# Civic Matters > Suburban & Other OK Communities > Tulsa & Suburbs >  In the future will Tulsa have pro sport's?

## dmoor82

I have been looking at NHL and NBA attendance figures for the last 3yrs and some NBA cities are averiging around 13-14k and some NHL cities the same! I guess my question is, will Tulsa with it's sparkling new jewel wich is the BOK center ever host a pro team? maybe 10 yrs down the road? If the nba calculated Tulsa's proximity to OKC couldn't that be done the other way around, maybe for an NHL team!

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## Easy180

Decent shot at some point to nab an NHL team but even that will likely hinge on the success OKC has with supporting the Thunder

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## theparkman81

I think they should move the Talons from af2 to af1, I think I read somewhere last year that they were talking about it, I do like to see a least one pro franchise in Tulsa in the near future, of course OKC is going to have 2 pro sports teams, the Thunder and maybe either MLS or MLB.

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## bluedogok

Tulsa does have pro sports, just not major league as of yet. 

OKC will not get an MLB team, especially as long as the team revenue structure is based off local television revenues as it is currently. It wouldn't make sense to move a team to OKC or even San Antonio. I also don't see any teams moving at the moment  since the Florida Marlins have a new ballpark at the location of the former Orange Bowl and the Twins have one in the works. There will be no expansion especially since just a few years ago they tried to contract the Expos (now Washington Nationals) and the Minnesota Twins. Until MLB gets a more equitable revenue sharing scheme like the NFL, it will always be the case...and I don't see that changing anytime soon, the Yankees and Mets have billion dollar stadiums to pay for.

AF2 is playing this year, the AFL might have a hard time recovering from their year off. Look at how the NHL has struggled to gain back fans since the year off and they were considered a major sport before the lockout, the AFL was not near as entrenched as the NHL was.

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## bombermwc

MLB has all but dissapeared from the radar of Oklahoma. And you won't see it in OKC unless a stadium is built specifically for them....and fat chance on that. Tulsa doesn't have anywhere for them either. Where are they gonna go, TU? They have decreased capacity there so it's about the same as UCO (the OKC equivelant). But they both have the same problem where the resident school also has activities and the students there should have first dibs on their own facilities. Let a pro group get their own place.

MLB - No way. Have you seen how empty a Driller or Redhawks game is? 
NFL - You're kidding right?
NHL - Here's where Tulsa has a chance. It won't be any time soon. But this is where they have an opportunity. NBA would have been another opportunity, but OKC just beat them to the punch. But if NHL continues to decline, they're more likely to kill off teams than let them expand or relocate.

No matter what, Tulsa is going to have to add a couple hundred thousand folks to really be viable for any pro team (if OKC didn't have a pro team). OKC is right on the line where it can work....but only because there's no other game in town/state. I think both cities would have to grow significantly before another pro team would be able to survive here. We're talking OKC being over the 1.5m mark.

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## kevinpate

Didn't part of the 'OKC is NBA ready' argument rely on the proximity of the travel network and population base of Tulsa, Norman, Lawton and even Shawnee and El Reno?

If memory is correct on that, seems it would be exceptionally difficult to base any 1st tier pro sport in state with Tulsa as the epicenter for a long time to come.

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## metro

> I think they should move the Talons from af2 to af1, I think I read somewhere last year that they were talking about it, I do like to see a least one pro franchise in Tulsa in the near future, of course OKC is going to have 2 pro sports teams, the Thunder and maybe either MLS or MLB.


the MLB will be one of the last leagues we'll get. MLS is a possibility though.

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## metro

Bomber, your logic is flawed. Based upon your logic, OKC shouldn't have the Thunder because no one attended Cavalry games.

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## jstanthrnme

a basketball season and a baseball season are completly different.  80 + home games in baseball versus 40+ for basketball, should be considered.  

College sports should be considered too.  His logic balances out when you look at his coments on the NFL.  OU has sold out every home game for 10 years, but we all know an NFL team wouldn't work.

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## LIL_WAYNE_4_PREZIDENT08

Where is the never option???

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## Floyd

MLS.  Tulsa remains a viable candidate for Major League Soccer.

