# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Norman >  University North Park

## BG918

Interesting new development in the works for the undeveloped land west of the Norman airport along I-35 between Robinson and Tecumseh.  According to the developers it is going to be a large mixed-use district anchored by Super Target and will include retail, offices, restaurants, and residential with 24th Street becoming a tree-lined blvd. through the development.  From the Norman City Council minutes...

Mr. Carl Edwards, Managing Partner of Price, Edwards, and Company-Commercial Real Estate Services, provided a conceptual land use plan; an illustrative master plan; an aerial view of the retail district; a street level of the primary street; conceptual retail and office space around the Town Square; and proposed residential development to complement the retail center. 

The article...

University North Park plat OKd

By Carol Cole
The Norman Transcript

The first phase of the University North Park final plat was approved Tuesday on a split vote of 6-1 by the Norman City Council, despite last minute concerns that a 173,900-square-foot Super Target store would be built on top of a plugged oil well.

The 470,000-square-foot first phase will be on 69 acres north of Robinson Street, east of Interstate 35 and west of 24th Avenue NW, on land currently owned by the University of Oklahoma Foundation. 

It is the first phase of the 585-acre Planned Unit Development that is projected to be one of the top five single retail developments in the country if built out to its master plan.

Ryan Zick is Target representative for environmental services for property assessment and remediation from the corporations Minneapolis office.

Zick said Target would vent the well outside the structure and the corporation had hired the Kleinfelder corporation to remediate the well, which was plugged in 2002.

Councilmembers expressed concerns about the safety of building a store on the site. Council recently passed an ordinance becoming the first Oklahoma city to prohibit building habitable structures on top of wells.

But the habitable term was the phrase that left a loophole for commercial structures.

Bill Huey of Kleinfelder of Albuquerque, N.M., told councilmembers the firm had found no evidence of methane gas from the well and the firm was in the process of assessing any threat.

Huey said the oil field has never produced a significant amount of gas. At the time it was plugged, it was producing 85 barrels of oil and five gallons of water daily. The last record from the Oklahoma Corporation Commission showed oil, but no gas.

Its not likely that it would ever start producing gas, he said. Its forward thinking and responsible for Target to think about venting the well. 

Ward 7 councilmember Doug Cubberley offered an amendment of venting where the well is plugged as part of the final plat. It was approved 6-1 with Stanley voting no.

Im not happy at all to approve a commercial building situated on a well, Cubberley said. I think our teeth obviously have been filed.  But Im very pleased that Super Target is coming. 

A traffic analysis of the site included improvements that would be necessary to accommodate the more than 18,000 visits the development would generate. 

Those would include improvements at intersections on Robinson Street, 24th Avenue NW, Interstate Drive East, North Park Drive and Tecumseh Road.

Attorney Harold Heiple said some of the improvements might have to be done twice if the proposed $15 million tax increment financing district for traffic improvements was not approved. The double turn lanes at Robinson Street would not be required in the initial phase. 

Its better to put them in at the same time, said Tom McCaleb of Spears and McCaleb, engineer for the project.

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## metro

I was very excited when I saw this announcement last week. Supposively they are wanting to build an upscale shopping mall at this site as well.

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## John

The mountain is gone.  :Frown: 

I know SuperTarget is coming, which is awesome, but as I was driving into Norman coming home from Nebraska, our old friend has been leveled in the name of progress.

I knew it was coming, but it's strange to drive down I-35 and not see the mountain anymore.

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## Faith

Really!  I didn't know it was leveled... I grew up in Norman but I haven't drove that way in a few months.  :  (    But yes that is awesome that we will have a Super Target close to the southside.

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## metro

That mountain. You mean that dirtpile. I know it did have some memories but wasn't what it once was. It used to be a WWII shooting range. They are going to have a historic museum and plaques and such to honor that former site though

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## John

Yeah, it was the backstop for the shooting range on North Base. It stretched across what is now I-35.

The tower at Bob Moore Cadillac/Nissan, formerly Mark Heitz, was the lookout tower to see how well the pilots shot was.

I know they'll have mementos of our beloved dirt hill in some capacity, its just odd not to see it any longer.

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## dirtrider73068

Update on that dirt hill its still there they just started breaking ground adn got going on it, was by there last week it was still there on friday. If not mistaken its still there now or could have been started to come down. There is so much dirt there its goin gto take a long time to have it removed if they don't use it there on the building sites. Last I have read in the paper was they are going to sift through some of the dirt and try to find some of remmants of the bullets to put in a museum and the devopers have to errect a plaque with history on the dirt hill.

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## Pete

Anybody have a link to a site plan or renderings?

I'm having a hard time visualizing this project.

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## dirtrider73068

You might check cityofnorman.com and see if they have anything on the city website about the proposed project.

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## Pete

$20 million Super Target planned for Norman
by Brandice J. Armstrong
The Journal Record
12/30/2005

NORMAN - Construction for Norman's Super Target isn't set to begin until February but preparation work for the site can be seen from Interstate 35.

At a cost of more than $20 million, the Super Target will be just east of I-35 at Robinson Street and is scheduled for an October completion date. It is the first part of a two-phase project that will result in an upscale shopping center.

Situated on a 585-acre tract, Super Target will occupy nearly 174,000 square feet.

The second phase will cost between $35 million and $40 million.

For the second phase, 300,000 square feet will be set aside for additional shopping center retailers and restaurants, said Brad Goodwin, developing partner for Sooner Investment Companies, which is developing the property.

One restaurant will be Ted's Caf Escondido, said Don Wood, director of the Norman Economic Development Coalition. There are two Ted's cafs in Oklahoma City and one in Edmond.

"The development should have a diverse tenant mix," said Eric Fleske, co-owner of Equity Realty and a Norman resident. "People want a very aesthetically pleasing development and (want to) draw people from outside of Norman."

Upon completion of the Super Target, the existing 111,000 square foot store at 2417 W. Main St. will close.

"(Target) needed a new, bigger store," Wood said. "We hope (the Main Street store) will be occupied by another large box retailer. The current location is (one of) the highest traffic corners in Norman."

Wood did not specify which retailers would be the most likely candidates to take over the space.

W. Main Street between 36th Street West and 48th Street West has an average daily traffic count of 19,500 vehicles. The Robinson Street exit off I-35 has a daily traffic count of about 24,000 vehicles. In addition, about 67,000 vehicles pass the Robinson Street exit from I-35 each day, according to Norman's Department of Public Works average daily traffic count map for 2005.

Aimee Sands, a Target spokeswoman, said it was premature to comment about the project.

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## Nuclear_2525

Am I the only one that laughs when they talk about anchoring an "upscale" retail development with a Super Target?

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## Pete

This is an older article, but it provides more detail about the master plan:



August 11, 2005 12:30 am

Bigger and better?

University North Park
Carol Cole
The Norman Transcript
Norman, Okla. 

Size matters.

And *if the 290-acre University North Park shopping center is built out as specified in the master plan presented last week, it would rank in the top five shopping centers in square footage nationally  third largest in the nation with 2,666,000 square feet  according to 2004 numbers from the International Council of Shopping Centers.*

The master plan proposed by architects from Carter-Burgess and Little Diversified Architects included 1,976,000 square feet in retail, grocery and restaurants, 550,000 square feet in hospitality/hotels and 240,000 square feet in entertainment.

As a single project, it would be outranked only by South Coast Plaza in Costa Mesa, Calif., with 2.8 million square feet; Mall of America in Bloomington, Minn., with 2,779,242 square feet; and slightly ahead of the Plaza & Court at King of Prussia in King of Prussia, Pa., with 2,620,470 square feet.

It would rank ahead of any single project in Texas, with the Galleria in Houston coming in fifth at 2,402,902 square feet.



But there are lots of ifs:

 If the Norman City Council approves a $21 million tax increment financing district primarily for infrastructure improvements at Interstate 35 interchanges at Robinson and Tecumseh roads and a frontage road along the interstate. The development is planned for the undeveloped south half of 585 acres east of I-35, between Robinson Street and Tecumseh Road and west of Max Westheimer Airport, currently owned by the University of Oklahoma Foundation.

 If the retail stores build close to the specifications in the master plan. Plans are necessarily fluid, with stores asking for smaller or larger sites as the project develops.

 If the area is built totally out to 2,666,000 square feet.



The total number has changed and will continue to change, said Randy Stone of Carter-Burgess in Dallas. The original number Stone presented with the master plan at a Citizens TIF Ad Hoc Advisory Committee meeting Aug. 3 was 2,426,000 square feet.

The numbers for single projects are misleading, however, said Bob Stearns of Sooner Investment Company, which has been chosen by the OU Foundation to develop the area.

The reason those numbers are skewed for us in our favor is because we are able to call this one project, Stearns said, noting that some other areas of the state have high densities of retail in an area, such as the Memorial Road corridor in northwest Oklahoma City and the 71st Street area in Tulsa. But they are not going to call it one project, they are going to call it five projects [in Oklahoma City].

But what is the real retail dynamic behind the Quail Springs Mall area? Its probably closer to 3 to 4 million square feet. On one corner you have Target. On another corner you have Sams and Wal-Mart and on another you have Lowes and all those metal boxes lined up with them.



Creating a large single project does have its advantages.

What were able to do is control architecture and control how the ingress works and actually plan this and control the growth.  It really will turn out to be a much nicer environment. Because these cities really have limited control over what they can do if people meet the guidelines, he said.

You rarely have the opportunity to control one piece of property thats large enough to do something like what were talking about in modern times.

Its no accident that many of the larger single projects in the nation are in suburbs of major cities, such as Norman.

Thats where the land is. Thats where the growth is, Stearns said.

Developments may be unified such as University North Park or segmented such as the Quail Springs area, but some things remain the same.

(Retailers) all want to cluster together at the same location. As you go across the country, you will notice that the retailers have all selected the same areas. Thats not by accident. They are following the anchors, he said. The big anchors provide the foot traffic. They provide the advertising for the area. They just have a lot larger budgets to deal with all that. What you have in Norman is a unique ability to get them all in one location instead of scattered all on one street.

At the Super Target at Penn and Memorial, P.F. Changs China Bistro built on a nearby outparcel. TGI Fridays, On the Border, Applewoods and

Olive Garden built on outparcels at Quail Springs Mall. Across Kilpatrick Turnpike, Texas Roadhouse and Starbucks have gone in near Old Navy,

Michaels and Lowes. Just west on Memorial are Johnny Carinos, Fox and Hound and Abuelos Gourmet Mexican restaurants.

But with the boom in the area have come complex problems, being addressed by the City of Oklahoma City.

The unrelated developments along the Memorial corridor have created numerous traffic issues, with intense traffic snarls along Penn Avenue on either side of Kilpatrick Turnpike and Memorial Road and along the north side of Memorial Road, making it difficult to exit the turnpike at Penn.

TIF districts apparently are being used around the state to increase sales tax base, not just to address blighted areas. The use of TIF districts as development tools began when the Oklahoma Legislature passed the Local Development Act in 1992, amended by voters in 2004 to allow cities to dedicate future TIF revenues for retirement of bond issues to finance improvements.

Tulsa Mayor Bill LaFortune recently announced his support of a TIF district that would help prepare a site for a 695,000-square-foot center at 71st Street and U.S. 75, according to a recent Associated Press story. The property also would be developed by Sooner Investments and Collett and Associates of Charlotte, N.C.

Theyve offered it up and said please make this happen. Because they realize they are going to lose all these retailers to the outskirts of town which makes it in some other municipality than Tulsa, Stearns said.

The area needs about 2 million cubic yards of earthwork for it to be developable.

Thats a huge number. Thats probably a $10 million number in itself. These kind of developments cant pay for that, so it just wouldnt occur on that land. It would occur somewhere else. But the city wants it to occur on that land, he said.

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## Pete

By the way, the land for this project is owned by the OU Foundation, the nonprofit arm of the university that manages donations and handles investments for the endowment, which is now over $600 million.

I'm sure this development will through off a huge amount of income which will be a fantastic long-term revenue stream for the university.


That Boren is one amazing guy.

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## BG918

I'm still waiting to see a master plan and renderings of the completed project.  It "sounds" like they are wanting something upscale and even New Urbanist in design but you never know.  I just hope they go for a more "Utica Square" type development (singular stores/restaurants with storefront parking and plenty of trees around it) instead of a "Moore strip mall" type (large, ugly facades of stores with a gigantic sea of parking).  The fact that they have said it is a mixed-use development with adjacent offices and residential is promising.

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## Pete

I've only seen a fuzzy rendering, and I've search the sites of the two architecture firms.

However, the fact OU is involved and Boren has been quoted as wanting an upscale development are good signs.

Everything OU has built under Boren has been pretty nice.

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## Pete

Here's another good article:

*Boren pitches University Park TIF*
_
Boren shared his ideas for an intimate yet dynamic retail space in the image of Tulsas Utica Square._

By Carol Cole 
CNHI News Service 

NORMAN, Okla.  A vision of an upscale destination retail center at the 585-acre University North Park was painted Tuesday by University of Oklahoma President David Boren as he made his pitch to the Norman City Council and a standing room-only crowd.

Boren shared his ideas for an intimate yet dynamic retail space *in the image of Tulsas Utica Square*, urging councilmembers to form a review committee to study implementing a tax increment financing or TIF District to provide about $20 million in infrastructure in the 585 acres of land north of Robinson Street and east of Interstate 35.

At this point, this is interesting enough and exciting enough that I think we ought to work at it hard, kick the tires, look under the hood. I do think enough effort has gone into it at this spot that its worth proceeding to at least look at this. And not prejudging it, Boren said. I think not to go forward would be a mistake.

The TIF public improvements would include about $13.5 million in off-site costs to address traffic problems, plus $7 million in off-site drainage. 

The area has never generated tax revenues. The TIF is proposed to split future tax revenues to finance the improvements.

*The first phase would be a 280-acre Planned Unit Development or PUD, with the center portion in a Main Street/University Commons type style. A clock tower would anchor the center, with fountains, statues and lush landscaping creating pedestrian-friendly spaces around small boutique-type stores.

A serpentine drive would wind through the middle of the development.*

Were looking at the clock tower for a vertical element, said Randy Stone, group manager for Carter-Burgess Architecture, saying it would be the destination point in the development and be visible from the interstate. 

*Gateway arches similar to those at OU and other university-like elements would welcome visitors to the area*, Boren said. 

Something that has a beauty to it, he said, saying that improving the area helps the university as well.

*Upscale hotels would be located near the interstate, with an entertainment center with movie theaters and other venues would be at the back of the development.* 

Boren said the TIF District would not kick in until the citys sales tax base had grown another 4 percent. 

If an existing store moved to the area, it would have to contribute at least as many taxes before the TIF would kick in, to protect the city against cannibalization of its tax base. 

The land is owned by the University of Oklahoma Foundation, which is contemplating a sale to Sooner Investments. 

Covenants would be developed for the design of the area, and an architectural design committee would oversee the area.

He would help oversee the project. 

I would rather you know you are dealing with a pretty unreasonable person, Boren said he told potential investors.

I will be watching this like all the rest of you  like a hawk. To count trees and things like that, he said to councilmembers. 

Boren said he believes it is inevitable that a quality retail center will spring up in the area, whether it be in Moore, Norman or another spot in central Oklahoma. 

He believes it will produce about $100 million in taxes in the 25 years after the TIF District has done its work.

Councilmembers expressed concern at the end of the presentation because of the time that would be required for the development, it would continue to be overseen in the same way after Borens tenure was up. 

I think another thing for the community is the protection of the covenants, said City Manager Brad Gambill.

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## BFizzy

I keep hearing and reading more about this project, but I still have not seen any renderings for it.  Boren says that it will be upscale like Utica Square, but that seems a little off since it is anchored by SupterTarget.  I am excited about this project but am having a hard time visualizing this and would love to see a rendering. 

Does anyone know where I might be able to come across one?

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## BricktownGuy

With all the media hype that UNP has created, I hope it delivers.  

Since it is being developed by the University of Oklahoma Foundation, R.T. Oliver Investments and Sooner Investment Co. it *should* be able to support all the hype.  

Since this development is suppose to include retail, offices, restaurants, and residential, will this area attract more attention than Bricktown once its all completed???  (just a thought that came to mind)

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## ETL

So, do we still not know what it is going to look like.

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## soonerliberal

The plans have not been developed yet... just the "vision"...

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## Patrick

From what I was told last week, look to see something like you see at Memorial and Penn.

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## Popsy

Patrick

Reading your posts over the last several months I have developed the impression that you are the most negative poster here. Is that required in the job description of moderator or is there just very little that pleases you?

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## brianinok

> .....in the image of Tulsas Utica Square, urging councilmembers to form a review committee to study implementing a tax increment financing or TIF District to provide about $20 million in infrastructure in the 585 acres of land north of Robinson Street and east of Interstate 35.
> 
> At this point, this is interesting enough and exciting enough that I think we ought to work at it hard, kick the tires, look under the hood. I do think enough effort has gone into it at this spot that its worth proceeding to at least look at this. And not prejudging it, Boren said. I think not to go forward would be a mistake.
> 
> The TIF public improvements would include about $13.5 million in off-site costs to address traffic problems, plus $7 million in off-site drainage. 
> 
> The area has never generated tax revenues. The TIF is proposed to split future tax revenues to finance the improvements.
> 
> The first phase would be a 280-acre Planned Unit Development or PUD, with the center portion in a Main Street/University Commons type style. A clock tower would anchor the center, with fountains, statues and lush landscaping creating pedestrian-friendly spaces around small boutique-type stores.
> ...


Patrick, this sounds nothing like Penn & Memorial to me.

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## venture

David Boren isn't going to permit another strip style shopping center. Lifestyle centers are anything but that. However, I wonder if personal feelings are getting in the way of actual fact reporting. Popsy - you aren't the only one.  :Smile:

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## ETL

> David Boren isn't going to permit another strip style shopping center. Lifestyle centers are anything but that. However, I wonder if personal feelings are getting in the way of actual fact reporting. Popsy - you aren't the only one.


What do you mean "feelins"? The feelings of who?

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## Patrick

> Patrick
> 
> Reading your posts over the last several months I have developed the impression that you are the most negative poster here. Is that required in the job description of moderator or is there just very little that pleases you?


I know the facts from the city of Norman, and they're nothing like the pompus reports presented here. 

Remember, I was also called a negative poster when I cried foul on upscale stores like Saks, Williams Sonoma, etc. coming to Spring Creek Village. Ends up I was 100% correct.

I'm positive about real events, but I just get tired of people making false promises.

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## Midtowner

Developers will often make pie-in-the-sky promises in order to secure public funds or public support.  That is not at all unlike what is happening with this development.  

The TIF financing received here will really hurt Norman schools.  TIF financing, if you recall locks the property tax rate of the subject property at its *pre-development* price.  The owners continue to pay the full assessed proprety tax, however, any money above the earlier locked-in value goes to pay off the TIF bond instead of to the schools.

Add to that the fact that so many other commercial centers in Norman will suffer because of this development, and you have problems.  This may be slightly offset by the fact that there will be subsequent development in the immediate area trying to piggyback on University Park's success; however, all of such development will also be counterbalanced by its own effect on older developments.

In the end, the schools will miss out on a lot of revenue that they otherwise would have had.  A big part of these developments will be paid out of the pocket books of local schools.  Not healthy in the least in my opinion.  It certainly isn't what the public was sold when TIF went to a vote of the people.

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## ETL

Am I mistaken or is the fact if the UNP is not built the schools will be just as well off if the UNP is built. What I mean is that the UNP will have no effect on the schools. Am I wrong? Also, what was the affect of the MOA in Minnesota on the surrounding local business?

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## Midtowner

ETL:  The land is in a prime spot for development.  Your argument assumes that if UNP is not built with TIF money,  that nothing at all will be built, and the property values will not increase.  

If the land sits there vacant, the property value will increase, so I don't think your argument works.

Also, while there might be an appreciation in land immediately surrounding the area, it can also be said that competition in the UNP area will have an impact in property values throughout the Norman metro area (namely, it will drive customers away, and subsequently harm those property values).  

So yes, in my most humble opinion, you are wrong  :Smile:

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## ETL

You are right, I mad an ignorant argument. =) But, do you think Norman would be better off without the UNP?

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## Midtowner

Norman would be best served having a top-notch development which did not steal money from the schools in order to be built.

I do think that public services in Norman will be made to suffer because of this unless there is a _significant_ bump in sales tax revenue.  

Even then, the sales tax revenue does not go to school, property taxes do.  In any event, Norman public schools will be paying from their budget (in the form of money not received) to enhance a *private* development.

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## ETL

Why is it not PRIVATELY funded. Why is this being allowed?

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## Midtowner

Because the voters in their wisdom on Nov. 2nd, 2004 voted for an amendment of Oklahoma Constitution Article X 6-c in 2004 allowing it.

A case that discusses it at length is Harvey vs. OCURA discusses the constitutionality of a similar project (although, I will say that the Skirvin which is discussed therein is a much more meritorious project, but that's my subjective analysis):
http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...?CiteID=441791

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## Popsy

Midtowner

It was my understanding that since the property was owned by the University Foundation there were no property taxes currently being paid, thus the school district loses nothing in that respect.  Additionally, if nothing happens with the property for the next twenty five years and no taxes are being paid even though the land appreciates, did the school district lose anything?  It was also my understanding that the property tax monies would somehow be shared with the school district during the life of the TIF.  It was my further understanding that the TIF would not kick into effect until the Norman tax base increased by four percent. Also, if monies from the project go to the benefit of the University Foundation, which eventually flows to OU, then is Oklahoma education somehow benefiting from that?  Now, did I misunderstand or are you the one that needs to get the facts straight?

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## Midtowner

> Midtowner
> 
> It was my understanding that since the property was owned by the University Foundation there were no property taxes currently being paid, thus the school district loses nothing in that respect.  Additionally, if nothing happens with the property for the next twenty five years and no taxes are being paid even though the land appreciates, did the school district lose anything?


Interesting argument -- in this case, how does TIF even work??  If the University doesn't pay taxes on the land that it owns (and the Foundation, a distinct entity from Oklahoma University very well may unless it enjoys some sort of property tax exemption which I'm not familiar with).

A TIF bond is paid by the property tax in excess of the original value which would normally go to the school district.  If you're talking about the entity not even having to pay taxes, or something to that effect, then where does the TIF payback money come from at all?

Who is going to underwrite a bond like that?




> It was also my understanding that the property tax monies would somehow be shared with the school district during the life of the TIF.


Correct.  With TIF, the pre-project property value is locked in, and the district continues to receive that money.  Thus, if a $10,000/acre property appreciates to a $250,000/acre property, the school district only receives the property tax which would have been due on the former value.




> It was my further understanding that the TIF would not kick into effect until the Norman tax base increased by four percent.


That may very well be true, however, that doesn't account for the fact that 1) this is a desirable location; 2) someone eventually would have built a substantial project there, almost definitely within the next quarter-century; and 3) the school district is now losing 100% of the prospective revenue from such a project.




> Also, if monies from the project go to the benefit of the University Foundation, which eventually flows to OU, then is Oklahoma education somehow benefiting from that?


Sure, but I'm not talking about the Oklahoma Higher Ed system losing money.  Clearly, they win here.  The Norman Public School system, however, loses.  You are essentially arguing that this is okay because we're robbing Peter to pay Paul.  Seldom is this the case with TIF though.  Typically, the money goes out of the school district's pocket and into that of a private developer.  This may be _slightly_ more palatable because the money is shifting from one public education entity to another, but your apparent argument that it's a 'wash' or something to that effect isn't very convincing.




> Now, did I misunderstand or are you the one that needs to get the facts straight?


I think I'm fairly well-informed.  Perhaps you could educate us as to the tax liability that the Foundation previously had regarding the property, and how a TIF bond can be paid when there are no property taxes to support the payback in the first place.  I may be completely missing the point and/or misunderstanding the tax liability of the Foundation, but I seem to read that it has none in the current arrangement.

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## Patrick

I really hope the developers of this property prove me wrong and make something classy out of this development.  Don't get me wrong, I want to see a first class project here.  It's just from what I've seen, I think comparing  this project to Utica Square is going way overboard.

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## BFizzy

This project plan seems to include a real "lifestyle center":

http://www.okctalk.com/gallery/showg...00/ppuser/1789

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## BricktownGuy

the previous posts' link points to a page that states:

"*This category does not contain any images."*

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## BFizzy

It was the plans for the southern half of the University Town Center, but I guess I can't post pictures.

I'll try to find another site to host the picture and then send the link.

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## BFizzy

Okay, let's try again...

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...foster/UTC.jpg

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## traxx

I hope it ends up cool and a lifestyle center would be great, but already I see too much frickin' parking.  It just looks like a sea of parking spaces and I had such high hopes for this place.  

Developers in Oklahoma gotta get out of this mind set that we need tons of surface parking.  Enought with the Wal-Mart site design mentality of setting your store way back from the street with an ocean of parking and selling of the that space to strip malls that house tanning and nail places.  

We need smart design not status quo.  Anyway, I hope they prove me wrong.

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## venture

I think people need to realize, just like the map shows, the actual Lifestyle Center portion hasn't even been touched yet. So yes...there will be a lot of parking visible right now, but this is a massive project.

Also looks like 5 hotel-like options in the project. I am guessing some of these will be much small B&B type operations, versus the full scale hotel. 

The layout of the lifestyle center is very much like Levis Commons that I linked too before...just a bit smaller.

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## ETL

Is this plan final?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...foster/UTC.jpg

This plan would be the death to the classy shopping I had hoped for. This plan needs some serious work!

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## Luke

PIc didn't work for me.

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## BricktownGuy

does not work for me either.

