ignorant statement considering Tulsa has not built a "High rise" in about 30 years. OKC built one two years ago.


What about the 17 story Cimarex building that opened last year and the 26 story hotel under construction right now on the river?

----------


## Bellaboo

> What about the 17 story Cimarex building that opened last year and the 26 story hotel under construction right now on the river?


If it's not 50 stories, soondoc considers it a mid-rise....lol

----------


## soondoc

> Which is a completely ignorant statement considering Tulsa has not built a "High rise" in about 30 years. OKC built one two years ago.


A completely correct statement when they have already have more high rises over 500 feet than OKC.  Watch your ignorant statement there Mr. Warren, kind of getting tired of it.  It is a fact that OKC only has one building in OKC besides Devon that is 500 feet and that lone building is exactly that.  Tulsa does have more taller buildings and it is obvious to any human eyeball it just looks nicer.  I want that changed, thus my comments.

----------


## BrettM2

> A completely correct statement when they have already have more high rises over 500 feet than OKC.  Watch your ignorant statement there Mr. Warren, kind of getting tired of it.  It is a fact that OKC only has one building in OKC besides Devon that is 500 feet and that lone building is exactly that.  Tulsa does have more taller buildings and it is obvious to any human eyeball it just looks nicer.  I want that changed, thus my comments.


Then build your own building.

----------


## warreng88

> A completely correct statement when they have already have more high rises over 500 feet than OKC.  Watch your ignorant statement there Mr. Warren, kind of getting tired of it.  It is a fact that OKC only has one building in OKC besides Devon that is 500 feet and that lone building is exactly that.  Tulsa does have more taller buildings and it is obvious to any human eyeball it just looks nicer.  I want that changed, thus my comments.


You said, "Sometimes you have to realize we aren't Austin or even Tulsa when it comes to *building* high rises." That is an incorrect statement in that Tulsa is not "building" any high rises by your standards. Yes, they have four buildings 500' of taller and we only have two, but that is not what you said. It may have been what you meant, but it is not what you said.

----------


## OkieNate

> Then build your own building.


Don't you know its only fun to be irrational and ridiculous when talking about someone else's money. And to blame the city of OKC for building these too short lets you know this person is not someone to pay attention to or get worked up over. The city of Oklahoma City isn't designing or building anything. Its PC/Hines and Clayco/Sterns.

----------


## Swake

> You said, "Sometimes you have to realize we aren't Austin or even Tulsa when it comes to *building* high rises." That is an incorrect statement in that Tulsa is not "building" any high rises by your standards. Yes, they have four buildings 500' of taller and we only have two, but that is not what you said. It may have been what you meant, but it is not what you said.


The general definitions are that a mid-rise is a 4-10 story building, a high-rise has 11 or more stories, and a super tall is a high-rise taller than 300 meters.

Both Tulsa and Oklahoma City have many high rises.

----------


## bchris02

> The general definitions are that a mid-rise is a 4-10 story building, a high-rise has 11 or more stories, and a super tall is a high-rise taller than 300 meters.
> 
> Both Tulsa and Oklahoma City have many high rises.


Several pages back there was a big argument between everyone here and Dr. Sooner on what the definition of a midrise and a highrise was.  Per his definition, nothing being built in Tulsa or OKC is worth to be called a highrise.  They are all midrises.

----------


## bchris02

Also, Tulsa can keep the Cimarex building.  It has to be one of the ugliest high-rises I've seen constructed anywhere in recent history in my opinion.  A plain glass box is more appealing.

----------


## Swake

> Also, Tulsa can keep the Cimarex building.  It has to be one of the ugliest high-rises I've seen constructed anywhere in recent history in my opinion.  A plain glass box is more appealing.


I'd box it up and ship it your way if you want. It's pretty terrible.

----------


## warreng88

> The general definitions are that a mid-rise is a 4-10 story building, a high-rise has 11 or more stories, and a super tall is a high-rise taller than 300 meters.
> 
> Both Tulsa and Oklahoma City have many high rises.


I know that. 
You know that. 
Soondoc doesn't seem to know that.

----------


## Just the facts

Since we are talking about height definitions again here is how I look at it.  Mid-rise and high-rise are relative context sensitive definitions.  What is a high-rise one city might only be a mid-rise in another city and even within the same city over time the definition changes. Here is how I classify them.

No-rise: 1 floor
Low-rise: 2 to 5 floors
Mid-rise:  5 floors up to the thickness of the urban fabric when viewed from a distance
High-rise: Sticks up out of the urban fabric when viewed from a distance
Skyscraper:  One or more buildings that dominate the skyline when viewed from a distance
SuperTall:  Over 1000'

----------


## warreng88

> Since we are talking about height definitions again here is how I look at it.  Mid-rise and high-rise are relative context sensitive definitions.  What is a high-rise one city might only be a mid-rise in another city and even within the same city over time the definition changes. Here is how I classify them.
> 
> No-rise: 1 floor
> Low-rise: 2 to 5 floors
> Mid-rise:  5 floors up to the thickness of the urban fabric when viewed from a distance
> High-rise: Sticks up out of the urban fabric when viewed from a distance
> Skyscraper:  One or more buildings that dominate the skyline when viewed from a distance
> SuperTall:  Over 1000'


So, by your definition and your picture, all the Clayco buildings and the Preftakes tower would be high rises, correct?