Otherwise, no.

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## Oil Capital

> MLS.  Tulsa remains a viable candidate for Major League Soccer.
> 
> Otherwise, no.


Only in the dreams of certain Tulsans.  The answer is "not in any of our lifetimes".

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## BoulderSooner

> a basketball season and a baseball season are completly different.  80 + home games in baseball versus 40+ for basketball, should be considered.  
> 
> College sports should be considered too.  His logic balances out when you look at his coments on the NFL.  OU has sold out every home game for 10 years, but we all know an NFL team wouldn't work.


we do ... 

a NFL team would 100% work .. they work basicly everywhere you can fill a stadium .. and we would sell out 8 NFL home games a year at a 65k stadium 

this state loves football ... and the NFL revenue model would make it work ..

now would the nfl want a team in oklahoma ... 100% no we don't add anything to their league

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## Oil Capital

> we do ... 
> 
> a NFL team would 100% work .. they work basicly everywhere you can fill a stadium .. and we would sell out 8 NFL home games a year at a 65k stadium 
> 
> this state loves football ... and the NFL revenue model would make it work ..
> 
> now would the nfl want a team in oklahoma ... 100% no we don't add anything to their league


There's a LOT more to running a financially viable NFL team than just filling 65,000 seats for 8 home games.  Corporate sponsorship, corporate purchases of suites, television revenue, etc, etc.

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## bombermwc

And that's where we are going to have a problem. As we saw with the NBA, folks don't look at OK as a TV market big enoug to support major league. Now the fact that NBA and NFL are in mostly different times of the year would help. Also, the fact that there really isn't much football in Tulsa would help. TU might as well not exist outside of their own conference. It's an up and down team with not a lot of local support. Otherwise they wouldn't have been interested in decreasing the seating capacity at the stadium. The MAJOR problem with Tulsa and NFL is proximity of Arkansas U, OU, and OSU. There are 3 Div 1 schools within an hour-hour and a half driving time. AND the TV market of the entire area is less than 3 million (OKC, Tulsa, NW AR). 

Now I can see someone like metro saying that the same crap came up for NBA in OKC. Yes, EXCEPT there were NO other pro franchises in that same area at that time. There isn't competition right now...you bring in another pro team and there would be and guess what, someone would have to go. I don't think you'll get any pro team to want to move in (or get voted approval to move in) until the Tulsa/OKC populations add another million or so. And good luck getting Tulsans to approve building a stadium...they don't have to and don't need to. And that's millions upon millions that they could spend on infrastructure or improving other part of the city.

Don't say I'm not in support of it though. If the situation is right, it would be great for Tulsa. It's the same road OKC is on.....exposure. Show the rest of the country the secret we all knew about already. Tulsa never reached the bottom level OKC did, so it's going to be harder to convince people there is a need to do as drastic of work as we did in OKC. OKC got bad and we know it. Tulsa was able to hold their head out of the water longer, but in the long run, that might have held them back.

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## mireaux

the current economic downturn is the main culprit preventing any league from expanding. any league doesnt want any given market to brush too closely to another closeby market, unless the markets are fully independent of each other (PHI/NYC, Bal/DC, Mil/Chi, etc)

OKC is just now on the forefront with its NBA franchise, all eyes are on OKC to see if it can prove the city is worthy of retaining its team profitably. If that can be met, then its likely Tulsa will be considered for future expansion.

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## dmoor82

Well it looks like the WNBA might be coming to Tulsa to play in the BOK center! I saw a report on KWTV9 last night that Tulsa,Bok officials have been in constant touch with WNBA officials for some time now,and a news conference is scheduled in tulsa about this sometime here pretty soon! I'm not sure when,if some1 knows please post the date!thanx-but the WNBA,arena2,Chl,d-league,double a baseball-Tulsa is becoming a great minor league town-with the BOK and the new drillers stadium being built things look good in Tulsa right now in the sporting world!!!!!

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## Easy180

That's pretty cool news I guess...Can't say I watch it but landing a WNBA team ain't bad at all for Tulsa

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## fromdust

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/art...1_AWNBAf705962
A group of investors from Oklahoma City and Tulsa are expected to have a press conference Wednesday announcing an effort to bring a team from the Women's National Basketball Association to Tulsa, according to a source familiar with the situation.