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## ETL

Try this... http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...foster/UTC.jpg

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## Nuclear_2525

hmmm...i hope thats not really the plan.  It doesn't seem lik that could be 1.4 million sq ft of retail unless those buildings are multi-story.  

The plan just looks like another typical strip-type development with seas of parking, but maybe a little nicer.

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## soonerliberal

The problem I see with that proposal is the lack of pedestrian walkways apparent from the picture.  It appears as if you would be required to walk through a sea of parking to get from the Embassy Suites to the "Lifestyle center" and then another sea to the restaurant triangle, or that is what I assume it would be.

The design looks okay, but not really what they have made it seem like.  Does anybody know if this is an official proposal?

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## BricktownGuy

I do not believe anything officially has been released to the public.

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## ETL

I was told by someone high up in this project that Sooner Mall was going to close after this completion. I did not get to talk to him much, but I will ask him some questions when I get a chance. I need to ask him why it looks like an ordinary strip mall. Also, he told me that the Warren Theater was moving to another location in Moore. He said across the street, but I cant picture where. In its place, there may be store like Bass Pro. I think it started with a c or a t. I cant remember.

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## Easy180

Might be Cabela's out of Nebraska

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## ETL

Yes, that is it. What are they like?

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## Nuclear_2525

You have to be joking...why would they put a Cabela's there?  In a town with really nothing special about it.  I can see a Cabela's in Edmond or Norman, but not Moore

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## ETL

All I can say is that is what he said. If it happen, then we will know.

By the way, what are they like?

----------


## mranderson

> All I can say is that is what he said. If it happen, then we will know.
> 
> By the way, what are they like?


They are a competitor to Bass Pro. In fact, after I saw one of their stores, I thought we should have told Bass to either take it or leave it and go for Cabela's.

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## soonerliberal

a) Sooner Mall is not closing.
b) The theatre is not going to move.  They have spent 2 million on the current location.
c) Cabelas... hmmmmm possible

----------


## Easy180

classy post nuclear....coming off just a little snobbish...the state and the universe for that matter don't revolve around Edmond and Norman

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## Nuclear_2525

Remove yourself from the fact that you have some kind of attachment to Moore, and look at it from a business stand point.  The only thing Moore really has going for it right now, is I-35, the rest of the development, besides the Warren Theater, is cheach sprawling development.

I am not trying say that the Universe revolves around either Norman or Edmond, but with the types of developments, UNP in Norman, and the Huge shopping center/mall/hotel in Edmond, both of these being more of a regional draw than a new Kohl's and chineses buffet, it just makes more sense to put a Cabela's in one of these locations.

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## Easy180

So the huge development in Norman would be all of 5 minutes away from the rumored Moore site...Much too far for people to drive...Could it also be that Moore is proposing a better incentive package to Cabela than Norman and Edmond are?

And looking at it from a business standpoint I-35 is a major factor and if that is all Moore has going for it then it may just be enough to land Cabela's...Also it may draw a large part of the south side OKC'ers if it was just as close as going to Bass Pro

----------


## Nuclear_2525

I do understand your point, yes Moore could be offering a better incentive package.  If that is the case, then I agree, it should be in Moore. 

My original intent was not to attack Moore.  All the cities of the Metro have to work together for the good of each other.  However, I was just making the statement, that from business standpoint, outside of incentives, placing the Cabela's around one of the two huge developments just makes more sense.  And I hope that you can agree with me on that.  

Although, maybe this will be a good thing in Moore.  If a Cabela's does go in Moore, then maybe Moore could find a really good developer to come in and create an area like what BA is doing with their Bass Pro.

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## Easy180

Probably read too much into your Moore statement so all is good...Don't know why I got wound up anyway as I doubt I would ever even go in a Cabela's...But it would be good for my property value for sure

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## traxx

I doubt a Cabella's in Moore.  Not saying it can't happen, just saying I doubt it.  It would be too close to Bass Pro.  They would canabalize off of each other and neither would win.  It would need to be further away.  

I've been to the Cabella's in KC and liked it better than Bass Pro.  They had a restaurant inside with home cooking and good prices as well.

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## mranderson

> I do understand your point, yes Moore could be offering a better incentive package. If that is the case, then I agree, it should be in Moore. 
> 
> My original intent was not to attack Moore. All the cities of the Metro have to work together for the good of each other. However, I was just making the statement, that from business standpoint, outside of incentives, placing the Cabela's around one of the two huge developments just makes more sense. And I hope that you can agree with me on that. 
> 
> Although, maybe this will be a good thing in Moore. If a Cabela's does go in Moore, then maybe Moore could find a really good developer to come in and create an area like what BA is doing with their Bass Pro.


They already have one. The guy who developed Riverwalk.

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## Easy180

so traxx...Is that kind of like Home Depot and Lowe's building their stores across the street from each other in Moore...I doubt very seriously that a Bricktown Bass Pro would squash a deal for them if the numbers look right

That would mean they would just concede all the major cities Bass Pro is already in

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## ETL

> They already have one. The guy who developed Riverwalk.


Please explain. Sorry.

----------


## traxx

> so traxx...Is that kind of like Home Depot and Lowe's building their stores across the street from each other in Moore...I doubt very seriously that a Bricktown Bass Pro would squash a deal for them if the numbers look right
> 
> That would mean they would just concede all the major cities Bass Pro is already in


Not really.  Lowe's and Home Depot aren't quite the same magnitude as these outdoor superstores.  You'll find several Lowe's and Home Depot stores in cities because they are merely big box stores, but with Bass Pro and Cabella's the store is the attraction or draw.  If Bass Pro were located say at Memorial and Penn then there'd be enough space in between to have one in South OKC/Moore, but with Bass Pro being in the center of the city it makes it more unlikely however as you'll remember from my previous post I said it's not impossible just that I doubted it.  

Who knows, maybe I'll be proven wrong.  But then again the numbers have looked right to other stores that have moved in and found their numbers wrong.  Taco Cabana comes immediately to mind.  I suppose their numbers showed that OKC metro could support all those sites but now you see many closed or turned into something else.

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## jbrown84

I can see us getting an REI or Dick's Sporting Goods because they are very different, whereas Cabela's is basically exactly like Bass Pro--hunting, fishing, and other "hick" sports.  Dick's is more general sports like a giant Academy, and REI is adventure sports like skiing, climbing, camping, backpacking...

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## okyboy

This is what I know about University North Park:

Target will officially open 10/3/2006.  Throughout the center proposed tenants include TJ Maxx, Circuit City, Office Depot, Petco, Kirklands, Dress Barn, Maurices, Rack Room Shoes.  PF Changs as well as Pei Wei are heavily considered as possible tenants.  Chipolte will be located on an outparcel.  Starbucks will be a build-to-suit in Area 1B.  JC Penney will be located in  Area 2A, while Kohl's will be located in Area 2B.  John Q hammons will build Embassy Suites in Area 4 along with a large convention center.

Home Depot is in negotation to take Area 3A, which means the present location on I-35 will be vacated.

Other possible tenants include: high end eateries, Hal Smith type restaurants, Whole Foods, Costco, and The Container Store.

A theatre is planned for the Lifestyle Center however it is to be small and offer dining during the movie.

Sooner Mall is not intending to close and from what it appears Dillards will absorb the vacated JC Penney store, much like Dillards did at Penn Square.

From my understanding, the large theatre planned for Moore is stil underway; however additional investors are being sought before additional financing can be provided.

Unfortunately, University North Park offers the same ol' stuff that is being located at very shopping center in OKC.  There is still some available retail bays and restaurant sites that the developer can utilize that will make this development stand out from the rest.

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## ETL

This project needs a tenent like Dave & Busters or Game Works. Also, it needs an entertainment facility like http://www.maineventusa.net/. Think outside the box!

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## Luke

If this is going to be what you say, okyboy, then I don't understand why David Boren was comparing this to Utica Square.

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## ETL

I concur.

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## okyboy

I believe David Boren's comment regarding Utica Square maybe in direct comparison to the Lifestyle Center itself.  The Lifestyle Center will resemble a boulevard with shops and eateries, antique street lighting, professional landscaping, etc.  Some high end shops are expected to fulfill this space.  Since the Lifestyle Center will be one of the last phases of the 5-year development, tenants will slowly evolve.
Utica Square currently occupies retailers such as Restoration Station, Coach, Williams-Sonoma, Saks 5th Avenue, Harolds, Flirt, and Banana Republic.  PF Changs, Flemings, Starbucks, and some smaller eateries are also located in Utica Square.  

Overall I would see the Lifestyle Center resembling Utica Square.  However the entire University North Park development will be large and will entertain many retailers and restaurants.

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## Luke

OK, that makes more sense.  Just the lifestyle center resembling Utica Square sounds more realistic.

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## traxx

Crap!  Another opportunity blown.  This is just the same kind of stuff as what's on Ed Noble Pkwy.  We need different stores and ideas.  Some upscale stores.  But instead they're just putting in more big box stores and "trendy" restaurants.  PF Changs is going to oversaturate the market like Taco Cabana did and I'm about as impressed with Changs as I was with Cabana.  Hopefully things will change before the rest of it gets built, it's not too late to make it better.

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## BricktownGuy

Looks like a Kohl's is part of this project too.

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## MikeLucky

> PF Changs is going to oversaturate the market like Taco Cabana did and I'm about as impressed with Changs as I was with Cabana.


Wha.....  PF Changs has one location in OKC and two Pei Wei locations.  Calling the addition of a Norman location is oversaturation is quite a stretch.

And comparing PF Changs to Taco Cabana is like comparing Western Sizzlin' to Saltgrass Steakhouse......  Norman needs a PF Changs or at least a Pei Wei.

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## Spartan

Wow I can't believe someone just compared PF Changs to Taco Cabana.

I must need my reading glasses...

----------


## BG918

I remember reading in the Tulsa World when the Brookside Pei Wei was announced that they were looking at locations in Norman.  I haven't heard anything since.  I think somewhere like downtown would be better for Pei Wei, it doesn't really fit the pad site restaurant stereotype and downtown could use more restaurants.  A Pei Wei alone would bring more people down there.

----------


## traxx

> Wha.....  PF Changs has one location in OKC and two Pei Wei locations.  Calling the addition of a Norman location is oversaturation is quite a stretch.
> 
> And comparing PF Changs to Taco Cabana is like comparing Western Sizzlin' to Saltgrass Steakhouse......  Norman needs a PF Changs or at least a Pei Wei.


I wasn't comparing PF Changs to Taco Cabana as far as food is concerned, idiot.  I was comparing it as far as market saturation is concerned.  I was under the impression that Changs was supposed to be something special and different, but if they start putting one in every little shopping center like they did with Cabana, then they'll oversaturate the market and it'll lose it's cache.  Putting one in at University Northpark makes it appear that it could go the same way as Cabana.  However, if they stop after putting in this Changs, then I'll stand corrected.  But I just don't see them stopping anytime soon.

I've eaten at Changs and was unimpressed as I was the first time I ate at Cabana.  I've never eaten at Pei Wei, but from what I've been told it's got better food.

----------


## MikeLucky

> I wasn't comparing PF Changs to Taco Cabana as far as food is concerned, idiot.  I was comparing it as far as market saturation is concerned.  I was under the impression that Changs was supposed to be something special and different, but if they start putting one in every little shopping center like they did with Cabana, then they'll oversaturate the market and it'll lose it's cache.  Putting one in at University Northpark makes it appear that it could go the same way as Cabana.  However, if they stop after putting in this Changs, then I'll stand corrected.  But I just don't see them stopping anytime soon.
> 
> I've eaten at Changs and was unimpressed as I was the first time I ate at Cabana.  I've never eaten at Pei Wei, but from what I've been told it's got better food.


oh, so now I am an idiot?

Since I wasn't the only one to do a double take on your "comparison" then I will assume you meant to call anyone else who took your post that way an idiot as well....

right now there is 1 Changs and 2 Pei Wei locations in Edmond/North OKC.  Even if they do put both a Changs and a Pei Wei in Norman, that certainly is a FAR stretch from oversaturation.  Do you know about any other plans for a Changs or Pei Wei in the metro that would cause any alarm for possible "oversaturation?"  This idiot would certainly like to be enlightened.....

----------


## poe

I agree.  Oversaturation is becoming synonymous with Chili's and the like.  As big as the Oklahoma City area is, I think there's enough of a fanbase to support two full-service PF Chang's restaurants.

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## traxx

I don't think that I ever said that Changs is already oversaturating the market, I just said if they continue the trend of putting them in all the shopping centers and strip malls then they will oversaturate the market.  

When it was announced that Changs was coming to OKC everyone was hyped about it because it was a restaurant that big cities had and it had a good reputation and we would finally be getting one of our own.  But if they start putting in several, then it's just a strip mall chain restaurant and not anything special.  

I've eaten at Changs and all the people I've talked to that have eaten there have said that it was okay, not great, especially for the price.  If more and more people feel this way and people stop going there, then two Changs would be oversaturation because the population wouldn't support just one very much.  So oversaturation doesn't mean that you have to have 100 locations within a 25 mile radius.

I'm not saying that nobody likes Changs, I'm just using that as an example of what constitutes oversaturation.

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## venture

I think oversaturation when it comes to comparing locations....OKC/Memorial to Norman...it is nonexistant. There are few people that will continue to drive over an hour to the north side from Norman to eat and what not. I use to do it a lot, but I find myself more and more staying in Norman. I rarely even go to Bricktown anymore and that use to be a weekly thing. 

Once UNP reaches its full potential in a couple years, it will definitely cut off a lot of the traffic going up I-35. Of course, Norman is also over 100,000 people (3rd largest in the state) so it can sustain itself pretty well as is. The extra 20,000 or so transplants with mom and dad's money at OU don't hurt either.

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## allure

Who, besides rich college kids with their daddies credit cards, are going to be able to afford all of these 'upscale' stores?!  I really don't know where you people get off thinking Norman is going to produce a Utica square.  Why would you put a Williams Sonoma in podunk Norman?!...you wouldn't!  It's not realistic and these companies realize that.  Better get used to the Wranglers from Wal-Mart and your Ed Noble Parkway type stores....they define Norman & Oklahoma in general, so shut up and embrace it.

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## MrZ

Somebody has some issues...  **cough*allure*cough**

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## Easy180

> Who, besides rich college kids with their daddies credit cards, are going to be able to afford all of these 'upscale' stores?!  I really don't know where you people get off thinking Norman is going to produce a Utica square.  Why would you put a Williams Sonoma in podunk Norman?!...you wouldn't!  It's not realistic and these companies realize that.  Better get used to the Wranglers from Wal-Mart and your Ed Noble Parkway type stores....they define Norman & Oklahoma in general, so shut up and embrace it.


Yeah...There aren't any wealthy people in the south metro and Norman area...Welcome to the forum  :Tiphat:

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## traxx

> Who, besides rich college kids with their daddies credit cards, are going to be able to afford all of these 'upscale' stores?!  I really don't know where you people get off thinking Norman is going to produce a Utica square.  Why would you put a Williams Sonoma in podunk Norman?!...you wouldn't!  It's not realistic and these companies realize that.  Better get used to the Wranglers from Wal-Mart and your Ed Noble Parkway type stores....they define Norman & Oklahoma in general, so shut up and embrace it.


Let me guess; you're daddy's not rich, never gave you his credit card, probably doesn't have one and you shop at Target because it's so much more posh than Wal Mart.

Don't be fooled, there's money in Norman/Moore/S. OKC.  Plus, these type of shopping areas are often set in a suburb not in the middle of a large metro and the establishments bring in people from all around not just from the town in which they are built.  Eg. Gainsville, Texas.  There's not much there but people from the surrounding areas in Texas as well as Southern Oklahoma travel to shop the outlets.

But, I don't even know why I'm responding to you, because you won't be back to listen, and I can tell by your post count that you're obviously a troll with self esteem issues. :Boxing2:

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## allure

Traxx,

You guessed wrong.  Sorry.

My Daddy is rich, very wealthy in fact, and the use of his credit card is never denied.  And for the record, I shop anywhere and everywhere, including Target AND Wal-mart...because I can.  (That's really none of your business though, as I was referring to the 'daddies credit card' kids as a whole and never mentioned anything about myself).   

On the other hand, my original response was in regards to what you posted about Norman missing out on "upscale stores" and being dealt the same old "big box stores".  How many people do you know that live in Norman shop at Saks Fifth Avenue on a regular basis?  Are you going to go out and buy your wife/girlfriend a purse from Coach when they open here in Norman?  The point I was trying to make is that they wouldnt put those type of upscale stores in Norman, so Norman shouldnt hold its breath for a Utica Square.   And the only thing that would even make them think twice about it, would be because of the University and the huge market of rich students who would keep it afloat, and thats it. 

However, comparing the Gainesville Factory Outlets and Utica Square is an entirely different thing, just as your comparison of P.F. Changs and Taco Cabana was.they arent even in the same league.  I do think Norman would do really well if they had Big Box stores and thats why I said to embrace it.  Sure, Norman may have some money, but not enough to put luxury shopping at its fingertips without a fight.  

Also, P.F. Changs and Pei Wei are owned by the same company and have almost an identical menu, so No, it does not have better food, its just designed to be a more casual and less expensive version of Changs.  

And Traxx, my post count is low because I am a new member, not a troll.
 :Fighting32:

----------


## Easy180

> Traxx,
> 
> 
> On the other hand, my original response was in regards to what you posted about Norman missing out on "upscale stores" and being dealt the same old "big box stores".  How many people do you know that live in Norman shop at Saks Fifth Avenue on a regular basis?  Are you going to go out and buy your wife/girlfriend a purse from Coach when they open here in Norman?  The point I was trying to make is that they wouldnt put those type of upscale stores in Norman, so Norman shouldnt hold its breath for a Utica Square.   And the only thing that would even make them think twice about it, would be because of the University and the huge market of rich students who would keep it afloat, and thats it.


That's a little nicer explanation of why you don't think Norman can support "Utica Square"...I disagree as I lived in Tulsa and people came from all parts of the city and the surrounding 'burbs' to shop there

W/o googling the income comparisons I would think OKC matches up well with Tulsa...Don't you think shoppers (mainly women) will come from all around the metro to support Saks, Nordstroms etc?...You can argue that Norman itself can't sustain these stores, but that is ignoring the fact that the bulk of their customers will come from OKC, Moore, Mustang, Yukon, Edmond and other nearby cities

Hell just the ladies in Nichols Hills might be sufficient to make these upscale stores successful   :Kicking:

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## Luke

I smell another candidate for the "ignore" feature of the board.

 :Wink:

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## allure

> I smell another candidate for the "ignore" feature of the board.


Likewise.  Do you have anything to say about the actual topic?

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## Spartan

> I smell another candidate for the "ignore" feature of the board.


Yes. I won't put up with this fellow...he's not even fun to make an idiot out of, like Giggles is.

----------


## soonerliberal

So in unrelated news, I just heard Chick-Fil-A was taking over the Krispy Kreme that closed in Norman.

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## OUman

^Funny you mention that, it's in this morning's Oklahoman that Krispy Kreme is in a bad spot, sales have plummeted by 18% each year the last two years.

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## Midtowner

> ^Funny you mention that, it's in this morning's Oklahoman that Krispy Kreme is in a bad spot, sales have plummeted by 18% each year the last two years.


It did enjoy an interesting honeymoon period in which people lined up at the front door.  

Obviously, they shouldn't have expected that to continue.  

I'd assume that KK stores here in OKC would fall within the national average in terms of business and profitability.  

If they built out in response to the initial glut of business and find themselves to be overextended, we might be able to rightfully accuse them of being overoptimistic in that OKC would outperform any market they had previously occupied.

----------


## traxx

> How many people do you know that live in Norman shop at Saks Fifth Avenue on a regular basis?


Not many.  Because there's not one in the area.

Okay, so I was wrong, you're a rich, spoiled, brat.  Yeah I know, now you're gonna come back and say how you had to work hard and fight for everything you have.  

But you do have issues.  You're very first post is to tell us that Norman is a podunk town and insinuating that all we can afford is Wal Mart stuff because we're so poor and podunk except for the college students that come here.  Sound like a troll to me.

BTW, if they don't plan on doing something different with University North Park, then why do it at all.  We already have a ton of big box stores on Ed Noble Pkwy.  So, they're gonna have two Petsmarts two miles from each other?

As for us all being poor podunks in Norman who can barely afford Wranglers at Wal Mart, I think a Mr. Keith and a Mr. Stoops and the crowd they run with would have to disagree with that.

----------


## allure

Yes, you’re right, the closest Saks is in Tulsa, but if they were going to put one in the area, they would put it in OKC/Nichols Hills, not Norman.  All of Saks Fifth Avenue locations are in extremely wealthy areas, and they don’t just put them anywhere either. 
If you want to argue more about it, I really suggest you visit their website so you can compare their other locations with Norman…Boca Raton, Beverly Hills, Palos Verdes…I’m not being mean, it’s just realistic.  

Also, there are a ton of big box stores that haven’t been introduced to Norman and I already said I thought those would do really well.  
And just because it’s not as upscale as you hoped for, doesn’t mean it’s going to be the same as Ed Noble.

As for the Petsmarts, I don’t know, maybe there is a big pet population.  Haha.

----------


## OUman

^True, but then again, Norman's far from being a poor town. People here spend tons of money on upscale goods. And I doubt there will be another Petsmart in Norman, especially in UNP.

And actually, if you say it's the college students who squander money, you need to go out there and check it out, most college students can't afford pricey goods (electronics and football stuff aside-and yes, they'll squander it there) since whatever they get goes to books and other college-related expenses. Even paying for a month's food supply eats quite a bit into the budget. I graduated college this May, so I definitely know what I'm talking about.

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## aintaokie

Taking "Gainesville" off the Factory Outlet would greatly improve the image of this "retail" outlet.  Gainesville is a Walmart/Tractor Supply kind of town full of Podunks and gang bangers.  Norman/Moore/South OKC on the other hand, can support a upscale shopping center.  Norman, has a lot more upscale citizens than most towns (Drive around the town and see the beautiful neighborhoods and large homes).  Also a lot of the horse rancher folks ($$$)from out in the sticks will come to North Park and shop at the "upscale stores".

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## Spartan

allure  
This message is hidden because allure is on your ignore list.

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## Midtowner

> Taking "Gainesville" off the Factory Outlet would greatly improve the image of this "retail" outlet.  Gainesville is a Walmart/Tractor Supply kind of town full of Podunks and gang bangers.  Norman/Moore/South OKC on the other hand, can support a upscale shopping center.  Norman, has a lot more upscale citizens than most towns (Drive around the town and see the beautiful neighborhoods and large homes).  Also a lot of the horse rancher folks ($$$)from out in the sticks will come to North Park and shop at the "upscale stores".


Don't forget the wealthy influx of Sooner fans who come out for weekends at Norman several times each year.  Football games could be absolutely huge for an upscale retail store which offers something these fans can't find at home.

----------


## traxx

> If you want to argue more about it, I really suggest you visit their website so you can compare their other locations with NormanBoca Raton, Beverly Hills, Palos VerdesIm not being mean, its just realistic.


Not trying to argue, but it seems you want to.  I was just answering your question.  You asked how many people I knew in Norman shopped at Saks on a regular basis.  Your meaning being that everyone in Norman is too poor to shop at Saks.  I was just saying that's not the case, people in Norman don't shop at Saks regularly because there's not one around.  

That's like insinuating that people in Norman are too poor to afford a meal at Senor Frog's and that's why they don't eat there regularly.  However, since there's not one within a 1000 miles of Norman that might have something to do with why Norman citizens aren't regular customers there.

----------


## BG918

^ You can find most of the same items you can find at Saks or Nordstroms at Norman's own Caymans on Main, on a smaller-scale.  I think it would be cool to see a larger two story Cayman's open up on Campus Corner with womens apparel on the first floor and mens on the second.  It would be absolutely packed on gamedays and bring more people to the Corner.

----------


## Spartan

I have honestly never been to Caymen's. Is it any better than Harold's? That I do buy stuff from...

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## allure

> Your meaning being that everyone in Norman is too poor to shop at Saks.  I was just saying that's not the case, people in Norman don't shop at Saks regularly because there's not one around.



On a regular basis, NO, I don't think enough of Norman could support a Saks, regardless of whoever lives or travels to Norman, for whatever reason.  

This has gone beyond our general discussion of 'upscale stores', though, as we are just talking about Saks Fifth Avenue now.  And no, Norman will NEVER have a Saks Fifth Avenue, period.   You are arguing with the geodemographics now, not me.

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## allure

> ^ You can find most of the same items you can find at Saks or Nordstroms at Norman's own Caymans on Main, on a smaller-scale.


...a smaller scale and far less expensive scale. 

 We are talking Saks, people, the same store Winona Ryder stole over $6,000 worth of merchandise!  That's the point, everything in Saks is extremly expensive and I really don't think it's realistic that they would ever be successful in a town like Norman.  We are talking $1500 for one item....I don't think so, not here!!

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## Easy180

so allure..I can't really tell from your posts...Are you saying that Norman can afford a Saks??   :Tiphat:  

My wife would do backflips if the metro ever does get a Nordstrom's...Wide variety of $150 jeans and $200 shoes....Hurts me just to think about it!

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## Midtowner

Allure must be too poor to be able to shop at Nordsrom's and Saks.

Not all of us are poor.  Some of us don't mind spending money for quality and uniqueness.

----------


## allure

> so allure..I can't really tell from your posts...Are you saying that Norman can afford a Saks??   
> 
> My wife would do backflips if the metro ever does get a Nordstrom's...Wide variety of $150 jeans and $200 shoes....Hurts me just to think about it!