----------


## David

Not if you carefully take the picture so they aren't in the frame!

----------


## NWOKCGuy

> Several pages back there was a big argument between everyone here and Dr. Sooner on what the definition of a midrise and a highrise was.  Per his definition, nothing being built in Tulsa or OKC is worth to be called a highrise.  They are all midrises.


Several pages back on this thread, several pages on the OGE thread, several pages on the Preftakes thread, several pages on the convention center hotel thread... okay, not on that thread, yet.

----------


## Laramie

One source's definition

Skyscraper:  Very tall multistoried building. The term originally applied to buildings of 10–20 stories, _but now generally describes high-rises of more than 40–50 stories._ James Bogardus (1800–1874) built the pioneering Cast Iron Building, New York (1848), with a rigid iron frame providing the main support for upper-floor and roof loads...

Skyscraper - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

----------


## Just the facts

> So, by your definition and your picture, all the Clayco buildings and the Preftakes tower would be high rises, correct?


Maybe. If they don't rise up out of the urban fabric with noticeable sky on each side then they would just add to the thickness of the urban fabric and be a midrise.  Do that enough and Oklahoma Tower, FNC, City Place, and Sandridge drop down into the mid-rise category.  The Colcord was OKCs first skyscraper and its not even visible in this picture.

----------


## shawnw

Was the Colcord built before the Pioneer building?  Thought I remembered a tour guide saying it was first...

----------


## Snowman

> Was the Colcord built before the Pioneer building?  Thought I remembered a tour guide saying it was first...


It was completed five years before the Pioneer building

----------


## TU 'cane

> Also, Tulsa can keep the Cimarex building.  It has to be one of the ugliest high-rises I've seen constructed anywhere in recent history in my opinion.  A plain glass box is more appealing.


It's horrendous. There was so much potential for it given it's location. Tulsa's skyline from the West and South, and even North, could have been changed for the better had the design of the building been more appealing, you know, with more glass and steel. Instead, it looks like a giant hospital. We definitely missed our mark on that one. 




> I'd box it up and ship it your way if you want. It's pretty terrible.


Quick do it. 
And they can't re-gift it.

----------


## Rover

> So, by your definition and your picture, all the Clayco buildings and the Preftakes tower would be high rises, correct?


Generally speaking and by most real definitions low rise is 4 or less, mid-rise is 5 to either 10 or 12 floors, and high-rise is over 10-12.   Then there are super talls which are generally considered starting at 300m or roughly 1,000 ft.

Skyscraper is a more subjective and relative term.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

The Pioneer Building was built in 1907. Colcord was built in 1910.

----------


## cagoklahoma

I'm starting to wonder if Steve somehow gets paid for every post in this thread... it seems that when I think the "Mystery Tower" has been revealed and the thread should end Steve drops hints at more towers.  :Wink:  It's just an exciting time to be in OKC.

----------


## Spartan

> Since we are talking about height definitions again here is how I look at it.  Mid-rise and high-rise are relative context sensitive definitions.  What is a high-rise one city might only be a mid-rise in another city and even within the same city over time the definition changes. Here is how I classify them.
> 
> No-rise: 1 floor
> Low-rise: 2 to 5 floors
> Mid-rise:  5 floors up to the thickness of the urban fabric when viewed from a distance
> High-rise: Sticks up out of the urban fabric when viewed from a distance
> Skyscraper:  One or more buildings that dominate the skyline when viewed from a distance
> SuperTall:  Over 1000'


Leadership Square 1 is midrise?? (2, yeah..)

----------


## Rover

The variance usually in the gray area for midrise is whether it ends at 10 floors or at 12, except for general discussion, which is making it wherever a person wants.  In general discussion, most things are really subjective anyway.

----------


## HOT ROD

i would say move JTF's highrise line down to line up with the 14 floor FNC additions and move the skyscraper line down to line up with Leadership Square and it would be absolutely correct. His midrise section is too big and does have a hole in it (at FNC), meaning it should be at FNC given his definition of midrise continual massing.

Highrises are anything above the 14 floor FNC midrise additions (BOK, Leadership Square, Continental, Renaissance, Sheraton, perhaps Dowell) and skyscrapers are above Leadership Square/Continental (Devon, Chase, FNC tower, City Place, OK Tower, Sandridge) given that they have blue sky all around and dominate their section of the skyline (and if alone, would completely dominate the area). Devon is just short of a supertall (only 130 more feet).