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## Laramie

> ...MLB - No way. Have you seen how empty a Driller or Redhawks game is? 
> NFL - You're kidding right?
> NHL - Here's where Tulsa has a chance. It won't be any time soon. But this is where they have an opportunity. NBA would have been another opportunity, but OKC just beat them to the punch. But if NHL continues to decline, they're more likely to kill off teams than let them expand or relocate.
> 
> No matter what, Tulsa is going to have to add a couple hundred thousand folks to really be viable for any pro team (if OKC didn't have a pro team). OKC is right on the line where it can work....but only because there's no other game in town/state. I think both cities would have to grow significantly before another pro team would be able to survive here. We're talking OKC being over the 1.5m mark.




*MLB: I agree with your quote; however, I question MLB reasoning because you're using MLB potential in Oklahoma based on minor league sports.  Truly out marketing media area is too small and we wouldn't add any addition footprint to the league's television marketing.

Many people used that same gauge saying that Oklahoma City couldn't support NBA because the Calvary (minor league) had empty seats.

We finished 11th in attendance in the NBA; just ahead of the Boston Celtics.

Link ESPN NBA Attendance:  NBA Attendance - National Basketball Association - ESPN

NFL?

We could support an NFL franchise; however, just like in Phoenix we would have to get permission to use OU or OSU's stadium until a permanent facility could be built here in Oklahoma City.  The chances of that happening are slim and besides it's not in OU's interest to jump start an NFL team in Central Oklahoma which would be competitive for sports dollars.

NHL?  

Maybe 10 years from now if OKC's metro population exceeds 2 million then I think would could support an NHL as well as an NBA franchise.*

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## bluedogok

OKC could support an NFL team but the league would never allow it, all they care about is TV market size to maximize the television revenue. With the current mindset if the NFL brass Jacksonville will probably move to LA in the very near future. When the last expansion happened Houston was chosen over LA because of the stadium situation, Houston could get one quicker and they were still a Top 10 TV market, so that was deemed a more solid option.

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## metro

I can see why the BOK would welcome WNBA, but as for the City as a whole, I think it's stupid, when they have a good chance at landing an NHL team within the next few years. Don't think NHL will consider if WNBA is in town, I know it's apples to oranges, but if they weren't sure of OKC supporting WNBA AND NBA, then no way Tulsa is getting an NHL team with WNBA.

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## dmoor82

> I can see why the BOK would welcome WNBA, but as for the City as a whole, I think it's stupid, when they have a good chance at landing an NHL team within the next few years. Don't think NHL will consider if WNBA is in town, I know it's apples to oranges, but if they weren't sure of OKC supporting WNBA AND NBA, then no way Tulsa is getting an NHL team with WNBA.


Thats what I was thinking about the NHL! they would also draw from OKC's market!I would drive to Tulsa afew times per season too see a NHL team!but you can bet they would be named the Tulsa ????? and not the Oklahoma ????? :Fighting40:

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## rod4soonrs

anyone else find it interesting, 2 guys "investors" are from OKC?

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## bombermwc

I just can't see where everyone is getting the idea that we could support NFL. Do you have any idea how much that would cost? How much more demanding NFL teams are than NBA? Just because we could put butts in the stands, doesn't mean we're going to be able to support the team. We don't have the corporate/population base to support 2 major league groups like that. College sports are too big here, and that means their money goes towards attending those events.

Now you can see with basketball, that it's not 100% of the story. You can like Basketball and not like OU or OSU so you don't go to their games, but you go to a NBA Thunder game. I'll grant that the same can POSSIBLY happen with football. Filling a 65K stadium 8 times a year isn't really that hard. I don't doubt for a second that it would happen. HOWEVER, I still don't think we would have the sponsor base to be able to make up for all the expenses. There are only so many dollars that the Devon's and Chesapeakes of the city want to give out. Plus, that means people would be going to MAJOR football games two days in a row. I bet you absolutely, that people will chose to NOT go to one of the events. Which means someone starts losing money.