No, I don't think Norman can afford a Saks.

----------


## allure

> Allure must be too poor to be able to shop at Nordsrom's and Saks.
> 
> Not all of us are poor.  Some of us don't mind spending money for quality and uniqueness.



No, I am not poor and can afford to shop wherever I want.  

Have you been to a Saks Fifth Avenue?

----------


## Midtowner

Yep, I have.  I agree with you that Norman is probably not the best place for one of these things.  Penn Square Mall, however, might actually be able to support a Nordstrom's/Sak's/N.M.'s, etc.  Oklahoma City is certainly a large enough market to support something like this. 

We shouldn't have to drive to Dallas for decent shopping.

Go over to Sak's site, they are in Tulsa, Baton Rouge, and several other markets I wouldn't quite put at the top of the retail food chain.  OKC is definitely in that class as far as being able to support upscale shopping.  There is simply no reasonable ground upon which you can stand claiming that OKC can't support one of these stores.

I'm with you that Norman probably isn't the best place, but OKC in general?  Perhaps a Bricktown canal-side location when the I-40 relocation takes place?  I think such a thing could really be successful.

----------


## allure

> Yep, I have.  I agree with you that Norman is probably not the best place for one of these things...  Oklahoma City is certainly a large enough market to support something like this. 
> 
>  There is simply no reasonable ground upon which you can stand claiming that OKC can't support one of these stores.
> 
> I'm with you that Norman probably isn't the best place, but OKC in general?


Have you read any of my previous posts??  That's exactly what I already said.  This was always about Norman ( University North Park), not about OKC.  My argument was I don't think NORMAN can support a Saks and the list of upscale stores that it can support is limited.

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## Midtowner

I'll admit -- I didn't read all 5 pages.  I came in on the tail end of this and found it mildly interesting.

Okay, we agree then.  Locating in Norman would essentially be ignoring the Edmond, Yukon, NW OKC people who would probably end up being 4/5 or so of the clientelle.  The only way a business like Sak's will make it in the OKC metro is with a central and convenient location.

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## allure

> I'll admit -- I didn't read all 5 pages.  I came in on the tail end of this and found it mildly interesting.
> 
> Okay, we agree then.  Locating in Norman would essentially be ignoring the Edmond, Yukon, NW OKC people who would probably end up being 4/5 or so of the clientelle.  The only way a business like Sak's will make it in the OKC metro is with a central and convenient location.


Thank you!  That's all I was trying to say about certain upscale stores and Norman.

----------


## Midtowner

After some consideration, perhaps Sak's could make it in Norman.  Let's even say for the sake of argument that they could.

What sane, rational person is going to say that locating in Norman is better than locating in central OKC?

Norman/Moore might have passable locations, but Downtown, Bricktown, Penn Square could offer far better opportunities for stores like Sak's.

----------


## Spartan

Wow, about half the posts on this page are hidden. Cool beans!

Personally, Midtowner, I would consider any location in Norman far superior to the rest of the metro save the inner OKC areas.

----------


## Midtowner

Build in Norman, you basically squander having any significant number of people from NW OKC, Edmond and Yukon showing up.  

Penn Square, downtown, or a Bricktown location would be far superior to Norman.  Why would they choose to make less money?  Norman might 'work,' but that's not the concern when someone like Sak's builds a new store.  They care about what 'works best.'  Norman just ain't it.

----------


## Spartan

Norman is by and large far superior to Edmond or Yukon, IMO, but I'll save it for another debate...

Norman has just the development for a Saks.

----------


## allure

> Norman is by and large far superior to Edmond or Yukon


...uhh

You can't just say that b/c your pride for Norman overrules your demographic knowledge of the OKC area, sorry.

----------


## allure

On a brighter note,  Does anyone know if they really are going to put a Chipotle in UNP??

----------


## poe

i think the saks/nordstrom/neiman marcus horse is dead.

----------


## Spartan

Ye have little faith...

----------


## Midtowner

> Norman is by and large far superior to Edmond or Yukon, IMO, but I'll save it for another debate...
> 
> Norman has just the development for a Saks.


Really?  Based on what?

Norman has a 2003 population estimate of 99,197 and a median income of $36,713 according to epodunk.com.

According to that same site, Edmond has a 2003 est. pop. of 71,643 and a median income of $54,556.  Add that to Yukon with its population of 21,152 and its median income of $45,265, add to that the richer parts of Oklahoma City which are probably greater in term of numbers and income, throw in South OKC which is closer to central OKC than it is to Norman, and things start to really come together.  

Based on just those two suburbs, the Edmond/Yukon market is better than the Norman market.  Factor in Oklahoma City itself, and it's no contest.

A retail establishment like Sak's wants to be within a close proximity to the greatest number of potential customers.  Norman does not offer this, central OKC would (as far as this Metro is concerned).  

If you have something better than civic pride to argue, please feel free.  Otherwise, I think the facts speak for themselves.

----------


## Spartan

You have cleary never been TO Norman...

There's more than just I 35 ya know...

----------


## Midtowner

I've been to Norman.

Your response is not responsive.  Look at the demographic information I've laid out there.  Unless you're just in a complete state of denial, you're just wrong.  The best location for a Sak's type store in the metro is not Norman.

Can you give a more compelling reason than I?  Your non-responsive response "There's more than just I 35 ya know" doesn't really cut it.

----------


## TStheThird

The point is, Norman is not going support a Sak's on its own.  You would need the customers from Edmond and NW OKC.  

Maybe something will happen on Western with the Chesapeake development.  You would then pull the wealthiest part of OKC, Edmond, and Norman.

----------


## Spartan

I am against a Sak's anywhere north of 23rd Street. Period and point-blank. I don't see how that's any better than a Sak's in Norman, which beats the rest of the metro HANDS DOWN.

You honestly could spend a day just literally walking around Norman with a camera, and enjoying the historic homes, urban neighorhoods, the campus, and of course, OU football. This is not something that any other area in the metro, 'cept downtown OKC, can offer up.

----------


## Midtowner

One word:  Demographics.

Historical homes??  Football?  What do those things have to do with high end retail?

----------


## Spartan

Why do you only pick at a portion of my posts? WHY GOD!!! Gets kinda annoying sometimes, you see...

I will defend myself if you wish to continue beating a dead horse, like me and you do in SO MANY threads. When Sak's looks for a location, they will look for a city with CLASS. Hate to break it to you, but Edmond is a suburb, and nothing more than a suburb. So is Yukon, Midwest City, Mustang, Moore, and anywhere else...

Penn Square is a crowded mall with ZERO places to add in. Perhaps somewould could get Dillard's to merge into one location, double the size of that one (adding floors would be necessary) and use a former Dillard's at Penn Square, and expand the hell out of it and upgrade the inside and exterior to look more upscale....

That would be too much hassle I do believe. But you're the expert with the inside connection.

----------


## Midtowner

Who said anything about inside connections?  

Also, I never said they'd be smart to locate in Edmond, MWC, etc.  Those would make worse locations than Norman. 

What I did say was that if such an establishment were to locate in Norman, they would essentially be alienating markets like Edmond which would mean the loss of substantial revenues.

Penn Square can be remodeled, multilevel parking can be added, once the I-40 relocation is finished, there will be substantial land available for some major development work in the Bricktown area.  A place like Saks could also immediately revitalize the area south of downtown.  

High end retail could care less about a city with class.  They want money -- that's all.  They'll go wherever the money will have the least trouble finding them.

----------


## Spartan

> Who said anything about inside connections?


Well you seemed to have it all, I was just saying. In fact, it would seem as if there is no reason to read anyone's post except for Midtowner's...

----------


## allure

Thank you, Midtowner, for elaborating on what I was trying to express all along.  It seems no one wants to listen to what others have to say unless you have a ton of posts!

----------


## Midtowner

> Well you seemed to have it all, I was just saying. In fact, it would seem as if there is no reason to read anyone's post except for Midtowner's...


Yeah, well, why would you want to pay attention to a silly thing like income demographics when building a high end retail store... yeah, that's silly.

It's definitely more important to have a football stadium, a smaller presences of proximity to wealth than other potential neighborhoods, and oh yeah... "class" which clearly OKC has none of and Norman has plenty of.  

You seem content to discuss the intangibles Norman may have going for it, (which even still is debateable) but you seem a little too unconcerned with the tangibles.  

-- which do you think is more important to a high end retail store whose goal is to make money?  You're just being stubborn now.

What I see is you objecting to "how" I said that, not "what" I said.  I don't even see how "how" is relevent.  Perhaps you could fill us in on that as well.

----------


## Easy180

allure....We do listen to people with low post numbers, but you do have to admit you came on here a little strong with the wrangler podunk Oklahoma statements 

But I also agree most upscale stores would do better in the metro to pull in customers from all the surrounding burbs

----------


## traxx

Allure, you're the one that got all hung up on Saks.  Not all of us have a hard on for Saks like you do.  What, do you have a financial stake in the company or something?  Saks isn't the be all end all you think it is.  Sure it's nice but it's not the only store in the universe.

All we were saying is that it'd be nice for UNP to have something different and unique to the area.  Something a little bit more upscale than the Super Target there or Old Navy.  We've done the big box thing and it sucks, no matter how much you think fits Norman.  Everyone's tired of the homogeny of having the same thing in every shopping area in every city.  Why travel somewhere when you've got all the same stores everywhere else.  Big box is what ruined Belle Isle, it could have been a unique place but someone thought we needed another Shoe Carnival.

----------


## OUman

I'll agree with all that's been said about Saks located in Norman after digging a bit into the company and its clientele. It does make sense that for it to work in the metro area it would need customers from all parts of the metro. Anyway, enough of that I guess.

Moving onto UNP, let's remember that Boren has a say in what goes into the area (which is why the Super Target is a brick structure in the first place). If he wants a store that's more upscale and different than the ones along Big Box parkway, you can bet that there will be a store more upscale in UNP than what Norman already has.

----------


## TStheThird

Edmond has had a brick Target for four years.  It looks a little better, but at the end of the day, it is still Target.  It will be interesting to see if they put anything in UNP that will make it unique.  Having a bunch of generic retail stores with a nicer facade isn't going to get it done.

----------


## traxx

^^Totally Agree

----------


## TStheThird

Another point, bricked Super Targets and Super WalMarts are the status quo.  The new walmart in Stillwater is Brick.  The new stores across the counrty are being built to blend in better.  They try and use the tpical building materials of that region.

Oklahoma equals red dirt equals brick.

I doubt Boren had much to do with Target being brick.  Target has been building stores with a nicer facade for a while now.

----------


## OUman

^That's what the article in The Oklahoman stated, I didn't come up with that. Besides, as I said, it's *University* North Park, and the article did say Boren has an influence into what goes there. And it also mentioned that the focus will be on getting stores that are different and unique to Norman, especially in the new outdoor mall.

On another note, has anyone tried out the new European foods shop on Main? It right down the street from the Sooner Theatre, I heard it has European wines and cheeses among other things.

----------


## TStheThird

I don't believe they can sell wine and cheese in the same location.

----------


## OUman

Ahh well, they don't have wines then, but I heard it's big on European cheeses, 200+ different kinds.

----------


## TStheThird

That is cool... has anyone checked it out yet?  I am interested to know what Italian cheeses they have.

----------


## ETL

Is that Embassy Suits sign on the UNP new?

----------


## Spartan

Watchou talkin' bout Willis?

A sign in the development, why yes, would be new. I was in there yesterday shopping at the Target and did not see anything.

----------


## OUman

^Well, there's supposed to be a hotel and convention center down there, so that might be it.

----------


## aintaokie

Anyone know what the new construction starting up north of Target is going to be?

----------


## ETL

Could the UNP be like the Branson Landing?  I am here in Branson, and I thought that the Branson Landing was just awesome!  Here is the website Branson Landing-Welcome To The New Branson Landing.  I think that Norman could support a shopping mall like this.  The UNP could support the same style of shopping as the Landing, if not better!  The Landing also has condos that the UNP could also support.  This could work for Norman.  Maybe the same company could come in and do the samething, but bigger and call it the Norman landing.

----------


## Spartan

It is supposed to be something simillar to the landing. Though, the ped mall was indeed downsized. It was supposed to be at a level with Southlake, though obviously, it is not.

There is still a lot of un-planned land that will be included in the development, however.

----------


## ETL

What is ped mall?
I just hope this is as good as the Landing. Who is controling all this?

----------


## Spartan

Do you know who the developer is?





It's the OU Regents.

----------


## jbrown84

> Edmond has had a brick Target for four years.  It looks a little better, but at the end of the day, it is still Target.  It will be interesting to see if they put anything in UNP that will make it unique.  Having a bunch of generic retail stores with a nicer facade isn't going to get it done.


Other than the one in Edmond and the one in UNP, every new or remodeled Target I've seen in OKC and elsewhere has been EIFS.

----------


## TStheThird

Cool... the point is, who gives a crap about a Target.

----------


## ETL

I don't mean to be dumb, but what does EIFS mean?

----------


## Easy180

> Cool... the point is, who gives a crap about a Target.


Those of us saddled with the same old crap at Walmart do TS....Supertarget blows away Walmart's groceries and deli...Pretty good sushi as well

----------


## windowphobe

EIFS = "Exterior Insulation Finishing System(s)" = synthetic stucco.

Can be attractive, but often isn't, and New Urbanist types hate it because it reeks of suburbia.

----------


## Spartan

Not because it wreaks of suburbia, but because it is a cheap, low-quality material.

----------


## kielaaron

> New Urbanist types hate it because it reeks of suburbia.


EIFS no longer reeks of suburbia - it reeks of all things new.  Even here in San Francisco new residential buildings go up covered with this crap.  Go to Arizona or Nevada and see every house clad in it.  And now they try to trowel it to look like concrete, but it's still the same chemical styrofoam beneath.  EIFS is a nifty solution to use... sparingly.  But because of its quick installation and affordability people like Randy Hogan use it inhibit the aesthetic of most new developments.

----------


## traxx

Does anyone know what all the work going on North of Target in UNP is going to be?  Is it just one project that they're working on now or many?

----------


## metro

I think it's just infrastructure work so when tenants are ready for UNP, the infrastructure will be there so they can start construction sooner. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like.

----------


## traxx

K, thanks.

----------


## dismayed

It's a new retail / strip mall center.  It's not the big mall that has been talked about.

----------


## oudirtypop

> This is what I know about University North Park:
> 
> Target will officially open 10/3/2006.  Throughout the center proposed tenants include TJ Maxx, Circuit City, Office Depot, Petco, Kirklands, Dress Barn, Maurices, Rack Room Shoes.  PF Changs as well as Pei Wei are heavily considered as possible tenants.  Chipolte will be located on an outparcel.  Starbucks will be a build-to-suit in Area 1B.  JC Penney will be located in  Area 2A, while Kohl's will be located in Area 2B.  John Q hammons will build Embassy Suites in Area 4 along with a large convention center.
> 
> Home Depot is in negotation to take Area 3A, which means the present location on I-35 will be vacated.
> 
> Other possible tenants include: high end eateries, Hal Smith type restaurants, Whole Foods, Costco, and The Container Store.
> 
> A theatre is planned for the Lifestyle Center however it is to be small and offer dining during the movie.
> ...


OKYBOY, JCPenny is building a new store in Moore. South of 19th. I appreciate your information but please portray them as your thoughts, not as facts. Could you let us know where you got those ideas? I wouldnt think Home Depot would move two miles north, closer to the big store that is in moore! Either Way, keep up the enthusiasm!

----------


## oudirtypop

> This project needs a tenent like Dave & Busters or Game Works. Also, it needs an entertainment facility like Main Event :: Bowling :: Billiards :: Lasertag :: Videogames :: Rock Clilmbing :: Main Event. Think outside the box!


If you have ever been to a Dave and Busters, You would like it. I dont think a Main Event would be good with the two new places on indian hills. I think a dave and busters would be perfect. Plus, its half a sports bar and half to play! Big points on that one ETL!

----------


## Easy180

Guess Pei Wei is an official go from what I read in the Transcript...Pretty much all the places okyboy listed in his post was also in the Transcript release today

So excited to have a TJ Maxx or Marshall's near me...Can hardly contain myself

----------


## MikeLucky

> Guess Pei Wei is an official go from what I read in the Transcript...Pretty much all the places okyboy listed in his post was also in the Transcript release today
> 
> So excited to have a TJ Maxx or Marshall's near me...Can hardly contain myself


Yeah, I'm a little disappointed that there aren't bigger players yet.....  My guess would be that we won't get any commitments until the city council takes care of the TIF.  It's making Hammons wait, so I hope that it all gets worked out and this can get some upscale stuff coming in.....

But the Pei Wei news has me VERY excited.....  I am a big fan.   :Congrats:

----------


## Easy180

Have to agree about Pei Wei...Excellent every time I have eaten there

----------


## traxx

> Guess Pei Wei is an official go from what I read in the Transcript...Pretty much all the places okyboy listed in his post was also in the Transcript release today
> 
> So excited to have a TJ Maxx or Marshall's near me...Can hardly contain myself


I'm guessing you're being sarcastic about the tj maxx and marshall's, if not I'm not trying to make fun.  This was built up to be such a big development, as something special and different for the area but it sounds like now it's just going to be a glorified strip mall.  Maybe they'll put in a nail salon, Gamestop and Cingular store to boot!

----------


## Easy180

> I'm guessing you're being sarcastic about the tj maxx and marshall's, if not I'm not trying to make fun.  This was built up to be such a big development, as something special and different for the area but it sounds like now it's just going to be a glorified strip mall.  Maybe they'll put in a nail salon, Gamestop and Cingular store to boot!


Definitely sarcastic...Looks to be just another strip center with those boring tenants....And please please have two or three check cashing places as well...Just can't seem to find any of those places when I am looking for a respectable 56% loan  :Doh:

----------


## BG918

Maybe now the "real" unique and more upscale businesses/restaurants will locate in a revitalized downtown Norman/Campus Corner rather than in a development by the highway.  I was never going to frequent UNP anyway because it's not near where I live (central Norman).  If this was a really stellar development I'd be afraid of it negatively impacting downtown and the Corner but it looks like it won't.

----------


## traemac

There will be a new AT&T(Cingular) store opening between July and September

----------


## BFizzy

I never expected UNP to be a 585 acre development of only upscale shops.  However, I do have higher expectations for the lifestyle center.  The lifestyle centers in The Woodlands, Plano, and South Lake all have these types of stores around them.  585 acres is huge.  I think it is too early to write this development off as a "glorified stripmall".  It actually seems like some people hope this does turn out to be a failure just so they can complain about it and say "I told you so".  I hope I'm wrong.  

I'll take the nicest Super Target I've ever seen over a big mound of dirt (Mt. Williams) any day.

----------


## jbrown84

> Maybe they'll put in a nail salon, Gamestop and Cingular store to boot!


and Cato and Dollar Tree...

----------


## Easy180

I am excited over the SuperTarget...Made frequent 40 minute drives just to shop there on Memorial....Also excited about Pei Wei coming in....Rest of the list not so much...Same crapola coming in the Moore Strip Center just different names

I too hope there will be some better tenants come along...Definitely don't want it to suck being so close to home

----------


## traxx

I had high hopes for this development but am now disappointed.  With the latest news of the same ol' crap coming to the development, I'm not holding out alot of hope for the lifestyle center.

----------


## oudirtypop

I dont really mind the "same old crap" stores. I think those are necessary stores to support diversity. Meaning, you have to have some of the old or regular to have some of the new and different. The key point to me is that it doesnt turn into an Ed Noble parkway x2 and even uglier because the back of the stores faces the highway!

----------


## jbrown84

Sure, but so far there is no new and different.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Sure, but so far there is no new and different.


thank the Norman City Council.... they are dragging their feet on the TIF and it is putting, not only the more "upscale" shops in jeopardy, but now Hammon's is waiting to begin the hotel and convention center....

so hopefully they get their act together....

----------


## jbrown84

It's kind of crazy that Hammons plans a hotel/convention center in UNP _and_ the I-35 & Covell project, _and_ and Embassy Suites downtown.

----------


## oudirtypop

> Sure, but so far there is no new and different.


There isn't old either. Actually, there is nothing but a target. 

Why dont you guys lay off of the UNP project. Its not even really underway yet. Have  a little faith that they are going to do what they said they are, and thats something bigger and better! How can anyone say there is nothing new or different when there is nothing old and the same?

I think the point of this thread is to talk about what you hear, what you want, what you dont want etc, not bash it before it starts. If you want new and different, talk about that. Dont gripe about something that doesnt exist! There has been no plans finalized saying that we are getting a cingular, a nail place, donut store, dry cleaning and oil change place. So why think thats all its going to be. I'm sorry even those regular "old and the same" stores arent enough to fill up 2.5 million square feet, so obviously we are getting something big and exciting. 

CHILL OUT

----------


## dismayed

I agree, give it time.  From what I understand David Boren is still very involved in the project.  The man's very well connected and great at playing the game from what I can tell... I just can't believe he would let it turn into yet another strip mall.

----------


## dirtrider73068

The lateset I heard is some of the shops in the sooner mall are going to move out there, grapevine says the mall owner has raised the leases and they don't want to pay what he wants. I can see UNP being another Ed Noble Parkway, norman city coucil is gutless and don't really care about what the citizens of norman want, if it benifits the council and makes them look good they go for it.

----------


## jbrown84

> How can anyone say there is nothing new or different when there is nothing old and the same?


I'm just going off the list of tenants that have been annouced and so far there is nothing that's new to this market.

Sportsman's Warehouse
Pei Wei
Target
TJ Maxx
Circuit City
Office Depot
Petco
Kirklands
Dress Barn
Maurices
Rack Room Shoes
PF Changs

...pretty much describes Memorial and Penn, although I can imagine for Normanites it's exciting to get some of these things near them, like Target, Pei Wei, and PF Changs.

And not only is it nothing new, with the exception of Pei Wei and PF Changs, there's nothing even remotely upscale.

No Talbots, no White House l Black Market, no Apple Store, no Jos. A Bank, no J. Crew, no Banana Republic, etc.  SO FAR, I'm not impressed.

----------


## BG918

^ Perfect for a revitalized downtown retail strip along Main Street east of Flood, or a new mixed-use district along University Blvd. through Campus Corner.  Those kinds of stores would be more inclined to open in urban areas of central Norman, which is where they belong.

----------


## oudirtypop

> I'm just going off the list of tenants that have been annouced and so far there is nothing that's new to this market.
> 
> Sportsman's Warehouse
> Pei Wei
> Target
> TJ Maxx
> Circuit City
> Office Depot
> Petco
> ...


can you tell me where you got that list of tenants?

----------


## jbrown84

In this very thread.

----------


## oudirtypop

> I'm just going off the list of tenants that have been annouced and so far there is nothing that's new to this market.
> 
> Sportsman's Warehouse
> Pei Wei
> Target
> TJ Maxx
> Circuit City
> Office Depot
> Petco
> ...



Can anyone verify actual sources for any of this information? I mean, yesterday, the lady that cuts my hair at sport clips said they are thinking about putting another sports clips in over by the target, but that sure doesnt mean they are going to. Besides Target and Embassy Suites, has anyone actually read, heard or been told any other FOR SURE things going in UNP? i'm sure a few of these places will end up there, but i haven't been able to find anything about 90% of that list. Not to mention, by not finding anything about them, doesn't mean that banana, J. Crew, or the others aren't going there either.

----------


## oudirtypop

> This is what I know about University North Park:
> 
> Target will officially open 10/3/2006.  Throughout the center proposed tenants include TJ Maxx, Circuit City, Office Depot, Petco, Kirklands, Dress Barn, Maurices, Rack Room Shoes.  PF Changs as well as Pei Wei are heavily considered as possible tenants.  Chipolte will be located on an outparcel.  Starbucks will be a build-to-suit in Area 1B.  JC Penney will be located in  Area 2A, while Kohl's will be located in Area 2B.  John Q hammons will build Embassy Suites in Area 4 along with a large convention center.
> 
> Home Depot is in negotation to take Area 3A, which means the present location on I-35 will be vacated.
> 
> Other possible tenants include: high end eateries, Hal Smith type restaurants, Whole Foods, Costco, and The Container Store.
> 
> A theatre is planned for the Lifestyle Center however it is to be small and offer dining during the movie.
> ...


Hey OKBOY, where did you get this info?

----------


## Easy180

New stores announced for University North Park development

----------


## jbrown84

Also there are maps floating around somewhere that show the locations of all these stores in the development.  Don't remember where I saw it.

----------


## oudirtypop

> Also there are maps floating around somewhere that show the locations of all these stores in the development.  Don't remember where I saw it.


Here you go jbrown, not a good scan really though:



nice web page, EASY!

----------


## Spartan

Sooner Investments has a pdf file with all of the tenants of this shopping center up. You're welcome to take a look there if you want to know what's fact and fiction.

I bring this up because most of what jbrown said is true ... those are the tenants for now. The only tenant announced so far for the pedestrian mall is Belk's, which doesn't really impress me, for their pedestrian mall...

----------


## TStheThird

I was fairly disappointed with the Belk that recently opened in Stillwater.

----------


## jbrown84

> Sooner Investments has a pdf file with all of the tenants of this shopping center up.


yeah thats where I saw it

----------


## oudirtypop

These might be the most helpful links in this whole discussion! Bookmark these. I am sure more information to come in the coming months!
Thanks for telling us about it Spartan.

After Seeing these, thats pretty exciting.

http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...man-071406.pdf


http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_..._dp-071406.pdf

http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...ons-071406.pdf

http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...orman-1106.pdf

----------


## oudirtypop

Now, i do have one bit of confusion...why would they put a kohls there with the one right up the road? Also, they are currently building a new JCPenny off of 19th and i 35, so why put another one of those there also? That doesnt make much sense to me.