All of the new buildings (as currently proposed) would be highrises but not skyscrapers (but would be if not in downtown).

----------


## traxx

> multistoried [/B]building.


You would think that would go without saying. Can't say I've known of too many +900' single story buildings.

----------


## UnFrSaKn

It seems most of the "mystery towers" are no longer mysteries.

----------


## OKCisOK4me

> It seems most of the "mystery towers" are no longer mysteries.


It's more like Mystery Properties.

----------


## betts

Sounds like some of the towers are fading into the mist with the drop in oil prices.

----------


## bchris02

> Sounds like some of the towers are fading into the mist with the drop in oil prices.


I am not sure what else was a strong possibility other than 5 potential Clayco towers, 499 Sheridan, and the Convention Center hotel.  That's 7 towers.  Hopefully Clayco does what they said they would do and that all five get built.

----------


## dankrutka

> I am not sure what else was a strong possibility other than 5 potential Clayco towers, 499 Sheridan, and the Convention Center hotel.  That's 7 towers.  Hopefully Clayco does what they said they would do and that all five get built.


Clayco seemed to indicate today that their plans are shaky... maybe even to build one residential tower. Right?

----------


## bchris02

> Clayco seemed to indicate today that their plans are shaky... maybe even to build one residential tower. Right?


So Clayco may build one office tower and that's it?

----------


## LocoAko

> So Clayco may build one office tower and that's it?


I think it is just the residential towers that are shaky, but I could be wrong.

----------


## ChrisHayes

This drop in oil prices isn't permanent. I'm betting they'll be on the way back up within a few weeks. After they see that I'm betting they'll start getting back on track

----------


## gopokes88

That's hilariously short-sighted. Why would you panic about today's oil prices (no one knows what direction they are heading) for a project that opens in 3 years when people reallllly don't know where oil prices will be?

----------


## bchris02

> That's hilariously short-sighted. Why would you panic about today's oil prices (no one knows what direction they are heading) for a project that opens in 3 years when people reallllly don't know where oil prices will be?


It only makes sense if they are just looking for an excuse to not build what they said they would.  If three months of depressed oil prices is causing Clayco to rethink the viability of this development, perhaps they shouldn't have proposed it in the first place.

----------


## gurantula35

Just had a random memory of me always checking this thread back in College.  Any behind the scenes stuff going on about a new potential tower?  Other than what has already been announced, of course.

----------


## king183

> Just had a random memory of me always checking this thread back in College.  Any behind the scenes stuff going on about a new potential tower?  Other than what has already been announced, of course.


Given the office space market in the city, with two of the larger towers with massive vacancy issues that don’t appear to be resolving in the near future, I seriously doubt we will see a new tower any time soon (except for the Bricktown hotels, that is).  I think there is quite an opportunity to build more residential mid-rises, though. I think we will learn a lot from how First National does with their residences.

----------


## jn1780

Can't even get the owner of the largest tower to take of their building.

----------


## BoulderSooner

> Given the office space market in the city, with two of the larger towers with massive vacancy issues that don’t appear to be resolving in the near future, I seriously doubt we will see a new tower any time soon (except for the Bricktown hotels, that is).  I think there is quite an opportunity to build more residential mid-rises, though. I think we will learn a lot from how First National does with their residences.


any new tower at this point would have to be company specific and filled ..

----------


## G.Walker

Most developers now just want new office towers to be 50% pre-leased before they break ground. 

The only shot we have in the foreseeable future is OG&E making good on their promise to build a new office tower on the old Stage Center site. 

They backed out 6 years ago when the price of oil was $31 a barrel. Oil is doing pretty good now, and the 2022 forecast looks really good, so we will see what happens.

----------


## PhiAlpha

Its back!

----------


## jn1780

20 years from now when they actually build a tower, the OP's of this thread are going to come back and say "See, I told you!"   :Smile:  

Besides oil prices and commercial real estate, Covid started a whole new work from home trend. Some companies have no interest in this trend while others like mine have hired a bunch of workers over the past two years that live a couple of hundred miles away. Even if upper management decided to go back to the old ways, it would take awhile to replace the remote workers with local through attrition.

----------


## G.Walker

Not necessarily, there were surveys and articles published regarding how big corporations want people in the office. It cited people were more productive and work relationships have more synergy when people are in the office. Moreover, corporations were looking actually needing more space, for more wide open footprints, for social distancing. 

And big office and residential development sure hasn't slowed down in other cities like Austin, Salt Lake City, Nashville, & Charlotte.

----------


## Laramie

> Not necessarily, there were surveys and articles published regarding how big corporations want people in the office. It cited people were more productive and work relationships have more synergy when people are in the office. Moreover, corporations were looking actually needing more space, for more wide open footprints, for social distancing. 
> 
> And big office and residential development sure hasn't slowed down in other cities like Austin, Salt Lake City, Nashville, & Charlotte.