Fans in Oklahoma are fair weather football fans. OU and OSU fans a like only really attend when the team is doing well. Do we remember the years of Gibbs/Shnelengerber/etc.? How about the decades of OSU? And now that OSU has promise again, they're having trouble getting people in the door while OU has a queue miles long to get a chance to come in.  I just don't see NFL at all in Oklahoma. Not until our population is MUCH larger and we have a larger corporate base. Cleveland Browns anyone?

I still believe NHL is the best choice...and it will go to Tulsa before OKC. It's season lines up more with Basketball so you will find it hard to convince a team to move to OKC with the Thunder around...not to mention the population/tv market issues of a sport that is already struggling nationally.

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## rod4soonrs

I'd like to see the NHL here in the state, but KC will get a team before we will.

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## Oil Capital

> I'd like to see the NHL here in the state, but KC will get a team before we will.


Yea, and there are others that are far more likely before Tulsa.

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## Laramie

> OKC could support an NFL team but the league would never allow it, all they care about is TV market size to maximize the television revenue. With the current mindset if the NFL brass Jacksonville will probably move to LA in the very near future. When the last expansion happened Houston was chosen over LA because of the stadium situation, Houston could get one quicker and they were still a Top 10 TV market, so that was deemed a more solid option.


*Good call!  You're very knowledgeable about the NFL's situation.  I'm not so sure that Carolina (Charlotte) was a good media choice; however, with Raleigh and Greensboro nearby they do possess a pretty sizeableable market; the NFL looks at a 100-mile radius.*

*Charlotte has the NBA and Raleigh has the NHL and since the NFL arrived in Charlotte it has certainly had its impact on the NBA.*

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## Laramie

> Thats what I was thinking about the NHL! they would also draw from OKC's market!I would drive to Tulsa afew times per season too see a NHL team!but you can bet they would be named the Tulsa ????? and not the Oklahoma ?????


I don't think that Tulsa could pull off what Oklahoma City did using Oklahoma City in its NBA name.

Oklahoma City favors the state's name, Tulsa would have to use "Oklahoma,"
I doubt very seriously that if Tulsa were able to land an NHL franchise the league would approve "Tulsa"  in it's name.

When Oklahoma City bidded for an NHL franchise in 1997, it was later determined that the team was to be called the Oklahoma RedHawks!  Columbus, a larger market was looked favorably upon when Nationwide Papers (Columbus) stepped in an agreed to majority funding of their facility, even though Columbus voters had defeated a measure to build an NHL-ready arena.  

We were one day from obtaining an NHL franchise for Oklahoma City.   Just think, the Oklahoma City Thunder would not have existed today if it wasn't for Columbus securing the NHL's 6th expansion franchise that year.*

...now you know, the rest of the story!*

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## Floyd

Assuming, in a fantasy world, that Tulsa had investors willing to move an NHL franchise, and the league approved the move . . . they would have no say on the name.

David Stern himself pushed "Oklahoma Thunder" but Clay Bennett and Mick Cornett were having none of it.

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## okcpulse

Guys, forget what the Thunder should have been called.  Just forget it and move on.  It was the owner's desire to have Oklahoma City in the name, it was approved by the NBA which means Stern was obviously okay with it, and the rest is history.

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## DM1031

I would drive anywhere in the state to support an Oklahoma NFL team

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## Laramie

> I would drive anywhere in the state to support an Oklahoma NFL team


Amen, my brother!

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## Laramie

> I can see why the BOK would welcome WNBA, but as for the City as a whole, I think it's stupid, when they have a good chance at landing an NHL team within the next few years. Don't think NHL will consider if WNBA is in town, I know it's apples to oranges, but if they weren't sure of OKC supporting WNBA AND NBA, then no way Tulsa is getting an NHL team with WNBA.


One good thing about the WNBA, the season doesn't overlap with the NBA.  

Tulsa should be pushing for an NHL franchise, they would draw from the Oklahoma City base just like the Thunder has drawn from the Tulsa base.

The BOK Center would be among  the smaller NHL arenas.