I would guess, in the lifestyle mall part we will see big names, high end...mac, white house, banana, gapkids, etc.

----------


## metro

This is one thing I can actually agree with oudirtypop on, give this development some time.

----------


## brianinok

I am thinking it is a good sign that the JC Penney is not in the lifestyle center portion of the development.

----------


## Spartan

> These might be the most helpful links in this whole discussion! Bookmark these. I am sure more information to come in the coming months!
> Thanks for telling us about it Spartan.
> 
> After Seeing these, thats pretty exciting.
> 
> http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...man-071406.pdf
> 
> 
> http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_..._dp-071406.pdf
> ...


No problem. And don't quite piddle your pants just yet ... what we've seen so far is, on the whole, quite depressing for the "BIGGEST PROJECT OF ALL-TIME" that we were expecting. Note the sarcasm...

This project will eventually work its way up to Tecumseh, is my understanding, and I'm hoping that this would just get more, and more impressive as we go. The residential market in Norman, where I live, is booming, and it will be interesting to see if the developers intend to take advantage of that.

----------


## ETL

I like the look, modern.  I think they are giving it a good shot.  The Branson Landing is really nice and it had Belk.  I don't know anything bout it.  Is it high-end?

----------


## oudirtypop

> I like the look, modern.  I think they are giving it a good shot.  The Branson Landing is really nice and it had Belk.  I don't know anything bout it.  Is it high-end?


my wife said she went in one in mckinney and it was pretty nice, maybe a couple notches up from kohls, but the same overall idea as jc penny, or dillards. She thought she remembered it had kinda dim lighting to make it feel more home-like. She said she enjoyed just didnt remember too much else about it.

----------


## Pete

Belk's are okay but nothing to get excited about.

There are already two in OK:  Owasso & Stillwater.  So, that should tell you something.

----------


## traxx

> This project will eventually work its way up to Tecumseh,


We should probably clarify, for those unfamiliar with the area, that we mean Tecumseh Road and not the town of Tecumseh.  I know that to those of us who know the area that seems like a no-brainer but some may not know that there's such a road in that area.

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## jbrown84

Yeah that did confuse me for minute.  I went to college in Shawnee so I had Tecumseh the town in my head.

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## Spartan

It's a four lane road .....

Although not out by where I live, lol.

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## roontburger2006

Hey..I'm new..but this site/forum seems really cool.  I'm new to living in the OKC area but I've visited here all my life.  I heard that the huge Norman project was to be one of the nations 5 biggest malls.  I'm pretty disappointed to hear that it might be just a strip mall..Although it is still huge, so we can pretty much hope for anything.  I know this is really random..but does anyone know if they are planning for an Urban Outfitters to come to the OKC area?  I attend Hillsdale FWB college in Moore and its crazy that the closest Urban Outfitters is in Dallas!

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## Spartan

There will be an Urban Outfitters in Broken Arrow, one of Tulsa's suburbs, but nothing for OKC yet.

Umm... why do you go to Free Will Baptist College?

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## traxx

> Umm... why do you go to Free Will Baptist College?


Sounds a little rude Spartan.  Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but it comes across as such.  I think we might be a little more welcoming to new posters.

To answer, roontburger, we're all a bit disappointed because we'd heard the same thing.  We'd heard that it was going to be the second largest in the country and be this great new thing for the area.  From what we've found out since, it seems that it'll be just another strip mall.  There's still time for it to be corrected though.  We can only hope.

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## BG918

Am I the only one glad this isn't going to be as big as planned?  I saw it as something that would really change the dynamic of Norman and continue turning into just another suburban community.  How many good college towns have huge retail centers like this anyway?  College town retail should be centered by the COLLEGE.  I want to see more retail and restaurants in central Norman not out by the interstate.  It seems as though this will be a retail center with mainly national chains but nothing that upscale or even new to the Metro.  It will be auto-oriented with possibly more of a mixed-use area added in the future with residential and offices further up 24th.  This will allow central Norman to be full of the more unique and local retail/restaurants and I believe anything really upscale would rather be near the University in Campus Corner or downtown.  Some chains like Chipotle, Banana Republic, Urban Outfitters, etc. would be welcome additions to the mostly local scene in central Norman but Belk, Target, TJ Maxx, Dress Barn, etc. belong in this development by the highway...

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## oudirtypop

BG, its still going to be as big. 

I dont know where you grew up, but every town, well, growing town, has a large retail development. If you look at this optimistically, you would realize that the growth on the highway, will result in more sustainable growth around campus and central norman. 

You must be confused, norman is a suburb, not a college town. If you take OU out of norman, it would still function. True, it wouldnt be nearly as good, and it would kinda suck for a while, but Norman could rebound. It is such a vibrant city outside of the college. If you took OSU out of stillwater, it would suck even more.  But, its still not really a college town. Now, you take SWOSU out of weatherford, and that town is a ghost town. If you look at norman, at over 100k people, i think its quite more than a college town, and projects like this just prove that to be true.

As i have said before in this thread, you have to get the big names, to get the unheard of or small names. How well do you think a jimmy johns is going to do when it opens in yukon? Probably not as good as a subway. Now, what if you put a subway there first, then a block away you throw in a jimmy johns. The traffic is there, so now you can steal the patrons for the new store.

As i have said, have a little patience. We can all gripe and complain when it turns out to be a dud, until then, lets be optimistic!

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## BG918

Norman is very much a college town in parts and very suburban in other parts.  I personally would rather see the investment go into the urban areas around the campus but realize highway development is also lucrative.  I just think if there is going to be a "town center" shopping area it should be mixed-use and not be full of parking lots and cheap stores.  But if it takes a development like this for the cheap suburban chains to locate in Norman I hope the upscale businesses continue to stay around campus or migrate that way.

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## BFizzy

It's pretty funny that UNP won't even be complete until at least 2010 and several people have already written it off as a strip mall failure.   It's going to be two miles long, yet some act like they were expecting the whole thing to be a town center.  

The first tenants may not be glamourous, but that doesn't mean it is just a strip mall.  It will have a town center, a park, lots of water features, lots of landscaping, hotels, a convention center, restaurants, and it is all going to be contained within one development with the same unified architecture utilizing brick, not EIFS.  Every town center that I have been too has had a sea of parking around them and strip malls nearby.  So, please... just give it some time.

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## oudirtypop

Totally Agree BFizzy....besides, how are we supposed to shop if we dont have anywhere to park?

Has anyone else noticed how many trees are in Targets parking lot. Give it a few years, and that will look quite nice.

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## jbrown84

There is a towncenter in the Houston suburb of Sugarland that has a parking garage.  I'm talking 4 or 5 levels.

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## roontburger2006

Hey again guys...yea..I agree..its better to be positive about it.  Any way you look at it, its gonna be a huge project and it will probably add a lot to Norman!  I mean would you rather have nothing at all?  The only thing that for me personally might have been a little letdown was thinking that it was going to be a "Mall of America" type thing, but in Oklahoma.  Whatever it is, I'm sure it will still be cool though!

Oh..and about asking why I go to Hillsdale...I just really like it here and its a good atmosphere and I have lots of good caring friends.  Its been a great experience so far.  I'm from Stratford..so being in the OKC AREA is much more entertaining than living in a town with a graduating class of 34 people..and we always still had things to do, and no I'm not a redneck, far from it actually. But it is kind of amazing how much more people gripe about little things in the city(such as not having a starbucks on a certain street when the closest one MAY be 10 minutes at the max) but that's kind of off subject, sorry.   Oh, and I wasn't going to ECU (in Ada) to party with all the small town kids who just care about being cool.  Not that everybody there is like that, I have some good friends there...but honestly I just wanted to get out of the small town where everyone tried to act cool and impress each other because we're in such a small group type thing.  There are so many more opportunities in the city and more people.  Not to say there's not drama everywhere you go..but I just needed a new atmosphere for awhile.


About Urban Outfitters in Broken Arrow..is that in the Woodland Hills Mall?  Or is Woodland Hills considered in Tulsa? How long until it opens?  Thanks guys..

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## jbrown84

roontburger, I'm glad you like Hillsdale and like OKC, and welcome to OKCTalk.

Woodland Hills would be Tulsa, so the Urban Outfitters must be somewhere else, probably in the big development where Bass Pro went in.  I looked on their website however and saw nothing of opening soon in Broken Arrow, so I don't know.

There are a lot of us here that would really like to see one in OKC.  I noticed a lot of their stores are in college towns.  Their only Kansas location is in Lawrence, so maybe Norman will be first to get an Urban Outfitters.

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## roontburger2006

Thanks for the welcome!  And yea...that seems perfect to have on in Norman..I'm sure it would do well with a lot of the trendy OU kids..haha..I've seen quite a few of them at Lifestream. (that's that big college thing that Journey Church does on Thursdays..I'm not advertising just explaining what it was in case anybody didn't know..lol) :Artist:

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## BFizzy

On Cox Channel 20 in Norman they are airing a local government access show of the Norman City Council discussing the UNP.  A representative just said that they have had very positive feedback from upscale tenants for the Lifestyle Center.   Some of the tenants that he said they received positive feedback from were Whole Foods, Wild Oats, Banana Republic, J. Crew, Urban Outfitters, Macy's, ZGallerie, PF Changs, Freebird's World Burrito, and several others that I have already forgotten.  Obviously, there is a huge difference between "positive feedback" and  firm commitments, but at least it proves that they are trying to land the upscale tenants that we are expecting.

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## Easy180

Now that would be more like it bfizzy...Let's hope they land a few of those

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## BFizzy

I found the exact quote in the Norman Transcript:

"We have to have consumer traffic to support the lifestyle center. The lifestyle center is the critical piece," he said.

Nelson said some of the potential clients that have been contacted that have responded in a positive way include *Whole Foods, Wild Oats, Dick's Sporting Goods, Macy's, Belk's, Urban Outfitters, J. Crew, Guess, Banana Republic, Puma, Lucky Brand, Coldwater Creek, Restoration Hardware, Williams-Sonoma, Apple, Dell, Pottery Barn, Discovery Channel, PF Chang's, California Kitchen, Johnny Rocket's and Ted's Montana Grill.*
"And there are many other not only anchor stores, specialty stores and retailers we are working on," Nelson said. "You can tell the higher-end retailers that we're after. Obviously we are very early in the process. But the fact that these type of tenants are interested in Norman is a very positive thing."

Link: The Norman Transcript - Hotel/conference project approved

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## Easy180

Checked out Ted's Montana website and it looks like it would be a welcome addition looking at their menu...A PF Chang's closer than Memorial would also be very nice for us down south

Was kinda hoping for a dang Dave & Buster's on that list

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## jbrown84

I didn't even know Puma and Lucky had their own stores.  I wish we had a Levi's Store in the metro.

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## TStheThird

Puma stores are world wide baby.  For real...

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## dismayed

Okay, so far the only thing under construction is the out-lieing strip mall, so why are so many of you assuming that all we are getting is a strip mall?  You're forgetting about the other gazillion acres that hasn't even been developed yet.

Freebirds World Burrito.  Interesting.  I'm not in the food business but I have tossed around the idea of starting a few things on the side and I actually contacted them a few years ago about a potential franchise and at that time they said they were not interested in starting up operations outside of the state of Texas.  I believe it had to do with their whole production/supply model and the ramifications of extending it a few hundred miles north.

Regarding Campus Corner and putting upscale stuff in there... that's crazy.  As much as the OU college kids may want to pretend they are living in Dallas and going to SMU, the fact is that they don't spend at upscale restaurants anywhere near as much as the local suburban types on the west side do.  Heck, even fast casual places in Campus are struggling meanwhile pretty much every chain imaginable is flourishing on the west side.  Add to that the seasonability of Campus and it's almost a corporate death sentence to anyone who opens up shop over there.  Besides, until recently the most upscale place in Campus was a bar that had piles of jockstraps decorating the glass backing of the main bar area.  That's real classy and upscale.

Look at the demographics and where the money is being spent, and where the easy highway access is, and it is clear that UNP is the correct placement for the things that are to come.

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## BG918

I completely disagree with upscale retail/restaurants not working in Campus Corner or downtown.  Even though there is a lot of money on the westside the neighborhoods around campus, especially the ones just to the west and southwest, have some very wealthy residents mixed in with middle income and students.  Infill in these neigborhoods is becoming more common with several houses being torn down and replaced with new ones or existing homes refurbished.  There is a growing number of people who would rather live in the tree-lined neighborhoods near campus that are central to all of Norman rather than the westside, and that will continue.  Also upscale shoppers would be much more likely to stroll a revitalized Main Street for their shopping and dining or walk around Campus Corner than they would driving to some strip mall.  

Campus Corner is seasonal because there isn't enough retail and dining options right now.  That is slowly changing with all of the recent developments, but for the Corner to really become a destination it needs new buildings such as north of White on Asp and along University Blvd. from Boyd to Apache.  Add to that a better concentration of stores and restaurants along Main Street east of Flood, especially now that Hobby Lobby and Mardel are moving to 24th and Main that opens up that "gateway" to downtown for redevelopment.

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## sethOU

hi, i just discovered this forum today... and although this is unrelated to UNP, does anyone have any information about the BJ's Brewhouse going into the old Don Pablo's?

I was wondering when they were planning to open and such...

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## sethOU

hi, i just discovered OKC talk today, and although this is unrelated to UNP... I was wondering if anyone has information on the new BJs Brewhouse going into the old Don Pablo's?

Does anyone know when they plan to open?

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## pbelyea_1@msn.com

Are there any updates on the tenant list for this project. I heard that Costco was a proposed tenant. They will kill Sam's club business.

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## kielaaron

I've yet to see the positive feedback that Banana is supposedly supplying to this center.  I wonder how many other retailers are being touted as inaccurately as BR is...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):    They shouldn't say anything until they have firm LOIs signed, otherwise they're just getting everyone falsely excited.

I want this place to be incredible, but they sure seem to be a lot of talk for time-being.  Hopefully within the next year they will have a more substantially realistic portfolio of tenants to tout.

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## soonergirl

I'm curious... I saw a new building starting a little south of Target... anyone know which tenant is coming next?

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## roontburger2006

Urban Outfitters please! Haha..just kidding.  I'm not really sure, but I'm curious as well.  I'm guessing the urban outfitters, puma, and lucky store will all be in the outside mall area.  This sounds a lot like what Dallas offers to me in places like the Northpark Mall and Mockingbird lane.   If the "outside mall" area turns out anything like the one on Mockingbird lane in Dallas, I'll be thrilled.  I'm guessing it'll be a long time before all that comes in though.

I'm just grateful for whatever comes up..I'm from Stratford...so I'm used to having nothing around to do...so having even more original businesses close to Norman or the college is always great.

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## traemac

should be the cingular/att building

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## zrfdude

I thought that ATT was going on the north side of Target, and the south side (where the loop is) was like Ted's. On the Urban Outfitters issue, I've heard for a long time that Edmond was supposedly getting one. But I've heard that for a long time from multiple people, and nothing has happened. I do olove them though, and wish I didn't have to buy so much stuff online.

I'm thinking the lifestyle center is going to have a lot of shops like maybe Kansas City's Country Club Plaza. I know the last time I was there they had many of the same shops that have been proposed or at least brought up, and some others, like Anthropologie (or something like that, Urban's parent company), Armani Exchange, and some stores that Penn Square have now. They also had an incredible two story gap that was awesome, a big, nice area to shop, no cramped spaces.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to the west of 24 part of the Park, cause the other half is just rehashed stuff I can already get.

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## oudirtypop

i think you mean the east side! The west is going to be a big shopping center...ed noble parkway 2. And they all face the east so the view from the highway is going to be spectacular!

and the building to the south is a teds. I spoke with a managment person at teds and he said they are breaking ground now and set to open in the fall. he also said they are going to have a full bar and be much bigger than any other teds.

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## zrfdude

Yeah, I meant west.

That's good to know about Teds, the other locations are TINY and there's always a huge wait on the weekends.

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## Superhyper

I dearly wish that we could somehow get an H&M. As far as clothing stores go they are delightful, and generally quite a lot cheaper than urban outfitters. Anyone else ever been to one?

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## jbrown84

*H&M* is great!  I went there in New York a few weeks back.  They have much better clothes at Old Navy prices.  It's not an expensive place, so there really is no excuse for them not entering this market.

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## metro

Yeah and H&M would be nice. I've also personally emailed Urban Outfitters several times over the past year and they've mentioned they were highly interested in the OKC metro and currently scouting locations. Hopefully this is accurate information and they will land a couple locations. 

Also, I went to the OU Red/White game this past weekend and saw walls of several other buildings going up at UNP. Alot more dirt work has been done, and a sign for the JQ Hammons Embassy Suites was up but no dirt work had begun.

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## ouguy23

I went to H & M in Chicago for Spring Break and I love that store.  It would be fantastic if we could get one.

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## jbrown84

I looked at H&M's website and their expansion hasn't made it past St. Louis and Chicago yet.  Hopefully we will be in their next round along with KC and Dallas.

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## okclee

I am not sure if this has been listed here or not. Mahogany Prime Steakhouse in the University North Park development.


Steakhouse to locate in UNP @ www.nedcok.com

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## brianinok

It looks like they broke ground on the hotel and conference center.

Hotel, conference center considered to be 'crown jewel' @ www.nedcok.com

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## metro

Any updates on UNP?

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## jbrown84

I drove through there Monday and there are a lot of buildings making progress just north of the Target, and one set much further north all alone.  I thought that was kind of odd.

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## metro

Yeah, I believe the one wayyyyyy north is the Hotel and Conference Center.

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## oudirtypop

The one way north is Kohls. The hotel is on the east side of 24th ave. There isnt anything to see on it yet. They were finishing up drilling piers last week.

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## jbrown84

Yeah, it was a big box.  Couldn't have been the hotel.

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## Martin

kohl's in unp?  would that be too close to the existing one on 19th & i-35?  -M

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## oulostfan

There was a stenciled/painted sign there at one point that said "Kohl's", but I did not think they would put another one that close to the one in Moore.

Amazing how much of a mystery all the development at UNP seems to be! Why all the secrecy???

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## pbelyea_1@msn.com

What is the update on the Embassy Suites - Went to the JQ Hammons website and there is no longer mention of proprerty being built in Norman - Does anyone know what happened?

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## soonerliberal

> What is the update on the Embassy Suites - Went to the JQ Hammons website and there is no longer mention of proprerty being built in Norman - Does anyone know what happened?


They are building it.  It appears they are on the second or third story by now (the shell at least)

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## CCOKC

I wish someone would post some pictures here to show everybody how fast this project is coming along.  It doesn't seem like the rain has slowed them down much.  I drive to through Norman once or twice a week and am always amazed with just how much progress is being made.

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## BFizzy

Here are the latest plans and a brochure for UNP:

http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...an_dp-0607.pdf

http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...chure-0607.pdf

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## BFizzy

Basically, you can add Qdoba, DSW, and Athletic Villiage to the list.

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## traxx

So where's the lifestyle center we've heard so much about.  I couldn't pick it out in those pics from all the parking.  Looks to me like just a crapload of parking and strip mall stores - nothing special.  

This project has really fallen short of what it was originally said to be.  First it was to be the second largest mall in the country then it was to be a lifestyle center.  Either of those would have at least been something fairly unique and different.  I don't see that this is going to be a whole lot different than what's on Ed Noble Pkwy.  But there's still time for me to be proven wrong eventhough I doubt that'll happen.

**disappointed**

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## BFizzy

There's still hope.  They've only announced the tenants of around 300,000 sq ft out of the 1.5 million sq ft.

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## okclee

Count me as another dissapointed citizen. Nothing special, just more of the same.

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## ouguy23

Count me as not disappointed.  I think this will be good for norman over all, especially with the conference center and other businesses not currently in the immediate area. The open air lifestyle center as they have stated before will not be built yet and what we have so far is a small portion of the overall picture. We should still be excited for this.

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## oudirtypop

Traxx, apparently, you dont know what a lifestyle center is. it is a a bunch of strip malls facing each other. The difference between a regular mall and a lifestyle is that you have to walk store to store outside and it kind of feels like old town shopping. If you have ever been to a lifestyle mall, they are very nice, lots of landscaping, small town feel, and lots of walking, but very very nice as compared to a big box mall. Now, its not feasible to fit huge department stores all over the place in a regular mall, thats why they are building the parts they are building. Also, they have to get traffic up so that they can attract the Banana Republic's, Jcrew, etc. to the lifestyle mall.

you might be disappointed but i dont think you understand just how much constructions is yet to be done and how much more there is to come. they havent even started on the lifestyle center which is going to be around 750k feet of shopping. this is a huge area and will take another 3 years to get built out. Be patient.

And this is becoming more than expected because since the inception, they have added a 15 million convention center to be built next to embassy suites. thats a big deal. not to mention, where else in the okc metro or rest of the state is there a 10 story embassy suites. that is a very nice hotel.

just be patient and remember  the old saying "if you build it, they will come". Also, keep in mind there is another mile of undeveloped unplanned property to the north of this that i am sure will boom shortly after this is done.

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## CuatrodeMayo

Architecture Record - October 2006

Pret-a-Cite

Thomas Hine

Can the Main Street looks of a lifestyle center produce an instant community?

Back in the 1970s, there was a lot of talk about how shopping malls had become the new downtowns. Civic life, from which Americans had spent decades trying to escape, was blossoming anew, it was said, amid the plastic plants and the shoe stores.

Even at the time, the argument was a bit ridiculous, as anyone who tried to distribute a pamphlet or advocate a position soon discovered; retail developers suppressed the substance of public life as relentlessly as they removed old chewing gum. As for aesthetics, anyone could see that putting a fountain in front of J.C. Penney didn't make it into the Piazza Navona.

Nowadays, many people are harboring some of the same idealistic--or nostalgic--hopes for the fastest-growing retail format of the moment, the lifestyle center. This is a sort of hybrid of a strip center and a mall, with Main Street overtones. It is outdoors, with varied, yet carefully regulated, building profiles, materials, and signage that are intended to evoke a sense of organic growth over time. Parking is abundant, but usually interlaced with the stores and punctuated by landscaped walks. The projects have names such as "The Shoppes at Grand Prairie," which is located near Peoria, Illinois, and touts its Georgian Revival architecture, or "Aspen Grove," a center in Littleton, Colorado, that features an actual grove of aspens and whose buildings employ seemingly haphazard rooflines and patches of red wooden siding to resemble a cluster of barns.

Such developments usually lack department-store anchor tenants, but they give high visibility to nationally known chains--such as Williams-Sonoma, Restoration Hardware, Banana Republic, and Whole Foods--that offer distinctive products and experiences. They also include a wide range of restaurants, and sometimes nighttime draws such as multiplex cinemas and comedy clubs. Only a few years ago, lifestyle centers averaged 150,000 square feet, but those currently in development range from 500,000 to nearly 1 million square feet.

The building of new malls has come to a near standstill, while lifestyle centers have spread north from the sunbelt and are now operating, or in development, in every part of the country. Typically, they first appear in affluent, fast-growing exurban areas--one reason why per-square-foot sales at lifestyle centers average roughly 22 percent more than at malls, according to the International Council of Shopping Centers. With these numbers, it's easy to see why new ones are springing up so rapidly, and developers are reconfiguring their existing malls according to this model.

The mall, the traditional shopping center form, was based on having two or more department stores at its extremities that would generate plenty of foot traffic for the smaller stores in between. Today, although department stores aren't quite extinct, there are fewer of them, and those that remain lack allure. Fortunately for retail developers, many other retailers are familiar and attractive to consumers, with brands that span catalogs and Web sites. An outdoor center gives these brands a visible presence, and it allows shoppers to park near their favorite stores, get what they want, and get out without enduring a forced march through Macy's.

Efficiency seems to be a real advantage for shoppers. A recent study found they spend about $84 an hour in lifestyle centers, compared to $58 an hour at malls. They visit the same number of retailers, but they spend less time per visit: 56 minutes, as opposed to 76 minutes. The contemporary time-stressed consumer finds real value in being able to get what they want and get out quickly. This flies in the face of age-old retailing wisdom that says if people spend more time in a retail environment, they will spend more money. It also contradicts the rhetoric of lifestyle-center promoters who say that they are developing centers of community where people can gather day and night to enjoy unique, urbane places. The main attraction for shoppers, though, is that they can use these places like a real-world Internet that offers instant gratification.

There's no reason, of course, why a shopping center can't be both a pleasant place to linger and an efficient place to shop. Lifestyle centers offer consumers more freedom and flexibility than malls. It is up to those who design these properties, along with those who design the stores and merchandise them, to make places where people will want to spend more time.

Each lifestyle center claims to be unique, despite offering a familiar lineup of stores, so architects should benefit from greater opportunity to explore local traditions or express community values. Yet, aside from some very superficial regional differences in iconography--Wild West in Nevada, Mediterranean in Florida, or Ye Olde in Massachusetts--lifestyle centers nationwide resemble each other just as much as malls do. A big reason is that nearly all of these properties are molded by the same lifestyle: one that boasts above-average income, is footloose, and more influenced by magazines and television than by local factors.

There are a handful of exceptions. The Lab, located in a converted factory building in Costa Mesa, California, opened in 1993 and is often cited as a pioneering center. It remains atypical in courting young people as customers, and its edgy design features artfully broken pavement, weedy plants, and other markers of apparent abandonment that affirm its self-proclaimed ambition to be "the anti-mall." This aesthetic is echoed across the street at The Camp, whose angular, metal-clad buildings and an irregular plan evoke the sense of adventure shared by the center's sports-oriented retail tenants. But most lifestyle centers are aggressively genteel in their style, promising a shopping environment undisturbed by teenagers.