+1

Logical that people are more productive b/c in a more formal work environment there are a lot less distractions with employees staying more focused.

----------


## fortpatches

On the flip side, the average worker gains about 5hrs a week personal time. The average commute time in the US is 27.6 min one-way, or roughly an hour a day. That is roughly the equivalent of 10 more personal days per year, or two more (work) weeks of vacation equivalent. 

One down-side is it is hard to separate home-time from work-time. Which can go both ways, of people not working enough hours to those that lose track of time and work much longer than their regular 8. 

So, production gains may include employees not taking as long a lunch, employees working beyond normal hours, which might otherwise be used for transportation for example, employees not chatting at the water cooler, etc. 

Of court there are plenty of fields where WFH is not an option. But in some fields, there is absolutely no reason to make people go into an office, like telemarketing or telephone-based customer service positions. There is no amount of pizza and comradery to slow that turn over. 

IMHO the biggest issue with WFH, I predict, we haven't even fully seen yet - nationalizing the labor market. When people can WFH, their location is immaterial. So a new employee (Adam, say) in a lower COL location (e.g., Oklahoma) can get a job for a business in a high COL location (e.g., California) where the business can pay lower wages than they would for a local Cali employee but still higher than Adam would be able to find in Oklahoma. This will have two large impacts - jobs considered low-skilled that can WFH will be farmed out to lower cost of living areas - thereby driving up wages in low COL areas (Oklahoma) as employers there have to compete with companies nationally instead of just locally, thereby causing the unemployment rate in low COL areas to be abnormally low while, simultaneously, increasing the unemployment rate in higher COL areas because employees there cannot afford to take a pay cut and still pay bills. Average wages have increase a lot over the last couple years - but I think we will see that increase (as a percent of pay) happening faster in lower COL areas than higher COL areas.

----------


## PhiAlpha

I would imagine the future will be a combination of in the office and WFH as apposed to either/or. I think employers are going to find a balance and be a lot more flexible. I already know a few who are trying out a 3 days in the office, 2 days from home type schedule or some variation of that.

----------


## jn1780

> IMHO the biggest issue with WFH, I predict, we haven't even fully seen yet - nationalizing the labor market. When people can WFH, their location is immaterial. So a new employee (Adam, say) in a lower COL location (e.g., Oklahoma) can get a job for a business in a high COL location (e.g., California) where the business can pay lower wages than they would for a local Cali employee but still higher than Adam would be able to find in Oklahoma. This will have two large impacts - jobs considered low-skilled that can WFH will be farmed out to lower cost of living areas - thereby driving up wages in low COL areas (Oklahoma) as employers there have to compete with companies nationally instead of just locally, thereby causing the unemployment rate in low COL areas to be abnormally low while, simultaneously, increasing the unemployment rate in higher COL areas because employees there cannot afford to take a pay cut and still pay bills. Average wages have increase a lot over the last couple years - but I think we will see that increase (as a percent of pay) happening faster in lower COL areas than higher COL areas.


This is already what we have been seeing with outsourcing.  The companies that haven't yet outsourced overseas, are trying to keep time zones aligned or want to keep their work force close to the customer.

----------


## bombermwc

> This is already what we have been seeing with outsourcing.  The companies that haven't yet outsourced overseas, are trying to keep time zones aligned or want to keep their work force close to the customer.


Yup, that's called outsourcing. And its far from new that companies are attracted to lower income areas. It's very common that even if your HQ is in an expensive town, that the Operations is not. In OKC, Hertz would be a perfect example of that. HQ=New Jersey. Ops=OKC. 

Anyone that does business in California knows that it's best to "get outta dodge" for Ops as soon as possible. It's simply too expensive and restrictive to make a profit for regular shared services environments. And when the US markets start looking too good for the employees, well we can't have that, so overseas we go.  :Frown:

----------


## TheTravellers

> Yup, that's called outsourcing. And its far from new that companies are attracted to lower income areas. It's very common that even if your HQ is in an expensive town, that the Operations is not. In OKC, Hertz would be a perfect example of that. HQ=New Jersey. Ops=OKC. 
> 
> Anyone that does business in California knows that it's best to "get outta dodge" for Ops as soon as possible. It's simply too expensive and restrictive to make a profit for regular shared services environments. And when the US markets start looking too good for the employees, well we can't have that, so overseas we go.


Actually, Hertz's HQ is in Florida now, the process started while I was working there (2009-2015, working for a subcontractor of IBM, who is a contractor itself, running Hertz's IT) and I believe is complete now.

----------


## Bellaboo

My wife retired from Hertz at the end of the year. Spent 43 years, 3 months and a week there. Happily retired now.

----------


## Bellaboo

Hertz started in OKC as a reservation center. And the reason they chose OKC was due to the central location in the country and the fact that phone service charges in the early 1970's was by the line mile. That's why a lot of res centers were started in the Great Plains.