I know the seating capacity is 17,900 for basketball.  I know that anything under 17,000 is going to be small for an NHL arena

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## bombermwc

I agree that the NHL is the best fit, but the question will still remain on whether or not the league will ever get there. I see NHL working much the same way as NBA did for OKC. Someone from Tulsa is going to have to buy a franchise and get it moved. I'm not sure that there are any team out there for sale right now that would get the approval to move. Remember what just happened with the Coyotes? If they didn't move up to Canada (edmonton is bigger than OKC...and it's freaking Canada for hockey's sake), then Tulsa doesn't stand much of a chance right now. 

Give it a few years and the dynamics of the league can change and a new oppourtunity may arrise. How many people saw the NBA moving here back before Katrina???

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## Laramie

*I don't look for the Predators to survive in Nashville or the Mighty Ducks in Anaheim very long.  The BOK Center in Tulsa can seat up to 17,100 for hockey, for a team to survive in the NHL in Oklahoma; they would probably need to average no less than 14,000.  

I really believe that the NHL could do comparably well in Tulsa as the Thunder is doing in Oklahoma City.

Oklahoma City has had an NBA team for three years now, here are the attendance figure for each of those years:

Source:  [ESPN NBA Attendance]  

NBA Attendance - National Basketball Association - ESPN

2008-09 . . . . . 18,693     Oklahoma City Thunder

2006-07 . . . . . 17,833     New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets

2005-06 . . . . . 18,168     New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets

The fans are getting hungry for more professional sports and anything that comes to Oklahoma City or Tulsa will have State support.*

The renovations of the Ford Center will bring maximum capacity to around 18,150; around the year 2012, I predict that  there will be a new MAPS proposal to build an arena capable of seating 21,500 to be completed around 2014 or 2015 in time for Oklahoma City's 125th  birthday.

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## Watson410

> [B]
> The renovations of the Ford Center will bring maximum capacity to around 18,150; around the year 2012, *I predict that  there will be a new MAPS proposal to build an arena capable of seating 21,500 to be completed around 2014 or 2015 in time for Oklahoma City's 125th  birthday.*


Your joking right? Please tell me your just kidding!

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## Laramie

*My dear Watson.* 

*You should know me by now that I'm an optimist.  I predicted back in 1995 (Oklahoma's Own forum/OKCTalkback forum) that one day Oklahoma City would be awarded an NHL or NBA franchise when everyone-else thought I was joking or out of my mind.  People said that there way no way we could support major league sports.

In 1997 we were in the NHL expansion derby.  Today, we're in our second year of being an NBA city.

Visit the TulsaNow forum, I predicted that the WNBA Seattle Storm would be located there instead of coming to Oklahoma City.  Unfortunatly, PBC sold the team to Seattle investors.

Yes, I'm an optimist and I admit that I do get carried away...

And to answer your question, no, I'm not joking or kidding.  I really feal that we are at least three years aways from winning an NBA championship and this town will be ready to build a bigger arena or find a way to expand the Ford Center.*

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## Watson410

while you may be on the right track, I SERIOUSLY don't see them building a new arena or upgrading the Ford Center 3 years after the current $100 million renovation is complete. The taxpayers would never pay/vote for it! Maybe in 8-10 years but not 3 years.. You could be right about one thing though... I could see them building a Multi-Use Stadium that holds around 60,000ish that could be added onto later if needed. OKC could build the stadium to help lure in a NFL or MLS team, similar to how they did with the FC. Until OKC gets a permenant tenant for the stadium they could use it for many things.. concerts, high school state games, monster truck races, NCAA bowl games, exhibition MLS or NFL, supercross, etc, etc... The list goes on and on for it's possible uses.

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## hoya

I don't think any big league is going to look anywhere in Oklahoma for the next ten to fifteen years.  They want to see how we do with the Thunder.  If we are consistently in the top half of the NBA in attendance, and the Thunder is able to operate profitably for the next 10+ years, then you'll start getting unhappy teams threatening to move here.

Forget MLB, their financial structure makes it virtually impossible for them to move here.

I once read that the NFL could put a team at the North Pole and leave a 65K seat stadium sitting empty and make a profit.  That's how good their TV revenue sharing agreement is.  But the NFL is in such a strong position, and there are so many cities clamoring for a team, we're incredibly far down the list.  They really have no reason to come here.