The traditional look of lifestyle centers means that they are far easier to plug into New Urbanist planning schemes than are inward-facing malls. Increasingly, developers are adding mixed-use components to these projects as later phases, or building apartments and offices above street-level retail shops. For instance, Crocker Park, in Westlake, Ohio, west of Cleveland, is currently operating as a 250,000-square-foot lifestyle center, with more than 60 stores and a dozen restaurants, all housed in buildings that share a watered-down Beaux-Arts aesthetic. But plans call for the development to grow to 1.7 million square feet, doubling its retail component and adding 250,000 square feet of offices and 900,000 square feet of houses and apartments. The premise, though largely untested, is that if you build the town center, then young professionals, boomer empty nesters, and others will arrive to create the town.

There's no question that lifestyle centers look more like main streets, frontier towns, and village greens than traditional shopping malls did. Architects are becoming increasingly adept at making three or four big boxes look like several dozen smaller ones. And while malls often sought to replace the old urban downtown, lifestyle centers typically seek a cozy, small-town feel. This is an easier kind of urbanism to achieve and one that may be needed in many exurban areas that grew rapidly without any centers of civic or commercial life. Still, as lifestyle centers become ubiquitous, there will be many cases where they threaten real examples of the hometown American urbanism they strive so hard to emulate.

For the moment, the lifestyle center is not necessarily a problem or a solution. It is little more than a winning retail development formula--one that solves problems for developers and tenants, and saves time for consumers. As long as its success is judged solely on sales, though, such a development can never be a real place, let alone a town center. Nobody can spend $84 an hour forever.

Thomas Hine is the author of I Want That! How We All Became Shoppers and The Rise and Fall of the American Teenager, among other books. He was architecture critic for The Philadelphia Inquirer from 1973 to 1996.

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## venture

Seems like a pretty typical layout for an area that is centered around a lifestyle center (which is where the cinema is). It will definitely bring a lot of new companies to Norman. Some impact to existing businesses, but not many - BB&B being one relocating from Ed Noble Parkway.

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## traxx

dirtypop,

I do know what a lifestyle center is and it's more than a couple of strip malls facing each other.  It can be a lot more.

It's something like this:

http://personal.denison.edu/~anderso...TownCenter.jpg

or this:

http://esterofl.org/images/developer/tuscanypark.jpg

If it were just a couple of strip malls facing each other then why not just call it that instead of a lifestyle center.  Lifestyle centers are supposed to be centered around pedestians not cars.  In the above pdf files I see parking in the center of whats supposed to be the lifestyle center.  Lifestyle centers have a courtyard with places of interest for foot traffic like fountains, benches, patios and out door cafes.   

If a lifestyle center is going to be defined as just strip malls facing each other then Norman already has some:  The shops in front of the East side Wal-mart and the shopping center at Robinson & 36th Ave NW.  As nice as the the shopping center on Robinson is I still expect far more from a lifestyle center.

Maybe I'll change my tune once it's built and I see it.  Maybe it'll still be good.

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## BFizzy

Every "lifestyle center" that I have been to, including The Shops at Legacy, The Woodlands Market Place, Southlake Town Square, and others, have all had parking in the streets between the shops.  They have also all had "big box" stores in close proximity to the lifestyle center.  

UNP is going to have parks, trails, water features, landscaping, etc. that all the other lifestyle centers have.  It may not have all the stores that everyone is hoping for, but that won't be because the developers didn't try to get them.  Ultimately, it is up to the retailer whether or not they come.  

Hopefully, the UNP will land some retailers that are new to Oklahoma, but at the very least, it will land retailors that are new to Norman.

----------


## traxx

Legends in Kansas City doesn't have parking between the shops.  And as far as retailers that are new to Norman:  TJ Maxx, Office Depot, Cicuit City?  C'mon.  As if there isn't a Ross, Office Max and Best Buy just down the street.  And Kohls?  True Norman doesn't have one but when there's one just ten minutes up the road and Kohls is subpar anyway.

I'm all for the above mentioned stores having competition in Norman but not at UNP.  Not after what it was built up to be.  And I know you can't force companies into your development but I also think they just went after what was easy in order to fill up the space quickly.  

I think we were sold a bogus bill of goods as consumers.  We were fed high talking propaganda and I for one bought it to a certain extent.  Look at what it was billed as when it was first made public and looked at what it's turning out to be.  

Even if they would put in mall type stores such as American Eagle instead of the usual strip mall fair that would be something.  It doesn't have to be stores that are completely unique to Oklahoma.

I know you guys are just trying to be positive but after what happened to lower (lesser) Bricktown I just can't hold out the same hope.  Don't be suprised when you see coming to UNP Cingular, a nail salon, Gamestop, Payday Loans and Big Lots.

----------


## BFizzy

I'm not sure what you mean by "being fed high talking propaganda" since the very first sales pitch included SuperTarget as the main anchor.  From day one, the plans included  big box stores and a town center.  I don't know if there is enough upscale retail out there to fill up 1.5 million sq ft.  

I'm looking forward to not having to drive to north OKC or Edmond for Qdoba, Pei Wei, DSW, SuperTarget, and probably Banana Republic, J. Crew, etc.  

Maybe I am being optimistic, but I also think I had realistic expectations from the inception.

----------


## gamecock

I agree...there are too many people out there with unrealistic expectations...the development was originally conceived as having multiple parts to it...the SuperTarget was the first component, and the second phase of stores were never "sold" as necessarily being new and upscale retailers...hopefully, those will arrive in the later phases when the development moves across the street, next to the new hotel and conference center.  So far I am satisfied with what has been done/is being done.  I, too, enjoy/will enjoy having SuperTarget, PeiWei, and Qdoba nearby.  I am also very impressed with the overall look of the development.  As "adverstised," everything is very well landscaped, and the buildings look much better than the average "strip-mall" construction.  Indeed, some friends who were visiting from the Washington DC-area recently remarked that our SuperTarget was the nicest one they had ever seen (and that area of the country certainly has its fair share of upscale shopping areas).  As others have already suggested, more patience is needed.

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## venture

Lifestyle center with parking along the "main street" area...

J. Preston Levis Commons

Would like to see the water/lake feature in this one that is under construction by General Growth Properties...who owns Sooner Mall and Quail Springs....

General Growth Properties (GGP)

I echo BFizzy...the less I have to travel north the better. Of course that isn't entirely good for OKC either, but having strong and growing suburbs is always a good thing. Now all we need is that idea for a massive lake on the south side of Norman to happen and this place will almost be perfect.  :Wink:

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## MikeLucky

you can't get the big boys to commit until you can provide some foot traffic..... They aren't going to build their exclusive stores in field and hope the customers come.....  '

How hard is that to figure out...  It's almost like some of you want it to fail to have something to whine about.....

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## ouguy23

I concur!




> you can't get the big boys to commit until you can provide some foot traffic..... They aren't going to build their exclusive stores in field and hope the customers come.....  '
> 
> How hard is that to figure out...  It's almost like some of you want it to fail to have something to whine about.....

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## Easy180

> you can't get the big boys to commit until you can provide some foot traffic..... They aren't going to build their exclusive stores in field and hope the customers come.....  '
> 
> How hard is that to figure out...  *It's almost like some of you want it to fail to have something to whine about*.....


See also the 9 million threads whining about Lower Bricktown....Same mentality

Would be very encouraging if some kind of exciting announcement came out soon

One big catch would turn this thread completely around

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## traxx

Alright, alright, lay off.  I give.  You all have convinced me.  I'm so excited to not have to drive to OKC for Office Depot.  I can't tell you how long I've been harboring that sentiment.  FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!  Norman has it's own Office Depot.  Let's just throw up any old crap strip mall and just be glad that there's not green grass growing in that area any longer.

As far as the question of what I meant by propaganda...well when this first came to light a few years ago in a thread of a different title (not sure what it was called) it said it was going to be the second or third largest mall in the nation, then it was said it would be upperscale shopping now we've got Target and TJ Maxx.  Woo Hoo!

And yes, you can get the "Big Boys" to sign on without smaller stores filling up the space first.  That's why they call them anchors.

But all that's water under the bridge now.  I'm just excited to have TJ Max, seas of parking and I don't have to look at that pasture anymore.

----------


## MikeLucky

> Alright, alright, lay off.  I give.  You all have convinced me.  I'm so excited to not have to drive to OKC for Office Depot.  I can't tell you how long I've been harboring that sentiment.  FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!  Norman has it's own Office Depot.  Let's just throw up any old crap strip mall and just be glad that there's not green grass growing in that area any longer.
> 
> As far as the question of what I meant by propaganda...well when this first came to light a few years ago in a thread of a different title (not sure what it was called) it said it was going to be the second or third largest mall in the nation, then it was said it would be upperscale shopping now we've got Target and TJ Maxx.  Woo Hoo!
> 
> And yes, you can get the "Big Boys" to sign on without smaller stores filling up the space first.  That's why they call them anchors.
> 
> But all that's water under the bridge now.  I'm just excited to have TJ Max, seas of parking and I don't have to look at that pasture anymore.


so obviously your assumption is that there is NO POSSIBILITY of anything better than TJ Maxx and Office Depot going up in UNP.

Do you know something, or are you just indulging in your half empty glass of milk while you cry about the other half that is spilt?

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## soonerliberal

Have you naysayers seen the SuperTarget or the new construction going up?  It is remarkable architecture with beautiful landscaping.  The "lifestyle center" part will not even be started for at least a year.  Just wait.  It will be worth it.

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## venture

Its almost as if people expected the whole thing to be a lifestyle center...sigh.

People seem to forget that nearly every mall, you have your Payless Shoes or other low end store. Why? It drives more foot traffic...which should increase overall customers going into the higher end stores.

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## CuatrodeMayo

> Have you naysayers seen the SuperTarget or the new construction going up? It is remarkable architecture with beautiful landscaping. The "lifestyle center" part will not even be started for at least a year. Just wait. It will be worth it.


It's...a...SuperTarget, a big box with nice brick, not the Sidney Opera House.

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## soonerliberal

> It's...a...SuperTarget, a big box with nice brick, not the Sidney Opera House.


My point is that people on this very forum complain excessively about there being too much concrete and stucco and not enough trees and brick in suburban developments and then complain about something else when we get a nice development that has the very same aspects they were complaining about not having!

http://soonerinvestment.com/pdf_flye...chure-0607.pdf
Look at the bottom of page 2.  The elevation of the lifestyle center part looks pretty nice to me.

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## traxx

> Do you know something, or are you just indulging in your half empty glass of milk while you cry about the other half that is spilt?


I told ya.  You guys can stop using me as a whipping boy.  I've seen the light.  The brickwork and landscaping they're going to put up in front of Office Depot is going to make the Sydney Opera house look like a Port-A-Potty.  My glass is all the way full.  It's even overflowing.  My cup runneth over - TJ Maxx, Office Depot and Circuit City all in one place - I can hardly contain myself!

Death to all whiners!!!  Especially those who complain about Lower Bricktown.  Who cares if it looks just like the stores at Memorial and Penn.  Those stores are a great template that should be used for any development, anywhere.

Count me as on board with the rest of you guys.  I don't wanna be the lone dissenter.  It's lonely out here.  **sniff, sniff, cry**  As the saying goes "A million monkeys can't be wrong."

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## CuatrodeMayo

Trees and brick do not good architecture make.  That SuperTarget is no different from any other.

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## Superhyper

Agreed, though I do think it is nice looking. To be honest I'm surprised the new target has done as well as it has. 24th and Robinson seemed like a kinda out-of-the-way place to me, but it seems to have been a hit! Even though it is further from me than the old one was...

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## ouguy23

I think it is nice looking as well and I think that the whole development looking like that is even better.  Once the whole project is put together, then it will look awesome.  People seem to be too jaded on this forum sometimes and you should give yourself a big hug every once in awhile.

----------


## Jeopardude

> I told ya.  You guys can stop using me as a whipping boy.  I've seen the light.  The brickwork and landscaping they're going to put up in front of Office Depot is going to make the Sydney Opera house look like a Port-A-Potty.  My glass is all the way full.  It's even overflowing.  My cup runneth over - TJ Maxx, Office Depot and Circuit City all in one place - I can hardly contain myself!
> 
> Death to all whiners!!!  Especially those who complain about Lower Bricktown.  Who cares if it looks just like the stores at Memorial and Penn.  Those stores are a great template that should be used for any development, anywhere.
> 
> Count me as on board with the rest of you guys.  I don't wanna be the lone dissenter.  It's lonely out here.  **sniff, sniff, cry**  As the saying goes "A million monkeys can't be wrong."


I too have learned to stop worrying and love the bomb. I too love subsidized corporate big boxes! I love chain stores at the expense of locally owned businesses. Ain't life grand?

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## ouguy23

Man i really love how businesses continue to come to norman and create jobs for the people here. I too love that people are investing in our community and making things happen as opposed to other people. Ain't life grand!

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## traxx

> Man i really love how businesses continue to come to norman and create jobs for the people here. I too love that people are investing in our community and making things happen as opposed to other people. Ain't life grand!


There's growth and then there's smart growth.

Larger population numbers are generally good for a large city especially if the numbers increase and the city is growing.  But, you wouldn't want to bring in all the gang members, rapists, sex predators, drug dealers, people who refuse to get a job and work or anyone else who creates a strain on society, just to swell you population numbers.  You want those with original ideas, who think outside the box, who work hard and are good members of the community.  Not those that bleed the community and then leave it when its only an empty shell.

The same goes here.

----------


## adaniel

> There's growth and then there's smart growth.
> 
> Larger population numbers are generally good for a large city especially if the numbers increase and the city is growing.  But, you wouldn't want to bring in all the gang members, rapists, sex predators, drug dealers, people who refuse to get a job and work or anyone else who creates a strain on society, just to swell you population numbers.  You want those with original ideas, who think outside the box, who work hard and are good members of the community.  Not those that bleed the community and then leave it when its only an empty shell.
> 
> The same goes here.


So its better to just let Norman's sales tax base to go to OKC and Moore? 

I'm  like a lot of others that I don't understand the blantant negativity towards this project when less than 25 percent of it has even been built or been anounnced. 

The actual lifestyle center that's been so trumped up hasn't even had the utilites installed for it and people are already chalking this up as a "disappontment." Really? I think people need to seriously wait a few years because I think this is going to be a great project when completely done, which probably won't be for at least a decade. And yes, is still a suburban style shopping center, and no, its not something you will see in the middle of Mannhattan or San fran. But it does have quality design implemented into it that helps it look a lot better than some of the other run-of-the mill big box corridors. Take it for what its worth; I seriously doubt most people will not shop there because they don't like the brick motiff or the landscaping or they feel its too "suburban." And I think the "smart growth" you allude to would have meant a whole bunch of historic buildings in downtown or campus corner would have been bulldozed to make room . 

I for one am glad that Norman finally recoginzes that its grown large enough to support just Sooner Mall and Holiday Inn.

----------


## oudirtypop

> There's growth and then there's smart growth.
> 
> Larger population numbers are generally good for a large city especially if the numbers increase and the city is growing.  But, you wouldn't want to bring in all the gang members, rapists, sex predators, drug dealers, people who refuse to get a job and work or anyone else who creates a strain on society, just to swell you population numbers.  You want those with original ideas, who think outside the box, who work hard and are good members of the community.  Not those that bleed the community and then leave it when its only an empty shell.
> 
> The same goes here.


Traxx,

Can you tell me where the original ideas are at? I haven't see anything small and new in year. Oh, wait, lets forget how much of a sucess Othello's on ed noble was! 

If you want to live in a small town with small town ideas, go to noble or newcastle. Norman is a city of over 100k people. In order for a city to continue to grow, you have to grow smart. i will agree with that. But, the smart factors of what they are doing here are the 4x normal landscaping and brick budgets, the lifestyle center, when started and completed will be like nothing in Oklahoma. People complain about seeing parking lots, but how can you build 2 million square feet of shopping without somewhere for those people to park.

You might also forget that as norman has grown in the last 20 years, with growth you have to have more schools, more fireman, policeman, more city crews, trash trucks, etc. In 10 years, this highly concentrated area of shopping will be producing so much sales tax revenue, that it will help the city continue to grow. Also, the school system will recieve so much money from the property taxes, that we wont be firing teachers or barely passing bonds to build new schools.

That sounds like a smart decision to me. And for those of us that are excited about this project, why dont the people that dont have anything positive to say, go shop elsewhere. Its going to be quite funny, why you drive to circuit city to buy a tv and spend that money and walk out with a weight on your shoulders because you were such a hypocrite, now you are one of those people, one of the people that spent money at the new "big box" wanna be sydney opera house!

 :Texas Sucks:   :Texas-Sucks2:

----------


## oudirtypop

> There's growth and then there's smart growth.
> 
> Larger population numbers are generally good for a large city especially if the numbers increase and the city is growing.  But, you wouldn't want to bring in all the gang members, rapists, sex predators, drug dealers, people who refuse to get a job and work or anyone else who creates a strain on society, just to swell you population numbers.  You want those with original ideas, who think outside the box, who work hard and are good members of the community.  Not those that bleed the community and then leave it when its only an empty shell.
> 
> The same goes here.


I forgot Traxx, besides TJ Maxx being a bunch of rapists and drug dealers, whose to say that these people who work there aren't good members of the community? I bet that is what you think about Sams Club and Walmart, but you are quick to forget the thousands of dollars they send out to the local community each year. 

I can see it now, all you anti-big box people would be in Heaven! Death to the man! Shop at your local hometown IGA store and get Fred to cut your meat fresh off the cow. Now thats service! Edna will even bag your grocieries in those cute brown paper sacks for you. If you want, you can even bring back the brown paper sacks for reuse. Thats environmental friendly you know. Stop on the bread isle while you are here for your local grown farm fresh bread and eggs.

Well, i gotta run, i need to stop at the big purple box to look at a dvd player then head over to the tan and blue box behind it to get some groceries, then head back to my house and stop on the way at the big orange box to get some home repair items, and then get gas at little box on each corner.

 :Texas-Sucks2:   :Texas Sucks:

----------


## traxx

> I forgot Traxx, besides TJ Maxx being a bunch of rapists and drug dealers, whose to say that these people who work there aren't good members of the community? I bet that is what you think about Sams Club and Walmart, but you are quick to forget the thousands of dollars they send out to the local community each year. 
> 
> I can see it now, all you anti-big box people would be in Heaven! Death to the man! Shop at your local hometown IGA store and get Fred to cut your meat fresh off the cow. Now thats service! Edna will even bag your grocieries in those cute brown paper sacks for you. If you want, you can even bring back the brown paper sacks for reuse. Thats environmental friendly you know. Stop on the bread isle while you are here for your local grown farm fresh bread and eggs.
> 
> Well, i gotta run, i need to stop at the big purple box to look at a dvd player then head over to the tan and blue box behind it to get some groceries, then head back to my house and stop on the way at the big orange box to get some home repair items, and then get gas at little box on each corner.



It was an allegory.  Apparently lost on you.  

I wasn't saying that a city shouldn't grow but that when it grows it should do so with a plan.  Don't build something just because there's undeveloped land there and you think there needs to be another Office Depot because there just aren't enough stores around to buy a printer.

If you're going to develop an area, think what you can do to make it different and original.  What stores can you get to come in that are new to the area?

Growth for the sake of growth is stupid.  But growth that actually brings added value is good.

But I don't know why you're getting mad at me, I already said that I'd seen the light and you guys had converted me.  This is going to be the greatest shopping center since Ed Noble Pkwy.

Now leave me alone so I can go see Edna at the IGA and then go home to watch Matlock reruns. :053:

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## kielaaron

The full-on development proposals for UTC & LP landed on my desk a couple of weeks ago, and I think that everyone should be satisfied with the tenant mix once all of the retailers are in place.  Just like modern malls have wings associated with different types of stores, this large development is laid out just the same.  There's a place for everyone at UTC & LP.  I'm a little disappointed in the overall architectural elements for the development, as they look like an Oklahoma version of the lifestyle centers I've been visiting all over the country.

If I could compare what I saw in the packet of information to another successful project, I'd direct you guys to research Market Street in The Woodlands, TX, by a group called Trademark Property - this is probably the best lifestyle center I've been to thusfar.

This, of course, will be no South Coast Plaza or Northpark Center but should work well for Norman nonetheless.  I just wish Sooner Investments would slip a few more images and tenant listings to the public.

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## Nixon7

I saw signs for TJ MAx, Kohls, and Petco today.  Can we not get the Banana Republic type stores?  I guess we will have to wait, (and hope) that they come to the Oklahoma Factory Shoppes in a few years.

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## brianinok

I don't know what is so hard for people to understand.  They are building the outlying stores right now.  Virtually every mall or lifestyle center in the country has outlying stores like the ones this one will have.  The lifestyle center is in a later phase and will have mall-type stores.

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## soonerliberal

> I don't know what is so hard for people to understand.  They are building the outlying stores right now.  Virtually every mall or lifestyle center in the country has outlying stores like the ones this one will have.  The lifestyle center is in a later phase and will have mall-type stores.


THANK YOU.

I just don't understand how it is so difficult for some people to get through their heads that what we see now is less than a quarter of the first part of the master plan.  *The upscale lifestyle center is still grass and trees!*  Construction has NOT been started yet.  Look at *any* upscale shopping district and you will see there are other shopping opportunities that accompany the upscale part.  Have some patience people.

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## CCOKC

If this goes as fast as the first phase it really won't be that long.  I drove by this morning at 7 and then again about 7 this evening and it had changed in 12 hours.  It looks as though the first stores will be open pretty soon.

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## traxx

> I don't know what is so hard for people to understand. They are building the outlying stores right now. Virtually every mall or lifestyle center in the country has outlying stores like the ones this one will have. The lifestyle center is in a later phase and will have mall-type stores.





> THANK YOU.
> 
> I just don't understand how it is so difficult for some people to get through their heads that what we see now is less than a quarter of the first part of the master plan.  *The upscale lifestyle center is still grass and trees!*  Construction has NOT been started yet.  Look at *any* upscale shopping district and you will see there are other shopping opportunities that accompany the upscale part.  Have some patience people.


I don't understand why some people can't see that this is only the first part.  Just look at any shopping center and you'll see that the upscale stores are accompanied by crappy stores you can find in any old strip mall.  :Wink:

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## Easy180

Kwerstion I have is...What's up with having another Kohl's 5 minutes south of the one in Moore?

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## venture

Same argument can be made for JC Penny...which moved further south into Moore. You have one in Sooner Mall.  I think the general belief is that with the rate Norman is growing, it will sustain itself. With fuel prices as high as they are...people will become less likely to drive further up north. Personally, I drive to the city to go to work each day. If I had my choice, I would stay in Norman. Otherwise...I'm rarely in the City more than a couple times a month.

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## Easy180

Guess so venture...Just thought it weird they would put another that close is all

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## flintysooner

The Norman Transcript - University North Park ahead of schedule

Published: October 03, 2007 12:37 am 

University North Park ahead of schedule
By Carol Cole-Frowe
Transcript Staff Writer

The $54.7 million University North Park Tax Increment Financing District is off and running, Norman city councilmembers heard at their Tuesday study session.

“It’s a strong start coming out of the gates,” said City Manager Steve Lewis, who managed several TIF districts in Lee’s Summit, Mo., where he previously was city administrator. “It’s ahead of projections.”

Assistant City Attorney Kathryn Walker told councilmembers, “with the rate of growth going on out there, we should see some impressive numbers.” Walker presented the quarterly update requested by the council.

“The entire west side is spoken for,” Walker said of the first phase of construction, designed to drive traffic. “They have potential tenants for every space over there. … It is going quicker than anticipated.”

One of those tenants opens today, with a Kohl’s ribbon cutting at 7 a.m.

“Now my wife and daughter can shop in Norman instead of Moore,” said Ward 2 councilmember Richard Stawicki after the meeting.

The council will consider Development Agreement No. 3 at its Oct. 9 regular meeting and is projecting issuance of $15 to $20 million in bond financing in December.

“We think the revenue streams being shown right now will service the debt,” said Jeff Bryant, city attorney.

The TIF funds for public improvements include $13.475 million for initial project costs and roadway improvements; $8.25 million for Legacy Park, landscaping and Legacy Trail; conference center and cultural facilities, $16.5 million; Lifestyle Center, $8.25 million; and economic development, $8.25 million.

Fifty percent of the ad valorem dollars over the original base amount go into the UNP TIF District No. 2 coffers, with 60 percent of sales tax increases going toward the TIF.

Ad valorem taxes will be measured against the base calendar year of 2006, when the undeveloped district was valued at $7.5 million, which included two parcels purchased by developers from the University of Oklahoma Foundation.

In calendar year 2007, the same property is projected to be worth more than $21 million. Projections for 2008 and 2009 for already-permitted buildings on the west side would grow the property values to $102 million, an estimate that doesn’t include contents.

Ad valorem tax from 2007 is projected at $165,112, with $82,556 going to the UNP TIF. The 2008-2009 projections for ad valorem tax are $1.16 million, with $580,585 going to the TIF.

Sales tax for fiscal year 2007 in the UNP TIF District totaled $1.6 million. Because Super Target moved from another Norman location, the store’s previous sales tax revenues were subtracted and the amount was adjusted down to $832,082. Of that, $499,249 or 60 percent would go to the TIF and $332,833 or 40 percent would go to the general fund.

Super Target opened a year ago, with Kohl’s opening today.

John Q. Hammons broke ground for a $50 million Embassy Suites Hotel/Conference Center on Feb. 28. Construction on the 10-story hotel is up to the seventh floor. Conference center construction began recently.