----------


## zefferoni

> Not necessarily, there were surveys and articles published regarding how big corporations want people in the office. It cited people were more productive and work relationships have more synergy when people are in the office. Moreover, corporations were looking actually needing more space, for more wide open footprints, for social distancing. 
> 
> And big office and residential development sure hasn't slowed down in other cities like Austin, Salt Lake City, Nashville, & Charlotte.


That's interesting.  My department and the part of the company we belong to as a whole were 20%-30% more productive while working from home.  The company surprised everybody by instating a permanent work from home option for 2 days a week.  
Just anecdotally, I find there are a lot fewer interruptions and distractions at home than at the office.  At home, I don't have someone interrupting me every 10 minutes (granted I don't have kids).

----------


## GaryOKC6

I work with some of the city's largest employers.  We have been told that having employees in the office is definitely more beneficial.  There are too many opportunities to collaborate throughout the day.  What I have learned is that the companies that were transitioning to work from home before the pandemic are headed that way but most of the large office environments are planning to grow their space.

----------


## Bellaboo

Saw a news report the other day that a lot of employees have admitted to being high or using alcohol during work time while working from home.

----------


## ChrisHayes

> Saw a news report the other day that a lot of employees have admitted to being high or using alcohol during work time while working from home.


What a shock! In theory, working from home sounds good. But in reality, being at the workplace is probably a better idea. You can see what your employees are doing, leading to better accountability. Then, on a social front, it leads to more social interaction. I'm a believer that in coming years, we're going to learn that doing things from home such as shopping, work, etc, leading to less social interaction, is going to have some bad ramifications.

----------


## bombermwc

> I work with some of the city's largest employers.  We have been told that having employees in the office is definitely more beneficial.  There are too many opportunities to collaborate throughout the day.  What I have learned is that the companies that were transitioning to work from home before the pandemic are headed that way but most of the large office environments are planning to grow their space.


I'd be interested to know that source, because everything I have read is that companies are shedding real estate like a wildfire and keeping users remote. What they are creating is smaller collaboration space offices where people come in as-needed or for meetings, then go right back home. Basically where the entire small office is one big hotelling space. Yes there are some out there that won't ever do that, but the cube farm isn't going to look the same as people re-work their spaces. It will still be a few years before we see how all of this settles out though.

----------


## jedicurt

> I'd be interested to know that source, because everything I have read is that companies are shedding real estate like a wildfire and keeping users remote. What they are creating is smaller collaboration space offices where people come in as-needed or for meetings, then go right back home. Basically where the entire small office is one big hotelling space. Yes there are some out there that won't ever do that, but the cube farm isn't going to look the same as people re-work their spaces. It will still be a few years before we see how all of this settles out though.


same.   and i can speak from personal experience at my company that we are significantly more productive at home than we ever were in office, and we now work 4 remote and 1 day in the office, and it's very easy to see that everyone's 1 day in the office is their least productive day.   As a manager of a team, i'm torn, because i use the 1 day my team is in office to get done my one-on-ones, reviews, team meetings, etc.   but it is without a doubt the day we get the least amount of actual company work done.

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## jedicurt

> Saw a news report the other day that a lot of employees have admitted to being high or using alcohol during work time while working from home.


the real question. do those same employees also admit to being the ones that would go out to their cars and get high, or have a few cocktails at lunch before going back to the office?   because i know a handful of fellow employees at every place i have worked at who used to do that a few times a week, for the past 2 decades...

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## G.Walker

I've actually been working from home since COVID started. And my alcohol consumption has dramatically increased. I am currently seeking help with a counselor.

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## Plutonic Panda

> I've actually been working from home since COVID started. And my alcohol consumption has dramatically increased. I am currently seeking help with a counselor.


Good luck to you. I’ve been going through the same but haven’t had help yet. It’s gotten very bad. I hope you pull through it.

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## T. Jamison

> I've actually been working from home since COVID started. And my alcohol consumption has dramatically increased. I am currently seeking help with a counselor.


Best of luck. The same thing happened to me, so I quit February 2021. Granted, I also went back to the office a few months later which made it easier.

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## jedicurt

> I've actually been working from home since COVID started. And my alcohol consumption has dramatically increased. I am currently seeking help with a counselor.


i wish you well and hope you are able to get it under control.  we went full remote at the start of covid, and just recently went to being in office one day a week, and strangely, my alcohol consumption has dramatically decreased.  I don't find having to get home and feel like i need a whiskey to calm down from my drive, or the frustrations of work.  

and granted both of our experiences are just anecdotal. and trust me, WFH was rough on my mentally for awhile.  I had to adjust how i get social interactions with others, and that took probably six months.    I really do wish you are successful with the help you have seeked out.