Major League Soccer or the NHL are the two most likely candidates, and it's no coincidence that those are the leagues in the weakest positions right now.  If some MLS or NHL team gets its panties in a wad in 2020, and fights with its city over a new stadium, then Tulsa might be able to get in a legitimate bid.  But right now, not everyone is even sold on the idea that OKC will be able to support the Thunder.  Tulsa landing a franchise, even after OKC has disproven all the naysayers, will be just as big a task as OKC landing the NBA in the first place.  They'll have to work to show that this isn't a one-league state.  The thought will be "yeah, you guys can support _one_ major league team, but there's a world of difference between having one team and having two".

That, of course, is assuming that Tulsa is in the right place at the right time.  When the time comes for this state to land a second pro team, you can bet that Oklahoma City will be pushing for it just as hard.  Tulsa better not sleep on their opportunity when it does come around, or it might just pass them by.

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## Laramie

> while you may be on the right track, I SERIOUSLY don't see them building *a new arena or upgrading the Ford Center 3 years after the current $100 million renovation is complete.* The taxpayers would never pay/vote for it!* Maybe in 8-10 years but not 3 years...* You could be right about one thing though... I could see them building a Multi-Use Stadium that holds around 60,000ish that could be added onto later if needed. OKC could build the stadium to help lure in a NFL or MLS team, similar to how they did with the FC. Until OKC gets a permenant tenant for the stadium they could use it for many things.. concerts, high school state games, monster truck races, NCAA bowl games, exhibition MLS or NFL, supercross, etc, etc... The list goes on and on for it's possible uses.


Good point *(you brought out something I overlooked..)  We will retire this tax in December*..., I do agree with you!

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## Laramie

> I'd like to see the NHL here in the state, but KC will get a team before we will.



Rod, I saw a report that said the Kansas City market is overextended:

james mirtle: KC: An overextended market? - A hockey journalist's blog

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## theparkman81

> I would drive anywhere in the state to support an Oklahoma NFL team


I think if a NFL team wants to come to Oklahoma, they should built the stadium between OKC and Tulsa, like at Stroud, so both cities and the state will be part of it.

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## rod4soonrs

> Rod, I saw a report that said the Kansas City market is overextended:
> 
> james mirtle: KC: An overextended market? - A hockey journalist's blog


that was in '07

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## rod4soonrs

KC didn't help themselves: 

Islanders One Step Closer to Hiring Moving Vans -- NHL FanHouse

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## Laramie

> I think if a NFL team wants to come to Oklahoma, they should built the stadium between OKC and Tulsa, like at Stroud, so both cities and the state will be part of it.


*That would be a great proposal; however, how would we go about building a stadium?

Oklahoma City could get its half of the stadium built; however, Tulsa would probably be a less willing participant.  I would definitely propose that each city build its own half in Stroud--each with a minimum of 45,000-seats.

If the NFL decides to come to Oklahoma City, we are a bigger market than three current NFL cities including Green Bay. We are larger than Buffalo, Jacksonville & New Orleans.


TV Households:

http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettr..._HH_by_DMA.asp

Population:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_o...tistical_Areas




We could take a page from Phoenix' playbook when they lured the Cardinals from St. Louis.  Use of Gaylord Family Memorial Stadium 84,000-plus until an NFL-ready stadium could be built between Oklahoma City-Tulsa or a stadium could be built in Oklahoma City.  Soon as we finish paying of MAPS III IN 2018I say let take a look at the NFL.*

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## betts

Looks like the WNBA is close to a sure thing:

American Chronicle | Tulsa is Closing in on WNBA

Investors are one step away from bringing a WNBA franchise to Tulsa. 

On Thursday, Tulsa Pro Hoops LLC, led by Oklahoma City investors Bill Cameron and David Box, announced intentions to exercise its option to purchase membership in the WNBA, as first reported on tulsaworld.com. 

The bid will go before the WNBA board of directors, and owners will vote on the proposal. 

Cameron, the company's lead investor, chairman and chief executive officer, said he hopes to hear something by the end of the month.

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