Retail outlets or restaurants announced so far for the first phase include Pei Wei Asian Bistro, AT&T, T-Mobile, Petco, Circuit City, Office Depot, Dress Barn, Maurice’s, Rack Room Shoes and TJ Maxx.

The second phase is planned to include the Lifestyle Center and would include an upscale shopping element that was the focus of the Citizens TIF Advisory Group that evaluated the project before council approved it.

Ward 1 councilmember Bob Thompson expressed concern that the city might just be “pushing dollars around.”

“That’s the elephant in the room,” Thompson said.

Ward 7 councilmember Doug Cubberley called some of that discussion “premature.”

“Let’s get a year of data in,” Cubberley said. “Are we making progress or are we treading water? … This has always been a stepped process. This is coming and it’s coming a lot faster than anyone envisioned. People have to have patience.”

Lewis said the city might consider hiring outside professionals to examine the extent of cannibalization and effects the district has on the city’s tax base.

Carol Cole-Frowe 366-3538 ccole@normantranscript.com

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## Easy180

Now my wife and daughter can shop in Norman instead of Moore, said Ward 2 councilmember Richard Stawicki after the meeting.

Wow...What a huge relief for Norman residents....Living in Moore I am so sick and tired of driving for upwards of 5 minutes to shop in Norman

Congratulations Mrs Stawicki!!

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## zrfdude

I think that comment was more about keeping tax dollars instead of giving them to another city, but I could be wrong; working in retail in Quail Springs, I know (as they are sure to let me know) the pain of Edmondites who have to drive _ALL_ the way down to Quail to shop.

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## jbrown84

That is correct.  It's all about tax dollars.

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## Easy180

> That is correct.  It's all about tax dollars.


Was just a joke fellas

----------


## metro

*University Town Center readies for Christmas*

By Trisha Evans
Business Writer

NORMAN — Residents here won't have to go far to find items on their friends' and families' wish lists this Christmas.
The city's newest shopping center, University Town Center, is filling up with tenants as retailers prepare to open in time for Santa.

More than a dozen stores are hoping to open their doors in time for holiday shopping, said developer Brad Goodwin.

"Their goal is, as for all retailers, is to be open by Christmas,” Goodwin said. "In the next 30 to 60 days that whole area is really going to open up.”

Kohl's and T.J. Maxx opened earlier this month. 

Dress Barn, Maurices, Rack Room Shoes, Petco, Circuit City and Office Depot are expected to open before Christmas. Most will open by the end of November, he said.

To the north of SuperTarget, several smaller stores — T-Mobile, Sally Beauty Supply, Sports Clips, Motherhood, Great Clips and AT&T Wireless — also are expected to open by the end of November, Goodwin said.

"We're really surprised to be ahead of schedule,” he said.

Other businesses scheduled to open soon include: Vintage Stock, Citi Financial, Allure Nail Salon, a hair salon for children called Snip-its, and Westies Shoes.

"Most everything you see is already leased,” Goodwin said.

Athletic Village will open in February, and Qdoba Mexican Grill will open in May.

However, the development is far from finished. University Town Center's master plan calls for 2.5 million square feet of new retail space, and the shopping center is only in the first of six phases, said Stanton Nelson, partner and spokesman for the University Town Center LLC.

"I think the exciting part for us is we're starting to work on the lifestyle center portion of the development,” Nelson said. "When you look at what's going to separate this project from any other is  the lifestyle center.”

Nelson said the shopping center will be the first pure lifestyle center in the state, and he compared it to The Plaza in Kansas City.

"It's an outdoor pedestrian mall, basically,” Nelson said. "It will have a real Main Street feel.”

He said there are still a couple steps before construction can begin on Legacy Park, an 8- to -10-acre public park that's part of the project. A water feature, more than an acre large, will create an appealing site for restaurants around the water, Nelson said. 

The first restaurant, Pei Wei, is expected to open sometime near the end of the year. Goodwin said Cheddar's, Mimi's and Logan's Steakhouse have signed contracts, but construction for those hasn't started yet.

The City of Norman estimates it will derive $1.25 million in tax revenue from the center for fiscal year 2007, which began July 1.





Work continues Tuesday on University Town Center, NW 24 near Robinson and Interstate 35 in Norman. by STEVE SISNEY, THE OKLAHOMAN

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## Superhyper

Like the Plaza? That would exciting, I do love the Plaza. Somehow I don't see us getting that level of retailers though. Clothing places like Standard Style and Armani Exchange would be amazing, but they've been hesitant to move out here so far.

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## BG918

^ My guess is it would be retailers similar to what is already present in Quail Creek and Penn Square, maybe a couple new ones to Oklahoma.  I doubt it's anything TOO upscale.  I think if you were an upscale retailer you would want something more unique, like Campus Corner.  I'd much rather see those types of stores there or in downtown rather than in UNP.  

I could definitely see this destroying Sooner Mall though if their stores bail for the new lifestyle center.  Their site plan shows space for three department stores, one of which could be a new Dillard's.  Losing Dillard's would be a big blow to that mall.  I'd rather Norman have one "mall" though and that would be UNP.  Redevelop the Sooner Mall site and concentrate more upscale and/or local retail in areas like Brookhaven, downtown/Main, and Campus Corner.

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## Town Crier

> Guess so venture...Just thought it weird they would put another that close is all


No more strange than 2 Super Wal Marts within 3 miles of each other.

----------


## dismayed

I'm surprised how negative folks are on this project.  There are big names working it... let's hold out, I think it's really going to happen.

Norman doesn't have a Macy's, so hopefully it will be going into UNP.  Other than that, there are several department stores that are common in the region but not in OKC, such as Sak's, Mervyn's, and Nordstrom.  Hopefully we will get one or all of them.

----------


## oudirtypop

I dont disagree with what you mentioned, except with mervyns. There isn't one of those anywhere within 500 miles of here if not further. That place sucks anyway.

For the sake of my checkbook,  i hope saks or nordstroms doesnt come here. my wife will have a hey day

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## jbrown84

Here's one that they have in Wichita that is very upscale and _very_ out of place in their dumpy mall.

http://www.vonmaur.com/Default.aspx?PageID=48

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## dismayed

There used to be a Mervyn's in Tulsa.  Not sure if it is still there.

Checked their website, looks like it went out of business.  

There's also one in Austin, TX.

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## Superhyper

The Mervyn's in Tulsa is now an empty shell of a buildings. Not that anyone is terribly sad about that.

----------


## pottstonya

I think this will be a nice area  but I hope the shops on Ed Noble survive, not to mention the mall....

----------


## BFizzy

This link contains TIF information and renderings of the Embassy Suites and Legacy Park:

http://www.ci.norman.ok.us/pdf_files...rthParkTIF.pdf

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## Superhyper

Just an update: University Park was dead useful on Black Friday. If only circuit city had been open, I could've done all my shopping in one place!

----------


## venture

I'm with Hyper...I did quite a bit of my Black Friday shopping at UNP. Kohl's was busy, but not overly packed. All the other stores flowed pretty well also.  It is going to be so nice once everything is completed and more stores are in there. It will definitely be my primary shopping stop - no more need to drive to the City.

I think the stores at Ed Noble should be okay. There aren't going to be any duplicate stores at UNP. I definitely think Sooner Mall may see an impact though. However, there is a trend to get away from the old standard mall designs. I personally would not be hurt to see the mall close and land redeveloped into a business park.

----------


## BG918

Yeah I also would like to see the stores inside Sooner Mall just get absorbed by the lifestyle center portion of UNP.  Then raze the mall and build a combination of office buildings and new dense residential.  Build the more upscale and local/regional retail in downtown or Campus Corner.  Norman then has two major retail zones: UNP by I-35 and central Norman along Main and Boyd.

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## jbrown84

Interestingly, I heard from a source that American Eagle plans to have a store in the lifestyle center _in addition_ to Sooner Mall, which is one of it's highest volume stores in Oklahoma.

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## Superhyper

Really? That seems like a bit of overkill. Maybe it'll lead to other clothing stores moving in through. Preferably _better_ ones.....

----------


## SpectralMourning

> Really? That seems like a bit of overkill. Maybe it'll lead to other clothing stores moving in through. Preferably _better_ ones.....


I like AE, though it may be a bit expensive sometimes, but not as much as others.  It's still nice either way.

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## jbrown84

It's really no different than Bath & Body having a store in Quail Springs and one across Memorial in front of Old Navy.

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## jirwin1981

does anyone know the timeline for the phase that will include the water feature with the restaurants and boutique shopping area?

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## Dekoung

And does anyone know specifically what"upscale" stores and restaurants are signed up?  I keep hearing stores like Nordstroms, Saks etc.  Give me a break.  The demographics in this region do not justify putting in that type of store.  There is no Nordstroms in OK and I would think OKC would be the priority over University Park.  The only Saks in OK is Tulsa and it has been rumored for years they would like to pull out after their long term lease is up.  If Saks is not happy in Tulsa they would not be happy in Norman.  So what upscale stores do you all realistically think might come here?

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## ouguy23

> And does anyone know specifically what"upscale" stores and restaurants are signed up?  I keep hearing stores like Nordstroms, Saks etc.  Give me a break.  The demographics in this region do not justify putting in that type of store.  There is no Nordstroms in OK and I would think OKC would be the priority over University Park.  The only Saks in OK is Tulsa and it has been rumored for years they would like to pull out after their long term lease is up.  If Saks is not happy in Tulsa they would not be happy in Norman.  So what upscale stores do you all realistically think might come here?


Wow, you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or something?!!! No need to be a Debbie Downer dude, lol.

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## venture

LOL. I think some people forget all those nice college kids with their parent's credit card. They aren't paying for that new BMW or Land Rover they are driving around themselves. 

Also...if a brand doesn't have any locations in about 150 miles - that will help UNP's cause. I think the one big thing we are waiting on, at least the upscale retailers are waiting on, is to see how much foot traffic there will be. When we get into the mode where you see people walking from store to store and the parking lots getting full - then we'll see the big guys jump on.

Of course it wouldn't hurt if retailers in Sooner Mall decided that they would move. Granted GGP would have a stink about it, but that plot of land would make a really nice business park.

----------


## Turanacus

this sounds great, maybe they'll put in some really really cool stores like Game Xchange, Gordman's, or Payless Shoes.  I always thought this center was going to be upscale stores but it sucks ! ! ! same ol poop as everywhere else in okc.

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## soonerkev

Turnacus:  The phase being built right now is not supposed to be upscale.  The upscale portion will be located in the lifestyle center that will be built on the east side of 24th, adjacent to the new John Q Hammonds hotel.

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## oudirtypop

> this sounds great, maybe they'll put in some really really cool stores like Game Xchange, Gordman's, or Payless Shoes.  I always thought this center was going to be upscale stores but it sucks ! ! ! same ol poop as everywhere else in okc.


I dont understand people like you Turanacus...i guess it is just ignorance. You may not know that this is just the beginning. What you thus far has always been planned to be those stores and never rumored to be more than that. The next phase is the lifestyle mall which they havent even broken ground on yet. That will be the part that has the upscale stores and not the payless or game xchange.

It might help for you to get informed on something before you bash it. It just makes you look like you dont know what you are talking about, as in this case, you dont.

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## oudirtypop

> does anyone know the timeline for the phase that will include the water feature with the restaurants and boutique shopping area?


The water phase is Phase three i believe and the boutique shops are phase four. they are currently working on phase 3 and phase four i think is planned to open in fall of 2009. This is just what i remember reading in the daily oklahoman.

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## venture

I think people need to realize that what is there now, is the initial every day stuff to get people out there. Since it is pretty well established, it will make for a much easier launch for the lifestyle center stores. If I were to take a stab at some of the stores we will see in there, the list would reflect some of what is at Penn Square...

Coach, Sunglass Hut, Yankee Candle, Banana Republic, Eddie Bauer, Express, J Crew, Ann Taylor, Bombay, pick a bookstore, Chico's, Christopher and Banks, Coldwater, Lane Bryant, New York & Co, Starbucks (not upscale, but duh lol), Talbots, blah blah blah. 

I'm sure there are others that are better choices, but that would be my guess on who you will see in most of the buildings.

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## oudirtypop

http://soonerinvestment.com/pdf_flye...an_dp-0807.pdf

Check this out and it will clarify a little bit about the general layout for everyone.

----------


## soonerliberal

> http://soonerinvestment.com/pdf_flye...an_dp-0807.pdf
> 
> Check this out and it will clarify a little bit about the general layout for everyone.


Also....

http://www.soonerinvestment.com/pdf_...chure-0607.pdf

$88,653 average household income within a 1 mile radius of the center

That's pretty good demographics...

----------


## Dekoung

> I think people need to realize that what is there now, is the initial every day stuff to get people out there. Since it is pretty well established, it will make for a much easier launch for the lifestyle center stores. If I were to take a stab at some of the stores we will see in there, the list would reflect some of what is at Penn Square...
> 
> Coach, Sunglass Hut, Yankee Candle, Banana Republic, Eddie Bauer, Express, J Crew, Ann Taylor, Bombay, pick a bookstore, Chico's, Christopher and Banks, Coldwater, Lane Bryant, New York & Co, Starbucks (not upscale, but duh lol), Talbots, blah blah blah. 
> 
> I'm sure there are others that are better choices, but that would be my guess on who you will see in most of the buildings.



I may be a DebbieDowner but these stores mentioned above are not my idea of upscale stores.  I thought the stores would be unique and these are not.  Same ole, same ole as in any decent mall.  I was told by a city development planner that I would be happy with the upscale area so hope I am but not holding my breath!  Naturally he declined to give me any hints.  Maybe that is because there are not that many great prospects who would sign on?  

Maybe Williams Sonoma since the CEO Lester is an OU grad and I would love to see WS in Norman.  So what stores have any of the rest of you have heard that are truly upscale?

Hey, I am just being realistic and not  with my Norman colored glasses on.  Excuse me if that does not work for you.   :Smile:

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## mheaton76

I heard Williams Sonoma would be a possibility as well...They definitely need to offer something different than the traditional retail fare if they want to go for a Utica Square style concept. We'll see how it pans out I guess...

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## venture

I'm not saying they are the upscale we want...what i'm saying is those are who you'll probably see most likely. We'll probably get some other upscale stuff mixed in with those typical crowd drawers.

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## oneforone

Relax people... your upscale will be in the OKC metro before you know it.

Many retailers are starting to take notice to the fact that we have several locations of most national chains. We are not a city that has only one two locations of a particular retailer. When every major retailer you can think of has three or four stores and planning more locations that speaks volumes about a city. 

I am willing bet by 2010 we will have 95&#37; of the retail stores Dallas and Kansas City has. By 2020, we will have everything every major city has across the country. 

We are on the map, the seeds are planted, now we just have to wait for the seeds to grow. As long as our government officials do not do something stupid, we will have one hell of a crop to harvest.

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## BFizzy

The latest plans for UNP show a 45,800sf "Specialty Foods" store:

http://cdx.xceligent.com/Attachments/696/1094696.pdf

The updated plans also show a third department store at the Town Center.

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## venture

Now if they would just make the theatre bigger so Hollywood can finally get replaced. Hollywood is in a nice spot for another hotel.  :Smile:

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## brenna

> I am willing bet by 2010 we will have 95% of the retail stores Dallas and Kansas City has.


I don't know about 95% in 2 more years, especially in regard to Dallas.

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## Jesseda

wow by the looks of the new plan, this thing is going to be huge i mena really huge, wow i can not wait, south moore is getting all these shops and a lifestyle center and down the road indian hills is turning into a fun kid and family activity area, now this huge i mean huge development is going in at norman, there is no need to ever drive to okc for any retail or dinning

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## venture

Pretty much. Once the new theatre opens in Moore, that is as far north as I will drive for "entertainment". I like Harkins and all...but Bricktown doesn't have anything for me that I can't get down here. I don't really bother with the local minor league teams, so they aren't a draw for me. Dining and retail though...yeah, no point to go north anymore.

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## redland

> Hollywood can finally get replaced.


I'll second that! The Hollywood (or Spotlight, as it is also known) is the most poorly managed and maintained movie theater I have ever experienced. I have not been there now for almost a year, opting instead to make the drive up to Harkins. However, when the Warren opens (only four miles north of the Norman city limits) I'll be heading there.

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## flintysooner

I do want to go to the Warren.  I think we'll continue going to Harkins.  We like to go down and maybe eat lunch at Nonna's and then watch a movie.  We just don't do it very often. 

We haven't been to Hollywood in a long time either.

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## metro

anyone have an updated pic or pics of UNP?

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## molarman

I have heard the Specialty Food store will be a Whole Foods Grocery Store.

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## Soonerman

I'd like to see Academy open up in UNP

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## ouguy23

I'd like to see a Dave and Busters open up in UNP

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## t3h_wookiee

Man a Whole Foods would be awesome!! Trader Joes would be even better.

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## jbrown84

> I'd like to see Academy open up in UNP


Academy is a crappy store.  Why not go for a Dick's or an REI?

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## unconcerned

> Man a Whole Foods would be awesome!! Trader Joes would be even better.


Agree completely. As I understand it though, Trader Joes will not expand into Oklahoma because of our archaic liquor laws which prohibit selling wine in a grocery store. That's a shame, because Trader Joes is awesome.

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## jbrown84

Trader Joe's closest locations are in Santa Fe, NM and St. Louis.  They aren't even in Texas.

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## centaurian

Im so glad that Norman is becoming the Retail shopping mecca of the south, (emphasis on sarcasm)  
but it sure would be nice to see someone develop some of this real estate into some residential or some other kind of development (entertainment, etc) like that of downtown okc.  

we seem to be nothing but a shopping mall, for cars and what ever retail store you can dream of .

When is Norman going to get a developer to work on the infrastructure of the town, or should we just let the town become Edmondized as ive seen on someone 's bumper sticker.

Come on Norman do we need all this retail here?  Guess we gotta give those football fans something to do before and after the games. After all , the University had something to do with this UNP anyway...things that make you go hmmmmm.

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## Dekoung

Yes, Trader Joe's is not even in TX as posted above.  I have been to many TJ's on east and west coasts and AZ and  I have gotten the phone number of HQ and called and put in a good word.  It is something about distribution network with the products they sell.

A Whole Foods although pricey is better than nothing.  The Whole Foods in Tulsa which was a Wild Oats until the merger is one of their top selling stores percentage wise and I was told they want to move from their 41 and Peoria location to way out south so they can have an even larger store.  And of course the Tulsa one does not sell wine and is thriving anyway.

----------


## dismayed

> Agree completely. As I understand it though, Trader Joes will not expand into Oklahoma because of our archaic liquor laws which prohibit selling wine in a grocery store. That's a shame, because Trader Joes is awesome.


At one point there was a group trying to get a petition going to call a vote on this very subject and make grocery store liquor sales legal.  Does anyone know the status of that?

----------


## OKCMallen

The last time I looked the website for that group had not been update in a really long time.

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## john60

Recently, I know that Qdoba and Athletic Village have both opened stores in UNP; the John Q. Hammons hotel (which in my opinion, all look the same, and they don't look good) is also almost complete.  It will at least be nice to have a big, nice hotel in Norman.

It seems like Phase I, or whatever they are doing right now, is the more basic retail stuff.  Hopefully the later phases of this project will bring some better tenants than a Pet's Mart and a Cingular Wireless.  Otherwise, this thing will be not much to get excited about, IMO.  Just another spiffy oversized strip center on I-35.  

That's a bit negative, though.  Maybe that was the intention: to see if phase one could be bursting at the seams supporting "regular stuff" to encourage the higher end merchants to sign on.

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## Dekoung

[QUOTE=john60;141953].

It seems like Phase I, or whatever they are doing right now, is the more basic retail stuff.  Hopefully the later phases of this project will bring some better tenants than a Pet's Mart and a Cingular Wireless.  Otherwise, this thing will be not much to get excited about, IMO.  Just another spiffy oversized strip center on I-35.  

A person involved with this told me that indeed Phase I is as expressed above.  I'm not sure if it is Phase II or Phase III that is supposed to have the "upscale" merchants.  But anyone I ask can not tell me who some of these might be.  I think it will be mid level chains like Black and White and Anne Taylor Loft.  I can't imagine Nordstrom's, Neiman Marcus, Saks coming in there since there are no Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus' in OKC or Tulsa so why one in Norman which does not have the demographics of Tulsa or OKC.  Saks has a very successful small store in Tulsa but think they think one is enough for the state.  I can see the possibility of a Williams Sonoma since the CEO is an OU grad.

----------


## Dar405301

does anyone have any recent pics of UNP?

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## centaurian

UNP  is great and all. ( i guess) but does anyone really live or drive around the nw side of norman, the traffic situation is worse than ever., can we say urban crowding?

ODOT is going to widen I 35 through Norman, and the city is considering construction on the service roads down the east and west side to make them one way.  
wow how much fun that will be to have so much construction going on between lindsey and robinson.....

not to mention they are going to shut robinson down to 2 lanes soon at 36th to work on the waterway there...i also heard they are trying to connect rock creek at the west end of UNP across the interstate to create another overpass ?? has anyone heard about that plan?   

and you thought main and 36th st was a mess..
I m glad i dont live on the west side of I35.

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## flintysooner

We went to Qdoba the other day for lunch.  There were a lot of people all throughout the center and a pretty good line at Qdoba.  It is very convenient for us since we come from the north.  When the new hospital complex is completed and operating there will be a lot more people there, too.

I think the center is done very nicely on a good many of the small details.  They are expensive details and probably few people would notice them.

----------


## Littleville

On one of the maps I saw of UNP one of the fashion department stores was a Belk which is a nice department store.

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## Jesseda

my wife loves belks, good news finally a department store that is not be in every other town in the metro

----------


## little1335

With the Parisian acquistion in the SE US, Belk are everywhere around here. Sort of a dime a dozen. They do have some nice things in larger markets (some in ATL,  etc.) but others are sort of, just, eh... I hope they attract even higher end retail to UNP.

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## jbrown84

I haven't been in one, but I get the idea that Belk's is just another Gordman's or Kohl's.

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## CuatrodeMayo

> I haven't been in one, but I get the idea that Belk's is just another Gordman's or Kohl's.


I can assure you it's not.  My wife worked at the one in stillwater from the time it opened in 2006 until last month.  It's not as nice as Dillards or Macy's but more similar to JCPenny.

And it's Belk, not Belk's/Belks. =)

----------


## jbrown84

Interesting.

My assumptions need not be correct.

----------


## Jesseda

Belk- Belks who cares, you say tomato and I say posibble salmonella poisioning.. As long as we know what it means and is on the same subject Belk or belks, I hear people say JcPennys all the time and I know what they are meaning.. Wow some people are so nit picky.. ; )

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## CuatrodeMayo

> Belk- Belks who cares, you say tomato and I say How much.. As long as we know what it means and is on the same subject Belk or belks, I hear people say JcPennys all the time and I know what they are meaning.. Wow some people are so nit picky.. ; )


C'mon man, I put a SMILEY face there  :Smile:   I just said that because that is what my wife would do.

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## Jesseda

Just having a friendly spat with you. I didnt know there was a belk in stillwater, does it do any business? The one in branson,mo is really nice(its the only belk store i have been in), so I thought maybe all belk department stores would be like it?

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## CuatrodeMayo

All in good fun. The one in Stillwater is fairly small compared to the other stores, but it is still quite nice. They do pretty good business because they carry merchandise that only OKC and Tulsa department stores have.

There is also a larger store in Owasso that is very nice and a new one that just opened in South Tulsa.

----------


## Dekoung

I read an article in the Wall Street Journal this week about the problems of new and in construction lifestyle centers with future retail stores who had signed on to be tennants and have backed out because of the economic situation.  These are mainly the smaller more upscale stores. 

Part of the problem is the herd syndrome.  Certain retailers want to be with others so they wait to see who is coming in.  If a key store does not sign on or pulls out then there can be a domino effect. It can be circular too with store A waiting on store B and vice versa.

So just wondering if UN Park is having any problems like that?

----------


## Superhyper

With Norman (and Oklahoma in general)'s continued growth and relative isolation from the downturn I don't expect that to be too much of a problem here. At least not for a while. Here's hoping we can continue to buck the nation-wide trend  :Smile:

----------


## slick

Hello,

New to the forum.  Been browsing for a bit, and this thread caught my eye.  I didn't even know that this development was as big as it is (looking at the site map, there seems to be a whole lot heading our way).

And thats what I have questions about.  Does anyone have the contact information for the developer?  I am wonder if there are any opportunities left for a hotel or two (small scale of course, no JQH sized properties coming from me).  One of the site plans I saw, showed a proposed 13 acres or so, at Rock Creek and the frontage road.

I would also like to say that I am very glad I found this site.  I never knew so many locals were interested in the development of our State.  This really makes me excited about the future of Oklahoma (and glad that I didn't move to Texas, lol).

----------


## veritas

> Part of the problem is the herd syndrome.  Certain retailers want to be with others so they wait to see who is coming in.  If a key store does not sign on or pulls out then there can be a domino effect. It can be circular too with store A waiting on store B and vice versa.
> 
> So just wondering if UN Park is having any problems like that?


Your "herd" metaphore is very correct.  Commercial retailers are a funny bunch and spend vast amounts of time analyzing who is and isn't present at a site prior to their move in.  However, usually a development will reach a critical mass where the first domino falls and the rest fall soon afterwards.

In particular, this scenario is likely to play out at UNP.  I've heard many complaining about how the City Council was lied to about the types of stores that will move into UNP.  What I believe they are missing is the fact that, just as you described, the upper end stores wait to see who will go in first prior to their decision to act.  This usually means the more moderate stores will take the plunge first (Kohl's, Target, Dress Barn, etc.) which will help build to the critical mass I referenced above.  