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## OkiePoke

I drank a lot more in 2020 vs 2021. Starting in 2021, I took advantage of the WFH setup to focus on my mental and physical health. That trend is continuing to 2022. I hope the best to ones struggling with it. What benefited me was focusing on a hobby/goal I wanted, which make drinking a burden to those goals.

If you want to get actual information on how WFH/Remote affects productivity, you shouldn't look into what your company indicates to you, or any other anecdotal evidence. There are pros and cons to it. It depends on what your company values which determines if they want people back in the office or allows wfh/remote.

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## Teo9969

It's amazing just how conflicted the "research" is on all of this.  The reality is that anyone doing real research should just be collecting data points for later review. We can't possibly know the real ramifications of WFH.

I suspect there are a lot of factors that pay into whether WFH might be more or less constructive and whether someone's health will be better or worse working from home depending on their job situation and living situation. I mean, we have someone in my office who commutes from Tulsa on a daily basis and they're actively seeking promotion within the company as opposed to trying to find their way out. I can imagine that there is a lot about the in office culture that the individual enjoys to seemingly enjoy that commute.

Even within the same company some departments might do better WFH and others might do better in the office.

I do find the interstate employment to be the most interesting element of all this and I suspect we'll see some legislation come to light if things get crazy enough.

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## bombermwc

We've definitely picked up on the remote hires at all levels, up to C-Suite. Unless you have to physically touch paper, most people are just being hired remotely from all over the US. And partly because technology is set up in a way where you can do that securely now without working with your pants down. But there are plenty of companies out there that did get caught without proper security...just google news stories over the pandemic about security breaches. The smaller businesses just can't always pay for the extra tools needed like the larger ones can (MFA/Traffic Scanning/etc). Of course, they may not be as much of a target as a larger one either. It's a crap-shoot.

My own organization is saving money in real estate, but shipping expenses have gone through the roof. And terminations are thus more complicated. I mean when someone is terminated, they usually aren't super cooperative with returning their gear. And that has been a definite challenge to stay on top of. I think it's too early to evaluate if the savings from real estate have shown to be an overall savings for the company because of extra efforts for recovery/analysis/etc for terminated users. It's just too early to really see where this stuff will settle.

I think things have forever changed, But I personally think we're currently seeing an extreme that will settle to a hybrid model in 5 years. But that's just my crystal ball outlook.

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## GaryOKC6

> I'd be interested to know that source, because everything I have read is that companies are shedding real estate like a wildfire and keeping users remote. What they are creating is smaller collaboration space offices where people come in as-needed or for meetings, then go right back home. Basically where the entire small office is one big hotelling space. Yes there are some out there that won't ever do that, but the cube farm isn't going to look the same as people re-work their spaces. It will still be a few years before we see how all of this settles out though.


The source was me.  I was in an economic round table meeting with several of the major employers present.  I don't want to name any names.  This was in August.

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## GaryOKC6

We continue to attract in-office employers adding about 600 jobs to OKC.   Liberty Dental (150) and Signify Health (200) should be opening their facilities very soon.  Consumer Cellular (300) to follow shortly thereafter.  There are others in the works that have yet to announce.

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## HangryHippo

> We continue to attract in-office employers adding about 600 jobs to OKC.   Liberty Dental (150) and Signify Health (200) should be opening their facilities very soon.  Consumer Cellular (300) to follow shortly thereafter.  There are others in the works that have yet to announce.


Are these call centers?

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## GaryOKC6

More or less.  They are back room operations such as customer service, billing, payment processing ect.  All pay well.

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## HangryHippo

> More or less.  They are back room operations such as customer service, billing, payment processing ect.  All pay well.


Cool.  Looking forward to the other announcements.

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## bombermwc

> More or less.  They are back room operations such as customer service, billing, payment processing ect.  All pay well.


If they are call centers, then the reps will end up going remote if the companies want to be competitive with the million other call centers around here.

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## sgt. pepper

Obviously, this thread has nothing to do with a "mystery tower" anymore....lol

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## Scott5114

> What a shock! In theory, working from home sounds good. But in reality, being at the workplace is probably a better idea. You can see what your employees are doing, leading to better accountability. Then, on a social front, it leads to more social interaction. I'm a believer that in coming years, we're going to learn that doing things from home such as shopping, work, etc, leading to less social interaction, is going to have some bad ramifications.


I think this is the reflexive opinion from management types...but in practice a lot of the "accountability" that gets practiced in person is policing stuff that really doesn't matter to the bottom line. Things like how people dress, how they speak, whether they start or end working according to a strict schedule, how much time they spend on lunch, etc. We're learning with work from home that in a lot of industries, none of these things really matter, and people do better work when they're just allowed to do it without the distraction of someone breathing down their necks. Some businesses may find that with work from home they don't really need a lot of middle managers focused on enforcing these sorts of hall-monitor rules. I think that has a lot of managers scared they're going to be downsized out the door.