Moreover, as Legacy Trail begins to be built out (the trail will eventually connect UNP to Lake Thunderbird via walking and biking trails) I suspect the intertia will only grow.  UNP is a two mile long development and the first mile isn't even close to being fully developed.

----------


## flintysooner

> Does anyone have the contact information for the developer?  I am wonder if there are any opportunities left for a hotel or two


Sooner Investment - Commercial & Investment Real Estate

Doubtful on hotel opportunities.

----------


## Dekoung

> With Norman (and Oklahoma in general)'s continued growth and relative isolation from the downturn I don't expect that to be too much of a problem here. At least not for a while. Here's hoping we can continue to buck the nation-wide trend


Superhyper, sorry, I did not make myself clear.  The article referenced not only the local economies but also the national economic situation which has effect on the national chains and their decisions to build new stores or pull in their horns.  So even though this area may be doing pretty well , some chains may be rethinking expansion into new retail developments.

----------


## slick

I called about the possibility of another hotel or two in this development, however, they are not currently pursuing more hospitality.  Its still on the table, but until the Embassy opens, they will not contract out another hotel.
But there is still a possibility, so I am hopeful at this point.  I would like to have a hotel in Norman, and UNP is definitely the area I would like to be in.  I can't wait to see how this development turns out.

----------


## flintysooner

Published July 30, 2008 12:00 am - Statutory committee members for the University North Park Tax Increment Financing District No. 2 voted Tuesday to send a proposed amendment to the UNP TIF's Project Plan back with all funds still on the table.

Statutory committee keeps TIF funds on table

----------


## BG918

> I called about the possibility of another hotel or two in this development, however, they are not currently pursuing more hospitality.  Its still on the table, but until the Embassy opens, they will not contract out another hotel.
> But there is still a possibility, so I am hopeful at this point.  I would like to have a hotel in Norman, and UNP is definitely the area I would like to be in.  I can't wait to see how this development turns out.


I think any new hotel in Norman should be near OU.  It's crazy there's not a large hotel already by campus like in Campus Corner or downtown.

----------


## slick

I wouldn't be opposed to one near OU, but I don't think I would want one off of Highway 9 for instance.  I would also think that by placing one in closer proximity to the OU campus, I would be lessening my chances of getting regular travel/Interstate business.  If OU didn't have something going on that required out of town patrons to need a hotel, who would come to my hotel?
I'm not saying that there is no demand for a hotel near OU, I think more people would rather "play it safe" and place one near the Interstate (and its not far from the campus or anything really).

----------


## BG918

You wouldn't put a large hotel near OU but one that could be used for visitors looking at the university, fans staying for football and basketball games especially those from other schools wanting to be close, people coming for events and lectures at the university such as guest speakers, and then of course those that don't want to stay in a boring hotel by the interstate.  Something really nice like the Atherton at OSU but bigger and located in Campus Corner, with a great restaurant that could be a showcase for visitors.

I actually think there could be two hotels.  One medium-sized hotel like a Sheraton or Radisson right by the stadium that would primarily be used for those coming for football games but could also include meeting facilities and be used year-round especially for people coming to the research campus and National Weather Center nearby on Jenkins.  Such a building could also have condos for fans wanting to own a place by the stadium and be located where the athletic dorms are currently, assuming they will be rebuilt at the SE corner of Lindsey and Jenkins.  The other would be the aforementioned small upscale hotel in Campus Corner.  Getting people away from the interstate and inside Norman would be better for the city in the long run, and there are already plenty of options off I-35 (basically all the hotels in Norman are located there).

----------


## slick

Since it hasn't been done yet, I would believe that there isn't demand for a hotel on campus.
If most of the customers staying at the existing hotels in Norman throughout the week are there specifically for University business, I can see a hotel doing well on campus.
If thats not the case, why would someone drive a few miles off the interstate to stay on campus?
But then again, it could be something as simple as OU not wanting a hotel on there campus. Or maybe they are making it too difficult from someone to build one (strict requirements on size and architecture could turn off potential developers).
My family and I would never be opposed to putting a hotel on a University campus, we would just have to have good reason to believe it would do well to even want to bother.  As of right now, off the interstate (UNP area more specifically) is the part of town I would want to put a new hotel.

----------


## Superhyper

> Since it hasn't been done yet, I would believe that there isn't demand for a hotel on campus.
> If most of the customers staying at the existing hotels in Norman throughout the week are there specifically for University business, I can see a hotel doing well on campus.
> If thats not the case, why would someone drive a few miles off the interstate to stay on campus?
> But then again, it could be something as simple as OU not wanting a hotel on there campus. Or maybe they are making it too difficult from someone to build one (strict requirements on size and architecture could turn off potential developers).
> My family and I would never be opposed to putting a hotel on a University campus, we would just have to have good reason to believe it would do well to even want to bother.  As of right now, off the interstate (UNP area more specifically) is the part of town I would want to put a new hotel.


OU actually just closed it's own on-campus hotel. Admittedly it was terrible, but it had apparently been quite a tradition here for a number of years.

----------


## BG918

> OU actually just closed it's own on-campus hotel. Admittedly it was terrible, but it had apparently been quite a tradition here for a number of years.


That gives OU a great opportunity to build a new Sooner Hotel that would be much better than the old one.  OU building and operating it would probably be more feasible than a private developer, and the end product would most likely be better anyway.  Anything built at OU is built to last while sadly many developers do the opposite.

----------


## venture

Best Western opened last year (I think) on the South side of Campus. So there is one major chain very close to campus right now.

----------


## slick

Totally forgot about Best Western, off of Classen I believe.  Looks okay from the outside, but I remember seeing the rooms, and they were very nice (I think I remember flat panel LCD's as well).
I knew Sooner Hotel existed also, but never knew they closed it (are they going to turn it into dorms or apartments?)
I can see OU opening a hotel of their own, but really, I think most people will be happy with staying near the Interstate and driving to OU.

----------


## Superhyper

I honestly haven't heard any plans for a new hotel. They've converted the bungalows nearby into suites for visiting faculty/staff, but that's about all that's been done. I believe the original building itself is being turned into more administrative offices. If OU is to build another hotel, i'd be curious to see where it goes. We're* already pressed for space as it is. 

*Disclaimer: I do work for the University. That doesn't mean I know everything that's going on though!

----------


## blangtang

surely there was a hotel in downtown Norman at some date in the past.  

and maybe the handful of bed and breakfast establishments located around campus fill the demand somewhat for lodging near campus corner/OU.

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## edball

> surely there was a hotel in downtown Norman at some date in the past.  
> 
> and maybe the handful of bed and breakfast establishments located around campus fill the demand somewhat for lodging near campus corner/OU.


There used to be a hotel on Main street. I think it was on the corner of University and Main, on the North side. It was there in the 60's or early 70's.

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## BG918

Many universities have university-owned hotels on campus or nearby.  They give alumni special rates, host visiting speakers, and allow people to stay by a bustling college campus.  If OU were to rebuild the Sooner Hotel I'd say put it in Campus Corner and make it the cornerstone of a revitalization of University Blvd.  Also make it upscale but also modern so visitors can leave Norman impressed.

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## jbrown84

OSU fixed up their run down campus hotel (with donations) and it's extremely nice now.  On the Historic Hotels of America list actually.

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## BG918

> OSU fixed up their run down campus hotel (with donations) and it's extremely nice now.  On the Historic Hotels of America list actually.


The Atherton is very nice, as is the Ranchers Club restaurant inside.  Something the size of the Atherton with an upscale restaurant would be PERFECT for Campus Corner.

Back to UNP, I know people working on the Embassy Suites project and substantial completion is still Sep. 21st.  So I would guess a grand opening sometime in October.

----------


## Dekoung

I guess you all read this article in the Transcript this morning.  It raises some questions with me.

 "He said in January, he made an error when he announced several stores from which they had letters of intent. As a result of the negative backlash, some of the stores decided not to locate in the area."  So what stores were announced and what was the negative backlash?

"He said the national economic climate had made it tougher to attract stores and restaurants, but he still expects to be successful. Several national chains have made announcements that they will not be opening new locations until the economy rebounds."  I wonder if he was counting on some of these chains?

"In Phase 6, developers are looking at grocers like Whole Foods. Phase 6 is planned for construction in 2011 and 2012, although Nelson said there is no definite timeline."  I think the question is would Whole Foods look at UNP not vice versa?

"He said he expects to have the south portion of University North Park between Robinson and Rock Creek Road fully developed in the next five to eight years.   At this time, they do not have any plans to do residential or office space."  So when might that residential /office space be developed?



Businesses coming to University North Park
By Carol Cole-Frowe


August 14, 2008 10:59 am

 New restaurants, shops and stores are coming to the 280-acre retail development at University North Park, but many of those remain under wraps, said Stanton Nelson, UNP developer.
Nelson told the Norman Chamber of Commerce's aviation committee at their Tuesday luncheon that he and developer Roy Oliver have a strong desire to bring good things to Norman in the 2 million square feet of retail space planned in the UNP retail development west of Max Westheimer Airport, east of Interstate-35 and between Robinson Street and Rock Creek Road.
"(Roy) is from here. I live here," Nelson said. "We wanted to do something that would hopefully be positive. ... We (in Norman) have lost a lot of sales tax dollars to Moore and other places ... Not only is this going to keep hopefully our sales tax dollars here, but we are going to attract from the south, the west, the east and even the north. Hopefully, this will be a place that people will get in the car to come just for the variety of stores that are going to be here."
He said three upscale restaurants are committed to locate around Legacy Park, when Norman councilmembers approve revenue bonds for the $8.5 million in UNP Tax Increment Financing District funds to build it. Park land is going to be donated to the City of Norman as part of the TIF projects.
"What we see as a huge value ... first of all it's going to be a huge amenity to the city," Nelson said about Legacy Park. "But we are also going to have the ability to have two or three restaurant pads around the water feature."
One of those will be a Mahogany Prime Steakhouse from the Hal Smith Restaurant Group. Two others he said he couldn't announce yet.
"Obviously the restaurant pad users want to make sure that the park is built, so it is all contingent on the city," Nelson said. "So I really anticipate that with a vote from council hopefully in September. And hopefully they can start construction sometime in 2009."
Nelson said the group also is waiting on the City regarding plans to firm up on the Rock Creek overpass from 24th Avenue NW to 36th Avenue NW over I-35, before they go further in the design of that portion of the development.
He said the national economic climate had made it tougher to attract stores and restaurants, but he still expects to be successful. Several national chains have made announcements that they will not be opening new locations until the economy rebounds.
But it helps that Norman recently was named No. 6 among the Best Small Cities to Live by Money magazine.
"We're doing better than just about everybody in the nation," Nelson said about central Oklahoma after the meeting. "If they are going to locate anywhere, they should locate here."
He said he expects to have the south portion of University North Park between Robinson and Rock Creek Road fully developed in the next five to eight years. At this time, they do not have any plans to do residential or office space.
"This is a unique project ... when you look at this contiguous (retail) project, it is the fourth largest in the United States," Nelson said.
He said Phase II construction to the north of Kohl's should start in the next 90 to 120 days, with a variety of stores.
The John Q. Hammons Embassy Suites and Conference Center is expected to open Oct. 15.
"That will have a huge benefit ... bringing 2,500 people to town (on the weekend)," Nelson said.
The Logan's Roadhouse near completion will be opening south of the Super Target. A Cheddar's restaurant is planned to open in 2009 nearby.
Nelson said the lifestyle center in Phase 5 will be the focal point of the development, similar to the spine of the entire project. It would include the more upscale stores in the project.
"What we've tried to do is build around the lifestyle center, so it won't just be out there by itself," he said. "Our intent is to come back later this year and have something to show city council (about the lifestyle center)."
Developers are planning an upscale theater complex that would show more art-type movies as well as first-run movies.
"There is a myriad of different concepts that we are looking at," Nelson said. "The feel (for the lifestyle center) is that you can park your car and you can walk from one end to the other. ... We'll have a Main Street feel."
One aviation committee member asked about high-end stores expected to be located in University North Park.
Nelson said recently the city of Chandler, Ariz., paid Neiman-Marcus $40 million to come to town. TIF committee members were told in the initial phases that the area would not support a Nordstrom's or Saks, but could still attract upscale stores.
"The reality is that they do the research on the population base," Nelson said. "Unfortunately, Oklahoma City and Norman, we just don't have the economics to support them."
In Phase 6, developers are looking at grocers like Whole Foods. Phase 6 is planned for construction in 2011 and 2012, although Nelson said there is no definite timeline.
He said the impact to Norman is already being felt, with a current ad valorem tax base of somewhere around $540 million.
"So it's going to have a huge impact to Norman," Nelson said.
Sales tax and ad valorem dollars are already outpacing projections, he said.
"With the 280 acres fully built out, we'll double the tax base," Nelson said.
He said in January, he made an error when he announced several stores from which they had letters of intent. As a result of the negative backlash, some of the stores decided not to locate in the area.
"The hard part about doing this is I know people are wanting to know about specific stores," Nelson said. "I apologize that I can't give you a full list of everybody who's coming."
There are $11.5 million in TIF funds planned to improve the Robinson Street and Tecumseh Road intersections and build the frontage road. Councilmembers recently voted to spent $7.75 million to help build the Rock Creek overpass that would have been part of the funds used to purchase the conference center.
Developers are building other infrastructure like internal roads to make the project work.
"Only one road is part of the TIF," he said. "Every other road is outside of the project."
He said they have no preference about whether frontage roads along I-35 should be one-way or two-way, an issue being discussed in conjunction with the upcoming I-35 six-lane widening project by the Oklahoma Department of Transportation.
"What we'd like to see is if it's one-way, it needs to be one-way throughout the city. Because there is some talk of breaking it up," Nelson said. "I just feel like people will be confused ... We're comfortable either way and we'll support the city in whatever direction they opt to take."
He urged Norman residents to have patience about how the development is unfolding and said he believes the development will meet the expectations of the public when it's fully built out.
"Hopefully it will have a huge, positive, long-lasting impact on Norman, not only from a sales tax standpoint, but on the public schools and everything associated with the ad valorem tax base," Nelson said.
Carol Cole-Frowe 366-3538 ccole@normantranscript.com

----------


## Soonerman

Is Dicks Sporting Goods still planning on coming to UNP?

----------


## BG918

"The feel (for the lifestyle center) is that you can park your car and you can walk from one end to the other. ... We'll have a Main Street feel."

Why not just build on real Main Street then?  Maybe we wouldn't want this kind of development (or developer) in downtown anyway as they are dragging their feet and everything has been below expectations so far.  I honestly never expected anything better though, it's a giant strip mall with bland chain stores that serve their purpose with a nice hotel/conference center.  If I was showing a visitor around Norman I would not take them there, how is it any different than anywhere else in the country?  Norman should be trying harder to continue development downtown and around OU instead of in this sprawling area along I-35.  If I were an upscale retailer I would rather be in Campus Corner near boutiques and local eateries right next to a university instead of surrounded by parking lots, the airport, and stores like Dress Barn and Kohl's.

----------


## BFizzy

OU doesn't own Main St, so how could they develop it?  The land that they are developing is very valuable for what it is.  

The developer was actually ahead of schedule for the first two phases.  They aren't the ones dragging their feet.

The first two phases have turned out to be exactly what they said they would be.  Upscale tenants aren't supposed to come until the Lifestyle Center phase.  It's too early to complain about the tenants.   All "lifestyle" centers have big box stores around them.  

Does anyone really think that this developer isn't trying to get upscale tenants?  If the store refuses to come, it's not the developer's fault.

----------


## venture

People will whine and complain about anything and everything, then try to justify it. Fizzy...sometimes it is best to just laugh at their pathetic behavior and move on.  :Smile: 

Needless to say, the project has provided more jobs and a really nice hotel that Norman has really needed.

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## BFizzy

It's definitely nicer than the big mound of dirt that was there before.

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## Superhyper

> It's definitely nicer than the big mound of dirt that was there before.


Amen to that!

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## soonerliberal

> People will whine and complain about anything and everything, then try to justify it. Fizzy...sometimes it is best to just laugh at their pathetic behavior and move on. 
> 
> Needless to say, the project has provided more jobs and a really nice hotel that Norman has really needed.


Thanks for saying what most of us were thinking.

This project has been one of the rare ones that has been EXACTLY as we have been promised.  I take Sooner Investment Group at their word.  They have high-quality projects.  The two highest quality "strip malls" in the OKC are theirs: University North Park and the Midwest City Town Center.

----------


## jbrown84

> "He said in January, he made an error when he announced several stores from which they had letters of intent. As a result of the negative backlash, some of the stores decided not to locate in the area."  So what stores were announced and what was the negative backlash?


This is the one that I'm curious about.

----------


## BG918

> OU doesn't own Main St, so how could they develop it?  The land that they are developing is very valuable for what it is.  
> 
> The developer was actually ahead of schedule for the first two phases.  They aren't the ones dragging their feet.
> 
> The first two phases have turned out to be exactly what they said they would be.  Upscale tenants aren't supposed to come until the Lifestyle Center phase.  It's too early to complain about the tenants.   All "lifestyle" centers have big box stores around them.  
> 
> Does anyone really think that this developer isn't trying to get upscale tenants?  If the store refuses to come, it's not the developer's fault.


I realize OU doesn't own Main Street but they own a lot of property just to the south.  I think it's good they have developed something there by the airport and Norman needs those big box stores and really needed that hotel.  I just think OU would be better off working to redevelop the gateway to the university along Main that is currently not that attractive instead of trying to lure upscale stores to a faux-Main Street setting next to the airport and big box stores.  Trust me I am GLAD we have this development for the tax revenue and increased shopping/dining options it provides, although I will probably never shop anywhere there except Target. 

Ohio State University recently completed a project by their campus which took a really rundown stretch of High Street that serves as a gateway to their campus and revitalized it with stores, restaurants, and university offices.  I've been to Columbus when it was still rundown and it makes downtown Norman look like Brookhaven, I mean it was really rundown and even dangerous.  Now it is great, I saw it on a trip I took up there a couple years ago and couldn't believe the transformation and what it has done for Ohio State.  I was thinking the whole time how great that would be for OU to do the same with Main as you enter downtown coming on Main or Flood from I-35 and then down University to Boyd.  Maybe if they are successful with the rest of UNP they will have the money to finally do that, it is definitely overdue.

----------


## okcustu

> People will whine and complain about anything and everything, then try to justify it. Fizzy...sometimes it is best to just laugh at their pathetic behavior and move on. 
> 
> Needless to say, the project has provided more jobs and a really nice hotel that Norman has really needed.


However some complaints are justified i thought this was really going to be something yet there is nothing unique to our market yet. I wll of coursehold off final judgement until much later but first imppressions are important. And to all the over eager defenders remember the developer is not paying please don't take made against the project personally.

----------


## soonerliberal

OUDaily.com | Norman sells new ‘lifestyles’

----------


## oknacreous

From the OU Daily article: "Officials are also working on plans for a luxury movie theater that will show lesser-known films on eight to 10 screens. Itll deal more with the artistic side and more independent films you might not see at theaters, Nelson said. Theres a huge demand for it."

Fantastic. I love the Magnolia in Dallas and would love to have a similar theater within a few minutes of the house. I hope people here will give it a chance so it will remain viable. Now if we could just get that Whole Foods...

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## jbrown84

> From the OU Daily article: "Officials are also working on plans for a luxury movie theater that will show lesser-known films on eight to 10 screens. Itll deal more with the artistic side and more independent films you might not see at theaters, Nelson said. Theres a huge demand for it."


Sounds a lot like an Angelika.  I think it would work better in a more central location, but I'll settle for Norman.  I fear it wouldn't make it down there, though.

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## oknacreous

> Sounds a lot like an Angelika.  I think it would work better in a more central location, but I'll settle for Norman.  I fear it wouldn't make it down there, though.


You're right, I'm thinking of Angelika and not Magnolia. Wires crossed in the brain.  :Smile: 

I think a modest project, like a 4 to 6 screen theater (not getting too fancy with the "luxury" part) would have a following, at least until the Christianists get their panties in a wad when the place screens something they don't approve of.

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## jbrown84

Well the Anglelika in Mockingbird Station is not really very luxury.  Not at all compared to the Warren.  It's kind of modern and spartan in decor, the theatres are small, and the picture quality is nothing special.  It's just that they show things you can't find anywhere else, except the Art Musuem in some cases.  The Art Museum theatre, by comparison, is much nicer.

However, it's just a very niche audience on a lot of these films and even the one in Dallas isn't THAT crowded.  I know Norman is an "artsy" place, but I think it would be much more likely to survive if it were downtown.

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## BG918

> Well the Anglelika in Mockingbird Station is not really very luxury.  Not at all compared to the Warren.  It's kind of modern and spartan in decor, the theatres are small, and the picture quality is nothing special.  It's just that they show things you can't find anywhere else, except the Art Musuem in some cases.  The Art Museum theatre, by comparison, is much nicer.
> 
> However, it's just a very niche audience on a lot of these films and even the one in Dallas isn't THAT crowded.  I know Norman is an "artsy" place, but I think it would be much more likely to survive if it were downtown.


I agree.  This whole lifestyle center sounds great and I'm glad Norman will be getting some new stores but I can't stand the location.  Main St. would be much better.  The city says they are committed to downtown but when they let these kind of developments happen I wonder just how committed they really are.  I have heard people say Norman is similar to Lawrence, Kansas but Lawrence would put these stores and theater downtown and not by the interstate.

I can only hope Urban Outfitters does not go in this development and rather goes to an actual urban location in Norman.

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## veritas

> I have heard people say Norman is similar to Lawrence, Kansas but Lawrence would put these stores and theater downtown and not by the interstate.
> 
> I can only hope Urban Outfitters does not go in this development and rather goes to an actual urban location in Norman.


The 15 minute rule of real-estate dictates that it won't happen.  The easy on, easy off access next to I-35 increases the number of roof tops available in the store 15 minute foot print.  

The reason this area will continue to attract desirable shopping that might otherwise be located downtown is the sheer demographics available.  I love downtown Norman as much as the next guy but it is what it is; hard to get to.

----------


## BG918

> The 15 minute rule of real-estate dictates that it won't happen.  The easy on, easy off access next to I-35 increases the number of roof tops available in the store 15 minute foot print.  
> 
> The reason this area will continue to attract desirable shopping that might otherwise be located downtown is the sheer demographics available.  I love downtown Norman as much as the next guy but it is what it is; hard to get to.


Hard to get to?  Main, one of the four primary east-west corridors in Norman, runs from the westside straight into downtown and into east Norman.  It takes less than 10 min. with traffic to get from I-35 to downtown.

In understand some of the reasoning but many other cities have made it a priority to draw people into the city and off the interstate.  Downtown Norman will thrive with or without UNP but it sure would be nice to see some of the stores along a real Main and not the faux Main Street they're building in UNP.  Just like Campus Corner is mostly local stores and restaurants so will downtown but unlike CC there aren't very many "anchors" to draw more local businesses which is where a few well-placed national stores and restaurants could help out.

----------


## oneforone

> I agree. This whole lifestyle center sounds great and I'm glad Norman will be getting some new stores but I can't stand the location. Main St. would be much better. The city says they are committed to downtown but when they let these kind of developments happen I wonder just how committed they really are. I have heard people say Norman is similar to Lawrence, Kansas but Lawrence would put these stores and theater downtown and not by the interstate.
> 
> I can only hope Urban Outfitters does not go in this development and rather goes to an actual urban location in Norman.


I think every store should be in a congested downtown area where you have to park six blocks away to shop there.

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## BG918

> I think every store should be in a congested downtown area where you have to park six blocks away to shop there.


You walk more going to a mall or shopping center than you would downtown where there is parking in front of the stores, or not far away, on the street or parking in lots behind.  I wouldn't say downtown is congested, although we really need to bring back 2 way traffic on Main.  Campus Corner has more issues with parking and really needs a garage.  Plus walking is GOOD for you.   :Biggrin:

----------


## veritas

> Hard to get to?  Main, one of the four primary east-west corridors in Norman, runs from the westside straight into downtown and into east Norman.  It takes less than 10 min. with traffic to get from I-35 to downtown.
> 
> In understand some of the reasoning but many other cities have made it a priority to draw people into the city and off the interstate.  Downtown Norman will thrive with or without UNP but it sure would be nice to see some of the stores along a real Main and not the faux Main Street they're building in UNP.  Just like Campus Corner is mostly local stores and restaurants so will downtown but unlike CC there aren't very many "anchors" to draw more local businesses which is where a few well-placed national stores and restaurants could help out.


Think of it this way.   You're a retail site land hunter who has two options: Downtown Norman and UNP.   One has 30,000 households within the "15 minute" footprint and one has 10,000 households.  Which one are you going to go with?  It's a simple math formula.  Distance divided by rate = time or D/R=T.  In this case, the faster the rate at which you can travel, the greater the distance you can live from the store.

It isn't that you can't physically get to downtown Norman.  It's just that the distance you can travel within "15 minutes" of downtown is hampered by traffic/trains/two lane roads and the like. This is the reason the large retail draws will continue to stick close to the interstate.

As for your statement that it takes 10 minutes to get to downtown from I-35, do you live in Norman?   You must either be traveling in the wee morning hours or sometime after 10 pm.   I commute to where I work (about 1/2 a mile north of downtown) from the NE side of Norman.  Its a total of about 2.5 miles with limited traffic and it still takes me 7-8 minutes.  When I lived on the west side, it took me a minimum of 15 minutes.   I LOATHED going to shop downtown and I lived well within the city limits.   In fact, I would drive north on 36th street to Moore rather than try to cross Norman from West to downtown.   That is why the UNP is and will continue to be the draw it is.