Social interaction with coworkers is something I don't miss at all. I've never worked somewhere where I have a whole lot in common with most of my coworkers anyway, so it's just nine hours straight of "how's the weather, what are you doing this weekend, how 'bout them Sooners" sort of conversation. I'd rather cut that sort of time-wasting conversation out of my day and be at home where I can at least message my actual out-of-work friends in a separate window in between getting work tasks done.

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## bombermwc

> Obviously, this thread has nothing to do with a "mystery tower" anymore....lol


Its skewed a bit but to a related topic. There are conflicting opinions on if there would be enough demand to spark the need for a tower.

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## stratosphere

Our group has been working from home since late March of 2020,  honestly it has its benefits,  but also my house feels like a prison.  And there are certain aspects of my job that i really need to be in the office for.  I feel that working from home has hurt my job performance.  

That said,  with the price of gas increase over the past year,  and the never ending road constructions projects ongoing,  driving anywhere on the highways is anxiety inducing.  I think a good compromise would be working from home 2 days per week and in the office 3 days.  

Hopefully we return to some form of normalcy at some point in the near future.  Most of my coworkers that i speak with somewhat agree.

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## Snowman

I have been working from home since march 2020, for me it has pretty much all been upside, granted I am somewhat of an introvert so deal with being on my own pretty well. My job transitions pretty much as well as possible to working remotely, kind of related my field tends to attract introverts so between that and how we work we were not doing that much interaction in the office anyway, so working from my home office was mostly just an upgrade from the cubical I was spending work hours in before. 

Not having to deal with traffic makes the start and end of the day much more pleasant. I expect I save around 2 hours a day between not having to commute, shorter prep at start of day, shorter lunches since eating at home verses driving and getting fast food (granted started getting fast food occasionally again after got vaccine). The saving on fuel and lunch add up to at least a couple thousand per year, harder to estimate is savings from reduced millage/wear on car.

Plus had switched up my diet  before covid mostly just for variety, but was kind of surprised with that started dropping body fat percentage on a small but noticeable on the scale of a month after that. Then pulled out the exercise equipment had from college out of storage shortly after was working from home. Now after a couple years of this am at the lowest body fat percentage have been since I quit playing multiple sports in middle school. 

I would rather not go back to working in an office.

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## Pete

Estimates show that on average, a business pays about $18,000 per year per employee for office space.  If you employ lots of people, that's a ton of overhead.

I've said it before, but the pandemic has demonstrated that technology has finally caught up and that telecommuting is completely feasible.

As decision-makers start to be replaced by younger people not so invested in the butts-in-seats management style, I think we are going to see some profound shifts in not only the way businesses work, but the likely dispersion of population as employees won't necessarily need to live near an office; or even a city.  That in turn means that companies won't have to pay Silicon Valley and big-city salaries.

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## Pete

Also, I wanted to add that this pandemic may finally force real change in education.

For all the advances in the last century, school is still almost exactly the same:  an adult (almost always a woman) stands in front of 20-30 kids and lectures.  Yes, there are iPads and smartboards and computers, but the classroom is still very much the same.  Same in college, they've just added outlets so students can plug in their laptops.

Education will be slower to change because everyone in it is a direct product of the way things have always been done.  And for high school and below, schools have always been functional daycare for parents, as we've seen in the recent forced more to remote learning.

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## Swake

I've been involved in 10-15 office changes in the last couple of years for my company. New offices, closed offices, expand, shrink, you name it.

At first with the pandemic we expected no changes to offices. Then we started closing smaller offices that had no technology footprint and sending the workers to work from home, but the larger offices were unchanged. Pre-Omicron we had announced a move to a formal hybrid model where employees could go in as little or much as they could work out with their manager with the goal that most employees would come in 2-3 days a week. That model was never put into place with Omicron and as of now, employees only go if they have a reason. And anyone that goes in is required to be vaccinated.  

Before Covid we had just completed a project to redo all offices to an open floor plan with very few private offices and lots of collaboration spaces. Everyone is basically in a low walled cubicle with people packed in tight around them. The hybrid home/office policy post Covid thinking was that if only half an office was present at a time it would allow for better social distancing. 

My current office project is to expand an office in Ireland and as of now it's on hold as the execs decide what to do with offices. Some want most employees back in the office eventually, but that would mean the open floor plan model is out, so we would need much more office space. Some people want employees mostly home and close even more offices. A third idea I have heard is a hybrid model with very few assigned employee offices/spaces and shared workspaces, but not with an open floorpan. Regardless, there will be big changes.

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## Dob Hooligan

> Also, I wanted to add that this pandemic may finally force real change in education.
> 
> For all the advances in the last century, school is still almost exactly the same:  an adult (almost always a woman) stands in front of 20-30 kids and lectures.  Yes, there are iPads and smartboards and computers, but the classroom is still very much the same.  Same in college, they've just added outlets so students can plug in their laptops.
> 
> Education will be slower to change because everyone in it is a direct product of the way things have always been done.  And for high school and below, schools have always been functional daycare for parents, as we've seen in the recent forced more to remote learning.