----------


## BG918

> Think of it this way.   You're a retail site land hunter who has two options: Downtown Norman and UNP.   One has 30,000 households within the "15 minute" footprint and one has 10,000 households.  Which one are you going to go with?  It's a simple math formula.  Distance divided by rate = time or D/R=T.  In this case, the faster the rate at which you can travel, the greater the distance you can live from the store.
> 
> It isn't that you can't physically get to downtown Norman.  It's just that the distance you can travel within "15 minutes" of downtown is hampered by traffic/trains/two lane roads and the like. This is the reason the large retail draws will continue to stick close to the interstate.
> 
> As for your statement that it takes 10 minutes to get to downtown from I-35, do you live in Norman?   You must either be traveling in the wee morning hours or sometime after 10 pm.   I commute to where I work (about 1/2 a mile north of downtown) from the NE side of Norman.  Its a total of about 2.5 miles with limited traffic and it still takes me 7-8 minutes.  When I lived on the west side, it took me a minimum of 15 minutes.   I LOATHED going to shop downtown and I lived well within the city limits.   In fact, I would drive north on 36th street to Moore rather than try to cross Norman from West to downtown.   That is why the UNP is and will continue to be the draw it is.


And that is truly unfortunate.  Downtown could be what ties the very different westside, eastside, and campus areas together in a CENTRAL location but not if everything is located along I-35.  For me, by campus, it's a pain to get to the interstate.  Also downtown stands to benefit once commuter rail is up and running and I wouldn't be surprised to see stores that initially located in UNP relocate.  Downtown Norman will be the finest TOD in the Metro outside of downtown OKC.  Just give it time (and make Main 2 way again).

----------


## veritas

> And that is truly unfortunate.  Downtown could be what ties the very different westside, eastside, and campus areas together in a CENTRAL location but not if everything is located along I-35.  For me, by campus, it's a pain to get to the interstate.  Also downtown stands to benefit once commuter rail is up and running and I wouldn't be surprised to see stores that initially located in UNP relocate.  Downtown Norman will be the finest TOD in the Metro outside of downtown OKC.  Just give it time (and make Main 2 way again).


We shall see.   Oh, and I couldn't agree with you more about making Main a 2 way street.   

There are rumors floating that the interstate access roads on the east and west side of I-35 in and around the Robinson area are being pushed to be 1 way.  I hope that these are just rumors with no substance to them  :Frown:

----------


## okcustu

> Think of it this way.   You're a retail site land hunter who has two options: Downtown Norman and UNP.   One has 30,000 households within the "15 minute" footprint and one has 10,000 households.  Which one are you going to go with?  It's a simple math formula.  Distance divided by rate = time or D/R=T.  In this case, the faster the rate at which you can travel, the greater the distance you can live from the store.
> 
> It isn't that you can't physically get to downtown Norman.  It's just that the distance you can travel within "15 minutes" of downtown is hampered by traffic/trains/two lane roads and the like. This is the reason the large retail draws will continue to stick close to the interstate.
> 
> As for your statement that it takes 10 minutes to get to downtown from I-35, do you live in Norman?   You must either be traveling in the wee morning hours or sometime after 10 pm.   I commute to where I work (about 1/2 a mile north of downtown) from the NE side of Norman.  Its a total of about 2.5 miles with limited traffic and it still takes me 7-8 minutes.  When I lived on the west side, it took me a minimum of 15 minutes.   I LOATHED going to shop downtown and I lived well within the city limits.   In fact, I would drive north on 36th street to Moore rather than try to cross Norman from West to downtown.   That is why the UNP is and will continue to be the draw it is.


thats neat and all your fancy figuring but i thought the point was upscale/specialty shops which often tend to favor urban areas. norman needs to more like lawrence; this ugly cookie cutter shopping center filed with stores like ross and dress barn only lessens norman's college town feel.

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## okcustu

i think anyone who has been to both and is unbiased will admit mass st is much better than campus corner



when's the last time you saw this on campus corner?

Downtown Lawrence : The Heart of the City

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## BG918

> i think anyone who has been to both and is unbiased will admit mass st is much better than campus corner
> 
> 
> 
> when's the last time you saw this on campus corner?
> 
> Downtown Lawrence : The Heart of the City


I agree.  Although Campus Corner is close, and could be even better if University is developed and the "wall" of bars/restaurants/local shops is expanded north on Asp.  You couldn't ask for a better location right next to OU.  I wouldn't want any of whatever is going in at UNP in Campus Corner, but downtown, especially the rundown part near Main & Flood, could really use some of that retail and restaurant activity.  Norman needs to think of itself as a unique college town first, booming OKC suburb second...

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## okcustu

amen campus corner has serious potential id like to see a medium to large bookstore  (independent or chain) move in

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## BFizzy

> when's the last time you saw this on campus corner?


Saturday.

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## ouguy23

> Saturday.


lol! I concur.

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## BG918

> amen campus corner has serious potential id like to see a medium to large bookstore  (independent or chain) move in


That would be AWESOME.  An independent would be nice, like Full Circle in OKC, but Border's/Barnes & Noble would be good too.  In my plan for University that I did at OU I had a large 2 story bookstore/coffee shop located at the SW corner of University & White as part of a mixed-use development on the parking lot there that included other retail space along Univ. and a parking garage.  I am hoping that once In The Raw opens it will draw more interest to the diamond in the rough that is University Blvd. thru Campus Corner.

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## jbrown84

It sounds like a big anchor is needed to draw retail and restaurants there.  I'm not sure a book store is quite it, though.

----------


## Pete

I'd love to see development/re-development in Campus Corner of retail in the ground floor and apartments above; 2- to 4-story buildings.

It would be a fantastic place for student to live and bring all types of other possibilities.

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## okyeah

I doubt Campus Corner will ever get a bookstore in the future....not only does Norman have Barnes & Noble and Borders, but they also have Hastings.  and the Hastings recently underwent major renovations...It would be cool if Hastings moved to campus corner, but it's already pretty close to campus, and the place is almost always busy with students from morning 'til night

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## BG918

> I doubt Campus Corner will ever get a bookstore in the future....not only does Norman have Barnes & Noble and Borders, but they also have Hastings.  and the Hastings recently underwent major renovations...It would be cool if Hastings moved to campus corner, but it's already pretty close to campus, and the place is almost always busy with students from morning 'til night


Exactly why another is needed, especially one many students can easily walk to or get to before/after classes.

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## blangtang

they just opened a new bookstore on asp, but its more like a textbook store than a borders/b&n

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## Dekoung

Where on Asp is this new bookstore and its name?

I was in the Tulsa Whole Foods Thursday and spoke with one of the managers who told me there will be a Whole Foods in the OKC area within 1-2 years and are still deciding on the location.   FWIW  bet it is not in UNP but North OKC.

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## okyeah

It's not really a new bookstore...I actually think it's been open (at the new location on Asp) since last year (Fall '07) because I recall buying my textbooks there.  It's Sooner Bookstore.  They moved from their location on Jenkins.

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## metro

The Embassy Suites thread got closed so I'll post these pics of construction here. These are about 3 weeks or so old.

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## CCOKC

My stepfather is one of the job superintendents of this project so I got to visit the hotel a few times during construction.  I was there just 2 weekends ago and it was almost finished on the exterior.  They are supposed to have there soft opening next week, the 15th to be exact and got the certificate of occupancy last week.  It looks pretty impressive inside and the grand ballroom will be one of the nicer and largest convention spaces in town so it should get a lot of use.  My husband mother and I all went to OSU and where with 3 OU graduates when we made the last tour.  The OU grads were just shaking their heads at the color schemes.  I guess they did not think orange would be a very popular choice in Norman.  The rest of us liked the color just fine.

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## Luke

People don't naturally like neon orange do they?  I mean, don't you kind of have to force yourself to like that color?

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## kevinpate

for some reason those same colors keep getting puked up, er, um, applied liberally to many structures.  i do not even pretend to comprehend the choice.

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## CCOKC

This is probably the 6th or so Hotel my stepfather has done and the interior color choices are always quite interesting to say the least.  Funny, they always look better when the funiture is in and people are standing on the carpets but I have never looked at hotel interior decorating the same way since he started building them.

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## Dekoung

[QUOTE=CCOKC;174736].  They are supposed to have there soft opening next week, the 15th to be exact and got the certificate of occupancy last week.  

Why not invite all your nearest and dearest here on the Norman board to the soft opening and we could all say  :Welcome55: ?  

BTW, I read in the paper that the Norman one may be the last of the traditional atrium style and that the new concept is the entry way and not as tall as the center atriums.  True?

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## jbrown84

Well the one in the medical district will be the new style you describe, or at least it won't have the atrium.

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## iambecoming

So, does anyone know what the new building going up by Target and Logans is?  Saw it driving south on 35 earlier today but didn't notice a "coming soon" sign.

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## iambecoming

Anyone know what the new building by Target and Logan's RH is?

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## chrisok

Circuit City announced today that the Norman location (as well as the Penn Square location) will be closing.

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## jbrown84

Penn Square?

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## CCOKC

I thought the same thing.  I think they must mean Portland and NWE.

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## Chase

Tough time to be in the retail market

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## Superhyper

Wow, did that Circuit City even make it a whole year?

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## traxx

^^No.  And that leaves a big hole to be filled in.  Who can they get to put in there?

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## jbrown84

Lord & Taylor of course!

Or was it Barney's?

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## oneforone

> Penn Square?


Back years ago when Circuit City was a real contender. They named their stores after the area or after the nearest mall/shopping center. This was a marketing effort to help the customer pin point the area the stores where located.

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## Soonerman

Looks like a restaurant is going up by Target Is that going to be a Cheddars?

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## joeleo6484

What is going in by Kohls?

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## BFizzy

> Looks like a restaurant is going up by Target Is that going to be a Cheddars?


Yes, Cheddars.

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## jbrown84

That's something new to the market.

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## blangtang

General Growth Properties (GGP) is nearing default/approaching BK.  Think they still own Sooner Fashion Mall.  Be interesting to see if they sell off some properties.

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## lasomeday

MMmmm I love Cheddars!  I can't wait for it to open.

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## timothy.a.owen

So today Office Depot reported that they will be closing 112 under performing stores. I have yet to see a list of stores that it is affecting, if anyone can find it I would be more than grateful! I just hope it doesn't apply to the Norman store, the loss of both Circuit City and Office Depot would definitely hurt UNP development...

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## jbrown84

According to the Tulsa World, no Oklahoma stores will be closing.

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## Jesseda

any new info or stores opening?

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## metro

> MMmmm I love Cheddars!  I can't wait for it to open.


what do you recommend?

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## blangtang

pei wei is my fave

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## theparkman81

I heard a rumor about 2 years ago that a Costco could go in at the University Town Center, Do you think that a Costco would come.

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## dismayed

Seriously, our developers need to think bigger... I'm tired of the same-old same-old, how about**:

Urban Outfitters, DSW Shoes, Fossil Store, Anchor Blue, J. Crew, Uncle Julio's, Chuy's, California Pizza Kitchen, Bucca di Beppo, Dave and Busters, Sega GameWerks, 7 For All Mankind store, AX / Armani Exchange, Banana Republic, a Calvin Klein affiliated store, a tapas restaurant, Fry's Electronics, Disney Store, Origins, Guess, Ecco, Jamba Juice, Gucci, Louis Vuitton Store, Macy's, Nordstrom, Saks, See's Candies, Steve Madden Store, Williams-Sonoma, Boston Market.

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## BFizzy

You really think that the developers don't try to get the merchants you listed?

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## dismayed

Honestly I don't know that our developers are aware of all of those names I just mentioned.  The ones that they are aware of they are probably trying to get.

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## venture

And no new ones will spend money on an untested market right now, regardless of Oklahoma doing okay economically (even though signs are it is catching up to us).

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## Jesseda

i have not been to the un area in awhile, has anything new came in, i thought was where getting some large department stores, i know kohls is out there but what else?

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## dismayed

The only recent additions that I know of are a Shoe Carnival, a store called Rue 21 which looks kind of like a Pac Sun to me, and something called Dots which isn't open yet but looks like it is going to be a woman's clothing store.

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## Dekoung

Nordstrom's is not interested in OKC and Saks is not either and the demographics not favorable for UNP either.  Williams Sonoma would be a possibility probably only because the CEO is an OU grad.

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## kevinpate

wasn't there a Rue 21 out at Sooner Mall a while back ... I'm thinking oh, 6 years(ish)?

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## Soonerman

Academy sports & outdoors is coming to Norman. I don't know if it's coming to UNP. I figured they may go there. They are looking for managers for the new store.

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## GWB

> I heard a rumor about 2 years ago that a Costco could go in at the University Town Center, Do you think that a Costco would come.


Love Costco!  Sure hope they do come to UTC.

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## vaflyer

According to this flyer from the NAI Sullivan Group, Academy Sports is going to be located in Section 2A of the UNP.

http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/3...5D9C25A469.pdf

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## Dar405301

kevinpate, yes, there was a rue21 store at sooner mall at that time. a friend of mine worked there.

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## theparkman81

> Academy sports & outdoors is coming to Norman. I don't know if it's coming to UNP. I figured they may go there. They are looking for managers for the new store.


I like Academy sports and outdoors, I think it would be great if Norman gets one, so people don't have to drive up to the one at I-240 and Western.

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## Soonerman

I feel the same way as Academy will be a pretty nice add to Norman.

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## oneforone

I have yet to see Academy build their own store in Oklahoma. They only move into existing shopping centers or old big box locations. The former Circuit City is out because it is only 21,000 Sq ft.

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## Soonerman

I think they build thier own stores in Tulsa if I'm not mistaken. I know the Walker store was a Builders Square What was on 63rd street before Academy took over the space? I'm wondering if Dicks Sporting Goods is still coming to UNP now that Academy is going in there? Could they coexist in the same center although I'm sure Dicks Sporting Goods will open in the lifestyle center.

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## Stan Silliman

> I think they build thier own stores in Tulsa if I'm not mistaken. I know the Walker store was a Builders Square What was on 63rd street before Academy took over the space? I'm wondering if Dicks Sporting Goods is still coming to UNP now that Academy is going in there? Could they coexist in the same center although I'm sure Dicks Sporting Goods will open in the lifestyle center.


They did build their own store in Tulsa. The store on NW 63rd was a new ground up store and our company was involved in the building. We've also done Academy's in Shreveport, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Austin and Houston. All of those were ground up stores 28 to 35,000', some in shopping centers, some not. 

Athletic Village is also in UNP. I'd be surprised if two more sporting goods stores also located there.

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## Dekoung

JMO but I'd rather have Dick's than Academy.  Athletic Village probably appeals to a different demographic than either of those?

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## Soonerman

I kinda thought Dicks was suppose to go to UNP. Alao is JCPenney still planning on relocating from the mall to UNP?

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## jbrown84

Dick's is 10,000 times better than Academy.

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## Chase

I hear Dick's will make an appearance in Oklahoma in 2010 or 11.

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## dop

Where is the Academy in Norman going to be?  I saw a job site had them looking for  a manager for norman location.....

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## Soonerman

I think it's going in UNP.

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## oudirtypop

Its going directly to the south of kohls

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## jbrown84

> I hear Dick's will make an appearance in Oklahoma in 2010 or 11.


I believe they are set to open in the Memorial & Western development.

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## Jesseda

anything new announced yet?

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## Dekoung

I can't find it now but read an article in either Norman paper or Oklahoman that a man who has opened a high end hair salon in UNP is very disappointed that a couple of cheapy shops have recently gone in near him.  I have not been in them but have driven by and they are no great addition to UNP.

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## oneforone

> I can't find it now but read an article in either Norman paper or Oklahoman that a man who has opened a high end hair salon in UNP is very disappointed that a couple of cheapy shops have recently gone in near him. I have not been in them but have driven by and they are no great addition to UNP.


Why does that really matter? Not everybody likes to pay a fortune for a haircut. I hate to be the break the news to you but, upscale goes out the window when Target is your anchor and the mile of cars is your neighbor to the south.

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## Chase

It is hard to justify Upscale in a college town.  Stores like Target do great but Nordstroms would probably lose money on a deal in Norman.

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## bbhill

> I can't find it now but read an article in either Norman paper or Oklahoman that a man who has opened a high end hair salon in UNP is very disappointed that a couple of cheapy shops have recently gone in near him.  I have not been in them but have driven by and they are no great addition to UNP.


Are we talking about Scott Risk's hair studio? LOL Somehow I don't think that they studied the demographics of Norman very well before they took the plunge from Vegas. . . Nothing against the studio--I've never been there, because I'm not into paying $40 for a mens hair cut.

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## Soonerman

I wonder when Academy is supposed to open?

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## Jesseda

ha ha upscale thats funny, petco, hallmark, kohls, target.. to me this just seems like a regular shopping strip mall, i cant beleive there nothing even getting close to good, at least add a jcpennies to the mix or somthing...

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## Chase

With the move of JCP south to Moore, it will probably be a few years before they would open a store in Norman.  It is too close to their new store.  UNP would probably be better if a mall did not already exist in Norman.  These stores are have a lease and when their lease is up, they might consider the move to UNP.  However, that leaves a vacancy at the mall.

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## BG918

> With the move of JCP south to Moore, it will probably be a few years before they would open a store in Norman.  It is too close to their new store.  UNP would probably be better if a mall did not already exist in Norman.  These stores are have a lease and when their lease is up, they might consider the move to UNP.  However, that leaves a vacancy at the mall.


I would imagine the stores already in the mall are staying there and that the upscale portion of UNP never happens.  If anything they will start building houses and apartments on the land north of Rock Creek up to Tecumseh.  I could see that location being popular for people that want to be close to Target and the other stores/restaurants in UNP but also have direct access to I-35, especially those that live in Norman and commute to OKC.  The few upscale stores that locate in Norman will go in Campus Corner.

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## Chicken In The Rough

"...ha ha upscale thats funny, petco, hallmark, kohls, target..."

UNP is upscale just as Belle Isle Station is upscale. Developers and civic officials have learned to throw that term around in order to get people to agree to allow its construction. I don't trust the lot of them anymore.

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## kevinpate

Based merely on observation of JCP-Sooner traffic levels, there wouldn't seem to be any great need for them to relocate to UNP.  It will be interesting to see it develop, and observe whether the further infill is mostly new shops in town, or others relocating to be closer to the NW quad neighborhoods

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## jbrown84

I don't think Belle Isle Station ever claimed to be upscale.  It has a Wal-Mart for goodness sake.

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## Dekoung

> Why does that really matter? Not everybody likes to pay a fortune for a haircut. I hate to be the break the news to you but, upscale goes out the window when Target is your anchor and the mile of cars is your neighbor to the south.


No need to be a wise guy.  You don't need to break anything to me. If you are familiar with the UNP vision it was to have upscale shops and Life Style Center to east of big box stores.  Names like Nordstrom's , Saks, Williams Sonoma etc were bandied about.  In the kind of development UNP was envisioned to be, the middle range stores like Target would anchor one area and then a higher end store the upscale area.  If you go to Dallas you can see this very kind of development.

I agree the hair salon guy's demographics are faulty.

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## Jesseda

i thought belks was coming to unp what happen? plus a heath market?

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## progressiveboy

> i thought belks was coming to unp what happen? plus a heath market?


 Belks is nothing to write home about. Very bland clothing line and merchandise is very "average" IMHO. One store that comes to mind that is moderate priced and is not your average run of the mill store is Cost Plus Market. This would be a good fit for the time being until all those other upscale retailers decide to come to UNP. It is going to take patience as the economy has really tanked so lots of slow progress.

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## king183

It's really interesting to re-read the posts and articles from the beginning of the thread and compare what we were promised when this project first started and what we're getting now.  Upscale. High End Hotels (there's 1). New Urbanist. Upscale residential. Etc. Instead, it's bland, typical stores that offer very little that we didn't already have. 

It's getting harder to tell the difference between strip-mall Moore and Norman these days.

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## jbrown84

I do think the architecture is a huge step up from 90% of OKC strip centers.  But yes, the selection of stores is nothing special at all.

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## blangtang

> I do think the architecture is a huge step up from 90% of OKC strip centers.  But yes, the selection of stores is nothing special at all.


the architecture seems to be strip-mall-clap-with-bricks, somewhat. like halfway up the buildings, with the tops and backs sporting the generic tan fake stucco styrofoam.

bah.

definitely worthy of development incentives.

bah

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## venture

Naturally it would be been better to just maintain an empty field there and not allow any new development and job creation (at any level) in that part of town.

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## kevinpate

Used to enjoy it when it was a twisting lane through empty fields.  Up near Tecumseh it was dark enough to enjoy stars without needing to go further out.  Not that further out is bad, just that sometimes the time gets limited and a quick star gaze works well enough.

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## mugofbeer

I just hope in the rush to get all the property tax revenue from University Park North, the City of Norman hasn't killed off Sooner Fashion Mall.

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## BG918

> I just hope in the rush to get all the property tax revenue from University Park North, the City of Norman hasn't killed off Sooner Fashion Mall.


I doubt that happens.  There will always be a place for Dillard's and the other stores at Sooner Mall.

I'd rather see commercial businesses that need airport frontage go up on the east side of 24th north of Robinson to the Embassy Suites and then mixed residential with apts. and houses north of Rock Creek.  Keep UNP as the big box shopping center it is mixed with some restaurants and smaller stores, and the Embassy Suites.  Keep Sooner Mall's tenants there and bring the few 'upscale' businesses that would locate in Norman like Williams & Sonoma, Banana Republic, etc. to Campus Corner.  Win win for all parts of Norman.

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## Dekoung

918, IMO you are dreaming about Williams Sonoma and Banana Republic coming to any place in Norman.  If WS should come it won't be CC but UNP although I doubt the demographics justify even that. JMHO  However the CEO of WS is an OU grad so who knows?

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## okyeah

Banana Republic will never open a store on campus corner...campus corner will always be filled with kitschy boutiques like Savvy and Violet Ave.

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## RedDirt717

> The mountain is gone.


This place is going to get nailed by a tornado for disturbing the Indians.

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## kevinpate

Nah, we left Moore pretty much intact.  It's bad for them, but for Norman, it's somewhat comforting to know that Tornados prefer Morons to Normads at a gajillion to one ratio.

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## Jesseda

moore has been cursed when they tore up sacred indian land along a small creek to buildt homes in the 70s, which is now called east hills, and silverleaf addition, but i think now norman is going be be cursed with tornados for tearing down king kongs final resting place (the mountain-hill)

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## Soonerman

Academy is supposed to open up October 23rd according to thier website.

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## oneforone

> moore has been cursed when they tore up sacred indian land along a small creek to buildt homes in the 70s, which is now called east hills, and silverleaf addition, but i think now norman is going be be cursed with tornados for tearing down king kongs final resting place (the mountain-hill)


The hill was man made. It was the remaining piece of the firing range berm made to absorb bullets and other projectiles. It was left over from the old Naval Air Station that consisted of what is now Westheimer Airpark.

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## Jesseda

you mean to tell the the story about king kong being buried there is false!!!!! my dad lied to me  :Frown:

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## lonestarstatesux

> moore has been cursed when they tore up sacred indian land along a small creek to buildt homes in the 70s, which is now called east hills, and silverleaf addition, but i think now norman is going be be cursed with tornados for tearing down king kongs final resting place (the mountain-hill)


Also, on the Moore note, I grew up in Silverleaf, and that place has been tornado free as far as I can remember.  West of the interstate on Janeway on the other hand...

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## Jesseda

maybe because it is sacred inian land even if it has been torn up, who knows, all i know is i lived in east hills along the creek, and my neighbor which lived in east hills since being built told me that story, that the developer unearthed some old indian items along the creek when building

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## Jennifer1334

OK, so here's a thought.  how about a whole foods store in Norman???

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## BG918

> OK, so here's a thought.  how about a whole foods store in Norman???


If OKC with over 500,000 people can't seem to land one I don't have high hopes for Norman until that happens.  I do think it would be a perfect fit in Norman, though not in UNP.  Norman needs another large grocery store option besides Homeland and Wal-Mart/Target.

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## Jesseda

I would enjoy a whole foods store, is the new crest in south okc and may area going to a whole foods market? well i hope one comes out to the south okc,moore-norman area soon, I thought there was plans for the unp to get one?

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## Jesseda

so whats the deal with this.. any more news or store that have opened in the past 6 months? i thought this thing was going to be huge, what happened

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## dirtrider73068

Yea there has been a couple places, academy outdoors, logans, chedders, to name a couple.

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## pearlbluevtx

honestly, I think the economy happened.  It's just hard to make any deals or has been hard over the last 2 years - some stuff is breaking free now from what I hear (even in other segments like energy are popping a bit more right now).  But, I also think they oversold what they could bring/deliver when they started this deal too... but in 2-8 yrs, it might end up having more of the stuff that they had talked about. Time will tell...




> so whats the deal with this.. any more news or store that have opened in the past 6 months? i thought this thing was going to be huge, what happened

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## gman11695

There were a lot of threads going around called "University North Park," but I saw this had the most discussion, so I will just post on this one:

There is a crane out on UNP putting up what appears to be a parking garage just north of Rock Creek, along with steel for an office building?

They are also working on an office building on the north end of the development on 24th and Tecumseh, and the building (the name of the company that will occupy it escapes me) has come along nicely too.

A lot of activity has picked up here and will be interesting to watch. Would love to see this thread get more active with the potentials of this place!

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## Roger S

> There were a lot of threads going around called "University North Park," but I saw this had the most discussion, so I will just post on this one:


Pete renamed the thread with the most current discussion to University Town Center.

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