Could you expand on how you think it should change? I believe educating minors is mostly about social interaction and cooperation, and I’m not sure what you feel could be changed.

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## Dob Hooligan

Let me suggest that humans are social creatures, and the vast majority of jobs will always require face to face interaction. Obviously, blue collar and service jobs are interactive. So it appears we are discussing large, white collar businesses and how they can operate without offices? But when a business cannot operate with zero office activity, I think it will require maximum attendance in order to justify facility expense.

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## G.Walker

I will say that I have been working from home for 2 years now. But we do have an option to work in the office if we choose to. Or we can do a hybrid a few days home, a few days in the office. However, the more I work from home, the more I am considering going back to the office. 

One of the main issues we have had with employees working from home is from a technology stand point. When something goes wrong with your software or something breaks, there is not a IT person on hand to help you with the issue. And it usually takes hours to get the issue fixed. We have had some major technical issues with our employees working from home, either the VPN is not working, or its something else. This has caused major delays in daily production with employees.

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## Snowman

> Could you expand on how you think it should change? I believe educating minors is mostly about social interaction and cooperation, and I’m not sure what you feel could be changed.


There still seemed areas slow to shift away from basically evaluating students capacity to memorize for a test in an educational setting. If it is actually important then it seem like something that might be better standardized and the score broken out from individual subjects. However the importance of long term memorization seems to have been on the decline for decades, which often people forget most of specifics weeks after the class is done anyway.

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## bombermwc

> Could you expand on how you think it should change? I believe educating minors is mostly about social interaction and cooperation, and I’m not sure what you feel could be changed.


Agreed. The kids that came back this year from being virtual last year were absolutely insane. The teachers across the board had to retrain kids how to properly behave in the classroom. Translate that up to the workplace. Not everyone is going to be working remotely forever. And not being able to interact socially in the proper way and getting to be an anonymous voice on a Teams call, does not create the best environment. Think about how many times your own way of talking or working with someone changed after you met them face to face after first just meeting them over email. 

Kids need to be in the classroom. They need to learn how to juggle a schedule (and not have someone plan every minute of their life). They need to have to interact with a wide variety of authority figures. They need to navigate learning how to interact with a wide variety of different people, including friends, bullies, and everything in-between. They need to learn how to tackle the challenges of study/tests/activities. They need The Arts.

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## bombermwc

> Could you expand on how you think it should change? I believe educating minors is mostly about social interaction and cooperation, and Im not sure what you feel could be changed.


Agreed. The kids that came back this year from being virtual last year were absolutely insane. The teachers across the board had to retrain kids how to properly behave in the classroom. Translate that up to the workplace. Not everyone is going to be working remotely forever. And not being able to interact socially in the proper way and getting to be an anonymous voice on a Teams call, does not create the best environment. Think about how many times your own way of talking or working with someone changed after you met them face to face after first just meeting them over email. 

Kids need to be in the classroom. They need to learn how to juggle a schedule (and not have someone plan every minute of their life). They need to have to interact with a wide variety of authority figures. They need to navigate learning how to interact with a wide variety of different people, including friends, bullies, and everything in-between. They need to learn how to tackle the challenges of study/tests/activities. They need The Arts.

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## Rover

Kids dont need school just for socializing. They transition and learn habits and thought processes that enable them to learn their whole life.  They learn basic building blocks that acquiring, understanding, and building knowledge and reason grow from.  They learn respect for others than their parents. They learn how to follow orders and what accountability is.  They learn discipline. Yes, some of this is socialization, but much is just laying the foundation for future learning and mind development.

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## HOT ROD

well said Rover. 

Also happy to see OKC taking a big launch into being a back-office destination. If we can't land headquarters then let's get the back-office/operations/2nd HQ. They're not always call centers. And IMO these need office space even if the most of the employees are remote/vitrual.

Working for the very large Redmond-based IT Company that I work for it has been positive and negative working from my home office. Yes it's wonderful for work-life balance and flexibility as well as not having to participate in the Seattle area's notoriously horrible traffic but I do miss my office (granted I have a nice one though, lol). We have the option to flex, full remote, or full office upcoming; I've chosen to retain my office but also work from home half the week - flex. I suspect many more might agree there is value in being face-to-face for important meetings and collaborations but my individual work can be done at home giving me more time for personal freedom (or at least I can arrange my time without unnecessary outside impacts).

I can say from the pandemic prospective, I have been one of the lucky ones in that regardless of my child's school situation I could still keep working. I feel for everyone who has had to get/pay for support for their children and is one of the Biden initiatives I totally support and think they should just implement. We need to focus as a nation on our children and helping those who need it in order to even go to work. I digress but did want to express my gratitude to situation as well as my support for those who struggle.

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